John Dehlin

Introduction to Navigating a Faith Crisis

[00:00:45] This recording was taken at the Utah Thrive Conference in Salt Lake City, Utah, in June of 2019. Without hyperbole. Honestly, I think this may be the most important talk I've ever written. I take that seriously. That why people leave. The church talk that I gave has helped a lot of people, the TED talk that I gave. But this talk represents a convergence of things that I've been thinking and feeling for a long, long time. And also this talk represents, I think, the biggest secret or the biggest tool or the biggest tip that I could give anyone who's going through a faith crisis.

[00:01:29] So I hope I didn't build it up too much, but I really believe that. So thanks for coming. And thanks to you who are joining us on my Facebook page, a few questions that I hope to answer for today.

[00:01:43] Number one, how to accelerate healing and growth after a Mormon faith crisis. How many of you are here to. That's why we're here, right? How many of you here for that? Okay. How to improve your mental health and how to find true and lasting joy. All right, so this is my. This is my biggest tip. You guys ready?

[00:02:04] So some of you will have seen this presentation that I give about navigating a faith crisis before. So some of these slides are going to be familiar to some of you if you guys have seen come to any of the workshops or retreats that we've done historically.

[00:02:19] I borrowed a few slides from that presentation, but I'm going to go through them quickly. As you know, we as humans have advanced brains and as conscious, intelligent creatures, we have developed over billions of years the capacity for things like self awareness, to gather information and data, to have complex thoughts, to have complex emotions, to have complex behaviors and relationships, and to create complex communities. Right? And these are all things that differentiate us from the rest of the animal kingdom and among other things. And they've got things we don't, but these are things that we have.

[00:03:05] And because of that, if you add to the sophistication of our brains the reality of adversity and pain and suffering in the world, whether it's wars or famines or fires or floods or death or family tragedy or divorce, broken families, conflict. When you add all that together, what you get is a tormented soul. Right? Right. These tormented souls that ask questions like, who am I?

[00:03:38] Why am I even here? Why should I even bother in this life? What is the purpose? How did I get here? Why do I feel so lonely? Will I ever be loved? How should I behave? How should I act? What's moral? Why is there so much suffering in this world. When I die, is that the end? Will I ever see my, my dead loved ones again? Will I even exist after I die?

[00:04:06] How do I even get to feel safe, let alone good about this life, let alone thrive? Right. And that's. These are the great existential questions that have plagued humanity since we were able to start forming words and language.

[00:04:26] And so I firmly believe that religion has emerged as man's attempt to grapple with these questions. I think mankind has done a pretty good job, with some exceptions, of improving when the data presents itself, whether it's germ theory, physics, whatever it is, astronomy.

[00:04:53] When humanity has gathered data to correct human, its false perceptions, it's sort of upgraded. It's understanding and awareness and we fight it and we resist it. But all in all, we do a really good job of like using data to fill in the holes. But there's still just a lot of holes that the data can't really, you know, answer. There's not data that tells us who we are necessarily or why we exist or where we came from, or what the purpose of life is.

[00:05:25] Why is there suffering and what happens when we die. There's just, there's not data. And so religions, you know, it's easy for us to be mad at religions that they've hurt us or they've done bad things. I'm still of the belief that religion has done far more good for humanity than it has ill. And I know that that makes people really mad. And it's just my opinion, don't hold it against me, but I think religion has filled in those existential gaps.

[00:05:52] So instead of sitting in the corner crippled and depressed and without identity, without meaning, without purpose, instead of just being crippled, we have found reasons to get up in the morning and to form community and to have an identity and to have a morality and to serve others, right?

[00:06:14] And so I've talked about this agreement that religion offers each of us. It basically says, hey, here's what we'll do. Make a deal with you, okay? We'll provide you with an identity. We'll provide you with a sense of meaning and purpose. We'll provide you with friends in a community, we'll support your family and your marriage.

[00:06:38] We'll provide you with spirituality. We'll tell you what's moral and what's not. We'll give you all that, tell you what happens when you die, all that stuff. And all that we ask in return, right, is, you know, a two year mission.

[00:07:00] You pay, right, 10% of your income for the rest of your life, three to 20 to 40 hours of service weekly. Your full unquestioning commitment and devotion, exact obedience. We get your children and you have to limit your relationships to people who are safe, who don't threaten the, you know, the program.

[00:07:30] Yeah. And you don't get any of the, any of the anesthetics that so many other people benefit from, like coffee and tea and alcohol. But most people are like, sign me up. Even in 2019, with as much historical information, scientific data, most people are like, sign me up. Still, Catholicism has not gone anywhere. They have systematic pedophilia and cover up. And the Catholic church is still thriving, Right? Religion is thriving because it meets these core needs better than anything else, period. That's a fact. Find something that meets these needs better than religion and tell me about it, Especially in one big package. Now, I'm not saying it does a great job at all these things.

[00:08:23] I'm not saying it doesn't cause harm. But when you go back to these questions, find something, find an organization you can join that will give you an identity, a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, a sense of morality, community, et cetera, et cetera. Now a lot of you are thinking, well, I don't need that, but then why are you here?

[00:08:50] But what happens when you're part of that religious system and it fails you? You find out that it's not. It kind of was important that it be true. Like, it's nice that it does all these things, but it's also kind of important that it's true. And it's also important that it doesn't hurt too many people. And a lot of us are here at this train wreck because either we found out it wasn't true, or we found out that it wasn't working for us anymore, or we found out that it was hurting too many other people.

