Introduction and Guest Backgrounds

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 143

Guest [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] This is Mormon Stories. I'm John Dehlin. Today I'm very excited to bring to you an illustrious panel of people whom I very much admire to discuss the topic of raising children in the LDS Church when the parents are either semi believers or unorthodox or even in some cases, non believers. That's the topic for today. And I have with us three very special guests. My first guest is Lee White. Hello, Lee.

Lee White [00:00:50] Good evening.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] I also have with us Heather Olson Beale. Hi, Heather.

Lori Gallagher [00:00:55] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] And my good friend Lori Gallagher. Hi, Laurie.

Lori Gallagher [00:01:00] Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] All right, so to begin with, I think it makes sense for each of us to kind of briefly explain where we're coming from. I think, you know, my audience pretty much knows where I'm coming from, but I'll just state it for the record. I consider myself to be a believer, but in a very general sense, kind of a Unitarian Universalist and kind of a pragmatist when it comes to Mormon doctrine and theology and stuff. But I'm definitely active in church. I believe that inspiration happens in the church. And my wife and I are definitely raising our children in the church. So that's where I come from. And why don't we just go around the horn, maybe starting with Heather, Maybe each of you could just talk a little bit about, you know, yourself, just give us a quick high level bio of who you are and what you do and then talk about kind of what paradigm or framework you're coming from. So Heather, you go first, then Laurie, then Lee.

Heather Olson Beale [00:01:58] Okay. I'm from Texas. I'm an education professor. I'm very Mormon. I was born and raised in the church, and everyone in my family and in my husband's family is a member of the church. I basically structured my life around

John Dehlin [00:02:19] being

Heather Olson Beale [00:02:20] a Mormon, and I'm very grateful for lots of experiences that I've had in the church. That said, I sort of consider myself a doubter or a questioner at least, where I feel like I definitely have lots more questions than I have answers. And my kids, as my kids have gotten older, they are 7, 10, and 13, they apparently are questioners also, and they've asked me lots of questions that have caused me to, that have just given me pause. And my husband is in a similar position. Is that good enough?

John Dehlin [00:02:52] That's awesome. Okay, welcome, Heather.

Heather Olson Beale [00:02:55] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] All right, Laurie, you're next.

Lori Gallagher [00:02:57] All right. I'm not a big fan of labels. But they're effective. So I would say that I'm a multigenerational Mormon, so I use the term Mormon. I feel very Mormon, but I'm a non believer. I'm also an active yogi and I'm really rich in my own spiritual pursuits. I have three kids, a 5 year old, a 10 year old and a 14 year old. And I have a husband who is a believer who loves the church and

John Dehlin [00:03:34] wants to stay and tell us what a yogi is.

Lori Gallagher [00:03:37] For those who don't know, yoga practitioner. I am a yoga teacher and I have a yoga studio and that's what I do from sun up to sundown. Yoga.

Guest [00:03:47] Wonderful.

Lee White [00:03:48] What form of yoga? Namaste.

Lori Gallagher [00:03:51] I studied Ashtanga, but I teach Vinyasa flow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] And if any of you know what that means, I'll give you an ice cream.

Lee White [00:04:01] You owe me an ice cream. John.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Okay. All right, Lee. Okay, Lee. Well, thanks, Laurie. Welcome. And Lee, you're next.

Lee White [00:04:11] Lee White. I live in Seattle, Washington with my wife. We have four children, the youngest of which is 22 years of age and he's a senior at Western Washington University, 90 miles north of here. I am a convert to the church, but my family has been involved in the church since the 1840s. So I was born in the Covenant but really never understood it. Was not involved in the church in my teen years and converted to it personally and spiritually when I was in my late teens and have been active in the church ever since, but in a very unorthodox and non traditional way. I teach the gospel doctrine class for adults in my ward, but I'm frequently found quoting from Zen scripture and Judaism, from the Torah and the Talmud and occasionally from Friedrich Nietzsche.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Awesome.

Lee White [00:05:22] Which gets me in trouble.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] Right.

Lee White [00:05:25] And I do find that the church has been a tremendous tool for enhancing spiritual growth and development with me, with my family. And that having been said, there have also been times when it has been a hindrance.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] And Lee, I hope I'm not asking you to repeat yourself, but did you tell us how many of your kids have remained active versus not?

Lee White [00:05:55] My three daughters are active in the church to varying degrees and as adults.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Right, as adults.

Lee White [00:06:03] And my son, my 22 year old son has not been involved in the church and does not define himself as a Latter Day Saint currently.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] And I think it's important, Lee, just to say for those of us whose kids are in the primary years or in the teen years, for those of us who would ask ourselves, can you be sort of a non traditional, unorthodox Mormon and raise kids in a healthy, constructive way where they can achieve adulthood and maybe even remain in the church, but still have that be a positive and even a constructive experience. You know, you're kind of here saying, so far, for you, it's been a good decision. Is that right?

Lee White [00:06:42] It's been a great decision. I have rich conversations with all four of my kids and now my grandkids on a fairly regular basis about making doubt and questioning what goes on with church traditions and even doctrines a vibrant part of faith. And those are exciting conversations. In fact, I spend more time talking with my son about how to deflect and really raise questions with active Latter Day Saints who are mainstream, who are questioning why he's not involved, why he didn't go on a mission, why he's not getting engaged now, and how they can help him get to that. And I talk to him a lot about how to reflect his own core values, his spiritual path and his beliefs in conversations with them through asking powerful questions.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Excellent. Well, we'll definitely get to that as we get to the later parts of the sort of chronology of an upbringing of a child. So, Lee, welcome to Mormon Stories. And again, thank you all for. For joining in. I guess I'd like to begin with a question that may catch some of you guys off guard because we didn't talk about talking about this. But the first question that I think may occur to some people, and it would just be some, is this question of if you are not a literal believer, if you're a parent and you're a semi believer or, you know, struggling or even a non believer, would the church itself even want you to stay in the church or to raise your kids within it? You know, some people might go, well, before I even consider doing it, I need to make sure that I'm wanted here. And I don't know if any of you have any personal experience with higher levels of church leadership where you could speak to that, but I do have a story or two, but let me throw it out to you guys first. Do any of you guys have a thought or a comment on that, whether the church would even want us to be doing what we're doing? I'll start with Heather.

Teaching Tolerance and Inclusion in the Church

Heather Olson Beale [00:08:58] I don't have any experience with higher, higher leadership except for my dad. My dad has had several callings, and so I can't say, well, I heard this, or I was in this conversation, but I would have to say, yes, they would want us. Otherwise, I don't think I could continue in this path. I mean, I just have to think that there would be some recognition that, you know, Heavenly Father loves all of us, regardless of where we are sort of on that belief spectrum. I don't know, Perhaps that's naive, but that's the way I feel.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] That's very good. Laurie, do you have a thought on that question?

Lori Gallagher [00:09:45] You know, that's something that I should probably feel the most because I noticed before my big disaffection that I just started to feel like a non believer amidst everybody that I grew up with, who, you know, I started to feel like the non member of the group. And I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter where I'm wanted. It doesn't really change the fact that I am Mormon and that I need to decide where I want to be. So that's my path, is listening to my own inner voice and not listening to other people. And I met with my bishop and I didn't give him really any chance to discuss that with me. Clear boundaries on that one.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Good. All right, Lee, before I launch into a story, do you have any additional thoughts you want to add?

Lee White [00:10:43] Yeah, I think your question is a great one. And it really gets to the heart of how well do Latter Day Saints teach tolerance and inclusion beyond ethnic, cultural, and kind of national orientation, and beyond that diversity of thought, diversity of action, and diversity of belief? I've experienced the extremes, not much in the middle. Examples of that. Marilyn, my wife and I are very good friends with Jack and Linda Newell. When Linda Newell was writing her book Mormon Enigma on the life of Emma Smith, my wife was the individual largely involved in typing the manuscript and even offering some editorial comment about how the book laid out and the church put a sanction on Linda. Speaking in Fireside's wards throughout the church, they would have preferred that the book go away. I went to my bishop and said, because I was in the bishopric at the time, and said, this woman has written this terrific book about the prophet's wife. Can we have her come and speak in church? He had no question about it. And when I informed him that there had been a sanction against Linda speaking in church congregations about this, he said, well, I didn't get the memo. Therefore, if you tell me it's inspiring, then I'll believe you because I trust you, and we'll go ahead and go with it. So that's a pretty good, good indicator of my experience with the extremes of tolerance and inclusiveness in the church. And have I ever been ostracized or told that I'm not welcome in the church? Yeah, I have. But more for my political affiliation recently than anything else. My organization does a lot of advocacy work on health care reform. I don't need to say anything else.

Whether Semi-Believers Are Welcome

John Dehlin [00:12:54] All right, okay, great. Well, I'll just throw this in. And I have to be careful how I say this, but listeners will know that I spent a lot of time trying to help people work through this and see people struggle a lot. So through some channels, and I have to be vague about everything that I'm saying by the request of the people that are involved, but through some channels, I've been able to have, let's just say, some conversations with people whom you would know their name, who are, you know, let's just say at leadership levels, maybe even high leadership levels in the church. And I've asked this question point blank. Are we wanted? Are semi believers or non literal believers wanted or not wanted? And the very explicit and clear sense that I've been given is that the answer is absolutely yes. And I was even explicit in saying, what if we don't necessarily believe in a literal book of historical Book of Mormon? What if we question the anthropomorphic God? What if we struggle with the littleness of the atonement? And there was no flinching involved, There was no chastisement or rebukement involved. It was unequivocally, we want you in the church. And so I guess, and it came at such a high level that I'm comfortable saying that, you know, for those who feel like they want to try and make it work, I feel enough confidence telling you that at least among some of those top leaders, there is an absolute hope that people will consider it. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone's going to make that choice or that even I'm advocating that everyone makes that choice. But I did want to lay that out there as something that people should know. And I'm sorry I can't be more explicit, but, you know, I have to respect the people who've asked me to kind of be tactful. So I will. So let's go on to one of the first and most interesting questions that I think we're going to know the answer to very quickly. Laurie, I think it was you who asked the question very early on. Let's say that we're not believing or struggling or unorthodox. There is the option of just faking it, of just pretending throughout your life that you do believe everything and you do everything, and ignoring whatever doubts or questions or problems you have. Now, Laurie, you Didn't seem hip on that idea. So why don't you be the first to kind of talk about that?

Lori Gallagher [00:15:37] Well, it goes right into what you were just saying. There's this dichotomy between knowing that people want you there, but why, you know, do they want to save you? Do they believe you can't get to heaven without this gospel? But they're not necessarily welcoming of you, asking questions about Joseph's wives and Relief Society, you know, so it puts you as a questioner or somebody struggling or a non believer in an awkward position when you attend. So personally, there's no question for me. There's no way for me to fake it. There's no way for me to fake it. And as far as we're talking about children, I believe that kids know when you're faking it. They know when you're faking it. And it's much healthier, in my opinion, to just say I don't know than to fake it. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Sure. Lee, I'll let you take a stab at that question next.

Lee White [00:16:44] I have trouble with the notion that I can remain in the church and remain involved even though I don't believe. And I'm doing it because there are good values taught and I want to do it for my kids. When your kids grow up and find out that you were engaged in that kind of vague response to your spiritual beliefs and your religious beliefs, I think you're in trouble. I think you're inviting some difficulty. I think there's richness in engaging kids in conversations about the validity and almost the necessity of questioning things. I've talked to my kids a whole lot about the foundations of the church. Really, the church got started with a 14 year old kid questioning, doubting his religious framework and seeking help. Whether you believe in the literalness of Joseph Smith's experience or not, you recognize that this young kids started out in a place of questioning and are we not like him in a sense that we should be questioning virtually every action of our life and every principle that the church puts out there and finding out how can we assimilate this or challenge it from our spiritual experience as well as our religious experience? I make that distinction between spiritual and religious intentionally.

Lori Gallagher [00:18:18] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] And I want to ask Heather the next question, but I just want to highlight what you just said. Lee. There are a lot of people who, once they start digging into the history, get frustrated with Joseph Smith and some of the things that he did that are discouraging to some. But I remember something that Joanna Brooks said which Also reflects what you just said, which is that what a glorious legacy we have in just that one founding story of a boy who questions and seeks and finds truth. And the basic teaching that each of us. And this is a Mormon teaching, it's a very Mormon teaching that each one of us has the responsibility to seek spiritually confirmations for what we believe and know to be right. So that I think that is a legacy of Mormonism that we can proudly sort of stand up and admire, regardless of where we are on the spectrum. Although I know that mixed messages are sometimes given. But, Heather, why don't you jump in and add anything that you feel comfortable adding to what's been said.

Heather Olson Beale [00:19:25] So we're talking about whether you can fake it or whether we would want

John Dehlin [00:19:28] to, either to the ward or to your children.

Heather Olson Beale [00:19:30] Yeah, well, when I hear that, I. The first thing I thought was, well, what does it mean to fake it? Because I feel like, I mean, are we talking about behaviors or are we talking about discussions about belief? Because I suppose that my kids could look at me, as Lee said, and maybe look. I mean, I've wondered this once I get older and think, well, if my mom didn't know for sure that all these things are true, why did we go to church every Sunday? Why did we obey the word of wisdom? Why did we pay tithing? Why did we, you know, the list, Da da da da, da, da da. And then possibly they could think that I was faking it if they somehow find out later that I wasn't sure. But I feel like then to counter that, I try to just tell them lots of times, I don't know. So, you know, speaking of Joseph Smith, for instance, my daughter read all the Work in the Glory books when she was about 10.

Guest [00:20:31] Wow.

Heather Olson Beale [00:20:32] Yes. And so this was three or four years ago. She completely freaked out when she read some of the stuff in there about polygamy and came to me. And that is something that probably five and for sure, 10 and 15 and 20 years ago was very difficult for me. It's not really anymore. But she came to me and was just incensed and actually said, joseph Smith is an idiot. And I said, well, you know, and she was asking me, what do you think? And I thought, well, this is sort of a defining moment because she's asking me a question that for many years has been. Has sort of haunted me. And I just said, I don't know. I can't explain why some of those things happened. We weren't there. We didn't see it. This has been something that's always really hard for me. And I just said, I don't know. And I have to sort of hope that my kids accept that answer or that they appreciate my honesty and not think my mom was faking it.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] Right. That's really good. Well, I'll just add my two cents. And that's that one thing that's very, very common when someone starts down the disillusionment or disaffection process or just say stage four, Fowler, whatever you want to call it, where they're in that dark night of the soul, but they haven't quite told everybody yet, pressure starts to build inside of them and there's this dynamic where they're going to church and trying to be quiet or their wife's teaching family home evening and they're trying to be quiet. And the pressure begins to mount and build inside of them in very, very powerful ways to the point where just a sacrament meeting, a testimony given or something said by a spouse can lead to an explosion of frustration because the person who's struggling has been trying to keep so much in and hide things. And I'll just say that I have not seen the decision to sort of hide and to fake things be very sustainable. I've seen it on the flip side lead to anger and rage and unhealthy sort of extreme reactions. And so I come down on the side of saying that over time there are people in the short to medium term who for practical reasons or personal reasons, just have to hide and fake it. And the church is full of people like that. Not full of, but just say there are thousands or more of people like that in the church who do fake it. But I haven't seen that be successful in the medium and the long run. I see it as potentially very counterproductive. And the last thing I'll just add is the last thing I could ever want or feel good about is having my kid go through, you know, having me taught my kid to be a true believing, non doubting, orthodox, traditional Mormon, have them go through their own crisis of faith and then turn to me and say, you knew this all along and you didn't tell me and have them made decisions without a bit of a more full knowledge that I could have imparted to them early. Now I'm not saying spoil the myth and poison the well from the start, I'm not saying that. But I do. I have felt like I needed to be as honest as is healthy and constructive for my children and for my spouse and for my family. So that's Where I come down and John, John, Laurie, then Lee, I just

Navigating Doubt While Staying Engaged

Lori Gallagher [00:24:08] wanted to add that there's a difference between faking it and keeping something personal while you're processing it. There's a lot of talk about, you know, this New Order Mormon lifestyle of faking it and how it doesn't work. But when you're first trying to figure things out, you don't know who you can share with. And that can also be an authentic place to be of quiet processing.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] That's very good. And you don't want to burn bridges before you kind of know where you're going to stand.

Lori Gallagher [00:24:40] Sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:42] Lee, what were you going to add

Lee White [00:24:43] as one whose kids are largely lunched? What I've experienced with my kids is more this. They come to me in their late teen or early adulthood years and they say, dad, why didn't you ever really explain this problem with polygamy that the church has experienced for a couple of hundred years now? And didn't you ever doubt it? And I engaged them in a terrific conversation and you know, what they were typically putting in front of me is I have this conversation with this person I love, this very rational human being who has disaffected from the church because they have come to discover that the church has portrayed a history and an experience that isn't quite represented by fact. And so it creates cognitive dissonance. Dad, help me understand this. And instead of saying no, put it aside. I say, yes, I've experienced that. And let me get you other resources that might help you. And here's the Bachmann thesis. Why don't you read this and then let's have a conversation about it. And here's an article by Henry Eyring that talks about his doubts after having struggled with the issue of polygamy when he was a young man that we also want to have a conversation about. So let's stay in the question and deal with the ambiguity of this in the way that we deal with so many other things that are non religious and non spiritual, things that might relate to our competencies about how we do our jobs or educate ourselves or even experience our relationships with one another. There are no black and whites in so many things that we look at and say, yes, it's obvious that this is black and white. There is no gray.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Can I make a comment?

