Mormon Matters Podcast Re-Launch and Format

Dan Wotherspoon [00:00:00] Mormon Matters Podcast is a production of the Open Stories foundation and is seeking to build financial support separate from Mormon Stories Podcast. All donations to Mormon Matters are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonmatters.org.

Guest [00:00:38] Come, come, ye saints, not toil nor neighbor fear.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Hello, and welcome to a very special edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Delinquent. Today I am, and we are announcing kind of a special moment in our history. In conjunction with the launching of the Open Stories foundation as an official 501 nonprofit, we are announcing the revitalization or the restoration of Mormon Matters Podcast. Many of you will remember a few years back that I did about 20 episodes on Mormon Matters where we would just sort of have a panel discussion where we'd bring on two or three or four sharp, thoughtful, witty people, and we would have just candid conversations about current events within Mormonism. And that podcast has been on hold or on hiatus for a few years now, and recently I've been feeling the pangs to bring it back. And so I've enlisted the help of a few close friends. Dan Wotherspoon, who many of you will know, has been helping me on Mormon Stories do some of the interviews. He has agreed to sort of become the host of Mormon Matters Podcast. And for our inaugural relaunching of Mormon Matters, we brought on Joanna Brooks, who has appeared on Mormon Stories, telling her own story, but she also blogs and writes for many different online locales, including, as of late, feminist Mormon Housewives. Welcome, Joanna.

Joanna Brooks [00:02:29] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Thanks for joining us.

Joanna Brooks [00:02:33] Oh, I'm so happy to be here.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:02:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] And also we have Heather Olson Beale, who I've known for, I don't know, at least two decades. I'd say we go way back to the time when I used to attend her ward in Huntsville, Texas, when I used to visit my mom on the weekends when I was growing up and we knew each other at byu. And she blogs probably all over the place, but specifically at a relatively new website called dovesandserpents.org. is that right, Heather?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:03:06] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Well, welcome to this podcast.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:03:10] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] And, Dan, let me just now just take the time to turn it over to you and you can tell us a little bit more about what our listeners can be expecting and you can kick us off for our show today.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:03:25] Thanks a lot. Sounds great. I will do that. Welcome, everybody. I really am looking forward to this chance to host this each week. The way John and I have talked about Mormon matters, this will be a weekly podcast in which we kind of take on the different, different news items that maybe have come about in Mormonism that week, as well as just typical or just sort of trending topics. They may not be something really exciting that week, but they're certainly being buzzed about on the Internet and in other ways. Our basic format will be a panel discussion. As John talked about, we're never going to try to go more than an hour, so this won't be one of the Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Epic five hour interviews.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:04:11] Do I hold the record with Tyson and Randy atheism with probably six and a half or seven hours?

John Dehlin [00:04:17] I think you do.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:04:18] I'm guilty of that. So I'm looking forward to the construction of an hour. Well, and we probably recorded for 12 hours, those guys and I. It was epic. But anyway, so each week we'll take two to three topics that have sort of come up in the news and we'll discuss them. And then with Heather and Joanna and John, we'll also add sort of some more panelists that will just kind of have a group that will rotate in. We'll kind of all contact each other and see who's feels like talking that week. Or if the topic that we're proposing seems particularly hot for somebody, we'll make sure that they become a panelist. And then we may also enlist a specific topic expert or something occasionally who won't be really one of the regular panelists that will rotate through, but we'll bring them in if the topic requires something like that. So again, welcome to that. And that's going to be our plan. Does anybody else have any qualifications or anything that they understand differently about what Mormon matters should be shaped like?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:05:18] Nope.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:05:20] John.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] I would say, you know, I'd love to keep it fun and informal. We should never feel the pressure that we're going to solve any issues or fix anything. It'd be cool if we could have a good time, stay constructive and upbeat, but not shy away from some of the more important issues. I don't know, those are a couple thoughts that come to my mind.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:05:43] Sounds great. Well, we'll do our best. Of course, we're not dealing with light topics at all today. Just for our listeners to know that the two basic main topics that we're going to talk about, plus a couple of short news items as well. The two main topics will be sort of sex in the Mormon Church, especially among Mormon singles. We're going to bounce off Nicole Hardy's girt.

Joanna Brooks [00:06:06] Is your voice quavering when you say that?

Dan Wotherspoon [00:06:13] Well, I actually was looking in my notes for how I described it there. One of the articles that I read in preparation is called Sex and the Single Mormon. So maybe we can just call it, call that our topic right now, Sex

John Dehlin [00:06:26] and the Single Mormon.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:06:27] Yeah, thanks a lot. You guys are starting me off really well. So I appreciate that. So that's one of the ones we're going to talk about. And then the second one is we're going to react. There's just been some news lately with the church and immigration and different laws that are being passed in Utah right now and different Mormons and different doctrinal principles and things on each side of the issue. So we thought we'd have a nice discussion of that. So those will be our two main topics. But and John's already introduced everybody as far as the panelists go. So I'd say why don't we start right in with these will be our two really short discussions. And the first one is going to be introduced to us by Heather, if she would. And again, it's related in the general area of Mormonism and sexuality, specifically Prop 8. But go ahead, Heather, if you don't mind framing this little tidbit that people might be interested in.

A Column on Same-Sex Marriage Sparks Conversation

Heather Olson-Beal [00:07:20] Okay, sure. So last week, Mel, who writes a column for Doves and Serpents where John said, you know, I write for as well, did a post on Valentine's Day about same sex marriage. And just briefly, she a couple years ago during the whole Prop 8 debacle. Well, that was opinionated, wasn't it? Debacle. She and her husband and a couple of friends posted some short little videos on YouTube expressing their frustration, I guess, with the church's involvement in Prop 8. And they were asked to take the videos down. And it was definitely implied to them by their local leaders that if they didn't, they would be released from their callings and that their temple recommends would be taken away. So after a lot of heartache, really, and anguish, they took them down. And from what she wrote in her post, it was something that she regretted and really had agonized over. And so she was writing this on Sunday night and just decided kind of on a whim to put it up and was, I think, totally blown away by the response that it got. It was picked up kind of in lots of different places. Joanna wrote a piece for it on Religion Dispatches.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Heather, I have to jump in here. Sorry. Okay, so I'm Sitting at my desk at Utah State University. Most of my colleagues here are not lds. My, my friend from Texas, he's in my cohort, turns to me and says, dude, dude, Mormonism's the top, the top post on a Reddit. What? And it made Reddit.

Joanna Brooks [00:08:51] Yes, it did.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] That's pretty big deal.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:08:53] The last I heard it had been seen almost 300,000 times on YouTube. So that's pretty big for a Mormon. What's usually a blip. And I think she was pretty surprised by that.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] We should probably do a shout out to Jason Echols, who I think is the guy that originally posted that to Reddit.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:09:13] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Yeah, he also goes by Chino Blanco, I think on the blog.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:09:19] Okay, again, I looked at the video that Mel had done too, and it's only two or three minutes long. If any of our listeners want to access that, what would be a good search for them to do in order to, to be able to pick that up?

