Introducing Alyssa Grenfell and Her Story

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1850

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John delind. I'm here with my lovely brilliant partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:09] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] There it is, January 11, 2024. It's the first long form Mormon Stories interview of the new year. So happy New Year. It's good to have you back, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] And today we are interviewing Alyssa Grenfell. We're going to be answering the question how does a super devout in it to win it orthodox return missionary, stay at home mom start to question her, her Mormon faith Temple worker. I think I got many of the checkboxes and that's going to be today's

Margi Dehlin [00:00:47] interview and then, and then write a book about it, right?

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Yeah, yeah. We're also super excited to announce today is the release of a book that Alyssa is coming out with. I had the honor of writing the forward to it. It's such a good book. I was honored to write the forward to it. The book is called how to Leave the Mormon Church An Ex Mormon's Guide to Rebuilding After Religion. This is the book that so many people have needed for so long to help them have a healthy and a peaceful or at least a minimally damaging transition out of Mormonism or high demand religion. So in the comments, in the description on YouTube and Facebook you can click or on the blog you can click on the link to this book, let's make this international bestseller.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Please pause, go buy this book and come right back. But, but I just want to make the point that even though Alyssa has an amazing TikTok channel and Instagram. No, not TikTok channel and YouTube channel that many of you have been checking out and are really valuing.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] We've heard your feedback that many of you just want normal run of the mill Mormons that we don't go for celebrities. We're lucky because we're catching Alyssa before she becomes a full on celebrity. But Alyssa, you're just a normal Mormon, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:02:04] I was a normal Mormon, yeah. Yes, I, and I think too, I think what makes maybe this book powerful is a lot of, I think it's a very, it really encapsulates what it means to leave the church for someone who just was your average run of the mill temple attending, you know, got married pretty young, going through a faith transition in their 20s and 30s type of person and that's how I was.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] I, Millennial generation, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:02:36] Yeah, I, I am a millennial, born in 92 and so I, I would say that for me, I, I wrote this And I wrote this from my experience, but also to the type of reader that is going through a faith transition who hasn't experienced, you know, many of the wild things the Mormon Church does do to people. But just an average person who, you know, read the CES letter at 2am and now is just wondering, what do I do next now that I don't have a testimony anymore.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] Yeah. Yeah. And so part one is going to be today and we're just going to do the long form, two to four hour Alyssa's story tomorrow. We're going to come back at 10am tomorrow morning and we're going to cover Alyssa's top 10 recommendations for how to leave the Mormon Church and do so in the healthiest way possible. So this will be a two parter. Thank you for joining us for part one. We're always grateful for those of you who make this possible. So, Alyssa Grenfell, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:03:42] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] Where does your Mormon story begin? Tell us about maybe your parents a little bit.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:03:46] Yeah. So I, most of my childhood was in Montana, in Helena, Montana, and one of the kind of outskirt cities, very small. And some of my earliest memories are very, just the most Mormon memories you can imagine. I remember trying on my mom's wedding dress and dreaming about my wedding, fantasizing about my wedding and having so many conversations about my wedding at 5, 6, 7 as just this dream of what I was meant to accomplish in my life. And I think I spent a lot of time in, even in church activity days doing things like I have a really distinct memory too of learning to make spaghetti while the boys were playing basketball for their activity and, and feeling so frustrated because they, they were obviously having fun and we were learning to do housekeeping and, you know, taking care of a home, which isn't the worst thing in the world.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:04:55] But when you see the gender discrepancy of the boys play games and the women learn to take care of the home, you know, even at a young age, I felt like that was unfair. And so my, my parents, you know, we were front row members of the church.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:05:13] My mom on my mom's side. We've been members since Joseph Smith. And my dad was a convert but served a mission. They were married in the temple, very, very active and devout as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] And I think, I think it's four, four total children in the birth order.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:05:31] I'm the second of all the children. Okay, so three sisters.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] Okay. So your earliest Mormon memories are of your future as a mom? Basically, yes.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:05:42] And of becoming a bride, specifically. Conversations about my wedding. I remember my mom was setting up a bank account, basically a savings account for us to be able to access once we became adults. And her asking me, do you think you're gonna. Do you wanna save this for your wedding or do you wanna save this for college, for your de. You know, if you go to school someday? And she. I remember responding, it's for my wedding. Because I. I felt like that's. That was the right answer, that already, at a really young age, it was very clear to me that the wedding was going to be like the penultimate experience of my life, was my wedding day.

Gender Roles and Growing Up Mormon

Margi Dehlin [00:06:25] Did you feel like, with regard to gender roles, that were you receiving, you know, messages in church as well as home, or when you're looking back, are you remembering more that those messages were coming from, like, family culture or what was modeled.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:06:41] Yeah, I think it was a mix of family. Well, you know, what I saw at home and what was being taught at church. I remember the Friend magazine would have the, you know, in the center, it would have the leadership of the church, whatever that was called.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] The Org Chart.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:07:01] The Org Chart, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] The Priestess.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:07:04] That was, I think, in a Friend or maybe just in, you know, one of the other magazines. And I remember just looking at it and seeing only men, you know, And I think now they'd put the women down at the bottom to the right, so at least they're on there. But then it was only the men and I, you know, what a. What a striking visual depiction for a girl who's growing up in a church to be told like, these are the people who matter.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:07:34] These are the people who we listen to and we ordain and we sustain and we, you know, we look. So I. I felt like growing up, it was really clear to me that girls were not as good as boys, but that that's what God wanted. And so I had to. I had. It was my responsibility to figure out how to bridge the discrepancy there, because it felt like if I felt like that was unfair, I was thinking God was unfair. And that's not something a young Mormon kid thinks. So I tried to cope with that in the ways that I could.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] I noticed in your outline you mentioned really liking the movie. Mulan.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:08:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Do you want to talk about juxtaposing that with your Mormon worldview as a girl?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:08:21] Yeah. I think my eye. When, as a kid, I loved running, like. And I still love running, and I always love very, you know, tomboy type things. Getting in the mud, running in the stream, you know, just. Just the types of stuff you see depicted in Mulan that she's doing and that song where, you know, we must be swift as coursing and she's like, she's beating all the boys at the end. And I remember just watching that and feeling so amped. And I went to gym, the class the next day or that week, and we had the rope and I was climbing the rope and I was the best at it in the class and I was better than the boys.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:09:02] And I just remember feeling like triumphant because I just felt like I had to prove to myself all the time that I mattered at all, that I, I could be athletic or I could be well spoken or intelligent and that, you know, I was more than just this, like, pretty girl box that Mormonism wanted to place me in, that I was like this little doll that would age and become a wife, but that I also had a personality that I could keep up or even be better sometimes than the boys. So I did always love that, that, that movie because it just inspired me to feel like, oh, I'm not the only girl that feels this way.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:09:46] And at the end, I actually recently watched it again with my sons and. And at the end where the emperor bows to her and then everyone else bows too. And it made me cry because I needed to see that as a little kid. And when in the church, do you see men bowing to women? You don't. So.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] Yeah, yeah. Can't think of. Can't think of, can you, Margi?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:10:09] Never, never saw that represented as a kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:13] Yeah, yeah. So as a girl, as you're so. Not as a teen, but when you're thinking about yourself as a girl, you know, did you individuate that way? Do you. Did you run? Did you do the things that felt what I'm hearing from you as, as you. As, like more innately you and your expression, or did you feel like. When you look back, are you like. I. I was definitely conditioned. I had a conditioned self, even as a young girl.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:10:44] Yeah, I think. I think I felt conditioned. I think I felt like it was okay for me to like these things, but not as good as if I had liked the other things. So I don't think my, my parents never said you can't, you know, be in track, you can't be in sports. But I always felt like choosing to play an instrument was a better choice, or maybe doing dance was a better choice because those are feminine pursuits. And so I never, I never had a moment where it was like, you can't do that, you know, I also was in gymnastics for a while. Like, I think they kind of push me towards more feminine sports or pursuits or hobbies or whatever. But I always felt like that was not the capital T. The right answer that people were hoping for from me.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:43] Right.

Baptism at Eight and Early Anxiety

John Dehlin [00:11:44] So let's talk about your baptism.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:11:46] Yes, I. And I, I guess, or anything else

John Dehlin [00:11:50] that leads up to it that you want to mention.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:11:52] Yeah, no, I think I remember. You know, we train, like when these kids are getting ready to be baptized, like that whole year of from 7 to 8, every class somehow seems to be like, it's about baptism. Like songs about baptism. The blessings are about baptism. You're talking about baptism all the time. Your parents, you know, you have this interview with the bishop, like, baptism, baptism, baptism. And I remember laying in bed one night or just like after all these conversations about baptizing baptism, the number one thing that gets hit home is like, you can sin now. You can be imperfect, you can be less than you currently are now. And little babies are perfect, seven year olds are perfect. But suddenly at eight, like the flip switches or the switch flips, and now you can sin and you can become bad.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] And never. Mormons won't quite understand this idea of, in Mormonism, the age of accountability, Joseph Smith, our first prophet, just at some arbitrary point said, At 8, you're responsible for your sins. The day before you're 8, you're not responsible for your sins. And so it can be a heavy, I guess, a heavy burden for a kid to feel like all of a sudden my mistakes are counting against me in heaven.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:13:11] Yeah. And I even asked my mom, do you like, is it better to die before you're eight? Because if you die before you're eight, you never sin, then you go to heaven. Yeah, that's the logical that tracks solution to the age of accountability. It sounds like it's smarter to die at 7 than to risk becoming 8.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Because Joseph Smith also taught that any kid who dies before they're eight immediately goes to celestial kingdom. Yeah, right.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:13:41] Yeah. So the math works out on that one. Like, it's. I just remember feeling so disappointed that I had to become eight. And I feel like it really impacted me after my baptism to just have to feel like this perceived weight of sin that was suddenly on me that, you know, if I had been, you know, somewhat rude to my sibling previously, I was fine, I was in the clear. But then suddenly, at eight, I have to take the sacrament. And two, I think the sacrament never quite felt as, you know, earth, as cleansing as baptism. Like we say it's the same as baptism in the church.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:14:25] But for some reason baptism always in my mind seemed like the true cleansing. And, and then the sacrament is like, oh, this is like representative. But it just didn't have at least personally, like didn't feel, I remember at 8, 9, 10, like it didn't feel like I was being baptized every week. It felt like I was baptized once and now I'm full of sin.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] It's intense.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:49] It is intense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Okay, so. So was that a scary memory for you then or.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:14:57] Yeah, I think at the time, I think all of these things when I was experiencing them, it was very difficult to view outside of the realm of just unquestionable reality. I don't think I was maybe mature enough or complex enough in my nuanced thinking to be like, does that make sense? Are 8 year olds full of sin when 7 year olds are perfect? I think, I think it was when I experienced all these things, it was very difficult as a kid to take it as anything else as the literal truth.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Yeah, I'll just, just because they're so on point. I'll read a couple comments. Thunder Snow writes, my baptism was the worst day of my life up to that point. I suddenly felt unworthy because my sister and I had a fight after I got baptized. I definitely got that logic. I defin got that logic. Better to die so that and then somebody else. Daisy May writes, No 8 year old should have the burden of that decision. It's horrifying. And there's probably a whole bunch of Mormons who just think what a beautiful thing getting baptized. You're a kid, it's sweet, but it's not always experienced that way by all the people.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:16:20] So.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Yeah, thanks for talking about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] So where does your Mormon story go from baptism?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:16:29] I think as I age into being a teenager, I think the theme of my childhood and adolescence is trying to push down any urge or any personality trait or any. Anything about me that felt not Mormon enough. I think I. If I felt like I was being a good Mormon, I felt really good about myself. And if I felt like I was not being a good Mormon, I felt really bad.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:16:57] And so I have so many stories to, you know, kind of illustrate this point, but one that I write about in the book is I in my biology class we were learning about Darwin evolution and I thought it was so fascinating and I checked out a book, I checked out the Origin of Species and I took it home and I was reading it and trying to understand it. This was I think 10th grade and I went to church for a Wednesday activity, a youth activity. We're playing basketball, and a kid got out, and I made a joke about natural selection. You know, like, oh, you know, you're. You're not. You've been naturally selected out of the basketball. I don't know. It's a dumb joke, but the.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:41] What?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:17:42] A member of the bishopric called me to the side and had me go in the hallway and said, I basically, like, I can't believe you are bringing the theory of evolution into the church and that you're talking about that.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:17:59] That topic or the idea that Adam and Eve, you know, didn't exist in this church building. And his face got all red and he got all flustered, and, like, I felt so embarrassed, almost like I didn't. I don't think when I learned about evolution, I was even really tracking that evolution was not necessarily something that contradicted the Adam and Eve creation story. I just was in a science class, and the next day I took the book back.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:18:31] I decided. I was like, okay, science, science is not for me. I want to be a good Mormon. I want to really, truly believe as. As fervently as I can, because that's how I'll know I'm a good person.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:18:46] And so that's like. That's one example of, you know, having something arise that I'm interested in or passionate about, only to discover that that's not compatible with Mormon belief. And so I have to throw it in the trash can. And I'm gonna throw it in the trash can, not because it's a bad idea, but purely because I've had someone model to me that this is not a Mormon principle, and so it shouldn't play a part in my life at all.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Those of us old enough will remember Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon apostle Bruce Armaconki, giving a talk called the Seven Deadly Heresies. And evolution was one of the Seven Deadly Heresies. So, like, there was a time, even though BYU is taught evolution forever, where just you. You would never bring it up, you know, so I'm sorry that happened.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:19:36] Oh, well, it's okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:38] I mean, one thing that's occurring to me with your story and as you're talking is this idea that you've brought up around baptism. You know, at a very young age, you be. You becoming very aware how quickly you move from pure to impure, like, how. How little it takes, right? And even in this conversation where you're in the moment and you're playing and you bring up natural selection and how serious it all is, you know, just how little it takes to be viewed as a threat, to be outside, to be viewed as impure, to not be good.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:17] Like, to all those things. Did you were. Was some of that hypersensitivity? I guess what I'm asking is from your baptism, did that stay with you? Did that piece of you that was like, what, wow, it's so easy to all of a sudden be sinful. Like, I fight with my sister. I want, you know, something that's not selfless, or I say a comment about natural selection. Did it create in you sort of a perfectionism, this really hypervigilant state of I must be ideal, I must be.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:20:52] Yeah, I think it. I think it really did. And the church, I mean the church doctrine is so I remember on my mission, jumping ahead a tiny bit, there was this quote about how, like, because you're supposed to wake up at 6:30, that if you wake up at 6:30, that's exact obedience and exact obedience brings miracles. And that if you wake up at 6:31, that you. That the person the Lord was going to deliver to you to be baptized that day will no longer be delivered to you because you were disobedient. And so it truly is like my salvation is hanging on a thread all the time. Not just, not just on my mission, but like in every step you take as a Mormon, in every thought, God is in your mind. You never exist outside of this, like, razor blade of morality, black and white.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:47] It's like everything is serious.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:21:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:49] Everything matters.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Everything's almost deadly.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:52] Everything. Yes. Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:21:54] And as someone who, like, who has had pretty significant anxiety and depression, it's a really. It's a firestorm for someone who.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] I think you just censored. You. You moderated that comment, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:22:07] A little bit.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:22:09] No, I. Yeah. So I think. I think those triggering events would make me feel so, like, back in the box, like I will do. I was willing my whole Mormon experience. I was willing to do whatever it took to be the good Mormon, because I truly believe that that is how I could know I was a good person was being on the straight. They literally call it the straight and narrow. That's what we're describing.

Modesty, Shame, and the Female Body

John Dehlin [00:22:41] So how did the church's messages around modesty and your job in terms of policing or supporting righteous thoughts from the boys, how did that proceed for you?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:22:54] I. I think that women have their own vast set of problems to deconstruct and think about and reconfigure in leaving the church. And I, for me, a big one. Is just my body, the way that Mormonism owns your body as, especially as a woman. I think I had, when I was also in high school, we had the bishop come in and give a lesson about modesty. And he talked about how if a girl and he like, you know, how, you know how the bishop looks at every single person in the room. That seems like something a lot of men, male leaders in the church would do. They like really give you the eyes, the penetrating glance.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] It's like I see, I can see through yourself.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:23:46] Yeah, like they're trying to, I don't know what they're trying to do, but it worked. But he said that when girls show even a little bit too much skin that men and boys, because he was, I think, talking to, about the young men, picture them naked. And as a kid, you know, because I was still a kid, a teenager is still a kid. As a 13 year old, I just remember trying so hard, like sitting on my hands because every part of me was like wanting to like reach up to my clothes and like make sure that they were covering me and pull my skirt down and just feeling like, oh, like, but where's the boundary? How much skin is it? Because there's a boundary for everything. So is if my skirts here, if my skirts here, if my skirts here wins the boundary where suddenly they see you naked, like in their brain?

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:24:39] And trying to, just as I had so many times before, trying to find. Okay, so what, Tell me the rule. I want the rule because I want to be safe and I want to feel like I'm doing, I'm being a good Mormon. And so it's so crazy to look back on that and realize that that's just such a creepy, reprehensible thing for this older man to be saying to a group full of teenagers while the two female leaders in the room are just everything's, you know, like those women didn't step in and say, hey, that's creepy and body shaming and let's not sexualize the bodies of 13 year olds.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:25:21] But they just, they said, yeah, that's probably true. That is how men think. And I, I feel like so much of Mormonism, like those types of experiences, because that's not the only type of experience I had. Like that really trained me to despise my body. Because purely by having a female body, you're sinning because you, you're a woman, because you exist in the female form, you have the ability to make it so that men no longer have agency. Like, that's what he was describing, in

John Dehlin [00:25:57] essence, you're damning them.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] By existing.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:25:59] Protect the priesthood by dressing correctly is saying, men don't have free agency when it comes to policing their own thoughts. That's your responsibility. And that to me was, you know, and that. That message gets played out so many times and, you know, even women saying it to other women, women policing each other's clothing, men policing women's clothing. It's this, it's the. The repeated value of Mormonism is just that a woman's body, if in the wrong context, becomes one of the most immoral things on the planet. And if that's the case, then in my body, in the wrong context, is the most immoral thing on the planet. It feels so easy to just feel like, well, that must be true for me then. If I show too much skin, I've caused this person to commit an egregious sin. And that was because of me.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] Yeah, yeah. You mentioned your outline just sort of coming of age and you know, when your period came and then you lost it. Do you want to tell that story?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:27:09] Yeah, this. Actually. I just finished reading the Jeanette McCurdy book, I'm glad My Mom Died. And she has an eating disorder. Spoiler sorry, spoilers coming. And she. She makes herself so skinny. And her mom teaches her how to have an eating disorder and how to calorie restrict. And the premise of it is that Jeanette is starting to get older. She's starting to hit puberty. And she says, like, I don't want boobs. I want to be skinny. I want to be a tiny child again. And her mom's like, well, here's how you do that. You calorie restrict.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:27:42] And so when I was a freshman in high school, I ran a lot. I was in the cross country team. And I had, I think, just reading her book, I had a very similar experience where I was running enough that I stopped getting my period for like six months, a year, a long time. And I was really glad because it felt like this burden had been lifted off of me because I just didn't want. I didn't want puberty. I didn't. I wanted to be this, like eight, you know, seven year old. I wanted to be this, like, tiny child because as a child, you feel like you're immune from these ideas that your body is a sin or that your body can be a sin in all these different contexts.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:28:29] And so I think I just always wanted to, like, have a return to the previous version of myself where I felt like I was A better version of Mormon Me. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:42] Yeah. Can we go back just for a second? Because I think this is important to your story, this moment where it was a. I think it was a Bishop, right? The Bishop that was saved.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:28:55] Yeah. I was a member of the Bishop.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:56] A member of the Bishop.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:28:57] I don't remember which member.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:58] Because I just think it's interesting in going back to our stories, the power of emotion and where we are in development when certain conditioning, let's just say beliefs meet us and how. When they get rooted. Like, sometimes we hear things, I think, throughout growing up, and it's kind of like, yep, I hear it, but it's different when it, like, lands and it. And usually emotion and kind of where we are vulnerably in development sometimes. Like, I think for many people, like the licked.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:29:31] The licked cupcake.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:32] Yes. Or like, sometimes that lands in a different way, depending on when you receive it. So I'm curious, in that moment where this really seems to, like, take root in you, it plays out for a while. Is that right? In reading your book? I feel like that's true. Can you speak? Because I think it's horrific. I think this reality that's painted in a moment about men and then about yourself. Like, will you just take us through what beliefs were born emotionally, what you thought about your body, your sexuality, and what you thought about men in particular, what was born or cemented or rooted in that moment when you were. That kind of played out.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] And this is from the book?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:30:21] Yeah, I think. I mean, what he was describing is that men are predators. Like, he's saying, every man you'll ever meet is a predator. Like, he's looking at you and trying to picture you naked. And he's saying, too, women will never understand this.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:30:42] Only men do this. Men are wired differently. And so he's actively teaching me, you should never trust men, ever. Because all of them. If he's saying all men do this, okay, so my dad does this. My future spouse does this. Every young men's leader I've ever has does this. That's to put. To say that men do this, to say that men actively attempt to picture young girls naked is to say that all men are. You should just never trust them.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:31:19] And that's really damaging because women want to have close relationships with their fathers, with their brothers, with their partners. Like, and so if you're taught this from birth, especially too, like, with the whole pornography thing, there's such a strong current of, like, every man watches pornography. I think Elder Holland was like, you should not just ask if he's watched pornography, but ask when is the last time he watched pornography.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:31:50] And, and while also saying pornography is the most horrible and damning thing ever, and it rips the soul apart. If, if you believe all men watch pornography and all men picture women naked, and all men are this way, are

John Dehlin [00:32:06] destroying their souls through watching pornography.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:32:08] Yes. Then how do you know? How do you, as a young girl growing into being a woman, really have the level of ability to trust a man? How can, how can you trust, if this is what's taught to you? And so I think that is one thing that really cemented itself in my mind as a young Mormon girl. Like, don't trust men. Men will lie. They might tell you. Of course, I don't do that. But no, the bishop knew or the member of the bishopric knew. That's not the case. Men are different. Men are wired differently. And so that's, to me, so damaging because I think women deserve to have close, intimate relationships with the men in their lives. And if you're told to never trust men for these, these reasons, how can, how can you have a trusting relationship with them?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:03] And wasn't it kind of, if not said, implied that men can't control themselves? It's not, it's like, it's not a choice. It's not a. It's the way things are.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:33:14] Yes. And crazy to. I always, I mean, just that the whole agency aspect, so much of Mormon doctrine is about free agency. We chose to come to this earth. We chose to have our, you know, we chose to come to the earth. We choose to get baptized. We choose all these things. We choose, choose, choose. And then at this one point in Mormon doctrine, choice no longer exists. Now the choice is on the woman to dress correctly and the man simply exists.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:45] Yeah. And back to your analogy of like, that realization of like, that would make men, in a sense, predators, then it would make you pray.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:33:56] Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:57] Like, like, I'm curious about the playout because I do feel like this follows your story a little bit. It comes up in the. So the belief that you had then about you in the world.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:34:08] Yeah, I think it, it really made me feel a sense of self repulsion because if, if my body will do that to a man, then that means my body is a sin and that, that's a sin I can't control because I cannot become disembodied. Um, and I, I think in my whole childhood, in my adolescence, trying so hard to never sin, but then to still be told, like, this is, you know, I Also, talk about in the book, Britney Spears. Why is she bad? She's bad cause she's sexy. What about her is sexy? Because she dresses this way and acts this way. Like, so if I dress that way, if I acted that way, I would also be bad.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:34:57] I think my mind just so easily went to this idea that the female form, women's bodies are so hyperactive or so radioactive. Radioactive, sorry, like, so radioactive to men that I don't think you can confidently exist in the female form if you've been told this information.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:19] Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Intellectual Life and High School Years

John Dehlin [00:35:23] Let's talk about your intellectual life in your brain as you're in these high school years. And there you're trying to be the perfect Mormon, but probably inside you're having lots of different types of thoughts. Right. Kind of an extension of the evolution inclination, but maybe in other ways.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:35:41] Yeah, I. Yeah, similarly, I, I also. My other loves in high school and now were painting and art and reading. And readers like to write, so I guess that's where the book comes from. But I remember reading the Book of Mormon and many people have said this about the Book of Mormon, that they read it and they're just like, I just am not getting that much from it. Like, it's just, I. It was so hard to get investigators to read the Book of Mormon. It was so hard for me even to get through the whole Book of Mormon. It's just such a dense, uninteresting, like.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:36:18] And. And I really wanted to like the Book of Mormon. I wanted to love the Book of Mormon. But I would then go from this experience of kind of working my way through each verse of the Book of Mormon, doing my diligence, my due diligence. And then I'd go to these other books that I loved, and I would stay up till 2 or 3 in the morning just like. Like with my. I was the kid with the bed, the flashlight in the bed, like, reading the book.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] What are some of your favorites from back then?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:36:45] I. So I really. I. My favorite was Crime and Punishment.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:49] Wow.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:36:50] Yes. Which I read my senior year of high school. And then I. I always wanted to read the big books, so I read Anna Karenina. And it was so. It's so funny looking back, like, Anna Karenina. Spoilers ahead is also about, you know, a married woman who falls in love with a younger man and then things go wrong and she ends up killing herself.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:37:13] And I loved that book. That. That book was so epic and just morally complex in a way that also, like Les Mis, I have that on my list. I read Les Mis and like the idea of a girl going into prostitution to feed her child. That is the most complex moral question. Can a woman sell her body if it is to feed her child? And as, you know, as a Mormon kid, I'm like, should I be reading this? But also, it was, you know, the only way I could access, I think, these more complex thoughts was in this classic literature because I couldn't watch movies about a woman having an affair.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:37:57] I couldn't watch a movie about a girl being a prostitute. But I was always allowed to read classic literature. And Crime and Punishment is about a murder and the questions of morality surrounding this murder and what he goes through after he chooses to do the murder.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] And I was just corrected. I said Tolstoy, but it's Toevsky, so I apologize for that.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:38:19] Tolstoy as Anakin.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:20] I said that again.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:38:24] So, yeah, I think the reason I gravitated towards these books is because it was my. I was always allowed to read classic literature. And I. But within classic literature, there are some of the most horrendous, questionable, strange, beautiful moral questions that I couldn't ask or talk about in any other form. Not in tv, not in movies, any of that stuff. It would have been on, you know, I would have to go on Clear Play or something.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:38:55] But there was no Clear Play for Anna Karenina. So I just loved. It was just such a stark difference to me, going from reading the Book of Mormon and struggling through it and trying so hard to love it because I knew I was supposed to, and then staying up late to read these dense books that were so complex and interesting to me. And the same with my art.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:39:17] I've always made. It's kind of funny, like, pretty psychedelic stuff. Like, looking back now, I feel like it's very psychedelic art with weird characters and really strange colors. And when I would show my family or other Mormons my art, they would really want me to be doing, like, landscapes or portraiture or realism. And people would be kind of put off by my art because it wasn't art in the type of sense. You'd go into Deseret Book and you see the picture of Joseph Smith and he's having the first vision.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:39:55] And now I show my art to people who were never Mormon, and they love it and they think it's really cool. But I think I could never have that type of art appreciated within a Mormon community because Mormonism wants the George Washington praying by his horse type of art. And so I. So that was another disconnect, like, feeling like these parts of myself are wrong. And I can't even say why a painting is wrong, but I can tell it is. And I can tell that there's other art. Art that is the right kind of Mormon art and the right kind of Mormon images. So just other.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:40:37] Other examples of, as a kid having, like, this. I feel, like, very vibrant personality bubbling underneath and trying to suppress it whenever I got wind of, like, that's not Mormon. You need to be more Mormon. And I really regret not leaning into that part of myself, because I think, you know, maybe I wouldn't be writing a book about leaving the Mormon Church. Maybe I'd be writing the great next American novel, but maybe I still will. You know, you never know. But I just think, like, I shut down so many paths and opportunities and dreams for myself in the name of trying to just be a really good Mormon.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:41:23] And that fills me with a lot of regret because I think I gave up. It wasn't even I gave up a dream. It was like I never even allowed myself to dream to begin with.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] Yeah, what's that line on little women? You could have been a lawyer or doctor. What was the line?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:41] It's like, I could have been a great many things. Mr. Whatever. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Yeah. Okay, so you. You're in high school, but then you decide to homeschool. Is that. Is that.

Friendships, Dating, and the Law of Chastity

Alyssa Grenfell [00:41:55] Yeah. So I had a really funny. I mean, funny looking back, stressful and awful at the time. But I. I fell in with a group of kids from my art class who were less than desirable because they swore and skipped school, which is very normal for, as it turns out, you know, Turns out kids do that. But at the time, my mom got really concerned that I was hanging out with the wrong crowd of kids. And I. Like. I made a MySpace, but I made it so she couldn't. I made it at a friend's house because she told us we weren't allowed to have myspaces.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:42:36] And one day, I skipped a single period of class, and I sat in the library with two of my friends, and it wasn't like we didn't even go in the back and smoke a cigarette. We were sitting in the library talking. But it's a slippery slope, Alyssa. Very slippery slope.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:42:56] But she. So I. You know, they made the report. You missed a class. I got called in. They called my mom and my parents, and my mom was like, I don't like who you're falling in with. I don't think these friends are good for you. And I. I really became so guilty about it that I asked to be homeschooled so that I wouldn't have to see these friends again, but also so that I could just exist in this. You know, what I'm always looking for is like, to go back. I just want to exist in this state of having no temptations, no opportunities to choose something wrong.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:43:32] I just want to be insulated from sin. And so I was homeschooled for a year. And after. After I went back to school, I got some better friends and I started. I just became the type of kid that's always giving out copies of the Book of Mormon and I invited tons of friends to steak dances. And I think my family always looks back at that time as like my rebellious time, which is so funny because all I did was skip a single period of class and I made a MySpace. But to me at the time, it just felt like I have done an unpardonable sin and I will be making recompense for this for the rest of my life because.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:44:23] Because of the black and white, I think, because it's just so easy to slip off the slippery slope. And, you know, it's. And it's sad to me too, that these kids that I was friends with who swore sometimes in skip school were like the devil they were. Kid. Those are also just children. Those are kids. But in my Mormon mind, they were. They became demonized because they were leading me down this horrible path. So. So, yeah, that's. That kind of brings me into real quick.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Did you date in high school and. Or did you ever experience any sort of Mormon law of chastity, kind of guilt, pre mission?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:45:11] No, I. I really was pretty. I dated some. I didn't date anyone very seriously, though. I really was pretty, like, more very Mormon when it came to that. Like, don't pair off. You know, I went on a lot of group dates, but I didn't really date anyone super seriously before my mission.

John Dehlin [00:45:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:33] Did you feel like there was a barrier still, let's say at 16 and 17, kind of around where you had a distrust of boys your age, Is that part of it? Or was it that you were busy or. You know, do you remember your frame of reference in dating if you had still remnants of some of that or if it was just more about, like, I was busy, I was, you know.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:45:59] Yeah, I. I had one guy that I dated and that. That what? Like, I wouldn't. I still wouldn't say that it was that serious, but I would, you know, that was like the closest thing maybe to having a boyfriend in high school. And it was kind of the Same thing where I felt like wanting to just have a vast amount of distance and feeling safer, making it, you know, more of like a friendship kind of thing and always feeling like he, you know, wanted to like do the kissing and stuff. And I like, don't, don't touch.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:46:36] And I think I was really set up for failure in that regard because I think I had just had so much messaging surrounding like men and boys being this way that it's easier to just be like, well, I guess I won't then I won't mess with this, I won't deal with this versus, you know, trying to have a crush or go and pair off or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:04] Yeah, I do think sometimes when you have, when you accept portrayals of men as being this kind of almost hyper sexual being, then it really does, it can have the effect on women. You can tell me if this is true of like wanting to desexualize yourself. It's like, well, if you're holding it for the. Then like not a hint, nary a hint of sexuality over here.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:47:32] Yeah, I was definitely like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:34] Not responsible for anything you're feeling or. Yeah, did you feel like that and then there's this huge disconnect to your own body, to your own experience, to your own desire.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:47:43] Yeah, I think it was much easier to just be like, I'm just going to disassociate from that aspect of life, than try to confront the difficulty of like having some sort of relationship with someone that secretly is picturing me naked and only wants to have sex with me and has no interest at all in anything I have to say, but has one thing on his mind, you know, why step into something like that when your only goal in life is to be a really good Mormon kid? That's how I felt.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:20] I have, I'm curious about your experience in high school about learning. Like, did you find that you loved learning, that you appreciated kind of the experience of school? How, how was your identity then? Or were you more like prone to like, I don't know, how would you express your identity in high school with regard to school and running and all the things. And did perfectionism or optimization kind of enter into the equation there too?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:48:54] Yeah, I definitely, I was a very good student. My parents really had that as a principal was having good grades, being a good student. I did so many times hear the idea that a woman only needs a degree if her husband dies.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:49:17] And so that was a difficult and just a challenging aspect of the messaging around schooling that I was always trying to understand or piece together. Is school is really important. You should get good grades, but also you only need to make babies, and you'll only need to use your brain if your husband dies. So do I need, like, how do those two ideas put push, you know, how do they fit together? I don't know.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:49:47] But I felt like I really loved learning. I, like I said, I loved my biology and science classes. I loved my English classes. I was always a really good student. But it always, it, it did feel like this. What is it? What's the point, though, if I'm hearing that ultimately my wedding day is the most important day of my life, not the day I'll get my PhD, you know, and defend my thesis or something?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] So did you have, like, career ambitions bubbling up by the time you're a senior that you had to be down because it didn't fit with the Mormon dream?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:50:27] Yeah, I. My senior year, I was really trying to decide what I would major in in college. And I had a lot of, a lot of ideas. I thought about trying to get into a painting or art, fine arts program.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:42] I.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:50:43] Writing was always a big thing, photography. So I had, you know, like a lot of high school seniors. I was like, well, you know, what should I do? And my dad would always give us a, A blessing at the beginning of each school year.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Father's blessing.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:50:59] Father's blessing. And so he, you know, we all gather together, everyone sits in the room, he puts his hands on my head, he starts the blessing. And in the blessing he says that I am meant to be an English teacher and that will be my calling, that will be my career. That, that's, that's what I should do with my life is to be an English teacher. And I was like, oh, well, that's easy. I don't have to think anymore.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:51:32] I don't have to question. I don't have to self reflect. I already know what I should major in. So I very quickly and easily, like, threw the rest of the ideas in the trash can. I declared my major before I even arrived. And my first year of byu, all four years I was on the track, I didn't deviate at all because I viewed that as a very serious edict from God, like a commandment, this is what you're going to do. And so don't, don't question.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] My Mormon brain is like, oh, how beautiful. Those father's blessings are so sweet. And he, he's a loving dad that takes you aside and gives you a blessing and while he gets inspiration for you because he knows you so well, that's my Mormon brain. My now brain is like, that's almost abuse. You don't tell someone what their career is going to be like. Even if you have the best intentions.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:29] That's in the name of God.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] I mean, telling him to do it.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:52:34] Because I fully believed 100% that blessings were the word of God, because that's what. That's the doctrine that when words are exiting a man's mouth when his hands are placed on your head, that's God, that is not your dad. And so it's. If you get something in your patriarchal blessing, something in a blessing you're given from healing, you know, any blessing, I, you know, people will take notes during blessings. People will have someone writing the script out because they. They believe it's so sacred and important. And it's not like I'm taking notes when my dad's talking to me all the time, but when he's giving me a blessing, I am taking those things very, very seriously.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:21] Words of God.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] Yeah. So you know what, Lane? To stay in thanks to your dad, Right?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Well.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:28] And I. I do feel like he was. I don't.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:33] I don't.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:35] I don't resent him for it because I. Well, I love my dad and my mom. I, you know, they're my parents. I love them. I should make that very clear. I think that they. I think Mormonism just makes you play the parts that you're meant to play. And so I don't think that in giving a father's blessing, my dad was, you know, not that you're saying he was, but. But I think. I think he was feeling like this is the best thing a Mormon father can do for his Mormon daughter is to give this blessing and to say what I feel inspired to say. And who knows?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:54:12] My guess is that during that week, I had said several times, like, I'll be an English teacher. And so because he heard me say that, he was like, okay, I'll put it in your blessing. And that's that. And maybe the week before, I had been saying I'd be an artist, and if we did the blessing in that week, maybe I'd be an artist.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] You know, I don't think so, because I think being an artist scares.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:54:34] That's true. That's not a very. An English teacher is the most mom type of career path imaginable. So you're not wrong.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there's always that choice of college or mission or no mission or all that. Right?

