Introducing Kevin and Jennifer Lundquist

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 20, 2025, and today we're answering the question of what happens when you feel like the Mormon Church or your high demand religion is threatening your family and you feel like you are faced with the question of church or family. Do you choose church over family or family over church? And how does that play? We're so grateful to have with us today so often many of you ask that we just never stop interviewing just normal, average, everyday Mormons. And though none of us are purely average, that's what we have for you today is normal Mormon couple. We bring to you today all the way from the golden, what is it? The Golden Gate City? What is San Francisco called?

Kevin Lundquist [00:00:58] Yeah, I think Golden State City. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Anyway, we have Kevin and Jennifer Lundquist. Hi, guys.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:01:07] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Welcome to Mormon Stories.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:01:09] Thank you.

Kevin Lundquist [00:01:09] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Yeah. And of course, I'm joined today by my partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:16] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] All right. Well, it's an important theme because we believe that people should never have to choose between family and their faith. But what happens when you feel like there are pressures in that regard? So before we jump into your stories, want to give you guys a chance to kind of share maybe an intention of why you felt like you wanted to share your Mormon story. And Kevin, I think you mentioned you want to start.

Kevin Lundquist [00:01:48] Yeah. So I think you captured it pretty well, John, that, you know, through various experiences that we've had, we felt like some of the experiences we've had with the church might resonate with members and, you know, people who are questioning their faith. And it came down to fundamentally times when the church tried to, I don't like to use the word bully us, but maybe strong arm us into various actions or decisions. And I think a little bit about, because of my upbringing, I was kind of taught at a very young age to not allow people to bully you and not to. And so I stood up for certain things and Jen did, too. And we can kind of go into some of those stories.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] What do you hope comes out of this interview? What outcome were you hoping for?

Kevin Lundquist [00:02:42] Hopefully to be able to, as we share some of our stories and things that we've had to make decisions on that people who maybe are going through the same thing that we went through, you know, namely with navigating the church with a gay son and some other things like that, some of the choices we've made that maybe it'll resonate with People who have not gone down that or are going down that road, because I feel like largely when we went through it, we went through it very alone. We had no support. You know, Mormon stories was kind of in its infancy, and, you know, I think the CES letter had just come out, and so we kind of navigated it on our own and didn't really know how that was going to end up.

Kevin Lundquist [00:03:22] And so hopefully we can resonate some of our stories and stuff in the way we handled it. Whether people stay in the church or leave the church, that's not as important as some of the things that we'll talk about.

Kevin Lundquist [00:03:37] When we were going through some of these things, we were very active. I think I was Elders Quorum president, she was young women's president. And maybe beyond will help some people that have gone through it before and make decisions that we made that we didn't know if it was the right decision, but ended up being the right decision in the end.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] I just saw. I heard a report today on the news that 1 in 10Americans now are identifying as LGBTQ. And the younger generations. I think it can be high as 20%.

Kevin Lundquist [00:04:08] I believe it.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] So if an average Mormon family has four kids, there's, like, a greater than 50% chance they're gonna have at least one LGBT kid.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:04:20] We have two.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Jennifer, did you want to add anything to the intention before we jump in?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:04:27] I think Kevin, mostly did. You know, to me, family is everything, whether it's the family we've created or our predecessors before us. So. And I feel like that's the big thing is family, and it's.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, well, let's just briefly touch on each of your Mormon upbringings, just at a super high level. We've almost done 2,000 episodes now, so give us, like, the one to two minute version of your Mormon upbringing. And, of course, if there's something that's really critical to your story, we want to make sure and give you a chance to mention it. So, Kevin, do you want. Who's older?

Kevin's Mormon Upbringing and Early Faith

Kevin Lundquist [00:05:13] I am.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] All right, you want to start, Kevin?

Kevin Lundquist [00:05:14] Yeah, sure. Yeah. I can go through it in one minute. I grew up in Los Angeles, and I had two very active parents. My dad was in the bishopric most of the time that I was growing up. My mom was young women's president, Relief Society president, primary president, everything. So we were. You know, the expectation was we go to church, but my parents weren't hardcore. Like, you know, we'd come home from church and I'd go play with all my friends. And my parents would take a nap and, you know, we'd go to primary and we'd go. We were active. The only difference in my upbringing was I was. I grew up in Los Angeles during the busing era. And so where they thought it was a good idea to integrate the public schools so.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Racially, you mean racially.

Kevin Lundquist [00:05:58] Racially, yeah. So I went to a. A public school that was, it wasn't. It was middle class. We were by no means any more than a middle class family. And we were bused into a, you know, South Central Los Angeles school where we had an English and Spanish teacher. And the outcome of that was it didn't integrate kids to be friends. It, you know, you spent your recesses and lunch fighting. And so I learned at a very early age to kind of stand up for myself, protect myself. And that was kind of the way I think I learned to navigate through life. Not in a bad way, but that was something that had a big impression on me growing up.

Kevin Lundquist [00:06:39] But as far as my LDS upbringing, my parents were, you know, I was raised by very good people, very good parents, nothing. Until I moved to Utah, I had no issues with anything in terms of, you know, I remember my bishop growing up. Very nice man, very kind. I was a little bit on the edge. I had my ears pierced. I had longer hair. And in California, that played out very well.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Were you, like, into skateboarding or surfing or any of that kind of stuff?

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:05] I was a skater.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:06] I guess you'd consider me kind of a rocker, although I didn't really. And I'll go through a couple of experiences. When I moved to Utah, I didn't really identify with any one group, but in California, having long hair and pierced ears, nobody really cared. My bishop let me pass the sacrament, let me bless the sacrament, whatever. He just didn't really care. He was more looking at what kind of individual are you and are you kind of following the rules.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Would you say that through graduating high school you had a positive Mormon experience? Jennifer's laughing.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:07:41] Sorry.

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:42] So

Jennifer Lundquist [00:07:45] he was here. He was in Utah for high school.

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:49] Halfway through high school.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Okay. Okay. So, okay, pre Utah, how was your Mormon experience?

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:55] Good.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] Anything worth mentioning?

Kevin Lundquist [00:07:58] No.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Okay, so you move here, what, your junior year in high school?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:02] School.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Which high school?

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:04] Brighton.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Brighton. That's just right down the road.

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:07] Yeah, no, it's actually my sophomore year. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] And then did something change in terms of the church or your family or you?

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:14] Yeah, a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] Did you cut your hair or did

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:16] you keep your long hair?

John Dehlin [00:08:17] So, okay, Jennifer's Laughing again.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:20] Let's get to the. Really, Harris, did you cut your hair?

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:24] So I'll. I'll share my first experience. That was kind of my first experience with how members of the church can be. So I moved to Utah. I hadn't taken Early Morning Seminary in California just because I didn't want to get up and do it.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] You have release time in Utah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:43] Exactly. So I move here.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Which means you go during your high school classes.

Kevin Lundquist [00:08:48] Right. And I wanted to take advantage of that. I moved here. I didn't really have an opinion one way or another of the churches. My parents moved us here because of the environment in LA and all that, and we were starting to get in a little trouble, especially my sister. So we moved here, and I thought, well, I'll take seminary. Why not? It's during. You know, it's one class I don't have to take.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] So I enrolled in seminary academic class.

Kevin Lundquist [00:09:13] I was kind of excited about it, actually. So I show up to seminary the first day, and I sit through, and I guess I can say his name, Brother Tate. He's this little, small man that taught. And they were teaching Doctrine and Covenants. So I sat through the first class, and I got up and walked out, and he came and caught me in the hall, and he said, hey, Brother Lundquist, just want to let you know that your hair's not appropriate for my class. And I said, okay, duly noted. Thanks. And he said. And that was all he said. So I left. Didn't even think twice about it. Come back the next day. And he catches me after. And he said, I thought I told you your hair wasn't appropriate for my class. And I said, you did?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:54] Wow.

Kevin Lundquist [00:09:55] And he said, no, it's not a missionary standard. I said, I'm 15. I'm not a missionary. And he said, well, I want you to cut your hair before you come back to class.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:10:05] Whoa.

Kevin Lundquist [00:10:06] And I said, you know, my bishop is okay with it. My dad's okay with it. I think it's up to them and not up to you. And he said, well, I've told you what my expectation is. I said, okay. So I walked across the campus and went to the admissions office, and I told the admissions counselor, I said, I need to drop seminary. And she said, why? And I told her, and she's like, oh, my gosh, really? And she's like, I can try to put you in another class. And I said, no, I don't. I'm done. I'm done with seminary. I'm gonna. And so it was.

Kevin Lundquist [00:10:38] And I Didn't leave that as a bitter experience. It was just like, whatever, I don't really care. And so I took a weightlifting class, but it was a weightlifting class with all the athletes, football players and all that, and actually turned out really good. I'm this 6 foot 1, 135 pound guy that, you know, they have to move all the weights off for me to do my weights.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] The bar, basically, we have one small

Kevin Lundquist [00:11:01] plate and the bar. But I actually became friends with a lot of the football players, the quarterback, you know, and some of them became my good friends in high school. And it was nice to not have to put myself in any one category. So I had friends that were skaters. I had friends that were. I don't know what you'd call them. Punks, I guess. Punk rockers or whatever. And I had jock friends. And so it was actually a good integration. But I went home and I told my dad and he was not happy. He was like, I'm going back to that school. They don't tell my kid what to do.

Kevin Lundquist [00:11:34] And, you know, at that point I was living the gospel. I wasn't doing anything wrong. And I told him, I'm like, no, because worst case scenario, you're going to go back and you're going to get me back in that class. And I don't want to sit there with this guy. And so I never went back to seminary again.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] And then how did your testimony survive high school? Or did.

Kevin Lundquist [00:11:57] Did. I wasn't super active. I kind of went into the more skater. Like, I think the jocks liked me because I could get him weed and stuff like that, so. And I wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Wait, people smoked weed in Utah?

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:11] Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:12:11] What? Haven't you heard? Brighton is where you get the drugs.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] What?

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:15] No, I didn't eat.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:12:16] No, no. But that's what we at Hillcrest used to say is Brighton can afford drugs.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] What year did you graduate High School?

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:25] 85.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] 85.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:26] 85.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] This is in the 80s. They're smoking weed at Brighton High School. I had no idea.

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:30] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Okay. All right.

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] So you were the supplier to the football team. Anything else you want to say before we.

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:38] No, high school was pretty normal.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] Did. Did you end up serving a mission?

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:43] I did.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] How did. So how did you get on a mission from a weed smoking hippie? Basically. Skater, skater, hippie.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:12:50] So he looked like a rocker?

Kevin Lundquist [00:12:51] Yeah, I had long turn. I. I was dating a girl that I. So I did deviate from the church. I wasn't a choir boy in high school. I had A couple of friends that were female. And I started dating this girl that was a cheerleader at byu and I really liked her and I knew that her kind of, you know, she wasn't going to marry me if I didn't serve a mission. And I'd started coming back into the church a little bit because I was pretty active, inactive.

Kevin Lundquist [00:13:24] And I went to my bishop, who he was okay, but he wasn't my favorite guy. He was kind of black and white. And I'll explain why that matters later. But he says, well, you have to go through the repentance process to get on a mission.

Kevin Lundquist [00:13:41] I said, all right, fine, I'll go through that. And he says, well, it's a six month process. I had to meet with the stake president. And the stake president said, well, there's one more hoop you have to go through to go on a mission because you've been not a perfect angel. And he says, you have to go meet with the general authority.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Yeah, back in the day, if you had sex before your mission, you had to meet with the general authority before you could go on your mission.

Kevin Lundquist [00:14:04] Yeah, I don't think it's still that

John Dehlin [00:14:06] way, but it was then, I don't know.

Kevin Lundquist [00:14:07] So I made a request to my stake president because I had always liked Paul Dunn growing up. I'd always listened to his stories and stuff. And I said, well, could I meet him? And he's like, well, I don't know, I'll see.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] You can pick your celebrities you want.

Kevin Lundquist [00:14:19] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] It's like a reward instead of a passion.

Kevin Lundquist [00:14:22] Well, so. So he calls me back and he goes, yeah, Elder Dunn will meet with you. I was like, okay. So I went and met with him and you know, whatever people think about him, that's fine. He was extremely kind to me. He was. And I'll go into why, you know, the influence he had on she and I later and stuff. But I went in there all scared about, you know, oh my gosh, I'm going to get grilled. And I spent an hour with him and he was at the church administration office. This was before all the fallout, and he'd been pushed to emeritus status. But after. Before. Oh, before.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Before, yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:14:57] So he was still a general authority. He was in the administration building on some of the. On the floor with some of the apostles. And he spent about an hour with me talking about, like, what are your life goals? You know, what are you going to do in college? What are you going to do? You know, you didn't go on your mission and all that. And do you want to go internationally? And I was like, yes, I really want to go overseas. And he's like, okay. And at the end, he said. He said, I'm not gonna ask you any questions. I just wanna know if you feel like you've repented and can you serve a mission for the Savior with a clean, you know, a clean spirit. And I said, yes. And he said, okay, that's all I need to know.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] You're making me wish I had had sex before my mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:36] Basically sounds like a cool experience, the important part. And met with Paul Dunn or the

John Dehlin [00:15:43] general authority of my choice.

Kevin Lundquist [00:15:44] Right, of your choice.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:15:45] Who's your general authority?

Kevin Lundquist [00:15:46] And so I left, and he wrote me a couple times on. And they were genuine. Like, they were genuine letters that, you know, they weren't very long, and I think it was only three times. But he specifically told me, he goes, when you get home, I want you to come meet with me. And so I serve my mission in Cape Town, South Africa.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] For those who don't know, it's just worth mentioning that once upon a time, Paul H. Dunn was probably the most popular general authority in the Mormon Church because he was a fantastic, charismatic storyteller. And if you walked into any of the church bookstores, Deseret Book, there'd be a whole wall of cassette tapes of different stories. Paul H. Dunn talked about his gave about his career as a professional baseball player and about his service in World War II.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And when I was at BYU, a feisty reporter discovered that a lot of the inspiring stories that Paul H. Dunn was telling, that he was, you know, selling all these tapes about, weren't actually true, that he didn't really serve in the wars he claimed to serve in. In the ways he claimed to serve. He didn't really play major league baseball.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] And so. And Lynn Packer was the reporter. And we've actually done a few episodes on Mormon stories about Paul H. Dunn that are really worth checking out. But I'll say. And everyone I've talked to that actually met him and got to know him said he was an amazing, kind, smart, thoughtful, progressive leader.

Paul Dunn and General Authority Tall Tales

John Dehlin [00:17:30] So it's just kind of a paradox. And the only other thing I heard is that by no stretch was he the only general authority that told tall tales as a general authority, but that maybe one of the reasons why he was railroaded and turned into emeritus status was because some of the other church leaders were jealous of his popularity. So, anyway, I don't mean to sort of get us sidetracked, but every year there's a whole New cohort of people that don't know any of these stories. And I just go dig up stuff on Paul Dunn. Go read the Sunstone articles on Paul Dunn. Go listen to our episodes. Go read Lynn Packer's book about Paul Dunn. It's fascinating. Anyway, do you all agree? Is that okay? Do you agree with that?

Kevin Lundquist [00:18:16] I mean, I can tell you one more story when I got home.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:18:18] Yeah, I. I served a mission, and I. I didn't have a testimony. I just went because my mom was one of those, oh, my only son won't go on a mission. I'm a failure.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] You said South Africa, right?

Kevin Lundquist [00:18:28] South Africa. That's cool. That's great.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] That's apartheid kind of South Africa.

Kevin Lundquist [00:18:32] It was apartheid. I. I actually took a Book of Mormon to. I was serving in the area. Well, where Nelson Mandela was in prison, and I took a Book of Mormon and. And I don't know if he ever got it. I obviously never met him, but I got a. I met him later in life actually through something, but I didn't meet him. Then I left a Book of Mormon for him. I don't know if he ever got it. It was in his Xhosa native tongue.

Kevin Lundquist [00:18:55] But it was a good experience. My mission president was not a typical mission president. He was really, really a good man. He inspired me to be better. I had a couple experiences on my mission where I realized I didn't know anything about the church. And it was. It put me at a real disadvantage with investigators. And so I kind of. In high school, I wasn't the best student and barely graduated. And I got on my mission and I kind of got humiliated in a discussion with someone my first week. And I promised that would never, ever happen again. And so I spent hours studying. I mean, I would stay up till two in the morning studying, studying the Scriptures.

Kevin Lundquist [00:19:32] I read all four standard works. I read articles of faith, Jesus, the Christ, everything. And I. And that taught me a discipline that I think I took with the rest of my life to study and stuff like that. But it was a really good experience for me. My mission was. And my mission president was just. He was just. It's just like, you know, here's the rule. Here's certain rules you can't break. Everything else is up for negotiation.

Kevin Lundquist [00:19:57] And so. And interesting enough, he died a couple years ago and lived. He lives about. Lived about 60 miles from us. So we went to his funeral and it was just, you know, it was a celebration of a man who. He was just a really good guy. He really was

Mission Experiences and Racial Policy in South Africa

John Dehlin [00:20:18] Were you allowed to teach and baptize black people on your mission?

Kevin Lundquist [00:20:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Or was that discouraged?

Kevin Lundquist [00:20:23] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:20:24] I served in one of the first black areas called Mtada, which is a. It's a centralized, self contained state within South Africa. And I spent about six months there teaching only black people. And it was okay to do it in those stakes or in those wards, but in the white Afrikaner wards, they weren't accepted. They don't want black people coming in.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] So the Mormon white Afrikaner wards did not want black converts brought into their wards?

Kevin Lundquist [00:20:56] No. And it wasn't, it wasn't. It was just the. It's hard to explain if you don't understand the dynamics of apartheid. Black people really were viewed as second class citizen. It wasn't like the civil rights here. It was way worse. And so you couldn't really fault them for it. Although in certain wards where we did convert black people into the white wards, they tried to integrate them and they tried to do the right thing. It's just the cultural differences were so different that it was hard for them. So I don't fault the people, people of South Africa for that. It's just kind of the way it was, the culture.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:35] I have a quick follow up with regard to. So your high school years, where you were talking about how, let's just say you maybe differentiated from the church a little bit, had some distance from. Is that how you would, you would kind of talk about it?

Kevin Lundquist [00:21:51] Yeah, I was largely inactive. I didn't go to church a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:54] So during that time, how did your parents approach your, like that differentiation? Did you still, behavior wise, show up in a way that, you know, was, let's just say, in line with your family system and your parents, or did you differentiate and then what was your experience of, let's just say, feeling valued and loved by your parents as you did? So. Yeah,

Kevin Lundquist [00:22:27] so I had a sister who had a lot of problems, a lot of problems. Way more problems than I had. And so my parents spent a lot of time dealing with her. Okay. They were focused on, is this high school pregnancy? Yeah. Two years older, high school pregnancy, drugs, all kinds of stuff, getting arrested. And so everything I did kind of paled in comparison and I kind of flew under the radar a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:48] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:22:49] But I never had a disconnect relationship with my parents.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:52] Okay, so they still stayed emotionally connected to you during that time?

Kevin Lundquist [00:22:58] Yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:58] Yeah, that's really something.

Kevin Lundquist [00:23:00] Like, even, even my dad, like. And my dad was my best friend forever, you know, and he, he found out Some of the stuff I was doing. And he just told me once, he said, you know, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm not going to try to govern your life. But he said, with these friends, just don't get anybody pregnant. Because he. We just lived through it with my sister. And he's like, just, I don't care what else you do. And, and the other stipulation is like, you have to graduate from high school.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:33] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:23:33] I don't care what else you do. Yes, you have to graduate from high school. And I said, I will graduate from high school and I will not get in trouble in that regard. But my relationship with my parents never, like, deteriorated. I've always gotten along with my parents. You know, they've always been super supportive through everything that we've done in life. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:53] So a little bit of a family first approach from your parents.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:23:57] Exactly. Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:23:59] I think my mom.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:23:59] His mom doesn't go to the celestial kingdom. No one will. No, she's just. They both were very amazing. Are very amazing.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:06] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:07] I think they kind of took the attitude that eventually, you know, he'll work through whatever he's got to work through and he'll come back. Which I did when I was a teenager.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:17] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:17] And I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't doing anything. You know, I wasn't getting arrested. I wasn't doing. I smoked weed and I think they knew that, but I didn't. It wasn't like a central focus of my life and I didn't do any other drugs.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:29] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:29] So I was, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't drinking. I was just, you know, I played in a band and I worked and school just wasn't the high priority and church wasn't the high priority. I wasn't, I wasn't like against the church or anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:41] Yeah, you just had a very full life.

