Disclaimer and Introduction to Grant Palmer

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 324

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hi everyone, this is John with a brief disclaimer before you listen to this three part interview with Grant Palmer. First, I want to say that I love Grant Palmer. I think he's amazing and I'm really honored to have him on Mormon Stories for the second time. If you care to please go back and listen to my interview with him about his book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. It's definitely one of the most important interviews I've done on Mormon Stories, but I wanted to do a disclaimer. It's more disclaimer about me than it is about Grant. I've been receiving a lot of feedback on Mormon stories lately that some people feel like Mormon stories has become too negative.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] You know, I'm trying really hard to

John Dehlin [00:00:42] be fair and balanced. And I've brought on several people that would be considered faithful or apologetic. I've brought on, you know, Terrell Givens lately and Brant Gardner and Charles Harrell.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] But for some reason, people feel like

John Dehlin [00:00:57] the tone in Mormon stories has turned negative. And I just want to first say that it is an absolute goal of Mormon Stories to be a safe place for believers and non believers to both listen on the podcast. And the second thing I want to say is that, you know, even though we strive for that, sometimes we're going to interview people who have lost their faith or who ask hard questions about Mormonism. And, you know, that's probably never going to change.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] But, but I guess because the topic

John Dehlin [00:01:25] of this podcast coming up is so sensitive because Grant Palmer has done some writing and research lately on sexual allegations regarding Joseph Smith. And then we're going to talk about the William Law story, which is a really hard story to hear. I just want to let my listeners know that this is going to be a really hard podcast to listen to. If you're faithful, if you have tender ears, if in any way you are sensitive to more tough discussions, I just want to warn you now on this one, just please don't even listen. Just please put it down. This is if you're interested in these types of allegations, if you want to know one man's perspective on Joseph Smith and some of the tougher issues, you

John Dehlin [00:02:12] know, we're going to be exploring it

John Dehlin [00:02:13] and I hope we do a fair and balanced job. But you know, it's difficult to talk about these things. So again, I think I made my point. But please don't listen if you have sensitive ears or if your testimony is fragile, or if you just don't want to hear something negative, because, you know, this is one of the tougher ones. And I promise to do my best to maintain a good balance going forward. So thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy this interview with Grant Palmer. If it's the type of thing you care to listen to.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. As always, I'm your host, John Dehlin, and and as always, I'm very excited to have with me a very special guest. Today we have, I think for the one of the first times ever in the history of Mormon stories, we have a repeat guest, someone who I'm interviewing solo for a second time. This person will be familiar with many of you, and maybe some of you will have never heard of him, but it is the incomparable Grant Palmer. Hello, Grant Palmer. How are you?

Grant Palmer [00:03:44] I'm doing fine, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Thanks for joining us.

Grant Palmer [00:03:48] Thank you. I'm happy to be a part of this.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Yeah. You know, for those. Those of the listeners who have never heard of you, you. You're definitely one of the most popular and most important interviews I've ever done. I interviewed you, I don't know, what, four years ago, maybe? Does that sound about right? Four years?

Grant Palmer [00:04:08] That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Two thousand and four years. And what happened was, you know, your book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, was. Was definitely one of the most important books that I found in. I'd say 2000. 2000. Well, let's see. It probably would have been 2002. 2003. When did that book come out?

Grant Palmer [00:04:27] 2002.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Yeah. So around 2002, 2003, I found your book, and I was trying to figure this whole Mormon thing out, and I read your book and your book, basically the insider's view. For those who don't know, an insider's view sort of explains Joseph Smith and his time period, you know, the origins of Mormonism in a. In a. I'd say a secular way. That makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying it's true. I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm just saying that just like Fawn Brody's book, no man Knows My History. What Grant Pomber does better than almost anybody is he pieces together a historical narrative that if you don't accept the church's absolute truth claims. And if you're skeptical about the divinity of Mormonism, Grant pieces together kind of a secular view of Joseph Smith and of the origins of the Book of Mormon that really resonates with a lot of people. And I've mentioned it in even recent podcasts with Brent Gardner and with Terrell Givens and others. But that book, An Insider's View, is probably what, one of signature books, bestselling books of all time, Is that right?

Grant Palmer [00:05:42] Yes, that's my understanding.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Yeah. And part of what makes it, you know, that book so interesting, and again, we're rehashing a little bit, is that Grant was a seminary institute teacher for how many years?

Grant Palmer [00:05:55] 34.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] Yeah. And that's where the title and insider's view comes from. Now, now, we're not going to rehash all of Grant's story, but on this podcast link we are going to refer to that interview. It's like a five hour interview. Every minute is worth your time. But it's just a fascinating story of why a 34 year seminary institute teacher would ultimately come to the conclusion that the church wasn't what it claims to be. Now, I'll just say on Mormon stories, you know, what differentiates us from everybody else maybe is that we allow, we want to allow for room for both belief and disbelief. And so we're not here to tell people, you know, the church is true or false, but we are here to explore Mormonism, to get the facts and the evidence out on the table so that people can make an informed decision. And so that's what this is about. Now why are we bringing Grant back on? Well, here's a little bit of background. I have started, you know, my foundation, the Open Stories foundation, and I have started a new project is it's called why People Leave the LDS Church or why Mormons Leave. You can access it@why Mormonsleave.com or org. And this, the impetus of this, it's been something we've wanted to do for quite a long time, but we want to get out there. Just like MormonThink, the website has a public record for why people are leaving the church because we feel like there's a lot of pain and damage that is, that is being experienced by a lot of people because of this situation where people for various reasons decide that they can no longer stay in the LDS Church and marriages are being broken up, people are being driven to depression and anxiety disorders and suicide. And it's a really serious, traumatic thing. And so regardless of what you believe about the church. And regardless of where you end up, we believe it's really important to get all these issues out on the table, both so that people can be informed consumers of what they engage in from a religious perspective, but also we want to create space within Mormon culture for disbelievers with no other reason than because we find it unacceptable the social and emotional and psychological and cultural costs that people are experiencing by deciding that the church isn't. It doesn't work for them again. But we try and do this in a way that is not hostile to those who also believe. And many of the participants on our board and participants in Mormon stories do maintain beliefs of some sort, whether traditional or somewhat non traditional. But having given you that background, we've done a few interviews already on the subject of why people leave. And to today we're bringing Grant back for two main reasons. Number one is Grant has done a little bit more history and writing on why people leave the church. And specifically, there are two areas that we're going to cover in the first segment of this podcast. Basically, Grant's done some research on some of the sexual allegations against Joseph Smith in his early years, let's say in the, I don't know, 1830 to 1835. Is that kind of the time frame?

Grant Palmer [00:09:23] 29 to 35.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] Okay, 29 to 35. And again, you know, it's just to put the facts or the evidence out there. If somebody wants to create a rebuttal, they can. But we think it's important to explore that information. And also, Grant's written a paper, a very good paper on William Law. And many of you may not have heard of William Law, but William Law was a very prominent and important member of the church in Nauvoo. I think he was a member of the First Presidency, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right, Grant?

Grant Palmer [00:09:56] Yes. He was second counselor in the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:10:00] And probably the most credible, important person to have ever left the First Presidency of the Church.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Right. And we're going to talk about why he left, because it turns out that a lot of the reasons why William Law left are the reasons that people leave today. And we want to tell that story. William Law has probably been either ignored or defamed in the history of LDS history. Is that right, Grant?

Grant Palmer [00:10:25] Yes. What we're finding is that, you know, I grew up thinking he was a horrible person and some of those early apostates, and we're finding out that maybe we were a little bit one sided on that. It turns out that the Bad guys seem to be more of the good guys. Some of the good guys seem to be more of the bad guys, if that makes any sense.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Yeah, so we're going to explore that, and then finally we're going to do an update on where Grant is today. You know, the way that we left it was Grant was disfellowshipped from the LDS Church for writing this book. An insider's view. That's the way we left it. And I don't mean to keep people in suspense, but there's been a few developments there. And so we're going to talk about that in the second half half of the show and just end with Grant's perspective on the situation the church is in now and what needs to be done about it. How does that sound, Grant? Does that sound like an okay.

Grant Palmer [00:11:23] Yes, I think Structure. Yep. Let's go.

Overview of Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Okay, so. So the first thing I want to refer listeners to is an article that can be found on the MormonThink website. If you go to mormonthink.com Grant Palmer.htm and I'll have a link to this up on Mormon Stories, you're going to find that Grant Palmer actually has a webpage on the Mormon Think website. And on that website, there is actually an article that you released, what, a few months ago? What did you release?

John Dehlin [00:11:55] That.

Grant Palmer [00:11:57] The William Law.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] No, the sexual allegations against.

Grant Palmer [00:11:59] Oh, I wrote this about 10 years ago. I just put it up on the 22nd of December of this last year.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Okay, so it's something you wrote. Wow. How many years ago?

Grant Palmer [00:12:09] Oh, 10.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Okay, 10 years ago. And it's on the website. It basically is called Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith. We'll also put a link to that up on the. The blog page, but we're going to kind of go chronologically because I think this is something that we can talk about that leads to the William Law stuff. Doesn't that make sense, Grant?

Grant Palmer [00:12:29] Yes. Yes, it does. In fact, it definitely does. By the way, I. The sexual allegation, I didn't write that 10 years ago. It's more like five or six years ago. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] No, that's. That's fine. You know, not a problem at all. So. So we'll go chronologically. And so let's begin. You know, I want to be clear that the purpose of why I'm interviewing you is not to drag Joseph Smith or his name through the mud. It's not even to take people's faith away. But we're living this reality where you can't ignore history. You can't ignore Evidence and facts. And that's, that's sort of pillar one, it's there. And then number two is so many people have engaged in Mormonism either as converts or as members of record that have sort of been raised believing one narrative, one, one version of the church's history and it's safe to say that it's sort of a correlated, maybe even whitewashed is not too impolite of a term to describe it. But then, but then what happens is they Google or they're researching for Sunday school lessons or they talk to a, or they watch an episode on south park or Bill Maher or whatever they do and inevitably people are stumbling on the factual history. And my view is it does no one any good to have ignorance about the facts, the historical facts. And it does no one any good to hide or ignore what these facts are because whether if the church is true then, then you have nothing to fear about the facts and God's will is going to prevail. And you know, it's better that we just know reality than ignore it. And if the church isn't what it claims to be. I kind of like what Gordon B. Hinckley said, or even what J. Reuben Clark I believe said, which is that, you know, if the church is true, you know, it can withstand scrutiny. If it's not true, it deserves to be, you know, punished or whatever, you know, the exact quote is. But that's sort of the spirit of what we're talking about. Believers have nothing to fear. Disbelievers, you know, deserve to have the record be made straight. And so that's why we're talking about this, not to criticize Joseph Smith. So having said that, Grant, I'm sure you can imagine that talking about sexual allegations of Joseph Smith would be shocking and somewhat, you know, disturbing and sensitive for believers. So how can we start talking about this in a way that, that is in the proper spirit? Do you have any early insights on how we can go about this?

Evaluating the Sources and Their Credibility

Grant Palmer [00:15:12] I think my conclusion to this short paper might be helpful. I do not draw any hardened fast claims about these six allegations in a three state period over a five year period. I, I'm just stating what I found. I, I let the reader or the listener evaluate these value allegations for themselves. But I would think that Joseph Smith must have been mortified to be accused of sexual improper conduct by at least four, four women during a six year period in three different states, that being New York, Bainbridge, New York, Harmony Pennsy Penny and Kirtland, Ohio. So this, this goes up from 18 29, 28, 29 to 35. And like I say, I, I don't draw any fast conclusions. But if it were me that was being charged by four, four or five women from three different states in six years, I think I would be mortified.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Right. And, and I guess, I guess what I'm okay, so, so we're going to dig into that but at the outset I just want to, I want to make sure that we understand the sources for your research. And here's where I'm getting at. There are, you know, there are different sources for where we can pull this information from and what I want to make sure to the extent that we can. So, so let me lay out some of the possible sources. So one would be, you know, Joseph's own admissions or journals. Another would be, you know, journals or articles written that are published by the Church. Another would be journals or history written by people who are close to Joseph who were part of, you know, loyal, committed members to the church who were always committed. Then there's going to be people who once were committed but in some way fell away. And then there's going to be this last case and I saw a tiny bit of this in your references. There's going to be this last case where maybe there were people who had an axe to grind against Joseph or the church and they went around on almost like a fishing expedition trying to drum up accusations in sort of a, just you could even say an anti Mormon way. And so what I wanted. Can you give us a sense just overall, you know, we're not going to go into every source but can you give us a sense for the resources that you base these accusations? Where do they mostly come from or what's the distribution of those different types of sources? Do you have a sense?

Grant Palmer [00:17:59] It varies. When Joseph is in Harmony, Pennsylvania in 1828, 29 translating the book of Mormon, some of the Emma Smith cousins, the Lewis's, just they make this accusation that Joseph has been familiar with 16 year old Eliza Winters and who's a very good friend of Emma Smith's. And, and then some of the neighbors say a few things and so it's kind of neighborhood stuff. It's Emma's relatives in this case the Lewis's, that that's the source for that one. For example, as for the Miriam and Josiah, Josiah stole, helped worked in a silver mine with Joseph Smith and his father and others. They were in partnership together in 1825, 26 and the source of that comes from 12, two of 12 witnesses which were called at the trial of Joseph on the 30th of June, 1830. And so that's the court record on that one. That's when Josiah's daughters, Miriam and. And what's. They're 18 and 20, respectively. There have been rumors against him and so forth. And so the prosecutor, I think, based on what's happened to Eliza Winters in 1820, 28, 29, now it's 1830. And he's heard about these, even though ones in Harmony, Pennsylvania, ones in Bainbridge, those communities aren't that far apart. And I think the witnesses are being asked by the prosecutor the moral character of Joseph Smith. These are the two stole girls and Miriam and Rhoda. That was their names. And I think it is a fishing expedition in this case because nothing really came of it. But the prosecutor's trying to do his job and find out, you know, what kind of a person Joseph is. And. But. But there is. There is a. An accusation there, at least by the prosecutor. That's okay. Based on what he's heard.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Okay. So I'm sorry. So before we dig into the actual stories, just let's back up and one more time, just. It sounds like what you said is some of this is court documents. Some of this is trials that were held.

