Welcome and Guest Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 17, 2023, and I'm super excited to have in studio with us our special guest for today, Hayley Rall of Girls Camp Podcast.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:14] Hey, Hayley.

Hayley Rawle [00:00:15] Hi. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] So good to have you.

Hayley Rawle [00:00:17] So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Yeah. So just for a little bit of background, we love to interview kind of gen zers or millennials because we like to keep our pulse on the church and what's causing people to doubt or question and leave the church. We love to interview relatively recently returned missionaries. But I also, you know, one of the ways that I vet really cool people to interview is if they have a social media presence, that gives me a good sense for whether they'd be a good interview. So never are we going to stop just interviewing regular old people, normal people, just average Mormons. But at the same time, sometimes they're going to interview influencers, partly because we want to promote their platform, give other people a voice, and help lift lots of other voices. So for all those reasons and just because she's entertaining and interesting to listen to, you can check out her stuff on TikTok, on Instagram, Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, and wherever you consume your podcast. Again, it's Hayley Rawle. So thanks for joining us.

Hayley Rawle [00:01:18] Of course. Thanks for that intro.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] We are also super happy to be joined by one of my co pilots, Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:26] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] And there's a. You've got a tie to Hayley. Do you want to explain what that tie is?

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:31] Yeah. So it was kind of interesting that we both reached out to Hayley around the same time or thought about interviewing Hayley around the same time. So my husband Zach, he served a mission in Germany, and him and Hailey served in the same mission. And I think you were on the same zone for a little bit or something.

Hayley Rawle [00:01:49] We were in the same area. So my first area, when I was fresh out there on the mission, Elder Houghton was in my same area with me. He's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] Oh, you liked him. You liked him.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:01] Such a sweetheart.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:02] I mean, of course.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] Was he obedient to the rules?

Hayley Rawle [00:02:05] I would say so.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Rebellious.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:08] He did not strike me as rebellious.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] Good job, Zach.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Thumbs up. All right. Anything else, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:16] No, that. That's. I'm excited about this interview, and I know some of the stories Zach has told me, some of the mission stories.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] You guys had dinner the other night? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:26] And. Yeah. Yeah, we had dessert at Hayley's home.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Oh, dessert.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:30] And really? Yeah. So I'm really excited about it.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Well, it's good to have you here, Gerardo.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] I love Margi, but it's great to have you as well.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:38] Yeah. Sorry that you're just the only woman here.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:41] Oh, it's fine today. I don't mind it. I don't mind it.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] She can do it. Well, cool. All right. Well, let's see. I've read through your outline, and as far as the themes go, this is going to be kind of a traditional faith journey, but with some twists to it. We're going to be talking a little bit about addiction, a little bit about early marriage and some of the difficulties there. Faith stuff. A little bit of kind of the law of chastity kind of bishop stuff in the teenage years, and in many ways, kind of a normal Mormon story. But there'll be some twists and turns.

Hayley Rawle [00:03:17] Yeah, that sums it up.

Hayley's Intentions and Context for the Interview

John Dehlin [00:03:19] Anything you want to start with in terms of your intentions? So what we like to do is to give people a chance. Sometimes viewers and listeners might make assumptions about why you're doing an interview on Mormon stories. And some of the less charitable assumptions would be that you're trying to tear people's faith down or get people out of the church or that you're angry or whatever it is. Do you want to state your intentions of why you wanted to do this interview as a way to start?

Hayley Rawle [00:03:47] Sure, Yeah. I would love to. I think that sharing stories is really powerful. I think it's a powerful tool for healing and for finding community. So I think anytime we are willing to share our stories, we find people who connect and who relate. And for that reason, I want to share my own story.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Beautiful. All right. Well, good. Well, let's begin. I get the sense you haven't watched a lot of Mormon stories, which I think is a good thing. Have you watched a few?

Hayley Rawle [00:04:21] A handful I have watched. So I've watched Chelsea Homer's because she's amazing. Amazing. I just recently watched Stephanie's Mormon Mom Tries Mushrooms.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Yes. Stephanie's phenomenal episode. She's great.

Hayley Rawle [00:04:35] Yeah. Really, really good episode. I related to a lot of what she said. She's very articulate. I really love that episode. But other than that, I think I tried listening to Mormon stories when I was going to byu, and I listened. It must have been like a history episode. And I think I started listening and was not ready yet, so I listened to just a little bit of it.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] No worries.

Hayley Rawle [00:05:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Well, I only asked that because, well, I don't know if you know, how we Begin. But we do. We do go a little bit long. But I appreciate you being a good sport about that. But let's begin in the normal way. Where does your Mormon story begin, Hayley Rawle? And we usually ask about, like, your parents and if there's any pioneer ancestry or whatever. Let's talk about that first.

Growing Up Mormon in Provo, Utah

Hayley Rawle [00:05:20] Awesome. Yeah. So I was born in Provo, Utah. Grew up in Provo. Very Mormon. Very, very Mormon. I do have pioneer ancestry. I wish I knew more about it than I do. But Mormon, as far back as I

John Dehlin [00:05:36] know, essentially multiple generations on both sides of your family. Okay. And your parents, do you know where they met?

Hayley Rawle [00:05:45] My parents actually both went to the same high school I went to, which was Timphew High School. In Provo. In Provo, yeah. So lots of Provo roots. My mom was best friends with my dad's little sister, so that's how they knew each other. And yeah, my dad went on a mission. They got married soon after and had kids soon after that.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] And your grandparents who were living in Provo or Orem as well, what do you know what their professions were? I'm just curious.

Hayley Rawle [00:06:11] Yeah, so my grandpa, my dad's dad worked for a really long time at byu. He was a literature professor at byu. He actually.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] What was his last name?

Hayley Rawle [00:06:21] No. Walker. So my maiden name. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Stephen Walker.

Hayley Rawle [00:06:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] Holy moly. He was Margi's favorite professor at byu.

Hayley Rawle [00:06:29] He's the best.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] That's your grandpa?

Hayley Rawle [00:06:31] That's my grandpa, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] He taught Bible as literature and he taught like a Lord of the Rings class that Markie just loved. And she would tell me all about it when we were courting. He's a Harvard trained dude.

Hayley Rawle [00:06:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] That's your freaking grandpa. Is he still alive?

Hayley Rawle [00:06:52] Yeah, he's still alive. Yeah, he's the best. Best. Oh, my God, he's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] I always wondered whether he was a literal believer because he was just so smart, so enlightened. And I'm not saying literal believers aren't smart, but once you get like a Harvard level PhD education, it's a different thing to remain an orthodox literal believer.

Hayley Rawle [00:07:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] So I was wondering about that. You don't have to out him or even if you know.

Hayley Rawle [00:07:14] No, I won't out him. I don't really know. I feel like it's something I also wonder and would love to talk to him about. Yeah, I think he and my dad are very similar in their kind of the type of person they are, that intellectual, academic type. And I actually recently came across a letter. My grandpa. So Steve had written, I Think BYU has professors write letters of, like, why they stay in Mormonism. It's kind of a thing. And I read his letter and it was an interesting read. Where I'm at now, and what I do know about my grandpa is he would have a wonderful discussion about it. Very, very open minded, very kind, very willing to discuss. So it's a conversation I want to have.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] So your dad grew up the son of a BYU professor, Harvard trained English professor at byu, which also means he would have known Eugene England, which that name may not mean a lot to you, but he was.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:17] Never heard it.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Eugene England was like a pillar in the progressive and liberal Mormon community who ended up kind of getting booted from byu. And you can ask your grandpa about Eugene England.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:28] Yeah. Interesting. I've never heard the name.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Okay. But yeah, you got a lot to learn.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:32] Yeah, I'll write it down.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] I'm not mansplaining you. Okay. So your. I'm guessing your paternal grandma was a stay at home mom then, is that right?

Hayley Rawle [00:08:43] Yes. Well, no, actually.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Oh, cool.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:45] She taught first grade for 30 years. I want to say she was a first grade teacher. And they are divorced now.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Oh.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:53] Yeah, so. And my grandpa is remarried, so they got divorced probably like 10 years ago now. But the whole time they were married, after her kids were out of the home, she was a first grade teacher. She taught like my little sister first grade and stuff. Kind of fun. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:09:13] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Okay, so. But your dad grew up. That's kind of crazy. So he grew up in a home where his dad was a BYU professor. I'm just trying to like, download what all that probably meant. Yeah, it's kind of intense for your dad, I'm guessing.

Hayley Rawle [00:09:26] Yeah, Yeah, I think so. He. My dad actually ended up teaching as an adjunct professor at byu doing English. My aunt, so my dad's sister teaches at byu, taught at BYU as an adjunct professor. So very literary. They all taught in the English realm, which is what I ended up studying as well. But yeah, BYU roots. Strong BYU roots.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] All right, how about your mom's side?

Hayley Rawle [00:09:52] So my grandpa was deep in the seminary program.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Ooh, ces.

Hayley Rawle [00:09:58] Yeah, I'm trying to remember exactly what he did specifically, but I know.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Maybe I know Warner.

Hayley Rawle [00:10:06] Paul Warner is his name.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] I think I know who Paul Warner was. Go, keep going.

Hayley Rawle [00:10:10] Yeah, I. Yeah, I don't know all the details. I just know he worked in Circle Seminary, church education, and he's tied to byu. I don't know if it's just like a community thing or if he actually had like, Specific BYU teaching things. But he worked for the church for his whole career.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:10:33] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] That's also intense.

Hayley Rawle [00:10:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't even really realized that, but yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] So you're. It's kind. Your parents were probably in their own realm, cultural powerhouses. Between the two of them, I imagine that was a pretty epic marriage in some ways.

Hayley Rawle [00:10:50] Culturally, yes and no. I feel like my parents and, you know, I don't know too much about their story, but I do know my dad was a bit of a rebel in high school, for lack of a better term, as was my mom. So they were definitely not. I mean, I don't think it was anything super, super significant, but they were not, you know what I'm saying? They didn't. They were different, I think, than their parents in a lot of ways.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Is your. Is Paul Warner the guy who ran the Freedom Festival? Is it that guy?

Hayley Rawle [00:11:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] So I'm reading his bio right now.

Hayley Rawle [00:11:31] Yeah. He's still involved with the Freedom Festival.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:11:34] He keeps saying he's going to retire, but keeps not retir.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] Okay, that's cool.

Hayley Rawle [00:11:39] Yeah, yeah. Super cool. So very involved with the community, Very involved with byu, all those connections.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] And your dad was a rebel. Yes, that's because he was, you know, raised by an English major.

Hayley Rawle [00:11:53] Yeah, exactly. And I was, too. So now here I am.

Family Background and Parents' Marriage

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:56] Do you have a sense of how your grandparents were with your dad? They were really strict or where they were less lenient?

Hayley Rawle [00:12:04] That's a really good question. I'm not sure. And it's an interesting thing because I. There's a lot of. There's a lot to explore there, I think with. Yes. With both of my parents.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:12:17] And with my dad, I think we've come closer to having these conversations. But a lot of what I know, I've sort of gathered, you know, either contextually or just little things here and there. And I'm not so sure. I do think, as I said about my grandparents, I do think my mom's parents were much more strict, probably, whereas I think my dad's parents had a little bit more of a progressive lean.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] That would make sense.

Hayley Rawle [00:12:49] Yeah. As you can imagine. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Do you know, if you're. If you're. If Walker, Grandpa Walker, if he married a faithful Mormon as his second wife, and if they were married in the temple.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:00] I believe she's faithful Mormon. I don't know if they got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Okay. It doesn't really matter.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:06] No, it's a good question. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Okay. So your parents met at in high school or just through your.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:13] Yes, they dated in high school. And then my dad went on a mission at 19. And do you know where he went? He went to Germany. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Cool.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:26] Yeah, he went to Germany on his mission. That was a part of our family lore growing up. We talked a lot about Germany. We all studied German. And, yeah, he went to Germany, wrote my mom, and then they got married pretty soon after he got back.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] Did Grandpa Walker serve a mission in Germany?

Hayley Rawle [00:13:47] I want to say he served a mission in England.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Okay. Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:51] If I remember right.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] All right.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Okay. So you're. They wrote and while your dad was on his mission and then got married as soon as he got home.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Do you know how young your mom was when?

Hayley Rawle [00:14:04] 19. Oh, I'm pretty sure 19. 19 or 20. 20 at the oldest.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:10] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:10] I'm pretty sure 19. Because she had my sister. My older sister at 20, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] Wow.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:19] I know.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] So how many siblings total?

Hayley Rawle [00:14:21] So there's four of us.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:23] Yep. I'm. It's my older sister, me, my younger sister, and then nine years after my younger sister, a little brother.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] Caboose.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] Okay. All right. So tell. Tell me if I'm right about this, but there's kind of two high schools traditionally in Provo. Provo High is kind of more west, maybe the less affluent. And is it temp view?

Hayley Rawle [00:14:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] Is the more east more up against the bench? Kind of more affluent Mormons in Provo, basically.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:54] Yes, exactly. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] This is kind of Donna Showalter territory where Donna would have been relief study president, kind of East Bench Provo, which for our never Mormon listeners, it. You know, other than like Rexburg, Idaho, it kind of doesn't get more intense than, like, East Bench Provo, you know, maybe Alpine and Highland, Utah, but, like, it's pretty intense Mormonism.

Hayley Rawle [00:15:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I was born there, and I lived there until I went on my mission, so that's all I knew. Very intense Mormonism. Yes. And my husband is from Alpine Highland, so.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:15:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Okay, cool. So, yeah. What was your Mormon upbringing like? Like your. Let's just say pre. 18 years.

Hayley Rawle [00:15:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:15:41] So I feel like we were both very typical Mormon and not all at once. We were very typical Mormon in the sense that grew up around Mormons. As I said, we went to church every week, participated in all the activities. My dad had issues since I was born. Essentially, he's had drug addiction and alcoholism. So. So it was kind of this interesting thing where we were a typical Mormon family in a lot of ways. And at times. And then there were stints even in my childhood where my dad would be in rehab for a certain amount of time, but he would also hold callings for other. In other time slots. You know, so there was kind of this constant, I would say back and forth between depending on how my dad was doing. We were that family unit, all going to church together. And then there were times when he wasn't there. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Were you born before, during, or after law school?

Hayley Rawle [00:16:49] I was born after law school.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Okay. Do you know where your dad went to law school?

Hayley Rawle [00:16:53] Byu.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Okay. J. Reuben Clark, baby.

Hayley Rawle [00:16:56] Yep. Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Okay. So. Wow. So he stays in Provo after he gets his law degree. Practicing law.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] But has a drug and alcohol addiction.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:08] Yes. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] Wow.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] So that's. That's. That can be. Tell me if I'm wrong. Some deep family shame to know that you're in the heart of, like, conservative Provo with the BYU dad, grandpa, and a CES grandpa, and your dad's got a drug and alcohol addiction, and people kind of know it.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:29] Yeah. It was an interesting thing because as a child, my parents were very private, I would say, within our family unit. So basically what happened is me and my siblings as well, we knew something was going on. I mean, as young as I can remember, there's, you know, there's signs. You kind of are sensing something's going on. But it wasn't actually told to us explicitly until after I had kind of figured it out. And once my dad started actually going to rehab, you know, we had to sit down and my parents kind of explained what was going on to us.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Do you know what age that was when you first found out your dad was in rehab?

Hayley Rawle [00:18:13] I wish I remembered. It's so hard to remember.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Like, 15, 10.

Hayley Rawle [00:18:17] Oh, it was younger. Yeah. It would have probably been closer to 8, 9, 10, I would say. And yeah, the reason I mentioned that is because I feel like there was sort of, I don't know, like a compartmentalization maybe where we were going to church. My family was interacting with Mormonism. I was interacting with Mormonism in all these really typical ways. But then kind of behind closed doors, there was this sort of shameful secret going on as well. And another aspect of that that I do think is worth mentioning is we had a lot of support and stability provided to us by the church as well, particularly my mom. And that had its own complicated things that came with it. But I do remember as a child feeling like we had a community and the support of a community beyond Just extended family that I think was beneficial in a lot of ways, particularly for my mom as she was going through it.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] Nice.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:26] I do have a question about. So you mentioned that you didn't know until later when you were around 10, nine, about your dad's, the hard situation that he was living in. But what about the word? Did the word know? I would imagine the bishop had to know. But usually if the bishop knows, very suddenly everyone else knows totally.

Hayley Rawle [00:19:52] I don't remember feeling like embarrassed like my friends knew, but certainly I knew that the adults knew. I knew the bishop knew my childhood ward all growing up. The bishop was a family friend of ours as well. So not only did he know in the capacity of bishop, but he was close with my family. My mom was close to the bishop's wife. So I definitely knew that adults knew. And I mean, obviously I think kids in the ward could see that my dad wasn't present. But I don't really remember feeling like everybody like knew our business necessarily.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:32] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:20:33] But I definitely think it was, yeah. Known in the ward. But I think at that point it felt much more like again, that supportive, kind of like ward family type feeling, which is good.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:44] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:20:44] Yeah, I feel fortunate for that for sure.

Childhood Faith and Early Church Experiences

John Dehlin [00:20:47] So in those preteen years, how orthodox Mormony were the beliefs in your home in terms of like, God, Jesus, the Book of Mormon, the atonement, the follow the prophet beliefs, and then behaviors too? Was it an orthodox home and was it an orthoprax home in terms of your practices?

Hayley Rawle [00:21:09] I would say orthodox and orthoprax. We did family home evening every Monday, had assignments, would do the lessons. I started reading the Book of Mormon daily literally as a child. So the Book of Mormon was a huge part of our life. My mom did a really good job at having family habits and rituals. We would pray together as a family in the morning, we would pray together as a family at night. We always attended church. We always attended church activities and we, we spoke a lot about our beliefs as a family, mainly in like family home evening settings. It was a huge part of our family culture, the beliefs of Mormonism. And I'll. Most of our family rituals revolved around Mormonism, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] And would you say your mom was like an intense Mormon or a relaxed Mormon or a middle of the road Mormon? In terms of like, her intensity, I

Hayley Rawle [00:22:11] would say middle of the road, maybe leaning intense. However, my mom's a very grounded, down to earth, practical person. So although she's a very devout believer, she also has a very heavy dose of Practicality, I guess so, yeah. It's maybe a bit difficult to describe in that way, but I do think it was very typical Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:22:43] Like Mormon mom wanted us to dress modestly, wanted us to go to church, read the scriptures. Pretty typical in that sense. So probably middle rote.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] Okay. Any, any stories from your childhood you want to tell, particularly about your evolving faith or your identity that, that you think play into your story later? There's a couple I'm seeing on your.

Hayley Rawle [00:23:12] Yeah. One story that I think is interesting is kind of part of my family lore, this story. And I was very young, I want to say I was probably 6ish. And I don't remember this, but I've been told this many a time. I was reading the scriptures with my family and we were talking about Moroni's promise, which at the end of the Book of Mormon it says pray about the Book of Mormon to find out if it's true. And I went in my room that night and I came back out of my room and was shouting, it's true, it's true. I prayed about it and it's true. So I've been told that since I was a kid that I had received some sort of spiritual witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon. And I think that just speaks to how much it was spoken about and how valued it was in my family culture to gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:14] It's so interesting how those stories just become part of like the things that the family tells.

Hayley Rawle [00:24:19] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:20] Sometimes in testimony meetings they come up. I feel really identified with that. I had a really similar story. The thing is, I do remember making it up that I had heard a voice and that I had gained a testimony. I remember lying about it because I knew I was get. I was going to get my parents approval.

Hayley Rawle [00:24:42] Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:43] It's really interesting.

Hayley Rawle [00:24:43] Yeah, it is interesting for sure. And interesting that those stories are repeated as a. I mean I never felt like it was. It's been used against me or anything, but it definitely was an exciting, positive story that was, you know, continually told.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] I think for adults and especially for parents, it's very validating.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Your kids like really catch on to the faith you're trying to within them.

Hayley Rawle [00:25:10] Totally. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] Yeah. What about like fasting? I think you have a story about that.

Hayley Rawle [00:25:14] Yeah. I just remember even very young, trying really hard to fast all day on fast Sunday we would go to my grandma's, the Walker side of the family. And I remember the long Sunday afternoons, just the willpower. I was trying to exercise toward not eating. And I remember doing it out of this sense of almost. I don't know if pride is the right word, but I remember thinking, this is. This is such a good thing to do. And fasting is important, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna be really good at fasting. And I remember the people around me, the adults in my life, being really impressed that even as a child I had not eaten until 5pm on a Sunday because most kids around me were, you know, would fast for breakfast and then eat after church type of thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And then also you. You had some anxiety around the Holy Ghost. Do you want to talk about that?

Anxiety, the Holy Ghost, and Teen Years

Hayley Rawle [00:26:21] Oh, yes. I had a lot of anxiety around the Holy Ghost. I, as a child, would pray. I remember praying every night that there wouldn't be an earthquake, hurricane, fire, flood, tornado, tsunami, robbery, terrorist attack. And I felt like I needed to pray specifically for those things not to happen or else they would happen. And if I forgot to pray for the right thing, then it would happen and I would have what I now believe are panic attacks. But I was thinking that it was the Holy Ghost telling me that something was wrong. So, for example, one Saturday, my family was going to drive to a ghost town nearby. And as we were getting in the car, I was feeling really anxious and we started driving and I said to my family, I have a bad feeling. I think the Holy Ghost is telling me we shouldn't go. Something bad's going to happen. And so we didn't go. And my anxiety, even as a child, I was interpreting as not only the Holy Ghost, but then as my duty to, like, protect the people around me because I thought God was, you know, telling me that bad things were going to happen. And that happened. I wouldn't say frequently, but definitely more than one time.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Thank you. Thanks for sharing any other formative stories about your childhood, either in terms of your experiences or your parents before we jump into your teen adolescent years.

Hayley Rawle [00:28:02] I don't think so. I. I don't have a super crisp memory of my childhood, so I think, yeah, those are the things that stand out.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Okay. Okay, cool. Well, let's go ahead and shift to kind of those adolescent teen years, and I'm curious to know how your Mormon story kind of develops.