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:44] Yeah. It just wasn't a priority.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:45] Got it.

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] So by the time your mission's over, how strong is your testimony?

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:52] Super strong.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Okay. So you were in it to win it at that time?

Kevin Lundquist [00:24:55] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was full in. I totally converted myself on my mission. And I think I knew I could argue or debate or talk with anybody about. I knew more about Joseph Smith than I thought anybody did because I read everything. And my mission president was a really good experience example for me because he was a scriptorian. He had a photographic memory. He could read something and I mean, quote it and. But not in a. Not in a way that was like condescending he was just very good about teaching and you know, really, really kind of brought that out on me. Even I even told him, I said, you know, I don't obey all the mission rules. I stay up till, you know, 12, 1 o' clock in the morning studying and sometimes I don't get up till 8. And he's like, I don't really care what you do.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:42] Can we just note that? Because I do feel like with both your parents and your mission and president, you had adults or people in authority over you that actually had an approach that was like, okay, but here are a couple things that we really care about and then the rest we're gonna just let you be human with. And that feels very rare.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:26:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:02] And you know, can we just like call out that approach as something that is rarer and appreciated?

Kevin Lundquist [00:26:08] Yeah. One of the things I remember about my mission president because I served most of my mission on the coast and I lived in an area where. And I'm a runner, always been a runner, where we lived right on the Indian Ocean. I mean, right on. And I said to my mission president, I said, you know, I'll go running up and down the coast to run in the morning and I'll sometimes jump in the water. And he said, don't do that. I said, really? He's like, no. He's like, that's one rule I'm gonna tell you. Do not go in the water. And he said, it's not because Satan has control of the water or anything like that. He said, if there's an accident, I don't wanna have to call your parents and tell them that I allowed you to violate the rules and you died because of it.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] And there were missionaries on my mission that died on the lake. So I mean there's.

Kevin Lundquist [00:26:54] And so when he said something like that, I respected it. I'm like, okay. And I would tell him, like if, is it okay if I run, like splash up to my knees and stuff? He's like, yeah, as long as you're not swimmin doing anything that's going to risk you.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:05] Very reasonable.

Kevin Lundquist [00:27:06] Oh, absolutely. Reasonable.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] So I'm guessing by the end of your mission you would have said it was probably the most important thing you did in your life up to that point.

Kevin Lundquist [00:27:15] It was because it helped. Like, like when I. When I graduated from high school, I graduated a 2.0. I barely graduated. And I think I learned a lot of the things on my mission that helped me when I. I mean, like right after I got home from my mission, I went On, I went onto college, and I graduated with almost a 4.0.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Where'd you go?

Kevin Lundquist [00:27:34] University of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Okay, what'd you study?

Kevin Lundquist [00:27:37] Accounting and finance.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Did you do the institute there? No, didn't do the institute?

Kevin Lundquist [00:27:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] How'd you stay. Did you join the Greeks? Did you. How'd you stay on the narrow.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:27:48] He followed the mission role of get married right away.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] Okay, all right. That's where we segue. Jennifer, tell us quickly about your Mormon story.

Jennifer's Mormon Upbringing and Story

Jennifer Lundquist [00:27:57] Mine is much less fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] I. I wouldn't say that.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:28:02] No, it was. You know, I had great parents that were also in the church. They weren't the type that said no caffeine. I mean, when we had neighbors that had a headache, they'd come to our house to get a Coke to help their headache. And, you know, after church, we'd get in the car, go to Baskin Robbins, and go for a ride in the mountains on Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] You'd go to Baskin Robbins on Sunday?

Kevin Lundquist [00:28:23] We would do that.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Y' all both had cool parents.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:28:25] My parents were amazing. I mean, their best friends. Friends on our streets were the Catholics, you know, so they taught us early that you don't have to be Mormon to be a good person. And this was in Utah. I mean, if you're not in Utah, I think that's more of a normal mindset.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:38] But in Utah.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:28:39] In Utah, you know, people are like, well, you know, I had one. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, if you hang out with the non Mormons, they're going to get you to drink and do drugs and have sex. And my parents didn't have that attitude. My mom always said, we're teaching you what we feel is right, and you're either gonna follow it or not follow it.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] Was this Murray area?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:28:59] No, I grew up in Sandy. Our parents are actually in the same ward, but he got to go to Brighton High School, and I went to Hillcrest High School.

Kevin Lundquist [00:29:06] Her dad was in the bishopric when I served my mission, so he would write me little notes once in a while. So I knew her parents.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:29:13] Yeah. And I was the girl in the ward that all the mothers wanted their sons to marry, but none of the sons were interested in because I was the typical Molly Mormon. You know, I did lunch seminary because I had too many classes, and. And then I was on seminary council, you know, young adult.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] You're talking about it like a stroll in drag.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:29:31] I know, right? I was the young adult rep in our ward when he got home from his mission.

Kevin Lundquist [00:29:35] You were also my mom's home teacher, visiting Me.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:29:38] She would visit me. Oh, yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:29:40] Cause I got home from my mission and I was dating the same girl that was a cheerleader. And my mom was like, oh, you need to date this Jennifer Ball. And I met her once. I was like, no.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:29:50] And here we are.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:51] So I'm hearing committed from you.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:29:54] I was hearing. I never deviated from the straight and narrow at all. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:58] And also excellence in there.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:30:01] Well, I tried. I definitely was in, you know, full on testimony. I was. My prayers every night were, please help my family make it to the celestial kingdom for families only. I mean, that was always my top priority. I'm going there and I was going to do whatever it took to get there.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Did you enjoy your Mormon upbringing? Like, it sounds like you were doing all the things.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:30:24] I really did. And again, I credit my parents to having have a diversified friendship base. Like, I had a friend that was a Protestant and she said that her parents loved her to be friends with the Mormons because they did the good things. And then, like, my best friend in high school was a total slut. I remember she can't say that she had her eyes set on this guy she sexually explored.

Kevin Lundquist [00:30:47] That's what she says about me, too. So just so you know.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:30:50] But she had her sights set on a guy that I had dated the year before. And she's like, oh, he's so cute. And I'm like, he has a goal of going on a mission, and if you do anything to ruin that, we will not be friends anymore. She's like, okay, I respect that, Dooley. Noted.

Kevin Lundquist [00:31:05] You'll have to meet a general authority.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:31:08] Huh?

Kevin Lundquist [00:31:08] He'll have to meet a general authority if you mess with him.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:31:11] Yeah. So, you know, I just. I. But, you know, I definitely, like I said, I did all the things. Went to Young Women's every week. The only thing I wouldn't do is church camp. I did that once year and it was miserable. And so I never went back. But.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] So any big sort of conflict or drama in your Mormon story up until. Okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:31:31] No. I live the typical Utah Mormon life.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] So why would you go to Satan's University, the University of Utah?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:31:37] Because my parents have red blood and they taught me that way. I actually did get accepted to byu, but when it came down to it, I was like, why am I spending the money to go down there when I can just live at home and go to the University of Utah and have my parents love me?

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Because it's the Lord's university.

Kevin Lundquist [00:31:51] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Right, Margi?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:31:55] But I did go to Institute. I was involved in the LDS sorority up there. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] University of Utah, for those who don't know, has sororities and fraternities. BYU doesn't. They have clubs, but it's just not the same. So. Greek life?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:32:11] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:32:11] What was your sorority?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:32:12] It was Lambda Delta Sigma. Wait, no, that's the whole thing. That's lds. It was Alpha Theta Chi. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:18] And what are they known for?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:32:21] I honestly don't remember, but I felt like that the sorority was basically young women's on a bigger level.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:27] Oh, really?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:32:28] Yeah, we'd go to activities and there was usually some kind of little lesson before we'd have fun.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:33] Okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:32:33] But.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] All right. Okay. Okay. Well, that was fast. I don't want to give your. Did you feel like you had a super strong testimony?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:32:42] I did. I did, yeah. And I mean, I'd had, you know, some very significant spiritual experiences, especially in high school and mostly high school. But yeah, I mean.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:55] When you went to the U, were you thinking that you, like, would you say that you were ambitious and driven to get an education?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:33:04] Oh, yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:04] For an education's sake or. Okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:33:06] My mom is very, very feminine. I don't wanna say feminist like in the negative, but she was very. You need to know how to support yourself if you do get married. You don't know if your husband's gonna be able to support you. I mean, so she was like, you need to get your college education. In fact, I was in middle school or high school by the time my mom got her degree. And she had been a stay at home mom. And there were things with my brother's health that caused her to be like, I need to get back into the workforce. And so, you know, she led by example. Right. And yeah. So I was. And she's like, you need to get your degree. Don't be like me and get it afterwards. Which I failed to do. I got my degree when my youngest was four or three.

Kevin Lundquist [00:33:52] Yeah, but you did what you wanted.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:33:53] But I did what I wanted. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:55] Yeah.

Courtship, Marriage, and Early Married Life

John Dehlin [00:33:56] All right. So is there anything about your courtship, your marriage or your early marriage years that are kind of really important to the story?

Kevin Lundquist [00:34:05] So I got home and I went and saw Paul H. Dunn, and I was dating this girl, cheerleader, byu. Really, really sweet. And. And I said to him, she waited for you.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:34:18] Waited?

Kevin Lundquist [00:34:19] Yeah, kind of.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:34:19] She dated?

Kevin Lundquist [00:34:20] Yeah. I didn't tell her.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] In other words, she didn't get married, right?

Kevin Lundquist [00:34:23] No. And we started dating. And she was from American Fork, big family, you know, didn't. I would go to dinner, their dinners. And they'd be like, why are you wasting time with education? We work at Hercules and make $12 an hour. And, you know, we're. We're making money.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] What's Hercules?

Kevin Lundquist [00:34:41] Some. I think it was a mining company down in South.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:34:45] It's a big thing down there because my uncle and cousin both worked for Hercules the mines.

Kevin Lundquist [00:34:52] And so I said to Elder Dunn, I said, you know, I want to travel the world. I want to do. I have all these goals. And he said, I think your heart is telling you that that's never going to happen with this girl. Because I told her that. And she's like, well, I don't want to move. I want Sunday dinners with my family of 20 people.

Kevin Lundquist [00:35:09] And so I ended up breaking up with her. And it was amicable and we stayed friends. As a matter of fact, a year later, she called me and said she was going on a mission and wanted me to come to her farewell. So we did.

Kevin Lundquist [00:35:21] But, you know, I wasn't looking for a wife. She wasn't looking for a husband. But we ended up meeting and started dating. And I think the only thing that was really significant is that same bishop was pretty hardcore with me. I don't think he liked me. And so, you know, we're dating, we're engaged now, and we're trying to make sure that we can go to the temple. And that was both our goals.

Kevin Lundquist [00:35:45] And we were struggling, but not anything more than I think most couples do. But my bishop was like, if you pet, you're not going to the temple. You're going to deny her a temple marriage if you do this, this. And I was like, stressed about it. So I went in and saw. We went in and saw Paul Dunn, and he had told me, he goes, when you find that right person, I'd love to seal you in the temple.

Kevin Lundquist [00:36:07] So we went in and talked to him, and he goes, how's it going? And I kind of told him, you know, I'm like, we're struggling a little bit. And he's like, well, he's like, let me tell you this. He's like, God doesn't expect you guys to go from holding hands the morning you wake up, get married, and then having sex. He's like, he knows you're gonna do stuff. And I was like, okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:27] You're like, this is a different version.

Kevin Lundquist [00:36:29] No, it's totally.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:36:30] I'm getting from my bishop, by the

Kevin Lundquist [00:36:31] way, it was so amazing because I felt so bad and so guilty and we weren't doing anything crazy. But I said, okay, can you elaborate on that? And he said, yeah. When I was a bishop, if I had a couple that was getting ready to go to the temple that had gone up to and beyond oral sex, he said, then I would deny them the temple. And he says, but up until then, he's like, God again. God doesn't expect you guys to just go from holding hands. And. And that kind of took all the guilt away because I was like, okay, we can live within those boundaries. That's fine. No big deal. And then I went, you know, and we did. And I felt like when we went to the temple, I felt like we were in a good place.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] That's interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:15] It is interesting, I have to say.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:37:17] I mean, and I had a different experience with our bishop than he did because he was a family friend, you know, he always treated me well. But the one thing that he did that bothered me is when we would have those interviews, he would always blame Kevin, like, you're going to ruin this. You know, as if I was a non participant ever. Like, you know, of course I would be pristine and wonderful, but he would be awful interesting. And that's one thing that really bothered me.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:41] Yeah, I get that.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:37:43] I mean, I still love the guy. Like I said, he's a family friend.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] Why did that bother you?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:37:47] It bothered me because it was not giving me any ownership for my own actions. It takes two to tango, as they say. And so why would it be his fault if we did do something wrong?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:00] Yeah, and it's kind of too like you're devoid of sexual feeling. Like clearly you. You know what I mean, there's some assumption there.

Kevin Lundquist [00:38:07] Right, right.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:08] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:38:09] So I went back to the bishop and I just said, we talked to Elder Dunn about it. And he's. We're talking to him about it and we're good. And he never said another word. And so, you know, it was a special day for us though, because we met him in the temple and all of our family was in. We had a, you know, the biggest ceiling room you can find. And we're walking down the hall to get into the ceiling room, and he meets us in the hall and he says, come with me. And he takes us up into the celestial room and talks for about 15 minutes about, you know, the church and the significance of the temple.

Kevin Lundquist [00:38:44] But then he starts giving us counsel about, you know, you guys are going to get engulfed in your, you know, school and family and all that. And he said, don't lose sight of each other. And he said, I remember when we were early on married that, you know, my wife and I didn't have two nickels to rub together and we fell into that category. And he said we would find ways to date that didn't cost anything. We would go up in the mountains and go for a hike or we'd go look at the stars up in the mountains. And that was really good advice for us because we did get engulfed in that.

Kevin Lundquist [00:39:17] You know, each of us had jobs, we were full time school, we had our first son, the start of my senior year. And so it was a good experience. And, you know, he sealed us and then he left. And that was the last time we ever saw him.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:32] Really.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Do you like. It wouldn't have been much after that that he would have been exposed as

Kevin Lundquist [00:39:39] it was when I was on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Oh, so he sealed you after he had been made emeritus. Did you know about that? Had you heard about that on your mission and did that affect you?

Kevin Lundquist [00:39:54] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] Because he had been just. Because he had been kind to you?

Kevin Lundquist [00:39:57] Yeah, he'd just been so kind. And when we got home, he was working a job and I think it was an investment company. I don't know what exactly we was doing, but we'd go meet with him in his office and he was just genuine and nice and kind. And at least as we were going through it, when he sealed us in the temple and was talking to us in the temple, I. I felt like, you know, I felt like he was a genuinely kind person that cared about us and whatever he'd done, you know, I've always, up to that point believed that nobody's perfect and he's done enough good that whatever wrongs he's done will be offset. And I just go on based on the experience that we had with him, which was very good.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:40] I love how those moments of care, true care that you experience within a system, how you know how deeply meaningful they can be.

Kevin Lundquist [00:40:52] Yeah, no, we left that with a very good experience. And I have a crazy aunt that came from California to our wedding just because he was sealing us. She was like. He was like. I mean, he was like a rock star to her. And he was very kind to her, very, very nice to her and very nice to our family and just, you know, just a. Just good experience.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] That's great. So he didn't mention any of that scandal to you?

Kevin Lundquist [00:41:19] We didn't talk about it. I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] That makes sense.

Kevin Lundquist [00:41:21] I didn't really want to know. I knew about it, but I didn't really, you know, and my mission president Said something about it, and he's like, you know, don't believe everything you hear. Go based on what your experience has been with him. Because my mission president knew him.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] Oh.

Kevin Lundquist [00:41:35] And when I got my call, I went and saw him and told him where I was going. He's like, oh, Reed Snow, he's the mission president you'll ever have.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Oh, wow.

Kevin Lundquist [00:41:44] Yeah. So he knew. At least knew of him. I don't know if they were best friends or anything, but they knew of each other.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] Nice.

Kevin Lundquist [00:41:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] All right. Anything else about your courtship or early marriage that's worth mentioning?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:41:57] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] How were those early years as a devout Mormon couple?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:42:05] I felt like we had some great experiences. Like, we were, of course, in the student ward. My students have. Course. Okay. We were living in the University Village, so we were in a student ward. And we had opportunity to spend. Was it six months at the hospital. Yeah. They had us have a calling where we would go do the sacrament for the people at the hospital. And I felt like, you know, we wouldn't have gotten that experience had we been anywhere else, but I thought that. I wish we could have done it longer. That was an amazing experience.

Kevin Lundquist [00:42:34] And one of the things that we would do is they would have us go into the psych ward at the University of Utah. Yeah. Which was pretty serious. I mean, it's behind locked doors and everything. And we'd go there and we'd meet with people that were struggling with their mental health significantly. And I think it just taught us a lot of compassion. It's like, I don't care what their situation is. You know, we're providing the sacrament for them. And, you know, we'd sit there and talk to them for a little while. And there were other people that had been in there. I remember this one guy that had.

Kevin Lundquist [00:43:06] He had brain surgery. He wasn't in the psych ward, but he was in the hospital. And he was there for quite a while. And we kind of became friends with him. He looked forward to us coming every week. And it was such a deviation because we would go. The branch there at the University of Utah would have. You know, they'd wheel people in, or the people that could go to church would come to church, but it was very small. It was like 20 minutes. It was very quick.

Kevin Lundquist [00:43:29] You have the sacraments. Usually the district president or branch president would say a few words and then you leave. And we would go to the people who couldn't come to church and. And give them the sacrament, and that was what we did. For it was longer than it was, probably the better part of a year. We did that.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:43:45] Oh, yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:43:46] And so we never went to a normal church or normal, you know, sacrament. Young women, young men. We just went to the University of Utah and spent the time at the ward. And that was. That was really good. We really enjoyed that.

Shared Goals, Gender Roles, and Mormon Milestones

John Dehlin [00:43:59] When y' all got married, what was the either explicit or implied agreement as to the major milestones you would achieve or seek to achieve in your life, kind of how your life would play out? Does that make sense?

Kevin Lundquist [00:44:17] Yeah. We both had education goals. Mine was I either wanted to go to law school or I wanted to do an MBA and go in the corporate world, which is what I've done. And so I think she was doing an accounting degree and then worked for a CPA firm and just hated it and came home one day and said, I'm quitting. I'm not doing this anymore.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:44:39] Well, part of that, though is at this time, this is before the CPA firm, I was. I don't think I told him all of my reasonings, but I was working for a home health care company at the administrative office and there were nurses there. And so I would hear their stories and I thought, I think I really want to do that. And then, yeah, when I started working at the accounting firm, I'm like, yeah, I think I need to switch tracks to the nursery.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:00] Good for you.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:45:01] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] So education, what else would be Mormon milestones for you?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:45:06] Mormon milestones. I don't feel like I had any. It was just to float along. I mean, I know that they feel.

John Dehlin [00:45:12] I feel like in the church, kids.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:45:13] We had kids, we knew we wanted kids.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] That's what I mean, like church attendance.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:45:17] Yeah. And we. I mean, we dragged our baby to church just like every other new parents got em blessed and we moved. I didn't care what callings I would have. I knew that. I know that you know, Mormonville. Oh, if you make it to the elder quorum president or young women's president or whatever, you're wonderful. I didn't have those goals. Yes, I did achieve. I did become women's president in the primary presidency and stuff, but those were my goals.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] But I mean, were you both committed to lifelong membership?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:45:48] Yeah, again, I'm dragging my family to celestial kingdom. We're gonna be up there if it kills us.

Kevin Lundquist [00:45:54] We moved to Sandy after. After I graduated. I got a job before I did my MBA and we moved to Sandy and I was probably 25 and I was the youngest one in the ward by years. And I Got called to be Elders Quorum president, which was an interesting.

Kevin Lundquist [00:46:14] I remember our stake president, who was like, as black and white as you can get, and later became a general authority because that's what he wanted. And he called me, and it was Boyd K. Packer's son, Alan Packer, and him. And they called me, and they're like, well, I thought they were going to just call me to some silly calling. And he's like, we'd like to call you to be Elders Quorum president of the ward.