Preparing for and Serving a Mission

Alyssa Grenfell [00:54:52] Yeah. So I, I was, I, when I turned 19. They hadn't changed the age yet. So I went to college. I served my mission when I was 21. I was 20. So the age change worked for me just a little bit because it was 21 and they changed it to 19, and I was 20 when I left. So I went to BYU for a few years.

John Dehlin [00:55:18] And so you went during that big change time?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:55:21] Yeah, I was at BYU when the wave happened.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Monson was president.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:55:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:55:26] I was in my BYU dorm during that. During that big announcement about the age change. And you could, like, hear girls, like, crying in the apartment above us. And people were on the street being like, they changed the age. And it was like a mania. I think it really became kind of like this, who can proclaim the fastest they're gonna go serve a mission? And then all these guys started being like, I'll only date a girl who's a returned missionary. And it just changed the whole culture of byu. So just overnight, it was kind of funny. But what year is that about? Where.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] What year was that about?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:56:04] Oh, I don't know, 15ish. Pre 15. I really want to say 2013 or.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] Okay. Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:56:10] Yeah, I'd have to look it up.

John Dehlin [00:56:11] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:56:13] So, yeah, I went to BYU for a few years, and then I. Then they changed the age and I. So I actually wasn't permitted to go on a mission when I wanted because I had mental health concerns. And my bishop said I had to be sign. I had to have a counselor sign off before I could serve. And that was really hard on me because that felt like being punished for having depression, because it kind of is, but it's because the church doesn't want the liability of having a depressive missionary, I guess. So they just say you have to have a doctor sign off. But I was really frustrated that they wouldn't let me go.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:56:55] And so that I. I was going to my therapist, I was seeing her, and this kind of hits my first big moment where I started to question God, because I had. It was so hard on me to have to wait to serve a mission, especially with this mania of all these girls serving. I was like, I want to serve, too.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:57:19] And I remember I was sitting in the temple, the Provo Temple, doing baptisms for the dead, because I would go every week, as all the best Mormons do at byu. And as I was sitting there, I just had this very strong feeling. I wasn't even praying about my mission at all, but I had this really strong feeling that I was going to serve my mission in Italy.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:57:44] And it just hit Me like a ton of bricks, like, from. From left field. I just had this, like, really strong feeling. I'm going to serve my mission in Italy.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] And that have been your art brain. It's like Florence and Leonardo da Vinci and like.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:57:57] Yeah. I mean, the David is. Many people are dreaming of serving in Wisconsin. Sorry, Wisconsinites. But yeah, so I. And I started to cry. I was like, God. And I remember. Just so I remember being like, God is blessing me because he's. He's blessing me with this knowledge because I'm waiting and I'm waiting till my bishop says I can go on my mission. So he's blessing me with this knowledge because the Lord loves me so much that he's basically, like, preordaining me with this beautiful information as a blessing for waiting for my depression to go away.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:36] It's like, hang on.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:58:38] Yeah, just hang on. And I went home and I wrote in my journal, I know I will serve my mission in Italy. And I know I will serve my mission in Italy, as sure as I know that there is a God.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:52] Wow.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:58:54] Because my. Because it was the feel. It was the same feeling. It was that spiritual bubbling up feeling, the bur in the bosom that I had used to know truth my whole life. And I just felt like the Lord really blessed me. And it's so funny because when I tell the story to people, they're like, God wouldn't give you that information. I'm like, he. I really felt like he did. Sorry, maybe missing the point.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:19] Just saying.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:59:20] Well, so I finally get cleared to serve my mission and I put in my papers and I wanted to open my mission call up on y mountain. And so I, like, hiked up the mountain because in the Bible it talks a lot about going up on the mount for a spiritual, you know, having communion. So I wanted to make it very special because I'd been waiting for so long. And I opened the envelope and did the thing where you put the letter, you know, hide so you can't check and see where you're going. And I like edged.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] What's that about? Why do they cover up where you're getting?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:00:01] You can't jump ahead and cheat and look where you're going.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] Because, like, the first sentences are God's words.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:06] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:00:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:08] There's an optimal way, an optimization even to reading your life.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:00:14] So you're supposed to go and use the envelope. Byu I guess I've been to so many missions. I mean, all the girls, all my friends had are. You know, you just see it. They. They have their Their mission call, and they do this. And then they read line by line.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:27] Oh, my.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:00:29] If you watch. If you go after this and watch a YouTube video of a missionary opening call, they'll do it. So I began reading line by line and just, you know, I'm like, man, I already know. I already know what this is going to say. This is. Here it comes.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:47] Here it comes.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:00:47] Italy is. It's just gonna appear before me. God already told me. And I read Denver, Colorado, and I just remember. Almost like I just put it down. And they looked around like, is the manager here? I gotta talk to someone about this. I think they sent me the wrong letter. I'm not supposed to go to Colorado.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:01:13] And I just. I felt like I had been punched in the stomach because the way that I was so sure I would have bet all the money I'd ever made in my entire life that I was gonna go to Italy, because I. That's how strong my testimony was. That's how strongly I believed that this was revelation.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:01:32] So I walk down the mountain, and as I'm walking, I just start being like, I was probably wrong. I guess it wasn't revelation. I must have misinterpreted. God didn't tell me anything. I. The, you know, the brethren that sent me this letter, they are the ones that know. I don't. I don't know.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:01:56] And by the time I got down from my hike, I was like, Italy was off in the distance. I stopped thinking about it, and I served my whole year and a half mission in Denver, Colorado.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] Really quickly, Julia wrote, I hope she gets to go to Italy someday. Have you been to Italy?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:02:12] I have been to Italy.

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Okay, good, good, good.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:02:14] I know some people, too, have said, like, well, maybe I've had active members be like, you might go there on your senior mission, a different mission.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] Yeah. Really quickly. I know that this is kind of obvious to many, but as soon as you've had that undeniable spiritual experience that proves up to be completely wrong the church, you can readjust your expectations and downplay that, but there's a lingering impact. Can you just tell us what that is?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:02:44] Yeah, I just. I. Over my entire mission, I just could never shake that feeling. I could never shake that experience of being so sure that it was as sure as I had felt about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:03:01] And almost as a Mormon, I think you're so sure about something that it feels like a way of showing faith. Like, instead of saying, I believe the church is true, you say, I know the church is true. That Saying things with this absolute cadence or tone, or just approaching a belief with saying, I know versus I think or I believe or I hope is true. Faith is knowing God, is knowing where you're going to serve your mission. And so I, I was hesitant to like, walk back this spiritual experience because I was like, I know I'm serving my mission in Italy because that's what the Spirit told me. So my whole mission, I. And still to this day, it's. It's an impossible experience to forget about and sweep under the rug.

John Dehlin [01:03:47] I was also just going to say that on a mission and in your life as a Mormon, you're taught to listen to the Holy Ghost and to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost. But at that point you would have almost had Holy Ghost trauma. Am I right?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:04:02] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Fill in those dots for us, you know?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:04:05] Yeah, I think, I think that Mormonism teaches you that you can use the Holy Ghost to know objective truth. Science, you know, the space. You know, Joseph Smith said there's Quakers on the moon. Like that you can use this gut feeling to know absolute truth. And that is why, even if there's issues with the Book of Mormon, even if there's issues with Joseph Smith's polygamy, that I think anytime I encountered any sort of history that was counter to my understanding of Mormonism, the power of the Holy Ghost that I had experienced wipes it away because it was an absolute feeling. And so that was a time that it was that I had to face this idea of, of having thought I knew truth using a gut feeling and then having that feeling objectively proved wrong by my real life events.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] Yeah, it's like an epistemological meltdown. Because how do you ever trust the quote, Holy Ghost again when it deceived you so thoroughly?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:18] Right.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:05:19] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Is that right or not? Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:05:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:21] Not trying to.

Moments of Doubt on the Mission

Alyssa Grenfell [01:05:22] Well, and there's three. So there, there's three major moments like that that I'll share. And I have in my outline that that type, that thing happened two other times in my life in such a significant way that by the third time I had to start asking, maybe it's not God teaching me objective truth about my life. Maybe my gut feeling isn't a good way to make major life choices. Or no, truth.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] Maybe feelings aren't truth.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:05:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:54] But the Mormon conditioning too, I feel like, always offers you that alternate path, even in a situation like that. Do you find? Because if it's sort of like, oh, I have, I had this moment and I'm supposed to go to Tuscany or to go to Italy or. Right. That it would be like, okay, well, God doesn't lie. The Holy Ghost is infallible. So what did I do? So maybe I wasn't righteous enough, or maybe I. And so there's always, like, some loophole.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:06:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:24] Where it leads back.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:06:25] Like that talk that was like, there's two paths, and you can. It's a story of a man and his son. And the. The man and the son are at a bridge or a fork in the road, and they choose one way, and it turns out to be the wrong way. And they had prayed, I think, to know which way should we go. And so the little boy is like, daddy, why did the Holy Ghost lead us the wrong way? And the dad says, sometimes the Lord leads us the wrong way so that we know what the right way is. Right, right. That was in a conference talk.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:06:56] And so that is another logical loophole. That no matter what, God is always omnipotent, even if he leads you down the most idiotic path. It was to teach you that the other path was right. And so there's no way to logically loop your way out of this cycle of belief.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:07:16] Like the idea of someday you'll serve your senior mission in Italy. Well, he was just trying to teach you. He was testing you. These. All of these things we say to cast away the doubts that come when these experiences happen to us.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:30] Exactly.

The Temple Endowment Experience

John Dehlin [01:07:32] So one important experience that every Mormon missionary goes on is going through the temple before they serve their missions. So do you want to talk about your temple experience?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:07:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Is that noteworthy? Was that noteworthy?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:07:46] Yeah, I think I hated the temple.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] What? You're not allowed to say that.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:07:54] Shocker. Shocker. I know.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] That's never been said on Mormon stories ever, except by every person I've ever interviewed. 99% it was.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:08:03] Yeah, it was. So I felt. I think my. My biggest word to use to describe the temple is betrayed. Because I felt like looking at my dad, looking at my mom, and just seeing their expressions, you know, I almost was looking at them to see, like, maybe this is weird to them, too. Like, unique, even strange.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:30] Odd.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:08:31] But they just had this. That was like, this is the most normal thing we've ever done in our entire lives.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Are you willing to just name some of the hardest or weirdest things just so that people who've never been to the temple will know what was hardest for you?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:08:46] Yeah, the. So you go in and you sit on either side, and you're wearing a white dress, which felt fairly normal. It's just a white dress. And the. Then they. At least when I went through, they showed you a film is about Adam and Eve that, you know, nothing new there. But then they start having you wear different clothing. The white robes, the green apron. You can Google the pictures.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:09:13] And as they're kind of. As we're going through this unwinding of my experience, you know, it just felt like an unwinding. Like, I felt like I was falling apart as this endowment is happening, as each handshake, as each new piece of clothing. And then you go up to the prayer circle, and you have to do the patriarchal grip and put your arm next, you know, on the person's shoulder next to you. And at least when I went through, when it was their first time going through, you had to go into the prayer circle.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:09:47] And I. I just was standing there and, you know, oh, God, hear the words of my mouth. And I felt too betrayed because it felt insidious to me that this ceremony was tied to my ability to serve a mission. And I knew for some of my friends, tied to their ability to get married in the temple and that they encourage you to do it as close to the event as possible.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:10:15] Because in my opinion, they know that if you bulk and say, this is not for me, you. You're also saying, I can't go on a mission. I can't get married in the temple. And so they pair this awful tradition, you know, awful ceremony with this major life event that people are flying out for, I had already put off school for, and you're about to be whisked away into marriage into a mission without truly having the opportunity to understand, like, what just happened to you. And I felt like I didn't have the opportunity to process. And it felt like by design, I didn't have the opportunity to process because they want to send you onto the mission as fast as you can so that you can't be like, wait, this is my church. I need a minute to think about this and decide if I. If I consent to having this be my new lived reality.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] Because before the temple, you didn't know this was your church.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:11:16] No, no, not at all. I would. I even had some friends try to show me videos, and I'd be like, I don't want to see it. I knew I was like, I have to wait till I'm spiritually prepared, till I can go myself. That's, you know, that's offensive. And when I came home and I took a shower, I got out, and that was the moment I was supposed to start wearing my garments. And I just stared at those two pink little baggies and wanted to cry. I don't remember if I did, but just. I was like, if I. I could feel like if I put these on right now, I'm committing that this is okay. I am saying this is okay with me.

John Dehlin [01:12:03] You're consenting?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:12:03] I'm consenting. If I just. If I. If I take this step, if I just rip the bags open and put it on my body and go out of this door like, this is. This is the crossroads of if I choose to live this or if I choose to say, what the fuck was that?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:12:21] I do not want to have this in my life. I am not okay with this. Yeah, it was weird. I didn't feel the spirit. I didn't want to ever do it again. I don't want to wear garments. I want to wear normal underwear.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:12:33] But instead, I just sat there for a while and I. You know, as it's so easy to do as a member, I just said, I know I felt the spirit before about Joseph Smith. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God, because I felt really good about it in the past.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:12:51] And I opened those bags, I put on my garments and wore them for the next four years. And that's so wild to me that I think everyone probably has that moment where they have the garments and they, you know, this is like, this is the moment now. This is my new underwear. And they have to be like, am I okay with this? And they say, yes. I think most people say yes because they're like, I'm gonna go get married in the temple, or I'm serving a mission.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] And did you go. Did you go while they were still veiling their faces? Women were still veiling their faces.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:24] I left after they made that change that they don't. Yeah. My whole experience was always the veiling of the faces.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] And did you. Did you covenant to your husband?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] While he covenanted with God?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] And do you remember that discrepancy?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:38] I hated that. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Until Internet ex Mormons sort of embarrassed the church. The Mormon Temple ceremony, The man, a married couple. The man would covenant in the temple to obey God, and the woman would covenant to the husband to hearken to the husband and would not covenant with God.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:14:00] Yes. And the. The temple film was, to me, one of the most offensive, the smallest, but still most offensive gestures was in the temple film where Adam is looking at God and he's covenanting with God, and then Eve is also looking at God, silently watching. And then God stops Talking. Adam stops talking and then Eve stops looking at God and just turns ever so slightly to look at her husband and then to covenant with him. And I was like, she, even before God, a woman has to turn to her husband. Men get to commune with the most powerful being in the universe and women turn and quietly look at their husbands and wonder what they should be doing and covenant.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:57] You know, it just, they look at a mortal.

John Dehlin [01:15:00] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:15:00] And, and that was to, that was so offensive to me that I, and I, that's why they changed it. That's why they make these changes. It's so insulting that they make these changes and people are like, they don't do that anymore in the temple. Why not? Because it was offensive. Because people complained. Why are we changing this eternal ceremony? Because of people complaining. If it's eternal, why are we changing the doctrine? It's almost like it's not eternal. It's almost like it's not doctrine. It's almost like it's just to keep the people happy.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] Yeah, because my progressive Mormon brain that's still in there is like, oh good, the church is making a positive step. They're becoming less sexist, less misogynistic. But then my orthodox Mormon brain is like, then why did we all have to go through that for decades, if not hundred plus years?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:15:47] It's like the polygamy question. We don't practice, I think the verbiage of we don't practice polygamy. Oh, but you still believe polygamy. Right? And the idea that, well, because we don't practice it anymore, it doesn't matter that all those girls had to be married to 50, 60, 70 year old men at 12, 13, 14.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:16:11] This idea that we've made a change and so we don't need to apologize, we don't need to make recompense, we don't need to fix the damage we've done to black people being kept from saving ordinances, to women experiencing these sexist parts of the church, to women not receiving the priesthood, you know, all of these different things. Like it's, Mormons almost are like, oh, they made the change, it's fine now.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:16:36] Any suffering faced by any people previous to me matters not at all. That is so hurtful and so insulting because it just, it's erasure. They just erase it. It's like by making the change, they erase that it ever existed. And that to me is so offensive and so damaging.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] Something I don't argue you and I have ever processed is once we went to the temple, you pretty much never Went back. And in my mind, I'm like, hey, Mark, you want to go to the temple? You're like, not really. I'm just like, okay. And in my mind, I don't know if I was just like, well, I hope she's okay. I guess I'll be extra righteous. But you just never liked it. This is back in 93. You know what I mean? We never really processed that. I think I was probably afraid to.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:17:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] Do you remember feeling those things that Alyssa.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:33] Yeah. And I relate a lot to Alyssa's experience that way. I think, too, one thing for just people that didn't grow up Mormon is this idea, too, that, like, through young women, it's like years and years and years of talk about the temple as, like, heaven on earth, pinnacle experience. All part of it, too, is just. Yes. It's disturbing in its own right. And it also is, like, how built up it is, how, like the divinity,

Alyssa Grenfell [01:18:07] the whole sort of.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:09] And particularly for young women, I don't know for young men if it's talked about that way, but for young women, it's like, in young women, you never get really past the temple. I don't know what's supposed to happen to a woman other than having babies, because really, the temple is it. That's all we cover.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:18:27] That's all we've got. And that women tell their husbands their new name, but husbands and men never tell anyone. Only God knows. It's the same dynamic. Women tell men, men tell God. That little graph plays out so many times, and it is offensive and hurtful and so damaging to just have this reality that I will never. I will never commune directly with God in at least an organizational sense. In the temple, I'm always either looking forward to being married and then once I'm married, I am. I am focused on my priesthood holder as my guiding star in this world. And I. Yeah, I. At the temple, I. I really did hate that. And it felt like it was really insult to injury on top of everything else that happens in the temple.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] And you talk about that moment where you, like, put your garments on for the first time and walk out of the room and there's no going back. I had that similar moment just with my testimony, where I was like, I never got the witness that the church was true. But now I'm in Guatemala and I've got to go teach the discussion. Can I say I know it's true? I guess I'll just say, I know it's true, and maybe I'll gain the. So, like, there's this moment. There are these moments where you're ignoring yourself, your 8 year old self, your, you know, your high school self, the evolution self, the maybe I should be an artist self. Maybe this temple experience is awful self. And what do you do each time as a Mormon? What do you do?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:20:00] Yeah, you just keep pushing it down. And it's like, I think also Jeffrey Holland, apparently he lives rent free in my head where he says, what's the quote? Where he, he says very. You know how he always had that like voice? You're like, and if you don't have a testimony, then lean on mine. And like he, you know, I think that was the same talk where he's like, to refute the Book of Mormon, they have to go or leave the church. They have to go under the Book of Mormon, over the Book of Mormon or around the Book of Mormon. You cannot go through the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] Then you said crawl. Crawl.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:20:34] Yeah, crawl your way. And it's almost like he's like, if I can just speak in the most absolutist terms possible, I will capture the minds of all these people. If I just say if you don't have a testimony, it's actually fine for you to serve a mission. Because I have a testimony. And if I have a testimony as the one apostle that's speaking in this conference talk, then the rest of you don't even need confirmation. You just have to listen to me. That is such a disgusting use of

John Dehlin [01:21:05] power because you're going to be paying 10% of your income for the rest of your life to the church that he leads. Right. It's radical in his teachings. And so it is an abusive power because he's basically saying, give your life to us.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:21:20] Give your life to us. And you don't. If you don't, even if you're not sure if you should give your life to us, that's okay because I'm sure,

John Dehlin [01:21:26] I'm sure you should give your life to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:28] I'm sure enough for the both of us.

John Dehlin [01:21:32] That's good.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:21:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:34] Yeah. Okay. So you just pack that all down and serve your mission. Were there any mission stories I think you had in your outline? Maybe one or two.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:44] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:21:45] I think on my mission I mentioned the 630 versus 6, 631 rule, how that's the boundary between life and death, you know, sin and good and.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] Oh no. And, and a potential investigator, salvation or not. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:05] 631 could keep that person that you were supposed to go visit from, from.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:22:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Hearing the Gospel. So that's on YouTube.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:22:12] And I have written in my white handbook very clearly, like, exact or obedience brings blessings. Exact obedience brings miracles. And the missionary handbook is a lot of pages. I know they changed it, but for me, I had the older one, and you have to read three pages a day, and mine has copious notes. And then that's just the baseline handbook because then your mission has lots of rules, too. And so it becomes this hyper fixation. I think for so many missionaries to memorize these rules to police other missionaries on the rules, there was. There's so many tiny, random little rules. Like, there's a rule in my handbook.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:22:53] I don't know if it's still in the. The new handbook that you're supposed to keep change to give to thieves. And all the missionaries would keep change to give to thieves just in case, so that if thieves were robbing them, they could give them some money and then the robbers would leave. And I think it actually uses that wording like keep spare change to give to thieves. I'll have to look it up.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] But the thing is, in places like Brazil, people will come up and stick a gun in the missionary's chest and say, give me your money. So, I mean, I think that's. It's a way to keep you safe.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:23:26] It didn't happen in Denver, Colorado, but it's just an example of an illustration of a rule that even if some of the rules didn't feel that personally applicable, people would still go bend over backwards to follow the rule. Yeah, we had another rule is you can only be in dinner or lunch or breakfast for an hour. So the members would feed us, and you're supposed to have dinner and a lesson in that hour. And if you stay for longer than one hour for dinner and a lesson, that's disobedience. And they. The. The. I don't know if every mission has this, but we called it disso. That was the. That was the slang term. You're being disso.

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Disobedient.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:24:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:24:13] Missionaries have so many strange little slang words. And so I would get so much anxiety because if we went to a house with lots of kids, the mom's cooking the dinner. I'm looking at my clock. You know, it's 45 minutes in. She's not done with dinner yet. And sometimes we would say, we have an appointment. Like, sometimes we would stay because I feel guilty to leave. But sometimes we'd say, we have an appointment we have to get to. We have to leave, and we'd just leave without dinner. Or we'd leave without the message, or we would just leave at the hour.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] Mark, you gotta be like eight for five minutes. I gotta run. The rule says I gotta go.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:24:49] And I hope they've changed that just for the missionary's sake. Because like there's all of these tiny rules create this just massive amount of data to keep in your brain of which is it's not even like it's a job. You're not even employed by the church,

John Dehlin [01:25:06] but you're, you're paying to go.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:25:08] You're paying to go, but you're constrained in the prison of your own mind by these rules. Yeah, nobody is. No. You know, when I've posted videos about my mission, people are like, well, you know, who's checking up on you? Like another God. That's all, but pretty good at checking up on you.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:25:26] And so I felt like I got hyper, kind of an OCD level of obsession about the rules on my mission because it was always phrased as if you break these rules, you are keeping someone from salvation. God will not give you investigators if you're breaking even the tiniest little rule.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:25:47] So I, I really hated that kind of prison of my own mind of trying to. For full, you know, a full time mission is you don't even have any days off. You're supposed to even proselyte on P day. It says in the handbook to proselyte on P day. So we would proselyte on P day. So even on your day off, you're still teaching the gospel, so you're never off. And I also, in my mission, I lived with members the whole time, so I never had my own apartment. I always had to be in a small room and in a member's home. And they would, members would create like long lists of rules, like you can only shower for five minutes or that

John Dehlin [01:26:27] would be a masturbation rule. Right. No, no, I'm, I'm not kidding.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:26:30] I mean, well, we were. I don't think that they think girls can do that.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:33] So.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:26:34] No, but I mean, probably for the elders. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Well, no. Even like Jesse Hildebrandt, like, you know, we interviewed Jesse Hildebrandt. Yeah, Jody Hildebrandt. And Jody would tell her niece, timing the showers time in the bathroom. Tampons could be used, you know, to self pleasure, like really crazy things. I'm not. Don't people think I was making that up?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:26:55] No, no.

John Dehlin [01:26:55] It applies to women and men.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:26:56] I just never have thought about those rules in that way. I thought they were just not wanting to waste money on the missionaries by having long showers. But it's probably a little bit of both or this idea, too, of just

Margi Dehlin [01:27:08] kind of hyper discipline. Getting people accustomed to hyper discipline, hyper control over everything. So you become like, one with, you know.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:27:20] Yeah. And at that time, my parents were kind of going through a divorce, and that was very hard on me.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] And what's that like as a missionary to have your. Your parents getting divorced?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:27:31] It was. They weren't. They weren't getting divorced yet. It wasn't until I got home from my mission that it was kind of official, But I just got. You know, as a missionary, you don't really have much information besides the brief emails you get on Mondays.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:27:46] But at the time, I was living with a member couple that would argue all the time, and it was really hard on me because they would yell at each other, and we were just the little missionaries up in the house. Like, we have to live here. And you never want to complain as a missionary or make a fuss, but it would just really trigger, like, these memories of my parents fighting growing up, like, you know, this idea that they're kind of currently going through divorce. And I confided in my mission president, I am struggling with these people fighting.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:28:21] It's not a good living situation for me because when they fight, I really feel like I lose focus because it's very stressful for me. My mission president talked to their bishop.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Whoa.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:28:34] And asked the bishop to bring them in to ask if their marriage was okay. And so they one day come home and sit us down, and they're like, you tattled on us to the mission president. And we got in trouble with our bishop, and they laid into us, me and my companion. And I just remember being like, I have no other place to live but this. Like, I just, you know, as I always just have been the type of person that if someone's yelling at me, I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna take it. I have nothing to say in response. And I do think that they.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:13] I don't know if there's. That they moved the missionaries, but we sit. We stayed living there till I got transferred out of that area. So it was so awkward after that. And this, like, this idea that you have all these rules.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:26] You don't have your own space, you don't live, you don't have your own apartment. You're always being judged by the members with all these rules. They hear you showering, they're timing your showers. It was just. I felt like my whole mission, I never could quite feel free for even a moment. And you're with your companion 24. 7.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:45] Right.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:45] It's own. Add that to the list.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:47] I feel like that'll do it.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:50] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:50] I also lived on my mission with a hoarder, which was crazy, because I, you know, that they approve these living arrangements. The. There's an older mission couple that goes into the living arrangement and says, yes, this is. They do like a. You know, at least they check with the eyes. They say, okay, yep, we're okay. The missionaries can live here. But when I would get home with my companion, her whole house was just full of food storage. So, like, picture the door, you know, the doorway, two shelves at the door to our bedroom. So, like, the upstairs was, like, just lots of magazines. But then once you go down the stairs, it's just, like, shelving of food all the way to our door, and it's super dirty and dusty food.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:30:40] And like, it was all from, like, 1978 or 1983 or 1962. Like, she had been keeping this food and amassing this food for decades. And I lived in a hoarder's house for six months because. And this was after I had complained about the previous couple, and I was like, I'm not complaining again, that did not go well for me. And so I. That was my last mission area, was living in that person's house. And she just had a mental illness. She was pretty elderly. You know, it wasn't. I think she was just trying to be kind and give the missionaries a place to stay. But, like, I don't hold her accountable for other people saying, yes, we certify that missionaries can stay here, and that that's okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:31:27] And so I just had added to the list of, like, these experiences from my mission of just feeling, like, totally out of control of my own destiny or life and just at the hands of trying to be as good of a missionary as I could be under these conditions of, like, massive amounts of stress. And I don't know, it just. It was. It was really hard. But then they tell you missionary missions are supposed to be really hard. So you're like, I'm being perfected by this.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:03] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:32:03] So you. Even if it's hard, you. You're like, it's supposed to be hard. And if I say it's too hard, I'm not faithful enough.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:11] You're sanctified by the adversity.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:32:14] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:15] And holding out maybe for blessings.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:32:19] Yeah. Maybe someday the blessings or maybe the blessing is just that I learn how to be strong.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:25] Right. Right.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:32:26] I don't want to be strong though.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] Yeah. So by the time you're done with your 18 month mission in Colorado, how are you feeling about yourself? How are you feeling about the church? Did you experience depression on your mission? Did it kind of go away during your mission?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:32:43] I, I think I did experience it some. I, I did have a few phone calls with a therapist. It wasn't too, it never was too bad though. I think I was so focused on trying to be a good missionary that I wasn't. I was really trying to push away any thoughts that I felt like were going to make me feel more depressed. I think I probably was depressed but not willing to admit it to myself in the same ways that I had been willing to admit it to myself in the past.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:33:14] And then this is. So I said there's three, three moments. The first was the Italy story. The, the second is I had dated this guy before my mission and I really liked him and I was kind of feeling distracted. You know, you're not supposed to get distracted by romantic feelings as a missionary. And so I prayed as a missionary and you know, at what point in your life are you more consecrating yourself to the Lord than as a missionary? And so I felt like if the Lord gives me revelation on my mission, I've got to be reading that revelation really well because when have I ever been this holy?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:33:56] And I got this really strong feeling that I was going to marry this guy. And I felt like, okay, I'm getting this feeling because God wants to tell me, like, it's okay for you to be thinking about this during your mission because this is your future spouse and that's very important. So I was like, okay, I'm going to keep writing this person. I'm going to keep kind of thinking about this as like, you know, and I really started to be like, I'm going to marry this person. And I've even told my companions, like I got, I got a revelation I'm going to marry him. And which sounds so silly now.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:34:29] And I met my husband after my mission. So I, when I got back, I hung out with this guy a few times and it was like not jiving. And it was just. And you know, it's not like anything really happened. It was just like it fizzled out because we hadn't seen each other for several years because he served a mission, I served a mission. But more, more than anything, it was just like I, I received revelation I was going to marry this person and now I'm not really that I'm not really that interested in him. He's not really that interested in me. There's nothing here.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:35:07] How do I. What do I do with this? What do I do with the second time where I received this? What I felt like was a very massive, life altering revelation. Like the revelation you're gonna marry someone that feels like it should be the most sacred revelation God can give a woman.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:35:27] But it was wrong. And I didn't marry that person. I married someone I met, you know, six months after my mission. So I think that that was my second point of just feeling like I had received really absolute, clear, a clear prompting on something very definitive. And then objectively, that thing did not come true.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:52] Yeah.

Coming Home and Shaken Testimony

John Dehlin [01:35:55] So you get home from your mission. How's your, so your testimony? You've got a second blow to your epistemology around Holy Ghost and Confirmation. But in terms of the church's truth claims and your commitment to the church.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:36:11] I think I got more depressed after my mission than I did during my mission because I felt almost that same repeating of the experience of getting baptized where on my mission I was pure, I was holy, I was consecrated. And then when I came home, I watched TV and I felt like I'm a bad person again. And I just started getting a lot more.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:36:37] I had so much more guilt after my mission because it felt like I had been able to tell myself that I was committing my life to the most beautiful cause imaginable. And once I returned from my mission, I was just going to school and that was so boring and plain and uninspired by comparison that I just, I felt really empty because it felt like I had been so fulfilled by this, like, this message. I had been able to tell myself I'm, I'm the best, you know, I'm a really good missionary. I'm consecrating my life to the Lord. And then now I, since I can no longer tell myself that message, it became.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:37:17] I just got, I felt guilty. I felt like I didn't really want to date people initially. I didn't want to watch tv. I made up. I. I have in my journal. So I made up all these new rules for myself. Like, kind of like missionary rules. I think a lot of people do this. They're like, let me recreate the mission for myself. Because they, it's probably like OCD thing. Like, I miss the structure. I miss the absolute surety that I'm a good person. I miss the structure of religious purity.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:37:47] And so after my mission and I lost that. I really tried, I think especially in the first like three or four months. Like, I was really trying to recreate that because I just wanted to feel close to my purpose with God again.

Scrupulosity, Marriage, and Mixed Faith

John Dehlin [01:38:04] Is it. Would it make sense to introduce the term scrupulosity as it relates to your story? There are a lot of people earlier in this episode hearing you talk about your story and saying, sounds like scrupulosity.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:38:17] Do you think about technical diagnosis?

John Dehlin [01:38:18] It is, yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:38:19] So I've never been diagnosed with that, which is why I've never. But probably mostly because I had a Mormon therapist. I don't know if a Mormon therapist. Maybe they would. I don't know, we could talk about

Margi Dehlin [01:38:30] just even having some characteristics.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:38:33] Yeah, I definitely would say I. I've been, you know, I would say definitely have anxiety, definitely have depression as far as scrupulosity goes, because I've never been, like, ident.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:43] Diagnosed.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:38:44] Diagnosed with that. I've never said that. That's a For sure thing. I have. I think I definitely, if. If nothing else, had very clear indications of a tendency towards that.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] And for those. I like to mention it as a way to educate people because every year when I mention it, there's a whole new wave of listeners that's like, whoa, I had that. Or, oh, I have that. So it's important. Psychoeducation. Scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder or religious ocd. So some people wash their hands with ocd, some people count, some people hoard. Hoarding is a form of ocd, it turns out there's, you know, safety ocd, Checking lights, flipping. Flipping light switches, that sort of thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:27] Relationship.

John Dehlin [01:39:28] Relationship ocd. But. But when you have hyper religiosity, hyper concern around moral purity, around honesty, hyper confessing with the priesthood leader, those are all signs of something called scrupulosity, which is OCD with a religious lens. And so I just wanted to. You're getting back for your mission. It sounds like you're like, where's the purity? Where's the purity?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:39:54] Yeah, I think I definitely had that growing up, but I don't think I had the words.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:40:00] To describe it or to. To communicate it to the. To the therapists.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:06] I did see.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:40:08] So I got back to my mission. I met my husband.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:13] He.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:40:15] And I think. I think meeting him and having some convert. A lot of the early conversations in our relationship were probably the first times that I started to. I don't think I was questioning yet, but I think I was starting to become nuanced. I think I meet a lot of Mormons who even self identify as Nuanced Mormons. And to me, almost 90% of the time, that is code for come back in a year because I'm going to be out of the church, because the nuance, I think you can stay in forever as a nuanced Mormon. But it seems to me that a lot of people who begin to become nuanced, it's because they're starting to break down some of these previously held, very rigid beliefs.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:41:03] So when we were first dating, he, we were, we were talking and for, for some reason we brought, I think, I don't know, somehow gay marriage got brought up. And I very confidently said, I think being gay is fine, but I just don't think gay people should be able to get married. And this was pre gay marriage legalization too.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] So. Pre250.15.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:41:30] Yeah. And I just remember. And he served a mission, too. He served his mission in Sweden. And so, you know, I'm checking the box like, you're a good candidate for me to date because you check the Mormon boxes. But he said, why do you think your religion should be used to keep other people from having rights?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:41:53] And I just felt my jaw drop on the floor because I just, I. I don't think I expected to have to defend my obviously bigoted opinion to another Mormon. I think I, I assumed with Jackson, especially when you're first dating, that I could just spout whatever Mormon thing it is that Mormons say and that he would say, yes, that's, you know, we're on the same page here. And I, you know, kind of tumbled over my words or. And was just like, well, it's. And I couldn't really defend it. I, I felt like his defense of gay marriage was compelling enough that I felt like the Mormon argument against it just fell flat.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:42:42] And it was the first time, I think it was the first time I'd ever have a Mormon disagree with me about something like that. A Mormon who was like, I mean, he had a, he had a good calling. He served a mission. He was in church all three hours. He was doing all of the Mormon things. But he was like, I don't think you should be anti gay marriage. That doesn't make sense. And that level of kind of pushing back was, I think, why I fell in love with him. Which was very confusing at the time because I felt like when he said that, I legitimately was like, I should break up with him.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:43:20] No good Mormon danger. Yeah. But at the same time, in the same way that I had felt meh about the Book of Mormon and loved all these Classic literature books. Growing up, I felt compelled by what he was saying. This, this argument for logic and for reason and for compassion, that didn't exist within Mormonism. And I think the self within me, that has always been within me felt really connected with that. And, and a lot of other times that he, you know, we had a lot of conversations one. Another one was like, he said that sex education should be comprehensive and not just abstinence based.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:44:05] And I was like, no good Mormon says that either. Where are you getting these crazy ideas? Abstinence only. Sex education is the way to go. And he, he said, you know, I think it's healthier for kids or for teens, you know, to have some sort of understanding how their body works and how to prevent pregnancy and how to prevent STDs. And it was another dumbstruck moment where I just was like, I don't, I. I don't know how to respond to this because I've never heard these arguments before.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:44:38] I've never had to, like, wrestle with this idea. These ideas he's, you know, he's kind of throwing at me. And so do you know if at

John Dehlin [01:44:48] the time he was challenging you or educating you, if he had lost his faith or if he was just a faithful Mormon that saw a couple things differently.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:44:57] Yeah, his mom left the church when she was really young, and he, his parents got divorced and he spent time going back and forth between the two. So I think having a mom that was not a member for most of, you know, they got divorced when he was 2 or 3. So his entire upbringing, he was seeing an example of a person who is no longer in the church, drinking a glass of wine occasionally, maybe talking about some of these aspects of sex, you know, sex education, gay marriage, like, things that if both of his parents were Mormon, maybe he wouldn't have heard. And so I think he is maybe in the similar category as my dad, where he just had been exposed to a lot more viewpoints.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:45:43] And I think, I don't know. I wish he was here. I wish you were here, Jackson. I don't think he would say he was truly struggling with his faith at that point, but I also think he's always been the type of Mormon that's like, I love the community here.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:46:00] I like the people I meet. I like having a community to participate in, and this is my cultural community. So I wouldn't say, I don't think if he was here, he would say that at that point he was actively questioning as much as he just grew up in a part member family and had a more complex view of the

Margi Dehlin [01:46:23] world than I did, which really, like, that's differentiation. Like, he honestly grew up with different perspectives and loved people. Loved people with different. Like your parents. So can I just say, when you were describing talking with Jackson and having those conversations and how you hit a point where you're like, wait, that. That's not according to script. You're off script. It reminded me of Truman Show a little bit. Just how he, like, always is going. Like, every day he goes out and everyone has the same response. And then it starts to, like, veer. And all of a sudden you're like, wait a second.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:47:03] Yeah, that's not how.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:05] And it is like that in Mormonism. Like, you ask a question, but you're not really asking a question. What you're asking is for the preset answers that everyone knows that' when people don't. It's like, it's like that moment in Truman show where it's like, wait a

Alyssa Grenfell [01:47:18] second, what's going to do with this? Like, my reality is what's going on

John Dehlin [01:47:23] with my reality right now.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:47:26] Well, especially being in Provo, being at byu, it just felt like I had been on so many dates with so many guys, and I know that if I had said gay marriage is bad to any of those guys, they would have said, yes, ma'. Am. I agree. And I don't like gay people either. Like, I just feel like meeting this person who was at once Mormon and at the same time not Mormon was really very Truman Showy and very. And I think why I wanted to. I fell in love with him because he was not a parrot. He was not just parroting back. You know, I know the church is true. I know the church is true. I love the temple. I love the temple, too. He was actively engaging with me on ideas and presenting things that were off script but still really interesting and felt

John Dehlin [01:48:22] really compelling, which is also very dangerous for a Mormon testimony. It was dangerous for sure, really quickly. I'm just going to do a quick plug for this book. Today is the day that Alyssa Grenfell is releasing this wonderful new book, how to Leave the Mormon Church. I was honored enough to write forward for it, but we put the link to this book in the description. And this is a book. It's a great gift for people who are going through hard stuff. It's a really good guide for those of you who are trying to find your way.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] I really think this is a book that's going to do really well. So I just want to let everyone know about it. Please get it. Please show your support and get it for anyone you need. We're going to be covering the book tomorrow in a second episode. 10 tips on leaving the Mormon Church. Not for everyone, just for those who feel like it's what they need to do. So. All right, so you meet Jackson. He's starting to rock your world. How long between meeting him and getting married?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:49:23] I think we knew each other for about six months before we got engaged and then married another six months. So.