Heather Olson Beale [00:26:36] Yeah, but Lee, in speaking to what you just said, would you say, I feel like that. I mean, what you're saying I think is great, but I don't feel like that's really encouraged by the church. I mean, I just opened our Friend magazine last week for April or March, I can't remember, and there was a whole page on it, and the very top of the page, it said, we do not doubt. And I felt sad reading that because I. And like you said, or John, I guess, what a great story that we have about Joseph Smith who did doubt. And so somehow it does seem like that is really being discouraged. We do not doubt.

Lee White [00:27:16] One of the huge contradictions, isn't it?

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:18] What?

Lee White [00:27:19] It's one of the huge contradictions I think we face in the church, that once you enter the realm of mainstream Mormonism, it's like somebody expects you to turn off the switch and no longer question doubt. I've had bad experiences with that and I've had good experiences with it, but largely when I can put my concern and my constructive questions and beliefs in front of someone who is trying to recognize that this community of faith is much broader than we might have originally thought, it engages and invites more open, honest, authentic conversation than, Nope, you're expressing doubt. And we do not doubt as a people. Well, I think in theory we're in a tough place with that, but I think in practice, more often than not, my experience with people is if you have trust and you come at that from a place of love, there is an invitation for openness. And at the very worst, you end up saying, we're going to agree to disagree about this.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Heather, the only thing I'll add, just for people who are seeking a ray of hope, I guess, you know, if you want to find. I think we're all in agreement that doubt is discouraged and stigmatized within the church, but I don't think that that's the only story. I think we all know 10 or 20 quotes from Brigham Young or Joseph Smith or whoever that say, doubt, question everything, don't believe a thing I say. Make sure you believe it. I mean, I do think that we can reach back into our heritage and legacy and. And see that there have been moments and quotes and comments. You can just take Hubie Brown alone as a member of the First Presidency, or even David O. McKay and see that eschewing doubt is not the only message that's been conveyed within Mormonism, and we can bring that forward. But also, I would just add that the pendulum swings. And if I had to assess where the doubt pendulum is right now, it's swinging towards a realization that skepticism is raging and is going to be raging. And if you look at either the Joseph Smith Papers Project or the Deseret book selling rough Stone rolling or the Mountain Meadows Massacre book that the Church produced, or the tendency of the church now to address the really tough articles in the Ensign and in the Church News. I think the Church is trying to manage this sort of in swell of doubting. And even if you look at the Mormon Times, which is published online and it's also published via the Deseret News, but every week on Thursday in the Mormon Times, you have the Church trying to tackle some of these tough questions. Now, admittedly, it's often an apologetic response, but I think for me at least, I think the momentum is moving towards a realization that skepticism and curiosity and doubt are a reality that the brethren are just going to have to figure out how to come to grips with. Can any of you guys buy that or you guys think I'm full of cred?

Heather Olson Beale [00:30:39] I think that's very hopeful. I do. I mean, and I certainly would not think that the Friend magazine would be an appropriate venue to really tease that out. I mean, that seems like something much better done, you know, just in a family setting or one on one. But just to see that just. I thought it was sad because it does seem like it's. It's totally contrary to what the founding story of our church is. I mean, we'll have the primary kids saying, you know, my kids, when they were three and four could tell the story about how Joseph Smith was reading, you know, in James and. And he didn't know how he felt, so he went to pray. And so it is a bit disturbing to me to have that story and to see something that's the most current thing there is, saying we do not doubt. And I just on Sunday got up and bore my testimony, a testimony of nothingness almost, but because I actually said I'm a doubter. And so I'm not here to testify of the truthfulness of anything because I feel like I have lots more questions than I have answers. Like I said at the beginning,

Lori Gallagher [00:31:53] I

Lee White [00:31:53] think you're in good company, Heather. I think you can say, just like my brother Joseph Smith was a doubter, maybe so.

Heather Olson Beale [00:31:59] But I. Well, I was very close afterwards because numerous people came up to me and thanked me for my honesty. So it did sort of make me wonder, you know, maybe there are more people and it's just really not cool to say that, you know, it's not cool to admit that.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Well, let's, let's definitely acknowledge that we're in a tough spot in terms of the way doubt is talked about. And let's, you know, to the extent that we decide to. Let's put our hats of hope on that maybe we can do our small part to make it better. How does that sound?

Heather Olson Beale [00:32:35] All right, sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Okay. Well, but I think this is a great segue into the topic of raising children more specifically. And what I'd like to do is start sort of chronologically so the primary experience. Who feels like they would best like to characterize the challenges with raising kids of primary age that, that our listeners also might empathize with? Who wants to take a stab? I can start.

Challenges of Primary and Religious Parenting

Lori Gallagher [00:33:04] I'll start.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Okay.

Lori Gallagher [00:33:05] Laurie, you know, I have the 5 year old and the 10 year old and their stages of development are, you know, it's very hard to teach them symbolism and myth and all of those things because they want it black and white. They need it black and white. So as a non believer, you know, I can freak out because they're learning, you know, they're singing the song follow the Prophet, you know, or we can teach. What does the prophet teach? And focus on the good things that he teaches rather than taking the emphasis on that. And you, and you teach them in your, in your own way to start to look for nuances. They can get it. They can get it in real subtle little ways.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] But Laurie, what are the. What are the. And you mentioned the exact obedience one. If you had to list some of the other messages that you don't love or that sometimes really like at all that are taught in primary. Let's just list them just so that we can all get on the same page. Are there any you want to add? I can add some. Heather, you might have some.

Lori Gallagher [00:34:13] Oh, I would say that anybody that doesn't follow the word of wisdom is bad. I mean, that's definitely would see it that it's. There's one way to heaven, there's one to heaven, and I have to be good to get there.

Heather Olson Beale [00:34:28] Right.

Lori Gallagher [00:34:29] Help me out here.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] How about. How about gays are bad? Yeah, that might be a message that some get some, you know, picked up along the way.

Lori Gallagher [00:34:38] And damaging is this non example for the girls. Non example for the girls. There's no women in any authority position. None.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] None. No picture. No pictures of women on the walls of primary.

Lori Gallagher [00:34:52] Oh, no. And they may see a primary president standing up there. And again, it goes back to the truth. I think they know she has to follow a program. It's. There's no power there.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] Right.

Lori Gallagher [00:35:05] So that's damaging.

John Dehlin [00:35:07] Lee, you were going to jump in. Let's keep with this theme of talking about what's hard and then we'll talk about how we deal with it. Did you have something you wanted to add, Lee?

Lee White [00:35:15] Yeah. I was just struck by Laurie's comment about Follow the Prophet. Just as an aside, does anybody ever listen to that and think that that's more appropriate as a Halloween song? Just melody.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] I've heard it characterized as appropriate for much worse. I'll say that.

Lee White [00:35:29] Moving on.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Heather, did you want to add any.

Lori Gallagher [00:35:34] I like to sing it at our house with our arms out front like a zombie.

Lee White [00:35:41] Okay, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] How about the recent song about the mother's role and the father's role?

Heather Olson Beale [00:35:47] Don't get me started.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Well, just describe, just for our listeners. Just describe what was hard for you about that, Heather. Just let me get you started. Not because we're griping, but because we're trying to get on the same page.

Heather Olson Beale [00:35:59] I'm actually the primary chorister, so when we. And I love it. So even listen when you ask that question, what are some hard things about primary? Despite all of my issues, that's a hard question for me to answer. I can hear the answers that other people give and see that. But I so love primary. I love myself to be in there. And I think that my kids have had very, very good experiences. So that's actually a hard question for me to answer. But regard that song, I had a very hard time because I don't. I really don't like the characterization or the oversimplification of divine gender roles. So the fact that there was. We had a whole month last year where we were supposed to talk about the responsibilities of fathers and the responsibilities of mothers, and the curriculum was written using, you know, quotes from the family proclamation. And that song was also. So there are. There are quotes and sentences pulled directly from the family proclamation. So I understand why it was used as source. But I have a very hard time with it and worried about how I was going to do it, and I worried about what my kids would think if I did it. Talking about faking it. I actually thought that my kids would like out me and say, what are you talking about, Mom? You know, So I actually just emailed the three members of the primary presidency and said I can't teach that song for those two weeks where I taught the first verse and I taught the fourth verse, and I skipped the two weeks when we taught the second verse and the third verse, because those are the ones that talk about father's roles and mother's roles. So I was happy, actually, to see that. I kind of worried about it because I thought what are these people going to do when I tell them I can't teach this song? And they didn't do anything. They just said. One of them actually emailed back and said, well, we definitely don't want you to have to do something that you don't feel comfortable with, so we'll take care of it.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] That's a good story.

Heather Olson Beale [00:38:02] So, yeah, that's a hard. The gender role thing is hard. And last year it was hard because the curriculum was all about eternal families, which is good on one side, but if you're anything other than a mom and a dad married in the temple, then I think that that message, which for some people is very good for other people, is very difficult to swallow. And actually, I. When we taught that song, I cut out pictures from the friend of all different races of people and ages and different family groups, and some with a. And a kid and some that had siblings and some just a dad. And I gave every kid in the primary a stick that had a different picture on it. And when we sang that song, each of them held up their different family. And so I did that to try to make. For myself, to try to make me feel better. And I said many points. During that year and especially during that month, everybody's family looks different. And Heavenly Father loves us to be in families, but everyone's doesn't look the same. And raise your hand if your family that you're holding look looks like your real family, and no one's did, you know? So, again, I don't know if anyone thought that was crazy or not, but I liked it.

Lee White [00:39:07] It's terrific.

Lori Gallagher [00:39:09] It's such a good example of creating your own power and taking it back and saying, I have jurisdiction over what we sing. So let's make this work. You know, I've been in primaries where we haven't learned certain songs and nobody's noticed.

Lee White [00:39:26] Right.

Lori Gallagher [00:39:27] They've been skipped over. But I like that, that you. You found a way to do it and include everybody.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] But you didn't go for the. The two daddies or the two mommies. Right, Heather, you showed some restraint.

Heather Olson Beale [00:39:39] Well, okay. Well, so let's say I had. For real. You're laughing, but. And I thought about it, and Brent asked me. Brent asked me if I was gonna do that. And I said, you know, I'm not, because that will ruin it.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Yeah.

Heather Olson Beale [00:39:53] I don't want anyone to think that I.

Lori Gallagher [00:39:55] Okay.

Heather Olson Beale [00:39:55] I'm not saying that. But that message was very well received by the adults that were in the room, I think. And one woman who actually Told me that she and her husband's former wife were very good friends. And anyway, she was talking about how she had a very non traditional family. And she told me she was grateful, very grateful for the lesson and the way I had taught it. But as soon as I had said, and look at this picture that has two moms and a kid or two dads, everyone's ears would have been closed. So I know better than to. I mean, that would have been spending too much, too much capital, I'm afraid.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Yeah, that's good.

Heather Olson Beale [00:40:32] That's very good.

How Much Nuance to Share With Children

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Well, I'm going to draw a line just starting from my own experience because I do think, you know, Laura, you bring up a good question about how much nuance and how much symbolism and metaphor can kids take. But I'm going to start by telling you guys, offering where we've drawn our lines. When my second daughter was four years old, we read her out of the illustrated Old Testament and we read her the story of Noah. And when we got done with the story, Maya says to me now, daddy, God created all those people, right? Yep. And Daddy, God created all those animals, right? Yep, yep. He sure did. And he loves, he loves all of us, right? And we're like, yep. And then she said, why did he go and kill them all then?

Lori Gallagher [00:41:24] Smart girl.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] I kind of had to make a decision right then that one place where I'm going to draw the line is ever teaching my children that God ever does a mean or a hateful or what I would consider to be an unchristlike thing. And yes, there will be moments where you have to say, we don't believe that the scriptures always, you know, are completely accurate. That sometimes the scriptures reflect the point of view of the people who are writing it, or sometimes they make a little bit of mistakes or even just simply saying to an 8 year old or even a 5 year old, mommy and Daddy don't necessarily believe that story exactly the way it's said. We don't believe God would be mean or harmful to people. And that's a line where we definitely choose to draw it. In other words, we kind of reject openly the Old Testament God and we sort of create God in the image we want to, which is a love and accepting God. That's the first thing. I'm just going to throw out a couple things that I want each of you guys to add or take away or respond to. A second thing that we just won't ever teach is superiority. So we teach our kids, we proactively teach our kids that people who drink coffee and smoke are good people and we are in no way better than them on that axis. And we feel like we proactively do that. We do that with homosexuality as well. We proactively teach even our 6 year old or 8 year old that we love people who are gay. We don't see them as lesser than and they are to be loved and accepted just like Jesus would. And then finally, I'm going to add, we overtly teach our children that our church is in no way superior to anyone else's church, that we have some good things. Maybe there are some things about our church that are better, but there are other churches that have things that are better than ours. And there are people who don't believe in churches at all that are awesome. And we definitely proactively teach our kids to not create this hierarchy of superiority where they think that they're ever better than anybody. And those are some places where we feel like even with 5 year olds you can draw the line and we can't do otherwise based on our conscience. So I'm going to throw it to Lee and then Laurie and then Heather to either talk about adding, subtracting or, you know, commenting on how they've handled things or would handle things.

Lee White [00:43:56] So Lee, Thanks. John Boy, I really appreciate the salient comments you make about how you put a framework of spirituality in front of your kids. Let me play off of that a little bit because I had a couple of experiences in raising my kids when they were younger that might inform this conversation. When my oldest daughter, who was born in 1975, came to me when she was 6, 7 years old after primary she said, dad, they had a picture up on the wall and they had the picture of the devil on the left hand side and picture of Christ on the right hand side. And on the left hand side under the devil, they had coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol. On the right hand side they had fruits, vegetables, a Snicker bar. And she wanted to and the conversation was as you described. People who use these items are evil. People who use these items under Christ are good, wholesome, Latter Day Saints or about to be Latter Day Saints. And she wanted some grounding. So my comment is about how you help your kids ground the experience in their religion with the reality of what we really hope and aspire that they begin to believe as core values in their lives. And with Lisa, with my other kids, we had conversations with them every time they came home and talked about word of wisdom, primary or young women's lessons. So as young kids, you Know. Fortunately, the conversation with my daughter when she was 6, 7 years old happened the day after. We had my boss from Washington, D.C. come in, and we served him an alcoholic drink and wine and got him some tea at the end of the evening. And we did that as a routine with our friends and families. My kids knew that I was a fairly chronic iced tea drinker. So in the contradiction, they wanted to know, how do we ground this religious experience with what we know to be the true way of living in our family? And as they became teenagers, I felt comfortable talking to them more fully about the evolution of the Word of Wisdom in the history of the church. How Brigham Young, even in their teens, how Brigham Young had the best stock liquor cabinet west of St. Louis for many, many years and would entertain people like Richard Burton and Mark Twain and others and would not just offer them drinks, but would drink with them. And that amazed them. And it also gave them a sense that this is an evolving belief and practice in the church. And then when they became young adults and had questions about the Word of Wisdom, it was a different conversation. Read the 89th section of the Doctrine and Covenants again. When it says not by way of commandment, but by way of advice or an admonishment for moderation, a word of wisdom, if you will, they got a different framework. Does it mean that they disbelieved it or they didn't practice it anymore? No, but they realized the truth can set them free. The other issue that we dealt with a whole lot was the whole notion of the trite phrase the one and only true church. The kids never heard me utter it. Even when I would bear my testimony in Sunday school classes or even at home with discussions about what we really did believe. I struggle with the phraseology. And they also know that there are many, many good things in other religions. We've experienced Shabbat with a lot of our Jewish friends. I've taken my kids to Zen temples before, and my kids know that I engaged in zazen a number of times. My wife and I, many years ago, got fed up with an Easter sermon in sacrament meeting on missionary work and St. Paul's Episcopal Church so we could experience the Stations of the Cross with our Episcopal brothers and sisters. My point is, my concluding point is from the very moment we knew we wanted to have kids and we started having kids, we decided that we wanted spirituality and overarching good core values as human beings to be the end to which we aspire for ourselves and our kids. And the church can be a great tool for that we never set out to teach our kids to be good Latter Day Saints as an end unto itself. Therefore we are not a doubting people never entered into the realm of their existence because questioning how you get to that end of being an ethical individual who has very strong self identity and strong self confidence became an overarching issue for them and doubt in question became an integral part of that.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] That's good stuff.

Guest [00:49:31] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you

Heather Olson Beale [00:50:11] Sam.

