Introduction and Overview of Mormon Publishing

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 40

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories Podcast depends entirely upon the voluntary contributions of you its listeners to keep Mormon Stories alive. Please consider donating today@mormonstories.org to make a contribution to Mormon Stories. Just click on the Make a Donation button at the top right of the MormonStories.org website.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Also, please help us promote Mormon stories via Digg.com and Sustained.org for all this and more. Please check out MormonStories.org and thank you for listening. Thank you for joining Mormon Stories Podcast what's it actually like to try to publish a Mormon themed book as an author? How many copies are you likely to sell and how much money do you stand to make?

John Dehlin [00:01:04] And how do Mormon authors view the implications of the recent acquisition of Siegel Book and Tapes and Covenant Communications by Deseret Book? As we continue Part three in our series on this acquisition, we interview Christopher bigelow, president of zarahemlabooks.com and author of multiple Mormon themed books, including Mormonism for Dummies and the Mormon Tabernacle Inquirer. Also, while this episode covers Christopher's journey as an author of Mormon themed books, check out the blog entry for this interview on MormonStories.org for an extended discussion, including more on Christopher's early years and his time as a writer for Ensign magazine. Your story today on Mormon Stories Podcast.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Let's turn a bit and talk about

John Dehlin [00:02:03] when you first decided you wanted to be an author and to write a book.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] When was that, and what was it

John Dehlin [00:02:10] like to start down that journey?

Christopher Bigelow [00:02:13] Okay, well, like I said, the seed was planted back at Emerson College when I was in James Carroll's fiction writing class. Strangely enough, I went to BYU to emphasize creative writing, but it didn't turn out that I did a whole lot with fiction during my graduate degree. I mean, I did do a thesis, it was a novella, but I wouldn't say it went all that well trying to write fiction at byu.

Christopher Bigelow [00:02:45] But then it's kind of funny. After I got out of grad school, I wasn't 100% satisfied with being a magazine editor at the Ensign, and so I was looking for other projects that I could do and somehow I came across the idea to do a a memoir of my missionary experience in Australia. In Australia.

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:12] The way that started was I went back to my missionary journals and I thought I might want to type those up. So I started typing them up and then I thought, hey, no one's I don't think anyone's ever told what's really a very human, significant experience, the Mormon Mission. No one's ever Dramatized that certainly for a national audience.

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:39] There's been some writing along those lines within the faith. I don't know of any book length or many book length accounts, but I thought it was something that hadn't been done in a way that a national audience could actually get something out of.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Was this pre God's army or post God's Army?

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:57] This was. I believe this was pre God's army when it started. And so I actually, I wrote some sample chapters and an outline and I wrote a one page query letter. That's how you begin to approach agents in the national market is you write a one page, really compelling query letter that describes your product, your project, and tries to get them to request to see more. So I came up with a killer query letter on this missionary memoir project. And I sent it out to a lot of agents and I had half a dozen call me.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:04:37] I got really excited. I thought I was really onto something. And when I mailed them more, they didn't like it. And, you know, I'll just say, I think it's a really hard thing for a writer who's coming out of the Mormon tradition. If you want to tell a Mormon story to a national audience, I think it's really hard to get a national publisher to go along with it if it shows that you're still sort of faithful or favorable toward Mormonism at all.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] They only want the Martha Becks of the world.

Christopher Bigelow [00:05:11] They want the disaffected. I had some agents ask me point blank, you know, now you're not still a practicing Mormon, are you? And, you know, I can understand part of it. They don't want to become a tool for, you know, Mormon propaganda.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:05:26] Because we are a proselyting faith. But, you know, that's a tough. That's a tough wall to crack. And I don't know how far we'll get. I hope we make more progress.

Writing Mormons for Dummies and Working with Publishers

John Dehlin [00:05:38] So you went for the national publishers with your first book?

Christopher Bigelow [00:05:44] Yes. Yeah, more or less. And I did get an agent. A woman in Massachusetts, based in Massachusetts, had sold some books and was a good agent. And she loved the project that I showed her. And she showed it around and she got a lot of good readings. And the people at.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Do you have to pay an agent?

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:07] No, no. They keep a percentage of any royalties that you earn later.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:14] 15% is usually what they get.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:18] And she almost got me a contract. In fact, Harper San Francisco is part of Harper Collins. Harper San Francisco. I think they are actually based out in San Francisco and they do the religious Publishing and they were on board to do the book and it got killed in New York with the New York home office.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Was that heartbreaking?

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:41] Oh, yeah, it was a close call because I thought we were in.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] And had you written the book?

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:47] No, I just had it in the proposal phase still. It was several sample chapters, but no, the whole book wasn't written. So that's one good thing. Yeah, but, yeah, so that was a heartbreaker. But the thing that came out of that was that my agent, Linda Raghar, was also the agent for Jana Reese, who is an editor at Publishers Weekly. Latter Day Saint Convert works at Publishers Weekly and writes some of her own books. And someone had asked Jana to do Mormonism for Dummies. Well, the publisher of the Dummies books had asked her to do it and she. She didn't feel like she could take it on by herself. But then Linda, our mutual agent, connected us up.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:07:39] So that was a wonderful thing for me and really fun project to work on.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] And when did you start working on that?

Christopher Bigelow [00:07:46] Let's see, it came out in 05 and so we really only had about six months of writing time.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Was that Jana's idea

Christopher Bigelow [00:07:56] to do Mormonism for Dummies?

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Did she pitch it?

Christopher Bigelow [00:07:59] Yeah, I think that she knew an editor at Wiley, the publisher, and I don't remember exactly how it came about, but just in a conversation with someone, I think someone said to her, you ought to do Mormonism for Dummies. I think the Wiley editor said that or somebody said that to her. So, yeah, I mean, the idea came through her, but I think she thought it was kind of a kooky idea at first. A little bit maybe.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] And this is the one who's done like the. The Gospel According to Buffy, right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:08:29] Yes, yes, she did that. And she's done, I think, three or four additional books.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Like Gospel According to Simpsons or.

Christopher Bigelow [00:08:40] No, her Buffy book was a lot like the Gospel According to the Simpsons. Yeah, it was in the same genre of TV spirituality. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Right. And what's Jana like to work with?

Christopher Bigelow [00:08:54] I don't know that there are many, if any people I admire much as Jana. She's just a real level headed professional and yet really warm. And she was wonderful to work with. I hope I was okay to work with. I don't know if I'm quite as level headed and just basically intelligent too.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Well, she didn't say anything bad about you when I talked to her.

Christopher Bigelow [00:09:20] No, that collaboration went really well. And in fact, we've worked on another project since then that right now is in Container ships on the Pacific Ocean coming from China. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] Well, before we talk about that. So when an agent sells a deal to some publisher, they usually give some type of advance. Is that how it works?

Christopher Bigelow [00:09:43] Yes. They try to get as large of an advance as possible, not only just because the cash is nice, but because that commits the publisher to doing more promotion and committing more resources to the book.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] And Wiley's a pretty big publisher, right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:00] Yeah, Wiley's big. They own a lot of imprints and have their arms in a lot of areas. And they gave. I don't know what they were expecting on sales for Mormonism for Dummies. I think they offered us, like, $10,000 of an advance to start with, and then our agent was able to get them to go up to 15,000, which really isn't a lot of money when you're dividing.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] No.

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:27] Well, first the agent takes 15%, and then you divide it in two.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:32] And I don't. You know, they never did tell us. We hope your book sells X number of copies. The book has sold. Last I heard, it had sold 7,000 copies.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Huh. I would have thought more. I would have thought any Dummies book would sell in the 50s at least.

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:52] Okay, well, here's something. The Mormonism for Catholicism. Okay, sorry, I'm getting confused.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Mormonism for Catholicism.

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:01] I think it was called Catholicism for Dummies or Catholics for Dummies. Anyway, the Catholic version.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] Yes.

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:10] I believe that sold well over 100,000, maybe over 200,000.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:15] I mean, and there are more Catholics in the world, and maybe they need a book like that more than we do. I don't know how well a lot of Catholics know their faith.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Oh. Oh.

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:27] But, you know, we've heard some good things, though. You're familiar with the HBO Big Love show about the Utah polygamists?

John Dehlin [00:11:36] Yes.

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:38] Well, we heard that the producers of Big Love give Mormonism for Dummies to each. You know, they bring in guest directors to do different episodes, and it's required reading. One of the books that's required reading is Mormonism for Dummies. That's great for the directors. And then on the other end of the spectrum, I have to tell you, is that recently at a group of religious news writers, they held a convention here in Salt Lake with religion journalists coming in from around the country. And the LDS Church public affairs representatives were also in attendance. And what were they handing out? Mormonism for Dummies.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Now, did you vet it. Did you vet a manuscript through the church to make sure they'd feel good about It.

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:29] We contacted the church early on to see if they would help us with some photos and images. And they went and talked, I believe, to a general authority and he did not like the title. He thought the title was disrespectful. And I don't know if that means he wasn't familiar with the whole series and the brand.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:50] I think probably that's the case. Okay, so they shot us down. But we did go to the public affairs department as journalists and they were very helpful giving us certain statistics and things that they would give to any, you know, journalists.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:09] But we did not have people there review the manuscript or anything. You know who reviewed our manuscript was Jan Shipps.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Oh yeah, she's great.

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:20] The famous historian. Yes, she was. She was commissioned to be our technical editor. So she was the one that vetted

John Dehlin [00:13:27] the manuscript for our listeners. Jan Shipps is the foremost scholar on Mormon history in the world. She's also probably the most sought after person to comment on Mormonism. And she's actually not a Mormon herself, but she is a professor out of a university in Indiana. Right. Indianapolis, Purdue and somewhere else or whatever. What is it? Yeah, yeah, something like that. But she's great. Jen Shipps, look her up. Two Ps, right? Jen Shipps with two Ps.

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:58] She's got some good books out on Mormon history and a great story there.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] So you've sold about, you said six or seven thousand copies, huh?

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:07] Yeah, the royalty statements take so long to get to us that that might be as much of a year old in.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] So it could be double that, you mean?

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:18] Well, could be. I haven't received any additional royalty checks and so.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] But that's because you're. Because you're paying off your advance, is that right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:27] We have not earned out our advance.

Balancing Writing with a Full-Time Job

John Dehlin [00:14:30] And so were you working full time in another job while you were writing this book?

