Welcome and Introduction to the Conference

Guest [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

Guest 2 [00:00:04] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

Guest 3 [00:00:18] The 2011 Salt Lake City Mormon Stories Conference was brought to you by the Salt Lake City Mormon Stories Support Community, found on Facebook and also by the Open Stories foundation and by the generous support of you, our listeners. To join or start a Mormon Stories support community in your area, please go to MormonStories.org and click on the Support Communities tab to host a regional conference in your city like this one. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com for more information on how to host a conference. Finally, to keep this podcast and all of these communities and projects alive, please donate today@mormonstories.org oh, and please enjoy the conference.

Guest 4 [00:01:06] So I just want to take one quick second here and thank you all for coming. This has been a lot of work and we're really grateful to have so many people here to appreciate it and to share in this community. And I just have really felt a lot of love here today. We are going to start with a musical performance by Eric Kulik. He's going to be singing and performing a song called Bearing Witness, which I think is fitting at the beginning of our little testimony meeting here. And. Then I'm going to take the opportunity to say a couple things before I turn it over to you, but we'll go with Eric first. Go ahead.

Host [00:01:59] Maybe say a few words, I guess, in lieu of coming up later on. It's been an amazing experience. I've been so grateful for everything that John and everybody else has done has gone through. Everyone's wondering about where we're going, what's going on. I really think that this is a major watershed moment for us. This is like our first annual, hopefully. Daniel, I'd love to. I hope so. Good conference to really to speak to the voices of those who are, who are, you know, who've been trodden upon, who have been less than, you know, perfectly fitting the mold of the community that we've grown into, whether through birth or through conversion. I myself am a convert from Long Island, New York. I think I know probably just about every single person that lived in the county that was a member of my church out there. And it really coming to Utah was good and bad. My disaffection didn't really, my questioning didn't really start until coming here, I guess. I mean, I guess not to really rip on us as Mormons, I guess, is anytime you have a community that is so prevalently one faith, it's very easy just to kind of get into the dogmatic routine. But I feel like there's something that we're doing here that just is just. It's actually, I almost see it even beyond Mormon community. I see this man, David Bazan, who's my musical hero. I'm actually playing one of his songs today. I've seen him perform 15 times. I've hung out and talked to him 14 of those times. Really cool guy. He's from the evangelical community and it's happening everywhere. I think what's happening, it's a human experience. It's this experience of questioning and understanding and growing. And when you look at the Old Testament, you see they blamed God or credited God for all the crazy things that happen around them. I think it just. As human beings, we want to process where we are and who we are. And I think that we really are moving forward. And if there is ever going to be a Zion built, it's going to be through this love and community and questioning that we're able to go through right now. So I also, as far as temple recommend stuff, for me, I had an experience where luckily my bishop in the ward here has been really nice. But he kind of, even though I broke it all out for him and told him basically just about everything I felt in a nutshell, he came down, he's like, well, one question really would kind of determine whether I'll give you a recommend or not. And he asked if I. If I associated with or supported any groups that stood against the church. And that was the big question for him. And I told him, honestly, I have to say that I would support and stand with any group that needs the support and love of others. And if it means standing against an organization every single day, any single time, any place, I will always stand with that group. So without further ado, this is bearing witness.

Opening the Testimony Meeting

Guest 4 [00:07:44] Okay, so to start, we're going to welcome. You guys can come right up here to the lovely podium. It's pretty impressive to stand here, I gotta say. And we are really asking everyone to keep their remarks as brief as they can so that as most people as possible can take advantage of this time. And I don't want to have to give you the evil eye to tell you to wrap up, so please be brief. I just want to take the chance myself to say how grateful I am that I got to be a part of this and to feel such community with all of you and to feel sorry about that love. There's been a lot of love in this room today and I really am so appreciative of Carolyn and Margaret and Joanna, who took so much time to share their thoughts with us today, and for my wonderful husband, who I get to go on this journey with, and how thankful I am for that. So thank you for letting me be part of this. And I love being a Mormon. I love the church. It has its problems, but I'm thankful that I get to be a Mormon pioneer with each of you. So the podium is yours.

Guest 3 [00:09:31] Maybe I'll be an example of short.

Guest 5 [00:09:33] I have a testimony that.

Guest 3 [00:09:39] Spirituality works and that miracles happen and

Guest 6 [00:09:45] that the teachings of Jesus are a pretty good expression of what people for thousands of years have been trying to

Guest 7 [00:09:55] express of what they have experienced and seen and been amazed and enjoyed by.

Guest 8 [00:10:15] Well, this has been absolutely beautiful. And I loved being here. I've been very uplifted and enlightened being with all of you. I love Mormonism. I love being part of this community and being a Mormon. And I think we have such rich potential in our theology and kind of in the spirit of the idea of open Mormon, I think there's a lot there in our theology to make space for that as well. I joke with some of the guys in my ward that I ascribe to two of the seven deadly heresies, the first of those being evolution, But I just kind of think of that as a glorified version of family history. The second of those relates to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76. My wife and I took an institute class, and the issue came up between progression between kingdoms and. And it turns out that we're both universalists, very much so. And my wife put it great. She said, I just think of the celestial kingdom as a big party, and I want everyone to be there. And I think in our theology, in the Doctrine and Covenants, there's place for that. And I think that's the spirit of this conference as well, that Mormonism, the whole world, we all want to get to that big party together and don't leave anyone out.

