Welcome and Introducing the Panel

Dana [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am not your host, John Dehlin. It is November 11, 2024.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Thanks, Dana. Hey, everyone. I'm John. I am John Dehlin. I'm here with Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:16] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] And we are doing another one of our awesome panels for those of you who have been following us this year. We did a Mormon bishops panel and a Relief Society panel, Relief Society president panel. And today we are doing Mormon young single adults, specifically young women. And we have an amazing panel of four Mormon women who participated in the Young Single Adults program. And the participants are. Julie. Hey, Julie.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:48] Hi.

Julie [00:00:50] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Hi, Julie. We have Dana. Hey, Dana.

Jess [00:00:54] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] You already met Dana. We have Meg.

Meg [00:00:56] Hello.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:57] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] Hey, Meg. And we have Jess.

Jess [00:01:00] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Hey, Jess.

Jess [00:01:01] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Yeah. And we're gonna be talking about all sorts of things. What it's like to date as a Mormon young woman, and woman, what it's like to be in these young single adults wards where, you know, some say they're kind of meat factories or what do they call them?

Julie [00:01:21] Meat market.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Meat market. Yeah. Yeah. Where the goal is to get married and get married quick and get on the Mormon train. We're gonna be talking about beauty standards and gender norms and gender expectations. We're gonna be talking about sexuality. And it may get a little raw, it may get a little bumpy, but it may be a little bit bloated. But that's an inside. But we're gonna have a lot of fun today, and. Yeah. So where should we begin? I think it would make sense to begin by having each of our panelists just kind of do a brief introduction. Let us know just a little bit about their Mormon story so we can level set. And, Meg, actually, Julie, should we start with you?

Julie [00:02:14] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] All right. Hi, Julie.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:15] Hi.

Julie [00:02:16] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] All right, tell us a bit about you.

Julie's Background and Conversion Story

Julie [00:02:18] All right, well, my name is Julie. I'm 33, and I was a convert, and I left the church about three years ago.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Where did you convert?

Julie [00:02:26] In Sacramento, California, which is one of the armpits of California. I would say that, like, you know, Fresno and Bakersfield are top contenders, but, you know, Sacramento's up there. And, Yeah, I was 13. My dad was raised Jewish, actually, and he was kind of forced into it, and. And he really didn't like that. And so even though my mom was Catholic to raise me and my brothers, my dad was very, like, anti religion because he didn't want us to be forced into anything we didn't want to do. But my parents divorced when I was 12, and my mom remarried a Mormon guy and she kind of used that as an opportunity to re embrace religion.

Julie [00:03:12] And she really liked the church. And I went to her baptism and it was kind of awesome. Like it was so cozy and warm and I love the hymns. And so I voluntarily, like, chose to meet with the sisters at 13 and it was pretty great. I really enjoyed chatting with them. To be fair, I didn't gain really a big testimony, but when they asked me to be baptized, I kind of felt bad to say no.

Julie [00:03:43] A lot of pressure there. But I had a really great time. And so I joined the church and preteen years were pretty good. I was in California during the Prop 8 stuff and I was a big theater kid and a lot of my friends were like, gay. And I was part of GSA Gay Straight alliance in high school.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] Wait, so you're a Mormon convert kid in theater and drama while the Mormon church is trying to take same sex marriage away from Californians? How was that for you?

Julie [00:04:11] Really awkward because in the temple interview they were like, do you believe in, you know, do you support any things that are not, you know, in accordance to the church? And at that time the whole gay thing was like, really big. And so I said, I do. And so I chose not to go on temple trips in high school. And that was like, kind of messy with my leaders because they felt so sad for me and they were like, really trying to, you know, convince me to still go to the temple. Like, well, I don't believe this. So, you know, I'm not going to go.

Julie [00:04:43] And I don't know exactly what happened. I kind of probably just got brainwashed over the years because when gay marriage got legalized, I was like, yeah. Or, you know, I was like, that's not right. And so that was Anyway. But yeah, I got my patriarchal blessing in high school as well. And that was really big on my relationship with the church because in my patriarchal blessing it was, if you pay your tithing and you attend all your church meetings and you obey the law of health, you will be blessed and have all these good things. And so I like never missed a Sunday. I actually really love church.

Julie [00:05:18] I would go, I went every Sunday and really loved it. And I wanted to take my endowments out like really young, like at 20. And I asked, I like prayed about it. And I asked my bishop if I could and he told me no.

Julie [00:05:33] And I was really upset by that because all my friends were going on missions and they'd gone through the temple and said how amazing it was.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] Did you consider a mission?

Julie [00:05:41] No, I mean, more of like a backup plan because I didn't have anything else to do. But thankfully, a good mentor in my life. One of my good guy friends, his dad was a stake president, and we were really close, and he was also a mission president. And when I chatted with him about potentially going on mission, he gave me some very good advice, and he said, a mission should interrupt plans. They shouldn't be your backup plan.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] That's interesting because they don't tell young men that.

Julie [00:06:08] Yeah, yeah, but.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] And they don't tell young women that anymore. So.

Julie [00:06:12] Yeah, I don't know. But it was really good coming from him because he had been a mission president in Slovenia, and he. I don't know. That really just kind of opened my eyes to, oh, I don't want to actually serve mission. I just don't have anything else going on. So, thankfully, I didn't serve a mission, but, yeah, I see.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Did you, when you started dating after high school, was it in Sacramento?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] So you were in a young, single adult ward in Sacramento. Okay.

Julie [00:06:42] Yeah. That same bishop also told me I was not allowed to go to the YSA ward until I was over 21, despite all of my.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] Whoa. I've never heard that.

Julie [00:06:49] I know. I don't know why.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] Okay.

Julie [00:06:51] But all of my friends were already going, and so it was just like a me thing. I don't know why. But, yeah, same bishop who wouldn't let me go get my endowments out wouldn't let me go to Ysa Ward. Okay. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] So at 21, did you take out your endowments?

Julie [00:07:04] Oh, no, no. I was.

Jess [00:07:05] Sorry.

Julie [00:07:05] Going to ISA word at 21.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Okay.

Jess [00:07:07] Okay.

Julie [00:07:07] And.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] But you wanted to get your endowments out. But it.

Julie [00:07:11] And he said no.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Okay. No. Said no even at 21?

Julie [00:07:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] Okay.

Julie [00:07:14] Yeah, he said no.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Okay.

Julie [00:07:15] And he's like, you're not.

John Dehlin [00:07:16] He was trying to protect your. Your status in the church, kind of, and your. Your eternal fate. Because if you had sex after your endowments, you could get excommunicated, I think.

Julie [00:07:28] You think?

John Dehlin [00:07:28] I think Possible.

Julie [00:07:30] I was a very late bloomer, though, so I don't know if that would have even been on my mind. But, yeah. So I went to YSA ward at 21. Ish. And it was fantastic. Like, I had a huge group of friends, and we all did game nights and movie nights, and some, you know, guy in elders quorum would always have the codes to the church. And so we'd, like, sneak in at, like, 11pm and play sardines and murder in the dark and stuff. It was so much fun and. But they all got married, like, really quickly. Like a huge group of 15 people all got married except me.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] And I must have felt lonely.

Julie [00:08:06] It was awful. And it was, like, really depressing. And also, you know, feeling like the leftovers and like, you know, in Mormon land, if you're not married by 25, you know, something's wrong with you as well. And so it was really.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] The word is menace to society.

Julie [00:08:21] It was awful, honestly. But after that, I moved to a different ward about 30 minutes north, a really nice area. And it was a completely different vibe because it was all singles in their mid to late twenties who had careers and houses and were established. And church was really great because it was like Sunday school discussions were really intellectual and really interesting.

Julie [00:08:47] And yeah, I had a really great time there. Dating was fine. I would get asked out in person. I also used mutual. The Mormon, like Tinder, essentially. And I had a lot of, like, decent experiences, I guess I just. I was very much drank the Kool Aid on the whole, you know, any two people can make a marriage work if you put God first kind of a thing. And so I dated a lot of people that I was not at all attracted to just because I'm like, oh, they look nice or they're. I should give them a chance instead of actually dating people I was attracted to.

Julie [00:09:21] And. Yeah, so everything went well until about 2016, 2017, when the church switched from visiting teaching to ministering. And for whatever reason, that was like. It was a huge pivot, at least in my experience, because all the cool Sunday school lessons and stuff became just ministering. Everything was ministering for, like, a whole year. It was like trying to get give a cat medicine. It was just like, you know, shoving it down our throats. And it was just really. It got really repetitive and really boring. And I also, at that same time, took out my endowments, and it was awful, and I hated it.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] You didn't like the temple ceremony?

Julie [00:10:02] No, because it had been built up so much, and I was really excited to go. And I'd been wanting to go for a while, but it was not what I expected. And it was.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] If you had to describe it in a word, what would you describe the temple ceremony as?

Julie [00:10:14] Uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Okay. Yeah, okay.

Julie [00:10:17] Like, everyone is acting like this is normal, and it's very not okay. And so a combination of, like, church not being enjoyable anymore and having to, like, get over the hurdle of wearing garments, which I really didn't enjoy, and then I And in my late 20s, I was starting to age out of YSA ward as well.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] We'll come. We'll come back to that.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:41] Yeah, yeah.

Julie [00:10:42] And. And yeah, I moved to southern Utah.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Yeah. If you're not like in church, Mormon church, you better move to Utah. That makes all the. Makes all the sense in the world.

Jess [00:10:53] Right.

Julie [00:10:54] I mean, it was actually the perfect thing because I realized moving to, getting out of my community and getting, you know, moving away from my friends made all the flaws of the church really apparent. And because it wasn't, you know, covered with, you know, just community and all the glaring things like, I don't think God cares if I have sex before marriage. I don't think an all knowing, all loving God cares if I drink coffee.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] You had these realizations in Utah? Yeah, of all places.

Julie [00:11:20] I did.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] That makes all the sense.

Julie [00:11:23] Well, and it was just, it was during COVID and there were no activities and I didn't know anyone, and it was just. It was a very different experience.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] The Mormon wheels came off your wagon.

Julie [00:11:33] Yeah, it really did.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] All right, well, Julie, tell us why you would want to come on a YSA panel on Mormon stories to share your experiences. Just in a sentence or two.

Julie [00:11:42] To spill the tea.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Yeah, yeah, spill the tea.

Julie [00:11:45] Spill the tea.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] You have lots of tea.

Julie [00:11:47] Lay it all out.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Yeah, you have lots of tea.

Julie [00:11:49] I think the YSA experience is very different from a lot of people who get married young. And I think. And it's just a whole different culture and it's bonkers.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Okay, so. So you want to spill the tea? Share the tea. Okay, perfect. All right, Julie, thanks for coming on. Thank you, Dana, I think you're next.

Julie's Life at BYU and Early Marriage Pressures

Dana [00:12:06] All right. Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Hi.

Dana [00:12:10] So my Mormon story begins back in 1991. That's when I was born. My parents are both converts to the church. They both converted as adults. And so in our extended family, they are the only LDS people. And so that kind of, you know, different than especially a lot of people in Utah. So I was born outside of Chicago in Wheaton, Illinois, and that's where I grew up until I was 11 years old. So I think I had kind of a difference, probably similar to Julie, a little bit like a different than typical Utah Mormon growing up in the church, kind of an experience. And then when we were 11 or when I was 11, our family, we moved to Utah, as you do.

Meg [00:12:58] Right.

Dana [00:13:00] As a Mormon. So we moved to southern Utah as well. So there's another commonality there. We moved to Ivins, and so that's where my family has been My parents have been.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] Ivins is the home of Jodi Hildebrandt.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:12] Yes.

Jess [00:13:12] Yes.

Dana [00:13:12] And that was very. I mean, very dark, but very.

Jess [00:13:15] Yeah.

Dana [00:13:16] Put Ivins on the map. So thank you, Jody Hildebrand, for that. Yeah. Because nobody ever knew about us until now, but. Yeah. So I was very involved in church always. I always believed. I always tried to be just a very by the book, straight and narrow. I wanted to please everybody, and I really did believe. And so that was my growing up. I went into Young women's. I actually got my Young Women's medallion when I turned 13. So one year I did the whole thing, and that was like, I just. I'm very goal oriented, very driven, and that was kind of where, you know, like, that was my mindset was, I'm all in, I'm committed.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:02] Do you want to explain really quickly what that is? Just so people know what.

Dana [00:14:06] Yeah, for sure. So in the young women program, which is for girls from 12 to 18 years old, kind of the teenage group in the church, that's when the children are separated. Before that, all kids are together. When you turn 12, the boys go into young men's, girls go into young women's. And so there is a program called Personal Progress, I think. I don't know if it's still. You know, there's a lot of changes that have been happening, so I don't know if I've caught up with all of it, but it's Personal Progress is what it was called. And basically, there are these different areas, these different values, and you have, like, a little booklet, and it's basically, I kind of think about it, like Girl Scouts and merit badges.

Dana [00:14:48] Right. Where there's, like, these different areas and you do projects and you have these experiences, you get them passed off in your book. That basically is kind of helps you to become a righteous wife and mother someday. Like, that's really kind of the goal of the whole thing and, you know, to develop you spiritually and to, you know, just kind of prepare you for that life. So. And a lot of girls, like, it's meant to take the full six years of being in that program. And my mom was a young women's leader for a long time. And so I saw her, like, you know, there were seniors in high school.

Dana [00:15:25] They're about to graduate, and, like, the goal is for every girl to do it. Kind of like Eagle Scouts for boys. Right. I would say that's kind of maybe that's right. Similar.

Jess [00:15:33] Yeah.

Dana [00:15:33] And so I saw her, like, pulling some of these girls that were like seniors. Like, come on, you can do it. Like, we gotta hurry. And so I was like, I'm not gonna be like that. I'm gonna get it done now, like, in a year. And I got it done in a year.

Meg [00:15:44] I did it.

Dana [00:15:44] Yeah. So that just kind of like all that to say that's, you know, that was me as a Mormon. That was me as a Mormon. So then, you know, middle school,

Julie [00:15:56] it was.

Dana [00:15:57] I was always faithful. I always believed. Not to say that I didn't have challenges like any teenager does. I guess I had a lot of mental health challenges. I had, you know, just normal teenage stuff. But, you know, our family was very orthodox. Attended everything, did everything, seminary, all of it. And so by the time I graduated high school, it was onto the YSA Ward, which we'll get into.

Dana [00:16:30] So I did that whole thing. I went to college, I dated a whole bunch. I ended up going on a mission. It was the shortest mission ever. I think I was out for six weeks maybe before I came home. And I'm so grateful that I did. At the time, it was really hard, but now looking back, that was a big blessing. And then after the mission, that's when I finally went to Oz, as John calls it. I got to byu, and that's where I ended up finishing out my bachelor's degree. And then. Do you want me to kind of just get into my faith crisis?

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Meet the wizard? My whole life will change.

Dana [00:17:15] It did. My whole life changed. It was incredible. It was the best ever. But I graduated from BYU without being married, which is a big part of my story. It was absolutely devastating. And people might laugh or whatever, but it was devastating. I mean, yeah, I never thought that that would ever happen.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Why is that bad for Never Mormons? Why is it bad to graduate from byu, not married?

Dana [00:17:42] Well, first of all, because you're old by the time you graduate college. I was really old. I graduated when I was 24.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] And in Mormonism, spell it out for us.

Dana [00:17:55] Yeah. So 24. So 24 is menace to society. Right? Like you. So you. A lot of my friends, pretty much all of my friends at that point were married people. At byu, it's very, very common for BYU students to get married at any point during their schooling. And it's very common to see graduation pictures with, you know, a husband and a wife on the husband's graduation day, but then also, like a baby or two in the picture, too, because they're already a parent. And BYU is. It's Mormon Mecca. And that is where you go to find your Eternal companion.

Meg [00:18:33] To be chosen.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:35] Yeah, the idea is to be chosen.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] I mean, it is where I found mine.

Dana [00:18:38] Yeah. And you. I mean, that was what, a treasure that you found, John? That was my. That was my goal. You know, I wanted to be. I wanted to be Marky and find my John. And it didn't happen. And so, you know, you really just kind of will get into this more, but you just. It's kind of almost impossible not to believe that there is something inherently wrong with you as a person when you are doing everything that you can. You're righteous, you're cute, you're. You know, if I may say so myself, especially back then, you know, it's been like 10 years, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:17] Oh, come on now.

Dana [00:19:20] But, you know, like, you. It's just, you know, what is wrong with me? And being conditioned, like, through that whole personal progress and young women's program too, throughout all my teenage years, it was, you will become a wife and a mother, and that's gonna be the greatest thing ever. And so just the fear of, I'm graduating college, I'm not gonna be a college student anymore. What am I gonna be? I'm not gonna be a wife yet. Right. Like, I'm like, I'm going into a non student YSA ward. Like, ah, like that's. Yeah, yeah. Terrifying. Terrifying. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:55] So.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] So there's a. So there's this tier difference and I don't want to lose track of your stories, but yeah, so there's. There's like BYU YSA awards or student YSA awards and then non university student YSA awards and there's a difference. How would you do if y' all were to describe the difference at a high level? What's the difference? Is there a big difference?

Meg [00:20:19] I mean. Go ahead. I feel like the mood is different when you're in the student ward. You're there and you're like, kind of like, hungry because it's the meat market. And then when you move to the non student ward, it's a little bit more depressing because everyone kind of realizes you're all in this together, but you're also not all in this together. And I think that that is something that's really difficult to come to terms with.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] I'm almost getting kind of Land of the Broken Toys vibes.

Jess [00:20:43] The non student island of Misfit Toys.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Is that kind of the vibe? It's like, yeah, we're all the ones that didn't get married at one of the BYU's.

Julie [00:20:52] Yeah.

Jess [00:20:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Is that fair?

Dana [00:20:54] I think so.

Meg [00:20:54] It's like the airport, you didn't actually catch the flight. You're still at the airport.

Dana [00:20:59] That is such a good. Yeah. Such a good analogy.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:01] So you're waiting.

Meg [00:21:02] Yep. You're waiting. And that is your goal. Your ticket hasn't expired, but it's not time to go.

Julie [00:21:07] And as a non student ward, like, even the, like the normal ysa. The normal ysa word is very much like, we don't know what to do with you, so we're going to corral you all and put you over here. And it's under the impression it's. They tell you that it's like, oh, well, you know, we just want you to have people your own age and to get married and blah, blah, blah. But it does feel like if you choose to say stay in your homeward, then you are definitely like, it's awkward and it's weird and why are you here?

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Okay, perfect. Keep going. Yeah, this is good. Thanks, Dana.

Dana [00:21:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:40] So

Dana [00:21:43] I graduated from byu. I, you know, throughout this whole time I've been dating and nothing's coming of it. And it's every, every breakup, completely devastating. Like, completely devastating. And I even like, my voice is starting to crack just talking about it like that.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] But anyway, devastating because like Mormonism teaches our purpose in life is to have a temple marriage, an eternal marriage with kids. And so every relationship is super high stakes.

Dana [00:22:13] Every date is super high stakes. Like not even every relationship. Every date. And I know it's kind of like laughed about and joked about, but every date is an interview for marriage. And especially as a young woman, I, I mean, I can't speak for young men, but it feels like a very unequal power dynamic between young men and young women where. And again, I don't want to speak for men and I could be totally off on how they perceive it, but as a woman, the way that I perceive, the way that I perceive it is that women, we have been taught, like, we need to get married. It almost, it feels like men have all the power, which, you know, Mormonism, hello.

Jess [00:22:59] Right.

Dana [00:23:00] Yeah, they do have all the power. But in those relationship dynamics that a man, it's like a man is going, like you said, right. You want to be chosen. And so you are just trying to be as pleasing to this man in lots of different ways to be chosen. And so it's like from that first date, you know, you're just, you're trying to hook him in. You're trying to, to find that eternal companion. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:26] So it kind of reminds me too a little bit of like Women raised in the church, it being just such a small box that you. And you only really have value inside that box. Meaning, like in this one way, married, have children, or. So it's reminding me as you're going through your story, this moment of realizing maybe when you graduate from byu, oh, now I'm like outside the box. I'm outside this space where I have value. And then every date is like a

Jess [00:23:57] potential ticket of getting.

Dana [00:23:58] Exactly. Of getting the box onto the path.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:01] Then you'll have the value again.

Dana [00:24:03] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. As a BYU student, you kind of. Or any college student, you're kind of like, okay, well, I'm in college. Right. Which most Mormons, I would say they do get married in college or by college age. But it gives you kind of that out. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, at that point you're like, oh, now I'm just kind of free falling, like, what am I doing here? So it was about a year, a little over a year after I graduated from byu, got a job, worked, all of that, and then that was kind of when my faith crisis kind of came on. And it actually was precipitated by being single in the church and that just really, really not working and just being way too painful and just trying to make it work. And it just, at least for me, didn't work.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:53] Yeah. Yep, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] But you were in YSA Awards for.

Dana [00:24:58] So for about, let's see, I don't know, six years. Yeah. So from when I was 18 to 20. No, I'm getting this. Sorry. Eight years, I think. I think it was. Yeah. Seven or eight years. I was in different YSA wards. Yeah. All over the place.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] And Julie, how many years were you in YSA wards, do you think?

Julie [00:25:20] 10 plus.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] 10 plus years.

Julie [00:25:22] Yeah, because I left the church officially like three years ago, so 31.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] Would you say YSA wards contributed to your disaffection too?

Julie [00:25:31] Oh, completely. Because as I reached my late 20s, I realized that, you know, I didn't believe that, you know, sex outside of marriage was a sin. And if I. What happens if I choose not to get married anymore and maybe I don't want to get married? And if I don't get married, how do I fit in to the church? And how does the church view single people? Like, not just single women. Like, single guys in the church are like weirdos, you know?

Meg [00:25:58] Yeah.

Julie [00:25:59] And it. Which is terrible. And you can't hold a high calling if you're not married as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:04] Right.

Julie [00:26:04] And so you can't be bishop. You can't do anything if you're not married as guy. And so, yeah, it was very much like, I don't. What if I don't want to get married? And I don't think this is working for me anymore. And there's just so much pressure. There's like, so it's just a deadline, you know, it's, are you gonna age out? Are you gonna get married? You need to have kids, you need to get married. And so once I was like, you know what? Why is the plan of happiness making me so miserable?