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:35] Yes, Somehow I got wrapped up in doing marketing communications in the multi level marketing industry down here in Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Okay. My respect for you just halved.

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:50] Hey, it's a living.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:53] No, I don't necessarily approve 100% of multi level marketing.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] I'm just giving you our time.

Christopher Bigelow [00:15:04] But, you know, it's a living. And if I could find a way, you know, if I could find a way to earn my living doing things more along the lines of writing and editing in the Mormon field, you know, I wouldn't want to go back to the inside. I'm not saying that, but I'd love to find another gig where I really felt passionate about it. But until then, you know, got to support the family. So. Yeah, I work a lot of evenings.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] So you worked. By day you were what, a marketing copywriter for. And do you say the company or would you rather not say the company right now?

Christopher Bigelow [00:15:43] I work at a company called New Waves. I don't mind saying that.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] And you are a PR guy.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Publicist.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] What?

Christopher Bigelow [00:15:50] I'm a marketing writer.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Okay. And wow, what an interesting industry. I'm sure you could. You know, I would recommend you write a book on that.

Christopher Bigelow [00:16:00] Frankly, you know, I would like to write some kind of like a murder mystery set as an mlm. Yeah, that's. That's in the pipeline. I gotta do something with this material.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah, I mean, just I hope you're taking. I hope you're taking copious journal entry notes.

Christopher Bigelow [00:16:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] And I hope your employer's not listening either. So. Wow. So by day you're working full time and by night you're writing a book and you're getting paid diddly squat for it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:16:32] Yeah, but at least it's something for the Mormonism. For the Mormonism for Dummies. Anyway, at least it was something. And some of the others. The new one that I worked on with Jana is called the Time chart History of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] Oh yeah, I think I saw that up on Zarahemla.

Christopher Bigelow [00:16:53] Yeah, it's put out by a publisher in England that puts out these beautiful illustrated. These timelines fold out 11ft, they're on cardstock. They're really quite beautiful. And again, they came to Jana first and asked her to put together one on Mormonism and she wasn't able to do that and she got me involved again, just like with the Dummies book. So we worked together on that. And like I said, it's in a container ship right now coming from China.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] So before we leave Mormons for Dummies. I've heard a lot of people really like the book. You know, how would you describe it? Is it on the candor scale?

John Dehlin [00:17:39] On the hard hitting scale?

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Is there anything you shy away from? Were there topics you guys just agreed you weren't going to cover? You know, does it talk about peep stones? Does it talk about polyandry? Does it talk about, you know, post manifesto denials? You know, how much does it get into the really. The stuff that really causes people problems?

Christopher Bigelow [00:17:59] Okay, we did, I think we did touch on something like post manifesto denials. We definitely gave a fairly thorough treatment of polygamy and I think a balanced one. I think we maybe could have Gone further, in some people's opinion. But I think we struck a nice balance between remaining, what's a good term, benignly objective, I think was the tone that we took. The hardest chapter, believe it or not, one of the hardest chapters was the chapter on the temple. Oh, yeah, you can imagine why. We worked on that one several times, and at one point it was a lot more detailed.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:18:44] I think I was the one that kind of had a guilty conscience about the level of detail in that chapter. And we pulled back. But, you know, we touched on. I think we handled the racial. Some of the racial stuff. We admitted some mistakes on behalf of the Mormon culture. I mean, we pointed out where there's been some flaws and some mistakes and where things have improved. And, you know, we touch on Mountain Meadows Massacre, and. And we've had some people. We have a section on same gender attraction, and some people have been quite satisfied with that. And other people don't think we went far enough in terms of calling the church to repentance, as it were. But that wasn't really our purpose, you know, So I think we managed even better than I hoped to, to strike a good balance between being frank and also still being palatable.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] Yeah. I mean, clearly, if the church is passing it out, you succeeded.

Christopher Bigelow [00:19:55] Right? Yeah. And we have sections in there that I'm sure they would have rather we left out, and I'm grateful that didn't ruin the whole book for them, as it were.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] Yeah. So that's, you know, it's moving the football down the field, if I can use a sports metaphor.

Christopher Bigelow [00:20:10] I think so.

Standout Sections and Reception of the Book

John Dehlin [00:20:11] So were there any paragraphs or sections that either caused a stir or that, you know, people really loved? Were there any standouts that come to mind at all?

Christopher Bigelow [00:20:24] Well, let's see. We had. Jana wrote a really, really entertaining section on the word of wisdom that a lot of people have mentioned to me that they particularly found refreshing. She had a funny discussion of, you know, what is definitely okay, what is maybe okay, not okay in terms of substances. And we played with, you know, decaf, and where does decaf fit? And that was a part that a lot of people said they enjoyed. And let's see, you know, in general, I would have to say that I thought we'd get more complaints.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:21:06] I thought because we have parts where we have some humor, I thought we'd get more complaints about, oh, you're making light of this or that, or you were too flippant about something. But we've really had hardly any complaints. In fact, I can't Think of any.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] How about compliments?

Christopher Bigelow [00:21:24] And we have had, you know, if you go on Amazon.com, we got a straight five star, excellent rating. Still. Wow. So we're getting good response on Amazon.com Word of mouth has been excellent. I would say that a lot of Latter Day Saints don't necessarily sit down and read the whole book, but people who have. Have felt really comfortable sharing it, you know, with relatives who aren't members of the church or we've had a lot of people tell us that they shared it with less active friends or family members. So people seem to be really comfortable with the book. More so than I thought. I thought we might even. I wouldn't have been surprised if my bishop would have called me in and said, brother, maybe you went a little far. Maybe you were a little too irreverent. But no, nothing like that.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] That's great. I'm still, you know, we have probably 5 million plus active members of the church. And you'd think, I mean, you'd think that, you know, at least 1%, I don't know, what would 1% be? 50,000. Yeah, you'd think that maybe 1% or even half of 1% would end up buying a book like that. Well, it's a tough. This is a tough market is what I'm saying.

Christopher Bigelow [00:22:51] I think it is a tough market. And you know, Deseret book did carry it and maybe does still.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:22:57] So it's not like we've been stonewalled by the main source of books in the LDS culture. But I'm not sure how to account for not. Not having more sales. I mean, of course, with. We wish we did. I hope it's a perennial, though, and stays in print for many years. I think most dummies books do stay in print.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] Yeah. They're not going to do a different edition, right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:24] No, they do if sales warrant it and there's enough material to update. They would do another edition, but they

John Dehlin [00:23:32] would always use you.

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:33] Yeah, I think they would just have us update the same book. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Okay. Well, cool. So from there you jumped in. What was the next book you jumped into?

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:46] Well, let's see. We did the timeline, the time chart that I mentioned, the big illustrated fold out thing.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:53] That took up a lot of time this past year. And then I actually had three other books that I did this last year too. I had a very busy, productive year.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Okay, wait, and is that in addition to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir? Because I want to get back to that. Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:24:08] The Mormon Tabernacle inquirer is one of them that I did last year.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] You mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] We talked about that earlier, but tell

John Dehlin [00:24:18] us about what it was like to try and shop that around to the different publishers.

Christopher Bigelow [00:24:23] Okay. Yeah. We did not start with Deseret Book. We decided not to waste their time or ours. I think where I started was Granite. Have you ever heard of granite?

John Dehlin [00:24:37] No, but that doesn't mean anything. I'm just now learning about this industry.

Christopher Bigelow [00:24:41] Okay. Granite is one of those second tier conservative LDS publishers. You've got Deseret and Covenant that are the two biggies. And then I would say Granite and Cedar Fort are probably the two companies that are kind of on the next tier. I think Cedar Fort is bigger than Granite, but Granite's pretty big and they do some books. So we actually one of the gentlemen that runs that company emailed us and seemed to enjoy our material. And I think he seriously considered doing the book. He was not forthcoming about his reasons for rejecting it, though. I can only guess that maybe they determined it was a little too edgy for their clientele, which is Deseret Book and all of the independent LDS bookstores that sort of follow the Deseret model. So that wasn't too surprising. And then Gibbs Smith. Are you familiar with Gibbs Smith at all?

John Dehlin [00:25:39] No.

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:40] He is a publisher up in Layton, Utah. He doesn't actually have a lot of Mormon market focus. He does have some, but he's a real, you know, he's got several employees and I think he has a real good publishing operation nationwide and then occasionally does some Mormon books. I don't know what his specialty is. I think it's art type books and some Western Americana type books. But he seriously considered doing the book. He's a big fan of the sugar beet, and I think his staff talked him out of it. They said, we don't think we could sell this very well.

John Dehlin [00:26:19] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:26:20] That was a close call.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] And you didn't try Covenant, is that right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:26:24] Did not try Covenant. We did try signature books.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:26:28] Which of course is the. Yeah, the main liberal Mormon publisher. And we got a note from them saying they didn't think it was commercial or something like that. So they didn't give us a lot of reason. Maybe it was too light minded for them, I don't know. Although they do publish some humor. Yeah, I was surprised they didn't want to do it, actually.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] But you were just maybe disappointed A little bit.

Christopher Bigelow [00:26:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Were you also a little bit concerned to. I mean, you know, is that a black mark to publish a signature for you or is There. Is there a reputation there that would be of concern? I mean, I'm friends with those guys, so I don't mean that in any disparaging way, but is there a stigma associated with publishing a book through them for an author?

Christopher Bigelow [00:27:11] To tell you the truth, I don't think I would hesitate to if I felt good about my book.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:27:16] I don't think I would hesitate to publish their Signature, however. Yeah, they've got a lot of baggage. I think it's kind of similar to Sunstone.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:27:26] They are in the book industry, the Mormon book industry. Kind of what Sunstone is as a Mormon magazine that is that those who have heard of them, which I don't think there are very many Mormons, mainstream Mormons, but those that have heard of it of Signature, I think probably think it's one of those semi apostate liberal type, you know, and that's some baggage that might not be fully deserved. But you know, they publish some things that are challenging and we just have our culture goes to black and white thinking so easily.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:04] And then a company like Signature gets caught up in the black side much more easily than I think is really fair. But it does happen, right?

John Dehlin [00:28:18] Yeah. And so there's not a lot in the middle ground, is there?

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:22] No, that's a frustrating thing. Something I'm trying to do something about myself actually.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] Yeah. And we'll talk about that. Definitely want to talk about that and your Zarahemla Books deal before we jump onto that. So you were able to convince a publisher to do it. And again, who is that?