Guest 9 [00:12:03] Awesome. I'm the DES News guy. I helped kind of. Kind of very not. I'm an atheist. And I ended up working at the Deseret News and I helped build their Mormon Times website, and which gave me an awesome, interesting perspective. I saw a lot of. Joanna talked a lot about the institutionalized church and the living church. And so I got my direction every day from institutionalized church. I mean, directly from general authority who's coming in saying what we should build and how we should build it and what we should print and how we should publish it. But every Day, I was getting emails in from around the world from the living church, and there were two very different stories, two very different landscapes, and that troubled me a lot. I had trouble reconciling, like, where does Mormonism live? Because the institutionalized church seemed to have way more sway over the direction it was going to go. But as John points out, we've got the numbers. And those emails did flood in every day from marginalized people saying, tell my story, tell my story. And so I thought that was really sweet. And I'm more moved by their story than the institutionalized church. And so I just want to say, as an atheist dad, though, living and raising a kid here in Utah, when I want to get my 5 year old to come, I say to him, and some people think it's just a cute thing I'm doing, but I say, come, come, you saint. And I don't want him to see Mormonism as this, as this backstory that his parents are keeping from him that, you know, he shouldn't participate in. He shouldn't realize his own heritage as a Utahn. And so, yeah, I side with the living church, and I think my kid will grow up feeling those stories as well.

Guest 10 [00:14:11] My name is Sophia shepherd, and I am an ex Mormon. And while I hear myself say that proudly and boldly, the reality is there is no such thing as an ex Mormon. And I think that's where a lot of ex Mormons get there. Negativity is that trying to escape that. But to say I'm an ex Mormon and really mean it would mean to erase 30 years of who I am, what got me to this beautiful place that I am, and the fact that I can look my children in the eye and my husband in the eye and know that I have a future ahead of me. And I'm unafraid and I love you all and I'm thankful for Jonathan Lynn's work. Without Mormon stories, my transition from my new consciousness that was just in November to where I am today would have been a lot more dramatic and probably stretched out for many years. So thank you for Mormon stories, thank you for being fabulous and I love you.

Personal Stories and Faith Journeys Begin

Guest 11 [00:15:14] So this will be brief, but as I'm looking around and as I've met some of you, I've heard some relatively unique stories. It seems like everyone has a unique journey, and I guess that's what I'm here to express. I don't feel particularly unique, but as I was reflecting there, I thought, well, maybe I am. We'll see if anyone can beat me on this aspect. Of my uniqueness. I was raised by married parents for 27 years, one of which was a Unitarian, one of which was a Mormon. So I feel some degree of,

Guest 4 [00:15:48] I'm

Guest 11 [00:15:49] not sure what mixed feelings as I sit here in a Unitarian locale discussing the intricacies and nuances of Mormonism. So maybe my journey is unique. I think we're all unique. But it's that uniqueness that brings us together. And I'm thankful that this organization exists, that people have been willing to dedicate the time, resources, energy that it must have taken to bring us all to this point. So I just want to express gratitude to John and all the other people who have been a part of the podcasts and making this happen and things that seems like are going to continue into the future and I hope I can be a part of that. So thank you.

Guest 12 [00:16:42] My heart is literally pounding. I feel like the 25 year old full of belief sitting in the pews is like it's telling me you have to go up.

Guest 4 [00:16:51] So here I am.

Guest 12 [00:16:53] But I just feel so much hope

Guest 13 [00:16:56] today

Guest 12 [00:16:58] coming back again. But it's just so awesome to be here face to face. The online community saved me in a time when I needed to know that I was normal, you know, but now I'm in a place where I want the face to face and I'm so grateful for this that's providing these local communities and being here is so awesome. And I just feel, you know, Mormon stories saved my marriage literally. And I feel like what we're doing here today is saving Mormonism for us, for people like us. And it's saving that thing that we love and providing a space for us. And I'm just so grateful to all of you. We are pioneers and I'm especially grateful to the pioneers who did it when there wasn't these mass numbers, people like John and Carolyn and Margaret and all the people who went before us really alone. And I'm so grateful to have company because I couldn't, would never do this alone. So just so grateful to meet all of you guys and I'm thankful for Mormon stories.