Answering Children's Hard Religious Questions

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 144

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

Lori Gallagher [00:00:17] Well, Lee's setting me up for One of the things that I found to be true is that my voice as a parent far overrides any voice they're going to hear from church. And not only your voice, but you, your example and how you live and the things you expose them to and the way you talk to them, all of those things influence your children. We're with them all of the time. They can sense whether you're being real or faking it. And I'm right with John on teaching them core values and focusing on the positive, giving them if they can pick any view of God, let's give them some good choices of how they can view God. I've taught my children about Mother in Heaven. I figure if we're going to use myth and metaphor, let's use myth and metaphor. We go with Mother in Heaven and I've recently just fallen in love with the stories of the Hindu gods and I teach them about them. I teach them that we rub Ganesh's head on the way out the door just to remember that obstacles can move out of our way. And those stories are so wild and crazy that there's no way they're going to take those literally even as a five year old. And so you know, my five year old will say her prayers at night and I'll say who do you want to pray to? And when she's really scared she'll pray to Mother in heaven. She gets very comforted by that and that's for her. And some days she likes to pray to Buddha. Buddha. I sing her. I sing her Sanskrit chants at night and she asks for them by name and then she goes to church. And in fact she was in Sunbeams in the very front row and she was the wiggly one. You know there's always one obnoxious wiggly child that was mine. But she would sneak up to the front and sit cross legged with her little fingers in chin mudra in meditation pose and say ohm. When it got really loud, you know, it's pretty big. Accepted. She's getting a really wide education. My hope is that I've given her enough myth and metaphor so so that God can be a powerful myth for her. My 10 year old questions that a lot and my 14 year old rolls his eyes at me but I believe in asking them questions so I'll tell them stories or I'll share what I believe. And then I'll say, what do you think? What do you think? What does God look like to you? And often they say, I don't know. And I'll say, ooh, think about that. When you know, let me know. You know, giving them enough faith that they're smart and intelligent, that they can walk whatever path they choose is, I think, a really smart way to do it. I like how Lee talked about grounding it. Right? I really. Grounding their religious experience so that they learn to listen to themselves, so that all these extraneous voices don't muck up their own internal voice. And if I can teach them one thing, I want them to know, to listen to that voice, to follow Jesus not as a son of God, but as a great spiritual teacher who said, above everything else, you know, we want love and we want acceptance, and we want to be one with everybody. That's it. I mean, if they can get that out of church, and hopefully they'll get that. I think that if we show them that, that we're able to navigate all these paradoxes and that we can do it somewhat gracefully, and that, you know, dad believes something and mom believes something different, and we don't have conflict with that. It gives them a lot of permission to be who they are. And that's our take with the little ones.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] That's great. Amen. Heather, any thoughts?

Heather Olson Beale [00:04:32] Wow, you guys are really smart. I'd say that I'm definitely trying, like Lori said, to ask them questions. When they ask me things, I'll either say what I think, or more often, I end up saying, I don't really know. Or sometimes I'll say, I used to think this. About six months ago, we were riding along in the car, and my youngest, who then was six, just piped up from the back and said he can't say his Rs. There's a lot of churches out there. And I was like, yep, there's a lot of churches out there. And he said, which one is the true one?

John Dehlin [00:05:09] True.

Heather Olson Beale [00:05:10] The true one. Which one is the true one? And I had, like, about two seconds to sort of formulate a response. And I had all these sort of things where I felt like, wow, what would I have said five years ago? How am I going to answer this? I don't want to say something that's going to shoot down whatever they think, but I want to say something that I could feel good about. I was sort of imagining what Brent, my husband, would think, what he would want me to say. And so I just said, well, I used to think that our church really was the one true church. And I said, but I don't really think that anymore. And he said, you don't? And I said, no, what do you think? I mean, maybe I'm doing that because I'm nervous a little bit. I mean, I can't really say I do that because, you know, I feel so smart or I want them to own their experience. Whatever part of it I think is just a stalling strategy, maybe. And my youngest said, I don't know. And he said, well, why do we go to our church? And I said, well, we go to our church because we've always gone to it. And I said, and we like it. And I said, sometimes when I'm there. I said, I feel comfortable when we go there. And I didn't say lots of times I feel uncomfortable. But I said, sometimes, you know, I like the music. And I said, sometimes when I hear people say things, I think, yeah, that makes sense. And I was just sort of making this up as I went along. And then my older daughter piped up from the backseat and said, well, when I go to our church, I hear a lot of things that don't make sense. And so I said, okay, wow. What do you hear? And she said, well, I just hear people saying things like, if you don't believe this thing, or if you don't do this thing, then you're not going to get to be with your family forever. And she said, and that just doesn't make sense because I think that God will want us to be with our families forever no matter what we think. And how. I mean, how can you. How could I have argued with that? How could I, in that moment have said, no, that's wrong. You have to do this, and you have to be married in this place, and you have to do this, this list of 18 things, or else Heavenly Father is going to keep you away from your family. I mean, that's all her life is right now. It's just her, you know, basically our family. So then I said, well, you guys will. How do you think it works? And they kind of talked about it for a minute, and then she said, well, I think basically you can just do whatever you want. And I said, really? Some examples like, well, you can do this or you can do that. And then they finally agreed that you could believe whatever you wanted, but you couldn't do anything that would hurt other people. And that's sort of where we left it. But I did think, wow, five or 10 years ago, if I had heard that, I would have said, you know, that's a bunch of post modern crap, you know, or if you believe in everything, then you don't believe in anything and those kinds of things. But as I listened to my kids that were 6 and 10, I thought, they kind of seem like they have it figured out maybe better than I do.

Guest [00:07:59] You know what strikes me, Heather, about your really smart stuff that you just said is the fact that I don't think the church deals with I don't know very well. It gets back to the point that was made earlier. We don't doubt. And it's not okay to say I don't know, because, you know, this is one thing that offended me. When I was in my early teens, I would question, I would raise doubts, and the response that I would get back is, just pray about it and you'll get an answer. It's not okay for you to stay stuck in the story or stay stuck in the question because you read the scriptures, you pray, you go to church doctrine, you can find an answer for everything. My adult life is a confirmation that there aren't answers for everything, that there's a lot of ambiguity. And frankly, some of that ambiguity is delicious for baby boomers who were raised in the church. We'll remember walking into church foyers when we were a primary age. So this is back in the early mid late 50s. And there was a poster that we used to put up in the foyer that said, dare to be different now. I was 8 years old when I first looked at that when I was living in Rose Park. And I thought, what the hell does that mean? Dare to be different? Because Rose park was 95% Mormon. And when I looked around my environment, Wayne Murakami, the Japanese kid down the street, looked different, but I didn't know that he could be different. And Tom Trujillo looked different, but he was a Catholic. And I didn't particularly make many distinctions with that guy. It got me thinking then, and I think I was honestly moved by the spirit at that tender age to really start looking at my unique gift. How could I be different from this sea of other Mormon kids growing up as baby boomers in the 50s and 60s? And what would be my unique gift? And that's one thing that I've tried to underscore to my kids, is I think there was a good message in that. Now the church didn't intend it to be interpreted the way that I interpreted it. Were looking for conformity more than questioning your environment and daring to play out differently than kids who were not abiding by the commandments in the church. But for me, it very solidly got anchored in my soul. This is permission to question. This is permission to say, how might there be other ways of getting my belief anchored in my soul and playing it out in a way that might be different than my neighbor who looks and feels the same way I do religiously.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] That's right, Lee.

Lori Gallagher [00:10:55] I relate to that so much. And that is the great teaching of this personal revelation and making it your own and asking. I think as far as religions go, there is that side to it and there's always. That can always be the answer to other, to people questioning how you're living is, you know, this feels true to me. This is. This feels true to me.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Yep. And I'm just gonna, before we move to this next topic, I'm just gonna echo one thing Laurie said that I think is so important, and that's that what you emulate in the home, and this maybe puts a little bit more of a burden on you than maybe when you were on autopilot as a, as a true believing sort of, you know, iron rod. Follow everything. If you as a parent are having scripture study and you're interpreting the scriptures for them in a way that's compatible with your view, if you're having regular family home evening in scripture study, which we do, we do scripture study every morning, we do family prayer every morning. We do family evening as much as we can. And if you're having Sunday afternoon dinners with your kids where you're talking about what they learned and you're talking about beliefs and thoughts and you take your parenting really seriously and maybe your concern about what they're taught at church is the motivation for you to make sure and have those conversations and then it becomes a blessing. But if you are accepting of homosexuals in the home, I think there's almost no chance that your kids are going to be bigoted against them when they're older. And if you are affirming of the equal value of women to men in the home, I don't think what message they get at church is going to trump that when they're older. And you can just go down the line with smokers or drinkers or whatever other churches. I just want to reiterate what you said, Laurie. The parents example is going to trump everything well said and we need to remember that. But I also want to just say one last thing, and that's that there are some cynical people who are going to say oh, well, this is. You're just making this a game. You don't believe the church is true. You don't think it's what it claims to be. You're kind of just piggybacking and using the church and just kind of taking advantage of it to your kids, you know, benefit. And I would say to that hogwash, politely, I believe, and I'll stand here and say that if inspiration exists, and I tend to just come down on the side that it does, I absolutely believe that it exists within our church, even in spades. That's just my personal opinion, in spite of all the crap and the bad stuff. And because of that, I can tell my kids not let's game the Mormon system because we can get benefit from it. But I can say mommy and Daddy choose to go to this church because it's our heritage, it's our people, it's our tribe, it's our spiritual language, and because we feel like it'll be good for you. And most importantly, because we think there are important truths and spiritual inspiration to be found there. That doesn't mean we think it's the only place. That doesn't mean we think it's better. It's just where we feel most comfortable and where we've made the decision to raise you. And it doesn't have to be this sort of disingenuous thing. It can be a very affirming, positive, faithful, and even spiritual thing, even as you position it to your children. Sorry, I just had to go on that rant. Will you guys forgive me?

Guest [00:14:25] Oh, that's eloquent.

When Kids Are Taught Things You Disagree With

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Okay, so let's go to this question of. As Heather corrected me, I used to say. What was the term I used to use? Deprogramming. And that is an offensive term. Heather suggested a better term, which is debriefing. What do you do when your child is taught something that you wish they hadn't been taught? And how do you keep every Sunday dinner from being this. What did you get taught? Okay, that's wrong. And what did you get taught? Oh, that's a load of crap. I mean, you certainly don't want all your church discussions to be about how much crap you heard that past Sunday. So first, to illustrate the empathy, Laurie, I think you had an experience where your kids were taught something that you kind of wish they hadn't been taught. Is that right?

Lori Gallagher [00:15:15] Oh, yeah, that was recently. And I ended up dealing with that by accident. The seminary teacher had sent an email and said that they wanted every parent to write a letter to Their child talking about the, I can't remember which part of the Book of Mormon, the story.

Heather Olson Beale [00:15:34] Stripling warriors.

Lori Gallagher [00:15:36] Stripling warriors. Right, right. And the whole gist was that they were learning the whole year that we're in a war that we have to win and we have to fight the world to be righteous, you know, and this is a paradigm that I find really, really damaging. And, and I was putting it on the back burner and I kept kind of, you know, inviting my husband to end, to write that letter for him because I'm a believer. Then 10 o' clock the night before, the seminary teacher says, we really want every kid to have a letter. So I stayed up for a while and I really thought about it and I was able to draw analogies from that story that were meaningful. And, and I just wrote him a really heartfelt letter and I said, you know, people are going to tell you, you know, and people in this church are going to tell you that the world is a scary place, that we have to fight against the rest of the world and it's not true. So I used the actual story to illustrate how you can use that metaphor, however it works for you. And I was using it to illustrate non violence and listening to your own heart and how you don't have to conform. So that meant a lot. And it was really neat for me as the non believer to use my own, my own heritage and to be a part of it and to participate. That connected me with him.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] And I would suggest, and maybe I'll ask you to let me post that as a link on this blog post if you're comfortable sharing it. If you're not, that's cool too. But what a beautiful letter that was. Well, what about the temptation to like read the primary teacher the riot act or the seminary teacher the riot act. Heather, have you ever have. Either of you or Lee, have you guys ever felt that temptation or tried to do it or found a better way to approach it?

Heather Olson Beale [00:17:36] Well, I've certainly felt the temptation. I haven't done it. And I feel like, I don't know if this is just that maybe this is just my own daughter, but I feel like it's becoming harder to do some of these things with my oldest daughter just turned 13 than it is with my younger two. And that's why I said maybe it's just her personality. She seems to be much more of a black and white thinker. Meanwhile, I have my middle daughter, you know, kind of teaching me about all the mysteries of life. But yeah, she's come home. And she told me, and some of this I think is a manipulative kind of teenager thing because we got in the car one Sunday not too long ago and she said, hey, we learned today about how men are in charge of everything because they have the priesthood. And I sort of just looked at my husband and I was thinking, she totally, she's goading me. She framed it that way. I mean, I'm assuming that they didn't use those words with her, but she knew that that sort of would get, you know, would get my goat. But that basically is what they had talked about. And she said that one of the teachers was talking about how she had given up a career as a lawyer, I think, to stay at home and have children. And I just said, well, that's interesting because she never had a career as a lawyer. So she gave up the idea of that in the same way that I gave up the idea of being like a famous Nashville singer. I mean, that, that wasn't, that wasn't real. So I said, I don't like the characterization that that was something that she gave up. Although, I mean, it's, that's mean. That sounds mean. Take this out, John.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Okay.

Heather Olson Beale [00:19:14] No, but to characterize it that way, I do think is also mean to talk about giving things up, things that you never really even had, you know, but I didn't and I don't do. I sort of have this plan in my mind with my kids, school, teachers as well, that I choose my battle very, very. I mean, I'm as choosy as can be. I've got three kids and so numerous years in the school system and I may have sort of lodged a complaint probably less than five times. I've wanted to many times, but I much prefer when I walk into my kids school and when I walk into the church building for people to see me and think, oh, that's Heather or that's Stuart's mom or that's Kennedy's mom. We like her, she helps us, she's supportive. Because I just feel like, you know, always being the squeaky wheel and always complaining is just not going to be the way to go. So I've never approached a teacher at church and said, I don't like that you taught that. I guess somebody could say that I'm, you know, a coward then. I just don't feel like that's, that's just not the approach I take. I guess I prefer with my own kids just to say, what do you think about that? Or after we had that discussion with KENNEDY I said, well, what do you think? And she actually said about whether men are in charge. She said, oh, I think it's true. And I said, do you? And she said, yeah. And I said, well, what have you seen in our family? Have you seen that to be true? And she said, well, I guess not. And I said, yeah, I guess not, because that's not really the way we, we run things. But I'm just not going to go to someone who's a volunteer, particularly the people in the youth program, and read them the riot act. I feel like they're people that are, that have very good intentions, that sacrifice lots of time. And so I'm just willing to take things that I don't agree with and just use it as a discussion point, I guess.

Lori Gallagher [00:21:14] LEE yeah, I don't know where we get the idea that, that their kids are going to be brainwashed. I mean, we also become fearful of what they're going to know. And if we want them to explore thought, let them explore thought, you know.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] LEE what were you going to say?

Guest [00:21:33] 2 Comments first, with primary teachers, by and large, we never had continually negative experiences with primary teachers. We had occasional lessons that were taught that represented bigotry and really stuff that we would have appreciated that our kids not be exposed to it. But because of the way we debriefed and processed and discussed on Sunday afternoons and into Sunday evenings what went on in church earlier in the day, I felt we handled it and I felt we gave our kids a solid foundation on which to make their own decisions and their own judgments about the veracity of anything they may have heard or learned in church. It was a different story when my kids got into young women, particularly around sexual education things. When the young women leaders would put the knell in the board as a way of talking about virtue lost when you let down your guard, I took issue with that.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Or the peanut butter and jelly sandwich that's been licked. Or the gum that's already been, the

Guest [00:22:45] gum that's been chewed, the Snickers bar

Heather Olson Beale [00:22:48] that's been passed around in the classroom and groped that one.

Guest [00:22:53] All of the above. All of the above. When my kids would come home and tell me that, keep in mind they were always doing it in the context of mom, dad. We heard this in young women's today, and it's a contradiction to the conversations we've been having for four, five, six years about sex and what it is to us. So, you know, when our kids would start getting curious about sexuality, 8, 9 years of age, we would Give them a little bit at a time and then based on their questions, start forming a well rounded sense of what sexuality was with a fully balanced, fully integrated life. But everything we taught our kids about sexuality was this is a very positive, nourishing, energizing and fulfilling part of your life. And it's something that is reserved for a time in your life when everything seems to come together and it fits better in the timing of life. And when they would come back and say, well, we were told that even kissing is evil, I would rant a little bit and as I'm prone to do, line my hair on fire and dance around the room. And my wife Marilyn would say, well, we're grateful that the teacher is doing volunteer work and at least putting the issue in front of our kids so that we can have this kind of a conversation. She's actually facilitating and enabling our ability to do our job of continuing our sex education with our kids. But you know, on rare occasions I was known to go to young women leaders and on one occasion a young men's leader and say, I resent what you've done. Let me tell you why. And if you disagree with me, then I don't think it's a good environment for my daughter to be coming back here.

Lori Gallagher [00:24:53] I think there are so many loving ways to talk to people about that and maybe they had never thought about it and so open these dialogues. It's also okay if you have one teacher who just doesn't quite get it and your child is not happy and you're not happy. It's okay not to send them. It's okay. We're just skipping for this year. That's cool. Come go for a walk for me during Sunday school. You know, nothing wrong with that. I'm the boss.

Heather Olson Beale [00:25:23] Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that with a lot of things. And again with my kids, school teachers too, if they come home and tell me something, that's actually a reason to me to have them go to church. Go to church and hear something else different than what I tell you. Go to. I don't want my kids just to, only to listen to me. So I'm happy for them to go. I think I'm genuinely happy. I don't think I'm just saying this. I'm happy for them to go to church and hear someone who is a more traditional believer and someone who is more faithful and someone who is more spiritual than I am, because that's a benefit to me. And then if that seems like it clashes with something that they're Seeing coming from me, that's an opportunity for a discussion. That's an opportunity to say, well, why do you think that she thinks that? Or, why do you think he said that? That hasn't been my experience, but that's okay. And everybody has to find their own way. I don't know. I don't find that threatening. I'm actually grateful, like Lee said, for people to say things sometimes that I don't agree with, because otherwise it would never occur to me. My daughter came home today telling us something that happened at school that was totally. That her teacher let go, that was totally homophobic. And we had a conversation that I would definitely not have had otherwise. So I am actually grateful that the teacher did that, because otherwise it would never have occurred to me to have told my daughter the things that I did tonight.

