Introduction to Second Anointing Week

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 20, 2024 and we're in the middle of second anointing week on Mormon Stories podcast. We just did a good two hours with Brian Buchanan, employee at Benchmark Books, co host of the Sunstone Mormon History podcast and all around great guy. Brian, it's great to have you back.

Brian Buchanan [00:00:24] Good to be here again. I'm glad that I get to be the second fiddle for once.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Yeah. Yeah. So it was really fun tracing with Brian the history of the second anointing in the LDS Church. I should just say Second Anointing week. The second anointing is the most super secret special Mormon ritual or ordinance in all of Mormon rituals and ordinances. We're talking about it this week and in addition to Brian's amazing chronology and history of the second anointing and this episode, we're going to be rebroadcasting Tom Phillips's epic interview where he talks about this is a British high level Mormon leader who received a second anointing, was buddies with Jeffrey R. Holland and then lost his faith after he received the second anointing. We're going to be rebroadcasting that episode. We're also going to be rebroadcasting Hans Mattson, former area authority from Sweden, his second anointing story so that we can have all those crunched together. And if we're lucky, we're going to have Tom Phillips back on Mormon Stories to let us know how things have been since then. But again, if you didn't watch the history of the Second Anointing, I recommend you pause this episode, go back and watch that. It'll give you a lot more context for what you're about to watch. But it's not super necessary. If you want to enjoy this one and then go back, that's great too, really quickly so that we can not have people joining us for the first time. Wonder what this thing is we're talking about. Brian, I'm going to give you a chance again. This time give like the 3 minute overview of what the second anointing is. For anyone who didn't watch the past episodes.

What Is the Second Anointing Ordinance

Brian Buchanan [00:02:01] So during Joseph Smith's lifetime he develops a series of ordinances. So the ones that you've probably heard of are baptism for the dead, the washing and anointing, or the initiatory ordinances and then the endowment, and then at

John Dehlin [00:02:12] the very end he done in Mormon temples.

Brian Buchanan [00:02:14] They were done eventually in a Mormon temple and Then during Nauvoo, he develops also this ritual called the second anointing. And eventually it will come to be a two part ritual. So the first part is done either several places, ideally in a temple, that the man and woman would have their feet washed by the leader and would be given a blessing.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Usually an apostle.

Brian Buchanan [00:02:37] An apostle and given a blessing that have certain promises that go about as high as one could imagine. King and a priest, essentially a God. And then also a second component that was.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] And that nothing can keep you out of heaven other than, let's just say, murder from you becoming a God in the afterlife. So it's basically about as close to

Brian Buchanan [00:02:59] unconditional as it comes. And then the second component that was done originally at home, later on also in the temple where the wife would wash the feet of the husband and then give him a blessing. And all of this was couched in terms of the greatest blessing that you could possibly have. And goes from a thing given to a lot of people to eventually hardly

John Dehlin [00:03:22] any people, and back and forth and

Brian Buchanan [00:03:25] back and forth in the middle.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Yeah. And you know, it's criticized and it. Some people have concerns about it, just the elite nature of it, how it's selective, how over time it's evolved to where kind of wealthy, famous, elite Mormons get it and lots of other bread and butter vanilla Mormons just don't. So anyway, it's something that, for, I don't know, a century or more wasn't really talked about publicly and openly. And starting with the Tom Phillips episode on Mormon stories and then the Hans Mattson episode, there's been a snowball of interest in researching the second anointing. Brian's certainly working on something. He's got something going on.

Brian Buchanan [00:04:10] The goal is to do a documentary history of it where I'll collect as many accounts of it as I can find and then put it in context and say this is based on all of these numerous accounts and minutes and journals and letters and all these things. This is the history of it and how it evolves and waxes and wanes over time.

Derren Klein [00:04:28] Yeah, it's amazing. I had no idea that over 30,000 members received this ordinance 100 years ago or 80 years ago. It's just.

Brian Buchanan [00:04:36] It's a thing that goes from being given to tons of people to no people on a dime.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Yeah, I don't think we talked. Do we talk about the difference between calling an election made sure and second anointing? Because people get those two things confused.

Brian Buchanan [00:04:49] So that's interesting. We did sort of talk about that. That in early Nauvoo, Joseph Smith starts talking about several theological ideas that use New Testament language. So one of those being calling election made sure the more sure word of promise, the fullness of the priesthood, all these kinds of things. And that becomes interesting later on is and second comforter are all sort of. That's where sufferer comes in, hanging out

John Dehlin [00:05:11] together, hanging out with Jesus, having Jesus visit you, right?

Brian Buchanan [00:05:15] Yeah. And so all these ideas are sort of floating around each other and they get attached to the specific physical ritual of the second anointing sometimes. And then sometimes it's kind of vague. Are these connected? And so as it becomes less common, you'll have people asking, is having my calling election made sure the second anointing? And some people will be like, yes, that's why we have it. That's the physical manifestation of that idea. Now the people are like, no, not necessarily. We talked about how they would have sometimes study groups and discuss this. And that topic came up and somebody said no, because look at Heber C. Kimball. He has an experience earlier that he interpreted as having his calling and election made sure. But then later experiences this physical ritual known as the second anointing. So there are two distinct things and it kind of goes back and forth as what is the relationship of all these terms with this specific ceremony?

John Dehlin [00:06:10] And certainly there's people that have claimed to see Jesus who didn't have the LDS Church's second anointing.

Brian Buchanan [00:06:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] And I'm going to guess there's people that got their second anointing who died without claiming to ever have seen Jesus.

Brian Buchanan [00:06:23] And that was one of the many interesting parts of Tom's is assuming TOM PHILLIPS INTERVIEW of experiencing that you really

Derren Klein [00:06:31] thought that was coming.

Brian Buchanan [00:06:33] He went there fully expecting that that was part of it. And you can understand why.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Yeah. All right, so what is today about? Today is the story of Darren Klein. And it's basically, if I were to summarize it, is what happens when you're rummaging through some garbage that's about to be thrown away, you know, when there's no real hard known documentary evidence of the second anointing and you stumble upon a letter that was written to your grandfather, which is what? What was the letter?

