Welcome and Conference Opening

Elna Baker [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org but with joy. We are now very excited to have with us the wonderful and the fabulous Ella Baker. Let's give.

Elna Baker [00:00:44] Before we start, I want to say how just incredible this weekend has been. I feel like the things each one of you has shared. I honestly feel less alone in the world because of your courage to speak up and talk. Yeah, I'm really grateful for everybody and what they've given me.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] I feel the same way. The truth is, I used to really stress out about these events because I wanted to make sure that they were really good. And I realized that in some ways I could cheat because you guys bring so much to these events that if we just sort of get out of the way and let you guys be who you are and share and connect, you'll derive a lot of value out of that. Whether or not our content is flawless. And oftentimes people enjoy the breaks more than they do the actual sessions. So, yes, you guys have made this all wonderful. I agree.

Guest [00:01:52] So

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Elder Baker will be able to introduce yourself better than I can. What I can say is tell us the title of your first book.

Elna Baker's Background and Mormon Singles Life

Elna Baker [00:02:04] The New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance. Did anyone go to that? Was anyone here? They had. It was the Tri State area. All the Mormons in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, Everyone came out. And it was just a real shit show, guys. I did not.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] And tell us just briefly what the book's about. Like your elevator pitch for the book.

Elna Baker [00:02:30] Oh, it's been. So I wrote. I guess it came out about six years ago. I wrote the book as a practicing Mormon. I had a lot of questions, but I was active, faithful, and in a way, writing the book was an opportunity to grapple with that. But it was also a comedy. I mean, one of the stories in it was one year I went to the church dance.

Elna Baker [00:02:55] I wanted to meet, of course. So funny how much my old narrative used to be about meeting a man to be married to, but that was definitely a huge driving force in my life as a young woman. So I went to the dance hoping to meet a guy every year. And I decided, like, this year is the year and I have to have the best costume ever. And it hit me like a flash of light. I was like, oh, I'll be a fortune cookie. And when you pull out the fortune, the fortune will say, you will meet a beautiful woman tonight. At which point I'd be like, look no further.

Elna Baker [00:03:30] No. I basically film this intensely in a super crafty, giant, giant fortune cookie costume. On the way I took the subway and I remember people like laughing at me and screaming at me. And in one of the I got on the one train, I did like, just take it two stops. And this woman from across the train was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. She's like, I got children with me. I got children. I'm so upset.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] I can't.

Elna Baker [00:04:02] Get to the lobby of the building. You know what? I push the elevator and I just happened to glance into that big mirror they have there. And I was like, oh, no. I mean, it is improbable how much I looked like a magician.

Elna Baker [00:04:22] My movement had made it flat. There were all these, like, injuries. I had full. Do I stay? Do I leave? Like, the one is supposed to be upstairs. So I, I, I took my vagina, I stashed it in a broom closet, which is like, basically what we do every time we church.

Elna Baker [00:05:04] So I that story on stage. And anytime I said to anyone who wasn't Mormon, you know, most of the people in the audience, whenever I would say the New York region, you know, I was going to the New York regional Mormon Singles Halloween dance, people would always laugh. And I was like, why is that funny? Weird. But yeah. So that's the origin.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Now you see why you invited a little bit. Is that clear? Beautiful. Who's read her book? Okay. About 30 of you go get a book now. It was a mainstream publisher, right? A big publisher?

Elna Baker [00:05:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Penguin. Penguin, yeah. Big, big time publisher. Really Sold well, as far as I understand. So great book. Since then, Elva's done a lot. She wrote a really brilliant and vulnerable piece in which magazine Thought about Body Image? Yeah, yeah, just about Body Image. And was there surgery was showed a picture. Talk about that.

Elna Baker [00:06:13] Yeah, I, you know, it's like we all have these identities. And in fact, I was reading recently that one of the biggest sources of a loss of confidence is the loss of identity. And I feel like I've grappled with my confidence because I lost my identity as a Mormon. But I also, until I was in my early 20s, around 23, I lost 110 pounds. So I had existed in the world as one type of person. And all of a sudden I had to reinvent who I was based on literally how people reacted to me daily. And because I lost so much weight, I also had massive amounts of skin on my body.

Elna Baker [00:06:55] So I wrote an article about getting surgery for and showed pictures in the article of what it looks like. In a way, we were just talking about the notion of illusions and these illusions you buy into. And I feel like going through my loss of faith in Mormonism and the illusion of the church has also helped me see the illusion that I bought into as a woman and the need for a perfect body. So I write about that as well.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Yeah, the pictures are really powerful, as is the writing always. So just a little bit of an introduction now. I don't know. You are a producer for this American Life. What's the title?

Storytelling Career and This American Life

Elna Baker [00:07:37] I am a producer and a scout. I find stories for the show.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] How many of you have listened to this American Life? Yes. It's definitely one of the most popular, successful podcasts on the planet, next to Mormon stories,

Elna Baker [00:07:50] right? Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] So, yeah. And. And as you know, Ella's working on developing the tv. Talk about that for a second.

Elna Baker [00:08:03] Yeah, I have been writing. I stopped writing about being. I wrote a lot about being Mormon. It was really like any comedian who would just talk about themselves in their life. When I stopped being Mormon, I felt like I couldn't talk about it anymore. And I stopped writing for, like, six years. And I realized that this is still a part of who I am. And I've been writing about it again for the last year and with this intensity. And it's as if I can't stop writing, which is a wonderful feeling. If anyone who's trying to write knows, that is so rare.

Elna Baker [00:08:38] And so I'm writing this a lot of the stories out. And then with my friend Eric, who came the first night, Eric made the show Roseanne, and we pitched this TV show and sold it. So I'm gonna be writing a show about just the really truthful. The only thing I know is my own experience, so I'm going to be writing about my own experience.

Elna Baker [00:09:05] But being here and being around others strengthens. I think sometimes we don't feel like we're allowed these feelings or that we're ungrateful. We had. Often we had happy childhoods or happy families. Sometimes we didn't. But there's doubting your doubts is a common thing that's come up here. And I think we also doubt our own feelings and right to speak about them. Thank you.

Overview of Elna's Faith Transition

John Dehlin [00:09:34] So, Elva, tell us a bit if you had sort of a title or a theme for our discussion today or set of themes Give an overview. And I'm gonna have you do that so then I can explain how the texting is gonna work.

Elna Baker [00:09:46] Okay, cool. So I. What I wanted to talk about was with that loss of identity, and actually I think Tyler covered really the arc of what I've been through in my transition out of Mormonism, just in terms of kind of the steps of it, the stages of it. I've been not Mormon.

