Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 770

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. I'm very excited to have you joining us on this 18th of July 2017. We're broadcasting to you. For those of you joining us live live from Salt Lake City, Utah and couldn't be more excited for today's interview with Lori Lee Hall. Just to give maybe a tiny bit of background before we jump into the story, I was at a birthday party about a month ago and was celebrating. It was actually my friend Steve Urquhart's birthday at Jim debacis House and had the distinct pleasure of being able to meet Lori Lee for the first time. And at the time that I met her, actually she was about she told me she had just been excommunicated about two weeks previous. And so, you know, that was sort of sad and traumatic for me because I had experienced excommunication myself and that was touching to me. But I was also surprised and really intrigued. To learn a little bit more about Lori Lee's story, I'm going to make one quick technical switch. Okay, so as far as Lori Lee's story goes, she told me that she had served as LDS Church chief architect for many, many years, worked 20 years at LDS Church headquarters, that she had worked on many temples, maybe up to 40 temples during her time as chief architect, which again was really, really interesting to me. I have never interviewed someone for Mormon Stories that was an employee of church headquarters for so long, you know, right down in the central activities of the church. And then of course, I was very fascinated to learn that she had served as a stake president in her Tooele Stake after serving as bishop for eight years, and that that preceded her eventual excommunication. And not only was she excommunicated, she was excommunicated by her former first and second counselor who served under her when she was stake president, and by, I'm guessing, a Stake High Council that largely was comprised of people that she had worked with or maybe even called into the Stake High Council. So that was a Touching and important issue on many levels. Those of you who follow Mormon Stories regularly know that we have been doing a series all year long with transgender individuals within Mormonism. Those have been really important and powerful interviews. And, you know, it's worth mentioning that Lori Lee hall, you know, from the story that she's told me, she's always identified internally as female for as long as she can remember. And we're going to talk about that more in depth. But it has been recent where she has felt the ability or the desire or the freedom or whatever, she'll end up describing it to present as a woman. And that is a. That is a transition that has happened over the past year. And so one of the main reasons we wanted to talk about this on Mormon Stories is because it's an issue that affects many, many Mormons and post Mormons. And it's also, you know, a topic that we lack, frankly, I. We lack education on. And so the more we can understand issues, LGBT issues, transgender issues, I think the healthier and the safer and the happier society we're all going to be. And so that's going to be a topic that we discuss as well today. And so I'm really thrilled to have people joining us live. Right now we have 73, 74 people joining us live. And we want to welcome everyone who's joining us. And we want to invite people to post any questions they have to the Facebook feed because we would love to have a bit of an interactive experience where those of you who have questions can ask. Now, I should maybe add one last qualifier stipulation about this interview, and that's that Laurie Lee still identifies as a believing Mormon in many, many ways. She still holds her participation in the church as sacred. She still has many beliefs that an orthodox Mormon would have. Maybe she has some unorthodox beliefs as well.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:05:56] We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] But her experiences in the church and her beliefs are very sacred to her. And I sense that she has still a lot of love and gratitude for her time working for the church. And so for those of you who are hoping that this will be a session where the LDS Church gets bashed, that's not what this interview is going to be about. And for those of you who are hoping to hear the inside nitty gritty about the temple and the temple ceremony and the finances around the temple, you'll be disappointed as well, because that's not what this interview is about. This, this interview is about Lori Lee standing in her truth and standing in her faith. And that's going to be what this is about. And mostly it's going to be about her journey, her story as a convert to the church, as a Mormon and as a woman. And so that is my opening sort of introduction to this interview with Lori Lee. So without any further ado, Laurie Lee hall, welcome to Mormon Stories. Thank you so much for being willing to join us today.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:13] Good morning, John. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to talk with you, and I appreciate the introduction. Good points.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] All right. Any just for the education of our listeners. Did I maybe, could I have said anything a little bit better that you would want to correct?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:27] Absolutely. But let's not correct it right now. We'll correct it as we go.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Okay?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Okay, so I think it's interesting to begin just by talking about, kind of talking about your experience as a convert to the church. So if you don't mind, take us back to your early years. Talk to us about what we should know about your early years and then how that leads to you joining the church.

Laurie Lee's Early Life and Gender Identity

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:58] Okay. Really, if we're going to weave the gender identity experience and the church experience together, and those do weave together in my life. So I'll try to bring you down through that journey. As John mentioned, I have always identified as female. And identifying really suggests more than I think the word alone carries. It's that internal notion that that was who I was and that was a part of my cognitive understanding of myself since I was at least five years old, continued consistently and persistently with me throughout my childhood and teen years.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Now, Laurie Lee, you told me a beautiful story about your mother and how what she told you when you were five about your name. Are you comfortable sharing that?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:09:02] I am. And chances are, if their link worked, they may be listening. My parents may be listening. So my recollection is it might not have been as early as 5, but maybe more around the time that I was about 7. But already very cognizant of the fact that I was female, but being identified and raised as male for whatever reason, mom shared with me that had I been assigned female at birth or identified as female at birth physically, that the name they chose for me was Lori, and that after a name that my father's mother had and that they both liked, and that was extremely special to me to know that that was who they intended me to be. And I immediately adopted that name as a young child as the name of my identity as my Persona, as who I am. And so when the time came, some almost 50 years later, to legally change my name. There was never any question as to what it would be. It was the name that my parents chose for me.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Beautiful. Okay, so do you remember dissonance as a child having been. Is it okay to say assigned a gender, Assigned the male gender, but feeling inside like you were knowing inside that you were. Laurie, do you remember feeling dissonance as a child?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:10:38] Absolutely. Although clearly had a child of that age and in that time frame, there weren't words of vocabulary to describe that. But that dissonance, as I look back. As I look back and consider personal experiences and feelings on through the years of childhood, clearly the incongruence, if you will, was very apparent to me. Even my dreams were filled with dreams of me as female. It was who I was, and it wasn't anything that I really even questioned as a child, because it was just natural to me.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] And did you. Did you ever, you know, did you ever talk to your parents about it? Did you ever. Did you ever say to your parents, hey, there's been a mistake here. There's a problem? Did you even feel comfortable. Comfortable doing that?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:11:36] No. I think that it's very common for people who feel that kind of distance in their life as young people, at least back in that day and age, to also feel accompanying shame and a recognition that those feelings may not be at all appropriate, that clearly I was getting strong messages that you're a boy, you're raising, you're being raised as a boy, you're going to do boy things and dress like a boy and so forth. I never, to answer the actual question, I never spoke those things. And certainly as I began to get older and into my teen years, it became very apparent that it would not be comfortable or safe to bring those feelings to the surface or share them with anyone.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] This would have been in kind of what decade that you were.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:34] So I was born in the early 60s. So these things were going through my mind in the late 60s, early 70s, at this time frame.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] And again, you were in what city?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:45] In rural Massachusetts.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] Rural Massachusetts.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] And was it conservative? There was a liberal. How would you have described the kind of socioeconomic, cultural environment there?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:57] It was. It was hard for. It's hard for me to look back and say as a child, what was. Was it conservative? It certainly wasn't Berkeley in the late 60s.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Right.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:13:06] It was. It was probably more like the second version of the 50s in a small rural town, you know, relatively conservative.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:13:16] Yeah. In my opinion, looking back.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] And so even though the late 60s and the early 70s were happening even though Woodstock was happening kind of around where you were, you know, the Beatles came and gone, Rolling Stones, all sorts of countercultural movements, it's not safe to say that you felt safe to kind of. I'm sure we'll talk about. Like what? How would issues around transgender individuals even have been discussed, if discussed at all, during, let's just say, your teen years,

Laurie Lee Hall [00:13:50] early to mid teen years. Of course, there's no existence of the Internet. I don't recall anything on television or in any other media that would have brought those issues to my attention. I really felt very alone in my feelings. I couldn't imagine that anyone else felt the same way. I think it's probably true that New Englanders have a tendency to not speak of certain things and be a little circumspect with regard to two feelings or these kinds of issues. It wasn't. It just did not feel safe to ever speak of such things or even to know how to form the sentences to explain them.

Childhood Bullying and Social Experiences

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Did you ever experience being bullied as a kid or mistreated or treated differently? Or would kids have sense that there was this cognitive dissonance going on inside of you, or were you able to hide it?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:14:50] I don't think I hid it all that well. I did experience a fair amount of bullying. Found myself in quite a few fights, having to defend myself frequently, particularly in junior high school and high school. It was an extremely uncomfortable experience through those six years. Socially and personally for me, it was not pleasant.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] I'm so sorry. What were as a kid? Tell us a bit what you were like. What did you like to do? What were your interests, your hobbies, your friends, your social experiences? Just talk about what you were like.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:15:39] Yeah. I was always an artist and began drawing at a very young age and spent a lot of time relatively cloistered in my room, at my desk, drawing and creating art and pictures of a number of different things. I began drawing house plans as a young teen and really immerse myself into arts and crafts and those types of things. I guess I was pretty isolated socially and other than participating in scouting as a youth, boy scouting that otherwise, I think I was kind of a loner and quite satisfied to. To be involved in my own personal projects.

Conversion to the LDS Church

John Dehlin [00:16:33] Okay, let's talk about your conversion to the church.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:16:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] When did that happen?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:16:38] So interweaving at the same time, where was I on my gender journey as well, because I think the two relate. Looking backwards. At least my teen years, I had extremely high levels of gender dysphoria and found myself desperate to become the young woman that my body was all of a sudden telling me wasn't ever going to happen. Puberty, you know, ran contrary to my dreams and visions for myself. That must have been terrifying. It was, very much so. And the more mature I became, the more terrifying, to use your word, is a very good word, that that whole experience became. But as I graduated high school and began to prepare to leave home and to go to college, I had got to the point where I was so ashamed of the way that I felt and so ready to feel differently that I saw the opportunity of leaving home and going to college as an opportunity to start life new. And part of that was a very conscious decision on my part to take this female identity that I was so familiar with and somehow divorce myself from it, box it up, if you will, and bury it deep within myself or within the ground, whatever metaphor seems to fit. And so I made the conscious decision that that part of me was not going to exist anymore, and I left for college. And upon getting to college, I was also introduced to classmates who were Latter Day Saints and was taught the gospel and had the opportunity to receive the missionary lessons and ultimately chose to be baptized and to begin to participate fully in the church.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] Do you remember what it was about the missionaries or their message that really grabbed you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:19:01] The notions of eternal family and of the reality of a loving personal God who was our Father, understanding the workings of the atonement, all of those things really resonated with me. And I think, in addition, given my commitment to try to live as it appeared I needed to, the church seemed like a great vehicle to learn to become the male adult that I felt I needed to be. Being involved in an elders quorum and receiving priesthood ordinances and the priesthood, it just seemed like a great vehicle to help me resolve my issue of never again feeling female.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Oh, that's striking me as very powerful because on the one hand, you were trying so hard to fit in and to be what you felt like society wanted you to be. And the church, the Mormon Church, provided you an important support for that. But at the same time, that wasn't who you really wanted to be. And so this church that you associated with the loving Heavenly Father and eternal families and that you were feeling really strongly about was aiding you and reinforcing you towards being who you didn't feel like you really were, that feels very conflicting.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:20:44] Right? But remembering that, conflicting, but at the time felt very much like what I needed to do. It's amazing, John, what we can be willing to do in Order to fit in, to feel like we really belong, that there's acceptance, that. That we're normal, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] So you're, you're. I'm guessing you have happy thoughts when you think about your time those early years in the church?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:21:20] Oh, absolutely. I was extremely enthusiastic about what I was, was into doing and my experiences and friendships there. That whole process was the positive thing that I was seeking. And the more I immersed myself, the less I felt awkward or inappropriate or wrong or shamed or bullied. Conformance can be a powerful equalizer, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Yeah. So was this a Rensselaer Polytech when you converted?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] That's a top notch school. I just want to say thank you. Right.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:08] It is. It's in the day and it's still the case. It's fairly exclusive. Architectural and engineering Science school. I was in the architectural program there. I joined the church when I was a freshman and left between my third and fourth years of my five year degree and served the mission in Buenos Aires, Argentina, returning in my fourth to take on my fourth and fifth years of the architectural program. So all of that professional training was woven in together with this experience of being in the church and being that ultimately professional male that I was trying to become.

Mission to Argentina

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Were you in Argentina when Peron was there?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:23:00] It was just after the Falkland Islands conflict with Great Britain. Okay. We were the first missionaries allowed back into the country from North America. It was a very conflicted time for the Argentine people. There had been a number of military coups and there was a lot of corruption and difficulty in the government of the week, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] And how was your mission experience?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:23:30] I had positive overall mission experience. It was a shortened mission back in the days when elders were called to serve 18 months. So I look back and feel quite comfortable about the fact that I served the term of a full time sister missionary. But in that short period of time, I had an opportunity to learn the language and to apply the things I had quickly learned as a new member of the church. And it kind of deepened my ability to communicate and to be outgoing to people and to be service oriented and leadership oriented. I was able to use a lot of artistic and graphic skills as well to create things to help convey the message, which was also quite fulfilling for,

John Dehlin [00:24:27] like the discussions with the members. We did a lot of like, visual aids.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:24:32] Visual aids for not just the discussions, but for street contacting and preaching large scale in public parks and things. We made 8, 4 foot by 8 foot. I don't know if you'd call them billboards but they were large displays and basically had a mobile display of the discussions that we could carry into public parks.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] And you would draw them with your architecture skills?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:25:03] No, we created. We created them wholesale and sealed them under sticky plastic and they were finished presentation boards or paints, glued up pictures, the whole nine yards. It was fabulous. And it was a very successful project. So it was fun to be able to contribute that way because I had some training and skills that way.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Were members receptive? Were investigators receptive?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:25:32] At times we had my recollection as many as 25 people at a time standing at each of eight boards. So you can do the math. We were very careful to place these between significant commuters, rail stops where a lot, hundreds of thousands of people would pass. And so the natural curiosity, human curiosity, brought people to stand with each of us and allow us to present eight missionaries at a time to literally hundreds of people at a time.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] So I imagine lots of conversions or success, missionary success during that time.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:26:17] There were. Which. Which helped to kind of reinvigorate our missionary experience. Coming back after the war and trying to rejuvenate the work in the city of Buenos Aires was. Was an uphill battle when that project was still going, when I left to come home. And at that time, over 1200 referrals had been received from that project, from that project alone in the course of about three months.

Gender Journey During Mission and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Wow. Regarding your gender journey, I like that phrase. Is that an okay phrase to use?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:26:55] I think that's an okay phrase. Recognizing the fact that gender itself for me has not been malleable. It's been unchanged and unchangeable for me, gender being my identity as who I am. The journey is one of self acceptance and ultimately authentic presentation and authentic living. So that's the journey, as opposed to misperceiving that somehow I journeyed from male to female. Internally, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] Internally, you feel I was female all along? No, you've always been female. It was one of self acceptance. In terms of, like, what. Because if you knew it, what was

Laurie Lee Hall [00:27:38] there to accept that it would be all right to really. To let it be a part of openly who I am.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] To let it be fully who you are?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:27:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] Not just.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:27:52] Not just internally. Okay, got it. To have the. To overcome the fear and the shame and to cross the bridges of risk, if you will, associated with being true

John Dehlin [00:28:07] to that identity and then to express

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:12] it publicly and express it. Right, okay, right.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] So I love that. So when we talk about your gender journey, was there any extent to which, as a missionary, these, you know, your Dysphoria, if it's okay to say it came out or more pressure, or was it just in full suppression mode at the time?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:36] I think I was pretty much in full suppression mode at the time, trying to focus on the work at hand, the tasks before me and to. And to perform. I think looking back, high levels of performance for me was one way to gain acceptance as who I was. At that time, I was Elder hall, and if I performed at a high level, I would be accepted as that person. And I think that has carried. I've been always capable of high levels of performance, and I think that was my defense mechanism, if you will, for helping people to believe this presentation of mail that I was making.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] So for you, I'm imagining exact obedience as a missionary. I'm imagining working super hard, committed. Were there even leadership roles involved?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:29:48] Partly because we were the first missionaries back in a very small mission. I was called into leadership positions fairly early in my mission, giving baptism interviews as a district leader before I could speak the language, training another missionary before, really had been trained hardly myself. That happens a lot these days as the ranks of missionaries have grown. I served as a district leader a couple times and for a lengthy time as a zone leader. You know, those opportunities came partly because of the demographics of our mission, and I enjoyed being able to step into those roles. Would

John Dehlin [00:30:35] your gender dysphoria ever enter, at that point, your communication with your Heavenly Father? Would you have ever said, heavenly Father, why am I conflicted with this? Take this cup from me. Help. Help me. Were you praying for a miracle or even in your prayers to your Heavenly Father? Was your gender identity kind of suppressed?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:01] It was totally suppressed in my relationship with God at that time. We'll come back to that thought later on, because that was an important turning point for me when I finally allowed that conversation to take place with Heavenly Father. Yes, and we need to talk about that down the road. But it was another 30 years down the road that occurred. But at the time, I truly believed that suppression was the only proper thing to do.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Even with your Heavenly Father?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Did you feel like you had a close relationship with Heavenly Father?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:34] I did. And really, once I. Once I began that effort of personal prayer and personal preparation for the mission and all of those experiences developing a relationship with the Holy Spirit, it was felt very personal, very alive, and very real for me. And it has from nearly the beginning to now. To now. Including to now.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Yeah. If you. I didn't ask you this about your conversion, but if you had to describe kind of was there an epiphany. Did you take Moroni's promise and kneel down, read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, kneel down and pray? Was it just a social thing where the spirit or, you know, in meetings kind of crept in over time? How would you describe you coming to the events that led to you coming to maybe what you would have described as a very firm testimony?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:32:32] Right. Again, this is a. This is a very sacred experience to me and one that I've always held on to, actually. My first semester at Rensselaer, I wound up right towards the end of the semester in the institute infirmary with mononucleosis. And December in upstate New York, you know, is the German period of time. And so I was quarantined to protect me from all of the other six students. And once I finished my work for the semester, as the semester was drawing to a close, my friend who had given me a copy of the Book of Mormon, made sure that it got into my material that came to the infirmary with me. And with nothing else to do and being quarantined in the hospital bed essentially for several days, I began to read in the Book of Mormon, starting at the beginning, like we all do in First Nephi. And it wasn't very many chapters into the story of Lehi's family leaving Jerusalem and traveling in the wilderness that the Witness came to me that these people really did live, that this story was true. And it came to me so profoundly that. That I knew that the work was. Was true. And I had at that point a testimony of it. And I think I've always somehow innately adopted the process that once I know a truth, I know I need to act upon it. And so seeking out the missionaries to be taught and to receive baptism were natural extensions of the Witness that I had received.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] And it sounds like a very literal witness in terms of the Book of Mormon being exactly what it claims to be, a historical document, etc. That sounds very literal.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:30] It was to my young mind. I didn't even have the terminology to be able to say, you know, that was the Holy Ghost witnessing to me or bearing witness to me. I didn't even have those terms yet available to me. I just knew.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Yeah. Okay, so you serve. Anything else you want to share about your mission before we talk about kind of post mission life?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:55] Yeah, no, I think that covers. That covers that well enough.

First Marriage and Distinguishing Gender Identity from Attraction

John Dehlin [00:34:59] Okay, so you graduate from. Is it rs?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:35:03] Rpi.

