Welcome and Introduction to Andrew's Story

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today we're going to be answering the question through story, what happens when you are adopted? When you're given up for adoption by a Mormon parent and you are adopted by faithful Mormon parents and then you experience faith issues. How does that all work out? It's a really, really compelling story. Margi and I are in love with this story and we haven't covered adoption in Mormon context on Mormon Stories podcast before. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. So hang on to the edge of your seats for a really cool story. We are joined today in studio by Andrew Fish. Hey, Andrew.

Andrew Fish [00:00:48] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Thanks for joining us.

Andrew Fish [00:00:50] Yeah, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Thanks for being willing to tell your story.

Andrew Fish [00:00:53] Yeah, excited to do it. A little nervous, but excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] And if that weren't enough, we also have Margi Delin in studio. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:02] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:03] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] You ready for this?

Andrew Fish [00:01:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:08] Oh, oh, and also, I feel like I have less, but yes, I am ready.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] All right. All right, Andrew. So before we begin, we usually have people kind of share their intention. I guess I'll just say this really quickly. The way that we exist on Mormon Stories primarily is through donations. So we're always grateful for those who donate regularly to keep us in business. But we also really rely on your support to keep the lights on. So if you value our content and you want to see it continue, the way that this stuff continues is by going to MormonStories.org, clicking on the donate button and becoming a monthly donor. If you'll notice, we don't run ads on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] YouTube does run ads, but if you just buy the $10 a month YouTube Premium, you won't get ads there either. So we try to keep Mormon Stories. We do. We keep Mormon Stories sponsorship free and ad free so that you don't have the interruptions. But the only way we can do that is if y' all donate. It's also super helpful to subscribe on YouTube and in all the channels and like, and share the stuff. So. All right, so without any further ado, Andrew Fish. We often start with intentions. So is there anything you want to say about why you wanted to share your story today?

Adoption as the Center of Andrew's Identity

Andrew Fish [00:02:36] Yeah, I guess adoption has always been, I don't know, it's always felt very central to my story. Just my story of growing up. It was something that was always. Treated like something that was really special and

John Dehlin [00:03:00] unique.

Andrew Fish [00:03:01] And even miraculous, right? Yeah. Yeah. And what I found was that as I had some challenges with my faith, adoption felt pretty central to that. And so I've not. I mean, I guess I can think of maybe a couple of people that I've met throughout my life who were Mormon and adopted. But I've, you know, I've never really had a chance to talk to someone who had any kind of faith, you know, faith struggles, who was also adopted. And so I guess my hope would be that in sharing that story that, you know, anyone who is adopted who is, you know, having any kind of a faith crisis might just feel a little bit less alone and, you know, have. Have something to relate to.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Beautiful.

Andrew Fish [00:03:56] Yeah.

The Story Before Andrew's Birth

John Dehlin [00:03:56] All right, well, where does your Mormon adoption story begin? And my sense is it begins before your birth.

Andrew Fish [00:04:03] Does. Began well before my birth. But I'll start with my. I'll start with my adoptive parents, which, I mean, I'm just going to refer to them as my mom and dad because they are my mom and dad. So my mom was.

Andrew Fish [00:04:19] She's the daughter of a Methodist preacher. Both my parents grew up in Florida. And she got baptized when she was, I think, about 18. She'd met a. She'd met a recently returned missionary, and they went on some dates.

Andrew Fish [00:04:36] And then, you know, shortly after that, she got baptized the way that she met my dad. So she was, I guess they were living in the Hollywood, Florida stake, if anybody didn't know there was a Hollywood, Florida. And so there had been some changes in stake boundaries, which ended up. She ended up moving to a different ward than she'd previously been in. And like her, I think, maybe second week in that ward, she got asked to speak by the bishop.

Andrew Fish [00:05:07] And so she's like, giving this talk on the front row. There were a bunch of young men and missionaries, and she kind of noticed as she's speaking, they're kind of like, snickering and kind of whispering to each other. And so she was kind of feeling a little bit offended by that.

Andrew Fish [00:05:28] And so afterwards, one of those young men on the front row approached her and asked her, well, basically invited her to go to some kind of a. Like, a young, single adult activity later that week. And she later found out that his brother was still in that same ward, but he.

Andrew Fish [00:05:57] This guy who turned out to be my dad had been moved to a different ward. And so his brother had heard that there was, like, a new girl there that was going to be speaking. And so he told my dad, like, maybe you should, you know, come and. Come and check her out. So he did. And then I guess the, you know, the kind of whispering and snickering on the front row is like the missionaries daring him to ask her out. So he did. And they, you know, after dating for a couple months, both came to feel like they were meant to be together. And in 1975, ended up.

Andrew Fish [00:06:29] Ended up getting married. So she had been, I think by that point she'd been a member over a year. But they also wanted, I think it was important to her in particular that her dad marry them because he's a Methodist preacher. And so they became one of the many people who didn't immediately get married in the temple that then had to wait for a year. And I just remembered her describing that as being kind of like a scary, you know, a little bit of an excruciating period. Just worried that, like, something might happen or, you know, one of them might die.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] And they're not sealed.

Andrew Fish [00:07:14] Yeah, and then they're not sealed. And so. But one of the things that I always thought was really interesting, and I remember her telling me that or her describing that when. So when her, when her dad was marrying them, he. So I guess typically in those weddings, you know, they. Until death do you part. And he said for time and all eternity, which, because he just, he knew that that was kind of one of the, you know, fundamental tenets of Mormonism. And so in their civil ceremony. Yeah, in their civil ceremony, he. Methodist preacher.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] He's not allowed to say that.

Andrew Fish [00:07:53] Yeah, I mean, he doesn't have authority. He didn't know that he didn't quite have the authority. But I've always just thought that was like a really sweet, sweet gesture on his part. So they got married. And at that time, I think my dad was in mortuary school and ended up working in a mortuary and then did that for a couple years. And then they decided to move to.

Andrew Fish [00:08:21] They ended up moving to Spanish Fork to just kind of be in the promised land. So. But backtracking a little bit. A year after they got married, they were married in the Washington, D.C. temple. And then following that, move to Utah.

Andrew Fish [00:08:39] So once they moved here, my dad. So after a time, my dad decided to go back to work or, sorry, go back to school full time, went to byu. He wanted to become an engineer. And so he was working, went back to school full time, was working part time for a foundry in Spanish Fork, which.

Andrew Fish [00:09:04] And then my mom had a job with the provost school district. And over time they'd kind of realized that for whatever reason, they weren't able to have kids. I don't know that right. When they got married, they immediately were intending to do that, but you know, by the time like a couple years had gone by, they were very much wanting to start a family. And in fact, you know, my mom, she always kind of described like the only thing she ever wanted to be was a mom. And you know, like when she was in high school, like, she didn't really have ambitions to have a career.

Andrew Fish [00:09:44] She just, you know, she wanted to have kids, wanted to be a mom. And so as the years kind of drug on, I know that was really, really hard for. This is not a good sign. I know that was really hard for them.

Andrew Fish [00:10:06] And so eventually they decided to give adoption a shot. And also doctors, they couldn't give them any reason as to why they weren't able to have kids. It was just kind of, just kind of a mystery. And so they decided to adopt through LDS Social Services.

Andrew Fish [00:10:28] And I guess it was typically about a two to three year, two to three year process to do that. And at some point in the process, my mother's sister in law, they also lived in, they lived in Orem, I think, at the time. And they, I'm not sure how they knew these people, but they introduced them to a couple of men who I guess from their understanding had served missions in Chile. And so they were trying to set, you know, Mormon families in the United States up with Chilean adoptions.

Andrew Fish [00:11:13] And what stood out to them about that was that it was about a nine month process. And so that was kind of like too good to pass up.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:22] It was faster, right?

Andrew Fish [00:11:24] Oh yeah, yeah, infinitely faster. I mean, LDS Social services was at least two to three years and this was nine months. And so I think by, I guess by this point they would have been married about five years. And so, you know.

Andrew Fish [00:11:40] Yeah, when being a mom is like the thing that you want, I would imagine five years is an excruciatingly long, long time. So they made a down payment to these guys and thousands of dollars, I'm guessing. Yeah, I would guess at least, probably at least a thousand.

Andrew Fish [00:12:02] And then after that, so my mom, again, she was working for the provost school district, was making about $500 a week and for three to four months basically just paid them her entire paycheck. And I'm not sure, you know, where things started to feel fishy, but by that point they were kind of getting the sense that they were getting the run around in some way. And so then one of the men basically absconded with, with their money and, and the money of, I guess a bunch of other people and just kind of disappeared.

Andrew Fish [00:12:40] The other person, you know, he, he kind of tried to make things right, but I mean, there wasn't much he could do because like his partner stole all of the money and she feels like it was unexpected for him, like it wasn't, you know, conspiracy between the two of them to rip off a bunch of people, but that his partner just turned out to be a not a good person.

Andrew Fish [00:13:07] So they hired a lawyer, which she said was ultimately kind of a waste of time. But she, I guess after months and months of some pretty diligent hounding on her part, they were able to get about $1,000 back, but for the most part likely lost a few thousand dollars, which is, that's not a small amount when you're first married and trying to just get through college and prepare to start a family.

Andrew Fish [00:13:40] So they went back to LDS Social Services, got the paperwork started again. And so there's, as they were starting that they told them there's about a year long vetting process to, I guess, you know, try to figure out if they're going to be adequate parents.

Andrew Fish [00:14:02] And then there was typically after that vetting process, you know, a one to two year wait. And so I remember her telling me that around the end of that vetting process, she couldn't remember if that year of vetting counted towards like the, you know, the two year average or if it was the year of vetting and then likely two years. And so, you know, she'd reached out and they told her, yeah, that there's the vetting process and then usually about a two year wait. And so, you know, she remembers feeling like that was pretty kind of devastating and disappointing.

Andrew Fish [00:14:42] But shortly after, I think just a couple of months after that, that first year of vetting, they got a call and on it was July 19, 1982. And they basically said, hey, we have a baby. If you want it, you can come pick it up tomorrow in Cedar City. So I mean, it was literally like overnight went from, you know, it's going

Margi Dehlin [00:15:13] to be a long.

Andrew Fish [00:15:14] Yeah, it's going to be a long haul and to hey, we got a child for you to come pick up if you want it. And my dad had also said that, you know, he really felt like it would probably, you know, they probably wouldn't, wouldn't place with them until he was finished with college just because, you know, civility. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Fish [00:15:35] So that I guess, you know, that night they called my dad's parents, who I think, I think they Were. I don't know if they were living in Utah yet or they were just visiting Utah. But basically his parents, they were from Florida as well, but his parents drove them down to Cedar City to pick me up. And.

Andrew Fish [00:16:05] On the way home he said that, you know, my mom and he sat in the back seat and they just had a pillow in between them and just laid me on the pillow and drove me a couple hundred miles, which maybe that's, I don't know, the first miracle that they didn't get any kind of crash and lose me immediately after getting me, because car seats weren't a thing at that time, I suppose.

Andrew Fish [00:16:35] But yeah, that's basically, I think in a nutshell, kind of my parents story, I guess. One other interesting thing. So my mom had a really close relationship with her grandmother and. And her grandmother had died in February of 1982.

Andrew Fish [00:16:58] And so, you know, my parents were. I guess her grandmother would have been living in Florida at the time, but, you know, they still communicated frequently. And her grandmother knew just how much she wanted to be a mom and to have children and how hard that had been for them. And so, you know, it was, I think it was always kind of sad for my mother that, you know, her grandmother wasn't there to, you know, get to see her actually become. Become a mother. But she also believed that, you know, her gr. Well, one other thing that my mom had always said is that she felt like, you know, I just think that if, like, I'm sure my grandmother has like accepted the gospel, you know. In the.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:53] Afterlife.

Andrew Fish [00:17:53] Yeah, in the afterlife. And. But she felt convinced that, you know, it wasn't coincidence that my grandmother passed and then five months later they, you know, got a baby that was supposed to take at least another two years that she.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:09] So. Connecting them a little bit.

Andrew Fish [00:18:11] Yeah, she just felt like maybe her grandmother had, you know, pulled some strings with Heavenly Father and got me sent to them.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:21] Worked some magic up there.

Andrew Fish [00:18:22] Yeah, yeah. So I think that's my parents in a nutshell.

His Birth Mother's Circumstances and Choices

Margi Dehlin [00:18:27] Okay.

Andrew Fish [00:18:29] So now I want to shift to my biomom's story. So she. So she was always just loved, loved education. Like she said if she could be a professional student and not do anything else, then like, that would kind of be her dream. She has four degrees, which is, wow, one more than I have.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:58] Stunning. What are her degrees?

Andrew Fish [00:19:01] Three more than I think anybody should ever have. Man, do, you know. So one is, well, English, English literature. And then there's another couple in there and then just got a PhD in child psychology. I think it Is. I think that's the last one. But. So she first school she went to was byu. And while she was at byu, she saw an ad for, you know, to be a volunteer at a, at a crisis line, which interestingly is the first. It was the first crisis line in Utah and like one of the first in the nation. So this was in the 70s. And so one of the things, so maybe I'll preface a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] I'm.

Andrew Fish [00:20:03] From time to time I'm going to share some things from her own words. I, I had really hoped that she could be a part of this, but just this interview. Yeah, this interview. But just due to some, you know, life logistics, she wasn't able to. Able to do that. So I'm going to try to share some things in, in her own words. But one of the.

Andrew Fish [00:20:25] So one thing that she'd said was it turns out that the moment that I saw the ad in the daily universe and felt my soul's inescapable draw to respond, that was when my life pivoted in a direction and with an unstoppable momentum that it might have been seen from space.

Andrew Fish [00:20:42] So this, this really kind of set her on a path to, I mean, it feels silly to say like, what the rest of her life was ultimately going to look like, but I think, like it, this was a very formative moment for her and she discovered some, I think, important passions that maybe she, you know, had just kind of been in development before then. But so while she's working at this crisis line, she met another woman who worked there who was a paraprofessional drug counselor at the Gathering Place in Provo.

Andrew Fish [00:21:22] And so she started volunteering there. And then within about a year they ended up hiring her as a counselor. So, you know, she described herself as a 23 year old who just had developed this passion for saving everyone and everything and kind of described herself as becoming like a mother to anyone who just needed to have their buckets filled with.

Andrew Fish [00:21:54] I mean, one of the things that I, you know, has stood out to me in every interaction that I've had with her and everything that I've, you know, learned about her life is that she's just such a compassionate and, you know, caring and loving, loving person.

Andrew Fish [00:22:11] But so, you know, she also described herself as naive and foolish with no boundaries, but that, you know, she found the work to be really fulfilling. So in the early 70s, she was kind of the lone liberal in a huge conservative Mormon family. So she has like, there are 11 children in her family. She's the oldest of them.

Andrew Fish [00:22:38] And to give a sense of the spread, her youngest sibling was born when she was 23 years old. So Saturday's warrior vibes. Yeah, very, very, very Saturday's warrior vibes. But one of the things that she mentioned was that, you know, she tried, she tried very hard to kind of have the faith that her, that, you know, that she saw her siblings have. And it just never.

Andrew Fish [00:23:10] It never came as easily to her as naturally to her, which is something that I very much can relate to. So eventually they go, she goes on this 10 day survival kind of survival excursion in the desert and mountains, which involved her as a counselor and then another counselor and then some people who

John Dehlin [00:23:40] were,

Andrew Fish [00:23:43] as far as I understand, we're struggling with substance use and substance addiction. And one of the participants on this outing was a guy from Portland who was friends with the other counselor who was an ex user. And this guy was 28. My mother was 24. And he was trying to turn his life around. And so she was just kind of naturally drawn to kind of that savior role.

Andrew Fish [00:24:19] And so after about two months, they became really close and then ended up eloping, which I think she probably sees as the first, like one of the first big kind of mistakes in her life. But they were married for about two years and ended up having two sons together.

Andrew Fish [00:24:43] And, you know, I don't know a whole lot of details about what she experienced in that, but I get the sense that it was a pretty awful, awful time period. And, you know, she said so she was five months pregnant with her second son when she finally left and.

