Introduction to Polly and Justin Brown

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1230

Polly Brown [00:00:00] Sa. Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 22, 2019, almost Thanksgiving time, almost Turkey Day. We are here post Thrive. Very excited for the Thrive event that just happened last Sunday where over 1700 people filled the Salt palace and we had an amazing day celebrating healing and growth beyond Mormonism is a great event. Thanks everyone who came.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Mormon Stories has been cranking out a lot of content recently. We've got a lot more to cover, but if some of you remember, several months ago we interviewed Katie and Alan Mount from the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast. They have a podcast that's amazing that's dedicated to supporting Mormons in mixed faith marriages. We had them at the original Thrive event and they came on Mormon Stories to tell their stories and to talk about marriage on a tightrope and to talk about their tips on navigating a mixed faith marriage. When we did that, we also committed to our listeners and viewers that we would go ahead and do our own series on navigating a mixed faith marriage.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And this series is a little bit like the Losing the Lamanite series or the Opiate Addiction series or the Interview with Bishop series where instead of doing these long, epic eight hour interviews like we just did with RFM or others, the goal is to jump right into the issue at hand. Maybe they're briefer, you know, one to two hour interviews. Maybe they don't go into total depth of the full story. But it's for people who are in a mixed faith marriage who want to get five or six examples of how other couples have done it, how they've done it successfully. That's what we're doing. So you can expect a shorter interview today, couple hours, and we're going to be focusing on the story of just Justin and Pauli Brown who are here with us in studio today.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Now, now I should warn people, Justin and Holly were interviewed on Marriage in a Tightrope podcast. We have no problem re interviewing people that other podcasts have interviewed. Although I can't take credit for discovering Justin and Polly first because they originally came to a Mormon Stories retreat and that's where I met them and they had a. I think they had a good experience. We sure loved having them and that's how I met them. So Alan and Katie, as awesome as you are, I discovered them first.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] But also I just want to quickly mention that we are starting up our Mormon Stories retreats and workshops again and we're going to be doing one in St. George just in a couple weeks. And in addition to having a great weekend, I think it's the 6th through the 8th of December, but check the calendar.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] But it's going to be an amazing retreat for people in faith crisis, mixed faith marriages, healthy sexuality, mental health, all the great stuff that we do. Please go to MormonStories.org events or MormonFaithCrisis.com events. You can find the St. George event and sign up. We have some underwriters who are funding the event.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] So if you can afford the event, just come pay and come. If you can't afford the event or if you just want to have fun, we have an underwriter who is going to subsidize anyone's registration fees. We'll ask you to pay lunch or whatever you could afford, but don't not come because of financial reasons. The underwriter is going to subsidize you. We're also going to be doing caravans in our vans, kind of karaoke vans from Salt Lake to St. George and back, leaving on Friday, coming back on Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] So we'll have a blast traveling there so you can get transportation taken care of. And we have a few donors who have offered their houses to give people free lodging. So there's literally no reason to not come unless you have obligations. But financially we can cover your lodging, we can cover your registration fees and transportation as long as you can bring yourself and your vulnerability and your willingness to work. And of course, for anyone who can afford any of those things, we really appreciate those who can pay because that pays for the organizers who are organizing this event. So anyway, come to the St. George retreat in a couple weeks, early December, I think it's the 6th to 8th ish.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] We'll also be presenting at the at the St. George or the Southern Utah Post Mormon Group that Sunday. That should be fun as well. So check it out. Please join us again mormonstories.org events or mormonfaithcrisis.com events and message us if you have any trouble with that. Okay?

John Dehlin [00:05:35] So without any further ado, we are so thrilled to have with us today on Mormon Stories a couple that I've wanted to interview for some time. The couple is Polly and Justin Brown and they are here today to talk about how they have navigated their mixed faith marriage. And they are still in a mixed faith marriage as probably everyone is at some level because we all have different beliefs about different things. But this isn't one of those mixed faith marriages where, you know, the believer had to lose all their beliefs for the couple to actually get along. Who knows what'll happen in the future, but for now, they're still in a mixed faith marriage and they're finding a way to make it work.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] So our intention with this series is to just give people hope, to give people tips and tricks, and to help people learn how, if they're in that tough situation or if they will be someday, how to navigate it. So that's our intent. That's why we're doing this. Justin and Polly, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Polly Brown [00:06:38] Thank you.

Justin Brown [00:06:40] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] How does it. How was that introduction? Did I miss anything?

Polly Brown [00:06:43] No, that was fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Perfect. Okay.

Polly Brown [00:06:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] All right. Anything you guys want to start with before we dig in?

Polly Brown [00:06:53] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] I mean, do you get anything wrong?

Justin Brown [00:06:55] No, I think you got it.

Polly Brown [00:06:56] All right. Okay.

Justin Brown [00:06:57] I'm assuming we're on camera. I have no idea how this works.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] You're live on the Internet.

Polly Brown [00:07:01] I'm happy it's not an eight hour thing.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] I will say you were ready for whatever, because that's how I roll.

Polly Brown [00:07:06] I think I was ready. Yeah. I'm ready for whatever. We're ready.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Okay. So we are going to. We are going to tell you a brief story of kind of your. Your years in the church and how you met each other and how you got married and kind of what the foundations were for your marriage, what the expectations were. And then we'll talk about when and how things changed and we'll dig deep on kind of what that was like, how hard it was, how you navigated it.

Polly Brown [00:07:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] What things were useful. And then kind of how. Where you've. Where you've landed up together.

Polly Brown [00:07:42] Love it.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] And where you're going to go from here.

Justin Brown [00:07:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] And I'll. I'll talk, you know, I'll jump in when need to, when I need to. But I'm also happy to just let you guys roll.

Polly Brown [00:07:51] All right.

Justin Brown [00:07:52] Okay.

Polly Brown [00:07:52] Yeah, it's his fault. No, just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] It's all Justin's fault.

Justin Brown [00:07:55] Totally my fault.

Polly Brown [00:07:56] You can go first.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Who wants to go first?

Polly Brown [00:07:58] Yeah.

Justin's Mormon Upbringing and Mission

John Dehlin [00:07:58] So, like, tell us just your quick.

Justin Brown [00:08:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] Your quick Mormon background.

Justin Brown [00:08:01] Well, I'm definitely a Mormon. Born and raised here in Salt Lake City, Cottonwood Heights. That's where I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Is that the high school.

Justin Brown [00:08:13] Went to Brighton High School. Yep. Went to the University of Utah. We've been here our whole lives. I went on a mission. I think it's. I think it's important to say, or it's worth saying that I grew up in a family that was active. My dad was in the bishopric at one time, but they were not terribly orthodox people.

Justin Brown [00:08:33] My mom and dad both came. My mom was divorced early in life. My dad had been married once before. That's not terribly unusual. But they both were drinkers when they were younger. I have these stories that my dad smoked way back in the day, and then on Sundays, we went to church almost every Sunday, unless we were camping. And my family camped a lot. So my dad loved to camp. So we didn't. We weren't a terribly orthodox LDS family, but we were active. Like I said, there was a period where my dad was kind of common

John Dehlin [00:09:13] in Utah, where there are families that are doing the Mormon thing. But not super intense.

Polly Brown [00:09:18] I feel like it.

Justin Brown [00:09:18] I think so.

Polly Brown [00:09:19] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:09:19] I'm always surprised when I come across people who were super intense because we just weren't that way. You know, we didn't have to stay in our Sunday clothes, but I've heard of people who did.

Polly Brown [00:09:28] Yeah, we didn't go to church when we were on vacation.

Justin Brown [00:09:31] Yeah, no, my dad didn't. We didn't do that. So Paulie and I did that a couple times in our early. The early part of our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

Justin Brown [00:09:40] Yeah, we're getting ahead there.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] So a Mormon family, that wasn't super intense.

Justin Brown [00:09:44] Yeah, they weren't super intense. That's a good way to say it. I went on a mission. I was a little bit older when I went on a mission. I. When I got my first job.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] You did the seminary thing?

Justin Brown [00:09:56] I did seminary, but When I was 16, I started working, and I had to work on a Sunday and figured out that my parents wouldn't make me go to church if I didn't want to, even though they were going. And so I stopped going to church when I was about 16, right after I turned 16. And I didn't really. I was totally inactive, basically, until I was a little old, a little over 20. And then I had kind of what I. What I used to call a spiritual experience.

John Dehlin [00:10:27] Tell us about that.

Justin Brown [00:10:29] Well, I was 20. I mean, the way I. The way I frame this story now is different than even. Than I would have a few years ago.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] How would you have framed it after you became Orthodox back then?

Justin Brown [00:10:40] Yeah, that I was lost and that I was struggling and that I needed guidance and help. And I think that's still probably fair.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Did life get messy when you weren't active in the church?

Justin Brown [00:10:50] No, no. I was way into snowboarding growing up.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] I just went snowboarding this morning.

Justin Brown [00:10:55] Well, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Wow.

Justin Brown [00:10:57] Good for you. That's where I would that's where he goes.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] Yeah, he's Mr. Burton who passed away recently.

Justin Brown [00:11:01] Yeah, just two days ago or yesterday. Yeah, he passed away. It's a bummer. So, yeah, I loved snowboarding. So I would just go snowboarding on Sundays with all my friends and that was way easier and way better. But I kind of had that moment when I was a little over 20. A lot of my friends had gone on missions. A lot of my friends were still preparing to go on missions.

Justin Brown [00:11:24] We were a pretty tight knit group of kids, still are. And there were quite a few who weren't going or who weren't members. And I was falling into that crowd and I just kind of felt lost and wasn't sure. I wasn't really reaching what I thought was, was my full potential. I wasn't going to college seriously. I was just kind of getting, you know, I was spending a lot of time snowboarding and just playing around. And I look at that now and I say, well, yeah, that's what 20 year old kids do. But back then I was conditioned, I think, to believe that that was a, that that was a bad thing, that I was on a bad path or a dark road or whatever you want to call it.

Justin Brown [00:12:02] And so, so I did what Mormon kids do in those situations. I said a prayer and I was not much of a prayer. I hadn't, like I said, I'd been inactive most of my teenage years and I never really had a terribly strong testimony of the church or anything like that. But I said a prayer and I did have what I think we could call a spiritual experience or an epiphany.

Justin Brown [00:12:27] And I kind of came to the conclusion that I needed to go on a mission. That was the answer, if you want to call it that, that I got. Again, I don't want to be negative about that experience. I think it was a wonderful experience for me, but I do now look at it as something that I was conditioned in some senses to experience. Anyway, said a prayer, got an answer and decided that I was going to go on a mission. So I did. About a year later I went on a mission and I went to the Philippines, to the Tacloban mission. Loved it. Still to this day.

Justin Brown [00:13:02] Loved, loved my mission. I loved learning. I got to learn a couple languages. The people were amazing, the place was amazing. It was a very third world, rural, poor part of the Philippines. And I mean the Philippines is poor in general, but it was especially poor. And that was super eye opening for me.

Justin Brown [00:13:24] I wouldn't trade that experience. It was so fun and it was so valuable for me. So I did that. Gained a very strong testimony while I was there of the church, but couldn't really get my hands on anything to read other than this, you know, the standard scriptures or what. I don't remember what all the general works books were, those red books that we could read. Like it was like Jesus, Jesus is the Christ. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Which I read Marvel's Working a Wonder, Miracle of Forgiveness.

Justin Brown [00:13:54] I read all that stuff.

Polly Brown [00:13:55] James Talmage, basically, John, people just read Miracle of Forgiveness.

Justin Brown [00:13:58] I read it. It was awful. But it's. I mean, yeah, so I read all those books. I love reading. I. I came home and just wanted to keep reading and wanted to learn so much more about the church because in the mission especially, I don't know what missions are like stateside or in fully developed countries, but in the Philippines we didn't have that many options, especially back then. We'd get. We'd get like the. The ensign with the conference talks a long while after they happened, you know. So anyway, I read a ton while I was there, but it was only the approved stuff. And then when I got home, I just could not get my hands on enough stuff. Started reading all the other books that I could find. Entered some institute classes up at the U, where I was going to school and just really studied Mormonism for several years.

Polly Brown [00:14:50] Well, you got married too?

Justin Brown [00:14:51] Yes, yes, I did get married. We got married quick, like six months after I got home. And we knew each other before I left and we wrote throughout my mission. We were married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Okay, wait, we'll. We'll pause on that part.

Justin Brown [00:15:04] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] So. So you made it, you know, non intense Mormon upbringing. Served, but had your awakening. Served the mission, came home and you, by the time you got home, you had a, what, firm testimony.

Justin Brown [00:15:19] Yeah, all in at that point.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] All in at that point.

Justin Brown [00:15:22] All in. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Had you like been a zone leader? Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:15:25] Oh, that's. I mean, yeah. Yeah. You do all that stuff.

Polly Brown [00:15:28] Okay.

Justin Brown [00:15:28] Yeah, I was all in. Served a really cool mission. I loved it, worked really hard.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] And you were at the U. I

Justin Brown [00:15:34] went to the U. I ended up getting a degree in English and another degree in political science. Yeah, and that's. Paulie pointed this out actually at your Mormon Stories conference that we went to. That's probably a year and a half ago now that we did that. She mentioned this, that she said that I have been going through this faith transition, if we want to call it that.

Justin Brown [00:15:58] Forever is the way you described it. Since you'd know, since we got Married. And I think what. What that refers to is that I was always reading and I was getting my hands on all sorts of books approved. You know, LDS church approved books and not. And I had an institute professor up at the U who was so awesome, and he was not afraid to talk about some of the unsavory, historical, and doctrinal issues. That's where I first learned about Joseph Smith's polygamy and the peep stones and all these things.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] Okay.

Justin Brown [00:16:32] A lot of these things.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] We'll come back to that.

Justin Brown [00:16:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Okay, cool.

Justin Brown [00:16:36] So, yeah, that was me until then. We got married.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Okay.

Justin Brown [00:16:40] Yeah.

Polly's Background and Their Courtship

John Dehlin [00:16:40] So, Paulie, let's do your quick story. I want to hear your version of the courtship.

Polly Brown [00:16:45] Oh, okay. All right. My life's a little boring. I didn't snowboard.

Justin Brown [00:16:49] Whatever.

Polly Brown [00:16:50] I grew up here in Utah, went to Skyline, grew up in Sandy. Fantastic family. I feel like we were very active, but also not just meaning.

Justin Brown [00:17:07] Folks aren't uptight.

Polly Brown [00:17:08] Yeah, but they both have strong testimonies. We went to church, but if we were on vacation, we didn't go. Kind of like that, you know? But my brothers went on missions. Kind of what you did. I have one sister that's not active at all out of the six kids. But everyone else is very active. Great childhood, great ward, great family, everything.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] Would you say you had a testimony in high school by the time you reached high school?

Polly Brown [00:17:37] Yeah, I would. Yep. I never had a desire to go on a mission, but back then it

John Dehlin [00:17:44] wasn't as expected, right?

Polly Brown [00:17:46] For girls? Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, I just. The church was comfortable place, you know, Like, I always. Never had any issues with bishops or anything like that. It was just kind of what you did, and it felt right and it felt good. It was where you wanted to be. I guess. Yeah. So I always active, went to. Did a little bit of the community college, and then I started assisting an endodontist. So that's what I did for years. And then met Justin. See, I'm boring.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] No, I like it.

Justin Brown [00:18:30] It's all good.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Stop it.

Polly Brown [00:18:31] And then, yeah, Justin and I met and did the quick Mormon. Typical get married fast.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] So let's ask you first, Paulie, when you were thinking about your eternal companion, What? Tell us, like, who you were looking for and what you expected, how you expected. You envisioned your life kind of playing out.

Polly Brown [00:18:57] Okay. And that's interesting because I'm sure I have two or three lists from when you're in young women's. Write down what you're looking for, what you want, and it's returned missionary. Someone that holds the priesthood. Yep. Someone that's gonna provide good father. Things like that. That's what you look for.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] And your life is gonna be like what?

Polly Brown [00:19:21] Like I would. We'd get married in the temple and I would stay home and raise our kids. And it's all good. We have four kids.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] But is that what you wanted? You wanted.

Polly Brown [00:19:34] I think I did want four.

John Dehlin [00:19:35] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:19:35] Really?

Polly Brown [00:19:36] Yeah. Okay. Did you want one?

Justin Brown [00:19:38] No, I would think. I always thought three.

Polly Brown [00:19:41] Yeah, we had three and felt like we weren't done, but I get really sick when I'm pregnant. So we adopted our fourth and it was awesome. Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:19:51] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:19:52] So.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] But you wanted, at the time, you wanted four kids.

Polly Brown [00:19:55] Four kids, yeah. And six was too much. Four felt like a safe number.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] And were you. Did you kind of think of yourself as more into the church than your parents? Were you like, I'm going to be intense about Buddhism or were you.

Polly Brown [00:20:08] No, know, like, never thought of myself. Getting up early with the kids and reading scriptures, like that's a lot. But definitely going to church every Sunday, taking the kids to primary activities.

Justin Brown [00:20:20] Sure.

Polly Brown [00:20:20] I taught nursery for six years. My heavens. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Okay.

Polly Brown [00:20:27] And I definitely. Even though I think you're raised in the church to, you know, you're a stay at home mom, that's your role, that's what you do. But that truly is what I wanted to do. You know, I could have worked, I could have kept going with my career, but I. Yeah, you didn't. I don't.

Justin Brown [00:20:44] I would say you didn't want to do that because the church told you to. I think that's just.

Polly Brown [00:20:47] That's something I would have chosen to do anyway.

Justin Brown [00:20:49] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:20:50] Yeah. So.

Early Marriage and Expectations

John Dehlin [00:20:52] And what did you, what did you see in Justin that made you feel like he checked the boxes and.

Polly Brown [00:21:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] What was it a matter of him checking the boxes or was it like you, you like, became super best friends?

Justin Brown [00:21:07] This is interesting.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] We're kind of thought about it this way.

Justin Brown [00:21:09] Her mom likes me. That's what it was really about. Cause she does. I love your mom. She's so awesome.

Polly Brown [00:21:15] You know what? I think I was just drawn to Justin, who he is as a person and just himself. But he happened to check all the boxes, so that was probably a win. Win. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] And this is important. This is the coach in me coming out a little bit. Some people marry their best friend, other people marry the church and the person that they marry just kind of fits, you know, like I say, checks the box.

Justin Brown [00:21:42] It's one of those molds. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] And. And that those, you know, let's just say that's a continuum. And depending on where you fall in, the continuum is probably going to predict a lot about how. How things go when one of you loses their faith. Because most often when you marry, you're just total best friend. If they lose their faith, it's just like, well, that's no big deal. You're my best friend. So, like, it's hard. But yeah, I'm not giving up on you.

Polly Brown [00:22:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] But if really you married someone who was a square in a square slot that you expected them to fit in, and you really did marry, sort of your dreams about your church experience and just a ball of flesh that kind of fit in your dreams, then you're gonna have a much harder time if they leave the church.

Polly Brown [00:22:29] Totally. And luckily, I guess I married you for you. And you happen to have everything else that I thought I needed. Is that fair?