John Dehlin [00:35:04] Rpi. You graduated from rpi.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:35:07] Right. Actually, upon arriving home to kind of tie things in, I also met my then Future spouse was a member of the ward that I returned back home to when. When I went back to school for my fourth year and we dated and shortly thereafter married between my fourth and fifth years of school. And was there institute back then. We had an institute that combined students from all over several counties in upstate New York that could get together in Albany for institute. And we actually met, she and I, in sacrament meeting of the ward where I had joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:35:50] What'd you love about her?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:35:53] Almost immediately. She was my best friend and the person that I felt most comfortable being with and sharing things with.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] That's nice.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:36:09] Yeah. And I think we described the fact that I think we both felt and we actually developed a strong friendship before we began to seriously date. These are handy. Thank you. And I think I may have been a little slower to wrap my head around the idea that dating was the right thing to do, but about a foundation of deep friendship was really how we started.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] And let's see. I guess it's always sensitive to talk about feelings of attraction, and it's really important. And you can educate us better than I can about the difference between gender identity and sexual attraction. Is there anything you're comfortable sharing or think would be useful to share about your attractions versus your gender identity during this time period?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:37:15] Sure. And it's very appropriate to bring up the fact that one's gender identity, who one feels themselves to be, is a completely distinct issue from who one is attracted to sexually or, you know, in terms of developing relationships. They're two entirely different subjects. The. The fact that the T in LGBT is together with in the acronym, I think, tends to blur the notion in the minds of many that somehow they're the same. They couldn't be more separate. But in saying that individuals who feel gender variance could land anywhere on the spectrum of sexual attraction and we could do all of the pairings of how that could work.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] Are you comfortable sharing what it was for you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:38:19] It's. And I've shared this with. With a few, so now I'm about to share it publicly. But I had a schoolgirl crush on my best male friend growing up, and he never knew it at the time, although I shared that with him more recently. I also had a girl that I spent a fair bit of time with in high school for a while that was a good friend, but I had no attraction to her at all. So I think as a teen, I was really feeling somewhat attracted to males and a little bit stymied in a notion that I could be attracted to females

John Dehlin [00:39:07] that would have been actually heterosexual.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:39:09] Heterosexual, yeah. For me, it was. Although it compounded the fact that a lot of folks, a lot of my peers in high school considered me to be gay. I even considered me gay to be gay, and questioned a lot of that, but not out loud. But by the time, you know, my mission was over and I had suppressed my female identity to the point that we've described and served a mission and was deeply entrenched in the program of mission, marriage, family. You know, the church is, you know, standard for young men, if you will. It became very clear to me that a relationship with a worthy young woman was the right choice. And it's important to recognize that I deeply love my spouse. I did then and even more deeply now. And so. And so, despite my feelings as a youth, my lived experience is what this profound and wonderful relationship with my spouse, which it doesn't get a label other than a very deep and happily committed marriage.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] So love comes first.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:40:52] Yeah, it, at least for me, it trumped. It trumped other things, other labels, other considerations.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] And most importantly, you were best friends. Right. Like, isn't that maybe.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:41:11] That was huge. That was huge.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] Part of a healthy, happy marriage.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:41:16] That was huge for us. Still is important to note that this month will celebrate our 32nd anniversary of our marriage. And despite all that's occurred, we're still together.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Beautiful. Do you want to share her name or do you not want to share her name?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:41:37] I've chosen not to today.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] Okay, that's great. That's good. I just wanted to be respectful.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:41:42] Yeah. Thank you.

Marriage, Temple, and Inner Turmoil

John Dehlin [00:41:44] So, okay, so you end up marrying and marrying in the temple.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:41:51] Married in the Washington, D.C. temple.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:41:54] Which was our temple at the time. Children came.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] What year was your marriage?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:00] 85. 1985.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:02] Yeah. Children came quickly. A son born in 86, a daughter in 88, and a daughter in 89. And had a very fun little family right from the start.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] So your early years were where? With the family?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:18] In upstate New York. We settled in Saratoga Springs in New York. I was practicing architecture in a firm in Albany. We stayed in that general area where I had been educated, and all of our four oldest children were born there. And I really had, at the time, no intention of ever leaving the Northeast. It was. It was home for me. And from the perspective of also serving in the church, it was a wonderful place to provide service and leadership as well.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] And then what. Anything about your story you'd want to share before you going to work for the LDS Church?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:43:14] Part of my experience in living with a. With a woman being Married to my spouse and living with her unexpectedly significantly compounded my feelings of gender dysphoria. I hadn't anticipated how much being with her and living with her 247 would be triggering to me, if you will, from the perspective that she was what I wanted to be. And so although I had for several years successfully suppressed those feelings, being together in the same house, in the same room and sharing so many things made it extraordinarily difficult again. And the first 10 years of our marriage, I really struggled and suffered with those. The recurring those feelings.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Kimberly Anderson talked about how incredibly difficult the birth of her children was because she envied, wanted to be wife and wanted to exactly what did. Can you relate to those feelings?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:44:37] Absolutely. I had that in spades. Caring for the newborn, all of those things that were her role I coveted terribly. But we never spoke of that again. It was. I was still hiding that, but feeling it very, very deeply and to the point of. Envy and jealousy, you know, detrimentally,

John Dehlin [00:45:13] you would lash out at

Laurie Lee Hall [00:45:18] it was extremely hard. And I know that how I was handling it wasn't very positive. It culminated, and telling this part of the story, because it's what brought us to Utah, it culminated in a severe reaction as well to my ability to go to work and to provide for the family. And the stress of filling the male role as provider became so overwhelming to me that in early 1996, I became very depressed and suicidal. Came very close to taking my life at that time, experienced a significant break and was unable for several weeks to think clearly or function effectively. Left my employment immediately at that time and never returned because I seriously couldn't return. Met with therapists at the time. I wasn't able to express effectively that I was significantly struggling as a male. That was the truth. I couldn't put it into words, couldn't share it, couldn't be open about it.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Did you know that was going on inside it? Did you know?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:46] Absolutely. I remember within the same paragraph where I determined I was going to take my life was the convincing to me, convincing thought that I can no longer fill this male role in that same thought.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] And how old were you at the time?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:06] 33.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] You're 33 years old. How many children?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:10] Four.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Four children, 33 years old. Wanting to take your life because you could no longer.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:17] I'd done all that I could with that. And because I couldn't explain it to others, they were unable to determine what on earth was going on. And the best thing that my therapist at that time could offer was that we needed A change, change of profession, change of scenery, change of location, change of something. But change needed to take place. But unfortunately, we didn't identify the correct change that was really needed for me personally.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] But it got you out of the hole first season. And just real quickly, was there any point at which you were able to. So up to the age 33, you were able to confide in either your wife or a church leader or even your therapist?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:09] No. This is. This is the challenge is that at that time, I was still so cloistered in that truth that it wasn't going to get shared. It was too dangerous to do so, and yet the reality was, it was so dangerous not to.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] And I don't. I don't care what it is, really, whether it's being gay, lesbian or bisexual, transgender, whether it's looking at pornography and masturbating, whether it's being a closet doubter. My sense is, as someone with a degree in psychology, graduate degree in psychology, is that living in the closet, living in a box, hiding who you are, living a double life, maybe we could say, is nothing other than toxic.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:03] It's toxic. It's extremely harmful to the physical body, to the emotional self, to the soul. It's extraordinarily harmful as it is all of what toxicity suggests.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Yeah. So how did you. How did you not take your life? Do you remember how you ended up not doing that?

A Moment of Deep Despair and Spiritual Renewal

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:31] Yeah. Two important thoughts entered my mind at the moment of deep despair. To paraphrase, I knew that Heavenly Father loved me.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] You know, your wife loved you, and you knew the Heavenly Father loved you.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:50] Yes. And that was enough to realize that there was hope, although I had nothing else to cling to. It was that bottom of the curve, if you will, when you are down to nothing left but the most core and basic truth, the love of spouse and the love of God prevented the wrong thing from happening that day because there was nothing left.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] Beautiful. I'm so glad.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:50:27] I'm so glad, too, because good things have happened since then.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] And this is again, age 33.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:50:33] Right. In 1996, We began putting things back together. I began trying to reassemble my mental and emotional health and made the choice to relocate. And I decided, having already done some interviewing with the church back in the Northeast, that I wanted to pursue, offering my services as an architect or project manager to. To the church, which ultimately led me to having interviews at church headquarters later that year and was able to obtain employment and move the family out in the fall of that year. And we've been in Utah now, these 21 years since.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] So when the. So when the church hires you on what. What is your role?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:32] I began actually working in. In the welfare system, welfare services, but was hired as an architect and project manager and worked on the development, the redevelopment of Welfare Square. So all of that, that was accomplished. I helped lead that project for welfare services. Later on, I worked as a project manager and a regional project manager in meeting house facilities, and eventually as a director of design and meeting house facilities, working on standard meeting house designs that ultimately went all around the world. And then in 2002, was asked to start looking at the processes for designing and building temples and

John Dehlin [00:52:21] putting aside for a second, the discussion about what you actually did for the church. We'll talk about that maybe in the next segment. Did your emotional health at all improve? Having that big change in setting, in context, and working for a different employer,

Called to Serve as Bishop

Laurie Lee Hall [00:52:41] it was refreshing to be in a different place and in a different environment and to have these new challenges. I think it was a renewal on my part to say, okay, here's an opportunity. It went very well getting us out here. Here's an opportunity for. For me to give it another good try, to give it a go. Shortly after we settled into our home, I was also called as the bishop of the new ward where we were living in this brand new neighborhood that was being built. And suddenly it was all right back into all of the. The great work and the great service and, you know, the growing family and all of those good things that were part of my original commitment to be that male person that my spouse needed me to be, that my family now, growing family, needed me to be, and that suddenly a congregation also needed from me.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] So that again strikes me really profoundly because you're, let's just say, 12 months away from having ended your life and now you're serving as the pastor of a congregation. What was that like for you to receive that call, knowing that just recently you had almost ended your life?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:54:19] I don't think I connected the two. It's so much easier to look backwards now with the passage of time and say that the distance between those two events was very short. It was a time of significant changes for us. And looking back, it's a lot shorter than it felt like at the time. But it was also quite reassuring that I had the worth to receive such an assignment and like everything that I have experienced, threw myself deeply into it, to perform at a high level, to be hit all the metrics of success, and to. And to do my very best. So it felt right at the time it felt like, okay, I've survived this, and I've come out on top, and I can make this happen. I can make this work.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] So I'm just trying to process the. The complexity because on the one hand, it's got to feel incredibly validating that you love Heavenly Father. You believe in Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father is validating. Showing his love, maybe in some ways expressing his love or support for you or acceptance of you by giving you this call and giving you this purpose and sense of mission. And of course, it's got to feel invigorating for you to now be able to throw your, like you said, this theme from your mission of service. And I don't want perfectionism. Is that okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:56:13] Phrase to say. And a drive to perform. Drive to perform, to be accepted.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Yeah. So you've got this drive to perform in some ways that can give you a sense of purpose and validation and hope. And again, you're feeling almost kind of the alpha male role in a ward. In a ward experience. So it's helping reinforce the gender role that you feel society expects from you

Laurie Lee Hall [00:56:43] in a major way.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] And at the same time, it could be viewed as one large act of intense, increased suppression.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:56:56] I agree.

John Dehlin [00:56:58] Is that how it was?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:56:59] Looking backwards? I think that's exactly what was going on. It was the recommitment to that act of suppression that I had done when I left for college and when I joined the church and served the mission that had unraveled to the point of significant despair just a year or two before. And yet it was. I was right back at it upon our arrival out here.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] And so. And so did you, as bishop, ever counsel with someone who was transgender or experiencing gender dysphoria or was gay or lesbian? Was that part of your bishop experience?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:51] Interestingly, it wasn't either my time while I was serving as bishop or stake president over those next 15 years, I never had that opportunity. It never presented itself. That's not to say there weren't individuals who were also closeted. It just never materialized. Never presented itself.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:58:16] I would have loved to have known how I would have responded, but I never found myself in that situation. It might have been very triggering for me.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] Right.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:58:27] But I would hope that I would have been sensitive and caring.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Right.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:58:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] A lot. A lot of people are wondering if you had to counsel with people either as bishop or stake president.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:58:41] Yeah. Yeah. It just turned out to be that that wasn't the case.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Right. Okay. So anything worth mentioning about were your. Would you have considered yourself just a orthodox, believing Mormon or did these difficulties, this complexity, make it so? Internally your beliefs about Mormonism were liberal or progressive or nuanced in any way or just unorthodox, or was internally, mentally, intellectually. Were you just as tbm true believing Mormon as they come?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:59:27] I think in many ways I appeared to be that obedient and very deliberate church leader. I know that my feelings became more progressive as time went on. I attempted in every way to serve as kind and loving as I could, which was my nature to do. But I know there were times where I was also very decisive and had to take difficult action. It's part of the burden of leadership that some people are going to be upset by the choices of their leaders. But I truly tried to to learn and understand what people were experiencing and just do my best. As far as my personal beliefs, I think I had both as a church leader and a church employee, a healthy sense, and I refer to it as a healthy sense of being able to separate my faith and testimony in the basic principles of the Gospel from the institutional workings of the church that I saw in both situations ecclesiastically and as an employee that I experienced, I could see the difference between those and really maintain my faith with what I felt was significant integrity and not have it feel damaged. So although my nature was to be very obedient, I think I also was very interested as a leader and as an employee to following the spirit and the spiritual guidance that I felt I was receiving for my callings and responsibilities and assignments and to speak the truth as I understood it, even though it might not have been popular or correctly consistent with what I may have been told to do. I've tried to live with that personal level of honesty and integrity where or truth is tantamount. The truth is I understand it and as it's been revealed to me. And yet I was also very sensitive to the fact that I didn't receive guidance or revelation for things beyond the scope of my calling or assignment.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] What do you mean by that?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:37] Simply that, that those who have assignments over, who had assignments over my responsibilities, had the right to direct that work.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] So you were able, it sounds like,

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:55] but I also had a healthy, a healthy amount of. I have a right to take that from there and then implement it according to the guidance I was receiving.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:03:05] You know, so there's a little bit of independent thinking going on there that I felt has always been spiritually guided.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Got it. Okay. So if there was complexity or nuance, it was in maybe a pragmatic realization that the institutional church wasn't going to be perfect and that it, it had flaws and that at times you could have that direct connection within your stewardship.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:03:36] Within my stewardship to make important decisions to do the things that were necessary and appropriate at the level of either the people or the projects that I was responsible for, and then to be totally transparent and accountable for those decisions as well. That's an important principle to me as well. If one's going to stand in their truth, they certainly need to own that and be accountable for, for those decisions and actions.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Beautiful. Okay, so I'm gonna just, just for a second notice that we've had a sustained audience of about 240 people and that's a really good audience for a live broadcast. And so many people are saying beautiful things. I'll just read some of the comments from our listeners. Richard writes, the pressure for perfection that the church demands is toxic. So he's expressing concern about perfectionism in the church. Dana writes, she is such a beautiful person. Donna writes, amazing journey. Jana writes, our stories change hearts. Thank you for sharing. Caleb says, amazing experiences. Becca writes, I'm amazed at your strength. Thank you so much for your courage and sharing your story. Sending love. Melissa writes, thank you for educating me, Laurie Lee. It's helping learn how to be more compassionate and kind. You have a friend in me. Brandon writes, thank you for your vulnerability, invisibility, sending love. So I just wanted to share a little bit of that with you. A lot of love out there from our listeners.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:05:21] That's so encouraging. I think I thank everyone for those kind thoughts.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. thank you very much.

Temple Experiences Before the Mission

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 771

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. And now what I'd like to do is kind of pick up on a part two of our discussion, if that's okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:00:48] Okay, certainly.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] So we've talked about your spiritual journey and we've talked about your family experiences and how you struggled with depression and even suicidal ideation, but how the church also, in many ways, was comforting to you. Your beliefs in your Heavenly Father and the church were very comforting to you, how you had that deep personal relationship with your Heavenly Father and consolation and the idea of eternal families. Your wife was your best friend and you were married to your best friend, even though you experienced, to some extent, maybe some envy around that which I hear is common. And again, the church and excellence within the church and in your job and in your family, I think was what gave you purpose, what gave you focus, what gave you tracks to follow in terms of fulfilling the gender identity expectations that were on you, and maybe in some ways helped you really suppress this dysphoria that you were feeling. So we've, we've covered that. We're now kind of in part two of this interview. And it's tricky because on the one hand, your time at church headquarters as chief architect over, you know, let's just say 40 temple projects and many other things, that's significant. And it was a significant part of who you were in your identity. At the same time, I know you're not the type of person to want to dish dirt that that's not what this interview is about, that's not who you are, and it's an important part of who you are. And obviously, as you've seen, lots and lots of questions have come in about all sorts of details about the temple. So acknowledging to our listeners that this isn't going to be a dirt dishing fest in any way, shape or form that Laurie still views her beliefs in the restoration and her experiences in the temple as sacred and her covenants made in the temple as sacred. I still think it would be interesting for however much you can, to talk about what it's like to be church employee and what was it like to be involved in building these buildings that are so incredibly sacred for the members? So what, you know, what things are you comfortable talking about? And again, if it's just the good, we'll take it. And if there's challenges or difficult things or even stories you want to share, we'll take that too.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:03:40] Okay, sounds good, John. Thank you. I think as kind of an umbrella statement, I always considered. Up close and personal, I always considered my assignments at church headquarters to be perhaps the very most sacred and highest opportunity for me as a Latter Day Saint architect to be able to perform, to have the privilege, the honor to do those things. Because of my deep feelings towards the purpose and the purposes of those several facilities, whether it be Welfare Square or the missionary training center or the temple that. I truly felt the highest purpose that I could serve based on my training professionally wasn't helping to build the physical kingdom in that way.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] You would have. You would have taken out your endowments before a lot of the modern changes had been made. And I'm curious if you're comfortable sharing what the temple meant to you, maybe in those first 10 years of membership, what your experience was like when you first without. Without you divulging anything uncomfortable or sacred in terms of violating the church's, you know, wishes in that regard or your own personal. What did the temple mean to you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:05:35] It was interesting as I received my mission call and was set apart as a missionary in Albany, New York, and being sent out to the missionary training center in Provo. I actually left on my mission unendowed, flew out of Logan Airport in Boston, set apart as a missionary, but not having received the endowment.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Wow.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:03] I never saw. I was already on my mission technically, and I had never seen an LDS temple until I landed at Salt Lake International and had seen the Salt Lake Temple from the air. And I never saw the inside of the temple until the next day when I entered the Provo Temple.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] You probably didn't have. Did you have warnings, heads up about what was going on?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:29] Very little. It was. This is a kind of an interesting and fun story to tell, and I think it's one that actually individuals who are called on missions, who live at great distances from temple, even today, also experience. So although my experience was taking place in 1982, the great distance that I lived from a temple at that time would make it very similar to a missionary that may be being called from parts of West Africa or parts of Asia at this time, who also leave on their missions, maybe surf their missions, without having received Temple ordinances. Because of the significant distances that's happened,

John Dehlin [00:07:12] There have been missionaries who have served.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:13] Oh, yes. In the past decade or so. Still has happened. I had no idea because of the difficulty and expense of getting to a temple. So in my case, I walked. First of all, I knew enough that I needed to go to a church distribution center and buy enough garments to last me for 18 months. And I had never seen the temple garment before. I was the only member of the church in my family. I had no reason to know what the temple garment looked like. I just knew I needed to purchase them. So with faith, I walked into the distribution center and said, I'm departing on my mission. I'm going to the Provo temple to receive my endowment this afternoon. I'm going in the missionary training center tomorrow morning. I need enough garments to help me through my mission, because there was no temple where I was going in Argentina at the time. And so we asked and answered a few questions that I didn't know how to answer. And I got my packages of garments, and I dutifully went over to the Provo temple and walked through the door with one set of garments in my hand.

