Welcome and Conference Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] 1, 2, 3.

Wade Walker [00:00:04] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

Guest [00:00:18] The 2011 Salt Lake City Mormon Stories Conference was brought to you by the Salt Lake City Mormon Stories Support community, found on Facebook and also by the Open Stories foundation and by the generous Support you our listeners. To join or start a Mormon Stories support community in your area, please go to MormonStories.org and click on the Support Communities tab to host a regional conference in your city like this one. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com for more information on how to host a conference. Finally, to keep this podcast and all of these communities and projects alive, please donate today@mormonstories.org oh, and please enjoy the conference.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Born and raised in Franklin, Idaho, she's a Benson and a Parkinson. And when I just started having my crisis of faith when I was at byu, mom became a Dialogue and a Sunstone subscriber. And she's been attending Sunstone faithfully and reading Dialogue for, I don't know, 20 plus years.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] And I can't tell you how meaningful and affirming it's been to have a parent who understands, and I actually have two parents, if three if you count her husband. But to have parents who understand your journey and don't judge you and support you all along the way, I couldn't. I probably could never have done the podcast. If I had parents that ridiculed and judged me and made me feel terrible, I wouldn't have felt comfortable even starting. So, mom, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] I want to spend a little time recognizing the planners. Jared and Katrina, you guys have already been introduced. This is Jared Anderson. This is Katrina and Ann Peffer. They're the ones who got this all going. You guys stand up and let us give you a round of applause.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] There are people here from as far away as North Carolina, Chicago, and even as far as the United Kingdom. Someone came from the United Kingdom, particularly for this conference. It's very humbling, but thank you all for coming. Even if you live a block away, I want to recognize just a few other people. There are a few people here that are currently serving on the Open Stories Foundation Board of directors Jackie MacArthur and Ashley Murbach.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] There's Ashley. Please stand up. And Jackie in the back. Anyone else on the board of directors that I'm forgetting? The other three aren't here, right? Except myself. They're the ones who helped get this foundation started. That's kind of the way that we're able to make a lot of this possible. So Ashley and Jackie, thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] We have a few Mormon liberal superstars among us. I want everyone who's been featured at some point on a Mormon Stories or Mormon Matters podcast to please stand up. So we've got Dustin Jones in the back. We just released his podcast the past few weeks. We've got Perry Krall. We've got Dan Witherspoon, who runs Mormon Matters, and Jackie in the back again,

Wade Walker [00:04:24] who,

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Who did a podcast about mixed faith couples. It was very good. And her husband Eric, of course, has been a great support for her. I want to thank Richard Holdman in the back. If you guys have enjoyed those Carolyn Pearson or Paul Toscano or Margaret Trescano or Sean McCraney videos, it was Richard that did the video and the audio for all those productions. He's in the back.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] Thank you. And of course, we have our distinguished panel. We have Jared Anderson, Joanna Brooks, Margaret and Carolyn Pearson. Thank you so much for being here. And they're all superstars, and you know them. Thank you. This is going to seem a little bit odd or out of place, especially for the person I'm about to mention. And because she's a member of the media, she's probably not going to like it that I'm going to mention her, but I'm going to mention her anyway.

Honoring Mormon Pioneers and Founders

John Dehlin [00:05:29] There's a very important Mormon pioneer that's here who is one of the founders of Sunstone, one of the first original founders of Sunstone, first editor of the magazine and someone who ran the conferences for many, many years. And these were during the days where it was a lot harder to do a lot of the things that we're doing now. Her name is Peggy Fletcher Stack, and she's a little bit anonymous because she now has been writing for the Deseret New or. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] She's been writing for the Salt Lake Tribune for many, many years. There's a former journalist from the Deseret News here as well. He's in a beer. He has a beard.

Guest 2 [00:06:07] Where is he?

John Dehlin [00:06:10] I had that on my mind. Peggy's been writing for religious stuff for the Salt Lake Tribune for many, many years. But Peggy is a true pioneer of, you know, and contributed significantly to why we're all able to be here today. And I just want to recognize Peggy. So I'm introducing this panel. But before I introduce the panel, we're going to have a special musical number. And the musical number is by a gentleman named Wade Walker. He is going to. He's going to perform a song called Bless the Broken Road. So take it away, Wade.

Wade Walker [00:06:58] I'M really happy to be here. I was invited by my friend Randall to come and share my talent with you all. And I was thinking about why I chose this song in particular, and the reason why was because even though the song is speaking about finding true love among the paths of life, I really think it is a good message as well for finding ourselves and finding what we believe in, what we feel, what we think, where our faith is, and all those good things as we travel through life. And so I hope that inspires you as I sing. Thank you.

Wade Walker [00:07:52] I set out on a narrow way Many years ago Hoping I would find true love along the broken road But I got lost a time or two Wiped my brow, kept pushing through I couldn't see how every sign pointed straight

Guest 2 [00:08:18] to you

Wade Walker [00:08:22] Every long lost dream led me to where you are Lovers who broken my heart they were like northern stars Pointing me on my way into your loving arms this much I know is true that God bless the broken road and led me straight to you yes, he did.

Wade Walker [00:09:08] I think about the years I spent just passing through I'd like to have the time I lost and give it back to you but you just smile and see Take my hand, you've been there, you understand it's all part of a grander plan that is coming true Every long lost dream led me to where you are Others who broken my heart they were like northern stars Pointing me on my way into your loving arms this much I know is true that God bless the broken road that led me straight to you.

Wade Walker [00:10:25] And now I'm just rolling home into my lover's arms this much I know is true that God bless the broken road and let me straight to you. That God bless the broken road Then led me straight to you.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] Beautiful. Thank you, wade. In the field of developmental psychology, stages are really popular things to talk about. Some guy named Erickson developed these stages of human development, and lots of other psychologists have taken their own approaches at trying to develop stages for various phases of life or various conditions. And we all know about. Many of us know about Fowler's stages of faith.

Stages of Thinking About Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:12:14] I think that there are stages involved in how we as Mormons think about those who have gone before us who have been excommunicated, and specifically about the September 6th or the people that were kind of fighting for us during those kind of years in the late 70s, 80s, and early 90s.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] I'm saying all this because we're about to introduce Margaret Toscano and Jared, and you guys already know Carolyn and Joanna. The first phase of. Of processing A member of the September 6th or those during that time is sort of one of righteous indignation.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] It's a stage where you label these people as dangerous, and it's one filled with judgment. For those of you who don't know, several Mormon intellectuals were excommunicated in September of 1993 for things that they wrote or said or felt or believed about things that were a little bit controversial at the time.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] So that first stage of righteous indignation is the most common. It's the way most of Mormonism who know about the September 6th probably look at these people as dangerous and bad and with a lot of judgment. Then if your sensitivity sort of wax a little bit progressive, then you start developing, you know, you start moving on to stage two, which is sort of curiosity.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] You're like, huh, I wonder what they were. Wonder what they were trying to do and what happened there. But of course, it brings with the judgment as well, because these people, after all, are heretics and apostates. Then after curiosity, you move to the stage of kind of liberal appreciation for the September 6th, and you kind of look at them and you say, well, what they did was bold and courageous, but if they could have just been a little bit less angry, if they could have just been a little bit more careful, if they maybe could have been a little bit more diplomatic, they would have been much more effective, and they would have helped a lot more people.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] So we're grateful for them, but we're probably not going to embrace them or we're probably going to keep marginalizing them or keep our distance. Maybe that's the third phase. But then at some point, when you really dig into these issues and you really learn the history and the pain of those who are marginalized and ostracized, and that fit on the margins of Mormonism, you know, feminists, homosexuals, intellectuals, many others.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] When you start really feeling the pain that these people feel and experience by being on the margins, you move to that fourth stage. And that's just a stage of gratitude. And I'd like all those who are willing to join with me to please stand and thank Margaret Toscano for all that she's done for us.