Kevin Lundquist [00:46:35] I said, are you sure you got this one right? And they did not flinch. They just looked at me and they said, we take this very serious. I was like, okay. And so I was called to be Elders Quorum president. And when he came in and talked about Elders Quorum president, he's like, well, Thomas Monson was called to be a bishop at 22, and, you know, Kevin's 25, and he'll probably be the next bishop of the ward and all that. And. And it sounded good, but I was just like, I didn't really care as much about callings as we had. Like, we had global aspirations.

Kevin Lundquist [00:47:07] We wanted to go around the world. We wanted to do stuff. We wanted to do stuff with our careers and stuff. And we always just thought the church would fit in with that. However well it fit in.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] I mean, honestly, the healthy upbringing that you both seem to have as Mormons would seem to sort of set you up to have what I think is the ideal Mormon experience, which I often say this, which is religion, is like the salt to the meal. It's not the meal.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:47:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] Does that resonate with you?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:47:36] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] So it's a framework to help you live a full life. It's not. Mormonism isn't your life. It's a framework for your life. Is that how it was?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:47:45] I think that that is exactly perfect way to put it.

Kevin Lundquist [00:47:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] I think that's Mormonism at its best, honestly.

Kevin Lundquist [00:47:52] I agree.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:53] So when you got married, something that you shared was this desire to live, like, have a global experience as opposed to, like, a very.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:48:01] I was along for the ride with him. I. You know, my mom had moved away from her parents to come to Utah for school, so I knew that I would be leaving my parents, so I was fully on board with whatever he wanted to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:11] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:48:12] Yeah. So I kind of told her that I wanted to do some stuff that might, you know, in finance, and I had career aspirations, and. And she was all on board. She was like, I don't care. Whatever we'll go wherever.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:48:26] Yeah. As long as he was there and I had kids, I didn't care.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:30] How would you describe yourselves with regard to roles? Were you indistinct roles? Were they blurry? Did you do your own thing

Kevin Lundquist [00:48:40] in terms of, like, gender roles?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:42] Gender roles.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:48:43] Those started phasing a little bit. Because by the time we were in our first house, he was working and working on his master's degree at the same time. And I had a second shift job so that I could be with the kids most of the time. So I started doing some of the Melrose, like mowing the lawn. And let's be honest, I'm better at building furniture than he is. I actually think it's fun.

Kevin Lundquist [00:49:06] He's a better handyman than I am.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:49:08] Yeah, I actually think it's fun to work out those problems. They're puzzles to me. So. And he would help with the dishes and help with the kids. I mean, part of the. What attracted me to him is watching him play around with his nephews. So, I mean, and he would, you know, be great taking care of the kids. Once I let go of the fact that no one's as wonderful as I am, I realized he was great. Because you know how it is as a mom. You're like, it has to be my way or the highway. And then I realized his way was equally as wonderful.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:38] Yeah. So I'm kind of hearing that from the beginning, you kind of, you know, really did your own thing a little bit with gender roles.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:49:47] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:49:47] Yeah, absolutely. I don't think there was ever a. It's funny. Cause my mom and dad were very like. My dad was the breadwinner, my mom stayed home. My dad was kind of the disciplinarian. Not like hardcore or anything. But that shifted a lot when I became a teenager to where he became started. Cause I wasn't real close to my dad until I was a teenager.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:10] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [00:50:11] And then we started coming very close. And so I think because he was brought up in a. I'm the dad, the mom is the nurturer, the dad. And he kind of broke that mold a little bit as I became a teenager and like I said, became my absolute best friend. And so I kind of blurred those roles too. I didn't see that there was, you know, we. We finished. I finished my mba, and right after that we moved to the Midwest and she got in nursing school.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:50:40] And then he became the mom.

Kevin Lundquist [00:50:41] And we had two kids. And we were in the process of adopting our daughter from China. And so I had, you know, a full time Job. I was traveling all over and I was helping her because she wasn't working. She was full time nursing school. And so I was, I had to do the dishes, I had to vacuum, I had to clean the house, I'd take care of the kids and work full time.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:59] Oh, that's so.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:51:00] Yeah, I mean, I was the point. I had to put a sign on the store at the ask dad. Because the kids would come up, mom, can I have this? And I'm like, your dad is literally right next to the room where the food is and I'm not. School came naturally to him. I mean, I don't want to say he didn't work. He worked, but it came more naturally to him than I did.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Well, I'll just call it now like this is not the average Mormon upbringing. In a few ways. Both of you had kind of non shame filled Mormon upbringings with relatively healthy parents and relatively healthy leaders. And you had, you know, you worked Jennifer outside the home. You had career and educational ambitions and then you both enjoyed the church, but it wasn't excessively focused on. And you had flexible role gender norm kind of roles.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:51:56] Exactly. I mean, my mom was going to school, so my dad did like him. He took over the parent, you know, all the parenting duties while my mom was in school. School, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] So in some ways this is like a setup for like actually a really healthy Mormon experience. So really quickly, how many kids did you have and how quickly?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:52:12] We have three.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Three. Okay. And. Okay. And did you say bio?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:52:17] And one adopted.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:52:18] Two biological. Two sons and then a daughter.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Okay, okay.

Kevin Lundquist [00:52:21] And. And we had the two older ones in Utah. Then we moved to Wisconsin and we came up with this harebrained idea to adopt a little girl from China.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:52:30] Yeah, I don't feel like it was harebrained.

Kevin Lundquist [00:52:32] No, it was spur of the moment. But I think if you ask us, probably the three best decisions we ever made, that would probably be number two.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] Nice. So unless there's other parts of your story that are really worth mentioning, I'm really curious to know when things start going off the rails.

Moving to Wisconsin and Leadership Struggles

Kevin Lundquist [00:52:51] When we moved to Wisconsin.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] Okay, so around what year is that?

Kevin Lundquist [00:52:54] 2000.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Okay, so you move to Wisconsin in 2000. What could go wrong?

Kevin Lundquist [00:53:00] It was the way I describe it. And my mission president would always say, he would always joke around that God doesn't like the Midwest because of what they did to Joseph Smith. So the church is like way different. And I'd always joke about that because I told him we were moving and he's like, oh, the Midwest, it was the Isle of Misfit Toys. It really was.

Kevin Lundquist [00:53:20] It was really hard to be like we were, you know, because I think we were good members. We were committed, but we weren't hardcore. But we started having some experiences with the church that I would say started weighing on my shelf a little bit and just watching the leaders, some of the things they did. And it wasn't too bad in Wisconsin. It was more when we moved to Illinois and then started positioning ourselves to go overseas.

Kevin Lundquist [00:53:55] It wasn't anything bad. It was just. I always kind of reflected on things the church did. And my mom would always say, well, it's the members, not the church. And be like, well, but the members are called by the church, they're inspired by whatever and they speak for the church and these high up leaders that are doing things that are just wrong to some of the members and to us and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] So like just at high level, briefly, what types of things are you talking about? Just to give us a flavoring.

Kevin Lundquist [00:54:25] Why? I got called to be seminary teacher and I kind of. I had more of a rule where like it was early morning, they'd come down into my basement and I didn't really care what the kids did. I had this girl that was a senior. Her name was Susan and she was a model. She was very attractive, very nice girl. But she would show up to seminary in her slippers and her robe. She'd roll out of bed and then she'd go home and get dressed and she'd come like lay on the couch and participate in seminary. And it was great. She was participative. All the kids were great.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] And I'm thinking about your experience where you had long hair and you were basically kicked out of seminary.

Kevin Lundquist [00:55:06] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] Sounds like you were trying to not be that teacher.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:55:09] Exactly.

Kevin Lundquist [00:55:09] And so the bishop came in and he came in to my class and he says, well, you know, Susan's laying on the couch and Philip's over there kind of half dozing. I'm like, they're here. That's 80% of it. And I can't. I want him here. I said, I don't really care what you think. But it was just.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] And the leaders didn't like that.

Kevin Lundquist [00:55:31] He was okay with it. He was okay with it. But I think he didn't like the fact that, you know, he couldn't control us. To the point where she was young women's president. I was. I don't remember what I was doing. And I think it just not in any sense of a negative way. At that point, it was just more. The church did things different, and some of the counsel that we got from the bishop was not good.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] So you started to feel like the leaders were off a little bit.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:55:59] I think so. And like, I also think back before seminary teacher, he was the word mission leader. And we had this one couple missionaries that. I mean, we always. Every time we had missionaries, we invited them over. Like, I think it was family home evening night. Right. Monday night for dinner. And this one couplet. They basically used their p. Day service to help me. That's when I was deep into nursing school. He was working. They'd come and they'd do laundry at my house, but then they'd mow my lawn and things like that. And, I mean, it ended up becoming a big thing. They were like, well, you shouldn't be there. You know, she's there alone, and stuff like that. And it was before they actually had the rule where you can't have the two young men with. I wasn't alone. I had my kids in the house.

Kevin Lundquist [00:56:45] No, they had the rule.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:56:45] Oh, did they have the rule? Okay. I didn't know about the rule. But, you know, I feel like just even starting to come over every week. They started frowning on that. Even with the ensuing missionaries. It became more like once a month.

Kevin Lundquist [00:57:00] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:57:01] Yeah. I mean, I would have been in trouble without them because he wasn't in a position to mow the lawn very well. And, I mean, so it really was a dual service. And it's not like I hung out with them. I was studying. I'm like, okay, you go do. I'm gonna be studying.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] You weren't experiencing attraction to the missionaries?

Jennifer Lundquist [00:57:18] Heck, no. They were children.

Kevin Lundquist [00:57:19] Really nice guys. They were really nice guys.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] They were really nice guys.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:57:22] I know, I know, but. Yeah, I know, right?

John Dehlin [00:57:25] Sometimes you get sexualized in the church.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:57:27] Yeah. And nope, no attraction whatsoever. I mean. And my kids loved them.

Kevin Lundquist [00:57:31] I mean. And I was grateful for them coming over and helping because they would. They were just great guys. And we stayed in touch with them,

Jennifer Lundquist [00:57:38] and my kids had them on a pedestal. You know, it was just the two boys at that point, but they thought that those two were the cats. Meow. Which I loved. I liked that my kids thought that a mercenary was good and cool.

Kevin Lundquist [00:57:50] Yeah. And then we had a gal that was in my seminary class that was. Her parents were going through a pretty nasty divorce, and her dad came to me and said, you know, I gotta get her out of here and can she come live with you guys for a little while?

Kevin Lundquist [00:58:06] And I Said, yeah, absolutely. She'd come live with us. She was, what, 15? 16. 15. And our son was about five years younger, and she got along really well with the kids. We'd just gotten our daughter from China, so we needed help. And she came and she was really struggling, and she would express some of the struggles she was having because of the divorce. And so we let her stay with us longer than we agreed to, and the bishop told us we shouldn't be doing that. And he went and told the dad she shouldn't be living with them. This is. You know. And we basically just told him, go screw yourself. This isn't your business. And it was like he.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:58:45] I immediately got released from the young woman's presidency when this was happening.

Kevin Lundquist [00:58:49] And then the state president called me and said, you know, you shouldn't have her there. And I'm like, why? I've got clean hands. I'm trying to help these people out. And he called the dad and said, oh, you know, you shouldn't allow her name was Ashley to live with them. And the stake president called me and said, you know, you need to. You need to push her back. And I said, I'll push her back when they're ready. He's not ready yet. And he's like, well, I wouldn't want to have to, you know, bring a church court against you. And I said, I don't care what you do. Bring a church court. I couldn't care less.

John Dehlin [00:59:23] Okay, interesting.

Kevin Lundquist [00:59:24] And so she went. Moved back with her parents, and we're still. I mean, I'm still friends with her. You know, she moved on.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:59:30] She was married with a kid.

Kevin Lundquist [00:59:31] Yeah. And she actually ended up leaving the church later. But it was just, you know, we started this pattern where the church was telling us how to live our lives, and it just got worse. But that was kind of our first. And the way we avoided that is we didn't mean to do it, but we moved. We moved from. We were in Wisconsin. We moved to Illinois.

Jennifer Lundquist [00:59:53] That was for a job, though.

Kevin Lundquist [00:59:54] Yeah, for a job. And. But Illinois became like Isle of Mis. Pit Toys, Part two. Exponential.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:03] It was worse. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:04] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:00:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] So when did things go from just awkward, unreasonable leadership experiences to more problematic?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:00:16] I'd skip to Josh for that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:18] Well, just. Yeah, I'll Skip. But in 2005, I worked for a company that was. It was. It was kind of the big thing in town. Everybody worked there. The bishop worked there.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] In Chicago.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:30] In Illinois. Peoria.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] Oh, Peoria.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:32] For Caterpillar.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:00:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Okay. Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:35] I was pretty high up in finance, and I was making good money. And our bishop worked there too. And I didn't like the bishop, and we would later have worse experiences, but he sent out an email to everybody and said, oh, it's bonus time. You know, everybody's getting their big bonuses,

John Dehlin [01:00:53] so make sure everybody in the company or in the church.

Kevin Lundquist [01:00:56] In the church that worked for the

Jennifer Lundquist [01:00:59] company in Peoria, half the people worked for Caterpillar. The other half worked for the hospital. It felt like, I mean, obviously there's other jobs, but those were the two big entities there.

Kevin Lundquist [01:01:08] So he sent out an email saying, oh, make sure you pay your tithing. And I was already not big on paying tithing because of what the church did with it and all that.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] And so wait, what were your concerns about what the church did with it?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:01:21] Well, I didn't want my money going to byu, for one.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] I just spoke it like a true you.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:01:27] Exactly, exactly.

Kevin Lundquist [01:01:29] I just knew enough about what the church wasn't doing in terms of whatever their wealth was at that time. They were giving a fraction of it to charitable contributions and all that. So I didn't stop paying tithing. So what I did is I took that 10% and I put it in an account. I opened up a Fidelity Investments account and I put it in there. And I said, okay, when I reconcile this, I'll pay it.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] That smells a lot like apostasy to me.

Kevin Lundquist [01:01:56] It was.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] That sounds like the beginning of the end.

Kevin Lundquist [01:02:00] It wasn't. It was just. I didn't. It was almost like I was giving in to this bishop and gonna go have to write him this big check because he sent me an email and forced it.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:11] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:02:11] And I didn't want that.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:12] And I was like, I'm feeling the strong arm feel.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:02:15] Exactly, exactly.

Kevin Lundquist [01:02:16] It got worse.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:02:17] What you're choosing to do, to live the gospel as you've been taught, not because your bishop says, you need to do this.

Kevin Lundquist [01:02:23] Yeah. But I mean, I'll tell you later what I did with that account later, but I kept it. I kept doing 10% and paid for all my kids college with it. And that was. And I felt like I can stand before God and say, you know, I helped my kids out because we struggled through college. We didn't have, you know, our parents couldn't afford it. We had to go into debt. And so I wanted to do that for my kids. And if God wants to send me to hell for giving my kids an advantage, who. Our kids are all great. They all end their careers. They're flourishing versus giving it to a $200 billion corporation. Then I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] Okay. And you would have known back then the church was worth 200 billion?

Kevin Lundquist [01:03:04] No, I went for several years just putting the money in an account, thinking, at some point I'm going to write them a big check and. And I would. You know, we weren't like real temple active, so we didn't really care about getting a recommend.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Okay, so really quickly, we've already established that your Mormon story was unique in a lot of ways. But. So by the time you're in Peoria, you're thinking, your leaders are annoying you, you're not paying a full tithe, you're telling the leaders no. Or to, you know, you're thinking that the. It's kind of off. Like, those are all, like, not orthodox impulses. And so I'm wondering, in Peoria, were you conscious about the fact that, like, you weren't really totally on plan? You weren't totally.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:03:56] He was. I wasn't.

Kevin Lundquist [01:03:58] I refused to have a calling.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] So you're like. But are you thinking in your mind, ah, I'm not really into this church much anymore. Or was it just. Church is still totally true.

Kevin Lundquist [01:04:08] It'll pass.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] What?

Kevin Lundquist [01:04:09] It'll pass? Yeah, it'll pass. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] So even though you're not totally orthodox or orthoprax in your heart, you're still a full believer at this point.

Kevin Lundquist [01:04:18] Yeah. And contextually, we had moved to Peoria with the promise. They drew me to the company with the promise they'd move us overseas within a year. So we knew we were gonna be in Peoria for a year.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:04:29] And so it was kind of just like, I don't wanna call in. I'm not gonna take this too serious. And we would go to church. We're still active.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] Yeah. But not super orthoprax. I'll say. Jennifer, anything you want to add to that? You said he was.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:04:42] I mean, he was probably a little bit more off than I was. I can't remember. I think. Did I have a calling in the primary then? I don't remember what I did, but I was a nurse, so I was working a lot, you know, sometimes on Sundays anyways. And the pediatric cardiac surgeon that I worked with was in our ward, so. So that was kind of nice that I at least had that. And, you know.

Son Comes Out as Gay While Abroad

John Dehlin [01:05:06] So when did the next big crack start to form?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:05:09] After we got back from India?

Kevin Lundquist [01:05:10] No, it was in India.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:05:11] In India.

Kevin Lundquist [01:05:12] So we moved to India. We moved to Bangalore and we lived there and it was good, you know, our kids Were a little. We had a teenager that was. He was 14. And, you know, we went to church, and he was super active. He was. He was in it to win it. Our second kid was, like, a little bit, whatever. Ambivalent, but would go to church. And then our daughter was too young to really worry about it for some reason.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] And I'd been to Bangalore. For some reason. It wouldn't have occurred to me that India would have wards.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:05:42] We did have a ward, and we met above a bakery in Bangalore. In Bangalore.

Kevin Lundquist [01:05:47] Well, it was technically a district. It was technically. It was under a district. Under the mission president.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:05:53] Yeah. And I always loved. I was the only woman there that was Sister Jennifer. Everybody else was like, normally I would be Sister Kevin, but they let me be Sister Jennifer. I don't know if it was because I had a dual role. I was in the primary and the young women's at the same time. I don't know. It was pretty cool.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] Something that I should know, but I don't. You hear about Mormon missionaries being called to Africa and Latin America and the Philippines, like, all day long. You never hear about Mormon missionaries being called to India or China.

Kevin Lundquist [01:06:26] We had.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] I think I understand why, but why isn't India full of a gazillion Mormon missionaries?

Kevin Lundquist [01:06:32] They don't allow them. They only allow certain visas.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] India doesn't allow Mormon missionaries.

Kevin Lundquist [01:06:36] And I'll get into a story that I ran into with the missionaries a little later. I'll do it a little later because it will fall in the pattern. But the big event that happened with us when we were in India is our son would come to me, and he'd say, you know, I'm struggling a little bit with things I'm looking at on my phone. And I was like, all right, Internet era. Yeah, this would be 2000, 2005.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:07:03] Oh, yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:07:04] No, it's about 2008.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:07:05] Something like that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:07:06] So he had a. Whatever phone that he could access the Internet.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] Facebook was around by that point.

Kevin Lundquist [01:07:10] It just started.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] Mormon think would have been around by that point.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:14] He's telling you.

Kevin Lundquist [01:07:15] Yeah. And he'd be like, I'm struggling with some stuff I'm looking at. I said, well. And, you know, full disclosure, I've never been the type of person that really got it with porn. I never really cared. But I didn't demonize it. I just said, well, do the best you can. And, you know, don't let it turn you into some weirdo. Just whatever. Do the best you can. And he would come to me at night and he'd be like, I'm really struggling, dad. Can you take my phone? And I'd just set it on my nightstand. The next day, he'd get it. And we didn't really talk about it, but then he came to me and he said, can I talk to you about something?

Kevin Lundquist [01:07:47] I said, yeah. And he said. He said, I think I'm gay. And I said, okay. You know, and all the kind of sorry all the emotions go through, it's like, okay, this is totally contrary to what the church teaches and all that. And I didn't think about it in terms of. Of the church. I thought about it in terms of, how is this gonna. How is he gonna have to navigate life with this? But he's only 14. And I said, you know what? I said, you're too old. You're too young right now to worry about that. You shouldn't be thinking about your sexuality. You should not be having sex with anybody.

