Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's October 14, 2026, the day after Margi's birthday. And today we are going to be answering the question, what happens when a woman who is a convert to the church, married in the temple to her faithful Mormon husband in it to win it, kids doing all the things, loses her faith. What's that like for her? What's it like when she tries to tell her multi generational believing husband what does that do in their marriage and then how do navigate life now, now that she no longer believes and he is still in it and in it to win it. We have with us today in studio to tell her and her family's Mormon story, Sophie Allen. Hey, Sophie.

Sophie Allen [00:00:46] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] Thanks for joining us.

Sophie Allen [00:00:48] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] And we're all blessed to also have with us in studio Margi. Hello. Happy birthday, Margi. Thank you, babe. Yeah, I

Margi Dehlin [00:00:57] appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Yesterday was fun. It was

Margi Dehlin [00:00:59] a great day.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] All right, well, Sophie, did I get anything wrong in the intro? Is that pretty much

Sophie Allen [00:01:05] no? No. Is

John Dehlin [00:01:06] your husband multi generational?

Sophie Allen [00:01:07] He is

John Dehlin [00:01:08] multi generational,

Sophie Allen [00:01:09] yeah. Well, yeah, his parents, so,

John Dehlin [00:01:14] okay, so his parents were at least

Sophie Allen [00:01:16] on his mother's side, multi generational. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] But the key, the themes that we, that I set up.

Sophie Allen [00:01:20] Absolutely. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] That's what we're going to talk about today. All right, really quickly, I'll just ask everyone, please if you can like and subscribe to this episode. We want to thank our donors that make everything possible here on Mormon Stories podcast. And if you want to support us, become a monthly donor mormonstories.org donate. We don't do product placement or product sponsorships. So your support is what keeps us alive. All right, so, Sophie, you traveled here from out of state.

Sophie Allen [00:01:48] I did.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] And normally I begin, oh, well, I guess. Do you want to give an intention before we actually start with your story?

Sophie Allen [00:01:56] I do have an intention,

John Dehlin [00:01:58] yeah. Why do you want to do this interview?

Sophie Allen [00:02:00] So part of my story, part of getting me through my story was podcasts through hearing other people's stories helped me feel it put words to how I was feeling and was just such a life support to me. So I feel like I need to give back. I need to contribute to that community. I recognize where people are and how helpful it was to me. So I want to share a story, my story. So that's part of the intention is to give back and support. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Beautiful. Well, thank you. Thanks for doing it. Well, normally I say, where does your Mormon story begin? But Your story begins before you were Mormon.

Sophie's Background and Upbringing

Sophie Allen [00:02:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So where does your non Mormon story begin?

Sophie Allen [00:02:46] Oh, I grew up in the Pacific Northwest. That's where my story begins. Grew up with a single mom who actually is a member of the church.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Oh,

Sophie Allen [00:03:04] yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] But she didn't raise glds.

Sophie Allen [00:03:06] No, no. Both my mother and my father were, I would say, raised me atheist. Probably no religion whatsoever. I knew that I had Mormon family, but I didn't know what that meant or anything like that. Just like someone says they have Catholic family or something like that. Just didn't know what it was. Grew up that way in the Northwest.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Growing up, did you know why your parents no longer attended or were raising ulds?

Sophie Allen [00:03:39] Nope. Never even talked about it.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:03:41] Just moved away from Utah. So if you move away from Utah, you're not practicing Mormon anymore.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] Yes. Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:03:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Okay. So raised by a single mom?

Sophie Allen [00:03:52] Raised by a single mom. Yes, I have. There were four girls and one boy. My oldest brother is 20 years older than me, and he grew up with my grandparents, and he learned about my birth when he was on a mission in Iceland. So he learned about me on his mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] So your oldest brother was lds. He grew up

Sophie Allen [00:04:21] in Utah and he did go serve a mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:04:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:25] Interesting.

Sophie Allen [00:04:26] But it was mostly my sisters and I that grew up together with my mom.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Got it.

Sophie Allen [00:04:30] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:04:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] And you are getting in the birth order. You were

Sophie Allen [00:04:35] the baby

John Dehlin [00:04:36] of five.

Sophie Allen [00:04:37] Yes. Okay. Yeah. The baby by nine years.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:04:41] The baby

John Dehlin [00:04:42] caboose.

Sophie Allen [00:04:42] Yes, very much

Margi Dehlin [00:04:44] so. Yeah.

Sophie Allen [00:04:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:45] So you had some space.

Sophie Allen [00:04:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:47] Kind of around you.

Sophie Allen [00:04:48] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:49] In the family.

Sophie Allen [00:04:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:50] How would you describe your childhood overall?

Sophie Allen [00:04:55] That's kind of hard to explain. I was very independent. It was my childhood. I am on the cusp of Generation X and millennial, and very independent was how my childhood was. How could I explain my childhood? Yeah, it was more like survival mostly. We're referred to as the feral generation. Yeah. Kind of raising ourselves and all that stuff. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] And was it intentionally secular, the upbringing, in terms of conversation? I don't think it was

Sophie Allen [00:05:43] intentional. I don't think so. Whenever. Whenever neighborhood kids would invite me to church, my mom was like, sure, go ahead. And, you know. And I was part of the generation that the bus would come around the neighborhoods and you could hop on the bus and go to church, and I would go occasionally. But yeah, they weren't anti anything. But they never talked about Mormonism or anything like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:08] Yeah. How would you. So if you were to try to describe the family culture in your home as you Experienced it. Is that difficult to do or is that something you can do?

Sophie Allen [00:06:21] I think it is difficult to explain our family culture.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:25] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [00:06:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:26] How about you? Your personality and what you remember as a girl, how you felt growing up, places where you felt safe or alive and happy, if there were any, or we could even say, like, places of refuge. Were you a high anxiety kid? Were you extroverted? Things like that?

Sophie Allen [00:06:53] I would say I was extroverted. I probably did experience anxiety, but no one talked about anything like that. I did. At the age of 14, my mom got remarried and moved to an island in Alaska. And so I moved into my sister's home at that time. And so I was really on my own for most of it.

Sophie Allen [00:07:21] So. But as far as family traditions, as far as my family had them, we love to eat, we love to travel. Travel was always a comfort for me. I traveled independently a lot. My parents were divorced, and I was of the generation where my dad would put me.

Sophie Allen [00:07:45] My parents would put me on a bus so they didn't have to drive each other back and forth. So I would ride the Greyhound bus back and forth, visitations. And this was like age 7. And so it got to a point by the time I was age 8 or 9, I would walk into the bus station and buy bus tickets for myself. And I quickly learned that I had money in my pocket and I could go anywhere I wanted to go, and I would.

Sophie Allen [00:08:12] So when I say independent, I really mean independent. Yeah. But my sisters always loved me and parented me the best that they could. And. And we were as much of a family network as we could have been for those situations. We're all very, very independent, but also always loved and supported each other. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] Your outline has you moving out at age 13.

Sophie Allen [00:08:42] Yeah. Yeah. That was when my mom moved to Alaska, an island in Alaska. And I moved in with my sister. And that worked for about a year or so, and then I moved, went off on my own. And then you're

John Dehlin [00:08:56] on your own at 14. How does that work?

Sophie Allen [00:09:04] I guess it could be referred to as couch surfing. I guess for a while, just found places to live.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:15] Did that feel at the time? Were you experiencing it as desperation? Were you experiencing it as adventure? Like, what was your framing at the time of that? Was it survival or.

Sophie Allen [00:09:30] Looking at the time, it was probably adventure at the time. Looking back, I see it as just merely being young and surviving. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Okay. So how did that go from like 14, 15 on just kind of couch surfing.

Sophie Allen [00:09:50] And my sweet older sister married a gentleman. And I. So my Sister Suanne married Jeff, and we had a sweet relationship. We had a good connection. And when they decided to get married and they moved away to Olympia, Washington, Jeff said that he would not go without me. And so they came and found me and scooped me up and we moved to Olympia, Washington. And from that point on, I lived a pretty. Pretty good life. Went to high school and traveled and discovered the Olive Garden, and life was pretty good. Life was pretty good for me in high school.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:37] Okay. So it kind of stabilized, it sounds like, for a moment in high school.

Sophie Allen [00:10:42] It did, yeah. And then they moved away from Olympia High School, and in my June, in the middle of my junior year, they moved away. And so I stayed in Olympia in my own apartment and finished high school

Margi Dehlin [00:10:59] in

Sophie Allen [00:11:00] Olympia. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] Dang. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:02] Wow.

Feeling Lost and Searching in High School

Sophie Allen [00:11:03] So very independent.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:05] Very

Sophie Allen [00:11:05] independent.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] And did you feel lost? Did you feel like you had an identity? Did you feel like you longed for what other kids had? Did you feel like you were the luckiest kid in the world? Like, most of the time at this point in a Mormon Stories episode, you're in seminary, you're faithful in the church, you're getting ready for a mission, you know, you're talking to a bishop about the law of chastity or something.

Sophie Allen [00:11:33] No, I probably felt all of those things. I probably felt free and fun and exciting and scared and nervous, and I probably experienced all of it. But it was just more about taking care of myself. When I moved to Olympia, I moved to an ideal that was kind of like it might as well have been in a movie, you know, the cheerleaders, the football, the nice cars, and just a social dynamic that I hadn't been part of before. And so I longed to fit in, you know, I longed to have the nice car and the nice clothes and things like that and find friends. And I remember being in class and being hungry and wishing that I had a parent to call to bring me food, but I didn't, and I was on my own, you know, So I did long for some things, but of course, cool.

Sophie Allen [00:12:26] The other kids thought I was pretty cool because I lived on my own, you know, So I did meet some Mormons when I moved there. I remember, because I didn't know anybody, and I wanted to make friends. And I remember meeting a young man in one of my classes, and he. I was like, oh, you're Mormon. I'm Mormon, too. You know, and he's all, really?

Sophie Allen [00:12:52] Are you sure about that? And I was like, yeah, I've got Mormon family. And then he's like, oh, okay. And I Remember him talking to someone about something fun they were gonna go do. And I was like, well, why don't they invite me? You know? But I clearly would not have fit in.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:10] So

John Dehlin [00:13:11] did you, like, there's the. There's jocks and there's preppies and there's, you know, different common identities in high school in the, what, 90s?

Sophie Allen [00:13:23] Yep. Graduated in 97, so 93 to 97.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] So did you have one of those identities? Big Breakfast Club. Who were you in the Breakfast Club?

Sophie Allen [00:13:32] Oh,

John Dehlin [00:13:33] were you the Ali Sheedy character?

Sophie Allen [00:13:37] Yeah. Kind of depended on the day. I really could chameleon with whoever I was with. And by that time, I got to kind of experience all those characters besides the jock. A little bit of a jock. I was into water sports, but fortunately, I kind of got to experience all of them, be all those characters.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] So. So many people who end up leaving the church end up wishing they hadn't been raised Mormon. You weren't raised Mormon?

Sophie Allen [00:14:10] No.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] And you ended up Mormon. So was there a big hole? Like, I guess we can talk about your move to Utah and how you ended up in the church, but, like, by the time you're graduating from high school, I don't want to jump over anything, but I'm wondering, like, in some ways, you're every ex Mormon's dream. But you know what? What I think we try to remind people is growing up is just hard. It doesn't matter in some sense, how you're raised.

Sophie Allen [00:14:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] So what was it like for you? Was there a big gaping hole? Were you. Were you feeling a desire for control or structure or identity or meaning or purpose or any of that stuff? Spirituality, community?

Sophie Allen [00:14:56] I don't know that I was longing for that. You can't miss something you don't really know you're missing. But when I heard about it, when I was learned about those things, that sense of community, that sense of purpose, that sense of direction, that sense of knowing and learning about forgiveness and things like that. Yeah, I really gravitated towards it, for sure. Yeah, it was comforting to learn about those things. I can share about how I was introduced to the church. I was. I was a single mom. I had my oldest son and I.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] By what age?

Sophie Allen [00:15:40] 21. 21, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] Was that in Utah or.

Sophie Allen [00:15:45] I had my child in Long Beach, Washington.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:15:49] So where I live, Astoria and Washington. All you have to do is cross a bridge. So it's Oregon, and Washington is right there. And so I was a single mom there.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] I guess I should ask, when you graduate from high school, do you have a sense for what you want your life to be like. And then how did you end up with the child?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:09] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [00:16:10] I always a sense of what I wanted my life to be like.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Like career or, you know, family or.

Sophie Allen [00:16:19] No, I didn't. I wasn't thinking about family. I wasn't thinking about having children or marriage or anything like that. It was just wanting to be as successful as I possibly could be.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:33] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [00:16:33] yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:34] I think what I. What's really hitting me here is the idea of the experience of survival, like what it feels like actually, because what I'm hearing is like there is no template, there is no blueprint. Right.

Sophie Allen [00:16:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:50] And so what you had was a lot of exploration, probably some, some places of freedom though it also feels like you also had a lot of responsibility that the average high schooler didn't have as well. So it's like this mixed up bag. I can see the priming, like why the message of Mormonism, you'd be kind of primed for it in some ways. But what I'm really hearing from you is sort of, you know, what it feels like with a lot of instability and no blueprint meaning like a family structure or expectations that come from a kind of family structure. Right. And then how survival feels to the nervous system and in your brain and the amount of reflection you're able to do when you've got all these things you're trying to kind of.

Sophie Allen [00:17:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:49] Is that right?

Sophie Allen [00:17:50] Yeah, yeah. And everyone in, in my sphere was living similar lives, you know, of survival and independence and things like that. I actually lived for a time in downtown Salt Lake. So after high school I did community college and then I moved into my brother's home to kind of experience a new life to.

Sophie Allen [00:18:18] And he lives in South Jordan, Utah. So I actually went from living in Seattle, Washington to South Jordan, Utah. And that was a huge culture shock that was exciting and an adventure in its own. And I eventually made friends and moved into apart an apartment downtown Salt Lake and moved some of my friends from Oregon here and just was living a good fun life in downtown Salt Lake. And that was kind of how I learned about the Mormon religion was through my brother and his wife and their children. So that was a blueprint. That was the first time I was introduced to a blueprint of the Mormon life. And I loved it. What age

Margi Dehlin [00:18:58] is this? How old

Sophie Allen [00:19:01] is 19? 19, 20, 21. Yeah, yeah. So shortly after high school. Yeah. Went to church with them a couple times. My niece and nieces and nephews were in high school at the Time. And so got to see what their life was like in high school, living a Mormon life. That was where I learned about seminary. That's where I learned about things. And. Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:19:28] so. And this is going to sound like a rough question, but it's not coming from a rough place. So a Mormon girl would be taught, obey the law of chastity or you'll end up a single mom with an unwed pregnancy, you know, in your late teens or early twenties. That's how your. That's how your early adulthood began. Was that a good thing in your mind? Was it an accident? Was it a horrible thing, like how seeing that you ended up living the, quote, nightmare of any young women's leader for her young woman. What was that like for you?

Sophie Allen [00:20:07] That's kind of interesting because. Because I had lived such an independent life. I was kind of an old soul. You know, I had experienced so many things by the time I had found out I was pregnant. It actually was kind of an exciting, normal flow of time, honestly, for me, because I had lived so much life up until that point. So

John Dehlin [00:20:31] I guess you could have not had the baby.

Sophie Allen [00:20:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] You chose it. You chose to have the baby.

Sophie Allen [00:20:36] Yeah, I was. I just instantly felt a love for my child and was like, okay, this. I. I had seen single parents. I had mostly known single parents. I had proven to myself that I could support myself. So it was kind of a wonderful addition to my life.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Oh,

Sophie Allen [00:20:55] yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] So was it the nightmare.

Sophie Allen [00:20:57] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] That ever. Everyone. It wasn't without

Sophie Allen [00:21:00] challenges. For sure. There were some, but I wasn't accustomed to extreme challenges.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:06] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [00:21:07] So,

John Dehlin [00:21:09] yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:09] And in many ways, I mean, too, like, thinking about how you grew up, it feels like you had people step forward at different times to offer care. It also feels like that that changed a bit. Like, also, it wasn't permanent. I guess I should say so. You've been alone in the world for a good amount of time in your life. And so was that part of it, too, an idea of having someone. Someone to care for someone?

Sophie Allen [00:21:45] Sure, yeah. Yeah. That part of it felt natural. Yeah. Yeah. Then my, you know, after I found out I was expecting a child, that's when my brain started shifting to, what does parenting look like? What does a family look like? But what would be the ideal situation to raise my child? And that's. My brain started to shift. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] So that's a big question I have. Because you had been raised without a religion. So it's interesting to me that the question in your mind would be, do I need a religion to raise my Kid, when you had been raised with that one, why would you have even thought you needed or wanted a religion?

Sophie Allen [00:22:28] So that's kind of a cute story. I delivered my child. And here I am looking at this amazing creature, this amazing baby. I'm feeling feelings that I had never felt before. And I felt a closeness to. The only words I had was God. You know, here was this life, this gift that I had. And I just instinctively felt like I wanted to thank God for my baby. My child, my healthy, beautiful baby. I mean, the love I just experienced. Something that is hard to explain.

Discovering the Church as a Young Adult

Margi Dehlin [00:23:11] Larger than yourself.

Sophie Allen [00:23:12] Yes, yes. And so my brother in law, Jeff, the one that I'm really close with, I kind of was. He's Catholic. And I told him that I kind of felt like I wanted to thank God for this gift. And he, being Catholic, said, good luck with that. You know, I was kind of thinking, well, maybe we could go to church maybe, you know, something. Well, literally, very next day, I lived on my own, had my own house. My son and I lived in our own place. Literally the next day, the elders knocked on my door.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:50] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Oh. So that almost feels like divine

Margi Dehlin [00:23:54] timing of

Sophie Allen [00:23:55] that. And I kind of had to laugh. And I opened the door and. And I. I think I remember said something like, how did you find me? And of course, the look on their face is like, what? You know, this is great. You know,

John Dehlin [00:24:09] we call this a golden investigator.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:11] I know they were like.

Sophie Allen [00:24:12] I said, I want to thank God for my baby, you know, and. And, yeah, so that's how that started.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] And that was in Washington?

Sophie Allen [00:24:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:24:21] Washington state. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] So you started taking the discussions when you're 21?

Sophie Allen [00:24:26] Yeah, 21.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Pregnant or with a baby?

Sophie Allen [00:24:28] With a baby.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:24:29] With a baby at that

John Dehlin [00:24:30] point. Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:24:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] How'd that go?

