Introduction and Guest Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast and a joint broadcast with Kyle Ashworth of Latter Gay Saints. Hey, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:14] Hey, John. How are you? Latter Day Stories. We should know these things.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] My brain, I don't know how I'm surviving this morning.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:21] I will say thank you for calling me by the right last name and not Kyle Hancock today.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] That's why I forgot the name of Latter Days Stories because I was trying to make sure not use the wrong last name.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:34] You have way too many Kyle's in your life, I guess.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:36] So.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:37] Happy to be here. Happy to have our audience join in with the Mormon Stories audience as well. To be able to bring what I think is probably one of our, I don't often say historical, but one of these important topics. When we talk about excommunications, when we talk about the governance of the church, and then mix that in with the real lived experience of the LGBTQ community within or without Mormonism, it makes for a super fascinating opportunity to do, to really dive in and discuss kind of the inner working. So happy to be here, happy to be able to contribute and share the story for sure.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] Thanks, Kyle. Thanks for all the work you do and we welcome your audience for sure. I also want to welcome my. My co host in. In Righteousness and Goodness, Gerardo. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:28] Hey.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:28] Hey, John. Hey, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] You've done a lot of work to prepare for this episode.

Brennen [00:01:32] Thank you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:32] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Do you want to. Gerardo, do you want to kind of introduce it and kind of set it up a little bit?

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:38] Yeah, I can. All right, let's do this.

Douglas [00:01:43] So

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:45] my friends, Brennan and Douglas, so I went to byu, Idaho with Douglas, and he was a convert to the church. We became roommates and really good friends. I never knew he was gay. He was not out to me, but I was out to him.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:03] And then he served a mission. And after his mission, you know, I graduated and married and everything. And then he came out to me and told me that he was gay and he started dating after graduating. He married the love of his life.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:22] And then we are still really good friends. And they recently received a letter for a disciplinary council for his husband, Brennan. And I thought it was kind of like a very interesting case that I'd never heard about. I contacted a bunch of people, like people that had been stake presidents before my dad. I told him about the case, who's a bishop, and they were all kind of struck by how this thing was being handled. So I told Brandon and Douglas that they should record every conversation, including the disciplinary council.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:01] So, you know, they can, they could know like what they were saying versus probably just changing stories later. And that's exactly what happened. You know, they've been gaslighted and after disciplinary council, the story about why they were brought in, about why they decided to excommunicate him, all the story has changed. And it's been quite interesting to listen to the conversations. So they decided they wanted to come on Mormon stories and letter gate stories and tell their story.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] Yeah. And so, so what we have today is an example of the LDS Church, the Mormon Church in 2022, proactively going after a legally same sex married couple to excommunicate them when they were just living their happy, healthy life in a, in a legal, loving marriage. And in, and what, what I think is kind of interesting is they weren't trying to advocate for anything. They weren't even trying to pass off as actively participating devout members. They were just living a quiet, loving life. I mean, that's kind of how I'm seeing it. Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [00:04:21] Well, and I think the other interesting part of the, the story is we should also discuss, I mean, maybe two factors. One, with the latter Gay Stories podcast, we've been following a dozen couples who are in this very situation. And as we can often talk about leadership roulette, bishop roulette, and what it looks like when one bishop will do or move forward with these witch hunts while another bishop will not.

Kyle Ashworth [00:04:47] And as the church clarifies or an area authority comes out and discusses this, how those excommunications or those opportunities of not having these discussions diminish and go away. So there's one aspect of that that we can talk about. The other aspect that we should also talk about is the, the historical side of this. In April of 2019, the church overturned or dismissed dismissed or got rid of the November 2015 policy. And when they got rid of that November 2015 policy, they elder Oaks specifically in that meeting in April of 2019, specifically said we are now going to treat heterosexual and homosexual relationship relationships exactly the same.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:33] And so this is a question of, or a story of leadership roulette, how a bishop or a stake president or a branch president handles same gendered married couples that reside in their boundaries. The second is how do we define treating heterosexual and homosexual couples the same way in the church when we know there are not active witch hunts out there rooting out active or inactive, cohabitating or even polygamous marriages or I mean, look at our Mormon, the mom talk, the Mormon swingers that are happening.

Kyle Ashworth [00:06:09] These are all different, like varieties of, of relationships that are not sanctioned by the church. Where are the witch hunts for those couples as well? So I think this is a multifaceted opportunity to really dive into the subject.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] I love it. So without any further ado, Douglas and Brennan, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. How did that intro feel to hear your lives being summarized and talked about by three people?

Brennen [00:06:36] It felt great.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Do, do you, do you want to begin by maybe giving us a little bit, just a brief background maybe to both of you and, and then you can. Now that we've kind of given the audience kind of an overview of what maybe they can expect. And this is going to be a multi hour interview today because we're going to be playing the audio from at least five different, four or five different conversations because it turns out it's a real mess.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] There wasn't even a lot of coordination apparently between the bishop and the stake president or, or they were trying to walk back and create some uncertainty and doubt about whatever coordination there was. And that's going to be part of what we can. Or we could look at or both. Right. So it's going to be a multi hour episode, but it's for the historical record.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] And so, you know, why don't we have maybe. Brennan, do you want to start and give a little background and then Douglas, you can give some background and then maybe introduce you.

Douglas [00:07:37] You.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] You all can introduce each of the audio clips and we can analyze them.

Brennen [00:07:41] Yeah, no, I def. I definitely want to introduce ourselves because I feel like getting a picture of who we are is going to be important to this. I mean, Kyle said that we're not out here seeking the church. We're not trying to persecute them. We're not trying to go after them. So I, yeah, I really do you want to take the opportunity to introduce ourselves? So my name is Brennan Fan, formerly Brennan Porter. I was born and raised in Meridian, Idaho and grew up there. Went to college, met Doug while I was in college. I met him online and you know, we. He asked me out, which I was very impressed by because usually I'm the one who will initiate and ask somebody out.

Douglas and Brennan's LDS Backgrounds

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:32] Did you grow up lds? Can you talk. Yeah, a little bit about that.

Brennen [00:08:35] Your parents? And so I grew up in the church. I have a huge family. I have 15 brothers and sisters, seven in my family and the nine step siblings. So I guess you're classic, you know, LDS, Mormon family. Was raised going to church, went every Sunday until I was 18. Served a lot of callings. I was teachers, quorum, president, Reese Quorum, you know, advisor to the bishop. I did a lot in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:11] How about the Melchizedek priesthood?

Brennen [00:09:13] I never received the Melchizedek priesthood. I knew by the time that I was graduating high school and when I was turning 18 that I, um, the life that I wanted to lead was not in line with what the church wanted me to do. Um, so I felt like if I was going to be going to get the Melchizedek priesthood, I was just going to be digging myself into a deeper hole that I didn't need to because I didn't feel like I needed to have the Melchizedek priesthood. I didn't plan to go on a mission. I knew that if I were to go on a mission, I would, would make covenants to not pursue a same sex relationship. And then if I were to just come back from my mission and do that, it just seemed nonsensical. So I'm glad I knew before I went on my mission that so kind

John Dehlin [00:10:03] of dodged a bullet a little bit.

Brennen [00:10:05] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:07] I think this is a really important part of his story because. I'm sorry, I'm going to talk a little about my dad because all of these things about how the church works, I've learned them from him.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Who's an active bishop.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:21] Who's an active bishop. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] And he served in stake presidencies.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:24] Yeah, he's served in ST presidencies, mission presidencies. He's always talked about how there's the written rules of the handbook, but then there's also these unwritten rules that are talked about in, when, when stake presidents and bishops are receiving their trainings. And one of these unwritten rules is that someone receiving the Melchizedek priesthood has made like a higher commitment to the church and has like higher covenants.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:54] So before you receive your Melchizedek priesthood, disciplinary councils are rare, are very, very, very rare because the understanding of the Gospels is known to be probably less than someone that, you know, it's an elder or has served a mission. So that, that is part of like, you know, what the bishop should consider when thinking if they should even call for a disciplinary council.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:20] So yeah, I just want to bring that up like he's still a priest, not even an elder. And well, as we were going to know, he, he was called for a disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] And I've heard that a lot that, that you, you really don't go after and excommunicate people if they haven't been through the temple, gotten out their endowments and made that extra level of commitment.

Douglas [00:11:40] Correct.

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:41] And then we can add on this layer that we're not excommunicating based on same sex relationships either, which is the edict from the church coming from April of 2019. So not only you have all of these layers, it's like, how many more gates do we have to spend time unlocking and fiddling with to walk through in order to get to the point where we're holding a membership council if it's not just for this overall witch hunt or seeking someone specifically for a certain topic? And I think that's kind of what I want to focus on and discuss throughout this, this opportunity or this, this episode today.

Kyle Ashworth [00:12:14] Because when we have church leaders that go rogue, that kind of distance themselves from the handbook of instructions. And I, and I get what her order is trying to say here in terms of the spirit of the law and letter of the law, but it's interesting to me that Mormonism has created this fail safe within its doctrine and its policy to say, well, if, if the policy and the doctrine and the handbook isn't sufficient, then the church leader as a judge in Israel. And we'll talk about that later in the episode, the church leader as the judge in Israel has his own personal revelation and, and is able to make those decisions so the church will win regardless of, of which side of, of that policy and handbook or personal revelation discussion we're having.

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:04] Under both circumstances, the church has developed a way for them to be right and correct. And I think that's the problem when we get into the real lived experiences of the LGBTQ community in or out or nuanced within this space in Mormonism. And that's to me, a pivotal, pivotal part of this episode.

Brennen [00:13:23] One more thing I'll add on to this from my story that applies is once I realized that I didn't want to receive the Melchizedek priesthood, it was around that time I knew I didn't want to be attending church either. And we'll go more into depth of this, but by the time that I was called to this disciplinary council, I had been inactive for four years, so I hadn't attended church. And you also moved. I. Yeah, moved. Moved out of state boundaries. This was the first contact I had had from any church authority

Brennen [00:14:04] for four years. Yeah.

Brennen [00:14:07] After not having attended church for four years, there was a conversation three years ago that we'll talk about.

Kyle Ashworth [00:14:14] I think Doug brings up a really important point. We're not talking about a bishop in your current ward, where you live, or your current boundaries. This Is the Bish from years prior in a old ward who's now making this disciplinary council a reality for you. Unbelievable.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] Yeah. And we just got a comment from Jennifer and this, I think this helps drive the point home. Jennifer writes, I've been with my partner for years, not married, never had anyone from the church come at me. So you know how many heterosexual couples out there are. Are living with partners? Is the church hunting down and proactively finding out of ward boundaries and excommunicating heterosexual couples that are single left the church? And so there, I think, Gerardo, part of why you chose the title persecuted by the Mormon Church is this idea of hunting season where the church is like proactively, literally hunting down legally same sex married couples that are just trying to live their own lives.

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:15] You know, and let's not pretend like this is just so new that we haven't been able to implement this policy yet. 4-20-19, April 2020, April 2021, April 2022. So we've had multiple years now for the church to institute this. We will treat heterosexual and homosexual relationships the same in terms of discipline.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:37] Just.

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:38] I know, I know the church slow rolls on a few things, but that seems like a long time for the bishops to get all on the same page.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] Well, same sex marriage was legalized in 2015, so it's been seven years.

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:48] So I'm saying after they changed the policy from homosexual relationships being apostates to we're going to treat them the same. If the argument is, well, okay, I see.

Douglas [00:15:57] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:58] Well, we have hetero. We haven't yet found all the heterosexual cohabitators in our ward yet. I mean, how many years is it going to take you to. We can get funeral potatoes delivered in minutes, but we can't figure out who's cohabitating in our ward, especially the way Mormons talk. So to me, I'm just saying, like, we've given the church plenty of time, if that was the true answer to that question.

Brennen [00:16:21] Yeah. I want to give Doug the opportunity to introduce himself too, because he, he is my other half and he plays a big role in this story too.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Welcome, Doug.

Douglas [00:16:30] Hey. Yeah, good to be here. I was born and raised in Vietnam. I left to go to school at BYUI in 2013, the end of 2013. I was baptized and a convert to the church in early 2013. And so I went to BYU, Idaho and then met Gerardo. And then I think he kind of helped me introduce that part. Went on a mission in Houston, actually, because I know you used to live In Houston, it was a great time, but that's where I kind of figure out my sexuality. And that's when I came back from my mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:08] So you came out to your mission president, right?

Douglas [00:17:10] Yep.

Douglas [00:17:10] That was the very first person that ever said it to that, hey, I think I'm gay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:16] And how did he react?

Douglas [00:17:18] He was super loving. I honestly love both of my mission presidents. You know, I think it's because of them that I was active until I, you know, otherwise I would probably just left the moment I got off my mission. But they helped guide me through and, you know, I stay active for, like, about a year.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:40] Until you graduated? Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:42] As a missionary, what did that do for you in terms of your ability to work and focus on the mission? Now that that big revelation was out, now that not only someone else outside of you knew that you were gay, was there. Was there a mental shift? Was there a feeling of peace? Was there something inside that changed after being able to come out?

Douglas [00:18:03] Yes. So when I came out to my mission president, I thought I was like, I'm going to get sent home. But with his response and how he just kind of was sticking on my side the whole time for the rest of my mission, it just felt like, okay, this is not a horrible thing. I can still be active and being gay, you know, but, you know, as. As I came home from a mission that does not last, you know, that's right.

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:32] And I think this is a good.

Brennen [00:18:33] This is a good point.

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:34] We see this often on the latter gay story side of it. We have missionaries currently serving who pay attention to our podcast and listen to these episodes. And I think maybe this is just a. A case in point that if you are serving a mission currently listening to episodes like this, trying to discover who and what you are, almost all of the cases, unanimously where missionaries were able to come out to their mission presidents have been positive. And I think that should be noted that the church, or at least mission presidents, and maybe it's because.

Kyle Ashworth [00:19:08] Maybe it's because they're close to the missionaries, maybe it's because they have a relationship with them. Maybe it's because they do actually are concerned about care and love, these young elders and sisters and where they're at the grassroots of this topic. They're interested in them. And I think that's important to note that. And in your case, Doug, to be able to have a mission president show forth an extension of love and. And care and concern to you, I think that's super important. And so for missionaries out there who are currently Serving or preparing to serve and are still closeted. My personal recommendation is, if it feels right to you in those president interviews, have those discussions, because I have seen very positive outcomes come from it.

Kyle Ashworth [00:19:49] Not only just the revelation of being able to come out and say, hey, you know, I'm gay, and being forefront with that discussion, but also it does increase the ability to work and maybe move on a little bit. I don't know if that was part of your overall experience as well.

Douglas [00:20:07] Most definitely. I love them both and I, you know, I still do. So what you're saying, I can definitely attest to that.

Kyle Ashworth [00:20:18] And in the, in the era of COVID where missionaries are locked up in their apartments and we're now kind of moving away from that. But a lot of missionary work currently is online. It's on Facebook, it's in the marketplace ad section of these online portals. That's where a lot of these elders and sisters are doing their missionary work. But it's not out knocking doors and it's not out forgetting about who and what you are. So many missionaries went out into the field to say, I'm just going to lose myself in the work, forget about all these things, and hopefully this all goes away. And when they're locked up in an apartment, when they're cooped up and only with the Internet and their thoughts, that becomes really, really disastrous in terms of overall mental health.

Kyle Ashworth [00:20:56] So that's my point in having this discussion about coming out and being more transparent about who and what you are. Often I don't like calling it the coming out. I like calling it the letting in and letting people into your life and seeing you for all of what you are.

Brennen [00:21:11] I want to say that I'll forever be thankful for his stake president for being that person for him, because his mission president being that person for him. Because I know that if the experience wasn't as it didn't go as well as it did, I don't know if we would have met. I don't know if you would have felt comfortable exploring your sexuality after. After the mission. We might not even be married. If the mission president had that kind of, you know, a negative reaction and really made you feel terrible about yourself. So I'm thankful that he was able to be that person.

Brennen [00:21:50] Real for sure.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Well, let's. Let's hear the story, I think. Well, Doug, Doug, do you feel like you shared everything you wanted to share? Okay. We're so grateful that, I mean, we are. We are mindful that anytime you're telling your story very publicly, it comes At a personal cost, emotional cost, stress, potential family, relationships, friendships, just psychological load. And so we appreciate it's not. And it's not your job to educate all of us and it's not your job to be fall on your sword and sacrifice your privacy and your well being so that the church can do better and so that we can all understand what's going on. So I just want to say we don't take that for granted and we really appreciate that, that you're willing to do this because it, I think we, we have a sense for how hard that might be. At least a sense.

Brennen [00:22:49] Thank you for saying that.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Yeah. So thank you. Okay, where should we begin in terms of today's story?

Receiving the Membership Council Letter

Kyle Ashworth [00:22:57] Where is our Genesis 1:1?

Douglas [00:22:59] I can start a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So we're just hanging out in our couch, this one nice Wednesday evening. And then there's a knock on the door and I just. Sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:10] I just want to make this clear. So you had moved out how far away from your homeward where you grew up?

Brennen [00:23:17] So I was raised in Meridian, went to church there. I, I moved to Boise, the capital of Idaho. He's in college, in college, going to Boise State.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:26] And you were living together at the time?

Brennen [00:23:28] Living together. Small remote apartment. It's kind of got like a back entrance. Like you gotta go and find it for sure.

Douglas [00:23:37] Student apartment.

Brennen [00:23:38] Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:39] You never transfer your records from your old ward because he never attended church. You hadn't attended church in four years.

Brennen [00:23:47] So after, after I graduated high school, I did try going to singles ward.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:51] Okay.

Brennen [00:23:51] Because that was. But the record, what you're supposed to do. But my records, we, you know, learned it never moved over because I was only there for two Sundays. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:03] And just so people that are not from here can just get an idea how far is that where you were going to college from your home?

Douglas [00:24:11] Word.

Brennen [00:24:11] It's about a. For me, it's a 20 minute drive. If you're driving, you know, at a normal pace, it's like 30 minutes.

Brennen [00:24:18] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:19] And it's about. And it's a different steak. Yeah, right.

Brennen [00:24:21] Completely different steak, completely different stake. Probably like three stakes over two. I don't know exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:27] So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:28] Okay, continue.

Douglas [00:24:30] Oh, yeah, yeah. Hanging out Wednesday night, knocking on door. And then Brennan comes out and open the door and there's these two men. I was just sitting, I was like, there's two dudes, you know, soliciting at an apartment complex.

Brennen [00:24:45] Yeah, this is 8:30 at night.

Douglas [00:24:47] That was weird. And then they deliver a letter. I heard, I knew that they were from church, because they were talking, we're from so and so board.

Brennen [00:24:56] And then I rec. I recognized one of them. The other I didn't recognize, but they introduced themselves and they, I asked, you know. Well, I was like, well, you drive. I, I actually said, well, you drive. You drove all the way across town. You know, I think I said, I think I said, thank you for taking the time. Which I was trying to be polite, but I, I took the letter and I, I started opening it, like, right

Douglas [00:25:23] in front of them.

Brennen [00:25:24] Yeah. And they kind of had this look like, oh, maybe we should like, go away now, you know, before he starts reading it. And I saw the, the, the line which said, you're being called to a membership disciplinary council on the basis of your conduct related to same sex marriage. And so I, I didn't say anything to them. I, I let them go and, and then we closed the door and kind of looked at each other and I was like, babe, you need to, you know, you need to come and look at this.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Did they make faces? Was there any verbal reaction from them? Were they just standing awkwardly as you read it?

Brennen [00:26:01] Oh, so, So I was opening the letter. I had briefly skimmed it, but before I went to, you know, called Doug over, I let them go. So they, so they headed out and we read it and it took. We talked for a little bit about, like, what it meant, and I was like, what, you know, what is a membership council? Because I'd heard of disciplinary councils before, but I didn't know if the membership council was the same thing. So we talked about it, and it took us a, A, a bit of conversation to figure out, like, the, the weight and the immensity of, like, what this meant.

Douglas [00:26:35] Right.

Brennen [00:26:36] And so we were like, oh, my gosh, we need to call her auto right away.

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:42] So, so the two people who came to your door, I'm, I'm assuming these are members of the bishopric?

Brennen [00:26:48] They are, yes. First, and, I don't know, it was the ward clerk and then the second counselor, I believe.

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:56] But not the bishop himself?

Brennen [00:26:58] No, no, not the bishop or anyone

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:59] that you even knew?

Brennen [00:27:01] I recognized one of them, but I had no idea who he was. Like, I couldn't put a name to him.

Brennen [00:27:07] So.

Kyle Ashworth [00:27:07] And for those who are unfamiliar with the way these warden stake boundaries work, this is like equivalent of someone crossing state lines in order to find you. It's like jumping on an airplane and flying to, from Utah to Nevada in order to go deliver this letter. When, when you're in different stakes, that is a completely different jurisdiction. A Stake is like a diocese, so it's this different arena, different area that you're completely unfamiliar with. And. And they really are out of their territory.

Douglas [00:27:38] They're.

Kyle Ashworth [00:27:38] They're out of their location. And so you hop on a. Hop on an airplane, jump in a car and drive to go find somebody to deliver this letter. People they've likely never met before. They've probably never met you, Brennan, or at least the relationship isn't there. So I just think this is fascinating. This is so strange, the way this starts to unfold.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Yeah.

Douglas [00:27:59] Because. And Brennan was so confused, too, of how they got the address, because we'd never give this new address. It was not in the church record or anywhere to be found, is my immediate reaction.

Brennen [00:28:11] I was like, there's no way that they would have been able to know this.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:14] And I.

Brennen [00:28:15] So that night I went to LDS Tools and I looked at the address. It wasn't the address that they had appeared to us at the. Our apartment was not in LDS Tools. And so I was so confused. I was like, how would they have gotten it?

Kyle Ashworth [00:28:29] Which. Which address was in LDS Tools?

Brennen [00:28:31] It was, it was, it was. It was an old address, but I changed the house numbers because I just got this feeling that I didn't want it to be accurate. I. I grew up in a conspiracy theorist family, so like anti government kind of thing. So I was like, maybe I shouldn't put my actual address. So I switched it around to an address that I, you know, technically wasn't living at.

Douglas [00:28:52] But it was close.

Brennen [00:28:53] It was, it was. Yeah, it was on the same street. It would have been the same zip code, same ward and stake boundaries, but. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:01] So how did they. Wasn't one of your first questions. How did they find your actual address?

Brennen [00:29:07] Yeah, And I can't remember if it was that night or not, but I. Yeah, I called my older sister because usually when stuff goes down in our family, we call. I. Most of us will call our. This older sister. She's like the go to for, like, you know, I don't know if we can curse on podcasts, but stuff's going down.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] Be natural.

Brennen [00:29:34] Yeah, shit's going down. Um, and so I called her.

Kyle Ashworth [00:29:38] I am out of here. I cannot handle.

Brennen [00:29:42] Um, and I called her and I told her that I had received this letter. And I was like, my sister, I was like, I. I don't know how they got this and address. I. I don't know how they got this address. And I. I got scared because the only way that they would have been able to. The only Con. The person of contact that would have my address that's near them is my mom who still attends that ward. And so I told her and I was like, I'm really scared that mom like threw me under the bus, you know, that she knew what was going on and knew that they were going to hold this council and still gave them the address.

Brennen [00:30:17] You know, that, that was something that was really scary to me because we're going to be having our wedding reception in her, in my parents backyard. And so it was, it created this like this dichotomy and dissonance of like it didn't make, it wouldn't have made sense. But I wasn't 100 sure if she would have done it, you know, and it was really scary.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:41] So did you ask her?

Brennen [00:30:43] Eventually, yeah, I, I tried to call her that night but it was too late. So I called her the next day and I was like, mom, so I got this letter and, and there's no way that they would have been able to get my address to, you know, deliver this to us. Do you know, did you, did you give them my address? And she was like, I did. And I was like, so did you know anything? And she's like, no, I had no idea. She told me that she, she had thought they were coming to update records, they were coming to update my membership, you know, as I would think that is routine. But she had no idea that it was for the reason of the council.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:29] And how long before you received the letter had she given them your address?

Brennen [00:31:34] So we got the, the letter on May, May 4th. May 4th on a Wednesday. May 4th on a Wednesday of 2022. They had gotten the address three days prior that Sunday, May 1st. So yeah, it's pretty soon after I'm

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:53] telling you, the church is now finally running at lightning speed when it comes to something they really want to do.

Douglas [00:31:58] Right?

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Yeah.

Douglas [00:32:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] And if it's okay, do you mind if I ask a question from one of the. It's, it's not a fun question. It's, it's probably an insulting question, but I want to get really clear on this point before we spend time talking about the disciplinary council. Of course, our residential believer viewer, Dan Hardy, and I'm just going to summarize what he basically is saying. He's saying is you didn't want to advance in the priesthood, you didn't go on a mission, you weren't active in the church, you didn't want to be a member. You probably knew the church wasn't crazy about same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] And you got same sex married anyway. Why do you even care that they would hold disciplinary council at all? And I guess Dan would probably say, why should anyone care? You didn't really want to be a member anyway. I have, I want to respond very strongly, but I don't want to, I don't want to be the first to respond. So do you have a response? And then I'll let Kyle and Gerardo, if they want to add something, to

Brennen [00:32:59] clarify why we cared enough about the membership council to attend. Is that your question?

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:03] Yeah. Given that you'd already gotten rid of your association with the church in terms of activity levels. So why, why not just fall over and let the church get what they want when you weren't even a believer or all in like Dan and others? So why is it that you're different?

Brennen [00:33:22] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:22] Why, why put the Church on such a pedestal?

John Dehlin [00:33:24] I think it's like, why, why do you care even if the church excommunicated you? And why should anyone else care that the church excommunicated you? I think those are the two answers.

Brennen [00:33:33] Yeah. I'll just say right now, I, I was, before, before receiving this letter, I was comfortable going on my own time to remove my records, to, you know, meet with the bishop, send a letter in to remove my records. But the fact that I was sought out and, and found for this, that all this work was done to find me, it made me feel like I needed to respond in some way or it's like I was called to court. So I'm going to go to court, you know, to kind of state my case, because if, if they were going to take the time to, I was going to, to see it through.

Brennen [00:34:13] And I think people should care about this because this is evidence that the, the church, even though they say that they're not, and they're not going to go after same sex married couples that they are. And so if I, if I could go in there and get proof and show that, then I, I feel like I can help other gay people who might be at risk for being called to a council be aware of it so they can know going in or know what to do. And so my, my real thing is to, to make sure that other gay couples or gay people cannot be persecuted by the Church.

Douglas [00:34:56] They know that this is happening.

Brennen [00:34:57] Yeah. And so. Oh, sorry.

Douglas [00:34:59] Yeah. Because I mean, a lot of some, I mean, some of my friends, they're bishops that, yeah, we'll welcome you. And to them they think, oh, all bishops are like that, you know, but

Brennen [00:35:11] this is also Kind of our way of holding the church accountable, because it's. It seems like whether they do this in the political sense, they make countless attempts to try to remove themselves from being held accountable from anything. They do everything in their power to make sure nobody can fault them for what they do inside disciplinary councils, inside the church, whatever they do, because it's a religious exemption and because they're a religious organization, they are completely absolved from anybody, you know, saying that they're wrong or, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:47] And just to be clear, too, you were not intending to go public about your story, about the conversations up. Your decision to come out publicly about it was just recently made from the last conversation with you had with the state president.

Kyle Ashworth [00:36:00] Last ambition.

Brennen [00:36:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:01] And you were recording all this, but I remember talking to you guys and you were still not sure if you wanted to talk about it.

Brennen [00:36:08] Yeah, I remember you asking us, because I think you understood kind of the weight of this. Like, and especially after the disciplinary counselor, you're like, this. This is, like, worthy of a. Of a podcast. Like, people should know this already at this point. But even. Even at that point, I was like, I. I don't know, because I didn't. I didn't want to make this a personal vendetta against my bishop and stake president.

Brennen [00:36:36] You knew him.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:36] Yes. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Brennen [00:36:38] I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I didn't. I wasn't convinced fully of all these atrocities. The gaslighting was getting to me, but I wasn't convinced of everything until the last meeting that we just had last Sunday.

Douglas [00:36:52] So.

Kyle Ashworth [00:36:53] And I've interviewed hundreds and hundreds of Latter Day Saints who are still trying to make the church work or feeling some level of nuance. And I think the thing that is often lost in this part of the discussion from believers, active, Orthodox, traditional Latter Day Saints, is that they believe this is their church, that they're operating the church the orthodox way, because that's the way the church should be running. But for so many of these gay Latter Day Saints, LGBTQ Latter Day Saints, it's their church, too. And even though they identify as. As queer, somewhere along the spectrum, this is their church, too. This is their community.

Kyle Ashworth [00:37:33] This is their belief. This is their support system. This is their sense of community. This is their family. This is their tradition. This is their history. These are all things that are intrinsic to them as well. And so it isn't just Dan's church isn't. Isn't just an active Latter Day Saints church. It is the church that belongs in many different factions and facets and pieces to all of us. And isn't that the. The part of being Zion? Isn't that what the church is. Is trying to. To promote is this idea of inclusion of all and that many. I mean, the code of the, The. The coat of colors, this.

Kyle Ashworth [00:38:06] This rainbow pattern of this tapestry of many voices. And, and the church is calling it the chorus. The. The church really needs a variety of voices in order to make the choir work. And if we isolate, as as many Latter Day Saints believe, we isolate these factions that don't look like us, don't act like us, don't speak like us, if we isolate them out of the church, and, and your bishop brought this up in, in your membership council, and I want to talk about it a little later. But if we get rid of all the voices that are different, then. Then we have an echo chamber and we have lost the revelatory power of what the church claims it is.

Kyle Ashworth [00:38:44] And, And I think that is part of this discussion that is so often lost by traditional, conservative, Orthodox Latter Day Saints who just say, look, you don't look, talk, act or, or believe like me. Therefore, get out and, and just dismiss us and let us continue believing the way we believe. But then I say, doesn't that violate an article of faith? Don't we allow all people the opportunity to worship how, when, where, or what they may? And it's just this constant circle of dissonance.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] And then. Go ahead.

Brennen [00:39:15] I was going to say. I was just going to lead into the first audio file, but.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] Oh, no, I'll just trail and just say one quick thing. Just. I think it's. I'll be echoing a bit, but I think it's important for LGBTQ Latter Day Saints to understand that if they try to remain active and faithful in the church, that they're not. They're not safe. That if they have the wrong bishop or the wrong stake president, they're gonna. They're gonna be hunted and excommunicated in a barbaric way. That's number one. So they're not safe. Number two is the church is. You know, it's a. It's a half trillion dollar organization at this point. Hundreds of billions of dollars. They're great at collecting tithing.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] They're great at defending people. You know, the sexual predators. You know, they're really good at doing what they need to do when they care about it, but they are. This, this whole process that we're going to show shows how careless and thoughtless and irresponsible they have been with, with this issue of legal same, same sex marriage and how they're treating you. And then the final thing that I just want to say is this is a, this is, you know, the church, through its PR, wants to give the impression that the church loves gay people, that the church is friends with David Archuleta, that the church cares about LGBTQ people, that they're not discriminatory.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] They want to make all this press about how they collaborate with LGBT people to make laws that don't discriminate. They want that public perception. But behind the scenes they're quietly hunting down and excommunicating people. And I just want to have, I want to ask you all the viewers to listen to the bishop and the stake president and the system that they've been put in, because we're about systems, not people.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Look about the, the system that the bishop and the stake president been put in and just ask yourself, would Jesus, would the Prince of Peace, would Jesus hunt down and excommunicate to people for getting legally same sex married and being in love?

Kyle Ashworth [00:41:25] That's a great point, John, because I think at the end of the day, every time I publish one of these excommunication stories and we bring up this topic, the comments that are, that are most prolific and duplicate are where is Christ in this? Where is Christ in this? And I think that's a valid question when you listen to this say where. And in terms of Mormonism, the baptismal covenants of mourning with those that mourn and comforting those in need of comfort. Where is the mourning? Where is the comfort? Where is Christ in all of this?

Brennen [00:41:57] Great.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:58] Something that's gonna, it's really interesting about this case too is that Brennan, being a priest, not an elder, was sought out for this. And Douglas, who has served a mission, has done temple covenants, but his records just happen to be in a different word, which by the way, his leaders know that he's married to, to Brennan. Is that right? Yeah, he was not sought out. So it just shows the bishop roulette that it's just.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:26] How, how, how much like depends on how homophobic your bishop is, I guess. And how, how you're gonna, being, being

Brennen [00:42:34] a, being a church attending gay person, risk you're, by attending church, you're, you're risking the muskets. Yeah.

Douglas [00:42:42] It's kind of so that the Holy Spirit doesn't work all the time to all the bishops.

Brennen [00:42:48] Not consistent.

Kyle Ashworth [00:42:49] And that's a, that's a really valid concern because a lot of people will Say, well, I have a higher chance of being excommunicated or. Or found if I'm attending church actively. Therefore, they try to worship on their own. And I think Covid gave a lot of Latter Day Saints, some. Some latitude being able to still worship how, where, when and what they may because it was home church or zoom church. But that really isn't. Yeah, that really isn't the case anymore. The church is now excommunicating for same gender relationships or same gender marriage, whether you're active or inactive. And then I think that's another ounce of this that is so mind boggling to me.

Brennen [00:43:28] I want to be able to really get into this because a lot of, a lot of these topics we're gonna come over in these.

Douglas [00:43:33] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] Let's do it.

Reading the Official Council Letter Aloud

Brennen [00:43:35] Alrighty. So once I'd received the letter and had read it, a lot of questions had come to my mind.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:42] We have a slide with the letter

Douglas [00:43:43] if you just wanna.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:44] Yeah, people can read it. We're not probably gonna read it.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] So these are the dates for what we're going to be covering. So here's the actual letter. Is that the letter?

Brennen [00:43:53] Yes, it is.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:54] Okay.

Brennen [00:43:54] So I'm reading this letter and a lot of questions are coming to my mind about what this is about. Why now should we read. I can bring. Yeah, we can. Yeah, read it real quick.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] All right. May 3, 2022, to Brennan from Bishop. Dear Brennan, the bishopric is holding a membership council in your behalf. The council will be held on May 26th at 8:30pm at the chapel. The council will consider your conduct related to church policy on same sex marriage. You are invited to attend the council to give your response. You may provide written statements from persons who could provide relevant information.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] You may invite such persons to speak to the council in your behalf. If approved in advance by the bishopric upon arrival, please be seated in the chairs outside of the Bishop's offices on the whatever side of the building. Anyone who attends must be willing to comply with the respectful nature of the council, including its procedures and confidentiality. Legal counsel and supporters beyond those referred to above may not be President Brennan. I loved working with you in the Aaronic Priesthood Quorum several years ago. While some of our present values may differ, I am hopeful that we can find mutual respect, beliefs and understanding. Respectfully, Bishop so and so you can

Brennen [00:45:14] tell just by reading it that the. The. The first three paragraphs are auto generated. Yeah, the only thing that the bishop actually wrote directly to me was the last one and he spelled my name wrong.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] If You B R E N N

Brennen [00:45:28] A N A N. Which it's en. Okay, so that's how you can tell that's where he started. But, you know, adding in that, that personal connection and factor to, you know, hope, I guess in his mind to make me feel comfortable.

Kyle Ashworth [00:45:42] See, for those of us who serve missions, we call this build relationships of trust. What we're doing is were creating this friendship for people that don't.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:50] Don't know better, or members that haven't had enough experiences with. With the church and its leaders. They don't notice this kind of. I remember Douglas calling me even after this disciplinary council or right before, telling him, Telling me like that Brennan was falling for, you know, the, the love and whatever nice words the bishop was telling him, while at the same time the bishop's telling him, we're going to excommunicate you.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Yeah. So I'm just dying to ask the bishop, what values do you are. Are different. You have different values.

Brennen [00:46:26] Are you subscribing to.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Yeah, like you're Brendan. I assume your values are just like committed love, right? Legal. Legal. Committed love. Are those your values?

Brennen [00:46:35] Yeah.

Brennen [00:46:35] And I, I. Sorry. I trust the people in my life who show me love and who show me compassion. And so to me, the bishop and the stake president before have both showed me that, and I know that. And that's what was, you know, kind of put me off on not realizing what was happening around me because I trusted them for, you know, the goodness that they had showed me in the past. So anyway, I had all these questions from the letter, and so I decided to call the bishop to answer all these questions. And we'll just hear from it now.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] So this is the recording of your first conversation with your bishop after receiving the letter, is that right?

Brennen [00:47:21] It's a phone call.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] Yeah.

Douglas [00:47:22] And he called the bishop the same night that we got the letter.

Brennen [00:47:26] Same night, like two hours later.

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:29] He probably wasn't able to get his passport approved to make it over to your apartment. That's. I'm. I'm just trying to give the bishop the benefit of the doubt here.

Brennen [00:47:36] Exactly. And we were for a long time.

Playing the Membership Council Recording

Guest [00:47:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] All right, so here's that recording. Okay. May. And this is May 4th, 2020. Here we go.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:47:49] I got your letter from Brother.

Video Clip 1 [00:47:54] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:47:55] Yeah, yeah. And Brother, about the, the membership council. Yeah, it looks like you wrote it yesterday. And. Yeah, I guess I had a couple questions.

Video Clip 1 [00:48:14] So

Video Clip 1 [00:48:16] I'm not really sure what exactly a full membership council is. I think it kind of explains. Talks about, you know, inviting persons to Also be at the council. So, yeah, I guess I was curious

Video Clip 1 [00:48:32] what the membership council is.

Video Clip 1 [00:48:34] And then, you know, I. I have people that I would like to bring, but I wanted to talk to you about it.

Video Clip 1 [00:48:39] Sure. Okay. And that's one that. So with these types of things, it's. Anytime there's. If someone has. And I know that you and I have already talked about some of this before, anytime someone has something that may put what they do at odds with kind of those certain standards in the church, then we hold a membership council with that. It usually is one of those things where sometimes people come and say, you know what? I don't really want to be a member of the church anymore. Or sometimes you say, I do want to be a member of the church.

Video Clip 1 [00:49:08] And so it's really one of those things where we look at. We look at that, and then there's really kind of three possible outcomes with it. Sometimes people, after a membership council, they'll just remain in good standing, you know, no change. Sometimes it can be.

Video Clip 1 [00:49:22] They can have a withdrawal of membership where they're no longer a member of the church. And then sometimes there can be some formal discipline, which is, you know, maybe they say, well, for a year, it changes things. And so really, this is a chance to come in and say, you know, this is where I am. So it gives you an opportunity to say, this is where I am. This is kind of what I'm thinking in the case of kind of what things are going on right now. It might be one of those, you know, I'm not planning on changing any of the things that I'm doing right now.

Video Clip 1 [00:49:52] I'm happy with where I am. And. And that's one where it kind of gives you an opportunity to say, hey, this is really what. What I'm looking to do. And I don't really plan on changing anything, or I do plan on changing things. And so it's really kind of that. That type of a thing in saying that. There are some people say, you know, I don't really want to come into it. So do you have to come to. The answer to that is no. But I always like to give you a chance to come and say, hey, this is where I am personally. And so gives you an opportunity to just kind of talk about all of that.

Video Clip 1 [00:50:22] Right.

Video Clip 1 [00:50:25] I. I guess I've had intentions of kind of clearing or clarifying my relationship with the church. I just haven't really gotten around to it. And, yeah, so I think I. I think I will come in for the. For the council. I Appreciate you explaining more about it and kind of what comes of it and, you know, what's happened before and what people do and. Yeah, so with. With coming to the council. I mean, because it's. It's. It's really in relationship to my relationship with Doug. Um, I mean, as. As my. My husband, because we're married. Is it okay if. If he's there as well.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:13] He can certainly come. Yep. Okay. And that's. That's one where. With that same type thing, you know, he's welcome to come. We just. One thing that I like people to know is these things are all done confidentially. Right. So sometimes I don't know if this is one of your questions. People might say, are you gonna be talking to my mom about it? The answer is no. You know, that's one. I don't talk to anybody about it. I don't talk to my spouse about it. I just talk with. With you. The other members of the bishopric are there. It's a confidential thing.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:41] It's one that.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:43] It's really kind of nobody else's business. It's really just. Just you. And then, you know, Doug's welcome to come too.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:49] Okay, that's.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:51] Yeah, that's good to hear.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:54] Because, yeah, for me, he is. He's my other half.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] I'm pausing for just a second because I think Doug wanted to speak.

Douglas [00:52:00] Yeah, when I heard this part, I felt like, okay, he. He said I could come, but right after that, he said, but usually for these kind of things, you don't talk to your spouse yet. So, like, it's kind of discouraging that I come, but I guess because Brennan wanted to bring me, he could bring me.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Was he saying that he doesn't talk to his own spouse about it?

Douglas [00:52:21] Yeah, these are. These are the kind of things that even I wouldn't talk to my spouse or my mom about it.

Brennen [00:52:25] It's an interesting thing why he followed up with that, because later on, his reasoning for allowing Doug to be there was so that I could feel more comfortable. But he doesn't say any of that in this call. He only says that when we're, you know, going after him.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:39] And.

Brennen [00:52:40] Because it seemed. Anyway, but he said that it's because he want. He wanted me to feel comfortable, but instead he wants to say, well, we need to keep this confidential. That's really, you know, the precaution. And you coming. It's not because we want you to feel comfortable. We just, you know, you can be there. Just you need to not, you know, keep it between you two.

Douglas [00:53:02] Basically and the reason I brought this up because I know that with these kind of council, a lot of time it's like five, four men's in a room that are church leaders and then the one person being, you know, ass and that one person scary has no, you know, like it's based on that one person word. So I feel like that's a lot reason why a lot of people don't come out about excommunication because it's their own word. No one else was there to testify. And that's really why, why I want to record all these things. Because we come back and it's completely different than why the feelings we were

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:38] there, you know, well, something that maybe people. We haven't talked about this at all, but you were brought in for same sex marriage and one. And after you started pointing out the policy and when the hat book said the story changed and they started saying that you were coming in for apostasy.

Kyle Ashworth [00:53:57] And that's the. To me this is the dun, dun, dun moment because once they realized, because your letter was specific, it specifically said because of same sex marriage. So it wasn't. Had nothing to do with apostasy. Had nothing to do with. It was once they realized, and we'll get to this point as once they realized that heterosexual relationships and homosexual relationships will be treated the same way. And during this course of time, I know there was some back channel discussions with leadership to the stake president and the bishop. And then they said, oh no, we have got to figure out something. We have to shift this. The narrative must change because this isn't going to work anymore. And I think that's another fascinating part of this. But there is no, there is no love like Mormon hate sometimes. And this is just to me fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] All right, should we, should we keep going?

Brennen [00:54:51] Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] All right,

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:54:56] I understand that.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:57] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:58] Well, yeah, the only other thing I was curious about because I don't really have anybody else that I would, I don't think I would want there or need to be there. It says, it says in your letter that I, I said I can, I can provide written statements from persons who could provide relevant information. What, what kind of relevant information are we like are, are we, are we talking about?

Video Clip 2 [00:55:29] Sure. So Brandon, that's. Some of those things are kind of a formality where sometimes people will say someone may make an accusation where someone says I never did that. And so I want people to be there that can confirm and you know, that it never happened. And some of those people can't Be present. So they'll say, well, I can't be there, but I can send in some written testimony. So if you want an example, someone can say, hey, I.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:52] I think that that person over there had an affair with someone. And no, I didn't. And so sometimes again, in those types of situations, people would want to come in and say, hey, listen, this is. But it's. Most of the time that's really not an issue. So.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:07] But these are more. It's more one of those. If it was a, you know, someone saying, hey, I actually never did that, or I did, or, you know, there were extenuating circumstances. Right.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:22] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:22] If.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:23] If there was something that I wanted to bring written wise, would.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:26] Would I.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:27] Would I just like. Is that for reference or. Or would I read that?

Video Clip 2 [00:56:31] Would it be okay for me to read it?

Video Clip 2 [00:56:33] Sure.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:33] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:36] I guess. I mean, I. I've already had the intention of kind of clarifying things, but I was curious where. What the origin of this was like, I guess. Why now?

Video Clip 2 [00:56:52] Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. So it's one that I had a conversation with the state president and I knew I was supposed to for a while, but I quite frankly didn't really want to. It's one that, you know, I've got that internal conflict. I loved working with you and young men's. In fact, I can still remember some things that you said. I don't know if you remember this, but there was a youth conference one time where you stood up and people had been nice. And I remember you saying, you know, I sometimes wonder if everyone here would be friends with me if my dad had died. And I thought, I don't think Brandon realizes how. How much people dislike being around him. Do you remember saying that?

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Okay, Brendan, did you want to say something there?

Brennen [00:57:33] Yeah. So after Bishop had told me this, that he had one, had an internal conflict himself about this topic is what he said being topic being same sex marriage. That he had an internal conflict. And then, you know, he followed up by kind of a personal anecdote that we had had together growing up. To me, that, that honestly, it made me feel like he was more on my side than anything. You know, if he had been having a personal conflict, then maybe he himself was thinking that, you know, this council shouldn't have been called. I was thinking that maybe it wasn't him. It wasn't him, the one who had organized or called this council.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] What I heard is that the stake president maybe told him to do this. That's what I. That's how I Interpreted that.

Brennen [00:58:17] That's what I was just saying. Suspecting as well.

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:20] So, yeah, I think it sounded very clear. He received instructions from somewhere else. And I think to. To not believe that it doesn't make a lot of sense because then he starts bringing in distant memories. Oh, I loved working with you. And young men's.

Douglas [00:58:34] You were.

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:34] And so he starts building this.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:35] How about his dad passing away?

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:37] Yeah. Bringing in all of these emotions and, and drawing you and saying, I love, like, I love you and I'm connected to you and I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to hurt you because we have so many ties together and we've had such history together. So just know that this isn't me. This is, this is just the, the handbook or the stake president or my, my hands are just tied. I can't do anything other than follow what my, my other leaders are telling me to do.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] There's a quote I once heard by Margaret Toscano, who is excommunicated for apostasy, and she recorded her reactions to her excommunication on a PBS series called the Mormons. And it's a bit of a graphic term, but this is, I'm quoting her. She described excommunication as being raped by Care Bears. In other words, it's a violent act that's wrapped in kind of pseudo love. And I apologize for the graphicness of Margaret Toscano's quote, but I think what we're touching on is how confusing it might be to say, I'm hunting you, I'm coming after you. I'm about to do something very psychologically violent to you, but I really love you. And, and I remember when we were. You were younger and your dad passed away. I'm wondering how that was for you.

Brennen [00:59:56] I mean, convinced me and I. It was. All of this was building up just to be torn down later. I really, I really was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt for these reasons, because I truly believe that they had, or in this case right now, the bishop had good intentions and he wasn't out to get me, but it's. But, you know, at the same time, it still felt like I was being sought out, but I was like, oh, it wasn't him. You know, maybe this, this. He's following directions and that's why I was sought out, you know, and so

John Dehlin [01:00:33] almost good cop, bad cop, right?

Brennen [01:00:35] Yeah. Yeah.

Brennen [01:00:36] So.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:37] And then the overall Mormon vernacular has changed over the years. We used to call these. Well, not only. We call them membership councils now, they were called disciplinary councils. They were previous to that church courts. There was even the vernacular court of love.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:52] And so that, I think that brings into better perspective the Care Bear comment, how there really is this shift in this, the Mormon language to try to draw attention away from the barbaric nature of excommunication and especially in terms of a church that is all for forgiveness and repentance and striving to be your very best, but also acknowledging that perfection does not exist within Mormonism. But then to excommunicate somebody who is not perfect just. Again, this is, this is a circular merry go round again of problems. This is problematic for the church because

John Dehlin [01:01:26] they're, they're active and inactive Mormons who, Who violate the word of wisdom, who drink, who smoke, who do illegal drugs, that are in. That are unfaithful, that are married, you know, in relationships, domesticated partners without marriage. All. You know, there are child molesters, there are rapists, there are spouse abusers. Hundreds of thousands of these people collectively that the church doesn't go after. That the church leaves completely alone, doesn't even try to go after them. And that's, that's part of.

Brennen [01:02:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Why this is.

Brennen [01:02:01] And that'll definitely come up again.

Kyle Ashworth [01:02:02] Yeah. And now we have people who are crossing board boundaries, state boundaries, to find you who's inactive, not participating in church. The, the second point that I wanted to bring up too is that often an active Latter Day Saint, orthodox believing Latter Day Saint will say, well, the excommunication process helps release this person from their covenants. They made these covenants. Therefore excommunication is a good thing. These membership councils where we take away their, their membership, releases them from all of these obligations that they had.

Kyle Ashworth [01:02:31] Well, what happens if you're an Aaronic priesthood holder who has not made covenants in the temple, who has not endowed, as is your case here. Where is the logic in that? Because that is, that is probably the most used excuse that's thrown at me as I highlight these, these LGBTQX communications throughout Mormonism is the church is doing this out of love for their covenant. They're protecting them from the eternities by releasing them from their covenant. So they are not found guilty of that.

John Dehlin [01:02:59] But you hadn't been to the temple.

Brennen [01:03:01] No. So where are my responsibilities as a covenant? Keeping your cup.