Grant Palmer [00:20:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Okay. So some of it's that what are.

Grant Palmer [00:20:51] Okay. Some of its court documents, some of it is Joseph Smith's history. Some of it is Emma's relatives. Some of it comes from Martin Harris, Benjamin Winchester, who is a close friend of Joseph Smith. Some comes from Luke Johnson, who was later one of the original 12 apostles. Some of this comes from William McClellan in his conversations with Emma Smith. Some of this comes from

John Dehlin [00:21:22] Oliver Cowdery.

Grant Palmer [00:21:24] Yeah, Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith, if you will, through McClellan.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] Okay. Okay. And then, you know, tell me, do you know anything about the book Mormonism Unveiled?

Grant Palmer [00:21:36] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] Like, is that. Like, is that a credible source in your mind, or is that like an ax to grind, you know, yellow journalistic hit job?

Grant Palmer [00:21:46] You have to be really careful with how you use Mormonism. Unveil, for example, affidavits would say, well, the Smiths were lazy. Well, you know, they were only renting the home, and they didn't. They kind of let it go. And renters don't usually put a lot of resources into a rental once they lost that home. And so people would look at their house when they go by and it may be in a little rundown and say, gee, they're lazy. When they didn't know the, you know, they didn't realize that they're just renters after they lost that house, for example. And people say, well, people, we saw them drunk. Almost all of our ancestors drank in those early years. So you have to be very careful about using a source like Mormonism Unveiled. I tried to be very careful in using it.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] So it sounds like they don't. They, they don't always, they, they don't always take a more charitable or neutral stance. They'll more quickly jump to an unfavorable interpretation.

Grant Palmer [00:22:50] I think that's true.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] And that's what, that's probably what apologists would say about you or Fon Brody. Right. I mean, it, some of that depends on your perspective on whether you, whether you believe Joseph was God's servant or whether you believe he was a fraud. I mean, you know, you're going to, you're going to approach him as you write a history differently, right?

Grant Palmer [00:23:09] Well, you do it as you see it. And, you know, I mean, apologists throw the term anti Mormon around rather loosely. I did a little paper at Sunstone Symposium on that. What is anti Mormon? And if you go back to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's definition, anti Mormon is essentially anything that's not true. Everything else is Mormon because they embraced all truth wherever it's found. That type of idea, we've, we've moved away from that. But I, I think that, I think members of the church would do well to get back to that definition.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Okay. Okay. So it's murky and sometimes, you know, all I can say is, like, Fawn Brody was once derided as anti Mormon, and now if I read Rough Stone Rolling, what a third of his references are Fon Brody's book. I mean, I'm guessing, but clearly she's been embraced as a credible historian, regardless of whatever slant she had. Right?

Grant Palmer [00:24:07] Well, now, yes, now she is. But back when it came out in 45, you know, it was this scurrilous rag, you know, and she'll be, you know, I think George Albert Smith from the pulpit said that she would go down in history as a, you know, as a Judas, as a traitor, and very harsh words for her.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Okay, okay. So I guess truth and goodness and even scholarship and history is sort of in some ways in the eye of the beholder. And I guess that's why it's important for there to be an open discussion and footnotes and references so that, I guess, readers can go and dig into these sources and find out what they want to decide is credible versus not credible, right?

Grant Palmer [00:24:55] Precisely. That's what's needed.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] And if you, if you had to characterize your approach to writing both of these pieces and your book, you know, how do you, how do you describe your approach? If someone were to say to you, grant Palmer has decided beforehand, just like fair, that he has a bias. His bias is that Joseph Smith is a fraud. And so you can't trust his history because he's just got an axe to grind. How would you, just to set up what we're going to explore, how would, how would you respond to that?

Grant Palmer [00:25:30] Well, I've already responded to the sexual allegations paper. I don't draw any hard and fast conclusions on this. I just say the reader can evaluate the facts. I don't tell a reader how to think. In this case, all I say is that I would be mortified, and I'm sure any person would if they were accused over a six year period of having unwanted sexual advances towards four or five teenage girls in three different states. That is a mortifying kind of thing. And as for the William Law paper, I don't say why William and Jane Law left the church in 1844. They do.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Right, right. And so you're just trying.

Grant Palmer [00:26:19] I'm actually reporting what they are, what, what drove them out of the church. I mean, I was very interested because here's a person who was intimate with Joseph Smith on a daily basis. They lived a half a block apart in Nauvoo. He's in the first presidency from 41 up through early 44, and he leaves the church. We've never had anyone do that. I'd like to say, well, why, why did they leave? And so I started digging and, and so I'm not guiding the reader there. They can take or leave. If they want to think that the laws are lying, fine. If they want to think they're credible, fine. I'm just giving what I found and the reasons they left.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] And so do you feel like you try to, to be meticulous in, in the sources? Do you try and make sure that your sources are credible? You know, is there a source, Would you ever, for example, rule out a source that maybe supported your view on Joseph but that you didn't think would be credible? In other words, to what extent do you try and assemble credible sources versus, you know, National Enquirer yellow journalistic type of non credible sources?

Grant Palmer [00:27:29] Well, it. Okay, that's a good question. The laws. I'm quoting a lot from the laws because I'm giving their reasons for leaving, first of all.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:27:39] And secondly, if I only have one source on something, I generally don't use it.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:27:46] And if. And if one of them is kind of a unsavory source, I try to just use that source to back up a more credible source, just as a backup, not as the leading reference for that point.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] So as far as you're concerned, you won't. You're not just. You wouldn't say that. You're just looking for anything to discredit somebody. You want to make sure that A, your sources are at least somewhat credible, and B, that you use. You have at least two sources to corroborate some type of point. Is that what you're saying?

Grant Palmer [00:28:24] That's what I always try to do. And if I've got more, even better.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] And just as a way to refer to your past work so far, based on your feedback about your book, an insider's view on Mormon origins, do you feel like the history that you've reported there, not your interpretations of it, but the sources and the general claims, historical claims that you've outlined there, have withstood the test of time so far?

Grant Palmer [00:28:54] Yeah, I think so. But again, everyone has to decide that for themselves. It's. It. There's a tendency in people to. To want to talk to you if they agree with you.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:29:06] Not if they disagree with you. I've probably talked to 1500 people. That's not an exaggeration. Emails, lunches.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:29:15] Telephone calls, whatever. Mail, snail mail. And. And they're overwhelmingly supportive. I, of course, have some. Had some critics. And. And that's fine. You know, I mean, I didn't think they talked about my book much. They talked, try to find stuff on me, and they don't have much on me.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] Right. That's the Fair Farms kind of people.

Grant Palmer [00:29:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] But overall, the, the vibe that you've gotten from your book is that the. His. The history stands, whether. Whether you want to make the same conclusions. You haven't, you haven't noted much critique around the. The. His history, the actual credibility in terms of the history of your book, Is that right?

Grant Palmer [00:30:01] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Okay.

Early Trials and the Fanny Alger Relationship

John Dehlin [00:30:02] All right, so let's dive in. Now. I know, I know you already started, but let's just back up before we start talking about interpretations. So when's. When's the first sexual allegation that,

John Dehlin [00:30:18] that

John Dehlin [00:30:18] you report and, and give some background about it so we can sort of maybe even feel for the story of

John Dehlin [00:30:25] what was going on, if you're able.

Grant Palmer [00:30:27] Well, this is a very brief paper. We don't know much about Eliza Winters. Again, the accusation comes in 25, 28, 29. When, when Joseph's in Harmony.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Right. Before. So this is before he, this is while he was producing the Book of Mormon. Yes, before it was released and before the church was founded. But after the first vision and after the Moroni visits. Right?

Grant Palmer [00:30:52] Oh, very much after.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:30:54] They're down in harmony, they're translating the Book of Mormon and Martin Harris is

John Dehlin [00:30:59] the scribe and, and in harmony, he's living with, with Emma's parents. Yeah, he's living with Emma's parents. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:31:06] Isaac Hale.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Okay, all right, I'm with you.

Grant Palmer [00:31:10] And you know, I mean you can't get into every little detail here, but some of the neighbors talk about the relationship between Joseph and the 16 year old girl named Eliza Winters.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:31:26] He may have, he may have been part of the reasons why Joseph left Harmony in haste is because of these, these allegations. That's. But again, I don't go much further now. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] Right. Or we'd be speculating. Yeah, he was married during the time the accusations come.

Grant Palmer [00:31:45] Oh, Joseph. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:31:47] Definitely married. He's been married since January 27. Now it's 28, 29.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:31:53] And Hiale Lewis not only accused Joseph at the time 28 and 29, but he did it 50 years later. He still held that view. So that's about what we know about that. And so that information that came out of Harmony, Pennsylvania kind of travels over and becomes a part of the June 1830 Bainbridge, New York trial.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:32:19] And that's when the Parse prosecutor has two of his 12 witnesses are character witnesses about the, the stole girls. And he's probing their moral character and, and the relationship with Smith. You know how prosecutors are. They're always looking for something to discredit, to discredit their, the person.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Now as I understand it, nothing comes of that.

Grant Palmer [00:32:47] Nothing comes of those two. So that I just say he's accused of that. Or, or they're on a fishing expedition is probably more accurate.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] And did they, did they what did they testify? Do we know?

Grant Palmer [00:32:58] No, we don't know.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] We just know that they were called. And these are, are these the daughters of Josiah stole? Was he the one who charted the, the silver expedition into.

Grant Palmer [00:33:08] Yes, yes he was. And in Joseph, these are Joseph's own world. Both girls quote, were severely examined, particularly as to my behavior towards them both in public and in private. That's Joseph Smith's own words. You find that in the history of the church or Dean Jesse's papers. So.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:33:29] And nothing came of those accusations. But I'm Just saying that's. That's part of the sexual allegations that are arising in the life of Joseph Smith before polygamy is going on. You see?

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] All right.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] So. So we've got those early two trials.

Grant Palmer [00:33:49] Yeah. And then we have three in Kirtland, Ohio.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:33:53] And these. The first of the three is. He's living at the John Johnson home. That's Luke and Lyman Johnson. They later become apostles, the first quorum of the. Of the 12 under Joseph Smith. And he. There. There's some question about him making sexual advances toward their younger sister, who is Nancy Mirinda Johnson. And the next thing we know is that in the middle of the night, at least four or five people here, including Eli Johnson, and he is the uncle of young Miranda. Nancy Miranda, excuse me, Johnson, they think that some sexual things are going on there. And I don't know how. I don't defend it, but they pull Joseph out in the middle of the night, and they have a Dr. Dennis in there, and he is there for the purpose of a castration of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] Now, Now, I. I've heard this story. I even heard it growing up. But the funny thing is, you know, you hear this story about them breaking into where Joseph is, you know, ripping him out of his home. Was. Was this the same instance where they tried to force something into his mouth and.

Grant Palmer [00:35:28] Yes. And see, Dr. Denison, he saw him spread out naked on a. On a board. And. And they. And he says, I. I just can't. I can't castrate him. I know I came here for that purpose, but I can't do it. So then they stuck a paddle down his mouth with tar and then put feathers on him. And. And then they picked off the tar. And the next morning, he was. He was giving a sermon and so forth. But they've never really gone into what's going on. The only thing that struck me about this is they're upset for two reasons. One is the sexual advances. And two, Eli Johnson in particular is upset that they're trying to take away his brother. Joseph Smith's trying to get the Johnson property in that kind of a communal thing, you know, a law of consecration or something back there in Ohio. The only thing that struck me about this is crimes of passion are usually fairly immediate. If this was just a financial thing, they certainly could have waited until the next day to, you know, bring charges. But when they pull you out of your bed in the middle, at the middle of the night, it says that's a quote. That's probably. They're Concerned more about the crime of passion that is protecting his niece.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Right. And so when I. When I've heard this story told in a church context, somehow there's no reference to anything sexual. And you get the impression that it was just people who wanted. Wished the church ill, that they were envious of Joseph or were under Satan's control. And. And so Joseph was being dragged out and tarred and feathered as almost a martyr for the cause of his religious courage, like Peter or one of the apostles of old. Have you ever heard the story told in that context?

Grant Palmer [00:37:21] Oh, absolutely. In fact, the names of those that are here, we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. At least five of these men, most of them have been recently left the church and they, you know it. Apostatized from the church. But the person who's reporting this information are not any of those five. It's Luke Johnson. It's the brother of Nancy Miranda Johnson. Okay, right. That, that's what, that's where I'm getting my information here. He was later to go on as an apostle. He was not married yet. He was living in the home. He seemed to know what was going on. He saw what happened, he was there. And so that's the source of it.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Now, isn't that interesting that he would go on to become an apostle, him

Grant Palmer [00:38:06] and his brother Lyman?

John Dehlin [00:38:07] How in the world is that possible?

Grant Palmer [00:38:11] Well, that's a good question. Let's see. When did he write it? I have to see. I think he wrote it. Let's see.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] Wrote what?

Grant Palmer [00:38:20] Wrote this piece of information I'm giving you about Nancy Miranda.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] It says. Well, it says March 1832 is when the event happened.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] Oh, you say when he actually wrote the.