Career as a Church Architect and Temple Builder

John Dehlin [00:08:22] I have to ask, how did the architect in you respond to your. To the appearance of the Provo temple? A lot of people are asking. I guess those temples get a bad rap sometimes, architecturally.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:08:34] That is true, and I think it's the passage of time has in some ways caused that to occur. When I attended the provo temple, it was only 10 years old at the time, and so it was still very much in vogue and very much a part of the architecture of the day.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] You liked it?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:08:57] I was much too overwhelmed by everything else I was confronting to do much of an analysis of building.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] You pressured inner architect.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:09:06] I don't do that now. And I tend to be much more observant and critical. But at the time, I was just simply overwhelmed by the experience of all of these things that were happening. I had never been in the west. I'd never been outside of New York and New England. And so I was on total cultural overload, Both environmentally as well as religiously. And so I walked into the temple and I handed my brand new recommend to the person at the desk and. And explained I was a new missionary. And their first question was, did you bring your escort? And I said, what's an escort? And so they quickly scrambled and found a fellow who was serving at the time as a bishop in North Carolina who happened to be visiting the temple that day and was in the Waiting room. And they convinced him to attend one more session in the temple and be my escort. I don't know his name. I don't know if I ever knew his name. Certainly never saw him again. But he helped me get through the temple that first time. And then the very next day I was in the missionary training center.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] And there were some rougher things about that early ceremony. Did those things. Were they rough for you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:10:30] No.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] You didn't experience the temple ceremony is.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:10:34] I just remember feeling very positive about everything and grateful for what had been provided to me and, you know, perhaps naively, just very happy to be there and to be able to do those things that I had looked forward really for some time to be able to do.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Beautiful. Okay, so fast forwarding then.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:10:59] So.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] So throughout the time you attended, how frequently, let's say during those first 15 years of your life or the time through becoming bishop, was the temple a regular part of your life, kind of regular temple attendance? Did you go there like many Mormons do, to get special answers to prayer? What role did the temple have in your life? Let's just say prior to becoming bishop.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:11:23] Yeah. So most of that time we lived in upstate New York. And as we were sealed in the Washington D.C. temple, it was our temple. In the years that we lived In New York, 450 miles was our. Was our trip. And with a young family, that meant other special considerations. We worked it out so that we could attend the temple two or three times a year.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] With a temple trip, right?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:11:53] With a trip and with the ward and stake. No, we did it individually. We did childcare, sharing with other young families in our ward. We'd take their children and they'd go away for a weekend, and then they take our children and we'd go away for a weekend. And it was a very different but very special experience for us to have that weekend away and to be at the temple. And it was once we got down there to use that time wisely. I would work typically on a Thursday, and then we'd meet up and get in the car and just drive straight through the night, sleep for a couple hours in the temple parking lot, and as early as the crack of dawn, go into the temple and spend the entire day within the temple and then sleep someplace that night and be back there and spend all day, typically on Saturday, until the temple closed, and then drive home Saturday afternoon so that Sunday morning we could be at our meetings.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Oh, wow.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:13:02] So it's a level of dedication that was not uncommon, but it was significant for us to do that and to be able to do it as many as three times a year.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] And do you remember spiritual experiences happening at the temple? Was it not that way for you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:13:19] Always has always been that way. For me, that's not always the case. It was for me and it was for us. I was also heavily involved in beginning to research my family history. I had lots of it being a convert available to me, and we did ordinances for many of my near ancestors during that time. My spouse and I also were down there enough that we were able to be trained as ordinance workers.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] And.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:13:51] And for the last year or two of our time in Washington, D.C. temple District, we were out of town ordinance workers in the temple as young people.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] That's cool. So fast forwarding now, at some point in the church's history, was it Gordon B. Hinckley who decided the temples were going to dot the globe?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:14:14] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] And I imagine that your experience, having lived so far from the closest temple, once you were working for the church as an architect and part of that revelation or process of building lots and lots of temples and bringing them to lots of people, I imagine that maybe struck meaningfully.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:14:37] Yeah, it was. It was very personal to me to. Particularly in. In parts of the world, like West Africa, for example, and in countries where the temple was going to be. It's the first temple in that country, which happened frequently during the period that I served to know that that part of really bringing all of the ordinances to a nation would be such a great blessing. It was great to be a part of that. Ironically, I had also experienced that in Argentina because the groundbreaking for the Argentine temple took place while I was on my mission. And the temple was only just outside of the ward where I was serving when it was under construction. So it was very close and we visited there often. So I had some precursor of what it was like to have a temple introduced into a nation even while serving as a missionary 20 years before I started.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] I was hoping you were going to be able to maybe build an Argentina temple.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:15:43] Well, ultimately that that happened. We went back to Buenos Aires 25 years later and renovated that very temple that I had watched get built as a. As a missionary.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] You were part of that renovation?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:15:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] You got to go down. Oh, amazing.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:15:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Okay. So what. What can you tell us about what it's like to, number one, work for church headquarters and number two, to work on temples when you love them and want to share them with everyone? You know, what can you tell us about just that experience? This is a rare treat for Mormon Stories listeners to get an inside view of working for the church and of building temples

Laurie Lee Hall [00:16:28] again. I looked at it all as being very positive. There, of course, were challenges and difficulties as there are in any organization. There was at times a great deal of stress and expediency to the work served for a season under President Hinckley, who was a doer, and during a time when, and certainly then, under President Monson, there had been a lot of temples announced in lots of parts of the world. We found ourselves entering parts of the world where we had not done significant construction before and trying to uncover the right ways to do things and to be able to communicate with people around the world and then to take what we learn and come back and communicate that effectively to the brethren so that the best decisions could be made about how to do things. Highly complex and challenging to be a part of all of that. I observed frequently that the leaders of the church that I interfaced with appreciated clarity and full disclosure and the facts effectively expressed so that they could make good decisions. I came to appreciate the fact that I had an important role to provide the very best information as directly and clearly as possible, which at times required that I speak things that might not have been popular to hear but appropriate to be shared. And I think for the season that I was there, I enjoyed a fairly high level of integrity, that what I was saying was accurate and could follow through at and produce on the things that I was asked to do for them. And that also required to show a lot of deference and respect at times when, even though I had shared my opinion, to then allow those that were decision makers to make their decisions and to work diligently to support them and to rally our project teams to support decisions that were made. I think all of that I consider to be important parts of working there.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Can you talk, can you give us a sampling of the complexity of building a temple? In other words, I imagine site selection, the artistic, the aesthetic of the design, the construction, the local government, the politics. Can you talk us through some of the main categories of complexity?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:19:29] All of those that you just mentioned are realities compounded with as well the ability to actually carry off our expectations in various different construction environments around the world, whose either level of construction experience or methodologies significantly differed from our own or what our expectations were. It was. There were great challenges in just being able to, in some places, construct a concrete block wall that was straight, level, plumb and true out of block that would actually last. You know, just amazing the kinds of complexities involved, developing and Again, I can take no personal credit for any particular temple or any particular design because they were all very much team efforts of large and complex teams of professionals and talented individuals. And all of that, in my impression, my experience, taking place under the guidance, the influence of the spirit. So there's no personal authorship, if you will, for any of what was accomplished, but more of a sense of being an important instrument in helping all of that to come to pass.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Would you have actually been involved in the literal drawing the lines, the autocad, the actual drawing up, the architectural plans for temples like yourself, or would that have been outsourced?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:21:13] Not so much. We work diligently to outsource a lot of that work because that became very scalable, and we could rely upon the talents and abilities of a lot of other companies to provide that work. But sketching and conceiving and concept development, something I really enjoyed doing and leading teams, all of that was very enjoyable to me.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] So if I'm understanding right, you might have been involved in the phases of, like, what might it look like at the very beginning? Let's sketch out a vision for what the aesthetic might be, the shape, the structure, and then sort of passing that on to the all of the talented

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:06] individuals who made those reality.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] Okay?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:09] Certainly.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] Okay. Do you have stories you're comfortable sharing about particular accomplishments or challenges with any particular temples that you're, like, really proud of or that was a real accomplishment or an achievement? I can think of, like, maybe areas where maybe the local citizenry weren't excited about a temple, or maybe country where it's particularly hard to build something. Like, any stories from specific temples you were a part of? Not necessarily that you did something great, but just where something extraordinary or even miraculous was able to, you know, you were able to witness and felt particularly inspired by or grateful for or whatever.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:23:03] There are myriads of experiences that most of which aren't going to get shared at this time. But one that popped into my mind was speaking about the complexities of building internationally when the church was constructing the temple in Nigeria. Nigeria was the number one most corrupt country on the planet in terms of definable, measurable government corruption. But it slipped to number two after the temple was completed and dedicated. And when the church began constructing the temple in Ukraine, Ukraine had taken over the number one spot. And so it seemed quite intriguing to me that while we were there building those two temples, the country was number one most corrupt in terms of business practices and governmental practices anywhere in the world. And yet, through very careful management and assistance of many Others, those were able to be completed successfully. Just to highlight, perhaps, that there are great challenges that can be overcome.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] And I imagine that the church, from what I know about church leadership, they're going to strive for integrity and honesty in all that they do. So I imagine navigating maintaining integrity and honesty in a government where that might not always be.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:24:46] Where the expectation is incorrupt practice at every level. Yeah, it didn't occur to me personally, but I was aware a friend of mine had worked on a temple in the South Pacific, and there was a challenge with the travel documents, if you will, for the angel statue. And there were ways that the angel that was to go on top of the temple could have been brought into the country. But the thought that our project manager had at the time was that Angel Moroni is going to enter through the front door. And ultimately that was resolved so that indeed, yes, the Angel Moroni came through the front door, and the church had operated completely above board. That was always on our mind to be responsible for representing that. I hope that always occurred.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Yeah, there are. And this is. This is more of a chance, maybe for you to dispel negative stereotypes or to just not answer than it is digging for anything unsavory there. You know, there are people who naturally are frustrated at the church or sad at the church or angry at the

Laurie Lee Hall [00:26:09] church

John Dehlin [00:26:11] or have had bad experiences with the church. And for them, they want to see bad in lots of places, or they do see bad in lots of places or they hear things. And I know that when I worked at LDS Church headquarters, there was always this idea of the widow's mite that you want to be very careful with tithing funds and always responsible in everything you do and. And never wasteful. And so I think there's a lot of people that want to say, like, oh, well, you know, friends and family, general authorities would buy plots of land, and then magically the temple would appear and development would happen. And a lot of people wanting to say that maybe there's graft or corruption or patronage that's all built into the temple building process. Is there anything positive you can say that would kind of. Because I know you feel good about your service there. Are there things you could say that might address or dispel some of those concerns that you may not feel are very fair or accurate?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:27:20] First of all, John, I feel very tender about and sad that many people have felt pain with regard to those subjects. And I think all that I can appropriately say is that for those things that I had stewardship for every effort was made to be fair and to be open and to be defensible.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Beautiful. All right, one other question about your time working on the temples. Were there projects that meant a lot to you, that were particularly you were interested in or you cared about or, you know, ones that just meant a whole lot to you for whatever reason? Can you talk about a few of those?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:22] Sure, sure. That's a good way to phrase it, because it helps me to tie to a few examples of positive examples that I. That I really do feel very close to my heart. My training at Rensselaer was very largely around adaptive reuse of historic structures, architectural preservation, working within the built context of older urban environments. And so opportunities to work with historic buildings of significance and to. And to develop both historic preservation and adaptive reuse of those structures really meant a great deal to me professionally. And so notable projects in that genre which I happen to have been able to deeply involve myself in were the renovation and structural improvements to the Salt Lake Tabernacle on Temple Square project that I was able to work with a very talented team to bring to pass the update of that building in a way that it remained to have all of the character of its former self, but also adapted to provide all the modern facilities that it's needed to have these past 10 years for current technology and so forth, within a very sensitive touch on the historic building. Another project, I mean, the joints of

John Dehlin [00:29:59] the wood were wrapped with animal hair, right? I mean, that's what I heard.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:30:06] There are lots of legend about all of that. It's a remarkable and amazing structure that for its time particularly, that ultimately needed attention. And I think one of the things that we've thought of and felt strongly about in the past is that as stewards of older buildings, it's incumbent upon the owner to continue to maintain as well as adapt and improve those buildings in a sensitive way. And I think all of those principles came to play on the Salt Lake Tabernacle. Similar but different was the Provo City Center Temple. The loss of the Provo Tabernacle in the fire in 2010 and ultimately being announced as a new temple brought a great deal of challenge associated with it. The temple is triple the square footage of the original tabernacle, and it's all hidden carefully beneath the ground so that the historic nature of the building is preserved and enhanced. So adaptive reuse to a new purpose. It was a remarkable project to have a part in, and very satisfying to be a part of that as well. One last project, and it's. It's Currently in the process of having its open house available, coming available to. To the public is the expansion of the Provo Missionary Training center, which was the last project that I had significant involvement in before retiring. A delightful experience to discover with leaders of the missionary department what the very best facility could be for the training of missionaries. And then to be able to carry that off successfully. I think extremely successfully. And now to see missionaries occupying that building, those buildings and to have the experiences we had hoped for them to have.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Now that wasn't that building a little bit controversial because it was planned to be higher than it designed? And then maybe some of the local citizens weren't excited about that.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:32:43] Original plans for that facility were for an 11 story building which would have been entirely inappropriate for that relatively residential location.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] We can't blame that on you though.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:32:57] No, that was others that I won't mention that attempted that project. Ultimately, when we gained opportunity to work on that project at the direction of church leadership, we were able to work closely with the local neighborhood and the city leaders to put appropriate zoning in place that allowed for the construction ultimately of the three six story buildings that have been constructed about half the height of what was originally intended, but much more contextual to the locality in which it was placed. And I think very positive outcome because we were able to listen to the concerns and needs of the people whose homes were there.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] Love it. That sounds like a success story a little bit.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:33:51] I certainly believe that. Yes, that was a successful experience.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] So some of the questions that came in were around maybe lessons the church had learned by not doing things as well as they could have. One example that I can think about is I remember when the Dallas Temple was built. It was kind of super small, if I remember correctly. And within a very short amount of time they ended up having to expand it because like even the locker rooms weren't big enough. And that's just my memory. I'm from Texas, so I remember.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:23] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] And then I also had people write about maybe in some of the instances I think someone wrote about the Logan Temple in particular, maybe some of the original historic interior or exterior design or architecture maybe wasn't as respected as well as it could have been. And maybe things were modernized or stripped in a way to where Insensitively. Insensitively. Is that something you can talk about either in terms of what was learned or, you know, that process?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:55] I think it suffices to say that both examples that you raised are very well understood and have provided the lessons learned, I think, that were needed. I think that's that's plenty to say of that subject. Those were good examples.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] So. So as I look through some of the questions or comments that people are making, I'll just read a couple so somebody writes that you're very graceful. Joshua writes, laurie is such a gracious person. There's just no pretense in her countenance. So inspiring. Craig asks a great question to the extent that you're comfortable answering it. Craig asks, I'm curious if Laurie witnessed any miracles in her role as a church employee that she would be comfortable sharing with us. Now, miracles in Mormonism are often sacred and not to be shared. But what would you say to Craig?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:36:01] Yes, I did several and that's all I can say.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] And to this day you see them as miracles?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:36:13] Yes. As and what are miracles? Miracles are the totally unexplainable, unexpected occurring to where those of faith record recognize a divine influence beyond anything that could have naturally occurred given the circumstances that were present and well understood. From our perspective, divine influence was something I recognized a lot and still consider sacred.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] And even. Even being excommunicated and maybe feeling in some ways rejected by the church, not sensing in you a need or desire to recontextualize or reframe or deny those miracles?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:37:09] No, I have no interest in reframing or refining my experience whatsoever. We can get into more about what it's like in my walk after the events of last month, but none of that has caused me to feel compelled to change. What I felt at the time to be accurate and true still remains to me today. Accurate and true and untarnished in any way by the actions or choices that some have made

John Dehlin [00:37:54] firm in the faith

Laurie Lee Hall [00:37:55] walking in my truth, yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Leilani writes, this is quite possibly the most amazing story I've ever heard thus far. Mormon stories, from the bravery and freedom Laurie has to be truly herself, to her undying devotion to God and even the LDS faith, is simply unique and amazing. Thank you for sharing your story, Laurie, and opening the hearts and minds of others. Barb writes, thank you for your story. Wishing you goodness and kindness on your journey. Casey writes, what a humble human being. Thank you listeners for sharing your questions and comments. They're very positive, they're very affirming, and we love it. Okay, Melissa and Carol Ann have a very similar question. Melissa writes, what is Lori Lee's favorite temple or temples? I'll add. And then Carol Ann writes, does she have a favorite temple design wise? So are you at all comfortable taking out your sort of architectural critique or aesthetic or preferences and sharing with us some of your favorite designs.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:39:10] Yeah, to some degree. It's a question that I've been asked many times through the years and in many ways while I was immersed in that work. The answer was always the most recent one, because I truly felt we were striving to do better at each temple opportunity. And so it was often without being coy, it was often the most recent one was the very best because we were trying continually to get better. I have to say that from where I stand today, looking backwards, the ultimate result in Provo City Centre was truly my favorite and most satisfying because of all the complexities that I've mentioned, but also how we were able to identify the right thing to do inside that building to carry off the program of the temple, being very true to the construction of the original tabernacle as much as possible, as though that were built as a temple initially back in the 1880s and 90s. Stylistically, there's integrity to that building that carries from every outside detail to every interior detail. So I think that's my best answer to that.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] Love it. So this is a question that just occurs to me, and honestly, it's born out of my relationship with my brother Joel, who served as Chief Information officer, managing director for the church for many years. I was going through my faith crisis while Joel was interacting with First Presidency members in Quorum of the twelve and Presiding Bishopric. And of course, I always wanted to hear that they were mean and nasty. I mean, I didn't want it, but my anger and sadness and frustration and the way that sometimes we talk about top church leaders as being mean or insensitive or old or out of touch or harsh tends to kind of like color how you project that onto them. And all of a sudden these are mean, evil, nasty, insensitive, out of touch, sometimes cruel people. But that was not Joel's experience with these. With these men. So, of course, I'm sure you had varying experiences with different church leaders, and some may have been more positive than others. But what can you say about what it was like for you, interacting? I think I heard enough from you to know that you did interact with first presidency quorum of the 12 presiding bishopric individuals frequently over many years. What can you talk about that I

Relationships with General Authorities and Church Leadership

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:23] think as an umbrella statement? My experience was, as Joel's was very totally positive. Overall, I grew to understand and appreciate while serving as stake president how difficult it is to be human and also a called leader at a prominent level, which caused me to develop an enormous amount of empathy where I was responsible for 4,000 people that the magnitude of the responsibilities of the presiding brethren were orders of factorial magnitude more than mine. And yet they were also human. And I recognized how much I needed the patience and compassion of our congregations and how much more so they needed the support and compassion and sometimes patience on the part of members as they do their very best within their best abilities and magnified, combined with the humanity that they still possess. So I guess I approach the whole relationship experience as one of the where I had empathy for them, as they served, and within my assignment, sought to lighten their burden.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] I'm guessing there are no, like, favorite

Laurie Lee Hall [00:44:34] or

John Dehlin [00:44:36] stories you can share about particularly pleasant or special or rewarding or uplifting interactions with any of them. Or maybe you don't want to name names or even get personal.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:44:50] Yeah, I will share one because President Hinckley has passed. When we were working on the Salt Lake Tabernacle, and this demonstrates the very detailed nature that President Hinckley, he asked me on one occasion because he was very concerned that the ceiling inside the tabernacle stay up where it belonged during a seismic event. And he wanted to know how we were attaching the new ceiling to the structure above. And so when I returned the following month, I brought a handful of the screws that we were actually using on site to make that attachment. And in making my presentation, I set those screws on the desk in front of him, and he picked them up and looked at them and said, well, these are the same screws I use in my house. You know, we know stories of President Hinckley in his younger years having done a lot of the work on his own home. And he was intrigued by that, that it wasn't anything special. It was the magnitude, the sheer quantity of those screws that we were using that was going to do the job. I think perhaps somewhat symbolically, very common screw multiplied over hundreds of thousands of connections can do great work. That's kind of what we both got out of that.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] That's very nice. Any other reflections about working with the leadership or stories?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:34] None that come to heart at the moment. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] Is it fair to say it was overall positive?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] And are there adjectives you could use to describe the quality or the caliber? These individuals, educated, thoughtful, sensitive, serious, like

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:58] each of the brethren, bring their particular aptitudes and abilities to their callings, just as any of us would have. But it's fascinating to watch those abilities be magnified, the divine influence on helping them to see things beyond what they would be able to see on their own. I often would speak to them with regard to very technical issues and a great capacity for understanding, you know, those issues, which were well beyond the training that they had. And also the trust that was placed in individuals who had the training. To be able to share that detail, I think was very much appreciated.