Hayley Rawle [00:28:26] Yes. So as a teen. Keep going. As a teen, I think that I. This is when things started to. I wouldn't say shift in a large way for me, but I think gears maybe started slowly turning. As a teenager, I would not consider myself a particularly rebellious teenager, but I Do think I was pushing boundaries in my own small ways, and I'm very much an individualist and I liked being different and I was very opinionated as a teenager and I liked to share my opinions and was just kind of starting push back, I would say, in small ways on church culture. Things that I was noticing were feeling not aligned for me or I just didn't want to do because I was a teenager. And there was some friction that that started during those teen years because of

John Dehlin [00:29:33] that, if I can ask, is just background. What were you into? Were you into like music, art, dance? What were your interests as a teen, as an early teen, culturally? And then let's talk about how that fit into some of the behaviors that were red flags for some of the adults.

Hayley Rawle [00:29:51] Yeah, I was. I was an artistic type of teenager in some ways. I was very literary. I was writing poetry. I had a blog where I was writing my poetry, listening to indie music, that sort of thing. And then I also was a soccer player, player, student government. I ran track. So I kind of had a lot of elements to my personality, I would say, and kind of different friend groups associated with those different parts of me. I think I identified most with the more literary kind of bleeding heart group as a teen. And I had a group of friends that were that way. But I also could kind of click into the more sporty, you know, student gov participating in all this. The school activity type person as well.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] So was academic, were academics important to you?

Hayley Rawle [00:30:45] Hugely, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:30:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] So you were bookish or nerdy or whatever?

Hayley Rawle [00:30:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Did you have any favorite authors that you really got into as a teen?

Hayley Rawle [00:30:53] Yeah, my favorite author as a teen was Kurt Vonnegut. Whoa. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] What?

Hayley Rawle [00:30:59] I found a Kurt Vonnegut book. My dad was out of the house at this point and he had his bookshelf and I found he had a bookshelf and kind of a basket of mostly alternative rock CDs. And it was kind of a special thing. I was like connecting to him through, you know, not directly, but through his. The books he liked to read and his music. And I found a Slaughterhouse 5 copy and I read it and loved it. And yeah, it's funny, I've read it many times since and the themes of the book strike me very differently now. But I really liked Kurt Vonnegut. I really liked Cormac McCarthy. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] For a freaking girl in. A teenage girl in.

Hayley Rawle [00:31:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] Okay. So are you like, experiencing existential dread as a teen or what?

Hayley Rawle [00:31:49] You know, kind of. I think I was. Almost had this self awareness Of. I. I certainly, in a really true, authentic way, enjoyed reading those authors I was listening to again, that music of. Listening to the Strokes. And the Clash. And the Clash.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] I listened to the Clash in high school.

Hayley Rawle [00:32:10] It was a CD for my dad. A lot of this was inherited from my dad. I had a lot of personality things that came from him, and interests and commonalities and. Yeah, I think I remember feeling very. I thought I was a very deep teenager and I was different, you know?

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Okay, this is helpful because this provides. I mean, if you're reading Kurt vonnegut and Cormac McCarthy, then, like, cheesy modesty rules in a Provo Mormon ward. Might be a little bit, like, off putting.

Hayley Rawle [00:32:44] Yeah, yeah, totally. I know. And even the. The content of the books I was reading is funny because I think you could. You can get away with reading more adult content in books where I'm like, my mom would have never let me watch movies that were talking about this.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Cormac McCarthy's. Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:33:03] It was a book, so I don't. I just.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] It's like no country for Old Men. Have you seen that? Herodota. No country for Old Men.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:08] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] It's an intense movie.

Hayley Rawle [00:33:10] It's intense. Such a good movie, though. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] All right. Okay. So then let's bring the church back in. Now, how did you start bumping up against authority in that context? Yeah, if that's the way you describe it.

Hayley Rawle [00:33:24] Yeah, absolutely. I think there was a little bit of maybe philosophical, ideological friction, although I don't know if I was. I don't know how consciously I was realizing that. I do think that I, at that point in my life, was definitely taking, I would say, liberties doctrinally. And I think the biggest reason for that is because of the situation with my family. I was in a situation where my dad, because of his addiction and alcoholism, was clearly not keeping the Mormon commandments. And I was being told at church, your family can't be together forever. Not me specifically, but in order to be together forever as a family, you know, you all need to be temple worthy, the whole spiel. And I remember even at that time, not feeling so much, oh, no, my dad's not going to be in heaven with me, but thinking, well, if God loves us unconditionally, he understands my dad. He understands the disease of addiction. And I think it's going to be okay. And I think it's all gonna work out, and it's probably not gonna feel like heaven if my dad is banished to some lower kingdom because of his addiction. So I was certainly already taking liberties, not taking things super literally because I was again, in a situation with my family where I, I think I understood, well, my dad's struggle and I knew it wasn't his fault really. And I just couldn't imagine a God punishing him for a disease.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:14] Yeah, I think in the. More in the church we tend to dehumanize and people with addictions and people who consume alcohol, even if they're not

John Dehlin [00:35:24] alcoholic or if they drink coffee or too.

Hayley Rawle [00:35:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:29] And yeah, that would be a very different experience that you, that you had compared to your peers or even people on the ward who, you know, because you get to know your dad, you know that he's faithful, that he's doing everything else, but he's struggling with that, with, you know, addiction and saying that God is going to punish him. And you see him trying too. You know, he's not in the streets or like leaving you guys and he's trying to be responsible and do, you know, his best. So, yeah, it would be a really, like conflicting messaging from what you're hearing in church.

Hayley Rawle [00:36:10] Exactly. Yeah. I think my dad is such a good, good, good person who had this very serious struggle.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] But it's a disease.

Hayley Rawle [00:36:23] Yes, exactly. And I think, I mean, it gets complicated because addiction obviously affects the family in a really big way. And I think I was affected by his addiction in negative ways, certainly. But it was so clear to me what a good person he was and what a struggle it was. And so, yeah, when you're being taught these very literal, kind of formulaic doctrines about what you have to do to get to heaven and to be worthy even here on earth, it was difficult for me to just wholesale believe that when I was seeing every day someone like my dad who wasn't able to like keep those strict rules, but was a very good hearted, kind person.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Really quickly, did your, did his parents, your grandparents on your dad's side ever like, try to talk to you about their son, your dad, or like make you feel better or apologize for him or express frustration or sadness about him or. Was there any type of communication in that way?

Hayley Rawle [00:37:36] Not really. And that's, that's one thing I think there was a lot of. And I don't, I have nothing else to compare it to, but I do remember as a teenager feeling like, okay, we all know this is happening. Why are we still kind of pretending like it's not? And I associate that with Mormonism because it felt like there was an extra layer of shame and secrecy and that even within the Extended family culture, and it even kind of affected our immediate family culture. It felt odd to me that we weren't just addressing what we all knew was happening. And it was addressed in my immediate family when it needed to be. But in the extended family, I do think we were given. We were offered a lot of support by grandparents, very involved in our lives through childhood, through adolescence, super involved, but it was never really addressed head on.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Who's the elephant in the room?

Hayley Rawle [00:38:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:40] I have a question for you, John. So I don't know if you know much about this, but how would the shame that people experience in the church, especially someone with, like a disease of addiction who's trying, you know, hard to overcome it, and then they fall back on it and then they try to recover. How does the messaging of the church and being really orthodox, the beliefs haven't changed. You still believe, you know, that you won't be able to be in heaven with your family, but you're still trying to do family home evening. How does that affect, if any way, addiction, like, does it make it worse? Does it make it better? Just addiction in a Mormon context?

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Well, I mean, certainly not talking about addiction is not good for addiction. Certainly any extra levels of shame make addiction healing or recovery harder. Not seeking treatment, which doesn't sound like it was your dad's case, but like, there's been a stigma in Mormonism around just using licensed mental health professionals for decades. That's getting a little better now, but that wouldn't be helpful. But, yeah, intensity and guilt and fear and shame around you. If you don't straighten up, you. You won't be with your family in the eternities or like, this is a big sin. How dare you violate the word of wisdom. Any of that heaping shame stuff just makes it harder psychologically, in my experience. Is that. Was that answering your question? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want to ratchet down the intensity, ratchet up the support and the treatment, and that's going to give someone their best chance of recovery?

Hayley Rawle [00:40:21] In my experience, yeah, it felt that way. And I remember feeling not only, obviously addiction is a problem outside of Mormonism, clearly, but it felt like a different sort of problem than it maybe needed to be. And there are those added layers of shame and I think just misunderstanding. I mean, I grew up in Provo. I, as a teen, I was never around. I was never offered alcohol or drugs as a teenager ever, which I think is probably quite rare. I didn't know anybody who was doing alcohol or drugs. It was just not a part of my reality at all. Which made my dad's addiction feel so much more foreign and so much bigger and scarier, I think, than it even needed to be. Because growing up in Provo, it was just so out of my comprehension because it never, ever crossed my radar as a teen at all.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] Yeah. And then one other just thing that comes to my mind in response to your question, Gerardo, is that part of healing of any mental illness is acceptance. So, like, if you go to Alcoholics Anonymous or aa, you call yourself an alcoholic, and you call yourself an alcoholic for the rest of your life. Even if you're 30 years sober, you. You're still an alcoholic. That's this level of, like, talk about it publicly, label yourself, admit it, and then, like, consider yourself as always in treatment. And you've got a sponsor and you're going to AA meetings decades later. That's not how Mormons do addiction. Right.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:07] And.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] And it isn't until, like in the past 15 years that the church started to embrace the AA model. But that might have been a little bit early for your dad.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:17] I know my dad went to aa and I remember him telling me that I don't. I don't know if it was a. It was the Mormon version of a. Of aa, and he said there were women or a woman who was in the AA program who was addicted to sugar. Like an overweight woman.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:36] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] Or like, you know, we've talked to Mormon stories a million times that like a man might masturbate every three weeks. Once every three weeks. And he calls himself an addict.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:44] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] And goes to the church's 12 step program.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:46] Yeah, exactly. It was that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] In that way. It's kind of like confusing and a little bit almost demeaning to addicts.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:55] Yeah, it's kind of diminishing. Well, you also feel like true addiction.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:59] I bet you feel bad. You hear everyone else on the group talking about their sugar addiction or masturbation. And then you have something that would be considered a Mormonist series.

Modesty, Chastity, and Church Expectations

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Okay, so let's talk about. You mentioned your outline. Kind of like modesty, things that come up and then chastity things that come up. Let's start with the modesty and then go to the.

Hayley Rawle [00:43:26] So the modesty stuff. The first thing I can remember related to modesty, I was, I think 15, and my mom didn't want us to wear two piece swimsuits, but she said if I bought my own, I could wear it. So I went with my own money and I bought a bikini and I went to the lake with some Friends and we had a good time. We took photos. My friend posted the photos on Facebook and I was tagged in them. We. You.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] You posted those this week, right?

Hayley Rawle [00:43:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] You're covering this on Girls camp this week.

Hayley Rawle [00:43:58] I just talked about this on girls Camp.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] And you posted photos on Instagram.

Hayley Rawle [00:44:01] Yes, exactly. Very harmless.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] So check out girls. Girls camp on Instagram.

Hayley Rawle [00:44:07] Yeah, there we go. There we go. Go. Follow me. Girls Camp podcast and got a call from the Bishop and he wanted to meet with me. I was just assuming it was a check in. He was quite involved with the youth, the bishop at this time and he. We set up an interview for that Sunday.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:24] Did you get a sense that he talked to your mom?

Hayley Rawle [00:44:26] No.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:27] Before?

Hayley Rawle [00:44:27] No. Nope, I didn't. I really remember thinking, oh, he's just gonna do kind of a regular check in. And I go to the interview. It's after church. I was wearing a blue dress. I remember the floral blue dress probably hit mid thigh. And I walk into the room, it's just him. And I, as is typical, shut the door behind me. And. And as I'm sitting down, he says to me, that dress you're currently wearing is too short. So immediately I have a lump in my throat and I start to cry because I'm so embarrassed and so uncomfortable. And he then proceeds to say, my wife saw these photos of you on Facebook. You're wearing a bikini and I'm really worried about you spiritually. You can't be in a good place spiritually if you're wearing clothing like this. And I just wanted to call you in and just essentially let you know. And he proceeded to chastise me essentially for wearing this swimsuit. I don't really remember how I responded. I think I kind of just. I do remember I was crying and I think I just kind of said what I needed to say to get out of there and then walked home sobbing, feeling so embarrassed, so angry. I remember feeling it felt very unjust to me that I was being called out for something like that when I was doing my best in so many other ways to be a good participating Mormon girl. And yet what was being recognized and spoken to was the swimsuit that I had chosen to wear.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] So I mean, you had, you'd probably heard it taught in lessons not to wear bikinis. And because your mom wasn't necessarily going to buy you one, you probably knew that it wasn't ideal. So like, in your mind, was it. Was it probably just mini rebellion or was it just self expression or did you actually conclude it's all Silliness. And that's part of the beliefs I'm just. I'm not really into, and I'm not gonna subscribe to. Was it any of those or something else?

Hayley Rawle [00:46:44] It's a good question. I think this is where this really interesting dichotomy pops up for me, where as a teenager, there was part of me that so, so desperately wanted to be praised and valued and perfect. I was a perfectionist, and I knew that following the Mormon rules was going to get me that. That outcome that I wanted. But then there was this other really significant part of me that was kind of pushing back on authority and feeling like I don't really buy all of this wholesale. And I think at that point I was probably thinking, it's just not that big of a deal. And, yeah, maybe there's something to modesty as a general concept, but again, I wasn't taking it so literally and just wasn't thinking that quite literally the exact hemline or style of swimsuit I was wearing really mattered that much to God. But in the same breath, I also wanted to be perceived as being good. And those things were kind of always, you know, intention. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [00:47:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Any other thing you want to say about that story?

Hayley Rawle [00:48:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Its impact on you?

Hayley Rawle [00:48:02] Not. Well, I do think that that feels like a really big moment for me because I think what the door that that cracked open was feeling like the mark is being missed here. Here I am.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] By the church.

Hayley Rawle [00:48:21] Yes. Or at least by the people in the church is maybe where I was at at that point. Here I am. I'm going to church. I'm literally the first person to raise my hand, participating. I'm trying to take care of the other young women. I'm praying every night. I'm reading my scriptures every day. And yet.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] And in your mind, you don't have the best role model for a dad necessarily.

Hayley Rawle [00:48:44] Yeah, totally. And I feel like I'm exactly. I feel like I'm really doing my best in my circumstances and trying to be. I always wanted to be kind of a leader among the young women and be involved. And yet the feedback I was receiving, which was critical and harsh feedback, was based on what I had chosen to wear. And I remember thinking, that feels wrong. That feels like a mismatch, because what should really matter is my intentions and who I am as a person. And what is being called out is the literal clothing items I'm wearing. And that doesn't make sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:28] A question that it's not. We're not totally sidetracked from the timeline, because it's not necessarily your story. But I do want to ask you what's your opinion on where the church is at now with, you know, young women and modesty? We see on TikTok a lot of Mormon moms who, who make these videos about, you know, I'm Mormon and, and I wear this and they talk openly about it. And, you know, we don't necessarily are super strict. And is that a win for women? Is that a win for young women? Why do you think the church has moved that. That way? And how would it. How would that have made your experience different if, you know, you had gone through your teenage years now with, you know, where the church is at.

Hayley Rawle [00:50:24] Yeah. With a more flexible approach? Maybe. I think that. I think that it would have helped. I think it would have been better for sure if there was more flexibility around that or just even less emphasis on it. I. I do feel like. I don't know. I don't know if something else would have been the, you know, something else would have kind of filled that gap in. In. In a way, but I do feel like the emphasis on modesty was so, so extreme when I was a teenager. And I think that the church has probably realized that that's just not going to work very well anymore. But I do think there's still, I mean, in my extended family culture, in people I talk to, I think there still is an undue emphasis on modesty. And I think the church maybe picks and chooses when it suits the. The institution, how they kind of handle that, if that makes sense.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:35] And the reason why I ask this question is because a lot of people, maybe even believer Mormons who might listen to this episode might say, oh, that's not how my experience is right now. Yeah, that's. My bishop's never said that to me.

Hayley Rawle [00:51:48] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:49] Or like the, you know, the strength for the youth manual change. It says that it's my decision.

Hayley Rawle [00:51:53] Totally.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:54] So.

Hayley Rawle [00:51:54] Yeah. But interesting. It's interesting to watch that happen. I'm happy. I think if it can spare a young girl a shameful, embarrassing interview like I had, I'm so happy. I wouldn't imagine that it's shifted all that much.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:52:12] But I don't know. And I do think that's one of those things that people can pin on culture. And I do think there is certainly a cultural element to it, but I also think that it's a very shared experience as well. I think almost any Mormon woman you talk to in the church, still or out of it, has at least one experience. Where they were dress coded or made to feel embarrassed for what they had chosen to wear.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:41] Yeah, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] Yeah. Because. Because the church can change a manual somewhere that no one's going to read, but members are going to pass down and enforce what they were taught as children for literally generations.

Hayley Rawle [00:52:57] Yeah. So takes a long time to actually like fizzle out of the culture, which it probably will eventually, but it, I think it would take a really long time.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Okay. And you know, because you mentioned kind of law of chastity stuff in your outline. Do you. Is that something that's important to your story that you want to talk about?

Hayley Rawle [00:53:16] Yeah, definitely. So I always had a boyfriend in high school, from freshman year through senior year. Different boys, but I was dating a boy almost always for a good amount of time. Like I had a boyfriend for a year, I had a boyfriend for a year and a half and that led to many confession bishop interviews. And I never had sex, but we had, I had sexual experiences and felt horribly guilty, horribly ashamed, and felt deep, deep dread about having to go and tell a man exactly what had happened in detail whenever it happened. And I don't have any super specific experiences around that. But.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] And just to drive this point home for the never Mormons out there, you're 14, 15, 16, 17 years old, closed door, one on one with this grown man and he's grilling you about like details about what you did and didn't do with another boy. Is that right? Am I characterizing that right? And you're feeling what during these meetings?

Hayley Rawle [00:54:30] Ugh. It was the worst. It was so embarrassing. So

John Dehlin [00:54:37] was it violating?

Hayley Rawle [00:54:38] Violating, totally. It was not even something I talked openly about with my friends or with my mom because of the culture I was in. I feel like we just didn't talk about that stuff anyway. So I literally wasn't talking about it with anyone. And then here I was forced into describing these experiences with a middle aged male and in the context of how awful and horrible and shameful this all was. So not only was, yeah, embarrassing and it felt violating, but it was almost worse for the fact that I was in a culture and in a family culture where we didn't talk about those things either. So this was like the first and only person I was having to tell these things to. And the amount of dread and anxiety leading up to a confession interview, having to reach out to the bishop and say, I need to meet with you to talk about something, and then dreading the Sunday that it was coming up. The whole thing was just, just so Miserable.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] And sometimes what teens or even adults do is they just hide it and lie. But what does it say about your commitment to the church that you didn't always do that?

Hayley Rawle [00:55:52] I cannot imagine lying about it. I just wouldn't have been able to hide it mentally. I just would have been eaten alive by lying about it. One quick childhood story that comes to mind. My mom asked me when I was in second grade, do you have a crush? And I said, no, no, I don't have a crush. And I went to bed that night and cried in bed for two hours. Came into her room sobbing and, like, couldn't even breathe. And I was like, I do have a crush on so and so. Because I was so tortured that I had lied to her. So I definitely had a really big honesty complex. Confession complex compl. I just can't imagine choosing to lie or choosing not to tell.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:41] Yeah. Especially when God is part of the equation. Because you're lying to God when you're taking the sacrament. You haven't confessed.

Hayley Rawle [00:56:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] And your bishop represents God and Jesus, literally, right?

Hayley Rawle [00:56:52] Yes. I'm so glad you said that, because that was one thing. The modesty thing. I think I could say not that big of a deal. This feels unjust. The sex stuff felt so deeply shameful to me that it felt very real and very literal that I needed to repent of it because of how horrible it made me feel.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Well, because we're taught that as Mormons, that sexual sin, sin in quotes, is next to murder in severity. Am I injecting that into your story?

Hayley Rawle [00:57:28] No, absolutely. And I felt that. I felt that very literally. And so not only was I dealing with the shame and the guilt of those actual experiences, but I felt like the only way I can cleanse myself of this is by telling my bishop. That was very literal to me, that that was part of the repentance process. I had to confess. And I do remember feeling like if I can just get myself to do it and get myself there and confess, then I will be free of this. This horrible, horrible sin. It felt very literally like a almost physical sin, like resting upon me until I could build up the courage to tell the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] And, you know, maybe someone who's even progressive and Mormon would say, yeah, but it's good that you're not sexually active as a teen. And, yeah, the church is scaring you a little bit, but it's keeping you. It's keeping you from unwanted pregnancies, it's keeping you from STIs, it's keeping you from potential rape. Or abuse. So like, you know, in some ways, even if all that spiritual stuff wasn't quite true, it kept you out of trouble in ways you could have been in trouble. Would you say yes to that narrative or would you say no? Or would you say there's a yes? And

Hayley Rawle [00:58:51] I do not think the church's teachings on chastity changed the way I behaved. It just made me feel really, really, really terrible about it. And I think that's because of the lack of education. I feel like if I were educated on sex and on sexual experiences and on my body and how I might feel, that would have been so much more empowering and so much more convincing because teenagers are smart. I would think I was smarter than I was given credit for. And I think that would have been much more convincing to me as a teenager than being told that if you slip up sexually in any way, that's a terrible, terrible sin. So I think for me at least, there is so much value in education and that's, you know, how I hope to teach my kids and like move forward. But I just think the shame is, I think shame is counterproductive, period. And to me the only thing was shame. Even when it was being told that, oh, sex is a great thing and sexual experiences can be a great thing just at the right time, it still just felt so deeply, deeply rooted in shame.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] Yeah, I'm sorry that happened.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:24] I was, I was going to ask about how sexual education in Provo, in a secular high school. What kind of.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] And in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:33] In the church. But you know, it just, it just, it's just crazy to me when I hear that there are states where like parents can opt out of their kids having the sex ed class or, and how little they get. It's just mind blowing. But. Yeah, but what was your experience?

Hayley Rawle [01:00:54] Pretty non existent. I didn't really learn about sex in school. I didn't really learn about sex from my parents. I would say, yeah, almost zero sex education. I mean they'll talk about the anatomy and like the function, but in a very anatomical, very, very technical sense. So, yeah, almost entirely non existent.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:17] I went to a Catholic high school or junior high and, and we got sex ed classes. Yeah, I know, it's just insane.