Grant Palmer [00:38:32] Yeah, it looks. The history of Luke Johnson. Let's see. I'm not. It looks like 1864 is when he's writing it up.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] Oh, okay.

Grant Palmer [00:38:42] And by then, Luke has left the church. He and his brother Lyman. Luke and lyman Johnson were two of the original 12 apostles. They both left the church and Lyman never came back. Luke did. And he was a bishop out here in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Yeah. So this is this crazy dynamic that apologists would seize on. They would say, well, I guess. I guess that history swings both ways because on the one hand you would, you know, a critic or an apologist could say, oh, well, Luke Johnson had apostatized, so of course, he was just telling a lie.

Grant Palmer [00:39:21] But that's later.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Right, right.

Grant Palmer [00:39:23] He's. He. He's not made an apostle to 1835. He apostasizes in 1838. 39.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:39:33] Comes west.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:39:35] Rejoins the church, becomes a bishop. And that's when he's writing this material up.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Right. But it is weird that he would even stay affiliated with the church after his sister or daughter had been. Had been potentially assaulted by Joseph, is that right?

Grant Palmer [00:39:52] Well, I don't know what he thought about the whole incident. He's just telling what happened.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Yeah. So. So we can't really fill in the blanks. We're speculating. It sounds like the only point you're making is that there seems to be a trail of sexual allegations against Joseph.

Grant Palmer [00:40:08] Exactly. Then we move on to the next one. There's a Ms. Hill. And. And let's see, let's see. It's a little different approach to this paper than I'm used to.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] No, it's okay.

Grant Palmer [00:40:28] Discussing. That's okay. Anyway, there was a Ms. Hill. This comes from Benjamin F. Winchester, a close friend of Joseph Smith in Kirtland. And he said there was accusations of licentious conduct against Joseph Smith was discussed, especially among the women with two or three families. Winchester says Joseph scandalous relations with two or three families. And this was in the year 1833. So if the. Nancy Mirinda Johnson's 32, we're now into a 33. A servant girl living in Joseph's house. All we know her by is a Ms. Hill. And then that improper procedures were made. And that comes from. From reported by Benjamin F. Winchester, a true blue Mormon. And then we get to a third one and this one involves one that a lot of people have found, have heard of. And this is a.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] What do you mean a third? When you say a third, what do

Grant Palmer [00:41:31] you mean a third? A third accusation in Kirtland.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Okay. Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:41:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:41:38] And.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] And fifth overall, right?

Grant Palmer [00:41:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] And who's that? Is that Fanny Alger?

Grant Palmer [00:41:46] Yes, that's Fanny Alger.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Tell us about that really quick.

Grant Palmer [00:41:50] Well, that's briefly. That's a story where Emma actually finds a 16 year old fanny Alger and Joseph Smith in a barn and she looks through one of the cracks and witnessed the transaction is the way she calls it.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Okay, so this is from Emma's own.

Grant Palmer [00:42:09] No, this is emma telling William McClellan about this incident in 1847. Now he's out of the church. He was an apostle, he left. But Oliver Cowdery was with Emma when this transaction took place. And he was. He later brought this up, both his brother and a couple of other people. And this was used at Cowdery's own court trial for accusing Joseph Smith of committing adultery. So we have references here from Cowdery, interviews of emma by William McClellan. Those are the sources there.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] What do you mean? Oliver was with.

Grant Palmer [00:42:55] She was with Emmon and witnessed the scene.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Oh.

Grant Palmer [00:42:59] Of Joseph in the barn with Fanny Alger.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Yeah. And this is something that a lot of people don't realize. We talk about Oliver Cowdery leaving the church. Right. Or being excommunicated. What do we know about why Oliver or the situation around Oliver's excommunication?

Grant Palmer [00:43:20] Well, he was accused with nine different things. That's one of which was that he had accused Joseph Smith of adultery with this, this nasty, dirty little affair with Fanny Alger. That's what we're talking about here. That was one of the nine charges. The other eight are in the history of the church. Joseph was very unhappy with Oliver because he had sold his property, his lots that were in Jackson County, Missouri, when Joseph told, hang on to him, we're coming back there. And it's an act of lack of faith to sell them when they moved on. You see?

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Right. And so, and so it sounds like Joseph and Oliver had a falling out in 1838, partly around Oliver accusing Joseph of adultery. Now, a couple interesting things about this. If you go to the church's own website, familyhistory.org or whatever it is these days, it lists Fanny Alger as Joseph's first wife. Is that right?

Reasons Fanny Alger Was Not a Plural Wife

Grant Palmer [00:44:21] Well, it does. And I, I, that's one area that I, I question whether that's the case because Todd Compton is saying that Fanny Alger was Joseph Smith's first plural wife. But I write a couple of things. Let me just list them to make a compelling case that Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger were married. Here's. Here's something considerable. One, there's no marriage license or record of the ordinance. Two, there's no revelation authorizing polygamous marriages until 1840. Now, the apologists like to say, well, he, he knew about as early as 1831, but that was the Mary Lamanites, and that would make them white and delightsome. The revelation in 1840 was a very different thing. And I don't think the apologists can hang on to 31 revelation.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] I'm going to pause you just because what you just said is something most Mormons don't know, and that's that that Joseph would have whatever he did about white and delights them. Most Mormons don't even know that. So can you just talk a tiny bit more about what, what that revelation might have been or what that document or what the Source might be for that. 1831.

Grant Palmer [00:45:39] Well, it's in the footnotes and I, I just. It gets rather long, frankly. John, I.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] No, that's fine, that's fine. But, but Joseph basically seems to have said that or indicated in some way that polygamy was okay.

Grant Palmer [00:45:55] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] With the purpose, in the context of, of doing missionary work with the Indians on the frontier.

Grant Palmer [00:46:04] That's when the revelation supposedly came in. 31. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:46:08] They're out on a laymanite mission. They don't have much success. Martin Harris is there and he's just really excited that he can marry a laymanite woman and raise up a white seed because he doesn't have a very good marriage with Lucy Harris anyway. And he's pretty eager about doing this. You say?

John Dehlin [00:46:30] Yeah, yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:46:31] And I get into that in the footnotes here.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] And this, in this jives with what Spencer V. Kimball used to always say about the Lamanites.

Grant Palmer [00:46:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] That, that, that through our intermingling with them that they will, you know, become

John Dehlin [00:46:42] white or in delights them.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:46:44] Well, that's how Joseph Smith thought it was going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:46:47] He usually likes to be a part of fulfilling his own prophecies. The Book of Mormon says they'll become white and delight some. He's going to help that along.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Got it, got it. Okay. So you were, you were listing some of the reasons why we may not.

Grant Palmer [00:47:02] Okay. No marriage license or record of the ordinance.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:47:06] No revelation orthora authorizing marriages until 1840.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:47:12] Three, Joseph Smith did not claim the power to bind on earth and seal in the heavens eternally until Elijah appeared to himself and cowdery in the Kirtland Temple on the 3rd of April, 1836, perhaps a year. Perhaps a year after Alger.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:47:30] Supposedly married. And that last one is the big one to me.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] So the ceiling power hadn't been given yet.

Grant Palmer [00:47:37] No, it didn't until he appeared. Elijah appeared in April 3, 1836. And then the fourth reason Fannie left the state quickly rejected counsel by marrying a non Mormon in Indiana. Something one would not expect from a Mormon polygamous wife.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] Okay. And to this day we don't have any real evidence that there's.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] That.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] That there was a temple or a ceiling, you know, sealed attempt, a plural marriage.

Grant Palmer [00:48:04] Oh, no, I think all four of those regions are.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:48:08] Are caused to pause. Now, I don't know how people handle that. I'm just stating that on this one point I would, I would definitely question Todd Compton's conclusion that there was a. That she was his first plural wife. I. I just don't. I think that's a rush to judgment.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Yeah. And something that just begs the question is why wasn't Oliver in on it? Why would Oliver accuse him of adultery? If Oliver was still in the first presidency and Joseph's closest. One of Joseph's closest collaborators, you would think that Joseph would have said, hey, you know what? I've got this revelation and this phenylger thing you just don't understand.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] But. But.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] But clearly Oliver wasn't part of that, right?

Grant Palmer [00:48:56] Well, no, there's nothing said. He first learned of it, as did Emma, by looking through the barn.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] Now. Now, of course, you would wonder why. Why Oliver eventually stayed in the church.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Right. I mean, he.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] He may have left, but he came back.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:49:13] Well, that's another story. And that's. It's a. It's a very interesting one and one that is not known by hardly anyone, but we don't. That would take us on a sidebar that we'd never recover from.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Okay, but. But you're saying. But he did come back, right? Are you saying that he. He may not have fully believed or.

Grant Palmer [00:49:33] He came back and he believed in the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page was his nurse. He saw him die. He took care of him in the last remaining months. He was dying of consumption or tuberculosis in 1850. And. And he's. His last statement is he. He doesn't really believe in polygamy. He doesn't believe. He doesn't believe in the. In the Doctrine Covenants, quite like.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:50:07] A typical Mormon would today. Right, but that's another topic. One last quote this. William McClellan interviewed Emma Smith on 20 28th of August, 1847. Now this. There was a short period after Joseph died before Emma went into denial about Joseph practicing polygamy. And she was quite upfront with people. We have two or three people who interviewed her during that time. The most interesting, I think, is. Is William McClellan. And McClellan, he's interviewing Emma and he says, now, Emma, I don't want to offend you in any way, but I've heard some stories about Joseph and I'd like you to confirm or deny. You don't have to repeat them, but just tell me if they're correct. And he. She confirmed the Ms. Hill story. She also confirmed. Confirmed the Fanny Alger story because she was there.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:51:12] And then this is what he wrote in his notebook. Mrs. Joseph Smith, the widow of the prophet, told me in 1847 that she knew her husband, the prophet, practiced Both adultery and polygamy. And later when Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, who later became president of the LDS Church, they went back to interview Emma and, or interview McClellan and he repeated that story to both of them. So that's what they believed. So then the conclusion is sexual allegations involving Eliza Winner, Nancy Marinda Johnson, Ms. Hill and Fanny Algeria were made against the character of Joseph Smith from 1829-35. As a married man, Joseph Smith must have been mortified to be accused of improper sexual contact conduct with at least four young women during this six year period. Each reader can evaluate these allegations for themselves. So I'm just saying that's, that's, that's what we have on this, on, on the allegations.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Yeah. And just to, just to kind of round out this point and you've been very patient with me as I've tried to kind of paint the story because I don't want to just talk about sources without trying to paint a bit of the narrative behind it to give our listeners a bit of a better understanding.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] But

John Dehlin [00:52:47] I guess, you know, anyone can have different interpretation of this. You can believe that Joseph, God was guiding him all along. You can believe that, that, that he, you know, had a high libido and, and took advantage of women all throughout and that polygamy was just part of that pattern. Like people are going to draw their own conclusions. I think, I think what this does is it gives us the information that, that Nauvoo wasn't this isolated sort of thing that happened at the end of his life, but that instead there seems to have been something going on with women and sexual improprieties almost, you know, from the beginning of his adult life. And we should have that information as we form a more informed conclusions about Joseph Smith. And when we hear that story about him being tarred and feathered, we need to understand that it wasn't simply because he was being a martyr for truth, but instead it was because there were sexual allegations against him.

Grant Palmer [00:53:50] You know, well, you know, the Mormon Sunday School, they don't tell you the rest of the story.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] Yeah, yeah. And so that's, that's kind of what we're doing here is doing our best to fill in some of those holes. And, and I'll just invite any apologist or anyone who wants to come on this show and tell us where we've got it wrong or paint a different picture. We're totally open to that. But I think what, what Grant you've done is at least given us a starting point to know this stuff. And to. To talk about it, you know.

Grant Palmer [00:54:19] Well, I. I put it together. It's not isolated. This incident and that incident and this incident. It. It bros. Brings them all together in. It's only four pages. And then I have no, It's. Excuse me. It's. Oh, it's. Oh, I'm looking at the wrong paper. Yeah. This is all done in a very short period. It's roughly three and a quarter pages plus footnotes.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so people can dig into it and figure out what. What they want to make of it. And some are going to say, where there's smoke, there's fire. And others are going to say, well, if Joseph did it, God must have wanted him to do it. And, you know, we'll let people draw their own conclusions.

Grant Palmer [00:55:02] Well, and as you know, there's a raging debate on whether Joseph Smith had sex with his married women who are already married. I mean, that is. You know, everybody can come to their own conclusion based on what they think, but at least we have the. The information there to. To take a look at.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] Music today was provided by the saber rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generous. Universally donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest [00:55:39] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace Shadow as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell Oh, I All is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right

Grant Palmer [00:56:51] and when

Guest [00:56:51] why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will ever ask for sa sake soon we'll have tale to tell? Oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam.

Grant Palmer [00:58:08] Sa.

Guest [00:58:33] Should we die before our journey is through Happy day? All is well we then are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall well but if our lives are spared Again to see the sa the rest obtain or how we'll make this ch swell oh, all is well all is well all is well

John Dehlin [00:59:32] all is well

Guest [00:59:35] all is well oh, is well. All.

