Introduction and Greg's Intentions

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1661

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is September 8, 2022, and it has been a busy few weeks and months here on Mormon Stories podcast, but I am just over the moon excited for today's episode. I know I say that frequently, but today is a really special Mormon Stories interview.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Today we are interviewing Greg or Gregory Garretson, the grandson of Mormon apostle of the late or deceased Mormon apostle. And I'd even say beloved Mormon Apostle Joseph B. Worthland. And for those of you who have never been Mormon, the, the, the first, the, the apostles. You know, the Mormon church has a first presidency, which is a prophet, and then two counselors. They are apostles.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Just like Jesus had 12 apostles. They're considered apostles and special witnesses of Christ. And then within the Mormon Church, there's a quorum of the 12 apostles, again, just like Jesus assembled. So these 15 men are, I think, the closest thing to royalty that you could imagine within a Mormon context. These are men that are viewed as special witnesses of Christ. They are viewed as people who have likely spoken with Christ or met Christ. That's at least the cultural perception of them.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] They, you know, when they walk into an auditorium of a thousand people or 15,000 people or 30,000 people, everybody stands. They are revered as the right hand man, right hand men of Jesus and as the most righteous men in the world by, you know, anywhere between 5 and 16 million Mormons across the world. So if you, if you think about royalty, that's about as close as it gets. So of course it has been very rare to have family members of apostles come on Mormon Stories podcast to kind of share their stories. And having said that, there have been a few. So we did have the son of Spencer B.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Kimball, who is a Mormon prophet. He did come on. Ed Kimball was his name. It's a great episode. He was a faithful Mormon, but a progressive, liberal Mormon. He's come on Mormon Stories. We had the granddaughter of M. Russell Ballard come on. Laura Roper. I believe I'm a little fuzzy on the names. She came on and talked about being the granddaughter of M. Russell Ballard. And then we also had two of the grandchildren of Neela Maxwell come on Mormon Stories podcast. Ashley Sanders and Kimball Sanders. Very early on in the time of Mormon Stories, they were still like BYU student age.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] I may be forgetting one or two others, but those are the ones that come to mind. But it's relatively rare. What's more interesting to me is the fact that I've met and corresponded with many let's just say children and or grandchildren of current and former Mormon apostles and many who have completely lost their faith and even left the church. What's been really stark to me is to learn about this kind of either explicit or un unspoken code, which is that if you're in the family of a Mormon apostle, you would never ever come out publicly and talk about it. And so that's what makes today a really special interview because we have the grandson of Joseph B.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Wirthland, beloved Mormon apostle, who has gone through his own faith journey that we'll talk about. We won't give away the ending, but not only has he had, you know, grew up as the son of an apostle, has stories to tell about his grandpa and grandma whom he loves and, and really respects, but he's also willing to talk about his life as the grandson of an apostle, Mormon apostle, the good and the bad and the ugly about that. What was hard for him. So we're going to be telling his story first about what it was like, the positive and the negative. About that, we'll talk about his own faith journey.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] That's going to be part one of our interview today. So that'll be a couple hours. And then part two of the interview will be just an open Q and A where I just ask him a gazillion questions about his memories of his grandfather and his impressions of, of what it's like to be a Mormon apostle from the point of view of a grandchild of that apostle. And Greg, you've been really wanting to be careful that you're not trying to be the expert on your grandpa. You're just, just wanting to share your memories and experiences. But welcome, but welcome to Mormon Stories, and thank you so much for being willing to come on.

Greg Gerritsen [00:05:15] Well, thank you and thank you for having me. And I do want to have the disclaimer that these are my opinions, my experiences, and in no way am I trying to be the spokesman for the family or be the authority figure of what it was like, because everybody has different experiences and they see things through their own eyes. And I don't want to take away from any of that, but this is just what I experienced as well as what I saw and perceived to be reality. So I gave.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] And thank you so much for being willing to come on. I think this is a real act of courage. Some people may not even get how in, in my view, courageous this is, but I really appreciate it and I know many of my viewers and listeners will too. I. It may seem weird, but is it okay? Do you mind talking about this? Is there a explicit or an implicit code? And if so, like, before we jump into your story, what family or church culture would, would be coming to your mind as you're considering reaching out to me.

Greg Gerritsen [00:06:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] And saying I may or may not want to come on the podcast? What would be the familial or cultural influences that would be coming down to bear on you?

Greg Gerritsen [00:06:51] There's definitely pressure not to draw attention to the, the family, especially the legacy. And it's a very unspoken rule, but it is there. And you don't do anything that would ever tarnish the name, the legacy of the brethren.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Meaning what? Meaning the brethren. Meaning who?

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:23] The quorum of the twelve apostles and the first presidency, the church. You don't ever do anything that would embarrass them. And that's the code that I think the family kind of lets other family know that that's a code because I've never heard anything from my granddad telling us what we're allowed and not allowed to do. But I definitely heard that from aunts, uncles, parents, that you have to act in a certain way or there's, there's things that are okay and not okay and you just know that something like this would be, be shunned. It'd be frowned upon very, very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] So is this, is this a scary thing for you or do you have, would you, would fears or worries come up?

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:34] No, I wouldn't say I don't, I don't have fears over this. I do wonder how it's going to be received by family. I think I can see some, some people not, not taking it too well. But at the same time, I think, I think there's more benefit from, from light being shed on things than, than the risk of upsetting a few people.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] So let's start there with your intention. So let's have you say what your intentions are not and then let's have you say what your intentions are in doing this interview.

Greg Gerritsen [00:09:19] Thank you. I really appreciate that because I don't want the limelight. I'm not looking to have it be an attention grabbing scheme by myself. I want people to understand that

John Dehlin [00:09:39] first

Greg Gerritsen [00:09:39] of all, I really believe that my granddad had the best of intentions. I don't believe that he was trying to deceive people. But also I want people to know that there's a lot of man worship in the church and a lot of people place such high reverence for these people that they often put the people before their own families.

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:18] They try to get in front of These people so much that they don't realize the human aspects of these people, as well as, like, what's really important in life. Do you really need to impress someone that you've never met and that you.

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:42] You have no, like, you have no business of trying to impress someone that they won't remember you? I mean, it's just with. With a church, with 16 million people and who knows how many active when they meet someone, there is little to no chance that they are going to remember that person yet.

Greg Gerritsen [00:11:11] Over the course of my life, when my granddad was alive, there were a lot of people that worked really hard to get in front of him. And I think the overall thing that I want to get out of this is that people should not work so hard to try to impress someone that at the end of the day, you have no chance of really making a big impact on. And the people that you do have a big impact on are the ones around you, and that's where your energy should be focused on.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] I also, for me, I'm really interested in knowing the human side both of. Of what it's like to be a family member of someone who is given disproportionate attention and power and influence. What it's like to be the family member.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:14] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Of that person. So, so your, Your story, especially about how you retreated on your mission and even after, was really pulled on my heartstrings quite a bit, the pressures and the distortions, but also to humanize the office of the apostle, to talk about what's hard about the role. What.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:33] Yeah, what.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] What made your grandpa uncomfortable, what things he didn't like about it, what some of the interpersonal dynamics were in. In the position that people wouldn't see or understand. Not, not as sort of like a National Enquirer kind of like.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] But. But just to humanize your grandpa and your grandma and everyone around them.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:56] Right. And a lot of. A lot of those. And I will put out the disclaimer that those, a lot of those will be impressions and just firsthand experiences from my point of view. And again, this is not his autobiography. It's not his words, as he would say it.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] But just your experience.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:20] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Yeah. All right. Well, Gregory Garrettson, where does your Mormon story begin?

Greg's Background and Family Origins

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:28] And you can call me Greg. I go by Greg.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] Greg.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:31] I only go by Gregory when I'm in trouble and when my mom and dad were really mad at me.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] All right, Greg, where does your Mormon story story begin?

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:42] Well, I grew up in a family of seven kids. I was born in North Ogden, Utah. My family had lived there for a little while. I'm the sixth of seven kids, so I have four brothers and two sisters, and I'm just right at the end.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Your. I'm assuming, since your last name is at Workland, that your mom was the Worthland. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:13] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Do you want to talk about where. Where she fit in the family?

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:16] Yeah, so. So my mom was kind of the middle child. She has one brother and I believe seven sisters. Oh, so she. They had a. They had a big family. I've. I've got over 40 cousins, and that's

John Dehlin [00:14:34] nine kids by Joseph B. Wirthlin and his wife. Is that.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:39] So big family.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Where'd she grow up?

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:41] She grew up just right by East High.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] Oh, so that's High School Musical. That's High School Musical film.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:48] And then is that.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] Is that kind of like Harvard, Yale area, or is that Sugar House? Is that.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:54] Yeah, yeah. So she grew up on Military Drive.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's where the Huntsmans lived. You know, that's.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] So I think the McConkies, did they live near there?

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:08] I. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, that area. And there's quite a few people that. I guess that's a very popular place. And. But my mom and dad were Both born in 1950, and my dad grew up in the Highland area.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:30] And so he went to Highland High. My. My mom went to East High.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] And these are like five miles apart. East High and Highland High are not far apart.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:39] Yeah. And I mean, for me, where I grew up, that would be the same high school, but down here in the city, it's.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] Yeah, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:46] It's more condensed, so it's kind of

John Dehlin [00:15:50] referred to as East Bench, Salt Lake City. Is that fair to say?

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:53] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. It's within walking distance of the University of Utah. We'd always. When we went to football games, we'd park at their place and go and walk.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Yeah, walk to the stadium.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:07] So, yeah, I mean, I grew up in a pretty big family. We had a lot of sibling rivalries and lots of. Lots of cousin time with having over 40 cousins. I think there was 42. The numbers. I'm not going to be dead on with a family that big.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Are the Garretsons. Your dad's side is that pioneer stock?

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:40] Yeah, so it was very. My dad's side is. So my dad's parents, they divorced when he was about 11, and they had. So his grandpa from his mom is Torleaf Knappis, the artist that did the Mormon handcart monument at Temple Square.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Nice.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:12] And he's done quite a bit of artwork for the church. So we had that legacy on his side of the family. And then his dad and his grandpa was kind of a rough guy. He was. I wouldn't say he was active at all. And his dad was in and out of activity his whole church life. And it was kind of. When I grew up, we kind of joked about having the extremes on both ends of the spectrum of having an apostle on one hand. And then I had a grandpa that I. This is something that a lot of my family doesn't like to talk about, but I had an uncle that I had no idea even existed till I was 21 years old.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] How that. Why is that? Just. Was there something about him that made your family not talk about his existence?

Growing Up as a Grandson of an Apostle

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:16] It's just. Just an unpleasant reality that my. My grandpa had a meaning.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Elder Worthlin.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:24] No, no, My. My dad's.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:26] My dad's dad.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:28] So that was. That was the puller extremes we had. We had an apostle on one end and then we had a grandpa that had a son that none of us knew about on the other end. And so I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] So like a troubled. Kind of a troubled family.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:49] Yeah, it was. It was. It was a family with a lot of baggage on that end.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:54] And so it was. I wouldn't say they were bad people at all, but there was just a lot more drama on that end of the family.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:04] And so it was. It was something that was always there, but there wasn't much that was talked about about that family.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] So what was your dad's profession? And did your mom have a profession other than also stay at home?

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:22] Mom. Yeah. So my dad was a low vision therapist. So when. And most people don't know what that is because it's a very small branch of. It's not a doctor, but it's a rehabilitation specialist. And when eye doctors can't help people that are legally blind, he goes in and helps them cope with the sight that they have or with. With getting around with what they don't have.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] It almost sounds like occupational therapy, but focused on vision.

Greg Gerritsen [00:20:04] Yes, That's. That's probably the best explanation. Okay. So he. He did that. He also would. To make ends meet. My mom worked. She worked. I remember when she was. When I was little, she worked at a gym. It was called Deseret Gym for people that are familiar with that. It used to be a church owned fitness center. And Then they sold that. But she worked there for a number of years in Ogden and then she worked for a dentist's office. Basically the rest of my growing up years working as, as a clerk there. Okay, so what was the how.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] What was the how was Mormonism manifested in your, let's just say your childhood years? How faithful was your dad? How faithful was your mom? What were the spiritual or religious influences? What were your Mormon practices growing up?

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:09] Oh, we were very orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] What did that mean?

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:12] We were very devout Mormons. Family home evening was a very forceful activity. Like we had to be there. It was every week. Every week.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Every Monday.

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:29] It was either Sunday or Monday, depending on what my dad's schedule was. But it was, I mean, my dad was pretty by the book and over the top in trying to check every box. So he believed we had to kneel down for family prayers, even at mealtime.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Oh, wow. So you're all there for family dinner on a Tuesday night and you're kneeling for family prayer.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:08] He would want us kneeling down and there's quite a few of us. As soon as he would kneel down, we would get up. So what do you mean? We weren't always, especially me, I don't like rules that I didn't see a point behind. So he would try to get us to do those things, but he couldn't always get us to do those things.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:39] So, I mean, he was very kind of. Let's check this box with reading the scriptures as a family, with doing all those things. So I would say if it was suggested by a leader in the church to do something, we did it. And so it was very, I would say we, we tried to appear as a perfect family, church wise.

Family Rules, Standards, and Orthodoxy

John Dehlin [00:23:13] What were some of the rules, like the standards that were most influential or emphasized in your family just to give even our non Mormon listeners a sense for the standards of your family. Oh, so I'll give you some things. So, so swearing.

Greg Gerritsen [00:23:32] Oh, yeah, it was, it happened, but it was not allowed. Yeah, so. And I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to paint my, my parents as villains or anything, but I mean, they would. And not so much my mom, I, my mom is a saint. Like, she, she has such a great heart. I only heard her swear a couple times in my life. And it was one of those. When she did it, you're like, whoa. We really pushed her over the edge. But my dad could use some language. And when he did it was, you know, you're in trouble, but you can't talk about it, you can't, you can't, you can't talk about how he, he did that. So. Because it was a, it was an unwritten rule that we don't swear, but you don't want to bring attention to it.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] So like, so like Sabbath observance.

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:39] Oh, Sabbath.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] What was that like?

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:40] It was very, the rules. It was very strict. Although.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] What were the rules?

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:45] The rules were you couldn't, you couldn't. Well, you had to be at church, you had to be early, which I was always awful at being to church early. And my kids will also say that I'm never early to church and so but that like you're at church and back then church was three hours a day. And I mean, growing up, my dad always had meetings. So, so he would be at church most of the day and we.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] Was he in leadership callings?

Greg Gerritsen [00:25:20] He was in leadership callings most of my growing up years.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] So like, was he bishop at some point or bishopric?

Greg Gerritsen [00:25:27] He was bishop when I was 16. He was bishop, but even younger. He was in the bishopric at younger ages and so he had various stake callings. He was in the stake presidency and after he was bishop. So I mean I, I had lots of, lots of times with him trying to interview me as bishop and I, I didn't like that. So. And, and I can save that story for later. But yeah, but yeah, there was.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] So he was gone a lot.

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:05] He was, he was gone a lot. He was on the stand a lot as a, when I was little. So I remember sitting on a row with six other kids and my mom and being at the youngest, a lot of my siblings by the time I was 10, one by one they all started moving away. So a lot of my growing up years when I have really good memories is with fewer and fewer siblings. And as my dad is bishop and he was gone a lot more and away from the home. So our Sabbath day rules changed with him being gone.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Were you saying they relaxed?

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:55] They relaxed not because he relaxed, but more. He was gone, he was gone. And I was able to get away with more things. So I, we, I'm a big sports fan. I played football and baseball and basketball occasionally, but we would, we would, we loved watching NFL football on Sundays. And that was, that was like our, our thing. We, I never missed a big game on a Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] And we'll learn that that's that your grandpa, Joseph B. Wirthlin played football for the U. So in that sense you, both, you and your grandpa shared a love for football.

Greg Gerritsen [00:27:36] Yes. Oh, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] But are you saying Your dad would not have been a fan of football. NFL football being watched on Sunday? Is that what you're saying?

Greg Gerritsen [00:27:43] It. It depended on the. The mood he was in there. There were days that he would like to watch the games, and then there were days that he said, we should turn this off, and it was hit or miss. But, man, I would have loved to have an iPad and ability to watch it on a tablet, because then I never would have missed a game.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] Any other thing you want to say about, like, family rules, strictness, family standards?

Greg Gerritsen [00:28:16] Yeah, I mean, it was just. We were expected to be Eagle Scouts. We were expected to by a certain age, not a certain age. I think I got it. You know, I was. I probably drug my heels the most out of all of my. My brothers getting it. If I didn't have. There was. There was a. An old neighbor that really mentored me, and he. He pretty much forced me to get my Eagle Scout. He'd come up and pick me up from my house. And he. His name is Don Brimhall. And I know. I know some of his family members.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Listen, Von Brody was a Brimhall.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:03] Yes, yes, yes. And I think there's a family connection there.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:08] And Don. Don was a World War II vet that. He loves scouting because of what taught people to be prepared, to be good military people. And so he wanted everybody to serve in the military and to get their Eagle Scout. So he basically made sure I got my Eagle Scout. So I got it around 14 or 15 years old.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] And you're saying that's late.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:40] That was late for my.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] So your brother's the earliest brother?

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:44] I think they were about 13, early 14. I was late compared to my brothers.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Only In Mormonism is 14 years old late as an age to get your Eagle Scout.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:58] And without Don, I would have not ever got it. And he had so many stories that just fascinated me. And he was not the typical Mormon either. He had. He had so many. So many cool things in his house. That was the typical Mormon did not have. So he. He really made a big impression on me. So.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] So you were saying standards, Eagle Scout.

Greg Gerritsen [00:30:29] Yeah. Sabbath observance, Eagle Scout. Sabbath was big scriptures. Seminary was mandatory. I didn't do the EFY thing, but most of my siblings did that. I kind of. I made a big scene about not going to that. And that's called especially for youth. Now they've.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] For the strength of youth.

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:02] Yeah, now they've made that program for the strength of youth. But I was never into that. And I think I was the silent, rebellious yeah. Person.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] So let me. Let me drill into something. So what I'm hearing you say is high standards in your family, high level of orthodoxy. And. And then I'm also hearing a high importance on appearance. That the family appear.

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Super righteous and orthodox and faithful. And then I'm also hearing that you, even as a child and as a teen were a bit. A bit of a dissenter, you know, not feeling totally good about all of this orthodoxy and all of this. Yeah, all this orthodoxy.

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] What was it like in your family culture regarding the awareness that grandpa was a Mormon apostle? And. And how did that affect your. Your family conversations and your family culture? And if you have stories about that. And I'm mostly talking about reputation.

Greg Gerritsen [00:32:10] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] And expectations. How did that play out in your family?

Greg Gerritsen [00:32:14] Oh, that was huge. Appearance was everything. And having to live up to that appearance was also. And I would say, I think that played a big role in my dad's psyche as well, because he grew up in a very different reality than what I did.

Greg Gerritsen [00:32:48] His youth was very rough. He. He had a broken family and he had a dad that he never knew if he could count on. And so his dad came back around and was a good grandpa and a good dad later on in life. But his growing up years, he didn't have that. And so when I was young, young, he wanted to have that appearance of perfection, especially with the expectations of being a son in law of an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:33] And so I think that shaped who he was and the kind of person that he was. So he tried so hard to have us to be perfect that he would be really forceful to us and he'd be getting upset with us when we're not perfect.

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:58] As anyone can expect with seven kids, you are not going to have perfection. Especially when we have to drive an hour in the car to go visit them.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] To visit who?

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:11] To visit family. Because we grew up in North. North Ogden, which is about an hour drive away from Salt Lake City. And all of our cousins, all of our fam. All of the extended family lived in the Salt Lake Valley and we were the only ones that lived away. And so are you saying there'd be

John Dehlin [00:34:34] regular family events where like the Wirthlands would all get together like on a Sunday?

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] And so your family would. Nine of you would get in the car, drive to like the Sunday Worthland family event with grandma and grandpa, and then your parents would want you all to be super well behaved for grandma and grandpa.

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:52] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] And that was the setup.

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:55] And. And yeah, so that's the setup. And Then as we get out of the car, my mom. No, not my mom, my dad had been yelling at us and, and there was a good chance he sprinkled in some swear words at us. And as soon as we get out of the car, he puts on a showing of perfection.

Greg Gerritsen [00:35:19] And to be fair for him, he's trying to live up to that expectation as well as he doesn't want to throw, he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to let people down. And so that was really apparent to us as kids is we were one way behind closed doors. But then we were expected in front of other people to have a side of perfection.

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:00] And it really bothered me from a young age and I think I really started to get extremely bothered by it in fifth grade. And I, I was acting out in fifth grade and I was just being a normal kid and I didn't realize how much the family name could.

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:29] The leeway it could have with certain people. I was out at recess, which is just a 20, 30 minute break during class where you can go play on the playground and do things in elementary school. And I had really broken some rules at recess and I knew I was going to be in trouble. And the teacher that caught me was a pretty orthodox Mormon, really devout Mormon, and she knew my family really well and she totally let me off the hook because of my granddad.

Greg Gerritsen [00:37:21] And I was kind of looking forward to getting into trouble because if I got into trouble, I was going to have to stay home from the next family activity. And I didn't want to go. So I was.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Why didn't you want to go?

Greg Gerritsen [00:37:37] I didn't want to go because I was just kind of tired of that side of perfection.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] The pressure.

Greg Gerritsen [00:37:43] Yeah. And just the show and it. So I was, I tried to act out in school to get away from a family get together and it totally backfired. She pulled me aside and she said at the time my grandpa was having a little bit of health problems.

Greg Gerritsen [00:38:11] And let's see, I was. That would have put me at about age 11. So he was in his late 70s at the time and he was just having just a little bit of health issues. And she, she had heard about his health issues from my mom and she said, I, and I'll always remember this, she said, look, I know you were doing something that you shouldn't be doing, but don't worry, I won't tell your mom. And I loved your granddad's talk last conference, so just go back to class. And I was so disappointed. It was the first time that I was ever upset that my granddad was an apostle because my plan had backfired because of her love for him. And that's when I realized how much people look at the leaders of the church.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Yeah, interesting. Interesting, because you would think that maybe if you had. You were part of a family that had privilege, you would just be excited for all the ways you could get out of trouble and do whatever you wanted or get privilege. But I imagine if you have a certain personality or a certain conscience, you would know that there's something wrong about that privilege, you know?

Greg Gerritsen [00:39:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] Harmful or disturbing.

Greg Gerritsen [00:39:49] Well, and every. Everyone is wired a different way. And I don't know, I don't want to try to cast myself as a good person or as one way or another, but it just affected me in a different way.

Greg Gerritsen [00:40:11] I didn't like attention for something that I didn't do or recognition for something that I didn't deserve recognition for. And so that's something that always bothered me. And I also was shaped by what I saw and what I experienced. I saw how my parents handled it. I saw how other family members handled it. And also I was watching how my granddad handled the pressure and the limelight, and I was trying to handle how people would come up to me in my own way. And, you know, there was no handbook for how to do it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:10] And so you just. You just kind of learn to deal with it as it comes. And there was interactions. A lot of kids, parents would ask me questions or ask me to ask questions to my granddad, Give some examples.

Pressure and Expectations from Grandfather's Status

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:30] Like, I had. I had a church leader ask. Ask me if I could ask my. My granddad about whether he's seen Jesus or not. And that was something that. That was probably the most common question that I would get from people.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:55] And as a kid, I just. I knew that that was not appropriate to ask my granddad, so I never asked it. But I would just tell the. I would just tell people. I'll ask it when you. When you are willing to not ask me any questions about my granddad. Because. Because I just. I don't know. I did. I didn't know how to respond to a question like that.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] I mean, that's really interesting because so much of their power at, you know, Mormon apostles, right. So much of their power is the general perception that they are special witnesses of Christ, because that's what we're told they are.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:39] Right?