Margaret Toscano [00:15:39] It.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] And Margaret, that extends to Paul and Lavina and Lynn Whitesides, Michael Quinn, Maxine Hanks, and many others. I also want to add that there are many who weren't excommunicated who were just as much in the battle. Obviously, you guys know that Carolyn Pearson was. Was touring the country with Mother War of the Morning around that same time. Somehow she escaped.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] She must have an angel watching over her or a really good friend that sits high up in the church hierarchy. But somehow she was able to escape that. And I just want to give my personal thanks to Jordan Brooks. I was at BYU from 87 to 93, and I had not brought to Mormonism my Mormonism, the intellectual rigor or the discipline to really even understand the issues at that time. So because of my mission experience, I became aware of the student review and I became aware of voice, and I became aware of people like Cecilia Farr and Gail Houston. And I watched Joanna Brooks with this kind of curious intrigue and fascination from the sidelines.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] But in no way did I understand how incredible it was to have a person like her at a university with so much that was at stake, who had so much of an emotional and an intellectual investment in the church to be standing up at that time, trying to.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Trying to talk about these issues openly. And she took a really big personal hit as a result as well. And so I want to thank you, Joanna, for

Guest 3 [00:17:58] us.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] So I guess my final thanks is to all of you because many of you support Mormon stories and Mormon matters through your financial contributions. And this absolutely would not be possible without your contributions. It's the way that I fund graduate school. It's the way that we pay for the venue and all the materials and the web costs and everything that we do. So thank you all so much who have contributed to Mormon stories. Thank you. So I'm sorry for that introduction. That wasn't planned and I ate up a lot of our moderating time, but I just felt like I had to say those things. So we have these four special guests with us. You all know Carolyn and Joanna. Margaret is a assistant professor.

Guest 4 [00:18:56] Still.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Assistant professor. I don't mean still. I just want to make sure I didn't get it wrong. Assistant professor at the University of Utah. She focuses in classics. I think her specialty is Greece and Greek.

Guest [00:19:10] Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:19:12] Ancient, ancient civilization. I do everything she does. So I wanted to make sure and introduce Margaret and also Jarrett Anderson is an amazing bright light along with his wife Katrina, that have burst onto the scene of Mormon thought and discussion just in the past, I don't know, six months or so. But Jared is completing his PhD at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He studied under Bart Ehrman, who's the scholar that wrote Jesus Interrupted and probably many other important scholarly works. But Jared has an amazing grasp of the New Testament. We've interviewed him on Mormon Stories. It's a fantastic seven hour series on the New Testament, it's brilliant.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] And Jared is just an important thinker and an important force and supporter of what we're all trying to do. And so I'm really excited to have them all here. So to begin, I guess I wanted to give Margaret and Jared a little bit of time to just share some of their initial feelings. The theme of this panel is navigating an open approach to Mormonism. And Joanna and Carolyn have already set that tone so nicely.

Panel Opens: Being in the Mormon Majority

John Dehlin [00:20:28] But you know, if you think about it, we are in the majority in Mormonism. And what I mean by that is, as far as I understand it, if you create this category of Mormon that has either left the church or is in the church, but has kind of liberal or progressive or kind of even open minded tendencies or sensitivities, that makes up more than 2/3 of the population of everyone who's living on the earth that has ever been baptized into the LDS Church or any of the other restoration branches.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] So there's this weird sense that we kind of feel like we're in the minority, but in the sense of from a global perspective, we are in the majority from that standpoint, even though it doesn't feel that way. But, but many of you are here because in your experiences with the LDS church, something broke and left within you this deep, gaping, empty chasm you miss.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] If you're still going to church, maybe it's not always a pleasant experience for you. Maybe talks that are given make you feel sad or angry at times. Maybe you are gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgendered and you've come to learn that the church isn't a place that welcomes you anymore. Maybe you've read the wrong history books or got a little bit too interested in archaeology or anthropology or some other element of American history, and you found yourself unable to bridge the gap between the traditional faith that you were taught and the facts and the data that you've come to grasp. And regardless of where you are on that, or maybe you're a feminist, or maybe you're an intellectual or whatever, when your heart becomes broken by the disappointment of the church not living up to an unfair, unrealistic caricature that somehow you inherited through no one's fault, but just through the way that we learn as Mormons, once that gap opens up, there's a spiritual gap, there's an emotional gap, there's a community gap, there's sometimes a moral gap, there's an identity gap.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] And sometimes that chasm is so deep that it can lead to intense pain and Sadness and turmoil. And what we're here today is to figure out how to start filling that gap for us, spiritually, intellectually, community wise, culturally. There's got to be a way to fill that gap.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] And it has nothing about judging anybody, criticizing anybody. It's not angry. This doesn't come from an angry place. This doesn't come from a vindictive place. This comes from a place of love for Mormonism and for our experiences. I would bet that there's not a person here that didn't love their experience within Mormonism at some level, or you would not be here. Hate doesn't. If there's hate at all, it doesn't arrive in a place where there wasn't love to begin with. Usually. Usually. And so in some sense, we all love Mormonism and are trying to find a way to cling to it, if not through the institutional church, through our identities and through our relationships.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] And so that's what this panel's about. I'm going to invite Margaret to say a few words, maybe take five, 10 minutes, whatever she's comfortable doing. I would just love her to share just some initial reflections on how she feels about what's been said so far and her experience here. I'm going to ask Jared to do the same. And then we're going to open it up to questions from me and from you. And so, without any further ado, Margaret Toscano.

Margaret Toscano [00:24:33] Thank you. So is the microphone working? Am I heard? Am I fine? Okay, good. First of all, I'm so touched by both John's introduction and by your very kind standing ovation. It's really funny. I get very nervous about being in the spotlight, even though I've been in the spotlight a lot, partly because I start counting up all my own flaws. Right. And thinking about my weaknesses.

Margaret Toscano [00:25:11] I've certainly never thought of myself as either a pioneer or as somebody who's courageous. I think my husband sometimes tells me that I'm very stubborn. Maybe I'm more stubborn than courageous. But I appreciate very much the support that I felt from all of you with that.

Personal Journeys, Identity, and Regret

Margaret Toscano [00:25:34] I was thinking there were several questions that John asked us to think about as well. Of course, both Carolyn's and Joanna's wonderful talks. And I would like to respond to a little bit of that and also talk about, just briefly, how I see Mormon identity.

Margaret Toscano [00:25:53] Because for me, I think, like many of you, I've really struggled with who I am and how I'm Mormon and how I can claim that. And that's a very important part of my own Journey. So this whole theme of pioneers, I've been thinking about it. And of course, as the person who studies languages, I always have to look up the origin of words, right?

Margaret Toscano [00:26:16] Jared knows this. He took grief from me. So I was very interested at the word pioneer. And, of course, the meaning of pioneer is often the person who begins something or kind of carves out new territory, who is innovative, and the first that does something is the pioneer. But when I looked at the root of the word, it said that it came. At least the dictionaries that I checked said that the word comes from a Middle French word that has to do with foot soldier.

Margaret Toscano [00:26:48] And I love this sort of paradox. I like paradoxes. I wrote a book about it once. And I like the paradox of the idea that you're sort of the forger, the one that goes out front, that is brave and courageous and you take the first step, but also the idea of the foot soldier where you're the one that's plodding along and you never give up, right? That no matter what happens and the trials and the things that come along, you kind of keep going along and you don't give up on things. And I think that what we're talking about with Mormon identity really both includes both of those ideas of this pioneer, that both here we are, we're trying to forge new territory as a group, that we want to have a Mormon community that is more inclusive.

Margaret Toscano [00:27:40] We want to claim our Mormon identity. And yet, really, I see a lot of this as that ability of endurance where we endure a lot of things and we kind of plod along and we keep going no matter what. And I certainly feel like that that's been true with my own journey.

Margaret Toscano [00:28:01] One of the questions that John also asked us to think about was what we were most proud about in our own journey of being a pioneer and maybe what we most regret. And as I was thinking about this, I thought about my excommunication, and it's interesting, John was talking about the September

Guest 5 [00:28:21] 6th,

Margaret Toscano [00:28:24] which happened in the September of 1993, where there were six prominent Mormon intellectuals, feminists, that were excommunicated in that period. And I actually wasn't one of them. However, that summer, the summer of 1993, I was threatened with a church court. So in a sense, it began with me. And I was given a letter by my stake president and my bishop. And in this letter, I was told that I had to be silent. I was given an ultimatum. The ultimatum was that I was not allowed to. And it was really broad. The ultimatum was that I was not allowed to discuss, write, talk about anything to do with church history or doctrine in any forum, or they would hold a church court on me.

Margaret Toscano [00:29:20] So they asked me to be silent. And I think the thing I'm most proud about is that I didn't obey. And maybe the thing I regret most of all is that I didn't get more angry. My husband's always criticized for being too angry, but I tried very hard not to be angry, although I later discovered that I was angry.

Margaret Toscano [00:29:52] And I think anger sometimes is a good thing because it has to do with a recognition of injustice. So I was threatened at that time, but they didn't actually go through with my court until seven years later in 2000.