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:46] Could you repeat the question?

John Dehlin [00:28:47] Who's the publisher for the Mormon Tabernacle Inquirer?

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:52] Kinchnay Press.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Okay, right. I mentioned that earlier. And who are your co authors?

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:57] Well, there's several of them. Some of the, some of the ones that have done the most writing would be Steven Carter, who is well known in Sunstone pages these days.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] He's my buddy Steve. A shout out to my buddy Steve.

Christopher Bigelow [00:29:12] Alright, we have Todd Robert Peterson who plays a major role. He's another Sunstone familiar and he just came out with his first book, a collection of short stories.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:29:28] Todd's the one who actually brought the website to life. Without Todd, it wouldn't have been the phenomenon that it was because of the website that he put together.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:29:37] So I want to acknowledge that probably our most popular writer overall is a woman named Amy Chamberlain. She lives over in Dubai now, of all places over in the Middle East. This is all email, so it doesn't matter where we live and Then there's several others, I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Paul Allen, Chris Juke. Some of these guys haven't done any writing or publishing except with us. And so it's been kind of a thrill for them to be involved with a real book and everything.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] And how many copies were printed in the initial printing?

Christopher Bigelow [00:30:19] She started out with 1,000, so not huge, but not too bad for a regional book. But she sold that out within the first four to six weeks and she's printed more than that again for a second run.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] Did they do an advance or do they. That's not the type of thing they do.

Christopher Bigelow [00:30:37] No, she didn't. A lot of small publishers don't do advances. I mean, she'll pay full royalties when the time is right, but no advance.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] Okay, so an author probably won't make much at all on a book like Mormon Tabernacle Inquirer, is that right? If it sells one or two thousand copies, it's more just you want to get a book out than it is you're going to make any money. Is that right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:31:05] Yeah. Okay. If you sell a thousand copies of a book that says it had a cover price of $15, a standard royalty rate would be 10%. So that's like $1.50 a book. So you'd get about $1,500. Okay, so that gives you an idea. So yeah, you need to sell and that's a pretty standard royalty rate. So yeah, to make a living as an author, you got to be well up into the tens of thousands to make a living at it.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Dang,

John Dehlin [00:31:37] that's brutal.

Christopher Bigelow [00:31:39] Yeah, it's a tough business. I don't think there's very many people that make a full time living writing books

John Dehlin [00:31:49] in Mormonism or just period, you

Christopher Bigelow [00:31:52] know, I bet there's not more than 100 or 200 people nationally that really make a full time living at it. I'm serious. And in Mormonism, I bet there's not more than five or ten at the most.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Right. So it's just tough to be an author.

Christopher Bigelow [00:32:07] Yeah, it's an avocation for most people. I don't want to say hobby, but it is something that you have to do in your spare time usually.

Book Deals, Projects, and Pushing the Envelope

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Do you have any idea how the

John Dehlin [00:32:19] book deals work with general authorities?

Christopher Bigelow [00:32:24] No, I don't know that I do. I don't know. I would think they would get paid royalties, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] And how many an average general 30 book sells.

Christopher Bigelow [00:32:35] I know that some of the real perennials like Miracle of Forgiveness.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] Oh yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:32:41] Mormon doctrine. Those have sold hundreds of thousands of copies. So the potential is there to sell two or three hundred thousand copies of a book in this market.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Yeah. Although I almost feel like those days are kind of. Those days are almost kind of gone.

Christopher Bigelow [00:32:58] Well, you know, Gordon B. Hinckley did an interesting thing and published a book with Random House. Do you remember that?

John Dehlin [00:33:07] Yeah, I do.

Christopher Bigelow [00:33:08] And I think that that was the last book that went over 100,000. For a general authority, I'm sure that maybe that was the last one. I don't know. Because the book industry is becoming. So it's becoming more niche oriented. I think there's fewer big books and lots more little books. Huh.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Okay, well, so tell us, you know, close out with some of the other projects, books you're working on before we actually do an analysis of a few things.

Christopher Bigelow [00:33:42] Okay, let's see. I have five books out. I think I've touched on four of them. Did we mention Conversations with Mormon Authors?

John Dehlin [00:33:50] That's the question a little bit. Tell us who's in that. Tell us a little bit more about it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:33:53] Okay, that has. It's a book called Conversations with Mormon Authors, and it has 28 different Mormon authors. And when we say Mormon authors, some of them are people who are no longer active in the faith. There's one gentleman in there who's actually Community of Christ.

Christopher Bigelow [00:34:14] And then there's also one other gentleman in there, John Moyer, who is not a Mormon at all, but grew up in Salt Lake and wrote a. A novel that deals with Mormon characters. And so it really covers a broad spectrum. I mean, we have romance novelist Anita Stansfield in there.

Christopher Bigelow [00:34:33] We have Dean Hughes, who writes the historical novels for Deseret Book. We have that side of the spectrum pretty well represented. We have people that I would say are kind of in the middle of the spectrum. People like Richard Dutcher and maybe Margaret Young, who are kind of more the middle. And then we also have kind of the people who are a little bit outside the traditional faith channel. We have Terry Tempest Williams, we have Neil LaBute, Brian Evanson.

Christopher Bigelow [00:35:08] So you can see when you've got Anita Stansfield and Brian Evenson in the same volume, I think that shows he's got some. Some cultural variety in there.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] And again, these are essays they wrote for your book or what.

Christopher Bigelow [00:35:21] What these are, are actual question and answer format interviews. I did a lot of the interviews, but some of the interviews were conducted by other people. And we asked these authors a full variety of questions about their own projects, about, you know, what should Mormon literature be all kinds of questions along those lines. So it's a real fascinating book. It's put out by Kent Larsen on the subject of your podcast last week, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:35:54] His company, his imprint is called Mormon Arts and Letters and he put out this book.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Great.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] Do you have any idea how it's doing? I think he said it's coming out right now. So it's.

Christopher Bigelow [00:36:08] Yeah, it's only just in the early phases of publicity is barely just getting underway. I don't even know if review copies have gone out to reviewers yet. I don't know. I've seen copies and I've started to sell some through my own website.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] Something I forgot to ask you, who's picked up from the retail perspective, the Mormon Tabernacle Inquirer.

Christopher Bigelow [00:36:32] Well, you know, that's interesting because I actually purchased 150 copies at cost from the publisher and I personally mailed them out to a bunch of LDS bookstores as sample copies. And I only have had, I've only had three or four stores so far who've agreed to carry it. And I've had 10 or 12 say, nope, we don't like it. That's too irreverent. We don't want that in our store. Now, these are all members of the LDS Booksellers Association. That means they're lds, definitely LDS oriented bookstores. And so I don't know if that's really a great market for most alternative Mormon publishing. I don't know that Signature gets their books into many of those stores, if any.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] So is it kind of fair?

John Dehlin [00:37:31] I mean, is the content stuff that would maybe turn off the average member?

John Dehlin [00:37:35] Is there sexual content?

John Dehlin [00:37:37] Is there profanity? You know, is there speaking ill of the Lord's anointed?

Christopher Bigelow [00:37:44] You know, are you asking about the Mormon Tabernacle in choir? Well, you know, there's a little bit of, there's a little bit of risque material in there. We have a Mormon Kama Sutra. But, you know, I didn't think there was anything that really went over the line. But some people, it doesn't take much to make them think that you're either speaking too lightly of the church or deity or general authorities. And as an editor, I really tried to pull back on areas where I thought that we might be going too far. And I think I got it to where I'm comfortable with. But a lot of people still aren't comfortable with it, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Who is selling it then?

Christopher Bigelow [00:38:32] Well, I was going to say Sam Weller's Downtown Salt Lake has been very supportive. Borders And Barnes and Noble, at least in heavily Mormon areas. Most of those chains have been carrying it. Not all of them, but some of those big chains in this region.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Did you have to call those guys yourself or what?

Christopher Bigelow [00:38:52] Yeah, our publisher's been very. She's very proactive about getting out there, making friends with buyers. It really. Publishing. There's so many books that come out. Those personal relationships will really make the difference. Like my experience mailing out those copies of the Motab Inquirer to the LDS bookstores. You know, I need to. What I need to do is I need to follow up and call some of them, and I do intend to do that eventually, but I need to have a book that I feel a little more confident that they'll like before I take the trouble to really call a lot of them. And that may happen with the time chart book that I mentioned is coming soon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] You know, it's weird because you're clearly

John Dehlin [00:39:46] doing this because you just love it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] I mean, I should just ask you

John Dehlin [00:39:49] the question, why are you writing Mormon

John Dehlin [00:39:51] books where you're going to make, you know, 10 cents an hour, if that?

Christopher Bigelow [00:39:55] Well, you know, I just don't think we're where we could be or should be as a culture yet in terms of having books and stories and other kinds of writing that's really open and frank and realistic. And, I mean, so much of it just is thinly veiled propaganda, you know, and propaganda has its place, but I just think there's room for more kind of authentic, where we're not worried about what people think of us or how we look, but we're just sort of telling things more how they are.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:40:34] Characters and novels that don't just face challenges from outside that they meet with their sound, internal, wonderful, ideal soul, the people who have real, maybe even some internal conflicts or make mistakes, some real serious mistakes and deal with that. We just don't have as much realistic literature along those lines as I really think we really need.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] And so you believe that so much you're willing to spend a ton of time doing it?

Christopher Bigelow [00:41:11] Well, yeah. It just kind of comes naturally to me. It's instinctual that I would want to do some of this kind of stuff when I don't do it, when I don't try to push the envelope and try to work on projects, I kind of feel depressed. It feels like I'm just wasting my life. And so to me, meaningful engagement comes through trying to write stuff that pushes the envelope to some degree. I mean, I don't want to push it as far as some people do. Not that I don't think that they shouldn't in the way they want to.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] Well, let me ask you this. You're using the term pushing the envelope. And for many, that has a negative connotation. It means sort of let's be controversial. Maybe choose some other words to describe what you're trying to do, if you don't mind. Just if you were going to sort of characterize it. But then tell me what good will come from that, you know, Simpsons episode when people stop watching tv, you see kids jumping rope and a rainbow coming out and the sunshine coming. You know, what do you. Let's say that we have this vibrant culture that's rich and meaningful that you and Kent describe. What is the practical benefit that accrues to members of the church if that happens? That's a two part question, by the way.