Reflecting on Church Service Before the Turning Point

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Any final things you want to share about your time in church service or working on temples or in architecture before we start talking about, you know, the changes that happened?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] So it's kind of summarizing your work, church headquarters.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:21] I think it's evident from the things that we've talked about that I really loved. And counted as a great honor to be able to work where I did, had to serve where I did. And I think as a segue, both of those things were placed on the table and. Yielded up in order to be who I am now.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] And as I think of that, I, I mean, the word sacrifice comes to mind because we, I can tell how much that meant to you. But also, I want to say words that come to mind are like, I don't want to say desperation, but urgency or necessity. Because why would you, why would you want to give that up? I'm assuming you, I'm assuming you retired earlier than you had to and there was more projects you loved and more things you could have done.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Is that kind of.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:49] Absolutely. The, the. I guess the fact of the matter is that a much more, perhaps 10 times or a hundred times more difficult experience with gender dysphoria began several years

John Dehlin [00:50:12] ago,

Laurie Lee Hall [00:50:15] many times stronger than what I had experienced back in the mid-90s. And to make the journey short, we'll go back perhaps to hit some of the detail, but to bring to the conclusion, to help answer the question, I reached the junction where it was live authentically or perish. And that's not hyperbole. It was live authentically or perish. And I've learned that we each carry with us a number of different identities. And some of those identities vary or develop over time. We have a cultural identity, a social identity, a religious or spiritual identity. We have a professional identity. If people would have asked me years ago, who am I? My response might naturally have been, I am an architect. Because I identified as that professional identity as though it was everything worth knowing about who I was. But we all have those, any number of different identities. I'm a parent or a grandparent, you know, I'm a stay at home mom, I'm professional coach or whatever it may be. We have our identities. And as we talked in the earlier segment about gender, gender is also an identity, and it's one that's deeply core, a part of who each individual is. Most folks who don't experience gender dysphoria, which is the majority of the population, of course, never really have to focus on their gender identity because it's consistent and congruent with who they are. And you know, it's like I have an elbow, you know, I'm male, you know, it's just, whatever it is, it's, it's just a part of who they are. For those of us who experience the incongruence and the dissonance and the dysphoria, as has been explained, that never goes away, no matter how hard it tries to be submerged, set aside, killed. In my case, it found its way again to the surface at a point where I wanted to see change occur in my life and improvement. And it became absolutely necessary to begin to pay attention to it for my health, for my well being, for eventually getting to understand and know what my truth really was, who my core person really was, and ultimately to stand in that truth, to step into that truth and then stand in that truth. Ideally, would it have been, could it have been possible to not have lost opportunity for employment where I loved working or membership in the church that I had served and still be authentic? I think ideally, yes, those things could be, should be congruent and possible to coexist. That has not been my lived experience. And what I have had to make the difficult choice in order to be true to my core identity as Lori hall, as female, as a woman, I had to set other identities on the altar, if you will, and allow those who had influence over those identities to do with them as they needed to, and then to busy myself, which is really where I am today in reinventing my identities professionally, spiritually, as a person of faith, as a professional woman, socially, and so forth. All of these things that I've needed to over the past year or so, really reinvent, re, establish, define as a part of the person that I am and that I need to live as authentically and desire to be recognized as authentically.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] So you, you sacrifice some important identities to be able to make, to be able to be true to who you are and to stand in your truth.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:55:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] But hopefully you can reshape and forge new identities to kind of take the place, is that right?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:56:07] That's right. And that's really the, the work that I'm deeply involved in now is becoming established as who I am and, and what I have to contribute to, to community, to profession to whatever it may be. I guess I'm accustomed to contributing and contributing at a high level, and I'd like to continue to still be able to do that, if there was anything that I could offer, is that I have had extraordinary experiences, but yet I'm a very normal woman who has had not a completely unique, but a somewhat unique journey. But to be able to be accepted as competent and capable and likable and professional and as the woman that I am is very, very important to me.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Thank you so much, Loyle, for sharing that. That's a beautiful way to kind of close part two of this interview, capping off your work at the church as an architect and how you had to kind of sacrifice it. So beautiful. Two parts so far. I would love to do a part three, if that's okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] Just to let our listeners know, we're going to transition now to Part three. Move to Part three. And part three is going to be about we'll talk briefly about her time serving as Stake President and if there's anything she wants to share about what it's like to be a Stake President. And then we'll move to how she decided to how Laurie Lee decided to take that courageous step to begin presenting as female and what that was like for her, for her family, for the leadership, for the membership in her community, etc. How that led to the disciplinary her being released as Stake President and the disciplinary council and then kind of where she is now. So that's going to be part three. How does that sound?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:58:56] Excellent. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 772

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. We're back for Part three so I will welcome everyone who's joined us today on July 18, 2017. We still have well over 200 participants on our livestream with our interview of Lori Lee Hall. We've talked about her conversion to the

Laurie Lee Hall [00:01:03] Church

John Dehlin [00:01:05] in Massachusetts and in New York, her early experiences knowing that she was a woman but experiencing gender dysphoria throughout her childhood and adult years, her conversion to the church at RPI in New York and her mission service in Argentina and her ultimately getting married in the LDS Temple and the Washington D.C. temple to her best friend and having four children and experiencing an early career as an architect, but then experiencing severe depression to the point of contemplating suicide. How that led to a change where she moved to Utah, began working as an architect for the LDS church, and for 20 years worked in the LDS Church as an architect on various buildings, but specifically was involved in the construction design construction management of 40 temples during her time at the church, working at the highest levels of the church. So we've talked now, Laurie Lee, about the fact that you had been called as a bishop once you moved to Tooele and then immediately after that you were called to serve as a stake president. So was your suppression of your thoughts around your gender identity in full mode when you were called the stake president?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:02:49] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Okay, so you're true believing orthodox, former bishop, now stake president and ready to

Laurie Lee Hall [00:02:56] take on the next challenge.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] And you said there are 4,000 members of your stake. What was the name of the stake?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:03:03] Tooele, Utah Valley View Stake. Like our ward was brand new ward at the time that I was called. The stake was also a brand new stake at the time that I was called. So it was starting the unit from scratch and that required a lot of initial hard work on the part of a lot of people to start an organization from scratch and get it up and running successfully.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Yeah. You didn't just have a stake to inherit, you had to build one.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:03:34] No, it was.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] But you're a builder.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:03:35] I am a builder and a planner and those things came natural to me. So I found myself often in situations where I was starting something from scratch, creating something from thin air, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] I'm not sure how many stake presidents we've interviewed on Mormon stories. I would imagine that Tom Phillips, I know Tom Phillips served as stake president, and I'm not sure if Hans Mattson has served in his stake president or stake presidency. But this is a rare opportunity and we're not going to have time to really dig into it. And it's not, let's just say, core to the themes of today's story, but it's interesting. And so, Laurie Lee, would you mind just telling our listeners whatever you'd like to share about what it's like to be a Mormon stake president in Tooele? What are the good things? What are the hard things? What are the challenging things?

Serving as Stake President While Navigating Gender Identity

Laurie Lee Hall [00:04:32] When I was set apart by Elder Tingey, right or wrong, he reminded me that for me, living in a small community outside of the Salt Lake Valley and away from church headquarters, so to speak, even though we're not that far away, but for many of our members, it was removed from the center of the church by a degree. He reminded me, as I was called and set apart, that I represented the church to our members. And I might be the one of the very most prominent, if you will, if I can use that term, leaders that they would ever get to know. So a significant amount of responsibility. To be that representative.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] Going back to this, just for a second in your sort of internal, you know, you mentioned it from the very beginning that you always identified as a woman internally. So did you experience any internal cognitive dissonance receiving this call? We may have just answered this, but I just want to make sure you said you were in full sort of service mode, but were there times in this early call where you actually said, oh my gosh, if they really knew who I was, would I have gotten this call or something opposite, like, oh my gosh, maybe this is further validation. The Heavenly Father loves and accepts me, who I am. Was there any internal dialogue around your gender identity and dysphoria?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:24] Not so much. But my internal dialogue came from the fact that I sensed that the call was coming and well in advance of when it came.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Through inspiration, you mean?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:35] Yes, and so much so that I felt very strongly how the stake would be divided, even though it was contrary to what I thought my what I thought I would do if I was the one making the division. It helped me to understand who I had the opportunity to be working with and who I wanted to serve and those callings that were going to need to be made in a few weeks. And so when Elder Tingey asked if we could get the stake leadership, basically all the members of the Stake Council and High Council and so forth, in place that weekend, I had from basically 2 o' clock Saturday afternoon to about 4 o' clock Saturday evening to be able to identify who my counselors would be and who all the members of the Stake High Council and the stake leaders would be. But I knew their names already in advance. And so we were able to sustain all of those people, get them called Saturday night and sustain them Sunday morning because I felt I had very mercifully been given enough information to know how to do that in advance of the call through inspiration. Inspiration.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] So your connection with the Divine has

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:57] been very direct and has been something I've cherished and well developed through the years. Do you mean through hard work, commitment, through attention? President Monson has been known to say when he has a prompting, he acts on it. And even before he taught that principle, I had made that a part of my life as well. That when I felt inspiration prompting of the Spirit, I would act on it. And in acting on it, I believe that it helps us to become more in tune to receive more such promptings. And it's not a gift that's exclusive to myself or to any one person. It's really, I think, the intent for all of us to be able to enjoy that light and, and to receive it and utilize it for good. But it was, it was profound at the time that I received that call. And so back to your question. I didn't question the call because I knew its source and had had those experiences. I had every desire to step up to the responsibility and fulfill it. And in those early, in the early years of serving as Stake President, I didn't, I didn't question myself or my worth at all in those terms that you suggest. And gender was still neatly packaged away at that time.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] So what can you tell us about what it's like to be a Stake President in terms of, like, hardest things, best things?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:09:55] I really think one of the most beautiful things is how many devoted and capable people the Stake President has at their fingertips, if you will, at their reach to be able to surround themselves with and to carry off the work. The resources of a full LDS stake are significant. I learned more so the value of significant value of delegation and of giving all of those who receive assignments the responsibility and the accountability for what they were asked to do and to rely on people to do their best and let go of things and never want to be the micromanager. Those were all lovely leadership qualities that I felt strongly about and learned and applied in that role. There's too much work for any one person to do, and there's so much growth that comes as others take on their roles and fulfill them. And I, in many ways, found myself being a cheerleader of, you know, of those who were serving in the stake and of those bishops that I was working with under me that I knew what they were up against. I'd served in many of their roles, and my goal was to help them to be as successful and as happy in their services they could be, because the cumulative effect was the desired outcome.

Disciplinary Councils and the Weight of Leadership

John Dehlin [00:11:46] Did you. Were you involved in a lot of disciplinary councils? And if so, what was that like?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:11:53] Actually, no. I was involved with counseling a lot of individuals, but only on rare occasion did those wind up at the disciplinary council level, at the stake level. My sense was to provide every possible opportunity to help an individual to progress and make the changes that were appropriate at as low a level, as basic a level, as individual level as possible was my personal approach.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] And so when you did have to be involved in disciplinary council, can you talk about what that was like for you or for the people involved?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:43] I guess it was the council of last resort in many ways. There was one instance where an individual was very adamant about continuing to live as they were living, and it became necessary to hold a council. And what was positive to me, what really, I think was confirmation to me that we had done that difficult task as correctly as possible. At the end of the proceedings, he had been sitting next to me during the course of. Of the council. At the end of the proceedings, as we stood, he put me in his arms and gave me a strong and long embrace and shared his love for me, and I for him. And then he departed. To me, that felt like the appropriate things had been done.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Referring, I guess, if you'll allow me back to kind of the people who maybe have more anger or frustration with the church, or for those who have been a part of a disciplinary council that maybe didn't end quite so favorably, there's a lot of mocking or cynicism or anger, frustration. These are sort of jokingly referred to as courts of love, and that's fine if that's what is in fact experienced. But I don't think for everyone, that's what's experienced. I think depending on the leader, disciplinary council can be very cold or harsh or severe or even unchristlike. So what would you say to people who, who hold disdain for the idea that this is a court of love.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:14:52] I recognize that that pain and those lived experiences are very real and not at all uncommon. And that's terribly unfortunate that that's the case. It's tragic that that's the case. It's. It's hard to express that that kind of a negative experience that many have, that many have. Have had to walk through can ultimately still deal with healing and recovery, if you will. I think part of what I hope to be able to serve as an example of someone who has gone through that process and although wounded, continues to, to go forward in a positive and. Hopefully a growing and strengthening way that it is possible to pass through such an experience and not lose your faith. I would hope in as many cases as possible it would be possible to go through such an experience and not lose one's family or loved ones. And yet I know that occurs, that I just hold out hope that there can be from even very negative experiences, ultimately positive growth and positive experiences long term.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] Would you have tips for a Stake President to be able to make it more like a genuine court of love versus something that's damaging to faith or to commitment to the church? Are there best practices or things that you tried to do?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:17:23] It really comes down to, at least from my experience, it comes down to having love and compassion and true empathy for the individual, Even when seriously wrong or hurtful choices have been made. I sensed the Lord's love for the people that I worked with, and that helped to shoo my personal feelings and biases away as I sought to represent Him.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Beautiful. So any final experiences or thoughts you want to share about your time as a Stake President in terms of what it was like for you or what it's like to be a Stake President before we move to how things started bubbling up for you in a way to where your life changed so dramatically.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:18:40] It was a highly rewarding experience. There were so many positive experiences. Bishops in the church do the hard work and truly the Stake President exists to help them to be able to carry the weight of what they experienced as a bishop. So there was just so many great opportunities to work with people and to serve and to lift up those who carried heavier burdens than I did.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] So you look back on that time,

Laurie Lee Hall [00:19:25] how very positively, even though it became, as we'll talk about in a moment, even though it became excruciating, it was a very positive experience.

Coming to Terms with Gender Identity as Stake President

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Okay, so now, now's where the story maybe gets a little bit more intense. How does a Stake President who's been suppressing, at least, you know, who's known all along that they were female, a woman who's been suppressing any external, you know, indication of that internal identity and who's been fully committed and devoted to Mormon orthodoxy and who's even avoided communication with their loving Heavenly father around that dysphoria. How does that start, you know, what point in your time as Stake President does that come to a head? And what causes that sort of ultimate reconciliation or beginnings for reconciliation? How did that begin?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:20:48] Yes, It. Even though I was able to suppress those feelings a lot, it wasn't constantly successful. The feelings were suppressed, but ever present, if that can occur at the same time. And I think it's important to recognize that it would be a false notion to think that a Stake president isn't human or somehow is protected from the frailties of mortality. And yes, the expectation is that obedience and correct choices will be the nature of the person. Anyone in the church or out of the church is subject to whatever baggage or experiences or temptations or difficulties or challenges, physical or health challenges or whatever they may be that any other person is able to experience or likely to experience experience. So for me, I think the triggering event, and again, this occurred in such a way that I didn't realize what was coming occurred for me when I spent 11 days hospitalized with some internal problems.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] What year?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:29] 2010.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] So this six years on, six years

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:35] into my services state. Okay, yeah. So in fall of 2010, the doctors had no idea how to treat me and didn't really know what was wrong and tried some things that were time consuming. And it left me not unlike what I was bedridden and had a Book of Mormon in my hand. As an 18 year old, I was again bedridden and in a position where I could do a lot of soul searching and decision making, planning about my life. And there were aspects, even though things were going very well in a number of areas, there are aspects of my life that I knew that I wanted to change and improve. And so I really, I think I left that hospital stay with a very strong desire to improve myself and find, looking back now, I would frame it as finding truth, truths that I could live with greater integrity to not realizing, not cognitively realizing that that was going to lead me to pulling my identity, my gender identity out of the box and taking a good hard look at it. Ultimately though, so it sounds almost like

John Dehlin [00:24:00] that hospital stay slowed you down.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:24:02] It gave me pause and maybe that's the right way of looking at, gave me that point of rest where I wasn't working and serving a million miles an hour. And that pause was a great opportunity for reflection and introspection that put me in a mindset, opened my mind and heart, if you will, for change to occur again. At that point, not expecting or knowing what changes could occur or needed to occur. But I began understanding or seeking to understand and explore a little bit more about myself and began journaling fairly intensely, writing a lot, and found that by doing so, I was uncovering thoughts, feelings, experiences, even going back into my early youth that after a number of months in that process, helped me to see that individual that I had been suppressing and realizing that wasn't someone else, that wasn't a third person. It wasn't an alter ego or, you know, a separate personality. It was me. But what did that mean? Even in the context of 2011 and doing the things that I was doing and having the family I had and so forth, what did. What was that going to mean? I didn't know. And so I began what I couldn't do as a younger person, searching for answers in all the available resources, including anything positive I could find on the Internet about these kinds of feelings, and discovered a lot of early understanding, early information that I received about what it means to be transgender and tempted to take it all apart and say, well, that's not me, or I don't do that, or I wouldn't feel that way, or, you know, and just tried to make sense of it all and say, okay, why did this happen to me? Why do I feel this way? I tried to take it apart from every possible direction in an effort to say, no, this really can't be. And so I resisted a lot. By the fall of that year,

John Dehlin [00:26:43] the

Laurie Lee Hall [00:26:43] dysphoria was raging and I again became very suicidal as state president. Uh huh. It gotten to the point where it was obvious to people around me, those that I served with my family, that something was terribly wrong. I was struggling ultimately, again, in a bit of a pause, I was traveling out of the country and I got to that point of desperation where I took a step I never, as we've talked about, I had never been willing to take before. I approached my father in heaven as Laurie and prayed to him as who I now know to be my authentic self and had.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Do you remember what you would have said? And it may be. And if it's too sacred to share, that's fine.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:27:50] Yeah, not well enough to be able to.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] Like I'm imagining every father, this is Laurie or.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:27:55] Yeah, something of that nature. But Very much putting myself there in front of him as Laurie, and not necessarily saying anything like, is this right, is this okay? Or anything like that, but just having personal prayer as this person for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] What was that like? Was it different or same?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:26] It was remarkably different. I had had obviously a lot of personal prayer over the 30 years prior to that time and had great experiences in personal prayer. But there was a sense of peace and love that I hadn't experienced before, which helped me to cross that bridge of self acceptance. Up until that time, I was living a lifetime of self denial. And it was in that experience that began a process of self acceptance, of identifying my truth and starting to step into it.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] So you felt Heavenly Father's acceptance of your female looking backward?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:29:25] Probably more of what took you so long from Heavenly Father, but maybe that's me reading into it. But certainly a strong feeling of acceptance and buoyancy that came as a result of that. I remember that was an evening I was by myself in a hotel.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Do you remember what country you were in?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:29:51] I was in Lisbon, Portugal, on a temple related assignment. Let's not make too much of that. But yes, that's where I was. I do remember coming down to breakfast the next morning and meeting my colleagues for breakfast and being totally buoyant and happy and outgoing in ways that they must have looked at me and wondered what I'd been doing the night before. How, you know, how drunk had I gotten? You know, it was just suddenly I was alive in a new way. And I realized, oh, this is happening. I need to be careful about this. But it's like a personality found voice that hadn't had voice for a very long time.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] So the suicidality lifted and the depression lifted. I mean, at least for a moment.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:30:47] For the moment, yes, it did. When it comes to gender dysphoria, there are, in my mind anyway, there are categories. One category is the physical dissonance that one feels with regard to their body. Not unlike many people who experience dissonance with their body, maybe through anorexia or other. Other types of experiences. But there's a. There's a certain amount of physical dissonance that we feel. Another very big and very valid part of gender dysphoria is social dysphoria is the way I term it, which is how one feels. With regard to the acceptance or rejection of one's gender expression. And I think we, many of us, who have lived as closeted, greatly fear the impact of what that social dysphoria is going to be like. How bad Is that going to be? And so each experience of coming out to someone can open another chapter of rejection. And all of the feelings associated with. Because of who I am, I'm not acceptable, I'm not good enough, I'm not appropriate, or whatever those feelings may be for an individual. And so although I had crossed that bridge myself of self acceptance, then I found myself immediately on the journey of what do I do now that I have my truth? How do I begin to express this to others? And what is the fallout going to be? What's the outcome? And am I strong enough to face that? And so when you ask the question, John, if the depression and the anxiety and the panic that I felt personally lifted, but very shortly re emerged because of the difficulty of that coming out process, one by one by one with

John Dehlin [00:33:23] every person, it's almost like, if I can use the term social dysphoria, there is a spiritual dysphoria that was lifted as you accepted yourself and. And was able to have an authentic relationship with Heavenly Father as Laurie, that lifts. But then it immediately gets replaced by the social dysphoria of having anxiety over coming out and what to do as Stake President with this information that you've received or with this truth that you've now accepted.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:33:57] Right. And meeting that out in such a way that I could fulfill my responsibilities both ecclesiastically as well as an employee and as a parent and grandparent and spouse. All of those things still existed that would be suffocating and needed to be properly addressed. And yet I had this truth that integrity suggested I needed to start to share. And so my first step was to write a letter trying to explain what I understood about this now to my spouse, knowing that I would not be able to get through the explanation emotionally, sufficiently verbally. And so the written letter was the vehicle for conveying my understanding to her, which we were able to do shortly after my return from Portugal. Yeah.