John Dehlin [01:49:30] Wow, full year. That's actually a little long.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:49:33] And I was 23, so I was an old maid. And we really made sure we knew each other before we tied the knot. And I. I also. I feel like we had some other. We had a funny moment. I always think it's funny just thinking about Jackson's personality, but there was a time where we were making out and I felt like we went too far. And I was like, jackson, I think I need to confess to the bishop. And just to be clear, it was just like over the clothes. It was not like it was stuff that most people do.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:10] We're not in the bishop's office now, Alyssa. No need.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:50:14] No need. No. I felt like it was so important to me to save myself from marriage, so. But yeah, I still. But even over the clothes touching, I was like, I need to confess this to the bishop. And he was like, you know, I prayed about it, and I don't think I need to confess it to the bishop. And I remember being like, that feels like you can do that. By Mormon logic, it checks out. But that feels way easier than talking to the bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:41] That was like, option F. There's an

Alyssa Grenfell [01:50:44] option F. I think he was just like, I don't want to talk to the bishop about this. And I was like, I have to, because I have religious scrupulous.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:53] Scrup.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:50:54] I've always struggled with that word. Scrupulosity. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] So did you talk to the bishop?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:50:59] I did, yeah. He said it was fine.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:01] He said.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:01] He said, you guys are engaged, so just don't do anything more till you're married. So he. I. I never had a bishop really grill me on stuff like that in a way that was it, like a one on one inappropriate. So I'm very lucky in that regard.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:17] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:18] So we got married in the temple. We got married in the temple. Pacin Temple.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:24] So where he's from.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:25] No, it was so random.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:26] We.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:27] I really wanted to get married in the city center temple because it's very pretty, but it wasn't ready. And I think that. I think The Pacing Temple Provo.

John Dehlin [01:51:36] What's City Center?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:37] City isn't. Oh, it's not City Center. What's the one city. No, the. That's City center mall is. What is the mall? I haven't lived here in a long time.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] Are you talking about Provo or.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:47] I'm talking about the. The temple that's in downtown Provo.

John Dehlin [01:51:51] Okay. It was the old library or whatever that's been converted into a. Yeah, I

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:56] thought that was called the City Center.

John Dehlin [01:51:57] It probably is.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:58] It probably is. Sorry we're not up to speed on.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:02] We were all a little far behind. We left you hanging

John Dehlin [01:52:06] the one down.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:08] Yeah, I want. So they were completing the work on the Provo downtown temple and it was going to be another six months and we couldn't wait.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] So it's right by the encircle House.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:19] Yes.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:19] Is it called the City Center Temple? Okay. So I. The Payson Temple had just recently been dedicated at the point of the wedding. So we were like, it's a beautiful temple. All temples are the same. Anyways. And my wedding day was so.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:41] I just hate how the church does batch. You know, you're on the conveyor belt. I was hurried on my own wedding day. The idea of being rushed, they're like, there's another bride coming through in 10 minutes. So your wedding is. Your wedding is important, but not important in the way that you want it to be. It's important eternally for Mormonism. So I hated wearing the temple clothes. They did not allow me to wear my wedding dress because it was too cream. Even though. Really, you can look at my website. It's the widest dress imaginable. But they. They at the pace and temple, at least. I don't know if they still do this, but they hold a piece of computer paper up against your dress. They really did this to me.

John Dehlin [01:53:23] Wow.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:24] And they said, your dress is not white enough. You have to change into.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:27] It's for color.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:29] Why didn't I. It was.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:30] I mean, my. My dress was super modest, you know, totally garment covering, but it was not white enough.

John Dehlin [01:53:38] I've never heard of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:39] Me either.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:40] Maybe. I. I do think other people online have shared that that's happened. I can imagine.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] We're not saying something that we don't realize is the Mormon Church is getting more conservative in many ways than it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:54] Yeah. It's like more conservative and more liberal at the same time. It just depends on the thing.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] The thing.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:54:00] So I had to change into a different dress. I Had to change to my temple robes. We did the patriarchal grip across the altar. The officiant mispronounced my name, didn't even know my name. We said the yes, because you don't get to say I do, and walked out, took pictures, and, you know, it was still a very happy day. It's your wedding. So even though there were all of these Mormon frustrations and annoyances, I was very happy and. And very happy to be with my. The love of my life, Jackson. I'm, you know, still with him. And I. I am grateful at least to Mormonism for bringing him into my life. But, yeah, we got married and that. We got married in Chris in the Winter. And then that August is when I first started my first year of teaching, which is where everything really hit the fan.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:00] Oh.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:55:00] As far as my testimony goes, that was where. That's where the breakdown really started to happen.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] Is high school English or.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:55:08] Yes, ninth grade in American Fork.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] Oh, American Fork.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:11] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:55:12] And I've had. Actually, I've had a surprisingly large amount of my students reach out to me through TikTok and be like, sorry, or like, I left the church or, you know, just. Just share nice messages because I've talked quite a bit about teaching on my account, but it was kind of brutal.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:30] You had some brutal moments.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:55:32] Yeah, I. I feel like I just. From the beginning to the end, it was such an awful experience. And if you remember, I received a blessing that I was supposed to be an English teacher, and I dedicated four years of my degree to that, and I never questioned. And I.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:55:52] I was just not cut out for it. I have pretty bad anxiety. I'd have really bad anxiety attacks in the morning. A lot of the kids at the school didn't like me because I think I was young. I was still only 23, and I wouldn't. I had a no phones policy. And then I would also teach things that a lot of the kids would not like. So I, at one point, I talked about gay marriage or like, I think, you know, the New York Times has all these articles for English teachers to use that are like, compare and contrast or, you know, perspectives. So I picked one that was a perspective that I had actually been given in my multicultural class at byu.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:56:38] So I was like, I'll use the. This is from byu. I'll use it in my class. And the kids were saying, you know, we don't think gay marriage should be a thing. And one of the kids used. I. I heard the slur F a G constantly in that school.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:56:56] And there was A group of kids who would wait till I was doing silent reading and they would come bang on my door and they would film it on Snapchat and like run away and film my reaction. And at one point, a kid threw a smoke bomb under my door and the administration just really did do anything to help.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:16] And I.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:57:16] So I'd have all these things happening and I'd have just.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:20] Didn't they leave you notes too?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:57:22] Yeah. So. Well, the notes was when I was teaching a book about Emmett Till, who is a 14 year old boy.

John Dehlin [01:57:30] Should we do the LGBT thing before we do the Emmett Till story?

Margi Dehlin [01:57:33] Yes.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:57:34] Yeah. So the. I had one student who was a really good student and he. The first essay I ever gave it was supposed to be a five paragraph essay. And he wrote his essay about why students shouldn't have to write essays, which was really clever. And it was about how the essay isn't a good measure of intelligence. And I just found it. It was very clever and very engaging.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:58:08] And I gave him a really good grade on it. And his mom called me and she was kind of tearing up and she said that that was the most positive thing that had happened to him that school year because he'd been facing a lot of bullying.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:58:22] And a period of time later when I was walking into my classroom after hallway duty, I saw all these kids, probably three or four boys, like, calling this boy that had written the essay fag and laughing at him and pointing at him. And these are the same kids that had seminary before my class.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:58:48] So they, like, would be still holding. You see, in Utah schools, all the kids are holding their little quads and just something about kids with quads on their desks bullying this kid. And I don't know if this kid was gay. I have no idea.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:59:03] But later that year, his. He just stopped coming to school. And I found out through another teacher that this student had attempted suicide and had. That the parents decided to take him out of the school and go somewhere else. I don't know where they went because it was not a good, obviously, situation for him. And

John Dehlin [01:59:31] sometimes when the LGBT youth suicide epidemic is brought up to Mormons, they try and say it's the altitude or they try and say it's, it's guns or whatever. In, in your experience, could you see, did you get to experience reasons why a Mormon LGBT youth in Utah might consider that option? Is that.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:59:58] Yeah, I feel like all. I mean, the kids in class when I am giving an assignment about gay people are saying, I don't like gay people. I don't think gay people are good. I think being gay is a sin. I think gay people shouldn't be able to get married.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:00:15] And if you're a gay kid hearing that not just at church, but now at school and from your parents and, and if you're. And if that gay kid is like me, where I, all I wanted to do was be good, I didn't. You know, I'm guessing these, these kids who are gay, they. All they want to do is pray, pray the gay away, like keep it. You know, I, I think that they desperately want to not be gay, but everything in them is saying that they are. And they have to face this really horrible and awful reality, which is that this feeling that they're feeling is from the devil.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:00:58] In the same way I felt like my body was immoral as well. And it demonizes and, and to keep it a secret and keep it inside and be, you know, as religious as possible and be as, you know, good as possible. And I just, I think it creates one of the most damaging.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:01:21] You know, I think for a gay kid to grow up in Utah is horrible, especially in ultra Mormon areas, because the church is explicit about gay, gay gayness, same sex attraction, being gay. It is wrong. And they might say, we still love gay people, but that's just a way for them to dismiss the obligation to confront what they do to gay people. We love gay people, but we hate everything about them if they act on it.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:01:57] It's. I just, I think that to me, to me, what gay kids have to go through and what little girls have to go through are the two biggest evils of the church currently. That little girls are told that they matter less than boys and that all they should think about is marriage. And that gay kids are told, this feeling that you're feeling makes you inherently sinful and makes you bad and you will never be able to get rid of it through prayer, unfortunately, you know,

John Dehlin [02:02:28] and I want to validate all that and I don't want to compete in the Trauma Olympics, but I think young boys being told if they masturbate, they're evil and they can't and they can't not masturbate. I think, I think that's a trifecta of everybody.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:02:42] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] No one escapes.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:44] And also people of color and like, as it turns out, there are a lot of people outside this. There's a lot of trauma of.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:02:51] Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that it's very easy to see the smiling family of Mormon that Mormonism often presents and say, hey, Mormonism is really Good. It's good for families. It's good for all these people. You know, look. Look at all these people who are blessed by this in their lives. But if you look underneath the surface and look at the racism, look at the sexism, look at the homophobia underneath this smiling veneer of happy families, you'll see kids trying to kill themselves and kids hating themselves for the color of their skin or being teased for the color of their skin, or girls who are told not to dress XYZ because it makes them a slut.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] I'm getting a comment from Just Kidden. She writes, I guess she says, john, boys and girls. And what she means by that is masturbation. Yeah. Yeah. Really quickly, Gerardo's wanting me to ask you if you have any insight. A new emerging Mormon apologetic around the LGBT youth suicide epidemic in Utah is that Mormon LGBT youth in Utah have better mental health outcomes than non Mormon LGBT youth in Utah. Do you have any. I'm putting you on the spot here. Do you have any theory on why, as bad as an experience of Mormon LGBT youth might have in Utah, they fare better than non Mormon LGBT youth?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:04:27] I might want to say I would have to, like, see the study that that information came from and who conducted that study, because it feels to me to be like, what was the sample size? What was this a church sponsored study? I can. I don't know what this. I don't know where that information is coming from. I just know from my anecdotal experience

Margi Dehlin [02:04:52] that

Alyssa Grenfell [02:04:54] gay kids do not feel like they belong in the same way that their heterosexual friends belong in the country.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] You're saying Mormon gay kids in Utah?

Margi Dehlin [02:05:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] Yeah. I mean, one theory is that they have community. You know, Mormon gay kids at least have their youth groups. They have mutual. They have scouts, they have community. And maybe these other non Mormon kids are isolated and rejected because they're not Mormon from all the Mormon kids. And they don't have the. They don't necessarily have the community and the friends.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:25] So maybe they're just more ice.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:26] It's so complicated, isn't it? Because the more you're participating in a community that tells you you're sinful, the more you're getting the messages that to belong, you're viewed as sinful. I don't know. Feels complicated.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] Yeah. Okay. Well, so that's a brutal. Those are. Those are some brutal experiences. What others.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:05:51] And yeah, the other one was when I was teaching about racism. And to be clear, a lot of critics say, why are you teaching about racism in an English class, there is a required amount of nonfiction reading students have to do. They're actually supposed to read more nonfiction. When I was a teacher in Utah, more nonfiction than fiction because it's supposed to prepare them for stem. So I was reading a nonfiction book with them, which was about Emmett Till.

John Dehlin [02:06:20] And how could you not read books about racism in high school English class? Like To Kill a Mockingbird? Like, you gotta read these things.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:06:28] I mean, people get to be a human.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:29] It is reality.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:06:30] People get frustrated. I mean, that's. There's all these bills in Florida to keep people from talking about racism. Anything to do with transphobia or racism, because they want to remove it from the curriculum because they say it's activism. So it's. I think, a real critique of teachers teaching history is that's you're teaching about critical race theory.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] That's so weird. Like, I remember reading Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail, like, learning about Gandhi. Like, that's part of a high school education. Civil rights movement. Right.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:07:02] Yeah. I think it's very politicized now to teach, especially I think, with the Trump era and with, I think all of these governors trying to show, like, who's the most Republican. I. I think that that's leading to a lot of these types of laws that are coming to into effect. Even about teaching about gender in schools, teaching about race in schools. They're saying it's. That should be taught at home or that's activism. That's critical race theory, when really it's actually just the story of Emmett Till is history. It's also about racism, obviously. But you can't say teaching a history book is. The English teacher is acting out of activism to try to coerce her teach her students into becoming crazy liberals. When you're reading a book that's about history.

John Dehlin [02:07:56] So really quickly, I have Republican listeners, and we are never here favoring one party over another. And we're certainly not saying that Republicans are racist. I'm a registered Republican in Utah for my own set of reasons, but please don't ever feel like we're throwing that on anyone just because we want everyone to feel welcome. But anyway, not that you. No, no. You didn't do anything. I'm just making sure people know we don't pick sides in that way, in a just purely partisan way. So what was it? Do you want to give the quick summary of the Emmett Till story? And then, you know.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:08:32] Yeah, just. So he was. He was. They said that he was whistling at a white woman. She said that he was Whistling at her.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] It was like 1955, like a teenage kid, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:08:43] Yeah, Chicago, 14. And so she went home and told her husband, basically he gathered up a bunch of other men, they kidnapped him and murdered him. And they, when they found his body, his mom decided to do an open casket funeral.

John Dehlin [02:09:04] He had been like chained, a washing machine or something.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:06] It was really horrible and like sunk

John Dehlin [02:09:08] down to the bottom.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:09] He'd been in the water for a long. His body had been in the water for. It was. Yeah, it was very. His body was very deteriorated and abused.

John Dehlin [02:09:17] And you said the mom did the open casket. Why?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:20] Yes. So she wanted to do an open casket, which is why it got in the national news. Because she wanted to show what these men had done to her 14 year old son. And that to me is very powerful choice.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:35] And I felt like it's in the book. The picture of the open casket funeral was in the book we were reading. But also I think to honor that idea that she had to share this horrible thing that had happened.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:49] So we did like a, it's called a gallery walk in my classroom. So we walked around. So you put different artifacts around the classroom and kids have sticky notes and they're supposed to go around. So it might be like a, something to do with, you know, Jim Crow laws. It might be something to do with some historic document.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:10:11] It was a picture of Emmett Till. Other things relating to the case that ensued after this happened. And I, as it was happening, I was here. I heard some laughter from the, the area of the classroom that was where the picture was of the open casket.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:10:31] And I, I like looked over, I didn't. It's quieted. And so I walked over after. As I'm kind of walking through the classroom and I see that at the picture there are notes that are basically mocking the picture.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:10:52] The one one was said, ha ha, there was a smiley face and one that said he looks like a hamburger. And I just took the, the notes off and I was just staring at them, just not even, not even knowing what to do, like how, how to respond as a 23 year old in her first months of teaching, how to respond to this very obvious display of horrible racism, but also like complete lack of empathy. And I turned around and just was like, what, what is wrong with you?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:11:35] What are you. Why? Who did this? And everyone was obviously very, you know, quiet. I, I don't, I don't know who did. Wasn't obvious to me at the time. Maybe if it happened to me now, I would have been able to tell.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:11:49] But I I just felt like. I remember thinking that if that had been. If this had been a walk about, a gallery walk about Joseph Smith's death and it had been a picture of Joseph Smith, that there's no way that those kids would have reacted that way. They would have had the most solemn, serious, you know, respect for this experience.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:12:19] And I also, throughout teaching the book, I had kids say, like, racism doesn't exist, or, I don't want to learn about this anymore. This is pointless. Or I don't. I don't think we need to talk about this in school.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:12:31] And I think just. I think between that experience and the having a kid, having one of my students attempt suicide and having these students rolling smoke bombs under my door, I just. I felt like, first of all, teaching was not for me. I just didn't want to be a teacher. I felt like the only reason I was in there to begin with was because of this blessing from my father six years ago, you know, mission plus college.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:13:03] And I felt like what I was seeing was. I don't blame any of those kids. I just think that they are acting in the way that they've learned. I don't think a kid naturally is going to tease someone for being gay.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:13:22] I think that that's a value that's trained and a value that's inserted by a very Mormon culture. And so between that, between those two things, seeing these kids, seeing this experience and seeing. And just having these, like, awful experiences, having. And feeling like I am not cut out for teaching. I don't want to be doing this. I don't feel like this is what is right for me. I'm very unhappy. And I even became kind of suicidal, which I felt like was in large part because I was just so deeply unhappy. And I was showing up to work every day and having these experiences and feeling like I was so disconnected from my reality that I just had.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:14:16] I just felt like maybe the church, maybe God isn't. Maybe this is all made up. And it was. It was so scary. It was about, you know, it was maybe four months into teaching that I was just having another panic attack.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:14:36] And all I could think about was, maybe this isn't. Maybe God isn't leading me. Maybe all of this is just my gut telling me what to do and my dad trying his best and it's all made up. And it was so hard for me to face that because I. I just. I had dedicated. I, you know, I served a mission, I went to early morning seminary. I did everything that I was supposed to. And yet still, instead of having this, like, trial of an experience, which maybe I could write off, I was having an experience that was leading me to, like, thoughts of killing myself. And I don't know what loving heavenly father really does that to his daughter.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Yeah. And this is what, your first year or two of marriage?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:15:41] Yes, this was. This. We've probably been married. So that was. Yeah, it was about a year of marriage that. That I was. That was about a year into marriage that I started questioning personally. I. I hadn't told Jackson yet, but I was personally very, very much questioning.

Beginning to Question the Church

John Dehlin [02:16:00] So did you have anyone to confide in or talk to about your doubts, or did you feel alone in. In those?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:16:08] I think because Jackson had always been so nuanced, I felt like I felt okay with bringing my worry to him. And he had also been seeing me struggle with teaching all of, you know, throughout all this time, and seeing me come home and be so wrecked and so upset and so sad. And he. So I just. One night I just decided to tell him and I said, I don't know if the church. I don't even think it was about the church quite yet. I think it was about God. I think it was. I don't know if there really is a God because all these times that I've taken God at his word with my still small voice, it was wrong. And he was very loving.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:07] He was.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:17:08] You know, I feel so lucky. A lot of people say that to their spouses and the marriage.

John Dehlin [02:17:16] It's a deal killer.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:17:17] Yeah, he was really loving. He was really. He. He at the time said, I. I still believe in God. I still want to go to church, but I love you and I'm here for you, and I'm sorry you're going through this. And he was nothing but supportive. And I, you know, I wish everyone could have a Jackson when they leave the Mormon Church because I think having. Having someone to share that information with and having them reciprocate with love was really very powerful and very. Helped me feel safe in a moment that was the least safe moment of my life.

John Dehlin [02:18:04] And was that the end of it, or was that just the beginning of you questioning the church and figuring out a relationship with the church?

Margi Dehlin [02:18:10] Yeah, that was.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:18:11] I would say that was the beginning of what? The beginning of the end.

John Dehlin [02:18:14] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:18:18] I started.

John Dehlin [02:18:20] And again, this is eight years ago, nine years ago.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:18:22] Yeah, it's about, I guess, seven or eight years ago. This is it. The process played out over about a year, so it was over a longer period of time. But. Sorry, it's like It's a little hot.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] Oh, yeah. Okay. So, yeah. Do you want to take a break? Do you want to.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:18:43] Yeah, maybe I'll.

John Dehlin [02:18:44] Okay, yeah, I'll go ahead and I'll just say. While you take a quick break. Hey, Live stream. I was just gonna say I wonder. I. I was thinking about growing up in Utah myself. Sorry. Growing up in Texas myself. And when you. For those who are. Those of you who aren't Mormon and don't understand the dynamics, Utah is kind of considered Mormon Zion. So it's like the Mormon promised land. It's where the church is headquartered. It's where Brigham Young brought the Saints. It's where the prophet and the 12 apostles live. And so, like, if you are born and raised as a Mormon outside of Utah, it's almost like Dorothy living in Kansas but always dreaming about Oz.

John Dehlin [02:19:32] And so when you come to BYU or to Utah, it's like, whoa, I could attend general conference in person. And whoa, I may. You know, this is where the real Mormons are, and this is where the real Mormon families are. And this is where the most righteous of the righteous are. And I can get my most righteousness self fully actuated because I'm here in Zion. I'm here in the Lord's true state, Utah. Right. And so it's kind of like when Dorothy goes to Oz, Right? But then ultimately Dorothy goes to Oz and she sees the. She ultimately goes to see the wizard, but then she sees Toto running around and you know that there's a wizard behind the curtain.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] There's this idea of when Dorothy goes to Oz but then sees that Oz wasn't the wizard, you know, wasn't what she thought, and Oz wasn't what she thought. And I'm just wondering, and I don't mean to project this onto your story, Alyssa. And that was me filling space while she went to take a break.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] So please don't get mad at me for, like, injecting myself in her story. But I do wonder, was it weird to, like, grow up outside of the Zion curtain, as they say, Come to Utah thinking you're going to be swimming amongst the elite of the elite, true righteous Mormons. You're in Utah county of all places, teaching children of super righteous, multi generational Mormons and seeing all this bigotry. I don't know. I don't mean to be projecting that.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:21:06] No, yeah, I think. And yeah, I think seeing these kids and seeing how they acted, how they treated each other, how. How much. How rude they were to me, but also how rude they were and horrible they were to each other. And just feeling like, if this is the most Mormon population on the planet, which it is. Which it is. Utah county, this is the deepest, most Mormon you can get.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:21:35] And yet they are still so, so horrible to me, to each other. What does that mean about the church? What does that mean about how these children are being taught by their parents? And two, I think just having this feeling of. And even looking around and seeing other adults being, you know, I guess coping with it better and feeling like this is not for me, this is. I'm not suited for this. This is not in my disposition.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:22:08] I am more of an introvert. I think I just realized if this is what the church creates and if this is what my father's blessing brought me to, can I really logically continue to say that everything is the absolute truth as I've always believed it?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:22:33] And that really was the beginning of. And at the same time, and I think too I'd always used my testimony, my spiritual feeling, to feel compelled to be able to just get over Mormon history. If I learned about polygamy, if I learned about anything, I could say, well, I know the spirit bore witness to me that I have a testimony of Joseph Smith. I know that he was prophet of God. I know that Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:23:01] So you can confront. You can show me any history. I used to believe this on my mission. Show me any history. I don't care what it is. I still am going to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet because I had a feeling in my heart. Sorry. And that feeling told me very strongly that he's a prophet. So I. You could tell me anything about that.

John Dehlin [02:23:21] Man, I am titanium.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:23:23] Yeah. Doesn't matter what you tell me about Joseph Smith. I know he was a prophet of God because I felt it in my gut. And at this time that I was going through teaching, Jackson was taking the new. There was a new. At the time, they had changed the BYU religious curriculum to have a history class that had more I for they used to. He always called it Defense against the Dark Arts. I don't know what the actual word was or the actual name of the cloud class, but they had just incorporated some more like questionable church history to try to help.

John Dehlin [02:23:57] Wait, questionable or factual?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:23:59] Well, questionable in their eyes. Factual for everyone else that. And so he was going and he. They had like end of class project and he made this big graph of all of Joseph Smith's wives and how they were related to each other. The mother, sister pairs, the ones who were married to Other men. And he made this big infographic about it and he took it to his professor and he was asking him these questions about, you know, how is this, how is this graph God's plan? Can you explain it to me? Because I'm having a hard time seeing how Joseph marrying 14 year olds and Joseph Smith marrying the wives of other men being part of God's eternal plan.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:24:44] And the professor basically just said, I, I don't know the meaning of all things, but I know the Lord loves his children, you know, that little chestnut. And it was. And so he would go to this class and he'd come home and he'd be telling me, you know, here's what I learned in class today. We'd be reading some more. Of course, we discovered the CES letter. We read through that together really quick.

Discovering Troubling Church History

John Dehlin [02:25:10] I'm just going to show on the screen this infographic you're talking about just to our viewers and listeners. It's kind of intense, but it basically, yeah, I'm showing it just on the screen right here, but it just shows. It's kind of crazy because it's got complex seven wives under 18, you know, 14 year olds, 15 year olds, and it's got sister pairs and it's got mother daughter pairs and it's got the eight polyandrous marriages where he's. It's showing along the right, all the husbands who were living and mostly faithful in the church and then all of their wives that Joseph married. It's kind of an overwhelming infographic and it, and it ends at the bottom with 34, 34 wives.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:25:56] So, yeah, it really is very complex and interwoven how they all fit together.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:26:03] And so I think as I kind of was losing my faith or belief in a God or at least in a heavenly father, he was losing his faith or belief in Mormonism as an institution and as a religion.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:26:19] And we're kind of, you know, having all. We would just talk for hours and hours and hours. And it was kind of crazy too to realize how much we'd been holding back from each other. Even like me find. I think he was the first person I truly confessed to that I hated the endowment. Anyone else? Everyone else. I had always just said I loved it. It was so beautiful, you know, because that's what you're supposed to say. And I felt so unworthy or like lacking in faith that I didn't like it. And he was like, I didn't like it either. And I remember we, we told each other, I mean, he knew my new name, but he told me me his new name.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:27:02] And it was just a very triumphant moment to be like, now we're equals. I get to know your secret, you know mine. And we just had all of these conversations together, just talking through every single tiny little aspect of Mormonism, of our upbringing, of.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:27:21] And really just finally, after, like crazy, we'd known each other for two years, married for one, finally ready, at least, especially on my part, finally ready to be fully honest about all these times that I had lacked faith, which were actually times that I had realized Mormonism had a lot of problematic elements, but had felt like I lacked faith.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:27:47] And so finally being able to rebrand my lack of faith as the reality of. I think I have struggled to connect with this religion for a very, very long time. And it was. I always felt like it was a me problem, not an institutional problem or a faith based problem.

John Dehlin [02:28:09] Yeah, yeah. And you said rebrand, you recontextualize. Is that a good way to say it? Reframe. And there is this idea of blame reversal where an unhealthy organization, if things are going great, they get the credit. If things are going wrong, you get the blame. It's always back on you, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:28:27] Yes. And I bought that. So I swallowed it whole. Like, I really believed that. That I was always the one, that if I had a problem with the temple, if I had a problem with a mission rule, if I had a problem with sexuality or masturbation, or if I had a problem with any of these things elements or I didn't like how they were being discussed, I was just lacking in faith. And that is such powerful control. I feel like that element of how Mormonism taught me to view myself in that way, that it was my fault that controlled me for so long really

John Dehlin [02:29:09] quickly because I got a chance to read this book, how to Leave the Mormon Church, An Ex Mormon's Guide to Rebuilding After Religion, which I hope you all buy today or immediately. One of the things I loved about it was your candor, your courage to talk about really hard things. And so because you just brought it up and because I know it's in the book, you haven't talked about masturbation at all in terms of your experience. But because you bring it up in the book and because as my commenters are mentioning, it's not just a male thing, is there any part, like, was that even a part of your story at that point or not?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:29:48] I. Well, I would say I planned a lot for the book tomorrow to talk about that.

John Dehlin [02:29:53] Okay, so stay tuned.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:29:56] Cliffhanger.

John Dehlin [02:29:57] Okay. Good, good, good. Perfect.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:29:58] Stay tuned.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] Perfect.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:29:59] Because that's my. That's one of my main topics for tomorrow.

John Dehlin [02:30:02] Perfect.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:30:03] So let's. Let's save it.

John Dehlin [02:30:04] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:30:05] For tomorrow.

John Dehlin [02:30:07] Okay. So you're. You and Jackson are having this sort of like.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:30:11] Yeah. And I think it was probably took place over maybe three or four months where we were just having these conversations. He's bringing stuff home. I'm bringing stuff home. We're talking, talking, talking, texting. We find the ex woman subreddit. We're sharing memes with each other and links with each other. And I. I hit a Sunday where I woke up in the morning and I told him I can't go to church today. And he was, I think, pretty surprised. And he said, I still want to go to church.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] Well, he's a BYU student, so he has to.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:30:42] Well, he. So he was on this. So he doesn't have a degree. Basically. He was doing this, like, associates thing that was like. It's like the church institute thing. I don't know. It was like a special program. So he did technically have to have ecclesiastical endorsement, but because it lasts for a year, he didn't. That wasn't really part of the worry, essentially, but he did still genuinely want to go to church. So he went to church that Sunday, and I stayed home. Doom scrolling the ex Mormon subreddit. I would make it to the bottom of the ex Mormon subreddit. There'd be no new posts, and I'd just sit refreshing it every five minutes just to be like, is anyone else gonna say anything?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:31:24] Cause I, like, I would listen to anyone at this point. I just need more voices to support me right now. And he came home. He came home. We talked. Next Sunday, I woke up. I felt the same way. I'm not going to church. I can't do it. I just think I started to feel like I cannot keep going to this church. I do not believe it's true. I feel so gross inside when I'm there. And then the third Sunday, I felt like I need to try again. I need to just give it one I needed. I almost didn't even see it as one final chance, but that I was willing.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:31:59] I was ready to try again. Like, maybe something will be different. Maybe I'll feel edified by this experience of going to church. And so we went together that Sunday and he. We. We both didn't take the sacrament, but we were still sitting in church.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:32:17] And I just, still. I just felt like a liar. I just felt like by being in that church, I was participating in a lie. And I was show, like, almost like I was pretending to be a member when I felt like I wasn't. And I just felt like it was an. It was a lie. It was immoral almost for me to be participating at all.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:32:41] And I made it through sacrament meeting in Sunday school and I went to Relief Society. And in what I feel like was kind of ironic, the woman was like, we don't have. Nobody planned a lesson for today. So instead of doing a lesson, we're all going to bear testimonies about Joseph Smith.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:33:01] Which the idea to, I think most people outside of Mormonism that you would have an entire hour dedicated to bearing your testimony about Joseph Smith. Not about God, not about Jesus, but about Joseph Smith. It's kind of wild. But she had the photo of Joseph Smith that we all know up on the lectern. She sat down and everyone starts getting up and.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:33:23] And I just felt it was so frustrating because everyone was saying it was just this. Everyone saying the same thing, same testimony over and over and over again. And someone read the words of praise to the man and someone cried and read the quote about how nobody except for Jesus has done more on this planet except for Joseph Smith.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:33:43] And there was not one drop of the word polygamy. And no one talked about. Like I had been researching and learning all this stuff with Jackson, all this stuff about Joseph Smith that despite two decades in the church, I never knew.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:34:01] And we're having an hour long conversation about Joseph Smith and none of these things are even hinting at entering the conversation. And once again, I just felt like this is just a lie. I just feel like it's so.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:34:18] This is such a whitewashed version of reality. And it was very Truman Showy also in that moment. And as I was sitting there, I was thinking about how on my mission I used to always tell people that if you don't have a testimony, that a testimony is found in the bearing of it. And so I, I very authentically and hopefully said I will bear my testimony right now because I, maybe if I bear my testimony, I will find it again. And maybe this is, this is my opportunity. And so I stood up and I looked around and I just said I'd like to bear my testimony.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:35:04] And that I know that even though Joseph Smith was a polygamist and that he married people under 18, that I have felt good feelings about him in the past. And because I felt good feelings about him, that must mean that he is a prophet of God and that those things don't matter because God chose him as a prophet in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:35:35] And I sat down and I. I like, I just so desperately hoped that I would have some epiphany, some revelation, some angel, anything. And I looked up and looked around, and instead it was just the eyes of every single woman in the room staring at me like, what is wrong with you? Why are you talking about that?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:36:05] And the Relief Society president had been saying thank you to everyone after they had finished bearing their testimony. And she didn't say thank you to me. She stood up and she just launched into her own. Just Mormony. Most Mormon testimony. Repair of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] Damage control.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:26] That's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:36:28] Impassioned. It had all the right things. And I sat there for a few moments, a few more minutes, just like, waiting, just like. Almost paralyzed by just the frustration and almost just feeling like this is the final moment. This is the moment where I have to.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:36:50] I chose to wear my garments, and now this is another crossroads where I can't do this anymore. And after a few minutes, I stood up and I left. And I didn't really expect anyone to follow me, but still no one did. And I think at the time, I was almost disappointed, not because I thought that people were ready to confront this information about Joseph Smith, but almost hopeful that someone would care enough to, you know, someone who bears their testimony about Justice Smith and polygamy and then leaves a few minutes later. You've got to. You got to wonder about that person. But nobody followed me. And I sat in the car till Jackson was drums priesthood. And that was my last time I ever was in a Mormon church.