Justin Brown [00:22:40] Yeah, I think so.

Polly Brown [00:22:40] But also, no matter what, like when this faith thing happened, like, it shakes you and you think, wait a minute.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Okay, so. So let's see. So Justin, Justin did fit the boxes for you, but you also liked him, liked his personality, thought he was a good fit.

Polly Brown [00:23:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] Okay, so to what extent when you guys started dating and started thinking about marriage, to what extent did you guys like talk explicitly about what the expectations were church wise or was it just sort of like assumed? Does that make sense?

Polly Brown [00:23:22] I feel like it was just assumed.

Justin Brown [00:23:23] Just assumed?

John Dehlin [00:23:24] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:23:24] Yeah, we met before his mission and then he left on his mission and we wrote really well, but I still dated other people. I don't think I was waiting for him, but I was hoping to date you when you came back.

Justin Brown [00:23:38] Sure.

Polly Brown [00:23:38] And then when he came back, we just picked right back up where we left off. It was awesome. Yeah. And our dating was just easy. We lucked out. Like, there wasn't any breaking up, getting back together, it just. We just fit.

Justin Brown [00:23:51] Yeah, it was, I think so easy.

Polly Brown [00:23:53] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:23:53] We had to do all of our fighting after we got married.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Well, welcome to marriage. Welcome to marriage. You think it's gonna be any different for you than the rest of us?

Justin Brown [00:24:03] Probably not.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Work.

Polly Brown [00:24:05] Eh? Well, I want to know what his answer is to that question.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin Brown [00:24:10] No, I don't. I don't think that.

Polly Brown [00:24:12] Did you think she wants kids? Check.

Justin Brown [00:24:14] No, I mean, I think that we. I mean, we talked about that. We talked about. I think we talked about some of the big issues, but again, my parents weren't terribly uptight about the church, and I don't think yours were Either. I think your family was. Is a little more active or adhering than. Than mine, but I don't know. I think we both just kind of assumed. Yeah, she's lds. I'm lds. We both knew that we wanted to get married in the temple. We both knew that we wanted to have kids. To me, that was really all that. That. That actually is all that really mattered, you know, but getting married in the temple was important to me. I can say that I came home from the mission pretty staunchly observant about some things like that.

Polly Brown [00:24:58] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:24:58] So.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] And you both wanted to be temple worthy and all that?

Justin Brown [00:25:01] Yeah, for sure. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Were there. Were there any signs, you know, during the engagement or, you know, in those early years of marriage where either of you wondered if the other was really fully into the church or whether your plan had some cracks in it or. Or not for me? Or did you start off just total gung ho?

Polly Brown [00:25:24] I think we were gung ho. And he was like, right off his mission. So he was still in that missionary bubble. He was like, pretty weird, pretty Mormon kid. Yeah. So, yeah, no question.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Okay.

Justin Brown [00:25:36] And we'd both lived. We'd both lived outside of the church a little bit. Like, we both partied before when we were in high school, I. You know, so we weren't even in our own marriage. I don't think we were ever terribly orthodox. We went to church often and we both held callings, but we didn't. We would go out to eat on Sunday or we would go to the

Polly Brown [00:25:56] movies on Sunday, but we also would go to the temple once a week sometimes.

Justin Brown [00:26:00] Yeah. Yeah, we were pretty.

Polly Brown [00:26:01] I guess we had our things.

Justin Brown [00:26:03] Yeah, for a few years. We were very in.

Polly Brown [00:26:05] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:26:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Okay. So you got married at the U. Is that right? Were you at the U?

Justin Brown [00:26:14] I was at the U.

Polly Brown [00:26:15] Got married in the Salt Lake Temple.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] And you were still an endodontist?

Polly Brown [00:26:19] Yes. Assisting root canals and surgeries and all that fun yucky stuff.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] Is that better?

Justin Brown [00:26:28] That's good.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] Okay, cool. So.

Polly Brown [00:26:31] Thank you.

Justin's Growing Doubts About the Church

John Dehlin [00:26:32] So what. So how many years was it just kind of like the orthodox Mormon thing versus when did the cracks start showing up? Or is there anything important to your story that you want to tell prior to when the cracks started emerging?

Polly Brown [00:26:49] Well, got married, waited four years, and then started our family. And,

Justin Brown [00:26:56] yeah, we had Ellie when we were.

Polly Brown [00:26:58] We did institute classes together.

Justin Brown [00:27:01] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:27:01] And this institute teacher was awesome. He would talk about women in the priesthood and he would bring up big things.

Justin Brown [00:27:09] John Peterson. That's his name.

Polly Brown [00:27:10] He's so awesome that I think we were able to talk about at that time. And nothing came too big of a shock to me when he started really going into the church history and things like that. I feel like that helped because this was pre kid.

Justin Brown [00:27:25] Remember we went to a documentary about the Mountain Meadows massacre. I mean we were like two years married when we didn't even have kids yet.

Polly Brown [00:27:33] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:27:33] And we just kind of came out of a lot of those experiences. They were kind of faith affirming experiences.

Polly Brown [00:27:38] Right.

Justin Brown [00:27:38] They weren't really tearing down our faith and some of it was shocking and we were doing some mental gymnastics to make it work, I think. But we did. Yeah, we stayed in it. We. I, I think at least this is how I felt is that that wasn't really why I was in the church. You know, those things didn't really matter that much to me, but there came a time when they definitely did.

Polly Brown [00:28:00] Yeah. So Justin kept reading. I don't know. What were you reading? Different things.

Justin Brown [00:28:05] And I read a rough stone rolling a long time ago. During that period.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] Okay. You were married what year? About.

Polly Brown [00:28:11] We were married in 0101.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] Okay. So Roughstone only came out in like 2004, 2005.

Polly Brown [00:28:17] So.

Justin Brown [00:28:18] And I was, I read it right when it came out. Right after it came out. Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:28:21] And I don't even remember you talking to me about it. I never read it.

Justin Brown [00:28:24] Yeah, we talked a little bit, but not much.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] So there's kind of a mentality back in the day when you're Mormon where it's like, it's cool if you're a Mormon. And I don't mean to make this a male thing. I can't speak for females, but for males, you know, there's a type of missionary or a type of Mormon guy that was like, yeah, part of your priesthood responsibilities is to get to know church history and to understand doctrine and be like conkey and, and dig in deep and. And have interesting things to say during elders quorum.

Polly Brown [00:28:54] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] I don't know if that's you or

Justin Brown [00:28:56] maybe I didn't really care to say anything interesting in elders Quorum, but. But yeah, I just like to study. I'm just a studious person. I like to read. I like history. I just like to dig into stuff. Like I said on my mission, I couldn't because I was limited to what was available to read. So when I got home I just, I just. It was like a five or six year period where I just was really studying church history.

Polly Brown [00:29:19] Yep.

Justin Brown [00:29:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] And. And in your mind, Justin, were you starting to have doubts or was it just like, oh, interesting.

Justin Brown [00:29:27] Yeah, I think so. I, I, I mean there were a lot of things that I just found incredulous or that I couldn't reconcile or make sense of. But I had this, you know, I had this mission experience that at the time I looked at as something that was, that saved my life. That saved.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] Tell us that.

Justin Brown [00:29:48] Well, I mean I, I explained that I had like, I had these doubts and I had this. When I was 20, a lot of my friends were leaving on missions and a lot of work and I felt lost and I felt confused and I felt like I was on a terribly dark road and I probably wasn't on the best road. Looking at it now, I think it's probably a road that a lot of 20 year old kids were on or are on and they're fine. But that's the way I saw it back then, in my mid-20s to late 20s, just going nowhere. Well, I saw that I was probably going nowhere and so I saw the church and definitely the mission as something

Polly Brown [00:30:23] that really helped me and as a different path maybe.

Justin Brown [00:30:27] Yeah, and I will say it did really help me. I was, I, I'm a good student and I was just like kind of floating, not really committed to a school. And when I came home from my mission, I was all in full time at the U. Graduated in four years, got great grades, two degrees, started a business, the business was doing great, bought a house. Like I kind of attributed all this, this positive life trajectory to, To double down in the church and to go on a mission. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Yeah, why not, right?

Justin Brown [00:31:03] I mean, it made sense to me. Yeah, so, so, but I did see some cracks. I did see some things that were super troubling. I can't, Like I said, we came across the Mountain Meadows massacre. And it's funny when I think back on it, Paulie and I both just said, well, the church leaders are fallible and the church isn't perfect and it makes mistakes. But again, that's, we still had, we were still able to believe that that was then and that of course church leaders are fallible. And we never, I don't think either of us ever expected Brigham Young or Joseph Smith or anybody else to be perfect. So when we came across these problems, these issues with those people particularly, we kind of were able to look past it.

Polly Brown [00:31:44] I think that's easy reasoning.

Justin Brown [00:31:46] Yeah, we were able to, I mean, the mental gymnastics, we were like, ah, well, you can't judge Brigham Young. You know, rough stone Rowling says it, it's a cultural biography. You can't judge Joseph Smith in 2005 according to 2005 standards, because the guy was around in the 1830s and 40s, you know, and that made perfect sense to me, and I think that's what we did. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] So when. When did things start going sideways? Like, how many years into the marriage?

Polly Brown [00:32:14] When you're. When did your podcast come out?

John Dehlin [00:32:19] So my podcast came out in 2005. I don't like to hear the impetus. She knew

Justin Brown [00:32:29] it started in, like, we actually know the story because we. We talked about this on.

Polly Brown [00:32:35] You listen to. So.

Justin Brown [00:32:36] Oh, I love Mormon Stories. And we will say we love. You didn't meet us at your conference at the Mormon Stories retreat.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] We met you before.

Justin Brown [00:32:44] Yep. We came up and did a counseling session with you and Margi, and it was so awesome.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Well, I can't tell that. That's just.

Polly Brown [00:32:49] I know. See, he kept that very potential.

Justin Brown [00:32:52] That's right. I get it now. So, yeah, we. I think the crack started. Paula, you can tell me something about that.

Polly Brown [00:32:58] What year was that? When we went and talked to them,

Justin Brown [00:32:59] it was four years. So I think the first real crack started with Prop 8, when I think back to it, because we have a really good friend who. And John, you know him, Sean Rasmussen. He met with you, I think, a couple times, just as, like, a friend. And his sister's gay.

Justin Brown [00:33:18] And so he kind of started pushing buttons a little bit with us, trying to, like, poke the bear a little about our beliefs. And he was still a believing Mormon all in at that time, but he was struggling with that a little bit more openly than we were. And I think that's when it began. And then it kind of started unraveling to the point to where one day, Sean sent an email to some friends, including me, that was like, hey, I'm really struggling. So I had a friend who was really struggling in his faith. That's really what it comes down to. And I told him, I said, well, dude, I will jump in with you, because I'd been studying a lot of this stuff, and I thought, you know, I mean, my ego thought, oh, I can help Sean.

Justin Brown [00:34:01] I can help Sean get through this and stay faithful. It's so funny to think about it now, the way I reacted, it was just such a. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be able to help Sean get through this. And really what ended up happening is Sean helped me so much. See.

Justin Brown [00:34:18] Kind of see things that I wasn't seeing before. So I think that's it. That was like, 2002. 10ish right. When that happened, I think. Oh, wait. I think the Prop 8 thing, neither one of us felt good about that.

Polly Brown [00:34:33] Right.

Justin Brown [00:34:33] We got to a place really quickly because of Sean, where we were like, yeah, the church is just wrong. Their stance on. On the gay issue is just wrong.

Polly Brown [00:34:41] And at the time, we didn't have anyone in our close family that was

Justin Brown [00:34:45] gay that we knew about.

Polly Brown [00:34:46] Yeah. That we knew about. Now we do.

Justin Brown [00:34:48] Right.

Polly Brown [00:34:48] But at the time, it's kind of easy to just kind of push it aside and be like, well, it's not affecting us right now.

Justin Brown [00:34:54] You know, and they're wrong and they'll get better.

Polly Brown [00:34:56] Yeah. Or the church will come around.

Justin Brown [00:34:58] Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, the church will get better.

Polly Brown [00:35:00] Yeah. But in 2010, these were little things. He was still going to church. We were still all in.

Justin Brown [00:35:06] Yeah, I think so.

Polly Brown [00:35:06] But he was just exploring more on the site.

Justin Brown [00:35:09] But my faith was definitely falling apart. My traditional beliefs in the church were definitely not. You know, the way I've always described it is. It was kind of like brick by brick. There was this wall that was being built that is kind of the wall of. I no longer believe this stuff. Prop 8 was one of them. And I could list a whole bunch more, but that's. I think it's when the crack. Excuse me. I think that's when the cracks started,

Polly Brown [00:35:36] but I don't think it affected our marriage at that point.

Justin Brown [00:35:40] I don't think so either.

Polly Brown [00:35:41] No. Because it took. You were in it for years, just reading and researching and.

Justin Brown [00:35:45] And then we dove into Sean and I dove into your podcasts, into Mormon stories, and we dove into a lot of other stuff as well. I remember just laughing so much about the Infants on Thrones podcasts. I learned a ton from those guys and from you. And so we just started diving into it. And then I would come home to Paulie and be like, you are not going to believe this. And I would. A lot of this stuff we had heard, but for some reason, I was just looking at it from a different perspective now. Maybe not so much of a believing perspective. And I'd come home, and sometimes Paulie would be like, yeah, I don't want to hear that.

Justin Brown [00:36:21] You know? And I had to be sensitive to that. And sometimes I pushed it too far, I think, but I tried really hard not to. And then. I don't know what you think, but I. I think the cracks started happening in our marriage in 2015. So it's been four now. 14. Yep. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] So. So, Paulie, let's switch over to you for a second and kind of ask your perspective as he's slowly studying all this history. And this is a very common narrative.

Justin Brown [00:36:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] One of. One of the two starts studying history or is bothered by the church's LGBT stances. And over the years, they start to become less firm, more questioning.

Polly Brown [00:37:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] I have to almost think, though, that maybe your upbringing is a less uptight Mormon. Might give you a little latitude where it's just like, yeah, my parents weren't super intense. I'm not super intense.

Polly Brown [00:37:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] Church isn't what I thought.

Justin Brown [00:37:17] That's exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Is that right?

Justin Brown [00:37:19] Yep, that's exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] Maybe it wasn't some huge, big, awful emergency.

Polly Brown [00:37:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] It was just like, oh, it's not what I thought.

Justin Brown [00:37:26] Right.

Polly Brown [00:37:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] But we'll still it. We'll stay in it, because that's what you do.

Polly Brown [00:37:30] And we have friends whose families are very in strict. And it's. It's definitely a different story for them.

Justin Brown [00:37:36] It's been harder for them.

Polly Brown [00:37:37] It's harder for sure.

Justin Brown [00:37:39] I think somebody said, I think maybe Natasha Helfer Parker said that on one of your shows once. That or maybe one of her shows, I can't remember that. The more orthodox a family is, the harder it is to deal with a faith transition. And so we didn't really have that. I didn't have that. Yeah, it wasn't that hard for me

Polly Brown [00:37:56] to just be like, yeah, but it was hard. I mean, what you went through was a lot. Let's not downplay that.

Justin Brown [00:38:02] I appreciate that.

Polly Brown [00:38:03] And it was a lot for us. But luckily we didn't have the stress of the family pressure on top of it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] Yeah. So, Polly, tell us how you experienced his investigations and the weakening of his faith. Were you getting nervous? Were you freaking out?

Polly Brown [00:38:20] I don't think at first I was. Because Justin's the type to need information about everything, and he researches, and that's him. He just needs whatever he can get. Yeah, right. Loves books. I mean, English major, like, that's him. Wants to study. And so at first, when he was going through all that, I didn't think much of it, but I think as it kept going and going, and then he would come home and be like, oh, my gosh, you've got to hear this about Joseph Smith or this. And I remember one time we were in the car driving, and he's like, did you know this happened?

Polly Brown [00:38:54] And he kept talking and I was like, I don't want to hear this. And I finally just was crying, and I'm like, I don't want to hear this. You know, like, he's so excited about this information he's hearing, and he's got all these truths and resources and this. But I think it's hard for him to get that. I'm not that type of person. I don't need all the information. I don't need this. Like, let me be where I am. Yeah, yeah. Which was really hard for you because you're.

Justin Brown [00:39:20] Because I'm like, how could you not want to hear this? This is so fascinating.

Polly Brown [00:39:23] Yeah. Yeah, right? It was definitely hard to balance. To balance that out. And it was hard on us, hard on our marriage. He would want to share things, what he's learned, and he'd be frustrated that I didn't want to learn it or that I still wanted to go to church. And it's hard to fill that out.

Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage Together

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Yeah, let's dig into that just a tiny bit. So I think there's always kind of a few perspectives when a couple's in a mixed faith marriage. The, the. So the non believer usually feels a couple things. It's like, number one, you're supposed to be my partner. You're supposed to be my everything, and you're supposed to trust me and think I'm smart and wise. I don't want to go through this alone. This is hard or it's exciting or whatever it is. I want to share it with my soulmate. And, you know, there's that sort of like the companionship element. Right. That can be a real disappointment if your partner's just not into it. It's just like, what do I go tell it to my high school girlfriend? Do I go online?

Polly Brown [00:40:31] Who do I talk to?

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Who do I talk to? I can't talk to my parents, maybe, or my. Like, I should be able to talk to you. So that's one element. And then there's like the element that is. Is. And I talk about it more of my stories. The validity versus the utility paradigm. Validity is. Is the church true or not? And some people really care if it's true or not. And if it's true, I'll march to China and back because it's true. But if it's not true, I'm out. You know what I mean? There's other people are the validity that have the utility perspective, which is, I don't totally care if it's true. I mean, in the back of my mind, I believe it's true, but it's just working for me. And if it's working, it's working. So I want to just get.

Polly Brown [00:41:10] That's totally us.

Justin Brown [00:41:12] Yeah, yeah. It was a utility perspective, for sure.

Polly Brown [00:41:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] So Justin was the validity and you, Polly, were the utility.

Justin Brown [00:41:19] No, I think we were both utility. I don't think I was a validity guy.

Polly Brown [00:41:22] Oh, I think you were like, once you read a few things and this, then you were like, yeah, I can't do this, I'm done.

Justin Brown [00:41:28] Well, that's fair. But I think it was more along the lines of for a long time we were hearing and learning these things that we were not okay with. So the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I was not okay with that ever. And we went and saw a non Mormon documentary about it and those people were pissed about it. I mean, these were families from Arkansas.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] And I remember ancestors were slaughtered.

Justin Brown [00:41:52] Yes. And I remember back then it was a utilitarian thing for me. It was like, well, yeah, that's a mistake. Like I said earlier, prophets, leaders, people are fallible. That's not why I'm in the church. The church offers this, this, this and this. So maybe, maybe I was a mix. I don't know. But to me back then, it was very. A utility thing, utilitarian. But then in the fifth 2015, 2016, that those bricks in the wall got to where they. The wall got so oppressive to me that I was like, no way. Yeah, like, I'm not buying this anymore.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] So I'm going to jump to you for a second, Justin, then I'll jump right back to you, Polly.