[00:09:20] And so the whole thrive mission and purpose is to say, can we do something better? Can we do something different? Can we create something that will plug all these needs, that will meet all these needs in a comprehensive way that will help us feel good? Because when it all falls apart, it kind of feels like that you've got this huge gaping hole inside of you or several holes. Because now all of a sudden you don't have an identity. You don't know who you are, you don't know what's moral. You don't have a community. You've lost a bunch of your friends and maybe even a lot of your family.

[00:10:02] You don't know what spirituality is anymore. You don't even know what it means. And you don't know what happens when you die. And you don't know why you're here. And you don't know if you're ever going to live again or see others put you right back here, Right?

[00:10:20] And it feels crummy, and that's why you're here. And so the holes that emerge from a Mormon faith crisis are the holes that religion was filling. It provides you with basic temporal needs like food storage or, you know, bishop's storehouse or pay your rent. Like, it helps poor people become less poor. It helps illiterate people become more educated. It helps lonely and disenfranchised people find friends in community. How many of you are spending your time helping these people that the church helps? Right? How many of you can literally can honestly say that as a missionary, when you brought people into the church, their lives improved?

Filling the Spiritual Void After Leaving Religion

[00:11:00] At least sometimes I'm going to raise my hand. I saw people's lives improve, right? And so. But when you lose that religion, people, then, you know, do you have that social support, that network to provide your basic needs? What's your identity? What's your morality, friends, social community, family support, spirituality, all that stuff?

[00:11:24] So the question that I think about a lot is how do people fill these holes? How can we possibly fill these holes? It's hard. It's really hard. It takes a ton of work. And I want to just share a couple. Forgive me, but I'm going to share a couple scriptures as the foundation, because we can't say or believe anything as Mormons without quoting Scripture. Some external authority, right?

[00:11:52] Well, one external authority I'm okay quoting sometimes is Jesus. Why? Because Jesus pointed to your internal authority as being what should govern you. And if you don't believe me, look at his own words. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, the kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say low here or low there. For behold, the kingdom of God is where within you. I'm okay pointing to any guru who points you back into yourself, right?

[00:12:30] And that's the only guru I'm interested in. And all the good ones do that. Second thing, though, that I'm going to say as a precursor to this presentation is another quote by Jesus that has been hijacked in a way that I don't like. And I'm going to hijack it in a way that I like. But it's also a bit of a troubling message. Okay, Jesus Said, enter ye in at the straight gate, for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at, because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[00:13:07] So what I'm telling you today is hard. I'm going to tell you something that's really hard. I'm going to tell you something that many of you aren't going to want to do or is going to feel overwhelming. Maybe some of you can't do because of lack of privilege or resources.

[00:13:22] But if I have to give you some tools because you asked me to talk, or at least the committee asked me to talk because I was very willing to not talk, you can ask the committee. That's true. I'm going to give you my best recommendation.

[00:13:36] And so that's why I called this talk maybe the most important talk I'll ever give. And I'm going to just also credit my friend Christian Moore. That talk yesterday morning was so brilliant, wasn't it? Was it, Christian? Brilliant.

[00:13:51] And he conveys this idea that resilience is harnessing both your negative and your positive emotions. Wasn't it brilliant when he said that? To pursue excellence, to achieve greatness, what's the first ingredient? Do you guys remember what he said?

[00:14:07] Suffering. Isn't that amazing? We all think of suffering as this awful thing we want to avoid, but it is literally the requirement for greatness. You can't have greatness without suffering. So why are you all trying to avoid the thing that's going to make you great? We've got to change our attitude about suffering, right?

[00:14:28] We've got to say, well, you don't have to seek it, fortunately, you don't have to, like, invite it because it's going to come no matter what. But since it's there, it's going to be there. What if we change our attitudes about it and say, what do I learn from it? How do I harness it? And so this talk is in the spirit of Christian Moore. It's also in the spirit of this guy. Anyone know who this guy is?

[00:14:51] This is Joseph Campbell, okay? He wrote a book or he gave a Bill Moyers interview called the Hero with a Thousand Faces. I think it's called something like that. But he is the expert on myth, which is a word you should all be familiar with by this point.

[00:15:08] And Joseph Myth said. And by the way, what did I say? Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith. You guys should be giving this presentation. So Joseph Campbell studied myth. He studied narrative arcs. What are the stories that are kind of universal? Any. Whether it's Star wars, you know, it doesn't matter what the story is. The Iliad and the Odyssey, he teased out from all the great stories. Kind of this arc of the hero's journey. Okay?

[00:15:56] And it's great stuff. Google Bill Moyers. Joseph Campbell, some of the greatest wisdom you'll ever see. Literally, George Lucas modeled the Star wars trilogy after Joseph Campbell's work. Not kidding. So Joseph Campbell. For me, the greatest piece of wisdom that I've gleaned from Joseph Campbell's work is this.

[00:16:23] When you follow your bliss, and by bliss, I mean the deep sense of being in it and doing what, the push is out of your own existence, doors will open where you would not have thought there were going to be doors.

[00:16:38] Follow your bliss. Now, this can be glib, this can be trite. This is a narrow gate I'm talking about. This is hard. This is super hard. And I just want to make the case that it's totally worth it. Okay, so I'm going to do a little pop quiz now. I did this in my TED Talk. I'm going to do another pop quiz. I'm going to do two pop quizzes, actually, and I'm going to ask you two questions for each photo you see. Okay? I'm going to ask you, who is this person?

Inspiring Figures Who Found Purpose Through Adversity

[00:17:06] And I'm going to ask you what they did? Is that all right? Okay. Who is this person? Harriet Tubman. What'd she do? Underground railroad. She obviously was confronted with slavery in her life, and she dedicated her life to freeing slaves. Who is this?

