Introduction and Welcome

Guest [00:00:00] Teach me to walk in the light of his love Teach me to pray to my Father above Teach me to know all the things that are right Teach me, teach me to walk in the light Come, little child, and together we'll learn.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Hello and welcome again to another edition of Mormon Matters, your weekly romp through all things Mormon, including current events, popular culture, history, and all sorts of other things. We're very excited today to have with us two LDS women. The first is Rosalind Welch, and the second is Taryn Nelson Seawright. Ladies, welcome to both of you.

Rosalynde Welch [00:01:08] Thank you.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:01:09] Thank you. Thanks.

Guests Introduce Themselves

John Dehlin [00:01:11] So, Rosalind, this is your first time as well as yours, Taryn. But Rosalind, why don't you begin and introduce yourself to our listeners, please?

Rosalynde Welch [00:01:21] Sure, John. I'm Rosalind Welch. I grew up, Rosalind Franson in Southern California, the oldest daughter of two very active LDS parents. I grew up as a good Mormon girl, went to Brigham Young University. I served a mission in Porto, Portugal, in 1996 and 1997.

Rosalynde Welch [00:01:46] I majored in English, and when I got home from my mission, I knew that I wanted to go to graduate school. I became engaged to my husband, John Welch, who was in medical school in San Diego. So I moved to San Diego and started my PhD in early modern English Literature at the University of California at San Diego.

Rosalynde Welch [00:02:08] During the time that I was working on my degree, I had two of my three children, Elena and Jack. Shortly after I finished, in fact, just a few days after I graduated in 2004, we moved to St. Louis, Missouri, where we currently live. My husband is an oncology fellow at Washington University, and I spend most of my time at home with my children, who now includes a third little girl, Mara, who is now one. I also, during my abundant spirit spare time, I continue to work on some of my research projects. I've published a few things here and there, and I attend conferences and try to press forward on my research.

Rosalynde Welch [00:02:53] I also have greatly enjoyed my introduction to blogging over the last several years, and I am a blogger@timesandseasons.org and I also participate in a few other academic projects here and there. I have sort of eclectic interests and I indulge them freely. So that is me and I am glad to be here with you, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Well, thanks, Rosalind. Now, what's it like going from San Diego to Missouri?

Rosalynde Welch [00:03:22] Well, you know, the difference in climate is almost as big as the difference in real estate prices, and we moved here for the real estate, not for the climate. But you know, after three years here, I can honestly say we are enjoying it very much. We have a wonderful wardrobe. It's been a great professional opportunity for my husband. I have adjusted to the humidity and the snow. It no longer feels like a personal insult from the universe when I have to dress my children in shoes and socks before I take them outside during the wintertime. And we have been enjoying it very much.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Good, good. And is your husband related to the Mr. Welch of farms fame?

Rosalynde Welch [00:03:59] Yes, he is, yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] So you're somewhat connected to John Fowles a bit probably then.

Rosalynde Welch [00:04:05] Yes. John Fowles is my brother in law.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Oh, well, wonderful. Well again, Rosalind, we're very thrilled to have you. Thank you for coming.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:04:12] You're welcome.