Sophie Allen [00:24:32] It was fun. It was Elder Skene, Elder Bingham and Elder Brigham. Yeah, Bingham. Yeah, Bingham. And bring him. Yeah, it was really great. Of course, not knowing the culture or anything. I invited them in and they kind of just stood in my doorway or whatever. And then they came back with other branch members. It was a branch over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually Elder Bingham got to be there at my baptism. No discussions. And then also at my husband and I's sealing in the temple before he went home on his mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] So you got baptized there in Washington?

Sophie Allen [00:25:21] I did. In the Long beach branch. Okay. Yeah, that branch was wonderful. They were just loving and welcoming and. Yeah, they were great.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] And anything else before we moved to Utah?

Sophie Allen [00:25:36] Yeah, there's quite a bit in there. I met my Husband.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Oh, okay, okay. Him there.

Sophie Allen [00:25:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] All right, let's. Well, whatever you, wherever your story goes

Sophie Allen [00:25:43] next, the missionaries, it was just, you know how they have to give an interview before you get baptized? Well, we were outside because it was just them and me, single mom. So we're outside in the grass and they're like, well, now you're going to be baptized. Now what are we going to do with you? And I'm like, well, I don't know. And they're like, describe the perfect man.

Sophie Allen [00:26:02] So of course, I had no trouble describing my perfect man, you know, with characteristics that I thought were important. Hard working, smart, funny, described what I physically liked and all this stuff. And I remember they were sitting there and they slapped their hands on the chair and they both leaned forward and they looked at each other and they're like, Brother Allen.

Sophie Allen [00:26:25] And I'm like, he was in, I was in the Long beach branch and Brother Allen was just came home from his mission on the Philippines. And they were like, we gotta go. So they left. I was like, okay, bye. See you at my baptism, you know. And then I was at work and they brought Greg Allen into my work to introduce us.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] I've never heard of Long Beach, Washington.

Sophie Allen [00:26:50] Long Beach, Washington,

John Dehlin [00:26:52] where is that? Near Olympia.

Sophie Allen [00:26:54] If you go the farthest southwest, right before it meets Oregon is where Long Beach, Washington is.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:02] Yeah. Could I ask you a follow up with regard to. You had mentioned originally, I think being curious about religion because of the immense gratitude you felt when you had your first baby, Right?

Sophie Allen [00:27:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:19] So during the process, I would say the discussion process with Mormonism, did some of those questions you kind of alluded to earlier about purpose or what you want your family to look like or what, you know, being able to kind of have dreams maybe. Did any of the. Were any of those things birthed amidst your discussions with kind of the Mormon missionaries?

Sophie Allen [00:27:50] So I had my brother and his wife as an example of an ideal family. So during those discussions was where I was taught kind of how that family lived and thought and believed and why they, their system worked that way. And so as they were teaching me the discussions or the plan of happiness or teaching, I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. That's why they pray, that's why they say those things. That's why they live their life that way. So that was, that was where that blueprint came from.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:27] Okay. And then a quick question. So to me, it feels like you had a life with not a traditional structure. Let's just say how did it feel to be living with Your brother. Do you remember how. Because I view Mormonism as a highly structured religion. Lived just all the ritual, all the things you have to do, all that. Right. Did you experience that as a positive or, like, you sound independent. Granted, it's. It's survival independent because you kind of also had to be. Right. But, like, I'm just curious, like, did it hit you as like a balm of predictability? Or was it like, how did you. Was it alluring? I guess was it enticing? The structure that the church provided, living with your brother, but also as the missionaries are talking to you,

Sophie Allen [00:29:28] probably an enticing.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:30] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [00:29:30] Yeah. I would say that that balm or that calm came through the repentance process, probably.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:41] Did

John Dehlin [00:29:42] you feel like you had to repent? Who told you you would say

Sophie Allen [00:29:46] this normally? Just flatline. No, I thought I was living in pretty. Not normal, but

John Dehlin [00:29:56] honorable.

Sophie Allen [00:29:57] I didn't look at it as sinning. I was just living.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] Right.

Sophie Allen [00:30:01] But of course, the idea of, you know, I did things wrong, you know the idea. Okay. So learning about a heavenly father was really enticing to me. Learning about, okay, there's a father in heaven that all loves you, is unconditionally loving you, that was really enticing to me. So I really gravitated towards that. What

John Dehlin [00:30:28] did you like about that?

Sophie Allen [00:30:30] Well, I had a relationship with my father, but he wasn't always there. He was kind of a cowboy. We did have a good relationship. I knew he loved me, but that we didn't have the father daughter relationship. So learning what I guess I put in my mind's eye, what the perfect ideal father would be, would be God in heaven that loves me unconditionally is there for me, watching me, looking over, you know, wanting to help me along the way, that support. So that was really enticing.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:09] Yeah, yeah.

Sophie Allen [00:31:09] And then the repentance process was more like being able to just be washed clean and starting new. I don't know that I ever internalized sin necessarily. Yeah, all of it.

Appeal of Eternal Family and Conversion

John Dehlin [00:31:28] What about. I'm realizing more and more how enticing the endowment plus the eternal family and the ceiling was in the early years of the church and all along, did the missionaries talk to you about eternal families and did they make it sound like you wouldn't be with your son in heaven if you weren't sealed?

Sophie Allen [00:31:50] No, they didn't make it sound like that. And looking, of course, I'm looking back on all those experiences, but the idea of an eternal family. Mormonism is one of the only religions that puts it conditional and so it just all sounded good, if that makes sense. I don't know that I ever questioned that I wouldn't be with my son, that that wouldn't carry on after death in some way.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] But who doesn't want an eternal family?

Sophie Allen [00:32:24] Right? Right, right. That dynamic did change when I met my husband and marrying him and him adopting my son and becoming an eternal family that way. And being written in the book, you know, written that God sees him as my husband's son. So, yeah, that became part of it. But I don't think the missionaries ever framed it in a conditional way, or at least I didn't pick up on it because I was already riding the wave. I was like, this all sounds really great.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] So were Joseph Smith of the Book of Mormon or any of that important parts of your conversion?

Sophie Allen [00:33:05] We always read from the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith. And the first vision sounded good. I probably didn't put too much thought. It just felt good. So that was my answer to all of it, was it just felt good. Yeah. I think I did ask about polygamy, and I was given the explanation that it was needed at the time because so many husbands were. Had passed away. So it was a way to take care of. Have it be appropriate to take care of women and stuff like that. And I was like, okay, that sounds good. So

John Dehlin [00:33:47] too many women in Utah got a polygamy so that they can all get married.

Sophie Allen [00:33:51] Yeah. And of course, marriage to me was kind of an open interpretation, so who was I to judge? You know, I was like, okay, so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:34:02] Yeah.

Baptism, Courtship, and Temple Marriage

John Dehlin [00:34:03] So you were baptized before you met your husband?

Sophie Allen [00:34:06] I was okay. Well, no, I think I met him and then I was baptized, and then he actually was there for the Sunday that I received the Holy Ghost.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:17] Okay,

Sophie Allen [00:34:18] so part

Margi Dehlin [00:34:19] of the process.

Sophie Allen [00:34:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] So did you, like, start dating immediately or

Margi Dehlin [00:34:22] what do you remember about when you met him, what you thought?

Sophie Allen [00:34:27] I could see why physically they entered. You know, I was attracted to him. It was kind of funny. I was working in a restaurant and I worked the lunch shift, and then there was a break, and I went back and worked the dinner shift. And in that break, they were like, so what are you going to do during your break? And I said, well, I got to go to Costco and buy diapers.

Sophie Allen [00:34:48] And apparently I left the table. And apparently Greg had asked, why does she have to go buy diapers? So they hadn't told him that I had a son. And they were like, well, she has a son, or whatever.

Sophie Allen [00:35:03] But he was a returned missionary, and so he was kind of getting back into life from the Philippines. And I walked him and the elders out to their car or whatever, and I saw his car, and it kind of looked like he maybe liked music that I wasn't entirely into. I kind of, like, wanted a tough guy, you know? And I asked him, I said, do, you know, do you like rap music? And he didn't know how to answer that question.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] And

Sophie Allen [00:35:37] he's like, well, yeah. And so I kind of wrote him off a little bit. I was like, I don't think he's. I don't think he's that guy or whatever. But he continued to ask me out, and I kind of continued to blow him off a little bit. But my branch president at the time called me in and said, hey, I got word that this returned missionary is courting you. I counsel you to go on a date with him.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:04] Wow.

Sophie Allen [00:36:04] And I was like, oh, okay. You know, the president asked me to do that, so I agreed. And our first date was Institute.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] Tell never Mormons what that is.

Sophie Allen [00:36:17] Is it an adult class for? It's

John Dehlin [00:36:20] like religious instruction for college age

Sophie Allen [00:36:22] kids. Yeah. So he invited, I invite, Blew off, like, jet skiing and all this other stuff. And he's like, will you go to institute with me? And sure I did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] What a hot date.

Sophie Allen [00:36:36] He quickly learned that I was a very independent woman. We went to a nice restaurant, I had my own money, I ordered what I wanted, and if he couldn't afford it, I was gonna pay for it. But he later told me, and I love hearing his side of the story of these things. You know, he's like, she's an expensive date, you know, and things like that. And. But we ended up having a really great time and we really connected. And every time he asked me out after that, we were. We were together. And then he. He left me and moved away to Weber State

John Dehlin [00:37:14] here in Ogden, Utah.

Sophie Allen [00:37:16] Yeah. Ogden, Utah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:17] Okay,

John Dehlin [00:37:17] so he left you?

Sophie Allen [00:37:18] He left me.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] How long did you date before he.

Sophie Allen [00:37:21] Oh, that's a good question. I want to say, like, four months maybe. Yeah. And so I flew out to visit him during the Olympics.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] 2002.

Sophie Allen [00:37:30] Yes. Yeah. And it flew out, and when I landed, it was like a Sunday or something like that. And I was hungry and a little cranky and had just flown there, and I wanted to go get something to eat. And he's like, well, let's go to the temple. Let's go to the Salt Lake temple. And I was like, okay, all right. But you're gonna feed me, right? You know,

Margi Dehlin [00:37:54] is there food there?

Sophie Allen [00:37:55] Yeah, Exactly. But it was Sunday, so you don't go shopping on Sunday, you know, so we're walking around and we try and go in, but because of the security during the Olympics, you had to empty your pockets. And he was like, well, let's just go walk. Let's look at the reflective pond or whatever. And so he took me over to the corner and then he proposed to me.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] Oh yeah. Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:38:18] And I was shocked. I did not know that was coming.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] I mean, that's within six months of meeting, right?

Sophie Allen [00:38:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] That's very Mormon.

Sophie Allen [00:38:25] Uh huh. And he was like, would you ever live in Utah again? And I was like, no, but I did for him.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Yeah. So you said yes?

Sophie Allen [00:38:34] I said yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] Was it hard to date a returned missionary Mormon who was, I assume, trying to live all the rules? Those are two totally different worlds.

Sophie Allen [00:38:46] Yeah, yeah. Kept the Book of Mormon between. And you know, he did like the affection and attention that I did pay to him that I was comfortable with, which was probably new to him.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:58] Right.

Sophie Allen [00:39:00] But yeah, we did the best we could do. And we did well. It helped that we didn't live in the same state while we were planning our wedding.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] And

Sophie Allen [00:39:09] the branch president that I was still with in Long beach, he was like, you know, we could get special permission for you to get married early. You know, we could pursue that. And I was like, no, it's okay. Wait a year from my baptism to get married in the temple. And that's what we did.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:30] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] So were you married civilly first?

Sophie Allen [00:39:32] No.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:39:33] No, we were married in the Portland, Oregon temple.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:36] So did you live apart till you were okay, so you had a long distance. We

Sophie Allen [00:39:41] did.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:42] Relationship for that time.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Oh, that's okay. So he stayed at Weber. You stayed in Long Beach.

Sophie Allen [00:39:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] And then you got married.

Sophie Allen [00:39:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] Okay. Yeah. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:53] What was your experience of actually being Mormon during that time? So

Sophie Allen [00:40:00] it was an adjustment for sure. Learning the could and could nots should and should not. I

Margi Dehlin [00:40:08] can imagine

Sophie Allen [00:40:09] you

John Dehlin [00:40:09] had to give up coffee, alcohol, tobacco, any of that.

Sophie Allen [00:40:13] I wasn't really into. I was a single mom. I was, you know, I wasn't really into all that stuff to begin with. The coffee was a little bit of a challenge because I had been drinking coffee since my high school. Had a Starbucks in it. Like,

Margi Dehlin [00:40:27] yeah,

Sophie Allen [00:40:28] yeah,

John Dehlin [00:40:28] that'd be a deal killer for me.

Sophie Allen [00:40:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] I'd

Margi Dehlin [00:40:30] be like, wait, wait, you're saying this is from God?

Sophie Allen [00:40:34] Yeah. But it was okay. Felt natural. There wasn't much of a challenge, I would say, at that season in my life. Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [00:40:44] it feels like it really showed up at a great fit of

Sophie Allen [00:40:50] a

Margi Dehlin [00:40:50] time for you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] All right. Go Mormon church.

Sophie Allen [00:40:54] Yeah. Yeah. My branch was really loving and welcoming and enjoyed educating me and embracing me and inviting me over for dinners. And

Margi Dehlin [00:41:04] it was

Sophie Allen [00:41:04] a really great sense of community. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] And was his family all on board with him marrying you?

Sophie Allen [00:41:09] His family was over in Astoria, Oregon. So we were in separate wards and I'm terrible at remembering names. And he brought his dad over to meet me and while we were standing there, I forgot his name and I had. What is your name again?

John Dehlin [00:41:26] I

Sophie Allen [00:41:26] had to say in front of his dad. So that was kind of embarrassing. Even though I was already enamored by him, you know. And I met his parents and elder, being an elder Skene, I think were there the first over for dinner because they had the elders over for dinner. And that's when I came in and met my future in laws. Met his parents for the first time. And I had a beautiful baby boy with me and I was wearing high heel leather boots with a leather jacket and a low cut red shirt, you know. And I actually was a cocktail waitress at that time. And I just come in and I remember looking over at the elders and they're just shoving food in their mouth and they're just watching this whole thing, just thinking, this is so awesome.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] Yeah. Cause Mormon parents want their son to marry a girl raised in the church, not a single mom who's a cocktail waitress.

Sophie Allen [00:42:25] Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] But you felt embraced or at least tolerated.

Sophie Allen [00:42:31] Yes. They were very kind, very sweet, Very kind at that moment. And I'm sure they were a little. Didn't know what to think. But I'm also sure that they can see why their son was attracted to me too.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Mormons love converts.

Sophie Allen [00:42:47] Yeah, that too.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [00:42:49] that too.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] Cause it's very validating that someone would join this church. What? You know?

Margi Dehlin [00:42:54] Yes. Yeah.

Sophie Allen [00:42:56] And I could see why they trusted Greg. Greg was very trustworthy, very level headed and all that stuff. I'm sure they were comforted by the fact that he was gonna move away to Ogden as well, you

Margi Dehlin [00:43:09] know.

Sophie Allen [00:43:10] So

Margi Dehlin [00:43:11] let me ask you this. Just because Greg's not here.

Sophie Allen [00:43:14] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:14] Will you color in Greg for us during this time? Like what you really appreciated about him, what stood out about him?

Sophie Allen [00:43:24] I was physically attracted to him. But his. He's a very. He's an engineer. He can figure things out. He's very independent as well. You put a challenge in front of him and he's gonna. So we connected on that level for sure. He was capable of working on vehicles and Engines and all these things. And super funny. Super funny. And we just had a great time together and adventurous and we just meshed, I guess. Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [00:44:05] yeah,

Sophie Allen [00:44:05] yeah. After I got over his thinking that he wasn't into the same music I was in, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] What were you into? He was into rap. Is that what you knew?

Sophie Allen [00:44:18] I was into everything, but I was just kind of just the way he came off, I was like, are you really my type?

John Dehlin [00:44:25] Who's your favorite band at the time? I have to ask?

Sophie Allen [00:44:29] Or

John Dehlin [00:44:29] some of your favorite musicians at the time?

Sophie Allen [00:44:33] I can't answer that at the

John Dehlin [00:44:34] moment.

Sophie Allen [00:44:35] Yeah, I'm way into music, but I'm into all genres of music.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Sorry. Okay, so you're married in 2003.

Sophie Allen [00:44:44] 2002.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] I know you were dating. Okay. I thought you had to wait till the next.

Sophie Allen [00:44:50] A

John Dehlin [00:44:50] year from your baptism.

Sophie Allen [00:44:51] I was baptized in July and we got married in July.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] Okay. Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:44:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Okay. And married in the Portland temple. And then you moved to Ogden?

Sophie Allen [00:45:00] Yes, right away. Right away. What

John Dehlin [00:45:02] was the. Was the temple good for you?

Sophie Allen [00:45:05] It was good for me and that my brother and my sister in law got to be there and a nephew that had just gotten home from his mission and. And it was a nice experience to be with family in a family connected way. We had never done rituals or ceremonies as far as a family before, so that felt good to do something as a family and to join together with my husband going. I. That was where I learned about going through for myself first. Before I married my husband. And my husband's family was all there and embraced me and everything like that. There were things about it that were strange, but again, I was entering into a life that I didn't know about, so everything was strange. So I thought, well, I'll learn more about that.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] The garments didn't bug you too much?

Sophie Allen [00:46:16] No, they didn't. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] Okay. All right. So you start your new life in. In Ogden.

Sophie Allen [00:46:22] Yeah. And

John Dehlin [00:46:23] y' all end up having how many kids together?

Sophie Allen [00:46:25] Two boys, two girls

John Dehlin [00:46:28] in addition to your.

Sophie Allen [00:46:29] Yeah, well, we had another son and two daughters.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:46:33] Yeah. So we ended up with two boys, two girls.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] Okay, Got

Sophie Allen [00:46:36] it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:46:37] And. And my husband adopted my son and we were sealed in the Portland, Oregon temple. And that was so sweet. And he got a little white bow tie, and

Margi Dehlin [00:46:46] it

Sophie Allen [00:46:46] was a special day, special moment

John Dehlin [00:46:48] just for the Never Mormons. You were sealed together in the temple, and then later you had a ceremony in the temple where your son was sealed to you and your new Mormon husband.

Sophie Allen [00:47:00] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] So that's a separate thing.