Part Two Disclaimer and Introduction to William Law

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 325

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hi, this is John with a super brief disclaimer that the topics discussed on today's edition of Mormon Stories Podcast are very sensitive and kind of controversial and many are going to see them as somewhat critical or negative of Joseph Smith. So please don't listen if you have sensitive ears, if your testimony is sensitive or fragile, or if you're just tired of negative things on Mormon Stories, because this is a tough one. But please know that we're committed on Mormon Stories to being fair and balanced and to be a safe place for believers and non believers. So we'll do our best to make sure that happens. But this one's a tough one. So listen if you feel so inclined, but don't hesitate to put it down if you don't. And now to the wonderful and incomparable Grant Palmer. Thanks a lot. Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org okay, great. Well, let's, let's move on then to the, to the William Law story. And I don't want to just dive into the particulars without painting a bit of a, you know, just a, a bit of context, setting a bit of context for the story. So we're not looking for you to recount specifics, we're not going to hold you to any details. We just want to get an overall feel for what's going on. So tell us a bit about William Law so that then we can understand why this is significant.

Grant Palmer [00:01:46] Okay. I don't pretend to have a deep understanding of William and Jane Law's life, frankly. We need a first class biography of the man. He. The research I did, let me just say he was born in Ireland in 1809, came to western Pennsylvania when he's 10 years old. His family, he's only a 10 year old. He migrates up near Toronto, Toronto, Canada. And there he meets, marries his wife Jane. They joined the church in 1836 in Toronto. That's 1836.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:02:26] He's late on the scene.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:02:27] Then moved to Nauvoo in 39, in 41, he's a member of the first presidency.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] How does that happen?

Grant Palmer [00:02:33] Yeah, he's, he's, he's very industry interest, industrious. He's, he's has money, he's has mills, he has this. And he was all I could ever find in his before he joined Mormons. He was a very good man. All I could ever find after he left Mormonism. He was a very good man. He, the last 40, he's excommunicated in the church in April of 44, just, you know, a couple of months before Joseph dies or is killed. And then they left Nauvoo, never to return in June of 44. And his last 40 years were spent in Apple River, Illinois and Shoalsburg, Wisconsin where he was a medical doctor. And if you go up there and, and little probing I've done. He had a very good reputation. He raised a very good family. I think he had five or six children. I know one of them was a physician and one was a judge. They, this, these are fairly prominent people. And I mean obviously Joseph Smith saw something in Young Law. Here he's, he comes to Nauvoo in 39 and two years later he's in the first presidency. Wow. So anyway, that I think he was a good man all during his life. But I'm not going to defend that to the death because someone needs to do a major biography on the man. And I'm just giving three of many reasons why he's leaving the church.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] And there's a decent chance that in addition to whatever righteousness and reputation that he has, you could probably attribute his rapid ascent to the first presidency to the fact that he was a person of means. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:04:23] I'm sure that's one of the reasons. But he had a pretty level head. He was a, you know, I think he was, I think he was a good man. I think he had leadership qualities and what have you. That's why I say I think he's the most important person to ever leave because he has a certain credibility. At least that's the way he came across to me. Okay, so he ever tell a lie? Sure. Was he a little self righteous? I think so. But I don't want to paint a picture here of a perfect human being that he was not.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Okay, got it. So, so what do we know about his leaving and why he left?

Grant Palmer [00:05:06] Well, I give just three reasons here in this paper and I don't know how deep you want to go into this, but the first one, let's just paint a story.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Let's tell the story the best we can.

Grant Palmer [00:05:16] Well, William Law says that once and more of this will come out as we have this discussion. But they were excommunicated, he and Jane Law in April of April 18th of 44 and thereafter the Laws Got death threats. Law claims that he and the Joseph and Hiram tried to poison him at a. At a banquet. And back then, you couldn't tell very well. Dr. Foster, who was a medical doctor, and Law did a little bit of medicine in Nauvoo. He had some idea, but we. Again, we don't know that. But by June, they are actually driven from the community. They lose about $30,000 worth of property. He and his brother Wilson, who was not a member of the church, by the way. Wilson Law. And. And that was a standard procedure, according to William, that when someone did something that Joseph didn't like, they'd put a freeze on your property and nobody would buy it unless you had his permission. So they lost their residences, they lost their farms, and they lost some city lots that they owned. They valued about $30,000 in that era,

John Dehlin [00:06:37] which is a huge amount of money back then.

Grant Palmer [00:06:39] Yeah. And so they left, never to return. And you have to understand that William Law and Jane Law were so mortified, they felt they were duped. They're like the. The old couple on television who lost all their money, and they don't want to talk about how they. How they lost it. They were so mortified that once they left Nauvoo, after about August, they didn't talk about Mormonism for 43 years. The only reason they brought it up is because their son, Thomas Law, the judge in Wisconsin, now prevailed upon him. And they. He gave one oral interview, and then he wrote three questions. It was so painful to him. He says the worst thing he ever did was join the Mormonism. Jane Law burned all of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine Covenants and. And what have you. I mean, these. They felt like they were duped. They. They thought it was the worst thing that ever happened to them, that they had joined the LDS Church and they just. They didn't want to talk about it, and they. And they didn't.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:07:45] 43 years.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] Okay. So we don't really. We don't really get their. Their story other than what came out in the Navu Expositor, right?

Grant Palmer [00:07:58] Well, no, because William law wrote a 1844 diary, but he. It was never published, to my understanding, until 1994 by Lyndon Cook.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Really?

Grant Palmer [00:08:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Is it viewed as a credible biography?

Grant Palmer [00:08:16] No, it's just. It's just Law just writing down what happens day to day. So we. We know what he thought because he recorded it at the time.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Okay. All right.

Grant Palmer [00:08:27] But he never talked about it, and he never published it. And I don't know how the church got a hold of it. But they did and they, they have a copy of it.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] But no one's challenging the credibility of the biography like a forged forgery or anything like that.

Grant Palmer [00:08:39] Not to my knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Okay. All right. Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:08:43] And then we have the three letters and the oral interview that he did in 1887. That's after 43 years of total silence.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Okay, okay. All right. But didn't he have something to do with the Nauvoo Expositor too?

Why William and Jane Law Broke with Joseph Smith

Grant Palmer [00:08:57] Yeah, but let's back up here. The first thing that really bothers the, the laws is that they, they believe that Joseph Smith ordered the death of his enemies. And, and, and let me say right up front the reasons why people are leaving the church today for academic, intellectual reasons. This is not the reasons why William and Jane Law left the church. People will be shocked for why they're leaving the church. They're not leaving the church because the Book of Mormon isn't the word of God. They even say that in the Nauvoo Expositor, by the way. They believe in, in the Doctrine Covenants. It's the other things that they don't, they don't question the priesthood, restoration, the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, the historicity of the Book of Mormon. The first, you know. Yeah. First. They don't, they don't question any of the things that modern day people who look at this stuff and get disturbed by it. This is not why they are leaving and this is what attracted me to this project in the first place. They're on a whole different time frame. So the first thing they're saying is that they were deeply disturbed that Joseph Smith would try to kill his enemies. Now that is so strong sounding that I'm not sure a true believer would even believe what I just said. And I'm not going to defend it. I'm just trying to say what bothered me. The laws. Okay, Right. The first thing they did is they got that Joseph Smith in 1841 prophesied in Nauvoo in a grove that Boggs would die a violent death within one year.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] This is the governor of Missouri that, that people say was responsible that, that issued the extermination order on Mormons. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:10:55] Yeah. There again, Joseph Smith is really upset that Governor, ex Governor Libran W. Boggs drove the LDS Church out of Missouri.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:11:08] Now they're settled in Nauvoo and Joseph has, according to the laws, he can't let it go. They can't, they can't have a Christian attitude towards it. The laws say just let it go. He says he couldn't do that. He hired Warren Porter Rockwell to go do the deed. And you have to understand that Rockwell was a real lackey. That's the William Law calls him. He was a lackey for anything Joseph Smith wanted to do. He'd fix the mansion house. He'd fix. He'd fix everything. He would do whatever he wanted. And according to this, he went and shot Boggs through his window at his residence in Independence, Missouri.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] And this is something that's been rumored for a long time, right?

Grant Palmer [00:11:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah, I mean, I've. I've heard of this, independent of anything I've heard about William Law.

Grant Palmer [00:11:56] But as soon as it happens, the sitting governor of. Not of Illinois, named Thomas Carlin writes Joseph Smith a letter, and he says, you know, you've threatened my life, too, but I haven't taken you seriously until now because I know for a fact that you. You predicted that Boggs would die a violent death within a year. Now, where is that coming from? Well, that's coming from then John C. Bennett, who's not the best source in the world, I grant you that. But then he was assistant to the first presidency of the church because Sidney Rigdon had fallen ill. And so you basically have John C. Bennett is an assistant to the first president, William Count Law as the second counselor, and Rigdon is still first counselor, but he's ailing, so he's in. And so according to Bennett, he says now we have Carlin's statement. We have Bennett's statement in 41 a public congregation in Nauvoo that he would die within one year.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] Okay, so. So, Grant, let's just. Let's summarize where we are now. So you're saying that maybe the first reason that the Laws left the church and were scared was because they feared for their lives. Because they report to feel pretty certain that Joseph had ordered the assassination of Bogs and the Boggs. There was an assassination attempt on him. And so they were probably fearing for their lives. Is that potentially true?

Grant Palmer [00:13:41] Well, that. That was a very big red light for them. Now you've got Thomas Carlin writing a letter to Joseph and saying, look, I didn't take the Bogs threats you made on him seriously. But now that he's been shot and he miraculously lived, by the way, he's shot three or four times, twice in the head, but he lived. And so Carlin's writing a letter saying, I'm putting you on notice here. I've got that document. And. And then Carlin has heard about the predictions that Boggs will die a violent death. Other members have also, including John C. Bennett. And Bennett says, he says Joseph was. I was, you know, I was in the First Presidency with him, at least assistant to the First Presidency. And, and one day I noticed that Porter Rockwell was gone. I says, where. Where's Porter Roll? And he says, gone. Gone to fulfill prophecy right now.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Now, of course, you mentioned this, you alluded to this, but John C. Bennett is viewed as kind of a scoundrel by many sources, including William Law. Right. And let me just, so let me just ask you just. Well, oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Grant Palmer [00:14:54] Let me just finish the prediction part of this.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Sure, sure.

Grant Palmer [00:14:57] So other members, when Joseph started denying. No, I haven't made this prediction in, in the Nauvoo newspapers and in the Sagamo Journal in Illinois. Joseph got letters, and I have some of those letters saying, denying you have prophesied the violent death of Boggs won't do at all. Too many people have heard you, myself included. That's one wrote in. And, and then the most important testimony, I think here is that Joseph, William Law says he told me flat out that he had sent Rockwell to assassinate Boggs. And he almost gives the exact words, let me tell you that Joseph Smith told me the fact himself. The words were substantially like this. I sent Rockwell to kill Boggs, but he missed him. It was a failure. He wounded him instead of sending him to hell, unquote. So you got two members in the First Presidency closely associated with Smith that are claiming that they've had that Smith told him this. Now, it's interesting to me that after all these years, after 43 years is now 1887, and Dr. William Weil is going to interview Law. And before any questions are even asked, Law made that statement. You. So, you know, it's on his mind and been bothering him for a long time. And it's something so graphic, I doubt that even the lapse of time would have completely diminished his memory on such a. Such a testimony by Joseph Smith. Anyway. So that's, that's the prediction there. Now enter Joseph Jackson. Now a whole book is going to be written on Jackson that probably be published by signature book by a very good Illinois historian that I know. And he came from Georgia to, to Nauvoo and met Joseph in, in May of 43. And he had a rather sordid past. And according to Jackson, he. Smith said that. That I was just the man he wanted. Well, then he hired Jackson to go finish what Rockwell failed to do. He offered him a pretty substantial Sum of money and he gives his, his story. It's rather. I won't read it all. So that's kind of the bog story. Now about a month later, Joseph gets Section 132 in the doctrine Covenants and there it says that Joseph has his exaltation. There's only one thing that can keep him from being exalted, and that is you cannot shed innocent blood. And the thought occurred to me, I don't think it's a possibility that Joseph regarded Boggs not as innocent blood but as guilty blood.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:17:55] And therefore there would be no eternal consequence and he didn't seem to fear the law. I just thought that was kind of interesting. So that's, that's the first thing that really I think bothered. There's a number of things that bothered him. I'm just talking about three of the.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Right. And that, that innocent blood notion, you know, maybe that, that forms the beginnings of what later became Brigham Young's whole emphasis on, on blood atonement.

Grant Palmer [00:18:23] Mountain Meadow Massacre, the Lafferty's doing their thing.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Yeah, it's fundamentalist.

Grant Palmer [00:18:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] It's like Brigham learns from Joseph that there's such thing as, as guilty blood and innocent blood. And, and maybe it's okay for guilty blood to be shed.

Grant Palmer [00:18:37] And, and, and see, Joseph Jackson says, I just, I was playing along with this because, you know, blah, blah, blah. But he says he had such a calm. It's like heaven had commanded him to have this murder committed. He had seemingly no guilt or conscience about it. And I wonder if that's the reason Smith could have been so, so calm about ordering these, these. The Death of Boggs.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Okay, so before we go into reason number two, one quick question. Are William Law's. Is William Law's journal published?

Grant Palmer [00:19:11] Yes, in 1994. His diary.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] His diary is published. And is it good stuff? Is it interesting?

Grant Palmer [00:19:19] It is, but it was done by Lyndon Cook who's a BYU professor and it was published in BYU Studies. He's a part time BYU professor at the time. So, you know, I think he's being a little careful in order to get it published. But I think that the diary speaks for itself in another very. Of what the laws believe. Now if someone wants to refute it. Okay, okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] All right, but that's a good read. Okay, so let's go.

Grant Palmer [00:19:44] It's in the paper that will be on, on, on the, on my home page.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Okay, got it. Okay, so what's the second reason that you're saying the laws left the church?

