Introduction and Episode Overview

Christopher Swallow [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners. To help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community, please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 22, 2018, and we have a very important interview to share with you today. This is not an interview that was necessarily planned, but it comes off the heels of the recent Joseph Bishop sort of controversy that's been sweeping Mormonism as of late. For those of you who are listening later or who haven't been paying attention this week, this week Mormon Leaks released an audio recording of a woman who recorded an interview with Joseph Bishop, who was the president of the Provo MTC from something like 1983 to 1986 or something to that. Yeah, and in the recording, he admits to sexually inappropriate behavior with several women, both before he was called as president of the mtc, but also during the time he was president of the mtc. And that story has kind of exploded, or at least it started to. And in the context of the Harvey Weinstein ERA and the MeToo movement and the Spotlight movie that came out last year about the Catholic Church and systematic pedophilia. It's really drawn people's interest to how institutions protect abusers at the expense of victims and cover up that abuse. So this is a story that we're going to be telling today. That is a big story, in my opinion, and it's a story that I've known about for at least a year or two, but it's one that we've waited to tell until the right moment, and I think now is the best time we could possibly tell the story. Today we are going to be interviewing Christopher Swallow, and Christopher is going to tell the story of how he became friends or close to a family member

Christopher Swallow [00:03:07] who,

John Dehlin [00:03:09] who engaged in in very disturbing sexual grooming slash abusive behaviors with young men at, at BYU in Provo sort of in the in the late 80s and early 1990s. It turns out that both Christopher and his brother and at least one other person that they knew all were groomed, slash abused by this man whose name was Laura Robison. And the reason why it becomes extra alarming and why it's related to the LDS Church is that to Christopher and his other friends and family's dismay, in 1995 they learned that this man who was sexually abusing young men had been called to serve as a mission president to the Mexico Leone Mission to serve as president from 1995 to 1998. And so Christopher and his brother, when they learned about this sexual groomer abuser, when they learned that he had been called as a mission president, they traveled to church headquarters, requested a meeting with Elder Earl C. Tingey, who was an LDS General Authority, to let the church know that sexual abuser had been called as a mission president. And to their dismay, the man nothing was done and the man was allowed to serve as a mission president, as I understand it, his full term. But that is the topic for today's conversation. Before we actually launch into the actual telling of Christopher's story, I'll just announce a few quick events that are upcoming for Mormon Stories podcast. We are so excited to have Tara Westover in Salt Lake City on March 29. We are going to be having a Q and A and a book signing with her the night of the 29th in Salt Lake City at the Unitarian Universalist Church at 7:00'. Clock. We want to invite all of our listeners to go to MormonStories.org events and check out and sign up for that event if you would like to attend. She is the author of the bestselling New York Times bestseller Educated. We had her on Mormon Stories just a little while ago. It's a riveting interview. It's a riveting book and if you want to meet Tara and get to know her and ask her questions, we hope you'll come to that event the very next day. March 30th is the March for the Children where Sam Young will be in town to lead us in a march from the Salt Lake City Library to the Church headquarters where all of the where all the petitions and letters of people who were abused in Bishop's interviews will be delivered. And we hope that we can get at least a thousand people at that march. We also have the amazing singer Angela Soaf who sings the the bumpers that are currently on Mormon Stories podcast. She is coming to Salt Lake City May 17 for a live performance. We would love to have you join us there. Again, you can go to mormonstories.org events to sign up for that event and then we have several workshops and retreats that are being planned. These are faith crisis workshops and retreats that we hold to support people in their faith transition, to save marriages, to save lives, to improve mental health. The next one that we have scheduled is June 8th through 10th in Salt Lake City. We also have Houston July 13th through 15th and then we have Idaho Falls August 10th through 11th. You need to sign up for those on the MormonStories.org website under MormonStories.org events. And of course we have the Bahamas cruise October 24th through 28th. We hope that you will consider joining us for any of those if you or anyone you know need support in their faith crisis. These are Incredible events. Rated 4.9 out of 5. Almost every time feedback is really high and people tell us that they are life transforming. We want to thank everyone who supports us through the Open Stories Foundation. Please like us on Facebook the Mormon Stories Podcast page. Please give Mormon Stories Podcast a positive or favorable review. Please donate to Mormon stories mormonstories.org if you want to see more of these programs kept alive. 10, 20, 50, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. These recurring donations are what allows us to fulfill the mission of the Open Stories foundation and to support others. We're super excited to have just released our sexual harassment policy. Late last year we started working with an independent consultant to create a sexual harassment policy and to make it public. We're very excited to announce that that has now been released in. You can go to MormonStories.org or OpenStoriesFoundation.org and you can read our sexual harassment policy. We're very proud to have created that and to have made it public. And we'll be releasing our financial statements soon for 2017 because we believe in financial transparency. So thanks to everyone who supports us and makes this all possible. And thanks also to everyone who's joining us right now on Facebook Live. We already have over 100 people joining us and we just want to encourage everyone to please share right now this event live on your Facebook timelines because this is going to be an important conversation. This is going to be important story. It's going to show how the Church covers up and protects abusers at the expense of the abused. Just like happened in the Joseph Bishop case. And the more people that hear about this and the more people that know about this, the better. So please like us and and please share right now this event if you're willing. And we want to encourage everyone who's listening to please to please give us comments and questions because that makes these interviews more interesting and more interactive. So, without any further ado, Christopher Swallow, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Christopher Swallow [00:09:41] Wow. Thank you so much. I can't believe. Can't believe we're sitting here talking like this.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] Yeah, well, it's great to have you, but this is also a very sobering topic, so let's dive in. Why don't you tell us just a little bit about your kind of early childhood years and to the extent to which the church was an important part of your life.

Christopher Swallow [00:10:03] Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, listening to you, like, rehearse, you know, and just kind of summarize that whole thing, this has been something I've, you know, it's been in my life for, you know, 20 some odd years and getting close to it, and it's just surreal to listen to you, you know, rattle off, rehearse it back. And it's, it is. It's kind of a big deal, actually. But anyway, thanks for that.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Was. What was it was in any way you listening to the Joseph Bishop interview, was that triggering for you? Is it impactful for you? Did it take you back in a way?

Christopher Swallow [00:10:50] Absolutely, yeah. Very, very much. I found out about that immediately. I didn't even bother reading any, like, the Reddit, the threads of the post. I went and found the audio and I'm like, if there's anything here, it's in the audio. That's where it's at. I listened to all 2 hours, 45 minutes of it. And when, after I listened to that, I knew we had to do this. It was absolutely time. You and I have, we talked about this, I think maybe almost easily two years ago. And after listening to that, it was. It was unbelievable. And when her, what's the word? How brave she was to do what she did this. Absolutely. There's no more excuse. It's time to come forward with and talk about these things. And I've never been embarrassed on their problem. There may be people out there. Over the last years, I've shared this story with some people, not very many at all, but some. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone listens to this and is like, I remember when Chris told me about that way back, you know, it's crazy, but yeah, it was absolutely impactful.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] And I just want to make sure listeners know that until the church, the Mormon Church is willing to change its policies around interviewing people, children, youth, adults, about sexually explicit topics behind closed doors without, you know, multiple people in the room, without safer policies, until they stop grooming young men and women, young boys and girls, for these types of abuses that we're going to be talking about. We at Mormon Stories are going to be willing to cover as many of these abuse stories as we can. So if you. I'll just make a shout out now. If any of our listeners know of or were involved in some sort of sexual abuse or other type of abuse event related to the Mormon Church and you reported it to the Mormon Church, to a bishop or a mission president or stake president, and, and it was ignored or covered up and abusers were protected at the expense of the abused. I would definitely love you to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we will help you tell your story if it's a story that we're able to help you tell. So, Christopher, tell us about what the church meant to you as a child.

