In this episode, John and Gerardo dive into the fallout from a leaked audio clip of BYU Football captain and former Mormon missionary Tyler Batty’s fiery halftime speech, recorded outside the locker room at Mountain America Stadium in Tempe, Arizona. The speech, filled with explicit language, has sparked controversy, raising questions about BYU’s Honor Code, which strictly forbids profanity and vulgarity—yet Batty has faced no disciplinary action.
The controversy deepened when head BYU Football coach Kalani Sitake defended Batty, arguing that his actions were necessary for “helping the program.” Meanwhile, KSL, a media outlet owned by the LDS Church, dismissed critics, publishing an opinion piece telling people to “get over it” and rejecting calls for accountability. This apparent double standard has ignited a broader discussion about whether high-profile figures at BYU, particularly athletes, are given privileges that regular students—especially minorities and LGBTQ+ individuals—do not receive.
John and Gerardo break down past statements from LDS Church leaders, including clips from Elder Russell M. Nelson, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, and Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, who have all condemned profanity and emphasized the importance of upholding BYU’s moral standards. If the Honor Code applies to all students, why does it seem selectively enforced when it comes to a star football player?
The discussion also explores BYU’s history of religious exemption laws and its long-standing policies, including the prohibition of Sunday play. The show highlights real experiences from students who were harshly disciplined for much less than Batty’s actions—some even expelled for minor infractions. Through submitted stories, viewers hear firsthand how the Honor Code has been used against students in ways that feel disproportionately strict, particularly for those outside the mainstream LDS mold.
One of the key questions explored in this episode is whether BYU’s stance reflects a broader issue within Mormonism: the way male aggression, especially in sports, is often excused while other groups face rigid enforcement of rules. John and Gerardo examine whether Batty’s status as a returned missionary and team leader played a role in the leniency shown to him, in contrast to how BYU has historically treated students in less privileged positions.
The episode also delves into the ethical concerns surrounding the leaked recording itself. Was it wrong for someone—potentially an ASU security guard—to record and release it? Or does this exposure serve as an important window into the culture of BYU athletics?
As public debate around this incident grows, the conversation turns to the deeper implications for BYU, the LDS Church, and the broader Mormon community. Does this controversy highlight hypocrisy within the Honor Code system? Does it reveal an underlying shift in how BYU enforces its own standards? And what does it mean for students who have been disciplined or ostracized for far less?
Join us for this in-depth analysis as we unpack the many layers of this developing story and explore what it reveals about fairness, privilege, and institutional accountability at BYU.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-hosts: Gerardo Sumano, Samantha Shelley
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Episode Overview
John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It's December 5, 2024, and today we are here to talk about a recent byu. We're here to talk sports. And who else should we have to talk sports than Samantha Shelley? Welcome, Samantha Shelley.
Samantha Shelley [00:00:20] Thank you, John.
John Dehlin [00:00:20] She's our resident sports expert.
Samantha Shelley [00:00:22] I am.
John Dehlin [00:00:23] It's so good to have you.
Samantha Shelley [00:00:25] Yeah. When you were planning this episode, presumably 35 minutes ago, when you asked me to be here, was I your first choice or how far down on the list were we?
John Dehlin [00:00:34] Gerardo, what's the answer to that before you.
Samantha Shelley [00:00:36] Like, she'll yell about swearing a little bit on camera. People were like that.
John Dehlin [00:00:42] No, you were actually our first choice. I said no. Wait, what about in. What about in her own stories has
Samantha Shelley [00:00:47] gone to the dogs.
John Dehlin [00:00:50] We are here today to talk about a recent news story regarding BYU football and the BYU football team. The thumbnail says, leaked BYU football profanity tirade. We're going to get into what the story is about. Basically, a BYU football player was recorded swearing during a halftime of the BYU Arizona State football game. And we're not trying to stir up controversy. We're not trying to condemn this player for swearing. We're not anti swearing necessarily. We're not moral purists by any stretch.
Samantha Shelley [00:01:28] Gone this far without swearing. Wasn't that your whole thing? You've never said a swear word?
John Dehlin [00:01:32] Oh, no, I've said the F bomb on Mormon stories.
Samantha Shelley [00:01:34] Okay. Sorry.
John Dehlin [00:01:35] Should I say it now? No, I better not.
Samantha Shelley [00:01:37] If it. If you feel called to at any point.
John Dehlin [00:01:40] Not yet, but I may.
Samantha Shelley [00:01:41] But your comments might not like it.
John Dehlin [00:01:42] Yeah. No. But, yeah. You know, we're not here to be moral purists. We're not here to attack people, just to be clear. And we just got a comment like, this is not a newsworthy story. Why are you even covering it? But I think that viewer and listener doesn't understand why we're covering it. And. And Gerardo, this is something you felt passionately about and kind of your. You produced this episode. Is that right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:02:09] And let me just be clear. Is it because you're against swearing?
Guest [00:02:12] No.
Samantha Shelley [00:02:12] He always has said that.
John Dehlin [00:02:15] Is it because you want to embarrass this football player and shame him and. No.
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:19] No, not at all.
John Dehlin [00:02:20] And is it because you think that football players don't swear?
Samantha Shelley [00:02:23] Are you jealous of athletes?
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:26] No, neither.
BYU Honor Code and Institutional Hypocrisy
John Dehlin [00:02:27] Okay. All right, so. And you know, you can hold the suspense, but what do you want to say?
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:33] I'll say how this Came about. So you. It was like 12am in the morning. And John sent me a link.
John Dehlin [00:02:40] Are you saying I work at 12 midnight? Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:43] I mean, that's around the time you start working.
Samantha Shelley [00:02:45] Drag him.
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:48] And then it was a link to an X post which had a recording of a tick tock video that was actually deleted by that point. And the. The video was this recording outside of the locker rooms, but you could still hear, you know, the swearing and. And screaming from this football player, you know, with a lot of profanity. And. And during the halftime part of the football game in Arizona. And when I saw it, I was like, I mean, that. That I can. You know, what's the problem with that? Yeah, Like, I'm sure they're gonna feel bad about it and that it was made public, and I'm sure, you know, they're gonna sweep it.
Gerardo Sumano [00:03:33] Sweep it on the. Under the rug. And then I started reading the comments and then all these members that had, like, temple pictures, you know, on their Twitter accounts, and. And our cougar fans, they're like, saying, like, oh, who cares about profanity? This is football. It's in the. Like, it was on the. In, like, locker room talk. Who cares? And then I started thinking, well, to what point, you know, does that.
Gerardo Sumano [00:04:00] Do you stop that? Because, you know, thinking about all the people that I know who have been. Turned it into the honor code or have, you know, been caught by the honor code in things that they were thinking they were doing in private, but then they were kicked out of school or reprimanded because of some. Any kind of other type of behavior against the honor code, which any of those members who are justifying it for the football player would be, you know, against any other person, an LGBT person holding hands on campus with someone of their same sex. You know, I don't know. I just saw it. Very hypocritical. And then I kind of just went through the rabbit hole and that we're gonna go into here.
John Dehlin [00:04:41] And I woke up at like 3 or 4 to go to the bathroom, and Gerardo texts me and he's like, I can't go to bed. I'm gonna be. Because you. This really got you fired up because you went to byu, Idaho.
Guest [00:04:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:52] You were impacted by the honor code.
Gerardo Sumano [00:04:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:53] And you've always felt passionately about, I guess, hypocrisy.
Gerardo Sumano [00:04:57] Well, I was a hypocrite.
John Dehlin [00:04:59] Yeah, you were. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:05:02] Yeah. Because I. I got married because you
John Dehlin [00:05:04] married Zach as the BYU student.
Gerardo Sumano [00:05:07] But we had to keep it secret, you know, and we were terrified if we were, that we were found out. We were actually turned in twice to our bishop. So, I mean, luckily we were able to deny ourselves out of it. But anyway, so it was just kind of really interesting, the privilege and then how it became so public to the point where a news network owned by the church is defending the football player and the behavior against the honor code. You know, seeing it the other ways like this would never pass for other type of students.
John Dehlin [00:05:44] Yeah. So today's episode is kind of about hypocrisy. It's about double standards. It's exploring hypocrisy within the Mormon church, double standards within the Mormon Church, and kind of like selective caring about patriarchy. Patriarchy. Ooh, Samantha, you got to bring in down the patriarchy.
Samantha Shelley [00:06:02] Yeah. Why should we? Boom here. What am I here for?
John Dehlin [00:06:07] Patriarchy, Apparently. We'll find out why. And, yeah, just I guess the shifting culture In Mormonism, like BYU's now have Coke, like caffeinated Coca Cola. Like, the church is clearly becoming less strict about certain things. And so it's just a moment to explore. We're not here to condemn anyone. We're not here to, you know, punish BYU or make them their football team look horrible. We just think it'd be fun to talk about. So we're going to talk about it. All right, so thank you for everyone who's joining us on the live stream. We've already got a couple super chats. We're grateful for anyone who, you know, donates to Mormon stories in the Open Stories foundation because we couldn't do it without your support. Sam, you're with Z on the shelf. I'm sure you always appreciate support as well.
Samantha Shelley [00:06:56] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:06:58] So check out Samantha as well. But thanks to everyone who makes this show possible. Okay, so let's go ahead and dive in. Gerardo. Here is the homepage of the Washington Times, and it says Big 12. For those of you. Do you know what the Big 12 is, Samantha? I'm sure you do.
Samantha Shelley [00:07:18] Kind of like the 12 biggest, baddest boys teams in sports.
John Dehlin [00:07:22] The Big 12.
Samantha Shelley [00:07:24] In American football,
John Dehlin [00:07:26] the Big 12 is the. The athletic conference that BYU is now a part of. The University of Utah just joined it. It's kind of a big deal. BYU is predicted to be last or amongst the last in the Big 12 this year. I don't know if you. Sammy, I don't know if you know this, but for a long, long time, BYU is unaffiliated with any athletic conference because they kind of, like, got mad that University of Utah went to the PAC 12, which was a more prestigious conference, but BYU was left out. So they decided they would kind of be like Notre Dame and. And be independent of any athletic conference, and they did that, and it was not good for their program.
John Dehlin [00:08:04] So just recently, BYU and then University of Utah, once the Pac12 blew up, joined the Big 12. And so BYU was picked to kind of be last, and the University of Utah was picked to be first in the Big 12 this year. And the University of Utah sucked. And BYU was ranked first and undefeated for like the first seven or eight games.
John Dehlin [00:08:26] And so this Arizona State game that BYU was playing was actually a really important game because it was going to probably determine whether or not BYU would go to the college football playoffs. So it was a really big game. I was, you know, I was. I was on the edge of my seat to see how they do. They had lost one game by that point, but they ended up. I think they ended up losing the game, right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:08:44] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:08:45] Yeah. So that's a bummer. But anyway, so the Big 12 is the conference that. That BYU is a part of right now. And apparently they're investigating, not the swearing, but they're investigating the leaked video of the BYU football players explicit halftime speech.
Samantha Shelley [00:09:02] As they should.
John Dehlin [00:09:03] Yeah. Why?
Samantha Shelley [00:09:04] Well, I mean. So they've just recorded someone without their consent.
Gerardo Sumano [00:09:08] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:09:09] Yeah. I mean, that's up.
John Dehlin [00:09:10] Do we know if Arizona's. Did you just swear on a swearing podcast episode?
Samantha Shelley [00:09:15] Sorry, I'm trying to help you join people from all sides of the spectrum.
John Dehlin [00:09:18] It's diversity. It's language diversity. I like it. No, I'm kidding. You can swear because I'm the patriarch and I can get permission.
Samantha Shelley [00:09:26] It's just so nice to get that kind of.
John Dehlin [00:09:30] Where were we? I'm. I'm lost. Where were we?
Gerardo Sumano [00:09:32] So the Washington Times covers a story, and that's kind of where my journey started.
John Dehlin [00:09:36] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:09:37] Gerardo's journey with a. Oh, wow. Like, this is being covered by the media. And that article had several quotes from interesting BYU personalities defending the football player. But let's not start there. I think we should start with some interesting general authority quotes. We'll follow.
John Dehlin [00:09:57] We'll follow the prophet, right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:09:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:00] So, of course, the very first slide Gerardo comes up with is one of Russell and Nelson.
Samantha Shelley [00:10:03] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:04] BYU. All of this that we're going to show are speeches given by prophet seers and revelators at byu.
John Dehlin [00:10:10] And for our never Mormon listeners, who's this homeboy that they're seeing right now on the screen?
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:14] He's the current President of the church, prophet, seer, and Reverend.
John Dehlin [00:10:19] Yeah. So he's God's special mouthpiece on the earth for the world. Not just for our church, but for the world.
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:24] Is that right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:25] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:10:25] So we want to hear what he has to say about swearing.
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:27] Let's hear it.
Church Leaders on BYU Standards and the Honor Code
John Dehlin [00:10:28] All right, here's Rusty.
Samantha Shelley [00:10:30] Is it about the word Mormon?
John Dehlin [00:10:33] That's also.
Guest [00:10:37] Language has the power to inspire and edify. You have the potential to speak with the tongue of angels. Start by speaking kindly of others. Don't be vulgar or profane. And for exciting new opportunities in life, study the language of people in lands
John Dehlin [00:10:59] other than your own. Yes, Sammy. Don't be vulgar and profane.
