Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:04] There is a golden picture frame hanging

Guest [00:00:09] upon empty wall Haunting the hollow of

John Dehlin [00:00:15] my brain Painting pictures while we run underneath the dark. All right, hello everyone. Let's see. The date is January 10, 2017. My name is John Dehlin and I am joined by Margi. And this is episode two of Mormon Transitions Live. This is a podcast, a brand new podcast produced by the Open Stories foundation. And the purpose is to support questioning Mormons, transitioning Mormons, liberal active Mormons and post Mormons in their transition away from orthodoxy and towards whatever brings them joy and happiness, whether it's in the church or out of the church. Again, this is our second episode. We're really thrilled with the response from the first episode. Tens of thousands of people tuned in, apparently according to Facebook, and we're just thrilled and delighted that so many people are interested. Last week we kind of gave an introduction and this week we're going to be focusing on the topic of how to communicate with believing orthodox family and friends. So that's going to be the topic for today. We do have a little bit, a few announcements. The first announcement is that we're going to be changing the showtime based on your feedback. So a lot of you let us know that to be able to call in or participate. 10 O' Clock Mountain time was a little bit early or hard. A lot of you said lunch hour would be great. And so what we're going to do is we're going to change our showtime to 12 noon mountain time again on Tuesdays in the year 2017. That could always change again, but just know that our plan is to go to noon starting next week. So that's exciting. We want to announce again for those of you who are near Anaheim, California or feel like you're up for a trip To California, on January 26th and 27th, we will be hosting a Mormon Transitions workshop that will begin on Thursday night with introductions and maybe a little bit karaoke, maybe a lot of karaoke. It's always a really good time. And then after that we will be on Friday the 27th, we'll have a full day workshop supporting people in their transition. These events are restorative, they're healing, they're fun, they're deep, they're meaningful, they're touching. They're always rated 4.9 or higher out of five and people love them and people come back to them after they've already attended. So please go to mormontransitions.org events. You'll see the Anaheim option. You can register for it there and we'd love to have you. So please check that out. As far as any other announcements go, the main way that we will be accepting participation, live participation during today's call in will be through text messages on the live video feed. So if you're tuning through my wall or some other place, go to Mormon Transitions page. Click on the video there especially. And whether you have a mobile device or not, you should be able to track the comments people are making and make your own comments. So that's one way you can participate live. We have Amy Grubbs on the call who's monitoring and Shandy, I think, is helping out, monitoring as well. So they'll be monitoring those messages. We'll get whatever participation we can from you. But in addition to people texting, we want in the future to be able to incorporate people's emails. We have a few today that we'll be incorporating into our show. So if you look ahead to the topics coming up, if you want to discuss topics in the past, please send us an email@mormontransitionsmail.com we'd love to incorporate it into our show or into future shows. We would love people to leave voicemails.

Guest [00:04:34] So.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] So if you go to mormontransitions.org at the right hand of the website, you'll see a little rectangular box that says send voicemail. You can click on that box. You can leave us a voicemail digitally. You don't have to identify yourself if you don't want to. You can just use your first name. We would love to get to the point where we can play your voicemails live on the show. So please consider doing that. But also feel free to leave comments on our blog@mormontransitions.org so those are some of the announcements. Amy, let me just jump to you really quick. If you're there, do you have any quick announcements that you want to add?

Amy Grubbs [00:05:14] Really quick. The screen on Facebook is black for all the people. They can hear you, but they can't see you. So we need to fix that.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Figure out how to share the screen. Yeah. Okay, let me see if I can play with this really quick.

Amy Grubbs [00:05:32] Okay. And then while you're working with that, one of the things that I thought of is we are looking for somebody to help us with editing. If there's anybody out there who can help us with editing of these podcasts that we do weekly, please contact us@mormontransitions.org and we would love to talk to you.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Beautiful.

Amy Grubbs [00:05:57] It's working now.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Good. So we got the video up and working. So we're glad. Thanks for that tip, whoever sent that in. Do you have a shout out for the person's name or was it pretty much everybody?

Shandi Hill [00:06:08] It was Jeff and Shandy and a few.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Okay, so note to self. Let's make sure the video's streaming before we start the program. Good. All right, that's great. Thanks for those notes. And yes, if any of you are good at video and audio editing, we would love some help and we may even try and scrounge up some money to be able to pay. I can't promise that, but we're going to try and get a budget for that. Ok, so we are ready to launch into the main sort of substance of today's talk. As you can see, I'm joined by my lovely, beautiful wife, Margi. Margi, thank you for being so patient as we kicked off the announcements. How are you doing today?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:56] Good, thanks. You?

John Dehlin [00:06:57] Yeah. Are you still wanting to do this? Are you still glad or are you having second thoughts?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:02] I'm in, babe.

Guest 2 [00:07:02] I'm in.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] You're in?

Guest 2 [00:07:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] All right. Well, good. Well, it's good. It's good to have you with us. We're really excited and today the topic is probably the biggest topic we ever get. So we're starting with the big stuff. We're starting with the big guns. Honestly, we probably have days worth of content here, but we've put together a list of ideas and suggestions and thoughts and tips for how to communicate with orthodox believing members. Those of us who are questioning or transitioning or transitioned, it may be our spouse, it may be our parents, it may, it may be our children, it may be siblings, it may be loved ones, it may be friends, it may be ward members. But without a doubt, going through the transition from an orthodox believing Mormon to something other than that is going to affect relationships. And when you know, we all know the orthodox mindset because most of us, or many of us had it, which was it's either all true or all false. And and you're either fully on board or you need to get out of the way and you're either righteous and moving in the path towards the celestial kingdom or you're wicked and falling away. Now that's not a fair characterization of what people feel and experience. It's often more nuanced than that. But I think it's sometimes not totally unfair either. So that's going to be what we talk about today. And I'm just going to go ahead and quickly introduce our panel because our panel will be joining us now this panel won't join us at the very beginning. What we'll do is we'll discuss some ideas and topics. Then we'll, then we'll bring it open to the panel, then we'll go back and discuss some more things. And what we hope to end with is a robust discussion. But let me go ahead and introduce our panel. First I'll introduce the one, the only, Amy Grubbs. And Amy is the Director of Operations for the Open Stories Foundation. Amy, welcome. Is there anything you want to share with us to begin?

Introducing the Guests and Panel

Amy Grubbs [00:09:19] Do you want me to do a quick introduction?

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Yeah, please.

Amy Grubbs [00:09:21] Okay. So like John said, I'm the new director of operations. Been doing it for a little over a month. Super excited about that. I'm originally from Colorado, now live in South Jordan, married to Jeff. We've been married for almost 24 years and have a 16 year old daughter.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] All right, we're excited to have you. Thanks for joining us, Amy.

Amy Grubbs [00:09:43] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] All right, your right hand, your right hand woman. Shandy, why don't you introduce yourself again and tell us about you and tell us a bit about Thoughtful Transitions.

Guest 2 [00:09:54] Hi. Thanks. Yeah. So I'm Shandy Hill. I'm originally from Seattle. Moved here to Lehigh a year ago. My transition started around the city time. I'm a moderator over at Thoughtful Transitions. We're a super safe support group for everybody that's transitioning out of the church. So if you are interested in joining, go ahead and go to Thoughtful Transitions support group on Facebook and we'll chat.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Beautiful. Great. Great job. Thanks. Shandy, thanks for joining us. Shout out to Thoughtful Transitions. And for those of us, we want to make sure everyone knows that this podcast is not just for people leaving the church. It's also for people who are staying in the church, but just more as a liberal or unorthodox or progressive member or even as a non believing member that just feels like they need to stay or have to stay or want to stay. And there is a Facebook group to support people like that. It's called the Thoughtful Faith Facebook group. There's accompanying podcast, Mormon Matters and the Thoughtful Faith, which are both supported by the Open Stories Foundation. Check those out. But also check out Thoughtful Transitions if you're pretty much on your way or out of the church. So thanks Shandy. I'm a little starstruck because we have progressive Mormon royalty with us today. We have the one, the only, Tanner Gilliland joining us. Tanner, why don't you tell us a bit about yourself.

Shandi Hill [00:11:24] I'm Tanner. I work with Zelf on The shelf.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] What's the URL for that?

Shandi Hill [00:11:31] Zelfontheshelf.com and where did that name come from?

John Dehlin [00:11:35] No, I'm just kidding.

Shandi Hill [00:11:35] It came from John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] Tell us a bit about yourself, Tanner. And yourselfies, who are your fellow Zelfies?

Shandi Hill [00:11:43] Okay, so I went to school at byu, Idaho. Graduated with a degree in communications. So my degree is in talking with TBMs. And after I went through a faith crisis in the tail end of my university experience, along with my best friend Samantha, who was a British convert. And after graduation, we both worked at Deseret book did internships there and then ended up in Logan, where we met John. And there we left the church. She was married to Connor, who is another were the three people on self on the shelf. So we have fun doing it and good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] So is it my fault you left the church, Tanner?

Shandi Hill [00:12:26] It's totally your fault, John. Totally your fault. I don't know if I ever sent you that thing, but I have this, like, thing in my journal where I was like, I've been listening to John Dehlin, and I just don't want to end up like John Dehlin. Now here I am, John Delinquen.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] With facial hair.

Shandi Hill [00:12:43] With facial hair.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] Mustache. You're even worse.

Shandi Hill [00:12:46] I was counseled to get rid of the goatee, so I'm just trying out the creeper stache for a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] All right, well, thanks for joining us, Tanner.

Shandi Hill [00:12:54] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] All right. And I'm super excited to have in our second episode, an actual married couple joining us, and it's Bryn and Jared Gantt. And I'm just gonna. Bryn, why don't you kick it off and introduce yourself? And then. And Jared, you can chime in.