[00:17:28] Susan B. Anthony. What did she do? She experienced the difficulties of sexism and male bigotry and domination and gave her life to helping women achieve equal rights and the vote. Ultimately, super important. Who's this? Mahatma Gandhi. What did he do?

[00:17:56] Two things. He noticed the pain and the suffering of his people at the hands of British colonialism, right? So he wanted to free his country from basically servitude. But he also developed, in a sideline. He developed, in some ways, based on Christian teachings, right? And Buddhist teachings and Hindu teachings and other teachings. He. He developed this idea of passive nonviolent resistance. Right? And he inspired who?

[00:18:28] Martin Luther King Jr. What did he do? Led the. You know, was one of the leaders of the United States civil rights movement, Right. Who's that? Malcolm X. He suffered from bigotry and racism and ultimately ended up in prison, but decided that he, in his own way, was going to fight also for civil rights.

[00:18:50] Personal hero of mine. Who's that? Oprah. She experienced kind of all this stuff. Sexism, racism, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse. And she turned all that into dedicating her life to making other people's lives better. She's a hero for me and Margi and for our family.

[00:19:11] Who's that? Eckhart Tolle. What did he do? Wrote the Power of Now A New Earth. Yeah. He basically has pioneered. He's basically taken secular Buddhism and pioneered it into modern vernacular so that we can find healing and spirituality and growth outside of a religious tradition or inside your religious tradition. It doesn't matter. Okay. Who's that?

[00:19:39] Brene Brown. What did she do? She is a social worker professor who's written several books on vulnerability and community and healing and personal development. And she's changing the world. Right. How do you feel about these people when I show you these pictures? How do you feel?

[00:20:05] In awe. What else? Clapping. Inspired. Empowered. Respect. Enlightened love. Good. Me, too. When I. And these people. But these people are all. These people are all flawed. They were all inadequate. If you read about Gandhi's life, he wasn't a great dad and he wasn't a great husband. Sometimes, you know, if you read about Martin Luther King Jr. And the FBI recordings that they have of him in private doing some things that are pretty awful, right? Like, these are flawed people. They were all inadequate in some ways. They were all unworthy and unfit, but they did it anyway.

[00:20:51] They all experienced significant suffering in their lives, right? And they decided to do what Christian told us yesterday. They found a way to channel their suffering and into making a positive difference in the world. That's it. Right. All right, it's time for Pop Quiz number two. You guys ready?

[00:21:10] Okay. There's a lot more names, so you guys need to get ready. Who's that? Juanita Brooks. What did she do? She's this housewife in the mid-1900s who's, like, ironing shirts by day, doing cutting edge Mormon history by night without an advanced degree. And she wrote the Mountain Meadows Master Book. That's. That's, you know, a pioneering work that's helped us all get to where we are today. Right? And she did it as a faithful Mormon housewife without a formal training in history.

[00:21:48] She's a pioneer. Who's that? Fonda K. Brody. What did she do? She's the niece of David O. McKay, who, in the mid-1940s, writes the definitive work on Joseph Smith. No biography will ever be more important about Joseph Smith than no man knows. My History. And it's the best read of all the biographies ever written about him.

[00:22:13] No one's going to ever surpass her. She did it in the 40s, right? Imagine that. CES letter, rough stone rolling. Dan Vogel. Take your pick. 80% of all the stuff those guys talked about, Fawn Brody talked about in the 40s, right? At great personal expense and cost. She was excommunicated, right? She is a hero. Read that book. Read that book in the next month or two. Who's that?

[00:22:44] Leonard Arrington. What did he do? Yeah, he was this professor of economics who decided he was going to help transform Mormon history. Many of you would not be here if it weren't for Leonard Arrington and his willingness to spend 10 years at church headquarters in the thankless job of trying to help the Church be honest about its history. And what did he get for it at the end of those 10 years?

[00:23:11] Fired and marginalized. Right? Who's that? Anyone? That's Lowell Bennion. Lowell Bennion inspired Eugene England, who then founded Dialogue. But Lowell Bennion was a. Was a religious instructor within Mormonism, but also a scholar. And again, he inspired Leonard Arrington. He inspired Eugene England, a really important guy. Who's that?

[00:23:40] Peggy who? What did she do? What did Peggy Fletcher Stack do? Don't you know what Peggy Fletcher Stack did? She started out as one of the founders of Sunstone. She was one of the found along with El. Along with, I don't know, a couple other people. She started Sunstone magazine and Sunstone Symposium. And then Albert Beck took it over. And then Dan Witherspoon took it over. Right?

[00:24:11] And then she became the top journalist for Mormon reporting in the world. Right? That's Peggy Fletcher Stack. Super important person to all of us and is still thriving. Who are those people? September 6th. What did they do? They all told the truth. Were any of them wrong?

[00:24:32] Well, maybe Avram Gileadi was wrong. Other than Avram Gileadi, they all told the truth. They fought for feminism. They fought for accurate church history. Right? And then what happened to them all? Excommunicated. Marginalized. That's Lavina Fielding Anderson. How many of you know who she is and what she did? Every one of you in this room should know what Lavina Fielding Anderson did. What did Levita Field Anderson do? Why did she get excommunicated?

[00:25:06] What? Who said it? She started making a list of all the examples of ecclesiastical abuse that she could find. Sexual abuse, cover ups of sexual predators, priesthood leaders who were abusive, who stole money, whatever. What happened to her? As a result of her chronicling abuse.