Julie [00:26:31] I'm gonna step back, not go to church for a while. Also, my word was at 8:30 in the morning. And who wants to do that? And so I took a step back, stopped going for a while, and it was just weight lifted off my shoulders. Like, I don't have to worry about getting married anymore. I don't like this. There's. There's no deadline.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Yeah.

Julie [00:26:50] And it was great.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:52] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Any final things? Your overview story?

Dana [00:26:56] I think that pretty much. Do you want us to kind of give like our intention. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] Why did you want to come on Mormon Stories?

Dana [00:27:02] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Be on this panel.

Jess [00:27:05] So I

Dana [00:27:09] have found a lot of comfort and a lot of knowledge that has, you know, honestly kind of changed the trajectory of my life through Mormon Stories. Not to sound too dramatic, but I was talking with John about the first Mormon Stories episode that I ever watched and how it just helped. It just was so validating to me. And I'm a person, I need a lot of validation.

Dana [00:27:34] And so just to feel seen and heard and, you know, that I'm not crazy. And so if I can, you know, be that voice. And I'm so happy that you guys are doing this panel because I really believe that women, and single women especially, are underrepresented, maybe because the story really is so. So often, the early marriage, all of that. And so if I can just be like one voice out there to speak out and say, you know, maybe just be a little bit critical and push back a little bit and talk about what happens when it doesn't work. And I actually have. I brought my scriptures, I brought my.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] That's a Glennon Doyle book.

Dana [00:28:21] Yes, the. The Gospel of Glennon Doyle. This book, like, I got it when it first came out, it was like during COVID 2020. And it's gotten me through a lot of different points in my life. But she just has some really good one liners. And I had a couple things like, as far as my intention goes, I think she just says it best. But blessed are those brave enough to make things awkward, for they wake up. They wake us up and move us forward. So I'm okay with making things awkward. I'm okay with Berlioz putting myself out there into awkward places.

Dana [00:28:54] Also, brave means living from the inside out. In every uncertain moment, turning inward, feeling for the knowing, and speaking it out loud. So that's what I'm doing today. And sometimes being brave means letting everyone down but yourself. So I know that by being here and by, you know, talking about these things, there probably are going to be some people that maybe feel like I'm letting them down, but I'm being true and authentic to myself and letting myself speak where I felt like I could not speak for so long.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:27] So much love for that.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] Thanks, Dana.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:30] Yeah.

Meg's Story and Church Experiences

John Dehlin [00:29:30] All right. On to Meg. Hey, Meg.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:32] Hi.

Meg [00:29:33] Hello. Hello. I'm Meg. I'm from Bountiful, Utah. I'm 25 years old and I had the completely Utah Mormon experience growing up.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] And tell everyone where Bountiful is.

Meg [00:29:43] It's just north of Salt Lake, like right there. A lot of the general authorities live there.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] And so I was where Elder Jeffrey Holland. I think.

Meg [00:29:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Raised his family.

Meg [00:29:51] Yep. And then President Nelson and President Utforth. They were all in kind of the area where I grew up. So kind of the limits were on. Everyone knew. And everyone was very devout in my area.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] In the shadow of the Bountiful Temple.

Meg [00:30:04] Yes.

Dana [00:30:04] Yep.

Meg [00:30:05] About 15 minutes away. So I sometimes go on runs there and back because it's a really nice 10 mile run. So that's kind of the area that I grew up in. My family definitely is very religious. My parents had very high callings and they were very devout. I always personally struggled with the church in young women's. I really didn't like that we always had to sing. I don't know why that was like the biggest thing for me, but it was always the young women sing and the young men never had to sing. And I was like, why? I hate singing. They also got to do the fun, like high adventure. We did crafts, which I love crafts, Creative person. But I'm also very into sports.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:41] Yeah.

Meg [00:30:41] So really in high school, I started having doubts. I really didn't believe. I'm intellectual and kind of very into academics and stuff. Just never clicked for me. It never really did. And so following high school, I just stopped going to church. I still was following the rules, you know, I was making sure that I lived according to the standards, but I really wasn't going. And after finishing college, I moved out to the east Coast. And I will say the church does an incredibly great job of providing community, being immediately integrated into a social circle. That's where I met one of my best friends to this day.

Meg [00:31:15] And so I went socially and I didn't go to sacrament meeting or any of the classes afterwards because I was on the Munch and Mingle committee, which we can talk about in detail. Munch and Mingle, Munch and Mingle, Mingle and Munch, if you will. Sometimes basically after the two hour block, you could get together with members of the ward and there was food provided and just a chance to kind of talk where I was going in the east coast, why I say Philadelphia ward. It was a really great time because there wasn't a lot of people that had family out there. So that was kind of like the family dinner for the week.

Meg [00:31:47] Then I moved back to Utah and I started having a lot of mental health struggles that I do relate to the church. And I decided to kind of reexamine everything in my life and decide, is

John Dehlin [00:31:57] it fair to say the YSA experience was a part of that mental health experience?

Meg [00:32:02] Yes, I think when I was in Philadelphia, it was more just a group of friends. And then my friends started getting married and the ward started changing and that was really hard because I had such a great group of friends. And then I moved back to Utah and I went to a singles board and it was just like, oh, I forgot what it was like just because I really hadn't been to church in a couple of years at that point.

Meg [00:32:23] And I just really struggled with it. My mental health started struggling, I started struggling with that a lot. And I took a step back and said, I'm going to reexamine everything in my life. The church, my education, my job. What do I really want to pursue? And so after taking that step back, it kind of came to the conclusion of like, I am a lot happier when I'm not going to relieve society. When I'm not going to church. I still decided I'll go to sports activities. I love playing volleyball. And even that came to the point where I kind of felt I could be free and independent.

Meg [00:32:52] And that was a really beautiful moment for me to kind of come into my own and recognize like, I get to have a voice, I get to do what I want. And it's not going to be anything like what I was taught or what I was raised to kind of believe in. I've always been very independent. Going to college, I actually didn't feel any pressure to get married because I was like, I'm going to be like, corporate boss bitch, babe. I'm rising to the top. It turns out that was actually not. That was part of the things that got reexamined.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:19] Hey, but you explore.

Meg [00:33:20] I explored, yeah. And so I was always just very academically competitive and had a really great group of friends, but marriage was never really on the mind until I came back to Utah. And that's really when it started going downhill, just because there was such a pressure and I didn't really understand why. I was like, well, can I just go get an education and, like, continue my career? And a lot of people were like, you're stuck at the airport, babe. Like, let's get you on a flight.

Dana [00:33:45] Yeah.

Meg [00:33:45] So I'd say about two years ago, it's kind of when my faith deconstruction began. And from there on, I've just been reexamining every part of my life, and I've really come to love it. I think my biggest intention for coming on Mormon Stories is to let others know that it's okay. It's okay to be in a space where it's uncomfortable. It's okay to be in a space where you don't know and your worth isn't dependent on your faith at all. And so just. It's cliche. But if you go find yourself and love yourself, you're gonna be so much happier than if you try and fit into a box.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:16] Beautiful. I just wanna say, when we screened for panelists, we didn't screen for people that had a bad experience with ysa. We didn't screen for people that, you know, for whom the YSA experience gave them depression or, you know, was wrecking their lives. So that's three for three. Sort of just like what stories came to us. So, I mean, it's not, so far, not a very good batting record for the YSA program for women, almost kind of randomly, because. Again. Yeah.

Jess [00:34:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:51] And as the person who went through the submissions, I actually don't remember a very positive female YSA experience coming through in any submission.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] And, I mean, that might be bias. Like, Mormon stories. Mormon stories bias. But not necessarily. Like, I had a great. I feel like my IM Mormon upbringing was fantastic. Like, I. You can. I was a guy, you know, and straight. Right. Like, it was great. Right? Straight. Yeah. But I mean, anyway, I think they're actually. I think the majority of people we interview on Mormon Stories say they had a great Mormon experience.

Julie [00:35:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:29] But I think, you know, there's that statistic that I think we May have heard from someone in this room that like 40% of returned missionaries are leaving the church within six months. And I would bet the YSA experience might be part of that reason for the disaffection. I think there's a problem with the YSA experience.

Meg [00:35:50] I think if you've been told your entire life you have one purpose and you can't fulfill that purpose, and it's just kind of pushed on you over and over again. It's just like, well, why am I even doing this thing? Instead of really letting people have individuality and conforming, I think, and not fulfilling

Dana [00:36:04] the purpose, like for no fault from no fault of your own, despite trying and working so hard on it. And especially, like, it sounds like, you know, you, like, you're a high achiever, right? You set goals, you're a go getter, you're a boss bitch. And so, like, I kind of identify with that as well. And like, that's like the one area in my life where I can't make that happen on my own. And so that's just the most frustrating thing is, like, I can, you know, get this degree and I can get this job and I can buy my own house and I can do all of it, except I can't, you know, make somebody marry me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] You're in a PhD program, right?

Dana [00:36:39] I am, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meg [00:36:41] Okay, what's that idea of, like, perfected through everything? And it was the area that I could not perfect no matter what. And that was a very big part of my deconstruction and reexamining myself was, why do I need to be perfect? Like, why is that an actual thing? And it's still something that's difficult for me today. But saying, like, if everyone was perfect, like, that would actually be no fun because there would be no failure and there'd be nothing that we could learn.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:02] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Well, Meg, thanks for sharing the intro to your story. Thanks for coming on.

Meg [00:37:08] We appreciate you.

Jess's Story and Mission Experience

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Yeah. And that leaves us with Jess. Hey, Jess. Hi. Yeah, well, we're glad you're here. Tell us a little bit about. Your story's a little bit different than the other three because. What do you want to say? Go ahead and say.

Jess [00:37:23] I mean, there's lots of ways that it's different, I guess. Starting from the top. I'm Jess. I'm 25. I've technically, I'm still in YSA, but I have reached Menace to Society level. I am from small town Arizona. My family, we grew up in the church. Currently My brothers, my two brothers aren't really doing the church thing right now, but my parents are super faithful, believing members. I am in a really strange place. I'm currently going to byu.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] That's what I meant by. Your story is different.

Jess [00:38:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] You're currently a BYU student.

Jess [00:38:15] Yeah, I am. I'm at BYU right now.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] And we have to just acknowledge that's. Some would say that's introducing some risk into your life to. To speak openly and even to come on Mormon stories as a BYU student.

Jess [00:38:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] And we talked about this ahead of time, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:32] Yeah.

Jess [00:38:32] I think from a completely reasonable human being point of view, nothing I say should get me kicked off, but we've seen recently that it doesn't necessarily have to be a reasonable human being kind of point of view. But so, I mean, in that case, I mean, for people who don't know, if you enter BYU as a member and you can no longer, they have what's called an ecclesiastical endorsement, where it's an interview with your bishop and you basically have to affirm that you believe all of these things. It's kind of like a temple recommend interview, but to go to school.

Julie [00:39:13] So.

Jess [00:39:16] And with that, I haven't really felt safe to fully question and examine my beliefs. And so I guess at this moment of time, I would consider myself a member with concerns. Like I said.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Yeah. If you leave the church as a BYU student, stop going, lose your faith.

Jess [00:39:46] You get expelled.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Yeah.

Jess [00:39:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] And you don't even have to have sex or drink coffee or heaven forbid

Jess [00:39:54] for. Last time I renewed my ecclesiastical endorsement. It was almost. The only thing that was wrong was that I had a really hard time saying that I sustained the first Presidency. And that was like, one thing that almost. I almost needed to change schools just because of that. So that's a whole other conversation. It's frustrating, but, yeah, it's. It's been an interesting ride. My family comes from pioneer stock. I have lots of, like, pioneer lore in my family. Somewhere out there, there's a sword that Joseph Smith gave to one of my great, great, great, great grandpas, and his wife sewed the first pair of garments. Like, we're really. Or really? You're in the lore. Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:46] You're in the founding lore.

Jess [00:40:48] Yeah.

Meg [00:40:48] Yep.

Jess [00:40:51] Which I. I always found, you know, deep pride in that. I was a really scrupulous kid. I was really, really in it. And I. I loved it. I. I think one time my mom was cooking with wine and I found out, and I scolded her. I was like, mom, how dare you bring that into our house.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:16] You're like, are you trying to ruin us all?

Jess [00:41:19] Yeah.

Dana [00:41:19] What is wrong with you?

Jess [00:41:20] Yeah. And I would often, like, drag my family to church, and I would. You know, I. I was. I was a pretty judgmental kid, and I. Yeah. I don't know. And I was always really worried about how to be more righteous. I remember when I got my patriarchal blessing, it talked about, if you want to go on a mission, it'll be really good. And I was like, well, if I want, should I go or not? And I was like, I remember reading my journal, and I have. I'm, like, worrying about it specifically because I had a crush on a guy. And I was like, okay, well, it's either going on a mission or marrying this guy. And, like, a freshman in high school,

Meg [00:42:13] clearly, these are the only two options available to you.

Julie [00:42:16] Yeah.

Jess [00:42:16] So I was really stressed out about it. I was seeking, you know, counsel from my elders, A junior in high school. So, yeah, really, really into it. I went to college for a year after high school, skipping forward a little bit, and decided that I. I did want to go on a mission. And so after some road bumps, which might come up, maybe, Maybe not.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Why I say road bumps. Okay.

Jess [00:42:49] Why I say road bumps? Dating road bumps.

Julie [00:42:53] Yeah.

Jess [00:42:54] One in the same. I. I ended up. I went on a mission. I went to North Carolina. And it. I feel like, in my mind, I have two missions. I have the bad mission, then I have the good mission. You know, they kind of existed side by side, but I would just kind of, like, slip into. I just. I just. I think I filed my memories into two different missions. It's hard for me to see them in a nuanced way. I'm either like, oh, my mission was awesome, or I'm like, oh, that was the worst thing that happened.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:28] Yeah.

Jess [00:43:28] But anyways, so I got home, and I decided to go to byu because it's the Lord's university and my mission. I was so. I remember Elder Bednar came to visit our mission, and he was like, if you go back to normal after this, your entire mission will have been a waste. And I was like, I spent a lot of time and money and heartache here, and I do not want it to be a waste. So I was like, I'm gonna go to byu. I'm gonna, you know, get married, find somebody, and, you know, life's gonna be perfect. I came back, I went to byu,

Julie [00:44:16] and

Jess [00:44:19] as I started to become more educated and kind of learn more about myself and who I am outside of church, specifically, Politically, like, I got really into politics, and I kind of realized that, like, my moral compass points a little differently than the church. And that was troubling to me, and I couldn't understand why, because the church gave me my moral compass. And so how is it possible for me to be seeing discrepancies? And so, you know, dealing with that a lot and then finally giving myself permission to believe other sources and come to trust other sources and learning things that, you know, you don't learn in Sunday school that, you know, demand to be grappled with. So that's. That's a

John Dehlin [00:45:22] summary.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] You know, and why would you want to come on the podcast and on this panel and especially as a. As a current BYU student?

Jess [00:45:31] Yeah, I. I've been working on not being afraid to have conversations. I think it's really about respecting myself and using my voice when I have the opportunity to. And really similarly to Dana, I think I have found a lot of comfort in this arena where I've kind of been, like, stuck in the middle for quite some time, and I want to be that voice. You know, if my experience resonates with somebody else, they know that they're not the only one. But also if it doesn't resonate with someone, I would hope that that could be a way for them to expand their perspective a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. Okay, well, we've done our intros. Let's dive in. Let me just start, if it's all right, with some Mormon theology and probably some Mormon policy that we've already touched on briefly. But I'm just going to ask you all to comment on any who wants to, on what's the problem with the church's sort of goals and ambitions for you, for women specifically. So I think the church probably believes that a woman's place is generally in the home. That's the best place for a woman, that a woman is. You know, the family proclamation that the First Presidency signed, the top church leaders signed says that a woman, her role in life is to have babies, to nurture them, to create a beautiful home for her husband, for herself, and for her children, and that ultimately you'll find the most joy and fulfillment as a woman raising, having and raising children, that that's the noblest calling you'll have, and that by doing that, you'll be able to, with your husband and your children, all go to the celestial kingdom when you're all dead and be together forever and probably reign and rule in the heavens as a God and goddess over your own worlds.

The Church's Vision for Women's Roles

John Dehlin [00:47:43] And Kingdoms forever and ever. And by the way, you get to raise these beautiful children who you'll help them be righteous and faithful, and you'll have all sorts of joy with a big posterity being in charge of a beautiful home. So I think that's.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] That's the church's vision for you. What's wrong? So is that okay? How do y' all feel about that church's vision for you? You like it? You don't like it. Any problems and we'll go in reverse order. So, Jess, we'll have you go first.

Jess [00:48:19] Yeah. So I definitely got that messaging at church.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] Did I get it wrong or did I.

Jess [00:48:26] No, no. What I will say is that at home with my family, I didn't super get that message. You know, the message from your parents,

Meg [00:48:37] you're saying, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jess [00:48:38] The message at church was upheld. But my family is also really big on education. My mom works.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:45] I think she.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] This is a non traditional Mormon home, I guess.

Jess [00:48:49] So I wouldn't have considered it that at the time, and I don't think my parents would consider it non traditional at all. But they. It was assumed that everyone was going to go to college and everyone was going to get an education and get a job. Like, I grew up being like, yeah, I'm going to have a career. I grew up thinking, yeah, I'm going to have a family. But I was like, I'll do both.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] Surely, you know, that's. Well, do you know that that's kind of. You know, I've probably interviewed hundreds of women on Mormon stories and might be one of the only women I've ever interviewed that got that message growing up. I'm not trying to gaslight you or.

Jess [00:49:29] No.

Dana [00:49:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Do you. Are you aware that you're probably super rare?

Jess [00:49:33] I mean, I, I'm, I'm. I'm vaguely aware. I still, I'm like, I have a hard time believing that. Like, I know that a lot of people get the message that, like, you should just be home, but yeah, I.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] That's not your fate. That's not your experience. That's good.

Jess [00:49:50] Yeah. Yeah, I know other people have had different experiences.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Okay.

Jess [00:49:54] Yeah. So, I mean, I feel lucky. My parents are really great, but once I got to byu, and it's, it's funny because my parents specifically wanted to raise us outside of Utah, and I could never understand that. I came home from my mission and I was like, I would like to transfer to byu. And my parents were like, you sure? I don't think you'll like it. And I was like, what do you mean?

John Dehlin [00:50:21] What's there not to love when you're with the wizard?

Jess [00:50:23] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] Your whole life will change.

Jess [00:50:27] So. But it really is different and it's so hard to articulate the differences. They're just so. It's so hard to describe. Yeah, but I, once I got here, I really started to feel the pressure of getting married. I mean, maybe it's. It's a virtue of just getting older and I happened to be at byu, but, yeah, I think I really started to feel it once I got here. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] So you're just a summary of how you feel. The Mormon Church's proclamation on the family, it's laying out of what, what a woman's life should be. How do you feel about that?

Jess [00:51:11] Frankly, I don't think I could tell you, like, the tenets of the family proclamation right now.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] It's not that relevant to your life. Okay, that's fine.

Jess [00:51:19] I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:19] Let me ask you a question this way for sure. In your experience at BYU with other, you know, women you knew at byu, how, like, did you find other people like yourself that we're planning on working? I'm curious if it's generational, if, you know, it's actually something that we're seeing more and younger, like in a different generation now that may be changing. Like in your experience, in your friendships, has it changed? Do you think women are like, no, I'm going to have a job and I'm going to be a Mormon mom?

Meg [00:51:56] Yeah.

Jess [00:51:56] I think that it's kind of a combination of different things. I think from a secular perspective, it's really difficult to have only one income per household unless you're really raking it in. But then also, I think, I guess, like to directly answer your question, I think a lot of my friends and people that I know have that perspective as well. But I think that's also probably because I'm in college. And so I'm sure some, some people are there getting their Mrs. Degree or whatever, but I think a lot of people are there to actually get a degree and they have an idea of what they want to do as a career.

Jess [00:52:41] I will say that I think some people are working towards a career, but it's more of like a just in case I don't find somebody. Yeah, backup plan. Yeah. So, okay. I think, I think generally we're moving towards there a variety of variables that are pushing us there, but yeah.

Julie [00:53:04] Okay, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] And just to put a fine point on it, so if I were to state to you my understanding of the church's desires for you that they think will lead to your greatest happiness. Your role, Jess, is to get married to a Mormon guy, have as many babies as you can, build a beautiful home, stay home, not have a full. Not have a job, not work outside the home, nurture your children, make your husband happy, cook, clean, make a beautiful home, and then have grandbabies.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:34] I would add to that. It's also serve the rest of the day. So, like, if you have extra time, then relief Society yourself or young women yourself or. You know what I mean? But it's serve, serve, serve, serve, serve.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] How does that feel for you, the life you want to live? And there's no right answer, obviously.

Jess [00:53:55] How does it feel for me? I think a lot of that would be great. I genuinely do want to have a family, and if I were privileged enough to not have to work, I think I would still want to do something outside of family. I have done some, like, babysitting, nannying, work. And I know people say it's different when it's your kids, but sometimes I have a hard time believing that. And I'm just like, I need a. This is a lot right now. But I. Yeah, I think there's parts of it. I would love to have a family. I do. I really want to have a family.

Julie [00:54:35] I.

Jess [00:54:41] It's the church ideal. It's the Disney ideal. It's the Western ideal. Like.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Yeah.

Meg [00:54:46] A lot of layers.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] And there's. And we. We're validating.

Julie [00:54:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] So for you, that's not a bad fit.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:51] And I'm also hearing.

Jess [00:54:52] Yeah, that.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:53] Exactly. That it's. It kind of feels like a good fit.

John Dehlin [00:54:56] It's a good fit.

Meg [00:54:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:57] For me.

Jess [00:54:57] And I, I, I recognize that it's not a good fit for a lot of people.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Well, we'll see. We'll see how the other panel is.

Jess [00:55:03] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Okay. So. All right.

Jess [00:55:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] Thanks, Jess. All right. On to you, Meg. How's as. As I've kind of tried to lay it out. How does that future fit for you?

Generational Differences and Marriage Pressure

Meg [00:55:13] Well, I think the first thing is it's very interesting because there's, like, this idea of agency, and it's like. But you actually should want to choose this. Like, you can choose, but these are the right choices. I do know. So I'm very independent. I hate the status quo of, like, like, singing in young women. It's like, I don't know why. That just made me so mad. It did. Anyone who knows me will know that.

