Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1524

Carah Burrell [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:05] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. The date is. Carah, what's the date?

Carah Burrell [00:00:14] The 26th is the day after Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] 26th.

Austin Archer [00:00:17] Did you forget, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:00:19] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Merry day after Christmas. How are you?

Carah Burrell [00:00:21] The eggnog gave you brain fog.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] I know, I know. We're trying to do too many things at once. Anyway, it's December 26, 2020, one day after Christmas. And we are super excited for today's special guest. He is kind of semi Internet famous. But before we introduce him, Carah, how was Christmas?

Carah Burrell [00:00:43] It was great. My kids all got along. And that's a Christmas miracle in and of itself.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] That's a Christmas miracle.

Carah Burrell [00:00:48] I have three children and they are kind of hellions. And on Christmas, they were perfect angels because they got all their presents and they played nicely. So how's your Christmas, John?

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Super great. Yeah. Lots of kids around and got a new shirt and you got a Christmas vest or something?

Carah Burrell [00:01:05] John walked in with a vest, and I said, only one of us can be wearing a vest today.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] So I took my vest off and Carah's wearing a Christmas vest.

Carah Burrell [00:01:13] Yeah, that's how I run it. Mormon Stories. I just, like, we dictate all the times that we're starting the guests and everything down to the vests. Guest invests. That's my department.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] I love it. All right, well, it's between Christmas and New Year's, and we should be enjoying our families, but instead we have someone who's kind of Internet famous with us today. His name is Austin Archer. Austin, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Meet Austin Archer: Actor, Singer, and Creator

Austin Archer [00:01:41] Oh, my God, I can't believe I'm here. This is crazy. This is wild.

Carah Burrell [00:01:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] And just in the few minutes we've been talking, we have more connections than I thought, and that's very Mormon. But a lot of people, A lot of people know you and are crazy about your TikTok channel and your content. And then there's probably going to be some people that don't. So how would you introduce yourself? Just so that people can know kind of who you are and what you do, and then we'll. We'll obviously jump into your story.

Austin Archer [00:02:06] Yeah, I'm an actor and singer, songwriter, and just kind of general, overall creative guy. Got a podcast called People Pleaser with Austin Archer, and I just started doing content during the Pandemic. More. I was always making videos on the Internet, but Pandemic, I decided I'm gonna do it, really ramp it up, because I was at home furloughed for my job and it became my full time gig. So that's what I do. You can find me at your pal, underscore, Austin on Instagram, Twitter or TikTok and check out what I'm doing. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] And what, what type of content do you create on those channels?

Austin Archer [00:02:40] Yeah, you know, they always tell you that you, you gotta have a niche, you gotta have a brand and stick to it. And my brand is kind of all over the place. So sometimes it's direct address me talking about an idea that I like. Sometimes it's me doing skits, sometimes it's music videos where I do original songs and I, I'm dancing and wearing different outfits and having cool lighting and so I kind of run the gamut on my channel. Sometimes it's really serious and I'm like really, really honest and vulnerable and off the cuff. Sometimes it's me, you know, I don't really have like the niche. There's a lot of channels on Tick Tock where it's like this guy does this and I think people mostly know me because of the. So probably though.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Yeah, yeah. Like turtleneck and blazer on point, like a laser.

Austin Archer [00:03:26] Yeah. I like when John sings it.

Carah Burrell [00:03:28] Oh, I actually love it more. You're right. Hey, I didn't hear it in my headphones.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] I'm your boss, so you have to.

Carah Burrell [00:03:34] Yeah, I actually did like it a lot. Yeah. And then you have a quite a viral song. I think it's gone viral. Like I've seen it multiple times. The one about like pronouns.

Austin Archer [00:03:44] Congratulations, congratulations, congratulations.

Carah Burrell [00:03:47] That's like a trending sound too.

Austin Archer [00:03:49] You know. I think sometimes you find stuff that everyone knows they can repurpose because the line in the song is congratulations. That was one of the stupidest things that I've ever seen anybody post on the Internet before because congratulations. That was one of the stupidest things that I've ever seen anybody post on the Internet before. And I think that line right there is just very repurpose, full repurposable. People can like, you know, someone makes a stupid comment on a Twitter thread and they drop that one in there. Boom. So yeah, it's very memeable.

Carah Burrell [00:04:22] Yeah. As somebody who has to deal with a lot of trolls and people saying dumb things to me on the Internet, you know, you're just looking for favoriting sounds of like, next time I get a dumb comment, I'm going to throw that up. Reply to comment with just that song.

Austin Archer [00:04:34] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:04:34] So good. And it's well produced too.

Austin Archer [00:04:37] Oh, thank you. You know, that's kind of the key Is like, if I want people to know that I make real music and they can find my actual albums on Spotify and Apple Music, the. The fake fun songs that I make on TikTok also have to sound like good music. So people go like, this is actually a good song. And it's like, well, that's because I actually. I actually do that. So you can.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] Okay, so you actually have albums on Spotify.

Austin Archer [00:04:57] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Okay. So we need to include all that. Good. And then one thing that's interesting about you. So you've got your own Mormon story that we're going to dive into, but a lot of your. So you've got like, how many Followers Just on TikTok?

Austin Archer [00:05:10] Not to embarrass you, it's 955,000, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] So like, almost a million followers. I don't care. I don't think we've ever, never had someone with that following, have we, on Mormon stories?

Carah Burrell [00:05:20] No, maybe not.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Yeah, but. But I would say the majority of your followers have no idea that you were ever Mormon. Is that fair to say?

Austin Archer [00:05:28] Yeah, sure. They find out all the time. I'll be doing live streams all the time. And people will ask because they hear that I'm from Utah. And so they find out in little, little bits. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] And I had one or two listeners reach out to me and say, well, this dude Austin is a ex Mormon. You should get him on. So shout out to those. Those listeners and. And viewers, because we wouldn't have been able to do this without you. Sorry I don't have your name handy, but. But thanks.

Austin Archer [00:05:52] And the content's not specifically ex Mormon content too, so it's like a lot. I don't talk about it a lot, so, you know, but it's not even

John Dehlin [00:05:58] super about religion per se.

Austin Archer [00:05:59] Not really. It comes up very sparingly in what I talk about.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] But.

Austin Archer [00:06:04] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] But today. So we asked you to kind of just do an outline because I. I know anything about your personal life other than now I know that you are brothers with Adam Archer, who was the successor to John Larsen's Mormon Expression podcast for a season. That's a fun. So shout out to Adam. Hey, Adam.

Austin Archer [00:06:22] Hey, Adam.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] But other than that, it was really powerful to read your outline and just to give people a preview of what we're going to talk about today. It's not just about being super famous. It's also you. You were raised Mormon. At some point you left the church. Not to give away the ending, but then as a post Mormon, this is in the Thumbnail. So we're not giving too much away. As a post Mormon, you experimented with alcohol. And I was. It was, you know, moving for me to just read in the outline that you actually became an alcoholic and went to Alcoholics Anonymous and you became sober and you're how many years sober now?

Austin Archer [00:07:03] 3 1/2 years sober.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] That's a freaking huge accomplishment. So we. We've talked about that before on Mormon stories, but never with the high quality audio, the high quality video. Yeah. And never in such an intimate way. So it's a topic we've covered, but never, like, we're going to cover it today. And I know that's something post Mormons need to guard against, maybe having that happen to them. And then there's going to be post Mormons who have had that happen to them.

Austin Archer [00:07:30] And we don't have a good education on it. We don't know what it's all about. You know, we don't know what we're doing. We just go out there and we just start drinking. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] So maybe we'll talk about pitfalls, how that can happen, how to avoid that happening, and then if it does happen, how one person found their way through all that.

Austin Archer [00:07:48] Yeah, absolutely. Love to talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Care. Anything else?

Carah Burrell [00:07:51] Yeah. And then anyone who's watching on YouTube or Facebook also has stars. But YouTube's probably the best way if you're tuning in right now. And there's a little button at the bottom with the dollar sign on it. That's the Super Chat button. So I will incorporate as many comments and questions that you have for Austin throughout this live stream. And then if you want to donate money to the podcast, a great way to do that. We're actually, like, labeled as a nonprofit on YouTube now, so YouTube doesn't take any cut of your Super Chats anymore, I believe. Yeah. So.

Austin Archer [00:08:21] Oh, I got to get on that.

Carah Burrell [00:08:22] Yeah. Start a nonprofit. So if you want to put in some money into the Super Chat, that will help us see your comment, highlight it. And we just appreciate everyone for tuning in. We kind of did this live stream spur of the moment, but we figured day after Christmas, you're just digesting leftovers and just want to tune into a really fun live stream. So join us, everybody. It's gonna be really fun. I'm excited. So excited. Austin, you're in town. We got to do this, so.

Austin Archer [00:08:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Yeah. And I guess if we want to give a rating, we'll give this one a PG13 rating. We don't expect any super hardcore stuff, but there may Be a swear word here and there. And so just.

Austin Archer [00:09:01] I like the word frig. So maybe I'll just say frig.

Carah Burrell [00:09:04] Yeah, my friggin ears.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Yeah, no, no, we're, we're okay with, we're okay with people just communicating how they're comfortable. We just like, yeah, we like informed consent. So we want our audience to know. So absolutely nothing hardcore today. No expected John Larsen F bomb rants that we know of.

Carah Burrell [00:09:22] But nobody can out F bomb my Mormon Stories interview, though. I was like up to 40 on that one.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] So we're going for PG 13. It should be safe for all viewers and even mature children. So. All right.

Growing Up Mormon in Utah

Austin Archer [00:09:35] All righty.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] All right. So, Austin Archer, where does your Mormon story begin?

Austin Archer [00:09:40] Sandy, Utah. Yeah, you know, I mean, I was born in, in a house that I was until I was about five, five or six years old. But then we moved to this house where I was raised in, where I, that's kind of my childhood, but it was in the Willow Creek area. Willow Creek Country Club, that whole area. We were The Willow Creek 4th Ward

John Dehlin [00:09:59] and Packer used to live. Is that up?

Austin Archer [00:10:02] Geez, I don't know. I don't know. I, I maybe. I don't know though.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] What are the coordinates?

Austin Archer [00:10:07] It's, it's like super east, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's. Yeah, we had like the runoff from Little Cottonwood Canyon coming back through our backyard. Like the creek was coming through.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] That's where both Boyd K. Packer kind of raised his family and also where Grant Palmer lived. Does that name anything?

Austin Archer [00:10:22] Yeah, Grant Palmer. Yeah, he was in our ward.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Okay. Oh, okay. So, yeah, when, when I interviewed Grant Palmer, I went to his house and I interviewed him in Willow Creek. So I know just the area.

Austin Archer [00:10:32] Yeah, I remember growing up, that was a big thing. It was like everyone was like, really talking about Grant Palmer and like this big. And I remember as a kid being like, what did he do? And they were just like, he wrote a book. He can't write books like that.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Okay, I want to get, I want to cover that in the timeline. It's true. I want to cover that in your timeline. So, okay, so Willow Creek.

Austin Archer [00:10:51] So Willow Creek. Yeah. And I, I, I loved being Mormon. I loved growing up. LDS is the only thing I really knew was you grow up in Utah, and as your audience is well aware, it's just sort of, you don't have a frame of reference outside of that. So all of my friends were lds. I talk about this all the time. We talked a little bit about aa, but it's Like, I talk about this all the time in AA meetings that I'm like, no, what? Nobody in my neighborhood drank alcohol. Everyone in my neighborhood was Mormon. Everybody's parents were Mormon, Everybody's aunts and uncles were Mormon, everybody's cousins were Mormon.

Austin Archer [00:11:25] So like, it just wasn't a thing. And then if someone was having a problem with it, if there was someone's teenage kid who was doing it, it was. Everyone knew about it, that so and so's teenager got caught drinking beer or something, you know, But I, I loved being lds and I had a bunch of good LDS friends and.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Yeah. How many, how many siblings?

Austin Archer [00:11:45] Three older siblings. I'm the youngest of four. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] What did your parents. Were your parents kind of pioneer stock and.

Austin Archer [00:11:52] Yeah, you know, we had ancestors in the Martin handcart company and, and stuff like that and people. Yeah, we. It goes back, you know, we're not first generation. It go. It went back deep. Grandparents were LDS and their parents were. And yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] So is there anything you are comfortable sharing about, like what type of Mormon home you grew up in? Cause there's probably shades of orthodoxy.

Austin Archer [00:12:15] Sure. I can tell you this. We went to church every week and I went to Mutual and young Men's and all that stuff. But all my friends grew up in homes where they couldn't watch the Simpsons and they couldn't watch pg13 movies without permission and R was off the table. And like, I tell this to my parents all the time. I'm like, you shouldn't be surprised that I talk the way I talk and that I have some of the views that I have because you guys let me watch anything like my. And, and it's just I showed a very strong affinity from a young age that I wanted to be an actor and that I wanted to make movies and that I wanted to do that with my life.

Austin Archer [00:12:49] And so anytime my parents saw a good movie that was rated R that had really good acting or really good writing in it, they'd be like, we're gonna show you this movie. But just because we want you to watch the actors in this movie, we want you to. So, like, I remember seeing Goodwill hunting in the theaters and, and my mom was like, you just gotta see the acting in this movie. And that movie's like, I don't think there's a line in the movie that doesn't have the F word in it. I was like 8 years old, but I loved it. I just was blown away by it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] That is one of my favorite movies of all time. Robin Williams, Matt Damon Ben Affleck.

Austin Archer [00:13:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Brilliant script. Didn't they win the Academy Award?

Austin Archer [00:13:22] Oh, yeah, yeah. That's Best original Screenplay.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] And Robin. It's got to be one of. Robin Williams, one of his greatest.

Austin Archer [00:13:28] It's one of his most subdued. It's one of his only times where he. He does a role without launching into. Not that I don't like the Robin Williams ness of it all, the. The impressions, the John Wayne, you know, like. But he really is just a guy. He's just this kind of sad guy, and he's.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] He's not on some type of weird character.

Austin Archer [00:13:47] It feels like he's actually being like himself, like who he would really be if you actually got to meet him and sit down with him.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] He had a dark side, obviously.

Austin Archer [00:13:53] Yeah, obviously. You know.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] So what were. What were some of your early creative inspirations that made you think that you might want to be an actor or a media personality as a kid?

Austin Archer [00:14:07] Yeah, it's so weird.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Where'd you get that idea?

Austin Archer [00:14:09] You know, I say this all the time that I feel incredibly lucky that I've always known what I wanted to do with my life. I think that it's really hard for people to get into adulthood or early adulthood. And even there are people who are in their 30s and 40s and even 50s who are like. I don't know if I ever figured out what I like most. What's the thing that makes me.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] Me.

Austin Archer [00:14:29] What's the thing that makes me feel like I have purp. That makes me feel like a mirror. I've always felt from a very young age, like I knew what I wanted. And I was like my. I was obsessed as a first or second grader with Monet and Van Gogh and like these Renaissance. Well, these romantics painters and these impressionists. And I loved the story of Van Gogh, which is weird for like a 7, 8 year old to be obsessed with the. He's like the quintessential tortured artist.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] You know, Don McLean song sorry night that got you into.

Austin Archer [00:15:02] I love that song. But I. It was more just. I had this art book that was about him that would. That would tell you his story and talk about him, his depression and about. And I was like, this guy gave his entire heart to what he was doing. And what's so impressive, I think, and that I keep appreciating more as I get older is that he was able to transfer pain into really bright and beautiful images. His paintings weren't paintings of despair. They don't. They don't look like. Outside of a few Maybe they don't look as tortured. Yeah, they don't look like that. But what he is doing is he's painting with broken brushes that have.

Austin Archer [00:15:40] That are frayed at the ends and with materials that created that really thick stroke on the page so that the oil sort of raised off of the page and everything looks messy, and he can't get the image very fine. And I don't even know if that was his methodology of expressing what was going on inside or if it was just, I can't afford better instruments than this. This is the best I have, is these brushes that are all broken. And that says something, too, about what he's working with. And the best I can get. The closest I can get it, is these broad strokes that are really messy.

Austin Archer [00:16:12] But he's always trying to bring a ton of color to the palette. And I think he, like, wants. He wants the person looking at it to feel good when they look at it, which is really interesting because he so rarely felt good, you know, But I think he did feel good when he was painting. I think that when he was painting, he felt like he was attached to his purpose and like, he was in a state of flow, and he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. And so that's why I say I feel really lucky to have always known that, because there's never been a question of what I'm.

Austin Archer [00:16:42] What I want to do with my life and what I'm supposed to do with my life, and I don't have to really worry about that. I have people ask me all the time, do you think you should do something else that makes more money? And I say, sure, but I'm not gonna, because this is what it's always been, so.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Yeah, well, that's kind of young. To be, like. To be really focusing on a sophisticated artist like Van Gogh is like, second grade. So. Tell us more. I want to hear more about your creative influences.

Austin Archer [00:17:09] Oh, man. You know, my parents were so supportive.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] What was their career, your parents?

Austin Archer [00:17:13] My dad is. He. He ran a really successful office supply business where they would do. They. You know, they sold copiers and fax machines and things like that. They were a supplier for people who needed to fill their office space with. With computers and office supply equipment and stuff like that. And he built that from the ground up with a few partners and built it into a very six. It was one of the most. You know, it was, like, them and Les Olson company that were, like, the two people selling everybody their copiers and printers and stuff like that. And he was able to build it up and sell it for a good amount and did well with that.

Austin Archer [00:17:51] And my mom was a teacher. She was a substitute teacher, and she would sub at my high school a lot when I was in high school. And she would also. The thing that my mom did is she was the costume designer for every play that I was ever in. And she was always, like, when I was a kid, she would be the music director for the plays that I would do and stuff like that. And she was very involved in what I was doing. She was kind of the consummate stage mom. She was taking me to all my auditions, and she was always there and involved and.

Austin Archer [00:18:23] And getting in people's ear. When I'd be on set shooting something, she'd be letting them know, you know, like, I don't think he's comfortable on his knees. Like, you know, she was. She was not standing back and letting me do it. She was always really involved. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] So what were some of your early performances productions?

Austin Archer [00:18:38] I think the first play I ever did, I did a production of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat with my mom.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Who are you?

Austin Archer [00:18:46] I was in the ensemble. You know, they have the children's choir. They got the children's choir that sings along with everything. And I did that at like, five or six years old. And I think I told my mom, this is what I want to do. And then I went to my mom when I was 9 or 10.

Austin Archer [00:19:01] I'd found an agency in town that was booking kids on commercials and stuff like that. And I said, I want to do commercials. And I said, I wrote these people a letter, and they said, they want to meet me. And my mom got goes, you wrote these people a letter? And I said, yeah, yeah, and they want to meet me. And so they. We went in for an appointment. And at the time, they. This was like, the second year that they were in operation. It's a place called Talent Management Group. They're now, like, the biggest talent agency in the state of Utah. But this was like their second year.

Austin Archer [00:19:28] I've been with them the whole time. And so they just recently celebrated 25 years. And I've been with them for 23 of those years. And, like, it's weird being with them for that long, but.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] So you had an agent since what age?

Austin Archer [00:19:38] Since 9 or 10. Yeah, we started as an agent at 9 or 10. We started doing commercials and stuff. And Touched by an angel was a big TV show in town, and I'd go do Touched by an angel or everwood came to town. I did an episode of Everwood, you know, and so.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Whoa. So you were having artistic credits. It would put you on IMDb by age 8 or 9.

Austin Archer [00:20:00] Yeah, I was making money too. You know, I was doing, like, shows that I was making money at and all my friends, I was doing commercials and things like that. And so my. When I wanted stuff, when I wanted big presents for Christmas, my parents would usually go, you have money for that? Do you want to, like, maybe split the cost of it with us? Like, and I think what they were trying to teach me is like, well, let's see, like, how you've got money. Do you want to try to buy stuff? Is it worth it for you to put money into this? And.

Austin Archer [00:20:26] And it kind of taught me how to. How to what's what, when I should save and what's worth investing into and things like that. And, um. But I was always doing plays. I pretty much have been in a play every. At least one play every year of my life until the pandemic happened. This is the longest period of my life that I haven't been on stage. And it's really weird.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] So as a kid, were you ever like a lead or elitist role? Did you ever do Hail theater?

Austin Archer [00:20:53] No, I always wanted to be. I would go and audition for big roles that had, you know, like, I know, not at Hale. I auditioned for Gavroche in the touring company of Les Mis when I was a kid and I didn't get it and it devastated me. Touring company? Yeah, for the, for the Broadway touring company. And I, I was the wrong size for the costume. For kids, they have to have you be in this right window for like, they're like, we have five of them and they all need to fit the costume. And if you don't, if you're not the right dimensions, at least that's what they told me.

