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Join us for another fascinating conversation with LDS discussions on the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon.
LDS Discussions Essay on The Lost 116 Pages
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Really love the long format. Thank you for all you do!
I may be reading too much into the Harris scenario, but it seems that a vein of underlying sexism exists in the story, similar to Adam and Eve being tempted in the garden. No one takes responsibility for their actions and instead points the blame finger at the person with the least prestige in the translation scenario, and then even relegates Lucy as the victimizer. Blaming Lucy serves as a deflection from the deeper issues. As was pointed out in the podcast, if God knows past, present, and future, and Smith received true revelation, God could have sent yet another angel or guardian spirit, or salamander with a flaming sword pointing to the peep stone in the hat, and saying “DON’T DO IT,” etc.–whatever supernatural entity was available in the moment–to stop the action in its tracks. Instead the manuscript disappears and who gets the blame as the scapegoat–a daughter of Eve, similar to the Garden of Eden scenario. “Eve tempted me and I did eat. Lucy tempted me and I did not dare ask God if I should give her the pages.” Blaming Lucy for the manuscript debacle places the blame on the wrong person and subsequently demonizes a strong-willed, thinking female as an enemy of the church, and thus plays into the the systemic objectification of LDS women. It would be really interesting to know Lucy’s side of the story and how things may differ from the church’s official tale of Smith being the victim.
If I were in need of therapy and wanted someone who could gently and superbly interpret back to me what I was struggling to say, I would go to John Dehlin. His incisive, well-spaced, gentle insights certainly contribute superbly to these podcasts. As for a sense of timing and being able to close out a discussion when the poignancy is starting to fade after innumerable repetition, we’ll, that’s not John’s strong card. (Might be a holdover from those days of 3-hour church).
So even though these ‘shorter’ forms without co/hosts are a useful change of pace, they are still impossible to share. I do regret that. Of course, the co-hosting is great, also,
and maybe the protracted discussions do serve as group therapy for many. But I’m a fan and supporter and would happily help by sitting behind a glass window to signal, “OK, wrap it, now, guys, you’ve nailed it!” 👍
This makes so much sense. The LDS church’s narrative does not.
Fantastic podcast. John—I love your clarifications and I think it’s very valuable that you slow it down to identify key points when your guest goes a little fast.
For me is was enough to realize that the lost pages, being holographic could not have been changed without the changes being easily discoverable. So the story that evil men were intending this deception just never held any water for me. But this podcast fleshes out the objections in ways that I had never considered. Good job John and guest presenter. I think, for what it may be worth, that a decision on short or long should be based on the complexity of the issue. This 116 page thing is relatively simple and therefore the short format worked well in my view. But there are issues that touch more people in broader ways that benefit from more diversity in the forum commenters.
I don’t understand point #3 at 42:04, that Lucy Harris would have done it (produce altered text) anyway. I think you mean even if she never got her hands on the 116 pages, right? Are you saying at some point in the “translation” (writing) process, she would have just produced some text that differed from what Joseph was producing and claimed it came from… where? Or after the whole book was complete? What would she say about it, and about how she got it? And was she a good enough forger to make something like this believable?
The other points make a lot of sense, but I can’t figure how this one actually would work in a believable way and not just make Lucy look desperate or vindictive.
The conversation about Joseph Smith being a seer but not being able to find the missing pages, makes me think of a meme that I saw of a front of a psychic’s shop that said on its marquee, “closed due to unforeseen circumstances.” Lol!
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