Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It is October 22, 2025, and the title for today is Gardens After Eden. Is that intriguing? I hope it is. You know, a lot of times people ask for kind of an everyday Mormon story, and I don't think there's such thing as an everyday Mormon story. But today we have a fun, thoughtful, interesting Mormon story and we have Sharon Beasley in the house. Hey, Sharon.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:33] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Thanks for joining us.

Sharon Beesley [00:00:34] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] She lives in, let's just say the New York, New England kind of area. I won't be specific. I'll let you be specific if you want to. She happens to be a therapist, but also we discovered her from a cool blog that Margi was reading. Do you want to tell that story, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:52] Yeah. So occasionally I read a blog called cup of Joe and one morning I think it was the. Was it the style? You know, like the uniform?

Sharon Beesley [00:01:06] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:07] Or the.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] Anyway, Joe Mormon blog or not?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:11] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] What is the title?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:12] Just, she's a very popular kind of daily blog. She's been around for a long time. Check it out. We're very pro Joanna Goddard around here. But anyway, just serendipity really. But I was, I was looking at the interview. It usually interviews someone's style and asks various questions. And I noticed that in one of the answers that Sharon had mentioned being Mormon. And anyway, the interview was so joyful, thoughtful, unique,

Sharon Beesley [00:01:48] delightful.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:49] It was just delightful and spirited. It was so refreshing to me that I immediately brought it up to John and we, we reached out and here we are. Here we are.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:00] How lucky are we? Thank you. I feel lucky, too.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] Anything you would want to add to your intro before we jump in that.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:12] No, let's just jump in.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:13] It was good. I love the intro. No edits.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] And you're. Can you describe for our listeners what you're wearing and even show your shoes?

Sharon Beesley [00:02:20] Oh, my goodness. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] I think you're on theme. I think you're on style.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:23] Yes. John didn't think I was an actual gardener, that this was some sort of Halloween costume, but it's real. I really wear overalls and show your shoes.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:32] Oh, yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:32] And I have my red holsters. I don't know how to do that.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Are red Converse, typically gardener uniform? Sort of.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:39] Sure. It's mine. So then it is because I'm a gardener. And then I, I was like, I don't know, whatever. I have.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] You have poodle poodles on your turtleneck.

Sharon Beesley [00:02:50] Yes. And Bears. It's quite the outfit.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] Do you. Do you garden with poodles or bears?

Sharon Beesley [00:02:58] Oh, not yet, but I could if you got them. And it's a thing. I will try it. If it's all about choices and possibilities, I'm just learning. So if poodles and bears make gardens better, then I'll take it.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] And if you had to kind of set up this theme of gardening after Eden, let's set up the theme for them to launch into your story, because I did not do it justice, I'm sure.

Sharon Beesley [00:03:26] Okay. So I really. I really feel lucky to be in a religion where Eve was presented as this really strong female. I don't think that she is in all religions. In Mormonism, Eve is shown as the one that kind of figures out the plan, eats the fruit and. And makes the choice to leave because she had to bring this plan into fruition. And so I love that we have that perspective. And when I was leaving the church, I kind of related to her that I was the one eating the fruit and kind of taking. Well, because my husband's a believer. Was a believer, and I was departing the garden. And then since leaving the Garden of Eden, I've created gardens on my own and continued to create them, and it didn't end there.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Interesting. So leaving the garden doesn't mean a gardenless life, Right? It means leaving one garden to create other gardens.

Sharon Beesley [00:04:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] So it feels like a healing and growth in a reconstruction kind of theme. Is that right?

Sharon Beesley [00:04:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] All right. Well, we've already spent too many words being literal on this. I have, anyway.

Sharon Beesley [00:04:44] I mean, yeah, gardens are just. They're filled with metaphors. It's the best.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:48] It's like nature.

Sharon Beesley [00:04:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:49] All the nature metaphors.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] And I think there'll be some parenting themes here as well as you what help your kids decide the garden they want to create. Is that.

Sharon Beesley [00:04:58] Absolutely. They are going. There are things that pop up in the garden that you don't even anticipate. And I think that's the best part about being a gardener. There's so many surprises. And so I use that with my parenting as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Beautiful. All right. Well, and also, obviously, Margi is my co host. Thanks for joining us, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:20] Yeah, absolutely. Excited.

Sharon's Early Life and Mormon Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:05:22] All right, well, Sharon Beasley, where does your Mormon story begin? Were your parents Mormon?

Sharon Beesley [00:05:28] Oh, yes. So my mom in 1978, around that time, is looking for a church. This is before I was born. My dad kind of just was not into religion, grew up Catholic, wasn't part of his life, and just kind of put that responsibility in my mom and let her kind of find it. She was raised Lutheran and.

Sharon Beesley [00:05:58] She was looking and, you know, there's the story of her going to her neighbor's house and there was some female missionaries there that really resonated with her. And so she started looking into Mormonism. And I do find it interesting. It was in the late 70s. I. I wish I could ask her some of those questions, like about the priesthood and that because black men didn't have the priesthood and why she would want to join a church that didn't offer that to everybody. But for her, that wasn't at the time, I guess it wasn't an issue. And after a lot of prayer and talk with her church leaders, the story that she told us often was that she didn't want to join a church for herself, that it was for her children and where to raise her children best.

Sharon Beesley [00:06:52] So it always came across as this really selfless choice. And so when she was looking into religions, it was, what is the best place to raise my children in? And for her, she believed it was Mormonism. And so she got baptized in around 1979. She was pregnant with my sister at the time, and I was born two years later. We moved to.

Sharon Beesley [00:07:16] That was in Miami. Then we moved to Port Charlotte, Florida. And that's where I was raised and went to church and loved it and participated in it. Had my best friend was there was a good spot to be raised. I think she was right.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Did your dad ever join or never joined? Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:07:40] No, he's just been. He would. He's an Italian Catholic. He would cook spaghetti and pasta while we were gone, and we'd come home and have a big Italian Sunday dinner and.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Yeah, but he was supportive as adult. Could be.

Sharon Beesley [00:07:53] Yes. He loves the conservative values that Mormonism was raising his daughters in. I have two sisters. And so he was on board with all of the values that Mormonism taught us.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] You may not want to share or not know, but I'm curious if your dad ever did deconstruction out of Catholicism and if he had any intellectual or theological differences or if he just wasn't engaged or didn't think about it.

Sharon Beesley [00:08:23] It's not. He's. It wasn't for him. He's just not what how he wanted. He was like, happy for us and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:08:34] Really.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] I mean, so many other religious traditions just. It's not for. So it's not a big deal. It's not a big trauma. It's not.

Sharon Beesley [00:08:40] No, no. I never got that sense from him that it Was just. He wanted to have that as part of the parenting responsibility that he gave my mother.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:08:49] You know, sometimes you divide and conquer as a parent and that was how it wasn't my family.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Okay, so you'd go to church with your mom.

Sharon Beesley [00:08:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] And sibling or.

Sharon Beesley [00:08:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, all three of us. Me, me and my older sisters would go and sing the songs. We had some really good music teacher, you know. Yeah. Some really good experiences singing.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] And where in Florida is this? She said the city, but I don't know.

Sharon Beesley [00:09:14] Okay. Southwest Florida. Near. Between Tampa and Fort Myers. The golf side.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:09:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] And. Okay. And so your primary and let's just say young adult years.

Sharon Beesley [00:09:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] It was friends, dances, all the things.

Sharon Beesley [00:09:32] My best friend was there. We wouldn't listen at all during the lessons. We would just talk and the teachers were so patient and just would keep going on with their lessons. And I, I loved it. Like I, I thought it was a really good community and I thought it was fun. I loved the church dances. I loved. Like I felt really at home. I could be weird and goofy, especially in Florida and like it was part of my identity. How, how,

Margi Dehlin [00:10:06] how would you describe, like, was the church like flourishing there? What were you kind of more of the. Yeah, the, the exception. Did you have a ward versus branch?

Sharon Beesley [00:10:17] Yeah, we had a full on ward and a little church building. Like it felt very established and substantial.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:26] So enough support. But like in elementary school, were there a lot of Mormon kids in your school or were you pretty much like. Do you remember that?

Sharon Beesley [00:10:35] Yeah, yeah, I was. I mean the thing is I had. My best friend was Mormon and then her mom was best friends with my mom. So it was a very. I feel like I don't need much as far as like a community. Like having a best friend was good enough for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:48] Right. And did she go to school with you?

Sharon Beesley [00:10:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:51] And she went to school with you, so lived close enough to, to share. Because that's not always true in a ward.

Sharon Beesley [00:10:56] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:56] Sometimes you'll have a friend in the ward but you are separated distance wise where you don't go to school.

Sharon Beesley [00:11:02] Oh yeah. I actually had another best friend too. I had two at the time when I was in elementary school.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:07] Nice.

Sharon Beesley [00:11:07] So it was more than I could want.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] What about things like prayer, scripture study, your interest in the doctrine and the theology and your testim. Personal internalization of Mormonism?

Sharon Beesley [00:11:23] It was pretty light.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:26] Was it Mormonism light?

Sharon Beesley [00:11:28] Yes. I mean it wasn't. I thought it was substantial. Like at the time I didn't know until I went and Grew up. I was like, oh no, I actually don't know. And I mean it was like enough, you know, like the basics. I felt like I understood the basics that, you know, the Book of Mormon. I didn't know all the stories, but I got the general consensus and I liked it. I thought it was believable. And I went to, you know, when I was 12. The Orlando Temple had been built by then, so we did baptisms for the dead and I participated in all of that. And I went to the inner, the bishop's interviews and they would ask me like, do you believe? And you know, and I, I feel like I knew enough to answer those questions. So go do baptisms for the dead.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Seminary.

Sharon Beesley [00:12:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. When? Early morning, 6:00am you know, it, we, we do it. And I had really good teachers. I mean sometimes, well, stuff happened there. But you know, like not all the teachers were perfect. But I felt like it was a good group of kids that I liked and there was some really, really handsome guys. Like, like I was a freshman, they were so good looking and they would go. So that was also helpful I think.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Now remembering from your outline, you mentioned there was a bit of a seminary incident.

Sharon Beesley [00:12:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Want to talk about that? You don't want to talk about that?

Sharon Beesley [00:12:56] You know, it's interesting because I, I tried to look for it in the papers and I couldn't find it.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Sometimes bad things can find their way out of the Internet whole.

Sharon Beesley [00:13:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] When the church is involved. So it could be the church maybe cleaned that up because it sounds like the type of story the church would like to clean up and I just guess.

Sharon Beesley [00:13:16] Yeah. And it was nineteen nine, like the late nineties and so I bet it was pretty easy if they wanted to. I don't. We're doing conspiracy theories. But yeah. He, my seminary teacher was a bishop and he just really harmed one of the, the girls in, in seminary. And you know what? As you do as a kid, life just went on like we didn't, it didn't fee. It disturbed me. But it wasn't enough to make me stop going or to start questioning. I, I don't know how that happens. I don't know the science behind that. Some cognitive dissonance happening. But I um, remember that happening. He goes to jail and they just put in a new seminary teacher.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:12] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:14:13] And then the next bishop and it gets. We had like three bishops in a row that got excommunicated. But again, it was just like what? I don't, I know I was just. But it was just like, okay, we're

John Dehlin [00:14:23] three in a row.

Sharon Beesley [00:14:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] But.

Sharon Beesley [00:14:25] And I did question. I was like, why isn't anybody from, like, Utah come in? Because, like, our word seems a little messed up, but save us, Utah. Yeah, they just were. We just went along.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:38] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:14:38] And then they found a new one, and then they found a new one, and then they found a new one. And.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:42] Yeah. What I'm hearing is that it's a good fit and that you're having a lot of.

Sharon Beesley [00:14:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:50] Like, overall, your personal experience with it.

Sharon Beesley [00:14:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:53] Is quite positive, at least in these years that you're describing. Is that the way you would talk about it? Yeah. Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:15:00] It was it. I loved the dances and the steak stuff, the activities they created for us. The leaders, the. The young woman's leaders were fun and cool and young. And I loved the idea of marriage. That. I mean, that is so romantic as a. As like a 14, 15, 16. I mean, like, that is all I wanted to talk about, you know, and then we talk about that all the time at church.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:30] Yeah, that's a good fit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:15:35] I. I didn't have boyfriends or anything, but I was like, I want to talk about it. Like, it seems really romantic and fun to get married.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:48] So during your, like, childhood, early teen years, do you have any memories of feeling like your family wasn't like other Mormon families or worried if your family would not make it to heaven or like some of that doctrine? Did any of that doctrine, I guess, like, seep through to a point that you felt it personally or were you. Were you actually just kind of very much living it in the moment?

Sharon Beesley [00:16:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:22] Not necessarily doctrine oriented.

Sharon Beesley [00:16:25] I think what helped was that we didn't have like, a temple in, like, the closest one was or Atlanta for so long. So, like, that. I feel like a lot. I can suspect that a lot of people in my ward were not as sealed as maybe in other words. Or.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] I don't know.

Sharon Beesley [00:16:45] And I never. The temple, eternal marriage. I didn't really get it. I think. I don't think that was a message that I was really understanding.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Well, your mom wouldn't have wanted to emphasize it, and ward members would have felt it awkward.

Sharon Beesley [00:17:04] Yeah, you're right. Maybe I was protected from that.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:06] I wonder, although in young women's, I do feel like. And I'm curious if your experience was this, the way they drive so hard on the temple. Like, that's the time where I feel like the temple is just everything. So do you remember it happening later at all?

Sharon Beesley [00:17:23] Well, no, I think. I think what happens is as Teenagers, we're so self involved. Right. I was really, you just think about yourself so much. So I was like, I'm not so concerned about my parents. I'm going to marrying the temple for myself. I'm going to have that. And so it was maybe more, I was determined that maybe my parents don't get it, but that's not going to be me. I'm going to find like the coolest, most stable Mormon guy out there. And he, he's preparing himself for me right now, just like I'm preparing myself for him.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:00] I'm feeling it, love it.

High School Interests and Family Challenges

John Dehlin [00:18:03] What were you into in high school? Just in terms of personal interests and hobbies and sports or whatever.

Sharon Beesley [00:18:09] I was a gymnast and then I got into springboard diving. It's like the transition most gymnasts make. And then I did soccer. I did. Oh, I was in the art club, of course, obviously. So I loved that. And I worked, I volunteered at the local art guild and on Saturdays. So the art community was really important to me.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:38] Yeah, yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:18:39] And the springboard diving.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:41] And springboard diving.

Sharon Beesley [00:18:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] And then let's just say as you're getting towards the end of high school, what, what was your dream or vision for how your life would play out? Oh, and even your Mormon life, but also just your life?

Sharon Beesley [00:18:56] Well, my sister's nine years older than me, so she kind of gave me the map.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] She paved the way.

Sharon Beesley [00:19:01] Yes. And so what she did and what I was going to do too was go to byu, Idaho for two years, then go to byu, Hawaii, get married in the temple and do as she did. Because it worked and she, she made it work. So I was going to do that too. That kind of felt like the dream.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:19:21] And I wanted to be a stay at home mom. I would like say that. And I remember my, I still remember like my art teacher kind of not cringing but like, huh. Because I thought that was so like rebellious to say, like, I'm going to be a stay at home mom. Taha. Take that.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] Yeah, take that. Feminist. Okay, so it sounds pretty Mormon idyllic, minus a priesthood holding dad. But it sounds like that wasn't even really tagged as a problem really in your upbringing.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:56] And maybe like a hint of ward scandal as well. That didn't really, didn't really impact, it sounds like for you, your experience at all.