John Dehlin [00:42:40] And if you're a special witness of Christ, you know, you could nuance that phrase, but to an average Mormon, it means that you've had your second anointing or the second comforter. It means that you have seen Christ. And there's lots of scriptures that talk about that's your goal in life, is to actually have the second comforter or see Christ. And so like, you know, it's, it's kind of fair that Mormons are really thinking about that and asking about it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:10] Oh, right.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] Because that's where they derive so much of their power and their prestige. And so on the one hand, I think it's just totally fair. On the other hand, I can see why it would be super annoying, but I'm fascinated by the fact that, that you just understood, without it ever being said, that it was completely taboo to even ask him. Because I think that's probably the most fair question to ask him on some level. And yet, you know, to never ask that.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:39] Yeah, you.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Sorry, you knew, you knew to never ask what probably is the most important question you could ask.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:46] Right. And as, I mean, I remember as a 12 year old being asked that and I remember looking at the guy just thinking, I am not going to ask him that, especially for someone that I have no positive relationship with. And so it is a fair question and something that I just, at the time I just thought, well, it's crazy. Of course he has.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] So your conclusion was that he had.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:22] Yo. Yeah, I mean, I had.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Because that's a big deal to talk to Jesus. Right, Right. If he really had talked to Jesus, that would be a huge. Because it means God lives. It means that Jesus is the Christ and is resurrected.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] And it means that this is God's one true church and that he's literally an apostle. Like that's almost everything. That's everything.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:44] And my parents were so orthodox and through, through all the family lessons that we had that was just inferred to us. Like you just knew that that's what, that's what kind of witness he was.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] And so, so that was just understood in your family that grandpa had seen Jesus.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:09] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] And talked to Jesus.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:13] Yeah. And that's again, my brothers, my sisters, they may say something separate, but that's what my impression was.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] Yeah. And that was my impression growing up

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:26] that apostles talked to Jesus and me as well. So a question like that from a leader that I barely knew and that his only interaction with me was yelling at us at scout camp. I wasn't going to ask my granddad for the.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:48] For someone like that. So.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Well, it kind of objectifies you instead of you just being your own person. Like I Get this with my kids. People come up to my kids, oh, your dad's John, blah, blah, blah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] They don't like that. They don't. It's not like they're running around going, hey, I'm John's son. It's like, how about you just love me for me?

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] How about you not ever mention my dad to me?

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] Because I just want to be me. I don't want to be my dad's.

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:11] Yeah. You know, I mean, you gotta. You gotta separate the person from the shadow.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:17] And I mean, there were so many experiences where you're just. You're just trying to be yourself and that. That shadow comes into play.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:34] And I mean, the. One of the. One of the most extreme examples of that was when I was in seminary, I. I had a teacher. And I mean, to this day he. And I don't. I'll see him in the community every now and again.

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:54] And I don't think he. He will ever like me as a person. But he. The very first day of class, he was calling Rol. And when he came to my name, he said, now I'm not judging you from who your sister is, because my sister was in his class a year or two before and she was in the seminary presidency. And he was over at the seminary presidency in the.

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:28] In the school. And he said, I'm not judging you because of your sister or because of who your granddad is, but I expect more out of you. And I just kind of laughed and I was like, expect more? What do you mean?

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:44] And he just got really upset that I would say that. And so we started off on the wrong foot. And within two or three days of class, he had kicked me out of his class.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Whoa.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:00] And he pulled me into his office and said, I'm going to call your mom. And I said, great. I said, go ahead and do it. I mean, he kicked it. The final straw that he did the very first part of class, he would have this five minute scripture study where you're supposed to read the scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] What class is this again?

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:27] This was seminary.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] So he's a CES instructor.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Church employee.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:31] Church employee, yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:33] Yep. And because we're in.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] So a CES instructor kicks an apostle's grandson out of seminary. That's.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:41] Oh, yeah, that's kind of bold. Oh, and the story gets better. So he, like, I'm just sitting in the class and he had put me right in the front center desk of the class. And my friend was sitting right next, right behind me, and I had A little water bottle. And I was taking a drink of water, and my friend just taps me on my head as I'm. As I have it tilted back and taking a drink. And so when he taps me on the head, the drink spills all over. I've got water running down my chest and everybody in the class is laughing. And he kicks me out of class for that. And my friend sitting right behind me was like, well, it was me that did it. And he didn't even get in trouble. I got in trouble.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Oh, and so that's the opposite of your story in elementary school.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:53] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] You're getting in trouble because you're the apostles grandson.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:56] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] That's different.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:59] Yeah, it was really different. And so he sends me out into the hall and I was like, well, if I'm gonna get in, if I got in trouble for doing nothing, I better have fun with this.

John Dehlin [00:50:09] Better earn it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:50:10] So he said, I'll be out in the hall in two minutes. And so the hall had carpet walls. And I kind of put my arms on one end of the wall and my feet on the other and I climbed up above the door.

Greg Gerritsen [00:50:33] And when he came out of the class to come yell at me, I was hiding above the door. And he looked down both sides of the hall and he couldn't see me. And then I just dropped right in front of him and scared him.

Greg Gerritsen [00:50:55] And his blood pressure just went through the roof. And he just went. He just went crazy on me and was yelling at me and telling me that that is not how the grandson of an apostle should act and that he wanted to bring my mom in and have me expelled from seminary.

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:17] And I was excited about that. I was like, wait, I don't have to go. So he called. He called my mom. And my mom was actually off work that day, and she came in and she had a meeting with the seminary president. And that teacher.

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:41] And the seminary president was just so apologetic to my mom. But my mom laid into that seminary teacher because he crossed the line with her. And I had never heard my mom yell at someone, another adult. And he brought up. He brought up my grandad's name to my mom and said that he was disappointed in Elder Worthland because of my behavior.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Disappointed in Elder Worthland?

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:11] Yeah. Yeah. He thought that my behavior was a reflection on him.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Oh my gosh.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:19] And so this guy's out of line. He was very out of line. And my mom put him back in line. And I was put in the class of my choosing after that. And the seminary president, who's now, my neighbor still laughs at that interaction.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] Like this guy's boss or.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:45] Yeah, okay. Yeah. Cause he.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] He.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:48] He's a good friend of mine, and

John Dehlin [00:52:49] he's not the teacher, but.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:50] No, no, not the teacher. The teacher, to this day, does not like me.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] He probably. That probably wasn't good for his career.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:58] You know, I have no idea what happened. He's. He's now in a different career. But. But needless to say, he and I don't have very good friends. Feelings towards each other still. So. But that, like, to me, that was. That was an example of kind of how people held these guys up to such a high level that sometimes they had the same expectations for their families. And, I mean, I remember being in another seminary class, and they were talking about Sabbath day worship, and they talked about how this teacher was taking it so literally that he said, on the Sabbath, you cannot watch tv. And I just kind of laughed because just. I think it was the week prior was general conference, and it was in October, and there was. My favorite team was the 49ers.

John Dehlin [00:54:14] Steve Young.

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:14] Yep. Steve Young. And Joe Montana. Yeah. Before Steve Young, it was like, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana. Yeah. John Taylor, all of those players. My favorite player was Tom Rathman, and I just love that team. Well, so they were playing, and it was right after conference, and it was. It was perfect because it was like. It was. I think it might have been the Cowboys and the 49ers. It was a big game. But we were all at my granddad's house after conference watching it with him.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] So Joseph B. Wirthlin watched NFL football on Sunday?

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:59] Oh, yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] That's awesome.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:01] He was a big football fan. And so we're all watching football at his house. And then there's all these Mormons that

John Dehlin [00:55:11] think it's evil to watch sports on Sunday.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:13] Yeah. A week later, a seminary teacher is telling me that I can't. And I was laughing because I was like, whatever, you can't be serious. And so I just said, well, that's funny. I just watched a football game with my granddad last week.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] On Sunday.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:36] On Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] Well, that must have been embarrassing for him.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:42] Oh, that was a touchy experience because he did not like. He did not like how that lesson turned out. So, I mean, I. I learned. I learned that there's. There's a time and place to share those things, and that probably was not the right. Or.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] It was the right time.

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:06] Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of people in my class like that.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:10] But.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] But it's not part of the code. Right, right.

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:12] It's not, it's definitely not part of the code. And especially that wasn't like the seminary teacher felt embarrassed. And I probably shouldn't have embarrassed him like that. I should have probably handled it differently. But as a 16, 17 year old kid, you're not going to do everything perfect.

Memories of Grandpa Wirthlin and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Talk about memories that you have of time with your grandpa and grandma or observations you made of your grandpa and grandma prior to, let's just say your mission is there. Are there any stories good, good or hard or bad or anything in terms of like what you witnessed or what your relationship with them was like?

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:04] So my granddad and I shared the same birthday. So June 11th was always his day that he made me feel like I was his only grandson.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] So he had how many grandkids?

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:20] He had over 40, I think 42. So.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] So that would be for a month. He would have had to, you know.

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:27] Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, his time and he traveled a lot, so there was a lot of times where, I mean, when I was really little, he was in Germany for an extended time. He was traveling to Hawaii a lot. Poor guy. But no, there was a lot of times where we only got a couple times a year in my early years. And July was, was his time off. That's typically when they get time at home.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] Apostles get a month off basically in July. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:15] Yeah. Okay. And it may have changed, I mean everything from 2008 forward. I have no idea how it's done now.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:24] But up until he passed away in 2008. Yeah, he. He passed away in December of 2008.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] So you know how it was before 2008 for an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:33] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] And he would get July's off.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:35] Yes. And.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] And for those who don't know, once you're called as an apostle, you join the quorum of the 12 and you're there for life. You're there until you die. And then it's a seniority system where you work your way up based on how long you've been an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] But you're there for life. Even if you're 90, 95, you're still an apostle and you still have all the expectations and responsibilities.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:00] Yeah, you just have to outlive each other to work your way up.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] But there's no like your golden years of being a full time grandpa that doesn't exist.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:12] No, no. So like most of my memories of him are going up to his cabin in Midway.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] He had a cabin in Midway.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:21] He had a cabin.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] Lots of apostles have cabins. In Midway. Hebrew.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:23] And. And this cabin in Midway is not a luxury cabin. Oh, it was. It was a piece of work. We. It was. It was old. It was pretty cheap, and it had mice in it.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] Oh, fun.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:44] So it was. It was a place that we didn't want to spend the night because it was so old, but it was something. It was tradition. We always went, like, 4th of July, July 24th.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Like, all the kids and grandkids beat up old cabin. Every.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Where would you stay?

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:09] Oh, we would just stay for, like, lunch. Okay, so it was like a day trip. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:15] Yes. Just a day trip. Some of the other cousins would. I mean, we would all just meet up there for a meal.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:24] But that was kind of thing. That was where he could be himself and he could. He could joke. It was. We would talk football. I mean, most of my cousins. The. Most of the guy cousins would play football. That was just kind of the family culture. Yes, family culture was football. And so it was. It was a football family. And it was. That was something that was talked about more than anything at those events.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Fun.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:05] So that was kind of what.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] So did. Did. Did your grandpa have a favorite NFL pro team? I know he. He played for the Utes.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:13] He played for the Utes. That was his team.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Was the offensive lineman.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:17] He was a running back. He. So he played quarterback in high school.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Where? At East.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:22] At East High.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:23] And then he was a scholarship athlete back in the. I think it was the late 20s, early 30s. But then he went on a mission to Germany and Switzerland, which is where the Wirthlin family is from. And he was there as Hitler was taking over most of Europe.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] He was on a mission in Germany in the late 30s while.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:56] Oh, well, the early 30s.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] In the early. Yeah, early 30s. Okay, got it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:00] Early 30s while Germany was being taken over by.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:04] The Nazis. So.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:06] Yeah. So he. He was.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Rise of the Third Reich, basically.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:11] Yeah. So he. He spent most of his time in Switzerland, which was very fortunate because it was. It was a really rough time then. But so when he came back, he played. He played football for Utah and he played running back. And was he good? Yeah, I mean, I never watched him, but, you know, so. No, he. I. I did. I did look up a lot of his stuff from when he was playing, and. And I think I saw. I saw one clip of when he played, and it was pretty cool to see that.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] Oh, they have, like, a video clip of him running.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:56] It was like a montage of all the football articles and. Oh, so okay, so clips and stuff. Yeah, so it was. It was pretty cool. And one. There was one Utah game that we went to where they had some highlights. Not highlights, but some people that played with him and they did.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Alumni.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:30] Yeah. A recognition for him. When I was on my mission. They actually retired his jersey, but they still use his number.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:41] He was number four for Utah, so it was. It was pretty cool to. To learn about his playing days.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] So I have to ask, what did he think of byu?

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:54] He. He was not a fan of BYU football. He was. He was a Utah guy. He. I mean, he would go to. He would go to BYU football games because that's, That's. That's where. Where the, the church's focus was on. But he was a fan of football, but not a fan of BYU football. So he. When it was, when it was byu, Utah football, you knew where his allegiance was. He was. He was decked out in Utah football gear.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] So.

Greg Gerritsen [01:04:35] And. And like, a lot of the apostles go to the BYU football games, and it's more of a social setting for. For them.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Isn't there probably some luxury box that they're all sitting at? Did you ever go with him to those games?

Greg Gerritsen [01:04:50] I did once, and it was, it was. It was entertaining in the fact that he was there to watch the game. Like, he loved watching football more than anything. That was his release, and so he wanted to watch the game. He didn't care who was there. He was there to watch football, not to socialize. And a lot of people were there to socialize and to rub shoulders with each other. And that's not why he went there. He was going to watch a football game, and that was like, the game is what was the attraction for him.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] Yeah. So I think I remember you telling me an email some stories about other apostles that you bumped into during some of those games. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:47] Yeah. And. And, and like, at halftime when. When you get snacks or whatever, they're. They're. They're there and they're kind of not paying attention to the game. And so it was very entertaining to see. Like, I loved the fact that he was a football fan because I was a football fan. And, like, I really didn't care who was there. I was excited that I was there with my, like, with my grandpa and. Because I didn't have many, many experiences with just him and me.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] You didn't?

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:34] No, I did not.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] In your life.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:36] I can. I can count probably on both hands how many times it was just he and I. Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] So that's, I mean, and that's got to be number one because he had so many grandkids. But number two, because they keep those dudes so busy. Right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:52] Yeah, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] I don't mean to tell you that that's just my impression.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:56] No, that's, that's entirely true. My 11th birthday, he. He pulled me aside and we had a one on one moment and that was, that was pretty much the first one on one time that I had with him.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] Do you remember what he said?

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:22] Yeah, well, he, it was on our birthday and it was at my cousin's wedding and he said he had been gone for a long time. And he said, I've been thinking about you a lot and I just want you to know that I really, I really appreciate you. And he gave me a birthday present and he said, now your, your grandma has a birthday present for you as well, but don't tell her that I gave you one. And that was, that was the first time that I had a one on one.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] What'd he give you?

Greg Gerritsen [01:08:07] Like, he gave me an extra $50 and. Which was more than, like, that was more than my siblings ever got. And so it really made me feel really special because I knew how busy he was. He had a lot going on and he had a chair when we visit him in his house that he would sit in and a lot of times when he was talking, he would start falling asleep because he was, he'd work so long of hours. So there was that time and then when I was, I think when I was. The next time when I was ordained to the priesthood when I was 12, he. He spent some one on one time with me and then not again Till I was 18 and I was a student at Westminster College six years later. Yeah, I mean, I had interactions with him in that time frame, but it wasn't just me and him.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Yeah. Like I just, there's the, there's a perception among many that they live, you know, for those who are kind of like not comfortable with the royalty asp of being an apostle, there are many that would want to emphasize the privilege and you know, the income or the fame or the glory. But, but I talked to you about this kind of before the show. There's probably a lot of sacrifice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:09:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:48] And a lot of, you know, the fact that he's going to do this until he dies is going to be able to be a normal grandpa and may not enjoy the limelight. There's probably a lot of downsides to being an apostle, especially maybe for your grandpa's particular personality. Do you Want to talk about that a little bit?

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:05] Yeah. I mean, he loved. He loved family. He was a very devout family guy, but his position didn't allow him to spend the time with us that he wanted to. He would have loved to make it to all of our football games, but it just wasn't a reality that he could do that. And, I mean, I think he made it to two of my games, and that's the first time I ever saw him with a tear in his eye was that he genuinely was sad that he could not be there. And that was, I think, really devastating to him that he couldn't be with us as family as much as he would have liked to.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] What was your position?

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:07] So I played quarterback. I played kind of every position in high school.

John Dehlin [01:11:15] You were kind of utility player?

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:16] I was a utility player.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] Which high school?

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:19] A Weber High school. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] So you were you viewed as like a good athlete, a strong athlete?

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:26] I was. I would say I was a serviceable athlete. Like, I, I played. I. I didn't play varsity quarterback. I played varsity wide receiver and cornerback and special teams.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] Does that mean you were probably fast? You were pretty fast.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:42] Yeah, so I was. I got faster as I got older, and I was able to keep up with people, but I was never the fastest.

John Dehlin [01:11:55] Yeah, but you're pretty athletic.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] And multipurpose.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:58] So I was. Okay. Okay. So my granddad always loved talking with me about the positions I played. Cause he played quarterback in high school, and when I was. I was. I played quarterback as a sophomore and junior in high school, and he loved that. And some of our. Some of my favorite conversations with him was about football because it just. It brought a smile to his face and it. It really brought him down to my level.

Greg Gerritsen [01:12:37] And I'm not saying that I wanted him down on my level. He brought himself to my level, and he made sure that he and I had a connection. So he was a really good grandad in that way. He really wanted us to know that he cared about us.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:01] And my grandma as well, she was able to come to a lot more than my granddad, so I had a lot more interactions with her because there was a lot of times when he would travel alone to things, and so I had plenty of interactions with her.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:24] And she was just. She was just an amazing person. I mean, she played tennis till the day she died, and it was like she was. We thought she was going to live till she was 120. Just how healthy she was.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] She was an athlete, too.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:41] Yeah, she was. She played tennis and she. She Just went a million miles an hour and was just. She was just an amazing woman and someone that I just like she was just on such a high pedestal that you never wanted to disappoint her. And I mean, she and my granddad were the reasons why I didn't. I wasn't a downright rebellious person is because of the relationship I had with them.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] You loved them.

Greg Gerritsen [01:14:15] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] And wanted to.

Greg Gerritsen [01:14:16] Oh yeah. I did not want to disappoint them at all. But like there were, there were times when I definitely. The rebellious side of me definitely came out.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] So let me ask you. I. I have this. So there's kind of pre conference center, General conference, where there's the Tabernacle.

Greg Gerritsen [01:14:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:40] Which was smaller and really old school. Really pioneer but.

Greg Gerritsen [01:14:45] But Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] Beautiful and powerful. And I remember attending general conference or listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir while conference was still held in the tabernacle. And then there's kind of post tabernacle kind of conference center era of Mormonism with this massive, mega, mega conference center that seats 15,000. But I know enough. I worked at church headquarters for a year, so I know enough about like the administration building and that the general authorities have their special cafeteria and that during general conference the families of the apostles would oftentimes come to general conference. And I imagine during the breaks, all of you going to some special place and eating the special catered food and like having special access at general conference, kind of behind the scenes as if you're royalty now. That's all in my head.

Greg Gerritsen [01:15:41] Yeah, it was.

General Conference and Perks of Apostolic Family

John Dehlin [01:15:42] Was there anything to that? What? Did you ever attend general conference pre or post conference center while your dad was an apostle? Because this is, this is the most, this is the most royalty like aspect of Mormonism is like twice a year the whole world is watching general conference. Each of the apostles will give a talk. It's a two day thing. And like all of the Mormon world is watching and it's the big show. And I'm just wondering what it's like to be the grandchild of an apostle during the big show. Or maybe I'm making all that up and there's nothing to it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:18] Yeah. So pre conference center. It was a chaotic time on Temple Square at the tabernacle. I mean that was especially as a young, like we. I couldn't even as, as an apostle's grandkid, you couldn't go in unless you were eight. Okay. So even when he, he was speaking, if, if we. If you weren't eight and you didn't have a Ticket you could not get in.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:56] And with a family as big as his, we weren't all allowed to go down to that special. Event stuff. So general conference was still just kind of a chaotic, like, every. Every family for themselves type event. What? The session that he spoke, our family got more tickets to that session. But at the tabernacle, it was very limited. And so there was a limited amount of tickets that the family got. And so it was generally one or two siblings would go in, or a parent would go into the sessions, and we'd all be out of the tabernacle. Waiting for the session to end. And so a lot of general conference, I remember walking around the temple square in the throngs of people, just wondering why we were there when we could have been at home on our couch.

John Dehlin [01:18:20] So you weren't, like, during the breaks, having pie in the special cafeteria with your apostle grandparents?

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:27] No, definitely not.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] Oh, wow. Okay. That's different than I imagined.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:31] So that once the conference center was opened up, a few of our uncles and aunts were able to go do that, but with a family as big as ours was, especially the extended family, they can't have 50. 50 people of. And with once. Once you started having cousins marry and have their own kids, then it was just way too many. And so you can't invite one and not invite all. So only a couple people were invited. And I think it was just my aunts and uncles only.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:17] So.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] Okay. So not what I thought.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:19] Yeah. So we were. We were never allowed backstage.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:25] Per se. So.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] So were there perks to being the grandchild of a mortal apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:30] So you got.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] And I don't mean just general conference. I just generally, like, you hear about access to rental cars or, like, tuition breaks at byu, which is funny in your. In your case, but, like.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:43] So what are the perks of being the grandchild of a Mormon apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:46] So.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Or are there any.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:48] To be honest with you, I didn't see many perks, really. So we had no special rental cars? No. Nothing like that? We.

John Dehlin [01:19:58] No flights on corporate jets?

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:00] Oh, no, no. The only time I've been on corporate jets is for my career.

John Dehlin [01:20:05] Oh. Cause you're a pilot?

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:06] Yeah. Cause I'm a pilot. But no, we heard about him going on the Huntsman jet. The Huntsman jet.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] That's a thing, right? The Huntsman jet is a thing.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:19] He went to China with President Hinckley back in. I think it was 1997 or something. And we heard about that, and we were all amazed that he got to do that. But no, like we, the, the only perks that we got were tickets to events at the tabernacle and the, and the conference center.

John Dehlin [01:20:46] So like if David Archillette is singing or Christina Chenoweth or whatever.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:51] I mean, James Taylor, you could.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:53] So yeah. And when I went to Westminster College, my grandma would give us tickets to things like that. And one time my mom sent my little brother down to go to one of those events during the Olympics with me. And instead of going to that, I had gotten tickets to the medals ceremony.

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:18] And so we told my mom that we were going to the conference center when we went to the medals ceremony and we saw the Goo Goo Dolls in concert instead. And to this day my mom still doesn't know that we ditched that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:32] So. But that like really tickets to things to church events was the real perk. And other than that, like, I don't, I mean, BYU football tickets, that was one perk that you got occasionally. But most, most of my family were, most of my extended family were ute fans anyways, so that wasn't, that wasn't much of a perk to most of most of the extended family.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Okay. Yeah. Because I think I mentioned the perception of royalty.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:14] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] And so you wonder, what about tuition breaks?

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:18] Do you know, did you ever hear about that? I never heard about that. And maybe that's because I made it very clear to my parents that I was not going to go to byu. So if there was a perk, I was not made known of what that was. And it was never, that was never something that was offered or publicly talked about. So I, I was never under the impression that there was a perk there.

John Dehlin [01:22:50] Okay, nice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:52] My sister was the only sibling that I had that went there and she was on a full ride scholarship for academics.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:01] So I don't know if she had any kind of perk or not, but I'd be surprised if there was.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] This is a totally random question that I'm asking on the spot, but Richard Wirthlin was a super famous pollster who was really instrumental in the success of Ronald Reagan in the Republican administration in the 80s.

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] That's your uncle, right? That's your grandfather's brother?

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:25] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:26] Do you know about him and do you know anything about his influence?

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:31] Well, so every, every Christmas time we would have a get together at his house and he was, he was the wealthy uncle. So that's, I mean he threw great parties. And that's what it was, a Worthland Post Christmas party where we usually watched the Holiday bowl because that's usually what day was on.

John Dehlin [01:23:57] He was into football, too.

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:59] Everybody was. Worthland's in football was almost as synonymous with Worthland and the church. It was like, I don't know which one was more important, but the lines were blurred quite a bit. So it didn't matter who was playing. We watched football, so that was just what we did together. It didn't matter what was going on. That would always break the ice. And that's when. When we would have great conversations with. And it was. We were a normal family when we were watching football. So I think that's the escape from the pressures of the calling. And that brought out the human factor, which I think was really healthy for the family to see. He's still a grandpa, and he's still just. He still has his likes and dislikes, and he's human. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] Yeah. So, okay, so Richard Wurthlin, super powerful, wealthy guy.

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] And.

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:18] And. And with the family as big as we had, I really didn't get to know him that well.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Sure.

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:26] And I tell my later years, a few years ago, I worked with a second cousin of mine, and, like, we barely knew each other.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:43] So, yeah, we didn't. We didn't get to know them that well.