Justin Brown [00:42:34] That's great.

John Dehlin [00:42:34] So. So for the mixed faith couples that are listening now, Justin, tell our. Tell the believing listeners who are listening what it's like to like, go through all this discovery and to want to share it with somebody and why you want to share it with them and what it's like to just sit there without.

Justin Brown [00:42:55] And what it feels like to not.

Polly Brown [00:42:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] To not be able to.

Justin Brown [00:42:58] So it's super difficult.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] And.

Justin Brown [00:43:01] And Pauli has made this point many times. It's also. I understand that it is hard for the person who still believes, and I understood that then. And I don't think there's any way for me to understand fully how hard it was, but so I tried very hard. I understood always that faith is a precarious thing and that you need to be careful with other people's faith.

Justin Brown [00:43:25] And so I tried really hard to be careful. And that is tough because you do want to share. You do want to have someone to talk with. I got really lucky because I have a close group of friends, some buddies who basically started going through this at the same Time, and we all kind of went through it together. And I think a lot of those guys had spouses who didn't want to hear. And so we would go get coffee together and talk. And so I had an outlet.

Justin Brown [00:43:54] So I might not be the greatest example for how hard that is for someone who can't talk about it, because I could talk about it, but it was really difficult that I couldn't talk about it with Paulie. And I think what was even more difficult than not being able to talk about it, it was that when we did, I just would approach it and be like, wait, this happened. Like, this is verifiable. We know this. You know, there were just these. The cognitive dissonance became so great that I would say these things to Paulie, and she.

Justin Brown [00:44:25] She just. What was so difficult is that sometimes she was not coming with me in those beliefs or in. In. In disbelieving or in. In changing the way I saw things. Sometimes I just could not believe that Paulie wasn't coming with me on that.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:44:42] And that was really, really, really hard.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] Why'd you want her to come with you? Why'd you need her to come with you?

Justin Brown [00:44:46] Well, it's. It's. Maybe it's not that I needed her to come with me. It's that I was afraid of what would happen if she didn't.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Which was. What were your fears?

Justin Brown [00:44:53] Well, I mean, that's a good question. I think my fears were, she's not going to love me. We're going to grow apart. Our differences are going to become irreconcilable. At the time when this got started getting really heavy, we already had three kids, and we both love our kids so much, you know? Know. And I'm sure everyone does.

Justin Brown [00:45:15] And I just could not imagine a world where I didn't wake up every day and go to bed every day with my kids, like, right there, you know? And so I was really afraid of that because I did see that a lot of people. I mean, listening to your show and listening to other people and just.

Justin Brown [00:45:32] It's funny when you. When you start going through these. This faith transition, people come out of the woodwork who are also going through it, and they're needing somebody to talk to because they're in the same boat. They don't have a spouse they can talk to or they don't have a friend they can talk to or whatever it may be.

Justin Brown [00:45:49] So you start hearing from all these people who are struggling, and a lot of times what you hear is that they're Getting divorced and that they're losing their wife or their husband or their parents or their best friends or their job or. I mean, I mean, you get it. And I'm hearing all this and I'm seeing all this happening and I didn't want that. I love Pauly. But you, you know, we wanted. That was. I wanted us to be. I wanted us to be able to stay married.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] Yeah. And so there's a. A core intimacy piece which is just when you're close to someone, you want to be able to share everything. And if you can't, that can feel like a breach of emotional intimacy.

Justin Brown [00:46:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Which can lead to you needing to find connection or intimacy outside the marriage, preferably with someone who you're not sexually attracted to. But, but even if you're not sexually attracted to somebody, you know, you still want to think that it's always your spouse that you can tell everything to and be totally connected with. It can get perilous if, if your non believing spouse feels like they have to confide in somebody, it happens to be somebody that doesn't totally respect the marriage or whatever. And so that can be perilous too. And of course the believing spouse can become super scared about who's he hanging out with, who are all these ex Mormon groups and what are their values and are they respecting the marriage and what could happen there?

John Dehlin [00:47:13] So that's all a thing. Yeah. And so you just. You don't want to grow apart, but also it can. You can become depressed and anxious and lonely and that's not good either. Just for your own personal mental health. So. So, Justin, I'm super happy that you're able to find some buddies.

Justin Brown [00:47:29] Oh, it was so helpful to talk

John Dehlin [00:47:31] to because that's huge.

Justin Brown [00:47:32] Was so helpful.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] But it's still hard, you know, it was so hard. Still hard.

Justin Brown [00:47:35] It was so hard.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] So, you know, I can see why you would want to bring her along, share with her, confide in her.

Justin Brown [00:47:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] And that's all supernatural.

Polly Brown [00:47:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] So, all right.

Polly Brown [00:47:49] So, Polly, he brought me to the Mormon Stories retreat.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] That's what he did well before then. So, Polly, from your perspective now, I don't know if you were conscious about these processes that he was experiencing. Not wanting to grow apart, not wanting to lose you, not wanting to be alone, having someone to connect with. And maybe, maybe the part of it Justin, is just. And this is tricky, but like from the non believer's perspective or the doubter's perspective, it's like, well, doesn't she care about truth? Doesn't she care about reality. Like, you know, doesn't she want to base. And that's a very insulting thing from the believing perspective.

Polly Brown [00:48:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] But, but just. I'm not trying to project on you, but is that.

Justin Brown [00:48:33] Yeah, there were some times when I felt that for sure.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] Yeah. Yep.

Justin Brown [00:48:36] It's like, wait, what? Like I said, this happened. It's verifiable. You know, I went to. I went to lunch one day with my good friend, with Grant Palmer, and I mean, this guy is. Was such a sweetheart and he had. I mean, he was just the, the most lovable, kind guy. And I would, I could not. After, after meeting with this guy and reading his books and listening to his interviews, it was like, how do you not believe what this guy's saying? You know? Yeah. So sometimes I'd be like, wait, this is plain as day. You should see this.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:49:14] And that's not fair.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] No, not at all.

Justin Brown [00:49:16] It's not fair.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] But we're just sharing perspectives.

Justin Brown [00:49:19] Right?

Polly Brown [00:49:19] Right.

Justin Brown [00:49:20] Yeah, I did feel that.

Polly's Perspective on Justin's Faith Transition

John Dehlin [00:49:20] So now it's time for Polly's perspective. Okay, so, Polly, how do you respond to all of this?

Polly Brown [00:49:27] Well, it's interesting because I'm not looking at that at all. My perspective is we are sealed and we committed to live this way with our family. And you're going to back out on it now? What? That's what, that's what I'm feeling. And that's what I'm thinking.

Polly Brown [00:49:48] Our deal was to get married in the temple, you know, and that doesn't mean you just go once and get married like you're sealed. We're sealed together. And if you're not active and not going, like you're breaking that deal. Do you know what I mean? So that's what I'm thinking. Like, we both have our fears and I'm thinking, can I be married to someone that isn't a member? Yeah. Like, this is what I've always wanted. This was on my list. Like, what now? What now what happens? What do I do? So that's what's going through my mind when. That's when you're thinking all these things. I'm thinking that too. Right. It's. It's so hard.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] So what about. So let's, let's have you respond to each of these.

Polly Brown [00:50:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Items that we covered and then, then have you bring up your own. Okay, so were you conscious of the fact. Let's just say his own mental health and well being. Were you conscious of the fact that he was going through something hard or traumatic or important to him and that you were basically saying, I can't go there with you. And were you concerned about his. Well being, going through that alone? And then the second part of that question is, were you concerned about the implications for the marriage if you did go there with them and then if you didn't go there with them? Because there's. There's risks both ways, right? There's risks if you do go there with them. Yeah, but you probably perceive risks if you. I don't know if you perceive risks if you didn't.

Polly Brown [00:51:18] Yeah, I saw both ways for sure.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] So talk about that. So, yeah, so he's coming to you. Mount Mountain Massacre.

Polly Brown [00:51:25] Polygamy.

Justin Brown [00:51:25] Joseph Rar.

Polly Brown [00:51:27] But I will say I was a good listener. There were only a handful of times where I was like, I can't, I can't. But he would send me podcasts and I would listen. Whoa. He would send me.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] So that's actually.

Polly Brown [00:51:38] But he knew which ones to send me.

Justin Brown [00:51:40] I mean, you can say if not. But I think I was careful.

Polly Brown [00:51:43] You were very careful. Yeah, but I tried.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] What did he send you?

Polly Brown [00:51:47] He sent me. He knew which ones would get me to listen.

Justin Brown [00:51:50] Richard Bushman.

Polly Brown [00:51:51] Richard Bushman. Paulie and the security guy.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Paulie loves older people, non believers. Couple people. Listen to this list.

Polly Brown [00:51:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] And you can share this list with your spouses.

Polly Brown [00:52:01] And who is that one from England?

Justin Brown [00:52:04] Oh, he was so good. The guy who had his calling in election.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Phillips.

Justin Brown [00:52:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] You didn't mind the Tom Phillips interview?

Polly Brown [00:52:09] Oh, it broke my heart. I just. My heart went out.

Justin Brown [00:52:14] This poor guy talking about his family leaving him and shit.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] He had been stake president twice. But I think hearing that got his second.

Justin Brown [00:52:23] Yeah, that's right.

Polly Brown [00:52:23] That was so good.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] And what happens? What does his family do?

Polly Brown [00:52:27] They leave him, talk to him. Maybe that's why he sent me this. Maybe that's why he sent me this. Like, don't make me be like this. But so were you.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Like, some would say that's a really scary. The Tom Phillips interview, which is one of the top three Mormon stories interviews of all time.

Justin Brown [00:52:43] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:52:43] Some would say that's a really scary one to send to your believing spouse.

Justin Brown [00:52:46] But for you, I just know that Pauli really feels an affinity with older people. And so Sandra Tanner. Yeah, she loved Sandra Tanner's interview. Right. And we went to her bookstore.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] She's like Satan according to Mormon lore. Right.

Justin Brown [00:53:06] We went down there, remember? We went to her bookstore. Polly loved it because she's like, she's just this cute old lady. She's not trying to hurt anybody. She's just telling her story.

Polly Brown [00:53:14] What did you send me? No, just kidding. Yeah. He would send me few that he knew that I would have empathy toward and just feel for these people.

Justin Brown [00:53:24] And that you would. That would resonate with you. I try. I thought. I knew you were.

Polly Brown [00:53:27] He didn't send me a lot of anything that was like, bashing the church really hard.

Justin Brown [00:53:31] Like, I didn't send Grant Palmer's. You didn't listen to Grant Palmer's discussion about the Laws until years later.

Polly Brown [00:53:37] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:53:38] But you did listen to it.

Polly Brown [00:53:39] I did.

Justin Brown [00:53:39] And you came back and you were like, oh, my gosh.

Polly Brown [00:53:42] I came back and I said, buy me that biography.

Justin Brown [00:53:45] Yeah. She wants.

Polly Brown [00:53:45] Where's his journal? I want to read it.

Justin Brown [00:53:47] William Law's journal.

Polly Brown [00:53:47] So I do enjoy history and I do enjoy things, and I guess I have a fun fine line of what's pushing me and what's not, because hearing other people's stories and their experiences, I just have. My heart just goes out to them, and I think it makes me better understand what he's going through and maybe more supportive instead of like this. Like, don't. I don't believe that. I think I was okay with where I was in my bubble and just was able to hopefully connect with you in a different way.

Justin Brown [00:54:18] Yeah, you did.

Polly Brown [00:54:18] And help you. Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:54:20] I think another good example would be we were. I would listen to a lot of the Mormon Expressions podcast with John Witherspoon. Dan. John Larsen.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Sorry, John Larsen.

Justin Brown [00:54:29] Yeah. And I did also listen to a lot of Dan Wither. I sent you some Dan Witherspoon. He's so awesome.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] That's Mormon Matters.

Justin Brown [00:54:35] Mormon Matters.

Polly Brown [00:54:35] I only listen to one out of every ten. I've got four kids. I cannot listen to the podcast. But the.

Justin Brown [00:54:41] But the John Larsen stuff, I found it so fascinating, but I wasn't going to send that to Paulie because he was a little more antagonistic about his approach to what was going on. Same with, like, Infants on Thrones. I didn't send you that stuff because I didn't want to. Again, faith is a precarious thing. And it wasn't. I didn't. I was trying not to rock your boat.

Polly Brown [00:55:00] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:55:01] Too badly.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] So here's where, you know, sometimes when I choose someone for an interview, it fits with some people and doesn't fit with others. We're getting messages from some of our listeners. Like, Jamie writes, let's see. No, no, no. Tammy writes, I wish I could get my husband to listen or read. He absolutely refuses. And then Jennifer writes, me, too, replying To Tammy. And so it seems like you, Polly, were kind of in the 99th percentile for openness and willingness to listen and. Because really, when somebody's. And this. This was. Would have been after my excommunication, because 2015, I was excommunicated.

Polly Brown [00:55:51] Yeah. Because he sent me that too.

Justin Brown [00:55:53] She was so mad, by the way.

Polly Brown [00:55:55] You remember that broke my heart that

Justin Brown [00:55:57] I knew that that was a hard

Polly Brown [00:55:58] thing to listen to. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Yeah. Well, thank you. And yeah. But I guess what I'm getting at is there is a class of orthodox Mormon that's just like, is it approved by the church? Is this faithful? I get a bad feeling they're talking about hard things. Oh, this is John Boleyn or I'm not gonna listen to apostates. And they just shut down and they won't even consider it. So you're already in like the 95th percentile.

Polly Brown [00:56:26] Well, let me say.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Because you were open.

Polly Brown [00:56:28] Well, thank you. But this didn't happen in six months. This happened in six years.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Oh, okay.

Polly Brown [00:56:33] So going really slow, like, that's my advice to anybody. Don't push Justin.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Justin went slowly.

Polly Brown [00:56:40] Yes. Don't push it. Just take your time. And even if, like you're out, you know you're out. Don't. I don't know, just be gentle and go slow with what information or what things you're proposing. You know, take time. Like, even with you drinking coffee, that was really hard.

Justin Brown [00:56:57] Right.

Polly Brown [00:56:58] You know, but just like ease into things and it's. Give your spouse time to think about it and figure it out and, you know, just.

Justin Brown [00:57:07] And we made some mistakes along this way.

Polly Brown [00:57:09] Yeah. You know, but I think that helps. This wasn't a three month period where he was sending me stuff and I was okay with it.

Justin Brown [00:57:15] Like, it took a long time.

Polly Brown [00:57:16] It took a long time.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Okay, so Polly, what I hear you saying is that Justin maybe was patient and thoughtful.

Polly Brown [00:57:24] Very.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] About the things he'd share with you.

Polly Brown [00:57:27] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:57:27] It's nice of you to say.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] And. And maybe it'll be different for every person. What?

Polly Brown [00:57:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] You know, so if you're the non believing spouse and you want to share something with your believing spouse, be thoughtful about it.

Polly Brown [00:57:38] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] Be patient, take your time. And when I say be thoughtful, I mean think about what types of stories will feel safe or resonate.

Polly Brown [00:57:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Well, and that's what I love about marriage on a tightrope podcast. And Alan just joined us and he gave to you guys. But that's what's great about maritime tightrope podcast is it's got A believer. Katie's a believer.

Justin Brown [00:58:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:04] Alan's not. And so believers can feel more, you know, if. If your spouse isn't going to resonate with the evil, horrible, apostate John de Lynn. But. But they will with Alan and Katie Mount Freaking Listen to Marriage on a Tightrope podcast or they are amazing Mormon matters or. Yeah, whatever faithful podcasts are out there.

Polly Brown [00:58:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] But. But be. As a non believer, be patient, be careful, be thoughtful about what you share and give it lots of time.

Polly Brown [00:58:32] I think so. But I do think you kind of knew what you were doing. I mean, you wanted me to know what you were reading and listening to and all that. Right. So you would do it carefully. Like we went and heard. Who was that couple we heard speak with Matt and Breck in that backyard?

Justin Brown [00:58:49] Oh, Terrell and Fiona Gibbons.

Polly Brown [00:58:51] Yeah. So we would go hear them speak together, which.

Justin Brown [00:58:54] Because how do you not. And so I think what you're getting at is that I would give you sources that were exposing some of the truths about our church without. Without saying the church is awful and you should leave.

Polly Brown [00:59:09] Right.

Justin Brown [00:59:10] Yep. Yeah, I was super careful. I mean, a really great resource is a rough stone rolling because the church sells it.

John Dehlin [00:59:17] Right.

Justin Brown [00:59:17] It's a great resource.

Polly Brown [00:59:18] And I still haven't read it. I don't have a desire to read

Justin Brown [00:59:20] it, but you know most of what's going on.

Polly Brown [00:59:22] But I guess I do. Yeah. And eventually, as this has gone on, years and years and years and years and years, I feel like I know everything, you know?

Justin Brown [00:59:30] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:59:30] I finally come to be like, okay, this is how it's gonna be. This is who we are. And I'm okay with. And it's really hard for Justin that I'm okay. I keep saying in my bubble, you know, like, I'm comfortable and I'm happy with where I am and it's just. That's how I want it to be.

Justin Brown [00:59:48] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:59:49] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] But Polly. Oh, and by the way, Katie's watching with Alan, so shout out to.

Polly Brown [00:59:53] Hi, Katie. Hi, Katie.

Justin Brown [00:59:55] We love you guys.

Polly Brown [00:59:56] Katie. I'm getting a couch. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Yeah. So kudos to Justin for being patient and thoughtful about what he shares. Kudos to Paulie for being open and willing to consider things and to hear things and to connect. So those are great. Those are great role models for our listeners.

Mormon Stories Retreat and Finding Support

Justin Brown [01:00:21] Can I just tell one of the

John Dehlin [01:00:23] content providers that provide us stuff?

Justin Brown [01:00:25] Can I. Can I say one more thing about that? A really great example of what you just described with Paulie is when we went to your Mormon Stories Retreat.

Polly Brown [01:00:35] That was huge for us.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] Yeah, go ahead.

Justin Brown [01:00:38] Because.

Polly Brown [01:00:38] So wait, let me start by saying this. It's our anniversary, and Justin's like, hey, I have an idea to do something different. And I was like, okay. And he's like, I want to go to this Mormon Stories retreat for our anniversary. I was like, John Delaney. And I was a little nervous, but I knew he needed it. And I thought, okay, if there's a lot of church bashing, I will just leave the room. You know, I felt like I could walk out, I could make it safe. I was nervous, but I knew he needed it.

Justin Brown [01:01:07] And I think that's what I wanted to say was that when I proposed that to Paulie, she was like, yeah, sure, you know, to your point, she was very open and accepting. And we'd been through the rounds on some issues, but for the most part, Paulie's always just been willing to be open about it. And you always describe this bubble. I just don't think you're in the bubble that you describe anymore, you know, or maybe. Maybe the bubble's really big now, so you have a lot of latitude in your bubble. But she was always very open and very willing to listen and to accept what I was going through.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Yeah. So a theme, and we're gonna come right to you, Polly. A theme is bend so you don't break. If both of you can be flexible, I love that. Then the marriage won't break apart because

Polly Brown [01:01:53] we don't want a divorce.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] Right.