John Dehlin [02:37:36] Oh.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:37:37] To this day, except for a wedding, which, you know, can't get away from the weddings. But no. Yeah, that was my. I've never attended a worship service. I've been asked, but I. I feel like I can't do it. I just. I mean, I probably could now. I'm. I'm away from it enough that it doesn't feel so visceral, but I wouldn't go in unless I was really forced to because. Because I just. I.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:38:08] It's almost maybe the opposite of how I used to feel about the church, where I was, like, so compelled by it. And now it's. I think it's just a dark place for me when I talk to active members and I see them bearing their testimony or sharing things in the way that I used to.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:38:28] And it makes me feel. It makes me feel sad about my past for how much I gave to Mormonism, and it makes me feel sad for them for Potentially being caught up in this very dogmatic. Religion that is so all encompassing that there is a right response for everything. There is a right way to be for everything. There is a.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:38:59] It's just, I think. I think interfacing with going to church, interfacing with members, I struggle sometimes because I see myself so much in it and I see my past so much in it. And it's like, it is a bit physically painful for me to have to confront that part of myself that used to loom so large.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:21] It's so disorienting because on the one hand, our Mormon brain is like, man, the Mormon Church created Alyssa. Like, what's not to love about the Mormon Church? This is a delightful, thoughtful, moral, ethical, human, whatever church created this human thumbs up to that church. Like, that's one part of what my Mormon brain does. And the other part of my, let's say my ex Mormon brain. It's like, yeah, you just listed bigotry, racism, LGBTQ oppression to the point of people wanting to die by suicide. Sexual messages to both boys and girls, men and women, that are extremely damaging. Teaching women that they're less than sexual shame and.

John Dehlin [02:40:06] And just the general. Not teaching the truth about the history and perpetuating whitewashed falsities about the history, not to mention the coercion and the undue influence of the leaders on the members. Like, in my brain, it's this beautiful Truman show amazing reality and this super dark, toxic, damaging thing at the same time, you know?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:40:36] Yeah, yeah, it's very.

John Dehlin [02:40:37] Is it that way for you or not? Maybe it's just the latter.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:40:41] It's probably now just more the latter. But. But I think I've heard the argument that Mormonism brings a lot of good into the world. My response would just be, aren't there ways we can engage with our communities that don't involve the things that Mormonism brings with it?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:41:01] I don't know if we can easily invent those things, especially in a place like Utah, where Mormonism is so pervasive. I think engaging in my community, where I live in Texas, where there aren't a lot of members, I rarely meet a member of the church. It feels easier to be removed from the context of Mormonism altogether and to engage with people a little bit more just as human beings and without the context of the church.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:41:29] I think, I think, too, that it's difficult for me to accept the good parts of Mormonism because it feels like they come at the cost of those who suffer at the hands of Mormonism. And I talked about this before, but there's a. In the. Under the banner of heaven, there's a line where she is yelling at one of the husbands, and she says, does it make you feel taller to stand on the necks of women and children?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:41:59] And that line, like, made me cry because I feel like the Mormon Church stands tall on the necks of oppressed people, on the necks of gay and lesbian, LGBTQ community, on the necks of races. You know, people who. People who won't be accepted because of their race, people who won't be accepted into leadership positions because of their genitals, people who won't be accepted into, you know, all of these different levels at which women. Yes, women don't have the right genitals. So they can't be prophet, they can't pass the sacrament, they can't sit on the stand, they can't participate in all these ways that men just walk right through the door.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:42:45] Because they're men. Because what? Because they're men. Because that's the only difference. And I. I think that's why I probably take a slightly more. I don't know. I'm. I'm fine if I. If people call me an angry ex Mormon or a bitter ex Mormon, whatever you want to call it. I just feel the Mormon Church shouldn't be excused for the bad it does because of the good it does.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:15] It's important. Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:43:17] And I think of how many billions of dollars given through tithing money that is sent into Apple stock, sent into whatever other portfolio options, Tesla, Google, Facebook. That is also. That's damaged. That's money given by members to support people in need, and it's put into an investment account. That's a damage, too. And I think that is another level at which we can quantify and say, yes, okay, I know the Mormon Church does good for some people in their lives. Is there a way to help people see this truth behind Mormonism, the history, the bigotry, and come up with better ways to be good to each other? If people say missions are so great, even if you leave people who leave the church, or say, I'm still so grateful for my mission because it taught me so much.

John Dehlin [02:44:17] Learn the language.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:44:18] But aren't there other ways that we can help young people grow and become adults that don't involve sending them and making them pay to go door to door to tell people to pay 10 of their money to the church?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:44:33] So I. I think my. My standpoint on Mormonism potentially is slightly more aggressive than the average person, purely because I think of my student who Tried to kill himself. I think of myself as a child. I think of the little girl who has to watch her brother pass the sacrament but is told she can't. Why? Because you're a girl and that's the only reason you can't participate at the same level. And I, you know, those are just the beginning. The more you, like, dig into Mormonism, the more problems you find, as we've said. So I. I do.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:45:22] I understand that Mormonism does a lot of good, but I think that sometimes that good is done at the cost of those who suffer at the doctrines that Mormonism still keeps up.

John Dehlin [02:45:34] Yeah. Wow. And so when you were done, Jackson wasn't done, is that right? Or was he done soon after you were done?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:45:47] So he. He was done at a similar time. He actually, after my last Sunday, he met with the bishop of the ward and laid out all of his concerns. And the bishop essentially said the same thing, which is, we don't have an answer to those concerns.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:46:07] Or, you know, you have to kind of just. You have to have more faith. We can't know everything. We don't know the answer. We just know that. I just know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. And after that meeting with the bishop, Jackson says he bore his ex Mormon testimony to him that the church is not true, that he felt like he also was kind of absolved of his. He was ready to leave.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:46:32] So we both. And I don't remember. I don't know if there was a certain day. I know there was a day that we both went to go get coffee and I have a picture of. I took a picture of him.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] He took a picture for the first time.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:46:47] First time.

John Dehlin [02:46:47] We got how old now?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:46:49] 24. I guess by then I'm like holding my cup of coffee and that, I mean, just. That is. It's so crazy to me that I was raised in a church that made us. So I didn't have a cup of coffee till I was 24.

John Dehlin [02:47:03] Do you want to tell that story? Because that might be fun for people to hear.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:07] You know, it's fun, but it's also. It was kind of unremarkable. It's just. We just went to the coffee shop.

John Dehlin [02:47:13] Like Starbucks or something?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:14] No, we went into. It was a local place in Salt Lake. I don't remember the name, though.

John Dehlin [02:47:18] Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:20] We ordered. I don't even remember what I got.

John Dehlin [02:47:23] Latte, Probably.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:24] Probably. Probably whatever they recommended. And it, you know, it did kind of. It kind of these moments really make your brain explode because you've been told your whole Life. That coffee is so bad that it's evil.

John Dehlin [02:47:41] Basically, it'll keep you from your eternal

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:44] salvation if you, you can't go, you can't keep your temple recommend if you're drinking coffee. It's the word of wisdom you can't

John Dehlin [02:47:52] return to live with.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:53] Heavenly Father, your salvation is on the line. So when I have my first sip and I'm. I'm the same nothing. I'm. I am not cast into hell. I don't, you know, become homeless immediately or a drug addict immediately, or any number of other, like, scary ills that they might warn you will befall you if you break the commandments. I just had a sip of coffee and sat with my husband and we laughed a little bit. And just like, it was like anticlimactic in the best way possible because it was, you know, it was just really, I think it was really healing and it was really beautiful to just.

The Leaving Process and Writing the Book

Alyssa Grenfell [02:48:37] And that's a lot of what the book is about, is having these moments where you finally cross this bridge that you've been told is forbidden and you realize that the only reason that thing had any power over me is because I let it, because the church told me. And when you wear a tank top for the first time and you know, when I wore a tank top for the first time, I just felt.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:49:06] I felt so badass. Just felt so cool. I felt so like taking my life into my own hands. Taking, you know, being, choosing for myself, finally choosing what I was going to put on my own body, choosing my own clothing. Choosing clothing that I like and not just clothing that was garment appropriate. It's just really exciting and really beautiful, I think, to experience

John Dehlin [02:49:36] beautiful, powerful.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:37] I love the way you talk about it too, because I think it is the perfect foil when the church has such intensity around every choice you make. You have this sense that it's like so easy to defile yourself or to lose your worth. Yeah. To have this sense of like, unremarkable, unremarkable coffee. Same as before.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:50:04] I get to choose who I am. I get to. I. I can still be a good person. I can still know I'm a good person even if I drink coffee.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:14] Yeah. And that's the piece to identity. And that's where I think the deeper root of like, why it's so insid. Like, the message of like, particularly for women, I feel is just like, when you're given, and I've said this before on the podcast, when you're given, like so small a space to live and breathe and develop in your Life, it's so easy to, to have that value be diminished. Right. And so I love this idea too, of like, it's, it's nothing. Your identity is so much larger, as it turns out, than what we were conditioned to believe about ourselves. So as you go through the book, that's what I love most is this sense of like, oh, I'm trying this thing, I'm trying this thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:03] I'm trying this thing. All. You know, that the church was like, fear, fear your salvation, fear everything you love in your life with this choice. And at the end you're like, and my identity is still intact, as it turns out. Like we are so much bigger than we have been conditioned to believe. And I love that in the book because I feel like you show that as you move through. Yeah, yeah, I. Sorry.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:51:34] I just that I think there's something very empowering about having these experiences when you've been told for so long that they make you a bad person. And then to just really realize that it's so not true. And that what Mormonism teaches is a good person, which is not watching R rated movies, not drinking coffee, wearing garment appropriate clothing.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:52:01] Really, you can still be a pretty awful human and do all of those things. And you can do all of those things and still be a really wonderful, empathetic, kind, sweet, wonderful human being that watching an R rated movie doesn't make you bad. And I think I bought into these things make you bad for so long that when I finally stepped out of that box and allowed myself to, you know, watch the Notebook or you know, all of these things that growing up, my friends got to enjoy and experience and you know, even Schindler's List, me and Jackson watched that. I always wanted to see that, but I never did because it was rated R.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:52:48] And that's one of the most beautiful, sad, touching movies imaginable. But I never watched it because it was rated R. And that's really allowing a rules based on religion to decide how you'll move through your life. And I, I love being out of the church, finally choosing for myself how I move through my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:13] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:53:13] And asking and when, when, when confronted with a question, should I try drinking? Should I be a stay at home mom? Should I pursue this career option Instead of saying, let me pray about it and ask God and feel if I feel a feeling. I finally, for the first time in my life after leaving the church, could say, what do I want?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:53:37] Like I never, I never considered that before, before I left the church, what do I want? And I'm gonna do. And even if you make a choice that leads to a mistake, at least it's your own mistake. Like, I chose teaching, and that was a mistake.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:53:55] But at least now if I make a mistake, I can say it was my own mistake. It came from me. It's not some outsourced choice I made at the hands of a God that came from the mouth of my dad.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:54:10] So I truly love and I think I meet ex Mormons who have been out for 10 years and have never tried coffee, and they've never worn a tank top, and they've never done all these tiny little things, but they've been out of the church. It's almost like they leave the church, they lose their testimony, but they never figure out how to embrace the world, embrace everything the world has to offer, and learn to love what's outside their door, because it's very scary.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:54:40] But I think being empowered to find these, Find things to replace Mormonism with is very empowering, and it's very fulfilling. And to me, it's really helped me build myself back up into who I am now, which to me now is. Is a much more.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:55:02] I feel much more possessed by my own identity than I ever have before. I no longer push down certain parts of myself because I'm trying to appeal to an outside authority. I just ask myself, am I happy? Do I like it? Is it a good choice? Is it a happy choice? Is it a kind choice? Do I. Do I want to do this? And being led by your own mind for once instead of being led by God is very. It's really centering, I think.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:34] Yeah. I love how you focus on the difference in kind of where you root or ground yourself is in empowerment, connection to yourself and choice that you. Now, that is something that is different. Is that being conscious of choice. We get to choose. We have choices.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:55:57] Yeah. I mean, agency is. They talk about agency a lot in the church, but there's not a lot of agency in the church. Obviously, you know, they'll say, well, you can choose to be baptized and go to heaven and live in the celestial kingdom, or you can choose not to. Those are the choices.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:13] With none of your family.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:56:15] With none of your family, and you'll be in the telestial kingdom versus having the ability to just say, you know, what I have on this earth is here in front of me. I was. I wanted to write a book. I've always wanted to write a book. I decided to do that. And a lot of parts of myself said, no one will ever read this book. But I ultimately had to just say, if no one ever reads this, I just want to do it because I have had this dream for so long and I want it so I will follow my dream purely not because of a revelation or because of anything. Father's blessing or father's blessing. I just want to choose to do something for once in my life because I want it.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:01] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:57:02] And when I was writing it, a lot of times I'd wake up at 4am or 5am to write it before my kids woke up. And I'd be writing it and be like, no one's ever gonna read this. And I just wanted to do it because God damn it, I wanted to do it.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:57:18] And I'm really proud. I'm really proud of myself. And I hope that everyone that leaves the church can do something that they're deeply proud of, that they feel really passionate about and passion by that, they can say, I did this. I lived my dream. I did the thing that I've always dreamed of after I left, whatever that was. Maybe you finally can get married to the person that you've loved. Maybe you can finally pursue the career you've been interested or, you know, whatever it is. I think this book is meant to and hopefully will encourage the readers to just live a life that is led from within.

John Dehlin [02:58:06] Beautiful mic drop. I have a question that you can just say you don't want to talk about or answer, but I want to just throw it out there. You and I crossed paths unknowingly several years ago when I attended the wedding of a dear friend of mine, Tyler, and his wife Caralee, his bride at the time. Caralee. Caralee is my sister. Yeah. So what year was that wedding?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:58:33] Probably 2014, 15.

John Dehlin [02:58:35] So Caralee would have. Tyler and Carlee would have gotten married while you were still believing, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:58:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:41] So the way that Mormon families work, whoever goes out first is blamed for whoever goes out second. So I imagine that there might be people in your family who would want to say that it was, let's just say as an example, Tyler and Carolee, or Carolee and Tyler that were the cause and of you ultimately leaving. I want you to talk. If you want to just address the reality or non reality of that statement, that's fine. It would also be great if you could explain why assumptions like that can be very insulting and hurtful to people like you. So that's a two part question.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:59:22] So what's the first part?

John Dehlin [02:59:23] So if somebody wants to say, well, it must have been the Alden's, you know what I mean? Carolee and the Alden's right, I think.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:59:34] I think so much is done to program members to think that there is no good reason to leave and that any reason someone leaves always falls under the umbrella of laziness, coercion, bad influence,

John Dehlin [02:59:52] wanted to sin, got offended.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:59:55] It can never be because you. Because it was the best thing, because you were right. You'll never hear a member of the church say, I'm so proud of you for leaving. I'm so proud you made that really hard decision for yourself. That sounds so difficult.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:00:14] It's only either silence or a brief conversation filled with sadness. But I think I. When Carolee left, I really. My sister, I really wanted to. I think I wanted to be able to claim, at least in my mind and know for myself that I had left on my own two feet and that I was not dragged out by some other person and that I was not coerced or, you know, given some anti Mormon information that ruined my testimony, but that it was really a choice that I made for myself. And so I actually didn't tell my sister I was even having a faith crisis at all until after we had fully left.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:01:06] I called her the day after I had my first glass of wine, actually, because that felt like a very definitive. Like I have, hey, there's no going back after that.

John Dehlin [03:01:18] I mean, you're pretty lost after that.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:01:21] Yeah. So I felt the need, and I think a lot of ex Mormons feel the need to leave in a very particular way that gives them a sense of legitimacy, which is very silly because you don't need to legitimize your choice to anyone. But because I think members and the church demonizes leaving so thoroughly, it's really insulting to feel like there's no intellectually, like, intellectually pure way to leave the

John Dehlin [03:01:49] church legitimate, intellectually or morally or spiritually legitimate.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:01:54] None of those. None of those things can ever be the case. You're always gonna be the black sheep. You're always gonna be the one that couldn't hold on long enough.

John Dehlin [03:02:02] The empty chair, the disappointment, the faithless.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:02:06] So I really wanted. I didn't want to tell her till I was sure because I wanted to have it be just. I wanted to be. Be able to easily say, this is my choice. This is my choice. I was. I didn't even talk to Caralee or my sister. And it was your own and it was my own. And I. I don't think that everyone needs to feel that way. And I don't even think I should have felt that way. I wish I Honestly, looking back, would have confided in her because I think she probably would have helped me a lot and emotionally supported me along the way. But I think the church's narrative about people leaving is what kept me from confiding in her because I didn't want her poisoning the well, which is so silly because she's my sister.

John Dehlin [03:02:49] Otherwise known as being your sister.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:02:51] Yeah, she's my sister. I, I, you know, I sh, I, I wish, in hindsight, I wish I would have had a little bit more confidence in my own decision making to say I don't care what other people think. If, if I talk to her, that's my choice. I want to talk to my sister about this.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:10] Part of it reminds me a little bit of like the natural man philosophy too. Just that. And this exists, I feel like even with you brought it up with sisters. I think sometimes it comes up with couples. If a husband leaves first, then it's sort of like, yeah, well, the husband, like he led you out or he influenced you. But there's this idea of like contagion too, or that, you know, we're so weak minded. If we come close to someone who is making different decisions or differentiating or critical thinking, we're gonna be like, we're just lost. It's almost back to the idea of what you experienced when you were 13 or so with the men and the women.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:51] Like men, men and their desires, they have no control. Like the natural man is just a little bit pathetic without these saving graces and without the Church. Lucky for us that we are, you know, made pure and strong through kind of the Church. And I think that exists here and superior, but I think that exists here too with like oftentimes with, in relation to study, critical thinking. And when people leave, it's just sort of like, yeah, like it's, it's insidious that way. Like we're so weak minded that we'll be influenced and therefore like really let's, it's part of our separateness and insularity within Mormonism. To, to that's key. It's key to keeping us like away from actually other humans, you know?

John Dehlin [03:04:43] Yeah, for sure. By design. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:46] Wait, there was a second part to your question, right?

John Dehlin [03:04:48] I think she answered. It's insulting.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:04:52] Yeah. When you tell someone that they left because somebody else pulled them out, you're saying you didn't think this through. You don't have a brain for yourself. You're easily influenced by other people.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:02] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:05:03] It reminds me of on, you know, on your mission, you're allowed to baptize someone after three weeks of they have to go to church three times and take all the lessons and then they can get baptized. So some people get baptized in three weeks and everybody celebrates that. Like, wow, a conversion in three weeks. This is so beautiful, so exciting. Overnight conversion, the golden investigator. But if you leave the church over three weeks, that's such, that's so looked down upon as, like you only cared about it enough to think about it for three weeks. You know, you're supposed to struggle with this for years and years and years. And we, we love and accept these converts who get baptized in three weeks, but we can't love and accept the people who leave in three weeks.

John Dehlin [03:05:50] And many of those converts are leaving their church to come to ours. Right.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:05:53] And then probably go back.

John Dehlin [03:05:57] Okay, cool. All right. So you had, you had a few other kind of sections to your outline about your journey. I know that tomorrow we're going to be talking about sort of 10, 10 tips on how to leave the Mormon Church. I know that Margi has a part of your book she wants you to close with. So before we get to that, let's make sure we include any final parts of your story today that you want to include.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:06:28] I think that it's a good one. First part, second part, because I feel like to understand part two, you kind of have to understand the leaving process. I think it's something that as you leave the church, I'm sure I've shared a lot of the same feelings and emotions and thought patterns you have to face as you leave. That's part one is the leaving. And I, I think of my book as kind of CES letter part two, because I feel like you have the leaving and the deconstruction and the breakdown and the loss. And then the book is part two, which is the let's build after, let's fill back up, let's create something to come from this and let's make something really beautiful and better than better than before.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:07:18] Not living in the shadow of who you are as a Mormon, but becoming something much greater and more complex and self fulfilled than before is my hope. So a lot, yeah, I would say for the outline, a lot of this translates very well to part two. So I'm happy to read if you had.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:42] Well, I thought it would be a lovely way to just sort of close out your story and to give people now just a taste of your writing and a taste of the book. I mean, I don't know how you would feel about it, but the part That I kind of talked to you.

John Dehlin [03:07:58] So while Margi's looking it up, I'm gonna plug it again. The book is how to Leave the Mormon Church, An Ex Mormon's Guide to Rebuilding After Religion by Alyssa Grenfell. Forward by on. I'm honored to say forward by me. John De Lynn. And this, a link to this book is in the description of this episode. I would love it if this book became a number one bestseller across the United States. But don't do it for that alone. Even though we want to support our authors and healers, do it because you or people you love are going to benefit from the. The thoughtfulness and the wisdom and the tips and the advice and the courage of this book. So with that, Margi, why did you let. What did you love about this section? Why do you think it's a great way to close today?

Reading From How to Leave the Mormon Church

Margi Dehlin [03:08:50] Well, I kind of want it to stand on its own. All right. I just think it's a beautiful way.

John Dehlin [03:08:57] So this is Alyssa Grenfell reading from her book how to Leave the Mormon Church page.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:09:01] What page? 240. 240 forty.

John Dehlin [03:09:04] All right.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:09:05] And before I read too, just to add to what you were saying about the book, there's two parts. The first part of the book is meant for people who are new in the process of leaving, maybe in the first six months or so. It deals with how to tell your family new frameworks to investigate as far as belief goes, how to be careful and not move so fast that you make mistakes.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:09:30] The second part is much more for, I would say like six months, ex Mormon and onward. A lot of the topics I cover, I think, are things that even if you've been out for five or 10 years, might still be applicable. Because I think it. Mormonism lingers in very many ways. And so if you're considering purchasing it and you think, I've been out for a long time, the second half is truly something that I think could last for or be applicable for a very long time. So just one more plug. All right, so this is what I'm going to read is from the last.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:10:12] The last chapter, which is called Commencement. So like graduation. And it's about becoming an ex Mormon. And I hope I don't get emotional. So I'm gonna wait.

John Dehlin [03:10:25] We like it when you get emotional. What are you talking about?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:10:28] Well, usually that's the good stuff.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:29] It would make sense if you did okay.

John Dehlin [03:10:31] It would be preferable if you did well.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:10:32] You might have a hard time understanding what I'm saying if I cry. So.

John Dehlin [03:10:35] And they'll get the book for the second second over.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:10:38] Okay, here we go. Life is not what I dreamed of as a kid. These days when I wake up in the morning, I lace up my shoes and go for a run. Jackson watches our two boys once they wake up and makes them breakfast. He never needs to ask me what our kids like to eat or where to find their socks. He already knows.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:10:59] When I get back from my run, I make our coffee. We sip and chat while my oldest, Eli, plays with Legos at the table. My youngest, west, toddles from toy to toy, occasionally glancing back to make sure his dad and I are where he left us.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:11:11] Jackson heads to work while I stay home with the kids. During nap time, I work on my book. It's taken me two slow years and I'm in the editing phase, and it feels triumphant. Once nap time ends, I take the boys out for a bike ride. I wear a tank top and athletic shorts. We stop under an oak tree and sip water in the cool shade. If Eli falls off his bike, he cries and I give him hugs and kisses. I don't lecture him. Boys don't cry. Instead, we talk through what happened and how he can be safer next time.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:11:40] That night, Jackson cooks dinner while I play with the kids. He brings up an interesting article about legalizing psilocybin, and I share a podcast I recently heard on the topic. After the table is set, I pour two glasses of wine and Eli asks if we can say cheers. We clink our glasses with his water and toast to the day. Jackson plays Dark side of the Moon while we eat. We discussed meeting friends at a brewery over the weekend. Let's suggest the one with the playground. Eli and Wes will love it.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:12:08] I put the kids to bed while Jackson cleans the kitchen. After dinner, Once the kids are asleep, we watch Kill Bill. We've been working our way through all the Quentin Tarantino films. Jackson's favorite is Pulp Fiction, and mine is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:12:21] After the movie ends, we lay in bed and discuss the future. Jackson's business is doing well. Hopefully soon he'll quit his job and work for himself full time. He asked for my thoughts on his current website design. We discuss my book, and I ask it for him to read a chapter and give me feedback. He tells me he's proud of me. I smile and respond, I'm proud of you, too.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:12:41] While this day feels typical to me, it's interwoven. It's interwoven with moments I never imagined as an active Mormon. And yet these average, ordinary Days are the most magical, beautiful times of my life. My father never cooked us dinner. My Mormon friends rarely have help when cleaning the kitchen.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:13:01] My garments would. My garments would keep me from wearing a tank top and shorts on a bike ride. From R rated movies to. To psychedelic discussions, the discussions between Jackson and me are as vast and open as the expanse of the universe. Nothing is off limits.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:13:16] Eli has also heard his dad never say, boys don't cry. And he's never seen either of us pray. He doesn't know who Jesus Christ is, and every day he sees his father cooking, cleaning, and treating his mother with respect.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:13:26] Sometimes Jackson smokes on our patio and I enjoy an occasional glass of wine with dinner. We are still good stewards of our family. We decide what little pieces compose our day. Every interaction and choice is tinged with love for our children, love for each other, and love ourselves.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:13:43] Own. Excuse me. Owning your own life is remarkably intoxicating. I hope in reading this book and working through each chapter, you've begun to feel the same way. I hope your new days outside of Mormonism are as unremarkable and simultaneously unexpected as mine. You are doing so well, reader. I hope that if no one in your life, and I hope if no one in your life is loving you and praising you for making such a difficult, courageous life change, you feel it from me.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:14:16] I am proud of you. I see you and your struggles. If I was sitting there next to you, I would give you a massive hug. You can do this. You can leave the Mormon Church. Leave it behind completely. Root it out of yourself and your heart and your mind. Keep only what serves you, what makes you happy, and lifts those around you. For the rest, find it, examine it, learn from it, and then toss it to the ground. The rest of your life is anxiously waiting for you. Go out and live it. Excuse me.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:51] So beautiful.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:14:55] Thank you for suggesting to read that. I didn't think I would cry that much.

John Dehlin [03:15:00] But you knew you were gonna cry.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:15:02] Oh, I knew I was gonna cry, but I didn't think the tears would actually fall. I thought that the.

John Dehlin [03:15:08] That was beautiful. Great suggestion. That was beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Did you want to say anything about that, Margi, and what you loved about it, or let it stand on its own, like you said?

Margi Dehlin [03:15:18] I think it does showcase the writing. And I do feel like in this book, and I've already told Alyssa this, I think it is very difficult to

Alyssa Grenfell [03:15:31] do what she did.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:33] Where you're writing from a practical space, you also are not trying to be didactic or give a formula or instruct so it's factual, it's practical, it's accessible there. And your story is interwoven. There are personal experiences. You have other people sharing stories in it. So there's this connection to you as the writer, as the reader. I spent all day yesterday reading it, and there's care. I just felt so cared for. I mean, my transition has been years.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:10] It's been several years ago now. But the care, the prompts, it's an incredible, just, I don't know, mix of very tough things to do all at once. But I loved that because to me, it's what awaits and it's so opposite of what we've been told as Mormons awaits us. And I love how you always are coming back to the magic and of the unremarkable, that there's magic there.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:50] And. Yeah, I just think I feel hope and I feel, you know, I don't know, I just. And the emotional impact of that, too. And the writing, I mean, it's good writing.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:17:05] Thank you. Well, thank you. And I. I feel like I really. I really tried to write exactly what I needed to hear when I was in the midst of my despair, which I think is that there's really is hope and that things can be really unremarkable and feel like you're just so normal, but also somehow so different from what you ever thought was possible. And I'm glad you liked it so much. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:17:44] And we say these things in the name of Alyssa Grenfell Grenfell. Amen. The book, again, is how to Leave the Mormon Church, An Ex Mormon's Guide to Rebuilding After Religion. You can get on Amazon in ebook form or in paperback or hardcover.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:18:02] Audible, coming soon.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:04] And come back tomorrow for sure. Because we have not even started with kind of the sections of the book. And I think it'll give you a really great taste for the book and how it. The layout and kind of what I was saying in a way that you'll really appreciate.

John Dehlin [03:18:20] It'll be top 10 tips for leaving the Mormon Church. So that'll be tomorrow. And buy the book, Buy it for others. And thank you, Alyssa, for coming all this way. Thanks for Margi, for all you add, and thanks to Julia and Maven for what they do in Gerardo and Brooklyn for all that they do to make our production possible and our board.

John Dehlin [03:18:46] And mostly, I just want to thank the donors who donate to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this without your support, so thank you. And if you value not just Mormon Stories, but our ability to help use our platform to elevate other important creators. We always would appreciate your support. So go to MormonStories.org if you want. If you're in the position to click on the donate button, become a monthly donor. And for as long as we can, we'll keep providing this sort of content for you as well. But today, if you do anything, buy this book, because that's the thing. All right, thanks everyone.

John Dehlin [03:19:25] Thanks for joining us. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Part Two Begins: Recap and Context

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1851

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. I am here with my brilliant partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:10] Hey. Good morning.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] It's January 12, 2024. Happy New Year. Today we are here to share with you an amazing new book that we believe is going to be as important, if not more important than the CES Letter. I think it should be a companion to the CES letter. I'm going to call Jeremy Reynolds and say, Jeremy, let's bundle this book with the CES letter. The book is called how to Leave the Mormon Church. It was released yesterday, January 11, 2024. And you can click on the description to purchase a copy. But this is a book written by Alyssa Grenfell. Hey, Alyssa, welcome.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:48] Hey.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:00:48] Thank you for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Yeah. And I wrote an introduction to a forward to this book, but it's sort of a how to manual for people young and old and in between to sort of have a bit of an intro guide to leaving the Mormon Church. We did a threeish hour story with Alyssa yesterday talking about her Mormon story and how super orthodox, faithful returned missionary, temple married, temple working, a Mormon wife who happens to be a millennial. Why would she ever, of all people lose her Mormon faith? And then how did she deal with the aftermath? And that was yesterday's episode. We recommend that you pause today, go back and watch that and then come back to get the full effect of today's episode.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] But you don't have to do that. Today we asked alyssa in this two part series to come up with her top 10 suggestions for navigating a faith crisis leaving the Mormon Church. And that's what we're gonna be covering today. Again, please buy this book right now. Let's make it an international bestseller. Not just because that would be cool, but because this book will help you. It will also help your loved ones. So please, please get it and I promise you won't regret it. It's in hardback form, paperback form, and on the Kindle ebook form. And, and she's going to work on an audio version. And if I know Alyssa, that means she'll have it ready by later this afternoon.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Okay. So Alyssa, how have you felt since yesterday's episode? It's already gotten like 25,000 views, which is really, really good for 1212 hours. But how are you feeling about yesterday?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:02:40] Yeah, it was very intense. I didn't expect how hard it is to talk about such a so many personal stories for, you know, and tell your whole story. So it was really it was really challenging, but it was also really cool. And I think reading the comments of the YouTube video already and seeing people be so supportive and so having so many people share that they've purchased the book. I woke up this morning and it has the. A little badge in the Amazon store that it's the number one new release in Mormonism, which is very funny because I am currently beating the Book of Mormon, which I know most people just get that from the missionaries, but I to imagine that I'm.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:03:19] That me as an author is outranking Joseph Smith, the author. So very excited to just see that this book is connecting with people, that they're interested in it and that they're willing to see if it's going to help them too. So thank you for having me on.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] And I just love, you know, one of the biggest, you know, we all know that the Mormon Church doesn't set women up sometimes in their strongest position if they happen to leave the church and, or get divorced from. From the church. And so so many Mormon women end up just after their faith crisis saying, what. What can I do with my life now that the. The motherhood purpose isn't the only purpose of my life anymore? Now that I don't have the church providing me, meaning, what do I even do with my life? I love your story, kind of the meta structure of your story as well. One Mormon mother and wife in human chooses to do as a way to turn the lemon, so to speak, into lemonade. I love that.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:04:23] Yeah, I think it's very difficult to leave and feel that you've kind of quashed any part of your identity that falls outside of the mom and wife categories. And when I first got married, on my wedding day, another member of the church actually told me that I should feel really happy because my wedding day is the most beautiful I'll ever be on the day of my wedding. This is the most beautiful you'll ever be. This is the happiest you'll ever be. It was a woman and you should just really cherish today. And she basically was.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] It's all downhill from there.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:04:59] Nothing says it's all downhill from here like, today's the best day of your life. And so I am so excited to be on this podcast. This is really a dream come true to publish my book and to prove her and Mormonism wrong. That my wedding day was beautiful, but it wasn't the only most beautiful day of my life. I get lots of most beautiful days of my life. So thank you for having me here. It's really, really, like I said, a dream come true.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] It's our pleasure. Okay, so you had a wardrobe decision that you wanted to make, and I thought it would be empowering for you to discuss that and make that decision explicitly and overtly because I'm not the subtlest of human. So I pushed that onto my guests.

Reclaiming Identity After Leaving

Alyssa Grenfell [00:05:44] Okay. Yes. Before we started going on the live and recording, as I was planning what I was gonna wear for this podcast, I wanted to wear a tank top. If you're watching the podcast or if you're listening, I'm wearing a tank top and kind of an overshirt. So I brought the tank top, but I also brought the overshirt because I knew that I was going to feel kind of anxious about this tank top decision, and I wasn't sure I was gonna basically be courageous enough to wear the tank top. And so I have this overshirt. I have the tank top. And before we started recording, I explained to these two that I was going to take the overshirt off and commit to the tank top because it's a bit of an advertisement, in my opinion, for this book, because wearing something like this is still difficult for me, especially online, especially on a video.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:06:33] And so before we started, I took the overshirt off and I explained, okay, I'm gonna be brave. And they both, John especially, said, you know, let's wait and let's explain. So get ready for the big reveal. It's the big tank top reveal.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:46] It's so relatable.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:06:47] Alyssa, really, the porn shoulders, as they say.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:51] This is deconditioning as we in process.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:06:57] And I also. The reason I chose this tank top is I feel like I really like. I kind of like subverting expectations too, because I like the pearls and the pearl earrings because it feels like it adds a level of class to an unclassy outfit. You know, Mormonism would consider this unclassy. So I kind of like the convergence of the class with the lack of class. So that's why I chose this. And thank you guys for pumping me up to have the courage to wear a tank top, which a lot of people have no question doing. But for someone out of the church for eight years, I still get a little self conscious. So that's the story.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Well, the feedback coming in is really great. Analyzing Mormonism says, alyssa, you look gorgeous. Let's see. Falk Castell says, wow, you look so classy with it. S.L. connolly says, you look great. So people are. People are very supportive and affirming.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:08:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] All right, everybody. So I wanted to just begin with one super tiny disclaimer. At the very beginning of Mormon Stories podcast, I had to figure out what we wanted Mormon Stories podcast to be about. And at the time, I was still in the church before they excommunicated me, but I still had to think about whether we were ever going to be taking the position about whether people should stay or leave the church. And I just want to say something that I said yesterday, which is it is not the Mormon Stories podcast position that people should stay in the Mormon Church or leave the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] That's something that we believe is a super personal decision. And I just want to make sure that people know that by having Alyssa on, by promoting this book, and by titling the episode in this way. I just, just want to be clear. I don't think it's ethical to tell people they should leave or do anything. I believe everybody. If there's anything we've learned from Mormonism, is that people should be guided by their own inner compass. And so we, we believe there are valid reasons to stay, there are valid reasons to leave. And so, and so this is about providing people with wisdom and tools if they make the decision that they need to leave. And I think this exact issue is going to be one of the bullet points that we talk about today. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:25] Yes.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:09:26] And the book, I don't think anyone's going to likely purchase this book if they're very committed to the church. The title sets it as something that if you're an active member of the church, you're going to be disinterested in. So the first chapter picks up at the moment of the faith crisis. So it assumes someone has had a faith crisis and is actively dealing with the faith crisis. It is not, it's not a book that is aimed at, here's all the reasons why you should no longer believe in Mormonism. I think a lot of literature already addresses that subject. This is meant more to help you pick up the pieces once they're already on the ground. So it's. And also to echo it does not encourage people to leave, so much as helps them think through the thought process of if I've lost my faith, should I then leave the church?

