Welcome and Guest Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 26, 2021, and I could not be more happy or excited to have our special guest for today for this Mormon Stories podcast episode. Today we have with us none other than the Mike Rinder.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Mike, Mike is the co host of a new podcast called Scientology Fair Game. Along with Leah Remini, Mike also appeared. Mike Rinder also appeared in the documentary known and loved by many Mormons called Going Clear, which was also a book by Lawrence Wright.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Mike Rinder was also kind of a participant and or co producer in the Leah Remini series on Scientology that appeared. And going back even further, Mike Rinder was a Scientologist for many years and he was a high level, top level executive. You could even say maybe David Miscavige's right hand man. You can correct me if I'm wrong about that, Mike, but he was the leader of Scientology's Office of Special affairs, which handled public public relations, legal and government relations, and handling the enemies of Scientology while he was a a member of Scientology. And ultimately he is, as I understand it, the highest level defector of Scientology to date.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] And by his own words, he along with Leah Remini are sort of considered public enemies numbers one and two of Scientology. And you have a special place in my heart, Mike, because I think I am public enemy number one of the LDS Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, even though that's not what I'm gunning for. But without any further ado, Mike Rinder, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Mike Rinder [00:02:11] Thanks so much, John. It's really a pleasure to be here. As I was saying to you before we got on air, I have had the fortunate experience of dealing with now a lot of people from different religious backgrounds and cult appearances and involvements in high control groups. And it's always a pleasure to sort of expand my own understanding and perhaps bring some understanding to others based on my experience.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] I totally agree. And so again, I'm just thrilled to have you on. Okay, so there's so much I would want to talk about. And for today, we only have an hour in 10 minutes or so, so I'm going to just jump right in. Is that okay?

Mike Rinder [00:03:00] Of course, of course.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] So for. For those of my listeners who have not learned a lot about Scientology, I want to just let you all know that I did 10 plus hours with Chris Shelton episodes 1189 all the way to 1202. Many, many hours, 13 hours with Chris Shelton if you want. Lots of background on the history of Scientology, on the history of L. Ron Hubbard, on what it's like to be a Scientologist. I'm not going to use my pre Mike rinder to dig into all that so much today because of our limited time. So I'm going to just ask listeners to go back and check all that out. There's also some great interviews with Mike. Mike, I'm just going to dig in with you on some very specific things, if that's okay.

Mike Rinder [00:03:44] Of course, like I told you, John,

John Dehlin [00:03:46] I'm an open book.

Mike Rinder [00:03:48] Ask me anything, no restrictions, whatever, whatever.

Mike Rinder's History Inside Scientology

John Dehlin [00:03:52] Okay, so give my listeners just a quick introduction into your kind of your high level history with Scientology and what you did. Let's spend a few minutes on that.

Mike Rinder [00:04:05] Okay. You know, I was really raised a Scientologist and I joined what's called the Sea Organization as soon as I graduated high school. And the Sea Organization is like the inner circle of Scientology. The most dedicated members who work Full time 24, 7, 365 days a year in service of Scientology, signing a billion year contract to pledge yourself for eternity to working for Scientology.

Mike Rinder [00:04:40] In over a period of nearly or a little more than 30 years, I rose to the top of the Scientology International hierarchy. I was a member of the board of directors of the Church of Scientology International from 1982 until I left in 2007.

Mike Rinder [00:05:03] Much of the time between in the 80s, 90s and 2000s, I spent as the person who was in charge of the external affairs of Scientology, the Office of Special affairs, which meant I dealt with government agencies, with litigation, with public relations, and as John mentioned in his intro, with dealing with the enemies of Scientology. And when dealing with is a euphemistic term that really means in Scientology, dealing with the entities of Scientology means destroying them. And what I mean by that is silencing them so that they no longer speak out or have a voice.

Mike Rinder [00:05:56] It's. It's called. There is a term in Scientology or in the Office of Special affairs, which is used to measure the success of the Office of Special affairs, which is that the person has become a dismissed attacker. And an attacker in Scientology is anybody at all, whether a former Scientologist and never a Scientologist, a member of the media, a politician, anyone who challenges the thought and party line of Scientology. And. And this ranges from people literally who simply question or write media articles that are not flattering towards Scientology, like Rich Behar when he wrote his Time magazine article in 1993, to those who seek to expose the really sordid underbelly of Scientology like Leah Remini and I, and every person who is on that list of enemies of Scientology is someone who should be dispensed with.

Mike Rinder [00:07:15] And in. In Scientology terminology, that really means shut up. But it also implies, and it is true in Scientology that people like myself or Leah Remini or the reporters at the Tampa Bay Times or some others who have spoken repeatedly about against the abuses of Scientology would be better off dead. And I mean that literally. The world would be a better place in the view of Scientologists if we were not alive at all.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] That's so grim. That's grim.

Mike Rinder [00:07:59] Yeah, it is grim. You know, what's odd in some respects, John, about Scientology, and particularly this dealing with the enemies of Scientology, is the fact that it's all written down that L. Ron Hubbard was so, you know, obsessed with having his words and his thoughts recorded and made available to everyone to. To use that even his thoughts and directives and directions on how you are supposed to destroy people are written down. And, you know, while for a long time they sort of remained under the veil of secrecy that Scientology has, you know, since its inception, spent a lot of time and effort to maintain, with the advent of the Internet, all that kind of went away.

Mike Rinder [00:08:58] You know, the Internet is the. The. You know, someone described it as the Vietnam of Scientology. It's really the Waterloo. It is the end of the road as far as Scientology goes, because cults like Scientology are reliant upon the idea that they can keep their dirty laundry secret. And that is no longer the case. And as a result, I think that the influence of Scientology has become less and less. And I think that the, you know, people coming into Scientology newly is diminishing rapidly.

Parallels Between Scientology and Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Yeah, I think there's so many parallels between the Church of Scientology and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints of the Mormon Church. But I wanted to just. With kind of this joke that we have in the Mormon Church, which is we're grateful for Scientologists because they make us look normal or they make us look a bit. A bit less weird. But the truth is there are so many parallels. You know, one of them being, I don't know if you know this, but the Mormon Church started, and I'm a Mormon. I'm a Mormon kind of video media PR campaign, but they did that inspired by the Scientologists, because if you go back just a year prior to the I'm a Mormon campaign, there's the I'm a Scientologist campaign. Were you aware of the I'm a Scientologist campaign?