Samantha Shelley [00:11:03] I know he's got some good, very. Four agreements of him back then.
John Dehlin [00:11:08] I heard. What's your point with that? With that clip?
Gerardo Sumano [00:11:11] Yeah. I mean, just to show that this is something that prophets care about and teach, and not just to the general memberships of the church, but they're teaching it directly at BYU schools.
John Dehlin [00:11:22] Yeah. And a general conference like this is a. Swearing is a big deal. I grew up not swearing.
Guest [00:11:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:11:27] Yeah. And it's. I actually swear now as a way to kind of deprogram my conditioning. And Margi does, too. Do you know Margi sometimes says the F bomb? Can you imagine?
Samantha Shelley [00:11:36] Love to hear that. And have it injected directly into my veins when I'm just having a moment.
John Dehlin [00:11:42] It's so cute to see Margi swear. It's cute.
Guest 2 [00:11:44] Anyway.
John Dehlin [00:11:45] All right, let's see. Actually, my children who have struggled with recovering from Mormon conditioning, told us that it would be healing for them to hear us swear in all seriousness, because it would help them decondition the intensity of our upbringing, which was pretty intense, honestly.
Samantha Shelley [00:12:08] Yeah. I loved it. They picked up on that.
John Dehlin [00:12:11] So we swear for our children, basically.
Samantha Shelley [00:12:12] That's.
Guest [00:12:13] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:12:13] That's good parenting.
John Dehlin [00:12:14] All right. This looks like. Spence. Debbie Kimball.
Samantha Shelley [00:12:17] Right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:12:17] Gerardo. No, this is going to be Elder Oaks, I believe.
John Dehlin [00:12:20] Oh, okay. Kimball just did that. Yeah. All right, let's hear Oaks. He's also in the First Presidency. That. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:12:27] First counselor of the first president.
John Dehlin [00:12:29] Number two top Mormon leader in the world.
Guest [00:12:31] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:12:31] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:12:31] See what Oaks has to say.
Guest [00:12:34] Because integrity, which is the willingness and ability to live by our beliefs and commitments, is one of the foundation stones of good character. And without good character, one cannot hope to enjoy the presence of God here or in the eternities. In this institution, students and faculty commit themselves explicitly to abide by a code of conduct which includes both living by the moral precepts of the gospel and Conforming to a dress and grooming code. Some purport to accept the moral standards as important and denigrate the other as trivial and as intruding on their freedom of choice, but they fundamentally misperceive the question. The question is not whether the dress and grooming code is wise, but whether they should consider themselves bound by a promise.
John Dehlin [00:13:44] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:13:45] So this was an interesting quote, and props to Julia for finding these. But this one's talking about the idea of integrity, you know, which I think Mormonism would. Would teach that you should be same person and leave the command. Leave the commandments of. Of the church. Whether you're in public or in private, and it doesn't matter where you are, you should be the same. And he's talking about the honor code specifically, you know, and why BYU has the honor code.
John Dehlin [00:14:16] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:17] This was important because I saw a lot of the comments defending the behavior or, you know, the viol. I should call it the violation of the honor code as well. This was in a private setting, so it doesn't really matter.
John Dehlin [00:14:31] He also seems to be associating the honor code with, like, being in the Lord's presence in the hereafter. Right. I mean, that's. That's pretty high stakes. Right. Right. I mean, I guess saying if how you dress and how you speak will help determine whether you go to Mormon heaven. Right. Celestial kingdom. Did I take that too far?
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:52] I think that's what he's saying.
John Dehlin [00:14:53] Okay, Samantha.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:55] Okay. All right, so now if that weren't enough, you've got Jeffrey Elder Holland.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:14:59] He's the acting president of the quorum of the 12. So he's, like, the number four.
Gerardo Sumano [00:15:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:04] Leader in the church. What. What do you want to say about this?
Gerardo Sumano [00:15:08] Well, this is. Was. This is an interest. I think a lot of our listeners would know where this.
John Dehlin [00:15:14] Wait, is this the musket speech? Okay. This is the musket speech.
Gerardo Sumano [00:15:17] All right. Do you want to. Do you want to talk a little bit about it?
John Dehlin [00:15:20] Oh, this is just when he pissed off the whole world, Mormon world, and ex Mormon world by. By basically telling BYU professors and faculty that they need to grab their muskets and defend the church. Whistle, dog whistling. That we need more opposition to LGBTQ support. Yeah, right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:15:40] Totally.
John Dehlin [00:15:40] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:15:40] And not only did he not backtrack what he said because of the uproar, but now BYU has made it a curriculum, a mandatory curriculum for all BYU students to study this talk in one of. In a mandatory class for all students.
John Dehlin [00:15:58] Yeah. And he got destroyed. He got. He got disinvited. From. I think from like a university commencement speech, basically. I mean, he said they ended up saying he was sick and he was sick, but really there was a student uproar saying, we don't want this guy speaking at SUU S. Suu. Thank you. Because he. He's a bigot. Yeah. Yeah, he.
Samantha Shelley [00:16:24] In recent. I don't know, months yet, didn't he say softly that he regretted it a bit or something? Just that, you know, he felt some kind of emotion, allegedly?
John Dehlin [00:16:35] Yeah, I mean. I mean, he was slapped. I hate to use that term, but he was beat down. So. Anyway, let's hear what he has to say.
Gerardo Sumano [00:16:42] Let's hear it.
John Dehlin [00:16:43] All right,
Guest [00:16:45] I said then and I say now that if we're an extension of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and take a significant amount of sacred tithes and other human precious resources, all of which might well be expended in other worthy causes, surely our integrity demands that our lives be absolutely consistent with and characteristic of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. At a university, there will always be a healthy debate regarding a whole syllabus full of issues. But until we all come to the unity of the faith and have grown to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, our next best achievement will be to stay in harmony with the Lord's anointed, those whom he has designated to declare church doctrine and to guide Brigham Young University as its trustees.
John Dehlin [00:17:47] Lots of words. What was he saying?
Samantha Shelley [00:17:50] Listen to me.
Gerardo Sumano [00:17:52] Yeah, and this idea that. I mean, I. I went to BYU Idaho. Sam went to BYU Idaho. But you're constantly reminded that your education is being paid by tithe tithing dollars and that that's one of the reasons why the standards are higher. And you're. Hold to it. You're. You're held to a higher standard than people in other universities. And that's kind of what he's saying. He's. He's even saying BYU is an extension of the church.
John Dehlin [00:18:21] Yeah. Yeah.
Guest [00:18:22] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:18:23] And you've got another clip here.
Gerardo Sumano [00:18:24] Yeah, just one more from him.
John Dehlin [00:18:26] Okay, let's roll that.
Guest [00:18:28] In his discourse, President Kimball used the word unique eight times and special eight more times. It seems clear to me in my 73 years of loving it that BYU will become an educational Mount Everest only to the degree it embraces its uniqueness, its singularity. We could mimic every other university in this world until we get a bloody nose in the effort, and that world would still say BYU who? No, we must have the will to be different, to stand alone. If Necessary being a university, second to none in its role primarily as an undergraduate teaching institution. That is unequivocally true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
John Dehlin [00:19:32] Yeah, so he's really amping up the. The stakes there. What'd you think, Sammy?
Samantha Shelley [00:19:36] I mean, yeah, that's. When you're at a church school, it's very much equating every single little arbitrary rule at that church school with your salvation. They really. They make sure, you know that there's no separation between them.
John Dehlin [00:19:51] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:19:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:19:52] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:19:52] And just a reminder that this is the same talk where he said, if we are unable to keep, you know, if we're forced to accept LGBT or same sex romantic behavior in the school, let's not even talk about sexual behavior, just romantic behavior. We would rather close the university or, like, something around those lines. Kind of like we'd rather use or lose all of our federal funding and, you know, if. If we were forced not to follow the standards of the church.
John Dehlin [00:20:23] I'm reminded by our series with. With Dr. Matt Harris and Second Class Saints. Sammy, I don't know if you heard about this book, Second Class Saints, and the. Dr. Matt Harris wrote a book called Second Class Saints, Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. And in the book, he talks about, like, in 1969, the IRS was investigating BYU for violating. For being racist and not allowing. There's, like, two black students in all of BYU and no athletes. No black athletes as late as 69, 70. And so they were going to punish the church. The IRS was. And I don't know, somehow it got. The report got brought to, like, Carol B. Lee or whatever. And he literally said, I'd rather shut the university down than allow a black athlete at byu.
Samantha Shelley [00:21:10] That's the spirit.
John Dehlin [00:21:11] Just towed to the end. So, I mean, that. That shows what type of similar resolve existed decades ago.
Gerardo Sumano [00:21:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:20] And then how. Of course, fungible or. Or flexible, that is, depending on the. The changing times. Right.
Samantha Shelley [00:21:26] Yeah. Because they're also like, if polygamy ever goes away, God's gonna remove the priesthood. No one's gonna be able to have it. And then they're like, actually, no, it's okay.
John Dehlin [00:21:33] Yeah. So times change. But now, now it's not black people. It's. It's gay people, basically. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's the. The line in the sand that the brethren have drawn. So.
Gerardo Sumano [00:21:49] Yeah.
BYU's Sunday Play Policy and Religion in Athletics
John Dehlin [00:21:49] Okay, so you've got a slide on the Sunday play policy, Gerardo.
Gerardo Sumano [00:21:55] Yeah. So this was interesting because I was looking at the byu. This is the BYU Cougars website. So this is about the BYU football team.
John Dehlin [00:22:05] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:22:06] And they have this kind of like FAQ's question and a questionnaire where they're responding to some questions. One of them is what is the Sunday play policy or BYU rule? And basically what it's saying, I mean, you can put it on the screen. I don't think it's necessary to read the whole thing, but basically what it's saying is that the NCAA has a written policy against competition a particular day for religious reasons. So it. It allows schools like BYU to be exempt from having to play on Sundays. So this is kind of like how far they're willing to take, you know, their. Their religious liberty kind of talk into, you know, making organizations like the NCAA make concessions for them because of their religious beliefs that are super important. You know, because we're different, we are special, and we are diff. You know, like Jeffrey Alhan said, we. We gotta. We ought to be unique.
John Dehlin [00:23:12] Yeah, I'm trying to. So does. Is this in effect, do BYU athletes not play on Sunday? As far as.
Gerardo Sumano [00:23:17] That's. That's what. Because on the online, I was seeing comments that people said that they do, but that's what I saw on the website today.
John Dehlin [00:23:25] I'm unsure if y' all in the comments want to let us know. Julia, maybe you can star any comments that give us some updated information on whether that rule is still in effect.
Gerardo Sumano [00:23:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:35] But let's jump to the BYU honor code.
Gerardo Sumano [00:23:38] Yeah. And this is. This is not from the honor code website, but this is from the football team website, BYU Cougars.
John Dehlin [00:23:46] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:23:47] And it has this. A couple paragraphs about the honor code. Do you want to read them?
John Dehlin [00:23:52] Yeah, it says. I'll just read the second paragraph. Initiated by students in 1949 by students. The honor. Oh, so the students. Students were demanded. These students demand. Please, no leggings in the testing center. They're making me uncomfortable. We need an honor code. BYU. Okay. Initiated by students in. In 1949, the honor code is a matter of personal commitment to values such as honesty, living a chaste and virtuous life, obeying the law, abstaining from alcohol and tobacco, using clean language, and adhering to other values encompassed in the doctrines of the church. So our. Is swearing is profanity, literally in the honor code?
Gerardo Sumano [00:24:34] Yeah, so it's more explicit in the actual honor code.
John Dehlin [00:24:36] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:24:37] But it's.
John Dehlin [00:24:37] Are we gonna have a screen?
Gerardo Sumano [00:24:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:24:40] Okay.
Guest 2 [00:24:40] And.
John Dehlin [00:24:41] And by the way, can I just tell. I told you my story earlier. Can I tell you my story? Yeah. So a couple. A couple things. So I I'm just gonna say, like, okay, yes, highfalutin language about the honor code. And BYU is different and the, the church is morally superior. Like, okay, we all kind of know that. We've now reviewed it for never Mormons.
John Dehlin [00:25:02] The reality has always been different. So when I was at BYU from 87 to 93, I had a couple interesting interactions with athletes. One was I was a. A tutor for American Heritage, which was a required history and political science class for BYU students. I was an American Heritage tutorial to BYU athletes. And it was a known reality that, like BYU athletes, male athletes would live with their girlfriends. They would be sexually active with their girlfriends, but they would have arrangements where, you know, they could be sexually active. But it wasn't enforced. And part of that was because for. Especially for some of the specialty positions, BYU has to recruit from non Mormon.
John Dehlin [00:25:46] They do a lot of recruiting from California, you know, African Americans from California and Texas, honestly. And those dudes aren't going to come to BYU and abstain from sex. They're just not. Or other things. And so the BYU athletic program has always had this double standard. Same with academics, like, you know, helping players pass classes when they don't meet academic standards. So I saw it. I tutored BYU football players that lived with their girlfriends.
John Dehlin [00:26:16] And, you know, it was. It was. Eyes were turned, heads were turned, and it wasn't enforced. We also know, we've had people on Mormon stories, women who had sex with BYU athletes who were kicked out of BYU for having sex with the BYU male athlete. And the BYU male athletes were allowed to continue being male athletes as BYU students. Is that where the patriarchy starts to come in, Samantha, or is that just one example?
