Welcome and Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 14, 2026 and we are just over the moon excited to have back with us on Mormon Stories Podcast, the Mindy Gledhill. Hey, Mindy.

Mindy Gledhill [00:00:16] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Welcome back.

Mindy Gledhill [00:00:17] I'm so happy to be back.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] For those of you who have longtime Mormon Stories listeners or longtime Mormons, you'll know Mindy. She is a singer, songwriter and. And we've had her on Mormon Stories at least three times before. The first time was when she was promoting an album called Hive Riot. The second one was when she was promoting an album called Rabbit Hole. We also had her on recently to talk about women related dust up that was happening. But this is her fourth, at least fourth time to be on Mormon Stories and she is. We are helping her or we are entreated to her sharing with us songs from two new albums of hers. I've got the vinyl albums right here. Of course, they're available on Spotify. We'll be talking about the concept of the albums, but it's the Phone Booth Sessions, this is volume one here, and it's the red one and then also the Phone Booth Sessions, volume two, which is the blue. I listened to both of these albums last night, this morning. And what we're going to be doing is what I love most is having a singer songwriter on to both share with us their journey. And in this case, it'll be kind of a little bit about her background for those, you know, for whom she's new, but mostly about her life since her last Mormon Stories interview. And what she'll be doing is interweaving her songs into today's narrative. And she has with us. Tell us who you have with us, Mindy.

Mindy Gledhill [00:01:59] I have Joe Corcoran here with me. Joe's a longtime collaborator, produced some of the songs on these projects and also mixed a large part of the project. So stoked to have him here.

Joe Corcoran [00:02:10] Happy to be here. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] And you also performed on the Rabbit Hole little episode. We did, yeah.

Joe Corcoran [00:02:17] So we. This is the second time now that I've been on.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Yeah, yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:02:20] Fans of the Rabbit Hole album. Joe actually produced that album as well.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] So, yeah. So this is super fun and so many fun things have happened. So. So I gave my intro. Mindy, what would your intro be for today?

Mindy Gledhill [00:02:34] Yeah, I am just really happy to be here because as I was telling you, it's been like maybe 11 years since my very first interview with you with Hive Riot, and that was maybe like a couple years into my deconstruction journey with Mormonism. And so it's cool to come back here, like over a decade later and kind of reflect on how that story has evolved and unfolded. And what I really am excited to talk about today is how inner child work and internal family systems has helped me really do so much healing through this journey more than any other therapeutic modality. And I think it's one that's maybe like, not as utilized as maybe it could be. So if it's helpful for anyone, if they're in the thick of it, this might be. Yeah, some. Some hope for you.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, normally, you know, people are brand new to Mormon stories and we're doing their whole Mormon arc from their childhood into their adulthood, and then the conflict and the resolution, all the faith crisis stuff. And that's not what today's gonna be about. There may be a little bit of a refresher, a Mindy Gledhill refresher, but. But what we're going to do is include the links to our former interviews with Mindy in the show notes. They're all absolutely worth your time. So if you haven't checked those out, pause this. Go watch my previous two interviews with Mindy, get to know those albums and then come back for part three. Or you can watch today and then go back and check out her earlier stuff. But we won't be digging as deep into like the deconstruction, and we're going to be focusing more on the healing and growth, which is nice because sometimes we get pretty heavy on Mormon stories podcast.

Mindy Gledhill [00:04:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Although I imagine your healing and growth may have had some heavy moments.

Mindy Gledhill [00:04:24] Yeah, super heavy. And you know, there's like a beauty in us sharing some of those stories to help us know we're not alone. So I really appreciate the people who've shared their stories and a lot that they've been through. And it's also nice to have moments of like, hope where, yeah, we don't have to get so heavy. So.

Growing Up Mormon in California

John Dehlin [00:04:47] So for those, you know, I told you right before we started, you know this, over half our audience has never been Mormon. And you know, there, there are die hard listeners that listen to every episode. But I found that for a lot of people, it's kind of like a three year window where they listen for three years, they get their processing out and then they move on.

Mindy Gledhill [00:05:03] That's cool.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] So for those who have never heard of you, don't know anything about you. So let's do the quick sort of Mindy Gledhill overview, just so that people have some of that early context.

Mindy Gledhill [00:05:16] Cool.

Mindy Gledhill [00:05:16] Let's get into it.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:05:17] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:05:19] All right. Where do you want to start?

John Dehlin [00:05:20] You're a winkle.

Mindy Gledhill [00:05:21] I'm a winkle. Yeah. My maiden name is Winkle. I took my husband's last name when we got married. So Mindy Gledhill is what I go by. But, yeah, I was born in the Bay Area in California, and when I was just a couple years old, we moved further north to Eureka, California. So all of my formative years were spent in Eureka. It's a couple hours south of Oregon on the coast of Northern California. Really magical childhood in so many respects, growing up on the coast and in the Redwoods, and I'm number eight of nine kids. My dad was, you know, from the time I was born, born always had kind of high callings in the church. So he was. When I was born, he was a bishop and then stake president throughout my childhood. And When I was 13, we moved to Madrid, Spain, where he was a mission president. So lived there from age 13 to 16, learned Spanish, and then instead of moving back to California, we moved to Provo after that. So in 20, or not 20. Whoa, let's go back to the 90s. In 97, I moved to Provo and went to Provo High my junior and senior year, and I have been there ever since.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] In Provo. Yeah. You're kind of a Provo fixture.

Mindy Gledhill [00:06:42] I'm a Provo fixture, except I'm actually in a couple weeks here. I'm moving to New York, New York City for a year. So New Yorkers. I need your. I need all your advice and all of the things I need to see and do while I'm there. Leave them in the comments.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Okay, perfect. Okay. So you. Yeah, but I mean, talk really quickly. You talk about this in our interview, but about you getting into music, byu, and becoming kind of a. Is Mormon pop star a thing? Is that. How would you describe that?

Career as a Mormon Pop Artist

Mindy Gledhill [00:07:16] I think as Mormon pop star, as you could get. I won a couple Pearl Awards. Those were like the Mormon Grammys back in the early 2000s.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] But at least one or two of your songs have been on, like Dancing with the Stars, right?

Mindy Gledhill [00:07:30] No.

Mindy Gledhill [00:07:30] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:07:31] So the very first part of my music career was, you know, in church music. My first album was a church album, and I was signed to a record label called Excel Entertainment. They did all of those movies like Charlie and Saints and Soldiers and. And then they kind of merged with Deseret Book and kind of took over their music department. So I Started to make my second album with them, but that's kind of roundabout. When this was in, like, 2004 or. No, 2005. Ish. That's. I hadn't really started deconstructing Mormonism yet, but I had realized, oh, I don't want to just make church music my whole life. I would like to make music, secular music, that people on the other side of the world in a totally different country could appreciate. So after we merged with Deseret Book, I started my next album with them and realized my contract had lapsed and asked them if I could payback for the album for the songs that we had recorded. And they were gracious enough to be like, yeah, we get it. Let's, you know, that's fine. So I paid for those songs, and they weren't really feeling like church songs anyway, so I took those and released my. I made my first independent album. And that was 2007 when that came out. And so since 2007 is called Feather in the Wind. Since 2007, I've been just doing indie. Indie pop music. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] So the other albums.

Mindy Gledhill [00:08:58] So Feather in the Wind. And then after that, in 20 2009, I. I was like, okay, I really want to experience what it's like to record outside of Utah and get outside of the bubble. So I was like, who is, like, doing music that I love right now? And I reached out to some different producers, and one of them who lived in la, same, Stuart Brawley, he. He was like, let's try a couple songs. Like, I really like what I'm hearing, and then we'll see where it goes. So I didn't know anybody in la, and so I, like, reached out to friends who, you know, and found friends of friends who let me sleep on their couches and on air mattresses. And for, you know, eight weeks on and off, I went down there and recorded an album called Anchor, which is, I think, my most known album. Most people that know my music, I think, yeah, they know the Anchor album. And that's where I met Joe for the first time. Joe was an engineer on the project.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] And Anchor's your biggest song on Spotify, is that right?

Mindy Gledhill [00:09:59] No, it's a song on that album. It's called I Do Adore. It's just a little song that Joe and I did on Ukulele and Keytar, like, one take, and somehow that's my biggest song. So y' all come on, like, listen to the other albums.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Mindy Gledhill [00:10:15] But, no, I'm super grateful. Um. So, yeah, that's where I met Joe for the first time. And after Anchor, I did a Christmas album again with. With Joe and Stuart called Winter Moon. And then an album in Nashville with a producer named Kayson Cooley called Pocket Flow Poetry. And Joe also on that album, all over it. And then after Pocket Full of Poetry came Rabbit Hole. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Hive Rite came after Pocket Full of Poetry. Yeah. Thanks for knowing my albums better than I do.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:10:55] Hive Riot was a fun side project. It's like a synth pop project. And my brother in law is an amazing pianist who studied at Juilliard. But I was like, what would happen if we put, like, some synths in your hands? And so, yeah, he's playing all these cool synths on that project. And it was. It was also a project to, like, kind of facilitate conversation, conversations around LGBTQ issues, because there was no encircle at that time. There was no, you know, the organizations that we knew of that were really talking about that conversation within the Mormon context. So we felt like that could be a music project to facilitate that. So after Hive Riot came Rabbit Hole, which Joe produced. And then after Rabbit Hole came the phone booth sessions, which brings us to now.

Mindy's Faith Journey and Deconstruction

John Dehlin [00:11:46] All right. And the parallel track would kind of be your Mormon faith journey. Maybe. Do you just want to share at a high level kind of how that's gone?

Mindy Gledhill [00:11:59] Yeah, totally. So my, like, shelf started to break. Well, I mean, there were early things for me. Like, the first time I went to the temple was really hard for me. I wasn't prepared for, like, the things that happen in the temple, but I was just like, no, I'm gonna. I'll have faith. You know, do. I did what we're taught to do, like, have faith and doubt your doubts. But then when I had my last child, this was in 2011, my shelf kind of started to break at that point. I think there was a lot of conversation going happening online around feminist issues, and this was kind of all new, like, terminology for me. And. And I started to see things from different angles. So really, the Internet, like, the rise of conversations on the Internet made me start to, like, open my eyes to things that I had been asleep to. And I remember starting to, like, peer into Mormon history that I had never looked at. And someone told me about, you know, Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger, and I was like, who is that? And I went and looked it up and only looked at, like, you know, Mormon scholars and their writings on it and journals from Pioneers. You know, I stayed away from anti Mormon literature as we were taught to stay away from. But even that, just learning the just raw history of it, that was it. Like, it really unraveled fast for me after that. And I remember after reading Fanny Alger's story, like, I had a physical reaction. Like, my. I remember, like, I was in the kitchen. It was after church one day, and I had read through her story, and my legs literally buckled. Like, I remember just, like, falling to the floor, like, my whole, like, belief system sort of unraveling. And it took a few years, like, to really pull things apart. And before I felt like I could really step outside of a, you know, stop attending church comfortably. Well, I don't know about comfortably, but none of it was comfortable.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] For those who don't know the Fanny Elder story, just super quickly. She was Joseph's helper, domestic helper in the home. Teenager, lived for several years with Joseph and Emma before the polygamy revelation was ever received. It's pretty well documented that Joseph had an affair with this young teenage girl who lived in his home. And then Oliver Cowdery, who was one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon, spoke publicly that Joseph had had an affair. And Joseph excommunicated Oliver for speaking up about this affair. And then later, Fanny's called Joseph's first plural wife. But most scholars believe that it was just an affair. So, I mean, and the power differential of a man, a married man with a young teenage girl live in the home, I imagine that's part of the buckling.