Polly Brown [01:01:55] I mean, so we go to this Mormon Stories retreat in Park City.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] So, like, by this time, I'm excommunicated.

Polly Brown [01:02:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] The church has named me as one of the great ten enemies of the church. I imagine there's a lot of believers where it's just like, no freaking way I'm going anywhere in the same room as John de Lind.

Polly Brown [01:02:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:12] So what made you willing to do that, Honestly?

Polly Brown [01:02:15] Well, we'd met with you guys before because I think.

Justin Brown [01:02:20] And Paulie loved you guys.

Polly Brown [01:02:21] Yeah. I love your wife.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] Me and Margi.

Polly Brown [01:02:23] Yep. You guys are awesome. And I felt safe with you guys. You had been members, so you kind of know how I'm feeling, what I'm going through. But you also know what he's going through. And so I felt like you guys were a safe couple, and I knew that going into it, but I also had heard some of your podcasts and, like, your excommunication and these things, and it's just like, you're. You're not this bad person that everyone says I felt Like I knew you, so I felt I was okay to go. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Oh, thank you. And I really appreciated that. Trust me.

Polly Brown [01:02:54] It definitely. You guys are amazing. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] And we, and, and I'll let you talk about the experience, but we definitely. When Natasha Alpha Parker and I designed these retreats together, our goal was to. Number one, to make believers feel safe. You want non believers and people going through a faith crisis to feel validated, but many of them are going to bring their non believing spouses and our goal is never to rip on the church. We almost rarely talk to church.

Polly Brown [01:03:20] Yeah. You don't.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] Yeah. It's just about the mix. It's about navigating the faith crisis, about creating a new world, about communicating believing family and friends.

Polly Brown [01:03:29] And it was nothing about marriage. It was just. We just happened to go together.

Justin Brown [01:03:34] Well, it was, I mean their conference was about marriage for sure. We talked, they talked a lot about emotional intimacy and vulnerability and all that.

Polly Brown [01:03:41] I don't think it was for a marriage retreat, was it?

Justin Brown [01:03:43] No, I don't think it was for a mix. No.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] Singles go.

Justin Brown [01:03:45] Yeah. Single people go. For sure.

Polly Brown [01:03:47] And I think there were, were there two of us that were believers, me and another wife.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] Sometimes it's up to a third. It just depends. Yeah.

Polly Brown [01:03:55] So I definitely was.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] You were in the minority.

Polly Brown [01:03:59] Totally. And I was way out of my comfort zone. I thought, oh crap, what did I do?

Justin Brown [01:04:03] But remember how many people came up to you afterward and they were like, thank you for being here because now we can see that all. Remember the one guy, he was like, now I know that all my active Mormon neighbors don't hate me.

Polly Brown [01:04:15] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:04:15] Because you don't hate them.

Polly Brown [01:04:16] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:04:16] Right.

Polly Brown [01:04:17] So I feel like we went and what it did, it was like a therapy session for us for a whole weekend, connected us and it just, oh, you need to go to these. Can I just tell.

Justin Brown [01:04:28] Yeah. These people who are saying that they're struggling and that their husbands won't listen or their spouse won't listen, it is. Try to get them to go to one of these conferences because it really, I mean it, if I can say this, I know I'm talking a lot and I don't want to over. I don't want to talk over you. But we have that moment where I knew that this was why we were there.

Polly Brown [01:04:48] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:04:48] Because you remember, I was like, I just feel like we need to be there. Like there's going to be some opportunity there. I don't know what it is. And then the opportunity did come.

Polly Brown [01:04:58] Well, John picked on me quite a bit. I feel like I had the mic a lot. I was very nervous.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Well, part of what I'm doing there is all these people are coming, trying not to blow up their world as they go through a faith crisis.

Polly Brown [01:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Which means offend their spouse, offend their parents, offend their kids.

Polly Brown [01:05:14] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] Their ward, offend their boss. And so it's tough on the believers that come a little bit. But I'm like, hey, we've got believers in the room. So if we're going to learn how to communicate effectively with believers, let's start right now. Let's have conversations that are respectful and kind and affirming and validating.

Polly Brown [01:05:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] And so believers, I kind of, like, try to celebrate and applaud believers and make them feel super comfortable, and then I kind of help bring them into the retreats. Natasha and I both do this so that we can start practicing what people are going to experience when they go out.

Polly Brown [01:05:54] And it worked.

Justin Brown [01:05:55] Yeah.

Polly Brown [01:05:55] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:05:56] It gave me the opportunity to. You opened it up. Does anyone want to say anything here or feel like you need to say anything? And that was the moment that I'd been waiting for, I think, even though I didn't know it. And I was able to kind of say in front of all these people and in front of Paulie how I felt, you know, and that I. That I was not going backward in my belief, that I was not ever going to be that same believing member again.

Justin Brown [01:06:22] And that was a hard thing for me to say to Paulie because I was so afraid of the consequences of divorce or whatever might happen. Even though I. I think I could say I should have had more faith that you would be okay. But it's freaking scary. And that gave me the place to say it was safe. Paulie was vulnerable. I was vulnerable. And you listened. And then. I mean, everything from then has gotten better.

Polly Brown [01:06:48] Yeah. And being there for me as the believer, seeing all these people that are going through this transition or crisis, whatever you want to call it, I mean, it's. It's rough. Like, your heart just goes out to these people. And it's so good to see and hear these stories and just gol. It's not like Justin looked. Looked for this. You know what I mean? Like, you didn't look.

Justin Brown [01:07:13] Yeah. It happens to people.

Polly Brown [01:07:14] Yeah. It just happens. And it's emotional and, I mean, it was good for me to see. It gave me more patience and more empathy and sympathy for all these people going through this. It's a lot. It's hard. Yeah. It was awesome to go to.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Yeah. It's. It's really close and intense when it's your own marriage. But if you're a believer and you come to these retreats and you see 50 other people who are going through the same thing and you're able to see some believing couples as well, it's like, oh, my gosh, my husband's or my spouse isn't broken. You know, other people are going through this. This isn't some life ending thing. Totally make it through this. And so, like, I think I almost want to say that the content that Natasha and I share is maybe a third of what's actually valuable. A third is the processing of people's experiences, and then a third is just the people you meet.

Justin Brown [01:08:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] And the interactions you have with the community. And this, by the way, this. This episode. We didn't talk about this before.

Polly Brown [01:08:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] We are not doing these episodes to get people to come to retreat.

Justin Brown [01:08:23] No.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] Although if it's going to help your marriage, we want you to come. Yeah, but that's not why we're doing this. We've done these things for years and we do it not because I don't, you know, because I've got all the spare time on my hands and I don't have things to do. We literally only do these retreats because they help people. So I appreciate you guys bringing that up, but I just want audience.

Polly Brown [01:08:41] Great.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] We're doing this because it saves marriages and saves lives.

Polly Brown [01:08:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] But do you guys agree with that idea that the processing and the people you meet in the community maybe is as important as the content?

Justin Brown [01:08:54] Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it's definitely important.

Polly Brown [01:08:57] Yeah. Right.

Justin Brown [01:08:57] The people that were there and the processing. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] Yeah.

Polly Brown [01:09:02] And it helped.

Justin Brown [01:09:02] The content's great, though.

Polly Brown [01:09:03] Helped me see that there were so many other people going in it. It wasn't just you and a few buddies. And it can work. Like, I can still do my thing. You can do your thing, but we're raised in a church that teaches you it doesn't work that way. It's this way or it doesn't work. You know what I mean? So that's hard to get over.

Justin Brown [01:09:23] Do you remember this to your point, John, that the community that was there, the people that were there. I remember you talked about this a lot, Paulie, that there were several people there who were with their spouse, who said when their spouse lost their faith, they went to their bishop or to a priesthood leader, and that priesthood leader said, you would be better off divorced. Yeah, I do remember their advice was to get divorced. And you were Sitting there like, what?

Polly Brown [01:09:51] Yeah. Crazy. No.

Justin Brown [01:09:53] Why would you. You wouldn't get divorced over this, right? You remember that?

Polly Brown [01:09:55] Yeah, I do.

Justin Brown [01:09:56] Yeah. So the people were so helpful and it does sound like we're trying to sell this Mormons. Like we're just huge fans. It helped us.

Polly Brown [01:10:04] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:10:04] That's all there is to it.

Polly Brown [01:10:04] And Natasha, you brought up Natasha. Her stuff helped us too.

Justin Brown [01:10:08] Oh, yeah.

Polly Brown [01:10:09] We listen to her a lot.

Justin Brown [01:10:10] She's so great.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] And part of why we bring Natasha, why I partner with Natasha, she's a licensed marriage and family therapist and she's a licensed sex therapist. So she gives talks about marriage, about intimacy, about sex. And that's all important stuff. Especially going through a faith crisis. Sometimes couples have a sexual reawakening or sexual revolution or whatever, and that's one of the benefits potentially. But also people can get in trouble.

Polly Brown [01:10:32] Maybe we'll have that sexually.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] What's that?

Polly Brown [01:10:35] Maybe we'll have that.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] Yeah. A real quick shout out to Amy Germer, who's joined in. She and her husband Miles came to. We actually have done a couple mixed faith marriage retreats where 20 couples all in mixed faith marriages come. We bring a believing therapists like, like Julie de Azevedo Hanks and we do a whole weekend with all mixed faith couples.

Polly Brown [01:10:58] That would be fun.

Justin Brown [01:10:59] That's cool.

John Dehlin [01:10:59] And those have been amazing, the few that we've done. If there's listeners who are interested, reach out. We'll make those things happen as well. Anything else you guys want to say about the retreat or. No, we covered it.

Justin Brown [01:11:09] It was awesome.

Polly Brown [01:11:10] It was awesome.

Justin Brown [01:11:10] Yeah.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1231

Polly Brown [00:00:00] Sam.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] So there is, there is the non believer feeling anxious to share and kind of frustrated that the believing spouse isn't open, that we've covered, that there's the believing spouse being willing or not to be open. There's this other really important dynamic that I think is one of the most important, repeated and dangerous parts about a mixed faith marriage, which is that the believing spouse starts to look on the non believing spouse as a disappointment, or in the worst case, they start to shame their believing spouse for not being the righteous priesthood holder or for breaking the deal.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] And that can drive the believing spouse into secret acts, secret behaviors, living a double life, living a split life because they're afraid to tell or show their believing spouse who they really are. That can become a huge problem. But then also the resentment that builds in the non believer as they're continually living with this partner. It's like sleeping with the enemy. They're living with a partner that views them as a disappointment, that views them as a failure, that views them as a aspect as bad or fallen or broken. And if you add time to that equation, years and years and years go by, you're going to grow apart, you're going to start hiding things from each other, and most probably dangerously, you're going to start building resentment for each other.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] And that's when things get really bad. And that's why I recommend coaching or therapy or retreats or whatever, because you don't want three, five years of swimming in that stew. So now that I've set that up, can you guys talk about whether that.

Rebuilding Connection as a Mixed-Faith Couple

Polly Brown [00:02:22] Yeah, and I do want to say

John Dehlin [00:02:24] there's the non believing spouse looking at the believing spouse as a disappointment. Oh, you're, you're an ostrich with your head in the sand. You're, you don't care about truth. You're, you're willing to stay ignorant or you're not bold or courageous.

Justin Brown [00:02:36] How are you not smarter?

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Smarter? You're not smart enough.

Polly Brown [00:02:39] That's the one you hate that drives me.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Did you guys talk about those dynamics?

Justin Brown [00:02:42] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:02:42] This person's so smart and intelligent. How are they not seeing this? This, when I hear people say that drives me crazy. Well, first of all, we've had a lot of therapy and life coaching.

Justin Brown [00:02:53] Yeah. And you made that recommendation. You guys really hit on that at the, at the conference, remember? They specifically said, hey, look, if you're going through this, you should seek help from licensed professionals who, and I think you guys made the point to talk to someone who specializes in dealing with faith crisis, with faith transition. With mixed faith marriages. I think the point that you guys made was that if we came to you with an addiction problem, you would kindly listen and then recommend that we go see someone who specializes in addiction, because that's not your thing. So. You're right. We. We did see.

Polly Brown [00:03:32] Yeah. I just want to throw that out there. Like, we try to be good at communicating. Justin's great at it. I'm not great.

Justin Brown [00:03:37] I think you're great.

Polly Brown [00:03:38] But we. You need help. We needed help. Like, it's a lot. It's intense. It's.

Justin Brown [00:03:43] So did you feel that way that I was looking down on you?

Polly Brown [00:03:47] Do you know what? I felt it. I did.

Justin Brown [00:03:50] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:03:50] And you will agree when I tell you the story.

Justin Brown [00:03:52] Okay.

Polly Brown [00:03:53] When I went to renew my temple recommend.

Justin Brown [00:03:55] Oh, yeah.

Polly Brown [00:03:56] That was really hard for Justin, and I didn't even think anything of it. I went to the bishop and, you know, went and did my interview, and I came back and you were like, 20 questions.

Justin Brown [00:04:06] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:04:06] Like, what did he say? What did you do? What did this? And then finally after a while, he. You opened up and you're like, I just want to make sure that they're not telling you to divorce me. Or they're not telling you that I'm not enough or, you know, that was hard.

Justin Brown [00:04:19] Isn't that ironic that what you were. I was kind of defensive and was. Because, I mean, at this time frame, Paulie and I had not been going to church for a long time, neither of us. And we'd marched with Sam Young downtown. The protect the children thing. I don't want to speak for you, but we were. We're both very opposed to these child interviews. We're opposed to any worthiness interviews, and

Polly Brown [00:04:43] we've been that way since we got married.

Justin Brown [00:04:45] Oh, yeah.

Polly Brown [00:04:45] We always said our kids would never be in an interview alone, ever.

Justin Brown [00:04:48] We've always thought, even though neither of us ever had an issue with it, we just. So then all of a sudden, you wanted to go get a temple recommend. And it scared me. And the reason that it scared me was because it felt like we were stepping back. And I felt like it was going to be.

Justin Brown [00:05:06] Luckily, we know the bishop. He's our next door neighbor. He's such a good dude. We both really, really, really like him and his wife. We care about him a lot. But I still was very concerned. To your point that is she going to look down on me? Like, is this going to be one of these things where I'm not worthy because we're raised under this.

Justin Brown [00:05:26] Excuse me. This construct where if you're not honoring your priesthood, which is attending all of your regular meetings if you don't hold a temple recommend, If. If you're not, which means you have to be paying your tithing and living the word of wisdom. And I'm drinking coffee and alcohol sometimes, and it's like, okay, are you gonna start looking down on me? And. And worst case scenario, are you gonna have a church, a group of people telling you that I'm not good enough for you?

Justin Brown [00:05:54] Are you gonna. Are you gonna have people telling you that you'd be better off not married to me? You know, it was super scary for me.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] Yeah, you can get paranoid a little bit.

Justin Brown [00:06:03] I did. A little bit. For sure.

Polly Brown [00:06:05] I feel like people are always looking at me, but I think it hit you right then.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] It did.

Polly Brown [00:06:09] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:06:10] For sure. So, yeah, we did feel that. I felt that. Sounds like Paulie felt a lot of that, too, so.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] She felt the judgment that she's not smart or courageous. You felt the judgment that you were inferior or less than or a disappointment. And that's just not fun. Right?

Justin Brown [00:06:26] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Paulie, talk about your feelings. Were you disappointed? Like, he did break the deal. You had every right to feel disappointed.

Polly Brown [00:06:36] You know what? At first I was. I don't. Disappointed and hurt, maybe. Hurt. You know, he brings home all these things he's listening to and reading, and when you really do, years later, hear that he's done and he's not going to go back, then it really hits you, and it just. I don't know. I guess I was in denial thinking, oh, he's just reading these. It's all good. He'll make a way to make it okay. But then when you hear that, it just. Excuse me. It. I don't know. It just. Yeah, it hurts. It hurts, but

Justin Brown [00:07:18] it's a loss.

Polly Brown [00:07:19] It is.

Justin Brown [00:07:20] Yes.

Polly Brown [00:07:20] Thank you. I'm, like, losing words, and that's what I would say. I said, I lost the person I married. That's how I felt. And that's not fair because Justin is Justin, and you're the same person I married. You truly are. But I just feel like I lost this, you know, this priesthood holder and returned missionary, and he was the one that would get us all to go to church and take me to the temple. Like, it was. It was him. He was the one that was kind of leading the pack here. Yeah, he was definitely the more religious one. And so it's hard. I felt like I. I lost him. And it's. It's hard.

Justin Brown [00:07:55] It is a loss.

Polly Brown [00:07:56] Yep.

Justin Brown [00:07:57] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Well, thanks for being vulnerable and honest about that. So I have to ask you, stop going to church, Polly. Like, what's that about? If you're, if you were still a believer, how, why would you stop going to church?

Polly Brown [00:08:12] I. Not really that intentionally. I feel like our life got a little crazy. Our daughter got in a really bad accident and wasn't walking and was down and so that kind of put our lives on hold. And then, I don't know, I think I just got lazy. I think it was really nice to just take a break, you know. And I'm scared, and this is so dumb, but I'm scared to be the lady alone with her kids at church.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Like our church when we had a mixed faith family for a while. We're like, I'm getting excommunicated, but our kids are still in. And like our church is not set up for kind of part, part believing, part attending families. Talk a little bit about either your fears or actually what that was like.

Polly Brown [00:08:54] Yeah, my fears were just to be looked at as that poor mom with her young kids by herself. And that's so silly, you know, but that's what I was feeling and I didn't want to go by myself. I didn't. So I didn't go for a few months and then we ended up moving and that's a whole other story. We live in a bus now.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Okay, we'll get there.

Polly Brown [00:09:19] But anyway, just we had this window of not going and I just thought, you know what? I'm going to take these months that we're traveling because I always say I'm floating. Like I hear the things you're bringing home and these truths you're claiming and I hear them and some of them I do believe. But I also know I have this church in the, this community and this tribe that I love and that makes me feel good and I, I still believe that. So I thought I'm going to take these months while we're gone and just kind of figure out what I need for me, you know, like where, where do I fit by myself in the church?

Polly Brown [00:09:54] I guess because I mean, I have a 14 year old and a 12 year old and if they see dad not going, they're not going to want to go to church, you know, so it's hard. I don't know how we're going to do this.

Justin Brown [00:10:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] So let's talk about that. So first of all, Tammy writes, you know, that they can't afford therapy. Tammy, that's the good news. That's why we have Mormon Stories podcast. That's why we also created with Natasha and Margi the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. So if you go to mormonfaithcrisis.com there's over 60 hours of free coaching and therapy, including an entire weekend retreat, the same one that, you know, Justin and Paulie attended. We recorded the whole thing and put it up on live for free. Not just the lectures for me and Natasha, but the participation of the participants. And it's phenomenal. So you've got Tammy without needing to spend a penny, unless you want to throw a bone our way just to support us.