Derren Klein [00:07:06] Well, it's interesting. There's two letters. The first one is an invitation from Spencer W. Kimball, and I think I should show it again. But this letter is the real McCoy. It's the original. And maybe now's a good time to just read it. But it's interesting to me the level of confidence Confidentiality. Right at the top it says.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] Okay, wait, wait, wait. So before you start reading it, let's just. Sorry. People hate it when I interrupt.

Derren Klein [00:07:33] It's all right.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Set the ST for us. All right.

Derren Klein [00:07:37] Okay. I'll go back, set the stage.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] Yeah.

Derren Klein Discovers His Grandparents' Secret Letters

Derren Klein [00:07:40] So my grandparents passed away some years ago.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Are you sharing their name or you're not sharing their name?

Derren Klein [00:07:47] Yes. Yes. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Blythe and Jerry, actually, you wanted to share your intention. And please forgive me, audience. I'm interrupting now. He asked. Darren, asked me to give him a chance to share his intention for why he's doing this episode and why he's not doing this episode.

Derren Klein [00:08:00] So my grandparents, Blythe and Genevieve Gardner of Richfield. And I just want to say that me being here today and sharing this with those who are willing to listen, I don't want it to be by any means misconstrued as disparaging towards them. I love them dearly and get emotional, but they're some of the best people, period. And they lived good lives, worthy lives, and were good to people, to their fellow man. And so the purpose of me sharing this really, is to break down those barriers that the church has established of it being so secretive and why, and hopefully if this can have an impact on someone else that might be listening, much as Tom Phillips interview had an impact on me, then it's a good thing. So I'm sharing it in hopes that others will have a bigger understanding of it. But we were literally cleaning out boxes and boxes of history, of things that were my grandparents. After my aunt passed away, she had possession of those things, and it was my responsibility with my mom, her only living sibling, and her husband. The four of us were. Spent two or three days going through very quickly and throwing away, but keeping what was photos or genealogical things of importance.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] This is around what year this was?

Derren Klein [00:09:32] Just literally in the last 12 months.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] Oh, okay.

Derren Klein [00:09:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] So in 2023.

Derren Klein [00:09:37] Yeah, end of 2023. And so I noticed in one of the city garbage cans, it was full. I'm ready to take it out to the street. It was my grandpa's briefcase. It was an older briefcase. I recognized it. So I thought, well, I better open that. So I opened it, and inside it were obviously his prized possessions. And there were these photos of him with Spencer W. Kimball and his wife, and then these letters. And so when I saw the envelope, and it's addressed to President BlytheGardner, I didn't see a return address here, but it does say at the bottom, very confidential. And so I thought Well, I better open it and see what it is. Doesn't need to be thrown away.

Brian Buchanan [00:10:17] And, Darren, show them the backside of it.

Derren Klein [00:10:19] Yeah, the backside does show that it's from Spencer W. Kimball.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] And we'll share maybe images of these letters in the envelopes just for the history books, right? Yeah.

Derren Klein [00:10:32] So I opened it, and I immediately recognized what it was. It's a short letter. But once I realized what it was, and then I saw the second letter and the pictures, I just put it in a folder and tucked it away and went on with my business of cleaning out the estate and doing what needed to be done. But I knew the importance of it just. And I was anxious to really look at it, but I knew that that wasn't the time because I didn't really want to make it known to everybody that was there that this was in the garbage. But it's interesting how close it came to being just thrown away. And I'm sure this has happened numerous times to others, so it was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Okay, so when you did you say you didn't read it immediately or you did?

Derren Klein [00:11:14] I read it enough to see that it was what it was.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] And you were able to understand the coded language?

Derren Klein [00:11:20] I. I knew exactly because. Because of Tom and Tom Phillips.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Because you'd watch the Mormon Stories episode, Tom Phillips.

Derren Klein [00:11:26] Right. Had I. And I've heard, you know, bits and pieces about this second anointing, being an active member for 60 years. So I. I knew something like it existed, but I didn't have any idea what it was except for Tom's explanation, which was so helpful. So it was interesting how close this came to just being in the landfill.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Yeah. Okay, so at the time you noticed the letter, where were you, faith wise?

Derren Klein [00:11:56] My wife and I have chose to step away from the church about three years ago.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Okay.

Derren Klein [00:12:01] And Covid was an important part of that. It was a time for us to step away from physically and realize that there's more to it. But at the same time, your podcast and definitely Jerry Reynolds was a huge part. My wife came to me, and I didn't know that she was even studying any of these things, but she came to me and shared it with me and was afraid that it would threaten our marriage. And it was a difficult night initially. And then we sat up for four hours that night, and we studied, the two of us, we studied Jeremy's CES letter, and we started looking on LDS.org and seeing some of the apologists and some of the answers, and we had a notepad writing down questions. I mean, it was literally like, you got to be kidding me. I didn't know half of this.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] And did the second anointing play into your faith journey before you kind of lost all your faith?

Derren Klein [00:12:59] I wouldn't say. Maybe it played into it because we had listened to Tom's podcast and we had an understanding of it. And my heart goes out to him. I mean, he's going through just what I'd call just a living hell, literally what he's experiencing with himself and his family. And he's just such a courageous person and so well spoken. I mean, his podcast had a huge impact on me. And it's so interesting, the connection here. Maybe that's part why.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] All right, well, now that we kind of have set up the suspense before you, were you going to read the letter or should we go? Okay. Okay, sure.

Derren Klein [00:13:35] I could take a minute.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] This is it. So this is the letter. Tell us. Tell us everything about this letter.

Derren Klein [00:13:41] I should set it up just a little bit. So this letter was dated July 17, 1974. But in July 7, 1974, my grandpa received a letter which I have a copy of here from Spencer W. Kimball, making him aware that they were going to attend the centennial celebration of the stake in Richfield. It was a very big celebration. I was 10 years old. I was there. I remember it like it was yesterday. Crowded, like you can imagine. And President Kimball and his wife stayed at my grandparents home, and we were there with them at dinner in the evening and playing the piano and singing hymns. It was a nice experience. And it was obvious, even at 10, that it was a special experience and it meant a lot to them. And so it's just literally 10 days later he receives this letter. And so it's.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] You have memories of your grandparents right around the time?