John Dehlin [00:09:32] We can post it on this blog post.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:09:34] Okay. Okay. But YouTube. Yeah. Mormon Prop 8. Melanie Selko. Anyway, those are the different possibilities. Okay, but again, go to our website as we post. So. Terrific. Anybody? So Besides Reddit and 300,000 hits, I'm sure it was viewed quite a few times a couple of years ago. So these are probably at least 100,000 new hits.

Joanna Brooks [00:09:59] Yeah, that's my guess. I had the pleasure of talking to Mel this week. I wanted to do a story on her for Religion Dispatches and I just. There's a very luminous quality to her video. I mean, she's a Mormon mom talking about her kids in nursery and the great things our children learn in primary and how it just collided with the Prop 8 campaign and the courage it took to put it back up. I mean, Mel explained to me, and I think she did this beautifully, her own Doves and Serpents piece was that, you know, there was something about that confrontation with her local leaders or that even that discussion with her local leaders that she thought she would spiritually profit by. That's my dog. I'm sorry, I'll get it out of my house.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] We're keeping it real here on Mormon Matt's.

Joanna Brooks [00:10:44] Oy vey. She thought we're taught as LDS people that when we obey that it profits us spiritually. And she found something just different happened, that it actually bruised relationship to faith in general. So I thought that was a really poignant observation. And now I'm going to go put my dog outside. Discuss.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] First of all, Heather, were you done? Were you going to say Anything else about it before we move on or before we talk more about it?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:11:10] I don't know. The only thing I think was interesting was that in comments and there were hundreds of them in various places. There were people who said basically you should just leave the church because you're so out of line. And then there were people kind of from the other side that were saying, yeah, you should leave the church because the church is so bad and why are you sticking with it, you know, kind of on two very opposite polar opposites, I guess. And so it was interesting to read people's comments. And then there were people who actually attacked, you know, her integrity and said this could never have happened. It's all hearsay. So it was real. It was curious just for me to see all of that.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah, it's kind of hard to. It's kind of hard to go out there with your real name writ large. And so props to Melanie for being willing to do that. And people really do attack you from all sides. And it can be very painful and very, very stressful. I think I read some of her back channel feelings just about how incredibly, overwhelmingly stressful it was for her.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:12:18] Yeah,

Dan Wotherspoon [00:12:20] well, terrific. Well, that's great, everybody. Please check it out if you're interested in that and appreciate the good discussion. And I really thought Joanna's point about spiritually bruising case where obedience hurt her spirituality. I think that's a terrific thing to keep in mind. And that might give some language to some of us who've sort of had that experience too.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] Dan, I'll just add real quick that it's kind of weird to contemplate praying about something and getting an answer in a different direction than what you think the church would expect you to get. And what do you do with that? It's an interesting example of following the spirit, but in a way opposing the church. What a cross to have to bear, I guess. Must be really hard.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:13:08] We had.

Joanna Brooks [00:13:09] Go ahead, Joanna. I didn't think that. I mean, it's something. I don't know that it's weird. I just thought, Melanie, I mean, people have been in that position before, you know, where you have. And we're always taught there's this chain of command, you know, what you say is, you know, you're responsible for your own stewardship. You can receive revelation for yourself, for your family, but you don't, you know, conflict with the people who are in positions of power over you. But I thought, you know, Melanie did such a beautiful job articulating, you know, really, this is. I got Answers to prayer, just like anyone else. I prayed as hard as anyone else and I got different answers. It's what do I do?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:13:48] Right?

Joanna Brooks [00:13:48] Just an honest, lucid dilemma.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:13:52] Yeah, well, someone wrote on one of the comments there, the problem with this is that when I watch your video, I don't feel the spirit, therefore it's wrong. And I was like, yeah, that really is a problem, because when I watch the video, I do feel the spirit. So what, you know, who's. Who's right or does one of us have to be right and one of us have to be wrong? You know, so it touches on a bigger issue, I think.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:14:17] Absolutely. And that reminded me a little bit too of Sunstone when it was reporting on Prop 8, and it sort of did a summary thing and it posted, I don't know, seven or eight short essays by people about their experiences over the Prop 8 debate. And there were a couple of them that where somebody had said, you know, I was predisposed to be against Prop 8, but then my prayers actually led me to support Prop 8. And so, you know, it was completely the opposite within the same, you know, six or seven essays that we were reading of people claiming prayer answers on both sides. So it does just really highlight that dilemma of us always probably bringing something to the prayer experience. And it's not a hotline where we're fully getting. Getting things straight. But I don't know if that threw it off or put it in a bad direction, but everybody good on that one. It's good to alert people and maybe things will come up if there's more buzz about that and if it goes again, we may bring it up again.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Regardless of how you feel about Prop 8, props to Mel for putting her name out there and doing something courageous.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:15:27] Yeah, agree. All right, John, you had the next one. Just another one of the brief mention type pieces. Why don't you go ahead?

Sexual Abuse Allegations Against LDS Piano Performers

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Yeah, well, I guess last week in Mormonism, it was revealed that the five Browns, the five young LDS piano performers who all, I think, went to Juilliard and are kind of known across the world as incredible classical pianists. It came out following a car crash involving both their parents. That Keith Brown, I believe is his name, who is the father of the five Browns, has been charged and has, I guess, pled guilty to, I don't know, sodomy and sexual abuse of three of his daughters. And he'll be going to jail. And it's kind of a really traumatic and sad kind of story. It's very ironic for me, or interesting. I grew up with this family in Houston, Texas. They were in my stake. Their grandfather, I guess the grandfather of the five Browns was a bishop and a ward of mine in Houston. And I was in Saturday's Warrior, the Houston, Texas stake production of Saturday's Warrior where Keith Brown played. Cue Joanna. That was awesome. Heather, you want to join in?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:17:01] I'll take a pass.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] I was Ernie. I was the 12 year old Ernie who says he really blew it in daddy's nose. But Keith Brown was Todd, the guy who sings what Paper Dream, the convert that Wally Kessel. Wally Kessler and Harold Green converted and Lisa was Julie, the one who marries the convert. And this is Wally Kessler who was my brother who's now CIO for the church. Anyway, that's kind of an aside but I knew these people and so it's a real shocker for me to see them in the headline in the headlines in sort of a different way. And you know, I'm pretty sure that, that Keith had some pretty significant callings during some of this time. And it just, it's really tragic because this is kind of the family you would least expect some of this would be going on. So that's my best attempt at setting it up. Anyone have any thoughts or feedback at all?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:18:07] Oh, it's just stunning. Aside from saying just how despicable I guess it is, you know, the bravery that it took for those, for those kids to come out this many years later. And I read somewhere that part of their motivation was learning that their father was planning on acting as an agent for some other youngish performers. And then at that point I guess they kind of started talking and decided hey, we've got a. We've got to come out with this.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:18:41] So my understanding is he. Go ahead.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:18:45] No, I just said it's brave. That had to take guts.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:18:49] Yeah, absolutely. My understanding is that they confronted their father about in 2006 and sort of kept it there. And at that time he quit being their professional manager. And then it was this switch to where he was going to start managing a younger talent again that they decided to really confront him. And I'm not, not sure all the decisions and how the car crash was related or something where it came out there. But obviously they've been dealing with for some time. He's now pled guilty quite quickly and my understanding sentencing is within a couple of weeks.