Meg [00:55:35] So I think that being taught that I was always like, absolutely not. That is not going to be for me. That's not what I'm going to do. And that really has informed what I have done, the career choices I've made. And where I'm going to grad school now is because I've kind of been following that path on my own. And I will say, growing up, my dad was very encouraging of, like, we would talk the stock market, I'd watch CNBC with him. I'd be like, why is this red? Why is this green? And at 7 years old, I don't think you should do that. But that's what I was doing.

Meg [00:56:03] And I think that the way that he encouraged me to pursue that and kind of, they both my parents recognized early of, like, yeah, she's not going to go with the grain. That really did give me confidence going into college and being like, I am going to do what I want to do. I'm going to be independent. And I think that was something that was difficult for me in the YSA was the fact that it was like, you should want to choose this and it should be your, like, biggest dream. And I was like, but it's not.

Meg [00:56:28] And so I think now there is an idea of, I still do want a family, but it's not going to be, like, lots of kids. It's maybe one or two kids. And being able to prioritize both having a career as well as having a family and doing that in a way that's comfortable for me.

Jess [00:56:42] Right.

Meg [00:56:42] This is the way that I was. You know, a lot of the education I received in seminary and I never went to institute because they always had this thing of, like, it's a degree that you can actually get, like a degree of glory. And I was like, fuck that.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Did you just say the F word?

Meg [00:56:57] I did.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:58] I did.

Meg [00:56:58] On Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] So be you. You be you.

Julie [00:57:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Okay.

Meg [00:57:04] That's my experience.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] Perfect. Okay, good, good. All right, Dana, you're next.

Julie [00:57:09] Okay.

Dana [00:57:10] So, yeah, I've had a lot of thoughts as I've been listening to you guys talk about this. So I would say, as far as the generational thing, Margi, I definitely have seen a shift. I think that, you know, and there's a lot of factors that go into that. I've had friends, you know, like, when I was at BYU and, you know, like, in that singles ward, YSA ward, I had friends who were in college. And again, I kind of see what Jess is saying, where it's kind of like a, you know, like a sampling bias almost, where it's like, well, if I'm in college, then the people that I know are in college.

Dana [00:57:43] And a lot of the time that means that they are pursuing some type of a career. But I had that, you know, following them on Facebook, seeing their life trajectory. Like, they did get married and they did have a baby, but they're also, you know, have some, like, big fancy job, like, in San Francisco or whatever. And so they kind of are having it all. So I think we're seeing a lot more of that, which is great. That's awesome. And I think that would be more of the vision that I would have had for myself.

Dana [00:58:12] So growing up. Yes, absolutely. All of that, John, like, that was the dream, right? That was. I would have, like, literally just daydreams about my life, right? Like, I was like, can I just, you know, can we skip to the good part, right? Can I wake up and have a family and be a wife and all of that. That was. That was the dream. And I think. Did the family proclamation come out in the 90s? Okay, so, like, as I'm growing up, right, like, that is kind of in my sphere of influence. And that was a big. That was a big thing, you know, like, and I took that seriously.

Dana [00:58:46] It was a very, you know, that was a big influence in my life. I would say that whole idea, that was a big part of what made being single so hard for me, because that was the dream. That was the goal. And so when it's not happening, it becomes incredibly difficult. I will say

Julie [00:59:13] I had a hard

Dana [00:59:14] time deciding what to major in in college, similar to you guys, where my parents were very supportive of me getting an education. They had money set aside, you know, like, they were all in for it for all of their kids, and I'm so grateful for that. But it took me a little while, and I switched schools and I switched majors. But I think looking back, I'm like, I had such an internal struggle where I knew that I was gonna be a wife and a mom. And so it's like, what do I pick that feels true to me, but also is going to fit in with that.

Dana [00:59:47] And so I've always wanted to be a teacher. And spoiler alert, that's what I ended up doing and being. But, you know, I went through some times, and I decided that I was going to major in fashion merchandising when I was in college. I was sophomore in college, so I actually moved out to Boston and went to a school that specialized in fashion, and I was only there for a semester. Ended up being kind of a Disaster mental health wise, you know, dropping a Utah Mormon into, you know, Boston.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] Big bad Boston.

Dana [01:00:20] What was that?

John Dehlin [01:00:20] Big, bad Boston.

Dana [01:00:21] Yeah, big bad Boston. And, you know, the college scene out there is no joke. Like, you know, these people, like, they know how to, like, you know, drink hard. Yeah, yeah, no, they college hard. Like, they party hard out there. So it was just a complete shock for me anyways.

Dana [01:00:38] It was hard being out there, but I was really excited and passionate about, you know, I wanted to be, like, a buyer for Nordstrom or something like that. Or, you know, I had, like, an internship lined up with anthropology. Like, it was. It was just awesome. Like, amazing opportunities that I was so excited about. But I can remember a moment in time where I just said, you know what?

Dana [01:00:58] This is going to be a lot of money. Like, it was expensive, right, to go to school out there. This is going to be a lot of money. I'm away from my family. And realistically, is this going to be worth it? Because when I get married and have kids, can I go be a big buyer for Nordstrom, right? Can I go and realistically do this? And my answer was like, no, that's not my path. And so I shut that down and went to byu.

Dana [01:01:24] My major at BYU was Family and Consumer Science Education, Facts for short, which is the new name for home economics. So I literally became a home economics teacher. And I did have. I remember I was, like, walking home from Ysa Ward Church 1 day with, like, some random guy, and, you know, we're like, talking, and he's like, well, what's your major? And I'm like, family and Consumer Science. And he goes, oh, so you're getting a mommy major. That's what he called it. He called it a mommy major.

Dana [01:01:55] I was like, excuse me. But it really was all of the things. Like, I didn't just pick that major because I'm like, oh, this is gonna, like, turn me into the perfect Mormon housewife. Honestly, I've always been the perfect Mormon housewife. And I will just say, like, this is what bothers me so much, is that I would have been the best Mormon wife ever. Like, committed to the church, you know, righteous. All these things, like, creative, wanting to raise kids. A great, crafty, creative. Right? Like, fun. All of these things.

Meg [01:02:31] The next Relief Society president.

Dana [01:02:33] Yes, absolutely. And I was. I was a Relief Society president in the Ysa Wards, you know, but that was me. And so that major kind of at BYU kind of wrapped in all of my interests. So anyway, that was what I ended up doing. And again, even, like, Graduating byu. Okay. Now I'm a family and consumer science teacher. Marry me.

Julie [01:02:52] Right.

Dana [01:02:53] Like, hello, like, here I am. So. So anyway, that's what I would say about all of that. That it definitely has. I would say, like, kind of fucked with my life choices and my feelings and, you know, now I'm in a place where. And I don't know if we want to, like, get into this right now, but I actually, for some different health reasons, I had a hysterectomy and had my ovaries removed a few months ago. So it's, like, very recent.

Dana [01:03:25] And, like, I've been out of the church for eight years, and it's still, like. I mean, for any woman. Right. Like, that's gonna be incredibly hard. Probably. I don't know. But for me, where I always wanted to be a wife and a mom and now, you know, like, that's not so much. The wife part isn't so much on my radar. The mom thing definitely is.

Dana [01:03:51] And so, yeah, that's hard to just have that completely taken away, you know, and it's just. It is so Mormon. And I think it would be hard for anybody but somebody who is raised and believed so deeply in Mormonism and in that ideal of who a woman is.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:15] Right.

Dana [01:04:16] Divine nature. My divine worth. My divine nature is in being a wife and a mom. And so to like, have that just be so final. It was hard. It was really hard. And it still is.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:34] Yeah.

Meg [01:04:34] And I'm.

Dana [01:04:34] I mean, I hope to maybe adopt still someday, but, like, it's weird just to even think I will never have, like, biological, like, you know, because the church, it's so much like, you know, your. Your ancestors and you're passing things down and.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:51] I mean.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] Posterity, Right?

Dana [01:04:53] Yeah, posterity, Exactly. That's the word, right? Posterity. Like, you know, I'm like, I don't. Sorry, but I don't have.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:02] Yeah.

Dana [01:05:03] You know, like, it's just not gonna happen for me now. And obviously, like, I'm not. That sounded really bad. I'm saying, like, if and when I adopt, obviously, like, that child is my

Julie [01:05:15] child

Dana [01:05:17] and all of that.

Julie [01:05:18] But

Dana [01:05:21] thank you anyways. That was kind of a. Yeah. But, yeah, as far as, you know, talking about the ideal wife, the ideal mother, the ideal woman, and Mormonism, I mean, really, I've kind of failed, even though I tried so hard. And I really am, like, deep down who I am, I have so much love to give, and I have so much to offer in so many different ways. Intellectually, spiritually, you know, like, I. But for Whatever reason, it didn't happen. And I'm grateful. You know, don't get me wrong, I'm so grateful for where I am in my life right now, but it's hard.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:04] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Thank you so much for sharing that. And that's really personal.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] Insensitive stuff.

Dana [01:06:10] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] And I, I just thought I'd Google, you know, for infertility, you know, issues. And what, what, you know, Google AI is telling me is that about 15% of couples in the US have trouble conceiving children.

Dana [01:06:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] 9% of men of reproductive age have fertility problems. 11% of women and married women, about 19% of married women age 15 to 19 with no prior birth are unable to get pregnant after one year of trying. So, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's gotta be a cost of the church saying, babies, babies, babies, babies, babies.

Dana [01:06:47] Yeah, a huge cost. A huge cost.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] 1 out of 10.

Dana [01:06:49] There's so many people who are struggling with it. And the, like, fucked up part is I've known so many people who get married super, super young or 18, 19, 20, and by the time they're 21, 22, they haven't gotten pregnant yet. And they are, you know, like, they're barely, like, they're, they're not even in their mid-20s, and they're already in this crisis of infertility, which I feel for them, for sure. But that's just sad that you like to just to have that burden on yourself at such a young age has got to be so difficult. So I can't even imagine that.

Jess [01:07:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Identity, Loss, and Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:07:26] What you bring up, I think is so important, this idea of how, you know, I imagine we all, as humans, but like, with the panel, like, how much we, we live with loss, how much there is to be grieved, even if we're deconstructing something that we wouldn't choose. It's weird, right? Like, it might not be something you choose, but still, there are things still to be grieved in that.

Dana [01:07:56] Yeah, definitely. Well, and I mean, obviously, like, Mormonism doesn't have a monopoly on, you know, marriage and family and all of that. So, like, I think that's still just a natural thing to want. And I think, you know, no matter how I was raised or whatever, like, that would have been, like, I really feel that natural pull. But, you know, having that added pressure. It's an extreme. It's an extreme pressure.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:25] Yeah. And as aside, we will be doing a Mormon story in the near future with someone who has a story around infertility. So, yeah, anyway.

Meg [01:08:37] Well, I also think it's hard because a lot of the church culture, it's almost acceptable to ask like, why haven't you had kids yet? When there isn't like any basis to get into your personal life.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:47] Right.

Meg [01:08:48] And I have close friends and family and they get mad. They're like, you have no idea what I'm going through, what's been done. And the audacity really, to ask like, oh, why haven't you had kids yet? You've been married X number of years. And it's like, that is actually not your prerogative at all to know this.

Julie [01:09:03] That boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:04] Yes, that boundary thing within Mormonism. That's right. Where it's like, yeah, we don't have this level of relationship actually, brother, so.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] And so, yeah, weirdly, we know what's going on with the church. You know, I mean, churches want to grow and you grow primarily by having babies. In fact, it's the higher than average birth rate in the United States that's actually keeping the Mormon Church from being in decline in 2024 because the average Mormon couple has three babies instead of two or one.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] All the people leaving the Mormon Church are for now kind of being offset by all the babies that are being born. But as soon as the birth rate continues to drop, which it is, and as more and more people leave the church, the church will begin to be in decline. So for that reason alone, the Mormon Church has a vested interest in lots of babies being born or their church starts to shrink. And who wants to be a member of a loser church that's dying? So that's number one. But also the church has done studies to find out what keeps people in the church. Because you want tithe payers, you want butts in seats, you want people doing all the callings.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] And they found that the number one correlates to faithful, active, lifelong membership is going on a mission, getting married super young and having babies almost immediately. And that's why they've invested in BYU Provo, BYU Rexburg, you know, BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii, et cetera, because they need these marriage factories so that you're getting married, finding your mates and having babies. All those Mormons who were raised in Illinois, go to high school in Illinois or California.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] If they don't go to BYU and they stay at their local junior college or community college, they're out of the church within a very short amount of time. So it's sort of an existential issue that the church push young marriage, young babies, young baby making, and all of this or the church literally starts to go away. So I just have to know that's kind of why that pressure you're all feeling is there. I'm sure you all know this, but, you know, for those who don't. Anyway, I'm so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] That there's such a dark cost to the church. Feeling a need to. To grow and to be perceived as a successful, growing church.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:34] Well.

Dana [01:11:34] And I just say, you know, like, those are all the. The practical, Right. Like, kind of like business side of things kind of reasons. But also, you know, they have very compound, compelling spiritual and doctrinal and kind of this bigger picture.

Julie [01:11:50] Right.

Dana [01:11:50] And that's what. That's what we hear. Like, that's the messaging.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:54] That's the conditioning.

Dana [01:11:55] That's the conditioning. That's the messaging. You know, the whole gospel is centered around families and around eternal families. And so that. That really plays into it. And I think, you know, like, there's maybe those ulterior motives or, you know, kind of the, you know, the back room where the sausage gets made, but it's really presented as such.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:18] That's how you experience.

Meg [01:12:19] Yeah, yeah.

Dana [01:12:20] I mean, such a spiritual, you know, like, that is. I mean, I like speaking about the temple.

Julie [01:12:27] Right.

Dana [01:12:28] I went through the temple as a single woman, and I attended the temple a lot as a single woman. Part of that was, you know, I. After I went on my mission, you know, you get endowed and you're able to keep going back and doing that ceremony for people who have passed on by proxy, and you're encouraged to go as often as you can. And being a student at byu, it's almost kind of like a status kind of thing that, hey, like, I'm endowed. I can go to the temple. Right. Because not everybody can.

Dana [01:13:01] And so I would go, but it was so painful because in the temple ceremony, and I think this part may have changed, but basically without saying too much or being too disrespectful, but in this ceremony, you would. All women would basically promise to. Not to covenant with heavenly Father, but to covenant with or to promise to obey their husband as their. As the husband obeys in covenants with God. So it's like there's this sort of, you know, a mediator between. So, you know, that's already hard if you're married, to say, like, okay, well, you're not covenanting with God, you're covenanting with your husband. Who's going to then covenant with God?

Dana [01:13:49] Well, what about when you're not married and you're not getting married? What does that mean? Like, what, I'm covenanting to follow somebody who doesn't exist to then, like, why can't I just make that covenant myself?

John Dehlin [01:14:03] With God?

Dana [01:14:03] Yeah, directly.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] Well, thank you, Dana, for sharing such a moving and heartbreaking kind of side effect to the church's emphasis, because the church could emphasize there are lots of paths. Some, you know, like we listen to Frieda, Be you and me growing up, this musical that was put on by progressive liberals in the 70s. Some mommies are doctors. Some mommies are dentists. Some mommies are lawyers. Some mommies don't have, you know, some women don't have babies at all. And, like, the church could have a message like that. And that would make life a lot less painful. Right. For a lot of. For a lot of people. 10% of their membership. Right. So we're just noting that collateral damage. All right, Julie, how does the church's family proclamation, its expectations for what will make you happiest work for you?

Julie [01:14:58] For sure.

Jess [01:14:59] Yeah.

Julie [01:14:59] As a convert, I do feel. I don't know if. Because, like, I did voluntarily take the discussions, but I do feel that the church definitely does target people from broken families and sells them this family, you know, the nuclear family ideal. And I, you know, all of my church friends, like, no one had divorced parents. Like, everyone had the big Mormon happy family. They would host game nights. They would, you know, open door policy, like, oh, yeah, come over for dinner, you know, and it was just the best.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] And the thing is, the Mormons do get divorced. My parents were divorced.

Julie [01:15:33] Oh, for sure. I'm just saying that, like, growing up, I was the one from a broken family who was the convert, and everyone else had, you know, just the best.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] That's how it. That's how it was perceived by you.

Julie [01:15:43] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Yeah.

Jess [01:15:44] Yeah.

Julie [01:15:44] And I mean, obviously, you know, people got divorced and stopped going to church, and I just didn't notice.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:48] But that's right.

Julie [01:15:49] You know, all of my. My core high school friend group, all of their, you know, we would, you know, have gatherings at their house and do game nights and dinners and all the things. And it was. That was the ideal that was sold to me.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] Sure.

Julie [01:16:03] And that was like, I honestly, I don't. Like, they did. There was pressure to get married and, like, you'll have the best joy. You know, this is, you know, I was taught that, like, sex wasn't. That it was beautiful and it was so sacred. And that's why you want to get married, is because you can share that with your future spouse and that you can Experience that and bring children and like it. I was never taught that sex was bad, thankfully. I was taught that it was so beautiful and so sacred that you should save it and preserve it. Like in young women's. We did, you know, the temple was very much, you know, you kind of got beaten over the head with it in a nice way, I guess you could say.

Julie [01:16:44] But, I mean, I did the. I've heard that this isn't. This is quite common that young women, the young women leaders will bring their wedding dresses, and for a young women's activity, you will put on wedding dresses and go to the temple and take photos in modest wedding dresses as, like 13 year olds. And I also. There was an activity where they put together hangers with, like white silk on it and had us sign a contract promising that we would be virtuous and save ourselves so we could eventually hang our temple dress on this hanger. Wow. And I had that hanger until I left the church and I threw it out with everything else.

Julie [01:17:24] But it was just like, as somebody who's very duty bound, I signed that paper and I really believed in it, and that's why I followed it for so long. And in singles ward that wasn't a student ward that wasn't in Utah, it was still very much like it was the return missionaries and it was the people who were off track from school or home for, you know, the summer, and it was people who weren't married. And it was very much like, especially in Relief Society, I remember a lot of women, you know, because we're always talking about marriage and Relief Society and how upset they were about how they hadn't found somebody yet.

Julie [01:17:59] And it was just. It was constant. It really was. And it was very much, you know, especially around 2015 when gay marriage was legalized. And it was like, well, this is happening. But the purest joy still comes from marriage between a man and a woman. And that's what your aim should be. And you can have a career, you can have this, but this should be your focus.

Julie [01:18:24] And, you know, the bishopric members were so kind, thankfully, but it was very. They were constantly being like, why aren't you guys need to, you know, date more, date more, date more, get married. Marriage is the best. Marriage is the best. And it got so repetitive, and it was so frustrating to hear that from the pulpit all the time because it's like, do you not think we're trying as hard as we possibly can?

Julie [01:18:48] And I composed this Facebook post after I was really tired of hearing that, and I posted it On Facebook, I called it Dear Married People. And actually, can I read it?

John Dehlin [01:19:02] Sure.

Julie [01:19:03] It's not that long, I don't think, but it was. It got a really. It got quite a response from my ward, and some of the bishopric members reached out to me and they're like, thank you so much for posting that. Because I did not realize how not damage, but, like, how it wasn't helpful at all. And I was like, dear Married People, we understand that you mean well. We understand that marriage and kids are great. We understand that it's worth it to keep sex sacred and that it's worth it to get married. We get it. We really. We really do. But you all that ask us about our dating lives, those who encourage us to date more, to get out there and find someone, all of you, who tell us we're not looking broad enough. Who tell us we're not looking what?

Meg [01:19:51] Enough broad.

Julie [01:19:52] Broad enough that we're being like, you're too narrow. Yeah, we're being too picky.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] Got it.

Julie [01:19:55] That we're being too picky.

John Dehlin [01:19:56] Sorry, Just want to make sure.

Julie [01:19:57] Who tell us that we should date, date, date. Who ask us and then wonder why we get defensive. Stop. Please stop. Please stop and think for just a second. Stop and remember. Or try to imagine what it was like to be single. Try to understand, to remember how difficult it was to continue to date unsuccessfully, to try again and again, the same inane first conversations over and over, the awkwardness.

Julie [01:20:28] And it's like, never talk to somebody again after trying really hard. The same bs. And the few times you do actually like somebody, they won't like you back. And just try to imagine that over and over for years. For years.

Julie [01:20:43] It's lonely. It's exhausting. It's defeating. It is so draining mentally and emotionally. We talk to people, guys. We talk to so many people. We do it. We date people we wouldn't normally consider. We date people we may have been intimidated by, intimidated by a few years ago. We try. We fail over and over. And you were able to succeed, and you're happy, and we're happy for you. But please understand how much it sucks to see those Facebook posts, to hear your stories, even the bad ones, because at least you have a best friend and lover to comfort you. And how much it sucks that it seems like the only value we have is whether we're romantically with somebody and how we're told to not settle, but also told that if we're not married by 25 that we're too picky.

Being Single in Mormon Young Single Adult Culture

Julie [01:21:33] Heaven forbid I should actually be attracted to a potential mate. And if we say no, you feel like you have to console us or encourage us. We don't need it, we don't want it. We know, we've heard it. Just stop. It's hard enough as it is.

Julie [01:21:51] And snaps. Seriously. And I got a. One of my favorite bishopric members who has since passed, actually, he was, he reached out to me and he was just at the next sacrament meeting and he was just like, thank you.

Julie [01:22:09] I didn't, like, I honestly did not understand until I read that and I really feel like I understand it now. And it was, it was really validating to be. To hear him say that it had an effect on him.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] Beautiful. Well, this is great. So let's, so let's shift a little bit. And you know, we've already kind of described. So there's the BYU single adult wars, which is kind of like the golden ticket first class Mormon experience. But there's also this urgency to get married while you're at byu where you go out into the deep, dark world and your chances of marrying a Mormon just plummet. Right. So then you do, and you're, you're the second class or the third class of Mormonism. Are these YSA young single adult wards either throughout along the Wasatch front, Utah, or in Idaho or Arizona or heaven forbid, like somewhere east coast, right? Or yeah, I hear there are a couple places in California with some pretty good YSA wards, like, you know, Huntington Beach. Huntington beach, yeah, yeah.

Julie [01:23:17] Orange county area.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] Yeah. But, but anyway, we've described the kind of the third class coach YSA experiences like the island of Misfit toys as a marriage factory, as a meat market. Who succeeds? Are there any people who succeed? And if so, what's the type of man who succeeds in those words? And then what are the type of women who succeed? And we can say success, I'm bracketing in parentheses because obviously who even knows what that means? But maybe you guys know what I'm asking.