John Dehlin [00:10:52] But even if you can't or don't, you got 60 plus 50 free hours of content that can really help you. So I hope, Tammy, you'll go to mormonfaithcrisis.com and take advantage of that and listeners as well. We're not out to just kind of make all the money we can. We want to help people if they don't have a penny to give anywhere. And that's part of what the mission of the Open Stories foundation is, is just to help people and their family members go through this, this faith crisis stuff.

Justin Brown [00:11:18] And can I add something there?

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Yeah, please.

Justin Brown [00:11:22] Going out on a limb here, Paulie. If this person, Tammy, wants to set up an appointment with you and Margi, I'll pay for it. We'll pay for it.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Oh, that's nice.

Justin Brown [00:11:33] Seriously, because, like, people do need help. Sorry I'm getting emotional about it. People do need help. And, you know, we're not crazy wealthy. But I'll find a way. Like we can find a way to help someone, right?

Polly Brown [00:11:45] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:11:46] Because it's hard.

Polly Brown [00:11:47] It's so hard.

Justin Brown [00:11:48] And I also want to say, like, part of the non church thing for Paulie, you're not letting on to this, but there's a lot of things that Paulie isn't okay with in the church.

Polly Brown [00:11:59] Right.

Justin Brown [00:12:00] There's a lot. And you know, in your own time and place, you'll talk about those. But that's made it a little bit easier. You know that we're not always at church. I think, I think it's fair to say that. But the therapy is instrumental. Having somebody to talk to is so important.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:12:20] You guys, Natasha recommended Jana and I love her too.

Justin Brown [00:12:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] So Jenna Spangler.

Justin Brown [00:12:27] Yes. She's so awesome.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] I think she works with Symmetry Solutions.

Justin Brown [00:12:31] Yeah, she does.

Polly Brown [00:12:31] She's great.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Yeah. So, okay, well, that's a really, that's a really kind offer.

Justin Brown [00:12:39] We can't, we can't afford to pay for that ongoing. But like, if it gets someone's foot in the door with you guys or with whoever you would recommend to this person, then.

Polly Brown [00:12:48] Yeah, we would.

Justin Brown [00:12:48] Like tell us and we'll help.

Polly Brown [00:12:50] Yep. And listen to Katie and Alan. And you know what, sometimes they take their listeners to dinner and that's how we met them. And there.

Justin Brown [00:12:58] And then you find someone to talk to.

Polly Brown [00:12:59] Yeah. You know.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Yeah. Join the. Join the. There. There's two groups I'm aware of. One is the marriage on a tightrope Facebook group, and the other is the Mormon mixed faith marriages, I think Facebook group, but there's two and community is huge. So even if you can't afford a therapist or coach, find other couples like you.

Polly Brown [00:13:21] Yeah, that helps.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Join those communities. Listen to. Listen to marriage on a tightrope podcast. But meet with other couples and the believers can connect and the non believers can connect and we'll go to dinner with people.

Polly Brown [00:13:34] We are lucky because there's three or four other couples that are kind of where we are and it helps so much. You know, you just need people to relate to.

Justin Brown [00:13:44] Yep.

Polly Brown [00:13:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] Yeah, that's great advice.

Polly Brown [00:13:46] Yeah.

Raising Kids Across Different Belief Systems

John Dehlin [00:13:48] So one, let's talk about kids for a second. Now, one of the huge, huge dynamics that couples face is the kids become kind of the center of a tug of war where the, the non believer is like, I don't want my kids. And you know, I'm not saying the church is a cult, but the non believer will be like, I don't want my kids raised in a cult or I don't want my kids learning, you know, the church's sexual hang ups or being taught that their bodies are shameful or if they masturbate, they're evil. I got to get my kids out of the church or they'll be brainwashed and ruined.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] You know, that's kind of the fear and the terror that the non believer feels. And then the believer's like, oh my gosh, I don't want my kids around my non believing spouse because if he or she's ever alone with them, then he's gonna nitpick their faith and sit down. He's gonna brainwash them and brainwash them out of the church, away from the truth.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] And so both are like, the kids become footballs in this nasty football slash tug of war where both are trying to, you know, the believers trying to take the kids to church, but the non believers trying to keep the kids out of church. And both are like petrified. And, and it not only negatively impacts the marriage, which is bad for them, but it also stresses the kids out, and it's bad for the kids, so it's bad for everyone. So can you guys relate to those fears? And if so, how did you guys work through them?

Polly Brown [00:15:24] Yeah, I can do it. And I think the one thing that we do that helps us so much, we learn from you and Margi. We sat down as a family and did our values because I loved the church and what they taught, and Justin didn't like so much of what they taught, but we still had a value system that we shared. And so we thought, let's list our values. And a lot of them are things the kids are learning in primary, like, be kind, be loving. And that helped us a lot to get our values down. And then I think it made us both feel good to be like, okay, we're still on the same page. Yeah, we want this for our family. You know, take church out of it. This is what we want.

Justin Brown [00:16:12] So a really good example, if I can interrupt, was instead of saying by values, it wasn't we value the word of wisdom. It was we value being healthy.

Polly Brown [00:16:21] Right, Right.

Justin Brown [00:16:22] And so then we would define what that meant to be healthy, which is lots of sleep and good food and not bad foods.

Polly Brown [00:16:30] Right.

Justin Brown [00:16:30] And that worked because lo and behold, we agree on that, you know?

Polly Brown [00:16:36] Yeah. So that was good advice. Kind of sit down. Our values.

Justin Brown [00:16:40] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:16:40] Yeah, it was.

Justin Brown [00:16:41] And. And you know what? We never. We've. I don't think we, either of us have ever felt or have used the kids that way. The kids haven't become that proverbial football.

Polly Brown [00:16:51] No, but it. I can't imagine dragging a teenager to church that doesn't want to go, like, I could. I wouldn't do it. But that is hard.

Justin Brown [00:17:00] That's hard.

Polly Brown [00:17:00] So we. I know that we have our value system as a family, and that makes me feel good. If I do end up going alone, then I guess I go alone. Yeah. I'm not gonna force my kid to go, you know.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] So, yeah, the values thing is so important because it's so easy to. To get focused as a couple on what. Where you disagree, where you don't share beliefs. And the truth is 95%. You know, maybe. Maybe a non believer will want to try beer or alcohol a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] You know, maybe. Maybe they'll stop believing in God or Jesus, you know, which seems like a huge deal. But if you think about the really crucial things in a marriage, honesty, kind of. I've never met a post Mormon that's like, yeah, I don't believe in Honesty anymore or yeah, I don't believe in fidelity or chastity anymore. I mean, people become unfaithful, but even then they're like, not like I believe in lying, they're just like, oh, I screwed up or oh, I lost my way or you know, whatever it is. But you know, everyone's still the same people. They still believe in honesty, kindness, service, love, fun, physical health, mental health, family, kids.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] You're still functionally the same people, belief or not belief. And if you only focus on your differences about Joseph, differences about the Book of Mormon and differences about church attendance, then yeah, there's nothing to build a marriage on. But if you focus, if you take the time to do a values inventory individually, then merge your values and then have that be like your own family's proclamation of what your family is going to stand for, then you've got something to build on and you've got something that you share and you'll find with the concentric circles or the Venn diagram that you're really 95% where you were on what's really important in terms of living a good life.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] Because really you think, oh well, if believing in God and Jesus in the Book of Mormon is everything. Well, no, what if the person believes in God and Jesus in the Book of Mormon but they cheat on their spouse or they lie, you know, or they steal from their neighbor or they beat the kids or they sexually abuse somebody? What good is the belief of God in Jesus in the Book of Mormon if the person's a scoundrel? Would you rather be married to a non believer who is a stand up, awesome human or do you want someone who believes that God and Jesus, the Book of Mormon that's sexually abusing and beating everybody?

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Like obviously I'm making extremes there, but I hope the point I'm making gets across that A, you actually do have a lot in common, B, you need to get centered around that and C, if you do, you still have a wonderful life you can build together.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] And not only is it possible to overcome these differences, this maybe we'll get to at the end. Sometimes those differences can actually enhance the marriage for sure. But we don't have to jump to that yet. But I just want to reinforce this idea of values. We talked about it with Cody and Leah Young. A lot of people like that. But Natasha and I have been talking values for years.

Polly Brown [00:19:58] It was great and I think getting out of the mindset, the Mormon, what you're drilled as a kid, like you have to marry a member. This is the way. This is the path. This is what you do. I think once you can step back and accept your spouse for who you know, that person that you married, you didn't marry the church. I married this person.

Justin Brown [00:20:19] Right.

Polly Brown [00:20:20] Then you get those values down and you're like, oh, we're still together. We're still us. This is us. This is what we believe together. It was big. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] And you've already kind of touched on this, Polly. Like, there's the non believer wanting to yank the kids out of church, and there's a believer wanting to keep the kids in the church. I like to advise mixed faith couples that both need to chill out. Yeah, that both.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] If you get stressed out about pulling your kids towards your way, number one, you. You risk inciting what's called the backfire effect, where it's like, well, mom was so stressed out about me being in church all the time, and it caused so much stress in the marriage. I didn't want to be a Mormon anymore because Mormonism was making our family miserable. Right. So it undermines the position of the believer to, like, try to be forcing the kids to go in the church or to have belief be a wedge in the marriage.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] But it's the same thing. Like, if the non believer's angry and bitter and frustrated all the time and negative and critical and all that, like, the believer's gonna go like, the kids are gonna go like, well, I don't want to be like dad or mom who's miserable and angry and critical all the time. I better stay faithful to the church because otherwise, like, you know, I don't want to end up like that unpleasant, mean, nasty person. And so you, you, number one, you risk the backfire effect if you really try and pull your kids. Either way, belief in non belief is a very personal, sacred thing.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] And ultimately, believing Mormons should believe in free agency and choice because that's kind of war in heaven. Remember that. And non believers should just not be the monster that they feel like they ran from. Who wants compulsion, who wants to be judged? Who wants to feel like love is conditional? And if you as the non believing parent are sending that message to your kids that you won't love them if they believe that you judge them, if they believe that you won't treat them as well, what kind of person are you being? So there's that and then there's the other thing, which is take your worst nightmare as a believing or a non believing parent, which is if you're a believer, it's like, oh, my, gosh my kids will leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] And if you're a non believer, it's like, oh my gosh, my kids will be raised in an unhealthy church or a cult. I can promise you that there's something far worse than either of those worst case scenarios and that's your kids being raised in a home where your parents are fighting all the time. Right. And where there's negativity and tension and stress. That's more harmful to kids, I would argue, than being raised in Mormonism or, or being raised outside of Mormonism. So freaking chill out. Have a home based on love, unconditional love and kindness and just let the kids do what the kids want to do. Now. I really apologize, Justin, because, you know, you said you were talking a lot. I've just kind of taken.

Justin Brown [00:23:28] No, no, no, no. You're doing great.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] So you guys, you guys fill in.

Polly Brown [00:23:31] Am I really loved what you're talking about?

Justin Brown [00:23:33] You're absolutely right. Yeah, Yeah. I think our kids are. I think you're right. I think that taking it slow. Paulie was so good about that to not get uptight. She just said, if the kids aren't going to go to church with me, I'm not going to force them. And I would never sit my kids down and tell them that, you know, that I think less of them or even try to, or even imply that I'm super careful about that with my kids. That. Look, we've got, we've got family who we love who still go to church every week. They're very active. They're follow the prophet type people. And we love them and our kids love them. And the last thing we would want to do is disparage those people in front of our kids. That's not healthy. So I think you're right.

Polly Brown [00:24:21] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] Anything else you want to add, Polly?

Polly Brown [00:24:28] No. Again with the Mormon pressure. I feel like. Oh, Atticus isn't learning the primary songs because we haven't been. You know, the guilt, like it's a lot.

Justin Brown [00:24:39] Yeah, yeah, I think it's. I would love to know what you think, but I think as time goes on and as, as we step outside of these boxes or these narratives that we've come to believe or have been taught our whole lives and we see that it's okay. It's. It's a liberating feeling. So we always joke about. Polly has a sweet family member who, when she found out I was drinking coffee, her response was something like, well, it's a slippery slope.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Right.

Justin Brown [00:25:12] And Paulie and I Are like, to what? To heroin?

Polly Brown [00:25:16] Where does it go?

Justin Brown [00:25:17] We both kind of laughed about it, but it's. We get it. We get why people feel that way. And then after a while it's like, oh, Justin had a beer the other night and he came home and like, slept next to me and like, we're healthy. And he woke up and went to work and he didn't beat the kids and he read with the boy, you know what I mean? And once you start to see those things that maybe there's another way to perceive these stories and to perceive what we do and what we don't do, then so, you know, Atticus isn't learning the primary songs and he's okay. He's actually really healthy and really smart and a really good kid. Right. Would you agree with all that?

Polly Brown [00:26:01] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:26:02] I want to know what you think.

Polly Brown [00:26:03] I do.

Justin Brown [00:26:03] Okay.

Polly Brown [00:26:04] It's. It's still hard, right?

John Dehlin [00:26:06] But yeah, someone might, Someone might be watching this. And if you. It sounds like maybe you guys probably are not attending all the time now and you're saying your kids aren't attending all the time. So, like, in some ways, you guys are like the perfect couple to have on because of how just elegant you both are and thoughtful and supportive and affirming of each other. Like, in many ways, this is the ideal story to share.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] But on the other hand, one of the things that the tendency people see is that for a mixed faith marriage to work, it's the believer that has to sacrifice, it's the believer that has to lose their faith, and it's the believer that's got to accommodate the non believer, and it's the kids who end up not going as a way to kind of make peace. And in that sense, and by the way, listeners, if you're concerned about that, which is totally normal, I'm going to bring in other couples where the believer or both the believer and the non believer are still attending and the kids are still going.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] So we will have those as well. Having said that, there's a lot to learn from every mixed faith couple, including this one. But. But Polly, for those who are like, yeah, of course you get along. Paulie sacrificed everything and she's given up on everything. And. And Justin's won. For those who are in that mindset, what would you say about that?

Polly Brown [00:27:28] Yeah, he did win. I quit. I'm just kidding. I do. And I think I did feel like that a lot. Like he goes through this change and it's me that suffers the consequences. Right. I lost the guy I married.

Polly Brown [00:27:45] I Lost my partner to go to church with. I lost. You know, there's a whole list of stuff, and that's totally not fair. And I eventually got over it, but it's hard. And because of our life and how we're traveling right now, church is on hold.

Polly Brown [00:28:03] I'm a Mormon. I still believe. But I will say I've been opened up to so many other things from you that I think I'm. I believe in a different way. Meaning I don't want my girls to go in an interview or my boys probably to even be interviewed unless an adult's with them. Yeah, you know, things like that. I don't believe how the church is with gay people. Like, I do not. I'm not okay with that. So I've got things that I'm struggling with, and you'd think it would push me away from the church, but it kind of makes me want to go back to reconcile what I'm thinking and see how I need to be.

Polly Brown [00:28:51] Does that make sense? I don't know. So, yes. I'm not currently going to church every Sunday right now, but on the road we will be going. Yeah, I want to go occasionally, but I also think we have this window where Justin doesn't go to the Mormon Church. Can I say Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:29:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Here you can.

Justin Brown [00:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] This is Mormon stories.

Polly Brown [00:29:10] He doesn't go to the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Change in a couple years.

Justin Brown [00:29:12] I know, but I have to.

Polly Brown [00:29:13] Well, we think that, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Yeah, we don't know for sure.

Polly Brown [00:29:16] We don't know. But I think Justin might want to go explore other churches while we're out and about, and I think that would be great to take the kids to go do you know, I just want them to have a platform of faith, something, a foundation as they grow up. I feel like me not going right now. And even when I do go, I don't know if they're going to go with me. It makes me feel bad that they don't have this foundation I had as a kid growing up in the church.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Well, let me ask you about that, Polly. So why are you not going? Why aren't you? Like, I'm going to go every Sunday because I've got to take the sacrament twice and go to the temple three times a week and pray and like, be take four callings so that I can get my husband and kids back. You know, sometimes there's this backfire effect where the believer actually becomes extra religious and extra participatory as a way to balance out the faithlessness. Of their partner. So why. And by the way, listeners, we're not recommending that the believer back out or stop going to church or back off.

Polly Brown [00:30:15] This is just our story.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] This is just one of many stories. I didn't cherry pick this for that reason. These are just lovely people I thought would be able to share good perspective. But, Polly, what's kept you from going hyperdrive in the other direction?

Polly Brown [00:30:30] I had moments where I did want to go hyperdrive, and I don't know if part of it was just to be a But to you and be like, I'm going to the temple tonight. You're watching the kids. You know, just.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Do you still believe?

Polly Brown [00:30:40] So, I mean, I do, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] Would it also be sincere like you?

Polly Brown [00:30:44] Yeah, it would.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] So why haven't you.

Polly Brown [00:30:46] I don't know if I want to go to the temple without you. You know, like, I love the temple, and you used to enjoy going, and I don't know if I want to go by myself, So I haven't gone to the temple in a while. In church, it's the same thing. Like, I'm just. I don't know. I just got to get over this. But I don't know if I want to go alone.

Justin Brown [00:31:16] That's fair.

Polly Brown [00:31:16] And I don't even want to ask you to go with me because I know how much you don't want to be there, so that wouldn't be fair to you.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] Do you miss it, Polly? Do you miss the temple?

Polly Brown [00:31:27] Yeah, I do. It's funny, so many people have such a hard time with the temple, but I've always just loved it. And I think it's because I enjoy older things and tradition, and when I think of it that way, I think, oh, this is just. I just love it. Yeah, I do. So that's hard for me. But with our lifestyle right now, with us traveling, it really is hard to go to a church every Sunday. Like, we're going to be in the middle of nowhere in a national park campground, and it's hard. So I think if we can hit it once a month, I. I feel like that's possible. Does that make sense?

Justin Brown [00:32:05] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] But you do miss it.

Polly Brown [00:32:07] I do.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] Yeah, I do. You miss having a calling and all that stuff?

Polly Brown [00:32:11] Oh, I'm kind of funny with colleagues.

Justin Brown [00:32:15] She said no to calling.

Polly Brown [00:32:16] Totally okay to say no to callings. You know, that's just me. But plenty I said yes to. Sure. And I'm okay without a calling. I'm. I love to sit and learn and listen and be with people, you know? Stay all mom. Sometimes. Sunday is your social hour, Right. You get to sit with other moms and ladies in your neighborhood and chat.

Justin Brown [00:32:39] And we definitely miss. I think we miss that part of it.

Polly Brown [00:32:43] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:32:43] The community side of it.

Polly Brown [00:32:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Okay, I'm gonna come back to you, Polly. But, Justin, let me just say to you, like, I understand the anger phase where you're like, burn it all down and it betrayed me and it lied to me and I can't go. It hurts me to go to church and it's too stressful. Sure. But usually post Mormons work through that and they get to the point where it's like, oh, the church is like any other church. And Catholics go and they don't believe, and Presbyterians go and they don't believe, and Jews go.

Justin Brown [00:33:09] Atheist Jews. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] So, like, I, you know, there are my. I think my brother does this with his believing wife, where it's just like, hey, I'll. I'll go sometimes I'll go. And then it's like one week on, one week off or once a month or whatever it is. Have you thought about. Are you in a place where you're able to go with.