Rosalynde Welch [00:04:13] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] Now, Taryn, you're an old friend. We go way back. Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:04:21] Let me see. Well, I'm Taryn Nelson seawright. I am 30 years old. I live in the Chicago area with my husband, Jay Nelson Seawright. We. We are both bloggers at By Common Consent and Latter Day Saint Liberation Front. By Common Consent is kind of a general purpose Mormon issues and culture blog. And Latter Day Saint Liberation Front, as one might guess from the title, is dedicated to an examination of some of the ideas behind liberation theology in a Mormon context. I've written on both general themes and themes more related to the economic stuff that I just mentioned. But my first strongest interests in Mormon studies are probably Book of Mormon studies and gender issue studies.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:05:10] Actually, I've currently got an analysis running. I'm part of a research group, a collection of women across the country and one woman in Europe. We are looking at the authorship of the ensign over the last 30 years by gender and doing an analysis of the themes. The different authors feel comfortable talking about that kind of thing. So that's what I do in Mormon studies related fields. Professionally, I'm actually a social science researcher. I do qualitative research on medical practice.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Yes, and it's also fair to say that you're one of the first interviewees for Mormon Stories podcast.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:05:54] That's true. I was. Was I your third or your fourth interview? Yeah, I'm not sure, but I was quite early.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] And you've come a long way because you're now willing to use your real name. Although we did.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:06:06] That's true.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] We did use it somewhat sparingly during the podcast on accident.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:06:12] Yeah. Actually we were still trying to be completely anonymous when we did your podcast because we were afraid that people might be uncomfortable with some of our economic ideas and we didn't want to embarrass our families if they were really uncomfortable with it, that kind of thing. But then we did that podcast, and I kept flipping during the podcast and my husband, Jay, instead of Roasted Tomatoes, that was his pen name. And a couple of weeks later, you edited almost every Jay out. But there were a couple that got past you. And a couple of weeks later, we were at church and a friend of ours walked up, slapped Jay on the back, and said, roasted Tomatoes, it's so good to see you. And we both just kind of had heart attacks right there in front of my class of sunbeams.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] My apologies.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:07:02] We've been exposed.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] My apologies.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:07:05] No, no, actually, it was great. No, it was wonderful. Because then we realized that there was really no reason for us to be anonymous, at least in the ward that we lived in, which was in the People's Republic of Berkeley. Everyone was perfectly comfortable with us.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Well, for those of you who haven't listened, go back to one of the early episodes of Mormon Stories and you can hear all about Taryn's story. It still remains one of the most listened to of my episodes. At least four or five thousand people have downloaded it.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] It's a really good one. Anyway, without any further ado, today we are going to talk about women's issues in the LDS Church. And for those of you who don't follow Mormon Stories, Podcast. And we're gonna have to do a really good job of talking as though none of you do, because we can't make that assumption.

Reviewing the Mormon Women Podcast Series

John Dehlin [00:07:50] I began a multi part series on women in the church a few weeks back, and I've done several episodes now. My first episode was an introduction. My second episode was an interview with the professor on the three waves of feminism, as we called it, sort of just tracing feminism throughout the United States. And then we did three hours with Claudia Bushman. One hour was a dear Friend Was a Friend, Melissa Inouye. And then I did two hours with Claudia myself. But today we're just going to talk about Rosalind and Taryn's reactions to this series. Where we got it right, where we got it wrong, where they're happy, where they're angry, and what their reflections are. So, without any further ado, ladies, did either of you get a chance to listen to the introductory episode?

Rosalynde Welch [00:08:44] Yes, I did, John.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] All right, let's have Rosalind start if she has any thoughts, and then we'll let Taryn take a stab. Sure.

Rosalynde Welch [00:08:52] I thought it was very interesting, John. I was struck right off the bat by the way that your introduction sort of took the form of a kind of religious narrative. It sort of became a Story of sin and redemption. Right. You expressed deep penitence and regret that you had hitherto failed to include an episode specifically about women and sort of mention your. Your turning point where your sin was brought to your attention. And then you talk about this series of podcasts in pretty specific terms as a sort of act of restitution and penitence. And, you know, it's interesting the ways that our religious thought and our religious lives kind of become implicated with our professional lives and our intellectual lives as well.

Rosalynde Welch [00:09:41] But I was really quite struck by that. And it was something that you returned to on several occasions in your conversations later with Serafine and with Claudia Bushman. I can tell that this entire series of Mormon stories, and in particular this series of podcasts on women, comes from a very good corner of your heart. And you can sense the good faith and the goodwill in your voice and in your words as well. I wonder, though, when we start to talk about these issues in terms. In moral terms, right, where sort of women's history becomes moralized so that paying attention to it is sort of a good deed, in a way, and failing to pay attention to it is something, not just an omission or an error, but actually a kind of sin for which we ought to feel ashamed and make restitution.

Rosalynde Welch [00:10:37] I wonder whether in some ways, that can maybe not lend itself to the clearest and most concise forms of analysis. That's something perhaps you can respond to at a later time. In any case, I was really quite struck by it. I also, as I was listening to the way you set up this series of podcasts, you sort of set it up by talking about the United States and. And you sort of refer to the sort of heroic figures and the heroic events that we've all learned were the foundation of our great nation. Perhaps some of us, even at church today, heard some references to that.