John Dehlin [01:25:47] Sure. Let's talk about your testimony. In high school, did you. Did you always have a testimony? Did you ever question your testimony? Did you try to develop a testimony what was going on spiritually inside of you in your high school years? I don't want to jump over any other stories you want to tell, but, like, you know, I definitely want to ask about that.

Personal Spirituality and Youth Bishop Interviews

Greg Gerritsen [01:26:11] Let's see. I would say I was probably pretty average kid. Like, I. I wouldn't say I was very spiritual. I would say I was just going through the motions. There were times I'd say the most spiritual moment I had was I had been playing football and I had a pretty bad concussion. It was a concussion that was keeping me out for close to three weeks. And I mean, at that point, we didn't have the concussion protocol that we had now, but I couldn't even stand being in a room with a light on.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Oh, wow.

Greg Gerritsen [01:27:01] And so I had pled with everyone to do something, and my granddad offered to give me a blessing. And, like, that was the only time that I've ever had a priesthood blessing that's actually felt like it's done something. And for me, that was. That was a sign.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] What happened?

Greg Gerritsen [01:27:28] I just.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] So what were you. Is it headaches? Was it just.

Greg Gerritsen [01:27:31] I had bad headaches. I had. I was Very sensitive to light. And like, that was. That was a time where I felt like he had special power because I had. I wouldn't say miraculous healing, but I had an improvement in symptoms the next day. I was starting to improve.

Greg Gerritsen [01:27:58] And I don't know at the time, I marked it off as he was the reason why I. I had improvement. So that was the basis of my spirituality, is basically that healing. That healing. Because before then, I didn't take much of it serious to say.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:24] I mean, I was always in like deacons, quorum presidents, teachers assist teachers, quorum presidencies. I was never the president. At least I don't remember being that. If I was. I didn't really take it serious. I didn't. I was.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:45] I went home teaching with my dad, but I was never excited to go. I was never. I was never the gung ho Mormon boy.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:57] So.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] But that was bolstering to your testimony to have that blessing from your grandpa.

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:03] Yeah. Yeah. I did think that there was something to it.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:07] So that was. And I always. He would bear his testimony to us as a family from time to time. And it wasn't. It usually wasn't something that was a normal occasion. It was a special occasion when he did that. And it was usually a very heartfelt testimony and it was always focused on Jesus Christ. So you always felt like he had a special testimony of that. So I always just took him for his word and I felt like he was genuine and that he knew that. So I believe that. So that that's where the basis of my testimony was. I wouldn't say I read the Book of Mormon through till I was on my mission. I just kind of took his word for it. And I knew that the decision for me to go on a mission was made before. I didn't feel like it was a choice. Mm.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] So really quickly, you had mentioned your dad being your bishop in your teen years.

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] And we always talk about kind of like guilt and shame and even law of chastity kind of stuff and how sometimes integral that is to the development of a Mormon of Mormon commitment. The shame and the guilt, but then repentance and the bishop. And is there anything you want to share about kind of pre mission, that sort of stuff?

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:46] And bring. Bring your dad in if you want to.

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Or not.

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:49] So like in my dad. Well, first of all, my mom and dad, like, parenting wise, they were afraid to talk about anything. Law of chastity wise.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] So sex related?

Greg Gerritsen [01:31:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:31:04] No talk about sex.

Greg Gerritsen [01:31:05] There was no talks about that like that Was. That was off the table. And so then for my dad, when he became bishop, to want to interview me about those things as a kid, I'm like, if you don't want to tell me about that beforehand, why am I going to want to tell you about what I'm doing in that arena? So I avoided bishop interviews with him, and I would just sneak out of church and I would go home rather than talk to him. And so he never once got to have a real interview with me, because when he would start, when he would get me in the bishop's office, I would just say, all right, Dad, I gotta go, because I did not want to have that. And I didn't want him to ask

John Dehlin [01:32:04] you about, like, porn and masturbation. And that. Was that the main fear? Were there other fears?

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:09] He didn't want to ask me about what I did with girls.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] Oh, okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:13] He didn't want to ask me about any. Well, he wanted to. He wanted to ask me about those things, but he didn't want specifics. And so it was so awkward that I just got out of there because

John Dehlin [01:32:26] I was like, we're not having this conversation.

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:29] Yeah, that's exactly what I said. And I was like, I'll have another bishop when I'm 18. And then when I was 18, he was still a bishop in my home ward, and I went to. When I was at Westminster, my bishop at Westminster was a pretty. I wouldn't say he was a liberal guy, but as far as the rules, he was very liberal with the rules. And he asked me why I wasn't doing more.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] More what? Doing more what?

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:06] Doing more. As far as law of chastity, like, with. With girls. He's like. He's like, go ahead, experiment. Experiment. Exactly. Yeah. He was. He was a very. I don't think the church would appreciate what he was saying. So it was. It was actually really refreshing because he. He made me feel like, you're golden. And so he just wanted people in the church as a bishop.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] That's good.

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:42] Yeah. And he actually knew my granddad, and they were friends, and he didn't realize that I was his grandson until I was working at my granddad's house.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] And.

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:55] And he drove by and asked what I was doing there, and I was like, oh, I'm just working out my. I'm just doing yard work for my grandparents. And he's like, oh, this is your grandparent.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] Oh, nice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:07] So. So then it was like, two weeks later, I was called into the elders quorum presidency.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Is that how it works?

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Is there a connection between church callings and people's knowledge of your family connection?

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:21] I've always wondered that.

John Dehlin [01:34:23] Well, what do you think?

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:27] I would like to say no, but I would probably be in error because, like, my experience is you always are told that you're going to have a calling once people know that, and they always expect you to have higher callings once they. Once they find out that you're related to an apostle. And then they're disappointed when they find out that you're. Oh, you're just a nursery leader. I'm like, just a nursery. I was like, yeah. So that. My experience is that callings are definitely associated to relations.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] Okay. And that. That would make sense. Okay. So did you experience guilt and shame as a teen? You know, stuff you didn't want to talk to your dad about, or were you just not really hung up on that sort of thing?

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:34] I. I definitely. I definitely had relationships with girls to spite my dad because he.

John Dehlin [01:35:44] He'd make out or whatever.

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:46] Yeah. I mean. I mean, I never. I never had sex with girls growing up, but I would definitely. I would definitely kiss girls to spite my dad because he was really against it.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] He didn't want you kissing girls.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:06] Right? He didn't want us kissing girls. He didn't like. He wanted us to. He wanted us to not date. Seriously. Have steady dating.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] And that's. I don't know, maybe that's a Utah thing. I. Growing up as a Mormon kid, I was. My parents didn't care if I dated. So that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:24] I think it's.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] That feels on the extreme side of things.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:26] Oh, yeah. He was on. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's a case by case basis on. I mean, because I had friends that they had no rules. Other friends had. Had soft rules like it. And my dad, he was over the top on that, but.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] So for you, kissing a girl was an act of rebellion?

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:48] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] Okay, so you did it anyway.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:52] Yeah. Okay. It was. And it was. I mean, there was one time he had some friends, friends from Pennsylvania over, and this was a close friend of his. And dad, if you ever listen to this, this will probably make you really mad. But his friend had two twin daughters and they were kind of rebellious and I was rebellious at the time, so I kissed both of them in our backyard while they were inside meeting at the same.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Like on the same day.

Greg Gerritsen [01:37:35] On the same day. And just to. Just to spite my dad, I knew that that would upset him more than anything. So that's what I did. And they were funny girls. They were they were really cool. And it was actually their idea, Their idea because my dad made an awkward comment to them about not kissing me. And so that's how socially awkward that conversation is, that topic was to him because I think it, it had roots in his, his past growing up with, with his dad. That, that was a concern of his for his kids. And so that was just like, it was, it was such a taboo subject that it was ridiculous to me. And so that was a rebellious side of mine.

Dating, Rebellion, and Identity as a Teen

John Dehlin [01:38:51] I mean, that's a theme that would be really fun to explore. I remember dating Mary Holland, Jeffrey Holland's daughter, while I was at byu. Yeah. And she would, she joked to me about how her dad, I think she told me her dad would watch sports on Sunday and how he would like Billy Joel. She liked Billy Joel. He liked Billy Joel. You got the sense that she wanted to let me know and others know that, like, we're not the Molly Mormon family.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:39:17] And we don't follow all the rules. But, but, but she never took it to make me feel like she was like a bad girl or rebellious. But in my mind, I've heard, I've heard stories about children of apostles that were rebellious.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] And I've always thought about that dynamic of there being so much pressure, so much expectation that it would often push the children and grandchildren of apostles in the other direction of what would be expected.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:48] Right. And there's definitely that. And everybody is unique in how they handle those pressures because there is the pressure of living up to that name and the expectations, like that seminary teacher, that he placed expectations on you before he even met. Before he even met me. And so those expectations, I was like, there's no way I'm going to live up to these.

John Dehlin [01:40:19] And

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:22] it's so unreal that I'm not even going to try to live up to those.

John Dehlin [01:40:28] Or maybe I'll even try and.

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] Undermine or, or sabotage.

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:34] Yeah. And, and some.

John Dehlin [01:40:36] To get out from under those types of expectations is that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:38] Yeah. And like some, some parents of, of kids that I was with, like, they, they would automatically cast judgment because of who my granddad was. And sometimes that was a great thing and sometimes that was a bad thing. Like, there were some girls that their parents wanted them to date me so much that because of who I was related to that, it became so awkward that I couldn't even have a conversation with them because of things they're parents said to me because I was like, I, I don't want to be around that. I don't want to have that Expectation on me.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] So parents wanting their kids to marry into an apostles family.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:35] Yeah, definitely. And. And then there was parents that.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] You didn't like that. No, because I would. That, you know, my, from my observation, man, if there were a ton of parents who, who were trying to get their kids to, you know, if they're cute girls and the parents are trying to get the cute girls to date me, like what's not to love about? That gives you more choice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:58] Yeah, to a degree. But then also the expectations, like if you're with my daughter, you better act this way and if you're not acting this way, then you're a failure.

John Dehlin [01:42:09] And then disappointment.

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:10] Yeah. So like was you, you lose no matter what what happens. And so you don't want to be loved.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] I guess you don't want to be loved for who your grandpa is. That's not love.

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:26] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] And then you don't want to live up to those standards or how could you ever possibly live up to those standards?

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] It's like again, it's the objectification of somebody.

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:37] Right, right. Exactly. And. And it's not allowing someone to be their self.

John Dehlin [01:42:42] Human. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:42] Themselves.

John Dehlin [01:42:43] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:43] And you have to, you have to allow a kid to be a kid.

John Dehlin [01:42:47] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:49] And anytime you have expectations for someone that they're not going to meet, you're going to be disappointed in that person. And I, I was really good at bringing out that disappointment in people. So I mean there were people that I got along great with that had expectations for me. But if you showed me that you expected something that I wasn't going to do, I was really good at making a comment to let that person know that you can't force me to be like that. And so I was really, I was really cautious with adults as I was a kid. If, if they, if they immediately went to my granddad's name and tried to connect with me through that, it. It threw up red flags for me.

John Dehlin [01:44:10] Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think it might be time to talk about your mission experience. Is there anything else you want to talk about? Your high school years prior to, Prior to your mission? Well, your faith development, your grandpa, you know, dynamics. Anything.

Greg Gerritsen [01:44:33] One of the, one of the key things. So before my mission I decided to go to Westminster College.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] Football scholarship or not?

Greg Gerritsen [01:44:42] No, it was. I.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] Why not? The U. Like that's almost seems blasphemous.

Greg Gerritsen [01:44:50] Well, so. And I chose Westminster because of the dynamics of Westminster. It was. It was a non LDS school and the, the ratio for LDS students to non LDS students was probably 1:1 LDS student for every 10, 10 students. And it was, it was a. I lived in a co ed dorm and my dad, it was exact opposite of what he would have chosen for me. And so it was my way to. To really say I can choose my own life.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] Oh, his independence. But like if you loved your grandpa and the U was like his baby.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:46] Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:46] It would have been like also departing from kind of.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:51] Because family heritage and your grandpa's passion.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:53] Yeah. But I also went to Westminster because of its aviation program.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:59] I knew I wanted to be a. Become a pilot.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] Got it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:01] And they had a. I was trying to choose college that had an aviation program, but that it also checked the boxes of not fitting into the LDS mold for my dad.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:16] Because at that point my dad was my bishop and he was super controlling spiritually. Like he wanted us to appear as a perfect LDS family. And so I chose that school specifically for those reasons. And I mean it was a financial, it's expensive burden for me to go there because I will. I was only on a partial scholarship and it was expensive for me and

John Dehlin [01:46:50] at least 20 grand a year, right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:52] Well, at the time it was $6,000

John Dehlin [01:46:54] a semester, so that's 12 grand a year tuition.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:58] And I. And then on top of that, I had flight school as well.

John Dehlin [01:47:03] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:04] Which was. I had no idea what I was getting into with that. And so I left that year and I was in a financial mess.

John Dehlin [01:47:12] So it wasn't like your parents were rich and they could pay for it all.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:15] Oh, no, no. I was, I was taking out loans and I was paying for. Oh, I was paying for it all myself.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] So this idea that like grandchildren of apostles are all wealthy, not.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:25] Oh, I would have love that to be true. My granddad, he was never a wealthy guy.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] So yeah, he was a. Like talk about his profession.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:37] He was a butcher. He owned a meat packing shop. It was called Worthland's Meats. And he.

John Dehlin [01:47:47] Where. Where was it?

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:47] It was just here in Salt Lake, I think. I don't know the exact address of it, but he didn't live far from his shop and my mom worked in the butcher shop when she was little. All of her siblings did. I know when my mom and dad got married, my dad delivered meat for the company and it was just a family run business and like the. They sold it. But I don't think they ever really made a lot of money with the sell of the company because we never had the toys. The extended family didn't have a lot of toys. Expensive cars, any of that it was every. Generally most of my aunts and uncles were pretty paycheck to paycheck people. There's a couple that did well financially, but most of them were, were, I'd say average middle class families.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Yeah. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:48:59] And so like me going to college, I knew that I was going to pay for it myself and I, I chose a very expensive college to spite my dad because of him being my bishop and kind of the pressure that he was putting on me to be that spiritual person that at the time I just wasn't that person. And so living in a co ed dorm and going to a school like that and I signed up for Bible study and I'll always remember that Methodist preacher that taught the Bible class. She was amazing. Yeah. And that's another thing. Like when I told my dad about that, he couldn't have been more shocked that that's what I was doing. I did have taking a Bible class

John Dehlin [01:50:04] from a woman Methodist preacher.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:06] Right. And they had an institute program at Westminster, but I was so busy I hardly went to that. But the Bible class, that had a huge effect on me because we studied the Bible and she did not interpret the Bible literally. And that really stuck with me because it was, it was a very like these are stories to learn from, not to take as, as factual.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] It's historical.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:46] Yeah. And that was like I had never, I had never thought about Bible stories like that. And so she made me think outside of the box. As far as Mormons go, did that

John Dehlin [01:51:00] make you question your testimony? And this is pre mission.

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:04] It was premission.

John Dehlin [01:51:05] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:05] And there was a lot of things that I was just coasting along as a, as a young Mormon. Like I never looked at a lot of things. So she, I think she knew what she was doing with exposing me to things and she did a great job. She made me think. And so I still was going to go on a mission, but when I went on my mission and I started learning more about the church, everything that she had taught me was coming into my mind because that was the first, that was the first time that I really paid attention in a, in a religious class was in her Bible study because she made it so exciting.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] So, so list. Maybe I had a similar experience not because of who my teacher was, but because I read the New Testament and I noticed some problems in high school. I'm curious, like three to five of the problems you would have learned about that would have challenged your Mormon orthodoxy or you know, can you remember? Yeah, well, so I can give you examples. But if you, you know.

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:23] Well, I mean, she talked about Jonah and the well, and she also talked about Moses.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] What about them?

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:34] What about the flood? Well, she. So Jonah, on the well, she. She said, now, how many people think this is an actual story? And, like, I was so shocked by the question that I was like, I better not raise my hand. So, I mean. And nobody raised their hand. And I was. I was in disbelief. I was like, oh. I was like, I gotta see where this is going. So.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] And then did she answer the question and say that from her perspective? What?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:08] Yeah, she said, this is just a myth with a lesson. And I had never thought about that. And I had always just been taught that Jonah and the well was a real life story. So, I mean, things like that.

John Dehlin [01:53:29] You're going to give another example?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:30] Oh, yeah. So Moses and Abraham and

John Dehlin [01:53:37] Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:38] Yeah, all of that.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] What about it?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:41] She just, she said, are these real people? And I. I had never thought about any of that.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Did she give evidence as to why they might not be real people?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:55] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] Yeah, she.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:57] She did.

John Dehlin [01:53:57] What was her evidence? Do you remember?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:58] Even I can't.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] What her evidence was.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:00] Like, I can't even remember. It was. It was such a foreign concept to me that I. I don't really remember the specifics. Yeah, I do remember her talking about David and, And David and Goliath. David and Goliath. And then how David had. How he sent off later when he was the king. How he sent off the. Oh, I can't remember the. The husband of.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] Yeah, Uriah. Like Yeshiba.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:36] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] They sent him off to war.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] He was killed because he wanted.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:44] He wanted Bathsheba. Right.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] Yeah. And I may. It may not be.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:48] Yeah, and she. She brought up that. And she brought up polygamy and she. I know she did that lesson specifically for me because I was the only LDS person in the class. And that got me thinking more than anything else because she. She said, now when is it okay to send someone off so you can marry someone else's wife?

John Dehlin [01:55:16] Send someone off to their death.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:18] Yeah. And she said, send someone off to their death or on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:55:24] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:25] And at that point, I had no idea what she was talking about.

John Dehlin [01:55:30] But there's some Joseph Smith references there.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:32] Right?

John Dehlin [01:55:33] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:33] And. And so she prepared me for a lot. And so, like, I don't remember her name. I don't remember. But I'll never forget her face. I'll never forget how kind she was to me and how she treated me and how she prepared me to learn all these Things.

John Dehlin [01:55:54] When you say kind to you, what do you.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:55] Oh, she. She would talk to me after class.

John Dehlin [01:55:58] Because you'd ask questions?

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:59] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:59] Were you concerned or curious?

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:01] I would. I. I appreciated how much she took an interest in me as a person. She. She was very genuine and she was interested in what I was going into and wanted. She wanted me to succeed in life. And so she was a great teacher and. And just a genuine person.

Pre-Mission Life and Meeting Church Leaders

John Dehlin [01:56:28] Do you. Ever since she knew who your grandpa was kind of thing or.

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:31] I. I would be surprised if she had any clue.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] So she just cared about you?

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:36] That must have been refreshing.

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:37] Oh, it was. It was so great because my. My experience in the. With the church was that as soon as people found out that I was a grandson of an apostle, I was treated differently. And so I really longed just to be a person.

John Dehlin [01:57:00] She treated you that way?

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:01] And she. She treated me that way. And so I naturally gravitated towards that. And so fast forward. So I had that experience in college. I had a great year of college. It was such a good experience for me as an individual. And it really made like I was really dreading going on the mission because I was enjoying aviation going into that as a. As a career. And I also loved the friends that I had made at Westminster.

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:45] And so. But I was looking forward to going on a mission and not having people know that I was the grandson of an apostle because it was a chance for me to control how much people knew about me because I would be on my own. I wouldn't have any family saying anything.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:09] I wouldn't have anyone that I knew there with me. So I was hopeful that not a single person would know and I could just be a normal member of the church. Yeah. So

John Dehlin [01:58:28] I'm wondering how that goes.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:29] Yeah. So I show up. Where'd you get called? I. I went to the England Manchester Mission.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:36] And I was excited because I wasn't going to go to the Provo MTC. I went straight to the Preston England MTC.

John Dehlin [01:58:45] What year?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:46] This was 2002 to 2004.

John Dehlin [01:58:49] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:50] And my mission was just full of stories.

John Dehlin [01:58:54] Did your. Did your granddad set you apart as a missionary or.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:57] He did, Yep.

John Dehlin [01:58:58] Was that special?

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:00] I mean, I was. I mean, we. So the night before I went to the mtc, I. We drove down and went to. Went to the church office building. He set me off. He set me apart as a missionary in his office.

John Dehlin [01:59:21] So that's fancy.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:22] Yeah. Church headquarters. That's. And I. I don't know. I did. I did not feel like I was ready to be a missionary, but who is.

John Dehlin [01:59:35] I have to ask you two things quickly, not to derail your story. Did you ever meet any prophets prior to going on your mission? And if so.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:43] Oh, yeah. So, I mean, we met all of them.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Oh, all of them.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:47] Yeah. I mean, so President Hinckley and my. My granddad are cousins, and through what?

John Dehlin [01:59:56] Bittner.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:56] So Bittner. So Gordon Bittner Hinckley and Joseph Bittner Wirthlin.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:02] And so the Bittner reunions, we would always get together, and there was always that. That interaction where you had President Hinckley and my granddad at the same place, at the same family reunion, and then, like, at various.

John Dehlin [02:00:24] So it's no accident that they're related in terms of possibly his. Your granddad's selection as an apostle. He's a. He's a cousin of. Of Gordon Meagley.

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:34] Yeah. So my granddad was called to be an apostle when Spencer W. Kimball died, and I have no idea what went into that, but, yeah, there's a lot of family connections throughout all of the church, so I know that. I don't know how. How interconnected that relationship is, but it's definitely there. I can't. I can't dismiss it.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] Was your grandpa an apostle before Russell M. Nelson was an apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:11] No, he was after.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Okay. And you're also another connection. Not only was your grandpa cousins with Gordon B. Hinckley, but your grandpa also served in a bishopric with Russell M. Nelson. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:23] That is correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:24] When. When would that have been?

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:26] Oh, probably the late 50s.

John Dehlin [02:01:29] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:30] Early 60s. Some. I. I don't know the exact dates, but my. My mom was a child on that when they were in the same bishopric.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] Okay, so. So your dad would have known at least Hinckley and Nelson personally very closely.

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:47] And the. I mean, Salt Lake was a lot smaller back then, too, so I know they knew quite a few of the apostles.

John Dehlin [02:02:03] Do you remember having any interactions with or impressions of the prophets you met growing up?

Greg Gerritsen [02:02:10] Yeah. I mean, President Hinckley was always trying to make people laugh and smile. There. There were the. The nice, quiet apostles, like Elder Hells.

John Dehlin [02:02:28] Robert Hales.

Greg Gerritsen [02:02:29] Yeah, he was. He was just such a genuinely nice person, and I was always. I was always interested in him because he was a pilot, and I knew that's what I wanted to be. So I was. I talked to him a few times, and he was always really, really nice to me.

Greg Gerritsen [02:02:51] So he was one of my favorite apostles. Just because he was so genuinely nice. My granddad always made President Monson Laugh. President Monson always would tell us how my granddad would sign his name as Jorge. And. Because I don't know where that joke came from, but he would always.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:21] My granddad always joked that he was as gringo as it could get because he had so much German in him because he spoke German and he served his mission in Germany and when he would get assigned to, to say Spanish names, he would always struggle with it. And so he would sign his name as H O R, H A Y,

John Dehlin [02:03:49] which is not how Jorge is spelled.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:51] Right. But that's, that's, that was the joke that he had with President Monson that he was just not a good Spanish speaker.

John Dehlin [02:04:00] Okay. And Monson thought that was super funny.

Greg Gerritsen [02:04:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:02] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:04:03] Yeah. So at my granddad's funeral, President Monson told me and a couple of my cousins that story. So he said he just. And President Monson's a pretty big guy. And he took us, he had us around our. He put his arm around our shoulders and pulled us in and was telling us that. And he, he just, I mean he was crying telling us about it.

John Dehlin [02:04:30] Really.

Greg Gerritsen [02:04:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:31] The. About the Jorge thing.

Greg Gerritsen [02:04:33] Yeah. Because he was just. He. He really liked my granddad.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [02:04:38] And I, I had no idea that they had. I mean, that showed me the different levels of relationships that they each had because there was other apostles that they really didn't have that warm, affectionate feelings for my granddad.

John Dehlin [02:04:58] Do you want to say who those would be or would you rather not say who those would be? I'm not trying to get you to.

Greg Gerritsen [02:05:02] I'll say there were two that didn't leave us with too good of feelings and one was Elder Packer present. Packer. He just. And I had a experience with my grand. When I was at Westminster with my granddad where I kind of saw a little bit of that relationship and that was, that kind of made sense at the funeral why I felt that way as well. And when I was, when I was at Westminster, I, I did a lot of yard work for my, my grandparents that year and that was, that was, that was the time that I really made up for not having a lot of one on one times with.