Kevin Lundquist [01:08:28] Please don't wait and don't talk about it right now. I said, figure it out and give it some time. And he said, okay. And he said, that's fine. And I said, it's not that we're trying to hide it or anything. I said, it's just you shouldn't be figuring that out right now. He said, it doesn't sound like you're sure. And he said, yeah, you're right. And he just said, well, what if I am? And I said, then you are. That's fine.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:08:54] Whatever.

Kevin Lundquist [01:08:55] And I said, if you're asking if me and mom are going to marginalize you because of it, we never will. And so we didn't talk about it for a couple years. It just went away. And we didn't talk about it until he was 17.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] So, thinking about the timeline, I'm wondering If this is 2008. I'm wondering if you knew that back in California, your home state, the church was declaring war on gay people through Proposition 8. You were aware?

Kevin Lundquist [01:09:24] I was aware, yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:09:25] We weren't Californians, of course, up to that point, but we knew about it. It was on the news.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:28] It was news.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] I mean, my point is that by that point, the church was declaring war on gay people.

Kevin Lundquist [01:09:33] And I hated it. That was something that came to my mind, was like, okay, they're declaring war on you. And so just. It wasn't that I didn't want him to. I just. He wasn't sure because he said, I think. And I said, well, just, you know, you should not be having sex at 14. I don't care if it's Straight or gay, I don't care. So just don't say anything. Wait.

Kevin Lundquist [01:09:59] So then we moved back, you know, and he was super active, super great kid. We moved back to Illinois into the same ward that was just as bad, same bishop. And he came to me, or came to both of us, and he said, I'm. I'm gay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:10:17] I said, all right, fine. And it was interesting because he was dating girls and doing all this, and he had this girl that he was dating that we just absolutely loved. She was just such a sweet girl. And he said, I'm gonna break up with her because there's just not that. And he said, but I'm not going out and dating and having sex or anything. And I said, all right, that's fine. I said, but don't. Don't announce it. I said, be what you want to be. I said, but don't announce it. And I.

John Dehlin [01:10:42] Can I just note. Margi, I'm sure you're thinking this too. You must have had a great relationship with your kid, because most kids aren't like, turning in their phone to their parents saying, I don't want to be looking at the stuff, or coming to their kid at 14, or parents at 14 or 16 and saying, Hey, I think I might be gay. What do you guys think?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:10:59] I feel like that kid, he's also. Was always. I don't know, I say, very choice, but he was always very mature for his age. And like, when he was little, I'd be like, okay, that's gonna be the next prophet. Because he just, you know, he had charisma and faith and just all the things. And. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're very lucky. I think we have great relationship with all three kids.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] As a parent, you can ruin a relationship with great kids.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:11:26] I mean, honestly. Yeah, up until I got too tired working night shift, I was still tucking my kids in as teenagers until they got to the point they'd come and kiss me, except I was asleep on the couch and we'd have a lot of great discussions. When he was 17, I was doing one of my tuck ins, and that's when he told me he was gay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:11:47] So we move back to Peoria, and he doesn't follow my advice, which, okay, fine. And he tells the bishop because he thinks, you know, I'm a good kid, I'm not having sex, I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm going to tell the bishop. So he tells the bishop, and the bishop automatically calls me and he says, well, Josh shared this with me and he needs to get into counseling and I've arranged a counselor for him. And at that point I didn't know enough of what to do. And he said, it's a non LDS counselor and I want him to start seeing him. So I asked Josh about it and Josh was like, yeah, whatever, I don't care. I'll go see this counselor.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:12:25] Well, Josh didn't want to be gay, right?

Kevin Lundquist [01:12:27] He didn't.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:12:28] He was hoping this would help him.

Kevin Lundquist [01:12:30] Well, not at that point.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:12:31] Well, no. A little bit.

Kevin Lundquist [01:12:33] So he went and started seeing this counselor. He saw him twice and on the second time I went to go pick him up and the counselor came out and he said, what am I trying to do here? What's the goal? He said, am I supposed to make your kid not gay? I said, I don't know. And he said, well, here's the news.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Didn't the bishop tell him I didn't know?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:12:52] Right.

Kevin Lundquist [01:12:52] So he says, here's the news. You've got a really brilliant, smart, amazing, well adjusted gay kid. And he said, I'm not gonna counsel him anymore. Yeah, you don't need me. Oh, how I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:13:07] And so Councillor the bishop recommended.

Kevin Lundquist [01:13:09] Yeah, but he was not.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:13:09] He was not morbid.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:10] He was not morbid. He was cancer Catholic, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] I guess Slim Pickens in Peoria.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:13:14] Right.

Kevin Lundquist [01:13:14] Well, so super nice guy too. I really appreciated him saying that. So I went back and told the bishop and the bishop said, well, you need to go to an LDS counselor.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] Yeah, let's try to do counseling.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:25] That was not what he said.

Kevin Lundquist [01:13:27] The LDS counselor is in. Is in Chicago. So every week you're going to have to drive your son to Chicago, which is 160 miles each way. And I said, no, I'm not doing that.

Navigating a Gay Child's Path Through the Church

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Worst advice ever.

Kevin Lundquist [01:13:38] Oh, oh, well, it gets worse later, unfortunately. But I said, I'm not doing that. That's not gonna happen. I said, I'm just gonna let him be who he is. And so time went on and Josh is getting ready to apply for school. And the bishop calls me in and he says, your son's not applying to byu and basically told me I was derelict as a parent.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] He tells a youth, he tells a youth.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:14:02] I mean, even if he wasn't gay, that was not on the truth.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] That's enough to leave the truth right there.

Kevin Lundquist [01:14:06] He goes, you should have him go to bed. Byu, it will really help him. And I said, what will it help him with? I said, he's a biochemist that wants to go to med school. How is BYU gonna help him and the guy that was.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] And his answer was electroshock therapy.

Kevin Lundquist [01:14:18] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the guy that was. That Jen referenced, that was the Dark Knight humor. Sorry, I thought it was funny.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:14:25] True facts. Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:14:27] The guy that was the head of the pediatric cardiology at the hospital, he was a friend of ours, and he was on the U of I. Med school admissions board. And he told us, he said, don't send your son to byu. Don't send him. And he could have gotten into any school. Stanford, Northwestern. He said, don't send them to those schools. Send them to somewhere where they do research their whole four years. And so he got in and got a scholarship to University of Nebraska at Lincoln and ended up going there. And so he left to go to school, and we left to go to Tokyo. To move to Tokyo. And so, you know, we were in Tokyo. I was pretty much, man, your son dodged a bullet.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] I mean, just wait.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:15:09] Just force him to go to byu.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:15:13] It wasn't. He didn't even apply. It wasn't even a conversation.

John Dehlin [01:15:15] No, but I mean, again, not a traditional Mormon story.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:15:18] Right, right. Because we did know people that would say, we'll only pay for school if you go to byu.

John Dehlin [01:15:23] Parents, I won't pay for your school. No, if you don't go to. By byu.

Kevin Lundquist [01:15:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:15:29] I ran into a couple people like that in Tokyo.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] Y' all are like, please don't go to byu.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:32] Yes.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:15:33] Like, we'll still love you, but it'll be hard.

Kevin Lundquist [01:15:36] We'd kind of always been raised, or at least I think education is education. It's not, you know, don't mix church with education. And so I was never. I couldn't have gotten into byu, but I wouldn't have went anyways. And we never encouraged our kids to go to BYU because we just wanted them to focus on their education. So everything went pretty normal in Tokyo. I was to the point where I was really starting seeing cracks in the church, and I wasn't real active. And we were in a ward that had general authority, the mission president and the state president. And so I got to know the general authorities there. Stevenson was our general authority. And I got to know him really well, became friends with him.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Gary. Is that Gary Stevenson?

Kevin Lundquist [01:16:20] Gary Stevenson, who's now the apostle. And he was a good man. He treated us well. He was nice. But about a year into it, so we're 2012, Josh is home for Christmas, and he says, I'm thinking about going on a mission.

Kevin Lundquist [01:16:39] And I said, okay, what is that the right decision? And he said, And I was enough. One foot in the church and one foot out that I wasn't. I was kind of playing the. I was playing the good guy, bad guy.

Kevin Lundquist [01:16:53] And he's like, well, maybe it'll help me put things in perspective with my sexuality and stuff. And I said, well, okay, if you want to do that, I'll support you. And he was going to University of Nebraska. He was on a scholarship there, biochemistry. He had gotten into the marching band, which I think that year they let three freshmen in. I mean, it was, like, very competitive. It was very competitive. And so he was. He was flourishing there.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:18] Was he going to church there?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:17:19] He was. He was.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:20] So he was still attending during this time?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:17:25] Yeah, he was full on at that point in time. He was planning to probably be a celibate gay man.

Kevin Lundquist [01:17:32] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:17:32] Wasn't dating anybody who was living all the tenets of the gospel, as one should at that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:17:40] So anyway, to make a long story short, he decided to go on a mission. He. Which I kind of didn't. I thought, okay, let's give it a chance, and whatever. So he gets called to the Baltic region, Lithuania, that area under the Russia area presidency.

Kevin Lundquist [01:18:01] And, you know, we came back to Salt Lake. We did the big. We went through the temple, and it was the first time that she and I had been through the temple in years. And I kind of got a view of like, you go through the temple after you've kind of seen some of the way the sausage is made. And it was pretty negative for me, but I didn't say anything. We took Josh. He went through the temple the next day. We dropped him off at the mtc and he took off and we went back to Tokyo.

Kevin Lundquist [01:18:33] And over the next six months, my testimony was really dwindling, and I told the bishop about it. So I was the CFO of the company at that time. So I had a lot of. In Japan, you do dinners, you drink, you go do all this stuff as a leader. And I had a couple instances where I was caught drinking. A guy that worked for me, his wife was friends with the bishop's wife. And so the bishop called me in and he said, hey, I know that you've been. There was this picture that she showed my wife, which I don't know why she did that. And I said, yeah, once in a while I drink.

Kevin Lundquist [01:19:10] And he's like, well. And I didn't have a call in. He was pretty cool about it. He just said, well, you shouldn't do that. And I said, I'm the CFO of the company. I'm not going to sit there and not drink because it's not socially acceptable. Although I could have done it. I just didn't care. And I wasn't doing. I said, I'm not doing anything hardcore. And I didn't drive. I had a driver. I'd take the subway. And he just said, well, you shouldn't do that. I said, okay, duly noted. But he didn't say anything.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] This keeps happening to you in the church.

Kevin Lundquist [01:19:40] Well, but then three weeks later, he calls me and he says, come in my office. And I thought, oh, here we go. And he goes, he says, I'd like to call you to be the gospel doctrine teacher. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, I think you'd be really good. You know, you have a good testimony, you speak really, you know, you're knowledgeable about the church. And I thought, okay, this is either going to be something that makes me or breaks me. And I accepted the calling. And we were teaching Doctrine and Covenants, and so I started teaching every Sunday our son. So I gave another piece of advice to, you know, you always know you've raised independent kids when they don't listen to you.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:20] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:20:21] And he told his mission president that he was gay, that he was struggling,

Jennifer Lundquist [01:20:25] and he had told him not to.

Kevin Lundquist [01:20:27] I told him not to. I said, you know, if you are or not, I don't care. Figure out on your own, but it's not going to help you.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:20:31] He's worried how people would treat him.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:33] Right.

Kevin Lundquist [01:20:34] So the mission president calls me and he goes, yeah, I talked to Josh and I want him to get into counseling. And we have this really good LDS counselor that's a missionary. I said, well, what are his credentials? And he was a family counselor and had no business counseling gay kids. And he said, I'm actually putting it as a stipulation that your son has to go to counseling with this person to stay on his mission. And so I called Josh and I said, what do you think? And he's like, no, I think it'll be fine. It'll be okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:21:05] The letter that I received from Josh was, this is why I was sent to Lithuania, is because he's going to cure me of my gayness.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:12] Oh, really? How did that make you feel?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:21:14] I was a little heartbroken because by then I knew that you were boring gay. Because I knew he'd been struggling for so many years. He didn't want to be gay. And so I fully. You know, I knew that gayness wasn't a choice. So I just Thought, kid, you're setting yourself up for failure. He was just so convinced that this was it. This is why I'm supposed to be here. I'm gonna cure to my gayness. Life is gonna be good now.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] So let me, if I could just jump in and ask like you're drinking by this point, like lightly.

Kevin Lundquist [01:21:47] Lightly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:48] For business purposes only for business. And you're working, which is probably more of a sin in Mormonism than drinking

Jennifer Lundquist [01:21:56] in Japan, but yeah. No, I mean talking about working, I had somebody get mad at me for working on Sundays as state president.

John Dehlin [01:22:03] What I'm trying to say is that you're both kind of not fully orthoprax Mormons. And so your son comes to you and says, I'm going to go to mission and you know he's gay. Was there any part of you that were like, don't go on a mission. Like, this church isn't for you. Don't go.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:25] Or even around attending church. Did you ever have this moment of like, we know the messaging and if our child really thinks that that means he's absorbing all this sort of self hatred. Self. Did you ever have feelings like that that you were wrestling?

Kevin Lundquist [01:22:42] He has this way of. He's got such a strong, amazing personality that I think people love it. People walk past it. It was like, okay, whatever. And he didn't, like, he wasn't like, I don't want to use the wrong word, but he wasn't real flamboyant, running around telling everybody he's gay. He kind of kept it to himself and so it wasn't really a conversation. And in Nebraska he didn't really, you know, he wasn't dating anybody. He wasn't. And so it was more just like a sub conversation. I think he kept it a little quieter with the church. He didn't like announce it.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] But in terms of when I asked if you had thought about telling him not to go on a mission, absolutely you thought about it. But did you actually tell him?

Kevin Lundquist [01:23:21] I told him I didn't think he should.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] Oh, really?

Kevin Lundquist [01:23:23] Yeah. And I said, but I'll support you if you want. I'm not gonna tell you not to.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] Did you say why?

Kevin Lundquist [01:23:28] Yeah. And again, like Jen said, he wasn't 100% committed that he was gay. I think he knew he was, but I don't think he was. There was still a doubt.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:23:39] I don't think he knew he was born gay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:23:41] There was still a doubt.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:42] Or so he had taken in enough of the church conditioning around. That's what it sounds like, to me, that's exactly it.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:23:49] And that. I mean, he probably had a harder time leaving the church than he did for sure, with all that. And when we talk about what happens next, that was kind of the pinnacle.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Okay, so it sounds like maybe y' all were a little bit like me and Margi. Even though there were points where we knew the church wasn't true, we wanted to let our kids have their own journey.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:24:11] And honestly, it was more so him. I still. Full card. I'm a full card carrying. You know, he's on his way to hell because he's drinking. What am I gonna do with my little celestial family? I think there was. Once my daughter found out he was drinking and she cried. But that was a little later because she found. Yeah, it was a little later.

Kevin Lundquist [01:24:31] That was when we moved back so really quickly.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:24:34] I was in the young women's presidency. And then later, the.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:37] So I'm also hearing some differentiation.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:24:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] So was number one, when you started drinking, Kevin, did. Did. Did that reflect that your beliefs were slipping or even as you started drinking, you. You didn't. That. That didn't reflect a change in your orthodox beliefs?

Kevin Lundquist [01:25:00] I did a little bit. But what I was believing was that what I started thinking is the church is still true, but there's certain things that I'm not going to hang my hat on and I don't believe. Like, I even said to the bishop, I said, so in the community. I was working with Caroline Kennedy, who was the ambassador to Japan, on certain things, initiatives to help people in the country. I was doing all these things. I'm good to my kids. Is God really gonna send me to hell? Because I drink socially as part of my job? And so that was my mindset. The church was still true, but there were aspects of the church that they had gotten wrong. And so I didn't really worry about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:43] It reminds me very much of your parenting, how you grew up, your mission president. It's like that became a template of, like, hey, there are a few things that are really important. And then there are a lot of things that you can just noise.

Kevin Lundquist [01:25:57] And when the bishop called me to be gospel doctrine teacher, like, three weeks later, I felt validated. I never told him I was not going to drink, you know?

John Dehlin [01:26:05] And so for you, Jennifer. Sorry. Yeah, for you, Jennifer, was that a source of conflict as you were noticing that he was practicing his Mormonism in a more laxed way? Was that a spoken source of contention between you two, or did y' all just not talk about it?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:26:25] I Mean, he knew I didn't like it, but I wasn't gonna let that hurt our relationship. It's like, all right, you know how I feel about it. Let's move on type of a thing.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] So family over church even at that point?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:26:37] Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:26:38] It did get a little contentious with us a little later, but then we found a middle ground.

John Dehlin [01:26:43] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:26:43] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] All right. Thank you. So your sons. Your mission president is saying, your gay son needs counseling. Okay. And then what happened?

Kevin Lundquist [01:26:54] So I called Josh and I said, what do you think? You know, do you want me to fight this? And he's like, no, I think it'll help me. And so. Okay. So he starts going to counseling. And very quickly, we realized he's almost a year into it. He left in the summer, and this is probably May, we realized 2012-2012-2013-2013. So he left in 12. In 2013, we realized that his demeanor was changing significantly. He was depressed. He wasn't the same. And he never depression. He was always just such a.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:27:23] He was the most, like. We move into a new neighborhood person in the world, and all of a sudden, he's not. I mean, it wasn't my kid. My kid was gone.

Kevin Lundquist [01:27:33] And so I started. He luckily had found a member in the area that would let him use his cell phone so I could talk to him. And I said, what's going on? He said, going to this counselor is just making me crazy. It's just I'm depressed, and I feel bad about myself. And I was like.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:27:49] The counselor told him it was his fault. He wasn't trying hard enough to not be gay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:27:53] Yeah, you're not washing the gayness away. And so I said, all right, you know what? You're done counseling. And I said, I'm gonna call the mission president, and I'm gonna tell him. And I said, the ramifications might be that you get sent home. I said, this guy's not. I did not like this mission president. And it came out in a very bad way later.

Kevin Lundquist [01:28:14] But I said, the ramifications might be that you get sent home. And he said, okay. I said, can you live with that? And he said, yeah. So I called the mission president. I said, he's not going to counseling anymore. And I said, you do what you want, but he's not going to counseling. I'm his father, and you're not letting him go to counseling. He's like, okay, that's fine, but you're making the wrong decision. I said, don't care.

Kevin Lundquist [01:28:32] But the damage had been done. And he couldn't get himself. And I think that the mission president marginalized him because of it and maybe didn't treat him as good as he could. And I think the damage was done to where Josh. I was hoping, like, the first few months of Josh's mission, he was doing really well. He's baptizing people. He really had all these friends, these families that loved him, and that was all gone. And I thought that would come back, and it didn't. And so we moved into about June.

Kevin Lundquist [01:29:03] And I remember I called him, and he was just not himself. And I said, okay, I got to get you home. And he said, okay. And so I called the mission president, and I said, he needs to come home.

Kevin Lundquist [01:29:15] And he said, I'm not sending him home. And, you know, it's a shame for a mission president to have to send someone home. And I said, look, he's not productive. He's not happy. I said, just let him come home. I said. And the pressing thing was is, it's June now.

Kevin Lundquist [01:29:31] And I knew he was going to come home, and I wanted to get him home so I could put him back in school. And I called Nebraska, and I said, hey, I had to go through a committee to get them to.

Kevin Lundquist [01:29:41] I called him. I said, you know, he's doing something that he's gonna go on a mission for two years. He needs a leave of absence. And, oh, by the way, can you hold his scholarship? And they did. And so I called him back, and I said, he may come home after a year. And they're like, well, we have to. We can let him back in the school, but we don't know if we'll reinstate his scholarship, and he's gonna have to try out for the band. I said, I don't care. And they called me back, and they're like, you know what? We talked about it. He can come back, and we'll reinstate his scholarship.

Kevin Lundquist [01:30:07] And what I didn't want to happen. What was worrying me is that he would come back, it would drag out enough, and he would miss the enrollment, and he'd sit in Tokyo for three months lamenting about his life. And I didn't want that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:30:22] So I called the mission president again, and I said, he needs to come home. What do I need to do? And he's like, I'm his mission president. I've been called of God to lead this, and he's not coming home.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:31] Wow.

Kevin Lundquist [01:30:32] And so I said. I called Josh, and I said, I'm just gonna send you a ticket and just go to the airport and fly home. And he said, dad, I don't have my passport. The mission president took it. So I called the mission president again, and I said, look, I'm not messing around. You need to send him home. And he's like, don't call me again. There's nothing you can do.