Guest [00:13:13] So I'm Bryn. I grew up in Utah. Orem, Utah. Now we live in Colorado, which was, I think, the beginning of the end. We thought, let's get out of Utah. So here we are. I work as a dda. I'm a SVU district attorney, so I do crimes against children, that kind of thing. And probably about a year and a half ago is when I was more concerted, kind of studying things out. And that was the downfall of my Mormonism. So that's me.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] We're thrilled to have you. Thanks for joining us, Bryn.

Speaker G [00:13:46] Yeah, yeah. As Bryn said, we moved up from Orem to Colorado. We met in high school and started dating in high school and been a couple since. And when we moved to Colorado, things somewhat changed a little bit, where I felt a little bit more open to question my doubts openly and at that point started to study things, things a little bit more in depth. And I went down the rabbit hole. So that would have been in 2013, about 2015 is when I decided to quit attending and kind of changing the way that I looked at Mormonism. And then we resigned in early. Earlier this early 2016 is when we decided to resign our membership and we

Guest [00:14:31] decided to do a public post. So we did a medium post on my blog and then we posted that on Facebook as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Brilliant. Well, we're so honored and delighted to have you both, Brennan and Jared, so thank you for joining us.

Speaker G [00:14:47] Pleasure.

When and How to Share Your Faith Transition

John Dehlin [00:14:48] All right, so let's dive in. We're both. Margi and I are both a little bit curious how this is going to end up because we have so much content and a limited amount of time. So we'll just kind of play by ear and. And we may break this up into two or three segments, depending on how things go. But what we've done is we sort of have a few sections of tips and tricks. We sort of have things to think about before you try and have the conversation. That's sort of the first section. Then we have a section on actually having the conversation and sort of the meta. Some meta thoughts about how to have a conversation and how to think about conversations. And then we have some final points about things to remember. After the conversation and throughout your journey as it relates to this whole transition. So we're going to go ahead and jump in and we're going to kind of take turns. Not every other time, but let's begin. So the first thing that came to my mind when you're thinking about communicating with believing family, friends, is to assess your risk. What made me think of this was my experience counseling LGBT people. And oftentimes they have to think about when to come out. And some people get really offended when you compare the LGBT experience of coming out with coming out as unorthodox or non believer. We don't mean to trivialize the LGBT experience, and we're not saying it's the same thing or even in the same category. I will say that I've had LGBT transitioning Mormons tell me that coming out as a non believer was actually more traumatic for them and their family than coming out as gay. That's not to justify. That's just to sort of add a thought. But the reason I'm bringing that up at all is because I think maybe the first thing you should ever do, and this will probably be obvious to those of you is to assess your risk in coming out, assess your financial situation, assess your employment, assess your own physical and mental health, assess your relationships and if you're in a marriage, the health and the stability of your marriage, the situation of your family and don't feel like you need to rush and come out if you feel like there are significant things that at risk. Margi do you have any reactions or thoughts to that or is that pretty face value?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:25] Yep, pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Okay, so that's the first thing to think about. So think about that. A second thing to consider is to really think about who the person is that you want to talk to and to think about their actual situation. Now this is tricky because it can sound a little bit condescending, but things that came to my mind about factors to consider are what is this person's age, what is their emotional maturity, what is their state of mental health, what is their state of physical health, what is their where are they on the belief spectrum? Are they more open minded, are they less, are they rigid and tough? And I all you know there's benefits for yourself in taking these factors into consideration, but there's also benefits in the person that you would be speaking to. So I'll give an extreme example. Imagine a 94 year old woman who is maybe not or man. Maybe they're not fully cognitive like they would have been earlier. Maybe they're really sick, maybe they're just waiting to die to join their loved one in heaven. It's an extreme example but maybe that's not the best time to be coming out to someone. Maybe focus on things that are more relevant and of course that's obvious, but I just wanted to say that's important. Even younger people, there's someone close in our family who had a parent die when they were very young and the church was just something that gave them hope and a reason to live and they probably struggled with depression their whole lives. And that's just a really important factor to consider because not only you don't want to be harming anyone, but you also don't want to be, I'll use the term casting your pearls before swine. That's not to say these people are swine, but it is to say your vulnerability, your intimacy is as valuable as pearls and you don't want necessarily to be sharing that with people who are going to abuse it or not appreciate it or not even be able to understand. What do you think about that? Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:44] I think it's completely important and I love it because it's a mixture of Self care, as you sort of process your own sort of state and what you want to give and whether it's safe and it's also taking care and. And caring for someone else as well.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] Yeah, and we'll talk about self care in a bit. I think it's also to ask yourself and to assess the extent to which these people want to actually know. You would think that everybody, if someone loves you and they've been intimate with you emotionally and. And they're close to you, that of course they would want to know everything about your intellectual and emotional and spiritual life. And that's not necessarily true. And the truth is, overwhelmingly, most people don't want to know. And even if you tell them, they probably don't want to talk about it. And so that's an important thing to consider is just whether they want to have that conversation. And there are some people I know who will go 20, 30, 40 years and never talk about anything serious or significant. They would much rather have healthy, safe conversations about the weather, about sports, about politics. That's sometimes safe. But the last thing they want to do is know your deepest, darkest doubts and concerns. And so I think that's an important thing to consider. I think it's also important to consider whether you trust the person, whether they're trustworthy, whether they will keep your confidences, whether they'll be kind or safe in what they talk about. And it's important to think about how you think they're gonna handle the information. Are they respectful? Are they antagonistic? Will they just debate with you? Will they shout you down? Will they speak down to you? So those are all important things to say. Now. That's a lot to sort of open with. What I'd like to do is now turn the time over to our panel and just get some reactions. And also invite Amy to let us know if there's any comments or questions on the live stream. So I'll just watch for people on the panel to unmute themselves. Tanner, why don't you go ahead?

Shandi Hill [00:22:13] Oh, I was just getting ready and testing out the button.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] Okay. Okay. All right. So any of you who have. Oh, do you want to. Do you want to say something? Tanner, yes or no? Agree. Disagree. Shared experience. Go ahead and. Tanner. And then Jared and.

Guest 2 [00:22:26] Sure.

Shandi Hill [00:22:28] I guess when I feel like most people who transition out of the church or orthodoxy, whatever it is, feel a sort of need to just kind of let everyone know. I did. I got tired of kind of feeling like I had to maintain the secret, and I didn't want to. I Didn't want to feel like I was deceiving anyone. I wanted people to accept me for me. And so I just kind of did a blanket announcement after talking to my family. And since the. And then. And then at some point, I think there's an angry stage, right? One of the stages of grief where you just kind of want to burn it down and you want to throw the CS letter at everyone, you know, and. And I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong way of handling these situations. You just have to understand what it is, what kind of relationship that you want to have with people. If you're trying to convince them of something and that's going to be a relationship, just know that that's what you're getting into. If you're just wanting to maintain healthy boundaries and a respectful sort of intimate distance, then make sure your communication is planned accordingly. And also realize one of the things, too. I think one of the mistakes I made early on in my commentary about ex Mormonism was trying to get everybody all riled up and trying to burn the church down. And I don't know that that's the best approach. At the end of the day, I think a person's own mental and emotional health is the most important thing, and the cause is only secondary to that. So do what you need to do to be healthy and plan your communication strategy accordingly.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:58] Love that.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] That's great. We're going to dig into a lot. You gave us a lot of good previews into some of the stuff we're going to go to in depth, so that was brilliant. Thank you, Tanner. All right, Brendan, Jared, I saw you guys on mute.

Balancing Self-Care and Protecting Relationships

Guest [00:24:11] Yeah. I was thinking about the mixture that Margi was talking about of self love and then also being protective of your loved ones. And I think that's really the crux of it. And Jared did a great job of that with me because his journey started a lot earlier than mine did. And he was very patient with me as I was mourning the loss of what I thought was eternal things. And so I really took, I think, CNC 1922, you know, the. Some good things that I can take out of the scriptures and still keep is one of those is DNC 1922, and that's the milk before meat idea. And I don't think it's. It doesn't have to be patronizing to say that. It's not that I'm saying I've got meat and my sustenance is better than your sustenance, but I'm Saying I have something that's difficult. It was difficult for me. It's going to be difficult for you. I'm going to tell you a little bit at a time. And I think for certain people and certain types of relationships, that's the best way to do it, is just be super patient. Remember that emotionally takes a lot longer to process than logically. And so you've already come those way, those steps, those logical steps, and you're at the end, and you want people to be there with you, and they're not going to be emotional. You have to give that time.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] Beautiful. Beautiful point. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Bryn. Jerry, did you have anything to add or.

Amy Grubbs [00:25:32] No.

Speaker G [00:25:32] I mean, I think Bryn covered it. When I had emotionally left the church, before Bryn had even started down her path, you know, I just had to regularly put myself in her shoes and remember how absolutely terrifying, in a sense, a lot of learning a lot of these things was for me. And although I felt very isolated while studying these things because I didn't feel like I could really open up like I truly wanted to in the long run. Doing it slowly was what was best for our relationship. And instead of just saying, look at this, this is not true, or this is true, or you don't know this, and I know this, you know, I tried to approach it in a. In a way where I was just open, asking questions, because I was asking questions to myself as well. But then I would include Bryn into those questions and kind of get her viewpoint as someone who maybe has not transitioned quite as far as I had, so that I could still kind of have that understanding of where she was and we could progress together just to some degree.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:34] I love that idea. I love that idea, too. Of when you're having those tough conversations that you're bringing. You may be bringing information, but you're not controlling your partner's conclusion of the information. I think that's super important, that they have the freedom to go ahead and use their own minds, hearts, in sort of processing what you're giving them.