Early Steps Toward Outward Transition

John Dehlin [00:34:57] So really quickly, a couple just micro questions. Had you ever put on. And also, please educate me and others if this is a question either you don't like or you feel like is inappropriate. I'm wondering if you had ever tried on an article of clothing that would be associated with females or women if you had ever put on makeup, if there had been any point in your Life prior to 2010 in Portugal where you had experimented with or practiced in any way expressing outwardly your gender identity.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:35:40] Yes. And only privately, never publicly in any way. It was a constant part of my teenage years. In private, it was where I found relief and solace from the difficulty I found in living as a young man, and not in my impression, not doing a very good job socially at least of living as a young man. So yes, I did that as a sense of connection to myself and frequently and found great solace in that. But that was part of what also had as a youth had brought me so much shame that I was actually doing that. That played a great part in when my decision, my initial decision as an 18 year old to completely suppress those feelings also was to eliminate that activity. So that type of dressing and expressing as female did occur a few times following that time, up until the time that we're now talking about, but very rarely because I felt so much guilt and shame about the act that I just could not allow myself to do that, or if on rare occasion I did that the suffering was real and genuine and outweighed the momentary relief that I felt.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] So a rare occasion, as a believing orthodox adult Mormon, you might have gone back to that, experimented, experimented a bit and felt lot of shame and guilt over it, remarkably.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:37:42] Okay, yeah. But the experience I had crossing that bridge and self accepting changed that. And I think you sensed that, that I then knew that the shame and guilt was a manufactured construct of mine in an attempt to try to suppress that person who I now accepted. And so that person who is now me and who is always me began to find expression frequently and more openly and ultimately somewhat publicly. Baby steps at a time. But through a process of years of, of really beginning to live outwardly and exposed and authentically.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] And you lived. And so how many years you served? Another three years in the Stake Presidency after this realization?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:38:46] Two plus in Portugal. Okay, yeah, two plus.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] And that. And so that this is a question or a thought that occurred to me as I was getting ready this morning. I'm thinking, okay, so you identified, you knew you were female from 5 years old and that was fixed, that was permanent. Even as you were an orthodox believing Mormon, you still identified as female.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:39:16] Heavenly Father knew that, always has known that.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] So he always has known that and he calls you as bishop and stake president knowing that you identify as female. Now an orthodox Mormon is going to look at that, I don't know, one of three ways either Heavenly Father messed up in calling you, which is a disgusting thought to me. Second is that Heavenly Father knew it and loved that about you, or three, that that was kind of a sin you were engaging in. But heavenly, you know, all leaders are imperfect. And so that was a sin that Heavenly Father was willing to accept. And again, it's disgusting and repulsive for me to refer to that as a sin. But I'm trying to kind of, I'm trying to put on my orthodox mindset for a second, my theology of a loving Heavenly Father who makes inspired callings of his leaders especially. You wouldn't think as a Mormon that a Stake president calling would be more inspired than a primary teacher. But in reality, that's a serious calling where you're giving temple recommends and deciding if people are worthy and going on missions and if they can go to the temple and if they can get married in the temple. And like, there's a lot of legitimate ordinances that are taking place based on your authority such that you would think that Heavenly Father would not goof on that calling, or the Elder Tingy or whoever it was that called. You wouldn't have goofed on that calling. And so, you know, how could an orthodox Mormon get their brain? And then. But then you go five years into your calling as Stake President and you are now internally deciding not only am I female, which you had always known, but now you're saying it's time to come out about that and to be authentic with it and to figure out how to now act according to that truth that you had always known. And so another two and a half years go by where you're serving as Stake President. Like my orthodox believing mind would be like, okay, well, the general authorities should have had some inspiration. Like bells should have gone off. You should have been. They should have been knowing this and you should have been released and you should not have been allowed to serve for another two and a half years once you decided for sure, both internally and in whatever way you could live it externally, now that you were in fact Lori and female, it shouldn't have gone on for another two and a half years. So how did that happen? What could you say to an orthodox believing Mormon about how you got the call and how Heavenly Father allowed you to persist in the call after you were living out of conformity with what the church would say is proper gender roles and proper gender identity? That's a really long question. I do that occasionally.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:26] So is there a question in there?

John Dehlin [00:42:28] Do you get the spirit of what I'm.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:29] I do. I do. And it's. I think we've talked already about the nature of how the call was made and the feelings I had about the call in anticipation of it coming. I don't doubt in the least that the call was from Father in Heaven and that was inspired. Touching the three degrees that you offered two of which on the ends, were repulsive. My sense, my lived experience, is that, yes, Father has always known my identity. He gave it to me long before this life, and yet he extended those calls through his servant. He sustained and supported my actions while I served. And even after my self acceptance, I observed carefully whether that support and sustenance was continuing and whether the work was still being accomplished as it should be. And my sense was always that it was and that it must be okay for me to continue to serve while I was called to do so. Although it became increasingly difficult because of my internal conflict over figuring out how to, you know, walk this journey and come out, I was never conflicted about the appropriateness of serving as Stake President. Some would look at me, I suppose, and say I should have resigned on the spot, and maybe I should have. But I didn't feel that way. I felt that I had been called. I felt that I was being sustained by divine influence and that I would do my duty for as long as I had the responsibility. Was it a relief when the release came? Absolutely. An enormous relief to be able to then narrow my focus a little bit on the difficulty of the journey that I was already walking.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] But I think it's. I think it's important to sort of like emphasize and tell me if I'm wrong, that by 2010, you were five years into your Stake presidency, you would come out to Heavenly Father as female. You have accepted. You had accepted yourself as female. From then on, you were praying to Heavenly Father as Laurie. And so I'm assuming that you still feel like the inspiration to guide your state continued. It did, as Laurie. And so in essence, a female is serving as Stake President.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:45:26] Of course, that's the conclusion in the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] With Heavenly Father's approval and with full inspiration, did the inspiration trickle? Did it decline? Did it suppress? Did you feel less guided by Heavenly Father for those two and a half years you're serving as Stake President?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:45:46] No. It didn't diminish

John Dehlin [00:45:51] what, what happened, if

Laurie Lee Hall [00:45:53] anything, other than my own individual struggles, the guidance was there. And as is often the case with service in those lengthy callings, I truly feel like the service got better as the years went past.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Once you could serve as fully female,

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:22] and again, I wasn't outwardly female, I wasn't presenting female, but I was internally.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Internally as fully female.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:31] Right. The shackles of that suppression were gone. And there's a measure of clarity that comes to an individual who reaches that point of self acceptance and authenticity, even if it's just internally, which actually benefited me. But overlaid on it was all the challenges of having that situation taking place and beginning to come out to family and friends and so forth.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] Yeah. So how did you do that? What was the process of coming out?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:10] I shared the letter with Colleen, and that was extraordinarily difficult for her and for both of us.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] And can you just. Is there anything you were comfortable sharing about her reaction?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:23] It was heartbreaking and really destroyed, you know, her dream of an eternal family. The way she saw created a circumstance that really threatened her eternal feelings of security.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] I'm just trying to imagine, like, speaking with your stake president and. And information you're receiving from your stake president threatens your sense of security around your eternal family, like that extra role of you being her stake president.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:56] In addition, when we're sitting together on the bed sharing something that personal, that's husband and wife.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Yeah. So that was husband and wife.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] But to her, you're still her stake president.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:10] Yeah. But honestly, it was, you know, spouse transcends calling.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Right. Okay. So she was devastated.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:21] It was devastating, and has continued to be very, very hard. But over the coming months, as I was able then finally to openly share how difficult this was for me and to begin between just she and I, to express the struggle I was experiencing. And that struggle deepened, really, as we learned kind of how to maneuver through even the basic issues and questions, like what kind of clothing was I got to wear around the house? Eventually, her observation of how difficult this was to me brought out her compassion as well, to. To support individual small steps at a time, and we move through those steps fairly slowly. One of those important steps was later that year, explaining what we knew at the time with regard to it to our children and their spouses.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] What was that like?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:28] In many cases, it was positive. In one case, it wasn't as positive. Ultimately, it was, you know, certainly surprising and difficult for each of our kids to experience. But how did you describe it?

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Did you say, I'm transgender? What did you.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:49] Fascinatingly, my children were very much more intelligent on the subject than I had been. The younger generation is very, very capable and bright. But, yeah, we shared the basics of what we understood the situation to be, while at the same time being very reassuring that I was going to continue to fill the role of their dad and that I continued to have deep love for them and that we were committed to our marriage and they could count on their parents, even though they were all adults at the time and three of them had spouses at the time, it was important for them to know that their parents were walking this journey together, and that there would be changes, but the changes wouldn't affect the basics of their relationship with myself, with us.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] When I think about your wife for just a second, and I, you know, we don't want to tell her story for her, and we don't want to share anything that isn't comfortable. But, you know, I'm assuming that she's attracted to men, you know, and so

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:07] that's the thing, A huge thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] And then I'm also imagining, as a believer, that her initial reaction is that this is sin. This is some sort of defect on your part. This is wrong. That the process that you guys go through of talking it out. She's your best friend, and she's the first person you ever came out to.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:27] Yes. As such. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] Okay. Then there's this process where you said where she's gaining empathy for you, and I'm just wondering, was there ever a point where she stopped seeing it as well? Did she see it as sin or unworthiness? Was there ever a point where she stops seeing it as sin and unworthiness? And then is there a point where she or other family members kind of actually go, I get this, and this is a real legitimate thing, and this isn't something you can pray away or that you can be righteous enough to make it go away. Were you able to see that transition in her or in others, if you're comfortable sharing? Because that's incredible work.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:52:12] That's huge work. And one of the things I'm convinced I was naive about how convincing I could be of the reality of this. Going into it, I was often reminded that I had had the better part of five decades to process this, and most people I was with were just beginning to process the information, and that required me to have enormous patience and empathy for those who were going through that process. There's a real. Many real aspects of grieving loss associated with the changes that come into the life of a transitioning transgender person. The grieving is as real as losing someone to death or severe illness. Processing that grief is work. And the difficulty, too, is to still have the person right there and have aspects of that person's personality or physical appearance be changing, and yet they're still there. Having the person ever present but gone, you know, is extraordinarily difficult in terms of grief processing. It took long time, and it was cyclical. You know, there was progress and regression that took place among members of my family and others as they processed all of that. And I think that's something that those of us as transgender persons need to look at our family and friends and others with a great deal of compassion and patience and empathy for what they're passing through as they attempt to try to understand and if they're able to live with and support and affirm us, it's as remarkably difficult as almost anything that could occur in the life of a married couple. For example, same may be true of the way that parents feel when a gender variant child comes out to their parents and suddenly the vision of who this child is going to become is very different. And even more so within the confines of the church, where life is extremely gendered, all of those things layer into becoming a seven layer dip of very difficult circumstances. For me, I observed a significant step when, when my wife said to me last Christmas time that she had lost her husband, but she still had her best friend tying back to how our relationship began, that constant was still there and she was beginning to get to the point where she had grieved fully the loss of the husband that she deeply loved and was beginning to see the glass half full or more and start to focus on positive and blessings that still existed as opposed to focusing on the things that were lost. And to me, that was an important signal of progress.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] Beautiful hope to meet her someday. So I'm trying to now imagine you've got this layer of your wife and children all knowing and grappling with this new information, with the changing roles and the grieving in the morning and hopefully some happy emergence of new newness or new relationships or maybe some happiness for you. But at the same time, you're stake president. Right. So what's it like? What's it like emerging as your stake president? How did you deal with the info? Were you all, like, tight lipped about it so that no one would find out? Did you start coming out to fellow stake presidency members or high councilmen? Did you reach out to general authorities? Did you just keep a secret and just hope no one would find out? Like, how did you continue another two and a half years?

Coming Out to Family and Loved Ones

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:00] Well, by the time we're at the point that we're talking about, it was now just a matter of months.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Okay, so by the time you came out to your children, your number was up?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:10] Yeah, my number was essentially close to being up.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] So it took a couple years for you to get to that point where you could feel comfortable with your wife and come out to your children?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] So she kept that secret for a season.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:24] Yeah, most of it was internal work that she and I were doing together during that time frame, but when she was finally comfortable in sharing it with the children and also eventually with members of her family, so that she felt some support in the process because she was very alone in the circumstances. And so eventually coming out to other members of her family as well was an important step for her to have support. But, yes, it was in the closing days of my service that we'd reached the point that we've now described. And I was true, truly, to the point where I was living day to day and doing what I could.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] So. And stop me if this question is just too specific, but you talked about how sometimes you would dress as female in your childhood. I imagine as you're coming out to your wife in that year or two of sort of figuring out what this means, maybe you would have started to do that again to express yourself externally. And again, I'm thinking, you know, well, one, I'm wondering, is that what happened? And then two, how that works when you're stake president, how that works in terms of how you feel, how you reconcile it. Can you talk about that or is that too personal?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:58:56] There were incremental steps that began to be taken and. And honestly, others would look at it and say, how could you possibly have lived in both places at the same time? It wasn't a long time, but it was. It existed.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] What are your thoughts on that time?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:59:16] I don't look back. I didn't at the time, and I don't look back regretting or feeling shame. Finally, the issues of shame and guilt were gone and I didn't feel that any longer.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] So it felt consistent with your relationship with Heavenly Father and even with your church service to be able to begin outwardly expressing your gender, your female identity cautiously.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:59:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] At home.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:59:49] At home, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:51] Yeah. And it's even weird as we talk about it, it's almost like my Mormon brain is like, framing this as sin. Like, oh, it's like a gay man who starts kissing or being sexual with another gay man. It's like, oh, you're dressing as a female. There's shame. Like, as I'm talking about it and feeling it, I'm like, oh, well, this is the really sensitive part because you're not living. You know, it's. I guess I'm just trying to be in touch with what I'm feeling and what many of our audience would think about a Stake president that would sometimes dress as female and feel like Heavenly Father was celebrating that. Am I overstating that?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:00:32] I don't think you're overstating that, John. Just My own lived experience was self acceptance, relieved me from the shame that I self imposed and that I felt, had felt through so much of my life. And although highly unorthodox, if it were to be presented as the cold, hard facts, the reality was my lived experience was free of those feelings of guilt. Wow. I. I would venture, and. And this is not something everyone agrees with, but the mantra of it's okay to have these feelings but don't act on them is harmful to the transgender individual because not taking action on mitigating dysphoria puts one at great health risk. And so people could call that a rationalization. But there is in my mind, no sin in living authentically. And I don't believe that Father sees it as sin. And hence there's nothing to repent of that subject. If there's no sin, if there's no law, there's no sin, there's no penalty, there's no remorse, it can't be repented of. It's not wrong in and of itself to live authentically.

Church Policy on Transgender Members

John Dehlin [01:02:25] So maybe it's worth mentioning how the Proclamation of the family might play into this question or might not. And then also, what is the church policy around transgender individuals? Do you mind just summarizing those two things really quick and then how you saw yourself fitting within that?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:45] Yeah, I did a lot of personal work with the Proclamation to reach a point where I felt, and prior to all of this taking place, really to where I felt that I understood for myself, where I fit in relationship to the statements in the Proclamation, which are generally accepted as the teachings of the brethren today. The specific statement that's frequently wielded, usually negatively, against transgender individuals in the Church, the Proclamation is that in essence, paraphrasing gender identity is part of our eternal nature. And I love the fact that the phrase gender identity is used because it doesn't say physical sex is a part of our eternal nature. It says that gender identity is a part of our eternal nature, our eternal identity and our purpose. And for me, that language is quite comforting and gives me the reason to sense that if Father is comfortable with the authentic me, then my eternal God given gender identity is eternal. And what's incongruent is aspects of my physical and mortal body and how that came to pass. There's all kinds of scientific discussion about how that can occur. But when challenged with that phrase regarding gender identity from the Proclamation, I can without hesitation accept it as it says that gender identity is eternal, because I feel that as well.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] So in that sense, there's no problem

Laurie Lee Hall [01:04:53] I do not have a conflict in the least bit with the proclamation as

John Dehlin [01:04:58] it states what it's not saying. And this is probably sounding a little bit technical, and I may masquerade what it's not saying is someone's outwardly expressed gender identity is always a turtle. Right. Because sometimes they're assigned the incorrect gender.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:05:16] Right. And so it's more a matter of

John Dehlin [01:05:19] changing the outward expression to reflect what has always been eternal versus gender. Actually, not being eternal, my own lived

Laurie Lee Hall [01:05:29] experience is ultimately transitioning that gender presentation so that that gender presentation is consistent with the eternal and internal gender identity simply puts an individual in a position to be the best version of themselves, which to me, suggests more capable of doing good and being the best version of themselves. I can't think of a better place for a person to be thankful than to be alive and authentic and to be allowed to be that person that they are.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Absolutely. So how did this. How did this. Oh, okay. And then what about church doctrine around church policy around transgender issues? Talk about that just really quickly separate from proclamation of the family.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:06:41] Right. I'm not aware doctrinally of anything that specifically relates to the transgender individual, so

John Dehlin [01:06:49] scriptures are pretty silent on it.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:06:51] God created male and female, and from there, we interpret, I suppose, I guess some have interpreted that God created male and female to mean physical bodies, male and female, but I think it's more complex than that. And the existence of intersex individuals would certainly help to demonstrate that there are some anomalies in the mortal body that make complex the issue of black and white, male and female. And yet I can still, for myself anyway, from my own experience, wrap myself around the notion that gender identity is eternal in terms of church policy. I think, and again, I'm speaking on my own opinion at this point, that. And not on behalf of the church and not as a former church leader or a church employee. My own personal opinion is that it's the lack of clear direction on how local leaders should treat transgender members of the church that makes our experience very difficult at this point in time. For those of us that are trying to be active and faithful members of the church while dealing with the issues associated with our gender identity, gender dysphoria, mitigation, and all of the issues around the personal health impacts that these things create, clear direction to leaders on how to be compassionate, how to be understanding, how to help others understand, and maybe to recognize that this unorthodox behavior does not constitute sin. If that were the determination, all of that, I think, could go to creating self acceptance. I mean broader acceptance and affirmation amongst members to the point where it would be tolerable for us to attend our meetings and participate and worship in the church.