Joseph Smith's Plural Marriage Proposals to the Laws

Grant Palmer [00:19:56] A couple of immoral proposals and it's pretty well known to. To members of the LDS Church that, that Joseph Smith had 30, at least 33 documented wives. Some of them were teenagers, some of them were married women, some of them were older singles over. Over their teens. But in. By June 23, 1843. And I. I say that date because William Clayton, this is Joseph's private secretary, he records in his journal that day, he says, Emma Smith and Joseph had a conversation, which I was privy to. And Emma is saying, Joseph, if you can have all these wives, and by that date, June of 43, he has 21 plural wives. He says, if you can have 21 plural wives, I ought to be able to have at least one man for myself. And I want William Law because, quote, he's a sweet little man, unquote. Okay, okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] All right. So is she missing her husband because he's busy.

Grant Palmer [00:21:10] He's. And so William Law says, well, let me tell you. And so in the doctrine covenants, section 132, verse 51, is written a revelation that's later embedded into section 132, which was given on July 12, 1843. So this happens sometime between Clayton's comment in June of 20th, June of 23rd, 1843, and before the revelation on polygamy in 18, July 12th, 1843. A couple of weeks. Okay, I just set that up for the reader or for the listener. So Jackson seems to know about this stuff, and this is what he says. Emma wanted Law for a spiritual husband, and she urged the reason that he had so many spiritual wives. She thought it but fair that she should have at least one man. And she wants Law because he's such a sweet little man. Well, in section 132, verse 51, it. It says, commandment I give unto my handmaiden Emma Smith, which I commanded you, Joseph, to offer unto her. Okay. The offer is. I think Jackson's got a little bit wrong because he thinks it's going to be a quartet. In other words, William and Jane Law and Joseph and Emma Smith are going to do a little wife swapping.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Swinging, basically.

Grant Palmer [00:22:46] Swinging. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:22:48] And. But that's not what is going down according to Law. They. They later ask him in his oral interview, and he says, no, it's not wife swapping. Joseph offers. Emma says, joseph, if you can do it, I can do it too. That's William Clayton, Secretary of Joseph. And then William Law describes what the offer is as described in section 132, verse 51. The offer is that she is to be a substitute. That's the word he used a substitute for Joseph Smith. Why? Because Joseph has seven young wives in the mansion house. And Emma's supposed to smile all the time and she doesn't like it and she harasses Joseph all the time about having all these wives. She knows about it. And so he says, okay, I will give you William Law or somebody else as a substitute. And they take that to. So Joseph and Emma are agreed about this. They take it to the Laws and the Laws turn it down. I think this is ridiculous. So.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] And who. And again, where do we learn about this? The Joseph and Emma approaching the laws about Emma having William Law. What's the source for that?

Grant Palmer [00:24:10] Do you remember Doctrine and Covenants 132, verse 51.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] Let's read that real quick.

Grant Palmer [00:24:16] I just read it. Oh, this is the. It's, it's in. It's generic. It says quote, a commandment I give unto my handmaiden Emma Smith, which I command you, Joseph, to offer unto her. Okay. That's the first part of it. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:24:35] William Law tells us what that offer is.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:24:38] And, and that's. We've discussed that. Right?

John Dehlin [00:24:41] Okay. Yeah. Okay. I just making sure.

Grant Palmer [00:24:42] So okay then.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Now is this just your interpretation or is this accepted by other historians that you talk to?

Grant Palmer [00:24:52] I think it's getting to be pretty accepted, but I can't speak for all of them, of course.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Okay. But I mean, you have other reputable friends who, you know, historical friends, maybe even faithful ones that. That.

Grant Palmer [00:25:04] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] That recognized that Emma was looking to have William Law as a spiritual husband and that Joseph was willing to go along with that. And then the law.

Grant Palmer [00:25:16] This is where Law disagrees with Jackson. Jackson says it's a spiritual husband. Law says, no, it wasn't to be a spiritual husband. It was to be a substitute for Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:25:28] In other words, Joseph and Emma would live together and William and Jane would live together, but there would be a little.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:25:37] Gift or a substitute for Joseph in sexual substitute because she was so lonely because he was spending all this time with all these 21 plural wives at that point. That's, that's what Law says happens. It's not, it's not wife swapping.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Right. Okay, so this is kind of crazy, right? This is like kind of crazy.

Grant Palmer [00:25:58] It's really crazy when you think that what the First Presidency of the Church is doing. Joseph is. Has already asked Nancy Rigdon to be his spiritual wife. And what's wrong? Under one circumstances. Right. Under another, you're familiar with that statement. So Rigdon is pulled In. He's his first counselor. And now you got Law being asked to be a substitute for him sexually. You got John C. Bennett that's running around Nauvoo using Joseph's name to have sex with women and being somewhat successful. And then, you know, Emma's saying, my husband commits adultery and play me. So the whole first presidency is. Is kind of. It's really. Except.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Except William Law.

Grant Palmer [00:26:39] Except William Law. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:26:42] And they turn him down. And then. And as soon as they turn him down, somewhere between June 23 and July 11, then Joseph gets the rest of the revelation. And if you want to read it, it's in section 132, verse 51 through 54. And this is what it now read what? What? This is the instructions to Emma now that the laws have turned them down for this substitute deal with Joseph, not a marriage. Okay. He writes that the revelation is that she stay herself and partake not of which. Of that which I commanded you to offer unto her. For I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all as I did Abraham. That's what Joseph's now.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] So he falls back on the Abrahamic sacrifice thing. Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:27:37] And a lot of that just simply means I really didn't want you to accept my proposal. I. I accept the proposals of pretty girls. I. I mean, no, that's a little over the top, but that's. That could be interpreted that way.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:27:51] Let my handmade Emma Smith receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph. I command my handmaid Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph and to none else. See, there it is. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord. For. For I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Yeah. Like, how is Emma. Not. How is Emma going along with this? Like, as I understand it. Oh, go ahead.

Grant Palmer [00:28:21] So Emma's talked to. To William quite a bit. And. And. And William records both Joseph and Emma's comments on those verses we just read to Joseph. Joseph thought. He thought the revelation would cause Emma to submit peacefully as it threatened her removal, if that's what Law's saying that Joseph's reaction was. So he thinks Joseph will come. Emma will comply. Emma confided to Law that the revelation, which she did not believe in, by the way, quote, was a threat against her life if she did not comply. That's quote.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] You thought that maybe Emma thought Joseph would take her out?

Grant Palmer [00:29:03] That's what Emma thinks.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Okay. All right, all right.

Grant Palmer [00:29:06] Joseph Uses the word removal and destroyed, destroying the revelation and removal to William Smith.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] And if Joseph, you know, one could. It's clear that some people thought that Joseph committed the murder of Boggs. And so it's not hard to draw lines and say, well, if Joseph could command the murder of Boggs, he could do it to me, Emma or someone else. Right?

Grant Palmer [00:29:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:29:34] Well, the day Joseph Smith did. Died, this is what Smith wrote. Joseph Smith was unscrupulous. No man's life was safe if he was disposed to hate him.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] Who wrote this? Who wrote this again?

Grant Palmer [00:29:50] William Law. On the very day.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Okay, okay.

Grant Palmer [00:29:53] Joseph died June 27, 1844.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:29:57] In his diary.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] Got it.

Grant Palmer [00:30:00] He was unscrupulous. No man's life was safe if he was disposed to hate him. He set the laws of God and men at defiance. So he sets it right there that the day he dies in Carthage. So he believes this. Okay, so Emma then says the law. Emma's law said that Emma's quote spoke repeatedly about that pretended Revelation 132 and says, I must submit or be destroyed. Well, I guess I have to submit.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] Right?

Grant Palmer [00:30:30] So that's how that goes down. All right. Now, several months after the substitute for Joseph incident, Joseph approaches William Law to be a plural wife of his. This is in November, December. And it's just baffling because here the Laws have already turned him down on the substitute sex deal. And now he's approaching Jane Law when William isn't home and wants to marry him. Marry her. This comes right from Alexander Nebor, who's a good friend of Joseph Smith. And it also comes from Jackson and so forth. And this is in November and December of 1843, probably December. So it's like four or five months later. And. And Joseph is. Is asking Law to marry Jane to marry him. She's very attractive. She's 30 years old. Joseph is 38, William Law's 36. I'm guessing Emma's probably 39. I think she's a year older than Joseph. So that's what's going down. So on June or on January 1, the law. Law records in his diary, this is

John Dehlin [00:31:58] 1844, the year Joseph's death.

Grant Palmer [00:32:00] Yeah, See, the marriage proposal to Jane is in November. December 43. Now it's January 1st. And in his diary, he just really emotionally says, we've had one heck of a year. And we have rejected Smith's proposals about polygamy. The light, the latest one about being a polygamous wife. And. And then, and then he tells Jackson this. He says Jackson. I've tried for two months to get Mrs. William Law for a spiritual, polygamous wife, but I can't do anything to convince her of the correctness of my doctrine, and I have not succeeded. And then he hires Jackson to take Smith out. According to Jackson, and he says this. On Sunday morning, Joseph and I had a long talk concerning law in which he avowed, not for the first time, however, his determination to put Law out of the way, for he had become dangerous to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and that it was the will of God that he should be removed. So he's hiring him. And we have other writers who are writing on this. It's not just Jackson. Okay. He, however, wished to proceed in such a manner that he would be able to get Law's wife. In other words, he wants to do it incognito. This is according to Jackson. There's also affidavits on that, that. That Jackson was hired to kill Law. Okay. By Jan. Okay. So they turned. They turned Joseph down on Jane being Joseph's plural wife. And by 8 January, law is dropped as a counselor in the first presidency of the Church. And then on April 18, the laws are excommunicated from the church.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] Okay, so the laws. Okay, so.

Guest [00:34:03] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] So the. So the claim here is that. I'm just going to summarize that Emma wanted William Law as a spiritual or even as a real plural husband. Sexual partner.

Grant Palmer [00:34:18] No, not a husband, a sexual partner according to the laws that.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] The laws. According to the laws that that approach was made, and the laws turned that down. Later, Joseph tried to approach Jane Law to be a plural wife of his. And that was also turned down.

Grant Palmer [00:34:36] Down. Yeah. And then a week later, he's dropped from the first presidency. And a couple of months later, he's. The both of them are excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] And this is in this. This. I mean, wow, this sounds like high drama of a sort. I've actually, you know, I've read enough to. To. To perceive a lot of high drama in Nauvoo, especially in those last three or four years. But this is sort of drama of the highest possible sort.

Grant Palmer [00:35:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Because we're talking about swinging wife swapping. We're talking about potential murder. The part of this that does corroborate with what I've read is. Is the fact that Joseph would proposition people's wives even when they were married to other men at the time.

Grant Palmer [00:35:25] Well, Jane Law's married.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Right. And. And we know that at least, what, eight of Joseph's 30 plus wives were married to other men. Eleven were married to other men at the time Joseph took them on.

Grant Palmer [00:35:37] And we found two more since that book was written by Todd.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Right. And, and we also know that sometimes Joseph would send people on missions.

Grant Palmer [00:35:48] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] And then proposition their wives while, while they're here.

Grant Palmer [00:35:53] So, okay, so, so this incident caused a breach between Joseph and Law. This is what triggered it.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] And I just, what was going through Joseph's mind? Like, this is crazy.

Grant Palmer [00:36:09] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] What was he thinking?

Grant Palmer [00:36:14] I, I don't know. I, I, I honestly don't. It's, it's, but it involves the entire First Presidency of the Church, involves Sidney Rigdon's daughter Nancy. It involves John Bennett doing his thing, whether it's authorized or not. He's, he's doing that. And it involves the laws. His first, second counselor.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Crazy.

Grant Palmer [00:36:33] It is crazy.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] Okay. All right. Now I, I, I want to talk about the Nauvoo Expositor. Do you know, do you know about the Nava Expositor?

The Nauvoo Expositor and Its Destruction

Grant Palmer [00:36:45] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Okay. You talk about the political kingdom of God as your third point. Should we talk about that and then come back to the Expositor or should we talk about the Expositor now?

Grant Palmer [00:36:55] Let's talk about the Expositor right now. Well, let's see. Now let me say another, a couple things about the proposals of Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] Okay?

Grant Palmer [00:37:11] So, and this kind of ties in to the Expositor, which by the way means to expose.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:37:22] So the laws, they, they, they think this, this is ridiculous. There's only a hundred people in Nauvoo who probably know about the stuff that we know about. And by the way, the 1845 census of Illinois shows there was a, I think 11,800 something people living in Nauvoo proper city.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:37:48] And then another 5,000 outside of the city limit. So this is a big community. This is what, 18,000 people, right? Just to compare, Chicago in the 1845 census had 10,000 something. So a thousand something less than, than what's in Nauvoo. So this is a pretty big, pretty big city, right? And, and Carthage has over 300 people. Warsaw has less than that. I mean, this is, these are the surrounding areas. So William and Jane Law and Dr. Foster and his wife and, and there's two there and a few others. They think, what in the heck are we going to do about this? And they said, well, let's get up a printing press. And Law put two grand in and the rest of them put, you know, seven, eight hundred bucks. And they, they, they rented a building on Main street there, right by the Kraus furniture store, now stands in, in Nauvoo. And by the way, there's no plaque on there. And this, this incident about the destruction of the Nauvoo exposure is what triggered Joseph Smith's events to lead, leading to his death and the exodus of the Mormons from Illinois. And there's, there's no plaque. There's nothing. It's a very important part of our

John Dehlin [00:39:10] history that we have.