Christopher's Childhood and Faith in the Church

Christopher Swallow [00:13:46] It meant everything. It truly did. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, born and raised in California. I loved my childhood. I loved my youth. I loved growing up Mormon. I loved being Mormon. In my high school, while I was going to school, there were, I think I was one of 15 to 20 Mormon kids out of couple thousand easily. And it was just awesome. It was never a big deal to anyone else that I was Mormon and it was never a big deal to me that anyone else wasn't Mormon, you know, and it was just, and the church was just different and it was just, it was

John Dehlin [00:14:40] good.

Christopher Swallow [00:14:41] Like I said, I loved it. I, I have excellent memories. I think that's the hardest thing has been over the years. Well, after this happened, you know, you're sitting in church and people will say things about the brother and the leaders, I would just sit. I've always just sat whenever I've heard that. And you just sit quietly in the background. And I'm like, you don't know what I know.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Well, let's keep with your story. So you had a good LDS upbringing and then served a mission, I'm assuming?

Christopher Swallow [00:15:15] Yep, sure did. I served a mission, went to the Canada Toronto mission and. Okay. And real quick, let me. Yeah, thanks for keeping me on track too. So I want to real quick, bring before I get to the BYU thing, bring in my family history because the people involved in this story, I want to paint the picture and the relationship and everything like that. So on my mom's, my mom is from, she was born in England and lived her whole life or her youth in Belgium. So she's European. And she joined the church when she was 17. Actually she joined when she was 18. She met the missionaries at 17 her mom and dad wouldn't let her get baptized until she was 18. And after she got baptized, within the same year, she served a mission to the Paris, France mission. Her mission president was Rulin Hinckley, if anyone people might know. But anyway, and then after her mission, she came straight away to the United States, went, lived in Salt Lake, went to the University of Utah, where she met my dad. And that's kind of. And on my dad's side, my dad's family. The church enters my dad's side of the family back in the 1870s, back to my great grandfather who joined the church and in late 1870 emigrated to the United States and moved to the Fillmore, Utah region. And then they did cattle, cattle and sheep ranches in the Great Basin region right on the Utah Nevada border in, like, Baker, you know, that area. It's in the middle of nowhere. And this is where my grandfather, my great grandfather and this, my cousin, Lowell Robinson, this story happened, began all right there in this area. And so let's see here. But anyways, my dad, after the ranches were sold in the 60s or something like that, actually before my dad served a mission to England, and it was the British South Mission, I believe. And his mission president was Marion D. Hanks. He came back, met my mom, you know, at University of Utah, and they were married and trying to think where to go from there. So, see, growing. Growing up in the Bay Area, for me, we would travel. They settled my grandma and grandpa, when they were still alive, they settled in Reno, Nevada. And so when I was young, in my teen, you know, early, you know, teens years, we would go to Reno, Nevada, all the time to their house, and we would see my grandma and grandpa, but we'd always go to my Uncle Leonard and Aunt Lavon's house. My Uncle Leonard and Aunt Lavon, they were Lowell Robinson's mom and dad. And I mentioned them because they're long gone. They both passed away. But the reason I bring them into this story is because we would go. I mean, these were the magical years of growing up in the church. And it was always amazing going to Grandma and grandpa's and uncle. And we would listen, literally listen to them, tell stories. And I'm here. This might be a good time for me to kind of. My Uncle Leonard, I'm just going to read, if that's okay, just a little paragraph right from his obituary that they ran when he. After he died. But Leonard was a fairly prominent leader in the church, having served as bishop, stake president, member of the general priesthood, missionary Committee of the Church, a mission president to the Northeast British mission from 67 to 70, and as a regional representative of the 12. So my uncle Leonard, he was. We would listen to him tell stories about traveling and going, you know, camping and things with Ann Eldon Tanner and Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson and Marion G. Romney. And we listen to these stories and I remember just going, oh, my God. You know, as a kid in the church that you love the church, and you're like, these are my heroes. These are my heroes. And I loved being around them and hearing them, and it was absolutely impactful. It was part of the reason why I loved that side of the family and loved my youth. But that part was magical. That's the most connected I ever felt to church leaders. And I. You know. But anyway, yeah, so you have this.

Family Connections to Church Leadership

John Dehlin [00:20:22] You have this uncle who was very well connected with the top church leaders, and he was sort of this inspiration for you, and he knew Kimball and Hanks and Romney and all of these general authorities. And so it's this family of influence, of power, of money and of influence. Right.

Christopher Swallow [00:20:44] Less money for.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Okay, power and influence. Not money. Power and influence.

Christopher Swallow [00:20:50] Well, but Bunny is definitely part of it. But for me at that time, it was absolutely just the influence and the church and. Yeah, but you're exactly right. And I was. While you were saying that when he passed away, and I think it was whatever. It was 90, whatever he were at his funeral. And I remember distinctly when Thomas S. Monson just pulled up and showed up to the funeral. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. Like, are you. It was once. Surreal. I had never, in my. I think that might have been one of the first times in my life that I had ever, with my eyes, like, just seen an apostle, let alone Thomas S. Monson. And so he showed up to his funeral. That's how close they were with these men. So very close. And the reason why this is really important is because Lowell is his son. And so.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Right, right. You're abuser. You're abuser.

Christopher Swallow [00:21:54] Right, absolutely. And so. And so my cousin Lowell, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, let's take it, you know, to me, to going back when I went to byu, I. The first. Right. When I got to byu, one of the first things I did was I called my cousin Lowell because we had never been like we were with. We were never too. We were out in the middle. We were the only family in California. And if we had to travel great distances to see these guys, and. And it wasn't that often, really. And So I called him as soon as I got to byu, and I'm like, hey, I'm here, and I want to stay close to you guys and would love to see you. And again, I really. He was a business leader, super successful in the church, and at the time, he was either bishop or stake president at that time. And so I reached out to him,