Rosalynde Welch [00:11:24] And then you sort of undercut that by pointing out that for, you know, 60 years or however many years, women had lacked the right to vote, so that underneath the sort of glorious and noble foundations of our nation lies this sort of deep violence and deep kind of moral lack.

Rosalynde Welch [00:11:51] And then from that, as history unfolds, we build and move toward a more enlightened and more progressive state. Now, I think this is one kind of master narrative that people use to understand history, starting from sort of, oops, I feel like I'm.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] You're good.

Rosalynde Welch [00:12:10] I feel like I'm good. Okay. Starting from a sort of heroic. I'm sorry. Starting from a sort of depraved state and then progressing forward to a more enlightened state. There's another way that people look at history and you make some reference to this as well. And that's starting at the Golden Age, and then sort of as history progresses, we see a decline. This is sort of the Hesiod model of history, where we start with the Golden Age and then we move down through the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, and finally to the Iron Age, which is a fallen and kind of depraved age. And in some ways, this kind of master narrative is what we often hear when we talk about women's history in the church.

Rosalynde Welch [00:12:54] We sometimes talk about sort of the charismatic and enthusiastic spiritual gifts that the Relief Society featured so prominently, the kind of autonomy that the Relief Society enjoyed. And then we look with regret on things like correlation and the ways in which spiritual expressions have been subdued, particularly among women.

Rosalynde Welch [00:13:17] So I thought it was very interesting to see both of these kinds of ways of looking at history were at work at the same time in your introduction to the podcast and also in your conversations with both Serafine and Claudia Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Very good. I just want you to know, Rosalind, I appreciate your perspective and your candor. It's very welcomed because I'm very new to this whole dialogue and conversation. I feel, and I'm going to use religious terms again, I really do feel almost unworthy to be covering it because my lack of knowledge is so great. But before I interject myself and try and respond, I would love to just give Serenity Valley a chance. Or Taryn. I'd love to give Taren.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:14:03] Either one is fine.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Taran, why don't you jump in and give your own thoughts and. Or a response to what Rosalind said, whether you see it differently or. Or felt the same thing.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:14:15] Well, I think actually that a few of the things Rosalind said were really, well, everything she said was really interesting, but a few of them were things that I really agreed with. I did think while I was listening to the interviews, that that tension between the progression narration and that Golden Age decline kind of story was really interesting, at least because I've seen it so much as I've become involved in feminism as an intellectual movement. Everyone, everyone who writes about it, we tend to glorify this past glory. Well, that sounds idiotic. We tend to glorify this past wonderful time when women were getting blessings and women had a real voice in the church because they ran the Relief Society with no input from men in the church, so on and so forth.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:15:02] But at the same time, we're all aware of things like a history of polygamy that a lot of people are very uncomfortable with, especially when they're thinking about women's rights and feminist history, because it's very complex. There are arguments that have been made in the past about polygamy as a feminist thing, but still there's all this complexity. And I've seen this over and over, and it was just really remarkable the way it played out in those interviews. I think she's right because it points to a really serious divide in our own thinking about women's status in the church and about what we want for women in the church.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:15:39] We don't know whether we want to go backload of forward. We don't know whether we want to make things into what they were at one point when women had limited status and power, but there was power, or whether we want to create something entirely new. And that's a difficult issue that we really need to talk about as a community and try to decide, try to find some consensus on. But I have to say, though, that as far as viewing this as a moral narrative goes, I think it's a really good idea.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:16:09] I think that issues of equality and issues of bias and discrimination in our church or really in any other cultural context are moral issues. I think that as a Mormon, I have to say that I have to see it that way. And I'm not sure that given.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:16:29] Given the religious utopia that we're really trying to create as members of the church, at least within our own small communities, that we can get anywhere. If we don't view this as a moral narrative, if we don't view this as this is right, that was wrong. Because. What point is there in having this religious conversation if it's not about morality? It didn't sound.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Yeah. Rosalind, let me just ask you real quick. Do you not see it as unfortunate or even violent that women weren't able to vote for so many years? Or do you not see that as a big deal?