Sophie Allen [00:47:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] Than your temple marriage. So

Sophie Allen [00:47:04] when we got married in the temple, my husband and I were sealed for time and eternity. And then the children that we had together were born in the covenant, so they were all automatically sealed. But we went through a special ceremony for our son at the time. And the way it was explained to me was that it was now written in heaven that my son was his son, that God sees him that way. Which sounds beautiful. And it's also heartbreaking to say at the same time, because I felt that way anyway. It was nice to have a ceremony to make that happen, but I already felt that way and I still feel that way today. So that was part of the pain of when I was struggling the way I was struggling.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] We'll get there.

Sophie Allen [00:48:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] Was he kneeling? Was your son kneeling at the altar by that age with you and your husband? I

Sophie Allen [00:48:08] don't remember that part of it, but he just came in so adorable.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] They

Sophie Allen [00:48:12] had combed his hair to the side and he had this little white bow tie and a white outfit on. And he just looked adorable and ran in. I think he actually ran into my husband because he was in a separate room before they brought him into us. And so the temple worker brought that son in, and I remember him coming through the door and I think he ran to my husband's arms and not mine. Yeah. So, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:39] Sweet.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Well, for a single mom who was trying to find her way, it feels like marrying into an established Mormon family, getting baptized and then sealed and then have your kids sealed. It's a way. I'm not saying that you were of a different status, but like, if you're trying to, like, find something solid, it just feels like a way to be brought into the perception of status and respectability socially.

Sophie Allen [00:49:12] Yes. Yeah. And because I was so good at being a chameleon and picking up very quickly what I should and shouldn't do and how I need to behave and things like that. Yeah. I got very motivated and very into living as I was being taught I should. So I dove right into it, for

Margi Dehlin [00:49:35] sure. I think one thing I really relate to is this idea also of having a template when you don't grow up with. When you don't really grow up with one. And I feel like that's kind of part of my parents stories too. And it comes from this really beautiful place. I think of when you become a parent wanting to give

Building an Orthodox Mormon Family Life

Sophie Allen [00:50:01] your

Margi Dehlin [00:50:02] child something different.

Sophie Allen [00:50:04] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:05] And do really just write by them. And so I'm hearing that hard is just like the unappreciation for something some Type of support, some type of structure to move forward.

Sophie Allen [00:50:21] Yeah. And I was hearing these primary songs and I was hearing. I read the insign. I devoured the inside that was my scripture. And I'm in the friend and learning how to be a mom and how to have conversations and teach my toddlers and family home evening and just that blueprint. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:44] It's a life.

Sophie Allen [00:50:45] Yeah. Yeah. And the stories all seemed great to me and relatable and sweet and a good way to teach my children right from wrong because I learned right from wrong through the world through natural consequences. And if I could avoid the pains that I experienced and raise my children with different examples, it was great. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] So when you married your husband, did y' all kind of agree on a vision for how your life was going to be, what milestones you had hit, how what you were both. You know, today the Mormons talk about the covenant path. What was the covenant you made to the church and to each other? What was the understanding from that point forward?

Sophie Allen [00:51:39] I don't think we ever had an official conversation because everything was very implied. And it seemed staying home and raising my children, I don't think there was anything I wanted more.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:55] Yeah. So appealing to you.

Sophie Allen [00:51:57] Yes. Yeah. So I look at it differently now, but at the time it all made perfect sense to have to support my husband to finish college, not myself. I worked, I was a waitress. I helped support our family through him completing college. I forget the question.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] You would be a stay at home mom.

Sophie Allen [00:52:23] Yes. Yeah, yeah. We

John Dehlin [00:52:25] have babies and raised them as a stay at home mom.

Sophie Allen [00:52:28] We couldn't afford to have them, but we did anyway.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:31] Right. You were saying that the conversation there was not like an overt conversation because it was implied.

Sophie Allen [00:52:38] Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [00:52:39] yeah.

Sophie Allen [00:52:40] But my husband grew up with a very independent mother who had a successful business of her own. My husband's sisters were successful in their own right. So it wasn't too far of a fetch, I guess. But I gravitated more towards. I wanted to be home with the kids and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] So the traditional Mormon housewife mom sounded okay to

Sophie Allen [00:53:12] you? Sounded great, sounded ideal. So that when my kids were hungry at school, I could bring them food, I could be there. I was the first thing they saw before they to school. I was there when they came home. That all sounded ideal and perfect,

Margi Dehlin [00:53:27] but

Sophie Allen [00:53:28] I didn't get to live that life entirely. I went to work. So I was there for when they were little, when they don't remember me being there, but when they got older. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] And in a way, you are going to be. You're going to give to your kids the traditional family that you didn't get?

Sophie Allen [00:53:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] Was that important to you?

Sophie Allen [00:53:51] Very, very. And I didn't even have, really, a home, let alone my

Margi Dehlin [00:53:58] own

Sophie Allen [00:53:58] bedroom. And I remember when my husband and I built our house and I got to give each of our children their own

Margi Dehlin [00:54:06] bedroom.

Sophie Allen [00:54:06] That was a big deal to me. And put them to bed in their own bed at night. And, I mean, we had versions of that along the way, you know, but when we ultimately got to do that, it was great.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:19] It's interesting because, as you say that, it just reminds me so much about parenting in those moments where you realize you're kind of healing parts of yourself as you're giving things to your kids, and it can also simultaneously bring up loss. Like, you realize a little bit more of what you didn't have as well. Was that true for you? Healing and also at times or moments, bringing up loss.

Sophie Allen [00:54:52] Yeah. Twinges along the way. You don't have much of a brain when you have a bunch of toddlers in the house, but, like, putting them to bed and, you know, kneeling and praying and things like that. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. I was talking to my brother while I was here. We don't hold my siblings, and I don't hold a resentment towards our parents, and I don't. I can't tell you why we don't. We just recognize that they were doing the best that they could.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:25] Sure.

Sophie Allen [00:55:25] So I don't know that I had all that much pain, but I was just also very

Margi Dehlin [00:55:34] busy.

Sophie Allen [00:55:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:37] Full

Sophie Allen [00:55:37] life was

Margi Dehlin [00:55:38] full in a different way.

Sophie Allen [00:55:39] And excited to be living with my children and my husband, the life that I thought was great.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] So how many years were y' all just your orthodox in it to win it Mormon family, where both of you were full believers?

Sophie Allen [00:56:00] I'd say like 15, 16 years.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] Okay. So were you both serving in all the callings? Oh,

Sophie Allen [00:56:07] yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] So just to give us a sample,

Sophie Allen [00:56:09] so we finished our time in Ogden, Utah, and that was where I got to experience neighborhood living with other LDS people, other mothers, other mothers home with their children. That was an experience in itself. It was wonderful and challenging at the same time, you know, to. And I would take my kids to swimming lessons and all those great things and hiking clubs and, you know, wonderful time in the summertime in Utah. It was great. It was ideal. It was. And then we moved up to Astoria, back to Astoria, where his family was.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] Oregon.

Sophie Allen [00:56:42] Yeah. Astoria, Oregon. Yeah. And we were. How would you describe Pillar strong Members. So we got the callings, we got the service assignments. There wasn't a single activity within our ward that we were not involved in. That was when the labor came in. That was when I was just hit with a tremendous amount of labor while having small children at home.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:12] Yep.

Sophie Allen [00:57:13] Yeah. That so tricky. We were in it for everything.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] So like young women's. Young men's. Primary. Like,

Sophie Allen [00:57:23] primary. And I. It was kind of funny. I served for like five years in nursery, and then I moved into primary presidency, and then I eventually was young women's president.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] Okay.

Sophie Allen [00:57:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Did he ever do elders quorum president or any of that stuff? Bishopric or.

Sophie Allen [00:57:44] Is this sad? I don't remember his comments.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] That's fine. That's fine. That's good. That's good.

Sophie Allen [00:57:48] He was busy, though. He

John Dehlin [00:57:49] was with

Sophie Allen [00:57:50] the youth. Always. Always in campouts, always scouting. Yeah. Yeah.

Navigating Utah Mormon Culture as a Convert

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Okay. One totally tangential question. As someone who grew up in a untraditional way, was interacting with Utah Mormon moms or Utah women ever weird or hard or awesome or all of the above for you? All

Sophie Allen [00:58:19] of the above. All of the

John Dehlin [00:58:20] above Was ever a culture?

Sophie Allen [00:58:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Anything worth mentioning?

Sophie Allen [00:58:25] I'm trying to think of specifics. There were the women in our area that had like nine and 10 children and just lots of money and just their intensity of motherhood and intensity of doing everything that they should. I mean, their kids were memorizing all the articles of faith and all this stuff. And I struggled to have family home evenings, you know, so just the intensity of it. And there were some people that I got along with great because Mormons love converts. And then there were some that I did not get along with. So

John Dehlin [00:59:06] what about the way non Mormons were talked about at church, like they were lost? Or that if you drank, you were bad or if you had premarital sex, you were unworthy? As someone who had raised probably enjoying all sorts of types of life.

Sophie Allen [00:59:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Did you ever feel uncomfortable with how non Mormons were talked about and how quotes sinners were talked about or not?

Sophie Allen [00:59:30] I don't know that I internalized any of that because it made so much sense that we should be living our life a certain way. And I guess there was that part of. Well, I didn't know better, so I didn't come with that guilt. I knew that I wanted my children to live differently than I did. Yeah. But I don't know that there was much of that. The way that they talked about it. Hearing we're the one true church didn't offend me because I had never belonged to another church before. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] How about appearance culture? Some say Utah or Mormons have a very strong appearance culture. Was that what you experienced? And if so, was that

Sophie Allen [01:00:18] hard? That was challenging for me. I grew up in the Northwest, very, you know, jeans and T shirt and you just put your hair up and, you know, you did makeup for special occasions. But living in Utah, that was not the case.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:33] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:00:35] we didn't have a lot of money. You know, we were poor college students. And so. So, yeah, I did experience that. More about my children looking a certain way, my children having to go to church, my son's wearing white shirt and tie, or my daughter's looking adorable and things like that. I probably projected that pressure onto my children. Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:00:59] makes sense.

Sophie Allen [01:01:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Okay. But over. Oh, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:03] Oh, I was gonna ask, you know, did you ever feel a sense of next level feeling observed, assessed,

John Dehlin [01:01:16] or inadequate?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:18] Yeah, like all of that. I think when you have it in your neighborhood or when you. It's a very different dynamic than you go on Sunday and then you spread out right outside Utah and you kind of have space to do your own thing versus you live next door to and you live your whole neighborhood and you're heading out to go to the grocery store, your kids are playing at play dates. Or did you experience that? And if so,

Sophie Allen [01:01:47] I did. But again, I lived such an independent life, I probably didn't internalize it as much as other people would.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:56] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:01:57] yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:58] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Okay. So anything worth mentioning about your traditional Mormon lives before the cracks started to show up for you? Did you overall love being a Mormon, A faithful, devout Mormon?

Sophie Allen [01:02:14] I did. And it really solidified my life within my community too. I took all advantages of it. You know, we had doctors and insurance companies and dentists and everything like that. You know, that trope of everyone knows you're Mormon even if they're not saying that to you. And so within our community. Yeah, was great. Looking back now, I see things a little bit differently. The pressures that were put on my husband and I and our family and things like that, I look on it a little, but at the time it was great.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:59] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:03:00] it was great.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] All right. So. Yeah. When did the cracks start emerging for you? If we want to go there?

Sophie Allen [01:03:09] Yeah. I will mention that in our ward in Astoria, I was in the same ward as my in laws. I was in the same ward as my mother and father in law and my husband's uncle and his wife and children and also my sister in law and then her husband. So we were one of those families that

Margi Dehlin [01:03:33] we

Sophie Allen [01:03:33] were all there's so

Margi Dehlin [01:03:35] interesting.

Sophie Allen [01:03:36] Yeah. So there was part of that as well as part of that dynamic.

John Dehlin [01:03:42] So lots of extended, faithful Mormon family around you.

Sophie Allen [01:03:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:47] And in the ward, same ward, is it a branch or ward?

Sophie Allen [01:03:50] Ward. It's

Margi Dehlin [01:03:50] a

Sophie Allen [01:03:51] ward. I moved into his ward.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:53] Okay, got it.

Sophie Allen [01:03:54] Astoria ward. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] Because oftentimes Mormon families end up as adults clustering around their siblings and parents.

Sophie Allen [01:04:01] Interesting. Very idyllic. Very. My kids got to grow up with grandparents around and we actually shared the same mountainside. Like we all live kind of close together. So my kids would be able to run over to grandma and grandpa's house and aunts and uncles. I have a very talented sister in law that would help my kids sew clothes and manners camp and just. Yeah. Just really idyllic.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] And that's idyllic. Unless somebody starts to go off plan.

Sophie Allen [01:04:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] And then that makes it way more complex, right?

Sophie Allen [01:04:37] Yes, yes, yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:39] But you lived what I'm hearing though, you lived a time where it was golden, where it was something that was okay.

Sophie Allen [01:04:47] It's

Margi Dehlin [01:04:47] important. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:04:48] yeah, yeah. Lots of memories, lots of stories along the way that I didn't acquire when I was growing up, you know, making fun of grandpa cause grandpa was late to pick up one of our kids, you know, or I didn't have any of those family stories or traditions. They had a lot of family traditions and things like that. So it was great. They're very much part of my story.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:12] Yes. As

Sophie Allen [01:05:13] well. Yeah, yeah. And learning how to be a mom through, you know, watching my mother in law who's brilliant and capable and all these things. And she never put pressure on her, on me, but I put pressure on me from seeing her example. So that was probably more than my neighborhood moms and things like that. That's probably where I put it.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:36] I'm glad you brought that up actually. Do you feel like you looked at her as a mentor, as someone who inspired you? Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:05:47] yeah, for sure. She had talents and capabilities that just I wasn't going to achieve. But I always value it still to this day. Her thoughts and perspectives and wisdom on things. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:02] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:06:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:03] Okay, wait, I want to explore that for a minute. Is that okay?

Sophie Allen [01:06:06] Yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:07] Okay. So when you're talking about her as like a mentor or an inspiration, was there a time when you experienced it as just that or was it always held with what you just brought up? Which is a little twinge of I don't have that, but I won't,

Sophie Allen [01:06:30] I

Margi Dehlin [01:06:30] won't be able to do. I'm not that right. Was it always that way or was there a time like were you always aware of that's a pinnacle. I love that. And I don't have that.

Sophie Allen [01:06:45] Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:06:45] it was always that.

Sophie Allen [01:06:47] I would say that's always been in the background. That is my own. It's not something that she has projected onto me, but it is definitely my internal conflict

Margi Dehlin [01:07:03] for sure.

Sophie Allen [01:07:03] Yeah, yeah. Not just my mother in law, but my sister in laws as well. I mean they can, can. They can sew, they can do all the homemaking things that I never learned how to do and things like that. They can take those in and, and very educated, scholarly educated. Yeah, all, all the things that I admire in a woman who I hope that I gave a life to, my daughters that would grow up and be able to live like that. Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:07:35] I see.

Sophie Allen [01:07:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] So sometimes when someone is either a convert or raised devout, but then fall away, but then come back, they're some of the most intensely orthodox Mormons I've ever met. Sometimes the least likely to ever allow themselves to have doubts or to leave because they're so high strung from the life that, you know, when the wheels came off the wagon and they weren't living as they should in their minds, it doesn't sound like that was you. It doesn't sound like you were hyper orthodox, intense, almost over the top type Mormon wife and mom. I'm not saying you were committed, but do you know the type I'm talking about?

Sophie Allen [01:08:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] The ones who would just never even allow themselves to doubt at all.

Sophie Allen [01:08:33] Yes. I would agree with you that I. There were some things that I really strongly tried to do, but I wasn't that intense about it. I guess I didn't fear some of those things that maybe some of those people, you know, they live in fear of it all crumbling and things like that.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] Or deep shame.

Sophie Allen [01:08:55] Or deep shame, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:56] Sounds like you didn't have deep shame.

Sophie Allen [01:08:58] No, I guess I should have, but

John Dehlin [01:09:01] no, I did not. You dodged a bullet.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:03] I do think it's interesting because in your development of a self, you had some time to do that outside of a Mormon context, which I'm kind of feeling in this scenario is buffering, you know, a little bit to some of that. You know, what you're more susceptible to if your identity is merged and been created

Sophie Allen [01:09:28] by

Margi Dehlin [01:09:29] the. So that's super interesting. So, okay to follow up. And this is just a. I'm interested in the woman role and kind of what we're told is valuable within Mormonism. So did you feel shame about the ways you weren't like your mother in law or your sisters in law or were you just noticing? Nope, I'm not that or nope, I don't really have an interest in that. Like, I'm curious how you're experiencing it at this point.

Early Doubts and LGBTQ Issues at Church

Sophie Allen [01:10:02] Yes, I did hold shame for what I didn't know in regards to being a mother and a homemaker.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:09] Okay, so you

Sophie Allen [01:10:09] did

Margi Dehlin [01:10:10] feel a sense of failing?

Sophie Allen [01:10:12] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:12] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:10:13] Yeah. Not as far as religion goes, but culturally, yes, because I would go to church with these women that were just so capable of doing so many things and I was not. I was just trying to hold it together and raise my kids the best that I could. So yes, I did experience that kind of shame.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:34] Yeah, I appreciate you sharing it, making that distinction. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:39] And by 2010, which is when the, I think according to the outline, the first kind of crack emerges, would you say you were pretty happy in your marriage and said, as I a Mormon housewife?

Sophie Allen [01:10:51] Yeah, I would. There were no cracks allowing for self doubt. There was no need for doubt because everything was working so well.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] Okay, so you weren't looking to doubt or.

Sophie Allen [01:11:05] No, everything was working great.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Okay, so what happened?

Sophie Allen [01:11:11] I was young women's president and I started interacting with youth that trusted me. Probably felt that I didn't judge them. Probably. They didn't really overtly know my story, but they knew I was different and a convert, you know, and so they would confide in me, and I had some youth confide in me that they thought they were gay.

Sophie Allen [01:11:42] I had some experiences where parents would tell me that it's uncomfortable for them to go to either young men's or young women's because physically their bodies didn't fit into those categories. And that was kind of the first time I was introduced to the science of gender through a religious context.

Sophie Allen [01:12:08] And having young people tell me such deep things and not feeling comfortable to talk to their parents about it was kind of the first time that I started to feel that crack that like, oh, maybe not all the answers are in the gospel like I thought they were.

Sophie Allen [01:12:31] And then having nephews and nieces and young people in my life, people that I would give anything for, that I love. Like you would envision a heavenly father loving just that intense love coming to me and telling me that they're gay.