Samantha Shelley [00:26:43] Yeah, I mean, there's patriarchy in there. And also just that classic thing in high control groups where people that are high up who, you know, add this really high value to the group. Yeah. The leaders will turn a blind eye to that.
John Dehlin [00:26:58] Yeah. Because. Because football programs that are successful bring in millions and millions of dollars to a university and a lot of publicity and recognition.
Samantha Shelley [00:27:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:08] So if the church is best conceived as a corporation, money and power speaks. The football team is the most enriching and powerful program in all of byu, including all the academics. So people associated with it are going to get a pass. Is that what's going on?
Samantha Shelley [00:27:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:24] Okay. The other thing I just thought was a really funny story, Samantha, you might find this interesting. So I. I went to high school in Katy, Texas, suburb of Houston, and my best friend Chad McMillan in high school, six, six, like £350, huge guy. He became an offensive lineman at the University of Texas. And ironically, the same year I was a freshman at byu, Chad played for the University of Texas football team. And in the fall of 1987, University of Texas played BYU. And shocking to the SEC fans of today, BYU beat University of Texas in the fall of 1987, which probably wouldn't happen today. University of Texas is a top 10 program. Anyway, when I was kind of lightly rubbing it in Chad's face, my friend Chad's face, the BYU beat University of Texas, he said something to me that really blew me away. Samantha, do you want to guess what he said?
Samantha Shelley [00:28:21] I have no guess.
John Dehlin [00:28:22] He said, john, BYU is the most foul mouth football team that, that, that, you know, in college football. And I know that sounds ridiculous and it probably sounds too ridiculous for today's episode because I, I, I have no reason to believe that's actually true. But I'm not making that story up. That's what my friend.
Samantha Shelley [00:28:43] Ridiculous.
John Dehlin [00:28:44] Well, I do. I, I mean, think about it. Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, New York, California. Like, why would BYU football players have the most foul mouths of like all college football?
Samantha Shelley [00:28:57] Because they're coming from the background of repression. And they are kind of this select group within the group that gets to engage in this behavior. And it's kind of, for a lot of the Mormon players, it's like they're probably their one outlet for being bad. So it makes sense that they would kind of go wild with that.
John Dehlin [00:29:14] So kind of like the reason why maybe Utah might lead the nation in per capita porn use.
Samantha Shelley [00:29:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:29:20] Is because all the men are told not to look at pornography and because of that repression, they do it more. Are you saying that that might be what's going on?
Samantha Shelley [00:29:27] Yeah, the forbidden is more appealing, but they get, there's this weird loophole they get to enjoy, which probably makes them feel powerful.
John Dehlin [00:29:33] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:29:34] In another, in a system that is very controlling, you know.
John Dehlin [00:29:38] So I'm not saying that's true about byu. I suspect it's not true. But I am saying my friend Chad told me that and he played byu.
Samantha Shelley [00:29:45] I always trusted Chad personally. So I think we can kind of run with that.
John Dehlin [00:29:50] Trust Chad. I got it. All right. New hashtag. All right, so go ahead.
Gerardo Sumano [00:29:54] I did want to say something. There was a comment, I might have lost it. But someone's saying, like, to be fair, you know, other universities also asked not to play on Sunday, so BYU doesn't get any special treatment there. I don't think that's totally the point that we were Trying to make. But I did want to say as I was driving over here at the studio, I was thinking about this. BYU has been central in a lot of laws that are.
Gerardo Sumano [00:30:20] Have. That have to do with religious exemptions and, you know, religious liberty. And it has all started with BYU trying to either be bigoted towards minorities, such as black people or LGBT people, when. Or even women and gender. So if you go back to when the title 9 was passed, which is supposed to protect women from discrimination, when or it originally was passed by Congress in the United States, it did not have any religious exemptions. And then it was Elder Oaks, who was the president of BYU at the time, who basically, if I remember their story correctly, he sent letters to Congress saying kind of like that it was.
Gerardo Sumano [00:31:10] It was ridiculous that there was no religious exemption for this law and for religions that had that consider, you know, the distinctions between gender as essential doctrinally. So it was because of Elder Oaks push that I think the following year, Congress passed, like, really explicit and broad religious exemptions for Title 9. So BYU has been at the forefront of passing laws that allow them to. To keep either bigoted or discriminatory practices today. So because of, you know, their religious beliefs or this idea of wanting to stay unique. So it's. It's just a little bit hypocritical, you know, to give certain things a pass and. But also enlightening to see where the church wants to focus their attention and efforts in, you know.
John Dehlin [00:32:02] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:02] Nailing people down.
John Dehlin [00:32:03] Yeah. Well, that's a good segue to the actual clip. So now, Gerardo, what we have is the clip of Tyler Baddie, and we're gonna explore.
Tyler Batty's Halftime Tirade and Public Reaction
Samantha Shelley [00:32:12] She's swearing.
John Dehlin [00:32:13] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:32:14] I didn't know we were gonna get to watch it.
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:15] It's bleep, though.
John Dehlin [00:32:16] Yeah. So Gerardo. Zach told Gerardo that we should bleep out the swear words. So the swear words are bleeped out. We do have the uncensored version. We can play that for you if you want, Samantha. But I think it's funnier to hear bleeped, frankly.
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:30] They can read it. If you watch the video, it's on the caption.
John Dehlin [00:32:34] But we're not. We're not calling out Tyler Batty. We're not saying he's a bad person. We're not trying to shame or embarrass him.
Samantha Shelley [00:32:40] His last name is Batty?
John Dehlin [00:32:42] Yeah. Batty? Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:32:44] Really?
John Dehlin [00:32:44] Yeah. And I think he's a defensive end, and I think he's one of the captains of the football team. So. So basically, it's Halftime. BYU is getting schlocked by. Is that a word by. By Arizona State University. And so he's screaming at the players
Samantha Shelley [00:32:59] saying pull your axe together because he's the head.
John Dehlin [00:33:02] He's like a, he's a team captain.
Samantha Shelley [00:33:04] Okay, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:06] So this isn't a coach, this is a player.
Samantha Shelley [00:33:07] Right.
John Dehlin [00:33:08] So we're gonna now hear a edited bleeped version of Tyler Batty's tirade at halftime of the BYU Arizona State football game. So let's roll the clip. We did too much. We work too hard.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [00:33:32] We were
Video Clip 1 [00:33:36] doing out there, man. What are the guys around you? We sacrifice. How about you guys care about this? So why are we doing it right now, man? Look, we got 30 minutes,
Video Clip 1 [00:34:17] man. For me.
John Dehlin [00:34:18] Well, that could be pretty much the last 20 minutes of my career here. That's how much it means. That's how you guys want to go to a championship. 30 minutes of our best football game is going to take you look at. Everything I've got. I'm going give you everything I've got for the next 30 days minutes. I a gna complain. I'mma play my heart out. I don't care if they got me off the field at the end of this game. All right, Sammy, what's your. That's the first time you've heard that.
Samantha Shelley [00:35:06] He seemed really upset. He seemed really upset. Not a Ted Lasso in sight to reign him in. Just unchecked. I mean he's feeling the weight of losing, losing the game and I, I couldn't imagine myself being able to put myself in his shoes and not being hard.
John Dehlin [00:35:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess he must be a senior. So this might be the last game of his career. So he feels passionately about it.
Samantha Shelley [00:35:32] He's sort of just yelling generally. Right. Not to one person in particular.
Gerardo Sumano [00:35:35] To the team.
John Dehlin [00:35:36] It sounds like it's to the team.
Guest [00:35:37] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:35:38] Seems like that's how I imagine sports being in the dress. I mean that.
John Dehlin [00:35:42] Yeah. Like that's part of the tradition is half, half time. Rally the troops.
Samantha Shelley [00:35:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:47] And get them excited to play. You know, totally normal. Probably happens in every, every halftime football game.
Samantha Shelley [00:35:55] But it's like use that, you know, take it onto the pitch.
John Dehlin [00:35:58] Yeah. Well, let me ask you this, like what do we think about the person who recorded it? Like if. Is that. Was that a lame thing to do for somebody to record it?
Samantha Shelley [00:36:07] 100%. Yeah, that's.
John Dehlin [00:36:09] What if it's legal? What if it, what if Arizona is a two party state? I guess, I guess that would violate the two party rule because at least one of the. He wasn't a party. I'm assuming it wasn't someone who was in that conversation. So it would be illegal even if it was a two party state because you're recording someone without their consent and it's not a conversation you're a part of. That's what two party.
Samantha Shelley [00:36:31] Well, as it's kind of a. But it's. To a group, it's private. Just because even if it is legal.
John Dehlin [00:36:38] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [00:36:38] That doesn't make it moral.
John Dehlin [00:36:39] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [00:36:39] I think that's someone who's clearly in like a private moment is very triggered and like I assume sports that you're getting very. He seems very dysregulated. You know, he's got. You have to really put your whole heart into sports. I always. I'm hearing and he's not doing well. I just think to record someone in an intimate moment like that without their consent is shitty. You shouldn't do that.
John Dehlin [00:37:00] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [00:37:00] And. And look. What? Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:02] All right.
Samantha Shelley [00:37:03] Like the, the swearing and the double standard, that that's kind of a, a separate issue. But non consensually recording someone in a private moment, whether or not I sort of like agree with the vibe.
John Dehlin [00:37:14] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:37:14] You know, just.
Guest 2 [00:37:16] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:37:16] I think it's questionable.
John Dehlin [00:37:18] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:37:20] It was. I think I would feel a lot stronger that the way Sammy, you're describing it if he, if this guy was like in the locker room or had like intentionally. But if you're on the hallway and you can hear the screen.
Samantha Shelley [00:37:32] Oh, he's in the hallway.
Gerardo Sumano [00:37:33] Yeah, he's on the hallway. So you can hear the screams of like privacy. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:38] So here's a question that's probably obvious.
Gerardo Sumano [00:37:40] So you could see people walking by where you. Where the person was.
John Dehlin [00:37:43] So this may be obvious to you all, but I think it's worth asking. Why would anyone. I guess we could assume it was an Arizona State fan or employee or employee that did this and not a BYU fan? I don't know that we know that. But let's just assume it's an Arizona State fan or employee because they're, they're in a restricted area, so it's likely an employee. Why would they think let me record a BYU screaming profane tirade and then put it on the Internet. What would be the possible motivations for that?
Samantha Shelley [00:38:18] I mean, obviously it's more salacious to hear a BYU player swearing and, and ranting like that, but I do feel like in our digital media landscape it's kind of people's heads are pretty warped in terms of like they see Someone having an extreme reaction in public, an intense emotional reaction, and they just. It's kind of normal to film it because, you know, it's gonna, you know, get views, be captivating to people on social media, which is something I think about a lot. I just don't really like that we as a society lately don't have a lot of, like, boundaries with each other in terms of, like, filming people in public. Yeah. It might technically be legal, but it's like, is that moral? Is it ethical?
John Dehlin [00:38:58] But what's the Mormon angle? Because I. I can't imagine that a BYU employee would stand outside of an Arizona State locker room and record a player swearing and then put it on the Internet. So why would a presumably Arizona State employee want to do that to byu?
Samantha Shelley [00:39:16] So that's what I'm saying is it may not be motivated by the fact that it's BYU to us. I mean, that's kind of the interesting angle is the hypocrisy. Right. Because, you know, Mormons are known for not swearing. But it's also possible that they were just like, oh, look at this person wilding out.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:30] I think it was religiously motivated. Like, I mean, not that the person that recorded was religious, but trying to, like, the intention was to show these guys are supposed to be Mormons and look at what they're doing. I think that was intention just based on the caption that was put on Tick Tock.
Samantha Shelley [00:39:51] So he posted it on Tik Tok.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:53] I believe the person that recorded it.
Guest 2 [00:39:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:39:55] I'll just. I'll say I think it's lame. I. I wouldn't. I don't care if. If there's a Jewish person eating a hot dog. I wouldn't want to film that and put it on the Internet.
Samantha Shelley [00:40:05] Exactly. We all deserve to be hypocrites.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:07] That's a lot of things. There's a lot of things around it. If you know that these gu. Are the guys that, you know, are holding themselves up for being religious and not playing on Sundays and thinking that they're better than everybody else because they follow the Lord's, you know, Sabbath and then. But then behind the scenes, they're doing this, you know.
John Dehlin [00:40:29] No, I know.
Samantha Shelley [00:40:29] Yeah. It's understandable. It's a natural consequence.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:32] It's not the same as, like, you're saying, John, like sample, you're saying about a Jewish person.
John Dehlin [00:40:37] Oh, because Jewish people wouldn't be lording their diet.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:40] Right.
John Dehlin [00:40:41] Restrictions over everyone else.
Guest [00:40:43] Right.
John Dehlin [00:40:43] As if they're better than people.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:45] Right.
John Dehlin [00:40:45] You're saying.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:46] Yeah. And the football team is supposed to represent, you know, is the pinnacle of the representation of the church in, in sports.
John Dehlin [00:40:54] Okay. So Jewish leaders wouldn't say that dude who ate the hot dog represents our.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:40:59] The best ideals of our church.
Samantha Shelley [00:41:01] Just simply to play devil's advocate. Mormons aren't trying to make it so that other people can't swear necessarily, though it's a bit of a in between one for me.