Joanna Brooks [00:19:27] It's a shame that nothing surprises me. Nothing surprises me, I'm afraid.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:19:33] Just a tragedy for sure. Anyway, all our best to them and that's just chance for us to share with the wider audience something that they may not have heard of. If they're not Utah centric or always reading the Mormon blogs and things.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] It seems like these things are always tragic, but the extent to which they're made public and disclosed is the degree to which maybe we can be aware of them, be more careful, be more protective, and encourage others to make sure that they protect themselves. And it seems like open, candid discussion of this, no matter how painful, leads to good things. Do you guys. Are there any arguments against sort of open public discussion? I had a friend close to me who actually knows this couple as well say she was really sad that they had to go public with this. I wasn't sure whether there's some wisdom in that or whether these things should pretty much always come out.

Joanna Brooks [00:20:32] I think there's a long standing debate about whether victims are survivors of sexual violence, what it means to go public for people, you know, especially in communities where any kind of violence or a sexual, you know, assault perpetrated at someone can tarnish the victim. Right. I mean, we place such an esteem on purity. And especially you think about this family in the limelight, the beautiful, the blonde hair. And, you know, so, you know, victims or survivors always wrestle with, what would this say about me? Will they say that I'm damaged? You know, so, you know, it's. I think personally, it's great to reduce the stigma because it's so common. It's just so common. It's, you know, it's. One out of every, you know, three survives in their lifetime some form of sexual assault, molestation, and says something.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Woman. Right. One out of three women.

Guest [00:21:30] Yeah.

Joanna Brooks [00:21:30] I think it's one out of four men. I mean, it's. It's just not uncommon. And so. Yeah, I mean, it. Yeah, yeah. It's not. It's. If it happened to you, it doesn't say anything about you other than you've survived something grievous and you should feel good about what you did to survive. And, you know. Yeah. That's all I have to say.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:21:56] That was terrific. Thank you. Anybody else, before we. We jump into one of our two major ones.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Nope, we're good. All right.

Nicole Hardy's Essay on Celibacy and Mormon Sexuality

Dan Wotherspoon [00:22:05] Joanna has volunteered, or I have asked her and she's agreed to frame this difficult discussion. I'll never slur on S's again or stutter on S. But Joanna, go ahead. Why don't you give us a wider framing of both Nicole's piece and sort of the discussions it's generated. And then perhaps Peggy Fletcher Stack's article In a recent Salt Lake Tribune that sort of reported on the different angles

Joanna Brooks [00:22:38] that people are taking, right on January 7th in the new York Times, in the big national edition Sunday edition, they regularly run a column called Modern Love. Holly Welker had a terrific piece in there a few months ago about being a missionary and just wanting someone to give her a hug. And on January 17, a Mormon writer named Nicole Hardy, who lives in Seattle, published this amazing essay about her, describing her visit to Planned parenthood as a 35 year old Mormon virgin and all that had brought her to that place. You know, her experience of being celibate for, as she wrote, the first two decades of her adult life and what gradually led her to prepare to begin sexual activity even though she wasn't married and she'd done everything right, according to her essay, she'd waited and prayed and hoped and prayed and hoped and prayed and just found herself at this point, as she described it, feeling increasingly like a child trapped in a woman's body, increasingly disconnected. And I just found the essay gave me goosebumps. I just put it up immediately on my Facebook page and I said, this gives me goosebumps. And I wrote, you know, finally, Mormon women are telling the truth about our lives. And I think, you know, it was a remarkable essay in many ways and it generated a lot of attention. It generated a lot of online discussion. It was frequently re posted and recirculated and made its way to Peggy Fletcher Stack's you know, weekly article for the Salt Lake Tribune. A lot of the commentary that followed on it focused on how single LDS people deal with sex. Is there a culture or religion that puts greater emphasis on sex, both its prohibition and its eternal significance? Literal, eternal procreation? I can't think of one. Maybe one of the varieties of yoga affiliated with Hinduism. But Mormonism really emphasizes sex. And so how do actual single people who are in their maturity deal with this prescription to be celibate? And a lot of the commentary was, you know, tended to be a little judgy, right? How could it not be? Oh, she, you know, because Nicole admitted she became sexually active. But to me, just some of the intense beauty of her essay she describes in the last few paragraphs being in the examination room at Planned Parenthood and having a woman healthcare provider touch her and ask her permission to touch her in certain ways and tell her exactly what she was going to do as she was giving her a physical examination preparatory to having an IUD inserted. And the intimacy of that scene impacted Nicole as the author so deeply and impacted me as the reader. And I found it really evocative of some of the more intimate moments, shall we say initiatory type moments within LDS culture. But the bigger questions it raised about sexuality within the world of Mormonism and how it affects so much beyond the bedroom, how it affects the way we relate to one another in our communities. It was just an earth shattering piece, I thought. And there's been lots of chatter. What did you guys all think? Heather, did you like it?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:26:12] Oh, yeah, I liked it. I thought it was amazing. But I also thought it was cringe worthy. I mean, I felt like, almost like a peeping Tom, I guess. Like I was reading something or knowing something about someone that I shouldn't really have been privy to.

Joanna Brooks [00:26:27] I guess it spared no details. That's true.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:26:30] Exactly. I mean, I kind of felt similarly when I read Elna Baker's book. Kind of like, whoa, okay, this is these people that are just laying it all out, you know, So I admired them for that. At the same time, yeah, when I said cringe worthy, I'm not saying that in a judgmental way, but I really did just kind of feel like, oh, should I be knowing this? This seems so, so intimate that in a way that it was. It was hard to read. But again, you know, I admire her,

John Dehlin [00:27:01] so I'm channeling myself from 15 years ago. Joanna, when I hear your description, you use words like beautiful and I don't know what other words you used, but let's say a conservative person who's listening might almost feel like you were glorifying this decision of hers. And I know you well enough to know that you look at things in a more nuanced way. But what about a traditional believing LDS person who would say that this was sort of almost glamorizing or glorifying promiscuity or the violation of the law of chastity?