Rosalynde Welch [00:17:12] No, of course not. Let me put it on the record. I am definitely in favor of a woman's right to vote. I don't think that we need to take the moral perspective out of our understanding of history entirely.

Rosalynde Welch [00:17:28] And of course, I agree with you, Taryn, that there is a very important moral and ethical aspect to the ways that we treat different groups of people and that institutions and individuals should be accountable for that. I guess what I was referring to more specifically was the idea that.

Rosalynde Welch [00:17:47] The idea that blogging or podcasting, sort of the kind of enterprise that we're engaged in here is one in which the stakes are so very, very high. It seems to me that sometimes there can be a little bit.

Rosalynde Welch [00:18:04] It seems to me that sometimes our view of its importance can get a little. Just a little inflated. A little bit of sort of the savior complex might make its way in. And I think that tends to lead to lower quality and less interesting blogging. So from my perspective, I don't think it's.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Okay, wait, let her finish, Taryn, and then we'll jump to you. Go ahead, keep going.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:18:30] I'm very sorry. I apologize, Rosalind. I didn't mean to interrupt.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] No, it's good. Keep going, Rosalind. Keep going, Keep going.

Rosalynde Welch [00:18:35] That's just fine. I enjoy the give and take. But, yeah, from my perspective, when we're talking about things like the accounts that we make of history, as opposed to the actions and the events that comprise history themselves, of course that's not a completely stark divide, but what we're disagreeing about are accounts of history rather than sort of the reality of history itself, which in a very real sense is inaccessible to us all. All we have are the ways that we talk about it. And I think that when we inject sort of matters of righteousness and evilness at the very center and at the very beginning, from the very outset, I think that we may not always end up with the clearest analysis.

Rosalynde Welch [00:19:25] Once we have a clear analysis, then I think perhaps those questions of rightness and wrongness, of penitence and. And shame maybe can come to the fore. But in any case, John, I don't think that you need to feel that you need to make restitution or repentance for not having had a podcast on women's issues. I'm glad you're doing it. I think it's a valuable and useful thing. But I hereby offer you absolutely my status as an elders woman.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Can I pay you indulgences?

Rosalynde Welch [00:19:58] Oh, yes, yes. PayPal is accepted.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] All right, Taryn, go for it.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:20:04] Okay. Well, first of all, before I go on and talk about my, you know, my reactions to my own initial reactions to those first few podcasts, I do have to say that I don't think that. I don't think that we can analyze and then think about the morality of our own history. I think that if we do that in this case, then we risk missing a point. I think that the reason that you felt bad when you realized what you've done is that you were leaving out a very important conversation. Mormon Stories is a wonderful program and it's very, very useful for a lot of people.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:20:42] And I was really relieved when you said that you felt embarrassed about it, because I really respect you. And stories about women. And stories about women feminism had been a glaring omission from a program that I really, really respected.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:20:59] And so I have to say that I'm not surprised that you felt that it was a moral issue. And I think it was entirely appropriate. I think that one of the things that's so great about what you did when you recorded that episode and you said, I feel really bad about this, was that you showed people that it was an important thing that they could or they should feel bad about if they were doing that kind of thing, if they were ignoring really pressing issues that affect the lives of everyone in our church, and especially the church's women.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:21:34] So I have to say, I don't think we can really remove the morality from it. I don't think that this is an abstract thing. I think we need to keep our own history and the way we understand it very close to our hearts, because the church is a religious endeavor. It's a moral endeavor.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:21:52] It just seems appropriate to me. On the other hand, I do understand what Rosalind is saying, and I think that if you were an academic historian, I might feel differently about that. You know what I mean? I did really, really enjoy the first podcast, just because it was fun to hear about kind of a journey of discovery that you were going on with this stuff. I come from a background that leaves me really, really unfamiliar with what people are aware of and aren't aware of what the popular media teaches us about American history as it regards women.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:22:26] And it was a lot of fun hearing what you were discovering. It was a little bit upsetting for me because I know that you are someone who really cares about people. You pay attention to people's stories, and you didn't have very much information, which means to me that there's not very much information out there. There's not very much information being circulated and upsetting, because I think you would have picked it up if it had been available easily.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:22:54] So that was a bit of a shock to me. I think the Seraphine interview was interesting as well. It was partly in part because of the tensions I heard between you and Serafine when you were trying to manage the interview.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:23:13] It was interesting because you were talking to Serafin, you were asking her for information, and at the same time, you were trying to guide the interview. But it was a little bit awkward because you were a man trying to guide an Interview with a woman who was giving you a rundown of feminist history in the United States.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:23:29] And I thought that there was some tension there in the roles, if that makes sense. You didn't want to cut her off, she didn't want you to cut her off. But there were some objectives that you had for the interview. And given the subtext, it was just really interesting. It was a lot of fun, I thought, actually.