Mindy Gledhill [00:14:59] That was definitely part of the buckling. And one of the, like, saddest parts of that story to me was that it seemed that she was banned from Nauvoo after that. Like, this young teenage girl, after having, you know, the adoration of the prophet and this love story, like, with him suddenly, like, exiled. She got exiled and punished for it. Never.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she never made it to Illinois. Yeah. It's a sad story. So, okay, so you did some deconstruction after that.

Mindy Gledhill [00:15:32] Took years.

Mindy Gledhill [00:15:34] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:15:34] And it was, you know, like, my husband at the time was not on the same trajectory, so. So for about four years, you know, like, we, you know, made things work, and it wasn't always easy and grew. We've grown together in lots of really complex ways through the years. And, I mean, for me, I feel like at this right now, marriage is better than it's ever been for me. Yeah. In a really great place there. But, yeah, it's. We've had, you know, healing is not linear. It's a really messy line on a grass that Goes up and down and zigzags. And that's what it's felt like, Especially

John Dehlin [00:16:11] when two people are changing and trying to keep their marriage together. It's a lot.

Mindy Gledhill [00:16:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] Yeah. Okay, so you're. Do you even say your relationship to the church now? Is that even something you talk about?

Mindy Gledhill [00:16:24] Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, I'm pretty. Just agnostic. Like, I don't claim to know or have any answers to anything, but I feel like where I'm at right now is that life is really special. Even. You know, I like Neil DeGrasse Tyson's like, what? I can't. I'm not gonna remember the statistic, but it's like, you know, the chances of existing are what, like one in a trillion or some cr. Maybe more than that. I don't know. So to get to exist feels really special. Um, somebody in the comments leave what that statistic really is. Cause I'm not. I'm not remembering it, but it's just a crazy stat that we get to exist. So I feel like life is special, and there's so much about my Mormon upbringing that I really appreciate and love. I still feel like, you know, the. The word Mormon I know is really. I don't know when I should and shouldn't use it, because during the time I was in the church, we were taught to be so proud of that word and to. And so, like, my whole life, up until the point of leaving, it identifies with the word Mormon. So I hope in me using that word, I'm not offending anybody. I consider the Mormon people to be my people. Um, and, yeah, my. My culture, largely. Even though I'm not a practicing member and my beliefs have evolved.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Okay, beautiful. All right, well, that takes us up through Rabbit Hole.

The Phone Booth Sessions: Concept and Creation

Mindy Gledhill [00:17:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] So I. We haven't. We. When was Rabbit Hole released? About what year?

Mindy Gledhill [00:18:00] I think 2019.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Okay, so seven years ago.

Mindy Gledhill [00:18:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] So, Mindy Gledhill, what's been going on the past seven years?

Mindy Gledhill [00:18:07] Oh, well, like I said, you have a couple tattoos.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] You have tattoos. Show your tattoos. So something. Something's going on.

Mindy Gledhill [00:18:15] Look, well, now I hear anybody in the church can have tattoos, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] It's no longer like a. A sign of leaving the church.

Mindy Gledhill [00:18:24] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:18:28] So, yeah, like I was saying, growth is not linear. So for me, like, the past seven years, even since Rabbit Hole. Rabbit Hole felt like at the moment, like this is a real. Like, I'm really feeling like I'm coming out on the other side of this. And I was in so many ways. But, you know, it's like, if you're raised in the church or spent a significant amount of time in it, if you were a convert, there are things that will always be a part of your life, you know. And so, yeah, the last seven years is just like a continual ebb and flow of things rising up to the surface that I've needed to process and figure out and going back down. And some of those have been more turbulent than others. But I. In one, like, really turbulent kind of episode, I think I realized one of my biggest struggles was how I had outsourced so much of my own inner knowing and so much of my own power to other people and realizing that, like, that was happening because I was taught to do it my whole life. You know, I don't remember a time when I was ever taught to listen to my own inner voice. Like, it's the still small voice, but that belongs to the Holy Ghost still. It's an outside sort. Like, it's not you. And, you know, as a woman in the church, really never having any authority at all and always leaning on. Yeah, taught to consult the scriptures, your church leaders, the prophet, anyway, you know what I'm talking about. So I was in a moment where I was. I had given away too much of my power to outside sources and trying to figure out, like, what my whole belief system was after leaving the church. And I just really needed help. I was not in a great situation. I was in a pickle with friends and relationships. And so I sought the help of a therapist. Grateful to have been able to do that, because I know that's not available to everybody. And so I went to a therapist and I just said, I, you know, here's where I'm at, and I need help. Like, I'm at rock bottom right now. And she said, you know, I think something that would really help you is inner child work. And I was like, I feel like I've heard of that, but I don't really know what it is. And I was like, tell me more about this. So she's like, okay, next week when you come, I want you to bring me a bag of objects that you find around your house that remind you of your childhood. So I went home and got my little paper bag. It felt kind of like a fun elementary school activity to go around my house and pick little objects, inner child objects. And I brought them back to my therapist the next week. And as we examined each object and what, like, the symbolism behind it might be or why, I chose, like, started opening up this portal, like, to my creativity and to, like, memories. And I began to see each of these objects as a song and as, you know, song lyrics. And I think one of the reasons that that like, connected for me so well is because one of my favorite songwriting techniques as a songwriter is called object writing. And it's where you take an object and you use your five senses to like, really dig deep into the meaning of that object. So for example, one of the objects in my little paper bag was a heart shaped perfume bottle from my childhood. So I would go through, like, as in therapy, we would talk about this. But as a songwriter, object writing would be like, okay, what does this object feel like? Like what? You know, tactile things, textures, what does it smell like? That one's pretty obvious. But the, the purpose of it is to make you dig deeper than just the surface level senses. So where does it take you in your mind? Like, when I smell this little bottle of perfume, it smells like. It smells like my living room because I'm sitting next to my mother who gave me that perfume bottle. And we're sitting at the piano and we're playing a duet on the piano. And so it sounds like my childhood piano. This perfume bottle tastes like cinnamon because that's what was, you know, cinnamon sticks were boiling on the stove in the kitchen, this perfume bottle, you know, and so on and so forth with your senses. So sorry to like, you know, get elaborate on that, but as a songwriter, I take all of these word lists from my five senses and I start to create lyrics and, you know, songs out of them. So anyway, back to the therapist's office. As we're examining objects, I'm seeing them all as songs. And since I processed the world musically as a musician, like, it just really started to click for me. Like a lot of the things we were talking about and how so much of us as adults and the problems that we have and the patterns that show up in our lives happen because of the wiring that we experience from childhood. Like, all of the things we experience in childhood are built into our neural pathways and they show up again and again in our adult worlds. So learning about, like, what does any of my struggle now have to do with my childhood? Well, you know, like when I have this inner critic show up or when I have this voice that tells me someone else knows better than you. Like, you know, what does that person think about this? When that voice comes up that tells me, like, you don't know enough. Look to outside sources. I can now, like, better recognize those inner voices that were wired into me as a Child, you know, and when I can recognize them and pull them apart, it helps me be able to soothe those inner voices from a really compassionate place and to be able to talk to them and be like, hey, you. Hey, little part in there, like, I see you. I totally get why you don't feel confident in your own inner knowing and your own voice. And I talk to that inner child the way a loving parent would. This is a. This is what we call reparenting in internal family systems and in inner child work. And so I'm like, baby girl, like, in my mind's eye, I'm saying these things. I'm like, you are so beautifully wise. You are so confident like that. Those answers are in there. They're in you. You don't need to look to all of these outside sources. So anyway, that's kind of where this inner child work has helped me so much. So on my way home that day from the therapist's office, something really weird happened. Something really kind of wonderful and coincidental. But I stopped in an antique store on my way home, and the minute I walked in, I saw this phone booth. And since I was in, like, object symbolism mode from that therapy session, I walked into that phone booth and I, like, had this lightning bolt experience where I just was like, oh, I know what I need to do. I'm. I'm gonna buy this phone booth. I put it on layaway, I'm gonna bring it back to my studio, and I am going to call up my inner child and sit in there and ask her what she needs, ask her what she needed to say that maybe she never got to express and listen. And I'm going to tell her all the things that I wish she had heard from a loving adult. And I had loving adults in my life, but they're in a house of nine kids. It was hard to feel heard. So I bought the phone booth, put it on layaway, and when I had paid it off, I brought it to my studio and I lined it with acoustic foam and turned it into an isolation booth of sorts. And I got in there and I started recording the vocals to a lot of these songs.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Was it hot and stuffy?

Mindy Gledhill [00:26:54] It wasn't bad. I love really small, warm places. Yeah, sometimes there could be hot and stuffy, but it felt like an incubator. It felt cozy in there.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] I love it. So wait, are you saying all the songs on these two albums were recorded, Your vocals were recorded in the phone booth?

Mindy Gledhill [00:27:12] They were either, like, some of them didn't make sense to record inside of It. But they were either ideated or had their start in there, and some of them were definitely recorded inside of it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] Awesome. Okay. Beautiful. Okay, so what might be fun, we've selected a subset of the songs for y' all to perform, and I think the first one is Punctured Lungs.

Mindy Gledhill [00:27:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] And any stories you want to tell is a lead up, and then we can go into each song. And so we're going to go story song, story song for, I don't know, at least 10 songs, I think.

Mindy Gledhill [00:27:49] Cool. Yeah. So Punctured Lungs was actually a song that I wrote before this project that was kind of. I kind of wrote it in some of those tumultuous years, like, you know, between the Rabbit hole album and now just trying to find my footing still. And I record. Actually forgot about this other side project called Madame Bandit. So there's a version of this on a project called Madame Bandit. But when I wrote it, it was very much just an acoustic guitar song that I wrote with my son, my oldest son, Jackson. And I feel like it's a good precursor that sets up, like, the experience of, you know, being at rock bottom and really, like, starting to see your inner child in a compassionate way.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] Jackson went. Went to Berkeley, right.