Raising Kids With Moral Complexity and Open Inquiry

John Dehlin [00:26:47] What about the argument that this is weak, that kids need direction, they need clear values, that they need clear sense of right and wrong? And this whole what do you think? Is not what a kid needs? You know, maybe that's what an adult needs. But what about kids need clear direction, and they need to be told, don't touch the stove. They don't need to, like, learn by putting their hand on the stove that they can get burned. What would you guys say about that?

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:14] I would say that's a different way of thinking.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] Is this how you were raised, Heather?

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:23] I think so. I think we had plenty of dinnertime conversations about things that had come up at church. My parents are both very, very, very active in the church. And lots of times my dad, he's very patient. And lots of times his response was just, well, just rise above it. Kind of like, just don't worry about it. And I guess sometimes it might seem that that was dismissive, but then I think, well, but in a lot, for a lot of cases, that is what it takes. Just don't worry about it. Or he sometimes would say, some things matter, some things don't, some things last, some things won't. And that sort of just was his message to us, I guess, when we would get into these agitated, kind of agitated states about things that people had said, and sometimes, frankly, we would just laugh. He would just say, well, you know, that's just silly, and just totally dismiss it. And so I guess at our house, it was okay to say this. It was plenty okay to say that something that you had heard at church was silly or just not worthy of your emotional energy. So just put it away.

Lori Gallagher [00:28:32] But I think there is a valid point to giving your kids and Lee Used the word grounding, and I really like that word. Your children do need grounding. They need limits, they need, they need a place to move from, right? With their feet solid on the earth. And so if a more orthodox Mormon is going to say, oh, you're messing your kids up, I go back to. And here's Dan on one side really wanting them to get these messages from church, and me really wanting the hippie, dippy side of life, right? And the way we've come together on that is to really clearly establish our family values of tolerance, of love, of acceptance. And we as adults try to live by that, but we come back to that. And so your behavior should line up with our family values. And that's not a Mormon thing. That's a good family. All good families have values that they stick by. And all good Mormon families have that too. And. But I think that keeps us out of the trap of dogma. Keeps us out of the trap of dogma.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] And I should just add, for those who are skeptical that a more progressive, open minded approach to raising your kids is going to lead them to be evil, sinning, horrible people that I guess, Heather, you're saying your parents raised you guys that way. And Lee, I think you probably say you tried to raise your kids that way, right? Sure did. I know Heather's family and Lee, I know some of your family and it sounds like there is bright hope that this can be done. True. I mean, there are people who need this encouragement.

Guest [00:30:21] I look at my three daughters and I experience them as powerful, intelligent, questioning, contributing, dynamic women. They are known in their neighborhoods, not just in their community of faith, in their neighborhoods, as go to people for solving problems that present themselves in people's lives on a day to day basis. And I think they acquired a lot of that for Marilyn and me. But I also think their community of faith made contributions. My kids have a whole lot more people who were young women, advisors, primary teachers, leaders in the church, men and women who had a tremendous impact on their thinking and their religious beliefs every bit as much as Marilyn and I did. And what Marilyn and I did was facilitate their maturation of their own core values as human beings and the formation of their self identity. And their self identity now contains an element of Mormon ness that I think would be awfully difficult for them to cleanse from their life experience, no matter how much they might end up doubting it in later years, in adulthood.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] And I just want to close this discussion with a thought that Bonner Ritchie taught me. He basically said that all organizations by definition, are going to do evil or can do bad things. There's just no way to prevent that. As soon as you have an entity that's created to cater to the needs of the many, it by definition is going to leave out or even damage or harm the few. And so his mantra that he likes to say often is you cannot make organizations safe for people, so you must make people safe for organizations. And it feels to me like what you guys are advocating is very much along those lines. Kids are going to have to go to school, they're going to have to go to the big bad world and their jobs. They're going to have to learn when to speak up, when not to, when to complain, when not to, when to disagree, when not to, when to just shut up and be quiet and take it, and when to speak out. And it seems like this can be a wonderful laboratory to help them become stronger. Is that possible? Is that kind of what I'm saying?

Guest [00:32:52] I think that's exceptional. That's a good conclusion. It resonates with me.

The Dilemmas Around Baptism

John Dehlin [00:32:56] All right. Okay, so let's move to another question and let's talk about baptism. The biggest dilemma with baptism. Well, there's a couple dilemmas that people face. One is just this classic question of is my kid old enough to make that decision? They're going to be put on the rolls, you know, should we wait until they're 15 or 20 and let them decide for themselves? I think that's a natural question. Let's just handle that briefly first. Anybody want to jump in and address that?

Lori Gallagher [00:33:32] Yeah, go ahead, Heather.

Heather Olson Beale [00:33:35] I just was going to say I sometimes think that people expect too much out of 8 year olds. I was reading something somewhere on a blog last week where someone was saying that her, I think it was a she. Her daughter was almost eight and she was. This woman was worrying about whether her daughter had a testimony or not and what could she do about it? I'll just say I just totally couldn't relate to that because to me we're talking about 8 year olds. And I'm not saying we should just dunk them. I'm not saying that at all. But I think there's a lot of other purposes of baptism. I think it's sort of a coming of age thing. I think it's a very beautiful family ritual. I think it's a great opportunity just for a lot of people, church people, family members, to show a child, we see that you're getting older, we love you, we see that you're wanting to make decisions. You know good decisions or wanting to become a better person. So to me, I think it's probably actually silly. That's maybe not a very nice word. But for us to honestly expect an 8 year old to fully like understand what that means, I'm okay with the kid not fully understanding that. I mean, there are adults that don't fully understand that. So why would we think an 8 year old would be able to handle really heavy stuff like that? I don't think they do. And I think that's, I think that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] So how do you. So the message about baptism is you have to do this to get to heaven. If you don't do this, you won't go to heaven. This is the way to follow Jesus and we're the only ones with authority and everyone else's baptism is illegitimate. You know, those are some of the messages that a kid can receive. Have any of you found a way to deliver maybe an alternative message?

Lori Gallagher [00:35:25] Yeah, you know, I went through, my son was 8 right about when I was really making the decision to pull back from the church. And I was afraid that I would sit there and you know, like, how do I become a part of this, this and not have it be a really negative day for me? Do I pull the plug on it? What do I do? You know? And it was interesting because I just talked with my son and I framed it in two ways. One was I asked him if he wanted to and he said yes. He was very excited. He wanted to be part of the tribe that I'm a part of. He wanted to be a part, you know, he wanted to be part of the tribe that his friends were a part of. That sense of belonging is really important, especially if they've been raised in it. And the other thing that I phrase, I said, you don't have to get baptized. It's your choice. And if you choose to get baptized, it means that you want to be like Jesus. I didn't say you have to, you know, commit to all these things and believe he is the son of God. I just said, you know, we want to follow Jesus. And he was so excited. And that day meant a lot to me because our primary presidency went way out of their way to include my non member family and this whole group of people coming from different states and different places coming to Support one little 8 year old boy and the look on his face. How often in their life do they have their tribe all in one room holding them up? You know, it was a really neat experience and it only had the power That I gave it. It only meant what we decided it meant. And other people can look at it different ways, but between my son and I, that's what it meant for him. And I was really proud of him for. At 8. At 8 for me, it meant he wanted to do what was right. He wanted to make positive steps in his life. And he did and he felt great. So

Heather Olson Beale [00:37:27] sorry, I was just gonna say. The day my oldest daughter got baptized was actually a very difficult day for me. And I did toy in that afternoon. It was a Sunday with not going through with it. We had one of those state conference broadcast things from Salt Lake and we had my sister and her family there, my parents and my in laws. And I honestly can't even remember who it was that spoke. It was one of the apostles and gave a very, a talk that was very not friendly, I guess, to women in my mind. I honestly can't even remember what the content of the talk was other than I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, this is so. This is such a negative message. And all this family is here and it's supposed to be this beautiful great day and I'm going to have my daughter, my very strong, assertive daughter baptized into this church where she is going to sort of be fed a healthy diet of this. I left the meeting in tears and we went home and I was supposed to be preparing food for everybody. And I was sort of slamming dishes around and trying to not completely, you know, like throw a temper tantrum or whatever. And one of my in laws actually said, you know, gee, what, what happened to Heather and what's going on? And Brent said, oh, well, she was pretty upset about what whoever it was said and something about the priesthood. And one of my in laws said, well, but I mean, men have the priesthood. That was their explanation for whatever had been said. And Brent was like, yeah, but it's kind of bigger than that, kind of a bigger issue than that. And I definitely was crying and I didn't want her to know because she knew why everyone was there. I talked to my dad sort of privately with lots of kids running around, as private as that can be. And he actually just said, heather, at some point or you may reach a point where you just can't abide this anymore. I mean, if you feel like you're all the time so agitated by things like this and you're so upset, then you're just gonna have, you may just have to say, I'm done with this. In order to be a healthy person, I need to be Finished with this and hearing that from him or just sort of hearing him say those words and almost like give his blessing on that choice should I make it, which I don't intend to, I think really, really calmed my fears, I guess. And I talked to her briefly about it. But I also didn't want to turn it into a big day where mommy is ranting about women or the priesthood or whatever. They get that enough. But when I remember that day, I guess I remember two things. One, how alienated I felt and two, then remembering from my own dad. Again, speaking of the power of parents, just saying you've got to be happy and acknowledging that that might not be in the traditional Mormon path. That was important to me.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Great story. All right, Lee, you got a swing or you good?

Guest [00:40:36] I've got a lot of common ground with Heather and Laurie, so I wouldn't have much to add, especially with my daughters. Although when Heather was talking about her daughter and the stereotypical roles for men and women. My daughter Amy was baptized two months after the Ezra Taft Benson talk on women, leave your jobs, go back to your homes where you belong. And she was probably the deepest questioning soul of all of my daughters. And we had abundant, rich conversation. Around the time of her baptism. My son had a different experience, though there's an eight year gap between my youngest daughter and my son. Amy was born in 1980, David was born in 1987 late. And so we'd moved from Salt Lake up to Seattle about the time we moved. He was becoming a baptism age. And the bishop was a very pious fellow who wanted to really grill him about the symbolism of going into the water as though you were being buried and then coming out and, and being reborn. That kind of frightened him. And so we once again, Laurie grounded it a little bit after the Bishop's interview and I was able to convey to him a message very similar to the one you conveyed to your son. If you want. This is you arguing that you want to be more like Jesus. He did this because it made sense to him. If it makes sense to you, then why don't you go ahead and do it? And I think you'll feel pretty good about that. And he did. He had a good experience with it. But as both Laurie and Heather have eloquently articulated, these are eight year old children and the ritual of becoming part of the community of faith is an important one and it's to be celebrated with family. And we didn't make much of the depth and breadth of the religious experience with it. That came later.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Right. Okay. Well, let's turn to a question that's very common. It's actually a major moment of trauma for many people. If it so happens that the male in the marriage is a disbeliever or a semi believer or a non believer or whatever, there's this question and let's say they may even not be fully observant. Maybe they're not a full tithe payer. Maybe they're not a word of wisdom observer. Maybe they don't even go to church. There is always this question of who baptizes or who ordains the boys to the priesthood. And I guess there are a couple questions that are asked. Number one is, can someone who's not temple worthy perform a priesthood ordinance like baptism or priesthood ordination? And the second question is, is it unethical or immoral to do it regardless of one's belief in the efficacy of the church's truth claims? I've got some thoughts on this, but I want to let you guys get your stab before I throw in. So does anybody have an opinion on why that person should still consider doing it if they're, you know, leaning in that direction? Lee, let's start with you.

Guest [00:43:59] My dearest friend in Salt Lake is a closet doubter and he's been very open about his questions and concerns about the church, even though he attends on a fairly regular basis and contributes where he can, both financially and in jobs that he takes with the church. And he's had two very different stake presidents and the bishop's been consistently supportive of him because they know that this guy comes from a place of deep integrity. But one stake president understood him and said, yeah, you can ordain your boys. I want you to do this. You're still part of the community of faith and you do have the authority to do it. And I don't see any violation of any of God's laws in having you do this. Even though you question whether this is an effective use of. Your relationship with your son. It became a completely different question when his middle child of three sons wanted to get married in the temple and wanted dad and mom to come and they were not temple worthy and, and even though they abided by all of the rules of the church and were able to answer most of the questions correctly, the fact that they couldn't answer the question, do you believe in the divinity of the church? Affirmatively, completely affirmatively raised enough questions with that stake president that he said, no, you're not temple worthy, I'm not going to let you do it. And it created resentment and bitterness and raised questions and concerns about that broader, more embracing, tolerant framework that you talked about a little earlier. John I believe to the depths of my soul that the majority of the general authorities and top leaders of the church and women leaders want to create an umbrella that is all embracing and inclusive. I think there are exceptions to that rule, however, and I don't think we've got enough management discipline in the church to call this when someone violates that agreement that we want to be as inclusive as we can. That's how I feel on it. Sure, I might be wrong.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] I'll just jump in and just give my two cents and that's that I am unaware of any church policy that says that word of wisdom or other elements, full tithe paying or any other requirement for a temple recommend is actually a requirement for baptism or for priesthood ordination. And I am absolutely aware of men who were not word of wisdom obeyers, who were not full tithe payers, who were allowed to baptize or ordain their children. And so I just want to put that on the record, first of all, that until I'm made aware of something else, you know, maybe it is the bishop's decision, but there are plenty of instances where that was allowed. And so I just want to, you know, sort of state that on the record. There's also one other thing I wanted to add that may seem like it's parsing a bit, but there is a. There is. Well, there's two things. There's that story that's been told in General Conference and I can't remember who it was or what they said, and I'm really regretful about that. But the basic gist of the story was a boy was to be ordained, the father was inactive, and I think this was told by an apostle and the inactive father was encouraged to ordain or baptize the child. And so I think that that's been spoken over General Conference and we can try and provide that reference later if people need that. And then finally, shoot, I forgot what the final thing was. But those are, those are some things I want to offer people if they're struggling to decide that it's something they can do. So any other people want to disagree or take issue or agree?

Lori Gallagher [00:48:15] Well, I think it comes down to the question, are you faking it? You know, and for this is when I'm glad not to have the priesthood. This is a really tough one for a non believer. It's really tough mostly because what are your children going to Think of you, Right?

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Yeah.

Lori Gallagher [00:48:30] But you have family members coming from out of town for these ordinances. And I think the really two really important questions are, do you really want to perform this ordinance? Do you feel pressure to do it? You have to be okay with yourself. Does it affect your integrity to do it or not? And different people will have different answers, but we have to find a way to navigate that with integrity.

Heather Olson Beale [00:48:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] I fully respect even, maybe even a little more, the people who decide that on a matter of principle, they can't do it. So I want to validate that and even hold it up as a matter of real integrity. But I don't think it has to be disingenuous or deceitful. And the other thing I was going to say that I forgot, there's actually a Book of Mormon prophet whose name is on one of the books of the Book of Mormon who acknowledges that he was a disbeliever or not a believer. Do you guys remember that? I think it's Omni. And he basically says, well, I'm not really a believer. I'm not really into this religious stuff, but I'm passing on the scriptures to the next generation. And that's pretty much all he wrote. But, you know, you got to wonder, why was he allowed to have his name as one of the books in the Book of Mormon? So I'm trying to give justification. Some may think I'm dissembling, but there you have it.

Lori Gallagher [00:49:42] I just think it's personal. It's really personal.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] That's right.

Lori Gallagher [00:49:45] And you have to be cool with it.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] That's. That's cool.

Heather Olson Beale [00:49:47] Yeah. I mean, we're talking about something that's totally not quantifiable belief.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Right.

Heather Olson Beale [00:49:53] I mean, like, if we, you know, we would give some people a 100 and then go, you know, move on a sliding scale from there. I mean, that's why.

Lori Gallagher [00:50:01] Yeah.

Heather Olson Beale [00:50:02] It is personal. I think if it feels wrong to you.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] Right.

Heather Olson Beale [00:50:05] If it makes you have, like, kind of a sick feeling in your stomach doing it, then maybe that's a sign that you shouldn't be. But if you feel like, hey, this is good, this is important between me and my kid, or your God.

Lori Gallagher [00:50:19] Yeah.

Heather Olson Beale [00:50:19] Then I don't see it as an ethical issue, any of those belief questions.

Lori Gallagher [00:50:26] To me, I have empathy for those fathers making this decision. And the only thing that comes that I can understand equal to that would be if my sons choose to go on missions and they go through the temple and I have to wait with the children. It makes you feel like you're not respected anymore. And I think finding a way to support your kids on their own path and give them the space to do that. And realize it's not always about you. It's about this 8 year old boy. It's about this 19 year old son who's trying to live his life in a good way. And we have to eat it sometimes. We have to eat our perception of ourself and our worries about what other people say about us and put our children first in those positions.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] Yeah. Yep. I can't resist one last thing to add. And what you guys have said is all awesome. In other religious traditions, this is no big deal. All of Reformed Judaism, which is the largest branch of Judaism in the United States, they basically have almost no, as I understand it, very little to no literalistic beliefs in God, in a messiah, in the validity of the Old Testament. And they're performing religious ordinances all the time. Episcopalians and Lutherans and Presbyterians. You could totally say I have no idea what God's like and I have no idea if this is the one true church. But these are priests performing ordinances. And you can even find Catholic priests who, if you ask them, is this the one and only true church, we're the only ones with authority. They'll say, oh no, but they're out there performing Mass. And so I do think that there's an issue of maturity that our church might likely follow suit on wherein someday there aren't these litmus tests for orthodox theological beliefs that are barriers to not only performing ordinances, but being in the temple and watching temple marriage and stuff like that. Do you guys think that I'm full of cred there or can that pass the panel?