Christopher Bigelow [00:42:42] All right, well, let's see. How can I address that? The thing I really want to say is to say that I think there's a lot of us who, when we go to church, when we read or experience some of these sanitized cultural books and things, there's a big disconnect because there's almost a feeling of inferiority that can come over you when you think my life is not like that, or I don't measure up to some of these ideals, or that's not the way I feel.

Christopher Bigelow [00:43:15] I've been involved with some other things that are a lot more challenging and yet I don't feel like I fit because I don't know if anyone else really has gone through some of this because everyone seems to be coming across as. So we want to come across in our faith as very spiritual and pure, and we go to some trouble to do that. And it comes through in our books that same trying to look good and be uplifting all the time.

Christopher Bigelow [00:43:48] I think there's a lot of people who might even stay in the church or be more strongly affiliated with the church if they could read books that are just a little more realistic.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] So you're saying people feel like there's no one else like them, like they're traveling alone, like there's no one they can relate to and it makes them feel ostracized and maybe they become disaffected.

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:15] Yeah, exactly. They just don't feel part of the community. They don't feel as connected. And this is something that happens to me sometimes too. And I've been really grateful for authors like Levi Peterson and some of these types of authors. And there's not very many of them who've kind of taken a different approach. And some people. There is a risk of we hate the word worldly.

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:43] And in some ways, what I. What I hope for in a Mormon literature is a literature that is a little more worldly. But I guess what I mean by that is that it deals more with what it's really like to be in the world.

Christopher Bigelow [00:45:02] So maybe you do have some more frank encounters with sexual things or with substance abuse, with people who really have experiences with that kind of thing, or with people that really go through challenges with their testimony, like when they encounter some of the historical anomalies that we have. I think that can help people process these things more if our culture gave more openness to discussing them, frankly.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] So you're of the opinion that a stronger culture means more active, strong, devoted members of the church?

Christopher Bigelow [00:45:48] I think that it could, overall, it might backfire in a few cases where someone might be on their way out anyway and something in a frank, realistic novel, it could push them the wrong way, too. I mean, it's not like it's a. It's a risky thing, but I think overall the net benefit is good when we're more open and frank and not so much propagandistic all the time.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Sure. Oh, go ahead.

Christopher Bigelow [00:46:23] I was just going to say it's a real uphill battle. And it seems like whenever you write something that is too, it's really easy to write something that's. That's too worldly for a lot of Mormon readers, but then it has too much Mormon content in it for worldly readers.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:46:41] You know, I'm saying that's a real, real difficult spot to try to carve out an audience in, and I'm not sure how possible it is, but that's what I'm trying to do.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] Yeah. Talk really quickly about your. Your feelings and reactions about the. The Deseret Book acquisition of Siegel Book and Tapes and Covenant contrasted or complement what you heard from the Kent Larsen interview.

Deseret Book's Acquisition of Seagull and Covenant

Christopher Bigelow [00:47:11] Well, I think it's a sign that the Mormon market, the Mormon book market, was overbuilt. I think it shows that it was. It's kind of like the airline industry is going through some consolidation right now because of the inefficiencies and other things. And I'm afraid that it just means that we had these two competitors that carved out a great marketplace for LDS books.

Christopher Bigelow [00:47:39] But the pressures of the market, I think people might be reading less now or they might be spending less on books in some areas. I don't know, but I think it's just a sad commentary that the books aren't necessarily maybe as strong a part of our culture overall as they have been.

Christopher Bigelow [00:47:59] So I think that's why you're seeing Deseret feeling more threatened by all the discussion this past summer about Deseret feeling threatened by Seagull's discounting practices and things. They wouldn't be making noise about it if everything was fine with their sales and they were accomplishing all they wanted was sales, you know.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] Sure.

Christopher Bigelow [00:48:24] That's the kind of thing that happens when your bottom line isn't as good as you need it to be anymore or something.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] So you feel like there's likely going to be cost savings through some type of efficiencies or cuts or whatever they do and potentially some price raising. You probably don't see their press releases necessarily coming true and how they envision the results of the acquisition.

Christopher Bigelow [00:48:50] Yeah, I see it as. I don't see how they'll be able to resist increasing some efficiency by taking steps like reducing the number of titles published and really changing the retail mix and maybe even closing stores down the road a ways. I mean, they say none now, but a year or two from now, it's hard to imagine that there'll be still a Seagull on a Deseret book right across the street from each other in some of these communities like they are now. I just can't see how that would be wise in the long term.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Yeah. And Logan, there's both within at least three or four blocks of each other.

Christopher Bigelow [00:49:28] Yeah. In Bountiful and in Provo. They're both right across the street in several locations.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] Interesting.

Christopher Bigelow [00:49:36] So I, you know, and that's not a market. I don't think I'm ever going to get most of my books into Deseret personally. And for me, the real sad thing is that we don't have, except for a couple of independent bookstores maybe in the Salt Lake area like Sam Wellers. There's really not a bookstore, certainly not a chain that's open to carrying what I would call alternative or whatever type Mormon books.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] How about interesting? How about interesting Mormon books?

Christopher Bigelow [00:50:08] Interesting, yes. Alternative is a loaded term, isn't it? I mean, I don't know where to place some of these books. I mean, it's just. I wish there was a chain of stores that did carry a wider variety of Mormon books.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] You know, you're right. I think there's something really true in what you're saying. I think you're basically laying this at the feet of the members and saying the members aren't into decent literature or if they are, they're not into decent literature that touches on their own faith system.

Christopher Bigelow [00:50:47] You know, I think the Mormon audience is really, really thin skinned and sensitive about anything that could just make the church not look 100% perfect.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] That's amazing. And did you, you probably have feelings about Dutcher and his work and how that relates to Mormon film as well, right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:08] Oh, I just ache. I ache that some of his great films haven't done very well. It's that old thing of if Latter Day Saints aren't comfortable, they just ignore. And that's powerful because he's very frustrated now because of the, as you know, the lack of acceptance and box office dollars. Yeah, the audience just doesn't come through.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] Are you guys buds? Are you and Richard buds?

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:35] I don't even know if he'd know me by face. He'd probably know my name because we've emailed and chatted before, but we're not buds. But hey, if Richard wants to go out to lunch sometime, I'd certainly go.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] I love Richard. I love Richard Dutcher. I'm a huge fan. Well, you know, do you have any hope? Do you, do you envision some type of event that might awaken the sleeping giant that is the, the LDS reader?

The Future of Mormon Literature and Publishing

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:10] Okay, that's a really good question because I do have an answer.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] All right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:13] I think the way that you'll awaken the LDS audience to not ignore a more interesting book, as we put it, is to kind of go in. I think an LDS author has to write some kind of a novel or something that it's an LDS novel, it's true to our worldview and he goes and publishes it. He or she. Nationally.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:47] I think a national publisher has to pick up some kind of a real authentic Mormon novel and then it makes enough of a splash nationally that then Latter Day Saint readers will not be able to help but pay it some attention. They won't just be able to ignore it because it's already nationally accepted. Yeah, that's how it's going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] I think you're right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:53:12] This is a book that is going to have challenging elements in it, but it's not going to be a Martha Beck book. It's not going to be a book that we already have books that are. I don't know if anti Mormon is the term, but not necessarily allowing much room for faith. We've already had those kinds of books. But what I'm talking about is a book that still allows for Mormon faith and shows some that isn't just a black and white type thing, then the LDS audience might come around a little bit because they care what people think. And if a book is making a splash nationally, they're going to want to find out what it's all about.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] To defend it or to attack it or to analyze it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:53:59] Yeah. And it can't be a book like the Krakauer book that's going to put our audience too much on the defensive. I think it's got to be a book where some LDS readers are going to say, you know, I wouldn't have chosen to be that frank about sex or something in the book. But, you know, overall, I kind of like the way the book portrays our culture. I think it's true. I mean, that's the kind of response that you would hope to get, and that's what's going to change.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] And you think that could then lead to a trend of more reading?

Christopher Bigelow [00:54:35] Yes, I think that could open the floodgate.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:54:38] That kind of a thing.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] I think you're right.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] And I think if, if Dutcher does the profit and is able to get the right kind of money and the right kind of release, that could do the same for film.

Christopher Bigelow [00:54:50] Yeah. And what you, what you got to do is you, you really make an impact on the national audience.

John Dehlin [00:54:56] Yeah. Yep. And it flows back.

Christopher Bigelow [00:54:59] Well. And the kind of impact I'm talking about is things like, you know, there's more to the Mormons than I thought, or, hey, there's some real human interest there, you know, that kind of response and where the LDS people can see that, hey, there's a way to, you know, what it boils down to is, hey, there's another way to do missionary work.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:55:24] I mean, there is that, too. I mean, if LDS people realize that being more honest and frank opens some doors of understanding, you know, they can see where that's overall good, maybe for the church, too.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] Sure.

Christopher Bigelow [00:55:38] That's the way my thoughts go.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] I think that's really possible. And I'll just add that, you know, there is a potential real opportunity if Mitt Romney ends up doing pretty well and maybe even emerging from the Republican primaries as the candidate and, you know, goes against whoever the Democratic representative is, I'm sure a book publisher is going to be more likely to take on a Mormon novel as that approaches.

Christopher Bigelow [00:56:08] Oh, holy smokes. That could make a big difference.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] Yeah, I think. Yeah, I'm just giving that little hint out to those who want to try and ride that wave.

Christopher Bigelow [00:56:16] I Wonder if I could get Mitt to endorse Mormonism for Dummies.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] I think you mentioned him in it. I saw that today. You actually have him in there.

Christopher Bigelow [00:56:26] Yeah, we do.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] Yeah. Yeah, maybe he would.

Christopher Bigelow [00:56:32] Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. That's the kind of thing that in the political arena, he would be doing exactly what I think someone needs to do in the literary arena. So if he does it in the political arena. Yeah. Maybe it could spill over into other arenas, too.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] Well, let's end with that hope, then.

Christopher Bigelow [00:56:51] Let's do.

John Dehlin [00:56:52] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:56:53] Oh, Zarahemla.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Yes, let's end with Zarahemla. Tell us about that and give us the URL and what you hope people to do.