Mike Rinder [00:10:26] Yes, I was a part of putting that together. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] Did you know that you inspired us in that?

Mike Rinder [00:10:32] No, I was not aware of that. I'm sad to hear. Unfortunately, there are a lot of things that I have in my past that I have got to take ownership for and responsibility for, but they're not particularly pleasant.

Mike Rinder [00:10:51] Although, you know, John, a lot of people say, well, you know, you know, how do you feel about this or that? I honestly have clearly enormous regrets for the things that I have been involved in or the people that I hurt or the actions that I took. But I can't, on the other hand, change history.

Mike Rinder [00:11:17] I can't change what happened in the past. I can only change how things are going in the future. And I am seeking to, I guess, atone in some fashion for that by being, you know, pretty active on trying to now expose what really goes on in Scientology. You know, I don't know why I got off into that. Like I told you.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Were you. Were you embarrassed by the I'm a Scientologist campaign? Was there something about that that you're embarrassed about or sad about?

Mike Rinder [00:11:57] No, I'm. I'm sad that it inspired some other organization to follow in those footsteps. Oh, sure.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Sure.

Mike Rinder [00:12:06] I'm sad that if someone saw those ads and got involved in Scientology and ended up having, you know, their family torn apart or losing all their money and having to file bankruptcy, I'm. I'm very sorry that I had any part to play in bringing that about.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] There's a. There's a T shirt that goes around Mormonism that literally says, I'm sorry for what I said when I was Mormon. And this is. Yeah, this is so complex because. But. But when you did the I'm a Scientologist campaign, it was very similar to the I'm a Mormon campaign. It's got a skateboarder who's cool, who says, I'm a Mormon, or it's got a painter who. Who's an artist. And then can you just tell the philosophy that went behind that media campaign that then we copied and used ourselves?

Mike Rinder [00:12:57] Well, the idea was to. To take or attempt to take Scientology out of. Oh, this is the widows that are on the fringe of society and make it clear that this could be you. This could.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] You.

Mike Rinder [00:13:11] You could be a Scientologist, just like these people now. It's funny, John, that that is what was the objective, you know, Scientology for since its formation. And the. The objective of L. Ron Hubbard always was to try and take Scientology mainstream, like, have it be part of the culture have it be part of what everybody is a part of so that it's no longer the widows on the fringes today.

Mike Rinder [00:13:43] One of the things that I am most proud of is the fact that we. I believe that we have gone a long way to changing the perception of Scientology in the. In the very broader public, you know, perception through the aftermath show that, look, this could be you. That people who get involved in cults, whether by familial connection and being brought in as a child or by joining because they feel like something, it might be helpful to them, or they might be able to help other people for a long time. The. The sort of dismissed or the easy way of dismissing what was going on in Scientology was, well, I've net that would never be me.

Mike Rinder [00:14:39] They prey on the weak. They prey on the people who. Who can't look after themselves. And so I don't need to worry about this because it's not me. And I think that the aftermath went a long way to showing that the people that get involved in Scientology and generally in cults are not bad people. They're not really different than the run of the mill guy that you might meet in the supermarket. They are normal people and in many instances, they have an almost heightened consciousness for doing good for the world. A lot of people get into cults because they believe that they're going to be able to help other people.

Mike Rinder [00:15:31] You know, that's not a bad personality trait to have the desire to be helping other people. And I think that it's funny. I am a Scientologist on one hand, in the earlier part of my life was an attempt to mainstream Scientology, and the aftermath was an attempt to mainstream the victims of Scientology.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Yeah, it's so complex because I do think there's so many members of the LDS church as well that are smart, that are brilliant, that are good hearted. And that's what's so complex about these organizations is if you go to the periphery of the organization, kind of where the members meet the rest of the world. The there are often good families, bright people, smart people, honest people trying to do good. And it's always once you get closer to the center, where you see sometimes the corruption, the misinformation, the deception, and it can be really disorienting. Mike, let me just ask you, what do you think about Mormons?

John Dehlin [00:16:37] Have you had interactions with Mormons? What do you think about the Mormon Church? When you think of us, do you think about just a normal Christian church? Think of the Mormon church as a cult. Just download for us a Few minutes on your impressions of and. Or interactions with Mormons and, and the Mormon Church and your perceptions of it as on the one extreme harmful cult, on the other extreme, the super happy Osmond, like Christian, you know, religion. Where do you see us?

Mike Rinder [00:17:08] Okay, well, let me just first say, John, you know that the president of the Church of Scientology International, Heber Jense, the guy who has been disappear and hasn't been seen in public for a long time. But Heber Jensch was a very dear friend of mine. Heber was raised in a polygamous Mormon family and has, you know, a mother and 47 brothers and sisters and six sister wives. And he left that environment when he was, you know, in his early 20s, I think, and he took off and because he was a singer and an actor. But I have spent an inordinate amount of time with Heber and I know him very well and I talk to him a lot about Mormonism.

Mike Rinder [00:18:01] So my impression of Mormonism is. And the LDS Church itself is based on my understanding from Heber. My watching Big Love, my interaction with various people who I know are or have been Mormons. And my overall impression is twofold. One, I believe that the thing that the Mormons have going for them is their community and their willingness to support one another in their community. I have seen it. I have spoken to a lot of people who feel that the great value that the Mormon faith brings them is their connection to a community, no matter where they are in the world. And I think that that's incredibly important.

Mike Rinder [00:19:07] On the other hand, like you say, at the center of this is some pretty weird beliefs and pretty weird, you know, origin story of, you know, golden tablets and the angel Moroni and the planet Kolob and all of this sort of stuff, which is very reminiscent of Scientology.

Mike Rinder [00:19:35] Very. And is, I believe, if you can, here is my fundamental. I don't know, apart from breaking up families with, with disconnection or whatever you call it, I can't remember what your word is, but breaking up families is.

Mike Rinder [00:19:57] Is, you know, because people leave and then they become shunned and are no longer accepted parts of the community is, is terrible no matter where it happens and who it happens to. And the. The basis of it being a religious belief is absolute insanity and is so contradictory to this idea that Mormonism promotes the family and community. And yet Mormonism is the reason that people get shunned.

Mike Rinder [00:20:27] But I have this belief, and I think that this is probably fairly well borne out, in fact, that if you can get someone to believe crazy, crazy stuff and, you know, and in Scientology, there's the story of Xenu and the Galactic federation and volcanoes 75 million years ago and people being blown up and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you can get them to believe that sort of crazy stuff, you can get them to go along with a lot of other things.