Kyle Ashworth [01:03:05] Your covenants at this point are to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those in need of comfort.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] Those are the baptismal covenant.

Kyle Ashworth [01:03:10] That is your baptismal covenant.

Brennen [01:03:12] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Okay. Should we keep going?

Brennen [01:03:15] Yeah, let's keep going.

Guest [01:03:16] All Right.

Brennen [01:03:20] I was probably very emotional at the time, but I do remember saying something along those lines.

Guest [01:03:24] Yeah. Anyway, I just think that. So it's kind of that same thing. The. The other was just. I. I'm not really on Facebook or most social media things, and so I heard that you had. That you got married to Doug, and this one where from that one standpoint, I say congratulations. Right. It does put things at odds with church standards there. But that was kind of the other. The other end of it. I actually don't know when you got married.

Brennen [01:03:48] Yeah, Doug and I got married last

Brennen [01:03:50] year on April 14th. April 14th, 2021.

Douglas [01:03:54] Yeah.

Brennen [01:03:54] So it's been. Yeah.

Brennen [01:03:56] A year.

Guest [01:03:57] Yeah. Okay, very nice.

Brennen [01:03:59] Well, I. If there's anything else that I can

Brennen [01:04:02] be doing until the 20th, 6, feel

Brennen [01:04:05] free to text me or call me.

Brennen [01:04:06] Okay.

Guest [01:04:07] Okay. And vice versa. It's the same, you know, if you. Sometimes people are hesitant to call, think, oh, I'm afraid that because I work nights, they're afraid I'll be sleeping today. I'll just, you know, mute my phone. I just put it on. Do not disturb me. So feel free to call anytime.

Brennen [01:04:20] Sounds good. All right.

Guest [01:04:21] Okay.

Brennen [01:04:22] I will talk to you later then.

Guest [01:04:24] Okay.

Douglas [01:04:24] All right.

Brennen [01:04:24] Have a good night care.

Guest [01:04:25] Bye.

Brennen [01:04:26] I'm not sure if we should hold off on talking about that topic of knowing when we were married until later,

Kyle Ashworth [01:04:32] because I was going to say, I don't want to be Matlock or Perry Mason, that one in the room, but I just want to say May 4th was the date of this conversation.

Douglas [01:04:40] Just.

Kyle Ashworth [01:04:40] Just remember, May 4th, 2022, was when this conversation was had with the bishop. And just for the audience, what. When were you married again?

Brennen [01:04:48] We got married April 14th of 2021.

Kyle Ashworth [01:04:51] So you'd been married a year and a month, and you had this conversation on May 4, 2022, and your bishop, you just informed your bishop on May 4, 2022, that you were married. And he just found out via a social media post.

Douglas [01:05:03] Yeah, the. The social media post that he would have been talking about was the one I made in January of this year of 2022, saying that we got married publicly to our friends and families and invite them to a reception this summer.

Kyle Ashworth [01:05:19] And on May 4, 2022, a conversation with your bishop, he's now saying, I just read a social media post, said that you were married.

Brennen [01:05:26] He even said that he didn't know when we got married.

Douglas [01:05:29] That's right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:29] So I just.

Kyle Ashworth [01:05:30] I mean, just. I'm just throwing that out there.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:31] Just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:32] But that's really important for People to keep in mind that the bishop ask him about it. The bishop founds out about the marriage through a Facebook post that was not even post that. The Facebook post was not even made at the time of the marriage, was made eight months after in January. And. And the bishop said that he had just found out recently about it. That's very important via social media. That story is going to change later.

Kyle Ashworth [01:05:56] So we know for sure if, if you made the public post In January of 2022, we know for sure that is the, the very earliest date the bishop could have found out that you were married.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:06] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:06] Because he by his own admission says, I found out via social media that you had just gotten married. And he does offer congratulations. I mean it seemed wildly sincere.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:15] So he, he offered that. Nice congratulatory.

Brennen [01:06:18] Yeah. Well, in some ways I would congratulate you, but in other ways it goes against the church. So I'm kind of, you know, pulled both ways. We do, we do have that post that we can show later.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:27] I love conditional love. Congratulations.

Douglas [01:06:30] But yeah, and prior to this post, the only people that known were our close families and friends. Not even all your siblings known. Right.

Brennen [01:06:38] By, by this point in the, when

Douglas [01:06:41] we were called that we posted.

Brennen [01:06:42] Oh, when we had, when we had posted, the only people that would have known is four, five of my friends and my parents. That's it? Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] If it's okay. Let me, let me just ask. How does it feel to be living a legally law, you know, a lawful loving marriage, to be living your life together and then to have. Why you guys smiley now?

Douglas [01:07:11] Because it's true.

Brennen [01:07:12] Because it's great. Yeah, it's a great life. We love living. We love having the opportunity and the privilege of one, getting married under law, but two, getting to live with one another, to love one another. Because so many people around the world either don't feel comfortable or are not allowed at all to have our situation. And so I don't know, we feel really lucky.

Douglas [01:07:41] Yeah.

Brennen [01:07:42] Very privileged and.

Brennen [01:07:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] And that's beautiful. And how does it feel to just be loving that life sitting on the couch and then find out that a church that's supposed to be about love is now like hunting you down and trying to hold a court or a disciplinary council to kick you out a

Kyle Ashworth [01:08:02] church that you've not been attending for the last four years?

John Dehlin [01:08:06] How does that feel for both of you? I want both of you to answer that, if you don't mind.

Brennen [01:08:09] For me, it was a complete interruption of what we feel like was Our, the most ideal life situation that we can be in and the happiest that we feel like we can be in this present moment in life and then to have the church come and seek us out, it puts a huge stent in that because now we're having someone call into question our relationship that we feel is the best version of what it could be right now.

Douglas [01:08:45] Yeah. And for me, it's a whole story of we're still surrounded by active members of the church.

Brennen [01:08:52] Loving active members.

Douglas [01:08:54] We love them. And so when I personally made the decision to not go to church or attend church anymore, even though there's feelings hurt, there's a lot of traumatized stuff I went through, I choose to not speak it publicly. There was no social media post. I mean, I was friend of Gerardo, but I don't post anything. I don't share anything on social media that was defaming church or talk about how church policy is stupid. Like I talk in these closed door conversation with my husband and my close

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:26] friends who love the church, who think the same. Yeah, yeah.

Douglas [01:09:29] Who left the church. But I don't bring it up to any active members. I don't try to disturb their lives.

Brennen [01:09:34] And to give, to give my side of that. I've. I've never up to the, up to this point in time, I'd never.

Douglas [01:09:40] Four hours ago.

Brennen [01:09:41] No, no, no.

Brennen [01:09:42] Up.

Brennen [01:09:43] Up to the point where I'd been called to the council, I'd never really had a major negative experience with the church that I would feel was even worthy to be public because I, I was, I would never really. I never had somebody, I mean, call me to a council. I never had a bishop call me like, you know, the, the F word or the F slur. I never had those experiences that a lot of other gay members of the church have. And so I didn't really feel like I, I had no reasoning to even

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:17] to come out of the, come out after the church.

Brennen [01:10:21] Yeah. I'd never had any reason to fault them.

Context and Questions Before the Council

John Dehlin [01:10:24] What about the idea that there's these men who are now have their eye on you to kick you out and they're going to hold a council to judge your worthiness before God to kick you out of their organization because you've legally and lawfully, you know, demonstrated your, your loving commitment to each other?

Brennen [01:10:44] For me, I still wasn't under that impression.

John Dehlin [01:10:47] Oh, okay.

Brennen [01:10:48] At that time, I wasn't under that impression. But Doug, he, he knew something was not right and he's like, you know, I want you to know, you might believe that this is done with good intention, but I've heard in the past that it's not with good intention.

Douglas [01:11:06] How would.

Brennen [01:11:06] How would you describe you? I would say be cautious kind of

Douglas [01:11:09] thing, because I. I was very deep into, you know, being active. Like, we went on a mission. I served all sorts of callings.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] You gave two years of your life to the church?

Douglas [01:11:19] Yeah.

Douglas [01:11:19] In and out.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] You paid, or someone paid for you to be, like, the church's salesperson for two years, Right.

Douglas [01:11:26] Yeah. And I was in depth. I was served in all leadership callings as a missionary. And so I. And plus, I also listened to Mormon stories with previous experience of excommunication. So I know that these things are not as lightly as they are made out to be. So I was like, brendan, hey, I. You know, I know you probably never heard, but this. These things are serious. Even though this bishop is trying to manipulate you into thinking that, oh, this is done out of complete love, and he just wanted to check in on you, you know, which I think that's what Brennan was on the impression of, like, oh, this is bishop just checking in and making sure that he's, you know, and then clearing, you know, clarifying. Clarifying his membership status, but that's it.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] So did you feel.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:15] I knew.

Brennen [01:12:16] I knew it wasn't just that I didn't. I knew.

Brennen [01:12:19] I.

Brennen [01:12:20] It wasn't him just clarifying because I knew there was something else going on. But I. But I still trusted it wasn't coming from him.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:26] Right.

Brennen [01:12:26] You know, the bishop. The bishop was absolved, and he was. In my mind, he was removed from it at the time.

Brennen [01:12:32] So.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] But, Doug, did you feel fear? Did you feel sad? Did you feel afraid?

Douglas [01:12:36] You know, so much fear. More. A little bit angry because, like, Brendan has not been to church. Like, if anyone gotten that letter, it makes way more sense if I was the one that getting a letter. But he was having such a happy life and just.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] But it could have made you feel like you might be next a little bit.

Douglas [01:12:57] Yeah.

Brennen [01:12:58] Oh, yeah. The other thing is, I'm at the cusp of graduation into becoming a nurse, taking a national board exam.

Brennen [01:13:07] We're.

Brennen [01:13:08] We're buying a house, we're planning a wedding reception. Like, all these things that are huge accomplishments and, like, huge life events that can be stressful. Now. Now I have. I have this on my plate of, you know.

Guest [01:13:23] Yeah.

Brennen [01:13:24] Everything that we're talking about now.

Douglas [01:13:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] All right. So the next audio clip is the actual disciplinary council, is that right?

Brennen [01:13:31] Yeah, this would have been, because May 26, 22 days later, and before this, I, because I had asked him about the written statement, I kind of wanted to compile the reasons why. And we'll go over this. Um, why I felt like the church, the church's teachings on LGBTQ issues are not inspired by God and why they're not healthy for gay people. And so I compiled this whole, you know, I'll have it here and we'll read it in a second when we start listening to the clip. And I compiled all this so that I had it in front of me so I could, you know, tell them where I was coming from and my thoughts on the topic, because it says bring written relevant information. And to me this was relevant information to the case.

Kyle Ashworth [01:14:19] And before we jump into that, can we just add one piece of relevant information? And that's how these actual councils are, are set up. Because I think even for active Latter Day Saints, they don't really know the structure of a disciplinary council or in today's vernacular, a membership council, in this case, typically with a.

Kyle Ashworth [01:14:35] Someone who's. If, if the shoes were on Doug's feet at this point where he was endowed and, and served a mission, holds the Melchizedek priesthood, he would have to go in front of a stake presidency, which is the leader of the stake. And then 12 counselors. In this case, because Brennan is not a Melchizedek priesthood holder, he goes into a room with a bishop. The bishop has two counselors, a first counselor and a second counselor. And then there's also a ward clerk who serves as a record keeper.

Kyle Ashworth [01:15:07] The word clerk does not have any decision making responsibilities in the council, but is there just to maybe advise and consent, but also keep record of the events. The many of these they often will tell you aren't recorded.

Kyle Ashworth [01:15:23] They don't keep a record of that. But yet that's. The job of the ward clerk, is to keep a record of what happened in that meeting. So you're in a room with a bishop, two counselors, a ward clerk, and then the person who's being accused or the person who's on trial, literally, and then a handful of witnesses or in this case, a singular witness. So that's kind of the scene. That's, that's all the people who are in this room during your membership council.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:50] Any idea why the church makes a lot of emphasis on word clerks, not writing word by word what's happening on the council, but rather just like a summary, because that's part of the instruction. In a handbook, it says that the word clerk is not supposed to write Word by word or quotations from what it's said.

Kyle Ashworth [01:16:08] Yeah. Having served in the ward clerk position, it's not word for word, but I mean, if you were a stenographer, you could pretty much get word for word. And really what it was is then the bishop could then refer to notes. I think the second part of that is this council is not binding until the bishop makes a call and has a meeting with his. His leader, the stake president. So the bishop can then refer back to ward council notes if he didn't remember something correctly. But in his meeting with the bishop, with the stake president, then the bishop can refer to the notes that were collected by the ward clerk in order to bring further light, knowledge, or remembrance of that meeting.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:48] What is so interesting is that, I mean, we're gonna hear about this later. He reads a statement, and then the bishop gets some things from that statement that he read that were not there at all. So who gets the fault? Is it the bishop? The counselors who are, you know, putting things in his mouth that he didn't actually say? Is it the work clerk who's like. Because. Because, you know, like, everyone has their biases. And then you have a work clerk not having a real recording, but just his notes, probably with his own biases. So, like, this is just so arbitrary.

Douglas [01:17:25] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [01:17:26] So you're saying, you're saying that the bishop in this circumstance is putting words in Brennan's mouth.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:30] Yeah, he would later. Yeah, he did. Later, after the disciplinary council, he said, well, in the statement you read, you said this, this, and this. But that was not on the statement at all.

Brennen [01:17:39] But taking the minutes would clear that up. Like, you know, somebody recording the actual word for word thing. There would be no interpretation or misconstraint of words if that, you know, if a ward clerk did have that responsibility, but they don't in this case.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:52] So I think the biggest danger for. For doing this, having an actual recording is that it shows that the decision that was made based on inspiration and on what the bishop. God from the spirit that Brennan was saying was not what actually Brennan said. So then how to justify, you know, Holy Spirit, inspiration?

John Dehlin [01:18:15] I mean, I don't think they would want to be held accountable for logic or reason or evidence. I think that. I mean, the thing that I realized is these decisions are always made beforehand. They come from the top. They come from general authorities, area authorities, usually down to stake presidents, down to the local leaders. That's the reason. And. And it's. Everything from there is just kind of rationalization. And so the, the less evidence, the less they can be held accountable, the better, because it's not. It doesn't make sense that it ever does.

Kyle Ashworth [01:18:50] And if the accountability comes and there is a problem there, then it's. Well, he must have been acting as a man. It was. This was just the fault of the bishop, who made some mistakes.

Brennen [01:18:59] But all of this is the reason for. Is one of the reasons for their plight of confidentiality. So they can't be held accountable.

John Dehlin [01:19:07] Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:07] And I would want to say two things before we play the disciplinary council. Brennan Douglas, consult, like, they asked me for references, you know, and what kind of things they could write. Write on the statement. But this was pure Brennan. I sent them references. And Brennan wrote this, like, beautiful, written, amazing statement that I was just so impressed by.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:30] And one of the things that I asked Brennan was, do you want to include things about the, you know, blacks in the priesthood and stuff like that? And Brennan said, no, I want to keep it just purely about LGBT issues and just talk about lgbt, because that's what. What I'm being called for. And I thought that was like. At the time, I was like, well, you had the opportunity to show them, you know, that other doctrines have changed. But then it ended up being the smartest decision because he was talking specifically about LGBT teachings in the church.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] All right, should we roll it? How. How long is this recording? Just so people know. What. How long to.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:07] It's about 40 minutes, but we're gonna pro. Pause it and talk. Just comment.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] Okay.

Douglas [01:20:12] Yeah, so we'll.

Brennen [01:20:13] It's 1.5 too quickly. It's too quick. 1.5 speed, or we'll start at 1.25,

John Dehlin [01:20:19] and we'll increase it if need to. Okay, so here is the disciplinary council, May 26, 2022.

The Disciplinary Council Audio Begins

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:20:30] Second counselor.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:31] So that's kind of everybody here.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:36] Have you ever been.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:37] Have you ever been to

Video Clip 3 [01:20:40] the Church

Video Clip 3 [01:20:41] of Jesus Christ Legacy?

Video Clip 3 [01:20:41] Yeah, I have, yeah. Been on a mission, actually. Okay, got you.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:46] You're in our end.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:47] Great.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:48] Perfect.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:48] So you actually know a lot about this stuff.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:50] Yep. I did not plan for that when we met. I mean, I wasn't specifically looking for an RM to marry, but then I

Video Clip 3 [01:20:57] figured I was like, well, I guess

Video Clip 3 [01:21:00] I got my rm, so.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:03] Very good. When were you.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:04] When did you serve?

Video Clip 3 [01:21:06] 2017. 2019. Houston, actually.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:09] Houston.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:10] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:11] Were you speaking English or Spanish?

Video Clip 3 [01:21:13] Vietnamese.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:13] Vietnamese.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:14] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:15] Well, listen, thank you for coming in. The way that a council goes, I'll kind of talk about the procedure of it. We'll start with an opening prayer. We'll talk about what's going on right now in your life. And then everyone is excused, including Jeff, while there's some deliberation with the counselors and myself. And then everyone's invited back in. We talk about decision, have a closing prayer. You always have a right to appeal to the state president for any decision. No participant in the Metric Council is permitted to make audio, video, or written recording. The decision that we make actually isn't final unless it's approved by the state president. So that's one of those things that you need not do.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:55] So, so will a decision be talked about at the end today? Yes, but it won't be official until stamp of approval.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:04] Yes.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:04] Cool.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:05] Makes sense. And then on the possible outcomes, there's really only three possible outcomes. One is remains of good standing. Two, formal membership restriction, and three is

Video Clip 3 [01:22:16] a withdrawal of membership, which would be maybe Sandy disfellowship.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:23] So the use.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:24] I know, I know.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:24] The disfellowship and excommunication.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:27] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:27] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:29] Yeah. And then any questions about any of that stuff?

Video Clip 3 [01:22:35] No, not that stuff.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:36] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:38] Are you.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:38] Okay, let's go ahead and start with prayer and. Yeah, we'll talk.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:41] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:42] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:47] Our dear Father in heaven, we are grateful for this time that we have to meet together.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:52] We pray for thy spirit to be here with us.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:55] We may seek for thy guidance, to know thy will.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:59] We're grateful for.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:01] For this time with Brandon and Doug and. And for this time we have to counsel together, to understand each other, to have a feel and outpouring of thy love for each of us.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:18] And we say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Thanks.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:25] So.

John Dehlin [01:23:26] Okay. Brendan, you wanted to say something?

Brennen [01:23:28] Yeah, I just want to say really quick, even. Even now, an opening prayer, closing prayer, a prayer still. It still has that feeling of it being, you know, a reverent, spiritual thing for me, Not. Not as much as it once did, but I can still feel it even now, just hearing that. But nothing that is going to happen from here on forward is spiritual or reverent or divinely inspired. And it's. It's. You know, it's. It's sad because I wish I didn't have to feel that, but it's.

Guest [01:24:03] Yeah.

Brennen [01:24:03] Yeah. And I think we can do 1.25. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:24:09] So it's disorienting, the juxtaposition of things that you're conditioned to feel. Mean spirituality versus the actual is not spiritual.

Brennen [01:24:19] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] Okay. All right. I'm sorry for that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:23] Let's continue.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [01:24:27] I don't know that you guys know this.

Video Clip 4 [01:24:29] Oh, and then one of the things,

Video Clip 4 [01:24:30] everything that we have, every thing we talk about, it remains confidential. Right. So sometimes people wonder about that and sometimes wonder that it worked too. I've had people that I've seen that have been from church. They then talked to my wife, thinking that I spoke with her about it.

Video Clip 4 [01:24:44] Nope, didn't. There's. There's HIPAA in there.

Video Clip 4 [01:24:49] And this one, while it's not hippa,

Video Clip 4 [01:24:50] it's fun that it remains confidential. Right, Right. So I met with Brennan. It's probably been two years ago

Video Clip 4 [01:25:01] at

Video Clip 4 [01:25:01] the first time that we talked about you being in a relationship with Doug and planning on getting married. That was actually before you were married.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:07] I don't actually remember the conversation.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:10] I remember.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:12] I mean, we. We've seen each other in passing, but. Yeah. Remind me of what we talked about.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:18] So we just talked about that. And I asked you, and I may have even offended you in the way that I asked. I'm sorry if I did.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:25] I don't remember, so I wouldn't know.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:27] I'll be all about it. But one thing I should say is I work with many people who are gay, and I actually love working with them. That's one where I have a level of comfort with that. It doesn't bother me. Most of my part, partners are not members of the church. Most of them drink coffee or alcohol. And if they wanted to be a member of the church, they would have to stop. Right. So they can't be members of the church, but it doesn't mean I don't like them. Does that make sense?

Video Clip 4 [01:25:52] Yes. Yeah.

Video Clip 4 [01:25:53] So when we talked before, I asked you, I said, I asked you if you had previously struggled with same gender attraction. You seem bothered. I said, I don't struggle with it. I'm embracing it.

Video Clip 4 [01:26:05] I do remember that.

Video Clip 4 [01:26:06] Okay.

Video Clip 4 [01:26:08] So anyway, that's one where, again, I want to make sure that I'm being respectful with everything there.

Video Clip 4 [01:26:12] Yeah.

Video Clip 4 [01:26:13] Do you mind if I ask a quick question?

John Dehlin [01:26:18] So do you mind if I ask a quick question?

Brennen [01:26:19] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:26:20] This is not to pile on the bishop in any way, because it's systems, not people. But I do want church leaders to learn how to more effectively handle these sorts of things. I remember kind of, you know, in kind of, let's just say the racism domain, there's kind of that joke like, I'm not racist. I have a gay friend. You know what I mean? I'm sorry, I'm not racist. I have a black friend.

Brennen [01:26:41] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:26:43] Like when. When he. When he says, hey, I have friends at work and I'm okay, gay friends at work. And I'm okay with that, or whatever it was he said is that like, it seems like what he's trying to do is say, hey, I'm not, I'm not a homophobe. I'm. I'm cool with gay people because I have some co workers and I'm. What I don't, I'm not homophobic extra, you know, towards them. But I'm wondering how that's experienced to you and whether that's helpful or not or if it's experiences condescending with the

Brennen [01:27:14] amount of, I don't know, I've, I've had that come from people and I feel like that's a trope. Like, well, I have a gay friend, so I can't be homophobic. That's what, that's kind of how it felt to me at the time. But something that I felt like was more valid about what he was saying was in medicine, as, as a doctor and as healthcare providers, we have a plight to care for our patients equally, no matter what what, you know, whatever factor or whatever characteristic or thing that they have about them, whether it's ethnicity, race, age, sexual orientation. In this case, we are. You're, as a healthcare provider, you're supposed to treat everyone equally.

Brennen [01:27:55] And that's, you know, I was hoping that would be the case for him as a doctor, but it seems like because of the church, they feel like they can not do that. He's choosing the church over his healthcare provider responsibility.

Kyle Ashworth [01:28:11] Can I also just add to. So I don't like the struggling either. And ironically, in this particular room, John is outnumbered. I mean, there is. He's the 20% minority here with four gay guys sitting behind microphones. So I don't like the idea of this, this struggle either. I don't struggle with my sexuality. But the part that I think aggravates me even more is he likens sexuality to an addiction. Well, I also have friends who drink coffee and are alcoholics and they would have to change those behaviors if they ever wanted to join our club, our church.

Brennen [01:28:48] I didn't even think about that.

Kyle Ashworth [01:28:49] And I think that's super problematic in, in the way Latter Day Saints view topics like this. Well, if you overcome, if you change, if you're no longer addicted to your sexuality, then yes, you can become part of us. Just like my friends who are alcoholics, just like my friends who drink coffee. I associate with them every day. But they wouldn't be able to join our group until they got rid of those habits. They got rid of those addictions. And my sexuality is an addiction, is not an addiction. My sexuality is a reality. And someone. I should never. No one's sexuality should ever be likened to an addict. Something that can be overcome or changed or fixed via some outside influence.

Brennen [01:29:28] Something that you struggle with, quote, unquote.

Kyle Ashworth [01:29:30] And the fact that you struggle with that. Yeah, I do know alcoholism. People can struggle with alcoholism. But in turn, like, we brought this up over and over again with this bishop. I didn't. And. And I'm not going to speak on behalf of the other gays in the room, but I didn't have to sacrifice my values or morals to. To live authentically and honestly and happily. That wasn't something that I needed to do, because living my truth and living to the fullest measure of my creation was the authentic, the most authentic part of me. It was the most honest part of me. And it wasn't a struggle. And it wasn't. The struggle was the church's way that they dealt with me. That was the struggle.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:10] Yeah, I. I often like the phrase, I don't struggle with same sex attraction. I. I struggle with the church's homophobia.

Brennen [01:30:19] Yeah, agreed. I mean, I mean, what he was saying in, you know, just now, three years ago, I was in church for. I think it was a. A mission call or maybe a baby. No. One of my siblings was giving a talk, and I wanted to be there to support them.

Brennen [01:30:39] And so I was there in church, and I think the bishop saw me and he's like, oh, I haven't seen him a little bit. I haven't. I haven't checked in with him in a bit. Well, he's here already. Let me call him into my office. So he called me in and that's when he asked. He's like, you know, I know I've been updated, and I know in the past that you have.

Brennen [01:30:58] You have had issues regarding, you know, same sex attraction. And I was like, they're not issues. I don't have an issue of same sex attraction because to me, it's not an issue. And I made that very clear with him, and that's what he was talking about. So.

Brennen [01:31:13] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] All right, let's go ahead and keep rolling.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:31:22] So that's kind of everybody here. Have you ever been, Doug, have you

Video Clip 5 [01:31:28] ever been to

Video Clip 5 [01:31:31] the Church of Jesus Christ?

Video Clip 5 [01:31:32] L. Yeah, I have. It started all over again. Been there, done that. Been on the mission, actually. Okay, got you. You're an rm.

Video Clip 5 [01:31:40] No, not that stuff.

Video Clip 5 [01:31:43] At the first time that we talked about you being in a Relationship with Doug and planning on getting married. That was actually before you were married.

Video Clip 5 [01:31:50] That's good. I don't actually remember the conversation.

Video Clip 5 [01:31:52] I remember. I mean, we.

Video Clip 5 [01:31:55] We've seen each other in passing, but yeah. Remind me of what we talked about.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:00] So we just talked about that and I asked you, and I may have even offended you in the way that I asked. I'm sorry if I did.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:07] I don't. I don't remember.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:08] So I want to know.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:09] I'll tell you all about it.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:10] But one thing I should say is I work with many people who are gay and I actually.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:15] Let's jump.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:16] Let's jump.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:16] That's one where I have probably about another minute. It doesn't bother me. Most of my partners are not members of the church. Most of them drink coffee or alcohol. And if they wanted to be a member of the church, they would have to stop. Right. So they can't be members of the church, but it doesn't mean I don't like them. Does that make sense?

Video Clip 5 [01:32:34] Yes. Yeah.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:35] So when we talked before, I asked you, I said, I asked you if you had previously struggled with same gender attraction. You seem bother basic. I don't struggle with it. I'm embracing it.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:47] I do remember that.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:48] Okay.

Video Clip 5 [01:32:50] So anyway, that's one where again, I want to make sure that I'm being respectful with everything there. Yeah, in, in the conversation, you know, we just talked about what are the long term objectives with it. When I spoke with you on the phone just a few weeks ago, you said, you know, I've actually kind of wondered what I. What to do as far as being a member of the church is concerned. Have you had further thoughts on that? What are your.

Video Clip 5 [01:33:18] Yeah, my. It kind of been on my to do list. I mean, to eventually remove my records at some point because, I mean, currently, I mean, our relationship is at odds with the church, but I mean, we. A number of other things that we just don't really believe in the church as at least either of us once did. So it was on my like list of things to do. I just hadn't made a point of it. I mean, I. Who was I talking to? Probably talking to my mom about it. Something along the lines of like, oh, you can just send a letter and then we'll remove your records, you know, and yeah, I just hadn't made a point of it yet, but I. I had intentions, I guess, to do so.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:08] So.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:09] And I actually can help you with that. That may make the rest of this council actually obsolete.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:13] Right.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:14] Usually a council is held if someone's saying, I want to remain a member of the church, if someone's saying, I don't really believe it, it's not really anything that changes. Is that what you have there? Is that a letter?

Video Clip 5 [01:34:26] No.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:27] You said I could bring a written statement.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:28] Oh, yeah, sure.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:29] And so I typed the thing up about, you know, where my. My thoughts lie on this and something, you know. Sure.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:39] Please do.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:40] Sure.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:40] Right now?

Video Clip 5 [01:34:41] Absolutely.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:42] Give me that floor.

Video Clip 5 [01:34:43] All right.

John Dehlin [01:34:45] So if, as I understand it, harder. You've cut out what he read and he's just going to read it live. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:50] I just thought it would be better to get him with better audio reading.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] Yeah. The beautiful statement and emotion.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:55] And everything.

Brennen [01:34:56] Yeah, yeah.

Brennen [01:34:58] Before I read this, there was a. There was a point, I think it was like three fourths, I was just about done, where the bishop interrupted me to answer questions. So at that point we're gonna keep playing the recording. Yeah, we'll just switch back to the audio.

John Dehlin [01:35:11] But it was cut out of the audio.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:13] Yep. Yep. He knows where to stop.

Brennen [01:35:17] Numbered it and everything.

Brennen [01:35:17] Thank you.

Brennen [01:35:21] I started this with a cover page.

Douglas [01:35:23] Apa.

Brennen [01:35:23] You can tell I just graduated from college.

Kyle Ashworth [01:35:26] I just want to make sure. Did you cite your sources?

Douglas [01:35:28] Because.

Brennen [01:35:28] Oh, yes.

Douglas [01:35:29] Okay, good.

Brennen [01:35:30] Oh, yes, yes. And if anybody watching wants to see this and see all the references that I have, you can go. You'll. You'll be able to see it. I'm not sure if it's already available, but yeah, it is. I have all the references.

Brennen [01:35:44] Show notes already.

Brennen [01:35:44] Yeah. So. From a college student to you.

Brennen [01:35:49] So here.

Brennen [01:35:50] Here it is. I'd first like to thank you for giving me the opportunity of bringing a written statement today. I've had a number of thoughts on today's meeting that I've been wanting to share. I provide this relevant information on same sex marriage in the church, not because I think it'll change the course of today's council, but so I can explain why I believe the church's teachings on same sex marriage are not divinely inspired, why I believe the church is harmful in its actions towards gay sons and daughters of God, and why I think today's disciplinary council is unnecessary in my current circumstances.

The Church's Changing Teachings on Same-Sex Relations

Brennen [01:36:21] Across the years, the church's teachings and doctrines regarding same sex relations have changed extensively. For example, on whether or not same sex attraction is curable, Spencer W. Kimball said, we know such a disease, homosexuality is curable. Men have come dejected, discouraged, embarrassed, near terrified, and have gone out later, full of confidence and faith in themselves, with self respect. Again, the confidence of their families, their home ties strengthened and ready to manfully take their part in society and even in the church on an approved cured basis. Boyd K. Packer said finding the cause of this condition is an essential step in developing a cure. It homosexuality is not desirable, it is unnatural, it is abnormal.

Brennen [01:37:01] It is an affliction. Delineate jokes said homosexuality can be cured if the battle is well organized and pursued vigorously and continuously. Today the Church states that for some, feelings of same sex attraction, or at least the intensity of those feelings may diminish over time. But in any case, a change in attraction should not be expected or demanded as an outcome by parents or leaders, even despite previous attempts to do so in the past. They also state, quote, the intensity of same sex attraction is not a measure of your faithfulness. Many people pray for years and do all they can to be obedient in an effort to reduce same sex attraction, yet find they are still attracted to the same sex.

Brennen [01:37:42] Spencer W. Kimball contradicts this in his book the Miracle Forgiveness that if your knuckles aren't bleeding you're not trying hard enough to be faithful and reduce your same sex attraction. This book only stopped being sold in Deseret book this past January after there was pressure to remove it from circulation.

Brennen [01:38:00] Another example is the Church's ways to cure same sex attraction. The Church recommended that gay people should marry someone of the opposite sex to fix their same sex attractions. A study was conducted that gauged gauged a member's quality of life in a mixed orientation marriage. There were 1500 LGBTQ church members surveyed. The members who were single or in a mixed orientation marriage after being encouraged to do so reported an average quality of life less than that of someone with lupus erythematosus.

Brennen [01:38:30] Later on, President Hinckley stated that marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations. But by far the most notable change in the Church's teachings on homosexuality was the 2015 November policy. Policy stated that children of gay couples were not allowed to be baptized until the age of 18 and could only be baptized with First Presidency approval and after they had disavowed their parents relationship. The policy also labeled same sex married couples as apostates.

Brennen [01:38:58] Even murderers are not labeled as apostates.

Brennen [01:39:01] The policy overall was very contradictory to the second article of Faith that men shall not be punished for another man's transgressions. Children of gay couples were being punished for the supposed sins of their parents. President Nelson, Senior Apostle at the time, said that the First Presidency and all the Apostles had received confirmation on this policy and, and that it was, quote, the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord before. Years later, the policy was redacted completely and children of gay couples were allowed to be baptized. Same sex married couples were also no longer constituted as apostates. During the press conference held to announce the reversal of this policy, Elder Oaks said, quote, the immoral conduct and heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.

Brennen [01:39:47] The church's teachings and doctrines of Jesus Christ are said to be unchanging. The church says that they do not sway with the changes of society. Yet the church has changed their teachings on homosexuality time and time again. Homosexuality was taught to be curable, but now the church disavows that. We used to be told that you could cure your same sex attraction if you married a woman, but now the church says it's not a solution. Children of gay parents could not be baptized, but now they can. Same sex married couples were labeled as apostates, but now they're not. If the church's teachings on same sex relations are really divinely inspired, why do they change so often?

Brennen [01:40:24] Does the Lord change his direction this often? The church's teachings are also contributing to high suicide rates among gay members of the church. While the church is concerned about suicide in its community, there are still teachings that exist in the church that belittle and persecute the identities and life decisions of gay members.

Brennen [01:40:42] An example is President Oaks in 2017 telling gay members of the church, don't label yourself as gay, lesbian, bisexual because it inhibits your growth. Or president Hinckley telling Larry King on national television that gay people have a problem.

Brennen [01:40:59] But the most raw teaching that has contributed to a culture of suicidality among gay members is a famous quote from Bruce R. McConkey where he says that quote, a loss of version, a loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of one's life. Better dead clean than alive unclean.

Brennen [01:41:18] I would rather have you come back from the mission in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it. The church continues to stand by this belief by teaching that a gay person must not act on their natural born attractions. Love and companionship are some of the most basic needs for a human being. Yet the church teaches that a gay person needs to live a life of celibacy in order to be worthy in the eyes of God. Even Russell m. Nelson, in his most recent devotional to the young adults, said that it's not good for a man to be alone. President Nelson remarried 14 months after the death of his wife.

Brennen [01:41:50] If our current prophet couldn't bear to be celibate for a year, why is it okay that the church recommends gay people to be celibate for their entire lives? Countless members of the Church have ended their lives over this issue and that they're only worthy if they don't act on their attractions. One Mormon teen in Utah died by suicide and left a note saying specifically that the church makes her feel that she's better off not alive. Suicide continues to be the leading cause of death for teenagers 10 to 17 in Utah and Idaho, according to the Pediatric According to the Pediatrics Journal, LGBTQ teens who have been rejected by their parents or caregivers are 8 times more likely to assist to attempt suicide, 5 times more likely to report high levels of depression, 3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs, and 3.4 times more likely to have unprotected sex when compared

Brennen [01:42:40] to those who have been accepted by their families.

Brennen [01:42:43] Much of this rejection that we see in families LDS families has stemmed from church teachings on homosexuality. During a PR interview in 2006, when asked about family acceptance and inclusion of homosexual children, Elder Oaks advises parents of LGBT children to tell their children this don't expect to stay overnight. Don't expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don't expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your quote unquote partnership.

Brennen [01:43:16] To contrast this, Quentin L. Cook states, let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let's not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.

Brennen [01:43:33] So which is it? Are we to follow what Elder Oaks said, or Elder Oaks or Elder Cook's invitation of love and compassion? Until now, I've never been disciplined for seeking out my soulmate, or in other words, or in other words for quote, acting on my same sex attraction. This is the first time I've been sought out by the Church to answer for any such conduct. I was under the impression that when someone has been inactive for as long as I have, they would not be called to a council like this. The general Handbook states that a membership council is not required is not required to be held for cases of same sex marriage.

Brennen [01:44:11] So my circumstance of not being active in the Church and only having to receive the Aaronic Priesthood makes this disciplinary council seem less than necessary. This is where I was interrupted.

John Dehlin [01:44:21] Yep okay. That was beautiful and really powerful and thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. And Gerardo, I can see why that was so moving to you.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:34] Yeah. And I just can't imagine what. What these guys are. I mean, what was the reaction? Brandon, if you want to talk about

Brennen [01:44:42] as you're reading this, thank you so much for asking. Because this was something that I immediately told Doug and Gerardo after it happened, was while I was reading this, everyone in the room but the bishop was looking away.

Brennen [01:44:58] The.

Brennen [01:44:59] The second counselor, the first council and the ward clerk did not look at me once at all. And two of them had this kind of look on their face of like, like indignancy. Of like, I can't believe he's even reading this. Like, the audacity of him to come in here and read this written statement that, that they truly had that faith, that look on their face. But I was really. I was really glad that the bishop was, you know, he was the only person in the room that was giving me his undivided attention. And that made me, you know, feel heard. But I could tell everyone else in the room did not. Did not seem like they wanted to hear what I was saying.

Douglas [01:45:43] There we go.

Kyle Ashworth [01:45:44] I was just say. Let's just talk about that for a second. The audacity to bring up the words of prophets, living prophets, the odd. The audacity to read statements from the next prophet in line, President Oaks. That's what they were worried about. They were upset in this council that you were reading the Not. And we're not talking about old history either. We're talking about 2006-2006-2019-2018. I'm familiar with all these quotes. I've. I've. Especially as a closeted Latter Day Saint, I ingested all of these messages. But here, I just want to frame this for context. Here are a group of Latter Day Saint leaders, ecclesiastical leaders, leaders that are responsible for hundreds of members in.

Kyle Ashworth [01:46:29] In a geographical area who are upset that you're reading words of a living prophet, words of apostles, words of general authorities that contradict each other. The audacity is that that exists in Mormonism. The audacity is not that you're bringing it up, it's that this is the reality for gay Latter Day Saints. They hear the next prophet in line say one thing. They hear a general authority, another apostle, say it. Something completely different. And I'm just referencing the Dallin H. Oaks quote and then the Quentin L. Cook quote that are wildly different, but they're not decades apart. They are contemporary with each other, who do we trust?

Kyle Ashworth [01:47:13] And you bring that up, which of these quotes do I believe in? Do I believe in the next prophet? Do I believe in the future next prophet? Which of these general authorities, which of these apostles do we listen to? And this goes to show the problem in this whole excommunication issue, because you have upper church leaders saying one thing, you have a gen area authority saying another thing. You have a stake president who says one thing, and then you have a bishop that's doing something completely different. Where do we turn for authority? Where does it. Where does a Latter Day Saint go for the truth?

Kyle Ashworth [01:47:44] Because in this instance, we are using quotes directly from prophets who lead the church today. And neither of those quotes can be trusted because one negates the other, one cancels the other out. I'm confused.

Douglas [01:47:58] Yeah. And sorry. And don't forget, the same general authority say two different things at two different times. Like, it's not about just different people, it's about the same person, too. We didn't bring it up.

Brennen [01:48:09] But, you know, even just 10 years later. Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, Dallin H. Oaks was in hot water for a long time because he's kind of been at the forefront of this LGBTQ issue, you know, fighting for Prop 8 in California, all that stuff. I think he finally had to come around and be like, okay, you know, we're going to treat them equally, because he was kind of under fire. And eventually, you know, he did say that, you know, this no longer applies. You know, don't do this anymore. Even though I said it like 10 years ago, don't do it anymore kind of thing.

Kyle Ashworth [01:48:42] Well, and maybe this could just be a side tangent, but In April of 2019, Oaks was the voice of the change of the policy. So I don't know if that. If that was a nudge, a nod, a prod to the fact that since the. I mean, conservatively, the 60s 70s, Oaks has been at the forefront of this topic, pushing against the LGBTQ community at every turn, every place he could do it. And then was it ironic? Was it just happenstance that it was Oaks that then had to come out in a public way and say homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships will be treated the same in the church? And if so, did he actually mean it? Did he actually mean what he said when he. When he came out with that statement in April of 2019? Because if he. If he meant it, we wouldn't be sitting here collectively today discussing excommunications that are happening.

Brennen [01:49:34] Right.

Brennen [01:49:35] Or was that just good pr?

Kyle Ashworth [01:49:37] Was it good pr.

On the Record: LGBTQ History in the Church

John Dehlin [01:49:39] So I'll so a couple things. I, I, I want to call everyone's attention to an amazing document, Kyle, that you compiled called on the Record. I went ahead and pasted it into the live comments on Facebook and YouTube. We'll include that in the show notes as well, if it's not already there. But Kyle, you put together a PDF of like, what, 80 pages of the history of the Mormon Church, LGBTQ members and prophetic utterances. And it's a real contribution. If you want to dig into the history of prophetic contradictions and prophetic psychological violence, frankly, and backpedaling, it's all there and on the record.

Kyle Ashworth [01:50:19] Yeah, and when I created on the Record, it wasn't even my creation. It was just an assemblage of the quotes. And I wasn't trying to pin the church anywhere other than to show a chronological order of what has happened from the 1820s until 9 till 2022, a history of the comments, a history of the change, and really, if anything, I should be accused of doing this for the benefit of the church, to show exactly what Brendan just talked about in this disciplinary council that the church indeed has changed. The church has changed not only its policy, but it's also changed its doctrine in terms of how LGBTQ people are treated in the church.

Kyle Ashworth [01:50:54] And I just wanted people to see the historicity, the chronological flow of where the church has been, because I guarantee you, because on the Record has been downloaded nearly 50,000 times now, I get the same reaction from people Latter Day Saints who read on the Record as those who sat in your disciplinary council, those counselors who sat in your disciplinary council, they first say, this can't be. This can't be the truth. There's no way our church did these types of things. Castrations, excommunications, literally take pulling people out of their homes and shipping them to other countries, shipping them to Hawaiian Islands to get rid of them so that they wouldn't have gay people in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] All of these things, don't forget electroshock therapy to genitals at BYU.

Kyle Ashworth [01:51:38] 100%. All of these things are in our Mormon history. And nobody talks about them because the church has done a really good job at keeping those LGBTQ closets closed, locked, and put behind granite vaults. But I put the work together to pull those out. And I knew the audience that I was going to be providing the on the Record to, it wasn't necessarily the LGBTQ society. It was the act of Latter Day Saint who would then look at me and criticize those quotes and say they aren't real. So then I had to source everything.

Kyle Ashworth [01:52:07] So not only are you going to get the quote, but you can click on the source below it and you can see where it comes from. An official LDS spot or a recording or something that's verifiable. So a Latter Day Saint absolutely could not say, well, you just made that up or took it out of context. I want you to read, to read it. I want you to dig into the years and years of history behind each of those quotes. I want you to see how it unfolds. So, yes, thanks for the plug for on the Record. You can, you can find that@laddergay stories.org backslash record.

Kyle Ashworth [01:52:35] It's been downloaded so many times now, you can just Google on the record LDS and it'll pop up and you can download it and read it for yourself. It's over 90 pages now. We have another update coming up in a couple weeks with some of the transgender stuff that's happened at byu. So it's a constantly updated volume that allows the people to see the chronological layout of where the Church has been. And we should also include something about excommunications again and update and show where the Church has come out in 2019 and said we're not doing them. And here we are in 2022, still covering excommunications.

Brennen [01:53:07] I was going to say that on on the Record was very helpful for me too, with even just writing this written statement. A lot of the quotes you won't be able to find on main church websites because they've been redacted, hidden, you know, put 10, 10 pages deep into the church website. And so a lot of, a lot of the, the links that I reference in my own written statement I was able to get because of on the Record. So.

Kyle Ashworth [01:53:35] And that's absolutely right. I've had this happen before where someone will say you're this whole Boyd K. Packer little factory thing doesn't exist, that I looked for it all over on the Church's website and he said nothing about the little factory. And I say, you know what? Not only do I have the video recording of it, but you will not find it on the Church's website. You will not even find that Boyd K. Packer was in the building in October of 1976, because they've gotten rid of the fact that he was even on the speaker's list in that general conference in that priesthood session. He's not there. And that's where he gave the talk that is the extent that the Mormon Church has went to hide some of these and shove some of these really difficult subjects into its closet. The Hartman rector, where you wouldn't want to be a homosexual. They're the, the, the.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:18] The addiction, like alcoholism.

Kyle Ashworth [01:54:21] It's exactly right. That is completely gone. If you look at the talk he gave in General conference, which was 22 minutes long, you now look at what's on the church's website. It's 11 minutes long. What happened to 11 minutes worth of content? Where did that content go? Those are all the things that I was able to find and put back into on the record so we really can see what was on the record.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] And it, and it all stems from the fact that the Mormon Church teaches its membership that the prophets speak for God. Literally speak to God and speak for God. And so the church is in this double bind of wanting the members to obey everything the prophets say. But then when time shows the prophets to have been wrong or bigoted, then they want to be able to redact what they said, but they don't want the members to question whether the current prophets are still speaking for God. So.

Guest [01:55:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:09] The church is in a real pickle. I, I just really quickly, I want to jump back to the audio, but I will say I've been excommunicated. I sat in front of 15 men, not three. And they were all. When I was reading my statements, they were all looking at their watches, staring at the wall. There was zero eye contact in the building because it's a barbaric, violent act. And everybody's uncomfortable, and it's not loving. If it was loving, they would be looking at you, connecting, listening, validating, nodding their heads. Tears would be coming down their eyes. That would be the sign that it was a loving, connected, emotional act.

John Dehlin [01:55:47] So I just want to say that was my experience as well. And then finally, I just want to thank the Ripe Ruin for sending a super chat. She writes, please let us have a copy to share with our fellow lgbtq. Plus, they need to know they have community who love them and support them and understand them. And yes, all of this will be included in the show notes. Thanks for the super chat. They help us finance this whole operation. Okay, should we jump to the next part of the disciplinary council? Is that all right?

Brennen [01:56:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] So they. They interrupt. Is it right that they're about to interrupt what you're reading?

Brennen [01:56:21] So I start reading the next paragraph, and then I get, you know, cut off halfway through. So we're going to hear the paragraph.

Brennen [01:56:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] You'll Hear them cutting you off. Okay,

Brennan Describes the Council Experience

Douglas [01:56:34] So I know we talked about

Brennen [01:56:35] this on the phone, but I first like to thank you for giving the opportunity of bringing a written statement. A lot of thoughts on today's meeting that I wanted to share.

Brennen [01:56:51] This is me reading. Were you able to cut it to

Brennen [01:56:54] where it just jumps forward? There.

Brennen [01:56:56] There it goes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:56] There's a couple seconds.

Brennen [01:57:05] President Oaks also said that immoral conduct of heterosexual and homosexual relationships should be treated the same way. Would an unmarried cohabitating heterosexual couple be called to a disciplinary council like this? Why isn't this council following that obstruction that heterosexual and homosexual relationships are to be treated the same way?

Douglas [01:57:24] I can actually answer that if you want. They are treated the same way. So if someone is cohabitating and they're not active, then somebody should have membership

Brennen [01:57:33] councils in that case, too. That's good to know. Thank you for clarifying. But the fact that I was sought out for this meeting makes me feel a little bit upset. The journal handbook also states that if a member moves out of the stake, the stake presidents of both stakes would confer about where the council would take place. Was the stake president for my home in Boise contacted about the council?

Guest [01:57:56] Yeah. Okay.

Douglas [01:57:57] As well as your bishop. In fact, we recommended. We actually called them. I was going to send your records over there were. Just. Because even if someone's not active.

Brennen [01:58:06] Right.

Douglas [01:58:07] And they actually requested not to have the record sent to them.

Guest [01:58:11] Okay.

Douglas [01:58:13] Good question.

Brennen [01:58:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] So I'm a tiny bit lost about what just happened there. Can you restate, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:19] Yeah. So this is actually really, really important. The handbook of Instructions has this section. And it.

Brennen [01:58:27] It's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:28] It's. Again, it's really important. It's about jurisdiction and where a council is supposed to be held when a member moves out. What the handbook says is that the bishop of the old ward, where the membership record is. If he finds out about a sin that merits a disciplinary council, he's supposed to contact the new bishop from the word where the new member was moved to coordinate where the council is supposed to be held. The only that.

Douglas [01:59:07] That.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:07] That's the. The only way this happens is if the couple or the person has moved inside the same stake boundaries. In other words, it's. This is a word inside the same stake. If the couple or the person has moved outside of stake boundaries, it's the stake president who is supposed to call the stake president from the new stake and coordinate where the council is supposed to be held. This is really, really important. It's really clear. Several paragraphs long. On the count on the handbook of instructions. And that's what Brennan is saying was this procedure followed. The Jew bishop contacted the bishop or the stake president from, you know, the.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:52] The state where I currently reside on. And the bishop says, yes, the stake president was contacted. And we also contacted the bishop when we wanted to transfer the records, and they said that your records should remain here. Later, we're going to find out that that's probably not true.