Sharon Beesley [00:20:06] And it's not that I was like this bubbling idiot. Like I, I really was involved. Like I, I felt like I knew what was going on and I agreed with it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Any other thing about your life prior to College.

Sharon Beesley [00:20:27] Oh, yeah. Well, there's a huge one that we've completely missed. My mom was diagnosed with cancer when I was 10. And so I think that shapes to. Mortality and like. But again, my mom had cancer, and then when I was in high school, one of her friends got cancer, and I was like, it's okay. She's just gonna go to chemo and she'll be fine. And my mom, like, turned and was like, oh, no, no, no, no. That cancer's really serious. Like, I'm so sorry. I mean, I'm glad that you didn't experience it that bad, but that was a really. Like, my mom had breast cancer, so she lost a breast.

Sharon Beesley [00:21:16] But, like, I know this sounds so weird, but, like, I would still, I would see her without her shirt off and take showers with her. Like, I was only 8 or something. It was like, I. I didn't see it as like, the horrific thing that breast cancer is because my mom's outlook was just like. Well, yeah, you know, she really protected I. I honestly think, like, talking to you all, I was vastly protected.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:42] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:21:43] From the horrors that were going on around me as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] Sounds like they wanted you to have a childhood.

Sharon Beesley [00:21:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:49] What a.

Sharon Beesley [00:21:50] What a good job they did to let me do that, because that's not always the case. It's really hard.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Anything else about your time before college?

Sharon Beesley [00:21:59] Oh, yeah. And then she got breast cancer again when I was like a senior in high school. And so she died by the time I, like, she did her. Like, I had to go to, like, we visit her in the hospital for prom. So, like, my prom photos are in the hospital. And then I. She couldn't go to my graduation, so my principal, bless his heart, did a whole ceremony at the hospital. And then she died July 3rd. And then what year I went to BYU, Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Oh, no. What year did.

Sharon Beesley [00:22:33] Oh, 2000.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:22:36] And so then in August, I. My. Me and my dad flew out to byu, Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Dang.

Sharon Beesley [00:22:42] And I think at that point, Mormonism became really important because at that point I realized, oh, if I don't follow these rules, I'm actually never going to see her again. And she was awesome. And so I was like, I need to do Mormonism seriously now. I mean, I have these goals, but now it's like, no, now I really need to hunker down.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Just trying to, like, sink into some empathy. Your mom dying in July of your senior year, and then you going to college in a totally different state as the youngest kid, leaving your dad behind.

Sharon Beesley [00:23:21] That's a lot yeah, but isn't that kind of the narrative of Mormons? Like, we love that shit. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I finally had that story.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] I feel like, like pioneer sacrifice.

Sharon Beesley [00:23:35] Yeah. And I would read all these things and so finally I felt a part of that. And like, it was like a badge of honor. I mean, it was horrible and I was so sad and it was, I know this is like so dumb, but it was the apex of yo mama jokes. And I actually had to tell somebody, like, can you stop saying those? Because it really is a sad. Like my mom just d a month ago. And he was so embarrassed. He was like, of course I would never do that for you. Yeah, but so, yeah, like, I, I was more like, look at, look, look at me go.

Sharon Beesley [00:24:08] Like, look how res. Look, I can do this and use all those tools that Mormon gave me. Like, I'm gonna put it to the test now. Like, okay, you say prayer is going to be the thing that helps through trials. Here we go. I'm gonna pray and Jesus is going to be there for me. Okay, I'll test that one out.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that sounds like you're going to byu, Idaho. Rick's or byu, Idaho.

Sharon Beesley [00:24:44] Yeah, it made the tourist, but yeah,

John Dehlin [00:24:46] it was kind of like it sends you there with determination.

Sharon Beesley [00:24:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Like this. I'm going to Mormon that.

Sharon Beesley [00:24:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] The shit out of this experience I can do.

Sharon Beesley [00:24:55] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:56] So kind of the grief, I should

Sharon Beesley [00:24:58] say more in the heck.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Sorry, Mormon. The heck out of this experience. Go.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:02] It sounds like your grief or loss, like in thinking if you were able to process it at that time versus like metabolize it. It kind of sounds like to me you like metabolized the loss and into like, I am going to do this thing now. I'm like, I'm taking all that energy and all that loss and I'm putting it into this, you know. Yeah. New beginning for myself.

Sharon Beesley [00:25:32] Yeah. Because Mormonism promises a lot. Like they give you a plan of happiness. And I for the first time felt like real sadness. And so I was like, okay, let's see what that plan of happiness is about. And if it's real and if your

John Dehlin [00:25:53] goal is to find a cute boy to marry and to be a stay at home mom, there would not have been a better probably structure that was designed to support that goal.

Sharon Beesley [00:26:03] And I found him so quickly.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:06] Talk about effective. It took me a few tries but

Sharon Beesley [00:26:11] like, I got like, by my third boyfriend, I was like, got it.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] So Rexburg, Idaho.

Sharon Beesley [00:26:18] Yeah, he's, he's.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] And, and so you meet him as a freshman.

Sharon Beesley [00:26:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:26:26] Yeah. Yes. I, I, I think I, I think it was a freshman year. I met him quick. I met him real. It was Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day of my freshman year. Yeah. Because we went on that weekend. I was so excited because I had a, Like a. I had something romantic on Valentine's Day, so I was really proud of that.

From Florida to Idaho: A Cultural Shift

Margi Dehlin [00:26:46] Can we talk about just cultural. The cultural difference between Florida. Yes. And Idaho? Like.

Sharon Beesley [00:26:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:54] Do you remember during that time, arriving in Idaho, going to classes that first semester, what did you feel? What did you observe?

Sharon Beesley [00:27:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:04] With the church in Florida versus the church in Idaho, and even just general cultural.

Sharon Beesley [00:27:09] Yeah. Like, I didn't realize that Mormons, like, actually didn't wear short shorts. Like, I, I thought that was, like, one of those things. And I remember just walking around campus on the first with short shorts, like, Florida shorts. Like, But I wasn't doing it to be. I was like. And then I'm like, okay, you do that. And then I realized, like, people actually, I. I had never done the. The devotional. Christmas devotional. And people acting like that was. I'm like, I don't know what that is. What is it you're going to? What? Oh, and conferences. Nobody went to conferences like that. But that was, like, a standard thing at byu.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:44] Idaho, like, general conference. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:27:46] That was like a free weekend.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:49] Oh, yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:27:49] Yeah. Like, people go to this. Take it seriously, take notes.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:54] So you guys. You're like, Y' all are so serious, taking notes even.

Sharon Beesley [00:27:59] I probably eventually did, just to be, like, with them, because you do. But, like, also, like, the girls were so beautiful. Like, I mean, they know how to put themselves together in ways that I was not. Like, in Florida, it's a little bit more chill, but, like, Utah, Idaho, girls, like, no hair, makeup, clothing. And it was tough because I was like, I can't compete with that. Like, the guys had it so good. Like, they, they know, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:37] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:28:37] They're beautiful. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:39] And I think it's a certain type of beauty. It's a certain look that somehow everyone gets the memo.

Sharon Beesley [00:28:46] Right. And so I was a little bit off. So I didn't really. Sometimes it was a little tricky for me because I didn't really look like or know how to do that. I probably tried, but, like, yeah, it was just, like, I was impressed.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:59] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:29:00] Their ability to put themselves together.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:01] They want to be chosen. They're like, yeah, they are primed. They are being chosen.

Sharon Beesley [00:29:07] Yeah. I mean, I thought I was like. But they didn't. One they were like, yeah, to 11,

John Dehlin [00:29:15] as they say, experts.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:17] So did you feel any difficulty fitting in or connecting with roommates or.

Sharon Beesley [00:29:24] How was that part? Yeah. So for BYU Idaho, I had to write an essay about my personality. And so I was just like, I'm not really into church hymns. And, like, I thought I was, like, just being quirky and cute, but it was. And I read it to my mom in the hospital, and she was like, I really wish you would have had me read that before you sent it, because it came across as being, like, I wanted to get put in a room with, like, Mormons that were, like, fun. But my essay turned out to be, like, a red flag, and I was put into a ra.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] Well, that was in your application essay.

Sharon Beesley [00:30:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:03] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:30:03] Like, I didn't like church hymns because I just was like, I. I thought that would be funny and, like, put me with cool people, but it actually just put me with, like, ultra. No, no. Just, like, the ones that are struggling mentally. Like, I think I sounded a little unhinged in my essay. So there was, like, the special. The special folks that needed to go into the ra, Maybe need extra support group. They thought I needed a little extra.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] You were special needs?

Sharon Beesley [00:30:32] Yeah. So I went a little bit, too. So that's. But that's the thing. Like, I didn't realize, like, what was okay. More like, what was okay to joke around with and what wasn't. And so I was a little bit off in that sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:47] Yeah. And it sounds like, too, that you had,

Sharon Beesley [00:30:53] like.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:53] You seem very kind of whimsical and, you know, this seriousness that oftentimes. An intensity that oftentimes, I think, can accompany a Mormon upbringing, it feels like you're. You escaped that you had your own version, and it's arriving, like, a little bit more in Idaho. Is that right?

Sharon Beesley [00:31:15] Yeah, because it's a more serious school. It's more conservative. You don't. This. The pool is smaller there, I feel like. So you're gonna get more intense Mormons.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:31:25] And I was living on campus, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:27] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] So there. I know. I. I went to BYU from Texas, and I noticed that for a lot of people raised back east or basically outside, let's call it the Jello Belt or the Book of Mormon belt, sometimes there's, like, this culture shock of, like, these people live in a bubble. These people are too strict, they're too intense. Sometimes they're superficial. There's a perception that kind of the Utah, Idaho, Arizona Mormons might be superficial or hypocritical. Did you experience any of those feelings coming from Florida?

Sharon Beesley [00:32:07] Probably, but I. I wouldn't hang out with those people. Like, I wouldn't. That's not who I would seek out.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:32:15] So I didn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:16] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:32:16] I just wouldn't spend time with them. And maybe there was a part of me, too, that admired that, because there's a part of me that, like, was like, oh, maybe that's the goal. Maybe I. Maybe I need to tone it down a bit. Maybe I do need to be more like that. Maybe they have it the right way. Like, there wasn't a. A judgment against that, because I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:32:38] I. I was here to learn how to be a Mormon and be in the. The Mecca of it all.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Yeah. Yeah. Little like Dorothy and Oz a little bit.

Sharon Beesley [00:32:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you met him in February2221, is that right?

Sharon Beesley [00:32:56] Probably. Yeah. Yeah. And people would come up to me and be like, oh, my God, you're dating Rob Beasley.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] He's the best.

Sharon Beesley [00:33:04] I'm like, okay, he's all right. He's cool. But, like, it took me a while to, like, get on with, because he is. He is. He's very much like me. Like, we're kind of oddballs and not always the. Maybe we're a little bit of an acquired flavor.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:26] He.

Sharon Beesley [00:33:26] He was raised in California, so we had, like, our own flavor of Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:32] That's right. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] And I should have asked you this before. I'm dying to know what music you were into in high school and college, just because that seems like. I'm guessing music was important to you.

Sharon Beesley [00:33:46] It was so important to me. Great.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:49] She's like, thanks for asking, John.

Sharon Beesley [00:33:51] Oh, nobody has asked me this. Oh, man. Letters to Cleo. It's this Boston band, and they still are touring, and I saw them this year, and they are just as magical as ever.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:34:08] Mazzy Star, which has made a big comeback, and I get to hear her again, which is wonderful. Letters to the Mazzy Star, Elastica. All those, like, really, like, girl angsty kind of bands. The Cranberries. And then. And then because of my older sister, remember? Which is like, those are. I mean, that's the album I listened to after my mom died, because the one that has Losing My Religion. No, good one. It. Maybe it's on the album, but that's a real sad one that Everybody hurts. Everybody hurts. Because I just feel like I could listen to that and just be like, just. Just get into it and not. Yeah. So that was the album I listened to on the way Home.

John Dehlin [00:34:59] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:34:59] Yeah, yeah. Music was a huge part, but also there was a window where I would really get into. Remember when EFY used to make the CD soundtracks? I would just come home and just listen to that. But I knew it was corny, but, like, it still would just bring me back to that week at efy.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:18] That's right, the dances.

Sharon Beesley [00:35:21] Yeah, those songs that just tug at your heartstrings. So for like a week or two every year, it would be the EFY soundtrack.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Fun.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:33] I'm curious about classes. A little bit of, like, during that time, you know, did you take art classes? Were you pretty much on, like, the general. What is that?

Sharon Beesley [00:35:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember taking a religion class and the teacher taught us how to write a lesson for church. And it was really good for me to learn how to do that, like, how these. Because he was like, it's just. You just put everything should be doctorate and quote. So that was really helpful to, like, know if I ever were going to teach. I have. He. He did a really good job teaching me that. I did take an art class, and it was just a miss by the professor, he said, because I told him, I'm like, I really like art, but I'm not really good at drawing.

Sharon Beesley [00:36:22] So, like. And it was so easy. He could have said, I could have been an interior decorator. I could have done art. Like, it was just a missed opportunity. And he was like, well, you probably shouldn't be an art major. It's fine. So then I went hard into English.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:38] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:36:38] And that. And then with English, you have to take a span. You have to take a language. And that's where I met my sister, future sister in law. And she saw me in the class and was like, oh, my God, this girl has got to meet my brother. He is like, they're gonna totally hit it off. And so.

Sharon Beesley [00:37:02] Which is weird because the class was teaching us about mother and father. And I completely. I ended up dropping the class because I couldn't handle learning how to say my mom is. Is this. Or my dad, because my mom had just died. And so I was just like, bawling in class. But then before I dropped it, she pinned me in the corner and was like, hey, you need to meet my brother. He's playing tonight at a show and he was wearing, like, a cowboy suit with a big buckle and a cowboy belt. I mean, a cowboy hat. And I had actually already heard his band and I loved it, so.

Sharon Beesley [00:37:39] Because at that time, everybody was doing Dave Matthews Band, but he was doing more Like Johnny Cash, rock and roll stuff. So that's why I really liked his band, because it wasn't that sentiment. Sentimental Dave Matthews stuff that was so bad at the time. And.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:37:57] And we met the next day and I didn't recognize him because he wasn't in his costume. And I have a journal entry where I write after meeting him at lunch. I was like, I don't know if he is the guy I'm gonna marry, but I hope someday that I marry a guy that looks at me the way he does for the rest of my life. Because he is just this way of, like, looking at you and just like, being you're everything in that moment. And so, yeah, I love that journal entry. I have it framed.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:29] Oh, I love that.

Sharon Beesley [00:38:30] Yeah. The fall of journal entry is after the date. And I was like, oh, never mind. He's not the guy. So I don't know where that journal entry is. But, like, I just. I knew there was something special there.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:40] That's not framed. That one.