Crisis on the Mission and Coming Home Early

Margi Dehlin [01:30:51] How are you guys feeling right now at this point, both of you?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:30:55] My mantra was, the church is true, the people are not. The church is true. The people are not. The church is true. It was really, really hard right then, especially because, like I said, this is the most joyful kid I have. And I'm just seeing him being tortured.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:08] Yes.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:31:09] Disappearing, like, okay, we're supposed to be talking about free agency. There's no free agency. Or, you know, he wants to come home. Everyone wants him home. Who are you to say we can't bring him home? Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:19] And to take his passport, which is standard.

Kevin Lundquist [01:31:24] Yeah, but they're not allowed to. They're not supposed to. I mean, the first thing it says on the page of your passport is, do not let this out of your. Your possession overseas. So I couldn't get any traction. And about a year before, I had gotten a call from the church security, and they said, we need your help. The mission president gave us your number. And there's two missionaries that have been arrested in Bangalore, and they're being held in an Indian prison, and they could be there for six months.

Kevin Lundquist [01:31:54] And I remembered a guy that was our government liaison who was a friend of mine that was that we did a lot of work with. On logistics and stuff like that with the government. And the government in India is just fully bureaucratic.

Kevin Lundquist [01:32:05] And I called this guy, said, is there anything you can do to help? And he made some calls, and I'm not exactly sure what he did, but I'm pretty sure he had a friend that went down and paid a bribe and got these missionaries out.

Kevin Lundquist [01:32:19] And the missionaries decided to stay. The government of India restricts their love, how many visas they'll give. So there's only, like, 40 missionaries allowed in the whole country, and they're not allowed to proselyte. And what they were charged with was proselyting, even though they said, absolutely, we didn't do it.

Kevin Lundquist [01:32:38] But. And so, you know, that was fine. But this is a year later. I remember those guys, and I had their business cards, and they had come about six months after the fact, and I went to lunch with them when they were in Bangalore, and they thanked me, and I said, you know, I don't know if I really did Anything. But I'm glad that they got out and they got. They got. They were safe, and they were both ex bureau, you know, FBI, all that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:33:04] And so I called this guy and I said, hey, do you remember me? He's like, yeah, I remember you. And I'm like, well, I'm in Tokyo now, and here's what I'm going through. And he's like, well, technically, they're not supposed to take their passport, and they can get in trouble for doing that. I said, especially in a place like the Baltic area. He's like, russia hates the church, and they will look for an opening to. To do anything against the church. They can.

Kevin Lundquist [01:33:27] And he's like, so you should call the mission department and make a complaint and all that. And he's like, but if you have anybody that you know in the consulate in Moscow, he's like, you could probably call the consulate, but I don't know if it'll help.

Kevin Lundquist [01:33:39] And I said, okay. So I hung up. And I. You know, it's just. I was stressed about it, and as this was happening, my testimony was going. It was going. Just pivoting.

John Dehlin [01:33:49] Yeah, because you're worried about your son's life and you want to send him a plane ticket so he can come home. And your mission president, your son's mission president is holding your son hostage by keeping his passport so your son can't come home and save his life effectively.

Kevin Lundquist [01:34:07] Well, and also, I think the ces.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:34:09] I felt like he was getting depressed enough to commit suicide, frankly.

Kevin Lundquist [01:34:12] And I think the CES letter and Mormon think I was starting to look at those.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Okay. And because of these experiences.

Kevin Lundquist [01:34:17] No, just. I think they kind of. Of it might have accelerated it, but it was. It was both. And so I remembered back to my mba, and I went to. Did my MBA with a friend, a guy that I was in his study group, and we became friends.

Kevin Lundquist [01:34:36] And afterwards he went to work for the CIA. And I was so desperate, I called him, I emailed him, I had his email, and I said, can I talk to you? And he's a member of the. And I don't know if he's still a member. I'm sure he was, but I called him and I told him what was going on, and I said, I just need to get my kid home. And he's like, they are not supposed to take their passports. They can get in a lot of trouble. And he's like, here's what would have to happen.

Kevin Lundquist [01:35:00] He's like, I can't call the consulate. People in assets in that area that we have can't call the consulate, but they can go in and file a State Department complaint from the US to the consulate that their passport has been taken. He's like, but they'll open up an investigation, and it'll be a big investigation. It won't just be driving by the mission home and taking his passport. And he said, it could get the mission shut down. He's like, it could have serious ramifications.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:26] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:35:27] I said, okay. And he said, here's what I would do. He's like, I would call the mission president and let him know that you have some connections that can make his life really difficult. And he said, and if I have to call him, I'll call him for you. He says, because that's not right. If your son needs to come home, they should let him come home. And he said, but just make sure you do the right thing and don't, you know, do the right thing. And I hung up. And I was like, I'm gonna burn the mother to the ground. I'm done. He messed with the wrong guy.

Kevin Lundquist [01:35:58] And before I called the mission president, I called my dad. And my dad was always. He was the one that could, like, always talk me down off the ledge. And he said, what are you trying to accomplish here?

Kevin Lundquist [01:36:10] He said, you're trying to get your son home. And he said, you could affect a lot of missionaries there and could make the church look really bad. And I said, I don't care. And he said, no, your goal needs to be to get your son home. He said, if you have to go beyond that, then do that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:36:24] And I said, okay. And that was good advice. So I called the mission president and I said, look, you're not supposed to have his passport. And I have some friends in very high up places that will call the State Department, file a complaint, and report you to the consulate in Moscow, and they'll open investigation.

Kevin Lundquist [01:36:43] And he paused. And I knew at that point I had him. And he said, that would be very bad for the church. And that's, you know, started talking about the Savior and all that. And I said, and this was when I knew I was out of the church. And I hope I can say this. I said, don't say bad words. I said, don't f with me. I said, because I will do whatever it takes to get him home.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:05] Yes, that's right.

Kevin Lundquist [01:37:06] And so he says, okay. He says, well, I need to talk to Salt Lake and I need to pray about it. And I said, as long as your prayer puts him on a plane in the next couple of days. And I made it clear that he was coming home not dishonorably. He was just coming home on a medical release or whatever. So I. I hung up the phone, and four hours later, he called me. And he's like, yeah, we're going to send him home. And I said, okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:29] The miracle of revelation.

Kevin Lundquist [01:37:31] Revelation. That's right.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:37:32] Prayer works.

Kevin Lundquist [01:37:33] So two days later, I went and I picked him up at the airport in Tokyo. And as we were driving home, he was. He was upbeat, but he was, you know, he seemed a little defeated.

John Dehlin [01:37:45] Because that's not the way to end your mission.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:37:47] No, no. He'd had such high hopes for it.

Kevin Lundquist [01:37:50] And so we were just talking about normal stuff. Nothing, you know, family, the kids, whatever. And I. And I said. He said, now what do I do? And I said, you go home, you call Nebraska, you register, and next week I'm flying you back there.

Kevin Lundquist [01:38:06] And I said, never, ever try to make the church work for you. I said, because it won't. I said, you will. Sorry. I said, you'll just frustrate yourself forever if you try to make it work. I said, it's not going to work for you.

Kevin Lundquist [01:38:24] You're gay. That's fine. But don't try to make the church work for you. And he said, okay. And I had talked to our stake president, and our stake president was a good man, he really was, and he couldn't do anything. But I called him and I said, okay, Josh is coming home. And he said, okay, I want him to give his homecoming talk on Sunday. I was like, all right, I think that will be good. So when we were driving home, I said, this is what he wants to do. I said, I think it would be good for you.

Kevin Lundquist [01:38:52] He said, I'll give you closure. I said, even though the ward doesn't really know you here, I said, you didn't come home dishonorably. You didn't do anything wrong. I said, and so mark this as an experience. And so he did.

Kevin Lundquist [01:39:06] It wasn't a formal homecoming, but he spoke in church and spoke about his mission, bore his testimony in Lithuanian, walked off the stand, walked out of the church, and never went back to church again to this day.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:18] Yes. Can I ask you, Jennifer, what you were feeling and if you were in sync at this point with the direction of, like, never go back, don't try

Jennifer Lundquist [01:39:30] to make it happen? I'm sure on that. Yeah. Because I knew that there, like he said, there's just no place for a gay person to have a full life. Cause you know, I wanted him to be able to have a partner in life, not be stuck to a life of celibacy. And after how he was treated on his mission, you know, too many people feel that gayness is a choice, not that you're born that way, because if anybody proved that to me, it was him with how hard he fought being gay. So, yeah, for his own sanity, I agreed. He needed to just be out.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:05] How did it feel? And this can be for both of you. You know, the minute you saw him from when you got him off his mission and you were able to have him in front of you, so relieved.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:40:16] And. And he bounced back to the kid that I knew pretty fast.

Kevin Lundquist [01:40:20] Very fast.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:40:20] You know, full of joy and of life and.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:24] Wow.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:40:24] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:40:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:25] It's like a life saving.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:40:27] It really. It really was.

Kevin Lundquist [01:40:28] Yeah, it was. Because, like, it was. It was about a week, and it was the week I took him to Tokyo. Then I came back or took him to Nebraska. I came back to Tokyo and that's when it all erupted for me. And I. I did my mic drop moment. But when I took him to Nebraska, you know, he tried out for the band, he got back in the band, he got in his classes, he got in the housing he wanted. Everything fell into place. And so when I left to go back to Tokyo, I left him in a really good place. It wasn't. He was. He was. He had bounced back and I was. I knew he was going to be okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:10] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:41:10] And so it was. And he. I don't think we. Until 2015, when we had a story that I'll tell you about, we hadn't really talked about the church at all. It wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] It wasn't you and him?

Kevin Lundquist [01:41:24] Yeah, no, I. I talked to him a couple months later and told him about my exit and what had happened and. And that mom was going to church and I wasn't, and he's just like, okay, whatever. And, you know, when he would come out to Tokyo or out to California, we just. Nobody went to church. It wasn't even a conversation.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:44] Got it. I have a question. How old were your other children when this was happening to Josh on his mission? And were they. I would imagine they were aware. But their ages.

Kevin Lundquist [01:41:56] 15 and 9.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:57] Okay, 15 and 9.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:41:59] I think our older. Our middle kid knew. Cause they're best friends.

Kevin Lundquist [01:42:02] Oh, yeah, he knew.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:42:03] They've been best friends their whole life. My daughter, I think, was a little young and didn't really know. She just knew he came home.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:09] Okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:42:09] I think we did tell her why. I Can't remember.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] Did the mission president do anything mean or spiteful after he caved?

Kevin Lundquist [01:42:17] No.

John Dehlin [01:42:17] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [01:42:18] Nothing. I never heard from him again. I never talked to him again, and I didn't do anything. I emailed my friend back and I said, amazing advice. I need to buy you dinner. And he came home.

John Dehlin [01:42:31] And then normally testimonies just don't evaporate, even if. Especially if you're gay sometimes. So just because he went back to Nebraska and you told him he didn't have to make the church work anymore, was it still a struggle for him to kind of

Kevin Lundquist [01:42:48] deconstruct his program for him?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:42:51] He told me, like, he was still feeling like the church was true and stuff, even after he left. So he didn't let it affect his life so much. I think he compartmentalized it.

John Dehlin [01:43:07] But he eventually transitioned into non LDS life experiences.

Kevin Lundquist [01:43:12] We had in 2015 that we'll talk about in a minute. He was out by then. He was done.

John Dehlin [01:43:17] Should we go to what's next?

Kevin Lundquist [01:43:19] Let's go to. I'll just talk about what happened with me a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:43:23] Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:43:24] Because so the week after, there were two experiences. The week after I got back, Dallin H. Oaks came to our ward. And I remember just sitting in the audience wanting to punch him in the face because of all the rhetoric that he spewed. And I knew at that point I was out. I did not see him as anybody more than just an evil man.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] For those who don't know, Donny Chokes was an attorney and then a judge. And then in the early 80s, I'll say the church made him an apostle.

Kevin Lundquist [01:44:02] President of BYU first.

John Dehlin [01:44:03] Yeah. Yep. He oversaw the electroshock therapy of gay BYU students in the 70s, approved it. But then in the 80s, when he was made an apostle, if I've got my dates right.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:17] He architected the church's strategy for fighting same sex marriage, for fighting the gay agenda in state legislatures and federally. And he became the poster child for anti LGBT rhetoric for a good 20 or 30 years. And now he's the number two guy in the church. And as soon as the current 100-year-old prophet, Russell M. Nelson dies, Galilee Chokes will take over as prophet. But he literally, almost. He's probably got like a over.500 batting average of saying something homophobic in his general conference talks. And certainly in 2008-2015 timeframe, he really couldn't give a general conference talk, as far as I remember, without saying something homophobic. So I just wanted to give that context. So now you've rescued your son from his mission, who's gay. And now Oaks comes to your.

Kevin Lundquist [01:45:12] This was September of 2013. And I just, I saw him as something very different than, you know, my. The last time I'd seen an apostle was a few years before. And I still reared them as, you know, revered them as.

Kevin Lundquist [01:45:27] But I saw him and I was just angry. I was just like, I wouldn't shake his hand. I don't want anything to do with him. But the next week I was in gospel doctrine and I was teaching, I think it was section 132.

Kevin Lundquist [01:45:40] And I had a good understanding of what was going on with the church at that time. I struggled with the first vision, Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon and the priesthood, all that stuff, polygamy. And I was sitting in the class and I was teaching. I don't remember exactly what I was teaching, but there was a mission, president was there, a counselor in the stake, president was there and the general authority was there.

Kevin Lundquist [01:46:09] And towards the end of the class, There was about 10 minutes left, this guy that was always really active in the class and asked questions, he raised his hand and I said, yeah, what's your question? He said, how do you reconcile the fact that Joseph Smith had 14 year old brides, married other men's wives, and did all this before he received the revelation on polygamy? And I paused. I was a little surprised.

John Dehlin [01:46:38] He asked that somebody asks you this in gospel.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:41] Definitely off script.

Kevin Lundquist [01:46:43] Yes. And so I sat there and I thought, okay, I'm waiting for a rescue. And I look over in the corner of my eye and the general authority, the mission president and the counselor and the bishop were sitting there like this in their scriptures. They didn't say a word.

Kevin Lundquist [01:46:58] And I waited for a sec and I just, I just said, you know what, I can't reconcile it. I can't. I think it's one of those things you just. Hopefully the Lord will explain it to us and why that was okay, but I can't. Can we just move on?

Kevin Lundquist [01:47:13] And there was just silence. And I just remember, Brother Bob, can you give a closing prayer? So I went and met the two kids and Jen, they started going out to the car. And I walked into the bishop's office and I said, I'm. I'm not gonna come back to church for a while. I need to be released. And he said, no, I'm not releasing you. You're doing a great job. And I said, I can't.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:47:39] You're like, seriously?

Kevin Lundquist [01:47:41] No, I just, I just said, I Said very calmly, I said, I can't control what you do, but next week I won't be here. And you need to make sure that there's a gospel doctrine teacher. Cause I won't be. And I don't know when I'll be back. And he just kind of looked at me. I turned and walked out. And that was the last time I ever talked to him.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:00] And that is what a boundary looks like.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:48:05] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:48:05] And so I did not go back to church again after that. That was my last time that I ever went to church.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Till now.

Kevin Lundquist [01:48:13] Ever.

John Dehlin [01:48:13] Oh, never. Just for fun, since we're talking about the church not respecting boundaries, one of our funniest stories, most disturbing stories, was when we were living in a different city, and we had some friends whose son was in the mtc, and they discovered that the church wasn't true. And they wanted to just tell their son before he went overseas because they would feel bad if he served two years of his mission. Knowing that, they decided the church wasn't true. But then they didn't tell them. So they actually drove to the MTC and said, we want to talk. All they said is, we want to talk to ourselves.

Kevin Lundquist [01:48:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:54] And you know what the MTC people said?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:48:56] No.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] They said, you're not allowed to do that.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:48:59] Oh, my gosh.

Kevin Lundquist [01:49:00] Nope.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] And they're like, oh, sorry, no, we're his parents and we want to talk to ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:05] Then they were like, we're actually not really sure where he is.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Yeah, yeah. They're like, we don't know. Like, he could be anywhere.

Kevin Lundquist [01:49:12] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:49:13] But anyway, they did something very similar to you. They said, we're actually just going to sit here on this couch, and we're not leaving until you let us talk to our son.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:49:21] Thank goodness.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] So then finally, miraculously, they find him.

Kevin Lundquist [01:49:24] Shows up.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] They find him. And so he comes and they. They're like, well, can we have a room to go in? And they're like, sure. And then as they're going into the room to talk to their son, the person wants to come with them.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:36] Yes. They try to go in with them,

John Dehlin [01:49:38] and they're like, no, no, no, sorry. We want to talk to our son alone. And you know what? They said, no, you're not allowed to do that.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:49:45] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:49:46] So. So they said, we're talking to our son alone. So anyway, long story short, they left with their son and took him home. But isn't that crazy?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:56] And the interesting thing in that story was when they told their son, what I remember is the son was like, they told him. I'm so glad you told me, because I was going for you.

John Dehlin [01:50:07] I was.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:50:07] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] I was going on a mission for you. I didn't believe.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:50:11] There's so many kids that.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:13] So they walked out.

Kevin Lundquist [01:50:14] I love it.

John Dehlin [01:50:15] And then.

Kevin Lundquist [01:50:15] I love it.

John Dehlin [01:50:15] And then they had a call from their stake president on their answering machine before they made it home.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:50:21] No, I believe it.

Kevin Lundquist [01:50:23] Oh, no. No question. Oh, yeah, no question.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Wow.

Kevin Lundquist [01:50:27] That's funny, though.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:28] Celebrating. Celebrating the boundary. The boundaries set for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:33] Anyway, sorry, I don't mean to take away from your story.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:50:34] No, that's hilarious.

Kevin Lundquist [01:50:36] That's because I think.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:50:38] I think you're right. Boundaries that they just. They control. All right.

Kevin Lundquist [01:50:45] I think looking back at some of those experiences, had we not been able. Or at least I kind of blame myself. But standing up and saying, no, this isn't right. He's not going to counseling. He's not going to an LDS counselor 150 miles away. He's not staying on his mission. He's not going to stay in the church. It could have turned out very bad for him.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] Because.

Kevin Lundquist [01:51:11] No.

John Dehlin [01:51:11] We've interviewed several Mormon ex Mormon missionaries who were gay on their mission, and they wanted to die. They would walk over a bridge and want to jump off. They would just, you know, wish they wouldn't come home. Do you know what I mean? It's very common. It's disturbingly common.

Kevin Lundquist [01:51:32] It is.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:51:33] Yeah, it is. It's very sad and scary.

Kevin Lundquist [01:51:36] And to think if they didn't have that. Well, our. Our son told us later. This is hard to say. He told us later that if we would have turned on him, he would have just killed himself. He wouldn't have navigated everything that he had to navigate, which was. I mean, I can't think about how difficult it was for him, but not to have your parents back. Because I made it clear to him, I said, you're going to come home and I'm going to get really ugly here. And I didn't tell him what I did until recently. I didn't tell him what I was doing. I just said, you're going to come home. Don't talk to the mission president. Don't. Don't call him. This is mine. I'll deal with it. And you're going to come home. So just know that. And he's like, okay, yeah, I love

Margi Dehlin [01:52:23] that you set out specifics like that.

Kevin Lundquist [01:52:26] At that point, it was. It was clear that it was not gonna. It wasn't gonna fix itself.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:31] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:52:31] And. And I. I had gone from being ambivalent to over the experience to me. And he's not. He. He cannot be on his mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:41] That's right. Yeah. And I think there's considerable research about. Right. The idea of parental love support, particularly within the lgbtq, you know, experience, how pivotal it is and some of the ramifications when they don't have that something

John Dehlin [01:52:59] like kids are eight times less likely to die by suicide or attempt suicide if they feel fully supported by their parents. It's crazy.

Kevin Lundquist [01:53:10] I mean, I won't get into a narrative of the church, but I once asked this general authority, I said, why are they so polarizing? Why does Dallin Oaks have to get up there and you don't have to change the church. You don't have to change your policy. You don't have to do anything.