Speaker G [00:26:56] Yeah, I think it's. You're quick. I was oftentimes quick to think that I knew the answers, but I didn't. I still don't know all the answers. You know, there's. The answers are still to be discovered. That's part of, you know, evolving through life. And so having her input on what she thought the answer was really helped evolve me through the process.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] That's beautiful. Thank you. Amy, I noticed you unmuted. Do you have something to share or something to Respond.

Amy Grubbs [00:27:22] Yeah, I think, you know, anytime you go through talking to somebody, I think there's no right or wrong way. I think we can all agree on that. And also, it depends on who you're talking to. And it's an ever evolving thing. And I think some people think it's going to end or it's going to be the same with everybody. And I think, really keeping in mind that it depends on who you talk to, what you're personally going through at that time, which that's going to change. It's not going to. There's not really an end point. A lot of times, and people want there to be an endpoint, but there's not necessarily is an endpoint. I do want to mention one of the questions that was on social media. It's from Rachel. She said, I worry about making some sort of public statement on social media about leaving the church because I don't want to be seen as being dramatic or trying to start drama. What are your thoughts on that? So just wanted to bring that question as well.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Do you have a response?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:20] Do you want me to go either way?

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Go ahead. That's not your style.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:27] I was gonna say, I think this is the beauty of it, is that you're kind of coming alive with yourself, where you get to navigate this on your own and reflect on what your intention is in doing it. And if it is feeling unsafe to you, if it's feeling like something that, you know, you're feeling anxiety about or as you're playing it out in your mind, if, then it may not be for you. So we have profoundly different, I feel like, styles of living. That's kind of the beauty of it,

John Dehlin [00:28:59] to say the least.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:59] Right. But that's the beauty of it. And I think the goal is finding your way that feels right for you and feeling emboldened in that, you know, beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] I'll just add, I can see the economy in doing a global Facebook post. And when people do that, oftentimes, like Tanner said, they're feeling so claustrophobic at being inauthentic, they just are bursting with the need to come out. I get that. I also have had people say, I think the Maloofs said they just didn't want to have that conversation 50,000 times with everybody.

Amy Grubbs [00:29:42] So.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] So they just felt like a Facebook post would be a way to reach out, just let everybody know, break the intensity, break the anxiety, just get it all out there and then let the chips fall where they may. So that's a. I think that's one way to do it. Like Amy said, there's no right or wrong way. I'll tell you some risks of doing that that come to my mind. You know, we talked about pearls before swine. We talked about not being able to control thinking carefully about who you're telling and how they respond. And when you go public like that, you really are making the decision that you're kind of going to open yourself up to the slings and arrows that can come. And it can be overwhelming and it can accelerate things sometimes faster, kind of like a fire hose. Then you're able to actually process. You also have to think about the implications with other people. Your coming out sometimes is going to force other people's coming out, whether it's a partner or children or others connected with you. And sometimes they not be ready. They may not be ready to come out. Or such a public announcement can affect their lives in ways that you might not foresee. So in my case, we had a very public excommunication. Margi talked about this very touchingly in her Mormon transitions interview. We underestimated the impact it would have on our children to have our story be so public. And that's not to say we regret it. That's not to say that was the wrong decision. But it was a heavy thing for our children in Cache County, Utah, to have to endure in public schools with 95% active believing members. It impacted their dating, it impacted their friendships, it impacted their how they saw themselves, how they felt walking around our neighborhood. So I don't say all that to scare you. I say that to give you guys things to think about. So that when you do it, you do it carefully and thoughtfully. Those are some things that come to my mind. Go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:01] I was gonna add one more thing, that one thing I might consider if I was gonna do a Facebook post, depending on how. I don't know how much you've communicated with your family or close people beforehand, but I might consider with people who I'm really close to maybe having those conversations first just to honor those relationships before, you know, kind of treating them in the mass way and just to make sure. I find social media to be tricky. It's just sort of a tricky endeavor. So I would make sure that I was up for. I think people become very brave when they're not looking someone in the face.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] That's a nice way to say it. Brave.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:48] Right. They. They say things ordinarily they wouldn't say. They become, you know, so I would make sure that I was kind of prepared for that emotionally.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Excellent Psychologically excellent. All right, thanks. Thanks to the. Thanks to the listener for sharing that question. We love that. Thanks to the panelists for their great insight. Let's now go. Just for the sake of progressing, let's go to the next topic. And this topic is actually going to be Margi. So Margi wanted to talk a bit about intention.

Setting Intentions Before Difficult Conversations

Margi Dehlin [00:33:26] Yeah. So one thing that I think is just helpful when you're talking about sharing vulnerable things, having a conversation with people who are different than you is to think, you know, what is my intention in revealing this information? Because I think it can change how you approach it. For example, are you trying to give a status update? Is this something where you're communicating with someone? Why you're not going, Is it a bishop? Is it someone you work with at church? Is it a neighbor? That's going to be different. How you process that and what you want to say and how you say it is going to be different than, say, really wanting to share out of intimacy or connection with someone who's safe to you and having that conversation with them. One would rely more on, like, information that you really want to think about, what you want to include and what you would exclude. I would probably think about boundaries, for example, if it's church people and how I speak, whereas if it's someone you're close to and you're really trying to connect and you have a great relationship with them, boundaries may not be key. And there can be more emotion that's conveyed versus, like, facts and trying to really think about it in those terms. So a few different ways to think about it, but intention, I think, is worth looking at.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] Beautiful. I'm going to add a few things. I'm going to echo what Tanner said, and I'm going to echo what Bryn said. There's this thing I call. I'm calling the Nephi Complex. I wish the Book of Mormon had more than, like, three female characters.

Speaker G [00:35:11] So.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] So I could give a female analog to the Nephi character by name, but unfortunately, alas, it doesn't. So I'm gonna use the Nephi Complex to discuss this scenario. And this is my experience. My experience is many, many, many of the people that I deal with didn't leave the church because they cared too little. These were the orthodox ones. These were the true believers. These were the assistance to the president or leaders on the mission. These were the seminary presidents. These were the hyper, almost hyper orthodox who took it really seriously and believed it all and lived accordingly. Most of the time, people like that, you know, have what I would call the Nephi complex. They're the good one. They're the good child. They love the positive reinforcements of. Of being righteous. They love the affirmation from their parents and from their siblings, from the culture. They just love doing good and being good. They love truth. And that's something that's natural. I think we all can relate to that. And so what's so incredibly painful, I think what's at the core of people's challenge with navigating Mormon transition is they don't want to let that go. They don't want to be looked down on by their spouse, looked down on by their parents, looked down on by their siblings. They don't want to all of a sudden be viewed as evil and dark and loathsome. And so you think logically, you think, oh, these people love me. My mother raised me, my father loves truth. My wife cares about me more than anyone. They want to know how I think and feel because they respect me. But more importantly, I can't abide the idea that they are going to look down upon me. And so I have to just desperately try to help them see my point of view, because if they don't, I'm going to turn to being viewed as evil as Darth Vader in their eyes. And I can't. My ego, my own personal ego, can't abide that hit to my reputation, to my self esteem, to those positive kudos and affirmations that I'm so used to. And so I think, and you guys can tell me if I'm wrong on the panel, but I think that's often the psychological motivation that goes into this sort of like, let me tell you why polyandry and peep stones and Book of Abraham. And let me. Here's the CES letter. And this not only just the factual deluge that we offer, but the emotional like, come on, guys, come on. And the anger that follows, it's like, you're not getting it. You're not seeing it. Oh, my gosh, I am that evil, dark person to you. And now our relationship is slipping. And it's like, you know, it's like, oh, it's slipping away. No. And it's the most sad, tragic thing people can experience oftentimes. And all I'll say is, Tanner is right. You cannot convince them logically of a position that they arrived at. Fill in the blank panel. Emotionally, you guys are muted. You cannot convince someone of a position they arrive. You cannot convince someone logically of a position they arrived at. Emotionally, you cannot do it. And Bryn talked about that as well. This is an emotional process. The best sort of metaphor I've ever heard for this comes from Jonathan Haidt. That's H A I D T. He's got several TED talks, but he wrote a book called the Righteous Mind, and he talks about the human consciousness being like a writer, like a man riding a big old elephant. Right. Think of the elephant as your emotions and as the emotions of the person you're talking to. Think of the rider as your cerebral cortex, as your reason, as your logic, and as theirs. Know that the elephant ultimately is going to go where it wants to go. They are going to process things emotionally. And Jonathan Haidt even says, we do not arrive at our positions logically. We arrive at our positions emotionally, and then we use logic to justify those positions. So you can't talk them out of their emotional position. And you have to remember that it is throwing money to the wind to try and change their mind or logically persuade them of anything. Now I'm going to pause. Margi, do you have anything you want to add to that?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:14] One thing I was thinking about was just the idea of that structure oftentimes that we have in the church of, like, being right or having the truth can carry into post Mormonism, where you're like, no, I'm right, though, but I'm right really right now, you know, and also. And so that's a really natural thing. And it can be helpful to sort of see that in yourself, too, that you carry a bit of that maybe, like, post, but also, like, can we just validate, like, the idea of what it takes to read painful things, to put the time in and to really process things that are difficult, that it's completely natural to want to say to someone, wait, but don't you understand, like, what it's taken for me to be here? Like, I've lost things and I'm mourning things. And can't you just see the. That that is completely understandable. It's just, this isn't your crowd. This isn't the place to do that. Hopefully, you'll have other relationships where you can have that safety and that validation and that venting that I think is really helpful to the process. It's just not with your orthodox family members, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:41:31] Beautiful. Thank you, sweetie. All right, let me quickly turn some perspective. Let me quickly seek the perspective of our panel who wants to jump in and who has something that they want to share in reaction. Shandy, I see you unmuted.