Julie [01:23:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] Jess, did you want to be wanting to say.

Jess [01:24:00] So are you saying in that like third, like past university?

John Dehlin [01:24:04] I mean, this works at BYU too, so. Yeah. Who wins?

Jess [01:24:08] Okay, so I have a friend, she's conventionally attractive. She's blonde, which is very important.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] What does conventionally attractive mean in Mormonism?

Jess [01:24:18] Oh, I don't know. Long hair, Norwegian? I don't know.

Julie [01:24:23] Long hair, petite, slim?

Jess [01:24:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie [01:24:27] She's more cute than hot, I would say.

Jess [01:24:30] Yeah, yeah. Like my friend, she's slim, she's very cute. She's very Bubbly.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:34] Yeah.

Jess [01:24:36] She's very committed to the church. She works at the mtc. She.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] That's the missionary Training center.

Jess [01:24:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] Where missionaries are trained to go on mission.

Jess [01:24:46] She also is athletic and rich.

Dana [01:24:52] Yeah.

Jess [01:24:53] I mean, by my standards, you know, compared to me, she's. Her family is quite wealthy and she can line up three or four dates a day if she wanted to. You know, it's.

John Dehlin [01:25:06] You're not exaggerating.

Jess [01:25:07] No. I had a class with her and, you know, I was trying to kind of plan something. She's like, oh, well, I have lunch and they have dinner, and then I'm meeting up with someone between classes. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So there's definitely a type, especially within, like, Provo and at byu. In Provo, I do not do well for myself. You know, I'm not getting the matches, but as soon as I, like, accept this band to, like, I don't know, when I'm in Arizona, I do all right. If I go to, like, non Mormon dating, I do all right. You know, I feel like I do pretty average, but like, in Provo.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] Yeah.

Meg [01:25:59] Please, Meg, if I could describe, like, the perfect mutual profile for someone in Provo. You've got like this surfing picture on the back, like, the back of the boat. You're in Lake Powell, You've got one with your friends. Super bubbly. You may have one with, like, someone's face with, like an emoji over it to show you've been in a relationship.

Meg [01:26:15] You're like, either hiking, you're doing some sort of sport, and then there's another one that you just look really cute in, and that is going to get you, like, views on views. I don't surf on the back of the boats. I wakeboard. And so that was obviously a ding to me on my profile.

Meg [01:26:30] But that's just like the perfect profile, the perfect, like, image that you can put out. And I also know someone that very similar, kind of conventionally, Utah and like, dates lined up left and right. And then I also found the same is going outside of the Mormon bubble. Has been awesome because, you know, viewed more for your personality than you are for, like, your looks and for your ability to kind of be a carbon copy of everyone else and all have the same profile pictures.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:59] Yeah.

Jess [01:26:59] And I do want to say, my friend, she's amazing. Like, I love her and she's the greatest friend, but it is, you know, whenever she tells me her dating woes, I'm like, all right. Yeah, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] Tiny violin.

Jess [01:27:14] Yeah, a tiny yeah, it's like, see Bitsy violin and she's great. She deserves. She deserves to find someone. But yeah, it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:23] That's interesting.

Jess [01:27:24] It is interesting. Or. Or if you have a picture, like at the temple.

Meg [01:27:28] The temple. Or if you have a dog.

Jess [01:27:30] Oh, with a dog.

Meg [01:27:31] Yeah.

Jess [01:27:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] Okay. But just for the record, Jess and Meg, neither of you feel like y' all fit the, you know, the, the Mormon woman type for what boys are looking for or do you.

Meg [01:27:43] Let me tell you, like, mutual. Never was able to like, work the game.

John Dehlin [01:27:48] So on Mormon Tinder.

Meg [01:27:49] Mormon Tinder was not going hinge. And I specifically actually said it to non members. That was great.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Okay, so Mormon boys you found. Mormon boys aren't super interested in you.

Meg [01:28:00] No, I also like put on my profile that I like, worked in finance and that was a very big turnoff because the woman is not supposed to be in like the high finance, like, doing the thing. It was very competitive. So.

John Dehlin [01:28:11] Okay, got it. And Jess, you can answer that real quick and then I'll go to the others.

Jess [01:28:14] Sorry, what was it again?

John Dehlin [01:28:15] Did you don't feel like Mormon boys are, you know, mutual or.

Jess [01:28:19] I mean, there's, there's a little bit. Okay, so when you're talking about like the archetype of like the Mormon boys who succeed in ysa.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:30] Yeah.

Jess [01:28:30] Those guys aren't interested in me. Like, there's, you know, okay, there's.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] There's guys that you would, like, don't like you as much.

Jess [01:28:37] The thing is, like, I don't necessarily like those guys either. It's an interesting. Okay.

Julie [01:28:43] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:43] Yeah.

Jess [01:28:43] You're learning about your own attraction.

Dana [01:28:45] But you're supposed to like those guys, right? You're supposed to like. Those are the guys that you are supposed to like.

Jess [01:28:51] Yes.

Dana [01:28:52] Even if you don't.

Jess [01:28:53] Those are the guys who will make enough money so that you can be a stay at home mom. Those are the ones who will give you the towhead children. Those like.

Julie [01:29:01] You know,

John Dehlin [01:29:03] I didn't know the term towhead until I moved to Utah as an adult in Texas. I never heard that term towhead. It's blonde people. Blonde people?

Jess [01:29:12] Really?

Meg [01:29:12] Blonde?

Jess [01:29:12] Yeah.

Julie [01:29:13] In my experience, those who like, graduate YSA is what it's called. Oh, my gosh. It was always so frustrating when like somebody would, you know, during fast and testimony meeting, they'd like go up on the podium just to brag about the fact that they got engaged.

Jess [01:29:28] Like, that was. Yeah, I'm graduating ysa.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] Anything else you guys want to say about what Mormon women succeed in ysa or did we pretty much cover it?

Julie [01:29:39] I mean, I think that YSA is really interesting because there's like, the gorgeous 10 out of 10 people, both guys and girls, that are like, they age out for whatever reason, like, they never get married. And then you have, for lack of a better term, the weirdos who, like, somehow get married at, like, 21. And you're just like, how?

John Dehlin [01:30:00] So there's anomalies. You're saying, yeah.

Julie [01:30:02] And it's like, if they got married

Dana [01:30:03] and I'm not getting married, like, what's going on? What does this mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:30:07] Yeah.

Dana [01:30:08] Okay, so I talked. I totally agree with that. However, I will say that, like, those, you know, the ones that you're kind of like, oh, you're kind of, you know, weird. And how did you get married so young? I'm also like, would I ever want to marry the person that you married? No, never. Like, don't sign me up for that. Yeah, don't sign me up for that. But as far as, like, conventionally. Conventionally attractive Mormon. Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

Julie [01:30:33] Right.

Dana [01:30:33] Right there. Hair extensions, eyelash extensions. Skinny blonde, for sure. Yeah. And I'll say I'm half Puerto Rican and I have dark hair. I used to be a lot skinnier than I am now, but I was never. I have curves. I've always had hips and all of that, which outside of Mormonism, very desirable. I found out in recent years.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] In recent years, I found.

Dana [01:31:04] Have learned, like, hey, like, you know, hot commodity. But in Mormonism, like, I, you know, too much melanin, too, you know, too olive skin, too dark of hair, too outspoken, too opinionated, too, you know, ambitious. Like, you guys were saying all of those things, so. But it's the hot and it's the spiritual, and you put them together, right? It's hot and spiritual. And what a dichotomy and what a mind fuck of trying to figure out that balance and how to be that person.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] Yeah.

Julie [01:31:38] The amount of guys I went on dates with who told me I was too intimidating.

Meg [01:31:43] Oh, yeah.

Julie [01:31:43] Because I am assertive and I'm direct.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:47] Yeah.

Julie [01:31:47] And it was like, oh, you're not the sweet, you know, subservient. Right. Like, defers to the man kind of.

Meg [01:31:54] You have an opinion, which is just

Julie [01:31:55] like, that's not okay. You make dirty jokes. Oh, I don't think this is gonna work. You know? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:03] Okay. All right. All right. And so the boys, the. The young men that usually succeed in the YSA wards, is there a type?

What Mormon Men Look for in Dating

Julie [01:32:10] Oh, yeah. Return missionary.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] Okay.

Julie [01:32:13] If you're not a Returned missionary as a young man. It's like bottom of the barrel.

John Dehlin [01:32:17] Okay.

Julie [01:32:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:18] Wow.

Julie [01:32:18] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Okay.

Meg [01:32:19] If I could describe their mutual profile, it's very similar. You also are surfing. You have the lake pal surfing photo. You usually have a fish or some type of.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] Of like, like a fish you caught.

Dana [01:32:30] Like you've caught some type of dead animal.

Meg [01:32:31] You've caught any dead animal.

Dana [01:32:33] Maybe it's a deer. It could be.

Meg [01:32:35] There's things that this could be. And it's so like, what about a buck?

Dana [01:32:39] Yeah, Yeah. I don't know the difference. John.

Julie [01:32:42] Yeah, Bambi, I have a theory about this.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] Wait, wait. Okay, go ahead.

Julie [01:32:46] That just the fishing and hunting pictures, they're just one of the few pictures they have that somebody else has taken of them.

Meg [01:32:51] Yes. Probably one with a group because that you do have to show. You have friends, you know, maybe one with your mom. I saw a lot of those which are, you know, those are more cute. And then you have some sort of like, tagline in there of like just looking for someone to be in pickleball. And it's like, awesome. Or like looking for, you know, my eternal companion. And then on mutual, you can rate how like, spiritual you are, which I think is fascinating. And so the guys are always like super spiritual temple every week. And I'm like, I know for a fact you're not doing that. But that is the perfect mutual profile.

Jess [01:33:20] Oh, also mission picture.

Meg [01:33:22] Oh, yes.

Jess [01:33:23] You cannot forget. I mean, that kind of goes along with the rm. Thing is that's. That's a big thing. Especially if you served in like a picturesque European or American town or like a third world country. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:37] Okay.

Meg [01:33:37] And you put you sometimes if you speak another language, you can put your profile all in that language. Even though if you're like, you know, the conventional heterosexual white Mormon boy, you have it in Spanish.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:49] Yeah.

Dana [01:33:49] If you went to a foreign speaking mission, like you were up here. Yeah.

Julie [01:33:54] Okay.

Meg [01:33:55] Eastern Europe, European. Like I've heard those are top tier destinations that you're being sent to.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:01] Interesting.

Meg [01:34:02] But yes, that's the profile.

Jess [01:34:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:04] In all seriousness, we. There was a woman who really wanted to come on the panel and she backed out last minute for really good reasons. Because it's scary to come on Mormon stories, I think, as you all might know. But she talked about, let's just say she lived back east in a very urban metropolis and there was this dynamic where kind of those Wall Street Mormon boys could date women after women. You know, there was a very shortage of like sharp or seemingly sharp and faithful Mormon Boys and they were like roosters in the hen House. Dating 10, you know, there were 10 sharp Mormon urban women who were urban professionals to every one sharp Mormon man. And there was this huge imbalance. And I wonder if Utah has a similar imbalance where there's way more sharp women than there are sharp, faithful, committed men.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:01] For those of you who have had experiences outside Utah with YSA or.

Meg [01:35:05] Yeah, I definitely saw that in the Philadelphia ward. I feel like it was pretty evenly split. A lot of the women were getting education, they had jobs, so highly educated. I would go down and visit some people in Washington D.C. that was the exact dynamic I saw of like women were, they were lawyers, they were doctors, they served in the military, just very accomplished. And there'd be like one or two guys and you kind of have your pick. And so you actually don't pick anyone because it's the paradox of choice. And yeah, same thing. I'd visit friends in New York. Very similar situation in Utah.

Meg [01:35:35] I haven't seen that dynamic as frequently just because there does seem to be more men and women, but I know statistics for just the United States, women are more educated than men. And I think that that kind of creates a weird power struggle because there's a lot of women who, if you do graduate undergrad without a degree, it's kind of like, or with a degree, sorry, not getting married. And then you keep going on. You're like, well, time to go get a grad degree or time to go do something else. Because I didn't do like supposed to be done. I have a few friends that even mentioned that of like, I'm just going to keep going to school until I find someone. And I'm like, that maybe shouldn't be why you go to grad school because it's really hard. But to each their own.

Dana [01:36:12] Hey, dating's harder than grad school. Can I just say, I have two, I have two master's degrees and that was way easier than dating in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] Mormon dating.

Dana [01:36:20] Well, I mean really any date, like, dating sucks. Yeah, yeah. Especially dating as an adult, which can I just add, I don't want to like throw us off too much, but it pisses me off when Mormon or anybody who got married really, really young. Right. 18, 19, 20, they talk about their dating experiences.

John Dehlin [01:36:38] Let's get into it.

Dana [01:36:40] They talk about their dating experiences.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:42] John?

Meg [01:36:42] Yeah, I made my first.

Dana [01:36:45] What dating experience does a 19 year old bride or groom have? They have teenage dating experience. They've never dated as an adult. They've never had like They've. They usually. It's their first, maybe second boyfriend. Right. Like, they don't know what it is like to date.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:03] Yes. That's a great segue.

Dana [01:37:05] They have no real dating experience. And it's, it's just, it's. It's just kind of funny at this point. Like, it's. It makes me laugh. I'm like, ha, ha, you know, like, you, you know nothing. And it's not, you know, like I'm, you know, nothing.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Yeah, most. Most Mormons that get married at BYU date for like 10 minutes. They get engaged and then they're married.

Dana [01:37:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] Yeah.

Dana [01:37:23] And like, they're talking about, like, oh, this one guy I dated and blah, blah. I'm like, okay. Until, like, you know, you. Yeah, you. You don't know what dating is actually like.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] Let's jump into it. So what's it like to date Mormon men? Like, let's just. This is the tea spilling part. Like, is it great? Is it not great? What are the. What are the best things about it? What are the hardest things about it? You know, where should we begin?

Physical Appearance and Shallow Dating Dynamics

Julie [01:37:50] It is shallow as fuck, John.

John Dehlin [01:37:52] Okay.

Julie [01:37:54] Because, like, I, you know, I actually, you know, post Mormon, I'm very active on Tinder and I really enjoy the Tinder scene. And I can say with full confidence that Mormon dating is more shallow than Tinder dating.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] So. Shallow how? And anyone can jump in. Shallow how?

Meg [01:38:10] It's like, looks like. I mean, obviously when you're on the apps, it's always about looks, but when everyone looks the same, you're kind of just like, playing the game. Like, I know some of my friends that they were like, yeah, I just swipe up on everyone and then whoever messages me back, I'll just like, pick from there. And maybe that's just common across the board. I'm not exactly sure, but it's kind of like I can pick who I want, be what it may. And then when you go on a date, it's like, I think my best date ever was when it was 20 minutes in total. So we got to know each other well, picked up, went through the swig drive through. And then I was brought back to my house and it was like, this was such a fun time. And I'm like, we didn't even. Like, we didn't get past anything.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] Okay, so swig. Tell everyone.

Meg [01:38:51] Oh, swig. Swig is awesome. Swig is the equivalent.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:55] Just.

Meg [01:38:55] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:38:58] describe for those who are listening, describe what you're holding there, Dana. For those who are listening.

Dana [01:39:03] Okay, so, you know, if you, if you did watch Secret, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. You'll, you know, you know that they are big Swig fans.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Swig is.

Dana [01:39:12] But swig is soda. 44 ounces. Don't worry. This was extra ice, so I'm not drinking like 44 ounces of straight soda. But it's flavored soda. It's basically Mormon Starbucks. They're all over the place. And, you know, it's where mommies can do their drive through, get their Diet Coke, get their sugar on and, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:35] And there are other brands too, besides Swig, right?

Dana [01:39:37] Yeah. Well, Swig is the original John.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] Okay, thank you.

Dana [01:39:40] It was started in 2012 in St. George, Utah.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:43] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] Thank you, Dana. Thank you.

Dana [01:39:45] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:45] What are the other names?

Meg [01:39:47] I think there's, like, Fizz. So delicious.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Okay.

Dana [01:39:50] Quench it.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:51] Yeah. Swirl.

Meg [01:39:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:53] And this date was so fast. Why? Just put a fine point on it, Meg.

Meg [01:39:57] So I will say the previous. This was the second date. The previous date was a Nickmo.

John Dehlin [01:40:00] So wait, what is that?

Meg [01:40:02] That's a non committal makeout.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Okay. What is that?

Meg [01:40:05] Basically, you meet up and you just make out and you, like, usually watch a movie, and then you're not actually watching the movie because you're making out. And then it was like, this is such a great time. We should do it again. And I was like, okay. And then we went to Swig and I was like, yeah, we're done. So he went into. I call it the graveyard. In my phone. I, I put the names, like, whatever their name was, I make it the graveyard emoji instead. And they're in the graveyard. Yeah. So if they messaged me later, I'm like, I don't know who you are here in the graveyard.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:32] Yeah.

Meg [01:40:33] Yes.

Julie [01:40:34] Nick Mo is essentially a Mormon one night stand.

Dana [01:40:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:37] Okay.

Julie [01:40:37] Or like Mormon Netflix and Chill.

John Dehlin [01:40:39] Okay.

Dana [01:40:40] Without the sex.

Julie [01:40:41] Yeah. Well, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] Okay.

Julie [01:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:44] So, yeah. So Mormons do make out.

Julie [01:40:46] Oh, yeah.

Jess [01:40:49] They do more than make out. Okay, okay.

Julie [01:40:53] So I,

Meg [01:40:55] I.

Jess [01:40:56] People have probably heard of soaking. I think that's a myth.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] But to tell our viewers and listeners what.

Jess [01:41:02] Right, so. So that's basically where you all the way into, like, penetrative sex. But you don't move back and forth. You just sit there. And it's supposed to not be technically sex.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] Okay, so let's back up. Why would Mormons, BYU students engage in soaking?

Jess [01:41:21] Because they can have sex. Okay, well, they have agency. They can if they want to, but they're not supposed to.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] Well, they get kicked out of school.

Julie [01:41:29] Yeah.

Jess [01:41:30] It's in the Honor code that you get kicked out. And then also, it's a grave sin.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] Sin next to murder.

Julie [01:41:35] Right.

John Dehlin [01:41:35] So Mormon kids, you know, teens and 20 somethings, 30 somethings, they're all stuck with this high libido, a very sexualized culture, and they're forbidden from sex.

Jess [01:41:46] Yeah. So I've had a couple in my days. The Nick Mosque. I remember I had one where normally they're at least, like, nice about it, you know, but. But this guy, it was just kind of like, all right, get in here. All right, we're gonna pick a movie. And then just immediately he was like, on top of me, and essentially he was, like, grinding on me and he was. He like missed. He was like on my hip bone.

John Dehlin [01:42:25] Missed?

Meg [01:42:27] Yeah.

Jess [01:42:28] Like, he was right.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:29] Well, that's not technically the right area.

Jess [01:42:32] Maybe that was his goal. I don't know. But this is good. Yeah. And so he basically. It's awful. He, like, used me to get off, and then afterwards he was like, oh, I'm sorry, my stamina isn't great. And I was like, what?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:51] Yeah, I wanted more of that.

Jess [01:42:53] I wanted that to go on and on and on. I'm fine that it's over. I should not have come over here, you know, And I have.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] So the day was, let's get. Let's get her to watch Netflix with me so I can get off.

Jess [01:43:07] Yeah. So essentially masturbate.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:09] Yeah. Basically get his needs met.

Dana [01:43:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:12] With. With you. As. As kind of a prop.

Meg [01:43:15] Yeah.

Consent, Boundaries, and Sexual Experiences

Margi Dehlin [01:43:15] Can I ask you, what was consent like on that?

Jess [01:43:20] That's an interesting question because, you know, I went over there.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:24] Yeah.

Jess [01:43:24] You know, I. It's always a little bit different. You know, sometimes it's just making out. Sometimes. I mean, I've never had a guy use me to finish before in that. You know, that's in a very strange way. But, yeah, usually it's pretty innocent. Just making out, maybe like some touching. Right. But, you know, upper. Upper body.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:55] But that's forbidden too, right?

Jess [01:43:56] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:43:57] That's forbidden too, in Mormonism. Right.

Jess [01:43:59] Well, that's. There's these pictures going around of, like. I don't know if it's Sunday lessons at BYU or if it's like a class, but they'll. They'll say like, oh, this is like the talk to the bishop zone. And I'll have, like, hand to upper body or like French kissing or, you know, stuff like that. It's. It's very, very funny and informative. But yeah, going back to consent, it's very interesting because me especially, I'VE been learning a lot about myself and I'm learning that I think I'm kind of demisexual in that I need like an emotional connection before I can, you know, be sexually attracted to somebody.

Jess [01:44:43] Yeah, but you still have a sex drive. And so sometimes it's like misguided. I'm like, well, you know, I gotta do something with this. But then once I'm with someone, I'm like, I've never met you before. I'm totally turned off. I don't. But then you have this expectation of like, well, I got this far. I don't want to be like this wench that's like, no, like, get out. You know, I don't know where that comes from. But interesting.

Julie [01:45:10] So, so pleasing maybe. Yeah.

Dana [01:45:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] So here's the trick. Like, you, you're trying to get chosen by these Mormon male priesthood holders. You got to be pretty, you got to be thin, you got to. You got to be bubbly. And I'm sure they want to know that they're attracted to you and you're attracted to them. So you're simultaneously and you're taught as Mormon teens that you're the gatekeepers, you're the guardians to both their chastity and yours. So on the one hand, you're the gatekeepers to keep everyone pure, yourself and them. And on the other hand, you're trying to get chosen. They're wanting to check you out and test you out. Take a test run. They can't take it too far, but they want to take it as far as they could take it without getting into trouble. And that's where soaking or this weird Nick Mo hump fest thing that happened

Margi Dehlin [01:46:02] to your right hip.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] Like it's this weird. He's trying to, you know, get his needs met in this weird way without breaking the rules. And then you're an object that he's. And I'm just curious, like this, this Mormon kid who's in the nicmo relieving himself, does he think he's not sinning because he's humping your leg or like, because also Mormons can't masturbate. So, like, I'm explain to our audience what's going on there. The attempts to kind of navigate all these complexities and what's going on for you, trying to, to balance that and all of you really. You know what I mean?