Discussing the Three Waves of Feminism

John Dehlin [00:23:50] Rosalind, what were your thoughts on the three waves of feminism?

Rosalynde Welch [00:23:56] I also enjoyed listening to that very much.

Guest [00:23:59] I

Rosalynde Welch [00:24:01] have been trained in feminism, both in college and in graduate school. I've read all the major feminist theorists and read quite a bit of feminist history. My dissertation focused on women and brought up feminist issues. And yet I have not been, in the last several years, really plugged into the kind of women's studies brand of feminism that Serafin was.

Rosalynde Welch [00:24:27] Was imparting in that episode. In particular, since I've been out of school now for several years, I hadn't really encountered, and I hadn't sought out the sort of women's studies version of what third wave feminism has done for us and how it relates to second wave. I, of course, am familiar with third wave feminism and have my own thoughts on it, but I hadn't heard kind of the party line in the way that Serafin presented it. It was interesting. I do have to say that I disagreed with some of the ways that Serafin characterized the various waves.

Rosalynde Welch [00:25:04] And probably a point by point rebuttal wouldn't be very interesting podcasting. So I'll spare you some of that. What really struck me, though, was again, the ways in which we make use of our history, just as we saw in. As we talked about in your introduction, is you sort of read history in the ways that served your own rhetorical purposes.

Rosalynde Welch [00:25:30] In that introduction, I think Seraphine, of course, was doing the same thing as we all do. In particular, I was struck by the ways that she saw all three waves of feminism, the first, the second, and the third, as sort of germinating in the kind of personal satisfaction of work and life, the work, life, balance kind of arm of feminism that I sometimes call the New York Times version of feminism, because it seems to dominate in the New York Times questions of how a woman can find satisfaction raising a family, raising her children, and pursuing something else.

Rosalynde Welch [00:26:13] You know, she talks about how for Elizabeth Cady Stanton, in her own personal history, moving back to Seneca Falls, raising her children, and, you know, finding that she needed something more. And so from this kind of sense of needing to find personal realization springs the first wave of feminism. And once again, in the second wave of feminism, again, she. She sort of has this narrative where women during World War II had experienced kind of the stimulation of the workplace and then came home in the 50s. And then it was sort of in that sort of domestic oppression of the 1950s that women, again, Betty Friedan and others, began to feel that there was something more in life, something more than being stuck in the kitchen raising kids.

Rosalynde Welch [00:27:04] And so then from this beginning of once again germinated the second, and I would say most formative wave, most culturally formative wave of feminism. And then once again, in third wave feminism, it seemed to be from her perspective, mostly about allowing women choice, once again, respecting women's choices whether they choose to work or whether they choose to say to him with their children, again, that in sort of sanctifying personal choice, we allow women to find self actualization, self realization, and pursue personal satisfaction. And that that sort of is the font of all these different waves of feminism. Now, I have to admit I'm a little skeptical of that just because I don't think that the idea of sort of personal satisfaction and sort of self realization that is really important to us now was something that motivated women, particularly around the turn of the century in first wave feminism.

Rosalynde Welch [00:28:13] And I'm even slightly skeptical, the feminine mystique aside, that that's really sort of the source of second wave feminism. However, I think it's extremely telling that that is the way that Serafine presented the origins, the foundational myths, if you will, of feminism. And I think it speaks to how important that issue is to women.

Rosalynde Welch [00:28:38] Now we have the luxury, I guess, of being very concerned about finding personal satisfaction and finding that balance between our families and our professional lives. And this is the issue that really kind of obsesses feminism and women generally.