Hayley Rawle [01:01:26] It's really insane. Yeah. And again, I mean, I think one could argue the church says, well, we do think sex is a wonderful thing within the right context or whatever. That's not shame based. But I just think for teenage teenagers it's such a common theme that I've with my friends like it Just, I don't think it served many people. And I also don't think it, like, really prevented anyone from. It probably prevented a lot of people from having sexual intercourse, but up to that point, I don't think it, like, really changed people's behaviors all that much.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Yeah, yeah. And maybe did some damage. That comes out later.

Hayley Rawle [01:02:09] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Foreshadowing. Okay, so let's talk about your spiritual and faith development in those seminary years. So I assume you did release Time Seminary, which is where you have religious, Mormon religious education integrated into your high school schedule during the day, is that right?

Seminary, Sexual Education, and Faith Development

Hayley Rawle [01:02:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] You'd walk across the street or whatever from.

Hayley Rawle [01:02:34] It was a class period. Yeah. So go over to the seminary fourth period or whatever. Yeah. You walk over, learn about the Book

John Dehlin [01:02:40] of Mormon as one of your high school classes.

Hayley Rawle [01:02:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] And so four years of seminary institute, I'm sure you were probably trying to study the scriptures and write in your journal and have daily prayer, is that right?

Hayley Rawle [01:02:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] So tell us how you. But, you know, by your senior year, how had your faith and your spirituality developed?

Hayley Rawle [01:02:59] I. I was really. It's interesting because there's obviously these kind of detractor things that I've mentioned, but I think I was really bought in, and I really. I had a lot of value in being a spiritual person. I wanted to be a spiritual person, not only because of those perception things I've mentioned, but because it felt very important to me to have a testimony. It felt very important to me to be reading my scriptures, saying my prayers. That felt very integral to who I was. And my identity was being not only a Mormon person, but being a good Mormon and doing the things and learning and really diving into the scriptures, I took that on as an identity piece. And even though there was still this cultural pushback happening at the same time, I think I really related to feeling like an identity Mormon and going all the way back to my grandpa, Steve Walker. I think I had some of these people in my life that were kind of modeling to me already progressive Mormonism, and I was starting to kind of adopt more of a progressive Mormon perspective. So although I was really, you know, bought into the core doctrines, there was already, like, progressive elements of my Mormonism coming in. Like, what I'm trying to remember when the LGBTQ issues started to, like, materialize for me.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] What years were you in high school?

Hayley Rawle [01:04:45] I graduated in 2013.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] Okay, so 2009 to 2013.

Hayley Rawle [01:04:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] So, yeah, that. I mean, Prop 8 would have happened in 2008, and then Mitt Romney would have been running for president during that time. And then, you know, you would have seen the rise with Facebook. You mentioned that, the photo on Facebook. Right. With the rise of Facebook, there was also the rise of social media, the rise of blogs, the rise of Mormon themed social media like podcasts, but also Kate Kelly and ordained women would have happened in 2013, 2014. You know, the church would have started to both crack down on social media people, but also to start trying to talk more openly about its history. So tell me if any of that would have even been in your awareness.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:40] The essay started coming out in 2016.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Yeah, right.

Hayley Rawle [01:05:44] Yes, I. I heard about those things. I heard about ordained women. This is a good example. Ordained women. I remember thinking with the ordained women thing, it bothered me deep down, the women in the priesthood, but I remember thinking things like, well, you know, I feel empowered as a woman in the church. I feel like the church has set me up to do good in the world and to participate and to be involved. And I was recognizing, I guess, like, at the very core that there was maybe something to that. But I had a lot of reasons why ordained women was wrong. So I remember thinking, like, yeah, women are so important and so valuable and women have so much to offer, but it's in these different ways. So I was, like, kind of trying to be a feminist, but not really, but trying to tell myself I was almost like those mental gymnastics already kicking in. So I don't think I was, yeah, progressive in the sense that I was understanding the ordain women movement and actually understanding it, but I was kind of noticing these things and cluing in a little to things and thinking that I could incorporate these things because I had not because I was so orthodox, but because I was progressive enough that I could kind of make sense of them, if that makes sense. So I wasn't the type of Mormon who was thinking, oh, that's all bullshit. I distanced myself from that entirely. I was like, oh, no, there's something to that. But I kind of know better. And really deep at its. Its core, the church does empower women. So I was telling myself, okay, and

John Dehlin [01:07:50] that's kind of, let's just say, women's issues. To put it, you know, in one way, the LGBT stuff would have started to happen. I don't know if Tyler Glenn would have come out by, you know, neon trees, but Benji Schwimmer from so you think you can dance would have come out at some point. Like, do you remember any of the cracks in your LGBTQ awakening?

Hayley Rawle [01:08:13] I remember feeling. That feels confusing. I Don't know, kind of. So that. That really started to become a major issue for me a little bit after high school. But I think in high school, again, it was kind of just noticing, like, a little crack maybe in the door.

Best Friend Comes Out and Early Doubts

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Any gay friends or people who ended up coming out as gay?

Hayley Rawle [01:08:43] So my very best friend in the world, best friend since I was in third grade, was gay, but was not out. And it was very much a guy. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [01:08:55] And it was very much a topic of conversation amongst our friends because we all thought he was gay, assumed he was gay. He was not out. He was an active member as well. And it was kind of just something that none of us, I think, knew how to. We didn't know how to be allies. We didn't know how to address it. We didn't know how to. And so instead, we kind of just, like, talked about it because we could tell it was a thing. We assumed it was a thing. But he wasn't out yet. He did come out later, which is why I'm referring to him as gay, because he's since come out as gay. But I do think that that was on my radar in that sense. But because he was not out, and because he was so active in the church himself, we all were kind of just not addressing it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:51] I would think it also changes your perspective a little bit hearing, you know, the gay. The rhetoric against LGBT people in the church without knowing anyone that's gay or might be, or not knowing anyone that might be gay, it's different. Like, in your experience, where there's someone that might be gay and happens to be your best friend, and, you know, you may see or start thinking about gay people in a different way than someone that's never been exposed to that.

Hayley Rawle [01:10:24] Absolutely. It's already humanized. For me, it's not an other issue because, yeah, when I say my literal best friend, like a true brother to me since third grade, best. Best. Best friends and a little more foreshadowing. We actually had a really huge falling out due to church issues. But one of the closest people to me in my life outside of my family.

John Dehlin [01:10:54] Nice, because. Because the church at one point declared gays, feminists, and intellectuals as the three great threats to Mormonism. I have to ask about, like, truth claims, history kind of stuff. So 2013, which was high school, would have been right before the CES letter came out, but Mormon stories would have had a good eight years of existence. There would have been things like Mormon think or other websites that would have talked about stuff, Facebook pages, any. Any exposure to, you know, truth claim stuff, Book of Mormon historicity stuff, Book of Abraham stuff, Joseph Smith, polygamy stuff, Any of those kind of truth claims controversies in those high school years?

Hayley Rawle [01:11:41] Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] Isn't that crazy?

Hayley Rawle [01:11:43] It's really crazy.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] And you were social media connected, right?

Hayley Rawle [01:11:46] I was social media connected. I was. I mean, it's so odd to look back and think how I didn't even think to think about it. I didn't even think to question. I really didn't until quite late, I would say, which feels that's really crazy in retrospect. But it, it was not on my radar. And I mean, again, my context is heart of Provo, affluent neighborhoods, Everybody's in it. Everybody's in it.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] Educated parents, educated grandparents, everybody's in it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:28] So you wouldn't have heard about polygamy or the Rock in the Hat even in seminary?

Hayley Rawle [01:12:35] I had heard about. That's the thing with growing up in Provo is I had heard about polygamy, I hadn't heard about Rock in the Hat, but I'd heard about polygamy. I'm trying to think, would you have

John Dehlin [01:12:47] heard that Joseph Smith married 14 year olds?

Hayley Rawle [01:12:49] Not specifically, no.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Or that he married other men's wives? That kind of.

Hayley Rawle [01:12:54] No, not that kind of thing. So that's probably why. Because when I'm being.

John Dehlin [01:12:58] Or like 30 people or more like that number.

Hayley Rawle [01:13:01] No.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] Or that he lied to Emma about it?

Hayley Rawle [01:13:03] No, none of that. I knew polygamy as part of church history. The men, the church, the men needed to marry the women because they weren't being taken care of was how I knew it. And that's the thing, that's why I think I didn't think to question partially is because there were things being told to me, but it wasn't even an issue. It was like, oh yeah, polygamy, of course. So since I was young, that was kind of the attitude around it just like never felt like a problem.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:33] Isn't it interesting that we were taught flat out lies that the church would consider today as lies? I think the church has come out and said, oh yeah, we agree that polygamy didn't happen because women needed to be taken care of. Because in fact there were more men than women at some point in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] But the more compassionate progressive Mormons would say that the brethren didn't know, like Greg Prince would say, the people like Boyd K. Packer or El Tom Perry or they were never taught the truth. So from their perspective, it wasn't lies, it was what they knew.

Hayley Rawle [01:14:12] Wild.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:13] Some of Them would have known Joseph Feelingsmith and.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] But then he wouldn't have probably talked to the. His colleagues about.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:19] Probably not.

Hayley Rawle [01:14:20] Yeah, yeah. It's wild. It's one of those things. I mean, I have compassion for my former self, but almost feels a little embarrassing because it just didn't occur to me.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] Yeah, well, that's how high demand religions work. They control the information, so they can control the thoughts. And I don't mean to even say it's a conscious thing, but the bubble's real, as I like to say. And there are lots of elephants in Mormon rooms, right?

Hayley Rawle [01:14:51] Absolutely.

EFY, Patriarchal Blessing, and Mission Decision

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:52] Did you get to go to efy?

Hayley Rawle [01:14:54] I did go to EFY one summer. I did go to efy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:57] I want to hear just like, really quick about your experience.

Hayley Rawle [01:15:00] Yeah, I was just talking to a friend about this. That's funny you ask. Literally this morning we were talking about efy. I had a fairly typical EFY experience. Dress codes. I got dress coded, I think a couple times.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:11] But for people who don't know what EFY is, can you just explain what

Hayley Rawle [01:15:15] it is, especially for youth? So it's a Mormon summer church camp sort of thing. I went to byu. So you stay in the dorms. It's all teenagers. You go to classes where you learn about church stuff. There's testimony meetings, activities. Just a very wholesome, very strictly regulated youth camp.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:41] Yeah, yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:15:42] And yeah, you kind of go to, like, meet other Mormons from other places. A lot of Mormon youth will come to Utah to go to efy. So you're like, you know, in Utah, where there's a lot more Mormon youth that are your age and yeah, kind of do a Mormon version of summer camp.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] Do you have any favorite outstanding speakers?

Hayley Rawle [01:16:06] No, can't remember at all.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:08] It's kind of like an MTC on steroids a little bit with like some fun added to it to make it engaging. Engaging for teenagers.

John Dehlin [01:16:16] But that's the missionary training center, you're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:18] Yeah, you know, you have to follow these very strict rules. Men have to have their hair short, that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:16:28] And then dress code stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:30] And then you had like. It was built to, you know, the church says to build teenagers testimony. And they have this really evangelical kind of like experiences where like, they would play video and audio and there's a choir and, you know, like, really strong talks about Jesus and the atonement and you need to repent and like. Yeah. So quite different from the normal youth activity. It's interesting that the church has realized how effective they are, that now they don't cost Any money or they're a lot cheaper than they used to be.

Hayley Rawle [01:17:13] Yeah, they used to be really expensive. It was like a big deal. I could go because we were not super well off financially, but we made it work and I remember how expensive it was and yeah, that is interesting. You mentioned that they have EFY songs that are very different than the church hymns that are more in that evangelical vein, pop Christian.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] Did you have the desired spiritual, quote, spiritual experiences during your EFY experience?

Hayley Rawle [01:17:40] Yeah, I had loads of spiritual experiences in my teen years. That's probably a really good thing to mention at efy, at girls camp, I felt the spirit very strongly, quite frequently I would say, and that was reading the scriptures. I felt that a lot. I, as I said, I was very literary and I loved reading the scriptures. Really connected to the words and would feel this overwhelming peace and love and the spirit as I was taught it. And I have lots and lots of experiences feeling the spirit and I definitely did at efy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Okay, interesting. All right, so. So by your senior year you're. You said you had some progressive inklings, but your testimony was what, what? By your, by your graduating high school, your testimony was what?

Hayley Rawle [01:18:45] Very strong.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [01:18:47] Yeah, very. Again, it's almost like what I was saying with history. But there would have been really no reason for me to question my testimony. So even though there was these tensions coming up throughout my adolescence, it didn't occur to me to question my testimony. The church was true. The sky was blue. It was, it was what it was. There was no one around me questioning their testimony. There was no people. I didn't know that that was really a thing. It just. The church was true.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] It was the water you were swimming in.

Hayley Rawle [01:19:21] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:19:21] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:19:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] Really quickly. One of the most important things the Mormon Church does is it creates this gender based template for what your life is going to be and you know it by the time you graduate in high school. And for women generally, I can tell you what it's not. It's not. I'm going to study math and engineering in college and then I'm going to go to grad school and get a PhD as a woman and then become a scientist. It's probably not that. So what was the template for you that you graduated from high school absorbing between the church and whatever, what your parents and grandparents would have given you?

Hayley Rawle [01:20:02] I wanted to be a lawyer.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] Ooh. So very non typical for sure.

Hayley Rawle [01:20:06] Non typical.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [01:20:08] I, since I was young, I told my mom one day, I don't, I think I told her like I don't want to be a mom. I've never been the type of woman who wanted to be a stay at home mom. That never really resonated with me. I hated babysitting and I wanted to. That was kind of that pushback thing. Like I thought I'm going to be a Mormon, but I'm going to be a cool kind of non typical version of a Mormon. And I was hoping to, I actually was going to apply to schools outside of Utah. So I was looking to apply for some Ivy League schools which would have been a long shot, but I was hoping I could sway in my essays and, and as I was applying, as I was beginning to apply for schools my senior year, the mission age changed. And I had never considered going on a mission because I didn't think at age 21 that would be an option for me. But when the mission age changed, I was in the middle of applying for schools. I was in the middle of applying for schools.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Which schools?

Hayley Rawle [01:21:19] I was looking to apply to a number of Ivy League schools and a number of UC schools.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] You did well enough on grades and SAT act that you were at least. It was at least worth applying.

Hayley Rawle [01:21:31] It was worth applying. I was planning on being, honestly, I think I was planning on being a Mormon woman and kind of trying to stand out that way. It would have been a long shot. I think I could have gotten into some UC schools and I have my grandpa connection with Harvard legacy. Yes. But it certainly was going to be a long shot. But I was an ambitious young teen and I thought, you know, maybe I can swing this. And yeah, I mean my grades, my ACT weren't, they were good enough that I maybe could have, could have swung it. Anyway, in the middle of applying, I, the mission age changed and I decided to get my patriarchal blessing. I went and got my patriarchal blessing. And in my patriarchal blessing it says you will serve a full time 18 month mission.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] Whoa. Well, the Lord knew exactly what he wanted for you.

Hayley Rawle [01:22:28] Yeah. And I changed. My, my whole life changed because of that. I decided if I'm going to go on a mission, I'm going to go to BYU so I can save money so I can be closer to my family, so I can learn about the Gods gospel. And that's what I did. I decided to go to BYU so that I could set myself up for serving a mission.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:49] And wasn't there a lot of pressure when the mission age changed, especially for women to go and serve missions or the. I mean there was no pressure before, but it started building up because well, you know, if the prophet changed the ages before a reason, yes, it felt very much.

Hayley Rawle [01:23:09] It felt very exciting to be part of that wave. And when you haven't imagined going on a mission as a woman and all of a sudden it's a possibility, that was a huge shift for me in my life because I just grew up, I never imagined going on a mission. So it really changed the trajectory when it was even an option. And it felt exciting and kind of like a shiny new opportunity for women.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:35] That reminds me to the prophecy, the monsoon prophecy of accelerating. Is that the word he used? Accelerating the work? God was accelerating the work. That's why the mission change happened. And yeah, it's interesting to see how those where that has played out.

Hayley Rawle [01:23:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Something's interesting. I've never heard of a person being told in their Mormon patriarchal book blessing that they get to skip the mission, they're going to go to grad school. I've never heard, not once has that ever has that patriarchal blessing ever been given.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Any ideas on why?

Hayley Rawle [01:24:14] Well, I remember thinking too, wow, I didn't know that your parents like spoke. Well, I, I think I even told the patriarch, yeah, I'm trying. I'm considering going on a mission. I told the patriarch that. But still, to me, that line in my patriarchal blessing, it felt written in stone. I couldn't imagine not going after I was told I was going to go also.

John Dehlin [01:24:38] Similarly, I've never heard of a Mormon woman getting her patriarchal blessing and being told, oh, you're not going to be a mom, you're going to be a professional who's childless.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:48] Yep. Nope.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] That blessings never been given.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:51] No.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] God's never wanted that for.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:53] No. But see, to me, I almost think I viewed that patriarchal blessing being told to go on a mission felt progressive because I was a woman and women didn't really go on missions. So my mindset at that time was, oh, wow, I'm. I get to go on a mission. Women now get to go on missions. This is like a progressive kind of new thing to do. So that felt like the progressive thing to actually be able to go on a mission and to be told that I was gonna go on a mission and be a good missionary felt like I was being led into a club that I previously wouldn't have been.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Well, and for our never Mormon viewers and listeners, prior to the mid 2010s, basically, men, Mormon men were told they had to serve a mission. Women were told that it's optional. They could only go if they were 21. Women could only go if they were 21. And there was this perception that you really, if you were a Mormon woman who chose to go on a mission at 21 or older, it was because you hadn't found your husband yet. Maybe you were, and this sounds rude, but the perception was maybe you're overweight, maybe you weren't that attractive, maybe you went to byu, graduated, couldn't find your eternal companion. And so it was a way to kind of delay and see if you could still, you know, find that eternal companion on your mission. And so there really was a stigma. There was sort of like this stigma of either you were kind of lame as a woman and that's why you ended up serving a mission, not. Or you were just like supercharged turbo Mormon. And you chose to serve a mission. But that was relatively rare. The vast majority of Mormon women just never served missions because it wasn't expected of them. What was expected of them was to get married at 17 or 18 and to start having babies immediately. So it was oddly a sort of a feminist. It was spun, or in your case, internalized as almost a feminist act as a young Mormon, 19 year old young Mormon woman to choose to serve a mission.

Hayley Rawle [01:27:01] Yeah, it totally felt that way. Yeah, it really did.

John Dehlin [01:27:04] It's fascinating.

Hayley Rawle [01:27:04] Yeah. And I remember feeling that worth noting as well. My sister, who's two years older than me, as soon as the age changed, immediately put in her papers and was on a mission almost, you know, right after. So she served a mission before me. So I was just caught up in this. I mean, I remember getting on Facebook and this is funny to remember, but so many women my age getting on Facebook, making a Facebook status. I will be serving a mission now. Women who still were a few years out even, but it was just, it felt like the cool, exciting thing to do was to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:27:41] It was a brilliant stroke because, number one, the church was losing its youth. Its millennials were hemorrhaging from the church, and the church lowered the age because they were losing too many people between high school in my first or second year of college, and they wanted to just lock them in. But also more and more young men were choosing not to serve missions. And so the missionary force numbers were starting to decline. Or at least the church saw that writing on the wall that they would actually be starting to see their missionary force decline. So by making that announcement, I think worldwide, full time missionaries went from like 40 or 50k a year, like to 90k like overnight. Yeah, it was like there were so many missionaries that they didn't know where to put them all.

Hayley Rawle [01:28:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when, by the time I went on a mission, it was still sort of tapering off, but still that wave where there was tons of missionaries, tons of sisters, and. Yeah, at the time, when I was a senior in high school, it felt, I think, in a way, it felt like a relief to me because I think I was feeling like I had something to prove. I wanted to get into an Ivy League school and be a lawyer, or my alternate option was to be a professor. So get a PhD and be a professor. And I think it almost felt to me like, oh, okay, I can just go to BYU like everyone else and, you know, get. I got a scholarship to byu so I didn't have to pay.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] That's. That's pretty good.

Hayley Rawle [01:29:13] Yeah, it was really nice, honestly, that I feel really lucky for the education. I didn't ever have to take out loans to go to school. And I know that's rare. That feels lucky. But for me, it did change the trajectory of my life in such a huge way. But again, it kind of felt like, well, okay, if I'm going to go on a mission, that's kind of my cool, different thing. I'm just going to do the BYU thing. I'm just going to stick close to home and get ready to go on my mission. That will be my experience outside of Utah, which, before deciding to go on a mission, my experience outside of Utah that I was craving was going to be going to college elsewhere.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] Yeah. So maybe we can circle back as to whether or not you feel like that maybe took you away from where your heart or soul would have chosen for you to go otherwise.

Hayley Rawle [01:30:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] Yeah. Okay. So did you say you did a year of BYU before I did?

BYU Years and Parents' Divorce

Hayley Rawle [01:30:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] So did you go in the dorms or just live at home?

Hayley Rawle [01:30:16] I lived in just BYU approved housing. I lived with a friend, best friend of mine.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] Why did you do the freshman dorms?

Hayley Rawle [01:30:23] Because this friend of mine wanted to live together and she was going to uvu, and then she got engaged, so I kind of got screwed. I mean, it was great. And yeah, she's the best, but she wanted to live together, so we moved in together because she was going to be at uvu, and then she got engaged pretty quickly, so then it was just kind of a bummer because I didn't have, like a wing woman to do all the stuff with. But then I had another friend who ended up moving in. Okay. I do wish I had dorms. Dorming seems like it would have been a really fun experience. It was also really expensive.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:57] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:30:58] And I don't. I could have pulled it off because I was. I had a scholarship and then I was also getting Pell grants because my parents were divorced by that time. And so based on my mom's income, I was essentially getting paid to go to school. So I could have pulled it off. But I was really practical and I was like, well, it's better to save my money. And so I ended up living at King Henry for any Utah listeners they may know of King Henry with that best friend of mine and did my first year at BYU before going on my mission that next summer.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] Now, you didn't mention your parents divorce. Do you want to just kind of steer away from that or is there anything you want to. To say about what that was like for you?