Guest 2 [00:41:49] So to Margi's point, that you kind of need to know who your audience is. Right. Who you're talking to. That was one thing that my husband and I really struggled with. And because a lot of times you're surrounded, especially people, I think in Utah, maybe their whole families are orthodox, their friends. And so a lot of time it's super isolating. And that's why I think it's really good to find, you know, go to Mormon Spectrum, find those groups of people who are like minded, tell us what Mormon spectrum is.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] For those who don't know, what's Mormon spectrum?

Guest 2 [00:42:26] So Mormon Spectrum for those of you that don't know is you can go in and find communities near you of, you know, post Mormon or I mean progressive or, you know, it's the spectrum of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Good.

Guest 2 [00:42:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] And this is true in Houston, in New York, in London. They're everywhere. Yep, yep.

Guest 2 [00:42:52] You've got to find your in person communities, you've got to find your online communities and just use those safe havens to kind of get you through until you feel like you can talk to people.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Beautiful. And if there isn't, it's probably worth saying that if there isn't a Mormon spectrum where you live, usually you can email the Mormon Spectrum team and they will create a group for you or you can create a group and they'll share the, the new group that you've created. I know there's a listener in Reno who wants to start one. Mormon Spectrum. People, if you're listening, we need to get one going in Reno and we need to answer the email of the person who's reaching out. But Shandy, that's great. Any other panelists want to jump in with anything? Are you guys, you guys all doing okay? And Amy, if you want to also. Okay, Jared, we'll have you in. Bryn, talk. And Amy, if you've got any comments from Facebook, we'd love to hear it, but go ahead, Bryn and Jared.

Writing Letters and Choosing Your Approach

Guest [00:43:48] John, I was just thinking about what you said about people making decisions emotionally and I was reading a book called Trying not to Try by Edward Slingerland and he talks about a study and I can't remember who did the study, but of some people who had brain damage on parts of their brain that regulate emotion. And while they could do certain types of logic puzzles that were abstract, the second you gave them a logic puzzle where they had to put themselves into it, they just broke down. They, they cannot figure it out for the life of them. And so when we take a second and we stop and we. You have to give yourself the mental Time to think about how these people are going to take something that you say to them that has eternal consequences. You just take those 10 seconds, put yourself in their place, and let it take that time. So for us, when we did our Facebook post, I think we had a little bit of that Nephi complex where we wanted people to know we were reading our scriptures. These are the questions that people have been asking us. You know, here's a list of all the things we were doing, just so you know. But on the other hand, we didn't put any of the evidences against.

Guest 2 [00:44:54] We.

Guest [00:44:55] We put it in a metaphor. So we basically said it's like a riddle. And A plus B did not equal C for us. And so we're not going to tell you what those things are because it's offensive for a lot of people. We're just going to put them in a metaphor, let you know we left for those reasons. And our backlash, I think, was pretty mitigated, don't you think? I don't think we got much backlash.

Speaker G [00:45:14] Yeah, for the most part, it was pretty support. We had a handful of people that reached out to us negatively. That was just surprising the way that they reached out to us. But I would say the vast majority, 90, 95% were positive, at least those who reached out to us. Obviously there's a lot of silence as well, people not knowing how to respond. But of those who did reach out to us, the vast majority were very kind and very positive.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] Yeah, I'll just echo. We have in our show notes less is more. And I think that's often the case. Less is more. And we're going to talk about. There's some psychological reasons for that, but. Amy, I saw you unmuted. What do you have to share?

Amy Grubbs [00:45:50] Just really quick. Some people have been asking if they could possibly get an example of your exit post. Jared and Bryn. And maybe we could put that in the show notes.

Speaker G [00:45:58] Yeah, we can share the link or we can read part. I mean, what would you like?

Amy Grubbs [00:46:04] Show notes. That would be great.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] Yeah, share it with Amy and. Or Shandy and we'll make sure and get it on the post.

Amy Grubbs [00:46:10] Great, thank you.

Guest [00:46:10] I just posted it on we supposed on Facebook on the comments on the Mormon transitions Facebook page.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Nice social media for the win. We'll post it in the show notes as well. Shandi, did you have something.

Guest 2 [00:46:23] Yeah, if I can add to that, you know, for anybody who wants kind of a template. I did when I came out to my family. Thoughtful transitions. If you're part of the group, we have saved several of people's letters to their families. And you can actually. And they're saved so that you can go in there and get ideas or, you know, make it your own and send it to your family.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] Thanks, Shandy. Tanner, did you unmute for a second? No. You're good? Okay. All right. Okay, good. All right, so let's, let's keep plugging. But this is great for. I love the participation from our listeners. I want to let you guys know that, you know, our goal is such that you guys can actually call into the show with your telephone or join us through a video and ask your questions and discuss it. But we're getting there. We're not quite there yet. All right, so we've talked about, we've talked about intention. We've talked about the dominant role of emotion versus logic really quickly. One thing that we've already kind of touched on is there's obviously lots of ways to have this conversation. There's writing a written letter. Sometimes people really like the handwritten letter. There's writing emails. There's doing it over the phone if you feel like it's not safe to do it face to face. There's doing it one on one. There's doing it in a group. I think it's important to consider, should you have someone safe with you? Like if you're worried in a one on one situation, someone won't treat you respectfully? Do you bring a partner? Do you bring a friend? Do you have. Have it be two on two or would that cause more complication? So obviously it's kind of important to talk about ways to have the conversation. We've talked about coming out on social media. Marg, anything you wanted to add to that?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:22] I was just going to make an observation for people that I know that have written a letter. Oftentimes it's to the church or. And that can be really helpful for someone that's really trying to understand their own story kind of. They'll write this sort of detailed account of what it's felt like for them. And that can be tremendously helpful for some as well as, you know, the one on one having the strength where you know the person. You can consider this with each person if they're just. It feels like there are just benefits and drawbacks to kind of anything that you choose. So just consider each carefully and yeah, do as you feel, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] And I liked what Wilbur said earlier that you can start with your loved ones and then maybe go out to some emails. And then if you someday want to Do a Facebook post or social media post. It's after you've brought your dearest loved ones in the loop and there aren't any surprises. A couple other points to kind of end this section about preparing for the conversation. I think timing matters. If it's breakfast and your kids are screaming on the way to school, maybe that's not the time to tell your wife you don't believe anymore the setting matters. I had someone tell me that they had this long awaited anniversary where they went to Cabo, Mexico and it was like a honeymoon anniversary and that's when they decided and that may have even worked for them. I'm not saying that's a wrong decision. But think about timing, think about the setting and again, think about the people who might be involved. So that's sort of our discussion about assessing the situation, assessing how to have the conversation, et cetera. Amy, real quick, are there any other comments? Are there anecdotes, anything from the, from the live viewers that we want to share?

Amy Grubbs [00:50:42] Right now everybody's just agreeing, a lot of thumbs up. There are some questions, but they could take us in a different direction. So wait on those. Okay?

John Dehlin [00:50:50] Okay, cool. All right, so I think we're ready to jump to the next section.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:55] Yeah, we're going to move into having the conversation, so.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Very good. Okay, so here's a point that I made that Margi actually maybe disagreed with a little bit. And so she was like, well, I won't talk about it. I'm like, no, no, no, I want you to disagree with me. So behold potential disagreement between me and Margi. The point that I wrote down was, remember your privilege. And what I mean by that is the difference between the questioning or doubting or disaffected Mormon and the orthodox is that we know what it's like to be true believing and orthodox. And so for me, for me that's privilege. That means that you get their point of view and they can't. You know that because you were once like them and you probably shouted down anti Mormons when they confronted you before. You know what it's like to not be open, to not be able to understand. And so I sort of suggested that maybe that gives you an extra burden of privilege or an extra responsibility of compassion, of empathy, of patience, because you know what it's like. Now I'm not saying you disagree with that, Margi, but why don't you talk quickly about, you know, your caution with that type of language.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:23] Okay, so I do love, I do agree with what the point that you're making. I just. Because I'm an English major, so I kind of get nitty gritty with these things. But, like, if I just view this as very difficult stuff. That's all. And so when you talk about it like you have an extra duty, you have an extra responsibility. I'm just not. I'm not eager. You say that to me. And I'm already burdened. You know, I'm more burdened than I started, you know, because it's. It is tough. It's tougher. All of this is tough. So what I would. The way I would word it is just you have a perspective they don't have. You have, you know, versus it being your responsibility now that you're. I just find to be process oriented. I focus on my doing my part, and then I really can't control how they process or how they react. And that's really helpful for me to remember in the conversation. So it was just a little. It was a word deal, babe.