Sharon Beesley [00:38:42] No, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] I have a really important question. Did he sing Ring of Fire?

Sharon Beesley [00:38:47] Yes, of course.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Yes. Into a burning ring of Fire. Yeah, that's my favorite Johnny Cash song.

Sharon Beesley [00:38:53] Well, he did it.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] And it burns, burns, burns.

Sharon Beesley [00:38:57] I think he was the draw. He was the guitar player. His cousin was singing. So I think the cousin played the

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Ring of Fire far.

Sharon Beesley [00:39:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Had to. Just had to know.

Sharon Beesley [00:39:05] Of course he did.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] All right, Karaoke. That's my love language. So what is karaoke?

Sharon Beesley [00:39:11] Oh, well, there you go.

Meeting Rob, Getting Married in the Temple

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Okay, so you meet Rob. Rob.

Sharon Beesley [00:39:17] Rob Beasley.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] And was it a short engagement? I don't mean to be stereotypically, you know.

Sharon Beesley [00:39:22] No, we kind of like lost contact. Then I dated some other dude. He went off. I think he did like one of those back trip backpacking things and was gone for a bit. And then he came back to byu, Idaho.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:39] No.

Sharon Beesley [00:39:39] How did it work? Oh, my God, I'm forgetting my love story. I think what happened was. Oh, yeah, then we kind of got back together, but we were so, like, we are. We are a very dynamic couple. Like, we are firecrackers, the both of us. So sometimes that really works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it makes it so that there's a. Especially if you're like 19, 20, and you don't know how to rein it in, rein your emotions in. We were a little bit at each other and it was a little bit so. So it wasn't always. Always so, like, pleasant for us, but it was exciting.

Sharon Beesley [00:40:19] And then my. My dad remarried and he came down and. But one of the things I did really love about him is he loved the church. And so all those Mormon dreams I had about, like, okay, if I marry this guy, I'm gonna do the temple. He's gonna. He's the one that will, like, fulfill that for me.

Sharon Beesley [00:40:45] Very serious about the church, but also kind of weird and quirky and, like, silly. And my. My dad gets married and goes off on a honeymoon. And so I'm in Florida by myself, and so I just call him, and I'm like, hey, you should come here.

Sharon Beesley [00:41:02] And I'm all alone. I'm kind of sad my dad's not there. And he's like, okay, I'll do it. And I go to pick him up from the airport, and he's, like, struggling to get his suitcase off of the thing, and it's all fumbling. And I was like, I. This thought came to me was like, oh, man, I'm gonna marry this guy.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:25] This. This.

Sharon Beesley [00:41:26] This is it. This is the guy. And so he. We have this really great week together, and we kind of both know it. We're still so young. I'm, like, 20, but that's the way it is in marriage and Mormonism. And by the time I'm 21, we're married, we go off to BYU Hawaii together. He proposes to me on the beach with when the Sun's Rising. It's a giant ring that we did not have the money for. And it was really cool. Like, we were. It was good.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:06] And you were living on plan, like you.

Sharon Beesley [00:42:09] Oh, my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:10] Plan that you had.

Sharon Beesley [00:42:11] Right on time. Right. Because at 21, as Mormon women at the time, and it's different now, but, like, it was a choice. You either were engaged and getting married. I know that there was many options there, but it felt like I had limited options. To me, it was either I'm planning to go on a mission, or I'm engaged. And I got the engagement option, which was the. You know, I know it's mean and whatever, but that's the one that you want.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:40] And you got the Hawaii. That was kind of part of your plan.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:43] Right?

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Yes.

Sharon Beesley [00:42:44] We were both in Hawaii together.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Which temple?

Sharon Beesley [00:42:50] Oh, so this is another badge of honor. But, like, again, as more thinking about your dad. Yeah. It was like. Well, that. I was like, well, dad, there's a very easy solution here. If you want to see me get married, you could be a Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:09] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] It's your choice.

Sharon Beesley [00:43:11] It's your choice. And so what did I do? I got to get married in the temple with no family or friends, just me. And so I, at the time, thought I was like, the shit. Like, look at me. Look how. Look at me, Mormon. I did this because my. My older sister probably could have, but she was pregnant and, like, couldn't fly. It was too late in her pregnancy. But I was like, it's all right. I'm gonna. This is gonna be part of my story.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] It's, like, pioneer stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:48] It is adversity.

Sharon Beesley [00:43:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:49] You're doing it even though you're like, look.

Sharon Beesley [00:43:53] Look how.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:55] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:43:56] Yeah. But that's how I felt.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] Was your. Did your dad make you feel like he was all beat up about it, or was he pretty chill about it?

Sharon Beesley [00:44:05] I mean, so graceful about it. I mean, he was like, I'm not gonna go to the temple grounds. That was just insulting to him. And I was like, okay. But he went to the. He flew out to California, went to the reception afterwards and participated there. And gosh it.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] This is Rob turf. Rob.

Sharon Beesley [00:44:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] What temple?

Sharon Beesley [00:44:31] Oakland.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:44:32] He had the whole thing filled. His family goes back for generations. I mean, Beasley is in the hymn hymnals. Like, Ebenezer Beasley. I mean, like, he is. I felt like I was so lucky

John Dehlin [00:44:45] marrying into Mormon royalty.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:47] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:44:47] And look at. They fill a whole temple room. Like, how. How lucky that I get to be a part of this.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Early Married Life and Motherhood

Margi Dehlin [00:44:57] So I'm curious that day if you felt the loss of your mom. Like, how loss turned up in your life. Yeah. If it showed up in. In.

Sharon Beesley [00:45:08] It was. But, like, again, I just. I felt like I was doing the things to get back to her. So it felt really hopeful that I was like, no, no, no. Yes. She's not here right now, but I'm gonna see her because I'm doing.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] This is how.

Sharon Beesley [00:45:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:23] Got it.

Sharon Beesley [00:45:23] Here I go. This is step one to, like, see her again. So while she's not here right now, and it's kind of weird, I don't really feel her presence. That thing that they're talking. It's okay. I'll see her. I'll actually see her someday.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Yeah. Nice. So did you all finish school at byu? Hawaii.

Sharon Beesley [00:45:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:45:44] Yeah. And I got pregnant. I had the baby I had during school. I graduated. He had a year left of school. So when he's. All of his graduation pictures, I'm like, huge. And then I have my daughter when I'm 23, and she's three weeks old. Her birth certificate is Hawaii. And then she's three weeks old, and we move to California.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:09] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:46:11] And again, just living the dream.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Northern California.

Sharon Beesley [00:46:17] Yeah, it was San Jose.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] Okay. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:19] And did you graduate in English? Yeah. Is that what you.

Sharon Beesley [00:46:22] And the goal was that I was going to be a writer and so I could do that as a mother.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:27] That's right.

Sharon Beesley [00:46:28] Because they don't take any of the creativity or anything out of you. I was going to have it all, like, and I had really great plants. Mormon writer Louise Plummer, I don't even know if she's around or where she is. She. And she was at BYU Hawaii with me. And she was a great mentor of just like how to be a writer without it being Mormon. Just a young adult writer. So that was the plan. And yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Now when I think San Jose, I think tech. You don't have to answer that. Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:01] Yeah. So then my husband goes in to be a tech salesman.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:04] In. In San Jose.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:06] And then we live in that area.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] That's kind of exciting to be in. In San Jose in the early 2000s.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:13] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] I mean, that's, you know, that's where all the big stuff was.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:18] Yeah, he was in it. I. We were living in. And eventually we moved to San Francisco and I met, I mean, the Mormons in San Francisco. I don't know what they're like now, but they were amazing.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] I was going to say, what was the young couple, texting Mormon, young couple, tech scene. Like,

Sharon Beesley [00:47:38] amazing.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:39] Like to this day, like some of like the biggest blogger women came out of that. Like, I mean, I don't know. I know Jordan Fernie from oh Happy Day was in my ward, like, it was just like the coolest ward ever. Mormons are so cool.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:47:57] Like, they are so interesting, especially the ones that live in the city. Well, it's kind of a divide because you have like the dental medical student families and then you have like the people that are there. So there is a little bit of a creativity divide there. But like, I loved my San Francisco ward.

Sharon Beesley [00:48:13] I. They were like, I fit right in. I had just the best time raising my daughter. And then I got pregnant with my twin boys. We were going to move. We were going to, you know, and we were.

Sharon Beesley [00:48:31] Yeah, we were going to move to the. We were going to buy a house in San Francisco because they had this really great deal for first time homeowners. But as soon as that day we found out I was having identical twin boys. And I was so into the church at that time where I felt like, oh my God, I know this is so weird, but I was so excited to have two priesthood Holders. I felt like I was your voice. Yeah. Like God saw me as like a vessel to like produce priesthood holders. Interesting look.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:04] How so do. Do you feel like they're you know to that self at that time that boys had a greater worth than like sons versus daughters. Your expectations.

Sharon Beesley [00:49:20] And I mean I was just. I would. I never talked about it. I mean I kept pretty cool. Like I wonder if I don't think people kind of knew. Right. Like because I realized how that would sound. His dad said it. My, My father in law mentioned it. I was like oh that's nonsense. But like I'm kind of felt like

Margi Dehlin [00:49:41] it so early motherhood years. You would describe them as a good fit. Like how would you describe. How would you describe your experience as a young mother of three? It sounds like.

Sharon Beesley [00:49:57] Did you say before 25. So by the time I was 25 I had all my kids but like I. Another person in the ward was Naomi Radden, her husband's Cascade. Like one of the biggest DJs in the world. Like these are the people that we were going virtuous that like they weren't at the time but they come out of to be like. So I would just like go to the park and we would have play dates with these amazing people that like were would go on to do amazing things. And so the community was really good. Play dates were awesome. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] You were doing the things to see your mom again.

Sharon Beesley [00:50:39] Yeah. And it was not hard. It was like pretty damn good.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Motherhood worked for you even with young kids.

Sharon Beesley [00:50:48] Yeah. Because I kind of liked going to the thing. I like going to the park and sitting outside all day. Like that really worked for me. That was really pretty. I liked like leaving the house in the morning and not coming back and just like packing a bunch of food and just like exhausting the day. That's so. That was so fun for me. I'm not to say it wasn't. I. I like to say I like to set the stage for my kids. Like but like once we were there, I got to see the view of the San Francisco Bridge on a picnic. Like I was like this is pretty awesome. Like and be a stay at home mom.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:51:32] Like.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] You were loving it.

Sharon Beesley [00:51:35] And I have really cool friends.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] Yeah. And a husband with a good job.

Sharon Beesley [00:51:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:39] So that you didn't have to stress about money or.

Sharon Beesley [00:51:43] I mean we did survival.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:45] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:51:45] We probably should have been stressing like we're not good with money. But like I don't know. We just kind of.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:53] Yeah. It.

Sharon Beesley [00:51:55] Everything the church was promising was that the Church was delivering. Okay, yeah.

Beginning to Question the Church

John Dehlin [00:52:01] So what happened next in your morning Journey?

Sharon Beesley [00:52:04] So San Francisco, awesome. We lived in. We moved for a bit then. But up until then, I have to say I was. I know that I lived in Florida and I know I lived in San Francisco. I still looking back, see, I was living in bubbles. My whole social network was Mormon. Then we moved to. Then we moved to the Peninsula, and that is called Belmont. And this is in the San Francisco Bay area.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] Oh, okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:52:33] Okay. Then Prop 8 came.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] Oh, 2008.

Sharon Beesley [00:52:40] Yeah. We were living in San Francisco. We're living in the Bay Area at the time. And so that's when I was like. It was really weird for me because I was like, why is the Church asking us? Getting involved in politics? And, like, some of the coolest people in my ward at that time were like, going up on the stage talking about, like, gay marriage.

John Dehlin [00:53:00] Against it.

Sharon Beesley [00:53:01] Yeah. Because that's at the time we were. We were told to donate to Prop 8. And, and, and some of my friends were.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] And for those who don't know, Prop 8 was trying to do what?

Sharon Beesley [00:53:15] Oppose gay marriage in California.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] Get rid of it. Right. I don't take it away. My understanding is it was there and Prop 8 was to say no.

Sharon Beesley [00:53:23] Yeah, yeah, you're right.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:53:25] And I just was like, really? I was like, that was the first time. I mean, there were things along the way, you know, little like, but you just push them down. But that was the first one where I was like, I don't know about this one. And I still to this day don't know how I voted on that. Like, where I was on that whole situation by the time that came out. But that was where the questioning started.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] And San Francisco is the gayest. Known as the gayest city in the United States. Right?

Sharon Beesley [00:53:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] It was just like, you have known maybe some people.

Sharon Beesley [00:53:59] I had a cousin, Like, I had family like that. Not on my Mormon side, but I was just like, we could make this work. Like, why. Why is the Mormon Church getting all up in arms? Like. And then I talked to the Bishop's wife about it, and she was like, well, if this doesn't pass and he's gonna have to marry Gabe. I mean, he would legally.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] And I'm like, the Bishop would have to perform marriage.

Sharon Beesley [00:54:20] Right, Right. Because it would be illegal for him to deny it or something. And I was like, so, like, why can't. I just didn't understand, like, how the. We couldn't reconcile this, like, why the Church need to get political. It was just like, really strange for me. And then, so then I, I, I was like. But I was so in it. You can't just start having questions when your whole family's in it. When you're in a, you're in a. All your friends are Mormon. It's your whole life. It's how I'm gonna meet my mom again. So, like, I still had to go through all the motions, even though I was like, this Prop 8 thing is weird.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:55:04] And then I went, Then I went on the Internet. And then I, I think at that time there was this. Maybe you made it. I don't know who made it. Was it you?

John Dehlin [00:55:14] Oh, you have to tell me what it is. Chances are, like, for a non.

Sharon Beesley [00:55:18] And there was this cute acronym for, like, Non Believing Mormons. Was that around 2000?

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Like, new order Mormons?

Sharon Beesley [00:55:25] What are they called?

John Dehlin [00:55:26] I don't know. New Order Mormons.

Sharon Beesley [00:55:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:55:30] New Order noms. Yes, that's what it was.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] So this was a board, like an Internet chat board?

Sharon Beesley [00:55:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Or forum.

Sharon Beesley [00:55:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] For people who were New Order Mormons? There were several. But New Order Mormons were ones who didn't believe it was literally the true church.

Sharon Beesley [00:55:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] But who loved it and felt like they could pursue spirituality there. Stayed in the church, but not as literal. One true church believers. Is that it?

Sharon Beesley [00:55:58] Yes. I was so excited to find this, but also frightened. And I deleted my history. I didn't talk to anybody about it. It was. Was like, oh, but. So that was how I reconciled that time in my life. I was like, okay, there is a name for it. There's a group of people. If I wanted to reach out, I could. And I can, I can, I can do Mormonism this way.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] And I didn't start New Order Mormons. I discovered it.

Sharon Beesley [00:56:24] Oh, you did?

John Dehlin [00:56:25] Early on in my faith journey, I found that forum. There's a website and then there was a forum.

Sharon Beesley [00:56:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:30] And I, I participated in it for a long, long time.

Sharon Beesley [00:56:33] Good for you. Did you delete your history?