Guest 14 [00:18:08] I just really wanted to come up and stand here because this thing is awesome. I was like, this beats any Mormon looking setup. I love this place. Anyway, well, I'm Stacy and I'm not an ex Mormon or anything. I guess I'm just a human. And I was at BYU Idaho for four years and it was very difficult. About three years in, I decided I wasn't very on board with things when Prop 8 came about. That for Me was a huge deal because back in Oklahoma, where I'm from, I'm at the gay bars and gay clubs every other night. If I could live in one and wake up and watch a drag show and go back to sleep, I would be perfectly fine. So my journey at BYU Idaho ended actually with my bishop kicking me out my last semester, one class to go. And he told me that when he looked at me that he didn't see the countenance of Christ. And I wish I would have thought of it at the time, but I was very glad to hear that because I don't want anybody seeing a bearded man named Jesus when they look at me. And he also told me that I single handedly was driving the spirit out of my apartment, which was very impressive. I'm a force to be reckoned with if I can single handedly push away God's spirit. But it was an interesting journey and I felt very, very alone. All of my friends are LDs and my siblings are all active LDs and I'm really grateful to be here today. This is my first experience and exposure. I'm now in Logan, going to USU and I graduate in August. And so I'm very grateful. I'm really glad that I've met the people here that I've met. And John is great, He's a great man. I love him. And Carolyn, you're just an inspiration. Your book Goodbye I Love youe was amazing and it was really eye opening to me and I appreciate that and I appreciate everybody coming here and putting forth the effort to share your stories and I love all of you. You guys are all great. So thanks.

Guest 4 [00:20:16] Sorry.

Guest 15 [00:20:19] Mormon is such a word that I battle with. And yet being here, I really do realize that it's a word that's near and dear to my heart. And for me to admit that, oh,

Guest 4 [00:20:29] that kind of hurts.

Guest 15 [00:20:33] And it's just because there is just such a sense of betrayal in some ways from the church, between me and the church. But at the same time, I'm so grateful for the talks about, about not being able to wash it out and I shouldn't feel the need to, you know, it's just, you know, you can't get rid of half your life. Well, 30 years of my life, you know. But when I resigned, my bishop said something that bothered me. It just ticked me off. He's like, you know, Kylie, there is a place for everyone in this church. And I didn't, I don't believe him in the way that he said it. But when I look out at the people that are here, I can see it, and I feel that. And I'm just so grateful to John Dehlin. I don't comment. I don't send him letters. I don't send anybody anything. But, like, there have been so many people that have helped me in my journey. And I just want to say thank you to all of you for being here.

Guest 16 [00:21:33] Anyway, So much more of a commitment coming up here. But I just want to say that I've always loved the church, and I love how diverse this group of people is. I think my biggest problem with the church has always been that I'm an eternal optimist. And I've always seen areas in the church where I thought, you know what? It'd be so much cooler if we can include these people. Imagine what we could do if we had these people involved. And that's why I'm here today, because I see the church putting us into boxes after they've taught us our whole lives that we're infinite beings and that we're going to become gods. And I think it's really hard to take a group of people who you've told their whole lives you're infinite and you are large and contain multitudes, as Walt Whitman would say, then try to compartmentalize those people into boxes. And so I'm so grateful because I feel like this intellectual movement of, I think when you educate young people and women, you're gonna have some problems. And I think that they're finding that out in society, and they're finding that out in our church. And. Well, at least in my church. But I'm so grateful for that, because I know and, you know, I have a friend who is more of a spiritual person than she is. She wasn't raised lds, and she's the healer, but she said that her version of the Second Coming is that rather than Christ coming over the mountain and appearing to all of us, the Second coming will be a change of thought and a change of mind, and it will slowly happen in a collective around the world, and that's when we will have perfection. And I think we're seeing that. And I don't think there's any way we can avoid that any longer. And I'm so grateful, so, so grateful to be here. And I'm so full of love, and I thank everyone for having me and allowing me to be here and for being part of my life. And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Am.

Guest 17 [00:24:04] Wow.

Guest 18 [00:24:06] I had to think a lot about coming up here. I go to Church every Sunday. I've been a single mother since 1987, and I raised three daughters and I was excommunicated during most of that time. But I. I couldn't take my children away from the gifts that I felt I had been given and raised with. My parents were converts to the church and they sacrificed everything to make this part of their life. I didn't have pioneer stock back to Brigham Young or any of those wonderful things that. It's funny, you can start to feel like an outsider because you don't have those long roots. But I did have pioneer stock because my parents sacrificed, leaving behind their traditions of their families. And I found my children were embraced and loved and nurtured and taught in a way that I was never able to do if I had tried to do that on my own. And I have three beautiful, amazing, loving, kind daughters that I can't even imagine where. I just don't know how I would have gone through that process without this loving community around me. And it's not easy to sit in Relief Society and be quiet and know that my daughters are sitting in young women learning that their mother is next to a murderer or whatever doctrine is being taught at that time. But I knew I wasn't. And I knew there was a vast difference between me and someone who was willingly taking another person's life. And I knew that I could hold my head up high and that I was a good person and I had integrity. And if I sinned on the area of loving, then that's where I was when I listened to the whole Prop 8. I'm Canadian, so I have to tell you, part of the whole discussion about gay marriage is a little. I mean, the church is still conservative in Canada, but I would say not to the same extent. And I think, why are we spending all this time distracting ourselves and trying to keep people out instead of embracing people? And really, to me, if you want to be a true Christian, it's about learning to love and embrace one another. And if humanity in whoever they call as their creator, takes that lesson on and instead of trying to divide ourselves, learn ways to love and include, then that really, as some of you have mentioned, that is the millennium. To me, that is how this planet will change. And it won't change until then. And as another aside, I was sitting listening to Al Gore talk about An Inconvenient Truth. And I remember it struck me, this is our modern day Noah. He is telling us to smarten up, pay attention, and respect the planet around us. And how different is it than seeing, you know, that story of Noah building the ark and how many people just merrily go on the way and think that he's crazy. And I think we need to embrace things in the outside world. And I'm really grateful to be here and listen to all of you and whatever stages we're all at. And I am way far off from being able to love unconditionally, everybody. But I want to be there and I do want to actually tell Carolyn Pearson. I told John de Lynn this, that you single handedly changed my life when I read in my early 20s goodbye, I love you. Because I had been very black and white about what was right and wrong. And for the first time I got inside and empathetic in a way that I don't think I was. Well, I had never been exposed to. And it opened up my eyes and my thoughts in a way that I think changed the way I parented and befriended others and included people in my life. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful that you did that and thank you.