[00:25:27] Excommunicated. She did this back in the early 1990s. Right. Way before Sam Young, Lavina Feeling Anderson. These are important people, okay? And they all paid a huge price for what they did. Who's that? Richard Bushman. I think Richard Bushman's book Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Early Mormonism was actually more fatal to my testimony than Fawn Brody's. No man knows my history. Because it's one thing for an excommunicated apostate to write a book on Joseph Smith, but what if it's a stake president and a patriarch and the things that he writes validate all the things that the Tanners and Fawn Brody had been saying all along?

[00:26:10] That's a really courageous and powerful act, and that had a huge influence on me. Who's that? What did she do? What did she do? She's a pioneer for feminism, Mormon feminism. She's written books and plays about that. She's written many of the primary songs you sing. She's also an advocate, huge pioneering advocate for LGBTQ rights and a national acclaimed author. She's super important and brilliant. She's Mormonism's. People don't like this comparison, but I see her as our Maya Angelou sort of person within Mormonism. Who are those guys?

[00:26:51] Thomas Murphy and Simon Southern. What did they do? They figured out that the Book of Mormon DNA didn't make sense, that Native Americans were not descendants of Israelites. They did this back in the early 2000s. Right? Super important influence. Simon Southerton wrote a book, Losing a Lost Tribe. Thomas Murphy published some academic papers. What happened to both of them?

[00:27:20] Well, Simon Southington was excommunicated. Do you guys know what happened to Thomas Murphy? Back before we made excommunications a sacrament, a celebration, Thomas Murphy got called to a disciplinary council. He called all the media together and asked all the reporters to show up at his disciplinary council because he was smart enough to say, if the church excommunicates me, I'll make this an international news story that Native Americans DNA doesn't tie back to the Israelites. And you know what the church did?

[00:27:52] They called off the disciplinary council back in the early 2000s. Okay? Super cool guy. Who's that? What did he CES lifelong, decades long CES instructor who had the courage to write a book about Joseph Smith's history that's transformed so many of our lives. An insider's view of Mormon origins. What happened to him?

[00:28:19] Disfellowshipped and ultimately excommunicated. Who's that? Greg Prince. What did he do? What did he do? That's just one thing. He starts out curing rsv, which is this disease that was killing tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of babies all over the world, right? While helping develop a treatment for it. And then he goes on to write three or four incredibly fundamental Mormon history books on the side, including the biography of David O. McKay and others. Who's that?

[00:28:57] Who's that? Say it. What did she do? What did she do? Karaoke. She's saying, I watch your sex with, like, hip gyrations. Right? What did she do? Bringing sexy back. Back in, like, 2007 or 6 or 8, I don't know. When she decides I'm going to be the Mormon therapist, and she starts dedicating her life to saving Mormon marriages. And then she goes and gets her certification to become a sex therapist, because how dysfunctional are we sexually? And she's dedicated her life to healing Mormons. How beautiful is that?

[00:29:49] Who's that? Christian Moore. You guys have never heard of this guy? He's changing the world with his book the Resilience Breakthrough. Right? Transforming that pain. Transforming incredible learning disabilities into motivating young children and youth all over the United States to break out of the chains of poverty and lack of privilege. Julie de Azevedo Hanks. Wasn't she awesome yesterday?

[00:30:18] Who's that? What did he do? CES letters. Amazing how many of you guys have had your lives transformed by the CES letter. Super important work. Who's that? What did she do? Yeah, she starts out with feminist Mormon housewives and helps that blog progress. And then she decides to do a podcast on polygamy that has been foundational in so many of your journeys. And then she takes over Sunstone, which was dying, right? Totally lifeless. And she's transformed Sunstone into a really important component of community within Mormonism. Super important. Who's that?

[00:31:02] John Larsen. What did he do? Mormon Expression Podcast. John's going to be presenting to us later on today. John's. Yeah, you can clap at John Larsen. He's been a super important part of all of our journeys, and now he's trying to actually help us move beyond the anger to healing and growth. And some of you don't like that, but I like it.

[00:31:25] Who are these guys? Steve Holbrooke and. Who's the other person? Allison Udall. They're the two that started. Well, Steve helped build Utah Valley Post Mormon community, which has over four or five thousand members now. It's the single largest Post Mormon Community. Community in the world. And it's amazing.

[00:31:49] And if you live in Utah county, you need to check it out. They've got karaoke nights, book clubs, support groups for post Mormons all throughout Utah County. But then Stephen Allison joined forces to go on and create Mormon Spectrum, which is this amazing map or directory of all the post Mormon communities and progressive Mormon communities all over the world.

[00:32:12] And you have no idea how important that simple map and directory of support communities has been to encourage people to create local communities and to join them and to find the face to face support that they need to make it through this terrible, tragic and amazing gift of a Mormon faith crisis that we are all experiencing. That's Steve and Allison Udall. Steve Holbrooke and Allison Udall. Who's that?

[00:32:41] Amazing. What does she do? Thoughtful faith. Right? And she's doing cool things as well. Who's that? Mormons building bridges. What did they do? They were among the first Mormon themed groups to march in the Utah Gay Pride Parade and they're still going strong.

[00:33:04] Erica Munson and Kendall Wilcox were among the founders. Super important. Just, just last week I heard some LGBT Utahns who were gay and lesbian, never Mormon, talking about how inspired they were to see all these Mormons in white shirts and ties marching in the Utah Gay Pride Parade. Super important group.

[00:33:25] Who's that? Mama Dragons. What did they do? You can clap for Mama Dragons. What did they do? What? Yeah, Mamas who. Who actively publicly support and fight for their LGBT kids. Right? They were just an Oprah magazine last month. It's amazing. Yeah, Mama Dragons.