Kevin Lundquist [01:53:27] But instead of having him get up there and talk about how bad gays are and how they're going to hell and the parents are bad, which gives the parents lose hope. It's like, okay, my gay kid is not going to be in the celestial kingdom with me, so why don't you just get up and say, maybe it's your challenge as a faithful member to have a gay kid, and if you kick him out and marginalize him, then you can't have a temple recommend. And I said that to him, and I said, that's. It would not hurt the church at all. It wouldn't hurt the church.

Kevin Lundquist [01:53:58] It wouldn't be giving them any type of allowance. But they don't do that. They won't. You know, they just want it to be toxic. And I think they think by making it more toxic that people are going to not be gay because of it. And the ramifications are the opposite.

Kevin Lundquist [01:54:17] And so if I could say one thing, you know, to Elder Oaks, it's like, just stop the vitriol. Just. You don't have to. You have to change your policy. You don't have to change the doctrine. You don't have to like anything about it, but you're not helping the situation by the things that you say.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] So you. Because of that and because. Do you want to talk about what you read in the CES letter or what you listened to or read in Mormon think or listen to Mormon stories that contributed to your.

Faith Crisis, Polygamy, and Doubting the First Vision

Kevin Lundquist [01:54:48] It was just the standard four things. I always struggled with polygamy. When I read about the first vision and the different versions of the first vision, that became very clear that. Because I always wondered why he didn't. Here's where I struggled with Joseph Smith talking about and the church talking about how it's the most. The first vision was the most transcendent event in human history.

Kevin Lundquist [01:55:11] You know, Joseph was told not to join any church. He was told all this stuff. But ten years later, when he formed the church, he bore his testimony and said nothing about the first vision. He didn't mention it. And then two years later, oh, he comes out with this first vision that doesn't even talk about God. And so when I read the different versions and I read more than the four, I was like, this is clear. He made this up. There's no question he made this up. And then the Book of Abraham, you know, that was easy. And then I had studied the Book of Mormon and kind of tried to tie that back to history and are the, you know, the anachronisms and everything.

Kevin Lundquist [01:55:47] And it's. For me, it wasn't one thing like it was for her. It was more the sum total of everything kind of. You know, it's like the sum total of these experiences make you who you are. And it's like, okay, in isolation, people say, well, you don't understand about polygamy. Yeah, you're right, maybe I don't. But then I don't understand about all these other things too. And when you look at it in the sum total, I just drew the conclusion that there's no way this is. I'm not going to waste another minute of my life with this church. I've been deceived for 43 years or whatever it was. I'm not going to spend another minute. And so I told her, she didn't really want to hear anything about it.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:56:26] I was totally. La, la, la, la.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:27] It was, Was this before or after you went to the bishop's office? And you were like, so it was after that?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:56:34] Okay, yeah. It was when he told me that he was never going back that he started trying to tell me why. And I'm like, you know what you do you. But la, la, la, la, la. You know, because the church has always taught us, don't listen to anything against the church. Don't read any literature. He's like, I'd like you to read this.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] Even your spouse.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:56:50] Yeah, yeah. He's like, I'd like, you know what? No, that's anti Mormon. Keep that away from me, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] So did you have a time that you were in kind of a mixed faith marriage then?

Kevin Lundquist [01:56:59] For over a year?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:57:00] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [01:57:01] Yeah, over a year.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:57:02] Yeah. I was convinced he was going to hell and my celestial family was gone, but I still loved him. I wasn't gonna give him up. So we just agreed to disagree.

Kevin Lundquist [01:57:10] Yeah, we got to the point where we just didn't talk about it and she'd get up and go. So the only fallout that happened immediately is our second kid was going to seminary and hated it. And I said, I don't care, I'm pulling rank. You don't have to go to seminary. But they still went. The two younger kids still went to church. And then we moved from Tokyo back to the US and so we moved into.

Kevin Lundquist [01:57:34] She moved back before I did and went to Utah and was going to church and stuff like that. And then I moved back and then we moved to California. And so I think our second kid had stopped going to church when they moved to Utah and they were only here for six months. And then we moved to California. And then she started going to church in California a little bit with our daughter. But then our daughter was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And I told her, I said, She's 12, I'm not going to force a 12 year old to go to church if she doesn't want to.

Kevin Lundquist [01:58:02] And our younger kid, he had gone to Nebraska as well. He wanted to do software engineering with a minor in robotics and they had that program. He wasn't as academically to the level that our older son was, but he still got a scholarship. And so he was there and our older son was there and so that.

John Dehlin [01:58:23] You were a cornhusker. You go out for Utes to Cornhuskers.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:58:25] I know, right?

Kevin Lundquist [01:58:26] To go blue, Michigan daughters, Wolverines. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:33] So how are you feeling, Jen, during this time especially? It sounds like you might have had some grief and loss about.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:58:43] Yeah. Cause my whole family, My whole family was gone. They were out of it. I mean, I still had a lot of hard feelings about what Josh went through though. So I was still in that. Okay. The church is true, the people are not. The church is true. You know, and even as a card carrying member of the church, I always had a hard time that I was never enough. You know, I don't do enough visiting, teaching, I don't do this. And so there's all that guilt that you get when you're not living up to what you think is, which you're

Margi Dehlin [01:59:09] always not, to be clear. Yeah, no one can.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:59:13] No, you can't. But, you know, I was like, okay, I'm not enough. My family's left. So that was hard. And then for me, the final nail in the coffin was my little brother called and he had seen something on Reddit. That sounded a lot like Kevin. So he's like, has Kevin left the church?

Jennifer Lundquist [01:59:31] And I'm like, yeah, he has. And so then he convinced me to read the same CES letter that Kevin had been trying to get me to read. And so here's another person that I value. Of course I value Kevin above all. But then the only other than my kids that matter are my dad and my father in law and my brother.

Jennifer Lundquist [01:59:53] That's the crux is my family. And so my little brother, who I've always had on a pedestal anyway because he's probably definitely a more amazing person than I am in life, when he said, you should read that because I've been having struggles too, and you should read this. Okay, well, both my little brother and my husband are saying I should read this, I'll read it. And when I read it, and I mean, it basically takes Joseph Smith out of the picture. And once you can't believe in Joseph Smith, the church crumbles.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:20] Right.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:00:21] So. And so that was hard because I still, you know, firmly believe in God, but it's like I need some religion. But if you've been a Mormon, it's so hard to pick up another religion because they don't seem right.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:34] Right.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:00:35] So I was having a, my own crisis of faith after that, but.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:38] And where was that?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:00:39] This was in California.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:40] So this was happening for you?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:00:41] Yeah, this was in California as well.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:43] Okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:00:44] And then, and then the.

Kevin Lundquist [02:00:46] Well, she had stopped going to church about six months before because she was going alone.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:52] Okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:00:52] And I was working on a lot of Sundays anyway as a nurse.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:55] I see.

Kevin Lundquist [02:00:56] But I had a funny experience when I went to Utah when I was, I was, I was there for just a short time. But I thought, you know what, I'm just, I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm going to go and try this. And so we went to the ward and the bishop there was really nice, but I hadn't really interacted with him. It was the one Sunday I just thought, I'm going to go to church. I sat in sacrament meeting and then I went to the high priest group and I'm sitting in high priest and they're arguing about something and this guy stands up and he goes, you guys stop talking about it.

Kevin Lundquist [02:01:25] You're too worried about the blacks. The blacks were less valiant in the pre existence and that's why they're black. And I remember hearing that like, are they really saying this? It's 2014 and I got up and left. I walked out and Jen was in the hall. And I remember it distinctly. I was going out one door, and she's down the hall. And I said, go in the parking lot. And she walked in the parking lot. I said, I'm never coming back to this church as long as I live. Ever. I. I'm done.

Kevin Lundquist [02:01:56] I was started. Those were seeds of resignation for me. They didn't. It took a little while longer and a couple events we could talk about, but I swore I'd never go back after that. I was like, okay. This just reaffirmed everything I'd known. And it had been almost a year since I'd been to church.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Yeah. So the theme that I think we started with was the idea of family over church. And maybe a different way to describe that is sort of like feeling like the Mormon church is threatening the safety or health of your family. Having to choose between church or family. Did you feel like that that sort of choice was being presented to you?

Mixed-Faith Marriage and Drifting From the Church

Jennifer Lundquist [02:02:45] When I was still active, I definitely was feeling that way because, you know, again, you know, I'm supposed to be striving to go to the celestial kingdom, and what good is that going to be if my family's not there with me, you know? And the church itself had done so much of that damage.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:03:01] So that was really hard because it was getting harder and harder to say, the church is true, the people are not. The church is true. The people are not. Just hold on. It's the people that are a problem. The church itself is perfect, like I said, until I read that CES letter and it all crumbled after. It was almost a relief for me when I finally was like, I can't believe enough Joseph Smith. I'm like, okay, the pressure's off. You know, I'm not. It doesn't matter that I'm not good enough. It doesn't matter that my family has left. It's going to be okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] And I just have to ask this. What's it like during that time you feel like your husband's lost and fallen? Like, well, I'm still on the straight and narrow, but my husband's fallen, and now my kids are.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:03:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] And so, like, my family's going to the dark side, but I'm still faithful. What does that do to a family dynamic and a mom?

Margi Dehlin [02:03:56] Like, the role and the responsibility, particularly given a mother and a wife.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:04:02] Right. Yeah, it's everything. I mean, again, like, I've always said, family's first, so I wasn't gonna let it affect my family, you know, because at that point, I'd been with this man over 20 years, and, you know, we've raised these kids, and they're all good kids, church or not. They were all incredible kids. They've never had, you know, drug issues or anything. They were all just good kids. They're easy. Yeah. They treated people well, you know, And I don't want to say they're perfect. Obviously. No one's perfect. But overall, when I could compare our experiences with these kids to other people's experiences, I'm like, man, I have got just the most amazing kids, whether or not they're in the church.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:04:39] And same with him. I mean, he may not be going to church, but he was volunteering to do search and rescue. He was volunteering to help prisoners, you know, so he's giving back in better ways than I ever did.

Kevin Lundquist [02:04:49] So I'm like, But that's kind of the mind twist.

John Dehlin [02:04:52] Is that okay? My husband and kids are great, but they're all followed.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:04:57] And that was hard, you know, I was like, okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:59] Dissonance, right?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:05:00] Is that what you're saying? There was that dissonance, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] Or even, like, this weird position of disappointment. What's it like to live feeling like your spouse and your children are disappointments?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:05:12] Well, I don't want to say I was ever disappointed in them. I probably took a lot of it onto myself, like, I hadn't been good enough to try to overcome that. I hadn't been good enough of a wife to maybe support him the way I needed to, to help him not fall.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:25] Exactly.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:05:26] And like the kid that quit seminary, I had always told, well, she's a she now, so she's a transgender woman. So I had always told her, I need two things from you as a high school student. I need you to graduate high school. I need you to graduate seminary. And so even though he let her off the hook, she still came to me. She's like, dad said, I don't need to go to seminary. I really don't want to go. I hate seminary. And I'm like, you know what? After everything that's gone on with Josh, there's more important fish to fry, you know? And she still came to church with me. She still did. Even when he would stay home, she still did all the things until when we were in Utah and Kevin finally said, we don't have to do this anymore. But I still felt like a failure,

Margi Dehlin [02:06:15] which that makes sense to me. It feels like you took all of that judgment that you might have had, like, you were boundaried enough. To me, this is what I'm Hearing that, you were able to. To still see them in more of an objective, larger frame of reference, but you turned it all on you.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:06:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:34] So it was internal, which I think

Jennifer Lundquist [02:06:37] that really means to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:39] Yes. For one thing, what we're kind of given as for the responsibility for our children in particular and inferred is everyone else.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:06:50] Exactly. Because, I mean, I even look at the way the church views it, like, especially going back to the LGBTQ thing. You know, you parents have raised these gay kids. You should not let this happen. And, you know, there's all that. And, you know, there's conference talks. If your kids leave the church, it's your fault because you didn't raise them right. You know, and I always felt a little bit of guilt because our parents, as supportive as they've always been, I always felt bad that I think that they would internalize some of that, you know, because none of their kids, you know, both sets of parents, none of their kids are members of the church or, you know, active at least.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:07:25] And so I'm sure that they all felt like failures. I mean, I know his mom probably still puts our names in the temple. I'm sure she does. Right. Hoping against hope. And she loves us anyway. You know, none of them have ever judged us. They all still go to church. They all still support us. You know, they accept our kids for who they are and love them. Which I feel like is amazing with all the rhetoric that you get with the church, especially on that older generation, because I think that senior generation has a harder time accepting the LGBT community than most people.

Kevin Lundquist [02:07:57] But we had to actively work that to. So we. So we moved to California in 2014. She really didn't go to church in the summer, May of 2014. She didn't really go to church much.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:08:13] I don't want to go alone.

Kevin Lundquist [02:08:15] And so there was almost a year that we did. We didn't ever talk about the church at all. We just didn't mention it. I didn't care if she went to church. We were at a point where we just didn't talk about it. She wanted to go to church, wanted to be active. Fine. She could be active. She didn't bother me about going to church. She never asked me to go to church anything.

Kevin Lundquist [02:08:35] But then when she read what she read, I remember I was sitting on the couch doing work on my computer, and she walks up and she's like, I'm out of church. I'm not doing this anymore either. And it was because of the first vision. I was like, holy crap. Welcome to the dark side.

Daughter's Situation and the 2015 Exclusion Policy

Kevin Lundquist [02:08:50] And so we didn't say a lot. But then we went into this in 2014. In the fall of 2014 was when our daughter turned 12. And, you know, I told you guys she was getting love bombed by the church and they were sending her all these things. But then at school, the girls would totally ignore her.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] The Mormon girls.

Kevin Lundquist [02:09:10] Mormon girls would totally ignore her. And she didn't care about that. She just thought it was odd. She was like, these guys come by the house and want me to come to seminary. They want me go to church, but then they walk by me in the hall and stick their noses up. And she had a different group of friends, so it wasn't a big deal to her. She didn't really care. But so we went quite a while until 2015. But in that time, our parents were calling saying, well, Sydney going to church, why is she not going to Young Women's? You're denying her that opportunity. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:09:42] They were on you a little bit.

Kevin Lundquist [02:09:43] Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they were on us, and they didn't know. And so I decided the best way to do it because we wanted to be really respectful to them. We didn't want to, you know, we knew this was going to rock their world. And, you know, our. My in laws have always treated me good. I think my mom and dad loved her more than they loved me.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:10:00] My favorite mother, favorite child.

Kevin Lundquist [02:10:02] So we wanted to, you know, we wanted to walk that line very carefully. So I wrote an email to the family, and I just said, look, I don't want to go into the reasons, but we've left the church and we don't really want to have a dialogue.

Kevin Lundquist [02:10:17] And I put at the end, I said, you know, there's historical things, there's things that we've been through with Josh. There's just the sum total of all these things. And my dad called me and he said, I want to know what you've read.

Kevin Lundquist [02:10:33] And my dad was always the type of person that I knew he would give me an objective view. And I said, dad, I don't really want to do. He's like, no, I want to know. He's like, you said there was a lot of doctrine.

Kevin Lundquist [02:10:45] I said, all right. So I think I sent him the link to Mormon Think and the CES letter. And he called me back a couple days later, and in his wisdom that he is as a father, he said to me, he said, I read what you gave me. And he said, I understand how you've drawn the conclusion that you Drew. And what was that like?

Margi Dehlin [02:11:11] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:11:11] Amazing. And he said, I'm. You know, I'll never change the way I feel about you. You're my son. You have to make the decision for you and your family. And he said, I'm too old to think through that. And I said, dad, I don't want you to think through it. I didn't even want you to read it. I said, the church works for you and mom, and it should work for you and Mom. You know, they live in Salt Lake. And I said, I just don't want to be a disappointment to you. And he's like, I support you fully. And that was the last. He unfortunately died a year later.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:43] I'm so sorry.

Kevin Lundquist [02:11:44] That was the last conversation we ever had about the church. And when I would see him, I would talk to him every week. I called him every week religiously. We were best friends. And he would never bring up the church. He would never ask me about the church. We'd always talk about him. You know, what was going on with him and my mom, what was going on with me and the kids and Jen and my career.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:04] Yeah. So much to talk about.

Kevin Lundquist [02:12:06] Yeah. No, no. No judgment. And my mom. I knew my. I knew it hurt my mom, and I tried to really like. And I had a conversation with my mom in 2014, because in 2015, and it was right before we decided to walk away, she came out and she was asking me, like, well, okay, you don't believe in Jesus. You don't believe in God. You don't believe in anything. And I said, mom, I've done a lot of research and a lot of study and a lot of thought.

Kevin Lundquist [02:12:38] And I said, but let me ask you a question. If the church wasn't true, would you want to know? And she said, absolutely not. I said, okay, then we should never have another conversation about the church. I said, you do you. She works in the temple. She's active. She's just believes everything.

Kevin Lundquist [02:12:57] And I said, I don't want to. I don't want to ruin anything for. I don't want to talk about it. Let's never talk about it again. And we really haven't. In 10 years, we haven't talked about it. But what.

Kevin Lundquist [02:13:09] What happened going into 2015, you know, so it's a year later. Both the kids are at school. Our daughter's in high school now. We don't really talk about the church. We don't really think about it. We have no contact with the church. And then the Supreme Court ruling happens in 2015. When they.

John Dehlin [02:13:29] Oh, Burgerfeld.

Kevin Lundquist [02:13:30] Yeah. When they came back and said, the states don't have rights here federally, gay marriage is allowed. And I watched the way the church responded to it and it kind of made me mad. They sent out a thing saying, well, even the knowledgeable leaders of the world will make the wrong decisions against God's will and all that. And I was like, you know, how petty. But I didn't say anything. And then a few months later, when the November policy came out, I read that and I went home and I told Jen, I said, I'm out, I'm done. I'm not going to have my name associated with this church.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:14:03] I agree.

Kevin Lundquist [02:14:04] I don't care.

John Dehlin [02:14:05] Meaning resigned?

Kevin Lundquist [02:14:06] Yes, resigned.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:14:06] Yeah. We took our name. Yeah. I was incensed by that reaction.

Kevin Lundquist [02:14:12] So I told the three kids, I said, this is what I'm doing. And maybe I'll just say, for those

John Dehlin [02:14:20] who don't know, we've tried to tell people, basically, the church made legal same sex marriage an act of apostasy, worse than rape or incest or murder because it required a mandatory excommunication. And then it made it so that children of same sex married couples couldn't get confirmed, couldn't be baptized, couldn't advance in the priesthood, and only could join when they were 18 if they denounced their parents in marriage. That was the November 2015 policy the Mormon Church made in response to the legalization of same sex marriage.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:14:57] Families are forever. And you're okay, fine. Yeah. The gay people may not be there, but you should still let them be parents and not let the kid make the kids choose not to have those parents anymore. I was just incensed.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:15:10] So I sent a note to the bishop, and I never talked to the bishop. I never had any communication with him. She had, but I hadn't. And I just said, hey, you know, she had transferred our records, which I didn't want her to, but she did, and that's fine, whatever. Because again, I didn't care if she was going to church and they didn't contact me. And so I emailed them and I said, we want to resign, all five of us. And I have five letters I'm going to send you. And he said, well, will you give me the courtesy of coming over and talking to you?

Kevin Lundquist [02:15:38] And I said, okay, yeah, fine. I'm good with that. I'd never met the guy. And so it happened over Christmas. This is Bay area, Bay Area 2015, December, over Christmas. And we arranged for them to come over and our kids were there.

Kevin Lundquist [02:15:55] So they came over it was the bishop. It was the first counselor in the Stake Presidency and the first counselor in the bishopric, all really nice guys. So we're talking, and all three of the kids are sitting there, there. And Josh is sitting to my left up on the. The arm of the couch where I'm sitting. And he's talking. He's engaged. He's talking about school and all that.

Kevin Lundquist [02:16:14] And I kind of just outlined a little bit why we were going to leave and stuff like that. And they said, man, you guys are the most amazing family. You guys could bring so much to the church. Please consider.

Kevin Lundquist [02:16:27] We could really use you and your tithing. We were both working and, you know, making okay. Money. And so I stopped and I said to the bishop, I said, okay. I said, I've heard you. I said, if you can tell me that there's a place in the church for him. And I pointed to Josh. I said, we'll reconsider.

John Dehlin [02:16:50] This is your gay son.