Derren Klein [00:14:35] Oh, definitely. Yeah. This was a really big deal. I remember it very vividly. Okay, so it's interesting that it's very confidential, all capitalized, underlined. Elder Blind.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] What does the letterhead say? The.

Derren Klein [00:14:48] The letterhead, it has the address of the church office building and says Spencer W. Kimball at the top.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Okay.

Derren Klein [00:14:54] And then it says, very confidential, Elder blythe M. Gardner, 85 North 2nd West, Richfield, Utah, 8 4701. Dear Elder Gardner, this will be an official invitation to you to present yourself and your wife to receive your second anointings. Next paragraph. This is the last and greatest of the ordinances in this life, and no mention should be made outside nor to anyone who has not been privileged to have had these blessings. Next paragraph. You will be advised of the Date and time. The place will be the Manti Temple. Please advise me immediately if you desire these blessings. You should be prepared to come in your regular temple clothing and wear the ceremonial garment faithfully. Yours, Spencer W. Kimball, President.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] And it's got a signature and his

Derren Klein [00:15:45] signature, which is beautiful. I love President Kimball. He was an amazing guy. But there's so many things in this short, short letter that just really spoke to me, you know, the level of keeping it confidential just seems. It just seems so bizarre to me. Why? You know, and if it's really. If this really is the latest and last and greatest of the ordinances here in life, then why are we hiding it? Why are we. It just brings up so many more questions.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Why shouldn't people be informed about it so they can strive for it?

Derren Klein [00:16:17] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] You know, and make sure they get it right.

Derren Klein [00:16:20] And probably what had such an impact on me too is. It just seems so wrong. It undermines everything I was taught. I don't know about you, but I was taught that our actions here on life will dictate our outcome in the afterlife.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] Endure to the what?

Derren Klein [00:16:34] Endure to the.

John Dehlin [00:16:34] Endure to the end. Is the slogan right?

Derren Klein [00:16:37] Yes. And then we have these three kingdoms of which we could hope for the best. And inside those kingdoms, we can progress within them. But if you're part of the good old boys club, if you pay enough money, if you're hierarchy in position, you can be given a free pass. And that just does not sit well with me. It really bothers me. I think about my parents, my wife's parents, some of the finest people I know. They should be entitled to the same benefit, to the same blessing. Everyone should. It just doesn't seem right. And it just blows my mind that 50 years ago the level of secrecy still exists today. As I said in the previous episode, if you look on lds.org, the first thing you click on it tells you to not talk about it. Don't ask questions, don't bring it up. It's like, why hide it? If it's such an important last and great ordinance, why is it being handled the way it is? Is it really directed by God? Is it not? It's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] No. That's great.

Derren Klein [00:17:43] Yeah.

Family Background and Faith Journey

John Dehlin [00:17:44] All right, so take us back if you want. Whatever background do you want to share about your story?

Derren Klein [00:17:52] You know, I was raised in a very active home, in a faith loving home, in a small family. I just have one sibling. My grandparents had four children, four daughters, of which my mother is the oldest of the four. There's Only two still living. My mom's one of them. And, you know, we tried our hardest to live the gospel the best we could, I would say. And, you know, the hardest thing for me in my faith journey is recognizing what's not there and recognizing just how unfair it really is. If you really analyze it now, I've probably studied the religion more in the last three years than I ever did before, which is, excuse me, which is kind of interesting. I find it even more interesting to study now. And I'm not trying to find problems or, you know, or be an anti Mormon by any means. I'm just trying to better understand the whole global picture of Mormonism. And I'm glad for the podcast and the different things that help us have a better understanding. But the level of secrecy in this just seems just bizarre to me. And I'm really glad. Brian is. I mean, amazing. The information he's gathered when so much of it is hidden from us and the church redacts as much as they can, and I don't know why. I mean, if it's really that important, why not make it important to everyone? But what bothers me the most is this free pass just being given. So regardless of their actions, whether it be good or bad, they're given this pass to the celestial kingdom that others don't have. That's not right. That's not a just God. I don't believe that. So I really struggle with that. Just from the whole understanding of what's fair and what's not, I think a just God would make the same thing available to all of his children, not just a select few. So that's, in a nutshell, probably one of the hardest things for me when it comes to this topic.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Yeah, absolutely. I'm just. Now, Brian, I don't know if you caught this, but I'm remembering now an episode I did with Matt Purcell, who I'm looking this up because my knowledge is a little bit rusty.

Brian Buchanan [00:20:30] Oh, have you done thousands of interviews or something?

John Dehlin [00:20:32] I've done almost 2,000 episodes. But yeah, there's this guy, Matt Purcell, who basically reports that he was sexually abused by his grandfather, who he believed had received the second anointing.

Brian Buchanan [00:20:49] And Spencer Palmer.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Yeah. Did you already mention that?

Brian Buchanan [00:20:53] No, no, no, I'd forgotten about that one. Right, yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] And you know that I'm just trying to address the concern that if you're

Derren Klein [00:20:59] told

John Dehlin [00:21:02] you're a God, as long as you don't murder anybody, one risk is you could develop hubris or pride that you're pretty much Invincible. You'll be forgiven for anything if you don't murder. And unfortunately, we know some humans would think that way. And, you know, you can check out the Matt and Stephanie Purcell episode where Matt suspects that that's what happened with his own grandpa. Anyway, just wanted to. That's an illustration of the point you just made, right? Yeah.

Derren Klein [00:21:28] So it was kind of interesting that this invitation came just a week or 10 days after they spent time in Richfield for the conference. And I'm sure that's a time when President Kimball was able to rub shoulders with my grandfather and my grandmother. And then the invitation was given, and then a second letter came in, the same envelope, same letterhead again from President Kimball. And so here's this original letter here. And it says, without reading all the previous stuff, it just says, dear President Gardner, this is an official invitation to you to present yourself and your wife to receive your second anointings, plural. This is the last and greatest of the ordinances in this life. And then he underlines this and says, no mention should be made to anyone. It is most sacred. And the date and time is given. This will be given Sunday, February 2, 1975, at 1:30. The place will be the Manti Temple. Again, underlined, it says, please advise me by return mail if you desire the blessing and can arrange to be present. Spencer W. Kimball. And this is a picture of them the day of that Sunday at the Manti Temple.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] So that's Spence W. Kimball shaking the hand of your grandparents, basically. That's right, the hands, yeah.