Joanna Brooks [00:27:40] Oh, sure. And lots of, you know, lots of very observant folks said that online. Absolutely. I just looked at it as, I mean, I come at it as a writer. I come at it as someone, you know, when I read I'm a partisan of human. The human experience, you know, and there are so many faithful people who know what it means to arrive in your mid-30s and look around and say, you know, what if Prince Charming isn't coming? And the article, you know, her essay reviews very difficult conversations she had with people at church about why she wasn't getting married. She was too self sufficient. She was too. I just thought it was honest and luminous in its humanity and I see the point of writing as to capture the nuances of our lives, not to prescribe a moral end. But I can certainly appreciate those who thought it might glorify or make light of the sacrifices of people who do choose to remain celibate, including lots and lots of gay LDS people.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:28:47] Very good. Very good. Let's talk about some of the different things that she said that at least Peggy, in her article, sort of brought up as the challenges. One of them that came off right up the bat was in response to a line in Nicole's piece that says, I had the distinct sense of remaining a child in a woman's body. Virginity brought with it arrested development on a level of a handicapped condition, like the Russian orphans I'd read about, whose lack of physical altered their neurobiology and prevented them from forming emotional bonds. Similarly, it felt as if celibacy was stunting my growth. It wasn't just sex I lacked, but relationships with men. Entirely too independent for Mormon man, too much a virgin for the other set. I felt trapped in adolescence. And so that seemed to be the piece that it seemed like a lot of the critics that at least Peggy cited were saying, sex is not an answer to the problem of not being mature. In other words, there's plenty of sexually active people who are not mature. Somebody was pointing out. But what did you think about the nuances of the different sort of people who took that on? One was apparently even a former employee of the Salt Lake Tribune who's now Relief Society president back east, who was basically saying, this isn't a compelling argument to me. What did you think of their responses?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:30:18] Well, I'm. And this is just. We're just speculating, right? I mean, I'm guessing that if I were in that position and I read her piece, and if I had felt like I had denied myself, you know, any kind of sexual relationship, I would want sort of to criticize her for kind of throwing it in. I mean, I'm guessing that I might want to do that, like, feel like, well, I've done this really hard thing and you just kind of gave up. But I'm taking the higher road. I mean, that might make me feel better or feel less bad about my own position. So, I mean, I can sympathize with people who feel that way, I guess, or for people who feel like, well, I'm mature even if I am not sexually active. So, you know, sort of don't hurl that accusation, I guess, you know, my way. I don't know.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:31:06] I understand. I think that's terrific without, you know, necessarily implying that that's the core of where that came from. It was interesting. And early in the article, Peggy says, you know, Hardy's e swept across the Mormon blogger nacle. But the people who argued against her reasoning said they blamed her. She says they blamed her, not the Utah based church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, for her predicament. She misunderstood Mormon principles.

Joanna Brooks [00:31:31] I mean, come on, haven't you been. I mean, tell me I'm the only person that sat in the singles ward and looked around and watched the game of musical chairs unfold and just got the sense that it wasn't going to work. What do you do? I mean, really, what do you do? And I, you know, and that's just reality for thousands upon thousands of very good Mormons. And she lived with that for 10 years, you know, so what does she do? I mean, there are people who have sex and God still loves them and they come back a few years later and it's all good, you know, but I don't know, I just, I'm allergic to the judgy. I'm just really. Because, because life is long and life is complicated and God loves us and. Well, see, I'm a liberal Mormon. What do I know?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:32:18] But I feel like other issues, I mean, I related to it in terms of some other issues as well. That whole idea of kind of being stuck in adolescence. I feel like that sometimes. I feel like sometimes I'll write something online or whatever and then I'll think I'm gonna get in trouble for that. And then I think, but, wow, I'm a big girl now. And so I'm not accustomed to getting in trouble like I did when I was 12. Or a friend of mine recently was told that she couldn't wear pants to church anymore. And that was a, you know, I wear pants. Oh my gosh, you know. And then Nicole Hardy also talked about rebellion in the Mormon Church. You know, watching Brokeback Mountain, you know, gasp and R rated movie. And I read that and I was thinking, yeah, and I wear pants. I mean, like the thought that that' Rebellious is so, you know, it's just laughable. But, you know, or we had a Relief Society lesson about modest dress and chastity. And so I have these experiences and I feel like. But I'm an adult now and so it feels silly to me to talk about chastity and modesty in the same way. It's not even more nuanced than it was when I was 12. And so that feels I related to that whole idea of arrested development in other aspects besides just sexual, well, that

Joanna Brooks [00:33:35] helps me put something into words I was kind of trying to reach for. I like to hear John comment on this, too. You know, sex is only one part of intimacy. And I think the essay that Nicole wrote captured all these different aspects of social intimacy. Who feels entitled to say what to whom at church? How people touch one another, you know, casually or friendly shaking hands, or how people comment on private, serious dimensions of one another's lives in the church context. And is there a sense in which, you know, the focus on sexual prohibition arrests our intimacy in other ways as Mormon people getting along with one another? You know, that the focus on that we have from the time we're 12, you know, on through about who touches whom where, which dotted line, how wide the strap is on the shoulder, you know, arrests intimacy that allows us to be more open and honest with one another as we go through very human struggles in search of something better.

John Dehlin [00:34:34] As I try and piece through this, I almost feel like Tevio when he goes through his on the one hand. But on the other hand, on the one hand, I can't think of anything more Mormon and more central to my Mormon identity than the law of chastity. I mean, my wife's the only person I've ever been with to this date. I didn't mess around before I got married, and that was like, core to who I was. And I judged everyone by that criteria. And, you know, I've been taught my whole life that sexual transgression is next to murder in severity. So that's kind of the one hand. On the other hand, I mean, how many things has the church changed on birth control, Working women? Yeah, exactly. And so. And so, so many things have been rolled back. The word of wisdom was just a suggestion, and then it was made, you know, and there's so many things I, you know, I wonder, like, could it be. Could it be that the law of chastity was like, we could look at the law, you know, will it be that in a hundred years, we look on the 20th century version of the law of chastity like we now look on the Ten Commandments? It's like, yeah, that was good for the people back, you know, 3,000 years ago. But that law of chastity thing that they did in the 20th century was just so passe, so unsophisticated. I mean, can we conceive of a Mormonism where people, you know, who are in their late 20s and early 30s, as it becomes harder and harder to find a mate. By the way, can we conceive of a more flexible Mormonism where people like this don't get excommunicated or ostracized or shunned if they're open and candid about what they're doing. Like, I'm just trying to figure out if there's a way for this to fit with the future of Mormonism or if these people are just destined to be rejected.

Joanna Brooks [00:36:36] Oh, I don't know about that.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:36:41] You don't see flexibility?

Joanna Brooks [00:36:42] No, I can't see that. I could see greater. I could see a greater acknowledgement of privacy and a greater acknowledgement of difficult choices. But, you know, the principles are in place and those are pretty firm. Are you going to live a devoted life? Do you take a hiatus from that for a while? I don't know.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:37:08] I mean, I feel like a lot of the rhetoric has actually been ramped up as opposed to being diminished. I have a 14 year old daughter, so that's kind of on my radar. My 10 year old daughter was treated in the last year or so to a lesson about chastity, which she thought was just totally weird. I was at a conference out of out of town and she sent me an email that said I just went to an activity days, but it was so weird because we talked about chastity and she was like. And I was thinking, why are we talking about this? We're 10. And I was like, yeah, why are you, you know. And then someone even said, what does chastity mean? And the, and the teacher said, oh, it means like, like when you're like messing around with your boyfriend and you're

Joanna Brooks [00:37:51] doing things at 10, it should be, did your father touch you inappropriately? What about your next door neighbor? I hate to say it, so I'm

Heather Olson-Beal [00:37:59] like, so thank you for planting ideas in my 10 year old's head that she didn't need. But it felt really awkward to her. So there's that and then there's the whole virtue being added to the young women's values. And then for me, I'm like, well, do the young men have lessons about virtue or is it only the young women that were worried about being virtuous? Because that's certainly not being highlighted for the young men. So I feel like rather than it sort of becoming more open, it's becoming more, more narrowed. If anything, that's my perspective.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Heather, your comments remind me of that podcast we did with Leland White where he talked about in the old interview questions before the mission, they used to ask if you had any sexual experiences with animals and then they discovered that experimentation with animals spiked dramatically, so they took that question out.