John Dehlin [00:56:35] No, no, no, no. I was just trying to find anything to help me stay in the church

Sharon Beesley [00:56:40] at the time, and it was great. It really did help me stay in. I didn't go to it often, but I just knowing that it existed was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] And so interestingly, when I was called in for disciplinary council, that's one of the things my stake president. Are you involved in something called New Order Mormons? Are you trying to encourage new. And I'm like, like, no, it's just a support group, you know. But they were, like, really threatened.

Sharon Beesley [00:57:06] Yeah, I I was scared of it.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:57:09] I can see why they were threatened by it.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [00:57:13] So I kind of lived as that way. I kind of read that one day, read it all, and sunk it in. I was like, this is what I'm gonna do. This. I'm gonna reconcile. Then my husband gets a job in New York City. And that sounded fun. So we got. And the boys were three. My daughter was five. And I was like, this is great. They're not strollers. Like, I mean, you know, we can make it work. So we moved to New York City.

Sharon Beesley [00:57:41] Still in the church. But then I got. I met friends that weren't Mormon for the first time. Oh, the way you're saying, honestly, like, And. And this was also the first time where New York City Mormons, Lincoln Center. Nothing against them, but for the first of my life, I wasn't really in sync.

Sharon Beesley [00:58:04] I wasn't. Like every time before then I could get in the ward and figure it out. Get in with girls, and they're lovely, and I still. Probably. If I saw them say, I'd be really happy. But there was just. I was just a little. Not as a. Not as interested.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Was it formal? More formal, a little more uptight, or a little bit more Eastern? Formal?

Sharon Beesley [00:58:30] I cannot put my finger on. There's no reason.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:32] Interesting.

Sharon Beesley [00:58:33] Why? Because they're lovely. They're just as wonderful as. I don't know if it was. It was probably me at the time.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Not pretentious. I guess you don't want to insult your old friends.

Sharon Beesley [00:58:44] No, I don't. I mean, some. But every ward has that. But, like, the ones I'm thinking of, no one, like, really cool. There's no reason why.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [00:58:54] But there was just, like, a little bit, like, I didn't have that incentive. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:01] What it sounds like, too, is that you vibed you were vibing really hard in California. And sometimes I think when you have that experience where it can feel almost like, effortless and you're feeling inspired by people around you. I don't know. Yeah. I'm getting that a little bit, at least from the picnic in the park kind of days. Then when you go to a different city, a different. And it is. It is different.

Sharon Beesley [00:59:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] I do feel like it can make you engage differently. Do you know what I mean? It just kind of hits you in a. In a different way.

Sharon Beesley [00:59:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:39] And I'm wondering if the differentness of just, like, it's. You're not able to really name why. If. If that kind of had to do with it. Were you in a different Stage of life. Do you think that was kind of part of it or do you think it's just sort of unnamable like you. You're not really sure.

Sharon Beesley [00:59:57] I have.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:58] And that's okay. Yeah, that's okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:00:01] I'll probably think of it after I leave today.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:02] I have a question. Just because you're ending up kind of in cities a bit.

Sharon Beesley [01:00:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:07] So would you describe in where you grew up in Florida as a city? Like. Okay, so no.

Sharon Beesley [01:00:12] How.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:13] What's your experience right now of young kids in cities? Because I think that's kind of the

Sharon Beesley [01:00:19] only way to do it if I'm gonna be on the only way for me to do it. I. I couldn't have raised my family in a suburb. The getting into a car, that whole ritual of a car seat. No, no, not for me. So I. Raising kids in the city is. Was. Brought me so much joy and was the way to do it.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] So just because museums and restaurants.

Sharon Beesley [01:00:52] The resources. Yes. And also I think it. I'm sure they do in other spots. I didn't see people when I. Because I. I lived in suburbs, you know, a little bit here and there, but they weren't accessing the parks and I didn't like to plan play dates. And so cities are great for that because you just go to a park and it's just set. They make friends for that hour and then you leave. And you don't have to like arrange and be at a place at a certain time. So that was really good for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:21] Is that so is that how you met non Mormons? Like you were saying, oh, this is the first time I actually. How so?

Sharon Beesley [01:01:30] So, so I was being a good Mormon at the time and mommy blogging was part of our identity and I was like, I'm gonna do. I was in San Francisco and say I'm gonna go to New York and I'm gonna make a mommy blog because. And show like the joys of motherhood and do that thing. I think that was really happening at that time of where we were presenting like a really good image of Mormon women on the Internet.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] I'm a Mormon kind of stuff leading up to the Mitt Romney campaign.

Sharon Beesley [01:01:59] Yes. No, I was in the city when all those came up, like in Times Square. So I was part of that whole like image of like happy Mormon wives.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:09] And Cool.

John Dehlin [01:02:10] Yes.

Sharon Beesley [01:02:10] I think cool was a member of the blog, right?

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Hip.

Sharon Beesley [01:02:13] Uh huh. Yeah, hip and yeah, yeah, yeah. Young and yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started a, A web blog and what was it called? It's still Up, I think so. It's really bad, though. It's like, so 2008, it's called NYC taught me. And so I had. I would use the city as my teacher. And so all the things New York City was teaching me as a mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:43] That's a cool idea.

Sharon Beesley [01:02:44] And I did this post that Jordan Fernie from oh Happy Day, she had a major thing was. She thought was funny. I don't remember what it was. And that's where Joanna Goddard found me. And she reached out and was like, hey, we should hang out. And I said, okay, cool. And.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] And Joanna Goddard's not lds.

Sharon Beesley [01:03:06] She's not, but you would think she was. Like, the reason you asked is there. Like, I'm sure she gets asked that all the time because she also has the same vibe of like, motherhood is amazing, but also there's other things that are amazing about being a woman too. But, like, that's a big part of her sight is just like the joys of motherhood. So a lot of people think that she is.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] Were these proto, trad wife, sort of just like, you know, trad wife now is like women who are proud to stay home and take care of the kids and cook and. And support their working husbands.

Sharon Beesley [01:03:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] Would you say it was kind of proto?

Sharon Beesley [01:03:41] Yes. Yeah. I think I was that.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:03:44] I mean, I'm not like, okay, I get the. I get those when I see them. I'm like. I was like, two degrees from that. Yeah. Like, I could have fallen into that really easily if someone saw. I mean, it was a little bit quirky and a little bit irreverent about it. Like, I'd be one of the ones that were like. But pretty close.

John Dehlin [01:04:02] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:04:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] Okay.

Exposure to New Ideas and Doubt Deepens

Margi Dehlin [01:04:06] So. So you met Joanna Goddard. That's one of the friends you met?

Sharon Beesley [01:04:10] Yes. And she was so happy. Like, I mean, she's human, so she's not like, always happy, but, like, for the most part, like. And so after a while, and she didn't have a religion or believe in God, so I was like, we. I thought we had the hold on the plan of happiness. Like, I know this is it. At the time, I really thought that, like, Mormons had the path, had the way.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:45] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:04:46] And we could access happiness on a level that maybe nobody knows about. But here I was, and I was like, oh, no, she's act. Accessing happiness pretty damn good. Like, she. She's killing it.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:58] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:05:00] And she. And then I had another friend in New York, and I remember her dad died and we went to dinner, and I still believed in like the afterlife. I was gonna see my mom and stuff. And I was like, so you don't think you're ever gonna see your dad again?

Sharon Beesley [01:05:18] Like, what happened? And she's. And she literally said she's like, well, it's just his lights went out when he died. And I was like, you're sitting here eating like chicken and like, you're okay with that? Like, no. We were in a restaurant and I was just like, what. How are you just do. How are you doing that? Like, how are you reconciling that belief? And, and you're. And she was sad, she was grieving, but that wasn't the part. She was grieving like she had reconciled that she'd never seen him again. She was never gonna see him again. And I, I just had never met. I had never talked to anybody that had that interpretation of death.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:03] Right.

Sharon Beesley [01:06:03] And it just got me like my. Oh, okay, maybe there's another. Maybe there's another way here.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] I always quote Mark Twain who said, travel is fatal to prejudice.

Sharon Beesley [01:06:19] Yeah. And I, I know. So. So that kind of. So I. But I still went along with it. Right. But living in New York was the first time that I kind of had an out. Like, no longer did I have My social network was all Mormons. No longer was I in California surrounded by Rob's family. Oh, I could really do it this time. And it be. The stakes were really low.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:48] Yeah. Because you had space. It sounds like you had kind of space to do that, not having family around. And.

Sharon Beesley [01:06:54] Yeah, it wasn't. The culture piece wasn't there, whereas that was the big piece that I was staying with, with this community. That was the big part of their whole draw. It was like, oh, you just stay there for the, for the culture. And I was like, oh. And then. So I'm still going along with it. My husband's kind of getting a sense that like something.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:17] But I.

Sharon Beesley [01:07:17] He doesn't really. But he can kind of sense it. I'm getting annoyed with the, the different parts of the feminist piece. And I was like, why can't I do this? And. But still it was more light hearted and forgiving. Like, because he, he had recognized. He always, he always saw Mormonism way more grayer than I did. I was a true believing, you know, that there's that type. And I was really black and white about Mormonism for so long, whereas he was kind of able to sit with that kind of unknown. So when I would kind of bring up these issues, he wasn't alarmed because he's like, oh, yeah, Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:07:54] I struggle with that too, but it's all right. And so this. The. The. The place where I drew the line in the sand for me was my husband was out on a business trip. I'm at the playground in Riverside park, one of the most beautiful playgrounds in the world.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Is this Brooklyn or what?

Sharon Beesley [01:08:16] This is in Riverside park in Manhattan.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] Okay. Manhattan.

Sharon Beesley [01:08:19] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:08:22] You know, I remember it. The trees were coming over. Don't remember the time of year. It's just we would go there all the time.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] Approximate year.

Sharon Beesley [01:08:28] What?

John Dehlin [01:08:29] Approximate year?

Sharon Beesley [01:08:31] Okay. I'm guessing 2011.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:08:34] To wealth, because I look this up, there is a predominant atheist dies. Chris. I think it's Christopher Hitchens.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:08:43] Around that time. And maybe it's an old post, but Ricky. I'm on Twitter. Ricky Gervais posts something on Twitter. And again, this could be wrong. Somehow I see a compilation of Christopher hitchens Best of 2011. Yeah. But I don't know if it was like, you know, sometimes things get late and you see things later.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:09:05] So I'm around this time, so. And Ricky Gervais is like, you know, I really admire this guy. He was great. So I'm listening to the best of Christopher Hitchens on my phone, pushing my son, and everything he's saying is putting to words what I had thought of. And I finished the video. It's probably, like three minutes long. And I was like, oh, my God, it's all a lie. Like, everything I thought it was really black and white for me at that moment. I mean, it led up to that moment, but I looked up at the trees and I was like, oh, my gosh. It's just all made up.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:49] Wow. And

Sharon Beesley [01:09:53] that was it. I. The thought of it was all made up, was kind of the end for me. And my husband came back that night from a work trip, and I didn't tell him, but we're laying in bed that night, and I'm like, I really have something to tell you. And I was like, I really don't believe in the church. And he was like, any of it? And I was like, yeah, none of it. And I'm.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] Dang.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:16] Wow.

Sharon Beesley [01:10:17] And he was like, okay. And. And I was like. And I'm not. And I'm really not gonna wear. I know this is so extreme, but I said, I'm. I'm not gonna wear the garments anymore. Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] That's so normal.

Sharon Beesley [01:10:29] It's so normal.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] The first thing women think.

Sharon Beesley [01:10:31] Right? I know. And there are reasons.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:35] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:10:36] And he's like, okay, can we just talk about it tomorrow at lunch. And so he, like, got off work. I mean, he, like, met me for lunch.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:45] Okay, wait. Can I pause you just for a second around the. So to understand, you experienced kind of a flip almost of reality in three minutes. Listening. I just think it's really interesting to take a moment because this whole. How this happens for people.

Sharon Beesley [01:11:07] We hear a lot that it has

Margi Dehlin [01:11:09] to do with, like, coming upon material or reading something or. It can be a whole process. It can take people months, some people years. Some.

Sharon Beesley [01:11:17] Like the.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:18] How it happens is it. It varies so much. But I have not heard this particular version. 3 minutes in this way, listening to excerpts of Christopher Hitchens. And you have this. Is it MC Escher, where you would look at a. An illust. A picture and then all of a sudden it flips and you see something else? Or is that him?

Sharon Beesley [01:11:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:42] Or. I'm not sure if that's interesting. Do you, Asher, that. The idea that the art thing where you think you're looking at something and then you. It flips and you actually see something else. It kind of reminds me of this moment with you where you can't unsee it.

Sharon Beesley [01:11:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:57] And it happens. So like, in a moment. So just taking a moment, three minutes.

Sharon Beesley [01:12:04] You have that experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:05] Your husband comes home, you tell him that night. That is also variable. Some people wait and wait, or sometimes years. Yes. Like live. But you tell him right then, hey. And you're having lunch the next day to kind of discuss it. Can we just. Like, that's really something.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] That's. That's fast and unique.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:25] Fast and furious.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] Huh.

Deciding to Leave the Church

Sharon Beesley [01:12:28] So the word that you used was flip. And I don't. So I don't want it to sound like you flip.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:34] Like a reality.

Sharon Beesley [01:12:35] Right, Right. And I want to be clear that it wasn't flippant. Like, just as.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] Like, just to clarify, 180.

Sharon Beesley [01:12:43] Like a 180. And I think it's this way. I'm just doing that for anybody listening because it could come across as insincere, flippant and impulsive.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:54] Right.

Sharon Beesley [01:12:55] And it was not. It was very thoughtful. Like, I. I want to be clear of all the things that led to it too. Right. And that I was in a position. I feel very grateful that I was in a position to even do that, to not have to wait years that I could have the communication with my husband to do it that night.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] It sounds like you're also saying it was a build. It wasn't just all at once.

Sharon Beesley [01:13:21] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:21] Like, to me, it almost feels like you. It was living inside You. You were having all these kind of internal shifts, and what happened in that moment was something that was maybe tipping point.

Sharon Beesley [01:13:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:34] On a level, maybe unconscious. It. It lived inside you, but it wasn't in your awareness. It all became. You were more aware of it. It all. It, like, came to fruition externally in a way.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Talk about that.

Sharon Beesley [01:13:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] You mentioned the LGBT stuff at Prop 8.

Sharon Beesley [01:13:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Were there other things or.

Sharon Beesley [01:13:55] The feminism stuff was really starting to get to me because I knew that there was more to me than what the church was defining.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Oh.

Sharon Beesley [01:14:04] And I remember this one day, I was making my bed and, like, lifting the sheets and doing that thing that you do, and I was like, I know there's more to me than this, but I don't know what it is yet. And I'm gonna find it. But right now, this is it. This is what I'm doing. And this is. But I know I can do more. And I thought. I think I was starting to feel really limited by the Church, and so that really led to that decision, too, of, like,

John Dehlin [01:14:33] limited how?

Sharon Beesley [01:14:34] Like, I wanted to.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:43] I.

Sharon Beesley [01:14:44] You know, it was also the time I was captivated by the. That the woman who was going and doing all that priesthood stuff, that was Kelly. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Ordained women.