Mindy Gledhill [00:28:37] He got accepted to Berkeley, and then he decided to just forge his own path on his own. So, yeah, he does music, but he's. He's doing it on his own terms.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Fun. I mean, that's like Juilliard, basically. Berkeley is a big deal. That's where Wayne sermon from Imagine Dragons.

Mindy Gledhill [00:28:51] Yeah, Wayne's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] One or two of his co band members went there, so.

Mindy Gledhill [00:28:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] Yeah, that's cool. All right. Okay, so we're going to do Punctured lungs.

Mindy Gledhill [00:29:01] Yeah, let's do Punctured lungs.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Okay.

Mindy Gledhill [00:29:24] Somebody pulled the rug out from beneath your feet. Oh, it's so sweet. Hi it just grin and get up. Kid with the golden stars voted most likely student in the yearbook to go far. But inside you're barely alive at the breathing is hard with holes inside your chest so you smile while choking on your own blight and singing a happy song with punctu it love. Always a step ahead Curating every minute like you're living in a magazine spray but sometimes, sometimes you close the door and tear out the pages screaming oh my God, I just can't take it anymore. But inside you're barely alive at best cause breathing is hard with hosing inside your chest so you smile while choking on your own blight and singing a happy song with p L. Our world's a stage. You've been taught to play a part, speak your lines and hide your heart. But inside you're barely alive at best Cuz breathing is hard with holes inside your chest so you smile once again in on your own bl and singing a happy song with punctured lung.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Beautiful. Can I clap?

Mindy Gledhill [00:33:18] Yay.

Holes in Faith and the Inner Child Journey

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Let me ask, what were the hole? You talk about holes?

Mindy Gledhill [00:33:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] What were some of the biggest holes that opened up for you when you're Mormon? World came apart and you know, that were the hardest to fill.

Mindy Gledhill [00:33:35] Yeah, totally. Well, I think one of the first big ones was like, contemplating an afterlife. Like, that was a big one for me at first. Like, well, you know, if there's no afterlife, like, what is there? And that sort of opened up this big gaping hole of like, yeah, like, what even is life? What is my belief system? It was totally disorienting and. And I. It made me feel broken, like, too, as a person. Like, I felt like I had, like, raised my kids with this very, you know, specific narrative and belief system. And I felt suddenly like I'm a fraud as a parent to like, have given you all of this and suddenly like, rescind it, you know? Um, so, yeah, it was really terrifying at first and, you know, felt very much like falling through a rabbit hole with no bottom. Like no end in sight. That's what it felt like in my heart and in my soul. And. And I even came to a point where I was like, you know, suicidal ideation was like a part of that journey for me. Like, I felt like, it seems a lot more comforting to die right now than to live. So. Yeah, those were some of the holes.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] Yeah. Like, Mormons, when they get married in the temple, the contract is a commitment to the church. Right. So it can threaten the foundation of your marriage. And then there's spirituality and there's morality and there's meaning and purpose.

Mindy Gledhill [00:35:13] Yeah, purpose.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] And then there's the afterlife and then there's community. Right, and community.

Mindy Gledhill [00:35:18] Yeah. Another huge hole there too, to, like, if I can be truthful about my story and what I'm going through, who am I going to lose? You know, that was a big source of anxiety and a big hole. And when I did, like, tell my story and tell my truth. Yeah. There were definite people who didn't hold up, you know, as friends. And that was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] So you lose friends, you lose friendships. Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:35:45] Use trust. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] It's really like everything falls to the floor. It's like you have armor and then all the armor falls to the floor and you're naked. And then you've gotta pick up the pieces and figure out. And so I think this leads to the next song. Like a therapist can say to you, or a spouse or a friend. Or you can say to yourself, like, okay, what do you want? But if you've been raised for 30 or 40 years to. To not pay attention to your inner voice, to not prioritize even knowing who you are or what you care about, how do you even know where to start? How do you even know who you are? Right.

Mindy Gledhill [00:36:23] Yeah, totally. And that's kind of where this project came in for me. As I started to learn this about myself. I had to start from zero, from the very beginning. So to go back and examine my inner child from the very beginning. And pull apart, like, the programming that was in there, the programming that was not serving me, and the programming that was worth keeping. So, yeah, like, going back, I had to ask myself, you know, how. What would it be like if I could meet little me face to face? How would I want her to feel? And that's where this next song comes in.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Okay, so this is Please to Meet Me on Volume one, right? Yeah, Volume one of the phone booth sessions.

Mindy Gledhill [00:37:17] If I could make magic I'd have wings to fly. Through the television. And travel back in time if I could pause the tape to place the movie of my life I'd be pleased to meet me I'd stop and say hello Kiss my friend forehead Sweetly, gently Hold me close Love myself completely Never let me go 100 guarantee I'd be so very pleased to meet me. Episodes of laughter. Seasons full of grief Swinging from the rafters Bandages on knees if I could pause the tape to place the child inside the screen I'd be pleased to meet. I'd stop and say hello Kiss my forehead sweetly, gently hold me close. Love myself completely. Never let me go A hundred guarantees I'd be so very pleased to meet me and every year moves faster than the one before Ever faster forward Till it's too late to ignore so before they make the symphony crescendo in the score before the film's a tangled mess Of a ribbon on the floor I'd be pleased to meet me. I'd stop and say hello. Kiss my forehead Sweetly, Gently hold me close. Love myself completely. Never let me go A hundred guarantees I'd be so very pleased to meet me.

Inner Child Work and Reconnecting with Young Mindy

John Dehlin [00:41:25] Beautiful as a Christian. You know, especially for people who don't have good upbringings, this narrative of God and Jesus can be so beautiful. Of like, okay, you may not have had the best parents, but there's a loving Heavenly Father and a loving savior that will hold you in their arms and love you completely. And that is sacred to so many people. And, like, there seems to be this incredible power of, wow, what if you don't need some father figure or some elder brother who's divine to feel whole? What if you can rise up and provide that to yourself?

Mindy Gledhill [00:42:07] Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of this process was discovering that really, for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] Why, like, a Christian might say, well, you've got God and Jesus. Why would you even need to be that for yourself? You're trading down, you know what I'm saying?

Mindy Gledhill [00:42:27] Again, I think it's just like giving all of yourself away to outside authority figures. And also, as a woman in the church, to always look to authority, to be male, whether it's God or Jesus. And I know in Mormon theology we teach about a heavenly mother, but at least in my upbringing, it was sort of like, off limits to talk about. And the narrative that I was talking about taught around that was that heavenly mother is so sacred that heavenly father doesn't want us to talk about her. So it was this, you know, I. I didn't realize at the time, like, the level of benevolent sexism around that teaching, you know, that this. This mother figure wasn't powerful enough to be able to stand on her own. She needed the protection of, you know, from anyone talking about her or thinking about her or considering her from this male deity.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] One of my favorite newer interpretations of the New Testament is I think I. Yeah, Eckhart Tolle talks about it, but others do as well. This idea that Jesus himself said, the kingdom of God is within, and that can mean that it can be interpreted as an invitation from Christ to do the exact type of child work you're talking about.

Mindy Gledhill [00:43:43] Yeah, yeah, that's one interpretation. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] Not that you need that invitation, but I mean.

Mindy Gledhill [00:43:48] Right. So, yeah, some people might see this and be like, well, I've looked at it that way this whole time, and that's fair.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Yeah, yeah. But for you, some people might be able to look at child work and go, oh, that sounds corny, or whatever for me. Has this been deeply. This part?

Mindy Gledhill [00:44:06] I mean, it did feel at first like, yeah, parts of it felt corny and a little bit like, so what am I supposed to do? Just, like, talk to myself? Like, it felt like there are. Am I supposed to hear voices in there? And so, yeah, it wasn't always comfortable at first to, like, consider how this could work or Help me. So I had to, like, one thing that really did help me was, like, asking myself, okay, if it feels intimidating to do this work or to talk to, like, a little voice in there, can I imagine a safe place in my mind where I could meet my inner child? And the place that surfaced for me was it's a real place from my childhood. It's called the Edge of the World. And where I grew up in the redwoods, it's like mountains that kind of fall into the ocean with lots of beautiful trees. And so there was this place called the Edge of the World up in the mountains. It's this big rock that, like, jutted out over this drop off. And it doesn't, like, inherently seem like a safe place to go in your mind, especially because I would go there at night with my. My older teenage sister. I would go there with, like, her teenage friends. And I don't know if I was being babysat or what, but I felt cool. I felt cool going with all the older kids to the edge of the world to look at the stars. And so for me, it is like this safe place of feeling accepted and cool among people who are older than me. And also there's like a metaphor for me and being at the edge of everything, you know, and trusting, you know, because I think some of the biggest transformations that I've had in my life have been where I've been at the edge of all of my knowledge and have had to, like, you know, take a leap to, like, figure out what is beyond this. So this is. This next song is called the Edge of the World.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Beautiful.

Mindy Gledhill [00:46:10] Hear the grass grow Feel the clouds roll by Silky soft Alike A dandelion Sigh when you hates Got your heart in the death grip Headlock choke hold Bind Confine me at the edge of the world it's the safest place you know after dark in the light of the Little Dipper's glow Where you send out all your secrets Like a paper airplane show From a land at the edge of the world. Are you lonely there inside your mind Full of white walls and clocks that don't keep time when your head's got your heart in the death grip Headlock choke hold Find Confine me at the edge of the world it's the safest place you know after dark in the light of the Little Dipper's flow Where you sent out all your secrets Like a paper airplane show From a ledge at the edge of the world. At the edge of the world it's the safest place you know After Dark in the light of the Little Dipper's glow where you send out all your secrets like a paper airplane show. From a ledge at the edge of the world. Mm.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] I was thinking about that metaphor because you're talking about a childhood and safety. But from a parent's perspective, there's no more dangerous place than a kid being at the edge of a cliff.

Mindy Gledhill [00:49:17] But, yeah, I'm sure that's how my parents felt watching me go through this.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] But as you're at this point in your narrative where you're an adult, where everything's fallen apart, you're kind of at the edge of this. Coming out of a faith crisis, it can be just as scary. So as you're channeling the child at the edge of a cliff who feels safe, you're also peering into your future, having left the church and trying to figure out how dangerous or safe it's gonna be. Like. I love the parallel metaphors there. I don't know.

Mindy Gledhill [00:49:47] Cool. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] This might be an emotional question. I don't know. But as you connected with young Mindy.