Participants Share Doubts and Gratitude

Guest 6 [00:30:20] Hi Jeff. My husband thinks I went to the restroom. I didn't have the heart to tell him I was coming up here.

Guest 9 [00:30:26] So.

Guest 12 [00:30:27] Hi.

Guest 6 [00:30:31] I hope this isn't a testimony meeting where I'm supposed to express my feelings about my beliefs in the church because I apologize, I'm very emotional today.

Guest 19 [00:30:41] That is all in question right now. So what I want to bear my testimony about is this community.

Guest 6 [00:30:47] So sorry. I've been in a lot of reflection lately. I have been in Utah for 13 years. I do not come from Mormon stock. My father converted to the church before he went to Vietnam and then went inact rejoined after Vietnam converted my mother and I was born into the covenant. So I don't have this great heritage that everyone else has. I just have what I learned from my parents. My father passed away when I was 15, 16 years old and a year later we moved to Utah because my mom thought that would be best for us because we were so lost with the emotion of losing my father. So having been in Utah this whole time, I wasn't allowed to question the church. I rebelled a little bit, well, kind of a lot. And I tried to express different views with my mom. And not to say that I have mommy issues, but my mom would make it sound like it was disrespecting my father because my father was the one who brought us to the church.

Guest 19 [00:31:58] My father was the reason that I'm Mormon. And so now 13 years later, finally feeling like I can start to question things and that there's other people out there who are feeling the same, who are going through the same is so comforting because I have always felt so different here in Utah.

Guest 6 [00:32:21] I have always felt like there is

Guest 19 [00:32:23] nobody there out there like me. And I'm not allowed to question this.

Guest 6 [00:32:29] The Mormon Stories podcast has been amazing for me. I am relatively new. I haven't listened to very much Carolyn. I haven't even gotten through all of yours yet. I apologize. I think I'm on the second of. I don't know how many, but it's

Guest 19 [00:32:46] going to be a feat.

Guest 6 [00:32:49] But the thing that I find so interesting about what this podcast has done for me and my husband, we've been married nine years, and when we met, we met on the Internet and his status per se was lds, but not the norm. I didn't know what that meant, but I was like, okay, I'll go with. Took us until just recently to realize that we both have the same ideals on a lot of this. And it was because of the Mormon Stories podcast and the other things that are out there. I had no idea that my husband had these things, thoughts or that he was questioning things. But I noticed he was spending a lot of time listening to this stuff and it started sneaking into my ipod and I started listening to it and we finally got to the point where we could discuss it. Not that we weren't afraid to discuss it before, but I don't think he knew that I had these thoughts. I didn't know he had these thoughts. And we didn't want to bring it up for the controversy sake of it. And so by this podcast, it has opened up a lot that we can listen to the podcast on our own time and then come together and talk about talk about it. And it has really strengthened our marriage. And I am so grateful for the many people who have been involved in making this community. My first entrance into the community was the Feminist Mormon Housewives Book Club that I went to. And I want to thank Katrina and Jared so much for opening up their homes so that we can have that experience. And that was the first time that I could face to face, meet people who had questions, whether I understood what they were talking about, agreed with them or not. It was just an awesome feeling to feel like there are people out there who understand and have issues like I do, and that we're so open to share it. And I love that we have this conference so that we can share our thoughts and share our questions and concerns and be open to everybody's ideas. I feel like everybody is Saying a lot about Carolyn Pearson tonight. And no offense, Carolyn, I don't have anything against you, but I want to focus on Joanna Brooks because

Guest 19 [00:34:48] I saw

Guest 6 [00:34:49] her in the hallway and I told my husband. I'm like, I don't think I can look at her without crying. Like, your talk today meant so much to me.

Guest 19 [00:35:01] I think what I got most out

Guest 6 [00:35:03] of it was just that you struggled, too.