Heather Olson Beale [00:52:29] It's hopeful.

Lori Gallagher [00:52:33] It's not the way it is today.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] I know, I know I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

Lori Gallagher [00:52:39] I would love to witness my own son's baptism. I would love to have my name on that piece of paper, forget baptized. I would love to just be counted as a witness to somebody there. Wouldn't that be a good dream?

John Dehlin [00:52:52] Maybe someone's gonna hear this. You know, maybe someone will hear this. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your ward bulletin and ward newsletter newsletter. Just kidding about those last two Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an E. S, K, Y E. Pixton.com thank you.

Heather Olson Beale [00:53:49] The sun gone down.

Young Women's Program and Gender Concerns

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 145

Guest [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Alright, let's turn to the young men and young women's programs and I'm going to just turn the time over to Heather and Laurie. What? You know, I have daughters and young women and everything's going great. So let's start by saying what would be concerns that we should have about red flags or issues that a daughter might face that a progressive or an unorthodox LDS person should watch out for or maybe be concerned about? Why would we even have this as an issue on the table?

Heather Olson Beale [00:00:52] Are we making a list?

John Dehlin [00:00:54] Well, it's just to set the context. We have all sorts of listeners. So there's some listeners who are true believers and you've never thought about any of this and there are others who are doubters and hate everything. It's just a level setting, not to gripe, but just like, let's set the table of what are some of the things that you guys have been frustrated with that you've had to try and navigate as non traditional believers?

Heather Olson Beale [00:01:18] The biggest thing for me is just the gender roles and that's everywhere. But it does, it has become a bigger issue for me, much bigger. The transition for me in terms of my kids dealing with that issue and my kids, when they, when my oldest moved from primary to young women was absolutely huge, like ticked, massive tectonic plates shifting. I felt like we went from lessons in primary about service, how you can help people in your family, being nice to other people. Yeah, we get the obedience thing. I mean, there's other things. But we went basically from a much more principled principles base to lots more talk about gender roles, the divine role of women, I feel. I mean, so somehow it became a little. I'm not being very articulate.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] You're doing great.

Heather Olson Beale [00:02:19] It became more dogmatic, I guess. And so there were more things for me that were objectionable to me once she got into young women. She also has told me that not a week goes by that they don't talk about chastity. So that went from, we don't talk about that in primary. I mean, we might talk about wearing modest clothes, which, I mean, which I think is a conversation that can also get really obnoxious. But I think there's a lot of good to it also. We talk about that at our house. You know, why you wouldn't want to dress like a hoochie mama. That's what my youngest son Refers to it as. But why did she turn 12 and then all of a sudden start hearing about chastity? She didn't even know what that meant. So that's worrisome to me.

Lori Gallagher [00:03:05] Why?

Heather Olson Beale [00:03:05] I mean, I almost feel like it's sort of filling their heads with ideas that they're not. That they're not ready for and that they don't need. And it's tiresome to her. I mean, she loves young women, but she often rolls her eyes and says, well, every single week we talk about chastity. So that's tiresome. What do you want to add to the list, Lori?

Lori Gallagher [00:03:26] Oh, gosh, I think. I mean, this is when I really started to struggle with my testimony was in the young women's program. As a teenager, there was no talk of women going on missions. It was always men, the equality in the different activities that the girls would have, that the boys would have. Boys were going on high adventure things, and we were lucky to get the money to have an ice cream party, you know, and then we're always baking something in the kitchen. And there's this idea that boys want sex and girls don't. And then you find yourself with your boyfriend, and you know what? You want it, too. And you're not taught that that's normal. So, you know, what's going on with you. And for me, just so much talk about getting married. I had a wonderful Laurel teacher. I remember her taking the manual. I must have been 17. And we looked up to her. She was gorgeous and hip and she was a lawyer. And she took this manual and she tossed it aside, and she goes, in good consciousness, I cannot teach you one more lesson on eternal marriage. And she goes, you guys need to learn to get ready for college. We're going to talk about college prep. And I was so grateful to her because she didn't placate to us the way everybody else did. I was tired of being treated like an innocent young thing, and I was smarter than that, and I wanted to be treated smarter. And I want my girls to be treated smarter. It's going to be a challenge when my daughter turns 13. Figuring out how to counterbalance all those messages that they suddenly get when they're going through this phase. When girls hit 9 and 10, they're so much more aware than boys, typically, of how the world sees them and who they should be and how they should behave. And the world's very quick to teach them how to behave. And we want the girls to be true to themselves and to listen to their voice and not lose that connection. And I'm going to be watching with an eagle eye when my daughter turns tall.

Heather Olson Beale [00:05:35] But it also, the time that they spend with people also easily doubles. So you go from primary where they get 45 minutes with a primary teacher, and then about that same amount of time with, you know, the primary presidency, and that's it. And then they're getting together on Wednesday nights, Every Wednesday night. And then they have firesides, and then they have bishops youth discussions, and then sometimes they'll go to the temple, and that takes all day where we live. So there's so many more opportunities for them to be with other leaders. So, I mean, just in sheer minutes alone, that. That's a big jump. And I feel like they get to a place where, I mean, I feel like it was interesting that Lee and Lori, both of you guys, and maybe John, too, were saying that what parents say carries a lot more weight. But I feel like for me, that has shifted a little bit, too, and that's been hard for me to see. I think that that's normal, although I don't think this is what you guys were saying, so maybe I'm just wrong. I feel like my daughter is moving to a place where now she is paying more attention to what other adults say. Maybe not more than she does to me, but definitely more than she has in the past. So she has these leaders in young women that she sees a lot more, and she's developing relationships with them and she's getting to where she respects them a lot. And so I think it's actually easier for my younger kids to hear something silly and say at church, well, I don't believe that. But for my older daughter, who I think part of it is the depth, the relationships that she's developing just due to that time, she's paying more heed to that than she used to, becoming harder, you know, for her to sit in the car and say, oh, I do think it's true that men are in charge of everything. That's the way it's supposed to be. I mean, that's like a knife in my gut, basically. And that may be her just. Just pulling my, you know, yanking my chain a little bit, but that's hard to swallow. Or I can just feel like, oh, I'm losing a little bit of my. I'm losing a little bit of my authority, or I'm having to cede some of that to other people. That's hard.

Lori Gallagher [00:07:39] Well, this is my concern, too, and this is when I cross the line of that the church is good and useful to the church is damaging. Right. When do you cross that line? When they're crossing your family values of equality and tolerance? For me, it's the same with the gay issue. You know, I'm going to stand up and I'm going to say it clearly and loudly. It's not okay. This discrimination of teenagers, women in the church.

Heather Olson Beale [00:08:05] It's just not okay.

Lori Gallagher [00:08:06] It's not helpful. And, you know, I want her to go if she wants to. If she gets good friends and friendships and connection out of it, I would be okay with that. But it's still one of the last untouched frontiers between my husband and I of how to navigate.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Well, Lee, you've raised at least three daughters who have seemed to come out of this, you know, at least not completely destroyed. Do you have any tips or tricks on how to navigate these waters with young women?

Lee White [00:08:42] I think we weren't completely successful. I think our daughters challenged us on many occasions, and that was a healthy dynamic. But I think if we did anything well with our kids, it was taking a very balanced approach with how we grounded virtually everything they were experiencing in life with how they could stay in charge of it, how they could control their own lives and do things that would support the formation of their own identities and their own values. And when I would get out of line occasionally and kind of move a little unaware into more of an authority role, Marilyn would always jokingly say, see that jar over there on the table? That's where your father's going to keep his testicles if he starts acting up too much in the future. And, you know, my daughter's got a kick out of that. So we always had a healthy disregard for dogma and conformity and playing the rules by someone else's game plan when we didn't have an opportunity to weigh in on the content and the commitment of that game plan. I taught my kids from a very early age, and Marilyn was there with me every step of the way. Context is every bit as important as text, meaning how you live your life and where you make your commitments and how you exhibit and how you perform on a day to day basis is every bit as important as the scriptures or the rules that have been presented to you. My daughters are feminists, and I'm proud to say that they learned that from a feminist father.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Amen.

Heather Olson Beale [00:10:40] Amen.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] Hallelujah.

Lori Gallagher [00:10:43] And I hold that feminism still is the best thing that's ever happened to men. I look around the church, I look around the church and I see all these men with their babies We've got great men in the church, great fathers, men taking babies out and interacting with their kids. Things that didn't happen before the women's movement. It benefits everybody to focus on this equality. I can remember being 18. Did you guys have golden green balls where you were?

Heather Olson Beale [00:11:13] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Lori Gallagher [00:11:16] So, right. The boys work so hard to earn these Eagle Scouts. They work their tails off years and years of scouting and the girls just basically show up and wear a pretty dress and walk down this thing and. And all the girls were failing out of high school my year. They all wanted to be marine biologists and they were presented as these intelligent creatures. And I, you know, I was just rolling my eyes and I refused to do it. I felt I did not want to be a trophy walking down a stage for not achieving anything. So I remember my mother on the phone with her friend who was the young women's president. They're very good friends. And the young women's president was trying to convince my mother to put me in the golden green ball because I was, quote, such a good example. And I've never been prouder of my mom. Her on the phone saying, I am not. I've taught my daughter her whole life to do what she thinks is right and I am not going to influence her to do something that's not, that doesn't feel right to her. And so she stood up for me and I think, you know, that's what we can do for our girls is stand up for them, give them an equal playing field. The dads are huge. Dads are huge in how you treat your daughters. And.

Lee White [00:12:33] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Yeah?

Lee White [00:12:34] Laurie's message just inspired a memory that I think is worth sharing here. I was in the bishopric in my ward back in the early mid-80s and my daughters were just becoming of young women age. And when my oldest daughter turned 12, we recommended that we take all of the young kids in the ward up to Timpanogos Cave from the backside and do some. A little bit of mountain climbing. Teach the kids how to climb up the mountain in very careful, very experienced ways. We had to jump through enormous hoops to do this. And so we had to modify the activity. And we went to a waterfall on the backside of Timpanogos Cave. And while it was beautiful and really stunning to look at, as we were enjoying the scenery, we all of a sudden look up and There are about 20 people rappelling down the mountainside. And they're doing it in an absolutely expert way. They're well equipped, they're well toned and they are enjoying this activity immensely. They get to the bottom of it, and we think it's the Sierra Club or some other organization. And we asked them who they are and where they're from, and they're all women. And one of the older women, about 18 years old, said, we're in the Heber City 4th Ward, young women's Activity. And the bishop of the ward, who had really gone to great lengths to try to cut through bureaucratic tape to make this happen, but ran into all kinds of obstacles, just was speechless. But he went back and he wrote letters and he made a commitment. From that point on, I will always keep my advocacy hat on. And I'm not always going to believe the dogmatic response that is given to me as doctrine, because there's always a different way of looking at it. Gave my daughter, and because of that experience, her friends, a very different way of looking at their experience with the church and how they could drive some of this stuff themselves.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Good stuff.

Lori Gallagher [00:15:01] I love that.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Thank you.

Heather Olson Beale [00:15:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] All right. This has been very good. Any final words from the women about young women before I change the subject a bit? Are you guys good?

Lori Gallagher [00:15:13] I just wish that the women had the power to change the program. That's my wish. That's my dream, you know.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Well, they used to. They used to.

Lori Gallagher [00:15:25] Yeah. You know, it takes people on the local level doing, you know, asking forgiveness instead of permission.

Heather Olson Beale [00:15:32] Yeah, I was just going to say that I sort of wish. And this is me, you know, totally imposing my worldview. I wish that more of the women could see that it needed to be changed.

Lori Gallagher [00:15:47] Yes.

Heather Olson Beale [00:15:48] Because that's sometimes frustrating for me where I feel like, wow. I mean, I used to think, man, am I the only one that feels like this? I don't think that anymore. But, I mean, I can't count the number of conversations that I've had with people, women and men, where I've explained some of my issues around gender. And they're completely befuddled. They've never thought about it. They've never seen it that way. I mean, I talked to one of Brent's friends once who was saying, heather, I gotta be honest with you, you know, I've never thought of anything of any of this. And my wife has never mentioned a single one of these complaints or issues that you've raised, you know, and it's kind of like, how do you respond to that? Because then it ends up looking like you're just, you know, a naysayer. And I'm like, well, it's really not me. It's not only me, but. Yeah, I mean, I think for. Although I should just acknowledge that for a lot of women, obviously, the church really works and is a very friendly, affirming, affirming place. And sometimes the world, the world, I can't believe I just said that. Is disdainful of women who choose to have children and stay home and make that be their primary thing. And so. And in that regard, obviously, the church is a very welcoming place because that's really the thing that you're expected to do. So if that's something that you want, the church is really a beautiful organization that's very supportive of that. But if you're not, you're, you know, you're walking on eggshells.

Lori Gallagher [00:17:26] I guess this is where all of our parenting comes into play, to raise kids who aren't afraid to ask the questions and who aren't so, so conditioned that they accept that as normal. I mean, I feel really, we feel like the people stirring up trouble just by saying, hey, we don't want a man to babysit us on our young women activity. Right? We don't have to have a priesthood holder there all the time, that kind of thing. Hopefully the next generation won't feel bad to use their voices.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Well, I have a scary. Just a scary thought. Might be scary to some, and that's just that we have several thousand listeners to this podcast. And if people can take just Heather's story alone of what she did in primary and start applying it, you know, that's one in. Let's just say that's one in every ward in the U.S. i do believe that we can make a change over time. A constructive change. Not a disruptive one, but a constructive one. Maybe I'm foolish and I don't mean to get too caught up in what we're doing, but I guess I have to admit that there's a part of me that hopes that. That maybe we can each do our part to see something aggregate into something that paints the world that you guys are wishing for again. Heather, you're going to tell me I'm wishful thinking, right?

Lee White [00:18:45] Crazy.

Heather Olson Beale [00:18:46] Well, no. Well, it's good, you know, Don Quixote, right? You know, windmills.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] But I have.

Heather Olson Beale [00:18:55] I mean, I have to admit that I feel a little bit like that, too. For selfish reasons, perhaps. I mean, I don't. I don't think at all like, oh, because I did that any big changes, you know, any big change was wrought. But I do think, well, I'm 36, so I've got a lot of years, hopefully left on this planet and so do my kids. And so if I make it more amenable, the experience for me and for my kids, then that's enough. I don't really need to worry about, you know, any, anybody else. But I hope you know that was part of my thinking when I got up to bear my testimony on Sunday. That was in reaction to some talk that was going on about how temple weddings were the only ones that counted. And I was just sitting there thinking, wow, I can't believe I'm in this room that is actually full of a lot of people who did not get married in the temple and we're now someone very well meaning was trying to say that temple marriage is important, but also ended up saying that there's temple marriages and there's civil marriages and temple marriages are the only ones that count. And I just thought, I can't be in this room and let this go down. So that was part of my thinking. And I actually said to my husband, make sure the kids listen because I thought I need them to get another message besides that one. And so I did. I said, I'm a doubter. And I said, I get very nervous when we label people and we say that someone's inactive, someone's lds, someone's not lds, someone's partially active, part member family. I said, I feel like we pity people sometimes that are not members of our church because we feel like the thing that we have is so much better. And I said, and I just don't, I just don't believe that. I said, I think that God loves everyone and that there's good everywhere. And I try to look for that everywhere. So. And then when I sat down I thought, well, I feel better now. I don't know about anybody else in this room, but I turned that experience for myself at least anyway. And maybe for my husband, he was happy, but I don't know about anybody else, but I couldn't worry about that. For me, that made it a better experience.

Lori Gallagher [00:21:09] Well, that's what I was going to say. Maybe I should be more visionary, but at the end of the day I just want to put my head on my own pillow and feel good about it. You know what I said and what I didn't say. And that can bring a lot of peace

John Dehlin [00:21:25] to dream the impossible dream. Sorry, sorry everyone. Sorry now. Well said. I think you guys are much more practical and pragmatic and level headed and,

Lee White [00:21:36] and John, look at this. Just one comment from me on this. My mother is 82 years old. When she attended young women programs and church when she was growing up. There was only one option for Latter Day Saint raise a big family and be a faithful wife. That was fulfilling enough. The baby boomers started raising concerns about that. And the social revolution and the sexual revolution of the late 60s 70s had a transforming effect on the church as well. And it's small growth, but it's incremental. What we started getting in the late 70s and early 80s was you better get an education in case you don't get married. And my daughters growing up in, becoming teenagers in the late 80s, early 90s into the mid-90s got a different message. And while you still have some of the stereotypical messages that it's fulfilling enough to live an honorable life being a mother and a wife, they grew up feeling distinctly that that wasn't quite enough. To live the self actuated life even in the church with really good, very savvy, very intelligent and spiritual young women advisers. My daughters got the message that you want to be a complete person and maybe, just maybe, being a good wife and a mother will not fill you completely. That's progress.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] It is, yeah. Maybe in 30, 40 years it'll be the perfect experience for our great grandchildren.

Lee White [00:23:31] Yeah. And maybe, just maybe, someday we'll stop saying as an excuse, well, boys will be boys and the men run the church.

Heather Olson Beale [00:23:39] That's going to take longer than 40 years.

Lee White [00:23:44] We've been working on it a long time. How's that working for us?