Margaret Toscano [00:30:06] And that's a whole other long story about why the delay. But finally, in the year 2000, they held a court on me. And interestingly, they brought as the primary evidence against me that I was an apostate. The evidence was this letter that I had been given in 1993 and that I had been told that I should be silent, and I wasn't. And this was a sign that I was an apostate because I did not obey my church leaders.

Margaret Toscano [00:30:37] And so for me, though, it's a very defining moment, the idea that, no, I am not going to be silent. I'm going to keep talking as a Mormon woman, as a Mormon, and I'm going to claim my identity as a Mormon.

Margaret Toscano [00:30:53] Well, I have to say, though, that I, like most of you, I've gone through a huge struggle over this, that I have gone through all sorts of agony about what it means to be a Mormon and whether or not I even wanted to be a Mormon after what happened to me.

Margaret Toscano [00:31:14] I have to say that I went through a lot of anger, a lot of feelings of betrayal, a lot of sadness. And an interesting thing happened, which is another tension I want to talk about just briefly, that I was thinking about in response to both Carolyn and Joanna, that there's this tension between freedom being free, and having bonds being bound.

Margaret Toscano [00:31:41] I remember after I was excommunicated, even before, after the September six, and kind of being marginalized in the church and then finally being excommunicated communicated that I would have people from the two sides, kind of the polar opposite, speak to me. And there would be those of the people who had either left the church or they were not Mormon, and they would say to me, aren't you glad that you're finally free, that you don't have to be involved in Mormonism again? And are you going to now. And almost like they were giving me a sermon, kind of like, I want you now to walk away from Mormonism, you know, see it as an addiction and not have anything more to do with that.

Margaret Toscano [00:32:22] You can just walk away. You don't have to be, they kicked you out. You don't have to do anything more with that. You're free now, you know, you don't have to wear garments and all of that, and you're free and all of that. And then you had the sort of. My friends that were still in the church, including my family, who would say, we're going to pray for you. We'll put your name on the temple prayer roll. If you just humble yourself, you can come back. And so you have these two sides that both were pulling me. And yet my question was, what do I want?

Margaret Toscano [00:32:56] And I have to say that I had many years where I struggled with, yes, there's a way in which that I'm glad that I do feel a freedom that I'm not bound in the same way that I was in the past.

Margaret Toscano [00:33:14] And yet the bonds of love create connections and obligations and the bonds of belief and the bonds of practice and the bonds of all these other things are very real. And so I went through this long struggle of how am I still Mormon and how can I express my Mormonism?

Margaret Toscano [00:33:35] And, you know, there were times where I just simply wanted to walk away from the Mormon thing, never talk about it again, never think about it again. But over the years, I began to realize that it was such a part of me that I could not walk away from it and that I wanted some way in which I could express it.

Margaret Toscano [00:33:59] Part of this for me was also why I had been excommunicated in the first place, which was that I had written about women's place in the church and had argued that women have placed priesthood and should be allowed to express it and use it, and that the church would never be whole, could never really achieve its mission unless women, the role of women, was elevated and women were allowed to express their spirituality on every level of the church. And I began to feel that that call that I had felt to be a voice and to work for Mormon women, that I still felt that call, and that wherever I could express that I was hoping that I could.

Margaret Toscano [00:34:48] And that for me has been a very important thing, the ability to once again connect with Mormon women and to know that I could still have a role in that. Now I'm just going to say one more thing, and then I'll let us go on to something else.

Inclusiveness, Shared Values, and Mormon Identity

Margaret Toscano [00:35:04] I love what you talked about, Carolyn, with inclusiveness. And I thought that what you said fits so well with what Anne talked about, the shared values that we all have. And if you look at those, they all have to do with being inclusive and diverse and supportive and creating a space for people to express their spirituality as Mormons. But I think it's really interesting, and here again, I think we have a paradox that's very important, that identity is actually, you create identity by distinguishing between the I and the you.

Margaret Toscano [00:35:49] I am what I am because I am not you. And so I see this as a paradox that on the one hand, we want to be inclusive and not set up these judgments and these barriers. And yet, if we're going to have an identity, there's a way in which identity of itself sets up some kind of a distinction. And so to me, I see this as this wonderful paradox that we have to keep working at. How can we be individuals and be different and celebrate that difference at the same time that we have this inclusion?

Margaret Toscano [00:36:28] How I was talking to somebody during the break. How can we still celebrate various things in Mormon theology and Mormon ideas and Mormon beliefs at the same time that we're not dogmatic? How do we negotiate that space so that, I mean, if we're going to say that what unites us, I mean, we can just be Unitarians, right? And be inclusive and diverse and supportive and all of these things.

Margaret Toscano [00:36:57] And I love the Unitarians, but that's not Mormon. Right? We're Mormons. We want to have a Mormon identity. There is an us. But we don't want it to be this exclusive us, them, that creates this hierarchy or hostility or enmity. And how do we do that? How can we talk about ideas of Mormon theology or other things, or Christianity, Mormon Christianity, and yet be an inclusive, open group? And I think that that's our challenge. But I want to tell you how excited I am to be part of you. I have struggled a lot with my own Mormon identity. I've had a lot of pain. I felt a lot of betrayal.

Margaret Toscano [00:37:40] And yet I see us at this point where there are, as John said, there are a lot of us out there that want to be Mormon but don't want to be in this kind of narrow space where we have to be, we have to identify in one way only. And I can't tell you how pleased I am to be with you here today. Thank you so much for including me as part of this group.

Guest 2 [00:38:16] I have to say I feel very humbled and kind of overwhelmed to be part of this panel because I am so young in this. Well, in general, but in this process as well. As Katrina said, we have only been aware of the bloggernackle for less than a year. It seems it's shameful, but I just would write word documents to myself like 50 pages long about how I had one on scholarly reflections, I had one on Book of Mormon problems, I had one. I just talked to myself and does

Guest 6 [00:39:00] your dissertation advisor know you're doing this?

Guest 2 [00:39:04] Right? Bart Ehrman and I actually have had some very interesting discussions on faith which during, during the break, maybe we can discuss. So I'm really young in this process and I remember ironically now thinking several years ago, thinking and we discussed, Katrina and I discussed. I'm like, I'm kind of good at thinking about this Mormon theology stuff. It's really too bad there's nowhere to talk about it.

Guest 2 [00:39:32] Little did I know that right on the other side of the wireless connection was this whole community. So as Katrina said, we found Mormon stories and I found a home. I love our relationship because she, Katrina does not really need this part of me.

Guest 2 [00:39:57] She puts up with it. But I have felt such a sense of belonging and that I have been able to serve by being my true self, where I am able to do that nowhere else. And many of you have probably heard the Mormon Matters podcast that Dan, Joanna, I and Blair did about identity in Mormonism.

Guest 2 [00:40:26] And I've been thinking about this a lot. I was invited to contribute to Faith Promoting Rumor and I feel like I'm kind of against the grain over there because all I want to do is speak about identity, you know, identity and nuancing and where we fit in. So I've been thinking about these issues for several years and I frankly, again, paradox. There's so many paradoxes.

Guest 2 [00:40:58] If it is done wrong, it cannot be done. We cannot have this open inclusive engagement. I've been thinking about this idea of star crossed believers, like star crossed lovers, where no matter how much you love each other, you just cannot get through through to each other.

Guest 2 [00:41:18] And a lot of us have experiences like that with those we love. It was a very moving experience for me when my mother read my piece the Blessings of an Unknown God about agnosticism. And I self identify as an agnostic theist, a hopeful agnostic theist Mormon.

Guest 2 [00:41:41] And we talked about the labels and qualifiers. But this is an important, important part of myself. And yet what's interesting, when I had my podcast on the New Testament and then my own journey, it's interesting that a lot of people who had left the church, said, you don't have integrity.

Guest 2 [00:42:00] How can you stay in the church? How can you be honest and remain in the church? So I think what this wrestle of identity is one thing that I say. I had a really nice light bulb moment when I was commenting on the Mormon Matters podcast where someone said to me, I finally get it. I finally understand what you mean when you say our way or your way is not better than the literalist firm believer. It's just different.

Guest 2 [00:42:35] And I don't think it's difficult to understand, but I sincerely feel this. I value the straightforward kind of faith that powers so many millions of good loving Mormons and religious people overall. We don't need to have a complicated view of history in order to be loving. We have that. I feel that the solutions, yes, becoming disaffected and complicated makes you, you less of a jerk. But so does reading the New Testament, you know, so does taking seriously the principles of the gospel that are already there.

Guest 2 [00:43:17] And so one thing that I've been thinking about writing is this piece called Neither Shaken nor Moved, where I am in a place, and I feel like a lot of our place, where nothing could shock us anymore. You know, bring it on. You know, bring on the complicated history and philosophy and theology and we can handle it because our foundations have already been broken.