Mike Rinder [00:21:03] And the other things are often the things that are more harmful because those beliefs are very internalized. And those beliefs in. In Xenu and body thetans and all the other. The other crazy things that you hear about Scientology don't really affect anybody outside of that individual. And any individual is free to believe and think any way they want. What they're not free to do is act any way they want. And when you can persuade someone about one crazy thing which leads them to believe another crazy thing, that's when it starts getting dangerous, because that's when you start having people taking actions that are not in the best interests of themselves or others. Yeah, I'm not sure that's your question.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] No, no, no.

Mike Rinder [00:22:00] Sure. Yes. Okay, well, then I'm gonna stop there.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] No, no, keep going. Keep going. What else are you gonna say?

Mike Rinder [00:22:07] I was just gonna say I have not experienced myself or seen myself the sort of abuses in the LDS that I have seen in Scientology. But I haven't been a woman. I haven't been in. In the LDS Church. I haven't. My experience is in Scientology, so I know what goes on in Scientology. Yeah, I don't know what goes on in the modern religion, so I'm not sure that. That I have a really informed, formed opinion to offer about that, other than sort of the general way that I've expressed it, which is it's pretty dangerous when you can start convincing people to believe in crazy shit, because that means you can start convincing them to believe in other crazy shit. And that other crazy shit is what starts to get them to do things that are crazy.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Yeah. And. And, you know, as a. As a lead up to this interview, I put this question out. Who does more harm, the Mormon Church or the Church of Scient? And I don't want to spend a lot of our precious time talking about that, other than to say just a couple quick things.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] One of the things that discouraged me, discourages me sometimes. So as I've listened to your wonderful podcast with Leah Remini called Scientology Fair Game, what I've heard come up over and over again, you're like, is anybody listening? Why? What? You know, whether it's the. Scientology's abuse with the tax code, it's. It's IRS tax exemptions. It's the abuses that it performs. It's all the ways that it can use its tax exempt status to do all sorts of harm. What I hear you and Leah Remini just saying over and over again is why isn't this a problem? Why isn't the US Government reacting? Why isn't this stuff illegal?

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Why are they being protected? I resonate with that outrage because believe me, we have the same outrage. We're like, how? You know, in the Mormon Church, it's all the LGBTQ suicides. We have an epidemic of LGBTQ suicides. The. It's the unnecessary divorces that happen. It's the families being torn apart. It's the. But more importantly with us, there is a lot of good that happens in the Mormon Church. But what's disturbing is the fact that there's no informed consent that people are born into this faith. They give two year mission service, they give 10% of their income, they give so many hours a week, they give their full lives to this organization when they have not been taught an accurate view of the church's founding narrative, of the problems with the church, of the way that it's hurt people, the way that it continues to hurt people.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] And so it's the deception. And it was an intentional deception. Because what we can show over the past 120 years is that the church leaders have known about the fundamental historical and problems with the church of truth claims and have intentionally chosen to keep this truth from the members decade after decade after decade. Which then leads to the lack of informed consent. It's not that the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints is beating people like David Miscavige. It's not that we're imprisoning people like Scientology, but it is that millions of people, not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people have been deceived into giving their lives, their time, their reputation, and 10% of their income for their entire lives under false pretenses without informed consent.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] It's a different type of harm, but it's still harm. And there's sometimes when I talk to reporters or when I talk to, you know, people that would do documentaries, they're like, well, you're not as. You're not as violent as Scientology. You Mormons aren't as brutal as Scientologists. It makes me a little bit sad because. Because I'm like, wait a minute. There should be as much outrage around the Mormon Church as there is around Scientology. Not cause we're beating people, but because we're a $300 billion organization, soon to be a trillion dollar organization. And because we're benign, we're a little bit more benign. We have more power.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] We have Mitt Romney, a presidential candidate. We have, you know, the Senate Majority leader formerly in Harry Reid. We have so much more power and influence, which in some sense makes us more dangerous. And so it's a different type of weighing of the harm. But that's kind of why I asked the question and that's kind of what's behind it. Does that make any sense to you?

Mike Rinder [00:26:56] Oh, it makes total sense. And I'm not sure what the answer to that question is. John. The truth of the matter is for anybody who has been affected by either organization, it doesn't matter if your family has been destroyed or your life has been destroyed. Either one of them is just as bad as the other. And, you know, there's not much point in arguing whether it's better to be shot in the head by a shotgun or shot in the head by a.45. I mean, yeah, one way or the other, it's going to do you some serious damage. And the discussion about which is worse is sort of kind of missing the point because they both have things that need to be stopped, abuses that need to be stopped.

Mike Rinder [00:27:53] And that's really the point, you know. Yeah, you bring up, you bring up an interesting thing because, see, I look at it and you go, wow, you know, the Mormons are more benign and we've got more influence and this and that. So, you know, it frustrates me because the, the filmmakers and stuff and documentarians that come go, wow, you're not like Scientology. And I go, yeah, frustrates me because they say to us, you're not like Nexium because you don't brand women on their pubic area.

Mike Rinder [00:28:29] And you, and you know, like, okay, yeah, I get it, that's true. But you know, is the abuse really that much worse? I mean, the big difference of course is nxivm. You know, Keith Ranieri made a big, big mistake when he didn't formulate his activity into a religion so he could get First Amendment protection.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Sure. Well, I'm not interested in kind of this pain or abuse Olympics other than to say, I think we are going to. I know that you and Lee are trying to make a difference. I know that Jehovah's Witnesses have their activists.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] I know that many high demand religions and or cults have their activists. I believe that we're going to be more effective to the extent to which we collaborate and unite. And I just want to make sure that. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that the Mormon Church is harming people, too.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] And I think by you coming on this podcast, in some sense, you're kind of recognizing that. And that's as much as I wanted from the conversation, is kind of acknowledgement that all of us have our pain points as a community and that we all need to kind of support each other, because I believe that the impact we can make by collaborating like you guys did when you brought the Jehovah's Witnesses into your TV series. We were all excited as Mormons that you might feature us the following year, because the. The problem is bigger than Scientology, it's bigger than Nexium, it's bigger than Mormonism. And I think we'll be able to make a bigger difference the extent to which we collaborate. That's. That's my biggest point.