Observations of Grandfather in His Final Years

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:00] With them as I was able to spend. Spend at least once a week with them. And one night my grandma had me come in and have dinner with them and my granddad did not know that I was in the house and he started to tell my grandma about a meeting that the quorum of the 12 had.

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:29] And my granddad and President Packer had a disagreement on how a Policy should be laid out. And my granddad said, we need to look at the Savior and we need to treat people in that way. And he started to go into it, and then he walked in the room that I was in and he immediately stopped. And it's like. And then just started talking to me.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:07] But it was. It was the type of conversation that a spouse has with their spouse when they're frustrated with a colleague and they're really upset that a colleague would. Would treat people that way.

John Dehlin [02:07:26] Do you remember what policy and do you remember he did. If, if your grandpa was focusing on the Savior, do you remember what Packer would have been focusing on?

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:35] He didn't get into the specifics because he saw me. And I always wondered what it was because that. It was such a. It was such an interesting conversation that I could tell it was super confidential because he asked me how long I had been in the room. So. And I. I said, I've been in the whole conversation. He said, well, you can. You can chalk that up, too. I probably said too much.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] There's so much there. There's the fact that he's, number one, confiding in your grandma.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] That's, you know, that's powerful.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:22] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] Number two, that he's acknowledging severe, significant disagreements with another apostle. Like, we know that they're human.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:31] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:31] But. But it's evidence of that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:33] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] That, that. That your dad, your granddad was on the side of the Savior. Which makes me wonder what. What side Packer was on. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:40] And I have no idea.

John Dehlin [02:08:41] Yeah, of course.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:42] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:42] But then also that you don't, you know, that he didn't want you to. He. He didn't feel comfortable actually confiding in people other than his wife.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:52] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:52] About any of the details of anything. And he didn't want there to be any knowledge of dissension within the ranks of the quorum of the 12. Because as I understand it, the appearance of unanimity of all of the first presidency of the quorum of the 12 being in unanimity, which they aren't.

Greg Gerritsen [02:09:14] Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:14] But they also deeply value the appearance.

Greg Gerritsen [02:09:17] Right?

John Dehlin [02:09:17] They are. And this goes back to the theme of. Of there being a heavy emphasis on appearance even in your family growing up. And there being a difference, like what you said with your family going to the grandpa dinners. Grandma. Grandpa dinners. There being difference between what was projected as the appearance and what was actually true. All that. I'm reading all that into that little

Greg Gerritsen [02:09:41] interaction, but it's all. It's spot on. It's. It's Definitely part of the whole package. And my grandma and granddad had the best relationship. They adored each other and were very loyal to each other. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that he would confide in her, because if there was a relationship that I could emulate, it was theirs, because he treated her like a woman should be treated. She had complete independence and complete. She was valued as a person 100%. And he looked at her as his equal and as someone that was. Was just extremely brilliant, smart, wonderful person. And so it does not surprise me that he would go to her for advice or a sounding board. They. They had the ultimate relationship. And I. That was the relationship that I wanted to emulate. Mm. So.

John Dehlin [02:11:07] Yeah. Wow. And. And because in. With modern sensibilities, there's this idea that Mormonism is this really strict patriarchy.

Greg Gerritsen [02:11:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:16] That women are undervalued. And what I'm hearing you say is that in the. In the example of your grandparents, there was a very strong feeling of equality.

Greg Gerritsen [02:11:26] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:11:26] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:11:27] 100.

John Dehlin [02:11:27] Mutual respect.

Greg Gerritsen [02:11:28] And. And that's why I could never understand because I did see that patriarchal order in other relationships, especially in my mom and dad's relationship and in other aunts and uncles. And I always felt like my granddad was speaking to my aunts and uncles in conference talks, trying to tell them, snap out of it. You need to. You need to be more Christ like to each other and not. You don't need to have this patriarchal order. I mean, there was one conference center, all my brothers and sisters were nudging each other. Like, he's talking to dad. He's trying to get everyone to change. And it was like, to your dad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] Basically that your dad wasn't modeling the type of equality, gender equality in companionship, in a relationship that your mom's dad and mom modeled. Is that what you're saying?

Greg Gerritsen [02:12:36] Exactly. 100%.

John Dehlin [02:12:38] And that your grandpa was what, giving a general conference talk as a way to tell your father to treat your mom better, his daughter? Is that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:12:46] That's what we all thought. And it wasn't only my dad. Some of my uncles, we're like that with. With my mom's sisters. And so we thought that that was a talk specifically for his son in laws. Ooh. Because I mean, he told a couple stories and we're like, this is exactly what dad needs to hear. This is what. This is what this.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] Well, because he would care about the treatment of his daughters.

Greg Gerritsen [02:13:14] Exactly. I mean, now that I have my own two daughters, if I had son in laws Treating their daughters like that, I would be furious. And what better platform than general conference to share a lesson for your son in laws?

John Dehlin [02:13:38] So you're saying some of your dad and, or some of your uncles weren't as respectful to their wives, were President Elder Worland's daughters as, as they should have been, that they mistreated them in ways not to prick on them or call them out, but.

Greg Gerritsen [02:13:55] Correct. And that's, that's the perception that I had and some of my siblings had definitely for my own dad, that's the perception that we had for some of my uncles. Now, I don't know. I, I did not live with those uncles, so I don't know exactly. I only saw small snippets of, of how they were. But talking with some of my cousins, that's the, that's the perception we had. And that's, and that's probably something that will not sit well with my uncles if they ever hear this.

John Dehlin [02:14:33] Sure.

Greg Gerritsen [02:14:34] But that was, that was what we experienced and, and that's what we thought.

John Dehlin [02:14:39] It's weird that they didn't pick up the love and the equality and emulate that. That somehow one generation away from a really loving and yet respected and authoritative relationship, they somehow pick up more patriarchy and more inequality and mistreatment. Why, why weren't they emulating your grandparents?

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:04] I, that's a great question because, I mean, I've, I have siblings that emulated my other grandparents instead. And I scratch my head at some of the things that people latch onto and. I don't know, I mean, my, my dad didn't really have a good home environment growing up. And so I can see how he was, he was doing the best with what he had. And I, I don't want him to think that I think he's a terrible person or anything like that.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] Nope.

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:53] But, but I, I do, I do think that there, there were things that he latched onto that were part of the system and the system kind of creates that kind of mentality and you have to go against the grain to overcome that. And my granddad did go against the grain. And there's been plenty of interactions I've had with people where they'll come up to me and they've told me, especially the football community, because he's a big football fan and there's been quite a few football people that have come up to him and have asked him, should I go on a mission? And he's like, why? He's like, you have a great platform as a football player to share the gospel, if you want, use that as. As your mission. And that goes against the grain.

John Dehlin [02:16:58] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:16:59] Because. Because I know Packer wouldn't say that. Exactly. And I know he's been. I know he was reprimanded for saying that to some people because.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] Because Packer would have been senior to him. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:17:13] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:14] Yes. But he gave a few people, and one turned out to be an NFL player, advice to not go on a mission. And this player did listen to him. And. Oh, that seminary teacher that. Oh, what's his name? It was a baseball player that you interviewed. He's been on a couple times.

John Dehlin [02:17:46] Oh, yeah. Mark. Mark, yeah. Mark Osland.

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:49] I wish he would have. I wish he would have met my granddad.

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:53] Because I know what my granddad would have gave, what advice he would have given him. And Mark, if you. If I ever get to meet you, I would just say thank you for. For your story. But. But that, like, I really wish he would have met my granddad because I know my granddad would have told him that. That he. His mission is to. To develop as an athlete, too. Wow. Because it wasn't just athletes that he gave that advice to as well. He. He gave. He gave that advice to anybody that he felt a mission wasn't for. In their best interest. And I mean, I. I had a friend that. From North Ogden that was given that advice from him at my. At my farewell. And so it was. It was. It was. He was more concerned about the individual than the church.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] That's huge. And that would be very different than my impression of Packer as an example.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:07] And likewise. And that's why I think there was

John Dehlin [02:19:11] a lot of tension.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:12] Tension between the two.

John Dehlin [02:19:13] You were going to mention a second apostle that maybe.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] And you mentioned this idea of clicks to me, that within the apostles.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:21] The first presidency, quorum of the 12, there are clicks. So talk about the second apostle that you were going to mention, if you want, and this idea of clicks and, like, what your perception was of. Of how these clicks were organized and how they operated.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:35] So the second apostle that he. He. He's still a current apostle.

John Dehlin [02:19:41] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:44] And I think most people can guess who he would be.

John Dehlin [02:19:48] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:50] He was pretty brand new when my granddad was. Was passing away, so that should narrow it down quite a bit. I don't think I want to name his name. Okay, that's fine because. Because he's still current and I don't want.

Greg Gerritsen [02:20:10] If his family's listening or whatever. I don't want to feel like them to feel like, it's a personal thing. I have no malice towards the guy. I just think that there was tension between the two. And at the funeral, there was no emotion for him.

Greg Gerritsen [02:20:33] And it was kind of annoying for us as family members that he was given special time at the viewing and a place when, like, we all adored my granddad and just thought so highly of him. And to have someone that you could tell didn't have that same level of respect for him, it was. That was.

Greg Gerritsen [02:21:11] That was as. And I was a believer at the time. And that was a major crack for me in my testimony that this guy is put before our family at the funeral.

John Dehlin [02:21:28] When you say put before, what do you mean?

Greg Gerritsen [02:21:33] His viewing. He was. The. The apostles were given a specific time that they had to be at the viewing, and it was okay for them to be before or after and they could walk in and we all had to step aside for them just to

John Dehlin [02:21:55] let them be at the casket with your grandpa or.

Greg Gerritsen [02:21:58] Right. Or to have meetings or to have their. To have their special time for viewing. And so our. Our family viewing was a lot. It. It was not a normal viewing for. For a grandparent. I mean, I've had a. I've had other. All of my grandparents have passed, and at all the other funerals, the family is the focus. But at a. At an apostles funeral, the Quorum of the Twelve and the Paul and the First Presidency are the focus more so than the family. And so we had. There's quite a few of our. Of our cousins that are not active. And it's. It was pretty upsetting to see that the family wasn't the focus when the church preaches family.

John Dehlin [02:23:08] So this guy who you think probably didn't get along well with your grandpa, maybe they didn't even like each other. This apostle is like being given special time at the viewing to be with your grandpa. I don't even know if you're saying in a performative way, sort of like to be seen. To be seen.

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:26] When. When that was cutting into your time as kids and grandkids with. With your grandpa. Is that what you're saying?

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:34] Yeah. I mean, we had. We had cousins from all over the country coming in, and we just weren't. I mean, with over 40 grandkids and then spouses and. And then great grandkids, there's not a lot of time and there's a lot of people in a small environment, and it's really hard to have the closure time that you would like to have. And for someone that we can tell there's not the feeling of respect that we have. It's really frustrating.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] So I'm sorry.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:18] So that was.

John Dehlin [02:24:20] That was a crack in your testimony.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:21] Oh, major.

John Dehlin [02:24:22] Really?

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:23] Major.

John Dehlin [02:24:23] I would have never guessed that would be a crack in someone's testimony.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:26] For me, it was. This is. This is a church about families. And if. If we're worried about eternal families, we have an. We have a big extended family here. There's a lot of. A lot of people that are struggling with their testimonies in this family. And you're still putting the quorum of the 12 before this family. Like, to me, that was a big. That was a big moment for me.

John Dehlin [02:24:56] Wow. Thanks for sharing. Sorry that happened.

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:01] Yeah, it's. I was. That was a very frustrating experience because we shared our granddad with the world, and it was. It was hard to never get personal closure with him.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] So you didn't. You don't feel like you got that?

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:28] Not. Not really. I mean, it was. It was. There just wasn't, like, the. The personal moments I had with him were not in his final years. So.

John Dehlin [02:25:44] Because he was too busy or.

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:45] Well, I mean, he started having health issues. He started getting dementia. And then they started being really. They started to guard his interactions because

John Dehlin [02:26:01] how could he be a special witness of Christ and have dementia?

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:04] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:26:04] And then what would people say? And like with Monson.

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:07] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:26:08] And Ezra Tap Benson and David L. McKay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:11] Yeah, they don't. They don't want a public figure to have to have private moments in public. And when do you have dementia? Your guard is down and you say things that shouldn't be said. And they didn't want that. So it was like the times he spoke in general conference. The family was really nervous, and my mom was really stressed out every time he was giving a talk the last couple years.

John Dehlin [02:26:52] Afraid of what he might say.

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:53] Yeah. Afraid that he might go off script. But, I mean, some of his best talks were when he had dementia because he would speak from the heart. And every John conference, he wanted to share what he thought it would be. His last conference. As soon as my Grandma died in 2006, he wanted to die as well. He thought that she would outlive him, and it crushed him. And so he was giving his last conference talk. Every conference. Once she died.

John Dehlin [02:27:37] You really loved her.

Greg Gerritsen [02:27:38] Oh, if there's true love, that's what he had for her.

John Dehlin [02:27:44] So that's inspiring.

Greg Gerritsen [02:27:46] So he. He. He was a genuinely good guy as far as, like, my interactions with him and what I saw. Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:27:57] I think he gave the talk about the church or the gospel being like an orchestra and everybody has their role, that there's, you know, there's the piccolo and there's the flute and there's the drums in the. Was that, was that Worthland?

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:12] I don't know that. That one doesn't strike a chord with me. So I can't say yes or no because that one I would have to, I would have to have someone else

John Dehlin [02:28:27] answer that question because for me, and I'm googling it right now, the, that, that talk and, and I'm sure our listeners and viewers are going to be looking this up. But if, if that was him and if that was, you know, if that was the talk that he gave, it's viewed as one of the most inclusive talks ever to basically say we don't need divisions, we don't need, you know, orthodoxy separating people. We need everybody feeling like they have a role to play.

Greg Gerritsen [02:29:04] Yeah. Well, I will never forget the talk he gave at my farewell. So. And this is how my farewell went. You know how most mission farewells go.

John Dehlin [02:29:22] Oh, dude, dude, I just googled it. The talk is concern for the one, and it was given in April of 2008. So I think it might have been his last one of his last talks.

Greg Gerritsen [02:29:36] It was his second to last. Okay, yes. So.

John Dehlin [02:29:40] And I remember because there's the word, the piccolo, for some reason I remember the use of the term piccolo in it. And so I'm gonna keep googling it, but keep tell your story.

Greg Gerritsen [02:29:52] So that matches his beliefs 100%. But so my farewell, you know how most pre, like 1990s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, the missionary gave a talk and it was like, it was the missionaries meeting. Well, so I knew everybody was there to see my granddad talk. So I gave like a two minute talk and then just turned the time over to my granddad. And my granddad was not.

Greg Gerritsen [02:30:32] After the meeting, he said, I really wanted to hear you talk. I'm here for you, not for me. But he talked. He didn't prepare a talk because he didn't think he would have much time. So he was just going to bear his testimony. But when I, when I ended so quickly, he talked about love.

Greg Gerritsen [02:30:56] And he just opened up to first John and just started talking about what love is and how it doesn't matter who you are, Jesus loves you. And he talked about how like the gospel is nothing but love and it doesn't matter where you are, who you are, Christ loves you.

Greg Gerritsen [02:31:26] And that was his message to that audience. And he told me, he said the one thing I want you to go out on your mission is just to listen and love people. And like, that was his advice to me, and that was his advice to everybody in that room.

Greg Gerritsen [02:31:47] And that's the kind of gospel that he taught. And it was always interesting to me to see people interpret things in harsh ways because that was not the gospel that I, I wanted to hear or I, I believed in.

John Dehlin [02:32:13] Yeah. And, and I, I'm glad I, I remembered this. So in this talk, concern for the one Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin. You know, I'm just going to read a little bit of passages. So it's, this is bolded in the actual talk. True disciples of Jesus Christ have always been concerned for the 1.

John Dehlin [02:32:31] Jesus Christ was our greatest example. It goes on to say, some are lost because today I would like to talk about those who are lost. Some because they are different, some because they are weary, some because they have strayed. Some are lost because they are different. They feel as though they don't belong. Perhaps because they are different, they find themselves slipping away from the flock. They may look, act, think and speak differently than those around them. And that sometimes, and that sometimes causes them to assume they don't fit in. They conclude that they are not needed. Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the church should look, talk and be alike.

John Dehlin [02:33:14] I'm thinking about Packer and Bednar on the one hand, who like are about ultra orthodoxy. We all need, you know, the unwritten of order of things. Just this really harshness, right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:33:28] And I'm putting Worthland on the other side of that because he's basically arguing for diversity, not uniformity. And so I'll continue. The Lord did not. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. So I remembered piccolo. That's how I felt this talk. Yep. To only value the piccolos of the world, every instrument is precious. Every instrument.

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:56] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:33:57] And I'm thinking gay people. I'm thinking like everybody, you know, he

Greg Gerritsen [02:34:00] didn't, he didn't label people.

John Dehlin [02:34:01] Yeah, yeah. Every, every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of heavenly Father's children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds to the depth and richness to the whole. And this isn't about like, follow the prophet, obey the brethren, you know, conform to, to the expectations. This is like, I don't care who you are, you're loved and you're needed. As you are.

Greg Gerritsen [02:34:34] Right. This. This is.

John Dehlin [02:34:36] And this is the year he died, right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:34:38] Yes. That this is what was important to him, and this is what he preached to us as a family. So if you were at a family gathering with us and he heard someone making fun of someone, that's the only time he would be upset with us, is if we were making fun of someone being unkind. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:02] So it wasn't like if you were disobedient, it was if you were unkind.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:06] Right. He did not care our status in the church. He did not care what calling people had. He didn't care whether you were active or not. He cared how you treated people. And that was the most important thing. And the only time I saw him upset was when we were making fun of a cousin and he. He was genuinely upset when we would. When we would hurt people's feelings.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] What a tender guy and a football player.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:40] You know what I mean? Yes. Like, he. He was a man's man. He. He cared about the people that could not

John Dehlin [02:35:54] defend.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:54] Stick. Stick up for themselves, defend themselves. He wanted to help them. And I mean, he was a football player. He loved to hit when he played football. But he also told me that after you hit someone, and this is. He's like, you make sure when you're carrying the ball, you run through people and you put. You protect that football. Nothing ever rips that football out of your hands. But after you run someone over, you. You help them up, you make sure that they know that you're a gentleman, but the gentleman can hit. So, like, I mean, that. That talk was. That's who he is, and he's not putting on a show.

John Dehlin [02:36:47] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:36:48] So, yeah, like that. And that's why, like, post faith struggle, my faith journey took so long because of how good he was to me. So, I mean, I put so much, so much in the bank because of him, because of the good of him that it took me so long to deconstruct everything.

John Dehlin [02:37:20] I think that's a great place to end part one, because it's just so powerful. What we've just talked about is I feel like it's like someone with a bad impression of mere Mormon stories would think, oh, Mormon stories, we're just going to tear down the Brethren. And I feel like, what a beautiful tribute to your grandpa and to how the teachings of Jesus Christ and he operated in the world. Right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:37:49] Yeah. I mean, he took his calling very seriously to represent Jesus and he truly tried to emulate the life of Christ and how he treated people. And so I really Believe that was the number one priority for him was to. Was to be a witness of Christ more so than of the Restoration, so. Because I. I heard him talk about Christ way more than I heard him talk about the Restoration.

John Dehlin [02:38:30] Joseph Smith through the Book of Mormon.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:32] Yeah. Right, right. That. That was.

John Dehlin [02:38:35] He was a Christian first and a Mormon second. I. I don't put words in your mouth.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:40] That was the. That was the. The perception was always to follow Christ. It wasn't anything else.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] Follow the brethren.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:51] Right. It was. I was always looked to Christ.

John Dehlin [02:38:55] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:56] So.

John Dehlin [02:38:57] So cool. Like. Yeah, like, I love hearing these stories. This is so powerful. Yeah. All right, well, I don't like these episodes to go three and four hours because then people won't listen to them because it's like, it's way too long. So unless there's any way you want to end this episode, I think it'd be. I think this is a natural place to kind of end part one. And then we'll pick up in part two kind of with your mission.

Greg Gerritsen [02:39:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:39:23] And your faith journey, and then we'll. We'll keep talking about your. Your grandparents along the way. Is there anything you want to say to close out part one, or do you feel like we.

Greg Gerritsen [02:39:31] I think I've talked enough.

John Dehlin [02:39:33] Okay. And I need to go to the bathroom, so. Okay. So. So. All right. So. So. Greg Garrettson, thank you so much for sharing so much about your grandparents and your life for this part one of. Of Mormon Stories podcast. It's been great.

Greg Gerritsen [02:39:48] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:39:48] Yeah. And don't go away. Whether you're on the live stream, join us later or you're watching parts one, part one. Come right back for part two. We're going to be talking about Greg's mission, how in less than positive ways he was treated on his mission because he was the grandson of an apostle. And then what led to him after his mission, what that life was like. We'll talk about the story of Elder Eyring, you know, and wanting you to potentially who he wanted you to date, maybe, or go out with on a date. We'll talk about his adult years as the grandson of an apostle, and then we'll talk about your faith journey and kind of what led you to.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] To kind of where you are now. All right, all right, all right. Thanks so much. And join us now for part two. Come right back and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1662

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It's September 8, 2022, and we are here in part two of our interview with Greg Garretson. Hey, Greg.

Greg Gerritsen [00:00:16] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Welcome back to part two.

Greg Gerritsen [00:00:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] For those who don't know, we just finished almost three hours with Greg talking about what it was like to grow up as the grandson of, of a Mormon apostle, Joseph B. Wirthlin. Greg is the grandson of Joseph B. Wirthlin, and it was amazing. Three hours. If you haven't watched it, pause this episode, go back, watch the first three hours. So many amazing, heartfelt stories.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] I could just say that Joseph B. Wortham was always, was already pretty high on my list of apostles because of what I knew about him. He's kind of jumping to amongst the top of the maybe some of my favorite Mormon apostles of all time. I don't know if some of you would think that that's a low bar, but I'm really liking what I'm hearing. So if you want to be inspired, I don't care if you're a Christian, an atheist, a Mormon, ex Mormon, I think you'll be inspired by what we just learned about Joseph B. Wirthlin as a Mormon apostle. So go check it out.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] What we're going to be talking about now is Greg's life starting kind of with his Mormon mission and how, you know, how a Mormon, how the grandchild of a Mormon apostle can start to have a faith crisis and even potentially question and, or lose their faith and what that's like. That's going to be a major theme for today and for part two. And we're also going to do as much as we can of a Q and A because I've got a bunch of other questions. But, but a lot of the questions that I wanted to ask, we've kind of covered a lot of them. So that's why I think part one is really important.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] We weaved and integrated them into the discussion instead of, like, saving them all to the end. But anyway, welcome back, Greg. Thanks so much for being willing to do this.

Greg Gerritsen [00:02:06] Well, thank you and thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Yeah, I was telling you at the break that I think you're believing Mormon family. If they aren't, they should be very proud and honored of this interview because even though it might be viewed as an act of disloyalty to even do an interview on Mormon stories, let alone talk about your faith crisis, like to have someone who may not be an orthodox Mormon now as yourself speak so honorably about your grandpa, who's a Mormon apostle. I don't think there can be a bigger positive endorsement of your grandpa as a Mormon apostle than have you speaking so highly of him. Right.

Greg Gerritsen [00:02:48] Well, and I.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] And your grandma. And your grandma. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:02:51] I have no desire to tear anyone or anything down.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:02:55] I. I just want to share the. The experiences that I had. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna start by. By telling you a quick story. Is that okay?

Greg Gerritsen [00:03:07] Yeah. Great.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] So I was friends with Mark McConkey, which is a grandson of Bruce R. McConkey, when I was a grad student at Utah State University. And I think Mark's dad was Mark McConkey, and I think they're from Colorado. But I remember once Mark saying to me, and Mark was a great guy, humble guy, nice guy, smart guy, kind guy. But I remember him telling me, kind of like almost with this chest puffing up, he said, none of the McConkey children or grandchildren have ever lost their faith and have ever left the church. You know what I mean?

Greg Gerritsen [00:03:46] Oh, man.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] And by the. By this point, I was. I'd lost my faith for sure.

Greg Gerritsen [00:03:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] But I was also still active in. In the church. But I thought, number one, there's no way that's true. Number two, what a weird, boastful thing to say. But number three, like, what a. What a weird toxic family culture that must have been in. Because what that means is that there were people who had lost their faith, but they were terrified to tell anybody.