Joanna Brooks [00:38:51] Exactly.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:38:52] That's terrible. But yes, so funny.

The Law of Chastity, Pornography, and Sexual Sin

John Dehlin [00:38:55] No. I'm here at Utah State University doing psychology research, and we actually have developed a treatment for what we call compulsive pornography viewing. And I could tell you that both in our compulsive pornography viewing studies and in my scrupulosity treatment research, sexual thoughts and pornography use are just dripping with every LDS student I see. And so there's this interesting. Let's just say that in this Tevye dilemma that the law of chastity stands and it's inflexible. I think something that comes back to what Joanna was talking about was, okay, great, we have the law of chastity, but what do we do with the reality of where people really are in their daily lives? Because I'm telling you, these people who are struggling with compulsive pornography viewing, they're all returned missionaries.

Guest [00:39:50] Right?

Joanna Brooks [00:39:50] Or is there a way we can come at human sexuality from a place where we don't introduce it under the sign of prohibition? Right. The first time you hear about sex in public, in church, it's don't. Which gives it so much dark power. What if we came at it from a place that was robustly affirmative? Like, this is a crucial part of who you are. It's a part of your spiritual life. It is not to be abused by anyone. Because frankly that, I mean, think about your 10 year old daughter, Heather. I mean, that's. Any sexual contact that happens with a 10 year old is pretty much abusive and that includes child on child. But, you know, is there a way to come at it that is affirming and robust rather than prohibitive? Because that just feeds the addictions, it feeds the obsessions down the road, right, John?

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah. And you know, I've said this in other podcasts, but the number one way to guarantee an increase in severity and frequency of sexual thoughts is to tell people that they shouldn't have sexual thoughts. That's been proven. It's called the White Bear experiment. It's been proven in the field of psychology for 20 or 30 years now. There's just no question.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:41:01] Well, terrific. We probably have a couple more minutes on this particular topic. Let me hit two things. Well, first of all, let me answer. You know, you guys are the panelists. You're doing an awesome job. But a couple things quickly occurred to me that there could be some movement. You guys were a little bit pessimistic. You're thinking things are there's no hope for it. One of the things I think we are seeing improvement in, and I think there's possibility for more of this is the whole sin next to murder chart. I don't hear it nearly as much. I don't hear the rather have you come home in the pine box than disgraced. I think that we're at least softening a little bit there, Dan.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] I would also add, aren't we decreasing the amount of excommunications we're doing for sexual transgressions, even within the bounds of marriage? Like, isn't excommunication being ramped down?

Dan Wotherspoon [00:41:55] That's my general sense. I don't know the data, but I certainly have heard of, you know, it's not as automatic that you'd be excommunicated for sexual sins, especially if you're either a Melchizedek priesthood holder or somebody who had been married in the temple. So it's not 100%, you know, quite that automatic as it used to be. So those are. Those are hopeful to me. Go ahead.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:42:15] I just was going to interject and say we may not be hearing current or recent rhetoric about those. Those absurd things about being second only to murder, but all that stuff is still everywhere. It's still in the curriculum. It's still in young women's lessons. And so as long as we are wedded to the idea that if someone said it, if it was in 1920, if it was in 1890, if it was in 1950, if it was in 1970, it's still good, that kind of stuff's not gonna go away because, you know, for a lot of people, you know, Spencer W. Kimball said it in the miracle of forgiveness.

Joanna Brooks [00:42:52] That's right.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:42:52] It's in the lessons. My kids are hearing it right now in 2011. And so if. I mean, if there's someone who's a little bit, I would say smarter, they're looking at that lesson manual and they're thinking, geez, how many levels of crazy is that? Well, I'll just skip that.

Guest [00:43:07] Okay.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:43:08] But a lot of, yeah, that's what I do, actually. They wouldn't let me teach young women if, my gosh, if I were the last woman standing anyway. But a lot of people aren't comfortable doing that. If it's in there, they read it and they pass around the quotes. And if you have quote number three, you read it and it's there. So the idea is still very much in circulation, even if current things being said about it are more Sane or reasonable.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:43:35] It'll be interesting to see with each incarnation of the manuals because some of the ones that we're using now are 15 years old and whatnot. And they're just not getting around. I know the hassles of anytime they make a change, they have to have it translated in so many languages, so they tend to stick with it. And you're right, it's very slow. But again, it's more reason for those of us who are sane.

Joanna Brooks [00:43:55] I mean, it's really, you know, to

Dan Wotherspoon [00:43:57] do it, to speak up and to do our best to frame it positively, as I've heard that. But then you bring up other principles of the gospel or something that can maybe soften that and challenge us.

Joanna Brooks [00:44:08] We are an object lesson people and we need our next great metaphor for sexuality because the factories thing, the little factories thing, or the peanut butter and

John Dehlin [00:44:16] jelly sandwich that's been licked, the mangled

Joanna Brooks [00:44:20] Snickers bar, we are an object lesson people and we need our next great set of metaphors for human sexuality as a gift that's to be, you know, used wisely. And listeners, it's up to you. Go do it.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] Pearl of good price.

Joanna Brooks [00:44:37] Right home.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:44:37] Very cool. Before we leave the sit next to murder thing again. You know, I'm the former editor of Sunstone magazine and while I was the publisher, Michael Ash, who actually writes for Mormon Times now, he's a well known apologist for the church, wrote a terrific piece where he challenged the whole interpretation from Alma's talk to Corianton about being sexual sin to sit next to murder and reframed it in terms of because of your actions. The people didn't listen to us. And then he goes on to talk about, you know, anybody who, you know, harms a child. Better that a millstone be around his neck and drowned in the depths of the sea. Better this person never been born. And he really does a good job of taking that whole sin next to murder out of the sexual realm. And so, you know, if Mike Ash, you know, an apologist, somebody with a public voice, if he were to add more things publicly, if more of you would go to Sunstone, I'm afraid to jump off this call again on the Internet and tell you exactly what issue it was. But if you just go to sunstonemagazine.com or org, I don't even know what Sunstone's website is anymore, and type in Mike Ash under search, you'll see sin next to murder come up a terrific, terrific piece. So I just wanted to at least

Joanna Brooks [00:45:53] say that Applause for him.