Mike Rinder [00:30:08] I. I'm. I'm 100% with you, John, and I think maybe you should come on our podcast next.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] I mean, I'm there. I'm there. Have a.

Mike Rinder [00:30:16] Have a talk about. About what your perspective on Mormonism is. Because, like, we get a lot of. Because of the prominence of the aftermath. A lot of people write to us. A lot of people send direct messages on Twitter or write on my blog or whatever saying, we need help. We've got, you know, we were part of this yoga group that, you know, this. This guy is like, just like Bikram. And, you know, can you help us? Or. We're a lot of ex Mormons, a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses, a lot of people from various Christian faiths have written to us and say, can you help us do what you've done for Scientology and expose what's really going on in our part of the world and our activities?

Mike Rinder [00:31:09] So I certainly understand that. And, you know, like, we've had podcasts with Mark Vicente from Nexium, and we're good. We've recorded one already with Sarah Edmondson, and she. She's in one of the upcoming episodes, and we've done Lloyd Evans from the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I think that you are correct that when people who have similar problems and similar experiences and similar objectives to end the abuses come together, you see societal change happening. And, you know, that's what happened with the MeToo movement. That is the sort of classic example of disparate people coming together, united in a cause that was a righteous one to end abuses in.

Mike Rinder [00:32:17] By powerful men, basically. And I see that And I hear you very clearly, and I think you speak great sooth about. This is a problem that will be best solved by. By everybody's shoulder to the wheel rather than 30 different people trying to do something.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, my. My. My listenership is just freaking out that you guys would have us on. I'm there. You just name the date and time, and I'm there. Okay. I read Leah's book. I loved it. And you guys inspire me because I've been doing this 16 years. My podcast is literally 16 years old.

Mike Rinder [00:33:07] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] Yeah. I'm 1400 episodes into my podcast. I've been doing it since 2005.

Mike Rinder [00:33:13] If you can you have a OG

John Dehlin [00:33:16] in podcasting, I might. I might be. Okay, Mike. Okay, really quick. I've got so many questions. So the. The. At the very. Be at the very top, I want to understand about Scientology. Is it a belief system? Is it a religion? And I've got got sub questions I want to ask about this, but do Scientologists believe that L. Ron Hubbard had some sort of supernatural or mystic power mandate, and do they view his writings as holy? And is. Is it a belief system? And I've even heard you and Leah maybe debate that a little bit. But I've got some sub questions. We don't need to go deep into this, but I wanted to ask you that question as a precursor to a couple other questions. How much of it is a belief system in sort of something extra powerful or supernatural verse or not?

L. Ron Hubbard's Role and Beliefs in Scientology

Mike Rinder [00:34:07] It's. It's very much that. It is very much the. The. And the writings and lectures. You know, Hubbard was a prolific writer, and. And he did like 3,000 lectures on the subject of Dianetics and Scientology. Those things. His writings are considered to be the scripture of Scientology.

Mike Rinder [00:34:29] They are the, you know, the. The text and the. The teachings of Scientology, and they're considered to be infallible. In other words, L. Ron Hubbard's words are considered to be. And Scientology will argue this to the end of time, but if you know enough about the subject, they are considered to be scripture and gospel and that there is nothing that L. Ron Hubbard said that should not be read literally and applied exactly as he said it.

Mike Rinder [00:35:13] You know, his words are literal. And Scientology says, well, you know, L. Ron Hubbard didn't consider himself to be a God and he was just a man, and blah, blah, blah. Well, that's kind of a part of the mainstreaming of Scientology, trying to get it to be acceptable and more mainstream and not have people freaking out going, oh, you think that L. Ron Hubbard is Jesus Christ.

Mike Rinder [00:35:42] So while on one hand they will say that Hubbard was just a man, on the other hand, the true belief of Scientology is that everything that he wrote, said, and did is the example that all mankind should be following. That the belief system of Scientology is. Is enormously detailed.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Right.

Mike Rinder [00:36:08] I mean, I alluded earlier to this stuff about Xenu and the volcanoes and 75 million years ago in the Galactic Federation and this and that, which is all the stuff that. That people sort of like to latch onto because it's so, you know, science fictiony. And Hubbard was a science fiction writer. And there is a good argument to be made that it just came out of his. The same imagination that created, you know, space aliens and robots in his science fiction, created space aliens and body thetans in Scientology. But there is much, much more to Scientology than that. There is a whole book that started it all called Dianetics, where Hubbard claimed to have discovered the true cause of all of mankind's physical and emotional ills and upsets and the.

Mike Rinder [00:37:16] And at the time when he wrote Dianetics in 1950, Scientology wasn't even a religion. It was a. It's called the Modern Science of Mental Health is the subtitle of the book. And he considered that it was science and that it was provable and that it had been scientifically tested. And this is a claim that Scientology makes often now. They put on TV ads on the super bowl and stuff that said when, you know, when science. The. The meeting of science and religion is Scientology, they still, like, push that. But there is a.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] It.

Mike Rinder [00:38:00] The. The story of how Scientology became a religion rather than a science is a pretty simple one, which was Hubbard lost the copyrights to Dynex because he drove everything into bankruptcy. And so he went and started something new, and he called it Scientology. And after he called it Scientology and started talking about the, you know, Satan, which is the Scientology term for spirit, someone out in California said, hey, you know, there's a big advantage to being. Calling yourself a religion. You get tax exempt status and basically a free pass in the courts. And he went, whoop. Sounds like a good angle to me. Let's give that a shot. And that was really the genesis of Scientology becoming a religion now.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] So. So this is. This is where there's such a big parallel, because both. Both Scientology and the Mormon Church were founded by author of fiction. Joseph Smith authored the Book of Mormon, which is fan fiction, and so does Scientology. Joseph Smith also tried to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon, but failed. But then. But then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was kind of the next step. It was a way for him to have a next level of power, influence, and frankly, a job after the book. And so what, what? But, but one of the big. I've got a few really big questions.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] One of the big ones is, you know, a lot of us wanted want to know, did Joseph Smith believe that he was still some way creating a book that really was inspired by God, or was it a conscious fraud? And I want to ask you to speculate. When you think about L. Ron Hubbard forming this religion, there's one interpretation that it was just, how do I make more money? Religion's a great way to make money. Or do you believe that in some way he actually felt he was a pirate, a pious fraud, or a sincere fraud? He felt like he was channeling the divine. He felt like he was being channeling into some type of supernatural force or influence.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] And that when he was writing about thetans, when he was writing about the solutions to mankind, whether he believed that there was some divine power flowing within him. Do you have. And I know you're speculating, but you knew him, so what's your speculation?