Greg Gerritsen [00:04:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] And then just. Just the fact that that was a point of pride and of boasting and just all that pressure, it just made me feel like, what a toxic family. You know what I mean? And I don't know why I'm starting with that story, but we're about to get to how the grandson of a Mormon apostle could lose his faith. And so I just thought that would be an interesting place to start. And Mark's a great guy. I'm not disparaging.

Greg Gerritsen [00:04:39] No. I definitely know where that attitude comes from.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] Anything you want to say about that?

Greg Gerritsen [00:04:49] I guess I'll just say there is that pride in. Some people value the family name more than anything. And there is that pride that we're all righteous. And that was always off putting to me. And until many people, many of our. Many of my cousins found that kind of thinking very off putting in and downright disgusting.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Yeah. And it sounds like that's not where your grandpa's treasure or his heart was, right.

Greg Gerritsen [00:05:36] No, not at all. He valued everyone in the family, whether they were active or not. And we had plenty of people, people that were not active, and he knew it. And he was the most Christlike to one of my cousins that had left the church. And he and my grandma were one of the only adults that actually treated this cousin well. And so if it wasn't for, if it wasn't for them, no one would have been there for this cousin of mine.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] And

Greg Gerritsen [00:06:23] it was always interesting to see that his own parents were not accepting of him. But the only ones that were were my grandma and granddad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] So I love it. I love this. Okay, so we, we got sidetracked, but I don't see the sidetracked because I think these themes were all kind of interwoven. But, but I think, is it fair to say you talked about last episode, about your experience at Westminster College where you took a Bible class, made you question some of the historicity of the biblical fixture of figures?

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] And it made you start wondering whether some of the Bible was mythological versus actually histor. And, and we were about to jump to your mission. Is there anything about your patriarchal blessing that was important to your story, or is it not really noteworthy? Because we didn't talk about that. We did talk about your grandpa setting you apart for your mission.

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:22] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Is there, is your patriarchal blessing playing to this at all? I was just curious.

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:25] I don't know. I, I, I never really understood my patriarchal blessing. It was, there's things in it that I was like, what? Whatever that means.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Troubling things or.

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:38] No, just, just general statements that I'm like, okay, so I don't know. I, I had a, I had a companion read it and ask him what he thought, because I was like, I don't know what this means. And he's like, well, it's interesting, but I don't know what it means either.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Okay. So just weird things.

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:59] Yeah. And that's how, that's how, that's how much stock I put into it. I let, I let another companion read my, My patriarchal blessing when I was told that's a no. No.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:12] So.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Okay. Didn't mean a lot to you?

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:16] I, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't live by everything it said.

Preparing for and Entering the Mission Field

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Okay. So we talked last episode about you being called to the Preston, England Mission.

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:29] The Manchester, Manchester, England mission.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] And you going straight to the MTC in. Is that Preston? Is that where it was?

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Okay. And that, and talk about you. You talked last episode about wanting no one on your mission to know that you were the grandson of an apostle. Do you want to talk about why that, you know, it's obvious.

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:48] But yeah, I mean it's just when people know that they automatically the expectations of who you are are all of a sudden different. And for people your age, they wonder why you're with them. They wonder. The, they wonder, well, is this someone that's just like going to be reporting to the mission president on us? And so if I didn't have to deal with that, I thought that things would be so much better not having anyone ever know about that relationship. And then, and a year before I went on my mission, one of my cousins returned from that same mission but his last name was Wirthlin, so everybody knew. So I was really hopeful that people that he knew. I was just hopeful that I wouldn't go to the same area that he went because I knew he would try to contact people.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:15] So I was, I was looking to just have a two year break from

John Dehlin [00:10:23] the

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:26] tension of that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] The pressure, the expectations, the.

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:32] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] The objectification of you not as a human but as like a position of status.

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:40] Right. And, and being used to get to my granddad.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:46] Like there's, there was many times growing up where people would try to contact my granddad because they knew us.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] And what types of things would they want from your granddad?

Greg Gerritsen [00:10:57] Oh, just, they would just want special favors or to get put in front of like just, just to get to know the, the, the leaders and like when, when access to power. I don't know what their intentions are, but it was just really, it's just really weird. Kind of creepy to, to have that kind of interactions with people.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Yeah. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:11:31] So, yeah, I mean, so that, that was my hope. I, I mean, I guess going back one step further. So when I got my mission call, I hand delivered my. Because I was doing yard work and chores for my, my grandparents. When I had my mission papers ready, I just, I handed it to my granddad and he just took it into the office and five days later I had my call. So I guess that's one perk is you get to hand deliver things to where they go. So I got my call really fast, much faster than I was expecting. I wasn't expecting it for a few weeks because that's how all of my friends worked out. But he took it into the missionary department himself and said make sure you send him somewhere good. I was expecting Tahiti because that's where I told him I wanted to go.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] But he had served in Germany or Switzerland Like, I thought maybe you shared his birthday, so I would have expected him to go tell them.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Make it German speaking. But that didn't happen.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:55] Yeah. And I would have been happy with Germany or Switzerland. I mean, my little brother went to Switzerland. He's the one that lucked out and got to go to Switzerland.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:06] But I love England. But I was hoping for somewhere in the South Pacific because I heard that they got to wear shorts. So I was hoping for Tahiti, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:23] But anyways, so I get my mission call, and then the realization that I had to go through the temple, and I was. I was not very. I was not looking forward to it. And I. I didn't know why, but I didn't really know much about the temple.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:44] And so my parents set up the. The temple, and I went through the Salt Lake Temple so that my granddad could be there. And it turned out I went through with. With. I think it was Governor Lovett's son or Governor Lovett was in the same, Same, same temple ceremony that I went when I went through the first time, as well as.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:24] Oh, there was another apostle. I forgot his name already. I mean, I forgot who it was at this point, but there was two apostles, grandkids, and someone from Governor Levitt's family in the same temple session going through for the first time, Salt Lake Temple. Salt Lake Temple.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Okay, so these are live endowments, so actors playing the role of Indians.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:50] There was a lot of excitement. And I just remember, like, at the end when we got to the celestial room, I was just eyes in the headlight. Like I said, deer in the headlight. Yeah, deer in the headlight. And I was just shocked and I was just kind of speechless because I was completely unprepared for what happened. And I just remember just thinking,

John Dehlin [00:15:26] why

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:27] is there Satan in the temple? And I had some serious questions and I was just kind of blown away.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] What were some of the feelings, if you had to describe some of your feelings going through the temple?

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:41] I was in shock. I mean, I had no idea that that's what it was.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] Give some adjectives besides shock. The temple ceremony experience was.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:52] It was terrifying to me.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:57] It was unnerving. It was disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:03] I was. I was questioning everything. And. But at the same time, there was so much focus on the three individuals and me being one of them, kind

John Dehlin [00:16:18] of the blue blood elite, respected missionaries.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:23] And I had people coming up to me for the, for the. I'd never met and asking me what I thought. And I. My granddad was standing right next to me, and I couldn't be honest, and I couldn't say anything.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And was he in the endowment ceremony with you? Yes. Oh, your grandpa was?

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:41] Yeah. And.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] Oh, wow.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] So everybody's like, oh, Elder Wohl's here. And this adamant.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:48] Yes. There were two apostles.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:51] Oh, yeah. And I can't for the life of me. I was in so much shock that.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] Oh, I see.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:57] I totally blacked out who the other apostle was.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] Okay, so Governor Levitt and two apostles were in a single endowment ceremony when you're taking out your diamonds. So that's. That's a big deal for a temple worker.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:10] Right?

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:11] Or other.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Or other members are going to notice.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:14] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] So.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:16] So we had. We had temple workers coming up to us. We had other members coming up to us, all asking us questions. And I was just in shock, and I was trying. I was. I wanted to get out of there as fast as I could.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:31] And so. Yeah, so. And I went to the temple one other time before my mission because I was so shocked. I was just like, what did I just get into? And so then I go to. I get set apart as a missionary at church office building.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] By the way, you weren't able to, like, say, hey, Grandpa, there are some things about the temple ceremony that really disturbed me. Can I talk to you about it? No, because.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:02] Because I. I mean, there were so many people.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] No, but even after, like, the next. The next week.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:07] Well, I was. I asked my mom, and she said, well, you really can't talk about it unless you're in the temple. And one was, I wasn't going to be in the temple with him.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:18] Until I got married.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Right. Yeah. So, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:22] It just really wasn't an option to talk to him.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] I mean, I just. I just want to note, you told the story last episode about the seminary. Whoever. The person that wanted you to ask your grandpa if he had seen Jesus.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Which, again, I'll just say is one of the. It's like their value and credibility amongst the Mormon people is derived from the perception that they have.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] And you never felt comfortable asking him. Here's another example. One of the most generally disturbing experiences in the Mormon experience is the temple ceremony. This guy's your grandpa, and you can't talk to him about it. There's this weird family, can't talk about hard things. Just generally Mormonism. But even with the granddad as an apostle, there's just things, really big things that you just don't talk about. And that's weird. Well, sad. To me.

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:12] And part of the reason why I couldn't talk to him was because how many people are coming up to talk to him?

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Right.

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:20] And that was a theme all. Like every time we went out in public.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:27] Members would, would just bombard him. And like, I mean, at my, my farewell, it was the same thing. Like most farewells, people go up to the missionary afterwards. I had no one come up to me afterwards, which I was fine with because, I mean, a lot of my close friends had already left on their missions.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:54] And so my high school football coach, who wasn't lds, he came up to me and talked to me and, and that meant a lot to me. But other than that, the line to meet my granddad was from the podium all the way back into the cultural hall, into the gym.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] And did that make you, you say that didn't bother you.

Greg Gerritsen [00:20:25] It was just expected. It was just kind of like par for the course. And so like, I mean we would, there was, there was a good stretch where we didn't see him for a while and he was speaking at Ricks College, Idaho, it's now BYU Idaho. And so we, we made the drive up to Rexburg and we were going to have, we were going to have dinner with him, but it was a snowy day so we ended up not getting there in time. And then afterwards we were going to have dessert with him, but because of the people that blocked the path and just kind of bombarded him, we ended up making the drive and not even being able to have a conversation with him.

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:23] And so like that was. The public side is you just can't have a conversation. You can't have a private conversation when members are just bombarding them and trying to get in front of them.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] Yeah. And that's, that's its own thing. Thanks for sharing those stories. And even days or weeks later, you still don't have that conversation with him, right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:58] No, no. Because I mean, I was a college kid. I was trying to finish finals, I was trying to get my pilot's license. As, as much as the temple bothered me.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:17] I also put it in the back of my mind really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:21] And I wasn't, I was a 19 year old kid that wasn't focused on it.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:30] So, okay. Nowadays, now, if, if he was around now, I would have, I would have had that conversation with him now. I would have and he would have, he would have made time if I would have asked for the time.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Got it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:45] But when we were together, it's hard to make time when it's not the time, isn't there? So fast forward. I fly out to my mission. I get to the MTC that we had travel problems, and I ended up getting.

MTC Experience and Mission Dynamics

Greg Gerritsen [00:23:10] We missed connections. Ended up. I was supposed to fly out with a big group of missionaries. We ended up getting separated and we all came in on different flights, got in late. I get a mission companion. My very first. My MTC companion was from Europe. He was from Holland.

Greg Gerritsen [00:23:33] And he. He was a very by the book, like, 100% obedience missionary. And so he and I hit it off great from the start, except for we did it because I'm not. Yeah, my. My. My rebellion side came out pretty quick.

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:00] And the very first day, I guess I had missed, because our flight got in late. I had missed the opening, the welcome for all the missionaries. And so I didn't meet the MTC president the first day, and I had no idea who he was.

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:27] And it turns out that he and my granddad were good friends. And he had told the whole MTC that Eller Wirtham's grandson was coming.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] Oh, no.

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:42] So my MTC companion knew that I was Eller Wirthlin's grandson. So he thought that I was going to be the most obedient companion he would ever have. So that first night when I got there, I got there at like 4 in the afternoon, and then 6 o' clock, we had meetings, and I hadn't slept in over 36 hours.

Greg Gerritsen [00:25:12] So as soon as the meetings started, they started talking and I was out cold and I slept the whole meeting. And he went into the MTC president's office, which. The MTC in Preston, England, is really small. There's only, I think There was like 40 missionaries in there while I was there. So it was a very, like, everybody knows everybody.

Greg Gerritsen [00:25:45] Well. He went in and told on me. And the next morning, the MTC president pulls me aside and is like, hey, your companion told on you for sleeping. And I was like, of course I slept. I hadn't slept in 36 hours.

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:02] I was like, I'll fall asleep again today. I'm super tired. So. And then. And he also told on me for. Because when lights went out, I was awake and I was talking to another missionary from the US and this guy would tell on me for every little thing that I did, every little rule. And so I like, my rebellious side came out pretty quick.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] How'd your mission pres. Or the MTC president treat you?

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:40] Oh, he. He was. He was fine with me. The MTC was. Was. Was. Was fairly good, other than the fact that, like, I had. I had people asking me questions all the time and like, I was just trying to learn the gospel at that point. I was trying to learn. I was trying to read the Book

John Dehlin [00:27:03] of Mormon for the first time.

Greg Gerritsen [00:27:06] For the first time.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:27:07] I was trying to learn the discussions because at that point we were still memorizing all six discussions. And I'm a terrible memorize person. And it was a nightmare because I had everybody looking at me to be the example, and I was not a good student. I was not knowledgeable. And then I had a companion that was. That was trying to get me sent home because I wasn't matching up with his expectations either.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] What types of questions were the most common questions? Besides, has your grand grandpa seen Jesus? Like any other really big ones that have.

Greg Gerritsen [00:27:57] Has he seen the lost or the lost plates or like, the sword of Laban? Yeah, exactly. Like, where are. Where are those things kept? I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't even know. So a lot of questions like that, like, what's in the underground bunkers in the mountains? And I was like, wait, what are those? I haven't heard the. Haven't heard about these.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Interesting.

Greg Gerritsen [00:28:30] So I got. I got a lot of questions like that from some of the MTC instructors as well. And then, like, I, The. I would. I would try to get away from my companion as much as possible because he was. He was driving me crazy. And so after one of the times he told on me, the showers at the mtc, you have to walk out of your dorm, walk across the hall and the entryway to the mtc, you can see up. You can see everybody from their shoulders up. And he. He had told on me for something really, really petty. And I got back from meeting with the MTC president, who told me he was apologizing to me for having to bring me in because it was almost daily. And I was there like 19 days. And I must have met with him about 25, 30 times.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] Really?

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Kind of being harassed, basically.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:44] Oh, it was. It was a daily occurrence, sometimes twice a day.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:49] And. And finally, like, I. I got. I had gotten just sick of it. And so he was. I had gotten back upstairs into the dorm, and I saw that he was. He had gone into the shower and this. The stalls were on the inside, and he put his clothes on the outside. So I took his clothes and took them back to the dorm and made him walk, do the walk of shame from the showers to the dorm.

Greg Gerritsen [00:30:27] And then I went downstairs and I got out of there. And I was in the. I was in the walkway where you could see him come through. And when he walked through, I heard him just yell my name.

Greg Gerritsen [00:30:47] And I had to explain that one to the MTC president because I had just met with him, and I told him that I would take care of it. So that was kind of the. The theme for the MTC was that I was always in trouble, and I just wasn't. I wasn't as knowledgeable as I should be.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:11] So I. I get out of the mtc, and everybody that I left the MTC with knew that my granddad was an apostle. And I get to my first area.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] And

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:28] that companion, he was also Dutch, so he knew my MTC companion, and he had been warned about me through this companion because the church is so small there in Holland. Well, he and I got along to a degree, but also were butting heads quite a bit. We got in a really bad traffic accident, and the car flipped, and he had glass all over his face. The member that we were with broke his back or something like that. He injured his back pretty bad, and I didn't have a cut on me. And so that. That didn't. That didn't help out the situation because he was like, see, because you're Elder Worthland's grandson, you're protected, and we're not.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Oh, my gosh. And in his mind, you hadn't earned it, Right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:32:38] Yeah. I don't know what. But there was some tension from that point on. And so we got mission transfer. We got. Not mission. We got. We got transferred. We both got transferred out of that area because of that, and we got transferred into a new area. And we were both hoping that we would be split up at that point.

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:05] And it was. It was a strange situation. He. He started telling everybody in that area. And so I asked the mission president, I said, I need a new area and I need a new companion. Can you put me with someone that doesn't know anything about me? So he put me.

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:26] The next transfer, he put me with two other missionaries. I was in a trio, and they knew nothing about me. And if we were together for about three weeks, and then we had zone conference. And at zone conference, a visiting general authority came.

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:46] And I had just been the silent missionary. Life was great with these two. They weren't too concerned with the rules. Like, we did work, but we also had fun. And like, the day before zone conference, we. One of them needed to go pick up something from the store, and so we went. We went shopping, and not on p. Day And I was like, cool. I was like, this is good. The rules aren't. The rules are meant to. To be broken. Like, that's kind of my. My mentality.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:26] Well, at Zone, at Zone Conference, the visiting general authority. Others. Wick. Oh, he was reactivated by my granddad and my granddad's dad. They were his home teachers, and I had no knowledge of him at all. I didn't know his name. I had never heard of him, never met him.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] This is Zwick of Zwick Construction, right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:53] Yes, yes. And he called me out at that Zwick Zone conference and had me come up and stand in front and like, from that day on, everybody knew my granddad and just assumed that I knew every general authority because he put his arm around me and he's like, I want you guys all to meet my good friend, Elder Garrettson. And I didn't know him from Adam. And from that day on, I don't think any of the missionaries fully trusted me because they, like that trio, thought that I had been dishonest with them.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Oh, like you were spying on them?

Greg Gerritsen [00:35:41] Yeah. And like, they asked if I was going to report them for. And so I had to try to tell them, look, it's not. It's not what you think it is. But the relationship was changed from that day forward, and I had a reputation of being put with troubled missionaries.

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:08] And I tried to allow people to be who they were. And at the same point, I was trying so hard to. To be a good missionary and to like, to do my best. I really believe that. I was a firm believer that the church was true because of all the experiences I had had with my granddad, that I was trying to teach the gospel.

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:47] But at the same. At the same time, that balance of living up to the expectations, but also trying to be myself, it was next to impossible with that preconceived expectations that people had of me. And my mission president expected me to be assistant to the president. And he had. He told me a couple times that I was going to be one. Wow. And I did not want that.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] Really?

Greg Gerritsen [00:37:26] No, that's the last thing. Well, no, that's not the last. I never wanted that.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] It's not even on the list.

Greg Gerritsen [00:37:34] Because my cousin that had served in that mission was assistant and he was. His last name was Worthland. And that, like, if that it met, it matched his personality. And I. I did not want to be the. The assistant that was the grandson of an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [00:38:05] And. I had been district leader, zone leader. But I didn't enjoy those callings. It was not something that I wanted or I definitely did not ask for him, but I definitely felt the pressure from him to be that. And he asked me to share stories in zone conference. In mission conferences, we had. Any time we had a couple apostles and we had President Monson visit our mission and they always tried to put me front and center at those events and I would always try to sit further back than they asked. And, and it was.

Greg Gerritsen [00:39:04] Yeah, just every time, every time we'd have a high profile person come, it was always, I want you to meet Elder Garretson. His granddad is Elder Worthland.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] What's that about?

Greg Gerritsen [00:39:24] I don't know. I think it's like it really bothered me because it puts people in front of other people. And to me it was extremely awkward, it was extremely painful. And it also, it put a wedge between my relationship and other missionaries. And so I felt, I felt,

John Dehlin [00:40:01] I

Greg Gerritsen [00:40:01] felt very awkward around people.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] What's kind of ironic about all that is that number one, Jesus was about everyone's equal. You know, no one's better than anyone else. And then your grandpa, like we read last, last episode, his talk about the orchestra and you need the piccolos, you need the flutes, and everyone has a role. So I think even your grandpa just represented the antithesis of that kind of royal elite treatment of, you know.

Greg Gerritsen [00:40:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Of family of Mormon apostles. And yet our church is like the reason why you're on this podcast right now is because Mormons are so just like in the uk, they're fascinated with the royal family. Like Mormons are fascinated with the families of apostles.

Greg Gerritsen [00:40:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] So it's, it's this weird kind of almost unchristlike and I would say unworthland like dynamic that like runs the church in some ways.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:05] Definitely 100%. And it was such a theme throughout my life.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:10] That you are judged on the relationship.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:15] And if you don't uphold, if you don't live up to that, you are a failure and you've, you've let everyone down.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:25] And I get was I had lots of missionaries ask me when I was going to be assistant to the president. And it was, it was such a common theme that I, I got sick of it. And I remember as I was getting close to the end of my mission, the mission president actually told me that I was going to be called an assistant the next transfer.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:00] But at that same time, we were teaching someone that had some really valid questions about the church. And it was disturbing to me. Like, I had never looked at polygamy and I had never looked at the Joseph Smith story, and he had told us that he used to work for the church and he worked with a lot of the anti Mormon propaganda is what he called it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:31] And he could answer any questions we had. And this was about a week after he told me that I was going to be assistant. And so I called him up and I said, hey, president, I've got some serious questions here.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:47] And he assured me that all my questions could be answered and said, I'm kind of busy right now, but I will answer these questions, but don't worry about these. He's a, you have the spirit, you have the tools you need.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:07] And he just kind of left it at that. But that transfer came and I came and went and there was a different set of assistants to the presence, which I was so glad that it was not me. I was so relieved that I did not get called.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] So maybe you telling your mission president that you were having some questions or doubts made him take you off the list of being ap.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:36] That's. That was the impression that I had.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] Nice, nice job.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:40] That was because from that point on, our relationship had changed.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] Oh, that's not good. Yeah, it is.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:50] Well, and I, you know, I. I don't know. I went to one mission reunion since I got home, and since then, that's the only time I've talked with him since then. But I really don't have much of a relationship with anyone on my mission. There's literally two people that I still keep in contact with from my mission,

John Dehlin [00:44:21] and

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:23] one of them, it's because he's moved close to where I live and it's a very casual relationship. And the other is a companion from Finland that has left the church years ago. And he and I had the best relationship with. Because he was a fellow rebellious at heart missionary that we worked, but we also picked and chose the rules that we would follow and the rules we wouldn't. And we got along so great. We also taught a lot of people because we got along so well, but he didn't care about my relationship

John Dehlin [00:45:13] and

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:13] he never once made it a big deal at all.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] That's nice. So you have a couple people that were friends.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:21] Yeah, but other than that, I've lost contact with everyone. And I mean, the thing that sticks out on my mission was that my relationship with my granddad was used by leaders, by bishops and stake presidents, in the wards and stakes that I served in and by the mission president to kind of put me out there as the grandson of an apostle and kind of as, As a, you can believe him. You can believe what he says because who he's related to. And that. That was. That was done time and time again. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] I'm sorry. So that just. So overall, your impressions of your mission are what

Mixed Feelings and Questions Leaving the Mission

Greg Gerritsen [00:46:32] I would say. We. We had lots of. Lots of experiences where I was used as a. As a tool and not as, like, not allowed to be an individual and just. Just overall not valued for who you are as an individual.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:14] And I mean, so many. So many cases where the goal is to protect the church and to build the church more than it is to take care of people. And like, I had companions that had no business being on a mission for either mental health issues or health issues, and they tried to keep people on missions at such a cost to the individuals that, like, they. They really valued keeping people on missions more than doing the right thing for the individual.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:04] And like, I had some companions that had some pretty significant mental health issues. And the three months that I was there, we maybe went out of the apartment five times.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Ooh.

Greg Gerritsen [00:48:20] And this. This companion, like, has had just a rough adult life because of that. And I mean, I. I have lost all contact with him, but I. I feel so badly for him for what he went through. And they tried so hard to just keep him there that they did not want him going home early. And then we had missionaries that were pretty blatantly breaking some big rules, like hot tubbing in the baptismal font with sister missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] What the. What the.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:07] Yeah. And none of them were sent home. And yet there was someone that was sent home, but he was sent home for reading anti Mormon literature and having discussions and truly questioning the church. And yet people that were breaking the big rules were kept out on the mission because they don't want them to be sent home. And so my thoughts going home were there's certain things that will get you. Get you sent home. Everything else is on the table. And it was like, it was pretty clear also to me because of how my mission president treated me once I asked questions what those things were, and questioning the church is of the utmost negative things. You can get to the biggest.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] No. No.