Christopher Swallow [00:22:47] and

Christopher Swallow [00:22:51] that's kind of how where this, I guess, really starts. It was at that time, shortly after I had reached out to him, and this was, again, chronologically, 88. 88 was my freshman year at BYU and called him, like I said, immediately, and I would say, mid semester. At some point, I got a call from him and. And he said, hey, Chris was just wondering if you wanted to go and do something this weekend. He said, kath is out of town. Sorry. Yeah, my wife was out of town or something like that. And I was gonna go up to the cabin in Midway and do some winterizing or something like that and get the house ready for winter and wondering if you wanted to tag along with me and come up. And I'm just like, yeah, I was super excited, and it was a huge, beautiful house, and I was getting away from school, and it was awesome, and I was so excited. So he came and picked me up, and the drive up the canyon was just. We talked and had fun, and we got to the house and. And, you know, there isn't really much, actually, that stands out this far. You know, now that so much time has elapsed, other than it being just a very, you know, great experience and just having fun, only one thing kind of stands out and always had. And that was when it came. When it came time for bed. He was like, well, I was like, okay, so, you know, it's a huge house. You know, it's tons of bedrooms, and I'm just like, where do you. Which room do you want me to take? And he was like, well, I was thinking we would, you know, we'd just both sleep in the master. And I'm just like, okay, that's not weird, but whatever, that's cool, I guess. And so, you know, we started making our way into the master and getting ready. And I distinctly remember he said, do you shower? He asked me if I shower before I go to bed or after. And I just remember thinking to myself, oh. I said, normally I'm, you know, I'm a morning guy, but. But the way he said it was truly. I mean, it was almost like he was like, insisting, you know, that I shower before bed. And I'm Just. And so I felt compelled, I guess. And so that's. I'm like, okay, if you want me to shower now, then I'll shower now, whatever. And so I go and shower, get ready, whatever, and. And there was distinctly. I'm like, I don't remember going in with a towel, but I mean, why would anyone go into a shower and not have a towel ready for them? And I remember being in the shower and just out of the blue door opens and in walks Lol and he has a towel. And he was just kind of like, oh, I wasn't sure if you had a towel, so I thought I'd bring one. And I'm just like, whoa. And I'm just going, little privacy here. And it was just weird, but still kind of no big deal. I distinctly remember it, you know, feeling weird. But like I said it as soon as it was done, it was done for me. And that's. It went to bed. And for me largely that's, that's pretty much that was that night. It's again, for me it was minus those two events, largely uneventful. And I never really thought about it much, if at all again until much, much later. And we'll get to that. But that was the first night at the cabin, you know, those two things. And then there was a second thing, and that's. Any questions about that too, by the way? I don't know.

First Encounters with Lowell Robison

John Dehlin [00:27:34] Nope, just keep, keep rolling the story.

Christopher Swallow [00:27:38] Next thing that semester again, this is, this might have happened. I want to say it was still my freshman year. It might have been, you know, in the new semester, maybe at the beginning of, of 89, got another call from Lowell and he invited me down to his business in South Provo. He had a very successful businessman on top of his church callings. And I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, I am so excited. I get to go and take a tour of his business. And. And I was just so excited again. And so I go down one afternoon and walk into his office and he gives me a tour, takes me around and shows me, introduces me to people, whatever. And there's a steel yard, if I recall the company that he owned. They made steel safes or whatever. And so big steelyard out back and we're walking around a steelyard and I don't know why a steelyard is so exciting to a, you know, an 18 year old or something like that, but maybe I was just excited to get away from school and you're just like, oh, that's so cool. But as we're Walking out back in the steelyard, we, you know, kind of make our way back to this. If you could imagine the creepiest, darkest, not darkest maybe, but just creepiest furthest corner of a steel yard with an old beat up trailer just sitting there in the corner completely. It just looked I distinctly. Again, it was another thing. I'm like, okay, where are we going? And as we're walking over to this trailer and he's like, hey, I have. There's something that I want to show you. And here, let's go in the trailer. And I'm just like, okay, cool. So we get in this little trailer out in this, you know, this far corner of the yard and. And he says to me, I think about starting a business and I wanted to, you know, run, you know, get your ideas and run a couple things by you. And I would. I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, he wants my, he wants my advice or he wants to run something by me. And I was just thinking again, like, going back to byu, like, yeah, I was getting business advice from a businessman while you guys are doing homework. And that's kind of what I was thinking. And I was just like, yeah, what's the business? And he's like, it's. He said, it's a sheepskin importing business. And I'm like, huh, okay, that's a little bit weird, but cool. Like, I don't know anything about that, but cool. And he said, he said, yep, I'm thinking about importing these sheepskins and from New Zealand or something like that. I think, if I recall right, whatever the story was. And he, and he had this stack of like, I don't know what you call them, sheepskins, pelts, samples, you know, just little, maybe 18 or 24 by whatever, and just a little pile of them that must have been a dozen or maybe two dozen on there. And he's like, and part of what I want to do, or I need to do is I want you to lay down on these and tell me which ones are the softest. I just remember thinking to myself, like, huh, okay, that's not weird either, but sure, I'll do that. And he's like, yeah, but you know, the couch or whatever it is, pulls into a bed. And he had me kind of lay down in the bed. And I'm like, okay, you know. And he's like, no, actually, he said, I need you to take your pants off or take your pants down. And I'm just like, like, down, down. And he's like, yeah, and I'm just going, hmm, okay. So again, total trust. Total trust in every way in this man. And even then, even though I remember thinking it was weird, never really questioned or doubted or thought anything malicious or whatever, but I remember thinking, all right, you want me to lay down naked on a sheepskin? We'll do it. So, you know, drop my pants and lay down on the little couch thing. And, you know, I kind of arched up, and he slides a sheepskin underneath me. And he's like, how does that one feel? And I'm like, It feels soft. He's like, okay, pull arcs. He pulls one out and puts one in. And how about that one? And I'm just like, okay. Like, what's happening here? Like, okay, that one's soft, too. Are you sure it's soft? I mean, do you want. You know. And he would say these things, you know, do you need to, you know, move around a little bit or something? And I'm like, yeah, that's. It's soft. It's soft. And we did this through the whole stack. And when it was done, I was just like, all right, so is this plan good? We're good. And, you know, that's it. I don't. There wasn't any touching that I recall. There was the air contact. Not even, you know, with his hand, you know, when he was taking them or pulling them in. But that happened. Pants to the ground and, you know, butt up in the air and laying on sheepskins and checking out how soft they are. So that was that.

Grooming and Boundary Violations Begin

John Dehlin [00:34:13] Honestly, Jeremy Young, who's a friend of. Mutual friend of ours, just asked us to maybe mention, according to his memory of you telling the story, that Lowell, on that first night, Lowell insisted that you sleep in the same bed as him. Did Jeremy get that right?

Christopher Swallow [00:34:31] Oh, thanks. Thanks, Jeremy. I. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Yeah, he did. Again, an important little fact. He did. Absolutely. He was essentially insistent when I asked where we were going to sleep, if I should grab another room. He said, no, I thought we'd both sleep in here. I showered, the whole thing. Came in when he walked in, drops a towel, and kind of walks out. And I'm like, like. And then after that, went to bed. Slept in the same bed. Same bed. In the master. In the master. In that room. In a. I don't know how big the house is. 4,000 square foot house with five, six bedrooms, you know, and we slept in the same bed together.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] And there were other. Yeah, there were other bedrooms in the house you could have slept in.

Christopher Swallow [00:35:22] Absolutely many. Several of them. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Okay, thanks. Just wanted to make sure you got that.

Christopher Swallow [00:35:28] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:35:29] Shout out to Jeremy.

Christopher Swallow [00:35:31] Awesome. Yeah, so I didn't, I don't think I thought twice about any of those events, any of them until. 90, 90, 96, 94. I gotta look at to make my notes. 90, 90, 95. When my brother came over, never.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Okay, so you never went back to. You never went back? You never, he never invited you back?