Austin Archer [00:21:22] And maybe I just wasn't good enough to. I. I loved acting from a young age, but I wasn't good at it probably TILL I was 20, you know, but I. I really liked it. And I think as far as, like, teenage actors go, when I was in high school, I was maybe one of the better kids in my department just because I'd been doing it for so long, you know, So I had some of the foundational technical understanding of how to do it and stuff. But I've always. I've just had a lifelong love affair with musicals and musical theater and all that stuff. So I started getting leading roles when I was a teenager, and then when I was in high school. I was kind of the lead in every single show we did. So. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:22:04] Nice. I like that main character vibe that you're always in the center and then you download this Tick Tock app. Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:22:11] Yeah. I think. I think people that went to high school with me are not surprised at all.

Carah Burrell [00:22:15] Right.

Austin Archer [00:22:15] I'm. That I'm doing what I'm doing.

Carah Burrell [00:22:16] Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:22:17] I think they're like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So.

Carah Burrell [00:22:19] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] So, yeah. So I guess I don't want to leave your childhood. I want to hear about every. I mean, a lot of your roles, because I'm in theater a lot. Your favorite shows and all that and things you started in. But. But anything else about your childhood that you really want to mention?

Austin Archer [00:22:35] I don't. It was just kind of. That. It was very. I was. I was obsessed with art. I think I'm such a youngish child. Like, my mom gave me an entire drawer in our kitchen that was a big drawer, you know, like a big, like, beige drawer where you would normally put, like big bowls and stuff like that. She devoted that entire drawer to my art supplies and to. And I. It was just full of sketchbooks, full of my drawings and full of my paintings and stuff and all of my suppl. And I don't think any other of the siblings got their own drawer in the house that was just devoted to their craft.

Austin Archer [00:23:08] And I'm like such a youngish child in that way where they're like, well, we'll let you have your own dedicated drawer with all of your things. And. But yeah, it was just a. I was always, you know, I got it. I got my first camera when I was like 12 or 13. Video camera. And me and my friends were making movies nonstop, just making these tape or digital. It was like when mini DV was first a thing. And so it was. It was a digital cam. It was like digital tape where you would. It was still tape, but it was like the. The transition to digital and we would just.

Austin Archer [00:23:40] Man, we would make stop motion animation movies with our action figures and all kinds of stuff. And it just. I was never not involved in some kind of creative thing.

Early Creative Life and Childhood Memories

John Dehlin [00:23:51] So when we think about your life kind of before age 12, your Mormon life before age 12. Anything else you want to share? Like, did you like Primary songs? Did you like Primary? Did you. Do you have fond memories of, like, your. Your experiences as a Mormon as a. As a child?

Austin Archer [00:24:08] Yeah, for sure. You know, there's a lot of great little milestones in there that you. You look forward to. You look forward to getting that first CTR ring, like, whatever. It's going to be that one of your teachers gives it to you, or I can't remember how you get it, but they either it's gifted to you by parents or, like a teacher, like, hands out seat. You know, there's just. I enjoyed the. I enjoyed performing on stage for Mother's Day and for Christmas with the primary choir and stuff like that. And I. I enjoyed.

Austin Archer [00:24:35] You know what I loved growing up was I love speaking in church, even as a really young kid. And it's because I'm. I. It's because I'm. I'm a talker. And I. I saw other kids who would do the thing where they, you know, their parents wrote their talk, or they would come up and they would read out of the ensign and they'd say, like, in the latest general Conference, President Hinckley said the blah, blah, blah. I really liked getting up there and having something to say. I really wanted to go up and, like, write my own talk and kind of wow the people in the congregation with.

Austin Archer [00:25:06] I was like, I was going to be a preacher. You know, I was. When I was growing up, I was going to be the world's best missionary. I was going to be Elder Price, you know, and change the world with my. With the way that I sold the gospel and the way that I came up with. Came at it. I was always trying to find an angle.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] That was a Book of Mormon musical reference, by the way.

Austin Archer [00:25:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something incredible. I'll do something incredible.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] I want to be the Mormon who changed all of mankind.

Austin Archer [00:25:34] Exactly, exactly. But that was me, and I. I loved speaking in church, and I. I also loved that, like, I would do it, and then adults would come up afterward and they'd go, like, did you write that? And I go, yeah, I wrote that. I wrote that myself, you know, and.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Are you nodding?

Carah Burrell [00:25:50] Carah, we have the same life from a different angle. Like, I'm gonna outsmart all these other dumb bitches over here in the primary program whose parents or the primary president wrote theirs. I'm gonna take my own scratch of paper. I'm gonna write this. People are gonna see, like, no, it wasn't some adult who did this. This was all I need.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] So I'm special. The little I know about your childhood, it feels like you're vibing a lot with what Austin's talking about.

Carah Burrell [00:26:13] Yeah, I've always known what I wanted to do, and I just. I think. I don't want to get all, like, feminist on Anyone or anything. But I think I was just like, I could do all of those things or I could just be a mom. That sounds easy. I'll just do that one. Don't nobody look at me. I'm fine. I'll just. I'll be in the corner over here being a nice stay at home mom.

Austin Archer [00:26:28] I think that's the experience that most of the women that I was doing it with growing up though, all the girls that like, I was doing plays with and stuff, especially the ones that were really, really good at it, that I would be like, you need to do this. They would say, they'd be like, yeah, maybe. Or like, I might just get married. And I'd be like, oh, that bums me out. Like, you should do it. But also, the industry is hard for everyone. And it's extra hard on women.

Carah Burrell [00:26:47] Exactly.

Austin Archer [00:26:47] And it's extra hard on, like, yeah, like white women. And just being, you know, going out there and trying to be another ingenue.

Carah Burrell [00:26:55] Yeah, yeah. Like that sounds hard and rewarding and like, at least I could make my own path and like my. My pitfalls and my successes could be like something I chose. But it wasn't until I started doing TikTok and Mormon stories here in this last year, I was like, oh, yeah, I've absolutely known I wanted to do all this since I was in kindergarten that like, I wanted to say something. I wanted to make people laugh. Yeah, I just kind of stuffed it down.

Austin Archer [00:27:17] Yeah, I should walk that. I said white women. And it's like, not that I'm like, white women are the most. Not at all.

Carah Burrell [00:27:23] Sorry.

Austin Archer [00:27:23] No, it's just that it's the, it's the amount of competition actually, that exists in the industry for, for women when they're going out. It's just like, especially early on, it's just like. And I think a lot of guys, at least when I was younger too, it was like, if you're any good at all, you're the lead, you know, and then the women would be like, all really good. And it would be really competitive. And only there's only like one good part in the show for them. But there's like four really good lead guy roles. And if you're even competent at all, if you're just willing to be in the play, you've got a shot to be the lead.

Carah Burrell [00:27:56] There's nothing more depressing than being a girl who loves to act but you can't sing.

Austin Archer [00:27:59] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:28:00] Growing up. And there's what I think, Austin, what you're trying to say Is like, this is a dime a dozen. Just being like a white girl in Utah. Who wants to be in plays. Yeah, we got a whole truck full of.

Austin Archer [00:28:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And all. And also, who's doing plays. Plays in Utah when you're growing up, like, nobody's doing straight plays. That's. It's musicals. So if. Yeah, if you're not a dancer singer and you just want to be an actor, it's like. Well, back to the ensemble with you.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Yeah. Like I mentioned Hill Theater. Like, for those of you who don't know or haven't been to Utah, there's this thing called the Hale Musical Theater, which has. There's one in, you know, Sandy. Right. Draper area. There's one in Orem. But it's. I don't know if it's Broadway quality theater, but it's super close.

Austin Archer [00:28:40] It's like one of the most state of the art spaces in the country. It is one of the most top notch facilities in the country, which is also why I have a personal beef with it. But we don't need to go into that because.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] Oh, well, let's get it. Let's get into that in the end.

Austin Archer [00:28:56] Yeah, sure, we can.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] Yeah, I guess I want to throw a bone sometimes. People might. Some people might feel like we're a little bit hard on the church here on Mormon Stories. I want to throw the church a bone. If you, if you. There was a PBS documentary called the Mormons came out 10 or 15 years ago. And one of the things that talked about is how Brigham Young loved, like singing and dancing and how he really encouraged that. And I just want, you know, my mom. People may not know this. This is a shout out to my mom. And there's a Mormon Stories episode about my mom that maybe we can include in the show notes.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] But my mom was always putting on a musical. My entire upbringing growing up, because she grew up in Franklin Boy Franklin, Preston, Idaho, and she learned to love music and acting and theater. And so that was so much she. They put on Saturday's Warrior. When I was a kid growing up, like, like the theater, I think Mormonism has done a good job of encouraging the performing arts. And that's why. So you think you can dance and the Voice and in American Idol, isn't it kind of why there have been so many Mormons?

Austin Archer [00:29:56] BYU turns out Broadway talent. They turn out people that go and work on Broadway all the time. BYU is a. Is a little Broadway factory like, like BYU and just Mormons in general turn out really good showbiz. People who are really talented and like, it's a. It's a big thing here. And so, yeah, I mean, I grew up. We had an intercom system that went through our entire house that you could play music and it would go to every speaker in every room in the house. And we would have. On Saturdays we would clean the house and everyone had chores, like you're assigned to the bathroom or whatever. And my parents would blast Les Mis or Miss Saigon or Cats or like they would blast these cast albums through the house. The Secret Garden and we would just listen. So we grew up listening to these musicals and. Yeah,

Carah Burrell [00:30:42] sorry, you're like the 21st century version of that. My family did the exact same thing, but we had to play our piano. So we were like living at the turn of the century. It was like this old timey music.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah. So, I mean, it's fair to give a shout out to Mormonism that it's done a good job encouraging performing arts. True.

Austin Archer [00:31:00] I say that Utah county, like, is like. I mean, I. When I was coming up in Salt Lake, being an actor and a musician and stuff, I was living in punk houses and stuff. But the people, the people who are doing it down in Utah county and the Mormon people, they were really serious about it. And I think maybe part of that is because there's not a lot of like drugs or things that get in the way of their productivity. But the, the, the Utah county bands, you have, you know, really popular bands like you've talked to Tyler Glenn, Neon Trees and like the Used came out of Utah county. And then like Brandon Flowers from Nephi, Utah, you know.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Totally. And Imagine Dragons.

Austin Archer [00:31:34] Yeah. You know, and they're. They're really.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] They're Vegas, but they're Mormon and they

Austin Archer [00:31:38] take it really seriously, you know.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] Well, actually, Wayne Sermon is from American Fork. What is the Cavemen? Is that the. It's. It's a high school. The Cavemen down. Anyway.

Austin Archer [00:31:52] Oh, geez, I don't know.

Carah Burrell [00:31:54] Anyway, plenty of American Fork is the caveman. Is that what you're trying to say?

John Dehlin [00:31:58] One of those.

Austin Archer [00:31:58] There is a high school that is the Caveman. Yeah, I love it.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Anyway, yeah, there's Mormonism, the Imagine Dragons, Neon trees, the Killers. So many. I also just want to add. Care if you'll add this to the show notes listeners, after you watch this amazing interview. The. One of the top 10 best interviews of all time of Mormon stories is an interview with Clark Johnson. Clark Johnson, speaking of the Book of Mormon musical, was in the original cast of the Book of Mormon Musical.

Austin Archer [00:32:26] I've seen this interview, and it's fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] It's one of my favorites. So it's a great example of what we're talking about.

Austin Archer [00:32:31] Well, ironically enough, Trey Parker and Matt Stone and Richard Rodriguez, or is that his name? They wrote the music. They wrote one of the best shows ever for Mormon musical theater people to go be in, because it really is so tailored to, like, the kind of guys that get turned out of BYU and the kind of talent that comes out of ut. When I moved to New York, I was like, if I don't get to be in this show, then I'll feel very robbed. I didn't get to be in the show, but ironically, with their very crass satirical musical, the Book of Mormon, they wrote a great show for Mormon talent to go be in. I mean, it's. It's like, very suited to the skill set that comes out of this place.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] Yeah, well, well, shout out to Mormon Church. One thing you do right is create a lot of good performing artists.

Austin Archer [00:33:18] The weird. I will say this, I don't want to take away from your shout out, because. Shout out for sure. But the weird thing is that they. They raise these kids that love musical theater, that love singing, that love performing, and then when they become adults, they're like, but don't do it. It's a really bad career that's not very lucrative, and you should go get a job doing something else. And it's like, well, why'd you teach me to be in love with this? Like, you know, so there is a lot of, like, once you're grown up, it's just a hobby that you shouldn't actually pursue as a career.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] Although the church was super encouraging. The Osmonds, like, the Osmonds were like, yeah, tied with the church.

Austin Archer [00:33:48] Oh, if you can be famous. If you can be David Archuleta, like, oh, yeah, they'll. They'll boost that up. If you can get a big audience, then for sure, you know, it sounds

Carah Burrell [00:33:58] like what you're saying is, like, the culture of the church encourages, like, go to school, get as much education as you can, get the highest paying job, work for the man. Like, yeah, start your own business or something where you can have as many babies as possible.

Austin Archer [00:34:09] But being a teenager is the time to be in love with theater. And then maybe as an adult, you can do it on the side as a hobby. I have a lot of friends who work at the Hail very frequently and, like, it is just sort of this side thing that they do when they can fit it in, which Is hard because it's a big commitment to be in one of those shows. It.

Carah Burrell [00:34:24] It's.

Austin Archer [00:34:24] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] And you don't get paid a ton of money. Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:34:27] Which is part of my gripe. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Oh, yeah. Okay. So you love theater. You. And you were. As far as a Mormon boy goes, you were into it. You're writing your own talks. Love to get up and bear your testimony. Any favorite primary songs

Austin Archer [00:34:45] I like. I always liked. I can't even think of what. How it goes now. I. I think it was. Well, primary songs. No. I can't remember the names of them. I remember the melodies that I liked. I'll prepare myself. That's. That's

Carah Burrell [00:35:05] my.

Austin Archer [00:35:06] I like the melody.

John Dehlin [00:35:07] I love to see the temple.

Austin Archer [00:35:09] Yeah. But. So I like the melodies. The ones that I started really falling in love with the hymns when I was getting a little bit older. I really loved, like, oh, Come, Come thou Fount. And if you could hide a collab. I think a lot of people like that one. I think a lot of people like collab because.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] Funky.

Austin Archer [00:35:28] Well. And it's like just the lyrics are like. It's so psychedelic kind of to like.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] You're just like Mormon Magical Mystery Tour.

Austin Archer [00:35:35] Yeah. You're like. You're like, there's no end to beauty. There is no end to time. There is no end. End to the. Like to existence. There's no end to rhyme or reason. Like, you're going down this hole of, like, thinking about what eternity means and what. And the cosmos and space. And I'm like, I really like that. That the person who wrote that got real into imagining what it really is like to spend eternity on God's tripping on mushrooms. I don't know. But I. Yeah, maybe. But I. I like that one. I always was like, that one made me feel like I like the concept.

Carah Burrell [00:36:08] You know, it was like science fiction but real.

Austin Archer [00:36:10] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Love it.

Austin Archer [00:36:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] Okay. So maybe anything else about your childhood in your family, your personal life that you think will play an important part later in your story that you want to talk about before we go into adolescence?

Mormon Adolescence and Family Orthodoxy

Austin Archer [00:36:25] I guess another thing you know about, like, the. The. The. The how. How orthodox was. My family is like, none of my. We. None of us got our Eagle Scout. Like, we all went to Scouts. And at a certain point, me and all my brothers told our parents, like, there was a certain point for all of us where we went, I don't want to go to Scouts anymore. And they said, okay. And for a lot of my friends, that wasn't an option. Their parents were like, absolutely not. If you want to get your driver's license, if you want to live in this house, if you, you know, if you want, you are going to get.

Austin Archer [00:36:53] Become an Eagle Scout. Like, that was such a big part of the culture growing up. And I. Scouts was sort of optional for us and I liked it. While I liked it as a kid, I liked going with my friends, but I was never into getting merit badges or anything like that. And pretty early on into Boy Scouts, I just said, can I stop going? And they said, sure. And I stopped going, you know, But I liked. I liked camp outs and stuff. I liked going camping with my friends and making tinfoil dinners and having s'. Mores. But I never really liked the scouting part of Scouts. I just liked hanging out with people and going, doing fun activities.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] Yeah, I mean, it sounds like your parents weren't hardcore orthodox Mormons. Not to talk down to their Mormonism, but they're showing you goodwill hunting as a kid. Yeah, they're not these poly Pollyanna purists.

Austin Archer [00:37:43] I think my parents both had parents themselves who were people who were in the church, who loved the church, but who had their own way of doing it. Like my grandfather, for instance, like, was. He smoked. Smoked cigarettes and drank alcohol, but he went to church and he like. And that was a different era where people. There were a lot of people actually who drank and went to church. And it wasn't as taboo. But because of that, and when my dad was being raised, it was still a thing where they were teaching the kids, you shouldn't drink alcohol and stuff. And he had parents who drank coffee and drank alcohol.

Austin Archer [00:38:17] And I think it just created two people who wanted to raise their children in the church, but also wanted to let them know that. That people who do things that we're trying not to do aren't necessarily awful people. And that it's okay for us to have our own way through this, that you don't have to do some of these things in order to be considered good in our eyes. We just want you to keep going to church if you can.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] I mean, what you're spotlighting for me and Carrie, you may remember this is kind of a sentiment from the Warren and Cindy Driggs episode that, like, outside of Utah, all the Mormons are trying to be perfect like they perceive the Utah Mormons to be. And so there's just this hyper sometimes, like in my Katy, Texas ward growing up, this hyper orthodoxy of everybody trying to be the perfect Utah Mormon ward. But in Utah, it's multi generational. And there's a lot of people that are Mormon. They're as much socially Mormon as they are theologically Mormon.

Austin Archer [00:39:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] And then there's a lot of, like, knowing that you have to appear safe, but then having your own internal spiritual and psychological emotional life going on underneath. And Utah maybe has had more variation or even more flavors of orthodoxy or unorthodoxy kind of under the surface along with the whole tradition of Jack Mormons.

Austin Archer [00:39:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] So Utah Mormonism has its, has its own kind of undercurrents, I guess I'm saying. And it sounds like your parents were tapped into that a little bit.

Austin Archer [00:39:52] Well, and you know what's so interesting is like, I never felt like we were made to feel weird or like we were outsiders. If anything, I thought my friends, families were weird. I thought it was weird that, like, they, that it was so strict what they could watch and what they couldn't watch. I was always like, that's weird. But I, I didn't, I never said anything. I, you know, but my, my friends needed permission for everything and I would, I, I remember just telling my parents, hey, I'm going to so and so's house and I jump on my bike and away I went. And I'd be back later that night, you know, but my friends, it's like their par to know where they were at every hour of the day.

Austin Archer [00:40:24] And no, I never got the sense that anyone was looking at my parents like they were doing a bad job because we were, we were active. We went to church every week and we held callings and we participated and we, you know, participated in activities. The only thing that would happen is with like the scouting thing. I had a couple guys in the church who were older, you know, my friends, dads who are scoutmasters who, they couldn't help themselves but corner me every week at church and say, brother Archer, I didn't see it. Scouts on Wednesday. You haven't been coming to Scouts, you know, and it's really important that you and I would just kind of be like this guy, like, get off my back.

Austin Archer [00:41:05] I'll come when I want, you know, but. But I would tell my parents about it and go, oh, so and so got on my case again today and they just go, don't worry about it. You don't have to go if you don't want to go.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] You know, man, it sounds like the perfect set of like, common sense, practical Mormons.

Austin Archer [00:41:23] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Not these super fundamentalist, hardcore, strict, harsh. Which is almost every interview we ever do, isn't that right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:41:32] Like, besides mine, which is literally just the exact same thing as everything Austin's saying right now. Me and Austin different. Everyone else. Yeah. Very orthodox. Like, by the book parents. Who.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] Yours.

Carah Burrell [00:41:43] No, I'm saying I had similar parents in the way that Simpsons. Yeah. Like, my parents didn't care what I was doing very much.

Austin Archer [00:41:47] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:41:47] Like, they let us watch the Simpsons growing up, and if they don't like my bowel mouth now, sorry, mom and dad. You guys let me watch our did movies. You didn't control what I watched.

Austin Archer [00:41:55] It's so funny, too, because the Simpsons compared to what's on TV now is like, oh, yeah, it's so tame.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] It's just South Park. It's south park versus Simpsons.

Austin Archer [00:42:02] Yeah, I. I saw a tweet or freaking.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] What is it? Big mouth.