Guest 2 [00:43:43] You know, it's like, so I'm in the church, I have a temple recommend. And it's a very interesting experience getting my temple recommend. And so it was a couple months ago, and my bishop, I go in with bishop, really cool guy, and he had me speak to the youth about Greek translation in the New Testament, things like that. So I knew he was cool. And so I ask him, I say, do you want the footnote version or the non footnote version? And his brow furrows a bit and he's like, we can be honest and talk about everything.

Guest 2 [00:44:19] So I tell him that I don't really have a testimony of the atonement of Christ, that I love it. I love the idea. I try to repent, I try to live well. I try to live in a way that if Jesus really is our Savior, he would be pleased. And meanwhile, my bishop is looking at me, you know, the crease in his brow. And that was all good. And I try to explain philosophically, a little bit agnosticism to him, and he's not quite there with me. And so he said, he said, I think you're okay. I think you're just honest. He signed my temple recommend.

Guest 2 [00:45:01] And my favorite part was he Said, but if. But if you ever get to a stage. I wish I remembered his exact words. I don't. He's like, if ever you wake up and suddenly you don't believe in thus and such, talk to a priesthood leader.

Guest 2 [00:45:16] And through my head, I didn't say this. I'm like, and what? It's like I'm gonna read the Book of Mormon three times fast, and suddenly it's all gonna go away. And then I was planning on speaking to my stake presidency member and being really simple, you know, like, yes, no, thank you.

Guest 2 [00:45:39] But they came over to our house before a world conference, and being a PhD student in religion, it, you know, people know that there's something going on. So this great council stake president, he says, how's your faith? And I have to admit, I'm proud of this answer. I said, it has been stripped down to its bedrock elements and rebuilt. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that sounds good.

Guest 2 [00:46:09] And so little did he know where I placed the foundationals of Mormon thought on where that bedrock really is. But I believe in spirituality. I really do. That is what I have the most testimony of. I believe in religion as a symbolic system with an unknown referent.

Guest 2 [00:46:36] So that means even though I don't know, I take seriously the fact that we cannot have any knowledge beyond our own perceptions. And my uncle and others will disagree with me, but that. That I actually bore my testimony from the pulpit on this.

Guest 2 [00:46:52] And it went over really well. I said that when we say, I know, we are speaking of the sacred realm of. Of personal experience. And in that personal realm, no one can contradict us. This is something that we know and that is its own reality.

Guest 2 [00:47:07] But I didn't say this part in my testimony. We cannot project that personal reality onto an external system of truth. And so this is why we're wonderful, loving postmodernists, that all of our truth is valid. And what I want to say is I honestly do not think that the straightforward believer, and I'm trying very hard to stay with neutral terms because I do not devalue the literal, firm, unquestioning belief. It has vulnerabilities. It's spelled Google.

Guest 2 [00:47:50] But if you can be a firm believer and still love, which a lot managed to do, and if you can also manage to avoid the Internet, you're fine. So what I'm saying is that the, you know, of course we find a way to do it.

Guest 2 [00:48:14] People find a way to keep their faith. But I sometimes I talked with Richard Bushman about this. I honestly think that you cannot Take history and philosophy seriously without deconstructing the whole jobby, it all falls apart. I try to explain this to some of my friends who are evangelical Christians, and they're like, yes, I'm so grateful that I found the New Testament now that I left behind that messy, messy Book of Mormon, Mormonism worldview that falls to pieces. And, oh, I love my Bible. And I say, you know, the rabbit hole goes all the way down. You know, it falls apart there too. And as soon as you're.

Guest 2 [00:48:59] As soon as Christianity dumps you too. And some very respected friends sometimes have lovingly accused me of pushing agnosticism. And that's not the case. It's just. I try to make the point, yes, you can have faith if you have this personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I respect that and I'm so grateful for that. But do not go to history, do not go to philosophy to hold you up. Because the problem with that is once you're a hap, you know, the apologists.

Guest 2 [00:49:40] I personally think that academics. And this happened to me in grad school. When I was going into grad school, I had a word document where I was gonna. Gosh darn it, I was gonna harmonize the pearl of great price Mormon view of scripture, starting with Moses six, six. You know, Adam had a pure and perfect language and he started the Bible.

Guest 2 [00:50:01] And I was gonna take the Mormon narrative of scripture and the academic narrative of scripture and I was going to harmonize them. And then it took me about a semester to realize it didn't work like that, that the academic explanation of religion made a lot of sense and it explained the church approach to academia much better than the church sees evil. Scholars don't learn that stuff. Then that model works.

Guest 2 [00:50:33] And so I think that apologists. So scholars say, here's the best picture of Jesus, here's the best picture of Joseph, here's what we can understand. And yes, it's not certain, but you can just cuddle up with that lack of certainty and say, oh, I can believe everything that I've ever learned in Sunday school. So I think that academia, as best they can, says, here is square A, B, C, D.

Guest 2 [00:50:57] This is the story of Christianity. This is the story of Joseph Smith, this is the story of the Book of Mormon. And apologists can say, well, dot A isn't quite as firm as they think, and DNA doesn't cause quite as much of a problem as people think, but they can't create another square A, B, C, D that is as persuasive as the academic model. But that does not change the fact that that spirituality is real, that religion has value.

Guest 2 [00:51:28] But what I would say is that we need to transcend the standard model of religion, and it can be done. But what I want to say before we move on to the question and answer part of the panel is I really do not believe that the straightforward believer and the questioner, deconstructed type person, I don't think they can ever communicate without being transformed and becoming different than they are.

Audience Q&A Begins: Why Stay in the Church?

Guest 2 [00:51:58] I taught in the Bible Belt, and so some of my students would say, I will get an A in this class, but I am ignoring everything we're learning. And I encouraged my students. I said, don't do that. You know, don't. There's also a pastor therapy group with Bart Ehrman's New Testament class.

Guest 2 [00:52:18] And I said, don't throw your faith out the window and don't ignore everything in class either, but make this an organic process where we become something else. But the major point that I want to make is we cannot force this journey on anyone.

Guest 2 [00:52:39] And so if so, what I do, I feel like similar to what Paul says, you know, when I'm with believers, I speak as a believer, and when I'm with doubters, I speak as a doubter. And I wrote a paper for a Bush seminar that Bushman put on called On Love and Integrity, Identity and Interpretation in the Pluralistic Mormon Culture. And so what I would say is that even though we want to be inclusive, even though we want to say there's no us, there's no them, we still need to be very, very tactful and very careful and very loving about how we blend our identities and how we engage with each other's identities, because either we will abrasively hurt each other, or we will have to have a ceasefire agreement where we just don't talk about these things, or we will need to be ready to be transformed, and we can never force that process.

Guest 2 [00:53:36] And so I think it is a very complicated, personalized journey about how we become inclusive and how we communicate with those different and how we make the us larger to encompass it. Thanks.

Guest [00:53:57] All right, thank you, Margaret.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] And thank you, Jared. Is my microphone working? Is it. Can you guys hear me? It doesn't sound good. Okay, like, the battery's maybe dead on this. I'll talk loudly. So I want to get to questions. I'm going to ask those who ask questions. Please don't tell stories or share opinions for this part. That's what the test 20.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] So ask simple, short, direct questions. Try and direct them to Specific people, if you can, or just we'll try to moderate that. I'll ask maybe a question or two. One of the groups of people that I've interacted most with, I should be talking to microphone for the listeners.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] One of the groups of people that I interact most with are people who have left the church or are in some way disaffected. And there's a certain group of people that say, the last thing I want to do is be associated with the word Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] I want to run as far and as fast away from the word Mormon as I possibly can. Why would I ever want to go to a conference talking about Mormonism, speak about Mormonism, think about Mormonism again? Margaret, I'm going to ask my first question to you.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] You of all people would seem to be someone who might adopt a similar attitude. Yet you're here, and yet you've continued to make Mormonism a part of your life. I'm not, I want to say as a disclaimer, this conference is not about convincing people to stay in the LDS Church. It is not about that at all. I'm currently inactive from the LDS Church. I'm not proud to say that I'm not happy in that state. Perfectly.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] If I could find a way to reconcile and be able to feel like I could do it in happiness and with integrity, I would and still will. But I'm still in a journey. It's a process for me, too. So I guess what I'm saying is that we're not here to convince anyone to stay in the LDS Church. We validate all paths, including those who have left, who have resigned. We're not trying to nudge anyone in any direction.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] But I remember something said on a podcast with Dan where when you hate Mormonism, maybe one of the risks of hating the church and Mormonism is you hate a part of yourself. And I liked what Carolyn said about some of the psychologists early on who said, if you want to reach a state of peace, you need to make a peace with the faith of your childhood. And so, Margaret, I would love you to make a quick plea or a case or an explanation for why someone who might have every reason to run away from Mormonism has chosen to stick around in some way.