Guest 2 [00:53:25] That's it.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Does any panelists. I want to open give panelists at any point, just unmute if you want to kind of make a comment. Because we want this to be super conversational. So if any of you want to make a quick comment, we'd love to have it as well. So please feel free. As well as listeners or viewers, please feel free to share a question or comment on Facebook and Amy can share that this time. Okay, so here's a really important point that I found. You're now in the conversation and you're now trying to figure out what to say. And my first tip is to offer reassurance to begin by making the person you talk to feel as safe as possible. That's super important because what you don't want to do is trigger their fight or flight response, get their emotional brain overriding their frontal cerebral cortex and dealing with just sort of rage or fear or sobbing or whatever the emotional brain can do. And this is hard because sometimes if you give some big disclaimer that can make them more worried than if you just got right to the point. But what I like to say to people is start by saying I've got something that's kind of hard to tell. It may be. It kind of may make you sad. But I want you to know something. My view about the church has changed. And just notice that I said very, very little. But I kind of gave the essential information. My views on the church have changed. It's not what they used to be. But I want you to know something. There's one thing that's important for me in this conversation above everything else, and that's that you know that I love and respect you. And I will never do anything to try and hurt your faith, to challenge your faith, to persuade you, to try and get you to change. I want you to know that you are safe with me. And so I am just going to give you only that bit of information that my views on the church have changed. I don't see the church like I used to. But I give you my solemn promise that I will never try and dissuade you or others. And I'm going to deal with this on my own. You don't feel like you need to fix it or save me or jump it in any way? I won't share any of the details with you. I'm doing that intentionally. Even if you ask me for the details, I'm going to be hesitant to want to give them. I'm going to be more likely to refer you to a reference, a podcast or a website or a book. I would much rather just let you look up the information or the reasons on your own and have that be between you and your conscience and your God and your family and whoever. I just want to let you know that things have changed for me, but I'm okay, and then go into building on commonalities. That's the second point. And the second point is I can almost guarantee you that the moral difference between a post Mormon and an Orthodox Mormon is 98% shared. And so what you should do as a strategy is focus on the similarities. I'm still the same person. I still believe in honesty. I still love my spouse if you do. I still love family. I still believe in integrity and honor and kindness and love. And I'm 100% still there. We're going to probably see things differently at times, but what I would love to do in this relationship is focus on what unites us and where we're still the same similar people and not allow our relationship to be schismed over the differences. Now I'm going to pause. I see that Bryn has unpaused and Amy. Let's go to Bryn first and then we'll go to Amy.

Guest [00:58:07] John, I wish Jared was still here. He had to go get one of our kiddos. But I think he did a letter to his mother and it was exactly what you said. I think it worked out really well and it talked about boundaries on both sides. I'm not going to try to do this to you. And please don't do this to me. And I'm really reiterating the relationship part of that. And I think whenever you do that, and if a conversation ensues afterward, it's important to remember to be respectful, to keep sarcasm out of it, keep it to a minimum. Always remember to use proper titles. I mean, don't go around saying Oaks. If you can say Elder Oaks, and if you can stomach that, then say it that way. It's the same that you would treat anybody in any other religion. Right. And one thing that I like to really bring up with a lot of people is Alma 18:32, talks about that we'll be judged by the intentions of our hearts. And Elder Oaks, actually, I think talked about that in 1985 about, you know, God loves on your heart, so reiterating that to your loved ones, that I want what's good. You know me, you know that I'm trying to do what's right and I'm trying to have integrity in this. And then, like you said, keeping it to a minimum about what actual facts you. You tell them, making sure that they ask for them, not that you're just spewing them out. Remind them of where your intentions lie. I think is really important.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Beautiful. I had a. Margi's pointing out, I had a point. Let them lead. Once you've sort of dropped that initial bomb, which is. That's a bomb. Just saying I don't quite believe like I used to. Still a bomb. Once you've dropped that bomb, Let them lead if you can. Don't get abused, you know, have boundaries, don't allow yourself to be mistreated. But listen, empathize, validate as much as you can. I know that you're the one in pain. You think and you feel like it's your time to vent and emote, but remember that you've had months or years to process what you're going through. This is brand new for them. So let them lead. Okay, Amy, what did you want to add?

Amy Grubbs [01:00:14] Just really quick. I was thinking about when you were talking about how to really try to talk about your similarities, and I thought of an example. My nephew just went on a mission and we're really close, and he was asking me specifically why we left the church and what I believe in still now. And instead, you know, he's getting ready to leave to Madagascar, and so I'm not going to tell him all the reasons that we left. So I talked about all the things that I still believe that I knew were in line with what he still believed. And that really helped him and it kind of. We came away with a really good conversation and I think that that is really important. I also wanted to just point out a comment that JP made. He said, a perspective from a believing Mormon, no big deal needs to be made. You don't need to go out and share your non testimony. One of the biggest concerns I have with Mormons and ex Mormons alike is their certainty of their convictions. And he says a bit more, but I think the key is to remain open minded and to be intellectually humble. And so I just wanted to comment on that because I think that's a

Shandi Hill [01:01:19] really good point as well, along with

Amy Grubbs [01:01:20] what you're talking about.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Love that. Thank you, Amy. All right, Tanner, I see you unmuted.

Finding Common Ground with Believing Loved Ones

Shandi Hill [01:01:25] Yeah, I struggle a little bit with this topic because on the one hand I totally agree with what you said as far as methodology of finding common ground and of establishing a safe space. And that's something I think has come a really long way with my family, with my siblings, is saying like, listen, guys, I love you for who you are and what you are and what you do. And even if you want to, like, you don't have to feel like you have to. Your faith needs to be a secret from me. It doesn't have to be an awkward thing. I delight that you find joy in what you're doing. But I also don't want to play into the Mormon stereotype. I don't like the tone, policing and feeling like I'm not allowed to talk about my experience either. So I think it's establishing that it does go both ways, that I will respect you for your faith and I may be discussing these things in a public venue, you know, maybe Facebook or in other ways, but that doesn't change my feeling toward you. And I think so it's important to understand, to try to find that balance of not saying, I'm just, you know, I left the church and I'm just gonna leave it alone and be quiet and never mention it again and keep this part of my life totally hidden. And I'll never post a picture of myself in a, you know, in a two piece swimsuit or having a beer. It's like your shoulders.

Speaker G [01:02:41] Yeah.

Shandi Hill [01:02:41] I'm going to be open with my life because I'm trying to live the best that I can and I want your love and support and I'm going to give that same thing to you.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:52] I love that point. Love that point. One of the things that I was thinking of was the idea of modeling unconditional love and also learning to accept differences. Because I think within the church structure, that's something that we really struggle with. We have to be the same, we have to think the same. And the love is completely conditional upon that. Once you start acting out of line, it's cut, it's off. And so it's just like what you're saying, that even during the conversation, you get to emulate, you know, you're gonna be different. Look, you're. That oftentimes is what happens. People have. Well, in our situation, I guess a lot of information was out there. And so we would have a lot of anxiety, fear, messages, emoting, people saying, you know. And it was this perfect time to just say, you know, to model. The fact that I can see that's causing you a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear. That's really hard. Here's how I am feeling about it right now. And being able to love them, being different than you and giving them opportunities to see that you will love them and you'll be yourself. You can still make decisions that are right for you. And you can also support and sort of offering this new love template of like, no, really, we can do differences, and it doesn't have to affect the love part of our relationship at all.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Man, I love that there's so much to say. I agree that one of the silver linings in this cloud is that you discover that so many of your relationships are superficial. Your relationships in your ward, your relationships with your spouse, your relationships with family and friends. And if you can weather the trauma of these early difficult discussions, the silver lining on the other side of that cloud is whether it's with your partner, whether it's with your parents, your siblings, friends, whoever, if they're willing to practice true friendship, true intimacy, which is vulnerability, safety, connection, respectful disagreement, healthy boundaries. If you're willing to go through that process, I guarantee you for healthy people, the outcome on the other side of that, regardless of what people do with the church, is an improved, more intimate, more substantive, deeper, more connected relationship. So I love that. Brilliant. Tanner, I also just want to validate what you said. What I don't like about what I said is it puts all the burden on the non believer of having to say everything right and do everything right. And it's hard enough just to go through this thing and there's not always one right way. So I guess the advice I offer is sort of talking to a few thousand people, trying to do an average of what tends to work best with the most people. But heaven knows, Tanner, that Mormon missionaries are out preaching the gospel 80,000 people strong across the world. TBMs, don't you know, true believing Mormons don't mind posting their testimonies on Facebook. Why should the non believer or the doubter feel like they have to hide their light, so to speak, under a bushel? And so if you want to live openly and preferably respectfully, that's totally your right. And if you just want to be direct and candid, do that too. You know, I would actually argue that's

Margi Dehlin [01:06:33] for the good of all, really. I mean, to be able to practice these things and allow our family members that. That is part of. I feel like the beauty of family. Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] The optimum situation is that everybody can live their truth with respect for themselves and for others and be respected. Shandy, do you want to jump in real quick? Are you good? You're good? Okay. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:58] So.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] All right, next on the list is what? Margi?

Recognizing When Conversations Go Off Track

Margi Dehlin [01:07:05] Well, one thing I was thinking about is I think we've been in definite situations where the conversation starts to go awry. Have you ever had that, you guys, where you're in a conversation, you can tell, oh, this is. This is not going. Here we go. And so I've noticed for myself when that happens, I have like a fight or flight response. Like, my heart starts to. I can tell I'm starting to, like, have heat. Like my body is actually creating heat for myself. And don't hesitate in a conversation when you start to know I'm getting into fight or flight. I am now getting angry. I'm getting triggered by the conversation to end it, to say something like, you know, maybe it would be better for us to try this another time when it will. It will feel safer for both of us. Do not hesitate to opt out. I think it's one of. It respects the relationship, it leaves the relationship intact versus holding on for dear life. And then all manner of damage is done. And then you have. I mean, it's that much more complicated because then you have the issue and then you have all the hurt now that has compounded the issue. So don't hesitate to end at a point in the conversation with. When you can tell the conversation you've lost control or it's gone to a trigger place.

John Dehlin [01:08:28] Yeah, agreed. I just want to add in my. I'm not a neurologist. I do have a PhD in psychology. I'll just say the little that I've learned about the fight or flight response, it's evolved in us from millions of years of organic evolution. It's healthy on the savanna if we think there's something going wrong. To run, to flee. The physiological response that happens is literally the body redirects blood from your brain to your muscles and to your heart. It kicks in hormones that make your heart start pumping so that you can run away from the lion that's trying to eat you. You are dumber. There is evidence that when your fight or flight system triggers in, your IQ literally drops somewhere like 10 or 20 points. That's a rough, you know, referral. But check it out. You are dumber, and they are dumber when you're triggered.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:34] Get out.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] So the trick is, how do you end it respectfully and just like, I'm done. I'm out of here. This is over. You don't want to just, like, drop the mic and run away. So the question is, how do you. And I'm seeing that Jared's back. Jared and Bryn, you guys unmuted. How do you end respectfully without doing more damage and coming across as a diva?