Derren Klein [00:22:53] So this was all in that same file or briefcase that I know my grandpa was keeping for safekeeping because it meant a lot to him.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] And I just. We talked about this last episode, Brian. But you know how, like, as Todd Benson was big on the Book of Mormon and Russell M. Nelson's big on temple building, one of Kimball's secret legacies was bringing back the second anointing. Right.

Brian Buchanan [00:23:20] And so many of those themes that we talked about, we see them play out here. So we talked about the idea that whereas earlier bishops, stake presidents, even people could request it themselves right into church headquarters, eventually that becomes, essentially, the church president is the one who identifies candidates. So that this idea of him visiting the Stake Conference a week before, one of the things he's doing is looking at Blythe Gardner. Is he a candidate? Because as he moved up the ranks, he'd gotten on the radar. And then, sure enough, a week later, the letter is sent out to him.

Derren Klein [00:23:53] And not to brag, but my grandpa and my grandmother were Very well revered in Richfield. He and his brothers had a prominent cattle business. Standards in those days were very well to do. But he was also a man of service. I mean, serving as bishop and then stake president for over 10 years, serving as mission president for five years in Germany, taking his family with him when he was young. I mean, those are all major sacrifices that he held dear to his heart. And it was a big part of his life.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] I mean, in all fairness, we've been emphasizing up until now the status and the fame and the money of people who get it or the congressmen that we mentioned last time.

Derren Klein [00:24:35] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] I guess we're not mentioning that probably many of these people were just super good people, right? Super kind, loving people. And you testifying about your grandparents, we don't want to forget that maybe the Brethren were choosing also many, just super high quality people that gave their lives to do good within a Mormon context.

Derren Klein [00:24:54] Sometimes it's very true. And sometimes I wonder if the caveat really is a method in a way to just keep people at that level of their religion. Trying to keep people engaged, you know, give them something kind of secretive to kind of look forward to. You know, it's kind of like, are you as good as the Joneses or not? Right. And it just, it feels that way a little bit. Not necessarily my grandparents, but just in general, the way it's handled, you know, learning. In Brian's episode where people would long for their own children. My son's a great guy. Can he receive it? You know, so and so know, making recommendations because their faith is so strong. They want this. They want this stamp of approval or this stamp of you've made it for their loved ones and for themselves. And maybe I just don't understand the level of secrecy. You would think it would be the opposite, that they would want to boast about it in hopes that people would stay in line, stay in check so they could receive that someday. But it completely undermines everything we learned through my whole life about the church. You know, the purpose of this life is to prove yourself worthy to be one day in the celestial kingdom. Earn that, not be given it. I think the reason they keep it so quiet is so undermining to the whole principles of the Gospel.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So what do you want to tell us about just your own story as it dovetails into having this fateful discovery?

Doubts, Deconstruction, and Leaving the Church

Derren Klein [00:26:31] You know, it's funny, when I was extremely active, especially in the last 10

John Dehlin [00:26:38] years, did you do all the things like mission and temple, marriage? I'm Assuming it is.

Derren Klein [00:26:42] Yeah. You name it. Yeah. Had a great mission. I have the best wife in the world. Temple marriage, wonderful. Four kids, four grandkids. I mean, we have a great family. The hardest thing has been the feeling that I indoctrinated my kids in something that I no longer have a belief in. But still, making our home a Mormon friendly home has been challenging, to say the least.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Did you ever serve as a bishop or stake president?

Derren Klein [00:27:11] No, but I've had important callings, and I've always been willing to serve. I've never turned down a request to serve. Elders, quorum, present, young men's present, high priests, group leader, presidency. I mean, you name it. But if I have anything that I'm more proud of than anything is just the level of service that I have given in the past and still give to those in need. And, you know, there's things like that that the Gospel's brought to us in our lives that we're still thankful for, even though we recognize that there's some hypocrisies in this church that are just unfair, not right, and cannot be reconciled. And the challenging thing for me is to read the apologists. What we would say is their answers to many of these questions.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Do you remember when you first started to have serious doubts or questions? And can you just kind of take us from that moment forward a bit to why would such a stalwart, faithful member start even questioning, when did it begin?

Derren Klein [00:28:14] It's interesting. You know, as we age and the years go on, sometimes we reflect on our lives and things we did that were right and wrong. And, you know, I reflect back. There was a classmate that I was unfair to when I was in high school. And, you know, when we're brought up in the church, our. Our beliefs or their beliefs become our beliefs of how we treat the LGBT community. And unfortunately, how I was raised was how bad it is and how wrong it is and how those people are just of the devil. Literally. That's how you feel because of the way the church just has no acceptance for them. Well, I got wound up in that, and I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I will. I treated a classmate unfairly, and I remember to this day some of the words I said to him and how hurtful they were. I remember how it hurt him. And 15 years later, this was 40 years ago, 15 years later, I started having these discussions with my wife, and I told her about it, and I admitted to her what I did that was wrong and how I wanted to make it right. Well, I couldn't find him.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] So as a believing Mormon.

Derren Klein [00:29:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] You were regretting how you treated a gay person friend that you knew in high school.

Derren Klein [00:29:40] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] So around what age were you at that point when you were starting to feel remorse about that?

Derren Klein [00:29:47] I would say about 30, 35.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] But not an LGBT ally by any sense?

Derren Klein [00:29:53] Not at that point, no. But still, recognizing, maturing, and understanding that, you know, these traits or these behaviors are not something you can change. You can't pray it away. This is life.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] And this would have been pre proposition eight before 2008, definitely. Okay.

Brian Buchanan [00:30:09] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] Yeah. All right.