John Dehlin [00:41:10] I guess it's just, it's just when you try and hold a moral high
Samantha Shelley [00:41:13] ground, this is a natural of being so pious. Like, of course someone's going to record you if you're then being that hypocritical.
Gerardo Sumano [00:41:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:22] Do you think the church in 2024 comes off as arrogant and morally pious? Yeah. You think so?
Gerardo Sumano [00:41:28] I mean this, this speech by Elder Holland was given just a, a couple, a few years ago and I'm telling you, just a year ago he was put as a, as mandatory curriculum for all students.
John Dehlin [00:41:40] No, no, no, I know that's internal though. I'm saying to the world, because I'm assuming this ASU employee was. Is not Mormon.
Gerardo Sumano [00:41:47] I see.
John Dehlin [00:41:47] Would they feel like those prick Mormons, they always think they're better than everybody. You know what I mean? Or do Mormons in 2024 come off as sort of prudish, morally superior people or do they come off as chill, open, relaxed, nonjudgmental people? That one.
Samantha Shelley [00:42:05] I mean, the Moomin judge as an organization is like affecting laws. Like they really are putting their purity complexes onto, you know, you can't watch pornhub in Utah now.
Gerardo Sumano [00:42:18] Right.
Samantha Shelley [00:42:18] You know, the Mormon church has been part of that effort. Like there are. It certainly is like very. I mean, it's arrogant and it's pious and self righteous to think that you as a American religious organization have the right to go and you know, try and with whether gay marriage gets legalized in Mexico and stuff like. That's the audacity of them, you know.
John Dehlin [00:42:40] Okay. So as soon as the church starts trying to tell other people what they can and can't do by influencing the law.
Samantha Shelley [00:42:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:42:48] Like in Prop 8 in California or if they write an amicus brief opposing transgender rights or whatever, which they are.
Gerardo Sumano [00:42:55] Just yesterday there was the church write
John Dehlin [00:42:57] an amicus brief in the Supreme Court.
Gerardo Sumano [00:42:58] I, I didn't check, but I, I
John Dehlin [00:43:01] can guarantee that they have. Okay. Yeah. So. So if the church is sort of trying to impose. Inject its moral standards into the law, then just immediately that invites scrutiny, you're saying.
Samantha Shelley [00:43:13] Yeah. While being tax free.
John Dehlin [00:43:15] Yeah. Okay, okay, cool.
Guest 2 [00:43:17] We.
John Dehlin [00:43:17] We do have a comment here that I think is worth reading. Cassifras says, I'm sorry I'm straining everyone, but I have to look sideways. It was an ASU security guard who recorded it, so apparently we know who recorded it. According to Cassifras, Tyler is a senior. Also married my cousin. Oh, so Tyler married Casafras's cousin and is a teddy bear. So Tyler's. Tyler's a teddy bear.
John Dehlin [00:43:47] I believe that. Yeah, I believe. I believe that. No, no shade at athletes or football players. He was just hyping up his team. I will say. And, Samantha, you didn't get to hear the full version. And again, I. I'm. I have feet of clay and glass. Like, we'll mix all the metaphors here. He. He did say. You're all acting like a bunch of. He did say that. Is that. Is that, like, do you. Is that. Do we care? Is that an anti. Is that a big deal that it's degrading to women or whatever? Do you feel strongly about the use of that word versus calling the. Or say fuck?
Samantha Shelley [00:44:28] Or would you prefer pussies or bitches? As the woman on the panel, I think using pussies in that context, even though it is, like, a pretty ubiquitous phrase, it is somewhat revealing of, you know, sort of their general state of mind around women in a way that's not surprising. Seems like sports culture probably uses that word a lot. Generally among men, there's simply no way to motivate a team other than by insulting them, by likening them to women.
Gerardo Sumano [00:44:59] Women.
Samantha Shelley [00:44:59] The Ted Lasso approach hasn't caught on yet in America. Okay, imagine if BYU had a Ted Lasso type coach. That would be so fitting, and then they would actually have a leg to stand on.
John Dehlin [00:45:09] I'm dying to know whether, like, the current BYU coach swears, whether the Bell Edwards used to swear. I would assume they do.
Samantha Shelley [00:45:15] I mean, swears a bit soft. Swearer.
John Dehlin [00:45:17] Yeah. Yeah. All right, so. So, on to the slides. So, Gerardo, the next one is the actual honor code.
Gerardo Sumano [00:45:23] Yeah, he has that line.
John Dehlin [00:45:25] Do you want to respect others, including the avoidance of profane and vulgar language? So it's part of the autocode.
Gerardo Sumano [00:45:31] Yeah, one of the 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 points. One of the eight points is profanity.
John Dehlin [00:45:36] So it's honesty, chastity, virtue, alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, vaping marijuana, other substances, attend church, don't use vulgar language, obey and follow campus policies, including the dress and grooming standards. Okay, so this is on the same level as stuff that gets people kicked out of byu.
Gerardo Sumano [00:45:57] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:45:58] So, I mean, that's, it's, it's actually sandwiched between, like, if you don't dress right, you can't go to the testing center and like take a test. Right. You can, you can get kicked out of BYU for violating a stress code and for, and for the word of wisdom, the health code, and for sexual stuff. So, I mean, it's there.
Gerardo Sumano [00:46:18] Yep. You can, you can get, literally get kicked out for the dress code. If you are a man who identifies as a, you know, you were, I, you were assigned male at birth and then identify as a woman and want to dress, you know, as a woman, you. You're, you'll get kicked out just for your dress code.
John Dehlin [00:46:39] So if, if the, if BYU is going to be consistent in its enforcement of these policies, then it would call Tyler Batty into the Honor Court office. Here's a photo of Tyler Batty, 92. I'm sure he's a super nice guy, so we're not trashing him.
Gerardo Sumano [00:46:57] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:46:57] But they would call him into the Honor Court office. What. Warn him, say, if you, if you're caught swearing again, we're gonna, we're gonna kick you out of the university. Is that right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:06] Yeah, yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:47:07] Well,
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:09] I'm not sure to that level, but I mean, we. There, the church has, and the Honor Code has a history on enforcing its policies, especially when things become public and caring about its image. So it was really surprising, you know, to have. We'll talk about it. Yeah. The BYU officials justifying this.
John Dehlin [00:47:31] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:32] So.
John Dehlin [00:47:32] All right, we'll get to that. So, so here's a photo. You have a photo of Tyler on his mission.
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:36] He went on a mission.
John Dehlin [00:47:38] Looks like Spanish.
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:39] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:47:40] So he's a missionary. Did you have any point other than just that? He's.
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:45] Well, showing that because, because like you said at the beginning, sometimes BYU recruits non member. So just to show he's not just a member, but he was a returned missionary.
Samantha Shelley [00:47:54] Okay, but was he an apartment? That's what we need to know.
John Dehlin [00:48:00] So. Because you want to know if he's marriage material.
Samantha Shelley [00:48:02] Right, Right. Six foot six, you say?
Gerardo Sumano [00:48:06] Well, he is married.
John Dehlin [00:48:09] Oh, so this is his Instagram type.
Gerardo Sumano [00:48:11] Yeah, that's. That's his wife. There's a picture on the Instagram with, you know, the.
John Dehlin [00:48:18] Yeah, that one on the right is weird. So you just. How did you find that photo? So it's basically the Instagram. So his. It shows, I assume, the person that's his wife. Yeah, it shows her in a. What do you call that top? Samantha. I Don't. I don't know.
Samantha Shelley [00:48:31] Bralette.
John Dehlin [00:48:32] A bralette.
Samantha Shelley [00:48:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:33] Okay, so she's wearing a bralette. I see her stomach, which is a no, no in Mormon.
Gerardo Sumano [00:48:39] She's a UVU student, by the way. She's not byu.
John Dehlin [00:48:41] Well, maybe not. It's possible she's not a Mormon or she's not active, I guess. But. But clearly for those of us who.
Gerardo Sumano [00:48:48] There was no temple pictures in the. In the Instagram.
John Dehlin [00:48:51] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [00:48:52] It's more bad girl Mormon, though, for sure. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:54] Or non Mormon.
Guest 2 [00:48:56] Right.
Guest [00:48:56] We.
John Dehlin [00:48:56] So we don't know. But it's certainly not BYU or Mormon dress code standards. But the weird one is he's in the backdrop flipping off the camera with his middle finger, which, again, no judgment, other than that's kind of off brand for a Mormon returned missionary.
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:15] I would be scared. So, like, to post a picture like that while going to byu.
Samantha Shelley [00:49:21] Oh, me too. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:22] Yeah. Because if a non football player posted a photo like that, they could get in trouble.
Guest 2 [00:49:25] Right?
John Dehlin [00:49:26] Yeah, but that. Are you. Is that right now public on his Instagram? Yeah, I bet it won't be by tomorrow.
Samantha Shelley [00:49:33] Stand by it, Tyler.
John Dehlin [00:49:36] Yeah, yeah. Because he's kind of flipping off. He's just kind of. He's flipping off.
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:39] And then the one on the left. Interesting Official BYU picture. I mean, I don't know how official, but that's definitely in the BYU studio. These are the pictures that BYU takes of their athletes. And that's not interesting. Dress and grooming standards that are enforced to other women, but not the. If you're the wife of the athlete.
John Dehlin [00:50:01] And the byline says God, family and BYU football. That's what the byline says. All right. Like in his Instagram profile.
Samantha Shelley [00:50:09] Oh, right, right, right.
John Dehlin [00:50:10] That's like his little.
Samantha Shelley [00:50:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:50:12] All right, so what's this next slide, Gerardo?
Media Coverage and Teammate Responses
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:14] So, okay, so now we're getting into the articles and I. I decided to put this one here, but this was from the Washington. Oh.
John Dehlin [00:50:21] Can I say one thing?
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:22] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:50:22] I think it's kind of cool. Like, can't we, as progressive Mormons or ex Mormons think it's kind of. Can I say badass? That like, he's. He's defying cheesy, parochial, Victorian stereotypes that he is. That she is dressed in a way that's comfortable for her, that he is expressing himself in non traditional, pure purity Mormon ways and that he's kind of being who he is on Instagram. Can we celebrate that?
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:53] Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Samantha Shelley [00:50:54] Can we say that's cool in some ways? I know what you're saying. And also there's kind of a little bit of a thing in patriarchal cultures like Mormonism where it's like the rules can be bent if it's in a way that benefits a man and his sort of like potential ego and pleasure. So like having a wife who dressed, who dresses more, you know, like modern day hot, hot girl is like benefiting him as the husband and, and she's married and she belongs to a man. So it's kind of like more. Okay. I don't know. It's just interesting. It does feel like a lot of the rules that in patriarchal groups like Mormonism that people will be willing to bend are the ones that generally cater to like the male experience.
John Dehlin [00:51:41] But couldn't we say that's a courageous thing to do? Like he's, he's trying to change culture and say, hey Mormons, don't be so prudish. Hey church, I'm going to defy your rules. I'm not going to be a good little priesthood boy. I'm going to be me publicly. Is it. Can we say that's a good thing?
Samantha Shelley [00:51:58] I like when people defy orthodoxy. I don't. Courageous is like, I mean, who's to really say on that one whether it comes from a place of personal courage?
John Dehlin [00:52:09] Well, it'll be courageous. If he leaves it up after this episode, that will be courageous. Okay. All right, so this next slide.
Gerardo Sumano [00:52:18] So this is from the Washington Times article. And they interviewed the other BYU football captain, Connor Pay, who was. Is also a returned missionary.
John Dehlin [00:52:30] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:52:30] And the article says BYU has not announced any discipline for Batty, whose teammates are more concerned about the video than the speech.
Guest [00:52:39] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:52:40] And then there's a quote. Do you want to read it?
John Dehlin [00:52:43] This is the center, so the tallest, probably biggest, strongest of all the players on the team. Historically that can be true. It made me want to run through a wall again at around 11:30 Sunday night when I heard again on my tick tock the day of the Lord,
Gerardo Sumano [00:53:00] he, He heard again the speech and
John Dehlin [00:53:02] he wanted to run through on the Sabbath, you're saying, yeah, okay. Not super appropriate, I don't think, to have an employee of the school you're at take a video of a private team moment like that. But at the end of the day, honestly, we don't care that much, said Senator Conor Bay. So is your point, Gerardo, that if he were a faithful Mormon, he would be disappointed in his teammates, bad language and not mad at the person who recorded it? Is that.
Gerardo Sumano [00:53:28] Well, you can be both.
John Dehlin [00:53:30] Yeah, right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:53:31] You, when when he started saying this, obviously not super appropriate, I was like, okay, he's gonna say that he wasn't. That it was not super appropriate speech. But then, no, he. He's talking only about the guy that recorded it, not about the speech at all. In fact, he's praising this speech.
John Dehlin [00:53:48] Speech.
Gerardo Sumano [00:53:50] So that was interesting. Can you imagine being a BYU student and going on a national news network and saying, you know, oh, violation against the honor code. Amazing.
John Dehlin [00:54:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. If any student or faculty were to defend any other violation of the honor code, like, I'm glad he had sex with his girlfriend, or like, you know, I'm mad at the student that turned him in for smoking weed.
Samantha Shelley [00:54:16] Heartbroken to learn that one of our teammates.
John Dehlin [00:54:19] Yeah, no, I mean, that is actually really interesting that another student is. Is refusing to care about honor code enforcement.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:32] And what about this idea?