Guest 19 [00:35:07] And I am in the middle of my struggle. Not even the middle. I think the beginning. It's giving me hope that at the end of all this, if it ever ends, that I can still be a Mormon. I don't know if that's gonna be my outcome. I really don't know. But that that opportunity is there and that you can still be happy. I can still be a Mormon. And the end gives me so much hope that wasn't there before today. I honestly, just a few days ago, was telling myself, I can't be a Mormon. I can't do this. There's so much behind this. And I just can't tell myself that I can still be Mormon after this. And I just have so much renewed hope, Joanne. And I want to thank you so much and being up here saying this to you, I'm gonna bawl later saying, I can't believe I did this because

Guest 6 [00:35:54] you're like my spiritual celebrity right now. I'm starstruck. But again, I just want to thank everyone for this. I want to thank the Unitarian Church for being open enough to allowing us to be here today and to accept, express our opinions. And I think that says a lot about the Unitarian Church and how much love they have for people as a whole that they can allow us to meet here in their church. And I do look forward to having more opportunities to meet more of you guys and mingle and know more of your stories so that we can kind of connect on a deeper spiritual level. Thank you.

Guest 20 [00:36:44] A couple years ago, when I was really, really mad because I was really. Everything had come to a head. That whole shelf of everything I'd put away just gone, smashed to pieces. And I was so angry and still going to church. And my husband's like, don't go. Bear in anti testimony. Don't do it. Because I was going to get up there and tell them all, this is so dumb. What's wrong with you? And I still went every Sunday and still try to go a lot of Sundays. And I'm grateful that I'm a Mormon. And I tell you, even though I go every Sunday, I quit every Sunday, too, because I Come home and I say, that's it. I can't believe they said that. Done. But you know, to be honest, I was born and raised in the church and I'm so grateful, so grateful for it because when I finally did bear my testimony, which thankfully to my husband wasn't an anti testimony, I said what really made me want to get up that fast and testimony meeting, which is the only meeting I think I born my testimony in, and I didn't even know how long because I don't want to disrespect the meeting. But we were listening to primary songs and Jesus said love everyone, came on and treat them kindly too. And I thought on all the things I've learned as a Mormon. It was to love everyone and treat them kindly and with respect. And I don't live here, I live in St. Louis. And we came out here and I'm so excited to be here for this conference. But that's the thing. I feel the most everywhere I go as a Mormon, I know I can love everyone regardless, regardless of any orientation. And I'm grateful for that. And I thank you so much for taking the time to put this together and for everything that everyone has shared. I'm grateful for the mother who shared about raising her three daughters. Because to be honest, today when I came, that's really what I wanted to know. How do I raise my kids here? How do I do it? Because when I have so many issues, I just don't know what to say when they have questions. And I want to make it right and I want them to be okay. I don't want them to be mad like I am or have been, because sometimes I'm not. But I just thank you all for doing all of this and for doing such a wonderful job. I enjoyed it all so much and I hope you have a wonderful evening.

Guest 21 [00:39:26] I really didn't plan on standing up here. I'm just old enough that I straddle the generations and I'm listening to these young mothers talk about feminist Mormon housewives. Oh, and how great that they can talk to each other and that they have the book club and they have all these things. I have to tell you a little bit about my history. I was raised in Provo. I'm just going to let that sink in for a second. My father was a convert, and the family joke was always that as he opened the door to the missionaries, my mother was in the kitchen clutching the wine bottles saying, no, don't do it. He converted and decided that he wanted to be among the Saints. So he took a job at byu. My mother cried from Palo Alto all the way to Provo, and I was born a year later. My mother. I love what you said about, how do you raise your children in this? Because I can tell you how. Because my mother did it. She never pretended that she knew everything. She never pretended that she believed everything she used to say to us when she would get really angry. If it's true, what are they so scared of? And that was such a blessing to me to know that I could doubt, I could have questions. I didn't have to agree with everything. Half my family wasn't Mormon, and that made it really difficult for me being in Provo. You guys talk about all of your. Not everybody has the pioneer history. And when I'd go to young women's and everyone was coming in with their stories of Brigham Young and whoever, and, you know, you can't look at them and say, well, you know, my great grandfather's nickname was damnit. It's not something that goes over well.

Guest 12 [00:41:33] So.

Guest 21 [00:41:34] So I learned very young to hide what I needed to hide to be able to survive. And my mother taught me how to do that and that it was okay to protect yourself that way. And I am so grateful to her, and I am so amazed that there is a congregation here today, because my mother never had that. She never had that. And I know that it was so difficult for her. She is. She goes to church every Sunday and she holds a temple recommend. But she also knows that she has a mind of her own and thoughts of her own and feelings of her own that don't always coincide with what she's supposed to think and see and feel. And I'm so grateful to her. And I am so grateful to all of you for making a place for people like my mother and people like me to feel welcome and to feel safe and to feel community. I also told my husband that I was going to thank Joanna, first of all, for dumping Trent so that he would marry me. But secondly, she is. She is an inspiration to all of us. And the fact that she. I'm sorry, should I just sit down now? I have a beautiful life, and a part of that is because of who I married. And I'm grateful for that. And I am grateful for the inspiration that you have given, not just to me and not just to my husband, but to so many people to know that it is okay to be who you are and that that can be accepted and valued. And I do value it. And thank you for letting me be.

Testimonies of Leaving and Moving Forward

Guest 2 [00:43:58] Oh,

Guest 22 [00:44:00] this is crazy.