Mike Rinder [00:40:27] My speculation is that he had those two things. Just the straight fraud and the believer are not necessarily mutually exclusive. That he probably began with the idea of, I need to write a book that's gonna make me some money.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Yes.

Mike Rinder [00:40:53] And there is like a zeitgeist in the. In the world. It was, you know, 1949, right after the war. Everything's in turmoil, People are upset. There's lots of da, da, da. Oh, how about a book that tells people how to deal with their emotions? Like, I'm not so sure that this didn't start out as, how can I tap into this market?

Mike Rinder [00:41:25] But I also believe that from some early point, he got a sort of a messiah complex, that he had found something because Dianetics became a bestseller. And there were people all over the country who were forming Dianetics groups and explaining how this adventure and changed their life and made them better and blah, blah, blah. And suddenly what might have been a bit of a joke at the outset turned into something that he now has adoring fans who are telling him he saved their life, who. He saved their marriage. He did this for them. He did that for them. And I believe that he started to buy his own bullshit.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] Right?

Mike Rinder [00:42:14] And if you read the. The very end of Lawrence Wright's brilliant Going Clear book, he interviews the guy that was with Hubbard at the very end of his life, Steve Falf. And Steve says Hubbard was obsessed in the end of his life with body things.

Mike Rinder [00:42:35] Now you can say that this was all just science fiction made up, he invented a story, blah, blah, blah. But there's no doubt that at least at the end of his life. And you can say he had gone mad, who knows what? But he bought this shit. He believed it 100%. He's having Steve go out to fence posts looking for body thetans that are bothering him. He asked him to build a machine to zap the body. Satan's off his body. Now, if he believed that, that it was all just a con and all just a scam, I don't think that we would have heard that story at the end of his life.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Oh, that's such a great comparison. Okay, thank you. That's brilliant. Next question is very related. You were David Miscavige his right hand man. The number one question I get from my listeners is, do the current Mormon church leaders, the top, the quorum of the 12, the first presidency, are they sincere believers or are they perpetuating a conscious fraud? My view is that they probably are sincere believers. What I wanted to ask you is, in your exposures to David Miscavige, do you think he was a sincere believer or do you think, did you ever get any evidence or indication that he was a conscious fraud? And would he have ever let you know that? And then I've got more questions after that.

Mike Rinder [00:44:09] Okay, well, the answer to that question is no. He never gave me any indication that he was anything other than a sincere believer. Remember, he was raised a Scientologist, effectively. Yeah. The. The. His origin story in Scientology is that he was a small, very asthmatic child and had terrible problems, illnesses, etc, etc, and his father took him to get Dianetic auditing and Dianetics cured him of his asthma.

Mike Rinder [00:44:43] And he tells that story, and his dad tells that story. And it's, you know, by my observation of Miscavige, he believes in Scientology. On the other hand, I will say that for the last 10 or 15 years that I knew him, I didn't see him going into any auditing sessions, which is sort of like a Catholic not going to confession.

Mike Rinder [00:45:15] It's. That's kind of double standard. Expect from the very top of the hierarchy, you. You don't expect the Pope not to be showing up for confession or mass, but David Miscavige didn't. So I then go back and I usually answer this question because people always ask the same question, John.

Mike Rinder [00:45:38] I say, what difference does it make? It doesn't matter whether he believes it or doesn't believe it, he's still perpetrating it. And you can't excuse perpetrating abuses by saying, well, I believed it too. I think it's based on my belief. That's such a cop out to say, well, I did all these things just because that's what I believe was the right thing to do, or I didn't believe it, but I did it anyway, so what's the difference?

John Dehlin [00:46:17] Yeah, in Mormonism we have this term lying for the Lord. But there's this, I guess there's this mindset that if this really is God's one true church on the earth, if people's literal salvation is at stake, then by any means necessary. Kind of, to quote Malcolm X, like, if you have to lie, if you have to deceive, if you have to manipulate or even do harm to some, you have to protect the flock. And if you have to, you know, I've been excommunicated for the Mormon church. If you have to cut off or shun or even deceive sometimes that's just the cost of doing business when you're doing God's holy work. And so by any means necessary because people's lives are at stake and this is God's one true church.

Mike Rinder [00:47:06] Well, that's exactly the same in Scientology. I mean, the idea in Scientology is this concept of the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. And I'm not going to go into a big description. Chris Shelton probably described what the dynamics are, but fundamentally the belief is Scientology is the salvation of all mankind or the only salvation for all mankind. Not just mankind, but this entire sector of the universe. And that the good of Scientology and, and the, the, the, the importance of maintaining the good of Scientology for the good of all is outweighs any bad that could be done to prevent someone from harming that, that objective from being attained of Scientology.

Mike Rinder [00:48:04] Being able to salvage every man, woman and child on planet Earth so you have the exact same lying, cheating, stealing, destroying and abusing are all justified if they can be put into the category of this is being done for the good of all. And just like you have the good of the flock in Scientology, it's for the good of Scientology. And that is the case with every high control group I have ever come across. You know, I'm not a PhD in and I haven't studied this and I don't have a degree, etc. Etc. But from my observation, this concept that the ends justifies the means and the ends are always the ends that are beneficial for the organization.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] That.

Mike Rinder [00:49:03] That is the hallmark of a cult.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Rinder [00:49:07] One of the hallmarks.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Thank you. Okay, next question. So a lot of. A lot of us feel like if only we could have in the Mormon Church a high level defection, someone in kind of the top 15 power structure, that that would, you know. Because we're all wondering, how is it that so many people, how many active, believing, intelligent Mormons don't know the church's true history, don't know the way the church is harming people, maintain their orthodox belief? How is this possible? How do we break through? Not so that we destroy the church, but just so that we wake more people up to the truthfulness of the church, what it really is in our minds and our fantasies?

Leaving Scientology and High-Level Defections

John Dehlin [00:49:47] We think if only we could have a top level defection, that would make all the difference. My first question is, how does someone at your level. What does it take for someone at your level, right hand person, to. David Miscavige, what does it take to get someone like you to defect? How does that happen? What are the required ingredients that make you defect, but not David Miscavige? I would love to hear that.