Rosalynde Welch [00:29:01] If you look on the blogs, for example, it's almost always those threads that bring up these issues and engage them in some way that will just catch on fire and will bring to the surface a lot of emotion and a lot of passion. So I thought it was both informative and also it's very revealing for what our priorities are now here at the beginning of the 21st century, as we look back on a century of feminism.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Hey, Taryn, I'm going to bring you in just a second. But Rosalind, I'm going to just follow up with a couple real quick questions. I appreciate that perspective. I can totally see where you're coming from, that basically people sort of take the things that they care about now and Project them back into everyone's motives in the past. I think that's absolutely true that people do that. But let me just ask you, just. Just to get you on the record, do you embrace the term feminism or the title feminist for yourself? And if you were to offer an alternative interpretation of motives for the three waves, do you have a personal interpretation that you feel would be more accurate?

Rosalynde Welch [00:30:13] Well, for the first question first, I'm really going to infuriate you, John, and I'm just going to say it's not an important question to me. It really is not. There have been times in my life when I was in college, even when I was in high school, I heard Seraphine sort of give her self description of feeling that she being afraid of feminists and then sort of being converted to feminism.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:30:37] In.

Rosalynde Welch [00:30:37] In college I had the opposite experience. I always identified with feminism, didn't feel any shame in doing so, even in high school. In college, I found feminist theory and my literary theory classes in which I encountered it to be a very galvanizing and invigorating kind of introduction to myself as an adult. So for that reason, I have a lot of affection for and and respect for feminists and the feminist movement as I've aged. I have simply found that it is not an important question to me anymore whether or not I am a feminist. I think I'm really put off by the kind of evangelism for feminism that I sensed a little bit in Serafin.

Rosalynde Welch [00:31:21] Although she's such a likable person, it doesn't grade at all. I enjoyed listening to her very much. But when people start trying to convince me that, no, you really are a feminist, then the contrarian me comes out and says, no, I actually really am not. But in fact, it's not an important question to me.

Rosalynde Welch [00:31:40] I have found that as I have matured into an adult, I am sort of perpetually interested in questions of women's lives, women's experiences. I'm very interested in women's history and women's writing, women's textuality. I care a lot about understanding female nature, understanding children, what it means to be a mother. These are the interests that capture my mind personally.

Rosalynde Welch [00:32:08] In that sense, I suppose I am a feminist. I am not an activist by nature. I have very little interest in the sort of activism of feminism. However, I have a lot of interest in academic feminism and women's history, things like that.

Rosalynde Welch [00:32:29] So, yeah, there it is. If it will help to smooth the way for an interesting conversation, I happily identify as a feminist. However, if it will Help smooth the way for an interesting conversation.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:32:40] I will.

Rosalynde Welch [00:32:41] Happily. I'm not attached to the label at all.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Just for the record, I'm not infuriated in the slightest.

Rosalynde Welch [00:32:47] All right, now your second question was whether or not I had another alternative interpretation to offer. And the truth is that I do not. I am not an expert in US History and in feminism in the United States. History. As I said, my primary area of research is early modern England. However, my experience, sort of reading texts that are removed from us historically is that it's very easy, in fact, to project our own concerns backwards, and that our deepest concerns now really are quite foreign from what people in other times and other places experienced. So that is the reason behind my skepticism. But I sadly do not have another introduction to.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] So you kind of like to reserve judgment on motives in the past?

Rosalynde Welch [00:33:47] Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, I mean, if you're lucky enough to. To come across a wonderful set of documents that can give you insight into the personal motivations, then. Wonderful. Then I think we can make an informed judgment. Barring that, I don't think we can make assumptions. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Okay. Great. All right, well, Taryn, it's your turn. Please. What would you like me to do? You have any response to anything Rosalind said and any other reflections on the Serafin interview?