Mindy Gledhill [00:49:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] What are some of the traits? How would you have described her?

Mindy Gledhill [00:50:05] Yeah, thanks for asking that. I mean, she's super trusting, and there's a. There's a beauty in that. And there's also. I think it kind of ties into the part of me that I've had to, like, give permission to trust herself, so. Super trusting in other people. And I. And she loves people easily, so there's, like, a lot of beauty in some of those things. But also. Yeah. There's been some hard lessons learned with some of those things as well, so. Yeah. And super creative, imaginative, and. And I think a lot of those things. I feel those still live in me. I think there's aspects of her, though. Yeah. Again, that we're never, like, encouraged to have a voice or a strong opinion. And if you know me now, you might be like, what? You've got plenty of strong opinions, but I've had to work to develop those, to have the confidence to express those. Yeah, that's come with a lot of, like, you know, therapy and thought and intention.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] So the parts of little Mindy that got stifled or shut down or weren't allowed to be developed, one is just using her voice.

Mindy Gledhill [00:51:26] Yeah. Like, your voice doesn't matter. Your voice holds no weight. You don't have any authority. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] So when I was listening to Little Miss Moon Boots, I was thinking about. Is that about you as a child?

Mindy Gledhill [00:51:50] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:51:51] Little Miss Moon Boots is a song that's about. I mean, I'M one. Like I said, I'm one of nine kids, number eight. So kind of came at the end and I think in a home, you know, where there's that much going on, it's. I don't fault my parents, you know, for times where I was literally forgotten, you know, as a child at like sporting events or things. And it would be so hard, like even with my three kids, it's hard to keep up with everybody. Right. So. But also like, you know, the reality of those things happening has like had its effect on me as a person. So feeling forgotten in addition to like, you know, your voice as a woman and a child in this organization doesn't really matter. Yeah, I've had to learn how to go back and reparent myself. So that term is like the act of. In your mind's eye or maybe even out loud, if that helps you. Speaking to yourself the way a loving parent would. Showing up for yourself the way a loving parent would. So where there were occasions where I maybe felt forgotten or was forgotten, for me to be able to go back and celebrate little me has been really important. One like, you know, event that was particularly hard for me was my high school graduation. I remember my, my dad had. He went out of town and my mom, she ended up like showing up to watch me, you know, walk. And I'm. I'm not sure if she just wasn't feeling well or whatever the reasons were, but then left. And so after, after graduation, I just remember like this slow motion experience of seeing all these kids around me with their families, you know, taking pictures, having a lay put over them, you know, whatever being celebrated and I was alone and I had worked so hard like to, you know, I graduated with a near 4.0. If it hadn't been for AP physics, that one got me. But with high. I graduated with high honors. I had a solo in the choir that nobody was there to hear.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] What was the solo?

Mindy Gledhill [00:54:13] It was like. It was a gospel song. Get ready for the dinner. I don't know. But yeah, it was a. So I just felt like so much of my life and the validation that I got growing up was from getting good grades and achieving, you know, like being on the honor roll any. And feeling in that moment like no one is here for any of this. That was a hard one for me. I took myself out to dinner that night and paid for my graduation dinner, paid for my senior portraits, set up my own portraits, things like that. I think at that point, after raising nine kids, I'm sure my parents were Tired. So for me to go back and celebrate moments where I felt alone, in moments that should have been celebrated has been really important work for me.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Okay?

Mindy Gledhill [00:55:05] That's where Little Miss Moon Boots comes from.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] Love that story. Thank you for sharing.

Mindy Gledhill [00:55:17] Little miss Moon Boots Daisy Dukes, you got your ice cream cone with the triple scoops and with no pretense. The less sense you make the more that you make perfect sense. Little miss Moon boots hard up gold? You got your bookshelf full of stories that you've never told? You gotta speak your truth and play the songs you put on hold. Never mind the busy people who did not know how to notice and appreciate you. But who's to say that it's too late to celebrate you? Celebrate you now? Celebrate you with the love so proud. Say it louder. I celebrate you now. Little miss Moon boots Cutie pie, you got your 3D movie glasses and I hope you know that you were born to be the star of your own self. Oh, never mind the busy people who

Mindy Gledhill [00:56:51] may not know how

Mindy Gledhill [00:56:54] to notice and appreciate you. But who's to say that it's too late to celebrate you? Celebrate you now? Celebrate you with the so proud. Say it louder. I celebrate you now? Never mind the busy people who did not know how to notice and appreciate you. But who's to say that it's too late to celebrate you? Celebrate tonight now to celebrate you with the love so proud. Celebrate now, Celebrate you now? Celebrate to.

Mindy Gledhill [00:58:12] Did you wear moon boots as a kid? Yeah, totally. I own a pair now. I've got some rainbow moon boots in

John Dehlin [00:58:20] my closet that the. Hearing the story before you hear the song just adds so much more meaning and depth. That was awesome.

Mindy Gledhill [00:58:29] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] It's kind of. It's kind of hard to imagine. I mean, you know, someone who's so accomplished not feeling celebrated by the time they graduate, but that's the Mormon way. Nine kids. How's a parent gonna be able to make any kid feel truly celebrated?

Mindy Gledhill [00:58:49] I get that. And I know that it's, like, easy to look back at our painful things as kids and, you know, and say that must have been really hard for our parents. And it truly was. And it's also okay to. To grieve that, you know, and to. And doing this work has also, like, one unexpected byproduct has been that I am able to now more easily see my parents as their own beings, you know, like, separate from their role as mom or dad. And to. And I've practiced, like, really envisioning them as littles, you know, as kids and to Contemplate, you know, all of their wiring that they grew up with. And I really feel like they, they did better than what they were given, which is the hope of every generation. Right. That you'll, you'll be able to provide like better support, love everything than you got. And I think they've done that. And it's been easy, helped me to forgive some things that were hard for me to forgive.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Amen. And yeah. Yeah, like you do have. We do have permission to grieve, regardless of how much everyone was trying. And I'm sure sometimes your parents didn't feel celebrated either, right?

Mindy Gledhill [01:00:06] 100%.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] Especially your mom, probably.

Mindy Gledhill [01:00:07] 100%, yeah. In their own childhoods and adulthoods. Totally.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] But that doesn't take away from the.

Mindy Gledhill [01:00:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] How much you needed that, you know, at the time.

Mindy Gledhill [01:00:17] I think I also want to add, I have a sister who is a somatic therapist. She does like trauma informed therapy and she has taught me that like also you don't have to forgive bad things that happen to you or painful things like, you know, in order to like move on. Some things that happen to people are just like unforgivable, you know. So that I guess I also want to just clarify. It's not like my goal is say, well, once you forgive, you can move on. And that's actually, that's not it. But it unexpectedly has helped me to feel that I, I can do that in my situation.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] Love it. All right, well, where does your story go next?

Songs About Numbness, Longing, and Awakening

Mindy Gledhill [01:01:05] Let's see. You might need to tell me.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] Living the dream.

Mindy Gledhill [01:01:08] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] Okay.

Mindy Gledhill [01:01:09] So moving on to volume two. So you know, when I wrote these songs, like I did not expect to write two albums worth of music. I think just so much kind of came out of my soul from, from doing this work that it kind of naturally just happened. So volume one kind of naturally is sort of this chronological, like moving through my younger childhood years. And then volume two, I feel like goes into a little more of the adolescent years and kind of some of the tumultuous things that happen in those years for a lot of us. So let's kick it off with Living the Dream. I think this song is a co write with some friends, Andrew Beck and Bly Wallentine. Just want to make sure they get credit and all the credits are in the albums if you buy them. Like lots of these are co writes and collaborations with wonderful musicians. But anyway, Living the Dream. We actually wrote this about like the struggle of being a musician in today's age. But when we wrote it, I was kind of in the middle of writing this project, and I was like, wait, I feel like this could really apply, you know, to, like, what it feels like to be an adolescent and to be. I don't know, I just feel like, as a Mormon kid, like, there were so many things that I tried to. To do, to be ye, therefore perfect, you know, and never could quite feel like I got there. You know, it's like an unattainable thing. But to be constantly taught that that's what you should be and that's what you should strive for, knowing you never can be, it can feel really conflicting. So here we go.

Mindy Gledhill [01:02:59] Still water frozen on pies Numb the owl that tug of war between my teeth and jaw Flat soda hosing on

Mindy Gledhill [01:03:17] my stomach

Mindy Gledhill [01:03:19] Man, I'm always dreaming But I ain't living the dream. Rock bottom, drinking up the drs Struggling to break free But I'm here Stuck inside this egg buck and naked Choking back the scream Man, I'm always dreaming But I ain't living the dream. I wanna be born on a ton Tuesday in May with leaves in my hair and somebody will say We've been waiting for you to arrive and everyone's clapping and chanting my name While dancing in circles out under the rain and nobody knows I'm afraid. And tormented Biting on my tongue Forcing smiles and pleasantries While taste in my own blood but don't sweat it I'll take one for the team I guess I'll keep on dreaming But I ain't living the dream Guess I'll keep on dreaming But I ain't living the dream.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Nice. Beautiful. Love that one. These are great.

Mindy Gledhill [01:05:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] Yeah. You don't disappoint. I was telling you guys, this feels like the NPR's Tiny Desk Concert. Welcome to Mormon Stories. Tiny Desk Concerts.

Mindy Gledhill [01:05:48] You might have another lawsuit on your hands.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] Oh, right. If I rebrand, did I just find Highlight someone's trademark? Oops. Okay, we're not that.

Mindy Gledhill [01:05:58] I was kidding.

Mindy Gledhill [01:05:58] Yeah, we're not doing that.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] It's satire. It's metaphor. Fair use. It's fair use. All right. Okay. We're five down, five to go. Cool. So is it fair to say the first album is more childhood and then the second is more adolescence?

Mindy Gledhill [01:06:17] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] Okay.