Sharon Beesley [01:14:56] Yes. During Ordained women. And I was secretly really admiring the work they were doing and the bravery, and I wanted to be a part of that. Like, they were really doing some cool stuff and bringing up good points, and I didn't feel like I could be a part of them because of my marriage and what that might do to it. And I wanted to protect our marriage. I really do. Like, my husband. Like, I really. I really, I. I was never intending that this would ruin the marriage, but it had the potential to do that.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:32] One thing that's kind of interesting is a lot of the people I hear who have feminist origins to their narrative exit narrative. It's like, from high school or even childhood. It's like, I always wanted to be a doctor. And, you know, the church in high school. I was always bothered that the boys could pass the priesthood, but the girls couldn't. And it never just sat right with me. What's different about your narrative is you were like, you were loving the traditional stay at home mom, and it was even working for you through the point through 2012, 2013, you weren't dissatisfied or even mad at your situation per se. Feeling like you had been ramroded into some choices or choosing against your nature. You were kind of choosing along with your nature all the way along.

Sharon Beesley [01:16:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] That's Interesting.

Sharon Beesley [01:16:27] Worked for me. It really did. And I. I don't think I'm alone there. I think the reason why a lot of people stay is because it works for them, like, naturally. It kind of aligned with a lot of the stuff I want to do anyways. And so, yeah, why would I oppose that?

Margi Dehlin [01:16:40] And I can see this with regard to being friends with Joanna Goddard just from a perception. This is clearly. I don't know her, but. Because what I'm hearing from you is, yes, I enjoy motherhood. I love my kids and the process of that. And. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:16:58] But the.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:58] And though, like, I love it. And I'm more than that. And I want more than that.

Sharon Beesley [01:17:03] And I. It.

John Dehlin [01:17:04] It.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:04] Joanna Goddard seems like you're right.

Sharon Beesley [01:17:06] That type of.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:07] Where she is intentional about parenting. She enjoys her experience parenting. And yeah, she has an. And to her. Right. There are other parts to her. There are other. And so I can really see that happening for you. This is a yes. And yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:17:28] Another thing, too, is that I'm still processing the death of my mother. And I think Mormons. Mormons also do a very good job of celebrating motherhood, especially after losing a mother. I was able to be a mother myself, and she was so. She meant so much to me, and I was able to do that same thing. And so that was also really important to me. That aligned with my values.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] And would it be safe to say ordain woman took care of the church or just ordained women was resonating with how you were naturally evolving yourself or both.

Sharon Beesley [01:18:06] I just. I just love that they were doing it because they weren't when they first started, they were, like, just challenging the church. They weren't trying. Yeah. They were trying to change it from within. That was inspiring to me because that's what I wanted. I was like, I really thought they could do. Was really disappointing. I think it was really hurtful when it kind of fizzled out.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:18:28] And it didn't actually make. I mean, maybe it did and. But it wasn't like the change that

John Dehlin [01:18:32] I was hoping for in 2014. They excommunicated the leader.

Sharon Beesley [01:18:36] That's true.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:37] Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:18:37] Yeah, you're right. And that was really disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So what happened? So did you just leave? Did you stop going?

Telling Her Husband and navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage

Margi Dehlin [01:18:46] Well, you were. Sorry I interrupted you. So you were meeting with your husband for lunch?

Sharon Beesley [01:18:50] Yes. And it's interesting. And I don't know. I don't usually go to my dad for stuff like, I mean, he's a. He's. He's awesome, but he's not like, the one I typically would call. But for some reason, I called him before the meeting, and I was like, dad, I don't want to do. I've kind of made this decision about my life and how I don't want to be wearing the garments anymore. And he knew about garments and stuff like that because my mom had gone through the temple eventually, and I was like, I just. I don't want to be doing it anymore. And he's like, don't do it.

Sharon Beesley [01:19:24] You know, like, he didn't realize. He. He didn't. He knew about garments, but I don't think he realized what I was asking. And so he was just so wildly supportive and like, yeah, you don't wear the garments anymore. Don't wear them. Like, of course you're not. You've made the decision. Stick to that decision. And I was like, really?

John Dehlin [01:19:43] It's kind of Catholic.

Sharon Beesley [01:19:45] Is it? Is it?

John Dehlin [01:19:46] I mean, just, like, do what you do. What you do.

Sharon Beesley [01:19:47] Yeah, you're right. You're right.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:19:49] So then. So then that was just the kind of motivation I needed to stand firm, because I feel like if I hadn't had that conversation with my dad and then I had lunch with my husband, I would have been persuaded a little bit more, but it was really like, no, I'm. I'm just. I'm not doing that anymore. And he was really scared, understandably.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:09] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:20:10] I. We had made promises. I. He kind of was able to see the church in gray, and I was no longer. I. I wasn't capable of doing that, and it was tough.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:28] So during that lunch, what are some of the emotions you kind of felt most from him?

Sharon Beesley [01:20:35] Scared, I think. I think there is this fear that I was gonna leave him.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] Yeah. Cheat on him. Leave him.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:20:46] I think that's really what it comes down to. Like, I was not only done with the church, but I was done with him because that's a big part of his identity. And so I had to really reassure him that, like, that's not what's gonna. I'm still the same person. Like, I still want to do that. I still want to do life with you. Like, that's not me. Leaving the church is not leaving you. And I can understand how that goes hand in hand.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:10] You can?

Sharon Beesley [01:21:11] Yeah. And I also think there was, like, a little bit of, like, the fear. I was gonna, like, start drinking all the time and all that. And, I mean, it's not for me. I don't really care about drinking, but I could See the fear that I was just gonna turn into this whole different person.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:27] Did you have fears in that moment?

Sharon Beesley [01:21:31] I didn't. I was like, I'm still here. Like, I. I know I have this one huge belief system that's changed, but, like, otherwise, I'm like, you. You gotta know, I'm, like, still the same person.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:45] Were you afraid that he would see you differently or if you weren't believing that he would leave you?

Sharon Beesley [01:21:52] Well, I mean, I do understand that it is. If people see it as grounds for divorce, like, I understand, like, if they believe that their way to heaven is going to be true, eternal marriage, and I'm saying, I don't want to do that, and they want to do that, then go, yeah, they have to divorce. I mean, so for you, that was

Margi Dehlin [01:22:18] on the table, like, he could want to divorce.

Sharon Beesley [01:22:20] Yeah, Like, I. I hope it's not, but, like, could be. It'll be devastating. I hope it's not.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] And you had already said that part of your Mormonism was earning your way to. To be with your mom again.

Sharon Beesley [01:22:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] So, like, what kept you from just thought, stopping and saying, sorry, Christopher Hitchens, I'm going to see my mom again, turn off my feminist and other doubts? What kept you from saying, I got to be with my mom? So thoughts stop?

Sharon Beesley [01:22:52] Basically, No, I had to. It was a double. A double loss. It was not only leaving the church, but also losing the belief that I would have to see my mom again. Yeah, it was devastating.

John Dehlin [01:23:02] But see, some people would say, sorry, can't go there. So shut off the doubts. You didn't shut off the doubts.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:09] Because.

Sharon Beesley [01:23:10] Because, honestly, like. And I had to work a lot. I went to a therapist, and up until that point, I had never really felt her presence. And so my therapist had to work on me a lot with, like, how do we incorporate dead people into our lives? How do we feel about that?

Sharon Beesley [01:23:27] And so I was like, well, I already don't feel her presence and don't. So maybe this is just, like, how it's going to be. I'm never going to see my mom again. And also the church isn't true. And now I have to grapple with both things at the same time. I better go to therapy, because there's too many things just too much for one person.

Sharon Beesley [01:23:51] So I did. I went to therapy, and she was amazing. She really helped me integrate Mormonism and not be so angry as we often are. And it's understandable. She wanted me to work on the gifts that Mormonism gave me. And I was like, I'm not ready for that. But, like, I'm too soon.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:20] Too soon?

Sharon Beesley [01:24:21] Well, I mean, no, it was. It was. It was the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:25] Was she a Mormon therapist or not a Mormon?

Sharon Beesley [01:24:27] I loved that. She wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:28] Yeah. That's interesting, because I could really shock

Sharon Beesley [01:24:30] her with some of this stuff, and her eyes would light up and she'd be like, really? And I'd be like, yes. Can you believe that? So that was fun. She was great.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] But she wanted you to embrace the good. Why? What was her. Because that's strategy.

Sharon Beesley [01:24:44] That's the healing. That's.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] So that integration or.

Sharon Beesley [01:24:47] Yeah, yeah. That's, like, gonna be the thing that's gonna move me forward and not have so much resentment and anger is if I look back and see, like, what it did, what it. What it got me, and it's. It's right. It's true, and it works. And you're right. I like it. It actually is effective. It's just really hard.

Gifts, Grief, and Life After Mormonism

Margi Dehlin [01:25:11] So what were some of the things. Gifts that came to you for those.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] Yeah, you have those big, deep sizes. Like, I have to admit that it was good for me. Right. I'm no mean to be.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:20] Yeah. No, but it's like, talk about that.

Sharon Beesley [01:25:22] Okay, well, let's be honest here. I. Okay, I have. I met, like, my husband, who is like, yes, we had our struggles, and we. It was really hard at that time, but, like, we made it out. And, like, we actually really do have fun together. And we've been married for, like, over 20 years. It. And I wouldn't have got that had I not gone to BYU and the church. Like, that was a gift that I got through the Mormon Church for sure. And then my.

Sharon Beesley [01:25:56] My kids are awesome. And the timetable that. I know, it's not set in stone. They would always deny it, but they. They have a pretty aggressive timetable of when you're supposed to get married, have kids, the whole thing. And I got to have, like, their timetable was, like, really encouraging you to have kids young. And so now I'm 43 and an empty. Empty nester. Like, that's a gift of the church.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Like, I. Yeah, you can have kids and then have a career. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] That timing worked.

Sharon Beesley [01:26:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:26:38] And so that was a huge part of it. After I left. After I left, I worked with my therapist, and a big part of our work was like, okay, so what now? Like, motherhood isn't going to be the only thing that defines you. You have other pieces of you. And so we worked on healing, moving on from the church. What am I going to do now.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] And.

Sharon Beesley [01:26:57] And one day I was like, I want to do what you do. And she's like, all right, let's do it. And so she just, like, helped me find the path to becoming a therapist, and that was really helpful for me. And I intentionally, intentionally, like, intention. Initially, I wanted to be a therapist that kind of helps people transition out of Mormonism because I. I had done that or any other religion. But I think once going to school, you kind of become more generalized in your help, and especially living in New York and Connecticut, it's such a niche group. I think maybe if I was a therapist in Utah, I would have a full practice, but of just people leaving the church. But.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] Did you go to Columbia? That's fancy.

Sharon Beesley [01:27:44] I know.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] That's Ivy League.

Sharon Beesley [01:27:46] I. I know.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] That's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:48] Yeah. So remind me where, like, when did you go back to school? Where are we in the story when you did that?

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Also, did you know Allison Schiffler? She is an ex Mormon therapist in Salt Lake. Went to Columbia.

Sharon Beesley [01:28:02] I don't.

John Dehlin [01:28:02] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:28:03] Yeah. Okay. So I've told my husband and.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:11] And things were hard. You kind of talked about that. It was.

Sharon Beesley [01:28:14] It was tough because my kids were coming into baptism age.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:17] Okay, so maybe we'll go back for a minute. So take us into the hard. The things that. Where there was some friction or tension during that time.

Sharon Beesley [01:28:27] So, like, it was. My daughter was coming up on her eighth birthday, and, you know, my therapist, she's. She's amazing even. And I was a little naive. I would. We would come together with these plans of compromise baptisms, like a commitment ceremony or something like that. And of course, that would not fly. Right. Like, it's so obvious. But I thought it was a good compromise at the time. And my husband was like, no, that's. No, we're not doing that. She's either getting baptized or she's not. We're not doing some commitment ceremony.

Sharon Beesley [01:29:02] And so then my daughter just does get baptized in the Mormon church. I kind of just was like, you know what? I can do this. I can. I can go along for the ride for this one and see what happens. And it was weird and.

Sharon Beesley [01:29:19] But I just, like, sat back and we flew to California, and his whole family did it and thought they did it as neutral as possible. But for me, I was like, oh, boy, that was really Mormon. But, yeah, it worked.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:36] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:29:36] For that period, I. I focused on what. Why. I remember what I did. I focused on getting a really pretty dress for her. Like, that was my role in the baptism Was I was just going to get her a beautiful white dress and we made that a whole day and we went and got food and I was hoping that she'd remember that part of the day more than the baptism. So I really went in. All in.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:00] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:30:01] On the dress.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:01] I see. And your relationship with your husband during this time, how would you talk about it during this time of just a lot of, let's say, differentiation, you both are feeling maybe some different things, maybe God knowing.

Sharon Beesley [01:30:17] But also there was like, that piece that, like, I would, it never works, but you try to convince them by sending them just the right clip. Okay. So some of that. Yeah. And I, and I, and I will admit, during this time, I, I did immerse myself into the podcasts that are out there and probably some of yours. There was this other guy, John Larsen. Yes. And he's a little bit more, like, edgy.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:44] Edgy.

Sharon Beesley [01:30:44] And I, I, that's what I was like.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] Oh, swears.

Sharon Beesley [01:30:47] Yeah, he's angry. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna. And so I was like, so I'd send him things. And that never works. I don't recommend it. It only makes them more, like, grounded in their point of view. And so I thought I was, I was a little bit annoying. I met it during that time. I, I, I wanted him to come over and, and he was not doing that on his end. He wasn't sending me stuff. He was, he was more earnest. Like, I remember he came back from church one day and he's like, they lowered the missionary ages for women. And I was like, oh, that's so cool.

Sharon Beesley [01:31:26] And I was like, so, but what is it for men? And he's like, well, it's still 18, but. And it's 19. I don't know. It wasn't equal, but he thought I'd be really excited about that piece. But I found a kink in it and so it didn't actually work out.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:40] So he, at this point, it sounds like he's going to church. Is he taking the kids?

Sharon Beesley [01:31:44] Sometimes.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:45] Sometimes, yeah. Like, and then. Are you staying back?

Sharon Beesley [01:31:47] I'm staying back. We're making it work. I did go once because Mitt Romney showed up and I was like, I'm.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:55] I gotta do.

Sharon Beesley [01:31:56] I put on my Mormon uniform and ran to church because I just had to see, like, what that would be like to be in a church with Mitt Romney. Celebrities. Do anything for them.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] Yeah. Okay. So how did that progress? Did, did is that kind of stayed the same until now or.

Sharon Beesley [01:32:16] No, then. So then I have the, the twin boys that are two years younger. And I think what happened was eventually my husband saw that, like I am actually the same.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:29] So time all.

Sharon Beesley [01:32:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:31] And kind of watching you.

Sharon Beesley [01:32:32] All those fears he had about me were never came true. Those worries there. I'm still here. I still joke around about. I still like the same movies. Like, I, I'm. I don't actually like alcohol or drugs. Like, it's not appealing to me.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] Not pushing for non monogamy. I mean, it's okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:32:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I don't want to go see other men. Like, it's just.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:00] How about your, like the roles thing? Are you still mothering? Are you still kind of embodying the traditional roles? So, so that's the same.