Christopher Swallow [00:36:12] Nope, nope. I went on my mission. I finished up my freshman year, went on my mission after my mission, got married, went back to byu. But. And there were, well, there were other, any other interactions with him came. They were limited and came much later for this time period. Nothing of relevance, you know, besides what I just shared for me.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Okay, okay, okay. So I was just making sure. So then you're saying and something happened. So what happened to bring the story back to your life?

Christopher Swallow [00:36:50] So I go on my mission, I come, I come home, get married and I'm back at byu, my, you know, continuing my studies after audition, married at this time. And that's kind of how I run into my buddy Jeremy there, who chimed in. And so while we're at byu, one day my brother, he comes over and he said to me, he says, chris, did you hear? And I'm like, did I hear what? And he said, Lowell was just called to be a mission president. And I said, that's awesome. I'm like another mission president that we know in the family and that we're close to. And I'm like, you know, I thought that's, that's great news. And he was just almost panicking and he said, no, he said, Chris, this can't happen. And I'm just like, what do you mean this can't happen? And he said, Lowell cannot be mission president. And I'm like, why on earth can Lowell not be mission president who he's perfect to be mission president? And he said something happened between with him and me and I'm just like, what do you mean something happened? And he truly. John, I. The panic, like I said, this is what's surreal about this whole thing is for me, I like I said my experiences were very much like, you know, they were what they were and for me they were essential non events. And I never really thought twice about them. But the panic that I saw in my brother, he was petrified, terrified of telling me this, something, whatever. He came to tell me and he said, he said he just basically kind of started. I almost had to drag it out of him and, and he said he said, chris Lowell, his freshman year and before his mission, he said, lowell had me over to his house in Midway. Do you know about the house in Midway? And I said, yeah, I know about the house in Midway. I've been there. He said, well, something happened there. And I'm just like, what happened there? So he begins telling me this story again that sounded. Began kind of sounding, you know, close to mine. And he was again telling me about how he slept in the same bed. But even before that, he said he was literally painting, talking about the experience. Very, very close to what I was, you know, sharing with, how I was sharing mine with you. But because he distinctly was sharing, he told me that Lowell insisted that they sleep in the same bed and shower together, or not shower together, but bathe together. This is where things get to a different level. And he said, and this is where. I hope you don't mind if I just pause and stop because going to say some things. This is where things get super impactful and this is where it changes. And I want. There's no question that there are family. I've not told anyone in my family anywhere that I'm doing this podcast. And so this might come as a surprise, and I hope it doesn't. And I want any family members to know that I genuinely love and care for all of them. And, and this is not meant to embarrass any of them that have had experiences, whether positive or negative, with this person. There's nothing that they have to be ashamed about. And so I just want to say that straight up, because for some reason I'm kind of feeling the impact here because this is. This is embarrassing, you know what I'm saying? It was one thing for my brother to come over and tell me about this, but for the world to know. Kind of like the girl on the auto tape, there was some blatantly real audio when I was listening to that tape and when I was sitting there listening to how raw, how upfront and just direct. And. And my brother said that Lowell was insistent that he get into that they take a bath together. And I don't mean. And I remember telling my brother, like, okay, you got into the bath and we're not. And again, it's like a hot tub. We're talking like a, you know, it's a 4,000 square foot, very nicely pointed home, beautiful master bath. And that was another thing too, that I needed. The glass in the bathroom, the shower, you know, sheer. It's just a big, beautiful. And a master bath like you would imagine a Jacuzzi tub, whatever. And I said, so you got into the tub with him, you know, with. With your swim trunks or shorts on. He's like, no, we're naked. Huh? Okay. But that wasn't even. That wasn't even the terrifying thing he said. And Chris, he said, after we went to bed, he said as. After maybe half hour, 45 minutes from after they laid down in the bed together, he said, and he was painting. He was literally showing me with his hands and mannerisms. And he said I could feel. As I was laying on my side of the bed, eventually, I could feel his hand slipping slowly, sliding between the sheets, coming towards him. He said he could hear it. He could feel it get closer to his middle region in a crotch area. And he said that he would feel it get so close, and he was just petrified and terrified. And then when it was so close that he just. He said he would just kind of grumble or move or, you know, and just shift positions. And he would. And he said, I would feel the hand move away and pull back, and I would sit there terrified. I mean, John, he was terrified and petrified, telling me these things. And he said how after another half hour, 45 minutes would pass, and he would just sit there and wonder and wait, what's going to happen next? And sure enough, you know, he would feel the hand come over and towards him, and he would move and shift, and it would. And Lowell would, you know, pull his hand back. And he said this went on all night, all night long. And I'm just like, okay, that's weird. And then he says, actually. And then it was, you know, right around there, as he's telling me these things, I said. I said, greg, it's kind of funny because I've never said a word to you or anyone. I don't even know if mom and dad know. But Lowell had me up to the house my freshman year, went to the cabin. He insisted that I sleep in the same bed. And I told him, you know, the same things that I told you. I'm like, there was no hot tub scene, but this doesn't seem very. This can't be a coincidence, I don't think. And he said, chris, do you. Do you know anything about sheepskins? And I'm just like, excuse me, Sheepskins? What do you know about sheepskins? And so I sit there, and John, he tells me the same identical story, same thing. Do you know about the business, the sheepskin importing business? I couldn't believe it. I literally couldn't Believe it. I'm sitting there. And we began just talking about these things. My wife was right there, and she was probably just, like, going, for real. This is happening. We sat there talking about these things, wondering, like, what is this? Like, is this a thing? Is this big? And all of a sudden, I began to understand and realized that. I think you might be right, Greg. I think this is kind of problematic. And I think maybe Lowell might. He probably shouldn't be mission president, you know, being called over 180, 200 young men. If this is a thing, what do we do? And we sat there, you know, trying to debate what. What to do. Well, I think we should call mom and dad. All right, that's a good start. Let's call mom and dad. We call mom and dad. We tell them this whole story. My mom wanted to get on a plane with a gun and kill. Kill someone. Mama Dragon came out. There was no hesitation. There was. We tell the story. We didn't even finish it. And Mama Dragon was. She was ready to. Yeah, it was like that. My dad was like, I think you leave it alone. So we hung up the phone with them. And I thought to myself, okay, so the answer is somewhere between murder and do nothing, you know? And so I'm just like, oh, what do we do? And I said to my brother, I'm like, my bishop. I asked my brother if he was close to his bishop at that time, and he said, you know, it was iffy. He had just got home from a mission. He was in a singles ward. And, you know, it's not a real. Not a real connection. I think at the time, I was like, the executive secretary to the bishop, to my bishop and our ward at that time. And I said, I love our bishop. He's awesome. You trust me to let me talk to him. He'll know what to do. He'll totally know what to do. Right? What do we do when these things happen? We go to our bishop, the men we trust. And so I go to my bishop and I tell him the story. And after he. I just can't remember. It's like, what's your reaction? And he just sat there and he's like, the end of the story. He just said, hmm, I don't know what to do, Chris. And I'm like, okay. He said, do you mind if I go to the Stake Presidency and rehearse, tell him this story and get some direction from him? And I remember thinking, you really, like. You think that we should do that? He's like, I think so. I Don't know what else to do. All right, if that's what you think, then you can do that. Gave him permission to do that. And again, my brother came over. This is a Saturday, you know, on a weekend that he came over. And my conversation with my bishop was the very next day on Sunday and where I told him about this. And at the end of our, you know, my interview with my bishop, he said, I'll get back to you. I think it was. It was definitely. It was. If it wasn't the next day, it was. It was Tuesday. But I have a feeling, if memory serves, it was the very next evening I got a call from my bishop, who I just remembered his name, I think. And he says, chris. I ran it by the stake president and also the area authority. So I don't know the name of whoever that was at the time. I don't remember that what he said. But he said, he goes, you have. He said, can you have an appointment to see Earl C. Tingey of the 70 in church headquarters on this date at this time? Can you make it? And I kind of like, you know, seeing Tom Monson at my grandpa at Uncle Leonard's funeral. It's like really like, I'd never been to church headquarters. I didn't even know you could go to church headquarters to see these men. They were like, you know, demigods and, you know, and was never allowed and didn't. Or not really not allowed, but just, you know, it's like, I don't need to go to church headquarters. Are you kidding me? And it was just surreal. Like, really? Chert, Burton Dinghy. Sure, we'll go to church headquarters. We'll talk to President Dinghy. So me, my brother and my wife at the time, we, on the day of the appointment, we make our way, drive down to church headquarters and right up to President Tinney's office. And for an hour we sat and essentially rehearsed these things to him and told him what had happened and why we thought that they should give some serious consideration to. You know, we said, you just called this man as a mission president, and this isn't really a good sign of behavior. He sat there generally the whole hour that we were there, asked a few questions here and there was generally, you know, let us listen to us. Had a legal pad wrote down, you know, would write down notes, see him writing on his legal pad. I had no idea he was an attorney at the. That time. And this is relevant too, right? The whole attorney thing.