Greg Gerritsen [00:50:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:50:29] And. And that was. That was the big takeaway from my mission was do not question the church.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] So did you leave your mission with big questions? And if so, what were they?

Greg Gerritsen [00:50:45] Well, yeah, I mean, I. So my mission, I. I had quite a bit of trauma on my mission, too. I mean, my mom got cancer on my mission, and I had a good friend pass away on my mission. I was riding her. We weren't boyfriend and girlfriend, but I was really close to her and she got in a car accident and died on my mission.

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:14] And my mission president asked me if I wanted to extend my mission and I said, absolutely not. I need to go home. I mean, I just. It was. I did not like the tension. I did not like. There are so many things that I did not like. I mean, I kept a journal on my mission. I have not opened those ever. And I don't want to open those because there are so many things that I.

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:48] So many emotions that I just do not want to go back to. And so many relationships that I feel like were just. They were blown up from the very start.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:02] That I couldn't be myself around them and they couldn't be themselves around me. That I. I never want to read those journals because it wasn't who I was and it wasn't who they were. And I just had nothing but bad experiences in a large chunk of my mission.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] And for a huge takeaway for me, a huge takeaway from this interview, last part. And this part is that kind of from. From one angle, it's like, oh, family of apostles are royalty and they're elite and they're privileged and they get all the good stuff. And what I'm taking away from this interview is that's. No, you know, whether it's your grandpa, you know, not being able to really be the part of his grandkids lives that he wants to, or you just constantly being badgered and judged and even bullied or, you know, harassed throughout your entire life, it just sounds like no picnic at all.

Greg Gerritsen [00:53:16] Yeah. I mean, so I will never forget Runcorn, England, that that is where I went through a period of my life that was just absolute hell. My mom was diagnosed with cancer. My friend died. My secret was taken out in the open and just shared with everybody without me allowing it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:00] And I got a letter from my granddad and it had been opened by someone in the mission home. And I was so mad. I was at rock bottom just because I felt like I couldn't talk to anybody. I mean, you can't call anybody, you can't. I can't talk to anybody. I can't write anybody without.

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:29] I can't trust that any correspondence is private. People. If they saw that a letter from church headquarters was addressed to me, they opened it and it was. My granddad would write a letter from his office and just send it. And almost every letter that I got from him was opened.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] Can you explain that?

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:01] I wish I could.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] Why would they feel that they had the right to open an apostle's private letter to his grandson.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:11] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:15] Yeah. And I don't know if it was another missionary, if it was someone that. I don't know who did it. But I like, my faith in the mission was just, like, I had no privacy. I had no respect. And so I left with a very sour taste in my mouth. And it just, like, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't trust people. And so I was so excited to get home.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:56] Yeah. I mean, it was just. I think missions are a microcosm of, like, the church hierarchy at its worst. And that was my ultimate takeaway is like, The problems of the church on steroids are what a mission is like.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:22] So that's. I mean, so that's. I mean, the Methodist. I don't know what Methodist clergy are called. That was crack one. Crack two was my whole mission experience, really.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:42] And then getting home. I. Like, my mom. My mom survived. She did. She did. Well, we. I transferred from. From Westminster up to Weber State. I. Financially, I just could not afford that. That place.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] They had a pilot program.

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:05] No. But I. I went to flight school at the Ogden Airport.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:11] And I. I got a degree in geography at Weber State. And were you there when Damon Lilliard. I did. I was there.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] I just wasn't sure, but had to ask.

Post-Mission Life, Marriage, and Temple Experience

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:23] Yeah, I had a class with Dame.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] What?

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:25] Yeah. And he just amazing. Like, it was. It was so fun that those basketball games were just a blast. I mean, he. He was. He was impressive.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] For those who don't follow sports, he's an NBA all star who plays for the Portland Trailblazers. Short guy, comes out of Weber State and is one of the best basketball players in the whole NBA. Kind of a freak, right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:53] Yeah. Oh, just amazing. But at the time, he was very down. I have no idea how he is now. And he would never rec. He would never remember who I was.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Right.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:03] I mean, who would. So, yeah, I mean, it's. But just an incredible athlete. And it was. It was fun. It was. It was fun to watch him and so fun. I mean, I loved Weber State. It was just the perfect college for me. And I've majored in geography, had some incredible classes. I was really fortunate to have the professors I had. And it brought more questions. I mean, I'll never forget my Geography of Africa class and my Geography of Europe class. Where we talked about different languages and where they came from and their origins and the history of. Of the those two continents and how far back people have history there. And learning about that challenged everything that I had known about. About the world.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] How does that challenge orthodox Mormonism?

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:15] Oh, I mean, for those who don't know. Yeah. I mean, when you have languages that have origins beyond 10,000 years, and I mean, these people are dated well back. I can't remember the specific dates, but tens of thousands of years, and we have a world that's supposedly 6,000 7,000 years old.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] Which is Mormon doctrine.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:51] Which is Mormon doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:59:52] Yeah. And the first humans were who in Mormon doctrine?

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:58] Adam and Eve. Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:00] 6,000 years ago.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:01] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] What color were they?

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:03] Yeah, white. And I mean, everything in geography of Africa and geography of Europe just totally contradicted everything that was taught to me in the church.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] And languages in Mormonism would have come from where?

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:21] The Tower of Babel, which would have

John Dehlin [01:00:23] been less than 6,000 years ago.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:25] Yeah. And I was fascinated by these lessons. And at the same time, my grandma had died and my granddad.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] 2006. Ish. 2007.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:39] Yeah. So I was at Weber State from 2004 to 2007, 2008. And I. So I met my wife in 2004, like a month or two after I got home from my mission. I started taking her friend out on a date, on a couple dates, and there was just nothing there. And I was talking to my wife about it, and we were just laughing and we just started hanging out. And a year later, we got married. And so I got married in 2005.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] Really quick, I have to jump back.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Anything you want to share about what your grandpa wrote to you on your mission, about what those letters were like? You don't have to go there if there's nothing interesting there.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:31] I mean, it was. He would tell me about. He would tell me about some of our ancestors, people that he looked up to. He would tell me it was a very like, grandpa to grandson letter. Like, what you would expect from, like, I'm proud of you. Like, I pray for you every night. Like, I. I can't wait to go to a football game with you again. Like, that's the type of conversation or correspondence that we had.

John Dehlin [01:02:12] It wasn't like, obey the rules religiously.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:15] No, no, never.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] Don't disappoint the family name.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:18] Never, never. And I would never like that. That's not who he was. And that's like the correspondence. He would tell me stories about some of my ancestors that lived in England. He would tell me, like, what he was doing. Not great detail, but I'm going here on assignment. I've got to do this. I've been thinking about you lately. Whoever opened up the mail was greatly disappointed.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] It wasn't like Jesus told me the other day, blah, blah, blah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:57] Exactly. Exactly. And I know they were disappointed because. They were. If anything exciting was sent in those, it would have been shared throughout the mission before I got it.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:24] Because there just was nothing secret about me.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:29] So.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] Okay. So jumping back to your meeting your wife, 2004.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:36] Yeah. So I met her 2004. I met her about a month and a half after I got home from my mission. But I had been, I went on quite a few dates with other people.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] Do you want to tell the story of Elder Eyring and General.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:50] Yeah. So. So, so there was a. I think it was a First Presidency Christmas devotional, and I was there with a friend. And after, either after or before, all the general authorities, families sit up at the front. There's a number of tickets that are given to each general authority. And, and there's typically enough that you can bring a friend or two.

Greg Gerritsen [01:04:27] And so I had a friend with me, and we're just talking, and Elder Eyring came up to me and said to me. He's like, oh, I'd like you to meet. And it's been so long, I can't remember if it was. It's got to be his granddaughter. Might have been his daughter. I can't remember. But he's like, you're Elder Worthland's son. Right. Or grandson. Right. And I was like, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:04:54] And he's like, I have someone that I'd like you to take out on a date. And it was his either granddaughter or daughter. And I just brushed it off. I was like, yeah, thanks, but no thanks. And it was just an awkward, awkward moment because I was like, I don't want that, that kind of date.

John Dehlin [01:05:22] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:23] So.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Well, you talked last episode about, like, though Gordon Hinckley and your grandpa both being Bittners, The b. Both of their names are, you know, they're related.

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] And that your grandpa was in a bishopric with Russell and Nelson.

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] I, I, I happen to sort of have some friendships where I would know that, like the Huntsman's and the McConkies and the Worthlands and the Ballards, they're all, they're all intermarried. Like so many of the apostles.

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Are intermarried with other family members of apostles and general authorities.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:01] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] And there's this kind of, I don't want to say incestuous, just like this dynastic royal intermarrying of church elite church leaders.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:11] It happens. And I liked the space. I grew up in North Ogden and I know it's only an hour away, but it was worlds apart.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] You like that space?

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:23] I loved that space.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] The distance from Salt Lake.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:25] Yes, yes. Because there was enough space growing up that it wasn't the focus that it was in Salt Lake and on the mission.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:37] And it was, it was a different, it was a. It was enough of a different culture that it felt good and you could date someone without. I mean, it was a factor, but it wasn't as big of a factor as it, as it could have been.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] But the intermarrying of elite blue blood Mormon royalty, it's a thing.

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:04] Oh, it's. It's a thing. It's a thing. I mean, I've got cousins that have married grand grandkids of other apostles and prophets.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] Not that that's bad. I think it's just human. It's just, it's human, but.

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:15] Right, but does have an element of. Is it like. I don't know, it's just, it's just different and it's just something that I chose not to entertain.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] Yeah. So you didn't want anything to do with that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:30] Right. Well. And at the time I was dating someone else, so.

John Dehlin [01:07:33] Right.

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:35] So. And it didn't. Yeah, it didn't pique my interest at all.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Yeah. Okay, so, I mean, tell us what you what, what's important about your story, especially in the context of your developing faith, your doubts and your questions about your faith.

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:53] So when I realized I was going to marry my wife, she hadn't been through the temple. And with the temple with me, it was such a negative experience that I wanted her to be more prepared than I was.

Greg Gerritsen [01:08:09] And so I tried to prepare her the best I could. So I told her how scary it was. And I tried to, I tried to explain everything that would happen so that she wouldn't be as shocked as I was, because it was, it was.

Greg Gerritsen [01:08:28] And I, I had been trying to overcome that by going back to the temple. And I mean, I, I was doing my best to overcome my anxiety over the temple, especially meeting my wife. Her family was pretty devout and it was, I didn't want to let her family down, but that was a big worry for me is how she would handle the temple. Because I knew how I felt about the temple and that was a secret that I couldn't tell anybody.

Greg Gerritsen [01:09:09] Because I thought I was unique in that. Because nobody had ever told me that they had questions about the temple. And I was just, I was really worried that someone else would have questions like I did. So I tried really hard to prepare her with this might sound really strange, but Satan appears in the temple.

Greg Gerritsen [01:09:39] And at first she's like, what? No, he doesn't. And so, yeah, so I shared all that with her. We chose a day to get married and then we went to my mom and said we chose this day. And she's like, well, I'll have to check with my, my dad to see if that works for his schedule because he's going to marry you guys because

John Dehlin [01:10:06] that's a big deal to have an apostle marry you in the temple.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:10] And I think my in laws really appreciated that too.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Yeah. Oh yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] So from their perspective, their daughter's marrying into the Mormon elite.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:19] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] And not that I'm not saying that's.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:22] Yeah. And my in laws are great. They're most down to earth people.

John Dehlin [01:10:27] They're not climbers, you're saying.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:28] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] But it would be, it would be.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:31] But yeah, it's. I mean, to have to have him marry us, like they thought that was great.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:39] So, yeah, our day got. Basically we worked it around his schedule.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] So he did. So Elder Worthland did marry you and your wife?

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:49] Yeah, yeah. In the Salt Lake Temple.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] Yeah, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:52] So. And, and that was kind of the agreed upon and I guess one perk. So the, the top floor of the Joseph Smith building, they have that restaurant and then they have conference rooms and the general authorities can get those at a discount rate.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:15] So that's where we had a wedding dinner.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] Oh, okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:20] So that, that was one perk. I gotta, I wanna be totally honest. There is, there are some perks and that's. And I.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] You said discount, which means it wasn't free.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:30] Oh no, it's not free.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:32] Still gotta pay.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Yeah. So the church does a pretty decent job of not giving too many perks or benefits to the family members that

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:42] at least not the extended. Maybe the immediate had more perks, but I don't know, like, I mean, you didn't feel. I didn't feel like we were getting things for free. Yeah, I mean they don't charge anyone to go into the conference center, so I didn't feel like we were really getting that many freebies.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] Yeah. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:12:02] So that's good. But I don't know, people, other, other family members might have got more free stuff. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:12:11] So.

John Dehlin [01:12:13] So how did your. So you're married in the temple to your grandpa?

Greg Gerritsen [01:12:17] Yep, we got married in the temple. Tried to. I mean, I was never going to be that orthodox as my parents were with family, home, evening and kneeling down for prayers at dinner. Like, that just wasn't who my wife and I were. We were young college students just trying to get started. I was also trying to start my career as a pilot. And 2008, I graduated from college and we moved up to Juneau, Alaska, and I became a professional pilot up there flying Taurus cargo, everything and anything. And I started to. I started to meet people and started working on Sundays.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] And

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:18] then. Then that winter, my granddad passed away. And as I said the previous episode, that was. That was a big crack in my testimony when my granddad passed away. And not because he passed away, but more so because of how the family was second place to the quorum of the 12. And I had always been taught that family is everything and family is central to the plan. But what I saw was that the quorum of the 12 and the first Presidency were the most important thing. And that was kind of. Another crack. And by that point, we had a child. We had started moving back and forth places, so life was really busy.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Um, can I ask you a few questions?

Greg Gerritsen [01:14:23] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Okay. I'm going to back up to before your granddad passed away, and I'm going to share something that is maybe I don't. May we've talked about this a tiny bit, but it may even be shocking to you to have me talk about it on the air, but it's something I. I learned about totally independent of you. So early, early in the Time of Mormon Stories podcast, someone reached out to me, and I'm not going to really relay anything about this person. They let me know that your.

John Dehlin [01:14:59] Your grandpa had a daughter who was married to a gay man. And that not only did this granddaughter have a really hard time as the daughter of an apostle being married to a gay man, and I'm not going to say who that is. Right. But that your grandpa didn't ever know that. That she was never actually able. According to the person that knew about all this, your, you know, would be your aunt, I'm guessing, was never able to actually tell her dad that she was married to a gay man and he didn't even know. Like, there was something about being the daughter of an apostle where even if you knew that and even if you loved your dad and had a good relationship to him, you were never even able to talk about that. And you can just say, I don't want to talk about that or you can talk about it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:01] But for me, that was one of the very early moments in my Mormon stories history that struck me about how tragic and sad sometimes these dynamics, these leadership dynamics could be because I was trying to imagine how a daughter would feel being married to a gay man in a church that kind of is not pro gay, but never being able to talk to your dad about it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] And then being a, being a dad who loves your daughter and then having her knowing if you could, if he could find out later.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] That his daughter wouldn't even be able to confide in him. Something so sad and important. Like what type of world would be where you couldn't tell your dad something so important. And yet that, that's the impression I got about your granddad's life and family in some way.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:56] Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know where their. They're coming from with that. I'll say this. I. I think my granddad would be very accepting and I think if it was kept from him because my perception was that he knew because

John Dehlin [01:17:26] that he had a gay son in law.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:30] My perception, looking back at things, I, I think he knew. Did you, did you know at the time? I did not know.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Okay. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:38] But I, I really, I think if it was kept from him, it was because of other, other things going on in the family and they didn't want to overload him with information.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:56] But not because he couldn't handle it.

John Dehlin [01:17:59] Sure.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:59] Because I think, I think they wanted to protect him from. Or they, they didn't want themselves to be embarrassed.

John Dehlin [01:18:09] Yeah, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:10] I'm not trying to imply that he couldn't have.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:12] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] He wouldn't have been anything other than loving.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:14] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:15] Just that for some. Whatever reason it wasn't talked about. Maybe.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:19] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:20] And just like you couldn't talk to him about the temple.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:24] Just like, you know, there are other things.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:26] And I think, I think there's, there's more a fear of bringing up subjects because you just feel ashamed yourself.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:37] More so than, more so than you don't want to. You don't want him to know about it. And it's, it's unfortunate because I think it would be really healthy if like, I think he would want to be able to be talked to. And just the, the sad reality of it is that we put such a high pedestal on these figures that we don't feel like we can have normal human experiences with them.

John Dehlin [01:19:11] Yeah. That's what that's.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:13] And, and so that's, that's the danger when we set people up to be what they can't be.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:20] Is they're still human people and we put them up to be these ungodly characters that you just. They're never going to fit that bill.

John Dehlin [01:19:33] Yeah. That just seemed particularly tragic to me. And I'm not trying to out anyone.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:38] I just.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] That's because like. Okay, the reason why I'm partly why I'm asking about this is Prop 8 comes. You know Prop 8 is voted on the year your grandpa dies.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] But it would have meant that in the years leading up to Prop 8 your grandpa would have been in those meetings with First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 members talking about the gay agenda and the gay. The strategy about how to deal with same sex marriage and gay people.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:05] Yeah.

Grandfather's Declining Years and Church Politics

John Dehlin [01:20:06] And I don't know if when you talked about last episode, the clicks and the tension between your grandpa. Do you have a sense for who was in your, in Elder Wirthlin's clique or do you even want to say.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:19] Well, yeah, I mean, I know. Well, so I know he was good friends with Elder Helz. I know he was. I know he got along really well with. Oh man. Sorry. My names are. The names are. Elder Haight was really close with him. When Elder Haight died, Elder Uchtdorf took his, his spot in my granddad's heart. My granddad and Elder Uchtdorf go back to, to his days in Germany in the 70s. And so there's a big connection there. And I know they're kind of kindred spirits with how they see the world so how they think people should be treated.

John Dehlin [01:21:17] All right, so if we're going to, if we're going to create this fictitious kind of. So going after the one love Christ based apostle cohort, we've got Wirthlin Hate Uchtdorf, Elder Hells and Hales as kind of homies in one click. And then we can use our imagination.

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:36] I mean Elder Uchtdorf was after Elder Hate. But yeah. So it was like minded people and my, my granddad and President Monson always got along and. But I mean to be fair to My granddad, basically 2005, 6, 7, 8, I don't know how many meetings he went to.

John Dehlin [01:22:02] So what's it like being an aging apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:06] I mean you're given very menial tasks and you're not. Not much is expected of you. And I mean he would have afternoon naps, he would have like he, he would go to the office. But I really can't say that he was. He was that involved.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] So you talked about what happened when your mom. When your grandma died.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:33] Yeah. So in 2006, when. When my grandma died, every. Every. Every night, there was someone there with him, spending the night with him. Whether it be my uncle or one of my mom's sisters or my mom, someone was there taking care of him because he did have dementia and he needed assistance. And to be fair to my granddad, he probably. He probably needed to be in an assisted living home, but my family was able to step up and take care of him without him needing to go to a place like that.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] But are you saying the church had an interest and showed an interest in kind of managing and controlling his interactions with the outside world?

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:33] I would say 100%.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] Because their fear would be what?

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:37] Well, I mean, they don't want him to see. They don't want people to see the human side of an apostle who's aging. Who's aging and has moments where he's not all there. I mean, even when we got married and my grandma was his constant companion and was helping him, and when he brought in my wife and I to his office to interview us and just to get to know us, and we told him that we were going to get married on July 1, and he kept on calling July 1, June 31. And my grandma kept having to correct him and help him with that. And he had signs, at least from 2005 on, that he had dementia. And so I know that in meetings, they started to kind of have him take a back seat. And that, like, his efforts were the general conference talks. That's where he put his efforts into.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] Twice a year, basically.

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:16] Yeah. And a few public appearances.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] Yeah, that. So for me and my cracks in my testimony. So Ezra Tab Benson is a cousin of mine.

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:31] And he became an apostle. But. But as I was starting to have my intellectual awakening within Mormonism, I learned about his son or grandson who became an apostate, talking openly about how his. His granddad, Ezra Benson, had dementia as. As a prophet and how the church would, like, literally put him in photo ops, you know, put a construction. You know, like the groundbreaking of a temple. Like, put a. Put a construction hat on and put a temple in his, you know, hand, take a photo as if he's vibrant and out and active, being a vibrant prophet of God, when really back home, he's, like, drooling and doesn't even know his name or the name of people around him.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] So a concerted effort to create a fake impression that he was healthy and vibrant and leading the church when he was the equivalent of someone with dementia. And it was well known privately that Thomas S. Monson had dementia several years before he died. But the church did all it could to hide that and create a different impression. So fakeness and deception.

Greg Gerritsen [01:26:39] Well, and as a family member of that, we saw that, and we also saw the health problems of other general authorities. And to me, it was sad that in their last years, the church tries so hard to hide those health problems that even immediate family members are kind of tried. They try to keep them away as much as possible.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] And so, like, grandchildren or children sometimes are distanced from their own grandpa. In your experience?

Greg Gerritsen [01:27:18] In my experience, yeah. So, I mean, you don't get. You don't get those final moments back. And it's when they're trying to protect an image, it's kind of the only way to protect that image is to keep as few people around them as possible.

John Dehlin [01:27:41] That's sad.

Greg Gerritsen [01:27:41] And that's. That's my impression. And that's. You may have people refute that, but that. That's definitely what the appearance is.

John Dehlin [01:27:53] So Gerardo has been kind of tuning in, and he was curious to know maybe how you're. Your grandpa might have felt about Prop 8, whether he would have maybe disagreed about it, whether he. He would have been more pro lgbt, given his piccolo talk.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:08] Right.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Maybe he would have been more pro LGBT than some, you know, Oaks or. Or Bednar or Packer or some of those people.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:18] And honestly, it's all speculation on my part, because in my opinion, I don't think he was even involved in. In any of those discussions.

John Dehlin [01:28:29] Would he have gone to the weekly meetings where he would have voted on things in those final years?

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:35] I don't know if they would have even involved him in that or not, because he went to the office. But in meeting with his secretary,

John Dehlin [01:28:48] one

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:49] of the times that I did make it to his office before he passed away, I saw his schedule, and there was nothing on the schedule, which was not normal for an apostle.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:04] Because, I mean, back 2005, he had a pretty busy schedule.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:11] In 2008, I remember I came home from Alaska before he passed away, and I had to pick up something from his office, and he was asleep in his office, and. And I just asked his secretary, is he busy? And she. She just kind of snickered and it was a. Yeah, he's not busy. So, yeah, I don't think. I don't think he had any involvement. All I can go off of is kind of how he treated people in the family and his prior positions on things. And I really think he would have said it's none of our business and let's just show people love. But that's my. That's more of what I hope. And unfortunately, he's not here to say what really happened. And I don't think we'd ever get a straight answer on who was involved in that.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Did he keep journals and does your family have access to the journals?

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:29] If he did keep journals? We do not have access to those.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] Yeah, I've been told that Mormon apostles are told they're not allowed to keep journals so that they can't be used by historians to actually let posterity know what really happened within the church, and that if they do keep journals, that it's, that it's the Church's property, not the families.

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:53] See, and I, I, it's all speculative because that's something that I would not be privy to. Know.

John Dehlin [01:31:02] Yeah. Oh, Yeah. So let's see. Oh, man. I, I had a question that I was going to ask about that. So. Okay, so it'll come to me in just one second. So, so as far as him pass. Oh. Oh, this is what I was going to say. This, this means that there must be a protocol at church headquarters where those around the apostle make a determination, the point at which an apostle is no longer really viable in his right mind and in his ability to operate. And that at that point of a switch is metaphorically flipped where, where they're like, okay, he's kind of out to pasture.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] There's got to be a put an apostle out to pasture protocol at church headquarters where at some point it's shifted from no longer give them assignments, maybe, no, no longer even invite them to meetings and let's get family on them or watchers on them 24 by 7. Because they've shifted from something of, you know, something of a, of a resource that can do work and, and value can be extracted to something else, which is like putting them out to pasture, retiring them, and then protecting them from any possible embarrassment. So that must exist, given what you've just said.

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:34] I mean, there's got to be a committee or maybe the quorum of the 12, the first presidency, make a decision. I don't know what that process is, but there's got to be some way, there's some decision that's made that we're lightening their load, we're taking their load away because it definitely happens. And I think, I think. It's just part of having such an old geriatric quorum of the twelve and first presidency is when. When the only way to be replaced is dying. Like, there's. You're going to have a very old leading leadership body.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] Yeah, Gerontocracy, as they call it. Yeah, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:34] And. And so at some point, you're going to have two, three, four people that really don't have much faculty left.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] And oddly, they're often. They're. They are. They are the most senior.