Andrew Fish [00:25:06] And said I was severely damaged, but miraculously able to escape when I was five months pregnant, feeling broken and lost. So I know for a time she moved back in with her parents, who I believe were living in Arizona at the time, but then eventually found herself in Cedar City going to college.

Andrew Fish [00:25:29] So she was 28 and had decided she wanted to be a CPA. And so I was going to school for that. But over time kind of realized that she was probably more of a people person than a numbers person. And so she switched her major to English lit with a secondary ed focus and decided to be a teacher.

Andrew Fish [00:25:57] But it was incredibly difficult being a single mom. And if it's okay, I'll kind of share something that she wrote about that time. She said, sadly, the stress and time demands took a toll on the boys, but they were still young enough to be happy finding frogs with their friends around the subsidized apartment building on a hill in Cedar City. I was getting no Child support.

Andrew Fish [00:26:22] Although I was receiving food stamps, a very small welfare check and support in my schooling, we were still extremely poor. And an occasional $25 check from my sweet grandmother allowed for cheap sneakers for them and a precious and indulgent outing for burgers and fries at Arctic Circle. Sometimes I find myself overcome with sorrow at all that my boys were missing by not having a father in their lives. Their father tried to convince me for many months to give him the oldest and you can have the other one that he didn't. That he didn't know yet and had no connection to, when he could not plead or threaten or guilt me into returning to him.

Andrew Fish [00:26:58] But distance really helped prevent him to fulfill his. From fulfilling his threats. I would not sacrifice them to his toxicity and his addictions. He was back to shooting up and would deny. Would deny it and tell me I was crazy even when I found his paraphernalia under the sink or the ongoing consequences of his severe mood disorders that darkened every sky we'd lived under, nor allow them to be vulnerable to his sociopathology and self loathing example.

Andrew Fish [00:27:26] They're grateful for that protection and that they were raised by a mother so they could better understand, communicate with and cherish women. But their forgiveness, but their forgiveness and perpetual love toward me has never completely freed me from the monumental regret that they did not grow up with a pair of mentally healthy parents, a father free of addictions, and the honest ability to love. To love from having been clearly loved by happy parents.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:54] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [00:28:00] And I share that in. I mean, in part to, you know, to give a sense of. Kind of where she was coming from. And, you know, I think what she'd endured up into that time. But it also very much informs, you know, her decision eventually related to me.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:18] Right.

Andrew Fish [00:28:20] So while she's working towards her degree, she ends up taking a choir class just, you know, kind of out of, for fun and just found herself really drawn to this, you know, kind of charismatic and charming professor with, you know, whom she shared a lot of things in common. And so they start, you know, they start kind of seeing each other. And pretty quickly he starts also pushing for more intimacy than she was, than she was comfortable with.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] Do you know if he was married?

Andrew Fish [00:28:57] He was not married. Yeah, he was. He was single. I don't, I don't. I'm not sure what their age gap was. I know he was older, but it also, you know, Power. Yeah, I mean, there were definitely, you know, definitely would have been power dynamics, but also, you know, she wasn't like a, you know, a 20 year old freshman and he was like a 40 year old professor. Like, you know, she was, she'd had some experience in the world when he was younger. Yeah, she was 28, 29 somewhere, somewhere in there.

Andrew Fish [00:29:31] But yeah, I'm not sure how much older he was, but, but he also, he also hated the church. And you know, she, she wasn't, she hadn't been, you know, been terribly active. She'd been kind of distanced from the church for a time, but had also been feeling like she, she needed to kind of get back into the church in particular for her boys. Like, she thought it would be good for them and kind of give them a solid foundation.

Andrew Fish [00:30:07] So in her mind, you know, she just knew it wasn't gonna go. Wasn't ultimately gonna go anywhere. And so I guess they kind of hadn't seen each other for a few weeks and you know, one night he came over and so they, you know, spent a lot of time, spent a lot of time talking. And then, you know, it got late and he decided to. Or we asked her if he could just like, I'll just sleep on the couch. Like, I promise I'll honor, you know, I'll honor your boundaries. And so, you know, in her, her words, she just kind of naively was like, okay, you know, that's, that's fine.

Andrew Fish [00:30:47] And so at some point in the middle of the night, he went into a room and here I am. And to be clear, you know, according to her, you know, she didn't describe it as assault. Yeah. As an assault or as unwanted. Just more. She just described herself as just kind of feeling weak and giving in to something that, you know, on some level she wanted to do, but at the same time, you know, weak or human. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's how I would describe it. Certainly not weak because, you know, we've all been there.

Andrew Fish [00:31:33] But the next morning she said that, you know, she just had the disturbing sense that she'd conceived. And then, you know, sure enough, she had. So eventually after, you know, after she confirmed it, she invites him over to break the news and he responded pretty terribly, like he was, he was really angry and, you know, ended up storming out claiming, you know, like she'd ruined his life. And. And then he demanded that she get an abortion, and she did not intend to get an abortion.

Andrew Fish [00:32:21] And I guess there were, you know, there were a handful of people and different parts of her life who also ultimately kind of counseled. Counseled the same thing. But, you know, after, I guess after several days, you Know, he came back and was like, all right, well, if you're not going to get an abortion, then like, we have to get married.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Wow. This guy's a piece of. Was a piece of work.

Andrew Fish [00:32:46] Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, you know, that's always a really good idea as to. If you are deeply incompatible, ruined my

John Dehlin [00:32:54] life and you know, get an abortion or let's get married.

Andrew Fish [00:32:59] Yeah. I mean, sort of mixed signals, but whatever. So, you know, obviously she was like,

Margi Dehlin [00:33:06] no, I don't, I'm thinking not.

Andrew Fish [00:33:08] Yeah, that doesn't seem like good for anyone.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] Not a great start. Yeah, I'm sorry we're laughing.

Andrew Fish [00:33:16] No, it is fine to laugh because it's ridiculous. But, you know, so obviously she said no. And he stayed enraged with her throughout the pregnancy. Refused to sign for the adoption until just a few days before, you know, before I was born.

Andrew Fish [00:33:40] He. So when I was like with, with my birth, I got, I got a letter from her and I got a letter from him and his. I tried really hard to find it. Cause his is, his is pretty amusing. But his, it's like maybe three quarters of a page and starts out, hello, I am your birth father.

Andrew Fish [00:34:10] Six foot two, blonde hair, blue eyed, fairly. With a fairly athletic and muscular build and relatively intelligent and good looking. Like literally says this. And then he tells me a little bit about his. Like, my father was English and Swiss, my mother was Polish, I enjoy sailing and some other things.

Andrew Fish [00:34:34] And he's like, your mother, she was a beautiful woman. Says a few things and he's like, you know, you were conceived out of love. Which was a line I've always loved. Which, the way that she describes it, I don't feel like I was conceived out of love, but doesn't matter.

Andrew Fish [00:34:57] But he, at some point in it, he says, you know, at first I, you know, I intended to adopt you myself, but there was resistance, which that's all he says about that. And then he says, and having lost my job from, you know, from like this situation, I didn't have a means to support you. And so he was fired for sleeping with the student.

Andrew Fish [00:35:23] Yeah. So, yeah, I guess that's what ultimately happened with him. He got fired. I guess he'd also. He ended up getting some kind of a faculty position at I think a university in Washington that came with some kind of a small stipend but wouldn't be enough to support me. So I think it was kind of at that point that he seemed to kind of relent and, and I think that's at the point that he signed the adoption paper. So that, to my bio mom, I think, felt like a little bit of, you know, the hand of providence moving this situation in the direction that she felt like it needed to go.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] But

Andrew Fish [00:36:11] so, Yeah, so during her pregnancy, you know, she described it as a pretty agonizing time. You know, so she's really wrestling with, you know, this kind of conundrum about what to do. You know, she also. She's taking classes, she's writing papers, she's doing exams, and she's, you know, experiencing really terrible morning sickness. And she has two kids.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Right.

Andrew Fish [00:36:42] And yeah, two little boys.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:44] She had a very full plate single mom before.

Andrew Fish [00:36:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:48] And now.

Andrew Fish [00:36:49] Yeah. So I think. I think my half brothers would have been like 5 and 2 or 6 and 3. So, you know, just little. Little.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:00] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [00:37:03] But, you know, in addition to all these different, you know, all these different challenges, she's also just experiencing all kinds of shame and embarrassment for, you know, being a. Not only. Not only already a single mom, but then like a pregnant single mom, which, you know, in the 80s, like in Utah. Yeah. I mean, 80s in Utah in particular. You know, probably not a whole lot

John Dehlin [00:37:31] of compassion for after already being divorced. Right.

Andrew Fish [00:37:35] So just all kinds of stigmas that, you know, that she's already experiencing. And so. But she, you know, described experiencing, you know, a lot of judgment from people that had been her closest friends. Like, and especially as she'd, you know, kind of settled on the. The idea of. Of placing me for adoption, you know, having these. These women who were mothers being like, like, how could you give. Like, how are you going to do that? Like, how can you possibly give up a child? Like, almost like shaming her for.

Andrew Fish [00:38:08] For considering that option. So. So yeah, bio dad finally calls a few days before I'm born, just says, you win, and signed the papers. And so that was that. But she talked about once she'd kind of finally come to the decision to place me for adoption that she started to.

Andrew Fish [00:38:38] She basically stopped thinking of me as her baby and started kind of thinking of me and referring to me as their baby and not knowing who they. Who they were. But. But she. She felt like that, you know, that had kind of helped her. Her start to, you know, psychological.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:58] Maybe some distancing.

Andrew Fish [00:39:00] Yeah. Work on that process of, you know, letting go. Yeah. So I guess the night before I was born, she had a friend help her make a quilt for me, which. So I got. I got two things. Two things from her, one being a letter and then the other one.

Andrew Fish [00:39:33] Excuse me. The other one being this quilt. So this is. This is something that she'd said about. About making that quilt. She said it was made with a calming and sweet thought of how happy. Of how happy your parents were going to.

Andrew Fish [00:40:12] But I will never forget the pain I felt when my. When my dear well meaning friend bunched the finished quilt in her arms. Sorry. When my dear well meaning friend bunched the quilt in her arms as though she were cradling a baby and said to me.

Andrew Fish [00:40:43] Are you sure you want to give it up? I knew that she could not understand. None of the mothers who said I could never do that could also understand. And I could still forgive them because of that lack of understanding. I wouldn't have wished upon any of them.

Andrew Fish [00:41:08] I'm sorry. To confess that the moment you came into the world was truly horrible for me. The cry I heard. The cry I heard was going to be the first and the last I would hear. From that new little voice.

Andrew Fish [00:41:30] So sorry. The cry I heard was going to be the first and the last I would hear from that new little voice. So familiar. And the loss was something I could never describe to anyone who has not experienced it.

Andrew Fish [00:41:55] I've worried that you bore the mark on your heart of that dark hole in my own heart. I've learned since about implicit memories and the impact of them on a life. But I've hoped that the likely good of your life would have burned any residue that that might have existed or that might have existed.

Andrew Fish [00:42:19] She goes on to say that postpartum depression and the. And the reality of that day was so heavy that I was unable to do anything other than cry. I can't remember if I'd yet written the letter to your parents. But I know that I had not yet written the one to you because I wanted to know your gender so I could address you properly. But I was horrified to be so crippled and unable to begin the letter that must be written.

Letters Surrounding the Adoption

Andrew Fish [00:42:44] After signing the papers. And now that there was no chance supposedly to change my mind. I was reminded that seeing you would be a huge mistake. But they would not stop me from seeing you. Even though I was not allowed to touch you. Why do that to myself? But something inside me propelled me to the room they had you in by yourself. And I looked upon your face. You are so beautiful.

Andrew Fish [00:43:13] And I was told you couldn't be more healthy and strong. I was relieved by that. By that information. But also by the fact that at least in the image my mind provided at the time, you did not look much like my boys, which I don't. Having seen them that Allowed me the final letting go and the ability at least to write to you. That was the only time I believed I would ever see your face. And the, and the only words I believed I would ever speak to you. But I knew you'd hear them and would know the why that I could not allow you to live without.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] So, hey, can you put words to what you're feeling if you want to?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:05] Yeah,

Andrew Fish [00:44:13] I think it's just, it's a, it's a. Maybe it's a recognition or just some kind of a feeling of not being able to fathom. Like what, like how a person makes that decision. You know, I'm never going to grow a human inside of my body, but I would imagine that that probably, you know, instills upon one just some kind of indescribable ownership and connection and ownership feels like a gross word. But I don't mean it and I don't mean it in the sense that anybody owns anybody. But stewardship, Yeah, I mean just a responsibility, like just a connection that I think, you know, any non uterus bearing human can never will ever understand.

Andrew Fish [00:45:31] But just the, the. The kind of strength that it must have taken for her to, to make that choice is. It's just overwhelming to me. And I think maybe the other piece of it is just the like the gratitude. Yeah, it's the gratitude that I feel towards her.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Now why this based on like a rough question, but why gratitude and not like resentment or abandonment. Why gratitude? I guess you may talk about that later.

Andrew Fish [00:46:14] But yeah, I mean, I guess just in a nutshell. And I think I will be able to clarify this later. But just the life that I've had and have gotten to live is all a result of that sacrifice that she made. And part of. I think one of the key reasons why I'm able to feel the way that I do is because of what, What. It's two reasons. One, because of what she conveyed to me in, in, in the letter that I'll share in a moment. And also just the way that my, my own parents handled my adoption and approached my adoption. You know, I feel like if I don't know, they just, they, they nailed it. Like they did it. They just did it. Right. And I'll go into that more a little bit later. But

Margi Dehlin [00:47:19] can I ask you a question about what you just read, just to clarify. So was that from the letter you received from her? Is that an excerpt from the letter that you received when you. Or did this come later?

Andrew Fish [00:47:32] This came later. So this was.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:34] I just wanted to Know when you. Yeah.

Andrew Fish [00:47:36] So this came from some of our initial. Like, once we found each other, some initial correspondence. Got it. Yeah. Which I feel really blessed to have just because, you know, it allows me to tell some of her story in her words.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:51] That's right. Yes.

Andrew Fish [00:47:56] So, as I'd mentioned, all that I had from her was a letter and a blanket. And she also wrote. She also wrote a letter to my parents, as she'd mentioned. But. Well, yeah, if it's okay, I'd like to share some portions of what. Like, what she wrote to me, and I'll try to steel myself and power through this a little bit better than the last one.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:31] Oh, I wouldn't say better. Wouldn't say better. Yeah.

Andrew Fish [00:48:37] I guess part of one of my problems is that when I get emotional, I feel like my voice is just real ugly and hideous. And so, like, I have a hard time, like, just speaking through the emotion. So I'm gonna try to, like, let go of that and just read. Even if I'm.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:02] Can I just say, to be clear, it was just beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:06] Hearing you read that and. And feel it, and it seemed your emotions seemed absolutely in line with what you were reading really makes sense.

Andrew Fish [00:49:19] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:19] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [00:49:20] I also realize we're on a podcast, and it's important for me to keep going, so. But. Okay. So she starts the letter, dear friend, which I guess I don't know what to. I think that's an interesting way to start it.

Andrew Fish [00:49:44] I don't know. Dear friend, I must have written this letter a hundred times in my mind during the last nine months. I was afraid to put it down on paper until now because I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be right and to say just how I felt, or to say how I felt in just the words that were closest to my feelings.

Andrew Fish [00:50:04] Now that you were born and I've seen you, somehow it's a little easier to speak to you. There are a few very important things that you must believe and try to understand. First, the woman you call mom and the man you call Father are your real, true, forever parents and the ones that Heavenly Father wanted you to have and that possibly you chose yourself. Before you were born, only in their family could you have had, be having, and yet will have the special challenges and opportunities that will help your patriarchal blessing and become the man you were born to be.

Andrew Fish [00:50:41] I know your parents are not perfect and maybe even frustrate and anger you at times. And my own parents have made mistakes. I was the oldest child, just like you, and didn't always do what I wanted or gave me what I wanted. But I wouldn't trade them for anyone else in the whole world because they're mine and I'm theirs and we love each other no matter what.

Andrew Fish [00:51:02] The second thing I want you to know is that I did not ever at one moment resent you or not want you. In fact, if I hadn't. If I hadn't loved you so much, I could never have let your parents have you.