Mindy Gledhill [01:06:19] And the adolescent years were way harder for me. Like, there were a lot more walls there with teenage me, teenage Mindy. And I think a lot of us could probably relate to that. So. Yeah, that's like when I had moved to Spain at that point and was living in the mission home and. Yeah. Experiencing all of the things that teenagers do, like, you know, I think in our teenage years we start to question, like, our belief systems a little more and what's real and what's not. And being. Contrasting being in like a hyper religious environment every day to like, just my school, my high school in Spain, there's a pretty big contrast there in Spain. Like, the legal drinking age at that time was 16 years old. So on the weekends, all my friends go to the discothecas. And yeah, it was hard to be a Mormon kid in that environment. Also, like, you know, Spain is predominantly Catholic, so being a Mormon kid amongst Catholics made me really have a, you know, have those questions for the first time of, like, if my Catholic friends, you know, believe that their religion is the true religion and my people believe that my religion is the true religion, whose is the true religion? So those were like the early moments of those questions in my teenage mind. Lots of questions here in the teenage years for the first time. And lots of mixed messages. Honestly, for teenagers, no matter what background you have or you grow up in, especially now with social media, I mean, it's a tough time. So I was in the middle of all of that and, and going through like, you know, the. The church teachings of like, be as a woman, especially, like, be meek, you know. And then on the other hand, like, I played sports. So, you know, the narrative was like. But be aggressive. Like, also, like, you know, be thin and also be strong, you know. And so lots of. Lots of mixed messages, especially in the context of religion. So that kind of like, is where this next song comes in. It's actually that a friend of mine, his name's Paul Jacobson, he pitched it to me for this project when he knew I was writing about all of this and was kind enough to, like, let me tweak the song with him and add some of my own flavors to it. But it's meaningful to me that he was the one to do that because Paul is, from what I understand, an active member of the church. And so I guess I wanna bring that up because I wanna say, like, me coming today is not to say, like, now I'm on the good track and everybody who's practicing, you know, religion is not. That's actually not at all. In fact, that's one thing that I feel like I'm really at so much peace about in my heart, is that I don't have all of the answers. And I. I'm certainly not here to say that, you know, other people that claim they have answers, I don't know, I'M not here to say who's right and who's wrong, I guess is what I'm saying. So it was meaningful to me to have someone collaborate with me who is a practicing member and to be able to still say, I see you in your experience and I validate your experience and I'm here for it.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Beautiful.

Mindy Gledhill [01:10:01] Vixen be saint, Eat a sandwich loose weight Take and pack and put punch. Everything and nothing all at once, all, all at once, all at once A beautiful blank slate A rocket ship and a fire spade all these voices running through my head with combat boots and black hearts painted red Me and everything Everyone will grind his soul the sand so honey when you cry I think I understand. I get pummeled by the shoulds

Mindy Gledhill [01:11:28] they

Mindy Gledhill [01:11:29] leave me bloodied in the woods Try to catch em can't keep up Try to ditch them but they won't budge, they won't budge, they won't budge. You can't please everyone. But here I am thinking maybe just this one song. These voices running through my head with Combat B.O. black Hearts painted red Being everything to everyone will grind your soul the sand so honey when you cry

John Dehlin [01:12:30] I think

Mindy Gledhill [01:12:30] I understand I think I understand I think I understand I think I understand. And I don't understand anyone with all the answers who treat their every thought like it was holy scripture Born in a burning bush Born in a rapture

Mindy Gledhill [01:13:00] Born to wear a crown and the

Mindy Gledhill [01:13:02] great here after all I don't understand. I don't understand all these voices running through my head with great big combat boots and black hearts painted red Happy and everything Everyone will grind your soul the sand so honey when you cry I think I understand I think I understand I think I understand

Joe Corcoran [01:13:49] I think

Mindy Gledhill [01:13:49] I understand I think I understand understand Think I understand I think I understand I think I understand.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] These are all. They all, all have hooks. All these songs have hooks. They're catchy. These are great to hear. Your melodies are. I always love a good melody and great lyrics and you always deliver.

Mindy Gledhill [01:14:20] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Yeah. Yeah. This is great. Okay. So, yeah, I love that you're capturing the mixed messages we get and how hard it is to form an identity when in so many ways, our identities are kind of already formed for us. Right?

Mindy Gledhill [01:14:40] Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it's been important to be able to go back and tell that younger version of myself, like, hey, I understand. You had a lot thrown at you, a lot of expectations and mixed messages, and you did the best you could. In fact, you did amazing.

Certainty, Mission Life, and Finding New Answers

John Dehlin [01:14:59] Some people say one of the features of a High demand religion is certainty, and the song's about understanding. But I'm guessing your levels of certainty are quite low now. Except I think your satisfaction with it all might be higher. So how can you increase your satisfaction when you're lowering your certainty?

Mindy Gledhill [01:15:22] That is a great question. And again, like, that's one of the things that was most terrifying for me at the beginning of my deconstruction. Not knowing what comes next after this Life. Yeah. The uncertainty of, like, what's at the edge of everything. I know. And I was such at a loss for what to do with that at first. It just was such a hopeless feeling. And, you know, through it all now, I actually find great comfort in uncertainty and, like, not having to have all the answers figured out to, like, life's biggest mysteries and questions. I am not, you know, it's taken a lot of work, I guess, to get here, but that's how I feel. I just feel. Yeah. I feel at peace with not knowing. It almost makes life feel more special. It's like if. If this is it, if this is all we have and it ends and everything goes black at the end. Wow. Like, I want to make this mean everything and be so special.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] Amen. I was having the thought the other day. On the one hand, yes. To all the respect for any believers out there and their beliefs. I was having the thought the other day that anybody that tells you where you came from or why you're here or where you're going, they probably want something from you.

Mindy Gledhill [01:16:46] That's. Yeah. Expound a little bit. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] Well, just. I mean, I was just thinking about, like. And this may be going too deep, but, like, to tell Native Americans that they're Lamanites, or to tell African Americans that they had a curse from Cain, or to tell women that they're supposed to be X, Y, or Z. What comes with that? It's because you want them to fit a certain role or a place in the system you have developed. But who can really know? Who can tell Mindy who Mindy was before Mindy came to Earth? Who can tell Mindy what Mindy's purpose is here on Earth, and who can tell Mindy where she's going when she dies? Who would even have the hubris or the. It takes a lot of hubris to be able to say, let me tell you. Let me tell you all about your life for you. You know what I mean?

Mindy Gledhill [01:17:36] Yeah. And one of my greatest joys in this whole experience of deconstruction has been to write that story for myself and to Claim that for myself. Yeah. And to not be living somebody else's story anymore.

John Dehlin [01:17:52] Yeah. So you've had to rewrite. You probably haven't rewritten where you came from. Right. Like, that's. I'm guessing.

Mindy Gledhill [01:17:59] Yeah. Again, like, I find comfort in not, like, having to have that answer.

John Dehlin [01:18:03] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [01:18:04] I'm just, you know, there's. I. I feel like I've been able to figure out, like, how to. To be happy, you know, and none of us are ever always happy like that, but to feel like, you know, like, I can find my way back to an equilibrium and peace, you know, pretty regularly I can do that without having this story of where I came from or where you're going or where I'm going. And. And I take comfort in that. Like, hey, none of us actually really knows the answers to that. Like, not even the world's top scientists, you know? No. So we're all in this together. There's, like, actually a feeling of togetherness in some respects that none of us actually really knows those answers.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Yeah. And for me, when I had the whole of spirituality develop, I had to come up with some replacement, and I found kind of secular Buddhism and Eckhart Tolle, and they both also invoke Christ in this idea that focusing on the past and the future is usually a lot less useful than just focusing on the present moment. That's where all your power is, right?

Mindy Gledhill [01:19:14] Yeah. All we have is now.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] Yeah, for sure. All we have for sure is now. Right.

Mindy Gledhill [01:19:19] And we're here, and I'm honored to be in this now with you both.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] Amen. Amen. All right, so Prismatic. I did not. That's the next song I was curious what to learn. Any background you want to share with this song?

Mindy Gledhill [01:19:34] Totally. Yeah. So when I lived in Spain, I, you know, living in the mission home and already coming from a home that was really. We had a lot of rules growing up, I would say. I'm always surprised when I hear other people's, like, upbringings in Mormonism and the people that say, like, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, you couldn't drink caffeine or you couldn't do X, Y, Z. Like, and I'm just like, what, watch TV on Sunday? You couldn't watch rated R movies? I'm just like. I mean, those are all very, very alive, real rules in my home. And I. Yeah, I understand and appreciate parents that actually cared about having rules for me, because I know there's parents that don't, you know, provide any structure for Kids and that can also be damaging. But anyway, there were a lot of rules and living in the mission home was like next level. And so when I lived in Spain, like going out to these discothecas with my friends on the weekends and like experiencing like the liberation of what it felt like to be on a dance floor for the first time. Like it was an interesting juxtaposition to my day to day life. And it's kind of where I really felt like this the beauty of, of like feeling alive in my body for the first time because my, my body was so controlled and restricted in so many ways. Like what I. There were rules about what I wore. And yeah, we all know what that's like within Mormonism. So Prismatic is really. And I had to hide all I felt like I had to hide, you know, me going out to the discothecas from my parents. So it was very like me going in secret, like I hey, I'm gonna go spend the night at so and so's house. Then we go out to the discotheque until 4am you know, I don't know why, like as a teenager I was never curious about drinking or drugs. I, I just wasn't. So I didn't even go for any of that. It was really just like, you know, to feel accepted among my peers and feel like I had a friends and also like that dancing, like feeling like I could be alive in my body with no one judging me. So Prismatic is really about me going back in my mind and telling that young teenager like, that's so cool. I love that you feel that way. You should feel that way. You should be able to feel alive in your body and reclaim that. And you never had to hide that. So let's do it.

Mindy Gledhill [01:22:32] Hiding in between the shadows. Trying not to wake the house. But somewhere in between the battles of my mind and I find myself. They tell me I shouldn't mind my mayonnaise. Careful not to cause a scene but watch me when the ceiling shatters. I'm prismatic. Shining like a moon mirror ball of light. Cinematic Reflecting like the Milky Way at night. Wow. When my heart keeps beating like an open door. I'm a diamond on the dance floor. Prismatic. How, how. I have wandered through my daydreams. Reclaiming pieces of my soul. Mosaic of a million moonbeam. Fragments of a greater whole. You could try and turn the lights out. Go ahead and pull the plug. All the darker, all the brighter I become prismatic. Shining like a mirror ball of light. Cinematic reflecting like the Milky Way at night. Why will my heart keep Keeps beating like an open door? I'm a diamond on the dance floor Prismatic. Try to understand you could never hold a rainbow in your hand I belong to no no one. Catch me if you can Make a wish and let me go Prismatic Shining like a mirror ball of light Cinematic Reflected like a milky way at night wow. My heart keeps beating like a open door I'm a diamond on the dance floor prismatic.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] I love trying to picture 16 year old Mindy in a Spanish discotheque dancing till 4am you didn't have the benefit of bumpin Mormon steak dances in Spain at 16?

Mindy Gledhill [01:25:57] No, there were like a few things like that, but I.

John Dehlin [01:26:02] Not like we had. I'm dying to know. This is putting you on the spot. Did you have a couple favorite songs to dance to at that age?

Mindy Gledhill [01:26:12] Yeah, I loved everything, but the girl was an artist in the techno era.