Guest [02:00:10] And

Kyle Ashworth [02:00:13] just to follow up for those who are just joining this part of the conversation and didn't catch us in the very beginning, the bishop who is holding this membership council is not Brennan's bishop where he currently lives. This is a bishop from years prior. This is four years prior, home ward. Basically his homeward. Basically, yeah, yeah. This is the bishop where he grew up, who's holding this membership council. He's went to school, he's graduated, he's now married and lives in a completely different area. And. And so that's what Gerardo is trying to say, is the Bish. The bishop where he currently lives, now that he's married years later, should be holding or at least involved in this discussion.

Kyle Ashworth [02:00:53] But it's not. It's his homeward bishop who's taken upon himself this opportunity to initiate a membership council. And then the second part of that that Gerardo brings up really well is that that bishop then should be coordinating this between the two separate stake presidents, the stake president from the home ward and the stake president of where Brennan lives currently. And we're going to find out that didn't happen at all. There was not even a mention of that.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] And my understanding is the wherever you currently live, the bishop is supposed to, like, reach out to you, get to know you, see how you're doing, check in with you and, like, build a relationship with you. And then sort of like after he's had that chance, then give you kind of a chance to make your decision. Lets you know the implications. I don't want to say a warning, because that sounds, you know, a bit ominous, but, like some relationship building there and a chance for you to make your own decision before a disciplinary council is ever called.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:50] Totally. Totally. Totally.

John Dehlin [02:01:52] It sounds like that didn't happen at all at all. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:55] Later, the bishop tried to claim, well, we did meet three years ago where you told me that you, you know, you were gonna live a homosexual lifestyle.

John Dehlin [02:02:03] But a lot can happen in three years.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:05] Yeah, exactly. No, that doesn't count. That's not how it's supposed to work. It also makes it even worse, the fact that the the sin that they were being called for.

John Dehlin [02:02:17] Yeah, yeah, that's weird.

Brennen [02:02:18] I didn't think about that either.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] Yeah, but, but just if you take all the legalism away, just like the love of Christ, these are humans you're dealing with. Your current bishop should reach out to you, get to know you before he's calling you to his disciplinary council. And this happened with me. I had a new stake president who I'd never met before. And he sends, you know, my previous stake president was okay with my Mormon stories and what I was doing. New stake president gets put in, is told to excommunicate me. And before I'd ever met him, once, I'm getting a letter saying, you're about to be excommunicated. Communicated show up to your disciplinary council. And I'm like, I don't even know you, bro. Like, where's Jesus in that?

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:01] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:02] And that was the point that I just wanted to bring up over and over again. When we highlight these discussions, it is, where is Christ in this? Where is the comfort, those in need of comfort, whereas the mourn with those that mourn or need that need that comforting and mourning. And where is Christ in this? Where is Christ in saying, well, you told me three years ago that you're going to live the homosexual lifestyle, therefore not without any contact for three years. I'm going to make sure via the letter that automatically says that you're in a same sex relationship, that you didn't live up to our standards.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] The church's policies were different three years ago. Even the church's policies have changed. You know, like, can you, like that's crazy.

Douglas [02:03:41] Right?

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:41] And that's my point is like that, that is the standing that this bishop has taken. That is the foundation that, that this disciplinary council was built upon. And it's, it's shaky at best.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:52] So this is where it starts, you know, showing if it's a personal vendetta or like someone telling, you know, you need to do this to the bishop,

John Dehlin [02:04:01] would you say something?

Douglas [02:04:02] Yeah, I was like, to be fair, in the last conversation with the bishop and stake president, the stake president did say, sorry, it was like informal, but we want, you know, can I use the COVID card? It was hard to meet people. It was hard to, you know, do that. That's what that's.

Brennen [02:04:18] He's like, cut us a little slack.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] I mean, there's FaceTime, there's Zoom, you know, there's the phone. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:25] Well, and there's. They could still meet with them before sending them a letter. Yeah. Why had the letter. Why was the letter. Right.

Brennen [02:04:33] Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:04:34] If your bishop is concerned. I've had six gay couples that were excommunicated during COVID Just. Just for the record.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:41] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [02:04:41] So I. I'm still certain. Quite certain. The churches wheels of justice as they perceive justice. We're still working quite fluidly during COVID because I. You're not the only ones that faced a membership council.

Brennen [02:04:53] Yeah, I think we. We'd heard about that in Utah, that there was some 70 going around Utah to excommunicate gay couples. That's just what we heard in Idaho.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] So imagine having that job. Go get the gays. Go get them, Take care of them. You. I. I bless you with the priesthood power to hunt down the gays.

Brennen [02:05:11] That's the new calling out of the church. Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:05:13] You really say. You say that, though. Tongue in cheek, but literally.

Douglas [02:05:16] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:05:16] Is that happening? I think that's a very valid question. Are there general authority 70s who have been called from Idaho that are walking around Zion, meeting with stake presidents and saying, we need to clear this out? And is that in the church's history? That's rhetorical. Because it is. The church has created committees to hunt and root out people. One of the most active committees that exists today is called the honor code at the church educational schools. That is, their principal job is root out evil, root out apostasy and sin within their institutions, and then expose that, bring it out to the light, and then publicly flog those people and then get them to change their behavior. But this. This has happened for decades, especially in Idaho. You should look up the Idaho Statesman's 1950s, where all these sting operations were happening. These gay people were being exposed.

Douglas [02:06:06] And.

Kyle Ashworth [02:06:06] And then the church went, oh, these people are Mormons. These are members of the church. These are bishops and stake presidents who are being caught up in these.

Brennen [02:06:13] These.

Kyle Ashworth [02:06:14] These gay stings. Now what do we do? We have to ship them out and get rid of them. So is there a witch hunt out there? Absolutely. And it still exists in 2022. So back to the point. I think it is terrible that we're in a situation where we're even laughing or joking at the fact that there is a area authority or a general authority 70 who is out there discussing this with stake president, saying, find them, get rid of them. And. And so my question is, what is the threat? Where is the threat? And having queer couples within your congregations, why is the church so afraid of LGBTQ couples?

Kyle Ashworth [02:06:47] Why is the church so afraid of this topic? And in. In my experience, in meeting with. With queer People, the church is losing the best and the brightest by excommunicating them and by turning them against the. The general membership of the church. The church is losing the best and the brightest.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] You're saying straight people suck? Is that what you're saying?

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:06] Well, I'm saying if we had more queer people in church leadership, could the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints look differently? Would there be levels of in. No, I get it. But would there be better levels of inclusion and diversity?

Guest [02:07:19] It's.

Brennen [02:07:20] It's.

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:20] It's just like the fact that over how Many were now 200 years in the existence of the church and how many African American or of black descent leadership roles have been given?

John Dehlin [02:07:31] Oh, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:32] Very, very few. And I think the diversity of the church, the overall general health of the church, has suffered because of its lack of diversity.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Totally thousand percent.

Douglas [02:07:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] I was just kidding you.

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:43] No, I know, I know.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] It's like having. Not having a brass section or not having a string section in the orchestra. It's. You're missing out.

Douglas [02:07:49] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:49] Everybody's singing and be flat and it's just not appealing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:52] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:53] And it's back to that echo chamber we talked about earlier.

John Dehlin [02:07:56] All right, let's continue, shall we? All right.

Family Impact and Feelings of Being Targeted

Brennen [02:08:03] It just feels like there was a witch hunt and I'm the witch. But what really hurt me was when my family was approached, my mother was under the impression that you were just updating member contact information, when really it was so you could find me for this meeting, call me, you can text me, or even email me. My email is in LDS tools. If this was truly an individual matter, I would appreciate my family not being brought into it. But you.

Brennen [02:08:32] You told me, Bishop, that you'd had an internal conflict regarding the church's position

Brennen [02:08:36] on same sex marriage. I'm not sure if it was the stake president that instructed for this council to occur, but given your internal conflict, my circumstances, and our past relationship, it's hard for me to imagine that you were the one pushing for this meeting to occur. I'm married to a man who I love very much, which is in opposition to the church's current teachings. But I don't believe I am sinning, and as such, I don't feel the need to repent. Hopefully, by me reading this, you can understand more fully where I'm coming from and why I believe the church's teachings on homosexuality are not inspired by God, why I believe the church is still harmful for the scam members, and why I think today's council is unnecessary in my current Circumstances.

Douglas [02:09:17] Okay, well. And Brennan, with having said that, I can tell you that I really appreciate some of the more recent, you know, direction we've received from the Church. One thing that I hope you don't feel, and obviously you do, is I don't feel like I'm on a witch hunt for you. I actually, I really have always enjoyed being around you. I've enjoyed conversations we've had the. When you said you were considering having your name removed from the records of the church, that's something that we can certainly do. If usually when we talk about a membership council, that would be more. For someone who says, I want to remain a member of the church Church or I believe, you know, the Church is true in what you just said, sounds like none of those things really

Brennen [02:10:10] apply to you, is that correct? I would say so. I think my understanding of membership councils, along the lines, I mean, traditionally they were called disciplinary councils in order to provide some kind of consequence for and performing certain actions as a member still having the records in the church, that some kind of discipline would then be applied.

Douglas [02:10:40] So usually it was more if someone wants to remain a member of the Church, this is what process has to happen in order to get into a position where you are. So for instance, if you have a married person who has, you know, commits adultery, has a relationship outside of their marriage,

Guest [02:11:02] they would have a.

Douglas [02:11:04] You know, back then it was called the disciplinary council. Now it's called membership council. And it would be kind of the same thing where you have one of those three outcomes that may be that you have withdrawal of membership, but it usually would also include recommendation of these little things that can happen for you to become a member of J again.

Douglas [02:11:23] And so I actually am aware of one of those that has happened or someone who was previously, previously had their membership with withdrawn from the church, joined the church again. And it's one that I hope in all of this, as you were reading, that I could just feel this wave of. I feel like I'm getting pinned down and that's not actually the desire of any. It.

Douglas [02:11:50] The other that I hold with all of it, you don't feel a sense of. That I dislike you anyway. It's quite the opposite. I think you're great and I hope that you're happy in your relationship.

Brennen [02:12:03] And I mean that's truly what I believe and that's why I said that at the end. It was hard for me to believe that you would be the one pushing for the membership council, considering all the factors. But I mean, I don't know Yeah,

Douglas [02:12:22] I feel like it does feel like it. I feel like we're out of the church for a while. Like inactivity I feel like should be like, you know, is there a thing where are we start cleaning out church membership, you know, or you know, because we live all the way in Boise and we're just enjoying our life and then, you know, we got our address.

Brennen [02:12:41] I was going to ask about that. If membership councils really were to kind of clarify whether or not somebody would like to remain in the church, then why aren't membership councils held for the 40, I think percent of the church that's inactive? In order to clarify those feelings, it'd be cool if we could send a letter to them saying would you like to have your records still remain in the church? If that was truly the intention of a membership council?

Douglas [02:13:17] Yes, with that. But actually that does happen. So there are a number of people

Brennen [02:13:20] that

Douglas [02:13:23] recently someone was upset they were contacted by a member of the church that's in our boundaries. They say, I'm really not interested in being a member of the church. And so the follow up was, do you want to have your records removed?

Brennen [02:13:36] I guess I'm trying to contrast. If it is to clarify a person's willingness or want to continue having their membership records in the church, then why would the church not then go seek out everyone who is inactive to clarify their intentions about the church?

Douglas [02:13:55] Oh, I would say they probably aren't.

Brennen [02:13:57] I was going to say within our

Douglas [02:13:58] ward, the relief society president and the eligible president, they try to contact every single patient, every single person who's a member of the church and the Lord founders. And in that conversation, that's one of the things that they say, hey, I really am not interested in the church at all. The follow up question is, are you looking to have your name remove the church? So you're asking the question and kind of that is happening.

Douglas [02:14:24] Well, do they come to their door and then bring a letter to that says that you need to do membership council? Because it seems like with enacted people you just call them like hey, are you still interested? Which this does not happen. Like you got our address which is, you know, kind of in our bubble a little bit, you know, and then that's why he said at the end like, why don't you just email me or text me and why. Yeah, why there's a letter already says disciplinary council without even talking to us first. Like, you know, it's truly to clarify

Brennen [02:14:58] the intentions of our membership.

Douglas [02:14:59] Sure.

Douglas [02:15:00] So yeah, it doesn't.

Douglas [02:15:02] The answer to your question is actually kind of two answers to it. The first one is when it comes to any sort of a membership council, the handbook does stipulate you have to send written notice. So and it has to be delivered in person.

Douglas [02:15:15] If it can't because of proximity or other things, then you can send it by certified mail with the return address. But that's one that there is no wiggle room on that. The other question that you asked is really, what about getting into our space? That's actually not the desire. And that's one of the things that we have when we meet with people who are not active in the church here in the ward. If you knock on their door and they say, hey, I haven't been to church for 10 years and I'm not interested in going to the church, that's one where sometimes they'll say, I really don't want to be contacted.

Douglas [02:15:49] And if that's the case, we put them on a do not contact list. In saying that they still remain a member of the church, there are some people that take it one step further. We say, not only do I want

Guest [02:15:57] to be contacted, I don't want to

Douglas [02:15:58] be a member of the church, I want to be out. And so that's one where that, you know, they work with me and I

Brennen [02:16:07] can make that happen.

Douglas [02:16:08] Yeah, but the thing, Sorry, the thing is was that if they're inactive, you would get clarification with them before you send out a letter. Right. Or do you just send out a letter straight to them to the Relief

Brennen [02:16:22] Society, come to their house and deliver a letter?

Douglas [02:16:25] You know, because if everyone deserve a disciplinary council except for us, that's why it feels like a membership, you know,

Douglas [02:16:32] kind of a persecutor a little bit.

Douglas [02:16:34] Just because we're gay, you know, like.

Brennen [02:16:36] Well, not specifically because we're gay, but our actions and being married contradicts church teachings. That's what I'm trying to get at is that this. It feels less of a membership council and more disciplinary council because of the topic at hand, less of clarifying the.

Douglas [02:16:55] It's not the same as being inactive

Brennen [02:16:57] is what I'm trying to get at.

Douglas [02:16:58] Right. So being inactive again, you'd never have a membership council for someone who is inactive.

Douglas [02:17:03] That.

Douglas [02:17:04] That actually doesn't happen at all. In the case of. So let's say someone was a cabinet posit heterosexual and.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] Okay, did you want to say something to that Brit?

Brennen [02:17:17] Yeah, really quick. He just said when someone is an inactive, you do not hold a membership council. I've been inactive for four years. Why am I being called to this council?

John Dehlin [02:17:25] I think what he meant is no one can be excommunicated on the basis of being inactive. Yeah, I think that's what he was saying.

Brennen [02:17:32] But I mean, just because they're pressuring

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:35] him to say, are you going to enact the people and handing them out letters?

John Dehlin [02:17:39] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:39] Is that what you're doing? And he's saying, he's like, right.

Brennen [02:17:43] He's trying to paint this picture that, like, everyone who's inactive in the church is being treated equally, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:49] Right.

Brennen [02:17:49] That we do go and check in with you and you know, but the fact is I was never checked up on. I never had a really society or elders quorum, you know, yeah, come to me and you know, check in with me or. Yeah, they say, you know, we, we do that. We go and we check in with our members. I was never checked in. My first interaction. Interaction with the church in three years because I had talked to him three years ago was a letter. That was it.

Kyle Ashworth [02:18:18] And let's keep this in, in just in good context. This bishop is so effective at his job at contacting members that he was able to not only contact all the members in his ward, but he was even able to go contact members in a stake clear across the other side of Idaho and, and follow up on those members too. I just wanted to say kudos to that bishop. He's on top of it, where he's able to have all of the time and energy and effort to not only take care of his ward and follow up on every inactive, but also start hunting down inactives that don't even live in his ward.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:50] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [02:18:51] That haven't been part of. Of his word for years and years and years and, and bring them into. I just think that that is a story of success. We should see this on a Mormon ad really quickly. The second thing, this whole time I just wanted to just like scream, objection, your honor, leading the witness, he just. How many times is he going to try to push you to resign your membership? In this conversation, he just kept bringing.

Brennen [02:19:12] It gets, it gets even worse again.

Kyle Ashworth [02:19:14] Like, no, you just want to resign. Right? You just want to just. You don't want this to happen. You just want to get rid of your membership today. Right, right, right, right. Your honor, stop this. Like, quit leading on the witness. Just let him answer the questions.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:26] Yeah, something that's really. And I didn't find out this later, but after the disciplinary council, after the calls with the bishop and sick person, I actually went and read the whole handbook section and There is this very. On the resignation section, there is this sentence that says that bishops should not recommend members to resign to avoid a membership council.

Brennen [02:19:52] But all of his line of questioning and what he's saying to me is basically him recommending it to me.

Kyle Ashworth [02:19:58] And this is, this goes back to our discussion about is there a general authority out there walking the streets of Zion speaking to stake presidents and offering them certain pieces of advice. And the answer to that is I believe it's yes. And I believe I know who it is and I believe I know where he's been because that very option has been given and to multiple people throughout Utah, Idaho, Nevada and Arizona with those options, either you attend the. The disciplinary council and face excommunication or membership withdrawal or you resign your membership. Oh, sorry, attendees, I should back up. The first is always divorce or separate in your arranged in your marriage.

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:40] So they offer you the opportunity to disentangle yourself from this legal and lawful wedding. So if you're a gay married couple in a relationship, in a marriage that's legal and lawful, the Church gives you the first option of divorcing, of separating, creating distance between that relationship. That's option number one. Option number two is then if you don't choose to do that, then you can come before the council and receive this court of love, the Care Bear experience in this membership.

Brennen [02:21:06] Experience, experience, membership, disciplinary council.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:09] Or number three, they offer you an opportunity. And this isn't on an official church record, but I keep seeing this pop up in stake after stake.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:16] It's contradicted like it's, it's against, completely against the handbook.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:19] But the, these stake presidents are now saying you could just resign your membership, remove your name from the records of the Church and this all goes away.

John Dehlin [02:21:27] And what that's about is the Church knows. Well, first of all, why did they ch. I mean, is there any difference between a membership council and a disciplinary council? No. Is there any. Is there any difference between, you know, excommunication and removal of membership? No, it's exactly the same, other than the optics, which is it makes the Church look medieval and barbaric because the Catholic Church was excommunicating people in the 14th or 15th century and the Mormon Church is still doing it in the 21st century. So it makes them look barbaric. They don't want those negative associations. So instead of actually improving, they change the name.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] Yeah, somehow that's going to be different. It's not an excommunication, it's a removal of membership. But they want to avoid all that, and so they're going to want to pressure. And they do this every single time. I've never seen them not do this. They always pressure the people to resign first because the Church knows that it's embarrassing, it looks bad, it's bad optics. It's not Christ. Like, where did Jesus say, for behold, my brethren, I say unto you, go ye out therefore into the world. And anyone who is not living my word, make sure and excommunicate them through a membership council. Like, nowhere did Jesus ever say anything about excommunication or disciplinary councils.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] So, so it's embarrassing, it's cringy, it's medieval. And so they want to pressure you proactively to, to resign so that they don't have to be hung.

Kyle Ashworth [02:22:58] And I just want to make sure this is on the record. So Jesus did not say, brethren of the Isles of Patmos, please excommunicate or seek out those who are not active here and in the American continent. Take it upon yourself. So, and again, that's back to where we're at. Again we have a single bishop who is, who is hunting people down in, outside of his boundaries.

Kyle Ashworth [02:23:21] Back to the optics side of it as well. I mean, this does hurt the overall. Sometimes we say some of the greatest change happens. Well, the Latter Day Saints will say it's because of revelation, but it's probably likely because of a survey they have been surveying Latter Day Saints and the optics. The survey results regarding excommunication are so dire and, and result in so many mixed negative feelings.

Kyle Ashworth [02:23:47] The Church can only turn away from excommunications. And I think that's part of this optics that we're talking about getting rid of the Cord of Love, getting rid of the Bishop's court, then moving it into a disciplinary council, and then even softening that language to this membership council. This is soft and this is nice. This is like a family home evening get together where we sit together and just discuss the issues of your family.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:10] So when the Church changed the wording membership council, you know, and instead of disciplinary councils, my first thought, one of my first thoughts was that the, one of the reasons why they were doing was to confuse the language and make it so similar to removing your records, withdrawal membership, removing your records, you know, so that there's so much confusion that they look the same when you actually, when you go and, and read the handbook, they're completely separate things. Like there's a real process for member resignation till today that the bishop is supposed to meet with you, try to solve your concerns. He needs to get like a signed letter from you and then he has to give it to the stake president.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:59] The sacred has to submit it to the lcr. It's like a whole process completely different to the actual disciplinary council. But my, one of my thoughts was that they were changing the wording so that members would be confused and merge those two together. And that's exactly what happened to Brennan. And I didn't talk to them about it, and I didn't explain the terms to them. So Brennan, when the bishop is saying this and using all this wording, that's what happened to Brennan. Brennan was confused. We're going to hear it later in the, the conversation. But okay, is it like, do I re, like remove my records?

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:37] But you're gonna remove my records? Or, but with the membership withdrawals, or are you gonna withdraw my membership? Should I, should I withdraw my membership? So it's just like, very, very confusing.

Kyle Ashworth [02:25:47] I just love how the gospel is so plain and simple.

John Dehlin [02:25:49] Well, Jesus, who did Jesus condemn? It's all the legalistic Pharisees and Sadducees, right, that were making the gospel so bureaucratic. So legalistic. And just hearing how bureaucratic this entire conversation is, where's the love? Where's the pastoral nature? Where's the emotion? Where's the empathy? It's just, it's missing.

Kyle Ashworth [02:26:10] Oh, it definitely was missing from Boise.

Brennen [02:26:12] Yes, yes, it was. And I mean, we'll hear it. But that's what I started to ask Because I was like, is this what excommunication is? Because the, I mean, the before terms were a lot easier to understand. Resignation, disfellowship, excommunication. People can be able to pick those apart and they. Exactly what it means. But like Krato said, the, the wording now is very confusing.

Breaking News and the Push to Resign Membership

John Dehlin [02:26:35] So yeah, let's, I, I, I'll just, I just received an email that I think is relevant. It's kind of breaking news. But the email says Elder Quinton Cook recently had a training in a certain region of the United States. And during the training, he mentioned that the First Presidency has noticed that the number of membership councils has declined recently and that this is distressing to them. Elder Cook encouraged us not to share, shy away from membership councils, that we should not be fearful of people leaving the church if we hold councils. He said the First Presidency stated that we should be compassionate and loving, but also bold. And not forget, justice is also important.

Brennen [02:27:17] Don't forget your muskets. That's, that's all I got from that.

John Dehlin [02:27:20] So that's breaking news. Okay, should we. Should we jump in and keep going?

Brennen [02:27:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:27:24] All right, here we go.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [02:27:29] They were married and they left and they were now living with someone else. Right. So I just like to clarify because it seems like that's one of your questions. Am I being picked on because I'm gay? Right. That's not the answer. So if someone is in that same situation and they went and they were living with someone else, then once it's. Once it's clear that they are doing that, then, yeah, you'd have a membership council.

Video Clip 6 [02:27:53] Yeah, I don't.

Video Clip 6 [02:27:54] I don't think it was. At least in my point of view, it was anything to do with us identifying as gay.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:02] It was.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:03] It kind of is.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:04] I. I mean, being gay, but also married.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:07] My point is it's not for celibate

Video Clip 6 [02:28:10] and, you know, whatever it might be, then we wouldn't have been contacted.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:14] Let me. Let me make this point here. It's not to clarify and clear out church membership. It's for disciplinary council, like, specifically because

Video Clip 6 [02:28:23] we're in a gay marriage.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:26] I mean, if someone said, hey, I am gay, I don't actually agree. So if you had read me that same letter, you know, three weeks ago, I'd say, oh, Brandon, it sounds like you don't want to be a member of the church. It sounds like you want your name off the records of the church. And then we don't have a membership council. This is really only if someone still wants to remain a member of the church.

Video Clip 6 [02:28:47] I mean, I did tell you over the phone that I had intentions of removing my records. So I maybe feel like that would have satisfied my intention or, you know, my. My lack of belief in the church, whatever. Maybe you could assume why I wanted to remove my records. But even with that, we're still having this counsel, even though I express that issue over the phone and I'm willing to be here. And my. I would have been fine just sending in a letter and removing my records,

Video Clip 6 [02:29:22] but

Video Clip 6 [02:29:25] being called to this council made me want to come and state my case and why I disagree with what the church does and again, why I feel like the council wasn't necessary. And, you know, what we talk about.

Video Clip 6 [02:29:42] Well, that's kind of what we were saying at the very beginning. If you're already there, then I think that you probably kind of stop the whole thing. When I spoke to you on the phone, you seem to say, you seem to be hesitant in your decision. I've been wondering about that. I've been thinking about it. Just so you know, we would never Remove someone's name from the records of the church if they just say those exact same things. In fact, usually they have to give a written letter saying they want to have the name removed.

Video Clip 6 [02:30:09] Right? Definitely. Yeah. I mean, hopefully. I mean, can't go on the past now, but that would call for some clarifying questions of. Do you still wish to. I mean, I, I still did say that I've been having the intention of removing my records. And so if, if, if that was enough, then again, then we wouldn't have this counsel.

Video Clip 6 [02:30:37] Well, and that's actually what I'm asking you right now.

Video Clip 6 [02:30:39] It sounds like that's the.

Video Clip 6 [02:30:40] That is your answer, right? You want your name removed from the

Video Clip 6 [02:30:43] records of the church. Is that not what you had gotten over the phone when we talked, or was it. I mean, you said you felt a feeling of hesitancy, that.

Video Clip 6 [02:30:53] Right. So when he spoke on the phone, it wasn't this direct. It was one of those. I've been wondering what to do about it. I think that was, that was the way I recalled that conversation.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:03] Yeah.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:03] I've been wondering what to do.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:05] It's. I mean, it's, it's hard to go back to a conversation that's over now. But yeah, I mean, I haven't. I still have intentions of removing my records and I'm okay if it is because I'm married to Doug. I would, I prefer that it happens that way. I'd rather, I'd rather go away unclean than, I don't know, go away in a pine box. So.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:34] Okay, you mentioned that last part.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:36] Yeah.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:36] What I, what I mean is I, I'm okay with having my. And I probably prefer to have my records removed on the basis of me being in a same sex marriage.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:46] I.

Video Clip 6 [02:31:50] Good way to put it. Yeah. I don't want to remove my records for nothing just because I'm a lack of belief. I'd rather have my records removed with the reasoning of me being married to Doug. If that's what a forceful removal or excommunication, if that's what that means, I'm okay with that. And I personally, I would probably prefer that. That sounds weird that, like, I would

Video Clip 6 [02:32:25] prefer that, but

Video Clip 6 [02:32:28] I would like to go out being married to my husband and not for an inconspicuous reason that could come up.

Video Clip 6 [02:32:39] So I like to make sure that we're really clear in this because clearly I didn't understand our phone conversation before. Are you asking to have your name removed from the records of the church or are you asking for us to complete the Membership council.

Video Clip 6 [02:32:54] What do you mean, complete the membership council?

Video Clip 6 [02:32:56] Yeah. So what I mean is, are you saying I'd like to have my name removed from the records of the church? And people can do that with, you know, anyone can walk in here tomorrow, I get asked, president, or hey, I'd

Video Clip 6 [02:33:13] like to have my name removed from

Video Clip 6 [02:33:13] the records of the church. Give them a written letter and they will remove my name from the records. Is that what you would like to

Video Clip 6 [02:33:21] have happen here or moving forward with the membership council?

Video Clip 6 [02:33:26] Right.

Video Clip 6 [02:33:29] I think I, I'd rather move forward with everything building up to this council

Video Clip 6 [02:33:38] and

Video Clip 6 [02:33:41] my thoughts on the church and even whether the council would have been necessary, I'd rather move forward with her. I don't feel like I just have a lack of solemn belief. I, I truly don't think the church is inspired by God, if it ever was.

Video Clip 6 [02:34:10] So once again, you give a great. You're a very eloquent person, granted. Sometimes I'm just not sure.

Video Clip 6 [02:34:14] No, you're good.

Video Clip 6 [02:34:15] I would like to move forward with council.

Video Clip 6 [02:34:16] Okay. So complete the council, have a deliberation and then decision that way.

Video Clip 6 [02:34:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:22] So really quickly, I just want to kind of just having been through one of these. I'm not gay, but I've been through a disciplinary council. I just want to kind of restate what I hear happening here in the Mormon Church. You know, Mormons sometimes want to say they don't believe in hell, but they do, because in heaven, there's like the highest degree of heaven where you get to be a God and you get to be married and have lots of children and go rule other over other, you know, universes or planets.

Brennen [02:34:54] Well, not anymore.

John Dehlin [02:34:55] No, no, I know you're joking, but. But actually it is true.

Brennen [02:34:58] Right?

John Dehlin [02:34:58] And that's what Russell and Nelson down.

Kyle Ashworth [02:35:00] But we don't talk about it.

John Dehlin [02:35:01] But we don't talk about it.

Guest [02:35:02] Bruno. Right.

John Dehlin [02:35:03] So there's that and then there's like the terrestrial and the celestial kingdom and outer darkness, where in all those kingdoms you are separated from your family for eternity.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:14] You'll probably lose.

John Dehlin [02:35:15] And you're a servant. You're literally a servant to the people that do achieve godhood. So you're kind of, you're, you're neutered, you're spayed or neutered. And you're destined to eternal servitude where you're not able to be with your parents or your siblings or your children.

John Dehlin [02:35:34] To any reasonable person, that's hell. Right? Audience who think about whoever you love, if you live after you die, whoever it is you love. Now think about never, ever seeing them again, ever being living apart from them and living apart from God.

John Dehlin [02:35:52] That for eternity. Not just, you know, a thousand years, ten thousand years for eternity. It is hell. It is what Mormons call spiritual death. That's what Mormons call spiritual death. That's doctrine. So basically, I don't think I'm being overly dramatic here. He's hunting you down.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] He's not doing this to pedophiles. He's not doing this to murders, he's not doing this to rapists. He's not doing this to spouse abusers. You know, boy, all the thousands of Boy Scout abusers in the church. It's not. He's not doing it to them. He's hunting down a legally lawful, happily married couple, hunting them down and saying, we either want to murder you spiritually or, or we'd rather have you murder yourself spiritually, but if you won't murder yourself spiritually, then we're going to have to murder you spiritually. It's like die by. Die by spiritual suicide or we're going to do it for you. I mean, that's really what he's doing here. And it's, it's ridiculous.

Shift in Tone During the Council Recording

Kyle Ashworth [02:36:50] Well, and I think I noticed such a shift in tone when we're just listening to the, the way the bishop was speaking in the initial part of the disciplinary council. And then I think eloquently, both of you, both Doug and Brennan just stuck to your guns and just said this, this is our position. We feel like this is a witch hunt. We're not active in your ward. We're not even living in your ward boundaries. We don't attend your congregation. We're not attending any congregation. You sought us out. We cannot but only feel like you are hunting us because of our sexuality. And then when you, when he just, just continue to, to strike, saying, resign your membership, get rid of your.

Kyle Ashworth [02:37:32] Do this on your own. Do this on your own. And when you were insistent that you weren't going to do that, it was like there was this shift happen. Like the bishop then started to reel, saying, this is not going where we thought it was going to go. And he didn't have enough excuses to try to justify him not hunting you down.

Guest [02:37:48] He.

Kyle Ashworth [02:37:48] There were no more excuses left. And I thought that was interesting because then the whole tone of the bishop, that demeanor just sounded differently where the bishop is like, oh, no, do they. Are they on to us? Did we really hunt them down just because. Because as you continue to provide evidence after evidence after evidence that there is only one logical reason why I'm sitting in this disciplinary council today. It's because I'm married. And as John said, legally and lawfully. And when the bishop had no other answers, no other reasons for you being there, it's time to start creating reasons. It's time to start coming up with something that sounds like, oh, no, it's definitely not because you're gay. It's definitely not because you're married. It's definitely not because you live in my word, because you don't. It's got to be something new, it's got to be something different.

Brennen [02:38:37] And we're going to say there's going to be a lot more reasons that the Bishop will come up with for holding this council later. Never, never will it be acknowledged that this council was held. Well, actually we did get it on record, but it always is shying away from that fact. And I'll just help for same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] And I'll just say I really relate. You know, a lot of, a lot of the apologists, they want the, you know, just like the men in the room looking at their watches, looking at the walls, not giving you eye contact. A lot of the apologists or believers listening want this to go away. So they're like, why didn't you just resign? You should have just resigned. You didn't even value your membership.

John Dehlin [02:39:14] I relate to wanting to force them to be and show who they are. They want you to make the decision so they're not. They hunt you down, but then they want you to pull the trigger so that they're not responsible. And it was the same thing with me. What did I do? I started a podcast. I gave a TED talk encouraging Mormons to support same sex marriage. I supported ordination for women.

John Dehlin [02:39:38] They wanted me to resign. And when I wouldn't, then, then, you know, then they, I, I forced them to excommunicate me so that people could see their true colors and they couldn't hide behind my resignation.

Brennen [02:39:50] Yeah. And that, and that's how I felt leaving this council is that I, I kind of, I was, I, I called my siblings afterwards and I was like, I kind of in essence chose my own recommendation for excommunication. I, I chose to move forward with the council. So I kind of in essence chose to be excommunicated. That's, that's how it felt leaving. And I feel because he's giving me these options and these decisions. And I chose to move forward with the council.

John Dehlin [02:40:16] So, yeah, so people could see the church's true Colors.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:20] But this analogy is so. I think it's such a good analogy. Like they're basically giving you a gun, they're holding a gun, they're giving you a gun, and they're saying, you pull the trigger or we will.

Brennen [02:40:30] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:30] I mean.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:31] Who, what person in the right mind would pull the trigger themselves?

John Dehlin [02:40:35] And we'd rather you pull the trigger so that we don't look bad.

Brennen [02:40:38] Exactly. Right, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:40:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:40] We're going to load.

Kyle Ashworth [02:40:40] We're getting the powder inside of that is our policy, our doctrine, our dissonance, our ignorance, our bigotry, our prejudice, all of these things that are loaded to charge the bullet that actually does the destruction. Those are all mixed inside of that bullet where they say, well, it doesn't matter really who pulled the trigger. At the end of the day, it really was just the doctrine that got. You were just violating this doctrine. You're violating this policy that is this, this part of this, this frustrating portion of membership. Councils that pit good people against each other.

Guest [02:41:08] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:41:08] And, and just like you had mentioned, John, in, in your excommunication, this is, this is so relatable to so many of them. Whether it's on a stake level with 15 men in the room or on a ward level with Brennan and. And Doug's situation with three other men in the four other men in the room, there is always uncomfortableness because many of those people and the letter that was written, the, the, the quotes that were given are so logical that those Latter Day Saints who are sitting as judges of Israel in those disciplinary councils have to look at that and say, oh, my gosh, what are we doing? What are we doing?

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:44] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:41:45] And that's got to be frustrating. That's got to be heartbreaking.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:50] Okay. Should we keep going?

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:52] All right. There's more.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:55] Here we go.

Douglas [02:41:59] What? What?

Brennen [02:42:01] I guess more would be in completing the council.

Douglas [02:42:05] Actually, we've already had. This is kind of what you read was perfect. The. So we'll excuse you and we'll have a conversation. Any other question?

Brennen [02:42:23] Yeah, I'm good. I think it's. I think it's clear where everybody is.

Douglas [02:42:26] Okay. So. And then do you guys have any other questions?

Douglas [02:42:33] When do I get a letter next?

Brennen [02:42:35] This is for Brennan.

Douglas [02:42:36] Okay.

Guest [02:42:37] Yeah.

Douglas [02:42:37] Well, that's the thing is it would be your, your bishop, either of your current ward or of your family.

Brennen [02:42:46] You know, I guess that's maybe a question you could answer, because I don't talk to an average bishop very often. What's. If the general handbook has kind of these, like, clear Instructions on what's to happen in this case and what a membership council is defined as and all of that. I guess what would keep like Doug's bishop from contacting him ever, if at all, versus with me. Is that on a bishop by bishop basis or does that come from the area authority?

Douglas [02:43:38] No, there's a couple of things. It's similar to if you were to go to the various wards throughout the church. There are some that are very good about contacting every member within their boundaries. There are some that are not very good about contacting every member within their boundaries. And so those are probably going to be the biggest reasons that there would be differences in that whole thing. Does that make sense?

Douglas [02:44:02] Yeah, because I know my Ella's quorum president knows that I'm gay and married to a gay man.

Douglas [02:44:07] He.

Douglas [02:44:08] We had a conversation, but there was never a follow up. So that, in that way, that's why partly I feel like, you know, maybe

Brennen [02:44:16] Brennan has a special case that was

Douglas [02:44:18] kind of being sought out a little bit, but I never was contacted, you know, a follow up meeting. Maybe he's not a good elders quorum president.

Douglas [02:44:29] I wouldn't say that. I'm just saying, you know, there can be various reasons that people do or don't. So when I lived in Philadelphia, I think the, if you looked at the number of members of the church and the number of people that actually came to church, their hands were full. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you have 40 of the people that come to church and 60 that don't, you go contact them on a monthly basis. It's virtually impossible. Makes sense.

Brennen [02:45:01] Yeah.

Douglas [02:45:01] Yeah. And I don't think it's because someone does a bad job. Just sometimes every handsome

Brennen [02:45:11] or you're an ER doctor, you know, busy, busy times. I guess the other question I did have is

John Dehlin [02:45:22] basically what he just said. There is if. If you have too many inactives in your ward, you don't have time to go hunt down the gay people and excommunicate.

Brennen [02:45:31] But if we did have all the time in the world, everybody would be having a membership council.

Guest [02:45:34] But.

Brennen [02:45:35] But we just don't have the time. And Covid's playing a role too, so we just don't have the time to do it.

Kyle Ashworth [02:45:39] But I'm so good and I'm so efficient that I'm able to do not only my ward, but also hunt down people outside of my ward boundaries, outside of my stake boundaries, who I haven't talked.

Brennen [02:45:47] Who I haven't talked to in three, three years.

Kyle Ashworth [02:45:49] And clearly by the power of revelation. I also know that they're not active in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:53] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:45:54] Even though I really don't know that.

John Dehlin [02:45:55] Yeah. I mean, it's so weird because none of us are living the Gospel. None of us are. He's not. He probably masturbates. Like, it's almost, it's almost a guarantee that. That bishop masturbates.

Brennen [02:46:05] Oh, Lordy.

John Dehlin [02:46:06] It's. You know, Most men do. 90% of men do. We've had many, many bishops, former bishops, come on Mormon stories and say they masturbated while they were bishops. Yes. Like they could hunt down everyone. But is that what Jesus was about? Hunting down the sinner? Like, who knows if in five or ten years you might want to come back to church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:46:26] Why are they proactively hunting down people that they think are sinners? That's question number one. And question number two is why are they. Why are they focusing on the same sex married ones? And by the way, it seems like there's a bigger priority against same sex married gay people than like single gay people that aren't same sex married. So it's almost like you get punished for living a healthy, loving, monogamous relationship, but if you just want to be a single gay person hooking up all over the place, or a straight person hooking up all over the place who's single, they don't care about that. So why. Why are you penalized for. For getting legally lawfully married in a loving, committed relationship.

Kyle Ashworth [02:47:08] Right.

John Dehlin [02:47:08] Why is that penalized?

Brennen [02:47:09] Which is exactly. Relationship.

Guest [02:47:11] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:47:11] Which is exactly the problem that we have in this whole discussion. It is. If indeed, as Elder Oak said in 2019, that homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships will be treated the exact same way. How is this possible? How are we in the situation? Because you're exactly right.

Kyle Ashworth [02:47:28] If, I mean, someone brought this up on the chat yesterday. When has the church. Or is the church attacking all the. The soakers or the jump humpers or the people who run to BYU or run to Las Vegas and get married so they can have sex and then annul the marriage and run back to BYU again?

Kyle Ashworth [02:47:45] If we're really and just honestly. This isn't just rhetorical or rhetoric. If we're honestly approaching this topic in a equal, bilateral fashion, then where are, where are the excommunications? Where are the membership council? I'm not seeing them and I see. Feel like I'm pretty close to the. The ground. I feel like I'm. I'm involved in this community enough. Usually when people go through this. This topic, it's pretty well known, but the ones that we hear the most and the ones that create the most dissonance are those that surround the LGBTQ topic.

John Dehlin [02:48:16] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:48:16] And we haven't even discussed the transgender side of this yet. We're only discussing people who are in same sex relationships or marriages.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:25] I was talking to a former stake president about this case case after the disciplinary council and everything was going on. He brought up a really good point. And I just pulled this up on the hammock of instructions. It says that the. Re. The. The purpose of membership councils and membership withdrawal is, number one, help protect others.

Douglas [02:48:44] There's three.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:45] There's only three. Number two, help a person access the redeeming power of Jesus Christ through repentance.

Kyle Ashworth [02:48:51] This next one is the whole reason why this is happening.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:53] But the. And protect the integrity of the church. How is it. But the thing is, like, how is the church protected? How is the church's integrity protected when these guys are inactive?

Douglas [02:49:06] Not even going to church, even say anything about church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:10] Not saying anything about church like this makes no sense. It falls under none of these three categories.

Kyle Ashworth [02:49:17] And if this is a church about family, if this is a church about familial relationships and. And creating this eternal bond, why are we breaking up? Why are we offering or making gay couples, giving them the invitation to divorce and to separate that family? Why are we. As Elder Oak said, I wouldn't want to take my kids into public. I wouldn't want to show you off to my friends. I don't want you to stay as a lengthy house guest. If there are young children in the home, I don't want my gay son or daughter to be involved with the. The young children in the home.

Kyle Ashworth [02:49:47] If this truly is a church about family, why are we set? Why are we creating those divides? And. And I still don't have an answer to that. And this just back to kind of that point that you brought up, Gerardo. Why is it that. What is the great gay threat to Mormonism? Why can. Why can we not see gay couples sitting in pews across Zion? Why is the church so afraid of seeing LGBTQ couples in its views? What is the great threat?

John Dehlin [02:50:14] As the only straight person in this room, I can tell you what the threat is. What. What. What was fatal to my homophobia? It was meeting gay people and looking them in the eye and talking to them and getting to know them and seeing that their love was literally no different than my love.

Kyle Ashworth [02:50:31] You realize that everything that was taught over that pulpit does not match the Rhetoric or does not match the real lived experiences of the LGBTQ people.

John Dehlin [02:50:38] The first gay person I actually talked to was when I was working in Chicago as a computer program. And I didn't know for months he was gay. And. And he was just super helpful and generous and kind to me and really nice and friendly and talented. And then one day I said a homophobic thing at work, and everyone turned to me and they said, john, have you ever known a gay person? I'm like, well, no, but what does that matter? And then. And then Mike spoke up and said, well, I'm gay. And the first. And I was like, for the first time, I'm like, wow, okay.

John Dehlin [02:51:10] Hi, Mike. You've been really nice to me. I'm sorry I said a rude thing. And then over the next few months, we had talks, and the thing that came up for me and him was, well, the gay lifestyle. And, you know, I told this talk in my TED Talk. I told the story of my TED Talk, but he's like, my. My gay lifestyle is like waking up with my partner, having coffee, having breakfast, getting ready for work, going to work, working all day, coming home, having dinner with my partner, washing the dishes, watching a show, and going to bed. And I thought, huh, that sounds a lot like me and Margi.

John Dehlin [02:51:45] And at that point, I'm like, well, that's actually beautiful. Why are we fighting this? But it was getting to have that conversation, so that's the most dangerous thing. And so the church has to get. Purge you all from the rolls so that you're not on the rolls, so that. So that visiting teachers or home teachers or ministers don't come out and find you, heaven forbid, and get to know you and look you in the eye and see you holding hands, seeing the lovely couple that you are, seeing your happiness, and then having to sit with the knowledge that this is actually beautiful, healthy love. Why is the church fighting this? That's. That's the threat.

Kyle Ashworth [02:52:26] It absolutely defies the rhetoric we've had decades and decades and decades of a homophobic church that has spewed out rhetoric that says there is no happiness. There are no spiritual experiences. There is no joy on this side of the aisle. And then around the kitchen table, here are these Latter Day Saint families who have a son or a daughter or a spouse who comes out and they look across the kitchen table and they say to themselves, oh, my gosh, my son, my daughter, my spouse is none of the things that I heard of over the pulpit. They aren't void of the spirit. They aren't guilty of, of grooming or pedophilia or any of the awful things that have been taught.

Kyle Ashworth [02:53:03] They aren't unqualified for the Spirit. They, they aren't any of these things. And so the great threat is that the rhetoric, that the revelation, the doctrine, the policy will be contradicted by the real lived experiences of real human beings. And that is probably the death knell of this topic. And it just didn't extend to something simple like a kitchen table discussion. It wasn't something like, as dramatic as a membership council or a disciplinary council. But when something like monumental like the November 2015 policy came out, where the church labeled gay people in marriages or long or committed relationships as apostates and started excommunicating them, but also not only just the excommunication and the apostasy, but then prohibited 8 year old children from being baptized into the church, the children of these gay couples that caused mass casualty within the church.

Kyle Ashworth [02:54:05] Not only we can discuss suicidality among the LGBTQ community, but as Greg Prince accurately pointed out, over 60,000 members of the church resigned their membership immediately in the aftermath of the November 2015 policy. And then he even brought up in the Liberty well state, just miles from where we're broadcasting right now in Salt Lake City. 10% of the stake resigned their membership as a result of the 2015 policy.

Kyle Ashworth [02:54:30] That November 5, 2015 policy. And why was that? It's because the Latter Day Saints looked at the rhetoric, the years and years and years, decades of rhetoric against gay people. They, they merged that with the real lived experiences of someone that they loved. And when they realized that those two didn't match, they sided with love. They sided with honor and dignity. It was people first, not policy, not pulpit. They chose the person first. And when they did that, that dissonance was, was created. It wasn't that someone like a Brennan or a Douglas created this, this new narrative and, and was appalling and, and second guessing what church leaders did.

Kyle Ashworth [02:55:07] This was just a matter of love. This is a matter of constant acceptance and better inclusion. These are all the things that aren't we, we're looking for all of these things in a religious society. We want inclusion and love and, and not a prejudicial society.

Kyle Ashworth [02:55:21] And yet the ways we're finding it is through people who have actually left the church. To me, it's, it's sad. To me it's, it's unfortunate.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:29] And also it's suicidal for the church because the, the 20 somethings, the teens, the 20 somethings, The Gen Zers, the millennials, they're not having any of this. So that we know that upwards of 80% of the kids raised Mormon in the United States are leaving the church. And the LGBT issues is for sure, right up there is one of the top reasons they're leaving. So it's. The church is actually harming itself by. By doing this.

Kyle Ashworth [02:55:56] I'll say it again and again. They are losing the best and the brightest among them. And. And in my position, hosting a podcast where we share the stories of the LGBTQ people, I don't. I really am not concerned about whether they stay in the church or leave the church. I'm concerned, and my work and my advocacy is creating places where people are no longer harmed. You can attend the church, you can leave the church. I don't care. But if you're going to attend a church or if you're going to attend an organization, I don't want that organization hurting people.

John Dehlin [02:56:26] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:56:26] I want that harm to go away, and then you can find that sense of community. Community, wherever that lands. But for an organization that continues to hurt people, that's what I'm against. That's my advocacy. I don't want to see people get

Gerardo Sumano [02:56:36] hurt a little bit.

Douglas [02:56:38] Agreed.

John Dehlin [02:56:41] Okay. All right, let's. Let's see how this ends. We're almost. We're. We're coming to the end of this part. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Douglas [02:56:55] Shoot.

Guest [02:56:56] Hello.

John Dehlin [02:56:57] Hey. Sorry. Let me just go back. Oh, man. I don't know the exact time.

Douglas [02:57:03] Oh, there. And I don't think it's because someone does a bad job. Just sometimes you have your hands full

Brennen [02:57:13] or you're an ER doc. You know, busy, busy times. I guess the other question I did have is. I mean, it's. It's up to you. It's up to you to answer, but

Douglas [02:57:31] I know you.

Brennen [02:57:32] You said you had, I guess, some internal conflict. Was this a recommendation from your state president or.

Douglas [02:57:42] So we did have some guidance from the state leadership.

Brennen [02:57:44] Right. Because I know from what, from what I read, the Stake president kind of, you have to have permission from him in order to do it. And so, yeah, coming into here, it was just hard. It's hard for me to believe that you read, you know, that you were really wanting this to occur, especially when membership councils for same sex marriage are not required. And there's. You have every option not to do it because it's not quite required versus, I don't know, incest or whatever other case it is where. Right.

Douglas [02:58:22] The. And that's when we talk about these types of Things, Brandon, when I was called as a bishop and they said, you'll be a common judge in Israel, I said, well, I hope I have a conviction record of zero. They laughed at that then.

Brennen [02:58:39] It's probably not going to happen.