Andrew Fish [00:51:17] I'll explain that because I know it seems confusing. When I knew you were going to be born, I was afraid, embarrassed because of not being married and worried about how my family would feel, but also very anxious to have you. I had wanted a baby for a long time, but then I got a strong feeling that because I'd been raised in the church and taught to pray, I knew I must ask my Heavenly Father what was the right thing to do and what was best for you.

Andrew Fish [00:51:45] The answer was very, very painful to me. But. But for the first real time in my life, I knew without a doubt that I received an unmistakable answer to my prayer, even though it wasn't the one I wanted or expected.

Andrew Fish [00:51:57] Since then, I've tried to make the answer different, but never could deny what Heavenly Father had told me to do. It wasn't because he was trying to punish me or because he was using you to make me feel sorry or ashamed. Heavenly Father isn't that way. He loves you and he loves me and he loves your mother and father more than any of us can possibly imagine. And because he loves us so much, he let me be the friend and sister who brought your spirit to earth into the right family and allowed you and your dear parents to know and love each other. All these years I've been promised and comforted that they, they and you are a forever family.

Andrew Fish [00:52:39] Otherwise I could never have let you go. Finally, I want you to realize and believe, if you don't already, that you were and are cherished by the Lord so much that he literally performed miracles in order to in order to assure that you would be just where you are today.

Andrew Fish [00:52:56] I was a part of those miracles and the warmth and comfort I am being blessed with, especially during these last few days. When it has been hardest for me, Come from a loving Father who has been and still is there for you too.

Andrew Fish [00:53:17] Whenever you choose to let it warm you like a blanket, Know beyond a doubt that you've been loved and wanted from the time before your existence was realized. Please believe and know and know who you are and know how very Much you're worth to all those who've ever loved you, and especially to your heavenly parents. We are all one family. Love through eternity. Your loving friend and sister.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] It's clear at the time she was kind of an orthodox Mormon believer because she's referencing your patriarchal blessing. She's talking about miracles, you know, so her. You can tell her mindset is wrapped in Mormon orthodox theology and doctrine.

Andrew Fish [00:54:15] Yeah, I think. I think she was. I guess I get. I get more of a sense that she. That that's what she wanted to be like. That's where. Where she was hoping to be. And. And that, you know, through kind of throughout this experience, she kind of started to maybe arrive at that place

John Dehlin [00:54:43] because

Andrew Fish [00:54:43] I, you know, like, I genuinely believe that she, you know, she felt inspired somehow some way to. To make the decision that she did. And. And so, you know, I think that, you know, that that served to maybe awaken some of a testimony in her that she'd struggled to really find before that or solidify before that.

Andrew Fish [00:55:16] But the letter. So the letter that she wrote to my parents kind of said a lot of similar things. A few of the differences were, you know, she. She was, I think, very gracious in how she, like, approached, like, the idea of a blanket. Like, you know, she said, I would hope that you'd be open to letting him have this. But I also understand if it, you know, if it makes you uncomfortable, and if it does, then, you know, please don't do it. But just please know that this isn't a gesture on my part where I'm, like, in some way trying to create some kind of a, you know, a wedge or a barrier, a blanket, you know, in between.

Andrew Fish [00:56:00] You know, in between you. If it feels right, let him have it. And, you know, where I think my parents really did everything right, or maybe did the most right, was they've never acted with any sort of jealousy or competitiveness. Yeah. There's never been any kind of insecurity around her and learning anything about her.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:33] It's beautiful.

Andrew Fish [00:56:34] Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:37] Can I just say, too, that the amount of care that she intentionally. It's gonna move me. Sorry. Gave you as she basically, you know, handed you over and at the same time, really having the insight as to what you might struggle with or what story you might create about who you are, it's just. It's really something to witness. And I haven't heard a lot of stories quite like this either. So the fact that she was able to be in the. Have this. This presence of Mind amid so much turmoil and clearly a lot of pain and loss. You know, as she's, you know, really clearly doing something very difficult. It's really moving.

Andrew Fish [00:57:43] No, I couldn't agree more.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:45] Yeah,

Andrew Fish [00:57:48] yeah, I do owe, I owe so much of, I think, how I ultimately felt about it to her ability to craft, I think the exact words that I would need to hear growing up. And I think the letter that she wrote to my parents also had a similar, like, had a similar impact on them and their approach to it as well.

Andrew Fish [00:58:26] So, you know, I guess maybe kind of all of these, all these things together can probably give you a sense of why my parents like very much viewed this all as kind of a miracle story. And, you know, this was further bolstered by, you know, after 10 years of infertility, my mom or my baby sister and then two more children, two more children after that. And so, you know, it's always kind of been this just belief in our family that, you know, they couldn't have kids because for whatever reason I had to come a different way. And that was, you know, that was something that.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:20] But.

Andrew Fish [00:59:24] I guess part of what I always wondered just all throughout my life growing up was what happened to this woman in the aftermath of this. Was this the thing that really did reignite her testimony? Because I guess one of the things that she mentioned in the letter to my parents that isn't in mine is, you know, she talked about how she'd kind of been, you know, distanced from the church for a number of years and that, so she gave like a little bit of that background of how, you know, she hadn't always been, you know, incredibly faithful and that like this, you know, my conception wasn't just like, you know, kind of a one off mistake that, you know, any, you know, good, faithful Mormon person can make, but that, you know, she'd been just distanced from the church and, and that this had almost kind of been like a, like a wake up call.

Andrew Fish [01:00:32] So I'd always just wondered like, maybe that's why I had to come the way that I did, was that in order for, you know, Heavenly Father bring her back to the church, like my mother's womb had to not work for a while.

Andrew Fish [01:00:49] And so I had to come through her so that then she could have this experience that would then bring her back to the fold.

Making Sense of Origins Growing Up

Margi Dehlin [01:00:58] How old are you when you're, I think stories are important, the stories that we create to understand ourselves and our origins. So when you're saying that how old are you when you're Kind of thinking that way of maybe.

Andrew Fish [01:01:14] Yeah, I would imagine probably in my teenage years that idea kind of started to form. And you know, I'm not gonna go a lot into mission stuff, but I know that, you know, that was, that was definitely something I thought a lot about on my mission. And you know, I shared, often shared my adoption story as kind of a, like a, I don't know, just a faith promoting story as a missionary. But yeah, I would, I think definitely during my teenage years and into early adulthood that was something that I, that I thought about a lot.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] If I can just add one piece of context for the never Mormons out there or for the young Mormons I mentioned jokingly, Saturday's Warrior, just to kind of explain what that's about, right. Saturday's Warrior is a musical that came out in the 70s Mormon musical that's built on this Mormon theological teaching that we were all created as spirits, spirit children of heavenly father and mothers, and that we all existed as spirit children in what's called the pre existence before the earth was created. So we're all up in this heaven like thing before the earth is created with heavenly father and mothers and all the spirit children.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] And what has been taught and what was passed on to the Saturday's Warrior musical was this idea that in the pre existence we met our parents or our children and our siblings and we all agreed in the preexistence to become family.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] But also built into that is, and this is in the drama of the Saturday's Worry musical, that if you don't live righteously, you might forfeit the chance for one of your pre agreed upon children or siblings or parents to, you know, have you in this life.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] You know, the example of Savage Warrior is the parents are trying to decide whether or not to have their final kid. And one of the oldest sons is like mad about overpopulation of the earth and he's pressuring the parents not to have that baby.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] And so the baby, you know, Emily is up in heaven going, you promised, you promised, you know, basically begging the family to have the baby, the parents to have the baby, the brother to not pressure the parents did not have the baby so that she can come down and be with her predestined family versus some horrible family of color in a different country that isn't Mormon, which would be a disaster, you know what I mean? And so your parents would have your birth mom, but also your adoptive parents would have very much probably been influenced by Saturday's Warrior and those teachings, thinking also that you were a Spirit up in heaven that they had met before and that you were meant to come down to them and that they were meant to raise you. That's a long explanation, but I think it provides probably some important context.

Andrew Fish [01:04:30] Oh, for sure. I feel like I need to watch Saturday's Warrior again. Yeah, no, that definitely rings very true to just how my adoption was spoken about and thought of in our family all growing up. I don't know how many times I heard some version of my story from the pulpit.

Andrew Fish [01:05:07] I know my mom probably shared, you know, shared the story with every relief Society that she was ever in. And. But, yeah, it was. There was always just this sense that, you know, for whatever reason, that was the way that. That was the way that I had to come. And.

Andrew Fish [01:05:29] And so, you know, I think it was really natural for me to try to ascribe some kind of meaning to that, you know, and so for me, it was like, well, how. Why would I have to. Like, it might have been different if all my siblings were adopted. Cause then, you know, it's. I don't know, that sends me down a different logical path. But the fact that, you know, they had three natural children after that, it's like, well, why, you know, what other reason could there be then that, you know, something about that experience was what would, like, set my bio mom, you know, on, like, on the right. Back on the right path.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:15] It is interesting to reflect that you're. I mean, being you, I would imagine, but, like, that part of your identity is this, that. That your origin story is a Mormon faith promoting.

Andrew Fish [01:06:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:35] Story. Yeah.

Andrew Fish [01:06:38] Yeah. I mean, my.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] Well,

Andrew Fish [01:06:44] as I. As I grew up, you know, this. This ended up kind of being, like, the main pillar of my testimony. So as I, you know, I don't ever remember any particular moment when my parents told me I was adopted. It's just something that I always, always knew, you know, and again, they always treated it like something. Something special. It was never.

Andrew Fish [01:07:14] I mean, it probably helped that I kind of had the privilege of at least kind of looking like my mother. So, like, we both have blonde hair and blue eyes. And so, you know, no, like, nobody ever believed me that I was adopted. Like, if I would tell friends that I was, they'd basically have to, like, go to my house and my mom would have to confirm it because they just generally didn't believe me.

Andrew Fish [01:07:40] So, you know, I think that there's definitely. There's definitely some, like, luck and privilege in that that I didn't have everybody constantly questioning, like, like, are you adopted? Or, like, what you know, wondering, like, why do. Why don't I look anything like my family? Even though, like, when I objectively look at, like.

Andrew Fish [01:08:02] I mean, I don't think I look anything like my father, but we're both, you know, about the same height, and so it's. It's plausible. Especially when you, like, see my mom next to her. My siblings, I definitely look different than my. Like, they all have darker hair than I do, but, you know, I mean, sometimes, like, that happens in.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:21] So just families, too.

Andrew Fish [01:08:23] Yeah. So I never, like, had a feeling of not belonging.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:27] Can I ask you just a quick question? Growing up, did you ever have moments growing up where you did feel different or that within your family system or, you know, that within yourself you felt othered in some way? Or would you say that the origin story and your experience of your family kind of covered for a lot of that?

Andrew Fish [01:08:59] Yes, that. Yeah, no, I. I don't. I don't ever. I really don't ever remember feeling, like, out of place or different or like I didn't belong. Like, I know that, you know, even when I was. Even when I was pissed at my parents or, you know, upset as a kid, like, I never threw, like, you're not my real parents at them. It just. Yeah. I always felt as much a part of the family, as much their child as any of my. As any of my siblings. If not maybe more because, like, I was the first one. And so.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:43] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [01:09:45] And I. I mean, like, have kind of a running joke in my family. Like, I just refer to myself as being purchased. And, you know, and so I would sometimes, like, tease my siblings, be like, oh, like, they had to pay a lot of money for me. Like, not. Not obviously understanding that, you know, it costs money to also birth a child. But. But, yeah, I mean, it almost like. I don't know if anything, it almost felt like even though maybe my sister is the actual miracle, I always felt like, you know, my provenance was golden boy.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:28] Interesting.

Andrew Fish [01:10:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Instead of being broken, you were chosen or something, right?

Andrew Fish [01:10:33] Well, yeah, I mean, I had to, like, I had to arrive through a very specific and special, you know, special track. Nice.

John Dehlin [01:10:41] That's good framing.

Andrew Fish [01:10:43] Yeah, it's very helpful. But also, you know, all of my, like my grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, like, it was kind of. It was. They all approached it the same way. Like it was the miracle baby.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] The miracle child.

Andrew Fish [01:11:01] Yeah, it was. It was. Rather than ever being weird, it was just. It was special.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:05] Don't we, like the framing for, like, every baby? Yeah, but every baby in truth is a miracle.

Andrew Fish [01:11:12] Oh, yeah, I don't.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:13] But yes.

Andrew Fish [01:11:13] No.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] But there's also the reverse. There's probably a very common framing. My mom didn't want me or my parents didn't want me. And it doesn't sound like you were plagued with that either.

Andrew Fish [01:11:22] No, no, never. Never that. And I think that, you know, again, going back to the way that my bio mom was able to just frame her letter to me and to them, you know, she made it painstakingly clear that this had nothing to do with not being wanted and everything to do with being loved.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:44] That's right.

Coming of Age in a Mormon Family

Andrew Fish [01:11:47] So I guess as a, you know, as a child and teenager, grew up in a pretty quintessential Mormon family. What city? So I. I grew up, so from like 7 to almost 14, I lived in Orem. And then my dad, I'd mentioned previously that he'd, you know, he'd.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] That's in Utah, near Provo, for those who don't know.

Andrew Fish [01:12:18] Yeah. So he'd gone into the foundry business. He had opened his own foundry. And then when I was almost 14, he moved that foundry. It was in Salt Lake. And he'd been commuting for years and hating it. And this was like, Right during all of that, like, nightmare i15 construction preceding the Olympics.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] Wait, oh, has that ever ended? I was going to say. But yeah, it was particularly bad during Olympic.

Andrew Fish [01:12:40] Yeah, but so he was. He was, you know, he was commuting during a lot of. Just that revamp of i15. And so, you know, it would take him like sometimes an hour and a half or more just to, you know, so ends up moving it to. Moving his business to Nei. And so then that's where I. That's where I spent my high school years was in Nefi.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] Nephi is near Lehi. No, wait, Nephi is where?

Andrew Fish [01:13:05] South. It's 40 minutes south of Provo.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] Oh, that's right near the lavender fields.

Andrew Fish [01:13:11] Yeah, yeah, a little bit south of. So Mona is.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] That's right.

Andrew Fish [01:13:15] Mona is where they presently live. And then. But yeah, Nephi is another six miles. Yeah, in. In Nephi, that's where Kyle Ashworth of

John Dehlin [01:13:26] Latter Gay Stories, he referred Andrew to us. Hey, Kyle.

Andrew Fish [01:13:30] Hello, Kyle. But, yeah, so, you know, my. It feels like for most of my, like, childhood and teen years, my dad was, you know, always in. Always in a bishopric or, you know, in young men's or scouts. So, you know, just church was very central, central to our lives. And, you know, I think I probably experienced most of the kind of similar teen boy experiences Growing up as a Mormon, I recently dug out an old first Strength of Youth pamphlet and just was a little bit astounded by how much that just set up my entire teenage years to be just full of shame.

John Dehlin [01:14:31] Explain that to the Nevermormons.

Andrew Fish [01:14:33] Oh man. I mean, just briefly. Well, so it's the Strength of Youth pamphlet. It was this kind of like, like little 2324 page booklet of guidelines for how to be a righteous and good youth of the church. And so it had all kinds of standards related to like dress, which I mean, you know, that set up a lot of conflict like between me and my dad in particular. Cause I. There's some line in there about, you know, how you present yourself or the way you dress sends a message to the people around you and influences the way that other people act. So you know, for me, like, I was into, like, I wanted to be like a.

Andrew Fish [01:15:17] I was like into punk rock in high school and so, you know, wanted to wear baggy jeans and color my hair and studded belts. And my dad, my dad wasn't a fan of any of that. And you know, just felt like the messages you're sending, like people are gonna think things about you. And I mean, I remember just hearing like my parents like arguing through the, through the air ducts about me. And my mom was generally like, he's a good kid, it's fine. Like he wants to color his hair, it doesn't mean he's like doing drugs and. Cause like I genuinely was like I was a super straight laced teenager and.

Andrew Fish [01:15:58] But so that, that's, you know, set up some conflicts between me and my father. You know, the, like just the fact that, you know, in, in the pamphlet, like in the section around, you know, like sexual purity and all of that, like it literally had like, when it's talking about like the law of chastity and what's forbidden, you know, it has sexual relations, relations, petting, sex, perversions, and then in parentheses, homosexuality, rape, incest, followed immediately by masturbation, which like rape, incest,

John Dehlin [01:16:37] same sex, love, masturbation, they're all kind of indistinguishable.