Elna Baker [00:10:07] I still am, but I left the. Being an active member of the church seven years ago and have experienced a lot of suffering during that time, a tremendous amount of suffering. And I just see now that a lot of that suffering was unnecessary.

Elna Baker [00:10:25] And if anything I would want to impart here is that it's going to take time. Whatever you're going through is going to take time. But I think that it could have taken three years instead of seven. And everyone is on their own schedule with whatever they're processing. But I think that we punish ourselves in this journey and we don't need to. And so I wanted to talk through sort of the stages of my leaving. And I'll be telling a couple stories. John will ask questions. But I also wanted to open it up to a discussion with everyone because I think that this will be the time will be best used if I'm talking to you about what you're going through and finding the commonalities.

Elna Baker [00:11:10] And so if you, if you want to raise your hand and ask a question when we open it up to questions, that's an option. But also, I was going to give out John's number and people can just start texting questions. So if you're too shy to ask something or you just don't want it to be, you know, it's like the anonymous box, which also. I always got burned at the anonymous box that school when it was like sex ed. I was the one who put the question in that the person would be like somebody professional.

Elna Baker [00:11:41] But so there are no objections here. I asked the most inappropriate question and I want to let you guys have that same freedom. So, John, will you tell. Tell people your phone number?

John Dehlin [00:11:53] My Phone number is 435.

Elna Baker [00:11:55] Wait, wait, wait. Where do you get your phone?

John Dehlin [00:12:00] 435-88-15809. I'll repeat. 435881, 5809.

Elna Baker [00:12:15] And really you can ask me personal questions or you can ask questions about what you're going through. There's like, I promise I'll answer. I mean, there might be some really inappropriate questions about my own personal life that maybe I'll not answer, but I kind of feel like I will.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Yeah. So cool. So this is good. And text him anytime. We will not be able to get to everyone's text. I'm assuming that I'll get more than we're able to handle, but text anyway. We'll get to the things we can. I may throw a question or two in as we're going. Not just wait till the end. It just depends on what comes through.

Guest [00:12:56] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] So, Elna, where do you want to start in the stages of your transition? Where do you want to start?

Elna Baker [00:13:03] I think I'll start. I feel like I was emotionally converted to Mormonism. I had a very big spiritual experience, which I would always go back to, which happened at Trek Mormon Trek. We all had to go out into the woods and get a sexual experience. And I accomplished that and then shared this in testimony meeting. But I also feel like that experience was very real for me.

Elna Baker [00:13:32] I was 16. I was about 265 pounds. I struggled with a lot of feelings of lack of self worth. And I went out into the woods, and I remember sitting on a rock and just saying, like, God, are you real? But also like, do you love me? Like, am I worth anything? And I literally started. I looked up and I saw the sun, like, sort of part through the clouds. And then I just felt physically, I began to rock back and forth, like someone was comforting me. And it was the most love I've ever felt.

Elna Baker [00:14:09] And I think now I can say there was a connection to some sense of being that I will always feel was true in that moment. And that truth was then attached to Mormonism is true. And so I questioned it many, many times. But I could not deny the truth of that moment that I felt.

Elna Baker [00:14:32] And that moment stabilized a lot of my doubt. But then I think I was emotionally deconverted. When I was around 24, I met this guy who was an atheist. I totally fell super hard for him. He challenged a lot of my beliefs. We tried dating, and then we broke up for. I broke up with him for Mormonism. And that planted the seeds of doubt. And I tried to double down and started dating Mormon guy. I moved to Utah. I almost married him.

Elna Baker [00:15:08] And the next seed of doubt was planted when I had gone to the temple, prayed to see if I should marry this guy, and got a very strong answer from God that I should. And after I went there and it totally blew up in my face.

Elna Baker [00:15:22] It took a couple months, but I remember one night, Wait, that answer I got, why did God give me that answer? I don't think That I was meant to be with this person. I don't even think it was a very healthy relationship. And then I began to think about all the pressures in my life at that time to get married, from my family, from the church, from all my female friends also looking to get married. And I began to see that I had convinced myself of this answer because it was what I was supposed to do. And it's a very betraying feeling to realize that you might not have your own best interest at heart.

Elna Baker [00:16:05] And that made me look at every time I gotten an answer and asked myself, what is truth? And do I have an under? And that's actually been a huge challenge, is that when you realize that you have been able to trick yourself, it's very hard to trust yourself in the future.

Elna Baker [00:16:26] So I grappled. But then, of course, I stayed Mormon. And I was Mormon until I was 27. And I wrote my book, and I spent about a year and a half on this book, really writing all of these things out, actually looking at my life and trying to express these stories. And one night I had just basically finished. I had all the stories written out on note cards on my wall. And I looked up at these stories, and it was like I could see my life from above for the first time. And I recognized the pattern. And the pattern was that I would question the church and then double down on it and then have some like, give me a spiritual experience, give me a sign, God, and I'll stay.

Elna Baker [00:17:15] And then I would get that experience or that sign, and I would stay. But it would only last for so long before all the doubts and the things I questioned came up again. And when I recognized the pattern, it was like I was looking at a character, and I thought, oh, this character has a problem in their life, and the problem is that they're Mormons.

Elna Baker [00:17:37] I was like, oh, shoot. And so I decided to take a break from being Mormon for one year. And I borrowed it from seeing the Devil's Playground, the documentary on the Amish where Amish kids get a rum springa. And so I set out on this rum springa for one year, where I told myself I could try anything. Everything I've been abstaining from, and I don't know if that you. Anyone who's experienced that I'm suddenly allowed to do something.

Elna Baker [00:18:08] I at least thought that giving myself permission would create action. And instead, giving myself permission created an extreme sense of paralysis. And it took many months, I would say six, maybe nine months to take a single action. And I began to see how conditioned I was during that time period when I had permission, because I would like to go to, say, order a drink, or I would even order a drink, the drink would be in front of me and I couldn't reach out and drink it because I would think about like my own willpower and how the adversary wanted me to drink this. And then if I did drink it, I would become in a way, like a slave to Satan's power.

Elna Baker [00:18:54] And like, you know, by the time I was like, it's really not worth it, it's just. And so it took a lot of baby steps to begin to have fluid action. And so I think that was like the first stage was even getting the courage.

Elna Baker [00:19:12] Like you think every action means that the sky will fall. And learning that the sky wasn't going to fall. And then after that it was my family, you know, it was like, okay, this seems real. I really, I've been deluding myself. I've tried to create this safe space of questions and actions, but if I'm being honest, my worlds that I'm trying to straddle are getting further and further apart. I'm trying to have a foot in the Mormon world, a foot outside.