Austin Archer [00:42:06] Yeah, Big mouth. Or Rick and Morty.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Right.

Austin Archer [00:42:09] I saw a tweet the other day that said. That said it was like Bart Simpson and he's saying, eat my shorts. And then it goes, Mom's in the 90s. This is the worst thing I've ever heard. It's like, it's really not that bad.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] You watch Rick and Morty?

Austin Archer [00:42:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Family Guy.

Carah Burrell [00:42:24] Yeah, Family Guy. All the cartoon ones just kind of went down a health. Or not.

Austin Archer [00:42:27] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:42:28] I mean, uphill, downhill, whatever you want to say. But yeah.

Austin Archer [00:42:31] I recently rewatched, like, the first 15 seasons of the Simpsons on Disney plus, and I was like, man, this show really shaped a lot of my sense of humor. It really.

Carah Burrell [00:42:39] Me too.

Austin Archer [00:42:39] Really crafted. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] Shout out to Conan o'. Brien.

Austin Archer [00:42:42] Oh, I know. Those writers were great.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Harvard, like, Harvard educated.

Austin Archer [00:42:45] And it's. It's. There's jokes that I never got growing up that I go back and I'm

John Dehlin [00:42:49] like, oh, yeah, it's. It's multilayered.

Carah Burrell [00:42:52] You should go back and watch the Jebediah Springfield episode if you haven't watched that since you left the church. Me and my husband watched that again the other day. He obviously don't know I'm talking about Disney plus Jebediah Springfield episodes. Like season seven.

Austin Archer [00:43:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:43:04] About Lisa finding out the truth about the founder of her town is not such a great guy like she thought, and she wants to go tell everyone. It says it's the most. It's the most parallels to Mormonism and Joseph Smith you'll ever see, and you'll watch it with a different lens. So it's fun to go back.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] Let's have that to the show notes.

Carah Burrell [00:43:19] I will. I was thinking of a way I could get paid to watch it and make an episode about it. I was like, all right, I'll do

John Dehlin [00:43:25] a reaction video to it.

Carah Burrell [00:43:26] Yeah. Like, you could literally pause it and be like, have you said the same things, guys?

Austin Archer [00:43:30] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:43:31] Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] All right.

Austin Archer [00:43:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] I love it. So a common sense Mormon upbringing.

Austin Archer [00:43:38] Yeah. They were just people who. Who had a lot of non Mormon friends and family growing up, and they. They had a very open mind about what we experienced and how we went through life. The only thing that we did that was really by the book was we were at church every week, you know, and we held callings and I. I went around and passed out the fast offerings around town and on fast Sunday and all that stuff. Or not passed out, collected.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] But yeah, I mean, in some ways it sounds like Mormonism at its best, because I think of a religion that's doing its job is the salt, not the meal. It kind of flavors your life, but it's not your life.

Austin Archer [00:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] You know what I mean? And when people get Mormonism wrong or any religion, it's when the salt becomes the meal, and that's when it's deadly, I think. But if the religion is just like helping to shape your life from the perimeters, I think could be good.

Austin Archer [00:44:30] What religion wants to be and what I. What I would love for so many religions to become and what they. At its core, what it wants to be is it's just people in a community who live near each other coming together once a week to see if there's anything they can do to help each other. How can we help each other out this week? Who needs help? Who's oh, so and so's just got a cancer diagnosis. They, you know, they might need their walk shoveled this week. Let's take care of them. I love that aspect of Mormonism. I love how quick Mormon people are to jump on a service project and to help each other.

Austin Archer [00:44:58] They see so and so is recovering from a heart attack. Let's go over and help them out this week. Let's rake their leaves. Let's like, let's do what we can. And at the core of what it wants to be is it's just a way for a community to be in touch with each other, to be in tune with each other, and to help each other out. I think dogma and specific stories and over identifying with it makes it all muddy.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah, that's a TikTok clip right there.

Austin Archer [00:45:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Adam tagging or Austin's. Austin's vision for a healthy religion.

Carah Burrell [00:45:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely I mean, I used to sit in church and think about like I love being Mormon and I didn't think about the dogma things because that didn't, I didn't internalize it like you just said. Like it wasn't part of my label. My label was how can I be a service oriented Christ like person in this community that serves me and I serve them. So yeah, if you have the right mindset, like that can be a really beautiful part of the religion.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] Love it. Well, I'm glad you had a functional, healthy. You're like one of a hundred people that we interview that. And maybe that's bias of who we interview. Maybe people done healthy Mormon upbringings end up believing the church and end up on Mormon stories. But I'm very happy that for you, you had a super healthy functional Mormon upbringing. And it's weird how that ended for you Mormon wise. But we'll get to that in the chronology.

Austin Archer [00:46:09] Yeah, yeah.

Teenage Years and Faith Struggles

John Dehlin [00:46:09] All right, so let's, let's do your adolescence.

Austin Archer [00:46:12] Okay. You know, again, coming from the household that I came from, I always swore probably from the age of 12 on, I had a real big potty mouth and I liked it. And me and my friends would just talk that way. And I was even amongst my friends, my friends that were all LDs, I probably swore more than anyone else. And I would always try to get, get my friends to swear more. And like I, like my high school, one of my high school girlfriends, I remember, I would always brighten high, right. I would always encourage her. Like when she would swear in the car, like someone would cut her off and she would swear, I'd be like, you know, but like we both went to church and stuff and I, but I always had friends who weren't lds.

Austin Archer [00:46:51] I always had friends who were living life in a more alternative way. And it was very important for me to have that. I, I just, just, I didn't, I was. The messaging from church was like, we should surround ourselves with like minded people. We should avoid people who are going to be a bad temptation or a bad influence. You know, that's the, like a bad example.

Austin Archer [00:47:11] It was always my inclination that I could be the good example to them that I was like. And also that I, I was trying to show that I'm, I'm a safe person for you to be around and be yourself around and it's okay. You. My friends would drink around me, my friends would smoke around me and stuff like that. And I, I didn't imbibe in anything as a teenager, but I made it Known that I was a safe person to be around if they wanted to be themselves. And I even talked about it in church. Like I said, I love talking in church. I would give talks about how I think I remember giving a talk on magnifying your calling.

Austin Archer [00:47:44] And I said, I think as church members, we all have a calling to do daily missionary work and try to sort of let our light shine and be an example to other people. And I said, I don't know how we can do that if we're actively trying to keep these people out of our lives and that our. And keep having them in our lives is conditional on their behavior. If their behavior is not in alignment with our values, then maybe we should keep them out because they're a bad influence. And I, and I kind of gave this talk as a teenager. I remember sort of chastising the ward about.

Austin Archer [00:48:14] I, I sort of talked about some of my friends. And then I said, now saying that about my friends. I bet some of you have an idea of what that means about me and stuff like that. And I don't know. I was always interested in that side of things, of even approaching my experience as a Mormon from a different view and getting my other LDS friends to have a little bit more of an open mind and, and be okay with the fact that there are different shades of people having different experiences even in our own community. Even though it doesn't look like it, it doesn't feel like it always, but there are, and we should be open and welcoming to all those people.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] Man, it sounds super healthy and progressive. Were you say something?

Carah Burrell [00:48:54] I just wanted to ask, like, what gave you the different worldview that you were able to do that? Was it the friends, was it your parents that made you feel like you could reach out and say that so boldly as a teenager?

Austin Archer [00:49:04] I think it was my parents and it was my friends, and it was just like having friends that, that I always, like I said, I always wanted my friends to feel comfortable around me and to know that I was a safe person to talk to. But I think it was so I, I think it was the desire to be a good ambassador of the church and not in the way that I'd been taught to by just being like, well, just live the principles and it will rub off on people, but being like, I just want them to know that we're not all stuffy, judgmental people.

Austin Archer [00:49:30] And it was sort of a desire to be a good ambassador of the message. But I gotta say, also, I wasn't the most progressive guy. I still Had a lot of problematic areas. Areas, of course I had. I remember I had friends who confided in me their sexuality as a teenager and, and my response. And first of all, I think really cool that they trusted me with that, that they, as teenagers, they trusted me, that I was a safe person to talk to about that. But then I feel like I let those people down and I, because I said, hey, I totally get it. That's totally.

Austin Archer [00:50:08] All right, listen, I struggle with porn and masturbation and I try not to do those things and I have to abstain from those things. So, like, we're gonna be in this together. You're just gonna have to try not to do that. You know, just try to push that down. And I just didn't understand the complexity of like, what I'm saying to this person is at a certain. I mean, I still get to have romantic relationships and I still get to have girlfriends that like, maybe I make out with and maybe we go a little too far and like, do a little bit of like rubbing on each other's whatever.

Austin Archer [00:50:36] But like, you don't get any of that. You know, you have to fully abstain from physical contact or any kind of romantic, you know. And I didn't understand that that's what I was saying and that it wasn't an equal. It was, it was, it was a false equivalence. And I was, I used very homophobic and derogatory language, very like light heartedly and jokingly as a kid and as a teenager. And it's just what we did.

Austin Archer [00:51:01] But it's, it's the culture that we were in and I was very afraid of. And I've, I've realized as an adult that we, and we can talk about this later, but, but that homophobia stems from an internal fear of yourself and what, what might be going on internally because we're raised in this society, that one of the worst things that could happen to me as a person is to find out that I'm gay as a teenager or something and realize, oh my, like, that's one of the worst things that could happen to a Mormon kid is realizing, oh, no, I've got the thing that means that I might lose my entire family.

Austin Archer [00:51:36] I might be, you know, and cursed by God. And I think that internal fear is being projected out is what happens with a lot of homophobia that you hear teenagers express and stuff and people express in, in the world. I, I know now that that's where it came for me because being a theater kid, being an artistic kid, being a creative Kid. I had people calling me gay all the time as a kid. And, and, you know, bullies at school making fun of me and calling me a Sister Mr. And stuff like that. And, and I, I was very offended by it always. And I was like, I don't know why they say that about me. It's not, not true.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] You know, that was an insult.

Austin Archer [00:52:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] And I, I shows some homophobia.

Austin Archer [00:52:16] Exactly. Yep. And I, I took it as an insult and I, I realized in college that it isn't an insult and that I, that I needed to just look internally and go, well, examine it first. Are you, do you have anything in there that you're not looking at or that you're repressing and it's okay, like, give yourself permission to look at it. And then if you're not, like, what does that mean? Like, okay, so it's not a bad. And then how do you feel about these people that you're friends with who are gay and who are, you know. But as a teenager, I just wasn't emotionally progressed enough to, to hold space properly for my friends who were coming to me with that stuff.

Austin Archer [00:52:50] And they've all been very gracious in adulthood at forgiving me for that and saying, like, I know you were a, you were a teenager under, you know, the, the influence of this very, very influential thing that you were raised with. And I appreciate that you've come around because I've talked to all these people in adulthood and said, I'm so sorry that I wasn't more supportive of you when you came to me. And a lot of them, their experience was like, I felt like you were being supportive in your way. You were trying to help better than others. Yeah. You know, and I, Yeah, so. But I definitely look at that and go, I still was operating under the idea that there was something wrong with having just being born a certain way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] So you got right to it. We, we always spend some time in that chair talking about the law of chastity and how that reigns supreme over a Mormon teenager's life. Yeah, you. You went right to the point of masturbation. Is there anything you want to say about. I mean, I was going to ask you what kept you from having some years of, like, Jack Mormonism? There's kind of a stereotype of some of the Utah Mormon kids, like, partying and then repenting right before their mission.

Austin Archer [00:54:03] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] So. So talk about that if you want, but also talk about the extent to which live chastity stuff influenced you or didn't in the shame spiral. And all that.

Austin Archer [00:54:13] Yeah, you know, I mean, that was the, the big cross to bear growing up was for non Mormons that I couldn't. I couldn't stop looking at porn and I couldn't stop masturbating. And I started when I was like 14 years old, 13, 14 years old. And I started with friends. We like found it all together. The Internet was just really becoming popular. This is probably the year 2000, 2001.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] And what did the church taught you about poor to masturbation?

Austin Archer [00:54:40] That you're. That you're a terrible person. That just that. I mean, no one had really talked about it. I don't think I actually talked about it with leaders till I was 14 or 15. And then I will say I was met with a lot of compassion and understanding from the people that I talked to one on one. I look back at that stuff as an adult and I go, I don't know that I like that a guy down the street who was my neighbor was asking me about how often I masturbate. I don't like, but as a kid, that's just what we did. And, but he, you know, the bishops that I had were very.

Austin Archer [00:55:14] Were very good to let me know that. Hey, just so you know, you're not the only person in this ward who's dealing with this problem. In fact, it's pretty much everyone who comes in here and talks to me. So don't worry, you're not. There's not something uniquely wrong with you that you're specifically bad. Don't worry. It is a very common thing that you're dealing with and you've done a good and brave thing coming in here and talking to me. They're very compassionate and they, you know, that being said, it still was the express that I need to try harder to not do it and to abstain from it.

Austin Archer [00:55:53] And so the struggle of my young life was how many days can I get, how many, how many weeks can I put between. Between relapses? And it really was like, without really knowing it, like a young experience with addiction and be. And, and what causes addiction, I think for a lot of Mormon people in this vein is just the, just the fact that it's. You're not allowed to do it. It's not necessarily a thing that's unmanageable, that's like hurting anyone or that's causing. But. And it can be. Sex addiction can absolutely become a compulsory thing. That becomes something where you're not honoring your commitments with people and you're not able to show up in relationships because you are com.

Austin Archer [00:56:32] Like compulsive about this thing. It can absolutely become that way. But I think a lot of times in Mormon culture people will label themselves as a sex addict when really all they're dealing with is just having a libido and trying to shut it off completely. And the fact that that's kind of impossible and kind of antithetical to the human experience and kind of, you know, so I, I definitely was struggling with that as a kid. What didn't help was the fact that all of my friends lied to me and said that they weren't doing it because I tried to talk to my friends at sleepovers and stuff and be like, hey, are you guys also struggling with this thing? And my friends would be like, no, I don't do that. I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] So.

Austin Archer [00:57:13] And that was not helpful. And then it, it didn't come out till we were adults or until they had came back from that. They were like, oh yeah, we were all doing that, you know, and so, so that was, that was the, you know, I think that's a very common thing. But that was my, that was kind of my cross to bear as a kid was.

Austin Archer [00:57:33] And, and you know, like getting caught by my parents, like having my dad take me for a drive and the feeling, the sinking feeling of. I remember my dad said, do you know what a cookie is? And I said, like, what do you mean like a cookie? Like a, like a thing you eat? And he goes, no, on the Internet, do you know what a cookie is? And I said, no. He goes, a cookie is a thing that kind of pings your web browser and it saves where you've been. So I, There's a web history with these cookies. And he goes, I was having. It was my brother in law at the time.

Austin Archer [00:58:08] He goes, I was having him go through and kind of do a sweep on my computer and just clean it out for any viruses. And he found quite a lot of these cookies from pornographic websites. And as you're sitting there with your dad, as you're Satina, it's just like, just the feeling of, just like, oh, the pit of your stomach going, I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe that. There's no way I can say I don't know what you're talking about. I don't, you know, and it just was, it was awful. And one by one, I had a few friends who would tell me, man, my parents caught me, me, you know, they found out, you know, either they, they tried to buy Something they tried to order something with a credit card or something or, or you know, their parents just saw their search history because we didn't know what we were doing on the Internet.

Austin Archer [00:58:51] And, and again, my dad, to his credit, tried to approach it with a lot of compassion and let me know that, don't worry, it's normal, but you gotta try. It was, it was said, we don't want that in our house. You know, you gotta try to. So that was the thing that I was walking around with going, geez, I don't know why I can't get a, get a handle on this thing. I don't know why I can't. You know, it was the one thing and that. I think it might have been that thing and trying so hard to get a handle on it that made me so, so certain that I was never going to try drugs and alcohol.

Austin Archer [00:59:28] I remember at an early age, like 13 or 14 being like, well, if I can just keep it to this one thing, that's my problem. And I can, and I can ace everything else, then at least my average score of how I'm doing as a Mormon is like pretty good. You know, like, especially because, you know,

John Dehlin [00:59:45] everyone else is already doing the one thing you were doing.

Austin Archer [00:59:47] Yeah. So I'm only struggling with the thing that everyone else is struggling with, but I'm gonna get everything else right. And it was almost like to make up for the fact that I can't seem to get a handle on this problem.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:59:56] I'm not drinking now. I swore. But that's also because I think I just, I. I've always thought that, that aver. That like naughty words were a weird thing.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] Plus Jay Golden Kimball swore.

Austin Archer [01:00:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] Did you know about that?

Austin Archer [01:00:09] I know about Jay Golden.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] See?

Austin Archer [01:00:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] So that there's lore in Mormon loremon general authority who swore.

Austin Archer [01:00:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] So that kind of gives you.

Austin Archer [01:00:16] I always, I always thought the replacement words were silly. I always thought that shiz and, and like dang and heck and stuff. I was always just like, it just is weird that we're. Everyone knows what we're saying. It's so weird that we don't as a culture. Like adults, like aren't saying the words.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] Non Mormons have no idea. So non Mormons out there, there. What we do in Utah to replace swear words is we say instead of the F word, we say fetch or flip or farg.

Austin Archer [01:00:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Or bastage. Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:00:44] Bastards.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Or you know what?

Austin Archer [01:00:47] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:00:47] Fudge. My 7 year old says fudge now. And I was like, ah, that's The Mormonism coming out, kid.

Austin Archer [01:00:52] I remember the closest that I think we ever got is we. We started just saying bifurc. We would, like, say that. We'd be like, dude, like, we would, like, say that. And it was like, you just leave off the last sound in the word, but it's kind of like you're just getting. You're. It's like stepping up to the edge of the transgression but being. But. But being like, I'm not doing it. And I also think that this is a funny thing about religion. And all religions have this. They have these rules that are sort of unreasonable and that don't make a lot of sense. And they all agree that we're all gonna, like, break the rule by bending it.

Austin Archer [01:01:24] And it's this weird way of, like, thinking that we're tricking God, that it's like, hey, if God's got this rule, this. And, you know, the example I always use is like. Like, Hasidic Jewish people, they can't use electricity on a certain day. I think it's Friday or Saturday. I can't remember. And they have these light switches in their homes that. It's a light switch that you flip that then flips another switch that flips another switch that turns the light on. And it's sort of like the idea is that this circuit is what's turning the light on. But I didn't do it by flipping this switch.

Austin Archer [01:01:53] And it's this workaround to using electricity that it. And I'm always like, do you think that God's up there? Like. Like, oh, well, you figured it out. You figured out a pretty clever little hack there. So I guess technically, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] No, it's crazy. I did an interview once with Tova Mirvis on Mormon stories. She was an Orthodox Jew. Something like. The elevators in New York are set to go to every single floor on Saturdays, which is the Jewish Sabbath.

Austin Archer [01:02:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] Because you can't push a button to call the elevator. But if the elevator is just all the time going to every floor, you can step on the elevator.

Austin Archer [01:02:27] It would just happen to be here.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] And I stepped up, and somehow God's cool with that.

Austin Archer [01:02:33] So I think that fake words are kind of like that where, like, you're. You're finding a little work around saying the thing that you're saying, but you're like, oh, I'm saying it in a different sound. So, yeah, God's.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] God's cool.

Austin Archer [01:02:44] And God's like, oh, good on you for finding the little trick to, like, still cursing. It's. It's a. It's just bizarre the ways that people think. Because what it says to me is it's an admission that the rule is unreasonable, that the rule doesn't really make reasonable sense in modern society. But we're going to try our best to still do it. We'll just find a little cheat code.

John Dehlin [01:03:07] So one of our. One of our listeners or viewers, other sheep, writes what the frickety flip. So they're mentioning Frick. I had some Idaho roommates at byu. They're like, frick.

Austin Archer [01:03:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] And flip is another one. And of course, I'm sure this is reminding you. You, Carah. Of like, soaking and all that. That.

Carah Burrell [01:03:23] No, it was actually reminding me of Simpsons episode where I already coded at the beginning of this. Oh, my freaking ears.

Austin Archer [01:03:29] My freaking ears. Yeah, yeah. That's how the.

Carah Burrell [01:03:32] That's how the Flanders kids talk, too.

Austin Archer [01:03:34] But it is like soaking. It's like the workarounds. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:03:37] It reminds me of people rolling up their garments, too. Like if the garments. You guys, ladies out there, when the garments in your crotch is here, but the garments are, like, down here, and you roll them up and then it's like, oh, and also, conveniently, these are like booty shorts now. Oh, God's fine with it. That's what I.

Austin Archer [01:03:51] Lot of people do because I still have them on.