Andrew Fish [01:16:41] Yeah. And I mean, I know that all

John Dehlin [01:16:44] sins next to murder basically, right?

Andrew Fish [01:16:45] Yeah, I know grammatically, like the parentheses is important and. But like, you know, my 13, 14, 15 year old brain just saw that order. Homosexuality, rape, incest, masturbation. And so, you know, I spent a lot of my teenage years full of a lot of self, self loathing thinking I was, you know, addicted to very natural human, human functions.

Andrew Fish [01:17:17] And you Know, part of. I mean, that in addition to just in every single priesthood session, just harping on, like, the evils and the dangers of pornography, like, I thought during. Again, most of my teenage years and even early 20s that, you know, because I looked at porn, I don't know, every couple of months that I was. I was an addict. And.

Andrew Fish [01:17:45] And underlying, like, there was always kind of underlying any of that. Any of that shame. And why bring it up is because I always felt like not only was I. Like, I was letting down not just like my parents, but heavenly father who had also done so much to orchestrate my life and guide me into this. This family. And I'm, like, destroying my forever family with, like, these horrible evil things that. That I was doing, like, these sins next to. Next to murder and tarnishing the miracle

John Dehlin [01:18:24] of your adoption and.

Andrew Fish [01:18:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] You know, your family story.

Andrew Fish [01:18:28] Yeah. Almost being, like, being ungrateful for it. And like, I. I remember this really poignant moment we'd gone to. I think it was maybe the opening of the. Maybe it was the Linden Temple. Is there one in Pleasant Grove? I don't remember, but somewhere in that region, I think there's a Pleasant Grove Temple. And I must have been 15, maybe 15, 16, and we'd just gone to the open house. And, you know, I remember on the drive home, I guess this must have been a time where, you know, I'd. I don't know, logged maybe four or five, six months with. Without one of the sins next to murder. And I remember just thinking, like, almost praying that, like, our van would just, like, flip over and we would all die. Because I was like, I feel like we're all. Like we're all safe. Like, we.

Struggles with Worthiness and Faith

John Dehlin [01:19:37] You die worthy versus relapse and then die unworthy.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:42] That's so heavy.

Andrew Fish [01:19:43] Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, what a wildly horrible thing for, like, a teenage to literally wish that his whole family could die in that moment. Because it felt like a rare moment of worthiness, like, where we would, you know, I'll be able to be together forever.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:04] But.

Andrew Fish [01:20:07] Yeah. So one thing that's always kind of nagged at me, or I think maybe like, the first thing that ever nagged at me about. Related to my faith in the church was when I got my patriarchal blessing. So I. You know, I've. I hadn't. I hadn't read it in probably 15. I don't know, 15 years, and I got it out, you know, for the first time maybe six months ago. But even having not read it, there was always one line that I Just vividly and distinctly remembered. Which was. It was kind of in the, I think maybe the kind of in the middle of my, of the blessing, it said like Nephi of old, you too were born of goodly parents. And I remember sitting there in that. I don't know. Do never. Mormons need to know what a patriarchal blessing is.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] I mean, you can just give a brief.

Andrew Fish [01:21:14] So it's just this. Every LDS person is entitled to one and usually you get it when you're a teenager and it's kind of like a. It's like a little miniature prophecy. So every stake, from my understanding has a stake patriarch. And they give you this, they give you this blessing that kind of like lays out the direction, the direction of your life. And in addition to that, it gives you, you know, it gives you your lineage in terms of like, like what house or like what tribe in the house of Israel you're from. And then it, you know, makes a lot of different now, I recognize as very vague promises about, you know, where, like the direction that your life might go. And so it's kind of like Mormon fortune telling. Yeah, yeah, it feels very much like

John Dehlin [01:22:10] that, but sort of approved, sanctioned. Yeah. From God. It's like God telling you, giving you a roadmap for your life.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:17] Right.

Andrew Fish [01:22:18] And you know, from my understanding, they're generally just kind of vague and basic. Like you someday will take a sweet daughter of God to the temple and you know, have a family and serve

John Dehlin [01:22:32] a mission for the church. Right.

Andrew Fish [01:22:34] You'll serve in many like, important callings. And so it's all things that like.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] And rise in the morning of the first resurrection to be exalted and become like God.

Andrew Fish [01:22:46] Unless you got one of the blessings over the years that said you'd be alive when Christ would come.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:52] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Or you'll be an apostle.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:53] Apostle someday or.

Andrew Fish [01:22:55] Yeah, yeah. Mine. It was disappointing to me that I didn't get the apostleship nod, but I guess it turned out okay. But yeah, I remember that moment. He's like, you were born of goodly parents. And I was like, wait a minute,

John Dehlin [01:23:12] wait, it's like that.

Andrew Fish [01:23:14] No, I, I wasn't like, it's like that album scratch. It's like, yeah. I was like, no, I know very distinctly that I was born of at least one badly parent. And I was like, I was a product of fornication. Like, how, how is he going to say that? Like again, just bear in mind, this is like teenage Mormon mind thinking. Wouldn't speak of my right birth and conception and that yeah, but. But that's. That's how I felt at the time. And so I was like, how, like, how does this guy, he can literally, like, tell me, like, which, like, what blood of Israel is flowing through my veins, but he doesn't know that I'm adopted.

Andrew Fish [01:23:56] And I remember bringing that up to my mom at some point. I was like, how come? Like, why do you think this says that I born of goodly parents? Because, like, I'm a dumb. She's like, well, I mean, it's all metaphor. Yeah, it's like. Like, it can still be like. It's like referring to us. You know, it's just. It's born is just. It's just, you know, it's a word. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:19] So what is born really?

Andrew Fish [01:24:21] What is born really? Like, we're all born. It doesn't matter. But that was just. It was something that, like, was always just kind of like hanging out in the back of my mind. And I was like, no, I was raised of goodly parents. I wasn't born of goodly parents.

Andrew Fish [01:24:44] So I guess the other piece is that as I was, you know, as I was growing up, I never really felt strongly that I felt the spirit. So, you know, I would sit in, you know, these testimony meetings or conference, you know, general conference or, you know, whatever, and, you know, people around me would just be like, crying or, you know, talking about, like, I just feel like this burning in my bosom. And I just never got the burning in the bosom. And, you know, I remember even, like many, like, the first time finished the Book of Mormon as a. As a kid, like, you know, trying to take this, like, special thoughtful moment and praying, like, you know, doing Moroni's promise.

Andrew Fish [01:25:38] Moroni's promise. And just kind of sitting there in silence with, like, nothing and feeling very baffled by that. And I. And, you know, I kind of always just assumed that there was something wrong with me. That, like, maybe I just. I wasn't being righteous enough or, you know, I wasn't like, keeping my covenants well enough. And, you know, I. I had a handful of experiences, like. Like, I went to EFY a couple of times. And so, you know, like, there would be moments where it'd be. Which is like, basically like church youth camp at BYU or that used. I don't know if they still do it, but the only moments where I.

Andrew Fish [01:26:29] I guess how I kind of started to identify or try to define feeling the spirit was just like when I feel kind of like excited. And usually that would be if I Was, you know, like, testifying about, I don't know, like, bearing my testimony probably about my adoption, but just, like, feeling, like, a little bit excited. I was like, oh, I guess that's probably the spirit. Or if I just felt sort of calm, I was like, I guess that's probably the spirit. And but I, you know, I just never felt. Had any, like, really strong moments or strong impressions. And so I very much just leaned on.

A Mission and the Search for Belonging

Andrew Fish [01:27:11] My adoption story is kind of like, well, it's like, too crazy for it not to be. Not to be true or for there not to, like, you know, for God not to have had some kind of a hand in it. And so, yeah, that's really where I, you know, kind of like, that was my foundation. And so that, like, even that little moment in the patriarchal blessing where, like, they kind of got that wrong like that, like, that put some cracks in my shelf and I guess one other. So during my teenage years, one of the things that I think my parents always did right was, as I'd mentioned previously, they never came off as defensive or insecure about my adoption. And in fact, my mom was always

John Dehlin [01:28:07] really, really

Andrew Fish [01:28:10] encouraging about, you know, me if I ever wanted to, trying to find. Find my birth parents. Adoption now is so wildly different than it was at that time.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:26] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [01:28:27] So, you know, now here's so often, like, I think most of. The. Most of the. Most of the people that I've, like, youth that I've worked with as a therapist who are adopted, they know their bio parents or they've met them or they have some kind of contact. And so at this time, at least with LDS Social Services, all adoptions were sealed. And so the only way that you could ever make any kind of contact or find out, the only way I could have ever found out who my bio mother was was if there was some kind of, like, a medical emergency and I needed, like, a kidney or a blood transfusion or something that they.

Andrew Fish [01:29:19] That was like a last resort, then they might unseal them and go that way. So, you know, barring a catastrophic health failure, there was kind of no way I was ever gonna get to know, like, know who she was. And so I pretty much assumed that that, you know, was probably my reality.

Andrew Fish [01:29:39] However, I was also fairly certain that because I was born in Cedar City and knowing that, you know, like, my bio dad had been a professor, she a student, I deduced that, oh, it's probably suu, there's a pretty good chance of it. And so it's like, well, maybe one way that I can find her is if I find him. And the way maybe I can find him is if I look at, you know, was there a college professor of music there in 1982 and then not there anymore in 1983.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:17] Right.

Andrew Fish [01:30:17] And so, you know, I kind of always had this idea in the back of my mind. And so at some point I was telling my high school, so I kind of switched or got into a new friend group partway through my senior year of high school, one of which happened to be Kyle and Kyle Ashworth of Latter Gay Stories.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] Hey Kyle.

Andrew Fish [01:30:41] Yeah, hello again. And so one day Kyle comes over to my house and he's like, he's like, fish, we found your dad. I was like, what? He's like, no, no, like I found your dad. And he has, he has a yearbook from. It was either 81 or 82 from Suu. And he's like, opens it up. He's like, it's this guy. And that's pretty proactive of Kyle.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Yeah, for you.

Andrew Fish [01:31:09] But does it surprise you at all? I feel like it's the most Kyle thing that has ever, ever happened. But yeah, so he, you know, points out this like, kind of goofy looking dude and I was like, that is not my dad. Like that guy, he just looks too goofy. Like he doesn't look like me. They're like, he looks just like you. And I was like, no, it that for sure not. Not my dad, whatever.

Andrew Fish [01:31:41] And so, I mean, there was nothing I could really do with that. So I just kind of shelved it. Shelved it and moved on with life and. Trying to think for continuity's sake, if I should just go to share that the resolution to that story. Turns out that was my dad.

Andrew Fish [01:32:08] But I'll maybe come back to that later. But so let's see. So yeah, I guess as a missionary, you know, I used it. I use my adoption story as kind of this like faith, faith promoting story and mission was, was kind of similar to the rest of my life. Like, I still struggled to like feel like I strongly felt the spirit and but like really kind of just identified that, you know, that feeling of when you're sharing something that you very much believe in and feel passionate about.

Andrew Fish [01:32:54] With someone who doesn't. Doesn't know about that thing, you feel like there's that kind of like excitement, like that kind of animated feeling. And so I was like, I guess that's like, that must be the spirit. Which, you know, eventually that becomes problematic for me because I also eventually realized like, well, there's lots of times where I feel that feeling like, for example, if, like, one of my favorite things to do is like, is to share either film or music or television or something that I think is like, moving or beautiful with someone who hasn't experienced that yet. And oftentimes I would find myself feeling the spirit when sharing a very non.

Andrew Fish [01:33:44] Like something where the spirit's not allowed to be so. Like music that has the F bomb or rated R films or something in that effect. And so identifying the spirit as that becomes problematic for me at some point. But still, I ultimately kind of leaned on that adoption story as that has to be like, the church has to be true because it's too improbable. And I think as. I don't know, the mission was hard for me. It was. I think it was an area where

John Dehlin [01:34:26] I

Andrew Fish [01:34:28] feel genuinely shocked that I didn't leave the mission with like, diagnosable scrupulosity because I was just a very, like, just by the books, by the rules missionary. Like, I was one of those psychopaths who like, you know, the rules said we had to be in, you know, in our apartments by 9:30. And if it's like 9:25 and we're, you know, a mile away, like, like we're booking it in our suits to like, you know, meet that letter of. Letter of the law and be in the door by, you know, by 9, 9:30.

Andrew Fish [01:35:08] But I, I also found that, that, you know, everything you hear before going on a mission is the best two years. Like, in any, Any homecoming talk you would hear, like, they would just talk about, like, I just loved the people so much. Like, I loved it. It was the greatest time of my life. And I just. I never felt that way. Like, it was. In a lot of ways it felt like kind of drudgery to me. And, and I, you know, I think my family would probably have a different perspective on that just because of like, how I wrote letters home, you know, because I wanted it to sound like every other mission that I.

Andrew Fish [01:35:53] What I assumed every other missionary was experiencing was this just again, this like, wonderful time where you're just getting lost in the service and just loving. Loving what you're doing, loving the people. And I found that I often didn't love the people. Like, in a lot of ways I felt like the, like, the message that I had and like the way that I'd kind of grown up with a lot of really sort of conservative, like, bootstrap ideals was like, you know, these people, like these, you know, people are in poverty because, like, they're Lazy or because, like, they're not. Like, they haven't accepted the gospel, or if they don't accept the gospel, it's because, like, you know, they.

Andrew Fish [01:36:39] They're just not great people. So I feel like it almost. It made me. I felt frequently judgmental towards, like, I loved people who. Who would hear the message and would accept the gospel. But, like, looking back, like, I honestly feel a great deal of kind of guilt and shame around just, like, what my mindset was like on the mission that, like, I was supp to be a representative of Christ who, you know, is this person that loves everyone and doesn't, you know, doesn't judge people. And looking back on that, I feel like I was incredibly judgmental and, you know, came home with a.

Andrew Fish [01:37:24] Again, not to the point of, you know, having scrupulosity, but I feel like I carried a lot of that home with me, at least for the first while, which I think kind of set me up to crash and burn a little bit as soon as, like, I stopped being basically perfect or what I thought. What I thought would be perfect.

Andrew Fish [01:37:45] But, you know, as I'd mentioned, like, if my patriarchal blessing kind of put, like, the first, like, little crack on my shelf, it was ultimately Prop 8 that ended up shattering that shelf. So for the first couple years after I got home from my mission, I stayed pretty active and did all the things I was supposed to do and then just kind of gradually lost the mission glow and started just being a regular human again and struggling with some of the things that I'd struggled with, you know, and, like, growing up in high school and.

Andrew Fish [01:38:31] And then just kind of started feeling increasingly uncomfortable in the church. So, you know, I was living in Utah county and had, like, slightly longer hair, would wear, you know, colored shirts to church. And such a statement is really.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:53] Is.

Andrew Fish [01:38:54] Yeah. Which I mean, and I know at the time I was doing it in part because I was like. I was like, wanted. Wanting to prove a point. You know, it's express.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:04] It's expressive.

Andrew Fish [01:39:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:06] And teen years. Right. There's a developmental wiring there. Individualize.

Andrew Fish [01:39:12] Absolutely. And, you know, like, the. The closer I got to my, you know, mid-20s, the more I started to, like, panic because I was getting pretty old and was not married, and I would end up in these, like, you know.

John Dehlin [01:39:29] Yeah. Why didn't you get married right off your mission? I know it's a presumptuous question, but

Andrew Fish [01:39:34] it is for lack of trying.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:38] My effort was very high.

Andrew Fish [01:39:40] My effort was valiant in that regard. No, I mean, I dated and I guess like, what it would boil down to is I never, I just never found anyone that I was interested in for longer than like a couple of months.

Andrew Fish [01:39:57] And like I, the first girl that I dated for, you know, longer than I think, a few weeks, I felt like I was like, I probably need to marry her because, like, I think she'd be a great mom. I'm not really super interested in her, but like, I maybe, like, I can probably learn to be and, and, and so glad I didn't follow that train. But yeah, just for whatever reason, by 24, just an old unmarried man, a menace to societies, I think Brigham Young would have put it. And.