Guest [01:09:59] I know. I feel like I'm talking a lot.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] No, you're not. You're doing great.

Guest [01:10:03] I think that you don't. Sometimes you don't. That's the thing, right? This is all about making mistakes and being able to come back from it honestly. Because every person is different. Every type of relationship is different. What you want out of the relationship is different, and so you stumble through it, and that's just how it's going to be. But the thing is, I think as you go through, to be conscious, as conscious as you can about what you're doing and why you're doing it, and at that point, hopefully that will counteract some of that fight. Well, fight, flight, or freeze is how we say it. But so counteract some of that so that you can be your smartest self as you go along.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:43] Love that.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Bryn. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:50] Sometimes I find just acknowledging the tension is a great way to segue because you can actually acknowledge it and say, I can tell things have heated up some now, actually. I really care about this relationship. I don't want to hurt you. I would rather stop now or ask a question.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Should we. Should we table this for now?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:10] You're not, like, controlling and revisit it later.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] That work?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:13] Good, babe.

John Dehlin [01:11:15] Okay, the next Tanner.

Shandi Hill [01:11:18] I was just gonna say, you don't. You mean we're not supposed to just bear our testimony and walk away?

John Dehlin [01:11:26] Oh, wow. We have. We have ptsd, don't we? And it's hard to shake the Mormon you can sometimes take the boy out of the Mormon, but it's hard to take the Mormon out of the girl or boy. All right, so I have this next concept called refer, and it's kind of a deeper concept, but we'll dig into it. I once had a podcast listener who lived in another state, and turned out his brother was in my ward. And so he would call me and say, dude, my brother's in your ward. And, oh, my gosh. And, you know, I never breached that confidentiality, and it never came up. And for many years, the member of my ward, you know, we just. We had a relationship, and he had no idea that his brother was even doubting. At some point, this member of my ward found out that his brother had been listening to me all this time and had left the church. And so the neighbor. And I was desperate at the time for to be. To have someone in the ward that kind of understood me. So when this ward member knocks on my door, he's like, I heard that you. I heard that my brother listens to you. I want to hear all about it. Tell me all about Mormon stories of what you do. And my reaction was like, come on in. You know, come on in, brother. Have a seat. Took him down to my office, and I went through, like, an hour of, like, every, you know, basically Mormon think and CES letter and every single issue that I've struggled with knowing for sure that if he was asking me, he wanted to know, and that once he was to the point where he wanted to ask, that, he was going to immediately say, yep, I get it. Either I'm in the same place as you, or, okay, now I get it now. We're eternal brothers, and I've got your back and smooth sailing. You've got a homie in your ward, and we'll be best buds and best neighbors. Smooth sailing. That's not what happened. Fast forward a month. Never heard from him again. And guess who gets up to bear their testimony in sacrament meeting? And guess who had a scorching sermon to preach in sacrament meeting for testimony meeting about the kori whores and the Nihors who lie in wait to deceive and lead the tender young testimonies out of the church? And this was when I was still a believer and trying to make church work. And I'm not quoting the actual talk. This is a lovely human. This is a beautiful person. He was great around excommunication, and when I ended up getting excommunicated, he was lovely. He sent me a note that was very Personal. That said, some of the best people I've ever known have been excommunicated. Beautiful person. But my point is, just because they say they want to know doesn't mean they want to know. And just because they're asking you doesn't mean you should tell them. My recommended tactic, and I've mentioned this before, is give them a book reference they can read. Point them to the church essays, point them to a safe podcast that they can listen to. You know, give them CES letter or MormonThink. Find someone faithful that they can talk to. Don't feel like it's your job to educate them. Not because you couldn't do a good job, not because you should feel silence, like Tanner says, but instead because it could jeopardize your relationship. It could make you the bearer of bad news. It puts you in the position of doing what you don't want to do, which is disrespect them. And unless they're really insistent, my suggestion is to be very careful before you sort of take that bait. Now, is that controversial to any of our panelists, to any of our listeners, if you're disagreeing. Jared and Bryn, I was going to

Speaker G [01:15:58] say with our blog post that we co wrote and posted on Facebook, one aspect of it that I kind of regret is we opened it up. We said, you know, we're not giving you specifics here, but if you have a specific question, we'll be happy to entertain that. And in hindsight, I sometimes regret that because we did get it, just opened it up for people to shoot us. Messages on Facebook. Tell me the specific thing that convinced you to leave the church or whatever. And of all those people that we chose, we did respond to, you know, I think the vast majority of them, it did nothing. There was no benefit in responding to them. It didn't. They didn't say, oh, aha, you know, here's the light bulb for us. And if anything, it may have tarnished a handful of value, you know, valued relationships because they weren't at the position that they were going to listen sincerely or that they want to investigate it sincerely. All the information is readily available. So if they wanted it, it would have just taken them two seconds to figure it out on their own. And so that I agree completely with what you're saying. I kind of wish we wouldn't have done that because I don't think it was a good move on our behalf.

John Dehlin [01:17:08] Beautiful. Thanks, Jared. Something that I have to remind myself is that no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody was published in the 1940s. And that has everything you need to know, if you want to know. And you don't need the Tanners or Sunstone or dialogue or CES letter or Mormon stories or even Zelf on the shelf to kind of get the picture. If you're open. So beautiful. Okay, I'm still looking. Panelists, if you have anything to add, please unmute. Or, Amy, if you want to share any comments or posts, please share them online and Amy will pass them along. I do. So my next point is something kind of a little bit deeper, and I haven't fully developed it, but I want to float it. Okay. And this is about the power of creating space, okay. And I'm going to actually mix the metaphors, so forgive me. Imagine that you and your spouse are in a boat, okay? You're both in a boat and your children are sitting between you on opposite ends of the boat. Let's say that one of you sees an alligator in the lake, okay? But no one else sees it. So you see the alligator and you freak out. Your fight or flight system kicks in. You stand up and you start screaming,

The Alligator Analogy and Emotional Safety

Speaker G [01:18:45] there's an alligator, there's an alligator.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] We're all gonna die. Okay, what do you think your spouse and panel. I'm gonna ask you guys, one of you to unmute and answer this question. What do you think your spouse on the other side of the boat who sees you stand up screaming and shaking the boat, what is their knowing that there are children in the boat? What do you think their response is immediately going to be physiologically, physically, Tanner, you have to unmute. No. Margi, do you want to jump in?

Margi Dehlin [01:19:18] I think they're going to try and stabilize at any cost, which probably will mean that they ask you to calm down, sit down, you know, provide an opposite fit.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] As long as you're rocking the boat, about to tip it over, the spouse is going to hold on to the edges. They're going to hold on stronger than they were before, and they're going to do everything they can to keep the boat from tipping over, to keep it from rocking. And their fight or flight system will be activated, too. It'll just be around self preservation instead of sort of freak out and try and kill the crocodile mode. Okay? So with that, I want to offer an alternative metaphor, okay? And this may not even be a metaphor, but what happens? What happens when something happens to somebody and you say, oh, it's okay, it's fine, everything's good. Psychologically, what does that do to somebody? Let's just say I had this intense meeting with my father. My wife wasn't present, but then I come home and I'm done with the meeting. And she says, what happened? I'm like, oh, we're good. What's the psychological response of allowing that space? And I'm not saying be manipulative, but this is just a reality of how humans work. When you create that space, what's the reaction?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:56] Yeah, normally people will be more open because they won't be in fight or flight. They'll be in a relaxed state. And you're more apt to influence and be able to have to have connection to reach.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Yeah. And I would even say, way to sort of illustrate this further. What happens when you tell a kid not to go in the closet? Right. Don't look in the closet. Don't think about the pink elephant. What's the reaction? Is their interest increase or decrease? Panelists, help me out, somebody. I get the thumbs up from Tanner Shandy. What happens to the interest?

Guest 2 [01:21:37] It goes way up.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] Exactly. And so all I'm trying to suggest is in this discussion that you're having with them, part of the less is more is that you allow them to be calm, to have their own process. And by you creating that space, you allow them to have interest. You allow them to the emotional security and stability to decide they may want to investigate themselves. And I'll tell you, for so many mixed faith couples, the holdout, the believing spouse, has often said to me, the moment I felt comfortable actually considering the issues that my doubting spouse brought up was the moment that they stopped pushing me. The moment that they stopped trying to manipulate and force me and control me. Once they felt unconditionally loved and accepted and like they had the space to have their own process and the respect to have their own process. For them, that was the moment where they actually felt the freedom and the dignity to start actually considering the question at hand. That was really sort of over the top dramatic. I'm wondering if panelists or listeners want to comment or have anything. Amy, go ahead.

Amy Grubbs [01:23:12] Well, I just want to make sure that, you know, people really like the boat analogy. Jana likes it, Scott likes it, Jeff likes it. And so that resonated with people. So even though you may thought it was dramatic, it resonated with people.

Shandi Hill [01:23:25] So good job.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Thank you listeners for your positive reinforcement. I'm just some guy coming up with ideas, so it's nice to get some validation. Bryn and Jared, you guys unmuted.

Navigating Boundaries and Children During Transition

Guest [01:23:39] Another thing I was thinking along that metaphor is the other thing that they do is they grab the kids. Right. And a lot of people are asking about specifics. You know, how do we ask? How do we tell our kids? What if our kids are in, you know, the ones that are in jeopardy. And one of the things that Jared often does in our.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] Okay, okay, Brent, I should tell you

Guest [01:24:06] is to remind against somebody else.