Carah Burrell [01:03:52] I still am wearing my garments. They just happen to, like, hug my butt nicely. Now what are you gonna do? God, I'm still wearing them. Yeah, there's all kinds of stuff like that soaking.

Austin Archer [01:04:01] I. I remember asking a Hasidic friend when I lived in New York about the. The curlets that come down the men's faces. And my friend had some that he pinned in. They were fake. You know, a lot of men wear fake ones. And I said, what is. I said, what's the. What's the thing with the hair that comes down the sides? And he goes, well, we believe that you're not supposed to cut the hair that grows along the side of your face. And I said, but that's not growing along the side of your face. So if you don't have naturally the hair that's coming down and you don't have a natural sideburn.

Austin Archer [01:04:28] Like, I don't grow a big, long sideburn either. But I'm like, are you tricking God by pinning in fake hair? What is. Yeah, but so. And then Mormons have. Yeah. Floating and. Or even the weird thing of having anal sex before they have sex, because it's like, well, it's. If it can't get pregnant doing it. And I'm like, it's the poop hole loophole. Yeah, the poop hole loophole.

Austin Archer [01:04:52] It's funny too, because I always go, that's a step further than a lot of people take it. Like, most couples that are having sex don't. That's like a. It's kind of a kinky thing. Yeah. You know, so this is the PG13 aspect of the show.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] Carah, were you going to say something else?

Carah Burrell [01:05:09] No, I should not. I don't want to take an R.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] Ker's thinking of all the jokes, jokes that she wants to. That she's not telling.

Carah Burrell [01:05:17] I mean, we could talk about this endlessly. The loopholes that Mormons go through of this God. I always, I always worshiped a God, at least when I was Mormon. He knows what's on my heart and he knows exactly what I want to do, and he's proud of me that I'm not doing it. And that's all that I need. That's all I need. And so if I'm using a fake swear word, it's because I am being so obedient to not saying that thing. And God is so proud of me and blessings abound.

Austin Archer [01:05:40] You know, I remember that explanation that if you don't understand why a rule exists, you don't need to understand the. It's always a test of obedience that, like, I remember asking about shirt color and being like, I don't get why there's a specific shirt color that doesn't make sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] For Mormons, it's got to be white.

Austin Archer [01:05:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] It seems to wear white shirts and

Austin Archer [01:05:58] it seems really pet. And I really liked wearing like a, like a pastel yellow shirt to church or like a pastel blue or like a. You know, I really like mixing up my, my shirt colors and I just was like, I don't get why. And I know that there was the, the, the reference to white and delight some and stuff like that. And I would say as a teenager, I'd go, yeah, but that, that whole thing has always struck me as kind of racist. And like, I, you know, but. And then the answer that I would get is, well, it's. Can you be obedient? Can you just show obedience? Can you just say, I'll do that thing, even though I don't necessarily agree with it?

John Dehlin [01:06:32] That's what it always comes down to is obedience to authority is the one true immovable Mormon doctrine.

Austin Archer [01:06:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] Cares. Nodding.

Carah Burrell [01:06:42] Yeah. Then you find yourself at 30 years old where you're like, why Can't I drink a cup of coffee? Research, research. Here I am.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] Anyway, you end up on Mormon stories as a co host.

Carah Burrell [01:06:52] Yeah, things just happen when you're like, why do I need to be obedient?

Austin Archer [01:06:54] Why can't I drink a cup of coffee? Yada, yada, yada. Mormon stories.

Carah Burrell [01:06:59] Here we are pretty much like, why do I need to be obedient into this really arbitrary thing that other prophets,

John Dehlin [01:07:04] like Joseph Smith drank wine, drank beer, drank coffee.

Austin Archer [01:07:07] You know what's so funny is all

John Dehlin [01:07:09] this, Jesus had a beard. Like, what are we doing?

Austin Archer [01:07:11] All the stuff that you can't do. Like, I found out in a different way why I can't do it. I can't drink coffee because I have a constitution that doesn't do well with like stimulants. So like, I found out, like, oh, I just can't do it. It gives me anxiety attacks. Like I have, I have a panic attack every time I have a cup of coffee. So I have to, I can't drink coffee, you know, even though I like the taste of it and I like the initial way it makes me feel. But then I, you know, so I can't do, like, I can't do stimulants.

Carah Burrell [01:07:36] You know, Long story short, word of wisdom is true.

Austin Archer [01:07:38] Yeah, got it.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] And we all know Jesus is one big BYU honor code violation. Whether it's the shoulders, it's the midriff, it's the beard, it's. Jesus would have, would be arrested as soon as he stepped on byu.

Austin Archer [01:07:50] Yeah, that's the weirdest thing. The facial hair thing too. Like, and there seem to be these, these sort of grooming and appearance guidelines that were like established in like the 50s. And I'm like, yeah, but if you, if you, if you can understand that they were updated from 1830, when the church was founded, to now. Why would there not be another update in 50, 60 years? Why, why would it not continue to be updated? Like, you're up at some point. This, this, this style guideline was contemporary and was the style guideline of the contemporary time. If it, if contemporary style has moved on and what a well groomed or good, you know, person looks like has changed, why can't you update it? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] The truth is we used to be pioneer beard, you know, polygamous sort of image.

Austin Archer [01:08:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] And when we changed, we changed the kind of IBM Employee Executive 1950s white shirts and skinny ties kind of thing.

Austin Archer [01:08:53] Bi agent.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] And we can't make, we can't change our identity too much or it looks like our profits are Changing with the time. So we only get to. We only get to change our physical appearance, identity, like, once every 100 years.

Austin Archer [01:09:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] So we've got another, I don't know, 50 years before we could do that. I think that's what it is.

Austin Archer [01:09:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] All right.

Austin Archer [01:09:10] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] So. So you had the porn of masturbation. Torment.

Austin Archer [01:09:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:14] But you didn't do the Jack Mormon thing as a teen.

Austin Archer [01:09:17] No, I mean, like, I'm. You know, I. All my friends, for the most part, were still lds, and we were all still really kind of trying to keep each other accountable and stuff. And most of the girls that I was dating were LDs, so, like, the worst that would ever happen with a girl is we would, like, maybe rub our pelvi together. I don't know if that's a word, pelvi, but that's what I'm saying. The plural of pelvis is. And that would happen where they would, like, touch. And then the next time I saw her, she would go, I want to talk about what happened last time.

Austin Archer [01:09:44] We were kissing, and I don't think we should do that anymore. You know? And I would kind of think in my head, like, give me a break. It was just. There was several layers of clothing between, you know, But. But, you know, I. I didn't. I didn't have a ton of opportunity to do the Jack Mormon thing. I did. Like, I said, I'd go to parties where people were drinking and stuff like that, but it wasn't appealing to me. For some reason, as a teenager, I would see.

Austin Archer [01:10:11] I would kind of drive my friends around when they'd be stoned or when they'd be drunk. And I kind of liked being DD and kind of being in control, and I didn't like what looked to me like they were. They.

Austin Archer [01:10:23] They were. They looked stupid to me. They looked like they were, you know, slurring their speech and laughing at stupid things, and. And I was kind of like, I like watching you and driving you around and having this conversation with you, but I don't, you know, so it didn't seem appealing at the time. And so, though.

John Dehlin [01:10:39] So through high school, did you ever even try alcohol?

Austin Archer [01:10:42] No. Not one drop.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] That's amazing.

Austin Archer [01:10:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

High School Acting Career and Ambitions

John Dehlin [01:10:47] Okay, so really quickly, what about. Well, two things. What about. Well, let's talk about. So you had experienced, you know, you had had an agent since you were 8 or 9. You had been in commercials. What. To what extent were you on track to, like, become the next Clark Johnson or Donny Marie? Like, what. What were you Doing high school wise, creatively. And how did you envision your career taking off post high school while you were in high school?

Austin Archer [01:11:17] Yeah, I think that, like I said, I think most of the people I went to high school with would not be surprised that I stuck with it and that I kept doing it and that this is what I'm doing with my life.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] What musicals in high school were you in?

Austin Archer [01:11:26] Oh, geez. We did. We did Godspell. I was Jesus and Godspell. It was very controversial because Mormons. Yeah, Mormons will get like. They'll be like, you can't do a musical about Jesus. That's sacrilegious. But they've. They've never seen the musical. They don't even know what it is. They're just like, well, you can't be singing, like, you know, kind of like pop songs about Jesus. That's bad. And it's actually a very wholesome show. It's like, you know, it's very, very tame. And so we did that. We did. We did Footloose. And I was the Kevin Bacon part. Footloose. And we did Seussical. And I was the Cat in the Hat. And Seussical.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] Well, you were like. You were super popular in your high school then.

Austin Archer [01:12:02] It. I. I had a star lead in

John Dehlin [01:12:04] every musical they did.

Austin Archer [01:12:05] Yeah, well. And, you know, I was. I was involved in a lot of things. I was in student government and I was in choir, and I was in. In theater. And then I had friends in every circle. I had. I had friends on the football team and friends that were, you know, cheerleaders and drill team and all that stuff. So I was a guy when I was walking through the halls, I had a friend in every group, and I was, you know, I just was known by a lot of people, but I think everyone knew that I was gonna go off and try to be an actor and that I was, you know, even in, like.

Austin Archer [01:12:33] I remember we had this. We had this creative writing magazine that would be published every year at school that kids would submit poems and short stories, and then they would compile them into this, like, book that you could buy that was called Runes. And it was. They. It was like a literary magazine from our school. And the teacher who put that together put posters all over the school of my face. It was like my headshot. And she goes by Runes. And megastar Austin Archer will. Will sign a copy of your. Like, of your mat. Of your thing. And she didn't ask me if she could do it.

Austin Archer [01:13:06] I just showed up to school one Day. And that was all over the school. And I was like, yeah, be kidding me. But I had a kind of a funny relationship with that teacher where we would kind of razz each other and go back and forth. But I was also that kid. I was like, I was like the kid that was on first name basis with all the teachers, you know, like going into their office and being like, like, hey, Mike, how we doing? Like getting, getting people to bump up my grade by kind of smooth talking them and stuff. And I was also like never in school. I was always leaving school.

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Sounds like Ferris Bueller almost.

Austin Archer [01:13:33] Yeah, I was, I was always leaving. I was always taking off and, and getting teachers to give me exceptions to things. And I remember my seminary teacher calling me one day because I hadn't shown up to class and he left a voicemail and he went, ah, Brother Archer, you missed it. That president, President Nelson came in and he, he just surprised the class and he gave us a talk and you weren't there.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Did he really?

Carah Burrell [01:13:55] No.

Austin Archer [01:13:56] Yeah, no, he's just making it up. But you would just say that stuff to go like, man, you missed it. You know, but, but yeah, I was kind of a, I was a really gregarious kid and I was a real people person and I could make friends with anybody and I was the lead in all the shows.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] And were you like most, most Prom king or Most likely to succeed, all that?

Austin Archer [01:14:17] Yeah, it's. There was a, there's a, A dance where there's a Duke, a sophomore Duke, and a Junior Prince and a senior king. And I was all three of them.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Oh my God.

Carah Burrell [01:14:26] I got your character down in my head for. I got exactly what kind of kid in high school you were. My kids are actually gonna end up going to Brighton because I live right around the corner. Yeah, yeah.

Austin Archer [01:14:33] As a kid going through the halls, doing this to lots of people. Yeah, it's going like that.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] So I have to ask, if you, If I had asked you your senior year in high school, okay, you're gonna be famous, how is your career gonna go? How are you? What's gonna be the path to stardom? What would you have said as a senior in high school? You know, I'm gonna do X, Y and Z.

Austin Archer [01:14:52] You know what's funny is everyone else was always the people telling me that I was gonna be famous. And I was the one. I, I never. My entire life. And I think it's because. I think it's because of the way my parents would talk about it. My dad was a very pragmatic Guy. And I've talked about this, like, how LDS parents will raise kids who are showbiz people, but then they'll sort of discourage a career in the arts. My dad was very supportive, but he wanted me to know the number risks. He just wanted me to know, like, hey, just so you know, being really good at something that's this hard to do isn't a guarantee that you're going to be able to do it for every person that was the lead in all the.

Austin Archer [01:15:34] The schools in the. At their high school, maybe one out of a thousand makes it into the. Into the career, you know, And. And the. And so he would try to really present the numbers to me in a realistic way, what I wanted to do in high school and in college. And again, I've always had people who would come up to me and go, like, you're gonna be famous. Like, if anyone at this school is gonna be famous, it's gonna be you. I never believed that, and I would never let myself believe that because I just, just. I had this feeling like the odds just aren't for it, the numbers aren't for it.

Austin Archer [01:16:05] And I wanted to be realistic, and I didn't want to crush myself by thinking, if I'm not famous by age 25 or whatever, if I. Then I. Then I failed. My goal was always, I want to work in the field. I want to be in the field. I want to be making money doing this thing. So if I can be a working actor, if I can be reasonably respected by my colleagues and by my peers, that'll be enough. And that was my goal in college. That. And to a large extent, that's still my. My goal. Like, I. All I want to do is keep working. And being popular on the Internet just helps me do that. It helps me keep working. It helps me, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] So did you have a path in mind as a high school senior? Like, I'll go to college and then I'll go to Broadway, and then I'm asking you this again in college, and then we'll see.

Austin Archer [01:16:58] I was going to live in New York City. I knew that I'd visited New York a few times as a teenager. The first time I went, I was 12 years old.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] And Broadway shows.

Austin Archer [01:17:06] Oh, yeah, we saw the Lion King, and we saw Les Miserables. And Les Miserables was life changing for me. We saw into the woods, which I didn't realize was going to be so life changing for me because I was too young to really appreciate Stephen Sondheim. And Stephen Sondheim became my.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] You just Passed away.

Austin Archer [01:17:24] He just passed away. And it was very difficult for me. I just did a podcast episode about it. I was like, he's just a very important person to me and very important artist. And that was one of the first Broadway shows I ever saw was into the Woods. And then I went back in high school. We did a high school theater trip to New York. And that was the trip where I was like, I went out with my friends one day without parental supervision, and I was like, let's just go away from where everyone else is, and let's just, like, go out into the city for a day.

Austin Archer [01:17:51] And we actually. Actually wound up getting lost. And it was really scary because we were teenagers and our parents were like, where are you? You know? But I knew on that trip, when we made it back on our own, when we found our own way back, I was like, I can live here. I can do this. And so the plan was go to college, get a degree in theater, and move to New York and try to be on Broadway. And even.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] Even to be a Broadway performer. Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:18:16] And even that idea seems too lofty for me. I was still saying, like, if I can.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] Can.

Austin Archer [01:18:21] If I can be on a tour or if I can. Like, when I was in college, the big stage that I wanted to get on was Pioneer Theater. That was like, that's.

John Dehlin [01:18:29] That's the University of Utah.

Austin Archer [01:18:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] Theater, you know, sequence that happens every year. They do six musicals or whatever.

Austin Archer [01:18:37] And even in. In high school, we would go. They do a. They do a show for all the local high schools. For every production that they're doing at Pioneer, they do a matinee once a run where all the local high schools come and watch for free. And my high school went to all of those. And I was in high school, I was like, the idea of being a principal role on that stage was insane. Was like, maybe someday, if I'm lucky, I'll be in the ensemble of one of those shows.

John Dehlin [01:19:03] Nice.

Austin Archer [01:19:04] And. And so I. I. And I still thought that. So I. My. My idea of what I could achieve in this field was always. I always was like, keep it. Keep it modest. Yeah. And hoping that I could. Could surprise myself maybe doing a little bit better.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] Set the expectations low, then you'll be devastated.

Austin Archer [01:19:25] And I've met people in this career who, from the day I met him, they went, hi, nice to meet you. I'm gonna win an Academy Award someday. Like, not that direct, but they would be like, I'm gonna. And I always think, like, okay, we'll see. You know, it's very hard, but we'll see. And those people do well because I think there's something about the, just the,

John Dehlin [01:19:44] you know, dude, I've mentioned this before, but I just have to say it. So I went to high school with Renee Zellweger and she called me when I was at byu. Somehow we got back in touch after my mission and I'm like, hey, Renee, what are you gonna do? Like what? You know, she's like, I'm gonna be an actress. No. No way.

Austin Archer [01:20:02] Yeah, well, so I could be wrong. I mean, I've had, I've had ex girlfriends who.

John Dehlin [01:20:06] She end up winning the Academy Award. She, she, she had that.

Austin Archer [01:20:09] I had ex girlfriends who told me when we were together, they said, I'm going to be on Broadway. And I would say, you're so talented. You're one of the most talented people I've ever met. I know you can do it. I just want you to know that it's very hard. And both of the ex girlfriends I've had who told me I'm gonna be on Broadway have been on Broadway.

Carah Burrell [01:20:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] So it works.

Austin Archer [01:20:26] You know, it works. So it's like, I'm like, maybe my problem is that I've always been selling myself short. I've had people my whole life saying, dude, you're the, you're the guy. Go do it. And I've always been like, hey, if I can just get in the back door, somehow squeeze in. If I can just find a seat at the table and just be getting paid, I'll be happy. I'll count myself.

John Dehlin [01:20:44] The lesson I'm hear is make big, bold.

Austin Archer [01:20:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:47] Yeah, Maybe make wimpy goals.

Austin Archer [01:20:49] Maybe be a little shoot for the.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] Shoot for the sun and you'll hit this moon.

Austin Archer [01:20:52] I just watched King Richard and like that guy plotted out his kids lives before they were born.

John Dehlin [01:20:56] Oh, that's a great movie.

Austin Archer [01:20:58] He went like my kid, you know, he's telling everybody. My two girls, they're going to be the best that ever did the play, played the game, teaching his kids how to play tennis in Compton. And he's going, they're going to be the best that ever changed. They're going to change the game.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Venus and Serena Williams. Great movie. We'll let it in the show notes King Richard.

Austin Archer [01:21:12] And they're undoubtedly the two. The two best. They're undoubtedly and.

Faith and Testimony as a High School Senior

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Okay, okay, real quick. Before we leave high school, how was your faith life by the time you're a senior in high school, what was your testimony like? And how are you going to reconcile The. The path the Mormon Church wanted for you to take. Mission, temple, marriage. All that with your aspiring theatrical. With your theatrical aspirations.

Austin Archer [01:21:40] Yeah. Strong, strong. Strong testimony beyond a shadow of a doubt, as they say you would. Oh, boy. I knew, man. I knew. I. I knew more than I knew anything. I knew that this thing was the thing and that I was so lucky to be born into it, and it

John Dehlin [01:21:57] was the true church.

Austin Archer [01:21:58] Oh, yeah. And I was hyped on going on a mission. I was like, I was ready. I was. You know, I had to think, do I want to even go to a semester of college first, or do I just want to do some mission prep and then get out there? My birthday's in January. The. The change to 18 years old being the age hadn't happened yet, so it was still 19 years old. You would go. And I had to think, do I want to even go to a semester of college first, or do. I mean, I was chomping at the bit. I was just.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] You were older, Price.

Austin Archer [01:22:24] Yeah, I was ready to go. I was ready to go change the world. I was like. I was. You know, I was going to blow people away. And, you know, I'd gone to efy and FY is, like, such a huge edifying experience for youth if they. You know, everyone gets together and you cry and you. You bear your testimony other. And then your counselor says, go back to your room and ask God on your own if this is right for you, and just. And just let the answers come. And me and my. My roommate for the week go back to our room, and sitting across from each other, we both ball our eyes out in our quiet prayers, and we turn around and we hug each other.

Austin Archer [01:22:58] And we both know. And that's our. It's our white light moment. It's our moment where we know I'll never be able to deny that this happened. I'll never be able to deny that I felt this way. So I'm locked in. I'm, like, ready to go.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] All right.

Austin Archer [01:23:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:12] Well, then I'm dying to hear what happens next. So you're prom king. You like?

Austin Archer [01:23:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] You graduate? Most likely. What were you voted? Most likely.

Austin Archer [01:23:20] I was voted in the yearbook most likely to win an Academy Award.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] That's awesome.

Austin Archer [01:23:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:25] So what happens to us and Archer when he graduates from Brighton? Bengals.

Austin Archer [01:23:29] Yeah. So it's so interesting. I. I wanted to go to BYU and do their musical theater program, which

John Dehlin [01:23:37] is no slouch, right?

Austin Archer [01:23:38] Yeah. Yeah, it's a. It's a real deal. And. And I wrote them a letter. I For my submission, I, first of all, I went down and auditioned and I wasn't crazy about the audition because there were so many people there and they didn't really even know who I was. And I had like tried to.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] Why weren't you offered a scholarship just based on your credentials?