Margaret Toscano [00:57:15] I'll see if I can do it quickly. Like you. I mean, I have never felt like I either wanted to persuade somebody to stay in or persuade them to leave. Because for me, I believe very much in the personal choice of following where you feel your heart, your desire, the spirit, whatever is leading you on the Other hand.

Margaret Toscano [00:57:44] And I don't think I ever hated Mormonism, although maybe I did. I think, in fact, for me, part of my journey or my struggle has been, as I sort of hinted already, is to be able to tap into my anger and my hatred because there's kind of the more conscious part of me always wants to be loving and kind and understanding and kind of sympathetic with every position and, you know, not being all of that. And so for me, part of my journey was to be able to fully embrace my anger and the sense of betrayal and the sense that I had been really hurt and that what they had done to me was really bad.

Margaret Toscano [00:58:30] I had to do that. And so I think that that's very important. So maybe to now go to a short answer. Why would somebody not want to completely reject their Mormonism? I think you've already said part of it, John, which is that. And Carolyn, that if you've grown up in the church or if you were a convert, as my husband was, it's a part of your identity. And if you're going to be whole and healthy, you have to deal with that in a positive way. My other part, the other part of the answer would be, and maybe there are two parts to this, that in response to something you said, Jared, I agree with you that spirituality in and of itself is.

Margaret Toscano [00:59:13] Is a very important value. And that whether you're agnostic or atheist, to sense your own, that you are not simply molecules, but there's something in your identity that is deeper than that, is a very important part of psychological wholeness, too. That we have a need as human beings, even if we are molecules somehow, we still need meaning. We need. The interior is a very important part. Part of this.

Margaret Toscano [00:59:43] But I think that not only do we need spirituality, but that spirituality needs specific stories and symbols. That it cannot be this amorphous thing that has nothing to cling onto it. That symbols and stories and images are very powerful and that spirituality is connected to specifics.

Margaret Toscano [01:00:13] And that wherever you are, whether you're in Mormonism or you're a Buddhist who lives in another country, the specifics of the material world we perceive the spiritual through objects, through rituals, through myths, through things. And that we all.

Margaret Toscano [01:00:40] It's why your stories that you give, John, are so powerful. You just say we should all be nice, we should all be inclusive. We should all be this, we should all be that. It's pablum. It doesn't speak to us. We need the specifics.

Margaret Toscano [01:00:56] And I think that one of the reasons that a lot of us want to still be Mormon is that that there are specifics about the theology, about the people, about the history that are powerful. And I would hate, you know, I'm not one that wants to lose any language that has been spoken among humans. I want to keep all languages because every language. As somebody who has studied a lot of languages, you can say things in Greek that you can't say in English. And I love the nuances of. Of the language. And if we lose a part of human experience, human language, we're losing the richness, the diversity of our experiences.

Margaret Toscano [01:01:41] And I would hate to see that happen. There's so much. There's so many wonderful things in Mormonism. There's a lot I hate, I admit, but there's so much good that it would be just a shame to lose that. And I don't want to lose that part of myself.

Margaret Toscano [01:01:57] I have no desire to be part of the LDS Church right now at all. I don't want to go back, but I want to keep my Mormonism because that there's something material, something gritty. I mean, I'm trying to think of a way of saying this, that if we lost it, it would be like an extinct language, which would be so, to me, so sad that we had lost it.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Any other. Any other quick responses that wasn't quick.

Margaret Toscano [01:02:27] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] That was awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Margaret. Carolyn, I want to ask you the next question, please. For those. For those who are struggling to find a way to stay, or for those who have left. I don't think that. I don't think that any of us could claim that your life has been a cakewalk as it relates to the

Guest 2 [01:02:53] church,

John Dehlin [01:02:56] maybe, and you have decided to maintain your membership and to engage. And I think there's a lot of people here who would want to know how. Kind of, what are your top bullet items for surviving active LDS Church membership?

Guest 5 [01:03:20] Okay. Now that this would be more how I managed to stay rather than why I want to stay.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] That's right. Tips for how to make it work if you want to, from your experience.

Guest 5 [01:03:33] Wow. Well, I got lucky in. In a lot of ways. And when you said maybe I had. When I was out there doing Mother of the Morning and Margaret and the others were here being excommunicated, I. Geography played a part in that.

Guest 5 [01:04:01] Well, here are some of the things that have been on my side. I developed my own Persona pretty early on as a very safe little poetess that was quoted in General Conference. And that was a good first building block of people who came to know me that way.

Guest 5 [01:04:22] And then when I did sort of step out in a big way of publishing, goodbye, I love you. There were some people who thought that was pretty harsh to a bad thing to have this compassionate view of homosexuality. But most Mormon people thought, I like that. I like what she did. And that gave me another bit of plus for giving me some credibility and also for allowing me to believe that I could have a place in the church. As I said on the huge podcast that you. That I was terrified when I knew that Deseret book had ordered a preview. And then when they decided I learned they had ordered a thousand copies, I thought, my gosh, this is going to be okay.

Guest 5 [01:05:13] And the huge amount of positive response that I got to that was another good link between Mormonism and me and the fact that during the time that Margaret and others were talking about the divine feminine and I was out there doing Mother Wilbur the morning, my own stake president at that time came to see the play about five times when I was playing in San Francisco, bringing high powered guests there because he wanted to show me off, to say, we can do this in our church.

Guest 5 [01:05:46] And at that particular time, and because this is not my current stake president, I will say that the stake president I had at that time, which. Whose name I don't need to mention, I was always in good contact with him about what I was doing. And he said, yes, Carolyn, the Brethren call me about you from time to time and say, should we be doing anything about Sister Pearson?

Guest 5 [01:06:09] And I say to them, leave her alone. She does better PR for this church than you could ever buy. Leave her alone. So I have had that kind of unusual support from the people who have been in ecclesiastical authority over me. So that combined with good luck, plus with the fact that I have been both honest and pushing the envelope as far as I wanted to, and I have not done any personal attacks against the church, against any of the Brethren.

Guest 5 [01:06:46] So I feel that, I mean, we all have a calling. And I think that I have had a calling, that I have been protected in some ways. Mormon feminists don't kill themselves. Mormon gay people, the men especially, hundreds.

Guest 5 [01:07:06] And I think that I have been protected because I have a calling to do something significant about that. So that's really all I can say at the moment.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] Thank you. Thank you. Is this microphone working?

Guest 2 [01:07:20] Could I say something really quick?

John Dehlin [01:07:21] Yes, please.

Guest 2 [01:07:23] As someone who's not a famous poetess. So first, I think there's a term that I like called enlightened self centeredness, where we need to make our own Peace with if we want to make being in the church work and it hurts.

Guest 2 [01:07:45] My lovely wife organized a feminist book group. We read Sue Monk Kids Dance of the Descendant Daughter. And I was in tears after because of the stories that were shared and homosexuality issues. I break down, I break down in tears because the church is so, so harmful. And I think that we need to give full weight to both the good and the harm that the church does and then make our choice about what we want to do about it. So feminist homosexuality issues. But I think I know why I want to be part of the church, part of the community. I live Mormonism the way that I want to live it.

Guest 2 [01:08:33] You know, we pray to Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father. There's. So spirituality is good. And I think in its ideal form, Mormonism does religion as well as many other systems. And it's a beautiful thing. And then I prefer to stay. And I make no pretensions as to whether I will be able to do this long term. I want to, but I focus on what's real to me, the real value that it has in people, in people's lives. And then I am very, very careful about how I share what I feel. I said in priesthood that prophet was a mistake, but I knew that I could do it in that.

Guest 2 [01:09:10] And if I were in a ward where I could say nothing, I would try to say as much as I could. I would wait. I try to be governed by love, but I have this sense of self. I'm self centered enough that I am nourished and I have my own spiritual relationship and I choose to stay so I can be the voice. And okay, I do not think it works to just white knuckle in the church and say, if only I can stay active and keep a temple recommended and maybe in 40 years it'll be better. That's not a way to live. I don't think that's helpful.

Guest 2 [01:09:46] But if we can find the meaning, we can connect with others and we can be happy even in a flawed system. I'm not running and leaving America even though there are many problems with the country. So embrace the good and the bad and be a voice for the good.