[00:33:53] Who's that? Bill Real. What did he do? Mormon discussions podcast. What else? Radio Free Mormon. Right. Amazing stuff. Who's that? Noah Rashada. What did he do? Secular Buddhism podcast. You know, he's a former Mormon Stories fan. You know, he's a dear friend of mine now he's. He has the most successful Buddhism themed podcast in the world with. With over 100,000 regular listeners tuning in. He's amazing and he's amazing human. Who's that?

[00:34:27] Kim Sandberg Turner. What did she do? Waka Coca, moca. All these amazing communities of people of a certain age who are finding friendship and community and support. Who's that? What did he do? Protect LDS children. Right? Some random bishop from Houston who owns an office supply store who is literally single handedly with all the people who support him, transformed the way the church is treating both children and adults on really important matters.

[00:35:02] Who's that? Who's that? Yeah, they're right here. Right? Leah and Cody And Brinley Young. What did they do? What did they do? They told their story. Right? They started. Which was, in and of itself transformative for tens of thousands of Mormons. But in addition. Right. They started a support group at Columbus, Ohio, and then they got publicly excommunicated. And who knows how many lives they have changed and will changed. Right?

[00:35:40] Who's that? Margi Delin. What did she do? She put up with me. She's. She's behind the scenes of everything good that's ever come out of Mormon Stories, the Open Stories Foundation. And she's found a way to transform her personal life into now all the books she's read, all the wisdom she's gained, She's. She's coaching other women and men and couples to help them find healing and joy.

[00:36:12] I'm really inspired by you and what you've done. Who's that? David Bachavoy. Who's this guy? Who's that? He's right here. David Bachvoid. Anthony Miller. 2. Amazing. And this is. It's Coco, right? Yeah. Anthony's a gifted and a brilliant writer.

[00:36:39] He's been helping Sunstone out, and we all know his presence on Facebook is. Is elevating. He's helping model elegant and graceful faith transitions. Right. And David Bachavoy, what an amazing scholar and what an amazing human. And this is his wife, Coco. Is that Coco? Yeah. Amazing humans, right?

[00:37:00] Who's that? Leslie. What did she do? Yeah, this is Leslie's husband, Harold. Leslie's not here, but we wish she were, but you can tell her about this later. She's an artist who painted all the wives of Joseph Smith, and she's gone on to teach other women and men to paint and to find a way to channel their creative energies into painting, and it's really inspiring stuff. Am I wrong, Harold?

[00:37:32] That's very Right. Who's that? Zelf on the shelf. Samantha and Tanner. What did they do? Yeah, they're bringing post Mormon thoughts and ideas to Millennials. Super important work. Who's that? Ryan McKnight. What did he do? Mormon Leaks, which led to the Truth of Transparency Foundation. Super important work. He's just an accountant in Vegas and he, along with other teammates, have done really important things. Who's that?

[00:38:13] Yeah, Alan and Katie. Is Alan here? He took off. Can that guy karaoke or what? What did they do? Marriage on a Tightrope, A podcast dedicated to mixed faith marriages. Who are these people? Holly Alden and Rick Alden.

[00:38:35] What did they do? Okay. Anyone know? Okay. They started out as the founders of Skullcandy which is this multi, multi million dollar earphone company that took the world by storm for many, many, many years out of Park City. After they had their faith crisis, they became financial supporters for some of the most important things that you guys have all benefited from. Somebody mentioned the first one holding out help. They bought the house for the charity holding out help that now is a halfway house. For who?

[00:39:13] For refugees from FLDS communities in southern Utah. But they didn't stop there. They went on to purchase the Encircle House, which was the first Encircle house that was used to to see the Encircle movement. Holly still sits on the board of Encircle and they've been dear supporters of Mormon stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Right? And who knows who, who, who else they've helped. And all they did was donate and support with advice and support behind the scenes. Super amazing, important people. Another really important person you guys have all never heard of is George Smith. Anyone know what George Smith did and who he was?

[00:39:55] Super rich guy from California who has bankrolled Sunstone and Signature Books for decades, and nobody knows his name. George Smith. Hundreds of thousands of dollars every year so that you guys can go to Sunstone and read cool books and read cool scholarship, all Michael Quinn stuff, Grant Palmer stuff. George Smith would. None of that. Dan Vogel stuff. None of that would have happened without George Smith.

[00:40:21] Okay? Who's that? Stephanie Larsen. What did she do? She is so brilliant. And she started in Circle movement, which is sweeping the world. Who are these people? Mindy Glenhill. Who's that? Angela Sof. Who's that? Who's that? Who's that?

[00:40:47] Sarah Sample. These are all artists. What did they do? They're musicians who channeled their faith crisis into a creative work to help other people. Right. Help others through the transition. Who's that? Right. Crystal writes a book about how to be a. A balanced. She's a blogger. She writes a book about how to be a balanced mom, which is helping women all over the world figure out how to find health and healing and creativity and growth. And then Sean Escobar, out of nowhere, right, becomes very vulnerable and shares his story of abuse.

[00:41:31] This shoots up to the New York Times and not only makes the New York Times, but makes probably the world's most popular podcast in a very gripping episode that I don't think we have any idea how much of an impact that's going to end up making for all of us.

[00:41:45] Right? What's that? And the Mormon Enlightenment group. Yeah, they started that important support group. Who's that Matt? Are you here? You Fetcher. Okay, Matt is that really vulnerable, awesome guy who told us Friday night that he. He almost took his life a few months ago. Right.

[00:42:11] What you don't know is that when I needed financial support to go fly and see Sam Young and to support Sam Young during his excommunication, who paid for my flight? Matt Berdo. When I needed money to go fly to support Lee and Cody and Brinley Young during their excommunication, who paid for that flight?