Justin Brown [00:33:26] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] Without it being unhealthy for you or, you know, make you too angry? And if you thought about sometimes going just so she can enjoy it, just for sure. As an act of service, and now it's only two hours instead of three.

Justin Brown [00:33:40] Yeah, that's a really good point.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Have you thought about that? And I'm not trying to pressure you.

Justin Brown [00:33:44] No, no, no, Absolutely. And I think I'm glad you brought it up, because for a long while, that's what we did. The anger phase.

Polly Brown [00:33:51] For me, he's over that. And it is true.

Justin Brown [00:33:54] It is true. You go through that. Yeah. But that was a long time ago for me. I haven't been angry about the church. There are some times when I'm like, holy, you know, I'll get pissed. I got pissed once when. When they decided that they couldn't call themselves Mormons, that we. We can't call ourselves Mormons anymore. And I. What helped me through the anger phase was I wrote an article and sent it to the Tribune and they published it.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] Nice.

Justin Brown [00:34:15] It's called Call Me Mormon. You can look it up. It's pretty cool. I'm like, wait, hold on. My dad was a Mormon and he's dead now. Like, I'm a Mormon. We're Mormons. Like, that's what we are. Anyway, so I wrote an article.

John Dehlin [00:34:27] The non believers written that article.

Justin Brown [00:34:28] Oh, dude. I was Like, I'm. I'll ardently defend that. We are Mormons as a people. So anyway, the good and the bad, aren't we? Yeah, ethnically, that's what we are. You'll have to readily. Socially, absolutely. And the good and the bad, we've got some bad history. We've got some good history, some bad people. Some good people just take it as it is. So anyway, I did get angry sometimes, but I normally don't anymore. And we went to church, so I was not believing for a long time and was teaching gospel doctrine. And I was clear about that with my bishop. He was an awesome guy. Love him. Just told him, hey, yeah, this calling sounds awesome, sounds fun, I'll do it. But you gotta know that, you know, and I have tattoos now. And I'm like, you have to know that I'm how I feel about some of this stuff.

Polly Brown [00:35:20] He was like, wait, this was stressful because I'm sitting in the class in the front row, like, that's enough.

Justin Brown [00:35:26] Yeah. She would give me the signal, like when I was pushing it, slow down. But we did. We went to church at least probably two weeks out of every month with the exception of the summers, because we camp a lot and we like to get out a lot. But so we did that for a long time. And I. And I. A lot of that was cause I knew Paulie wanted to be there.

Polly Brown [00:35:45] And then it got to the point Justin would go to sacrament with us and then he'd go in the car.

Justin Brown [00:35:49] Yeah, I just got a lot more out of reading a good book during Sunday school. I just got more out of that. So I would do that. But we went, and I'm still totally opening, open to going. Paulie hasn't if. And you said that, you know, you don't want to ask because you don't think it would be fair, but we've

Polly Brown [00:36:04] talked about it and I've seen we still need therapy.

Justin Brown [00:36:07] I mean, come on. I've made it clear that if Polly asks, I'll absolutely go. But to your point, is it healthy every week? No, there's no way I'm not going to church every week. But will I go a couple times a month or once a month or whenever Polly asks? Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] And Polly, not to put this on you, but like, why aren't you just saying, hey, Justin, come every other week with me. It would mean a lot to me. I want to go. Or is there a part of you that's enjoy not going? Or does going to church as a believer just make you sick? Sad that it's like a continual reminder that you don't have the marriage that the church wants you to have. Like, I can see, like, I know gay people that still believe. And so it's like.

Polly Brown [00:36:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] It's like going to church for them is even worse because it's just a reminder that they're a scourge of the earth. Like, church can be painful even as a believer, because you're not living the ideal. And sometimes we feel in the church culture that if we're not living the ideal, there's not a place for us, or at least it makes us miserable because we just continually feel bad.

Polly Brown [00:37:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] I don't want to.

Polly Brown [00:37:19] I think it's a little bit of everything. I think it's a little bit of everything. Yeah. I will say, for 15 years, we had nine o' clock church. Yeah. And that's rough. It's really nice to have a little break. We sold our house, so we're not in our neighborhood. And our wardrobe, we're kind of traveling at the moment. So we don't have, like a base camp. I guess we don't have a home ward.

Justin Brown [00:37:42] Right.

Polly Brown [00:37:44] I guess that's my excuse.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] Okay.

Polly Brown [00:37:48] But I should just be brave and tell you I want to go and just go.

Justin Brown [00:37:52] Yeah, I'm open to it. I think it's also been cool that we've had some amazing Sundays without going to church.

Polly Brown [00:38:00] We have. We really have family Day.

Justin Brown [00:38:02] We go do some amazing things together. Because we don't have to go to church and we don't have. I mean, it's stressful getting ready and going to church. It is stressful getting dressed, getting kids dressed, getting up. I mean, I think that. I think that we don't. There's a lot of times when both of us don't miss that. I know there's a lot that you do miss, but that I don't miss. And I think sometimes you've expressed to me, oh, it's so nice that we're in the canyon today, enjoying the snow or the sun and not, you know, in the church.

Polly Brown [00:38:36] Yeah. So I say I'm floating a lot. I'm trying to figure out not only what I want, but what I need for myself.

Justin Brown [00:38:43] Sure.

Polly Brown [00:38:43] You know, whether that's I can go by myself and that's enough for me, or I should ask you and drag the kids, or. I mean, I say this. I was so patient and I was supportive of Justin for how many years as you went through all this, and I feel like now it's my turn Like a lot has changed with our dynamic in church. I gotta figure out what will work for me.

Justin Brown [00:39:06] Be patient for yourself.

Polly Brown [00:39:07] Yeah. Cause it's for me. Whereas I've been so focused on you and what do you need? And we can go every other week. Cause it's too much for you. And you know, I just, it's. Now it's my turn. Right. So I'm just kind of figuring out what you want. What I want and need.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because on the one hand, it's bad for the non believer if the believer isn't affirming and supportive. And Polly, it sounds like you, you've just, you hit the 99th percentile, a plus range of being loving and supportive and understanding of your spouse. Non believing spouse, which is laudable. But if I'm a coach or therapist for both of you, then I'm like, well, the believer shouldn't be the one making all the sacrifices. They shouldn't be the one stuffing what's really important to them. They shouldn't be the ones sacrificing all the things that are important to them. Because over time you, you just are, you know, it's not good to feel awful about being the only one making the sacrifices and then you start self medicating in whatever way you prefer to self medicate because it's just not fun or healthy to always be the one sacrificing, you know, and to not have you time like you said to not.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] So I mean, like, am I hearing you say that maybe now that you guys have gone through some of the hard stuff, you're feeling like you're in a comfortable place together, that maybe there'll be a renaissance of your faith or church participation in some way?

Polly Brown [00:40:31] Yeah, yeah, that's my plan. That's what I said. This trip, this year that we're taking off in the bus and traveling, I'm like, this is gonna be my year where I figure out, I guess who I am and what I need. Because you know, when you're, I mean, we're a we and we've always been a we with everything, but now that we're not a we with the church, I've gotta figure out me, you know? And I don't know if it's a church thing or a me thing, but I'm a people pleaser, you know, I want to make sure everyone's taken care of, everyone's fed, everyone's happy, everyone's got what they need. And I guess I gotta focus on me now.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] So yeah, I want to bring you guys back in here to see where you guys are.

Polly Brown [00:41:11] Yeah, see where we are.

Justin Brown [00:41:12] It'll be fun.

Polly Brown [00:41:13] Yeah.

Church Attendance, Identity, and Belonging

John Dehlin [00:41:14] Let me ask you another question, Polly. So, so there's the kind of orthodox Mormon narrative which is basically, you know, you're temple married. That's the most important. Who you marry and where you marry is the most important decision you ever make. You know, that's the plan. It's essential for your kids. No empty chairs in the celestial kingdom. But also like, you only go to the celestial kingdom if you're both sealed and word worthy. And so like there's this whole Mormon and there's just the fact that the most wicked people are not the people who are never Mormon. In Mormonism, the most wicked people are the people who believed and then fell away.

Justin Brown [00:41:57] The apostates, sons of perdition.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Like who goes to outer darkness? It's the people that believed and then stopped believing. The ones who denied the Holy Ghost.

Justin Brown [00:42:05] Justin and John.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] Yeah, exactly. We're the bad guys. So there's all this Mormon orthodox Mormon doctrine and theology, which is just like sad heaven for you. Like, you're just sad heaven. You're not going to be sad heaven. Maybe you'll make the lower degree of the celestial kingdom because you stay faithful if you go back to church, by the way, and keep paying your tithing and doing all the good things. But you won't be exalted in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom unless you're sealed to a faithful spouse, which means you're either going to be a handmaiden, kind of serving other faithful couples in a lower degree of the celestial kingdom, or you're going to have to bail on your husband and get sealed to somebody else.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] Now that's kind of. And maybe Mormons are going to disagree with my interpretation of Mormon theology. I was Mormon quite a long time, so I think I got some of that right. But like, that's my understanding of kind of like hardcore orthodox. Bruce Armaconki, Joseph Fielding Smith. Mormon doctrine has your faith, your beliefs, your level of orthodoxy versus liberalism in terms of theology and doctrine and heaven and judgment have they had to change so that you're just not like miserable and depressed all the time.

Polly Brown [00:43:29] Right. And I don't want a sad heaven. That does not sound so, you know,

John Dehlin [00:43:34] and there's this cognitive dissonance theory which is if your beliefs don't line up with your perception of reality, you either change your perception of reality or you change your beliefs.

Polly Brown [00:43:44] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] You don't want to live with that dissonance. Have your beliefs, even though you still remain, you identify as a believer. Have some of these doctrinal beliefs and theological beliefs changed? And if so, are you comfortable sharing?

Polly Brown [00:43:59] Yeah. That's interesting. And that. Yeah, I think when Justin, like, was, you know, toward the end where he was pretty much out was hard for me, but I don't think I ever thought that we wouldn't be together.

Justin Brown [00:44:18] You didn't buy that?

Polly Brown [00:44:20] No.

Justin Brown [00:44:20] Belief.

Polly Brown [00:44:20] But I don't know if I ever have. I have a lot of close friends who aren't members and family members. And I just believe God is good. And I don't think that he wouldn't let me be with my family.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] So I don't maybe let you be with your family. But you can visit your family in the kingdom, but you won't be exalted in the highest.

Polly Brown [00:44:42] Maybe I'll come visit you, come down

Justin Brown [00:44:44] and hang out with all the plebes.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] No, but what about like, we're supposed to become exalted and become God someday?

Polly Brown [00:44:51] Yeah. And I think we will. I hope so. And I don't.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] So maybe Justin will believe again when

Polly Brown [00:44:58] he's on his deathbed. He will be re baptized.

Justin Brown [00:45:01] Either that or you'll have to marry some other Mormon dude.

Polly Brown [00:45:04] Oh, I could do that.

Justin Brown [00:45:05] Brigham.

Polly Brown [00:45:05] I can be still.

Justin Brown [00:45:06] Which one would you marry?

Polly Brown [00:45:09] I don't know. I've just never stressed about that. I feel like God is good and he has a good heart and it will be okay.

Justin Brown [00:45:16] So you don't believe that or do you?

Polly Brown [00:45:18] I guess I don't believe that we will be separated. I think we will all just be together.

Justin Brown [00:45:23] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:45:23] And there will be cookies and puppies and, you know,

Justin Brown [00:45:29] so you know what she's. You know what I think is so awesome? Something that we also. We keep. We keep kind of applauding you guys. John. But we were at a session with you and Margi and Paulie was talking about this and she's like, yeah, but then I feel like I'm just picking and choosing what I want.

Polly Brown [00:45:45] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:45:45] What works for me.

Polly Brown [00:45:46] Your buffet. Isn't that what you're saying?

Justin Brown [00:45:47] And you pointed at her and you were like, that's what religion should be. Right.

Polly Brown [00:45:51] But.

Justin Brown [00:45:52] And. And that's kind of what.

Polly Brown [00:45:53] That's what I become.

Justin Brown [00:45:54] It's like buffet Mormonism.

Polly Brown [00:45:55] Like, do you want this calling? No. Do you want that calling? Sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Justin Brown [00:46:01] So you've made it work.

Polly Brown [00:46:04] Yeah. And maybe I'm just a bad Mormon, but.

Justin Brown [00:46:07] Okay, so I'll give an example where I think your faith has changed. Interviewing kids, worthiness interviews.

Polly Brown [00:46:15] But we said this even before.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:46:17] That we would be in there. But do we feel good about the bishop asking our kids if they're worthy?

Polly Brown [00:46:23] Not after listening to Natasha. No. You know, it's kind of.

Justin Brown [00:46:27] See, that's. That's a phase.

Polly Brown [00:46:28] I guess I've changed.

Justin Brown [00:46:29] Yeah. What about, like, how do you feel about blacks in the priesthood?

Polly Brown [00:46:33] Well, we adopted a black boy, and I don't. That's crazy. I mean, you've heard about the blacks in the priesthood for years, but it just kind of is what it is. And now that I have a black son, it's like the mama bear comes out.

Justin Brown [00:46:48] Yeah.

Polly Brown [00:46:48] And.

Justin Brown [00:46:49] And it's not okay.

Polly Brown [00:46:50] It's hard, but I'm okay. I'm okay with not being okay with a few things.

Justin Brown [00:46:54] Right.

Polly Brown [00:46:55] To me. So I not worried that Justin's not a member and I am. Even though we're sealed and all this and he's broken all these deals, I still think I feel okay about the afterlife. How's that?

John Dehlin [00:47:11] That's great. And it's not like with the buffet thing or the cafeteria Mormon thing. Like, I'm trying to encourage people to lower their beliefs or lower their commitment to the church.

Polly Brown [00:47:21] You made me feel like it was okay, that it was okay that I take what I need and love. Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Well, here's the way I think about it. And, you know, believers, forgive me that I'm an apostate and I'm giving you things to think about, but it's really hard to maintain an orthodox belief in 2019. And honestly, if I were to give you advice, a believer, about how to stay in the church, it's to become flexible about your beliefs, just like we talked about flexibility earlier. But if you are a rigid believer in Mormonism in 2019, good luck. You really are risking this sort of rigidity that's going to implode because the church is changing a mile a minute these days. And if, you know, you just look at the gospel topics essays, and yesterday's apostasy is today's gospel topic discussion.

Polly Brown [00:48:11] Totally.

Justin Brown [00:48:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] And, you know, yesterday's temple ceremony has changed and today's temple ceremony is different. And yesterday's view on the Book of Abraham or the Book of Mormon is different than today's view. And what yesterday's prophets and apostles said today is being overturned. Like, I'm not saying there isn't truth and that there isn't, you know, important things or even just like, BYU didn't have caffeine and now they are okay with Caffeine, like, you know, the church was really against marijuana or coffee and now it looks like they may be softening on some of these things. Like if you think that you're going to hold to like 1960 or 1970s correlation era doctrine or dogma or theology, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment and failure.

Polly Brown [00:48:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] So on the one hand I've always felt that. Yeah. So on the one hand I think it's good for you believer to realize that the church changes, prophets make mistakes, that your beliefs can be flexible. Because otherwise I think good luck like you said Justin, with your beliefs. So that's one thing, but also like just with the behavior. Not just beliefs, but behavior. There's a lot of people, it's impossible to do everything that orthodox Mormonism expects of you. Have a garden, write in your journal, daily prayer, temple attendance, all the time, magnify all your callings, pay all this money. Like nobody lives at all either people, you know, nobody lives the word of wisdom fully, eat meat sparingly. Like.

Polly Brown [00:49:40] Yeah, I'm the only one that admits it, right?

John Dehlin [00:49:43] Yeah, yeah.

Polly Brown [00:49:44] It's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Yeah. And that's all I was saying. Is it not, it's not that. Pick and choose what you want. Be a, be a lazy, don't be committed to anything.

Justin Brown [00:49:53] Yeah, you know, I'm not saying that,

John Dehlin [00:49:54] I'm just saying like be flexible with your. Be, be loving with yourself if you can't live up to everything. Because that's pretty much every Mormon there is, including apostles and wives of apostles and family members of apostles. So like cut yourself some slack if you can't do it all because everybody's picking and choosing what they're going to do and what they're not going to do. And then be flexible with your beliefs because if you don't, you know, yeah. You can divorce your non believing spouse and try and find some worthy divorcee on the market who's gonna love your kids as much as your non believing spouse.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] Good luck with that. I mean it's possible, but it's hard. But then who's to say they will lose their faith later, right? So you may as well just stick with the integrity, stick with the character, stick with the good person. Become flexible in your theology and doctrine so that you could freaking survive this world as a believer. I don't know.

Polly Brown [00:50:49] Totally.

Justin Brown [00:50:50] Yeah, I think we agree with that. I think we used to always talk about that. Don't stake your faith on these things that are so tenuous. Like that everything the prophet says from the pulpit is doctrine. Because if you look, you don't have to look far, you're going to find things that the prophet said that. That we absolutely do not believe anymore from the pulpit.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Yeah, right.

Polly Brown [00:51:15] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:51:17] So I think that's really smart.

Polly Brown [00:51:18] And it's a demanding religion, you know, it really is. And there's a lot of mom guilt, I feel like, from it.

Justin Brown [00:51:27] Oh, yeah.

Polly Brown [00:51:28] And I'm trying to focus on what I believe, what makes me happy, what makes me feel good, you know, and just try to let the other things.

Justin Brown [00:51:38] So you know, what we all do

Polly Brown [00:51:39] not only fall, but, like. I don't know, I just. I'm okay to say no to a calling. I mean, some people that might be like, heresy.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] Blasphemy.

Polly Brown [00:51:49] Yes.

Justin Brown [00:51:49] But I have a good example of what you've done to kind of work through this. For our whole family, we've done this, but you specifically. So that time when I met with Grant Palmer, he was. I was trying to find reasons to stay in the church at that point, and my buddy was like, I don't buy any of this anymore. And Grant Palmer gave us both some really good advice. He said, I always talk about this because it really helped me. He said, it's okay if you leave the church, but you have got to replace it with something else. You've got to fill that void.

Justin Brown [00:52:21] And Paulie does that. Like, we have this thing that I think your sister started and Paulie insisted that we start doing it. Every night when we have dinner together, we do this highs and lows thing where the kids go around the table and they each. We each talk about what was our high for the day and what was our low for the day. And that's kind of come in place of all the other stuff that we used to feel like we always had to do for the church.

Justin Brown [00:52:47] That's the biggest thing that I've noticed is that not just me, but you and me, we both have found space to do other things.

Polly Brown [00:52:56] Yeah. I mean, you had demanding callings.

Justin Brown [00:52:58] Totally.

Polly Brown [00:52:59] You were gone a lot, right? Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:53:01] Young men's is crazy.

Polly Brown [00:53:02] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:53:03] You're always gone. And elders quorum, it's. That's crazy. High priest group, like, I was in. That was my last calling, was high priest group leadership. And it's in a ward with a lot of older people, for sure.