Austin Archer [01:23:57] Yeah, you know, you send them a tape. There are people coming in from all over the world, Mormon kids coming in from all over the world to study there. And I sent them an essay that I wrote that was talking about how I love this field so much and I love acting so much, but I don't want to compromise my values to do it. And I don't want to be in a place like the University of Utah that's going to make me do plays that say the F word and maybe do plays that have nudity in them or like. And I was like, I want to be able to work in this field and I don't want to compromise my values.

Austin Archer [01:24:27] And I thought that they would really respond to that and, and nobody ever replied to me. And I auditioned and I got in the program, but I didn't get a scholarship. And then I went up and auditioned at Weber State University. And at the time it was being run by a guy named Jim Christian, who's known well in the theater community here in Utah. And he's an LDS guy. But what Jim does really well is he knows everybody's name and he makes you feel like, welcome home. Like you come in to his audition and he knows your name and he remembers where he met you and like, and, and what you sang for him

John Dehlin [01:24:59] and

Austin Archer [01:25:01] he makes you feel like a million bucks. And Weber State University offered me a full ride scholarship, you know, just everything paid for and I, it was kind of a no brainer, so I went.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] You probably didn't write them the same letter you wrote byu.

Austin Archer [01:25:12] I didn't. I did not.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] There's a chance that the BYU theater faculty were more progressive and they're like, I don't want some tightwad student here, like worried about swearing.

Austin Archer [01:25:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] Cause sometimes like, I remember Charles Menton, he was a professor, BYU theater program. When I was there, he was really progressive and kind of liberal. I mean, there's a chance that that essay worked against you is all I'm saying.

Austin Archer [01:25:32] I went and auditioned for the actor training program at the University of Utah and the woman who runs that, her name's Sarah Shipabatham, she's still there. And she's asked me since she's gone, like, why did you not accept my offer. But it's because she said straight up, she sat all these kids down at. She went, we don't deal with ninnies here, here. And if you're going to be a ninian, if you're going to like, sue. Because they had had a problem. They had a student sue the program because the program was trying to make her say a bad word in a play. And she sued the program for her religious freedom that she.

Austin Archer [01:26:03] Well, they said, well, that's fine, you just won't be in the play and we'll cast someone else. And she said, that's. You're just, you're discriminating against me. Yeah. So they said, we don't want those students in our program. And so if that's you, that's totally fine. Go, go down south. There's a program down there where you'll fit in just fine. This is not the school for you. And it scared me off. I went, I don't want anything to do with this. I'm trying to go on a mission.

Austin Archer [01:26:25] Weber State seemed like a place where I could have my cake and eat it too. Where I could, you know, the program was really coming on strong too. There were a lot of people talking about it and saying the theater program up there is really developing and it wasn't as competitive to get in as the UMBYU were. It was a little bit like a well kept secret at the time.

Austin Archer [01:26:46] And I thought, I'm going to go here. This will be a safe place. Lots of other LDS kids who I can, you know, kind of stay safe with. And so I went to Weber State and almost immediately was put to the test, like, almost immediately, like, I, I made friends fast because that's what I do. I'm a people person and I'm gregarious and I'm like, I was, you know, and, and I think I got cast in a show right away in the ensemble. And again, like, I didn't go in there thinking, I'm gonna be the lead in every show. I went in thinking, I'm the new guy, I gotta pay my dues and be in the background.

Austin Archer [01:27:24] I was happy to be in a show. And there was a girl in that show who was an upperclassman who asked me if I wanted to hang out after rehearsal one night, you know, and I was like, yeah, sure. And she was very good looking and she asked me where I was living. I said, at the dorms. And she showed up at my dorm room and like, didn't waste any time. Started like making out with Me, and I'm this kid, this. And it was like the most aggressive thing I'd ever had in my life to that point, right off the bat, you know, like maybe month one of being at Weber State University.

Austin Archer [01:27:56] And I had to like, instant. The biggest thing that I'm struggling with is my sex drive, you know, like porn and masturbation. And I've got this girl who's like on top, who's just, you know, and I had to shut it down. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry to do. I'm. I'm trying to go on a mission. And I remember her being like, all right, dude, all right. And she was kind of like, I bet you're not going to be going to church by the end of the year. And I was like, I think you're wrong, but I appreciate it. I hope we can stay friends.

Drifting Away from the Church in College

Austin Archer [01:28:24] And she was like, yeah, we will. She's like, but I'm just letting you know right now, I bet you're not going to be going to church by the end of the year. And I was like, yeah, okay, whatever, you know. And. And then I got invited to parties because the people I was in the show with were going to parties and I went to the parties and everybody I in this department was drinking, smoking weed, and I just was like, oh my God, what did I do? I put myself right in the lion's den. I didn't realize that's what I was doing, but that was the stuff that started.

Austin Archer [01:28:52] And it's weird that this didn't happen in my adolescence, in my teenage years, because I had friends who drank and used drugs and stuff like that, but I always sort of like separated myself from them and thought that I was better than them. What was happening is I had these upperclassmen who I really, really respected who were good people. And some of them were.

Austin Archer [01:29:13] They were behaving in a way like they were talking to me about their philosophy. And I saw the way that they treated the younger kids and they were really nice to them and really, like, helpful. And they were kind of taking on this like big brother role for me. And I was noting that they were behaving very Christ like and very. They were like, like they were doing whatever they could to help people out. And they were.

Austin Archer [01:29:35] They were really concerned with my well being and just really kind people. And I think the behavior that I had observed at parties up to that point was teenagers going wild because mom and dad are out of town. But I was a kind of like the college kids were trying to be sophisticated about it. They were, like, drinking wine and discussing plays, and it seemed really cool. And like. Like, so I went to these parties for the entire first semester, and. And I never drank. I didn't use. But I went to the parties because I liked being around these people, and I liked that they were sharing with me ideas and philosophies that I hadn't considered, and they were challenging me and asking me questions that no one had ever asked me before.

Austin Archer [01:30:17] And I really respected them. I respected their intelligence, and I respected their character. And they also seemed to, like, they were blowing up. This idea that I had grown up with that you couldn't be happy, truly happy outside of the church. My friends that were drinking and using drugs in high school were really struggling with.

Austin Archer [01:30:36] Was putting them at odds with their parents, and it was making their home life very hard. And it looked like proof that drugs and alcohol lead to misery and to nothing good. So I don't need to worry about it now. I had all these people who. Who were happy, who seemed like they had their act together, and they were drinking and smoking weed, and they seemed very like. This one guy in particular who just seemed so. He almost seemed like a yogi. He seemed very like. Like Buddhist and peaceful and serene. And I. And I just would be like, well, this guy's blowing up my notion of what a good person is because he does all these things that a good person isn't supposed to do. And he seems more enlightened than anyone maybe I've ever met.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] Met.

Austin Archer [01:31:19] You know, he seems to be more in tune with real, genuine spiritual connection than anything I've ever seen. And so that kind of blew up my notions of, like, having a monopoly on spirituality and having a monopoly on being good.

Austin Archer [01:31:38] And. And. Yeah. And then by. By spring semester of my freshman year, I was telling my parents, I think I want to step away from the church on a trial basis. I want to see what happens if I don't go to church for a while and just see what. And. And I. And I even told them this. I said, I fully expect that I'm gonna fall flat on my face, and then I'm gonna roll down the hill. I'm gonna let go of the iron rod, I'm gonna roll down the hill into the ravine, and I'm gonna be in a thorny patch of brambles, and I'm gonna go, whoops, my bad. And I'm gonna come back. And that was kind of the beginning.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] Wow. Roger Purse.

Austin Archer [01:32:12] They went. They were very Kind of baffled by it a little bit because it was very sudden. It was like one week. I just came into their house and I said, hey, this is what's happening. I'm going to. And it was. I was getting ready to go on a mission. I was doing mission prep. I was, I was filling, I was, I had my papers and everything. And, and I said, before we do this, before we make a decision that I can't really take back, I actually want to. Let's put the mission on hold. Told my bishop, I'm going to put the mission on hold.

Austin Archer [01:32:40] And then I got into a relationship with a person who was another upperclassman, and we were dating and we were, we were out on this, this, this class trip to Washington D.C. we were performing a play at the Kennedy center in Washington D.C. and we were at the hotel and I decided that night, I think I'm gonna drink. I think I'm gonna try. I drink. And now that I've stepped away from the church for a little bit and I remember what I drank. I drank apple, green apple rum, like green apple flavored rum. And I hated it. It was awful.

Austin Archer [01:33:16] But I really liked the way it made me feel. And I, I was never, I wasn't a moderate drinker from day one. I drank heavy pretty much from the get go. I just, I liked it so much. I liked the way it made me feel. I liked what it did for me. It felt like the person I am, the gregarious people person that I am really shown with a few drinks. It was like, oh, now, I mean, I'm fun with, I'm fun sober. Oh, I'm really fun now. And I, I felt like I really had arrived with this new friend group and my girlfriend and I were trying things that I had never tried before and going places that I'd never gone before.

Austin Archer [01:33:56] And I finally, I think the next time I had a meeting with my bishop, I told him, I said, I think I'm done. And he went, really? And I said, yeah. And I told him, I said, I told him everything that's going on. And he goes, well, look, if you can stop that stuff and get a hold of it, we can still fix this. And I said, I don't think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna keep doing it. And he just went, he, and he said, he mentioned a disciplinary council. He goes, what you're telling me is really, really serious, and if you have no plans of stopping, we might have to do a disciplinary council. And I said, you weren't Even an

John Dehlin [01:34:23] elder yet by that point.

Austin Archer [01:34:23] Yeah. And I said, said. I said I wouldn't show up to it if you did. And he goes, oh, man, I can't believe what you're telling me. And I said, I'm just trying to be honest with you, you know, and. And I walked out. And that was the last time I ever talked to an ecclesiastical leader. That was the last time I ever really participated in anything. And. And yeah, I mean, I was very secure with the choice at that point. It was interesting how it steamrolled and that. What. That girl who made the prediction was spot on. That by the end of year one, I was. Was fully out.

John Dehlin [01:34:51] But that wasn't the girl you ended up with.

Austin Archer [01:34:53] No, it was a different. Different girl. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] So a couple things really quick. Number one, that's Carrie, I think you'll agree this is like you're in the 99th percentile of. Of what you know, of. Of Mormons raised Mormon, especially in Utah. Raised with believing nobody steps off the train before the mission.

Austin Archer [01:35:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] You know, yeah. They all go on the mission and the mission and then most of them get married and have the kids and then wake up when they're 30 or 40 or 50 and they're like, what. What happened with my life? But almost, you know, almost never does somebody step off the Mormon train pre mission when they were a believer right up until that point. So that's super unique. The other. Did you want to say something?

Austin Archer [01:35:36] Keep going.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] The other thing is like, I know the Mormon mindset and I know that going through your brain. Like, what would have. I would have had chairs. I had a girlfriend in high school, put my hand on her boob, you know, or like, people offered me marijuana or hash or whatever. Alcohol out of my mind. There was like, the Book of Mormon, Lehi's, you know, vision of the Tree of Life and the great and spacious building and all the people pointing their finger and mocking at the people holding to the iron rod. And then there's that whole. And this is the. Like, I'm. I'm. I think I have not pondered how powerful metaphor was.

Austin Archer [01:36:14] It is such a potent metaphor for so many of us. It is that. Just that image of hanging onto this thing.

John Dehlin [01:36:21] Yeah. Because me, I was holding on to the iron rod, looking at the people in the building, saying, oh, they're making fun of me. They're worldly, they're drinking, smoking, doing drugs, having sex. They're mocking me. They're pointing their fingers at me. I'm holding the iron rod. Oh, if you Let go of the iron rod, you end up in the midst of darkness, falling into the river. Or you end up in the great and spacious building. That's not going to be me. I'm going to tell the girl, take my hand off her boob. No, I'm not going to have that. Drugs and alcohol, yes, I'm going to go on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:36:48] But you, you made the different decision. You literally, in your mind, either you would have had to a say, no, I want to be in the great auspicious building. I want to be in the midst of darkness. I choose sin and debauchery in evil and wickedness over righteousness. Or, and this is the harder thing to wrap my brain around, you would have said, that whole dream, that whole Lehigh's dream is false. It's not true. It's a misrepresentation of joy and happiness and reality. And I reject the dream.

Austin Archer [01:37:20] And it was that one, John. It was. It was exactly that. It was. And that. You're so right. That simple metaphor is so potent for so many people in the church. This. This idea of you're clinging to this thing on a very narrow, treacherous path, and if you let go at all the path, you might. It's kind of like if you were hiking Angel's Landing and you've got that chain that you can hold on to in Zion's National Park. And, like, you don't want to let go of that chain because you got. You've got straight down cliff face on the side every year. And that's the way I imagined this path is that I'm hanging onto this pole, and if I even take one step off, I might slip and roll down the hill into a ravine, and it might be really hard to get back.

Austin Archer [01:38:00] What I did is I said, these people that I've met and talking with these people, and the questions they were asking me, they were asking me good questions. Like, I had friends asking me questions like, have you ever done anything else with your life? Have you ever tried any other philosophies out in your entire life? And I said, no, but I don't have to. I know the one that I believe in is right. And they go, but have you ever even opened yourself up to anything else? And I'd go, no. And they go, and you're going to go sell this idea to people who have done lots of other things.

Austin Archer [01:38:29] Don't you think you'd be a better salesman if you had maybe just, like, tried on a few different hats just to see what's what it's like. And you know, and I. That, that idea that they were trying

John Dehlin [01:38:38] to tempt you, they were just basically saying, no, no what you're choosing and selling before you sell it.

Austin Archer [01:38:43] Yeah. They were just trying to say, wouldn't it make you a better represent representative if you could say I've, I've been there, done that, or if you could relate to these people a little bit more. You've only done one thing your whole life. And I couldn't get that idea out of my head that I've re. I don't have a lot of experience, I don't have a lot of perspective. And what I did was I kind of gambled that it might be okay for me to consciously let go of the rod and step into a new direction that I've never stepped into before and do it consciously.

Austin Archer [01:39:14] Not as a, not as a slip, not as a mistake, not as a, whoops, I got tempted and I. But as a conscious decision, I'm going to step away and see what happens. Happens. Still having all the indoctrination. So enough so that I fear that I'm gonna fail. I'm surely what's gonna happen is I'm gonna fall flat on my face and be miserable and I'm gonna come crawling back. But I just want to try it just to see if it makes me a more well rounded person. Maybe, maybe it'll just make me a person who understands a little bit more about the wide breadth of human experience.

John Dehlin [01:39:46] It's basically scientific method, gathering data. Data, yeah, you were gathering data.

Austin Archer [01:39:50] But it was, it was incredibly hard because like you said, I went be. I left before my mission, which is not the typical way that this is done. And also I was the first person in my entire family, my extended family,

John Dehlin [01:40:03] all that your older siblings, always older

Austin Archer [01:40:05] siblings, my cousins, everyone. I was the first person to not do it and to not, and not at least get that far.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] And in Mormonism, to your parents, to your bishop, to your ward, family, friends and family, aunts, uncles, you're just a huge disappointment.

Austin Archer [01:40:22] Oh, it was, I mean it was just like I, it, the, the sense of isolation and rejection at that age was so difficult. Luckily, a lot of my friends were already on their missions when I decided I wasn't going on mine. So I had a couple of years to sort of adjust to my new normal before they got back and had to deal with me. But that was hard when my friends, when my best friends got back and they were like, what happened, man? Like what? You know, like, you were the best of us like you were what happened to you? You know, and, and I think.

Austin Archer [01:40:55] And I've told them, I've told them multiple times since then as they've, as they've become more progressive and as they've been able to have better conversations about it. The, like, doing that was very hard. It wasn't easy, and it was. Wasn't something that I, I did just because I wanted to party and I wanted to do bad things with girls. I was doing it because I genuinely wanted to examine what it was that I claimed to believe. Like, I felt so sure about this thing, and I felt so sure without ever having honestly examined it. And I just felt like I couldn't in good conscience go out there and sell this to people and tell them, this is the way to be happy.

Austin Archer [01:41:33] This is the only way, the best way for you to have a chance at happiness is this thing if haven't ever actually lived a day in their shoes. And so I wanted to try just having a different experience and of course, stepping out. What it all it did was it just became a can of worms. And it just became, well, let's look at this. And then, oh, that's, that's different than what I thought it was. And then let's look at this and let's look at this. And then, you know, before long, I think the last thing to go was me finally going, oh, I don't even know if I believe in God.

Austin Archer [01:42:03] You know, like, like that was the last thing I was hanging on to is like, well, this is all not working for me anymore. And Joseph Smith might not be who I thought he was, but I still have a relationship with God. And finally then one day I think somebody asked me, I was in the store with somebody and they were like, do you still believe in God? And I went, you know what? I don't think so. And it just was that simple. And from that day on, I was an atheist, you know, So I was

John Dehlin [01:42:28] going to ask you, what years were you at W.E. bieber.

Austin Archer [01:42:31] I was there from 2006 to 2010.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] Okay, so I'm just in my timeline, Mormon stories that started by that point, and so that's pre CES letter, but post Mormon stories, founding. Like, I was going to ask you, aside from lifestyle deconstruction, which it sounds like you did, was there any truth claims, church history, deconstruction that came along with that at that time, or did that come later? And if there was at that time time, what were your sources? Because, I mean, I guess Mormon expression came out around 2000, 2010. But I don't want to prime you. So, like, was there any truth claims or historical deconstruction?

Austin Archer [01:43:10] There were some. There was some. What were they like? Just. Just learning more about who Joseph Smith was. I remember having friends tell me about Joseph Smith and I would go, no, that's not right. And they would go, no, actually it is. And then I thought things about. Just like they would say, did you know that he's. He was a convicted con artist? Like that he was like convicted for being a con man. And I would go, I don't think so. I think that sounds like what. Like people who, you know, his. The people who are against him would maybe have a story of propaganda saying that he's a con artist.

Austin Archer [01:43:40] That makes sense to me. But then they would say stuff like, did you know that he would like, kind of force people to let him marry their very young daughters? And things like that. And it was just little bit by bit. And then even in my head, I just started asking myself the question because I started thinking about other people who have started churches. I started thinking about L. Ron Hubbard and I started thinking about, you know, even. Just. Even the story of Muhammad. It's very similar. The guy goes to a cave and he prays and he asks God, I need to know the truth.

Austin Archer [01:44:15] And God reveals a book to him and he brings the. Translates the book and he brings it back and the book is the Quran. Like, it's just. I started thinking about that and I started thinking what's more likely that my. That my religion story that has a very similar story to lots of other religions, that there's this guy who for whatever reason becomes chosen by God to be the vessel for the message.

Austin Archer [01:44:34] What's more likely that he. That he, out of all of them, everyone else's, is a lie. They're all shysters and con artists and people who are just trying to get power and money and influence in society. And this was the route that they went about it or.

Carah Burrell [01:44:50] Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:44:50] And then they're all fake and mine is the one. Mine is the one that actually is true or that he's just another one of those guys. And it was really just that simple question that got me going. I think he was just another one of those guys. And I could even hang on to the idea that like. And I still do in some ways think. I think it's possible for these people to delude themselves and to.

Austin Archer [01:45:12] I mean, I remember watching the documentary Prophets Pray with Warren Jeffs and what a disturbing documentary. Have you Ever seen that? It's. It's. It's prophets, P R E Y. And it's about. It's about just Warren Jeffs and his many, many sex crimes that he committed while being the leader of the FLDS church. And there's a scene in that documentary where. Where he's in prison and his brother comes to visit him. And he tells his brother, he's very lucid, and he goes, listen, I just need you to tell everyone I made it all up. I'm not the prophet. I don't talk to God. I never have.

Austin Archer [01:45:50] And I've been lying about this. And I just. I'm done with it. I'm done. My life's over. And I just want you to know it's not real. And his brother goes, warren, no. Warren. Warren, listen to yourself. The devil's got you right now. This is Satan talking. This isn't you. This is the adversary. This isn't you. You are the prophet. You're being deceived. And as his brother's doing this, you see Warren kind of fighting it, and then he just goes, yes, you're right. I am being deceived. And he switches in the room, and it's. It's this wild moment where you're like, he was almost there.

Austin Archer [01:46:24] He was telling the truth. He was being honest about the fact that he's never actually had a conversation with God. He's, you know, he's had feelings. He's prayed like everyone's prayed. He's had, you know, a thought come that could be a voice from outside or, you know, But I think it's possible for these people, with enough people surrounding them, building them up and bolstering them up and saying, no, you are. You are this. I think it is possible to get caught up in it. So I still think that there's a possibility that Joseph Smith wasn't just a guy going, I'm getting away with pulling the wool.