Mindy Gledhill [01:26:20] And I miss you like the deserts miss the rain.

Mindy Gledhill [01:26:25] That song. Yeah. I mean techno was very much not just like in the dance clubs, it was like a very big genre in Spain. But yeah, like, I mean, my formative years, like teenage years were like very much in Spanish culture. So like some of my favorite artists were. There was an artist named Rosanna. I loved her music. Eros del Silencio. Here's the silence.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] It's like Erasure and you know, Depeche Marovo.

Mindy Gledhill [01:26:56] I did have like, we did have those. But yeah, during those like particular years in Spain, like. Yeah, I mean a lot of the music was, you know, European and Spanish.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Where's Luis Miguel from?

Mindy Gledhill [01:27:09] I don't. He's not from Spain, but he has a song I really love. I can't remember what country he's from though.

John Dehlin [01:27:16] Okay. Fun, fun. All right, well, this is great. So the next song you have listed is at least is an homage to one of my favorite songs of all time. I like David Bowie and Ground Control for Major Tom. What's the official name of the song?

Mindy Gledhill [01:27:37] It's called maybe Major Tom, your song.

John Dehlin [01:27:40] But what. What's the David Boyes song?

Mindy Gledhill [01:27:41] Oh, Space Oddity.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] Space Oddity.

Mindy Gledhill [01:27:42] Yeah, Space Oddity.

John Dehlin [01:27:43] So I should know it, but I

Mindy Gledhill [01:27:45] know it's hard cause it's not a lyric in the song.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] Yeah, yeah, but I mean, it is an homage, right?

Mindy Gledhill [01:27:51] Yes, it is an homage to that song in a lot of ways. It came about like, like I said during those years, I started questioning like for the first time, like, you know, if my religion is the one true religion. But Catholics believe theirs is the one true religion. And I also was going to a high school. It was a private school school that the church set up for the kids of mission presidents to go to. It was owned by a family from Iran. And so a lot of people from Iran went to the school. And I was also there. If people practicing Islam think theirs is the true religion, whose is true. And so I was never really allowed, though, to safely ask those questions out loud as a teenager. So a lot of the inner child work for me there has been, like, you know, in my mind's eye, going back and giving that young person permission to ask those questions safely and. And also, like, being, you know, encouraging of it to that younger self and like, you know, it's. And telling her, like, it's totally beautiful like, that you ask those questions that you want to know more about life. And in a place in my mind where it's not forbidden to ask those questions. And the song is really also about again, like, outsourcing our. Our own, like, knowledge and inner knowing to other authority figures and other people. So, like this man in the clouds. And I think, you know, I. In my mind, like, the song is. It's really. It's kind of a serious song and sad, but it's also a little tongue in cheek because it pokes at, like, the notion that there's this man in the clouds that has all the answers for us. And it may as well, you know, if it's just a man in the clouds and some taffeta robe. This is. That's a reference to the old temple video. With white hair and a beard. May as well be Major Tom up there in his tin can.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] Ground control to Major Tom.

Joe Corcoran [01:29:55] License that one.

John Dehlin [01:29:56] Now.

Mindy Gledhill [01:30:13] Bend your ear down low Hear the secrets of my heart Can I let them go? Set them free like shooting star. Is suffering required for living? Who hides the end answers? Who can tell me why? Maybe Major Tom is out there listening to me they're inside his tin can in a distant galaxy maybe we're connected by it in can and he'll call to say the answers have always been in me. Never been the same A puzzle piece that has no place Alien and strange A foreign object like distance face oh, why is suffering required for living? Who has the answers? Who can tell me why? Maybe Major Tom is out there listening to me There inside his tin can In a distant galaxy maybe we're connected By a tin can and a string and he'll call to say the answers have always been in me maybe Major Tom is out there listening to me out there in his tin can in a distant galaxy and maybe we connected by a tin can in a string and he'll call to save the. The answers have always been in me.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] So the answers are. Have always been in us, Is that what you're saying?

Mindy Gledhill [01:33:41] Maybe, yeah, totally. Yeah. It's kind of this notion of like me like going through the motions of like, you know, reaching out to this man in the clouds for all the answers. But I feel like lyrically I wanted to flip that to be like. But what if he were to tell me, like, actually the answers are just. They've always been in you. And so, yeah, it's me like claiming that.

John Dehlin [01:34:11] So instead of here's what I want for you, it's more what do you want for you?

Mindy Gledhill [01:34:16] What answers are, have always been in you. And that's really what I wanted to tell my younger self. I am that. Like, I feel like I've had to have my older self, you know, my present day self be that figure for my. The younger selves that live inside of me. Like, I am the one now. Like that instead of searching for somebody out there to give me the answers, I'm the one that's like, the answers have always been in you. They're in here. Like, you know, exercise your own voice and inner knowing. Not to say we can't like, search for knowledge, you know, from people who do know more than us or who are experts or there's so much to learn in this world, clearly. But when it comes to like making decisions for yourself and about your life and what you believe and what your values are, that's all in here. And you get to write that story.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] I'm curious if there's anything you're willing or able to share about some of those new paths. Maybe you've ventured on as you've started listening to your voice and figuring out what's important to you and how you're wired and what you care about and what you want to do with the rest of your life, are there any adventures or paths you even want to share in that regard?

Mindy Gledhill [01:35:40] Yeah, I mean, totally. I don't think there's anything that's really earth shattering as far as like new paths for me, except it's more of a simple daily practice of like everyday decisions that I feel like I often would like, you know, consult the Mormon part of my mind. Like the theology that's in there of like, you know, just by default and having to pull apart. Like, do you really. Is that what you really believe or want for you to. There's a lot of people pleasing tendencies in me that I need to address every day. You know, they're like, do I. Is that really what I mean? Or what I want? Am I going to resent saying yes to this later? You know, and having to, like, do that? I think one other aspect of, like, this journey for me and, you know, it's something that I still don't feel like I have all the answers to or like, you know, a concrete story to go with. But it's also been like, exploring my own, like, orientation, my sexual orientation as a person. A year or so ago, I. I came to this place where I. I was like, I don't. I am not like a normal straight person. You know, I am. I identify as bi. And it's not something I really talk about a lot, but it's also not something I've really collected a lot of data on in my life. I'm in a monogamous relationship and always have been, and I'm really happy in that. But it's also information about myself that it informs so much of who I am. I think when people think about orientation, they tend to think about sexuality only. But I feel like one's orientation has to do with so much of who you are as a person. What music you listen to, what you like, it plays into that in more ways than we think think about, you know, and so being able to claim that and say that out loud was a really big step for me and something that I had to give, like, younger me permission to, like, be able to say it felt kind of like saying that out loud felt more like, I don't know, like giving birth to something. It felt like it was happening coming whether I wanted it to or not. It felt more painful to, like, go through life not being able to just say that and have it be fine. And so. And also I had been showing up for years in queer spaces as an. As an ally and. And definitely was, you know, as I was, you know, sitting in a lot of those rooms with questions and not really concrete answers to that for myself, but came to a place where it started to be, like, uncomfortable. Uncomfortable to be that always be the ally in the room. And I felt, you know, was emceeing the Equality Utah Allies Gala and the Eccles Theater. And yeah, I got to a place where I just was like, it feels disingenuous at this point in my journey to show up in that role and not be able to speak my own truth, especially where there are so many people, like, sitting in there you know, in that journey with a lot of uncertainty and fear around it, I guess I felt like I got to a place of confidence with it where I was like, okay, it's time for me to be able to say this.

Exploring Identity and Sexual Orientation

John Dehlin [01:39:06] Tell me if you relate to this. If we look back at that metaphor of standing at the cliff, maybe you've got a whole new horizon ahead of you in terms of the falling down of your worldview and the amazing opportunity to rebuild a new life and a new set of choices and perspectives kind of in that second half of life, as Richard Rohr would say. But if you're coming out of a high demand religion in your 40s or 50s, well, you're already a parent, you're already married, you're in a long term marriage, probably you're a mom or dad. So many decisions. Maybe you didn't pursue the education you would have, maybe you didn't pursue the career that you might have. So like, in one sense, all the world's your oyster and in another sense you're still all the things, all the decisions you made 20 or 30 or 40 years ago.

Mindy Gledhill [01:40:08] You're like, how would I have done those differently? Or would I have done those differently?

John Dehlin [01:40:12] And can I make any new choices now?

Mindy Gledhill [01:40:14] Totally. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] Right?

Mindy Gledhill [01:40:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] And then you're sitting with the. Yeah, then you have to sit with like, do I wish I had made different choices? Or how do I explore now when I, you know.

Mindy Gledhill [01:40:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:28] So much of that's already written.

Mindy Gledhill [01:40:30] I know. Yeah, totally. For me personally, it just, it felt like an important thing and a part of myself as a person to be able to just claim and say out loud without any expectation, to like, have to like go anywhere with it or explore anything. I just. And to be able to show up to, to my partner with all, every part of me and who I am. I mean, I feel like relationships can only deepen like when we show up in full transparency with each other and my experience with that and, you know, being able to come out and claim that and in my marriage that has been true. I feel like our relationship has deepened. And so, yeah, I think a lot of people assume when they hear someone later in life coming out or with these stories that there's some drama thing that came with it. And I mean, there are definitely painful parts of my story, but yeah, I'm staying where I am and staying in the relationship I am. And I'm not saying that my story is the right story because other people's stories are different than that, and that's just fine. But yeah, it's just been an important thing for me to claim, and I think doing this inner child work has given me the confidence to just claim it.

John Dehlin [01:41:56] Yeah. It seems self evident that the best love is going to come with the highest degree of self knowledge and the highest amount of self disclosure to the person that you love. It just makes sense. You're going to get the best love results that way, I think.

Mindy Gledhill [01:42:13] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [01:42:15] Yeah.

Stained Glass Heart and Personal Healing

John Dehlin [01:42:16] All right. Well, what's Stained Glass Heart about?

Mindy Gledhill [01:42:18] I think it's about a lot of that. I actually wrote this song a long time ago. I didn't write it during, you know, when I was writing all these other songs for the phone booth sessions. I wrote it when I was writing the songs for Pocket Full of Poetry. Pocketful of Poetry is really like the prequel to Rabbit Hole. It's an album I wrote when I was really deep in the questions of my deconstruction and not. I was a little like, I don't know where to go with this. And Stained Glass Heart is a song that just came from me during that time. But for whatever reason, it didn't feel right for the album at the time. So I just like put it in a folder and forgot about it for a long time. But as I was going through a lot of this work, it kind of bubbled up to the surface again. And I wrote it originally for my husband. It was a song that's really about My love is not perfect. I'm here in a bunch of different broken pieces. And honestly, both of us are. But can that be more like this bigger picture? Like this beautiful stained glass picture made up of lots of different pieces? Can our story be like that

John Dehlin [01:43:33] and still be beautiful?