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Yeah. And I'll add that if there's anyone out there who's written a really good book on, I mean, I wrote an 80 page Internet essay on how to stay in the church after a crisis of faith, maybe we should do that podcast sometime. But if there's anyone out there who's written A high quality book on how to stay in the church after losing your faith. I would love to interview them too. Okay, so today we're going to be covering the top 10, your top 10 tips on how to leave the Mormon Church, is that right?

Practical Tips for Leaving the Church

Alyssa Grenfell [00:10:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] And let's read all 10 to start with just so people know what we're going to be covering.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:10:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] And then we'll go into it. So what are the 10 you chose?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:10:53] So the 10 I chose, the first is not a tip so much as a explain the intro, the how and the why of the book. So that's the first one. The second is learning to trust yourself over someone in authority or an organization in authority, and not even trusting me as the author, but practicing truly trusting yourself, the reader. Number three is how to decide if you should stay in the church or leave after you've lost your faith. Number four is strategies and approaches to coming out to family and friends. And covers anything from your parents to your children to a spouse to friends, ward members.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:11:30] Number five is slow and steady wins the race. So talking about how once you lose your testimony, once you lose your faith, how to ensure that you're not immediately going off and kind of burning down your life or making really quick, really drastic choices in your personal life, but slowing down and being considerate.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:11:50] Number six is sex and sexuality. How to learn about yourself as a sexual being. How to destigmatize things like pornography, masturbation. Number seven is substances from coffee to cocktails to cannabis to psychedelics. And how to be careful and considerate and understand the risks of substance use.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:12:19] Number eight is identity, how to reconstruct and rebuild your identity as a post Mormon, ex Mormon, no longer Mormon person. How to figure out what you are as a nun, no longer Mormon. Number nine is building a new life and community outside the confines of Mormonism. How to reconnect back into a community of people who support you and love you. And number 10 is becoming an ex ex Mormon, how to not just leave Mormonism behind, but if you're ready to leave ex Mormonism or post Mormonism behind as well and to live your life outside of this kind of hyper fixated state we are all of us go through in the process of leaving the church.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:06] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] Yeah, beautiful. Okay, so let's jump into number one.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:13:10] Okay. And for number one, you already, you already explained a little bit of what I wanted to talk about first, which is just that I feel like after I finished the CES letter, after I lost my testimony, I really wanted and needed resources that I could go to for all of these moments that you have to confront after you leave the church and ask, what should I do here as an example, my husband, after we left, expressed he was curious about weed, cannabis. And it's so mind bending that someone you married in the temple across from the altar would ever ask you that question. And so I really wanted a safe space to go and explore topically.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:13:57] I really loved binging podcasts. I looked at the Ex Mormon subreddit, but I felt like there was a need for a compiling of every single topic that you might face or have a question about and put it in a book. So this allows the reader to pick up the book and like a true guide, not read it from COVID to cover, but go to these certain sections and say, I'm really struggling with my sexuality. Let me go read that chapter and see some ideas from this person that has also faced this and see what they have to say. So it kind of picks up, I think, where the CES letter leaves you and buoys you back up to begin to think about these different aspects of your life that are now left in question by leaving the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] And I'll just add, I'm friends with Jeremy. He just reached out to me last week. But when Jeremy wrote the CES letter, his intent was to write a book called what's Next? But he just, Life happened and he decided, I think, not to write that book. So he kind of envisioned this book. So you're the fulfillment of Jeremy Reynolds prophecy? Basically.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:15:02] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:02] Very cool.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:15:04] Yeah, I love that. I think it's very common. I spend a lot of time still on the Ex Mormon subreddit and I see almost every day there's at least one person posting, I just lost my faith. What do I do? And I think a lot of people come into the ex Mormon space not with a need of, hey, can you help me deconstruct my faith? I'm questioning, but having questioned, looking for support and understanding and community. So a lot of people don't need more resources or there are already abundant resources for history, morality, questions surrounding ethics of the church. But I think I just saw a need of people need more resources that are comprehensive and cover many topics to help them figure out and make their way into this new world that they're facing.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Yeah, okay. Okay.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:15:58] So the way I got the idea for this book is I left when I was 23. I left, I would say, before any of my friends. I didn't know anyone except for my sister who had left the church. And when I left.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:16:14] I had a lot of friends and a lot of acquaintances. And keep in mind, I went to byu. I served a mission. Most of my friends were Mormon, and a lot of them stopped talking to me. They maybe reached out and said, hey, I'm sorry you're going through this. But they ultimately, we stopped speaking. And I think that this became the thorn in our relationship that we couldn't overcome.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:16:37] And then a lot of people in the last, you know, I left about eight years ago, in the last eight years have since left. So a lot of the people who at one point very understandably said, I don't know if I can continue being friends with you because of this thing, that you've left the church, or I feel very sorry for you, or I pity you, or how sad.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:16:56] Reached back out and said, hey, I am now really struggling with my faith. And a lot of times it was just acquaintances, like another MTC teacher, another mission companion or person from my mission who I was never companions with. And I recognize to some extent, if you're going through a faith crisis, and it just shows, I think, how lonely it is because to reach out through the Internet to a very old acquaintance shows you're probably not able to talk to your family. You're probably not able to talk to your close friends because, you know, it's not a safe space.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:17:33] And so for them to reach back out to me was great to reconnect, and I loved hearing their stories. But I also think showed a need that people need. Need opportunities to ask these questions, to talk through these topics in a really safe space that they feel they'll receive no judgment. And.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:17:53] And a lot of them, when they would reach back out to me, I actually started an album in my phone of screenshots of all these conversations. And I have over 30 people who were from my life across time who have reached out to me from my old wards, from byu, from my mission, who just said, hey, I'm now struggling with my faith. I know you left the church. Can you. Can we have a phone call together so I can just talk to you? And when I would talk to them, a lot of the same questions would come up. How did you tell your parents? How did you try coffee for the first time?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:18:27] How did you get over the guilt associated with having a glass of wine? And all of these same questions led me to realize that there was just a need for this sort of literature.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Speaking of your sister Carolee, we were having dinner last night. You weren't even comfortable reaching out to your sister, who you knew had already left. Isn't that mind blowing?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:18:51] Yeah. She had been out. She left about a year or so before me. And I felt like even though she was already out, I didn't want to. I didn't want to taint my leaving by confiding in her because I felt like it would be used as ammunition against me. Oh, you told your sister she sent you anti Mormon literature. She convinced you to leave.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] That Caralee would be blamed for what?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:19:18] Not just that she would be blamed for me leaving, but that I would not get to claim it for my own. That's my own. That my own journey would no longer belong to me as a result of leaving the church. So I really wanted. I think I had a really strong sense that I wanted my own story to be my own story and my own choice to be my own choice versus having the people around me start pointing at the other elements that might have darkened my path. Like I had no brain of my own or agency of my own or thoughts of my own.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Yeah, yeah. That's so important. Okay. Yeah. So people I was talking to, for those of you who are watching, In January of 2024, there's a Mormon bishop who recently resigned from being a bishop. On the pulpit. Over the pulpit, and it was recorded. And I was talking to him, and he was just. He's just like, where have all the ward members gone? Like, I've been their bishop and, like, it seems like everyone's disappeared from my life almost immediately. And he was just in shock that you just. You lose almost everyone who's Mormon, basically. Yeah, sometimes. And often family members.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:20:34] Yeah, I think we. I think members who leave are. Are positioned as poison. Like we become poison.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:42] They.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:20:43] I think a lot of members, I do believe members are good, have good hearts, but I think they think that by continuing to associate with people who have left, they will be poisoned too. And so I don't think, Like, I've heard that Jehovah's Witnesses, they have a really outline. They have a full outline for disfellowshipping Mormonism. You don't really talk about disfellowshipping, but it definitely happens. And it's not something where someone says from the pulpit, the edict is we will disfellowship as family. But it's a very unspoken rule of Mormonism that if somebody leaves, they are disfellowshipped.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] And I. And I mean, the. More just technically, the Mormon Church disfellowships people all the time, overtly. It's a way of putting a member's status on probation.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:21:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] Tell me if what you mean is shunning.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:21:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] Because Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists do this hard shunning. But what I often call it in Mormonism is soft shunning because they make not say, I'll never speak to you again. That would be too overtly aggressive for a Mormon. But they may take you out of a text string. They may stop inviting you to things. They may not want you around their children anymore. And in that way, it's soft shunning.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:21:56] Yeah. Yes. I definitely think that that's a good word for it. Perhaps there's never a conversation that is very explicit about this, but it happens to everyone, I think. And then it's really cool and feels healing in a way when a lot of those people who did the soft shunning come back around and have even told me, hey, because when I left, I also, I put a big post on Facebook about how I was leaving. And I'll talk about that in one of the other points. But so that was very public. And in the same way, I wanted to control my own story and say, I'm leaving.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:22:33] I'm not leaving because I want to sin. I'm not leaving because I. Because I had even had friends who would post a picture of them in a bikini. And when I was still active, everyone would get together and gossip about them and say, oh, she's. She's falling away.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:22:48] This narrative of falling away, of being tempted to sin was so potent that before I would post a single picture of me with a coffee cup, I was going to post a very decisive, I guess, manifesto of my lack of faith or disbelief so that it was clear. I am leaving because I no longer believe in the truth claims of the Mormon Church. I am leaving because I no longer believe that this is truth. I am not leaving for all these other lies, for a bikini or because I want to wear or yes, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Like you would throw your eternal salvation away for a beer. You know what I mean? Or a little weed. Like people. It's. It's so silly.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:23:29] I served a year and a half long mission. I paid to serve and I was very faithful. And yet now the idea of a morning cup of coffee is so powerful. There's no way that I can resist the temptation. It's just. It's very ridiculous. But it's. People believe it.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] And many Mormons can't tease out the difference between. I decided it was no longer true. And so I drink coffee because why not? Versus oh, see, they're drinking coffee. That must be the slippery slope that led them out of the church, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:24:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] They can't tease out those differences.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:04] Cause versus correlation.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Correlation versus causation. Yeah, that's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:24:08] Yes. And I also, I think too, the book takes what is ex Mormonism, which is often a really angry and harsh and lonely space. And trying to reframe it in the book to be, yes, painful, but also a beautiful opportunity to learn about yourself in a really fresh eyes wide open sort of way. And to take nothing for granted and to take nothing at its word and to have this new frame of mind. Almost like if you've ever seen those videos or those.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:47] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:24:47] Videos of colorblind kids putting on the colorblind glasses and they're seeing color for the first time and they just start to cry. That's how I felt after I left the world.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:56] Or the church. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Or like when they turn on the cochlear implants.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:59] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:24:59] People can hear from the crap. And the babies get to hear the moms and dads voices for the first time. And they're so beautiful to just see. It's also the Truman Show. He walks out, you know, seeing instead of this as a terrible loss, instead as putting the glasses on that let you see color for the first time. And that leaving the church is also. Is horrible and awful and lonely. But it is also putting those glasses on and realizing how much you've been missing or cutting out of your life in the name of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Have you seen Pleasantville, the movie Pleasantville?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:25:31] I haven't.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] So I have a list. Margi and I have a list of, like, faith crisis movies. Truman show, the Matrix, Tangled, Small Foot. You know, there's a bunch of really good ones, but one of them is Pleasantville. Oh, the Village. I say the Village. The Village is amazing. But. But Tangled. Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:52] Pleasantville.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Pleasantville. The movie starts out in black and white. And then when one woman sort of awakens to her own inner voice, she turns color. And the rest of the movie is still black and white. And then slowly, her turning color leads to other people turning color as well. So there's actually a movie that literally reflects what you're talking about. Check it out. I think you'll find value.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:26:18] I'll add it to my list.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] Pleasantville. Pleasantville.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:26:20] Yeah, I think too, in the book I just made it, as I said, a true topical guide. You can flip around, you can read a section, you can skip a section. And I think as a member, it's very important to be confronted with or As a person who's leaving, to be confronted with information that makes you uncomfortable, and to ask, why does that make me uncomfortable? Like, to say to a person who's recently left, pornography is okay, is very. It's very triggering. Like, that can be, for a lot of people, really, really difficult to hear. Or it's, you're not a bad person if you smoke weed or if you show your shoulders.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:26:57] You're still a good person and you should try it. Like, those ideas can feel dangerous as you're freshly leaving the church, because you've been so trained to believe that those things are sinful, that even reading that, even hearing someone express that feels dangerous, feels worrisome or anxiety inducing. And so I think even if you don't do anything from this book, I think confronting the idea of, maybe you should try gambling. Maybe you should try going to Vegas and having a fun night. You know, don't blow all your money, but maybe just try it. See if you like it, see if it's fun. See if you can have fun responsibly if you're interested.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:27:38] And even if you choose not to do that, which is fine, considering the feelings and considering what bubbles up in your brain when you're confronted with that suggestion, helps you understand more about yourself. And if you're triggered or if you feel, I would never have a night in Vegas because it's bad to question, why is it bad? Is it bad because I personally think that that's a waste of time and potentially dangerous or unhealthy? Or is it bad because I've been told that's bad my whole life and so unquestioningly, I believe it's bad?

John Dehlin [00:28:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:12] What I love about this is the value of turning inward. And you're actually giving prompts. Do you mind if I share a couple?

John Dehlin [00:28:21] And that's going to be point two, by the way.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:28:23] Oh, the prompt. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:24] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Turning inward is point.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:26] Yes.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:28:26] So that was just.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] But still. Make your point. I just want to.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:29] The point being that throughout the book, this is. You're clearly getting to know Alyssa. You're gaining information. But what I love about it is that it also is this exercise to turn inward. It's divided by subject. Here's like clothing. There are these little places where you reflect and write. And so you know, it will say, consider the following questions and reflect on your feelings. Note the feelings bubbling up as you at the prospect of swearing, gambling, throwing away your garments. So here are some example prompts, just so you get a feel for how thoughtful it is, how Is the concept of sin influenced your decisions and actions in life?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:09] If you were to get a tattoo, piercing, or change your image in some way, what would it symbolize for you? How could this impact your self image and confidence? What changes do you want to make as you redefine your image and appearance? So that's just an example of how interactive the book is and how the book actually prompts you to have this sense of exploration and connection with yourself,

Alyssa Grenfell [00:29:33] which I think does lead in great perfectly to point number two, which is learning to trust yourself over someone in authority or over a church or over an organization.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Wait, well, really quickly can you just show the book one time? Can you discuss the little door? Because we missed that in the, in your outline.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:29:52] I love. I had a fellow ex Mormon actually design this for me, so thank you to him. So it's meant to just be a symbolize the Truman show, which is one of my favorite ex Mormon examples of the thought process and what it's like. So we have stairs, steps leading, and then out of the doorway is space and stars and a planet and the same, there's the same little symbol here on the spine just, just to make it like. I love the imagery of stepping up, becoming better, learning even the steps that are in the book to becoming more self fulfilled, more self actualized. And, and that through the doorway is not just a question mark, but is something awe inspiring and beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] And also like maybe you already said this, but, but the part one is for new Xmos, but part two is for anyone who's ever left. I wouldn't just say this church, but I'm already having people in the comments saying that they weren't Mormon, but they were part of another high demand religion and they bought the book and are finding value in it. So I want to make sure. And then I'll just say I. Because you said you proposed the possibility that pornography is good. I know there's going to be people that write and say you're, you know, you're saying pornography is good unqualifiedly. So I'm shutting off this podcast right now because pornography is evil. Do you want to. I know we're going to talk about sexuality later. Do you want to just quickly provide a disclaimer for that person that might be inclined to shut, shut this off completely from just that statement?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:31:31] Yeah, I think that there are so many aspects of pornography that are very problematic, like the question of consent, the question of violence against women, the question of being compensated for your creation or the film or you know, portrayal. How Creators are compensated for. This is often very disparate to how much money the people who post or have these. So there's a lot of moral, there's a lot of questions about pornography that are like, awful, that are truly should be something you consider, but I think that it's worthwhile to consider what aspects of pornography are damaging, are bad, are something that you should shy away from, and what aspects of it are worth engaging with or considering, or can.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:32:25] I think the question is, can you watch pornography ethically? And the question should not be pornography is point blank bad, everyone for everyone, all the time. And if you watch it, you're an evil human being, that you should hate yourself versus can you watch pornography ethically? And some people might say absolutely not. And some, I think a lot of people that we know, you know, it's the biggest industry in the world, do watch it. And so if you're going to watch it, how can you engage with us in an ethical way?

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Nice. Okay, thanks.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:32:55] That's my disclaimer.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] All right.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:32:57] That's my disclaimer.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:58] And that's an example of how you show up in the book. I feel like you treat subjects like that. There's like a bit of an education piece or things to consider or. So that is the way the book is written as well.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] Yeah. And this is something that a binary orthodox religious worldview kind of can't understand, but, like, what does it mean to just shut out any mention of masturbation, pornography, drug use, alcohol use, sex work, whatever? The thing is, if a large percentage of people are doing it, how in the world, even more, does it make. Especially Mormons. Yeah, some would say Mormons lead the United States per capita in porn use. Like, there's pornhub evidence to suggest that. So if something is such a reality, I talked to a bishop recently whose stake president took him on a psychedelic journey. So the stake president is saying, bishop, let's go do psychedelics. Like, like if this swinging. I, I, I talked to a sex worker the other day discussing a possible podcast episode. And, and there's stake presidents and bishops visiting sex workers in Salt Lake Valley.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] So, so like, and, and some of

Alyssa Grenfell [00:34:15] the most repressed people are the most religious people because they have. Because I think religion creates an obsession within a person that makes something like pornography so much more alluring. Because the, the idea that it's bad or that they can't have it makes it more compelling.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:33] Right.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:34:34] And that's why some of the places where there's the worst sexual assault is, are the Places that religion is the most dominant.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] Yeah, yeah, so. So it's fine if you want to shut something off just because the topic is raised, but given the prevalence of all these things and even swinging non monogamy, I know of stake presidents and bishops who are in the swinging communities secretly. And so you can shut something off just because the topic is raised, but given the prevalence of all these things, including psychedelics, if you want to live in a world where you're educated and you can even, even if you're against all these things I just mentioned, you want to be able to navigate them as soon as your spouse or your kids or your loved ones are, you find out they're engaging in it, maybe stick around and don't just shut something off and listen about how to engage with these things responsibly. Sorry, I just had to add.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:35:24] Yeah, no, thank you. And I think too, it's a very Mormon idea or Mormon principle that ideas themselves are sins or ideas themselves are dangerous. That by hearing information about drugs it is almost as bad as participating in the drugs yourself. That hearing words, hearing the exchange of words, hearing a conversation is itself a sin. That's a very Mormon idea that you can't. That the words out of someone's mouth are deeply dangerous and inherently sinful. Yeah, you can listen to people talk about a topic without engaging in the topic yourself. But if you want to engage in the topic, hearing and consuming information about it is going to help you do that responsibly and is going to help you do that in a very educated and informed consent kind of way.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:16] Such a good point.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Yeah. Okay, now on to point two.

Finding Your Own Authority and Self-Trust

Alyssa Grenfell [00:36:20] Point two. So after I left, I wanted, I wanted so desperately for people to tell me what to do. I just wanted someone to tell me what, what is the purpose of life? What should I be doing? Give. I would ask anyone for advice and if they gave me advice, if they were willing to say, you should do this, I would almost always listen to their advice. I was so mentally trained to look outward for affirmation that it was really hard when I left that I could no longer pray, I could no longer speak to a bishop, I could no longer go to the scriptures.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:37:00] I was so used to outsourcing my personal choice making to outside authority that the idea of having to for the first time make my own choices was really intimidating because I had never looked internally for direction. And so even after I was out of the church, I really struggled with the idea of. I really wanted someone to just tell me what to do. Just Tell me who to be. Just tell me what's good, like how to be a good person.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:37:33] And I think pining after authority, pining after someone to take over my life and tell me what to do. That feeling was really strong. And I think a lot of people, after they leave the church, look for another thought pattern. Another church, another group, another organization, another guru, another guru that's going to say, I will think for you. I will tell you what's good. I will tell you how to be good. I will tell you what things to do in your life. Because it feels so safe. It feels so safe to be able to outsource your personal decision making to somebody who you perceive has more power than you.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] And this could be someone who does reiki. This can be someone who does foot zoning. This can be a boss, this can be a yoga instructor, another pastor of another church. Yep.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:38:29] Anyone, Anyone who will come along in your life to say, hey, I actually do know more than you, and you should listen to me without question. That feels really safe. Because our Mormon minds are trained to want that, to, to hunger after absolute certainty. We want certainty so badly. I want to know my. That I'm on the right path. I want to know that what I'm doing is true.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:38:55] That letting go of that feeling and looking inward was something I had never done at all. I'd never, I'd always asked, what does God want me to do? I never asked, what do I want me to do? And learning to shift from what does God want me to do? To what do I want me to do?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:39:14] Was, I think, for me, the most difficult aspect of leaving Mormonism. Because suddenly every choice had to be made by myself without the promptings of God. And so I, I think these appeals to authority, like if I go to a college, like if I go to a college and get a degree, that'll give me authority or that will give me enough credence that I can feel confident. Or if I find a new church or even when I, When I was working on the book, I really wanted to have. This book is self published. I really wanted to have a traditional publisher, because in the writing community, having a traditional publisher is viewed as the, you know, the most important aspect of the book is having this, this traditional organization step down off their pedestal and say, we've chosen you to be good enough for us.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:40:10] And that gives you legitimacy. So it's not your ideas in the book, it's not you as a person, it's not you as the author, but the publishing house is what's giving you legitimacy. It's the church that gives you legitimacy. It's the organization that makes you feel legitimate. I think it's very difficult to grant ourselves the permission to feel legitimate without looking for an outside source for some outside traditional source of power to say we're legitimate.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:40:37] And I think it's very empowering to say I am my own authority, I am my own proof of power. I am my own guiding star. I like saying I am the God of my own world because I get to choose what I do with my life. And having that shift is really empowering and beautiful, I think.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:00] Do you find what's challenging about that is kind of oftentimes where this hits in your journey? Because I think for many people coming out where you're feeling that sense of betrayal of an organization, that your own trust in yourself is hit in that betrayal, you're like, wait, how did I not see this? How did I not? And so it presents a challenge because as we're making this flip to kind of turn inward is it's at a time where our self trust may feel low. Do you agree?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:41:35] Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like if I was wrong about this, what if my next step is wrong too? And I think the way you work yourself out of that is that you choosing the church, especially for people who were born in the church, actually never happened. You never did choose the church. Your parents chose the church. You were a very, you were probably a good kid that wanted to please your parents. If you, you know, I think being raised in a religion where you sing, I love to see the temple, praise to the man. I don't know that children raised in the church ever made a truly conscious decision to become Mormon.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:42:08] They just were. And so if you're leaving and feeling like, oh, how did I make this choice that was so wrong, I would say, I would question if you truly made the choice to begin with. I think maybe for the, for converts it's a little bit different, but for converts who converted in adulthood, they probably, I would almost guess they would need the book less because they've had a lot of exposure to a lot of the topics I cover. And I, I think if you've only. If you spent. I think the longer time you spent in the church, the more likely it is it has dominance over your. Your identity.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:39] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:42:40] Born in the church, 20 years in the church, convert, converted, you know, whatever it is, the longer you spend, the more time you're going to need to break away from it.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] And I'll Just say that the complexity of this point about developing your own intrinsic internal sense of authority versus ex sort of outsourcing your authority is two things. You ex Mormons can really mess up their lives like they can people. Some people become responsible alcohol drinkers, maybe most, but some become alcoholics and some develop healthy sexuality and then others blow up their marriage with, you know, and that, of course, the immediate response is, well, that happens inside Mormonism all the time. There's no difference internally or out internally. But we have been raised to fear that God is all wise and that we are.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:38] We.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] We aren't smart enough and capable enough to make responsible decisions or our passions are so strong that they'll pull us down. Yeah, our passions of sex or wanting drugs or food or whatever it is. And so we're, we're not really taught to believe that we have the wisdom to healthily navigate a life.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:44:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] But you're saying all of us do, or some of us do, or many of us do.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:44:08] I think that we need to. I think it's desert, it's deserved. I think we need to consider other aspects of our lives that are dangerous or are risky that we participate in as Mormons, without question. For example, driving a car. Driving a car is actually quite dangerous. Thousands of people die in car accidents daily, but. Yeah, daily. But you don't see people raising posters up and car use. You don't see people saying, have you ever, have you ever really considered that you should be driving this car? It's really dangerous.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:44:43] You don't see people in mass giving up their cars. Most people, you know, if there's public transit being put in, a lot of people complain about it. And so there are lots of risks in our lives that are just as risky as drug use, even pregnancy. Women are heavily encouraged to get pregnant and have as many pregnancies as they can handle. Pregnancy is very dangerous, not just because a woman may die, but health risks. The level of complications that come with pregnancy is very high. And you don't hear people at the pulpit saying, yes, get pregnant, but consider the risks of pregnancy and how to.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:45:20] And consider the ways you can have a stopgap to, you know, prepare against those risks, ensure safeguards against those risks. You don't hear people saying, let's consider the risks of pregnancy. Even though as far as health goes, as far as life and death goes, pregnancy is very dangerous. But nobody ever questions that. Nobody ever puts that on a more. On a scale of safety or risk, it's unquestionably, yes, pregnancy is good. No Matter what.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] Yeah, the other point that I think draws people to gurus, and I know ex Mormons that think Joseph Smith was a fraud, but they'll go to like a medium to talk to their dead loved ones or a medium that says that they can communicate with their guardian angels, you know, and, and I'm not disparaging any of that. I'm just saying this desire for an external authority is really powerful. And I think the other complicating factor here is complexity. Like when you go at the Mormon Church, you may love or hate its behavioral guidelines, but it's got the list and you just follow it. You say, what?

John Dehlin [00:46:26] What do I need to do? Oh, here's the list. Let me read it. Okay, now I know what to do. When you're an ex religious person or ex Mormon, you got to figure out what type of what is. What are coffees, which ones do I want? What about cannabis? What about marriage? What about honesty? What about my purpose in life? Like, how about raising my kids? What do I do? What's moral? What do I tell my kids? There's like 10,000 things you have to think through and then decisions you have to make that are so simplified when you just join some church and do what they tell you to do.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Some people are just overwhelmed by that level of effort and complexity and they seek the simplicity and the efficiency of someone just telling them what to do.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:47:11] Yeah, I think that that's how we end up though, in a life like mine where I, I really actively avoided any sort of choice or dream to. I avoided pursuing things in the name of my faith. And yes, I think sometimes when we choose safety, we give up opportunity and we give up what we could have had if we were willing to put the effort in to discover ourselves and to discover what path is going to be good. And even for me personally, if I make a mistake now, which I do, I. I would rather have my mistakes belong to me and be mistakes that I made instead of mistakes that I made because I outsourced my choice making to some organization.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:47:59] Because the truth is no one knows your life as well as you do. No one knows what you want as well as you do. And the only person who has to actually live your life is you. And so if somebody tells you, you should do this, you should have this job, you should try this, they don't have to do it. They're not the ones that are going to be working that job. They're not the ones that are going to be having those kids. It's going to be you. And so it might seem easier at the front end to just say, okay, my dad told me I should do this.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:48:30] My church said I should do this. So I just will. But then when you're the one living in your own life, they're not the ones that have to face the repercussions or consequences or heartaches that come from the advice that they gave you. You're the one that's going to be living in that life. And so choosing the life that you want is at least, you can say, at least this is what I wanted. Even if I make a mistake, at least this is the mistake that came as, as a. As a outcome of the choice that I made to begin with.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] There's a comment that just came in. Funky Fresh writes, I'd love to see John sit down with America's top medium, Matt Frazier. He'd be blown away. But yes, Joseph was a fraud, but there are individuals with the medium gift. I've even been able to give readings. Okay, I'll just say this really quickly because I don't want to get sidetracked.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Maybe, I don't know, maybe there are mediums and my point wasn't to tell people they're wrong to go seek mediums or that mediums in and of themselves are evil or. My point is anytime somebody tells you they have access to the divine that you don't, it puts you in a vulnerable position of being manipulated or abused it. Because maybe the person has it, but most often these people are shown to be frauds or just making stuff up or, or just being no different than you. And so you put yourself at risk to misdirection or abuse the minute that you believe that somebody else is able to access divine power about your life.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] So go to your mediums all you want. Go to your person that talks to your guardian angels all you want. Just beware that there are risks associated with the giving someone else your power, whether it's a religion or a partner or a yoga instructor or a podcaster or an author. Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:31] Yeah, thanks for that. I was going to say in this idea of connecting more with yourself, which I love to. Don't you find that what it looked like within Mormonism? There was a very perfectionistic way of how we related to ourselves. Right. It was like this idea of mistakes and, and being the best version of ourselves at all times that I feel like shifts. Do you have you found that this shifts where it's almost like the, the process and end goal of connecting with yourself. It's Just it's different than Mormonism. Like it's much more exploratory.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:18] Getting to know yourself and your own preferences and desires as well as. So in that way you're kind of gaining data on yourself as well as kind of as opposed to being perfect or avoiding like a mistake. And let's just be real, like a mistake is basically something you don't know. So that's all of us, like we don't know a ton of things. So a mistake is like just how we're made in the world. It's inevitable. And it's like things learned.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:51] And then it's kind of like the objective. Instead of perfectionism or not making a mistake is like living your values or you know, that that becomes more of the thing. So that shift, have you noticed a shift away from this idea of perfectionism? A fear of being flawed or making a mistake and having that affect your self trust as opposed to like. Yeah, now I'm actually exploring myself, I'm getting data on myself and I'm just trying to live a life that I feel connected to or that reflects my values right now.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:52:26] Yeah, I think you're reminding me of the talk good, better, best. How I don't know if you all remember that, how even if you're making a good choice as a Mormon, you could be making a better one. Optimize, optimize. And that talk really wrecked me in a lot of ways. Ways because even if I was doing something good, I felt like almost a good. Good is sin. If there's a better and best, that's like telestial, terrestrial. You know that those are the three kingdoms. I don't want to be good. I don't even want to be better. I want to be the best Mormon I can be.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:52:55] And so even within perfectionism, you can rank your perfectionism and you can push your perfectionism to be even more perfect. And after leaving, it's very hard to detach yourself from this value black and white morality, this higher, you know, perfectionism to maybe whether I choose A, B or C. It's not about versions of good, better, best. Maybe A, B or C. I should be directed by the questions of what will make me the happiest, what will make me the most fulfilled, what will do the most good in the world.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:29] Those types of questions that really help you self reflect on, on these options. Those are the questions we should be asking, I think. And it should be a questioning of the, the self over a questioning of an appeal to a moral authority.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Love it. All right. That's points one and two. What's point three?

Deciding Whether to Stay or Leave

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:51] Point three is how to decide if you should stay in the church or leave.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] That's a big one.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:53:57] That's a really big one. And as we said at the top, I am not, I am not in the book trying to necessarily persuade anyone to stay or leave, but also helping or. Because I felt like that for a period of time, I questioned. I lost my faith. And when you lose your faith, you have to look at your life and ask, how much of this am I about to lose? If I let the genie out of the bottle, if I lose my faith, if I fully walk away, how many things in my life disappear? And that picture of loss, I think, keeps a lot of people in and it pushes people to be physically and mentally out for many years.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] And that's called pimo P I M O on the, on Ex Mormon Reddit.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:54:48] Basically, yes. And I think in my life, when I make a decision out of fear, typically I regret that decision. I think if you're making a decision to stay in out of fear of what will come into your life, I totally get it. I understand. And I think that's, I think if that's your ultimate choice, I think it makes sense. But I think if we can make choices out of a place of courage and hope and, and desire for what's going to be, what am I going to want five years from now? What am I going to want 10 years from now? Who will I want to be 30 years from now?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:55:26] Will I. If I have this period of my life where I have to disengage from the church and walk away, it's gonna be really painful, but in 20 years, you'll probably be really glad that you, you got away, that you made the decision out of courage and hope.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:55:40] And so I, in the book, I have a series of questions, and these are questions that I, I asked myself or that I reflected on as I was leaving and I was going to maybe read some of them, if that's okay with you guys.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:55:56] And I think asking yourself these questions might clarify if leaving is something that you're ready to do, that you want to do, that's going to be worthwhile, it says so. This is one of the reflect and write sections that are throughout the book. And I also have journal pages at the end for people who, if you're, if you're wanting to write or just, you know, write a little bit about what you're thinking, it says, what do you fear? What do you fear will happen if you Are honest about what you believe and don't believe? Can you conceal your true self from the people closest to you?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:56:33] How will it feel to be dishonest about your true convictions with your spouse, parents and friends? Are you willing to prioritize other people's versions of who you should be over the chance to explore and discover your true self?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:56:45] What would a lifetime of participation in the church cost you? Are you willing to hide all activity not authorized by the church? This means concealing anything from drinking coffee or to a potential relationship with someone of the same sex. This means lying about participating in Sunday activities that are not approved. This means forgoing a tattoo or hiding any alcohol when your family comes over.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:57:08] If you do not believe, if you do not believe but want to stay in the church, Are you still willing to continue to wear garments daily, hold a calling, go to church every Sunday, attend the temple often, bear your testimony, give church talks and pay 10% of your income to the church's tithing? How close can your relationships with loved ones stay when you must hide every step you take outside of what a good Mormon should do?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:57:30] Will you bless and baptize current or future children into a church you no longer believe is the truth or lie to a family member about a baptism taking place that never happened? Will you send your children away for a two year mission when you believe the basis of the gospel is false? Will you lie about their temple marriage too?

Alyssa Grenfell [00:57:48] And so this, these questions are rhetorical in many ways, but kind of meant to just envision, if you choose to stay in the church, if you have a lifetime in the church, what is that going to cost you? And if you no longer believe, just envision what your life will look like as a, you know, Mormonism is everything. Mormonism is church callings, tithing, temple worship, garment wearing. I think if you no longer believe, maintaining that is really costly to your mental health and to your identity and to how much you have to conceal in order to maintain that.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:58:36] And so I think these are the questions that I asked myself and that I envisioned happening in the future. If I fake it till I make it, if I just hope that my testimony comes back, if I hope that my faith returns, maybe it never does. It probably never will.

Alyssa Grenfell [00:58:54] Am I going to baptize my kids into this church? Can I do that? And so these are the questions I asked to help myself think about what my life in the church would look like if I no longer had a testimony.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] Yeah, yeah, I think those are really good questions and it's a great introduction to this very complex topic. Margi and I lost our faith in 2001, and we didn't leave the Mormon Church until they excommunicated us. Me, but us in 2015. Now, we. There were a lot of reasons why we stayed. We stayed.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] Number one, I think I was terrified that I couldn't raise happy, healthy, moral kids without Mormonism or without some sort of organized religion. That was probably the main reason. But then secondarily, I just. Because the church was made for me, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the weekly seeing people. I enjoyed the hymns, the. The sense of awe and the inspiration that the music gave me.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] And, you know, I knew that no church was probably true. And so this is my tribe. I kind of took on the progressive Jew mindset of, like, this is my people. And that worked for us for a long, long time. But I will say that it was incredibly stressful for my psychology that I was constantly tormented about, wow, another LGBT people. Just another LGBTQ person just died by suicide. Am I being complicit in the harm? Oh, another mixed faith marriage couple just got divorced. By giving my name to the church, by even giving money or volunteering for the church, am I complicit in the harm that the church does as much good as it does or as much good as it does for me?

John Dehlin [01:00:46] What about the harm that it's doing to a lot of other people? And I'm only bringing all that up because, over time, became incredibly stressful for me to go week after week carrying that cognitive dissonance and that cognitive load inside myself.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] Having said that, there are, you know, the. One of the first accountants I ever had for Mormon stories, I was living in Logan. He's, you know, he loved my podcast. He did my accounting for free. He's like, oh, yeah, my wife doesn't know. I don't believe. My kids don't know. I don't believe. And I'm faking it to my wife and I'm faking it to my kids because I'm 100% sure my wife will divorce me if I leave the church. And I don't want. I don't want to break up my family.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] There's another example of, like, several church employees who are just like, I'm 20 years into my career. I work for the Mormon Church. I'm a CES instructor. I'm an institute teacher, seminary teacher. No one's going to hire me at six figures. And so I'm just going to wait this out and retire because I just can't afford to lose my job. So this is. I just want to always give space for people who are in very tough situations.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] And there's also people that are mentally ill. And for them, the church helps keep their wheels on their wagon. And that's, that's what makes for me this decision incredibly complex for some people. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:17] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:02:17] I think, I think of the allegory of Plato's Cave where he's in the cave, he's happy in the cave, and then when he leaves the cave, he realizes, oh, there was a lot more out here than I expected.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:02:31] And I think sometimes when we're in the church and we're happy in the church, it can feel like this is the best it will ever be. This is. This is the most. This is my six figure job. This is. This is the best my marriage could ever be. This is, you know, we might. And like I agree with you, I validate anyone who chooses to stay in the church. I think that's your choice. I think it's worth considering.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:02:55] If you leave, could it be. Could it be better? Could your life. Is it possible to even know what you're missing by having what. I mean, Mormonism was the thing in my life, was the number one, was the largest, was the hugest, most overpowering part of my life that was through every fiber of my being.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:03:17] And I have rarely met an ex Mormon who says, I'm so. I regret leaving so much. This was the worst decision of my life.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] I wish I could go back.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:03:26] I wish I could go back to

John Dehlin [01:03:27] almost no ex Mormon ever.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:29] Right?