Andrew Fish [01:40:41] But, you know, I'd be in these BYU wards with like these, you know, like 21 year old, like recently returned missionaries and, you know, girls around the same age and just feeling so old and weird and out of place and, and so like that kind of started to shift me in, you know, towards a little bit of inactivity that coupled with, you know, like had some law of chastity issues, like, would just go like a little bit too far with girlfriends and then would start on the arduous road to repentance with working with a bishop.

Andrew Fish [01:41:18] And as it would turn out, not being able to take the sacrament ever and often not being able to have callings and never getting to go to the temple doesn't exactly nurture your spirit and foster testimony growth and make you want to attend.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:34] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [01:41:34] Cause it's, you know, I mean, it's, it can be such a shaming process. You know, like if you're, I mean, if you're sitting there in a college singles ward and someone hands you like the, you know, the sacrament tray and you pass it along either, oh, he's addicted to porn, he's addicted to masturbation, or he's like having sex. Like that's, you know, that's at least what you're assuming that everybody else is, you know, everybody around you is thinking and so maybe gay or that. Yeah, I mean, it could, could be either way. Like something next to murder, borderline murderer, no matter what.

Andrew Fish [01:42:16] And so, you know, you find like really good reasons to not make it to, you know, sacrament meeting because, like, it's, it's humiliating. And, and not only that, but, you know, every, all of my siblings, you know, I think they probably got married around my mid-20s, like all within a few years of each other and I wasn't able to attend any of their weddings. And you know, because in Mormonism, because of Mormonism, if you don't have, you know, a current valid temple recommend if your siblings are getting married in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:42:55] Even if you're a parent.

Andrew Fish [01:42:57] Yeah, even if, even if you're a parent. I mean I, for at least, I guess it probably all of them actually. But the only reason I hesitate is I don't remember if my grandmother came to all of them. But so my mom's mom who's, you know, died a Methodist.

Andrew Fish [01:43:17] She, you know, I sat outside the temple with grandma and, and like the children and like a couple of cousins with tattoos. You know, whenever, whenever anybody got married and, and everybody knew why I was out there. It wasn't because like I, I didn't believe in the church. It was because I was unworthy to be in there. And so, you know, not only like, am I this huge disappointment to, or feeling like a huge disappointment to my siblings that like, sorry, I couldn't, you know, be good enough for like a short amount of time. Like I couldn't, I couldn't try hard enough to be able to make it to like the most important day of your life.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:57] Yeah, right.

Andrew Fish [01:43:58] But just also assuming like, like my parents have to be so disappointed, you know. And again, underlying all of that is like, you know, like I'm kind of blowing the whole, blowing the whole miracle.

Navigating Same-Sex Attraction in the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:44:12] Wow, that's hard. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] Yeah.

Andrew Fish [01:44:17] I didn't love, didn't love that era.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:21] I can see why.

Andrew Fish [01:44:25] So, yeah, so I guess by the time Prop 8 rolled around, I was pretty primed to have the full shelf crash. Just because try as I might, I just never was able to. I think probably after maybe three years, I don't think I ever was able to get another temple recommend. Like I would get close sometimes and then slip up and then start the whole process, process back.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] You're on like a decade long shame parade, basically.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:58] So exhausting. That is so exhausting.

John Dehlin [01:45:01] And other people just lie, right?

Andrew Fish [01:45:03] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] That.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:05] So when you're on, it didn't work for me.

Andrew Fish [01:45:07] Yeah, well. And like, and I, you know, I remember at one point I had like a really lovely bishop who, you know, he was really understanding and like he kind of got me fast tracked through a few things and I got really close with him and then I ended up moving, like moving to a different ward.

Andrew Fish [01:45:32] But I remember like one of the most frustrating experiences that I had with a bishop and I think this was about the last time that I tried was. So it was, it was a bishop at a BYU ward and you know, I was working, working with him on some, some chastity issues. And.

Andrew Fish [01:45:56] And like, I was really, like, struggling with my testimony at this time. I was like, barely, you know, I could barely convince myself to go to go to church. I had. I was working at Macaroni Grill. And so I often worked Sundays. And.

Andrew Fish [01:46:12] And so I also, like, my ward met in the afternoon. And so most of the, like, if I had to work a Sunday, I couldn't even make it to church. And there was another ward that I'd previously been in that I had some friends in, and I felt actually kind of motivated to go there. And so I went to this bishop. I was like, hey, like, I'm, like, hanging by a thread here.

Andrew Fish [01:46:35] I have no motivation to come to this word because it was again, like, just an uncomfy BYU ward with a lot of young people. This other ward was like, just older people who felt more my age and just, you know, and I was like, I. I do feel motivated to go to this other ward. It meets at 9am so even on days where I have to work, like, I can still go to church. And. And I will continue to meet with you, but if I can just attend this other ward, if you need the other bishop to verify with you that I'm going, that's totally fine.

Andrew Fish [01:47:08] And he was just like, this is where your records are. This is where you need to come. Of course, if on a day where you have to work, if you need to go to the other ward on that day, that's okay, but this is where you need to be. And I was just like, okay. And never, like, never went to see him again. But, yeah, what had kind of, I guess preceded that a little bit was. So, as I mentioned, I'd gotten a job at Macaroni Grill and

John Dehlin [01:47:41] ended up

Andrew Fish [01:47:41] working with three gay men who were basically the. I mean, as far as I had known, they were the first gay men that I'd ever. That I'd ever known. So it turns out they were the first open gay men that I'd ever become friends with. But, you know, over the course of like, seven, eight months, you know, my whole kind of life or my whole worldview just kind of flipped because, you know, previous to that, you know, I'd grown up in a homophobic culture and, you know, not. I think the quickest way out of. Out of ignorance or bigotry is to get to know somebody about whom you feel bigotry or are ignorant. And. And so Kyle.

John Dehlin [01:48:35] Did you have any clue about Kyle? No.

Andrew Fish [01:48:37] Yeah, no idea. Like, never. Never would have. Never would have guessed that he. He Did a. He did a remarkable job at just burying that as. As deep as he could and, and hiding it off. Yeah. I mean, found the box and crushed it.

Andrew Fish [01:48:57] But. Yeah. So I, you know, I realized, like, oh, like, gay people are people too. And, you know, they're not everything that, like, I was taught to believe. And I remember recently I was going through some old journals of mine and I'd found this journal entry that I'd written.

Andrew Fish [01:49:23] It was kind of late 2007, and, you know, I'd gone bowling or gone. Maybe it was like fat cats or something in Provo, but gone there with some friends from Macaroni Grill, including one of the. One of the gay men that I'd become pretty close, close friends with. And, and I was just kind of reflecting in my journal, like, you know, I just.

Andrew Fish [01:49:48] Like this guy, he, like, he's such an awesome, awesome person. Like, just a great dude. And it's just unfortunate that, like, you know, he has this like, horrible test, you know, that like, God has given. Because at that time, you know, I mean, church almost kind of presented like, well, like having homosexual thoughts. Like, that's just. It's just a test, you know, it's like, it's like any other temptation that a person might have. And so that's how I thought of it. And I was just like, I just hope that, you know, Heavenly Father is, like, merciful to him and is, like, understanding, because that seems like it would be a really hard test.

Andrew Fish [01:50:32] And so it wasn't too many months after that that Proposition 8 in California, the proposition that was trying to overturn the legality of same sex marriage, was launched and that the Mormon Church was a huge financial and manpower contributor to the biggest. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] From a different. From a totally different state. Right?

Andrew Fish [01:51:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Yeah. And from Utah, marshaling all its money man. Human resources to defeat legislation or to take away same sex marriage from Californians, you know.

Andrew Fish [01:51:16] Yeah. And so at that time, I was just like, how are we telling. I mean, not. Not just people who aren't part of our religion, but people in another state who aren't part of our religion. Like, how are we telling them that they can't marry who they love?

Andrew Fish [01:51:39] And. And for the first time, like, it. Something about the church just felt deeply wrong to me. And, and I felt like the leaders are not right on this. And I thought to my, you know, my friends that I worked with, I was like, why can't they marry who they, who they want to who they love? Like, that is like, that is their right. And so once I kind of, once I questioned one thing then, you know, all of the other things that I'd always just kind of put on the shelf, you know, the priesthood and temple band, polygamy, you know, a handful of other things, just issues with the Book of Mormon.

Andrew Fish [01:52:24] That's when I started to think about those things and was like, well, if they're wrong about, you know, if they're wrong about this, then like, maybe they were wrong about some of those other things. And so that, that kind of started a, I don't know, a year, year and a half, maybe two years of just like drifting, drifting further and further away from the church. But like also just so much like studying and pondering and just trying to, like, trying to find something to hold on to. Like, I remember, like I said, you know, the whole, like, I grew up literally believing that The Earth was 6,000 years old.

Andrew Fish [01:53:05] And, and so I remember thinking once, like, well, how, you know, how on earth does anything fit within a 6,000 year timeline? Like, how are there fossils? How are there all these things? And so I remember one day I was thinking like, okay, maybe what if when the Lord was creating all the things and he started the world process going and things were living and existing and dying up until. And like, you know, like evolution was happening and you know, like, evolution happened until like, right, the point where like, man was ready to be man and then he, like, like, you know, blocked off like the Garden of Eden, stuck Adam in there and then like.

Andrew Fish [01:53:57] And that's what, you know, that's what started things. So like, that would account for like fossils and fossil fuels and like, you know, all of the, you know, clear evidence that death happened, you know, long before 6,000 years ago. And I remember one, one day I was kind of, I was on the phone with my dad.

Andrew Fish [01:54:18] You know, it's like, what about this idea, like, just trying to like, grasp at straws and he's like, that's not what the scriptures teach. That's not what the prophets teach. And I was like, okay. And so it just felt like everywhere where I was trying to kind of grasp at anything, that it was just kind of getting, getting shut down and not that, like, had, you know, my dad been like, oh yeah, maybe that could be that, like, that would have, you know, shifted me much. But it was maybe it's just kind of more along the lines of just how much more quickly, like orthodox approaches just tended, like, ended up pushing, pushing me out.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:02] Right?

Andrew Fish [01:55:05] So. So yeah, I'd already, you know, I'd already kind of become Less active. And. And so once, once I, you know, was pretty much not believing in the church any longer. I tried to mostly hide that from my parents, you know, like, for a long time, like, I really avoided just spending any kind of alone time with my dad because, like, you know, there were a few times during the, during the period where like, my siblings were kind of getting married where, like, you know, he'd catch me off guard and just be like, so, you know, how's your. How's your repentance coming along? And. Which there's like, not a worse question to come from a parent. So any parents out there avoid that question?

Margi Dehlin [01:55:52] Not a winner.

Andrew Fish [01:55:52] Yeah, it's. Yeah, it is the furthest thing from a winner. But so I just like, always avoided any kind of alone time because it. Because you know, what that question or questions like that did was just like, reignite all of that, all of that shame. And so what I, you know, underlying all this is, you know, kind of this whole idea of like, again, I'm, like I'm throwing away my birthright. I'm, you know, I'm forsaking or, or like ruining, you know, this elaborate plan to have, like, landed me in the family, like the forever family that I'm in. And. And I'm. I'm losing that.

Andrew Fish [01:56:44] Which now shifted to like, once I really stopped, kind of stopped believing, then it just turned into a lot of shame around. Like, I've like, tarnished this, like this miracle for my family. Like, I've kind of destroyed this, you know, I'm like, destroying this like, really special, special thing for them.

Andrew Fish [01:57:09] So, you know, and it was interesting to me, you know, like once, you know, much later finding out, you know, as my biomom had mentioned in that. In that section that I read earlier, that she always, you know, felt like faith came so much easier to her siblings and not so much for her. And I, I found myself at that time often feeling the same way. Like, why, like, why are my siblings all.

Andrew Fish [01:57:42] Why is it so easy for them to be faithful and to like, believe in all of this and to like, walk the, you know, stay on the path? Maybe it is because, like, they were born of goodly parents and I wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:55] Ouch. So that other or different came later. Remember how I was asking that in kind of your childhood or teen. So it's interesting where if it did, I don't know that you'd talk about it that way, but it seems a little bit more like you're suffering and as you've struggled and then you do that compare thing.

Andrew Fish [01:58:17] Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, it is interesting because, you know, my whole growing up life, I didn't. Didn't really experience that until, like, until I left the church. And that's when it felt like the most pronounced and the most prominent. And.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:43] Yeah, I think it's also interesting, you know, this is complicated, so I'm not going to try and make it overly simple. But I do think it's interesting sometimes, you know, we look at specialness or like this. This story that, you know, was part of your origin and that you were special, that like a miracle happened to kind of usher or. And I think, you know, there can be a really natural reaction to that of, like, how beautiful, how amazing. And I think, you know, what happens so often with, like, preferential treatment, special stories, people being kind of. Yeah. More favored. And I'm not saying you were, but with many of those kind of scenarios, they play out with a shadow, a bit of a shadow side to it that oftentimes we don't see in the beginning, but oftentimes when you just. You follow the story through, it's this. It's so much to hold, though.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] It's like Buddhism says, golden chains are still chains.

Andrew Fish [01:59:57] Yeah. Well, it just. It sets. It sets you up for a huge crash.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:02] Exactly.

Coming Out to Family and Faith Crisis

Andrew Fish [02:00:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] Because you're super special, but then unworthy all the time. Super special. Constantly unworthy, but.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:10] And inevitably we're all human, and we're also special, but we're human. And so when you're in touch with your human inside and what we don't know and what we haven't experienced yet. Right. Then inevitably. Yeah. So just feeling for that. For you.

Andrew Fish [02:00:26] Thank you. Yeah, thank you. So I guess, like, the ultimate end to the specialness was when I came out to my parents about not believing the church anymore. And I. I don't. I don't remember, you know, ultimately kind of what finally led me to tell. I. I think I was just tired of trying to hide it and pretend like, you know, I was still sort of believing.

Andrew Fish [02:01:01] But I told them in the, you know, in like, it was a seven, eight page email. And. And what I. What I really wanted to convey to them was, was just the reasons why and that it wasn't their fault. Like, I think I even included, like a brain cancer metaphor. I was just like, you guys blaming yourself for this would be no different than, you know, if I ended up with brain cancer. And you asking, like, is there something that we did or didn't do right. Or could have done that would have prevented this? Like, of course not. You know, like, things like that happen.

Andrew Fish [02:01:40] And I think that this was just. This is where I was going to. I was going to arrive here regardless, you know, at some point. And so.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:50] So this was in your letter to them?

Andrew Fish [02:01:52] Yeah, so this is my letter describing this. Yeah. And I also, you know, I wanted them to understand that, like, I really did my due diligence. Like, it wasn't just because, you know, I wasn't leaving because, like, I wanted to sin or because, like, church was, like, too hard or, you know, all of the, like, really insulting reasons that people.

Andrew Fish [02:02:15] People get accused of leaving over. And. But yeah, I just want them to know that, like, I have put a lot of thought and a lot of prayer into this, and I just. I've gotten to a place where I. I don't believe it. Like, I can't believe it anymore.

Andrew Fish [02:02:34] So my. My mother, she responded pretty immediately and compassionately. And, you know, she told me, you know, I've, like, we've kind of suspected that, you know, that you were continuing to distance yourself from the church for a while. I'd also told her in the same email that I'd gotten my first tattoo. And she. She was like, honestly, like, I'm more shocked that you got a tattoo than that you don't believe in the church anymore, because I'm terrified of needles.

Andrew Fish [02:03:05] But. And then. So, you know, again, she was, you know, she was. She was kind about it. And then my father, he didn't respond for a couple of weeks, if I recall. And when he did it, it was, you know, kind of like, you know, you've. You've made important covenants and, like, you've made promises with the Lord. And, you know, I distinctly remember the line, like, you need to, you know, shake the blood from your garments and repent. And that was not a helpful response.

Andrew Fish [02:03:51] You know, it basically just. I was like, okay, well, it doesn't feel like you really read anything that. Anything that I said, so. Okay. And that. And that kind of started, you know, a years. Long period of just always, like, an undercurrent of tension between us. Like, again, I would just avoid at all costs, like, being alone with him because I was just always afraid that he would. He would bring up something about the church and then, like, you know, like, all the shame would come in and.