Jess [01:46:44] Yeah. I don't know. I haven't super dissected that interaction that much, but one that I have dissected. I kind of alluded to this earlier. There was a time I was. Oh, gosh, I don't remember if I was 18 or 19, but I was really, really young. It was my first year in college, and of course, I'm like, okay, I want to get married. I want to find somebody. And I was having a really hard time, like, matching people, matching with people who I also was interested in and thought were attractive.

Jess [01:47:17] And I finally. I matched with this guy who I was like, oh, this guy is super cute. He seems really awesome. I was really excited, and he came over to my apartment, and I was at Utah State first. So this isn't byu. There's no honor code, you know, But I'm. I'm still like, you know, I'm trying to. To be righteous and keep all the commandments. But this guy, he comes over and we start kissing, and then he asks to take it to my bedroom. And so we went there, and it went a lot farther than I was comfortable. Like, I had never.

Jess [01:48:00] The closest I've. I'd had was, like, I wasn't even experienced making out fully. I was like, whatever. But this guy, he starts, like, taking off his clothes. And I was like, whoa, what's going on here? And I. I feel like there's this. You know, we talk about consent, and when you're being educated correctly, you learn about enthusiastic consent and how it needs to be quite clear that the other person is also into it. I'm positive I was, like, not quite clear into it, but he encouraged me to touch his genitals. And at some point, I was like, you know what?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:52] I.

Jess [01:48:54] This isn't. I'm sorry. You need to leave. So it didn't get to a point where I felt like I had, you know, super sinned, but I still felt really bad because I'd never done anything like that before. And so I went to my bishop, and I told him what had happened, and I hadn't really.

Jess [01:49:14] Now I see it as, like, I wasn't giving enthusiastic consent. I wasn't feeling comfortable. I did it because I felt like I needed to, because I'm trying to find a husband. This guy's very attractive. I don't want him to think that I'm a prude and then never talk to me again.

Jess [01:49:28] And so I was like, well, I. At the time, I was like, well, this is. This is my problem. I need to figure this out. But so I explained the story to my bishop, and he goes, hmm, that's strange.

Jess [01:49:51] And I was like, yeah. And he goes, well, I. I don't know. I guess. And I had been working on my mission papers or wanting to go on a mission. He goes, well, I guess don't take the sacrament for a couple weeks and will have to postpone your papers for a couple months.

Jess [01:50:19] I don't remember if it was like four months or six months, but it was, it really, it threw a wrench in my plans. And now looking back on it and being like, I didn't need to confess to anything, but, you know, my whole life was moved back almost half a year.

John Dehlin [01:50:35] You're being punished because this Mormon kid wasn't taught proper consent.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:39] Consent.

Jess [01:50:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] And you were kind of blamed for it and punished by the bishop.

Jess [01:50:43] Well, even I even, you know, blamed myself a little bit. I was like, well, I let him into my room. I, you know, all this. And anyways, so there's just like a lot at play.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:57] Yeah.

Jess [01:50:57] In these situations.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:59] That's right.

Dana [01:51:00] Can I just say, like, I'm so sorry that that happened to you and like, but like, worse. Yeah, like, for sure. Right. Like, but it's, it's an emotional thing to like, hear about your experience. And I know we've all had experiences like that. And I just want, like, people who are watching this who maybe are not, you know, into like, they haven't been in this scene before, maybe they've never been in a Ysa ward, They've never interacted with Mormon young men.

Dana [01:51:26] This is unfortunately so much more common than it should be. This is not, you know, like, and it's your story and I'm like honoring that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not trying to minimize that at all.

Dana [01:51:39] But that is very, I mean, any, any Mormon young man, man that you see, right, that has the priesthood and is wearing the white shirt and tie, you know, there's a good chance that this is something that they do and probably do somewhat regularly. And I know that from personal experience. I know that from other people's experience.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] And you're saying what, Just so people know, what, what is it that most Mormon young men do?

Dana [01:52:06] I mean, they engage in sexual behavior, whether that is consensual or, you know, non consensual or somewhere in a gray area which, you know, the gray area is not consent, but especially in Mormonism, that can become very, very blurry and nebulous because there is, you know, there's the line of, you know, sex in marriage is beautiful and sacred, but before that, it's just like a total no go. Even though, you know, we know that young people, everybody, right, we're sexual beings and that's totally natural and normal. But young women especially, I think we just don't really talk about sex the way that young men do. So, you know. Cause I. I think about that sometimes and I'm like, really?

Julie [01:52:55] Like, though, does sexual.

Dana [01:52:56] Does sex have a place in the church? Right. Like, is that church's responsibility? Well, it becomes the church's responsibility when they are holding bishops interviews with youth from 12 up and asking about their sexual experiences. Then sex becomes, you know, the church's issue when they tell you that, you know, when something like that happens to you, that it's your responsibility to go and confess that to a bishop, that sex becomes a church's problem when they're hammering into, no pun intended, young men about masturbation and porn. Right. And not just young men, but even adult men. And sex becomes the church's issue. It does.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] Could we just take a minute and we'll make this into a short for like YouTube or, or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram or whatever. Since I. In all my years as a Mormon man, the word consent never came up. Not once. And I'm sure in 2024, there's zero church, Mormon church supported training on mentioning that consent is a thing, let alone teaching young Mormon men or women or young men or young women what consent is. So could we just do a round robin? Could we educate young Mormon men and women, to the extent that they might need it, what not to do, what consent is and what consent isn't? And let's just. We'll turn this into a little short. So just extemporaneously, how. Let's. Let's educate young Mormon men. What should they do and what should they not do? Who wants to go first?

Meg [01:54:41] If someone says no, it's a no. There is no type of trying to explain it away. It's no.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Okay? No means no.

Dana [01:54:50] And if somebody says yes and then later on they say no, it's a no.

John Dehlin [01:54:56] It's a no. Even after yes.

Julie [01:54:58] Silence is also not consent.

Dana [01:55:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:55:00] Okay.

Julie [01:55:01] And to be a little more off the cuff, to quote my friend Richie, if it's not a yes, it's a no. Enthusiastic consent.

John Dehlin [01:55:13] I've heard it described as a hell yes and a high five.

Jess [01:55:17] Okay, Whatever version appeals to you best, Yes. I think also, like, I've had a guy, I was just talking. We were on a second date. I was talking, and he just kissed me while I was talking. Maybe if you're like, in a relationship and, you know, kissing is just kind of like a normal, like, Physical touch between you, but like a second date. And I was talking, don't do that.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] Okay.

Dana [01:55:42] And on that vein, just because you are in a relationship with somebody, consent still applies. Yeah, consent still applies.

John Dehlin [01:55:51] There can be marital rape, relationship, communal relationship.

Sexual Naivety and the Law of Chastity

Dana [01:55:55] And there's really an imbalance, I think, with, in Mormonism, young women, this is my experience at least young women are very, very naive. And Mormon young men, I think just, you know, for whatever I mean, they are, they're talking about sex in young men, from what I understand. So inherently they have more knowledge. And I think just also naturally that's kind of, you know, just more of a thing for young men. But Mormon women are so naive and they get put into this ward. Right. Bringing it back to YSA. They get put into this YSA ward and they're with men who could be from 18 all the way up to 30 or 35.

Dana [01:56:32] Most of them are in their 20s. Right. But you have a 21, 22, 23 year old returned missionary and you have an 18 year old teenage girl who just got out of high school. She has no idea what the fuck is going on, what the fuck is happening. And this young man who has a lot more life experience and a lot more sexual experience, she might not even understand what's happening. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] Yep.

Meg [01:56:57] Yeah. And I would say for the women, you're empowered to say no, point blank.

Julie [01:57:02] One time I was, I had a guy over, to be fair, he wasn't Mormon, but I had a guy over to watch a movie and we were like, I was kind of like laying back on his chest while we were watching the movie. And he put his hand on my boob and I like pushed his hand away and he put his hand back and I pushed his hand away and he put it back. And it's like, I shouldn't have to say, don't touch my boob. Granted it was like in high school, but still, like, you know, if somebody pushes, that's, you know, I'm clearly not. Don't want you to do that.

Jess [01:57:36] So, yeah, I think somehow also people think that they can be sneaky. I was dating someone, we were pretty early in the relationship and we were watching a movie and we were cuddling and I like felt a hand coming around my side, up my right breast. And I was like, what are you doing? And he was like, oh. I was like, I can, I have nerve endings there. I can feel you trying to feel me up. Like, I. I don't know what was going through his head, but, you know, somehow I feel like Guys try to be sneaky about it.

Dana [01:58:22] Mormon men have no concept of women's nerve endings, period. End of story.

Julie [01:58:33] Okay? But then there's the entire other end of the spectrum, where I have known people who have not kissed until they've gotten engaged. And so one of my young women's leaders, she was very proud of the fact that her first husband, at least they did not kiss until they were engaged. And that stems, I think, a huge aspect of Mormon dating is the rhetoric from the first presidency in past years of any two people can make a marriage work if you put the church and God first. And I think that that's an aspect of the shallowness of Mormon dating as well, is that if you're a return missionary, if you have a temple recommend, if I'm, you know, moderately attracted to you, cool, let's do it.

Julie [01:59:21] And if we don't hate each other, let's get married. And I think that is a huge, like, especially people who date, you know, date and marry their first, second boyfriend. That is a huge reason why they just jump in marriage, because it's like, oh, we get along. This is great. We want to have sex.

Julie [01:59:39] Let's get married. Because we were both members. Your family's great, my family's great. We like the same things, I guess. And they might not know each other very well, but it's just, oh, we met at the temple. Oh, you're both a returned missionary, whatever it is.

Julie [01:59:56] You know, and then you realize that, you know, there's so many stories of people who then leave the church and realize, would I have married this person if we hadn't been Mormon and if the church hadn't told us that, it would be fine.

Young Men, Dating Apps, and Masculinity

John Dehlin [02:00:14] Let's just touch on quickly this dynamic that I've been hearing a little bit about lately in sort of 2024America, that there's kind of a crisis of young men. The young men are, by a multiple, more likely to die by suicide, that they're more likely to have depression, that they're far less likely to graduate from college. Now, I think the disparity, there's like a 10 or 15 percentage point disparity right now between women graduating from college versus men and men. Young men aren't doing well. In fact, my understanding is sexual activity rates amongst men, young men and men, single men in the United States has plummeted.

John Dehlin [02:01:06] And men are. Single men are having much less sex than they ever had in multiple generations. So there's kind of a mental health crisis basically, for. For young men. And that's Kind of the opposite problem. Right. They're in their basements. They're, you know, they're playing video games.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] And I don't mean to stereotype anyone, but I mean, there's a group. I think the incels is another movement. Do you want to talk about that? And whether y' all have bumped into that or seen it or whether you

Dana [02:01:37] think it's a thing, I would say, I mean, yes, incels, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] And what does that stand for?

Dana [02:01:42] It's involuntary celibate. So people who really would like to have sex, but nobody would like to have sex with them because. I don't know. Best way I can put it. And yeah, I would say that's kind of as far as the men go. It seems like that's kind of who is left over in a single sword, you know, after, like a certain point, after a certain age. That's kind of. That's kind of what you end up with.

John Dehlin [02:02:11] And that's something women notice and talk about, you know, when they're talking sometimes maybe.

Jess [02:02:17] Yeah, I think that I've definitely seen it in the spheres that I'm in, like on the Internet. I think that. I think that men have been ill prepared for, like, the liberation of women and like, the empowerment of women. And women now expect a lot more from men that they want to be with. I think maybe not like as a whole, but way more than they have in the past. And instead of being prepared for that, they've been taught by their fathers or church leaders the way that their fathers or church leaders have had. Have experienced interacting with women. But now it's different and they haven't been taught as to what they need to do in order to live up to our expectations, which aren't crazy, you

Dana [02:03:19] know, but, well, let's do the same thing.

John Dehlin [02:03:21] So, like Mormon young men, Mormon men, what you're about to hear is kind of the extra for what modern, let's just say educated, enlightened women are wanting and needing, in addition to what you learned in Mormonism. Go ahead.

Jess [02:03:39] Mental work. Like, that's. That's been a subject that I've been, you know, hearing a lot about. Instead of, instead of saying like, oh, honey, what do. What should I do to help? Thinking about what would be helpful and doing it.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] Other things.

Meg [02:03:59] Yeah, partnership. It's not patriarchy. And I'm going to have a voice, I'm going to have an opinion and I'm going to share it. And I'll listen to yours, you listen to mine.

John Dehlin [02:04:07] And that doesn't come natural in Your experience to Mormon men?

Meg [02:04:12] I think it depends on how you're raised. I definitely have noticed a dichotomy between those that I've dated that aren't members and those that I have. And it's definitely easier for non members, I think. Just because you weren't raised in a structure that kind of told you the man was in charge, the head of the household. That's what I've seen.

John Dehlin [02:04:27] So in your experience, non Mormon men are more partnership based, less patriarchal than Mormon men?

Meg [02:04:33] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] Jess, you too?

Margi Dehlin [02:04:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] Okay.

Jess [02:04:37] I mean, I, I haven't had much experience until recently with non Mormon men, but yeah, okay.

Dana [02:04:44] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would, I would agree with that. I think it's like what Jess said, right? Like feminism. There's just some men that are. Feel so threatened by that. And I mean, I've been out of the church and kind of away from that scene for long enough that I don't, you know, I don't really claim to have a pulse on that right now, so I can't really comment on that. But I would say, you know, overall, I think, yeah, women, we are expecting a lot more because we. That's what we deserve. Right? Like, and so I think just kind of coming to expect that because we are learning about our worth in a different way. That's kind of the new expectation.

Julie [02:05:36] I think a lot of Mormon men in particular go from living at home to getting married, and they don't live on their own first, and they go from having their mother take care of them to having their wife take care of them. And I think it's really, I think it's been a huge detriment to men in particular to have the missionary age range be dropped because they don't have that gap year. They don't have that time away at college to establish themselves and to find their own footing in their own life and what they want. And it's men, because they don't have deep emotional. Not always, of course, but they usually don't have deep emotional relationships with their friends.

Julie [02:06:20] It's very surface level. We hang out, we play video games, we go fishing, and that's it. They don't, you know, there's a joke of like, hey, you know, my buddy's getting divorced. Oh my gosh, what happened? I don't know, I didn't ask. And it's like. And it's a joke, but it's also like they don't think to ask. They don't have those deeper emotional bonds with their friends. And men frequently find that in their partner. And so they are not fulfilled emotionally unless they have a partner partner. And because women usually have emotional bonds with their friends, they choose to have a romantic partner. We don't need a romantic partner.

Julie [02:06:59] We want one. And men usually need one to feel emotionally fulfilled. And it's, you know, they will use their partner as their therapist. They will use their partner as their maternal surrogate instead of as a partner. And I think that men need therapy. Everyone needs therapy. But men, you know, they need therapy, especially if they come from a patriarchal society or patriarchal culture, which most men do, even if it hasn't been as high demand as Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness or whatever. And they, you know, to figure out what they want and what they need and to make themselves happy without. Without external validation. And, you know, so many men, like my.

Julie [02:07:52] One of my very low bar criteria on dating apps is to like a guy who looks happy. Like, so many men are just kind of dead behind the eyes and it's really sad. Like, even if they're smiling, it's like, yeah, you know, it's not like they don't look happy. And, you know, we don't want, you know, some women want projects, but people who are very set in themselves and they want a partner, they don't need a partner. They're looking for somebody to compliment them and to match their enthusiasm, to match their effort.

Julie [02:08:31] And if you're not already happy, if you're not already fulfilled in hobbies, friends, if you hate your job, whatever it is, if you're looking for someone to make you happy because you aren't there already, then all you're going to do is bring your partner down.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:49] You know, it reminds me a little bit of an interview we did with Alison Schiffler. She's a local therapist here in the Salt Lake area, where she was talking about how patriarchy hurts men as well. And she kind of goes into this idea of women have their own version of the harm and all that it does. And men do, too. The disconnect, you know, to themselves. Just like we have a disconnect to ourselves and how that, you know, manifests itself in, you know, toxic masculinity, not feeling your feelings, not being aware of feelings, not knowing how to emotionally connect in meaningful ways with vulnerability. And I think, yeah, so relating very much with what you're saying and kind of a deeper why and what is actually lost in patriarchy. And it's a loss for everyone, really. Yeah.

Jess [02:09:52] I can say I've definitely had experience with that. I had a partner who. He didn't like me. Like, he didn't feel comfortable for some reason, like, having me talk with his parents or like, introduce me to his parents or talk with them on the phone. But they would, like, ask him to thank me for taking such good care of him while he was out on his own. And that was.

John Dehlin [02:10:27] So the parents were hoping that a woman would step up and take care of their son.

Jess [02:10:31] Well, I think they were hoping that somehow their son would be okay. He had a lot of mental health issues, which at the time I was very drawn to. I had like, that savior complex where I was like, I'm going to help this guy because I can relate. You know, I've been there. But I've realized that that's not good for a relationship.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:57] Right.

Jess [02:10:58] And kind of.

John Dehlin [02:10:59] Kind of a codependency.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:00] Codependent.

Jess [02:11:01] Oh, yeah, it was. It was very toxic. But I. I've realized that like that. And I have. I have more to say on this, and it might come more into play later, but you can jump.

John Dehlin [02:11:15] You jump in now.

Revelation, Codependency, and Relationships

Jess [02:11:16] Well, I. I've been thinking a lot about and how things went with this person and the way that revelation played a role. And the other night I was thinking, there's a quote by Joseph Smith, and he says, some revelation is from God, some revelation is from man, and some revelation is from Satan.

Jess [02:11:42] And I. My whole life was taught that, like, my mind wasn't really my own. My mind was like a battleground for God and Satan. And some thoughts were from Satan, some thoughts were from God, some thoughts were my own.

Jess [02:12:02] And I was tasked with distinguishing which ones were which. I think that some people don't bother with figuring that out. They just kind of say, oh, well, like, some of these thoughts are bad, so they're Satan. Some of them are good, so they're God. And I think that that lack of, you know, looking into yourself and sorting out your emotional ecosystem in your own self leads to a lack of self awareness, and that leads to. To a lack of emotional intelligence, and that ultimately leads to codependency or manipulation or coercion or even abuse. And so,

Dana [02:12:49] yeah, that.

Jess [02:12:51] That was my thought.

Dana [02:12:53] Yeah, I. That like, really resonates quite a bit. And I had no idea, like, just this idea of codependency. I didn't know that that existed until I was like, almost 30 probably. But looking back, I think it becomes such a huge dynamic within the Mormon culture and, you know, between men and women and kind of like this, you know, the, like, savior coming in. Right. Not the actual. It's not a good word to use, to be clear. Yeah, yeah. Like the, you know, the superhero hero. Right. Coming in to save the day and to rescue and that. That is kind of. And I think it also comes in with, like, benevolent patriarchy.

Jess [02:13:35] Right.

Dana [02:13:35] Where we're like, oh, like, women are so great. Right. They are just there. We couldn't live without them. Right. Like, nothing would function without women. And that includes, like, men's emotional regulation, and they're being able to just take care of themselves without having to somebody, whether it's their mom or their partner or their wife step in and, you know, handle things. And I love, like, emotional intelligence. Right. Like, bringing that up. That's so huge. Where. I think that is a huge thing where it doesn't feel maybe like equals in that area of emotional intelligence and where it really is the woman that is bringing that to the table and then having to come in and kind of like, pull that out of a man kind of a thing and kind of help them to develop that rather than expecting them to, you know, come in as a full person themselves.

Julie [02:14:33] I also think that for both men and women, especially in the YSA scene, you feel like you're waiting. That there's no point in doing something because you're just waiting to get married. And that once you're married, then your life begins.

Jess [02:14:46] Yeah.

Julie [02:14:46] And that it's like, oh, well, I'll take care of that with my partner. I'll do that, you know, side by side with my partner or whatever. But in reality, you should be working on yourself the whole time so you can meet somebody halfway. And there's just. Yeah, there's definitely just this waiting. Like, you're just. Your whole life is on hold until you get married, until you can have kids, and then you can go back to your homeward, and then you can do this, you can do that. And.

Meg [02:15:14] Yeah.

Julie [02:15:15] You know, especially with. You know, a lot of women enjoy having children because of the attention they get during pregnancy. You know, it's like, I don't know. You know, you get parties thrown for you and all that kind of stuff, and everyone is always asking you questions, and. But, you know, if you don't have kids, if you don't want to get married, if you're, you know, you're kind of invisible, especially, like, as an older single in the church, that you're just. You have, like, no value. And it's like, they don't consciously think that. Like, they would never say that. Of course, but that's the subliminal, you know, subliminal messaging that it's like, oh, well, it'll happen for you in, after, you know, in the afterlife, you'll get married. But once you hit 30, it's like, oh, too bad, so sad.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:04] And don't you find it within Mormonism too? You know, there are all these object. I don't know, these lessons that I think members like to kind of bring out. So if you have an older single woman in your ward, it's almost like, see, look how sad that looks. Like you don't want that. Do you know what I mean?

Julie [02:16:23] Yeah, yeah.

Dana [02:16:24] Or kind of the foil to that being like, well, look at like Sherry Dew, right? Like, Sherry Dew is this, like, amazing, you know, author. And she's this spiritual powerhouse. And if she can be single and be happy and live the gospel and have that hope for her eternal companion when she's dead, like, then, you know, like, you should be able to do that too.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:48] So.

Julie [02:16:49] Cuts both ways.

Dana [02:16:50] Yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, like, that's the expectation of. Well, I guess that's, you know, almost like your child to bear or whatever kind of a thing. Like it didn't, you know, if it's not gonna happen for you in this life, you know, it'll be next life.

Jess [02:17:05] But it's.

Dana [02:17:06] Yeah, there's definitely like these figures who, on one hand, you know, it is kind of like the cautionary tale. You don't wanna end up like that. But then also, if it's looking like you are gonna end up like that, it's like, well, look, you can still serve in the church and be faithful.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:22] That's an interesting point that you bring up too, because I think culturally that exists as well, outside Mormonism. I feel like a single woman that actually chooses to be single and not have children. Like some of those assumptions and kind of what the public at large wants to say about that. So then it's like a layered situation where you're getting it wherever you go. There is no right safe place for you to.