Christopher Bigelow [00:57:02] Yeah, just really quick. I've started my own little book publishing company called Zarahemla Books, and it is located@zarahemlabooks.com and that's where I'm trying to do some of these things we've been talking about. We've come out with three books to begin with. You can read about those on the website. But they're one of them I did write, but the other two are written by other authors and they're all works of fiction to start with. But we'll also be doing some memoirs, some humor. We've got some great things in the pipeline. So, yeah, it's just my attempt to try to help fill that void between Signature Books over on the one side and Deseret and all its clones on the other. There's other small publishers trying to do the same thing, but like we said, it's tough to carve out that middle territory.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] So you're learning the publishing business then yourself?

Christopher Bigelow [00:57:57] Yeah, I mean, I'm right there in the trenches getting books put together, getting them printed, trying to get them sold. Most of my sales right now are coming directly through the website because. Not a lot of stores. It's kind of hard to get books into stores when you're new, but I'm chipping away at it and having a lot of fun, and so. And there's other small publishers that deserve support, too, so let's all get behind them.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] So, Zarahemla books dot com.

Christopher Bigelow [00:58:26] Yes, check it out.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] Go buy a few books for our homie Christopher Bigelow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:58:33] Well, and other authors are represented there, too.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] And the others there, too. Well, wonderful. Well, I just really enjoyed talking to you. I really feel like I understand a lot more about publishing in this space. It is a little discouraging, but I can't imagine that it's Nothing but potentially uphill or downhill from here. Right. I mean, it can only get better. I can't imagine it getting worse.

Christopher Bigelow [00:58:58] Well, you know, I think we're on a trajectory where things will open up more. I think that they will. You know, and one other thing I'll say too is that as the so called worldly entertainment gets more and more corrupt, which I think we do see, less moral and more carnal minded.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Yes.

Christopher Bigelow [00:59:22] I think we do need more alternatives within our own culture too. And I think Richard Deutscher's talked a long way these lines as well that we need more alternatives so that people don't have to kind of stoop to some of the really unsavory things that you're getting more on TV now. So that's another thing I'd throw out too.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] That's good. Another piece of hope. Well, good. Well, thanks so much for coming on Mormon Stories, Christopher. It's a pleasure to get to know you a bit, learn about what you're doing and to be able to share you with all my listeners so that maybe they can helps support arts. Because if, if we don't support it, it's gonna, you know, not thrive and it's gonna die. So it really is up to you, the listener, to throw your support behind what Christopher's doing.

Christopher Bigelow [01:00:09] Well, thanks very much, John. And I'm looking forward to following Mormon Stories more than I have in the past. I'm now, I'm now a committed listener.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] Okay, well, well, thanks for coming on and maybe we'll have you on again soon.

Christopher Bigelow [01:00:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:00:22] Thanks, Christopher. Take care.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] This program has been a production of Mormon Stories podcast. To comment on this episode or to peruse the archives of past episodes, please visit us online@mormonstories.org Also please consider supporting Mormon Stories podcast by making a contribution today or by voting for this episode@digg.com and sustained.org thanks again for listening.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 41

John Dehlin [00:00:02] So, Christopher Bigelow, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Christopher Bigelow [00:00:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on. I think I mentioned to you earlier that my mom is a huge fan, so anyone my mom likes, I'm a huge fan of as well.

Christopher Bigelow [00:00:16] Well, I sure appreciate your mother's support for me and many others.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Why don't you give my mom a shout out?

Christopher Bigelow [00:00:23] Hey, Nan, thanks for everything.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] It's wonderful. She'll love that. Okay, well, thanks for coming on. I've read a lot about you online, and I'm sure our listeners, some might know you, and a lot of them probably have no idea who you are or why you'd be interesting to listen about, but I'm confident that they're going to be glad that they stuck around. But as always, before we get into the meat of sort of what it means and what it's like to be an author within Mormon lds, book, the book industry, let's hear your story, if you don't mind. So tell us a bit about your story.

Christopher Bigelow's Background and Early Life

Christopher Bigelow [00:01:03] Well, I do have a story. Like everybody, I suppose. I'm a sixth or seventh generation Latter Day Saint from polygamists on both sides. So luckily, I. I say luckily, but I didn't grow up in Utah. And I think that is sort of lucky in some ways.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:01:23] Grew up in Southern California.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Oh, wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:01:26] And. But I did end up in Utah eventually. My parents, I'm the oldest of ten children.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Holy moly.

Christopher Bigelow [00:01:35] And my parents down in Southern California, when I came of age, into the teenage years, I think felt that Utah would be a safer place to raise their children. And so we moved here when I went to junior high school. I think it backfired in my case, though, to tell you the truth.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] What's that?

Christopher Bigelow [00:01:54] Well, there was a bit of culture shock for me when we got to Utah, and I didn't necessarily thrive in being part of a religion that was also so socially dominant. I feel like I'm the kind of person who likes to be different. And so in order to be different here in Utah means that you kind of move away from the Latter Day Saint culture in some ways. And I did sort of do that

John Dehlin [00:02:20] as the oldest brother.

Christopher Bigelow [00:02:23] As the oldest brother. So, yeah, you can imagine how my parents felt when they saw me. First of all, I kind of got into Dungeons and Dragons.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Oh, the downfall of many.

Christopher Bigelow [00:02:35] Well, you know, it really kind of became an alternative religion for me in my teen years.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Did you dress Goth?

Christopher Bigelow [00:02:42] I didn't dress punk is what I got into after Dungeons and Dragons. Yes. So I kind of Went from Dungeons and Dragons to the punk scene, the early 80s, new wave punk scene. I don't know how old you are. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] I'm 37. I definitely went to high school in the 80s. So are we talking Black Flag and, you know, dead. Dead Kennedys or what are we talking about?

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:09] All right. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] All right, I'm with you.

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:11] So by the time. By the time I was 17, I left home and went and lived in the big bad city of Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] Oh, really on the edge.

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:20] Really on the edge. But I was completely sort of distanced from my LDS upbringing by age 17. And I went through two years of pretty much doing whatever the hell I wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] Did you have sort of contempt and scorn for the church at the time? Sort of that teenage angst, you know, it's all stupid kind of thing?

Christopher Bigelow [00:03:43] Yeah, absolutely. I think the word I would use would be boring would be the word I would use. And so I was in Salt Lake kind of in that whole alternative scene, right in the middle of the Mark Hoffman bombings.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Oh, wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:04:00] And the White Salamander stuff. And that just fed the cynicism and the skepticism throughout the area, as I'm sure, you know.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Yeah.

Christopher Bigelow [00:04:10] Kind of doubting, you know, how the church could have been deceived. And so, yeah, I was really stuck in that whole milieu of, you know, I think when you have people in Salt Lake area who've chosen to distance themselves from the dominant faith, they do it with gusto, you know, you have to, because otherwise you'll get caught back up into it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:04:32] And so I was definitely part of that whole alternative scene. And I kind of reached the point where, you know, I developed certain habits that related to substances and other things. And I could tell I was about 19 years old, which is sort of a key age in Mormonism. I don't know if you know why, but I kind of reached the point where I felt like. I sensed that if I were to stay on my path, I would be getting deeper into certain habits and other.

Christopher Bigelow [00:05:11] Opportunity might be the wrong word, but I just felt that I could sense that I was at a crossroads. And so I naturally, through some circumstances, I was forced to move back home to my parents home in Bountiful north of Salt Lake, you know, one of those 95% Mormon communities.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] Yes.

Christopher Bigelow [00:05:35] And it was a good time for me to kind of hunker down and ask some questions, you know, is that the path I want to continue on? If not, what are some alternatives? And of course, the M word, Mission Popped right into head at that age.

Christopher Bigelow [00:05:52] And the minute I started kind of thinking, just playing with the idea of should I serve a mission or what would that mean? Or would it help me to kind of rediscover or reevaluate the faith that I'd been brought up with, that then dropped the minute I started that.

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:11] I began to feel that there was kind of a spiritual force that wasn't very happy with that line of thinking. I mean, I actually began to. There was one night where I was writing in my journal late at night and was writing about some of these questions and I actually had what I call a spiritual experience where I felt that the adversary. I didn't see anything or hear anything, but I felt a, you know, spiritual force actually come into the basement bedroom where I was sitting there writing late at night and scared the heck out of me. And I interpreted it as, you know, don't you dare consider getting out of this program that I've got you into.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:06:55] I think it was kind of an intimidation move. But it was spiritually, it was very real to me, you know, when you talk about it. And even at the time I wondered if it was some kind of a drug flashback or something. I mean, it was just an unusual sensation. But I've come to accept it as an attempt by the adversary to sort of intimidate me. And that helped me. What that did for me was made spiritual things sort of become more real. And the logic that kind of started going through my young head was, well, if the devil's real, which I believe he is now, since he tried to intimidate me in some way, then Heavenly Father and the church and all that must be real too. And so that's what kind of got me on my spiritual path.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Sure.

Christopher Bigelow [00:07:46] Because before that I was just a completely non spiritual person, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] And were your siblings and parents just elated?

Christopher Bigelow [00:07:55] Yeah, I think they were quite surprised. My parents admitted that they thought that if I ever did come back, it would be many, many years down the road. So it was a gratifying 180 for many people. And I was on a mission within six months. Wow. Today the bar would be probably too high for me. The bar might exclude you, it might completely exclude me. But you know, this was almost 20 years ago. So I was able to probably got on a mission a little too quick, actually. But that conversion, I call that my conversion. I did go on to have some good, warm spiritual times, you know, in positive sense as well, through church experiences. Nothing quite so dramatic as that. One night in the basement.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:08:47] But that's what kind of got me going. And was on a mission in Australia within six months. Did kind of that turnaround and quit smoking and other things. Wow. Went on my way and haven't looked back in some ways. In some ways I have, but in a lot of ways I haven't.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Excellent. So what type of student were you in high school?

Christopher Bigelow [00:09:12] I was a low. A low honor student. I barely kind of crossed the threshold into pretty good academics. I think I was 50 something in my class of a large high school.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] And were you a big reader or did you write at all in those teen years?

Christopher Bigelow [00:09:32] Well, you know, I was a Boy Scout through the church and I had to come up with an Eagle project at one point because, you know, I needed to go the full. I was still in the church program then. And that's. Isn't an Eagle part of the requirements for Celestial Kingdom?

John Dehlin [00:09:50] I think it's actually been incorporated into the priesthood, sort of.