[00:42:33] Matt Berdo. When I wanted to bring Tara west over to Salt Lake City to support her book educated, who paid to fly her out? Matt Berto. When I wanted to bring Tova Mirvis to Salt Lake City to support her book, the Book of Separation, who paid for it?

[00:42:50] Matt Berdo. Wish he was here. Fetcher. Absolutely. Who's that? Who is that? Who's that? The Thrive Committee. Okay. I was done with doing events. I had, like, canceled all the events that I had planned. I was sick of it. I was out of the events business, right?

[00:43:17] Because it was just overwhelming to me. I was just tired and worn out and someone, I forget who had this idea to do this Thrive conference, which is like filling a very important need of providing post Mormons with a conference dedicated to healing and growth. I was not going to do this conference. I was not going to do it. I did not want to do it. I wasn't going to do it. There's no chance I was going to do it.

[00:43:44] But then. But then freaking Clinton and Jenny Martin, they come to a cruise in the Bahamas last fall, and Clint pulls me aside afterwards and he says, hey, John, you know that awesome content that you shared on the cruise?

[00:44:00] I will personally finance you sharing that content with other people. I'll pay for it so that people can attend for free. I'm like, huh? Okay. Like, that feels a little weird. I feel bad that I can't just do this for free all the time, but I can't. So he started a monthly series, workshops for free at Community of Christ in Salt Lake, where every month I've been delivering a topic. One on mixed faith marriages, one on mental health, one on navigating a faith crisis.

[00:44:34] And there's been 75, 80 people showing up every month. It's been an amazing thing. And so that just. It works. Like, I'm like, okay, we could try it. It worked. And so then when this idea of Thrive came up, Clinton, I had sushi. And I'm like, well, he's like, how else can I help this workshop's really working. What else can I do? This guy's a car salesman. He owns, like 8 or 9 or 10 or 12 or whatever car dealerships, he and his wife. And I'm. And he's like, what else can we do? And I'm like, I don't know. I guess we could try and do this conference thing, but I can't do it.

[00:45:09] I don't have time. I don't want to do it. I don't have the emotional energy to do it. So Clint and Jenny are like, we'll do it. We'll do it. Just tell us what you need. We'll do all we can to make it so the impact on you is minimal. Okay. And then Lindsay. And then Lindy shows up. Lindy helps me do a workshop in Orem, and she's like, hey, I want to help more. And Brooke Bond. And Miller says, hey, John, I really need. Need a cause and something that I want to be a part of. And Lisa and Paul hacking. As if they weren't doing enough with managing Coca and Waka, they say, we want to help.

[00:45:44] And all of a sudden, in a few months, we put together a really freaking successful and enlightening conference for everybody. Right? Yeah. And of course, Lee has been super supportive in this as well. This. This is. This is amazing. How do you feel about all that? We just listed, like, 40 people. How do you feel about all these people?

The Gifts and Opportunities of a Faith Transition

[00:46:21] And there's. There's thousands and thousands more people that I didn't list. I can't list everybody. But whether or not you know it, these people have transformed your lives. Your lives. None of any of you are thankful for Mormon Stories.

[00:46:38] Open Stories Foundation. I'm so grateful for your kind words. The gift of the Mormon Faith crisis. None of that would have happened without these people. Do you realize that? None of wasn't me. I was a part of this big community of people who had pain and suffering and decided that they were going to positively channel their suffering into meeting the needs of other people. Have I made my point?

[00:47:05] Is it a little bit. Is it a little bit pedantic? Have I gone overboard? What do all these people have in common? They're all flawed. They're all inadequate. They're all broken in some way. But they turn their faith crisis into a creative act, okay? Instead of wallowing in their sadness, instead of having their life careen out of control, instead of retreating into selfishness, Right?

[00:47:33] They channeled their suffering, their talents, their joys, their experiences into making your lives better. Our lives better. That's what they all did. So this was their secret. They figured out what their talents were. Whether it's history or public speaking or organization or business skills, or having money or having time or having passion or commitment or social media expertise, they identified or therapeutic skills. They identified their talents.

[00:48:11] What were they good at? And then they also identified what's their passion? What are they really care about? What do they care about? What gets them? What would they do if they couldn't even make money at it? What would they do, right, if they just had free time?

[00:48:29] And then they looked for a way to make a meaningful difference in the world, okay? And then many of them figured out how to merge these things all together. How do I merge my talents with my passions, with my desire to make a meaningful difference in the world?

[00:48:50] Now, I have now transitioned, if you haven't noticed. I've now transitioned in this talk from honoring a bunch of people to providing you with some information that could be helpful to you. Is that unclear? Okay. This is the point where it actually relates to you. Okay? They identified their talents, they identified their passions.

[00:49:13] They looked for a way to make a meaningful difference in the world, and they figured out how to merge those things and sustain them over a long period of time. Okay? And then the final thing that they did is that they all suffered for their actions, but they never gave up.

[00:49:41] They never gave up when the chips were down, when the family was mistreating them, when they were broke, when they were discouraged, when they were maligned, when they were mistreated. They kept going and they didn't quit. That's what they did.

[00:49:58] Okay? And many of you have done this in your own way. And so let's go back to the beginning of this presentation. Okay? What are the holes that emerge from a faith crisis? Your identity, your morality, lack of friends, lack of a social network, lack of a community, fractured family, questionable spirituality, the need for a meaning and purpose, opportunities to serve and resolutions to the existential problems. Right? Those are the holes.

Service as the Path to Meaning and Community

[00:50:37] I hope you're seeing how this all ties together. How can we possibly fill all those holes? What's the single most strategic and effective way that you can fill these holes? Narrow is the gate. Few will there be that find it.