John Dehlin [00:54:34] Also because the honor code requires you turn people in.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:36] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:54:37] So he should be turning in his teammate according to the honor code. Yeah. Not decrying the person who turned him in.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:44] Am I right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:45] Yeah. Well, I'll be where you are. I knew that if one of the, you know, if you were.
John Dehlin [00:54:50] You had straight people turning you and Zach in all the time.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:52] Yeah. But if you have. If you were known to have information about someone violating the honor code and didn't turn them in, you were equally.
John Dehlin [00:55:01] Yes.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:02] Liable for that violation.
John Dehlin [00:55:03] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:55:04] You're like a soldier on the battlefield leaving your brother to die, according to Kimby Clark. And.
Guest [00:55:09] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [00:55:10] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:10] So you could be as disciplined just as. As much as the person who violated the honor code.
John Dehlin [00:55:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest [00:55:17] And.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:17] And he's. This is interesting, right? Like that he's mad about the private moment, the private, private team moment being recorded or made public, which is interesting because I guarantee that most honor code violations that are, you know, result in discipline come for. From people who are turned in.
John Dehlin [00:55:41] Yeah. So somebody were to see his roommate having sex with his girlfriend in his apartment. That's a private moment. And if you go tell on him, you're. You're violating a private moment.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:55:52] Like, doesn't that.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:53] Or drinking in your apartment.
John Dehlin [00:55:55] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:55] I'd be. Why you.
John Dehlin [00:55:56] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:56] Isn't that your private place?
John Dehlin [00:55:58] So basically, doesn't the rule that you turn in your fellow students for violating the honor code assume that you're going to be violating private moments? Isn't that like a requirement of the rule?
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:09] Yeah, right, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:56:11] And just to be clear, you can get kicked out of BYU for not turning someone in if you know they did something wrong. Am I right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:17] Yeah. Oh, at least he was when I was there.
John Dehlin [00:56:19] Yeah. Okay. Okay, so now you've got some clips from ksl. Tell us who KSL is and why.
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:26] So KSL is owned indirectly by the church.
John Dehlin [00:56:29] So it's a, it's a radio station in Salt Lake City.
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:56:33] Owned probably by Bonneville Media. Okay. But it's basically a church owned radio station.
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:39] That's correct.
John Dehlin [00:56:40] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:56:41] All right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:41] And they have a podcast, which I learned about this. Yeah. And we have DJ mpk and I tried to do some research. It seems like they're both members of the church, but definitely the one that talks the most and is gonna defend Baddie, he is definitely a member of the church, which is. Which I believe is pk.
John Dehlin [00:57:07] So there's David James and Patrick Kinahan.
Guest [00:57:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:57:10] Okay. All right, so we've got a few clips. Let's play the first one.
Guest 2 [00:57:16] My. My response to it is big deal. I will say, and I've been saying this for years, I think that's why some of these folks who want to tell you that BYU is so different, tone that down. My experience, you're not that different. You're like everybody else. You got a few rules over there. Good for you. But just because you got the rules. All right, they're nice rules, but that doesn't mean anybody's living them. I learned that at Peterson Gym, San Diego, California.
John Dehlin [00:57:53] Peterson Gymnasium, Yeah. I have to say I haven't heard that clip. This is the first time I heard it. And I love the fact that a church owned radio station has a DJ saying byu, you're not special. Tone down your superior moral superiority. What do you think, Sammy?
Samantha Shelley [00:58:14] Yeah, no, I, I'm trying to kind of reckon with it on the spot because, yeah, I think you're right. But it also, it does all still to me have this energy of patriarchy to it where it's like. Because this is like a protected men's, you know, sports, and, and it's a man. Yeah. You know, if it was a, a woman athlete at BYU screaming like that in the locker room, do you think that she would get away with it? I feel like that would be a much bigger deal. But it's like this sacred, protected thing of like, well, men are allowed to like, really unleash their aggression if it's in the name of sports.
Samantha Shelley [00:58:56] So it's kind of like these, these juxtaposing, like two patriarchal things that kind of conflict with each other. So one wins. Because, like, in that situation, obviously sports brings in a lot of money. And, like, sports are so sacred to people.
John Dehlin [00:59:12] But he's saying the rules are dumb and the moral superiority is dumb. Let's tone down the rules and the moral superiority.
Samantha Shelley [00:59:20] Yeah, that guy doesn't seem like Bishop material to me, but he's more on the. On the Jack Morgan side of.
John Dehlin [00:59:26] And I wonder if he'll get in trouble for making that statement.
Gerardo Sumano [00:59:28] We'll see.
John Dehlin [00:59:29] Yeah, we'll see.
Gerardo Sumano [00:59:29] I mean, only a couple hundred people. What's up?
John Dehlin [00:59:33] But tens of thousands. Watch this one.
Guest [00:59:35] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:59:38] Or hundreds. Depends. Or millions. Okay, so let's go. Should we go to the next clip?
Gerardo Sumano [00:59:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:43] All right, let's go to the next clip.
▶ Video Clip 2Video Clip 2 [00:59:47] Jesus came to heal the sick.
Video Clip 2 [00:59:49] Oh, my God.
Video Clip 2 [00:59:50] Oh, okay.
Video Clip 2 [00:59:51] And I was sick last week. I go down to Arizona and you got sick? I got sick. I spent Friday the whole day in bed, and it was 78 degrees out, and I literally spent the whole freaking day in bed. Jesus came for me.
Video Clip 2 [01:00:06] What?
Video Clip 2 [01:00:07] We're all human here. If I'm byu, I don't even acknowledge it, Okay? I just let it go. But to just tone down how different you are. Stop telling me you're so different. Not that they're all doing it. Not that Tom Homo's doing it or any of that other stuff, but there are people out there who want to tell you so much that they're different. No, the basketball team is no longer different. It ain't a bunch of RMS running around shooting baskets and running Hoosiers type offenses here. That's long gone.
John Dehlin [01:00:43] I mean, that's fascinating. Sammy, what do you think?
Samantha Shelley [01:00:45] Men are so hysterical. Come on. Just another really hysterical man this episode. But I'm like, clearly he struggles to keep the standards because it's like this is feeling personal for him.
John Dehlin [01:00:56] Well, or he's. Could it be he's decrying hypocrisy? And isn't that to be applauded?
Samantha Shelley [01:01:01] It sure could be. But it really sounds like he has personal investment.
John Dehlin [01:01:05] Well, I think what's remarkable is that he's basically countering the apostles and the prophets. Here's a revelation.
Gerardo Sumano [01:01:11] He's going to bring them up. Oh, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:13] Because, Gerardo, we already played those clips of. Of. Of Holland and Oaks and Nelson, prophet sisters and revelators saying BYU special. And he's saying, all you prophet revelators are full of crap. Tone that down. And that gets you in trouble in Mormonism.
Samantha Shelley [01:01:29] But what did he mean when he was saying, I got sick?
John Dehlin [01:01:31] I don't know.
Samantha Shelley [01:01:32] In Arizona.
John Dehlin [01:01:33] I don't know. Jesus was there just like, because you
Samantha Shelley [01:01:35] got, like, physically ill with a virus, that's the same as, like, we're all sinners.
John Dehlin [01:01:39] I don't know. I don't know. I. I somehow did not follow that.
Samantha Shelley [01:01:43] I didn't really understand that metaphor at all.
Gerardo Sumano [01:01:45] He was renting.
John Dehlin [01:01:46] Okay. Which I've never done. Okay. All right, let's go.
Gerardo Sumano [01:01:51] Your rants make sense, though.
John Dehlin [01:01:52] Oh, thank you.
Gerardo Sumano [01:01:53] We understand them.
John Dehlin [01:01:54] Do you hear that, Sammy? My. My rants make sense.
Samantha Shelley [01:01:56] I would love to hear that one day.
Audio Clips and Double Standards in Mormon Culture
John Dehlin [01:01:59] All right, let's hear the third clip. I love these.
▶ Video Clip 3Video Clip 3 [01:02:04] Jesus came to heal the sick.
Video Clip 3 [01:02:06] Oh, sorry. Is that the same one?
Video Clip 3 [01:02:08] Oh, is that the same one? Okay, so I think there's only three. Yeah. One, two. An assistant coach or grass.
Video Clip 3 [01:02:20] This isn't in a public setting. This is in a locker room. This should have never been recorded. It should have never been released.
Video Clip 3 [01:02:28] Was it?
Video Clip 3 [01:02:29] I think ASU needs to find out who did that because that's a low blow. That's off limits, man. That's not acceptable. But, you know, at the same time, BYU ought to consider it a badge of honor, because you are. You are thought of as different. If that would have been. I mean, Dillingham is There's right there on the field. He's dropping bleep and bleep and bleep right to the referees in front of everybody.
Video Clip 3 [01:02:56] He was mfing referee.
Video Clip 3 [01:02:58] Right. He's going nuts. Everybody could see it right there. And that's another story. And here I've heard stories of.
Video Clip 3 [01:03:11] I mean,
Video Clip 3 [01:03:14] one. One example of a basketball coach lighting up his team, and he doesn't realize it, but in walks a general authority behind and he can't see, but the guys can see him. It's like, yeah, you're in the moment, man. I mean, come on.
John Dehlin [01:03:34] I've used this analogy before on the show. I'm fairly certain I know a guy who's a former BYU walk on. They got into a scrap.
Guest [01:03:39] This.
John Dehlin [01:03:40] We're talking years ago, so this person's well removed from their days at byu. They got in a scrap. They were a walk on. And they unleashed a string of profanities, turned around three members of the 70 and two members of the Quorum of the 12 standing right behind him said he turned around and thought his life was over. Human sacrifice seems intense.
Guest [01:04:00] No, but one.
Guest 2 [01:04:01] But one of the. What? I know.
Gerardo Sumano [01:04:03] And then one of the 70 looks
John Dehlin [01:04:04] at him and says, we get it. That's all it was said, guys. Interesting. I mean, okay, that. That could be viewed as a hypocritical story where the general authorities are being hypocrites. Or it could be viewed as like they're being chill and they're cooler than we think and they're, they're not as uptight.
Samantha Shelley [01:04:23] Yeah, it's like, forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.
John Dehlin [01:04:25] That's actually Christian.
Guest [01:04:27] Right.
John Dehlin [01:04:27] We're all sinners. Which is it? Which is it?
Gerardo Sumano [01:04:31] I think the book by Harris kind of reveals how this plays out with general authorities in how they enforce the rules. There are some stories he tells about black members of the church who had received the priesthood because they passed as white.
Gerardo Sumano [01:04:52] And then at some points, like general authorities would have to make the decision so whether they would lose their privileges and lose the priesthood because it was found out that they were black. And it was so arbitrary how these decisions were made to the point where like even the prophet, I'm not sure if he was the prophet at the time, Joseph Feeling Smith would say, no, you're not, you're, you're gonna lose the priesthood. But then we, when he actually got to meet the person, he changed his mind.
Gerardo Sumano [01:05:23] So I think this guy, I mean, I think this is how a lot of these things sometimes play out with general authorities. But that's, that's my opinion.
John Dehlin [01:05:36] Yeah, well, I, I do like the idea. Like, I remember I was dating, I dated Mary Holland, Jeffrey Holland's daughter. And I'm not mentioning this to name drop, but it was just, we were freshmen and I dated her and Renee
Samantha Shelley [01:05:51] Zellweger had broken out with me.
John Dehlin [01:05:52] Yeah, exactly. No, but she told me that like her dad watched the super bowl on Sunday and that he liked Billy Joel. And like I, I remember liking hearing that the general authorities are just good, normal human humans when they're not in general conference. That is kind of refreshing. Right?
Samantha Shelley [01:06:09] I think what, I think in this, what, what just keeps coming into my mind in this specific context we're discussing is it just feels like in Mormonism, which is a patriarchal system, male aggression still has some degree of protection, especially if you're a higher up man who's benefiting the system as a whole. That's what it kind of feels like to me because I'm like this, the swearing, I mean, obviously don't care if people swear. And I obviously understand that like sports are a high. They're like an intense emotional thing. But it's more kind of the aggression aspect that is disturbing to me. And again, there is no world where if like BYU cheerleaders, you know, like, did a string of profanities or, you know, were in the exact same situation and turned around and there's three members of the 70 that. That they would never be like, we get it.
John Dehlin [01:07:03] You don't think so?
Samantha Shelley [01:07:03] No, it's like, it. It's. The male aggression is. There's no way women would get that same.
John Dehlin [01:07:10] Do you agree, Gerardo? Do you agree with that?
Gerardo Sumano [01:07:12] Probably, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:07:13] Do you think these sports. Well, I'm trying to think, like, if these. If, like, let's just say the BYU women's basketball team were caught swearing, would these sports bros say the same thing? Like, no big deal. Guys swear, women swear, move on, nothing to see here. Or would they all of a sudden have moral concern over byu? I. I tend to think these sports bros would be cool with the women swearing just like the men.
Samantha Shelley [01:07:37] Well, look at the secret lives of Mormon wives. Right. These are women who in a lot of cases are, like, still attending the temple and are still very Mormon. Believe in Mormonism and because they break the modesty standards or, you know, I mean, realistically, it's just that. Or, you know, they promote vibrators. That's seen.
Gerardo Sumano [01:07:53] That's a good point.