Abuse Disclosed and Family Impact

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Totally, totally right.

Christopher Swallow [00:52:22] And so we finished up our Interview. And the last thing he says to us is, he says, thanks for coming in. We'll get back to you. We'll get back to you. And I thought, okay, we did it. This is. We did what we had to do. And that was 1995, John. And so I'm still waiting for Tingy to get back to me. You know, that was it. Not a word since. And in the months that followed, again, I remember. I distinctly remember we watched so close the church news and what was happening. Like, is he going, is this happening? Like, what's going to happen? And we just sat and watched and just threw like everyone else as he went out and served as a mission president. And the whole time came back and we just. It was just one of those things that just like, okay, I guess they didn't feel the same as we did. That's weird. So, like I said, that was the year of 95. And from there, essentially, I would share that experience, you know, some few times with people, but essentially that from that moment. And now you can Fast forward to 2006. 2000. I want to make sure I have my timeline right here.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] Yep, it's 2006.

Christopher Swallow [00:54:15] 2006. Fast forward to 2006, you know, and by this time, you know, life is. I have kids, divorced, and life has changed a lot for me. And back in Utah, by the way, we were in the same. We were in. We lived in Sammamish in Washington. When you were there. It was before you started the whole Mormon stories thing, I'm pretty sure.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] Cool. Yeah, we left Sammamish in 2004.

Christopher Swallow [00:54:50] You. Yeah, I remembered your name. Your name was definitely familiar when I started to. I'm sure, anyway. But yeah, anyway, 2006, after moving from Washington to back to Utah, and after the divorce in 2005, for a short time, I'm living with my. In my youngest brother's house. He's married, kids at the time. And so I'm just again, temporary living in the basement and fresh back in Utah. And one afternoon my brother's wife comes over, or she. She comes home. I guess she'd gone visiting, teaching or something like that. And we're. And she came down and she was talking. She's like, hey, Chris, I just ran into. I just met some of your relatives. And I'm just like, what? Like, that's who. And she mentioned their name. And I'm like, we have relatives. I didn't know we had any relatives with that name or that lived here. And she told us the relation, and it Was close again on the Robison side of the family. And she literally said to me, she said, so I mentioned we're swallows. I mentioned to them that we're swallows and the whole. And she. And because they mentioned that they're Robisons. And so my brother's wife said, oh, we're swallows because there's a huge Swallow Robinson connection. It goes back to the ranches and you know, all that stuff. And that's where it started. And apparent Kim said to me, she said, I think you might want to go talk to them. Because when I mentioned that we were related to Lullaby or that I brought it, she said, she brought up lol. She said it went cold. Like cold, cold, cold. And you might want to go talk to them. I'm not really sure, but might want to go meet them and chow them. And I'm like, sure, okay, that sounds good. And right away like that same afternoon I went over and knocked on the door and I'm just like, hey, we're family, we're relatives. And we sat there and we talked and met and everything and got the connection. And then I said I kind of was prompting because again, I don't recall any forthcoming conversation that I was interested and curious about. And I just kind of said, I'm like, so my sister in law was, you know, did anything wondering or. And I'm kind of wondering like is what's your relationship? I was kind of exploring his relationship with Lowell and he says to me and I saw that same panic come just, just completely come over him that I saw my brother. And he says to me, he says to me, chris, I hate that man. And by the end, like I said, this is a podcast going out to the world. There's no reason for me to make this stuff up or embellish this, this is. But I hate that man. And I'm like, I might know why. Tell me why you hate him. He said, he has ruined my life. Ruined. He said, he is my relationship with my wife, my sex life. And he has ruined. And I hate him. And it was surreal. I couldn't believe it. And he. And I put out a little bit and I said, you might not be alone. I said, I have a feeling we might have some common ground. Tell me if I'm wrong. So I threw out a couple. I threw out the, the home and I threw out the sheepskins. And any guess on whether or not he knew about the sheepskins? Anyone want to take a poll? Should we take an audience poll? Let's, let's. Start Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Yeah, it's not. It's not funny.

Christopher Swallow [00:59:24] Yeah, not at all. Not even at all. And he was. He was livid, absolutely livid. He said, chris, I have never said a word of this to anyone in my life except my wife. I have lived with this. I don't even recall. I don't think he had told his own mother. And like I said, it was a very. That connection was on the Robison side of the family, very close connection. And he said, I this. And I told him everything. I told him that we went to church headquarters. I said, we went to church headquarters. We told Timmy this In, you know, 95, when he was called, we told him, and we thought we were the only two. And now 2006, there's you. And he was furious. And he said, something's happening and I'm doing something about it. I am not sitting here quiet. He was. He was just furious. He somehow immediately almost gets an appointment on his own. I don't know how he did it. I just kind of said, if you need, you know, to talk to us or reference or to, you know, if you go. He was adamant about going to church headquarters. And I said, well, we've been there. If you want us to go with you, I'll go. Be happy to go, corroborate, tell, you know, my side of the story, everything. He said, no, I'll let you know. He didn't. We never went with him. But he made his way down there and got an appointment with one, said Merrill J. Bateman, who I also, at that time knew because I. He was president of BYU while I was there. I had actually been President Bateman's TA for President Bateman. And he was in the 70. He was in the presidency of the 70 at that time. And he gets an appointment with Bateman. And apparently, again, these are the. From here, it's the feedback that I have from this individual and from the family in general becomes very limited even to this day, very siloed and minute. But about all I know is that after he went and met with President Bateman, I think it was the very next week or the week after that, there was an. Oh, let me this too, at the time. So he had already served as mission president. He was already. He'd already been bishop, already been stake president, then mission president, back from his mission. And again, he was either in the stake presidency or president again, one of those two at that time in 2006 when this happened. And apparently there was an impromptu stake conference called in the Sharon East Stake of Provost Charon East Stake I'm pretty sure is what it was called. Impromptu state conference called by Bateman and whoever else was there releasing the stake presidency. At the very least releasing Lowell and reorganizing the stake. And that's all I know, John. Even to this day, that's all I know I had. I haven't heard anything more than that. Anything more than that. It's, it's. I remember think when that happened, I remember thinking, well, he was released. I wonder if anyone. I wonder if it almost like it was an honorable release. There wasn't didn't seem to be any church discipline or I don't like again the woman in the audio like so many questions like what did they do? What happened? Just things like that and that's really about. About their. I don't know what more to say.