Christopher Bigelow [00:09:56] Yes. It felt like it was really important.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] I think it goes deacon teacher, Eagle priest. I think it goes something like that.

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:03] That's about right. So somehow I stumbled across the idea. I had been a reader, loved reading fantasy mostly. And somehow for my Eagle project, I don't remember how I got the idea, but I thought I would put together an activity book that for children in the hospital so that while they were in the hospital they could pick up this little activity book that I would make.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] Oh, wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:30] It had coloring and word puzzles and riddles and jokes and it wasn't a real big thing, but that's what I did. And you have to get a couple other scouts to work with you as part of your leadership. So I had a few guys help draw some things and type some things. And we put together a little activity book and took it down to the local hospital. And that was my Eagle project.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] Do you still have a copy?

Christopher Bigelow [00:10:57] I do.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Do you have a digital copy?

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:01] I could maybe scan it. It was called the Daily Doctor.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Tell you what, if you scan that, I'll post a link to it for Mormon stories and we can have our readers check it out, our listeners check it out.

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:12] I should scan that. Keep it alive that way. I'll do it.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] That's really neat. Okay. So you're writing from an early age and reading from an. Somewhat.

Early Publishing Ventures and Mission Years

Christopher Bigelow [00:11:22] Yeah. But then after, you know, about that time is when I was getting into that Dungeons and Dragons game that I mentioned. For me, it was an all encompassing imaginative thing that really took over my life. I think during my ninth Grade year, I think I played Dungeons and Dragons every single day after school for five or six hours. Wow. And then on the weekends, you know, an equal amount of time. And in the D and D world at that time, there were a lot of sort of amateur fanzines that were put out for the game, and I sort of connected with some of those.

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:00] And somehow, I don't know if it was because I'd done that Eagle project where I put together a little book, but I got the idea that, hey, I could do a pretty good Dungeons and Dragons fan Zane or magazine a lot better than some of these I've seen.

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:16] And so I did. I borrowed some money from my dad and I put out an ad for subscribers in the big Dragon magazine, which is the professional magazine for the game.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:30] I got two or three hundred people to subscribe to my little fanzine started. I actually paid a few little. Well, not little. I paid a few illustrators and writers to help generate some copy. And I made some of my own articles, too, and ran a little Dungeons and Dragons magazine for about a year or two.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] Oh, wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:52] I think it got up to about a thousand circulation.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] Holy moly. How were you printing it?

Christopher Bigelow [00:12:58] My dad had his own business and had printing done through a certain small printer that he knew, and they just went ahead and did my work too. But I paid for it with, you know, subscription proceeds. And it was a fun. Really kind of a fun thing. I learned a lot.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] And they'd mail you checks?

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:16] Oh, sure. I. Yeah, I had a post office box and people subscribed from around the country and some stores carried it. So it turned out to be really quite a.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Did you go to conventions and were you a celebrity?

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:29] You know, I was only about 15 and there was that. That big gen convention that they held every year up over in Wisconsin. But not being of age, I never did get it together. I think it would have been a lot of fun, but I was too young, basically.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] Wow. That's pretty entrepreneurial for a young kid.

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:53] Yeah, I got written up in the paper about it and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Mr. Fun.

Christopher Bigelow [00:13:57] The Deseret News. And this is a pattern that's been repeated several times in my life with the Deseret News is that they send out a reporter to talk to me about this project and the story got killed.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Oh.

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:10] And I think it was because, you know, Dungeons and Dragons is a somewhat controversial.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Yeah. Had Bruce R. McConkie lived to really understand it, he probably would have added it to Mormon doctrine as a prohibition along with Ouija boards. And face cards?

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:28] Well, they were. There were fellows making the fireside circuit preaching against Dungeons and Dragons in the church in those days. And so I think Desiree News didn't want to do a, you know, an article about that. And that's happened to me several times with them since, too, by the way. We can talk about that as we get down the timeline here, if you want.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Okay. Yeah, for sure. So cool. That's a. That's a great story. So what happened post mission?

Christopher Bigelow [00:14:56] Well, let's see. I mean, by then, the bug of doing magazines and publications was firmly part of my system. So I remember while I was on my mission, about halfway through, I was pretty tired of it.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Oh, really?

Christopher Bigelow [00:15:13] I was in Australia, and I was pretty tired of it after about a year. I think that would have been plenty for me is to do one year instead of two. But the reason I say that is because I got the idea that what would I rather be doing than tracting? And I thought there was a little mission newsletter, but I thought, what if we made this into more of a little magazine for the church in this area?

Christopher Bigelow [00:15:39] I had some ambitious ideas. I typed up a proposal, and I thought, this will get me off the streets, and, you know, I can interview new converts. And, you know, I had all these ideas for how to do a little magazine for that area. And of course they said, no, that's not part of the missionary program. You need to get back out there and knock doors. Knocking on doors. But it just tells you that that's where my thoughts often go, is what kind of publication could I do to kind of engage in this community or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:16:12] So after my mission, I had gone on a trip, just a vacation trip, to Boston before my mission with a friend. And I'd stumbled across this interesting little college there called Emerson College. Just a Small College, about 2,500 students. It specializes only in communications. And it just kind of stuck in my head that I would love to go there. And they had a good mag. Well, what they had was a program called Writing, Literature and Publishing. That was their program. It wasn't called the English Department. And each of those three categories appealed to me a lot. And so I managed to get the grants and the student loans and go to Emerson College.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Wow. It's pretty. Probably like 35 grand a year now, right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:17:05] Yeah. I mean, in 1988 when I started, I think tuition was 12,000 just for tuition. So, yeah, it's on par with the cost of the Ivy League. Probably wasn't as hard to get into or Anything. So yeah, I had to pay off those student loans. But while I was there, sure enough, I thought, well, what happened was I was in a magazine editorial class and we actually had the opportunity to think up our own magazine proposal. And I thought, hey, let's not do a proposal, let's do a real magazine. So I started a little campus magazine there.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] Really?

Christopher Bigelow [00:17:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] What was it called?

Christopher Bigelow [00:17:48] It was called. It's a little hard to explain. The name was Ralph Waldo. Who? Uh huh. The reason is because Emerson College. You think of Ralph Waldo Emerson, Right, Right. That it was named after his cousin, Charles Wesley Emerson in reality. And so I, you know, Ralph Waldo, who's that guy? It was a name that, yeah, I don't know how well it worked, but that was the reason for it. And published three or four issues of that, had a few other students that helped me as part of the class requirements and we went out, got on the streets and sold some ads to some local businesses and it was another fun experience. Just solidifying my love of working with publications and especially magazines. So that was a good experience. And I don't know what you want to know next. There's been some marriages and divorces in there and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Okay, that's. You're not the first nor the last.

Christopher Bigelow [00:18:52] No, I hope it's the last for me.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] Right, absolutely. Well, so Emerson, you were there four years then?

BYU Writing, the Association for Mormon Letters

Christopher Bigelow [00:19:05] I did a year at the University of Utah before my mission. Three years.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] Three years at Emerson. What'd you do when you graduated?

Christopher Bigelow [00:19:14] Well, I went to work at a bank and my job title was administrative secretary.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Now is that hard to. To. I mean you probably wanted to be the next. Who, what? Stephen King or you know, JRR Tolkien or whatever. And you go work for a bank.

Christopher Bigelow [00:19:30] Well, that's a good question because I've identified my interest in publishing magazines so far. But while I was at Emerson, I got the idea that I'd like to try some creative writing. I hadn't really, I don't think I'd really done much of what you'd call creative writing. I'd done mostly magazine type writing.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:19:49] And so I was lucky enough I took one fiction writing class with Pam Painter and that was a great class and it got me started and I felt that I really enjoyed it and maybe had some talent at it. And then I got into a.

Christopher Bigelow [00:20:05] Another fiction writing class with James Carroll, who's pretty well known. He's done some best selling novels many years ago. But then he's gone on to become. He won the National Book Award for A memoir called American Requiem. Being brought up by a CIA father and yet being somewhat of a peacemaker himself. And anyway, enough about him. My point is that he was a real impressive, very highly skilled teacher, and he really encouraged me. And he likes my writing a lot.

Christopher Bigelow [00:20:44] And so that kind of got me thinking, you know, I'd like to have a career like his if I could write some books. And so I did, during my undergraduate years, develop the desire to become some kind of a writer, an author of books. So, yeah, that's where that seed was planted.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:21:07] So I went to work at the bank and soon saw that I didn't have any corporate ambition, didn't know what future. I kind of looked at the communications department, the corporate communications department of the bank as being the only place where I might go with my writing proclivities. But that didn't interest me. And so I. What do you do in a case like that? You go to graduate school, don't you?

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Yes, of course.

Christopher Bigelow [00:21:36] So I did. I went through that process of applying and I ended up at byu. Oh, for a master's degree.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] That must have been a shock to go from a bit to go from Boston back to Provo.

Christopher Bigelow [00:21:52] Well, the strangest thing about it was that almost everybody, in fact, I don't know of anybody who hadn't done their undergraduate degree also at byu. So here I came in, I didn't have any BYU enculturation at all. And I felt like I was joining very much a party already in progress because it was mostly people who just went. Went right into the graduate program.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] What year was this?

Christopher Bigelow [00:22:21] I started there. I believe it was. I think it was 92.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] So it was right as the Cecelia Farr, Gail Houston sort of thing exploded.

Christopher Bigelow [00:22:33] I was in Eugene England's Mormon literature class when Brian Edison came to campus from the university. I think he was at the University of Washington. And he came to campus to do his kind of his dog and pony show when he was applying for the professorship. So he came into Gene England's class and he read a story or two right out of Altman's Tongue.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:22:57] To the class.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Is that the one about trying to resurrect Ezra Taft Benson?

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:01] I think he did read that one.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Is that Altman's Tongue or is that a different one?

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:05] I don't remember. I think there was something to do with cats. I don't remember exactly, but I was in that class. And it turned out to be kind of a historic thing, of course, because he went on to get hired and Then get fired for the same writing that I think the department was fully aware he had done. But let you know that story, Probably.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] Yeah, a little bit.

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:29] So it was kind of an interesting time. I didn't know the other people, but that was contemporary with what was happening with those other professors that you mentioned, too, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] You didn't know Cecelia Farr or Gail Huston?

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:41] I did not. I did not get to know them.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] And you weren't plugged into their firings while you were there?