John Dehlin [01:09:24] So a lack of training and education amongst the leadership is felt.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:09:35] It's felt on our part, those of us who are active in the church. I consider myself to continue to be active in the Church, although I've lost the privileges of membership. But I know several, many, many, many individuals who are in some portion, some part of their journey of transition, of presentation, and are still striving to be active in the LDS Church and experience a wide, wide variety of treatment on the part of their local leaders. In some cases, extremely supportive and in other cases, quite hurtful. Sure.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] And then I've been trying to reference this, that there is some mention of. Of some select transgender issues in the Church Handbook of Instructions. Can you talk about that really quick?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:10:39] And again, what I'm aware of is that the current version of the handbook, at least when I was serving, explains that elective transsexual surgery may be cause for church disciplinary action. And it's actually factual that a transsexual surgery having to do with modification of genitals is extremely uncommon amongst transgender persons. And that's a very rare instance that the handbook treats. And it treats it on a couple of other issues, too, as well as holding priesthood or being baptized or receiving temple ordinances and so forth. But it always comes down to that one relatively uncommon and very narrow definition. Otherwise, the Handbook of Instructions, as I'm understanding it, remembering it from my service, is quiet. Concerning every other aspect of the lived experience of a transgender member, I'll go on record as stating that I have no interest whatsoever in the surgery that the handbook refers to. It's not a part of my plan, and it's not a part of who I plan that I will ever be. And so I'm really walking, as many others are walking in a space now that there is no definition, there is no guidance or direction, and where there is no law, there is no sin. Hmm.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] So in your mind, you've violated no policy in the handbook.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:12:35] None whatsoever.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] So I'd like to begin maybe discussing the Dysonary Council and those sorts of things. But before we do, maybe just talk about. Well, actually, let's go and do that. So what I'm gonna do is just say this ends sort of part three of our interview. Kimberly Anderson said she's hoping for a part 4 nudge. Nudge is what she said. So we'll give it to you, Kimberly. We're gonna have a part four super hot in this room right now as the lights are bearing down. The lights that came with Anderson told me to buy, by the way, but this has been a wonderful interview. We want to thank everyone who's still joining us live. We've got well over 100 people still tuned in listening to my interview with Lori Lee hall, and we've talked about so many important things. And so what we're going to do next is talk about how this came to a head with church leadership, Laurie's discussions with church leadership, her being released from the Stake presidency and then what led to her excommunication, what that was like and what she believes. Now. We're gonna try and cover all that in about 30 minutes. So it's gonna be fun. So thanks for everyone for tuning in and join us for part four. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 773

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. And we're back for part four of our interview with Lori Lee hall, and we're now at the Point. It's been an epic interview so far, and we're thankful for everyone who's joining us on Facebook Live. We still want to encourage you to put up your comments and questions there. It says we've had over 7,000 views so far and 63,000 people reach. So that's not a bad reach. And we're grateful for everyone who's still tuning in. Over 130 people are still tuned in, and now it's time to talk about when things came to a head. So, Laurie Lee, you're still a few months away from being released as Stake President. What can you share about how that sort of concluded?

Being Released as Stake President

Laurie Lee Hall [00:01:30] There are details concerning that conclusion that I'm not comfortable sharing, but ultimately general authorities at all of the highest levels became aware of my personal identification as a transgender person at that time.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Not through your coming out, not through other means.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:01:56] Yeah, through other means that I'm not going to get into.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] Right.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:02:00] And that began a series of interviews that I'm not going to share a great deal of detail regarding. But it did place at risk my service in the church, as well as my employment in the church at that time. It was determined that the right, and quite frankly from my perspective as well, the merciful thing to do would be to extend me an honorable release. And I appreciated that it was handled in a very appropriate manner. I had served more than eight years and was allowed to depart without any guilt or shame imposed.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] Did you want to keep serving or did you want to be released?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:02:47] I would have been willing to keep serving, but the release came as a great relief to me because of the duress I was under at that point. So the fact that it was concluded that it was appropriate to extend the release at that time, I felt very comfortable with that. And the way that it was handled was very positive in its outward expression, which I think was a benefit and a blessing to the congregation generally.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] What was the duress? I mean, you felt Good. With Heavenly Father. You were starting to be able to be authentic. You had self accepted. You had come out to your wife and kids. What was the duress of continuing to serve?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:03:28] It stemmed around how difficult it was at that time to be processing the social dysphoria as I was coming out to individuals and the difficulty that that continued to create at home and in other relationships. It was just too much to handle. And the release was merciful.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Okay, so you're worried it would come out. You're worried you'd be caught or, you know, ratted out or.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:03:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] And you can't be authentic.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:04:02] I didn't have tons of fear in those things, but there was just a lot to process at the time.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] It's just. I mean, just to go through it is its own thing.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:04:10] Right? Yeah, there was a lot of. I was also grateful that the decision was made that I was otherwise worthy and should continue to serve as an employee, even though I had these feelings and steps were taken to point out to me how I needed to live to qualify for church employment going forward. And I did what I could with those constraints.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Are you comfortable sharing what those conditions were?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:04:44] Not. Not so much.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:04:47] Just to say that they were hard and ultimately harmful to continue to follow. I think it's all I should say. But all of that, you know, I went the next four years being able to work and do quality work up until the time of.

Transitioning While Working at Church Headquarters

John Dehlin [00:05:12] So you worked four years at church headquarters after being released to stake president?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:05:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] With the general authorities knowing that you identified that you were. That you considered yourself female in every way? Yeah. And how was that?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:05:30] It was intriguing.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Did your status go down as an employee?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:05:36] Ultimately I was assigned. Reassigned to a different assignment. It gave me the opportunity to do the work on certain special projects. And I wasn't working with temples anymore directly, but ultimately gave me the chance to work on the missionary training centers, which I found to be super fulfilling as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] So you didn't feel it was a demotion or you did a little bit or.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:02] It hurt initially because I felt that it was connected, but I got over it.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Okay. And you loved doing the mtc and

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:11] I loved the work that I did, you know, from then on, which I think actually was the way that it needed to be because good things were accomplished.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Were you allowed to keep your temple recommend?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:23] I did all the way through that time frame.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] And your testimony remained intact. Okay. So anything else? Just about your experiences working at the church once. Once the brethren knew?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:06:43] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Okay. So I guess tell me if I'm wrong. But the next thing is maybe to talk about how your kind of what changed. I'm imagining that the pressures internally for you to fully express outwardly your known gender identity as female began to build. And then I imagine some interesting conversations started happening with your bishop, and then maybe eventually your stake president. Is that kind of what's next in the story?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:07:15] I think so, yeah. And there was another wrinkle that occurred at that time. My spouse had previously succeeded in overcoming cancer back in our history, before all of these things that we've talked about. But the cancer recurred at that time as well. Much of the next couple of years was also focused on getting her the treatment that she needed so that she could conquer cancer a second time, which ultimately occurred happily. Yeah. And so it was an intense time where meeting her needs was tantamount. And some of mine went on the shelf a little bit, but they still were there as well. And so we were mutually taking care of each other at times. Just another example of how much adversity we were able to swim through together with each other's help and support. But ultimately, additional steps of transition medically and in terms of presentation became necessary for me. I like to explain that although for some my changes seem to move quickly, for me they seem to be moving slowly and slower than I would have hoped. And for others, it was moving faster than they would have hoped.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] But were you in your mid-50s when this was happening?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:08:58] Early 50s. Early 50s, yeah. Early 50s,

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Yeah. That's not. That's not quick.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:09:08] I waited a long time, but then it's process of. Then taking steps over the ensuing couple of years. I really tried very hard to not take the next step until I couldn't not take the next step any longer.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Yeah, right. I get that.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:09:26] Yeah. And in so doing, each step became a real necessity, including starting on appropriate hormone treatment.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Is it estrogen that one takes?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:09:44] Right. As well as suppression of testosterone, which was amazing. The change involved. It was truly like putting unleaded fuel in your diesel Volkswagen Jetta for 50 years and expecting it to run well. And finally overhauling the engine and feeding it the diesel fuel that it needs.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Nice metaphor.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:10:13] And see how well it runs after that. That was my lived experience.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] You could feel congruence flowing into your.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:10:23] Absolutely. Internal chemical conflict that I wouldn't have recognized until it was gone. I often refer to the fact that that kind of conflict is like standing on the Runway of an airport with a jet engine roaring in your ear. And if you do that long Enough. Your hearing is dull and you become accustomed to it, even though it's so loud you can't think of, but you don't notice it after a while until somebody shuts the engine off and suddenly there's that peace and quiet and the opportunity to start to appreciate things beyond the deafening sound of the jet engine.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Absolutely love that metaphor.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:11:15] And I began to experience life that way.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] And how was that for you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:11:20] Extraordinary. Words can't describe being relieved of the conflict and having the beauty of life opened up to me. It really, in my impression, it affected every interface I had with everyone. Every experience that I have is experienced through new eyes. The intellect is still there, is the same, but it's as though the heart has been completely changed and set free.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] I'm so happy for you.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] So as you're guessing that as you more and more in this timeline are feeling comfortable expressing outwardly as female and even beginning hormone treatment, I'm guessing that might start to put pressure on the terms of your employment, but you don't need to necessarily talk about that or your membership or your relationship with church leaders. So what, if any, of that is important to tell next in the story?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:12:41] Yeah, I think my own belief as I was walking that walk was that, for example, taking the step to begin medically treating my dysphoria with hormone therapy was a medical necessity. Important as it was for my wife to receive radiation treatment to cure her of cancer. That in reality, No judgment should be offered to a person who's receiving competent medical attention from those that are skilled in treating the diagnosable condition of that individual. Nor would anyone really want the liability of telling someone, don't do that, even though it's going to save your life, improve your health, give you a greater quality of life, any those outcomes, but don't do that, because I don't think I like that.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] For you to do that, and whether it's.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:14:04] It's. It became for me an absolute medical necessity. And so I took the step with the support of my spouse, who very quickly saw the changes, the positive changes to me, and she realized that we had done the right thing.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] That must have been a relief to get that support. Yeah. Yeah, because. And I don't. I'm uncomfortable talking about this medically as if it's an illness, because when you. You invoke the analogy of chemotherapy, you know, it's treating cancer, you're not. You're not treating a sickness you're actually getting. Well. But I think of SSRIs, that a depressed person might take to help them feel better.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:14:55] It's the same. And you're absolutely right. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I consider being transgender as an illness. That's not the case. I was using the analogy simply to point out that those things that are of medical necessity aren't subject to the judgment of others who aren't the individual or near physician. Sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] You should celebrate. You're getting well.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:15:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Feeling better.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:15:24] There should be a respect for that. There should be celebration for that if the outcomes are as positive as the outcomes have been for me. So as I traveled that part of the journey, I again, I felt no, I felt nothing inappropriate. I felt no guilt or shame as a result of was liberating and I was able to live a fuller and more joyful life.

Coming Out in the Workplace and to Local Leaders

John Dehlin [00:15:55] So when did things come to head with your leadership and how,

Laurie Lee Hall [00:16:02] when, when I reached that point that I've described to earlier in earlier segments of Live authentically or perish, and that was in May of last year, it became apparent to me that regardless of the risks, it was time to start placing those other identities on the altar.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] And begins May of 2016.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:16:32] Right. And began to live authentically. True to my core identity as a woman. That meant, among other things, somehow helping my ward and stake family to know that this was had been occurring and was going to occur going forward and to seek understanding with regard to that. I ultimately did that a year ago in a fast and testimony meeting experience.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] You had a Savannah experience.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:17:12] I did. I had a Savannah experience. Amazing what she had the confidence and courage to do. I had a similar experience last year.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Now, was this after you had stopped

Laurie Lee Hall [00:17:27] working for the church or you were still working for the church, still employed,

John Dehlin [00:17:31] and when you were attending church, were you presenting as male?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:17:35] I was presenting as mail on that day when I stood in the context of a testimony meeting, explained my experiences in a very much shorter version of what we've just talked about.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Not a four hour, not a four hour version testimony.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:17:52] No. And let the members know that this was my truth.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] What a powerful moment. That takes courage.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:18:02] It did.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] But maybe not. If you're.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:18:05] I look at it as when you're at the point of authenticity or perish, you do what you have to do. I had spent a lot of my life doing what I had to do, doing what I had to do to be accepted. And I finally reached the point where I had to do what I had to do to be authentic, not accepted. And if those who heard the message chose to accept as well, good. If they Didn't. I'm sorry. But I had to live authentically from that point forward. So my presentation at church from that week on, from the following week on, was as female.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] So for over a year, you've been attending your ward presenting as female.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:18:50] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] And was that like. Was that the point where your full presentation transition occurred? Where from then on in all aspects of your life, you would present as female or most.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:19:07] Nothing. Nothing happens with the snap of a finger. So there were several weeks where my presentation everywhere but at work was female,

John Dehlin [00:19:20] including with kids and grandkids.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:19:22] Absolutely. And had been the case with them at home beforehand. But ultimately the same urgency or necessity to live authentically was also true at work. And my hope, although I had really no belief that it could occur, but my hope would have been to have been able to transition presentation and remained an employee, which is actually protected by law for non religious employers here in the state. Those discussions took place and circumstances arose that made it evident that that transition and living authentically would not allow me to continue to be an employee of the church.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] So as far as you know, no one's ever transitioned their gender presentation while a church employee?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:20:28] I'm not aware of it.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:20:31] I would have been happy to have been the first because I felt that I still had much to offer and even more to offer now. Relieved of the baggage of the conflict that I had felt

John Dehlin [00:20:50] and to pave

Laurie Lee Hall [00:20:50] the way for others as well.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] Yeah, but it wasn't to be.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:20:54] It wasn't to be. Fortunately, I had reached a point where, with 20 years in that I could take retirement and was vested in benefits and so forth, was able to depart. Many transgender individuals lose their employment at points in their life where they wouldn't have those levels of security. And that is a huge challenge and issue. That's why I think the state's protection of employees put in place in March of 2015, that allows gender presentation transition to occur without any threat of losing employment. Is such a valuable law, part of what was termed the Utah Compromise, because I know friends who have been able to make that transition on the job and have retained their jobs. Unemployment amongst transgender persons is extremely high, and the difficulty of maintaining employment, particularly higher employment or professional employment through transition, is. Is still quite difficult and in many places not protected by law.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Gotta fix that. Gotta work on that.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:22:17] I would hope so. I would hope that that could be throughout the country as a standard, because at the end of the day, what harm is there to an individual presenting authentically and doing their best work as their best version of their self. An employer should want that person, and

John Dehlin [00:22:45] a Christian should want that, and humans should want that. So how did you run sideways with church leadership? What happened? You came out in what I would say, in my mind was a spectacular testimony meeting. You start presenting everywhere at some point. So you retired from the church when?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:23:09] In September of last year. All of my male clothing was generously donated to the Desert Industry store. And basically, I was full time at that point and also began very, very quickly the process of legal name change and gender marker change on all my legal documents that apply to me currently. And so that process took place, further affirming, you know, I am who I am, and governments agree.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] Now, that seems probably trivial or symbolic, but I'm guessing that is actually not

Laurie Lee Hall [00:23:54] trivial, ordinarily important to an individual. I had had an experience where I was presenting as female prior to getting all of my name changes finished, where I presented my debit card at a restaurant for the meal that I had just eaten. I was presenting as female. And up until the moment the manager of the restaurant looked at my debit card and saw my birth name, which outed me as transgender. And then he spoke some words very loudly so that everyone in the restaurant could hear that we're not kind or affirmative at all. So it was hugely important to be able to get all those documents that we use day to day and take for granted to have the correct name, to have the correct gender marker, to not put myself at risk of shame or ridicule, at least, or actual other physical health risks on the bad side.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] Excellent. Okay, so then how did things go awry with your local leadership?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:25:11] This isn't because it's so recent and fresh. It's not something that we're going to delve into an enormous amount of detail on.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Oh, whatever you want.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:25:20] But the going back to the meeting a year ago where I came out, the observation was, is that. And this is really quite remarkable how this occurs. Fellow ward members sitting in the same meeting in the same room had completely diametrically opposite experiences with the words that I spoke. Some people expressed to me great love and support, appreciation for the words that I spoke and for having the courage to come out and be able to speak authentically. I had people tell me it was the most spiritual sacrament they'd been in in years. But there were others in the room at the same time who felt the exact opposite, that it was entirely inappropriate, that it was detrimental to them and to their families. And those people didn't come to talk to me about it. But spoke to church leaders instead. I don't blame them for the way that they felt. I feel sad that that was the result when I know that others felt a very positive thing come out of it. But it's a. It's a fact of life that that occurred. Unfortunately, I think, just to summarize, in the following year, up until now, there are. Because I took it upon myself to do this journey and make this change in the place where we've lived and been known and been prominent for over 20 years, because it occurred there for all to see who knew me when and who had looked to me for that example that they expect from their church leader. For that to occur in front of everyone elicited two very strong responses. Deep love and respect on the one hand, and angst and pain and anger on the other hand. And ultimately those in the second category who were feeling anger and pain had voice with within our stake. And it was determined that this quartering council should be held. And the result of that council was excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] And so I guess. I guess what I'm hearing you say is that members of the ward and stake and eventually leadership became increasingly uncomfortable with you presenting as female.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:29] Some did.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] Some did. Some did. But enough people did.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:34] Apparently, enough people did.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Enough people empowered did.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:28:37] Where

John Dehlin [00:28:40] I imagine, and I'm sensing you don't want to talk about those conversations, but were you in dialogue with leadership over this? Were you trying to explain to them what was going on and what you were feeling and what doctrine was, what your feelings were, what the policies were trying to strike a compromise?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:29:02] All of the above. And the sad thing for me is that I truly feel that people who had influence and could teach love, acceptance, affirmation, beyond tolerance to embracing not necessarily the actions, but never losing compassion or empathy for the individual. And those lessons were not taught. And had they been, all of this would have been unnecessary. All of what took place would have been unnecessary.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] And what, as you're and I and I love and respect that you're wanting to maintain privacy or confidentiality or discretion as related to your discussions, you know, separate from the actual disciplinary council, what could they say that you were doing wrong from a doctrinal or a policy perspective? You didn't have the elective surgery. I shouldn't call it elective. You didn't have any surgery.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:30:18] The handbook calls it elective. So that's where that term comes from.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Okay, sorry. Thank you. So you didn't have the surgery. You had retained your faith. You weren't apostatizing and there's no policy around gender expression or doctrine. So I'm just trying to imagine how they're talking to you about stop this or stop that or cut this out when you're not really doing anything wrong by church's standards

Laurie Lee Hall [00:30:52] as we interpret it. And.

John Dehlin [00:30:56] Well, are you able to describe how they interpreted it?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:00] There was the concern with regard to what I mentioned about the proclamation on the family and the definition of eternal gender identity were a part on whether or not that means sex equals gender and whether sex is eternal or not.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] So you had told them how you

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:27] felt repeatedly, and they.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] They didn't like your interpretation of gender as it related to the proclamation.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:34] It didn't align with their interpretation.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] And yet some would say the proclamation isn't canonized yet. So, I mean, that's a weird thing to have differences over a little bit for me.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:43] Yeah, it is for me as well. At the end of the day, to really cut to the chase.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] You don't want to talk much about this?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:31:51] Well, no, it really was very difficult to explain what I had done wrong for them. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] Did they try?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:32:01] I think so. I'm not confident that I, in fact, am very confident saying a different way that I have not done anything wrong. And it was surprising to me and to many others that the action that was taken was taken.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] Did they give you ultimatums?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:32:29] I was told prior to the disciplinary council that I had two choices. I could resign, write a letter and resign my membership in the church, or I could detransition and live again as male. Those were my two choices.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] And how did those choices occur to you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:32:49] Well, it was very quick for me to be able to say that as I had previously explained, the medical necessity and the personal health necessity and the personal integrity issue of living authentically, of being as physically and medically and in terms of external presentation as authentic to my female identity as possible. There was no possible way I could return to living as male and to resubject myself to all of that conflict and pain for the sake of an appearance. Then secondly, I had no mind or there was no sense in my heart to resign from the church. I had no desire to do that whatsoever.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] So what if somebody were to say to you, number one, obedience, if the brethren like to obey, is better to sacrifice, right? That if the brethren are saying to you, go back to presenting as male, that that should be a sacrifice you make out of your love for the gospel and your commitment to obedience to the Lord's servants, number one, and your beliefs, you know, are to follow the Brethren, I'm sure. And then also, just what if people were to say to you what they say to many of our LGB brothers and sisters, which is just have some more faith. Have some more. Draw closer to Christ in the atonement. If you can just be more righteous, this can be your sacrifice on the altar. This can be your, you know, thorn

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:35] in the flesh, if you will. That has to be endured.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] You're thorn. Thank you. The thorn in the flesh.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:40] I've heard all of this before.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] So these were things.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:34:43] Oh, yes, absolutely. And it comes down to the fact that I know where I stand in God's eyes and knowing that makes all the difference in the world. I know that he knows who I am and I know what he knows with regard to my identity. Ultimately, after obedience, after submission and sacrifice and faith, it's incumbent upon us to live true to the light that God has given each one of us individually and regardless of external forces. I've had that light given to me and I am walking in faith to that truth that I received. And that trumps everything else. And it doesn't apply to another soul on earth. I am accountable to God for my actions and I'm accountable to him to live according to the light that I've received from Him. And I believe that I am.