Wanting to Be Useful Within the Tradition

Guest 6 [01:10:07] I just want to pull out a little common thread I'm hearing is that I think a lot of us just really want to be useful. You know, I mean, we received such good training. We really did. And it, you know, it takes a while, especially if you're sort of, you know, different, to find a way to be useful.

Guest 6 [01:10:29] And I think one of the things that I Find most. And I think we're better at feeling like we belong when we find a way to be useful to the tradition. And that may or may not, and everyone finds a different path. And I think one of the things I find most promising about this sort of moment is this idea that, especially with the web, there is a de facto decorrelation of Mormon discourse.

Guest 6 [01:10:52] There really is. There is a lot of space in this world, and there is a lot of space to do good as Mormons. And, you know, maybe at some seasons in my life, I really, you know, I mean, maybe some seasons in my life are gonna coincide with opportunities to serve within the institutional church. And I do. I have a calling, but in other ways, I serve the tradition. I think about the Rabbis back in 1885 who said, One of the ways we're going to express what it means to be Jews in the modern world is through tikkun olam, which means literally healing a broken world, acts of reparation.

Guest 6 [01:11:27] And so I wonder if it's just not up to us to find ways to explain, express our Mormonism and be useful. You know, whether or not that coincides with seasons of perfect activity or maps directly onto the needs of the institutional church. The institutional church has so much it needs to accomplish, and maybe our needs don't map perfectly onto those needs, but I think we're all united by a desire to be useful to the tradition. And I love what Carolyn said about, you know, she has three assigned and four other visiting teaching people. I mean, you know, so I think that's helped me stay connected or get reconnected, is finding a sense in which I felt I could be useful.

Mormonism Compared to Other Modernizing Faiths

John Dehlin [01:12:04] Thank you. I'm going to ask one more question before I let the audience. We're going to have you come up to the microphone for your questions. Joanna, you just spoke, but this last question that I'm going to offer is directed to you.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] I started reading Kaim Potok books a few years ago. Kaim Potok is a Jewish authority who wrote the Chosen, the Promise, David's Harp. My name is Asher Lev. All these books and many others. All these books explore the clash between Judaism and modernity, Judaism and science, Judaism and secularism, Judaism and biblical criticism, higher criticism. And it's all about that shady middle ground that Holly sang about because there really are no blacks and whites. And it's all about this middle ground of can we bridge the divide between faith and modernity?

John Dehlin [01:13:04] And when journalists write about John Huntsman and Joanna and Dan, you guys helped me think about this when Journalists write about John Huntsman. They don't know what to call him. In fact, he doesn't even know what to call himself.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] So there's no name for us. And so we can look at Judaism. Who's got Hasidic, Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist. You can pick your flavor of Judaism. You can be a rabbi in certain forms of Judaism and not even believe that Moses existed.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] You can believe that the Bible is fiction and be a rabbi and marry people and perform the most holy rituals of Judaism. Now, I'm not. I'm not a scholar, so when I talk about comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism, I get eviscerated by people who are more thoughtful about this kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] So I bring my smart friends to talk about it for me. So, Joanna, have you thought at all about how this can unfold? How do we get to a place where there is an identity? I'm not saying let's create new churches. I'm actually explicitly not saying that.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] I'm not saying anything other than asking the question, how do we get what the Jews have so that those who want to maintain their connection, give it

Guest 6 [01:14:39] a few thousand years? And, you know, I'm not Jewish. I just married a nice Jewish boy. So let's, you know. But I have learned a lot. And Judaism was a refuge, you know, has been a spiritual refuge to me. And it seems it's so important not to, as I said during my talk, not draw facile comparisons. There are some significant differences, and there are places that. In which I would not trade.

Guest 6 [01:15:02] There are ways in which I find Judaism limiting. Everyone should know that. There are ways in which I find Judaism limiting that impact my spiritual life directly as well, and my children. So, you know, to be continued. But, you know, something that I noticed right away with the way my husband and his family conducted themselves in relationship to this religious tradition was that they never sensed that their identity was imperiled. I mean, there's a sense of danger a lot of us get right, and I'm interested that we're talking about that. September 1993 has come up a lot for all of us. And in part, I see kind of this moment as a moment that's kind of seeking to exhale and see what's next.

Guest 6 [01:15:51] I can't tell you how many young Mormon feminists I talked to who are in their 20s, who were babies in 93, who still assume that for something fairly innocuous, they say they're going to get called into a court. I mean, that's been absorbed, that fear, that fear has really been absorbed. And I noticed how unafraid my husband was, and it was a revelation to me. I mean, and part of that, again, is through the very distinct historical processes that have formed Judaism. You know, I mean, Jews died for being Jews by comparison. Very few Mormons have died for being Mormons. Maybe Mormons have died for being Mormons.

Guest 6 [01:16:25] But, you know, so that sense that this is something you carry inside you, that history has tried to take away from you, but it's not going to. You helped shape the history of the people. And, you know, I'll close out because I could tell many funny stories about this, but, you know, Jews fire their rabbis all the time, right? And my husband's parents helped start a Reconstructionist temple, which is a branch that's in some ways more conservative than Reform, which is the one you're probably most familiar with.

Guest 6 [01:16:57] More conservative, but also more progressive, very LGBT welcoming, but also more intellectually curious. And, you know, they fire rabbis. They hire and fire their rabbis. And we have a very different relationship to authority in our tradition. And I wonder, and I don't say that with judgment, it's just very different, right? And I wonder if there's not some way for. For us in this period of, I hope, healing, right, in this period in which we might begin to shed ourself of fear that is so inhibiting to usefulness if we can exhale and not think about firing anyone, any rabbis or anyone else that might, you know, be an authority, but think about ways to feel the strength of the tradition we carry inside of ourselves and exhale a little bit and just dig in and find somewhere to be useful and don't worry so much about it.

Guest 6 [01:17:45] And I think one of the reasons we're labeling ourselves in this moment unorthodox, because we feel we need a label to make sure we're safe before we can go on. But I think there are many reasons to be hopeful and to begin to feel safe again in Mormonism. And they're there if we claim them, if we act with the kind of assurance and positivity that says, I will not apologize. I will not apologize for being Mormon, and I will not allow anyone to diss my tradition. I will not allow you to make fun of my relative, his magic underwear. I will not forget it. No way.

Guest 6 [01:18:13] I'm not ashamed. But at the same time, I'm going to live the life I feel called to live, and I'm going to enlarge the spaces where I can. I'm going to try and be useful, and nothing can take this away from me. I'm not afraid. So that's one way, in a non reductive way that plus a thousand years.

John Dehlin [01:18:35] We just went from 2,000 to 1,000.

Wade Walker [01:18:36] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] Did you start with the question? That was a lot of progress. Thank you. Okay, time for your questions. Please make them very brief and if you can direct them to who you want to start with. The answer.

Academic Study and the Rabbit Hole of Mormon History

Guest 3 [01:18:48] I'm interested in talking to Jared and Margaret especially. You talked about going down the rabbit hole. Once you leave Mormonism, the rabbit hole continues going.

Wade Walker [01:18:57] I'm wondering though, if you think that

Guest 3 [01:18:58] there's qualitative differences between the history and the mythology of Christianity and Judaism, for example, versus a history and mythology of Mormonism where it seems Mormonism's mythology is a lot more malleable right now. And particularly comment on the trajectory of Mormon studies because it seems like right now it's mostly Mormons trying to reconcile something about themselves versus non Mormons digging into what actually happened with the foundations of Mormonism.

Margaret Toscano [01:19:25] Well, Mormonism has the disadvantage of being more recent and therefore you can prove or disprove the history easier. As soon as it's 2000 years old, it's harder to separate the myth and the history. Right. So I mean, that's kind of both the joy and the curse of Mormonism is that it is so recent and there's so much that's there.

Margaret Toscano [01:19:47] But I think that we have to. From my perspective, one of the most productive things that we can do is stop thinking in terms of sort of the simplistic either ors, and to get rid of the notion that you're either this literalist or you're just simply, you're kicking out all of the literal and the factual and everything that again, those black and whites and those either ors to me are very destructive. That if we're going to have productive discussions about either Mormon history or Mormon theology or Mormon identity, I think we have to have a new vocabulary and a new way of talking that is not reductionist, that really deals with the complexity about how history works and about how myth works and how those things, they always interplay.