Kevin Lundquist [02:16:51] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:16:51] Yeah. The transgender one. Wasn't transgender yet.

Kevin Lundquist [02:16:54] Yeah. I said, if you can tell me that there's a place where he's not going to be single, lonely, celibate, and marginalized by the church, will reconsider. And I was expecting church speak. And he sat there for a minute, and he looked at the counselor and the Stake Presidency and the counselor and the bishopric, and he put his head up and he said, I can't tell you that.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:17:15] To his credit.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:16] Yeah, honest.

Kevin Lundquist [02:17:17] I said, thank you for being honest. And they got up, and I handed him five letters, and they walked out. And four weeks later, we got for five letters from the church, and I had individually done all of the letters, and by that time, all the two older kids were 18, so they signed theirs. And then I had Sidney, who would have been. She would have been 12, 13. She signed hers, but then I signed hers for her, and we were all out and never been back to church since.

Kevin Lundquist [02:17:48] And so we didn't tell our parents, though, that, because we felt like that was going to be, like. They didn't need to know that. Why kick them when they're down? We told them later, years later, like a few years ago.

Kevin Lundquist [02:18:04] I don't remember how it came out, but it came out. And they were disappointed because I think they know that the only way that we could ever go back is with First Presidency approval, and they'd never allow it. They don't let people back in that are apostates and that resignation.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:20] So, yeah, I mean, they do. If you, you know, renounce all your.

Kevin Lundquist [02:18:25] I think if you really believes.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:18:26] Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:18:27] Renounce our kids and renounce. Yeah. And go crawling back, but not gonna happen. I think it's a process. I think it's. It's. It would be a major process to do that.

Life After Leaving and Reflections on Family

John Dehlin [02:18:38] So I have a question. Like, it's been 10 years since y' all resigned from the Mormon Church. What made you want to apply to Beyond Mormon Stories? Ten years after leaving the church, like, some would say, okay, few years, maybe five, but 10, some would say, I'm sure by 10 years, they'd be moved on. They would have stopped even paying attention to podcasts. They would just be living their big, beautiful secular life or religious life, but certainly moved on from even wanting to talk about it, let alone come on a podcast and tell your story. So I'm curious about that.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:19:14] Well, for me, like, I feel like a lot of what we went through, some people maybe, you know, especially with LGBTQ kids, you know, and how the church, I still feel like sometimes, even though they've tried to soften it, I still feel like there's that underlying message of not accepting them. And so, you know, and I feel like there might be even a dichotomy of feeling like, you know, okay, I love my church, but I love my kid. And I don't know, I'm hoping if I can bring some kind of.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:41] Of.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:19:41] Or that we can bring some kind of your kids. It. You know, you can. And at the time, I was still a faithful member of the church while supporting my son and loving my son, because, you know, as a mama bear, you love your kids above everybody if you're doing it right. I feel like.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:19:57] And I know the church teaches God first and, like, pretty much church, then spouse, then kids. And I was like the God that I was taught to love that, you know, I spent so much time a primary. The song that always comes up to me is Jesus said, love everyone. Teach him kindly to, you know, when your heart is filled, love others will love you type of thing. And I'm like, the God that I was taught to love and respect and worship would love my gay son, you know, so for anybody to try to tell me any differently and that the church shouldn't accept this child that was sent down from God, that's just. It doesn't miss.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:33] And your trans child.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:20:34] And my trans child. Yeah. I always say the gay one, because the trans one came out just a couple years ago.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:39] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:20:40] So she didn't have to deal with hating. And I'm so glad she didn't, because she has such A different mindset. She's already had some depression issues and everything. And so I can't even fathom what would have happened with her if she was in the church going through what she's going through now.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:55] That added that she would have committed suicide.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:20:57] Yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:58] Yeah. I mean, that's right.

Kevin Lundquist [02:21:00] And she struggled a lot.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:21:01] It's devastating because, honestly, I feel like sometimes she's the glue that holds the family together. She's the one that every couple weeks, like, hey, we're getting together for dinner.

John Dehlin [02:21:07] Your trans kid.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:21:08] My trans kid. Yeah. So she, you know, the family is everything for her, too. So I can't imagine a church that would try to harm that.

John Dehlin [02:21:15] Yeah, absolutely. Let me. I want to talk about your trans kid. But before that, you said, you know, you're not going to put up with the church that tells you not to love your gay son or whatever. Like, this is just kind of for the sake of dialogue. An orthodox Mormon would say, well, the church doesn't tell you not to love your gay son. You love your gay son. The church loves your gay son. Jesus loves your gay son. Don H. Oaks loves your gay son.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:21:42] Now they do.

John Dehlin [02:21:43] No, no, no.

Kevin Lundquist [02:21:43] I'm just.

John Dehlin [02:21:44] No, here's. Let me ask the question. What a Mormon would say, would say, love everyone. Jesus loves everyone. But we all have to live the law of chastity. And the church is simply asking your gay son to live the law of chastity like everybody else. It's not about love, love. It's about obeying God's commandments. Would both of you take turns responding to that?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:22:09] I was going to say to acknowledge

Margi Dehlin [02:22:11] the question is problematic.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:22:12] Was fully planning to do that. You know, he went on his mission, for Pete's sake. He was planning to live that life of celibacy. You know, he believed in the church even after he came back from his mission. Well, longer than he did. So he was going to do that. And, you know, I felt bad for him that that was the life he was going to lead, but I was like, look at my wonderful, perfect son. That's still going to be a part of the church. What an amazing kid. You know, now it's your turn.

Kevin Lundquist [02:22:42] You can't make that correlation. You're comparing apples and oranges. So when we. I told you when we were dating, we were like these horny teenagers that have. And out, you know, March 29th, man, we're good. We're going. They don't have that. So, yeah, you're right. They hold them on the same plane that nobody that's not married, can have sex, but they can't get married. You know, the church, if the church would even allow some allowance. And in California, I think they do a little bit look the other way, that if there's a married couple, you know, and they can come to church. But overall, the church says if you're out to that, yeah, you're heterosexual, gay, whatever you are, you can't have sex, according to the church. Well, heterosexual couples have an out to that. They get married. But if a gay couple gets married, they're in deeper water, like you said

Margi Dehlin [02:23:34] with the church, gets worse.

Kevin Lundquist [02:23:35] So it's not a relevant comparison because they don't. The only way to stay happy, healthy, thriving in the church is to be celibate, sad and lonely, which is not

Margi Dehlin [02:23:46] a way for them to be happy. Be healthy.

Kevin Lundquist [02:23:48] No, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:49] Even based on John's research?

Kevin Lundquist [02:23:52] Oh, absolutely not. No, there's no question.

John Dehlin [02:23:55] Okay, so loving the sinner but hating the sin and consigning your kid to a life of loneliness isn't love for you, Is that what you're saying?

Kevin Lundquist [02:24:07] I can't. Here's where I struggled. John is. I mean, like Jen said, we. We knew early on that he was gay. So like, when he told me when he was 14, I wasn't shocked. And I don't know why, you know, he didn't carry himself as whatever. He just. I don't know why it didn't shock me.

Kevin Lundquist [02:24:27] And so I. There's no one that can convince me that he wasn't born that way. So I'm gonna step on my own toes and say, if there is a God, which I don't think there is, but if there is, he created that. So why would you create something that you're going to penalize for a behavior that you've created? And if you try to tell me, well, you know, people say, well, it's no different than somebody that's disabled.

Kevin Lundquist [02:24:54] I don't believe that disabled people don't have the same disadvantages as somebody who's gay because they're, you know, they have struggles that, you know, a lot of other people don't. And, you know, you limit them based. Someone, like, they use the example, well, maybe it's a trial in life, but God is stopping. He gives them the trial and then he's stopping them purposely. His rule, stopping them from being happy. It's like, I'm going to make you gay and then I'm going to limit you from being married or being happy or healthy. And I want you to Be celibate and lonely your whole life. I can't picture that a God would do that.

Kevin Lundquist [02:25:32] That I just can't. A loving, kind, Christlike heavenly father. Because if that is him, I don't want to be with him. I'm going to go hang out with Satan in hell.

John Dehlin [02:25:42] Does it change your view at all to know, like you kind of said that, like we know about this guy Charlie Bird, who is a cosmo, the Cougar at BYU, BYU's mascot. He's now a really well known, kind of faithful Mormon public figure. He's married to his husband Ryan.

John Dehlin [02:25:58] They live in a ward, as far as I know, in Alpine, Utah. They have callings and the Mormon Church just kind of turns their head and looks away. And more and more, I think the church is allowing same sex married couples, even though it's supposed to be an act of apostasy and an excommunicable offense. I think they've lost so many people by being viewed as bigots that more and more, less and less is the church excommunicating same sex married couples. And more and more they're just turning their head the other way, even though it's still technically a sin. Does that change your views about, you know, the church at all?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:26:34] I feel like that goes more towards the people, you know, to the credit of the people that are accepting them. I feel like it's more that.

John Dehlin [02:26:41] But the leaders could crack down.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:26:43] And that's, that's exactly my fear is the leaders, Boy K Packer, whoever could suddenly crack down and say, okay, all you people that have been letting these people thrive in your church, hello, that's against our policy. What are you doing?

Kevin Lundquist [02:26:54] Keep in mind you're one heartbeat away from a total change. And I think when Oaks takes over, he's going to go the opposite direction.

John Dehlin [02:27:02] What do you mean?

Kevin Lundquist [02:27:03] I think he's going to cramp down. I think Nelson is kind of pushing back because he's seen the floodgates and he's seen all of the issues with. We can force it as much as we want, but it's not accepted. People are leaving because of it. They're. There's heterosexual couples who don't have gay kids or gay family members that are leaving over it. I mean, they're like, I'm not going to stick around with a church that's homophobic. And I think, like I said, we're one heartbeat away or lack of a heartbeat away from potentially going the other way.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:27:35] Well, and I honestly feel like at this point, with all the damage the church has done, if they suddenly say, you know what? We now embrace all gay people. You can all do all the things. How's that different from suddenly accepting black people? So black people were evil before 1970. Whatever. And now they're okay to have full standing in the church.

Kevin Lundquist [02:27:54] But to answer your question, I think it would be amazing if the church could, again, they don't have to change any of their policies. Just say, okay, if you're a civilly married gay couple and you're living within the boundaries of that marriage, so you're not committing adultery, you're not out doing crazy stuff, you're in the same boundaries as a heterosexual couple. You know, we may not let you be a bishop, we may not let you be an elders quorum president, but, you know, we'll let you be gospel doctrine teacher. We'll let you do something. We'll let you have a place in the church, and we'll accept it.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:28:24] Like you said, we're not gonna ever

Kevin Lundquist [02:28:25] let you get married in the temple. That's fine. I don't think they'll ever go to those lengths, and that's fine. They don't have to. But I think they would get. They would raise a lot of political capital by doing something like that, by just saying, you know, And I think in California, they do. There's a lot of stories of. Of gay couples that are in the church and they're having callings and they're active, and they're a lot more accepted, I think, than other places in the country.

John Dehlin [02:28:51] I mean, that's happening sometimes in Utah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:28:53] Yeah. Like you mentioned Cosmo.

Kevin Lundquist [02:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:56] Okay. So, but then there's the problem of is it even true? Right. Whether or not the church. There's still the problem of even if the church all of a sudden reversed, everything was super kind. LGBTQ people.

Kevin Lundquist [02:29:09] Yeah. They can never go back on what. I mean, you can't. It's like a house of cards. You can never put back. I mean, there's still all the doctrinal issues, all the historical issues.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:19] Historical issues being kind or allowing, I'm going to say in quotation marks, like allowing a gay couple to participate in a ward. There's still the question of if the policy still states that basically you're evil or less than. And that's why you. Whether that's really healthy. Is that something we would want for our child to be participating, even if it feels kind, but, you know, at a root level, really judges.

Kevin Lundquist [02:29:52] That's also a leadership roulette.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:54] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:29:55] Because you could have a bishop in a ward. That's great. And you could have a bishop in a ward that. I don't think the church will ever come back and say, okay, if you're married civilly and you're a gay couple and you're falling within these parameters that we hold heterosexual couples, you can be active in the church. I don't think they'll ever do that. I think they just. I think what they're doing in cases like you brought up, John, and some of these wards in California, I think they're just looking the other way.

John Dehlin [02:30:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Another tough topic. So, you know, we were. We always considered ourselves LGBT allies, at least. At least from 2000 on, but we didn't think much about the T. The trans gender kind of stuff, at least. I didn't know much about it, really understand it until, you know, people close to us came out as trans. This is after I gave my TED Talk encouraging LGBT support. After I did my research, I still didn't understand. Transgender is totally a separate thing than sexuality. People totally confuse them. The church still confuses them. The government is talking about, you know, gender and sex as if they're sexuality, as if they're one.

John Dehlin [02:31:07] Anyway, I thought, you know, there was this sort of time period from, like, let's just say 2004 to, like, 2015 and beyond, where it looked like the whole US was kind of just moving in the pro LGBT direction, and it was just a matter of time before that just became a non issue. And then the transgender issue became heavily politicized to, say, four to six years ago. And once it got politicized, it's almost like half of the country has kind of almost declared psychological war on the transgender community, and that's been really hard. And I'm. And I just want to say there's probably a big chunk of our.

John Dehlin [02:31:50] Our viewers and listeners that are probably wouldn't feel very affirming of transgender, you know, people or transitioning. So do y' all want to just talk briefly about anything about what that was like for y' all to have a kid and you don't have to talk about it, but if you want to, just to give your perspective for those who are either not great, not feeling great about that, or confused about it or want to learn more?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:32:20] Well, for me, it was almost harder than our other son coming out gay because, you know, with the transgender population, they don't like their old self, you know? Okay, so her name is Nova. She came out, and so I felt like I had to Kind of mourn my son a little bit.

Kevin Lundquist [02:32:41] And.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:32:42] And I hate to make it sound like it's a bad thing, because Nova and I have always been close from her whole life. We've always been close and we still are. You know, she likes to joke around that she's my favorite kid. And I always just say, whoever's doing whatever at this time is my favorite kid. It changes. That's how parents are. But she and I, as a rule, have always been very close.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:33:02] And like I said, we still are. But I had to mourn the son that I was losing. And to her credit, she allows that. You know, she allows if we make a mistake and accidentally call her George and she loves. We might actually call her he, you know, and it's been a couple years, but sometimes a slip will come. And like, I even at one point talked about getting a tattoo, you know, have the flower tattoos, and they always have two flowers for each month. And I asked her permission. I said, if I get that, I kind of want to do both flowers for your birth month because I want one to represent the little boy I raised and then one to represent the woman that you've become.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:33:37] And she was so good about it. She's like, I appreciate that you asked me first and, yeah, that's a great idea. Which I think is so amazing because there are so many people that do have such self loathing for the gender that they don't feel that they identify with. And I love that she respects the fact that, yeah, I raised her as a boy for 28 years and I shouldn't cry because I feel like I'm over the mourning part now. I just always am. Okay, when she finishes transition, she's still going to be okay.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:34:05] Is she gonna get out of it what she's hoping to get out of it if she finishes the transition? But, you know, my mom still worries about me and I'm not in my 20s anymore or my teen years, you know, so I'll worry about her and all my other kids until the day they die. It's just whatever issue that's right until, you know, whatever issue each child has. But right now that's her issue as she's transitioning and issues. Is she gonna be okay when the process is complete? Is she getting out of it what she hopes she'll get out of it? I don't know. I'm rambling off on that.

Kevin Lundquist [02:34:38] For me, I get it's a different issue than, you know, I think we got to a point where it's like gay People are just accepted. Just let it. You know, it's like the meme, if you don't want. If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one. Just stay out of their business.

Kevin Lundquist [02:34:55] I think the transition is a little bit different because it is. It can be very polarizing because, you know, and I've talked. When she came out, she told us, and I got it. I will tell you, I don't understand it. I didn't understand it. I was just like, okay, we didn't see this one coming.

Kevin Lundquist [02:35:16] But she had been depressed. She's suffered from depression. And she told us that she felt like a lot of the depression, the mental health, was because of this. And so I. We went to dinner with her and our older son, and they told us. We're like, okay, whatever. And I called her, I said, I want to have dinner with you.

Kevin Lundquist [02:35:34] And so I went. Picked her up and we went to dinner. And I've always had the relationship that I could talk to him. And I said, just make sure you're 100% sure before you do anything that you can't come back on. I said, I don't care if this helps you with your mental health and helps you be the person that you need to be. I don't care.

Kevin Lundquist [02:35:52] And I think, you know, we've got that. And she's not the kind of person that's, you know, advocating for surgeries for 6 year olds or competition in sports. And I won't go there. I understand why that's so polarizing. What I'm hoping eventually it can get to is let trans people be trans people. You don't have to like it, just accept it. You know, I don't.

Kevin Lundquist [02:36:20] I don't try to question and I don't try to ask questions if it's the right thing, if it's what drove it, if it's gonna make her happy and that's how she's gonna live her life, then that's fine with me. I don't care. I would rather, you know, I'd rather a trans kid or a gay kid than a dead kid. And that was something that I always worried about with her because she did have mental health issues. Like I said, when Josh came home from his mission and went to school, I didn't worry about him anymore because he was our normal kid. He was just. I don't want to.

Kevin Lundquist [02:36:53] I shouldn't use the word normal. He was what he was before his normal. He'd gotten over all this. And so with Nova, she struggled a lot with mental health. And it worried me. I was afraid we were gonna get a call that, you know, that she didn't want to do it anymore. And then when she came out, I was trans. I think she still struggles, but not to the degree that she used to. And if that's what it takes, then I'm okay with that.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:16] Right?

Kevin Lundquist [02:37:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:18] Yeah. And it's obviously true. Better a trans kid than a dead kid, but better a trans kid than a depressed, sad, miserable.

Kevin Lundquist [02:37:26] Exactly.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:37:27] We want her to live her best life and be happy.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:30] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:37:33] When I was seeing a therapist about, you know, understanding this issue myself, I remember feeling that same thing about, well, what if they make a decision that they can't come back from? And the therapist said, maybe they will. Yeah, but that's not your job.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:37:48] Your job is to just support them with whatever they're going through at that time.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:52] I think so. And also. And also, haven't there been decisions we've made that we haven't been able to come back from? Isn't that like, actually part of being human?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:38:02] It really is. It really is.

John Dehlin [02:38:05] Yeah. And the therapist said if they end up regretting a decision they make, they'll, you know, we'll get to that point and then we'll make decisions at that point.

Kevin Lundquist [02:38:14] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:14] That just wasn't the case at all. The reverse was true. So.

Kevin Lundquist [02:38:19] And so now I think, you know, we. We're really close to all three of our kids. We. They live, the. The two older kids live together in an apartment. They're both. One's a software engineer, one's a bio chemist.

John Dehlin [02:38:31] Still in Nebraska?

Kevin Lundquist [02:38:32] No, no. Now they're 20 minutes away.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:38:34] Yeah. So we get together like every other week.

John Dehlin [02:38:37] They're living a healthy, happy life.

Kevin Lundquist [02:38:38] Yeah. Yeah. And they still. They go on vacation with us, we go to dinner with them, we have them over to the house. It's just a normal. Right.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:38:44] Our older one has a boyfriend that I love to death. You know, we can, you know, hopefully it always still works out because honestly, I couldn't choose better for him. Yeah, but you always hope for an in law, right? That, that you can like and appreciate.

Kevin Lundquist [02:38:59] He comes to dinner too. And you know, like, we usually go to Hawaii as a family once a year. And, you know, they look forward to going with us. And, you know, we pay for it, of course, because we don't want to. We want them to, you know, feel like, you know, we don't want the burden on them. And so we, and we enjoy that time. It's an opportunity to get together and get them kind of isolated from everything else and just spend family time together. And so the five of us go, you know, we do stuff like she said, we go to dinner every other week at least sometimes they come over to the house.

Kevin Lundquist [02:39:31] Sometimes if she's working on a weekend and I'm bored, I'll text Nova or Josh and be like, hey, what are you guys doing? You wanna go to dinner? I'll come down and hang out. So it's, you know, they're in a good place.