Guest [00:45:56] Cool.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:45:56] And then one more little thing about movement and stigmazation and all that stuff. And Joanna, maybe this isn't fair to not warn you ahead of time, but I do see the church having moved in the past over a lot of things. We certainly have seen it on mixed race marriages and mixed religion marriages. And that's where I bring you in, because I know you're married to a fellow who's Jewish, right?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:46:20] Yep.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:46:21] And have you, you know, just that

Joanna Brooks [00:46:22] that was my solution to singles ward musical chairs.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:46:29] But, you know, whereas 25 years ago, you would gasp that your daughter or son is marrying out of the church, you know, you would gasp if you heard that they were cohabitating. I sense that we're destigmatizing those things as just other choices that people could make. You know, I don't know whether the church would ever, you know, say somebody who was sexually active as a single doesn't need to wait the year or whatever the prescribed time is before they could solemnize their marriage in the temple or whatever. I don't know if you do that, but I certainly see it in the congregation that somebody who had made a choice like Nicole might be, you know, destigmatized a little bit. Does that make any sense?

Joanna Brooks [00:47:07] Oh, yeah. I mean, but there's two perspectives here. There's the perspective of the congregation that has, you know, instructions to, you know, reactivate membership. I mean, the church is. A lot of people are lost in activity over these kinds of issues made to feel so guilty and so unwelcome about because of their choices. So the congregations welcome people back. Me, my. My ward is fabulous to my interfaith family. My ward loves us, welcomes us. My husband's a really fun guy, so that helps. But I wouldn't say, except for the Lakers lose, except when the Lakers lose.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:47:42] They need to grow.

Joanna Brooks [00:47:44] But I wouldn't say that that made my choice any easier on my nuclear, on my family of origin. I wouldn't say there was any. That was not easy. And I don't think that'd be easy. I mean, given the way people literally worship marriage in our church. I mean, it is an ordinance. This is the saving ordinance, basically. That's not going to lighten up.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:48:06] Well, I'd love to talk some more about this, and I think we could. And you guys are awesome. Just going and going and going. Let's make a plea to our listeners to have a robust conversation on the Mormon Matters blog about this. And if there's particular angles that you especially wish that we had hit and didn't like. For instance, one of the things that comes up in the Tribune article is that whole sex up to a certain point, singles, masturbation, terminal petting, different sort of things were brought up there and other people saying no. Anything that's along that line is too hot to handle. There's just lots of different angles about this, especially there. And so if readers or if listeners have any strong feelings about what cover, we're happy to pick this up again in a future Mormon Matters episode. Does that sound fair?

Joanna Brooks [00:48:54] Yep. We can talk about SSX all you want.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Terminal petty.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:48:58] I'm never gonna live that badly. You know what's probably gonna happen is you're gonna actually start me a stammer on that particular thing. It's gonna wound me so deeply.

Joanna Brooks [00:49:08] Okay, brother Dan, it's all right.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] I think Google is lighting up right now with terminal P heading right now. Google is on fire.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:49:16] That was a term I believe from Mary Beth Raines, who's a well known counselor.

Joanna Brooks [00:49:20] Terminal petting.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] That sounds fatal.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:49:24] It's like a. I am assuming from it again, I only read it too. I had never heard the term. I imagine this is an agreement ahead of time of what you can and can't touch or how long or something. Who knows? I didn't stutter, at least when I said that part. I didn't go to terminal petty.

Mormon Views on Immigration Policy and Reform

John Dehlin [00:49:43] Okay, next subject.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:49:46] We're in deep trouble, but let's.

Joanna Brooks [00:49:47] And now for a totally different subject.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:49:50] Well, let's try in 10 minutes to just quickly at least lay out some of the key tensions that are happening in immigration within the Mormon Church and certainly greater, greater society. The article that basically prompted this as a possible topic for us to explore was a report in the Salt Lake Tribune of a fellow who went down and issued a petition with the consulate to Mexico asking the president of Mexico to withhold missionary visas from Mormon missionaries coming into Mexico until the church were to take a stronger stand for what is called the Utah Compact, which is a statement signed by lots of religious leaders and groups and prominent citizens urging compassion and urging against the passing of Arizona time type enforcement laws here in Utah. So the fellow made the petition. Nobody really thinks that this is a petition that will work. There were some things talked about in there showing that at least one guy's arguing that Mormon missionaries who come back from Mexico are the greatest advocates for that country among the ones that you get here in North America. So it would be foolish of the President to do that. Others talked about just the good relationship between the Church and the countries and different things. Even though this doesn't stand much of a chance to be more than a symbolic gesture, it does raise the issue of immigration and the difficulty. And so I can go ahead and start laying out some of the doctrinal sort of polls that different people are arguing with. But if any of you want to just jump in and sort of give your expression of what you see are the key tensions between, you know, stay out of the political realm, whether, you know, the state enforcement or the federal enforcement. But maybe what strikes you as Christians? What strikes you as religious people? What are the doctrinal core principles and values that sort of are at play in this and that you see, you know, causing the rift? Because it's clear that Mormons are finding support within the gospel on both sides of this issue. So anybody want to jump in?

John Dehlin [00:52:08] First, I want to ask a question to Joanna and. Or Heather. Heather, are you into this issue or is this something you're kind of getting to know? Do you have a lot of strong feelings and opinions about it?

Heather Olson-Beal [00:52:20] I have. Well, I'm not an expert on it, but I definitely have strong feelings.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] Okay, so I'm gonna ask Joanna, then Heather, this sort of. I'll post this straw man. Why should.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:52:30] Both of you are in border states. We have Texas for Heather and Southern California for Joanna. So you're. It's probably all around you, even maybe perhaps more than you. Utah.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:52:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] But I'm just curious. Why shouldn't the law be enforced? Why shouldn't people who are here illegally be sent back? Why should we offer public services for people who aren't here legally and lawfully? And why, you know, why should, why should we be. Why should we be concerned about when we stop someone for traffic violation or for whatever to make sure that they're here legitimately? Like, you know, there's a. There's the 15 years ago me that basically says this is reasonable. This is law abiding, constitution abiding common sense policy. That, that makes sense. All these loopholes and all this flexibility to businessmen just seems, you know, like the rule of law is blurry and fading away on a very important issue. So, Joanna, help me out.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:53:42] Yeah.

Joanna Brooks [00:53:47] Think about the global flows of capital. They are massive. You know, capital in the form of money, in the form of human resources flows from place to place outside the law, many, in many circumstances. And you know, what we've witnessed in the southwestern United States, which, remember, was, until 1847, Mexico is a flow of human capital across an invented national border from which the United States and almost all of its people have profited quite handsomely. And to, you know, of course, nations, I mean, the rule of law says nations have the right to make laws and enforce their borders. But it's fairly opportunistic to penalize human beings who are not driving those flows of capital. They're just human beings caught up in them. You know, people whose own home countries can't support them because of economic policies and they had no hand in making that have to do oftentimes with centuries of exploitive colonial economic relationships. And so now you're going to say that, you know, the toddler down the block can't get health care because he happened to be born here of immigrant parents who came illegally because of an economic crisis they had no hand in making. So there's just a humanitarian argument. There was a really watershed moment in the immigration debate in Arizona last year. I thought, for me, for LDS watchers of the debate debate, when Latino Mormons spoke up in the newspaper and really criticized Russell Pierce, who is the also LDS author of SB 1070, the very controversial Arizona immigration bill that effectively criminalizes people of color on the streets of Arizona, makes them. Well, that's arguable, but that's how it's viewed and experienced in communities of color. And Latino folks spoke up and said, this is unchristlike. These are political questions that are being levied against, you know, human beings and opportunistically being levied against human beings to criminalize and deny human beings basic services. This is, you know, contrary to basic Christian principles of brotherhood. And of course, the other side is articles of faith. We believe in honoring a poly sustaining the law. So, you know, it's justice versus mercy. It's a basic religious conundrum.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:56:21] Absolutely it is. John. Did she at least take on your question about. Were you asking more about enforcement, John, or just were you basically calling for somebody to articulate. Yeah, there is something legitimate to the justice side. You know, you should honor, obey, sustain the law.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] Yeah, I was putting you shouldn't lie

Dan Wotherspoon [00:56:39] in order to get government services. You don't steal in order to get Social Security numbers. You don't covet somebody else's homes or jobs or country. You know, those kinds of things are definitely sort of in the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Totally. Yeah.