Douglas [02:58:41] In saying that with this type of council again, I still have the sense for me to feel like, hey, I'm being punished here. That's really not the purpose of a membership council. There are times that people will do things that they're like, yeah, that's going to be in contrast to what a member can. You know, the conduct of a member. And when that is the case, then, you know, what. What are the steps that you take from where we are now to being a member in full fellowship? So I remember hearing someone ask over Holland about this, where they said, so is your objective to say you're in or you're out? And he said, our objective is to have everybody in but everybody in, following the same standards and the same guidelines.

Brennen [02:59:35] Right.

Douglas [02:59:36] So if you take their coffee and tobacco or alcohol analogy from Greece, all those things are legal, but if you want to be a member of the church, you have to not do that.

Guest [02:59:46] Right.

Douglas [02:59:48] And so that's really more the thought of membership council. So having said all that, it's one that when we first. When you first said that, that last meeting we had in my office, again, I think it was two years ago at that time, I think you were dating. And I said, well, you'd be welcome to come to church meetings. That's actually still the case. Some of these people say, well, why would I want to come? That's. That's one where everyone is inviting to come. You know, you'd still be welcome to come. But if someone wants to be a member in full fellowship, there are certain, you know, have to kind of live according to certain standards there. All right.

Brennen [03:00:40] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:41] I want to say something really quick.

John Dehlin [03:00:42] Yeah, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:44] I think it's really interesting how he keeps comparing and he will do it over and over again, comparing their case with violating the word of wisdom.

John Dehlin [03:00:52] Yeah, coffee. Coffee, alcohol and tobacco.

Brennen [03:00:55] Because that's not excommunicable.

John Dehlin [03:00:57] Exactly. Well, it's not hunting those people down.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:59] That's one. And they don't. The handbook says that.

Douglas [03:01:04] That

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:06] a membership council should not be held on the basis of violations over the word of wisdom, but also.

Kyle Ashworth [03:01:12] Or in activity in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:14] Or in. Yeah, right. But also, I was thinking it more. And what is the thing that Mormons are always taught about why we avoid those things because they are bad for our health but what else they are.

Brennen [03:01:30] Is it the gateway drug?

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:31] Addictive? Right. And that's why we don't do them.

John Dehlin [03:01:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:36] So he's comparing this thing and, and with this, I mean, we know that this idea exists in the church that homosexuality is sex addiction and that you can, you can, you can overcome your sex addiction or your homosexual addiction. And that's the only way I can see. I, I can just wrap my head around. Why would he be bringing.

Brennen [03:02:01] Using as an analogy.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:03] Yeah, yeah, Addiction substances and using it as an analogy to say, a same sex relationship. So he's saying basically alcoholics have to leave their alcoholic addiction, so you have to leave your same sex addiction in order to be part of the church.

Brennen [03:02:18] Which is so 1970s, 1980s.

Brennen [03:02:21] It's very archaic. Yeah.

Douglas [03:02:23] And the analogy doesn't even apply because.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:25] Well, yeah, like we talked about.

John Dehlin [03:02:27] Why? Go ahead.

Douglas [03:02:28] It doesn't apply because there's no membership council at Hell World.

Guest [03:02:33] Right.

Douglas [03:02:34] No matter. Like you can keep saying the church and keep drinking coffee, but I've never heard a case. And, and later we asked them about this and they said, how did you know this is not happening? And I'm like, what are we gonna say?

Brennen [03:02:47] Because it says it in the handbook that it's not happening. That's not, you know, and, and I

John Dehlin [03:02:53] just, you know, he's, he basically says, hey, by the way, don't be confused. You're not being punished. Like, how compelling. How did that feel? And what is your reaction to him saying, we're not punishing you because you're same sex married. Don't be confused.

Brennen [03:03:09] This is something that my mom has taught me ever since I was a little kid. Your intention doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Even if you have good intentions, you can still hurt people. You can still enable them, you can keep them from learning, from growing. So you can say, oh, it wasn't our intention to hurt you. This isn't what this is about. We're not trying to punish you. You're still causing harm and hurting people. I mean, you can always have a good intention and you can say, oh, I shouldn't be held accountable because I, I had a good intention, but that's not it. So, yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Dehlin [03:03:49] yeah, it's, it's clearly punishing you, but they just don't want to own up to it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:03:53] Well, would that punishment now become some reflection on the actual leader? And I think that's probably a large portion of where we are in this whole discussion. This bishop has now realized I May have just pushed these. This couple into my office over my own personal beliefs. And I can't have that on my conscience. Yeah. And here's a group of men who won't even look these two in the eye and say, oh yeah. What they're quoting is actually that's our. That's their own words. Those are the words of our own prophets and apostles. Don't make eye contact. And then the Bishop, who now they're guilt by association involved in this membership council.

Kyle Ashworth [03:04:32] The Bishop is now looking at it, saying, look, maybe the very best way we can get out from underneath it is just have you to resign your membership. If you'll just exit yourself out of this, then that onus, that. That guilt no longer falls upon my shoulders as the Bishop, therefore you have now dealt with this on your own. And. And again, the overall justification that he continues to bring up is that, look, this. This isn't my addiction, kids. This is not mine. This is your addiction. You couldn't fix yourself. You got further down into the hole. I've always tried to throw you a lifeline.

Kyle Ashworth [03:05:04] I've always tried to help you. For now four years I've known you. And even to the point where I remember when your dad passed away and. And in young men's. I've always tried to be there to rescue you. I. I can't rescue anymore. Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem. Oh, how I would have gathered to you like a hand gathereth her chicks. Yet ye would not. It's back to you. It's back to Brennan. This is your fault. This is your. Your bed, your. Your opportunity to fix yourself. And you couldn't. You couldn't do all the things that Spencer Kimball promised you was possible. You couldn't do the things that Elder Oaks promised you as possible.

Kyle Ashworth [03:05:34] You couldn't do the things that Boyd K. Packer that. That all the other church leaders claimed that was possible. Therefore you have to suffer these consequences. It's not me at all. Or maybe it is, but it's not me at all. And that's. That's the position that we run from. And that's not healthy.

John Dehlin [03:05:49] It is. It is blame reversal. We always come back to that. There are 30, at least 31 techniques of high demand religions or cults. And one of them is we have a doctrine or a policy or a prophecy, and if it doesn't come true, it's your fault. Yeah, so they. They have a standard of what's true and you weren't able to live up to it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:10] Well, not only that, there's A standard. There's. There's a. There's a standard. The church will fill north and South America. It will fill the whole Earth. And when that doesn't happen, then they come in and say, oh, well, only the elect. Very few among us will actually inherit Zion. That it'll be very. Just a minuscule amount or a few and simple. So there's a. There is a standard, and then there's another standard just in case the first standard doesn't work.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] House always wins.

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:34] House always wins.

Brennen [03:06:35] That's a great point.

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:35] Great way of putting it.

John Dehlin [03:06:38] All right, so at least we now know you're not being punished. You just need to stop sinning, basically. Shouldn't laugh.

Douglas [03:06:45] I shouldn't laugh.

Guest [03:06:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] Okay, let's round this out. And again, we're not pun. We're not making fun of the person. It's the system. Because this is every bishop or stake president caught in this bad situation. All right, let's keep going.

Brennen [03:07:00] Depending on what it is, at least. Because if someone's drinking coffee and a member of the church, I assume a membership council wouldn't be held usually.

Douglas [03:07:10] Not that you'd probably put them on informal restrictions. So there was a lady one time that asked her bishop, she was drinking coffee, she said she wanted to renew her temple recommend. She said, bishop, you're not going to let a cup of coffee take me

Brennen [03:07:25] out of the temple, are you?

Douglas [03:07:27] And he asked her right back, you tell me, are you gonna let cup of coffee cake? Because the standard is, no, you can't drink coffee.

Brennen [03:07:32] I did see a conference talk of that recently. Kim's from the General Society presidency, and she talked about the same thing, the coffee pot on the back of the stove. But, yeah, I guess my whole line of questioning is.

John Dehlin [03:07:53] It's so bizarre.

Brennen [03:07:55] It's not the same thing.

Douglas [03:07:57] I mean, he recognized it later.

Kyle Ashworth [03:07:59] It's like, wait, that was such a terrible analogy.

Douglas [03:08:01] That's a terrible analogy because now I'm talking about temple recommend interview, and I'm comparing it to membership council.

John Dehlin [03:08:08] It's horrible. And it's so trivializing. Some beverage consuming is comparable to finding the love of your life and who you want to spend the rest of your life with. When we know the church put people through electroshock therapy and conversion therapy, blamed them for being gay, and then science said, oh, church, you were wrong. It's not a choice.

Douglas [03:08:28] Marriages.

John Dehlin [03:08:29] Yeah, yeah, it's cel. Celibacy is unhealthy. Mixed orientation marriages are awful, end in divorce. We're, you know, we were wrong. But then they're still going to pathologize it and belittle you by comparing it to a beverage that they're not excommunicating people for it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:08:46] And even the history behind that. Think of all that's come out of Mormonism in terms of revelation and growth of the church and, and the governance of the church that happened prior to the Word of Wisdom, prior to section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants. So was all that negatable because they were under the influence of. I mean the. Was the Kirtland Temple experience really spiritual or was it just because there were vats of wine that were flowing rhetorical. But that's the idea. Like, Susan, I would love to welcome you into the gates of the celestial kingdom, but I can't because you had that coffee analogy.

John Dehlin [03:09:19] And by the way, there's a, there's a crud ton of Mormons who drink coffee and still go to the temple. And my mom was given permission to go to the temple drinking coffee if a doctor said it was good for her health, for her bowels or whatever.

Brennen [03:09:33] We need, we need approval for society. Society before allowing you into the temple.

John Dehlin [03:09:38] Right. Or a medical thing. But, but it's been medically demonstrated that being in a committed, same sex legal relationship is better for your health.

Brennen [03:09:47] Right.

John Dehlin [03:09:47] So why don't you get an exemption? Are you. Let me just ask. Are you happy and are healthier being in a committed, loving relationship?

Brennen [03:09:54] Of course.

Douglas [03:09:55] Of course. Maybe we need a doctor recommendation.

Brennen [03:09:59] Are you truly happy?

John Dehlin [03:10:01] Yeah.

Brennen [03:10:01] Doing a, doing a. In psychology.

Brennen [03:10:03] It's a PHQ9. Is the, the assessment for depression one of those?

Kyle Ashworth [03:10:08] Yeah, that's a great point though.

Brennen [03:10:10] Really?

Kyle Ashworth [03:10:10] It is a great point.

Douglas [03:10:11] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [03:10:12] Because at the end of the day, isn't the whole purpose of this to. To create joy and men is that they might have.

John Dehlin [03:10:19] Men are.

Kyle Ashworth [03:10:20] That they might enjoy and companionship, I guess goal.

Brennen [03:10:23] Not in this case.

John Dehlin [03:10:24] It is not good for man to be alone. Men are that they might have joy. You guys. Right?

Douglas [03:10:30] Here's joy.

John Dehlin [03:10:31] Yeah. And Kyle, I imagine you enjoy your relationship with Jay. It's healthy for you and good 100. Gerardo, I think you and Zach are probably healthier together.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:42] Yeah, for sure.

Brennen [03:10:43] And your three dogs.

John Dehlin [03:10:44] What's that?

Brennen [03:10:45] And the dogs.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:46] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:10:46] Well. And that's just really it like I, I. Father's Day was just recently and I, I was just looking through old photos and I was married in a mixed orientation marriage and I had had a life before this life. But I really look at it at the end of the day Combining those family photos of my wife and our kids, and now my fiance, soon to be husband, and our kids. Zero regrets. Zero regrets. And I didn't have to sacrifice any of my values and any of my morals to get there. Zero regrets. Family. Isn't it about time? Isn't it about that relationship?

Broader Harm to LGBTQ Members of the Church

John Dehlin [03:11:18] And y' all really should listen to Kyle's interview on Mormon stories and Gerardo's. Both of them are epic interviews about how they became healthy by disobeying the church, frankly.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:29] Yeah. Yep.

Brennen [03:11:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:32] All right, Bishop, stop with the coffee stuff, okay? Stop. Just stop with the coffee analogies.

Douglas [03:11:38] Bishop.

Brennen [03:11:40] I. I just. I couldn't stop thinking, if it wasn't required, then why was it happening? You know? And if maybe it was just personally, you felt like the meeting, the council needed to happen even though it wasn't required, or if it was the state president that instructed you to do so.

Douglas [03:12:00] We had some. We had some instruction on the whole thing.

Brennen [03:12:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:04] So that's a big deal.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:05] Second time.

Douglas [03:12:05] Second time he read that letter, I

Douglas [03:12:07] think it made it pretty clear.

Kyle Ashworth [03:12:08] Not only second time he says that, but he also does not implicate the stake president directly. Every time he said, we have received instruction from members of the stake.

Brennen [03:12:17] Yeah, he's not. He's not identifying someone specifically.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:21] So the church always wants to say it's a local decision. It's. It's not coming down from church headquarters. And yet Quentin Cook. Quentin Cook is saying, here's the gun. Stake presidents, you know, here's the gun, use it. And so they. They want to have it both ways. They want to claim. Claim that it's always a local matter. They want plausible deniability. They want to be able to say that it was a local decision so that the corporate church is not responsible. And then at the same time, Quentin Cook is running around telling stake presidents to use the disciplinary councils. Right. And in your case, he admitted what?

Brennen [03:13:07] Yeah. Who?

Guest [03:13:08] Sorry.

Douglas [03:13:09] Yeah. In this case, he's like, yeah, I am. I am howling this council because you're in a same sex marriage, you know,

John Dehlin [03:13:17] and it's coming from above, Right?

Douglas [03:13:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:13:20] Yeah.

Brennen [03:13:20] At this. At that time, that's. That's what we were giving the impression of, and that's what he told us. So I was like, okay, well, he said he'd received instructions, so it can't be him.

Douglas [03:13:30] Yeah.

Brennen [03:13:30] And I was like, okay, it makes sense. You know, I've known him for a long time.

Brennen [03:13:33] He was.

Brennen [03:13:34] Wouldn't come after me.

John Dehlin [03:13:35] Yeah.

Brennen [03:13:35] So.

John Dehlin [03:13:36] Yeah. Yeah. And this has been going on for Decades. The church wants to deny top down instruction, but they're giving top down instruction. All right, let's, let's keep going

Douglas [03:13:51] with

Douglas [03:13:52] those types of feelings. Why in the world would you want to remain a member of the church?

Douglas [03:13:56] Yeah, the thing is there's so many friends of mine that still still want to be a part of the church regardless. And it's hard to see that, you

Brennen [03:14:06] know, even knowing all this stuff and believing part of it, they, they still want to remain in the church for a lot of reasons. For the community, the companionship, family and family. Yeah. If you, if you ask any ex Mormon quote unquote, will tell you that the biggest thing that they miss from being in the church was the community and the connection to everyone around them.

Douglas [03:14:36] In saying that, did they feel like they couldn't attend church meetings anymore or go to church functions?

Brennen [03:14:41] I don't know. I would be talking about specific cases,

Gerardo Sumano [03:14:45] but

Brennen [03:14:47] some of them felt like they were probably comfortable and others didn't really feel comfortable. I mean, last time I was in church was a singles ward in my freshman year of college. So it was my, it was me testing the water to see if I was going to be going to church after I graduated and left my home, mom's house.

Brennen [03:15:14] And my immediate feeling was that the intention of the singles ward was for everyone to get married. And I knew I couldn't do that. And so it didn't make sense or feel right for me to be there because if everyone else was to be getting married and I wasn't going to be able to, at least in the, you know, the church's guidelines and it just felt nonsensical. It is, didn't feel right.

Brennen [03:15:44] So that's kind of where my inactivity started was because I hit 18 and for the church, that's when you start looking for your soulmate. And I did, just not with the church.

Douglas [03:15:57] Sure.

Brennen [03:15:58] So I understand that.

Douglas [03:16:01] Yeah. And some of them doesn't really have a choice. If they live at home, they had to go to church or they found out that they're gay while they're in college. My case specifically, I could be open about it, you know.

Brennen [03:16:18] And so far you're losing your, your degree, not tenure. That's after.

Douglas [03:16:23] But yeah, anyway. But yeah, it's hard.

Brennen [03:16:27] It's a hard topic, but yeah.

Douglas [03:16:31] Okay, well listen, why don't you step out for just a minute? Captain bring back in just a minute. Okay. Brendan, in talking about that, we are

Brennen [03:16:43] recommending withdrawal of membership.

Douglas [03:16:46] I think you were kind of already on that pathway Right. But like I said, it's not final until the state.

Guest [03:16:54] It's not official until the state president approves it.

Brennen [03:16:57] That.

Douglas [03:16:58] And then you have a right of appeal with the state president within 30 days.

Brennen [03:17:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:17:03] Okay. That's it. You have a reaction?

Brennen [03:17:06] Yeah. So that last part, he said, he says, we're recommending for you a draw of membership.

Gerardo Sumano [03:17:13] And people understand that.

Brennen [03:17:14] That word excommunication.

John Dehlin [03:17:17] After they deliberated.

Brennen [03:17:18] Yeah. So they deliberated. And I wish we could have been able to record that part, but, yeah, we weren't able to. Anyway, so afterwards, his recommendation was for me to be excommunicated with a withdrawal membership. You know, nowadays and he's, and he follows up by saying, and you were kind of already on that pathway already anyway. Which is not, which is not the case. I was. I'm not. I was. I, I can't be on the pathway for excommunication. The church has to come and seek me out for an, for a membership council. They have to go to the work to do it. I was not on my way to do it at all, so.

Kyle Ashworth [03:17:57] And it was this reinforcement, this bias again, this. So you were already on the way out.

Douglas [03:18:02] Right?

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:02] You will.

Guest [03:18:03] It's.

John Dehlin [03:18:03] They just don't want to own it.

Brennen [03:18:04] I know.

John Dehlin [03:18:05] They just don't want to own it.

Brennen [03:18:06] Better.

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:07] The reverse commitment pattern that we all remember from the mission. You will be baptized.

Brennen [03:18:11] Right. Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:14] Just. Just another quick question though for you too. How, just how much time passed, how much deliberation time did the bishop.

Brennen [03:18:23] 10 minutes, I would say. 10 minutes max.

Brennen [03:18:26] Yeah.

Brennen [03:18:27] At least five. And, you know, till 10.

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:29] And, and then. So Jeff, they've, or somebody. The, the clerk. The word clerk.

Brennen [03:18:35] Oh, yeah. And we're avoiding names.

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:37] Did he, did he hang out with you? What was that like as the word clerk? Because he had to exit the, the meeting with the bishop.

Brennen [03:18:46] He was there outside the bishop's office,

Gerardo Sumano [03:18:48] which is not required. I want. Wonder why.

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:49] Yeah, I wondered that too. I just. So I just wondered if there was interaction. Did he speak with you? Was it like not recognizing your other ward members on Sunday at Chuckarama?

Brennen [03:18:58] Like, how weird was, wasn't. I don't know. I'm a pretty personable person, so I, I, it wasn't weird to be. For me to be sitting next to him. I, he, he lives near where, where I grew up, and so we kind of talked about that and he's like, yeah, there's this neighborhood development in, going behind, you know, this house in this neighborhood. I was like, oh, cool. You know, so Just casual conversation.

Douglas [03:19:22] I'm just weirded out because.

Brennen [03:19:24] Yeah. Doug is weirded out to the ninth.

John Dehlin [03:19:27] Why Doug?

Douglas [03:19:28] Because like we just had this intense conversation where we've been put into this punishment and then we walk outside and like, oh, how's it going? You know, everything, everything is good in the hood.

Brennen [03:19:42] See this is, this is a, a great example of like the dissonance that you will see for I, I feel like church, bishops, stake presidents, just church organization. Yeah. Is that they've got this two faced thing of like, you know, we're gonna do this terrible thing and it's going to be really hurtful.

John Dehlin [03:20:02] We're cutting you off from your family and friends for eternity.

Brennen [03:20:06] Exactly right. And then, you know, two minutes later, complete shift of like, hey, yeah, you know, nothing happened. We're just, you know, we're hanging out. Let's.

John Dehlin [03:20:15] Where are you going after you get a grab dinner?

Brennen [03:20:17] Let's talk about this, you know, new development going on behind the neighborhood.

Douglas [03:20:21] They took off their judge hat and put on their human hat.

Kyle Ashworth [03:20:24] Well, not only that, they often followed up with, but just make sure, you know, that you're welcome here. We want you to attend, you can still attend all of our activities. And what's preventing you from even coming to church after this happened? That's usually the Reddit, the rhetoric that you start getting.

Brennen [03:20:37] Yeah. Spackle over sandpaper.

Brennen [03:20:38] That's it.

John Dehlin [03:20:39] Yeah. All right. Well, that was the disciplinary council.

Douglas [03:20:43] Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:45] It gets better. I promise it gets a lot.

John Dehlin [03:20:47] What?

Kyle Ashworth [03:20:48] There's more, but there's more.

Brennen [03:20:49] All right, so why it gets better in the sense that we get to see it. It gets worse is like the, the amount of contradictions. Gaslighting just goes way up from here on out.

Douglas [03:21:01] It's like because until this point, this whole council was called because of same sex marriage.

Brennen [03:21:08] And the bishop during this, the council was, you know, trying to make it seem like it wasn't for that. It was so we could, you know, see if you still wanted to attend church. But that wasn't. I wasn't called because I wanted to. Because they wanted to see if I still wanted to attend church. You know, so like, but he said

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:24] it several times that your, your actions go against church standards and if someone's not living the church standards, then we

Brennen [03:21:32] have to hold a council. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:33] They can't be part of the church

Douglas [03:21:34] and all this stuff. Nothing else about.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:37] So there was nothing about apostasy, nothing about speaking against the church?

Brennen [03:21:41] Yeah, that's, that's important to know at this point. Nowhere up at this to this point in time, before the council or during the council has, have we been asked about anything related to speaking bad against the church or speaking out against the church, which is quote unquote apostasy?

John Dehlin [03:21:58] Yeah. And I think I know this is going because I gave my TED Talk supporting same sex marriage in like October, November of 2013, and then 2014, I'm early 2014, I'm called into my disciplinary council and all it was about was about your support of progressive causes. But then when I started telling the world that I was going to be excommunicated for advocating for same sex marriage, I'm just telling you what they did to me. They tried to turn it and say, well, we found something you said three years ago that we don't like. It was, it was while you were inactive and you've, you've reconciled with the church since then, but that's the reason we're doing it. Don't go telling people that we're excommunicating you because you support same sex marriage.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:42] And this is exactly what's going to happen.

John Dehlin [03:22:46] That's what happened to me.

Brennen [03:22:48] But it doesn't work for us.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:49] Well, it happened to Michael Quinn, you know, like it's happened to like it happens over and over.

John Dehlin [03:22:54] Own it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:55] That's why they didn't want recordings.

Kyle Ashworth [03:22:56] Yeah, well, in the mouth of two or three excommunications shall every excommunication be established.

John Dehlin [03:23:01] Yeah. And by the way, why isn't a bishop good enough to excommunicate somebody? Like why even have the disciplinary council at the bishop if the stake president still has to approve it and can override it?

Gerardo Sumano [03:23:12] That's, that's a, a point point that I was really alarmed at this whole thing from the very beginning and I talked to my dad about it, he was alarmed about it. I, you know, former state president was outraged by it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:23:29] The church holds this idea of holding a membership in the church very, very seriously. And that's why they put this like checks and balances. So because it's, it's such an important matter to them. It's your salvation is your living with your, your family forever.

Gerardo Sumano [03:23:50] I mean, just the fact that a few decades ago there was not a way to resign the church, like that was added, you know, in the last few decades. And, and that these councils are held based on varies, are supposed to be held very, based on very serious stuff. Verifiable, verifiable, very serious stuff like incest, like rape, like murder, molestation, murder. So putting same sex marriage in the Same category with this other, all other stuff. Like, you know, it really shines a light as to how. Great, like how big the issue for the church is, even though for maybe some members and some other people might not.

John Dehlin [03:24:33] It is a fact that you're more likely to be excommunicated in the Mormon Church for being same sex married than you are for being a pedophile or a spouse abuser. Correct. You're more often to be let off without excommunication if you sexually abuse children or beat your spouse.

Kyle Ashworth [03:24:50] It's a great point. You're not wrong. That is, that is a valid 100 true point.

John Dehlin [03:24:56] The other thing is, look, does God inspire bishops or not? Because if God inspires bishops, why does the stake president have to like, sign off or reject? I mean, bishops can make all sorts of decisions and they're supposed to be inspired. So is God going to tell the stake president something different than he told the bishop?

Brennen [03:25:13] Why do we need checks and balances if there is true inspiration to every single priesthood leader in the church?

Gerardo Sumano [03:25:18] I don't, I don't think there's any situation in which a stake president has ever, you know, contradicted a decision that the bishop has made. And this is what we're going to see later when the story starts changing the sick president, even though he previously is going to tell them in a phone call that what the bishop did was probably wrong, he's later going to side with the bishop.

John Dehlin [03:25:38] So that's a segue to our next segment. So we've got. So June 2nd, you did a phone conversation with your stake president asking if they knew about the disciplinary council. Do you want to give the background for this?

Stake President's Role and Instructions Revealed

Brennen [03:25:50] Yeah, definitely. So, so in the council itself, the bishop told me that he had received instruction to do so. That made me feel better about the bishop because that to me that meant he wasn't calling the council on a personal vendetta. He wasn't calling it just because he wanted to seek out a gay couple. So I was.

John Dehlin [03:26:09] He was told to do it.

Brennen [03:26:10] Yeah, he was told to do it. You know, and so I was going to, you know, call the stake president to see. Okay, why did you call this? Why are you going after me? Because by this time, we're, we're still feeling like it's a witch hunt and we're still feeling really frustrated. So I'm like, okay, why did you feel like you needed to do this? Why did you, why did you tell my bishop, who I grew up with, who I think is a great guy to come over and do this, you know, terrible thing to me, and so that's why I wanted to call him.

John Dehlin [03:26:41] And this is your old stake president in your former stake, correct?

Brennen [03:26:45] Yes, he's the current stake president in my, you know, my old boundaries, where I grew up, my home. My home wards, State president.

John Dehlin [03:26:52] Got it. Okay, so this is not the stake president of where you live now, Even

Gerardo Sumano [03:26:56] though he called them. He called that one.

Kyle Ashworth [03:26:59] He called both of them.

Brennen [03:27:00] I did.

John Dehlin [03:27:00] But this one. But this one is the stake president over your home ward for where. Where you grew up.

Brennen [03:27:07] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [03:27:07] Where the council was held?

Gerardo Sumano [03:27:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:27:10] Okay. All right, so should we play it?

Brennen [03:27:13] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [03:27:14] All right, let's do it.

Brennen [03:27:15] It's a good one.

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [03:27:17] Hello?

Video Clip 7 [03:27:18] Hey, this is president.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:21] Yes, this is.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:22] Hey, this is Brennan from the Wedgwood ward.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:28] How are you, Brennan?

Video Clip 7 [03:27:29] I'm good. How are you doing?

Video Clip 7 [03:27:31] Great, pal.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:31] Good, good. Do you have a couple minutes?

Video Clip 7 [03:27:35] Yeah.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:35] Far away.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:37] So I, I recently had a membership council with.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:43] With Bishop

Video Clip 7 [03:27:47] over my, My conduct related

Video Clip 7 [03:27:49] to same sex marriage. Okay.

Video Clip 7 [03:27:53] I was, I was really distraught and, like, confused going into the meeting because I, I grew up with Bishop Wilding.

Video Clip 7 [03:28:03] He.

Video Clip 7 [03:28:03] He took me on camping trips and, and, and taught me lessons that I, I probably wouldn't have learned after, like, my dad passed away, you know?

Video Clip 7 [03:28:14] Right, right, right.

Video Clip 7 [03:28:16] And I don't know, that was kind of really valuable to me. So it, it didn't, it didn't make sense that after, like, all we'd been through, that he would call me to a membership council for same sex marriage when it wasn't required, especially as a doctor, too, because, I mean, there, there are certain, I guess

Video Clip 7 [03:28:42] health care morals

Video Clip 7 [03:28:44] of, you know, treating patients equally. That kind of. It just didn't make sense in my head. And so, I mean, during the council, He. He had told me that he had received instruction to hold the council, which

Video Clip 7 [03:28:59] made me even more confused.

Video Clip 7 [03:29:03] And I don't know.

Video Clip 7 [03:29:05] You know, I would love to meet up with you actually, and chat through it. The, the issue of, of same. You know, if it's same sex marriage, that's not, that's not really a reason to hold, you know, I mean, a membership council. Right. The, the membership council is really in the light of people, if they are, you know, opposed to the church. You follow what I'm saying? Trying to harm the church in some way. You know what I mean? There's. There's a whole list of other things. You follow what I'm saying? And so if, And I would love to talk to you about it. You follow What I'm saying, just to know where you're at, you know what I mean?

Video Clip 7 [03:29:40] If you're not like out there actively, you know what I mean, Going against the teachings of the church, you, fault, I'm saying, and try and hurt the church. It's just such an interesting challenge at times. Right. In walking that line, I mean, look, at the end of the day, I think.

John Dehlin [03:29:56] Okay, wait, I am just super confused. I've got a lot too, because what I just heard him say is we're not. We didn't. We don't excommunicate people for being same sex marriage.

Gerardo Sumano [03:30:05] He's gonna say like five times throughout this conversation.

Brennen [03:30:07] Yeah, he said for same sex marriage. Same sex marriage in and of itself is not a reason to hold a membership council. Council.

Douglas [03:30:15] Not even excommunicate.

Brennen [03:30:16] Just holding a council to even hold a council whatsoever.

John Dehlin [03:30:18] I am just super confused.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:20] Can we back up? Also, because the bishop has always thrown the stake president and the stake presidency under the bus, saying I wish I had a control or some, some aspect of this that was, that was within my control, but other people are telling me I've got to do this. And then listening to the stake president say, oh, what?

Douglas [03:30:36] What?

John Dehlin [03:30:36] Who?

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:37] Oh, hi. Yeah. Oh, they did what? Like, he just sounds completely like he just learned about this whole experience for the very first time. It wasn't like this bishop knew for sure or even remembered that this conversation had even been had on your behalf with your, with your bishop. That's not your bishop here. He sounds very surprised about this new revelation.

Guest [03:31:00] You've been.

Kyle Ashworth [03:31:00] What? Hold on a second. No, we wouldn't. That council wouldn't be held based on just a same sex marriage. So this is where we start to unfold. This is where the emperor has been shown without clothes or behind the curtain where we're starting to see how the sausage is made, that maybe perhaps this bishop went rogue and started this membership council on his own without. Clearly, the stake president wasn't as closely involved or even remembers this conversation. Just based off my initial reaction to the phone call.

Gerardo Sumano [03:31:28] Totally.

Brennen [03:31:29] Yeah, I agree that there is. I mean, you can tell that he's surprised. Half, but half of me is thinking that by this point the bishop has already talked to him about what happened in the council because the bishop knows that he's in hot water. So he's. At this point, I think he is trying to convince the stake president that it wasn't just called for same sex marriage conduct. There was something else that would in my case constitute as apostasy. And so that's going to see, he's going to start asking all these questions about apostasy. And I was like, why would he

Brennen [03:32:03] just start asking me that out of nowhere?

Gerardo Sumano [03:32:05] Yeah.

Brennen [03:32:05] The only thing I could think of is if the bishop had told him or it was trying to, you know, give him a different story about what happened so that he would, you know, not be in the know. So he might not, he might, you're right, he might not even know that it was called on the basis of same sex marriage. And that's why he was surprised. And that's why now is saying it wouldn't be called for that which to

Kyle Ashworth [03:32:30] me doesn't make a lot of sense because the, the very, the very first part of the paragraph of your letter that you received as part of the disciplinary council specifically said same sex marriage.

Brennen [03:32:41] Not only, not only that.

Gerardo Sumano [03:32:43] As I was reading the handbook, I found out something that makes this situation even worse. Whenever there's any, any case of apostasy, the stake president is supposed to contact the gen, a general authority, area authority, and talk to him about the situation to figure out if it's real, real apostasy and if a membership council is necessary. So for a case where a stake president would have had to talk directly to a stake, to a general authority about, you know, someone's case, it just blows my mind that he wouldn't remember the details or the specifics of the case if he was really being called for apostasy. Does that make sense?

Brennen [03:33:31] Yes, it does. And, and we're going to see that he, when I, when I ask him about this, like, do you know what it was called for? He's like, well, you know, we've got a lot of case, I've got a lot of cases that go across my desk. I wish you weren't the only person, person, you know, having a membership council. As if to kind of say that like, oh, I just, I, I don't know right now. I couldn't tell you over the phone when really he should know. And we'll, we'll hear later. The bishop told me later in a future phone call.

Douglas [03:34:07] He,

Brennen [03:34:10] all right, I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. But he, he was, he was telling me that

Brennen [03:34:18] I can't remember where I

Brennen [03:34:19] was going with that. I'm sorry, I had, I had a great note because in that call you told me something about not.

John Dehlin [03:34:27] I, I, Yeah, I bet if we play it, it'll come.

Brennen [03:34:30] Yeah, it will.

Guest [03:34:30] All right.

Brennen [03:34:31] It will. Yes, it will. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:34:32] But so far what he Said is, what he said is we don't excommunicate you for what you were just excommunicated for.

Guest [03:34:38] For.

Gerardo Sumano [03:34:38] We don't hold council.

John Dehlin [03:34:39] Yeah, yeah, right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:34:40] For that.

John Dehlin [03:34:41] Yeah. We don't hold councils for what we just excommunicated you for. Yeah. All right, so it's weird, but let's, let's, let's hear it up.

Guest [03:34:52] You know me fairly well. You know, we want, we want to do our very best to make sure that we are helpful and loving and kind. You know what I mean? The only thing that we have to take a stand on is when it comes to, it comes to the issue, you thought of saying if somebody is out there antagonistic towards the Church.

Brennen [03:35:10] Right, right.

Guest [03:35:12] And I don't know where that's at. And maybe you're like, oh, President, that's not the case. And maybe that's not, I don't know. But when we had our discussions, not specifically as it related to you thought, I'm saying, to your circumstance. Right. But what we have sometimes are people that are involved in, you know, same sex marriages, but what they're out there doing, if all I'm saying is out there tearing the church down, down, you

Douglas [03:35:33] know what I mean?

Guest [03:35:34] And that's when we're like, no, you can't do that. You know what I mean? You can't say, I'm going to be a member. You follow what I'm saying, and then shred the church. Every time, you know what I mean, we turn around. Yeah, like, that's not okay.

Brennen [03:35:44] That's, that's what was, that was, that's what was hard for me to wrap

Brennen [03:35:48] my mind around because the letter that

Brennen [03:35:50] I received from bishop said that I,

Brennen [03:35:53] that I was called to the council for my conduct related to same sex marriage, not, not for anything I've done against the Church because I've been inactive for four years. And so the council, it felt like, because I, I knew, I knew it couldn't have come from Bishop Wilding then it made me think that it, like it was you who was instructing this council to occur for something that wasn't required, you know?

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:24] No, no, not at all.

Guest [03:36:25] The only issue, the only questions that we've had with bishops, you know, I mean, in bishops councils where we meet with all of the bishops, is if somebody thought, I'm saying, is antagonistic or hostile towards the Church, you know what I mean? That's when we have to step in, right. And say, no, that's not okay. So I would love to meet up with you I. No, no, that's not the case at all. As far as it relates to a specific matter, I would love to meet up with you. In fact, to be honest with you, keep in mind, when a bishop holds something like that, it's merely a recommendation to us.

Guest [03:36:54] Us. You follow what I'm saying? So it's not a final action by this Bishop. The Bishop is basically sending it to us. So I would have easily been reaching out to you. I'm sure. I haven't seen it yet, you thought I'm saying. But I would have been reaching out to you anyway to meet up with you.

Brennen [03:37:09] I don't feel like there's anything about

Brennen [03:37:10] my behavior that's going against the church. So why would the council have been called in the first place if not for my conduct related to same sex marriage?

Brennen [03:37:18] That was in the letter.

Guest [03:37:20] That's what I was gonna say. And that would probably be something I would just need to ask Bishop. I'm saying his opinion. You know, when we go through these, you have to appreciate it's not a matter of me knowing every detail you thought I'm saying of everything. Unless it's at a stake level. Right. So I don't mind at all reaching out to Bishop, having the conversation, reaching back out to you, and then setting up a time to meet. I don't mind doing that at all.

Brennen [03:37:42] So are you saying that Bishop White

Brennen [03:37:46] Wilding did call the council himself?

Brennen [03:37:50] For me being married to another man,

Guest [03:37:55] I. I need to ask him. So the. The comment that you made a minute ago is you're saying that you have never been hostile, ever towards the church, You've never been adverse to the Church

Brennen [03:38:04] or the doctrines of the Church that I've noticed.

Brennen [03:38:07] I've. I've never.

Guest [03:38:09] It.

Brennen [03:38:09] It was.

Guest [03:38:10] Have you posted any antagonistic material towards the Church online or anything?

Brennen [03:38:14] Not that I can think of.

Guest [03:38:17] Okay, well, then that's. That'd be an easy conversation for me to have with Bishop Wilding. You thought I'm saying. Right. Because the reason. The reason of the council is not the fact that you are married. That's not the. That's not the purpose of the council. The purpose of the council is if you happen to be married. You follow what I'm saying? And you're still trying your very best. You know what I mean, to attend your meetings. You know what I mean? And doing those things, you quit course can't get a temple recommend. Right. Which, you know.

Brennen [03:38:42] Right.

Guest [03:38:42] But at the same token, it's not a function of us going in and trying to Throw people out of the church. It's not bad at all.

Brennen [03:38:49] Yeah, I, I have to point out

Brennen [03:38:50] the discrepancy, President Cotter, because the letter really quick, like.

John Dehlin [03:38:55] Okay, Brett, go ahead. What's, what's weird or frustrating to you about that?

Brennen [03:39:01] I'll let you go first.

Brennen [03:39:02] I'll let you go first.

John Dehlin [03:39:03] Well, I mean, it. He, he, like, first of all, I'm just outraged, really. He's gonna let the bishop go through an entire disciplinary council and then, and then it's just like. And if he makes a mistake, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go ahead and fix it. Like, that's so weird. If, if, if they're going to be that casual about it, if there's gonna. They're gonna be so loosey goosey about it. It's basically your damnations on the line. It's your time. It's all this emotional and psychological trauma. They're going to put you through all that. And then like, oh, well, the stake president, if he changes his mind, then never mind. It won't have counted.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:42] I just can't get over.

John Dehlin [03:39:43] That's outrageous. Like, just let the stake president do the disciplinary council, otherwise don't put people through that.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:49] I'm not, I'm not there. I'm not convinced that the stake president was even involved or knew what was going on. I just can't get to that point where I'm listening to the, this, these multiple conversations and saying to myself, ah, yes, the bishop and the stake president were well coordinated and, and knew the needs of this member so well that we had to hold this membership council. I'm not, I'm not at that point. And that's typically what we see in these disciplinary councils. It's where the bishop consults with the stake president, the stake president with the bishop, and they get to the point where they

Kyle Ashworth [03:40:19] are meeting in these, under these circumstances in an effort to meet the needs of the member and where this stake president is basically coming off as either completely naive and not understanding what was going on, or he's dodging so well that he seemed like, this is a really great show. This is really great acting. And I just don't, I'm not there.

Brennen [03:40:38] I'm not.

Kyle Ashworth [03:40:39] I don't believe that this stake president is faking or acting or pretending like he doesn't know. I really genuinely. And maybe the audience can react in the comments contrarily, but I don't believe the stake president's been well informed or even knows the basis behind this membership council. I don't think the stake president even knows what's going on in his own stake in terms of his, his bishops and leadership.

Brennen [03:41:03] Yeah, that, that's what I, that's what I wanted to say is that whatever reason he has currently is not the reason that we were called for.

Kyle Ashworth [03:41:11] Amen.

Brennen [03:41:11] I'm, I'm think I'm really thinking that the bishop, after the disciplinary council called him and told him that this was the reason for it and this is what I was bringing him to the council for. It wasn't for same sex marriage. It was him being same sex married

Brennen [03:41:25] and then speaking bad about the church.

Brennen [03:41:27] That I think that's the reason that at this point that was the reason the sick president was full and what he thought the council was actually called for. So it has to be that there was no approval in the first place because otherwise he would have known exactly that it was only same sex marriage conduct. And we saw that during the council apostasy and nothing about it was ever brought up during the council. So.

Brennen [03:41:54] Yeah, yeah, that's all I have to say about that.

Kyle Ashworth [03:41:55] No, I think you're absolutely right. And, and that is part of the problem that we see in, in Mormonism is in these types of councils that we are, as John mentioned Mormon multiple times in this, this episode, we are hurting the lives of, of people who can make contributions, maybe not immediately or currently making contributions to their local ward stakes or branches, but they could make contributions. They could be those voices, they could be those examples in these pews across Zion. But they're being kicked out. Yeah, they're being excommunicated out of it. And that's, that is to the fault of the church and that is to the detriment of the church.

Kyle Ashworth [03:42:30] The church deserves to see a verb, variety of color, the church all. And, and those people, the variety, the chorus, the choir deserves to be a part of organizations that are no longer harming them and hurting them. This should be, that's the epitome of gospel and, and being able to attend organizations or churches like this where they can feel uplifted and supported and their needs are met. And that's not happening clearly.

John Dehlin [03:42:52] Yeah, but I'm also super confused because the bishop said he was told to do this and he would have been told by the stake president.

Kyle Ashworth [03:42:59] That's where I'm so hung up.

John Dehlin [03:43:00] So the bishop is saying the stake president told me to do it, but the stake president's saying, oh no, the bishop is probably wrong here. And by the way, I can overwrite it, but the stake president's acting like he didn't even know what was going on. So it gets worse. So which is it? Yeah, yeah,

Douglas [03:43:18] you just can't get it.

Brennen [03:43:19] And I think for the remainder of the call, it's just going to be, I mean, continued questions about if I have done social media posts, which I, I tell him I have not.

John Dehlin [03:43:31] What's the purpose of the council, if then he's gonna be doing the inquisition over the phone?

Gerardo Sumano [03:43:37] Well, it seems like he's trying to find stuff to justify what had happened, you know.

Kyle Ashworth [03:43:41] Well, this is exactly what you talked about earlier.

John Dehlin [03:43:43] Keystone Cops. That's a Boomer reference. It's, it's, it's just, it's just incompetence. It's gross organizational incompetence.

Kyle Ashworth [03:43:53] And prior to this, this council being held, as Gerardo pointed out, quoting the handbook of instructions, it requires verifiable evidence. It requires at least two witnesses. And if in this case, if it were indeed a situation of apostasy, show me the money. Show me where there was apostasy or show me where there was speaking ill against the church on social media. Show, show me this. If that's indeed what it was. But perhaps the fact that you walked in Brennan with your husband in that room, that was enough of the evidence they needed in the mouth of two

Brennen [03:44:26] or three witnesses, right?

Brennen [03:44:28] Yeah. And so, I mean, following this phone call and seeing this contradiction. Contradiction. It kind of got the ball rolling of like, what other things they're, they're not telling the truth about. And so that's, that's when we started to get into, okay, which bishop did they actually contact? Which stake president in, you know, in my boundaries did they actually contact?

Brennen [03:44:52] Because we knew that if they are not, if they're not telling the truth and they're contradicting each other here, who's to say that they're actually following handbook policy with contacting the bishops? And so from here, I, I took it because I was, I was determined by this point. I took it upon myself to figure out, okay, who's my YSA bishop, who is my family ward bishop, who is the stake presidents. And I contacted all of them and I said, hi, this is, this is Brennan Porter. I, I was recently called to a membership council on the basis of my same sex marriage conduct. And I, and I asked, you know, were you made aware of this because I'm in your boundaries.

Brennen [03:45:35] And every single one of them said that they were not, they were not made aware. And they had, they had no idea that it was going on.

Douglas [03:45:41] Not heard Anything about it or about any other bishop or stakes president has contact him.

Kyle Ashworth [03:45:47] I just want to reiterate that you contacted every one of your bishops from that point forward to where you're at today and not one of them was

Brennen [03:45:57] aware of this council through every one of the bishops and none.

Kyle Ashworth [03:46:00] Not even a conversation with a bishop?

Brennen [03:46:02] No, not at all.

Douglas [03:46:03] Not even like, oh maybe let us check. They, they were like, no, there's no other bishop contact us about any membership council. And we even go to the lds.org and look at the meeting houses of

Brennen [03:46:19] the meeting house finder of the fake

Douglas [03:46:21] address that Brandon gave and the, the, our actual address that the bishop deliver. You know all those words possible ysa, word family, ward, married first, married first word. We contact every single one of those bishop and the Sikh president and none of them has any idea.

Kyle Ashworth [03:46:37] I would assume most of them were like, who, who are you? Have we ever met?

Brennen [03:46:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was we. And we have a screenshot of that. I was like, oh my gosh, not a of them know. So the, the bishop must have never contacted him at all. So at this point there was no coordination with the stake president and then there was no coordination with any of the other bishops or stake presidents that you know where. Of where we were living.

Brennen [03:47:06] So yeah.

Reviewing Further Council Recordings

John Dehlin [03:47:07] Okay, so I think, I think are we all feeling that we got enough from recording three that we should move on to the next recording or is there more in recording 3? 3. That's, that's important.

Brennen [03:47:18] No, it was, it was pretty much that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:20] So basically stake president saying, wait a minute, I didn't know this was happening. You're not supposed to be, there's not supposed to be a disciplinary council for same sex marriage.

Brennen [03:47:32] I know.

John Dehlin [03:47:33] Are you sure, are you sure you didn't like speak out and criticize the church publicly? And don't worry, don't worry and don't worry because I can undo this if a mistake's been made. Is that the summary?

Guest [03:47:44] Yep.

Brennen [03:47:45] And then also that he never gave instruction. He never gave instruction for the, the membership council to occur. And so that was, that was the biggest contradiction at the time for me. I was like, okay, Bishop said there was instruction. Stake president said there's. There wasn't any at all.

Gerardo Sumano [03:48:00] So.

Gerardo Sumano [03:48:01] Okay.

Douglas [03:48:01] And, and then at the end he said, well, if you want to meet up, let's, let's meet all together.

Brennen [03:48:06] Yeah, yeah. He was like, you know, I'd really, I'd really appreciate the opportunity. Opportunity to get together and you know, talk this out. Which I think I mean, looking back, it's probably just damage control.

Gerardo Sumano [03:48:14] So he also said that, well, he tried to rationalize at one point that, well, what did the bishop mean with, when he said with instruction? Was that like a, like a training where, like, he probably had misunderstood and those kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [03:48:34] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [03:48:34] But basically it's just like, no, this shouldn't have happened as far as stake president goes.

John Dehlin [03:48:41] So the stake president basically admits it shouldn't have happened.

Gerardo Sumano [03:48:44] Yeah, that, that at that time, that according to what they were saying of not apostasize, apostatizing or speaking ill against the church, this shouldn't have happened.

John Dehlin [03:48:53] Okay. Yeah, but we're not going to play that clip just because it's.

Brennen [03:48:58] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:48:59] Okay. All right, so should we go to the next recording? Tell us. Let's set that up. What, what happens in the next recording?

Brennen [03:49:07] Yeah, let's, let's pull up the slide for it. So you call the bishop right after. Well, I, I didn't call it well, right after.

Gerardo Sumano [03:49:14] I, I, he called the bishops because when, when he had the state president call, I told, I called the state

Brennen [03:49:19] president, then I contacted every other bishop. Right, right. And then that's when we were realizing something was going on. And then after that, I wanted to talk to the bishop again because now that I realized that, you know, it didn't make sense that he would say these things and the stake president would say otherwise. So I wanted to check back in with him and be like, okay, I really, I really don't want to think it's you. I don't want it to be you. And at the end, and truly at the time, I really did not want. Want it to be him that, that he was the one who was, you know, organizing this whole thing. And so I wanted to call him and I wanted to see what he had to say.

Brennen [03:50:01] So.

John Dehlin [03:50:02] Okay, so this is you calling the original bishop now?

Brennen [03:50:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:50:06] To kind of clarify.

Brennen [03:50:08] Yes, yes.

Brennen [03:50:09] After having talked, same bishop who we did the disciplinary council with.

John Dehlin [03:50:13] Okay, let's, let's hear how that goes.

Brennen [03:50:21] I, so, you know, following the disciplinary council, I, I know you, you, you

Brennen [03:50:30] told me during the council that you'd

Brennen [03:50:32] kind of received some instruction that, that kind of

Brennen [03:50:37] made me feel, I guess,

Brennen [03:50:40] better about, about the situation that, that, you know, you weren't really going out of the, out of your way with the intention of, like, going on a

Brennen [03:50:50] witch hunt for me.

Guest [03:50:53] Oh, absolutely not on that one. Yeah, I know that you felt like that, but yeah,

Brennen [03:51:01] that was, that was good to hear.

Brennen [03:51:02] When you told me that I was able to talk to recently president because

Brennen [03:51:13] my next thought was that he was the one who had given instruction for

Brennen [03:51:18] this council to happen when it wasn't required. And I talked to him and he said that he had it. Which

Brennen [03:51:28] you know, which I guess confused me when. But when you had said that you had received, received some kind of instruction.