[00:50:57] But I'm going to give you my suggestion on a shortcut, okay? Identify your talents. What are your talents? Everybody has a talent or time or both. Or money. Identify your passions. For Sam Young, it was children, right? For Michael Quinn, it was history.

[00:51:23] For Stephanie Larsen, it was LGBTQ youth. Identify your passion. Find a way to make a Meaningful difference in the world and figure out how to merge these things and sustain them. For Kim Turner, it was women over 40, right?

[00:51:44] And be willing to make sacrifices, but be willing to never give up until you reach your objectives. And what you will find is that through that single act, you will resolve many, if not all, of these holes through that effort.

[00:52:09] In other words, it's the simple most. It's. It's the. It's the simplest way. The simple, the simplest single way to make the biggest difference in your life in a way that's transformative. You guys remember last night? Did you guys go, wow, I didn't. I didn't know John had that in them. Did any of you guys. How many of you guys had that thought, well, this isn't me bragging, all right? But what I want to say is this karaoke is a manifestation of the joy that I feel from the work that I've been doing for the past 14 years. I really didn't karaoke before I started all this stuff.

[00:52:56] Like, prior to 2005, maybe. I Karaoke one time, right? Karaoke represents how I feel about what I do and the life that I live. And that's. I think if there's any thing you could witness about the joy and the meaning and the fulfillment and the friendships and the community and the passion and the spirituality that I get from what I do, it's represented in karaoke. Now, that's a little bit of an angry face, right?

[00:53:27] But I'm not angry. I'm filled with joy. Right? That's joy. It looks like rage. It looks like rage, but it's really joy. Okay, but here's the. Here's the thing I want to say, okay? Back in 2001, 2002, when I went through my faith crisis, Margi will attest that I was depressed.

[00:53:53] I was disheveled. I let all my facial hair grow. I was wearing Birkenstocks and socks to church. I was. I didn't. All I was doing was on the computer arguing with people on email forums about Mormon history and Mormon truth claims, trying to figure this out. Trying to figure this out. Trying to figure out. Trying to mourn and grieve the life that I had given up, trying to keep my marriage together and make sense of all the sacrifices that I had made, Groping with all the pain that I was discovering as I learned about Stuart Mattis driving up to the steps of his. Of his local California church, pinning a note to his chest that said, do not resuscitate, and shooting himself on the Floors of his church.

[00:54:40] Right. I was trying to make sense of this and women and how they had been mistreated. I didn't even understand. I was just starting to understand feminism and how women had been treated and LGBT people and all the people who had been the September 6th and, oh, my gosh, I was at BYU and they were excommunicated. And I stayed in the church another, I don't know, 15 years after that. Like, I knew about Fon Brody. Like, where was I? I was trying. I was so disoriented and trying to make sense of this. I had the coolest job I could have ever wanted. Bill Gates knew my name.

[00:55:12] Steve Ballmer was considering me to be his speechwriter. I was working at the top levels of the company with a huge future traveling the world. I went to 40 countries during the time that I worked at Microsoft. And I was miserable. I was totally miserable because my world had fallen. My world had evaporated. I was like, that picture with the huge hole inside, that's what it did to me.

[00:55:40] And I was depressed for years in a job and with a wife and with a family where I should have been on cloud nine. But I was miserable. So I made this crazy decision. Margi and I made this crazy decision. In 2004, I'm going to leave a job that pays over $200,000 a year where I'll be a millionaire for sure within a couple years.

[00:56:06] We're going to leave that job and go take a full time PhD position where I may make $15 an hour. Okay. And go back to school with four kids and a wife who doesn't work outside the home with no income and try and make a difference.

[00:56:24] Made no sense. And this is before Facebook existed. This is before podcasts existed. This is before social media existed. We had no idea how this was going to turn out. All we did is we just said, margie and I, let's take this leap of faith and put one foot in front of the other and see if we can make a scratch out a small difference. Right. When I bought that first microphone and when I recorded that first interview and put up a podcast blog page and posted that first interview, I had no idea what it would lead to. Do you think I had any idea that we'd be sitting back in 2005 that we'd be sitting here 14 years later in a conference with over 300 people?

[00:57:09] Right. With things that have transformed in many ways. Mormonism. Right. Many people's lives had no idea. But this is what I can tell you it's been a financial struggle. We went 12 years without health insurance in our family. We sacrificed 12 years of retirement. We sacrificed 12 years of six figure income right before we were able to get to a reasonably sustainable financial position over the past couple of years.

[00:57:40] But our basic needs are fine. But more importantly, I know who I am now and I don't. I'm not bragging, I'm not trying to say I'm great, but I don't struggle with who I am now. I feel good about who I am in spite of my weaknesses. Okay.

[00:58:03] I am by far more moral and ethical than I've ever been in my life, including all those times I was a devout Mormon, not really understanding what honesty and ethics really were. Right. I'm a more committed husband than I've ever been. I'm a more committed father than I've ever been. I have better mental health than I've ever had before.

[00:58:27] I have more friends than I could ever want, no offense. I am so blessed with incredibly great friends. I have more social connections than anyone could ever want or need. The most amazing community that you could ever want, right?

[00:58:48] My family has all the support that they need. Actually, we could continue benefiting from support, but Margi and I are comfortable with where our family has grown. We're very proud. Proud of where our family has grown from, from the adversity that we've faced. We're super proud of our family, and we're super proud of what we put together. I feel more spiritually connected than I've ever felt. If you define spirituality as being connected to a higher purpose or a higher cause, I do more service now than I've ever done in my life. Helping people my entire life, professionally. Every single minute I wake up, I'm like, what's a marriage I can save today?