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:48] I was certainly aware of it.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:50] I wasn't on the front line of being.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] Protesting or anything.

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:53] One of their students. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:23:56] But, you know, I liked BYU in some ways.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] How was Eugene England as a professor?

Christopher Bigelow [00:24:04] He was probably definitely my favorite professor at byu.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] And did he even stand toe to toe with your Emerson professors?

Christopher Bigelow [00:24:15] Absolutely. I would say he would have been in the top three, counting that college as well.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] Yeah, that's what I've heard. He was just amazing.

Christopher Bigelow [00:24:24] He was amazing. And when I, you know, he had a big class, I mean, it was over 20 students with this Mormon literature class. But when I came up with my idea for the. My term paper, we talked one on one about it. He gave me some resources for it and just a lot of personal attention. And plus, his class sessions were great. Yeah, it was wonderful. That's one of my. I would say that's my single favorite class in many ways, of my whole college career, undergrad and grad. Was that Mormon literature class.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Yeah,

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:00] it turned out to be a real important class for me, too, because that's where I got turned on to the association for Mormon Letters. The aml.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] Right. Founded by my cousin, Benson Parkinson.

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:16] Well, he founded the email list version of it.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Oh, okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:21] It was actually Gene, I think, who got the ball rolling on the association itself.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] When was that? Do you have an idea? For a year.

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:30] It was a while ago. I mean, it was. It might have been in the 70s.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] And wasn't Levi Peterson part of that, too?

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:37] Yeah, Levi, I believe, served as president maybe twice. I know, I know he did at least once. Then he did the newsletter for many years.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:25:49] And in fact, Levi Peterson was doing the AML printed newsletter and wanted to rotate off of that. And that was when, in about 1999, Benson Parkinson came to me and said, hey, the AML has this newsletter. We ought to make it into a real literary magazine.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] Now, real quick, just for our listeners, most people have no idea what the AML is. Can you tell a little bit about why it was founded and what purpose it tried to serve, up until the time you got involved, just a little background on it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:26:28] Yeah. Okay. The association for Mormon Letters, I believe it started because some readers and writers of Mormon literature started meeting together. I remember reading that they even met in the church office building because some of them were working in the building. And I don't know if it was a writer's group where they were exchanging manuscripts or if they were just talking about literature and trying to figure out how a Mormon literature could be fostered. But I remember reading something somewhere where Gene England was present at one of these meetings and he had to go to some other function, but he got up and said, okay, let's start this group and we've organized it. And he pointed to someone and said, why don't you be the president? And then kind of went on his way and. And that was the beginning.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] Okay, great. And before the Internet did people would just go to meetings or what?

Christopher Bigelow [00:27:28] Well, what they did is they formed an association to. They did several things. They did hold an annual meeting where a lot of mostly academics could come and give scholarly papers on all kinds of aspects related to Mormon literature. There were quite a few BYU professors who were heavily involved and they put together proceedings and published it annually from that symposium. A nice book length collection of scholarly papers on, like I say, all kinds of aspects of Mormon literature.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] So they were writing about writing. They weren't actually doing fiction or poetry.

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:12] Well, you know, some of those professors also were publishers of fiction as well. I mean, John Bennion and Levi, of course. And so, you know, they had their, their fingers in lots of different pots related to the field of literature.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:28:28] But it was academic, mostly analysis and research into the history of Mormon literature and current practitioners of it. And I believe that there was some reading of original creative works at some of the meetings. And so it was. I don't think it ever got real big in terms of membership. I think it always hovered at around 100 or 200 members, kind of hardcore literary types. And like I said, they had this small newsletter that, that Levi was mailing out at probably quarterly or something.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:29:09] And Benson and I, we met with Levi and he passed the baton to us. And that's when we started Erie Anthem, which was a great experience for me. Benson was involved for about the first year and, you know, we made a real magazine of it. We went out and got, I think, a lot of good original creative work, Fiction, poetry, other forms. We did a lot of other things too. Reviews, essays about literature. I did a series of interviews with a variety of Mormon authors, and it was my impulse to go ahead and put those authors on the COVID So the COVID of the magazine usually had a prominent Mormon author's picture right on there and then an interview inside. And recently we've collected 28 of those interviews in a new book.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Yeah, we're going to talk. We'll talk about that.

Christopher Bigelow [00:30:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] Now, was your Ariantum stuff before or after you're working for the Ensign?

Christopher Bigelow [00:30:21] I worked at the Ensign magazine. I started that. That came as a result of. It came directly from an internship that I got at the church while I was still in grad school.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] So Iriantum came after Ensign.

Christopher Bigelow [00:30:40] So I started at Ensign in 93, and Eriantum started at the tail end of my ensign time in 99.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] Okay, so let's just. Let's real quick, let's dive into your. We can come back to the Orientum, but let's, you know. So you get a master's at BYU in English and you go work for the church for the Ensign.

Working at the Ensign and Editorial Controversies

Christopher Bigelow [00:31:05] I did.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Tell us how that's structured. What's it like to, you know, what's it like working for the Ensign? How is it published? What are the quirks? What are the fun things? What are the interesting things? What are the frustrating things? Tell us what it's like inside working on the Ensign magazine.

Christopher Bigelow [00:31:24] Well, as you can imagine, it's fairly structured because of all of the review by correlation and other internal departments that was required. The magazine had to be planned quite far in advance. So we were starting to work on issues almost a year before their publication date, which is longer than some books. So that was one thing, is how long it took. And then that correlation committee. We hear so much about correlation, and there are some good things that correlation does for the church. But it was frustrating to have certain articles be either gutted or outright killed by correlation while I was at the Ensign.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] Can you remember any articles that got killed that were particularly interesting or frustrating?

Christopher Bigelow [00:32:27] I think that the area of articles that got. Were most likely to be killed usually had to do with the missionary program. If we wanted to run a short piece about a missionary companionship that maybe was having trouble getting along, and then even something as innocuous as they sang a hymn together and things got better for that companionship. I remember there was a short piece along those lines that was cancelled because they didn't want to even imply that. The way I interpreted it was they didn't want to even imply that missionary companionships could have any disharmony in the first place. That's one.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] Did you actually get a chance to talk to these reviewers or was it all through like email or memos? Could you go and appeal or have a conversation with someone and say, hey, come on, let's do this here?

Christopher Bigelow [00:33:28] That did happen a lot, but not at my level. I was an assistant editor and I think the managing editor did a lot of back and forth with the correlation committee and he fought some battles and I mean, he was a seasoned church employee, but even by the time I was there, he was still taken blindsided occasionally by correlation.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] Oh, go ahead.

Christopher Bigelow [00:33:58] Well, I think he handled it really well. I think he was frustrated a few times, but I think he believed in the process and, and was able to get some things through that initially had been stonewalled.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] What were some of the other topics that were forbidden or cancelled or problematic?

Christopher Bigelow [00:34:19] Well, I was there. In fact, I was the editor, I believe, who was able to get the first same gender type article into the magazine.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Oh, wow.

Christopher Bigelow [00:34:32] I think it was a personal account that somebody, you know, one of those name withheld personal articles about facing a challenge and overcoming it. And I think it was me, I really do, that got the first one in. That was about a fellow that tried to overcome same gender attraction. And that would have been in about the mid-90s and that I think that had been killed a few times before, as you can imagine. So that kind of got in. And then soon after that, I believe it was Elder Oaks who did the first big general authority authored article on same gender attraction that came out in the Ensign. That came out soon after this personal piece that I worked on.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Was that an issue you believed in and so you wanted to try and make that happen, or was it just what got assigned to you or what.

Christopher Bigelow [00:35:30] I felt that it was an area that needed more airing and discussion in official church channels. Yeah. Okay, I did feel that. And I think that most people, everyone I knew on the staff felt that it was something we should be addressing too. So, yeah, it was good to see that happen.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] Any other issues or articles that you're proud of or embarrassed by?

Christopher Bigelow [00:35:58] Well, you know, I went on. One of my most fun things about working at the Ensign is that two or three times a year they sent us out on reporting trips around the world to see how the church was doing in places like Taiwan or Australia or all over the world. So it was really fun to go on those trips. And the news was always good. We always came back with glowing reports of. Of growth and faith and wonderful things happening all over the World. Of course, there were a lot of things that we had to leave out, interracial problems down in Houston and things like that, but those were some of the highlights for those big international trips.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] And did that. Did that get to you? Did it eat at you? Did you ever feel like, hey, you know, we can tell the truth here. It might even be more inspirational in the end or more productive? You know, was that gnawing at you, or was it just. You were just accepting sort of in a Zen, like, this is how it is.

Christopher Bigelow [00:37:11] There was a certain. At a certain level, I did accept it as it was because I saw some of the letters that came in from confused members, even with what we did publish. What I'm trying to say is that people look to the Ensign as a real source of authoritative church pronouncements, and people would get confused by the most innocuous seeming things that we published.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] Like what?

Christopher Bigelow [00:37:43] Oh, I remember there was an article about how to be a church organist or something to do with people that played the organ in church. And we showed a picture of a female organist, and it was from above. And so it showed her feet on the pedals of the organ and her hands on the keyboard. But I guess her dress or skirt was pulled up a little far because, you know, you need to have that knee flexibility. And we got a lot of mail about that. You know, we had showed inappropriate knees.

Christopher Bigelow [00:38:20] That's just one that I remember. There was a lot like that. Like, there was a painting of some Nephites that we used. And I think, you know, how they try to make those Nephite Book of Mormon era paintings look sort of exotic. And I think. I think someone, a male, had an earring on to make it look exotic.

Christopher Bigelow [00:38:44] We caught a lot of heat for that. Those are both kind of simple examples, but they spring to mind as examples of how people get pretty worked up about pretty minor things. And so I could see where the Ensign really had a responsibility to try to keep things from upsetting people. And so on that level, I could see why it was the way it was. There was another level, however, where I was. I got pretty bored with it. You're bored? Yeah, I got bored. I did. I got bored because, you know, like I said, the news was always good.

Christopher Bigelow [00:39:20] And I happened to be the guy that was putting together the news section at the back during the time when the small temples were in getting up and going. And so it seemed like every issue, it was just more reports of temple dedications just over and over. I did. I got bored with it. And so I wouldn't say that it ate at me necessarily.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] I do have to tell you, that's my favorite part of the Ensign. I jump right to the new section.