Sensitive Topics in Youth Programs and Interviews

John Dehlin [00:23:48] Well, let's go ahead, Laura. Let's have a segue about boys being boys and talk about something that's probably a little bit uncomfortable. I want to talk about masturbation before we talk about sexuality, both between boys and girls. It's a sensitive topic and it's one that I'm not sure where the church stands today on it. I know the impression I got growing up, which is that masturbation is evil and dirty and horrible and you shouldn't do it and you're wicked nasty if you do. And you know, that's kind of to some extent today I still have that inkling in me because it's kind of how I was raised. But you know, as I understand progressives and forward thinking people, sometimes, you know, there's this view that that's just normal, that that's just what everyone does and no one admits it and it's healthy. And the only thing that's dangerous about masturbation is when it's excessive or when it's stigmatized. And that stigmatization can wreak all sorts of havoc in terms of guilt and making people live split lives and becoming deceitful and all sorts of horrible things that can come from making people feel horrible about it.

Lee White [00:25:08] Yeah. The other dangerous part is getting caught.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Oh, okay. Yeah, Well, I can imagine. So I haven't. You know, a lot of people ask me how I'm going to deal with this with my son. Does anybody want to talk about how they think? A good approach is to deal with this topic.

Lori Gallagher [00:25:33] I put it around those values, the sexuality, the substances, word of wisdom. All those things for me fall under the values. And for me the value is being smart. Right. So when you're choosing how to handle your body, who you're going to engage with, what you're going to drink, what you're not going to drink, make a smart decision. Like this is. You know, I had the talk with my son and he had a bishop's interview and it was brought up and we had to talk about it after. And, and I said, people are going to give you lots of suggest suggestions. It's a really normal thing and you're gonna have to be okay with whatever you decide to do or not do. And I left it at that. It's his body, it's his decision. And he can internalize that the way he needs to. I've got to step out of that one.

Heather Olson Beale [00:26:26] That raises another issue though, about the whole interviewing process.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Yes. Let's pause, let's finish the masturbation discussion in and of itself and then we'll go to the interviews because that's a separate topic, if that's okay.

Guest [00:26:40] Sorry, Heather.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] Sorry.

Heather Olson Beale [00:26:41] No, well, they are separate topics because I feel like I can say whatever I want to say, I can say. And I suppose, although usually we talk about it in terms of boys, that it would be also be an issue for girls. Although I will say that I can't recall a single conversation all the years that I was in young women about masturbation. I don't remember ever being told anything about that, whether good or. Well, certainly not good, but not bad. And I think that that's very. At least judging from my husband, the only person that I'm close enough to say, you know, hey, let's talk about masturbation.

Lee White [00:27:19] What did you.

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:19] What are your experiences in the church with that? That was very different. He said it was talked about a lot, but so I can say all I want. It's normal. Be smart with your body. I mean, Laurie, I think that's a very good message. But it, the issue does remain that they, they could get prodded about that.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] Sure.

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:39] And then, and then how do they deal with it? Do we tell them to be honest and then let the chips fall where they may, or do we tell. I mean, I don't know how to tell them.

Lori Gallagher [00:27:47] It's. It's their own business. And they're okay to tell any adult that's not your business. That. That's my take on it.

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:54] Okay.

Lori Gallagher [00:27:54] Personal things you own. They're personal, but yes. I don't know. I don't have the right to ask you if you're masturbating. Come on. And some man who barely knows you, I mean, yes, no. Spends one hour a week with you is gonna ask you that? I don't think so.

Heather Olson Beale [00:28:11] Right.

Lori Gallagher [00:28:12] And you book the girls because, you know, if we're gonna teach boys about it, you think the girls aren't doing it? I mean, come on.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] Okay, let's just dispel that myth right now. Do teenage girls do that?

Lori Gallagher [00:28:26] Hormones? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] But is it probably a lot less common?

Lori Gallagher [00:28:30] It's probably a lot less common, but yes, they do.

Guest [00:28:33] Okay.

Heather Olson Beale [00:28:34] I would just say, I don't know.

Lee White [00:28:36] It's on the increase.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] It's probably on the increase.

Lee White [00:28:40] Yeah. That's according to my daughter, the marriage and family therapist.

Lori Gallagher [00:28:44] Really?

Lee White [00:28:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Before we talk about interviews, Lee, do you have anything to add to Lori's wonderful advice about how to deal with that topic or do you think she nailed it? No problem.

Lee White [00:28:54] I think she nailed it.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] Okay.

Lee White [00:28:55] Yeah, it resonated with me. I like what she said.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Okay, so let's go on, Heather, the topic you brought up. And I'll just say that I've actually heard of 12 or 13 year old girls being asked by their bishop whether they masturbate when they didn't even know what the word meant. And that's an extreme example, but boys get it all the time. And we've just said that one of the things you can do is teach your children to tell them it's none of their business. But I don't want to let my 12 year old. I don't want to introduce that topic to my 12 year old necessarily. I don't know that 12 is the age where I want to have that discussion. What about how to handle those worthiness interviews other than telling your kid to tell the leader that it's none of their business? Do you guys have any approaches you've taken to deal with those?

Lee White [00:29:48] I have, yeah. Go ahead, Heather.

Heather Olson Beale [00:29:50] Well, I was just going to say we talked about this before Kennedy turned 12 and we sort of agreed that we were going to ask the bishopric or explain to the bishopric that it made us uncomfortable for her to be in a room with a closed door with them, even though they were, of course, perfectly nice, you know, people. I thought that would be an awkward conversation, but I'm just saying we had sort of agreed that we were going to do that. And she got called in to have one of those interviews before we even had an opportunity to have that conversation. And I really wasn't happy. And that's happened a couple of times. She actually also got set apart once, and they didn't tell us or ask us to be involved in that. And so part of me is like, well, okay, it's a volunteer organization. They probably just were trying to get it done. And the part of. Part of me was annoyed to have been sort of left out of that, even if it was, you know, just accidental. But it made her very uncomfortable. She told me that they didn't ask her about masturbation, if that. I mean, I interrupted you when you were talking about that, John. But if someone were to ask Kennedy that, a man were to ask her that behind closed doors, I would absolutely. That would be my undoing and the undoing of the first person that I ran into. I mean, that would just absolutely enrage me.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] Would there be testicles in a jar?

Lori Gallagher [00:31:11] I don't even know what there would be.

Heather Olson Beale [00:31:14] But she just told me after she said it made it uncomfortable. And it wasn't only the sexual. It wasn't only the sexual questions. She said that. And I don't even. I think it was for a temple. For a temple trip. But she didn't really like being asked what she believed about things either. And that's sort of just her personality. But I think she felt uncomfortable and she felt nervous and she felt sort of intimidated. So to me, it's a question that pertains not only just to questions of sexuality, but just of being in a room with an adult and it's someone who's in charge of you, and they're going to sign this piece of paper or not, according to whether you say the right answers. That. I think that just. That makes me very uncomfortable. So we have asked her to please if someone comes, because they seem to have this habit of just coming and grabbing them out of young women or Sunday school to do these interviews, right? And we've just asked her to please, if that happens, to just say, well, just a minute, I need to go get my mom or my dad. Now, it hasn't happened since we've told her that and she doesn't like that either because she knows that that's not what's usually done. So she's not really uncomfortable, you know, she's not really comfortable with that herself. So we're sort of in the middle of trying to negotiate that and it's very, it's very hard.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Laurie, you got any experience with this?

Lori Gallagher [00:32:31] Well, I've got this 14 year old son. He goes on the temple trips and he's so mature in so many ways. We, I just talk to him about it after, you know what they ask you. He seems to be able to handle himself just fine. I tell him, but it's so hard because you want to empower them that no adult right in a close. In a room with a closed door should have any power over them. But how do they not feel that? You know, he doesn't seem fazed by it at all. And I've asked him point blank and he's like, yeah, they talk about that, you know, and he kind of laughs about it and that's that. And so I feel like he's okay. I'm not overly concerned about that. There is probably a bigger dichotomy between a young girl sitting there with an older man than two boys sitting there in a room chatting it up.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] I'll just say that what we do is Margi or I always accompany our daughters in an interview. And it's, maybe it's, I don't know if it's uncomfortable for the bishopric. They know now to ask us before they ever pull anyone in to an interview. And one of us always accompanies and that's how we do it.

Heather Olson Beale [00:33:44] John, so did you, you must have approached the bishopric then and explained this to them.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] Yeah, we did.

Heather Olson Beale [00:33:49] We just said, yeah, what did you say? Because see, I felt like if we did that they would feel like we distrusted them, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Yeah. Well, I had to have this conversation just last week with our executive secretary. First of all, I never had to have it with the bishop or the bishopric. I had to have it with the executive secretary because he's the one who calls and says, hey, can we set up an appointment? And it was them that I just said something very candidly. I said, listen, this is going to be a little bit uncomfortable. I want you to know that I really respect and trust you guys. This isn't about any personal animosity, but I'm a little uncomfortable with our daughters being alone in a room with a man, even though I trust everybody. But sometimes Mistakes happen. And occasionally I've had. I've heard of young girls or young boys being asked questions that maybe weren't quite appropriate. And we just feel more comfortable being there. And somehow the word just got around in the war that we were weird that way. And our daughters are pretty cool with it because they don't want to be alone in a room with a grown man. You know, you're right. That's kind of creepy for them. Even though they don't like it when mom and dad are always a little bit different, that bugs them. But they've been able to be cool with this. And our bishopric has been really supportive.

Heather Olson Beale [00:35:01] Well, I have this idea that we could fall back on. I mean, the church definitely has made some moves in the last, I don't know, maybe decade, I think, in reaction to maybe some problems that have happened. Not necessarily in interviews, but definitely, like, you can't have a male primary teacher.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] What a great rule, right?

Heather Olson Beale [00:35:20] Yes. And so you're not. Or you're not. I think that there's a rule with scouting also. There's not just supposed to be one man that's there. So I have this idea in my head that I could sort of bring that up because then I'm sort of bolstering my argument with the church policy, which I shouldn't have to do. But again, that's sort of the framework that we're dealing with, that maybe it's just smart to err on the side, you know, on the side of caution and just, you know, be extra careful with our kids, like these other policies.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Well, Lee, I keep. Oh, go ahead, Laurie.

Lori Gallagher [00:35:49] I was just gonna say, I think, though, if we're gonna walk this, this non conventional Mormon path, we're gonna have to become okay with being that parent.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Right.

Lori Gallagher [00:36:00] One that. That's okay with saying what we believe and calling the bishop and saying, no, I'm not okay with this. And I love how, John, you always frame things in a way that doesn't attack people, doesn't threaten people, doesn't put anybody on the offensive. Right. We're all in here together. We all want the best thing for our kids. And totally fearless.

The Young Men's Program and Pornography Stigma

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Well, Lee, I keep asking you the question last, and I think you always get. Get the short end of the stick. So I'm going to ask you a question first. All right?

Lee White [00:36:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Are there any issues with the young men's program that we need to be conscious about, analogous to the ones that Laurie and Heather mentioned about the young women's program that come to mind for

Lee White [00:36:41] you oh, beyond the masturbation thing, that

John Dehlin [00:36:46] is really the only topic.

Lee White [00:36:49] No, it's Scouting. Scouting has been a major issue for the church. And I think if you have a scouting program attached to the church, to the ward, and I think most wards do, that is a major defining moment for most of the young men who grow up. It certainly was for my son. My son experienced, I think, pretty significant involvement with the church up until he was about 13 or 14. He went through the early Scouting program. He was a Cub Scout, he was a Webelos. But the minute he got to being a Boy Scout, it just didn't resonate with him. What he really liked was sports. And they kept making a direct link between priesthood development, young men development, personal development, and Scouting program. And if you were not involved in Scouting, then you were no longer a worthy priesthood holder, no longer a worthy human being. And he was getting lots and lots of messages connected to that. And, you know, we were giving him backing completely and 100%. And so I don't think he ever felt devalued or had diminished self image or self perception based on this. But it culminated in a member of the bishopric coming to him one time and said, look, you're not attending seminary, you're not attending your priesthood meetings, you're not going to scouting. It's going to compromise your ability to get into byu. And he just, he had no desire to become a cougar. And this, this member of the bishopric couldn't fathom that. And at that point, my son quit going to church. He just said, I give up. I don't feel that this is a good fit for me anymore.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] I mean, it's too bad for the church. That's the church.

Lee White [00:38:53] Yeah, it is. It is. Because he's a gifted leader and he's got so much to offer and he has great values.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] All right. Other stuff that we need to be aware of or thoughtful about regarding the young men's program, I mean, there's making sure that just like our girls don't get the message that they're lesser. You know, there's obviously the idea of making sure our boys don't get the idea that they're better.

Heather Olson Beale [00:39:28] Well, either that they don't get the idea that they're better. I worry about that. That seems like the most obvious conclusion in my very unobjective opinion. But. But they could also get the message that they're broken, that they're, you know, they needed the priesthood. You know, women don't need it because they're just naturally so Good. Whereas men are naturally bad. Therefore they needed this extra thing to help them because surely on their own they couldn't do anything worthwhile. So that's, that's the sort of the opposite message. But that's equally, equally worrisome that they're defective.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] Right, right.

Lori Gallagher [00:40:11] My experience with young men, because I've got a 14 year old, is, has been largely positive. He. He's the only boy his age in our ward and he goes and he enjoys it and he slacks big time on the scouting and we support that. And he passes the sacrament with his hair down his back and, and the board members call him sheepdog. His hair. And we all laugh about it. And I see him, you know, that's this typey, laid back kid and I see him, I offered, you know, I tried to buy him a blue shirt and he wants to wear a white shirt and he wants to wear a tie and he wants to serve people once a week by passing around a tray of bread. And, you know, that seems to have been the extent of it. So, so far so good. Except the main message seems to be that we have to fight, fight, fight against this horrible world. But he doesn't seem to be, I don't know, as affected.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Maybe your leadership trumps that.

Lori Gallagher [00:41:15] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] You're in Dan's leadership.

Lori Gallagher [00:41:18] Time will tell. He'll probably blame us years from now.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] All right, well, I'm going to just throw out one more elephant in the room that you guys may or may not be aware of, but I am, because I'm in the field of psychology. And that's the issue of pornography. You know, you can't have, not just a general conference, but a general conference session go by where pornography isn't denounced and decried. And I just have to imagine that in young men's. They've never allowed me to serve in young men's. I've never been called. But my guess is that pornography is mentioned there as well. And I just have to express my own concerns about one small aspect of that. My thesis and dissertation are on OCD and anxiety disorders, specifically as they relate to religious or moral upbringings. And I've dug into the literature a bit to understand intrusive thoughts. And what is it that creates an intrusive thought? These sort of thoughts that are uncontrollable, that make people feel like they're going crazy, crazy because they get these urges to stab somebody or jump off a building or they can't get sexual thoughts out of their mind. And one of the things that the literature seems to be very, very clear on, is that the worst way to get rid of a thought, the absolute worst way to get rid of a thought, and in fact, the way that you guarantee that the frequency of the thought will increase and increase not only in frequency but in severity, is to tell someone not to have the thought that is the most guaranteed way. So if I said to all of you right now, do not think of a chocolate donut. Whatever you do, do not think of a chocolate donut, I'm going to give you 30 seconds and I command you to do everything in your power to not think of a jelly donut. And in fact, if you think of a jelly donut, you might go to hell. A go.

Lori Gallagher [00:43:12] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:43:14] And I'll give all of you 15 seconds to just not think of a jelly donut or a chocolate donut. 10. 11. Okay. How many of you weren't able to do it? And this is just a silly scientifical experiment that illustrates a very important point, and that's that the extent to which we compulsively tell people to not look at porn and to not look at women scientifically seems to guarantee that they will and probably even increase the frequency and severity. Now, there may be people who are going to disagree with me, but I tend to feel like we're creating a double bind with our young men as we do this behavior. And it becomes a problem because then they're viewed as unworthy to go on missions and they feel all this guilt and self loathing if they happen to view pornography, which seems to be more and more common. And I just want to give my 2 cents on what the right way to deal with pornography is. And I think this might be controversial. I don't even know that I'm right. But what I can probably offer as someone who's trying to study these issues, is, number one, stigmas are likely to increase the problem, not lessen the problem. Guilt is likely to increase the severity of the problem, not lessen it. Obviously you're not going to teach your sons to love porn and to go after it. And you probably would even want to teach them about its dangers and its perniciousness. From what I think Laurie tried to advocate, which is sort of an intelligence and a smart, reasonable perspective. But I want to feel like we might consider advocating for the destigmatization of pornography to the extent that we're telling people not to do it in ways that's actually going to increase its use and increase the damage ultimately done to the souls of these Young men. Now please tell me I'm full of crack smoking crack. Please tell me I'm wrong, but I want to throw that out there and see if you guys have ideas, because I'm open.

Lee White [00:45:24] John, can I respond first on that one?

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Please.

Lee White [00:45:29] You may or may not know this, but back in the 50s, 60s and 70s, one of the questions they asked missionaries in their interviews before they went on missions, both bishop and stake president interviews was, have you ever had sex with a farm animal? I kid you not, no, I know

John Dehlin [00:45:50] I've never heard that.

Lee White [00:45:52] And so they asked me that question in August of 1970 when I was being interviewed to go on my mission to Japan. And I said, I'm sorry, I thought you. I thought I heard you say something. The bishop went right in the face and said, yeah, well we're supposed to ask this. I said, why? And he said, well, I don't know, but it's just part of what we're supposed to ask. And obviously you haven't. So let's move on to the next question. And it became a topic of conversation with the stake president who was as curious about it as I was. We had actually a fairly entertaining conversation about it. When I got back from my mission and I went into this same stake president to do my interview with him at the end of my mission, he said, by the way, that question that we had a chuckle over back In August of 1970, they've removed it. And I said, why? And he said, well, it's not only a stupid question, but here's the problem. They started experiencing an increased incident of 19 and 20 year old kids spending too much time with farm animals.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] Yeah, Idaho kids just don't have a chance.