Hayley Rawle [01:31:40] Sure, yeah. So they. It kind of almost feels like a non event, which kind of sounds crazy, but they divorced when I was 13 and at that point they had been separated off and on. They had was a relief more than anything for me when my parents got divorced because they were hanging on by a thread for quite some time. So the divorce was not a huge event in and of itself. It was kind of leading up to that. And then once there was a divorce, I actually feel like it created more stability in my life because my mom felt better. She wasn't feeling the need to be, you know, kind of in charge or making sure my dad was okay. And my dad actually moved away for a significant portion of my teenage years. He was in a rehab and then he ended up getting hired by the rehab. So he was living in Florida and. And he felt he was in a good stable situation and it kind of just felt more stable at that point.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] Was it tough? I guess I would normally ask was it tough growing up in those teen years without a dad around? Maybe it was easier because of his situation or maybe you stayed close.

Hayley Rawle [01:32:56] It felt easier because we stayed close in a very boundaried way by necessity. So we talked on the phone and we could kind of connect in more of this intellectual way without the day to day presence, if that makes sense. And I almost wonder, as I'm saying that it probably kind of sucks for my mom because she was the one who was handling the day to day stuff. And I actually had a very fraught relationship with my mom, although she was the one who was actually taking the heavy lifting of taking care of us. But I almost could relate to my dad more as a friend, which was nice in some ways.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] Too kind of a bad cop, good cop dynamic.

Hayley Rawle [01:33:39] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:33:41] Any idea if your dad's faith wavered after the divorce, or did he stay super faithful or. You don't want to talk about it?

Hayley Rawle [01:33:48] No, no, I'm happy to. He's always been. I mean, so supportive of us going on missions, and. But never. He didn't go to church anymore. So it was always kind of an interesting dynamic. But I think he was very supportive of us. And now that I've gone a different way, he's been incredibly supportive. So I think he's kind of just was and is happy to support his kids where they're at. And I think his faith to him has always been very complex and unorthodox because of, you know, his situation. So that was kind of how it felt at that point, too.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] How stoked were grandma and Grandpa Walker that you served a mission?

Hayley Rawle [01:34:42] I remember feeling like everyone was super excited. Those grandparents, my mom. It felt like just fun and cool, and people cared, and everyone was gonna care where I was gonna get called. And people would say, you're gonna be such a good missionary, because I'm talkative, I guess, And I really loved that. It felt like a lot of good attention and praise for choosing to go

John Dehlin [01:35:11] on a mission, and then it was a big deal. You got called to Germany?

Hayley Rawle [01:35:15] Yeah. So kind of crazy. I wanted to go to Germany so bad. And from the second the mission age changed, I said to myself, it's gonna be Germany if I go on a mission. And when my. When I was taking my little headshot for my mission papers, my friend and I were like, let's try and make you, like, look European, like, get called to Germany. Like, I was intentionally trying to go to Germany. I did take German in high school, which is why I ultimately got called there. But I wanted to go to Germany so bad. And when I opened my mission call and it was to Berlin, Germany, everybody was. My mom literally said to me. She's like, how do you always kind of end up getting what you want? Because she was like, this never happens. Like, people. You don't get called where you want to go. But I. I wrote on my papers that I had studied German in high school, which I had. And I think there were some other areas where you could play that up, too.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] I think you could say if you're. Your parents or family had served anywhere.

Hayley Rawle [01:36:14] Yeah. But my sister, my older sister, she got called to Chile, and in her patriarchal blessing, it said she would be preaching the gospel in sign language. And we were all Planning on her going to, like, somewhere stateside. Asl. And she had done ASL in high school and she got called to Chile. So, you know, it doesn't always work that way. But for me, I wanted to go to Germany. I got called to Germany and then was stoked until I got there.

John Dehlin [01:36:43] Oh, okay. Because you met Zach?

Hayley Rawle [01:36:49] No, because German was so hard and the people were not. It was hard, yeah. Germany was very hard. I love. I'm sure we'll get into it. I loved Germany as a place, but as a mission, it was very difficult.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] Do you want to get into your mission or was there other things pre mission that were important to your story?

Hayley Rawle [01:37:05] I don't think so. I mean, byu. That first year at byu, I was just drinking the Kool Aid, you know, same thing was still in the water. Everyone around me was preparing for missions. Or a lot of men were returned missionaries. I will say the return missionaries of that era were feeling chipped off because their dating pool, they. So the return missionaries, I was hanging out at that point with like 24 year olds and I was telling them, I'm going on a mission because of my patriarchal blessing. And they were all like, oh, now all these girls are going on missions too. Because they missed that first wave of women their age were on missions and then their younger dating pool was then going to leave on missions. And I had a number of men be actually frustrated that I was going on a mission and that not like they wanted to marry me specifically, but being like, oh, now all you are going on missions now too. Like, we already did this and now we're here to get married, but now you're all leaving too.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] There's always this weird predatory thing of a returned missionary feasting on the freshman sophomore BYU girls. You know what I mean?

Hayley Rawle [01:38:17] Yeah, but all the freshmen sophomores were putting in their mission papers.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should do an episode about that on Mormon stories. Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:38:24] Kind of funny.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] NRM that was at BYU during those two years. It would have sucked.

Hayley Rawle [01:38:29] Yeah. Honestly, I remember having to kind of defend myself to some. This group of guy friends. I was like, well, my patriarchal blessing told me to go. And they were like, well, kind of trying to tell me that I didn't have to take that so literally, but they were just salty that such a

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:45] different culture from where I grew up. And because in Mexico, the church really, literally had to invest in really expensive activities for single young adults so they could meet each other and marry because they're not so easily accessible. And the culture of marrying Young. It's not, it's not.

Hayley Rawle [01:39:05] Not the same. Yeah, yeah. I mean, these, the guys, they, they would have been fresh off mission, so 20, 21. 21. And they were already feeling bothered that me as an 18 year old was not like ripe for the picking of marriage.

John Dehlin [01:39:22] Well, again, when I was growing up, like if a girl made it to her 19th birthday, birthday, not engaged or married, that was kind of like, whoa, she made it to her sophomore year.

Hayley Rawle [01:39:33] Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. So crazy.

John Dehlin [01:39:36] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:39:36] I think that age shifted a little bit before the mission age changed and then the mission age change made it like 21 was kind of the new 19.

John Dehlin [01:39:45] Yeah. Yeah. So what are some highlights? Lowlights from your mission, if any. You don't have to talk about it,

Entering the MTC and Mission Life

Hayley Rawle [01:39:50] but no, I'd love to. So I loved the mtc. Thrived in the mtc. Loved studying, loved memorizing stuff. Felt like I was gonna just be the most incredible missionary.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] That's the missionary training center for our never Mormons. Nine weeks, eight or nine weeks of intensive language study and gospel study in Provo. Like what, a mile from your house?

Hayley Rawle [01:40:15] Literally my backyard.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:40:17] Very, very close.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:40:18] And that's kind of my thing. I love, I loved that environment. Kind of felt like an extension of high school where everybody knows each other and there's like kind of drama. And I loved it. And then you get shipped off to your mission and all of a sudden it's just you and a companion. And I remember my first area, Sfikau, which is where Zach was. I remember vividly, a little bit of context. My whole life I had been so. I was so frustrated when people said, provo's a bubble. Provo's a bubble. It's like, provo's not a bubble. I know what's up. And I remember the moment I stepped

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:00] off the bus because I remember exact stories too.

Hayley Rawle [01:41:04] Really?

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:04] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:41:05] I stepped off the bus and I was in this little town in Germany, this little East German town, and people were walking by. And I remember when it hit me, none of these people are Mormon and none of these people even know who Mormons are. I had not had that realization yet. As a fairly intelligent 19 year old woman, I had not had that realization yet. And it was so unmooring to realize, oh my gosh, Mormonism is so, so, so small. And I didn't get that until I went on my mission. I didn't understand that. Yeah. So my mission, I struggled pretty significantly with mental health. I remember on my mission in my first area, I remember thinking, okay, I need to go home because I can't do this, but I can't just go home. That wasn't an option. So I was telling myself I'm going to stop eating and I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and I'm not gonna eat. And if I develop an eating disorder, they'll have to send me home. And I would so much rather develop an eating disorder, tell people at home she had to come home for an eating disorder than just say I don't want to do this. Like it literally did not feel like I had an option to go home. So that was like my most, that was the easiest way I could imagine to be able to leave.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] For the folks who don't know, eating disorders are among the most severe mental illnesses and the hardest to treat and the most lethal. So like as someone with the psychology training, that's scary.

Hayley Rawle [01:42:45] So scary.

Struggles and Depression on the Mission

John Dehlin [01:42:46] What was so miserable about the mission? Just spell that out. Three to five most miserable things about a mission. Why weren't you loving serving the Lord?

Hayley Rawle [01:42:54] Yeah, exhaustion. So exhausted. You go from. I was jet lagged for I swear the first three months. Physically very rigorous and and I was, I mean I was a soccer player. It wasn't that I couldn't keep up physically, but tied with that exhaustion and waking up at 6:30 every morning having to do exercise, which I thought was directly tied to my success. I was literally sprinting up hills. Like sprinting up and down hills. Because I thought like tell me about that.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] Yeah, wait, Zach knew that she was sprinting up at that house.

Hayley Rawle [01:43:31] I probably like that you're companion would

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:34] stay down the hill.

Hayley Rawle [01:43:37] She would, she would like sit at the bottom of the hill and like, hey. It was this weird coping mechanism where I was like almost like a punching bag. Also I was, wait, explain that.

John Dehlin [01:43:46] So you're sprinting. Why?

Hayley Rawle [01:43:50] Okay, so every morning at 6:30 you have to wake up and do exercise. There's multiple reasons I was sprinting. One reason is this kind of punching bag thing where I was just, just feeling a lot of emotions and it was a way to like get out emotions.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] Well, there's a way to like people think and I don't know if there's a tie here but like bulimia, you can purge through throwing up, but you can also purge through hyper exercising.

Hayley Rawle [01:44:16] I was just going to say okay, sorry. Yes. So that was the next thing is I was so concerned about gaining weight on my mission. A lot of sisters, that was kind of the mission thing. Like women go on missions and they gain a bunch of weight, especially in Europe. There's a lot of chocolate. There's a lot of croissants. The members feed you a lot of food. I was really, really worried.

John Dehlin [01:44:38] I was depressed.

Hayley Rawle [01:44:39] Yes, that too. I had. Nothing was in my control. A lot of the food I was eating was not in my control because you are getting fed. Food became sort of a coping mechanism again. Like, we would go get ice cream every day, so we had something to look forward to. And I was really worried about that. So I was trying to exercise really, really hard to compensate for that as well. So there was that element of it. There was also this element of thinking, well, everything I do, I need to be 100% obedient. And I'm being told to exercise. So the harder I exercise, the more obedient I'm being. And if I'm perfectly obedient, I'll get blessings. So I was through that chain of thinking, attaching my sprinting up the hill to finding people who needed to hear the gospel and being able to, like,

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:29] teach them properly, because you're being perfectly obedient. So then God is going to bless. Bless you by putting people on your path.

Hayley Rawle [01:45:35] Exactly, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] And the impact of all that on your physical and mental health was pretty bad.

Hayley Rawle [01:45:41] I adjusted. I do think I adjusted to survive. And I mean, a mission is, as anyone who's gone on a mission knows, it's almost impossible to sum up because it was 18 months of my life. So there was obviously really, really wonderful things that happened, really good memories, lots of wonderful things. I gained cultural experiences, meeting wonderful people, but also really, really traumatic.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:13] There is a very dark side to missions that, I mean, we've covered a lot, but it's just every experience is different, and every time I hear a new one, I'm like, this is crazy. I think I've told you, John, my sister had a snuff. Almost like a snufferite as mission president that would tell missionaries, if you don't see Jesus in your mission, you're not being obedient enough. It's like, yeah, I know. Zach had a rough time in Germany, too.

John Dehlin [01:46:44] It's almost like half the millennials or gen zers that we've interviewed on Mormon stories or more had suicidal ideation at some point on their mission.

Hayley Rawle [01:46:54] Oh, yeah, over half. Yeah, I did. I remember. Yeah, yeah. Join. Add me to that statistic. I remember thinking, I didn't want to. I was thinking, like, man, on my worst days, like, what if I just. Probably not actual suicidal ideation, but what if I got really, really hurt? Like, what if I got hit by a bus, got hurt enough that I had to go home? Or like, really dark things. Like, one of the darkest moments was thinking. I remember thinking. And I remember where I was standing, I remember thinking, what if a really significant. I'm trying to remember there must have been something going on in the world at that point. But I remember thinking, like, what if war broke out? Or there was, like, a terrorist attack so that I had to be sent home? And then I was thinking, okay, if that happened, but they would probably just send me somewhere else. But literally wishing a terrorist attack on an entire country, because I literally did not think it was an option to go home, which is really a very scary mental place to be in, because it just. It wasn't an option. And every day I would think to myself, my dad did this. This friend did this. My sister did this. This person did this. This person did this. Just shock. How could all of these people have done this? This is so hard. How did everyone do this? But if everyone else did this, I just have to do it, too.

John Dehlin [01:48:24] What about the work itself? Like tracting, proselyting, finding, investigators trying to teach them. You haven't mentioned that yet.

Hayley Rawle [01:48:33] That's what made it so hard, is that the work was very slow. So when you don't have people to teach, you have to do a lot of tracting. Knocking on doors, approaching people on the street, which even from someone who I consider myself outgoing and outspoken, it's just. Was miserable to me to have to do that.

John Dehlin [01:48:55] How are the Germans vibing with Mormons?

Hayley Rawle [01:48:59] Not super well.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] I mean, the Book of Mormon musical would have come out by that point.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:02] Yeah, Honestly, they were. Most Germans were polite enough, but no one was really interested.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:10] And people are very different, too, because Germans don't really smile, right?

Hayley Rawle [01:49:15] Yes. Oh, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:17] You can't tell really what they're thinking.

John Dehlin [01:49:19] I've got angry emails from Germans. What do you mean, Germans don't smile? Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:24] Zach makes fun of them all the time.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:26] I actually feel like Germans.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:28] And he loves people in Germany.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:30] Totally. They have a little bit of a harder exterior, but once you're a friend, you're actually a friend and a friend for life. And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:38] But when you're attracting people that you don't know and they don't know you like that initial. Yeah, that initial thing is, like, really weird. And they're not like Utah people. That, or I think us people try to pretend, you know?

Hayley Rawle [01:49:53] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:53] There's no pretend at all.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:55] They're fine just to say, I'm not interested yeah. Yeah. There's so much I could get into. I think the thing that I hated the most is feeling like any interaction I had with anyone had to be manipulated to the end of teaching them about the gospel. And so I actually love talking to people. And I would. I would be happy to go out and just chat with strangers, but it felt so disingenuous because I was approaching people. I remember one time on the subway, this kind man. I was like, I like your shoes. And we were just talking, and he was just a nice guy. And the whole time in the back of my mind is like, okay, how do I get his information so that I can teach him? What if he's ready for the gospel? I couldn't just have human interactions with people. For a year and a half. Every human interaction was charged with this. This need to convert them to the gospel and feeling like if I didn't bring the church up, I had failed, like, in the worst possible way. So it really sucked to feel like

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:07] you're literally condemning them.

Hayley Rawle [01:51:08] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:08] Because you're not giving them the opportunity to.

Hayley Rawle [01:51:11] And I took that quite literally. I felt really, truly responsible for the salvation of the people in the area. And that felt very burdensome. Long story short, I adjusted. And I think I found ways to. I took the rules a little less literally. I allowed myself to go get ice cream in the middle of the day if I needed. Or if we were really burnt out. We would take little liberties, still probably well within the rules. But I took it a little bit easier and was able to adjust so that it was manageable for how long I needed to be there.

John Dehlin [01:51:53] And how much interest. Like, how many people would you baptize a month? And I know it's probably a joke. How many lessons would you teach in a week? How many? How big were your investigator pools?

Hayley Rawle [01:52:05] It depended on the area. We mostly were teaching immigrants, specifically from West Africa. So in certain areas, refugees, right? Yes, in certain areas, there were. We were not teaching a lot of native Germans. And so it depended on the city that I was in, how many people we were teaching. And I was teaching mostly in English as well, because that was usually the common language of when we were teaching West African refugees. Yeah, we taught a lot of people from the Middle east as well, who we usually spoke English with as well.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] Interesting.

Hayley Rawle [01:52:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Is that a little bit disappointing that you weren't teaching Germans?

Hayley Rawle [01:52:44] I actually loved it because, well, there was a stigma. That's racist. I think on the mission of actual German investigator is, like, more valuable somehow, which is gross. And Wrong. But I really loved that aspect of my mission because I feel like I was a exposed to more cultures than just Germany. I was getting German culture because I was there. But I have really, really beautiful, immensely valuable experiences with some of the most wonderful people I've ever met where I was participating in their culture either through their food or other kinds of things. And it was not German culture. So I actually really treasure that for my mission. And I remember at the time feeling really lucky that I was able to have those cultural experiences and such a rich cultural experience as well.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:40] How are the words and stakes in Germany or the areas where you served?

Hayley Rawle [01:53:47] Small, mostly family. Like we always had a joke of like, oh, well, Brother Yeinert. Oh yeah, okay. Because he's so and so's brother in law's cousin. Like everyone was related. So it was just families. And I mean the, the German wards, they were supportive of the missionaries for the most part, but we were always frustrated at them because they wouldn't do member missionary work.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:12] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:54:12] And it just wasn't really a thriving. The church wasn't thriving there. And I think that was.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:20] Did you get a sense that it was actually declining?

Hayley Rawle [01:54:24] Maybe a little bit. They're trying to think. The only thing I remember being kind of noting about German culture, especially in those smaller towns, is there was a lot of like affairs, like sexual affairs in wards and like wards had been broken up because of stuff like that. Just kind of like this interesting drama and these really like ultra tight knit kind of subculture communities. I don't remember feeling like it was declining necessarily, but. But I do remember feeling as a missionary multiple times like, this is a joke. Like this is what are we doing? Like this isn't working. I knew it wasn't working. I mean, obviously because I was doing it and it wasn't working. So there was definitely gears turning at that point of like, why are we doing something that's proven to not be working? Because it clearly isn't.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:20] Cause even the refugees, they're hard to teach.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:23] And conversely, you know, and keep them active.

Hayley Rawle [01:55:26] Yeah, well. And a lot of them were not permanently in areas, so there's a lot of movement. So you would be teaching someone and then they would move. And so it just, it never felt very real. It almost felt like a game. Like what are. What's this weird game we're playing? Because it's not actually working. But again, we're kind of like pretending that it is. And I'm going to these mission conferences and my mission president is saying, we're going to baptize 80 people next month. And everyone was like, okay. And that was really hard too, because you're trying to summon up this faith. You think you're not doing that because you think your faith is insufficient. But everything is proving to you that that's not real. But you're trying really hard to do this mental trick to get enough faith to make it real. And that takes a mental toll, too.

Returning Home, Marriage, and the Temple

John Dehlin [01:56:17] So, overall, did you make it 18 months? And you know, how would you say your mission was overall?

Hayley Rawle [01:56:25] Yeah, I mean, kind of crazy to say, but I feel glad I went just because it's so. It's been so pivotal in my life. I can't imagine not having gone, but certainly inherited a lot of trauma from it. And yeah, I mean, I think it was an important experience for me. And again, I am grateful for the parts of it that those cultural experiences. I think I learned a lot, I think I grew a lot. And ironically, I think it cracked the door more and more toward ultimately where I've ended up now because of what I was saying, where I was just cogs were turning. I was realizing this doesn't really work. And as I said, I'd never been in a place where nobody was Mormon. And that alone makes you think differently if you've grown up in Provo your whole life.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:18] Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] Okay. So should we talk about coming home?

Hayley Rawle [01:57:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] So you come home from your mission?

Hayley Rawle [01:57:25] Yes. So important to note. I was writing someone my whole mission. He and I had started dating a couple weeks before I left. He was a returned missionary. We wrote my whole mission. But then my now husband emailed me when I had about three months left of my mission. We did not know each other previously. I had known of him in high school. He went to Lone Peak, so he's about 30 minutes away. And he emailed me and.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] Wait, how did you know of a Lone Peak guy living in Provo?

Hayley Rawle [01:57:55] He had a. He was doing video in high school and he had a video that kind of went mini viral for the time on Facebook. He was acting in the video. It was actually a suicide, like a suicide awareness video. And he. There was a lot of suicide at Lone Peak when he was attending Lone Peak. And so they made this kind of awareness video, he and his best friend to this day. And I had seen that and he actually acted in it. So I knew of him, thought he was really cool, really cute, but he did not know who I was. He was a year older than me as well. He ran into my friend while I was on my Mission, a mutual friend, and she said, you should write Hayley on her mission. He was telling her dating was really hard. He's like, hey, you should write Hayley. So he wrote me when I had three months left, and I was so surprised and excited. We wrote for the last three months of my mission, and then I got home December 13th. We were engaged February 13th and married by May 5th.

John Dehlin [01:59:02] So how many. Do the math for me. How many months is that? So it's five months from meeting to

Hayley Rawle [01:59:07] marriage, from stepping off the plane, meeting him the next day, and then being married five months later.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] And what happened to the other guy?

Hayley Rawle [01:59:13] Yeah, I had to tell the other guy. Never mind.

John Dehlin [01:59:17] You got home. Did you, like, go out with both and then.

Hayley Rawle [01:59:20] So the other guy. It was pretty clear to me once I started writing Bentley, my husband, that I wanted to pursue Bentley. But I had written this other guy for a long time, and he was a returned missionary, so I felt really bad. So I had to tell. When I got home, I. It was pretty clear I wanted to be with Bentley. So I. I met up with the other guy and said sorry and felt bad because he had invested quite a bit of time.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] Yeah, well, that's a pretty quick marriage. 5 months from meeting to marriage. But it's also very Mormon, so.

Hayley Rawle [01:59:54] Yeah, it felt insane even as it was happening, even for a Mormon. It almost felt like a train that I couldn't get off. It was just. And I loved Bentley. I was very in love with him. I'm very in love with him now. But it was this weird experience of feeling like this is just happening, and I've met the person I want to marry, and it happened really fast, and we want to move forward in our lives together, and this is, like, the only way we can. And everyone around us is doing it, so we just did it. And I was 20 years old, and he was 21, so we were very young, very fresh off missions, where you're being told your whole mission, go home and get married. That's the thing to do immediately. Pretty much, yeah. I mean, yes and no. I don't feel like it was that explicit, but that was kind of the idea. That's the next thing that you should think about doing.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] I mean, it's what you did.

Hayley Rawle [02:01:01] Yeah, exactly. And my husband, he had been home from his mission almost a year by the time I got home. He was anxious to get married.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] That's long. Yeah, that's a long time.