Sharon Beesley [01:33:11] Yes. I mean, I'm going to school and I'm. But yeah, like that, that was, that, that's. That's tough to just stop. I mean, I would love to have said. Yeah, but I literally was the same. Per. Like when I say I was the same, I was the same. I still was doing all the mom stuff. Right. And life.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] I just heard him, other than it sounds like on Sunday.

Sharon Beesley [01:33:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:44] And talking about, you know, the specifics around church. It sounds like his world kind of stayed.

Sharon Beesley [01:33:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:53] Very similar.

Sharon Beesley [01:33:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:54] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:33:55] I was still the one that would pick up the kids from school and had the flexible schedule and all that.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:00] Got it.

Sharon Beesley [01:34:01] Driving them.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:01] Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] How did you settle into a framework around your mom's death? That's a big question. I don't want to get ahead of that.

Sharon Beesley [01:34:14] No, no, it's fine.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:15] Is it happening at this time what he's asking, or is it in the future?

Sharon Beesley [01:34:20] It's ongoing. I think that's how it always is. That's right. For a long, long time I was very, very mad that I didn't get enough time with her. And so this is until, like this is a recent one, that I've finally had the reassurance that I got just enough time with her as I needed. That is my latest kind of breakthrough with her, that she gave me all I needed to know for this life and in return, so. And then underneath all that, I had always had this fear that I also was going to die early because she did. So I've been very worried that.

Sharon Beesley [01:35:03] And then I also got this reassurance that like, what I have given my kids up until this point is enough and that they have been given everything they've needed just like I had been given. I don't. I got that through a Lot of therapy. That peace, that forgiveness that she was taken from me so young. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:28] So you feel. I mean, that's a big one. I mean, reconciling death in the afterlife, death of a loved one, that's one of the top eight existential issues that really drive people into religiosity. And are you. Am I hearing you say it's. Grief is always an ongoing process, but you feel relatively at peace with not just the fact that your mom died and that you may not see her again, but that you die too and your kids will die and.

Sharon Beesley [01:35:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Do you feel like the death issue, the existential issue, has kind of been resolved for you?

Sharon Beesley [01:36:01] Yeah. Like, I feel like we are given enough time, like, whatever it is, we have to kind of just be at peace with. Oh, actually that was enough. What I was given from that person in this life was what I needed. So.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] Nice. Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:36:22] That's been tough because I always felt short. Short.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Like shortchanged.

Sharon Beesley [01:36:27] Shortchanged. Yeah, yeah. In that aspect.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] Did. Did you. You said at some point your husband, your believing husband saw that you were still you and that you weren't gonna become a sex worker, meth addict and all that. Did the mixed faith marriage just no longer become an issue? Or was it an ongoing.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:52] Like, how long did it last?

John Dehlin [01:36:53] Marriage. Mixed faith. That I said. Exhortation. Mixed faith.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:57] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:37:03] Okay. I. That's a good question because it's so fuzzy, right?

John Dehlin [01:37:08] You don't have to answer that.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:09] No, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is this years.

Sharon Beesley [01:37:12] Yeah, definitely years. If we're going to quantify its years of just kind of like, oh, we. And during this time, like, there were blips of going to therapy. Just not long term, but like, some. Some just check ins for communication of,

Margi Dehlin [01:37:31] like, so getting more support. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:37:34] And just normalizing that therapy isn't because our marriage is ending. We just needed to, like, get a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:40] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:37:41] Of help on how to communicate this kind of moment in our life.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:45] Right.

Sharon Beesley [01:37:46] And. And. And especially for me, I came into it a little bit arrogant because I went to Columbia. This is my field of expertise. And when the therapist called me out on things that I was doing, it was tough for me, but I had to recognize, like, no, there are ways that I could be listening better and understanding his perspective.

Reflecting on the Mixed-Faith Marriage Journey

Margi Dehlin [01:38:03] Effy, can we move into this for a minute? Because this is something that's come up as requests from people with regard to our interviews, is taking a little moment around mixed faith marriage situations. So can I ask you if Anything comes to mind real quick about reflecting on that time. Things that didn't work, things that you recommend seemed to work better. Do you mind just doing a few things on each side?

Sharon Beesley [01:38:37] Yes. Okay. So one of the things I'm. I'm. It's very popular right now on the Internet are these debate shows. And. And that is like, I. I feel like sometimes people get confused and they think that that's how it's supposed to be in real life. But that is, like, probably the worst way to communicate ever in an actual marriage. Like, don't bring those debate shows into your marriage, because the studies have shown that the most effective way to get somebody to come to your side of thinking is to not convince them, but to understand their perspective. And so I look back, and if I would have really spent more time listening to my husband and understanding his perspective and reflecting that back, I think I would have had much more success and less tension.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:30] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:39:31] So all those videos that I thought were so smart and those facts and those figures and the how I. My. What I was experiencing and why don't you just see it my way?

Margi Dehlin [01:39:42] Right.

Sharon Beesley [01:39:43] It's not effective.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:44] So what I'm hearing you say, and this is just how my brain works, is having conversations where actually the purpose and the structure is. Okay, so you're gonna tell me what you feel?

Sharon Beesley [01:39:58] Yeah, I'm.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:59] My role right now is I'm going to listen to you and I'm going to reflect back what I hear.

Sharon Beesley [01:40:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:06] Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So that's one of the things. Would that be on the. What you. That would be something that you would recommend?

Sharon Beesley [01:40:13] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:14] A.

Sharon Beesley [01:40:14] To do the convincing. If you at all go down that path, that's where it derails.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:19] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:40:20] And the tension starts debate.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:22] So what not to do. Don't get into debate. Don't get into trying to convince.

Sharon Beesley [01:40:26] Right. Okay. Understanding and just reflecting is so much more effective.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:32] Yeah. What else? Does anything else come to mind? Things you tried that weren't helpful. Things you tried that were very helpful.

Sharon Beesley [01:40:46] Well. Oh, man. You know, it's only been 13 years. Like, all this has happened, but it feels like a lifetime ago. And I just. That would be, like, the one thing in the moment it feels like it's never going to end. And that would be like, just to take a deep breath and to know that this isn't forever. This might feel awful in this moment, but there. There was this one therapist, and a lot of times we described it as a light at the end of the tunnel. And she Described it as, no, there is that tunnel, and there's a light again, but there's also little windows along the way that you kind of have to open up to get. Shed some light. And on the way to your end point.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:32] Oh, that's a great analogy.

Sharon Beesley [01:41:34] So. So just make sure you're opening up little windows, like, of light and don't get caught. Caught in, like, the darkness of the tunnel. And the way to get out of that is to, I think, So hard.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:59] Yeah. Well, what I'm hearing you say is just remembering this idea of impermanence. And I think impermanence can feel like such a painful concept when you're having a really pleasant, beautiful moment. But when things are really difficult in life, you come up against, like, processing difficult times, different difficult emotions. Impermanence can be a really, like, relieving reminder of, like. Yeah, things change.

Sharon Beesley [01:42:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:32] So this likely will not always feel this way.

Sharon Beesley [01:42:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:37] Or be in this exact form.

Sharon Beesley [01:42:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:40] Right now, that's kind of what I'm hearing you say.

Sharon Beesley [01:42:43] Yeah, okay, that's perfect. And then just some practical things. And these are things I always tell my clients. Don't use the word. You. Like, you never hear me. You never, never. Don't use that word. That. That's. Or always. Never, always. I mean, these are just like, the classics that come up. I. Statements. And I mean, those kind of classic therapy techniques. Taking deep breaths, not yelling at each other. Like, that. I grew up in a. Like, an Italian Catholic. Like, yelling was so normalized. And I'm like. And then my therapist would be like, no, we don't do that. And I'm like, oh, okay, here we go. Okay. We're talking without using. Not making demands. You must do. You must. Like, those are just not helpful.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:40] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:43:41] In these situations.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:42] Here's. Here's a question I have for you during this time when communicating with your husband was more difficult. So you're having new ideas, maybe new insights about yourself. I think authenticity and being able to talk to people where you do feel like they hear you or you're supported. Did you have that. Was that something where it was helpful to have friends that weren't Mormon to kind of talk to or what's the balance? This is a balance. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:22] There are times when it's volatile or it can be overwhelming for a spouse when you kind of turn and try to do some of this communication. And yet I'm hearing therapy, which. This is really key for this. Right. You having a place to go where you can actually just get your feelings out. Talk, feel Validated, feel heard. Also have some clarity, hopefully skills on how to kind of move back. But I guess what I'm saying is, did you have relationships, too? Friendship? Like, where were you? Were you supported?

Sharon Beesley [01:44:52] I, I, I really, I get uncomfortable. I, I don't talk to my family or friends about my relationship with my husband. I know lots of people do, and that works. I find for me, it's safest. Just I could talk to my therapist about it, and that would be the least hurtful thing for him.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:15] So to be clear, I was asking, though, about the church stuff. Oh. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, as you're, as you're sorting through church stuff or identity stuff, or like, I want to go to school or things that might in the moment get his nervous system activated. Like, you probably want to do that with care. Your conversations with him. With a great deal of care, a great deal of skill. I was just asking if I probably, I'm listening to.

Sharon Beesley [01:45:43] I probably didn't do it with care is actually what actually happens.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:47] Got it. But I still turn to him then. Yes. And still tried to have a relationship where you're sharing that. That was kind of what I was. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:45:54] A little bit after.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:55] And also, did you do it with friends during the time. Were they aware of this transition for you? Yeah, I'm stepping away from Mormonism or. Oh, I'm feeling. Or was that something that you kind of kept private as well? And maybe for the therapist and your husband, just trying to get a sense

Sharon Beesley [01:46:10] for how you navigated. I am a very, I think what makes therapy and probably appealing to me is I really even doing this. I'm not, I don't need a lot of,

Margi Dehlin [01:46:26] Like, verbal processing.

Sharon Beesley [01:46:29] Verbal processing. I need it with my husband, and I need it with my therapist. And then lightly with some of my friends. Like, I, they'll even tell you they'll be like, I wish Aaron would. You know, they, they're available, but I, I keep it pretty, pretty closed.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:44] Yep. Got it.

Sharon Beesley [01:46:45] So I just find that kind of. Not my husband, though. I'll tell him anything. And I think that's probably what caused tension because I was like, why don't you understand and listen.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:59] Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Sharon Beesley [01:47:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:02] This desire to be seen and heard by him.

Sharon Beesley [01:47:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:06] It's kind of. You directed it in a special way. That intimacy for him. It was for him. And what I'm hearing is, you know, keeping it a little bit more private. Keeping it between the two of you. Yeah. And kind of a therapist that's kind of What I'm hearing. Okay.

Sharon Beesley [01:47:25] Yeah. And, like, one time his sister reached out and you were asking me questions, and I was like, yeah, it's really none of your business. And I didn't really engage with her. I. I haven't really engaged with any of his friends. Like. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:40] So I remember you talking about coping at one point and talking about moving your body. Did this arise during this time? It was this part of coping and helping you. I'm just curious. The correlation, the overlap. I know working out is something that emerged and has been important to your story. Did it happen during this time?

Sharon Beesley [01:48:04] Yeah. I trained for the New York City Marathon, and that was a huge part of this Mormon transition, working through processing, and it ended up being like the one that had a Hurricane Sandy, so it got canceled. And so. And I was running with the honor of my mother, and I was like, this is going to. And. And then the church and my mom, and then it got canceled. And so it was disappointing that that didn't work out. I didn't get that closure and that resolution that I wanted with that. Yeah, but. Sorry. It was a good experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:38] That's right.

Sharon Beesley [01:48:39] Running. Running is a really good way to cope for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] So you chose as kind of a theme or a metaphor.

Sharon Beesley [01:48:52] Oh, yeah. Let's get back to it.

John Dehlin [01:48:54] Yeah. So, like, I mean, and if it's okay, I'll just trace it. So you were in the Garden of Eden, which was Mormonism.

Sharon Beesley [01:49:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] And this is. This is actually a metaphor I've heard since the 70s there. There have been thoughtful Mormon scholars that have actually said that, like, having a awakening or being born again or having even a faith crisis is a lot like Eve eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And immediately what happens, her eyes are opened, but then she's cast out of the garden, which is this comfortable, easy, limited in knowledge, limited perspective, sort of paradigm. Adam kind of gets drug along. He didn't really want it, but he could struggle along anyway. You're cast out into the lone and dreary world, metaphorically, where there are allegedly thorns and thistles and noxious weeds. You know, so to stick with the metaphor, and that's. That could be your reconstruction, where now you're like, whoa, how do I rebuild? What's my worldview? What do I do?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:07] How do I garden here?

John Dehlin [01:50:08] Yeah, yeah. And then you have to decide, am I going to wander aimlessly? Am I going to build a shack to live in? Am I going to build a mansion? Do I want to try and recreate A garden. So take it from here.

Sharon Beesley [01:50:20] Yeah. And I think it. I think that is the choice we have as parents. And what my mom did for me, she chose her garden was the Mormon Church.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:34] Yes.

Sharon Beesley [01:50:35] And I got older and realized that is not the garden that I want to be raising my kids in. I want a different garden, and so I got to choose that. And now that they're becoming adults, they get to choose if they have kids or not, where their gardens get to grow. And it's just this ongoing process. And so that was another part of my healing process. I'm not mad at my mom. She really did think she was doing a good job, just like I do. And so I can't. I can't sit here and just be all mad that that was the garden that she thought was right, because she honestly did. She wasn't doing it. And it did. It grew some amazing things, some surprising things.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:21] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [01:51:22] That she didn't expect.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:23] That's right.

Sharon Beesley [01:51:25] That's what gardening is. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:51:27] So what. Put some meat on the bones of. What it means metaphorically, to build a garden. What garden did you build? What did you plant in your garden?

Sharon Beesley [01:51:38] In my actual garden.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:40] Oh, no, we're still doing metaphorical gardening.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] Maybe gardening was part of your gardening.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:46] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:49] Like, what did you. Okay, I'll frame it this way. So religion often provides friendship, community, meaning, purpose, spirituality, morality, resolutions about death in the afterlife. Those are some of the main things that people find.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] And. And just to be honest, community is usually the biggest thing that people need, but also friends and then also some sort of structure. And again, meaning and purpose. So you already talked about resolving death in the afterlife. That's one of the big eight, as I call it. But there's lots of others. Friendship, community, meaning, purpose, morality, spirituality. Let's say those are the. How did you. How did. How did you. What did you plant in your garden? You pull up all the. Whatever you were growing in your Mormon garden.

Sharon Beesley [01:52:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] How did. What did you replant in the.

Sharon Beesley [01:52:43] So I. I planted. I believe choice and freedom for my kids, that they really do have the entire world opened up to them of what they want to do in a way that I did. I had. I. I was limited in my choices. And so to provide that for them, who they want to love, where they want to go to school, who they want to love is a big one for me. That I gave them that gift and that they could discover that for themselves and what that means.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:22] Yeah. Yeah.

Finding Meaning and Joy Without Religion

John Dehlin [01:53:25] So I've been in dialogue with a prominent Mormon apologist influencer who really hates ex Mormon influencers. And this is his argument. I'm just giving you something to respond. His argument is when people don't have God in Jesus, they most often turn to debauchery, they turn to drugs, they turn to sex. They have no reason to be a moral, ethical person.