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Okay, Bren, we lost you for a second. Can you repeat what you just said? You were saying something. You say to Jared. Can you just repeat that your connection for a second about.

Guest [01:24:20] So about kids, you have to remind people verbally that you're on the same team. So I mean, whatever words you use to do that, I don't know. But Jared will often say, like, why are, why are we feeling antagonistic right now? Let's stop and remember that we're on the same team. We want the same goal. Remind ourselves of what that goal is. Start over on the conversation.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:42] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] Brilliant. So many people allow their children to become the footballs in the football game of the faith crisis. And I strongly recommend you and your spouse have a firm commitment to never letting that happen. We will have an entire episode on how to come out to children and how to deal with spouses. That may be on this different page, but I'll say this. If you're a believer or a non believer, if you're a believer and you're worried that your kids will be sucked down to hell by your non believing spouse, and if you're a non believing spouse and you believe that your kids will become racist, sexist homophobes if they're raised in the church or whatever it is, I'm going to tell you something I've learned and that's that the damage the kids will experience by having their parents treat them as footballs in a game of their faith crisis battle will likely do 20 times more damage than either them being raised active in the church or leaving the church. Trust me on that. So whatever it is, don't allow the children to become footballs in the faith crisis. Stay tuned for more on that topic in a future episode. But that's. Amy, that's my quick answer to that question. And we'll talk more about that later. Thanks again, Bryn. All right, we're pretty much at the end of this section. I think listening is good, reflective listening, showing lots of empathy if you can. And again, boundaries. Margaret, do you want to talk about boundaries?

Margi Dehlin [01:26:31] So just quickly, there is a place for boundaries in this discussion. And normally I found the need to boundary around if for some reason there's disrespect or attack mode comes about. Or I did sometimes boundary when we were going to church, but we were in that different realm of maybe going with our kids or John and I would sometimes take turns. So I thought I would illustrate different types of boundarying as well as refocusing. There's a time for refocusing too, when someone's really hostile and just some examples of that. So when we were going to church, it was common for church members, even though they could see sort of one of us sometimes wouldn't go, the other one would not go. So whoever went would get the question, well, where's John? Where's John? And it was. So the intention wasn't necessarily. I didn't feel like, to understand, like really concern, like, is John okay? How is John doing? But more like a call out, like, where's John today? Everyone else is here. Where's John? And that I boundaried. I'd say, John could make it today. And they'd be like, oh, is he sick? What happened to him? Is he just not. He couldn't make it today. That was a boundary. I would just repeat it over and over again with zero. I decided the information I wanted to give and that was all I gave, basically.

John Dehlin [01:28:00] And so you'd repeat that multiple times

Margi Dehlin [01:28:03] and oftentimes it would become increasingly insistent or more nosy in nature. And I just repeated and they got it pretty quickly. And normally I'd follow it up with a goodwill question, how's your family? Like, how are you doing? Or nice to see you today or whatever. But that was a way of sort of communicating. Your access is denied in this area because it wasn't safe and the intention really wasn't about truly understanding what was going on. Does that make sense? So that's an example of one type of boundary. Another type of boundarying would be like we had some situations of emoting, especially amidst the excommunication, was really hard on people. And so this would be after a process, let's say, of talking about it. So really good faith efforts with people hearing them out. But this constant emoting of negativity about John. So it's just like, what is he doing? Like, he's going to ruin your family. He's like, has he not caused enough pain and suffering? Those types of things. Right. Highly volatile, highly emotional, divisive comments that. That was another time where I would choose to boundary where initially I would try and actually talk about why. Like, it's not really helpful. Like, you know, I'm married to him. Like, I Love him, we're all on the same team. But when that was, you know, it came up again and again. I would say this is something I'm not really going to talk about anymore with you. I'm so sorry you're in pain. You're going to have to find someone else to talk to. That type of boundary where I can't discuss it with you, I don't have the energy and it's just not productive conversation. So the need to boundary is there. And I would look at it like it is.

John Dehlin [01:29:46] Talk about Brene Brown and boundaries, how boundaries don't create distance.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:51] So it's self protective. It is true boundaries are self protective, but they are also for the other

John Dehlin [01:29:56] person and for the relationship.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:58] That's right. Because what happens is if you don't and you sit there and you do engage in those you feel, over time, the relationship is disrespected, resentment builds, you feel hurt, and what ends up happening, you lose empathy. You lose crucial elements of the relationship being good. Good boundaries should build empathy. It should actually create greater space for empathy. They are for the good of the relationship with the people. So it is self care, but is also for people, if that makes sense. The last type of boundarying, which is tricky, like if I did have some situations where someone's really antagonistic, so the question itself is fueled. It's like, so like what, you don't believe in God anymore? You just don't believe anything anymore? Like a question like that.

Guest 2 [01:30:46] Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:30:47] I've had that. In that case, like, it can be really hard, especially if it's a family member. You're like, so in that case, what I have tried to do, because boundarying can feel really severe if the person's super sensitive but highly offensive, is I refocus. I'll be like, you know, well, I can tell. What do you want to tell me about? Like, I can tell God means a lot to you. So what does it mean to you? And in this case, the person really loved to talk. So that was just enough to like get a different topic. But try to refocus in some way, you know, that is legitimate. Not like, this meal is delicious. I mean, I wouldn't do something like that where it's like overtly ridiculous. But trying to sort of like turn the conversation to, you know, another point. But these are all sort of ways to keep a relationship in a healthy place so that you're engaging and connecting in positive ways.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] Jared and Bryn, a really good way

Guest [01:31:53] I've found it that works with my relationships to do that is to ask why. So any question you get from somebody, you say why do you want to know that until they're actually internalizing their own thought process for why? And at some point, sometimes they'll even get to enough honesty to say, I want to persuade you back in, you know, and that's fine. And then you can talk about that. And why does. That's the easiest way I found. Just ask them.

Guest 2 [01:32:19] I love that.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:20] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:32:21] Love that. Thank you. Thank you, Bryn. All right, it's time to wrap up. Do you want to talk about self care really quick? You talked about it a bit, but why don't you talk about self care? And panelists, if it's okay, I want you all to prepare a closing statement. So listen to Margi and prepare a closing statement. Final words of wisdom from each of you to share with our audience before we have some closing comments.

Closing Reflections and Final Advice

Margi Dehlin [01:32:46] Margi, he just puts you on the spot like that. No warning.

John Dehlin [01:32:51] I warned.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:52] That's right. Okay, just a quick thought about self care. You know, there's been a lot of talk about things to think, think about where it can feel. And I would just say, remember, when you're communicating with loved ones, the best way that it will go well is if your expectation isn't that they're taking care of you. So hopefully in your life amidst transitioning or amidst this process that you're going through, you can find safe people, great people that you can talk regularly with, you can feel and communicate in safe ways without this constant filtering and effort that you oftentimes have to have to do amidst transitioning and to amidst the conversation, practice self care. Like try deep breathing, try after, try to get out for a walk. Or if you can, listen to soft like try to just be present to your emotional state and take care of yourself honestly. And even amidst the process, you know, just pay attention to your physical health, your psychological health and take good care of yourself. And ultimately, like above all, be gentle, be gentle with the process. It is messy. There is no perfect conversation you're going to have that's going to wrap it up, package it up neatly and tie it with a bow. That's just not what it's about anymore. You know, that's not how relationships work. And so the best you have is the best you have in the moment and learn to just be gentle and let the rest go. Begin again.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] Wise words. Beautiful. All right, so let's have our panelists one by one, share. Shandy, you've been quiet, so I'm going to call on you to go first.

Guest 2 [01:34:43] Closing statement, right?

John Dehlin [01:34:45] Yep.

Guest 2 [01:34:48] So I just would want to kind of echo what Margi said. Just remember that. I know it's cliche, but time heals all wounds. You know, this is a process. I remember when I first started going through this, I couldn't. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. I was obsessed with all my research, and it completely took over my life. So you need to remember, like Margi said, be gentle with yourself. You need to sleep, you need to eat. And know that it's not going to be the same today, next year, or it's not going to be the same next year. What it is today. You are not going to keep feeling the same level of pain and angst. It gets better. And look for your community. Reach out. And I'm going to plug for Thoughtful transitions again, come to Thoughtful Transitions. We provide such a great place, a safe space for you. So thanks for listening.

John Dehlin [01:35:52] Thank you, Shandy, and thanks for joining us and for helping us arrange today's panel along with Amy's great work. All right, Tanner, you ready?

Shandi Hill [01:36:02] Ready as they'll ever be, I suppose.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] All right, bring it.

Shandi Hill [01:36:06] So it looks like I have a roommate coming home.

John Dehlin [01:36:09] Maybe I'll.

Shandi Hill [01:36:10] I'll skip this one and then come back to it, if that's all right.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Okay.

Shandi Hill [01:36:13] Noisy.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] No worries. All right, Jared and Brin, that. That. That means that you guys. Your guys are up. Do you have anything you want to share?