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:34:23] Well, I do have to say that I think that it's actually defensible to say that this search for greater meaning or for more purpose was something that may well have sparked early feminism and modern feminism. The simple truth is that the people who started the women's suffrage movement, they weren't.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:34:45] They weren't working class women who were in the factories 16 hours a day, 18 hours a day. They weren't very, very wealthy women who were busy with their husband's businesses, with the social lives that were necessary to maintain those businesses. They were middle class women, upper middle class women, who found themselves getting involved in social issues in the earlier part of the century, the 1800s, because they had time on their hands. Their husbands had incomes that suddenly allowed people who had always expected to do most of their own housekeeping to hire servants. And suddenly they found themselves with all of this free time on their hands.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:35:25] The first thing they did was that they began to organize little salons, little groups that they met in to keep busy. And the next thing they did was start to address social issues. The reform movements of the 1800s, the progressive movements, the temperance movement, the abolitionist movement, the suffrage movement, these things all came out of all of the human hands. And I can't actually point it out of the top of my head. But I do remember having read personal accounts where people talked about how they found themselves sitting and thinking that life had to be more fulfilling or could be more fulfilling. The important thing to remember is that that's a very class bound thing that today I think it's a defensible hypothesis, what Serafim said and I actually think it's well supported.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:36:14] But while I do think that, I think it's also important to say that what Rosalind said is very true. It's hard to gift people's motives. It's hard to. It's very hard to guess your own motives when you're interpreting documents, people's journals, when you're reading about the past. So with reservations. I think Sarafine actually had some pretty defensible ideas.

Rosalynde Welch [00:36:40] Taryn, if I may, looking back and from what I've read, it seems to me that when you. You're exactly right and this is a really important point that women were involved in a very sort of class based way in all these sorts of sort of voluntary organizations and groups. I've heard it referred to as kind of like civic housekeeping and I love that term, really important kinds of work. But it seems to me that mostly they talked about those activities in terms of duty, in terms of obligation, a sort of noblesse oblige. Often they often found justification, religious justification for doing good works. Terms very different from the way that we now talk about what it means to have some me time and to use your mind and not have your mind turn to mommy mush or whatever. Do you think that that's right?

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:37:43] What do you think about that? Here's the thing that's actually a complicated question because on the one hand a lot of the public documents and a lot of the early public speeches that I've read, I'm not an expert in that part of American history. But from what I've read, a lot of public statements people made use that kind of language. Here we are, it's the responsible, the socially responsible thing for us to do. We are the moral conscience of our nation because we are the mothers of our nation. Da da da da da. But in their journals, people like Katy Satan, they actually talked about other issues.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:38:21] They did talk about things like at some, I guess some basic level self actualization about women having more fulfilling lives. And I think it's important to remember that sometimes people present themselves publicly in a way that's strategic, in a way that will help them to gain influence if they are, for instance, members of an oppressed class who want to change that by saying, we are doing this not for ourselves, we want the vote not so that we can have a voice, but so that we can ensure that men don't, in their immorality and drunkenness, screw things up.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:39:03] That's a way of trying to claim power where you have none of. And from what I've seen, from what I've read, it's certainly not the only motivation people had. I don't doubt that there were plenty of people, especially early in the temperance and abolition movement, who were involved solely for the reasons that you discuss.

Taryn Nelson-Seawright [00:39:22] But as time went on, and especially as the women's movement developed, that changed. And there were plenty of people who stayed involved for those reasons. But there's plenty of evidence, from what I've seen, that that wasn't universally the case.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] Interesting. Now, I'm just going to throw a question real quick at Rosalind before we move on to Claudia. But, you know, if you think about the plight of the blacks in the United States over the past several hundred years, I think it's reasonable for those who are black or African American to say, yeah, I'm angry about how my ancestors were treated. We were made slaves.

Did Feminism Make Women Happier?

John Dehlin [00:40:01] We couldn't vote. You know, many of us couldn't vote until the 1970s. And, you know, we got a bad rap and we're angry about it. And, you know, but we're going to figure out what we can do to go forward. And so you can say you could probably project into the past that. And I've heard people try and do this, that slaves weren't that upset on the plantation, that actually they had a better lot than.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Than those who weren't slaves because they got fed regularly, blah, blah, blah. But I think it's pretty fair to say that they were mistreated overall and have cause to look back on history with. With some regret or anger.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Rosalind, what I don't hear even a hint of from you, and it's just how, probably how I'm listening, but I don't. I don't get a sense that you feel like. Like there was injustice or, or mistreatment for women in the 19th, 17th and 18th and 19th and 20th centuries. Am I mishearing you or is this just something you haven't gotten to yet?