John Dehlin [01:54:00] They don't have a sense of meaning and purpose. They're often Moraless rudderless. And then, you know, their kids come up, oh, and they get enticed by the, the things of the world. And he would say transgenderism and he would say wokeness and he would say secularism and anti family messages.

John Dehlin [01:54:27] And then he would say that these people most often get lost or if they had the benefit of a Mormon upbringing, maybe they stay ethical and moral and have a decent sense of quality of life, but they don't have anything to give their children of the similar types of frameworks. And so then their children are rudderless or secular or confused about their gender or their sexuality.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] And so John, you know, and he's. There's always this sort of implication that it's Mormon stories that takes people out of the church or even that it's the CES letter or John Larsen. Yeah, it's not that people like which, which I found, you know, 90%, 90 plus percent of my audience loses their faith before they find Mormon stories. Mormon stories just helps give them narratives and support to build their garden. That's how I think of it. But in his mind, you know, it's us that take people out and then we don't give them anything to replace it with. So they just wander around in a world of secular hedonism and then they don't have anything healthy to offer their kids. What would you respond to that argument? I know that's a lot.

Sharon Beesley [01:55:46] Margi's like, no, my, like, I, I'm like, I'm like feeling so, like I have butterflies in my stomach. Is he, is he actually meeting these people? Like, I, I won. It's coming across like he may know

John Dehlin [01:56:01] a few of his family members that left and maybe they got divorced or maybe.

Sharon Beesley [01:56:04] But is he really sitting with them? Like, does he, does he really talk to them? Like, I'm just wondering. I feel like this is coming from a very judgmental outsider's perspective and I wonder how much time he really is spending with people outside of his faith. And I would encourage him to do that because that doesn't sound like it's happening.

John Dehlin [01:56:29] Well, let's say I shared him this Interview. What would you. What would you share with. And we don't need to make it about this person. I just.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:35] I would.

John Dehlin [01:56:36] It's a way to help the audience.

Sharon Beesley [01:56:37] I would.

John Dehlin [01:56:38] Let's just say I could frame it another way. There are people thinking, I'm not sure I believe anymore, or I'm. I know I don't believe, but I'm scared to leave.

Sharon Beesley [01:56:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:47] I'm scared to be thrown into the.

Sharon Beesley [01:56:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] The lone and dreary world because there are thorns, thistles, and noxious weeds. How do. How can you help me feel like I'll be okay and more importantly, my kids will be okay?

Sharon Beesley [01:56:59] I can't guarantee that. I don't know if that's the right move for you. If you're in Salt Lake City and your kids are in the school systems here and. And by leaving the church, you're going to have them miss out on all the church activities and the socialness. I don't know if that's the right move for them. Like, they're right. The Mormonism. Mormonism does create communities and structure and a belief system. So, yeah, you really have to think about that. I think I'm very lucky to be living in New York where it didn't matter if I was Mormon or not, because none of those things, that social stuff that you would get a loss at in Utah apply.

Sharon Beesley [01:57:44] They don't apply there. And. And I would tell them, yeah, you. You are leaving an organization that is very structured, that does have a lot. So just don't be surprised that you're gonna feel lonely. I. I would agree with him. I'm not gonna argue with this guy. I'd be like, yeah, Mormonism does a really good job with the social aspect. I had some really fun activities as a kid. And you know what? You got to work at it. You got to find stuff, and you got to do it on your own. Whereas Mormon kind of. Mormonism does give it to you on a platter and tells you, here you go.

Sharon Beesley [01:58:21] Every day of the week, you're gonna have something to do, and you have to realize you're losing that. And I don't take that lightly when people are deciding to stay. Like, I get it. And I. And I. I'm really sorry. Is all I can say is for all those feelings of loneliness, I don't know. I mean, I wish I had. I wish. I wish I had a better answer for him.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] Why don't you just be unfaithful to your husband? Because you don't have God and angels and an Afterlife as a framework or a motivation or as a potential punishment.

Sharon Beesley [01:59:03] I would also say, like, yeah, I get his perspective on that. I don't, I don't know why I have the moral compass that I do and why people do. And I'm just, I'm in it with him. I really like him and we have fun together and I don't want it. Yeah. I, and I don't want to do with anybody else. Like, it's just not what I want to do. And if I did, then I would talk to him about it and I would do it. But I, it's just, I, I just don't want to. I wish it was more profound than that. And I think they were, they are seeking that.

John Dehlin [01:59:45] Maybe they need that.

Sharon Beesley [01:59:46] Yeah. And that's okay. And, and I get it. Like, it was really appealing to me for a long, long time to, to get, I mean, even when I say, like, I give, like I'm giving my kids the world, a Mormon could listen to this and be like, yes, she doesn't have perspective because I'm giving my kid a world, like an actual world. Right. And they could listen to us and be like, oh my gosh, she's so short sighted. Like, she's, she's just thinking of temporal things. But, and so I'm like, yeah, yeah, I get it. I am, I have a different perspective here.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:26] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:00:28] I, I, I come with like complete understanding for that perspective.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] What about this idea that's like, I get this from Christians a lot. They're like, fine, I'm glad people leave the Mormon church, but I'm so sad they give up on Jesus because Jesus gives you resurrection, it gives you an afterlife. Jesus gives you hope. Jesus gives you, you know, a moral framework. Like, don't give up on Jesus. So what would you say to someone who's like, you've lost so much when you give up God and Jesus?

Sharon Beesley [02:00:58] I, I wouldn't argue with them because they believe that I did.

John Dehlin [02:01:03] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:01:04] And so I'm like, I would sit with them, be like, yeah, I could see why you'd be really scared for me. Or sad or sad. Because they actually believe that something you're

Margi Dehlin [02:01:15] doing here that I think is profound is something called perspective taking. Okay. And that's where instead of speaking from just your point of view, defensive and kind of like just speaking and speaking and speaking it, you're actually taking a moment where you, you take in their perspective and you see it from their perspective. And isn't it a psychological. I kind of, I remember learning about it in psychology as a skill, perspective taking as a skill that is necessary for empathy, for actually developing and using empathy. And I just think it's interesting, it was so clear that you. That is something that you're doing in this moment.

Sharon Beesley [02:02:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:03] And I think it's. It's rarer. It feels a little bit rarer these days to be able to do that with someone who profoundly disagrees with you and even judges you.

Sharon Beesley [02:02:17] I. I just have to keep reminding myself they actually believe these things. This is real for them. And how scary is it for them to be sitting with me right now? And I, I believe that it must be so scary and sad.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:38] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:02:41] but what if they're worried about you?

Sharon Beesley [02:02:42] That's okay. You can worry. They're capable of worry and dealing with that. I'm, I'm. I can't. I can't stop them from worrying. They're. I worry about people. It's a, it's automatic. Like, we just do that.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:57] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:02:57] They can be worried. Whoa.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] That's an interesting question. You're on ticket debate.

Sharon Beesley [02:03:01] What is it? Yeah, what is the bait? Like, I know I'm missing something right now.

John Dehlin [02:03:04] No, no, you're not. You're not. You're actually responding perfectly.

Sharon Beesley [02:03:06] No, no. What is the bait, though?

John Dehlin [02:03:08] Well, it's sort of like, it's kind

Margi Dehlin [02:03:10] of trying to alleviate suffering or control other people's experiences.

John Dehlin [02:03:17] It's also an imposition of a worldview, which is, again, you can't be moral with that religion or you can't raise good kids with that religion.

Sharon Beesley [02:03:25] I've heard it a million times.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] Yeah. Yeah. They're trying to put their. They're trying to say, why don't. How can you be at all happy and healthy without adopting their worldview? Right.

Sharon Beesley [02:03:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] And you're just like, oh, that's hard for you.

Sharon Beesley [02:03:41] No, I, I think I have been recently spending a lot of time really listening, I think, to others perspectives, and I, I think it's just really hitting me that they really think that they're. They're the good ones and they're making the good decisions and I'm making bad decisions. They really think that the. And so. But I think I'm the good one. Right. Like, I think I'm making the good decisions. So,

John Dehlin [02:04:11] yeah, it's.

Sharon Beesley [02:04:12] It's hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:14] But what you're not doing is saying you should leave religion, you should stop believing in God and stop believing in Jesus and leave the Mormon Church. You're not.

Sharon Beesley [02:04:21] No, no.

John Dehlin [02:04:24] What if they called you anti Mormon because you're coming on a podcast and saying, you left. So that's anti Mormon.

Sharon Beesley [02:04:30] That's okay. They can. I mean, maybe I am. I don't know. Sure. I. I don't know. I just. I really don't. I don't want. I want people. There are a lot of reasons to stay. And just being in Utah for this past week, I realized there. There were things that I did not experience or cultural things. Just the, The. The. The school is. The one that I keep going back to is that, like, if I were to raise my kids in. In Salt Lake City and not had them go to, like, seminary in the morning, that's a huge social loss for them, and that might have been a miss, and they might lose out on some social stuff that I. I would have taken from them, and I wouldn't have done that.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:16] Like, so the importance of place.

Sharon Beesley [02:05:19] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:20] The importance of context.

Sharon Beesley [02:05:22] Yes. And time. Like, this is. I got luck. I'm in the sliver of time that I was able to do this. I recognize that in the United States at a certain period in a certain location, and that is not afforded to everybody.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:38] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:05:39] I feel very lucky.

Life Now: Relationships, Empty Nest, and Growth

Margi Dehlin [02:05:41] Let me ask you this about the garden that you. I kind of want to go back to also, because I see plants you've planted that you haven't mentioned yet. But I'm curious about how you feel about your planting so far. Like, do you love your garden? Do you feel like your garden has, like, how does it feel to be planting and living in the garden you've created in this moment?

Sharon Beesley [02:06:11] I love parts of it. I think there's some really cool parts. There's some really messy parts. There's some parts that, like, I. I

John Dehlin [02:06:22] really

Sharon Beesley [02:06:25] like my job. I really like where I exercise. I really like my friends. Is this what you're asking?

Margi Dehlin [02:06:34] Yeah. Like. Like, tell me the plan.

John Dehlin [02:06:36] Plants.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:37] Let's go with the garden analogy. Okay. The plants you plant, you look forward to, you enjoy. Let's start there. What are the plants that you've planted in your life?

Sharon Beesley [02:06:48] You're.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:48] You've just mentioned some. Right.

Sharon Beesley [02:06:50] School.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:51] You now have a job. It sounds like. So you love being a therapist.

Sharon Beesley [02:06:54] Love being a therapist.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:55] It sounds like the way you work out. Are you still. Is it orange theory for you? So Orange theory, that community, the structure really works for you. What are some other people. Plants in the garden that you're like, I planted that thing and I love it. Like, it is working for me right now.

Sharon Beesley [02:07:11] I really like the relationships I've built with my kids that, yeah, we have fun things. We do together. Like, we go thrifting, we go. We talk about their relationships.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:30] There's.

Sharon Beesley [02:07:32] They are in the coolest relationships you could ever imagine. And I love hearing about them. There's no kind of judgment there about who. Whatever they want to do with them. Like,

Margi Dehlin [02:07:48] Do you garden?

Sharon Beesley [02:07:50] I feel like I need to do more. Like, I feel like that's what this is getting to. I'm like, I should have more things. I need to senior flat.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:57] Like the flowers.

Sharon Beesley [02:07:58] No, no, no. My. My actual. Actual garden's great. But if we're gonna do this metaphor, I'm like, oh, I need to plant some more.

John Dehlin [02:08:04] What do you plant in your actual garden?

Sharon Beesley [02:08:05] Oh, in my actual garden. Okay, okay, okay. Sunflowers.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:09] Actual garden. Yes, yes, yes.

Sharon Beesley [02:08:11] Sunflowers and cosmos. And then zinnias are like the ones that you just can just. Anyone does flowers. Yes. Then I have in my backyard this little plot of whatever, and I just throw in compost. And last year I threw in a pumpkin. My. My Halloween pumpkin. And kind of let the birds kind of do whatever they want and anything grows there. Like, I have three pumpkins going right now. I have some tomatoes that I didn't plant, but they just show up. And some old sunflowers. Just random stuff.

John Dehlin [02:08:49] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:08:49] So it's. It's very messy. It's not at all, like, tidy.

John Dehlin [02:08:54] Rosenrows.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:55] No.

Sharon Beesley [02:08:56] Although I admire those. It's just. I don't have the organizational skills or the temperament for something like that.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:04] Yeah, it's.

Sharon Beesley [02:09:05] It's quite. I don't have watering lines, so there are a lot of things that die because I don't water them. And then the leaves are all dark on the bottom, but bright green on the top because that's when I remembered to water them. So it's. It's a little bit chaotic and messy and just. It is what it. Yeah, it is. It's fine.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:29] Yeah. How about your relationship with your husband? Would that be something that's part of your current garden that's like, bringing you joy or.

Sharon Beesley [02:09:38] Yes, that. I don't feel that different than we were 20 year girls. Minus that, like, we are better at communicating and. Well, I'm better at communicating, I should say. I have learned a lot of skills along the way that I thought I was really good at, but I definitely let him. I just don't convince him of, like, we went on a trip one, like, recently, and he kept on ordering American food at all the restaurants, and it was so embarrassing for me, but I was just like, you know what? Like, fine. He orders Pizzas and hot dogs. Like, that's what he wants. Whereas, like, before, I might just be, like, kind of judgmental of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:20] That.

Sharon Beesley [02:10:20] And that's just, like a small sampling, but it's kind of like an example of, like, how I just. We both let each other be each other in ways that when you're young and you're married, it's really hard not to like. And I have to say, our kids are now out of the house, and parenting philosophies and values do cause tension. And now that they're gone, we have had, like, less to get on at a. Get at a sink on. Yeah, it does help.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:51] Yeah, I can imagine.

Sharon Beesley [02:10:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:54] Yeah. That's great. Thank you. These are beautiful plants to a garden. Let me do a follow up. And then I wanted to hear kind of the messy about the garden too. Yeah, I think that's important for a full picture. But talk a little bit about, I mean, your newly empty nest, though, right? Did you say a month? Oh, a month. Gosh. Okay. So. Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe you won't have. We'll just see how this goes. You know, in Mormonism, it's sort of like you go from one dependent relationship to another and getting married, particularly as a woman.

Sharon Beesley [02:11:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:39] I feel. And then you're kind of full throttle into family and doing all the things. And so I think one of the things that can go by the wayside is your own identity kind of forming and development as well as experiencing and building a relationship with your partner without a lot of the extras. Right. The extra stresses of kids and roles and all the things. So my question is, has emptiness revealed, you know, new things in the relationship? Because maybe you're less. In this place of busy and doing all the things, it naturally almost brings a focus back to the two people, I feel. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:29] Has that happened and how has it felt? I think there's also loss, you know, particularly. Well, I'll just speak for myself. Like, I think there was a loss of a role that I actually felt very much for as a mom. Yeah. And I'm still a mom, very clearly, but I mean, an era where they're in your home and you're kind of cooking and sharing space and doing all that. Talk to me a little bit about empty nest the last month or two. Maybe your feelings. Yeah. You could do the good and the hard or the. No.