Joanna Brooks [00:56:54] And then you think about the people who are writing the checks, you know, who are exploiting human labor and are they held to the same standards as impoverished people for whom Jesus Christ expressed a preferential love? I mean, who is to be held up to the law more the people who exploit the poor or the poor.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] You sound like a socialist, Joanna.

Heather Olson-Beal [00:57:14] Yeah, bring it on. I just want to say also, though, that there are laws that are unjust. And so, you know, in those cases, you know, I did my dissertation research on school desegregation in Louisiana. People broke laws. I mean, people have broken laws. And that's sort of what it's taken at some point to get the laws changed. Just because something is a law doesn't mean that necessarily, you know, for sure that it was divinely sanctioned or that it's based on anything that we would consider to be Christian. So I think some of the immigration laws are very unjust, and so they need to be changed. I don't think that there's any divine stance of approval.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:58:00] Even Mormons have lived the higher law. Often that was the argument for polygamy and various other practices that were illegal at one time, that there are higher purposes to consider. Certainly we have comments along those lines in Martin Luther King's Letter from Birmingham Jail. But there, where you have somebody taking a stance like that saying, you know, we're going to act according to a higher law, but yet we still submit ourselves to the law of the land. In other words, you know, our civil disobedience stand is to. Is to raise the consciousness, to bring it into the light of the day, like we were talking about with incest and things like that. When you do that, then healing can begin. But we have to be willing if we're going to make a principled stand for a higher law to still submit. So I don't know if there was a way to really publicize the times when families are torn apart, you know, by an enforcement like this. You know, some. I know there was a case here in Utah of a young man who was raised here. You know, he certainly would have been somebody that would have been, you know, granted the pathway to citizenship through the DREAM act, if it had passed. But he's on a bus to go to a Bible school or something in the Deep South. Whole desire was to be a youth minister and things like that. He gets almost there. They pull over the bus, happen to ask people for their papers, and, you know, this supposedly amazing, you know, best student in the school, the finest example of a young man. He's been getting at least some publicity here in Utah for being deported, and now he'll be denied any chance to apply for citizenship. For 10 years he's pulled apart from his family and things like that. So I'm just wondering if that's Going to be what it almost takes is this focus on, on you have torn apart families and somehow you have that human face on it.

Joanna Brooks [00:59:46] And that's what we're hearing in Latino LDS communities is how, you know, and how can a church that teaches so much about the importance of families, you know, countenance legislation that's designed to criminalize poor people who are at the mercy of international flows of capital, basically who are just trying to hold families together, support families in very difficult times. So, you know, that's what we hear.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:00:10] Well, let's lay the facts out. There is this Utah compact which is calling against these bills the church issued us. The church did not sign it, but it issued a very strong statement immediately after this event in which others did sign it, calling for compassion, calling for everyone to put a human face on it, to meet undocumented workers, to meet their families. The church is well on the record for still baptizing undocumented people, allowing them to serve missions. They even have, you know, sort of underground railroads of sorts that sort of allow these undocumented missionaries to get across borders to go to their mission areas. They allow them to receive the priesthood, they allow them to get temple recommends. And yet the church won't make the stand, you know, for this Utah camp act. But all their, all of their recipes. Marlon Jensen, two years ago, in addressing, you know, calling for compassion and things like that, but it seems like the justice oriented people, the people who are wanting to blame economic woes upon, you know, the immigrants, we have a whole history of doing that, you know, throughout our nation and things like that, they seem to be winning the war. Even though it does seem like the church is on, on the side that you're calling for, Heather. They're just not. They just haven't done a Prop 8 type stance and asked everybody to really activate on it.

Joanna Brooks [01:01:31] Well, and welcome to the 21st century for the church. I mean, here we have a church that's now a global church, that has a strong ethnic core, that's extremely nationalist, right in terms of Book of Mormon, Belt Mormon being very patriotic and conservative and identify with the rule of law from the vantage point of the United States. But this is a global church. It can't be nationalist anymore. And 90% I've heard of the growth in the US is now in Latino communities. And those communities are beginning to flex a little muscle, which they should, saying, you know, you can't call his brother on Sunday and profile us and put our livelihoods in jeopardy on Monday. That's just not okay.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] Are you saying 90% of the growth in the US LDS Church is from.

Joanna Brooks [01:02:19] That's a number I've heard, yeah. I mean it's, and it is a tale of two churches. I mean, you know, I don't know how they handle it in Texas, Heather, but you know, we have Spanish speaking wards here. We're not necessarily an integrated church. There are wonderful acts of love and kindness and brotherhood, you know, all the time. I see even among very conservative LDS people, you know, have lots of Latino folks, immigrant folks in their lives, want them to do well on an individual basis. But this animus at the level of policy is just crazy making.

Heather Olson-Beal [01:02:51] Yeah, my other issue, reading, reading the, reading those statements is just, I have such a hard time reading official statements by church leaders calling on the importance of this is about families and that that statement said public officials should create and administer laws that reflect the best of our aspirations as a just and caring society. I mean, that sounds great, but when I contrast that with the church's stance on same sex marriage, my head just can't, can't contain it. So. Yeah, so are we, are we wanting to make public policies that support families or not? Because that just seems like those are totally in contrast to each other. And then one of those articles even said, you know, people need to get to know, you know, like Dan, like you were talking about the human face. Get to know, you know, an undocumented worker and you'll see that it's not the boogeyman, you know, and when I was reading that, I was thinking, yeah, get to know a gay or a lesbian person who wants to have legal recognition for their marriage and hopefully you will also be softened. I don't see how you could, how your stance, you know, if you were strongly against that couldn't be. But to me it seems like the same, the same argument could be applied. And so it's very disappointing to me to see that the church would go to such ends, you know, to continue to prohibit same sex marriage and then come out with these statements about how, you know, we want to properly balance love for neighbors and, you know, supporting families.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:04:26] Yeah, it was love for neighbors, family cohesion, observable, just and enforceable laws. And under that, certainly the, maybe a little bit towards John's earliest question was, you know, you're basically asking police to redirect their efforts in some cases from criminal law enforcement to civil law enforcement. And so that's one of the issues about enforceability that the church was doing. And then the last one, the church was doing it's gonna hurt our reputation as a welcoming state.