Kevin Lundquist [02:39:45] Like Jen said. I can't possibly fathom having to have navigated the trans. With the trans transition with Nova around the church because it was so hard for the. For a gay son that we, you know, not one time in ever a second did we ever think that we weren't gonna support him. Yeah, not. That wasn't even. It wasn't even. I don't. I don't understand people that do that. I don't understand how people cannot just love their kids. You know, your kids don't always do what you want. They don't always turn out what you want want. But we, like Jen said we were super lucky. Our kids are amazing.

Kevin Lundquist [02:40:25] They're smart. And having to navigate that with Josh was hard. And then we got out of it. And then seven, eight years later, it was a lot easier with Nova because it was like, okay, I've kind of fallen into that category that you say a lot of your listeners say, why do people go from strong LDS to atheist? I have a theory for that, but I'm kind of in that boat.

John Dehlin [02:40:51] What's your theory?

Kevin Lundquist [02:40:52] So for me, I was converted, temple recommend, leadership callings, all this, and I just wasn't fundamental about having to be. I didn't believe that was the way God wanted us to operate. We went to church every week, but when I fell away, I took a microscope to the church on. I studied everything. I read the entire CS letter, I read the scriptures, I read the Book of Mormon, I read the Doctrine and Covenants to prove to myself. I read all of Mormon think. I did everything I could and drew the conclusion that this is not.

Kevin Lundquist [02:41:31] So. I took that same filter and I applied it to a belief in Jesus, I applied it to a belief in God. And I came to the conclusion that I can't support that there's anything out there. And if there is, I can't reconcile who he is with, you know, I mean, we lived in India and I had the chance to travel. I've been to 60 countries. I've seen everything Poverty in Africa, abject poverty in India. And I can't understand how a God would allow that and then allow some of the worst people in the world to thrive. And it's like, for me, it's not good enough to say, well, they'll get theirs in heaven.

Kevin Lundquist [02:42:06] That's not. And so I just kind of drew that conclusion. That works for me. I don't care what other people believe. I don't try to convince people I'm right or wrong. I think she still, on some level, at least believes something. And that's fine. That's not my point to change it. But I think that helped me a lot when. Because my main concern for Nova was

Jennifer Lundquist [02:42:30] her.

Kevin Lundquist [02:42:31] It wasn't. I'm worried about God. I'm worried about what the bishop is going to say. I'm worried about what the ward's going to say. I couldn't care less about any of that. I didn't. I didn't feel like that was a ramification. And I think. And I think to their credit, you know, we probably didn't say it enough, but our. Our. The way our parents have handled this transition from a gay kid, us leaving the church, us resigning from the church, which was. No, it was all an impact on them. And we tried to be sensitive to it. They've been absolute rock stars. And, you know, when we told them that Nova was trans, they don't understand it. And they'll admit they don't understand it, but they just don't question it.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:43:08] My dad gets tears in his eyes still when he talks about how much he loves his grandkids and that he hopes that they understand, you know, they can feel it. And it's harder because we don't live near them. Our kids have a different relationship than my brother's kids because they've been able to be with their grandparents growing up. And. So my dad's close, huh?

Kevin Lundquist [02:43:28] They're still close.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:43:28] They call my mom and my mom calls them, but I think my dad still worries that since they didn't grow up with him.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:35] But, yeah, I think that is so rare for your children to have grandparents that are still not just the church thing, but, like, all the different, like, expressions of what a child could be to have grandparents that are. Love first.

Kevin Lundquist [02:43:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:54] Love first.

Kevin Lundquist [02:43:55] No, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:56] I do think it's rarer, really.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:43:58] I think we're very fortunate. It's probably why we're like we are is because we have had stellar parents

Kevin Lundquist [02:44:03] that were still, to this day, we

Jennifer Lundquist [02:44:05] still do have

Kevin Lundquist [02:44:08] supportive. And, you know, my mother in Law likes to argue about the church and we debate about the church and about politics and stuff, but we do it in a fun way. She knows how I feel and I know how she feels and she's, you know, she's, she understands some of the flaws with the church, but she overall believes the church is true and that's her right. And my father in law doesn't say much and with my mom we just never talk about the church. And it's a good place with all three of them.

John Dehlin [02:44:34] So the moral of today's story is if you're a really, really good Mormon parent, your kids and grandkids will leave the church and be super happy.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:44:41] I know, I know, I know. I still feel bad about that for them. I hope when my parents see this, they don't get mad. I say this, but when I was visiting my mom one year, they took me out to where they're, they were all proud that they had done their headstones so that when they do pass, we don't have to worry about it. And I have a little sister that had died as a baby. So their plot is right by hers. And on the back of it it has mine and my brother's names and our children's names and then under that, families are forever.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:45:12] And like right after they had showed me that, I brought up how I had left the church. I mean like how I had signed the letter and on my mom is like, she doesn't cry over anything. I think probably one of the first times I've ever seen my mom cry because it kind of hit her that we were the apostates that we are. But you know, she got over that and you know, she's back to just, you know, you guys are living a good life, you're doing what you need to do to be good people. I figure, you know, and the way she says it, God's going to figure it out in the end.

Kevin Lundquist [02:45:44] Yeah, well, that's what I said that to her the other day because I feel bad for my mom because my mom is a card carrying member. She's all in. She works in the temple. And my sister passed away two years ago and so it's just me and my mom. My dad died and now my mom, now my sister. And so it's just me and my mom. And I try to do nice things. I can for my mom. I help her financial if she needs it. I talk to her all the time. I have great relationship. But I do feel like it's like everything else that my dad was really big on.

Kevin Lundquist [02:46:17] Like, I wish my dad would have lived long enough to see me accomplish some of the goals I had career wise. Like when I became CFO of a company, that was something that he always believed in me more than I believed in myself.

Kevin Lundquist [02:46:29] And that would have been really amazing, I think for him, because he would have, it would have been an I told you so. Other than that, it doesn't really matter. But I think with my mom I feel bad because it's like no matter what we accomplish in life, there's always a but. You know, like I called my mom and said, hey, I've been trying for this job, this company, and I got it and it's amazing, I love it. She's like, oh, that's great. But I think in the back of her mind there's always a but. It's like you're not a member and there's consequences for that.

Kevin Lundquist [02:46:57] And I think the way she reconciles it is to say, you know what, God's loving, he's compassionate, he'll figure it out. And I said to my mother in law the other day, I said, you know, the way I work is, is I'm not worried if there's a God, because if there is, I feel like we've lived good lives, we try to do the right thing. We've always done everything we can for our kids without enabling them. We've always taught them right from wrong. They're all career motivated. Like I said, our daughter's going to graduate from University of Michigan in May and she's got career aspirations.

Kevin Lundquist [02:47:29] They're kind people, they're compassionate. And so I'm not afraid if there is a God, then I'll say, here's the things I did, here's the way I live my life. And I think if there is a God, that's all the things that people say, he's going to understand how people could struggle with the disconnect to believe in Him.

Kevin Lundquist [02:47:50] That's the way I'm going to kind of say is I'm not afraid if there is a God because I feel like I could stand in front of him and say I did the best I could. And, and you know, that's if I'm going to be judged and cast down to hell for where my ass sat on a Sunday, then I don't want to be with that person anyways.

How Love and Family Meaning Have Evolved

Margi Dehlin [02:48:14] I have a question about how you would talk about how if the way you feel like you love and what love is has changed over the years or has it stayed the Same. Do you feel like you kind of always had. Had it and then the follow up question is what family means to you now?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:48:39] I feel like I may not have understood it as much like as when we first got married, as I have as we've grown. And you know, anybody who's in a monogamy relationship knows that you're going to have bumps and bruises and trials that you can overcome and everything.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:48:58] And so going through that, I love the fact that I can say that we've grown together. I mean, I look at, I was 20 years old and I look at 20 year olds now and they're children. And when I was 20, I've been like, I'm not, I'm an adult. But the life experience that we've had, I was a child and I literally grew up with this man. And we've overcome so much. And then even as a parent, that changes through time. You go from these little infants that can't do anything, and then you watch them grow into their own adulthood and be their own people.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:49:33] And just like I'm sure our parents had to do for us, we may not be doing what they had envisioned for us. You know, they expected us, I'm sure, to be on the top of their celestial cake as well, but just like I did. But they still love us anyway, regardless of where we've gone in life, what we've done.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:49:52] And, you know, and I don't want to say in any way, because there never was an anyway. I love my son anyway, even though he's gay. I love my daughter anyway, even though that was never a thing. The love is just there, you know, and it grows the more I get to know them as people because I can appreciate them now as adults and who they've grown into.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:50:13] And I think that's what I've learned, is that love is ever changing and gets stronger as time goes by. I don't know about you.

Kevin Lundquist [02:50:21] Well, I think for me, when we moved back to California, I wanted to do something constructive. And so I started volunteering at San Quentin Prison. And I got. I learned a lot about the parole process. And in California, if you're doing a life sentence for murder or whatever, you have to go before a three panel parole commission group. And it's hard to get out. And so I taught myself a lot about how to do that and how to work with inmates. And I've got some people that I've helped get out that served 40 years that like the people that watch our animals right now that stay in our house I helped him get out.

Kevin Lundquist [02:50:55] And I started working in the women's prisons and working with women that were trying to negotiate this alone. Because it's not lawyers that can help you. It's people who understand how the system. System works. And I saw women who had spent 25, 30 years incarcerated for murder, whose parents would visit them every week and never. They didn't. They didn't condone what they did. They didn't blame society. They didn't blame anything. They. They take accountability. You did this.

Kevin Lundquist [02:51:25] But they never turned their backs on their. And so that's always been something for me, is I don't have to love everything about my kids, although I think I do. You know, I love who they are, but I never, you know, and it's just like with her. It's like when she was still going to church and we got to a point early on where we couldn't talk about it. We would argue about it, because I'd be like, how do you not just see this? It's so stupid. And she'd be like, I don't want to talk about it. You're deceived. You're reading the wrong thing. And I just thought, okay, this can either ruin our marriage or it cannot.

Kevin Lundquist [02:51:58] And we just, you know, we had a lot of things that we loved about each other, common interests, stuff like that. And so we focused on that. But I don't think it's been any different for me. I think it's been, you know, it's looking at our parents. And our parents. My sister, like I said, had a lot of problems in her life. And my mom had every reason to turn. My mom and dad had every reason to turn their back on her because she did some pretty bad stuff and they never did.

Kevin Lundquist [02:52:23] And I don't think you should enable a kid. But, you know, I think the way that you, you know, the way for me, it's like, I believe this is our. This is it. We're done after this. There's nothing I could be wrong, but I live my life like that. I don't want to hope that there's some reconciliation after we die where I can, you know, reconcile with a family member, be. Get parents, siblings, kids.

Kevin Lundquist [02:52:53] You know, I don't want to hope that because I didn't do it in this life that I can do it in another life. So I think I. I view things a little bit differently, that you got one life, you know, who knows? You know, I. I was telling John I have people that I graduated with that they're like, in the last six months, there's been, like, five people from my graduating class that have died.

John Dehlin [02:53:11] From your high school graduate?

Kevin Lundquist [02:53:13] Yes, from my high school graduating class. From. For various reasons. And it's like, who knows if you're gonna be here tomorrow? I don't wanna live my life hoping that I could make up for it somewhere else.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:22] Right. Okay. And then I'm gonna just ask one last time the family question.

John Dehlin [02:53:26] What does family mean?

Margi Dehlin [02:53:27] What does family mean to you now? When you think of your family, when you think of those times you go to Hawaii? Is that what you said? Yearly?

Kevin Lundquist [02:53:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:37] Yeah. What does it mean to you now? Because I think that's kind of a main theme.

Kevin Lundquist [02:53:42] Yeah, It's. It's appreciating who. How we are as a family. We're very cohesive as a family. We get along really well. We all have a stupid sense of humor that we all understand, and we take jabs at each other, and our two older kids are kind of the less serious and our daughter's a little bit more serious. And it's just the dynamic that we just love. You know, we love everything individual about each of them, but collectively, as a family, we. We get along real well. We. And we've. We've purposely tried to nurture that. You have to actively work at it. It doesn't happen. It's.

Kevin Lundquist [02:54:19] You know, we could let things get in the way or, you know, and we didn't do that. And I think by, like, like I said earlier, I think if I had allowed, you know, if I'd have just told the mission president, you know what? Yeah, you're right. Just let him go.

Kevin Lundquist [02:54:37] How would that have. How would that have looked to my son, who's reaching out to me, saying, I need your help? And, you know, had I just said, no way, you know what? Just fall in church speak. The mission president has this. He's got revelation.

Kevin Lundquist [02:54:51] I think my son would have thought, okay, my dad doesn't have my back, and maybe he really doesn't support me as much as he does. And it's, you know, again, it's not enabling. I don't believe in enabling kids. I think you need to teach them and provide opportunities for them and stuff like that.

Kevin Lundquist [02:55:09] But also, I think the two, all three of our kids know that they're loved unconditionally, you know, and if they ever did something that we didn't agree with, that's fine. We don't have to agree with it, but they're unconditionally loved, you know, And I Think our parents have shown that despite everything we've thrown at them, they show that. There's no question into my mind that they're probably disappointed because of the way they. But that disappointment doesn't flow over into any actions the way they treat us. My mom. My mom is like. Like I said, she's hardcore, but I have no question that she loves us, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:55:50] So

Jennifer Lundquist [02:55:53] sounds about right. Yeah. It's that unconditional love that we've been given and that we give.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:59] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:00] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:56:00] And I feel like, you know, even the kids have it. You know, they'll probably argue with each other more than they would us, cuz that's kids. But.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:08] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:09] Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:56:10] But ultimately, family's got your back.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] All right.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:16] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:56:17] Well, Kevin and Jennifer Lundquist. It's, you know, family over family over church, family over religion, family over dogma, family over kind of everything, maybe.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:30] Is that okay?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:56:31] Yeah, I like it.

John Dehlin [02:56:32] That sound good.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:33] Margi.

John Dehlin [02:56:33] You like that?

Jennifer Lundquist [02:56:34] Margi, We.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:35] We honor your love.

John Dehlin [02:56:37] Yeah, thanks.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:38] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:39] And the journey of love that you've had to take.

John Dehlin [02:56:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:43] Yeah. Thank you.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:44] Thank you. Thank you. But before we close, can I say one thing?

John Dehlin [02:56:47] Yeah.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:48] So I brought you guys a gift.

John Dehlin [02:56:49] Oh, what? This is for on air or after?

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:52] For on air.

John Dehlin [02:56:53] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [02:56:53] All right. It was my first shelf. No, this is a first copy of the Articles of Faith. It's the first edition.

John Dehlin [02:57:00] Okay.

Kevin Lundquist [02:57:01] And do you know what the significance of that is? Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:03] No. James E. Talmadge.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:57:05] Right.

Kevin Lundquist [02:57:05] James E. Talmadge. They say he wrote this in the temple. And I read this a long time ago and I got to be able to read it now. But he basically, this is on the three degrees of glory. It's reasonable to believe in the absence of direct revelation by which. Okay, read this paragraph. Just read that paragraph. I have my contacts.

John Dehlin [02:57:33] I can see it. Yeah.

Jennifer Lundquist [02:57:35] By which almost absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired. That he, in accordance with God's plan of eternal. Sorry, I'm not wearing my glasses. Progression advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be established. Be enabled. Sorry. To advance, surely the intelligence of the higher rank shall not be stopped in their progress. And thus we may conclude that the degree and the grades will ever characterize the kingdom of our God. Eternity is progressive. Perfection is relative. And the essential feature of God's living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.

John Dehlin [02:58:23] Whoa, I know where you're going there.

Kevin Lundquist [02:58:25] What he's saying in here is that there's the ability, if you are assigned the telestial kingdom to bump up, to eventually make it to the celestial kingdom. The reason the first version, first edition is significant is because they took it out after the second edition.

Kevin Lundquist [02:58:43] And so this is a 1901 copy. It's the second printing of the first edition. And I thought I'd give it to you guys to have. I marked the page. But it's just interesting. I read that a long time ago and I thought when you're on your mission, at least for me, Talmadge was like the one author that you could read besides the standard works. You could read Jesus of Christ, you could read Articles of Faith.

Kevin Lundquist [02:59:08] And somebody told me about that and I used to collect old books, like church books, and somebody told me about it and I didn't believe it. So I bought. I found this book and I bought it and I read it and I thought it's another thing that they changed, you know, and maybe it would be nice if the church was true and Talmadge was right, that maybe in a billion years, if you. You didn't quite make it in this world, or three. Three billion, whatever.

John Dehlin [02:59:32] Or three years.

Kevin Lundquist [02:59:34] Well, let's be honest, if you make it to the terrestrial kingdom, I think this is probably what my mom believes, is that eventually, through enough penance and saying enough Hail Emma Smith, you can make it to the celestial kingdom. Eventually. So I have this book in my drawer and I thought you'd enjoy it.

John Dehlin [02:59:50] Thank you. I'll just share with you something fun I learned just this week I was to going. Going through some of the Tanner's old stuff and it's related to Talmage. Did you know that in the mid 20th century, James E. Talmage decided that we needed a version of the Doctrine and Covenants that didn't have, you know, all the irrelevant sections and the stuff that really wasn't useful or helpful. So Talmage put together a condensed version of the Doctrine and Covenants I needed that took out dozens of sections. Guess what section he removed?

Kevin Lundquist [03:00:23] 132.

John Dehlin [03:00:24] He removed D&C. 132, of course. And then there. And so he released it. And then the fundamentalists had a huge backlash. And you wouldn't think the church would care.

Kevin Lundquist [03:00:34] No.

John Dehlin [03:00:35] But they did. And so they stopped printing. But Talmads did an edited version of the Doctrine and Covenants. I didn't know.

Jennifer Lundquist [03:00:42] I didn't either. I would have loved that because

Kevin Lundquist [03:00:48] I was amazed that they. Because if you look at the next, the next printing is 1910 and the next edition. And they took it all out. They took everything out. Then they even actually said that there's no. The new wording is that you would think that, but there's no provision for that, that God would allow that. You're basically stuck.

John Dehlin [03:01:03] And of course, that's because in the mind of Mormon church leaders, if you don't have that threat of being stuck in the wrong kingdom based on what you do in this life, then you won't join the church and stay faithful.

Kevin Lundquist [03:01:17] You're giving people an out. It's like, yeah, well, I can wait a billion years. It's fine. I'll hang out with Hitler and the terrestrial kingdom and then eventually I'll get up there.

John Dehlin [03:01:26] So they had to fix that to keep people paying tithing.

Kevin Lundquist [03:01:29] Right. But if Talmadge was so inspired, you know how they said that he was

John Dehlin [03:01:34] like he was a prophesier and revelator, special witness of Christ. Right.

Kevin Lundquist [03:01:39] Which was. Right. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:01:41] Well, fun. Well, thanks again, Kevin and Jennifer Lundquist, for coming on Mormon Stories.

Kevin Lundquist [03:01:48] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [03:01:49] It's been so great for you to share your sacred family experiences with all of us.

Kevin Lundquist [03:01:55] Thank you for having us. It's really nice to meet you guys too.

John Dehlin [03:01:58] And Margi, thanks for being with us today.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:01] Yes, of course.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Kevin Lundquist [03:02:02] Great.

John Dehlin [03:02:03] Also just want to thank our donors that make all this possible. We literally couldn't do it without you. So if you're a monthly donor, thank you. If you're not and you value this type of content, we would love your support@mormonstories.org all you gotta do is go there, click on the donate button and become a monthly donor and we'll keep creating this content. Please subscribe to this channel, on YouTube, on Facebook, please like and comment. That all helps. I want to thank Brooklyn and Julia and Gerardo and Maven and Margi and everyone at the Open Stories foundation, including our board that make what we do possible.

John Dehlin [03:02:39] Thank our viewers and listeners and just want to remind everyone if you want to be a guest like this wonderful couple, like the Lundquist, if you want to be a guest on Mormon Stories, all you got to do is what they did. Click on the Apply to be a guest button on the website at MormonStories.org, fill out the application, record a quick three minute video.

John Dehlin [03:02:59] Margi, review it. She'll run it by me. And if it's a good fit, we can't accept all applicants, but if it is a good fit, we'd love to have you on. We're always looking for new, interesting stories. So. Yeah. And we always love your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com. anything else?

Margi Dehlin [03:03:18] I don't think so.

Jennifer Lundquist [03:03:19] All right.

John Dehlin [03:03:20] All right. Thanks again, guys. Thanks for joining us. And be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Family over church, religion, dogma every time. See ya.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.