Grant Palmer [00:39:12] Somebody needs to put a plaque up there. And the Kraus, as I understand, I was going to talk to him when I was back there in October or September, but I didn't get around to it. But I think they would probably be amenable to that. I think somebody needs to approach them anyway. So the first thing the laws do is they get this, this building and they get a printing press and they're into this three grand. And then they write up a prospectus and they send it out to the community and it tells everybody what they're going to do. Now, very, very few people, we're talking, I don't know, maybe a hundred, 200 people know about this out of 18,000. Okay. So this becomes very dangerous for Joseph Smith to have the facts revealed. And this paper had one and only, Only one issue came out on a Friday, but it was designed to come out every Friday. But of course, the press was destroyed and, and this led to consequences for the laws by. It came out on the 8th of 7th or 8th of June, and by the 12th, the laws felt so threatened, they just left the community and never returned. They, they just thought their lives were threatened. They lost all that property we mentioned earlier. They just walked away from it.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] But let's talk about what the. Not what that Nauvoo Expositor claimed.

Grant Palmer [00:40:33] Well, it claimed two. Two of the three reasons why the laws left the church. One is the polygamy thing and another is the, the political kingdom of God, which was set up on March 1144, called the Council of 50. And that's a big subject and we won't go into that too, too much, but it says right in the minutes that Joseph Smith had himself ordained king of the earth right in there.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:41:08] And of course, Brigham Young was in 1847 and John Taylor in 1885. So this was a long going thing. They actually thought they were going to take over, give laws for the world and eventually help Christ usher in his millennial reign. So this leaks out and, and William Law has an entry on Joseph is ordained king on 4-11-44. And by the 15th, the laws already know about it, even though they're, you know, they're about to be excommunicated. Four days later they're going to be excommunicated. But he records in his diary, he says this, this is, this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. This is the idea of Smith being a theocrat of dictating everything that happens here in our community and having worldwide vision of it all and being, you know, king over the earth and president pro temp of the world. That's an actual phrase by Heber C. Kimball. They, they couldn't, they wrote that up in the Navo Exposure, the one and only edition. And they said something like, it's a sacred duty to advocate unmitigated disobedience to political revelations and to censure and decry gross moral imperfections wherever found, either in the plebeian perdition or self constituted monarch. So they know he's, they declared him to be a God in that council and a king over the earth. And the laws just says, I've had enough, this is it. And so they excommunicated him four days later.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] Okay, so I'm just gonna, I'm gonna just go back a bit. So, so just to, just to summarize what you said, it seems like Joseph kind of, you know, went crazy towards the end because he, he creates this council of 50, he gets himself anointed as king of the world and he sort of starts talking about ushering in this theocracy where he's not just going to rule Nauvoo or the United States, but he's ultimately going to rule the world. Right, right. And this is accepted widely by faithful and non faithful historians. The Church has the council of the 50 minutes in its vault somewhere, as I understand it. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:43:33] And they have not let scholars see them to this date.

John Dehlin [00:43:36] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:43:38] I think because it may. We don't know what's in those minutes, frankly, but it could be treason. Treasonous kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] Yeah. And so what? And so what we hear, what we see from the laws, is that they see that Joseph's willing, may potentially willing to kill or assassinate people. They see that he's propositioning young girls, you know, immigrants that come over from England or wherever. He seems to be preying upon young girls. He seems to be preying upon other men's wives. Now he's done that to the laws themselves.

Grant Palmer [00:44:12] Well, in section on multiple occasions, section 132, section 132, verse 61 says he's only supposed to approach virgins. And so obviously, married women are not virgins. So he's breaking his own commandment.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Okay, and then, and then finally, like you said, the, the straw that breaks the camel's back is when he declares himself king of the world. Right? And so the Nauvoo Expositor. These are basically the claims that the Nauvoo Expositor basically makes. It's not like this newspaper offers a bunch of lies. In fact, what it's doing is it's saying, I, William Law, along with seven or eight other people, you know, we were there. We know Joseph. And the crazy thing is they actually, just like, Just like David Whitmer, they start out, don't they start out by saying, we still believe in the Book of Mormon. We still believe in the Restoration.

Grant Palmer [00:45:08] It says that right? In the Nauvoo Expositor.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] Yeah, just like. So it's not like they're total disbelievers or heretics. They still believe in part of what Joseph, you know, did. But they go on to say that this guy must have been a fallen prophet. Again, just like.

Grant Palmer [00:45:23] That's exactly.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Go ahead.

Grant Palmer [00:45:26] Two or three hundred people meet at Law's house. And that's the gist of it all. He's a fallen prophet. And what are we, you know, what are we going to do about it?

John Dehlin [00:45:36] So, and so what they, so what they do is they, they, they, they write this up in the Nauvoo Expositor. And the main two claims, other than that he's fallen is that he's doing this polygamy stuff, this exaltation stuff, these controversial doctrines, like the, like the king followed discourse, you know, men becoming gods. So theologically, he's gone crazy. Too much power. Go ahead.

Grant Palmer [00:45:59] Well, yeah, the fallen prophet. And see, the laws, they says we hang in that. We hung in there because we thought we could reform him, get him to stop doing this stuff. But he went full bore ahead. The laws. Once the, Once the prospectus of the, of the Nauvoo Expositor is out. Remember, the expositor appears on 44-6-7, but on May 10, the prospectus is given to the community. So they know it's coming.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] Right?

Grant Palmer [00:46:27] And in that, as soon as that prospectus hits the streets, there is Sidney Rigdon over there on the Law's doorstep in behalf of Joseph. And he says, look, we don't want this stuff out. We will reinstate you in the First Presidency. We'll admit that we. We cut you off in the church and you weren't even in attendance. We will admit all this stuff. And the law says, well, we have a few things we want before we're going to come back. And that one, you know, and they start ticking these things off about polygamy. You got to say, it's from hell and all this other stuff. And. And Rigdon says, well, I'm not authorized to offer you that. And then three weeks later, out comes the expositor, really giving their. Their. Their serious grievances.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] Right. And so. And every. You know, most of my listeners know this, but if there's someone who's new to this history, I'm just going to finish drawing the lines. The Nauvoo expositors released. It's declared a menace by the council that oversees Nauvoo, of which Joseph is what, the mayor or he's the mayor. Yeah. And it's declared a nuisance, a public nuisance. And, you know, thugs basically come and destroy the printing press, right? Yes, they physically destroy the printing press, which of course is what, a violation of law in terms of the destruction of private property and a violation of the freedom of. The freedom of press. Is that right?

Grant Palmer [00:47:55] Yeah. And if you read the document, there's really very little in here from a perspective of today that was false. I. I can't hardly see anything. They have 15 resolutions, and as far as I can tell, those. Those things are true about what was going on in Nauvoo.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] Yeah. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go ahead and provide a link to the full text, you know, a full rep of the document. But it. But, but. But the biggest. The most scandalous thing in there is that he's seducing young women. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:48:25] Yeah. When they first come over from England, primarily, or.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] Yeah. That these young, poor immigrant girls.

Grant Palmer [00:48:31] Yeah. The first thing, you got to have an audience with Joseph and then bang, you know, they're.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Yeah. And. And to be honest, when you think about the crazy stuff that, like Warren Jeffs is doing, it, you know, you kind of think that Warren Jeffs basically is just really studied, you know, or the. The fundamentalists, they've just really studied and taken seriously, you know, 1842-1844, Mormonism and Joseph.

Grant Palmer [00:48:57] They're Joseph Smith Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Yeah. And so they're. They're. They're doing Mormonism like Joseph did towards the end of his life. Right?

Grant Palmer [00:49:04] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] Yeah. And so the. The pretty press gets destroyed, word gets back, and, you know, the governor. Doesn't the governor of Illinois get involved? And he basically says, you know, Joseph we gotta put you in jail. I think he may have even promised Joseph to protect him, but because he needed to get Joseph in jail, and he said, if you'll get in jail, I'll protect you. But the idea was, I, as governor of this state, I can't have people destroying printing presses in America, you know, without. Without there being at least some type of trial.

Grant Palmer [00:49:38] Well, and declaring yourself a king. I think. I think it's Ford who said that Nauvoo was a. A government within the state of Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:49:49] Because of that charter. It was a very generous charter. And the laws thought that this was the beginning of the. Of our problems in Nauvoo because it gave too much power to. To Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:50:01] And he just kind of went from there.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Yeah. So it's kind of like a rogue. A rogue state, a rogue city, a rogue religion, and a bit of a rogue prophet and things unravel. And so that's why Joseph Smith went to Carthage for the destruction of the printing press. And of course, it was there that he was assassinated by the mob. But that's why I always like to say that it was polygamy that killed Joseph. I mean, it really was. Right. I mean, it was.

Grant Palmer [00:50:29] No, there's a. There's about five reasons. One of them was masonry, given away the temple ceremony and did it all in one setting. And it normally took years to get there. That was. There were a group of those. This kingdom. This kingdom on earth was. Was part of it. Polygamy was part of it. And. And the young man and cattle stealing, carriage stealing, that was another group in the mob. And finally we have. We have one young man. When Joseph jumped out of the window, he wanted to cut his head off. And they interviewed him and says why? He says, because he violated my sister. So you've got multiple reasons why they. And this isn't just a theory. This Illinois historian is doing a major book on the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Not just Joseph Jackson, but the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum. And also we'll probably do something eventually on Nauvoo polygamy. He's done more than. He's found more stuff than I think anybody or beyond what we have now. And we found a lot.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] So what are some good books? Let's say that people are like, Grant Palmer's pulling this out of his rear. This is anti Mormon evil things. What are some books that people can read to read the primary sources on all this story?

The Council of Fifty and Joseph Smith's Political Ambitions

Grant Palmer [00:51:49] Well, if they'll go to my home page. I've. I've got everything documented. They can go there. The William Clayton's journal is some of this. And while extracts have been published, the church has not released those journals of Smith, just as they have not released the minutes of the Council of 50. But the sources are in here. You know, I.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Okay, well, you haven't released this. This William Laud is the William Law thing released.

Grant Palmer [00:52:19] The time you get your podcast out, it will be on MormonThink.com under what's New.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:52:27] The allegations is already there, sexual allegations.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] And all the sources will be there. But if someone wants to just get a sense for how Nauvoo ended, what are some good books that at least corroborate the Council of 50 stuff? The Navo Expositor stuff, the polygamy stuff. What are just some good books that people can read to just corroborate a lot of that general history. What would you recommend?

Grant Palmer [00:52:50] Well, Klaus Hansen, Quest for Empire was written, I think in 1967. It's a bit dated, but you can get an awful lot of information on that. There's. But if you want to get in to just the Nauvoo Council of 50, not Utah. Andrew Ehat has done a lot of work. Michael Quinn has done a lot of work. There's a couple of articles in BYU studies on it there.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] It doesn't. Doesn't. No Manoma history kind of COVID generally a lot of this.

Grant Palmer [00:53:21] No, I probably forgotten. I honestly can't remember that. But people ought to read the Navo Expositor. That's a place to start.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] Yeah, it's kind of a primary source. Okay. And I'm sure rough stone rolling covers this too. Right. At least in some detail.

Grant Palmer [00:53:36] Again, I can't remember. I read that so long ago. I'm 70 going on 72 here in the memory. You know, let me just say one more thing about the laws.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Sure.

Grant Palmer [00:53:46] When the laws sat down by August, they sat down and says, my gosh, Joseph Smith has no respect for the Ten Commandments and he has no respect for the Sermon on the Mount. And they went through and indicted Joseph Smith with blasphemy, or using God's name in obeying. That's one of the 10. Committing murder, committing adultery, stealing and robbing from the gentiles, including themselves, bearing false witness and coveting the wives of other men. In other words, they broke six of the Ten Commandments. That's they're indicting him for.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] And where is that written?

Grant Palmer [00:54:22] In my paper.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] Okay. All right.

Grant Palmer [00:54:24] But it's also in. Let's see, it's in William Law's correspondence In August of 1844, 1. One month after Smith dies. Okay, and then he says, and then he says that Joseph Smith quote, was one of the false prophets spoken up by Christ, who had come in sheep's clothing but inwardly be a ravening wolf. His works proved it. He's quoting Matthew 7, 15 and 16. He claimed to be a God, whereas he was only a servant of the devil and as such met his fate. That's one month after Smith, two months after he met his, after he was killed. And then 43 years later when he finally starts talking about it, he hasn't softened his view. He says, the great mistake of my life was having anything to do with Mormonism. I feel it to be a deep disgrace and never speak of it when I can avoid it. For over 40 years, I have almost entirely been, almost been entirely silent on the subject. It's very painful for him. Now, whether you believe him or not, you know, apologists might just say, oh, he's a liar, and that's the end of it. But I think that's why a first rate biography of Law is important, to establish what kind of man he really was. Because I grew up thinking the worst things about some of these men and I'm finding it isn't true.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Yeah. And, and it's not just that. I mean, you know, fine, William Law's dead, like, you know, the. That could be enough. But this whole podcast series that we've talked about so far is basically just focusing on a couple aspects of Joseph's life, right?

Grant Palmer [00:56:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] That's very different from what we've been taught growing up in the church. You know, we're taught this simplified, whitewashed version, and now we've got all this stuff. Now this stuff could be true, could be false, could be partially true, it could be inaccurate. But this is just one set of historical stories and evidence that we have that certainly gives people credible, you know, credible pause or reasons to start questioning, you know, the church's truth claims.

Grant Palmer [00:56:42] That's why they don't want to talk about them.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] Right. And, and what's not fair is that when someone reads this stuff and finds out about it, they start trying to talk in elders Quorum or relief Society and that, that's not acceptable. They try and reach out to family members and friends and shut them down. They shut them down and they say, this is dangerous anti Mormon stuff. Get away from it. And to whatever extent someone tries to, they go to their bishop and say, can you help Me understand this. The bishop's never heard it before. And the bishop treats them like they're sinners and needs to repent and there's no place for them to go. And they. Either they suffer in silence and get depression and anxiety and become mentally ill, or they try and talk publicly and become ostracized and potentially lose their marriage and their spouse and whatever.