Guest 5 [00:44:01] And it's cool. I left the church a year ago and I'm still glad I did it. It was the right thing for me. And I just want to say, I guess I'm sort of a humanist, I think. But the thing that I found is there doesn't have to be as big a disconnect as we make, like with our neighbors are still cool, you know, And I'm sure that there are places like maybe Provo. I'm good with that. We don't live too far from here and it's sort of a rainbow kind of an area. And so that sort of works in our favor.

Host [00:44:44] But

Guest 5 [00:44:46] I have a lot of faith in humanity and I think what some of the panel said that the change that needs to happen will happen. And I'm really sort of. I think it's cool to see all the young people in here. Part of my, I mean, in the 70s, before the blacks in the priesthood thing, before got put somewhat right, I mean, it still, it still affects everything. But I didn't live too far from here. And we had a whole lot of hippie elementary school teachers and there was a three dog night song, black and white, and they were setting us up as fifth graders to sing this song at a school assembly. What effectively was the church shut it down. I mean, and I think that was probably the beginning of my questioning. I mean, at the age of 10, it's like, what's going on here? Because, you know, there's not supposed to be differences. We somehow got that message from our hippie teachers or whoever it was, and from Mormonism, honestly, from Mormonism, that there weren't supposed to be differences. I mean, it says it in the scriptures, right? But there were and there still are. And that's probably. I mean, I'm the kind of person where I could probably do the, hey, history's history and whatever, and as long as the church is cool, I can stay here. I don't. It doesn't have to be true, I can stay here, but the inequality just is not. It doesn't work for me. But what I think is really cool, we have, okay, I have from my first marriage, a gay son and my wife from her first marriage, a gay daughter. And then she also has tbm. I mean, I hate to use the label, but they're in the church, kids, and they're okay. And for them, at some point in time, if there's a transition that's going to be made, it will be just like, yeah, well, that was how it was supposed to be. And so that's how it is. And I think that'll happen with time. And so I'm excited for that. I mean, there's some kind of momentum that's gonna make that happen, and I'm excited for that. And in some ways, I guess my only regret is, you know, I see people that can stay inside, which I don't think was right for me, but that will influence that. And I'm sure there's some of you here and

Guest 4 [00:47:32] that's.

Guest 5 [00:47:33] Hey, that's great. And thanks, John. And I want to say, I think the reason Carolyn Pearson, I think her protecting angel was her generation of women that would have left the church in Mass if something had happened to you. I know my mom, I mean, she was the Relief Society lady, you know, but there's a lot of love out there for you and for what you taught, I mean, all of us, about the divine feminine and humanity. And so thanks for that and thanks to all of you. And that's it.

Guest 23 [00:48:23] I'd like to bear my testimony that I don't know the church is true and it feels liberating to say that from a pulpit. Actually, there's not a lot that I would say that I do know, but I know I love my family. Especially grateful for my wife, who is always been very, not only loving, but understanding and tolerant from the time that before we were married, when I told her I didn't know the church was true and I didn't know that I would ever know. She's good at dealing with that kind of stuff. And like all of you here, I appreciate that, you know, people that are open minded, accepting and anxious to focus on inclusion and compassion rather than on whatever else. I don't think any other values will be as important as love. And I've always known that. I'm a social person. I like to be in groups. But I never thought that I really needed to have, you know, validation and people that would understand and all the rest. But, you know, over the back, when I was going to church more regularly, it started to wear on me that I felt like I always had to keep my mouth shut and that people would not be interested in me talking. And I didn't want to derail their lesson. I didn't want to chase the spirit out of the room. And so I appreciate, I appreciate this group. I appreciate those that have organized it and done a lot of work being the pioneers and all that you've done for paving the way. And I'm glad to be a part of this group and to feel like I have a tribe. So thanks.

Guest 24 [00:50:36] I wasn't going to come up here, but Betsy's my wife and I'm an attorney and I'm not going to let what she said go unrebutted. For the record, Joanna Brooks broke up with me 20 years ago because I wasn't Mormon enough. So in a way, this is an interesting closing of that circle. Now, to be honest, we had only gone out a couple of times,

Guest 9 [00:51:13] but

Guest 24 [00:51:13] I had an opportunity to talk to Joanna a little bit yesterday. I absolutely adore my wife. She is very active in the church. I am not. We weren't married in the temple. Joanna was right. I wasn't Mormon enough. And I've spent 20 years trying to figure out where I belong. I have served in a bishopric in the last few years. At a time when I was called to serve in that bishopric, I was very open about the fact that I was not a believing, not even a well behaved Mormon. But we were at a war that was very small and they needed the labor. It was a very shallow labor pool. And just a few months ago in high priest group, I said, I have tried to leave this church 20 times, but I keep being pulled back. Not because I believe it's true. And everyone in that high priest group, they know me enough to say, okay, that's just Trent, let him talk. But there is something about the community and the tradition. In fact, just before this testimony meeting started, I looked at Joanna and I said, I don't get this. This feels no different to me than Sunstone or other places where I've gone. But this testimony meeting has changed that for me. You know, it is nice to know there's a community of people out there that share those feelings that I do. There is something about this, as people have said, that you can't wash out. And probably 10 years ago I decided, why am I even thought, why am I even trying to wash this out? This is a beautiful thing. And so I'm hoping that we meet here every Saturday. It would make my Sunday so much nicer. But there is a spirit here. And I know that that's a cliche for a lot of us who grew up hearing about the spirit. But there is a spirit here and it is an incredible thing. And I would also just like to thank this community and it's nice to see faces associated with names and stories and thank you.