Austin Archer [01:46:57] I think there's a possibility that he was able to convince himself to a certain extent that there is a reason why I'm in the position that I'm in. I have been chosen to lead these people. Otherwise it wouldn't have worked. You know, this story that I told wouldn't have worked if I was, you know, so maybe this is the. Maybe the way that this message is getting across is I have to. In the story that I'm coming up with is being revealed to me for a purpose. You know, like, I think it's possible that. That it doesn't have to be as black and white as you're a malevolent person who is just trying to get power.

Austin Archer [01:47:32] I even think someone like Keith Ranieri, who started Nexium, can. Could be like that, could. Could delude himself to thinking, I'm helping people. I am helping people. And on the side, I'm having women brand my initials into them, and I'm having a little sex harem, you know, something like that. But.

Austin Archer [01:47:49] So that was the simple question was, what kind of man was Joseph Smith Smith really this person who. It sort of all hinges on that. And then the next question was, if I don't think Joseph Smith was who I, my whole life have believed he is, what do I think of the Book of Mormon? Do I think that it is still an accurate record? And if I don't, then there's really no point in being here anymore. So that's sort of where I started with, was just those questions and looking into those on my own and coming up with my own determination that it's more likely in an Occam's Razor sense that he's just another person who started a church, and he happened to be very successful at it.

Austin Archer [01:48:31] And so I was probably out four, five, six years maybe before I started to see some real stuff, like CES letter and things like that, where I was like, oh, wow, I had any even. I didn't even get that deep. But I. It. It tracked it. It all was very validating for me when I saw that stuff. I remember the first time that I saw what a temple ceremony looked like, and I. It blew my mind. I. I was maybe 25 years old, 24 years old, probably younger than that, maybe 23. And I saw a clip on YouTube of the God Makers and of a temple ceremony, and I sent it to my brother, who at the time was questioning his faith.

Austin Archer [01:49:12] And we had been talking about it, and I sent him the clip and I said, is this real? Is this what it looks like in there? And he goes, yeah, that's what it looks like. And I went, I can't believe that that's what you guys do. Like, that does not seem like the church that I grew up in. That seems like an entire. And I was like, no wonder people say we're a cult, because that's some creepy cult stuff. And what you were watching.

Carah Burrell [01:49:35] Or is it just kind of.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] That was the God Makers. They.

Carah Burrell [01:49:38] They.

Austin Archer [01:49:38] The God Makers.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] There's a point in the God Makers where they dress in full temple guard,

Carah Burrell [01:49:42] where they act it out.

Austin Archer [01:49:43] They do it. They do the hand motion. And they do, but. And that was also back when they

John Dehlin [01:49:49] do that, the throat slitting.

Austin Archer [01:49:51] I just watched that thing and I got this, this sinking feeling watching that. And I'd been out of the church for like, five years at this point, but I was like. And I'd never gone through the temple because I never went on a mission. And I just thought, thought, I can't believe I, I, I can't believe my parents are dressing up like this and doing this. And that people are, that I grew up with are doing that. My friends who have all gone on missions are all dressing up and doing this. And so there were definitely moments throughout where I was comfortably out where a thing would drop that I would be like, you gotta be kidding me.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] You know, we felt validating.

Austin Archer [01:50:24] Yeah. Oh, it was very validating. It was very validating. Learning about what's his name, Hoffman. Mark Hoffman was very validating. It was like, yeah, of course, of course. Some guy was able to just, to just make stuff up and go, hey, look, I found a thing.

Austin Archer [01:50:41] Is that his name? Mark Hoffman? Yeah, that was very validating. And so everything I found along the way validated my hypothesis. When I, of stepping out and saying, first of all, the initial thing was an experiment. It was, let's see what happens.

Austin Archer [01:50:56] And then I started having hypotheses of like, let's just, let's just allow myself to consider this through another lens. Let me allow myself to look at the church like an outsider, you know, why do people say we seem so weird? You know? And just look at it. I remember the first time I went back to church after stepping away, and I was maybe 19 years old, maybe 20 years old, and I went back to watch my nieces and nephews singing in a primary seminary program. And it was the first time that I felt like I was watching a church service from an outside perspective. And all of a sudden everything was different.

Austin Archer [01:51:32] And I saw little kids going up to the pulpit and I saw their parents whispering in their ear what to say. And I remember growing up being taught that that's cute and that that's really sweet. Isn't it sweet? This little angel coming up, and I wanna say that I love. And their parents are telling them what to say. And I remember thinking, that was cute. And I was watching it going, going, that's unsettling, that's creepy. That this kid who doesn't know anything, who has no clue of anything, is being taught in their ear, whispered in their ear to say, I know that this is a true church.

Austin Archer [01:52:05] I know that this is like. I just. It seemed wholly inappropriate to me. It seemed very misguided and kind of. Kind of unfair to put that on the kids before they have a chance to develop their own sense of identity. But I'd never seen it that way in my entire life. So it was that process of just sort of, bit by bit, the layers get stripped away and you start recontextualizing everything. Recontextualizing the stories, recontextualizing the feelings. Even I remember feeling the spirit, or what I. What I thought of as the spirit, being with all my friends, smoking weed and drinking and stuff and being like, oh, my gosh, I.

Austin Archer [01:52:47] That's what this is, is. It's community and family and the feeling of belonging and the feeling of. Of being seen and feeling like this is. This is a good place for me to be. I'm safe here. And I love. It's a feeling of love. I love these people. It's a feeling of inspiration, of. I'm inspired by these people, by this place and it. And realizing that what I've been taught my whole life is that Mormons have a monopoly on that field feeling, a monopoly on the relationship to that feeling. Even being taught that, like, the only way I can. I can feel that feeling as a baptized, fully participating member is if I am living a worthy lifestyle.

Austin Archer [01:53:27] Because if I'm out of touch with the worthiness, then I won't. I will lose that feeling, and I will feel dark and depressed and sad. So noting that I can. That that feeling didn't leave, my relationship with the spirit didn't leave. And then I went, okay, so what is the spirit? Is it the spirit, or is it just. Just a human sensation that everyone has access to?

Austin Archer [01:53:50] And so, yeah, that was kind of the process, just stripping back layers, having experiences one after another that kept validating my hypothesis, coming up with a new hypothesis, continually having it validated over and over again to the point where I felt like I had earnestly, sincerely, with good intentions, examined this thing. And I hadn't gotten answers back that I had expected to get, but I couldn't deny the answers. I was. Was getting that time and time again. I would run the experiment and I would run the scenario, and time and time again, I was getting the answer back that I. That what I was told growing up just wasn't accurate.

Carah Burrell [01:54:27] Yeah, I love all of that. You kind of went through things like, I didn't have to ask a question because I was like, how do you recontextualize your spiritual experiences? Or, like, those EFY experiences that you felt like, you know, really tied you to the church. And it just sounds like with enough experience and being that kind of outspoken, kind of gregarious person who wants to be friends with people, you can't help but just see other people in their experiences, relating it to your own and realizing maybe the things I was taught aren't holding up. So that's kind of what I'm hearing. And like, the more experiences that you had, you just, like, slowly worked your way through all of this.

Carah Burrell [01:54:59] So I don't know, John, where you want to go next. I just. My next question is how, as you're working through this, are you still able to stay in relationship, relationship with, you know, believing family, believing friends? Do you just not talk about the church? Do you talk about your process as you're. As you're slowly getting out of it? How did your relationships with Mormons kind of just go from that place? Because it feels like once you. You recognize these things, it's hard not to share with other people.

Life After Leaving the Church

Austin Archer [01:55:25] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:55:25] And if you are. Are you the type of person who you're like, I don't want to tell you the truth that I found about the church.

Austin Archer [01:55:31] Yeah, it is hard. You know, I don't want to. I don't want to yuck anybody's yum, and I don't want to, you know, rain on anybody's parade. And if people are managing to. To live the lifestyle that they live without hurting other people, I'm happy to leave them to it. And to say, you're just fine. If you're not hurting anybody, if you're not causing anybody.

Austin Archer [01:55:51] Anybody unnecessary pain, then I think you're fine. Certain things that, I mean, the first few years of me being out were very difficult because like I said, I was the only person in my family. Family. I was the only one. And it was. It was just kind of this thing that was looming over us, and I preferred to not talk about it. I would. I would even tell them, I'd say, let's just not. We don't have to do it, you know, but every once in a while, it would just sort of bubble up and it would just happen and it would be there, and all of a sudden we're in a conversation, and multiple times it happened where it would be my entire family in a room surrounding me, and it would be me against

John Dehlin [01:56:26] all the RM siblings.

Carah Burrell [01:56:28] Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:56:28] And they would. And I would be. And I would do, guys, look what's happening right now. Like, I'm in a corner and you Guys are cornering me, and I'm like, look what's happening. I don't. I don't feel comfortable right now. You know, And I. And. But it wasn't.

Austin Archer [01:56:41] It just was very hard. It was. It was very hard. I was. It really. It challenges them in a way that they don't necessarily. That they didn't ask to be challenged because they have to go. You seemed so in. You seemed so confident of this. What happened to you? That didn't happen to us. What. What happened? And that even happened once. My father asked me, we were on a family vacation to go watch the University of Utah play Notre Dame. And we were in Chicago, and we were in this hotel. And my dad asked me in his hotel room. He said, can I just ask you sincerely, just what.

Austin Archer [01:57:16] What. What happened? What? Because you were. You were so in. And then what happened? Happen? And I asked him, I said, hey, do you actually want me to. To say, do you actually want an answer? And he said, yeah, no, I want an answer. And I said, okay, I'm gonna say it, but I feel like you're not gonna like it. And he goes, no, tell me the answer. I said, well, I. I genuinely searched. I was. I thought I would be proven wrong. I thought I would. I would find out that the church is true and that I was stupid to think that it wasn't.

Austin Archer [01:57:49] But I genuinely went out looking for. To kind of examine the church from another angle and see if I could learn more about it and learn more about myself and about my faith. And what I found out about myself and about this church and for me is that I don't think that it's correct. I think that it's just.

Austin Archer [01:58:07] Just like any other religion. I think that it's just crafted from the mind of a man and, like, what a mind to craft something like this and to be so successful and to have it roll across the entire world. But I don't think that it's special or. Or unique or different from any other organization. And. And, yeah, he didn't like that. And he wasn't particularly ready to happen. Hear that? There were times early on when I was the only one that were very hard where I couldn't necessarily keep my mouth shut. Like, I had a really hard time keeping my mouth shut about Proposition 8 happening in California.

Austin Archer [01:58:38] It was very hard to. To not talk to my family members and friends about that because I felt so strongly about. About how wrong it was and how transparently bigoted it was. And that kind of goes into that territory of, like, hey, live and let live and I'll leave you to yourself if you're not hurting people. But if you're actively doing something that I think is very harmful and hurtful, I'm gonna have a hard time not saying something about it. And again, early on it really felt like I didn't have a lot of support on my side, on my team team, with my friends and with my extended family.

Austin Archer [01:59:16] It felt like it was kind of like me holding down the fort for this other perspective and everybody else. So I didn't, I learned to, I learned what to pick my, my moments. And mostly I just avoided it.

Austin Archer [01:59:31] But yeah, Proposition 8 happened. Wound up being the thing that helped my brother, who wound up doing Mormon expression, get out of the church. Because we had this, this, we had this knockdown, drag out fight on my parents front lawn really till like three in the morning. We're not throwing fists but just, just being harsh with each other really.

John Dehlin [01:59:51] Tell us about that.

Austin Archer [01:59:52] And it was about Prop 8 and it was, Prop 8 was happening.

John Dehlin [01:59:56] And so for those who don't know, that's when the Mormon Church actively worked, spent over $40 million plus volunteer effort to try to successfully take same sex marriage away from a sovereign U.S. state, the state of California. That happened in 2008.

Austin Archer [02:00:14] Yeah, they wanted to make sure successful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:16] And they denied that they spent any money doing it and then they were shown to have lied about it.

Austin Archer [02:00:20] Yeah, they, they, they were one of the biggest contributors and one of the biggest, the biggest. Yeah. And my brother was very devoted to the church at the time and, and Adam was. Yeah, he was very devoted. He had a family in the church and kids.

Austin Archer [02:00:38] And I remember him telling me things like if you think that there's not an agenda to keep this going and then to come for the church and to try to take the church down and to destroy our way of life, you're crazy. And I said, I remember saying to him, dude, listen to yourself. You're talking about people like they get together in underground bunkers and they, they roll out a map and they say first we, we get gay marriage and next we like, we indoctrinate the children. Like you like that's not what's happening. It's just people trying to live a life with dignity. It's just people trying to exist.

Austin Archer [02:01:14] And you're talking about them like they, they all know each other and they get together and they say, is everyone clear on the plan? Here's the plan, you know, and he goes, he goes, no, they're going to try to take down the temples. They're going to try to. To say that the temple is discriminatory, and they're going to make it so that we can. Can't live the way we live. And I just, I remember telling him on that. The front lawn, I said, you're a bigot, man. And it breaks my heart, but you, You've got a bigoted stance on this. And I also told him, I said, you say things that I've heard you say in front of your kids that, that you don't know if one of your kids is going to be gay.

Austin Archer [02:01:47] And I. I don't want one of your kids if they are gay. Hearing that. Growing up, like, I. It's hard for me to stand by, and we were not seeing eye to eye. But this experience that I have with my brother is one of the reasons why I still do what I do on social media, because I. I witnessed the process of someone's heart changing and someone's mind changing.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] So something positive came out of that fight.

Austin Archer [02:02:07] Yeah. Yeah. And I also witnessed that. It. People always say, like, well, you got to try to come in with a really soft touch, but not always. Sometimes what people need is, Is some really blunt, straightforward. This is it. It's going to hurt to hear. It's going to be hard to hear it. I mean, think about, like, how you. How you get through, like, a breakup or a divorce. It's like, sometimes what has to happen is the message needs to be hard because if you go really soft and go, I think we're sort of growing apart or sometimes what needs to happen is I'm not in love anymore.

Austin Archer [02:02:36] You know, something like that, that hurts. It's painful, but it allows the other person the clarity. And so my brother and I had that fight. And I definitely left thinking, well, that didn't accomplish anything. That was. Was just all that happened is both of us got our. I. I feel. I feel bad that I said mean things to my brother. I felt really bad that I called my brother a bigot. I felt really bad that I questioned his parenting. I felt really bad. Well, he comes to me a few months later and we're. We're on another family trip. We were on a family church history trip.

Austin Archer [02:03:07] We were going to see the Joseph Smith house in New York, and we were going to go to Palmyra and all this stuff. We're in New York City, city. And I, My family all knew that I did my own thing. And I, I told him, I'm gonna go see a show by myself. And I'm gonna go get a drink at a bar, you know? And I. They went, okay. And I went off and I went to go get a drink, and my brother texted me, and he said, hey, where are you? Where are you getting a drink? And I said. I told him the bar.

Austin Archer [02:03:32] It was a bar in Times Square. And I was like. And he goes, I'm gonna come over and meet you. And I'm thinking in my head, like, oh, geez, my brother's gonna come over and. And try to convince me why I'm doing the wrong things with my life and whatever. He comes in, he sits down next to me, and he orders a Heineken. And he. And he starts talking to me, and I just go, what are you doing? And he just goes, I just wanted to let you know what's been going on in my life the last four or five months. And he said, ever since we had that conversation, I just haven't been able to get out of my head that you won the argument and that I knew you had won the argument, and I didn't have a good response to anything you were saying.

Austin Archer [02:04:06] And he goes, so a lot of my anger that night was just me being frustrated that I knew you were right. And he goes, and I don't want to be a bigot. I don't want to be a bad person. He goes, I have friends who are gay, and it breaks my heart that I've been letting them down and that I've been treating them poorly and. And treating them different. And he's like, and I just don't want to be that person anymore. And he goes, so it's. It's been very hard because I've had to sort of look myself in the mirror and say, who am I?

Austin Archer [02:04:29] What kind of guy am I? And he goes. So I went to my wife. Went to his wife at the time, told her what he was experiencing. She said, thank God. I feel the exact same way. So she even came to the bar with. And all three of us all of a sudden had this new relationship. Now I wasn't alone in the family. I had teammates. And I was like, oh, my. It was like one of the best days of my ex Mormon life was finding out that it felt like the first time I had experienced something that Mormons would call, like a miracle. Like, it really felt like a person who I never thought would change his mind coming to me and saying, you helped me change my mind.

Austin Archer [02:05:04] You helped me see clearly. And I still operate, in a way, on my podcast and on social Media and in content where my message can be blunt, sometimes it can be really direct. And I get a lot of pushback on people who say, like, I wish you would. I wish you would try to deliver it softer. And my. My personal belief is that I'm like, I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings. I'm just trying to be honest, and I'm trying to be clear. And I feel like when I try to soften it, I.

Austin Archer [02:05:35] I take away the honesty of the message a little bit. I dilute it. I dilute the honesty of the message. And I'm not doing it to hurt your feelings. I'm doing it to try to make it clear. And it might hurt to hear it. It might be hard to be confronted with some of that stuff. My advice to people who it's hard for is push through that feeling. Push through the difficulty of that feeling. Be brave enough to confront the pain of having your beliefs examined in a way that. That is uncomfortable. Be brave enough to keep moving in that direction and. And see if there's something to it, you know, because my experience outside of the church is typically my best evolutions as a person come. Come with great discomfort and come with a lot of pain. And I don't get anywhere good without pain.

John Dehlin [02:06:23] I love it.

Austin Archer [02:06:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:25] Just for those who don't know, so his brother, Adam Archer, you know, we. We've recently, this year brought John Larsen on the Mormon stories. We revitalized, resuscitated the Mormon Expression catalog.

Austin Archer [02:06:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] His. Austin's brother Adam, who is. Is the Heineken purchaser in the story. It's Adam who ends up succeeding John Larsen as the host temporarily on Mormon Expression Podcast before Mormon Expression Podcast stopped for good. And so. So Adam, your brother. Yeah, you know, is a. Is a name that's familiar to me because he was John Larsen's successor for a little bit of time. So that's cool. Again, shout out to Adam. We mentioned him.

Austin Archer [02:07:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:06] At the beginning.

Austin Archer [02:07:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:08] So really quickly, like, I am. I am blown away. Well, first of all, what he just shared was kind of mind blowing to me. And Carrie, you were nodding your head as well, just because, like with Mormon stories, my strategy has always been be neutral, be. Be faith, you know, affirming, be safe, feel. Make sure Mormon stories feel safe to believing orthodox Mormon so that it won't become an echo chamber, so you won't create the backfire effect and so that they'll want to listen. And then maybe the stories will help, you know, the emotion and the compellingness of the stories will help lead them to truth if they're interested in the journey in truth.

John Dehlin [02:07:48] But what you just said said. And even Anthony Magnavasco, our time with him, he's like, always be humble, always be, you know, low key. And don't, don't fight, don't create agitation. Like, it's a different approach than what I've been taking. And that what often we argue and Carol, I'm always like, I'm always, and I don't mean this to like, do anything other than to say, you're awesome, but I'm always like, carol, we got to be neutral. We got to be faith affirming, we got to be safe. So I'm just wondering if you, you, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:08:17] Huge difference is somebody that you have a lifelong trust with as a family member is obviously a big difference between a podcast or somebody else.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] Yeah. Because your brother loved you, clearly.

Carah Burrell [02:08:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:26] Right.

Carah Burrell [02:08:26] Yeah. And I've had conversations like that when I was in the church with my, like, non believing family members where they'll say something. I just want to explain this dynamic in my, my very, like, previous very conservative, very, like, like fringy, like, bigoted Mormon mind that I was, that I was working in. And sometimes somebody who's an ex Mormon will say something to you that technically it's a flat out wrong thing, but you still put it in the, I'm Mormon, they're not Mormon. It's in the reject pile. Yeah, but then you have enough things where you're like, I don't have an argument against that. And you have to start paying attention more to the things you don't actually have good arguments for.

Carah Burrell [02:09:00] And you're like, all right, I'm going to take the ones that were in the trash pile that I immediately rejected as bad ideas. And as a Mormon, I had to sift through those ideas from my, from my non believing sister would be one of them.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] Them.

Carah Burrell [02:09:10] And it sounds like that same kind of conversation of like, all right, I actually don't have a good reason to be anti gay marriage like I thought I did. I actually need to examine these ideas a little bit better. And it takes, it took my sister saying hard things to me that I had to look at it and examine it and really come to terms with. If I believed it, did I believe it or did I just believe in a church that believed it? And if I believe in a church that believes it and I don't believe it, I'm just going to be on a diverging path.

Carah Burrell [02:09:34] Now where does that leave me as a Mormon person now. Right, right. So the more and more you add those things up of what does the church believe? What do I believe about that thing? People are calling me a bigot. You have to, you know, sort those things out. And it takes, it takes somebody that you trust and you love, regardless of them calling you a bigot.