Julie [02:17:52] Because, like, I'm child free. I've chosen not to have children anymore. And that's mainly because of my experience in the church. Because funnily enough, because, like, the ideal was sold like Christmas morning and, you know, family game nights and Disneyland and that kind of thing and the happy family. But, you know, I work in childcare and I see the realities of having children. And like most people who want children, they see the ideal. They, you know, they have the Happy family. And so they want, you know, it's like, of course I want kids. I, you know, I come from a happy family. I also want children, or the vice versa.

Julie [02:18:29] I come from a broken family. I want to have a big, whole, wholesome family. And. But, like, do they factor in? What if one or all of your children have autism? What if they have disabilities? What if your partner dies or you get divorced? Are you willing to be a single parent?

Julie [02:18:47] And you. So many people want, you know, they just think of it as. It's like, oh, we're married. That's it. And it's like, yeah, but do you want children enough? Do you want that dynamic enough to be willing to risk all the negatives? And I don't think enough people choose actually critically think about the effects of their choice. And especially in Mormon land, where you're taught that it's the greatest joy ever. And if. What if you are a regretful parent? You have your first child's great. Then your second child, you know, doesn't sleep, has anger issues, whatever it is.

Julie [02:19:29] And there's no space for you to be like, I regret being a parent. And you're. Something's wrong with you. You're not faithful enough. You're. Whatever it is. And I think it's really damaging to say that if you're faithful enough or, you know, this will bring you the most joy. And so when it doesn't bring you the most joy, you're the problem.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] Yeah. And that's interesting because, you know, your story, Dana, was heartbreaking and it was so moving. And I have so many family members, let's just say nieces, nephews, cousins, who are choosing not to have kids by choice. That's kind of a generational Gen Z, maybe millennial Gen Z thing, where I bet a lot of people are washing out of Mormonism just because they're childless by choice.

Dana [02:20:20] Yeah, sure. Seeing that my little brother, he's six years younger than me, so he's kind of on that cusp of Gen Z, and he and his partner have decided that that's not. At least for now, but it's been a few years, they're pretty set on not having kids. And I think, honestly, like, there's no

John Dehlin [02:20:37] way in Mormonism that's okay, right?

Dana [02:20:39] No.

John Dehlin [02:20:40] Like, you get up in Sacramento, decided

Dana [02:20:42] not to have kids that would not be socially acceptable. Like, and, you know, of course there's always that choice, but, like, at what cost is that choice going to bring.

Julie [02:20:50] You're selfish.

Dana [02:20:51] Yeah, yeah. But I mean, honestly, right now I think not having kids, like, it's the cost of living, right? Like, how are we actually going to pay for these children? That's a huge reality right now. And also just, you know, like, the state of the world that millennials have come of age in and Gen Z, it's scary. I don't know. In some ways I'm like, it would be great to adopt a kid who needs a home that's already on this earth. But, like, why are we gonna bring more lives into this mess? That's just, you know, my very common sentiment.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:21] And I hear as well, mental health, there's more of a sense of informed consent around pregnancy, pregnancy, childbirth, parenting, where literally some of the reasons are mental health. Like, I have no assurance my mental health can handle my life now, let alone adding more stress to it or my body. Physical health, consent to actually birth a baby and go through with some of the risks of that and what happens. And so it's a whole different, I feel like, way of looking at it

Meg [02:21:55] that, yeah, yeah, I think I definitely have some mental health struggles that have caused me to consider those very things of, like, how is this going to affect me, what it's going to look like? And talking, you know, when you're in Mormon and dating, it gets brought up very quickly of like, so kids, like, let's get into it. And then currently dating someone that isn't a member. And it was a little. It was later in the relationship of being like, it's a big scary thing, but, like, I'm only wanting one or two kids. And it was like, well, duh, like, have you consider, like, the economy and like, just the cost, like, everything that's surrounding it and like, I want to make sure that you're able to still have a fulfilling, enjoying life.

Meg [02:22:27] And I'm like, oh, that was not something. That was just not the answer that I was expecting to get in a very good way. But that was. That's definitely a consideration. I think that a lot of people are like, again, it's the. You have your choice. You should choose this, though, over and over.

John Dehlin [02:22:42] Interesting. Really quickly, there's. I've heard about this dynamic where Mormon men are taught that they're priesthood holders, that you know that if anyone's going to have that direct line to God, it's going to be that Mormon man, returned missionary. Have you all ever had experiences where Mormon men come to you and say, God told me I'm supposed to marry you? Or, you know, where the Mormon man thinks that they're receiving revelation, not Just for him, but for you as well. Does that ever happen?

Jess [02:23:11] Yeah. So that's pretty. That's like a myth in Provo, but it's also very much a reality. You know, I've had many friends who have said that they've had some permutation of that happen to them. And I was always like, well, if that ever happened to me, I would run screaming the other way.

Jess [02:23:33] However, with sufficient priming, that can be a very effective, whether on purpose or not on purpose, manipulation tactic. I was in a relationship that was on and off again for a while with this guy, and he was never really sure what, you know, if we should be together. He was always kind of like, I don't know, like, are we right for each other? I don't know if this is the right thing.

Jess [02:24:11] And I would, you know, we would try to work it out, and then it would be better, and then it would get worse. Anyways, so one of the last times that we were broken up, he was not doing great. I was getting calls, voicemails, texts.

Jess [02:24:37] And then one day I was outside, and he walks up to me and he's. He's just. He's beaming. He's so, like, happy. And I was like, what's your problem? Like, last night you were, like, crying to me, what's going on?

Pressure to Marry Young and Its Consequences

Jess [02:24:56] And he was like, oh, well, can I, like, can I talk to you tonight? After I have a meeting with bishop, but after that, can we talk? And I was like, sure. And so he comes back from his meeting with the bishop, and we take a walk, and he starts giving me this, like, spiel about love and marriage. And there's this Jeffrey R. Holland video about, like, taking the wrong road to know that, to be confident in the right road. And he basically goes, I prayed and fasted and I begged God that if he would, you know, make me confident that you were the one, that I would be, like, the most righteous, devoted person.

Jess [02:25:44] And I got an answer that I can be with you. And normally I would think I would have run away screaming, and I probably should have at that point. But

Dana [02:26:00] he.

Jess [02:26:01] There. There's just a lot going on. You know, on one hand, I was 24, and I was like, I'm running out of time.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:11] You're like, I've been chosen.

Jess [02:26:13] Yeah. I'm like, okay, I've been chosen. I'm 24. I'm getting to old hag. I'm probably going to graduate soon. What are the odds that I find someone else within the church who will want me? And I've Been steeped in this BYU paradox of choice. You know, cookie cutter. I'm like, I don't know, I might never find somebody ever again. And then also I'm like, okay, well, you know, he's being reasonable here because he asked. He was like, well, you should get your own answer.

John Dehlin [02:26:47] Sounds like Joseph Smith and Martin Harrison.

Dana [02:26:49] That's what I was. I was going to say this is very, like early, early Mormon. Like, the roots of Mormonism really come down to the.

Julie [02:26:55] Does anyone recognize this story?

Margi Dehlin [02:26:57] Have we heard it before?

John Dehlin [02:26:58] I mean, it is undue influence. God told me, but go ask God for yourself, right?

Jess [02:27:03] You know, if I trust this person, we've had, you know, seven or, I don't remember how long, seven to nine months, you know, together, kind of like. And a lot of trauma bonding. There's a lot that went on in this relationship.

Jess [02:27:18] And so I'm. I. I trust him, you know, I. I see that he's a very, you know, earnest. Yeah, earnest in his seeking for revelation. And so what am I gonna say? No, I think you're wrong. But I mean, I was like, yeah, I think that's reasonable. I will pray and find out. And so I was like, okay, we can get back together. And I was praying to know if we should get married. Like, that's where it was.

Jess [02:27:46] And I was praying. I was fasting. Well, I didn't fast that much. I don't like fasting. But I was praying really hard, and I was just getting everything under the sun. I felt super happy. I was hopeful. I felt peace at times. You know, I mean, here's this guy. Our whole entire relationship, I have never felt secure and that he was going to. I always felt like at any moment he could be like, no, you know, and now I have this guarantee from God that he will stay with me and that he is confident.

Jess [02:28:25] And so, you know, there's that. And I feel really happy about that. But I also, with all of these positive feelings and feeling occasionally, often this deep dread, and I'm trying to figure out where it comes from. Is it, you know, is it God trying to warn me that this isn't the right thing? Is this my own anxiety? Is this Satan trying to keep me from progressing on the covenant path? And I just could not figure it out

John Dehlin [02:29:02] and motivate. You know, as someone who has a training in psychology, motivated reasoning and confirmation bias are very powerful human dynamics. So if you've been told your whole life, your whole purpose is to have some Mormon boy pick you, and you're aging out because You've been conditioned to think 24 is old hag territory, then your cognitions are going to push you towards wanting to receive that revelation. You're gonna be biased towards assenting to that young Mormon man's quote, revelation, for sure.

Dana [02:29:37] Well, and can I just say, like, how sad is that? That it's not about that you're madly in love, right. And that you have just, like, such a connection or that you feel safe with him. It sounds like you didn't feel safe with him because you felt like at any moment he's going to walk away. Right. Which is kind of how I felt with Mormon dating. Most of the time was like, you know, hey, anybody else could walk in here again? Because it's not this deep connection. It's the, you know, any two righteous people who are somewhat, you know, compatible, like attractive, like, it's going to work.

Dana [02:30:08] It's going to be fine. So, like, that's just. It's sad that it's to a point for him and for you, for both of you, where you have to, like, take that to, you know, Heavenly Father or whatever and try and interpret these messages rather than just feeling it for yourself and having this deep connection with a person. Because that's what marriage should be, right? That's what partnership should be. And the fact that you're making these decisions based on trying to, like, figure out what Heavenly Father is trying to tell you rather than what you are feeling and what you want for yourself.

John Dehlin [02:30:43] Because I think the data show that if you wait to get married, you know, late 20s, early 30s, even late 30s, your, your probability, your likelihood of marital satisfaction goes way up. And if you wait to have kids, on average, you're going to be a better parent if you wait to have kids. So it benefits the church to get married young, to get married and to get married young and have kids young. But it doesn't benefit the individual and it doesn't benefit the spouse and it doesn't benefit the kids. The only person, the only thing that really benefits is the Mormon Church from pushing this narrative. Everybody else loses relative to, I think, what are the optimal choices? I think, on average.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:29] Yeah.

Julie [02:31:29] And conversely to like, having that kind of confirmation bias of like, oh, you know, they've chose me, therefore you kind of, like, give yourself the answer. I have a friend's husband, they've left the church too. And he didn't realize until after he'd left the church that so many of his, like, spiritual promptings that were like, oh, you shouldn't go to this place. Or, you know, this is a bad choice or whatever. He just had anxiety. Like, it had nothing to do with whether this was a good or bad choice. He was just. He had anxiety disorder and chalked it up to it being the spirit.

Jess [02:32:04] Yeah, I'm convinced that this guy thought. Thought that I was the best he was gonna get and was trying to make himself want to be with me, if that makes sense. And I think that he created that answer. And ironically enough, the thing that saved me was I really.

Jess [02:32:27] It was my patriarchal blessing. It talks about, like, it really makes a huge deal about who I marry. And so, because I valued my patriarchal blessing, and I was trying to be very careful about who I was going to marry, I took long enough. I think it was maybe, like, two weeks that I still wasn't getting an answer. And I think he got spooked, and he iced me out.

Jess [02:32:51] He, you know, didn't want to talk to me, didn't want to be around me. He kind of, like, ghosted me almost, and I essentially had to break up with him, and he, like, forced me to break up with him because I think he just didn't want a door to come back to, which I think is just another example of, like, that emotional illiteracy or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meg [02:33:21] I think that another really big thing, too, is when you are older, you're able to handle conflict better, able to reason things out, talk, and really have a relationship where both of you are able to come to the table. Whereas if you get married younger, like, your brain just isn't developed like that is.

John Dehlin [02:33:35] It's not.

Meg [02:33:35] That's fine. Scientific.

John Dehlin [02:33:36] Like, 26, right?

Meg [02:33:38] Yeah. Like, your brain isn't developed. And so conflict, I think it invites a lot of codependency. I think a lot of toxicity. And I think that creates a cycle where you're both codependent. You're needing to talk it out, so you go to church to try and figure it out. And it's just this cycle over and over. And I think it doesn't lead to a lot of satisfaction for many couples because you haven't had the chance to grow and develop. You didn't ever have the full, like, ability to have your brain developed at age 26. Yeah.

Dana [02:34:02] And on top of just being married, then having kids right away, too, Most of the time. A lot of the time. And so now you're, in some cases, still a teenager or maybe, you know, maybe barely 21, and you're having children, so you're trying to navigate Life with this person that you may or may not be madly in love with and your prefrontal cortex is not developed all the way and you're having babies and you might still even be in school and trying to finish a degree all at the same time.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:29] That's right.

Julie [02:34:32] And I think that depriving young people of living with and experiencing relationships with a variety of people with different communication styles and different attachment styles and different

John Dehlin [02:34:43] levels of attraction templates and like, you

Julie [02:34:45] know, sexual compatibility and all that stuff, especially like even roommates, you learn who, what kind of person you're compatible living with. And you know, there's.

John Dehlin [02:34:55] Well, they got that on their missions with their missionary companions.

Julie [02:34:58] But I think there's. Was it the like the really racist advice about like, don't marry somebody of a different race because you like, you start on like a much more difficult foot because you're so different or even

Meg [02:35:13] don't date non members because you don't come from well.

Julie [02:35:16] And it's like, I do think that there's some wisdom in that, but like politically and sexually and it's like if you date, if you marry the first person that you like and you don't even know like what kind of community, like can you communicate? Can you do this? And it's like when you're that young, you don't think about that kind of stuff. Like it's just, it's not even in your realm of like, it's just like, oh, it's so fun. Oh, he likes me. Oh, he's so cute. We have so much fun.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] There's a line in the outline about Disney vacation of Mormon dating. Can you guys describe what that is and how it, how it plays into things?

Meg [02:35:49] I think this comes from when you're very young because one, temples are beautiful, absolutely beautiful buildings. Mormon temples. Yes. And you have this beautiful white dress. And I think that it's very similar to like a Disney wedding where it's like the happily ever after. Is there a curse there? And then the end and you just always are good after that. And I think that that is where there's a lot of. It's obviously not like taught into you, but I think it's definitely represented.

John Dehlin [02:36:13] I also think what is Disneyfication in a Mormon context of a Mormon dating?

Dana [02:36:18] So I mean, I think there's different versions of it. I think there's the Disney princess, right, like the fairy tale happily ever after kind of thing. But then also I think to me it kind of goes along with infantilization of adults and you know, you don't have real conversations.

Meg [02:36:34] Yeah.

Dana [02:36:34] And you're not. Well, you're just. You're not considered an adult, like, fundamentally. And this comes, like, just with the whole idea of having a YSA ward in the first place, is that you are not an adult until you are married. So you could be 25 years old and not married, and you're not an adult, but you could be 20 and be married. And you are, you know, all the rights, responsibilities, privileges, all of that is bestowed upon you because you are married.

John Dehlin [02:36:59] In Mormonism.

Dana [02:36:59] In Mormonism, yeah. Yeah, definitely. So there's this idea, like in. In YSA boards, you really are treated like children, and you don't have any real leadership roles or leadership responsibilities, and everything is just fun and happy. And it's kind of like you can't

John Dehlin [02:37:20] be a Mormon bishop or you can't be a leader in the young men or a leader in the young women or relief study president in a traditional family ward.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:30] What?

John Dehlin [02:37:30] Unless you're married.

Dana [02:37:31] Yeah. So Unless you're married. So, I mean, with ysa, right, Young, single adult wards, they're completely separate congregations from a normal or like a, you know, mainstream congregation. So already you're being segregated and kind of put into a different place sometimes. A lot of times, even in just a completely different church building. And everybody in that congregation or that ward is young, single adult, except for the leaders. So the bishopric of that ward, the bishop and his counselors are married men, usually drawn from the local community, not

John Dehlin [02:38:04] from the ward membership.

Dana [02:38:05] Yeah, no, because. Yeah, you're not married if you're in the YSA ward. So they come from the outside. Right. They bring them in to be leaders and their wives as well, because they all have to be married. Their wives become leaders in the ward as well. And. And so there are leadership roles. Like, you have a Relief Society president who is a young, single adult woman, and you have an elders Quorum president who is single. But then you have, like, advisors. So a bishop's wife, for example, might be the Relief Society advisor. So, you know, I, for example, I was a Relief Society president in one of my YSA wards, and I was not like a regular Relief Society president.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:50] Right.

Dana [02:38:50] Because I had this married woman, this older married woman who kind of oversaw things and actually, you know, approved things or made decisions. So it's kind of like this extra level, because we know in the church, it's patriarchal.

Meg [02:39:03] Right.

Dana [02:39:04] And that there's the stake president and the bishop, and those are the guys really making all of the decisions. So in a Regular ward. Then you have, then you have your Relief Society leadership, but they're really just, you know, underneath the bishop, like they're never actually making decisions. You have like a whole other level below that in a YSA context. Because now you have the married women on top. Like, so you have more layers.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:29] Interesting.

Dana [02:39:30] And so really, like, there's no. You're still a child. It's like you're playing. Oh, that reminds me of Brad Wilcox, right? Playing church in a YSA ward. Like you are, you're. You're playing church, right? You're kind of like getting some practice of leadership roles and responsibilities, but you're not actually in charge.

Julie [02:39:50] It's like their gatekeeping adulthood. Like, I, I don't remember the context, but I do remember like being in like a ward council because I was like, I was a Relief Society counselor and I was in, I did like activities a lot. And just like half jokingly, but not jokingly reminding the bishopric, I was like, we're adults. Like, we're, you know, we pay bills. Like, we live on our own. Like, this isn't, you know, just, just because we're not married doesn't mean we're not grown ups. And they were still treating us like we were in mutual. Or, you know, young men's, young women's. And it's like we're college graduates. Like, we're adults. We have careers. Half of these people own homes. Like, like this is. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:32] Fascinating. Let's do a little bit of a firing round. There's some topics that I want to get to and just kind of touch, you know, just maybe a bit of a. As we're, you know, towards the end. First one is, and there's many. Can we talk about worthiness? Many quick things to talk about. Machine guns, many rapid firing. So really quickly worthiness, you know, violations of law, of chastity or word of wisdom stuff. You're not supposed to have sex, you're not supposed to drink, you're not supposed to do drugs, that sort of thing. And then you've got these bishops that probably have different policies and practices around enforcement. You've got confessions of if you make out with somebody or go too far, who confesses and who doesn't and what are the consequences? For example, if you're in a BYU ward, rapid fire thoughts on worthiness interviews in a young single adult context. Who wants to.

Meg [02:41:31] I was always too scared to do anything.

Jess [02:41:33] So.

John Dehlin [02:41:33] So what would you do?

Meg [02:41:34] I have no horror stories. I just was like, buy the books.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] So you were just a good Girl by the church of standards.

Jess [02:41:39] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:40] You just avoided it.

Dana [02:41:41] John.

Meg [02:41:41] I was going to be perfect. You don't. Like, I was going to get it. Okay. In church.

John Dehlin [02:41:44] All right.

Dana [02:41:45] Hey, I was not perfect by any standards. And I did a lot of very, like, embarrassing. I mean, in some cases, almost like, humiliating, having to go into this man. And again, like, I am an adult woman and I mean, we could talk about as a teenager, too, but it's like kind of a different dynamic going in as an adult. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:05] What'd you have to do when you just.

Dana [02:42:06] So people know so, you know, like, not. So you go in and you confess. Right. If you feel like you have the need for whatever it was that you did and, you know, telling the bishop what. What happened, what you did, and then he kind of counsels with you usually read some scriptures with you. Usually it's, you know, you don't take the sacrament for a couple weeks or whatever, depending on what it is. However, once you have gone through the temple, then, you know, it becomes a lot more serious. And so for me, that was the case. I had a few years after I went through the temple where I was still in the church. And, you know, that it is definitely, you know, causes a little bit more complications. Like, your temple recommend usually gets taken away for a period of time. Depending on what, you know, what it is.

John Dehlin [02:42:52] It can be shaming. If the YSA ward does temple night, you can't go, and everyone wants to know why. Is that right? Or.

Dana [02:42:58] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:42:59] Okay. It's a shaming function. Or you can't take the sacrament and everybody can see. Yeah. Well, when the bread and water comes,

Dana [02:43:04] your pass, even just have having, like going to the bishop's office.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:08] Right.

John Dehlin [02:43:09] Like, oh, you're. You're standing outside waiting, or you're sitting in the chair waiting.

Dana [02:43:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:13] Because the previous one went long and people are like, why are you waiting to see the bishop?

Dana [02:43:17] Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, you gotta, like, contact the ward, you know, the. The person who's setting up the bishops.

John Dehlin [02:43:23] It might be a single.

Dana [02:43:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:24] Which is usually.

Dana [02:43:25] Yeah, yeah. And you're like, hey, I need to meet with the bishop. You know, and it's just like. It's just a mess.

Jess [02:43:30] I don't know.

Meg [02:43:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:32] Okay. And any other quick stories about that or.

Jess [02:43:35] I think if we're talking about what it should be, if you are buying into the idea that you need to talk to the bishop in order to fully repent, that bishop needs training and the bishop needs to have the idea that it's possible that there wasn't consent. He needs to ask, what was the situation here? Did you want to do this? Why, you know, are you safe? Kind of a thing. And then from that point, working on the policy of reporting sexual abuse and things like that. So.

John Dehlin [02:44:16] And I will say, versus women being blamed for being the faults of whatever happened. Right.

Jess [02:44:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:44:21] When the male may have been the aggressor.

Jess [02:44:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:24] And let's face it, women can be aggressors, too. Yeah.

Dana [02:44:26] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. I'll just add real quick. So when I lived in Davis County, I kind of had an experience with somebody that wasn't in my ward. Another, like. Or a man who wasn't in my ward. But I felt the need. And it was kind of a weird. It was a weird situation. Like, it was kind of fuzzy as far as, like, consent and all of that goes, as it usually is. But I went and talked to my bed bishop alone and just to kind of, like, get that off my chest and just, you know, tell him what had happened. And his response was he's like, well, I need to.