Reporting to Church Leaders and Their Response

John Dehlin [01:03:50] No, that's. Yeah, that's. Well, I just want to say there's so many people who are tuned in. We. We've reached up to 300 people joining us and I, I just want to say that there are a lot of people basically sending you love and support. Thank you. Tatiana writes, these are clearly the actions of a predatory abuser.

Christopher Swallow [01:04:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Patty writes, I'm so sorry for what this fine man you, Chris Walla, had to endure. Tatiana writes, tragic.

Christopher Swallow [01:04:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] Ken writes, you have amazing courage. Christopher Martine writes that she's very happy that the general authorities involved are still living because we can't hold Carlos A.C. responsible.

Christopher Swallow [01:04:32] Right. He's passed away.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] But we have I guess Martin's saying that Oltini might still be alive. Is that true?

Christopher Swallow [01:04:39] He absolutely is alive. He absolutely is alive.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] And so is Meryl Bateman.

Christopher Swallow [01:04:44] Absolutely. And by the way there's see again, there's some connections. People think one of the things that has been always on my shelf just sitting in the back is people, people talk about how these men are. They're absolutely called of God by revelation. And I'm just like, you know that these guys are buddies, by the way. Oh John, I can't believe I forgot this. The house, the Midway Utah house. I'm going to any. Let's polar Facebook listening audience one more time. Not the next door house but the next house over from the house where this happened to me, my brother, the tub, everything, the neighborhood. You ready for this? Who was it again? Oh, that's right. I think his name was Thomas S. Monson. Thomas S. Monson was. Is my cousin Lowell's next door neighbor. Next door neighbor. I sent you a link and would be Happy to prove it to anyone you could see in property records. They're neighbors down the house, I think even down the same street, if I'm not mistaken. Long passed away. Marvin J. Ashton 100% I remember. I remember LOL telling me that.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] And is your point by that? Just that somehow these people know each other so much power and money and family and personal relationships that that's the underpinning for how much of this patriarchy and abuse cover up sort of happens.

Christopher Swallow [01:06:26] I call it a good. I call it the good old boys club. It's. I've heard it been called that before and that's not wrong. It absolutely is. These people. It is a good old boys club and at least to a large level, I think I believe. And so there are these connections. And you want to know who was stake president. I didn't know this until yesterday when I was. You want to know who was stake president of the Sharon east provost? SHARON East Stake Right before my cousin Lowell was. His name was Merrill J. Bateman. So evidently. Evidently. And also in addition to that little coincidence when Bateman went to evidently do what he did with releasing quietly Lowell and at this time Bateman was sent to do that. And I want to make sure I get this right because it was. And I'm pretty sure that Tingy was still in the presidency of the 70. Let me verify that real quick because I think I wrote this down.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Well, it's okay. I think the point just is worth noting that all these people know each other. Their family, their friends, their business partners.

Christopher Swallow [01:07:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] And that money and power and family and friendships are kind of all at the core. That's just how patriarchy works.

Christopher Swallow [01:07:56] Right.

Christopher Swallow [01:07:56] And so when we go to. Absolutely. We go to church headquarters and you know, it's, there's, as I was listening to this tape, that's what at the beginning you asked me, you know, did this trigger you listening to this woman demand. She was, she was, she was, she needed answers like she needed oxygen. And, and for me personally it was somewhat less than that. But yet the question still persists what was done? Did they say anything at all? Was there a conversation? Or did they protect each other? And I'm kind of being facetious because for me, I think I know the answer. If you have to ask, you already know the answer. For me, I think that's what it is. And so yeah, it's, that's why this is. It's not cool at all. You were mentioning it at the beginning, these private interviews, the personal questions about sexuality, those needed to stop 20 years ago. And it's time. It's time.

John Dehlin [01:09:14] They're.

Christopher Swallow [01:09:15] It's done. They're. They're done. This ends. This ends. And this is why I'm here. It's. It's why anyone that is related to me that is impacted to this family, again, I want my, any family member who might be hearing this or impacted. This is, this is not a. Has not even to do with Lowell. I truly, I harbor no animosity whatsoever against Lowell. Truly. I really don't. I don't. I think maybe for other people in my family, they might be. Feel different, but I have a feeling that there are other, at least other family members of mine personally, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say here we are, 2018. There's a pretty good chance that there are other family members out there who have sat quiet, silent in the dark, terrified of what this man with power and influence can do. There are missionaries. What are the odds if there was a rape room. There was a rape room in the basement of the MTC during 83 to 86. And this happened to me with, with a man who was called to be mission president in 90. So my thing happened in 88 to 89. My brother's in the early 90s called 90. What do you think the odds are that there is a. That something could have happened in the Mexico Leon mission over three years? What do you think the odds are? And I think the odds are good enough that I'm here talking to you right now and I'm not afraid of this at all. At all. Nothing about the church, their influence, their money, their power. That's the beautiful thing about having your shelf crash and realizing and waking up. It hurts like, hurts like hell. But there is a peace that comes with it, no question.

Recognizing the Abuse and Its Lasting Harm

John Dehlin [01:11:27] Can you share? Just, you know, you obviously weren't. You were sexually groomed. I would call it sexual abuse to have you rolling around naked or semi naked on a sheepskin. But, but of course, as horrible as that was, there are also going to be probably people that, that were abused even worse than you were. But, but, but, but with the limits, you know, with the abuse that you did experience, can you talk about what that has done to you personally? Kind of how that affects, you know, or has affected your life?

Christopher Swallow [01:12:02] If it has that, it's a great question. And I'm, I'll be completely honest because, and I, and I think for me personally it's, I feel lucky and it's remarkable because again, for me, when these experiences happen John, I think I was so aloof and there was so much trust for me that at the time, I truly, there was nothing malicious or negative that I allowed at the time to, I guess, filter through me or impact me. And like I was saying, after these things happened to me personally, I didn't think about them again until when my brother came over. Truly, they were out of sight, out of mind. And so I feel truly lucky that at least personally, I feel like the impact. Very, very, very minimal. Very minimal at all.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] I'm very glad. Go ahead.

Christopher Swallow [01:13:14] Go ahead. Oh, not, not the same for my, not the same for my brother. Not even remotely close. In fact, I.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] Or the other. Or the other individual. Right.