Margaret Toscano [01:20:42] There's never a way in which you can get down to the facts without dealing with interpretation. And for me, the hopeful thing about Mormon studies is that I think we're beginning to have more people. I mean, I see this with you, Jared, that more people that can talk in a complex way so that we're not just kind of fighting about, you know, we're not having this sort of naive discussion about what happened. But we understand the complexity about how we create history and how we create theology and so forth. And so that's my hope. I think that there's a lot of hope in that area that people are getting more sophisticated tools to talk about it rather than this kind of really simplistic black and white. I think that's what we need to do.

Guest 2 [01:21:37] Okay, so two commonalities or a commonality with Christianity and Mormonism is we both have historical investments. If certain things are never happened, there are serious consequences to our faith. It's very difficult to say, well, if Jesus never was resurrected, I can still believe all I want. You know, him being, him being the Savior. And so if there were no, no gold plates, I can still be, still be a good Mormon. So there's similar historical investments and we need this to be historical, some would say to believe as we, to move forward in our faith. I think that priesthood is a very sticky issue here with the LDS narrative.

Guest 2 [01:22:23] There needs to be that restoration of priesthood, which very frankly, I don't think it doesn't go off very well on the biblical side because I don't think priests Peter, James and John and had the authority that Mormons imagine they did. And I don't. And then there are problems on the Mormon historian side. I do think that with the Internet, I was very impressed. Someone in one of the groups I'm in pointed out that on LDS.org there's a section on the Mountain Meadows Massacre on the multiple forms of the first vision. So I think the church is because becoming aware that we cannot hide from these issues anymore.

Guest 2 [01:23:03] So the hope I have, I know a lot of people in my education, age bracket and we're still hiding a little bit because we know we need to tread very carefully in order to maintain legitimacy in our institution. But I have a lot of hope that with the Internet and with the openness that the church will be able to make much better use of its specialists than we have before. So instead of disciplining specialists, we say, oh, okay, you interpret in some very interesting ways and you may not believe exactly the way we do, but you are still the safe, faithful person that we can claim as our own or that some members of our community can claim as our own. So I hope that in part answered your question.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] Thank you.

Guest 3 [01:23:53] My question is for you, Carolyn Pearson. I'm kind of curious about your opinions and whatnot on the future of the world due to like global warming and environmental stuff, because the church believes that, oh, the resources are here for us and yada, yada, yada, but we're also supposed to respect the world and whatnot. So I've been able to justify being gay, but I haven't really been able to justify being an extreme environmentalist. So.

Guest 5 [01:24:23] And you would think that I would have a good answer because.

Guest 3 [01:24:26] No, I've just never heard anything about that. I've read a lot of stuff from you and I'm curious.

Guest 5 [01:24:34] Well, no, I really haven't addressed that yet. Darn it.

Guest 6 [01:24:38] You know, Canyon. Oh, sorry.

Guest 5 [01:24:42] Would just say that. Why would we think that if our church doesn't at this moment clearly have all the answers about homosexuality, why would we look to this church for ultimate answers about global warming or look anywhere else? I mean, actually Mormonism is more on board with global warming than a lot of other places. But just for, for my vision of the fate of the world in general, I mean, could we make it that simple or large?

Guest 5 [01:25:19] I have a lot of confidence in the human family and I believe that probably we are going to survive as a species. But believing, hopefully, I'm a hopeful believer that we are all eternal beings and that one way or another, our journey in the. This physicality will prove to be really useful and positive and take us where we're supposed to be going. And in the meantime, I do my little part of it and you do your part of it. And if there is, which I hope and believe, something that is larger than us, including all of us, that we're moving toward higher and higher joy and better vibration of understanding and relationship. So that's a very strange answer to a very strange question.

Guest 2 [01:26:11] One potential problem is the Latter Day Saints, our belief in the Second Coming. I think that we need that. It would be nice to temper a little bit this imminent belief in the Second Coming. How to do that? Not enough time.

John Dehlin [01:26:24] It's in the name, isn't it, to

Guest 2 [01:26:25] talk about it, but the fact that we're like, we don't need to take care of the world. It's going to end in the 30 years. So we only need 30 years of oil. Right. So I mean, it would be nice if we could emphasize the stewardship because Moses, where the earth cries out, we have the beautiful theology about stewardship, about taking care of the earth, about the earth having a soul. And it'd be nice to focus on that. So Mormonism has the answers. I just wish we could mix up the ingredients differently than the institutional churches.

Guest 5 [01:26:58] Yeah. And I think Mormons don't disavow our need to be good stewards over the earth like Certain extreme evangelicals really, truly do say, you know, well, never mind about the trees. You know, we're only going to last for a short period of time anyway. I think Mormons don't do that. So I think we're in much better light on that particular thing.

Guest 6 [01:27:21] There's a Mormon Matters podcast Dan did on environmentalism. You know it. Okay, good. George Handley, you know him. Okay, good.

Guest 3 [01:27:32] My name is Brad Carmack. I had a question for Joanna, if you wouldn't mind. It's a governance question. There's a number of predictable shortcomings that come from a very rigidly authoritarian sort of governance structure. One where power's very concentrated in the hands of about 15. They're all English speaking, all white, all very old. They're selected for conformity and for seniority. One of those shortcomings is a slow pace of change. So I was wondering if you could speak to a feasible next step for improving governance.

Governance, Change, and the Future of the Church

John Dehlin [01:28:04] Of what?

Guest 3 [01:28:06] Of the institutional LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] How to improve the governance of the LDS Church. That's it.

Guest 4 [01:28:17] I'm going to put on my I'm

Guest 6 [01:28:18] married to a Jewish guy hat and say in Jewish tradition, there's a wonderful teaching rhetoric that they teach us to use when our children ask us questions, and you're not my child. But when someone asks us a question, we say, what do you think the answer is? I don't know. I don't feel. I mean, I don't feel in a position to instruct the church and how it's governed. You know, I did note there's been changes in the last year, year and a half, with women in priesthood executive councils. We've seen some open role modeling of more egalitarian interactions between male and female leaders done in leadership training sessions, as I understand. I didn't attend, so it's all hearsay. But, you know, I. I don't. I don't fall, you know, I don't feel in a position to correct the church.

Guest 3 [01:29:06] How do you democratize, for instance, to a greater extent than the current.

Guest 6 [01:29:09] You know, I think that, you know, gender is an obvious. Anyone who wants to think caringly as stewards of a Mormon tradition. It sounds like that's where you're coming from, about next steps, feasible next steps, which I think is a really lovely way of putting it. You know, there's two big axes here, and one is north, south, you know, basically the fact that the global growth of the church, I mean, you know, as multi generational, mostly ethnic Mormons, basically, in this room, we are going to be. We're minority and we'll continue to be the minority. So it's interesting to think about how the faces we see in institutional church leadership do and don't reflect our global majority and how that works.

Guest 6 [01:29:46] I'm even acutely aware, as a Mormon feminist of how difficult it is to reach out to third world women right here in the US who share my faith, who are employed as housekeepers in the places I sleep overnight when I come to Salt Lake City. You know what I mean? I'm in poverty wages. That dialogue is difficult enough for me as a simple Mormon feminist to do so. I can only imagine the burden the church is facing. And then the gender axis is another one. And I really enjoyed a podcast Dan did a few weeks ago where I got to be on with Jana Reese and Christine Haglin.

Guest 6 [01:30:13] And, you know, we talked very openly about, you know, what would happen if every role that wasn't in the priesthood chain of command was desegregated by gender. Wouldn't that be interesting? You know, I mean, what if, you know, what if, what if ward clerks, you know, like, there's a lot of women who keep the checkbook at home, right?

Guest 6 [01:30:35] I don't know. Is that a priesthood thing? I'm not clear on that. You know, so. But that was the thing that came during the course of the podcast. I really enjoyed that avenue of just thinking about desegregation of things that aren't priesthood, clearly priesthood related. But I don't make those as suggestions. I'm just sharing with you conversations I've been a part of.

Guest 2 [01:30:51] Can I make a super quick comment? I'm optimistic about the rate of change. I'm very optimistic because information, it's speeding up so fast with the Internet, information, everything. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think our generation will finance the church as it is now. And I have a lot of confidence in the church to protect itself and to survive. And I think that because of our social awareness and other factors, that it will get the message a lot faster than it otherwise would, because it won't be feasible in a survival sense otherwise.

Margaret Toscano [01:31:24] And I want to add something quickly to that. I think that that's how change is going to happen, that outside forces that combined with inside forces are going to pragmatically demand a change. I mean, one of the things that we've seen is that I don't know what the statistics are actually are, but it has been quoted that you have 80% of single women between like 18 and 40 that are leaving the Church. If something like that keeps happening, the church has to eventually respond. And I think that those kind of pragmatic changes are going to force the structure to realign in some way. Thank God.