Polly Brown [00:53:14] The youngest high priest.

Justin Brown [00:53:15] Oh, yeah. Maybe I don't.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] You've been in a bishopric or.

Justin Brown [00:53:18] No, they just called me. Maybe they wanted to keep me in the church. I don't know. But they called me and I did it and it was, it was fun. But it's true. It's demanding.

Polly Brown [00:53:26] It is demanding.

Justin Brown [00:53:27] And in the absence of some of that, there's space to do other things.

Polly Brown [00:53:31] Yeah. Focus on our values and even to

Justin Brown [00:53:33] just clear your mind to think about doing other things, like highs and lows around the dinner table or that we're not going to go to this. You know, we used to go to the Calvary Baptist Church.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] That's a great. It's a great church.

Polly Brown [00:53:48] That one's fun. We want. We go there. So Ziggy's around black people because we live in Utah, you know, and it. Then you go back to our church and my boy's like, where's the band? And I'm like, there's no band here. Sorry, buddy. But yeah, I feel like we're very open minded with stuff like that. Like, we're willing to go to other churches for our kids.

Justin Brown [00:54:06] But my point is, is that in the absence of some of the rigidity of the LDS church, we're free to go and explore new possibilities. Yes.

Polly Brown [00:54:14] And we're together more.

Justin Brown [00:54:15] We are together more.

Polly Brown [00:54:17] I mean, with me still going to church, I never had demanding callings. But you did. Right. So it definitely.

Justin Brown [00:54:24] We spend more time together.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] For sure.

Polly Brown [00:54:25] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:54:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] So that's something I alluded to earlier at the beginning. Like, is it possible? Like, for many people, the mixed faith marriage is the biggest nightmare they've ever experienced. But I've seen it lead to actually stronger, healthier relationships where having all these problems force you to talk about things, force you to listen to each other, force you to become more empathetic, force you to dig deeper about what really united you, and then force you to kind of give and take and then also to be respectful and then to develop your own traditions and your own way of doing things that's just more personal and is a lot less rigid or impersonal or kind of scripted. Outsourced or scripted.

Polly Brown [00:55:11] Yeah.

Growth in Emotional Intimacy and Relationship Health

John Dehlin [00:55:11] And so I'm not trying to like plant this or project, but if you guys had to give an assessment of your level of intimacy, emotional intimacy, which I think is the great barometer of a healthy marriage. If you had to rate your emotional intimacy now, your level of commitment, your level of connection, and just your overall level of family joy now, how would you rate it? It's kind of a stacked question because of course you're not going to go.

Justin Brown [00:55:36] So do you want. Should we see. Should we, like, write it down and see if we both have the same answer?

Polly Brown [00:55:42] You go first.

Justin Brown [00:55:43] I Think. No question. Paulie and I are closer and healthier than we've ever been.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] That's how you feel, Justin?

Justin Brown [00:55:49] I do. How?

John Dehlin [00:55:50] Why? Okay, so there's this perception of Mormonism that wickedness never was happiness. And you know what. What is wickedness, other than someone leaving the Church? Right. That is the epitome of wickedness. Besides, like, maybe. No, that's probably the epitome of wickedness now. They think about it. So, like, how could it possibly.

Justin Brown [00:56:10] Because you're denying the spirit, right, at that point. Well, because we are. We do have more emotional intimacy with each other. And precisely because of the things that you just mentioned, we've had to do the work. We went to a Mormon stories conference for our anniversary. Like, we didn't go to the beach or whatever. We had to go. And that's like a therapy session. We did the work. We had to go learn about conditional love. I mean, of course we knew what conditional love was, but we had to go learn about it specifically as it relates to the church and to us. Because there was times when I was feeling conditionally loved, and I had to say that.

Justin Brown [00:56:50] There's a lot of work that went into this and all of that work. Fortunately, Polly leans into that. And as a result, most times, yeah, as a result, we have emotionally intimate conversations, and those conversations are the building blocks for love. Because you can't feel love unless you can be emotionally intimate. That's my. Maybe I'm sounding too forceful here, but I do. I feel like we're more emotionally intimate. I feel like we have more time together. I feel like the time that we do have together is better time.

Justin Brown [00:57:24] I feel like we are more authentic with ourselves and with each other, and that's very, very helpful. I didn't expect that actually to be as helpful as it is, but it is.

Polly Brown [00:57:36] It's.

Justin Brown [00:57:36] It's very helpful for me to be authentic with Polly. You know, like, for example, I swear a lot. I've always. I swear a lot. I always have. And Polly just leans into that. And it is okay with me being me.

Polly Brown [00:57:49] I know.

Justin Brown [00:57:50] Most of the time. I know. Anyway, we're. We're more emotionally intimate. I. I believe that. I think we have better, more quality time together. And what I was talking about a minute ago. We have more time to explore things together.

Justin Brown [00:58:04] So you don't realize it, or at least I didn't realize it, but the church consumes or consumed so much of my time and so much of our time, and not just physical time, but our bandwidth, our mental and our Emotional bandwidth because I was spending so much time gauging what I was doing against what I was supposed to be doing.

Justin Brown [00:58:28] And when that went away, suddenly we were free mentally to do so many other things or to think so many other things. A really good example. And I don't know if this is an appropriate time, but Paulie and I just started a podcast, and I don't know if anyone's ever gonna listen to our podcast. It's called Learning to Live. That's our podcast. We haven't even published it yet.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Talk about your. Your travel now.

Polly Brown [00:58:52] Okay, well, actually, no, wait, I gotta answer.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Let's have Polly answer, then we'll come back. But I.

Justin Brown [00:58:57] But the point of me saying that we started the podcast podcast is that we freed up some time to do that, and the result is that Paulie and I get together and have these emotionally intimate conversations with an imagined audience at this point, and it's awesome.

Polly Brown [00:59:12] It's fun.

Justin Brown [00:59:12] It's so healthy for us. Yeah, we wouldn't have done that before.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] New opportunities.

Polly Brown [00:59:16] Yeah.

Justin Brown [00:59:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:17] Really quickly. I'll just ask you one quick question, then I'll come back to you.

Justin Brown [00:59:20] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] Somebody would say, why would you ever stay faithful to your spouse once you leave the church?

Justin Brown [00:59:24] Like, oh, geez.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Well, so, like, what would your answer be to that? Like, you. Now, you. You don't believe in the. In the law of chastity, like, the church teaches it. Maybe you don't believe in anything anymore. And if you don't necessarily believe in heaven or conditional heaven, it's a fair question. Why. Why stay faithful? Why. Why aren't you just sleeping around all the time and. And abandoning your marriage?

Justin Brown [00:59:45] Because, yeah, it's a fair question. And I think that. Because I think a lot of people are afraid that that's what's going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Or why aren't you a drug addict or an alcoholic or beating your kids or all the.

Justin Brown [00:59:57] All the terrible things. Yeah, all the things. Yeah. Because that's not who I am. It's not who my parents raised me to be. It's not what I was taught to be. I believe that humans are fundamentally inherently good. And it probably takes some kind of impetus to. To induce people to do things that are bad or that are harmful. Now, I am not saying that those things are necessarily bad, but. And I will acknowledge that when some of those value systems fall away or when the foundation of that. What you thought was the foundation of that value system. So let's take affairs sleeping around when the foundation is, you're going to go to hell.

Justin Brown [01:00:43] If you do that, you're not going to make it to heaven. If you do that, when that foundation falls away. Because I no longer believe in hell. Right. I just don't believe that idea anymore. Well, then what does that mean? I'm free to, like, to sleep around now. And I will acknowledge that you have to kind of. That's Grant Palmer's quote. You got to replace it. And that's what I did. I just did the work. I just.

Justin Brown [01:01:09] I'm a journaler. I'm a writer, so I like to write stuff down. And I think a lot about stuff. I take time to do that. So I thought about these things and I thought, is that the kind of person I want to be? And what is the real reason that we don't have affairs? What is the real reason that fidelity is important?

Justin Brown [01:01:27] And it turns out that it's not for me, at least, it's not because there's hell. It's for me. It's because I don't want to hurt my wife and I don't want to hurt myself. And I don't want to cause any more trauma for my kids than they're already going to experience because of me, you know?

Justin Brown [01:01:47] And I could do that across the board with the values that I once believed or espoused or held because of the church. I've replaced those values with other things. Another example would be prayer. You know, I don't pray anymore. Very rarely, I don't pray anymore. I do family prayers, but I meditate. I have an almost daily meditative practice that's 10, 15 minutes.

Justin Brown [01:02:13] I like it better. Right. But I still replace that reflection and that introspection and that time to make myself better and to evaluate what I've done for the day and what I'm going to do tomorrow. So hopefully that answers your question.

Justin Brown [01:02:29] I get it. I get why people are afraid of that. I get that that might be a reality for some people, that they lose that value system. And then they do kind of go down this slippery slope, as it were, toward things that maybe they will regret one day, but it doesn't have to be that way. And I don't that that's not an issue for me. It's kind of like drinking. I'm okay to drink casually now and again, but I don't get drunk because that's not healthy. And that doesn't coincide with my values. And I know that some people would say, ah, it's okay to get drunk every once in a while.

Justin Brown [01:03:03] And I'd Say, yeah, you're probably right. But that's what, that's kind of what I've decided. Or my. I've defined my values, and I think that's why sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] And Polly, I swear we're coming right to you. Sometimes, though, like, when someone leaves a church, it's like, I gotta drink and I gotta try drugs, and I gotta consider swinging, and I've gotta, you know, get tattoos. And I'm not trying to say those are all the same, but I'm just saying, like, you want to experiment with all the things you didn't get to experiment on as an orthodox Mormon or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] And I'm always torn on that, because I don't think drinking is inherently immoral or even trying marijuana or whatever people do with consenting adults sexually. I guess, in theory, that's their business. So, on the one hand, I feel that way. On the other hand, and tattoos, my Mormon brain is like, oh, you're defiling the temple. But my daughter Maya has, like, 12 tattoos, you know, and she's lovely. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. So on the one hand, I want to be open and progressive in those ways. On the other hand, there's just this idea of, like, why change? Like, you've already, Justin, you've already broken the deal.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] You've already made things super hard. Why not just chill out on the alcohol or any of those other things, Tattoos, and just, like, minimize the stress and the hardship that you're, you know, inflicting upon your spouse. I don't mean to set it up that way, but, like, that's kind of

Justin Brown [01:04:31] the other side of it, I think, is what you're saying.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] Yeah. And there's kind of pacing that and, and minimize the distress and the disruption.

Justin Brown [01:04:37] Sure. And I'm glad that Paulie mentioned. I'm grateful that Paulie feels like I did kind of minimize that a little bit and take it slow. But, for example, I have tattoos. I love tattoos. I've always loved tattoos. I've always wanted to get a tattoo.

Polly Brown [01:04:50] I've never seen them.

Justin Brown [01:04:51] I won't look at them.

Polly Brown [01:04:52] Just kidding.

Justin Brown [01:04:53] I, I, I hear you. And I think that that's where you have to be. You got to take things slow.

Polly Brown [01:05:02] But there are times where I'm like, slow down.

Justin Brown [01:05:04] Right. Like, and I appreciate it because a lot, because I don't always know.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] So you listen to her when she.

Justin Brown [01:05:09] I try. I certainly try. And, and I think it's this fine balance between, am I gonna be cognizant of my spouse's Needs, my partner's needs. And I'm gonna listen to what she needs and what she wants. Absolutely. And I've gotta balance that with me claiming my own authority and with me being my own person. And that's hard. That is a hard thing to do. And I will say it's very liberating as you do it and as you figure out what works and what doesn't. But it is tough stuff.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] Okay. All right, Paulina, I promised I'd come to you. So. So is it possible that the marriage can improve even from the believer's perspective, when you know your marriage is entered into a mixed faith marriage? And I guess it's. It's an unfair question, because what are you going to say? No, it's worse. But you.

Polly Brown [01:05:58] Good.

John Dehlin [01:05:58] But, you know, you can say that Justin's giving you permission.

Polly Brown [01:06:01] There were times when it was not going well, for sure. It was too hard and broken and not on the plan, you know? But now I feel like we're in a good place. And I feel like you leaving made me realize that I love you for you, not because you checked my boxes. Right, right. Like you.

Justin Brown [01:06:26] When you say leaving, meaning my faith changed.

Polly Brown [01:06:28] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I wonder if we were both still in, like, what experiences or what changes in our lives would lead us to learn that. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's really cool that.

Justin Brown [01:06:42] Could we have learned it without is

Polly Brown [01:06:43] what you mean, But I don't know if we would have learned that without you leaving the church. The church has a plan and a path, and I don't know if we would have gone there. So as hard as it's been, I love that you are you and that I've got to, you know, be with you through this change and support you and see who you are and love who you are. And I do feel like we're closer because of that. Yeah. As hard as it's been, it's. There's so many good things that have come from it.

Justin Brown [01:07:16] Thank you.

Polly Brown [01:07:16] Don't you think?

Justin Brown [01:07:17] Absolutely.

Polly Brown [01:07:17] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:07:18] Very well said.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Wow. That's cool.

Polly Brown [01:07:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] And you're not sad, you know, like, sad life, sad heaven. That's not where you are.

Polly Brown [01:07:28] No. Sad heaven.

Justin Brown [01:07:29] I love that.

Polly Brown [01:07:30] I know.

Justin Brown [01:07:30] That's my next tattoo. We're gonna be saying that I'm going to sad heaven. Tattoo that somewhere.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] So it's not a sad life? No, I mean, the disappointing life.

Polly Brown [01:07:42] It had failure. It had times where I felt that at the beginning of this change that he was going through, there were definitely times I remember Sitting on the floor and just crying, like, now what. What do I do? What's gonna happen? It's scary. It's scary is what it is. But I feel like we've had help and tools and we've come to a place that works for us, and I. I don't know, I'm. I'm good with where we are, and sometimes I like that. Now it's my turn to focus. And maybe I do want to go to church by myself. Sure. Maybe I'll love it.

Justin Brown [01:08:17] Might be awesome with everybody else.

Polly Brown [01:08:18] Yeah. So I think what he's gone through is as hard as it's been, it's also been a good thing.

Justin Brown [01:08:25] Thank you.

Polly Brown [01:08:26] Yeah.

Advice for Mixed-Faith Couples

John Dehlin [01:08:27] How. How long did it take for you guys to be able to sort of say, whoa, this is actually starting to get better, Just so people can have a. Can have an understanding of kind of a reasonable timeline. Is it six months or.

Polly Brown [01:08:40] Well, you've been going through this for years, but I will say maybe the last two have been the hardest.

Justin Brown [01:08:45] You think?

Polly Brown [01:08:46] So what do you think as far as us marriage?

Justin Brown [01:08:49] I think because of other issues, because of some financial stuff, because of some family stuff. Yeah. I think we. The last couple years have been the most stressful on us.

Polly Brown [01:08:59] And maybe this just.

Justin Brown [01:09:01] But I don't think. I think that our relationship is hard. It's freaking hard.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] Especially in midlife.

Justin Brown [01:09:06] Yeah. Super hard. Right. But I think that our marriage has been stronger for at least two or three years now. I think it's.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] Which means it was hard for. Harder for how long?

Justin Brown [01:09:18] I think that our marriage was super hard from. For about a three, two or three year period.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] So don't expect. I mean, expect like six months or.

Justin Brown [01:09:30] Don't you think that's right? Have I got that wrong?

Polly Brown [01:09:32] No, I think you're right. But I also think, like, we went extra slow and maybe other couples don't need to do that like we did.

Justin Brown [01:09:38] Yeah. Like, I'll. I'll say, when things started feeling really good for me, at least in our marriage, was when Paulie and I were marching with Sam Young about, you know, closed doors, interviews with. Between bishops and kids, because I felt so aligned with Paulie because we. That was something that we could both get behind. And I felt. So we had Ziggy, our little boy, sealed to us in the temple. I was not a believer at that point, and that was an amazing experience.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] But you attended the temple as a non believer.

Justin Brown [01:10:08] Absolutely. And people are like, oh, you lied to get into the temple? And I'm like, yep, I guess So, I mean, that's the. That's the box that the church put me in. And I'm not going to deny that to my wife and to my family. And I can justify. I'm getting defensive. I can justify why that makes sense to me.

Polly Brown [01:10:27] And it was almost three years ago. I don't think I still have.

Justin Brown [01:10:30] I still had a lot of beliefs. But the point is, Paulie and I had some shared experiences together going through this. And once we started having those shared beliefs, shared values, shared experiences, like the Mormon Stories retreat was a big one. We just started getting along better.

Polly Brown [01:10:47] I feel like we started working together.

Justin Brown [01:10:49] Agreed.

Polly Brown [01:10:50] Maybe we realized you're going through this and it's not pointing at me.

Justin Brown [01:10:55] Right.

Polly Brown [01:10:56] And you're going through this, and I don't have to point it back at

Justin Brown [01:10:59] you, and this is hard for you, too.

Polly Brown [01:11:01] Yeah. Maybe we finally realized that and we just tried to work together and.

Justin Brown [01:11:05] But it was three years of. It was three hard years of work.

Polly Brown [01:11:10] Yep. Right.

Justin Brown [01:11:11] And I know some people do it way quicker.

Polly Brown [01:11:13] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:11:13] We have friends who have gone through it a little bit, and they just, like. They were like, that's it. I read the CES letter and I'm out. And the wife's like, yep, me too. I'm out. This is all bullshit. And they're like. And they're gone and they're fine. And it took them six months.

Polly Brown [01:11:27] Right.

Justin Brown [01:11:28] So for some people, it goes really fast.

Polly Brown [01:11:30] It's harder to stay than to leave. For sure.

Justin Brown [01:11:32] For me, for some people, yeah, I'm sure. Anyway. Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [01:11:36] Yeah.

Polly Brown [01:11:37] Are we just rambling?

John Dehlin [01:11:38] No, no, no. Not at all. I just wanted to let people know that it takes time.

Polly Brown [01:11:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] And the hard work takes time. And that maybe for some it's really quick, but most of the time it takes years. But it's worth it on the other side. That's what I'm saying. Don't ever let religion wreck your marriage.

Justin Brown [01:11:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] Believer or non believer?

Polly Brown [01:11:57] Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] If you're a non believer or a believer, don't give the church that much power to wreck your family, because families should come first really quickly. Polly, people are thinking about the kids. Like, are your kids okay? So many people cling to the church because they're like, my kids won't be moral, they won't be ethical, they won't be responsible. They won't have integrity. You mentioned sometimes being concerned about them not getting all the things that you got right. And what parents gonna say, yeah, my kids are a piece of work and they're. They're lost and fallen. But, I mean, for those who are like, oh, my gosh, this will destroy my kids.

Polly Brown [01:12:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:37] Are your kids destroyed?

Polly Brown [01:12:39] No. But I do feel that pressure. Yeah. They're doing well. I feel like I'm hoping on the road, and once we move and get back to, you know, our own home and all that, I'm hoping they'll want to go to church with me. But again, if they don't, I can't force it. But that just makes us have to work together as a team to set up our own values and what we're going to teach them instead of the church having it lined out for us.