Mike Rinder [00:50:14] Okay, well, what made me defect and what made anybody else defect is always something different. There is no formula for this. There is no. Like. I've spoken to dozens, if not hundreds of former Scientologists. What was it that caused them to leave? Usually it is a long series of small things that build up and finally a straw that breaks the camel's back.

Mike Rinder [00:50:47] And the thing that is, I guess, different about Scientology than Mormonism is that in Scientology you have things that are clearly physically and emotionally and mentally abusive that are going on. And those things, you know, in the. I'll speak from my own experience, you start out with stuff that happens to you where you are deprived of food or sleep or get beaten or, you know, punished for some, in. In some fashion. And you start out by believing that, look, this is. In the overall scheme of things, this doesn't really matter. This is not a big deal.

Mike Rinder [00:51:45] I probably deserved it. And this goes a lot into the Scientology fundamental beliefs of, you know, everything that happens to you, you were responsible for creating, etc. Etc. And a lot of guilt and shaming and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But as time goes on, these things sort of accumulate and your experiences accumulate, and for whatever reason, something cracks in the end. And, you know, for me, it was a long series of things, but ultimately, when I was dealing with the BBC in London and John Sweeney, the reporter from the BBC, was asking me on camera, you know, as David Miscavige, I have been told by seven or eight witnesses that they've seen David Miscavige physically assaulting you.

Mike Rinder [00:52:42] And I am lying saying, no, that's not the case and we'll sue you if you publish that. And you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I stopped at one point and I thought, you know, why am I defending this? What, what, what is it that is, is causing me to believe that this is a good thing to be lying about?

Mike Rinder [00:53:07] That, you know, I had lied about Xenu and other weird stuff to Katie Couric on the Today show and other far more dramatic things, if you will. But they all had underneath them my belief that this was for the betterment of Scientology. And I suddenly sort of stopped. And then David Miscavige said something about, well, you know, you're never seeing your wife and children again. And ultimately much of the reason that I had stayed for as long as I had stayed was because I couldn't figure out what to do about my two children and my wife. And when he said that, coupled with the lying about being beaten by him, I just kind of went, okay, this is the end of the road.

Mike Rinder [00:53:59] I'm out of here. If you don't have, like, if you've got the downside of leaving is greater than the upside, then you're going to stay. And I, you know, what that upside and downside is for every individual, like I said, is very different.

Mike Rinder [00:54:27] But I think that the difficulty that you have with getting high level defectors from the, from the Mormon Church is the same reason why David Miscavige is never going to leave. He has no upside for leaving. There's nothing that he is going to benefit and he is going to lose a lot if he leaves. He is not. He is going to lose control over a multi billion dollar empire. And I didn't have that control. Even though I was at the senior echelons of Scientology, I didn't have any control over the money. I couldn't snap my fingers and say, you know, I want a custom made suit, get me a new car, hire me a private jet.

Mike Rinder [00:55:14] That the only person that has that in Scientology is David Miscavige. And I think that you don't have that sort of physical, emotional. It becomes extraordinarily draining and you become very desperate through lack of sleep, which is a common thing that happens in Scientology. Even lack of food when you're in the sea organization.

Mike Rinder [00:55:47] And those physical aspects of it do have an impact on what your decision making process is. And I think that. That Scientology has done itself an enormous disservice and miscavige has done himself an enormous disservice by not recognizing that the, the abuses that he will inflict on people in order to demand obedience and control are the very things that have caused him to lose control over too many people and that those people now are biting him in the butt.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] That makes so much sense. Like again, why is the Mormon Church a 300 billion dollar plus organization versus Scientology? What? 3 billion? Yeah. I think the church benefits from not being as mean to its top leaders and by having a lot more money. And so with a lot more money in power and less brutality, the Mormon church is going to be less likely to have a top level defection. It sounds like what happened to you is the pain got too high and at some point your conscience woke up.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] And I think it's just harder in Mormonism. Let me just ask you. One of the things that's been really hard for me is all the attacks. I've been accused of abusing women. I've been accused of abusing children. I've been accused of financial impropriety.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] And a lot of times, oddly, it's been ex Mormons that have been the ones who have come forward with those sorts of completely fraudulent, false, manufactured attacks. But it's really hard to be in this space because you're constantly smeared with lies on the Internet. I googled your name for this interview and it's like, child abuser, child wife abuser, spousal abuser.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] But what's odd is you were part of those smears before you were the target of them. And I'm just. If you want to just like, how do you continue as an activist when your name is being smeared and drugged through the mud? How do you survive and persist? How do you. It's so hard for me. I can't imagine what it's. What it's like for you.

Mike Rinder [00:58:20] Well, John, I think that two things. One, I believe that the. The objective of Scientology is to silence me with that sort of activity that, you know, they're not literally beating me up in the street, they're smearing me on the Internet. And I believe that this is a mind game. And the way to win the mind game is not to be affected by the mind game.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] Yeah.

Mike Rinder [00:58:54] You know what they want me to do is shut up and go away. They want Leah to shut up and go away. And that's the last thing that I'M going to do because they put crazy shit on the Internet. The second thing is that thanks largely to the work that we did on the aftermath, generally people just look at anything that Scientology says about us in particular. But. But generally people who are whistleblowers or speaking out about abuses in Scientology and dismiss it whole just out of hand. Those publications and those smear things are really, at this point for their internal public. They want to be able to show to the Scientologist that comes along and says, oh my God, I just saw this thing.

Mike Rinder [00:59:54] And do you know that Leah Remini and Mike Rinda had this show and they have this guy on there and he was saying, blah, blah, blah. Well, they'll come back to those people and say, well, look here, this is what we've got about them. They're just liars. They're out there making money off this.

Mike Rinder [01:00:12] They're bitter, defrocked apostates, they're wife beaters, they're child abusers, they're this, they're that. The general public, however, don't tend to give much credence to those things anymore. And the longer they keep doing this, and the more it is proven just by reason of nothing actually happens, the less effect that it has.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay, so I'm encouraged and discouraged by the fact that on the one hand, you and Leah are just kicking. I don't want to say I don't always swear because I'm so Mormon, but kicking ass, you and Leah are kicking such.