Sophie Allen [01:12:55] And I'm grateful that I had read some of the things that I had read so that I knew how to answer these youth and these children that came to me and just loving them and embracing them and telling them, thank you for trusting me enough to come to me. And talk to me about it. And at first I didn't really.

Sophie Allen [01:13:22] There wasn't that conflict there. But as I stepped away from these youth. And then I started going to church and hearing things over the pulpit, imagining that youth sitting in the same pews or congregation as me and hearing that message that just came across the pulpit, thinking, oh, that couldn't have felt good.

Sophie Allen [01:13:44] Or. And being a young woman's president, I'm asked and tasked with teaching lessons that are controversial. And then I would read the lesson, and then I would dread going to church and having to teach some of these things. And just making it just made me feel sick.

Sophie Allen [01:14:02] And. And so I was looking first. What did Jesus say about gay or transgender people? Oddly enough, not much. And so I went to lds.org and BYU, and that was where I started doing research, and that was where I started hearing and learning and experiencing a divide with what was being taught at church and what I felt was right in my heart.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] So this would have been after Prop 8. Prop 8 would have been 2008. So 2010 would have been a couple years after Prop 8, but five years before the November 2015 policy and the legalization of same sex marriage. So at the time, there would have been, like the Mormon and gays website, and the church was actually becoming more affirming, changing a lot of its stances, but still falling short of full love and acceptance. But also, this is when the LGBT suicide epidemic was on the rise. And so the church was starting to get called out for LGBT youth, Mormon youth taking their lives and that sort of thing. So. So I'm just trying to set some context for when you would have been learning and reading about stuff.

Sophie Allen [01:15:25] So, oddly enough, I would say that this was the first time that I had ever had to research the church as researching the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:34] Ah. Yep.

Sophie Allen [01:15:36] I was so busy with young children during all the Prop 8, and all that stuff I never heard about never made its way into my life. I didn't know anything about it. I mean, I had heard, like, Prop 8 in some long, you know, that was. I didn't realize how much the church was involved in it.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:15:53] I had no idea

John Dehlin [01:15:54] how

Sophie Allen [01:15:55] much they were involved in it. Yeah. It was the first time I had started to investigate what does the church officially say about something? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:04] Yeah. Because you kind of had a social and an emotional conversion more than anything. More than an intellectual.

Sophie Allen [01:16:11] And the doctrine, like everything I was taught at church confirmed it. There was no. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] So did that start a deterioration of your faith the more you studied? And if so how did that go?

Sophie Allen [01:16:24] Well, I was part of it by then. The church was everyone's welcome. Everyone's welcome. It doesn't matter what you are. Everyone's welcome. And so that's my forethinking about these gay and transgender children is like, everyone's welcome. Jesus loves everyone. But then I started to see an example of talking out of both sides of your face, you know, like, yes, everyone's welcome. But then I started to see the but to it that I had never noticed before. So researching that. But I stayed in the lane of only church approved, you know, studies. And I came across. I couldn't find out what Jesus said. I couldn't fully find what the church said. But I did come across a talk, an interview, I think it was 2006 interview that was with, at the time, Elder Oaks

John Dehlin [01:17:25] with Wickham.

Sophie Allen [01:17:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:27] Was that the one where he said, don't let your gay children stay with you in your house. That sort of thing. If there's a gay couple who your adult children,

Sophie Allen [01:17:37] don't

John Dehlin [01:17:38] let them stay in your house. Was that the title?

Sophie Allen [01:17:40] Yes, that is the time I, I had it printed out with me, but in my travels, I didn't bring it with me. And I pulled it up and reread it last night.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:47] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:17:48] And it is so that. So during when I'm doing this research, I. My husband knows that I'm struggling with some of the gay rhetoric at church, you know, some of the teachings and, you know, it's just kind of uncomfortable and. And my husband is aware of the children that have come to me, handles it beautifully and just we're on the same page at that point. I'm able to talk to him about the things that I'm. Things I'm hearing that I'm uncomfortable with or whatever. But I'm starting to do uncomfortable research. And so I'm laying in bed on my phone reading this interview. He's asleep. Every. Everyone's in bed, everything's dark. And I sometimes refer it to like ex Mormon porn. You know, like, I'm secretly reading these things. You know, I read Mormonism. Shadow or Reality?

John Dehlin [01:18:46] That's the Sandra Tanner book.

Sophie Allen [01:18:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:18:48] What? Because Sandra is not in that same place around LGBT stuff.

Sophie Allen [01:18:54] Found her Shadow versus Reality through byu, BYU website or whatever. I found that. And you can download that. That book,

John Dehlin [01:19:06] a

Sophie Allen [01:19:06] PDF of that

John Dehlin [01:19:07] book. And so I

Sophie Allen [01:19:08] downloaded on my phone. So I'm reading. It's a giant book that's

John Dehlin [01:19:11] like a nuclear bomb to your testimony. I mean, that's.

Sophie Allen [01:19:15] And I put it Away. But

John Dehlin [01:19:16] that's like the CS letter on steroids.

Sophie Allen [01:19:19] And I had never heard anything like this before. But before I get to that point. But just an example is, you know, I'm in the dark. I'm reading things that maybe I shouldn't be reading. But it's elder oak. I can read what Elder Oaks has to say. Right.

Sophie Allen [01:19:36] And reading those words just. I started breathing. I couldn't believe the words that I read. They were so reading them from a context that would exclude people that I love was devastating to me. I started my blood, you know, I got hot and I started breathing heavy and I started getting physically dizzy. So I sat up in bed and I had to prop myself up against the wall. And I guess I was having a panic attack. Like that was. I couldn't believe the words that were coming out of someone who was going to be our next prophet. And just I went to the bathroom. I got physically sick. It literally was like the ground was taken out from underneath me.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:29] Yeah. You were having a visceral experience.

Sophie Allen [01:20:32] My body knew what was happening to me before my brain could even put it all together,

Margi Dehlin [01:20:37] so. Interesting. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:20:38] yeah, yeah. It was devastating to read those words,

Margi Dehlin [01:20:43] to

Sophie Allen [01:20:43] hear a grown man, let alone a mouthpiece for God, say those things. I don't care what your upbringing is. It was devastating. It was gross. And I experienced that had essentially my life crumble. Pulled myself together and went back to bed and never really explained to my husband what had happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:11] Wow.

Sophie Allen [01:21:11] So that's. That's kind of where my husband and I story, you know, kind of becomes an example of what happens when someone in a marriage loses their faith.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:23] Yeah. This is a moment of shift. Is that what

Sophie Allen [01:21:27] you're saying? Yes. Yes.

Encountering Difficult Church Rhetoric on Homosexuality

John Dehlin [01:21:29] And just because this talk was so instrumental and because Oaks is the prophet now, I'm going to just read a couple. So I just asked for a summary. And so according to the summary, he denies the gay identity and says that homosexuality is a noun. It's not a noun that describes a condition. It's like an affliction. Same sex attraction is kind of the framing. It's more of a disease than an identity. So that's the first thing. Does that sound right?

Sophie Allen [01:22:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] And then he likens it to being like an urge to steal. He likens being gay to an urge to steal or having a short temper or liking alcohol.

Sophie Allen [01:22:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] Is that right?

Sophie Allen [01:22:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] And that you wouldn't want to legalize a thief, you know, stealing just because someone had the urge to steal.

Sophie Allen [01:22:27] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:27] Does that sound right?

Sophie Allen [01:22:28] Condone it away yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] And then he says, you're not born that way. That, you know, I guess it's the old rhetoric of God would never do that. Loving heavenly father would never do that to someone. Wickman calls it an affliction. So that's not nice. Yeah. And then there's the shutting out the partner. Parents should tell their gay son not to bring their partner home.

Sophie Allen [01:22:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] And especially don't bring them into the house. Like, this is stuff the church to this day has not apologized for. And Oakes is now the prophet, which is kind of timely. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:23:08] yeah, yeah. The rhetoric in that interview is love them, which is great. That's a great response. Love them, tell them you love them. That's great. But please don't choose your lifestyle. Please don't give into it. Just like someone who has a temper. Don't give into it if you have to live a life of celibacy. And don't ever bring it into our home around our other children. There's that in there as well,

Margi Dehlin [01:23:37] like contagion a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] And he describes the trap of parents starting to defend their children. Basically, don't fall into that trap of advocating for your children, that lifelong celibacy. Think of it as a disability where you may have to never get married and be celibate your whole life, but that's how it is. If you're a quadriplegic, that sort of.

Sophie Allen [01:24:05] And literally giving those examples.

John Dehlin [01:24:08] Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:24:09] yeah.

Sophie Allen [01:24:09] Which sounds so

Margi Dehlin [01:24:11] safe. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:24:12] yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] And then calling same sex marriage abominable and that God. God would never allow that to happen. So, I mean, sorry, that. Does that sound like the types of things?

Sophie Allen [01:24:24] Yeah. I appreciate you saying that because it is. It sounds so horrible and it was so horrible. And it breaks my heart to even, you know, to even consider looking at my children and my children's happiness and way of life ever even being talked that way.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:48] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [01:24:49] It just.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:50] Right.

Sophie Allen [01:24:51] It went against everything that I felt was right to my core.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] And is this like in 2010 or is this a few years after? Is this over several years?

Sophie Allen [01:25:02] This was what, like maybe three years ago that I read that?

John Dehlin [01:25:07] 20, 23.

Sophie Allen [01:25:08] Yeah, yeah. Maybe two and a half years ago.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] Okay, so there was a big. A long time between the 2010 period when a youth first comes out to you as gay, and three years ago, 20, 23,

Sophie Allen [01:25:24] when I read that.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Okay, so that Oaks thing, you don't confront until literally three years ago.

Sophie Allen [01:25:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:25:29] Yeah. Three or four years ago.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:31] And that's when you have the panic attack. Is that right? Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:25:36] Yeah. Yeah. For Some context for my Mormon story. I was going through a lot at that time as well. I had a sister that had just passed away with cancer. Health problems within my family. I had a mental health crisis of my own. Life was really, really, really rough. The last thing I wanted was a challenge to my religion. That was the last thing I needed.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] Okay, so you weren't looking for a way to get out.

Sophie Allen [01:26:09] No.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] And this was a slow burn. This was. Again, this was

Margi Dehlin [01:26:13] over time.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] This is a 13 year burn for you.

Sophie Allen [01:26:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] Okay, so for those 13 years, you were still in it to win it, serving all the callings, raising your kids in the church, relatively happy in your life and in your marriage and all that. Okay, so the wheels started coming off the wagon three years ago.

Sophie Allen [01:26:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:26:32] They came off.

John Dehlin [01:26:33] Oh, so you read that talk three years ago, by the way, that talk was given a long time ago.

Sophie Allen [01:26:40] It was kept from me. It was brand new to me.

John Dehlin [01:26:43] Yeah, the memory hole is real. We talk a lot about the bubble being real. The memory hole is also real. I'm trying to see when that interview was given, but it was

Sophie Allen [01:26:54] five or six, I think. I think 05 or 06.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Okay. Yeah. That's like the year Mormon story started. Okay, so you discovered it 23 years. Well, 18 years after it had been written. Okay, so three years ago you read that article. You're reading Sandra Tanner's

Sophie Allen [01:27:15] Shadow versus Morality.

John Dehlin [01:27:16] Mormonism, Shadow reality.

Sophie Allen [01:27:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] So.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:19] And you're experiencing at the same time, it sounds like a lot of tumult.

Sophie Allen [01:27:24] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:25] Within your. Within your family, your relationships, your own mental health.

Sophie Allen [01:27:31] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:32] Already.

Sophie Allen [01:27:32] Yes. Yeah. Life was rough.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:27:36] Very, very rough.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] So you. So, yeah, you're. So now you're thinking, how do I. How do I talk to my husband about the fact that my testimony's in free fall?

Sophie Allen [01:27:45] I was probably in shock for a good long time. It takes time for your brain and your body and your life to catch up to what was happening. So I was just kind of in neutral for a while, and my intuitive husband could tell that I was struggling with something, but I didn't have words. Again, I'm going through this entirely alone. I know that there is, I don't know, there's the word ex Mormon community or exmo or any of this stuff is not in my world at all. I knew nothing about podcasts that I was listening because I was a youth teacher. I was listening to that one Sunday school podcast, you know, every week about. Come Follow me. That's the podcast I was listening to. And

John Dehlin [01:28:39] with, like John by The way.

Sophie Allen [01:28:40] Yeah, yep, all of it. And I was a good teacher as well. I'd like to toot my own horn, but I was going through something that I didn't know anybody else was going through. It was completely on my own. I was completely isolated. And then I reached out to one friend and she had moved to the east coast. And I said, I'm really struggling with the church. And she sent me a link to LDS discussions. And that was. I clicked on it, I listened to part of it and that was the first time that I started hearing words that somewhat described what I was going. I was like, I read. This is interesting. I didn't know other people thought like I did. So

Margi Dehlin [01:29:27] can

John Dehlin [01:29:27] I just Note, like, it's 2023, that's 18 years into Mormon stories. That's eight years after my public excommunication. That's after so many, you know, Natasha and Sam Young and Jeremy Reynolds and Bill. Real. So many excommunications. Like, that's post Covid.

Sophie Allen [01:29:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] And you had gone all that time and never known that the Mormon Internet or the ex Mormon Internet even existed. That's just a mind blowing testament to the Mormon bubble and the way the church. I don't know, I don't want to say it's necessarily the church controlling information, but the environment that so many educated Mormons in the United States get raised in, even in 2026.

Sophie Allen [01:30:22] Yeah, it's

John Dehlin [01:30:23] educated, committed Mormons are completely oblivious to any of this conversation. Is that

Sophie Allen [01:30:27] right? Yeah, yeah, completely. It's the bubble. It's the bubble of I didn't know any of that going on because I was raising toddlers. Every second of my day was committed to the church in some way, shape or form. I was serving, I was busy. And if I ever had a free moment, you better believe I was using it to go to the temple. You know, there was no time for anything else to find its way to me.

John Dehlin [01:30:55] And I don't want this to derail us. But like, have you learned since that there were people that you had known who had left the church, but they didn't tell you?

Sophie Allen [01:31:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] So what's it like? And we can get to the story later, but like, what's that about? Like, people that you loved and knew had left the church, but somehow you didn't know. Do you know why?

Sophie Allen [01:31:16] There's been some funny moments where because of how steeped I was and how prominent our family was, I will see them later on and it will come out something I'll be like, I don't go to church anymore and the look on their faces of you've got really you.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:38] In other words, they would have lost their faith earlier,

Sophie Allen [01:31:40] but

John Dehlin [01:31:40] they would have never told you.

Sophie Allen [01:31:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:31:43] Because why? You were just someone you would want

Sophie Allen [01:31:47] unreachable. Why even bother talking to me about those things? Move away or, you know, don't follow each other on social media. Yeah. Complete different life. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] So you were so committed to the church that anyone who had left the church while you were in that zone would have never felt comfortable ever telling you.

Sophie Allen [01:32:07] They probably felt comfortable telling me, but it didn't connect.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] You

Sophie Allen [01:32:12] know what that meant? You know, like, I like, good for you. You know? Yeah.

Finding LDS Discussions and Deepening Research

John Dehlin [01:32:18] Okay. So elders Discussions is one of the things I'm most proud of. Basically, my friend Mike, who's a convert, by the way,

Sophie Allen [01:32:28] I know,

John Dehlin [01:32:28] who converted and married a faithful Mormon woman. And then this is funny, I just made this connection after he converts to the church, marries a Mormon woman and they have kids together, starts learning all this stuff about the church that he had never been taught as an investigator, and he loses his faith. To this day, 2026, his wife is still a believer and may not even know. He did Mormon LDS discussions, by the way.

Sophie Allen [01:32:56] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:32:56] But anyway, he puts Together this website, LDSDiscussions.com issues all these essays or really deep dives into Mormon Church history and truth claims. I discover Mike and I'm like. And his name's not really Mike. Mike, come on, let's do episodes on Mormon Stories. So we end up doing like 60 episodes, 63 hour episodes of Mormon Stories where we start from, like, treasure digging and we just do deep dives into all the Mormon Church's truth claims. So that's what LDS Discussions is. You can find it as its own podcast. It's got a playlist on YouTube, you know, Spotify, wherever Apple. You can find it, it download it. It's one of the things I'm most proud of. How would that have not seemed horrible or scary or offensive or terrifying when you're in 2023, your super believing mindset.

Sophie Allen [01:33:49] Yes, again, it came in slowly. My algorithm didn't know anything about exmos. Nothing. I didn't come across you until two years ago. Maybe

Margi Dehlin [01:34:06] she had a gentle algorithm.

Sophie Allen [01:34:09] I did. I had a very gentle. Well,

Margi Dehlin [01:34:14] gentleish. I

John Dehlin [01:34:15] don't know. It could have been other.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:16] Was it gentle adjacent? It

John Dehlin [01:34:18] could have been other creators.

Sophie Allen [01:34:19] Yes. There

John Dehlin [01:34:20] are people worse than me, you know,

Sophie Allen [01:34:22] and I did come across those creators that were saying things that resonated with me.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:28] I

Sophie Allen [01:34:28] was like, oh, what's that? What's a tbm? You know? Oh, a true believing Mormon or just able to put into words thoughts.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] What are porn shoulders? What are porn shoulders?

Margi Dehlin [01:34:42] Isn't it interesting to think about how having actual language for things births realities?

Sophie Allen [01:34:51] Yes. That

Margi Dehlin [01:34:52] without the language, it's like the thing doesn't exist, but the minute you hear it, it's born in you as a. Yeah. That's powerful.

Sophie Allen [01:35:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:01] Yeah. It's language and it's role models.

Sophie Allen [01:35:05] Yes. It's stories and examples that help me not feel so. I don't want to use the word crazy, but not so alone. Not so irrational. Because being in the church, thinking outside of the church, makes you feel irrational. Makes you.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:29] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [01:35:29] yeah. It just messes with your brain. So to hear people confidently and intelligently sharing their experiences that I related to was a lifesaver. A lifesaver for sure.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] So you start watching LDS discussions.

Sophie Allen [01:35:44] I didn't find LDS discussions until after I had joined a support group with LDS discussions and someone brought up. Or with Latter Day Struggles. Someone brought up LDS discussions.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Okay, tell us what Latter Day Struggles is.

Sophie Allen [01:35:59] It's got Valerie Hammaker.