Lee White [00:47:07] Yeah. And evidently this had been going on for quite some time, that they had been triggering thoughts that hadn't otherwise occurred to people when they would go in for their missionary interviews. So what resonated with me, John, is that whole notion of excess and going overboard being triggered by this scarcity mentality is a reality. I really think there's something to it. On the other issue of pornography and the evils of it, I'm reminded of what my friend experienced when he went on his mission back in the 70s. You went three days in the general headquarters of the church in Salt Lake and had three days of indoctrination and yes, a little bit of brainwashing. And they always brought up the question of the guys who had had premarital sex and had chronic problems with masturbation and were looking at pornographic materials to fuel Those pernicious evils. And one guy who had a psychology background stood up with my friend's group and said, if you feel like masturbating, just do it and don't obsess over it. And that was the last time he spoke before a missionary group. But to the point that I'm trying to make, I think there is something to the fact that if you keep driving this point home over and over and over again, you may lead people to the very evil that they're trying to avoid. Another friend in Salt Lake had a son who was prevented from going on a mission because he didn't fit within the six month window of having recently masturbated. And the stake president who pulled his opportunity from him was the very stake president that got arrested for soliciting sex and was the guy who headed up the pornography commission, the church and became so addicted to looking at pornography with this group, really looking at the evils of pornography, that he got on that slippery slope into a myriad of other kinds of deviant sexual behaviors.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] He was a lawyer for Kirtland and McConkey, the church's law firm.

Lee White [00:49:40] Yeah, I didn't want to say that.

John Dehlin [00:49:42] And a stake president.

Guest [00:49:43] Yep.

Lee White [00:49:43] Yep, stake president. Yeah, he was the stake president who prevented my friend's son from going on his mission.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] That's painful.

Heather Olson Beale [00:49:51] What's the six month thing?

John Dehlin [00:49:53] What it, you know, that's, I don't know, local policy or something they used to do. I don't know, something that you.

Lee White [00:50:02] I think it's still in place. If you masturbate, you're not deemed mission worthy.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] So you have to have a six month window.

Lee White [00:50:11] Yeah. They send the young man home and say, discipline yourself, read the scriptures daily, engage in pure thought and action and come back in six months and we'll re examine it. If you have not masturbated in six months, then will reconsider it.

Heather Olson Beale [00:50:30] Oh dear.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Yeah. Well, I'm hoping that goes the way of the farm animal sort of.

Lee White [00:50:35] John, you want to check, you may want to check that. I think that's still the standing. It may not be a policy, but it's clearly a procedure.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] I guarantee you there are mission presidents who let that slide.

Lori Gallagher [00:50:46] Yeah.

Lee White [00:50:46] Oh yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] So it's one of those things where there may.

Lee White [00:50:49] It also means that there are kids who bend the truth.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] Yeah, right.

Lee White [00:50:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Who just lie. So we're encouraging lying. Well, again, I'm not advocating for porn. I think porn is insidious, you know, and dangerous. But I just, I think most importantly for parents with boys. I think you need to watch out about the messages for their self worth and their evil, etc. And make sure that you know that you help let that not happen. So enough said.

Lori Gallagher [00:51:23] Amen.

Guest [00:51:26] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, Family news newsletter, or through your Word Bulletin and Word newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Missions and Whether to Encourage Them

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 146

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org. Okay, so here's one that is one of the most common missions, you know, for an unorthodox or semi believing member, probably the biggest problem, you know, that they face is this notion of one true church. Exclusive truth claims, we're the only path and everybody else is inferior. And that's pretty much what a mission's about. A mission is not about. See if this will help you. It's not about, hey, you know, join the social club. A mission is about everyone else's church is wrong. Our church is the one true church and you got to join. And I've tried to imagine if I could raise my son or daughter to be a progressive New order Mormon or whatever type of belief, you know, devout believer, thinker, and that by the age 19 or 21, they're going to be able to go on a mission and speak metaphorically and transcendently and still get along with the mission president and their colleagues, but also feel true to themselves. And I have no idea whether that's even freaking possible. But what about missions? I'll start with Heather.

Heather Olson Beale [00:01:29] Regarding whether we want them or don't want them to do that.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Yeah. And whether it's good or bad or possible or not possible.

Heather Olson Beale [00:01:36] I didn't serve a mission, so I don't have experience in that regard. I got married at the insane age of 19, so that was a non issue. My daughter did ask me recently though, had I been 21 and we could go down that path, that whole 19 versus 21, who has to, who doesn't, but we won't. Had I been 21, would I have wanted to? And I just said, you know, I kind of cringe. And I said, this sounds kind of bad, but I, but I don't think I would have wanted to. I think that would have been extremely difficult for me. And she just said, oh, I'm so glad you said that because I don't think I want to either. And I said, well, and that's okay for you, but for whatever reason, it's more okay for women to make that choice than it is for men. I don't care if my son, since currently that's. He would be the only one that that actual rule would apply to. I don't think I care if he does. I don't think I care if he doesn't. To me, I just hope that when he gets to be 19, he can do it if he wants to. And if he wants to, I think I'll be supportive. I mean, I think that there's enough good that can be had from that experience that I'd be okay supporting it. If he doesn't want to do it, I'll also support him. I think that would be. I think that is a very hard choice for people who do that because there is such a stigma associated with. But I will also say that when we went and had the ultrasound, when I was pregnant with him, we found out that it was a boy. We didn't want a boy. For whatever reason. We just thought we wanted three girls. So it was weird. But when we were driving home after that ultrasound, I said to Brent, I said, well, okay. Well, we thought we wanted three girls, but it was cool when you see the baby. And, I mean, that's an awesome experience, right? You feel better about it. And he said, I'm just sick thinking that he's going to have to serve a mission. And I was very surprised to hear that. That was, like, one of the first things that he thought. My husband served a mission. I don't think he would say that he regrets it, not the whole experience, but he would say that it was. He might actually. I don't know, that it was extremely difficult for him and very, very uncomfortable, often for him to be in that position that you're saying he was in Spain telling all these people for whom Catholicism is very real and very valuable, that they're wrong, and whatever thing that everyone that they know and their whole country has been doing is wrong and they need to do this. That was very, very hard for him to do. And so that just spoke to me of how powerful that experience is, whether for good or for bad, you know, for ill. That he, in that moment, as soon as he found out that he was going to have a son, just thought, oh, geez, I don't want him to feel like he has to do that.

Lori Gallagher [00:04:20] Yeah, Laurie, you know, I. It's important to me that, because I have two boys, it's important to me that they understand the gospel before they make that decision. Like the doctrine. They know the doctrine of the church. One of the reasons I keep them in their extended family, you know, if we didn't teach them and they didn't go on a mission, they wouldn't be able to explain why, you know, but they need to have that education. I want them to know real church history before they go. I want them to know, you know, warts and all the real church before they choose to go or not go and if after that they want to go and it's in their belief system and you know, if my 19 year old boys want to make the world a better place and they think going on a mission can do that, I'm going to create the space around that for them to go and you know, I'll send them care packages and support their success and all of that. Is it what I want? Do I? You know, honestly I'd rather have them sitting in an ashram in India meditating

Heather Olson Beale [00:05:28] with me, but

Lori Gallagher [00:05:31] I'd love to put enough space around them to have their own experiences, their own way of relating spiritually. I hope more than anything that they grow up with some sense of spirituality and connection to divine whatever that form that takes for them. I'm okay with Gotcha.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] That's good.

Lee White [00:05:54] Lee I had a profound life changing experience as a missionary in West Japan, but probably for different reasons than the church would want me to have experienced. I spent a year in Hiroshima and became an anti nuclear war activist while on my mission. And I had this tremendous experience of having an investigator who was a Zen Buddhist. And one time when I was teaching him one of the last lessons, he was meditating out in his backyard. And I observed an altered state of consciousness in this man that impressed me. And it was profoundly spiritual and moving. And when his wife let us in and we went into the home and sat and relaxed for 20, 30 minutes before he came in, we commented on what he was doing, his wife explained it. He came in and then talked to us a little bit about this and then said let's get involved in the scriptures because I'm really interested in some questions that I want to ask you about some of the things that happen in the Book of Mormon in the New Testament and quoted from Ecclesiastes about there is no new thing under the sun and how that synced up with Zen for him in regards to suffering and illusions and unattachment. And it was a rich experience for me. And six months later when I went and visited him, he still did his Zen meditation. And he told me about the branch president confronting him that you've got to make a choice between Zen and Mormonism. And he said no, I'm still seeing how this really complement one another and I don't want to change this. And the branch president said, well you shouldn't be doubting the church this way. And he said, oh, I'm not doubting, I'm just really doing what Joseph Smith did. And it had a profound influence on my life. I remembered that deeply as I had my kids. And from the moment they started singing, I hope they call me on a mission, I would talk with them about what my mission meant to me. But I said to them, and by no means do I wish that you would interpret from this that I have an expectation that you go on a mission. Because I and Maryland had no expectation that my four kids go on a mission. The church didn't impose an expectation on them. I wouldn't let the church do it. In spite of the fact that they sang the songs and had the conversations that almost created an expectation, they never got it. In spite of that, two daughters went on missions, one to Chile, and my youngest daughter, Amy, went to Japan and confronted in a fairly painful way this mandate that you teach the one true church. And she took it in a different direction. She spent Most of her 18 months there trying to help people who had disaffected or no longer felt part of the community come back in and fill a place in it if they wanted to do that.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] That's awesome. That's a great idea. Well, I'll just say that I loved my mission experience like no other. It's one of the most important things I've ever gone through. I hope my children will have the chance to do it if they want to, and if they don't, I hope we can brainstorm and come up with a comparable experience for them in some other format that gives them the same type of thing. That's what I'll say there. Well, you know, we've avoided one of the most important topics that we could ever talk about. And this is absolutely crazy. We haven't talked about how to deal with church history in our children. Can you believe that? It's insane that we've gotten all the way to mission, so we haven't talked about that. How do you deal with peep stones and polyandry and masonry and blacks with your children?

Discussing Church History With Children

Lori Gallagher [00:10:17] Honestly, I mean, I had a conversation with my 10 year old. This has been a few months ago. He was talking about Joseph Smith. And I just thought, you know, I've got to throw this stuff in there whenever possible. He was talking about Joseph Smith. We were having a great talk and I said he was a fun guy, you know, he did lots of stuff. We talked about how he had a temper and how he was really visionary. And I said, and did you know he had a lot of wives? And I said it just like that. Did you know he had a lot of wives? And he cocks his head. And he looked at me and he said, My 10 year old, what you're not. You're supposed to have one wife. And I said, yeah, aren't ya? And he cocks his head and he goes, the world is sure funny. He gets it. You know, he gets that. He's gonna know that Joseph wasn't perfect. And I'm not gonna hide anything from him, nor am I gonna feel like, teach him that the church is teaching us a lie. All we can do is teach him the truth. And you know, what my husband teaches me over and over is to use a sense of humor with them. A sense of humor, like, these guys are kind of nuts. Let's have a good discussion about bring them young, you know, and so they get a little more balance on the discussion. I don't know. Any other thoughts?

Heather Olson Beale [00:11:39] It's tough.

Lee White [00:11:44] I've tried to teach my kids how to see the full picture of a character like Joseph Smith, that I certainly wouldn't limit it to Joseph Smith, nor would I limit it to just human beings, beings who live imperfect lives and have imperfect experiences and model perhaps sometimes things that contradict their beliefs. But, you know, stay with Joseph Smith for a while. My kids bumped into some of the things that they felt the church hadn't necessarily hidden from them, but they didn't know about this stuff. And so when Marilyn was doing the manuscript for Mormon Enigma, the really good biography about Emma Smith, we took delight in looking at a reframing of how we view the personality and character of Joseph Smith and actually had humorous moments. The day after, Joseph Smith had a lengthy conversation with Emma about polygamy, and she was publicly and personally very unhappy with that. Joseph's diary had one entry the next day, spent the entire day in conversation with Emma. And my kids looked at that and said, you know, that's a reality. We understand that. We appreciate that. When my kids became adults and they started struggling with polygamy, which was the pivotal issue for them, for me, it was blacks in the priesthood, and it was untenable for me at one point. In fact, I really was filled with unsettling doubt for many, many years, until 1978. And even after that, my question never got answered. Did God change his mind? Or did the church just come to a realization, this is racist, we've got to change it? But to my point, we have this issue of polygamy. My kids are wrestling with it, and instead of saying, just ignore it and exercise good faith, which is what the church wants us to do, I gave them the Bachmann thesis said, read this. Let's have a conversation about it. Because I've come to a place of peace with this, even though I really have questions about the veracity of this commandment coming from God to Joseph Smith and. And, you know, they were the ones who challenged me. Dad, you're compartmentalizing. And you've told us that it probably isn't a healthy thing to compartmentalize. And I said, yep, I contradict myself. And therefore that's all you can conclude from that, is I contradict myself. I try to be as transparent as I can with my doubts. The things that I wrestle with when things become evident, that the history that the Church has presented seems to be in contradiction with what I have come to realize is fact. But I also want to go to other sources and make sure that I'm grounding the challenges that I'm experiencing with my own cognitive dissonance, with rational, intelligent human beings who have read the same material and come to different conclusions about it and still exercise faith.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] Hmm, Good stuff. Well, I'll just say my little two bit. And that's just that I think that by the age of 12 at the latest, there are certain things you just have to have told your kid. You have to tell your kid that the traditional version of the martyrdom just isn't the way it went down. And to do that, the only way to tell that story is to tell your kids that Joseph was practicing polygamy, that he was denying it, and that even Emma didn't know what was going on. In many instances, I think you have to tell them about blacks in the priesthood. I think you have to tell them about the way that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with the hat and the peep stones. I just. I think you're doing them a disservice to not let them know at some point pretty early on that it was kind of kooky how that went down. I think you have to tell them that there are serious questions about the Book of Mormon's literalness in terms of its historicity and it being a true sort of record, ancient record of ancient American inhabitants. I think that you have to denounce any of the correlations between dark skin and cursings of God, you know, is something that, well, not denounced. But I think you have to suggest that maybe those aren't true or that maybe you can't support those or whatever. You know, I mentioned black female priesthood, I'm sure, but I think that for the major things, you're just doing them a disservice if you send them out into the world not knowing those things. And so as Laurie started with very at the very beginning saying openness and honesty, I think you have to teach them those things. And in my experience, there'll be some dissonance, there'll be some confusion, but kids, you know, 12 and above can handle that. And it very much maps to what we have to do about Thomas Jefferson and what we have to do about Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. Most people don't know about Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe, but his private life is scandalous in many ways. And you know, just going down the line, you just don't have a powerful public figure. Franklin Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, Lynda B. Johnson, Bill Clinton, I mean, just name it and there's scandal. And so I think it's just an important part of a comprehensive approach to history where you teach the warts and the beauty simultaneously. We also teach the wonderful things about Joseph and Brigham Young, etc. But you got to do them both. That's my take.

Lori Gallagher [00:17:41] I think we agree with you, but what does a couple do? And I'm fortunate enough to where my spouse is in agreement with me. What if you're the non believer or the New Order Mormon and your spouse won't even discuss discuss those issues with you? What do you do? Those people are stuck. What do they do?

John Dehlin [00:18:00] And that is a beautiful. Well, I think that we're going to have a couple episodes dedicated to mixed faith marriages. I don't want to shut down the conversation, but I'll offer that as a first response. Any others want to respond? Okay, well, I'll just, I'll just. My, my quick, my quick response is that patience, go slowly, have heart to hearts with your believing spouse and say, look, this is in the Ensign. This is sold. You know, this stuff is in church publications. And let's do it in a loving way and in a gentle way, but try and be patient and enticing to your believing spouse to say, can we please try and give them a fuller picture? And it may even make the case to them that they don't want to raise their kid in a way to where the kid's going to feel betrayed and deceived later on. And I think that with love and patience and you can make that case to a believing spouse. And the believing spouse will buy it over time. If you manage your credit, as Heather likes to say, if you manage your capital or credit judiciously.

Spirituality, Mixed-Faith Families, and Personal Belief

Lori Gallagher [00:19:09] Yes. Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] How's that?

Lori Gallagher [00:19:13] Always comes back to love yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Absolutely. Okay, so I think it makes sense to spend a little bit of time talking about how to marry the Mormon spiritual tradition with the many other bounty of spiritual traditions that are out there. And you know, Lee, you've already talked about taking your kids to Jewish things and, you know, Catholic things and ecumenical things. Let me start with Laurie, because I think this is probably something close to Laurie's heart.

Lori Gallagher [00:19:46] You know, just this sense of curiosity is what I want to instill in my children. This great adventure of who or what God is, you know, and I don't want to give them the context for that because words alone don't even cover that. And you know, I love the story of the, of the moon and the finger pointing at the moon. Do we know this story?

John Dehlin [00:20:08] No, we don't.

Lee White [00:20:09] Yeah, yeah, it's great.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Tell it. That's right.