Mike Rinder [01:01:09] Oh, don't listen to our podcast, John.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] No, I have, I have. I'm learning to swear. My children are teaching me to swear, but it's still hard for me. I still haven't tried beer, so swearing is. But. But Mike, how about coffee? I love coffee. That is. That is one way I fly my ex Mormon freak flag with my coffee. Okay, so on the one hand, I'm seeing you guys kick so much ass in terms of like waking the world up to Scientology, but on the other hand, if a high level defection like you doesn't bring down Scientology, what could? And then what could ever. And I'm not trying to bring down Mormonism so much as I'm trying to clean up Mormonism and just have the Mormon church hurt less people.

John Dehlin [01:01:53] But I guess this is a long way of asking the question, how much of a difference have you and Leah made and others, these high level defections, what are the ways it's made a difference? Why hasn't it take down Scientology yet? And what can we. This is how we're going to end. What do we need to do to make a bigger impact in Mormonism and Scientology and in the bigger world of high demand, harmful religions, organizations and or cults? So let's start with what is the impact you have made?

Changing Public Perception and Calls to Collaborate

Mike Rinder [01:02:25] I think that we have changed. Generally the perception of Scientology is just sort of this wacky Hollywood thing that causes movie stars to, to jump on Oprah Winfrey's couch to. This is actually an organization that is engaged in systematic abuse of people and something needs to be done about it.

Mike Rinder [01:02:51] And as frustrating as it is about how slow the. But because of course, you, you know, it's one thing to be a high level defector. It's one thing to have a TV show or a podcast. It's another thing to actually affect change.

Mike Rinder [01:03:14] And the change ultimately will come about through actions of the government, the people that have the authority to change those sort of things. The IRS is the authority that is required to remove the tax exempt status from Scientology.

Mike Rinder [01:03:35] And it isn't going to happen because I say it a thousand times on a podcast or Leah writes a book or anything else. It's going to happen when somebody in the IRS ultimately acts. But as we all know, the process of bringing about societal change is, you know, slow is a nice word to use to describe it.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] Not nice word. Use a not nice word. You can even swear if you want to.

Mike Rinder [01:04:10] Yeah, it's. It's insane. It's just like Mala, it's like, it's like driving through molasses. But I, you say, well, what's it going to take, you know, if someone like you defecting doesn't bring it about? What's it going to take? Well, I still am firmly of the belief that I am the one that will bring this about, that Leah and I will ultimately bring this about.

Mike Rinder [01:04:39] And if this is not the destruction of Scientology, I don't care about destroying Scientology. I care about ending the abuses. Now, do I believe that in order for all the abuses to end that Scientology can continue to exist? I'm not sure that the structural church organization as it is can carry on because there's, there's a lot of factors that go into that, and that's a lot longer discussion, John. But look back at the civil rights movement. Look back at what it took to ultimately pass, you know, the Civil Rights act and how long and how hard and how much blood, sweat and tears went into that fight over what period of time before ultimately someone or someone's had enough influence and brought enough Pressure to bear on elected officials to change the law.

Mike Rinder [01:05:49] And you can, you can. Look, I also sort of use this as an analogy to, you know, 50 years ago, gay rights was not even a term. It began to become talked about in the 60s, probably the 70s, more like. But it was fringe. If you were a pro gay rights activist, you were definitely on the fringe.

Mike Rinder [01:06:22] Ultimately, what happens is these sort of things become mainstreamed. People change their attitude. You change the perception in society of what's right and wrong and what's good and bad and what people should and shouldn't think about things these days. If you are anti gay rights, you are the fringe.

Mike Rinder [01:06:49] You may not be entirely the fringe in very conservative circles, either religious or political circles, but in general in the world, you are now a fringe dweller for being an anti LGBTQ rights. It's changed. And now you start seeing laws changing. Now the law changes so that you can have same sex marriage. Now the law changes. Now we're having laws being enacted that prevent discrimination based on gender. This is a long time coming. But it has been a process that you can watch and see over. History has happened. And I believe that that process is now becoming faster because of the Internet. And I believe that the next thing that we are going to start seeing is we're going to start seeing action by legislators and governmental bodies to put an end to these abuses.

Mike Rinder [01:08:00] And that's where I am. Like, while we continue to educate people, the education of those people includes elected officials. There are more members of Congress and, you know, state government agencies and law enforcement people who now understand that this is a serious problem, abuses in cults than there was 25 years ago. There's more now than there was five years ago. It's become, and just like me too, and these things, you just got to keep going. You got to keep. You got to persist. You've got to keep talking. You got to keep getting the message out. You've got to keep trying to reach those who are in positions of power who can in fact do something about it.

Mike Rinder [01:08:50] And that is my sort of mantra to live by, which is you keep going, you keep speaking. Never be shut up. Never think that you've lost. Never think that it's hopeless. Never think that there is no end in sight. Because the only way that there won't be an end in sight to this stuff is if people like you and I stop and give up.

Mike Rinder [01:09:23] And then it can sink back under the covers and be disappeared into the darkness. And nobody is going to do a thing about it. So don't ever believe that it's hopeless, because it isn't. It can't be. Because every, every change that has happened in society that has prevented the abuse of people has been brought about in this exact same fashion.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Oh my gosh. I'm so inspired, Mike. Okay, I know that we kind of have a hard stop. I could literally talk to you for hours. Let me just make a response back.

Mike Rinder [01:10:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Part of my argument for why Mormons need to be factored into the equation along with Jehovah's Witnesses and Hasidic Jews and, you know, extreme Muslims. The reason why we need to factor in is partly because we have so much power. We have Mitt Romney and Mike Lee sitting in the Senate. We have multiple Senate seats, We have multiple seats in the House of Representatives. We are a major force in the Republican Party.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] And we have not just $3 billion, we have $300 billion and will soon be within 30 years, a trillion dollar church. And I want to add, when you guys are frustrated about the religious freedom arguments that end up in the, in the courts that end up protecting Scientologists, guess what? Our lawyers are working with your lawyers. And our lawyers are even better and more expensive than your lawyers. Our lawyers are leading, leading the movement. Mormon lawyers, Mormon church backed lawyers are leading the movement to solidify religious freedom to protect not only the Mormon Church, not only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but to protect you.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] So when you're frustrated at the legal protections of cults through the religious freedom clauses, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that's bankrolling much, much of that, much of those efforts. So the thing I want to end with is we are at your service. There's a Reddit group right now, ex Mormon Reddit, that has 190 members. We are the largest podcasting ex religious organ, you know, community. We are on TikTok, we're on YouTube, we're on, we're on Reddit. And we want to partner with you and Leah. We want to partner with the Jehovah's Witnesses, we want to partner with everyone because I believe that the total can be much powerful than the sum of the parts if we collaborate together.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] So yes, I will come on your podcast, but also I'll help you with your camera. I'll fly out to where you guys are like, we need to partner together because we can do so much more unified than we will be able to do individually. That's my Little pitch to you. Is that okay? Mike?