Mindy Gledhill [01:43:34] Yeah, and still be beautiful with every different part of us being transparent and that. So, yeah, it bubbled up to the surface during this whole process. And it felt like, you know, I actually sent it to Joe when, you know, I was ideating things for the album. Maybe this is where we can have Joe come in. And Joe, I want you to share this mic.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] Okay.

Mindy Gledhill [01:43:59] Yeah. So I sent this to Joe and what happened?

Joe Corcoran [01:44:04] If I recall, you sent it to me with like, a bunch of stuff.

Mindy Gledhill [01:44:08] Did I just send you a big folder or what?

Joe Corcoran [01:44:09] You sent me a folder with, like, a bunch of songs. And this was a demo that you had done with Trent, who you wrote it with?

Mindy Gledhill [01:44:19] Yeah, Trent Dabs out of Nashville.

Joe Corcoran [01:44:21] It was a mix of the demo, so it was just like left and right.

Mindy Gledhill [01:44:24] We recorded it in his living room just on like an SM58 and he just plugged into like a spring reverb amp with his guitar.

Joe Corcoran [01:44:32] Yeah. And it sounded great. And I remember you were like, I don't like it because like, I think you told me that you were like you were feeling under the weather when you sang.

Mindy Gledhill [01:44:41] Yeah, I had a cold.

Joe Corcoran [01:44:42] And I was like, oh no, you sound really cool. And so I think what did. I did like a. I recorded some things along with your demo to kind of as like a proof of concept. Kind of like, this could be cool.

Mindy Gledhill [01:44:56] Yeah.

Joe Corcoran [01:44:57] And then it turned out it wasn't all that cool.

Mindy Gledhill [01:44:59] No, but it was cool.

Joe Corcoran [01:45:02] It was moving towards really cool. I mean, the stuff that I did. And so then it sat around for

John Dehlin [01:45:10] a little while longer.

Joe Corcoran [01:45:12] And then during that time, just other work of mine had brought me to some of these newer AI tools where you can separate instruments from vocals that are mixed together. And I had always been really sort of skeptical about using them, but I was just like, I really want to give this another swing, a better swing, so I can try to convince Mindy that we should do it a certain way. And so then I ended up extracting the Vocal from this 12 year old demo and doing a whole other band arrangement to it. And I think it was like. And I remember because the first time I pitched it to you, it kind of hadn't landed. So I remember, like I took a bit of extra time. I was like, I really think this. Cause it was sort of in a heavier style that you weren't always doing. And so I took a bit of extra time to try to get it back to you. And then I feel like I sent it to you and we were like, it's done. You know, like it was just so good, you know, and it was very unadorned. And you told me that you liked the wind chimes. Cause that got added in the second pass, which were literally like on my tree outside of the workspace where I work.

Mindy Gledhill [01:46:21] And they were accidental at first. Right. But then they sounded cool. So you kept them in the recording. You intentionally recorded them after they.

Joe Corcoran [01:46:28] Well, I was working on it with the door open and they were in the same key as the song and I would just. I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And so then I went out with my iPhone and recorded them with my iPhone and then just imported it into the song and it kind of turned it into this magic thing. And it's. I mean, we've worked on a lot of stuff and I feel like it's the least adorned song maybe other than I Do adore. But as far as, like, there's not a lot going on. Like it didn't have to. It didn't require a lot of detailed sort of painting after the fact. It's just like a couple instruments and a really good vocal and super rad.

Mindy Gledhill [01:47:04] If you go listen to the recording, you're listening to a 12 year old demo of me in a living room on a very basic microphone and wind chimes recorded on an iPhone. It's really. It's a really beautiful recording and Joe did an awesome job of producing it. This is Stained Glass Heart.

Mindy Gledhill [01:47:39] Oh. The colors of the rainbow Both scattered in my bedroom window Make a frame around a bird who's singing in the weeping willow and it makes me want to cry When I realize I have long loved you With a stained glass heart A broken work of art but every piece of you pulls me apart and puts me back together When I don't know where to even start

Mindy Gledhill [01:48:28] But

Mindy Gledhill [01:48:28] I love you with a stained glass heart. Like a dying wave at sea There's a lonely part of me that's drifting Skimming just above the surface Looking for the one thing missing wow. While I'm trying to believe There's a place for you and me I have long loved you With a stained glass heart A broken work of art but every piece of you pulls me apart and puts me back together When I don't know where to even start

Mindy Gledhill [01:49:33] But

Mindy Gledhill [01:49:33] I love you with the stained glass heart. It would be so easy to create in a world of black and white Throw another empty can of pillow paint on a paint by number life. I have long loved you With a stained glass heart A broken work of art but every piece of you Pulls me apart and puts me back together When I don't know where to even start But I love you with a stained glass heart oh, I love you with a stained glass heart.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] Every piece of you tears me apart that doesn't sound fun.

Mindy Gledhill [01:50:57] Every piece of you pulls me apart and puts me back together Puts me

John Dehlin [01:51:00] back together and I don't know where

Mindy Gledhill [01:51:02] to even start Complicated.

John Dehlin [01:51:05] Yeah. No, no, I know, I know. That is how love can be, huh?

Mindy Gledhill [01:51:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:13] That's beautiful. Thank you. Both of you. Well, we're nine down, one to go. And the last one, I think is. I mean, all the songs fit so well together and. Let me just. Let me just show them again. Put my glasses on. You've got these in vinyl? Do you sell CDs these days?

Where to Find the Music and How to Show Support

Mindy Gledhill [01:51:32] Can you get these on CD? I haven't pressed these on CD because, like, so few people buy CDs anymore, but you can stream them everywhere that, you know, things can be streamed. Apple, Spotify, Tidal, Diesel, YouTube. You can find them anywhere that. Yeah, if you're not a vinyl person,

John Dehlin [01:51:50] how do people buy the vinyl? How do they buy it?

Mindy Gledhill [01:51:52] You can buy it on mindygledhill.com or you can also get it on a website that rhymes with Shamazon. Whatever suits your fancy. There's no. No judgment if you're curious about them. I also have actually some.

John Dehlin [01:52:10] But if they pay, buy it off your website. You get more of a marker.

Mindy Gledhill [01:52:13] I do. I just want to say buy it on Mindy.

John Dehlin [01:52:15] Glad.

Mindy Gledhill [01:52:15] Hilda throw out a rough number for those of you who are music appreciators. When you. When you buy the vinyl, it's as if you sat and streamed one of my songs 10,000 times. That's how. In terms of what you get paid. Yeah, like, so when you buy physical products from artists, they greatly appreciate it. Just with the way that streaming has evolved and how the pittance that it pays. And that's not why I'm here. But if you're. Yeah, if you want to buy it, vinyl's great and also streaming's great. Um, I also have a couple live shows coming up. Um, yeah, so I'm moving. I mentioned I'm moving to New York in a couple weeks. Here I have a show. I have two shows actually, back east, so one in the D.C. area in Vienna, Virginia, on October 3rd, and one in New York City on October 4th. They're both like. The one in Virginia on October 3rd is a dinner show. So if you come to the show, you can order dinner and watch the show. So, yeah, that one's like 5pm and then in New York on October 4, it's a brunch show at City Vineyard. So you can come sip some wine, have brunch with me, and I'll share songs from the Phone Booth Sessions.

John Dehlin [01:53:32] And you get those tickets where.

Mindy Gledhill [01:53:33] Mindygledhill.com. yeah, tickets are on my website.

John Dehlin [01:53:36] So this is the first album, and we're not done, but this is the first album. The Phone Booth Sessions, Volume 1. It's the red one. Beatles have a red and a blue album, by the way.

Mindy Gledhill [01:53:46] Oh, they do. Thanks for that reminder.

John Dehlin [01:53:50] I'm not saying you got that from them.

Mindy Gledhill [01:53:52] Well, Beatles were not allowed in my house growing up, so there are big holes in my knowledge of popcorn. Ultra.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] Oh, no, it's good. It's good. They were kind of greatest hits albums. It was like the red. I think the Red was the first half and the blue is the second half.

Mindy Gledhill [01:54:05] Really? Oh, my gosh, that's cool.

John Dehlin [01:54:08] Yeah. So the second is the Phone Booth Sessions, Volume 2. Really quickly. It was fun for me to learn maybe two interviews ago that you actually also sell your songs into, like, TV shows and stuff, right?

Mindy Gledhill [01:54:23] Oh, yeah. I do a lot of licensing to TV and film. I. I have an agency called Terror Bird Media that's out of Brooklyn, and so, yeah. Any film producers out there reach out to Terror Bird if any of these songs are interesting.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] But some examples of some of the shows your songs have been in.

Mindy Gledhill [01:54:41] So you think you can dance? The show called Bones.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Dancing with the Star show.

Mindy Gledhill [01:54:49] Oh, Dancing with the Stars. I always forget, like, when people ask me.

John Dehlin [01:54:54] No, it's good. That's good, that's good. That's.

Mindy Gledhill [01:54:56] Yeah, lots of. Lots of fun shows. The Good Wife, the Village. Oh, fun. Primetime shows.

John Dehlin [01:55:02] Fun. The Village, the movie.

Mindy Gledhill [01:55:04] No, there was a series called the Village. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:07] Margi and I love the Good Wife. That was good.

Mindy Gledhill [01:55:09] Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] Okay. And if people just want to support you separate from buying your stuff, is there a way they can just support you?

Mindy Gledhill [01:55:17] I mean, coming to live shows is always wonderful. Like, I love to meet people who connect with the songs and. Yeah, like. Yeah, thanks for asking. That's really generous of you.

John Dehlin [01:55:29] Of course. Okay, so the last song, I don't know if you would even call this the heart and soul of the album. This is from the volume one, right? Long Distance Lullaby. And there's a reprise, so it shows up twice on the first album. But this is at least one of the hearts and souls of the project.

Mindy Gledhill [01:55:47] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [01:55:47] I feel like it encompasses what the whole project is about. This. Yeah, it's really like the ultimate lullaby to the younger self. Like, it's. You know, I think I had to ask myself, like, how. How can I soothe like. Like some of those wounds that my inner child has in there? And this song came up from that question.