[00:59:28] What's a family I can keep together? How can I help someone who's depressed or anxious be a little better? How can I help an LGBT kid not hurt themselves today? Who wouldn't want that job? I get to wake up every single day and do that, and you help me.

[00:59:48] Service and then meaning and purpose. If I died today, and then somehow you could ask me after I died if it was all worth it. Right? I feel like I lived a life of meaning and purpose. Right. As far as the existential stuff, no. I don't know what happens when we die or where we're going, but that's the whole point, because I don't know. I am so committed to living the best life that I can. Right now to making every, every, every maximize the value of every minute and every hour that I have and every day that I'm just okay not knowing what happens after we die.

[01:00:25] I'm too busy living in the now, doing my contributions in the present moment, that I'm not worried about death or the afterlife. Maybe that'll change if I get cancer. Maybe that'll change when this really hits me. But I'm not worried about those existential concerns. Sufficient is the evil of today to worry about the future. As I loosely quoted Jesus there.

[01:00:50] So Mahatma Gandhi said, the best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others. And it's true. So that is why I called this the most important talk I may ever give. Because if I were to give you, and this is hard, narrow is the gate. I'm not saying it's easy. If I were to give you one secret for thriving, for rebounding from your faith crisis, from your Mormon faith transition. Identify your talents, identify your passions, Identify a way to make a meaningful difference in the world.

[01:01:27] Figure out how to merge these things and sustain them. And then be willing to make sacrifices but never, ever, ever give up. Now, if you're thinking, I don't have any idea what I could do. Give you some ideas. Okay.

[01:01:44] How cool would it be how many of you went to efy? How cool would it be to have a post Mormon EFY where you could send your teenage kids to EFY program where Leah and Brinley Young or Margi Dehlin or Natasha Halford Parker or name your really cool wise person David Bacavoy Anthony, where they were teaching and instructing your children to be moral, ethical, wise, healthy human beings, teaching them healthy sexuality, teaching them healthy relationships, teaching them good mental health. How many of you would like to send your kids to something like that?

[01:02:24] Yeah, well, we need that. We've needed it for years. Who's going to step up and do that? We need somebody to step up and do that. Just like Kim Turner stepped up for waca, Right? We need someone to do. And there's already a couple people who are interested. So, you know, just like Stephanie Larsen did in circle, we need a post Mormon efy.

[01:02:46] We need a post Mormon dating app or service to facilitate. There's so many amazing post Mormon men or women who are never been married, who have left the church before they got married or who are divorced, who are amazing humans, who are. Whose spouses abandoned them when they lost their faith, who are trying to find love, but they don't have a community Or a way to find them.

[01:03:09] We need a post Mormon dating app or service. What if you could send your kids with other post Mormon kids on a missionary service and they could go to a foreign country, learn a language, make a positive difference, teaching literacy or providing healthy, clean water to people? Right?

[01:03:28] How much you would. How many of you would want to send and with our fellow children, how much you want to send your kids on that type of mission, Right? And when all your family, your Mormon family gets together for the family reunions, what's that?

[01:03:42] Yes, you can talk to your kids when they're gone and not just on. Not just on P days. How many of you want to go to those family reunions where all these siblings are bragging about their kids serving missions? And you can say, hey, my kids served missions, Right?

[01:03:57] They provided clean water to people who didn't have it. They. They passed out contraception to, you know, to help, to help prevent the spread of AIDS in developing countries. Right? They taught English not because they wanted to pull you into another system, but because they wanted to help you learn English. Right?

[01:04:16] How many of you want to send your kids to that? How about. How many people don't have a local post Mormon community in your little city or town where people can find friends and get the support they need? How many of you don't have that right now?

[01:04:29] Okay, we need that. All over. All over Utah and all over the world, there are Facebook groups that can be created or moderated. We just need good moderators to accept who comes in the group and who doesn't, to get rid of the riff raff, to help enforce forum rules.

Taking Action to Contribute and Thrive

[01:04:48] How many of you have extra money? How many of you have tithing, right, that you're no longer paying but you're not using to help make the world a better place? I think the law of tithing is still a true principle.

[01:04:59] But now how many of you are not using your tithing dollars in a way that can actually contribute? If you're not able to be an activist or a podcaster, an author or an artist, you can donate to a cause. You can be like Rick and Holly Alden and financially support a cause to make a difference. A podcast, a book, a movement, an organization, a nonprofit, sunstone, whatever you want to support. Waka. I don't care. Support something you can make a document, documentary, film. Mormonism needs its own going. Clear, right?

[01:05:33] You can hold. You know, there needs to be an organization. The Open Stories foundation tried to do workshops and retreats and conferences. I can't do it. I don't want any more employees for the foreseeable future. I've had amazing people support me. I just want to do my small little thing that I do, try and keep it sustainable, the podcast, you know, the work that we do, support other good efforts. I can't run an events business and I don't want to. Somebody can step up and create workshops and retreats and conferences for progressive and post Mormons. Femme retreats for women, retreats for youth. Right. Workshops for healing and growth.

[01:06:11] Thrive itself needs to be its own organization. And I'll support these things, but I don't want to lead them. I don't want to manage them. Right. I want to help them write a book, start a podcast. There's a million things that you can do. And so that's going to be what I leave you with. What will you contribute?

[01:06:31] What will you contribute? If you're looking. Yeah. Thank you. If you're struggling in your journey, consider what you will contribute. And the final thing I'll say is among the lives that you save and enhance will be your own. That's it. Thank you for tuning in today. For other Thrive presentations and future thrive events, visit thrivebeyondmormonism.com.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.