Guest 7 [00:54:11] Hi, my name is Scott and I'm a Mormon. I'm probably going to scare my wife to death, but I couldn't let the day go without thanking you for the support that you've given my wife and the support, the community that I found in you for myself. Carolyn, really interesting thought process here, and I just want to throw this out to you. I've spent probably 30 years in the youth organization in the church and I probably served in every single calling that there is in the young Men's organization. I just was released a few months ago as the young Men's president. Again, we need your support. We need people like you in the church talking to the youth. This is why 80% of the youth are leaving, because they don't hear your voices. Carolyn has been a really interesting example of that to you. She sits here. She said, I haven't had a recommend for 20 years, but I believe in the church and I love to be there. I'm a Mormon and I want to support my community. I would encourage all of you that the children of our Mormon heritage need to hear your voice. They love you. They love every hair on your head. Please do that for your children. Please be honest with them. Please, please bear testimony to them of the things that you know that are true. And thank you again for your loving, loving friends.

Closing Testimonies and Reflections

Guest 4 [00:55:55] Testify till pizza.

Guest [00:55:57] Oh, so this is a pizza limited testimony meeting. I was. My name is Mike Nelson and I was. My wife's probably worried what I'm going to say. My wife came. For those of you who I've talked to. She doesn't like me talking about her when she's not around. So I can talk about her here just a second. Because she doesn't like being talked about. She's like heavenly mother.

Guest 17 [00:56:20] So.

Guest [00:56:24] But I want to do something here. I want to take a picture of me with you all.

Guest 2 [00:56:41] Come on.

Guest 5 [00:56:48] Okay.

Guest [00:56:52] Sorry about that. Okay,

Guest 7 [00:56:57] let's see.

Guest [00:56:57] What was I going to say? I was going to say something good. Oh, I want to let you know that I'm. I in the Mormon Stories Salt Lake community. I organize the monthly lunch which just essentially says. Posts a thing that says, hey, show up at this place and eat and come and talk. So if you haven't come to that, several of you have try coming to it. I also want to say, John de Lynn, thank you so much for Mormon Stories. It's made a big difference for me. I'm glad to meet you in person. I gotta say, I was disappointed your daughter didn't come. I wanted my oldest daughter to meet your daughter so that she could see. So at least there'd be somebody the same age there yesterday. But. So you can pass that on to her. I'm disappointed. Even though I've never met any of you, thanks to the panel. I appreciated your words and even Jared, how long winded you were, I appreciated that. So. And. But it's all good. I mean, the long wind is good. What's that? Yeah. And so I hope to see all of you at other things. This is really enjoyable for me. And let's see, there's something else. Oh, I want to let you know that you know how Larry Wilmore is the senior black correspondent to the Daily Show. I was thinking the Daily show needs a senior Mormon correspondent because of all the Mormons coming through. So I actually wrote the Daily show yesterday and offered my services. I don't know how that's going to work out. My wife's rolling her eyes at me. My kids were all excited. They all gathered around the computer and writing this message. So if I get. If you see me on the Daily show in the future, which I really don't think will happen, but I think it'd be a good idea. Maybe it'd be a better choice, John.

Guest 20 [00:58:51] I don't know.

Guest 9 [00:58:53] All right.

Guest [00:58:53] But thanks. Good to meet you all in person.

Guest 17 [00:59:03] Okay. I could almost honestly say that my wife drugged me here today, but I didn't give up much of a fuss because I am interested in meeting a lot of you. This pulpit makes me think of John Edwards narrative Sinners in the hands of an angry God. I don't know if you ever read that, but hell and damnation speech. But anyway, I do want to thank John for his podcast. My wife kind of twisted my arm into listening to one back in November when she was first having her faith crisis. She had me listen to your podcast about how faithful members can help lovingly encourage spouses and family members through their transition and kind of help open. It opened my eyes to kind of see what she was going through at the time. And so I could probably say that that was one of the main factors that saved our marriage. So thank you for that. And this community has done wonders for my wife and myself. It has opened my mind to different possibilities. It's helped me break away from the literalist view and see a more symbolic and mythic view of the church and doctrines and scriptures. And it's just helped me see things in a little different light and be a lot more accepting of others views. Just kind of helps me realize that, hey, you know, we're all in this together as this community, as Mormons, but global picture as human beings, we're all in this together. So thank you.

Guest 4 [01:01:10] I just want to reiterate what others have said, that this testimony meeting really has been an excellent experience for me. And the other thing is that I'm really enjoying applauding after people speak and after the musical numbers. Give credit where credit is due, right? I think it's bringing a spirit of love rather than pushing it away. So want to say that, and thank you all.