Mindy Gledhill [01:56:22] Peace settling in. Tears Soft on your skin. Cease the war within and let my love in. Miles of wires in between between piles of message machines I hope that you're listening I'm reaching through time Here on the other side to sing you these words to offer you my long distance lullaby I'm reaching through time Here on the other side Singing these words to offer you my long distance love Art bold but never too much Strong

Mindy Gledhill [01:58:21] but

Mindy Gledhill [01:58:21] never too tough Worthy as hell and you've always been more than enough I'm reaching through time Here on the other side to sing you these words to offer you my long, long distance lullaby I'm reaching through time Here on the other side to sing you these words to offer you my long distance lullaby. What is love if we're just talking to ourselves? Pick up, pick up I'm here for you. And I'm reaching through time Here on the other side Tight to sing you these words to offer you my long distance L by I'm reaching through time Here on the other side Singing these words the feeling my long distance look by I'm reaching through time Here on the other side Sing you these words whenever you cry A long distance lullaby.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] So powerful. Thank you.

Mindy Gledhill [02:00:46] Thanks for having us today.

Final Reflections, Family, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:00:49] Any final, I imagine as a musician you want your music maybe to be the, the center point of your, of your message and your conclusions. Is there anything else you want to share about what you got from inner child work and your therapy and your journey from the last episode of this one? Any final words, anything you want to say about what you would say to your younger self and then also anything you want to share about what you would say to others who are in it right now?

Mindy Gledhill [02:01:28] Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think the songs speak for themselves as to what I would say to my younger self. And the hope, like, for every artist and when they write music or create any kind of art is that other people will hear it or see it and find themselves inside of it. And so, yeah, I think I fully recognize that. Just because this therapeutic, like, modality has worked for me doesn't mean it's for everybody. And also I'm, I'm not a therapist or a psychologist want to just give that disclaimer. But there's some really wonderful books. If therapy is not something that's an option for anyone who's listening. Richard Schwartz and, you know, professionals, please correct me in the comments if I'm wrong, but I believe he's like one of the main psychologists who developed, you know, the ifs, which is internal families. Yeah, internal family systems, which a lot of like what I've talked about today is a part of like the inner child work. It's, it's all about like how, yeah, there's so many different parts. Parts work is another word for it. Parts that live inside of us of, you know, they might come from like people you grew up with, people in your home, friends, church leaders, I don't know. But any, like, any of those voices that bubble up inside of you. Books by Richard Schwartz, like that address parts work and internal family systems have been really, really helpful to me. I Would say, even in my therapy that I've done around this, like, most of my research has been by reading books, like, and the therapy I've done, we touched on it for a little bit, and that was really helpful. And it kind of sent me off in the direction of, like, this is really clicking for me. So the hope today is that if there was something here that clicked for you, that you'll find yourself in these songs. And that's all that I can hope for.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] Well, Margi really wanted to be here today. We had a family thing, and she had to be there. But she loves ifs and she loves you, and so Margi's.

Mindy Gledhill [02:03:45] So I love Margi. I'm sad that we didn't have her here today, but totally understand.

John Dehlin [02:03:48] But she gives ifs the huge thumbs up as well. So definitely check out that modality. We call that bibliotherapy. When you. When you learn by reading.

Mindy Gledhill [02:03:56] By reading.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] And that's valid. Yeah, super valid. And so thanks for being willing. Well, this is just. I love art and artists because that's what artists do. They open up their heart and share with us their experiences in ways that help us think and feel. And so you did it again, Mindy Gledhill. You did it again.

Mindy Gledhill [02:04:18] I loved our visit so much, John. Thanks so much for having me and for just all of the conversations that you've opened up for people. When I was first going through the deconstruction phase, I didn't know you existed. And when I discovered you, it was so helpful to me in those early years. So thank you for that.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] My pleasure. Any final words, Joe? Thanks for coming. You're a Gentile, as we say.

Joe Corcoran [02:04:44] Yeah, I am.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] So you're like, what is all this Mormon stuff?

Mindy Gledhill [02:04:48] Oh, my gosh, no.

Joe Corcoran [02:04:49] I mean, I remember having a great conversation, sipping some whiskey with a friend of Mindy's once. You can cut this if you want. And he had just sort of transitioned out of the church and was sort of asking me. Cause I grew up in a much older tradition. And I said to him, well, you know, yeah, we have all this, all the rules, but nobody listens to them.

Mindy Gledhill [02:05:16] And you can still claim your religion.

Joe Corcoran [02:05:17] Well, I mean, that's probably. Some people might not think that, but, you know, like, the idea of being, you know, I came from an ancient tradition with a lot of outdated rules that the community was just so much looser about that sort of thing. And your friend's response was, well, you had a couple thousand years of extra practice, and I thought that was great.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] So y' all are ahead of us.

Mindy Gledhill [02:05:44] There you go.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] We're just catching up.

Mindy Gledhill [02:05:46] Yeah. Joe's been so awesome to, like. He's been coming to Provo to work with me for, like, I don't know, 15ish years now or more. And it's been really awesome to like, have him see the ways that Utah has evolved and changed through the years and to witness my journey from, like, the first album we worked on together, I was fully practicing Garmin wearing Mormon. And at every stage, he's been such an awesome friend and collaborator. So thanks for being here, Joe.

Joe Corcoran [02:06:16] My pleasure. It's great to be back.

John Dehlin [02:06:17] Is it easier to get a drink in Utah than 15 years ago?

Joe Corcoran [02:06:21] It's easier to get a coffee.

John Dehlin [02:06:22] I mean, coffee.

Joe Corcoran [02:06:23] Coffee is the one. I mean, look, I like. I will drink alcohol from time to time in moderation, but coffee is the thing that I need in order to exist.

Mindy Gledhill [02:06:34] There was no Starbucks in Provo, and Joe Francis, there was nowhere to get coffee.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] I heard they're doing. Getting rid of the Starbucks in Provo.

Mindy Gledhill [02:06:40] Oh, really? I feel like there's a couple nowadays.

John Dehlin [02:06:42] Maybe there's a couple.

Mindy Gledhill [02:06:43] There's so many coffee stores.

John Dehlin [02:06:44] The one byu, the one by byu, I heard there.

Mindy Gledhill [02:06:46] Oh, yeah, I think that's gone now. That's gone. But there are a lot of coffee shops in Provo now.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Anyway, you get coffee now.

Mindy Gledhill [02:06:53] I'm so grateful, Joe.

John Dehlin [02:06:56] Thanks for all you've done for us and for the broader community.

Joe Corcoran [02:06:59] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:06:59] Yeah. Thanks for coming today.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] Mindy, do you want to tell us about your tattoos really quick or not?

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:04] Oh, you want me to? Okay.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] Just like any of them? Any of them or none of them?

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:07] No, totally.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:08] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:08] A lot of them are actually symbols of my songs and they're little reminders to me, actually, of. Yeah. Like, parts. Different parts of me that I appreciate. And also, I feel like I'm, like, losing my memory as I get older, and I want to be able to tell my grandkids stories about my life. So these are more like visual cues to my stories than anything else.

John Dehlin [02:07:32] So which ones are they? Tell.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:34] This is my tour bus. I don't know if you guys.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] Oh, yeah, I remember that.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:37] And

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:40] this is a rabbit hole.

John Dehlin [02:07:41] I don't know if you can see going down the rabbit hole.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:44] Lyric from Pocket Full of Poetry. I've got a head full of songs. A heart with wings. I just got these in Berlin, actually. By someone you interviewed, Jesse.

John Dehlin [02:07:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jessie Hildebrandt.

Mindy Gledhill [02:07:59] Jesse Hildebrandt gave me these little.

John Dehlin [02:08:00] You saw her in Germany.

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:02] Yeah, I was in Germany recently. And it's. It represents number five, which is our family, me and Ryan and our three kids.

John Dehlin [02:08:09] Fun.

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:10] Yeah. Anchor for my anchor album, Little Red Bike, for a song that you can't.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] Yeah, you basically got all that.

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:15] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:16] This is a song on the Pocket Full of Poetry album that's about my

John Dehlin [02:08:21] dad and the bird.

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:22] These are some stars that I got at an event from your wife, Jenny.

Joe Corcoran [02:08:27] Oh, she a flash tattoo. She had a flash tattoo party.

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:30] Oh, yeah. And then Bluebird, I have a song called Bluebird on the Rabbit Hole album that's really about reclaiming my autonomy and voice as a woman from the patriarchy.

John Dehlin [02:08:41] Looks like you're working for a sleeve. Are you working towards a sleeve?

Mindy Gledhill [02:08:44] I think. I mean, I'm not, like, married to it, but these are. I'm just going as I feel inspired.

John Dehlin [02:08:49] You better write some more songs so you can fill up that sleeve. Mindy Gledhill, thank you for joining us today. Again, the album. The albums are the Phone Booth Sessions Volume one in red and the Phone Booth Sessions in Volume two in blue. Buy the vinyl, stream on Spotify and wherever you get your music. Check out Mindy's live shows, follow her on mindygledhill.com and we hope to have her back a fifth time on Warmth Stories.

Mindy Gledhill [02:09:19] Thank you so much, John.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] Are you working on your next album or.

Mindy Gledhill [02:09:21] No, not yet. I need to take a breather.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] How about in New York?

Mindy Gledhill [02:09:25] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:09:26] You see some shows?

Mindy Gledhill [02:09:27] Sure, yeah. I'm gonna see Smashing Pumpkins in October.

John Dehlin [02:09:31] All right, thanks, Mindy.

Mindy Gledhill [02:09:33] Okay, thanks, Joe. Peace out.

John Dehlin [02:09:35] All right, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Everyone, Just really quickly, please like and subscribe. If you value this content and you wanna see it continue, you can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor. If you're already a donor. Thank you. You make this possible. We are getting sued. Trademark and copyright lawsuit. They're laughing at my sadness. That'. Schadenfreude. Would you get joy?

Mindy Gledhill [02:09:59] I love. No, I love how you just nonchalantly.

Joe Corcoran [02:10:02] Schadenfreude is one of my favorite words.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] Yeah, we are getting sued for trademark and copyright infringement. If you want to support us as well, by the Mormon Church, LDS Church, you can support us@mormonstories.org legal anyway, most importantly, comment, like, subscribe, share. We love your comments. We love your email@mormonstoriesmail.com, we love your feedback. And if you want to apply to be on Mormon Mormon Stories, if you want to be on the Mormon Stories version of Tiny Desktop Concerts. You can go to mormonstories.org apply and apply to be on the show. A little application three minute video. We'd love to consider your application. You didn't have to do an application. Mindy Gledhill.

Mindy Gledhill [02:10:47] Oh, thanks for. Maybe I got grandfathered in.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] You got grandfather grandmother grandmothered in by

Mindy Gledhill [02:10:53] doing one of your early interviews. I don't know. Thanks for. For having me.

John Dehlin [02:10:57] My pleasure. All right, everyone, take care. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care

Mindy Gledhill [02:11:06] of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.