Christopher Bigelow [00:39:49] Yeah. I'll tell you the truth. That's where I go first. Now.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] Now, they used to. You may not know this, but they used to show, like, a chart of church membership. And it always used to show how big we were and how big we were growing. And it was sort of this exponential thing that made you feel like the church was always growing in leaps and bounds. Do you remember that at all? Or did they get rid of that?

Christopher Bigelow [00:40:09] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] I don't think they still do it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:40:13] Are you sure?

John Dehlin [00:40:14] No, I'm not sure.

Christopher Bigelow [00:40:15] I think they still do some kind of demographic reporting in there.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] I mean, I know that every May, April conference that comes out in May or whatever, they publish the stats, but I seem to remember, like, a chart. You think they still use.

Christopher Bigelow [00:40:32] I think they still do something. Now, are you getting at the idea that maybe the church isn't growing as fast anymore?

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Well, that's something I've thought about, and I've actually heard that's not true recently. But also that the church actually is growing quite fast now. But also just that maybe they're trying not to emphasize numbers like they used to.

Christopher Bigelow [00:40:58] I wouldn't. My impression is it's business as usual. Along those lines.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] Okay, real quick. Before we jump off of the Ensign, did you have any inspirational experiences, any spiritual experiences, or, you know, run ins with apostles? You know, anything uplifting or inspirational that comes to mind?

Christopher Bigelow [00:41:19] You know, okay. This is something about my personality. I knew I was at the Ensign and it was the church, and I had a little bit of a passive aggressive side to my personality, so I would wear purple shirts when I was editing conference talks. I'd have a little Metallica playing in the background in my office.

Christopher Bigelow [00:41:46] This was kind of my way of getting my little digs in. And so I don't know if that put me in a more cynical frame of mind, but I don't know that I had any. I can't think of any real major spiritual experiences that I had. I'm sure there were many small, almost unrecognizable moments of inspiration. I wouldn't deny that.

Christopher Bigelow [00:42:15] You know, like picking which article to include or which person to interview. I'm sure. I would like to think that all of the editors could be directed in that and that I was, too. I don't remember it happening. You know, and those Mormon journals, those inspirational stories. I'M sure I teared up a little bit, you know, in reading and working.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] Oh, yeah, absolutely. I actually really like those two.

Christopher Bigelow [00:42:40] Yeah. I mean, there's some. So I don't want to say that there was no spiritual warmth there for me, but I don't remember anything major. And in fact, like I said, I kind of had that side to my personality that maybe held me back from the real good stuff that more earnest people might experience there. I don't know.

The Sugar Beet and Mormon Satirical Writing

John Dehlin [00:43:02] And did you ever get to meet or interview any apostles or general authorities?

Christopher Bigelow [00:43:07] I interviewed more 70s than I could tell you. It was my job to often interview the new general authorities or ones that were heading up different church departments. That was kind of fun to be the guy that was asking the questions and putting them on the spot. And a lot of real intelligent men who I respected a great deal. But it was a lot of fun to get to know them, to sort of see them represent themselves to a journalist, as it were. That was a lot of fun. Now, apostles, I don't believe I ever got to interview an apostle because senior editors handled that level.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] Sure.

Christopher Bigelow [00:43:49] But, yeah, I really had a lot of professional growth at the Ensign. I learned how to interview, write articles, do all kinds of things. So I really like my six years there. But one of the things I did right after the Ensign was the sugar beet.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Oh.

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:07] And I think it was somewhat of a reaction.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] Oh, right, sure.

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:14] You're familiar with the sugar beet?

John Dehlin [00:44:15] No. Tell us about it.

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:17] Okay. I hope most people are familiar with the Onion. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] And for those who aren't, it's sort of a satirical web magazine that kind of mocks, you know, current day situations in a newsy kind of way. Is that right?

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:33] Yeah. It follows the newspaper formula and approach, but it does totally satirical stories, fake news.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] Right.

Christopher Bigelow [00:44:44] And I just. I'm a huge. I became a huge fan of the Onion late in my Ensign days when at the same time I was the guy putting together the news at the back of the Ensign. So you can imagine that in my mind, it wasn't too hard to start wishing I could spice it up a little.

Christopher Bigelow [00:45:06] And so soon after I left the Ensign, the sugar beet got started. Because the way that got started was I got a piece of Mormon spam in my email box. It was from a company that was trying to sell software for managing your food storage.

Christopher Bigelow [00:45:30] It just struck me really funny. What other group of people would need software to manage their food storage in their own home? It just struck me as funny. And I started typing up some other fake Mormon product ideas and sharing them with people via email. And a lot of other people started doing it, too. And then we started doing Mormon news stories, fake ones, of course, satirical ones. And it really took off. I mean, one of the guys put together a website, and then the next thing we knew, we were on the front page of the Salt Lake Tribune, and we had 10, 15,000 people looking at it every month. And it became a real phenomenon. It was huge amount of fun, too.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] About what year was this?

Christopher Bigelow [00:46:17] That started in? I GUESS it was 2002, right around the Olympics. I had left the Ensign in about 2000, so it was within a couple years after I left the Ensign. And that was one of the reasons why I left the Ensign is I wanted to be able to do projects like that without losing my job.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] Right. And so 10,000 people coming to the website, huh?

Christopher Bigelow [00:46:43] Yeah, I mean, after we got on that front page and the Ogden Standard examiner did a big feature on it too. Yeah. That really kick started our circulation. And we took it pretty seriously for two or three years and did regular issues every month or even more often sometimes, and really had a fun. A fun run.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] And did. Did people donate?

Christopher Bigelow [00:47:10] We, I think we did ask for donations, but we just took turns paying the web hosting fee among the staff.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] So there's no paper or copy of it?

Christopher Bigelow [00:47:21] Well, you know, when our webmaster burned out two or three years into it, we thought about what could we could do. Was there some way we could monetize it and bring in some income? And I did, at that point, go ahead and do a paper version. Oh, so in about 2004 or so, we did a year's worth of paper issues too.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] I may be putting you on the spot, but can you tell us, like, some of the titles of the articles to give our listeners a sense for what types of things you'd write?

Christopher Bigelow [00:47:55] Okay, I'll tell you some of my favorites. One I really enjoy is relationship with Porn ruining. No, sorry, Man's relationship with wife or no. Okay, I got to get this right. Man's addiction to Wife ruining relationship with porn. So it kind of obviously turned it around. And the way the article was executed was brilliant, of course. And another one I really enjoyed was Gay Polygamists make a Bid for legitimacy.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] I've read that one.

Christopher Bigelow [00:48:35] Yeah, that was one of my favorites. Let's see. Another one that was very popular was a new gospel slow track that members could choose. It's. If it was just a little too hard to follow the normal program, it was legitimate. Now, with this New article to only go to church once a month or read the scriptures once a month. It was like everything you were supposed to do daily in the regular church, you could go weekly on right on down the line. That was another funny one I could go on.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Is there an archive anywhere where you can go read all the archives?

Christopher Bigelow [00:49:21] Well, we recently put out a best of collection, a printed book, and we didn't actually get asked to remove an archive of all our old issues. However, somewhere along the line, someone didn't pay the web hosting fee or something went wrong with the website. Oh, no. I believe that it's burned on CDs in several people's homes. So it's not lost. It's. You can't get onto it online anymore. And, you know, maybe our publisher likes it that way because now we have the book that has a lot of those. Some of the best articles and future

John Dehlin [00:49:58] volumes was the URL the sugar bee dot com.

Christopher Bigelow [00:50:02] Yeah, it was the sugar bee dot com?

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Do you still own it?

Christopher Bigelow [00:50:05] I hope so. One of our guys is the one that registered it, and I hope he still has it registered so that we might resurrect it one day. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] Okay, so did you ever get any grief? Did people ever consider you apostates and write you hate mail?

Christopher Bigelow [00:50:20] Well, you know what? I find that as I've tried to engage the LDS audience with some kind of edgy stuff, the Latter Day Saints are just excellent at ignoring stuff they don't like. They're great. We're a polite people, not really into a lot of confrontation. You do get some. And we have gotten some emails that said that stated the obvious that we were a little irreverent at times. Not as much as you would think. And I think that's wise. If somebody isn't comfortable with what we were doing, what we would want would be to get some email showing that we got under their skin. I mean, that just feeds our fuel.

John Dehlin [00:51:07] Yeah, it gets you excited.

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:09] Oh, yeah. When we would get the occasional angry letter, we would pass it around the staff and just really feed off of that. It was fun.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] They just didn't gratify you very often.

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:19] But when people just kind of ignore you, that's not as fun.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] No, that's unacceptable.

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:24] But that's what the lds. But, you know, we had a lot of faithful people that were able to enjoy our humor.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] That's good. Okay.

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:35] A lot of people didn't, but, you know.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] Well, I have to tell our listeners that it's, you know, it's absolutely brilliant writing. What's the name of the book?

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:44] The new book is called the Mormon Tabernacle Inquirer.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] And that is the highlights of the sugar beet.

Christopher Bigelow [00:51:51] Yeah, it's best of the sugar beet. It really. It doesn't represent all the good pieces, I don't think. I hope we can do some future volumes as well. And this one is selling well. It sold out its first. We printed the publisher, printed 1,000 copies to start.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Who's the publisher? Who's the publisher?

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:12] It's called Pince Nez Press.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] How do you spell that?

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:15] P I N C E N E Z. You know, it's those little spectacles that just sit on your nose. I think I'm pronouncing it right. It's kind of an interesting story. She's a woman, kind of a one man show with her publishing company.

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:36] But she grew up in Salt Lake as a non Mormon. So she kind of had a lot of baggage about the dominant faith. And she's published earlier humor books that were a little more pointed against the dominant faith.

Christopher Bigelow [00:52:53] But when our project came along, she saw it as a, as a lot of it was the humor she could still understand even though she wasn't born and raised a Mormon. And she just loved it. She thought it was a way to kind of build bridges in the community between Mormons and non Mormons because it's always refreshing when the Mormons, you know, can see the humor of their own culture.

Christopher Bigelow [00:53:21] And so she jumped on it and she helped us edit out some material that some people might not understand, you know, and it's been a great experience and she's done a great job publishing it. She sold the first thousand, like I said, within the first month or two and gone back to press and really gets out there and gets it into the stores and we're having a great time.

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