Personal Revelation Versus Institutional Authority

John Dehlin [00:36:03] And as a Mormon, it's so un Mormon to contemplate the idea that personal revelation can trump the brethren, the priesthood, leadership. Like, you know, when Hiram Page or whoever started using their seer stone and Joseph didn't like it, Joseph's, you know, Joseph won. You know, I mean, it seems like hierarchy and patriarchy and obedience to authority is like the backbone of the restoration. And so to hear you say living my truth trumps the inspiration of the leadership and maybe you didn't say that.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:36:47] I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Okay, so talk about how orthodox Mormon can feel good about you, not just simply submitting and obeying.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:36:57] So two conditions exist. Referring to Hyrum Page's situation. He was attempting to use his inspiration, if you will, to influence others. I am not. As I mentioned, the light that I've received is for me personally and has no bearing on how others should live their life or choices that they should make. And by all means, it does not constitute God's direction to his church through me, because that's not how it comes. And I recognize that. But one of the Orsons, and I can't remember which one, spoke to this topic in the later part of the 19th century, that every individual is responsible to God, accountable to God, to live according to the light that they receive, not the light that was given to their neighbor. And I believe that I've, as I've discussed through all of these segments, I've had a healthy and very intimate and consistent relationship with the Holy Spirit, and that continues to bless my life today. And I continue to walk in a way that I believe is correct for me personally. And I would hope that if others found themselves with their truth, their light being in conflict with whatever circumstances they might be in, that my story might help to give them courage to accept their truth, to embrace it, to step into it, to stand in it, and to walk according to the faith that they have, whatever that may be. Am I being deliberately disobedient to anything that the brethren have taught? I'm not aware of it, but I physically couldn't continue to exist, waiting for the day which I hope comes when further direction regarding the transgender Latter Day Saint comes to the church generally. And Father in his mercy, has shown me a path that helps me to live and to love and to serve as myself.

The Disciplinary Council and Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:39:47] So for those of you joining us who have sat through four hours of my interview, my brilliant, amazing, inspiring interview with Lori Lee hall, we're right in the middle of part four. Thanks. I can already see 17 people have rejoined. We're right in the middle of her story about her interactions with church leadership, the events leading up to the disciplinary council, and, and we're talking right now about how she's retained her faith in the restoration and even in the inspiration of the LDS Church and feels very comfortable saying that she was living her truth based on her understanding of God and inspiration for her, while not attempting to preach or teach anything outside of that very specific line of authority from her to God and back. And Lori Lee, I have a question about that. I can see your leaders saying, okay, well, that's fine, but you're, you know, number one, you're influencing other people. That even though you're not preaching that people should, you know, transition their gender identity, there are people watching. And so you're going to be influencing people. And so even by living your truth, you're sort of teaching people to defy the church's doctrine or their leadership just through your example, even if your words aren't saying it. I can see leaders saying that. And then I can see leaders also saying your position as former bishop, former stake president makes it even less acceptable because where much is given, much is required. You've been looked up to. You've had a position of influence and authority, and now all of a sudden you're confusing them. You're not living in accordance with the leadership and the teachings, and it's just a bad example, bad for the church, bad for the membership. I'm speculating on all that, but maybe how would you respond to that being somewhat relevant to your case?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:42:01] I think that was very good without me having divulged that too. That's a very good explanation of some of the conclusions that were being drawn. It was interesting. Back to the actual lived experience. The After I came out and as my presentation adjusted, several members of the ward and or stake came to my home or messaged me or spoke with me by the phone, seeking understanding, but also coming from a perspective of, as you described, being confused, feeling betrayed, feeling quite angry that a person of my former stature, if you will, could take such a step so publicly, so contrary in their impression to what orthodox would suggest. And invariably, each of those individuals that came to me with very strong emotions to discuss those things and perhaps to even pin me down on them ultimately left, after often many hours of conversation, with greater understanding, greater compassion, and I think we always parted as friends. I think those who have attempted to understand more fully the circumstances of my situation and of those who experience gender dysphoria, all who've made the effort to understand have been wonderfully loving and supportive towards me. I wish that many, many more would have felt to have those conversations with me as opposed to shunning or avoiding or judging.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Right, so. So you did have those conversations, but you. You had to live your truth, and ultimately you couldn't submit to their conditions of going back to presenting as male. And you said you had no desire, and I'm inferring that it would have potentially been fatal for you to do so, and so that. Can you talk about how you first heard about the disciplinary council being called, what was in the letter or what was in the conversation, and what was that like for you?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:44:54] So it was in the same conversation where the ultimatum of the two choices was offered, that ultimately the third choice was that there would be a disciplinary council. And the date was set on the spot. Knowing that that was coming, I actually began grieving its outcome in advance. Some would say that's, you know, that's. That's worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. But it was fairly evident to me that if I was asked to resign my membership, that the conclusion of the council was really already a foregone determination. And so I began grieving the loss.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] That's a really good point, and it's very common in my disciplinary council. That was the very first thing that the stake president started with, is resign. And I never made the connection that. That pretty much demonstrates that the decision had already been made. Thank you for helping me process my own excommunication. And it's been true for everyone that I've ever talked to about their own excommunication. So the decision already been made.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:05] The decision. And in my mind and heart, the decision had been made, and I began to mourn the loss of the privileges of membership.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Now, before you were. You mean before you were.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:46:16] Well, before. Weeks before the actual council took place. And I probably seemed rather composed when the Council actually took place, because I had really gone through my grieving process. And I simply came to the council with the hope that I could express something that maybe I had failed to express more fully before, that maybe would help to influence the hearts of those in the council to feel some level of understanding and compassion for my situation and to recognize that there really isn't any quantifiable sin and that there's really, in my mind, nothing that can change that I can change that will allow me to be readmitted. There should be a process which is I change certain behaviors and I return. I don't know what those are that I could actually do.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] When I was excommunicated, I both received a letter that stated the charges, and in my meeting with my stake president, he was very explicit. These are the things you did that you're going to get a disciplinary council for. Did you get that prior at all?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:47:41] I went through that process, but I'm not going to delve into the specifics of the language, but it was already apparent to me that the decision had been made. So the words on the paper, although I felt, were quite inadequate to carry off a council, and particularly to act as the Council did. The words were inadequate, but it was a.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] The charge was apostasy. Are you.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:07] That was part of it.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:48:08] That was a part of it. And I really felt that I was able to explain why. I don't feel that I'm living in apostasy, but I think a lot of it came back as she said, that there were many members of our units that were uncomfortable with my actions. I own my actions, and I'm not shy, nor am I particularly apologetic for the actions I've had to take. But I would welcome every opportunity to sit with those who are uncomfortable with my actions and help them to see what I've experienced and understand better. Perhaps they would still walk away feeling that I had taken the wrong path. But I think there's an opportunity for a lot better understanding. That's likely to not occur, except perhaps in a very few instances, but it would be very valuable if it did. Meanwhile, I am here today sharing my story in significant detail, to hopefully let my voice ripple out to others who can, through their actions or maybe through something that they see that I have done, get in a position where they can help others around them to understand our circumstances, their circumstances, if that's the case, and find a higher level of understanding and acceptance and compassion and empathy. That has been my particular experience.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Sure.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:49:57] I simply hope that these words, this message, can help, if possible, save some from significant conflict and if possible, make those conflicts go away and make the journey a lot easier.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] Can, you know, not going anywhere you don't feel comfortable. Can you talk about you went into the disciplinary council optimistically hoping that maybe some hearts and minds would be changed. Can you talk about what that experience was like? Was it a court of love for you? And what was it like to be tried, I guess, by your former first and second counselor, and I'm guessing a high council that you were very familiar with. What would you like to share or be willing to share about disciplinary councils in general in that experience that you had and your personal experience with that particular group of men?

Choosing Not to Attend the Disciplinary Council

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:01] They were very familiar to me and I to them. We spoke earlier about my experiences with disciplinary councils generally. So I'm not going to go back and reply that.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] I mean, did you feel it was

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:16] a court of love for you, this particular circumstance? A lot of love was expressed. Unfortunately, I did not feel that love. I felt a lot of hurt, a lot of pain on the parts of those in the room. And it was a very sad experience.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] How so?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:44] To see how much pain people were in. They were in pain that they were in.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] What do you think their pain was about?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:51:58] I don't. Don't completely understand, and maybe that's what they're trying to get my attention. But. There are many who apparently are still grieving the loss of the person that they thought I was and could no longer be. And so I was probably witnessing a significant amount of personal and collective grieving going on.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] It was a death of sorts for them.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:52:41] Absolutely. And I think it was extremely hard. I think that that grieving continues and yet there's no vehicle for me to help them do the work necessary to process that. But I. This will sound surprising, perhaps to many, but despite what was occurring, I had great empathy for what they were passing through and what they were expressing that was unresolved in their minds and hearts.

Processing Excommunication and Continuing Faith

John Dehlin [00:53:31] And what was that like for you to be ultimately excommunicated, cut off? Not only when you feel like you weren't aware of any commandment that you had violated, any covenant you had violated, but it was a church that you continued and continued to this day to believe in. What was that like?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:53:56] As I mentioned, a lot of that processing and grieving took place even before the disciplinary council. But other than having a little bit of the shock of the experience, which continued for a few days afterwards, there were some things that I felt in that room that I wish I hadn't felt. But really for me, what has come out of it is the strong sense of those things that I've shared kind of in the theme of this discussion, that I can stand in my truth and simultaneously walk in my faith. My faith is intact in terms of having faith and testimony in God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and his atonement, in the ministry of the Holy Ghost, in the reality of the covenants that I've made with my Father, in the relationship I have with them, and the way that has that blessed my life and enabled me to bless others lives. I have great faith in those things that is untarnished by the results of these actions. And at the same time I really feel that I can and should do good in the walk as I go forward, trying to represent myself living authentically and give others hope that they can as well. And that although the course may still be challenging and there may be significant social and cultural and religious and institutional objections and challenges along the way, that folks can live true to themselves, keep their faith. A lot of people feel injured by the church and by other churches. This is not exclusively a Mormon thing. Religion in general has, some would claim has injured them. But my hope would be that those who are presently believing and dealing with the kinds of conflicts that I have dealt with over the past several years would know that it's going to be okay, that you can find your way through it. Don't lose hope, don't lose faith. Don't lose the faith that you have, even if the faith rejects you for a season.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] I'm simultaneously inspired and conflicted. I really admire your faith and faith and I love this story so much. And I've long believed and have heard people say you shouldn't have to choose, for example, between the person you love and your faith. And I've also heard people say, well, I'm sort of feeling from this conversation that you shouldn't have to choose between your wholeness, your gender identity, your truth, as you like to say. You shouldn't have to choose between that and your faith. Right, I agree.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:57:44] You shouldn't have to. I believe they should coexist.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] And yet. And yet I'm just. And this was probably the number one question people asked is how can you. How do you retain faith in the restoration when it's the product of the restoration that has overtly excommunicated you and cut you off and refuses to accept who you are and who you know yourself to be and who you know God accepts you to be? Why, for so. So many, they don't go through this epic journey you've been through. They just. I don't want to say just, but for them, it's. They stumble upon information, or they learn about Joseph Smith or details about the Book of Mormon or whatever, polygamy, and for them, they're thrown into this big sense of feeling betrayed and. And anger and wanting to reject the church because they feel the church hasn't been honest. You've got this entire layer of overt denial of who you are and overt rejection. I would just assume, oh, transgender, excommunicated, no longer believing in the church. And yet that's not true. How do you do that? How have you done that?

Laurie Lee Hall [00:59:13] What would you say to someone who

John Dehlin [00:59:14] said, you're just not there yet. You just haven't processed it long enough? This won't last. Lots of questions there.

Laurie Lee Hall [00:59:22] Sure, sure. I promise those. Kind of working your thoughts backwards. I promise those who might think that I haven't processed this sufficiently. There's been a lot of processing going on for a very long time on these subjects, and I guess I've been careful to indicate that my faith and trust is in deity, is in the ministry of the Savior and of the Holy Ghost, and also in the covenants that were offered to me through the vehicle of the LDS Church that I made not with the church, but with God. As you spoke, John, as you kind of laid out this next scenario, it occurred to me that my sense towards the church and the fact that it was restored and that it operates as it does today is that it's not a static situation, that, yes, something happened in time, I was excommunicated, but across time, there's going to continue to be an evolution and a restoration of knowledge with regard to the things that we're talking about. I believe in that. I have hope that through the mechanism that restored many things that are precious to Me that ultimately further understanding and belief will come revelation, if you will, that it's appropriate to welcome people like myself in whatever way is appropriate within the doctrine of the church and allow that to occur. I continue to associate with the church because I love many of the people who I serve with there, and I continue to serve them despite the loss of privileges of membership.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] You still attend?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:01:30] Still attend. I attend what I'm allowed to attend.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] Meaning you can't attend Relief Society?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:01:37] That's correct.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Would you like to?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:01:39] Absolutely. I would love to be welcome there, even as a former member. I would certainly love to be welcomed there as member in good standing at present.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] Are you allowed to attend Relief Society?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:01:54] No.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] You've been. Okay.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:01:56] Although many transgender individuals are allowed by their local leaders to attend the third hour meeting that aligns with their presentation.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] They just don't have your history, apparently. Or leadership.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:09] Yeah, history and.

John Dehlin [01:02:10] Or leadership.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:12] Former prominence, whatever it might be. Yeah. But it's not uncommon. About 50, 50, if you will. Fact of attending transgender transitioned Latter Day Saints are allowed participation in their third hour class of their correct presentation.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] Not you.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:31] But I wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] That's got to be hard after all those years of decades of service.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:02:35] It's heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking as late as last Sunday to have wonderful spiritual experiences, even as a former member in sacrament meetings and Sunday schools, and then to need to walk home because I, for some reason, don't qualify to stay and enjoy the last hour with the same people that I've been with the previous hour. How do I reconcile all of this? As I mentioned, I believe there's fluidity in all of this, and I believe that change will occur. I couldn't wait for that change to occur on a general level. And so I did what I had to do. For myself, personally, I believe that there are within the operations of the church already leaders at all levels who are part of that acceptance and change. And I have friends who are loved and supported in the units where they attend, which all signals to me that my circumstances, although harsh, they're not unique, but they're also not indicative of the church worldwide.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] Does that give you hope?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:04:14] Absolutely. Things can be different. There can be a place for me and for others in my situation. Words okay. To live authentically and maybe even that at some point that it would be appreciated if not celebrated.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] And why not? Just the simplistic conclusion that the church got this wrong, is getting this wrong. Lives are at stake. Ergo, the church is false. What's kept you from just going that

Laurie Lee Hall [01:04:51] simplistic binary, because I'm not a binary person and things are not binary. So I can take both the advantages of binary, but I can also extend to others, including the church, the fact that life is not binary. I would say, yes, I have push the limits of some people's acceptance and tolerance of what a former leader should look like. But at the same time, I can look back at the church and say, I extend to you the hope that in time, flexibility and understanding and acceptance of the issues of a transgender member will be better understood, will change, and. And there will be a place, a safe place and a welcoming place, but if not, I will still be faithful.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] That's so powerful. So do you. Do you feel like. I think you've already answered this, but has your connection with God, the degree or the measure of spiritual inspiration, has it decreased or severed in this experience? And do you feel like the church is in error in how it deals with either transgender individuals or LGBT individuals? Do you feel like the excommunication was not what God wanted? And do you feel like the church needs to change to be in accordance with God's will, will need to change its LGBT policies or even just its tea policies?

Ongoing Spiritual Life After Excommunication

Laurie Lee Hall [01:06:56] Lots of questions in that conversation. With regard to my personal spiritual experiences, they continue in full force, just as they always have. People knowing that losing the privileges of church membership may also mean losing certain gifts have asked me very specifically if I have felt the departure of the Holy Ghost, and they haven't. On the contrary, I felt that continual presence, that companionship. That doesn't surprise me because I feel that relationship was cultivated with good intentions and put to good purpose, and those all still exist. I think I've already explained my hope for eventual change and softening of attitudes towards those who are different, regardless of the category or label, that ultimately as not just the church, but socially and culturally within the church, that there would be a greater level of acceptance of those who are different. I hear similar messages from President Neukdorf and Elder Holland that it's appropriate to include, to be inclusive. In many ways, I think current damaging actions are the result of individual interpretations and biases that don't represent the attitude of the church and how they and how individual members get treated. There's a lot of work to do on that subject. As I mentioned earlier, even proactive teaching on the part of our local membership could have made my situation and our collective situation a much more positive circumstance and didn't have to be what occurred. That could occur on a more general level as well and would be A blessing to many, many souls. Lives would be saved and lives would be enriched if that just that warming of attitude and inclusivity were taught more consistently top to bottom and bottom to top.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Are you comfortable saying that your excommunication was not God's will or was not what God wanted?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:09:57] I don't.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] Or a mistake?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:09:59] Yeah, I don't want to speak for God. He may know exactly what he's doing with all of this. I suspect he does, but I don't know. I mean, I can't say that God revealed to me that that was the dumbest thing they'd ever done. No, I don't have that. That information. But I do have confidence and trust that he can take even upsetting, disturbing, tragic, bad situations and turn them for good. And I hope that that's what happens in this case, that somehow this can all get turned for good and that some good comes out of it all. So I know that he's aware of my circumstance and of the circumstance of those who put me in this position. I sense his tenderness and those feelings of tenderness towards me. I don't sense any sort of abandonment at all. On the contrary, there has been a significant outpouring of love that I have felt from deity of late. And I think it's just fascinating to watch how all of this gets turned for good.

Reflections on the Temples She Helped Build

John Dehlin [01:11:31] As far as I have to note how difficult it might be to have helped build 40 temples and yet to not be allowed in them. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:11:48] I do. Honestly. There was a season that it was hard for me to look upon the temples, knowing I couldn't attend that circumstances, even my own circumstances, that there wasn't an appropriate place for me to show up with a recommend that still said mail on it, presenting as I do and having an experience in the temple that would be comfortable to me and not significantly triggering. That was a sad end. To many decades of participating in temple work. But in talking with a dear friend, after not being able to look at a temple for a while without feeling hurt, a dear friend helped me to realize that I could look at the exteriors of those temples. And know with confidence the appreciation that the father has

John Dehlin [01:13:22] for the part I

Laurie Lee Hall [01:13:22] played to help get them there. And that truly healed my heart on the subject. Because I had a hole in my heart for a while on that subject.

John Dehlin [01:13:48] I can imagine that you feel a little bit better now.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:13:52] The healing occurred with the thought the healing occurred.