Derren Klein [00:30:10] And so, you know, and I kept trying to find this individual and locate him with anybody I could talk to so I could at least visit with him about my poor behavior. Well, I found him three years ago, and I had an opportunity to apologize to him for how I behaved. And he's just the most remarkable person. He and I are friends like you can't imagine. We text each other every week. It's just been such a good thing for me to be able to make that wrong right, or at least to attempt to make that wrong right. And when I got to talk to him the first time and apologize, I told him, I said, I don't expect you to accept an apology, but I sure need to voice it, invent it, and share with you how I feel. And the most powerful thing he said to me was Darren, he says, share this with your family, share it with others, share it with your kids, because these type of experiences and where you've evolved to will just help the LGBTQ community and please be open about it. And he says, I have no malice. He says, I love you as a friend. He says, I remember it, but I'd never thought anything more of it. And he thanked me for the apology. And then we got to meet each other at the 40 year graduation reunion and go to dinner and spend some time. And my wife and I and he are just great friends. I wished he lived closer. He's in Colorado.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Okay. So that you're starting to develop some LGBT empathy in your 30s as a devout Mormon. Still believing.

Derren Klein [00:31:49] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Okay.

Derren Klein [00:31:50] But it just completely grew and grew as I, you know, my desire to find him was. It was just so important, and I was hoping so bad that he was still alive where I could at least try to make a wrong right. And it was just so powerful to me that his response to me wasn't about himself or feeling bad for himself or. It was just so Christlike and so forgiving. It just was so humbling for me, it was an important part of this whole journey that we've traveled down. But when my wife came to me and shared with me the CAS letter.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] So around what year was that?

Derren Klein [00:32:26] About three years ago.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] So you were still faithful and Devout as of three years ago?

Derren Klein [00:32:31] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] So that's 2021 for those who don't know what year it is.

Derren Klein [00:32:35] Yeah. And it was kind of post Covid, you know, that timeline where it afforded her some time to study more on her own. And I didn't really know her involvement there. And all I knew about your podcast. Oh, don't go. You know, that's anti Mormon stuff. Don't pay attention to that. But it didn't. It was interesting. My wife's fear literally was that it would be a breaking of our marriage. And my comment to her that night was, if you feel this strongly about it, my commitment to you comes first. The church has taught us families first. I love her dearly. There's no way I'm going to let this come in between us. And I said to her, I said, please just don't ask me not to love the Book of Mormon. I remember that because it was so interesting that that was my fear because I love many of the teachings in the Book of Mormon and it's still so to learn that it was a plagiarized book was an eye opener, but that was weeks in the future.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] Do you have a sense for how long she had been struggling or questioning before she came to talk to you?

Brian Buchanan [00:33:41] She had some apostates in her life, didn't she, that may have had some conversations with her about that.

Derren Klein [00:33:48] We've had some interesting conversations and we've had a brother in law and a sister in law who saw the light much sooner than us. And we're very careful not to share those things with us unless we asked them of them, which was, you know, they were respectful of our Mormon journey as a family. But our love for them didn't change whatsoever when they left the church.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] But they may have influenced. Not influence, but your wife may have learned some truths about the church history and its doctrine of theology from them.

Derren Klein [00:34:21] No question that it did open our thought processes enough to. Let's explore this. And quite honestly, I wish anybody would, because when these hypocrisies come to the surface and you really put them on a chart and write them down, there's so many things that just are so out of line that you just can't have answers for. It's frustrating. It's really frustrating. And to know that our entire lives have been wrapped around this religion that is so demanding of time, talents, money. You know, if you pay, you can go. If you don't, you can't. I mean, it's just there's so many things. And I always had a hard time with the racist underlying blacks in the priesthood or temple ordinances or lack thereof, really bothered me. And the other things we've talked about with the LGBTQ community, those things were bugging you.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] Do you remember as you started studying the CES letter, what were some of the big things that stood out for you?

Derren Klein [00:35:22] Well, the ones we've mentioned now, but so many different things in the CES letter. All of his questions were just so matter of fact. It was like, help me with this. I mean, he's pleading with the brethren. I love the way he writes it because he's not saying, I learned this and you're wrong about this. He's saying, help me understand this. And the Church's response to it is just so wrong.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Ultimately, he was excommunicated.

Derren Klein [00:35:46] Yeah. Sorry. Boom. You're X without an explanation. It's just crazy when you really, really analyze it. It's just he's such a brave person to have gone through what he has gone through. And even still today, the faithful LDS people look down on him for simply asking for the truth. And why is it that the Church wants to spend more effort in hiding that truth or pushing it under the rug? It's just beyond me. I don't understand it.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] So you had told your wife, please don't make me not love the Book of Mormon. What were maybe you called the Book of Mormon just recently, just in this episode of Plagiarism Worker Plagiarism. What were some of the things, some of the most crucial things you learned about the Book of Mormon that led you to conclude that it was a plagiarism?

Derren Klein [00:36:42] Well, just recognizing what he expressed in his letter as he asked the brethren about this book that was written, you know, seven or eight years prior to the release of the Book of Mormon, and the similarities of the names, the places.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] View of the Hebrews. You talk about view of the Hebrews. Okay, so the similarities between View of

Derren Klein [00:36:59] the Hebrews and the Word. More than similarities. I mean, it's 80% the same. It's just. It's so obvious where it came from

John Dehlin [00:37:06] in terms of the narrative structure.

Derren Klein [00:37:08] Right, right. Most. The thing that really trips my wife up the most is the rock and the hat. You know, until we actually studied this, she never knew of It, I had heard of it.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] What is that? For those who don't know, what is that?

Derren Klein [00:37:22] His way of translating the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith, the golden plates. I went on a mission and taught and preached that these witnesses in the front of the Book of Mormon, they're signing this and they've never gone against it. They saw these golden plates. That was always what I was taught and always my understanding. Only to learn that they redact that to they saw the golden plates with their spiritual eyes. Well, come on. Spiritual eyes, it just doesn't, it doesn't jive.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] And why did the stone and the hat bug you?

Derren Klein [00:37:55] Because what bothers me about that is it's never been really talked about. It's almost like they're embarrassed about it. But then it also falls right into line with his seer stones and his Joseph Smith. When I say he, his searching for these relics and I mean he was criminally prosecuted for that behavior.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] The treasure digging stones.

Derren Klein [00:38:15] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] And he used the seer stone and maybe the hat for that. So why is he using it to translate God's holy scripture.

Derren Klein [00:38:22] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Yeah.