Andrew Fish [02:04:23] And, you know, I don't want to paint that to seem like, you know, like, we did. We no longer loved and cared for each other or like, he was. He was horrible to me. Like, I Mean, you know, in group settings, like, he still treated me like the father he'd always been. Like, he's a wonderful father. But there was, I just always knew that there was this, like, underlying, like, hurt and just a need to, like, reel me back in. And so over the, you know, course of several years, like, I would think that we would get to a place where, like, he'd kind of accepted it.

Andrew Fish [02:05:05] Like, I remember he'd invited me on a fishing trip that he'd, you know, done the year before with his brother and some of his sons and then my brother and some of my brothers in law. And so, you know, he invited me to that and I agreed to go, assuming that, like, my brother and brothers in law were going to come. And then remember a couple of days before that, finding out that it was just he and I driving, like, all the way to Flaming Gorge together, alone in a vehicle which, like, this was for sure the first and longest time we'd spent alone in a few years.

Andrew Fish [02:05:42] And so I was like, all right, well, we'll see how this goes and, and drive out there. It's fine. Like, it didn't, didn't ever come up. And then about, you know, 20 minutes into the drive home, I remember he said something like, so, like, your mom tells me that you're a secular humanist now. So, like, what does that mean? You believe about God? God? And I was like, all right, well. And so we then ended up having, you know, about a three hour conversation where I just kind of told him where I was and explained how I got there. A lot of things probably that were in the original email, and it ended up being a really good conversation.

Andrew Fish [02:06:29] I think that there was one point of, like, where it got contentious. It was actually right as we were about to stop at like a, at a gas station to refuel or something. And I was just kind of proving the point, like, what sort of, like what sort of God would allow a third of his children to be, like, tortured for eternity? Because, like, they, you know, they followed, like, Lucifer's plan. Like, either to me, like, they didn't have the full story or the understanding of, like, what that choice meant, or, I don't know, like, that's the only thing that makes sense. Like, they could.

Andrew Fish [02:07:14] Because what. Who would choose? Like, yeah, I'm going to go with, like, this Lucifer guy's plan, even though I know that you're going to cast me into eternal suffering forever. Worlds without end. Like, that's bonkers. That doesn't make any sense. And so he was like, well, like, agency, you know, like, if you. Like, sometimes, like, you have to let your children make their own choices. I was like, that's bad parenting. Like, if your toddler is running towards, like, the edge of a cliff, you're not going to be like, oh, agency. You know, like. Or you'd be a bad parent. Like, the toddler doesn't know what it means to run off the cliff.

Andrew Fish [02:07:52] And clearly, like, the third of souls that were cast into eternal suffering, like, they couldn't have known what that meant, you know? And at that point, we parked and got out of the car, and then we just kind of, like, reset and recalibrated and didn't return to that subject. But I remember by the time I got home, I was like, okay. I think he. Like, this was actually a really good conversation. I feel like he actually fully understands where I met. And. And so I think, you know, for the period of like, a year or so after that, I. I felt like I could act, like, really authentically around him and just felt like the, you know, the elephant that had previously been in the room was, you know, like, finally put down.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:39] And this is over years. Like, this is a process with him.

Andrew Fish [02:08:42] Yeah, this is. This was a long, long process, which

Margi Dehlin [02:08:45] is good for, I think, people to kind of hear.

Andrew Fish [02:08:48] Oh, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:49] A bit. Yeah.

Andrew Fish [02:08:52] Yeah. So sometime maybe a year or so after that, I'd been at home, and I was. I think it was for his. His birthday, maybe, and. And as I was driving, driving back to, you know, my home in Salt Lake, I was just feeling a lot of gratitude for him. And so I'd sent him a text and was just like, hey, I just want you to know, like, I love and appreciate you, and it means the world to me that, you know, you love me for who I am and accept me for who I am. And he didn't respond for about a week. And a week later, I was at a restaurant with some friends, and we were in the line to pay, and I got a text from him, and he.

Andrew Fish [02:09:39] And he said, I've been thinking a lot about what you said. I do love you, but I'm disheartened or disappointed by your choice to turn away from God. Life short. What then? And that kind of, like, flipped a rage switch for me. Mostly just, like, under the rage was just a lot of. A lot of hurt and shame.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] The words, I love you, but just don't belong together.

Andrew Fish [02:10:10] Yeah. Just never include the.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:11] But never a great setup. Also, I could imagine you maybe feeling. Tell me if this is right. But, like, really having a hang in there. And then the trajectory seems to be moving in a certain direction. So maybe also you were starting to have some hope. Hope. And then you get the text where you're like, oh, okay, I guess not.

Andrew Fish [02:10:35] I mean, I thought I was beyond hope. Like, I was like, no, we're good. Like, he gets it. He understands where I'm at. Like, it's like, we don't have to go through that stuff anymore. And so it was also really crushing in that way. I was just like, I thought that we, like, so real past this.

Andrew Fish [02:10:54] And so I wrote another. Another long email and, you know, just again, tried to explain, this is why I'm here. This is why I don't believe. And. And then, you know, and I'd like told, like, my mom knew I was upset and. And.

Andrew Fish [02:11:19] And so she was kind of trying to act as like a mediator. And. And at the end of that, like, he. He ended up responding, like, I get it. I'm sorry. Like, you know, we'll stop doing that. And I was like, okay, we're good. And so, year or two later, like, I think it was around the springtime I got, you know, I got a.

Andrew Fish [02:11:44] He sent me a talk from, I think, President Nelson that was. Didn't love it. It was like. It was a pretty shamy. It was a talk he gave, I think, the year before COVID ruined everyone's lives. And it was just kind of like, to me, it felt like it was placing a lot of pressure on parents and loved ones of, you know, of wayward children. Wayward. Yeah, wayward children. And to do something.

Andrew Fish [02:12:20] And so I ended up writing like, a kind of a paragraph by paragraph response to it, in part trying to illustrate, like, why this is not helpful to send me and, like, why this is actually infuriating and, like, hurts your relationship. Yeah. And I don't know why you would send me this thinking, like, this might warm me towards the church, because it's having the opposite effect.

Andrew Fish [02:12:46] But the. But I ended up not. Like, by the time I finished it, like, some of my ire had passed and I just was like, I'm not gonna send that. And so went on from there. But so I do.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:05] So there are these blips. That's what I'm hearing a little bit. Right. As you kind of go along and along and along. And then there's like a blip with an article, or. Is that what you're saying?

Andrew Fish [02:13:14] Yeah, yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. And I do need to backtrack a Tiny bit, because there was something I left out that's important before this. But so in 2015, when the church released the. Or I guess rolled out the policy that said that the children of gay couples no longer could. Could get baptized.

The November Policy and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:13:48] The November exclusion policy.

Andrew Fish [02:13:49] Yeah, that kind of just flipped. Flipped another rage switch for me and

John Dehlin [02:13:58] it was 2019 for those who.

Andrew Fish [02:14:00] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 29. Okay. So this is actually.

John Dehlin [02:14:02] This is the Same November of 2019.

Andrew Fish [02:14:05] Okay. No, yeah. Oh, yeah. In my brain it was 15.

John Dehlin [02:14:08] 15 was.

Andrew Fish [02:14:10] What was 15.

John Dehlin [02:14:10] Sorry, sorry. 15 was the policy.

Andrew Fish [02:14:13] Oh, 19. They reversed it.

John Dehlin [02:14:14] Reversal of the policy. Oh, sorry.

Andrew Fish [02:14:16] No, no, that's. That's. That's good to get my timeline straight. So. But yeah, I, like, I was so, so angry. Angry about that because, like, by this point, you know, I was long past the, you know, my homophobic roots and just very much saw myself as like a staunch ally to the LGBTQ community. Lots of friends, part of the community. And so I was pretty enraged that, like, you know, I don't care about people being in the church. Like, if people want to be or don't want to be, that's fine to me. But like, it just felt so horrendously cruel to, you know, I mean, both the children and the parents.

Andrew Fish [02:15:05] And just the fact that it wasn't even just saying like, oh, they can't. They shouldn't be baptized, but it was like, unless you denounce your parents relationship, like, you can't be baptized. And like that just felt. Yeah, it was violent. It felt monstrous. Yes.

Andrew Fish [02:15:24] So I. One night I was out drinking with some friends and just bar hopping and we ended up at beer bar and there was a table that was like, hey, you know, resign. We're signing up people to resign for the church. If you want, just put your name and number down. And I was like, absolutely. And I just like carved my name into it and then kind of totally forgot about it for a few weeks. And.

Andrew Fish [02:15:52] And then I get this, you know, I get this letter in the mail from Tim and I remember, like, when I got it, I was like, oh, shit. Like, did that work? And. And because it like suddenly came back to me what I. What I'd done a couple weeks previously and so opened it up and, you know, sure enough, like, there was. It was. I mean, and felt like such a bizarrely anticlimactic moment for something that was

Margi Dehlin [02:16:29] like, you know, has eternal ramifications. Right?

Andrew Fish [02:16:34] Yeah, I mean, it's. It was. It was this thing that was like, I mean, next to like, murdering A human. Like, this was the worst thing that, that you could do would be to like, renounce your membership to the church. And, you know, for.

Andrew Fish [02:16:55] I had like, literally forsaken my birthright. I'd canceled every ordinance, and all I got was this like, bland letter saying, like, brother Fish, like, per your request, your name has been, you know, and records have been removed from the church. If you ever want to undo that, your local bishop will help you.

Andrew Fish [02:17:14] Good luck. And I remember just like kind of sitting there in silence, feeling like, oh, that's it. Okay. And, you know, I didn't have this like, crushing sense of like, you know, like, the world is ending and I've made like the most eternally consequential choice ever. It was just like, oh, it's. I guess they just undid my name. So later. Later that. Do you know, do you either know when tithing settlement occurs?

John Dehlin [02:17:53] End of the year, November, December.

Andrew Fish [02:17:55] Okay. So, yeah, that.

John Dehlin [02:17:57] And it's worth noting that when you show up for tithing settlement as an adult, it's this paper that says how much money you've given the church in the year. And the bishop asks you, is this a full tithe? Meaning did you pay a full 10% of your annual income to the church? And inexplicably, the church has always included the names of the children of record on the tithing settlement slip. So it's this weird way that if a child, an adult child resigns from the church, the faithful parents are notified because all of a sudden one of their children isn't listed on their tithing settlement slip. And I don't know if that's intentional or not, but that's the effect it

Margi Dehlin [02:18:45] leads to, like an element of like,

John Dehlin [02:18:47] surveillance and of a lack of privacy.

Andrew Fish [02:18:50] And lack of privacy, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] Because some people just want to resign, but want to do it privately. They resign because they don't want either their name associated with the church or they don't want the church bothering them by sending people to bug them. But they don't necessarily want their parents to know because it might break their parents heart. But turns out there's no privacy in the Mormon Church in that way. Yeah.

Andrew Fish [02:19:09] Which this was news to me.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] Ouch.

Andrew Fish [02:19:13] Yeah, I mean, I, I 100% assumed that, like, they'll know about it if I tell them or I. I don't know. I guess, like if. Yeah, I assume maybe there's like a way that if they, if they had a, you know, a suspicion that maybe had done that, that they could call and ask and figure it Out. But I just assume that they wouldn't. Wouldn't know, much less that they would know, you know, within like. Like a week or two.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:40] Does that surprise you, John, that they knew it that quickly?

John Dehlin [02:19:44] No, that's the way the church works. I think they keep it there to make people not want to resign.

Andrew Fish [02:19:52] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that makes sense to me now that. Because had I known that, I don't. I don't think that I would have. Which I'll get into that in a little bit. But. So I'd gone. Gone home for Christmas, and there at some point I was talking to my brother and he told me, like, oh, by the way, mom and dad know that you had your name removed. And I was like, oh, okay.

Andrew Fish [02:20:29] How did they. Like, why do they know that? And he's like, they found out a tithing settlement. And. And I, you know, pretty immediately had this just kind of like, deep feeling of shame in that moment. And I was just like, well, how'd they take it? And, you know, he was like, oh, they're pretty sad, but, you know, and so I just felt pretty terrible.

Andrew Fish [02:21:00] And I think, I believe it was that same Christmas that my mother gave us, each of the kids, like, these kind of big binders with lots of our important growing up papers, had our, you know, like, mine had stuff related to my adoption. I think all the original letters that, you know, my bio parents had given me, you know, but in it also was, I think included the certificate of my ceiling.

Andrew Fish [02:21:34] And I remember in that moment when I saw that I just. I sat there and just was so full of shame. Like, I don't. I don't know that I've. I've felt that same level of shame and I just.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] Cause.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:54] Why?

John Dehlin [02:21:54] Why?

Andrew Fish [02:21:55] Well, so all I could picture in that moment was I was just imagining, like, this scene where, like, my parents are, you know, like, they're dressed in white, they're carrying little me into the temple. They're, you know, they put me on some sort of altar and then. And then they have me sealed to them and just knowing, like, everything that I knew about my story and how I came to be with them, how desperately they wanted a family and wanted me.

Andrew Fish [02:22:37] And they had this, like, beautiful memory of. Of taking me and sealing me to them after, after, you know, this, like, long road and just feeling like I had completely shattered that. That memory for them and. And probably turned it into something deeply, deeply painful.

Andrew Fish [02:23:02] And I remember just like, I just lay in my bed and with my partner and I just sobbed and sobbed and Any time after that, for quite some time, like, anytime I would think about having left the church like that, I can't call it a memory because it wasn't a memory, because it was an infant and didn't remember that. But that kind of vision, that scene would just pop into my head and it would just feel like the most inconsiderate piece of shit. And honestly, like, I think

John Dehlin [02:23:47] of all.

Andrew Fish [02:23:48] Of all of the things, like, related to leaving the church, I think that's probably my biggest regret because so many times I've just felt like you, like, who cares if your stupid name is on the rolls? Like, why did you have to be this, like, petty, drunken. That, like, you know, wanted to prove some kind of a point? And, you know, at what. At what cost did you prove that point? And that cost wasn't worth it. That. That's. I mean, that's working through that shame and working on that memory is like, that's. That's what I. That's like, that's what I had to do. Like, that. That was like the most therapeutic work that I needed to do related to any of this was just working through, like, working through the shame of that. Of that memory, which. Which I was able to do, which is good.

John Dehlin [02:24:58] So

Andrew Fish [02:25:02] I guess I think it was the. I think the following Christmas. So my then partner, now, now wife, she'd been wanting us to do 23andMe for a while just to like, figure out, you know, like, what terrible cancers await us and like, just to get a sense of, you know, like, are there health things that we need to worry about? And.

Andrew Fish [02:25:39] And so my mother. So that's what, like, my mom always asks, like, what do you guys want for Christmas? And. And since we didn't probably need another instant pot, she got us the. She got us the 23andMe. And as part of this, I remember thinking, like.

Andrew Fish [02:26:02] And I think actually now that I think about it, my. A few times my mom, you know, in years previous to this had been like, you should like, try, you know, do 23 and me your ancestry.com or something, because, like, maybe that's a way to find, like, find your birth mom because.

Andrew Fish [02:26:21] Oh, can I backtrack a tiny bit? So in. I think it was probably around, like 2014, I thought I found my bio dad. So I'd like, my mom had been in Relief Society telling, Telling my story, and a woman in her ward had gone up to her after and just been like, hey, I think, like, I think I know who that professor was, because I was. I think I was his ta. Like, I was a TA for a guy. It was right about that same time, and. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, like, I remember there. It seemed like there was some kind of controversy, and then he was just gone, like, the next year.

Searching for and Finding His Biological Father

Andrew Fish [02:27:08] And so I was like, all right, yeah, that's probably Papa. And so my mom was able to get the name from him. And so I looked up. So I ended up doing some, like, Google searching for him, and turned, like, I found this. I found a picture and this, like, real estate profile in, like, Colorado Springs, I think.

Andrew Fish [02:27:33] And the picture. Like, when I saw the picture, I was like, that has to be. Like, that has to be my dad, because he looks like what I think I would look like when I'm, like, 50, 55. It just felt like we have the same eyes, nose. Like, this region seems the same, except for he had a cowboy hat on. But I was like, but that would be me with a cowboy hat when I'm 50.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:59] And was it the same person?