Brennen [03:51:36] But I, I just assumed that it come from president, I guess on all those things.

Guest [03:51:45] I, I'm not really one to point the fingers at anybody else in. So I had the sense you were asking that in the, in the membership council. And that's, that's not one that I really do. You know, I keep our conversations with that about this all private and I kind of do the same thing with the other one thing that we didn't talk about during that. I have, since I've been a bishop, you know, I haven't had a lot of these.

Guest [03:52:19] Yours is the first one that has been for a same same sex attraction know all the others have been heterosexual type issues. And so I did have the sense that. Are you going after me because. Because I'm gay. And I want you to be clear that, you know, that's not the issue. I think that once again it seemed like you had really hurt feelings about that process. And one of the reasons I said hey, yeah, bring Doug along is I didn't want you to feel alone. You know, I don't want you to certainly. Don't you feel attacked with it? I think you're probably, probably still do.

Guest [03:52:54] But like I was saying there, there's a lot of people that I consider really good friends that in order to be a member of the church, they would have to change. Right. So if they like tea, if they drink coffee, they drink alcohol, if they smoke. And I have friends that do all of those things and all of those things would have to change in.

Guest [03:53:15] And so yeah, that's, that's one you, you know, I don't want you to feel like, hey, I'm being singled out. That's not the case. It's just one. I guess I'd ask you a couple questions. Are you doing other things that would, I mean other, other than that from our conversation we had last time. Do you still keep like the word of wisdom?

Brennen [03:53:39] I, I would, I would say so,

Douglas [03:53:44] yeah.

Guest [03:53:44] Okay. You don't drink coffee or tea?

Brennen [03:53:48] No, I, if, if I, if I

Brennen [03:53:51] can bishop my life, my whole reasoning with going around and in this case calling a state president is I just, I mean that's.

John Dehlin [03:54:00] So this is like now he's just Trying to gather new evidence, information, new ammo against you. He already had the dispute. Married counsel.

Kyle Ashworth [03:54:09] Can I get. Please answer the question for 200, Alex. That's what we're trying to ask this.

John Dehlin [03:54:14] And he's saying, we're not targeting you out. We're not singling you out. But. But are you. Are you living the word of wisdom that's basically saying, we know why we excommunicated you. It's bad optics. It doesn't look good to excommunicate people for same sex marriage. Now you caught us. Stake president's concerned.

Kyle Ashworth [03:54:33] State president's unaware. First off, a stake president is unaware based on the point of your conversations.

Brennen [03:54:38] Exactly.

Kyle Ashworth [03:54:38] Hey, I called the stake president. The stake president is clueless.

John Dehlin [03:54:41] Except the stake president told him to do it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:54:44] According to the bishop.

Kyle Ashworth [03:54:45] According to the bishop.

John Dehlin [03:54:46] According to the bishop. But then, but then the stake president

Kyle Ashworth [03:54:49] hears it for the first time.

John Dehlin [03:54:51] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:54:51] And then the bishop then says, well, let's see, we already hold the count. Held the council. We already judged you. It's a word of wisdom issue, isn't it?

John Dehlin [03:55:01] Do you live the word of wisdom? You drink tea, which they don't excommunicate people for. So why is it Even relevant when

Kyle Ashworth [03:55:10] 30 seconds prior to that he's like, well, yeah, you were in a same sex relationship. That is the reason why we held this council.

John Dehlin [03:55:16] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:55:16] And again, the handbook goes back to saying, we don't excommunicate people for same gender relationships.

John Dehlin [03:55:22] Yeah.

Brennen [03:55:23] Something else I, I really want to clear up right now because I know, I feel like people watching or, you know, who. Who want to scrutinize this situation are going to say, well, the bishop said he had received instruction, which could have meant he just, you know, had received instruction in like a bishop's council, you know, where they, they train.

Gerardo Sumano [03:55:42] Kind of like a training.

Brennen [03:55:43] Like a training, you know. But when I'm talking to him in this phone call, I said, okay, well, it doesn't make sense, right, that you said you'd receive instruction, but the stake president didn't. He's like. And then he says, I'm not, I'm not someone to throw anybody under the bus.

John Dehlin [03:55:58] Yeah.

Brennen [03:55:58] So anybody.

Kyle Ashworth [03:56:00] He.

Brennen [03:56:00] He could have just easily said, well, this was a training thing. He's saying anybody, which means a person. So there is a. There is people involved in the actual instruction.

Gerardo Sumano [03:56:10] And if you, and if you go back to the first conversation when you asked, when he admits that he had received instruction to do this or had a conversation with the stake president about it, but he kind of kept prolonging it because he was conflicts, internal conflicts about it.

Brennen [03:56:30] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:56:33] Isn't this interesting? Like honestly just the listeners following along. I'm watching our live feed, live chat on Latter day stories and, and the Mormon stories one as well. This is, this is mind boggling. This is, this is how the Mormon Church functions. These are the reasons why there are people who are standing in, in places of advocacy to stand up. And it isn't a fight against the Church. It isn't trying to begrudge or bemoan or hurt the Church. This is a problem that we're seeing over and over and over again. Is it a rogue bishop? Is it inaccurate information? If it is a rogue bishop, we can deal with bishops by maybe exposure to showing some light in some of these dark corners and closets.

Kyle Ashworth [03:57:12] But I, I tend to think this is more of an issue between junior or grassroots leadership and upper management. The, the water isn't making it to the end of the row here. If, if indeed this is how the church is supposed to function, there better be some better, better education and clarity as to the role of a bishop, the role of a stake president and the role of general authorities in terms of same sex marriages attractions. Because your bishop even brings it up and says I'm punishing you because of your same sex attraction. That tells me that the bishop is not educated enough in this topic where he's saying you're being punished for your same sex attraction. He doesn't even bring up the fact that you're being punished for your marriage.

Douglas [03:57:51] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [03:57:52] For your same gender marriage. So to me this is a bishop that is reacting off of terms that he's not even familiar with and making life change changing decisions on behalf of members that are not even part of his ward.

Gerardo Sumano [03:58:03] Eternal decisions in terms of Mormonism.

Kyle Ashworth [03:58:06] Sure, if you're fully subscribed.

Brennen [03:58:08] And this is why it seems so fickle the entire time.

Kyle Ashworth [03:58:10] Amen.

John Dehlin [03:58:11] Well, I'm worried that it's the stake president. Well, that it's area authorities. This is the pattern. The pattern is general authorities or area authorities telling stake presidents to fix a problem. The stake president tells the local leader to fix it it, but then, but then they want to hang out the local leader to dry as being responsible.

Guest [03:58:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:58:32] And so the stake president is actually not being honest or forthcoming about the fact that he directed this to begin with and he's trying to push the blame down on the bishop. I'm not saying that's what's happening.

Brennen [03:58:45] That's definitely what thought of as.

John Dehlin [03:58:48] Well, I'm worried that that's what's happening because that is the historical pattern. Which means potentially the stake president's completely lying. Potentially.

Guest [03:58:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:58] I'm not saying he is. I'm just saying how else do we explain that? The bishop starts by saying, I didn't want to do this. The stake president told me to do it. And then later the stake president's like, what? I didn't tell him to do anything.

Gerardo Sumano [03:59:10] And then we don't even do those kind of stuff.

Kyle Ashworth [03:59:12] Yeah, we don't, we don't excommunicate for those, those things. Yeah, yeah, that's my point, is that this really, this needs to, the water needs to make it to the end of the row. And by the end of the row, I really mean it's the bishop.

Kyle Ashworth [03:59:22] The water needs to go from 50 North Temple and make it all the way down to the bishop, and everybody needs to be on the same page. And in that vein, though, I, I'm, I, I hate to. Because Mormonism is one of those that you, we all fought against the law of Moses, this letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. And, and you hate to get to a point where you say, like, the letter of the law is this. And, and even though the spirit of the law should justify this.

Kyle Ashworth [03:59:48] But when you. I don't know. This is a, this is a fine line. This is really tough territory. But if the church is going to enact policies like this, everybody needs to be on the same page and how that policy is administered.

Douglas [03:59:58] That's my point.

Gerardo Sumano [03:59:59] What makes me doubt more about the bishop telling the truth rather than the stake president, is the fact that the bishop has said several times that he contacted his, the bishops or stake presidency of his current word or stake president or, or, or stake. When, when we know that probably didn't happen.

Kyle Ashworth [04:00:23] We're, we're confident that didn't happen.

Brennen [04:00:25] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [04:00:25] Because these two contacted every bishop and every stake president in the history of their existence, from high school forward to their married life, and nobody, nobody could remember a conversation with this particular bishop who's holding this membership council. That is problematic.

Brennen [04:00:41] Very problematic.

Gerardo Sumano [04:00:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:00:43] Okay, so you redirect after he insults you by bringing up new evidence and asking you about the word of wisdom. You redirect.

Douglas [04:00:52] Yeah.

Brennen [04:00:52] I say, here's the distinction.

John Dehlin [04:00:55] So let's hear what's next.

Brennen [04:00:59] I don't want it be you is. I guess my, my, my big thing is it's, it just, it just still doesn't make sense. If it wasn't required for the council to Be had. And, and when, when you told me that you'd received instruction, that made more sense in my mind because.

Brennen [04:01:19] Told me that you weren't the one

Brennen [04:01:21] doing the council, you weren't the one calling it for my same sex marriage.

Brennen [04:01:26] It was, it was the stake president, but the stake president said it wasn't him.

Brennen [04:01:30] And, and I just, I just don't

Brennen [04:01:33] want it to be you because I, that's, I think that's where it hurts.

Guest [04:01:40] Sure.

Brennen [04:01:41] And so,

Brennen [04:01:44] yeah, I, I, that's what I wanted to call and ask about because if the stake president said that

Brennen [04:01:51] it wasn't him, but you said you received instruction, it, I, I don't know.

Guest [04:01:58] Yeah. And I understand that. One thing that, I guess the question that I still have for you, Brennan, is I'm trying to think if there are any examples in my own mind, but, you know, if I was a

Douglas [04:02:11] part of a group that later I

Guest [04:02:13] disagreed with, you know, I guess I'm not. I, I understand that this is a hurtful thing to you. I wish that it were. I actually was hoping that it would be softer with having Doug there and everything. But if I was part of a group and I no longer agree with them, I actually don't want to be in that group. Are you still wanting to be a member of the church?

John Dehlin [04:02:39] Are we seriously going back here again? Didn't we already, did we already have this conversation?

Brennen [04:02:47] Yeah, we did.

Brennen [04:02:48] We did.

Douglas [04:02:49] And he keeps saying he's not recommending that we resign.

Brennen [04:02:54] I never recommended it to you.

Kyle Ashworth [04:02:57] Clearly, this is your fault again.

Brennen [04:02:58] Right, right. I would want to.

Gerardo Sumano [04:03:01] Well, if I, like, why do you care if I killed you? If you wanted to be killed anyway?

Brennen [04:03:05] Yeah. If I were, if I were in a group that I didn't agree with, I would have already left. Belittling, belittling. That's what it is.

Kyle Ashworth [04:03:16] Does anybody else feel like the bishop is now reeling? Like this is like now for the very first moment, like, to me this is evident that, oh, he gets it. Like, oh, and his very best recourse is. No, no, no, no, no, you want to leave. Right. So we're just gonna, we're gonna, the ends are going to justify the means in this very same.

John Dehlin [04:03:37] It's super outrageous because how many times did he ask you that in the disciplinary council if you wanted to be a member or not? Like that case was closed.

Douglas [04:03:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:03:48] And now he's acting like he doesn't even remember that that was discussed like five different ways in the original disciplinary council. He's just, he's really, he's Absolutely.

Brennen [04:03:58] And I did tell him. I did tell him. I said, I still have intentions to

Brennen [04:04:02] remove my records from the church.

Brennen [04:04:04] And he asks me now, so do you want to stay in the church? I already told you, I have the

Brennen [04:04:10] intentions to remove my records eventually.

Kyle Ashworth [04:04:13] But. And I think you were very, very clear in the membership council where you said, if it means I sit through this council and realize my fate, essentially holding the hand of my husband, that is. That is the direction I want to go. I will leave the church under those terms knowing that I'm leaving the church holding the hand of someone that I love. And I want that as the example. I want that as you saying this is the reason why we had to kick you out of the church. It's because of the person's hand that you hold that is the reason why we're kicking you out of the church.

Kyle Ashworth [04:04:44] You were really clear. You didn't say, I want to just resign my membership and walk away. You said, I want you. I want this to be on your shoulders, on your table where you kick me out of the church based on falling in love and living to the fullest measure of my creation. I want that. I don't want just to walk away. And he didn't get it.

Brennen [04:05:03] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:05:04] Or chooses not to understand.

Brennen [04:05:05] I'm glad someone got it. Thank you.

Kyle Ashworth [04:05:08] I should be a bishop.

John Dehlin [04:05:09] Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [04:05:10] People are saying that I should train bishops.

Douglas [04:05:13] Yeah.

Brennen [04:05:14] There you go.

John Dehlin [04:05:15] Maybe, maybe this will become bishop training. Hopefully required viewing of all bishops. Mormon stories by. All right, let's, let's, let's keep it going. Let's see what's next. I hope I didn't lose the place. Okay.

Brennen [04:05:30] You wanted to clarify on my beliefs in the church. My.

Guest [04:05:35] I wish it weren't. I actually was hoping that it would be softer with having doubt there.

Brennen [04:05:40] Right on time.

Gerardo Sumano [04:05:40] To the right. To the right.

Brennen [04:05:41] No, you're good.

Guest [04:05:42] If I was part of a group and I no longer agree with them, I actually don't want to be in that group.

Douglas [04:05:47] Group.

Guest [04:05:49] Are you still wanting to be a member of the church? That.

Brennen [04:05:53] That was something.

Brennen [04:05:54] I guess that.

Brennen [04:05:55] That was hard for me during our council. Was. Was to clarify on. Was.

Brennen [04:06:02] Was when you wanted to clarify on

Brennen [04:06:05] my beliefs in the church.

Brennen [04:06:07] My, my main frustration was when I

Brennen [04:06:10] was called for my same sex marriage call conduct, not for my beliefs in the church.

Brennen [04:06:15] I wasn't.

Brennen [04:06:16] I wasn't called because I no longer believed in the church. And if I, if I was called for that, then there would have been some kind of attempt to,

Brennen [04:06:28] to maybe ask about those beliefs or to, to

Brennen [04:06:34] remediate those or figure out how, you know, we can talk through those kind of things.

Brennen [04:06:39] But I wasn't called for that.

Brennen [04:06:40] I was called for, for same sex marriage. And, and, and that's, and that's what was troubling and, and, and hard for me.

Brennen [04:06:52] And, and I, I hurts that we shy away from that issue because it's

Brennen [04:06:59] not about my beliefs in the church. There are so many beliefs I have in the church on to. I still believe in a higher power. I, I still have a lot of my moral belief systems that are tied to the church because I know they're good morals. But I wasn't called to the council for that.

Brennen [04:07:17] I was called because I was married to Doug.

Brennen [04:07:19] And so it.

Guest [04:07:22] Sure. And Brennan, I'm not really shying away from that. What I'm saying is, in the council, you, when you talked this, you actually read that letter. I thought it was a well written letter. And you said, you know, I don't really believe the church. I don't believe the tents of the church. I don't believe it's inspired. And systematically you went through one leader after another that had said things that you said. I disagree with all of these and I'm okay with that. You know, like I said, I have many friends and.

John Dehlin [04:07:48] Okay, wait, is that what happened? Did you say in your letter, here's a bunch of things I don't believe? Or did you simply read, write really awful quotes?

Brennen [04:07:58] That's.

Brennen [04:07:59] That's all I did.

Kyle Ashworth [04:08:00] I don't want to say a really awful. Did you read the historical record?

John Dehlin [04:08:04] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:08:04] Did you read exactly what the church members have said?

John Dehlin [04:08:07] But is that, is that, is that. Am I hearing that right?

Gerardo Sumano [04:08:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:08:10] Am I remembering it right?

Gerardo Sumano [04:08:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:08:12] You did not ever make a personal statement of belief about any of those Boyd K. Packers, Spencer W. Kimball, Dallin H. Oaks, Russell M. Nelson quotes. You simply read them and showed that they contradicted each other or that they were problematic or fraud.

Gerardo Sumano [04:08:29] He was, when he was quoting mostly is him asking question, which one am I supposed to follow? Is it Cook or is it. Or is it Oaks? Is it this one or is it that one? And he did say at the beginning that he didn't think that the church,

Brennen [04:08:44] the church teachings on LGBTQ issues are divinely inspired, but it was specific on

John Dehlin [04:08:50] l. How many, how many members agree with that?

Gerardo Sumano [04:08:53] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:08:53] I hear there are apostles who don't agree with the church's current policy.

Brennen [04:08:58] He's trying to paint my written statement like I just read all these things and I said I disagree with them and that's it.

Douglas [04:09:04] The words he used was, you are coming after all the leaders of the church. Well, none of that was what you read today or that day was coming

Kyle Ashworth [04:09:14] after any of their possible word of wisdom didn't work. Coffee and tea didn't work. The fact that you didn't resign your membership on your own didn't work. So now the next most logical we have to go to. You said bad things about the church,

John Dehlin [04:09:28] which you, which he invented because all

Kyle Ashworth [04:09:30] you did was read the actual words

John Dehlin [04:09:32] of, actual words of general authorities.

Brennen [04:09:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:35] That's outrageous. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:36] And, and we're going to talk about it later a little bit more. But the, the definition of apostasy is very, very well defined in the handbook. It is teaching false doctrine is clear after repetitive preaching false doctrine after being corrected by a church leader and, and continue to do it.

Brennen [04:09:55] And clear and repetitive public doming of the church.

John Dehlin [04:10:00] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [04:10:00] It's not a private meeting on a bishop telling him like what you think about some of the teachings, especially when

Brennen [04:10:06] they asked for it.

Kyle Ashworth [04:10:07] Yeah, I don't know.

Brennen [04:10:08] And all you can provide relevant information,

Kyle Ashworth [04:10:10] you posted on social media picture of you two holding hands and at your wedding. So a picture is worth a thousand words.

Douglas [04:10:17] He just says that later. He's like, oh, you posted about your same sex marriage. And it was very.

John Dehlin [04:10:22] Yeah, yeah.

Brennen [04:10:23] That's gonna come up in the next recording.

John Dehlin [04:10:25] Okay.

Brennen [04:10:25] All right.

John Dehlin [04:10:25] This is just ridiculous.

Kyle Ashworth [04:10:27] Clearly scraping the bottom of the barrel.

John Dehlin [04:10:29] All right.

Guest [04:10:29] It comes to excuses, coworkers that don't share my beliefs, and that's 100 their prerogative. But in, in during the council, you said, I don't believe really the church is inspired. I don't believe the current prophets inspired. I don't believe the teachings of the church are inspired.

Brennen [04:10:49] Right. And so if that wasn't the problem, if, if, because I agree with you

Brennen [04:10:53] that, that having those differing belief systems is okay, and every person has the right to having different beliefs and different things. We are called the Council for Same Sex Marriage.

Brennen [04:11:11] And, and that's what I, what I don't really want to shy away from

Brennen [04:11:17] because I agree with you on those things.

Brennen [04:11:19] And I mean you, you had told me that you had an internal conflict

Brennen [04:11:25] related to same sex marriage.

Brennen [04:11:28] And it's, it still does not register

Brennen [04:11:32] in my mind why the council was

Brennen [04:11:34] held then if it wasn't required, unless you had received instruction from somebody else.

Brennen [04:11:38] But it sounds like you haven't, so.

Guest [04:11:42] Brennan, I would not say that. Listen, I'm not making things up I'm also not going to hang anybody out else out to dry. This is, this is something that I'm happy to own it, I'm telling you is, yeah, I would much rather just leave it alone.

Guest [04:11:57] The, the thing that I guess I don't fully understand, if you wanted to remain a member of the church, you kind of already laid it out, so we didn't really have a long discussion about this. If someone who is gay wants to remain a member of the church in good standing, then it does mean a life of celibacy. Celibacy. I think that that's a brutal, that would be brutally difficult. Having said that, you know, until, until I was 23 and got married, I led a life of celibacy. And until, you know, until you met Doug, it sounds like you did too. So, I mean, I get that whole thing.

Guest [04:12:32] And in, in the council, he said that's not really something I think is reasonable. You even talked with, with us about, you know, he, he got remarried after his wife died. So if he couldn't lead a life of celibacy, how can, how can I or anyone else who's gay be expected to?

Guest [04:12:51] That's one where again, I wish I understood more about that whole thing, but, but that is the way it's set right now. If someone does have, if someone is gay, if someone has those types of, you know, those feelings. And in, in the process of this, again, you asked about the timing of a letter. I'll call press, I'll ask him about that. With regard to the, the other question though, if you wanted to return to full activity in the church, I'm going

John Dehlin [04:13:27] to make one quick comment. One quick comment. We've been talking about fundamentalist Mormonism and, and particularly Warren Jeffs in the FLDS church. And a lot of times Mormons want to say there's no relationship between Warren Jeffs and the FLDS Church and Joseph Smith or the modern, modern day prophets and the LDS Church. One of the things that marks Warren Jeffs is the fact that he gets to decide who gets married to who and who has sex and who doesn't.

John Dehlin [04:13:56] And you know, what we, what we talked about just recently in an interview was that once Warren Jess was incarcerated, he literally made the rule, no touching, no marriages and no having sex and no babies. Until I can do that again. I don't, I'm not able to have sex. So now no one can as well. I know that some people are going to find this to be a stretch, but you know, these heterosexual married men who get to have sex with their spouses whenever they decide to have sex. It's very similar. They're basically saying who gets to have sex and who doesn't. And they're saying, yeah, okay, if you don't want to shoot yourself and we don't want to shoot you, then we're going to administer this.

John Dehlin [04:14:42] This chronic poison of celibacy that I would never want to live with, that I don't have to live with, that I get to have sex with my spouse with whenever we agree, but you just get to drink the poison for the rest of your life until you die from the poison, basically. That's like extending the metaphor. But it reminds me of Warren Jeffs, because this guy has no idea what he's asking you to do. He says he lived as a celibate until he was 23 or whatever.

John Dehlin [04:15:12] We don't know what he was doing to compensate for that beforehand. What's the likelihood that he wasn't masturbating before he was 23? Zero. You know, 5.1percent likelihood. So he was doing that. And then, you know, and so.

Gerardo Sumano [04:15:28] But.

John Dehlin [04:15:29] But it's again, this patriarchy idea that. That is very. Warren Jeffs. We get to decide who has sex and who doesn't.

Kyle Ashworth [04:15:36] And not only the decision as to who can perform or be involved in those type of experiences, but the unfortunate part, too, is the Latter Day Saint culture. The members of the church aren't given an opportunity to better understand this topic because it's also those straight, heterosexual men who are speaking on behalf of the gay community. They are telling other straight people what it's like to be gay. They are. They are the ones that are standing up in front of these behind pulpits or in these chapels saying, here's what it's like to be gay. Here's why we have to have celibacy. Here's why you can't get into into a relationship. They don't have any understanding what it's like to be on the other side of the aisle. They are speaking from positions of. Of privilege.

Gerardo Sumano [04:16:20] Privilege.

Kyle Ashworth [04:16:20] That's a great way of putting it. They just don't know what it's like to be gay. However, the Mormon culture, traditional Mormonism, has provided the only avenue for other Latter Day Saints to better understand this topic through the lens of straight people telling other straight people what it's like to be gay. And the people who are. Who are at the.

Brennen [04:16:36] The.

Kyle Ashworth [04:16:37] The biggest disadvantage here are the queer Latter Day Saints, the LGBTQ Latter Day Saints who still occupy pews, who are trying to Navigate this. They're literally holding on to the church and life in many situations by their fingertips. And they are the ones who are at a disadvantage because leaders like this claim to speak for and on.

Guest [04:16:56] On.

Kyle Ashworth [04:16:57] On their behalf, and it is not right. We need to start hearing the stories and experiences of. Of the LGBTQ people and how a church led by predominantly heterosexual straight men are harming the lived experiences of the LGBTQ community. And this is a great example of that happening.

Brennen [04:17:14] They're not only victims, but they're painted as perpetrators.

Douglas [04:17:17] Great point.

Brennen [04:17:18] That they. That they are the enemy. And if, you know, if other church members actually go and talk to a gay member of the church and figure out that they're not a terrible person and they're not this, you know, this thing that the church makes them out to be, then the whole narrative will fall apart.

Kyle Ashworth [04:17:37] The narrative falls up. Exactly right. And. And when you've invested 40 or 50 years into this topic, I say, I. E. Elder Oaks, who has spent most of his life advocating against homosexuality. When you are faced with 50 years of your legacy drained away because there are queer people who are willing to stand up on their own two feet and show the. The general membership of the church that they are none of the things the church promised that they are, that they actually have fulfilling, happy, spiritual spirit experiences in their life, what does that say? What does that do to the ego, to the legacy of someone like President Oaks, who is next in line to become prophet of the church?

Kyle Ashworth [04:18:16] He is now going to double and triple down on his rhetoric to make sure the membership. And he's going to try to corral the members to make sure they're on his side so that everybody. And it's back to what John just talked about in the war and just situation so that you just don't look at it, you don't see it. You don't acknowledge it. Because we cannot for a moment give into this idea that our rhetoric was. Was it was wrong or incomplete.

Douglas [04:18:38] Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:18:39] It's too much of an investment.

John Dehlin [04:18:43] Well, yeah, there needs to be some type of sensitivity training. Really? Really. Where, like, every bishop goes a year without sex just to kind of understand what he's asking a gay Mormon man to do.

Kyle Ashworth [04:18:55] I'm not going to become a bishop

John Dehlin [04:18:57] anymore because they have no idea what they're asking.

Brennen [04:19:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:19:02] Especially once the genie's out of the bottle. I mean, all of us who have been married or have had sex know that once you've had it, you. You know, you don't just, oh, yeah, okay. I Won't do it anymore. Like you, you want it, you need it. It's a normal part of healthy human development. So to just ask someone to shut that off for a year, even a month or six months or a lifetime, they should have to do it for a year before they even entertain that discussion. Yeah, I think, yeah. Okay, let's keep going.

Brennen [04:19:35] Great, great. Recommendations to send to the higher ups.

Guest [04:19:40] It would mean celibacy, which is a, I understand that that would be a very difficult doctrine. If my wife dies, I am, you know, unless I remarry, I would be leading a life of celibacy. In, in our particular relationship. I wouldn't have any interest in necessarily getting married again, at least not unless or until something changed. So I, I guess I'm empathic on that. Having said that, those are some of the terms that normally we would have discussed.

John Dehlin [04:20:15] And I mean, in my experience, Mormon men get married like within six months of their spouse dying on average like that. I'm not saying that's every Mormon man, but the idea that he's going to go 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 10 years, I almost have never seen that happen. I don't know what your, your experiences are, but I'm always shocked at like the body's barely still warm and the Mormon man is, has found his new fiance and is going to be married within the year.

Kyle Ashworth [04:20:45] Well, yeah, Brendan brought that up in the initial. It was 14 months for President Nelson after his, his wife passed away that he married Wendy.

Brennen [04:20:53] So it didn't take as the prophet of the church. Church and 80 plus years old.

John Dehlin [04:21:00] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:21:02] Bizarre.

Kyle Ashworth [04:21:03] It is bizarre. And oh my gosh, Mormons.

John Dehlin [04:21:06] All right, let's keep going.

Guest [04:21:09] You had already laid it out saying that's just not tenable. And I get it. I understand that.

Brennen [04:21:16] I, I, I appreciate you saying that.

Brennen [04:21:20] At one point, one of the things

Brennen [04:21:21] that I really appreciated about the council was you giving me your undivided attention and really listening to what I had to say.

Brennen [04:21:34] That really meant a lot to me.

Brennen [04:21:36] So. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Brennen [04:21:44] Can I ask you one more question?

Guest [04:21:46] Of course. You can ask me a dozen more questions. Questions.

Brennen [04:21:50] You had told me that in order for the council to be held, you we have to contact the bishop of where I live. If it's outside of board boundaries, that is. Who, who was that, that bishop that you contacted? If you don't mind my asking?

Guest [04:22:07] I would have to go back and look at the record. So that was, oh, probably a year and a half ago. We are contacting them to give them the church Record. So when we go through and we clean up church records, I guess it was probably. It would have been when the new work was formed, so in June of last year. And we were going to send your records over there in the course of that conversation and after that. So again, I'd have to go back. I'd have to. Look. I. I don't remember their name.

Brennen [04:22:40] Are you saying the council was being.

Brennen [04:22:43] Was in the works all the way

Brennen [04:22:44] back in June of last year?

Guest [04:22:48] There was a discussion about it, yeah.

Brennen [04:22:50] Do you remember if it was like a YSA award?

Brennen [04:22:53] Because I guess I wouldn't be in a married ward.

Brennen [04:22:56] So would the bishop have been YSA then?

Guest [04:22:59] So, honestly, Brennan, I really don't remember.

Brennen [04:23:02] Okay,

Guest [04:23:05] I can dig on it. I. In asking these questions, I still get the sense that you want to find out who is behind all this and can I go after them?

Douglas [04:23:14] Right.

Guest [04:23:16] That's. I think that that kind of misses the point a little bit. I mean, if you're angry, you can certainly be angry with me. I can tell you that. I don't, you know, I certainly don't dislike. Harbor any ill will towards you.

Guest [04:23:35] And I completely understand those of the LGBTQ community being irritated with the church and this stance on, you know, same gender relations. I. I understand all of that. In the most recent conference, President Nelson was talking about that. He said that they've worked. Worked with members of that community, and they've tried to help with some legislation to protect people.

Guest [04:24:04] And so it was kind of a joint effort. And he said, you know, lines of differentiation need not be battle lines. And that's one. I still get the sense from this that you feel like you've been attacked, and that's. That's actually exactly not what I want to have there. I don't want you to feel like there's any, you know, any of that happening.

Guest [04:24:27] I can tell you, again, from my perspective, I think you're a wonderful person. If you decided to work in the year, I would love to work with you. You know, if we were having a backyard barbecue, you and Doug would both be invited. I'd love to have you there. I was a little bit bothered when. I don't remember if it was either you or Doug said, you know, people have. Members of the. Members of the church will have family members that are gay, and they kind of shun and reject them. And when I hear that, that's one that. I think that's definitely not what I've been taught. With the way the gospel is supposed to be implemented, it's certainly not any of the beliefs or, or things that I have.

Brennen [04:25:13] No, I agree.

Identifying Contradictions and Dishonesty in the Process

Kyle Ashworth [04:25:14] Can we get to like lie 37 in this whole thing? This is just so frustrating to me about the timeline.

John Dehlin [04:25:21] Well, I mean you're basically saying who's behind this? And he's like, I can tell you want to know who's behind this, but

Brennen [04:25:28] I'm not going to tell you because it was so long ago and I don't remember.

John Dehlin [04:25:31] But what I'm going to say is I can tell you're angry, but you, you shouldn't be angry because we love you. If there was a barbecue, I would invite you to it.

Brennen [04:25:41] If you want to be angry, be angry at me.

Kyle Ashworth [04:25:43] But we started this a year and a half ago when we knew that you were in a same gender relationship, that you were married. But just like we brought up in the beginning of this talk, this episode. That is impossible. He literally the best he could have found out was in January of 2022, because that's when you posted it on social media.

Douglas [04:26:00] Maybe the Holy Spirit whispered to him

Kyle Ashworth [04:26:02] a year and a half earlier.

Brennen [04:26:03] Yeah, they were married.

Kyle Ashworth [04:26:05] They are four or 10 ordained to be excommunicated. From my.

John Dehlin [04:26:09] Yeah, the timeline isn't lining up at all.

Kyle Ashworth [04:26:11] It doesn't, doesn't line up. Not even, not even within.

Gerardo Sumano [04:26:13] Not even close.

Kyle Ashworth [04:26:14] It doesn't, it does not line up.

Gerardo Sumano [04:26:16] It doesn't line up either that he got his address on May 2nd.

John Dehlin [04:26:20] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:26:20] So how did he contact the bishops and take precedence?

John Dehlin [04:26:24] How do you know the word boundaries? How did he know where to put his membership records?

Douglas [04:26:27] He didn't know their address until he

Kyle Ashworth [04:26:29] doesn't know a month ago. They did not exist. This bishop did not speak to any other prior bishops of Brennan's. He didn't do it. There's, it's not plausible.

John Dehlin [04:26:37] But then he immediately says it doesn't matter because we love you and we'd have you to a barbecue. And, and he throws in. And the churches. So the church loves the gays. They're, they're, you know, they're working, they're working with the LGBT community to pass non discrimination legislation. And we all know on Mormon stories because we covered it extensively.

Brennen [04:26:58] Required.

Brennen [04:26:59] Wasn't it?

John Dehlin [04:26:59] But that non discrimination legislation gives the church the right to discriminate. It's not even, it's not even non discriminatory legislation. It's basically saying we won't, we won't allow you to be kicked out of your houses or fired from your jobs if you let us continue discriminating against LGBT people in our universities. How is that an act of love? And yet he's citing that as evidence that the church loves gay people and would have them to their barbecues.

Douglas [04:27:27] Right?

John Dehlin [04:27:28] Did I get it right, Gerardo?

Brennen [04:27:29] You got it right.

Kyle Ashworth [04:27:29] It's exactly right. And the same thing exists with conversion therapy. The church was on board for banning conversion therapy so long as they were excluded from being responsible for practicing conversion therapy. The church holds the right to practice conversion therapy as a religious principle, but they were on board with the clinical side of it therapists not being able to practice conversion therapy.

Brennen [04:27:52] And this is so easy for a church going member to see and believe if the. If the church organization is telling them this. When you're that far in and when you are a good church believing Mormon and you have faith and you really trust in those people, it's not that hard to believe that. It's only when you get out of the. The whole sphere that you realize that's crazy how they're trying to convince us that. That this is how it is when really they're trying to do something completely different. You can't see it. It's like you've got. You've got the. The rose colored glasses on.

Kyle Ashworth [04:28:25] Well, that's the. My back to. My point of having episodes like this and opening up this type of discussion is that these are people who are called of God that are supposed to be our judges in Israel. These are the Latter Day Saints leaders, the Latter Day Saint leaders that other Latter Day Saints look up to. And if they're wrong, then what else are they wrong about? And that is the problem.

Gerardo Sumano [04:28:43] Problem.

Kyle Ashworth [04:28:43] We need to expose light into these closets and show the general membership that there are. And I don't even want to fault this bishop for being so pre. So ignorant on this topic. This is a global problem within Mormonism at all levels.

Gerardo Sumano [04:28:58] The.

Guest [04:28:58] The.

Kyle Ashworth [04:28:58] The higher you go, the further distant the leaders become in terms of understanding the LGBTQ experience. It's just like the experience that you talked about, John, earlier in your career, where you met a gay person for the first time and was essentially called out in that situation. I had the same opportunity just a couple weeks ago in one of my staff meetings, we got on the topic of transgenderism and what it's like to be transgender. And a lot of the members of my staff were discussing their conflicts with the transgender topic in sports. And I just bl bluntly asked them how many transgender friends that they had and how many transgender people that.

Kyle Ashworth [04:29:34] That they knew. And nobody in that room had a transgender friend. When you start aligning yourself with. With people and. And better understand their experiences, that's when the change happens. That happened for Utah governor, Governor Cox when he met Grayson and for the first time met a transgender person and said, something inside of me broke. And that will happen for you as well when you get to know these people. And unfortunately, Latter Day Saint leaders aren't finding opportunities to get to know the LGBTQ community. They're instead doing the complete opposite, and they're excluding them, and they're excommunicating them from their chapels and from their pews.

Kyle Ashworth [04:30:09] And when you get rid of them, you don't have to acknowledge them. And when you don't have to acknowledge them, you don't have to understand them. And when you don't have to understand them, you no longer need to agree with them. And that is Mormonism's problem. And that is why we're. We're having these conversations. Conversations, unfortunately, today, in 2022, in a global church.

Brennen [04:30:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:30:27] Yeah. And now, you know, Dan Hardy asked. And this is reflecting what you just said, Kyle. Dan Hardy asked at the beginning, well, you don't even want your membership. You didn't even go on a mission or get your mechanic priesthood. Why do you even care if they excommunicated you? This process is so outrageous, so insulting, so insensitive that it deserves to be spotlighted and exposed. For that reason alone, I think gross, evil incompetence.

Kyle Ashworth [04:30:53] I think Dan's comment is exactly evidence of what we've been discussing. Dan is in the same camp as this bishop who continued to say, why didn't you just want to leave the church? Right? You just don't want to be here. Right. This is an epidemic within Mormonism. This is part of the. The rhetoric and the narrative that just because you don't sign up and. And agree to everything right now, that just must mean you want to leave. And then they perpetuate that to say, well, you left because you wanted to sin, you left because. So then the waterfall of. Of excuses starts flowing over the mountain, and that's the problem that. That we start seeing. But Dan's no different than this bishop.

John Dehlin [04:31:28] There's nothing Christlike about saying, you're making us uncomfortable, so just leave.

Gerardo Sumano [04:31:35] Nothing.

John Dehlin [04:31:36] Yeah, nothing. Okay. All right, let's keep going. Wait a minute.

Guest [04:31:44] Wait a minute.

Brennen [04:31:45] I think.

Kyle Ashworth [04:31:45] Sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [04:31:45] Sorry. We could not.

Brennen [04:31:51] In life should keep us.

Guest [04:31:54] You decided to work in the year. I would love to work with you. You know, if we were having a backyard barbecue, you and Doug would Both be invited. I'd love to have. Definitely not what I've been taught with the way the gospel is supposed to be implemented.

Brennen [04:32:09] It's certainly not

Guest [04:32:12] any of the beliefs or, or things that I have.

Brennen [04:32:17] No, I agree. I don't think that our beliefs or

Brennen [04:32:21] the choices that we make in life should keep us from making relationships or from connecting with others.

Brennen [04:32:30] No, I agree with that. I think the only other, the only other question that I had is when I, when I talked to president kind of the briefing he gave me about

Brennen [04:32:43] membership councils is that for the most part usually they're only held. He said the majority of the councils that come through his office are ones

Brennen [04:32:52] that relate to like defamation of the

Brennen [04:32:56] Church where it's somebody who is still a member of, who is speaking of the church.

Brennen [04:33:03] But I just, I guess I want to clarify.

Brennen [04:33:05] I was called to our council together

Brennen [04:33:09] from, for my conduct related to same sex marriage.

Guest [04:33:15] That's right.

Brennen [04:33:16] Okay, pause, pause. That's, that's important to know.

Guest [04:33:21] And the ones that I've been involved

Gerardo Sumano [04:33:22] in, unfortunately that's, I think that's a very important line.

Brennen [04:33:26] Is that be. Because he just verified that what was the council called for? It was called for my same sex marriage conduct. Nothing else.

John Dehlin [04:33:36] We all know that. We listen to it.

Brennen [04:33:38] Exactly. And, but this, this is a, another affirmation of him saying it. Ask him directly. And this was one of the only times he answered me directly. And I'm really glad that he did this time of all times because it's very important.

John Dehlin [04:33:49] And the stake president, now we have a stake president of record saying that's not grounds for a disciplinary council.

Brennen [04:33:54] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:33:55] Let alone excommunication.

Brennen [04:33:56] Yep.

Kyle Ashworth [04:33:57] But fortunately our insurance policy is that the stake president makes the final decision. Right. So you should feel better about this anyway.

John Dehlin [04:34:03] Okay. That's important.

Brennen [04:34:04] Yeah.

Brennen [04:34:04] That's the beauty.

John Dehlin [04:34:05] All right, let's keep going.

Guest [04:34:10] Very many, most of them have been so I guess many of them have been. If someone is married and they have an affair, if they have other things

Brennen [04:34:29] like that, then I guess I probably

Brennen [04:34:32] should have asked this at the end of our council last, last Thursday.

Brennen [04:34:36] Oh, a withdrawal of records that, that like the decision that had been decided is what is that what would constitute

Brennen [04:34:49] as quote unquote excommunication?

Brennen [04:34:52] I, I, I keep confusing the, the difference in words.

Guest [04:34:58] Sure. And I think that the way that those words have been used over time have been different. The withdrawal of membership just means that you will no longer be a member of the church. Okay.

Brennen [04:35:09] Is that what used to be called excommunication?

Brennen [04:35:12] Or is that just a removal of records?

Guest [04:35:17] So when you talk about excommunication again in the, in, in our church, that is similar to it, but previously it's been one where there were also other penalties sometimes associated with it. And that also included in there in like the times of the Inquisition with the Catholic Church. So. So I think that's why the church has moved away from that just means that you're no longer.

Brennen [04:35:39] He recognizes that.

John Dehlin [04:35:40] Wow.

Brennen [04:35:41] I did.

John Dehlin [04:35:41] That is so hilarious.

Gerardo Sumano [04:35:43] Has he been listening to John Delay?

John Dehlin [04:35:47] No, because you're basically saying, what's the difference between excommunication and removal of membership?

Brennen [04:35:53] And he's trying to, he's trying. Yeah, he's trying to make it seem like they're different.

Gerardo Sumano [04:35:56] I told. I kind of before we, we, before this call, I talked to them and I said, this is probably good questions you should ask. One of my worries was that they later would come back and say, well, we didn't, we didn't decide to excommunicate you. We, you know, you misrepresented what our decision was. So I wanted him on the record saying, yes, this is excommunication. What we decided was to excommunicate you.

John Dehlin [04:36:21] And what he said was, we don't like the word excommunication anymore because it reminds people of the Spanish Inquisition.

Brennen [04:36:28] Yeah, yeah.

Douglas [04:36:29] And he also said that membership withdrawals is basically just removing your record of the church, which is not what it says on the handbook.

Brennen [04:36:37] Yeah, yeah, that's not it.

John Dehlin [04:36:39] Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:36:40] Anybody else confused? Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:36:42] Yep. Okay.

Brennen [04:36:46] That's, that's all of this. All this is is trying to clear up confusion.

Douglas [04:36:50] Yeah, yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [04:36:51] Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:36:52] Well, if we make the waters muddy

Brennen [04:36:53] enough, moved forward with the council because I remember, I remember we talked about that. You, you talked about those, those two options of, you know, removing my records by, by talking to you then or moving forward with the council. We, we had decided to move forward with the council. So were my records removed on the basis of my same sex marriage?

Guest [04:37:21] So that hasn't happened yet. That's one that we are recommending that we remove that and saying that. Brandon, you seem bothered by it again, but when we had our council, it sounds like you don't even want to be a member of the church. Is that not correct?

Brennen [04:37:36] No, that is, that is correct.

Guest [04:37:41] So I guess my question to you, Brennan, is why is this so upsetting to you?

Brennen [04:37:44] Oh, my gosh. Pause, please. Sorry.

Brennen [04:37:47] It's just.

John Dehlin [04:37:49] Brandon, why is this so upsetting to you? Brennan, Brennan, Brennan, why is this so upsetting to you?

Brennen [04:37:55] Because he is.

Brennen [04:37:58] He is.

Brennen [04:37:59] Is saying that my feelings are wrong. This is legit saying that. Okay, you're feeling this. Why are you feeling this? There's no understanding. This is the persecution, the raw persecution that I'm talking about. No acknowledgment, no sin, sympathy. Just. Why are you feeling that way? You know, I'm sorry you feel that way. Why?

Douglas [04:38:19] It makes no sense why you should feel that way. And here's the reason.

Brennen [04:38:22] Exactly. Exactly. This is the. The purest form of just somebody comes to you for help. I'm having a really hard time, you know, a really hard time doing this. Can you, you know, help me? I'm trying to work out my feelings. Why are you feeling that way? Just, you know, you shouldn't be feeling that way. Why? It's just. It's so frustrating.

John Dehlin [04:38:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:38:43] I didn't.

Brennen [04:38:44] Because in the moment, I. I wasn't really. I was focused on other things. But now listening back, it's just. It's blatant disrespect.

Brennen [04:38:50] It's.

Brennen [04:38:51] It's not caring. And they claim, they're claiming to be caring and they're claiming to be loving, but that's not what's happening.

Douglas [04:38:58] I mean, he came to be an empath earlier in this conversation. I'm super empathetic.

Brennen [04:39:03] Exactly. Your words completely contradict it.

John Dehlin [04:39:06] It's like he wasn't paying attention or listening during the entire disciplinary council. Right.

Brennen [04:39:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brennen [04:39:14] This is what, slowly starting to break down my. My confidence and shelf in them.

Brennen [04:39:19] So.

Guest [04:39:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:39:21] And by the way, there are times where I think you guys are muting the phone and talking to each other.

Brennen [04:39:25] Yeah, let's explain that. So at the time, we're going to go buy a mattress. And the call ended up being right at that point. So we had our dog with us. That's what he was barking.

John Dehlin [04:39:38] You're muting and responding to each other because.

Brennen [04:39:40] Because Doug was. He wanted to make sure that when we're getting this clarification, I'm not missing things. And, you know, we're on the phone, we have the opportunity to ask it and to. To get this clarification to clear things up. And so I mute. Doug tells me what he's like.

Douglas [04:39:59] Oh, but, you know,

Brennen [04:40:03] I'm like, okay.

Douglas [04:40:04] Talking around the subject.

Brennen [04:40:05] Yeah, yeah. And he's. He's luckily there to be able to, you know, help me catch stuff.

Guest [04:40:13] Believe the church was inspired. If I didn't believe that the current leader was a prophet, I actually don't want to be a member of it. I. I want to be out. It sounded to me during our council that's actually what you wanted.

Brennen [04:40:27] No, that's true.

Brennen [04:40:29] And the reason why I wanted to

Brennen [04:40:30] move forward with the council versus just removing my records is because I would

Brennen [04:40:38] rather

Brennen [04:40:40] leave as a married man to Doug and have the church room of my records on that basis, then to remove the records on my own time. I'd rather have my records removed because

Brennen [04:40:54] I was married to Doug. And that. That's really where I felt, like, passionate on that. I guess that's. That's why I wanted to clarify on

Brennen [04:41:02] that decision to see if that.

Brennen [04:41:04] That is actually what happened.

Brennen [04:41:05] Did I. Did I have my records removed on the basis of being married to Doug or I, you know, if that wasn't the case, sure.

Guest [04:41:17] Well. And I'll talk with President. I'll make sure that we get this letter to you, but it's one where I'm not sure you would ever, you know, act on this, but you would still be welcome to come to any meeting, just like anybody is.

John Dehlin [04:41:31] Okay, so that.

Gerardo Sumano [04:41:33] That's it?

Brennen [04:41:34] Was that the end?

John Dehlin [04:41:34] Okay, so you. You guys said goodbye or whatever.

Brennen [04:41:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:41:38] Okay, so. But he said you're welcome to still come to meetings after we barbarically, you know, commit spiritual homicide against you. You can still come to our meeting.

Kyle Ashworth [04:41:47] And you gotta love, like, he's. He's. He's doing exactly the. The Mormons.

Brennen [04:41:52] Textbook.

Kyle Ashworth [04:41:53] Yeah, very textbook.

Douglas [04:41:54] You.

Kyle Ashworth [04:41:54] You hurt them, you beat them up, then you. I mean, you start the wildfire, then you put the wildfire out. Then you go to the public and ask for them to acknowledge that you were the one who put the wildfire out. So you get the acknowledgment, judgment, and then you send them off on their way, knowing that you were the hero who saved them from the fire that

John Dehlin [04:42:11] they started and invite them to join your fire anytime.

Douglas [04:42:14] That's exactly right.

Brennen [04:42:15] I will say that the disciplinary council was cut off at a certain time because the, you know, they. They had my recommendation for excommunication. And then after that, it just became a full open conversation about what's been going on in my life. You know, like, tell us about, like, what, you know, what have you been doing recently?

John Dehlin [04:42:34] Kind of a small talk.

Brennen [04:42:35] Yeah, you know, like, oh, we, you know, we bought our house and. And, yeah, and all this stuff, as if they were actually genuinely interested because

Douglas [04:42:43] I was just sitting next to Brendan. And then literally it was like, okay, you guys, I. I'm. We're ready to Recommend that you're gonna get the membership withdrawal. And then it's like. Okay. Any questions? Like, no. Okay. That's good to see you. By the way, how have you been doing?

Brennen [04:42:59] Like, exactly that. Exactly that.

John Dehlin [04:43:02] Yeah, it's like, how'd you enjoy the play? Mrs. Lincoln. Right.

Douglas [04:43:05] Enjoy the rest of the play.

Douglas [04:43:06] Totally different person.

Brennen [04:43:07] Mrs. Lincoln.

Douglas [04:43:08] Other.

John Dehlin [04:43:09] Other than what happened to Abraham Lincoln. Mrs. Lincoln, how are you liking the play?

Brennen [04:43:15] Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. Assassination.

John Dehlin [04:43:19] Yeah. Okay, sorry. That's a. Yeah, I got it. 19th century reference. Huge thanks to Jacob Berg for, For the super chat. Those donations really help. Okay, so now if that weren't enough, there's one more recording. So. So now we're like literally four hours and 40 minutes into there. There's. There's one more. There's one more recording, right?