Derren Klein [00:38:24] And then the other thing is the multiple changes to the Book of Mormon. I mean, we really don't have the first edition understanding today and there's such a level of changes. So if this book is really properly translated a gift from God, why do they need to redact it or change it or tweak it to meet modern day, Modern day beliefs, literally. And so I struggled with that, you know, so I started researching those changes. So it's not something that happened overnight, but over many weeks and months of studying and learning more and more and

John Dehlin [00:39:02] were you looking for a reason to leave the church?

Derren Klein [00:39:04] I know me now. The opposite.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] Were you wanting to drink a beer?

Derren Klein [00:39:08] No, no. Just the opposite. No, no. We honored the word of wisdom in our home and I believe we were good, good Mormons, Good faith, God fearing Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] So you didn't want to lose your faith?

Derren Klein [00:39:21] No. As a matter of fact, to this day it's still really hard. You know, you find yourself a little bit in limbo, you know. Yes, I've left the church because I won't play with those hypocrisies. And I don't think it's right. But at the same time, at the same time, I miss a lot of the things. I miss the camaraderie, I miss the elders quorum. I miss being needed. I miss being aware of when someone else is in need. I remember the era of Spencer W. Kimball. Just do it. I Remember that very well all the way through my youth and early years of the priesthood and how many times we used that reference and how important it was. I remember President Hinckley's talk that impacted my entire life about service, that it's not enough to serve when you're asked, but to go amongst your neighbors and look for those who are in need, members and non members alike. Look for something that you can do to help someone else. And it's infectious. I believe that I still try to live, that I still try to help my fellow man when I can. I don't feel like we're any different today than we were three years ago. Three years ago we had temple recommended and we paid full tithe. Today we don't. I don't feel any different. I'm still the same person. I'd like to think that we're not any different.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Do you want to share where your kids were in relationship to the church when you guys started realizing you didn't believe anymore, or do you not want

Derren Klein [00:40:56] to talk about that? No, that's fine. Our kids are active, we're active.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] All four. All four were active three years ago when you all lost your faith. That's a hard thing.

Derren Klein [00:41:07] Yeah, we have. One of my boys is not real active and has kind of vacillated in and out of activity and has had some challenges in life. But it's interesting that he's the one that defends the church the most after serving a mission in Poland. And you know, when he catches his dad being critical of the things I've learned, oftentimes he's defending the church when he'd be the one. I would think would be the opposite. But we have a couple of kids who are today still very active and a couple who are semi active. And as parents, we're trying to just maintain a Mormon friendly household where we, no matter who comes to our home, they can feel comfortable. Not feel like we're bashing or slamming the church, but at the same token, we don't have to present a side either way. And it's challenging. It really is, because it's consumed my entire life for 60 years.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Yeah. So what was it like letting your kids know that y' all had decided to, you know, step away from the church?

Derren Klein [00:42:22] That's a good question. We handled it individually, collectively, together, and their reactions were what you would probably expect. A myriad of questions and answer. And we made sure they knew that we weren't trying to force this on them or make it, you know, we spent our entire life, indoctrinating them in the gospel. We certainly didn't want to retract all of that in five minutes, but each of them had a different reaction and still has to this day, reacted differently. And I would expect that. The hardest thing for me was my parents. They've always had a lot of solace in knowing that their two sons, there's only two of us, have remained active and have an appreciation for the gospel and have tried to follow our grandparents lead. And it's been hard for them because they, you know, they're in their 80s and when you're at that age, you start contemplating your own mortality. And we don't want to challenge their faith, interrupt their faith, have a problem between us because, you know, we love them, but at the same token, we don't want to be hypocritical. And so there's a real delicate balance there. And it's tough and I know it brings a lot of pain to them, but they don't know what we know. And we shared a little bit of it with my dad, for example, and he and his wife finally shook their heads and said, you know, that's great, but probably shouldn't be talking anymore about it because they're just so tunnel visioned with where they're headed in their lives. And that's understandable. And so again, we try to be respectful of that and, and not let it interfere with relationships that we should have with our parents.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Yeah, it's hard to disappoint your parents, especially when they've looked to you as like a source of pride.

Derren Klein [00:44:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] And validation.

Derren Klein [00:44:23] That's right. You know, and that, you know, I'm speaking of my parents, but it was equally challenging with my wife's parents. You know, we did this together where we discussed it with them and, and it's been hard, but. But rest assured, we still have an immense amount of love in our home for all of our parents and kids, and we will continue to have that and they've shown the same to us.

Connecting the Letters to the Broader Mormon Experience

John Dehlin [00:44:49] So what else do you want to share? Maybe going back to the letters you discovered and tying all that back in. You're connecting up with Brian and others. How do you want to kind of tie back in the second anointing to your story?

Derren Klein [00:45:07] You know, it was powerful for me. You know, I wanted to, I wanted to look at Brian the whole time and his podcast because it's just so amazing, just the amount of historical information that he has gathered that he has studied and factual information that can be backed with actual letters and books and writings. And that's the little bit that we have. I mean, this isn't something that happens every day where we find this information, where it's happened. And it was pretty powerful for me to visit with him. I had no idea that 30,000 plus members, tens of thousands received this ordinance. I've been active for 60 years or 57 years. So how do we not know more about this? Why is it so secretive? And if it's the last of the everlasting greatest ordinances here in life, I mean, we go to the temple and we learn what we need to do there to return to our Heavenly Father, to maybe receive exaltation or the celestial kingdom. But this is never talked about again. There's such a gap there. How does the church reconcile it? Well, I guess it's simple. If they completely say that it's not necessary and it's really not an ordinance, then it undermines previous prophets. But on the other hand, if they make it public where they say this is a necessary ordinance, then it kind of undermines them as well because they didn't make this practice available to all, only to a select few. So it's kind of like they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. They, they're kind of in a pickle amongst others that we've discovered. But this is one of them that's fairly problematic for him.

Brian Buchanan [00:46:57] And those aren't the kind of pickles that Elder Bednar has spoken of.

Derren Klein [00:47:02] Yeah, I don't think so. No, I didn't think so either.

What the Second Anointing Meant to His Grandparents

John Dehlin [00:47:06] What do you guess it meant to your grandparents to receive it?