Elna Baker [00:19:44] It's getting too far apart. And when you actually make that decision, it isn't until you make the decision that you realize the full impact of that decision, which, you know, how many of you feel like your relationship with your family is difficult now.

Family Relationships After Leaving the Church

Elna Baker [00:20:03] And I feel like I love my family so much and that was why it was so hard for me to leave. And then once I did leave and my relationship with my family complicated, I feel like I just was like outline enough to go through in a way, like a bender of trying all the things I hadn't been allowed to try or do. And my friend Karen Duffin, who used to be Mormon as well, she explains it well, which is like as a Mormon, you think you have a sense of the world, right? Because you live. We're not like other like really orthodox religions where we're in these secluded communities.

Elna Baker [00:20:45] It's like we grow up on the same block as the world so we think we understand it, but really we have like a seventh grader's understanding and so going out and trying things. As a 28 year old woman, I was so clue. I mean, it often felt like I was an alien, like wearing a human body suit and that people would like, you know, I would try to order coffee and say like a mahatma.

Elna Baker [00:21:11] The words, the words are so complicated. They're not in English and like Every single thing you could possibly do wrong or embarrass yourself at. I feel like I did. I just didn't know how to do anything. Whether it be with guys, whether it be, you know, ordering a drink even. I still get made fun of my friends who were over and I was like, oh, we have alcohol in the fridge.

Elna Baker [00:21:41] We don't call it alcohol. That I don't know how to do. And then I feel like a lot of my behavior unfortunately was a little bit destructive. She proved to myself I didn't know it was the time, but to prove to myself that what I was taught was true was more important than protecting myself. So I went from, you know, I lost my virginity at 28. I slept with one person, I got in a relationship with another person. And then when I was out of that, I just was like, I slept with everyone I knew in like a two month period. And then I was like, this feels horrible because it would, it's just too many people.

Elna Baker [00:22:31] And I was sleep deprived and really like that was my main. And then I, you know, met my husband shortly after that. And I feel regret that my main sexual experience or exploration in the world was one of trying to hit rock bottom as opposed to joy and exploration.

Elna Baker [00:22:57] And then I also feel like I forgot my mission statement. I forgot my intention when I left the church. My intention was I want to figure out who I am and what I believe in and I want to be true to myself. And then I left and I went from defining myself as a Mormon to defining myself as not a Mormon. And I, I was just running, hiding, pushing it away. And for me, the biggest part of that was my relationship with God. I going back to that moment when I was 16, that presence of God that create and the love I felt from God created a best friend dynamic with God in my mind.

Elna Baker [00:23:42] And I would talk to God all the time, not just when I prayed. It was just like walking down the street, I'd be like, he saw that, right? Like, we just talked a lot. Which, you know, now could potentially be perceived as insanity. But I maintained a wonder with life because I was watching it and sharing it with God always.

Elna Baker [00:24:06] And so then when I decided I was going to leave the church and commit sin, I feel like the hardest part for me about that was that the notion that if you love me, you will keep my commandments and my love of God.

Elna Baker [00:24:21] It felt like a huge betrayal to do anything wrong when I knew without a shadow of a doubt what I was doing was wrong. And so in order to get Permission I had to bury God, pretend he was gone, erase him from my mind.

Elna Baker [00:24:38] And I was talking to Gina about this last night. But I feel like I can say I spent five years like Jonah and the whale, just buried in something without a pursuit of my own being or any sense of spirituality.

Elna Baker [00:24:58] And one night I was at the beach working on a work assignment, stressed out, and I decided I need to just take a walk. And when I was born, I used to always look up at the moon and say, hi, God. Like, I looked at the moon as if it were God in my mind. And I was walking on the beach and I looked up and accidentally said, hi, God. And then burst into tears and was like, I'm so sorry I'm such a bad friend. We have a doctor.

Elna Baker [00:25:27] Everything I want to say to you, I don't care. Realize how much I missed that relationship until it just started pouring out. And I was crying and walking on the beach. And I just talked at this thing for like an hour walking on the beach. And then I felt a sense of real peace come over me. And I walked back to back the hour I was walking. And when I went to turn back off the sand to go onto the street, I turned around and the moon, which to me, it felt like an hour further down the beach was where we had this conversation, the moon and I.

Elna Baker [00:26:03] The moon was exactly right next to me because that's how the moon works. And I looked up in glance and I have this thought which is, no matter if you're walking away from God or walking towards him, he's always in the same place.

Elna Baker [00:26:18] And that was truly profound for me because I felt like I was telling myself this story that I was running and that I was unwanted and that I was bad and that I deserved to suffer and that I was in the. I used to live in the light of God, and now I lived in the shadow. And actually we were always standing in the same place. Nothing moved. The way I saw it changed.

Elna Baker [00:26:47] And I think that to break bad is really difficult, especially when you have a very strict understanding of what good and bad is supposed to mean. And mean. In the last several months, actually, I've started to reopen my life to a sense of spirituality and spiritual meaning. And I haven't felt happier in years. And I don't have definitive answers, but I do know that that's a part of who I am. And so that's, I think, kind of the summary of that time period. Now, questions.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] Okay, so that. That was your proposal. That's sort of the Stuff that you prepared for. And now you want to go to

Elna Baker [00:27:49] the Q and A. I have a couple other thoughts to share, some stories here and there. Great, great.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] No, we've already got some good questions rolling in. Let's see. Let's begin with this one. What do you think? What do you think about the concept of writing as an approach to self therapy when navigating an identity tradition?

Elna Baker [00:28:19] Yeah, one thing that came up this weekend that I forgot who said it, but we were talking about journaling, right? And how you guys are talking about this. Right. But, like, how have you guys stopped journaling, too? Like, when you were Mormon, there was such a pressure to journal all the time, and I didn't even realize that was a Mormon thing. But I have, like, a tremendous amount of journals, and I no longer keep a journal.

Elna Baker [00:28:44] And yet I go back and I look at those journals, and they don't feel true to me. It feels like I'm writing a journal in case someone reads it, as if I'm tracking that I am good. They don't feel like I'm really telling the truth. And for me, a huge breakthrough in my own writing has happened because of this prompt that I will put at the top of a page, which is, if no one were to ever hear or read this, what would I really say?

Elna Baker [00:29:17] And I think that I've felt moments where I have saved myself and found a reason for some of the hardest things to have happened have come at the end of the journey when I written through it, processed it. And it's as if I can look at my younger self and say, thanks. Thanks for going through that, because it gave me something here now. And I highly encourage you to write and to write with that freedom of not looking at it, just not stopping.