Hayley Rawle [02:01:09] Oh, for him. He was worried for real. He literally was. So he came into the relationship like. Like wanting to get married. And, yeah, it. Looking back, it's absolutely insane, but even experiencing it, it felt pretty crazy. And I remember feeling pretty embarrassed when I was, like, telling people. But again, I was still just in this community where it was kind of like, oh, yeah, you know, when you know, you know, so. And if anything, there was some pushback from my dad, specifically on the timeline, because he. He felt like he got married too young, and he really wanted me to go to school and make sure that I didn't start having babies really quickly. So he had. He talked with Bentley when Bentley, like, asked for my hand in marriage or whatever, where he was kind of like, okay, but are you planning on, you know, just immediately having kids? Like, he really wanted me to get an education. It was really important to my mom. I get an education as well, because she didn't, and she had to later in life. So, yeah, it was a whirlwind.

John Dehlin [02:02:24] So she got divorced and then had to provide income for the family.

Hayley Rawle [02:02:27] So she went back to school when I was in high school. So anyway, that was a whirlwind. It was a really intense time of life, because coming home from a mission is really intense. Being engaged is really intense. It just felt like there was not a breather. And again, it just kind of felt like this momentum towards marriage that I kind of just almost feel like I got swept up in.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] Okay, do you want to talk about. I mean, lots of times people want to talk about going through the temple, which you would have done before your mission. Any. Any thoughts or feelings they had going through the temple and then the temple marriage.

Hayley Rawle [02:03:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:12] Any. Any of that stuff you want to talk about or if it's not really relevant?

Hayley Rawle [02:03:16] No, I think I thought the temple was weird, but everyone was doing it. Everyone was there. So I'm like, well, okay, guess this is what we do here. Guess this is what's going on in the temple. Felt weird to me, but I just. I was 18 when I went through, because it was before my mission, so very, very, very young. You know, I just had my aunts and uncles, My. All my extended family lives close by. Everyone was there. So I remember looking around and being like, well, uncle Nate's here. Like, aunt Rebecca's here. Like, this is what they've been doing. They're older than me. They're wiser than me. I guess this is just what we do. And then. So it wasn't really a big deal to me. The temple marriage thing didn't feel like anything super, you know, troubling just was what I Had planned to do. And, yeah, I never loved the temple. I always felt kind of uncomfortable there, but I kind of just shoved it aside and figured that, you know, people kind of talk about it that way. Oh, it's different, and you have to get used to it. So that was kind of my mentality around it.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] It.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:26] What year you got married?

Hayley Rawle [02:04:28] 2016.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:29] Okay, so the. So the November 15th policy or LGBTQ people. The exclusion policy would have happened while

Hayley Rawle [02:04:37] I was on my mission.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:38] Oh, wait, you were on mission.

Hayley Rawle [02:04:40] Yeah, that. Children of lgbtq, huh? So I remember hearing about that on a p. Day, and, yeah, it was towards the end of my mission in my last area. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:49] How was that for you? Was it like.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] Like.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:51] Oh, I guess that that's what it is.

Hayley Rawle [02:04:54] It felt. I do remember feeling like it was concerning, and I was kind of like, wait, that doesn't make sense. That feels really weird. And feeling concerned about it until I talk to someone. I can't remember who, but a believing member who said, oh, well, it's just compassionate to the kids so that they don't have to pick sides. And I was like, oh, okay. So I do remember clocking that and then getting that answer and being like, oh, okay, I guess that makes sense. But, yeah, that was right before I got home from my mission.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:23] Okay,

John Dehlin [02:05:26] okay, so 2015 is when he got married.

Hayley Rawle [02:05:30] 2016.

John Dehlin [02:05:31] 2016. Sorry.

Hayley Rawle [02:05:32] Yeah, 2016.

John Dehlin [02:05:33] Okay. And by then, like, Kate Kelly would have been excommunicated. That probably. Did that even register with you?

Hayley Rawle [02:05:39] Yeah, all these things I was clocking. Just kind of little notes.

John Dehlin [02:05:44] But yes, letter would have come out by then. Did you even see that?

Hayley Rawle [02:05:48] I heard of it. Heard of it. Heard of Kate Kelly. Just kind of these things that I was. They were crossing my radar, but I think I was kind of just letting them pass through at that point.

Early Marriage, Intimacy Challenges, and Infertility

John Dehlin [02:06:00] Okay, so you mentioned kind of modesty and law of chastity and shame stuff in your adolescence. Did any of that. That bear down as an issue once you got married or. Or not?

Hayley Rawle [02:06:14] Yeah. So I.

John Dehlin [02:06:16] And again, only what you want to talk.

Hayley Rawle [02:06:18] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm an open book, so I think this is actually something that I feel very passionate about talking to. I ended up being diagnosed with a condition called vaginismus, which is pain with sex due to. I mean, you with your psychology training could probably speak to this better than me, but pain with sex due to psychological reasons, essentially an inability to relax the pelvic floor. And I had painful sex from my honeymoon up until, like, this year because I didn't know that that's what I had. I'd never heard about it. And I kind of just thought sex could be painful and did a bunch of research myself, went to a bunch of doctors, was dismissed many times, until I finally went to sex therapy to figure out how to have.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:13] Especially probably if you were going to doctors in Bravo.

Hayley Rawle [02:07:17] Yeah, all in Utah women. I was going to female doctors, which I thought would be better. Unfortunately did not turn out to be the case. Anyway, it came to a point after pregnancy where I was like, I need to go to sex therapy so I can figure out how to deal with this. And then my sex therapist referred me to a pelvic floor physical therapist. And within like 10 weeks of pelvic floor therapy, I was able to have pain without sex, but it was sex without pain. What did I say? Pain without sex. Sex without pain. Yes. So I feel passionately about that.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] Because you went how many years with just painful sex?

Hayley Rawle [02:07:56] You went six and a half. And it was kind of off and on, like it would get better at certain times. And it wasn't always, like, it wasn't always painful, but it was pretty consistently there was some degree of pain with sex.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] You wanted to tie it to psychology. Are you saying you. You now assert, you now tie that the cause of that pain as being psychological?

Hayley Rawle [02:08:25] Yes. So as far as I understand it, and based on, like, how I was able to overcome it, I was unable to relax my pelvic floor. So my mind to muscle connection wasn't there. So it's. That was. That's the actual issue. But there's almost always, more times than not, that comes from some sort of sexual shame or trauma. And that's why your brain is unable to relax your pelvic floor. And that resonates with me because I was. I did the pelvic floor physical therapy and also did sex therapy. And that's what ultimately led to not having pain with sex anymore.

John Dehlin [02:09:07] So the narrative that someone might want to overlay is you experience all that horrible guilt and shame within Mormonism and by your bishop or bishops. So you associated like, sex with bad and with sin and with impurity and unrighteousness. And so then once you are in a marriage, even though it's okay by the church's standards, your body is still making those associations.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] Which then led to six years of painful sex.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:37] Is that a narrative that.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:39] That's what I think.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:40] Okay. And also, let me. You can correct me if I'm wrong. Does it also include the fact that there's not a Lot of sexual education. So you wouldn't know what's causing it. You wouldn't know how to, you know how to fix it.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:56] Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:57] You were just thinking that that's just normal, that's how, that's what it is.

Hayley Rawle [02:10:00] And there's shame in talking about it. And there's also a narrative in Mormonism, I think, that sex is painful because you're going to be a virgin when you have sex for the first time. So it's just going to be painful. And sex can be painful for a long time because it's painful at first. So I think that was my narrative for a long time until I finally was like, okay, it's been years. This shouldn't be painful anymore.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:26] From what I understand. It's very similar also with anxiety ed, where you know that it's gonna hurt. So then you're, you know, 100%, you can't relax cause you know it's gonna hurt.

Hayley Rawle [02:10:41] Exactly. There's a different sort of anticipation for sex in Mormonism and there's so much anticipation for sex. And I think there was that element of. It was a huge part of it where I was being told by a lot of women, it can be really painful. It can be really painful. And I'm sure that that anticipation in that like psychological element did not help.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:05] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:07] And so I imagine. And there was an impact both on your own mental health or well being and also on your husband and on your marriage. What, if any, do you want to say about that?

Hayley Rawle [02:11:20] Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting because we, I don't know, we still had sex and it was kind of just something like I honestly was just used to. So it really didn't impact, I feel like our sexual life or our marriage as much as you would think it would until postpartum. That's when it was excruciatingly painful because it had gotten a lot worse due to trauma during my birth. And then it was taking a toll on our marriage, which is why I eventually was like, I have to go figure this out. But up until that point, it really wasn't as much of an issue because I think I was just like, well, it was manageable pain. And so I was just like, well, okay, I guess I just have pain during sex. And it was, honestly, I feel like we had a pretty regular healthy sex life. I just was used to being in some amount of pain, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [02:12:20] Anything about the marriage dynamics in those early years before you talk about infertility stuff?

Hayley Rawle [02:12:25] Yeah, it was really hard. We hardly knew each other because we'd been dating for five months and we were very young and we were figuring ourselves out. We were figuring out a lot of things. And then on top of that, we were trying to navigate a marriage. We, as I think many Mormon couples do, kind of have this sense of urgency around buying a home, for example. So we bought a home quite young, while we were still in school, and we were renovating a home, and just it felt like a lot. This was when my mental health stuff from my mission. But just, I think kind of as it often does in the early 20s, I just had a lot of anxiety and depression popping up for me, just feeling overwhelmed with school. We were both working. We were just. It was just a lot. And there was. It was wonderful in so many ways. And it's wonderful that we were kind of supporting each other through those. Those crucial years. But I think being in a marriage just added a lot of extra things to navigate when we already had our own individual things to figure out at that early stage of life.

John Dehlin [02:13:45] Okay, so what were your thoughts about child rearing, child having and child rearing?

Hayley Rawle [02:13:56] So I told you before I wanted to be, you know, get a PhD, be a lawyer, maybe be a professor. I feel like that started to shift on my mission and I started to become more, I want to get married and I want to have kids. And it still didn't feel like ultra urgent to me, but it started to feel more like that's what I wanted out of my life. And.

John Dehlin [02:14:19] Which is weird because you said you never really liked babysitting, you never really wanted to be a mom. So that. That almost feels like you're assuming the identity that was forced or handed to you.

Hayley Rawle [02:14:28] Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think there's this thing that happens on a mission when you feel so lonely and so starved of physical affection, and it almost like forces you into. I just craved, like, I just want to be like, married and have babies. Because here I was pounding the pavement from 6am to 9pm every day. Like, it just kind of like twisted my.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:56] You're also teaching over and over and over again these idealistic version of the Mormon family. And what really brings happiness in this life is having kids and being married. So of course you come back just convinced, even if before that was not in your realm.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:13] Totally.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:14] That's what you need to do, to be honest.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:16] Totally. And you're around families, like, as a Mormon missionary, you're teaching families and you're in these family settings watching these families interact with each other. And you Just think, wow, this is. What more could you want than just a Mormon family? So that started to shift for me. I always still knew I wanted an education. I still think I wanted to work outside the home in some capacity. But I definitely started to shift into more of a marriage mom mindset.

John Dehlin [02:15:44] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] So once you get married, you know, you said you. You had wanted to do college and grad school. What ended up happening?

Hayley Rawle [02:15:54] So I did end up finishing school, and I knew that I wanted to wait to have kids until I was done with school. I wanted to finish school for sure. I was studying English. I really loved it. I really love. The English department at byu had phenomenal professors. I think that was a big reason that I was. They're very progressive, honestly. And going to BYU and being around these progressive, really highly, highly intellectual people who were still in the church, I was like, okay, cool. Like, you can do this. I was seeing that around me and, you know, loved, loved school for the most part. I was at that point wanting to be a professor. Eventually get a master's degree.

John Dehlin [02:16:46] Really quick, three to five of your favorite books or authors from your bachelor's degree from your English training.

Hayley Rawle [02:16:57] Good question. I really love Grapes of Wrath. John Steinbeck. That was a really fun one to study. The Things They Carried. It's a Vietnam War book. My very favorite professor. It A'd for him, and I took his class where we studied and wrote literary criticism about that book. And then I TA'd for him. So that was one of my favorites. Jamin Rowan. Yeah, he's phenomenal. I'm trying to think. There was actually a lot of literature. I mostly enjoy contemporary literature, and I had to read a lot of, like, Beowulf type stuff, which was not my vibe. But, yeah, I really admired my professors. I think that's a huge part of my journey, was really connecting on this deep intellectual and soul level with these people. And in byu, which was a religious setting, ultimately feeling like, wow, these are really progressive people and they're members of the church.

John Dehlin [02:18:04] And Victorian stuff like Jane Eyre or. Or any of that stuff.

Hayley Rawle [02:18:07] I read some of it, but not. Not my fave.

John Dehlin [02:18:11] Yeah, okay. East of Eden.

Hayley Rawle [02:18:13] I do love east of Eden. Yes. I do love east of Eden. I think I probably could have given the Victorian stuff a better chance, but to be honest, you're reading so much when you're getting an English degree that there was a lot of sparks noting as well. I kind of had to decide, like, what am I gonna really read and what am I gonna, like, read enough of to get by.

John Dehlin [02:18:36] I wish you could have taken Stephen Walker's fantasy or Bible is Lit.

Hayley Rawle [02:18:43] I barely missed him. Yeah. So I never got to. And I've talked to so many people who are just blown away by that class. And he's. Yeah. One of the smartest people alive, in my opinion. So I wish I could have as well.

John Dehlin [02:18:56] Sorry to rub it in. Marty's like, you're interviewing who?

Hayley Rawle [02:19:02] Yeah, he's a. You know, he's the perfect example, too, of the kind of people in that program. Yeah. Really, really cool, impressive people.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] Yeah. Okay, so you graduated childless. That's actually a remarkable accomplishment at byu.

Hayley Rawle [02:19:19] Yeah. And I feel like that was more typical the people I was hanging out with. So my friend group at this time were really close friends that I had had since high school. So the friend I mentioned before, he was at byu, we had a lot of. Of close friends who were all, at that point, progressive Mormons. And none of us wanted kids that soon. We all wanted to get our degrees. And it was pretty. I think it would have been strange in the friend group I was in if I had like, that I was also kind of doing what my friends were doing. And we all, as women, were wanting to get our education. A lot of us wanted to work for a little bit out of school, too.

John Dehlin [02:20:02] So what year did you graduate from BYU?

Hayley Rawle [02:20:04] I graduated. Gosh, 2019.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] So right before COVID No, it would

Hayley Rawle [02:20:12] have been earlier than 2018, probably because I graduated in December and then my husband graduated that April.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] Okay. Any of the campus controversies happen during that time? LGBT stuff? Protests, I guess. Black businesses came later.

Hayley Rawle [02:20:32] Nothing really going on that way on campus. No.

John Dehlin [02:20:35] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:20:35] I mean, there was, you know, always the murmurings of stuff, like weird things being taught in religion classes that people would talk about. And we were like, that's crazy. But no big movement type things.

John Dehlin [02:20:49] What about the wave of, like, BYU students losing their faith because of, like, CES letter or truth claims? Did. Was that. Were you just, again, in a bubble?

Hayley Rawle [02:20:59] Yeah, it wasn't really. I wasn't really part of that. I do think at this time with the group of friends I was in, this is when the door was cracking faster. We were just talking. What did happen while I was at byu? Was it that they reversed that policy? We were just discussing back.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:21] And Nelson went to BYU to say that the reversal was revelation.

Hayley Rawle [02:21:26] Yes, that happened. And I remember things like that were. I mean, the church was still churching, so there was still a lot of shit going on that. And at this point, I was open enough and my friends were open enough where we were saying, this is weird. We were feeling uncomfortable. We were feeling a lot of dissonance, a lot of mental gymnastics. And like, that reversal happened, for example, and. And we were like, wait, but that doesn't make sense.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:58] And the talk is really weird. Like, he says these things of like, you know, God has never changed his definition of marriage. It's only been with you one. One man and one woman. When we know that that's not. They changed it on the transcript later, but then, you know, it's.

Hayley Rawle [02:22:18] Yeah, that's not.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:19] It was weird. It was a weird talk, for sure.

Hayley Rawle [02:22:22] Yeah, I remember at this point, I'm trying to think, I'm so bad with years, but that. That really good friend of mine right after graduating from byu, he came out as gay to me first. And so I feel like leading up to that moment, things were happening. My friends and I, my husband and I, we were all very open about feeling a lot of dissonance. And it just hadn't come to, like, a head yet. So going to byu, you know, there's still kind of. Obviously you're at byu, you feel like there's things holding you to going to church. Everyone I was around was kind of finding these progressive ways around the things that were making us uncomfortable. So I would say my BYU years were kind of just my dissonance, but making it work.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:22] And your friend came out and then he. Did he stay in the church?

Hayley Rawle [02:23:26] So he came out and was. There was a really intense time. So this was right after graduation. He moved to la and I went to visit him in la and he came out to me and he was not doing well because he was still believing the church was true, but believing he would be excluded if he chose to, you know, be with a man. And we were having really intense, really difficult conversations, just him and I. And it was really strange because it very quickly got to the point where I was telling him, as a still believing member, an active member, I was saying, I think you need to step away. Like, I think you need to leave because this is obviously not good for you and your mental health. And I was progressive enough at this point where I was saying, I promise it's going to work out for you. You just like need to go live your life in a way that makes you happy. And to him, which is so valid, he was feeling like, well, that's easy for you to say and you're still gonna stay, right? And that's where we had this really. It became really Tumultuous between him and I, because he did end up leaving, and he rightfully so, was really upset by me staying in the church. And I think he was even more upset because I was staying. But I was saying, the church is wrong on this. The church is just wrong. But I can't. I just couldn't leave yet. And to him, that was maddening as it would be because he was like, well, you're still choosing to support this thing. That's wrong, but you can stay because it's not. Not directly harming you. And we ultimately went from talking literally every day since we were probably 14. Whoa. And I haven't talked to him for. It's been like three, four years now.

John Dehlin [02:25:36] Oh, still.

Hayley Rawle [02:25:37] Yeah. Oh, I know. It's really sad. And I will say about that friendship, there's a lot more context to it. And there were. There were other things in the friendship. We had, I think a very enmeshed friendship. We really struggled to differentiate with each other. We were kind of. We were too close. We had inherited this friendship from being so young and had kind of struggled to bring that into an. Into adulthood. In a lot of ways, I think it had become almost borderline toxic. Anyway, that said, it's still so devastating that that happened. And I hold a lot of anger and resentment at the church because I experienced firsthand, even on this side of it, being the believing member, just how much the church can be a wedge in relationships and just how sad that is. And I feel really sad. I feel like I failed him and not being able to leave when he needed me to. But also, looking back, I just. I wasn't ready yet. I, like, couldn't have done it just for him, but I wish I could have, you know?

John Dehlin [02:26:49] Yeah, that's hard.

Hayley Rawle [02:26:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:52] Yeah. Super hard.

Hayley Rawle [02:26:54] Yeah, it was really hard. And I think that was a huge catalyst into ultimately leaving for sure. But I think obviously I wasn't as directly affected, so I could hang on longer because I wasn't experiencing that direct harm. But hearing him talk about the harm and hearing him lay out what he was going through was really huge in what ultimately shifted my faith too into. Okay, I think the church is just wrong on this one. But hopefully they'll catch up to this. Is. This is. Is too wrong, too unethical. And it just. I. I couldn't keep making it make sense.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] What were the most unethical things that you were noticing about the position the church was putting him in? If you just had to summarize.

Hayley Rawle [02:27:50] Yeah. I mean, it's a Lose, lose, lose, lose. Like, it. I knew it never made sense to me that you could ask someone to live a celibate life and they could still be happy, and that. That. That challenge or trial was somehow comparable to anything else. Like, that never made sense. I was like, that's just not real. That's not right. But in my mind, yeah, I guess I was just thinking, well, there's the

John Dehlin [02:28:15] option of marrying a woman.

Hayley Rawle [02:28:17] Yes, I.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] For him.

Hayley Rawle [02:28:20] Yes. And for him. Like, that's the thing, being so close to him. All of those things that members say of, like, well, they could just be celibate or they could marry a woman and have a wonderful friendship. When you're that close to someone, it's like, no, you could never ask someone you really love and care about to do that.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] And so many people you don't know and don't care about.

Hayley Rawle [02:28:41] Exactly. Yeah. And so that's what I found so unethical and just the level of trauma that I witnessed, and I still witness from afar from him, of growing up in an organization that's telling him this really key piece to who he is, which is. Is beautiful and wonderful, is sinful and wrong. I saw firsthand, like, how deep that went for him and how torturous that was for him. And, yeah, there's just no excuse for it. Like, it's inexcusable and wrong. And, yeah, it's really sad. I think that, again, there's a lot of, I think, shame there on my behalf, too, because I feel like I've heard since, and I think it's true that sometimes progressive Mormons can be the most harmful to people in that situation. And I thought I was doing such a good thing by being progressive for him, but I think that ultimately ended up being even more maddening in the position that he was in, which is just really hard and really sad.

John Dehlin [02:29:54] Yeah. I had someone say to me, yeah, if I had a gay kid, I definitely would leave the church, but I don't have a gay kid, so I'm fine. I'm like, wait, why would you leave if you had a gay kid? Well, it would be fatal to the kid. Well, I'm like, what about other people's kids?

Hayley Rawle [02:30:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:30:09] And they're like, oh, well, you know, they're not mine.

Hayley Rawle [02:30:11] I know.

John Dehlin [02:30:12] You know?

Hayley Rawle [02:30:13] Well, and that's what's so sad. I shouldn't have had to have had a gay best friend to realize that either. You know, like, it's unfortunate that even that was the case, because it should just be enough that any gay Person feels that way, but it's different when you're seeing it that close.

John Dehlin [02:30:30] We struggle as humans with empathy sometimes.

Hayley Rawle [02:30:32] Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah. So that felt really significant for me and I think that's when, yeah, I was able to justify it for a certain amount of time, but the clock

John Dehlin [02:30:50] was ticking by that point.

Hayley Rawle [02:30:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] Well, hopefully there'll be a reconciliation with you and your friend.

Hayley Rawle [02:30:55] I know. I hope so. I miss him, think about him every day.

John Dehlin [02:30:58] Maybe he's watching right now.

Hayley Rawle [02:31:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:03] Okay. So did you apply, did you consider applying to grad school after. Before or right after graduating?