Dana [02:44:56] I need to know his name so that I can find his ward so that I can talk to his bishop and let his bishop know. Because he's like, he might be doing this with other young women or whatever, which, like, I'm very torn on this. Part of me is like, that's crossing a line, you know, like, we're all adults here. Like, what? Like, I don't want to have to. To give you his name. But he was very insistent on that. And I'm like, this is gonna be weird now if he's getting called in by his bishop. And he's like, why is this happening? But at the same time, maybe that bishop is trying to be a little bit more, like, being cautious of young women, like, young, single adult women, and trying to maybe give some protection or just trying to kind of caution, like, others and let his bishop know, hey, this guy is out there and maybe doing stuff like this to other people.

John Dehlin [02:45:46] Yeah. Like, if it's assault, I'm a lot. Okay. More okay with that.

Dana [02:45:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:50] Than if it's just morality policing.

Meg [02:45:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:53] And that's like, oh, he may be having. Having normative, healthy sexual relations with other people. Let me go call a stake president.

Dana [02:46:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:02] And get him in trouble, because you sure.

Dana [02:46:04] And that's where. Yeah. And that's where I feel. And honestly, like, it's been a while. So, like, it's a little bit fuzzy about what I told the bishop I think it may have been because it was a situation where it escalated and, like, I was kind of, like, in a weird situation. Not to say I was innocent, but. So I think that's probably why. Which is, you know, like, props to him. Like, that's awesome. If that was kind of, you know, I think that could be a good thing.

John Dehlin [02:46:33] But isn't it weird to frame it in terms of guilt or innocence a little bit?

Dana [02:46:39] Yeah. No, for sure, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:46:40] Like, the whole thing's weird.

Dana [02:46:41] The whole thing that I, like, went to, you know, go talk to him in the first place is just weird.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:46] Yeah.

Dana [02:46:46] I mean, by this point, I was probably 20. I was 24, 25 at that point. And so, like, to feel the need. And we didn't. Like, we didn't have sex. Right. I'll just say that, like, we didn't have sex, but, like, whatever. It was, like, the need that I am feeling because I was such a believer. Right. And so I feel that my salvation depends on telling the bishop.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:10] Okay. Also continuing the rifle round a little bit. We've talked about. You mentioned soaking really briefly, and I think you guys mentioned something called inchworming. Is that the new one? I hadn't heard yet.

Meg [02:47:28] So this is news from. I know some people that are young college students down at UVU Provo area. And you both go into a room, you take your clothes off, and then if you find each other rolling around on a mattress, you've done it. And I really just don't know how that's logistically working for them, but you find each other just rolling around on the mattress. If it happens to go in, then it goes in.

John Dehlin [02:47:52] What this speaks to is young men and young women having sex drives, knowing that they can't, and trying to find ways to do it without breaking the rules. So that's what soaking is. That's what inchworming is. That's what jump humping is. And I'm actually not bringing this up to be salacious. It's a weird thing that when you try to control Christian or Muslim or Mormon or Jewish orthodox religious people are put into where they're kind of put into probably an unnatural, unhealthy state, and it leads to weird, weird behaviors. Is it just quirky or is there a dark side to this?

Meg [02:48:34] Well, I mean, and tiktoks about it. So obviously there's something going on underneath that is very repressed.

Julie [02:48:41] There was a. There was a thing that went on. I think it was the early 2010s where Provo BYU students. It was like a thing to like drive to Vegas, get married and then get it annulled.

John Dehlin [02:48:52] And I don't even know if that's

Julie [02:48:53] real within a weekend. And like the first presidency had to come out and be like, don't do that, that's not cool, guys, that doesn't work.

John Dehlin [02:49:00] And I guess, I guess if I'll just, instead of just trying to be salacious, which I'm not. And Margi, I want to hear if you have a thought on this, but there is just the idea that if you want to have a healthy relationship, long term marriage, you want to, you want to learn your own sexual template, you want to learn your partners, you want to see if you're compatible, you want to just develop a healthy sexual set of skills or experiences. And Mormon dating doesn't allow for that. And so yes, there's these weird quirky things, but isn't the tragedy that we're just not learning basic sexual health, sexual awareness, sexual skills 100%.

Julie [02:49:42] So like I, in my late 20s, I became very academically interested in sex and sexuality and I would read books on like sex and marriage and things like that. And I found it really fascinating. And I thought that I had like such a high sex drive, I'm like, I'm gonna have sex every day when I get married and it's gonna be the best. And it wasn't until I started having sex post Mormon that I was like, oh, I was just a 30 year old virgin and horny as fuck. And you know, and I think especially a lot of young people who do get married at the height of their hormones, they're like, oh, you know, we have the same sex drive, we want to have sex all the time.

Julie [02:50:20] And then once you're actually regularly having sex, you don't need to as often or, you know, you realize that your sex drives are different because your needs are actually met. And it can cause a huge disparity in marriages because, you know, what is it? Like sex and finances are the two biggest issues in marriage.

John Dehlin [02:50:39] Not mine though, of course not mine.

Julie [02:50:42] But realize, you know, usually one person has a much higher sex drive than the other and that can cause a huge rift in a marriage. Especially when you're like, oh, is this because we don't have the same sex drive? Or is it because maybe we didn't, you know, we weren't able to sew our wild oats before we got married? And you know, is this because I want to try out other people? Or is this just because of, are we not compatible? You Know, whatever it may be.

John Dehlin [02:51:07] And how many stories have I heard where someone's gay or lesbian, but they didn't know until they got straight married because they never had a chance to really explore? And now they're stuck with an eternal marriage where they're not. They're not only. Not necessarily sexually attracted to their partner, they might be repulsed by their partner. What were you gonna say, Jesse?

Jess [02:51:27] I think it is important to, like, learn about your own sexuality. Like, I'm still learning things that I was like, oh, I didn't realize that, but. So in the past, I would hear people be like, oh, that's crazy that you don't have sex before marriage. Like, isn't it important to, like, see if you're sexually compatible? And I never understood that. I would always roll my eyes and be like, it's just. It's just sex. It's just. You just do it. There's no compatibility. You just figure it out. But, you know, as I've gained more experience, I've realized that, like, you can be vastly on different pages sexually. Like, this guy that I almost married, I would not have been on board with his sexual proclivities. I would not have been happy or satisfied. So, like, it is impossible.

John Dehlin [02:52:18] You mentioned this at dinner. Are you okay mentioning what it was, or would you rather not?

Jess [02:52:22] Well, you already did.

John Dehlin [02:52:23] Did I?

Julie [02:52:24] At the very beginning.

John Dehlin [02:52:25] Okay. The instrument worming thing or the. The bloating thing. Okay.

Jess [02:52:29] Okay. But, you know, like, it is important to. To know what you like and what you don't like and what you're not okay with. And if you're not okay with something that somebody else, it's like, their main thing. It's not going to work. And you need to know that before you get married.

Meg [02:52:48] So.

Jess [02:52:49] Yeah.

Dana [02:52:49] And it sets you up for abuse in a lot of ways. And I just wish that I could have. You know, I had a lot of great experiences growing up Mormon, but something that I wish that I would have had is just kind of more open communication and understanding about, you know, like, just. I guess not even. I'm not saying somebody had to, like, sit me down and explain it to me in more detail than was done, but just more like the ability to feel like I could explore somewhat and not feel shamed by it and just to kind of understand more and just to explore.

Dana [02:53:29] Because, you know, there is such arrested development. And you go through, like, being a virgin. Right. Most of the time, most people and, you know, having experiences here or there. But then once, you know, like, you get married, or you leave the church so that, you know, you could. No, that's not why I left the church. I leave the church so that I could have sex. But you all of a sudden find yourself being a grown ass adult with no skills and no knowledge and no understanding about who you are. And that puts you into, like, such dangerous situations. And I, you know, there's so many times where I, you know, things just get really dark or really scary, really dangerous, really fast because you don't really know where the line is, or you don't know enough about yourself or about other people to be able to make healthy, safe decisions for yourself.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:24] Yeah, great point.

Julie [02:54:26] And also, even if you choose to not have sex before you're married within the church, that there's so much miscommunication and misinformation within the church itself about what's okay and what's not. Like, you know, there was that, you know, at one point, you know, that memo went around to take precedence that oral sex was like, forbidden. And it's like, did they publicly repeal that? No. And so some people think it's still wrong and some people don't. And, you know, some things that were in the handbook aren't anymore. And so your parents may have told you one thing, or older leaders may have told you one thing, but it's not technically forbidden anymore. Or some bishops are still using that same template even though it's technically not forbidden anymore.

John Dehlin [02:55:05] Because if a prophet said it, Spencer B. Kibble said it in the 80s, it should still be true because God doesn't change. Were you gonna say something, Jesse?

Jess [02:55:13] Yeah. So I mean, I'll also say, like, John, you have like. I think you said earlier that, like, masturbation is not okay. I have even, like, found gray areas with that. I listened. I found a podcast of this, like, progressive Mormon, and she was kind of talking about the history of the church's stance on masturbation. And so I was like, interesting. And I went to my bishop and I was like, hey, like, is this okay or is it not okay? And he was like, I don't know, I think it's probably okay as long as you're not looking at porn. But, yeah, it's okay. Masturbation's fine. Yeah. And he even asked me, he was like, hey, if you learn anything else, let me know.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:58] And you were like, I definitely will

Meg [02:56:00] not be doing that.

John Dehlin [02:56:04] Yeah, those different standards are weird.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:06] So confusing.

John Dehlin [02:56:07] Yeah. Okay, next question. The firing round politics. And I'm not gonna ask this question from, like, a partisan standpoint. Or privilege one party over another. Cause I try and keep politics out of Mormon stories when I can, but one thing I learned from this past election in 2024 is that there's a pretty big gap between young men trending towards liking Donald Trump and kind of MAGA politics, like it or not like it. And young women in your generational cohort are tending to be more liberal, pro choice, you know, feminist, more Kamala, you know, progressive.

Gender, Politics, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:56:55] And again, it's just averages but a pretty like a double digit difference in. And so, and so I listened to, I actually watched read a New York Times article where it was saying that's a big thing in dating is having such different political worldviews in the Mormon universe. Are there a lot of like Joe Rogan Bros. Like Ben Shapiro Bros. Who are the other famous young Mormon YouTuber kind of people?

Jess [02:57:26] Jordan Peterson.

John Dehlin [02:57:27] Jordan Peterson Mormon or just like, yeah,

Meg [02:57:31] he's not Mormon, but yeah, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:57:32] I'm saying are young Mormon men Andrew Tate? Andrew Tate, yeah. Are young Mormon men sort of extra? Are you finding them to be extra MAGA as an example. And did you find that to be at all a factor in your dating of them, a problem?

Julie [02:57:51] Yes. In southern Utah, it was like Trump flags are. We're everywhere. And it was like almost impossible to find somebody who wasn't.

John Dehlin [02:58:02] And for you that was a problem?

Julie [02:58:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:03] Okay.

Julie [02:58:04] Because I'm, I don't do that. But. But

John Dehlin [02:58:10] you don't do that.

Jess [02:58:11] You don't do maga?

Julie [02:58:14] I mean, but yes, but no, I don't do that. It's true. If you're a Trump supporter, swipe left. But no, because I mean, like, especially in southern Utah, like, Trump flags are everywhere. Like, you know, the bigger Ford F150s with like the massive.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:33] They're everywhere, everywhere.

Julie [02:58:35] And the like that paired with the either hunting or fish photo. And so I usually would just like chat with people from like Vegas or, you know, North Salt Lake just because it was almost impossible to find somebody.

John Dehlin [02:58:47] So you, you did, you did experience that as being a problem in Mormon, in Mormon context.

Julie [02:58:51] But I mean, I would say that depending on the area, a lot of, you know, Mormon women swing conservative too. I had a roommate who I was shocked to learn that she had voted for Trump in 2016. Because, you know, there are a lot of times I think they're single issue voters. She said she voted for Trump because he was pro life.

John Dehlin [02:59:09] Yeah.

Julie [02:59:10] So. And like that was the only reason.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] Yeah, so.

Meg [02:59:13] So I think something that's fun. My undergrad degree is in Quantitative economics. My grad degree is in statistics, so I can debate on the facts of, like, the economy, all this stuff that a lot of. When I was in the church, a lot of guys, well, the economy and all this stuff, I was like, let's talk about it then. And that brought some awkward conversations. When I bring something up and be like, oh, I didn't know that. I'm like, well, you're debating someone that has a degree in, like, econ, so maybe next time don't.

Julie [02:59:38] But I found mansplaining.

Dana [02:59:40] Yeah.

Meg [02:59:40] And it would be interesting to have that context. Now I'm dating someone that is a member, and it just like, isn't that big of an issue. You know, we stand in some different political views, but at the end of the day, it's like we mutually respect each other. And it feels. Felt like when I was dating the Mormon context, as soon as I said, like, oh, I don't support that, I'd be like, oh. And that was an issue. And there was a little. There was a lack of respect that came after.

Jess [03:00:02] Ah, interesting.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:04] Okay. Okay. The big thing that I want to make sure and cover before we end is faith stuff. So 2024, you know, the past five, ten years, it's the era of the CES letter within Mormonism. It's. It's the era of, we'll just say Mormon stories, podcast or podcasts, truth claims, openness of church history, gospel topics, essays like because of the Internet, Mormons across the world, but certainly younger Mormons are.

John Dehlin [03:00:35] Or it's the era of LGBT advocacy or feminism or anti racism, because that's what Gen Z and millennials nationwide are about on average, except for the men, on average, progressive politics and pro science and aware of truth claims. So I'm curious, just generationally in Mormonism over the past five to 10 years, are most Mormon young men and young women literal believers? One true church. Joseph Smith was God's true prophet. No coffee, no tea.

John Dehlin [03:01:18] Scriptures are literal. Book of Mormon is a literal record. Are they totally oblivious to Mormon themed podcasts and CES letter stuff? Or are people more liberal? Are they nuanced? Are they like pimos physically in but really mentally out? What's the faith landscape in the young single adult scene? And just jump in, all of you, take your turns, whatever.

Meg [03:01:45] So I was terrified when I was like, oh, the CES letter, it's like going to crush my faith. And I read it and I was like, I wish I cared more about the issues that were raised here.

Jess [03:01:53] I really.

John Dehlin [03:01:54] You're like, Book of Abraham, Papyrus.

Meg [03:01:56] Yeah. I was like reading it, which is fascinating because I like love academics and I was just like, I just really can't get into it. So that to me, it was like, once that kind of happened and I was like, oh, that's actually not something that really was an issue for me. It was more like, what do I truly believe? And that's what I've also found with other people in my generation. Is it? Yes. So truth cranes, things are coming out, but a lot of it is personal choice and belief versus. I know there's always the shelf thing, but for me that wasn't the shelf breaker.

John Dehlin [03:02:22] Really quickly though, is that because you were inoculated? Because the gospel topics essays come out, let's just say 2013, 2014. And they tried to, you know, they kind of skipped the 30 somethings, 40 somethings and above. And they went right to the youth and started saying, oh, yeah, there's this polygamy thing, but don't worry about it. No, there's first vision stuff, but don't worry about it. And there's Book of Abraham stuff. Were you kind of inoculated into not caring or were you just not taught Bruce Armaconki, Joseph Fielding Smith, orthodox type Mormonism? So you weren't set up to then be disappointed. I just wonder why y' all don't care, but we cared so much.

Meg [03:03:02] I think one, I did hear both sides of it of like the more intense doctrine and then kind of coming out and being like, okay, here, here's what kind of happened. I think I was just so, like, again, just like, I need to go against the grain. I just like didn't care. That was really what it is. And that's probably not a lot of other people's experiences. It was like people would say stuff and be like, yeah, like, that just didn't even phase me.

John Dehlin [03:03:24] How about the rest of you? Is that pretty much all of you or each of you take a turn on that?

Dana [03:03:28] I mean, I was all in until I wasn't. And it was. I ended up finding the CES letter like on accident. I was not seeking anti Mormon literature, for the record. And I read it and I was like, mortified. I was upset.

John Dehlin [03:03:45] Like a couple of the parts.

Dana [03:03:46] What were some of the biggest ones? Joseph Smith, polygamy. I had no idea.

Julie [03:03:49] Right.

Dana [03:03:49] And I served a mission for the church. I went to BYU and took the religion classes. I went to institute. I went to seminary. Right. No idea. So that was huge. You know, Book of Abraham was huge. I mean, all of it put together, right? I was just like, what the fuck? And it was an overnight decision for me because it was just so, like, this is not what I was taught and this is what I base my faith on. And that quote at the beginning of the. It was actually in the movie last night too, about the heretic.

John Dehlin [03:04:17] Movie?

Dana [03:04:17] Yeah, yeah. If you know, what is it? The Gordon B. Hinckley quote. Like, it's either all true or it's all not, right? Like, it all depends on the church

John Dehlin [03:04:25] is either everything it claims to be or the biggest fraud for the biggest fraud.

Dana [03:04:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's like on the COVID page of the CES letter. And I was just like, bam, there it is.

Julie [03:04:33] Right?

Dana [03:04:33] And so for me, it was very, very black. I'm a black and white thinker, so it was very, very black and white for me. I've noticed. So with my own peers, kind of more male age, people who are still in the church tend to be much more progressive and liberal. You know, you'll see them walking with their Dutch bros coffee. And like, I have a really hard time not being judgmental because I'm like, this is not right. And like, secret lives of Mormon Wives. Like, I think it's awesome. I'm like, yes, claim it. Take, you know, take back Mormonism. Like, you. You go, girl.

Meg [03:05:05] Right?

Dana [03:05:05] Like, you do your thing. But it's really hard for me to not be like, wait a second. Like, no, like, that is not being Mormon. That is not. Like, you don't get to have the social capital and that, you know, community and all of that, but also, like, pick and choose. I also taught high school for a long time, and so I see, like, these 18 year old girls. So I kind of, you know, like that younger generation, and they're like, you know, in a crop top, in class, being like, yeah, I'm gonna put my mission papers in, you know, because girls can go on missions a lot earlier now. And I'm like, okay, good for you. You know, but, like, that never would have been a thing. So I'm definitely seeing, like, big, big changes there. Big shifts,

John Dehlin [03:05:44] others. So the CES letter took you out,

Dana [03:05:46] like, in a day you're saying the CES letter. Yeah, it took me out, John. It took me out KO. I should be a. I should be like a spokesperson for, you know.

Julie [03:05:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:59] Okay. So you and. You and Meg have slightly different experiences as it relates to the ces. Okay. Julie.

Julie [03:06:05] I think that people don't care until it hits something that they really care about. And so if it's something that is just kind of like they don't really have a big testimony in or whatever, it's like, eh, it's just an aspect of it. And I don't think until it hits something that is like a core pillar of their testimony that they're like, oh my God, that was, that was a lie. Like a big issue for me was tithing because it had been a big part of my patriarchal blessing. And I really believed in it. And I believed I was giving to charity and that I was helping, you know, I was giving back and that, you know, that's what the Lord wanted me to do.

Julie [03:06:40] And then I had a really bad month, my first couple months in southern Utah, and I went to my new bishop and I was like, hey, I really need some help with paying rent this month. Can I have a couple hundred dollars? And he told me no, straight up, nope, sorry, we don't do that. And I was just stunned. I'd never asked for anything before. And I was like, first stunned, but then I was just livid. I was like, what is my tithing money going towards if to not help people like me? And I was just like, it kind of just opened my eyes to like, what is this institution doing?

Julie [03:07:20] Like, where's that money going? Like where? Why? It's like everyone that I know pays tithing and yet our ward budget is like $500. Like, where is that money going? And just being really, really upset about that. And that's still one of the things that makes me so angry is that the average Mormon that goes to church and pays their tithing thinks that they're giving to charity and that they're doing their part to help the needy. And it's not going towards that. And I think that is the biggest scam that the church is currently doing. And it really bothers me. But for others, like, I shared the CEO's letter with a friend of mine and she claimed that she read it and she said that it didn't bother her. And I was like, well, just like Meg. And I was just like.

Meg [03:08:12] I was like, I'm not going to church. But I was like, okay.

Julie [03:08:17] I was just like, you don't care that Joseph Smith married 14 year olds? And she was like, no, I believe that he was a fallen prophet and he'll have to answer for what he did. That was, that was. That's her apologist. That's how she frames it in her head. And it isn't. I don't know if she'll ever leave but it won't be until something hits a core pillar of her testimony and kind of opens her eyes that everything else, you know, the shelf.

John Dehlin [03:08:41] Yeah. And how about you, Jess?

Jess [03:08:44] I think my issues kind of like fall into the general two categories of like, moral and also like truth claim accuracy kind of a thing. It's pretty spotty how I've been inoculated, like I have been, but also in some places I absolutely have not. Like, when I found out about the Book of Abraham issues, that one really caused me a lot of turmoil. It was right before my mission and I was like, what if this isn't true? Like, should I go? I ultimately decided to have faith and.

John Dehlin [03:09:28] Because you listen to Mormon stories pre mission, right?

Jess [03:09:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:30] That's crazy.

Jess [03:09:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:33] What were you thinking, Jessica?

Jess [03:09:35] Well, I am a very logical person and I said, if it's true, then

Julie [03:09:39] it will stand up to.

Jess [03:09:41] Yeah, it'll stand up to it. Anyways. And then I fell back on, well, maybe we just don't know everything. And so that's why it's seeming this way. Anyways, and then during a district meeting, I had this really enthusiastic apologist elder that was our district leader and he comes in and he's like, today we're going to learn about the Book of Abraham. Him. And he gave us all this stuff about how it's actually correct and everything. And I was like, okay, all right, we're good. Come to find out, it was all BS and none of it was a good answer. But, yeah, mine, it's. It's based on the historicity of things. I feel like for me, the Book of Mormon has to be historical because that's what it was claimed to be. I don't think that the church gets to go back and say, oh,

John Dehlin [03:10:33] you're not saying it is historical. You're saying if for you, if the Book of Mormon isn't historical.

Jess [03:10:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:39] Then the church falls.

Julie [03:10:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:42] It can't be just a metaphor or a myth.

Meg [03:10:46] Yeah.

Jess [03:10:46] I think those are my all or nothing kind of issues. My. The moral issues I think are more iffy for me because, yeah, I really don't like that we were racist. And we are still in a lot of ways. And I really don't like that Joseph Smith married 14 year olds and coerced, you know, sisters and mother, daughter and all of these and people that he had adopted as his own daughters into marrying him and all that. I was like, that's really not cool.