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:46] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] So, I mean, I think you've already made this point, but I'll just make it explicit. So my guess is you would prefer that it would be more humane both to the apostle and to the children and grandchildren of the apostle to let them retire or go emeritus in their 70s or 80s, so that not only they can have a humane final set of years, but so that maybe they're. So their children and grandchildren can enjoy them.

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:15] Yeah, I mean, I don't see what harm there would be by having a process like that. I think the church asks so much sacrifice from people and sacrificing family relationships. There's a reason why there's so many family members of general authorities that fall away is because those relationships are completely sacrificed at the expense of having someone give so much of their time. And so the family members have no relationship with that person because that person is traveling the world and at the church office building five, six days a week. Well, five days a week. And then going to state conferences and regional conferences on Saturdays and Sundays. I mean, my granddad would work sometimes. He'd work 28 days in a month. And you don't have time for personal to. You don't have time for family relationships at that point.

John Dehlin [01:35:39] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:40] I mean, how can you. How can you really know how your. Your kids or your grandkids are doing when you're in meetings all day and. And you have no idea what's going on?

John Dehlin [01:35:54] Yeah. That's kind of inhumane.

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:56] So.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] Yeah. Yeah. That's sad. That's sad. And I mean, I guess you can say it's respectable that they were so committed and dedicated that they, in effect, gave their lives.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:10] Church. But also. Did you just say that a lot of children and grandchildren of Mormon apostles, in your experience, have fallen away?

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:19] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] Can you talk. Can you talk about that? I'm not asking you to name names per se, but, like, are you saying you've seen that as being common? Because that's very different than how I started this episode with Mark McConkey bragging that none of the McConkey grandchildren have ever fallen away. That's different than what you're saying. You're saying. I'm saying more than average have fallen away.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:39] I'm saying it's. It's kept on the down low, but when you. When you're on the outside, more people are willing to talk to you that have left, and there's more that leave than you'll know about. But it's definitely a larger percentage than you're led on to believe.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] So they've reached out to you.

Greg Gerritsen [01:37:04] I mean, yeah, I've had.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] We're jumping ahead a little bit.

Greg Gerritsen [01:37:06] Yeah, I've had family members, but also when I tell family members, then some of those family members will say, oh, yeah, well, I've heard about this person and this person as well, and this person. And you're like, oh, okay, there's a lot more than you think.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] And you think some of that is just all. I mean, all these things you're explaining throughout parts one and two about the. The unpleasant, negative parts of being family of an apostle. Do you think those are. So I guess you're saying those are some of the main drivers that lead people out.

Greg Gerritsen [01:37:38] I would. I would say one of the major drivers is the fact that they're asked to sacrifice so much that they end up having to sacrifice a lot of their relationships as well.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:37:53] So much so that when that relationship is what you're judged by and you see that, like, the value of you as an individual is not as great as the value of the church. Like, it's. It's a little. It's a little dehumanizing. And so you start to think, well, what's the most important thing for the church? Is it the image or is it the people? Because it sure doesn't feel like it's the people to a lot of us

John Dehlin [01:38:38] who are on the inside.

Greg Gerritsen [01:38:39] Who are on the inside. Yeah. Because I can tell you, at the funeral, we did not feel like we were the most important people or like the family time was not the important part.

John Dehlin [01:38:54] The important part was.

Greg Gerritsen [01:38:56] Was how the. How the church is viewed. So.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] And the other. Like you said, the other apostles.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:06] Yeah. We got to take care of them first. Then. Then comes the family.

John Dehlin [01:39:13] Yeah. So that leaves a mark on you.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:16] Yeah. I mean, it's. It's. You can't preach families and then do. Do something different and still have the family message come across.

John Dehlin [01:39:28] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:29] Yeah.

Faith Crisis and Losing Belief in the Church

John Dehlin [01:39:30] So let's talk about your faith crisis, because I know you got to get out of here at some point. How much time do you have before you have to leave?

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:39] I could probably wrap it up in about 30 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] No, I don't want you to go. I just, I want to keep you for as long as I can. So you have to leave at what time?

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:46] Oh, we're good.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:48] Okay, so I'll let you know.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Okay, well, I've got a lot of questions, so I got to prioritize. Which one's that? Okay, so. So you're married. So you become a pilot. Your grandpa passes. Grandma. Grandma pass away.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:40:00] Let's talk about how a grandson loses. A grandson of an apostle loses his faith.

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:06] Yeah, so I bounced around through different, through quite a few jobs. Fast forward to 2011. I'm, I'm flying for SkyWest Airlines as a pilot and I start meeting quite a few pilots that have church history questions and doctrinal questions.

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:35] And one of them is going through a divorce. And he's going through a divorce because he's got these questions and his mother in law is irate that he's getting ready to leave the church and she wants his, his wife to leave him. And he just wants answers and nobody in the church is willing to talk to him.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:00] And I'm on a four day trip where it's he and I flying a plane together. The flight deck door closes and it's just he and I flying four to five hours a day together. And he spills his soul to me. He lets me know everything and I'm like, one of the things that my grandad, one of the last pieces of advice he gave me, I was asking him what I should do, what I should tell an employer because I was about to quit. He said, just tell the truth. He said the truth is what we should all be after. He said, value the truth in everything you do.

John Dehlin [01:41:52] That's the Mormonism I grew up in.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:54] And so that's, I mean that stuck with me. And so I said, well, if it's true, we'll find the truth. And I told him, I was like, I'll look at these things. Go ahead and tell me all your concerns. I'll write them down and I'll start researching. And so 2011 I started and I looked at Journal of Discourses, Fair Mormon,

John Dehlin [01:42:21] what were the top five or seven farms? Doubts or questions? You remember

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:27] the number one question he had was, well, he said, just Joseph Smith in general. Did Joseph Smith really have a first vision? Did, did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

John Dehlin [01:42:43] And

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:46] so that's where I started with Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:42:50] And

Greg Gerritsen [01:42:53] I remember reading Lucy Mack Smith's book, which I had to really search for on the Internet, and it was. And that took me down the rabbit hole of Brigham Young, like, banning that book, which led me to so many questions about Brigham Young, which then I got into everything, and that I was looking at only church sources and things that I could find on the. And I hadn't found Mormon stories at that point. And I think it was like six or seven months into it before I found Mormon stories. And I mean, by that point, I had created quite a long list of problems that I had come up with.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] What were some of those?

Greg Gerritsen [01:43:50] Oh, why did Joseph Smith send out married men on missions so he could marry their wives? Why? Let's see. I can't remember the order, but just like, why is there priesthood celebration every May when we don't even know the date and the date, like.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] Of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Greg Gerritsen [01:44:25] Of the Melchizedek priesthood, Yeah. I mean, the Melchizedek priesthood really bothered me. And that was back in 2011. And I asked. I remember asking in Elders Quorum what date it was brought back, and I just got nothing.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] And we just did an episode on this. On Mormon Stories podcast about the priesthood restoration and how it looks like Joseph Smith made up the Aaronic and the Melchizedek priesthood stuff in the. In the John the Baptist and Peter, James and John stuff years after, like up to five or six years after it allegedly happened, and wrote that back into the history later, which is why there's no dates for it when he was being challenged for power by other members of the church. And so if you watch 1 LDS Discussions Mormon stories episode, watch the recent one on the priesthood restoration. Because it's. It's disturbing.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:25] And it was disturbing for you?

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:26] Oh, it was. It was very disturbing to me. And I, like, I would have killed to have the resources that you've put out now back then, because my faith transition would have lasted a lot shorter. A lot shorter.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:41] So. But at the time, I was. I was going through all kinds of documents, and I would be. I did all of this without my wife knowing. I. I was a very silent study guy. I would. I would be in hotels for four days while I was out flying, and that's where I did most of my research.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:09] And I. I would come back and I would. I would talk to. There was a group of pilots that it was pretty much known that these are Mormons, but they're almost former Mormons. And one of them, his name is Charlie, he told Me that the Book Mormon should just be thrown out. So then I started looking at the Book Mormon, and then I had so many questions.

John Dehlin [01:46:42] Pick five.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:43] Just like the lost 116 pages. Why couldn't that have been brought back by an angel? Why couldn't anybody actually see the golden plates? And why did he need to put his head in a hat? And. And to translate. Yeah. And.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] And you're talking about the spiritual eyes that the witnesses seeing the Book of Mormon.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:11] Not with their physical eyes, but with their spiritual eyes.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:13] Right, right. And. And then why. Why are. Why are there no golden plates today? Like, why can't we see them? Why would an angel want those to be taken away if no one else can translate them? What's the purpose of hiding them?

John Dehlin [01:47:33] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:47:34] And just so many questions about, like, why did. If we had scripture, new revelations back then, why don't we have any revelations now in 2022? Right, exactly. I mean, like, the. The time gap between the last revelation and now is so big that it's almost safe to say that there's no revelation now.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] And so unless you redefine revelation to be a general conference talk.

Greg Gerritsen [01:48:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Which is what we do.

Greg Gerritsen [01:48:14] Yeah. But that's like, it was a cop out. And when most conference talks are just the same old, same old version of the gospel, it's really hard to accept that as revelation. And so, yeah, you can have an inspiring message, but is anything really revelatory? And that was. That was the apex of my faith transition, was coming to all those points, and then all those leading to more and more questions. And by 2014, I was fairly confident that the church wasn't true. And by 2017, I was. I was officially done believing.

John Dehlin [01:49:18] And can I just say that over the years, if I had to pick one profession that per capita, I've had the most people reach out to me as having lost their faith, it would be pilots like my friend Dan, my friend Rex, my friend Calder. Just walking through the Salt Lake airport. I can't tell you how many times a pilot just randomly stops me and says, john, thanks so much for warming stories. There is something. And I've asked a few of them, why are so many pilots ex Mormons? And it's like, well, we've got hours and hours in a quiet cockpit. It's either lots of time to listen to podcasts, because what else can you do? You can't watch, Right? Exactly. So you listen to podcasts or you talk to other pilots.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] And so. So, like, you know, ex Mormon pilots, like, you know, I'm calling you out. There's a lot of you and I've met a lot of you and a shout out to you and it's a thing.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:19] I know quite a few.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:22] And it's a growing number as well.

John Dehlin [01:50:25] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:28] But I mean, you have so much time to study things. When you get into a hotel, you don't have the distractions of taking kids places. You only have so much time when you're at home and you've got other responsibilities.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:50] But when you're in a hotel and you've got free time, that's when I did my research and that's when I got to know what Mormons actually believe and what. What I believe. And I learned that it's okay to not know.

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:07] And that was the most freeing thing to come to a determination was, I don't know and that's okay. You don't have to know everything. And it was. It was really exciting. But at the same time, my. My family has been so orthodox for so long, and my wife and her family have been so orthodox.

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:40] I would say they're accepting, but also having the interaction with my fellow pilot that went through a divorce because he questioned. I was very cautious to bring it up with my wife. And so I didn't let her on to me questioning until at least 2014, 15.

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:06] And by this point she had realized that I had stopped doing family home evenings. I had stopped taking the lead on most things. And so she knew something was up. But she also allowed me to be who I was and not.

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:28] She didn't question me and she trusted that I was fine. And so she kind of just let me be whatever I needed to be. And finally. This is going to sound crazy, but 10 years after I started questioning, she said, all right, I'm ready to hear what you have to say.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] So is this last year?

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:55] Last year?

John Dehlin [01:52:56] Is this 2021?

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:57] 2021. I was set to go up to Alaska with one of my sons the next morning. And she. We spend up. We spent almost the whole night going through all of the church issues, and my son that was going to Alaska with me heard everything.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:24] And so as soon as he and I got up to Alaska, he said to me, he said, I heard what you and mom were talking about, and I've got some questions I want to ask you about the church.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:39] And he said, I've always thought that agency is a weird thing when the church doesn't give you agency on a lot of things. And to me, it was like a wow. I'M so glad my. My son is thinking and seeing for himself because this is going to make it so much easier.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:05] And like, since that time, like, my wife is still going through her faith journey. I don't want to say it's a crisis because it's such a great thing to come out from. And she. She isn't quite ready to tell her family, but she is.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:30] She is getting so close to getting to that stage, and it's been so validating and exciting to see that she's come through this on her own choosing as well as with me just being patient with her. I'm glad that I did not force it upon her and put down, like, an ultimatum to her, because it's made our relationship better knowing that I went through it when it was right for me and she's gone through it when it's right for her. And through that in between stage, she really respected me, and I respected her enough that it never became an issue in our marriage.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] And that's a miracle. And it's very rare. Yeah, sure. You know that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:31] I do know that.

John Dehlin [01:55:32] I just want to call out something very significant. So. So there's, you know, it's generally known that the church is hemorrhaging its members in 2022. That.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:47] Of the 16 million members that the church claims, maybe 4 or 5 million are active and still identify as Mormon. Maybe it's more, but it's low. It's like a third of the members by this point are active and still identify. So there's a massive apostasy going on.

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] That. So we could look around us and we know all sorts of people who have left the church. What sometimes we don't talk about is how many people lost their faith, but just stay in the church and don't tell anyone.

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:56:18] That's probably bigger than the number of people who have left. And I just want to. I just want to highlight the fact that you went 10 years basically either having serious doubts about the church or completely not believing in the church. And you were not only not wanting or able to talk to your own wife about the details of that, but like, everybody. Everybody around you didn't know either, or most people around you had no idea.

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:46] Right.

John Dehlin [01:56:46] And I just want people to think about the fact, like, we're going back to Mark McConkey in his, like, and he's a good guy, but his brag that none of the McConkey grandchildren ever lost their faith. Like, how many. What percentage of people who are perceived as active Mormons are Really closet nonbelievers, but are absolutely terrified or petrified to ever tell anyone.

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:12] And so they're just suffering in silence.

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:15] And a lot of it is because of the negative culture of the church of if you leave, your relationships are permanently damaged, your, your ability to make money might be damaged, your friendships might be lost, and I mean, just every, every aspect of your life could be changed forever from it. And it took me, I told my brother in 2017 that I was ready to tell my family, but I decided to wait because of things that my family said. And I waited till 2021 to tell my parents. And when I told my parents, it changed our relationship and it.

Telling Family and Navigating Relationships After Leaving

John Dehlin [01:58:18] Your parents have had callings, pretty significant callings. Is it okay to say or do you not want to talk about that?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:23] Yeah, I mean, it is. Stake presidency, Bishopric mission. Yeah, they're on a mission right now actually in Italy.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] Okay. And so has he been a mission president, your dad?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:34] No.

John Dehlin [01:58:34] Okay. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:35] No.

John Dehlin [01:58:35] So, but, but super devout still?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:38] Oh yeah, very devout.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] And so when you decided you're afraid to tell them?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:42] Well, I was hoping I could just let them pass away before.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] You would have almost preferred them die?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:50] I would prefer that because I knew, I knew the reaction. I knew they would feel that I had died spiritually. And that's almost word for word, but what one of my parents told my siblings.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] So they. About you?

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:12] About me.

John Dehlin [01:59:13] Do you want to just restate that?

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:16] Basically, I told my parents that I no longer believed last year. Last year. And after I told them, one of my parents told a sibling of mine that it's easier, it's easier to have someone die physically than die spiritually.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:43] And you know, I mean, what's hurtful to me about that is I don't think, I don't think my kids would think that it's easier for me to die, easier for them to have me dead physically than spiritually. And so I, I took issue with that and I let my siblings know, like if that's how they feel, then until they change their viewpoint, I don't know. I don't know if I can have a good relationship with them for a while.

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:30] And I mean, we just haven't. Since I've told them, I haven't been able to have a deep conversation with them. They've never tried to, they've never tried to see where I'm coming from. It's kind of a one sided thing where we, it's okay for them to talk about the church and try to be bringing me back into it. But I can't bring up anything. And so, like, even, even their mission farewell was a chance for them to preach to me.

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:13] And so things like that when you, when you decide to tell people, you do need to be prepared that relationships can be altered permanently, or at least for a long time. And so with that reaction, it took me a little longer to let all of my siblings know.

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:42] And just a couple months ago, I let all of my siblings know because I was like, well, I've got to have that burden off my chest. I just need to be honest with everybody. And so how'd that go?

Greg Gerritsen [02:02:04] You know, went okay. I've heard from other people that they've talked to that they've got issues with it. But, you know, I mean, I've got three siblings that I've got a lot of trust and really good relationships with that. I know, I know we're in a great place. And the other three, I think will get to that place. So.

John Dehlin [02:02:39] So many things I want to either highlight or ask. So as far as your mom's treatment of you, not to pick on your mom, but like, you're. I get why your dad would make you feel like he would rather you be dead than. Than have lost your faith. In a sense, yeah. But your mom was Joseph B. Wirthlin's daughter, right? Joseph B. Worthlin gave that talk about the piccolo and the orchestra and how we need everyone. Your grandpa, your mom's dad was the one that was about unconditional love and going after the one, so. And I know you love your mom and I know your mom's a good woman, but I'm trying to, like, connect the dots of how she's not emulating her own dad in how she treats you.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:25] And part of her problem right now, she's on a mission. And all of the communication I have with her is with my dad on the same line because they're always together. And so it's a really hard thing to have a private conversation with her.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] So you can't have a one on one talk with your mom right now.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:50] That's kind of how it feels right now. And it's a very interesting family dynamic. I look forward to the time that I can take my mom to dinner and have a conversation with her because there's a lot of unpacking that I want to do with her, and we just haven't had that moment yet. So to be fair to her, I would love to have a conversation with her in private. And she is a wonderful woman, like, amazing. And I. I Don't want. I think the culture of this is really hard on people that are very devout. And also, I mean, you're. You're drilled. This is where. This is where I feel like it's okay to call it a culture is because you're pretty much brainwashed to believe that when you leave the gospel, you are a son of perdition. You are denying the testimony.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] And

Greg Gerritsen [02:05:16] that is where a lot of this negative reaction comes from. And it's not because they don't value me as a person. It's because what the institution teaches them about people that leave and the threat that people leave are to others testimonies. And I think that's the reaction, and that's more on the institutions and the. The teaching of the institution, then on, of course, the family members.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] Yeah. Two other questions that come to immediate mind. So I'm just remembering now how you felt during your grandfather's funeral, how the church came before family. Fast forwarding to now where you lose your faith and you kind of feel estranged from your own parents because of the church. It feels like that's just reinforcing those feelings you had earlier.

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:23] Oh, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:06:24] That. Again, the. The church trumps family. In a church that claims to be all about family, that must be a rub for you.

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:31] It's. It's 100%. The reality I see is that we preach family, but in the end, it's only family if we all believe the same way. And the moment you step outside of that belief, you. You are no longer in the inner circle of the family, and you are a threat to the rest of the family. And that's. I mean, there's still love there. There's still really nice things said, but the actions don't always match the words.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:25] And the teachings of the church stand out to, like, now it's easy to see that. And I've been pretty open with. We have five kids, and I've been really open with my five kids. And it's pretty safe to say for me that none of my five kids will ever serve missions or be orthodox members unless they fall in love with

John Dehlin [02:07:56] a girl, a cute girl or boy who's a faithful Mormon and believer. I'm kidding.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:01] Yeah. But in talking with all of them, they are coming to their own conclusions. And they've had both the orthodox teachings, and then I've presented them with a lot of Mormon stories programs, and I thank you for that because what you've given us as a family has allowed me to teach them both sides of the story.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:34] And it's given them the true power to choose because, I mean, there's so many kids that have been set up in this system, and before they know it, they're on a mission and they've never been exposed to reality, and they get to a point where they've made decisions that they would never have made if they knew the full story.

Greg Gerritsen [02:09:08] And I'm so grateful that my kids have the ability to make that choice now, because I didn't have that and most of us didn't have that. But now with all the resources we have, there's no reason why people can't be informed now.

John Dehlin [02:09:33] Beautiful. Beautifully said. I'm dying to know which Mormon stories episodes you've played for your children, if you even remember. Like, I'm geeking out on Mormon stories right now, just wanting to know which ones you would choose.

Greg Gerritsen [02:09:47] Well, Hans Mattson is one of my favorite.

John Dehlin [02:09:50] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:09:53] I felt such a connection to that story. That one. That one was. I remember plowing our garden on the tractor, listening to that story, and I must have gone over our garden. We have an acre garden that I was plowing with a rototiller with my tractor. And I must have gone over that garden about 10 or 11 times, and my wife was just waving at me like, you're done. But I was just so encaptured with that. With that episode

John Dehlin [02:10:39] that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:10:41] That did so much for me. And I was that.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] Do you know if that was the original one or is that the one when I went back and interviewed them later?

Greg Gerritsen [02:10:50] That was the original one.

John Dehlin [02:10:52] Okay. Okay. Audio. Audio only.

Greg Gerritsen [02:10:54] Yeah. Audio only. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:57] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:10:58] There's. There's been a lot. I've. A lot of the LDS discussions recently. I've showed my kids, and that's been really great, just to help them understand each topic. I did show them the south park episode, and they had a. It's funny because they'll go to church and I'll be flying, and I just get a text, dum, dum, dummy. And I know exactly what they're talking about. Someone is teaching either about Joseph Smith or about some gospel topic, and they're just saying, this is outrageous. And so it's really fun for me to have that interaction with my kids, knowing that they are able to see things for themselves, and they're getting the cultural side of Mormon that they like, but they're starting to want to separate themselves from the church side. And as that happens, I think it'll be easy, really easy for my wife to open up to her family.

John Dehlin [02:12:23] Yeah. And really quickly it's hard to open up and come out as a nonbeliever. Just generally within Mormonism. I'm just going to assume that it's harder to do that when you're the grandson of an apostle. True. Not true.

Greg Gerritsen [02:12:39] It took me 10 years. So I, I mean, if I have no idea how it would have been for me with my granddad here.

John Dehlin [02:12:54] Yeah. Would you ever come out if your grandpa was still alive?

Greg Gerritsen [02:12:58] That's a great question.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] What's your guess?

Greg Gerritsen [02:13:01] I guess that because I took his truth advice to heart, I would tell him, and because he valued honesty so much that he was able to bring out honesty in others. And I think that's because he was a genuinely good person that believed what he said, that I think he would have been okay with it too.

John Dehlin [02:13:34] But just like your aunt didn't want to tell him that she had a gay husband, I could also imagine you not wanting to either burden him or you not wanting to disappoint him.

Greg Gerritsen [02:13:46] Yeah, I could see that. But I also looking back at our interactions and knowing that I had inactive family members when he was alive and he still treated them with love, that I don't think I would have been intimidated by him because he did care about everyone.

John Dehlin [02:14:12] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:14:12] And it wouldn't have changed how he treated us.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] That's great. So what a great man.

Greg Gerritsen [02:14:20] So I, I, I truly believe that he did care more about individuals. Yeah.

Lightning Round and Reflections on Apostolic Leadership

John Dehlin [02:14:27] Well, I, I have a, I wanted to do a quick lightning round of some questions. Tell me how many minutes I have.

Greg Gerritsen [02:14:35] About, about, I don't know, say 10, 15 minutes.

John Dehlin [02:14:40] Okay, we're gonna do a lightning round. Is that okay?

Greg Gerritsen [02:14:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:43] Okay. So one, one thing that I, in a way, it's just, this isn't even a question, it's more of an observation. Nowadays, most Mormon general authorities and apostles seem to be either lawyers or business, you know, kind of wealthy business executives. And then there's some doctors and then kind of some church educators. Yeah, your, your grandpa seems to stand out because he was a butcher. Like there aren't a lot of people that now rise to those ranks.

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:15:17] Just had more common, everyday middle class kind of jobs. Is that your experience? That, that's rare, I think, you know.

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:27] So President Faust, I remember he and my granddad talking about finances at one get together and President Faust was talking about how he needed to get his shoes repaired because he couldn't afford to replace his shoes

John Dehlin [02:15:51] as an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:53] Yeah. He was in the first presidency at the time.

John Dehlin [02:15:54] Oh, wow.

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:56] And I don't know his story, but I just remember looking down at his shoes and seeing that he had pretty old shoes on. And at the time, this was mid-90s, I think, around 95, 96. And my granddad just joked. He's like, if I would. If I was a good businessman, I would have sold 10 years later. So, you know, I just. I just think business wise, like. Or money wise, not all of them fit that mold. Yeah, I don't think.

John Dehlin [02:16:43] Or they didn't back then.

Greg Gerritsen [02:16:44] Or they didn't back then. I think. I think the church changes, and I think the church has changed a lot from the 1980s to the 2000s. And I don't think my granddad would be an apostle if he was around now.