Derren Klein [00:47:09] Well, I know what it meant to them. I remember as a child and, and the entry of their home. And they lived in the same home in Richfield their whole life. Matter of fact, it was built prior to grandpa going to World War II. And Grandma was there alone in this new home, trying to put the coal in a coal burning stove to keep warm in the winter for three and a half years while he was gone. But this home was a very nice, small, humble home. But in the entry there was this cabinet, this antique cabinet with this porcelain bowl on it. And she babied that as kids. I remember her telling us that it's not to be touched. It's very special to them. Now it makes sense to me. I really believe that's the bowl that was used to wash their feet. And it meant so much to them. It was a prized possession. They never wavered in their faith whatsoever. And I know that I can Only imagine that that ordinance was special to them. When you read the letter, it's obvious that they should know about it. But then how should they know about it?

Brian Buchanan [00:48:23] Do you think they did, Darren?

Derren Klein [00:48:27] I think Grandpa for sure knew of the ordinance. And when they were. When it was, when they were invited to have this ordinance, then I'm sure he spoke, the two of them spoke together about it. And of course, when you're in this religion to that extent, when the prophet speaks, you listen. And when he asks you to come, it doesn't matter if it's for an ordinance for you or for him or what it is. You just do it. That's just do it. So I'm sure that their response immediately was yes, Maybe they didn't know all the particulars, I can only guess. But they certainly knew enough about it to know that it was a special invitation and that it would be something that they would want.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] Because that was a weird part of your letter. Maybe you highlighted this, but it says don't share with anyone unless they've received the ordinance. But then how would they know if someone had received it?

Derren Klein [00:49:16] That's right. I thought that was peculiar, too. I mean, how would any of us know who's received it and who hasn't?

Brian Buchanan [00:49:22] That was a question I had as well. Wondering at that point, given how limited it had become, was whether any other members of his stake had had it or would have it during his time.

Derren Klein [00:49:33] Interesting.

Brian Buchanan [00:49:33] And a good chance that there probably weren't any. That's kind of a little more out of the way. So it's very possible that he and Genevieve were the only people in that stake that had received it.

Derren Klein [00:49:43] Right to this day. I always kind of thought it was just the two of them until you brought to the surface, Brian, this letter that spoke of four or five couples and the date being scheduled around this temple president having a heart attack, what have you. So that's interesting. And then also Tom Phillips, the same thing. He mentions that there was three or four or five couples that went with them at the same time. Not in the same room necessarily, but it was an experience that President Ballard did with the Phillips and others. We don't know who those others are necessarily, but it's definitely has taken place at a level that we just have no idea. It's probably happening today. We just don't know. I'm sure they're not sending letters inviting. I'm sure it's not done with a written record.

Brian Buchanan [00:50:42] They probably slide into their DMs.

Derren Klein [00:50:43] Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. But it's interesting too, that what frustrates me the most is how it undermines the real purpose of our life. It just completely pops the bubble of why try so hard. You can just get a second anointing and get a free pass. It's the good old boys club. It's the part of the church that I dislike the most.

Brian Buchanan [00:51:11] And it's clear that that line of thinking had become common enough that you'll see things from like a Joseph Fielding Smith, a Bruce R. McConkie pushing back against that saying, no, hold on there. No, no, no. Don't get the idea that you can just do whatever you want because. And then kind of wrestling with that because so clearly people at least theoretically had raised that idea that, well, that sounds like people that get it can do whatever they want. And they tried to say, whoa, hold on, let's not go down that road. But you can see where that thinking comes from.

Derren Klein [00:51:40] Right. And those listening today, if they have not heard Tom Phillips, if they have not heard his podcast here, please listen to it because it is just heart wrenching and it is so important to really see into his mind as to what he was expecting. His expectations literally were to see the Savior. Now I need to go listen to it again because I can't remember what gave him that idea. He had studied something where he had learned that he might have an opportunity to actually meet the Savior. And I really believe that he attended the temple that day believing that he may be able to shake the hand of the Lord. Yeah, he was. I think maybe he was let down that he didn't.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] Yeah. And I haven't said this, but like, absolutely. People always ask me what are the most significant or your favorite or your most important episodes. Absolutely. Tom Phillips is top five, if not number one. You know, it's up there with Michael Koh. It's up there with Robert Rittner, Christine Jepsen Clark. Like, there's just some episodes that are just cannot miss and there's been so many over the past few years.

Derren Klein [00:52:49] But he's extremely brave and he's gone through some turmoil with his family over it and continues to. And I've been blessed not to have that problem. But it's. It's heart wrenching to. To hear.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] Yeah. Okay. Well, Brian, were there other parts of Darren's story that you wanted to make sure got shared other than the fact that it was sort of his story that was an impetus to some of your, your research?

Brian Buchanan [00:53:20] So this is something that we Brought up at the end of the first interview was that there are more letters like this and more sources that will help elucidate this history. So we mentioned be curious and, you know, make sure these things don't end up in the briefcase in the garbage. So be aware of what's been passed down to you and learn your family might be part of this story too, and you don't know it yet. So be curious and ask questions.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Very good. All right, Darren, anything else you want to share about your story, where you are now?

Life After Leaving and Moving Forward

Derren Klein [00:53:54] You know, we're in a good place now and we're continuing to navigate the journey. If I could say, I've never been closer with my wife than today. This has actually brought us closer, which is kind of ironic. You know, we're told that it would do the opposite, but it has brought us tremendously close. We don't have any hatred towards the church. If anything, the opposite. We have some frustrations that we share with one another, especially about the way they just want to hide certain things. And I don't understand that. I would think the true church of God is going to want to share everything with everyone and be transparent, but the lack of transparency in these difficult topics is gut wrenching. It's not right. It's just not right. I appreciate that the most in your podcast that you're always backing it with sources, and many times, if not most of the time, it's the church's sources. It's their own writings, it's their own essays or what have you. It's their own information. If we had all their information, if it wasn't hidden, it would be remarkable. But, you know, this isn't made up stuff. This is what it is. And either study it and research it or you don't. And when you do, it's hard to put that puzzle together. It doesn't make sense as simply as they would like it to.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Yeah. So, you know, there is that saying that we're taught wickedness never was happiness. You've left the church in your kind of golden years, as they say. But you're. You haven't become dark and lonesome spiritually?