John Dehlin [01:36:02] Was that before her excommunication or after?

Sophie Allen [01:36:04] It was before. It was way early on. I listened to her early faithful, believing a

John Dehlin [01:36:10] lot of our viewers and listeners won't know who she is or was. And that's an interesting story.

Sophie Allen [01:36:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] So at the time you meet Valerie, what's she.

Sophie Allen [01:36:17] I joined one of her support groups

John Dehlin [01:36:19] called Latter Day Struggles.

Sophie Allen [01:36:23] I don't remember what it's called.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:36:25] I don't remember what it was.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] But she's like a life coach. Therapist.

Sophie Allen [01:36:28] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For people who are in and out and all around the church. It's a support group and I listened to her for a long time before I joined one of them.

John Dehlin [01:36:39] So she had support groups. So she had a podcast that she'd listen to. And then eventually you joined some support groups.

Sophie Allen [01:36:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] Okay, and what was that like?

Sophie Allen [01:36:49] It was an experience. It was a learning experience. But I met a wonderful group of people that I am still friends with today. We use the app Polo. App.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] Marco. Polo.

Sophie Allen [01:37:01] Marco Polo. And it gave us space to share our stories and communicate and learn and talk about everyday things that we were going through.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:16] That's amazing.

Sophie Allen [01:37:17] It was a lifesaver. Yes. We call each other groupies. I love my groupies.

John Dehlin [01:37:24] And this is something that's been going on a long time, whether it was Mormon stories or Stale the S or Mormon Matters or Thoughtful Faith early on with Gina Colvin or with Dan Witherspoon and then later Bill Real tried to create communities for liberal progressive Mormons. And then Julie Hanks. You know, there have been lots of waves or iterations. Right now there's faith Matters and the whole Restore movement. But over the past 20, 30 years, there have been these waves of liberal Mormon therapists or coaches or influencers who try and create safe spaces for Mormons questioning. And then they create community like Waters of Mormon or Thoughtful Faith or whatever to allow people to talk. And what tends to happen in these groups? I have my perception of how it tends to go. You start out not feeling alone, not feeling, quote, crazy. But as you're learning and processing and sharing, what happens?

Sophie Allen [01:38:29] Well, even before you get to that learning and processing and joining a group or whatever, it must be, people don't know about them. I didn't know about them. This is a whole new universe. Might as well be a whole new planet I've stepped onto. So joining these groups, I didn't know what happened to them. So they're facilitated by someone who gives you a prompt or a thought or something to learn, and then you talk about them. At least that's how it was in our group. And then

John Dehlin [01:39:05] what are some topics? Examples?

Sophie Allen [01:39:09] First it was really about diving into what attracted you to the church. Why do you think that believing in the church, what was that like for you? You know, learning more about yourself first was probably where ours came from. And then we learned a lot in our group through unhealthy things and things that actually didn't go well in our group. And then

John Dehlin [01:39:41] like people getting angry or people misbehaving.

Sophie Allen [01:39:44] Yeah, both. Learning how to come together as a virtual community with so many different personalities. I think that our group would have been better had it been smaller. And because there were so many levels and degrees of people coming into our group, it was intense and uncomfortable for some people where other people were hurt and wanted to talk about separate things. So it was a large group that we as friends came together and filtered through and created a community that we needed.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Yeah, because there's always. It's really hard to maintain tone

Sophie Allen [01:40:25] in

John Dehlin [01:40:26] those groups

Sophie Allen [01:40:27] because

John Dehlin [01:40:27] there's going to be the newbies that are faithful and just curious or in shock, but aren't ready for the heavy stuff. And then there's the super furious, angry people who are going to talk about child abuse and polyandry and give their temple names and talk about the temple ceremony in depth. And that's a real shock to the group. And then there's gonna be people Experimenting with drugs and alcohol and even sexual exploration or tattoos and whatever. And that can be really shocking when you have a large group with people all along the faith and. Or experience spectrums.

Sophie Allen [01:41:16] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:17] Right.

Sophie Allen [01:41:18] That's exactly right. That's exactly

Margi Dehlin [01:41:20] right. That's so interesting because I think there's a way of thinking of just like, I'm ex Mormon. And then it's like, oh, well, then. And I understand that because there is a commonality, a huge X factor of commonality. There are so many variations of that. It's not like a recipe for like, we're automatic friends. What could possibly go wrong? We. You know what I mean? Yes. Within that. And then also I was thinking of. It's such a vulnerable time, too, that it's sort of like all the wounded.

Sophie Allen [01:41:54] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:54] Meeting together and wanting, healing, but you're all wounded. And then you put in there, like, depending where your wounds are, how deep they are. Then it's also like just the grief people are processing. Then it's just sort of like what stage they're in, how it's coming up today. It's just. That is a tall order for. And then there

John Dehlin [01:42:16] could be predators that are looking for vulnerable people that can then just blow up relationships and marriages and families. You know, as well, like, it's like. It really is like the jungle. It's the jungle.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:30] Wild, wild west.

John Dehlin [01:42:31] It's the wild, wild West. Yeah.

Sophie Allen [01:42:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:34] I don't mean to be injecting all this in your story.

Sophie Allen [01:42:36] No. Completely accurate, all of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:38] But what I hear is you were able within that to find some people where you had commonality, where common values or experience or what you were wanting. And you were able to find that and kind of shift away and. Is that your Polo?

Sophie Allen [01:42:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:57] You all start your own little mini group.

Sophie Allen [01:42:59] Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] You kind of break away.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:01] So you were able to find that using this too?

Sophie Allen [01:43:06] Yeah. I would say that the group, the mediator, the monitor, almost tried to take up all the time so that there wasn't that conflict. And that was frustrating to those of us that needed to talk.

John Dehlin [01:43:20] Was this Valerie or just some assigned.

Sophie Allen [01:43:23] It was Valerie. And I don't fault her by any means. I am so grateful for the work that she does do. I think she's absolutely amazing. I'm just talking about what our group needed. And so there wasn't enough time for processing for a lot of us. And so we would go over to the Polo and we would process and we created a community that is pretty darn awesome.

John Dehlin [01:43:49] How many

Margi Dehlin [01:43:49] people?

John Dehlin [01:43:51] Ten, twenty? Hundred?

Sophie Allen [01:43:53] I Think there were twenty in the group. And now I would say there's a core eight,

Margi Dehlin [01:44:01] eight

Sophie Allen [01:44:01] or ten of us.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] A group. Oh, some men,

Sophie Allen [01:44:04] yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] And groups can't be too big, but they gotta be big enough to have some diversity, but not too big. So that's. And there

Sophie Allen [01:44:11] were people harmed in our group group too, you know, but that is their process. But it's. I feel for them going from a LDS community where they're feeling harm and then joining a group. I don't knock these groups. I really recommend joining and find. Taking the effort to find your community.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:33] Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] For

Sophie Allen [01:44:34] sure.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] I know the Marriage on a Tightrope community has a ton of these Marco Polo groups, both official ones that are part of the Marriage on a Tightrope group. And then a bunch of break off schism groups for faithful wives, group for faithful husbands, group for wives who have left, groups for husbands who have left, and then just friend groups that break off. Okay, so now let's go back to your husband for a second. Because if your husband's just kind of going along his merry way as a faithful Mormon dad and husband, and now all of a sudden you're building connections and intimacy and with all these struggling Mormons, he may not want to join you on that.

John Dehlin [01:45:16] He may not feel comfortable. He may wonder where you are, why you're always on the Internet. And sometimes I've seen that can really be a point of tension or contention or even division between a couple, because even while you're still, maybe still in the church at this point, you're still deconstructing and processing and communicating in very intimate ways with men and women. What was that like for your marriage? If you want to share,

Sophie Allen [01:45:43] leading up to that was its own experience. Before I did join a group leading up to that, I. So okay, I read that letter with Elder Oaks and. And I experienced that so isolating and so alone. And I want to say it was like the next few days my temple recommend expired and my husband being in the first bishopric, first counselor in the bishopric, he's able to give me my interview. And so we were driving somewhere, just him and I, to a volleyball game or something like that. And he brought it up and he was like, do you just want to do your interview now?

John Dehlin [01:46:34] Is that how it works?

Sophie Allen [01:46:37] And I said, I have something I want to tell you. And because I knew that my temple recommend was going to expire, I really was wrestling with a lot of things. And in my mind I had decided I was not going to renew because I didn't Want to participate in a ceremony or go somewhere that would exclude people I love. It didn't sit right with me. I'm not interested in entering a building that wouldn't allow everyone I love to enter with me.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:16] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [01:47:17] Just the way they are.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:19] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [01:47:19] And so that was. That was where your internal moral compass. I started relying on that. So having my husband ask me if I wanted to do my temple recommend interview, I said, I have something to tell you. I'm not gonna renew.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] So you weren't thinking, like, for never Mormons, there's a specific set of questions that you have to answer, like, do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ? Do you have a testimony of the restoration? Do you live the law of chastity? Do you pay your tithing? Those are the questions. And oftentimes someone gets stuck on one of those questions where they can't answer in the way it needs to be answered. It sounds like you were just like, if the temple won't let LGBT people in, I don't even want to go in. So it was none of the specific questions necessarily.

Sophie Allen [01:48:10] No. I don't even think I thought about the questions. It just.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:15] It

Sophie Allen [01:48:15] was such

Margi Dehlin [01:48:16] exclusionary. You described. You had, like, an internal shift after that. Yeah. Where it was, like a personal boundary that arise.

Sophie Allen [01:48:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:26] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:48:26] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:29] How did he respond?

Sophie Allen [01:48:30] He was quiet. And, of course, I can't tell his story, but

John Dehlin [01:48:37] was he blindsided?

Sophie Allen [01:48:38] I think a little bit by the intensity of it, for sure. Because everything had. He knew I was struggling with some things, but everything was okay. But he handled it very well. He handled it very well. And he said. And I'm trying to reassure him that everything's okay too. This is just where I'm at now. He said, would you like to meet with the bishop and talk with the bishop about some of these things? And we have a really great bishop at the time. Wonderful. And I said, okay, yeah, sure, I'll do that. But he had handled it really, really quite well. It was probably kind of jarring to him, but he handled it well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:26] So you talked to your bishop?

Sophie Allen [01:49:29] I did. My husband made me an appointment to meet with him, and he's a great guy, and he was very surprised. Very surprised. And he didn't pretend not to be. And he. He asked if he could just take some time to process it instead of just telling me what I should and shouldn't do.

Sophie Allen [01:49:58] And he asked me what some of the things were that were bothering me. And I opened up to him enough, and he said, I think here we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Is that okay? And I'm thinking in my mind, that's perfect.

Sophie Allen [01:50:14] You're answering this perfectly. And he was just loving and kind. And then I think, I imagine he just thought, well, what do I do now? But he just chose to be loving and kind and non judgmental and not tell me to read my scriptures more or counsel me that I was somehow wrong or anything like that. You

John Dehlin [01:50:37] didn't call you to repeat?

Sophie Allen [01:50:38] Nope. Nope.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:50:40] No.

John Dehlin [01:50:42] All right. He

Sophie Allen [01:50:43] handled it great.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] So happily ever after.

Sophie Allen [01:50:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:47] I'm teasing. So did you get your. Did you get approved to go to the Stake Presidency for your

Leaving Belief and Removing Garments

Sophie Allen [01:50:56] time? I had to move on. I took off my garments.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] Oh, wait, well, how did that come next?

Sophie Allen [01:51:04] Once I decided

John Dehlin [01:51:05] that. What?

Sophie Allen [01:51:06] That it wasn't for me to go to the temple. And one thing that helped me in that time because a lot of people kind of panic in this situation. And one thing, reminding myself that I can change my mind at any time. This was just my thought process right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:26] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [01:51:27] Removed that whole eternal panic. You know, am I making the wrong decision for all eternity? And that obsession of having to make the right choices, I told myself I am making the right choice for myself right now. And that brought a lot of comfort and peace to me at that time.

John Dehlin [01:51:50] So Margi started nodding as soon as you said you immediately took off your garments. And I think I have a sense for that. But before I want to know why Margi was nodding. What's the connection between deciding you don't want to go to the temple and take your garments off? Just make it explicit for those who won't.

Sophie Allen [01:52:05] Probably a protest. Probably an internal protest of, I am so hurt by what the temple means for me right at this moment. I almost wanted nothing to do with it.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] Oh, and it's in the temple. It's when you take out your endowments that you get your garments in the temple for the first time. So you associated garments with the temple?

Sophie Allen [01:52:28] With the temple.

John Dehlin [01:52:29] So it's just a protest of like, I'm having none of this.

Sophie Allen [01:52:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] Okay. That's usually viewed as a. Believe it or not, never. Mormons. When a Mormon spouse decides to take up their garments, that's a gargantuan red flag shock.

Sophie Allen [01:52:44] It is.

John Dehlin [01:52:45] You know. So how was that? Oh, Margi, did you want to jump in? I

Margi Dehlin [01:52:48] was going to ask, like, did it scare you? Did it feel. Did you feel emboldened? All of it. How did it. What did it feel like to. Actually, it's a visible Step. It's a visible form of protest.

Sophie Allen [01:53:03] Yeah, it was unnerving. It felt like the right thing to do for me. So I kept falling back on that. But along the way there was all these weird experiences of, well, now I gotta go buy underwear. And I don't even know, you know, I

John Dehlin [01:53:21] had worn em for 21 years by this point. Right,

Sophie Allen [01:53:24] right. I joined when I was 20 and here I was 20 years later removing my garments, which was a big deal.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:34] We can have a moment for the journey of underwear. I'm not sure it's stated enough. That's a whole

Sophie Allen [01:53:40] exploration. Still on that journey, my

Margi Dehlin [01:53:42] identity as well.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] All the never Mormons are like, what are they talking about? You just get underwear,

Margi Dehlin [01:53:52] but with underwear.

Sophie Allen [01:53:54] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:55] Mormon adults don't know how to do underwear because they. It's

Margi Dehlin [01:53:58] just a journey.

Sophie Allen [01:53:59] And it's. It is. But hearing people talk about things like this on a podcast was so reassuring to me, so fresh and so like, okay, I'm not the only one struggling with my underwear.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] So which podcast do you mean then?

Sophie Allen [01:54:18] I don't remember what went.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] No, no, no. I mean, like, are you saying Mormon stories by that point?

Sophie Allen [01:54:23] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:54:23] Okay, Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:54:24] I think so. By that

John Dehlin [01:54:24] point. At some point.

Sophie Allen [01:54:25] Yeah, yeah. I went from LDS discussions or no latter day struggles.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:54:34] To at last she said it was another one. And then.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] Which is still around.

Sophie Allen [01:54:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:42] So you're kind of going through the faithful progressive Mormon podcast as a slippery slope down to Mormon stories, basically.

Sophie Allen [01:54:50] Yep, yep, pretty much.

John Dehlin [01:54:53] So there. Are they. Are they feeders?

Sophie Allen [01:54:56] Feeders?

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Like, are those like. Well, the church ended up excommunicating Valerie and, you know, if they haven't excommunicated Julie Hanks, d' Azevedo Hanks, they want to. And they did me and they did Bill Real. It seems like many of the people that end up leading these progressive, faithful Mormon podcasts end up excommunicated. And the people who oftentimes these faithful progressive Mormon podcasts end up as slippery slopes to Mormon stories. And then for some out of the church, not everyone, but

Sophie Allen [01:55:35] yeah, it's kind of like your algorithm kind of knows almost instinctively what stage you're at. Almost. You know, because I would click on something, I would hear something and be like, oh, I want to know more about that. That's where I'm at right now. My first Mormon stories actually was the Hans one. Yes. That was

John Dehlin [01:55:58] the first

Sophie Allen [01:55:58] Mormon stories I ever listened to. Was that one. Because, wait, what is the second anointing? What are you talking about? And it was also an example of someone who had a lot of the same questions I had. So within that Mormon stories, I was expecting to hear what the church had to say. And when I listened to the audio of what the church had to say, that was not okay with me.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] Was it Tom Phillips, too? Tom Phillips and Hods Mattson. Because Tom Phillips was the first second anointed, the big one that I do.

Sophie Allen [01:56:31] And his wife.

John Dehlin [01:56:31] Okay,

Sophie Allen [01:56:32] yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] And. And okay,

Sophie Allen [01:56:35] yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:36] It

Sophie Allen [01:56:36] was first just Hans and his story, and then he brought in his wife for other episodes and stuff. And

John Dehlin [01:56:41] for those who don't know, Hans was a Swedish area authority for the church who ended up, after serving five years as an area authority, which is right next to a general authority, ended up losing his faith and finding Mormon stories and that sort of of thing.

Sophie Allen [01:56:56] Yeah. And through that, I was looking for what is the church saying? What are the church answers to these questions that Hans had? I was looking for that. And then that brings you just to more

John Dehlin [01:57:09] Joseph Smith's polygamy. And

Sophie Allen [01:57:12] when I started having my struggles, I just thought they were my struggles. I had no idea what I was gonna learn. This was all brand new to me.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] Why was the second anointing bothersome to you? I'm just curious.

Sophie Allen [01:57:28] I'd never heard of it.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] Okay. And that bothered

Sophie Allen [01:57:30] you? Wait a minute. The second. What is that? Yeah, it bothered me because I thought I had done everything that the church said I was supposed to do.

John Dehlin [01:57:42] So why is there some elite, super special, sacred, secret ordinance that you didn't know about that bothered

Sophie Allen [01:57:48] you?

John Dehlin [01:57:49] Okay.

Sophie Allen [01:57:50] Right. Yeah.

Sharing the Faith Transition with Her Husband

Margi Dehlin [01:57:53] So through this process, would you say you're sharing with your husband pretty much all along, or were you kind of editing and trying to. Kind of, yeah. Do you want to talk about that?

John Dehlin [01:58:06] Did he want to know?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:07] Yeah. That dynamic amidst a shift where you're now on a different page, exploring different things.

Sophie Allen [01:58:15] Yeah, that's. That's where the challenges begin. Up until this point, he's always shown that he was a safe person, level headed, you know, open and, and secure and. And loving. And he saw the pain that I was going through while I was still going to church with him and stuff like that. And he always told me, it's okay, you don't have to come to church. I can see the pain that you're in. You don't have to come to church with me. And so he's saying and doing all the right things, being really supportive, not panicking, not freaking out when I take my garments off, just being loving.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] Because for some spouses, that could be a deal breaker. It's like, oh, you don't want to temple recommend you take your garments off? We're getting a divorce.