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:31] I think for me, when I'm thinking back to how you were talking about us staying in that in between kind of space for so long and attending, something that I think about is that I was out. I feel like a little bit more than you. Once you told me I kind of had a different personal relationship with the church after that point. What kept me going was this idea of our children and wanting our kids to be able to have.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:04] At that time we lived in Logan, quite an insular community that I wanted them to have this sense that their journey was theirs, that we weren't overriding their experience. The irony of that. And we never know what we don't know at the time. And so I have compassion around this. I just think, again, this is a complicated thing. But in my mind, John and I would sometimes volley going to church to support whatever children. We were a mixed faith family.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:39] And so we would attend sacrament meeting with whatever child was attending at that time. So I had many years where I Was not. I was no longer believing, but I went in a limited sense to support a child that was going. And I think what's so interesting about that now is our kids are so much older, is that, you know, we have a number of children who identify as lgbtqia. And that this thing that I thought that I was giving them, in retrospect, they've come to us as parents and said how damaging it was, and so that they received all these messages that they're now trying to work through with their own identities.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:26] And so it is tricky and we all have our own reasons for doing what we do and for staying in spaces. But I do really feel like no matter how best we make a decision, the hard part is we don't know what we don't know at the time. And so a heavy dose of just sort of compassion. But I really like your approach of asking yourself the questions and giving yourself space to really feel out your own answers, you know, within that and as much freedom and choices as you can allow yourself.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:06:07] Yeah, I think you reminded me of just the thought. If you, you know, if you as a person no longer believe in the church and you're still taking your kids and someday they come to that conclusion, I don't believe in the church.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:06:23] How will they feel knowing that you took them to a church that you believed was false? I think your kids will someday be adults. It's worth asking, if I'm taking them, why? Is it for the morals? Is it for the community? Is it for the good? And are there other organizations where they can learn those things that aren't as problematic as what Mormonism teaches?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:06:49] Because ultimately Mormonism is not, is not like, go to church every once in a while, feel good for a bit, go home, enjoy your family. It is a, let's go to the temple and wear the robes of the priesthood and do the patriarchal grip and wear garments every day. And that is the heart of Mormonism. And so if you're taking your kids to the church, the goal for the church is for them to go to the temple, to do the endowment, to serve a two year mission, to do the same when they marry in the temple.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:07:23] So I think by taking kids to church, you're putting them on that path. And if that's not the path that you envision for them, if you just want them to learn the morals, to have the good, I think the discrepancy in how the church will ask what the church will ask them to do and be versus what you want them to take from church are very different.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:07:44] And so recognizing potentially the discrepancy between those two things and also recognizing that there are other opportunities and organizations where those things can be learned. There's so many, so many good kids outside of Mormonism. As a teacher for a very long time, most of my students weren't Mormon. Once I left Utah, tons of really amazing, spectacular children come out of secular homes, religious, you know, lots of different religious denominations.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:08:11] You don't need Mormonism to raise good kids. And I think it's also. When I left, when me and Jackson were talking about our future family, I had. I think Mormonism really teaches you that only Mormons can make good kids, that you need the church in order to teach and help have kids be on this good path. And I asked him, you know, what if we leave and our kids end up as drug addicts? Which is what I pictured, you know, as an active member. Happens to kids who aren't members.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:08:42] And he thought for a second, and he. I remember it so clearly. Asked, what happens if we stay in the church and our kids are gay? What will that.

John Dehlin [01:08:52] Or drug addicts or drug addicts. Anyway, Utah has a massive prescription drug, you know, abuse problem.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:08:58] Like, yes. So, I mean, it's not gonna safeguard against everything. And so you have to ask if it's not a true safeguard against all of these things if it happens to Mormon kids too, is the good I'm hoping my kids glean from the church. Can I find that elsewhere? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] This is a total aside, but I would love to do a study of non Mormon men in Utah versus Mormon men. Active, faithful Mormon men in Utah. I would be willing to bet money that and this is just a random thing that active Mormon men in Utah look at more porn than non Mormon men in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] It. You know, so, like, you just don't know the devil you're dancing with sometimes. And I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying, like, there's a lot of mental health problems, a lot of dysfunction within orthodox Mormonism. And the final thing I'll just say is back to the point you made. I made the decision that I could not live with myself if I lied to my kids, raise them in something that I knew was false, and then when they're 30 or 40 and they had decided to go on a mission, get married, forego education, give all this time and money to the church, at some point in their future, they would discover that I had lied to them and deceived them. I just realized I couldn't probably live with myself if I had done that.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:10:20] And leaving the church is so hard that. And so many people are leaving the church that you also have to ask yourself, who's going to do the hard work? Is it going to be me or is it going to be my kids? Because if I. If I know it's false, if I know it's not true, and I stay in for the kids and someday, now they're married, now they have kids, now they have to get divorced, now they have to, you know, face every single implication that comes with leaving. And I've now put that on them as their responsibility.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:53] Just to close out this idea. One of the most important beliefs I felt like I deconstructed that was so pivotal to how I parented was the belief that my children were at a scarcity, naturally to be moral. Because I feel like really, religions benefit. They're the ones that create the scarcity on a level so that only they can fill it. And so. And the minute I was able to kind of research that really look into, have experiences, connect with people, reflect on my childhood where I largely. I was on the east coast and not surrounded by Mormons, all the good people I knew. And once I was able to and look at my children, experience my children as whole and beautiful, abundant, like abundantly good.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:52] You know, I was able to relax a little bit. So I think also, you know, sometimes the beliefs we deconstruct are a lot deeper. They're. They're very like, rooted in this sense of scarcity versus abundant, Particularly with us as humans and our children when it comes to kind of this innate goodness, as opposed to like. Yeah, without it, you have nothing. Without. Without religion, you are nothing. You are depraved and you are, you know, just destined for evil things. Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:12:25] I think it really steals humanity away. The idea that from me to you, that for me to be good to you, I need a God to tell me that it's actually really twisted that human beings can't. At their own face, at their own value, just from human to human, we are unable to engage with each other in moral good ways, but that we need a higher power to tell us that. That is so such a twisted idea to me. But it's what religion asserts. It's. Religion says you need me to teach you to be good. And I just think that children, Children don't need goodness to be taught to them.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:08] I think that the church teaches them a lot of guilt. But I think humans, I think we can trust that humans are at Their heart good, looking for connection, looking for closeness, looking for kindness, wanting kindness, and that, that, that can be enough to have a good society.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] Absolutely beautiful. All right.

Coming Out to Family and Navigating Relationships

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:31] Oh, the last question I was gonna ask, I forgot this point, was a question that really shook me about this question of staying in the church or leaving, losing my testimony. I think it might be. I don't know if it's in the CES letter or if I just read it on online, but it was the question, if the church isn't true, when would you want to find out?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:13:54] And if the church isn't true, when would you want to do something about it? And I think when I heard that question, it really struck me because it feels like if I keep ignoring this information, if I keep ignoring historical inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon, if I keep ignoring the moral questions of the church, the homophobia, will I be glad I ignored it? And then in 10 years, I have to deal with this, or will it. Is it worth it to just take the plunge now?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:14:27] So number four, point. Number four is strategies for coming out. Coming out to your friends and family. Because I do feel like it's a coming out experience of its own, this revelation. We have to figure out how to finally break the news that feels so devastating to our family.

John Dehlin [01:14:50] And I'll just say the stereotypical way that many ex Mormons historically have tried to deal with this coming out is to just write some big old letter email, to write their own version of the CES letter, or just at some big family event to just start, like, I don't want to say throwing up, but just like, purging all the historical problems of Joseph Smith and with the church and polygamy, to just, like, let it all out either in letter form or an email form or at Thanksgiving. And. And sometimes that can really damage relationships from the start. So it's complicated.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:15:33] Yeah. And as like I said with every chapter in this book, these are suggestions, these are ideas, these are. This is a sounding board. This is a friend to talk to and think through different options. This is such a difficult thing to do that there truly is no way to do it right. Because it's going to be hard, no matter.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:15:54] And messy, no matter which option or which route you choose. So for me, telling my mom was the biggest, was the thing I was the most worried about. And I knew that she. I knew that she was going to take it really hard.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:16:13] And she always, I think I knew that she needed to see me wrestle with my faith, but I also knew I didn't want to break the news to her or talk to her about it till I had already made the decision that I was 100% sure because I knew if I told her I'm questioning my faith and then I take it back, she would remember that for my entire life and it wasn't going to be worth it to question my faith vulnerably in front of her.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:16:45] So essentially, once I truly lost my faith, once I completely stopped going to church, I. I almost like, set myself back six months in her mind and said, hey, mom, I'm. I'm really starting to question the church. Even though I already was out, I knew I needed to essentially give her a Runway of grieving.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:17:08] I needed. I needed. I think I knew she needed to see me struggle. She needed to see me read the scriptures. She need. Like I wanted. I wanted to preserve my relationship with her. And so I was willing to essentially engage with this idea that I had kept from her previously of my. Of my true faith struggle. And so I, you know, I began talking to her almost, you know, every night about my faith crisis and reading scriptures. And I finally broke the news about six months after I finally chose.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:17:46] I finally chose to leave the church. And then I struggled with her for six months, and then I told her I was. I fully was leaving the church. And even though that felt a little bit disingenuous, that was just the strategy I used for that relationship because I felt she needed. That's what she needed in order to maintain her respect for me.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:18:07] And we. We lived far away at the time. So I think had she been maybe geographically closer to me, she might have been questioning, like, why aren't you going to church anymore? But almost I. That that's just one of the options is the slow burn option.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:18:23] This idea of over a very long period of time, you're essentially setting up your family to accept that you've left, but never having to have a totally faithful and then suddenly, totally unfaithful. Very jarring experience, Shocking experience. Introducing almost like the nugget of, hey, I'm questioning. I'm questioning more. I only go once a week or once a month to church.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:18:50] Like having. Having a really long window where they can start to accept that this is happening. I think in many ways helped our relationship stay at least somewhat close throughout that process versus dropping this bomb on her that I think would have left her so reeling that she would have had a hard time staying really close to me throughout that process.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:19:18] And so I think that's one strategy people can use to Almost grow the seed of. Hey, I'm leaving the church into this I've left the church tree is letting it progress really slowly. Even if you've already made up your mind. But allowing them to see your struggle, I think can help them accept that at the very least it wasn't easy for you. At the very least, you gave it your all. Because I think sometimes that's what they need to see versus this. The bomb. Dropping the bomb.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] I have to say, the idea of my kids, adult kids, even worse, having to sort of like distort reality out of care and concern for my feelings as a parent is really disturbing to me. I'm reminded of the book Margi introduced to me. Adult children of emotionally immature parents. And I'm not talking about your mom, I've never met your mom.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] But like the idea of my kids lying to me and hiding things from me because they're worried that if they tell me the truth that I won't be able to deal with it. That's actually in 2024, a parental nightmare for me.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] Being alive is its own, is a burden enough, especially for kids. You know, adult kids these days. I would be horrified if my kid felt like they couldn't just tell me the truth and that I wasn't emotionally mature enough to just now, number one, deal with it and number two, love them unconditionally.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:20:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:47] And so it makes me sad though, even the. As a parent, the idea of even floating this idea makes me sad. But I think it's shows a lot of compassion on your part. There's, There are competing values here. One is honesty or authenticity and authenticity. And the other is compassion. And you literally, I don't know, at least partly, seem to have been driven by compassion for your mom. Now maybe it was also a desire to minimize the pain that she might inflict on you.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:19] Yeah. Or that you might feel at witnessing her in distress and feeling like you're the cause.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] But the classic example I have is like the 90 year old grandparent dying of cancer. Do you sit them down and tell them you lost your faith when you were their favorite grandkid? There's, there's a withholding of information out of compassion.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:21:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] That I think is an important thing to consider.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:21:44] And I think too I had, you know, what does it cost me to do that? It costs me, you know, I, I was, I was still trying out coffee, I was still trying out having drinks with my friends. I was still, I still gave up wearing garments before that. It didn't, it wasn't. It wasn't costing me a lot. I wasn't repressing so much of myself to just have these weekly phone calls with her.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:22:07] What it would have cost me, though, to drop the bomb, I think, is potentially our entire relationship. And so to me, in choosing this approach with her, it was about weighing the risks and rewards or the costs and benefits of what am I going to lose if I am immediately as authentic as possible versus what will I lose or gain if I do this route of letting her see the struggle and respect me and grieve slowly instead of having to do this all in one night. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:46] What I love is this is. This is the slow burn is one approach you offer. There are a lot of approaches and each approach kind of has strengths and harder aspects to it. Like I don't. So it's really about finding the approach that fits best with your circumstances.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:23:05] Yes. And I also talk too about when you're considering how to tell your family or if to tell your family, just the idea of truly living your life for yourself versus living your life for your family, living your life even for your spouse.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:23:20] I think I know personally people who have put off telling their family in the name of keeping the peace, only for it to really blow up in their face later on. And so sometimes it's easier to use avoidance as a way to keep yourself safe.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:23:40] But often, you know, when they discover a bottle of wine in your, you know, cabinet, or when they discover they come in and there's coffee, something coffee in the trash can, some other blow up like that, maybe end up exploding the secret. Anyways, finding some social media post, seeing you tagged in a bar, these things can. These things might still be the way they find out. And it's better if you made. If you've made the choice to leave, I think to come forward and be as honest in whatever way you choose and to not continue to try to live secretly in secrecy to keep the peace with your family.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's. And I should add, in addition to this amazing book, it's probably worth mentioning for those who are just really seeking support. Margi and I and Natasha put a podcast together called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis and we have like over 70 hours of free coaching and support for people who are navigating a faith crisis. And I mentioned that because we do like three hours on how to come out to believing family and friends. The biggest piece of advice that I have is to make them feel safe whatever you do, if they feel threatened by you, if they feel afraid by you, they're more likely to cut you off, to restrict your access to shun you, et cetera.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] If you do your best to make them feel not threatened, to make them feel safe, to make them feel like you respect their beliefs and are never going to try and change it, not only are they most likely to treat you best, they're actually more open to the issues that maybe caused you to doubt or question once they're at ease and calm and don't feel like you're coming at them. But whenever you come at them with a list of 500 flaws of Joseph Smith or 600 things that make the church untrue, their defenses immediately go up and you can experience the backfire effect where they actually defend their faith more strongly than they would have otherwise.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] And you don't want to strengthen their faith, surely. So do your best to make them feel like you're never going to attack their faith, never going to try and undermine their faith and like you respect them. That's.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:26:05] Yeah, yeah, I think two, as you're describing that process, I think it's really important as people are beginning to tell their family, beginning to tell the people in their life to have some friend or some source of support that will support you throughout this process. And so I suggest in the book having a non member friend or having a therapist or just having someone who, you know, let that person, that support person you've chosen, let them know, hey, I'm gonna call my mom and talk to her, can you call me after to make sure I'm okay? I love that because the idea that in the most heart wrenching part of your life that you have to go to your family and only be supportive to them while receiving no support in return.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] Not just no support, but opposition, opposition

Alyssa Grenfell [01:27:00] that you have to go to them and be. So you're tiptoeing, you're being so careful with what you have to say. You're trying so hard to just stay almost in their good graces so they still love you and then. But at the same time you're internally wrecked and it. And having no support given in return, no love given in, you know, hope, you know, I maybe love given in return, but it might be kind of like, oh, this, I'm so sad that you told me this, but I love you anyways. It's not going to be like, I'm so proud of you for making this really hard decision in your life.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:27:31] So having someone who is kind of outside of the game of Mormonism, outside of this realm of high demand Religion who can just be with you and love you and say, hey, that sucks. Like I, I'm, I am proud of you. If no one's saying this to you, at least I will say to you, I'm proud of you. I'm here for you. I love and support you unconditionally. I'm here for you in your time of need.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:27:55] So having, and even if, even if you don't have anyone that's a non member in your life, a therapist, even having someone on the ex Mormon message board to message with or to have a post up, having some way of after these big events to go back to a place of safety with someone that will support you I think is very important.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] Nice. Other points about coming out, I think

Mixed-Faith Marriage Challenges

Alyssa Grenfell [01:28:21] I have a section about marriage and

John Dehlin [01:28:26] that Coming out to your spouse.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:28:27] Yeah, coming out to your spouse. And I think this is probably the number one relationship that is the most stressful and anxious because your spouse is, you know, maybe you can kind of lie or you know, Ms. Re.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:45] Re.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:28:45] Re. Explain events to your parents because they no longer live with you. You can tell your siblings, whatever. It's very difficult to conceal from your spouse. It's very difficult to you kind of often. I think for a lot of people you're going to be real with your spouse in real time, which makes it more chaotic or potentially traumatic.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:05] And so I think too a lot of times people as they leave, they're leaving on at different paces. So maybe your spouse is still in, you're still out, but in six months your spouse may be questioning. And the idea of waiting for six months, I think is really difficult for some people because you don't, you actually don't know if they're ever going to start questioning or even if one person is like, I want to go, okay, like my husband, I want to go occasionally to church. This is still good in my life. And I was like, I'm totally out. I don't never want to go to church again.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:29:36] Even that discrepancy can be really mentally challenging to face within a marriage. And so just, just the idea of not just burning it all down in the heat of the moment, trying, and this is just a suggestion, you know, your relationship, don't stay in an abusive relationship or in a relationship that's causing you to feel, you know, suicidal or anything that's truly damaging. But if you have a really good relationship, except for this aspect of Mormonism, trying to keep yourself from just burning it all down, divorcing, calling it all off and seeing if there's a way to and there's a lot of really great mixed faith podcasts.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:30:21] How to come together in a way that you can still work through these difficult, this difficult phase of life because you never know. I mean, I have a close friend who her husband left three years before her. They stayed married because they had a good marriage. It was very difficult. But then three years later she also was ready to leave and she's really grateful that she is still with her spouse and she has a child with him and they're a really happy ex Mormon, post Mormon family.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:30:51] But those three years were really hard. And so I think considering if this relationship is good, if this relationship is happy, except for this one piece, are there ways we can work around it or through it and maybe even potentially someday this person will be at the same place I am really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:31:11] One huge pitfall or risk that I see is the non believing spouse in a mixed faith marriage doesn't want to disclose to their spouse and so they hide it from their spouse. And, and then they get in the habit of hiding things from their spouse. And whether it's taking off their garments when they're on business trips or having a drink of alcohol while you're on a business trip, or secretly not paying your tithing without telling your spouse, there's a couple real risks to that. One is that you grow apart. Well, one is that you learn to lie and you don't want to get in the habit of learning to lie to your spouse.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] The second is that you grow apart where if you do this over months and years and you're slowly keeping your most intimate stuff from your partner, you start growing apart and there's always a risk of you. It's like, oh, my wife doesn't understand or my husband doesn't understand, but this old high school friend from the Internet understands. Over time you can get in the habit of confiding in other people because you need an outlet and that can lead to explosive problems in the relationship. And then the third is that once you start hiding things from your spouse, inevitably they're probably going to catch you. And when they catch you now, you're not just dealing with the shock of the betrayal of them, learning that you've changed the deal, that you agreed to be temple married and faithful forever.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] Not only are they going to be upset that you've lost your faith and changed the contract or the agreement, but you're going to have to deal with the added problem of them feeling like you've been hiding and lying to them and and that's a double whammy or even a triple whammy of now what you're going to have to deal with. And then if there's infidelity, you're going to have to deal with that as well. So for all those reasons, it's this. It's this idea of avoiding some pain now for a world of pain and even pain that can be fatal to your relationship later. People sometimes think, I'll just avoid the pain and hide it.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] But what they're often doing is just compounding the pain and the risk and just pushing it off till later when later it may be too big to recover from. Whereas if you rip the band aid, which I think is one of the terms you use in your book sometimes, if you rip the band aid and deal with it through connection, through openness, through communication and negotiation, and I'll just add therapy, a really good marriage and mixed faith marriage coach or therapist, you can avoid a lot of future pain and problems. And I want to give just a quick recommendation. There's a really good podcast called Marriage on a Tightrope where Alan and Katie Mount have dozens of episodes and even a Facebook community and.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] And Marco Polo communities dedicated to supporting mixed faith Mormon marriages. Please check out Marriage on a Tightrope podcast and the Facebook community if you're in this situation.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:21] Yes. And as you alluded to, like the band aid rip is another of your ways to leave. That's another one that you kind of listen as an option.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:34:32] Yeah, this one is just what it sounds like, which is to just come out and say it and be. And this is what I, this is how I did it. Not with my mom. After I went through that process with my mom, I mentioned earlier, I just wrote a big, long Facebook post. I hadn't told anyone outside of my. My spouse, my. My mom, my dad, my immediate family. And so to kind of break. Break the news to everyone all at once. I just had a big Facebook post.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:35:05] I didn't say anything about, you know, here's all the reasons I hate Joseph Smith. I just said, this is just a post to let everyone in my community know I have chosen to leave the church. These are the reasons why I put the post, the script of the post in the book.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:35:23] And I even said, please do not comment on this post. If you have something to share with me about this, please direct message me. And people would go and comment and say, I'm so sad. This is so sad to see you've left the church. And I would just delete the Comments because I just wanted it to be my own.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:35:41] My own. I wanted the narrative to stay about, hey, if you care enough about me to make a comment about me leaving the church, direct message me. You don't need to get in an argument with my aunt about the church. On the. You know, sometimes the comments of a Facebook post can get so chaotic.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:35:57] So I would just delete the post. If you care about me, just direct message me and engage with me on a one on one basis. You don't need to comment so that all of our other people who served in our mission can see that you raised your hand to someone who is unhappy that I made this decision.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:36:13] Also, with the marriage belief divide, I wanted to add just to over explain everything. I think being. I think over explaining is really helpful because who you. The assumptions you can make about this person after they've left. If you leave, the assumptions your spouse can make about you, suddenly all bets are off.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:36:38] When you marry a member of the church, you have so many assumptions that you can make about that person that you never even discuss. When two BYU students are dating, they're not saying, hey, what about non monogamy? How do you feel about that? They're not gonna have a conversation about that. There's assumptions.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:36:55] Do you want to go out to a bar someday? No, you never even talk about it. All these assumptions level up upon each other, layer on up. You know that once someone leaves all those assumptions overnight in your spouse's mind fall away. And so they might think that you will cheat on them because you've left the church. They might think you will come home drunk or get in a DUI because you've left the church. They might. All of these assumptions about your moral compass fall away after you leave Mormonism. And so if you do come to them and say, hey, I want to try coffee, that might to them also represent, hey, I want to try drugs.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:37:36] Hey, I want to be in a relationship with someone else. Hey, I want to. You know, any number of crazy things the Mormon mind can. Yes. Can come up with. They might think that you're going to escalate to that overnight. And so I have in the book just a kind of script for how to. How to communicate with somebody. Hey.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:37:58] And not just making the decision and say, hey, I drank coffee today because that puts in the relationship, hey, I'm going to make choices that we never. That I never discussed with you. You know, not necessarily that you're asking for permission, but just the idea of, hey, I respect you and I love you. I Wanted to let you know, I want to try drinking coffee. I don't want to just put a coffee maker on our counter and not talk to you about it.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:38:22] How do you feel about me drinking coffee and having this conversation before you engage in some of these non Mormon activities so that they see that you're not just going to go out and burn your life down from a Mormon's perspective, but that the dialogue will always come first. The communication, the back and forth will always come first. And even if you do still go through with that action and they're not super happy about it, at least they know that anytime you're going to do something not Mormon, they will communicate about it first and talk about, hey, we have kids. Do you want me to just get coffee out of the house so the kids don't see it?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:39:02] So that at least that they can rely and trust that there will always be dialogue about these things instead of that you're just going to start doing them? Because that's really scary.

John Dehlin [01:39:13] Yeah. We often say that a mixed faith marriage provides an incredible opportunity to improve your communication skills as a couple and even improve your intimacy. Because what is intimacy? It's being vulnerable with each other and being able to still feel safe after you've been vulnerable. So it's a real opportunity to make your marriage better, believe it or not.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:39:35] Yeah.

Exploring New Experiences After Leaving

John Dehlin [01:39:37] All right, that's four.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:38] That's four.

John Dehlin [01:39:38] Five. We're almost halfway done.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:39:39] We're almost halfway. Number five is slow and steady wins the race. So just to just the idea of really slowing things down and walking and taking really careful steps because I. I know personally a lot of people who once they left the next day they were on Tinder and they were having people come over to their house and they're going from being the most virtuous Mormon person to engaging, you know, having sex with people. They, they don't know that they.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] Random hookups.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:40:14] Random hookups that they then regret it and multiple hookups, you know, and I think that comes from a place of. I think sometimes when we leave, our mind just goes into a craze and doesn't know what to do. I also use the example in the book of the first time I tried drinking, I was with another friend who was an ex Mormon and she had just recently, neither of us had tried drinking. And we bought just a bottle of tequila and we took a shot or like a little drink out of a cup. I didn't have shot glasses, of course, back then.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:40:53] And I looked at her, she looks at me. Do you feel Anything yet. And she's like, no, I don't feel anything. So five minutes later, we take another shot. You know, completely not understanding the way alcohol is metabolized or the idea of beer versus, you know, if you drink a glass of beer, how that differs from taking three shots of liquor.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:41:14] And so we, I think in about 30 minutes, we were. We were truly pounding this alcohol and had finished half the bottle. And I was at the kitchen, like, doing the dishes or, I don't know, getting something. And I just remember very suddenly, like, I can't feel my face. And this is the first time I've ever tried alcohol. Like, I can't even feel my face. And I look over and my friend is just like on the couch, like, staring off into space.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:41:42] And the night very much devolved from there. At one point, she was trying to walk across the room and she tripped and hid her face on a table. And she woke up the next morning with a black eye. And I drunk texted my family chat with a random string of letters.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:42:05] Most, you know, most of those people were Mormon, which. So I don't think they knew it was a drunk text. But. But yeah, just, you know, instead of. Instead of researching, you know, how to drink, trying out alcohol for the first time. Tips to stay safe. Alcohol is an intoxicant. What. What do I do to make sure I pace myself? I. I didn't do any of that. I just knew I want to try alcohol. I've never tried alcohol before. I no longer believe in the church. And I'm sorry, I'm very excited and curious about this. And so instead of making really informed choices around this new experience, I just rushed, sprinted head on into this thing that I knew nothing about.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:42:46] And instead of having my first experience be like, just something that was fun, something that was a good memory, it turned into something that was actually pretty scary. And that night too, I called my husband, who was on a work trip, and hung up mid call. And when I woke up in the morning, I had so many missed calls from him because I think he was just super worried about me. And for someone in the midst of kind of a faith transition to get a drunk call from their wife and who hangs up abruptly and then doesn't answer any other calls, that's really scary. And thankfully, he is very loving and was understanding.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:43:21] But I think you could have an experience like that and see your spouse have a crazy night of drinking and think, this relationship is not going to work if you're going to do this all the time. What if you do do this all the time. What am I going to. What should I. What's my response? And it's just easy to spiral out of control. And so this chapter is all about how to make. How to make these choices in a really thoughtful, concerted, conscious way instead of spiraling into this wild, sprinting off the rails sort of experiences where you make choices that might lead to dangerous situations or just might lead to a lot of regret.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] That's one of the things I love about this book. How to Leave the Mormon An Ex Mormon's Guide to Rebuilding After Religion is that you have sections around psychedelics, around alcohol, around sex that kind of provide people with at least a little bit of advice and guidance to start with to help minimize some of the collateral damage and pain that they might.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:23] And basic information like the things that you mentioned you did not know. Yeah, you, you provide like there's a

John Dehlin [01:44:30] section on what, what's a latte versus espresso versus a Americano versus a macchiato.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:44:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:38] There's some practical info here that's useful.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:44:42] Yeah. And I think so. On page 101 I have based just like the framework for making these new decisions or the framework for how to begin to have these new experiences. The first is research, learn and plan. This would be listening to a bunch of podcasts, watching YouTube videos, reading articles. How does it work? What are the risks, rewards, how much should I take at a time?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:45:06] And then setting a day and time when you want to experiment instead of doing it immediately. Step two is discuss with a trusted and open minded friend. Let them know, hey, I wanted to try out xyz. Do you have any advice or thoughts or tips for me? Do you have any thing I should look out for as a risk? Third would be share your decision if needed. Like if you're in a committed relationship, let them know, hey, I'm. I'm thinking of trying lsd. I wanted to talk to you about it. Let's read these articles together. Let's communicate about it. And then four is sample, then reflect.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:45:39] And this is. I use the word sample because it's important to just try, try a little bit. Don't go on Tinder and set up four, five hookups at a time. Don't drink an entire bottle of tequila. Don't. Don't go so hard that you're risking a lot of danger. Sample meaning take a bite.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] Don't take a second gummy cannabis before you've let the first gummy kick in. And I've never tried this stuff.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:12] I'M just, I really love this because the underlying message is about care. It's really about taking good care of

Alyssa Grenfell [01:46:20] yourself during this time and that you can use education to avoid some of the pitfalls that happen if you have no education at all. A lot of Mormon people aren't educated at all about STDs or about, you know, having casual sex with people. And so if you just think, oh, I want to do that, I will, you risk potentially ending up with a lot of risks, like physical risks, physical dangers, and also just regret and things that you'll wish you hadn't have done or that you wouldn't do if you just had education. And so the researching is about.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:46:57] If you're armed with education, you can understand. Is this thing I want to try addictive? Is wearing a tank top. You know what settings are maybe a good opportunity, like wearing a tank top in front of your Mormon family might end up making you feel embarrassed and shamed. Whereas the first time wearing a tank top, maybe trying it at a bar or with friends who are very accepting might make you feel empowered and beautiful. And so, yes, try these experiences, but understand the risks, understand the rewards, and become as educated as possible before engaging so that you have informed the informed consent you need to, to have a good experience if it's something you want to try.

John Dehlin [01:47:40] And I'll maybe offer in a slightly contrarian view also, no, you don't have to try any of these things. So I know that Margi and I are probably really rare, but we've never tried alcohol to this day. We've never tried cannabis or even had a psychedelic experience. And that's not because we think that's what everyone else should do. We've just decided we don't want to add that complexity into our lives, that risk. And so you don't have to do all these things that the church suggested you don't do as a reaction to what you were. As a Mormon, it's perfectly acceptable to just say thought it through. And I'm not even going to try this stuff. That's okay as well, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:48:26] Yeah, definitely. And I, yeah, I make that super clear in the book. And sometimes when you're doing step one research, learn and educate, you might realize that that thing I thought was really alluring and I was very interested in actually comes with a lot of risks. And I'm now no longer going to try it because I am educated. And so I think that the education piece is what helps you make an informed decision too. Hey, I've seen that alcohol and these things come with risks. I'm not interested so learning. But I think the education piece is important because then you're choosing out of a place of education. You're not choosing out of a place of stigmata. Stigma, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Stigma.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:49:08] Stigma, yeah, stigmatization. So you're making a choice. Like I said, my book is about making choices out of a place of courage and trust and hope, not out of making choices out of fear and loathing and fear of sin.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:22] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] Any other points for slow steady wins the race?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:49:31] I also have in this section, just checking in with your mental health. There's a depression questionnaire in this section, I think slowing down and really thinking about where you are personally during this process, not just, you know, what are my parents thinking of me, what am I going to do next, but pausing and slowing down to think, am I going through some mental health issues right now? And if I am, I need to take care of that. I need to make a plan to address what I'm facing. Because I think it's really easy to, as you're leaving Mormonism, to just try to get away as quickly as possible and have it over with.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:50:13] But sometimes that can lead to repressing these really awful feelings and not engaging with them. So I, I have a portion where I talk about, you know, if we think sometimes that if, if time passes, that's the same as healing. If 365 days pass, we have 365 days of healing, of mental health healing. And I think often if you're like me, I think I'm more prone to repressing and trying to stay away from bad feelings.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:50:45] Often time passing does not have anything to do with healing. You have to make the active choice to heal and to feel your bad feelings, to allow yourself to process the bad feelings, to accept that losing the faith of your whole lifetime is really hard.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:07] And so just in this section too to pause and really ask, am I going through a mental health crisis? Because I think a lot of people are. But instead they find outlets to heal them or to self medicate that are really unhealthy. And so recognizing if you are going through a mental health crisis or if you are having mental health problems, it's really good to pause and take it slow and be careful and seek help instead of rushing to just leave the church and get it over with and put it all behind you love it.

John Dehlin [01:51:42] And then you've got this final tip. Oh, the places you'll go.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:51:45] Oh yes, I should I, I said the page. Maybe I'll Read it. It's on page 106. Okay. In 26. In a 2016 conference session, Emerson Ballard asked the members struggling with their faith, where will you go? The talk asserts there is no place to find truth and happiness outside the Mormon doctrine. His talk is a warning to those who. Who are tempted to leave. This question reminds me of when a parent what a parent might say when a little child threatens to run away.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:21] Dr. Seuss addressed the same topic in one of my favorite children's book. While Ballard hopes to cast fear into the hearts of those listening to his talk, Seuss does the opposite. While Ballard asks, where will you go? Dr. Seuss wrote, oh, the places you'll go. The real world is not a terrifying hellscape of unhappiness. Instead, it's full of endless possibilities. And while the character in oh, the places you'll go has to climb mountains and face adversity, it makes him better. It helps him grow. Stepping outside the church is intimidating, but worth, worth it in exchange for the growth and discovery. As Dr. Seuss wrote, you have brains in your head. You have.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:58] Sorry.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:52:58] You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own. You know what you know, and you are the guy who decide where to go.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:10] Do not take Emerson Ballard's question as a warning. Take it as a challenge. Where will you go? Oh, the places you'll go? Who will you be? What can you accomplish outside the limiting beliefs and narratives the church perpetuates? Where will you travel? Who will you meet along the way? What books will you read? What ideas will you discover? Who will you become? As I reflect on who I was as a church member, I see a life marked by a constant desire to be the best Mormon I could be. I discarded so many parts of myself, so many dreams and desires vanished in the face of Mormonism Once I reframed, leaving in my mind to take my experiences from where will you go?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:53:44] To oh, the places you'll go? Everything changed. After two decades of rejecting my desires and identity, I could finally embrace myself without guilt or revulsion. I'm ready to answer Ballard's threatening question, where will you go? So to Elder Ballard and anyone with the same question, I'll go wherever I want to go.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] Love wherever the fetch.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:54:05] I want to go wherever the hell I want.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] I love it. Well, Margi and I had the idea that maybe we're five in. Do you want to take a quick break while we. Okay, so we're going to give Alyssa a chance to have a quick little break. We're going to keep going. There's been a lot of comments that we're just going to share really quickly. First of all, we want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. Your donations are what makes this possible. So thank you. If you're a regular donor, if you don't mind, I'm just going to say that if you value this content and you want to see it continue, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button and become a monthly donor.

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John Dehlin [01:55:27] You know, example is we plan on paying for Alyssa's flight here, but we need your donations to make that possible. So super thanks to Lauren Hewish for her super Chat donation. We really appreciate that. Some other super chats I just want to share really quickly. Claire Jennings says, been binging watching loads of episodes not Mormon or ever been, but I'm so fascinated by it overall. So thanks Claire. Thanks for that support. And that I have to admit that's one of the things I love most about Mormon stories is that so many Never Mormons tune in. Over half of our YouTube audience has never been Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:56:07] So I want to welcome all our Never Mormons to this channel to this podcast. Know that we're thrilled to have you here and we're tickled that you find what we do useful. Daniel Eli writes, High love from an Eastern European Orthodox. How cool is that that an Eastern European Orthodox is tuning into Mormon Stories podcast and finding value in it. So we welcome you.