Derren Klein [00:55:39] No, no, just the opposite. I think I really believe that. Probably more in tune now to people's needs, my own family and friends and those that we come in contact with than I was then.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Yeah.

Derren Klein [00:55:57] It's knowing the truth now. Sometimes it's a little bit daunting, a little bit depressing. Only from the standpoint. There's times where I get really bitter and angry. At the church. You know, I've spent the better part of my entire life not just living this, but teaching it and spreading it. And now I think about the people that I brought into it. How unfair. You know, I don't want to be considered an anti Mormon, but I'm certainly not an active Mormon. I'm not going to go out. And another thing I like about your podcast is how careful you are to be respectful of those that are still in the faith and respectful of those who have left. And I think that's a real quality. It's a real asset.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] Well, we try. Thank you. Yeah. And there is this idea of a sunk cost fallacy where the longer you've invested in something, the less likely you are to, you know, change course. What would you have to say to someone in their 60s or 70s or even 50s or 40s, where they're just like. And we're not trying to persuade anyone to go anywhere, but if. If there's an example of someone where they're not in a healthy, happy place, but they're just feeling like, I'm in my 60s, I'm in my 70s, I don't even. I'm terrified, you know, of making a change because I've given my whole life to this. And if I. And to admit now that it isn't what I thought it was, then I have to admit to myself that maybe I've wasted 40, 50, 60, and this is how other people might frame it. I'm not framing it this way. They might say, then I have to just accept that Maybe I've wasted 40, 50, or 60 years of my life. What would you say to that?

Derren Klein [00:57:46] I would say just the opposite. It's definitely not a waste. And it's never too late to really study and really get answers for yourself. I just think it's impactful. And anything short of that, I mean, the church has taught us that all along. Let's read the scriptures, let's study, let's go to Sunday school. Let's do the things we need to do. Let's study, study, study. Okay, well, let's study everything. Let's not just study the parts you want us to. And if there's some dark pieces of history, let's be truthful about them. And that's what's so powerful about Jeremy Reynolds. I mean, he just wanted to know the truth. One of the things that's most impactful for me is to see Jeremy Reynolds and his questions. When he writes his letter to the church asking these questions, he just wanted some answers. I mean, he's so studious that he found things or gaps that were bothering him, and he just wanted to be able to reconcile them. He wasn't looking to lead the church. He was looking for answers. And their answer was to excommunicate him and to shun him in hopes to preserve the members that might be following him. And it's just not right. Transparency is lacking. It's getting better. But there's so many things that they just cannot answer. And you start stacking them one on top of the other, and all of a sudden you realize that, hey, this isn't right. And, you know, so what I would tell somebody who's searching or seeking or feels like maybe they're too old. You're never too old. Never too old or never too young. Just be transparent. Let's all just look for the truth in what we're studying, what we're teaching, what we're preaching. It's pretty simple.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] Yeah.

Derren Klein [00:59:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] Love it. All right.

Derren Klein [00:59:41] Yeah.

Resources, Closing Thoughts, and Farewell

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Well, Brian, let me give you a chance to plug Benchmark books and to tell our viewers and listeners what books or resources they might be able to consult to learn more about the second anointing.

Derren Klein [00:59:56] Sure.

Brian Buchanan [00:59:56] So a couple things that we talked about last time. Let's mention those again. Is first, a book called the Mysteries of Godliness by David Berger that is a narrative history of of temple things. It is skewed a little more towards the topics of the endowment. And the second anointing because the book was based off two articles that he did on those topics. But that's really interesting because it will give you it'll sort of put a bunch of nuts and bolts together. But if you're like me, I love the nuts and bolts, too. So much of his research, his RA research was published in three volumes published by signature books called Joseph Smith's Quorum of the Anointed, the very earliest period, then the novel endowment companies, the second period, and then a really, really interesting period, the development of LDS temple worship that goes from 1846 up to 2000. So this is where you'll see a lot of pieces of this story that we've talked about, both in kind of raw, undigested form and digested form. But the fun part of history is always finding new sources that will revise, change, nuance, conclusions. And that's part of the ongoing story. And that depends on finding things like this because this is a ritual that has been associated with secrecy for most of its time. It depends on things coming to light. And these are things that you may have in your house right now. And as those things come to light, we'll have better history.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] I love it. All right, well this has been so amazing. I'm just going to remind people one more time this is just one of a multi part series. In second Anointing week on Mormon Stories, we've got Brian Buchanan's fabulous two hour history of the LDS Church. Second Anointing, we're going to be releasing the Tom Phillips episode on YouTube in full. We really recommend that as well as the Hans Mattson second Anointing discussion that we're going to be releasing. And then we hope to have Tom Phillips back for a follow up for sort of a where are they now? So make sure you check all of that out as well. And yeah, and visit Brian at Benchmark Books. Shout out to them. And Darren, thanks so much for your courage and willingness to share your story and share these documents. And by the way, it'd be great if we could scan these things.

Derren Klein [01:02:33] Definitely. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] Put them up on the website so that people can access them.

Derren Klein [01:02:37] Like I said before, thank you for having me. And hopefully somebody who listens to this might benefit from it the way I have.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Yeah.

Derren Klein [01:02:45] So.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] All right, well, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Thanks for your support. Please like this episode, Please subscribe on YouTube, on Facebook, and thanks to all the donors that make the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories possible. If you aren't a donor, value this content. We lose donors every year, every month, every week, because people who are recurring donors have to cancel or need to cancel or want to cancel. And if we don't replace them, then we have to start cutting back. So if you value what we do, you want to see continue, you can always go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor and we'll keep doing good things. Thanks again, Darren. Thanks again, Brian.

Brian Buchanan [01:03:28] Brian, your podcast again is the Sunstone Mormon History Podcast.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] It's a good one, right?

Brian Buchanan [01:03:34] We are currently in early Utah and so talking about 20th century things feels like that's about a bajillion years away. But we'll get there eventually. And so lots of deep dives into very specific, very fun things. So yeah, if you've listened to my voice and thought I'd like more of that in my ear, come check out that.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] All right. All right, well, thanks everyone. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.