Samantha Shelley [01:07:54] As so abhorrent by the average Mormon who's kind of weighing in on the discourse. But according to you, the Mormons in this case are very much like, don't worry about it.
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:03] Well, the full force of the church. Like, didn't the church release a statement specifically about that show?
Samantha Shelley [01:08:08] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:09] So the full force of the church comes down on these five women who most of them have temple recommends.
Samantha Shelley [01:08:17] Yeah. Drank alcohol in a hot tub in one scene. But, like, there wasn't actually anything in the Secret Lives that was. That was any more egregious than swearing. I mean, except for the men being abusive.
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:29] Right.
John Dehlin [01:08:30] You forget the soft swinging, Samantha.
Samantha Shelley [01:08:32] That wasn't in the show.
Guest [01:08:32] I know.
John Dehlin [01:08:33] Well, they talked about it.
Samantha Shelley [01:08:34] It was implied. The soft swinging was in the.
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:36] But he was talked about as Hershey's
Samantha Shelley [01:08:37] repenting and Mormon hero's journey. But once you've done soft swinging, it follows you everywhere. There's some things the atonement cannot cover.
John Dehlin [01:08:48] Well, that's interesting, whether this is kind of a patriarchal past that these players are getting. I think swearing's probably always been a part of BYU football, and I. I tend to think the brethren would not really care. I wonder if 30 or 40 years ago, if this had happened, if it would have been a bigger deal from church leadership. You know, I don't know. It does seem like the church is getting more laxed. Right. Like, I Hear about bishops letting members smoke cannabis and there's no repercussions that, that you drink coffee or be an atheist and you can still go to the temple. Like, I think as the church keeps hemorrhaging members, like most religions in the United States, the, the brethren are realizing.
John Dehlin [01:09:34] You hear about adultery now, not really leading text communication. The only thing that really gets excommunicated these days are apostasy or like same sex marriage. Right. Which is stuff that, I don't know, present an existential threat to the church, but swearing doesn't. Word of wisdom doesn't. So I think the church is getting more laxed, don't you think?
Samantha Shelley [01:09:56] I don't know. It still feels very patriarchal all the way down. I don't think you can escape that.
John Dehlin [01:10:03] All right. Okay, Gerardo, what's this next? So this is just ksl.
Gerardo Sumano [01:10:09] Yeah. This opinion article by Patrick Kenny Hound. Who. What we just listen on the podcast and he's basically just repeating the same things and he's basically a church employee, right? Yeah, yeah. But probably we should skip to a slide number 21 if you. If you want, because that's the one where he has the quote by the coach.
John Dehlin [01:10:33] Okay, so this is Sataki.
Gerardo Sumano [01:10:35] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:10:36] Okay, I'm there.
Gerardo Sumano [01:10:37] So Kalani Sataki was inter. He's the coach, the BYU football coach. He's a BYU employee, you know, paid by the church, and he has to have a temple recommend swear that he's gonna upheld the honor code, that he is gonna upheld the church's teachings of gender and sexual orientation and all that, and swear that he's gonna do that. But anyway, he's.
Gerardo Sumano [01:11:08] He's quoted here in the KSL article when he's. He was asked, okay, what about the recording? What do you think about the recording? And he says, they'll deal with it. I Trust the Big 12 leadership and let them handle that.
Gerardo Sumano [01:11:27] But Sitaki was kicked to praise Baddy for his contributions to the team, noting he turned down more money to stay with byu. And this is quote, a quote direct, a direct quote by Kalani. He's all about legacy. He's all about doing what he can do to help this program.
Gerardo Sumano [01:11:48] So basically, you know, that's okay if he's sore. Like, he'll do whatever he. He needs to do to help the program. This is his home. You can see in the way he plays that he wants this place to succeed. And.
John Dehlin [01:12:03] And you think that's interesting why?
Gerardo Sumano [01:12:05] I heard that we have a BYU employee on a news network kind of justifying a violation of the honor code, which wouldn't pass for any other kind of behavior.
John Dehlin [01:12:18] Yeah. Like if a, if a BYU player was caught, football players caught having sex with a woman, I can't imagine Sataki saying, oh, what a great guy. He loves the team, he's really committed. Or if he was gay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:12:32] Right.
John Dehlin [01:12:32] If there was a gay athlete. I can't imagine those.
Samantha Shelley [01:12:35] Swearing is not even like. Swearing is not considered up there with sexual sins.
John Dehlin [01:12:39] Except it was listed in that honor code thing like right there.
Samantha Shelley [01:12:41] Yeah, I know, but we all know there's a hierarchy of Mormons and sex.
Gerardo Sumano [01:12:47] But let's say if he was questioned about, I don't know, why is, why is your byu. Why are your BYU football players not abiding by the dress and grooming standards of byu? He wouldn't make a comment like this, I don't think.
Samantha Shelley [01:13:01] And where are the comments from any church leaders that, you know, if they swore on the secret lives of Mormon wives, do you think anyone would be like, it's not a big deal. Okay. They were just like stressed because they had to get glam for this event and they didn't know what to wear. You know, they would just never apply.
John Dehlin [01:13:16] Yeah. Okay. Well, it's interesting nonetheless. So you've got this LDS Living.
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:21] Yeah, interesting. So he, he was featured on the LDS Living. LDS Living article.
John Dehlin [01:13:28] But that's not a church sponsored magazine. Right.
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:30] That's LDS Living.
Guest 2 [01:13:31] Is it?
Samantha Shelley [01:13:32] Yeah, it shares an office of Deseret Book.
John Dehlin [01:13:34] Oh, okay.
Samantha Shelley [01:13:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:35] So that's the truth.
Samantha Shelley [01:13:36] Super chat. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:37] Okay. Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:40] Yeah. So he tells, he tells in that article his story about how he had a spiritual experience and that's why he joined BYU as a coach.
Guest [01:13:48] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:49] So he's highly regarded. You know, someone who would, you would, you would assume. It's just, it's just crazy to me because you have so many, so many faculty members at BYU scared of losing their jobs because they support LGBT people. You know, and, and now BYU is having them have, have to abide by all this, you know, Part things where he, they have to swear that they're going to support the, the church's policies and doctrines on gender and sexual orientation. And so they're all scared of like displaying pride flags on their offices and that kind of stuff. And have a faculty member like this just going out on a news network justifying violations of the honor code is just.
John Dehlin [01:14:40] Or praising someone.
Gerardo Sumano [01:14:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:14:41] Who just got in trouble.
Gerardo Sumano [01:14:42] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:14:43] Yeah.
Guest [01:14:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:14:45] And I guess, I guess, Samantha, your point is valid. Like swearing is nowhere near sex in severity for the Mormon Church, right?
Samantha Shelley [01:14:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:14:54] Yeah. So that's part of what we're dealing with here. Yeah. But defying authority is the third rail in Mormonism and. And herodo, I guess you're saying these KSL employees and even the coach is skating a little bit close to defying church authority.
Gerardo Sumano [01:15:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:11] But they'll ignore it because he's coach of a successful football team, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, so now you've got. What are these? Twitter.
Gerardo Sumano [01:15:21] Yeah. So there's. There's some Twitter comments. These were in regards to the leak of the audio that we can. We can reach as a couple.
John Dehlin [01:15:29] Okay. All right. To tell us which ones, let's.
Gerardo Sumano [01:15:33] Let's read this three.
John Dehlin [01:15:34] Okay. So Roman. Roman Matthew writes, I am LDS and I don't swear and I approve every single words. Baddie said. What?
Guest [01:15:44] What?
John Dehlin [01:15:46] Way to fire up the team and way to show that a byu that at BYU or member of the church are human and we exercise our free agency. Weather is a bad word or not. And that must be a typo. They showed up second half Cougars. Let's freaking go. So it's a member saying, I don't mind that he swears. We're all human.
Gerardo Sumano [01:16:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:16:10] Okay. And can we say that's good that he's being relaxed and less uptight or that he's a hypocrite?
Gerardo Sumano [01:16:18] I. I can guarantee if this was a post about, you know, the honor code reversing its policy on same sex romantic behavior, this person wouldn't be commenting something.
Guest [01:16:29] Something like this.
John Dehlin [01:16:31] Yeah, yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:16:32] It's really. Because sports tap into this other version of tribalism. So it's like you have the tribalism of being in the RDS church, but then there's the tribalism of your sports team. And in this situation, he wanted to be able to feel good about the fact that his team won. And. Yeah. So it's like, again, it's like these clashing tribes, even though it's like a tribe within the tribe, you know?
John Dehlin [01:16:52] Yeah. All right. Samantha, do you want to read that second? I don't know if you have your.
Samantha Shelley [01:16:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:16:57] Do you want to read that second? This is a woman named Katie. Katie MG4747. What does she write?
Samantha Shelley [01:17:05] I'm confused. Am I supposed to be shocked or offended or something?
John Dehlin [01:17:08] And I'm assuming she's lds.
Gerardo Sumano [01:17:10] Yeah. Yeah, it was funny. I. I should have included, but I took originally some screenshots from her Twitter.
John Dehlin [01:17:18] You don't want to. Dr.
Gerardo Sumano [01:17:19] I mean, we have. She's. It's public. You can go and see it. But she has, you know, quotes by N.E. maxwell and all the. And reposting quotes about, you know, women, why they shouldn't go out and work, why they. Women belong in the home. And, you know, so it's interesting. We care about those things. But this is. This is okay.
John Dehlin [01:17:43] Yeah. I'm just. I'm always torn. I'm like, yeah, Mormons are getting less uptight. That feels good. But then. Yeah, it is not the Mormonism.
Samantha Shelley [01:17:52] Yeah. And like, Tom Cruise was getting less uptight when he jumped on that couch.
John Dehlin [01:17:55] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:17:56] And was, like, running the Scientology show.
John Dehlin [01:18:00] Yeah.
Guest 2 [01:18:00] Yeah. I wish.
John Dehlin [01:18:01] I wish members would speak up and say, I don't care that two BYU women were kissing or holding hands, but they wouldn't do that. Even though kissing and holding hands is probably not as bad as swearing in the Mormon hierarchy of.
Gerardo Sumano [01:18:18] Well, apparently, Katie. Yeah. Let's not even go same sex.
John Dehlin [01:18:22] Holding hands is worse than swearing.
Samantha Shelley [01:18:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:24] I gave.
Samantha Shelley [01:18:25] Feelings in your heart. Holding hands with gay feelings in your heart is better than swearing.
John Dehlin [01:18:29] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:18:30] What about women working.
Samantha Shelley [01:18:31] Yeah. And a woman outside the home. Please, John, grow up.
John Dehlin [01:18:37] All right, do we read the third Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:18:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:40] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:18:41] Most. Most of the people who think this is an issue, a. Have never played sports. Maybe. Maybe that's why. Yeah, maybe that's why I find it
Guest 2 [01:18:50] an issue
John Dehlin [01:18:52] you've never played.
Gerardo Sumano [01:18:53] Yeah. B, if you didn't think this was already happening at byu, then you live in a fantasy world. This just happened to be recorded.
John Dehlin [01:19:02] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [01:19:03] Yeah, that seems true.
John Dehlin [01:19:04] I mean, that makes sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:19:08] All right, we can skip a few slides. We can go to David. David Bocavoy.
John Dehlin [01:19:13] Oh, okay. Okay. So David Bakavoy. We've had a Mormon stories. He was a. He was the CES director over MIT and Harvard, came back to Utah, Hope to become BYU faculty. He's an expert on ancient languages. And unfortunately, he lost his faith and wasn't hired at byu. Not in that order. And eventually he no longer working at byu. So. Yeah, he's done some great classic Mormon stories episodes. And he made a comment. He. He jumped in here. So should we read his comment?
Gerardo Sumano [01:19:48] Sure.
John Dehlin [01:19:48] Do you want to read it? Yeah. So David writes David Bakavoy. And this is why so many disdain byu. They present themselves as morally superior to others, but typically only hold LGBTQ+ standards and. And faculty to their standards. Athletes often get a pass or a very minimal consequence. That's what you're saying, Samantha.
Guest [01:20:08] Right.
Samantha Shelley [01:20:08] Yeah, we. I mean, we know this is a classic characteristic of high control groups that People, the protected elite, get to break the rules while everyone else gets, you know, beaten over the head. Sorry, I don't have a metaphor, really. You know, Tom can. Tom Cruise can do whatever he wants, but the average Scientology member might have to, you know, do $6,000 of repentance because they, like, had a bad thought once.
John Dehlin [01:20:32] It reminds me of George Orwell's Animal Farm. All. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. Right? Remember that? Yeah. That's a good book.
Samantha Shelley [01:20:41] Great book.
John Dehlin [01:20:42] Yeah. Is he British? George Orwell?
Samantha Shelley [01:20:44] I don't know.
John Dehlin [01:20:45] Okay, somebody. Somebody Google that and let us know. Okay, Gerardo, we've got the Instagram for honor code stories next.
Honor Code Enforcement Stories from Students
Gerardo Sumano [01:20:53] Yeah, so just to drive the point home that, you know, these. These rules are actually enforced, and sometimes arbitrarily enforced, and sometimes enforced up on people who didn't even do anything or actually broke the honor code. There was a Instagram account started a few years ago called Honor Code Stories, so people can go there. It has 24,000 followers. Unfortunately, they stopped posting stories a couple years ago, but. But it's full of. Of these stories of people who were turned in, caught, or, you know, disciplined by the honor code, sometimes for not even violating it, but just because people thought they did.