Justin Brown [01:13:06] But, like, if we go through our kids, Ellie, Millie, Atticus, Ziggy, they're all crushing it.

Polly Brown [01:13:15] Yeah. They're good kids.

Justin Brown [01:13:16] They're all doing so well, don't you think?

Polly Brown [01:13:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kids are awesome.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:13:23] I think they're doing really well. And I think that you're right. We just kind of had to replace some of that value system. And we still teach our kids. We still talk to our kids. We still try to impress upon them what's. What we think is moral.

Polly Brown [01:13:35] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:13:35] And what we think is important.

Polly Brown [01:13:36] Yeah. And we still talk about with them, like, church.

Justin Brown [01:13:39] Absolutely.

Polly Brown [01:13:40] They, you know, they went to church for so long that they still know what it, you know, is about and what they believe, and they know what I believe and. Right. Yeah. They're okay.

Justin Brown [01:13:49] I actually think our kids are healthier, and I'm seeing it with our older kids.

Polly Brown [01:13:53] By taking a break.

Justin Brown [01:13:55] Yeah. Because I think what they're doing is they're learning in their own way how to think for themselves. And they're seeing us model or provide an example of, you can go and you cannot go, and you get to decide what works best for you. And if it's healthy to go, then go. And if it's not healthy to go, then don't. And I think they're learning that.

Polly Brown [01:14:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:17] Do you disagree, Paulie?

Polly Brown [01:14:19] No, I agree.

Justin Brown [01:14:21] Yeah.

Polly Brown [01:14:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:22] All right, so here's. Here's one for you, Justin.

Justin Brown [01:14:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] If. If your kids came to you and said, hey, dad, I'm going back to church. This church really means a lot to me. I want to serve a mission. I may want to get married in the temple. How would you respond to that?

Justin Brown [01:14:38] Well, I think I can. So we just were up in Logan a couple nights ago to see a photography exhibit, and we went and saw our niece, Paulie's oldest brother's daughter. She is so awesome. Right. And she's getting she's just anticipating her

Polly Brown [01:14:57] mission call any day.

Justin Brown [01:14:58] Any day. And she's so excited. And we took her to dinner just because we were up there and she was telling us about how excited she was, and I. I could feel nothing but happiness for her. You know, this is what she wants to do, and she's making this decision on her own, and I think it'll be good for her. And so I. She's not my kid, but I do love her, and she's our family's kid. And I think that if I extrapolate from her to my own kids, I think that I would approach that with some skepticism, but with an open mind.

Justin Brown [01:15:33] And I think it would be. I'm going to support what you ultimately want to do. And I would definitely ask some questions and make sure that they understood a few things without wrecking their faith or their belief or their decision, because I don't think that's fair. I think by the time a kid is that age, I think. I think it's crazy that they're sending kids at 18 now. I would hope that my kids would wait and go on a mission when they're 19 or 20. I went when I was 21, and it was really good for me to be older, but again, I'm not going to force that issue. I would encourage them to wait, but I would support it. I'd support what they're doing.

John Dehlin [01:16:16] Nice.

Polly Brown [01:16:17] What about temple marriage?

Justin Brown [01:16:18] Absolutely. Absolutely, I would support that. I would tell them my story, which is, hey, you want to know what I wish I did? I wish that I would have had a ring ceremony that was super special and super valuable.

Polly Brown [01:16:35] Well, the church does that now, right? Don't they do a separate. Or you can maybe.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] You have the option.

Polly Brown [01:16:39] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:16:39] Yeah. So, yeah, they changed it so that now you can get married in the temple the day that you got civilly married or the day after, I think, or something like that. And that's the way it's always been in other countries. It just wasn't that way here. And if we could go back and redo our wedding. We've talked about this. If I could go back, I would have got married civilly and had all my friends at our wedding and my family and your family who couldn't be there because they didn't believe in the church. And then I would have got sealed in the temple later when they allowed us to. So I would probably talk to my kids about that. But again, if Ellie or Millie, any of our kids, decided that they wanted to get married in the Temple the first time.

Polly Brown [01:17:18] Okay.

Justin Brown [01:17:19] I mean, I would respect that. I can still find value in those traditions and in those practices. I don't think they're all bad. I think there's some dangers and some pitfalls. But I think the cost benefit in the cost benefit analysis, the benefits can still outweigh the cost, depending on how you approach it. Is that fair? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:41] This may come as a surprise since I'm an evil, apostate, bad person, but I like to tell non believers all the time that there are so many worse things in the world than having your kid get married orthodox Mormon.

Polly Brown [01:17:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] And be married. The temple like it. Sometimes when you're in shock, you think it's the worst possible thing. But like, if all they are, you know, there are problems with Mormonism. Just like there's problems with nothing. There's problems. I mean, how many people convert to Mormonism or Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses? I mean, if you listen to the ex Scientologists or ex Jehovah's Witnesses that I've interviewed, so many of them were raised by atheist or agnostic parents. They have the secular home where they didn't get the upbringing that they made them feel full. And so they become fodder for freaking missionaries of other religious traditions or even cults. And so.

Justin Brown [01:18:32] That's so true.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Yeah. And so there's worse things, but also like, just, you know, if you think about it, of course there are people that get hurt in the church, but on average, you're a decent person. You're, you're, you listeners are probably pretty happy with how you turned out. Well, guess what? You were raised Mormon or you became Mormon or whatever. You know, that, you know, the average Mormon in my experience is honest, hardworking, kind, industrious, you know, successful. That's just my experience. So if that's what the road that your kids end up choosing, is that really the worst thing or, you know, are there a lot of other really awful things that could happen?

John Dehlin [01:19:13] So I just like to say, like, chill out. Let your kids have their own journey in or out of the church. Don't be, you know, Lucifer and try and control people's lives and take over their free agency and just be relaxed and everyone will end up where they are healthiest and happiest if they're just given unconditional love and support. So that's kind of. You're shaking your head.

Polly Brown [01:19:35] Yeah, I agree. No, I agree.

Justin Brown [01:19:37] She's nodding.

Polly Brown [01:19:37] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] Yeah, nodding your head. You like that? So tell us about what you this Little adventure you guys are doing. What the freak is up with that? And then come back to the podcast.

Life on the Road and Closing Reflections

Polly Brown [01:19:47] We're homeless.

Justin Brown [01:19:48] We live in a bus.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] We're homeless. You just sold your home to who?

Polly Brown [01:19:52] Natasha?

Justin Brown [01:19:53] Can we say that?

John Dehlin [01:19:53] Yes, we were.

Justin Brown [01:19:54] We're like. We're so excited that we sold our home to someone who's rad. Yeah, she's so rad. I mean, we love Natasha. We went over there to pick up some of our last things and went in the house, and she was in there, and we were like, shut your mouth. You're the buyer. Like, she gave us a big hug. We love her. She bought our house. So we sold our home.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] There must be a.

Justin Brown [01:20:16] God, there must be. It worked out. It can't be a coincidence, right?

Polly Brown [01:20:21] Just kidding.

Justin Brown [01:20:23] No, we've. I've always wanted to go to law school, and we decided about eight months, seven months ago this year, we decided that we were gonna do it, that I was gonna go to law school next year. And so it's a long story, but we just got into this position where it was like, okay, what are we gonna do? We're gonna have this space of time because of some business things and whatever, where we're just gonna be in between jobs, probably between law school and a

Polly Brown [01:20:50] job waiting to go to law school, hopefully out of state.

Justin Brown [01:20:52] So what we decided to do is sell our house and

Polly Brown [01:20:57] most of our

Justin Brown [01:20:58] stuff, and we got rid of all of our stuff.

John Dehlin [01:21:00] Minimalism. You minimalized?

Justin Brown [01:21:02] We did, yep.

Polly Brown [01:21:03] We were forced a little bit, but we loved it.

Justin Brown [01:21:06] We got rid of everything. Almost everything. And we. We. So. And we bought a bus. We bought a school bus.

Polly Brown [01:21:13] School bus that was turned into a tiny house. It's darling.

Justin Brown [01:21:17] We love it.

Polly Brown [01:21:18] We love it. And we're gonna take the kids around the country for a year.

Justin Brown [01:21:21] Yeah. We're homeschooling our kids right now.

Polly Brown [01:21:23] We've already been out for a few months, and we had to come back to do a few things, and then we're going back out.

Justin Brown [01:21:28] So we've spent two months. Ish. On the road. Hands down, best part of my adult life ever. Best part of my life.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] Me too. Really?

Justin Brown [01:21:37] It's the best.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] Are you still working or are you not working right now?

Justin Brown [01:21:39] I'm totally unemployed.

John Dehlin [01:21:41] Okay.

Justin Brown [01:21:42] I'm studying all day, every day for that lsat.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] I saw you freaking at the coffee shop. Shop. Studying your lsat.

Polly Brown [01:21:48] Just y. He's in his own.

Justin Brown [01:21:50] Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] It's shout out to three cups.

Polly Brown [01:21:52] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:21:53] Love those guys. It was. It's. It's a lot of work to study for the LSAT at our age. And it's. It takes a lot of time. So that's what we're doing. We talked about jobs. I think when the LSAT's done, I'll probably get some work, because that would be odd not to. For me. But at the same time, we're super busy. We. Paulie and I started a podcast, and we haven't published our first episode yet. I wish we would have. Um, we have an Instagram page that people can follow.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] We're.

Justin Brown [01:22:24] We're kind of posting the story. It's called. It's at Six of Us in a bus underscore number six. So the number six of us in a bus underscore we're the Brown family.

Polly Brown [01:22:34] Yep. And follow our journey. We'll link the podcast.

Justin Brown [01:22:38] Yeah, we're doing a podcast, and we're.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] What will the podcast be called?

Justin Brown [01:22:41] So the podcast is Learning to Live, and it's. It'll document a little bit of our journey. But more than that, we just found in those two months that we were out on the road that a. We know a lot of people who have amazing stories and amazing experiences, and they're professionals in their own right.

Polly Brown [01:22:59] Right.

Justin Brown [01:22:59] And we found out on the road that we were meeting people like that, and we just thought how fun it

Polly Brown [01:23:04] would be to be able to tell these stories.

Justin Brown [01:23:08] Yeah. And bring these people in to help us all learn how to live a little better. Because there's not really a manual to get through all this. And we just wanted. We just want to share the stories. Like, for example, we've already recorded an episode with a dear friend of ours, Jordan Ison, who is an amazing photographer. And when you listen to him talk, it's unreal how much there is to learn from this guy. And so that's what we want to do. So we'll be busy doing that. Who knows?

John Dehlin [01:23:38] What types of places are you visiting as a family when you're driving around?

Polly Brown [01:23:40] So we've done California. Yep.

Justin Brown [01:23:43] We did almost the whole coast. We've done Washington, Oregon. If you go to our Instagram, you'll see. We went and visited our adopted son. We went and visited his birth dad. Met him all you up in Washington. Spent two full days with him.

Polly Brown [01:23:58] Yep.

Justin Brown [01:23:59] And it was like magic. Between Ziggy, our little boy, and his dad. It was so cool. And we took some pictures and put it on our. So we're doing stuff like that.

Polly Brown [01:24:07] We're hitting national parks.

Justin Brown [01:24:09] Yeah. We've already been to a lot of national Parks, anything.

Polly Brown [01:24:11] We took the kids to Alcatraz.

Justin Brown [01:24:13] We're gonna.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] It's a great place.

Polly Brown [01:24:14] Oh, it was so cool.

Justin Brown [01:24:15] And homeschooling your kids, you can. We just had our kids write reports about. They did research and then a two page essay on Alcatraz. And then we went there because they're

Polly Brown [01:24:23] doing online school, homeschool.

Justin Brown [01:24:25] So then they're teaching us about Alcatraz as we're walking around. It was so cool. Then we're going to go to Arizona, we're going to go to the south, spend the winter in the south, do a bunch of civil rights stuff and just soak up all the culture that we can and then go up the east coast and then come back across the country next summer.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] I imagine your kids will always remember this.

Justin Brown [01:24:48] When we got home after the first trip, we were gone for a month. And the first morning, sleeping in our beds at Paulie's folks place. They're generous enough to let us stay there. Our kids, all of them, just independently, they all said we slept better in the bus. We want to go back out in the. In the bus. It's really fun.

Polly Brown [01:25:06] It's fun.

Justin Brown [01:25:06] So that's what we're doing.

Polly Brown [01:25:08] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] Regarding. So how old will you be ideally when you graduate law school?

Justin Brown [01:25:14] 45.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] 45.

Polly Brown [01:25:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] So I started my PhD when I was four.

Polly Brown [01:25:19] Oh, that's good to hear.

John Dehlin [01:25:20] And it was a six year PhD.

Polly Brown [01:25:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] So the earliest I would be finishing my PhD was when I was 46. Yep. But I had a really wise person say, John, you could be 46 with a PhD or 46. And I don't know if that even makes sense, but I think it does.

Justin Brown [01:25:37] It. It resonates with me. I've always wanted to do it. And someone called it my second act.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:25:43] And I'm like, that's a good. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:45] Richard Rohr.

Justin Brown [01:25:46] It's my second.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] Jenna just chimed in and said, Paulie and Justin, love you guys.

Justin Brown [01:25:50] Oh, we love you too.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] That was Jenna Spangler. Love you, Jenna. So your second act.

Justin Brown [01:25:55] Yeah, Here we go.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] And you're gonna second act Paulie.

Polly Brown [01:25:57] I know.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] Figure out me who you are.

Polly Brown [01:26:00] I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:26:01] What you want.

Polly Brown [01:26:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:26:02] That's kind of exciting.

Polly Brown [01:26:03] I am excited.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] Way to freaking. Way to. My. My. Congratulations. Way to take life by the horns. Way to make your life what you want it to be. Way to get out of the rut and to make life an adventure.

Polly Brown [01:26:16] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:26:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:16] It's probably scary sometimes.

Polly Brown [01:26:18] Oh, it totally is.

Justin Brown [01:26:19] We're spending a lot of money. Like it's Going to be expensive. And, you know, there's these old dudes that always sit at the coffee shop, and I like to ask older people their opinions. And I asked him today, like, what do you think? Should I be saving my money instead? And both of them were like, well, we come from the depression era. They had strong opinions, but they both said, what for?

Polly Brown [01:26:41] Yeah, what are you gonna say will be better?

Justin Brown [01:26:43] Yeah, go do it.

Polly Brown [01:26:44] You know, and take the church out. I mean, that was our first box shake in our marriage, don't you think?

Justin Brown [01:26:50] For sure.

Polly Brown [01:26:50] Take it out. And there goes your blueprint and your plan for what you're supposed to do, Right? Yeah. So.

Justin Brown [01:26:57] So let's make a new one.

Polly Brown [01:26:58] So let's make a new one and I can still have my bubble and be in my box and we can figure out what works for our family, right? Yeah. And so we just decided, let's think outside the box. Let's do what we want to do. I agree. Yeah. So that's. We're traveling.

Justin Brown [01:27:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] I love it.

Polly Brown [01:27:14] Yeah, it's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] Well, you guys are awesome. And I'm so grateful that you would stop in and do your interview today before you go out again.

Justin Brown [01:27:21] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] I'm sorry I've been hard to get a hold of, but you're busy and. Yeah. And so tell us again, the Instagram,

Justin Brown [01:27:30] it's six of us in a bus underscore the number. Six of us in a bus underscore.

Polly Brown [01:27:36] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:27:36] Check out the bus podcast is Learning to Live.

John Dehlin [01:27:39] Learning to live.

Polly Brown [01:27:40] Should be up tomorrow.

Justin Brown [01:27:41] Yeah, I have no idea. We've never done it. It'll take a few days to get up, right? Oh, yeah, Perfect.

Polly Brown [01:27:47] That's great.

John Dehlin [01:27:48] Get it up.

Polly Brown [01:27:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] By the time we go live, you'll be live.

Polly Brown [01:27:51] Perfect. And those in our same shoes. Hang in there.

Justin Brown [01:27:55] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Therapy. Paid for by the Brown.

Justin Brown [01:27:58] Oh, geez. Paid for by John. You're a champion.

Polly Brown [01:28:01] You are a champion.

Justin Brown [01:28:02] No, really, actually, if I could just say that again. I'm not trying to sell what you guys do, but do it. Like if you're struggling at all, if you're in a mixed faith marriage or if you're both have left the church or leaving, or if you're just alone and you're leaving, just find help. It's super hard.

Polly Brown [01:28:22] Yeah, it is hard.

Justin Brown [01:28:23] And the people just make it easier.

Polly Brown [01:28:25] Yeah.

Justin Brown [01:28:26] And these guys, the delins, what they're doing. I'm not trying to just stroke your guys's ego. I mean it like what you guys have done for us and what you do for people, it's invaluable. And you guys are. You guys are angels. You guys are saviors. And I believe that.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] Thank you.

Polly Brown [01:28:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] And also freaking Alan and Katie mount marriage on a Tightrope. You guys are awesome. Keep it up.

Justin Brown [01:28:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:47] Check out Marriage on a Tightrope podcast.

Justin Brown [01:28:49] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] Thanks to Bill Real for sponsoring them and making that possible. Give them money, give them support. Find a good therapist or coach. Join the Mormon Mixed Faith Marriage group on Facebook. Join the Marriage on a Tightrope group on Facebook.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] Find those podcasts. Listen to Mormon Stories episodes around mixed faith marriage. If you are in a mixed faith marriage, especially if one is still a believer and attending and you've been able to make your mixed faith marriage work, we want to have you on Mormon Stories podcast. There's a bunch of people on my list already, but please reach out. If you think the way you've worked out your marriage intermixed, faith marriage has worked well and is a good model for others. Please reach out to me. We'll try and get you on, but follow Mormon Stories and also follow the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] We've got 60 plus hours of these exact retreats that we've talked about. Workshops, mixed faith marriage stuff, faith crisis stuff. All the content that you really need to sort of navigate elegantly your faith crisis. And miss the, the landmines and the hand grenades and the potholes. Please check it out. It's. It's good stuff and it's all free, so check that out as well.

Justin Brown [01:30:03] Yep, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] And just thanks everyone who supports us financially. Your donations make this possible. And if you guys want to support Mormon Stories, please do with a monthly donation. It's all tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances and we'll keep serving people for as long as we can. What are you guys saying?

Polly Brown [01:30:22] Just making sure he still donates to that.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] Yeah, yeah. You guys have been supporting us for a while, so thank you so much.

Polly Brown [01:30:27] Yeah, we love it. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] All right, well, you guys are awesome. Thank you.

Justin Brown [01:30:32] Thank you. You're awesome.

Polly Brown [01:30:33] I hope that helps. Somebody helped us.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] It will.

Justin Brown [01:30:35] Tell Margi we love her.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] Absolutely. You guys stay in touch and we'll look forward to seeing you guys in the months and years ahead.

Polly Brown [01:30:41] Okay, thank you.

Justin Brown [01:30:42] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:30:42] Thanks, guys.

Justin Brown [01:30:43] Alrighty.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] Thanks, everybody. Well, thanks for having me. Join us live on Facebook and we'll see you guys again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.