Andrew Fish [02:28:03] It was a different person. From yearbook guy.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:05] From yearbook guy. Okay. All right.

Andrew Fish [02:28:07] And so in this profile, it said, like, I'm a former college music professor turned. Turned real estate agent. And then when I, like, looked up, he was. He was in, like, records had him in cedar City in 1982. And so I was like, if it's not him, like, this is the most absurd coincidence. And so, like, I crafted a very careful email and was just like,

Margi Dehlin [02:28:39] hey,

Andrew Fish [02:28:40] first of all, I want to preface this by saying, like, I'm not looking. I'm not after anything. I'm not looking for anything. I'm just curious, but did you by chance happen to place a kid for adoption, like, 34 years ago or whatever it was in Cedar City? And here's why. I think, like, you were him. The literal only reason why I want to. Because I just want to figure out who she is. And, you know, if you don't, like, if that's all I could get from you, like, you just give me a name. I'm satisfied. I don't need anything else. I'm not looking for a dad.

Andrew Fish [02:29:17] Like, not looking for family. I just want to try to find her. And he responded. He responded was like, hi, thanks for reaching out. Not who you. Not who you think I am. I'm actually, like, I've been a Christ follower my whole life, and I was married at the time and would not have done what you say, but it her. Like, I was brought in to replace, like, you know, the predecessor who seemed, like, had some kind of scandal happen and so sorry. Good luck. And I. I 100% thought he was lying. I was like, oh. I was like, no, he's for sure my dad.

Andrew Fish [02:29:58] Like, there's no. The coincidences are too wild. And, and so. So yeah, got. Got denied there. Felt a little sad about that, but I was like, oh, shit. Like, there goes my one chance to possibly find her. So anyways, back to spitting in a tube. So my mom got us ancestry.com for Christmas, spat in the tube, sent it away, and then like six weeks later get the results and just had like a ton of matches. And so I looked at some of the ones that were like the highest matches. And from what I just. Based upon what I'd read, I assumed that they were like, probably cousins.

Andrew Fish [02:30:51] And so wrote them an email and was just like, hey, I know this might be weird, but did by chance you have an aunt that maybe like 36.5 ish years ago happen to place a baby for adoption? Would be neat to know. Thanks.

Andrew Fish [02:31:14] And. And I also, I, you know, I tried to also be like, I'm not, you know, I don't want anything that, like, I don't want to make anything weird for anybody. And I'm not, you know, trying to, like, I don't want to cause her any problems if. Because, like, I didn't know who even knew about any of this, you know, But I assumed that, like, it wasn't like a huge complete secret, but I don't know, who knows? But so I tried to be like, really sensitive in how I asked. And then not long after sending that, I looked a little. I read a little bit more about what the results looked like and realized, like, oh, that's actually probably an aunt and an uncle that I sent that to.

Andrew Fish [02:31:57] Not. Not a. Not a. Not a cousin. And sure enough, like, I think maybe within a day, Day or two, I got an email back from. From one of the. Or from the. The one of the women that I'd sent it to. And she just said, hi, Andrew, I'm your aunt. Your mother is my oldest sister.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:18] Wow.

Andrew Fish [02:32:20] And just like that, I was no longer biologically untethered to this world.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:27] Amazing. That is amazing.

Andrew Fish [02:32:30] Yeah. It was just such a surreal moment because, I mean, just days before, you know, I mean, weeks before, I had been in, like, fully in the camp of, like, never gonna get to figure out who she is.

Andrew Fish [02:32:45] And. And then suddenly, like, I found her sister. And so finding, you know, having that avenue was kind of a really cool relief. But then it also came with, like, just a really intense Pang of fear because, you know, for so much of my life I was adopted quite possibly because my mother needed to be brought back to the church. And so what if, what if that worked and like, what if she was like, what if she was an active member and then, you know, and Waltz's 36 year old name removed from the records me.

Andrew Fish [02:33:39] And does she then regret placing me? Does she, does she, you know, does she judge my parents? And so I was, I was, that was. I think my biggest fear is, you know, I just didn't know what to expect. And you know, in looking at like, as I was getting some of these, you know, these matches, I did some like Facebook stalking and looked real clear that they were, you know, probably Mormons. And so, you know, it seemed like at least her family is, you know, still Mormons. And so after, after my aunt responded, I kind of reached out to her and I was like, so my biggest fear is, you know, I just kind of expressed what I was, what I was worried about and, and told her like, I just, I don't, I don't want her, if she is still a member, to think that like, that my parents did anything wrong, that like, That it had anything to do with them.

Andrew Fish [02:34:51] Like I was raised in like the Mormon ad poster family and like they did everything right. And you know, this was, this was an inevitability that I was going to get to regardless of who raised me. And so her, you know, when she responded back, she was like, fear not.

Andrew Fish [02:35:21] Your mom is basically like you are. She's, you know, she's the oldest and she's the only one of our siblings who is not part of the church. And so fear not. And I think that was like one of the great, just one of the most significant reliefs of my life was just knowing that like I wasn't gonna disappoint one more person and, and hurt another person and, and that like, I don't know, maybe, maybe there is, you know, like the apple didn't fall far from the tree. Like if she's the oldest sibling and she's the only one that left and so am I. Like, I guess it was a biological inevitability.

John Dehlin [02:36:10] It could be validating.

Andrew Fish [02:36:12] It was incredibly validating. Yeah, it was very, very validating. So I, you know, with my fear assuaged, I decided to, you know, try to craft the email that if I had placed a human for adoption and discovered their existence for the first time 36 and a half years later, that, that maybe like I would want to get.

Reconnecting with His Birth Mother

Andrew Fish [02:36:43] And if it's okay. I'd like to share a little bit of what I. What I wrote to her in that first email. So the, the subject line was just hi, birth mom, question mark with in parenth with birth in parentheses.

Andrew Fish [02:37:04] So I said, I guess maybe I'll approach this from the mindset of if I had birthed a human 36 years ago and never had a clue what became of it thereafter, what would I want to know? And I then went on to just explain how incredibly lucky I felt and kind of just gave a brief history of just what had happened after they adopted me. But I said they in referring to my parents. They talked about you a lot. I never remember a specific moment in which I learned that I was adopted. I just always knew they treated my adoption like it was something special, like a miracle.

Andrew Fish [02:37:41] In fact, as three and a half years later, my mother's womb apparently reversed its barren disposition where my dad's swimmers got better at swimming and they popped out three natural kiddos within about a five year span, nothing changed about how my parents treated me. Me and to my siblings, I may as well have slid from my mother's womb the same as they. All in all, every one of them really nailed the whole how to have an adopted child SL sibling and not mentally and emotionally ruin them.

Andrew Fish [02:38:10] And then I went on to say, I guess, I guess maybe the greatest gift I can give you is the comfort and surety that is the comfort and surety that you did the right thing. I was cared for, loved, and much of the good in me I owe to the examples of my parents.

Andrew Fish [02:38:33] I also don't know that you could ever quite comprehend the gratitude that my parents have for you and what you gave to them. They've always honored you and did their best and did their best to do right by your priceless gift.

John Dehlin [02:38:52] So

Andrew Fish [02:38:54] I then explained how I'd left the church, how I told my parents and my eventual fear and reaching out to her that she was still Mormon and that what that might mean for her, discovering that I wasn't. And then told her a bit about myself and my partner, my dog, children, my career path, my love of the outdoors, cooking, traveling, just other essential pieces of who I am, but that more or less, I overall enjoyed a happy and lovely life.

Andrew Fish [02:39:27] And then before, before asking some questions of my own, I wrapped up by saying, I hope all this wasn't terribly overwhelming, especially since I decided to just be pretty candid and avoid sounding like or presenting myself in a way that I'm not. Also, obviously this is a New situation for me as I've never previously contacted a birth mother for the first time time. So I don't exactly know what the protocol is.

Andrew Fish [02:39:50] So we then, we then communicated back and forth and just kind of sharing some of the different, different details of our lives. I also, you know, was able to connect her with my mother and, and so they, they corresponded a little bit and if it's okay, I'd like to share a couple of snippets of what they, of what they said. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:40:19] So

Andrew Fish [02:40:21] this was, this was from my bio mom to my mother. She said, so this is the second letter I've written you. So this is the second letter I've written you. And I wish it had not have. It had not have had to been 36 years between the two.

Andrew Fish [02:40:48] But thanks to DNA technology that regular folks have access to, we will finally get the opportunity to meet. Something I truly thought would never happen. I want to thank you and Wayne. My dad's name is Wayne. My mother's name is Debbie.

Andrew Fish [02:41:06] I want to thank you and Wayne, very strangely the first name of Andrew's half brother's father, for turning out to have been even beyond the people I had hoped for to raise Andrew. His strong character comes from who you both are, clearly people with the depth of character that helped him to be that amazing and wonderful person that he is.

Andrew Fish [02:41:29] My only regret is that I did not know all these years what a beautiful life he was blessed with because, because of you. I look forward to sitting in the same room and hearing more of his life and the, and the lives of those most dear to him.

Andrew Fish [02:41:45] And then she shared some logistics about, you know, when, when they would be able to possibly meet. And then she said, please, please let me know what your thoughts are. I look forward to a very special and unique meeting and giving you the long hug I've been saving. I look forward to giving you the long hug I've been saving for,

John Dehlin [02:42:19] For

Andrew Fish [02:42:20] our boy's cherished mother.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:32] I love that.

Andrew Fish [02:42:33] Yeah. So my mother's, my mother's response. She said, I've thought of you countless times, especially on his birthdays, wishing that I had a way to communicate with you to let you know how he was doing and what a great boy slash young man he was growing into. Several years ago, I think it was while he was getting close to the end of his mission. I suggested to him that he might want to investigate an adoption registry I had heard about to see if he could make a connection with you that way. But I guess life got in the way. And he never pursued it. I was hopeful that the DNA kit we got for him for Christmas might help.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:21] Help.

Andrew Fish [02:43:21] Help him find you. I was thrilled when he told me it did. He shared, he shared with us your emails to him. And when I read that, that you said you weren't able to even hold him after his birth, I just. It just broke my heart. I can't imagine, I can't imagine all you went through placing him for adoption. But we are all eternally grateful for your decision to do so. I so look forward to meeting you and giving you the long, Giving you the long hug that I've been saving for the woman that started our family. Sorry, Any questions?

Margi Dehlin [02:44:24] Goodness. Goodness.

Andrew Fish [02:44:28] It's a lot. So it was about, it was about a month after, you know, after we, after first reaching out that I got to meet her. And so, I mean, one of the really cool things about, you know, about her and about the whole process was she was so gracious and concerned about me and how any of this would feel for me. And so, you know, when we, when we talked about meeting, she wanted to do it on my terms. And so I suggested, you know, I invited her over for dinner. I was like, you know, I'll cook for you if you want to, if you're open to coming here.

Andrew Fish [02:45:30] And so, you know, with a very familiar punctuality, she arrived three minutes early and knocked on the door. And so when she came in, luckily, like, I have two dogs who are, who are kind of assholes and like they were just very, very, very, very nosy and just kind of all up in her business. And so it kind of like almost created just, I don't know, like a moment of, I guess rather than just like opening the door and having an intense. And there she is and having this like, intense moment of like, okay, guess we do this.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:18] It's like distraction a little bit or.

Andrew Fish [02:46:20] Yeah, it created like some distraction, a little bit of levity. And then, and then once the dogs chilled out, gave each other, gave each other a hug and it's a really strange thing to. It's really bizarre to be a 36 year old human and hug the person that gave birth to you for the first time. And you know, to stand there and what would like for most people feel like an overly like long time to hug, especially for the first time, but to, to have it feel like the most, like the most natural thing in

John Dehlin [02:47:20] the world,

Andrew Fish [02:47:27] You know, just, just months before this, like we both, you know, kind of believed that it, it was something that would never like it would never happen. And then, you know, all of a sudden, like, there we were, sharing.

Andrew Fish [02:47:43] Sharing the hug that, you know, she's. I think she's long deserved for. For 36 years. So then we spent the next, you know, the next, like, three or four hours just kind of sharing pieces of our lives. You know, we both. Both share an irrational fear of bugs.

Andrew Fish [02:48:09] Both have experienced a lot of heartache over. Over the way that religious institutions and our own religious institution treated. Treated LGBTQ people. And for both of us, that was something that ended up torpedoing our faith. Like, we're both really methodical decision makers and often about really stupid things like meals.

Andrew Fish [02:48:39] Both of us tend to ask really just exhaustive questions of our servers and just want to feel really settled and comfortable that we've chosen the right meal, you know, she was an English teacher turned school psychologist, and I was a school social studies teacher turned therapist, I guess. Right as I was meeting her, I had signed up for therapy school.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:09] Okay.

Andrew Fish [02:49:11] But, like, the way that we, you know, graded papers and essays was, like, both with, like, kind of the same meticulous. Meticulous nature. Got kind of exhausted and burned out by the same types of things, you know, in. In the education world. And, you know, I have both her extreme wordiness when it comes to writing and her eyes.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:39] Hmm. I'm hearing, like, not just parallels, but, like, a sense of recognition. You recognize yourself in her?

Andrew Fish [02:49:52] Yeah. I mean, so much of. So much of what. What I kind of was able to discover about her just helped me make sense of me. It. You know, it kind of. It felt like it validated and answered some of those questions of, like, especially that came up for me in my later years, like, why did my apple fall a little bit further from the tree than, like, you know, my siblings apples when we were all raised by the same tree and apparently, like, foreordained to be together.

Andrew Fish [02:50:32] But yeah, just. I mean, especially the fact that, you know, she also was not, you know, not a member of the church, didn't believe in the church. I mean, I think she's still on record, but. And that, you know, was basically her only sibling to land there. That just. That also felt very, very validating and did a lot to, I think, relieve some of the guilt and shame that I've felt around that.

Andrew Fish [02:51:06] So one moment during our conversation that really struck me was, you know, it was just in. I don't even remember what she was talking about, but at some point she just said, when I gave the birth to you.

Andrew Fish [02:51:25] And then she. And then she Kind of, like, trailed off and paused and was just like, well, that's. That's a sentence that I've never gotten to say to you or with. With you in the room. And at the same time, like, I. It occurred to me in that moment that, like, I'd never heard anyone say that either. Like, if, you know, I mean, I think it's.

Andrew Fish [02:51:50] It seems like such a thing that people sort of take for granted that, like, you know, I mean, assuming that, like, they're living with their biological parents that, you know, their mom be like, yeah, like, when I gave birth to you, or, like, your birth was really hard, you know, whatever person might say, but just realizing, like, oh, that's a completely novel thing for me was just kind of a cool. Kind of a cool moment.

Andrew Fish [02:52:21] But so she. Yeah, she was there about 4.5 hours, and so she has a. She has a partner that she's been with for quite a few years, and he's. He's really wonderful, and he basically, like, parked nearby for the entire, like, four and a half hours.

Andrew Fish [02:52:41] You know, initially, I think she'd. I think she'd asked him if he wanted to be a part of it, and he'd just declined. So I don't. I don't want to, like, impact your dynamic. I want, like, this is your. You know, this is your moment. And I don't want, like. Because he's. He's also, like, a very, like, gregarious and talkative person. He's like. I don't want to take anything away from that, but just the fact that, you know, he basically sat out there the entire time in case.

Andrew Fish [02:53:12] In case it was awkward or in case we were mean. She said. She said. And I. I just. I immediately loved him. Loved him for that.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:21] Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Fish [02:53:25] So. One of. I guess one of the things that was also kind of strange about. About the whole experience was I never. I never considered how my half siblings had been impacted. Impacted by it. And, you know, one of the kind of heartbreaking pieces to the story that I eventually learned was how, you know, like, heartbroken these two little boys had been when, like, their mom gave away their. Their baby brother. And.

Reunion, Marriage, and New Beginnings

Andrew Fish [02:54:15] And I guess, like, I just think there's so many aspects to any adoption story that you don't think about or you wouldn't imagine until, you know, until they're made. Until they're made clear. But one of. So at the. You know, as our first night ended, we embraced for the second time, and.