John Dehlin [01:56:35] Nothing to Find writes New Year, new us, new thinking and new choices. Yay. Thanks for joining us. Nothing to find and thanks for that wonderful comment. I'll just share a few more really quickly. Mindful Rochester writes, I appreciate this channel. I'm thinking about joining the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:57:00] Both ex and active members seem to have so much integrity and love. It really appears that the LDS community has a positive effect. So mindful. Rochester, thanks so much for reaching out. If you do end up joining the Mormon Church, I want you to come on the podcast and tell us how that is going for you and how that's working. We wish you the best in your decision.

John Dehlin [01:57:27] We're going to affirm whatever decisions people want to make. All right, well, that's just a sampling of the wonderful comments. Please keep them coming, keep those super chats coming if you're able to support us that way. And yeah, I'll give a shout out to Trev Anand. Trev's joining us. He did time codes for about 1100 Mormon stories episodes. So, Trev, Anon, good to see you back. Thanks for joining us. All right, you're able to have your break. Alyssa, thank you. And Margi, you too.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:57:58] Lip balm.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:59] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] Lip balm. All right, so we've done five. I'll just say some people are like, John, these episodes are too long. I'll just say this probably the most ferocious, ferocious thing that so many of our viewers and listeners say is that they value the time we take to thoroughly explore issues. And when it comes to leaving a high demand religion or a cult, it's going to take you years, if not decades to process that. So we think a three or four hour, even a four hour episode is absolutely not long enough potentially to give you all that you need. So of course, we're going to recommend you buy this book right now, even how to Leave the Mormon Church to get way more support than you'll get out of a three or four hour episode.

John Dehlin [01:58:45] But we, we know that for those of you in it, in the thick of it, three or four hours is not nearly enough of the support that you need. So that's why we're going long. That's why we're only five episodes, five points into her, 10 points. And now we're at 0.6. Alyssa?

Alyssa Grenfell [01:59:03] Yes. So point six is about sex and sexuality. And this is, I think, the longest chapter in the book because this is the number one thing. I think the Mormon Church really does a number on men and women.

Sexuality, Consent, and Healing After Mormonism

Alyssa Grenfell [01:59:19] And a chapter that I share was the most difficult for me to write because I still feel like this is my number one place of struggle, of difficulty and just stigma. And so this chapter, I think, is filled with, it also has, I have a story from my friend who is a lesbian and she just got engaged. Congratulations.

Alyssa Grenfell [01:59:45] And she was raised Mormon. And so her story is about, you know, what she went through growing up with those feelings. And then I also have A story from a friend who grew up gay in the church. And he also is now in a loving relationship and marriage with his spouse. So those, their stories are really great in the chapter and I wanted to add the stories of, and the voices of people from the queer community who are really at the front lines of the, of the repression and stigma that the church places on sexuality.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:00:18] So the book starts or the chapter I talk about consent and how to. And what consent is. I think the church doesn't teach anything about consent at all. And so even the idea, I think is prevalent that marriage is consent, that when you're married you consent to sexual relations, you know, at any time. You don't need consent at any given time, but that marriage itself is consent. And so I talk about how to get consent, how to give consent, and how to, how to kind of think through if you do want to consent to something.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:01:00] I also talk about exploring sexuality. That is very easy, I think, to assume you're a heterosexual person be, or to have repressed for so long any, anything that falls along the spectrum of sexuality outside of heterosexuality. So because you've repress those feelings for so long, it's very difficult to engage with them at any level. Even after leaving, I don't think, I don't think leaving the church is synonymous with being ready to accept any part of your sexuality or becoming healthy sexually.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:01:39] It's very easy to continue having really significant hang ups about these, these things. And so talking about how you should spend time around people who make you feel accepted and loved and happy. I also included a glossary of terms for which I love. Yeah, I feel like you don't really learn how to speak, speak kind of this language. Like what is the difference between someone who's pansexual or bisexual, what does. What's transgender versus non binary. Those, those are things you're not going to be educated about if you were raised in the church. And so there's a whole glossary about what these different terms mean. Intersex, queer, polyamory.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:02:27] So that you can kind of at least start to understand these different categories of who different people or what they might identify as. And also just to give a name to it, I think people in the church, deep in the church, might have certain feelings, but never be even given the word to describe what those feelings are. And so learning about even just the definitions of what these things are can be really healing because you can see yourself in them for some reason.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:53] Asexual is another one. Yeah, we live in, I think a Culture that just assumes everyone, you know, so love it.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:03:03] I also share the story about growing up. All the times that I was shown different women, like a woman like Britney Spears or the Spice Girls, and told that these women are bad women, they're dangerous, they're evil women. And how much I really began to feel that that was something that I must be too. That if Britney Spears is evil because she's a woman and she dances in a certain way and she's a bad example, then if I have a body, and if my body is a female body like her body, then my body must be bad too.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:03:39] Bless you. And so I think when you feel your body is a sin, when you feel your body is bad, it's very easy to have complete disinterest and almost disgust with sex and sexuality because it feels dirty, it feels bad.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:04:03] And so a lot of the chapter is about overcoming this feeling that sex and sexuality are inherently bad. I had a mission companion confide in me once that she someday when she was gonna get married, she would tell her husband that they would not have sex on their wedding night. Because she said, I cannot handle going from closed mouth kisses to having sex in 24 hours. I can't do it. And she said that she wanted to wait a week or two and build up to it and work, work towards having sex. Because the church says you shouldn't kiss someone. And in. At least when I was in the church, I don't know what the, what they say now, but you should only kiss someone in the way that you'd feel comfortable kissing them in front of your parents, which is like a kiss on the cheek.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:04:54] I think when you're 18, I don't think you would even do a kiss on the lips in front of your parents. That would probably make you feel mortified. And so to expect, I think especially girls who are taught sex is so bad. To go from having no sex at all to a wedding night of sex is really unrealistic. And also just fully setting them up for failure.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:05:18] Even the jokes about, I don't know if you've heard these jokes. I used to hear them all the time of people having sex in between the reception and the wedding and the reception because they couldn't wait. And I always thought those stories were creepy and chilling because the story is always told like they have sex in the car and, you know, for the guy, he, you know, it's probably over in seconds because he's so excited. And the pleasure of a woman is not part of the conversation at all. And that those stories just always to me were kind of horrifying and placed in this kind of humorous tone, like, oh, these kids are so excited to have sex.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:06:04] But then when I would talk to female friends about how scared they were to have sex, it was clear that those stories are actually really twisted and intimidating. That a girl would be told sex is horrible for her whole life. And then in between her temple wedding with the robes of the priesthood and her reception in the cultural hall, she is having sex with someone who also has probably never had sex before and having likely for both of them, a very strange, weird, not healthy, not good experience, which is not what I think people deserve for their first time or for any time.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:46] Such a good point.

John Dehlin [02:06:47] Yeah. All right, what else, what else you got for sex and sexuality?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:06:53] I talk about the stigmas around masturbation, especially for really, for women and men, masturbation is shown to be healthy. It's a way to experience a sexual relief without relying on another person. I think Mormonism makes sexual satisfaction entirely reliant on another person's body. If you can't masturbate, then that means the only time you can experience sexual relief is if someone else consents to have sex with you, which means that another person is responsible for your sexual fulfillment and pleasure.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:07:32] Masturbation allows someone to take sexuality, their sex life, at least into their own hands, in the sense that they don't have to go to another person and say, I need you to fulfill this desire for me because I am not permitted to fulfill it for myself, but rather to say, hey, I can, I, I am responsible for my own sexual experience and I can feel fulfilled or I, I. And, and even that I am, I own my own body. I can have pleasure in my own body, and that that's okay, and that I don't have to rely on another person in order to have a sexual experience. I can have that sexual experience. I can feel sexual pleasure without being reliant on another person.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:18] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:08:19] Yeah. And that's a really tough one for Mormon minds to get behind husbands and wives, that it's not super dangerous or bad or unleashing some sort of beast or monster into your relationship. So I think it's really powerful that a woman is advocating for this because I think mental health professionals, especially decades ago, it stopped being a question.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:08:45] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:46] It's not even a question for like psychologists, psychiatrists, mental health professionals, but somehow in 2024, White Collar Global religions still haven't gotten the message and are tormenting children and youth and Adults over something that mental health professionals say is just healthy, flat out healthy.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:07] Yeah. And, and who, you know, who, who does masturbation hurt? Really? Like, where's the damage done? Is my question to the Mormon Church. Why are we stigmatizing this? What is the root sin at the heart of masturbation? I mean, I get alcohol, I can understand saying, hey, drinking actually can be addictive and can be dangerous. Masturbation, I don't know if we can really point to, I mean, besides maybe hurting your Mormon spouse, because they've been taught that you shouldn't be engaging in that. But in a vacuum, I don't know if you can say, like, here's the part of masturbation that is so damaging that no one should participate in it.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:09:51] And I think too, I think for the people who do, men and women, girls and boys who participate in it, the shame that comes out of that participation is so poignant and deep that some, some kids feel like they should end their life because they masturbate.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:10:08] That's wild and really sad. And I think it doesn't, it truly does not make sense to me. And I think it really makes it so that we have this semi rape culture within Mormonism which says, hey, if a man wants to feel sexual pleasure, he needs to find a woman who will give that to him because he cannot access that on his own.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:34] That's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:10:34] And so that is really damaging message to boys because that makes it feel like I have these feelings I can't control. And the only avenue in which it is righteous to engage with sexual feelings is if I get my wife to have sex with me. And that means that I think it creates a culture within a marriage or within a dating relationship where the man is really looking to the woman, or even the woman to the man to satisfy these feelings instead of having permission to take ownership of their own body and say, I can be my own source of self pleasure. I don't need to tell another person I can't get off unless you get me off. That is so much pressure to put on another person. And I think Mormonism, probably mostly by accident, creates that pressure within marriages and within relationships.

John Dehlin [02:11:33] Again, I'll refer. I was talking to Natasha Helfer and an ex Mormon sex worker the other day about a potential interview on Mormon Stories, and they both agreed that this idea that Mormon women are responsible to be the release, the sexual release for their husbands, it's bad for the women, but it's also bad for sexual intimacy in a marriage because a Mormon woman is going to start looking at sex as an aversive act if they view it as their duty to fulfill their husband's desires. It's called duty sex or obligation sex. And it. It is bad for someone who wants a healthy sexual relationship, because if you want a healthy sexual relationship, you want your wife or husband wanting to have sex with you because it's pleasurable for them.

John Dehlin [02:12:28] But as soon as it becomes a duty, it becomes aversive. And if we talk about these Mormon sexless marriages, where the couple goes, you know, an entire month or multiple months without ever having sex, you can probably look at duty or obligation sex as one of the reasons it becomes something people just don't want to do. People want to give that not just voluntarily, but. But out of their own fulfillment and satisfaction. And the other thing I'll say is that one of my favorite ideas within Mormonism is this idea of woe unto those who call evil good and good evil. If we can just know that that masturbation's healthy for mental health reasons, to prevent rape and assault, we're calling something good evil.

John Dehlin [02:13:19] And the only other thing I'll say is we know that sexual repression leads to extreme behaviors and harmful behaviors. So that's something, you know, evil that we're calling good. And so we just need to. We need to swap our ideas on sexuality, not to become irresponsible people, but actually to have the outcomes we want. What we want is healthy individuals, healthy relationships, less toxic sexual behavior, less rape, less assault, less mental illness. And that comes about by having healthy sexuality. Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:06] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:14:06] And I think that's like summarizing the chapter perfectly, is that Mormonism really doesn't permit you to have a healthy sexual relationship with your own body. I think that's on top. You know, we wear garments, but also just the idea that our bodies, the things that we physically carry with us throughout the world, are inherently bad. That masturbation, orgasming, that's bad.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:14:31] And it's only good in a very, very specific heterosexual, monogamous temple marriage, legally married, that unless those boxes are checked, any other sort of sexual activity or expression is evil. And that describes so many people that fall outside of the heterosexual married norm that it really demonizes. I mean, I even have memories as a kid, my parents talking to me about how two people were living together and not married and how that was really bad. And I had an aunt who was living with her. She's been with this person still. I mean, for over 20 years. She's been in a committed relationship. She has kids with this man.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:15:14] They're just not legally married. And as a kid I saw her differently and my parents taught me to see her differently because she wasn't married, she was living in sin. And I think when sexuality and sex become so specific about what's okay and what's not, it really alienates and demonizes so many people that it's very difficult to engage with sexuality as a member of the church or even to, you know, even admitting you're gay or embracing being gay is very, I think very difficult for people. And the same I think goes with pornography. I have a section within the chapter about that.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:15:57] I, I didn't, I wasn't willing to watch pornography till I think I was out of the church for five years. It was very, it was a very long time before I was willing. I used to, even after we left the church, I used to ask my husband constantly like, do you watch pornography? You know, I, I still kept this policing like you are cheating on me if you do that and I have to police you to make sure you don't kind of attitude.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:16:21] And I remember the first time I watched it was. It was literally just to see what it was. And I remember feeling. And my husband Jackson had also said like, it's just people having, it's naked people having sex. That's what pornography is like. Of course there are like really wild things, but like most of pornography is people having sex and there's no way pixels moving on a screen is going to be the same as my intimate, personal human relationship with, with you. And not for any man, I think, or like most men. I assume that if presented with, you know, would you rather watch pornography right now or would you rather have sex with this person you're interested in?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:17:01] I think most people are going to choose the real person and that's for a reason. Because ultimately pornography does not have these mystical tendrils that attach to people in this demonic way that the church depicts.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] Unless you tell them that porn is going to have that power before they view it, is it that then you've created that association?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:17:23] Yeah, right. Yeah. I think if you've been trained and if you've been trained to think it's

John Dehlin [02:17:27] really, you'll never get it out of your mind and keep secret, you'll never get it out of your mind. That's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:17:34] Yeah, right. I think it really is. And I think making it so. I actually had this, this person messaged me on TikTok about how the church saved his life because he watched pornography and he realized he was a pornography addict and he talked to his bishop and he was thinking about ending his life and he prayed a lot and the church helped him overcome this. And all I could think was maybe the church is what created this problem to begin with for you. Most young boys, most men, I don't think, think of ending their lives because they watch pornography, but I think the church creates the problem that then it aims to solve by becoming closer to God, by becoming, you know, going through these deprogramming, like pornography.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:18:19] You know, don't they have programs that you can go through with the bishop about, like stepping away from pornography, ending your addiction? And women who, I think are told that, I think it's very common to hear that if, like all men watch porn and if they tell you that they're not watching porn, they're lying to you. And that this creates within a marriage, a very deep seated level of mistrust. Because no matter how much the man might say, within a Mormon marriage, I'm not watching pornography, the woman has heard, he's lying to you.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:18:57] And so you can never trust your spouse. You never really, like, if that's the, if the church, if you trust ultimately the church over your spouse, which I think a lot of members do. And if the church tells the woman, don't ask your husband or your partner, don't ask this person if you watch porn. Ask them when they last watched porn.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:19:15] And they say, I don't. You don't believe them. You just are taught not to believe them. And so I think leaving the church, you still carry all these stigmas with you about pornography. And the first time I watched it, I think I just realized, yeah, this actually doesn't hold a candle to my real life relationship with my partner who I love and have had kids with and am intimate with. Like, there's no comparison. But the church would have you believe that pornography is so powerful and so addictive that it is, it doesn't hold, like your relationship doesn't hold a candle to pornography, that the pornography is what your husband is really in love with.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:19:51] And, and I think that probably does exist within some people. I think that's probably, that is some people's lived experience. But I think the vast majority of men and women, if asked, would you rather watch pornography or would you rather have sex with your partner who you're in a committed, loving relationship with? Most would say, I'd rather have sex with my partner. Because human connection and human sex, human sexuality is ultimately, from me, my opinion, way better than pornography. And Most of the fear mongering about pornography comes from people who've never actually watched pornography or maybe who, or who have only heard about it in rumors from other members.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:20:31] And so I think pornography is one of the Mormon boogeymen that we are afraid of because we assume that it has this ungodly, no pun intended, hold on people that like the bishop story from yesterday, agency no longer exists when pornography is on the computer. It truly like the devil does, has a grip on the mind of men and potentially women. And that it's an addiction versus that pornography is something to consume with intention, something to consume.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:21:15] Being careful, being considerate, knowing the risks, knowing about consent, knowing about, you know, making sure creators are compensated correctly. There are websites dedicated to ethical porn creation. You can find using some of, using that type of risk assessment versus assuming that pornography is point blank bad, especially if you've, you've never even seen, truly becomes it's so powerful.

John Dehlin [02:21:45] Yeah, and I'll, I'll just add that some people get mad and comment or email and say I can't believe Mormon stories is pro pornography. That's not a fair depiction of what's going on here. What we are, is, is pro health. And, and Colby, Colby Reddish just made the point that the, the way the Mormon Church talks about and deals with pornography is way more harmful than the pornography itself.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] And I'll just add that I've told this story many times that if you were to chart my personal pornography viewing, it absolutely tanked the day that I told Margi that I sometimes had looked at pornography. And eventually when she got to the point where she was able to say, you know what, that's your business, I'm not going to track it anymore. I don't want you to tell me about it.

John Dehlin [02:22:42] It's no big deal. What Margi said to me is let's have the best healthy sexual relationship that we can. And what you do, as far as that other stuff goes is just not, it's not her job. And my point isn't that that means we're pro pornography. I'm trying to tell you that if you are a believing Mormon spouse that wants to minimize your spouse's use of pornography, then take the power out of it by saying it's no big deal and then work to just have the healthiest sexual relationship that you can. I promise you that once it's no longer taboo and forbidden, the person is going to have less interest in it.

John Dehlin [02:23:26] Because literally making it forbidden, making it a huge deal, making it exotic and naughty, actually increases the person's attraction to it and destigmatizing it and making it not a big deal just makes them less interested in it. And that's just how the brain works. So don't call us pro pornography, call us pro healthy relationships. That's what this whole, in my opinion, pornography discussion really should be about.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:24:01] Yeah, I agree. And I think, I think that when we allow these things to have so much power over us, I think it's this, what I experienced when I saw, you know, viewed pornography for the first time is what I experienced when I drank my first cup of coffee, which is. That's all.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:24:18] That's the boogeyman. That's the man behind the curtain that's doesn't hold a candle to, you know, how often do you hear from the church pulpit them talking about real, actual things in the world that are truly horrible and harmful. The idea that coffee is a second piercing, that's morality. Not watching R rated movies. That's my relationship with Jesus. That's how I get closer to God, is by not showing my shoulders.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:24:45] That's crazy that me showing my shoulders is what we're talking about before. We're talking about the ills of homelessness or why we need more soup kitchens in the world or how we can go out into our communities and support, you know, people who are refugees who have recently come into America. You don't hear those things talked about the pulpit. You hear the double piercing the shoulders, the no coffee, these tiny little rules that in reality cause. No, I think in my opinion real damage. And I do think some pornography is really horrible. I think some pornography should not be viewed or created. I just think education, which is another main cornerstone of the book, education is what empowers you to make a courageous choice, a hopeful choice.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:25:34] Education is what helps you make an ethical choice. If you're making a choice out of fear. I've never seen pornography. I know it's evil and I'm afraid of it. So that's how I'm going to make choices about my sex life. That's not going to lead to a healthy spot.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:51] I'll just, I have to just say a couple more things. I appreciate. One of our viewers just wrote. I, I'm always torn between just letting a guest talk and sometimes Margi and I providing input. A guest just wrote, John has all the info, all this info in his mind. I'm so glad he keeps going.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] He's a vault of information and been through it. And I just want to thank Thundersnow for, for that support, because I do love to just give the mic to my guest, but sometimes Margi and I have been through a lot and one of the things I've been through is being a therapist and seeing in a married couple what happens when a couple gets married without ever having sex and then they find out either one has no sex drive at all, which is called asexuality, or at least attraction to another partner or no libido. Those are separate things, but both can happen. You can either have no sexual attraction to anyone, including your partner, that's asexuality.

John Dehlin [02:26:54] Or have no libido and then you're in a marriage. But because you never had sex or lived together before marriage, you don't find that out until you've committed to be with each other for eternity. And that's just a fundamental incompatibility that for some is fine to a non libido or asexual people can have a great marriage, but if one has a super high sex drive and the other one has no sex drive, that can be a deal killer. And you don't want to find that out after you've had a bunch of kids and you've committed to be together for an eternity. So again, this idea of calling good evil and evil good. To a Mormon, premarital sex is literally next to murder in evil.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:27:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:36] But to some people, getting married to someone who you're fundamentally incompatible with and not attracted to and finding that out after you've made the commitment to have kids, that's awful. That's horrible. That's evil, in my opinion.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:52] Or irresponsible. This idea that there's this whole part of a person that's completely unexplored and off limits and there's a whole part of yourself, you're like, well, I can't help you. I don't know. Because you're cut off from that piece of yourself as well. You know, just like really essential data is missing from yourself and from the partner and from the relationship, because you have no sense without a sense of those things, those two things, how can you speak for the sexual compatibility for the relationship?

John Dehlin [02:28:27] Yeah. They're super, super religious people that because they don't explore sexually at all before marriage, they discover after they're married that they're gay or lesbian.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:37] Like how would you like to be married to someone of the opposite sex who's only attracted to people of their own sex and not attracted to you? You don't want people, you don't want to marry that person you don't want your kid to marry that person.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:28:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:49] You want that person marrying someone they're attracted to. And how do you find that out? By exploring sexually. And so. And also, how many horrible stories have I heard of a faithful Mormon person that found the love of their life and they just happened to not be Mormon, but then they said, well, you're not going to take me to the temple, so I'm going to go marry someone that is not the love of my life, and then spend the rest of my life wishing that I'd married the actual love of my life. And then they lose their faith and they're like, oh, my gosh, I gave up true love for something that now I don't even believe in. Like, all of these things are just additional examples of how the Mormon Church's teachings about sex and sexuality can be super damaging and toxic.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:33] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:29:33] I mean, what is more what messes up your life more than having an incompatible marriage? Like having a marriage with someone, having a home with them, having kids with them, and that you've gone on this path purely because you're really trying to do the good Mormon thing. And then four kids, in realizing, this is not who I am, I'm deeply unhappy. That is. That's damage for sure. It reminds me of, I was listening to the episode with Stacy of Studio C, how his bishop, like, told him, suggested to him that he should just marry a woman. Yeah. Marry a woman.

John Dehlin [02:30:05] Even though he's gay.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:30:06] Even though he's gay. And Stacy was like, that's. How could I do that to another person? How could I do that to a woman? How could I marry her knowing this is who I am? And the idea that a bishop would suggest that and encourage that is, I think, illustrates how much Mormonism plays its role into people's marriages and into people's choices to marry young, to marry who they do, and that that sets them on this path for large amounts of heartache and failure.

John Dehlin [02:30:37] Yeah, absolutely.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:30:38] I talk to in the book about, I call it the commitment obsession that ex Mormons struggle from. A commitment. An obsession with commitment, with dating. When I think, as members, Mormons were so trained to think of marriage all the time that even as ex Mormons, when we meet someone new, when we're dating, it's easy to really quickly escalate into, okay, when are we gonna pair off? When are we going to get engaged? When are we gonna get married? This is where we're supposed to be. And in talking with my friends who are have never been members, they're very happy to let's date. Let's get to know each other.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:31:18] Let's take this as quickly or slowly as we need to. But that just casually dating is much easier for non members. I think new ex members might struggle with dating non members or never members because ex members might still be on this obsession with I need to get married. I need to get married. This is what a relationship is for marriage. A relationship is meant to prepare you for marriage. Whereas the never Mormon might be thinking, oh, I. My worldview is to date for a while, to maybe live with each other, maybe we'll break up, that's okay. That's how relationships go. Live and let live.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:31:59] And I think that disconnect can set people up for a lot of heartache. Because if the ex Mormon is like, let's get married as soon as possible, I'm thinking about marriage. When we're casually dating and the other person is, I'm not going to think about marriage till we've lived together for a few years. That's a huge disconnect. And so if as you're dating someone as an ex member, you're thinking a lot about commitment, you're thinking a lot about we need to pair off, we need to get engaged, we need to get married. Just recognizing where that comes from and not that those feelings are bad, not that that's what you shouldn't do with relationships, but just that that might come from a pretty Mormon place and that you might have to explain that or work through that with your girlfriend, boyfriend, whoever you're dating and discuss what that means for your relationship.

John Dehlin [02:32:46] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:46] Yes, I love that. And I also love that you bring up the point of, you know, I think our, our culture and religion is very couple centered like, and I love, I remember your chapter, I believe, brings up this idea of, you know, do you want to be part of a couple? Like it is absolutely valid to say you want to remain single in your life. That's not something that you feel, you know, really honors you as a person. And I love that you, you bring that up as part of the exploration.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:33:22] Yeah, I think trying. There's so much of a perfect model set up in Mormonism for how you're supposed to date, who you're supposed to date, what that dating is supposed to look like, that it's very difficult stepping out of that to have a new romantic relationship or not have a romantic relationship and figure out for the first time what do I want? Which is what the whole book is about, what do I want? And if I'm motivated by these different aspects of Mormonism, and these are still playing out in my mind. How do I examine them and ask which pieces are really me? Which pieces do I still value? Which values do I want to hold close? And which parts of these are just still the taboos and stigmas planted in me by Mormonism that I need to get rid of and weeding out what the difference between those things. Things are.

John Dehlin [02:34:15] Yeah, Maven, this is ultimate Mormon blasphemy, I believe. But Maven writes, stats show that single childless women are happier than their married peers on average. And I do know it's an absolute fact that there are people that aren't happy being a parent. They're told to be a parent, they have their kids, and they're miserable. And maybe they knew that beforehand, but they just did it because they were told. And how in the world is it good to bring children into this world who then you abandon because you're. You want to die because you did something that you fundamentally don't enjoy doing? So, like the, the. The. As much as I love my kids and love being a dad, the option of being childless is absolutely a legitimate one as well.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:35:03] Yeah. And I think to my last point for sex and sexuality was, I think for women, it can be especially difficult to learn to date actively instead of passively. As a Mormon woman, you especially, I mean, from how I was raised, and I think very traditionally, you don't ask men on dates. You are asked, you're pursued, you're pursued, never pursuing. And so in leaving, I think empowering women to pursue and to think of who they're looking for and when they find that person, not just hoping to be approached, but learning to be more proactive and say, I have a voice too here. I don't want to just accept whoever is pursuing me, but I also want to take the position of the pursuer and say, I found someone I'm interested in, I'm going to go after them, and I can fill that role for myself, too.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:36:01] I deserve, if I meet someone I'm interested in, I deserve to pursue them in the same way men are taught to pursue women. And so having that as a value, too, I think for women is kind of alien, but also really important as you're dating, to say, I get to be in the driver's seat in my own. Finding a romantic partner.

John Dehlin [02:36:22] Love it. Well, we could do an entire year's worth of episodes on sex and sexuality, but that's. That's a really good exploration in 20 or so minutes. So we've got four more, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:36:37] Yes.

Navigating Substances Outside the Church

John Dehlin [02:36:37] All right, number seven.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:36:39] Number seven is about substances. And I think we've already covered a lot of the kind of theory behind this, which is being informed you'd never have to try any of this if you don't want to. The idea that it's okay to learn and educate yourself about substances and that might lead you to decide you're disinterested, they're not for you, that might lead you to decide you are interested, but that especially with something like substances which so many people want to try, substances so many people are interested in, but coming out of the church, you have almost zero education about. And it's very crucial to educate yourself and to read as much as you can and talk with people and really understand the risks and the rewards of what you're choosing to get yourself into.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:37:28] When it comes to drinking alcohol, when it comes to tobacco use even, or when it comes to cannabis. All of these things are things that people especially, I think, millennials and younger are really drawn to and interested in. But coming out of the church aren't probably going to be set up for success in healthy use necessarily.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:37:47] So a lot of this chapter begins with make sure that you are being really careful, make sure you're learning, make sure you're becoming educated. If you can experiment or try with someone who has done it before so they can lead you through the process, so they can keep. Help you stay safe.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:38:04] And two, understanding that within, I think substance use, there's a lot of shades of gray, of morality, of it can be a slippery slope. Addiction is very real. A lot of people in the church who are. Who have left are in a really vulnerable place. And so. But still want to. Want to try substances. So how do you bridge this gap of being in a vulnerable place, not having a lot of education, but still wanting to try psychedelics for the first time? And education, I think, and learning and understanding what these substances are is going to help you figure out if you're ready or if you should wait till you're in a better place.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] Absolutely. And. Yeah, okay, go. You were gonna go.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:38:56] Yeah. So it covers.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:57] I cover.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:38:58] The main substances I cover are coffee, which is a funny drug because most people don't consider it a drug, but Mormons do. So coffee. And each section talks about the drug. It talks about how to order it or how to find it for the first time.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:39:12] Risks of that specific substance, what to watch out for, how to keep yourself from getting even too much caffeine at once can make you Feel really nauseous. Too much drinking at once is dangerous. So how to kind of safeguard against overuse, how to sample consciously and carefully, how to order a cocktail at a bar for the first time. Even just approaching a bartender can.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:39:38] For me, the first time was really scary, really intimidating. And so how to choose a bar that you know is not really busy. Choose a bar that's really calm and quiet so that you have, you don't have to. You know, a lot of bars are really crowded. At least for me, as someone with some social anxiety. If I go into a crowded bar, I'm not going to be the one that's like pounding on the table, asking for the drinks. I'll just leave. So talking about some of these things that might make you feel afraid to try for the first time and how to. How to make it enjoyable experience and exciting and fun experience and not something that's bad or intimidating or something that you just ultimately give up on despite having a curiosity about it.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Yeah. Let's talk quickly about psychedelics because I know growing up, alcohol, it's sort of upside down because alcohol was taught to be kind of the safest of all possible substances in the sense that it was legal and it was allowed. But then, like, if somebody's doing LSD or mushrooms now, they're, they've, they've gone way too far. You know, weeds way worse than alcohol, according to the Mormon brain.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:40:53] Right.

John Dehlin [02:40:54] And mushrooms and LSD are off. Off the.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:40:57] Basically, like heroin. Yeah, I thought heroin and mushrooms and cocaine, those are all just such heinous drugs that they're all in the same category.

John Dehlin [02:41:08] And the truth is, isn't alcohol the most dangerous drug by far?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:41:11] Yeah. At least for as far as deaths go and addiction goes, alcohol is the worst, but it's also the most normalized. So it's. It's way easier to say, oh, I'm out of the church, let me try a glass of wine. That feels way less stigmatized. Way easier than, let me trip on lsd. Even though there are no deaths associated with psychedelic use that are associated with the drug itself, potentially, maybe a mental health issue might play in. But as far as, like, overdosing on alcohol, pretty easy drinking while driving, a lot of people do it and get in, you know, kill themselves or kill the people who they're in an accident with. And tobacco is worse in many ways than alcohol. And it's even more addictive.

John Dehlin [02:41:50] More addictive.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:41:51] It's more addictive.

John Dehlin [02:41:51] And like, I don't think anybody's ever overdosed on cannabis. Or mushrooms. I like, I literally think it's impossible. I, I mean there's probably took like

Alyssa Grenfell [02:42:00] 300 times the dose of LSD that you're supposed to. And she was fine. She just, I mean, I think they had her in the hospital just to make sure she was okay, but she didn't die, she didn't have long term effects. So yeah, those substances are very, they're potent for sure. But as, and LSD and mushrooms are also proven to stop addiction. A lot of times people use them as a way to end a tobacco addiction, to end an alcohol addiction. There they have the opposite effect of a lot of other drugs where you try alcohol and you want some more. For many people, you try psychedelics and it trains your brain to no longer need those other addictive substances.

John Dehlin [02:42:41] So, and to be clear, I'm not, we're not encouraging illegal behavior and we're not even encouraging psychedelic use per se. I do think they can be overused or misused and they're illegal. So of course the book how to change your mind and other, other movies and public figures are trying to encourage, like with Johns Hopkins University, responsible, medically supported uses of these substances. So we want to destigmatize that because there may be cool opportunities for health and, and enlightenment. But what we are. So we're not for psychedelics or against it, we're for education, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:43:23] Yes. And educated use. And if you're going to do it anyways, if it's something you're curious about and interested in that education is the way to safeguard against mishaps and, and self discovery and knowing yourself, knowing am I, am I in a mental health crisis because I just, just left the church? Or am I in a good spot and I am ready to have a very concerted and conscious exploration? And those are two very different places to be. And I wanted to read in the book I have a, a quote from Sam Harris, who I really like. He has an essay called Drugs and the meaning of life.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:44:00] He's a neuroscientist and I think his, it's a pretty brief quote, but his, his summary of all these different substances I think is really spot on. He says, I have two daughters who will one day take drugs. Of course I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely. But a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable. I hope they someday will enjoy a cup of morning coffee or tea as much as I do. If they drink alcohol as adults, as they probably will, I will encourage them to do it safely. If they choose to smoke marijuana, I will urge moderation.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:44:37] Tobacco should be shunned. And I will do everything in the bounds of decent parenting to steer them away from it. Needless to say, if I know that either of my daughters would ever eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine, I might never sleep again. But if they don't try a psychedelic like psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms or lsd, at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder if they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:45:03] So I just love how he goes through this checkbox of all these different substances that are popularized within culture and essentially says, if you're going to try one thing, consider psychedelics. And I echo you. Psychedelics are still illegal in the United States. They're decriminalized, I think in parts of Colorado and maybe a few other places.

John Dehlin [02:45:30] I know psilocybin has been legalized in Oregon.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:45:33] Okay, yes. So, so there are, you know, kind of like cannabis states, some places where it's still federally illegal, but the state, at the state level, it's legal. And I, in my experiences between LSD and mushrooms, I feel have been very, very transformative in my self identity, in my self concept and just in my confidence in how I view myself and the world around me. And I think as the first time I tried magic mushrooms, I was, it was maybe a year or two out of the church and we were living in New York and I, I just felt such a supreme sense of peace that I had really never experienced before.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:46:22] And what I loved is how much that stayed with me, how much it changed my perspective and point of view after the experience as well, still to this day. And so like alcohol is very fleeting, even coffee is very fleeting. You need it pretty quickly again to give you your energy back or you need to drink a lot if you want to get drunk. I think psychedelics, like he says in the book, even trying just once can be a very life altering and introspective experience that I don't think is for everyone. But I think if you're something, if you're someone that's interested in it, I think especially as a woman who has a lot of shame around my body, as a woman who was raised to not really believe in herself, it really helped me work through a lot of these deep seated beliefs that I had about myself that I wanted to change.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:47:14] And that's what I loved the most about and have loved as I've sampled psychedelics, you know, once every six months to a year since.

John Dehlin [02:47:24] Yeah. Yeah. And they can be misused and abused. So just be educated and be thoughtful about it and check out the book how to Change youe Mind. It's a great overview. And, you know, whether it's PTSD or depression or anxiety or other types of significant mental health disorders, get educated on whether that might be something that could help you, because Johns Hopkins and many other universities are actively researching psychedelics as a way to treat even MDMA as a way to treat.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:06] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:48:06] Or ketamine is becoming a big treatment that. That is used within medical communities to treat depression. So.

John Dehlin [02:48:13] Yeah. Get educated. Yeah.

Rebuilding Identity and Reclaiming Your Body

Alyssa Grenfell [02:48:17] So point number eight is about identity, which is at the core of everything we've already talked about and I think is something that deserves a lot of time and effort spent rebuilding after you leave the church. Especially, I think for someone who was all in, 100% type of Mormon, having an identity devoid of Mormonism feels like.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:48:47] I think for me, it felt like I lost my identity completely. Everything about me was always constructed around how to be a good Mormon. And so after I lost my testimony, it felt like, if I'm not Mormon, what am I? I'm nothing. I have nothing left.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:49:05] And it can feel like ground zero in a lot of ways. And I talk in the book about one thing that really empowered me after I lost my. My testimony was reclaiming my body back, which sex and sexuality is one way. But I think, too, as soon as within a few months of leaving, I got this piercing, which feels like a very small thing, I think, to a lot of people.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] To the top of your ear, for

Alyssa Grenfell [02:49:31] those who are listening, most people are. Piercings are fun and not a second thought in most communities, most cultures. But for Mormons, especially Mormon women and Mormon men, too. No piercings for men, one set for women. And I always wanted to have a piercing, have more piercings in my ears.