Rosalynde Welch [00:41:07] Yeah, I think you're mishearing me. I don't think I've really commented on that at all. John, for the record, let me put it out there. As I said before, I am, you know, yes, I'm Very glad. I'm very grateful for the fact that women can now vote.

Rosalynde Welch [00:41:27] I am just as horrified as anybody at, you know, and believe me, as a student of early modern England, I'm well versed in what it meant for a woman to live without the sort of structural protections that they now enjoy.

Rosalynde Welch [00:41:45] For that, I give a lot of credit to first and second wave feminism in a lot of ways. I have a lot of respect, in fact, for those good old hard line second wavers. Give me Gloria Steinem. Give me even Linda Hirschman, who's sort of been active recently. I kind of love them for their sort of stubborn adherence to a principle.

Rosalynde Welch [00:42:10] I sometimes roll my eyes a little bit at what I perceive as kind of the mushiness of third wave feminism. So, yes, I have deep appreciation and deep affection for feminists and feminism, and I know that I owe many good things in my life to their efforts. However, I think it's very difficult to compare subjective happiness over time. I don't think we really can do that, and I think it may be misguided to try. So are women happier now because of feminism?

Rosalynde Welch [00:42:45] That's a very difficult question to answer. Are they materially better off? Yes, probably in many ways. Now, at the same time, I feel that feminists oftentimes have a real hesitance. I noticed, for example, that Seraphine never even mentioned abortion.

Rosalynde Welch [00:43:01] How can you talk about second wave feminism and not mention abortion? And sort of the galvanizing and central issue that that was and sort of feminism's embrace of the sexual revolution of the 1960s and the ways that that has sort of ramified throughout our culture in these days. There is sort of secondary collateral cultural change that occurs when you work hard to disrupt basic social institutions, as they very clearly were attempting to do. I think they were attempting to do so in perfectly justified adherence to their foundational principles.

Rosalynde Welch [00:43:41] But the fact is that a lot of other things have happened as well. And now we find ourselves in situations where there may be sort of large scale cultural effects that now come back around to kind of nip at our heels, even while we as individual women are enjoying the freedom and the protection and the many choices that have been secured for us. There can be other sort of changes that happen in cultures when rituals and institutions are dismantled, and those can have negative effects. And sometimes those can come back around and can detract in some ways from the subjective happiness of women in the present day.

Rosalynde Welch [00:44:27] So for that reason, I think it's an extremely difficult question to ask. Are women happier now than they Were before. I don't know how to answer that question. Are we materially better off? Yes. Yes, without a doubt, we are. And for that I give again a lot of credit and a lot of gratitude to those women who worked hard to make these changes. I also am not afraid, however, to criticize where I think they went wrong, even sometimes disastrous.

Guest [00:44:57] It may not be on the mountain height or over the stormy sea it may not be at the battle's front My Lord would have need of me but if by a still small voice he could calls to pass that I do not know I'll answer, dear Lord, with my hand in thine I'll go where you want me to go I'll go where you want me to go, dear Lord over mountain or plain or sea I'll say what you want me to say Dear Lord I'll be what you want me to be Perhaps today there are loving words which Jesus would have me speak There may be now in the paths of sin Some wondrous whom I should see O Savior, Thou wilt be my guide Though dark and rugged away My voice shall echo the message sweet I'll say what you want me to say I'll go where you want me to go, dear Lord over mountain or plain or sea I'll sail say what you want me to say, dear Lord I'll be what you want me to be there's surely somewhere A lowly place In a service field so wide Where I may labor through life's short day For Jesus the the crucified so trusting my all to thy tender care and knowing thou lovest me I'll do thy will with a heart sincere I'll be what you want me to be I'll go where you want me to go, dear Lord oh Over mountain or plain or sea I'll say what you want me to say, dear Lord I'll be what you want me to be I'll be what you want me to be I'll be what you want me to be.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] This wonderful music has been provided by clayton and sky pixton. To check out more, go to claytonpixton.com that's C-L-A-Y-T-O-N pixton P-I-X t o-n.com or skypixton.com S-K-Y-E-P-I-X-T-O-N.com or check us out on the mormon matters.org website to get the links. Thanks again.

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