Elna Baker [00:29:57] There's a concept of morning pages and anyone who's read the artist's way. I used to do this a lot, but you wake up in the morning, and the first thing you do is you write three to four pages without stopping free form. And it does have this power to release you from some of the demons in your head, and you can go out and live that day without such a strong voice narrating your life.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Nice. All right, next question. My boyfriend is religious, and I want to go to church with him. Not Mormon and not much more open, but it causes anxiety and fear. Any advice?

Exploring Spirituality and New Belief Systems

Elna Baker [00:30:46] And it's going to a different religion than Mormonism. You know, I feel like I really enjoyed Gina's session, which is this idea of the light and the shadow and being able to look at things full on. And one thing that I've discovered about my own relationship to Mormonism, which feels like a way that I told myself very similar concepts, is this idea of there's like two tracks of your life, like the good and the bad. And when you're believing in Mormonism, every time a prayer is answered, every time you have a spiritual experience, it goes on this track. And you have to push the times that didn't work down here and delete them from your memory.

Elna Baker [00:31:28] And I eventually just got sick of putting it in a cupboard and closing the cupboard. And I wanted to see both tracks at the same time, the good and the bad. And so going to another religion with that in mind, I think is a really beautiful way to approach meaning.

Elna Baker [00:31:51] I do find for me, nothing. I have been, you know, I've tried going to other churches, weirdly, nothing has been able to quite replace Mormonism for me. But going to other churches has had strength in me. It's never a bad thing.

Elna Baker [00:32:11] And just be aware of your own. It's easy, I think, as a woman especially, but also as a Mormon, to take on the agenda of others and so be aware of your own sense of truth. And not taking on his agenda.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Nice. Okay, how did you eventually come across the historical and doctrinal inconsistencies within Mormonism? And then how long afterwards did it take for you to come to the conclusion, assuming this is the conclusion you've arrived at, that the truth claims aren't true?

Stories About Mormonism and Early Doubts

Elna Baker [00:32:53] Great. Actually, this is one thing. The first big story I told of the moth that was on the moth radio was about being Mormon and falling in love with this guy who was atheist. And George Green, who runs the Mock, came up to me afterwards, invited me out to dinner, and then when we were at dinner, he gave me Fawn Brody's book, no Man Knows My History.

Elna Baker [00:33:17] And that was when I was 24. And that book sat on my shelf for 10 years. I would not read it. And I just finished it two weeks ago. And I think I had an idea of what that book was going to be. It felt to me a little bit more like the boogeyman. Like I thought it was going to be really negative, anti Mormon. And so when I was Mormon, I wouldn't read it. And I look at these memories because I live in a tiny apartment of like, kneeling on the ground, praying earnestly, grappling with my faithful, crying, begging for answers. And now I can look back and say, oh, that book was 10ft away.

Elna Baker [00:34:00] Like, I was always 10ft away. From answers I just wouldn't open. I had such a fear of knowledge and looking into it. And then when I stopped being an active member, my brother stopped shortly after I did. And he stopped because of, you know, CES letter. And he did all the research, and he was like, on ex Mormon Reddit every day, still is. And he got really angry and he created a rift with my parents, and I saw their relationship weaken. And so I decided I wasn't going to be one of those Mormons. I was going to be one of the people who was, like, more peaceful and not angry, and I wasn't going to let it overtake my life.

Elna Baker [00:34:45] And I saw his anger as if he'd been overtaken by it. Right. And then it was only recently that I realized that there's something healthy about what he did that I didn't do, which is he kind of killed Santa Claus, right? He did the research, he looked into it. And I have spent seven years feeling, and I talked about this on the first night, but that feeling of I wasn't good enough to cut it. I wouldn't look at the full story. I wouldn't tell myself everything about the church. I wouldn't do the research to be able to make a conscious choice. I just wanted to blame myself.

Elna Baker [00:35:27] I used it to blame myself. And so in reading no Man Knows My History, it was a real relief for me. And actually I feel like it gave me a testimony of Joseph Smith, the man I always grappled with, understanding Joseph Smith and feeling like he was on par with God and Jesus in terms of my testimony I gave in church. And I feel like you're kind of in awe of him when you read the book. You're in awe of what he did and his audacity.

Elna Baker [00:36:01] But I had a really powerful moment towards the end of the book. Joseph Smith is basically about to go to jail and he's about to be assassinated, and he knows this. And Vaughn Brody writes these accounts as he came back up the river, basically walking towards his death. He was very uncharacteristically solemn and observant, and he kept looking at trees or different things and saying how beautiful they were. And it made me profoundly sad and empathetic towards him in this moment that thought of, I wonder if he was thinking like, what did I do?

Elna Baker [00:36:43] I spent all of this time making this thing, and now I'm not going to be alive anymore. And he did make the ultimate sacrifice. He gained his life, and yet I am still giving a portion of my life every day to this story that he told us, and my energy is sucked up by it, and I'm using it to feel unhappy often.

Elna Baker [00:37:10] And when I shut the book, I made a decision that I was going to shut the book on that part of what I was doing in my own life and to just appreciate the living and the chance to be alive.

Guest [00:37:30] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] All right, so this question was, did you find any problem with the church doctrinally, or was it just not for you in general? It sounds like you've. It started out not being for you, or you notice finding your fit, and then eventually it moved to doctoral problems.

Elna Baker [00:37:53] Is that right? Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Okay. Tell us a bit about your family relationships when you chose to take a year off.

Elna Baker [00:38:06] I feel like. I feel like a lot of you I've talked to are kind of in a similar position right now, where you are taking. Living your secret life, and you feel this burden of that. And I definitely felt a tremendous burden. And I actually feel like that distanced me from my parents in general because I was treating every call with suspicion.

Elna Baker [00:38:32] And also, I mean, this went on beyond the first year. Like, my brother and I joke because when we go visit my parents, they live, like, 45 minutes from any place you could shop. And so once I started drinking coffee, like, I love coffee now I definitely need coffee when I wake up in the morning. And so every time we would visit in the morning, my brother and I would be like, oh, no, I have to go buy tampons. My brother would get, like, really excited. Yeah, I'm gonna go with Eleanor to buy tampons for 45 minutes, get coffee, and come back.

Elna Baker [00:39:09] But, like, every single day, I needed tampons. That was the best route. But this last year, my father was like, hey, look, I know you're not buying kids tampons. I'm not an idiot. And so we just want to spend time with you kids. So why don't you.

Elna Baker [00:39:29] I'm going to buy a kerag machine, and you can have coffee while you're here. And I was like, oh, so surprised by that. That's like, a huge step for my parents. And then I was like, no, no, no. I just also imagine, because we don't come that often, like, the whole year, it'd be like Satan sitting at the corner.