Sharon Beesley [02:13:02] I think one of the biggest things for me is, like, I'm like, I was wondering, like, am I gonna still like this guy? Like, when it's just us, too? And I do, yeah. In the last two months, like, I actually really do like talking to him and, like, hearing his perspective and all of that, so that's been a, Like, a pleasant surprise for me. I do really, like, enjoy his company. I think it's going to be. I think it's going to work out,

John Dehlin [02:13:39] but there's a moment where you're holding your breath. Like, I wonder.

Sharon Beesley [02:13:42] Good. I mean, yeah. Like, I mean. And I think. I think so far, so good that, like, we have been able to hang out together and really enjoy our time. And, like, it's been okay. Like, we still really enjoy. And, like, we both work from home, so we see each other a lot throughout the day, and so it's been good. He knows how I like my coffee, and he goes. Gets to. Gets it for me. Like, there are, like, we. He's just. He plays music all the time. He plays the guitar all the time in the house. We have music in the house, so it does feel like there's still energy.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:26] Life.

Sharon Beesley [02:14:26] Yeah. Yeah. Because we're both at home all the time, so I. I do have that.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:31] That's lovely.

Sharon Beesley [02:14:32] There's things I really like about him still, and I actually think it's like, I. This is. This is the scary book. It always is. Like, people talk like this, and then it goes to shit. But I. I actually think this is gonna, like, really. Yeah, we're really gonna, like. We're really gonna, like this period of our life.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:49] Mm.

Sharon Beesley [02:14:50] So so far.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:52] So far. Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:14:54] And then another thing is, like, I understand. Like, I always thought it was weird when moms would be, like, on their kids for wanting to get to have babies. Like, I was like, why would they do that? But now I get it. I'm like, oh. Because it's like, it's what they're used to, and they just want to have, like, a grandchild now. Like, I understand that whole, like, want or, like, because they do feel like a part of your day. Not that I want my kids to have. I don't care if they have kids or not. It's fine. But.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:25] Yeah. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Okay, so to get back to the garden analogy, what are some of the messy. The messy parts of. Inherent, by the way, in being in the world and. And being alive. But for you, particularly, like, in leaving Eden, trying to create a garden for yourself now in the wider world, what have the messier parts been? The harder parts or

John Dehlin [02:16:01] if any. You don't.

Sharon Beesley [02:16:03] No, no. There's always hard parts,

Margi Dehlin [02:16:10] I think.

Sharon Beesley [02:16:15] You know, navigating, being a A working mom and not having that. I mean, I was having one parent stay at home kind of is helpful. There's all these weird days off. There's sicknesses. There's. It's just a lot. So that, that made our life really flexible when I was doing that, and then when I had to get a job, like, there was more arranging. So that was a challenge that was really hard to navigate. Child care.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:46] Yep.

Sharon Beesley [02:16:46] And how that was going to work. The thing that made it better was that my kids were older, so that there was. It was less expensive if I was going to use it.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:57] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:17:02] You know, it's tough because I, I just, I recognize my. And I'm very grateful that I even get to sit here and talk like this and struggle to come up with, like, hardships. It says a lot.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:17:27] Right.

John Dehlin [02:17:27] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:17:28] Either I'm not being honest with myself, or I.

John Dehlin [02:17:33] You're living your best life. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:36] Or you really have created a garden that fits.

Sharon Beesley [02:17:42] Yeah. And I, I also recognize, like, I'm pretty damn lucky to have fortunate. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:48] Privileged. All the things.

Sharon Beesley [02:17:49] Privileged. Ev. I get it. And it could come across as a little irritating. I get it. So I, And I acknowledge that. I also am very grateful that this is my situation.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:02] Yeah. That.

Sharon Beesley [02:18:05] Even, even bigger than that, though. That, like, even that I, I live. I, I have a brain that can process and gratitude and make sense of the world and just be here with you right now and have this technology and not be fear of my life. Like, to be talking about a religion that I don't agree with. Like, it's pretty amazing.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] Yep.

Embracing Uncertainty and Measuring Happiness

Margi Dehlin [02:18:34] Was it difficult at all for you to move from a place. This is an assumption, by the way, that you ever did. But to move from a place that really valued certainty.

Sharon Beesley [02:18:45] Oh.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:46] Having answers to a place where heart. You're kind of living the question. You're living in a place of continual uncertainty. Do you want to describe what that's been like for you if you relate?

Sharon Beesley [02:18:59] Yeah. No. I, I, I am so. I look back with such fondness of that certainty I had. That was awesome that I got to have certainty at one time in my life. And it's hard. It is hard. That is the appeal of religion, is the certainty.

Sharon Beesley [02:19:23] And that's something you have to give up and. But also it is kind of nice to be in this. I enjoy the uncertainty and the messiness of it all. So I'm okay. I think one of the things often I had to get used to as a therapist was a lot of times my clients would say, I Don't know.

Sharon Beesley [02:19:42] And then I'd be like, okay, so we gotta figure it out. We gotta get to the answer. And now when they say that, I don't push for it. I just let them not know. And I think it helps a lot of times to show them that it's okay not to know.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:57] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:19:58] And because that kind of goes against. Because especially as parents, I think kids first defense, especially when I work with teenagers, a lot of times their first answer is, I don't know. And that can become irritating. And I've kind of just accepted that is a 100 valid answer.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:17] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:20:19] And it's also very exciting to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:22] Yeah. You find it exciting, some of the aspects of not knowing or.

Sharon Beesley [02:20:29] Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I find it, like, kind of limiting when we do know stuff. It's kind of a bummer. It's like, oh, now we don't get to wonder. Like, that was so fun. That's why I'm so nervous about, like, AI and like, technology and getting computer brains in the next hundred years. Like, what a wonderful time that we got to live in of wonder and questions and uncertainty.

John Dehlin [02:20:57] Books or movies, you don't want to know the end.

Sharon Beesley [02:20:59] Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:00] You want to live the book or live the movie.

Sharon Beesley [02:21:02] Right. But how close are we to, like, actually finding out what this all is? Do you think we're still far away?

John Dehlin [02:21:08] I'm not. I'm really impressed with AI And I'm really unimpressed with AI.

Sharon Beesley [02:21:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] Depending on what it's being used for, I'm amazed at how fast I can get a quick answer to a really big question.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:22] But in no way am I thinking, this is great art or, this would be a great screenplay for a movie. Sometimes they can't even answer a basic question accurately.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:32] You're right.

John Dehlin [02:21:33] I was like, hey, hey. Did you know. Hey, Chat. Gbt. Did Margi win a national championship when she ran for byu? And it's like, yep, she sure did.

Sharon Beesley [02:21:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:42] I'm like, margie, did you win a national championship? And she's like, nope. Like, wow. I couldn't even get something very basic. Right. So I don't know.

Sharon Beesley [02:21:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:49] I see it as a long time away from.

Sharon Beesley [02:21:51] I feel like we're like 100 years away from knowing everything. And that's disappointing to me. I love. I love that I got a very

John Dehlin [02:21:58] optimistic worldview, I think. Think.

Sharon Beesley [02:22:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] Like, just think about the complexity of the brain.

Sharon Beesley [02:22:04] I know that we got to live when it was a little clunky. Right.

John Dehlin [02:22:09] Are you thinking 100 years we'll have the Brain figured out. Yeah, maybe.

Sharon Beesley [02:22:13] I, I, I think it's just like, wow. I, I just, I think we're gonna, I think we're gonna figure out a lot of things. Like, I, I like that we kind of right now are living in this time where death exists and all these things. I feel like we're gonna figure all this out.

John Dehlin [02:22:28] Okay.

Sharon Beesley [02:22:28] I don't know, maybe not.

John Dehlin [02:22:30] You're a transhumanist, I think.

Sharon Beesley [02:22:32] I don't know, Maybe I am. Maybe I have a new label. I, I just feel like, I, I just feel really lucky that we get to wonder. And I love it. I think it's fun.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:42] Yeah, yeah, I hear that.

John Dehlin [02:22:45] All right, well, maybe my last question is this. So we did a panel yesterday talking about different types of Mormons and there was, you know, orthodox Mormons and then liberal Mormons and questioning Mormons and cultural Mormons and of course there's ex Mormons and there's this interesting statistic that people who are anything other than an orthodox Mormon on average, report lower levels of self reported happiness or life satisfaction or quality of life.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] And taking it out of the Mormon context, just in the mental health field, there is a general finding that religious people, people who actively attended church, have on average a slightly higher level of reported happiness than people who don't. So I guess my final question is think about your happiest self as a Mormon, your happiest, healthiest self as a Mormon, and then think of your, your happiness and health. Now.

John Dehlin [02:23:59] Okay, do you feel like you traded down, traded across, or traded up in? And let me add, not just health and happiness, but also just joy and well being. Okay, I'll make it a little more complex because some say life isn't about happiness, happiness.

Sharon Beesley [02:24:16] So I'm not gonna argue, I'm not gonna go down that path. I'm just gonna take the question. So this is, this was explained to me one time and this is what resonates with me. They did a study of people that they tested like happiness and then they tested their happiness after

Margi Dehlin [02:24:35] winning the lottery

Sharon Beesley [02:24:36] or no, no, like a trap, like a paraplegic or like some sort of, some sort of health crisis. And they show that there was a dip, like right after, but then eventually it leveled out and so that they were at the same happiness level as they were prior to the accident or whatever it was. And I think that is kind of the case. I feel like there is, that, is that, that's my experience.

John Dehlin [02:25:01] Yeah. Whether it's, whether it's something perceptively catastrophic like being a Paraplegic or something seemingly euphoric.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:11] Like, there's a lottery one too.

Sharon Beesley [02:25:12] There's a. I'm sure there is.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:14] I think the. The idea is there's a set point of happiness that we often return, and

Sharon Beesley [02:25:18] I think I've returned to that level. There was a time, if you would have asked, I would have said lower, and there might have been a time where it was higher. But I honestly, I've. I've been out of it enough that I feel at this point, it's the same.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:30] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:25:31] What. What's wow about that?

John Dehlin [02:25:32] No, it's awesome.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:33] It's just interesting.

John Dehlin [02:25:34] It's your experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:35] Yeah. That's cool.

Closing Reflections and Where to Find Sharon

Margi Dehlin [02:25:38] Is there anything that. That surprises you about kind of being here in this moment or that you feel proud of in this moment, about your journey?

Sharon Beesley [02:25:49] I. This is. This is the most proud of. Is that I honestly don't think about was like, it's been 13 years and since. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Since what?

Sharon Beesley [02:26:03] Since, let's say, that moment. I guess maybe the math is wrong here. Since I've like, the park moment. The park moment.

John Dehlin [02:26:10] Yeah. That's 2012.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:12] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:26:12] Yeah. Okay. And it really. It doesn't. This is more than I've thought. Talked about Mormonism for so long. Like, you really can move on. Right. Like, and I almost. I was thinking about you too, and I was like, you have to have it part of your lives in a way that, like, I really don't. And I really am proud of that. It's not. There's not a Mormon church in my town. I use it as a party trick to bring it up, like. And they'll be like, oh, cool. What's that?

Margi Dehlin [02:26:47] Yeah.

Sharon Beesley [02:26:48] So I feel very proud that it.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:50] It.

Sharon Beesley [02:26:51] I've been able to close that chapter of my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:54] Yeah. Lovely.

John Dehlin [02:26:56] But also, it sounds like, grateful that you had those chapters in your life.

Sharon Beesley [02:27:00] I know.

John Dehlin [02:27:01] Why are you grimace?

Sharon Beesley [02:27:02] Because. Because that's so. Like, if. If. If I was. If I heard that when I was, like, transitioning out, I was way too angry to even consider that, and that would have just been too hunky dory. I am turning this podcast off. Like, I. I can't deal with that, but I.

John Dehlin [02:27:24] The truth is.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] What. What's the truth? You're grateful.

Sharon Beesley [02:27:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:30] For your. For what?

Sharon Beesley [02:27:32] The truth is that I'm grateful for what the church gave me and the life that I have because of the church. It's really. It's a really good one.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:44] Yeah. And I'm also hearing in that too, though, and I think this is really like important to recognize that there are moments in our life where something feels extremely defining. Yeah. That, you know, years later. Not particularly.

Sharon Beesley [02:28:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:05] And I think that's a surprise. Like, I hear that as a bit of a surprise.

Sharon Beesley [02:28:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:11] And I really love that, especially for particularly arduous, painful things that in the moment it could be like, wow, this is really. But then look at you.

Sharon Beesley [02:28:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:24] 10 or 13 years later, you're like, oh, I don't. I don't actually think of it that often.

Sharon Beesley [02:28:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:34] That's powerful.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:34] It is powerful.

John Dehlin [02:28:35] There's probably a lot of people that will feel hopeful to learn that at some point it can actually be in their rear view mirror.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:44] It does.

Sharon Beesley [02:28:44] It really. It can happen. But it helps that I'm so far.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:49] Yeah. It can take time to grow up that life that then. That new life.

Sharon Beesley [02:28:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:55] That

Sharon Beesley [02:28:58] have different interests and different things to think about.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:01] New self. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing a bit.

Sharon Beesley [02:29:05] This has been fun.

John Dehlin [02:29:07] Sharon Beasley. So you. Thank you also for an amazing three, two and a half hours. Okay. And this isn't why you came on, but I like to plug people. So you are licensed as a therapist in what states?

Sharon Beesley [02:29:25] I'm in Connecticut and New York, so I can see clients. I take insurance, all the major ones. So that's helpful for a lot of folks. And you can find me on psychologytoday.com and reach out to me there.

John Dehlin [02:29:40] Do you have a web, like a website, professional website?

Sharon Beesley [02:29:42] Yeah, I use. Alma is the. The website I use. You can find me on there as well.

John Dehlin [02:29:48] And what's your modality?

Sharon Beesley [02:29:50] Cognitive behavioral therapy?

John Dehlin [02:29:51] Cbt.

Sharon Beesley [02:29:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:52] Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you for being willing to share your Mormon story with our audience. I know it's going to be super helpful for tens of thousands of people. At least tens of thousands of people.

Sharon Beesley [02:30:10] Thank you for telling me that now.

John Dehlin [02:30:13] Oh, you wouldn't have wanted to hear that before.

Sharon Beesley [02:30:15] No.

John Dehlin [02:30:15] That would stress you out. Yes. All right. All right, well, thanks. And Margi, thanks for being my co host.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:22] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:30:24] Sharon, did you know that people love Margi as a co host? I get this every day. It's like, John, the best thing you ever did was have Margi as a co host.

Sharon Beesley [02:30:33] I agree. She put me at peace as soon as I came in.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:38] Thank you for that.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] All right, well, thanks, Sharon. And thanks to everyone for joining us today on more stories. Please like and subscribe. Click the bell, whatever. So you're notified of these episodes. If you want, the platforms you can support us on are YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok.

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John Dehlin [02:32:15] Half of our listeners of viewers are never Mormon. And actually we interviewed a woman named KB who, who was raised kind of secular, secular Jew. She lives in New York and she loves Mormon Stories. So I'll. I'll be entered. I'll be surprised. At least some of our Mormon stories audience from New York slash Connecticut don't reach out at some point. So anyway, shout out to them and mostly just be good to each other, be kind to each other, be a peacemaker and a bridge builder and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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