Lori Gallagher [00:20:11] There's a Buddhist story about, you know, the moon is. It's the dao, it's the dharma, it's the way, it's the truth. Right? That's what the moon represents. And so these were the two monks. I can't remember. Man's pointing at the moon, saying, look at the moon, look at the moon. And the other person sees the light on the man's finger and how beautiful his hand is in the moonlight, and he goes, oh, oh, it's so beautiful. But he's not really seeing the moon. The idea is that there's no words for what deep, true spirituality really is, for what God really is. Language cannot encompass it. So the best that we have with religion, with spirituality is a finger pointing at the moon. So, you know, can we point it in the best way we can? You know, can we give them a lot different shapes of fingers? I mean, I just feel like they need space, they need a lot of space. How dare I define that for them? Can I share a lot of rich stories and things that work for me, that literally work for me? What's going on in my mind? How do I still the craziness in my own mind? How can my body give me insight and healing and bring me to wholeness? Those are things I can teach them that I know. How can we teach them to love nature, all of these things? So for somebody who's lost, lost the Mormon faith and is maybe feeling lost, I would say what speaks to you? Where do you feel peaceful? Where do you feel connected to others? What brings you love and joy? That's what we should share with our children and a non believer, somebody who's lost their Faith should own that as just as valid as what their believing spouse is offering. And that's my $0.02 on that one.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] And we just make it clear that you sort of, I don't know, believing or practicing Buddhists, but you definitely resonate with Eastern teachings, right?

Lori Gallagher [00:22:24] Definitely. You know, it's. I love something that makes me feel comfortable about Mormonism is that I speak that language, right? I understand the language in the vernacular, but when I started to read the Buddhist texts and yoga, the yoga history, all of those. The yoga sutras, all of a sudden my mind was open in a way that it wasn't opening before. So I've had a sense of awakening that's happened with this new language and this new viewpoint. I want my children to have that same awakening in whatever language they understand, in whatever shape their hand and finger takes. And I want to give them as many opportunities as I can, you know, taking them to the Buddhist temple and the Hindu temple and to yoga class and to, you know, meditation centers, those things, and just talking kindly about other religions. I love that my kids come home from school and say, you know, why does Siddharth's mom wear a sheet? You know, let's talk about that. You know, all the different religions and all the different choices, I want them to speak a lot of languages that way.

Heather Olson Beale [00:23:34] You know.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Beautiful. Heather.

Heather Olson Beale [00:23:41] A couple things, I guess I feel like. Well, I don't feel like I'm a very spiritual person. I sort of. I listen to other people talk about that, whether from inside or from out, you know, from inside the church or from a different perspective and what that means for them. And I feel like I feel a little bit distant from that. And I don't feel, you know, like a broken toy or anything. I just sort of feel like for some people, there must be sort of a stronger pull, or maybe that means that other people nurture that pull more than I have. I don't know. So sometimes I feel like, though, maybe where the church leaves holes for me, I haven't done a very good job of trying to fill those in, maybe either for myself or for my kids. So we haven't really. Also, we have lived in places where there's not. I mean, we've lived in the south, where there's definitely less religious diversity than maybe there are in other places. I feel like the best that I've done, though, is to just kind of, like Lori was saying, just have conversations and to try to communicate the message to them that we aren't the only ones that are right, and that we shouldn't feel sorry for people, just to be aware that there are many people, in fact, you know, 99 point whatever percent of the planet that is not LDS. Many of those people. Most of those people are happy wherever they are. But I think that has to be done. I think that has to be done carefully. I'm an education professor, so I talk to my students all the time about differentiated instruction, which just basically means. I mean, and that's a really hard. I see this sort of metaphor. That's a hard thing for some of my students to understand, because what they know is that when they were in school just a few years ago, a teacher stood up at the front of the room and told them stuff, and they wrote it down, and sometimes they copied it, and then the teacher gave a test, and then they spit it all back. And if they spit it all back the way the teacher had told it to them, they get a good grade. And study after study after study has shown that despite what happens in teacher education programs, most people, when they get jobs as teachers, go back to whatever way that they were taught. So I kind of feel like, you know, trying to expose my students to this different idea or this idea that all students learn in different ways, that you can't stand up in front of the classroom and just lecture. You can't expect your students to all get it in the same method. You can't expect them to all demonstrate performance via the same type of assessment. That's very hard for them. But if you take that and then think about it in terms of religion, it kind of makes sense to me that. That God would also do that, that God would also have set up a way, or many ways, not just one way, many ways for us to communicate with him and about him, and that lots of different places and methods would resonate with different people. So my kids have asked me things about different religious practices, too. And we just try to say, you know, or. Kennedy came home not too long ago and said that they had talked in school about how drinking red wine, I think, was good for you. So she was kind of confused about that. So then we had a conversation about how lots of religions have different things that they are either supposed to eat or not supposed to. Not supposed to eat. And so we just. We just had a conversation about it. We had lots of conversations, I guess, at my house.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] That's good stuff. You're geeking education out on us, Heather.

Heather Olson Beale [00:27:07] I guess. Was that terrible?

John Dehlin [00:27:08] That's awesome. All right, Lee, I know you have some thoughts about this. Anything Else you want to add to what you said earlier?

Lee White [00:27:14] Just playing off of what Heather said about people have different learning styles, they have different ways of incorporating knowledge and wisdom that has come to them. One thing that is just so crystal clear to me is I really am responsible for my spirituality. I acknowledge I have a soul, I have a spirit. And just as I have to feed my body and exercise my muscles to keep my physical being in shape, I have to nurture and feed and tone my spirituality in order to keep it vibrant and healthy and moving my life in the direction where I want it to go. I'm not so much in charge of my religious life. I view my experience with Mormonism as powerful and influential and beneficial. And I use the church as a facilitating tool. And I've tried to instill that with my kids. And I recognize there are times that I become anxious because I'm questioning their degree of conformity. And in essence, I'm questioning my own degree of conformity. And in that confusion, I have to stay in the question long enough to say, okay, how am I dealing with how this religious experience is connected to my spirituality? And that I'm declaring I'm responsible for my spirituality. So I think, you know, one thing that I've really tried to underscore to my kids over and over again, get comfortable with ambiguity. Get comfortable with conflict, get comfortable with contradiction. Life is full of them. And yes, life isn't fair. But the best you can, if you groom that spirituality to an ever improving point, recognizing that perfection is not what you're trying to attain, you can overcome a lot. And you can also live your life leaning into that constant light that I believe God has made evident to us in abundant ways.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Hallelujah. That's good stuff.

Lee White [00:29:41] Well, don't quote me on it because I might be the devil. What do you think that will look like?

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Well, wow, we're actually coming near the end of our questions. Can you guys believe that?

Heather Olson Beale [00:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] Well, I've got a few more, though. Can you guys take a couple more?

Heather Olson Beale [00:30:06] I can.

Hopes, Fears, and Reflections on Raising Children

John Dehlin [00:30:07] All right, here we go. Let's deal with predictions for the future for a second. There are a couple predictions that I've heard as common, and I'm going to lump them all in so that we don't have to go around the horn two or three different times. The first prediction is the. You know, the one that Jeffrey Holland gave in a conference several times ago that, like, if you become this progressive, liberal, hippie Mormon, or if you become a semi believer or a non believer, that you're going to sow the seeds of your children's destruction and they're going to become adulterers and pedophiles. And he didn't say half of what I'm saying, but the general gist was one of fear that if you don't stand up and walk up to every jot and tittle, you know, that you are putting your children's health and well being in jeopardy. That's one fear that I think has been, it's fair to say, has been promulgated at times. Although I admit that I grossly mischaracterized what his speech was. But I think it's not too far off from the impression that people get from it. I'll just say that a second fear that people have is that it goes in the other direction. What if I'm this progressive hippie, you know, whatever, Mormon, but my kid becomes a dogmatic true believer, you know, conservative, and they think I'm lesser and they think that I am inferior? What to do then? And so there are all sorts of predictions or projections that are made. And I just think it'd be fun to go around the horn and talk about how we are thinking about those things, which ones we reject, which ones we think have validity, and, you know, how we want to speak to it. So I'm going to start with Heather this time.

Heather Olson Beale [00:31:58] Oh, I was thinking. I hope he starts with.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] I'm going to start with Laurie this time. And then we're.

Heather Olson Beale [00:32:05] Lori, do you want me to start? What?

Lori Gallagher [00:32:08] Are you ready? Go ahead.

Heather Olson Beale [00:32:09] That's fine. That's a hard. Gosh, that's a really hard question. I guess all I can say is what I hope, and that is I hope that I can be happy if my kids are happy. I mean, we've had lots of conversations with our kids about things that we don't care about. And we've told them, you know, basically Brent has actually told them that the only thing that they could do that will make it. I mean, he doesn't want them breaking laws. I mean, we don't want, you know, prison sentences. But he's told them before that if he ever catches wind that they were mean to somebody else at school, they're in big trouble. That's just a line in the sand for him. He basically has told them, you know, anything else, you know, you gotta come talk to us about it. So I just hope that if they. Whatever path they choose, that I can be okay with it, whether it's being more or less believing or more or less traditional. And I hope that they can get to a place that they can, you know, offer that same sort of support to us wherever we end up.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Nice.

Heather Olson Beale [00:33:21] Now, who knows if that's gonna happen, but we're being hopeful, right?

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Yep. Oh, yes. That's the theme of the day. Windmills. Windmills. We're all about windmills today.

Heather Olson Beale [00:33:33] I mean, I hope, I'm guessing that my parents won't. Won't ever hear this because they don't do very many Internet related things, but I feel like they would think that of me and that that's what. That that's what they would want also. So I hope that that extends in both directions.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] Beautiful. Let's go to Lee.

Lee White [00:33:58] I think fears about our place in the world, our place in the church, our place in the family, are triggered by a lack of information, a lack of understanding of how we function. I know when I become fearful of something, it's because I bought a story that may in fact not been grounded in reality. So I acknowledge there are things that trigger fear in me and I just have to try to deal with them as much as I possibly can. But hopefully in the context of religion and more importantly for me, spirituality, I can put those off fairly quickly and get back to my base of being, my reason for being, my angle of repose, if you will, which is I look at life from a place of abundance, not scarcity. And if I look at life from a place of abundance, I'm not worried about running out of time or money or love or care or concern about the people that matter most to me. If I'm working from a place of abundance, I may recognize fear, but I'm constantly motivated by a different standard, to live into the possibilities and to take risk and to constantly be considering. How can I be inspired by this message, by this person who loves me and wants me to live to a higher standard? Or more importantly, if God is speaking to me in a very direct way, inspiring me to act a certain way, to think a certain way, to feel a certain way, then I want to be ready to act on that in a way of abundance rather than, well, I'm going to do this because I fear God's punishment.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] Brilliant.

Lee White [00:35:58] Yeah, you guys are easier said than done.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] You guys are brilliant. All right, Laurie, bring us home on this one.

Lori Gallagher [00:36:06] Ah, it's just, isn't it? It's just second nature for parents to look at their children and every time they mess up in school, project them as homeless. Right. We have these huge projections and it's so second nature. I It's not real. It's not real. We have no idea what our children are going to end up being and, and wasting all that time and energy projecting into the future of what if. First of all, you have to let go of what you want for them. It's not about them. And it comes back to you. You know, they're only going to be as grounded and giving and stable as you are, right? So you've got to make peace with yourself. Get yourself in line so that. That you can manifest a strong, healthy, happy adult, your child to become an adult that's strong, healthy and happy. And if you're gonna take. Here's my suggestion. If you're gonna go into projection, right, into illusion, you might as well create one that's beautiful and help, right? So do you have like this. This beautiful picture of who your child is and what they could become? Might as well spend some time, you know, daydreaming on that one. And I think there's. There's this. There's this little Irish poem and it. I wish I could remember the whole thing. It says, there's a line in it and it says, may the wind always be at your back. And, you know, that's all I want to do for my kids. Can I be that positive little blowing at their back constantly? Just, I believe in you. I see the best in you. And when your fear from any religion starts to melt away, there's a whole well of love under there. Can we just take that love, that optimism? You know, Lee was really wise when he was talking about the abundance. Can we blow that at their backs and support them? And kids tend to live up to your expectations for them, so why not choose some good ones and some a beautiful picture of who they could become, you know?

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Well, I don't want to disempower what you guys have all said. I'll just swing back the other way and just say one thing, and that's that I counsel with people who have left the church all the time. And I'm telling you, they're not coming from hippie parents. They're coming from orthodox sort of hardcore parents. And so if you're trying to game where you think your kids are going to end up, chances are, like maybe you guys have said before, you might be disappointed because people just leave the church. I mean, two thirds of all the people who have left the church have left it. So, I mean, if you're trying to game that, I think you're going to have a hard time. I think you guys, what you guys have said is just so empowering and affirming and just wonderful. I'm going to. This has helped me so much. I can't even tell you guys. Just to hear you guys talk has been such a gift to me. All right, so I guess there's other things that we may have missed, and there are other things we might be able to say. I'm inclined to want to just give everyone a final chance to leave some parting thoughts. So with that, I guess, Lee, I've been making you go last too much, so I'm going to make you go first. Is that okay?

Lee White [00:39:42] I'm fine with that.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] All right, give it to us.

Lee White [00:39:50] In regards to this wonderful but very challenging responsibility of raising kids, I can't think of anything that I have enjoyed more in my entire life than raising kids, developing a relationship with them and my kids. My kids eavesdrop on conversations. I have friends ask me all the time, at what age did you enjoy your kids the most? And my kids laugh at me. I always end up saying, today. Today is when I enjoy my kids the very most. But it's challenging, isn't it? It's challenging because there are so many tough pressures that impose themselves on our relationships with our kids on a constant basis. And we would think that in an ideal world, the church would be this wonderful instrument, this haven of safety and peace that would complement every good thing that we could do to build courageous, bold, and dynamic human beings with our kids. But it doesn't always play out that way. So I go back to what I said a while back. I have never gone about having a relationship with my kids thinking that the end is to create good Latter Day Saints. If they end up being really, really terrific human beings with great definition as human beings and have great core values and that happens to include identity as a Mormon, then I think there's a value added there. But if the church ends up being something that is dogmatic and it gets in the way of their being and they end up being resentful or bitter about it, then I don't wish it upon them. I don't want them to experience it that way. And because that hasn't been my experience with the church, I'm confident that they'll continue to see the church as a tool, a complement to ways in which they can become outstanding, courageous, and dynamic human beings.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Thank you, Lee. Laurie.

Lori Gallagher [00:42:13] I guess I kind of take comfort in the fact of knowing that as a parent, I'm really going to screw up, and I'm okay with that. I'VE somehow made peace with the fact that it's not going to be perfect and they're going to be on the therapy couch about their poor mom. You know, that's fine. I think I just. As far as the Mormon aspect goes and being a non believer, I think I have to open my mind up enough to recognize that Mormonism is a viable path to God. And then I have to be okay with their choices. Right? At the end of the day, it comes down to loving those kids and connecting with them and having their best interest at heart. And part of that for us is having this mixed faith family and making it work for everybody, supporting everybody. So that's it for me. Just blowing some wind on their back, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:22] All right, Heather, bring us home.

Heather Olson Beale [00:43:24] Are you gonna bring us home?

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Nope, nope, I'm done.

Lori Gallagher [00:43:27] Oh.

Heather Olson Beale [00:43:31] I guess I just have to feel like I have come to the conclusion that. I mean, I have wondered before, you know, is there a place for me in the church? I'm unorthodox or I'm. You know, like I've said, there's very few things that I would say that I'm certain about, but I've come to the conclusion that. That there is and that I'm making one. I feel like I'm something of a square peg trying to cram myself into a round hole, and I'm. People are rubbing off some of my edges, and maybe some of those edges need to be rubbed, and I'm probably doing that to some other people, but I just feel like everybody probably is on. I mean, everybody is on their own path, and we need to have more tolerance, probably, towards other people and a greater recognition of those differences. And I hope to achieve that with my kids. Like I said, I hope that wherever they end up, that the primary message they get from us is that we'll love them and that they can always come home, regardless of what they've done or what they believe. One of my favorite primary songs is the song Children all over the World that has the different languages in it. That's why I like it, basically, because I like different languages. But it says in that song, I don't want to sing it. Our heavenly Father hears us he understands each tongue Our heavenly Father knows us he loves us, loves us, everyone. And every time we sing that song, I feel that love really powerfully, even though I don't really even know. I don't know that I could even describe what I think God is or what he looks like or whatever, but. But I feel something very powerful. And so in the end, that's just got to be okay. And it's got to be okay for me if my kids end up in that place or in a different place. So, yeah, maybe I'm hopeful to John.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Beautiful windmills, right?

Heather Olson Beale [00:45:25] That's right, windmills.

Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Well, Heather Olson, Laurie Gallagher and Lee White, I can't thank you enough for this magical two or three hours that we've just spent. I will renew my offer to all our listeners, anyone who makes it through the three hours. The ice cream is on me at Aggie Ice Cream in Logan, Utah, whenever you're in the area. But you guys are brilliant and I think if there is a God, it's evident by the fact that I chose you guys in this panel.

Lori Gallagher [00:45:56] Thanks, John.

Heather Olson Beale [00:45:57] Thanks, John. And Lori and Lee.

Lori Gallagher [00:46:00] Good to meet y'.

Lee White [00:46:01] All.

Lori Gallagher [00:46:02] Y', all.

Heather Olson Beale [00:46:04] You guys, too.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] All right. And Lee, thanks.

Lee White [00:46:09] Thank you. I had it on mute. It's nice to meet you, Heather and John and Laurie, if you're ever in Seattle, look us up. There's some great seafood places I'd love to take you to.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] And does that offer extend to all our listeners?

Lee White [00:46:23] Yeah, sure, why not?

John Dehlin [00:46:25] Alright, well, I'll just close by thanking everyone and encouraging you guys to go up to MormonStories.org check out the conversation there, add your comments or feedback. Maybe we'll try and post some links like to Laurie's wonderful letter and other things that I may have mentioned that I'm now forgetting. Maybe some poems or some songs. But please check us out and thanks so much for listening, you guys. Take care.

Heather Olson Beale [00:46:49] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward podcast bulletin and word newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an E. S K Y-E pixton.com thank you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.