Elna Baker [00:39:47] But I was like, how about I just. I have a little homemade little machine thing. I'll just bring that. And so we brought it. And that first morning of my brother and I having coffee in the kitchen, the whole family's, like, hanging around the kitchen island. We're drinking our coffee. It was, like, scenic, like a happy family commercial. It is possible to bridge these two worlds.

Elna Baker [00:40:09] And then I just noticed my mother walks in, and she went and just walked straight to the kitchen window and, like, stoically looked out the window for, like, five minutes. Mom, are you okay? Is this okay? And she turned around and was like, honestly, your father didn't consult me about it.

Elna Baker [00:40:31] And I'm not taking this away, but I just. It's just going to be really hard for me to have this in my home. And then my dad pulled us aside. He's like, look, I really blew it with your mother.

Elna Baker [00:40:49] I was really screwed up. You can have coffee still, but don't make such a huge production. I was like, what are you talking about? You just had coffee. And so then the next day, we get woken up with a pounding. I get woken up, pounding on the door. My dad's like, your mom's walking the dog. Holy. Forget my mom. And I made coffee. My dad pours apple juice into a stove pan and starts boiling apple juice, and it opens every window, and he, like, walking.

Elna Baker [00:41:20] And then the apple just boiled over. My mom comes back, and we're still obviously drinking coffee. And my father's just like, this just makes such a huge production. And then Thursday, my mother. My mother, we came downstairs and we couldn't find my coffee maker anywhere. So we looked in every cupboard, and I finally was like, to my brothers, you know, she hid it. Like, there's no gonna find it unless we ask her. And so we went. Finally, we asked my dad. He's like, don't ask your mother.

Elna Baker [00:42:02] We asked my mother. And my mother was like, oh, I did see that. So where did I see that? As if it was a bit On Saturday Night Live. She walked through the kitchen down the hall. She's like, I saw that somewhere. Opened the first garage, walked into the second. Where was that? The furthest shelf was his little coffee maker. She's like, oh, here it was.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] How did we get there?

Elna Baker [00:42:30] But I feel like it's never ending. And, like, we're. I'm not at. I think one of my goals at this conference is that I'm at, like, in terms of honesty for 1 to 5. I'm at, like, a level 2 to 3 with my family right now. And I am trying to work up the courage to be honest with them. And I do feel like even the notion of not writing some of the things and now writing it and wanting to put it out in the world, the biggest fear of speaking my truth is that I will once again put my relationship with my family at jeopardy. And to me that's one of the most tragic things about the situation of leaving the church is we lose. We feel like we're going to lose our families.

Honesty With Family About the Transition

John Dehlin [00:43:22] So I have a couple follow up questions. It's a bit bizarre for me to hear hear you say you're a two on the openness and honesty scale with your family since you've written a memoir about yourself that was published by a major publisher. But I was published articles. Okay.

Guest [00:43:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] And you've been on the moth and you've talked about your faith journey. So to us it might seem like you're like super transparent.

Elna Baker [00:43:53] No, I mean my husband and I, my parents, when they come to visit, we have a contrabad is what we call it. It's like a backpack that we just put anything like condoms or we're married too. I don't know why I still do this. Like condoms, a vibrator, alcohol and what else? Everything goes in the contour bag and we hide it in the basement.

Elna Baker [00:44:17] And I mean honestly, it's more out of. I see how my parents respond to seeing things like that and so I just want to like protect them from feeling uncomfortable or feeling worried. It's not out of shame or that I think these things are so wrong like I once thought. But I mean I actually totally admire people who are like at my wedding, couldn't have, couldn't have. I wanted to have wine with my friends and I didn't out of respect for my family and the Mormons who would be there.

Elna Baker [00:44:53] But most of the people at my wedding weren't Mormon, you know. And I feel like I'm constantly trying to be so conscious of my parents feelings. But I want to honor who I am and I'm not quite there yet.

John Dehlin [00:45:12] The budding comedian in me wants to ask, were you where you store your vibrator so that you have to put it away when your mom cuts. Like the kitchen table?

Elna Baker [00:45:25] Of course I have a shelf of vibrators on display. It's cute when you say vibrator, John.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] So even though maybe they don't know fully where you've been with the church, they've been a part of your act or your writings or your routine. Do they follow your work? And has that ever been an issue of them? Number one, when you're with them, clearly you're paying attention to what's going on because it's material. Do they like, has there ever been that meta realization between you guys that you're probably taking notes as the apple. As the apple juice is boiling over, because you're going to use that in a bit. But also, do they follow what you're doing? And is there ever that conversation about the fact that they're a part of your material?

Elna Baker [00:46:28] So with some of my new writing that I'm doing, I feel, because I'm trying to be more honest about where I stand with my feelings on the church. And it's also, you know, just about what it's like to try all these things for the first time. I feel like, in a way, I had felt a level of being told what to do by the Mormon Church, and now I'm being told what to do by the world. And, you know, you're supposed to enjoy these things and do I know.

Elna Baker [00:46:57] And so I, in writing truthfully about what my life is actually like and who I really am, I think that there are going to be things that are very difficult for my family. Like, any parent doesn't want to read some of the things that need to be writing or saying. And so I grappled with a tremendous amount of anxiety and fear and like, I couldn't sleep at night. I was so stressed out about this. And I woke up and in the morning, one morning while we're working on this stuff, and I had a. The first email in my inbox was from Con Edison, which is the electrical power here.

Elna Baker [00:47:31] And the subject line was protect your family. And I was like, con Edison knows I should protect my family. What am I doing? Your family is the most important thing. Like you're expressing yourself or like you're. But it's not as important as stop doing everything you're doing. Protect your family. And I told this to one of my co workers at this American Life, Nancy, who's just such a smart woman. And she said to me, she was like, you know, I think. What does it even mean, protect your family? Like, I think that we are trying constantly to protect people of things that they don't need to be protected of.

Elna Baker [00:48:11] You never know. You actually don't know. And there was a story I had to come off about. My parents used to live in Russia, and Odomov is like a storytelling show. And I flew to Russia to tell my parents that I'd lost my virginity because I wrote an article for Glamour magazine about losing my virginity and I didn't want them to find out.

Elna Baker [00:48:38] So I flew there to tell them in person and hope. I super kept chickening out. In the story, there's this line. So I had Been on the break from being Mormon for about a year. And I had told my parents this. And so we were in the car and the driver was this Russian man. And he said, he asked my parents if there was anything about Russia they would change. And they instantly said, well, the alcoholism, it's ruining this country.