Austin Archer [02:09:50] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:09:51] To actually be like, all right, I can handle that. That's hard. But I'll, I'll, I'll examine it. So that's super, super. Like, I mean, I. Somebody was saying that they were at work and an atheist and about to cry at how beautiful that story was, because we don't hear stories like that very often.

Austin Archer [02:10:07] Well, you know, and I will say the method that you use, John, on this podcast definitely works. And I think, you know, that, that after 16 years of doing this, that the, the approach that you take to sort of soften the blow of the message, but also make it faith affirming. And I think you've helped, and I know that you've, you've heard from many, many people over the years that you've helped lots of people sort of go through what's a very difficult transition.

Austin Archer [02:10:35] It's very difficult. And you help them go through it in a way that feels like they're still being honored. They're not being talked down to, they're not being told that they're idiots for thinking what they thought. And so I think that the approach that you take is absolutely a very humane and compassionate approach. And I definitely have my fair share of content that I think is in that space. But also, I think, I think Donald Trump changed some things for me because it was just like these people are responding to brute force. They're responding to someone who is delivering a message with a sledgehammer and not given any regard about who he's offending or making it.

Austin Archer [02:11:21] You know what I mean? And so I was kind of like, well, maybe I can push back with some of that flair and just kind of go, well, you know, if you guys like the direct speech.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] Yep, I'll give it. Well, let, let me reframe it just a tiny bit because. Okay. Mormon story strategy, I think, is proven to be pretty solid.

Austin Archer [02:11:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:39] But when I, when we counsel people about how to speak to believing family and friends, I always say less is more. Don't tell them about the problems. And usually it's to try and preserve their own capital, their own mental health, their own well being, their own safety in a social structure that can be, frankly, terrible or horrific. You know, high demand religions and, or cults, you can, there can be life ending consequences to coming out, to believing family and friends. So I usually encourage people to err on the side of less is more. Don't tell them details. Just be kind and mousy and quiet and let them figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:12:19] But don't, don't poop in your nest I think is what I basically tell them, them for their, to preserve their own health and well being in relationships. But, but I always know in the back of my head that there are, there are people who do want to know the truth but it's going to take a really direct and candid conversation to get them there.

Austin Archer [02:12:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:39] And that there's a cost to telling everyone less is more, stay quiet, keep it to yourself. And the cost is people like Adam that may have never moved if they hadn't have had that really direct, direct, intense, jarring conversation. So my advice of less is more minimalistic. Coming out comes at an expense of some people not hearing the things they need to hear to be able to make the, to come to the realization that they ultimately would want to come to.

Austin Archer [02:13:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] So that's the sacrifice. And I'm not saying there's a right answer. Well, but there's a sacrifice. There's a cost to what I've been recommending to people, people that now you're making me reconsider at times. Does that make sense?

Austin Archer [02:13:22] Yeah. In my experience with the methodology that I use is that happens slowly. What will happen is I will be really direct with someone and they won't like what I'm saying and they'll kind of push back and go like I don't like how you're talking to me. It might even get to the point where they say I can't talk to you anymore. This is like you're kind of hurting me feelings, you know. And I'll say, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. I'm just trying to answer your questions and just be direct with you. And they might have to walk away. Usually I don't, I don't have success in that first conversation.

Austin Archer [02:13:54] But as long as I've said what I've said and I've said it in a direct way and an honest way, the seed has been planted. And countless times now I've had friends come to me and go, it was that conversation we had. And I went home with that and I sat with that and like, and I've had, I have friends reach out with messages that'll say, I just want to let you know That a few years ago, I was kind of, of, we were talking on messenger or something and I was asking you about this thing and I didn't really like how you were talking to me about it.

Austin Archer [02:14:19] And I got really defensive. And that. That conversation helped a lot because you were saying things that I had no defense for. But I just, you know, but. And I'll always tell them, like, I want you to know, I'm not saying this to hurt your feelings, but I'm saying it because you asked. Because people will come and they'll be ready. They'll be like, well, what about this? You know, like, they've got their research ready. And I'm like, okay. Just so you know, just, you know, if we're going to do this like your dad. Yeah. And I'll be, you know. And so this happened again with my parents.

Austin Archer [02:14:45] And I think again, you're right about simple things. Less is more. Because sometimes just a simple statement can go a long way. My parents sat me down once and they showed me what I think was a really good talk. They showed me this talk by Elder Uchtdorf and they said, we want you to see this. This fantastic talk. And it was the doubt, your doubts, not your beliefs talk where he. Where in that talk he talks about. It was the first time I'd ever heard someone from the pulpit talk about the fact that we tend to think that people leave the church because they didn't have the moral backbone to handle it.

Austin Archer [02:15:16] They just wanted to be sinners. But he actually talks at general conference over the pulpit about the fact that we need to be more compassionate about the fact that people are leaving the church for all kinds of reasons. And it's not just because they were tricked by Satan or anything like, you know, and I was. I remember hearing that and going, oh, this is very progressive. Impressive of him to say. Because the message when I was growing up was if someone's. If someone leaves the church, it's because they've lost their way. It's because they are. They're off the path and they've just. They're. They've gone off the deep end.

Austin Archer [02:15:46] So I'm listening to it. But he lists all these different reasons why people might leave that he views as valid. And he leaves off what I think is the most important reason. And I know why he leaves it off, because he can't say this reason over the pulpit because to acknowledge this reason is to throw a whole wrench into a whole lot of things. But that's why just saying this is really Important. So my parents, we finished the talk and they go, what'd you think? And I went, I thought that was very progressive of him to say. And that was really, really cool. And they go, yeah.

Austin Archer [02:16:18] So, I mean, like, you know, that. What do you think about that? And I said, well, I think he. For he's leaving off one of the most important reasons why people leave the church. And they went, what's that? I said, they don't believe it. And he just goes. And then they go, well, I mean, well, but like, maybe they don't believe it because they're opening themselves up to other things. And I said, no, what happens to most people is they're doing a sincere examination of their beliefs and of what they've been taught and a sincere, objective, unemotional look at it, really. Just trying to just get down to brass tacks about what it is.

Austin Archer [02:16:52] And when they look at it that way and they allow themselves to ask questions that they've never allowed themselves to ask before, they. They determine on their own that they don't actually believe it. And they're willing to be brave enough to acknowledge that they don't believe it in front of their friends and family and take the penalties that come with that. And so. But just saying that to my parents, that the actual most important reason why people leave is they don't believe it.

Austin Archer [02:17:16] What that does to a believing person is because, first of all, I know, because I've lived this experience, what you think is, is how could that possibly be true? If you've gone to all the meetings that I've gone to, and if you've read all the things that I've read and if you've had all the experiences that I've had, how could it possibly be true that the conclusion that you've come to is that it's not true and that it's not right, that doesn't make sense to me. Something else must have happened. But when you look at a person and just say, I sincerely examined it for myself, I looked at everything, and I sincerely examined how I was being taught.

Austin Archer [02:17:49] And I allowed myself to examine completely, not just partially, not just through the lens that the Church allows me, but I allowed myself to fully go into all possibilities. And what I came back with was, I don't think that it's true actually, that alone, just that simple idea is a big seed to plant in someone's head, that it's possible for a person of sound mind who, you know, like, look at me, I'm not being taken over by dark Spirits. I'm not suddenly a murderer or, you know, like a terrible person with no moral character. I'm still the same son that you've. This whole time, the only thing that's changed is I've allowed myself to come up with my own determination about this thing.

Austin Archer [02:18:30] And so I think that, yeah, I think you're right. Less is more. Because there's a lot to, to be said too, about just modeling and demonstrating that you're still you. I know. I remember it was very important for me to like drink around my family on trips and stuff like that because I wanted everyone to see, I just want everyone to see that I'm still me. That I'm gonna have a beer while we're watching this thing and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna change. I'm not gonna become someone different. Like I'm, I just want everyone to see that, like I'm, it's, I'm still this person because just that simple idea that, oh, you're not lost in darkness and miserable, you know, which the ironic thing is I was a very depressed person though, from her, you know, my whole twenties and I was, I had terrible anxiety and I was miserable and I, you know, was suicidal and all that stuff.

John Dehlin [02:19:24] So, you know, that's gonna be part two.

Austin Archer [02:19:25] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:19:27] I have a theory. I want to drop this theory on you. I was, I've listened to Chandler Roberson, whose episode came out a couple days ago, talking about the anxiety she had on her mission about trying to teach people who. She's like, these people know more. They're 56 years old. Why am I trying to teach them about the gospel? Gospel? My sister had similar problems on our mission. And it sounds like the way you talked about with the people who are asking you smart, philosophical questions, that you're a very introspective person and very self aware of the things you don't know. And when you put it in those terms, it's, it feels like not everyone can have those harsh brute force conversations with people because they're not super self aware of when they are crossing the line.

Carah Burrell [02:20:05] So as just an outside person who just met you today, it feels like that you're so self aware that you know when you can say something and it'll be, be the right type of jab that not everyone can do because not everyone is that self aware to say I shouldn't serve a mission or I, I don't know what the crap I'm talking about. But then when you do know what it's Talking about people take you seriously. That's kind of what I get. And so for the, for the type of content John and I make and the type of message that we give to Mormons who are in these conversations with believing family and friends.

Carah Burrell [02:20:32] Yeah, it's like the, the less is more motto is good and like you want to be as safe as possible, but if you're the right type of person and you know exactly like what you're doing, sometimes that's where I think the type of brute force can really get somebody to come face to face with. What are your beliefs? Do you really believe that? Let's re examine it.

Austin Archer [02:20:51] Yeah, well, yeah, and it's, it's like, it's also, I mean, I've always been very confident about having sincere conversations with Mormon people because one thing that I know, I have an advantage going into any conversation with them if they want to go, I want to actually talk to about this thing. And I don't know what their intent is. I'm like, are you trying to fight or do you actually want to talk? I don't know. I go in cautious. But I, I always think I've got an advantage in the conversation because I know both sides and you only know yours. So like I know all your arguments.

Austin Archer [02:21:20] You're not like, the likelihood that you're going to say something to me that I haven't heard before and that I haven't already thought through is very low. But there's a much higher likelihood that I'm going to say an idea to you that you haven't ever dared to even consider. You know, so there's also a chance

John Dehlin [02:21:34] you have a lot more information than they do.

Austin Archer [02:21:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there. So I'm like, I'm, I would be very surprised withheld from Mormons. Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:42] About the church's basic history, you know,

Austin Archer [02:21:45] and so when people want to have a conversation, I'll go, yes, I will. I'll just let you know that I'm going to be straightforward with you and if you can handle that, then let's do it. But if you think that that's going to be too much for you, then I understand, you know, we don't have to do it it. But, and then, you know, like in comment sections and things like that and talking to people, it's like, I never, I try to never take low blows with people. I try to just be direct and just say, I'm just being straightforward with you. I'm not being, I'm not being rude, I'm not Trying to.

Austin Archer [02:22:11] To insult you. I'm just telling you what the problems with your position are that I see. You know, if you want to come back and because I'm always open and excited for someone to prove me wrong, I'm like, go ahead, like, you know, blow up my position. Like, I would love to. To be able to go. I once thought this and now I think this because someone just rocked my world with a really.

John Dehlin [02:22:31] Ironically, that's the signal of a strong position.

Austin Archer [02:22:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:35] When you're inviting people to tear it down. And the sign of a weak position is when you're terrified that anybody's gonna say anything that's gonna.

Carah Burrell [02:22:42] Also when you don't have an ego about it, you're like, yeah, like, I'll change my mind with new information. Please present it.

Austin Archer [02:22:47] That's how science works. They're like there. It works by trying to disprove prove the hypothesis, not by, not by seeking all of the evidence that supports the hypothesis, but saying, I'm going to try every way I possibly can to make this not work. And if it keeps working, then it's gonna. Every time it keeps working, it's going to bolster up my feeling that this is right, you know.

Carah Burrell [02:23:07] And I just want to read one comment. I think it's from your friend Christopher who said awesome. And I had those kind of conversations that changed me. I'm one of those old friends. Thank you, Austin.

John Dehlin [02:23:17] And he was on your podcast.

Austin Archer [02:23:18] He was on my podcast and he wrote a book about a book called Anti Mormon Literature. That's great. It's a really great.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] We'll put it in the show notes.

Austin Archer [02:23:25] Yeah, it's fantastic.

Carah Burrell [02:23:26] Where is it available on like he

Austin Archer [02:23:28] self published on Amazon and it's Christopher Shennefeldt is his name. And what a great title, right? Anti Mormon Literature. Like it's a fantastic title because that's the. That is the catch all term that we're taught growing up is anything that is critical of this is anti Mormon literature.

John Dehlin [02:23:41] Anything that makes us uncomfortable. Anything that's factual.

Austin Archer [02:23:44] Anything that is anti Mormon literature.

John Dehlin [02:23:46] T. Yeah.

Austin Archer [02:23:46] So he just went, I'm just gonna cut right to the chase and just say, sure, I'll call it what you will call it.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] And sounds like Christopher is going to be our next guest on Mormon Stories podcast.

Carah Burrell [02:23:54] Yes.

Austin Archer [02:23:55] Yeah, he's great. And, and yeah, he's one of those people that I. We talked in college and he was not super receptive to what I was saying and I was like, that's fine. And he went on a mission and everything and then years later went, he was at Weaver. Yeah. He said, thanks for that conversation. And I was like, yeah, that's powerful. You know, so them.

John Dehlin [02:24:12] Well, I, I, I'm, we're k and I are talking off, off screen about maybe doing this in two parts.

Austin Archer [02:24:18] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:24:19] But before we. There's one really big question I have. It's like you're not going to be able to answer. It's impossible to answer. But I'm gonna ask it anyway. Like you, you know, this is like we're almost at 1600 probably hours of Mormon Stories podcast episodes in 2021, almost 2022. I've interviewed a lot of Mormons.

Austin Archer [02:24:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] And I've interviewed a lot of Mormons that have left Mormonism. It is almost unheard of. Like I said maybe an hour ago, for someone to reach that point of like graduating from high school, orthodox Mormon in Utah believing and then choosing to step off that train.

John Dehlin [02:24:58] But, but if they do step off the train, usually it's like, oh, well, I started partying and then I fell from grace. But they maintain their beliefs and even if they went the Jack Mormon route, they, they either came back to the church at some point and, and got re engaged or they had to go do some processing.

John Dehlin [02:25:18] But, but you did something that is almost unheard of, which is, you know, and by the way, I was thinking about my own high school years and even early college years. I had all the same doubts. You, you did. I divided the number of, of, you know, Mormons in the world by the number of people in the world and got the point.002%.

Austin Archer [02:25:40] Man, this plan's.

John Dehlin [02:25:41] And I'm like, this is a stupid plan. I went through the pre1990 temple ceremony and I did the throat slitting thing and I felt horrible and I disemboweled myself, you know, with my arms and did pele l. Yeah. And I looked at my brother, I'm like, what in the crap?

Carah Burrell [02:25:58] Right?

John Dehlin [02:25:58] And I, but, but I had all those doubts. But I like, no, I gotta, I gotta, I can't get off the train. Like, it's still true. So like here's the impossible question. How did you do it? How did you, how did you have the. And again, this is even asking you to like boast or brag, which again, you're not gonna want to do. But aren't you wondering, Carah, like how we did it?

Carah Burrell [02:26:20] Like so many self confident, self assured person in front of us at this chair who, who from a young age and acting and everything that you know who you are, and you couldn't do anything that felt disingenuous to you, as that's kind of how I see. Does that resonate.

John Dehlin [02:26:34] But almost no Mormon ever makes this choice.

Austin Archer [02:26:37] So it's, I'm just a really awesome person. Yeah, I agree. I'm a really great guy.

John Dehlin [02:26:46] Question. But I mean, like, really aren't Carah, aren't you envious, like, listeners, viewers? Aren't you, like, thinking, like, man, I wish I'd figured it out before two years of admission, before college, before deciding my career, before getting married, before having kids. I wish I could have figured it out and acted with integrity and courage, knowing that you'd be facing your parents being disappointed in you, your bishop, all your older siblings, your whole community, all your extended family going, well, look, Austin, Austin fell away. Austin is now in the great and spacious building. Austin's a huge disappointment. Almost no Mormon ever makes this choice at age 18 or 19, and you freaking did it. And I just wonder. You're, you're kind of like a unicorn.

Austin Archer [02:27:35] You're right. You're, you're absolutely right about it being a very hard question to answer because I don't know the answer. I have this, I have the same question all the time about, about getting sober. I, I, I always wonder, why was I able to do it? Why was I able to get it? Why was I able to want it bad enough in the three and a half years that I've been sober, I've had friends die of this disease, and I just watched that happen. And I go, like, what? Why did, why weren't they able to do it? Why weren't they able to want it? Why?

Austin Archer [02:28:07] They, they went to the same meetings I went to. They heard the same message I heard. They heard what we needed to do to get, to get sober and to stay, stay healthy. Why was I able to do it and they weren't? And I don't know the answer to that question and I don't know. I don't know why I was able to want it bad enough and why.

Austin Archer [02:28:26] What I think with the church is, ironically, is I was trying so hard to be the best Mormon in a different way than other people were trying to be. I wanted to know everything. I wanted to really. No, and I wanted to approach it like a scientist and go, I'm going to try to disprove this thing so that I, so that I.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] That's an act of faith. Weird.

Austin Archer [02:28:50] Yeah, no, totally. I had to.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] I believe it so much. I'm going to make it face the scrutiny I, Exactly.

Austin Archer [02:28:56] And that's what happened is I wanted to be, I wanted to be the kind of missionary who any counter argument, because what was happening is these kids I was going to school with were asking me questions that I didn't have answers to and they were saying, what are you going to say if someone asks you this? And I, I'd go, I don't, I don't know. And it was making me, it was really rocking because I wanted to be a good missionary and I wanted to serve a really fruitful mission. And I, and I really, I've always loved debate and I've always loved the process of forming an argument and how you come about feeling secure in an argument.

Austin Archer [02:29:26] And nothing bothers me more than when I don't have a good argument for something. And when, when my argument is just, well, just because, just because, do it because it's good, that doesn't work for me. And so it was ironically the process of trying to become a more well rounded Mormon person. Trying to be the kind of Mormon person who goes, I now have an answer for that because I went out and did a little slumming. I went out and like I stepped outside of the church and I went and I tried some things that gave me some new perspective. And now I'm, I'm the kind of, because the kind of Mormons that I loved when I would meet them were people who had been through some, some stuff.

Austin Archer [02:30:05] When I would meet people who would like, who had a story of like drug addiction or homelessness and like, then they came to the church, those seemed like my kind of people, the kind of people who really knew some stuff and for them they really knew the church worked because it saved their life, it gave them new life, it gave them new breath. And so I was a person who just had only ever done this thing. And what I wanted was to, to become, to have a stronger testimony and a more confident testimony by going through the process of exposing it to the scrutiny. Now how I was able to want that at 18 years old, why I was able to want that, I can't tell you.

Austin Archer [02:30:46] And that's one of those mysteries of determinism. Do I make choices or am I just acted upon by forces that I don't control? Because, because most of my choices are dictated by my emotions and the way that I feel and my desires. And I don't ever consciously desire things. I just, I just am, I just have them, I just have desires. So I don't really know how or why I was able to do It. I just know that it was, what I was trying to do was to become more confident in my beliefs and what it wound up doing was taking me in a whole other direction. So I love it.

John Dehlin [02:31:24] Well, I guess if I'm going to try and make sense of. Seems like I valued truth, encouraged and integrity as a Mormon, but I also valued obedience and I valued faith and even blind faith. And it sounds like you really, really, really valued truth and integrity and courage over. Yeah, a lot of the other values that may. Maybe I valued community. Maybe I valued being liked. Maybe I valued again, obedience and faith. Maybe I valued those things so much that I, I didn't allow myself to get tipped. But it sounded, sounds like you valued integrity, authenticity, courage, and maybe empathy for others in a way that, that made it so you were, you. You couldn't do anything but follow the truth wherever it led.

Austin Archer [02:32:25] Yeah, you know, because I mean, I absolutely value being liked and being accepted by my community and all that stuff. What I couldn't abide was I was just like, I'm not going to be able to pretend this thing. I'm not going once. And once I started to, to come to certain realizations, I. It was heartbreaking because I knew I'm letting everybody down. I'm letting my family down, I'm letting my friends down, I'm letting my community down, all these people who helped raise me, all of the people in my ward, I'm letting all of them down. But I couldn't unknow it. I couldn't. I couldn't pretend like I, I hadn't thought the thoughts I'd thought.