Grant Palmer [00:57:33] Yeah. And we have enough. We have a few rogue bishops out there will say to, say, the wife, well, if he doesn't believe, you might as well divorce him. I mean, that's against church council, but there it's happened.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] Oh, absolutely. I know it's still happening in some places. And so, you know, I guess. I guess there's a meta point that we're trying to make here. There is the history about Joseph and William Law, and people can go read the primary sources and decide what they want to. But. But there's a. There's a bigger meta issue that we're covering, and that's that not only did William Law and many, many other people feel like they had a credible reason to leave the church, you know, but also today, people who learn this history feel the same way. And so, you know, this is a real problem that we need to face as a church and as a culture is how do we become aware of the facts and then how do we create space and empathy and support for people who lose their faith? Because I'm sure you could attest it's no fun to lose your faith. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:58:36] It's about the saddest thing that ever happened in my life, other than my wife's first wife's death. I mean, it's just an unbelievable blow.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] And so you're not. You didn't run out and say, what can I do to lose my testimony today? Right.

Grant Palmer [00:58:48] Heavens, no. It's just, you know, my story's not so dramatic. It's just the case of the shelf getting, you know, building two or three shelves, and then they all came crashing down.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Yeah. Because you were. I mean, I assume you were a seminary and institute teacher in good faith.

Guest [00:59:04] You.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] You didn't.

Grant Palmer [00:59:04] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] You didn't dedicate your life to that just so that you could screw the church in the end, right?

Grant Palmer [00:59:09] No, I taught it for 34 years, and I never talked about any of the stuff in my book or what we talk about today. Not that I knew it then, but. No, I was faithful. I was. It's just that simple. If they want to say I was a wolf in sheep's clothing, looks to me like the Laws are saying it was Smith. It was the. You know, and why. Why do they treat us so poorly? You know, your own family will treat you poorly because they don't know and they don't want to know. Ignorance really is the softest pillow and they prefer ignorance. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] Yeah. Well, that. So I appreciate you taking us through this and it's tough stuff to hear. I mean, really, I can't imagine anything more scandalous than what we've covered today. Right. I mean, this is just beyond, beyond whatever I've ever heard.

Grant Palmer [01:00:01] Well, that's why I wrote it up. I mean, he's a member of the first presidency. Do you know anybody who's left the church for these three reasons? Well, no. Did you get death threats? Well, no. Did you get your wife hit on? No. Did you. Did you find out what happens when, when someone declares himself king of the earth and how it starts dictating in temporal policy and all that? I mean, come on, people, they're leaving for none of the reasons that are in my book.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Right, right. And so, so, you know, this guy deserves our love and respect and appreciation and our admiration, not. Not our scorn. Right.

Grant Palmer [01:00:42] Well, like I say, a first rate biography needs to be written. I'm not, I'm not going to defend it, but what I've seen so far, this was a good man. He was called a good man. That's a quote, unquote.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Yeah, yeah.

Grant Palmer [01:00:56] And I see no reason that he wasn't. Now some of the apologists will say, well, he, he once testified in a court in Carthage and he was caught lying under oath and. Well, I think someone needs to answer that piece of work that's apparently on farms.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Sure, sure.

Grant Palmer [01:01:15] I don't know that that discredits him for everything and all the things we've been talking about today.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] If only FARMS were as objective about Joseph Smith's life as they were about his critics. Yes, it seems like they're willing to dig up anything on anyone who might be a critic, but they're not willing to apply the same level of scrutiny

Grant Palmer [01:01:36] to Joseph's own life or anyone who writes a book. Favorable.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] Right, right.

Grant Palmer [01:01:41] They don't scrutinize them like they do critics.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] That's right. That's right. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out at saber-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest [01:02:05] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the sun and joy your hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake soon we'll have. Oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well Sa. Sam. And should we die before our journey's through Happy day All is well we then are free from toil and sorrow to with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this car is swell oh, all is well all is well all is well all is well all

John Dehlin [01:06:01] is well

Guest [01:06:05] oh, all is well La.

Part Three Disclaimer and Palmer's Disfellowshipping

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 326

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hi, this is John with a super brief disclaimer that the topics discussed on today's edition of Mormon Stories Podcast are very sensitive and kind of controversial, and many are going to see them as somewhat critical or negative of Joseph Smith. So please don't listen if you have sensitive ears, if your testimony is sensitive or fragile, or if you're just tired of negative things on Mormon Stories, because this is a tough one. But please know that we're committed on Mormon Stories to being fair and balanced and to be a safe place for believers and non believers. So we'll do our best to make sure that happens. But this one's a tough one. So listen if you feel so inclined, but don't hesitate to put it down if you don't. And now to the wonderful and incomparable Grant Palmer. Thanks a lot. Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org. well, let's, let's just spend the last 10, 15 minutes talking about where you are. So, so last we talked, you had been disfellowshipped. And then, you know, you kind of. I don't want to say what. Silent. But, but, you know, I haven't, I haven't heard a lot from you until the Mormon expression interview. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about your journey since we last talked.

Grant Palmer [00:01:40] Well, I was put on disfellowshipped in December of 2004, and the accusation and

John Dehlin [00:01:49] the claims were what remind us My

Grant Palmer [00:01:52] book, of which only one person of the whole group had read the book and they appointed him to defend the church.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Right, right.

Grant Palmer [00:02:02] It went on six hours and I dictated it to Lavina Anderson. She still has all that and she's so busy she doesn't get around to it. But one of these days she'll write

John Dehlin [00:02:12] the history of that.

Grant Palmer [00:02:13] Well, she, she will give me my notes, but I just wanted you to know they were recorded two or three days after the court.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Okay. Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:02:21] It's very exhausting. Went from 7 in the morning to 1 in the afternoon, and we won't repeat a lot of that. But anyway, so. So now comes 2010, and I had. I had written a two and a half page article that appeared in a very obscure theological journal out of Kansas City, Missouri, and the name of the piece it's on my website is Religious Feeling and Truth. And I just, you know, was just trying to think out loud and put some of my pieces on paper because this is a Baptist seminary. And they thought, well, it would be good to have, you know, something other than from a Baptist. And so, and in fact, Ron Huggins, who's the editor and teaches at this, this theological seminary, we'd had lunch and he kind of indicated, as I recall, that some of the members of the Baptists were going into this feeling thing, you know, the LDS faith. It's through feeling that facts, that fact is found, right? I think that it's through feeling that fact is found and it comes from Doctrine Covenants 9 that you shall feel that it is right. And, and therefore they take that, and they, and that they can justify 3 and 4 year olds getting up in testimony meetings, say I know this and I know that, and they can't even read.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:04:01] But that's the justification for it because they actually believe that is a source of, of knowledge. And I'm just saying, is it, is it really true? Moroni 10, 10, 5. That you shall know the truth of all things by the Holy Ghost and because a lot of people are claiming this kind of stuff, the evangelicals, the, the, the, the Muslims, you know, different Christian churches.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Everybody.

Grant Palmer [00:04:26] Yeah, everybody. And so I, I just was, you know, evaluating some of that. Is this what we want to hang our hat on? Because it seems as the intellectual constructs get kicked out from under the LDS faith, they've gone more and more to this feeling. I mean, I have had bishops and stake presidents in my, my front room tell me that that's what they go on, you know, and therefore they don't really need to look into anything. And anyway, I wrote this article and boy, this was in the spring of 2010, and there's a stake president right on my door. Wow. And he'd been on my door once before when I appeared on the PBS Frontline.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Now, had you promised to stay silent or had you.

Grant Palmer [00:05:07] Oh, no, I never, I never promised. In fact, my stake president before this one, he thought, well, you're doing pretty good. And so we won't, we won't do anything about this. CBS had indicated they, they wanted maybe me to appear on 60 Minutes and, but I wasn't excommunicated and I think they were not interested because of that, which is, I didn't want to be excommunicated. So anyway, there he is on my doorstep with this article and, and then he proceeds to tell me that he must hold a court on me. Well, as soon as he said that, I think it came from on high. High meaning not so much church headquarters. Church headquarters, not, not from God. But that's an interpretation, I'm sure. But, and so he must hold a church court. And I thought, well, I, I had a bishop's handbook and it doesn't say that my bishop was quite sympathetic. I think he wanted, because I offered at that point to cease and desist. I, I had already given all my papers to the University of Utah special collections several years ago. And so I was through. And so I says, look, why don't you just let me fade away and, and I won't do anymore, and I won't say anymore and I won't appear anymore and just let it go. And I said, no, we want to hold a court on you. So, so they scheduled the court and I handed in my resignation.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] So you resigned? Why, why didn't you go through the court?

Grant Palmer [00:06:41] Several reasons. One, I'd already been through a six hour ordeal. He assured me it wouldn't take that long this time. But secondly, I didn't, I didn't want rumors spread around about, you know, why I was being excommunicated because the church never says, they, they just say, well, we can't talk about that. So if I was a little proactive, I thought I. But specifically to answer your question, my bishop thought I had a 50, 50 chance of surviving this second court. And I thought, well, maybe I've got about one in five chance. And, and later. And then finally I started asking the right question. And the bishop asked the stake president outright, what does Grant need to remain a member of the church? You know, not to get a temple recommend, not to hold a position, just to be on the records of the church. And that's when he said he's got to repudiate essentially every chapter in my book, an insider's view, and quote, regain his testimony, unquote. And regain my testimony. Wow. And so I thought, well, that would simply emasculate me as a person. And no one's ever come forward and says I'm wrong. They've attacked me, but they haven't really gone into it. And I've always been, if I were wrong, I would correct things. But I've never had that, that offer, anyone take me up on that offer. And so I thought, well, this is futile. And the bishop then says, yeah, you have, you have no chance of surviving a court. So I handed my resignation in and my family, I didn't I still would prefer people keep it to themselves, but now that we're talking, I suppose that won't occur. But I do have an aged mother and my children. I am concerned about that, but I guess I won't worry about that. It's going to get out eventually anyway, so might as well be on your program. I was going to do it next week with the BBC, but I thought, well, what's a week?

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Do your kids know you're. You've resigned?

Grant Palmer [00:09:02] No, that's what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] I.

Grant Palmer [00:09:04] That's why I've been really quiet about it. And I was asked to speak at a Unitarian Universalist Society meeting about, oh, two months ago now. And that's where I gave both my story and also the William and Jane Lawrence, why they left the church paper.

Life After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Right. And so how do you feel? How do you feel no longer being a member?

Grant Palmer [00:09:33] Well, that wasn't my first choice, but, you know, it's kind of nice not to have to be looking over your shoulder because they're always, they're always showing up, you know, on my doorstep. I mean, when I, When I appeared on Front Line, he was right there. He says, you violated your. This is a new state president. You violated what you. You promised with the other stake president. I says, but my bishop, a different bishop, then he came to my rescue and he says, well, just because Grant's book appeared on that program doesn't mean he took it to the interview and promoted it. That was their, that was Helen Whitney's decision, not Palmer's.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] What promise was he referring to?

Grant Palmer [00:10:12] Well, he thought that I was not to promote my book. And by having the book appear literally on PBS Frontline, he thought that I had violated that, that charge of the court. Promote my book.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] And you had. You had never agreed to that, to, to not promote your book, is that right?

Grant Palmer [00:10:37] No, I, I pretty well had. I mean, it wasn't something to agree to. They just says this, you know, don't. Don't promote your book. And so I did.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] They told you not to?

Grant Palmer [00:10:46] Yeah, in the. Just don't. That was their understanding. Don't promote my book. And so I didn't. But he was over there on my doorstep saying, I'm. I'm. You know, you're. You're history. He's already. He has quite a bit of fire in him that way. But he, he backed down once. My bishop, who was an attorney at the time, he says, well, you can't blame Grant because they put a picture of his book to promote it on, on the PBS special. I mean, I, I spoke with Helen Whitney for two hours and I was on there less than two minutes. So, you know, I don't know what they were going to put on there, but I did not bring a book with me that was their decision to put the book on.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Right, right. And it's just not fun to always have to worry about this kind of stuff. Right.

Grant Palmer [00:11:32] Well, it, I, I feel relief that I don't have to keep looking over my shoulder, if you know what I mean.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] And why, why do you say you would have preferred to remain a member? Like, do you, do you, do you believe the truth claims of the church, that it's the one true church with exclusive authority?

Grant Palmer [00:11:51] Oh, I just, I don't know. I just, I don't know why, I really don't, I can't answer that question. I just, I just as soon have faded away. But, and that, by the way, since that decision, that is why I have been doing what I'm doing. I thought, well, I don't have much to lose now, do I? I mean, so I am appearing with John de Lynn on this podc, appeared with John Larsen on Mormon Expressions. I appeared on Ancient Paths on two different hour programs, one on, on the Mormon Jesus versus the New Testament Jesus and another on my, my Book and Insiders view and this BBC thing that I'm doing in a week or 10 days, which is in conjunction with, as I understand it, Romney's rise and the probable nominee of the Republican Party. And they want to know from me, as I understand it, how scholars treat the church. So there you go.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] How the church treats scholars. Right?

Grant Palmer [00:12:49] How does, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] You know, I want to ask you about this really quickly. We talked a lot. You know, you came out after an insider's view with the book the Incomparable Jesus. And, and I think we talked about this some. But I'm just curious if your views have changed. A lot of people who deconstruct Mormonism quickly deconstruct Christianity and end up atheists or agnostics. They find similar problems with the Bible and the historicity of Jesus that they do with the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Do you still cling to a literal Jesus and a literal resurrection and the Bible is the word of God? Or have you softened that over the years or.