Hayley Rawle [02:31:11] So at that point I was feeling very burnt out, academically speaking. And I think I had become a little tiny bit jaded with just academia in general and was feeling like I didn't want to get a master's degree at least at that point. And this was the point where we started thinking about having kids. Some important context is I was never on birth control my whole marriage. I tried multiple forms of birth control and had really terrible reactions to it. So we were doing like rhythm method kind of half heartedly. So at this point, which is also crazy in retrospect because we were not ready to have kids. But at this point we both were kind of like, we probably should have gotten pregnant by now because we're like not really using birth control and not being very careful about it. So we weren't actively trying, but we weren't really trying not to. And that I think is important because that really informed how we decided to move forward with trying to conceive. Because I think I had this sense based on that that it might take longer than we thought. And so we kind of thought, well, maybe we should start trying and like suss out if there's actually an infertility issue or not. And I kind of had this knowing that there probably was going to be. So that kind of changed our timeline. It wasn't really like, okay, we're super ready to have kids, let's try. It was more like a slow building up to like from not. Not trying to actually trying.

John Dehlin [02:33:02] Yeah. And so you. How was that fertility process for you?

Hayley Rawle [02:33:08] Yeah, so we ended up trying actively for about a year. Didn't get pregnant, went to. We moved to San Francisco during this time. So out of school, my husband got hired at an advertising agency in San Francisco. I was working for a company headquartered here in Provo as a project manager. I got a job right out the of of school and I was working remotely. So we were in San Francisco, both working, went to the doctor There because it'd been a year, and they did a blood panel. Everything was normal. They put me on Clomid, which is just an ovulation booster, did that for a few months, didn't get pregnant. Kind of took some breaks along the way. So the whole process was, like, a lot more drawn out than it normally would be. Covid hit. And at this point, we were entering the more invasive fertility territory. So this is when you start doing IUIs, which is artificial insemination. If that doesn't work, you do ivf. So we're looking into doctors kind of doing pricing and realizing that it's much, much, much, much more expensive in California than in Utah. Right. We'd been living in San Francisco about a year and a half. We're about six months into the pandemic, and we decided to move back to Utah. So we, yeah, ended up having about almost two years in San Francisco, moved back to Utah, and that's when we did our three IUIs, all of which failed. And during the course of the IUIs, I got diagnosed with endometriosis, which was the reason that I wasn't getting pregnant. And then we knew we needed to do ivf. So at this point, with all the breaks in between and finding new doctors and moving, it had been, like, two years from really starting to try to this point. And then that's when we decided to do ivf, took another long break, and then did the IVF process really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:35:06] Is vaginismus in any way tied to endometriosis or not?

Hayley Rawle [02:35:11] They say it can be because sometimes endometriosis causes pain with sex as well. I don't believe that mine is because it doesn't affect me now that I've addressed the vaginismus, but they say it can be related. And the whole endometriosis thing was really frustrating, too, because they should have probably caught that at the beginning of my fertility journey, but it took, like, two years to figure that out. Anyway, I won't rant about women's health stuff, but that was frustrating and worth mentioning. This infertility stuff was a major, major toll on my faith.

John Dehlin [02:35:47] How so?

Hayley Rawle [02:35:49] I. The first thing that it brought up for me was so much messaging about, well, it'll happen in God's timing, and God either makes things happen or lets things happen in order to teach us things that we need to learn, which I internalized as, okay, I'm not ready to be a mom, and God's putting me through this torturous experience until I finally learn my lesson. And Then I'll finally get pregnant. And it made me feel very at odds with a God who would operate that way, because it didn't feel good to believe in a God who would put me through something so miserable in order to teach me a lesson. And, like, be waiting until I figured out that lesson to then, okay, you can get pregnant now. And I wouldn't say that's directly being taught, but that's how I was interpreting what I had been taught my whole life about how God operates in our lives. So that was happening, and then there was all this messaging about how women are mothers. It was Mother's Day, and everyone was telling me, happy Mother's Day. And I'm like, I'm not a mom, so why are you wishing me Happy Mother's Day? Why is womanhood equated with motherhood? That was so frustrating to me because I didn't know if I would ever be a mom. I was trying so hard, and my body was not allowing me to do that, and yet I was being told, happy Mother's Day, as if that was my ultimate thing as a woman. But I was like, I don't even know if I can do that. So why are we equating womanhood and motherhood? We don't say Happy Father's Day to men who aren't fathers. There's just such a deep, deep, deep connection with womanhood and motherhood in LDS theology. And it sucked to feel like something I wanted so bad for myself to have children was being reinforced of, like, this is what you're here to do. This is why you're on Earth. This is women's ultimate achievement. And I couldn't do it. My body wouldn't let me. So it just made me feel so much worse about not being able to get pregnant. And it made me start to just think about motherhood and womanhood in very different ways than I think I would have had to if I didn't experience infertility.

John Dehlin [02:38:16] Okay. And that's just a few years ago, right?

Hayley Rawle [02:38:19] Yeah. So I. Let's see. I did ivf. The girls were born a year ago, year before that. Yeah. So this was like. Like two and a half years ago. And I was very actively struggling with my faith at this point. This was like, crisis mode with faith stuff, with the LGBTQ issues we were just speaking of with my infertility. And then just felt like every week, the church was doing something that I remember being like, really? Like, how it just. Things kept piling on. Talks were being given, devotionals, policies. It just Felt like the pile was growing ever bigger. So I was struggling with what the church was doing on this very active day to day level, and then was having these more deep philosophical struggles with my conception of God and self and identity too.

John Dehlin [02:39:20] Wow. So how did that progress?

Hayley Rawle [02:39:24] So during COVID we stopped going to church because we had to. We moved back to Utah and we're pretty wardless. We're kind of moving around at that time too. And then as things slowly normalized and church started again, we just didn't go back so that the actual hamster wheel of just going and doing stopped abruptly. And there was a lot of time to breathe and think. A lot of the friends we were with at that time that we had kind of gone through this with started leaving. And did you.

John Dehlin [02:40:03] Did you ever like stop them and ask or talk to them about why or.

Hayley Rawle [02:40:07] Totally. So, like, we had a friend come visit in San Francisco and his wife, one of my best friends, had mostly left and he was really, really devout and he came to our house, just him, he was on a work trip and he was like, hey, I just read the letter to my wife. And he's like, I don't think the church is true anymore. And my husband and I were like, whoa, wait, you don't think the church is true anymore? Like, whoa.

John Dehlin [02:40:39] And.

Hayley Rawle [02:40:40] And then we read the letter to my wife, then we read the CES letter. It all felt very, just. I don't know, it was kind of slow, but kind of steady, where you just start opening up more and more in all the different ways. You open up more to the history, you open up more to the possibilities of like, we smoked weed for the first time and we're just like, wait,

John Dehlin [02:41:06] a semi believing, being active Mormons or

Hayley Rawle [02:41:11] on our way out, but not out out. Like, I would have said, I still, I would have said at the point that I took an edible, I would have said, I still think the church will be part of my life in some capacity. So definitely not like out, but probably more out than I even realized. And it, yeah, it's kind of hard to describe because I feel like it was just this. Just slowly we started letting it happen. What we were like so desperately trying to not let happen for an amount of time up to that point. And we started, yeah, we drank some alcohol, just like kind of slowly trying things, talking about things, discussing history. And we were super fortunate because we're friends with. There's a group of us, that kind of one friend group and then adjacent friend groups. There's probably like 30 of us that all left right around at the same time.

John Dehlin [02:42:09] Yeah, that's a pretty big body count from the church's perspective.

Hayley Rawle [02:42:13] Yeah, no, it was like this core group of couples where there was like five couples and then a few other couples that were kind of friends here and some other couples here. And, like, everyone left pretty much around the same time, same story. Covet happened. People stopped going to church and they had time to breathe, and everyone started talking to each other and telling each other what they were learning about and reading and the podcast they were listening to, like, Year of Polygamy, my friend referenced to me. So I listened to some of that, and just slowly but surely, we kind of all found ourselves, like, oh, I guess we don't consider ourselves Mormon anymore.

Beginning to Question and Leave the Church

John Dehlin [02:42:56] So given that you, you know, well, believed all through high school and experienced all that shame, but also served a mission and graduated from byu, what was it like to consider the question as to whether or not the church was true and then to find out all the stuff you had, you know, you had been in the bubble, so then you find out all this stuff that you had never been taught.

Hayley Rawle [02:43:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:23] And then some of it, you know, can be really disturbing. What was that process like for you? Because the way you told us, just like, oh, we kind of decided it wasn't true. But was it? Was it not? Maybe you were so young. It wasn't as traumatic as it might have been for someone like me.

Hayley Rawle [02:43:40] I just think it was so gradual. I think that's what kind of. And there was still lots of emotions along the way. I mean, I'm. Yeah, I'm speaking about it kind of flippantly, but there certainly was, like, I remember reading the CES letter and being like, whoa, I feel like I've heard about all of these things. It was more like, I've heard about all of these things, but reading it all at once, it's so much more difficult to mental gymnastics yourself out of 50 things as opposed to one thing on a case by case basis. But it really felt like a door slowly opening. And one day I just found myself in front of an open door, like, oh, okay. Or I always say the frog in the pot of water. Just, you slowly turn up the heat and then the pot's boiling. You know, like, it was so gradual.

John Dehlin [02:44:31] And I feel the faith was the frog.

Hayley Rawle [02:44:33] Yes, exactly. And it feels like I feel lucky that it was so gradual and I had so many people around me that we were all kind of like we were processing so much in real time, and literally until this day it's slowly tapering off. But it's what we talk about when we're with our friends. Like, wow, can we believe we went on missions? Like, what was that all about? And we talk about it and we talk about that. It makes us angry and it makes us sad. But there's also these happy things, like so much real time processing. And when I have been in therapy as well, off and on. And I was telling my therapist my faith transition stuff, and she was like, you've literally been having group therapy sessions for like a year straight with my friends, who I consider like very highly emotionally intelligent people. My. So many of my friends are tr. True church historians. So they were like, like telling me history and then we could talk about it. I just feel really lucky because I feel like a lot of the anger and resentment is still there and I still feel it to this day, but it was being processed in real time. And that I think just spared me some of the like, intensity of or like explosiveness that can come with leaving the church because I was doing it with people and because it was happening step by step by step.

John Dehlin [02:46:03] So much of the anger that you see in ex Mormonism comes from people feeling trapped or marginalized or cut off or feeling lonely or having no one to talk to or feeling like total rejection from their closest relationships. And just sounds like a lot of that you didn't have to experience.

Hayley Rawle [02:46:24] I worried about it and I was very slow in like telling my family, but my family's completely active. My immediate family, my sisters, my mom. Besides my dad, who I've kind of talked about, I'm the only cousin who's left on both sides out of probably 50 cousins.

John Dehlin [02:46:43] Wow, really?

Hayley Rawle [02:46:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] Now that's.

Hayley Rawle [02:46:46] I know. I mean, that I know of. So we'll see. But I just feel really fortunate that I told my mom and sisters and they're not thrilled, but they're letting me do my thing. I literally am doing a full podcast about it. And no one, I think my family, for better or for worse, like, we kind of deal with our shit internally. And I've just never felt projected on me. Like, I'm sure it's not my mom's favorite thing that her daughter runs a full blown post Mormon podcast. Like, certainly it's not, but she deals with it, you know, and she doesn't make it my problem. She's like letting me live my life and I'm really, really grateful for that. I also have my dad, who's always been unorthodox. People like my grandpa Walker Who? I'm like, I don't know his full belief situation, but I'm like, What I do know is he thinks I'm badass and, like, wants me to do my thing, you know?

John Dehlin [02:47:48] Does he listen to your podcast?

Hayley Rawle [02:47:49] I don't know. I think so, actually, because I think my dad said that he's talked to them about it. And I just. I have people like that in my life that are these examples of people who are kind of just like. I don't know. It's never felt so literal, maybe to them, but my grandpa Warner. So my mom's dad, CES guy. Yes. He was the one I was most worried about. And there was. I had to. I told my mom to tell him. She told him. He kept calling us, trying to meet with my husband and, like, talk to him.

John Dehlin [02:48:23] Stage an intervention.

Hayley Rawle [02:48:24] Yes. And I wrote him an email, and I said, hey, we've left, and I don't really want to talk about it with you. We tried as hard as we possibly could to make it work. I can promise you that. And I don't want you to ever ask me about it ever again. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:40] You just boundaried the F out of me.

Hayley Rawle [02:48:41] I did, and it worked. I literally saw him on Mother's Day. We hung out. Like, I'm really grateful because he did write back an email where he was like, I've seen what this can do to families. Like, there was some of that, but he said, okay, if you don't want me to talk about it, I won't talk about it. And now I see him. We hug, we chat. It's great. Great. And he just doesn't mention it. And here's the thing. Like, obviously, there's still this underlying piece of, like, this is a huge part of my life. This is a huge part of who I am going through all of this. And it's not something I openly discuss with some of the people I love the most, but I think it's what we all kind of need to do with where we're at right now. And I literally call my mom three times a day, like. Like, so close with my mom, so close with my sisters, and it just. I just feel really lucky because I know that that's really not the case for a lot of people.

John Dehlin [02:49:39] Yeah. How did leaving the church affect your marriage dynamic? I think, well, whatever you want to talk about.

Hayley Rawle [02:49:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's been a really good catalyst for growth, but it also has exposed some challenges. Namely, like, most specifically, what we're dealing with right now is Gender role stuff. It's like we have seen the light, but actually incorporating that back into our marriage is hard because we've built a marriage on gender roles and things we've been taught since we were young. So we know, both of us, that that's not how we want to be, but we are that way because that's how we built what we have. So now there's like some backtracking to do and some, like, unraveling and unpacking and deconstructing because we set up our marriage on this gender role dynamic that now we no longer want. And I think even when we got married, I would have said I didn't want that, but we were too young, we were too unaware. And so, you know, as it goes with post Mormonism, you start to see more and more systems that are maybe not serving you or holding you back. I think when you start to deconstruct Mormonism, you can start to deconstruct Christianity and the patriarchy and all these systems. And that's really exciting and really beneficial. But it's taken work and it's been a challenge in our marriage. To then kind of like bring that back down to earth and actually implement it is a different story.

John Dehlin [02:51:28] Okay, so it's a work in progress.

Hayley Rawle [02:51:32] Yeah, it's a work in progress. And I feel incredibly fortunate again because my partner Bentley is so willing to listen and learn and understand and try and, you know, like right now we're dealing with gender role dynamics and especially as new parents to twins. I work outside of the home, but I have a more flexible situation.

John Dehlin [02:52:01] You have a full time job?

Hayley Rawle [02:52:02] I have like a medium time job.

John Dehlin [02:52:05] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:52:05] So I work. I go into the office twice a week, Tuesday, Thursday, and then I work from home, like during the girls naps, essentially my twin girls.

John Dehlin [02:52:12] Do you want to say what type of work or.

Hayley Rawle [02:52:13] Yeah, it's project management for a graphic design team. And I love it. I love working outside the home. I also run my podcast. It's a lot. But I'm also am the stay at home caretaker because my husband works outside of the home full time. But when it comes to the child care and the domestic labor, it feels like I'm the default person to do it because that's just kind of what we've seen modeled to us and how we grew up. But A, shouldn't be the case anyway. And B, I also work outside the home. So it just becomes there's just been a lot of work in, like setting ourselves up for success in doing that. And it's a lot of unlearning, essentially. And I think that's a societal problem. And Mormonism has an. A really thick added layer on top of all that gender role stuff that just makes it even more prevalent.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:12] So glad that I don't have to deal with any of that, honestly.

Hayley Rawle [02:53:15] No, I'm not even kidding. I posted a TikTok about this and had so many, mostly women in the comments, but they're like, just marry a woman. I'm like, I wish I could, but I'm straight. But no, I do feel, I feel really lucky that, that we're willing to work on it together. I think we're both excited by all the, you know, figuring this out, but it definitely isn't easy. And you know, just what other things that come with post Mormonism, like substances, for example, especially with my history, we do now recreationally drink alcohol, for example. And that's been something that's. There's been a lot of figuring out to do with that and a lot of communication around boundaries and around how it makes the other person feel when the other person drinks and how much. And those sorts of things that you would normally be figuring out maybe as a teenager or young adult. And now we're having to do that on top of being almost 30, married, you know, so there just becomes more things that you need to work through because when you're Mormon, you just don't do any of that. And then when you leave Mormonism, it's like, okay, now there's more possibilities. So there's more to discuss and there's more to work through. And that hasn't been a bad thing. It's just been a thing.

Raising Daughters and Finalizing Faith Transition

John Dehlin [02:54:46] You mentioned your outline, having kids, daughters made you wonder whether you wanted to raise your daughters in the church. Yes, maybe. I don't know if you've addressed this. I don't know that you have. Like, do you want to talk about what about the Mormon life you weren't wanting for your daughters?

Hayley Rawle [02:55:05] Yeah, I think that was the final, final straw because up until that point, and this was actually when I was pregnant with them, and up until that point I was like, I don't really think the church is true necessarily, but, you know, I'm a heritage Mormon. This feels like a key piece to my identity. I think I'll be attached to the church in some way. I don't really know what I was imagining because Mormonism doesn't really allow for that. But that was kind of my thinking. And then when I realized I was going to have children, it Occurred to me, well, I'm not going to bring my kids to church, have them hear whatever is said, take them home, sit them down and say, okay, that was wrong. That was super wrong. That's homophobic. Oh, but what they said about Jesus and, like, being a good person, that's good because kids don't have.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] You're basically describing my children's update. No joke.

Hayley Rawle [02:56:05] Better than just getting it wholesale. Right. I mean, I think that's maybe a step up, but I was like, that's not.

John Dehlin [02:56:10] It's very confusing for the kids. It is. It turned out to be. Be probably a mistake. I don't like to admit that, and I don't want my kids to feel like I'm characterizing their upbringing as a mistake. But we thought we were making them wise, making them nuanced in their thinking, making them sophisticated. But I think they were just absorbing a bunch of toxic, harmful messages and hearing us blah, w, w, w as parents, trying to explain it away.

Hayley Rawle [02:56:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:38] And then they just. Just grew up with a bunch of toxic messaging. And that's what it came down to for them.

Hayley Rawle [02:56:44] Yeah, that's. That's kind of.

John Dehlin [02:56:45] Until we took them out of it because, you know. Or I got kicked out of it. You know what I mean?

Hayley Rawle [02:56:49] Totally. Well, I just think kids, they can't just disregard a toxic message because they're being told it's not.

John Dehlin [02:56:55] If they're swimming in it, you know?

Hayley Rawle [02:56:57] Yeah, exactly. And the toxic messaging of the church is a specific type of toxic messaging, because it's toxic messaging that's saying this is true. A hundred percent, a million percent. So even if your dad tells you it's not totally true, it is. You know, that's like, the type of toxic messaging is particularly bad because it's saying, literally, don't allow for nuanced thinking. Don't allow for complexity. It's not like, hey, here's what we think. Like, take it or leave it. And I just realized, why would I do that if I don't even think it's true? Why would I even do that? It just was kind of the final, final cherry on top.

John Dehlin [02:57:37] Why are you smiling, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:39] Well, as I. As I was listening to your deconstruction story, just about how things progressed, and I. I was just thinking about this messaging that we hear in the church. You know, you probably stopped reading your scriptures. You tried weed. You started rehearsing your doubts with other doubters. You did all the things that the church tells you not to do, and, well, that's why you're out of the church. But in reality, once you put them all together, the things that the church tells you not to do in order to not leave, you know, it's basically the recipe for authoritarian control and mind control that it does something like, so that the organization can't prevent you from really thinking for yourself a hundred percent.

Hayley Rawle [02:58:32] I always thought that. And like that is the silliest argument of all time. Because once I start to think the church isn't true, why would I keep reading the Book of Mormon? Once I start to think the church isn't true, why am I going to pray to the church? God? Yes, it's truly, it's so contradictory. But you do that still. I mean, I say that now, but absolutely through my whole journey I was thinking, oh well, is this just the slippery slope happening to me? I did stop praying, I did stop reading my scriptures and you think, oh, that's why this is happening and I'm going down the slope. But it's like, no, I stopped doing those things because I was discovering that this is not true or not serving me. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [02:59:19] Did you tell the story of bearing your testimony to your niece's baby blessing?

Hayley Rawle [02:59:22] Oh yeah. So this was in, I think this was in the mental gymnastics chapter because we were visiting from San Francisco and my sister was blessing my niece and it was testimony meeting and my dad was there, my brother in law, so my sister's husband has lots of family members who are not active members, who are post Mormon, who have been members. And the testimony meeting was just bad. It was one of those testimony meetings. I think someone went up and was saying like talking about her son who fell away from the church and how devastated she was. Just stuff like that. When there's all these people in the audience who left the church and I was feeling so uncomfortable and my sister went up, my older sister and she bore a nice testimony that was God's love focused and, and I at this point was pretty on the way out and I was like, I'm gonna go say something up there. So I bore my testimony and I said, I don't know much. There's a lot I don't know, more I don't know every day. But what I do believe is that God loves us regardless and you know, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. And in any other world that's a

John Dehlin [03:00:36] wonderful thing to say.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:37] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:00:38] But in our church that's a red flag.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:40] Oh, that's alarm God bells which President

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:42] Nelson has explicitly taught against that.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:45] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:45] Like he's literally Said God. God's love is, is not unconditional.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:52] Yes. And they also say, I can't remember who said this, but I think it was Holland said something like a sincere. Something about how it's kind of a doubt your doubts before your. You doubt your faith. But I think he said like a sincere confession of doubts is like a bad thing. Like don't tell the truth and be vulnerable and honest.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:14] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:01:14] Anyway, it did ring the alarm bells. We went back to my sister's house for the after blessing and my grandpa came up to me and was like, hey, I feel like I should tell you something. Told me some story, which the punchline was stick with the good ship Zion, for it will lead you home. So I was like, thanks. And I had a. I had a good conversation with my aunt. She directed me to an Elaine Pagel book, I Believe, which I actually haven't read. I think it's called why Religion. But that was my aunt on my dad's side. So that was kind of the more that type of response. But more than anything, I just remember sensing in that moment and other moments like that when I had tried to raise my hand in Sunday School or Relief Society and like, like challenge a tiny bit. Just mostly like blank stares, massive discomfort. Not a ton of people saying like oh, that's wrong or don't say that, but just feeling like there's no place for this, there's no place for this alternate thinking to land. It just felt really futile. Really quick to try and be a Mormon but be different. I just saw right away that that really wasn't going to move the needle and that it just made people uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:02:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:41] Really quickly you mentioned reading letter. Letter for my wife or letter to my wife. CES letter. Listening to your polygamy a little bit. This is one of my favorite parts of, of all my interviews. Talk about three to five of the most problematic historical or truth claims related issues that you learned once you started studying. After a couple decades at the church, after being a full time missionary for the church, what were the ones that were hardest hitting for you? Truth claims.