Christopher Swallow [01:13:26] No, not even remotely close. Not even close. I want to say this.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] And that was. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I just was going to add some things. When you're, yeah.

Christopher Swallow [01:13:38] My brother, he, again, he doesn't know I'm doing this. We don't really talk that much right now anyway. But if he does get word of this, whatever, he has nothing to be embarrassed about at all. This is not about him or me. But John, my brother, well, you can kind of guess the same the general age range I am and my brother's just right behind me. Not a successful relationship to speak of. This has impacted his life in a way. It's, it's disgusting. And what I've never said this to my brother or anyone, but I don't when

John Dehlin [01:14:34] what.

Christopher Swallow [01:14:36] Yeah. What he's been through.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] So, so and that, you know, as we, first of all, I just want to say, Christopher, we, you know, we can't probably overemphasize how much courage it is for you to come forward and tell the story. You're using your name, you're naming names. I've known you long enough and known close friends, mutual friends to know that this is a story to be believed. Abusers need to be believed. There's a saying, start by believing. And but as I think about how hard it must be, I also think about the way that so many people reacted to the Joseph Bishop story almost immediately, both through LDS newsroom, but also through Tad Walsh's Deseret News article and then through the own son of Joseph Bishop. What so often happens is immediately people come out and try and dig up dirt to discredit the victims. And in the case of the church, in its newsroom statement, it sneaks in that she didn't finish her mission. Well, of course she didn't finish her mission. She was abused by her mission. You know, MTC President. But of course that's what they call dog whistling. That's signaling to members. Oh well, she wasn't even faithful enough to finish her mission. And then they slide in there that she's no longer a member. And then, you know, the son of Joseph Bishop tells everybody that she's sued other men and that actually she undressed of her own volition in front of her dad and that her dad didn't ask her to be undressed. And, and of course now the own dad's testimony contradicts the son's testimony because the dad himself admitted to a police report that, that he asked the girl to, to show him her breasts. And, but the point is, let's just say her life was wrecked. Let's just say she did go to jail or try to kill him or, or even had bad sexual experiences with other men or was litigious. You know, to what extent is it right or moral for the church and their newsroom and their PR arm through the Deseret News to manipulate the journalistic process to subtly or even not so subtly malign the character of this woman, even if they were to find out that afterwards she wasn't fully honest or misrepresented some things. Was, was yesterday the date and the time for the church to be smearing and maligning this woman or was it the church's job to say, you know what, we've known about this for years, we clearly didn't handle it very well. Before we send out Tad Walch to smear and malign this woman's character, before we issue a new statement that, that sends all sorts of dog whistley type insults this woman's way, we're going to just say we're going to look into this and we're going to make sure that we've got our ducks in a row and that we can say that we handled it wrong and take responsibility for ways that we mishandled it before we already start manipulating the public through pr. Absolutely. And so it just goes to this idea of we need to be really careful before we're publicly maligning the victims, especially when we're an institution, a multi billion dollar institution of power.

Christopher Swallow [01:18:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:18:20] And of course, and of course I'm just going to sort of monologue and say it's these meetings where 12 year olds and 8 year olds are taught that it's okay for them to be alone in a room with a man. This is how we're grooming our children, children and our young men and young women to be vulnerable for abuses like you and others have experienced. So the. That's why Sam Young's initiative of protecting the Children, a March for the Children, needs to be. Needs to be successful. That's why the Church needs to end these salacious interviews where men behind closed doors ask sexual, sexually explicit questions to minors, to children, and even to young adults or adults. And they need to have a 2D policy where any meeting that's ever held has at least two people in addition to the person that's being interviewed, that nobody ever gets interviewed without parental consent if the children are minors. And the Church needs to figure out some system where we need to stop protecting the abusers at the expense of the abused. Another very manipulating and deceiving statement that the Church made in its public statement was that when the Church learned about this report, that they contacted the police immediately. What the Church has deceived people about is, yes, they contacted the police, but it was to protect Joseph Bishop because they thought, oh, my gosh, this victim is so angry they might hurt Joseph Bishop. So they didn't contact the police to. To turn in Joseph Bishop and to get him in trouble. They turned. They turned the police to turn in the victim and to make sure that the victim was possibly punished by law. And there was no attempt, There was no attempt by the Church to get the police to investigate Bishop for his illegal maneuvers. And I've heard this time and time and time again that the Church has a hotline that Bishop sort of call. And I've had bishops and members of bishoprics tell me over and over again that through this hotline they've been told, do not report, do not report, do not report. You know, what has happened. And so many times it's been these Curtin McConkey lawyers that are on the other end of these phone calls, who. Their job is not to protect the victim. It's not to reach out and make sure the victims are okay. It's to silence the victims, to protect the church leaders and to ultimately protect the Church's good name and the Church's financial assets. And I just have to ask you, Christopher Swallow, did Earl C. Tingy provide you with any emotional support, physical support, mental health, counseling for you as a victim? What did Tingy ever offer you in terms of support as a victim? No one can see you so talk so they can see you talk.

Christopher Swallow [01:21:38] Absolutely. Zero. Zero. Like I said, last words. Thanks for coming in. Thanks for coming in, guys. We'll get back to you. And that was 90. 95, 0. I want to say one more John, there is a very subtle point adding to everything you said, which I can, I cannot agree with more. There is a subtle nuance about that press release, the Church's response. That is so to me, it just came standing out. And that is the fact in their release, never once did they mention the existence of a audio recording. They danced around. There was no mention of an audio recording. There was mention of reports and allegations and what they mentioned in there, but there was no reference of an audio recording. Because why? Because if they mention the existence of an audio recording, what are the people gonna want to do? Going to go find it and listen to it? There was no reference of that audio recording. And to me, I found that absolutely dancing around.

Church Accountability and Lack of Support

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Chris, I'm just going to say that your audio's choppy a little bit. So we didn't get that last point. Can you repeat it just really succinctly?

Christopher Swallow [01:23:11] Yeah, just basically that there was no mention of an audio. No mention whatsoever of the very existence of a two hour, 45 minute audio tape. That brings all of this to the surface at this day, at this time. And they. And any reference to the allegations or what was in the audio tape was again, that it was referenced without as. As though they were just allegations on, you know, like just a report or something like that. It was again, it was. There's no audio tape to listen to, folks. So.

John Dehlin [01:23:50] And how off which audio tape are you talking about? With you or with.

Christopher Swallow [01:23:54] No, the, the release. The Bishop.

John Dehlin [01:23:57] Okay, you're saying they didn't reference it?