Sophie Allen [01:59:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] Right.

Sophie Allen [01:59:09] Yeah. Yeah. And I know plenty of stories. I don't. I use humor a lot, and I don't ever mean to demean other people that are going through experiences that are just heartbreaking that fortunately I didn't have to go through. But at the same time, we're not talking about things. I'm not asking him about things that I'm learning because I don't.

Sophie Allen [01:59:33] Maybe I want to protect him. I don't want him to hurt and go. I'm not sure what's going on inside of me at this point, let alone want to bring him into it. You know, he's fine, he's okay.

Sophie Allen [01:59:51] Most of our children were still going to church with him at the time. Some of our kids had moved out of the house, and so our daughters were going to church with him. And I was glad to see that. That he wasn't going to church alone and things like that.

Sophie Allen [02:00:04] It was during Doctrine and Covenants or. No, it was during the Book of Mormon study that year. Whatever time frame it is, that just. I became really uncomfortable with everything at church. Couldn't go second hour. I would go in with my younger kids thinking that was safer, but I eventually felt worse.

Sophie Allen [02:00:28] And so he was always very supportive about me not going to church. But to this day, it breaks my heart to see him leave the house alone

Margi Dehlin [02:00:38] and

Sophie Allen [02:00:38] go to church by himself. It hurts. It's sad. I wish I could go be with him, but I can't handle what is said at church.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] So what about your relationship with him as you're becoming basically an apostate? I don't know if you like that term, but I mean, no,

Sophie Allen [02:01:00] I'm not uncomfortable with any of these terms anymore because I, fortunately, have been able to work through it. But there were challenges along the way as far as I'm learning stuff, but I'm not comfortable talking to him about it.

Sophie Allen [02:01:22] Like, the second anointing, we're driving somewhere, and I asked him if he knew what that was, and he didn't know what it was. And I didn't want to be the one to educate him because I'm coming from an intense, biased framework myself. And so I don't want to dump stuff on him. And so I asked him to reach out to other leaders, you know, other priesthood leaders, for him to educate himself.

Sophie Allen [02:01:48] And he hasn't done that, as far as I know. Hasn't Done that. So that was a signal to me that he's just not really. He's so busy that he really can't take on this, if. If that makes sense.

Sophie Allen [02:02:07] But I did bring some things up along the way, such as, like, when trying to explain to him what I'm learning about Joseph Smith. And I would say, I remember asking him one time, so how would you. We had a daughter, about 15 at the time, And I said, how would you feel if a church leader, the prophet, came to our door and told you and I that they felt they wanted to marry our daughter?

Sophie Allen [02:02:38] He was like, well, that's not okay. And I would. He. He sees the conflict in that. He's not okay with that. And he tends to give the answer of, well, men are flawed. People are flawed. Which is a good thing to have, especially if you're in the bishopric, you know, but didn't allow space for me to really explain why I'm bothered or why this hurts me or to the extent of what I am learning.

Sophie Allen [02:03:14] And so it creates this silent divide. And I think a lot of people will relate to. I'm listening to podcasts, I'm reading books, I'm getting all this information,

John Dehlin [02:03:23] making friends. Deep friends.

Sophie Allen [02:03:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] Probably deeper than you ever had at church.

Sophie Allen [02:03:28] Yes. Right. Yes. And we're riding in the car and we have nothing to say to each other,

John Dehlin [02:03:34] you and your husband.

Sophie Allen [02:03:35] We're just silent because I am so intensely going through something that doesn't fit. We don't fit in each other's worlds. So that's a challenge. It's

Margi Dehlin [02:03:47] a huge challenge. And it feels like it may or may not stay right. Like, isn't this the moment where it's taking up so much space? I think it's really common for people describe it as a rabbit hole or where there's a period of time where it is all you're taking in. It's, you know, in the air you breathe. You just can't get enough because it really is trying to fill in space of what's real. Like, what is real then? Because I don't know what's real.

Sophie Allen [02:04:22] And

Margi Dehlin [02:04:23] so there's, like, an intensity to that. So in this moment, it's likely it's all you're doing. It's all other than taking care of the kids and the sort of things that need to be done. So it creates this vacuum of, like, do you talk about the kids? You want to talk about what I ate? Yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:04:44] that's exactly what is happening. Yeah. Just that again, reading Elder Oaks. I didn't I didn't know I was going to stumble into church history. I didn't know all these things. I'm looking for words and stories and things describing. And yes, it was intense during COVID too. So I've got all this time to listen to these things in my earbuds or. And life's just slowly getting back. And yeah, my husband's a fisherman and he loves fishing. He loves everything about boats and all this stuff. And I don't necessarily want to hear that 24 7. And he doesn't want to hear what I'm learning about 24 7.

Sophie Allen [02:05:28] So we have had to learn to sit in silence and be okay with that, be okay with being uncomfortable. I'm trying to think about experiences that would help other people. I think my husband has adopted the understanding that everything will be okay, that we don't have to panic and freak out at the moment. That doesn't mean that we haven't had moments where we have freaked out. But he has proven to me that he has chosen me.

Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage

John Dehlin [02:06:10] If I can go a little deeper on that. So you talked about how you didn't necessarily have an explicit contract when you got married, about what you would believe and how you would both behave church wise for the rest of your lives. But what's understood is you'll both stay faithful, you'll both stay believing, you'll both stay committed and living all the standards and that you'll grow old together, raise your kids, your kids will go on missions, go to byu, get married in the temple, and then when you retire and you're old, you'll serve missions together. And then when you die, you and your husband and your family will all be exalted in Mormon heaven, celestial kingdom and worlds without end and babies without end.

John Dehlin [02:06:56] Like that's kind of the, that's the agreement. There's going to be some point in your relationship with your husband where he's going to be like, wait a minute, at least in his mind, like, you broke the deal, you, you violated the covenants, you violated the contract we had.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] And that's where it begins, where either it's going to rip the marriage apart or one or both of you are going to have to change your beliefs. Kind of cognitive dissonance management theory. And so we'll get to him believing that everything will be okay in the end. But before that, there's going to have to be this grieving process where he's grieving the fact that, or even angry that you broke the deal, broke the covenant and you're like grieving the fact that now you're gonna be married to a faithful Mormon for the rest of your life and that he's not gonna come along on this ride with you.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] And do you wanna have a life where you and your partner aren't in sync on some of the most important things you could ever be in sync about? So can you spend some time from both of your perspectives there?

Sophie Allen [02:08:05] Yeah, I can. And there's stories and they're examples along the way. But at that moment in time of like, how to go forward in our relationship, I think we had to find.

John Dehlin [02:08:19] Go forward.

Sophie Allen [02:08:19] Yeah. Yes, yes. I'm scared to bring things to him and I'm selective as to what I do bring to him. He needs reassurance, you know, just because I'm no longer Mormon, I'm going to choose him as well. And so we consciously had to work on our relationship as far as that goes. And it's intense and unsettling and unnerving and it's shaking up our life. And one thing that we did do is we turned to comedy. We turned to humor when things were just. We would send jokes to each other or video clips of something funny or we're at home, we would turn comedy shows on, we would turn to laughing to get through those intense silent moments.

Sophie Allen [02:09:10] We did turn to comedy. So that was a good thing. That really helped us through it too, and find some other way to connect, to get through it. There were. I'm trying to think of experiences along the way.

John Dehlin [02:09:27] Well, I'll just say for the believer, the almost immediate fear is you're going to leave me, you're not going to want to stay married to me, you're going to cheat on me, you're going to start drinking and doing drugs. So I can almost guarantee you he had those fears or thoughts or fears.

Sophie Allen [02:09:46] He did, he did and he did bring. There was a time where I had a gym bag, an exercise bag that I had to change of clothes in and everything that I needed, if I was so that I could just exercise at a moment's notice. And I had that packed. And at one point he let me know, you've already got your bag packed. And I had to reassure him, I am not going anywhere.

John Dehlin [02:10:09] He was serious.

Sophie Allen [02:10:10] Yeah, he was really fearful of that because again, at this time I'm going through a lot. I'm like, a lot. And yes, I would have liked to have been able to take a time out from life and. And, I don't know, go on a walkabout and just pause Life while I got my head on, but life still continued.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:33] And

Sophie Allen [02:10:34] I still had to prove to my husband and my children that even though I'm changing a whole lot, I'm still your wife and your mother. Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [02:10:47] yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:10:49] yeah. There were a lot of times that we just had to choose each other along the way and reassure each other along the way.

John Dehlin [02:10:59] So you had to reassure him that you weren't gonna leave him and. Or go off the rails.

Sophie Allen [02:11:05] Right.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] Did he have to reassure you?

Sophie Allen [02:11:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:11:11] And in what ways? Like, if I were gonna flip it. What the non believer often feels or the one who leaves is either like, anger, like you're keeping your head in the sand. You're like an ostrich. You are staying ignorant. You're dumb. You won't just open up and learn. Or why don't you care about this stuff like I do? Why don't you want to know? Why don't you trust me enough to ask me why I lost my faith? Why do you want to hear why Aren't you curious instead of, like, not wanting to know anything?

John Dehlin [02:11:46] Like you should want to know more than anyone why I've been through what I've been through and what I think and feel, and you don't want to know any of it. Like, there's that anger and then there's like, am I a disappointment to you now? Am I going to have to live in a marriage where I'm constantly viewed as a disappointment to my part? I don't want to live in a marriage where I'm just a disappointment all the time. I want to be. I think I should be respected for losing my faith. I think it's a matter of courage and intention, integrity. And yet now I'm gonna have to live in this marriage where I feel pitied and like I'm a disappointment. Okay. Did that capture any of my.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:20] Do you relate to. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:12:22] all of them in some way, shape or form. They all showed their ugly head. He. To me, he had to prove to me that he was safe, a safe person, because so much was unsafe in my life at that time. And he. He did, through his kind, loving answers and security, prove to me that he was safe. And then I had to reassure him that I wasn't going to go off the rails and I wasn't going to do all those things. Remember, he married a very independent person. He always knew that I was independent. And I moved along my own timeline in my own way.

Sophie Allen [02:13:06] And. And of course, that's what attracted him to me. But it can also be frightening, too Especially to someone that all of a sudden is not following the dogma of the patriarchy in the household. And things like that start pushing back against rhetoric that I no longer feel comfortable in the home. Yeah. Things along that way.

John Dehlin [02:13:33] And honestly, where it usually comes to is the nonbeliever has to decide if they want to stay in the marriage, and the believer has to decide if they want to stay in the marriage. And oftentimes I think for most people, that's not a marriage most people want. Most non believers don't want to be married to an orthodox believer, and most orthodox believers don't want to be married to an apostate. Do you want to talk about how either of you navigated that decision? I

Sophie Allen [02:14:03] think. Is

John Dehlin [02:14:03] that too personal?

Sophie Allen [02:14:04] No. Comes and goes in instances. Because I'm pretty confident that my husband would be serving in a stake calling at this moment, but his wife is inactive, you know, or people start talking about missions that they're going to serve, and my husband has to realize that I'm not going. That's not our trajectory. We had children along the way tell us that they're not going to serve missions. And, you know, so it's a.

John Dehlin [02:14:41] Then the kids are a battleground. Are the kids going to go with the believer or the non believer and who's influencing who more? Was that a thing?

Sophie Allen [02:14:49] Yes, it is, very much so. A thing thing. And I want to share these stories so that other people can relate. One was our son, who our oldest son had left the church probably around 16. And it was actually my husband that handled it way better than I did. My husband was like, okay, chill out.

John Dehlin [02:15:11] You were a believer at the time?

Sophie Allen [02:15:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:15:14] So eat up before you. And this is the son you have before you married your

Sophie Allen [02:15:18] husband? Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:15:19] He left the church. Wow. Okay.

Sophie Allen [02:15:22] Yeah. He was like, this is not for me. This does not feel good. And of course, I didn't handle it well. I doubled down, I forced him and did all these things because of all the fears that I had. Yeah. But my husband stepped back and was like, just love him. Everything's gonna be okay. You know. So he had his first experience with someone leaving the church, and he handled it quite well.

Sophie Allen [02:15:49] He was the example to me. And then it was time for our other son. So it goes. Two boys, two girls. It was time for our other son to either go to college or serve a mission. And he went with go to college.

Sophie Allen [02:16:06] And he was kind of. Because our older son had left the church, there was a lot of intensity on him to do everything right Right. Quote, right. And watching my son tell us, his dad and his grandparents and his aunts, that he is not going to serve a mission.

John Dehlin [02:16:29] Whoa.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:30] Yeah, that was.

John Dehlin [02:16:31] You were still a believer at that point?

Sophie Allen [02:16:32] I was still going at that point.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Okay.

Sophie Allen [02:16:34] I was not a believer, but I was still going. From everyone's appearances, I still was. And seeing the strength that took him because he got some pushback, you know, but for him to stand his assertion and be like, no, this is what's best for me.

John Dehlin [02:16:52] Dang.

Sophie Allen [02:16:54] And so that was a practice for everybody to still love someone that isn't making the choices that they want them to make.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:01] Yes. Yeah. It's just these moments of, you know, family members standing up, differentiating, and it's kind of that moment of like, you know, will they experience rejection or does love grow to be a bit bigger?

Sophie Allen [02:17:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:18] In that moment. Right.

Sophie Allen [02:17:20] Yeah. I would say that we're a good example of a modern Mormon family at this point, causing that expansion to happen, causing that those experience to learn from those individual experiences and growth. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:33] And I don't mean to call that, I don't know your family if it was super enmeshed, but when all these adult children are all living together with the grandparents geographically co. Located, that takes a lot of courage for the grandkids to stand up to their parents and grandma and grandpa and all the cousins and aunts and uncles and say, we're going off plan, we're going off script, we're not going on missions. So your sons showed some courage.

Sophie Allen [02:18:00] Yes. It probably would have been much easier to just go on a mission.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:05] Wow.

Sophie Allen [02:18:06] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] And so by that second son, you handled it better.

Sophie Allen [02:18:13] I don't know. I don't. Different. Different. Yeah. You know, your first child, I refer to my first child, the poor kid is a burnt pancake. Burnt on one side, rock in the middle. You know, just like you screw up your first child, you tend to. And so. Yeah, I know. He's a trooper. He's a trooper,

Margi Dehlin [02:18:32] though. You're amazing. An amazing burnt pancake. Are

John Dehlin [02:18:36] you speaking to her Persona? Whoever you are,

Margi Dehlin [02:18:39] whoever you are,

Sophie Allen [02:18:41] the

Margi Dehlin [02:18:41] burnt pancake is not about you.

Sophie Allen [02:18:44] It's

Margi Dehlin [02:18:44] about our parent.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] My parents use the burnt pancake metaphor too.

Sophie Allen [02:18:48] Oh, okay, good.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] So I grew up with that metaphor as well.

Sophie Allen [02:18:53] Yeah. He had intense parents. He had different parents. And then my husband's speaking to him, handling these situations. Another example of that. And I asked my daughters if I could share this was they still continued to go to church with my husband. And it was so selfish of Me, Because I would wake them up and I would be like, you got to get ready for church. You got it. And they didn't want to. And I'm like, please go. You know

John Dehlin [02:19:25] why?

Sophie Allen [02:19:26] I

John Dehlin [02:19:26] would think as a non believer, you wouldn't want to.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:28] I didn't want him to go alone.

Sophie Allen [02:19:29] I didn't want him to go alone.

John Dehlin [02:19:30] You didn't want your husband to go alone so you would have your daughters.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:34] So it's kind of extra pressure on them. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:19:37] That's a slightly different dynamic. Because the dynamic that's most common is the non believer wants all the kids to stay home. And the believing spouse. And the believing spouse wants everyone to go, including the non believing spouse.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:51] Not only that, but sometimes, like planning a Sunday that is more exciting.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] Yeah. Like let's go hiking, let's go to the beach.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:01] It's not meant in a mean spirited way, but it's sort of like, but here's how I want to spend my Sunday. Okay. Now you can choose.

Sophie Allen [02:20:09] Yes. And

John Dehlin [02:20:10] then the kids are like a football field. Like football.

Sophie Allen [02:20:14] Because my church became going to the beach. That was where I got my spirituality. And so the kids would say, I want to go to mom's church.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:21] Right.

Sophie Allen [02:20:22] You know,

Margi Dehlin [02:20:23] it's complicated. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:25] But you would pressure your daughters to go so your husband wouldn't have to be alone at church.

Sophie Allen [02:20:29] I did.

John Dehlin [02:20:29] That was just your kindness, basically.

Sophie Allen [02:20:32] Just. I didn't know how to handle the heartbreak.

John Dehlin [02:20:34] It

Sophie Allen [02:20:35] softened the heartbreak of it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] And you regret that now?

Sophie Allen [02:20:41] Not so much. I just was trying to survive. Just, you know, I think everyone knew where my heart was, but they had to get adamant with me. They had to be like, mom, you are being hypocritical. And I'm okay, You're right. Look at

Margi Dehlin [02:20:58] them with their own voices.

Sophie Allen [02:21:00] Yeah. And so an example of that was it came time to extend callings to my daughter and she is part of the stalwart family, so it kind of made sense. And her aunt was also in the young women's presidency, so it came time for her to become a leader in the young women's and my daughter didn't want to. And she's asking me, she's asking me, what's the best way to respond to dad. That I don't want to have this calling. And at this point, I don't have words to explain what's going on inside of me. I don't have terminology. I don't know how to parent without the church.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:49] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [02:21:49] You know, an answer would be, just do what you think is Right. And you'll be blessed. But I couldn't give those answers anymore. And so I'm having to teach her to stand up for herself and do what internally feels right to her. And it doesn't feel good on the outside to tell dad no, because he's extending these callings to tell dad that I don't want to be in this presidency. And part of me was like, well, can you just say yes? You know, what does it really mean? And she reminded me, if I'm gonna say yes to something, she does the best at everything. And she's like, I want to do a good job. Why would I say yes to something you

John Dehlin [02:22:30] don't want to tell your kid? Don't do your best job. Don't take the commitments you make very seriously. You don't want to be in that position. Right,

Sophie Allen [02:22:38] right. So I just. I said, I'm going to support you and believe you in whatever you do, so. And then there was, like, youth camp and things like that. That they start saying no to, that culturally within our church doesn't come naturally, you know, so they started gaining their independence. Your

John Dehlin [02:22:58] daughters.

Sophie Allen [02:22:58] Yeah, all of my children.

John Dehlin [02:23:00] So the dominoes. It's kind of like the dominoes start to fall. From your husband's perspective.