Elna Baker [00:49:09] And the driver said, but how do you change that? And my father was like, well, you never take the first sip, because once you take the first sip, you're hooked. And he's like, I know me, I can't just have one brownie. And then I'm sitting in the front and I sort of pipe up.

Elna Baker [00:49:24] Well, you know, like, I drink. And I feel like you told me this all growing up, but it's possible to drink in moderation. And I turn around, my parents faces were white and they were like, what you drink?

Elna Baker [00:49:40] I love you. I'm on a. Remember I said I was on a break for more. Like, what did you think that meant? We thought it meant you just weren't going to church on Sunday. And I was like, oh, we are not on st Page.

Elna Baker [00:49:55] So anyway, when that story came out, and there's more to the story, but when that story came out, I was very nervous about my parents hearing it for totally other reasons. And I told him not to listen to it. And my dad listened to it and he called me and he was really upset. But he was upset not because in the story I also talk about my sexuality and sexual inspiration. He was upset because of the line about him only having, like, him eating brownies. He was like, I can have control when I cry.

Guest [00:50:29] What?

Elna Baker [00:50:31] That is not on my radar, I don't think. We know it's never possible to know the mind of another human being. And a lot of our fear is generated from an individual place, a belief that you're not worthy of being accepted and that your parents won't accept you. And I think that I. I say this as someone who's at a level two of honesty with my parents, but I think to get to a five, I have to believe that I'm worthy of being accepted.

John Dehlin [00:51:07] This is a semi appropriate question, and I won't. I won't reveal who it is that sent it, but feel free not to answer. Did you get any tattoos since becoming. Since your transition? And if so, what and where?

Elna Baker [00:51:23] I wish I had. I have to go live right now. I have one on my butt.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] No.

Guest [00:51:43] Give me credit. Next.

Elna Baker [00:51:48] Next question.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] How do you put a tattoo on a hole?

Elna Baker [00:52:04] That is the deepest question.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] Let's just take a A moment. Thank you for that question. How do you make. How do you make. How do you make moral decisions? Are there tools, patterns, feelings, and all that frameworks that you have established to decide what you will and won't do in life?

Rebuilding a Personal Moral Framework

Elna Baker [00:52:39] That's a really good question. I think that a lot of the framework of Mormonism is still. It's just, you know, being good to other people, being kind. And I feel like there's a level of honesty and hard work that we all got from our church. And so I feel like in terms of making moral decisions on a daily basis, for the most part, I'm still kind of on autopilot of being a kind person and the golden rule or whatnot. I think that the challenging part is defining your morality with things. Like, I feel like drinking, for example.

Elna Baker [00:53:25] It has been a very challenging thing. It's a mind for me where it's like, okay, I drink. This is supposed to be cool and fun. And then I remember when I first really, like, got drunk and had a hangover. I was like, what? I just did not meant to do this. How do people do this? And then asking friends, they were like, yeah, we feel the same way. And I was like, so why do you do this?

Elna Baker [00:53:53] And. And, yeah, just figuring out why you're doing things is important to me. Like, am I doing this to numb out my pain, my emotions? And I would say across the board, for all the times that I've gone out and gotten drunk or had a drink, I could pick out some real moments of joy there. But I also sit think the baseline was about numbing myself out and not. And escaping my brain.

Elna Baker [00:54:27] And so as I approach that, it's challenging because I'm allowed to do this now. And when it was an instant, no, I didn't have to work through that. And so I might set the intention. I'm like, well, I don't think I want to go have a drink, but then I will drink. And so it is.

Elna Baker [00:54:50] There are a lot more opportunities to feel that remorse the next day. Like, I didn't make the choice I set out to make. And I think just being honest with yourself and noticing the patterns and not. I think initially I was living my life, you know, reactionary sense, and I wasn't being thoughtful or compassionate to, like. Like, I remember I started smoking, which is so stupid. Like, you know, I feel like the research is really solid on that.

Elna Baker [00:55:30] But, yeah, I started smoking because the first time I had a cigarette I had. This was about a year and a half into this break. I Had missed. So I used to always pray for every decision that was a big decision, like, should I move here? Should I do this? I would want the feeling of the Holy Ghost. And I had trained myself to really be able to recognize it. And for me, the way it manifests was I would close my eyes and I would feel like a.

Elna Baker [00:55:59] Like an elation, as if like a cloud was bursting in my brain and a feeling of calm. Right? And the first time I appropriately actually did it right. I turned this boat before, and I did not do it right. But when I first smoked cigarette correctly, I felt the same exact feeling I felt when I felt the Holy Ghost. I felt like a. And then like a calm wash over me. And then I missed the Holy Ghost. And so I would sneak and have cigarettes to feel the feeling of the Holy Ghost, which is so illogical that I began the habit with the desire for that mental release from thoughts, whatever it is, But I didn't look at what I like.

Elna Baker [00:56:44] I could have potentially. Now, one of my regrets is that, you know, smoking for a year could have potentially affected my health, that I won't live as long on this earth. Right. But I was seeing that at that time intentionally. And so I think when we talk about the notion of morality, it's, for me, a lot about seeing both of those tracks. Not deleting things to achieve an end, but looking at things straight on.

Breaking Free From Religious Constraints on Sexuality

John Dehlin [00:57:22] Can you talk more about the. The months you were paralyzed after you gave yourself freedom to act outside the church constraints? What was the first thing you did to break your paralysis?

Elna Baker [00:57:34] I actually have a really funny story, but it's so inappropriate.

Guest [00:57:36] Do it.

John Dehlin [00:57:40] Apparently we like inappropriate things.

Elna Baker [00:57:43] I'll try to do it a little. I'll be. I'll allude to something. But in the midst of that, I got my friend set me up on. So I was totally paralyzed with this. And my friend was this guy who was a writer who had been orthodox Jewish, been raised in a really strict community, and had also kind of entered the world at 28. And he was 10 years older than me, and he had made it through and really adjusted. So they're like, you should go out with her, Ethan. And he can just walk you through what it's like to, you know, break away. So we're on this date, and he is talking to me about.

Elna Baker [00:58:27] Both of us initially were like, talking about why we love dark respective face. And then he asked me, like, how the break was going, and I was like. I told him how paralyzed I was, and he was like, don't Worry. That's totally normal. That's, like, one of the early stages of it. What have you done? You know, have you tried drinking? And I said, no. He said, well, what about drugs? And I was like, no. He said, well, what about sex? Like, have you had sex? And I said, honestly, I have no idea what to do with a penis. Like, literally no idea. And so he looked at me and was like, well, do you want me to show you?