Christopher Swallow [01:23:59] Yeah, no reference.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Okay, got it, got it. Okay. The other thing I just want to say is how evil is it that we know that the Church learned about the audio recording in the December ish time frame and by January the Mormon Church is lobbying the Utah State legislature to pass a law making it illegal to share any audio, to record any audio recording that doesn't allow both parties to consent and making it a felony potentially for anyone to share any audio recording in the state of Utah that's obtained without both parties consenting. That's just a blatant and egregious exercise of authority on the Church's part to try and manipulate the sovereign legal process of a sovereign state to make it so. You know, potentially this audio recording wouldn't be shared of Joseph Bishop, but also to prevent any future audio recordings from ever being shared. And I just want to say that is, that is an awful, abusive, egregious usage of authority. It's disgusting and the Church should be ashamed. And the Utah State Legislators who introduced that legislation, who denied that the church had any influence in its introduction until they were shamed, thanks to the good work of Steve Urquhart and others for lying about the real sponsors of that bill. They tried to make it sound like the Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce or whatever were behind that legislation, when in reality, it was very widely known behind the scenes that the Mormon Church had introduced that legislation in 2018 to make it a felony to record these bishop conversations so that the church could again, not protect the victims, not provide aid and comfort to the victims of sexual abuse, but to defend the abusers and defend the institution, the corporate institution, from. From, you know, it's its reputation being damaged or any lawsuits that might cost the church money. And I just want to say again that the church is acting disgusting. And I want to recommend that everybody read the Feminist Mormon Housewives post that was recently penned by a brilliant feminist, I believe her name is Tracy. And I am going to share that actually now on the website, if I can. Actually, the website's down, but if anyone who can, please share the link to that in the show notes. It's an amazing article that sort of calls the church out on how inappropriately it's handling this. So that's my rant. Christopher, anything you want to share before we wrap this up?

Christopher Swallow [01:27:01] Wow. Number one, thank you. Seriously, John, like what you, what you do. I. For everyone, for all the folks on Reddit, it's you. We all handle grief and pain and ourselves, you know, crashing in different ways. And to see how you have carried yourself and what you've done and how you've turned that. Seriously, personally, I can't say enough. Thanks. And I know that everyone else, so many others, thank you for that and for even thinking about how I'm truly, truly humbled that you would even have me. To my family members. Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:27:48] Thank you. Now, I just want to say it really is the Open Stories foundation donors that make all this possible.

Christopher Swallow [01:27:55] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] We're thrilled to do it. Our staff makes this possible. Amy Grubbs, Cody Layton, Sharon Price, and then the Open Stories foundation board. But most importantly, everyone who's a donor, I want you to pat yourselves on the back because donations are what keeps our staff alive and what keeps the Open Stories foundation going. But. But also shout out to feminist Mormon Housewives, Ryan McKnight of ex Mormon, of MormonLeaks, ex Mormon Reddit, and everyone who speaks up, everyone who has a voice.

Christopher Swallow [01:28:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:28:25] Because it takes all of us. So I'm going to deflect that to all the many people who make this possible.

Christopher Swallow [01:28:32] Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm trying. There, There's. I want to say. I don't know if my kids. I don't know when, if they'll ever. I just. Sorry. It's really hard. I just want my kids to know how much I love them and how much they mean to me. I. I wish that things were different for our family, you know, that I was closer to them and that they're very close to. They're still, you know, close to the church and this stuff. When you want to protect them and care for them, I can't tell them how much I love them, so I just want them to know that. And to other family members who might be affected or involved or embarrassed, again, I have no intention here to embarrass anyone. It's all. If there's anything else out there, it needs to come out. It needs to come out. I think that's probably it. I. Yeah, there's. There is. There's actually stuff that I. About my brother that I almost wondering if I should add as a little footnote on it or not. John,

John Dehlin [01:30:25] it's up to you. If it's his story to tell, it's okay to not tell it, but if, if there's something. Yeah, I, I mean, it's up to you, but it's up to you.

Christopher Swallow [01:30:39] All people need to know is there's more. There's more. I know more. Much more that affects. That has affected the same players. But they're not my stories to tell. And like I said, just to my family members, I love all of them, no matter what. My brothers, my mom and dad, all of you. And that's the. I guess that's. I'll just leave it at that. That's probably, probably the best way.

Reflection, Gratitude, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [01:31:19] All right. Well, Christopher Swallow. It's, it's, it's. It's an interview that I've wanted to do for a long time. I just want to thank you so much. Thank you for your courage in doing this. So many of the listeners are sending hearts and sad, sad faces and tears. Marcy writes, thank you for your courage. Peggy writes, the FMH posts are amazing. Kathy writes, much love. Stacy has hearts there. Ryan says, bless you, brother. Char and Crystal both have a bunch of hearts there. Cecilia's got the XOs going strong. Char says, we love you. Thanks for your vulnerability. Tanya says, thank you. Yeah. Pete gives you the thumbs up. So lots and lots of people sending you love for your courage and support. Also want to give a shout out to Jeremy young. You know, this wouldn't happen without Jeremy. Jeremy's been a dear friend for a long time along with Molly, and this would not have happened without Jeremy. And we love you, Jeremy and Molly.

Christopher Swallow [01:32:21] One of these days you need to have them on a podcast. One of these days, this story. Yeah, it's amazing. And those that couple, those two for sure have them on.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] And Miles Groomer also said hi. So anyway, just to finish, I want to thank everyone for tuning in today. If you, if you have a story that is, you know, verifiable on some level so that there's just zero question about it being true, where you or someone you love or care about or someone you know reported or experienced sexual abuse in the Mormon Church and it was covered up, nothing was done about it. Or even worse, if the abusers were protected at the expense of the abused. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we will do our best to tell this story. We will keep telling these stories until the Church stops interviewing children and minors alone, one on one or vulnerable people. Until the Church stops sexual explicit interviews and until the church stops protecting abusers at the expense of the abused. And until the Church stops trying to make it illegal in Utah to record conversations of these meetings. And until the Church comes clean and apologizes to all the victims, just like the Catholic Church has, the LDS Church has to apologize to all the victims of sexual abuse that we know have not been supported, have not been cared for over the past several decades.

Christopher Swallow [01:34:08] So this gets worse.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] Please reach out.

Christopher Swallow [01:34:10] This gets worse until it stops. That's what's, that's what's going to happen.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] And really, Dallin Oaks needs to retract his statement that the Church does not, does not apologize. And the church needs to apologize. So thanks for everyone who's tuned in. Thanks to everyone who donates to support the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this without you. If you want to see more programming like this, continue, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button at the top right of the page and 10, 20, 50, $100 a month, whatever you could afford. It keeps the staff employed, it keeps all the expenses paid and it makes all this possible. Please support our events. Go to mormonstories.org events join us for Tara Westover March 29 join us for March for the Children March 30. Please join us for Angela Soph's visit and the Salt Lake retreat, the Houston retreat, the Bahamas cruise, and we want to do workshops and retreats in Boise, in Colorado in the Midwest and in lots of other areas. So if you're interested in having us host a workshop or retreat, email us@staffopenstoriesfoundation.org and we would love to bring a workshop or retreat to your area. Thanks so much everybody. And Christopher Swallow, thank you again for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You take care, brother.

Christopher Swallow [01:35:36] Thank you. You too.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Soph's upcoming album Second Wind. Inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of Orthodox religion. You can find and follow her on social media as Angela Soph. Bam. That's S O F F E on Spotify or angelasof.com.

Christopher Swallow [01:36:23] To let them down so judge me Cast me your stones I will lay them back at your feet Take my hand let's walk among we like to throw our at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all stand in a circle and point a finger or two Tell me how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles we're all thinking Thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at home. The truth is not what it seems we are told to just be believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to hold our hearts Is there.