Sophie Allen [02:23:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:06] Or people start

John Dehlin [02:23:10] wake up.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:11] Waking up and actually connecting with themselves, and our culture is rebuilt. That can withstand people having different opinions or different things. Yeah.

Sophie Allen [02:23:24] Yes, for sure. Yeah. And it changes those family Mormon traditions, You know, like, okay, you're not doing everything to send your child on a mission. You're doing everything to send them off to school or the young woman's graduation or. Because the youth go to the temple so early now, you know, saying no to doing those things. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] And, yeah, Margi is right. Like. Like you could frame this as everybody's waking up. Right. Like it's Pleasantville or Truman show or the Matrix. But I was just saying, from her husband's perspective, it's all the dominoes in my family.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:13] Yeah. And it shifts the reality from something that can be experienced, especially probably from his point of view, is very simple, to something that gets very complicated really quickly

John Dehlin [02:24:30] and painful.

Sophie Allen [02:24:31] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:32] And uncertain. Something that shifts from certain to really uncertain. Yeah.

Sophie Allen [02:24:38] It's been a practice in holding all those truths, all those experiences, all those feelings. Because being an active member in the church, everything is so black and white. It. It. Having those uncomfortable feelings is supposed to be a signal that something's wrong,

Margi Dehlin [02:24:56] that

Sophie Allen [02:24:56] you're doing something wrong instead of holding space for all of it. And I remember one child being kind of in a panic of making the wrong choice and me telling them, you know what? What if this is the wrong choice? Let's learn from that. It's okay. You're gonna get the strength to get through the wrong choice. Let's practice that. Let's practice the wrong choice.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:24] Yeah. I love it.

Sophie Allen [02:25:24] You know, and for my husband, I'm sure it is all of those things, all of those scary things. And having a relationship to hold onto does take a constant reassurance of that we choose each other through those really hard moments. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:47] I have a question for you. I feel like there was a time in our marriage where we were introduced to an idea that was really helpful to us at the time. And I'm going to have you answer a question, if that's okay, based on what was given to us at the time. This was given to us by Liz.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:08] So in every kind of marriage of individuals, you kind of have your own worlds. And what I'm noticing here is, you know, being raised in Mormonism, there's a lot of safety in being the same. And what happens when differentiation happens. And differentiation oftentimes is registered as conflict or abandonment. Even the fact that I feel one way, you feel another way, emotionally, it can feel like abandonment. Like, now I'm alone, now I have, you know, no one. So if you were going to describe kind of, so your husband has a world, and then you have a world, and it sounds like what you're saying is now your faiths, your beliefs, or Mormonism, like, it's part of his world.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:58] Mormonism. Right. And it may not be part of your world, your rebuilt world. Right. And then you have a shared world. And that's like, where your circles. There's the Venn diagram of, like, what is shared. And I love that because it allows for you to have a self.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:19] Right. Not everything is shared. And actually, I mean, in research of relationships and, like, relationships do better, actually, they're oxygenated by these differences. How would you talk about, like, what you see in his world, just briefly, that, you know, may be different. You've mentioned fishing, you've mentioned Mormonism. But, like, some of his world things, some of your world things, and then shared. Because the important. I mean, shared is important. It is what sort of tethers the relationship. Right?

Sophie Allen [02:27:53] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:54] How would you talk about that?

Sophie Allen [02:27:57] My husband's world. Fishing works a ton.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] That's his world.

Sophie Allen [02:28:06] That's his world. That's a good

Margi Dehlin [02:28:08] part of his

Sophie Allen [02:28:08] world. Yes, yes. And we connect through sharing jokes throughout the Day, you know, to each other. His world works for a heterosexual white male.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:25] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:28:27] my world. It would be interesting to hear someone else describe my world, but my world, I would say, is very colorful.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:45] What are the interests and the activities or, like, if I dropped in on a day where some of the things you love are in it, what are the things that are in your world that might not necessarily make the shared part?

Sophie Allen [02:28:59] Oh, gosh, that's a good question.

John Dehlin [02:29:00] Podcasts, books, music, sounds. Friends.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:03] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [02:29:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do live independent worlds from each other. I work a lot as well.

John Dehlin [02:29:14] You have a job?

Sophie Allen [02:29:15] I do. I work in an office during the week, and then I work in a restaurant on the weekends. So I just have different people in my world. I'm a bartender. I've always been a bartender. Our whole marriage, actually.

John Dehlin [02:29:31] Even as a believer. Really? As

Sophie Allen [02:29:33] a believer? Yeah. That's

John Dehlin [02:29:34] kind of wild.

Sophie Allen [02:29:35] Yeah. I held young women's presidency meetings in my bar.

John Dehlin [02:29:40] That's cool.

Sophie Allen [02:29:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I realize how weird that can sound, but it actually worked at the moment.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:47] Interesting.

Sophie Allen [02:29:49] And we have made new friends because our world was so. Just Mormon friends. Just, you know, and now we've made colorful friends, more friends outside. So when we both work a lot, really, Sundays are our only days to be together, so we. We make an effort to hang out with friends. So if you were to drop into our shared lives together, we're watching our daughter dance, or we're hanging out with our kids, or we're.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:24] It's kind of children.

Sophie Allen [02:30:25] Yeah, children. Or just hanging out with new friends

Margi Dehlin [02:30:28] and new friends.

Sophie Allen [02:30:29] New friends. New gay friends.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:32] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:30:33] we are. Most of our friends right now are gay.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:37] And is that from your world?

Sophie Allen [02:30:40] Actually, they were friends with my husband first.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:42] Wow. That's.

Sophie Allen [02:30:43] Yeah. But we just. We just enjoy hanging out with them.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:50] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [02:30:51] Yeah.

Finding Community After Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [02:30:52] Okay, so I want to just follow back up on something you mentioned earlier, which we were talking about you finding your Marco Polo group.

Sophie Allen [02:31:01] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:02] So your Marco Polo group, I think, is part of your own world. And what I love about it was, is that it filled a need that your husband couldn't fill, and so you found a way to meet that need. And my question is, how was it ever a barrier? Like, do you feel like you had to deconstruct the idea that intimacy meant that it had to be your partner? Your partner should be hearing these things, and because he's not, you're now going to other people. Like, did you find.

Sophie Allen [02:31:40] Yeah. I realized that my husband can't be everything. That's too much pressure for a spouse. That's too much pressure for anybody, which was part of the feeling alone, part of the isolation and the struggle. I had to actively find and seek out community, but it took me a good year before I could find anybody to talk to. Yeah. My husband couldn't be everything, so, yeah, I had to go out and find community and not put that pressure on him to solve all my problems. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:23] And was part of your. Your journey within this time also trying to find grounding for emotional intimacy with

John Dehlin [02:32:35] him or with other.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:36] With him, if that changed because of the shift.

John Dehlin [02:32:41] Because the risk is you can grow apart.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:43] That's kind of what I'm trying to.

John Dehlin [02:32:45] The risk for y' all and so many people is like, yeah, you know, we work during the week, we don't see each other, and, okay, we see each other maybe on a Sunday, but then we're developing deep, meaningful emotional connections with all. All these new people we've met. He's fishing. The risk is you grow apart.

Sophie Allen [02:33:03] Yes. Yes. Through. I would say.

John Dehlin [02:33:08] Or fall in love with someone else. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:33:10] yeah, yeah. Through us. Along the way, choosing each other, our intimacy grew.

John Dehlin [02:33:19] Oh.

Sophie Allen [02:33:20] Through him showing me that he was safe made our intimacy grow.

John Dehlin [02:33:26] And

Sophie Allen [02:33:27] therefore, I. My intimacy is growing more towards him. Therefore, our intimacy was growing. I'll share an embarrassing example of that, but it's actually kind of cute that here I am working in a bar. I've worked in this bar for a long time. I've worked for this restaurant for a long, long time, and I'm making these drinks for people. And they all know I'm. Most of my customers know that I'm Mormon, you know, or whatever. And it dawns on me that I don't believe in the word of wisdom anymore, you know? And they're like, oh, this drink is so good. And I'm like, oh, really? I'm glad you like it, you know, because I like being a mixologist or whatever, and all those things. And it dawns on me. I can taste this drink.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:12] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [02:34:13] I'm like, oh. So I take a straw and I dip it, the straw in there, and, you know, suction it off, and I taste it. I was like, oh, yeah, that is pretty good. You know,

John Dehlin [02:34:21] just after, like, 20 years of being a bartender,

Sophie Allen [02:34:23] 20 years of complete sobriety,

Margi Dehlin [02:34:25] literally. You're like, I'll have to take your word for it.

John Dehlin [02:34:28] That drink

Margi Dehlin [02:34:29] I just made is amazing.

Sophie Allen [02:34:31] All my regulars, all my customers were so respectful, you know, always. But when they saw me do that, they were like, whoa. You know? So I tried another one through a Straw, you know. And being someone who hasn't drank in 20 years, I got a pretty good buzz going on.

Sophie Allen [02:34:50] So I closed the restaurant. I close everything down. And I realized, I can't drive home. What am I going to do? And I actually had some of my presidency with me. I wasn't a president at the time, but she was a good friend. And she's like, sophie, what are you going to do? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Sophie Allen [02:35:10] My husband, who works a lot, is at home in bed, sound asleep. And I said, you know what? I'm already. But go out. So we went to another establishment, and I didn't drink anymore, but I was just having a good time, you know, hanging out. Well, my friend that was with me called my husband and said, you're gonna have to come get Sophie.

Sophie Allen [02:35:33] And so my husband gets out of bed, and everyone. We're a small community where we live. He gets out of bed. He comes into this other establishment that we're at, and I know that everybody sees him. My husband's big comes in, and everyone is just watching him and watching me because they know our dynamic in this small town. And he comes over, and I see him, and I'm like, oh, no, I'm in trouble. And he's like, no, finish your game of pool that I'm attempting to play, that I can't play well.

Sophie Allen [02:36:08] And I'm laughing and giggling and all this stuff, and. And finally I finished my game of pool, and I'm like, okay, you can take me home now. And so we go out to the truck, and we get into the truck, and we go to leave, and he starts the truck, and we go to leave, and I look over at him and I say, I'm in trouble, aren't I?

Sophie Allen [02:36:29] And he sits back, he turns off the truck, and he looks over at me, and he says, I haven't seen you laugh like that in so long. I was like, really? He. And he was sad. He was kind of heartbroken. He was like, I. I haven't seen you laugh like that.

Sophie Allen [02:36:49] And I was like, well, I'm not really interested in drinking and all that stuff. And he goes, well, if there's. If you are going to drink, we need to come up with a compromise or rules or expectations around it or whatever.

Sophie Allen [02:37:05] And at that moment, I softened, and so did he. And just I'd look over at him, and he's sad, And I was like, that's great. Can we talk about this When I'm sober, you know, so he starts the trek and we go home and I'm just looking over at him, just so in love with him at that moment. And I was like, well, guess what? We get to go home and be intimate now, you know? And it was this connection of intimacy that we hadn't had at that point that we wouldn't have gotten to had we not had an experience where we had to let go of everything we thought we knew and saw each other in a different way and a different intimacy. So our intimacy has greatly improved.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:02] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:38:02] that's the best case scenario. Because intimacy can be shut down when two people have major faith differences. But if you can be vulnerable with sometimes the most vulnerable thing and you find out the other person loves you no matter what, that's actually a huge strengthener to intimacy. So that's

Margi Dehlin [02:38:24] when

John Dehlin [02:38:26] I once had the idea of a podcast and channel we created together called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. Like normally a mixed faith marriage can end a marriage unless it strengthens the marriage because the couple becomes more emotionally vulnerable and emotionally connected and start feeling more emotionally safe. Cause at the end of the day, I think healthy sexual intimacy is tied to feelings of emotional safety. And the more emotionally safe and the more emotionally secure you feel, the healthier sexuality becomes. So this is a rare case when a mixed faith marriage can end up being better for your sex life and also for your relationship.

Sophie Allen [02:39:20] Yeah, that's really.

John Dehlin [02:39:21] Check that out, people.

Sophie Allen [02:39:22] Yeah, that's really why I really wanted to share my story, was to share that like if you are in a mixed faith marriage or in that tug and toll, that tug and pull of a relationship and you're wondering why, you know, you're not being intimate, you're not getting that love, you're not getting that response. It is most likely because you have proven you are not safe in some way. So it's important for you to self check. It's important for you to grow and realize that if you want your partner to be intimate with you, you have a responsibility to be a safe person and know it all. People, people who know everything within the church because they've been given every answer tend to not be safe sometimes. And so it's, it's important to do that self grow and choose each other. And yeah, your intimacy will greatly improve if you show that that

Margi Dehlin [02:40:28] would you say that, you know, another thing that you share at the core? Do you feel like you have shared values at the core and that has helped cement you during a time of, let's Say, exploration, change. I'm curious about that piece

Sophie Allen [02:40:49] for

Margi Dehlin [02:40:49] you both.

Sophie Allen [02:40:49] Yeah. I think that being at church, your values become the church's values. So when you start thinking about values outside of the church context, we must, we obviously do, you know, like human respect and human love and just the way that we respect human life and each other, we must share that value, even though we don't. We haven't talked about it, we haven't come up with the words for it. We must, even though value is, you know, do you value your covenants? Do you. You know, it's just so indoctrinated into the church verbiage of values that I guess we're finding that out.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:38] Well, I just think it's kind of interesting because when we had asked you what stood out about. It's Greg, right?

Sophie Allen [02:41:44] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:45] When you first met him, none of them were Mormon things.

Sophie Allen [02:41:48] No.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:48] You were like hardworking and he is a problem solver and, and he's funny and in some ways it's what you've come back to here, which I think is really interesting because oftentimes in Mormon stories you ask people and they're all Mormon things. Right. That they're looking for. So I do think values is an important part of this equation when it comes to a mixed faith because I don't think every marriage with a shift like this can last. I think values can change and make it so that you're not compatible and vulnerability and sort of it's not enough there. But just wanted to check in with you there.

Sophie Allen [02:42:33] Yeah, I think so. I think if my husband had different values as far as maybe sexuality or humans in general. Yeah. It would be very hard.

John Dehlin [02:42:50] Do you mean if he wasn't LGBT affirming?

Sophie Allen [02:42:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:52] Okay.

Sophie Allen [02:42:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:53] But that's something he is LGBT affirming. So in that sense you don't have that difference that could have been a deal breaker for you.

Sophie Allen [02:43:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] If he was homophobic or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:03] Oh,

Sophie Allen [02:43:04] for sure.

John Dehlin [02:43:04] Okay.

Sophie Allen [02:43:05] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:43:06] Okay.

Sophie Allen [02:43:06] Yeah. That would be closed minded and narrow minded and know it all and all those things that I am not attracted to at all. Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:43:15] yeah, yeah. Common values is a huge, huge thing. So, you know, and if you're the believing spouse and I value that my husband has a testimony or I value that my husband's

Sophie Allen [02:43:26] a

John Dehlin [02:43:26] worthy priesthood holder, your marriage is in trouble. Right?

Sophie Allen [02:43:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:31] But if you both value fidelity and kindness and commitment and fun and honesty and integrity, then you've got a shot. Right. Even if one of you leaves the church.

Sophie Allen [02:43:46] Yeah.

Children Leaving the Church and Family Dynamics

John Dehlin [02:43:47] Okay, couple questions. So you mentioned in Your outline that all four of your kids are out of the church.

Sophie Allen [02:43:54] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:43:56] So sometimes there can be this game or this competition where each is tallying how many have stayed in the church, how many have left, who's winning, and in this case, for your husband. And five out of the six are out. He's the only one left.

John Dehlin [02:44:13] And immediately what would come to my mind would be that he would be blaming you for taking the whole family out other than him, except for the fact that two of the kids left before you. So in that sense, you were kind of lucky. I don't know if lucky is the right word, because I don't know how he would have reacted if you were the first, if he would have then blamed you for the first time to leaving. But that's not what you had to deal with because the first two, it's almost like your sons were pioneers. Your first two sons were pioneers. That made it easier for you to be able to leave and to not be blamed for, like, wrecking the Mormon family.

John Dehlin [02:44:51] So I'm kind of answering my own question there, but, like, it sounds like he's not angry at you for blowing up his Mormon family.

Sophie Allen [02:45:01] Not that he's communicated with me. There might be some internal struggle there that we haven't communicated, but I don't feel that coming from him. But I do feel it from outside people.

John Dehlin [02:45:15] So you won't say his family, but his family might not fully. And I don't even need you to speak to them because I don't want to cause in law problems. But the common scenario is the in laws will blame the in law you, in this case, for wrecking the whole family's faith.

Sophie Allen [02:45:36] Right.

John Dehlin [02:45:37] Cause then those are grandchildren that are empty chairs in your in laws celestial kingdom.

Sophie Allen [02:45:44] Right,

John Dehlin [02:45:45] Right.

Sophie Allen [02:45:46] My in laws have been great. They have not. They haven't put that on in any. I haven't felt that from them. But ward members, community members. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:01] Right.

John Dehlin [02:46:01] That you're the reason that your family blew up.

Sophie Allen [02:46:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:05] And it's

Margi Dehlin [02:46:06] really common to see that. Right. Where people create a story that makes it understandable, reinforce their belief system and their view of threat and how it works.

John Dehlin [02:46:21] Because it can't be that the church has problems. It's got to be. You have problems.

Sophie Allen [02:46:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:46:26] Sophie has problems.

Sophie Allen [02:46:28] Right. And

John Dehlin [02:46:28] she wrecked her eternal family.

Sophie Allen [02:46:30] Right.

John Dehlin [02:46:30] Broke her covenants.

Sophie Allen [02:46:32] And then there's that invisible pressure for my children to do well outside of the church as well. Like, everything's okay. I've left the church, but everything's okay.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] I'm Happy. I'm happy.

Sophie Allen [02:46:44] I'm

John Dehlin [02:46:44] so moral.

Sophie Allen [02:46:44] My kids are fine, successful. Yeah. But life's life, right? Life happens. So I don't think that my husband and I have put that tally back or put that blame on either of each other. I think that our children are a good example of their generation. Honestly, they view the church entirely different than

Margi Dehlin [02:47:11] it

Sophie Allen [02:47:12] was their rhetoric. They often are like, mom, why are you. Why do you even care? You know why. Yeah. You know, I heard not just my kid, but another you say we were never told we had to wear our garments day and night. You know, just a different church. They are in a different church, a different mind space. I don't even think in their minds that they have fully left the church. The church just doesn't work for them right now.