Guest 25 [01:01:42] It's been a long time since I stood up in one of these. The words that keep coming to my head are, I was lost, but now I'm found. And I have felt that ever since. I listened to the podcast, the James Fowler Podcast, and I don't know who it was that went up and spoke to James Fowler after a conference and asked him, how do I, you know, how do I do this? How do I manage this crisis of faith? And James Fowler told him, well, you stopped praying, didn't you? And someone else in the podcast said, well, of course I did. That kind of stopped after I stopped believing in God. And I kind of stopped. Hit rewind. I'm like, whoa, these are my people. I finally had found someone who believed or who was expressing the feelings that I had been feeling. And he also talked about James Fowler, gave him this advice. He said, if you're standing in front of the train, get off the train tracks. And I had always thought that that's what was going to happen with my crisis of faith. I was going to be crushed. And hearing that helped me believe and see a different path that I could take, that I could continue on my journey, but just veer off a little bit to the side and not stand in front of those train tracks and get crushed. And that's what I'm grateful for, is now I've relearned how to pray to God, and not just to God, but to a heavenly mother, too. And had it not been for this, I wouldn't have even thought of that. And so I'm grateful for that. I mean, besides, there's so many ways that this podcast has changed my life and helped me be able to stay kind of stay LDs, but also to be able to be my true self as well. And that's it.

Guest 22 [01:03:44] So about two years ago, I started drifting away from the church for. For various reasons, but mostly because I was told that my love was a sin. And so it was hard for me to understand that and take that in. But I tried different things. And I actually go to this church most Sundays now, but it's never quite fit. And so it's nice to know that, like we've talked about today, that I can still be a Mormon, that I still am a Mormon, and that I'll always be a Mormon. And I really appreciate Mormon stories and John de Lynn for what he's done to help me, because although I had separated from the church and was never angry, it helped soften any rough edges that had been there and also helped me prevent being too angry with my family or any people that I love and still do. So I'm just grateful for that and grateful for this great community that we're developing. And I hope, as I've talked to people from different parts of the country and different parts of the world, I hope this can spread because this is a beautiful thing.

Guest 4 [01:04:58] I've had a lot to say already,

Guest 13 [01:04:59] so I'm going to be very pragmatic. If you have felt something good here today and you would like to put your shoulder to the wheel, there are things that you can do to help the work of this community that we've experienced. One, I think we've all recognized that. And this is, I think one of the geniuses of the core idea of Mormon stories is that we all have these stories. One of the things that's hard is when we don't feel we get a space to tell our stories in conventional Mormon settings. So tell your story. One, Number two, find a local community. If a local Mormon stories community doesn't exist in the place where you live, consider being the person who starts that. Number three, if there is or is not a Mormon stories community in your community, consider convening a house meeting, inviting other people that you may meet online through this community to tell their stories. Right. Because you tell your story, you tell your story, you're going to get comfortable with your story, and then you can do work in helping other people tell their stories. Right. Number four, consider supporting the community with a donation. I know that's not something Mormons typically do. Jewish people don't have a problem with it. So here I'm learning that from my husband's people. But I say all this in a spirit of profound gratitude for what we've experienced here today and in a desire that we can continue to be a blessing to each other. Thank you.

Wrap-Up and Closing Remarks

Guest 4 [01:06:27] All right, thank you, everyone. I think this was exactly what we had in mind when we planned this. Is Missy here? Okay. She is great. I just didn't see her coming. Missy's going to be our pianist for us for our closing song and we will be singing Come come, you Saints. Hopefully you picked up your sheet of music when you came in. And then Jackie MacArthur is going to give us. Yes, I'll just do it. Yeah, I'm fine. Jackie MacArthur will give us our closing prayer and then we can have pizza. It may take a minute for us to, like, get drinks and stuff out, since we've all been enjoying this so much. Carolyn, will you lead the music for us? Will you lead the music for us? John wants you to. I have a sheet of music. You don't have to. But. We're singing. Come, come. He sings. We can stand and. Sorry. One more quick note. I'm just gonna say one more announcement really fast. As you probably can tell, we recorded everything. If anyone who spoke in the last hour isn't comfortable with that being recorded, just contact John afterwards. But I thought it was pretty obvious that there's a recorder right here. Just let us know if you don't want that shared in any way. Thanks,

Guest 19 [01:08:06] Sa.

Guest 22 [01:09:23] Lord.

Guest 2 [01:09:50] All is well.

Guest 5 [01:09:53] All is well.

Guest 25 [01:10:58] Hallelujah.

Guest 20 [01:11:14] Heavenly Father, please fill our hearts with gratitude and love for all the good things in this world and all the good people. And please help us to learn more

Guest 22 [01:11:30] fully

Guest 20 [01:11:32] that each of us is the answer to the prayers of our fellow human beings. For those of us who claim to be followers of Christ, help us to be followers indeed, and not just in word. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Guest 3 [01:11:59] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest 2 [01:12:14] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to

Guest 19 [01:12:46] strive

Guest 2 [01:12:48] Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo Hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.