Mike Rinder [01:12:31] That's fabulous, John. Thank you so much for having me on and thank you so much for being so willing to hear what I have to say and interested in it. It's always a pleasure to deal with someone who is confronting similar problems, but from a slightly different perspective. And I always learn from these experiences and perhaps we can do this again sometime. I know we've got a lot to talk about. I tend to have difficulty carving out big chunks. Like you like to do very long podcast. Maybe we just have to do like several one hour version because I have a hard time getting that much time carved out of my day.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] Mike, you have an open invitation to come back on Mormon Stories. We are at your service. Really quickly, before you run, please plug any and everything that you want to plug your podcast, any books, any TV shows. How can our listeners support and follow you and Leah and your good work?

Mike Rinder [01:13:38] Well, you can support us by listening to our podcast, which is called Scientology Fair Game Podcast, which is on iHeart but also available on itunes and Spotify and everywhere else you can. If you haven't watched it, watch the the Scientology and the Leah Remini Scientology in the Aftermath, which is now on Netflix. And you know, I have a blog, a daily blog that I do, Mike Rinder's blog.org and that is something that I.

Mike Rinder [01:14:08] It's very much oriented toward the Scientology community. It is not about like sometimes I delve into broader things, but it, it's for Scientologists and you know, unless you, you want to learn a bit about Scientology is probably not for generally for your audience so much. The aftermath definitely is because that's more, that's more other people's stories and hearing their experiences and those experiences inform your own experience. And often we have heard from people who have watched the aftermath that had nothing to do with Scientology. Oh my God. This spoke to me. Oh my God. I had. This gave me, you know, the courage to be able to do something about my own circumstances or whatever.

Mike Rinder [01:15:01] So those are the things that I pitch. That's all I have. I'm happy to have as much moral support as possible. It doesn't really matter about how many clicks or anything like that. It's knowing that there are the. All these people out there who are on the same page. That's what really is important.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] And believe me, one of the things I've noticed is that watching a documentary, if you're in a cult, but you don't know you're in a cult, watching a documentary of another Cult can make you feel safe. It's like, oh, those guys are weird. I want to learn about them. And then as they're watching Going Clear, then they're like, oh, my gosh, that wait, that kind of reminds me of Joseph Smith, and that kind of reminds me of what the church does now. So one of the best things any member of a cult can do is watch a documentary about another cult. And so I just want to give that endorsement to Going Clear to your series with Leah Remini, to your podcast.

John Dehlin [01:16:08] And of the same token, we have many ex Scientologists or Scientologists or Jehovah's Witnesses that listen to Mormon stories, because somehow there's so much power in learning about someone else's cult that helps you wake up to your own. So, Mike Rinder, you have that moral support. You have hundreds of thousands of my listeners that are backing you, that support you, that have been inspired by you. I can't name how many of my listeners have been touched and moved and impacted by what you and Lee have done. Have done. Please pass on to Leah our love and respect and support, and I want you to know that we are literally at your service. If we can ever help you, I hope you'll. You'll reach out to us again.

Mike Rinder [01:16:52] Thanks so much, John. It's been a real pleasure.

Supporting the Podcast and Closing Remarks

John Dehlin [01:16:55] And can people financially support you and Leah? That's the last question. How can they financially support you guys?

Mike Rinder [01:17:01] Well, I, I, you know, you can go. Oh, here's something else. We started a foundation called the Aftermath foundation, and that is to help people leaving Scientology, because, you know, until we had done that and that was. And it's been done by a bunch of people that. That you see on the Aftermath, former Scientology officials. And they. There is a website for the Aftermath foundation, and you can go there and you can volunteer to help, like provide somewhere for people to stay if they're leaving, or a job or money, or you can click on donating, and that's a great, great place to be able to go, and that's where you can support our activities.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Okay? Mike Rinder, you're a legend. We are so grateful for you. Thank you for giving us time on Mormon Stories podcast. Please keep up the great work, and thank you for inspiring us. And please know there are hundreds of thousands of Mormons and ex Mormons that owe you so much, you and Leah and all your colleagues so much for your amazing work. Thank you on behalf of the Mormon people for all you have done.

Mike Rinder [01:18:17] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:18:19] Keep it up.

Mike Rinder [01:18:20] Bye. Bye.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] Okay, thanks, Mike. Hey listeners. Thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. We had over 500 contiguous listeners between YouTube and Facebook. Thanks for your support. Thanks to Mike and Leah. Thanks to Gerardo for his support for Brooklyn Alden for the editing she does.

John Dehlin [01:18:41] Thank you to everyone who supports Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. We literally could not do this without you. Your donations make this possible. We're transparent in our finances. Every dollar goes to fighting ignorance and promoting truth and healing and growth within Mormonism and ex Mormonism. If you support us. Thank you. Less than one out of a thousand of my listeners and viewers donate. If you want to see programs like this continue. I also want to please request that you consider becoming a donor supporter of Mormon Stories Podcast today. You can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button at the top. Become a monthly subscriber.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. Again, 100% tax deductible in the US and 100% of your money will go to fighting ignorance and supporting healing and growth. So please support us if you can. You can also support us by giving us a positive review on the Apple Podcast app on itunes.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] You can also spread the word. You can share this episode on social media, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. You can share it with your communities of people. Please promote what we do also. We love your feedback. So email us@mormonstoriesmail.com follow us follow us on Twitter Follow us become subscribers on YouTube. The more subscribers we have to this podcast to our Facebook page, the more followers and subscribers we have, the more influence we'll have. But mostly just I love this work. I'm grateful for it, I'm grateful for you, and I'm inspired by Mike Rinder. I'm not going to give up until you guys stop supporting.

John Dehlin [01:20:23] You have my commitment that I will spend every last career year, the hour that I have, fighting for you and fighting for people that need our help if you'll just continue supporting us. So it's a pleasure, it's an honor. I love you guys.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] Stay in touch. And we've got much more great episodes for Mormon Stories Podcast in the weeks, months and years ahead. So stay tuned. Thanks for all the support. I love you guys. And we'll see you all very soon again for another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.