John Dehlin [01:13:58] Love it.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:14:00] Can you.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Can you put together. And this is a question that came from many listeners and Viewers, can you put together a set of policies or doctrines or theology that the Church could realistically adopt to kind of holistically address this situation for future members? And there's all sorts of complexities. If a kid is given the priesthood but then goes, you know, chooses transition, a gender expression transition afterwards, what do you do with the priesthood? Does it lay dormant now? Does the kid keep it and vice versa for a trans male, do they receive the priesthood? Do you just think, whatever someone. And what if in the, I'm sure, extremely rare case where someone transitions to one gender and maybe transitions back? Like, I'm just trying to figure out what's a policy? And then there's marriage and temple marriage and the Church's views on that. Can we have a trans female marrying a male in the temple? And what does it do with the Church's interpretation of the proclamation of the family? Is the Church just in a bind or do you see a constructive path forward that's realistic but also hopeful?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:15:44] So I think, first of all, I'm in no position to speak for the Church, so these are my own opinions, Nor am I speaking at all critically of where the Church is presently today. But I observe that realistic initial steps are already taking place in some units. As I've explained, individuals in certain circumstances are welcome to attend not just Sagittarius meeting and Sunday school, but also a third hour class that is consistent with their gender presentation. That's a wonderful initial step of welcoming that requires no change in doctrine whatsoever, no change in policy whatsoever.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] And as you say, it's happening in

Laurie Lee Hall [01:16:37] many places and it is happening in many places. And it's one of those things that it's such a small thing that's such a huge deal to the individual. It really makes a big difference in feeling, belonging and a sense of welcome and fellowship and affirmation. That's such an easy step to take. There are certain things that could go along with that, such as in my case, if I were assigned to visit teach, I would do that in a harp. In fact, I kind of do it now without an assignment because it's in my heart to serve that way, to take care of the welfare of others and be aware of their needs. I was in the home of a sister last night who was having some health problems and their first call was to me.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] How'd that feel?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:17:37] It was great. I came as her sister and she knows my circumstances quite well. And I helped. We got the priesthood to come and they gave a blessing. And I think they were slightly astonished that I was the first person who was called. But there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with an individual serving in a way that's consistent with their authentic self. That can occur without changes to policy, doctrine with regard to priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:18:15] So young women's leader, in theory, right,

Laurie Lee Hall [01:18:19] Maybe that would be a further step beyond the realistic that we're talking to. But there is a precedent in place for how the priesthood is handled, at least from the previously ordained to the dormant. My experience in joining the church and serving at a young age in upstate New York, I knew many, not just a few, but many members of Warden stake in upstate New York who had joined the church even in the 1970s, received priesthood and priesthood ordinances, even had been to the temple. And as they were dutifully pulling together their four generation charts, like we were all taught to do back then, they discovered some African ancestry prior to the change of policy on the priesthood. In that circumstance, local leaders were instructed to ask the male individuals who had been ordained, who had that ancestry, to allow the priesthood to be dormant, to not utilize their priesthood. And I think the general consensus was that it didn't invalidate the ordinances that they'd received or the ones that they had performed, but they were asked to, consistent with then church policy, were asked to not exercise the priesthood. That was in essence, the same explanation that I gave to our stake president when I crossed that road and said, I'm now presenting authentically as a female member of the church and in concert with the way that was handled back then. Whether you agree or don't agree that the ban, if you will, on the priesthood was appropriate, I'm talking only now about how it was operationally handled. And I'm not speaking today about whether I believe or disbelieve whether female members of the church should receive the priesthood. I'm not speaking to that at all. But in terms of operationally, how did it need to be handled in my case? Well, there is at least a precedent on how that was handled previously. And I said, president, I think the right thing to do would be to ask me to not exercise the priesthood at this point, consistent with current church policy. And he ultimately concurred that that would be the right thing to do. I feel strongly that for the season that I was actively using the priesthood and abiding to the best of my ability to the oath and covenant of the priesthood and magnifying my callings, I believe that was pleasing to God. I also sense strongly that that is no longer required of me, not because I was excommunicated, but because it's no longer required of me. That again, my own personal sense. And it brought me peace to know that there was appreciation for what I did and a recognition that at this present time it's not required of me to. To fulfill that covenant.

John Dehlin [01:21:45] So you're not necessarily missing the priesthood? You know, exercising the priesthood

Laurie Lee Hall [01:21:51] in that home last night when that blessing was needed, I absolutely knew what to do and I knew that I could have offered it, but I also knew that it wasn't required of me to do it, that others were coming who were going to do it.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] Do you kind of feel like you still have the priesthood?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:22:10] No. No. I know I was ordained. I know that I blessed a lot of lives with it, but it's. It was mine. It wasn't mine. It was always his. But the authority to utilize it, given through oath and covenant, I was able to enjoy for a season when it was appropriate. And now it's not required of me.

Theology, Gender, and the Divine

John Dehlin [01:22:42] Do you have a sense for deity and gender? You have gods, male, female, both a married couple, a polygamous couple. Like do you have any.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:22:55] I guess my strong or genderless, I should say my strong personal opinion is that I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents, suggesting that there's a heavenly mother as well as a heavenly father. But my witness is I'm a beloved daughter of heavenly parents.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] You still pray to heavenly Father?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:23:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] Okay. And do you have opinions about women in the priesthood?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:23:25] I really haven't formed one. Been so busy forming these many other opinions, I haven't formed an opinion.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] And as it relates to the unrealistic future, the less realistic future, do you see a day when just priesthood goes with how people choose to identify and present and marriage happens with maybe even if it's always between a man and a woman where it just becomes the church follows the lead of the person and how they choose to present.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:24:11] Yeah. That somehow self identification is sufficient.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] Yeah. Do you see that as maybe being the ideal, even if unrealistic?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:24:22] I guess as the ultimate ideal and the highest of likelihoods of not realistic? It's really what we ask of everything else in society. We really ask every other entity in society to accept self identification. More and more so that's the case. And to honor that in every aspect of life. We're moving in that direction socially and legally, that self identification can ultimately permit you to enter the restroom where you're most comfortable, safe and all other aspects of life. So is it unreasonable to hope for that within the church? It is certainly Ideal. But there are many, as you pointed out, many, many complications along the way. I would like to believe that readmittance would allow me to be readmittent admitted according to my current legal name and my current, well recognized gender marker. I would love to have the opportunity to exist, fellowship, serve, live in the church as the woman that I am.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] Oh, I just had a question. Are you aware of a transgender individual ever being baptized into the church after their. After their transition?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:26:12] I don't personally know such an individual, but I know that the 2010 version of the church handbook does allow for that to occur after certain interviews have taken place.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] So in theory, you could be baptized. You could be rebaptized as Laurie?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:26:32] Sure, why not?

John Dehlin [01:26:33] If you were given that opportunity, would you consider it?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:26:36] Oh, yes. Would you do it based on that? Yes. And anything else that would be part and parcel of that package.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Are you comfortable talking about your appeal? Do you want to? I mean, the fact that it may or may not exist?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:26:52] Not at this time.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] Okay, no problem. So, all right, so that's cool. Maybe there's a way for you back into the church as Laurie. Maybe that would be nice. To be baptized as Laurie.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:27:06] I would like that.

John Dehlin [01:27:07] And take out your endowments as Laurie, or sit with the women, or have

Laurie Lee Hall [01:27:12] whatever adjustments the temple ordinance is required to. Whatever that meant.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] And to have a new temple name.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:27:20] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] Beautiful. I like that idea. I'm going to hope for that.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:27:27] I hope for it as well. I hope for it as well.

Questions About Church Truth Claims and Family Roles

John Dehlin [01:27:31] Okay, so really, this will be like a 30 second question. There's a lot of information on the Internet now about the church's truth claims, whether it's about polygamy or polyandry or the Book of Abraham or Book of Mormon historicity. Have you studied any of that stuff? And if so, has it impacted your faith at all? Or do you not even have an idea what I'm talking about?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:28:02] I know exactly what you're talking about, and I've studied each one of them fully. I'm not shy about looking at the breadth of available information. Has it shaken my faith at all in the very core beliefs that I've expressed? Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:28:21] Has it changed some of the maybe less core beliefs?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:28:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] Modified them?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:28:27] Yes. There's. There's a high level of suspicion mixed with hope for reconciliation and honesty and integrity with regard to many of those things. Again, I look at the church not from the binary perspective, but from the perspective that eventually these things may be more effectively communicated and more appropriately taught. I think there's Baby steps being taken in that direction. I'm certainly not going to. Get all angry over something that's a work in progress, even though that work in progress is moving at its current pace.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] So it sounds like you're talking specifically about kind of candor around the Church's history with regard to things like, you know, the Book of Abraham or Book of Mormon being historical versus metaphorical or symbolic. Have you?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:29:31] Whatever they may be. I guess the simple way to explain it is that the vehicle that brought the knowledge and blessings into my life is an ever changing vehicle. And if there were flaws in its original manufacture, if there were flaws in how it was maintained through the years, it was still the vehicle that brought me the good that I experienced. And I know that there are souls who are working on that vehicle to hopefully make it a better vehicle somewhere down the road, maybe even a more appropriate vehicle, or perhaps even someday a more perfect vehicle. But the vehicle accomplished what it did for me in my life. And regardless of the flaws of manufacture or how that was maintained through the years, I still reap the benefits of the ride. And I have hope for a better vehicle, a more refined one, down the road.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] Very architecture based metaphor. Love it. It's hard to lose Many are asking how your wife and children and grandchildren are doing. I don't want this to come off, you know, disrespectful, asking, too much detail. But you know, when someone is in your position, do they want to be called a wife? Do they want to be called a grandmother? Do they want to be called a mother? What's it like for a child or a spouse or a grandchild to have to consider or contemplate a different label or title or relationship? Is there any degree to which you even want to talk about how that sort of issue has manifested in your relationship with your spouse, with your children, with your grandchildren?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:31:41] It's a topic that I'm fond of talking about. Myself and several of my friends who have traveled this road have had to find ways to help that all work within their family circumstances. And I'm passionate about families traveling together in this journey, even though it's. It looks different from maybe the ideal or what has been raised as the ideal. Our grandchildren, for example, range in age from 8 to 0. And there's a bunch of them. And depending on their age and how their parents have helped them to deal with my transition, I went from being grandpa to poppy, and poppy was my choice because it seemed to kind of work as a term of endearment for a grandparent. But it has kind of a little bit of a feminine ring to it without necessarily being overtly feminine. I'm not interested, never interested in taking the title of mother or grandmother from my dear wife. She totally earned those titles, and those are hers. Mother's Day is celebrated. It's all about her. That other day in June is celebrated, and that's about me. But. Most of our grandkids whose parents have. Have been loving and supportive towards me have. Have already kind of gone through the process with me. And the ones that are old enough to recognize that there was a transition that took place in presentation have seemed very well adjusted and comfortable with that. I won't scold them if they happen to call me Grandpa. That's a very special term as well. But the younger ones, who never knew me as anything, but they all call me Poppy now. So I think it's one of those things that occurs over time. We. I guess that's kind of where we're at.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] What about children?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:34:06] Most of our children are very loving and accepting. I should mention you mentioned before that I had four children. We do have four biological children, but we still have a child at home who was adopted into our family from Ukraine, actually Crimea, which is now a part of Russia, at least on some maps. And she still lives with us. She's 16 and special needs. And so that's been a wonderful experience as well. Kind of taking her through this journey and helping her fairly childlike, simple mind to make the adjustments with so much love that she has for everyone. She has for me, very much so.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] Is it tough for a kid to call what they used to think as father to call them? I guess you wouldn't want them to call you.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:35:00] No, my.

John Dehlin [01:35:01] That's for your wife.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:35:02] Yeah. My grown kids. My grown kids. It's always. I'm always dad or Daddy. Okay. Because I promised them when I came out to them that that relationship wouldn't change, even though my presentation was changing. Got it.

John Dehlin [01:35:16] And you're okay with that?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:35:18] And I'm okay with that. Others find other ways to negotiate around that, but I've never felt the need to be anything but their dad or their daddy.

John Dehlin [01:35:31] Got it. And then maybe the last question, church, I mean, belief related, that just. Just hit me. One of the main reasons you joined the church was because of your belief in eternal family.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:35:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:35:51] And you're sealed in the temple.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:35:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] To your wife.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:35:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] What do you have thoughts or beliefs or hopes or intuitions or inspirations around your eternal marriage and your eternal family?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:36:07] So I don't know the answers of how those things are going to be resolved. I heard on two occasions, and one of them, publicly, President Eyring, described a situation in their own family where ultimately they appealed to his uncle, President Spencer W. Kimball, on a matter relating to the nature of their eternal family, and he shared this. President Eyring shared this in the rededication ceremony of the Ogden Temple a few years back, publicly. And President Kimball, who was the president of the church at the time, advised Brother Eyring and his brethren at the time who were asking the question about the eternal nature construct, if you will, of their family, that they needed to focus on the correct concern and ultimately that they needed to trust that Father would sort all the things out that need to be sorted out and that it would be his confirmation. It would be more beautiful than we can imagine at this time. I gravitate to that answer because that's as good as I've got right now that I don't know how it's going to sort out. We don't know. It's not been shown us how it's going to sort out. But I have complete confidence that the Father in heaven who continues to love me and continues to love my family already has in mind how it's going to sort out, and it will be more beautiful than we can imagine.

John Dehlin [01:37:56] Love it. Love it. All right, well, the final question that everybody's asking is, what can, you know, what can parents of transgender children do to support them? What can siblings or, you know, children or community members of transgender individuals do? Church members? What, you know, how can we all do better at loving and embracing and celebrating and supporting our transgender brothers and sisters?

Advice for Families of Transgender Loved Ones

Laurie Lee Hall [01:38:41] Yeah, well, that's a marvelous question to capstone our discussion. As I've described, I think it's important for family members to recognize that gender identity is not a choice. It's not something we wake up one day and we say, gee, I think I'll try this on, because this is kind of trendy and cool, or, you know, I want to experience what life's like on that side of the fence. Those circumstances may occur, but that's not a transgender individual. A transgender individual, an individual who has an identity that is in conflict, is contrary to what their physical body has been identified as in terms of biological sex. That is not a choice to feel that way. More often than not, it is something that has been felt for an extraordinary amount of time, reaching back to the individual's earliest years. Some aren't cognizant of it to the same extent that I or others have been. But it's something that doesn't change over time. It can't be changed by any type of faith or therapy or abuse or any sort of mistreatment or best treatment or. And it's not any family members fault that an individual feels that way. It's no one's fault and it's not wrong. Never make the transgender individual feel that they are wrong for feeling who they are. And often that will mean that those of us who are family members or friends of a transgender individual will need to take time to process. But don't project the difficulty that you're working through as a responsibility or the fault, if you will, of the transgender person. There's already more than enough feelings of awkwardness, guilt, shame, whatever they may be, to have family members not heap additional responsibility for how they're also feeling because of this. So let's avoid that. Let's find ways to be affirming to the individual who themselves may not know at their point in their journey where this is going to take them. There shouldn't be any foregone conclusion about what steps will be taken or when those might be taken. But as the individual expresses when those steps should be taken, it's a lot easier for that individual to go through that process if there is supporting family or friends, acknowledging the reality of their situation and the need to take a step. No one should have to take this journey alone. Or made to feel that they need to be alone or that they somehow need to bury all of this for the convenience or the comfort of others. Never make an individual feel that way. There should be safe and loving and to the extent possible, accepting places for every individual to be. And if that can't occur in a certain family circumstance, find one where it can occur for the safety of the individual.

John Dehlin [01:42:55] Where can they go?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:42:57] Well, one would hope that there would be affirming or comfortable family members that they could go to. As always, it's good to be with some member of some family. But if not, there are resources available to support those who aren't accepted at home. And sometimes, and I know people who have had to replace their biological family with their support system family, As the brethren have taught and is so painfully obvious, it's never appropriate to turn out a young person or shun them or push them out of your family because of their gender identity. That's the sin in my estimation. Recognize that transgender individuals are at least 10 times at risk for suicide, least attempted suicide, not because being gender variant is a disorder or a disability. But because of the difficulty that still exists to be accepted in home, family and society and in institutions like church, that statistic needs to disappear. And 10 times more transgender individuals need to feel welcomed enough that taking their own life isn't a viable option. There's no need to even cross that bridge. Together we can work diligently to change that.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] And professional resources. Are there well known websites or.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:45:17] Absolutely. There are many good websites. There's lots of Facebook support groups. There are hotlines for those who are feeling and it's worth mentioning at the end of their rope. I know the Trevor Project is a great one for reaching. If an individual feels that they're at the end of their rope and there's 24 hour support on those phones to help people. There are organizations here in the state that. But it's so undersized for the need. The real solution, as in so many things in society are in the home. The homes have to become safe places for transgender persons to be. That's the solution. And expanded beyond that. The church, the workplace. I mean, there's so many places. Schools. Absolutely. Schools that must become safe places.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Quick thoughts on bathrooms.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:46:33] I think we should all make use of them when we can, including after this interview. There's no evidence anywhere that anyone's aware of, of the supposed sexual predator crimes that take place, being ever perpetrated by, for example, a male to female individual who's transitioned or transitioning in a ladies restroom that those, those cases don't exist. There's no threat. The threat, on the other hand, is to myself, for example, if I'm required to use the men's room, appearing as I do now.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] Threats to you.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:47:34] Yes. And as soon as we get to the point where we recognize that that's the case, that self identification doesn't create harm or exposure to anyone else, but that there's a population who have self identified who are at risk every time they try to use a public facility, then the right laws, protections, if you will, will be put in place.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] Beautiful. All right, Lori Lee Hall. Well, this has been such a powerful and epic and thoughtful and wise five hours. We still have 90 people who have stayed with us on Facebook Live. A lot of people jumped in and out. We're really grateful for everyone who made comments and questions. Are there any final thoughts you want to share? I don't know if you know this, but in Mormon story tradition, it's often customary for the person that I interview to sort of share a final testimony. Religious or not religious. But you've shared a lot of that already. But are there closing words you would want to share with our listening audience?

Laurie Lee's Closing Reflections and Farewell

Laurie Lee Hall [01:49:05] For those who have endured, endured this

John Dehlin [01:49:08] long, this delight,

Laurie Lee Hall [01:49:11] simply how appreciative I am for the forum to be able to speak to these issues and to my story openly, with candor, in depth, to the extent that we have. It takes obviously a great deal of time and energy to cover the breadth of this journey and to do so in a way that is thoughtful and respectful and appropriate. I do so appreciate the opportunity in the forum. At the end of it all, where am I today? I'm standing in my truth and I'm walking in my faith and will continue to do so. And I'm a resource to those who wish to find their truth and stand in it and to hold on to and maintain their faith.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] So maybe we can share. Do you want to share your contact information with people? Not now. You can now if you want.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:50:11] No, absolutely. I think sharing my contact information, John, that you have as these are posted would be entirely appropriate.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] Okay, I'll do that. And what about the future for you? What are your plans?

Laurie Lee Hall [01:50:29] Continue to find ways to keep myself employed, self employed at this point as a business consultant, business development consultant, as a professional coach. And I've also begun and have started working with the Family and Gender Variance Project that we founded earlier this year, again focusing on that principle of bringing gender variant persons and their families members together and in an environment where they can learn skills to speak to each other about these issues from both sides of the equation. Understanding with empathy and compassion and patience the needs and feelings of both the gender variant individual and the family member who as we've talked about, is often going through a great deal of grieving, processing at the same time creating that kind of dialogue and helping families stay united and stay supportive and loving towards each other. And so that project could take up all my time if I was independently wealthy, but I hope it becomes a resource to the community that can help in those areas which I've spoken to. So lots of plans. I still would love to be able to work in the architectural and construction industry as well if they can find place for a lady architect. I still have skills and much to offer and I want to make a contribution, advocacy, all of those things. I just hope for the chance to continue to help.

John Dehlin [01:52:12] Well, Laura Lee Hall, a sincere thank you for sharing, sharing your story with us today on Mormon Stories. Thank you.

Laurie Lee Hall [01:52:22] Thank you, John. My honor, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] All right, well thanks everyone for tuning in to this wonderful conversation. Thanks to everyone who joined us online and stuck with us through the whole thing. It's been wonderful to have your comments and feedback. Thank you to everyone who is listening asynchronously. We're glad you joined us. We want to make sure everyone understands that all this work is possible through donations to the Open Stories Foundation, a 501c3 nonprofit. We're transparent in our finances and the money that goes to the Open Stories foundation goes to support our mission, which includes two full time staff members and a part time staff member and lots of activities and expenses and events to support people in all sorts of transitions including faith transitions, family transitions, marriage transitions and all other types. So we want to thank everyone who donates to the Elba Stories Foundation. You make this possible. We also want to encourage anyone who's really found value or meaning in what we do to please consider donating. You can go to mormorestories.org, click on the donate button and and just know your donations in the US are tax deductible and they will be used 100% towards the mission of this foundation. We have several events coming up. We're having a mixed faith retreat with me and Julie de Azevedo Hanks in August in Salt Lake City. We're coming to Seattle in September, we're coming to Sydney, Australia in October, the Bay Area, San Francisco Oakland area in November. And we're planning our events for 2018. We have the Cruise Caribbean Cruise scheduled for fall of 2018, but we still have to pick cities to visit for 2018. So if you want us to bring a Mormon Transitions or Mormon Stories Retreat to your area, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we'll consider your area because we love these events. They save marriages, they alleviate depression and anxiety in many cases, they help people in their transition, they strengthen families, bring people together, give people hope and healing. And that's what these events are about. So come to our events and if you want us to bring one to your area, just let us know. Again, thanks to Cody Layton and Amy Grubbs who are the staff members I work with. They make all this possible. And to our Board of Directors at the Open Stories Foundation, Lee Stowell, Roger McComber, Craig Woodfield and Steve Holbrook. You guys and gal make this all possible. Love you guys. Thanks again for joining us on Marmor Stories. Please tune in again soon for another episode. This has been wonderful. Take care everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.