John Dehlin [02:49:51] And so you got something in your nose, right?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:49:53] And I have a nose ring, and I have one here, and I love that. And wearing my tank top right now, these are ways that I show and prove to myself that my body belongs to me, that I am the master of my soul and I get to choose what happens to my body and that I don't. You know, I've had people comment like, I think tattoos are so ugly, and I don't care. I love.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:19] It's not for you.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:50:19] It's not.

John Dehlin [02:50:21] Do you have a tattoo?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:50:21] I have three tattoos.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:23] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:50:23] I have. My first tattoo was a J. Because my husband's name is Jackson and

John Dehlin [02:50:28] that's commitment, by the way.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:50:29] Yeah, well, he got his ring. I didn't get a ring because I like. I like my ring. So his. His is even more commitment. But. And then I have a son. You probably can't see it very easily on the mirror, but on the camera. But I. I love. I love taking my body back for myself. I think as someone who hated wearing garments, as someone who always was hyper conscious of wearing modest clothing, being able to say, my body belongs to me, truly to me, not to God, not to my husband, but to me has been. One of the most rewarding aspects of leaving the church is saying if I want to put a hole in my nose right here and then put a ring through it, that is my choice to do. And I don't care if it's ugly to everyone else in the world, because

Margi Dehlin [02:51:17] I'm not asking you.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:51:19] I'm not doing it for you. It's not for you, it's for me. That's right. And I think so. I talk about. And two, I wanted to read. I have a story from a friend who is a man and how Mormon. The Mormon male image impacted him. That I wanted to read. That I think is really kind of insane that this is what he grew up with.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:51:44] So let me. Let me read it. This is Levi's story. It says the church places far fewer restrictions on men, but we're still taught that we represent the Savior. And this comes with a strict style guide. If your Sunday shirt isn't white, you can't bless the sacrament. Leaders can't wear bow ties. No earrings, no tattoos. Avoid the appearance of evil. A hot chocolate in a Starbucks cup is as bad as coffee. This constant focus on appearance and what others think can fuck anyone up. I grew up in Utah, where most Mormon boys have straight blonde hair, a smooth white face, a slender build and a slender build, ideal for running.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:52:18] I have dark, curly hair, a face speckled with freckles, and a naturally stocky body. Gifts for my dad's Scottish ancestry and my mom's Polynesian roots. In my elementary school, I remember looking at my friend's skinny ankles, their socks stretched around their Achilles tendons, leaving gaps on either side. They look spry and agile. My ankles filled my socks like a cupcake in its liner. Their calves were slender, mine were thick and beefy. I wondered more if more girls would like me if I looked like the other boys. I felt ashamed of my body and wanted to cover my legs. From ages 11 to 27, I didn't wear shorts.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:52:54] I avoided pool parties. Our apartment complex had a very nice community pool during my senior year of high school. I never used it. Reminders of my differences weren't always from. Reminders of my differences weren't always from inside of my head. As a 17 year old priest, the bishop emphasized my distinctive curly hair by comparing me to animals in front of the other boys. Alpaca, llama, poodle, sheep. Later I found out that one of the other boys straightened his hair every morning.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:53:19] Ten years later I left the church. I no longer believed I had to represent the Son of God or look like a typical example of a good Mormon boy. I felt more empowered to love myself for my differences. At 28 years old and with much love and encouragement from my wife, I felt more secure than ever and bought my first pair of shorts as an adult. I chose a pair of bright red extra short Adidas and it was my way of plunging into the deep end. Now I believe my wife when she says she loves my curly hair, my thick legs and broad build. People ask what my leg workout is.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:53:49] Girls use brow pens to draw fake, fake freckles. K pop stars get perms to have curly hair. So many of my differences are normal or desired when you look outside of the church. I don't need to look or dress like one of the ninety year old apostles or their most dedicated followers to be a good person. I don't need to have runners legs or be strong to be strong or have straight hair to be handsome. I stopped wondering if Moroni's command to be perfect means I should look more like someone else. I only need to be enough for myself and I am.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:54:19] So I loved that story because I think it's very easy for men to feel like potentially maybe like all of the Mormon shame around identity and image is placed on women. But I think there is still a really strict dress code for how men should look. No beards, no funky prints, no painted nails even or foundation or skin care, you know, so the hyper masculinity put on men is damaging too.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:51] And whiteness.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:54:53] Yes. And I think that's a huge part of his story. How he's getting ridiculed by the Bishop for looking differently from the other boys because of his, you know, because he's Polynesian, has Polynesian ancestry. So that too I think is racism playing a role in how he is perceiving his identity as a, as a, as an individual. Absolutely.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:55:19] So yeah, I think I also feel like as, as women and men reconstruct their identity Coming to terms with and learning to really love yourself and being the center of your own world. Like we talked about, not looking to authority, not looking to a spouse for who you should be, but looking inward is really important, I think for women. Learning to look if they're, if they want it for, you know, whatever leadership opportunities or power or presence or career or aspect of their life that they were always told that they couldn't have.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:55:58] I think that being empowered to feel that you can be the center of attention as a woman, that you can be important, that you can be good, that you're, you can be the leader is something that's really difficult to get over. Saying that your husband's job is more important than your job or saying that, you know you're gonna kind of be, you're never gonna be the main character, you're always the side character, even in your own life is very, is, is really damaging, I think. And so I, I talk about that as well. Just being, being confident enough to take up space in a room and not trying to be, you know, the, the church's version of women, which is that the men are on the stand, the men are blessing, blessing the sacrament, that the men are the ones with the ultimate power and that women should look and follow their husbands, look and follow their male leaders, but that women can play that role too outside of the church and learning to fill that role for yourself and learning to even just fill that role in your own life and being self led is really important to reconstructing a self fulfilled identity.

John Dehlin [02:57:10] One of our viewers is sort of asking the question, why is it okay? Why are piercings and tattoos discouraged? But plastic surgery, botox, breast implants, etc are totally not just, not ever criticized. They're almost like, I don't know, approved of or encouraged. Any theories on why certain types of body alteration that makes you what fit the, the idealized gender form, why they're okay, but piercings and tattoos aren't Any theories on that? Women,

Alyssa Grenfell [02:57:56] I think I would say my theory is just first, I think that in a lot of ways plastic surgery goes towards looking more like the ideal woman and men are not going to have a problem with that. If a woman has bigger boobs and fewer wrinkles, I don't think men are going to say can you please stop that?

Alyssa Grenfell [02:58:18] Whereas I think a lot of men don't like a non traditional look like color in your hair. Piercings, tattoos, those are untraditional and ugly. Potentially not all men think that, but at least for Mormonism, I think if you're doing something as a woman, which. I mean breast implants. That's surgery like that involves going under the knife. That's more dangerous than a piercing. But it's not discouraged because ultimately Mormon morals have nothing to do with true risks or true harm. It's all about the fake morality of how to be perfect. And so I think it's not about.

John Dehlin [02:58:55] Or how to fill your role.

Alyssa Grenfell [02:58:56] Yeah. How to fulfill your role. So it's not about, hey, surgery is actually more dangerous than a tattoo. It's about that surgery is going to make you look more like the ideal. And so we have nothing to say about it. No comments.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:10] Yeah. For me, I feel like. So first off, I think this is a. A kind of nuanced topic. Right. So I'm very pro women doing things that make themselves feel more like themselves and in more of a healthy place. So I want to say that first off. But to your question, to me, it feels like one thing that's understandable to me is this idea of when women are valued the way they're valued within the church. I do think perfectionism can appearances. Part of that, I think my understanding is it's its own thing. Kind of in Utah, as opposed to some other places. That was definitely true where I lived, if I lived in other places versus coming to Utah, it felt like a.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:04] It's a different. It's a different thing phenomenon here in Utah. So I would say the perfectionism piece for women and almost feeling insecure or like you don't have value unless you're perfect. And that physical form, of course is the first thing we see. So I would say that. But also it plays into kind of this belief that women in young women's. I was. I received conditioning around. I was like a gift to my husband. Like there. My value was how attractive I was.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:40] And so that was something that, you know, I was going to be a mom. I needed to be coupled. And so that piece of this idea of like, I'm a gift and I need to like create the best gift, the best version of and the ultimate is to be wanted is to be chosen. And so. So I think for many women this is a way that it kind of preserves and optimizes being attractive and being looked at and admired and valued and chosen. And so it can play into some of those. That is just what came to my mind.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:01:21] I think I saw a study recently that women who are skinny get paid something like 20 or 30% more than their people. People who have the same level of qualifications but who are Viewed as overweight or chubby or whatever. That skin literally just being thin can get you more money. Absolutely. That I think also is part of, you know, body modifications, boob jobs, nose jobs, whatever. It's this idea I think too, very common, like men are just allowed to age. Men are allowed to have wrinkles. If you look at a magazine cover of a man in his 50s and a woman in her 50s, the woman will be airbrushed like she's 20 and the man will ha.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:02:03] Will be allowed to have wrinkles. And so I think women are often put in this place, like what you're describing, that our value is being thin, our value is being beautiful. Our value is conforming to this very ultra traditional type of women and never being able, never being allowed to age with grace, never being allowed to eat in a way that is instinctive, but rather eat to be as skinny as possible.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:02:35] And so I think, I think, I know this is a little off the rails with identity, I guess, but I think as a woman you have to decide what that means to have a lot of messaging around. This is how your body should look. Not just from the church, but from social media as well. And you have to ask yourself, okay, am I gonna, do I, do I buy that? Do I buy into the idea that being thin is inherently more attractive and good and worthwhile than, you know, even having a few extra pounds on you? And so I think, I don't know if this still ties in with the original question, but I think it does.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:18] And I actually see it as core to identity because this is part of the deconstruction and your body, how you own your body. That's right. And part of the messaging. And to be fair, this is cultural as well. And, and for most of us, there can be a familial layering too, around weight, femininity, like traditional gender roles. And so I just like to acknowledge how layered it is. And the more layered something is, often the more difficult it can be and involved to disentangle. But this is part of the journey of identity and making your body and your health and nourishment and all those things your own, as opposed to yes.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:03:59] And not, not trying to look outside yourself and ask, well, what is everyone else doing? I'll do that because I. It's easier to just do what everyone else is doing or outsource your decision making to something other than something from inside. And even for me, I, most of my friends are getting Botox at this point. I'm 31 and I haven't gotten Botox yet. And I'm, I'm really actively wrestling with this idea of do I commit to this like $300 every three months procedure that I have to go in and have needles put in my face or do I accept that gravity will cause my face to look differently than it did when I was 15 and that that's okay?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:04:41] And that honestly, both outcomes, getting Botox committing to this or not getting Botox coming to this, neither are desperately bad. Neither. But I have, but it's, it's me to choose. I get to choose which, which of these two paths, which values I want to incorporate into my life. And so I'm, I'm currently wrestling with that. Do I, do I want to have no wrinkles because I feel like that makes me more valuable as a person to other people? Or do I want to have anti aging procedures done because I'm going to feel more confident in my skin and that's a good thing.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:14] That's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:05:15] And we have to decide like I think every person has to decide for themselves, what value do I hold most closely and that's what will push me forward versus I don't think I'm as valuable unless I have this. One choice is going to give me more value to other people and the other choice will make me less valuable. So I will choose, I will choose a choice based off of what people think of me.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:40] That's right. And even I feel like what's helpful is removing this sense of like ethics or like to be a moral person, I need to not get Botox like now I'm superior because I, because I think that is kind of part of where we come from is, you know, there's a right and when I do the right, I'm better than you. Yes. Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:06:04] Yeah. So I think, I think I'm still, I still personally struggle with that. And I think a lot of people have to decide, you know, what. And I think for me, the place of morality of which decision I make comes more from at this point in my life, wanting to make a choice that is most true to myself and not a decision that I feel that I chose because I was pulled in either direction by an external force.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:31] Right. That's so true. What I love about this topic being brought up too is, you know, it brings up this point of for many of these things, it's not a one and done. Like we're going to be on a journey with these things most likely for a lot of our lives. Because I think sometimes there's a tendency to Just kind of feel like, get to the end. Get to the. I'm healed. Let's get to the quick closure. But in truth, for most of us, that's the invitation is that we will be doing this, connecting and reflecting and editing ourselves so that we are being true to ourselves for the rest of our lives. And it's a gift to be able to do that.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:07:13] And it's so hard to deprogram the idea that there is a right and a wrong.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:17] That's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:07:18] Because that is the only binary presented in Mormonism. And the idea that. That getting Botox or not getting Botox or wearing tank tops or not wearing tank tops has nothing to do with right and wrong and everything to do with personal choice is a surprisingly difficult pill to swallow. I think as a. As an ex Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:38] That's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:07:39] It has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with your personal identity. And that your identity in either choice has nothing to do with your. The reflection of you as a. As a good, moral person.

John Dehlin [03:07:51] Nice. Very nice.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:53] We did a.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:07:54] Thanks for bringing that up.

John Dehlin [03:07:57] Anything else on identity?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:07:59] I think. I think we covered most of it. I do think it's worth reading the book to get the full effect, though. But we can move to point number nine.

Finding Community and Belonging Post-Mormonism

John Dehlin [03:08:07] All right. Number nine.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:08:09] Number nine is building a new life and community outside of Mormonism. And I think as an ex Mormon in the book, I suggest finding two. Two new communities as you've left the church. One is, I think it's really helpful to find a community of ex Mormons.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:08:26] And it's important to find a community of. And I guess I'll say three, a community of ex Mormons who are supportive and can understand what you're going through to keep your Mormon community as much as it is healthy and positive. You know, don't stay in a toxic relationship, but that don't just throw away your relationships with members of the church if. If they're worthwhile and if they can be salvaged. And then third is to. If you can, this may be more difficult in Utah. Find a community completely disconnected from Mormonism at all, which I do think is still possible. I think if you love Frisbee, a new community could be finding a really active Frisbee group to go throw the Frisbee around with.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:09:12] Finding, you know, what are your hobbies any hobby is going to have, whether it's on online or in person. Community that you can go be a part of and being part of. The beauty of Mormonism is being united in a common goal or a common dream or belief. And so finding a hobby or a pursuit or a goal or some, some, some activity that you feel passionately about and finding other people who are also passionate about that is going to fill a lot of that sense of community that gets left behind with Mormonism.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:09:47] And then I think to an ex Mormon community, I see a lot online people saying, there's no ex Mormon community in Michigan or Oregon or. And if you. At least every time I look up a Facebook group, at least in major metropolitan areas, there's usually at least one or two on Facebook and that's semi active, that you can reach out to the person who organized the group and say, hey, are there any meetups? Just at least give it a shot. I think a lot of people assume, hey, I don't live in Utah. There's definitely no ex Mormons around me. But inevitably there almost always are because there's a lot of us.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:10:22] And so it's worth going on Reddit and posting on the ex Mormon subreddit. It's worth going on Facebook and searching through Facebook groups because I really think that some of my most affirming relationships have come from other ex Mormons because they really help you feel normalized and not crazy and even just help you talk through some of your shared trauma and shared stigmatizations that you've had to deal with. And at my. Still to this day, most of my closest friends are ex Mormons. So that's my plug for joining a community like that.

John Dehlin [03:10:58] I'll just say that they've tried to isolate the most important ingredient for what makes churches and religions so successful or sought after or when they've been able to make claims that religious people have slightly higher average levels of happiness than non religious people. The active ingredient that they generally identify is community. And this is, you know, in some sense, I wish I would put this topic first, not ninth. Not that it matters at all, it's arbitrary, but, but like, loneliness is deadly.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:40] Loneliness is more dangerous than alcohol in terms of the mental health risks. Loneliness is horrible. And there it's not easy to find religion, you know, find community. If you're living in Seattle or Houston or and you just live in a random apartment and you don't know anybody, and especially if you're an introvert and you struggle to make friends, loneliness is terrible. And community can be amazing. And so this topic of community is so important. It's why we created Thrive. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com There's a Thrive event coming up in St. George in the first weekend of March 2024.

John Dehlin [03:12:22] You know, whether it's Mormon Spectrum, whether it's WACA, Women of a certain age, check out that Facebook group, whether it's faith journey meetup group on Facebook that has over 20,000 post Mormon women. There's so many communities, and community is essential. And I agree. It can be a motorcycle club, if you're into motorcycles, it can be bowling night, you know, whatever it is.

John Dehlin [03:12:49] Don't underestimate the importance of community. Even if you're an introvert. Especially if you're an introvert. And the ex Mormon Reddit does a great job of listing community activities. And a really good community like Thrive. ThriveBeyondReligion.com they'll provide you with the means to create a meetup group or a Facebook group or a community group if there isn't one. And they'll put up a big map of all the different communities all over the world that you can be a part of or you can add. But community's huge.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:13:22] Yeah, I think it's, it's easy to lose Mormonism, but then to never replace it with something.

John Dehlin [03:13:30] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:13:30] And to just. It's, it's, it's very difficult to find a new community. You're. You have to put in the work which Mormonism is like. You know, it's so easy when you move to a new community. You go to the ward, you show up at the ward, the ward is there, they're ready to support you. It is. So, it's so built in that it's easy. And even if you don't like your new ward, at least it's there, at least it exists. And as soon as you walk in the door, you understand the nuances, you understand what is expected of you to get a calling to participate.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:14:03] And so in leaving, you do have to do the very difficult job of finding a new community and becoming part. But once you do, I think that it is very possible to have all of these benefits that came out of your Mormon community. But now coming from a place that is more accepting, is less stigmatizing of different aspects of your personality, potentially and hopefully is still fulfilling in the ways of connection that you experienced as a member.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:14:35] So I think it's very difficult to bridge the gap between losing Mormonism and finding a new community. But it's really worthwhile effort. And if you don't put in the effort, you will have this loneliness that you're describing. So I think it's easy for people to stay home and say, I'll Just watch tv. Please don't do that.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:15:00] That's. I think you really have to put yourself out there in what might be a little painful, but no pain, no gain when it comes to finding that new community.

John Dehlin [03:15:12] Some ex Mormons join other churches and that's okay. Some people say, well, the Catholic Church works for me, or the Evangelical Christianity. There's South Mountain Church or K2. There's a ton of thriving churches. There's Unitarian Universalist churches if you don't want to have to deal with supernatural stuff or too much dogma and theology. The Unitarian Universalist churches, there's one in Salt Lake, downtown. There's one kind of in the, I don't know, Cottonwood Heights area. There are others. There's a, there's a group called the Sunday assembly, which is a secular church that comes out of the uk. And again, there's just nothing wrong with going to a less culty, less fundamentalist, more tolerant and inclusive church. You know, give that a try. Don't, don't be afraid. There's just a lot of options.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:10] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:16:10] And I think it's very worth boiling down. What, what about my Mormon community was so. Made me happy? What, what about it was fulfilling for me and how can I reproduce that within another new community that is potentially where I'll fit in even better?

Margi Dehlin [03:16:32] Where you may belong as opposed to like fit in?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:16:36] Yes. Belong versus fit in is, is a great distinction.

John Dehlin [03:16:39] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:16:40] I also in the book talk about finding friends who really push my thinking or push my understanding of the world. I had a friend in New York who I went to her party and she was walking around and her two parents were there and she was doing shots with her parents, which the idea like for a Mormon mind, seeing a kid, a 20 something doing shots with her parents was like mind bending and they were joking around and it was just her family dynamic was so beautiful and just interesting and pushed my understanding and concept of what a family could be. And so I think as you're looking for this new community and new friendships, finding people who like, I've really appreciated.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:17:24] I have a close friend who is gay and what he shares with me about the gay experience is something I never was exposed to as a Mormon. And that really broadens my horizons as far as how I understand the world, how I understand to connect with people who are like him and him. And so I think as you're searching for a community, not being afraid to find friends who push your thinking and who help you be introduced to new concepts and new ideas and help you Just broaden your horizons outside of this very kind of traditional type of person who is a bit, one size fits all, potentially within the church.

John Dehlin [03:18:02] We're getting a ton of comments about community that works for different people there. There's the Mormon Stories podcast, Facebook community that's got over 20,000 members in it. That's a really useful community to some people. And even our YouTube channel, there are people that, as for community, they come on and watch our live streams and they talk to each other and get to know each other that way. So so many different ways people can find community.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:18:27] It's great. And the number one thing is to just, to not hold yourself back, to not lose Mormonism and then replace it with nothing.

John Dehlin [03:18:35] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:18:36] So push yourself to get, get out there. You can even just have, you know, if you're an introvert, like have an online community, have a message board you're a part of, have one of these Facebook groups. You know, you don't even have to leave your house to find community. So don't, don't hold yourself back after losing your faith. Put yourself out there and find these people who are waiting for you to belong with them.

John Dehlin [03:19:00] Yeah. They say a lone monkey is a dead monkey. Like, we are not made, we are not evolved to be alone. Yeah, we're just not so. Or at least few of us are so. That's nine. Did we do nine?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:14] That was nine.

John Dehlin [03:19:15] Are we number 10 right now?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:16] We're ready.

John Dehlin [03:19:16] Are we wrapping up?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:18] Final point?

John Dehlin [03:19:18] Are we going to end with a bang?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:20] Yes. Is the bang the reading? Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:23] And yes, it is a bang.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:26] Yeah. So the, the last point is becoming an ex, ex Mormon.

What It Means to Become an Ex-Mormon

John Dehlin [03:19:30] Can I just say, it was John Larsen, the podcaster for Mormon expression, that first introduced, that coined the term, that term that I'm aware of.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:19:38] So I love the guy, so I just wanted to give him credit.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:19:40] Okay, thank you, John Larsen. Yeah, I, I love that term because I think it perfectly encapsulates what every, in my opinion, every ex Mormon's goal should be, which is to, I think in leaving the church, it's such a hyper fixated emotional time and it's really beautiful. I think when you, you know, and we talked about this last night, you know, you go through a phase of you just have Mormon stories, you're reading CES Letter, you're binging podcasts, you're binging TikTok.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:20:13] You are so consumed by the process of losing your faith and then rebuilding that it becomes almost its own task, almost more demanding than Mormonism because it's so emotionally taxing. And it's really beautiful to be far enough past losing your faith and part far enough past this process of grieving your faith that it starts to feel like it's a little bit in the background. It starts to feel like you can go for a day or two without even thinking about Mormonism, without even processing, you know, or feeling angry or frustrated or bitter, but that you're finally ready to just start engaging with your life. Like, it's like I shared in the chapter yesterday, like it's just normal.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:21:04] And you're no longer ruled by Mormonism, but you're also no longer ruled by ex Mormonism, and you're completely ready to jump off and start in this, this new life. So I share a few instances of times that even since I've been out for eight years, that Mormonism still kind of comes into my subconscious and I can read. I don't know if you ended up. I don't know if you wanted me to read the beginning of that chapter about the running or if I could just describe it. Whatever you think.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:38] Yeah, whatever you feel comfortable with. But I think it, it is kind of part of the process for, for many people that we have these moments where conditioning may seep in again. And that's kind of part of.

John Dehlin [03:21:54] While you're looking that up, I'll just say one of the most common things that Margi and I face. We'll meet people who used to be listeners to Mormon Stories podcasts and they always apologize and say, sorry, sorry, I don't listen, like I quite used to. And we always tell them we see that as success, like graduation. We're not here to make you addicted to us. We're here to help you through a hard time. And when people tell us that they've graduated from Mormon Stories podcast, we congratulate them.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:22] That's right. We say, we're so happy to hear that.

John Dehlin [03:22:24] Yeah. Not the. There's anything wrong with staying interested in Mormonism and staying empathetic or staying connected or just because it's fun or interesting. That's all okay too. But it's also totally okay to move on.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:38] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:22:38] And I think too part of graduating from ex Mormondom is also developing. I think everyone should feel a really big sense of pride of just how far they've come. And it truly is, I think becoming ex Mormon, leaving the church is something everyone should be very proud of. And it's an achievement.

John Dehlin [03:23:00] It's an achievement to leave a high demand religion or cult that's harming you. That's a massive achievement.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:23:04] Disappoint your family and to choose, you know, choose yourself over choosing what other people want for you. And I have. I've thought a lot about, you know, how many of my ancestors were Mormon and how many of, you know, they crossed the entire country and settled in Utah. And I've thought a lot about how potentially I am letting them down and that those people in theory would be disappointed with what they would see on the screen right now. And I think what I've landed on is that I hope, or in my mind, I like to imagine that they're actually very proud of me because I think what led them into Mormonism, because when people convert, they let their family down too, is tenacity and resilience and

John Dehlin [03:23:57] courage and truth seeking.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:23:59] And truth seeking, yeah. And that maybe if in the 80s, my grandparents or their grandparents had had access to the same information that I've had access to, that maybe the desire for truth seeking and the tenacity to follow through with what feels morally good and right and ethical, that they. That they would be proud of me because I've done what they've done, kind of in theory, by following what I was, had a very high conviction for.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:24:29] And so I think part of being an ex Mormon is to reframe out of I'm the black sheep. I'm never going to live up to what my parents wanted, but to frame it as I'm very proud of you, of any listener who's left the church, and that that was the choice they made and of myself for being willing to disappoint a lot of people, being willing to make a choice that was counter to the culture of my family in the name of choosing what I felt was the right way to be or to do. And so. Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:07] Did you want to read it?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:25:08] Yes. So this is the last part of the book. This is the end note. And it comes so the end of the book. So the phrase ex Mormon. Sorry, the phrase ex. Ex Mormon has kicked around the Internet for a while. When I first heard it, the term immediately resonated with me. It is the promise that someday you'll be unconditionally free from Mormonism and ex Mormonism. Mormonism is an obsessive headspace and the deconstruction and emotional demands of becoming ex Mormon can be even more taxing. I may not yet be at the XX Mormon stage, but I know many people who are. If an old friend who left the church several years ago knocks on my door and I say what is wanted when I answer.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:25:48] There's a pause before the laugh of recognition. Mormonism is no longer right at the surface. It is an old memory that requires dusting. In the initial months of leaving the LDS Church, binging podcasts, TikTok and history books is completely normal. When I first left the church, I wanted to talk about it constantly with everyone I met. Becoming an ex Mormon is a phase of intense discovery and renegotiation, but after you process the loss of faith, the world opens even further.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:26:15] When you break up with someone you've dated for a while, you probably spend some time staring at their social media accounts, asking friends if they've bumped into your ex and writing in your journal about the relationship. After some time, you start looking outward again and suddenly your barista or classmate or co worker is looking awfully cute. When I was a teenager, I thought breakups would break me and now I can hardly remember names. This is how I view becoming an ex Mormon. The breakup is over, your heart is free and you are ready to fall deeply in love with a new life, free from your abusive religion.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:26:45] I hope you become so ex ex Mormon this book becomes completely irrelevant to you. I see you picking up this book, thumbing through the pages and letting out a sigh of recognition. If you are firmly in the XX Mormon phase of your life, don't lose this book in the back of your closet or donate to the goodwill void. Here's what I hope you do instead.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:27:04] Hold on to it and keep it safe. Write your ex Mormon testimony inside the COVID Wait for the right moment. Inevitably, someone close to you will reach out with some old familiar words. You'll open your phone and see the message. I wanted to reach out to see if you could share more about leaving the church. Church I've been going through a faith crisis and it's been incredibly hard. I'm still going to church, but I have little to no faith that any of it is true. I'm struggling and I'm not sure what to do. Save this book for when you get that message and along with your conversations and the support I'm sure you'll offer.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:27:33] Ask for their address. Send this book to the next person who needs it. I hope as you drop it in the post, there's a smile on your face. The bad break it up is over. Time to fall in love with yourself, your new life and everything in the world waiting for you. The end.

John Dehlin [03:27:47] Mark, you love. You love that. Do you want to say why you loved it?

Margi Dehlin [03:27:51] Oh, I just. I feel like it is. It stands on its own. The Optimism. The I love the analogy just worked.

John Dehlin [03:28:02] Yeah. Hold that book up again. Tell us what the book is.

Book Details, Resources, and Closing Thoughts

Alyssa Grenfell [03:28:06] This is how to Leave the Mormon Church, An Ex Mormon's Guide to Rebuilding After Religion by Alyssa Grenfell, with a foreword by Dr. John Dehlin, founder and host of Mormon Stories. And it is a guide to once you have a faith crisis, asking what should I do next? And helping you work through some of those questions and giving you ideas on how to solve them.

John Dehlin [03:28:30] And I do not get a cut from the book. It's purely because I believe in it and think it'll help people. So. So right now, please go to the link in the description. Click on that Amazon link. Buy this book. Buy copies for your friends and family. Let's make this book as ubiquitous, or more ubiquitous than the CES letter and Mormon Stories. Because really, being an ex Mormon isn't about hating Joseph Smith. Being an ex Mormon isn't about tearing down the church.

John Dehlin [03:29:01] Being an ex Mormon isn't about being on Reddit or binging ex Mormon podcasts. It's about creating and living the healthiest, happiest, best life you possibly can. And it's about reconstruction and healing and growth. And that's what this book is trying to nurture. And that's why we felt so passionately about giving Alyssa eight hours on Mormon Stories to help promote it. So please buy it and support it and share it. Margi, are you holding it up?

Margi Dehlin [03:29:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:29:31] Does it have the Margi endorsement as well?

Margi Dehlin [03:29:32] Thank you, Alyssa. A gift of a resource like we just honor. We honor its birth into the world. And for all the effort, all those early mornings of you writing, sending it out into the void, and then here it is, and it's in like it was. Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:29:52] Well, thank you both. And I also wanted to add, I've had actually quite a few people say they want the book, but that they're afraid because they share an Amazon account or some account with their family that their family will see it. So if that is you, if you want it, but you're worried or nervous that someone might see that you bought it, you can go to my website, which is howtolevethemormonchurch.com and email me and I will help you get a copy that is not as easily trackable as. Yes, that's a little more anonymous.

John Dehlin [03:30:23] What's your email address?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:30:24] My email address? It's very easy. Alyssa D. Grenfellmail.com all right.

John Dehlin [03:30:30] I should also mention your freaking TikTok and YouTube are just blowing up. So you want to tell people about those because that's the main reason so many people have joined. They just love your TikTok. So make sure you talk about it.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:30:43] Well, hello from. Hello to the people from TikTok and YouTube. My name on TikTok is just the same as my email, Alyssa D. Grenfell. And I have, I think, I don't know, 60 something on TikTok and 40 something on YouTube. And I have loved. It's been so amazing to see. I mean, six months ago I think I had 3,000 or something. So it's been very cool to see the response of people and the direct messages of people sharing that my content has or my videos have really connected with them and helped them and even helped. I think my favorite compliment is just that my videos have helped them feel like they have hope and that they feel like it was okay that they chose to leave the church and feel validated.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:31:30] And so you can follow me on TikTok or YouTube. You can check out my book if you're wondering more about this process that I've experienced leaving the church. And I really appreciate all of the support from all of the people just commenting and sharing. And I hope that. I hope my dream for this book has always been, since I wrote it in my notes app when the idea was born, that this can truly become a resource that people turn to when they are in the depths of despair, that they've lost their faith and that it lifts them up from this horrible place. They're in love.

John Dehlin [03:32:10] It's. It's a gift, right? It can be a gift.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:32:13] It's my gift to you. Yeah, I hope it's a good one.

John Dehlin [03:32:16] So Kara Burrell, Nuance Ho, entered the comments. She wanted to share that you, Alyssa, are going over to Kara's to record tomorrow. So people should know if you. If you just haven't gotten enough of Alyssa Grenfell, there's more. There's more.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:31] And with Kara, with Kara's.

John Dehlin [03:32:33] No, that's humor and wit and her angle. So we love you, Kara. We love Nuance, so support Nuance. So also want to share this comment from Suzanne? She writes, I'm still in the ex Mormon phase, so thank you for this content to help me get to my ex ex Mormon life. Yeah, thanks for the comment. Thanks for the super chat. And I'll just say please subscribe to this channel.

John Dehlin [03:33:01] Please like this episode. Please share it with as many people as possible. And we just want to always thank our monthly donors that make Mormon stories in the Oba Stories foundation possible. And we thank Those who throw us a super chat donation here and there because we, we pay our staff and we try to pay them generously, and we do that because of the financial support from viewers and listeners like you. So thanks to everyone who makes this content possible. Thanks to Margi. You make this show better and you make me better.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:33] It's such a pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin [03:33:34] Yeah, thank you.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:33:36] Yeah, I'm really grateful you were here too. I feel like it's so nice to. I don't know, I love all of your takes on the book and your. Honestly, I think putting a creative project out into the world can be so intimidating. So you've helped me feel a lot more confidence while we've been talking, so I appreciate it.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:54] Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:33:56] And let's make this book a better seller than Joseph Smith's the Book of Mormon. Right. Which is trending in that direction.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:03] Right?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:34:03] Yes. Right now I'm outranking Joseph Smith. So help me keep outranking him with those shoulders.

John Dehlin [03:34:08] You're outranking Joseph Smith. That's outrageous.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:34:11] I know.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:11] There.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:34:11] I always think that there's. I think the church reports that there's 17 million members of the church currently. So let's sell 17 million copies to all the members, then I want to cut.

John Dehlin [03:34:22] If you get. If you say 17 million copies. No, I'm kidding. All right, well, thanks, Alyssa Grenfell. Keep up the good work. Do you plan on launching a YouTube channel, like more formally? Do you know yet?

Alyssa Grenfell [03:34:35] Yeah, I've been. So far I've been really focused on the short TikTok videos, but I'm hoping to branch out and become a little bit more established in longer form content. I'd love to interview people like you guys do and talk more about some. I think people love just the explanations of some of the doctrines. Like I just did a video about the Garden of Eden or, you know, Adaman Dayamin. People, you know, people, I think Mormon and ex Mormon and never Mormon, find this stuff super fascinating. So follow me. Definitely there. And I'm excited to keep making some of the longer form videos that delve more deeply into these topics.

John Dehlin [03:35:16] And tell me. Oh, this would be the last question I ask in your TikTok. Sometimes you dress up in Mormon temple clothes. That's viewed by many as like super blasphemous, awful. I bet you have a. I bet you thought that through. I bet you have a reason for doing that.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:35:30] Yeah. And I have some videos addressing those comments. The first is I. I look more critically at the Mormon Church because I think it does a lot of harm. Specifically, like we talked about yesterday and even today, I think that the Mormon Church asks for a lot of respect because it's a religion, but it also doesn't give respect to a lot of people. And so I think things that ask for respect but aren't respectful don't deserve unconditional deference and respect, but deserve to be criticized. And so as far as the temple clothing goes and the temple explanations, I make those to give first some criticism and explanation, but also because I believe that any investigator who is ever choosing to join the church should be given that information.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:36:23] I think that the idea that someone would join the church and have no idea that the temple ceremony takes place, that kids will be baptized and sing, I love to see the temple. I'm going there someday and have no idea what takes place in the temple.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:36:35] Despite the fact that the temple is the penultimate ritual of, you know, the endowment is the most important ritual of Mormonism is unethical. I think ultimately it is unethical to expect people to join without having any sort of information about that. And so I don't inherently think that information is disrespectful. I understand that some people might be offended. And I would never ask.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:37:00] I would never meet a Mormon and say make fun of their garments or ask to see them or ask if they're wearing them one on one. I don't think anyone should ever be disrespectful to another human being, Mormon, or are non Mormon. But ideas like Mormonism, dogmas like Mormonism, organizations like Mormonism, I don't believe are beyond reproach. I think that criticism is part of. I think criticism is deserved. When an organization does not respect everyone in the same way, it demands respect.

John Dehlin [03:37:33] Yeah. Love it. All right, Alyssa Grenfell, thanks again. It's great to have you. We look forward to seeing you skyrocket.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:42] That's right.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:37:42] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:43] Wishing you all the best.

John Dehlin [03:37:44] Yeah.

Alyssa Grenfell [03:37:45] Thank you all. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [03:37:46] And thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. We love all our listeners, all our viewers, and we appreciate all our staff, whether it's Maven or Julia or Gerardo, Brooklyn, Margi, our board of directors. We couldn't do all this without our staff and without the support and all our fellow co hosts like Nemo and Mike and. And Julia and. And others. I'm sure I'm forgetting people, but thanks for joining us today. Tune in next time. We've got great stuff coming up. Be good to each other, Be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.