Jess [03:11:25] And I really don't like, you know, the way that the church uses money, the way that they, you know, lie or not lie, depending on how you read. Dallin H. Oaks, those things, they're a little bit. There's a little bit more leeway because if they were to change, if they were to apologize or change, then it wouldn't be an issue. But the problem I'm having right now is that they don't apologize and they're not changing. So

John Dehlin [03:11:58] thank you. One word answer for all of you. Has the church's lgbt. No. This is just because I'm curious. Has the church's issues on LGBT people been a defining issue for you in terms of a problem? So, Dana? Yes, it has. Okay. Julie,

Julie [03:12:21] one answer. I mean, one. Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:12:24] Yes.

Julie [03:12:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:25] Okay, one answer. Meg?

Julie [03:12:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:12:26] All right. Jess.

Jess [03:12:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:12:28] Okay. Has the church's LGBT issues been more of a problem for you than the church excluding women from the priesthood? And if so, help me out with that. Or has the church's exclusion of black men from having the priesthood been a bigger issue for you than women being excluded from the priesthood? Help me out with that.

Julie [03:12:57] I think benevolent misogyny or benevolent patriarchy makes women, like, not care whatsoever about having the priesthood.

John Dehlin [03:13:06] What do you mean by that?

Julie [03:13:07] That, like, you're like, oh, you don't want it. You're special without it.

John Dehlin [03:13:12] You're like, you're saying you bought that?

Julie [03:13:14] Oh, yeah. 100.

John Dehlin [03:13:15] Okay. Like, you're a victim of that.

Julie [03:13:16] Yes. It's just like, oh, you know, they need it. You know, they're, you know, that's the men.

John Dehlin [03:13:23] The men need it. Men need it because they're inferior.

Julie [03:13:25] Yeah, you have, you can have babies. You're super special. Awesome. You don't need it. And, you know, if you go on a mission, you have the priesthood. How else would you serve a mission without the priesthood? And so it's. I don't, I don't think I've met other than, like, I think in high school, I kind of, kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

Meg [03:13:43] But here's the thing, though.

Julie [03:13:45] I definitely think that LGBT stuff within the church is definitely more of a problem than women not having the priesthood, because I think it's so ingrained that men have the priesthood. That's their thing. They give blessings. That's their.

John Dehlin [03:13:57] Here's the thing, though. There's lame ass answers for the racism stuff and for the LGBT stuff. And so I guess I'm just trying to understand why women aren't outraged. Mormon women aren't outraged. And they're just like, oh, yeah, I'm upset that those people are being hurt when they're literally, literally in 2024, full stop, second class citizens in the Mormon Church. Dana.

Dana [03:14:23] I would say when I was a member and fully believing none of those issues really, like, were an issue to me because I just had so much faith, right? And I just, you know, this is what the prophets want. And I. I have a very vivid memory of myself saying, talking about, like, LGBTQ people and their rights and. And, you know, marriage equality and thinking like, man, like, I. And this was genuine. Like, this is not. Like, this was not me being facetious at the time, but I thought to myself, I'm so glad that we have living prophets to tell us and to guide us and to let us know that this is not okay.

Dana [03:14:59] Like, that gay marriage is not okay. Because if we did not have a living prophet on the earth to give us that guidance and that revelation, I could see myself really, like, getting on board with this and thinking that it would be awesome, you know, for gay people to be able to get married. But thank goodness we have this living prophet to give us this revelation because otherwise I would have been so deceived, right? Because I just. I would think that that would be great. So I'm so glad that I don't, you know. Yeah, that was literally a thought that I had since leaving the church.

Dana [03:15:28] Like, of course, my views have changed very much. Learning more about history, learning more about the racism in the church, learning more about some of the LGBTQ policies. The 2015 policy happened, I think, like, right before I left the church and when I was still in, I hadn't heard about it at all. It wasn't until after I left and kind of started learning more and getting into, you know, Mormon Stories podcast that I found out about that. And, you know, so I think there was just so much that I was unaware of at the time. And as far as women go, yeah, I don't know why, but when I was in the church, that was no problem to me at all.

Dana [03:16:06] I had no desire to have the priesthood. I must have just been, you know, like, well, I was right from. From birth, I was taught that that's the way it is, and it was not an issue for me at all. And I.

Dana [03:16:19] I remember kind of like when ordained women and all of that stuff was going on, and women are like, we're going to wear pants to church. And I'm like, you guys are just like, okay, yeah, like, okay, you wear your pants. Like, whatever. You know, you try and go get your priesthood. But, like, the priesthood is for men. Like, this. This is an Eternal principle, this is. And so I was very, very satisfied with that. And now I. I see it very differently, of course. But yeah, at the time I was very satisfied with that.

John Dehlin [03:16:47] So. Like it. So I'll just put a fine point on it and I'll come to you, y' all as well. But like, Dana, you're. You're at a PhD program. Would you work for a university that didn't allow women to have any positions of leadership? Would you even study at or attend a university that wouldn't allow that?

Dana [03:17:04] No.

John Dehlin [03:17:05] No. Yeah, you were fine if it was your church.

Dana [03:17:08] When I was in the church.

John Dehlin [03:17:10] Right, right. Meg, you're a statistician or mathematician or whatever. Would you work for a business, let's say if they were a venture capital firm or a Wall street investment banking firm that just didn't allow women to even work there unless there were secretaries, would you go work for that investment bank?

Meg [03:17:29] No, I'd go file a lawsuit of discrimination.

Dana [03:17:31] Yeah, she wouldn't be allowed to work there, John.

Meg [03:17:33] Yeah. And I would be like, I'm going to work there. I have multiple degrees.

John Dehlin [03:17:36] Like, and yet, if it's your church.

Meg [03:17:38] Oh, I was mad. I was not on board with.

John Dehlin [03:17:40] That was always a bother.

Meg [03:17:41] Yes, I would, I would ask, why not? And, and my leaders would always, like, tuck it away, put it on your shelf. And I'd bring it back down and be like, but why not? Like, why not? And like, well, you can like, get pregnant. Like, what if I don't want to get pregnant? And they're like, well, that's the wrong answer.

Jess [03:17:58] They're like, you're off script.

Meg [03:17:59] Yeah, okay, but like, but like, why not? Like, academically speaking? Like, well, you know, just go search in the scriptures. And then I would go search. I'm like, there's no mention of this. So just nothing ever was really clicking. But yeah, that was one that I did not. I was not cool with.

John Dehlin [03:18:15] Yeah.

Meg [03:18:15] So.

Dana [03:18:15] So could I ask you a question real quick? So I know you're like a little bit younger than me. Do you kind of remember, like, the ordain women movement? And like, how old were you? Like, when did that. Cuz I really.

Meg [03:18:24] That's.

Dana [03:18:24] Yeah, that's really interesting to me that you would have that, like, push back against those, like, gender, you know, norms or like, the equality.

John Dehlin [03:18:34] Yeah.

Dana [03:18:35] Oh, that's when. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:18:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Meg [03:18:36] Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I was about, I was about 13, and I do remember it was like, like that was like, they are bad people that are doing this. And I was like, okay, and then as I wrecked, kept growing up, and I was just becoming, like, really independent and really pushing back against the grain, and then seeing, I think it was in the family proclamation of, like, feminism is like a moral threat to society. And I was like, I'm a moral threat to society. Like, that's wild. That's wild to think that. And so after that, that's when I started really trying to dig in and get to a sufficient answer. And I could just never find one.

John Dehlin [03:19:09] Okay, Jess, any. Any final thing on that?

Jess [03:19:13] Yeah, you kind of stumped me there. I was thinking about it and I was like, yeah, why do I not care about women not getting the priesthood? But, like, black people and gay people, I think it's because the black issue and the gay issue or whatever, that sounds really bad. But with them, it affected men. And for me, I was like, okay, so men have the priesthood. Why can't these men have the priesthood? I guess, like, for me, it was just like a core tenant of my upbringing and of the church that, like, men have the priesthood, women don't have the priesthood.

John Dehlin [03:19:45] So basically, you're an. You're an afterthought for you, I guess.

Jess [03:19:49] But I was. I was just like, okay, you're your own afterthought. I think it's more of just like, if I'm accepting the doctrine of the church, which is that men have the priesthood, why don't these men get the priesthood?

John Dehlin [03:20:00] Sure.

Jess [03:20:00] Especially like black men.

Meg [03:20:04] They.

Jess [03:20:04] They didn't do anything.

John Dehlin [03:20:05] Yeah.

Jess [03:20:06] Like, doctrinally, I can understand who can say, oh, well, like, if you're acting on your homosexual feelings and that's a sin, doctrinally, I get that outside of doctrine, I'm like, that's terrible. But I guess when I think about it doctrinally, I'm like, okay, well, men get the priesthood, women don't get the priesthood. So if it affects a man who should be able to get the priesthood, then that's not right. Stepping outside of a doctrinal belief, I'm like, yeah, that's dumb. Well, but yeah, with. From a. From a believing perspective, I was just like, yeah, it's just how it is.

Dana [03:20:37] And John, like, I mean, as. Cause I know, you know, you're not a woman. I know, I know. But like, growing up in the church, and I think. I mean, I think it's also very different for maybe like, converts or people. But, like, when you have been conditioned that all of the leaders that you see in the church are men, when you are praying to Heavenly Father, when you are Being shown pictures of ancient male prophets and reading scriptures about male prophets, and there are hardly any women even mentioned in the scriptures. And when you are watching General Conference, and every so often a nice, really, like, nice, sweet lady will get up and wear her pearls and, you know, kind of start to cry a little bit.

Dana [03:21:16] But that's. Those are the women that you see, you know, like, it's like, completely outside of even the realm of possibility. Like, if you don't see it, you can't be it.

Julie [03:21:27] Right?

Dana [03:21:27] I didn't see it, and I just truly didn't even. It didn't even occur to me that it could happen.

John Dehlin [03:21:32] Does a fish know they're swimming in water if that's all they ever know?

Dana [03:21:36] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:21:37] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:38] Conditioning is super powerful. It's a super powerful. And we could ask you some questions right now.

John Dehlin [03:21:45] No, no, I'm asking the questions here.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:47] You know, to show some of your conditioning.

John Dehlin [03:21:50] I control the camera. Hey, cut. Bargies.

Julie [03:21:54] Bye.

John Dehlin [03:21:58] Okay, well, with that. With that awkward segue. All right, so I think it's time to wrap up. And this has been a really important panel. I think we've covered a lot of really important topics. I want to give everyone a chance to kind of give closing thoughts. It can be words of encouragement to people out there that aren't finding, you know, women who aren't finding their path or men. It can be recommendations to the church, how to fix things and make them better. It can be a rant or a screed or whatever you want to say. Y' all can have your. You know, I want to give you each a chance to give some closing thoughts, whatever it is. So, Julie, you want to go first?

Closing Thoughts and Advice for Listeners

Julie [03:22:43] Yeah, I'll go first.

John Dehlin [03:22:44] Okay.

Julie [03:22:45] My biggest takeaway from my experience in YSA is to just let young men and young women know that you have a choice to get married or not. And you have worth and value whichever you choose to do. And if you want children, that's awesome. But I do encourage you to think critically about the risks and the dangers to your body or your partner's body, and whether that's something that you even mental health wise, like, you know, postpartum depression is commonly known, but did you know that postpartum psychosis is also a thing? Did you. You know, there's just so many health risks that come with pregnancy and childbirth.

Julie [03:23:30] And if that's something that, you know, in the theme of Mormon stories, podcast, informed consent. Be aware of what you're taking on. You know, do you have the patience and the mental health to raise a child. And is that something that you truly want, or do you want the ideal of what you've seen in media?

Julie [03:23:56] And if you do want that, that's fantastic, and you'll be. And I think the biggest prerequisite to being a parent is wanting to be a parent, and. But because of the conditioning of, you know, seeing everyone around you getting married and everyone around you having kids and having that being kind of drilled into you, that, you know, you just has to, you know, you have to get it done, and your life doesn't start until it happens. You know, make yourself happy now and make yourself the best partner you can be before you enter a partnership.

John Dehlin [03:24:32] Beautiful. Thanks, Julie, Dana.

Dana [03:24:36] Yeah, this has been awesome. Thanks, John and Margi and all of you guys. It's been great. And I'm just really grateful for the opportunity to get to kind of tell part of my story and to hear everybody else's experiences. I think it's so powerful and so important.

Dana [03:24:55] Especially as we just talked about, women are largely silenced. We're kind of put into a box, right. And it's a very, you know, small box that we have to conform to. And I just want to, like, you know, it's been eight years since I left the church, and it's been such a journey. And I.

Dana [03:25:14] I just want to say, like, to myself, like, back then, eight years ago, and, you know, at so many points in my life, that. And to anybody, like, you are so much more brave than you think that you are, and you are going to experience so many things that you never, ever thought that you would or should or could, and you're gonna get through the other side. And life is so great and so wonderful, and there's so much happiness and joy throughout all of the hard that is inevitably going to be there. And it's okay to do it without the confines. And in fact, like, you should, right?

Dana [03:25:52] You should get out there and live your life and be who you need to be and be authentic to yourself. And just to close, I have to bring out my scriptures again. The words of Glennon Doyle. This was chapter four, verse. Yeah, yeah.

Dana [03:26:08] But she. I mean, yeah, she's just amazing. And this was something when I, you know, some hard things that I've gone through. This is kind of a quote that stuck to me. But she says, this is the most revolutionary thing a woman can do. The next precise thing, one thing at a time, without asking permission or offering explanation. No one else in the world knows what I should do. And I love that. Like, you know, unapologetic no permission, no explanation. You just be you. Do you? Because that's how you're going to be the happiest.

John Dehlin [03:26:42] Beautiful. Thanks, Dana. Meg.

Meg [03:26:46] So I think I'd like to talk to the younger Meg and say, fundamentally, you're a good person. Your worth doesn't come from belief. It doesn't come from disbelief. It just exists because you're human and having a different experience and forging your own path and choosing, actually choosing is beautiful parts of life. Also, you live on a spinning rock in space. Do not get an A in church because you can't.

John Dehlin [03:27:10] Wait, say that again. Do not what?

Meg [03:27:11] Do not get an A in church. You can't. You're not going to need it.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:14] No, that's right.

John Dehlin [03:27:15] Your grade.

Meg [03:27:17] Your grade. It's not your gpa.

Julie [03:27:18] It's D's get degrees.

Dana [03:27:20] D's get degrees in life.

Meg [03:27:23] Well, you know, we're still testing that out, John.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:27] Love that.

John Dehlin [03:27:28] Love that. Meg. Jess.

Jess [03:27:30] Yeah. So, first of all, I would say, don't settle. The guy I almost married found his person two weeks after we broke up. So you never know. But I'm glad that he didn't settle, and I'm hope that he's happy with his wife, and I'm glad that I didn't settle, and I will not settle.

Jess [03:27:55] I also want to echo the sentiment that you don't need to get married. I really don't. It is not a prerequisite for a happy and successful life. I think the most important thing is just human connection. And if that happens to be romantic and if it, you know, progresses to the level where marriage makes sense and you're confident in it, then do it, and that's great. And I think that adds to a happy life. But I am currently deconstructing the idea that I need to get married in order to be happy and successful.

Jess [03:28:33] I recently, when I was in Young Women's, we put together a temple time capsule for us to open when we got engaged. And I haven't touched it. But the other day I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna open it. It doesn't matter. You know, I'm not gonna have it sitting there on the shelf telling me, you still haven't gotten married. So I opened it up. It was very silly.

Jess [03:29:00] And I realized I was a very different person back then than I am today. And I will continue to change and evolve and grow, and I need the flexibility to do that. I think there are a lot of things I would change about the issues with dating and sexuality. In the church in ysa.

Jess [03:29:28] But a lot of them come from the law of chastity. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. I do have a very niche suggestion. It is for BYU specifically. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:29:42] Yeah, bring it.

Jess [03:29:44] So Shane Reese is the new president and they do this thing called date night with the Reese's where basically all of campus is just, you can come and have a date night. And I don't know, they have like treats and different events going on.

Jess [03:29:58] I would say that there is a much more effective way to help people get married. And I think that is to pay your student employees more. Because dating takes time and money. And I have found that me and a lot of the people I know are just spending all of our time working because we work for pennies compared to what we. What we know the church has that they could be offering.

Jess [03:30:33] I don't have time to go on dates. I don't have time to build a meaningful relationship because I'm trying to pay rent and get my basic needs met. So I think that's something that they could do that could improve the way that people, at least at byu date

John Dehlin [03:30:52] or subsidize the living expenses.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:56] Students more.

Jess [03:30:56] Yeah. Or.

Julie [03:30:57] Yeah.

Jess [03:30:57] Or I'm sure they could expand it to some kind of program, you know, even outside of byu. But that's. That is a solid suggestion that I think is feasible. We'll see if it ever happens. Right?

John Dehlin [03:31:11] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:12] Yeah.

Jess [03:31:12] So that's great.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:13] We celebrate you all. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:31:17] And I'll just say organizing these panels takes a ton of work because you review the applications of dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of people. So, Margi, you were the one that put this together. I want to thank you for making this happen. This would not have happened without you.

Julie [03:31:37] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [03:31:38] And also a shout out to Bishop Bowe because Bishop Bowe has been our back channel support for these panels ever since he appeared on the Bishop's panel. So thanks, Bishop Bo. We love you as well. I hope he's okay us mentioning his name. I didn't get consent. He's giving me the thumbs up given. Thanks, Bishop Bo. Margi, any final words?

Margi Dehlin [03:32:00] Just that I really have appreciated this panel so much and just. Yeah. Really celebrate you each. It's been a pleasure just getting to know the pieces that we have today.

John Dehlin [03:32:14] Okay, final bullet question. One word answer.

Jess [03:32:17] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [03:32:18] Did you dodge a bullet not marrying in the temple to your soulmate Dana?

Dana [03:32:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:32:26] Yes. For sure.

Dana [03:32:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:32:28] Okay. Julie.

Dana [03:32:28] Many bullets Were dodged.

John Dehlin [03:32:30] Yeah.

Julie [03:32:30] Yes. Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [03:32:32] Julie. Yes, Meg.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:34] Yes.

Meg [03:32:35] I'm in love right now with a

John Dehlin [03:32:36] non nevermore member, not with a never member.

Jess [03:32:39] How about that?

Meg [03:32:40] Very happy with him.

John Dehlin [03:32:41] Does he sacrifice goats to Beelzebub?

Meg [03:32:45] He doesn't, actually, which is very nice.

John Dehlin [03:32:47] He's just a nice guy.

Meg [03:32:48] Yeah. Fundamentally a very good person because he chooses to be, not because the religion tells him to be.

John Dehlin [03:32:53] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:54] It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:32:55] And, Jess, you can plead the fifth because you're at byu.

Jess [03:32:57] Well, I mean, I take issue with parts of your question, but because the closest I've ever come to a soulmate, I would not have married him in the temple.

John Dehlin [03:33:04] So nice.

Jess [03:33:06] Even while I was a believing mom,

John Dehlin [03:33:08] you never came close.

Jess [03:33:09] So I think soulmate is maybe. Do I think I dodged a bullet with people that I would have married in the temple? Yes. But soulmate is a.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:19] And, hey, we could explore the idea of a soulmate.

John Dehlin [03:33:21] Yeah.

Jess [03:33:21] Yeah. I don't think we have time.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:24] Another day, we'll bring you back.

John Dehlin [03:33:27] Okay. Okay. Final. Final question. Are you. Do you feel like you're happier and healthier out of the church, Julie, than you were in the church?

Julie [03:33:34] So much happier, really. Plan of happiness made me miserable.

John Dehlin [03:33:37] It's not counterfeit happiness.

Julie [03:33:39] Yeah, well, I mean, it was just. It was like. Like you kept. Like. It's like I kept watering a garden that wasn't growing. Like, it was just wasted water.

John Dehlin [03:33:55] Wow. Dana.

Dana [03:33:57] I would say, yes, definitely, I'm happier. And, yes, like, life has challenges, like I said. And I think people sometimes like to attribute that to your status in or out of the church, but I know that that is not true and that the challenges that I've had would have been so much harder had I still been in the church.

John Dehlin [03:34:20] Meg.

Meg [03:34:21] Yes. I've never been a truer person to who I am, and still lots of challenges. Still lots of things I'm working through, but I get to choose them now.

John Dehlin [03:34:29] Yeah. And, Jess, you're under an ecclesiastical endorsement, I will say.

Jess [03:34:35] We'll see what happens. But I do believe that I'm getting happier and happier every day.

John Dehlin [03:34:40] All right, well said. All right, well, panel, thank you so much. Julie, Dana, Meg and Jess, thanks so much for joining us on Mormon Stories. Y' all have, with excellence, carried on the tradition of the Mormon Stories panels. So thank you all.

Jess [03:34:58] You all get A's.

John Dehlin [03:35:01] Yeah, Meg, sure.

Dana [03:35:02] Meg.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:03] I know.

John Dehlin [03:35:03] Meg, you get eggs up, you get Mormon Stories. No, thank you so much. Thanks, Margi. It's great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:12] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [03:35:13] And thanks for joining us today. On Mormon Stories podcast. I keep looking at the wrong camera. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. This has been great. We couldn't do this without your financial support. So thanks to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories to make it possible. We also lose donors all the time and stuff happens. So if you value this content and want to see it continue, please become a monthly donor. MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll be able to keep doing this sort of stuff.

John Dehlin [03:35:48] We also want to say we're always looking for cool people to interview. Interesting stories, new stories, compelling storytellers. And we can't accept every applicant, but we're always looking like Survivor. We're always looking for new applicants. And just go to MormonStories.org, click on the button to apply, and we'd love to consider your application to be on Mormon Stories. And I mean, it's not so bad, right? It's not terrible. You got a dinner out of this, right?

Meg [03:36:19] I give you an A, John.

John Dehlin [03:36:20] Yeah, I get an A. I'll get

Dana [03:36:22] an A. Yeah, I'll give you an A. Margi, you too.

Meg [03:36:25] Actually, Margi gets an A plus

John Dehlin [03:36:28] reverse patriarchy. It's still hate, you know?

Julie [03:36:32] Yeah.

Dana [03:36:33] Yeah. We feel sorry for you, John.

John Dehlin [03:36:37] Yeah. So, anyway, be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks for joining us today, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Jess [03:36:46] Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.