Core Reasons for Leaving Mormonism

Hayley Rawle [03:03:16] This is interesting. This is maybe not directly answering your question, but I think that the biggest thing for me was actually a paradigm shift on two levels about Joseph Smith and about Jesus Christ. And it was learning that at the time that Joseph Smith had his first vision and was claiming to start the true church, that other people were actually doing that. I did not know that and I knew that there was the religious revival, but I thought Joseph Smith was unique and learning that Joseph Smith was not unique was very. Actually typical of, like, religious figures of his time was such a paradigm shift for me because it, like, pulls you out and I was like, oh, it's

John Dehlin [03:04:01] almost like, who wasn't claiming to see God? Jesus.

Hayley Rawle [03:04:03] Exactly right. He just did it better and it lasted longer. But that wasn't a specific truth claim thing. But it was. The whole narrative around Joseph Smith just shifted and expanded. And I was like, oh, this is just what was going on.

John Dehlin [03:04:20] He was one of many people claiming to have an experience with God and Jesus.

Hayley Rawle [03:04:24] Yes. And interestingly enough, the Word of Wisdom was kind of my gateway to that, because I remember learning about the Word of Wisdom, that the Word of Wisdom was fairly typical of the time as well. Like hot drinks stuff and that temporal temperance movement. Yes, exactly. And that was what was kind of the gateway into the Joseph Smith stuff and realizing, oh, this was just going on. This. I had always thought this was like, some incredibly unique. Well, if someone's claiming to see God and it just felt different. And then that happened for me as well. On the level of the Jesus Christ stuff, where after I was deconstructing Joseph Smith, I learned more about the history. I actually didn't read the book Zealot, but a close friend of mine did and kind of just like downloaded onto me and learning more about the history of what was going on, of how the New Testament was written hundreds of years later. That also was like, oh, I see where the historical figure of Jesus fits into history and I see how. What has been made of Jesus since. But that paradigm shift was, I think, the biggest thing for me. More so than, like, any specific truth claims. Trying to think of the actual, like, specific truth claims that shocked me the most.

John Dehlin [03:05:47] Anything around the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham.

Hayley Rawle [03:05:49] Yeah, the Book of Mormon. I remember learning that Joseph Smith. That a lot of the Book of Mormon names were similar to, like, places he lived by, which is just kind of silly and, like, retrospect. But that. That felt really like one of those things, like, oh, okay, he's just pulling from. Or how the map is of where he lived is similar to the, like, map of the Book of Mormon. That was really surprising to me. Yeah, that's the. That's. I think the number one thing that comes to mind. I do think the. The polygamy stuff wasn't super alarming because I had heard a lot about polygamy, but discovering the details, the ages of the women, that he was sending men on missions and then marrying their wives was alarming as you can imagine was not awesome. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:46] Okay. Okay.

Hayley Rawle [03:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:49] All right. All right. Well, let's now transition into one of the. The parts I'm most curious about. It's one thing to be a Mormon. It's another thing to have a faith crisis. It's another thing to decide to leave the church and all that is a lot, especially after, you know, a dad with addiction issues and a divorce and fertility issues and a marriage that you may have not chosen at the time you chose it, all that stuff. But to start a Mormon themed, themed post Mormon themed podcast within the context of a high demand religion where there are or can be massive social consequences for speaking publicly because it's one thing to identify the elephants in the room and to decide the elephants are intolerable and I'm leaving. But to then speak out loud about it, that's. That's a major deal for coming from someone who knows as well, you know.

Hayley Rawle [03:07:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:53] Yeah. So, yeah, how do you go from just like saying this isn't working for me we're out to like wanting to start a podcast? Especially when you really, by what I understand talking to you beforehand, you weren't super into Mormon themed podcasts and still really are, which is great. But like, tell. Tell us about that story.

Hayley Rawle [03:08:14] Yeah. You know, that feels more like the moment to me that I think a lot of people, some people describe of a faith transition where it's more of an all at once thing. Because. Okay, what I was noticing as I was leaving the church and as I left is that anywhere I went, anyone I was talking to that I knew was post Mormon, which is a ton of people, random people, people for my mission. Like, I would DM someone for my mission, and it was like, oh, you've left the church too? Like, let's talk about it. Yeah, like, everywhere I was going, I feel like I just ended up talking about Mormonism, post Mormonism, and it just was everywhere I was noticing so many people in the social media sphere, influencers, mommy bloggers, were starting to talk about problems with the church. We're starting to noticeably distance from the church. And it just was this massive, massive topic of conversation. But I was feeling like no one was bringing it kind of a little bit more into the light in this sphere that I was sensing it happening in. And I was. Was talking with friends all the time, and we would tell like these mission horror stories or like, what's your worst companion kind of talking about Mormonism a little bit more from this kind of cultural, like a little bit, maybe more like light Hearted just like, what's the craziest thing that happened to you at efy? Like, those kinds of conversations. And I was like, A, this is incredibly fascinating. B, so many of us have gone through this, and it's always coming up when we're together and we're having these, like, really rich conversations. And C, there's a lot of people going through this, but they don't have friend groups like this. They don't have people that they're able to just be like, whoa, let's talk about how crazy EFY was. And so I was starting to kind of formulate this idea for a podcast that would be a little more chatty, maybe a little more culturally minded, but there was this gigantic, gigantic barrier of it's one thing to leave the church, and my family's been cool about it. I've gotten away with it pretty easily. All things considered, talking about it publicly is a whole different ballgame. And do I want to test my luck? And do I want to, you know, take my chances on these relationships that I almost feel like. Like I've kind of tested? And is this the thing that's gonna, like, push them past? Which is sad as I'm articulating that. Like, push them past what? Like, unconditional love or respect, you know? But I just sat on the idea and I started thinking of names for the podcast, and I started thinking of episode ideas, and I started thinking of people I wanted to bring on. And I just felt, I think, really called to do it. And that's when it was almost just like a diving into the deep end where I'm just like, I'm just gonna do it. I could spend my whole life, like, wanting to do this, but being too afraid to. Being too scared of the fallout, or I could just, like, do what I want to do. And it's been so huge for me and really, like, thrust me into this new stage of self empowerment, of really truly being authentic. Because this is what I want to talk about. I want to talk about it publicly. And there was that other layer of fear of, like, okay, you can leave, but just be cool about it. You can leave, but just be respectful about it. You can leave, but just, like, don't make it your whole thing that you left the church, like, heaven forbid, and being able to push past that and just do it, because I feel like I want to talk about it and have a lot of things to say about it has been so huge and empowering for me because that's. I just pushed past that other layer of fear and shame and. And you know, the organization of the church teaches us, don't leave, of course, but heaven forbid if you leave, like, you make it your thing, you know, like, that's the worst type of thing you could do is leave and then like, keep caring about it and keep talking about it. So, yeah, a lot of work went into, like, mentally getting to a place of doing it, but I feel like once I do just did now feels. It almost feels crazy to me that I ever felt like I couldn't because now I'm just doing it, you know?

John Dehlin [03:13:21] Yeah. Love it. So the truth is there's, I don't know, 30, 50 Mormon themed podcasts or YouTube channels actively going and I could name off 20 of them right now, but.

Hayley Rawle [03:13:34] But

John Dehlin [03:13:38] I think I perceived as I was watching you put out your first kind of notifications about early episodes as you were starting to post stuff on Instagram or even on TikTok. I think I detected also some feelings that the podcasts that were out there weren't. You weren't totally happy with them, or there were things about them or about podcast, Mormon, post Mormon podcasting culture that you weren't super happy with. I think I remember some post about how like, and this isn't to call you out like, you know, like post Mormon podcasting, maybe I'll say post Mormon podcasters not having done the work that they need to do or. Or just that the tone or the tenor of the existing post Mormon podcasts out there weren't what maybe you felt like would be. Would be as good. So did you have critiques of existing podcasts that you both noticed, maybe things that you didn't think were healthy and. Or saw that as a need that you wanted to fill? Was there any of that? Or did I just make all that up in my mind?

Hayley Rawle [03:14:54] No, that's a great question. I truly knew of Mormon stories, year of polygamy, and that's all. And I think what that said to me is that.

John Dehlin [03:15:07] What about Zelf on the Shelf?

Hayley Rawle [03:15:09] I didn't know of Zelf on the Shelf.

John Dehlin [03:15:10] Okay, interesting.

Hayley Rawle [03:15:11] No, I didn't actually. And I think part of what I realized is there's so many post Mormons now that there's a wider audience, there's like more opportunity almost. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, there's more different types of people that might resonate differently from different voices or different just like formats even. And so I certainly did not have any. Mostly I didn't know of a lot of post Mormon podcasts. And secondly, I didn't have any issues whatsoever with anything I did know of, but I felt like there was. I saw an opening for something different. And you were asking me earlier, like, what podcasts I listened to, and I feel like I listened to a lot of. Just pretty chatty almost. More. Keep saying light hearted, but I think that's the wrong word because I don't think that's what I'm doing with my podcast. But. But more, I don't know, casual, maybe. Casual is probably a better word. And I feel like I'm. It's kind of almost like the reality TV of podcasts, where there's some days where I'm in the mood for a really in depth narrative or a more historical or educational. But then there's sometimes when I'm like, at the gym or just like driving to get my Diet Coke where I just want to like, like kind of tickle a different part of my brain that's a little more casual, I guess, and that I was kind of trying to fuse two things. I was like, I think there's a space for something that feels more casual, more chatty. Also, I don't know if there's any other podcasts that do this. There may be, but I really like the format of gathering short stories from people. So, like, I've done an episode on crazy mission stories or I just did one on modesty stories. And it's just. I literally read 15 stories of just. This happened at UFY, this happened at girls Camp and more. Just reading and reacting, which I didn't. I don't know. There may be people doing that, but I didn't know of any doing that. So I think I just saw more than anything an opportunity for a different voice and a different. Just a little. A different spin, I guess, on it.

John Dehlin [03:17:35] Yeah, yeah. There's like a boneyard. There's like a graveyard of. Of podcasts that, you know, that used to exist, that were really popular, that no longer exist. There was like the Brother Jake series on YouTube that was huge in the day. Or the Infants on Thrones podcast, which was huge. Or Mormon Expression podcast with John Larsen. Like, but if it's on Thrones used to get audio. This is back before video podcasting, but they used to get audio. They would call out to their listeners to do audio essays and then they would sew together the audio essays narrated by the actual listeners.

Hayley Rawle [03:18:18] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [03:18:19] And then sew them together. So that's just one example of. But there's this huge history of all these podcasts that you'll never even hear the names of, because that's how this business works. But. But I can say we need younger, you know, we need younger podcast hosts and we need more women. And so, like, that's one of the reasons why I was like, I gotta get. I gotta get Hayley on Mormon Stories as soon as she's willing to come.

Hayley Rawle [03:18:42] Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [03:18:45] I agree. And we need different types and styles, like Mormon stories. 5, 8, 13 hour episodes. I mean, it's crazy, I will say

Hayley Rawle [03:18:54] about Mormon Mormon stories. I feel like I had a wrong impression of Mormon stories because I feel like there's a little bit of a, like, connotation of Mormon stories for some people that it's a little bit more intense than I think it actually is. Because I hadn't listened to a lot of Mormon stories. And I think, I mean, I'd be curious how. How you two characterize it, but I just listened to Stephanie's episode. I had listened to Chelsea's a while ago.

John Dehlin [03:19:22] Stephanie Brinkerhoff, about a Mormon mom. Does much mushrooms.

Hayley Rawle [03:19:25] Yeah. And I think it's. I don't know, I think there's maybe a perception of Mormon stories that it's more hard hitting, which I think there's a lot of. You just do a lot of different things here. And I feel like I maybe mischaracterized Mormon stories before I had actually really

John Dehlin [03:19:43] listened to it as like just too intense or overly intense.

Hayley Rawle [03:19:47] Yeah, I think. Yeah, a little bit more intense because I don't even know what I was necessarily imagining. But honestly, I think it's because Mormon stories has been around so long. I think it was inherited, that mentality from when I was a Mormon and I had heard about like John Dehlin and Mormon stories. And I think I remember like hearing like you were this figure that was so, like such a. There was so much attached to like, who's John Dehlin? But I, I think I inherited that mentality about what Mormon stories was even

John Dehlin [03:20:23] into post Mormonism, like infamy, basically.

Hayley Rawle [03:20:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:20:26] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:20:27] Because, yeah, you've done it for so long and when you started it, no one had done it. And it was like almost the epitome of like anti Mormon literature would be like listening to Mormon stories. And obviously I didn't think that when I left the church, but I feel like that was maybe part of like my perception of. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:45] And then I got excommunicated and that didn't help.

Hayley Rawle [03:20:47] Yeah, yeah. It doesn't help the, the reputation among the Mormons, probably.

John Dehlin [03:20:51] Right.

Hayley Rawle [03:20:52] Yeah. But no, I really appreciate that. And I feel like stepping into the post Mormon space by starting a podcast has been really interesting because I was not really active in post Mormon spaces at all and I just had such a close group of friends around me. I didn't like, really reach out, out to any, like, online communities or like, didn't listen to many podcasts. And it's been so incredible, the level of support and encouragement and love and kindness. Not that I expected it to be a different way, but I've just been like, really blown away by it and just feel honored that people are so supportive and kind. And it's been really cool to also get more familiar with, like, people. And what's happening in the post Mormon space has been really fun.

John Dehlin [03:21:47] Yeah, I'm just, I'm just thinking about this. Like, there's, it's. It's like war. Like, it's. It's like being in the post Mormon podcasting space the past 15 to 18 years, it's like Vietnam, like cultural Vietnam. Like, like Sam Young, excommunicated. Natasha Helfer, excommunicated. Kate Kelly, excommunicated. Bill Real, excommunicated. Jeremy Reynolds, excommunicated. All the protests, all the anger, all the, all the internecine warfare between the podcasts and all the jealousy and all the backbiting and just seeing people leave the church and some of them, like, blow up their lives and other. Others do. Okay. But it's been really traumatic and intense and painful in addition to all the good for so long. I actually think it's like, totally awesome that you could, like, miss all that and come in during a time. I mean, if there ever were a time where a fun, chatty, relaxed, but thoughtful, female led post Mormon podcast was going to thrive, it's going to be now better than ever before. It's so nice that you could just slide in, not bring all that baggage with you, come with fresh eyes without all that trauma, and probably be received even by believers way more positively than those of us who, like, are missing psychological limbs and experiencing real PTSD from what it was like to try and do this.

Hayley Rawle [03:23:34] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:23:35] Earlier, you know, decades earlier.

Hayley Rawle [03:23:37] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:23:38] Like, I'm happy you're. I'm happy for you.

Hayley Rawle [03:23:40] Thanks. I really appreciate that. And it's. Yeah, it's fun to talk about this with you because I, I mean, it's just leading the way, you know, like, if you, when you did it, it came with such a different thing, as you just explained, that it just doesn't for me. And that's really fortunate. And the response I've had from community and from family and even from members is just so different now because of how much has changed and it's changing rapidly. I think that's part of why I saw this opportunity is like this also feels and I'm curious your thoughts on this, because from what I've noticed, there feels like a different level of interest in Mormonism from Never Mormons as well, with things happening on TikTok and the massive amount of influencers who are leaving the church. And I also recognize that as an opportunity to speak to it in a different way of talking about. Yeah, there's just because I don't have that baggage and because I'm coming from a different place. And it's. I think what I've always been so sure of is it's all needed, you know, and there's so much room for all of it because there's. People are gonna be in the mood for one thing one day and one thing the other day. But the thing that they have in common is we're all interested in the Mormonism, post Mormonism thing, you know, and there's different ways we can tap into that. I think too something I wanted to mention, that was my initial goal, one of my initial goals with my podcast that has maybe been shifting. But I try and I want to speak as best I can to the joys of leaving Mormonism. And I think again, for all those reasons you mentioned, I can do that in a different way because of when I've left the church. And focusing a little bit more on this can be fun. This can be exciting. Like, let's talk about the tank tops we're gonna wear and like, what cocktails are you drinking? Like, a little bit more on that. Trying to focus on like the celebration of leaving Mormonism and the trauma, which, I mean, I can't say that I really dodged talking about the trauma, but that's kind of was part of my thinking too, is like maybe a little bit more focus on that. But I will say as I've I'm very new to the podcast. But. But reading, you know, 150 responses of women talking about their modesty trauma. I was telling my husband, I'm like, ish. Like, I feel like I'm getting a little more radicalized by like realizing the scale at which this is going on. Like, literally reading 150 stories, which I did for today's episode of this Happened To Me at efy. My male leader made me put on a T shirt over my swimsuit and realizing, A, it's healing to know that we are in this together. We went through, through this together, but B, damn, this is really, really going on for all of us. And that I'm. It's been an interesting, like, emotional journey for me because I almost feel like I'm seeing into so many more people's lives of how devastating this is for them and also realizing, sure, my family's been cool about it, but having my DMs full of people who are like, I can't talk to my mom anymore, so I enjoy listening to your podcast because I don't have a relationship with my mom and realizing that's the church's fault, you know, and being more and more exposed to more people's trauma and more people's stories. I think it's two things. Like I said, it's healing and validating, but it's also really overwhelming how significant the damage that's been done by the church.

Life After Mormonism and Post-Mormon Podcasting

John Dehlin [03:27:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. There's so much I want to respond to. Like, if I had to think about what the hardest parts of this job have been for me, you know, one would definitely be the way it's impacted my personal relationships. And I think you being more light hearted and more about positive stuff and less about truth claims and less about all the hard stuff and attacking the church and criticism like that will make it probably easier for you than it was for me, because for me, it's cost a lot of personal relationships, close people who I just don't have relationships with anymore. So that's been hard. All the attacks of, like, not more from, like, fellow ex Mormon podcasters and YouTubers than, like, even from believers, you know, that's been super hard.

Hayley Rawle [03:28:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:28] But by. By far, I think I remember a TikTok or something that you posted where it's like, man, my podcast isn't going to be angry. Like, a lot of the existing stuff out there, like, if I had to describe, and I don't know if I mischaracterize you just now, but I thought I remembered something saying something around those lines. Like, I thought on the one hand, like, that's awesome. We need more light and we need more joy. And, like, if Hayley's going to bring that and if girls camp is going to bring that, that I was, like, liking it. And like, you go, you know what I mean? But, like, if. If I had to tell you what has been the hardest thing, it's just the constant exposure to so much pain. It's like marriages that get ruined. It's like people that become suicidal. It's like LGBT people that either die or want to die. It's like. It's like the modesty, shaming, and all these things that you find out, not just that the church has done it for a couple hundred years, but they're still doing it, and they should all know better. And then you're just going to get these constant waves of trauma of the way the church has damaged innumerable lives and relationships and marriages, past, present, and future. And there's only so much of that that you can get exposed to without you experiencing this compound trauma, not just of whatever you experienced. And you experience some stuff, but then you're going to start just absorbing the trauma of all your viewers and listeners.

Hayley Rawle [03:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:58] And over time, it's really hard to not get angry.

Hayley Rawle [03:30:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:02] And then to have that anger not bleed out on the podcast. So I. I want you to be eternally fun and chatty and informal.

Hayley Rawle [03:30:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:11] But I. But I'll just say that that might be a challenge for you over time. Time.

Hayley Rawle [03:30:16] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [03:30:17] Maybe.

Hayley Rawle [03:30:17] No, totally. I think that's been something. It's been interesting to see, even in the short, short time I've done it. The different waves I've gone in of a. Realizing how susceptible I still am to responses like, at the beginning, I had quite a few active Mormons saying, hey, I really appreciate that you're doing this podcast in such a, quote, respectful way. It's like, damn, now these people are listening. Now I got to be respectful. Okay. Well, then it just kind of managing. I just had to realize pretty early I cannot do that. I can't manage how this is received. It cannot be all things to all people. And I think I was sort of wanting to be that. I think, too, it's been interesting because I have recognized essentially just my privilege, my privilege in the cost of leaving, that I'm straight, that I'm white.

John Dehlin [03:31:10] And your husband went with you.

Hayley Rawle [03:31:11] Yes. Yes. All these layers of privilege that my family was so cool about it. All these layers of privilege where I'm saying, okay, I might have the capability to speak to it in a different way than someone who. Yeah. Wants, you know, all the things and trying to wrestle with. Okay, what does that. I mean, this is the subject I could talk about forever and ever, because how much of that. How much can I speak to just where I'm at or do I. Should I be more angry on behalf of other people?

John Dehlin [03:31:50] I feel as a voice for the voice.

Hayley Rawle [03:31:52] Exactly. And, yeah. As a white Straight woman. I have this level of privilege where a lot of people don't. And so I wouldn't. I would hate for someone to feel like, oh, well, she's just, like, being so chill about this. This, because, you know, she didn't have to be told XYZ things. So I think there's a lot of that I've been wrestling with. And it's just. It's wild mentally, because you're going. I mean, there's. Everyone has a different experience with it, and everyone wants to hear someone talk about it in a different way. And honestly, I've been mostly just so supported. I think what I. And maybe an issue is I've kind of been characterizing the podcast as I've been doing it. Like, it's a. It's coming. It's crystallizing as I'm doing it. And I think I'm realizing, too, more and more I'm not necessarily trying to be casual or, like, not angry because, like, if you listen to my episode today about modesty, I'm literally just enraged the entire time. I think, though, I'm trying to be. I don't even know. I think there's just more. I'm just trying to be me. I'm trying to talk about it the way I want to talk about it. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. But even that can get complicated, right? Because I think anyone who's left the church could have a phenomenal post Mormon podcast. Really, Truly. Because we all have stories to tell, and we all have our own take on it, and we all have our own ideas about how we might want to, like, speak to these things. So I'm trying to stay true to me, but I'm also trying to check my privilege along the way. And, yeah, it's just really, really complicated, for sure. But honestly, it's been really fun and it's been. It's felt really fulfilling to share my thoughts on it, which is, you know, and. And bring people on to share their thoughts on it and to collect stories and share those and have people say, like, hey, thanks for speaking to it in this way. That resonates with me, you know, because different voices resonate differently. But, yeah, there's a whole lot that comes with it. A lot. And being at this stage of it where I'm seeing, okay, I think, you know, I'm getting traction. Like, this could really be a thing that's really exciting, but it's also really daunting because the more people listening, the more pressure the More opinions and, you know, it's exciting, but it's also, yeah. Overwhelming.