Andrew Fish [02:54:46] She said, thank you for finding me. And I said, thank you for literally everything. Thank you for giving me a wonderful life. And that's. And that's genuinely how I feel about it. Like, I'm so, so simultaneously lucky to have, you know, to have been created by this person.

Andrew Fish [02:55:23] And so incredibly lucky, too, that she had the strength to give me away. And then so incredibly lucky that she gave me to the parents that she gave me to. I mean, I know she didn't, like, handpick them, but.

Andrew Fish [02:55:40] And, you know, my mom would believe that the Lord handpicked them, and I love that she believes that. I don't know. I don't know what I believe. I just know that I think I ended up where I was supposed to be.

Andrew Fish [02:55:58] And it seems like I got there in the way that I was supposed to get there. So maybe, I guess everything kind of felt like it came full circle at our wedding last June. So my partner and I got married. We got married in Boulder, Utah. It's one of our favorite kind of desert spaces. And I got to invite. You know, I invited both my bio mom and my parents and my siblings and kept it really small. No children were allowed.

Andrew Fish [02:56:41] But that was the first time that my parents met her and also met all of my partner's parents, which she has a lot of parents. So it was kind of this just big, wild moment where so many stories just kind of converged and came together. But.

Andrew Fish [02:57:08] I wish I remembered and knew and was able to pay a whole lot of attention to when my mom and she first met. It was kind of like the first night when everybody was arriving, and so it was a little bit hectic. But I remember they hugged, and then they kind of sat down and talked with one another and seemed like they had a nice time.

Andrew Fish [02:57:35] But so the. When, like, the day that we actually got married, that evening, we had a. You know, we had a dinner and invited, you know, a handful of people to give toasts. And so I got to. I got to hear toasts from both my mom and my bio mom. And it just felt like kind of the most incredible turn of events that I don't think I could have ever imagined, just getting to have both of these incredible women speak at my wedding. In fact, like, when I.

Andrew Fish [02:58:20] So we got married out on this kind of, like, this point that had this, like, big vista. It was out, like, far in the desert on this dirt road. And so we kind of made this, like, little, like, makeshift aisle sort of, and mostly people were just standing on either side. But so I got to have, like, both of my moms, like, walk me down the aisle, which just felt like such a beautiful, beautiful moment.

John Dehlin [02:58:47] But.

Andrew Fish [02:58:50] But, yeah, just having, you know, having both of them walk me down the aisle and getting to hear both of them speak at my wedding and knowing that there was no jealousy or insecurity experienced by either of them, that they both just, you know, they both just loved me and they loved us, and I don't know, it was just something that I never could have imagined. And I guess the other piece, too, is.

Andrew Fish [02:59:28] And I guess maybe it kind of wraps up part of my father's and my storyline or story arc, I guess. So after. So after the last time that I sent one more scathing email about, you've got to stop bringing these things up again, I thought we were in a good place, But he ended up. So they went on a mission right as Covid was starting, and he'd given me a thumb drive with, like, a video on it. And it was kind of like we had, like, a last supper at Rhodesio Grill, which is nice. Very quintessentially Mormon, I think. And lots of meat. Yeah, lots of meat.

Andrew Fish [03:00:31] And when he gave it to me, I. I was. I just kind of had this, like, sinking feeling that maybe. I don't know, I was just worried about what was on it. And it was kind of a. Just wanted to challenge me to read the Book of Mormon and try to approach it with an open mind. And so it was pretty hurtful in that moment, just because I'd really. I mean, I 100% thought, like, we were past this, we were done with it. And so it was at that moment that I kind of. I resurrected the email that I'd written about the Elder Nelson article that he'd sent me the spring previous and then just kind of really said everything that was on my mind about the church.

Andrew Fish [03:01:19] And, I mean, in the past, I'd kind of refrained from attacking much, but at this point, I was like, I have to, like, he has to understand why there is zero chance that I'm coming back. And so, you know, I picked apart every, like, everything about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the historicity, like, all of those things. And.

Andrew Fish [03:01:39] And, you know, I was like, you are more likely, like, the probability of you becoming, like, a Bernie bro is more likely than me coming back to the church. And, like, my dad's very, very, like, conservative, and he's like, so there's a chance.

Andrew Fish [03:01:57] Well, that was the one thing that I knew he would. He'd be like, oh, yeah, because, I mean, you know, he see Bernie Bro as Like a full on, like, socialist or communist. And that's, like the furthest thing you could ever be. So I was like, that is what. You know, that is what he will get. And at that point, I'd kind of also set a boundary. Like, I was like, look, this can't keep happening because it just rips open such a painful wound every time. And so we can either have, like, a loving relationship with the time that we have here on this earth, and you can stop doing that, or, like, we're not gonna have that kind of a relationship, because I can't keep experiencing this and feeling this.

Andrew Fish [03:02:45] And it was then that I think he fully understood and something that. It also kind of helped. I think it was right around that time. Are y' all familiar with StoryCorps? So I got the idea that I wanted to do a StoryCorps interview with him, and so I kind of geared it around what my. Like, what me leaving the church was like for him and, like, what his experience was around that. Which.

John Dehlin [03:03:17] That's nice.

Andrew Fish [03:03:18] Yeah. I mean, I felt like I, you know, had that sense of what that meant, but what I. And it ended up being a really beautiful experience. And, you know, we both, I think both shed a lot of tears. But what I came away from that understanding was that for him, it really was about. It was just fear. He was so afraid that, like, I was lost and am lost, and I'm the only one of my siblings who was lost to him forever.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:54] That. What.

Andrew Fish [03:03:56] What else? You know, what else? What else could he do?

John Dehlin [03:04:00] It's a unfortunate false scarcity model that Mormonism creates. Because you talk to other Christians, they're like, of course we're all together in heaven. Right. Mormonism's like, you can be together forever with your family if all of you are faithful Mormons. So he's been conditioned with a false scarcity model, basically. Right.

Andrew Fish [03:04:22] And that's. And that really, actually softened a lot of my, like, hurt and kind of anger at those moments when he. When he would reach out, because I realized, like, he just.

John Dehlin [03:04:37] Worldview.

Andrew Fish [03:04:38] Yeah. It's. It's not. If anything, that just shifted some of that anger at the institution that. That taught him that and that. That creates that. That unnecessary pain that I know that he feels.

John Dehlin [03:04:53] But he's just being logically consistent, right?

Andrew Fish [03:04:56] Yeah. I mean, he's nothing if not incredibly consistent in his, you know, like, his beliefs and his approach. Approach to the church.

John Dehlin [03:05:05] Why wouldn't he try everything?

Andrew Fish [03:05:07] Right. Right. Forever. Yeah. And I think it was only once, you know, I really really made clear that, like, what you were asking me to do is impossible. Because I think, like, that's one of the hard things about the church is that, you know, there's no such thing as is impossible. You know, like, there's, like, there is some, like, right thing you can say or just right way you can testify that will, like, you know, pierce the veil of darkness or this, you know, pry the scales for my eyes, like, whatever it is.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:47] And it's your responsibility as a parent to do it. It's on you. That's part of the conditioning.

Andrew Fish [03:05:54] Yeah. And so, yeah, and my hope was. I mean, I think what ultimately happened was by making it 100% clear that there's no chance that I hope that that alleviated him from that, but which

Margi Dehlin [03:06:10] I love that you did that for you.

John Dehlin [03:06:12] Healthy boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:13] Because I think it's both. You can acknowledge and understand where your parent is coming from and also be able to advocate for what you need or what type of relationship you're going to want that's good for your mental health. Like.

Andrew Fish [03:06:28] Yeah, well, and I. Yeah, it was. And I mean, since, you know, since kind of that point, like, our relationship has been really wonderful. And, you know, he. Like, we do have a very loving relationship. And I don't feel like. I don't feel judged. I don't feel. I don't feel afraid of spending time alone with him think, you know, worrying that he's gonna bring up something that I've set boundaries around. And, you know, the. I mean, kind of the part of the culminating moment of that for me was. Was at our wedding when. I mean, that was the kind of the first time that I, you know, was my full kind of unfiltered self. Like, I. And I. And I felt comfortable being that. Like, I wasn't, you know, I felt like I. Yeah. I didn't feel like I had to try to tone myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:32] Filter yourself.

Andrew Fish [03:07:33] Yeah, filter. Tone myself down. And, you know, I remember when we were standing there getting married and, you know, just a handful of times, like, I, you know, I looked at my parents and just being able to see, like, happiness and joy on their faces in a situation that, like, I grew up most of my life seeing as having, like, at the very least, like, a serious undertone of sadness, too, because, like, I remember growing up, like, hearing my parents say things like, you know, like, there's just something that's, like, a little bit sad about, like, going to, you know, a wedding at, like, a church or just somewhere else, because it's, you know, you Just know that, like, they're not together forever, and it's. You know.

John Dehlin [03:08:26] Although she wasn't married in a temple, right? Well, at first.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:29] Well, at first she was, but. Yeah.

Andrew Fish [03:08:31] But, yeah, like the. And so I've just, you know, that was always something that felt sad about my future prospect at some point, like, if I ever did get married, that, like, you know, could my parents feel joy there? Because it's not, you know, it's not a temple marriage, and that wasn't that. And there wasn't a single moment throughout that that I felt any kind of, like, an undercurrent of, like, sadness or disappointment. Like, they just seemed genuinely joyful for me and for Sam and, you know, both. All of that was an experience I never fathomed that I would get to have with my parents.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:25] So life surprised you in a good way.

Andrew Fish [03:09:27] I mean, life delighted me in such. Yeah, yeah. I could never have fathomed, you know, six, seven years ago having the wedding that I had with my. With my parents there and my father in particular and not having a single worry about, like, is he uncomfortable? Is he upset? Is he disappointed? But just. Just feeling loved. Loved by them.

Andrew Fish [03:09:59] And maybe that's. That's part of, like, the overarching message, like, I hope that anybody that listens to this gets. Is if, you know, if. If you are questioning your faith or if you. If you have left and you are going through that.

Andrew Fish [03:10:20] That fear and that sadness around, like, you know, like, will my parents ever come around? Maybe they won't. But even if it feels like it's impossible, like, you can't fathom that they. That they will understand or that you can get to that place, you might. You might be able to get there. It's not. It's not hopeless. It's no guarantee. But again, I never. I never would have would have fathomed my parents. My parents getting to kind of where. Where they are.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:05] We're so happy for you.

John Dehlin [03:11:06] It is a cool story.

Andrew Fish [03:11:08] Thank you. I guess to maybe kind of wrap up while, you know, while the church gave me a lot of. Gave me a lot of pain and, you know, I've. It's. It's caused a lot of what feels like very unnecessary anguish in my life.

Andrew Fish [03:11:36] It also. It also gave me the family that I have. You know, if my. If my bio mom hadn't made the decision that she made. I mean, she made the decision she did because of the church, because she believed that she was prompted to do that. And, you know, my parents adopted through the church. They were Trying to have a forever family. And, you know, so because of that, I've gotten to have the life that I have.

Andrew Fish [03:12:11] And it's funny, when I, if, like, if I look at my patriarchal blessing now, I can actually see things that. That are true in it. One of the things that it says is said, is, Brother Fish, may you always choose the right, and may you stand tall for that which you know is right and good. You are blessed, Brother Fish, with the gift of righteous judgment. You have the gift of judgment to know right from wrong and good from evil. Evil and, you know, speaking up for the things that matter to me for what I believe is true has always been a value of mine.

Andrew Fish [03:12:50] And, you know, based on, like, once the church no longer felt right and good to me, I couldn't do any other thing but follow that truth wherever it went. And so, in kind of a weird, paradoxical way, like, my patriarchal blessing almost predicted the fact that eventually, like, I would have. I would have to leave.

Andrew Fish [03:13:16] But maybe funniest of all is, you know, it wasn't until. Until I'd left the church and kind of left behind, like, all of the different, you know, arbitrary metrics for what, you know, what it means to be good or for someone to be born of goodly parents that, like, that the goodly parents line no longer, like, no longer bothered me from that. And, you know, being conceived out of wedlock under the conditions that I was, like, no longer had any bearing upon whether or not my bio parents were good people.

Andrew Fish [03:13:57] What I've come to know is that, you know, the woman who gave me up the absolute definition, an example of a goodly parent, which is also, I think, paradoxical in and of itself that, like, being the goodly parent is literally, can be literally giving up your child, But being selfless and compassionate, kind, empathetic, moral, ethical.

Andrew Fish [03:14:29] I was born of one goodly parent and then given to two other goodly parents. And now that I could be. I don't know that I could be more lucky. Jesus Christ. Amen.

Reflections on Adoption, Faith, and Identity

Margi Dehlin [03:14:46] It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:14:47] Beautiful. Any interest in a relationship with your bio dad at all or not or.

Andrew Fish [03:14:54] I mean, like, I would be interested in just knowing about him and finding, like, out what his life has been like and what, you know, what he's done with it. And, you know, I. Not in the way that I care about and have an interest in, you know, having a connection to my bio moments and if I were able to find him and he, you know, wanted to meet and, you know, have a beer, would love to do that. But I don't need. I don't need another dad. Like my dad is plenty in. In the best way. But I'll always. I'll take more moms.

John Dehlin [03:15:42] Hey, wait. No, I'm just kidding.

Andrew Fish [03:15:45] Not to rag on dads, but mom just. Mom's just, you know, there's something special about him.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:54] What a beautiful story.

Andrew Fish [03:15:55] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:56] You did it, Andrew. You just laid it bare today.

Andrew Fish [03:16:03] Thanks. It was my honor to get to share it. And again, I wish that she could have been here to speak to her side

John Dehlin [03:16:15] her.

Andrew Fish [03:16:15] I mean, she's much more articulate than I am and is just such a brilliant, brilliant human being. But.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:26] Well, huge thanks to you, Andrew, for being willing to share your story. I'm sure it's going to mean a lot to a lot of people. Huge thanks to all three of your parents for the roles they played in that amazing story. And thanks to you, Margi, for being here today.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:43] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:16:44] Making these interviews better. Thanks to Kyle Ashworth for making this happen. Did you just call him Ashworth? He called you Fish. Did you call him Ashworth?

Andrew Fish [03:16:54] No, we actually called him Garlic.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:58] Oh.

Andrew Fish [03:16:59] Which it was such a stupid reason. Like there was some other kid that lived in Nephi years before him. His name was Sam Garlic. And like my friends thought he looked like that. Sam Garlic. So we all just called him Garlic.

John Dehlin [03:17:13] That's awesome.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:14] I feel like this is how nicknames sometimes.

John Dehlin [03:17:17] Yeah, I was called Potty because John was another name for a toilet. So in elementary school I was called Potty.

Andrew Fish [03:17:24] Yep, that sounds about right for elementary school.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:26] That's right.

John Dehlin [03:17:28] Anyway, thanks, Kyle. Check out Latter Gay Stories if you want. It's a great podcast. And yeah, also just thanks to Julia and Gerardo and Maven in Brooklyn and all those at the Open Stories foundation, including my board that make all this possible. Thanks to the donors that make all this possible. Again, we couldn't do it without you donors. And if you value this content and you're not a donor, but you want to see more content like this, or you're grateful for the content and want to pay it forward, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button and become a monthly donor. Then we'll keep providing this type of content to you.

John Dehlin [03:18:04] If you don't want the commercials on YouTube, just buy a YouTube premium account. 10 bucks a month, they take out the ads. And of course you can always subscribe to us on YouTube. Please. It helps with the algorithms. And you can check us out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Facebook, Instagram and TikTok as well. And yeah, and then there's a really good process now for applying to Beyond Mormon Stories. We're always looking for cool stories.

John Dehlin [03:18:35] You can go to our website@mormonstories.org and apply to be on the show and we'll review your application. We can't accept all obviously, but we'd love to if you're interested in throwing your hat in the ring, we'd love to review your application.

John Dehlin [03:18:52] We're always doing panels. We're always looking for cool stories. So check that out if you want to come on the show. Anything else, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [03:19:00] I think you nailed it.

John Dehlin [03:19:01] All right, thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Fish [03:19:03] Yeah, thanks so much.

John Dehlin [03:19:04] All right, email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have feedback or thoughts and mostly be good to each other and be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.