Brennen [04:43:43] Yeah, yeah, it's about an hour and ten minutes.

John Dehlin [04:43:46] Oh, my goodness.

Brennen [04:43:47] Yeah. So I don't know, what are we thinking at the.

Kyle Ashworth [04:43:51] A lot.

John Dehlin [04:43:52] Why don't, why don't you tell us? Kind of just set that up really quick and then we'll figure out what to do.

Brennen [04:43:57] No, of course. Yeah. So by, by this, by this point in the. After having all these calls contacting different bishops and stake presidents, it's clear that there's misinformation and there is no consistency in what's going on. And so eventually we figure out that the only way that we're hopefully going to get answers to any of these things is we're going to sit both the stake president and the bishop down and ask them these things. What's going on? Why are you like, why are you guys saying different things? And they don't. And hopefully in that case, they won't have the opportunity to be like, well, I'll just go talk to the bishop, you know, right after this call, or I'll go, you know, talk to the state president, you know, get some counsel on this, and then I'll get back to you.

Brennen [04:44:48] I. So now that they're here together, we can get these answers and we can get some clarity about. To hopefully prove to us that they're not out persecuting gay people. So.

Brennen [04:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:45:01] So this is a final meeting in person with both of you and the stake president and the bishop to get everything straight, Is that right?

Brennen [04:45:10] Two days ago.

John Dehlin [04:45:11] It happened. Two days ago.

Brennen [04:45:12] It happened two days ago.

John Dehlin [04:45:13] And you had not received a final letter letting you know the verdict, is that right?

Brennen [04:45:18] Yeah, I think the reason why it had been delayed so hard is because all these conversations.

John Dehlin [04:45:23] Yeah.

Brennen [04:45:23] Because they knew this is Basically my version of an appeal, even even though I hadn't formally appealed the. The decision that wasn't final, you know, that was because it never was. It never became final. All these conversations. I think the stick president is like, okay, let's, you know, let's put a pin in it. Let's not make it final yet, because there's obviously still things going on.

Gerardo Sumano [04:45:44] On the call that you had with the stick president, he told you that he was not going to move forward with any decision anyway until he met with you. And he. I mean, yeah, we, we had to pause that recording, but at the end, he tells you, I'm gonna wait until you reach out and, and you meet with me and then we'll take a decision. So that's why you decided to go forward with his. His invitation.

Douglas [04:46:08] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:46:08] And said, okay, let's meet with both of you. And you, you came prepared with several questions.

Brennen [04:46:15] Yeah. And so I want. I. Luckily we were able to kind of summarize everything that was going on, and we broke it down into these. You know, I came up with eight questions of like, these are all the contradictions and miscommunication and misconstruing of what's going on. What do you have to say? Like what? Like, what's your answer to this? And so we come up, we have these eight questions and you send them to the state. I sent them both to the stake president and to the bishop so that hopefully they would come prepared. And they can't say, well, I forgot who, you know, this was. I'd have to, you know, go do some digging before I can tell you.

Douglas [04:46:51] I tell you one of those questions. Yeah, you said, hey, Bishop. You said you contact the bishop from the ward that I was currently residing. According to the general handbook, who was the bishop that was contacted and he agreed to prepare that before this coming meeting.

Guest [04:47:06] Right?

Douglas [04:47:07] Yeah.

Brennen [04:47:07] And he says, yeah, I can go. Did that. I can go get that for you. So y. There's our precedent and we made. We want to make sure that they were prepared as well.

Brennen [04:47:15] So.

The Stake President's Follow-Up Meeting

John Dehlin [04:47:15] So I, I just want to acknowledge to our viewer, you know, we have the option right now of like stopping this and starting a part two, but there's 600 people that are listening. So I acknowledge that. Now we're going to push this to a 5 1/2 to 6 hour episode. I want to apologize for that, but it makes no sense to end it. But what we are going to do, and there's some people here that might like to use the restroom or even increase their blood sugar levels. So what we're going to do now is we're going to play this final interaction, but we're going to play it from start to finish and we're not going to jump in.

John Dehlin [04:47:48] Is that all right? And that way people can listen to it uninterrupted. We here can do whatever we need to do. And then we'll come back at the very end either just to wrap up or to have some final commentary. But we don't want to cut it off while everyone's listening.

Brennen [04:48:03] It'll. It'll be a little difficult to not jump in because there, there will be a. There will be a lot of times where if, if we don't jump in and say something, it'll be completely missed because it's like the gaslighting. This is, this next meeting is going to be like rapid fire, like example of, of gaslighting and denial. And so are you guys okay staying? I think we'll be okay at this point. I mean. No, that's 600 viewers.

John Dehlin [04:48:35] This is, this is more of a story. If it's not six or seven hours, it's not a normal story.

Brennen [04:48:39] Give me another granola bar.

Kyle Ashworth [04:48:40] The problem will be. Okay, my latter gay Stories audience, they're not. We're a one hour episode. I don't even know how we still have 150 people hanging on. So.

John Dehlin [04:48:49] Because this is important stuff.

Kyle Ashworth [04:48:50] No, I do. And that was, that was fun. Tongue in cheek. But it is intense. So thank you to our latter Day Stories audience who's held through.

John Dehlin [04:48:57] All right.

Gerardo Sumano [04:48:57] For all of our viewers, I promise that this is probably the most important part of it is.

John Dehlin [04:49:04] So it actually gets worse.

Douglas [04:49:05] Yes, it gets so much worse.

John Dehlin [04:49:07] So this is like you, you ain't seen nothing yet is basically what you're saying.

Brennen [04:49:11] Yeah. I mean, if it's hard to believe, if you think everything in the past few recordings has been civil, this, this will change your mind because at this

Gerardo Sumano [04:49:18] point you guys are, are upset.

Brennen [04:49:20] Oh yeah, right.

Gerardo Sumano [04:49:21] And you, because you, honestly, you. I, I was so amazed how cordial you were to bishop and sick president. And I have to say I cut out some of the parts where you were like complimenting the bishop and you know, having like good conversation with the. Just because, I mean, we didn't want to get it too long. But, but this, on this one, you guys were.

Brennen [04:49:41] Because at the time of those previous recordings, I was still frustrated, convinced and I still had a part of me, you know, hoping that it wasn't, it wasn't them, you know, they weren't out to get me. And by the. By the time of this conversation, it's. Everything has kind of fallen off the shelf to where it's pretty clear that this is. It's not what I once thought it was. And so.

Douglas [04:50:04] Yeah. And we already spent so many hours into this, all these conversation, you know, out of our way.

Brennen [04:50:10] Exactly. Like, remember how hard everything else in our life, we were living such a

Douglas [04:50:15] happy life, and now we spent like three, four hours plus on this, and now we're gonna get it to the end. So this is where we. The most.

Brennen [04:50:21] Yeah. To me, this was the last attempt for one of them, someone to come clean about what, you know, we were asking them about and something.

Gerardo Sumano [04:50:32] Just the last thing I would say is, like, about this point, like, you guys are very well prepared. Like, I sent you all the links from the Handbook of Instructions. Like, we prepared, like, this document where, like, with the questions and the. And the hamburger and the link and

Brennen [04:50:45] the screenshots, thoughts and like.

Gerardo Sumano [04:50:47] Yeah. So you guys were really prepared and understanding what they were trying to do. So you were trying to, like, just get clarity.

Brennen [04:50:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:50:55] I love it. That people are chiming in, saying, donate donut and keep going.

Gerardo Sumano [04:50:59] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:50:59] A lot of them are saying, like, it doesn't matter. You don't need lunch. You're exactly right. That is one principle of Mormonism.

Brennen [04:51:06] Write that down. Write that down.

John Dehlin [04:51:07] Somebody. Somebody wrote, if you work, if you go on Mormon stories, you're going to need a catheter.

Kyle Ashworth [04:51:13] I still believe in food storage and carrying around my food storage. So I'm good for lunch. I don't have to go. I'll just live off the fat of the land.

Brennen [04:51:20] A catheter and an enteral feeding tube.

John Dehlin [04:51:23] Says the nurse, right?

Brennen [04:51:24] Yes.

Douglas [04:51:24] Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [04:51:25] All right, well, let's do it. This is two days ago, June 20, 2022. Two days ago, right.

Brennen [04:51:32] Yeah.

Douglas [04:51:32] So we try you.

John Dehlin [04:51:34] You two, your stake President ambition.

Brennen [04:51:36] We tried to meet them. We tried to meet with them the week prior.

John Dehlin [04:51:39] Yeah.

Brennen [04:51:39] There was girls camp.

John Dehlin [04:51:40] Yeah.

Brennen [04:51:41] And. Yeah. So other things. But now we can.

John Dehlin [04:51:43] All right, at least. At least take a potty break, everybody. All right, here we go. Let's start it.

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [04:51:50] Sorry we could not meet last week. I was taking care of a bit of a challenge situation, so I apologize that I had to push it.

Video Clip 8 [04:51:56] No problem.

Video Clip 8 [04:51:56] But we really appreciate you guys coming down. Why don't we start with a prayer? Bishop, you mind operating?

Video Clip 8 [04:52:04] Heavenly Father, we're great for the chance we have from you today. We're grateful for the blessings that we have. We're thankful for thy son and his teachings and atonement.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:14] Father. I'm grateful for the relationship that I have a friend, and I'm grateful to

Video Clip 8 [04:52:18] be able to meet God. Grateful for the friendship that we share. We pray that that will bless us with thy spirit today. Please help us to understand what that would have us do and to act according. We say this in the name of thy son, Jesus Christ.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:34] Amen.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:35] Amen.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:35] Thanks, Bishop.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:37] Okay, well, how do you want to tackle this meeting, Brandon?

Video Clip 8 [04:52:42] I don't know.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:44] Do you have anything to start with, or do you want us to start?

Video Clip 8 [04:52:47] I think you guys are welcome to start.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:48] You talked on the phone. We had a great conversation on phone. That's why I said I think it'd be best for us to all meet in person. Honestly, I mean, it's one thing to check out on the phone. I'm so glad you're a bishop as well.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:58] I'm.

Video Clip 8 [04:52:58] I'm great with however you guys want to start, in all honesty. Okay, so, I mean, if you guys want to start.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:03] When we met, Brandon, you actually have a letter that you read.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:06] Yeah. Yeah, because the.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:10] It says in the. In the letter that we first got, the council talked about providing a written statement, and so I kind of provided a written statement of. Yeah, some things.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:23] This it?

Video Clip 8 [04:53:23] Yeah, I mean, I can read it.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:25] Let me see it real quick. I'll just read through it as we go. I'd love to. And this is what you brought that night?

Video Clip 8 [04:53:33] Yeah.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:33] And you just read it that night, huh?

Video Clip 8 [04:53:36] Yeah, because I. I really just wanted to explain my. My thoughts regarding the council, and, I mean, some of my thoughts with the church and their teachings regarding LGBTQ members of the church.

Video Clip 8 [04:53:56] I feel like a lot of the

Video Clip 8 [04:53:57] teachings that the church has, or at least that have come from general authorities, they contradict each other pretty often. And that was really my main intention with bringing the written statement, was to kind of show that even the general authorities aren't on the same page with kind of these teachings. And that was kind of our. I mean, my reasoning for believing, coming or coming to believe that the church's teachings aren't inspired by God regarding LGBTQ topics. Because if know, if it was inspired by God, then they wouldn't be contradicting each other so much. I assume God would have, you know, a consistent direction and, you know, the general authorities wouldn't contradict each other so much.

Video Clip 8 [04:54:52] So how do you guys both feel about the church? Let's take the LGBT issue and just put it on the shelf for One second, when it comes to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and all those things, how do you feel about those aspects of the gospel?

Video Clip 8 [04:55:08] This is something that I wanted to

Video Clip 8 [04:55:09] talk about because like my beliefs regarding the church. We've

Video Clip 8 [04:55:18] brother has asked me a lot about it. I mean even when, even during the

Video Clip 8 [04:55:25] council, that was something that was actually

Video Clip 8 [04:55:27] kind of troubling for me because I,

Video Clip 8 [04:55:30] I was called to the membership council for my conduct related to same sex marriage, not because of my beliefs regarding the church, of whether or not I still believe in the church. If that were the case, I'd be trying to get like, like a temple, temple recommend where you know, you need to see if the tenants of the church, if you truly believe in them, if you're worthy to be in the temple. And so that was something that kind of put me off when, when we had our meeting is because I, I

Brennen [04:56:06] wasn't called to, to be, you know,

Brennen [04:56:08] to talk about my beliefs regarding the church. It was because of I, I, I was sought out for my conduct related to, to same sex marriage. And so yeah, yeah, I think it's

Douglas [04:56:20] probably, probably some of the most troubling thing is like we're just, you know, everything was fine and then two men showed on a door with a letter with no prior contact of like asking how we're doing. And then we just got a letter

Brennen [04:56:34] with members of council.

Douglas [04:56:35] And then as we're reading into it, you know, like this is not necessary to hold a council based on same sex marriage. And so we're gonna feel persecuted, you know, a little bit. And it's like being like hunt down, like I think it says in the letter.

Brennen [04:56:49] It's like I just, I describe it as a witch hunt because, you know, I mean, I still feel it's kind of how it was and if it truly was about my beliefs regarding the church, I feel like it would have made more sense for somebody to reach out, to have somebody come by and visit to see, you know, if I still believe in the church, if I want to keep my records in the church. But that wasn't it. I was, I was called because my conduct related to same sex marriage, not for anything else.

Brennen [04:57:22] And so it feels like we're, when

Brennen [04:57:25] that comes up, it feels like we're diverting from what I was called for to come to.

Gerardo Sumano [04:57:30] You know, I guess the one thing, and we'll dive into this as well. I mean the handbook is, does I think a great job of delivering, delineating whether it is, whether it is homosexuality Heterosexual, you know, sin in your, outside of the bonds of marriage. It's all considered the same. You follow him saying so you, you say, and I understand in the lens of how you're saying it, Doug, I really do and I do have some empathy because you're saying, hey, wait a minute, it's because we are in a same sex relationship. Well, if it's a violation of the law of chastity, Bishop can tell you if it was, was a, a man in the ward that had stepped out on his wife, for example, you thought I'm saying, or was not married and was out sleeping with someone else, a woman, for example. We would hold a membership council for that individual.

Brennen [04:58:13] Right. But that's not the case.

Douglas [04:58:14] Yeah, it's a difference though because one, he's not made his temple covenants to. I'm only a priest, you know, it's very different. Versus a man who made a temple sealing covenants and step out on his wife.

Brennen [04:58:31] I haven't cheated on my spouse. I married lawfully. And then I mean just.

Douglas [04:58:36] I am an elder, but this is not my counsel. I never got called.

Brennen [04:58:40] Right.

Douglas [04:58:40] I am an elder. Yes. I'm in doubt and everything. That's why I understand. I was like, okay, it makes sense if I got called to make no sense. Brennan has been inactive for four plus years and we got married and he got called.

Brennen [04:58:54] And the tough thing is, is that

Brennen [04:58:58] that's one of the things that is

Brennen [04:59:00] kind of bothersome for me about the church is that they, they claim to be equal in treating same sex couples as, I mean the same way that you would have heterosexual couple. But heterosexual couples aren't being called to membership councils for their conduct related to marriage.

Brennen [04:59:17] And so to me.

Gerardo Sumano [04:59:19] Second push pause one second.

Brennen [04:59:20] Sure.

Gerardo Sumano [04:59:20] Are you sure about that?

Brennen [04:59:23] Are you saying that when couples get married, heterosexual couples get married under law, that they're called to a membership council?

Gerardo Sumano [04:59:31] No, not if they're married in law that you're talking about. Somebody stepped out of that relationship regardless of whether they're a priest or whatever you thought I'm saying. So you made an interesting comment about. Well, it has to do with temple covenants. It's a little bit more than that, but let's keep going with the discussion.

Douglas [04:59:43] Yeah, I mean there's many points of this, but yeah, that's one of the things that it's like I, I don't think that's happening anywhere.

Gerardo Sumano [04:59:51] Like there's, Isn't this a contract of huge contradiction because the stake president told them, I, I wish we had played that call in full, but at least five times during that conversation, that same sex marriage in about, in about itself, like just, you won't be called for a membership council just because of same sex marriage. And it seems like here he's contradicting himself to try to protect the bishop.

Kyle Ashworth [05:00:20] Yeah, it feels like it's beginning here. It's, we're now realizing the stake president's realizing why the bishop may or may not have done what he did. And it's now, I think we're building a foundation of COVID It's, it's now beginning this. We have to protect the good name of the church, which is that third tier that we talked about earlier. So if that's happening, what is it going to take to now protect the bishop? And I think this might be it.

Brennen [05:00:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:00:44] Yeah. Because he's basically saying you guys are violating the law of chastity and you got married and that violates the church's rules.

Kyle Ashworth [05:00:50] And it's up to the bishop to determine what the definition of that violating the law of chastity should look like. Because he, he makes references like it's up to the bishop to decide what that looks like.

John Dehlin [05:01:02] And he's using again instead. And at least he stopped with the stupid word of wisdom garbage. He moved on from coffee, tea and tobacco. But now, now he's comparing it to infidelity and saying it's like infidelity. And it was so great that you called him out and said, well, there's no infidelity here. Right?

Brennen [05:01:20] Yeah. And, and, and the precursor to all this. And you're right, he is starting to realize it. But he, before this, he's, he's getting two different stories. He had gotten a completely different story of what actually happened from the bishop. That is very, very likely what happened. And it's only when he's starting to talking to us in person that he's realizing that that's not what happened. And then it becomes damage control.

John Dehlin [05:01:44] And so, yeah, yeah, okay, let's keep it going.

Douglas [05:01:51] People who live together. And then they said they're working on, you know, coming back to the temple and they don't get that. But we don't even get asked that before we get a letter. So Bishop told me actually to us in the council, like, hey, well, we usually for people who we know are sinning, we would come and we would talk and then we'll get a letter, you know, where they're at, to see if they want to repent. But we just get this is not the same treatment because we just get a membership council.

Douglas [05:02:24] Actually pause you there.

Gerardo Sumano [05:02:25] I think that you're again, you're feeling

Douglas [05:02:27] persecuted, but I don't think it's really working out quite the way that you're perceiving it. When, when I first heard hearsay, when I first heard that Brendan was, you know, it was probably, I don't remember was it two or three years ago he came into my office, we talked and I said, I heard that previously you had had issues with same gender attraction. And your answer was, I don't have issues with it. I fully embraced it.

Brennen [05:02:56] Right, right.

Douglas [05:02:57] So when you say, you know, normally you would call and sit down and talk with someone. We actually did sit down and we talked about it. At the end of that I said, you know, you would still be welcome to attend sacrament meeting. I don't know if you remember me saying that. And you said, yeah, I don't think

Guest [05:03:09] we're going to be attending.

Brennen [05:03:10] Yeah. And I think I said something along the line because I knew at that point that my intention was to be married to a man and that's what I was pursuing.

Douglas [05:03:20] And so, but that has nothing to do with, I mean the marriage Membership council.

Brennen [05:03:25] I mean you, you, you told me that this membership council was in the works since last June.

Douglas [05:03:33] Yeah, I had a, just a quick comment. So what I was asking is that you didn't sit down with us and

Brennen [05:03:41] talk about our Brandon's to confirm the

Douglas [05:03:45] marriage and then his, his defense was. Oh, I actually did set down three years ago.

Brennen [05:03:52] Yeah, yeah.

Douglas [05:03:54] How does this apply? How is this him answering our question?

Brennen [05:03:57] Yeah, it's not.

Brennen [05:03:58] Yeah, I'm glad you asked it.

John Dehlin [05:04:02] It's just a lot of deflections. Just a lot of deflections.

Brennen [05:04:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:04:06] Okay, let's keep it going.

Gerardo Sumano [05:04:10] Sorry we could not meet last week. I was taking care of a bit of a challenging situation.

Brennen [05:04:15] No problem.

Gerardo Sumano [05:04:16] But we really appreciate you guys coming down. Why don't we start with a prayer Bishop, you mind figure out.

Douglas [05:04:26] I found out that you were living in a different ward and that's when I contacted the, the bishop to see if we need to push your records there. That bishop did not.

Brennen [05:04:32] Were you able to figure out.

Douglas [05:04:36] No, it kind of doesn't matter because

Brennen [05:04:38] they, because I knew at that point that there we go. My intention was to be married to a man and that's what I was pursuing.

Douglas [05:04:46] And so, but that has nothing to do with, I mean the marriage membership council.

Brennen [05:04:51] I mean you, you, you told me that the, that this membership council council was in the works since last June.

Douglas [05:04:58] So I, I heard. Again, I don't, I don't deal in hearsay.

Brennen [05:05:01] Right.

Douglas [05:05:01] So if there's a question I will, I will ask you directly.

Brennen [05:05:04] Right. So I heard that you council in the works since last June.

Douglas [05:05:09] So it was, it was about last June that I heard that you were in a relationship, one that would not, you know, in a same gender relationship. And doing that, that I found out that you were living in a different ward. And that's when I contacted the bishop to see if we need to push your records there. That bishop did not.

Brennen [05:05:28] Were you able to figure out which bishop it was?

Guest [05:05:32] No.

Douglas [05:05:32] It kind of doesn't matter because they didn't accept your records. Your records stayed here with us.

Brennen [05:05:36] Right. It, it, it does matter though, because in order to hold the council, there has to be that coordination. And something that we notice going into it is that you, you only got Our address on May 3rd of this last month. And so there would have been no way for you to contact our bishop or to even find out where we're living at some point.

Douglas [05:06:00] I'm gonna hit the pause button right there. I actually talked to bishops all the time. I really don't remember which bishop it was.

Guest [05:06:05] We.

Douglas [05:06:05] I did have.

Brennen [05:06:06] He's talking to every bishop and every stake, and that's how he found.

Brennen [05:06:10] I'd love to know what bishop it was. It was okay.

Douglas [05:06:13] Are you asking. Why are you asking that?

Kyle Ashworth [05:06:16] Because you're a liar.

Brennen [05:06:18] My main intention in coming here is I don't want, I don't want to have to walk away from this membership council believing that the church is persecuting people and going after gay people. And if, if this truly, if this, if everything was truly followed by the members membership handbook and this wasn't as a personal vendetta. I know it's not a personal vendetta, but what I'm saying is that with contacting the other, the other bishops or stake president, that it was done correctly and with good intention.

Douglas [05:07:03] I think it's stated in that letter too, that, I mean, it feels like a witch hunt. That's why we're here to clarify because there's so many, like, conflicting thoughts when it's like it doesn't make sense. One for Bishop Wilding to know where Brennan lives, where his bishop are, and by the way, we contact all the bishops and none of them and the sick president and none of them seems to know anything about. I can probably go back to my

Douglas [05:07:28] records and find out who it was

Brennen [05:07:30] and it didn't matter. Yeah, but I mean, that's kind of.

Douglas [05:07:32] But if you're asking do I follow the headbook, absolutely yes. I spoke with that bishop. They contacted their state president, I spoke about it and they said because I already have a relationship with you, we would just keep your records here. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [05:07:47] What is. What is the outcome that the two

Douglas [05:07:50] of you are looking for?

Douglas [05:07:52] My hoping to make sure that everything just kind of like not conflicting. And I just want an explanation that are not this feel like gaslighting. There's a lot of happening here. I was like, oh, so this has happened here, but the timeline doesn't make any sense. Or like for example, when you said that there shouldn't be a membership council held for same sex marriage. That was the word.

Brennen [05:08:16] Same sex marriage in and of itself is not a reason to hold a membership council.

Douglas [05:08:19] But now you're saying it is.

Gerardo Sumano [05:08:21] No, it's. It has to do with it.

Brennen [05:08:22] It.

Guest [05:08:22] It's.

Gerardo Sumano [05:08:23] It's an idea of sin. The question is, is what? When we try to determine a membership council, we're trying to determine what would allow the individual the opportunity to come back to the Savior. So I think the interesting thing is we might all disagree how we all got pause pause.

Brennen [05:08:37] I just. They keep saying that I just got

Gerardo Sumano [05:08:39] up deliberate the fact that you're even here. Is there something about.

Brennen [05:08:42] They say the intention of a membership council is to see if there's anything that will bring. Bring that will give a person the opportunity to come back to the fold, to come back to church. If that was truly the. The intention and the want for this, there would have been some kind of contact to us to bring us back to church, to figure out why we are inactive. But there was. There was never.

John Dehlin [05:09:06] I guess that could have happened during the disciplinary council. They could have asked you hey, is there anything we can do? And the weird thing is what the. The only. The only only possible thing that. That could. That could be an outcome that would avoid a disciplinary council would be them holding the disciplinary council. Them saying to you, is there anything we can get you back on the path? What's the only answer that would then keep you from getting your getting excommunicated? Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [05:09:36] You know, divorce, separate that marriage.

John Dehlin [05:09:38] Right.

Brennen [05:09:38] Divorce and coming back to church.

Brennen [05:09:39] Right.

John Dehlin [05:09:40] So I mean, I guess that. Is that what he's saying that. Okay, yes. We didn't talk to you beforehand. We called the disciplinary council, but it wasn't to excommunicate you. It first was to find out if you would just choose to get divorced of your own free will and choice. And if that were the case, then there never would have been excommunication.

Discussing Apostasy, Beliefs, and Membership Withdrawal

Kyle Ashworth [05:09:59] And it's doubly problematic when you start saying what's going to bring. We need to figure out ways of bringing you closer to the Savior by excommunicating. That will bring you closer to the Savior by kicking you out of the fold. Thank you.

Brennen [05:10:11] Bringing you to a disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [05:10:13] Why are you shaking your head?

Gerardo Sumano [05:10:14] That's not what, that's. I think that's what the point that they're making over and over and over again. I think, John, you're falling a little bit for it with what the state president and bishop are saying.

John Dehlin [05:10:24] Well, I'm just following the lines of his logic now, but go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [05:10:27] But the membership councils are not, are not to bring people. Oh, how can we bring you back to church?

John Dehlin [05:10:33] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [05:10:34] Membership councils are done when there's a, like knowing that someone is sinning and we're bringing you in to discipline you. That's why they were called disciplinary.

John Dehlin [05:10:43] After you, after you engage with them as their pastoral leader and warned them or worked with them. Which he said he did a couple years ago.

Brennen [05:10:51] Right, right.

Guest [05:10:52] And.

Brennen [05:10:52] And he even said on the phone that when you're doing something that's odd, that's at odds with the church, that's

Gerardo Sumano [05:10:58] when we bring you in for a membership council.

Brennen [05:11:00] Exactly. That's what he said.

John Dehlin [05:11:02] Yeah.

Brennen [05:11:02] That's the purpose of it.

John Dehlin [05:11:03] Well, why didn't they bring you back? Why didn't they bring you to a membership council two years ago when they knew you were living in sin and when you said that you were happy with, with your lifestyle, why didn't they call a disciplinary council?

Brennen [05:11:14] That's me.

Kyle Ashworth [05:11:15] I almost want to say props to the bishop who didn't accept your records if indeed that bishop really exists. Because he probably didn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. He was. So, so maybe we have some affirmation farming bishop out there who looked at this and said, no, I'm not even getting in the middle of this. If you're hell bent on excommunicating this, this person that lives in my boundaries now and, and he may be recognized. This is a witch hunt as well.

Gerardo Sumano [05:11:40] So.

Kyle Ashworth [05:11:40] So hats off to that bishop who didn't want anything to do with it, wouldn't accept your records at that point they should have just, I mean really just sent him off into the unknowns. But to me that just shows and continues to prove that this bishop had a personal vendetta and wanted to come after you.

John Dehlin [05:11:56] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [05:11:56] Because there are many other options for this bishop to, to deal with your records. But he took it upon himself to make sure that you were punished, that you were disciplined because he knew about you and.

Gerardo Sumano [05:12:05] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [05:12:05] And even though he didn't have jurisdiction over you, he wanted you to feel his wrath and his, his authority.

Brennen [05:12:10] Right.

Douglas [05:12:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [05:12:12] All right, thanks for that clarification. Let's keep it going.

Gerardo Sumano [05:12:20] Of the church that you deeply believe in. And you're frustrated about this because. I think in all honesty, I'm thrilled that you're here. I'm thrilled that you called me because this gives us an opportunity to dialogue through these things. You know, I, I did really appreciate Brandon on the phone.

Douglas [05:12:33] He said, you know, president.

Gerardo Sumano [05:12:33] I probably did make a few comments, maybe social media otherwise, about the church. You know what I mean?

Brennen [05:12:38] I did not.

Brennen [05:12:38] I did not.

Gerardo Sumano [05:12:39] Oh, I thought you said that on the phone.

Brennen [05:12:40] No, and that's something that was confusing to me is because I was called for same sex marriage conduct. And I mentioned that when I first. At the beginning of the call when I called you. But then you ask a lot of questions regarding. I didn't realize until after the fact. But apostasy. If I had, because I looked in the handbook and apostasy is very clearly defined. Exactly what it is and what would qualify as apostasy. But I wasn't called for being an apostle apostate. And to this point I never made any. Anything that would constant. I've never taken any actions or said anything that would constitute as apostasy. And so I was, I was kind of confused when, when you were asking me about that because it wasn't, it wasn't first. I mean it wasn't for apostasy. It was for same sex marriage.

Brennen [05:13:29] So I guess.

Gerardo Sumano [05:13:30] So you said anything about the church?

Brennen [05:13:32] Not publicly, no.

Gerardo Sumano [05:13:33] Nothing.

Douglas [05:13:34] Not on any public forum.

Gerardo Sumano [05:13:35] But too many friends to other people that would have been talking outside.

Douglas [05:13:38] I mean everyone does that. Like, but it's not kind of apostasy like in the handbook it says in a public forum.

Brennen [05:13:44] In a public.

Brennen [05:13:45] Yeah, forum to where I'd be able

Gerardo Sumano [05:13:47] to, you know, what are you, what's the outcome you're both after. Do you want to be members of the church?

Douglas [05:13:52] Well, it's not membership right now, I don't think is like what is the outcome we want, it's mostly we want to be clarified. We want to be justified.

Brennen [05:14:02] We feel like we're here in response to being called to a membership council for my same sex marriage conduct.

Douglas [05:14:09] We feel discredited.

Kyle Ashworth [05:14:11] We feel like it's a witch hunt.

Gerardo Sumano [05:14:13] We came out of our way to hurt you guys.

Douglas [05:14:15] Basically we're living our own lives and you know, like with his membership because he's, I think he mentioned it with Bishop that he at one point is thinking about figuring out and resigning.

Brennen [05:14:27] On the original call, when we were talking, I mean, I had mentioned to you that eventually I, I, I was planning on eventually removing my records. I just hadn't made a point of it and I just.

Gerardo Sumano [05:14:40] Why would you, why would you remove your records?

Brennen [05:14:42] Why would I remove my records?

Gerardo Sumano [05:14:44] Yeah, why were you going to remove your records?

Brennen [05:14:45] Out of curiosity. I, that's not the topic that we're talking about.

Douglas [05:14:49] No, no, no.

Gerardo Sumano [05:14:50] I'm just trying to get insight into how you're thinking. So were you going to remove your records because you say I don't believe the Church is true, or do you remove your records because you feel like the Church has been unfair in its treatment of others?

Brennen [05:15:00] Whatever my reasoning may have been, I, I have, I didn't come to the Church of my own volition to remove my records. If I were coming to you to remove my records, I would give my reasons willingly because that's part, kind of part of the process and then, you know, I'd be in some, instructed upon what that means when I have my records removed and that kind of thing. But I didn't come to the Church, I didn't come to the Bishop, didn't come to you to get my records removed, to resign. And I would give you my reasons if that's what I was doing right now.

Brennen [05:15:33] But I was called to the membership council for my conduct related to same sex marriage. And so I don't think my beliefs currently in the Church are, are applicable because I was never coming to resign or to remove my records. I was approached first. And so that's what we're, that's what we're here doing is responding to being sought out for the council, not because I wanted to remove my records on my own time.

Douglas [05:16:03] So, Brendan.

John Dehlin [05:16:04] Yeah, just to clarify, this is really clear to me now. You're saying we want to know one thing.

Gerardo Sumano [05:16:11] Thing.

John Dehlin [05:16:11] Did you come after us as a witch hunt to excommunicate us for being same sex married? That's all you want to know?

Brennen [05:16:17] Yeah.

Douglas [05:16:17] Right.

John Dehlin [05:16:18] And they, and then they say, what is your intention? Do you want to stay a member?

Brennen [05:16:22] And we tell them multiple times, we want to know if you guys have been persecuting us and if you can answer our questions straight, then that will help us know.

John Dehlin [05:16:32] And then they'll say, well, have you ever said a bad thing about the church? Do you still believe in the church? Church? And they're trying to divert. Because what they don't want to do is simply just look you in the eye, possibly while you're being recorded, while they're being recorded and just say, yes, we came after you because you're same sex married and that's why we're excommunicating you. That's what you want them to say. Yeah, that's clearly why they called you to the disciplinary council. But they don't want to admit it.

Kyle Ashworth [05:16:59] But it's clearly the exact same thing that they're also trying to avoid.

Guest [05:17:02] Void.

Kyle Ashworth [05:17:02] They absolutely don't want to wade in those waters at all. They know there's that shark infested by their own volition.

Guest [05:17:10] They're.

Kyle Ashworth [05:17:10] They're the ones that planted the sharks in the water. And if they start waiting in that water, they know there will be blood.

John Dehlin [05:17:15] Because the church, publicly, the church loves gay people. The church loves more, you know, the LGBTQ community. We fight for the rights of LGBTQ people. So surely we don't engage in LGBTQ witch hunts to excommunicate and purge same sex married LGBTQ people from our.

Kyle Ashworth [05:17:34] Even though it looks like it, and even though you have five phone calls

John Dehlin [05:17:37] prior to this, even though Kyle knows of nine that happened eight or nine

Kyle Ashworth [05:17:40] that happened during COVID But that's not what, that's not what it looks like

John Dehlin [05:17:45] what we're actually doing.

Brennen [05:17:46] If, if they were willing to admit that to us and to tell us that, yes, this was wrong, this was

John Dehlin [05:17:53] a mistake, or we, yes, this is what we're doing. Yes, for getting same sex marriage.

Brennen [05:17:58] If they had admitted that, then we wouldn't be having this podcast. I wouldn't, I wouldn't feel the need to do, to have this podcast if they had just come clean about everything.

Kyle Ashworth [05:18:09] Yeah, it's a great.

Brennen [05:18:10] And I, I didn't real. I didn't really realize how much they were trying to deflect off of the topic at hand until, like, until this moment in, in, in the conversation. Like, it all, like, it all finally hit me of like, okay, apostasy, word of wisdom. What are your beliefs in the church? They're trying to find every avenue to get to, to shy away from the fact that they called me to a disciplinary membership council on the basis of same sex marriage conduct. Anything they can do to move it

John Dehlin [05:18:46] away from that so they don't have to admit it.

Brennen [05:18:48] So they don't have to admit it. And that's. And I say it, and we've heard it so many times before. I'm saying it over and over again. I was called to this council because of my same sex marriage conduct.

Kyle Ashworth [05:18:58] And they're bringing up the same excuses over and over and over. It's, it's exactly word of wisdom issue.

Brennen [05:19:02] It's.

Kyle Ashworth [05:19:02] You didn't want to be here in the beginning. It's your own fault.

Brennen [05:19:05] It's perfect dodging. And yeah, it's deflection.

Kyle Ashworth [05:19:09] It's deflection and gaslighting because yeah, this clearly was your problem. You're the one that can. You, you were the one that's not strong enough, Brennan, if you were just strong enough.

Brennen [05:19:17] My knuckles were not bleeding yet.

Kyle Ashworth [05:19:18] That's it. That's it.

John Dehlin [05:19:19] All right, so we got 50 more minutes. Let's see if you can get them.

Brennen [05:19:23] All right, we can do it.

John Dehlin [05:19:24] Get them to admit what's obvious.

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [05:19:28] And in our council when we talk you actually, we got to a point where you said I was planning on removing my records. I asked you is that what you want to do? You remember that?

Video Clip 9 [05:19:37] Yes.

Video Clip 9 [05:19:38] And that was one of those viral well, do I remove my records or do I get excommunicated?

Video Clip 9 [05:19:44] Right. You kind of presented this twofold decision, you know, would, you said, would we like to. Would you like to move forward with the council or would you like to remove your records? Assumingly on my own time and in the formal process. And I remember telling you that I would rather move forward with the council because that's what I was called for, that's what I came here to do. And even according to the handbook, it's, you're, you're not supposed to recommend or even, you know, prevent or like present in an option of you can go, you know, resign and remove your records on your own time. That's something that like that shouldn't be done about. But a bishop should not recommend that.

Video Clip 9 [05:20:34] I asked you what you wanted to

Video Clip 9 [05:20:36] do by giving the option.

Video Clip 9 [05:20:37] Okay, here's the conflicting thing, is that when you say what hap. The outcome of the council would be these three things like membership withdrawal. Like you didn't say what that entailed.

Video Clip 9 [05:20:47] Formal restrictions.

Video Clip 9 [05:20:48] Yeah, you don't say what those restriction means. You say, oh, membership withdrawals means that it's kind of the same thing as you. You basically, we remove your record from the church, which does sounds like that, but I don't think that's what it says in the handbook because being resigning from the church is very different than being can you finish this.

Video Clip 9 [05:21:09] Yeah.

Video Clip 9 [05:21:11] Than being a membership, having like a membership withdrawal. Because if we resign, if we want to go take a sacrament, we're welcome to take a sacrament versus membership withdrawal. You don't take the sacrament. Am I correct on that?

Video Clip 9 [05:21:25] Well, yeah.

Video Clip 9 [05:21:26] The interesting thing is in both situations, you're essentially considered a non member in both. So in all honesty, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Video Clip 9 [05:21:34] It does. If we want to come back to

Video Clip 9 [05:21:36] church because of the process in order to becoming a member again, it's very different. You have to hold a council in order to regain.

Video Clip 9 [05:21:44] We're not inform. Have your.

Video Clip 9 [05:21:47] I agree that both of them require re baptism, first presidency approval and all those things. A membership withdrawal and resignation. We just had somebody that resigned their membership with the church five years ago and we just put them back in the church a couple of. Maybe a year ago. And it was a process to go through the entire first presidency to get approval to have the person that resigned their membership to be able to get baptismal approval.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:08] Right. But the fact of it is that they are different. And if they weren't different, they wouldn't be different outcomes. If they were, if they were this. If they really are essentially the same and it doesn't matter and it's not different and they would be the same outcome.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:22] No, no, there's a difference between the two. No, there definitely is.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:25] Right.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:25] We're just not informed in the council, which I think that's Bishop Zhao. I'm not saying that this is. He might missed it for something, but it just seems like this council was taken super lightly. It doesn't seem like like it was.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:39] I wasn't aware of what was. What the outcome meant of withdrawal of membership until after the fact. I read it in the handbook and then, you know, said that the bishop will explain that these are the. This is what a withdrawal of membership means. So that then you feel like.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:54] We didn't explain that.

Video Clip 9 [05:22:55] It wasn't explained at all. Membership. You said we were recommending a withdrawal membership, but that was it. There was no explanation of what that meant. And I didn't really know the difference between the two until I actually went and read it.

Video Clip 9 [05:23:10] So when we talked about it, Brendan, you were saying, isn't that the same as excommunication?

Video Clip 9 [05:23:15] Right.

Video Clip 9 [05:23:15] You remember asking that in the meeting?

Video Clip 9 [05:23:17] Yeah, because traditionally.

Video Clip 9 [05:23:18] But then you also say, oh, we don't use that word anymore because we don't apply the same restriction as excommunication anymore. So now membership withdrawal, you said that. Oh, it's Mean, we only take out the record.

Video Clip 9 [05:23:32] Like, that's.

Video Clip 9 [05:23:32] We don't really have any, like, research.

Video Clip 9 [05:23:37] Actually, what we were talking about, as you said, is it the same thing as excommunication? I said, that's the. That is, you know, a word that was previously used. We don't use that term anymore sometimes in other churches. Excommunication had other implications as I was a withdrawal of membership. The thing that was. Again, I'm still surprised by this whole thing. And I told you this during our membership council, I get this sense of. Of anger towards the church. And it's not just with this. It's so in. In the conversations that we had. So the one we had again two or three years ago, whenever that was, I was.

Brennen [05:24:19] Okay, pause before he goes on a ramble again, because he's gonna. He's gonna go for a couple minutes.

Douglas [05:24:27] Oh.

Brennen [05:24:29] So here he's trying to paint this. You know, he says, we can tell that you're very angry with the church. The majority of our anger and frustration to where we feel persecuted is not coming from the church. It's. It's coming from them, and it's coming from the inconsistencies and the confusion and the lack of admittance to them doing this horrible thing. And. And so, like, he's.

Gerardo Sumano [05:24:56] He.

Brennen [05:24:57] For throughout the rest of this conversation, they're going to try to characterize our hostility as, oh, it's not us. That is like, they're even trying to make themselves seem like it's. It's not. We're not causing this. You're just angry at the church, which is not the case. It's. It's all the interactions. And the reason why we came to that meeting was to clarify everything. Isn't that so?

Douglas [05:25:16] Yeah, I think that helps them to say that, oh, you're. You're being hostile towards your church, saying that over making it as seems that we are targeting the church.

Gerardo Sumano [05:25:24] Yeah.

Douglas [05:25:25] And that can.

Brennen [05:25:25] And that in and of itself is apostasy, which. No, that's not what it was about at all. So continue.

John Dehlin [05:25:35] All right.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [05:25:38] I heard that you had some comments and. And maybe there was nothing on any public forum that you were opposed to the church and specifically angry about the way people of the LGBTQ community have

Video Clip 10 [05:25:49] been treated by the church.

Video Clip 10 [05:25:51] When we had our membership council and you read through your letter, you're kind of going after President Oaks, President Nelson, President Kimball, and that's one where I completely respect your ability to be a gay person.

Video Clip 10 [05:26:09] Right.

Video Clip 10 [05:26:10] I respect your ability to be gay and married. That is 100% your choice. I even respect your ability to be angry with the church. Right. That's part of the free speech that happens in America in saying that you can't necessarily do both and maintain good standing in the church. As a bishop. If I were to be critical of President Nelson and President Oaks and, and President Kimball, I imagine that I would be called in to meet with and depending on kind of the circumstances of everything, there is a good possibility. So I can be excommunicated just the same as anybody else can.

Video Clip 10 [05:26:50] Right.

Video Clip 10 [05:26:50] I can have my membership withdrawn.

Douglas [05:26:52] But not. That's not the case with Brennan because that's not apostasy. Even if he said to you directly that he disagrees. Grief. This is not. He's not defaming the church because you explained a little bit of deposit in the phone call saying that if you trying to defame the church, make the church image looks bad publicly. We're just trying to express the reason why it's so confusing. It's always been confusing with church leaders, you know, with the prophets and even with the membership council and we're talking to both you. That's why we're here. It's like it's always been like this. Why can't you just admit that you made a mistake?

Douglas [05:27:28] You know, why didn't you admit that you know, this whole thing has been kind of mistake, but you, you kind of just kind of say like, because, because you said it's because the same sex marriage and you said it should not happen just based on same sex marriage. Is that correct?

Guest [05:27:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [05:27:42] When it comes to same sex marriage, you would treat it the exact same way you would treat heterosexual sin. It's exactly the same. So it doesn't mean that you wouldn't have a membership council. You could easily have that in the exact same. It depends on what happens in that disciplinary council is what we used to call now membership council. So if we have a man just, just for a moment, if you have a man and a woman and they're married and this gentleman goes out and

Brennen [05:28:05] steps out on his wife, we're gonna start cycling back through things. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [05:28:08] They're not even temple going. They're members of the church. Okay. Man steps out. We would discuss that between me and the bishop. And that individual would be brought into a bishop's council, potentially a state council. And that meeting would be held based on the fact that, hey, there's a covenant relationship here. You cannot do this, you cannot step outside your marriage. And that's one of the ways that

Douglas [05:28:29] we would do that the same would be true.

Gerardo Sumano [05:28:31] It would be exactly the same. You feel like the homosexual sin is weighted heavier in the church than heterosexual sin. I think is what you're referring.

Kyle Ashworth [05:28:38] Right, that's true.

Douglas [05:28:40] But this is not what we're talking about though.

Brennen [05:28:42] What about my situation was such that it would call membership council if it is truly treated equally. And you said that a same sex marriage in and of itself is not a reason to hold a membership council. Why would the membership council have been conducted or approved? What else about my situation would have made you feel I don't approve of the council?

Gerardo Sumano [05:29:06] Would be. If it would be approved, it would be because of your position as it relates to the church, your thoughts and feelings and expressions towards the church. Whether that you say public and we can parse words on public.

Douglas [05:29:17] I think that it's very clear in the handbook to say what public apostasy means when it comes to position against the church. Because you can privately disagree and you can still pray, but you don't get a membership council. We just express it direct to you as leader of a church. We don't say it like, like go out in the street and hold signs and tell everyone to leave the church. We're just quietly living our lives. And only because you asked for it. We say what we think, but that has nothing to do with what it stated in the church handbook. And we don't like before this point there's, there's more of a neutral stands with the church because Brendan's family is still very active.

Gerardo Sumano [05:30:04] Is your family active?

Douglas [05:30:05] No, my family is not a member of the church. Okay, so. So I don't really care like you know, like, but like I'm just feeling again living our own life and feeling like all of a sudden get ambushed by these two men with a letter to call to this council. And so I think that kind of brought of like oh okay, like might as well go because they go all the way out of their state boundary to call for us. Might as well, you know, be stay

Brennen [05:30:33] our mind going through all the steps.

Douglas [05:30:35] But this does not constitute a posse enough according to my understanding. If you can clarify my understanding to held a membership to, to be, you know, like deem as apostasy apostate and then you know to be, you know, having a membership withdrawal. Because these are just explaining why we think same sex marriage should not be a thing to be persecuted. Like that old letter is like why are you persecuting us when the prophet disagreeing on what you should, how you should treat same Sex people.

Gerardo Sumano [05:31:10] So you, you would both say that you support the first presidency of the church.

Douglas [05:31:14] I wouldn't say that. Now look, how, which, which one. The thing is, which one am I supporting? Because one say this thing and the other say completely opposite thing. So like, we support something they say for sure. But like, which one? At which time, by the way, because some, like, at certain time, this president would say one thing.

Brennen [05:31:31] At the different time, this president will

Douglas [05:31:32] say a different thing.

Brennen [05:31:33] Or even 10 years later, the same person will say a different thing.

Douglas [05:31:37] So like, when you say support a person, like, at what time, at what point in time we supporting this person? Because I definitely still support some of their saying, like I still subscribe to their, like Instagram and stuff. Sometimes they say amazing things and then like two weeks later to say really, really upsetting things.

Gerardo Sumano [05:31:57] So is the most upsetting things they say all centered on the LGBT community

Douglas [05:32:01] a lot, very heavily on lgbt.

Brennen [05:32:05] And I said the majority of them. And that's kind of what I was compiling. There is just a history of kind of the, the contradictions that the church made regarding the teachings of topics of LGBTQ basis. So, yeah, what.

John Dehlin [05:32:23] So if I can, if I can recap what I'm hearing, he starts out by saying there's no difference between a heterosexual couple who are having sex outside of marriage and a same sex couple having sex even if they're married outside of legitimate heterosexual marriage. They're both equal and they're both sins and they're both susceptible to disciplinary councils. And then your response is, yes, but you're not enforcing the law equally. You're basically letting all those people alone and you're hunting after us. And then, then. And so then instead of just saying yes, then they're saying, but wait, once we called you to a disciplinary council, you said this, that, or the other thing about your beliefs, and that's what, that's why we're holding a disciplinary council. And then your response is, but wait, that's not apostasy for us.

Brennen [05:33:25] We.

John Dehlin [05:33:25] When you, when we're asked to answer your questions in a private meeting about what our beliefs are or aren't, and there's a side note to that because also then they're saying, but wait, you criticize the Lord's anointed by saying you didn't, you didn't like what past prophets or revelators have said. And I'm going to say I'm calling BS on that one because that's not what you did. What you did was simply read their awful, horrific statements. Show the show how horrific they were and show that they contradicted each other and you never actually weighed in. And then they're gonna just, like, now I'm sure he's gonna ask some new question that's taking it in a totally different direction. And it's clear that they're hunting for a reason because they don't want to just flat out say, we came after you because you got same sex married.

Kyle Ashworth [05:34:21] And is anybody else confused about the way they're justifying this homosexual relationship and heterosexual relationships will be treated the same way. They flat out come out and say the reason why you are in this council is because of your homosexual relationship. It's like the heterosexuals who cheat on each other, who go outside the bonds of marriage.

Douglas [05:34:38] Yeah.

Brennen [05:34:39] That's not our situation.

John Dehlin [05:34:41] So it's infidelity. It's infidelity. We're trying to equate it with them. It's like the alcohol. It's like coffee, tea, drug addiction, infidelity. They're awful bad analogies. Right.

Guest [05:34:53] And.

Kyle Ashworth [05:34:54] And I'm just waiting for them to start pushing, saying, okay, Brandon, when was the last time you cheated on your husband? When. That's the reason.