John Dehlin [03:34:42] I want, there's so many places I still want to go. But we're, you know, we're almost at four hours. So really quickly I'll just say your point about, about lots of never Mormons being interested in Mormon culture. That's such an interesting change in the dynamic. My listeners and viewers are sick of me saying that half of my viewers and listeners now have never been Mormon, which is kind of mind blowing.

Hayley Rawle [03:35:07] Yeah. Fascinating.

John Dehlin [03:35:08] If you think about the past 20 years, there were these moments of time, we call them Mormon moments. So like when the PBS did a documentary called the Mormons and it was like a two part, two hour series and that was like a Mormon moment. And then Prop 8 in 2008 was like this Mormon moment. And then Mitt Romney running for president twice, there were these two Mormon moments when the Book of Mormon musical came out and there are all these waves of like, okay, now is the Mormon moment. And everybody got interested more around those kind of topics, but then they kind of lost interest. And it, it's just in the past few years with all these kind of, with COVID and all these, this, this fascination with, with Hulu and Netflix and Amazon prime and then all these cult, frankly cult documentaries, there's just this upswing in a fascination with Scientology, with Jehovah's Witnesses, with Nexium and the Vow and. But then also with the flds. That's kind of pulled in a global interest in Mormonism. And I just wanted to say. Yeah, that's a really, that's, that's new.

Hayley Rawle [03:36:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:19] Like five, 10 years ago, it was just this niche of like ex Mormonism, ex Mormons and post Mormons and maybe a little bit of progressive Mormons and almost no orthodox believing Mormons.

Hayley Rawle [03:36:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:30] And now it's totally shifted. Yeah, it's, it's, it's cool.

Hayley Rawle [03:36:34] It's interesting you say that because that's more of what's been happening on TikTok. And if anything feels radicalizing it, it's when you talk casually about garments and get a response from a never Mormon and you realize how crazy it is because you can't understand how crazy it is. You know, I can't. I grew. This is what I did. It's how I grew up. And that response that I've been getting more and more on social media from people who aren't even familiar with Mormonism, that's what's made me feel most, not even necessarily angry, but has caused Me. Most pause almost of realizing, wait, people don't know what's going on? No, no, most don't know what's going

John Dehlin [03:37:21] on most in the United States, it's like, Mormons. Aren't they the Amish? You know what I mean?

Hayley Rawle [03:37:25] Or. Or I have them. I met a Mormon. They were super nice, right?

John Dehlin [03:37:29] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:37:30] Always up to us, like, Dottie Marie, like, so people. Oh, Mormons are good at singing. And they're, like, really sweet. That's what's making me feel the most alarmed right now is like, no, wait, why are Mormons just passing in society as, like, something that's not pretty crazy, you know? And, like, that is. Is shocking me to see people be like, wait, garments. Like, what? And I'm like, no, you guys. Like, this is going on still right now. This is happening. And realizing people from outside of it who have no connection to it there. Their response. That's been super interesting to witness talking about it on the Internet.

John Dehlin [03:38:08] And the garments are some of the most benign things.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:10] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:38:11] It's like soaking and sexual shame and LGBT death.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:15] I'm like, you guys don't even know.

John Dehlin [03:38:18] I'm like, fraud.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:38:20] Financial fraud.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:38:22] You know.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:23] Oh, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:38:25] That's patriarchy. Toxic patriarchy.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:27] Seriously?

John Dehlin [03:38:27] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:28] Like, literally on Tick Tock, people are like, like, oh, my goodness. Like this and this. I'm like, oh, boy, do I have a lot to tell you. This is just the literal tip of the iceberg. Like, there is so much more. And that feels crazy to me because I think when I was a Mormon, there was a little bit of a validation feedback of, like, well, I. I mean, I interacted with people who weren't Mormon, and it was just like, oh, yeah, you're a Mormon. It wasn't like, oh, I'm a Nexium member.

John Dehlin [03:38:58] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:38:58] Because people would have been like, oh, whoa, that's a little crazy. I know Mormonism is different from Nexium, but I think people don't understand, and that's why the response is very different. And then it's almost like a gaslighting effect because you're like, wait, why was everyone, like, letting. Why still is everyone letting some of these things happen?

John Dehlin [03:39:16] Why is this. Okay.

Hayley Rawle [03:39:17] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [03:39:18] If there's something that the church has been really successful is to keeping the good name of the church.

John Dehlin [03:39:23] Yeah. For 200 years and hiding the battle bad.

Gerardo Sumano [03:39:26] Right.

John Dehlin [03:39:26] Right.

Hayley Rawle [03:39:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:27] Yeah. Like, there was a. There was literally an LGBT suicide epidemic that's still going for, like, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, depending on how you're counting and everybody's yawning. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess, okay, that's, that's old news, let's move on. Or like the fact that women in 2023 are still. The entire gender is second. Second class citizens.

Hayley Rawle [03:39:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:51] Can't hold just basic levels. Levels of responsibility in the church. Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [03:39:55] Nobody.

John Dehlin [03:39:55] Even, Even the Mormons don't. Nobody cares.

Hayley Rawle [03:39:58] No. Literally, a 12 year old boy passing the sacrament has more power than I could ever dream. And for some reason, like, we're letting it happen. It feels really shocking to me.

John Dehlin [03:40:08] Bizarre land.

Hayley Rawle [03:40:09] Yeah, it is. But that's why you feel like that's what you have to reckon with and reconcile. Because I was talking about the same topic with friends the other day and I was like, yes, that's happening. But at the same time it's also happening. So, like, am I the crazy one that, like, because this is just. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's this weird mental trick.

John Dehlin [03:40:31] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:40:31] Because you're like, wait, I guess this is being allowed to happen. So I guess it's maybe not as big of a deal as it now feels to me on the outside. Like, wait, my parents just let me go on a mission. They just like thought that was okay. Okay. People are still going on missions to this day. My cousins are going on missions. And then it makes you feel crazy for being like, missions are objectively crazy and harmful, you know, So I feel like there's so much there. And exposing the content to the never Mormon audience has really just as of recently, as of the past few weeks, has been like, putting me in a whole different mental space than I've ever been about it. And I think doing the podcast, there's certainly coming back full circle. There's lots of, you know, and then you get the Mormon trolls and you're like, oh, Mormons are still saying like this to people and still believing stuff like this. Like, it's exposing you in so much quicker pace to all of it. And it's a lot.

John Dehlin [03:41:30] There's the, the, you know, 80, 000 victims of sexual abuse from the Boy Scouts program within the Mormon Church alone that like, literally is annihilated. The boy scene. Scouts of America as we know it, they're on top of, you know, the Associated Press and all the spotlight, like patterns of sexual abuse of children and teens in the church that's like hundreds of years in existence. And everybody's just like, yeah. Oh, you know, but Mormons are sweet, nice people. It's like, well, there's an Epidemic of. Of, like, protecting abusers, you know, and covering up and silencing victims. And it's epidemic. And it's like, oh, yeah, Mormons are sweet, good people.

Hayley Rawle [03:42:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:12] It's not that I think Mormons are evil, and I totally don't even hate the church, and I don't even want to destroy it. But it's like, how is this not a problem?

Hayley Rawle [03:42:20] Absolutely. It's almost impossible to not be, like, an activist in some way if you're talking about any of this. And I feel like part of what helps me, too, is thinking we need all sorts of activism. We need all sorts of different takes on activism because, you know, it's hard. Like, you were mentioning this before. I'm like, there is value in speaking to this in a way that progressive Mormons are willing to listen to. There's value in that. But to do that, you do have to dilute it a little bit. You do have to shift your language. You do have to shift your tone. There's a value. Yeah, you do. And it's like, do we. You know, and this is a much bigger problem beyond just Mormonism. But it's a lot to wrestle with of how much am I willing to share, shift, and to kind of adjust. And for me, how much am I willing to take on as a person in how I speak about this? And like, for me, for example, with history and truth claims, I'm like, I can't. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna touch that. That's not my thing. That's never gonna be my thing. And I don't have the resources to, like, adequately address that. So I'm, like, letting other people do that, you know, And I feel like that's covered, but it's just choosing, like, how much of the do we reckon with, how much of this can we take on? And, I mean, you've been doing it for so long, you know better than anyone.

John Dehlin [03:43:40] But I'm just, you know, like, the truth claims, they're covered. And like you, the majority of Mormons have no idea. They. Even the problems I know exist.

Hayley Rawle [03:43:48] I know.

John Dehlin [03:43:48] You know what I mean?

Hayley Rawle [03:43:49] Well, that's what I'm saying. And here I am, like, in this weird mental zone where I'm, like, posting on TikTok, like, hey, this is what Mormons are doing in the temple. And then next video, I'm like, here's a cute tank top that you post. Mormon gals, like, might want to buy. Like, it's such a weird place to be because I'm trying to do like different things and I feel like, yeah, I don't know. One of the things, one of the ways I've sort of like crystallized what I'm trying to do is like talk less about post Mormonism and talk more about life through the lens of post Mormonism. And that feels kind of like a nice way to imagine it because life is happening every day and inevitably my post Mormonism is interacting with how I'm living my life. And that's kind of a way I want to look at it too. As opposed to like every week. When you listen to my podcast, we're like tackling this gigantic, complex problem and that feels like kind of a good way to articulate it. But at the same time then I'm like, well, well, maybe we need more people just really tackling post Mormonism, you know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:44:54] Well, and it's so, you know, the forward looking stuff, it's what I, what we try to do with thrive. It's so needed. And it's not just needed in post Mormonism because part of what draws people to Mormon stories and, and other post Mormon theme podcasts is that people are leaving religion and high demand religion everywhere.

Hayley Rawle [03:45:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:14] Evangelical Christianity is on the road. Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Orthodox Catholics, Orthodox Jews, they're all losing their members in masses. So they all need to figure out how to do life without a high demand religion. So we, we have the opportunity to pave the way. So being forward looking, being positive and like celebrating having a vibe of celebration instead of getting drugged down in truth claim and activism and criticism, it actually is providing a really needed service not just for post Mormons who need it badly, but also just all the other people out in the world that are trying to figure out how to do life.

Hayley Rawle [03:45:56] Totally. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [03:45:58] It's a huge need.

Hayley Rawle [03:45:59] I hope so. And I hope too. Like, I think what's so cool about this space is that I can say, hey, go to Mormon stories for this, this, you know, like there's, if we're working together then we can cover it all, but if one person has the burden of doing all of that, it's just not going to work. And I feel like that feels comforting to me. And maybe that's where some of your earlier questions were pointing to is like, maybe at the beginning or in some ways I've spoken to it, which is, was not my intention. I would never want to be like, oh, listen to mine instead of theirs. It would be like mine maybe has this take if that's resonating but like.

John Dehlin [03:46:40] Or this focus.

Hayley Rawle [03:46:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:46:42] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:46:42] And being able to. That's why I think more. That's why I feel like, okay, I can do this. Because even though there are other people doing this, like, there's different things that we're doing and we can cover more of what needs to be done if more people are doing it.

John Dehlin [03:46:58] You also have to protect your mental health and your energy.

Hayley Rawle [03:47:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:01] You know, because. Because this can each. This business can eat you up.

Hayley Rawle [03:47:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:05] And it almost always does.

Hayley Rawle [03:47:07] I know.

John Dehlin [03:47:08] So if you don't have good boundaries, like you boundaried your grandpa. If you don't boundary this space, it takes you down.

Hayley Rawle [03:47:14] Yeah. I mean, we were dming about this, but I had a viral TikTok and it was complaining about men on mother's Day and whoa. It's. It is wild. Like you cannot comprehend what it feels like to have literally, literally thousands of people tell you. One person dming me and saying you, your husband's a piece of, you should divorce him. And then the next person dming me and saying you, your husband should divorce you, you're a piece of. It's like, whoa.

John Dehlin [03:47:43] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:47:44] Like you're, you're understanding that no matter what you say, someone's going to agree, disagree on this end. And someone's going to disagree on this end no matter what you say. If you say I like the color blue, like that's going to happen. But the more controversial topics, which this is one of the biggest controversial topics there is, those responses are even more charged. And just figuring out how to manage your space is really interesting. And I feel like I'm kind of at a point in my journey where I'm like, well, I'm getting like, I'm appreciate. I'm appreciative of like growth and sometimes the controversy can fuel growth, but I'm definitely seeing like, okay, I need to, to be certain about what I want to do here and make sure that I'm protecting that because this could get really crazy really quick.

John Dehlin [03:48:31] Yeah. Notoriety and fame is also super hard just for your own mental health and well being, but for intimate relationships and family relationships and when you add in the social media element of trying to like, this is what it means to be a mom these days. This is what it means to be married or, you know, and then, and then you're starting to live visibly, it, it can be really challenging to, to not let that kind of go to your head. I'm not saying being stuck up or prideful, just like you're just constantly conscious of what image you're putting out there and how people are receiving it. And there are these weird feedback loops where you're trying to be authentic, but you're also on this fake social media platform. Try to look good and put your best foot forward. And it's a lot.

Hayley Rawle [03:49:21] Well, particularly as postmormons, because I was talking about this. My friend and I talk about this a lot. But there's already a burden on post Mormons to be happy, because heaven forbid, if we left the church and we're unhappy, then people think you made the wrong choice. Or if you leave the church and get divorced, it's the church. It's because you left the church. Right. That's what everyone will think. So you have this extra burden on you of being. Being really happy, being a fantastic mom, having an equitable, amazing marriage, all of these things. You want to do that anyway, and then doing that publicly, you want to do that, like, times a hundred. So it is this really big burden of feeling like, okay, I. I don't want. And I feel like I'm past this to a large extent, but I still do feel like there's people looking like, oh, if she. Even if this podcast I'm doing fails, it's like. Like, that might mean something to them about me leaving the church. You know, like, they're connecting it to something different, and that feels hard to let go of and just be like, people are going to make your assumptions about your life. But especially if you're a post Mormon, a vocal post Mormon in any capacity. That's magnified a lot.

John Dehlin [03:50:31] Yeah. Yeah. Well, really quickly, in terms of your ambitions for the podcast, like, I. And probably who are we desperately want you to get on YouTube. Are you thinking about that?

Hayley Rawle [03:50:41] Yes. Yeah, I am. I talked to Gerardo about that, and I really want to.

John Dehlin [03:50:45] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [03:50:45] I think, yeah. There's always, like, the barrier of just figuring it out, and then once you've got it figured out, it's like a system and it rolls. But, yes, I would love to do YouTube.

John Dehlin [03:50:53] Well, we're here to help in any way we can with. Because I think that'll be really good for your viewership and for your reach and for your impact.

Hayley Rawle [03:51:02] Thanks.

John Dehlin [03:51:02] If you do that. Not that, you know, help. I mean, your husband's, what, a videographer?

Hayley Rawle [03:51:06] Yeah, but he's not a YouTuber, so I might still take you up on that really quickly.

John Dehlin [03:51:12] Do you. Do you have a dream of doing this full time? Of, like. I know. I don't want to, like, get you in trouble with your boss, but like quitting your day job and like becoming a full time social influencer. YouTuber, podcaster.

Hayley Rawle [03:51:25] Yeah, I would love to. I think my dream of dreams, my manifestation that I will vocalize is I think, think writing a book would be like an end goal. I think being a figure who's willing to talk about this, I kind of have a hope or a hunch that there will be opportunities that will arise from that beyond podcasting, with that global interest you're talking about, I feel like there will be more and more opportunity where people are looking for people who will speak about their experiences, whether that's like, like on TV or you know, as someone who's, you know, the post Mormon that they can consult about whatever

John Dehlin [03:52:08] documentaries, news stories, things like that.

Hayley Rawle [03:52:11] Exactly. So I feel like just establishing myself as someone who's like willing to speak on this, has a lot of thoughts on this, is integrating myself more and more with other people's experiences. I guess I say that to say I'm very open to see where the road leads needs. But for right now, I'm loving podcasting, but it's a hell of a lot of work and I'm very busy taking care of my twins and doing my other job. So yeah, I definitely have goals of expanding it, but I'm also trying to kind of check that against not just growing for the sake of growth, but growing as it feels right and as it like makes sense for my life. And you know, at the stage of motherhood I'm at and I'm just trying not to run faster than I have strength as, as they say, that takes

John Dehlin [03:53:00] a lot of people out. So yeah, so one huge component in making that manifestation reality is monetizing what you do at some point. Right now, is there a way for people to donate to support your creative efforts?

Hayley Rawle [03:53:15] Yeah, there is actually. That's funny you ask because that is such a mental, such a huge mental block for me. And I have this like little link that I like, is hidden in the show notes. But there is a link in the show notes. It's just through Spotify. People can donate. I'm hoping to do merch very soon, which will be fun and that'll be a monetization thing. But right now it's just listening to my podcast because I do have just ads set up through the platform that I use. So there's like a pretty small but a little bit of money when you listen.

John Dehlin [03:53:47] Anchor.

Hayley Rawle [03:53:48] Yes, it's anchoring Spotify. Yeah, they changed it. It's called Spotify by four podcasters, I think. But yeah, it's anchor.

John Dehlin [03:53:54] So I'll just say the. I'll just say that for me, having a donate button that people can donate that defaults to a monthly donation, even if it's just set at $10 a month, has been really, really. That's what Mormon Stories is built on is like. Like 1500 people that donate somewhere between 10 and 100 bucks a month.

Hayley Rawle [03:54:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:54:19] And they kind of set it and forget it. I use donor box is the way that I do that. I used to do PayPal, but, like, I'm going to just gently offer that to you. And you basically make a deal with your viewers and listeners and you say, listen, I need to be compensated for this if you buy, you know, or it'll die.

Hayley Rawle [03:54:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:54:37] Because it will.

Hayley Rawle [03:54:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:54:38] If you don't get paid, ultimately it will. So you say, I'll make a deal with you. If you like this content, I'll put up a donate button. You become a monthly donor. I'll put out quality content weekly, and that'll be our deal. You contribute a little bit and. And I'll create great content and I'll do this. I'll do this content for as long as I have financial support. I'm not telling you what to do.

Hayley Rawle [03:55:00] I know, but that's. It's good to hear. It's. I. Maybe it's the Mormon woman in me, but asking for compensation and priestcraft. Yeah. It makes me feel. Well, especially talking about Mormonism, because oddly. I'm sorry, I know we're trying to wrap up, but the people I've had most mad at me are white Mormon men who think I'm trying to make money. Which is so funny because I'm like, it's just ridiculous. Oh, the hypocrisy, the irony. It's so rich. But it does scare me because I feel like once you attach money to something, it's so easy for people to discount anything else beyond that, which is so silly. I know it's irrational and I know I'll get over it, but it is a really interesting mental block because it's like, as soon as people can be like, oh, look, she's making money, it feels like it becomes so much easier for them to discount the actual mission, you know? But you're right. You can't do things for free. It's just like. Doesn't work that way. It's not sustainable.

John Dehlin [03:56:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been through a lot of hard things in the past 20 years. I think the Hardest decision I made was to let my board pay me what I was making before I ever started podcasting. So, like, just to get me back to what I was making at, you know, when I ended my career.

Hayley Rawle [03:56:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:22] Fifteen years later, after two master's degrees and a PhD and a globally successful podcast, I'm like, I guess I'll let the board pay me my market value or under my market value. But I was terrified, and I've been savaged for that. And so it is super important and a super difficult hill to overcome.

Hayley Rawle [03:56:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:46] But please try and overcome it.

Hayley Rawle [03:56:48] I will.

John Dehlin [03:56:48] If you can.

Hayley Rawle [03:56:49] I will. I appreciate that. That's super, super helpful. So thank you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:56:52] You.

Closing Thoughts and Where to Find Hayley

John Dehlin [03:56:52] Well, we're almost in four hours. I'm going to keep this under four. Hayley. Roll, roll.

Hayley Rawle [03:56:59] Raw.

John Dehlin [03:56:59] Ra. Thank you so much for Girls Camp. Thanks so much for this amazing story, and it's been wonderful. Can you just tell everybody how to find your stuff and how to support you?

Hayley Rawle [03:57:11] Yeah, of course. Thanks so much for having me. And thanks for the support from day one. I really appreciate it. I am Girls Camp podcast on Instagram and Hayley Rawle on TikTok. And you can find me, and you can find me on Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. Girls Camp. It's all one word. Girls Camp. It'll pop right up. And that'll be my podcast.

John Dehlin [03:57:34] Tick tock.

Hayley Rawle [03:57:35] Tick tock is Hayley Rawle.

John Dehlin [03:57:36] Right. And then soon YouTube.

Hayley Rawle [03:57:39] Soon YouTube, which will be Girls Camp podcast. When it's YouTube.

John Dehlin [03:57:42] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [03:57:43] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:57:44] And they donate to you right now through the little link in your description.

Hayley Rawle [03:57:48] Link in show notes. I'll make it super, super prominent. I'll make it more prominent. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:57:54] Yeah. Are you going to get a website at some point?

Hayley Rawle [03:57:56] I want to. I want to. When I start doing merch, which should be soon.

John Dehlin [03:58:00] So get a website.

Hayley Rawle [03:58:01] Fingers crossed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:02] All right. Well, thanks, Hayley, for coming on Mormon Stories. Thanks, Gerardo. Yeah. For. For help to make this happen. Thanks to Zach.

Gerardo Sumano [03:58:13] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:58:13] For greasing the wheel.

Hayley Rawle [03:58:14] Serving a mission.

John Dehlin [03:58:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just thanks for all you do to make Mormon stories possible. Find a. My biggest piece of advice is, I would say find a Margi. It's too late for that, but find a Gerardo, and that will be crucial, honestly.

Hayley Rawle [03:58:29] Y. I won't steal Gerardo himself, but

John Dehlin [03:58:32] I will find Harado's defects. So I'll, you know, I'll deal with it for you.

Hayley Rawle [03:58:37] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:38] Anyway, thanks, Rodo.

Gerardo Sumano [03:58:39] Thank you. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [03:58:41] And take everybody. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Support Girls Camp podcast and Hayley Roll and and support Mormon Stories. If you can mormorestories.org click on that donate button. Become a monthly donor and we'll provide this content for as long as we have the support for it. Thanks everybody. Take care and we'll see you all again super soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.