Guest [01:36:24] Closing statement. Well, when you said that, the first thing that popped into my mind, well, honestly, it was Gilmore Girls, but we're not gonna go there. So I was thinking of a concept in the law called restorative justice. And what restorative justice does is it gives several different mechanisms for helping an offender and a victim heal all the way. And the offender is the part that's really interesting to me. There's different ways of doing it. Sometimes they'll have an offender and the actual victim meet together and they mediate and they talk about their feelings and they get space to say whatever they want. Sometimes they'll have a panel or they'll have a proxy, a victim of a different crime meet with an offender of a different crime. Obviously, each one of those is different. You're not going to put a rapist in the room with the person they raped, but you might put a thief in the room with a person they stole from. And it's the same with this. Every relationship is different. Every thing that you want to get out of is a different. There's certain levels of toxicity Certain people you know of that are just going to be antagonistic and you think that differently. But the beauty of restorative justice is the same beauty that we have when those relationships work out. You talked about the silver lining on the other side and it is so much more than silver because the beauty is only as beautiful as the depth of the pain. So the harder it was to get over it, the better it is on the other side. You measure how toxic that person is for you or how much you love them and you decide how much to give them based on that. And once you do, assuming you come out on the other side, it's going to be so much better.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] Beautiful. That reminds me of Nelson Mandel and the truth and reconciliation stuff that went on in South Africa. But that's beautiful, Bryn. Thank you so much. Jared, I think you guys are freezing up for a second.

Speaker G [01:38:19] Yeah. Is our Internet connection coming through? We just got a notice that popped up. Can you hear us okay now?

John Dehlin [01:38:23] You're good?

Speaker G [01:38:24] Are you okay now? Okay, cool. Awesome. You know, final thoughts, final advice maybe is just to take things slowly. I think when you first are introduced to things that are new and they're very intriguing nature, I think it's natural to want to just throw it all out there. And for me and for our family process, it was a very long session. And so, you know, just advice is there's no reason to push it all out there super fast and sever these relationships. Take your time with them, think them through, think your own emotions and thoughts through. These relationships typically are, in my view, so much more valuable than. Anything else than your relationship with the two relationships, especially a husband and wife relationship, is incredibly valuable. And so that, you know, just take things slowly and no need to rush through your transition.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] Right at the end you broke up. But I'm just going to repeat something I think I heard you say, which was that the relationships are far more valuable than anything else you could talk about. Is that right?

Speaker G [01:39:49] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Beautiful. Thank you, Jared. You're right. Take it slowly. Take your time. Take months and years if you need to. Don't feel like you need to rush it. Tanner, you good? You want to come back on? All right, Tanner, sure.

Shandi Hill [01:40:03] I feel like I can only echo what everyone else has already said. Margi, what you said was just perfect and spot on the shandy. I really like your advice as well, Jared. I didn't get to hear everything you said because you're cutting out. Renault's really good. I think for me, what I would say is that there's just there's no right way to be an ex Mormon. And it's kind of the mindset we have to get out of is because we've our whole life we've been programmed to act in a certain way and we feel like when we leave, like we want that same sort of like easy life path with all these simple answers and we feel all this pressure to the Nephi complex to be the best ex Mormon that there ever was. And that's just not always the case. We're replacing the wheels of the train as it's going and it's not going to be easy and it's not going to always be perfect, it's not always going to be ideal. But I think if we can maintain a valuable perspective on the future, that'll help kind of guide our actions where we want them to go, rather than just being a total bloodbath at every turn. And sometimes it's hard to imagine a better horizon because the narrative of believing Mormons is that once you leave the church, your life is empty and dark and there's no reason to live, there's no happiness. And sometimes your closest relationships will try to impose that on you because that's the narrative they're living with. And so you'll even find the people who you thought should care most about you, dealing with you in ways that are really, really hurtful. And that is difficult. And I think if we recognize that and also recognize that there are alternatives. And for me, one thing that's been really hard for me is that I have a good relationship with my family, but it's not what it used to be because we used to be very, very intimate. We talk about all our deepest thoughts and desires and things. And now we talk about the weather. And that's not always easy and I miss that and I crave it. But I think community, maybe it was Shandy who mentioned that is so important. And that's why things like this, the Mormon transitions, all these things that we have going on right now are so important because it helps you to find those same sorts of support systems and that intimacy that we all crave. Because the Mormon community is really good at providing sense of intimacy and vulnerability and community. And to those of us who have grown up with that, we kind of, we do want that. And so you can tap into these resources that are available in social media and in person gatherings because they can really make all the difference in the world. The relationships that I formed with ex Mormons have just been totally life changing, life affirming, and have given me just a new zest and zeal for living. And so as you go through this, be gentle with yourself, be patient and have that positive vision of the future. Know that it's not always going to be ideal, but if you can think of what you want and try to visualize that, I suppose it'll make your day to day interactions that are sometimes a little more difficult, a little easier. So that's mine.

John Dehlin [01:43:16] Amen. Beautiful. Thank you, Tanner. I'll just do a quick shout out to Oasis. There are secular communities set up in Utah that function a lot like churches where you go on Sunday, you hear an inspiring talk, you have coffee, you meet friends, you connect. There's one in Cache Valley, there's one in Ogden area, Layton, one in Salt Lake, one in Utah county, and there's one in Park City. And you can just Google Utah, Oasis, Park City, Oasis, whatever. And you can connect with those communities. So check them out if you're interested in that. There's also Sunday assembly in Salt Lake City and also Mormon Spectrum is a great way to find community. Amy, I want to give you the final word either for those commenting on Facebook and for your own insider perspective, both.

Amy Grubbs [01:44:04] Okay, well first of all, I think ditto what everybody has said on this whole call the panelists and you and Margi. So thank you for that and just I'm going to be brief in the interest of time, but I think at the end of the day you really just need to be pay attention to what works for you. I think we get a lot of advice on social media from friends and family, people who have left and I think you just really need to pay attention to what works for you and what feels good. And that's going to change, you know, hour by the day, by the month, and that's okay. And just make sure you really pay attention to that and, and pay attention to what works for you and make sure you're always coming at every situation with love and respect. And I think you can never go wrong if you do that. So that's my two cents.

John Dehlin [01:44:50] Beautiful feedback. And it's so hard as Mormons to say, wait, what I matter is important. What I think is actually something I should pay attention to. How I feel matters. Since when did how I feel matters? And that's not everyone, but that can be. So that's wise and difficult advice. Alright, so it's time to wrap up. We've gone about an hour and 45 minutes. If you hate that, let us know. If you love it, let us know, we're really grateful for everyone who joined us online with your comments, who streamed it. We're also grateful for those who listen to the podcast. Many people sent us emails. We are going to follow up on those emails and discuss them on a future show. So don't think that if your email didn't get discussed this time, it's lost your voicemails, your emails, we will use them in the right spot, so count on that. This will not be the last time we discuss communicating with loved ones. It's going to be discussed in every episode going forward. So please send us your emails, please send us your voicemails, please make comments on the blog, please share this stuff to others, with others. Please let everyone know about this podcast either in Facebook Live or on the website. We would love you to help us get the word out about this. We had one person sign up as a donor between last episode and this one. You know, we're going to have thousands of people listening and only a handful of donors. Please go to Mormon Transitions and become a monthly donor if you can. If it's just $10 a month, $20 a month, if you can only afford $3 a month, if enough people do that, it can make this possible. We hope. This is something we try and do for a living. It takes a lot of effort to do the edits to do, the technology to pay for, the technology that we have to prepare for these episodes to get support from Amy and others, the infrastructure. We really need your support. So please, please sign up on mormontransitions.org to help us allow this to continue. If you donate, we'll continue. If you guys don't feel like it's worth donating to, we'll probably go find something else cool to do. So you'll decide ultimately. But thanks for everyone who does donate. I want to really thank our panelists. We really had a brilliant panel. Amy and Shandy, you guys are brilliant panelists, and I know you helped assemble this panel. So thank you for all your support in all the different areas. Amy, we couldn't do this without you and the Open Stories Foundation. Shandy, you're great. Shout out to thoughtful transitions. Bryn and Jared, you guys are brilliant. Will you guys. Can we have dinner sometime? And will you guys come back on the show?

Guest [01:47:51] We will. There might be a alcohol involved, so depends.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] Okay. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:56] Well, our love is totally conditional.

John Dehlin [01:47:58] Our love is unconditional. We don't judge you.

Guest [01:48:00] That's what I was thinking. And I was thinking, I'm gonna warn you ahead of time that that might be a thing so that you can X me out of your life.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] Now we're gonna practice unconditional love for you guys.

Guest [01:48:13] Come on over. Love was on.

John Dehlin [01:48:16] Thank you for joining us. You guys are great. Tanner, you want to do a quick shout out for Zelf on the shelf?

Shandi Hill [01:48:21] Yeah. Come to Zelph on the Shelf. We're a little. A little kind of niche in what we do. It's not always the eloquence of Margi and John, nor the level headedness, but we try to make it a little bit more fun and entertaining, especially for millennials and younger people who we try to take some of the edge off of the heavy stuff and keep it kind of light. So head on over. We have a YouTube channel where we do reactions to different LDS posts as well as some of our own creative projects and things.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] Thank you. Tanner, Samantha, and Connor, if you don't appear on Mormon Transitions within the next few weeks or months, I'm coming after you. I don't know where you live anymore because you moved, but I can find

Shandi Hill [01:49:12] out because Tanner, sorry about that. We'll have to get together soon for some karaoke.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] All right, let's do it. Check out our Mormon Transitions events if you want to join us. We've got a retreat coming up in Salt Lake City in March. We've got a workshop coming up in February. Lots more to come. Amy, any final notes or program notes or issues? We're good. All right, Love to you guys. Thanks for joining us. Thanks to my sweet, beautiful, brilliant wife, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:38] Look at you.

John Dehlin [01:49:40] Isn't she amazing? You're brilliant. Thanks to our panelists. We love you guys. And check us out online and we'll be talking again soon. Yep. Take care, everybody.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:56] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Transitions Podcast. Mormon Transitions Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. Please check us out at Mormon mormontransitions.org or on YouTube@YouTube.com mormontransitions to provide feedback or to participate on the podcast. Please email us@mormontransitionsmail.com Music for today's episode was generously provided by High Riot. Check them out@highriot.com.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] Oh, wild.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:32] How wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:50:36] Oh, wonder we have wild.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.