John Dehlin [02:47:40] They haven't processed it. You're saying.

Sophie Allen [02:47:41] Yeah. They

John Dehlin [02:47:42] just lost interest.

Sophie Allen [02:47:44] Yeah. Or what? Older prophets or people, you know, what they're saying is just so weird. Let's not even. It's

John Dehlin [02:47:51] not relevant.

Sophie Allen [02:47:51] Yeah. It's irrelevant.

John Dehlin [02:47:52] Yeah. Yeah. Because Gen Z and a lot of Gen X are fleeing the Mormon Church like rats in a sinking ship. I hate to say it, but

Sophie Allen [02:48:01] yeah. I have a millennial Gen Z and an Alpha, and they just view things so differently. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:10] Okay. And then the other thing is, what's kept your husband from being committed to a behavioral health unit is likely the way cognitive dissonance management works. Because he can't just be living every day thinking, well, my Mormon family's a failure, my wife is an apostate, and all my kids are apostates, and I'm going to be in sad heaven alone, and this life is worthless. Like, I know people.

John Dehlin [02:48:40] Someone close to me adopted that worldview because her husband never joined and her kids all left and she basically died early. But it doesn't sound like that's what your husband is doing or thinking or feeling. Which means that he probably had to engage in cognitive dissonance management, which is the change his beliefs to fit. He's still a believer on whatever level he's a believer. But I can almost guarantee you there's orthodox Mormon beliefs or doctrines that he's modified so that he could not be suffering in this life that he's now living. Is that fair to say? And I don't even know if you're able to speak to that, or maybe you don't want to.

Sophie Allen [02:49:24] I'm going to imagine that he feels all of it, you know, moment to moment. I'm sure that the bigger picture, he does do. What is comfortable for him. And I'm sure when he goes to church or he hears a talk or he hears something like that, he's got to do that gymnastics. He's got to find a way to make it work for him, I would imagine. And that is challenging for me because I will bring something up to him and it's like I don't get to meet. Meet his full thoughts on it, if that makes sense. You know, he

John Dehlin [02:50:00] doesn't want to fully share or. Is that what you mean? Or

Sophie Allen [02:50:05] I. He just goes straight to feeling better instead of sitting with the uncomfortable

John Dehlin [02:50:10] of it,

Sophie Allen [02:50:11] if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:50:12] Are it compartmentalizes? Is that what you're saying?

Sophie Allen [02:50:14] Maybe, maybe I don't get the apologist answers, thankfully, but I also don't get. I don't get to wrestle with it with him. I guess

John Dehlin [02:50:24] the typical coping is, oh, Heavenly Father will work it all out in the end somehow. Heavenly Father is loving and just in the end, which, if that's true, then none of this is necessary because we could all just live whatever life we want to live and then go to heaven and Heavenly Father will work it all out. So that's the interesting thing about Mormon cognitive dissonance management is if you were to extend that to its logical conclusion, then baptism doesn't matter, Temple marriage doesn't matter, Faithful Mormonism doesn't matter, because Heavenly Father will make it all work in the end. But I'm guessing that's where he goes. Where Heavenly Father won't keep my apostate wife and kids out somehow we'll all be together in the social kingdom someday.

Sophie Allen [02:51:09] I think that is what he says.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:13] I think what's interesting here to me is realizing in relationship to a partner that you may not have access to deepest thoughts or access to or you experience, let's just say, their shortcut. Like you were saying, like, I don't get the grapple or the reckoning kind of thing. We just kind of get to the good feeling or. And it just reminds me. I don't mean to be like repetitive, but it does remind me of the nature of relationship, like the challenge of being in relationship. And it reminds me of. Have you ever heard of the show Couples Therapy with the New York City Couples Therapist? I

Sophie Allen [02:52:07] haven't seen it, but I've heard of it.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:08] You've heard of it? She was in an interview and this just stuck with me. And if I bludgeon it, I'm really sorry. But like, the idea that I remember behind it, that felt so revolutionary to me was this idea of you know, we are all the center of our own worlds. You know, we know our points of view oftentimes the most, and we know what feels right and what feels like. This is where we live. We live as the center of our own experiences. And when you make that leap of faith, faith to connect with another human being, children can do this. Like love does this.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:48] But it's like basically trying to get to know another person's world. And it's a huge endeavor to attempt to decenter ourselves and allow for someone else's existence to feel as real, you know, and that's what this you're reminding me of because you're so, like, as you're talking about it, I'm not sensing wrestling from you, like, I'm sensing an acceptance of this is a different person that I love who sees and experiences. You know, we may see similar things, but we experience them differently, you know, and just how revolutionary it is when you think about it, that we are emboldened enough to try it all, you know, I don't know, it's just.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:40] It's a beautiful thing. And just had a moment of like. Like feeling that and being reminded of that. The endeavor of what it is to love. How we come into the world being just like we are literally centered in ourselves, you know, and we do know our experience best. And so. Yeah,

Sophie Allen [02:54:00] yeah, yeah. I would say that this experience has almost made this next chapter because we've got children leaving the house and things like that. It almost. I don't know if I want to say more exciting, but we've had to come back together. Whereas if we were just still living that, you know, that remote, like the normal, everyday Mormon life, you know, of like, okay, we're going to travel to see them off on their mission. We're going to, you know, if we were just going down the repetitive path, we wouldn't be coming together at this moment in these intimate ways, these wrestle ways, this growth way as hard as it is, I don't want to make it sound like it's just all roses. It's been hard. Really, really hard. But really great, too.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:58] Absolutely.

Sophie Allen [02:54:59] Yeah. And we've been married for. We're going to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary. And it's almost like we're starting a new life together.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:08] Absolutely. And you are.

Sophie Allen [02:55:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:12] I mean, I do think that Esther Perel quote about, you know, different marriages, this idea of having within a marriage. Different marriages.

Sophie Allen [02:55:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:24] Everyone will have at least three marriages in their lifetime. It'll either be to the same person or different People.

Sophie Allen [02:55:30] But we don't hear that rhetoric at church. We don't hear that stuff at church. We don't hear. We hear make, you know, make good choices so that your marriage will be good. But we don't hear about the human development or the nitty gritty or what that looks like, you know, and church isn't supposed to give you everything. It's not. But also it's not reinforcing a lot of healthy dynamics. It's creating a fear base in a lot of marriages to make. You are not gonna be okay unless your partner and you are on the covenant path. And so when someone veers off, it can be really, really scary. Really, really hard for both of. It's been hard for me and my husband. You know, it's terrifying in its own right, but I couldn't deny it.

Mutual Respect as the Key to Their Marriage

John Dehlin [02:56:31] Yeah. If a believer's willing to go with it, they can have a better sex life with their non believing partner. They can have more fun, less pressure, less stress, less intensity. Like it can be lonely, but it can also have a lot of side benefits. And it sounds like that's probably how it's settling in for your husband, where he, he's getting used to it and actually seeing good things come from it. You could have a healthier spouse once they leave the church because they're no longer as depressed or miserable. Let's flip it for a second. Because oftentimes the non believer looks on their husband or their believing spouse as like they're dumb or they're ignorant or they're unwilling to learn or they're foolish. How can they still believe in these things? All those things I said before? Or they're not curious. They want to stay in their ignorance. What's kept you?

Margi Dehlin [02:57:32] Yeah. One thing I hear a lot of is they choose the church over me. Oh, yeah. They'll make a binary out of it where those two things can exist at the same time.

John Dehlin [02:57:42] Yeah, all that. What's kept you from disrespecting your husband's desire to stay a believer? Or what keeps you being supportive of your husband's belief? Maybe that's a more positive way to frame it. And has that been hard for you or not?

Sophie Allen [02:58:00] Yes. And it depends on the day and the moment in the situation. But if I were to generalize all of it, I don't know. I adore my husband. I enjoy him. I adore him. I don't, I don't feel. I think he's wonderful in his own right. I don't feel like I need to change his perspective on anything, I guess. But do I feel sad and alone because he's not actively seeking what I'm thinking and feeling? Yes, for sure. So there is that tug. But I think he is super brilliant. I think he is super smart. I think he is super capable of all these things. So I have a desire to stick with him. I don't know if that's the answer you're looking for, but

John Dehlin [02:58:56] I'm not looking for any answer other than how it is.

Sophie Allen [02:58:58] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:58:58] but, but there are non believers that, that say how can someone be smart and still believe? You know, And I don't like that. I don't believe that myself, but I hear it a lot. So I'm wondering if you've experienced that and sounds like you have it

Sophie Allen [02:59:14] probably in some ways, in some micro ways or, you know, like why doesn't he want to see what I've found out? But also he may, in time, I guess he may eventually want to know different things.

John Dehlin [02:59:32] So he still hasn't really done the deep dive?

Sophie Allen [02:59:34] No.

John Dehlin [02:59:34] Okay.

Sophie Allen [02:59:35] No.

John Dehlin [02:59:36] Okay. And that's hurtful for some the fact if a spouse won't do the deep dive because sometimes someone will do the deep dive and still, still end up believing. But it's another thing if they just won't even do the deep dive, which is normal. And he hasn't, as far as you know,

Sophie Allen [02:59:52] he hasn't. And I don't take it personal that he hasn't. I guess his own time frame is his own time frame. He's so busy with other things. As much as I wish he would, I can't force him to. He doesn't have the capacity for it.

John Dehlin [03:00:14] You mean time wise?

Sophie Allen [03:00:15] Time wise mentally, all of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't take it personal. I guess

John Dehlin [03:00:22] that's good. The one advice I give people is you don't know what the outcome will be if someone loses their faith. And sometimes be careful what you wish for because somebody could be happy in their faith and then they're pushed into going down the rabbit hole and it's not good for that person in the end sometimes. And it's not good for the marriage or sometimes the family once they were forced down that rabbit hole. So I just say respect all the way around. And you non believers, you apostates need to just respect and love your believing family members and give them the respect that you want.

Sophie Allen [03:01:05] Yeah, that's what it is. Actually. I would say he's mirrored respect towards me so I'm able to mirror it towards him.

John Dehlin [03:01:14] Yeah, that's Beautiful.

Sophie Allen [03:01:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:16] And you got support, I think, where you needed it in order to help you do that.

Sophie Allen [03:01:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:24] Right. Like, I think it's too much to ask if someone's not able to process, talk, get support somewhere with as big as a shift of this is. So, yeah,

Sophie Allen [03:01:38] I did go a long time without support. I did. It was a good year and a half where I just was in outer darkness myself. Yeah. So to some people that are in that, I really recommend just reaching out in community in some way, shape or form. And it might not go great, but. But you have to actively seek it.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:02] So there's the Marriage on the Tightrope community. For mixed faith marriages. There's Restore the Faith Matters community. I'm sure the Waters of. No, it's probably called Waters of Mormon. They probably changed it. It used to be a thoughtful faith, then it was changed to Waters of Mormon. There's a Facebook group for people trying to stay in the church after they've lost their faith. I don't know what they call it these days. Yeah, I guess there's. There's plenty of resources now for progressive therapists.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:30] I mean, a good, highly skilled therapist is an amazing idea. And prioritizing yourself as you can in the life, you have to have moments of nervous system regulation. Get outside. I mean, this is. It's a big endeavor.

Sophie Allen [03:02:47] Yeah. And nature.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:49] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [03:02:50] definitely. I did seek the beach and the ocean when I had nobody. I joined an exercise group. I started doing water exercise with a group of elderly women, and they were delightful. You know, you just. It's unsettling, and you have to put yourself out there and eventually you'll find your groupies, your. Your people. Yeah. And I. Some people talk about Waka

John Dehlin [03:03:16] women of a certain age. That's a great support group for women. Ex Mormon or no longer believing Mormon women 40 years or above. You can find that on Waka Worldwide. On Facebook, for women under 40, there's a faith Journey meetups group that Chelsea Homer leads. There's a lot of Facebook groups. Reddit, Ex Mormon. Reddit can be a great resource for people as well.

Sophie Allen [03:03:45] Yeah. Yeah. It can be really lonely, really hard.

John Dehlin [03:03:49] Yeah.

Sophie Allen [03:03:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:51] All right. Well, you've been so vulnerable and so wise, and I do wish we could meet your husband. We did offer, but it wasn't a good fit to have him on. We understand.

Sophie Allen [03:04:03] Yeah. Yeah. I do have a cute story. I don't know how much time we have,

John Dehlin [03:04:07] but

Sophie Allen [03:04:09] just a couple weeks ago, there was this clip that came out on social media about some preacher in Idaho. Who said something about how he monitors his wife's social media? Did you guys hear about this? And how he. He doesn't believe in women having alone time. Unsupervised alone time. Women shouldn't have that or whatever. I mean, it's just so absurd. It's just so absurd. And I shared it with my husband. Husband. Trying to get his perspective on how absurd this was. And it's almost laughable. So my husband laughs. You know, that's just wild. That's crazy. You know? And I was like, yeah, but let. I'm trying to get him to explain.

Sophie Allen [03:04:51] Well, what if our children come across this media feed and it. It sits right with them? What if they're lonely and struggling and they meet a friend that leads them down this path? You know, what if our daughters meet someone that was one way when they. When they married them, and then their spouse changes and goes off with this strange group and he just starts laughing and he's like, gee, I wonder what that would be like.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:22] He's like, I see what you're doing.

Sophie Allen [03:05:24] And then I went, wait a minute. That's not what I wanted to talk about, you know, And. And he was like, you just love them. You just. You hold on to them and. And you try and guide them the best that you can. And, you know, he said all the right things, but it was kind of that funny dynamic. What if they do start listening to podcasts or, you know, all that stuff? So again, we turn to humor. Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [03:05:47] I love that.

Final Reflections and Words of Wisdom

John Dehlin [03:05:49] Any final lessons or pieces of wisdom or sources of joy for you or him that you to share before we sign off? I know he. He leads fishing adventures. Is that right?

Sophie Allen [03:06:02] He does. He's a guide fisherman. Yes. Did

John Dehlin [03:06:05] you want to give a shout out to his business? This is jackcreekguidedadventures.com

Sophie Allen [03:06:12] Yep. So he does clam digging and crabbing and. And salmon and sturgeon and. Yeah. Anything out on the water in those adventures?

John Dehlin [03:06:20] In Oregon.

Sophie Allen [03:06:21] In Oregon. Astoria, Oregon.

John Dehlin [03:06:23] Okay.

Sophie Allen [03:06:23] Yeah. He's a great, great captain.

John Dehlin [03:06:26] And I see you do landscaping.

Sophie Allen [03:06:29] Oh, that

John Dehlin [03:06:31] is a personal.

Sophie Allen [03:06:32] That's my art.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] Yeah. That's what I do. That's

Sophie Allen [03:06:34] my joy. My art is landscaping. I don't get to get out there as much as I want, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't think of anything else at the moment. I don't know what else. I said I'd love to watch tv. I'm a big TV person. Movies. I love all that. Yeah. I think I mentioned Ted. Lasso,

John Dehlin [03:06:53] Chilling, Eve, Firefly, Lane, And Ted Lasso are your.

Sophie Allen [03:06:57] Yeah, when I filled that out, that was them. Those are good TV shows. Yeah. Those are great escapes. And my husband sleeps through them all.

John Dehlin [03:07:09] I never get tired during our TV watching, do I, Margi?

Sophie Allen [03:07:15] Good thing I watch everything with closed caption. So. Snoring so loud. I can still watch it.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:22] Margi, any final questions? Just

Margi Dehlin [03:07:24] that we appreciate you. Thank you so much for sharing.

Sophie Allen [03:07:26] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:27] Your story.

Sophie Allen [03:07:29] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [03:07:30] Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for being so vulnerable. And mostly I just hope this gives people hope because people are leaving the church in droves and. And many faithful Mormon marriages are becoming mixed faith marriages in droves. So what we like to do is provide people hope that being in a mixed faith marriage doesn't have to end the marriage.

Sophie Allen [03:07:53] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:54] Many paths.

Sophie Allen [03:07:55] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the church. And when I say the church, I mean the people of the church are expanding a lot more to hold capacity from when I started. My sweet brother and his wife, when I told them what I was doing and they are TBMs, true believing Mormons, they asked how they could help me and support me and get me ready for this.

John Dehlin [03:08:22] This podcast.

Sophie Allen [03:08:23] Yeah, this podcast.

John Dehlin [03:08:24] Yeah,

Sophie Allen [03:08:25] specifically. And so I have seen a change. I have seen

John Dehlin [03:08:31] change in the culture.

Sophie Allen [03:08:32] Yeah. Which is nice and wonderful, but also disorienting and a little bit, you know,

Margi Dehlin [03:08:38] sure.

Sophie Allen [03:08:39] You guys have talked about that before, how it. Yeah, it can be disorienting, but there are some really nice examples.

John Dehlin [03:08:47] Well, thanks to you and your husband for helping give people hope and some tools and tips and tricks. I hope I get to meet him someday.

Sophie Allen [03:08:57] Yeah. Come fishing.

John Dehlin [03:08:59] That might be fun.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:02] Go find some clams.

John Dehlin [03:09:03] All right.

Sophie Allen [03:09:04] I

John Dehlin [03:09:05] do like clam chowder.

Sophie Allen [03:09:06] Yeah,

John Dehlin [03:09:07] I like salmon. All right, well, Sophie Allen, thanks so much for sharing your Mormon story with us today. Thank you. If people want to get a hold of you. Do you want to even let people get a hold of you, or is that not how you want?

Sophie Allen [03:09:19] I'm not really present on anything. Yeah. Just come fishing. I guess you could come to Astoria. You. You'd probably run into us. You know, we're probably out there.

John Dehlin [03:09:30] Yeah. All right, all right, well, really quickly, please take a second to like and subscribe this episode. Please share it. We want to thank all our donors that make Mormon Stories podcast possible. If you're not a donor and you want to see this content continue, if you found value from it, we'd love you to go to mormonstories.org donate Become a monthly donor. That's how we continue existing. We also love your email@mormonstoriesmail.com if you want to apply to be on the show like sophie, go to mormonstories.org apply and that's how you apply to be on the show.

Closing Thoughts and Sign-Off

John Dehlin [03:10:05] And we always love your feedback. We love your comments on YouTube. So if you value this, if you have questions for Sophie, for me or Margi, if you want to find community, one way to find it is through the comments on YouTube.

John Dehlin [03:10:18] So please engage their emails if you have any questions or concerns or ideas. And mostly, we just hope you'll be good to each other and be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Thanks everybody. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.