Joanna Brooks [01:04:56] And we should note that Utah, I mean, Steven Sandstrom is the one who has the Russell Pierce style bill that's making its way through the Utah legislature. And on Friday, just this last Friday, it passed, passed in the House overwhelmingly. And that's a bill that will give power to local law enforcement to, you know, it says, check the immigration status of those they suspect may be illegal in the United States. Well, what's that? That's profiling, you know. Right. That's profiling. And it absolutely changes the way not just Latino people, but all people of color inhabit that state.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] You know, I struggle a little bit bit trying to figure the church out on this too. Like Dan, you said the church issued a very strong statement. First of all, I wonder if some of the people who are more on the side of the immigrants would have received that statement as very strong or if they would have received it as something short of very strong. But in addition, sometimes naively, or maybe not so naively, one might have the impression that if the LDS Church wanted to persuade things such that a certain piece of legislation would either succeed or fail, that they might have the means to do that in the state of Utah. And so you kind of wonder whether is this the church being just trying to speak out of both sides of its mouth? Is this the church just being opportunistic? Is this the church, you know, trying to put, you use Marlon Jensen yet again to be the charismatic, friendly, warm teddy bear of a grandpa, when in reality it's not really using its prophetic mantle and its power and influence. There's a question.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:06:54] Yeah, there's a question that comes up in that whole little litany that you just did is I'm wondering if this is a case, if this is a case where unanimity is required among the top, you know, quorums, and there might just be only one or two holdouts who are not letting the church take the whole state, the whole thing to where they would really flex their muscle the way they did in a Prop 8. So we don't really know what's going on because of this sort of, you know, inability to act without unanimity on something big. So I don't know if that's at least a speculative possibility.

Joanna Brooks [01:07:27] This is just the beginning of many complicated questions the church is going to face as it just becomes global, more and more global. And that's what I think made Prop 8 so startling was it was such a, first of all, a local, a heavily locally invested flexing of power, very calculated, you know, one state without a really good long term plan. And, you know, the church can't afford to do that as its reach becomes more global, as it embraces more diverse populations who by virtue of their diverse national origins, are going to have different points of view on global issues. And so these kind of conflicts and these kind of trying to stake a middle path that acknowledges the rights, you know, the dignity of human beings, their value in the sight of God, is something the church is going to have to do more and more.

John Dehlin [01:08:26] There's no easy answers, though.

Joanna Brooks [01:08:30] There's not.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:08:30] Yeah. So we basically, for our listeners, as we come to a close here, we have again framed it, at least to some degree, and we invite you to help initiate and continue a vigorous conversation on the Mormon Matters blog. And again, I'll also promise, as the sort of leader of this at least, Mormon Matters 2.0 launch, to pay very close attention to those of you who especially suggest maybe another segment down the road that we can continue this discussion. Volunteer yourself to perhaps be a panelist if you feel strongly. But again, we'll certainly listen to you and hope that you will contribute. So anybody else have something they just need to say on either of these issues before we close?

Closing Thoughts and Listener Appeal

Joanna Brooks [01:09:24] Hey, that was good. Thank you to everyone for listening.

Heather Olson-Beal [01:09:31] Yes, thanks.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:09:32] Yes, thank you. We hope that you'll enjoy this new incarnation of what was once a very popular podcast. We hope to bring it back to. To its former glory and even exceed it if possible. So we're grateful to everybody who listens and contributes money and time and effort and who talks it up and who blogs about these different things and whatnot. So we really appreciate that, John.

Joanna Brooks [01:09:55] It's fun to both visit with contemporary John and Time machine John of 15 years ago.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:10:02] That is true. That is true.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] Well, we don't have a true conservative on the panel right now, and so I'm trying to. Trying to sort of play that role.

Joanna Brooks [01:10:09] We need one.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:10:09] Okay, good. Yeah, that's a good way to do it. My old self versus my new.

Heather Olson-Beal [01:10:14] I have an old self, too.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] I know your old self, Joanna. And you know, you were no Judd Kennedy.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:10:23] Oh, man. Anyway, well, I am at least going to work very hard to bring Joanna and Heather and John back for future ones. We'll try to fold into some new people and get a really great lineup of regular panelists going. But I'm so grateful to you guys. John, you started this one with a. I know this is actually going to be released as a dual Mormon stories, Mormon matter thing. So why don't you just go ahead and bring us home with whatever message you'd want to say to the Mormon Stories listeners. And any parting thoughts for this podcast?

John Dehlin [01:10:54] I just say that Heather, Joanna, and Dan are three of my favorite people on the planet, and I mean that literally. And so I'm just very, very grateful that you guys would help us kick this thing off. And it's just an honor to be on the same Skype call with the three of you. And I mean that sincerely. In addition, you know, with the Open Stories foundation, which we named Open Stories because my lawyers told me that I could get sued if I call it the Mormon Stories foundation, you know, what we're really trying to do is see if we can nurture kind of a National Public Radio mentality or PBS type mentality within the broader culture of Mormonism. And so this represents sort of our second podcast, even though it's a relaunching where we hope to do a number of things in the future to help, you know, have thoughtful, constructive discussions about all things Mormon. But to make this work, it sort of is going to depend on listener support. Because. Because it's great to rely on volunteers, but the truth is, oftentimes when sort of the backbone of any web initiative relies only on volunteers, it's very easy for things to peter out when people's lives get really hectic. And just like National Public Radio and PBS have to pay the bills, what we're going to do is we're going to set up a unique PayPal button on the Mormon Matters website, and this money is going to go almost exclusively to help support, you know, Dan's efforts in getting this podcast up and off the ground and releasing weekly episodes of Good Mormon Thought and Dialogue. And so if any of you guys, you know, want to encourage this and want to see this thing take off and even want to join in on this vision of sort of wrestling Mormon discourse away from a purely correlated perspective or a purely anti Mormon perspective, and want to see it wrestled more into a paradigm of thoughtful, constructive dialogue, please, if you can vote with your vote with your support and financial contribution. All your contributions to the Open Stories foundation are tax deductible, which means that they're as tax beneficial as tithing is to those of you who are interested in supporting and, you know, we'll provide you with end of year statements so that you can write this off on your tax returns, and we'll make sure that all of our financial dealings in the foundation are completely transparent and fully disclosed with our tax filings and everything so that there's no question as to how much money was received and, and you know where the money went. So that's my appeal to say, if you like this, if you want more of it, please support it.

Joanna Brooks [01:13:50] Appreciate you.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:13:53] Appreciate you guys.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Love you.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:13:56] Thanks, Sister Fonda. All right, good night, everybody.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] Check us out@mormonmatters.org

Dan Wotherspoon [01:14:07] thank you for joining us today on Mormon Matters Podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonmatters.org to keep this podcast alive or to join our support community, please consider a tax deductible donation today@mormonmatters.org Music for this podcast was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. The Mormon Matters logo was generously provided by studiocase.com thank you for listening.

Guest [01:14:35] You this journey may appear it shall be as your day. T is better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to this kiss and joy your hearts will swell all is well, all is well. Do this and joy your hearts will swell all is well, all is well all is well all is well all is well, all is well. Sam.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.