Temple Recommend Questions and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:32:07] Last question, Holly.

Guest 4 [01:32:11] I'm kind of still waiting for the lightning bolt on this one. So this is for Carolyn and Joanna and anybody else has an idea. As a feminist, how do you philosophically get to a place where you will consent to answer questions in a temple recommend interview situation? Do you internally grant them authority to question you or how do you frame that? And also, this is the second part of the question. Why? I mean, do you do it for them or because you love them and you want to kind of humor them, or is it because of the temple? Or that? And I'm asking it sincerely. I'm not trying to be facetious. Would you answer the temple recommend interview questions if they ask them to?

Guest 5 [01:32:58] Oh, if I was just having a good conversation with my stake president and he's said, let me ask you a few things. Oh, absolutely. Oh, totally. I believe that there's nothing that my stake president doesn't know about my belief system or my activity.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] Are you asking whether she would answer in the appropriate way or whether she would be candid about her feelings?

Guest 4 [01:33:19] I'm asking if you would answer as a buddy.

Guest 5 [01:33:23] As a what?

Guest 4 [01:33:23] As a buddy. Right. I mean, if my stake president says, hey, Holly, let's go out to lunch, I'd really like to ask you these questions. You know, just because we're buddies, I'd say, oh, okay, I can answer questions.

Guest 5 [01:33:32] You know, I don't know that it would make much difference to me. I wouldn't put a. I would not put a label on it like that. It would be as a friend and someone whom I respect and that I do acknowledge that there is a certain kind of relationship with that I have unusual respect for. I don't know how else to answer that.

Guest 4 [01:33:55] Okay.

Margaret Toscano [01:33:56] Are you asking, Holly, whether or not, as a feminist, you feel like you should give a male leader authority over you? Is that sort of the crux of your inquiry?

Guest 4 [01:34:06] I feel like if I were to go in for a temple recommend interview, I would have to grant him authority to ask me those questions in order to do that. And I'm thinking, well, how do I grant him that authority? Maybe I still have too much pride, but at the same time as if I don't. I just don't even acknowledge that authority anymore, I guess. And I can't really go back to that. I don't know how. I don't necessarily want to go back to that. I'm just thinking, how can I get to that point? Not like I even care right now, obviously, but I always. I want to know how other people would frame that if they did that.

Margaret Toscano [01:34:43] Yeah, I know as a feminist, I have the same problem, Holly. I mean, obviously I'm not in the position where I, you know, the situation arises. Right. But I think if I were in the church right now, it would be really hard for me to go in and be willing to say that I would just submit to anything that they ask me.

Margaret Toscano [01:35:04] I would have a hard time as a feminist doing that as well. I think the only context in which I could is if I felt there would be two contexts in which I could. Either that I felt like I trusted that leader because I knew him as you're talking about, Carolyn, or if I felt like that somehow it was important for me to have the recommend and therefore I could reveal enough of myself and still feel like I had integrity. Because for me, the sense of integrity is so fundamental for me to have. You know, my identity is so connected to me feeling that I am being true to what I feel inside, and I don't.

Margaret Toscano [01:35:49] So I think it's possible that a woman could feel that. That she can feel like that she's not giving up her own sense of authority or her own integrity and answer the questions in a certain way, depending on the circumstance. But I completely agree with you that I think it's a really problematic issue, but maybe not just for a feminist, but anybody, you know, who can be the judge of my spiritual life other than myself.

Margaret Toscano [01:36:19] And I think it's a fundamental problem in the Mormon Church talking about the whole structure. I feel like that we have to. I mean, in my ideal church, we would return to a notion of, you know, it would be more democratic, a parliament of profits where we all can speak in the name of God, where we are all our own judges of our. Of our spiritual life. But I think it's really hard,

Guest 2 [01:36:48] I think. And people. People do critique me on this. And it needs. It's that my. The spirituality that I have forged is as sacred as the way that my priesthood leaders interpret that authority. And so I have this idea of translation. And for some, this wouldn't work, and I understand that. But I feel like I can maintain integrity by this idea of translation where I know what the Stake president is thinking and where he's coming from, or I try to understand that he wants to know whether I am worthy to go to the temple. I feel I am worthy to go to the temple. I feel I am worthy to be part of this community.

Guest 2 [01:37:25] And so I'm open to critique on this, but I will translate myself in whatever way I need to to get across the deep message that I want to be part of this community. And I feel I'm worthy to go to the temple. And I don't think that his interpretation is any more valid than my interpretation. Some people would call that disingenuous. Some people would call that lying. Some people. But I think I am being true. We have constantly competing claims to integrity. We have competing truths to which we need to be truthful. And so I think by being true to the deeper of, like, I do love and respect this community.

Guest 2 [01:38:05] I do also love and respect my thing. And so one thing that my line for integrity is, I feel that my positions are defensible. Do you see what I mean? That I may not choose to get all out there sometimes. I do. I do as much as I can. But if the precious leader confronted me and said, you're lying about this, this, and this, I could say, say yes. And this is why, because it's a complicated issue. I don't want to spend more time.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] Thank you, Holly. It's time to wrap up. We've eaten into our break intentionally, which means that our break's going to be shortened because we need to start right at five because Pizza's coming at six and Bent Washburn is going to be performing seven. And we want to give you lots of time to talk. I'm going to just really end really quickly. I'm going to put everyone on the spot. I'm going to have each panelist, I'll talk slowly for one minute each to share their remnants of thoughts of feelings of love for Mormonism. What are the elements of Mormonism? And I'm speaking longer so that they can think about it for a second. What are the remnants of Mormonism that are pillars for you in the life that you're currently living? And I'm gonna start with Jared and we'll just move in that direction.

Guest 2 [01:39:29] This is my people. I love my people. This is my faith language. I love the good that Mormonism can do for people, and I love its potential to do good even more. And so I want to be a bridge as much as I can between the present good, which I cherish and love, and the even greater potential good that I see.

Guest 6 [01:39:58] Talk loud. A few weeks ago, I did an interview with an evangelical author of some significance named Warren Smith. And it was a fairly spirited exchange. And at one point he said, believing that I was going to take the tack that, oh, of course Mormons were just like you.

Guest 6 [01:40:17] He said, well, you know, if you do believe in the same Jesus, why don't you just come over and join the Baptist church? And I said, well, that's easy. I really love being Mormon. And I do. And this is my language. This is a language in which I've had some pretty incomparable experiences that have been the bedrock of my life. I've never stopped praying.

Guest 6 [01:40:37] Surrendering doctrinal specifics has not meant for me surrendering faith. It's a religion I'm willing to bet my life on every day. And I do. I live as a Mormon every day because I love it. I believe in the tradition, and you're my people.

Margaret Toscano [01:40:54] I love Mormonism because of the open theology. I have always loved this notion of eternal progression and this openness in theology and these possibilities and potentials. And I think Mormonism has an incredible wealth of images and ideas that enliven me, and I still connect with those. I also connect with the people.

Wade Walker [01:41:24] People.

Margaret Toscano [01:41:24] I think that there's something about the way Mormonism works, that it creates these incredible human beings who are seeking and who want to do good and who want to connect and who want to have community. I see it here. I feel so much love for the Mormon people and what they can do. And. And I have a lot of faith that. Not in the church institution, but I have a lot of faith in Mormon people because I think they are. There's something about the incredible makeup of what has made them who they are that gives them a special thing that they can contribute. And finally, I feel that fate and the divine have put me in this place and that I need to do good where I am putting.

Guest 5 [01:42:18] I love that, Margaret. We have all maybe sung the little song where love is there, God is also. And to me, that means wherever in any religion or in any circumstance where we see love operating, that means that God is there.

Guest 5 [01:42:37] And I have long ago given up the idea that God is only in Mormondom or that Salt Lake City is the center of the universe. But what I do know is that because I experience love to a very high degree within the Mormon community, I know automatically that that's where God is, along with so many other places.

Guest 5 [01:43:03] And we, all of us, I know, have this. This built in immediate, immediate way to know, is this love? Is this not love? We can argue about the versions of the first vision. We can argue about DNA. We can argue about anything, but nobody needs to argue. Because when I feel love coming at me, when I feel love going out of me, I know that it is just a fact of absolute knowledge. And because Mormondom for me is a place where there is a great deal of love that is given and received, I know that there's a great deal of God that is present.

John Dehlin [01:43:53] Let's take a moment to thank our panel.

Guest [01:44:11] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Wade Walker [01:44:26] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo Hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well.

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