John Dehlin [02:17:01] He wouldn't have been chosen as an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:03] Right.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] Do you think he was chosen in part because he knew Russell and Nelson and he knew Gordon B. Hinckley. They were family. Like, is there. Do you think there's nepotism that goes on in terms of the selection of Mormon apostles or general authorities?

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:19] That's a great question, and it's purely speculative on my part, and I have my guesses. I believe that there is. It's definitely easier to take a known commodity than an unknown commodity. And so if you have two people that you're thinking of and someone is related to this person, and you also have experience working with that same person, and you don't know this other person, it's generally acceptable that you would choose a person that you know, whether it be for any kind of job or calling. So I would say, if I had to guess, that definitely played a role into how he got called. Mm.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything else you want to say about, like, do you know anything about disagreements or fights or contention within the quorum of the 12 that you would have had exposure to?

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:45] Well, just the. The one story that I showed with when I was at my.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:51] That. That's the only personal. Like.

John Dehlin [02:18:54] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:55] I mean, I. I had heard. I've heard things from my mom about interactions with various ones. It was. To me, it was a pretty poorly kept secret that my granddad and present Packer didn't see eye to eye on a lot of topics. Now, other cousins might not have had that perception, but in talking with my mom as I was growing up, that was. That was definitely a perception that I had.

John Dehlin [02:19:44] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:45] So

John Dehlin [02:19:48] someday, I mean, since the journals weren't kept. Allowed to be kept, we won't really know, but it would be so fun for historian to be able to go back into the 1980s and 90s.

Greg Gerritsen [02:20:00] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] And study the tensions in the quorum between the quorum members.

Greg Gerritsen [02:20:06] Well, and also one thing that. One thing that I've been thinking about as. As I've been getting ready for this is that I really feel that there's apostles that are in the know on everything, and then there's apostles that are like kind of the grunt apostles, if you know what I mean. Like, they're given. They're given a lot of assignments and they're more of like the hands on. They're going to be in charge of the missionary department. They're going to do this, this and that, and they're not going to be hands on. On the big stuff, but they're going to be briefed on things and given a very watered down version of things, but they're kept busy with other things.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] I'm guessing Uchtdorf is in that status right now. Right.

Greg Gerritsen [02:21:07] That's my same guess. But. And I take that guess from the things that my granddad was. Was in charge of. Like he was in charge of the hall, the Polynesian Culture center in Hawaii. He was, he was over the, like, he was given very busy tasks that kept him out of a lot of things. And so it would be very. I mean, there are so many things at running a church that could keep someone extremely busy. So they would never have the time to look into things.

John Dehlin [02:21:55] So they would have assignments. Oh, I mean, assignments to keep them out of the way and to keep them busy. I remember also hearing that Richard G. Scott was kind of put in the penalty box because when his wife died, he refused to get married again.

Greg Gerritsen [02:22:10] Yeah. And.

John Dehlin [02:22:11] And there were a lot of brethren who were mad at him for that. And so he was kind of punished.

Greg Gerritsen [02:22:15] Oh, my. My granddad saw eye to eye with Ellis Scott and they were, they were pretty good friends. And Elder Scott was really good to our family. He always made a point to come and talk to us. And I have nothing but fond memories of him because he was so nice to us. Yeah. And I know my granddad, he said plenty of times that he would never remarry, that he could never replace his. And my grandma's name is Elisa. And he said I could never replace my Elisa and just there was no thought of him ever remarrying.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] And that's different than Nelson and Oakes, who have both remarried.

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:10] Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] And happily, it seems like they were happy, excited.

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:13] And you have 15 people, you're going to have 15 different personalities. And. And it's just he was. He was wired differently than some of them.

John Dehlin [02:23:25] Yeah. Okay. One of the hugest questions ever asked, and you've probably already partly addressed this, but it's like, do they really. Do the apostles really believe, first of all, do they know the problematic history? And I, it sounds like you may not even. Because you learned about this stuff after he had passed away. So do you have any idea whether your grandpa would have known the problematic history at all?

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:49] I wish I knew that answer. I, I would, I would give a lot to know the answer. I, I mean, that's, that's been the hundred million dollar question for me. I mean, I've, I've laid. I've spent a lot of sleepless nights thinking about that.

John Dehlin [02:24:08] I mean, technically you could ask your mom, she might have more of an idea, but then she's a believer, so you couldn't have that conversation.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:15] Right. I mean, I, it's, it's a, it's a really tough thing. I mean, I, I have gone back and forth on this question. I mean, I can't even tell you how much time I've spent on that question.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] Do you remember what year he was made an apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:34] 1986.

John Dehlin [02:24:36] Okay, so that would have been. Okay, so that would have been when Sunstone and Dialogue were really getting prominence. He would have been an apostle during the September 6th excommunications. Yeah, he would have been a general authority around the time of Mark Hoffman. So, I mean, there's a lot of really big church events that would have called his attention.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:57] I've gone through it all. Yeah, I have. I mean, back when I started questioning, I looked at almost everything. I went through every talk of my granddads to see if I could. It's to see if I could decipher things. I still have not come to a conclusion one way or the other. I, I am really glad that he focused more on Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:25:32] Yeah,

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:34] I, I don't know. I do want to say if, if anybody has had experiences with him that like, that have been negative, I apologize. I really don't think in his heart of hearts he would ever do something to negatively affect someone. But I think he was a genuine believer. I really, I really think he was genuine. Now.

John Dehlin [02:26:14] He was. He wasn't perpetrating a fraud consciously. In your, your opinion?

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:19] In my opinion. That's what I hope.

John Dehlin [02:26:21] Yeah,

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:24] that's what I have to hope because I have still the utmost respect for him now. I do recognize that there is a possibility that he knew there were issues and he knew there were problems. I also think he might have recognized them too late into the process, and he was trying to promote change from within. And sent. And that's why some of his talks at the end were so focused on changing people and changing their hearts. So that's.

John Dehlin [02:27:10] And being inclusive and loving everyone.

Greg Gerritsen [02:27:12] Right.

John Dehlin [02:27:13] Everyone having a role. Right.

Greg Gerritsen [02:27:14] Yeah. And he focused more on the last three years of his life. There was very little talk about standard Mormon doctrine and more so on changing your heart and doing what can be done to be more Christlike. And so that's kind of what I hold my hopes on, is that he was trying to change from within.

John Dehlin [02:27:50] Yeah. It's a bummer. It's a bummer. He's not around for you to ask him questions now.

Greg Gerritsen [02:27:54] Right, Right. But, you know, that's. It's what it is.

John Dehlin [02:27:57] Yeah. Did. Did. Do you ever remember LGBT issues coming up with him? Him knowing a gay person talking about LGBT issues? Did that even ever come up?

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:12] No. Okay. Well, I mean, that you're aware of. I know it came up in the family, but it was all about. It wasn't a big. Like. It wasn't. There was. I never heard anything about condemning, so, I mean, it was never. It was never like a big conversation.

John Dehlin [02:28:50] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:50] So I don't know. I.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] You would never have heard him say homophobic things or disparaging things?

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:55] Oh, never. No.

John Dehlin [02:28:57] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:57] No, it's good. Not. Not a chance.

John Dehlin [02:29:00] Okay. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:29:03] And I mean, same. Same thing for racist remarks. Like, I mean, he grew up in a very different world than it is now, but he was very accepting and very, like, he was very good to people, and I never heard anything disparaging from him.

John Dehlin [02:29:30] That's great. Okay, here's a hard question. Number one, if you were to ask him, if you could have gone back and asked him whether he'd seen Jesus, a, what would he have said? And B, do you think he did see Jesus?

Greg Gerritsen [02:29:46] I think he would have been honest with that question to me, because I think he would have said no. I just have personal experiences with how I feel, and I think that's what. One of the things that we looked at after he passed away was his scriptures. And he had marked in his scriptures everything that Jesus said, and he had. He had underlined, like, all of Jesus's words in. In the Bible. And to me, like, that was what he lived by, because that was the most important thing in his mind is Jesus's own words.

John Dehlin [02:30:43] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [02:30:45] So to me, I think it's almost

John Dehlin [02:30:50] like I'm a Christian being held captive by the Mormons. Help. Help, Help. Yeah. I mean, that's the Jefferson Bible. The Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson went through and created a Bible of just Jesus's words and, like, none of the miracles, basically.

Greg Gerritsen [02:31:04] Yeah. And, you know, that's. That's the kind of family discussions we had, was focus on those. That's what life eternal means to him. That was one of the lessons that I remember from him, was when he told us that now someone else might have taken something else from his discussion to us, but that's what stuck out to me.

John Dehlin [02:31:42] Yeah. Beautiful. Any information about the second anointing that you know or can share about him or your parents or aunts and uncles?

Greg Gerritsen [02:31:54] I only heard about the second anointing from your Tom Phillips interview.

John Dehlin [02:31:59] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:32:00] So I had no clue about that. I've only learned about that post Mormon life for me, so I would be surprised if my parents have had that because I've had no. No inclination that they ever were part of anything like that.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:32:28] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] Okay. All right, so I don't want to keep you from your family. So let me just ask you this. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn't, or any other final stories you want to share that you haven't had a chance to share about you, your life, your grandparents, any of it?

Greg Gerritsen [02:32:51] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] Or any final words you want to share? Like, I could imagine apostles at church headquarters or leaders of church headquarters or even orthodox family members of yours, maybe aunts and uncles saying, man, I'm really disappointed in Greg. How could he betray the family? Right. How could he betray the church? You kind of talked about this at the beginning about your intentions.

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:15] What would you say to anyone who would just feel disappointed in you for even coming on Mormon stories and speaking up?

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:24] You know, the. The thing I would say to anyone that has a problem with this is. I worked really hard to fit in the system and to respect the system, and I think our family has given quite a bit to the church in. In sacrificing things for the church. I mean, one final story. This will kind of illustrate the point as to what the church meant. And as a kid growing up, like, We would miss out on. On quite a bit to attend church things. And one Christmas, I think I was 14 years old, I was pretty sick that Christmas morning. And my granddad was speaking at the mtc, and

John Dehlin [02:34:39] he

Greg Gerritsen [02:34:42] was speaking at the mtc, and then they were going to have dinner for my family at the mtc, and I was so sick, Like, I could barely walk that. That morning. And my dad was really upset that I would fake like I'm Sick to get out of going because he thought I was just being a teenage boy that didn't want to go.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:04] And he ended up. Long story short, he, he left me home. I was home all alone. And it was 1997, so there weren't quite cell phones and my eardrum popped. I had such a bad ear infection that it popped and there was blood and pus everywhere.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:31] And I had no one to call. No one. My family was at least two hours away and they left at 8 in the morning. And when they got back at 10pm that night, I was just. My fever was so bad I felt like I was going to die.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:58] And my mom just felt crushed that they, that they were at church when she should have been at home with me on Christmas. And I couldn't hear out of my ear. I had a terrible infection and she was, she was taking me to the hospital Christmas night because they didn't take care of me during the day.

Greg Gerritsen [02:36:28] And my, my message to people that are upset with me coming on here and telling the story is like, at what point can people be authentic and tell experiences and not have the church try to police everything you say?

Greg Gerritsen [02:36:52] I mean, we, we're taught to be honest in our dealing with all of our fellow men, and yet we can't be honest with ourselves. And we can't question and we can't talk about questions. And when we do talk about questions, then we're threatened and we're punished and we're told that we need to look at more faithful and reliable sources.

Greg Gerritsen [02:37:23] And when we can't find those faithful and reliable sources to answer questions, then we're told that we just shouldn't question. And at some point we have to speak up and say, no, this is wrong. You need to question.

Greg Gerritsen [02:37:43] You need to have the ability to talk. And it's okay to speak out and it's okay to realize the system is broken and it can't be protected anymore. And no matter what kind of legacy is left, I would love for my grandad to have a great legacy.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:04] But what's more important is for people to understand that the church that he was a part of is not the true church. It's. There may not be a true church, but what matters is that let's not prop up something that is false. Let's not keep an institution on a high pedestal when it doesn't deserve that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:30] And that's why I'm here. It's because we need more voices shedding light on the problem. And the problem isn't you. And I Having this discussion. The problem is them trying to prevent us from that discussion.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] So you. So what I take from that, number one, is that you don't believe the church is true, which is obvious from the story we just heard. But also you feel like the church is. The Mormon Church is doing a lot of harm.

Greg Gerritsen [02:39:06] Yeah, I think the evidence is overwhelming. I mean, I look at my kids and I see the pressure that they're put in just to fit in the box when they see the issues and they see, well, I'm not going to do that. But yet they, the church leaders still try to push them to talk in church, to do things, and they try to take away the agency to do that, and it only drives them closer to me and further away from the church. And then by them pushing them closer to me, it frustrates the leaders more and more. And it makes. Makes them say hurtful things to the kids, which.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] About you?

Greg Gerritsen [02:40:02] No, well, about me. But as well, it makes. It makes the leaders say things to the kids about. Well, you're not, you're not turning out that great.

John Dehlin [02:40:15] That's how you were. Those messages. Those are the messages you were sent when you were a teen.

Greg Gerritsen [02:40:19] Right. Fortunately, I'm able to talk with my kids and they don't take much stock into what these leaders are saying because they understand where they're coming from. And so my kids are able to handle it in a healthy way, and they just let it roll off their backs and they just kind of laugh it off.

Greg Gerritsen [02:40:41] But, like, there's other kids that are being told these same messages and they're not, they're not given the resources to let it roll off their backs, and it can damage people. And you know more than anyone how many people's lives are damaged by this kind of behavior.

Greg Gerritsen [02:41:07] And it's got to stop. It. It's, there's, there's a need for people to stand up. And I remember an episode, I can't remember what episode it was, but you were talking about how there's plenty of general authority family members that talk to you but aren't willing to come on.

Speaking Out, Grief, and Closing Thoughts

Greg Gerritsen [02:41:36] And I was listening to that, and I was agreeing with everything that you were saying. And then it hit me. I was like, well, if I'm not really willing to talk, I'm not willing to be part of the solution.

Greg Gerritsen [02:41:57] And that's ultimately why I decided to come on, is because if I'm not willing to stand up and say, here's my voice too, I'm willing to shed light on it as well, then I'm as complicit in covering up the problems as anyone else. So that's ultimately why I decided to reach out.

John Dehlin [02:42:31] I have to admit that when I said that, I thought, I wonder if there's someone out there listening who might hear this. This. I mean, that's how I think. I mean, that's because Mormons respect authority. Let's. Let's face it, the core principle of Mormonism in 2022 is authority.

Greg Gerritsen [02:42:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:51] It's more than just more than Jesus.

Greg Gerritsen [02:42:54] That's all that is left.

John Dehlin [02:42:56] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:42:56] Because if you don't have authority, there's no church.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] Yeah. And so if the family members of those in authority or those in authority don't speak out.

Greg Gerritsen [02:43:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:10] You know, and, you know, we always get this as like, do you think Uchtdorf will ever apostatize? Do you think. You know, there's always this, like, will one of them ever defect? Kind of thing.

Greg Gerritsen [02:43:19] And I don't think that's ever going to happen. And there's many reasons for thinking that way. But I think what's more likely is for family members of general authorities to help change those leaders. And they're more willing to listen to a family member that has these issues than someone they have never met that writes a letter, because it's just not personal. But when they have a personal relationship with someone that's going through this, it does grab their attention. And that's just the human side of it. And unfortunately, all 15 people are very human. And they. I used to believe that they. They had extra help, but now I really believe they're doing the best they can with what they have. And some of them are more entrenched in it than others. And some of them are trying to change the others to be not as rigid and. Damaging as others.

John Dehlin [02:44:43] Because you hear that. You hear that Even today, in 2022, with things like the LGBT stuff, there's apostles that are, like, gung ho, anti lgbt, like, let's just say Packer or Oaks or maybe Bednar. And then you hear that there might be other apostles that are more.

Greg Gerritsen [02:44:59] You're right.

John Dehlin [02:45:00] LGBT friendly, like maybe Christopherson or maybe Holland or maybe some of the others. And. And that there's dissension in the quorum today that would just make perfect sense as just humans.

Greg Gerritsen [02:45:11] Right.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] Right.

Greg Gerritsen [02:45:12] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:13] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:45:13] I mean, it's just an Uchtorff.

John Dehlin [02:45:15] I should mention Uchtdorf.

Greg Gerritsen [02:45:16] Yeah. I mean, there are great people.

John Dehlin [02:45:20] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:45:20] And. And I think it's pretty easy to. I think you probably could tell who was that apostle that I mentioned. And Yeah. I mean there's. I try not to. I don't want to call out anyone by name. But there's good and bad in every organization and I'll just leave it at that.

John Dehlin [02:45:47] I just googled what year was Elder Bednar made an apostle and it was 2004. Four years before your dad passed. But I'm not putting you on the spot. Yeah. And you know, my brother knows Bednar and says in many ways he's a great guy. Like a really kind hearted. I'll just say this. My brother Joel has interacted with all these guys, including your, Your dad, your grandpa and your Uncle Joe and one of Joe's sons. And. But my brother said even Packer could be really kind and really compassionate. So these. We make caricatures.

Greg Gerritsen [02:46:22] Right.

John Dehlin [02:46:22] Good or bad.

Greg Gerritsen [02:46:23] Right.

John Dehlin [02:46:23] Of these men.

Greg Gerritsen [02:46:25] Well, and. Right. And that. And I've had it. I've had a hard time because I know one of other packers family members and I have a great relationship with them and he feels the same way about President Packer as I do about my granddad. And yet there's that tension that I felt from my granddad with President Packer

John Dehlin [02:46:51] that

Greg Gerritsen [02:46:54] I feel bad that that was there. But I also, I also feel. I mean, part of me feels defensive for my, My grand, My granddad.

John Dehlin [02:47:09] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:47:09] And so I know there's lots of people that can take this with a grain of salt that I'm trying to protect my grandfather.

John Dehlin [02:47:18] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:47:19] And I recognize that a lot. A lot of things that we perceive are with eyes that those that we love, we want to protect.

John Dehlin [02:47:32] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:47:34] And I've, I've gone through. I've wrestled with that a lot because I've also left the church. And I feel. I feel like I've gone through the five stages of grief with the church. And I mean, it's taken me 10 years to process things and it's been 11 years since I started. And I'm now to this point where I feel like I have got closure. But I mean, it's a process. And those 11 years, I've had to. I've had to process things with how I view my granddad and how I can reconcile all that.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] One thing that I wish on your behalf, as someone who has made so many sacrifices from a family perspective for the church, as a family member, an apostle, I wish that, that your grandpa had some best friend who he. Other than your grandma who's passed away, who was still alive. Like maybe someone who's still in the quorum that was Actually, really close to your granddad. And that. That apostle or whoever would. You could go to them and say, hey, I didn't get to know my grandpa as well as I could have. Can you tell me stories about him or things that I don't know or things. Details about things he cared about or thought about or deeper things?

Greg Gerritsen [02:49:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:19] As just a show of respect and honor for the sacrifices you and your family made. Wouldn't that be great if they could fill in some of those gaps for you?

Greg Gerritsen [02:49:29] Yeah. Although instead of that, I would rather have them spend that time with their grandkids. What's done is done on my part, and I've been able to get a lot of good stories. I mean, I do have, like, I can show my kids, my granddad talking in general conference and even leaving the church. I still like his messages. And so there are some good things that I have with him. But rather than dwelling on what I missed out, I would want those guys to spend more time with their kids and their grandkids because you're missing out on things that you can never get back and they will miss. And, I mean, if your grandson or granddaughter has an event, go to it. Miss something for the church. Do something with your family. You won't get that time back.

John Dehlin [02:50:44] Yeah. That's powerful. And Mormon church, consider just allowing these men to be emeritus at a certain point, just to time out and to enjoy their final years. Be humane.

Greg Gerritsen [02:50:58] Yeah. Allow them to be. If family is truly everything, allow them to be family members.

John Dehlin [02:51:09] Yeah. Yeah. That's so powerful. Well, Greg Garrettson, I have just loved every minute we've rung and squeezed every single possible minute out of your. Your time here from the time you arrived until now. And I always end with like a thousand questions still that I want to ask, but I think we covered. I think we covered pretty much most of it. So I thank you. What a wonderful time today. But mostly thank you for your courage because it's hard to come on Mormon stories ever.

John Dehlin [02:51:40] It's got to be a little harder to come on as part of the Mormon royalty kind of, you know, culture. And you'll probably have maybe a little bit more adversity or reaction than maybe a lot of other people would. And so for all that, thank you for speaking up, for being honest, and for helping shed light that I know it's going to reach and help a lot of people. Thank you.

Greg Gerritsen [02:52:09] Well, thank you. And thank you for this platform, because it's. My journey would not have been as easy without you and the resources that You've given the world. And so I don't feel like I've done anything that's big, that's noteworthy. I'm just a small, small fish in the pond. And I just want to say I really appreciate what you've done for everyone and I know I'm not alone. And I just encourage people to help support this great series and if you can, please help Mormon stories continue and, and shed light on, on what needs to be exposed and, and as well brought to this, the, the center. So.

John Dehlin [02:53:22] Yeah, well, that's super kind. Thanks so much.

Greg Gerritsen [02:53:25] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [02:53:26] And give our best to your, your wife and kids and they're supporting you because clearly your wife would have had to be. Even as a partial believer, it's probably a lot for her to be able to accept that you're doing this. So thanks. Thanks to her.

Greg Gerritsen [02:53:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:42] Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, Greg Garrettson. And come back anytime.

Greg Gerritsen [02:53:50] Well, thanks. Happy to help. Anytime.

John Dehlin [02:53:53] Yeah. And if you're a Mormon pilot, ex Mormon pilot, I want to hear from you. And, and of course, you know, I get a lot of people who write me and say, john, can't you just interview regular Mormons? Why do you have to focus on ex bishops or existing presidents or ex mission presidents or ex, you know, family members of authorities? And I just want to say we are going to keep doing just normal Mormons too, and I hope you can see why opportunities like this are also special. So, so anyway, if there are any other family members of, or people or general authorities or external authorities or, you know, there's always going to be a platform here for you because it's just the, it's the lingua franca.

John Dehlin [02:54:40] Lingua franca of Mormonism is power and authority. So we're always going to give you privilege. If any of you want to follow Greg or others like Hans Mattson or Roger Hendricks or others and speak out that you're always welcome.

Greg Gerritsen [02:54:57] I will say one of the reasons why it took me so long to. Is because I didn't want to come on. Because I'm a grandson.

John Dehlin [02:55:05] Right. Because that's the problem to begin with.

Greg Gerritsen [02:55:07] Right. Yeah. Because you don't want to use that as a reason why you're furred.

John Dehlin [02:55:14] Yeah. So, yeah, that's, that's fascinating in it. On the one hand, I feel bad. On the other hand, I'm glad you overrode that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:55:22] It's, it's a, it's an interesting dynamic that, you know, it's there. You don't want it to be. Why you do things, but it's also. It's also why. Why things are like they are.

John Dehlin [02:55:35] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:55:35] So.

John Dehlin [02:55:35] Yeah. All right, well, thanks again, Greg.

Greg Gerritsen [02:55:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:55:39] And thanks again for joining us on Mormon Stories. Please share this. If you value this type of content, you can become a monthly donor. MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. We lose donors all the time. We can't keep doing this without your support. Thanks everyone on the Mormon Story staff and the board who make all this possible.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] Thanks to all the donors that make this possible and thanks to all the listeners and viewers. Please share this. Please spread the word. Please be loving and kind and good to each other and reach out comments on the blog, comments on YouTube, comments on Facebook.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] And feel free to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you think you have a really important story to tell. There's no way we could ever interview everyone who has a story to tell, but that's how I got in touch with Greg. He reached out and emailed me. Right, Greg? Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [02:56:30] So please always reach out@mormonstories gmail.com if you want to tell your story. Thanks, everybody. Be kind to each other. Love each other. Shout out to Richard B. Wirthlin and his lovely wife. What's her name? Your grandma.

Greg Gerritsen [02:56:47] Oh, Joseph B. Worthland.

John Dehlin [02:56:49] Sorry. Shout out to Joseph B. Wirthlin and

Greg Gerritsen [02:56:51] his beautiful wife Elisa.

John Dehlin [02:56:53] Elisa. Oh, you said that right. Thanks for all the wonderful things you did for the world.

Greg Gerritsen [02:56:59] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:57:00] All right, take care, everyone. We'll see you all again soon. Bye. Bye.

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