Guest [01:21:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:39] And. Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:21:41] And then, so I put out a survey, a survey for people to submit stories for us to maybe read a couple on. On this episode, on their experiences with the honor code, just to give viewers
John Dehlin [01:21:57] and listeners, especially those who didn't attend BYU or who have never been Mormon, the sense to which people can be terrorized by the BYU honor code. Is that right? Yeah, for, you know, really inhumane things.
Gerardo Sumano [01:22:09] Yeah.
Guest 2 [01:22:09] Which is.
John Dehlin [01:22:09] Which is really what this episode's about. It's about a. A policy that many of us don't like because it's hypocritical or impartial, unfairly enforced, or just not synchronous with developmental. Healthy, normative, developmental behaviors for humans. Right. Is that fair?
Samantha Shelley [01:22:30] Slay?
Guest [01:22:31] Yeah. Yep.
John Dehlin [01:22:31] Okay. Okay. So what do you want to do?
Gerardo Sumano [01:22:34] Do you want to start? You want to read it?
John Dehlin [01:22:36] Okay. This is one. My roommate and I left our dorm at 2am to grab some snacks at the gas station down the road. We were gone 15 minutes total. The next day, my RA. So at BYU, there's. If you're living in the dorms, you have resident assistance, and there's that curfew, and you're not allowed to be out past curfew. So this person's out past curfew, and so he's Saying that the next other
Samantha Shelley [01:23:01] BYU schools like byu, I'd heard always curfew.
John Dehlin [01:23:04] Yeah. Yeah. The next day, my RA brought me into her office. So this is a woman. Her R.A. brought her in to the office.
Samantha Shelley [01:23:13] R.A. was a woman. Sorry. Sorry.
John Dehlin [01:23:17] Brought her into the office and pulled out paperwork which showed a picture of my car that another student living in the dorms had taken of our car. So some student takes a picture of them out late and turns them in. How were they. How are they able to take a picture if they were not late themselves?
Samantha Shelley [01:23:32] It cancels out because you knocked. So you won back your virtue.
Guest [01:23:37] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:23:37] That's interesting. Okay, so we never met this person that documented. They documented what time our card left and what time we go. I guess they could have taken the picture from their window.
Gerardo Sumano [01:23:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:48] Of their dorm.
Gerardo Sumano [01:23:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:49] Okay. What time we got back? Wow. So they're waiting up. They're there watching them leave. Taking a photo of them leaving and then waiting for them to come back. And then taking a photo when they come back. And then turning that in.
Gerardo Sumano [01:24:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:24:03] And that's because the honor code requires them to do that sort of behavior. Okay. Or because they're petty and jealous. I won't say the same square words that the Tyler Batty said. Because that wouldn't be good. Right. I won't say it. Okay. The RA or honor code. Not sure who traced the license plate to find out that it was registered to my name in the school system. I was told since it was my car, I was the one held responsible. And she asked me extensively what we were doing out that late. I told her we just went to grab some snacks, which was the truth.
John Dehlin [01:24:38] But she kept asking if we met up with boys. Even though she knew we were only gone 15 minutes and acted like she did not believe me. She told me if it happened again, I'd get in a lot more Trouble. All for 15 minutes of us not being in the dorm. We never found out who turned us in, but we knew we had never met her. So why did you choose this one, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:02] Well, this is people going out to grab some snacks, you know, we're talking about. Well, BYU enforces sexual behavior and that kind of stuff. But, like, yeah, these stories show us that it's not. It's not just that.
John Dehlin [01:25:19] Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous.
Guest [01:25:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:21] Okay. All right. Do you want to read Tommy Samantha?
Samantha Shelley [01:25:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:25] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [01:25:26] Tommy, does this go this way?
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:30] Nope. I mean, I'm so sorry. I went to K. So. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
John Dehlin [01:25:36] Do you want me to Read it.
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:37] We're almost. We're almost there. There we go.
John Dehlin [01:25:38] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [01:25:40] As a wildland firefighter, I couldn't pay tithing because I wasn't at church due to being gone literally all summer on fires before they had online tithing. Went into my bishop to say that I hadn't paid due to being on fires and wanted to start. In addition, there were extenuating circumstances at home in which much of my money went to helping my family. He threatened me to back pay five grand or I would be kicked out of byui. I paid and had literally no money for that year for food or anything. It was absolutely miserable. First time I saw that there was indeed a bishop roulette and the church as a money hungry institution rather than the Lord's church. Though, this wasn't a shelf breaker. It was an easy chip in the foundation of my faith in the LDS Church.
John Dehlin [01:26:20] That's just a horrible story. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:26:25] Kicked out of school because you didn't pay your tithing.
John Dehlin [01:26:28] Yeah. And like, so what's worse? Not paying your tithing or swearing? And Samantha, you're. You're the official moral tithing is the worst one.
Samantha Shelley [01:26:38] And I mean, rookie.
John Dehlin [01:26:39] So it's consistent. It's consistent.
Samantha Shelley [01:26:42] Yeah. And very rookie. To tell your bishop that extenuating circumstances meant maybe you shouldn't have to pay tithing. I mean, come on.
John Dehlin [01:26:48] Yeah, yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:26:49] It's never gonna fly, sadly.
John Dehlin [01:26:51] Okay, so not paying tithing is worse than swearing.
Gerardo Sumano [01:26:54] But that's not in the honor code.
John Dehlin [01:26:56] Yeah, that's true.
Samantha Shelley [01:26:58] Ecclesiastical.
John Dehlin [01:26:59] Yeah, it's ecclesiastical endorsement.
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:02] Yeah. Okay. All right, we got Lindsay. Do you want to read?
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:06] Yeah. Lindsey. I was an employee for the testing center during those years, and the honor code was what we lived by. If students weren't following the honor code for appearance, we were not allowed to administer them their tests. For instance, I remember several times working the evening shift, five to nine, a young man would come in with a five o' clock shadow. I never felt comfortable turning them away, but oftentimes would have one of our older women supervisors watching over my shoulder. It would make it terribly awkward for me, nudging me or whispering in my ear to tell me they had to go back home and shave because the byu.
John Dehlin [01:27:44] You can't have a beer.
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:45] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:27:46] To not even be allowed the five o' clock shadow. What if you. Your hair does grow back by five? Is that what that means?
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Like, I experienced that myself.
John Dehlin [01:27:56] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:57] This happened many times during the years I worked at the testing center. I also witnessed Boy employees having to talk to girls who would come in and their shirts would be too revealing in the chest or showing the stomach.
John Dehlin [01:28:08] No, I remember when, like. I remember when, like, leggings were kind of super in at BYU Idaho and people were getting in trouble. Like, students would have passed the notes. Those leggings are making me uncomfortable. Or students weren't allowed to go to the testing center at BYU Idaho for wearing leggings because I guess they engender erotic thoughts.
Samantha Shelley [01:28:32] Correct? They do.
John Dehlin [01:28:33] Okay, so you agree with no leggings, Samantha?
Samantha Shelley [01:28:37] Yeah, I would not have worn leggings to the testing center. That would have been a fail.
John Dehlin [01:28:41] Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, these. These stories are helping to illustrate how people are terrorized for stupid reasons. So if people are going to be terrorized for stupid reasons, including having their status at the university potentially withdrawn, then that's when the Tyler batty profanity stuff becomes a problem or hypocritical.
Gerardo Sumano [01:29:03] Yeah, right. Yeah. There's some. There's some we received, like, over, you know, dozens of stories, and there are some that I didn't include here because they were maybe too long or complicated. There's one. This person was disciplined by the honor code and kicked out of byu. He was an international student, so he had to go back to his country and lose his student visa, but then later came back because he married to his girlfriend at the time.
Guest 2 [01:29:29] And
Gerardo Sumano [01:29:31] it came back all the way to the. His immigration interview for a green card, where the immigration officer is asking me, well, asking him, well, why did you live, leave the university? Why were you kicked out? And he had to, you know, explain that he was kicked out for violating the honor code. Like these things follow you sometimes.
Samantha Shelley [01:29:52] Yeah, yeah. Immigration stuff is serious. Like getting kicked out is serious in that instance.
Gerardo Sumano [01:29:58] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:29:58] And always.
John Dehlin [01:29:59] Okay. All right. Do we. Are we doing Jenna now?
Gerardo Sumano [01:30:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:30:04] Okay. You want me to read Jenna?
Guest [01:30:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:30:05] All right. Jenna says, I lived with three other roommates off campus. I had a boyfriend at the time who lived in Spanish Fork. And sometimes I would stay late at his house before driving home or stay the night completely. My roommates would chastise me and sat me down one time to tell me they didn't think I should be taking the sacrament anymore because I wasn't living the honor code. It then escalated to me coming home one morning to the locks on our front door changed. I had no way to get ready for my day of classes and had to call a locksmith. Well, it sounds like she was having sex with her boyfriend. Is that implied?
Gerardo Sumano [01:30:38] I. I Don't know, because I. I saw a lot of stories saying that they would sleep over and they wouldn't have sex.
John Dehlin [01:30:43] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:30:44] So I don't.
Guest 2 [01:30:44] I don't.
Samantha Shelley [01:30:45] I've also been locked out of the dorms at BYUI just for coming home late and wasn't doing anything sinful.
John Dehlin [01:30:51] Yeah, but I mean, yeah, changing people's locks is inhumane, period. Even if they have had sex.
Gerardo Sumano [01:30:56] And what about the roommates telling her
Samantha Shelley [01:30:58] even if they have succumb, she shouldn't
Gerardo Sumano [01:31:00] take the sacrament because. Because she's violating the honor code.
Guest [01:31:02] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:31:03] Like not having sex, but just violating curfew.
John Dehlin [01:31:06] Yeah. Yeah. That's weird.
Samantha Shelley [01:31:10] That's real.
Gerardo Sumano [01:31:12] Do you want to read Annie? There's just a couple more.
Samantha Shelley [01:31:15] I worked for the BYU Provo on Campus computer labs from 2006 to 2008. And part of our job was monitoring sites people visited and reporting violations to the honor code office.
Gerardo Sumano [01:31:25] Wait, okay, stop there. Because that was crazy. Like you have BYU employees. Like BYU is paying people to monitor students for honor code violations.
John Dehlin [01:31:38] So if they're on the student. If they're on the university supplied computers looking at porn, basically there are other BYU students monitoring, being paid by with tithing dollars monitoring student computer access.
Samantha Shelley [01:31:53] Probably not just porn.
John Dehlin [01:31:54] Yeah, to then turn them into the honor code if they're looking at porn. Yeah, probably.
Samantha Shelley [01:31:57] Like a queer friendly blog post could
John Dehlin [01:31:59] do it, you know, Or.
Gerardo Sumano [01:32:00] Well, we're going to read what.
John Dehlin [01:32:02] Or Mormon stories or ex Mormon Reddit.
Samantha Shelley [01:32:03] Yeah. YouTube.com self on the shelf. Patreon.com is crazy. What could get you. We had software to remotely monitor every computer in the labs and supervisors could view all the labs. I once turned a man in for viewing tons of Victoria's Secret and other women's lingerie clothing sites late one evening in the Benson building. He could have been married and buying it for his wife, but he was the only one in the lab and seemed to be trying to do this discreetly. Of course, it felt wrong to me because it was clearly sexual. I had to confront him and let him know he was being reported.
Samantha Shelley [01:32:34] He didn't refute my assertion, and at the time I explained it away by assuming he was hoping to get caught because he needed help. Gh, I really thought I was doing my job and even helping this guy spiritually. I have no idea what he had to go through, but I regret what I did.
John Dehlin [01:32:48] What do you think, Sammy?
Samantha Shelley [01:32:49] Hopefully he didn't get sent to Jody Hildebrandt. That's a real pipeline that did exist, you know.
John Dehlin [01:32:57] Yeah. That thing telling on other students is so gross.
Samantha Shelley [01:33:01] Yeah. And it really was rampantly encouraged at every level.
Gerardo Sumano [01:33:06] The people are getting paid to do that.
John Dehlin [01:33:08] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sierra.
Gerardo Sumano [01:33:13] Sierra, So I think this one. Sammy, you should.
Samantha Shelley [01:33:17] I was engaged in sexual activities with someone I was dating at the time. We never had sex. I told my bishop on a Sunday and was told I would walk into the honor code office the next day and self report. I did as I was told and it was all downhill from there. In the end, a timeline of my BJ's was created in PowerPoint.
John Dehlin [01:33:34] Okay, does that mean blowjobs? Is it?
Samantha Shelley [01:33:36] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:33:36] So BYU employees made a timeline PowerPoint of the chronology of this women's blowjobs.
Samantha Shelley [01:33:43] Yeah, just a simple BJ PowerPoint and broadcast in a conference room in front of myself, my bishop, an honor code counselor, and the dean of students. Although I was prompted several times, we need this PowerPoint. Where is it? Can we find it? I was prompted several times to name the man involved. Never did.
John Dehlin [01:34:06] This needs to be like a short film submitted to the Academy Awards of, like, the BYU blowjob PowerPoint honor code.
Samantha Shelley [01:34:14] We. I'm really glad we're holding space.
Gerardo Sumano [01:34:17] I've heard this before where, like, they do a timeline of your owner code violations for you. I've heard this while I was at ua, Idaho, but you should read the other part.