Grant Palmer [00:13:32] Well, short answers. No.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] No, you don't believe or no, you haven't softened?

Grant Palmer [00:13:38] No, I haven't softened. I still believe. I, I, my book on incomparable Jesus was written in part because I don't think Jesus really defended theology much. He didn't sit down and say today we're going to talk about theology of the Godhead and the nature of man and whether there's three beings he didn't do, do that from what we have of him. And we could go into a lot of, a lot of pagan influences that have undoubtedly influenced Christianity, but a lot of that so called pagan ideas originating, you know, with Osiris and on down. I think the people need to take a closer look at that. That, that stuff started appearing in the middle 19th century. And Ronald Higgins, I'm trying to get him to write a book on it, he says it's bogus. He says they've just made up parallels that it's not quite what you think it is. And I've read two or three books on that. But I don't want to go there right now. But help me get back on.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] You still believe in God?

Grant Palmer [00:14:42] I believe in God and I've had enough experiences with Christ to believe he's so. As for the magic in Christianity, I have a good friend who says, well, if it isn't true, it ought to be true. The Sermon on the Mount, whether he gave it or not.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] But you still believe in an afterlife and a resurrection?

Grant Palmer [00:15:00] I do.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:15:02] And my thinking is, here's just one idea. If you look around the world, I mean we've only had the industrial revolution, what, 300 years in the electronic age, maybe 100 years, about 100 years before that. You know, they're a lot the same. Look how much progress the world, and especially the United States has made in the last hundred years with electronic everything. Well, this universe is something like 13.7 billion years old. And, and they, they trained that Hubble, Hubble telescope on a 1 square inch of space that looked black to them from the Hubble's point of view. And after 10 and 12 days respectively in two different 1 inch squares, they found 10,000 galaxies in there. Or is it 10,000? Yeah, $10,000 in a. 10,000 galaxies in a square inch. And so they've been revising up the number of galaxies in the world. It's our own galaxy has jumped in the number of stars from what was 100, I can't remember, 100 billion to 4, 3 to 400 billion. The number of galaxies have jumped. And that's been the way man is misunderstood since Galileo. They've always underestimated the situation. Now here's my point. Let's suppose a civilization has been around and leave God out of. Just suppose it evolved somewhere 13 billion years ago, is it possible that, that society has found out how to resurrect someone from the dead after three days? It seems to me that we get a little bit hasty here. We get a little bit eager to just say, well, it's all a fable and it's all God and what have you. Jesus did say he came from another place. If you take that literally, we don't know where he came from. But if you take him, if you take him at his face value, he says, I, I, you know, I, I'm an interloper. I've come here to do my mission and I'm leaving, I'm going back anyway. That's one way of looking at it. So let's not be so quick to, to, to write God off. And I said this to the Unitarian Universalists and as you know, a lot of them don't particularly believe in the reality of Christ. Also, I would say my own experience and, and critics would say, oh, it's, you know, it's nothing there. But I've had enough experiences that I can't explain away. And they're not just feelings, they're more than feelings. And if you read my Jesus book, the Incomparable Jesus, you'll see what I'm talking about.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Okay, so you're saying that your testimony of God and Jesus are based on more than feelings.

Grant Palmer [00:17:53] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] It's based on evidence, scriptural evidence, or other experiences that go beyond feelings.

Grant Palmer [00:18:02] But I'm not going to defend all the theology in the book. To me, Jesus doesn't, he's not really interested in theology. He's interested in behavior. He's more interested in, in right behavior than he is right thinking. And almost all of the reasons we have all these different Christian churches is because someone has a theological notion that's a little different than the other church. And it's generally stuff that Jesus had nothing or little to talk about or say on the text.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Of course, of course.

Grant Palmer [00:18:32] So, you know, I like the ethics. I've written my book from a point of view of what he wants us to do. We've got to have a set of ethics somewhere, I think to function in our own life. And whether you choose to say they're from God or not. So what? Again, my friend says whether the Sermon on the Mount was given by Jesus, I'd like to think it is, but if it's not, it should be true.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Right, okay. Well, I'm going to, we're going to close with this. This is kind of a two part question, but let's say that you were standing up in front of that stake presidency and the, and the High Council, but let's just say that you had audience with the prophet and the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 and even the general membership. I would like to hear you close with two things. What are the things that you do believe in? You know, what are the aspects of life, you know, your morality, integrity, you know, whatever. What are the truths or the values that you still hold and believe in? And if you had some final remarks that you wanted to give to the church and its membership, you know, why don't we close with those two things? Are you comfortable doing that?

Grant Palmer [00:19:43] Yeah, I think so. I don't know if I'll give you the answer you're totally looking for, but.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] No, I'm looking for what, I'm looking for what you think.

Grant Palmer [00:19:51] I think the church is heading for a smaller, more controlling church. But it will depend on who is in the key leadership positions in 20, 30 years, whatever, when a tipping point comes. And maybe it will come sooner or later, especially with the stuff you've been telling me about what you've amassed and why people are leaving and who's leaving and the education level and all of that. So I think it will depend then whether they will make any changes or how much change they'll make. That's their problem. And a problem it is. It's going to continue to have a brain drain in the church unless they, they start to deal with this. In order to get me to go back to the LDS Church, I'd have to see a whole lot more Jesus Christ than I see there now. And just because it's the name of the church of Jesus Christ isn't enough for me. I mean, after all, what was the name of Hitler's Nazi party? The Democratic Republic of Germany. Well, there's nothing democratic or republic about Nazi Germany under Hitler. So the idea that you're have the name, it sounds great. Isn't enough. I, you know, I accept that the church is, is, is a Christian church. It's, I don't think they're focusing on much of the behaviors and the, and the, the attitudes and the, even the doctrinal emphasis of Jesus. Jesus talked a lot about being born again. He talked about. And if you start comparing the Mormon Jesus with the, with the New Testament Jesus, you'll find quite a, quite a difference. But I, I suspect that at some point somebody's going to get excited enough to say what are we going to do about this? And, and I don't know if they'll have to wait until enough people have left before they wake up and deal with this. But it will depend who's in the leadership at the time. Maybe they will try to do a historical model. If they follow a historical model. You know, there were Luther and the Reformers and then there was pushback by the Counter Reformation of the Catholic Church. Cleaning up what they could. I don't know that it worked very well, but at least they tried. Reapprise me of the question again. I, I would tell them that they can make, they can make, they need to quietly, silently move to Christ in a, in a major way. And most of the Mormon people will follow. That's by my experience. I don't think it's. They, people think it's a difficult decision. To me it's clear enough that I think it would be an easy decision of what is right, what is. The LDS people deserve to know the truth. And for those who want to hear it and find it, it's really easy. The Internet is to the LDS Church what the Gutenberg Bible was to the Catholic Church. People started reading and saying, gee, you're not following what Jesus taught here. We've been reading the New Testament and they had a lot of trouble with that. And the Mormon Church thought they had all this stuff buried and it's not buried at all. It's alive and well and getting more alive and well.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Right.

Grant Palmer [00:23:24] I don't, you know all it's, it's the great democratizer, it's the killer of organized religions who have totalitarian basis. What would I tell them? Move to Christ and let the consequences follow. Yeah, yes, you're going to lose some, but you're going to lose, you're losing a lot of people anyway. The church is hemorrhaging, you know that. I know that. It will only get stronger. But right now we have prophets that don't prophesy, seers that don't see anything, and revelators that don't reveal. And I think history in 40 to 50 years will not be kind to their lack of courage and leadership in the church. The historians are going to come off better, I think. But eventually, you know, things will change if things keep getting more difficult for the church. And I Predict the next 25 years is going to be a rough time for the church. But Gorbachev, you know, came out of a, out of the KJB and he even saw the handwriting on the wall of the Soviet Union becoming a third class power. And the changes were accordingly Made same with China. They did not believe that America put a man on the moon in 69, and they withheld it from their people, as I understand it. But they realize we're slipping away, and if we want a piece of this pie, we better get our act together. And they're trying to do that now, at least economically, but maintain totalitarian control. That'll be an interesting experiment to watch.

Final Reflections and Message to Members

John Dehlin [00:25:04] So what do you. What would you say to a member. What would you say to the members of the church other than if you want to. You want to learn, you can learn. Is there anything else you'd say to them?

Grant Palmer [00:25:17] Well, it doesn't much make much difference what you say until they start asking questions. That's my experience. So, no, I don't. I don't generally talk to people unless they show some interest. I mean, I've asked questions like, would you want to know about the church if it wasn't what it claims to be? And I've had people say no. Well, that answers that question, doesn't it?

John Dehlin [00:25:39] Well, if someone would. Should say. If someone were to say to you, I'm happy, I. I love the church and I'm enjoying it, so why. Why should I. Why should I learn more and. And risk losing my faith, what would you say?

Grant Palmer [00:25:52] Stay with it. If that's what makes you happy, stay with it. I don't want to get too personal here, but I have a. I have a close relative. She's 21, 22, and she's gone. She's gone through a lot, and she's now come back to the church, and I'm the first one to say, wow, okay. And she's. She straightened up her act and. And the church is very good for people that's coming in out of the cold, out of the drug culture, out of the, you know, out of dysfunctional families and so forth. They're very good that way.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Or poverty. Right? Or poverty.

Grant Palmer [00:26:25] Poverty, yeah. So, no, I. I thankful for the church, for my youth. I mean, there were a lot of good things, but there's an underbelly of the church, and most LDS don't know it because all they see is the leaders up in suits and ties, smiling, giving little messages twice a year. And they don't encounter the problems because they never. They never break the. They not break the rules. They. They just don't ever look into things, and they don't ever write anything, and they don't ever, you know, so they. They don't know, and they. Maybe they don't want to know. I Don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] Okay. And so finally, let's just end with what you do believe in. If you could bear your testimony now of truths or goodness or whatever things you do believe in, what do you believe in?

Grant Palmer [00:27:13] Well, I believe in integrity and honesty, and I think if you're not. That you're emasculated as a person. I also believe that in Jesus Christ and especially the New Testament, I think Paul had a few innovations there, but basically the ethical life, I think, is worth living. I accredit good things to God because of my experiences and what have you. But I guess I, I mean, I mean, if you want to go into politics, which I don't think you do, I. But, but that's my, my core beliefs, that the church has helped me to become who I am. And I think it's important that people who leave that they, they give their children some core values or else when they get to be 12 or 13 or 10 or 11, they start associating with people who haven't taught their kids any core values or haven't taught, and then, then they drift off into problems. So I think it's imperative if you, you're going to drop out of the church, that you have some kind of a plan for giving your kids the same kind of values that you got in the church. Now, that's the, that's the upside of the church's valid. There's a downside, and we've. And somebody needs to write a book about the cultural and social problems of the church. There are a number.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Right. So integrity is kind of what you stand for most, it sounds like.

Grant Palmer [00:28:49] Well, that's, that's, I think, why I did what I did. I just couldn't sit by and watch this because they keep pushing it. They keep, they don't just let it go and quietly, you know, change. They, you know, get up and, you know, vilify people who write and defend things that are indefensible and promote things that aren't true. You know, I mean, I originally thought I could go to church, but my gosh, it was much harder than I thought because so much of what's said there just isn't true. And if I, if I made a comment, it just hurts somebody else. And if I didn't make a comment, I got frustrated, so I found it easier just not to go. And I haven't been active in the church for about five, six years.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Right, right. Well, Grant Palmer, I want to thank you for your work. I thank you for your publications. Thank you for your courage. I'm going to call it courage. Some people don't like it when I call you courageous, but I think you have a story that's courageous. I think you've taken a lot of hits. I think in some ways, you're a pioneer for standing up for what you believe in, and everyone can read the history and draw their own conclusions. But I think your conclusions are reasonable ones, and I think your scholarship is credible. And I think you're a personality that deserves attention and consideration. And so, just on behalf of all those who've appreciated what you do, I just want to thank you for your life and your example of courage and honesty and truth telling.

Grant Palmer [00:30:35] Well, thank you, John. Appreciate you having me on.

John Dehlin [00:30:38] Yeah. And maybe we'll have you back to talk about other stuff as you do more history.

Grant Palmer [00:30:45] Well, I don't know how much more I'm going to do, but if I feel interested in it, I. I do. I'm doing another project, but that's. That's another day.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] All right, Grant. Well, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories.

Grant Palmer [00:30:59] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:31:00] And for our listeners, you can check us out@mormonstories.org, you can talk about this conversation. And I just want to make an open invitation if there are any apologists or believers or historians, secular or religious, who want to come on and give their own version of Joseph Smith's final years and William Law and the Expositor. If there's someone who thinks that they can debunk William Law or challenge some of these fundamental assertions in. In any credible way, we're willing to entertain all sides. But in the meantime, this is a record that we'll put down and will encourage further discussion@mormonstories.org and again, we'll thank Grant Palmer for what he's done.

Grant Palmer [00:31:42] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] Thanks, Grant.

Grant Palmer [00:31:44] Bye.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@savor-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to use, this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the censure your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high Tis not so I live why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake? Soon we'll have? Let's tell a tale? Oh, all is well? All is well? Oh, all is well? All is well? And should we die before our journey's through? Happy day? All is well? We that are free from toil and sorrow too? With the just we shall dwell? But if our lives are spared Again to see the saints there rest obtain? I will make this chorus swell? Oh, I'll resort? Well? All is well? All is well? All is well? All is well? Oh, all is well.

Grant Palmer [00:36:16] In the.

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