Elna Baker [00:59:03] And I was like, yes. This is like a community service kiss. So we get in a cab and we get back to my apartment, and I. And it was like, super, honestly, almost like a kind gesture. You know, the lights were on. It was very like, we're sitting on my couch. Takes his penis out. He's like, this is a penis. Like,

John Dehlin [00:59:33] I.

Elna Baker [00:59:33] The first thing I said, like, blurted out without thinking, was I said, it's so big. He's like, wow, you're already good at this. Natural. Because you're natural. And then, you know, as he showing me what to do, how to touch it, like, not so soft or hard, you know, figuring out logistics of this thing.

Elna Baker [00:59:58] I leaned in and kissed him for the first time. And as I pulled back, I was. I looked in his eyes and I said, do you ever get over the guilt? And the penis was like, I didn't understand them. So I was like, what's happening?

Elna Baker [01:00:30] So he was like, I think I should go. I'm sorry. And, like, you know, zipped up and left. I was like, I mean, it was, like, the shame. First of all, that's embarrassing. But also just the shame of we all know, like, all things that were built into, like, how wrong this was. And, like, to me, the direct action of, like.

Elna Baker [01:00:55] And weirdly, I was talking to someone who's a writer, who had dated a lot of Mormons, and he said, mormons? And I was like, oh, this is so true for me. When we explore our sexuality, we will let people touch us or make advances, but we won't make advances ourselves. Like, it's like, there's some. You delude yourself into thinking, I didn't do it wrong. I didn't do anything wrong because I did. So you're just constantly, like, tripping and falling on things.

Elna Baker [01:01:23] Gee, how did your head get on my boob? There's, like, a level of a sin of, like, contrition versus omission. Yeah, it's the same kind of idea. But, yeah. So then I. The next morning, I woke up with that, like, tremendous Mormon guilt of what did I do last night? And I literally had to pep talk myself. Like, you're still alive. It's okay. You're alive. You didn't die. Like, it's not the end of the world. And then I climbed down the ladder of my loft bed, and by the time my feet touched the ground, I remember I fell to the ground crying because of this sin I committed.

Elna Baker [01:02:07] And in that moment, I made up this, like, I invented a ritual, essentially. But I. We had gone to the Jerusalem center with my sister when I was 18, and we'd gone to the Garden of Gethsemane. And in the Garden of Gethsemane, in the tour they gave us, they were like, this dirt is the dirt that Jesus bled and died in. And for whatever reason, at 18, I was like, this dirt saved some of that for later. So I took from the Garden of Gethsemane, and I had saved it for 210 years in this vase in my. On my dresser. And in this moment of, like, such grief, I had a thought, and I went over to the vase, and I, like, prayed for forgiveness and said that through the blood of Jesus that is in this dirt, and through the atonement, like, forgive me for what I've done.

Elna Baker [01:03:05] And then I poured, like, the Jesus blood dirt into my hands, and I rub them together, like, into my penis. Touching hands, rub them together over the trash can. And then threw the dirt away. Like, it was this. I sacrificed some of my special dirt for this forgiveness. But then.

Elna Baker [01:03:25] And weirdly, I invented a thing that worked a little bit. Like, I didn't feel the weight of all that guilt. But then I also was on this road of sexual curiosity. So, like, not three weeks later, where once there was Jesus dirt, I was like, yet another penis in my head.

Elna Baker [01:03:46] I, like, went home and I did the same thing again. I poured more dirt and, like, over the course of a year, basically just been tiptoeing. I eventually started running out of dirt, and then I was, like, rationing the dirt. I would just, like, pour a couple. Like, just tiny, tiny bits. Because I was like, I'm running out of dirt.

Grief, Growth, and Looking Back With Compassion

Elna Baker [01:04:06] And I look back at that girl now with compassion. Like, it all seems. It's silly. Like, we're laughing at it. But it wasn't silly. It was hard. And if anything, don't be so hard on yourselves if you're there right now.

Guest [01:04:26] Mm.

Elna Baker [01:04:27] It's. It's hard to be reborn at 28. Yeah.

Faith Transition and Shifting Views on Gender

John Dehlin [01:04:35] There's a series of questions about gender. Sort of how your faith transition, you know, impacted your perceptions around gender and your role in your own Life in your relationships, your marriage with career. So talk about any insights or thoughts you have or perspectives on gender.

Elna Baker [01:05:03] I think that, in a way, one of the hardest things that happened to me as a child is also one of the luckiest things, which is because I was a fat kid and bullies or boys didn't like me, it instantly shifted me into this thought of. I saw at church that my function was to get married and have a family. And I was also being told by the world that no one wanted to marry a fat girl.

Elna Baker [01:05:35] And my worth was supposed to be that I was going to marry and have a family at the same time. I was also being told, that's never going to happen for you. And so I had to, in between these two ideas, carve out a place where I was figuring out that I had worth aside from being a mother and a wife being chosen. And I feel like it pulled me away. I honestly feel like if I. Because I was so boy crazy that at that time, like, if I had had guys interested in me, I might have bought into it a little bit more.

Elna Baker [01:06:17] But then I feel like once I lost weight and once I did start having more relationship opportunities, I became really obsessed with getting married to someone with a single board, which is so difficult. There are, like, five people to choose from. And, like, what are the odds that you're going to have things in common with them and that they're going to have things in common with you? And I look back at my journals, and so much of it was like, bless me with a husband. And I think my patriarchal blessing played a big part. I find patriarchal blessings so fascinating that each of us has this document that is as if it is our destiny.

Elna Baker [01:06:59] And in fact, my principal blessing says, many will sit at your feet as you speak truths to them. Right. When I wanted to get involved in comedy, or when I was trying to figure out what I was meant to do, I did that because my. So a lot of my courage to do what I do for a career came from a blessing someone gave me. Someone else gave me that idea, in a sense.

Elna Baker [01:07:29] And my Pedro was talked about getting married to a young man who would love me dearly. And so I felt like I was constantly searching for that. And then when I had to break, I realized it was playing so much a part of my constant framework. Thinking about it, thinking about it, thinking about it, that I eventually said, I'm done. I'm done obsessing with this. And I want to stop feeling bad about myself, because I can't get someone to love me or, you know, get married in the temple. And my.

Elna Baker [01:08:06] I feel like my life opened up because of that. But then the flip side was that when I did meet my husband, I really like. It was really hard to get married. I resisted it so much because I talked myself out of it. I was like, I do not need this.