Samantha Shelley [01:34:27] It's like a slide. That's like day one. This was just the tip experience. Right? But it still felt worth putting on. Here I was on the fence of being kicked out, but instead was put on probation because the PowerPoint slapped so hard. The zoom in effect's really gone. Only because my bishop pleaded for me to not get kicked out. He later said he had no idea this would happen when he told me to self report. And he vowed to never give anyone the counsel he gave me ever again. I was student teaching in kindergarten at the time and was required to take a service class, which put me at 21 credit hours. I also had to read a talk and meet with the honor code counselor weekly to discuss it. A hold is placed on all of my academic records until this was completed.
John Dehlin [01:35:09] I just can't imagine adults monitoring other adults blowjobs and making PowerPoints about it and then like counseling with them to reduce their sexual behavior.
Samantha Shelley [01:35:22] And it just feels like once you've done the PowerPoint in the room full of people like, that's your. That's your repentance, surely. But then to have to keep going after that.
John Dehlin [01:35:33] Yeah, that's pretty terrifying and ridiculous and slightly Humorous. If it's not you that it's happening to. I guess. Yeah. All right.
Gerardo Sumano [01:35:45] All right. So this is the last one. Okay.
John Dehlin [01:35:47] And since you went to byu, Idaho. Gerardo.
Gerardo Sumano [01:35:50] Yeah. And trigger warning for this one because
John Dehlin [01:35:53] there's some suicidal behavior that might be triggering something. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:35:59] Yeah. I had a roommate who struggled with same sex attraction. So this is a woman. Right. She had gone to the bishop about it and was trying to pray it away. She never acted on it to my knowledge. She became horribly depressed and began slitting her wrist and overdosing on ibuprofen and Tylenol.
Gerardo Sumano [01:36:19] One of my other roommates and I took away her knives and ibuprofen and Tylenol. But one day she took a major dose of Tylenol in what I believe was a suicide attempt. She refused to let me call 911 or take her to the ER. I didn't know exactly how much she had taken. I was a nursing student at the time and was pretty naive and dumb. I did know that Tylenol wrecks the liver, though. So I had her sleep on the floor next to my bed during the night so I could wake up periodically and check her vitals.
Gerardo Sumano [01:36:50] She did end up having a stomach ache, but did fine through the night. My room roommate, who was extremely volatile, work late at a fast food restaurant, came home around midnight and found her on our bedroom floor asleep and threw a fit. She turned us both into the honor code office for what I presume was a lesbian activity.
Gerardo Sumano [01:37:10] I, a 4.0 student who never broke any rules and has severe social anxiety, got called into and to plead my case before the dean of students so I could stay in school. I cried and told them exactly what had happened. And the dean, who actually knew my dad and miraculously, miraculously believed me. But my honesty threw my lesbian roommate under the boss. And she got shipped back home to what seemed like an abusive and horribly horrible family. She's deleted all social media and I
Guest [01:37:41] never heard from her again.
Gerardo Sumano [01:37:42] I think about her often, and we worried that she finished her suicide attempt. I'm still so angry about this 12 years later. I would have called 911 straight away and got her to the hospital. I should have done things so much better.
John Dehlin [01:37:56] Yeah, and this can be very serious and dark.
Gerardo Sumano [01:37:59] But she gets turned in because she has her roommate sleeping in the on the floor so she can check her vitals. And then she gets called into the honor code office for lesbian conduct.
John Dehlin [01:38:13] Yeah, that's dark, all right. Well, thank you, Gerardo, for pulling this together for Julia. Just to summarize, like, let's just. I'll. I'll play kind of like, sort of like host here and just say, is this a win for the church or is it not a win? One argument is it's a win for the church because it. It helps show that Mormons aren't as uptight, that Mormons swear like everybody else, that it helps let everyone know what's real. It takes out of obscurity into the light. The BYU students swear. The BYU athletes swear. The BYU is pretty much like every other university in a lot of ways.
John Dehlin [01:38:54] The church is going to not punish this dude, probably. And so that's going to let people know all throughout BYU in the church that swearing is probably not that big of a deal. And in the end, this is going to be a good thing for relaxing BYU standards and relaxing Mormon puritanical standards. So that's. I'll put that up as a straw man. Samantha, what's your reaction?
Samantha Shelley [01:39:20] I mean, I wouldn't. I think it's a who's to say what's good or bad situation. We can't really know, like, the net outcome of this. To me, it doesn't feel like that much of a win when it's just like the. The wealthy, you know, like the protected elite are being given this privilege like that does. That isn't groundbreaking. But I see what you're saying, that it is kind of something clearly other members of the church have softened to. So, yeah, I don't really know. But, yeah, it doesn't feel like any kind of major win. And it's also revealing of, you know, how. How good Mormonism is at getting people to, you know, be hypocrites. And. And that's hard because if you can't recognize your own hypocrisy or the hypocrisy in the organization, well, then you're gonna, like, stay psychologically dependent on it, and that's a problem.
John Dehlin [01:40:13] Okay, cool. Gerardo, closing thoughts.
Wrapping Up and Final Reflections
Gerardo Sumano [01:40:20] Yeah, I think it's hard to say whether it's good or bad, but to me, it was important to highlight the. How members of the church can be hypocritical sometimes in defending some kind of behavior, but being big, you know, bigoted and condemning other behavior, which, you know, if you go into what Jesus taught, I don't think Jesus would use arbitrary rules like. Like that for people who, you know, oh, this person puts. Puts BYU and the church in a good light because, you know, he's winning football games, so we're gonna go and protect him. But then go and attack people who we think make the church look bad. Like the more, you know, Mormon wives in on Hulu or LGBT people or whatever.
John Dehlin [01:41:18] But yeah, I guess the only other thing that I, you know, if I'm trying to be fair and look at this, like anytime you try and teach a standard, a higher standard of living, higher standard of ethical living, of moral living, whatever, you're going to open yourself up to accusations of being a hypocrite. But I don't think that is a reason. The, the risk of hypocrisy is a reason for not having standards. There's a, I wonder if there's a place for trying to elevate our standards.
Samantha Shelley [01:41:57] Yeah, but I think it's just such a. It like, just like having high standards as like a general thing. I mean there's a whole spectrum of that. Like, you know, not swearing, just like arbitrarily banning certain words even if someone, you know, says them in the spirit of comedy or, or a way that there's no harm to anyone for them saying the F word versus like, you know, like, I think that. Right. Speech is important. I think it's important to be honest as much as possible, which the church isn't. I think it's important to be like compassionate and tolerant and not, you know, there's all these, there's all these ways you can go with like talking about high standards.
Samantha Shelley [01:42:40] And I don't really see the evidence that the Mormon Church has high standards in the sense that like you can actually back them up with sort of like moral ethical rigor in a lot of cases.
Guest [01:42:53] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:42:53] Like a standard just in and of itself isn't worth anything. It's like what's the, what does the, what's the outcome of that standard existing?
John Dehlin [01:43:04] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:43:04] What's the standard in place? Who is it in place for? Who gets to bypass the standard? Like those are all the real questions. Not just like it's good to have high standard. Like it's good to have a like strong moral character. But it's just like so arbitrary within the church. What that even looks like.
John Dehlin [01:43:22] Well, so, so again, I'm just kind of channeling my orthodox Mormon self. But like the fact that the church teaches alcohol is bad means there's going to be less alcoholics in Mormonism. The.
Samantha Shelley [01:43:34] That's it.
John Dehlin [01:43:35] The.
Samantha Shelley [01:43:35] I don't know, maybe America has the highest alcohol abstinence rate of any non Muslim country and has the highest alcoholism rates. Like it. Abstinence doesn't always equal.
John Dehlin [01:43:49] Yeah.
Samantha Shelley [01:43:51] Because repression can cause more Dysfunction.
John Dehlin [01:43:55] The backfire effect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know there's this prescription drug abuse problem, for example, in Mormon culture.
Samantha Shelley [01:44:03] And there's a. Because people are, like, suffering a lot because they're isolated by American culture and they're in pain. And you can make the case for, like, in Europe, where drinking is more. More exclusively part of, like, a social ritual and of like, community bonding that's much more like life enhancing and actually makes them less prone to addiction.
John Dehlin [01:44:23] Yeah, well, certainly the porn prohibitions are. Are backfiring, so we can strike that out. What about.
Gerardo Sumano [01:44:30] And we talked about the big. At the beginning, like, the strict prohibition against, you know, are having this high standards and prohibition against swear words make these athletes potentially be more. You use swear words even more when they have a loophole, then come when you compare them to other football. What about players?
John Dehlin [01:44:52] What about STIs and teenage, let's say, unwed pregnancies? Do we know if they're higher or lower per capita?
Samantha Shelley [01:44:59] In Utah, we know that abstinence only sex education, which is what Mormonism and Utah generally teaches, doesn't work and leads to higher pregnancies and STIs.
John Dehlin [01:45:08] Really?
Samantha Shelley [01:45:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:09] Yeah, that's right. Natasha's talked about that. All right, so basically, Samantha says, no standards. We should have no standards in society. Basically.
Samantha Shelley [01:45:18] No, I.
John Dehlin [01:45:18] Morality is dead. Declares.
Samantha Shelley [01:45:20] All I think about is like, what are these. What are the actual things that make a person, like moral character, morality?
John Dehlin [01:45:28] She hates virtue. She hates, you know, anything good. Basically, all good things.
Samantha Shelley [01:45:36] All she cares about school and her mom and her friends, and it's disgusting.
John Dehlin [01:45:42] I'm kidding. That's interesting. All right, well, that's all I got. This is awesome. Samantha, thanks for coming, like, 15 minutes before.
Samantha Shelley [01:45:49] Yeah, thanks for having me. Not to miss my football game for this, but it was worth it. It's a great discussion.
John Dehlin [01:45:54] Football. Do you mean British football?
Samantha Shelley [01:45:57] Yes, with the feet.
John Dehlin [01:45:58] Do you follow soccer?
Samantha Shelley [01:46:00] No, I'm just joking.
John Dehlin [01:46:02] It was good. No, I was just making sure. Gerardo, thanks for making this happen.
Gerardo Sumano [01:46:07] Yeah, of course.
John Dehlin [01:46:08] And Julia, thanks also for your part and. Looks like Maven's in the comments now. Thanks to everyone who helped make this episode possible. Do we hate do we love BYU or hate byu? I still kind of love byu. Am I bad?
Samantha Shelley [01:46:22] You are bad. Yeah. There's something fundamentally wrong and broken about you that can never be fixed.
Gerardo Sumano [01:46:27] What does it mean to love byu? What? What do you love about byu?
John Dehlin [01:46:30] I don't know. Rise and shout. The Cougars are out.
Samantha Shelley [01:46:33] Kind of the base tribalism of it. Really speaks to you still. And that's so fine. You have to unchain that. But weren't you rooting for Utah when I saw you before that big game?
John Dehlin [01:46:42] Yeah, I love UT State. I love the Iwa Tunaggi basketball game last night. Aggies beat Wyoming. I just love any Utah University, basically. Is that bad?
Samantha Shelley [01:46:52] Yeah. That's nice.
John Dehlin [01:46:53] Is that okay?
Gerardo Sumano [01:46:54] I think that's great.
John Dehlin [01:46:55] Is that okay, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:46:56] Especially if, you know, if the BYU players are rogue Mormons, that's. That's something to look up to.
John Dehlin [01:47:07] Yeah. Tattoos are okay now, right? Like byu. BYU football players have tattoos. And that's not. Not a problem. That's new. Right.
Samantha Shelley [01:47:15] So I bet we'll get gay marriage any day now. Like, we are edging it.
Gerardo Sumano [01:47:19] That'll be fun.
John Dehlin [01:47:21] All right, well, go Cougars. Go Utes. Go Aggies. Go Wildcats. All the things. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Check out Zelf on the shelf. Donate to their Patreon. Keep Tanner and Samantha fed for at least another month. Month, correct.
Samantha Shelley [01:47:37] Yeah. Please.
John Dehlin [01:47:39] 2025 looms while you're at it. We really appreciate everyone who donates to Mormon Stories. This is giving week. Giving month. And if you want to also support us, if you value this type of programming and want to see continue, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. You can also subscribe to this episode, subscribe to the channel. Like. Like the channel. Share it, comment, and be one of our missionaries to the world. Right? Right, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:48:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:11] All right.
Samantha Shelley [01:48:12] And everyone's allowed to say one swear word tonight.
John Dehlin [01:48:15] Okay.
Samantha Shelley [01:48:15] Whether you're mor.
John Dehlin [01:48:17] I'll say damn. What will you say, Samantha?
Samantha Shelley [01:48:20] I will have to see. I. It will flow through me, I think.
John Dehlin [01:48:23] Do you want to say one in Spanish?
Gerardo Sumano [01:48:25] M.
John Dehlin [01:48:28] All right, Samantha, you're left.
Samantha Shelley [01:48:30] No, I'm not.
John Dehlin [01:48:31] She's not doing that.
Samantha Shelley [01:48:32] Sorry, John. It's in my contract. I can't swear on camera.
John Dehlin [01:48:35] You have puritanical Victorian purity standards. Basically.
Samantha Shelley [01:48:39] Yeah. I'm still a victim of purity culture.
John Dehlin [01:48:41] All right. All right. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks for live chat. It's been great to have you guys. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other, don't swear. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
One Response
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