Brennen [05:35:00] Because we know the.

Kyle Ashworth [05:35:01] This makes no sense.

Brennen [05:35:02] I know they're trying to bring another topic. It's exactly shy away from.

Kyle Ashworth [05:35:07] And treating these two homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships in the same way is not comparing an apple to a Volkswagen. That's what they're doing. They're saying, your legal lawful marriage is just like the heterosexual couple who cheats.

Brennen [05:35:22] Cheating on each other.

Kyle Ashworth [05:35:23] Who cheats on each other. Don't you see that?

John Dehlin [05:35:25] It's worse.

Kyle Ashworth [05:35:26] You are an idiot for not seeing that. Because we see it clearly.

Douglas [05:35:28] Well, it makes no sense.

John Dehlin [05:35:30] They're trying to. They're. They're using two different ones. They're talking about. They're talking about single heterosexuals having sex, and they're also talking about infidelity. It's because he's interchanging those at different times.

Brennen [05:35:43] Exactly.

Kyle Ashworth [05:35:44] And I think, let's be honest, the churches, these two particular leaders, for example, are not understanding that you. Or not willing to acknowledge that your marriage is legal. They're doing everything in their power to prove to you and to themselves that your marriage is invalid. What did. What was it Perry or Packer or one of them? It said counterfeit marriage. That's what you have. You have a counterfeit marriage. And we cannot believe for a moment that it is. It's a valid marriage. Therefore, you have to be bundled in the same group of of people who, who swing, who cheat, who are non monogamous, who are polyamorous, who are polygamous daily or whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [05:36:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [05:36:22] Not that, you know, just throwing the answer to anyone.

Guest [05:36:24] Yep.

Kyle Ashworth [05:36:24] Exactly Right, brother.

John Dehlin [05:36:25] We can say something. Yeah.

Guest [05:36:27] I think.

Gerardo Sumano [05:36:28] And we're missing the biggest point, which is that the stage stake president has told them that same sex marriage in and of itself is not a reason to hold.

John Dehlin [05:36:36] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [05:36:37] Council. He said that multiple, multiple times during the previous phone call.

Brennen [05:36:42] And the only reason why he's trying to pursue this is because he thinks that we're apostizing.

Douglas [05:36:47] Right.

Brennen [05:36:48] That's it. Because he's, because the bishop has convinced him that I didn't just do it on safe sex marriage. He's, you know, he's handling that part. Part of it. And he's like, I'm doing it also because they're apostasizing. That's why. And so, and so like it's fitting, it's fitting his narrative still.

Gerardo Sumano [05:37:05] Because you asked him, you asked him and probably we, I mean, we played it in the recording. You asked him, didn't you say that same sex marriage in and of itself is not a reason to hold a dispute counsel? And he says yes. And he says, so why would be the reason for us to be called? And he's like, well, it would be because of your feelings and, and your thoughts and the things you said about the church. But that's. And, and then it goes back to what you were saying.

Brennen [05:37:28] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [05:37:29] That's not the reason. That's not the reason why I was called.

Brennen [05:37:31] Exactly.

Douglas [05:37:32] They're just trying to juggle in their mind like what is making sense.

Douglas [05:37:36] Yeah.

Brennen [05:37:36] And just any reason that they can feel justified in doing this.

John Dehlin [05:37:40] Yeah.

Brennen [05:37:40] So.

John Dehlin [05:37:42] All right, let's see what they have next.

Gerardo Sumano [05:37:46] What are you guys wanting to do do here?

John Dehlin [05:37:48] I mean, I really, I mean, is that literally like the 12th time? Is that not the 12th time you've been asked?

Brennen [05:37:55] Round four?

Douglas [05:37:55] Round four.

John Dehlin [05:37:56] I'm serious. Like, I feel like we're playing the

Brennen [05:37:58] same clip over and we tell him

John Dehlin [05:38:00] every single time I look at the time code. Like, wait, am I, did I actually replay. And I'm not replaying. They're literally, They've asked that question like eight times.

Brennen [05:38:10] I, they're not taking our answer.

Kyle Ashworth [05:38:12] I think for the record, we should. It was John that said, we're just going to play this through.

Douglas [05:38:15] We're not going to stop.

Kyle Ashworth [05:38:16] And he's the one who continues to stop.

John Dehlin [05:38:18] Well, you guys vetoed that, so.

Brennen [05:38:20] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [05:38:22] I'm following Your lead. Gosh darn it.

Gerardo Sumano [05:38:24] Love it.

John Dehlin [05:38:24] Okay, keep out. He keeps. He keeps going back there. So I wonder how this is going to be different.

▶ Video Clip 11

Video Clip 11 [05:38:31] I don't know if I believe in divine design.

Video Clip 11 [05:38:32] I do.

Video Clip 11 [05:38:33] I believe there's a reason we're sitting in this room together. I believe there's a reason that you called and you're sitting here. So. Because the outcome you're wanting, I know you feel strongly that you we persecuted. So I want you to know a couple things I'm going to do this week is I have not read this letter. I will read this letter cover to cover, and I will send this tomorrow morning, the First Presidency, and say, hey, had a chance to meet them. I'll put a cover letter over the top of Bishop and I and just say, I just want you to know we had this discussion and there was feelings, strong feelings that we hunted them down.

Video Clip 11 [05:38:59] You know what I mean?

Video Clip 11 [05:39:00] A witch hunter. I'll use the term you used. I don't want to put words in your mouth. And I'll send that on the first. First Presidency. I'll do that by the time I hit the pillow tomorrow night, because then the First Presidency can weigh in, you thought I'm saying. And say, no, X, Y and Z are based on the letter, etc. Etc. I don't mind doing that if that's helpful to you guys. Well, what do you want? What are the outcomes you're asking?

Escalation to the First Presidency

Brennen [05:39:18] Pause, pause. So he's. This is the first time, get clarification and get.

John Dehlin [05:39:26] He's literally asking again what your objectives are.

Brennen [05:39:29] Exactly the same thing. But the. This is the first time that he's brought up the First Presidency. This is when he's like, okay, I'm pretty sure we haven't done anything wrong, so I'm going to send this to the First Presidency in hopes that they can get back to us and tell us what we've done wrong. That's basically what he's saying. He wants to send us out to person and get guidance is what he says.

Kyle Ashworth [05:39:51] And let's just reverse here for a second, because your membership withdrawal, your excommunication, is not even a fake official at this point. And so he wouldn't be sending this to the First Presidency for. For clarification or for an appeal because the. The stake president has not issued to you, in writing, a letter of your formal excommunication.

Brennen [05:40:09] Nothing's happened yet.

Kyle Ashworth [05:40:10] That's exactly right. So that's what makes me even more concerned. Like, why would he be sending anything to the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [05:40:16] So is he basically saying he's gonna. He's gonna decide that you should have your membership withdrawn and he's gonna, you know, leave it to the First Presidency to, you know, for the, for the appeal. Is he basically saying, I'm gonna. I'm gonna rule your apostates. I'm gonna rule that your membership should be dissolved and we'll just see.

Gerardo Sumano [05:40:35] Not really.

John Dehlin [05:40:36] If on appeal.

Gerardo Sumano [05:40:37] Not really. Because he said, he said also that he has. He hasn't read the statement. The bishop made him think that the statement that he read had things about other stuff about church history, about Book of Mormon, about other stuff.

Kyle Ashworth [05:40:51] So that's what the name of the church.

Gerardo Sumano [05:40:52] Yeah. And that' president is thinking. The reality is that the document doesn't contain any of those things. So what the stake president. And they said that. They said this document is just about LGBT issues. And that's when he goes and says, well, I haven't read it. So what I'm going to do is attach it tomorrow and send it to the state, to the First Presidency and tell us if this is basically apostasy or not.

Kyle Ashworth [05:41:16] Which we all know that doesn't happen because there's a line of authority, 100%. And so the stake president doesn't just appeal directly to the First Presidency. The stake president's responsibility is to then his area authority. That area authority goes to the presidency of the 70. And the 70 can take it up to the first presidency. Yeah, clearly I know this as a lay member of. Former lay member of the Church. And this stake president knows his chain of authority as well. I think this is just a ruse. This is something where he's saying, I am. I am behind you. I am going to fight for you. Even if I have to go right to the First Presidency, I'll do. And that's not happening.

John Dehlin [05:41:48] I should just say Maven in the show notes, let's add my recording of my interactions with my stake president and bishop because it. It's very REM Reminiscent of that for me. Also, Sam Pinson's in the chat. Sam Pinson and his family recorded their disciplinary council as well. This is all just the same old thing of these leaders not knowing what they're doing, trying to justify and deceive why they're making the decisions they're making. I just want to let you all know we have other examples so you know that this is not unique.

Brennen [05:42:20] Exactly. Also, shout out to Sam Pinson.

Guest [05:42:23] He.

Brennen [05:42:24] We went to college together and I've been talking to him about this. The Whole time. And he told me about his scenario. He was actually one of my students at Boise State because I taught a couple classes and.

John Dehlin [05:42:35] So is that the sun? The son. Okay.

Brennen [05:42:38] Yeah. I think the dad's former Bishop Pinson.

John Dehlin [05:42:41] Oh, okay. Okay.

Brennen [05:42:42] Yeah. And so anyway.

John Dehlin [05:42:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah, We've got other. We've got other examples. All right, let's keep going.

▶ Video Clip 12

Video Clip 12 [05:42:54] Answers to the questions that I sent you because of the contradictions that we've seen thus far since receiving the letter.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:05] Beyond the questions, though, I mean, like I'm saying, let's. Like I said, we put on the shelf. I mean, are you wanting to come to church?

Video Clip 12 [05:43:12] The outcome is just. We want to make sure we clarify an understanding of. It doesn't matter anything about the church.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:19] It's like if you wanted to know if I wanted to go to church or not, why was I not asked about that in the past four years? I wasn't. I was called for membership council because I was married to Doug.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:33] If you.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:33] If you really wanted to figure out where the course of action was from this meeting and if it was to go to church or to remove my records or whatever it may have been to see if I want to resign, then I. That I would have been approached about that. But I wasn't. I was.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:53] I was. Was sought out for that.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:55] The membership council. Not for a resignation.

Video Clip 12 [05:43:58] Not because I wanted to see.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:00] Because somebody wanted to see if I wanted to go back to church. The first contact that I've had in. In three years since we'd last talked was a membership council and a letter. And that's it.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:15] Do you think that's rooted fairly amongst, like. Because Bishop said, like, if someone's enacted. We would come and try to visit them.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:22] We visit every inactive person in our world.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:25] Not Brendan first. Right.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:30] Challenge, too. Here you have a Bishop that reached out to another Bishop. Your records don't get in that war. You follow what I'm saying? Which casts a cave a lot of other things. Bishop, Maybe you feel differently. Brandon, you said it on the phone. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but how much you would appreciate. Bishop, you said a president. You. You had to set him up to come and get me. Because Bishop would have never done that on his own. I believe is kind of the words you used. President. You had to force him. Because Bishop knows and loves me. That's clearly not the case at all. Bishop can tell you that.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:57] It's.

Video Clip 12 [05:44:57] It's not. What?

Video Clip 12 [05:44:58] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely not a. Definitely not.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:02] I'm not sure if Forcing was a word.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:04] But.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:04] But originally when we had the membership council, I asked Bain because it didn't make sense in my mind that I was being called to the council out of nowhere.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:14] Like

Video Clip 12 [05:45:16] with our past relationship and it not being required to have a membership council for same sex marriage. It. It didn't make sense in my mind that he.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:26] What?

Video Clip 12 [05:45:26] That it was. That the membership was being called without some instruction being received. And so I asked him, did you receive some kind of instruction for this council to occur? Because it didn't make sense if it was coming from him. And that's why I called you. But then you told me that no instruction is ever given.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:44] We don't give.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:45] Like from a state perspective, Bishop and I would discuss all of those things. The bishop would bring something. We would prayerfully consider an outcome.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:52] Right.

Video Clip 12 [05:45:52] And it could be a state council, or it can be at a state level. Excuse me. Or it could be at a bishop's level. You follow what I'm saying? So, yeah, the idea of, hey, I've been going to bed for two years thinking, Brennan, I've got Brennan.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:02] Brendan Porter.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:03] I'm gonna find him, I'm gonna hunt him down. Nothing could be further from the truth. To be honest with Brendan, I don't think I've even seen you. I mean, you and I knew each other briefly, but I'm not like. We.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:13] I, I would.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:13] I would hope that that wasn't the

Video Clip 12 [05:46:15] intention, but if this has been in the works for a year now, maybe we're sleeping about it, you know, going to bed, thinking about it for a year's time.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:25] If you could just give us a

Video Clip 12 [05:46:26] small little carve out in that.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:28] That small little thing called covet has been a little bit challenging at a church level. I hope you appreciate as well.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:33] Yeah.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:33] Meeting, not meeting, changing, zoom. I mean, it's. That's been challenging. I'm not making an excuse, but.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:39] Right.

Video Clip 12 [05:46:39] You gotta appreciate I've got a whole. I got a whole email, I got a whole folder folding of letting people let me know what an idiot I am about mass and everything else. I can send those to you as well, if you'd like them.

Brennen [05:46:48] Right.

Douglas [05:46:49] Sorry. Can I. I had just coming back to what I asked.

John Dehlin [05:46:54] This.

Douglas [05:46:54] This is why all of this has been. We're coming back again and again for. This is because we still think it's very unfair that out of nowhere, I mean, he just said that he got sought out for a membership letter, you know, like straight out, without any prior contact. That just kind of stumped us a Little bit.

Douglas [05:47:11] Doug, can I. I'm gonna ask you two questions. First of all, I just noticed you're recording us. You probably recorded our first meeting too.

Douglas [05:47:17] Yes, exactly.

Douglas [05:47:18] I'm even asked after we had the conversation about recording.

Douglas [05:47:20] No, we, I, I recorded the council because that's why I want. Because when we keep thinking back, like, this doesn't make sense.

Guest [05:47:27] Sure.

Gerardo Sumano [05:47:27] That's just, that's a little bit disappointing.

Brennen [05:47:29] Honestly.

Brennen [05:47:29] Pause.

Gerardo Sumano [05:47:30] And honestly, in fairness to us, I think you would say that's okay though. I have no problems.

John Dehlin [05:47:36] All right, so that's busted. They found out

Brennen [05:47:40] we've been recording it.

John Dehlin [05:47:43] How they, how they see, okay, so

Douglas [05:47:44] the bishop situation, like next to Brendan and Brendan, sex next to me. And I was recording on my Apple watch. And so when I turn my wrist, it like turns on sometimes. And so like it sees that I

John Dehlin [05:47:54] saw the red, is like a little

Brennen [05:47:56] red button, you know, with the, the square, the red square. It's like, oh, currently, you know, going.

Douglas [05:48:02] But then I'm like, yeah, I'm recording. Like I'm owning up to it.

Brennen [05:48:05] Like, but that's like, you didn't even miss a beat. I was so proud of you.

John Dehlin [05:48:11] It's legal and it's your right and it's for self protection. And they have, they should have nothing to hide. The reason it's saying that they're disappointed in you. Like, why, if they're on the Lord's errand, what do they have to be ashamed of and, and disappointed about?

Brennen [05:48:27] And I was, and I was thinking this the whole time that, that they really think, after everything that we've been through, after all the conversations and I thought, like, all the gaslighting and hurt, hurtful things that have been done, that we are going to care what they think. Yeah, that we're going to care that they're disappointed or like, man, this is just so sad that you would do that. They, they really think in their right mind that, that, that, that we are caring about their feelings, about what we're doing because we're just trying to protect ourselves.

Kyle Ashworth [05:48:56] Well, and ultimately this, but this now becomes a protection of them. There's their character, their good name and all the things on their own. So now they're going to fold like a lawn chair. They're not going to want to interact or engage because they could now be held accountable.

Gerardo Sumano [05:49:10] Right?

Brennen [05:49:11] And we now they know they're being recorded.

Kyle Ashworth [05:49:13] We can't be held accountable. I mean, what if people found out about what we're talking about behind these closed doors? What, what could come of it.

John Dehlin [05:49:20] And that really is a tell for why they're not just owning up to excommunicating you for being same sex married.

Guest [05:49:26] Correct.

Brennen [05:49:27] Yeah, that.

John Dehlin [05:49:27] I mean, because they just, they're worried about the image and the, the disappointment in your recording is just more evidence that they just don't want the truth to be out there.

Kyle Ashworth [05:49:40] If you're surprised, are you, Is anyone here in this room surprised? Anyone on the chat surprised that the church is worried about their image over the actual person or.

John Dehlin [05:49:49] Yeah. Or the truth or allegiance to the truth.

Kyle Ashworth [05:49:52] I'm not seeing any hands raised.

John Dehlin [05:49:53] Yeah, chat, chat.

Kyle Ashworth [05:49:56] No, still not there either.

John Dehlin [05:49:57] All right, so now let's see how they engage you after they're disappointed with you.

Douglas [05:50:04] The second thing is.

Gerardo Sumano [05:50:05] Say that again. What'd you say?

Brennen [05:50:07] I said whatever your personal feelings may

Guest [05:50:10] be

Brennen [05:50:12] recording in the state of Idaho, it's a, it's a one party state

Douglas [05:50:17] where sure, it's legal.

Gerardo Sumano [05:50:20] Oh, no, nobody said it was illegal. I didn't say it was illegal.

Brennen [05:50:22] Right, right.

Douglas [05:50:23] I don't know why you disappointed, but I just have the experience many times where I feel gaslighted in these meetings.

Brennen [05:50:30] And a lot of the times you

Douglas [05:50:31] don't because sometimes you put in the hot seat and you feel like, oh, I'm receiving so much care. But in fact it's just like, like, oh, the thinking again, that does not make sense. Yeah, you know, so

Douglas [05:50:45] I told you that I don't really deal in hearsay. Right. So if I hear something, I will confirm it. When I heard that you were engaged in same gender, you know, attraction, the same gender relationships, that's when we met. And that was again, I don't remember how many years ago. But when we first talked, I bring you in and you tell me yourself,

Douglas [05:51:04] that's three years ago. That's not same sex marriage though.

Douglas [05:51:07] I, I understand that. What I'm telling you though is then later when I heard that you were in a same sex marriage and, and you had said some comments and again, I don't, I don't check those comments that were very pro same sex marriage and that you were against the church in some of these, I bring you in and what do you do?

John Dehlin [05:51:30] Wait, wait a minute. Foul. Foul.

Douglas [05:51:33] So now what did you say?

John Dehlin [05:51:36] First of all, he doesn't even remember what he looked at. But second of all, he's claiming that you criticize the church publicly.

Brennen [05:51:43] He is making.

John Dehlin [05:51:44] Publicly he should make it that making up like he just made up. And it's the, it's the whole basis for the claim. Of apostasy. It's not trivial.

Douglas [05:51:53] Right.

John Dehlin [05:51:54] It's like, were you publicly teaching false doctrine or criticizing the brethren or not? It's not like, well, you said some stuff, I don't remember, but when you didn't ever say anything.

Brennen [05:52:06] Shots. No problem. Proof, which is necessary for a membership council on apostasy to occur. You need everything. You need the proof for it.

Gerardo Sumano [05:52:14] Don't they usually print the actual stuff?

John Dehlin [05:52:16] Oh, they've usually got a big file. The Strengthen the Church member committee sends the bishop or stake president a big old file with like printouts of all the, all the church spies throughout the church who are spying on members to see what they post on social media. They print that out, they put it in their folder, they send it to the bishop and the bishop has the evidence right there. The fact that they didn't have that there and he couldn't even remember what he had read. But that's supposed to be the basis of the grounds for apostasy and for

Brennen [05:52:47] holding this membership council.

John Dehlin [05:52:49] Everything proves that, that they started with, with same sex marriage is the only, is the only reason.

Douglas [05:52:56] Yeah. And they keep saying because the bishop is like, I don't remember what you said, but I remember it being like very pro. Seems like marriage and it was very against the church.

John Dehlin [05:53:05] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [05:53:06] I'm just wondering if these, this bishop and stake president forgot about Elder Christofferson's monumental discussion with Peggy Fletcher Stack concerning the gay marriages. We have, and this is direct, verbatim from an apostle of the church. We have individual members in the church with the, a variety of different opinions, beliefs and positions on these issues and others. In our view, it doesn't really become a problem unless someone is out attacking the church and its leaders and that it's deliberate and it's persistent and is trying to get others to follow them, trying to show, to draw others away, trying to pull people, if you will, out of the church or away from its doctrines and teachings.

John Dehlin [05:53:43] Didn't you just basically say we're married,

Kyle Ashworth [05:53:45] we're married,

Brennen [05:53:47] that's it? Nothing about the church. Nothing, Nothing about the church.

Douglas [05:53:51] I mean there's pictures of us holding hands.

Gerardo Sumano [05:53:53] That was, I mean it was too promoting.

Douglas [05:53:55] It was too promoting.

Brennen [05:53:57] If, if, if, if posting about being married to your same sex partner equals apostasy, then we need to have a whole other discussion.

Kyle Ashworth [05:54:06] It doesn't, because again, in the same interview, an LDS apostle, Elder Christofferson reaffirmed Mormons and this is when we could use the word before Satan started counting victories. Mormons who support gay marriage are not in danger of losing their temple privileges or church membership.

Brennen [05:54:24] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [05:54:25] Interesting.

John Dehlin [05:54:26] Yeah. So that's it. He just, they just completely.

Gerardo Sumano [05:54:29] He made it up.

John Dehlin [05:54:30] Made that up totally. That's super bad because.

Brennen [05:54:33] And we're gonna catch him on it right now.

John Dehlin [05:54:34] Again, it's because it's the grounds.

Gerardo Sumano [05:54:36] So how many, how many strikes do you need? Like bishops that were not contacted stick precedents that were not contacted. It making up stuff about public opposition against the church.

Kyle Ashworth [05:54:46] I promise you, if Maury Povich was here, these men were not the father

Gerardo Sumano [05:54:50] saying that his statement that he read during the council was about. About apostasizing and mischaracterizing leaders of the church. Like, how many lies does this bishop is gonna tell?

John Dehlin [05:55:05] Yeah.

Douglas [05:55:07] Yep.

Brennen [05:55:07] Lying for the Lord.

John Dehlin [05:55:08] Yeah, it's bad. Okay, let's hear it.

Douglas [05:55:13] Go ahead and read the letter. I don't think it's very supportive of the church's stance by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think you, you know, as you were reading that to us in our first council, there wasn't any question in my mind by the end of it that you don't really believe the church is inspired.

Douglas [05:55:31] Doesn't sound like you have any interest in being a member of the Church. I was actually surprised that it was upsetting to you at all. As far as sending the letter. I know that's not the personal way to do it. In having the conversation of I'm engaged in a same sex marriage, I'm opposed to the church's teachings about it, then there's always the possibility in that conversation that someone's membership can be called into question. And if it is, if there's any possibility of that, you have to do things by the book. And by the book is. I know it's informal. I'm sorry that it's informal.

Douglas [05:56:07] I would much rather just have a conversation with you too. I have to send a letter, and it's supposed to be sent with two people that hand deliver it or you send it by certified mail. All of those things are directly out of the handbook. Basically been reading it. And so I know it's impersonal. I'm sorry that it's impersonal. I, again, that's. That's one that, you know, I wish it weren't that way. In saying that that's. That's kind of the way that it is. If there's any possibility that someone's membership can be called in question.

Brennen [05:56:40] So.

Douglas [05:56:40] Because didn't you say you want to talk to them first before you send out a letter and if they, if you're confirmed, because you said you don't work in hearsay, you know, but you immediately you send a letter when, without confirming it with Brennan or making sure that no first, you only heard actually about what he believes after the fact of the letter.

Brennen [05:57:00] So that, you know, or even heard, you know, heard that I was in a same sex relationship, or in this case, it's same sex marriage, which doesn't make sense either, because no one would have known that we were in a same sex marriage. We weren't even public about being married until January 19th of this year. So it doesn't make sense that you would have been able to know that we were married in June of last year if we hadn't even. The only, the only people who knew in June of last year was my parents. My parents and some of my friends. So unless my mom told you that I was saying sex married, which I am very sure that she would have not.

Douglas [05:57:39] Yeah, I think you're still kind of confusing what, what we're actually talking about. The reason that you get a letter instead of a phone call is if someone is engaged in activity that's against the standards of the church and there's a possibility that the membership could be called into question, then you have to do a membership council.

Douglas [05:57:59] If you had come to the membership council, you said, bishop, what you're saying is completely wrong. I'm not in any sort of a same gender relationship. I don't have any problems with the church's standards. You know, when we talk about the three potential outcomes of a membership council, at the end of that, there's a good chance that we'd be saying remains in good standing. Right? There's, there is no issue.

Douglas [05:58:22] And those do happen with membership councils. If you said, you know, bishop, I do have same gender attraction issues, I, I have engaged in some of these things. I still think that the, you know, the leadership of the church, I still have a testimony that it's inspired, you know, I still want to be a member of the church. Then likely it would be, you know, probably a formal restriction of membership.

Douglas [05:58:50] But when we had that council, you came in and you seem, again, you seem really angry about it. But not, not only that, it's one where I don't want you to feel angry. I don't even, I think that maybe you see me or President Potter as an enemy. I don't feel that way towards you, Brennan. I think you're a wonderful person. I understand you have a lifestyle that comes to an impasse with the standards of the church.

Douglas [05:59:16] And in seeing that it's one where you just say, hey, I don't really believe in the standards of the church. And, and that is 100%, you're right. That's one where early on when you ask, hey, can I, can I have Doug come and be with me? I actually wanted you to be there, Doug, because I don't want you to feel like you're alone, Brennan. I don't want you to feel like I'm getting grilled.

Douglas [05:59:37] I actually was hoping it to be a supportive environment where you feel like, you know, I, I'm not alone. I'm not, I'm not being hammered here. Right. In saying that I, I'm still, the only thing that I find surprising, this whole thing is on the one hand, it seems like you argue saying, hey, I really am opposed to having my, my membership withdrawn.

Douglas [06:00:03] Yet on the flip side, it seems like you have no interest in being a member of the church. That's the one that, that I don't really understand. Again, I have lots of co workers, a lot of friends that are homosexual, and I consider them great people. I have no problem.

Kyle Ashworth [06:00:18] And alcoholics, they want to be a

Douglas [06:00:19] member of the church.

John Dehlin [06:00:20] Yeah.

Douglas [06:00:20] They have to change. Right. Just like my friends and colleagues that drink alcohol. I have no problem with them drinking alcohol or engaging in any of those things.

Gerardo Sumano [06:00:29] If you want to be a member

Douglas [06:00:29] of the church, back to alcohol, you have to change. And so it's not one of persecution of, hey, are you persecuting me because I'm gay and I'm in a gay relationship. The answer to that is no. But you do have a lifestyle that is at an impasse with, with the church.

Douglas [06:00:47] No, but yes.

John Dehlin [06:00:48] Yes, that was totally. That was totally. No, but yes, that was totally. It's not that we're persecuting you on a witch hunt for being same sex married. It's that you're living in a lifestyle that's incompatible with the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Brennen [06:01:03] Tomato, tomato.

Kyle Ashworth [06:01:08] We don't like the way you sex,

John Dehlin [06:01:10] but we're not going to say that. It's not that we don't like the way that you sex. It's that we don't like the way that you sex.

Douglas [06:01:16] Yes.

Kyle Ashworth [06:01:18] Because you probably sex with coffee.

John Dehlin [06:01:22] Yeah. And he's still not understanding and he's just unwilling.

Gerardo Sumano [06:01:26] He's a doctor. He understands. He's. I think, I mean, is there a other conclusion that he, he's like purposely deflecting the questions?

Douglas [06:01:35] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:01:35] Someone just Made that exact comment is. I'm sorry, this. This sounds mean, but I know this bishop is a. But I never want to be in his er. This is so sad on very, very many levels, which is completely true.

John Dehlin [06:01:46] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We are literally just going around and around and around.

Brennen [06:01:55] Same sex relationship.

Douglas [06:01:57] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [06:01:58] I think the thing that's so sad about sitting here today is that I think about the efforts we've gone to as a stake, like, with Tom Christofferson and those things. I mean, I think we've tried our very best to try to understand a very difficult situation.

Brennen [06:02:11] We've been very prayerful about it.

Gerardo Sumano [06:02:12] I feel like we've tried our best to try to understand, be empathetic, you know, I mean, try to try to try to understand this at a global scale. I think Tom's a wonderful human. Tom's been fantastic. He's been a great resource. I mean, you're not the only ones that are in the circumstance. You've all been saying, so we do want to be understanding. We do want to be empathetic, but.

John Dehlin [06:02:35] So Tom Kristofferson is a dear friend of mine. I love the guy. He's been really good to me and my family. Do you have any, like, is he basically saying, we had Tom Kristofferson here for a fireside, so our stake checked the box of being lgbt, doing our best to love LGBT people, like. Or are there other things Tom did with his stake that he's referring to?

Douglas [06:02:58] They did have a fireside.

Brennen [06:03:00] There was a fireside. I was there.

Douglas [06:03:01] Yeah, we were there.

John Dehlin [06:03:02] So a fireside. Is that. Is there anything else?

Brennen [06:03:04] That's all that I know of because I was out of the ward at that time, but my mom was like,

Brennen [06:03:08] tom Christopherson speaking, you should come and listen.

John Dehlin [06:03:11] It's like, this is horrible because we've done all this work by having Tom Kristofferson at one fireside, and now it's all being ruined.

Brennen [06:03:19] All being ruined.

Gerardo Sumano [06:03:20] And this is not the first time he. He uses it on the phone conversation as well. The Tom Christopherson card.

Kyle Ashworth [06:03:26] Because Tom's brother is an apostle. He brings this up just so you know, like, we have this connection. This is back to our earlier conversation about having a gay friend.

Douglas [06:03:35] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:03:35] Or a black friend, because I know someone.

Brennen [06:03:38] Tom Christopherson's the gay friend.

John Dehlin [06:03:39] That's exactly it.

Kyle Ashworth [06:03:40] Token Gates, the church is gay friend.

John Dehlin [06:03:43] He's saying, we're sad. We're excommunicating you because we had Tom Christopherson for a fireside. And so this is just a tragedy.

Brennen [06:03:51] I know. It's all, it's all gone.

John Dehlin [06:03:55] It's come to this. Sorry, Tom.

Kyle Ashworth [06:03:57] I know. I apologize to.

Douglas [06:03:58] On behalf of Tom.

John Dehlin [06:04:01] Sorry your, your work is all wasted, Tom. Because anyway, Tom, we love you.

Kyle Ashworth [06:04:05] Well, clearly, if Tom would have been following back to our Spencer W. Kimball discussion, if apparently Tom's knuckles weren't bleeding, he wasn't doing good enough because obviously the steak failed. So if he would have tried just a little bit harder, the stake would have been. Or you two as the same gendered married couple, you would have just done

Brennen [06:04:24] a little bit better.

John Dehlin [06:04:25] But having one gay dude to your steak to give a fireside, is that doing a lot of work? No, I don't think that's doing a lot of work.

Kyle Ashworth [06:04:31] No, it's not.

John Dehlin [06:04:32] What would be a lot of work Work like having monthly, like, trainings. Having. Developing a curriculum, training all the bishops.

Gerardo Sumano [06:04:39] I have another idea. Leaving inactive same sex couples alone.

John Dehlin [06:04:42] Yeah, exactly. Or trading your bishops to stake president so they're competent and all on the same page when they decide to hold the disciplinary council.

Brennen [06:04:50] Actually having clear instruction about what to do for gay.

Douglas [06:04:55] Written.

Brennen [06:04:55] Yeah. Written. Yeah. Not just leaving it. Not just leaving a up to the

Brennen [06:04:59] bishops and the stake presidents.

John Dehlin [06:05:00] Yeah.

Brennen [06:05:01] Actually having clear instructions for them.

Kyle Ashworth [06:05:03] Well, and we know what happens when you are gay and then you do run the circuit and then you actually come out of saying, I'm in a relationship with another man. And then the church cancels you.

Gerardo Sumano [06:05:12] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:05:12] Which is book number two, Charlie Bird. Because that, at that point, you're not allowed an opportunity to even speak at these events again. So that's probably, that's a downfall to the Mormon Church. They're losing an opportunity. Need to better understand the LGBTQ experiences because they're canceling and they're, they're getting rid of the voices that are out there trying to help them navigate and better understand this topic. I think it is a little interesting that, and maybe even methodical that they bring up a Tom Christofferson and not a Charlie Bird or someone else. But that, that's just. We're not gonna, we're not gonna wager

John Dehlin [06:05:47] Josh and Lolly weed. Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:05:49] We're gonna wager in hearsay here because Dave Mason.

John Dehlin [06:05:51] They didn't bring up Dave Matheson or Josh and l. Weed. Like, also, I, I, I know Tom is sincere and he cares and he works really hard, but, but basically he, they're using him like a checkbox. Yeah. It's like, oh, we've done our work. We had Tom. We had Tom for the fireside. We did our work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's not. That's an insult to Tom and to the work.

Brennen [06:06:18] Sorry, Tom.

John Dehlin [06:06:19] All right, let's keep going.

Gerardo Sumano [06:06:22] I just feel bad. I feel bad that this has caused such problem and such concern in your lives. I have no problem taking this, the first presidency. It'll be very easy for me, and. I don't know.

Douglas [06:06:32] Bishop brought up a good point when

Gerardo Sumano [06:06:34] you came to the membership council. Keep in mind I've not read this yet. So when I read this mean. Does this type of letter you follow him saying end up factoring into a decision that's made by a bishop, if you follow what I'm saying? So I need to read this to understand what the position is, because what bishop is saying is exactly right, depending on what is discussed. I mean, that can happen in an outcome that can affect the outcome of that discussion for sure.

Brennen [06:06:55] There's no question.

John Dehlin [06:06:57] And again, the letter. The letter has nothing to do with anything.

Douglas [06:07:01] I think it does.

John Dehlin [06:07:02] Nothing in the letter. There's nothing in the letter that would constitute apostasy. Apostasy is. We've said this already 10 times now. Open opposition, repeated open opposition to the church publicly. So it's a red herring. What you said in your letter in your district.

Kyle Ashworth [06:07:19] The bishop and stake president could have saved our. We could have all saved ourselves another hour and a half if he would have just spent 10 minutes and read the letter and then said, oh, my gosh, like, what is in this letter? Where's the second or third page?

John Dehlin [06:07:29] Still wouldn't qualify for apostasy even if he had read it.

Kyle Ashworth [06:07:32] Yeah, but I'm no judge in Israel.

Douglas [06:07:34] Right.

Douglas [06:07:37] With the outcome.

Gerardo Sumano [06:07:38] Oh, sorry.

Douglas [06:07:39] We kind of came home and talking, and he's fine with, like.

Gerardo Sumano [06:07:42] He said he was gonna read it at the beginning when. When you handed him the letter, he said.

Brennen [06:07:46] He said, I'm gonna read it as we're going along.

Gerardo Sumano [06:07:48] As we're going along. For some reason, once you start explaining what it was in there, he decided to not read it and rather just.

Brennen [06:07:55] He was. He was turning pages over and he was looking through and. Yeah, so he.

John Dehlin [06:08:00] He.

Brennen [06:08:00] He was skimming it.

Guest [06:08:01] Yeah.

Brennen [06:08:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [06:08:02] But I. I feel like as he was skimming or whatever he was and the conversation he's starting to get, he's

Brennen [06:08:10] starting to sense that nothing in here is about to say.

Gerardo Sumano [06:08:12] Yeah. That he's in trouble. Pretty much, yeah.

Brennen [06:08:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [06:08:15] All right, let's keep going.

Douglas [06:08:23] The fact that it's being withdrawn, it just coming back to how it started

Brennen [06:08:29] in the first place.

Douglas [06:08:30] This is where I keep going back to this. But we still feel discredited. We still like our feelings weren't felt. We, you know, we just want to feel like, you should admit that this come out of nowhere, that this is, you know, like, we just want to be living our life. Because according to what you said, right, if you're for living not according to the church standard, there should be a membership question in place.

Brennen [06:08:58] Is that correct?

Douglas [06:09:00] So anytime we do anything, and. And this is. This includes me also, right? If I do something that is not in harmony with the church, with the standards of the church, then there is a process. I confess it and I forsake it. As a bishop, I would talk with President. If someone is a member of my word, they would talk with me. And in doing that, sometimes we make decisions that does affect our membership or it can. And if that is the case. So if I came to president, I said, I'm having thoughts or feelings that contradict the church. And again, I know that the LGBTQ

Brennen [06:09:34] question right now with you is really hot.

Douglas [06:09:36] So I try to do. Let's do some other. Other topic. The second said, I just don't really believe the word of wisdom is inspired.

Guest [06:09:44] Right.

Douglas [06:09:44] Originally, it wasn't a commandment. It was not originally by constraint. That's what it says in the revelation. I don't really want to live it. And I've started to drink alcohol. If I have that conversation with him, there are several outcomes that can happen. Sometimes they can say, are you willing to try? And if the answer is yes, then sometimes they say, well, then, you know, we do kind of an informal restriction of membership. You may say, while you're doing this, you can't go to the temple. You can't do some of these things you would normally do.

Brennen [06:10:15] If.

Douglas [06:10:17] If I said I have no interest in trying, and I think that it's uninspired. I think it was a mistake that it was ever outlawed, and I think everyone in the church should be able to drink alcohol. Then there's a good chance he would pull me in and say, we really need to have a membership council, because there is a chance that you're going to have formal restrictions or potentially a membership, have your own membership withdrawn.

John Dehlin [06:10:38] So in this case, again, that's not true. There needs to be public opposition.

Gerardo Sumano [06:10:44] Well, and that's why he's using his. His own example as a bishop, because he knows that the consequences for believing something like that as a bishop, obviously the stakes are much more higher and he would be being called for a membership Council as a bishop for believing the Word of Wisdom is not inspired.

John Dehlin [06:11:01] It's just dumb because never in the history of Mormonism that I'm aware of has anyone ever been excommunicated for losing their faith in the Word of Wisdom. So it's a stupid, dumb hypothetical that is totally irrelevant.

Brennen [06:11:14] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [06:11:15] Yeah, yeah.

Brennen [06:11:21] Would the membership council is. Is it being called because of their conduct regarding alcohol and the Word of Wisdom, or is it related to their beliefs regarding the church? Is that why this keeps coming up?

Douglas [06:11:37] Because, well, it's kind of the same issue in the. In the example I just gave you would be based upon that issue that I have. If I felt like they're not inspired. This is my biggest issue with the Word of Wisdom, then it's kind of. You're asking, is it this one or that one? And the answer is, well, it's both. And if I believe that the presidency of the church is inspired, if I believe that we have ongoing revelation and what they ask me to do, I'm going to do all that I can to get my life in harmony with it. Right.

Brennen [06:12:06] The reason why I ask is because a membership council is not going to be called for conduct related to the Word of Wisdom for somebody drinking on their own time. A membership council wouldn't be called for that. And that's not a statute. A membership council to even may be required or is required, but apostasy and believing that the church is not divinely inspired in their teachings regarding alcohol, and you're publicly spreading that on social media, whatever it may be, that.

Douglas [06:12:37] Can I say the second thing and the second example based on that, what you said, that means that people who are inactive in the church and join a different church will also be called for membership council. Is that correct?

Douglas [06:12:49] Sometimes they are.

Douglas [06:12:50] What do you mean? Sometimes they are? Like. Can you clarify when sometimes. Like what. What would constitute when they are called? Is it like if they join the Jehovah Witness and they're called. And if they join the Catholic and they're not called, like what. What do you mean by sometimes they're not called? If they're inactive, not going to church, I mean, you still know where they live. Do you still come and send them a letter? Letter and say, can you have a membership council because you've been inactive in the church?

Gerardo Sumano [06:13:16] The sad thing is right now, Doug and Brendan, it wouldn't matter what we said. I don't think at this moment in time, I think that you feel very much feel hostile towards us, that somehow we've gone out to hunt you down. I assure you that's not the case. I feel bad you feel that way. I feel like we're asking the same question a number of different ways. What I want to do is pledge you my commitment. I believe that the first presidency is inspired. I believe in the quorum of the twelve Apostles. I just love to take this document with a cover paper and say here's exactly the process that was followed. Here's the letter. This is the letter in response that was prepared by Brennan.

Brennen [06:13:50] You know what I mean?

Guest [06:13:51] And.

Gerardo Sumano [06:13:51] And let the first presidency say what would they like us to do? I just feel like no matter what

Douglas [06:13:56] we say, that's not true. Actually. If you say. If you just admit that this is we. We should have not come out and just send you a letter and we just let you know you living your life.

Brennen [06:14:10] The circumstances letting you that a council should have been called. Because we believe that the circumstances were not such that a council should have been called. You said that same sex marriage in and of itself is not a reason for a council to be held.

Douglas [06:14:24] And to this point you didn't know about his belief until after the council's already.

Brennen [06:14:29] And to this point, I've made no action against a church that would constitute as apostasy.

Douglas [06:14:35] And so to the point of the council, in fact, because we did tell.

Gerardo Sumano [06:14:39] Promise you, nothing's happened to your membership yet to this moment because it sits

Douglas [06:14:42] in my court right now.

Gerardo Sumano [06:14:44] So there's nothing to tell Recognition at this moment. It's sitting there. But I would love to pursue this honestly the first president because I don't want you walking away feeling like bishop and I have an ax to grind. We don't.

John Dehlin [06:14:56] Guys, he just completely ignored what you said. He said nothing they could ever say or do would make you happy. You're just angry and upset at this point as a way to just dismiss you, you said. No, no, no. There is something very specific you could say. You could admit that you were wrong and you should have never called the disciplinary council in the first place. You said that to. To him and then his response was, well, we can punt it to the first presidency and see what they say. Did he even listen to what you had just said?

Brennen [06:15:28] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [06:15:34] Yeah, yeah. Like he's not listening and he's basically saying you're just angry and there's nothing we could say. So we're gonna.

Brennen [06:15:42] This is this. All right. Ready? We're gonna have a class on gaslighting number one and how to conduct a meeting like this.

John Dehlin [06:15:50] Yeah.

Brennen [06:15:50] Don't acknowledge what the person is saying.

John Dehlin [06:15:53] Don't listen.

Brennen [06:15:53] Don't. Don't listen.

John Dehlin [06:15:54] Yeah.

Brennen [06:15:55] If, if they ever ask you a question, that's an opportunity for you to change the topic so you don't, you don't have to answer the question that

Douglas [06:16:02] they're asking you just ask them another question.

John Dehlin [06:16:04] Yeah.

Brennen [06:16:04] And say, oh, you know what I think is sad about this.

Brennen [06:16:07] Yeah.

Brennen [06:16:08] Whatever it may be, the ask. Having said, somebody ask you a question, it's the perfect opportunity for you to not answer and switch the topic.

John Dehlin [06:16:14] And then after a hundred times of not answering the question and deflecting say back to them, well, nothing that, nothing that we can say can make you happy.

Brennen [06:16:24] Exactly. Exactly.

Guest [06:16:27] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [06:16:27] This makes no sense.

John Dehlin [06:16:29] Yeah. Okay, let's keep going.

Gerardo Sumano [06:16:34] I mean, look at how many stakes

Brennen [06:16:35] are in the church. Valley.

Gerardo Sumano [06:16:37] How many stakes have had Tom Christopherson

Douglas [06:16:38] come speak, bring up Tom again. Many. I'm sure there's many in Boise. Actually. We went to one actually when we were here.

Brennen [06:16:49] And I would hope that Tom Christopherson would not want a membership council to be held on the basis of same sex marriage alone.

Gerardo Sumano [06:17:00] I want you to know that was in our commitment from a state perspective to try to understand and better understand what do we do and how do we do it.

Brennen [06:17:08] That was right.

Brennen [06:17:09] I, I, I appreciate the citation.

Brennen [06:17:12] And I, I think that Tom Kristofferson is a great guy and I think he's, I don't know, he has a lot of knowledge that should be shared in the church to a lot of its members. But I don't think that what's happened before, during and since the council has been in line with what we would describe as equal treatment and proper conduct of LGBTQ members of the church. And that's our reason for being here, is because of that, to get clarification and to clear up all the things that are, in our opinion are clearly out ill treatment of gay people. And so hopefully by coming here and talking about these things, we can leave here not thinking that. But so far, I mean, you said that it doesn't seem like anything we've talked about so far has changed that perspective.

Gerardo Sumano [06:18:15] No, I just feel like you guys are so frustrated and upset with what doing we're at. What I would love to do is take a step back, get an opinion from the first presidency of what I'm saying. And listen, I'll tell you what. If, if, if we feel like there's a situation where Bishop or myself and like, hey, there's a misstep, Doug, we'd be the very first ones to say, hey, we're. We apologize, we're sorry. We're not out here trying to split hairs, guys. I believe very deeply in the Savior. I do. If I could live in the. If I could live in the Holy Land, I'd live there, man.

Gerardo Sumano [06:18:42] I just came back a few weeks ago. Every time I go, I feel like I learn more, I appreciate more. I love the gospel, man. I do. I'm all in. I love the gospel and I love the fact that when I turn my life towards the Savior and I do my very best to do what the Savior's taught me to do, I find that there's many areas of my life that change. I mean, I go to sacramenting every Sunday so I can try to get incrementally better week by week. You know, make mistakes, have a setback. You know, those are the goals of

Douglas [06:19:12] going back to church over and over and over.

Gerardo Sumano [06:19:14] That's. I, I believe deeply in it. I do. I love the gospel.

Kyle Ashworth [06:19:18] At one point in time, you guys,

Brennen [06:19:19] he's not talking to us anymore. He's talking to whoever's listening to this recording to the First Presidency, to make sure that, that they know Stake president is a good guy and he's a believing, lds, good Mormon priesthood holder.

John Dehlin [06:19:34] One of my favorite moments was when. When he's like, tom Kristofferson. Tom Kristofferson. And you're like, oh, well, Tom Kristofferson would hate what you guys are doing.

Brennen [06:19:42] Yeah, I. I hope Tom Kristofferson wouldn't know that this is going on.

John Dehlin [06:19:45] He's like, change subject. Change subject.

Kyle Ashworth [06:19:49] But I've been to the Holy Land.

John Dehlin [06:19:51] I came back. I love Jesus. I've been in the Holy Land. I'm so rich. I get to go to the Holy Land.

Kyle Ashworth [06:19:56] Larry Gelwick invited me on a cruise. I went that one time.

John Dehlin [06:20:01] Oh, man. Yeah, and that's a good point. They know they're being recorded by this point, so they're just great. Yeah, they're grandstanding.

Brennen [06:20:08] You can tell. He's mentioned it, you know, three, four times now that, okay, we're gonna send this to the. The First Presidency. This is his closing. He's trying to, well, definish.

John Dehlin [06:20:18] He is giving you an answer. He's saying, we don't think we've done anything wrong.

Brennen [06:20:21] Yeah, that's basically it. He's like, okay, we don't need to talk anymore because I've not. We've not done anything wrong. So for the moment, it looks like we're not going to get anywhere. Let's Send it the first presidency. That's his answer.

John Dehlin [06:20:37] All right.

Brennen [06:20:39] Definitely.

Gerardo Sumano [06:20:40] Yeah. That's the part that I, that's the part when I was asking, like from an outcome perspective, you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [06:20:46] Like, oh, no.

Gerardo Sumano [06:20:47] Is your goal to please to go to church? Is your goal to be able to go to sacrament? That's why I was asking those questions. That was, that was what I was getting at.

Douglas [06:20:55] If you think, if you really want to know. Personally, I don't know about Brennan personally. I just want to go back to my neutral because right now I'm having

Brennen [06:21:02] hostile feeling towards church interest leader.

Douglas [06:21:05] Because like I said before this whole council was being brought up before this letter, I was perfectly fine neutral. I'm not going to speak out against the church.

Brennen [06:21:13] I'm not going to share something about

Douglas [06:21:14] like, oh, this, this is stupid.

Brennen [06:21:16] Now we have every reason.

Douglas [06:21:18] I'm never going to share that to anyone. I don't think Brendan ever said that either way. But like, that I just want to be neutral because, like, I still think the church is. But at this. Because you said, no matter what you said, I'm going to be hostile.

Brennen [06:21:31] That's not true.

Douglas [06:21:32] If you just admit what you do, which is kind of unfair, then, you know, I'm happy to like, okay, like, at least now they. I just want.

Gerardo Sumano [06:21:40] Oh, I'd be the first to do it, I promise you.

Douglas [06:21:42] So I'm glad you said.

Brennen [06:21:43] Yeah, the, the, the dichotomy here is

Brennen [06:21:46] that I, it doesn't seem like in

Brennen [06:21:48] either opinions that there has been any intention or action made towards us that would constitute as ill treatment or hostile towards us.

Douglas [06:22:01] No, go ahead.

Brennen [06:22:02] No.

Douglas [06:22:03] One thing I would say again, Brennan and Doug, both of you, when we talk about membership councils, the, the reason it was changed, at least this is my interpretation, the reason the name of that was changed from a disciplinary hearing to a church council is disciplinary.

Brennen [06:22:22] Yeah. It's like you just opened up the handbook and he's like, okay, let's just start reading it to distract from the topic.