Elna Baker [01:08:22] And so, like, I mean, I certainly went to the wedding, like, kicking and screaming. I was really resistant. I think I also feel a resistance to the idea of men controlling me because I was so, so raised, as everyone here can attest to, with this. Everything that I was able to do had to go through a man. And I just don't believe that. Does that answer my question?

Guest [01:08:51] Sure.

Elna Baker [01:08:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:55] What did your boyfriends think about dating a Mormon? Did it bother him? You were a rookie with drinking, sex, etc,

Elna Baker [01:09:06] Nothing. It bothers men if you're a rookie with sex. I mean, I think I built up a lot of anxiety around that. Like that sort of middle school sense of I can't do anything or know anything. My husband is like, he's pretty game. Like, he really enjoys, like, going to see my family. He goes to church with them more often than I do.

Elna Baker [01:09:33] He likes to do this. He likes to veritie. Does his fake. I'm gonna do my Mormon testimony, bearer's testimony. And he certainly will sit through things like, my mother will pray for. Honestly, she can pray for like eight minutes, but her prayers are very.

Elna Baker [01:09:50] It's like her prayers show a level of, like, guilt to them where she'll be like, oh, bless the Syrian refugees. And then she's like, oh, where else are the refugees? Bless the refugees. Like, she just has every country in the world about, like, who has refugees. And then she'll bust one of her kids, for one thing. And then she's like, oh, gosh, I have all these other kids. And then she'll accidentally mention aunt. And then she has to get through all the ants.

Elna Baker [01:10:15] It's as if she's starting to invite people to a party and then the party just explodes. I have to invite them and I have to invite them. And so we'll like, you know, it's fun to have somebody who opens their eyes during the prayer and smiles at you. And I think that sometimes when I'm mad at him or like, frustrated, I will say this thing to him, which is, you don't understand me. You'll never really be able to understand me because you're not Mormon is the implication.

Elna Baker [01:10:50] And I think that we built up this idea of, like, I Think women do this in general. Everyone does this. But the idea of the love of your life is supposed to be this match and this complete thing for you. And actually, part of what helped me realize I wanted to get married was that I have the love of my life. But it's not just him. It's all the people in my life. And that there are people in my life who understand. Understand what it's like to be Mormon. And they're who I should talk to about, and I should hold my husband accountable for not knowing any of this stuff.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] Okay, we'll get you out of here on this question.

Final Reflections and Audience Questions

Elna Baker [01:11:34] Okay, cool.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] What beliefs have you either held onto and or acquired? So have words. Give a. Give us a 2000. Bear us a 2016 Elna Baker testimony of what your truths are now. And you can borrow from what you used to believe that you still believe along with things you value.

Elna Baker [01:12:06] I recently had this experience where I were at this beach and I got buried. And the sand, like, deep, deep buried. Have you done this as an adult? It's incredible. But I got. So I got buried in the sand. And because there was so much sand on me, I could feel, like, a pulsing in, like, my feet, my knees, my hands, my hips, and, like, I could feel my heart beating. I just felt like a.

Elna Baker [01:12:32] And then I realized what I was feeling. This. So I said to my husband, I was like, oh, come bury my head. Mostly I want to feel, like, at the top of my head, too, if I could feel this, like, moving inside of me. So he buried my head, except for, like, right here on my face. And I could feel this energy, feeding, pulsing inside of me. And it made me super emotional, but also connected to an awareness that I am alive.

Elna Baker [01:12:58] And I got really connected to that feeling and realized that I think that I don't appreciate living and I don't appreciate the living. Like, that all of you are alive and that we only have, like, this little window here.

Elna Baker [01:13:20] And I think as a kid, I entered the world with a sheer love of life. And then I found out about debt. And I was like, I knew this was a trick, and it pushed me into this place of.

Elna Baker [01:13:36] I was so in love with the chance to be alive or whatever that I. The knowledge that someday I wouldn't made me try to say, like, I'm not going to get too attached to this. And I feel like I approached life. Have been approaching life, especially since I left Mormonism, with more fear and dis.

Elna Baker [01:13:59] And in this moment, I realized that I want to approach life with wonder and Curiosity. And when I say appreciate the living, I mean like, appreciate the moments I have with my parents and not like constantly pick at what's different between us. And so I have a testimony in the. The miraculous opportunity to be alive. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:14:44] Beautiful. How do those of us who want to follow your writings, your creation, creative works, how do they stay in touch?

Elna Baker [01:14:52] I'm actually kind of bad at self promotion, but you friend me on Facebook. I don't tweet much. I feel like that stuff distracts me too much. But yeah, check me out on Facebook. Elna Vapor.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Okay, so you don't have like a website or any blog or.

Elna Baker [01:15:12] Not really. I think I used to have a website. I might still be aldabaker.com we'll see if that's.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] And if. And if we're, you know, we're all cheering that this, that this TV show makes it to production. How tell us what we can expect if it all progresses as you're hope.

Elna Baker [01:15:34] Basically, I've gotten the opportunity, like the contract to write the pilot. And if they like the pilot, then I write the first 10 episodes and then if they like that, they shoot it and then if they like that, it goes on tv. So I am at the beginning stages of a lot of moments to, you know, prove myself. But I think if all that were to happen, it would probably be in about a year, it would be on tv. So yeah. And I honestly, I really feel like part of what's brought me back to caring about my beliefs, looking into spirituality. It came when I stopped running and looked at everything I'd been through and wrote about it, started processing it, and that there truly is a way to heal that is available to you through you.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Elder Baker, everybody.

Elna Baker [01:16:44] Thank you, Elma.

John Dehlin [01:16:45] Sometimes I feel like the role. You can't be there.

Elna Baker [01:16:50] What are you doing?

John Dehlin [01:16:52] I'm just gonna praise you for a second. Sometimes I feel like I'm so busy in my world and I'll put a big comma there. A lot of the people that I talk to are so busy in theirs that they really don't have time for self reflection. Like there's a lot of people where they'll say, I really need help. And I'll say, well, this is what you do to need help, to get help. And they're like, no, I'm too busy. And they just kind of go on with their life. I think the role of a writer, it seems like one of the roles of a writer is to kind of do the introspection for us that we don't take the time to do for ourselves.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] And I think you provide a lot of wisdom and insight that I wish that I wish I had more. I wish I made the priority to spend more time doing so. On behalf of sort of your people, our people, thank you for being willing to do that work so that we can not only enjoy understanding your life, but maybe understand our own lives a little bit better.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Thank you. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Closing Hymn

Guest [01:18:16] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Joel, your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well. Hell, Why should we mourn? I think our all is hard T not so all is right. Why should we think too great we lo if we now

Elna Baker [01:19:38] shoot.

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