Douglas [06:22:27] It's very possible at the end of that you end up saying, hey, this, there is, there's no grounds for this. Right. You remain in good standing. The whole thing is just as if it never happened. The whole whole idea there is specifically to find out.

Brennen [06:22:41] That's what we said. There's no grounds for this. It's unnecessary.

Guest [06:22:44] In.

Douglas [06:22:45] So in saying that if, if President Cotter worked it, send me a letter and say, hey, we need to have a church council, my first thought would be there must have been some misunderstanding. I come say what's going on and if there's something I've done that's wrong that I need to, to change, you know, the whole idea is if you identify that forming president, tell me what it is, what do you think I need to do? And if it's something that, again, that I feel so strong about, no, I'm, I'm absolutely not going to change this and it comes to a loggerhead, then maybe my, my membership gets withdrawn or I get placed on, you know, formal disciplinary or, I'm sorry, a formal restriction. But the whole concept of a church council, I think again, the thing that you feel so attacked about Brennan, is just you guys, I don't know, showing

Brennen [06:23:34] up with a letter.

Douglas [06:23:36] And that's one that, if that, it sounds like that really upset you, if that upset you, I'm sorry, that's one that is mandated by, by the handbook. If there's any chance that your membership can be called into question, you have to do it this specific way, either certified mail or two people deliver. And so as far as that being an impersonal way, I'll be the first one to apologize that that's the way that you were contacted.

Brennen [06:24:02] Yeah, that wasn't, it wasn't the only thing that was. I don't know that I started the fire of the frustration. It, I mean, it was the beginning of it. But I mean, as we came to the council and I had conversations with both of you, there were different things being said. And to me that, that didn't feel good because I would hope that as people, priesthood holders and call to the church, there'd be consistency in the, in the things said.

Brennen [06:24:40] And so that was, I mean, another reason for frustration and for the clarification that we're, that we're seeking here. It wasn't just the letter, that was just the beginning of it. And I mean the rest of the stuff that we've been talking about is, I feel like is evidence that that wasn't the only thing. If that was the only thing, that'd be the only thing that we're talking about. But there are other things that are attributing that have attributed to that frustration other than just the delivering of the letter.

Douglas [06:25:10] So, yeah, delivering letter, it's a contacting his mom for the address. It's the just conflicting opinion. It's the not consent or like uninformed

Brennen [06:25:26] with some of the checking in making, making it seem like it was about my beliefs regarding the church or that I been speaking out against the Church when I Haven't.

Douglas [06:25:39] So are you saying you didn't speak out against the church?

Brennen [06:25:42] My lord,

Douglas [06:25:45] for the 10th, besides talking

Brennen [06:25:46] to you, this is a question that I actually did have because in the letter it did say that it was related to my conduct. It was as being called to the membership council for my conduct related to same sex marriage, which alone isn't a reason to call membership council. But it sounds like you had run across something that would constitute as me speaking out against the church. So was there something that you felt like was constituted as apostasy that was also like an underlying reason to the council? It wasn't purely for same sex marriage. There was something else that.

Douglas [06:26:25] Your position on, on that.

Gerardo Sumano [06:26:27] Your position. Yeah, I was gonna say so the position that you took, I should make sure we're speaking the same language. You've never spoken out against the church and, or its leaders?

Brennen [06:26:34] Not one time? No. Okay. Not, not publicly as it would constitute in, in the, in the, in the handbook.

Brennen [06:26:41] Because if I'm expressing this to my

Brennen [06:26:43] husband,

Gerardo Sumano [06:26:46] you've never spoken to anyone.

Douglas [06:26:47] To our, some of our friends, so close friends, but we never, we, you know, nothing like, oh, this church, but this is what a posse should, should be like, which should constitute as a discipline needed to happen in a membership council. It's like repeatedly acting in clear and deliberate public opposition to the church, its action, its policy or its leader. Right. We don't do that. Deliberate, public, you know, we, we talk. These are closed door conversations.

Brennen [06:27:16] I'm not going out of my way to speak out out against the church

Douglas [06:27:19] only because people ask social media. No, no, no. You will never find any social media that talks about church even. I mean if you saying that, saying that we just got married as against church and his leader, then, you know, I don't know, maybe that's if that's

Brennen [06:27:35] the basis and that's because that's all we've been sharing.

Gerardo Sumano [06:27:37] Did you. And you both attended byu, correct?

Douglas [06:27:40] I, I attended byu.

Brennen [06:27:41] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [06:27:42] And when you were attending byu, you kept your honor code.

Douglas [06:27:46] Yeah, I obviously dated him, but I didn't share anything online ever. We. The first thing I shared after you graduated to get married, even the first thing I shared on social media about being gay or being married was January of this year. And it's only because I just say, hey guys, I'm married, come to my reception. Nothing regarding nothing. I've never mentioned the word, hey, churches, we're married.

Brennen [06:28:12] But the church is in opposition to

Douglas [06:28:15] this and man, we really never mentioned the church leader.

Brennen [06:28:19] That was never said. And Never the intention at all.

Brennen [06:28:25] And so when we're, when we're talking

Brennen [06:28:27] about apostasy or my beliefs being an opposition of the Church, I haven't done anything with those beliefs, beliefs that would constitute as apostasy. I haven't spoken out against. I, I believe those things. But that's not a reason to hold a membership council, to just have those beliefs because I'm a priest and I'm

Douglas [06:28:48] not temple endowed and been active.

Brennen [06:28:51] And if that was the case, or

Brennen [06:28:53] it was the case for me to be called because of my beliefs that were in opposition to the Church, then I would hope that would have been in the letter. But it wasn't. I was called because of my conduct, not because of my thoughts and beliefs that are in opposition to the Church, because of my conduct related to same sex marriage. And so the fact that I was called for that and then the, the new conversation of have you, what beliefs do you have that are in opposition to the Church?

Brennen [06:29:26] Have you been talking to people that the church is wrong in this area? And that in and of itself was hurtful and confusing because that was never spoken of or brought up before the council. And so it doesn't seem, it is misleading if we're going to call a council on the basis of the my conduct but then bring up all these other things about that I wasn't called for.

Gerardo Sumano [06:29:59] Well, conduct is a very wide word too.

Douglas [06:30:02] I don't know what he's trying to get.

Brennen [06:30:04] Yeah, he's going to put everything on

Kyle Ashworth [06:30:05] this word conduct, that it's conduct as your opinions.

Gerardo Sumano [06:30:09] But I just want to make sure we're saying the same thing and you're recording it. Doug. So you've never spoken out against the Church?

Douglas [06:30:15] Never once on social media. Byu except for dating him. But that's it.

Brennen [06:30:21] We should do your membership council at the same time.

Douglas [06:30:23] Yeah, but this is his membership council.

Brennen [06:30:27] And to answer your question.

Brennen [06:30:30] Correct.

Gerardo Sumano [06:30:31] I'm just trying to understand. So neither one of you have ever taken an adverse position to the Church?

Douglas [06:30:37] No, never publicly. Only in closed door conflict. Even, even those we would never be like. This is probably the most detailed.

Brennen [06:30:44] All this repeated questioning is him verifying that the Bishop's story is lying. Is he's making sure, he's making absolutely sure that what the Bishop told him was not true by asking us directly because up to this point he still, he was still thinking that we were apostasizing as a same sex couple. But we were not. And so he honestly, and, and in, in between both of them, I, I feel I Feel, you know, I feel bad for the stake president more because he's also. He's also been gaslighted and been kept in the dark about this. And so he's.

Brennen [06:31:24] He.

Brennen [06:31:25] The entire. This entire conversation, he's been trying to figure it out. And the reason why we keep going in these loops is because he's not getting it yet. And so finally. Finally, towards the end, he. I think he finally gets it that there was no apostasy ever. And I think he realized that when he was reading the letter during the. The entire conversation, too. He realized there's nothing here.

Gerardo Sumano [06:31:46] That's something that I'm realizing just right now. Like, he's reading the document he has in front of him, and he is realizing he can't point to anything there that he can say. Oh, here. There's like, let's talk about this. Nothing.

Brennen [06:31:59] So they're back to square one.

John Dehlin [06:32:02] But it's fishing because it's like, okay. Did you ever, at any time, ever say anything to anyone?

Gerardo Sumano [06:32:08] What about byu? What about the honor code? Did you keep the honor code?

Brennen [06:32:11] Well, it wasn't even his dis.

John Dehlin [06:32:14] Council.

Brennen [06:32:14] I know.

Kyle Ashworth [06:32:15] Did you take the sacrament with your left hand? Because Oak doesn't like that.

Brennen [06:32:19] He's covering all of his bases because he wants to make sure that what he told was a lie.

John Dehlin [06:32:23] I'm surprised he didn't say, did you look at porn once or masturbate once when you were 14? You know what I mean? Like.

Kyle Ashworth [06:32:29] Like, yeah, he would have if it wasn't recorded.

John Dehlin [06:32:35] He's super stretching. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [06:32:37] But I think it's art. Like, Brendan has a good point. Is out of his desperation of, like, realizing in real time that there's no basis for them being there.

John Dehlin [06:32:46] Yeah. Yeah.

Brennen [06:32:47] Yep.

Brennen [06:32:48] This. This is his way of verifying.

John Dehlin [06:32:50] It's like a Hail Mary pass.

Douglas [06:32:51] Yeah.

Brennen [06:32:52] He's. He's trying. I think he honestly was trying to come close. Clean about it. I think he. I think he was trying to have good intentions in doing it so well.

John Dehlin [06:33:01] He's got five minutes. He's got four, five minutes left. He's got five minutes left to come clean or to figure it out. So let's see if he can do it.

Brennen [06:33:12] Yeah. That we've ever compiled our thoughts regarding the church. This.

Gerardo Sumano [06:33:17] This is your thoughts or your collective thoughts? Both of yours.

Douglas [06:33:20] Maybe it's Brennan. I. I mean, I help clarify with,

Brennen [06:33:24] like, references, but this is all me. Yeah. Or on my own time.

Douglas [06:33:29] I. If I can write another letter based on my thoughts.

Gerardo Sumano [06:33:34] I just want to make sure when I put this cover letter, the first presidency, if it represents both of you.

Douglas [06:33:38] No, it's this.

Brennen [06:33:39] Represent.

Douglas [06:33:41] I have my own thoughts.

Douglas [06:33:42] Yeah, sure.

Brennen [06:33:44] That'd be. I don't know, it wouldn't. It'd be kind of not nonsensical to bring a letter about Doug's beliefs regarding the church and for LGBTQ issues to my membership council. So, no, it's just for me. Okay.

Douglas [06:34:00] Any other questions?

Gerardo Sumano [06:34:01] Bishop, on your end? We'll get back to you guys soon. I really appreciate your time.

Douglas [06:34:03] It was very nice to meet you,

Gerardo Sumano [06:34:04] Doug, and nice to see you again.

Brennen [06:34:06] He's trying to close it out.

Douglas [06:34:07] Yeah. Thank you. Send out a message. Let us know what you think next.

Gerardo Sumano [06:34:12] Because though we'll be in touch, we'll meet again for sure, I promise you. But I'll get this off by tomorrow.

Brennen [06:34:17] I'll have it off. Off to them by tomorrow.

Gerardo Sumano [06:34:19] Five o'.

Guest [06:34:19] Clock.

Brennen [06:34:20] Yeah, I. I wish we could get their perspective on everything that's gone on before, during, and after the council, because the majority of my frustration for what's

Brennen [06:34:33] been going on, all articulated in the

Gerardo Sumano [06:34:35] letter, trust me, not.

Brennen [06:34:37] Not that specific specifically. I mean, the. The miscommunication and the contradictions and the misconstruing what the. The council was even about. That's where the. All the majority of this frustration is coming from. This is a whole. This is a compilation of what is frustrating to me about the. The church's teachings regarding LGBTQ issues. But the frustration that we're coming here about is because of what's happened before, during, and after the membership council between you two, not because of anything. That letter, if I wanted, I could probably send that to the First Presidency myself, but I don't think anything's going to change because of one letter. So.

Douglas [06:35:25] So what are you thinking? What you were saying. I think he just needs to be clarified on what you've been like.

Brennen [06:35:30] What are you hoping will come of

Brennen [06:35:31] this by Sunday night?

Gerardo Sumano [06:35:33] I'm just going to go through and articulate the conversation before the letter that got sent to you, our conversation together, our meeting today and this. And ask the First Presidency. Hey, would you guys please point out the areas where Bishop did the wrong thing?

Brennen [06:35:47] You know what I mean?

Gerardo Sumano [06:35:47] Let us know where we've aired in church policy. Doug and Brennan feel strongly that we did the wrong thing, and if we did, we want to be the first to appoint. Apologize. That's the governing body.

Brennen [06:35:56] Notice how you only said the.

Gerardo Sumano [06:35:57] So that's the way I'm writing the letter. It's not to be critical of you.

Brennen [06:36:00] Right. That none of that will. None of what's in this letter is going to communicate that if the intention is to get clarification for the First Presidency on where you two have erred in. In terms of the handbook, policies, or the conducting of the membership Council, that's not going to help with any of it.

Douglas [06:36:19] I think what he meant is to show that what happened in the Council as you read that letter, I don't think it's. It's meant to convince them of anything.

Douglas [06:36:26] It's.

Guest [06:36:27] Yeah.

Douglas [06:36:28] So I think that's what he meant.

Gerardo Sumano [06:36:30] We're asking First Presidency. Can you please just articulate where.

Guest [06:36:33] If.

Gerardo Sumano [06:36:33] If we've done something wrong and we've made a mistake, please let us know that. That's. That's the approach I'm taking with the First Presidency. That's.

Brennen [06:36:42] That's what I'm going to do.

Gerardo Sumano [06:36:42] But I'm going to send this as part of that. I'm just going to put a cover letter over the top of it to say, here's the sequence of events. This is what happened. These are the conversations that Bishop and I had. This was the letter that went out. This is all of it. Please let us know. You caught him saying, you know what I mean?

Brennen [06:36:57] Where are we bared?

Gerardo Sumano [06:36:59] And then wait for the first presence to respond to Bishop and I, and then we can bring you back together and say, hey, First Presidency reached out and X, Y and Z. That was my goal, that was my hope to try to take this and. And diffuse it in a way so that, you know, we're serious when we say we have no problem guys apologizing. We don't. We're not trying to die on some hill. Like we're adversarial to you. We're not. Like, we. We love the gospel, man. We're all in.

John Dehlin [06:37:24] We're all in, all in on what

Douglas [06:37:28] you would like to do next.

Gerardo Sumano [06:37:29] Absolutely. I think it's something. Peace of mind.

Brennen [06:37:33] Yeah.

Douglas [06:37:33] Yeah. Like I said, peace of mind.

Brennen [06:37:35] Yeah.

Douglas [06:37:36] So we just want to live our happy life.

Kyle Ashworth [06:37:41] I just wonder if he wants that

Brennen [06:37:42] situation would be to go back in time and, you know, wish none of this never happened.

Gerardo Sumano [06:37:48] But I think there's a reason for everything, honestly. So there's a reason we're here. I really believe that. Guys. Maybe he's not.

Brennen [06:37:54] We're not here, by the way, that

Gerardo Sumano [06:37:56] we wanted to get here potentially.

Brennen [06:37:57] But I'm really glad.

Gerardo Sumano [06:37:58] It was great to see again, brother. I mean, I'm trying to think how many years it's been since I've Seen it.

Douglas [06:38:02] It's been a while.

Gerardo Sumano [06:38:02] It's not, it's not, it's not been a year.

Brennen [06:38:05] Yeah, well, I, I think I stopped going to church right after I graduated high school. So within four years. All right.

Brennen [06:38:16] Then we get into conversations.

John Dehlin [06:38:18] They're all in on everything but actually listening. Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:38:21] With that cover letter, hopefully he wants some MP3s and some MP4s to include to the first.

Douglas [06:38:26] I know I, I, I would. I should have said, hey, by the way, I have all the recordings. You want to include that too?

Brennen [06:38:31] Hey, we can still send them to them.

Kyle Ashworth [06:38:33] Well, unfortunately the scm.

Gerardo Sumano [06:38:34] Can you imagine the first presidency like reading all this stuff and what are they gonna do? Like, well, it's not so unrealistic.

John Dehlin [06:38:41] Isn't the whole point that it's a local matter?

Douglas [06:38:44] Like is it the bishop president?

John Dehlin [06:38:46] So is it a local matter if they have to pump it, pun it upstairs to have them make the final decision?

Gerardo Sumano [06:38:52] Exactly.

Brennen [06:38:52] I think the only reason the stake president is, is recommending and wanting to do this is because at this point he realized how like he was completely fooled and, and completely thought that this was for something other than same sex marriage. And so he's not ready to admit it because he's still working it through himself. The only person in the room who had the opportunity and who knows everything that was going on was the bishop and, and that that's where it should have come from. I not, not to fully remove the stick president from, you know, the situation but I really, I, I do think that he was just as confused as we were.

John Dehlin [06:39:33] And so I don't know. I don't know because the bishop said at the beginning the stake president started the whole thing.

Douglas [06:39:40] That's correct.

Brennen [06:39:41] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [06:39:41] But I mean we already, we already know like at least four or five lies from the bishop.

Kyle Ashworth [06:39:46] That bishop is lying it.

Brennen [06:39:48] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:39:49] So I'm not convinced the state president knew about it.

Gerardo Sumano [06:39:51] Yeah, me either.

Brennen [06:39:52] But right now what we're left at is this, you know, he's said he's going to the, the end part that was cut off. He says he's going to send this off and then that we will get back together very soon is what he said.

Kyle Ashworth [06:40:04] I also, I also know the way the church works and this letter's not going. That's, yeah, this letter is going to be forwarded back to the area Authority who'll then send it down to, to this who the 70 to the area Authority. Area Authority back to the state president.

John Dehlin [06:40:17] And you'll never see what the response was. When I appealed they wouldn't even let me have or read the letter. That was the response to the appeal. They just told me, we got a letter, your appeal's been denied. I'm like, can I have a copy of the letter? They're like, no.

Kyle Ashworth [06:40:32] It still doesn't answer the question as to the status of your current membership. I mean, we know the stake president at this point has not excommunicated you, but yet he makes it so ambiguous in the discussion where he's saying, we need to see whether or not we erred and the First Presidency will tell us where we erred. Yes. You erred in what? In holding the Disciplinary Council or you erred in. He asked him revoking the membership. What. Where is the error? And what are we. What are we determining the error to be? Because at this point, you've not received a letter saying your membership has been terminated or rescinded or. Or whatever, revoked or whatever the Church is calling it. Withdrawn now.

Brennen [06:41:07] Right.

Brennen [06:41:08] So there's not. There's no decision that they're trying to combat, so it's not going to do anything. And really. Really, what I think this is is just. They're trying to buy time for another response, to figure out how they can adequately cover this up without anybody hearing.

Gerardo Sumano [06:41:25] Well, I honestly thought. Yeah. That they were not. They're. They're just gonna let time pass and not really.

John Dehlin [06:41:30] Yeah, this will air. This is airing now. People will care about it, but they know that if they wait three months or six months or nine months or 12 months, that. That people will turn their attention to other things and then they can quietly give you a letter and no one's going to care at that point. Yeah, I. I'll just say a couple things in response to my excommunication recordings. Probably the number one response was, john, I can't believe how kind and patient you were. And I want to say the same thing to you both, given how outrageously ridiculous this whole process was. You two were amazingly poised and patient and charitable in. In how you just patiently, repeatedly tried to just educate them about how they had bundled this and hurt you. And you never got angry, you never got insulting. You. You behaved so well.

Kyle Ashworth [06:42:30] I think that's fair and super admirable because. And I look not only at this, the strength and the stability of their relationship, but I look at those more vulnerable than Doug and Brennan and wonder, what. What are their situations like? I know what their situations are like because, you know, working in this space with LGBTQ people, especially at the intersection of Mormonism, And LGBTQ Street. We deal in triage almost on a daily basis, mainly at the hands of church leaders who initiate policy and procedure like this. And we literally are picking up pieces, trying to put families back together, trying to bring happiness back into a life, trying to create a solid footing where someone can walk away with their dignity and respect.

Douglas [06:43:12] And.

Kyle Ashworth [06:43:12] And we don't see that too much too often. So I also want to echo what John is saying and. And just commend you for your ability to stay firm and strong and to the point and. And to stand up for who and what you are. And. And that's what we need to see more of. And. And maybe that is what we've talked about in terms of threat and what the Church is most afraid of. I honestly believe the Church is more afraid of Douglas and Brennan's than they are of those who quietly walk away in the night or of those who just resign their membership and never show up again.

Other Couples Facing Similar Councils

Kyle Ashworth [06:43:40] You are a threat to the Church because you've defied the narrative and you've been able to stand up to the Goliath and with your single sling and your one rock, you were able to confound a bishop in front of a stake president. And that rarely happens. It shouldn't have happened. You should have never been put in this position. But again, thank you. Thank you on behalf of our community for standing up for. For who and what you are with dignity and respect. And I think that goes a long ways.

Brennen [06:44:07] Thank you.

John Dehlin [06:44:08] Yeah, I. I have a question really quick, Kyle, if it's okay. So you. You have been in touch with, what, eight other couples that have been excommunicated for the crime of same sex marriage, right?

Kyle Ashworth [06:44:22] Yeah. So I'm following your case. I think we're now 13 different couples currently, but six. Six cases that have been ended up in excommunication and two more couples. So four more people who. The bishops have just done nothing.

Brennen [06:44:37] They've just walked away.

John Dehlin [06:44:38] So which is it? I. I keep hearing two things. That the Church is hunting season and, you know, Quentin Cook saying we need more disciplinary councils. Like more cowbell. More cowbell. More disciplinary councils. Holland, pick up your muskets. I'm hearing that, and then I'm hearing the Church doesn't do this anymore or they're going to just leave them alone. So my first question is, which is it?

Kyle Ashworth [06:45:01] Well, it's. It goes right back to how we started this episode. Is it a. Is it Oaks or is it Quentin L. Cook? Who do we listen to? Dallin H. Oaks or Quentin L. Cook because the messaging is completely different and, and that gets to the heart of this discussion. I know I have contact with people at 50 North Temple. When these happen, I have a phone number I can call and say, do you want the excommunication stopped? Do you want us to get involved? Because we can get involved. And typically the litmus, litmus test, litmus test in that situation is does this member want to remain an active member of the church?

Kyle Ashworth [06:45:34] And these, this stake president has been prepped and trained. He's, he's received some prior training because he asked the very same question members at 50 North Temple will ask me. Does this member want to remain a member of the church? Do they want to stay active? Do they want to have a connection to the church?

Guest [06:45:49] Church?

Kyle Ashworth [06:45:49] If the answer to that is yes, then often there will be a general authority who intervenes in that, that excommunication and makes sure it's stopped. Is that correct? Is that right? Absolutely not. We should be treating these all exactly the same. We should be on a foundation where it doesn't require a general authority or an apostle or a 70 to intervene to stop an excommunication just because somebody has influence or power or knows some, somebody else. That is absolutely not, not the right way of doing it. But unfortunately, that is how Mormonism is operating in this space. It is, it is. We've talked about Bishop Roulette, we've talked about stake President Roulette. If we have an uninformed, ill informed, unwell intended church leader who just doesn't understand this topic well enough, they're willing to do exactly what just happened in Idaho over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [06:46:36] And let's just be really clear. We all know how the church works. If, if the church wanted, wants to make a change or make an announcement, we all know how they do it. The first Presidency writes a letter, signs it, sends it to every unit in the church, and then what happens with that letter? Who wants to fill that in? It's implemented, it's read, it's read over the Right.

Kyle Ashworth [06:46:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [06:46:59] And I mean oftentimes. Right. Or it's put in the policy book when, when the books, policy books are printed out. So the first presidency could write a letter and say, option A, hey, cut that out. No more excommunicating same sex married couples. Leave them alone. That's one option they could do. They may not swear, but other than that, they could take that option. The second option could be, you know, whole disciplinary councils on all same sex married couples.

John Dehlin [06:47:27] But if they you know, still have beliefs or they still want to stay engaged, leave them alone. But if they reject the gospel or if they don't want to stay a member, then excommunicate them. That could be a second thing they do. Or a third thing they could do is, you know, you know, enforce the apostasy thing, which is hold a disciplinary council only if they've met the grounds for apostasy. You all know what the grounds for apostasy are. Did they meet the grounds for apostasy and they're in a same sex marriage, then excommunicate them. But at that point, it wouldn't matter whether they were in the same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [06:48:05] It would have been the apostasy that got him out. You know what I'm saying? But the point is, is they could make this crystal clear, universal, send it out to everyone, and. And that's it. Maybe they don't do that because they don't want that letter being shared.

Kyle Ashworth [06:48:19] That's not their position. That's not their intent. I think that's.

Gerardo Sumano [06:48:22] It was.

Guest [06:48:23] But what.

Gerardo Sumano [06:48:23] And I don't. I don't think there's unanimity in the quorum either.

Kyle Ashworth [06:48:26] Amen to that.

Brennen [06:48:27] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [06:48:28] I mean, so there's not unanimity enough on between Oaks and other apostles into what, how they're supposed to handle the situation. And that's why they haven't come up with something like that, which is why

Kyle Ashworth [06:48:38] I think it falls back to legacy. You have 50 years in Oaks's legacy of. Of just. Just bludgeoning the LGBTQ community. And in order for him to turn away from that, that would mean that his last 50 years of pushing this rhetoric was all for not. Yeah, And I don't think he's willing to do that.

Brennen [06:48:54] It seems like, I mean, Quentin L. Cook and Todd Christofferson, they're all on the side of not holding disciplinary councils for same sex marriages. But it doesn't seem like every apostle is on that same page.

Kyle Ashworth [06:49:08] And it's similar to when we serve missions. We had a senior companion and a junior companion. And the problem with the. That same hierarchy exists in the quorum. Of the 12 apostles, you have six apostles that are senior apostles and six that are junior apostles. And if that's true, what you're saying, Brennan, that it would take a Quintanelle Cook, and it'll take a Garrett Gong, and it'll take just some softer edges and any.

John Dehlin [06:49:31] But let's not go. Let's not be fool ourselves. Remember when Boyd K. Packer died and we're like, oh, the church is going to become much more loving now Boyd K. Packer died. Or oh, dallinate jokes helped start Dialogue magazine. When Dial Nature is in charge, then the church. Or oh, Elder Holland is the kind one. He's the compassionate one. He loves everybody. I remember Joanna Brooks one saying, Joanna Brooks once said to me, none of them are going to save us. Yeah, they're, they're. None of them are going to save us. Even if Uchtdorf is the silver fox and he's super loving and kind, give him enough time and he's gonna, he's gonna fail us and disappoint us too.

Guest [06:50:07] Forever.

John Dehlin [06:50:08] Maybe I'll be wrong.

Kyle Ashworth [06:50:09] I might be wrong for you to be wrong.

John Dehlin [06:50:10] Yeah, I mean, but, but history shows us once they rise to that top level of authority, they disappoint us time and time.

Kyle Ashworth [06:50:18] For every Oopdorf you have, you also have a Bednar. For every Quinton L. Cook you have, you're going to have.

John Dehlin [06:50:23] No, for every Oakdorf you have, you have an Ookdorf. That gets old and then disappoints us.

Douglas [06:50:28] You'll.

Gerardo Sumano [06:50:29] You'll be you Kyle is trying to be.

Brennen [06:50:34] I like it.

Kyle Ashworth [06:50:35] I even giggled.

Brennen [06:50:37] You will be. You'll be waiting around forever. And I think the reason why this happens is because you have an apostle who gets into that leadership position and then realizes everything else has happened in the past and they're gonna have to die on that hill because trying to unravel everything in the past is going to be so difficult. And if you try to unravel it or even scratch the surface, you're going to have people in the church leaving in droves.

John Dehlin [06:51:05] Yeah.

Douglas [06:51:06] Same with the mass and vaccine.

Kyle Ashworth [06:51:08] Oh yeah, that's exactly right.

Brennen [06:51:09] And, and so they, they can't, they can't even if they wanted to, even if Todd or Quentin Cook, if they became the senior apostle and then eventually the prophet of the church, if they were to do that, the members would complete. They, they would know everything and they would be exposed to all the lies and all the gaslighting and then that would be it. That would be the church. And so they're put in this position of we can't come out about it. We just have to keep up the ruse to, you know, hoping that these church members will stay with us and we can keep garnering their tithing to fund whatever operation we have in mind.

John Dehlin [06:51:45] Yeah, yeah. Because who wants to be the prophet that ruined the church?

Douglas [06:51:50] Exactly.

John Dehlin [06:51:50] And, and allowing same sex marriage. I think everybody would say you're Making this up at that point, they would just be like, you're making this up.

Brennen [06:51:58] Yep.

Douglas [06:51:59] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:51:59] And is the question now, is that inevitable? I mean, we're seeing mainstream Christian churches go through this very same. The Lutherans, the Episcopalians.

Douglas [06:52:07] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [06:52:08] These evangelical Christian churches are going through these growing pains. We have some that are orthodox that remain, some Southern Baptism Jehovah Witness congregations that are still remaining, remaining tight, shipped. But is that sustainable? And we also look at membership retention in those, those congregations. And we also see that those who become more most orthodox and hold these traditional beliefs are also those who are losing the most amount of members and that greater than natural attrition and loss of membership. So I don't, I don't think it's a winning strategy. I will still go on the record that I would never want to run a church. I would never have zero interest in being involved in the management of a organized religion. Wouldn't want to do it.

Brennen [06:52:53] Yeah.

Why the Church Pursues Excommunication

John Dehlin [06:52:54] MB writes, I still don't understand why the church doesn't just let these members walk away quietly. Why excommunicate? And I, I really do think if they're on the rolls, then the ward inevitably is going to look them up, go meet them, and, and then they have the threat of getting to know them.

Brennen [06:53:10] They still give them the option of quote unquote, walking away quietly in the form of resignation. But if, if he, if be right means walking away quietly, as in living your life free as you will without being set up by the church, then yeah, I agree. Why doesn't the church do that?

John Dehlin [06:53:26] What they could do is just park your records at Salt Lake and just stop, stop pushing every. Stop hounding people to find out their address, where they, they moved to stop hounding their parents and their family and neighbors to harass them to find out where they moved. Let, let the record just get sent. You know, if I want you to know where I'm moving, I'll freaking give you my address. If I don't give you my address, it's nya and freaking send the record to Salt Lake and just keep them all there in your little computer in Salt Lake. And then, and then your local members won't get infected. You won't get infected by the gay menace, you know, of, of a gay couple living in your ward, making your kids want to be gay.

Kyle Ashworth [06:54:08] And I think that's the part of the story that frustrates me the most. They, you can just, you can set on one, and I don't believe it, but you can set on one shelf over Here, the fact that they were not hunted because they were gay, we can set that off to the side and not address that. But they were hunted. They were literally. In this story, they were literally hunted. We had a bishop that was not their bishop, hadn't been their bishop for years and years and years who sought them out through whatever means necessary to find them and then bring them to this court and to try them and convict them for what?

Kyle Ashworth [06:54:43] What did he gain out of this? That, to me, is infuriating. That. And, and that goes to what you're talking about, John. We should never be in a position where we're hunting down people to expose them and to let them know that we're bigger than you and we have more authority than you. And because of that, we're going to get rid of you and move on with your life. Yeah, that's what frustrates me the most about this story.

John Dehlin [06:55:06] Yeah. Not just that, but to do it. But then to not be willing to admit you're doing it and to turn it back on them and say, well, it's because you didn't believe the right thing, or you. You posted that thing once on Facebook and it's really, really you. We're not doing it, but we're doing it, but. But it's your fault. You know what I mean?

Brennen [06:55:25] Yeah. It's.

John Dehlin [06:55:26] It's just insane. Kyle, for the eight or 12 that you're tracking, is this pattern reoccurring where. Where the leadership is is all nebulous and, and gamey about why the excommunications happen?

Douglas [06:55:44] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:55:44] So it does. Typically, it's interesting, some of them bishops will see something that's posted on social media and then they'll say they'll bring the. The couple in. Some of them are actively trying to participate in church. And I. I do see an interesting turn now that we're out of COVID or post Covid or navigating Covid. Now that. So some of these couples aren't going back to church yet, but they were participating in Zoom meetings. And so that is going to be a new bellwether. We need to see what cowbell is ringing at that point, because is now. Are now bishops looking at this, saying, well, they attended during Zoom. Now they're not attending in person, but they. But they were married still in both situations.

John Dehlin [06:56:25] Here's the thing, though. Dusty. Dusty Johns, who's. That's another episode we should put in the show notes. They were attending.

Gerardo Sumano [06:56:32] That's right.

John Dehlin [06:56:33] And that other couple in Logan that got super mad that I made a tick tock about them. They were attending.

Douglas [06:56:38] That's correct.

John Dehlin [06:56:38] And so the fact that they're asking you guys. Well, you don't even want to stay a member.

Douglas [06:56:42] You.

John Dehlin [06:56:43] You don't even want to attend. Well, they're. Guess what? They're excommunicating. Those who are attending are attending.

Gerardo Sumano [06:56:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [06:56:49] And who do still believe. Because the one couple that, that, that live in Cache Valley, they still believe.

Kyle Ashworth [06:56:55] Jeremy and Randy. Yeah, they still.

John Dehlin [06:56:57] They still believe. So they're just making up. I hate to swear, but they're just making it up.

Kyle Ashworth [06:57:02] It's.

Gerardo Sumano [06:57:02] Exactly.

Kyle Ashworth [06:57:02] And so they're doing the same thing that they've tried to do with these guys.

Brennen [06:57:05] They are.

Kyle Ashworth [06:57:06] They're now bringing them in or searching social media or waiting for something that they think they have enough evidence to move forward with a council. And then that. That way they can just get rid of them. And in some circumstances it's working. We just had one in. In Alabama that was a excommunication that the bishop just moved right through.

Kyle Ashworth [06:57:25] We have one where. Another one we're watching in Idaho, one down in southern Utah, we're watching. We've got one in Las Vegas. We have one in California. So it. Most. These aren't just Utah centric either. A lot of them that we saw in Utah have started to slow down and, And I think that has to do with a lot of exposure, a lot of sunlight that we're giving this topic. And I don't think bishops want to touch this. Bishops. I guarantee there's not a bishop in Zion that wants to be the subject of a Mormon Stories episode like this.

John Dehlin [06:57:54] This.

Kyle Ashworth [06:57:55] I can safely say if I were a bishop, I would not want to be the one who had their. Their councils recorded and then put on public display to show how what happens behind the scenes and what happens behind closed doors, because that's embarrassing for the church. You want to talk about defaming or. Or hurting the good name of the church, I think this bishop and that stake president contributed a great deal to hurting the name of the church, the good name of the church, by doing what they've done.

John Dehlin [06:58:22] Except it's the ch. It's the system, not the people. Because the truth is the church has these horrible. This hor. These horrible policies, this horrible system, this total lack of support. They want all the money, send all the money to us. We have all the power. But then all the blame goes down to that little bishop and stake president.

Brennen [06:58:42] Yeah, they might. They might be at the forefront, but they're. They're only enacted what they've been taught.

John Dehlin [06:58:47] Yep.

Brennen [06:58:48] And that's it.

Kyle Ashworth [06:58:49] But they're also responsible for their actions and their or their own actions.

Brennen [06:58:52] They are still responsible.

Kyle Ashworth [06:58:53] They should take. They have. We have given them plenty of opportunities to. To better understand this topic. The Internet is powerful. The I have hundreds of podcast episodes of written stories available. John's got dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of stories that also match. We can blame systems and I'm all on board for the systems versus people but we also have a personal responsibility to better understand the people around us. And if these leaders aren't doing it, what will it take for them to get there?

John Dehlin [06:59:22] Yeah. Well, one thing that would help would be media coverage because this is an outrageous example. And the trip won't cover these types of things. The Deseret News certainly won't cover these types of things. The news media is bored. They're like yawn. Oh, the Mormon Church is bigoted.

Kyle Ashworth [06:59:37] Another one.

John Dehlin [06:59:38] Yeah. Not a news story. And, and even the trip won't cover it. So like, like it. There's. We have no support from the news media. Yeah. Which is weird. Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [06:59:49] And the Desert News is going to agree. This doesn't exist.

Gerardo Sumano [06:59:51] Do you agree, Kyle, that this one

Brennen [06:59:53] was like a very.

Gerardo Sumano [06:59:55] A case that was kind of out there that's very dissimilar to the ones you've been looking at. Like someone that's, you know, we've talked about it a million times. Unendowed.

Brennen [07:00:06] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:00:06] This is a super, super unique case. But I also have some that some people who are very active on social media who have, who are social media influencers who are not touched. And I think the reasoning behind that is the church 100 does. And I think Gerardo's exactly it.

John Dehlin [07:00:23] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:00:24] And you're not alone. There are some who are these social media Instagram stars that have quite a following and the church does not want that painted the wrong way. So they completely avoid it altogether. And so the logical question would be is this. If this is the process the church goes through in handling same sex relationships, then why aren't they attacking the social media stars? Why aren't the they attacking those with influence? And this is why it got problematic for people in Idaho because Dusty was a radio dj. He was listened to by tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis basis in his career. And, and it was surprising to me that the church would go after a Dusty, a Dusty Bee for this very Dustin Johns for this very reason because of his notoriety and, and Publicity.

John Dehlin [07:01:08] Why don't they go after Steve and Barb Young? Stephen Barb Young absolutely believe that same sex marriage is good and healthy and should and should be legal. Isn't that enough grounds for apostasy? They were certainly asking you about that.

Brennen [07:01:22] I think the only reason why they're not actively going over or going for people with, with influence is because they know that if they don't do the process exactly right, they're, they're going to be called out for it because all these people with influence already have a following and I'm sure that these, these tiktokers on Instagram, they're not going to be abashed to tell everyone in the, they're following how terribly wrong the church is, you know, doing and, and even did so in their specific case when they were called to a disciplinary council. So I think, I think the church knows that if they try to go after them, it's going to be even worse because everyone will know then.

John Dehlin [07:02:04] Amen.

Kyle Ashworth [07:02:04] So when we originally talked and we can wrap this up, but the, the

John Dehlin [07:02:08] three options, it's only seven hours.

Kyle Ashworth [07:02:10] I know, I've been watching this.

John Dehlin [07:02:11] We got, we got one more hour to go.

Kyle Ashworth [07:02:14] So when, so when we were originally talking about the options that the church or church leaders have given these same sex couples, it was the, you divorce or separate or undo your marriage, you resign your membership or you face the council. I have a couple of these influencers who received letters from their bishops or stake presidents that also said and if you go public, you can, there's no reason for you to even consider attending a disciplinary council. We'll act on your behalf.

Gerardo Sumano [07:02:39] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:02:40] So if you put that out in the social media square, some of these stake presidents are trying to, to just stay ahead of that all together and just say even if you talk about it publicly, the fact that you are under investigation or being called into a council or, or discuss it on social media anywhere, then don't even worry about coming to a meeting, we'll just automatically kick you out. That's that, that is the state of affairs we're in.

Brennen [07:03:03] Right.

Closing Thoughts and Final Words

Brennen [07:03:03] What's our, what's our last, what's our last thought or closing thought?

John Dehlin [07:03:06] Well, I'll just say one thing. I've thought about this a lot because I got excommunicated, as I've said a gazillion times now. And I thought about it, the church, there's no good excommunication because in this scenario, number one, let's just say they're only excommunicating you because you're same sex married. Well, that's super bigoted and it's going to be a disaster for the Church if that's the public perception. So then they move to, okay, well, it's your beliefs. You have the wrong beliefs. But like we know that 40 of the membership doesn't believe that the Church is true. There's a gazillion members that don't believe a chunk of, of what the Church teaches now as doctrine.

John Dehlin [07:03:46] So beliefs alone can't be what gets you excommunicated. So then what they always go to, and this is what they did with me, it's about speaking publicly about your beliefs. But think about that for a second. You can have beliefs, but just keep them quiet and don't be honest and open about what you believe and don't believe. So you should, that's teaching you to hide or lie. And so there's, there's really no good

Brennen [07:04:07] and interrupting your, your freedom of speech, your right to freedom of speech.

John Dehlin [07:04:12] But also it's toxic to live with thoughts and beliefs and identities that aren't you. So this is a lose, lose, lose, lose for the Church. And that's why we cover it on Mormon stories. We're going to blow, bludgeon the Church, we're going to hold up a mirror and bludgeon the Church with their own dumb actions until the Church changes. We got them to change the name of these things. They're no longer disciplinary councils, they're, they're membership councils. We got them to change the name of the, the consequence, which is from excommunication to membership withdrawal. We're not going to stop.

John Dehlin [07:04:45] And so record your disciplinary councils, record your meetings with your bishops or stake presidents. All you have to do is bring your phone in, pull up voice memo, hit record, put your phone face down on the table so that they can't see the actual screen, Record the sucker, hit stop, Forward it to MormonStories gmail.com, let us know. And we are going to keep recording these things until if you need to, and it's a phone conversation, put them on speaker, have another phone there, hit record and record those conversations. Make sure it's legal in the state where you live, but we're going to keep exposing this garbage until it stops.

Douglas [07:05:27] I, I would say that if everyone just have the queries of these closed door meetings, the Church would be so much better. There would be way less abuse, there'll be way less molesting, there'll be way

Brennen [07:05:38] less of these physical cases just getting bodily abusers. Just getting by.

Brennen [07:05:45] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:05:45] And why put some fire underneath some of these bishops, stake presidents, and branch presidents to actually better understand this topic.

Gerardo Sumano [07:05:51] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:05:51] They may actually take the initiative to say, you know what I need. I need to figure out what to do, what is the right thing to do in this situation. And I think if they knew that there was a threat that they might be exposed. I think there are some bishops and stake presidents and other church leaders out there who would take the initiative to figure this out on their own and. And be far more compassionate and better understanding and careful. Yeah, I agree with that.

John Dehlin [07:06:12] So, Gerardo, what are your final thoughts? You're the one who kind of helped orchestrate all of this. We want to give you. Well, we're not gonna give you the last word. We'll give you the penultimate word. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [07:06:23] I mean, yeah, we hope the Church does better. Right. I think that's why we're exposing it. It's sad that the church often pins on people who are believers, you know, like the Logan couple, who are not really out there to expose their abuse and willing to just stay a little bit more quiet about it or not talk openly and honestly about how the Church mistreated them. But the church happened to, you know, target a couple here who was willing to speak out

John Dehlin [07:06:58] and.

Gerardo Sumano [07:06:59] But also give them the benefit of the doubt until the very last minute. So, yeah, we just hope the church does better. And, yeah, just like John, I encourage everyone to just record these meetings so the abuse stops.

John Dehlin [07:07:18] You know, that's a. That's a really good point.

Brennen [07:07:19] Is.

John Dehlin [07:07:20] Is how many of these happen that we don't know about that don't reach out to you, Kyle? That don't reach out to us, probably.

Guest [07:07:28] And who.

John Dehlin [07:07:28] Multiple of what's. Of what we. We know about and who would be

Kyle Ashworth [07:07:32] covering them if we weren't. If we weren't taking the initiative to show what. How much further would the Church push this topic if we weren't in these positions? If we didn't have microphones and platforms to do it?

John Dehlin [07:07:44] Not the Sally Tribune.

Kyle Ashworth [07:07:45] Nope. Nobody's doing it.

John Dehlin [07:07:46] Peggy Fletcher Stack. Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:07:49] Definitely not the Deseret News. Definitely not LDS Living. Definitely not the Church news. Nobody would. Nobody would handle this.

John Dehlin [07:07:55] Yeah. Not the blogger knle. Not the Mormon scholar community. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [07:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [07:08:01] Not even Sunstone.

Kyle Ashworth [07:08:04] Maybe Carden. He might do it.

John Dehlin [07:08:06] Carden and Quaken.

Douglas [07:08:08] Just kidding.

John Dehlin [07:08:10] Kyle, any last words before we give our guests the final.

Douglas [07:08:14] No.

Kyle Ashworth [07:08:15] Just want to thank our. Our big audience for hanging through and. And sticking with. With the seven hours. I think this is a pivotal and an important episode. And, and this was a lot. This was a lot. But I think methodically it was so well done in terms of, of just documenting how we, we've kind of flowed through here. And I think the other part of this that I wish more Latter Day Saints and more of those who are on the fringes or even far distant from the church. I wish more of us understood the history behind, behind the LGBTQ experience in Mormonism.

Kyle Ashworth [07:08:46] Now we mentioned earlier on about on the Record. I think that helps give us some better framework on understanding what this, what this topic really looks like at a real time level with, within Mormonism. And I encourage everyone to really fall down that rabbit hole because if you really want to understand why these bishops and stake presidents are doing what they're doing, you need to understand the pathway that has been paved for them on behalf of their church, church leaders. And, and through that pathway leads right through 50 North Temple or it is the Grand Central Station for where so, so much of this bigotry and, and prejudice belief and ignorance comes from.

Guest [07:09:22] It.

Kyle Ashworth [07:09:22] It really emanates from the, the heart of Mormonism. And I, I hope to change that. I hope just again, I, I don't want to, I don't want to create an, something recreate a renaissance or a different type of church church. I just want the church to stop harming its people. I want, I want the church to stop hurting other people. And I want to stop as a, as a gay man who has to live in this space, I want to stop wearing armor. I, I don't want to have to fear bullets and muskets and arrows on a daily basis. I just want to be able to not live in triage where we're constantly out there trying to rescue people.

Kyle Ashworth [07:09:58] And we can do it together, collectively, if we better understand how to meet the needs of, of the LGBTQ community. Because I guarantee you they will. They will make an infinite and important impact on your life if you will allow them to do that. And they will change you forever in a good way if you just better understand them. And that's my invitation to you and to the church as well. And I, and I hope that at some point they take advantage of that opportunity and see the people that they're kicking out because they're losing the best and brightest.

Brennen [07:10:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [07:10:28] Yeah. And I'll end as I did not begin by, by naming your podcast and YouTube channel correctly. It's latter gay stories. It's on YouTube. Support them. Donate. Kyle does all this kind of, of his own good free will, but when he gets financial support, it helps cushion the blow a little bit. And Jay's been a good partner. So donate to latter Gay stories, support them, subscribe to them, because it's a great work.

Guest [07:10:53] Work.

John Dehlin [07:10:54] It's a great work.

Guest [07:10:54] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [07:10:54] We kick out hundreds of episodes and. And we are constantly on the move, trying just to highlight a lot. We were behind the scenes in so much of this, and it's not the. All we want to do is just bring sunlight to this.

Douglas [07:11:07] You've.

Brennen [07:11:07] You've.

Kyle Ashworth [07:11:08] I think, effectively termed that sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. And I want to just bring more sunlight into this situation. I don't care for adulation or praise or. I just really want the LGBTQ community to. To have some better footing. If they're falling out of the church, I want to let them fall out and have a soft landing where they no longer have broken bones and they're not able to recover, but they can stand up and move on. I want them to be able to have happy, fulfilling, spiritual lives wherever that takes them. I. I don't want them to hate the church, and I don't want them to also feel like they're espoused to their abuser.

Kyle Ashworth [07:11:40] I just want them to be solid and. And that's why we do what we do. That's why we're spending seven hours on. On an episode discussing how this harms real people so that we can all together do better. But thank you for that plug.

John Dehlin [07:11:53] Thanks, Kyle. All right, you gentlemen get the last word?

Douglas [07:11:57] Yeah. I just want to start by just thanking you, John and Gerardo and Kyle, for giving us a platform for us to be able to voice our feelings, our thoughts, which was not felt during this whole process with the church leaders. I'm super grateful for. On the record. That was monumental for me to be able to figure out my stance and my beliefs with the church. And I think everyone should have a copy of it. And I hope that this will help people to understand that having your voice heard can really help showing that what the truth is, because there's so. The church is so rich and have so much bigger voices than most of the people it meets mistreat, that it could cover up literally anything, you know, and so just don't be afraid to speak up and be proud. Happy Pride Month, by the way.

John Dehlin [07:13:03] Yeah, that's so pretty beautiful, Doug. Thank you, Brendan.

Brennen [07:13:06] No, I agree with all of it, with all of that. We wouldn't be able to be here today and do as well as we did if we didn't have Gerardo's guidance or yours. Yours either, Kyle, and helping us see the situation for what it really is. I wanted to come here today to make sure that gay couples or gay members are not going to be persecuted anymore.

Brennen [07:13:35] But the.

Brennen [07:13:36] The sad thing is, is that we can't ensure that if. If you're a gay member wanting to pursue a family, wanting to get married, or just wanting to be a part of the church and live your life peacefully, you. You will be at risk for this. This kind of behavior wherever you may be. And. And I. And I wish I could tell you that otherwise. So, you know, be.

Guest [07:14:05] Be.

Brennen [07:14:06] Be cautious and. And be focused. And if you ever do get called to a council, record it and have patience with yourself and make sure to see. See the situation for what it is and really see through the weeds, because there's a lot of them.

Brennen [07:14:24] So thank you.

John Dehlin [07:14:26] Beautiful. All right, thanks, gentlemen. Thanks, viewers and listeners. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Love each other. Let's just celebrate love in all its forms. And I say these things in the name of Mormon stories. Amen. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.