Austin Archer [02:33:05] And so, yeah, it was, it was just like authenticity and integrity and honesty became kind of my credo and kind of the thing that I sort of base my life on. Which is weird because it's still something I struggle with. It's still something that's very hard for me. Like, I, in many ways I'm a person who's incapable of not being myself. And like I'm almost honest to a fault. And then in many ways, like, like my people pleasing tendencies, I get into trouble where I can't be direct enough with people and I skirt around certain things that are uncomfortable because it's someone I care about and I'm trying to preserve a feeling there or something or it's, you know, it's someone I want to work with and I don't want to tell them I'm not available for that thing that you want to do.

Austin Archer [02:33:49] So I say I can do it and I can't and then I get myself into trouble because I'm spread too thin. You know, I, I still have to work at honesty, like I think anyone does. But, but I've had people ask me in live streams that I do, they'll say, like, what's your life philosophy? And what I usually come back with is just try to be yourself, first of all, figure out who you are, and then just try to be that person and just try really hard to just honor that person. That's what's going to make you interesting. If you want to be a content creator, that's what's going to make you, you know, someone that people want to gravitate toward is because you're you.

Austin Archer [02:34:23] And don't get caught up in trying to sound like someone else or don't borrow someone else's ideas. Make sure that the ideas that you think are yours for a reason because you fought for them, because you've tried to, you know, develop your own worldview.

Austin Archer [02:34:38] And I definitely, you know, for a lot of my life, like, the fact that I left the church at 18, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I've worn as a badge of honor. I've, I've thought of it for a long time in my adult life and thought, I think it's pretty cool that I did that when no one else was doing it, when I was the only one in my family doing it.

Austin Archer [02:34:56] And again, I go back to, to, like, I don't know how the hell I got the gumption to do that. I don't know how the hell I got the idea that it would be okay if I did that.

Austin Archer [02:35:07] But I definitely look back at it and think, even with all of the stuff I went through in my 20s with depression and alcoholism and anxiety and all this stuff, I wouldn't change it. I don't look at that and go, ah, darn, I made the wrong choice. I think that all of that stuff was just a process of me trying to, to figure out life on my own and say, like, I'm, if, if I'm gonna live this life, it has to be, I have to be the one calling the shots, you know, for better or worse.

John Dehlin [02:35:38] Well, one of my heroes in life is a character. I don't even know how much they really existed. But it's Sir Thomas Moore from the movie A Man for All Seasons. And I, ironically, I, I, I watched the film, film at my BYU Theater and Film Art analysis class as a sophomore, I think, at byu. Yeah, but it's this member of the court of King King Henry VII's court, who King Henry VIII is trying to divorce his wife, but he wants church or social approval to be able to make this really harsh change.

John Dehlin [02:36:13] And so he tries to get his friend, who's super well respected, Sir Thomas Morgan Moore, to endorse his change. But Sir Thomas Moore is also a man of faith and a man of principle who doesn't feel comfortable endorsing, you know, the getting rid of your wife. But he also doesn't want to lie and misrepresent things and cave to the pressure of the king.

Austin Archer [02:36:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:35] And he has integrity and he ends up paying a big price for it. And so I really value integrity and I, I, I conceive of your story, this part one of your story as a story of integrity. And it's very inspiring to me.

Austin Archer [02:36:51] I appreciate that. It's nice of you to say.

John Dehlin [02:36:53] Yeah. And I think it's a great model for other people. Figure out who you are and then be that person and try not to be anything else. Love it. All right, well, I think we should do this interview in two parts and the main reason why is because, because I like the idea of the first one being about your faith journey.

Austin Archer [02:37:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:14] And having the SEO and the title around that. And then part two being about your journey with, with alcohol and alcoholism.

Austin Archer [02:37:21] Fantastic.

John Dehlin [02:37:22] And having the SEO be around that.

Austin Archer [02:37:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:37:25] So if, if it's okay, what I'm going to do is thank all our live stream listeners for being a part of this. Thanks all our listeners for listening. This has been amazing. Carah, I want to thank you you for joining us. It's always lovely to have you here.

Carah Burrell [02:37:39] Yeah, thanks. This was really, really fun. Really vibing with a lot of your story. I loved every part of it. Super interesting.

John Dehlin [02:37:46] Yeah. And so also though, part two isn't just about alcoholism like it's about, it's about your journey trying to become that actor. Trying to.

Austin Archer [02:37:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:59] Be a public figure, social social media figure or actor or performer. Former. And how you hit rock bottom maybe in many ways trying to figure that out. And how you both became an alcoholic, conquered alcoholism, and now you're kind of starting to live your dream as a social media influencer, actor, performer. And so it'll inspire people in two ways. How to overcome an addiction, but also how to stick with your dream. And, and so, so I guess what I'm saying to listeners of viewers is don't go away. Stay tuned. We're coming right back for part two with Austin Archer, world famous tiktoker A million followers. Podcaster, actor, extraordinaire. But. But part two, I think, might even be more inspiring and compelling than part one.

Austin Archer [02:38:50] Yeah, no, I think that's when it gets good.

Carah Burrell [02:38:53] They should go check out all of your TikToks, if they haven't already.

Austin Archer [02:38:56] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:38:56] Everyone's like, I want to know more about this guy. Take a break. Go to the bathroom, get yourself a snack. Scroll through Austin's Tick Tock. Give your handle one more time.

Austin Archer [02:39:05] Your pal. Underscore Austin. Everything. Tick Tock. Instagram and Twitter. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:11] So people can check that out. And then your podcast is called.

Austin Archer [02:39:13] It's called People Pleaser with Austin Archer. Because I'm a big people pleaser.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] Okay.

Austin Archer [02:39:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:18] Well, is that on a platform or.

Austin Archer [02:39:19] It's on Spotify, Apple, podcasts, all that stuff, you know, so, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:22] Any other vehicles for you or products or offerings or websites or.

Austin Archer [02:39:29] You know, I'm on YouTube as well. Well, they can find my music, too. They can listen to my music on Spotify and Apple.

John Dehlin [02:39:34] Music.

Austin Archer [02:39:36] Oh, band Camp.

John Dehlin [02:39:38] No, no, no. What name?

Austin Archer [02:39:39] Oh, under what? Oh, it's just Austin Archer. Okay, so Austin Archer is the music.

John Dehlin [02:39:43] What type of genre?

Austin Archer [02:39:44] Oh, it's like singer, songwritery, folk, rock stuff, you know, but it kind of. I. I of kind.

John Dehlin [02:39:49] Kind of.

Austin Archer [02:39:49] One of the things that I do as a musician is like, I make albums where, like, every song is a different genre and stuff. So I've even had people tell me that they go, you do better if you would just commit to a genre. And I'm like, yeah, it's not as fun for me. I like flipping around.

John Dehlin [02:40:04] We should have had you bring your guitar and play some songs for us. But we. Oh, yeah, anyway. Yeah, okay, so Spotify, they can check out there as awesome.

Austin Archer [02:40:11] Spotify. Yep. Austin Archer.

John Dehlin [02:40:13] All right, well, thank you so much for part one. Thank you, Carah. Thank you, listeners and viewers. And don't go away. Join us for part two in just a little bit. Or if you're listening asynchronously, just jump right back on part two, because we're gonna have another amazing part two with Austin Archer. Thanks again, Austin.

Austin Archer [02:40:31] Oh, thanks. This is so much fun.

John Dehlin [02:40:33] All right, thanks, Carah. Bye, everybody.

Part Two Begins: Recap and Reintroduction

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1525

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign. And welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is December 27, 2021. We're between Christmas and New Year's during the break, and we are so super excited to have you back with us for part two of what Carah and I feel like has been a really a powerful, wise, thoughtful, interesting, and useful interview, maybe even impactful with the TikTok sensation. Social media sensation, musician, actor, jingle writer, Austin Archer. Hey, Austin.

Austin Archer [00:00:47] I'm happy to be back for part two.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:00:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] How'd you sleep?

Austin Archer [00:00:50] I slept okay. I watched some of part one last night, and then I was like, I got to go to sleep and stop.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] How'd you do it?

Austin Archer [00:00:57] I think I was. Everything that you said, you killed it. Yeah, I think I should keep doing this.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Yeah. Yeah, you should, like, have a podcast or something. Oh, wait, you do.

Carah Burrell [00:01:07] You're so good at talking. You should talk for a living. Oh, wait, you already do.

Austin Archer [00:01:10] Yeah. Yeah. My friends. My brother had this saying when I was growing up that he. Because I. I mean, I've just always been a very verbose person. Even as a kid, my brother did this thing where he went, there goes Austin. Non stop talker. Shut up. And all of my friends knew it. So they still say it when I'm an adult and I'm like, you know, I just had to embrace at some point that that's what I do. I'm a. I talk. So.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] So we had dinner with you last night, and I can honestly say the conversation was balanced between the three of us. And Carah and I, we can talk.

Austin Archer [00:01:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] So, I mean, you met your. I guess I'm saying you met your matches.

Austin Archer [00:01:44] That's good, right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:01:45] Yeah. We all have a lot to say, and we only have, you know, a few minutes together while you're in town.

Austin Archer [00:01:49] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:01:50] We only have many things we want to get off our chest and understand.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] We have 12 hours to say it, so we've got to hurry.

Carah Burrell [00:01:55] Today we only have 12 hours. No. So it's a short Mormon Stories episode today.

Austin Archer [00:01:58] John and I were both very famous at dinner last night, too.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Oh, we both got recognized.

Austin Archer [00:02:02] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] Carah was salty.

Austin Archer [00:02:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Carah was like, wait, how come no one recognized me?

Austin Archer [00:02:07] We were like, if we had just waited a little bit longer, Carah would have. Someone would have.

Carah Burrell [00:02:10] Yeah. John got recognized, Austin got recognized. And separate, different fans came up to them at this Indian place last night. Mockums. We want to do a shout out to them in Mill Creek. Delicious. It was like, kind of like cafe Rio style. Like, where there's, like, a bar.

Austin Archer [00:02:22] I am dead to the world.

Carah Burrell [00:02:25] That's just my babysitter, AKA my sister. So it's the reason I can do this job. It's all forgive. Care for a second for doing that. Anyway, Malcolm's delicious Indian food last night.

Austin Archer [00:02:33] That was great.

Carah Burrell [00:02:34] I was just opening the door for the patrons at the end of the night, just looking them in the eye to be like, do I look.

Austin Archer [00:02:39] You know what it was is they were too intimidated to say, can I get a picture with you?

Carah Burrell [00:02:43] Oh, that's all tonight.

Austin Archer [00:02:44] That's what you have to tell yourself is, like, that they see you and they're like, I can't. I can't walk up to her, you know? But they're like, that's. That's Carah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:02:51] That's what I hope for the.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] The Carah.

Austin Archer [00:02:53] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:02:54] I got recognized in the Target sheets aisle the other day. Hey, Annie. Shout out. So every once in a while, somebody knows this mug.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] On the. On the level of, like. I don't. What's a. What's a better word for the douchey? Douchey is probably not politically correct. What's a better word than douchey? Anyone know?

Austin Archer [00:03:11] I don't know. Smug?

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Or on the lameness scale, Talking about being recognized in public. Where does that rank on the lameness scale?

Carah Burrell [00:03:18] What.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] How lame were we just? Did we just.

Austin Archer [00:03:21] I mean, I'm the one who did it.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Level of lameness did we just reach?

Austin Archer [00:03:24] I'm the one who did it. And I just. I'm. I think for me, at this point, it's still me being, like, relatable, because I still am. Like, I'm just a guy who's just at the store sometimes and every once in a while, so I'm like. I'm still just, like, excited about it happening. I think if I was. If we were more.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] If you were Brad Pitt, basically.

Austin Archer [00:03:45] And I'm like, dude, someone came up to me the other day like, yeah, you're Brad Pitt. Yeah, shut up.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Yeah, but the dude that came up to you, and. And this is just fun. Hopefully. Hopefully you guys don't mind the banter, listening, reviewing. But the guy that came up to you, he clearly wasn't from the U.S. yeah, I think he was. I think he was. It seemed like he was from, like, India, the Asian subcontinent.

Austin Archer [00:04:05] Yeah, he was.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] I think he said he was gay, Right? He had a male partner.

Austin Archer [00:04:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] And he's. And I don't think he'd ever been lds. That was my sense yeah, but he's living in Salt Lake for some reason and he said that his partner, he didn't have TikTok, but his partner sent your TikToks to him because they made him smile and then made them feel good. And I was like, whoa. And for those of you don't know who are joining us for the first time, Austin archer has a TikTok channel that has close to a million followers.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] He, he also is a musician. He's got music on Spotify and on Band Camp. Is that what it's called? He's got an Instagram channel, He's got a YouTube channel. He's kind of an actor, musician, singer, songwriter, social media personality. We did a good three hours, two and a half, three hours yesterday about him being raised Mormon in Sandy, Utah and Boyd Key packers backyard basically in little factories, ground zero.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] And how he made kind of this really courageous step to step off the Mormon train after having been a full on super believing, you know, orthodox in at the win it kind of Mormon once he went to college at Weber State and I was really inspired by it. Please pause this if you haven't yet gone. Go back and watch that. It, it, it really is. It really was powerful. And I've done this again, like 1600 plus hours. I loved it. That was, that was yesterday. Is there anything else I should mention about. You want to mention the actual handle, your TikTok handle?

Austin Archer [00:05:47] It's your pal Austin on Tick Tock, Twitter, Instagram and Austin Archer on YouTube. Austin Archer on Spotify. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] But part of what's interesting about Austin is like none of the Mormons or ex Mormons know he was ex Mormon. I mean, very few, because he doesn't really, on his TikToks, he doesn't really make a point to talk about Mormonism or religion. It's more about social media. Kind of like social. Social commentary.

Austin Archer [00:06:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Observations, politics, humor.

Austin Archer [00:06:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] But it's not like going at religion, per se.

Austin Archer [00:06:23] Well, we talked about it last night. It's like I've been out of the church for 16 years and that's, that's almost as long as I was in the church. So it's a, you know, it's, it's been, I think I had my time to like really deconstruct and do it and now I'm just sort of like, I, I come back and revisit it every once in a while when I get to come on Mormon stories or something like that. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] So you, you, you left the church 16 years ago. I've been doing Mormon stories for 16 years. What does that say about you? Wow. You left it behind 16 years ago. I've been doing this for 16 years. What's wrong with me?

Austin Archer [00:06:57] Timing. I mean, that's great, though. I like that. That verisimil or that would. That would be what it is, that symmetry, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] Sixteen years, it's some type of synchronicity. Carrie, you were freaking up until like 1am making a TikTok or two. As you continue to grow, the more

Carah Burrell [00:07:14] say because I think I can hit 100,000 followers on our Mormon stories TikTok. I think I can do it today. I really do think, Austin, that will be the key. If I put it up enough Austin Archer videos on the Mormon stories channel today, I think that will go. We're at 91,000. I think we'll go to 100,000 today.

Austin Archer [00:07:30] 100K by 2022.

Carah Burrell [00:07:32] You got midnight. That's what I want. So I was up editing a bunch of ones and they already are going, like, kind of viral. They're doing really good.

Austin Archer [00:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] You were asking me yesterday whether you could do it by January 1st, and now you're saying you want to do it by tonight.

Carah Burrell [00:07:44] I smoked a little bit and I got really confident and I was like, I can do anything of a mind.

Austin Archer [00:07:49] I like it. I like it. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:07:51] So I have a lot of ammo, you could say of stuff that I'm going to post. I have like 12 TikToks that are like in my draft that I can just post like, like torpedoes out of a shoot. I just like go, fire, fire, fire.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] And there's a point I kind of really need to make. I had someone comment, john, why do you keep interviewing tiktokers? Like, after they saw I was interviewing you? And I just want to make a point. Like, people don't. If you don't get why we're interviewing tiktokers, you're not paying attention. You know, it shouldn't be lost on you that just last week a Mormon General Authority mentioned TikTok in the commencement address at BYU Idaho, saying specifically that if Coral Whore were alive today, who is the arch enemy of the Book of Mormon, if Kori Horror were alive today, he would be on Tick Tock and he would have a podcast. And by the way, Austin, you both are on Tick Tock and have a podcast, and so are we, right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:08:50] Yeah. Like, literally posted it on Instagram at the same time. We're like, am I the drama? Am I the villain? Are you talking about me?

John Dehlin [00:08:58] There.

Carah Burrell [00:08:59] Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:08:59] I also think that like, hey, like if, if, if you're still using the hot. Take that like Tick Tockers are just, you know, vapid people that aren't worth your time. Like, maybe you're not aware, but you're, you're watching TikToks, you're watching TikTok on Instagram, you're watching TikTok on Twitter, on Reddit, on Facebook. TikTok is everywhere. And whether or not you have the app, like you're watching TikTok and that's like the top of the funnel for Internet content right now. There was a time when it was just teenagers doing dances and mouthing scenes from their favorite TV shows. That time has long since passed. It is now like the number one social media app in the world.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] No, it was, I saw the news story like it beat Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, like what. Where else are people on these days?

Carah Burrell [00:09:42] Anyone says Twitch, I read an article about such and such. They're lying. They watched a TikTok about it.

Austin Archer [00:09:47] They don't admit it.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] It's the number one app on social media. And if you care about the things that Mormon Stories podcast cares about, which primarily is informed consent for Mormons and non Mormons, everyone in the world should know the truth about the church, good and bad. If you care about that and, or if you care about helping progressive and post Mormons figure out their lives after being in a high demand religion slash cult. If you care about those things, then you should care about any platform that's literally dominating earth right now. And so I'm. One of my proudest accomplishments for 2021 was, was Karen and I were joking about this. I told Carah she's brilliant. She said I'm brilliant. For recognizing her brilliance. Bringing Carah on to, to create a Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok channel was probably my best and for her as a co host was probably certainly my best choice of 2021.

Austin Archer [00:10:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] How does that feel?

Carah Burrell [00:10:51] Would you believe that not everyone wants to listen to a six hour podcast, but they will listen to one minute videos. Who would have thunk? Genius idea. We came up with.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] We have twice the followers on TikTok that we do on a YouTube channel that we've had for 10 plus years.

Austin Archer [00:11:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] And we did that in seven months.

Austin Archer [00:11:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] So that's, that's why we're interviewing people on TikTok.

Carah Burrell [00:11:09] That's why I can say because Austin Archer is on Mormon Stories this week, I am confident we can gain 10,000 followers on Mormon Stories just by showing like your very Articulate, well stated clips about your journey. I think a lot of people will want to understand more about the Mormon Church because such a prominent person on TikTok wants to talk about their experience in the church. Like, that's interesting. That's cool that you were able to build up a following and that we can like each like cross, promote and share different stuff, so.

Austin Archer [00:11:35] Well, that's. It's just, it's just every. There's so many different things that you can find on that app. There's. It's people. It's people deconstructing religion. It's people just, there's just scientists that just give you fun science facts. It's like tuning into like here, did you know this about the solar system? That blah, blah, you know?

John Dehlin [00:11:50] Totally.

Austin Archer [00:11:50] And it's just like, it's just. You're scrolling and it's a little bit of everything. It's people doing really, really funny sketch comedy that like they're getting hired to go write for SNL and stuff off of Tick Tock. It's people launching their music careers. It's like, it's, it's a lot more than what I think people think it is. So.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] So my brother, who's a, a software CEO, he has a tik tok channel called Enemy of Plants and he has over 200,000 followers just talking about veganism and vegan recipes and healthy eating and healthy diet and exercise. Alan Mount tells me he's always paying attention to fitness fitness channels on Tik Tok to learn how to be more fit. Like, yeah, like just, let's embrace it because it's here and it's. All the kids and all the teens and all the adults are on it, basically.

Austin Archer [00:12:36] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:12:36] Yeah. And John, I just want to correct one thing yesterday that you had such trouble saying. Like at the beginning of the podcast episode, you were like, we have Austin the Archer on who's like semi Internet famous. And it was almost like you didn't want to just admit that he's legitimately famous. Like, it was like you're Spencer W. Kimball who can't give out. Like that talk about how you don't want to give out kisses like pretzels you don't want to give out saying everyone's famous. Like it's like a treasured pretzel or something.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] You know why I do that? Sometimes people tell me that I'm famous, like Utah famous.

Austin Archer [00:13:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] I just hate that. For some reason I hate being called that. Well, it's because I don't think I am. But I hate it.

Austin Archer [00:13:09] That's what I was talking about. I kind of say it tongue in cheek, when I say, oh, you and I were really famous at the restaurant last night, because I think it's. I think it's kind of funny. And I think it's also, like, I don't. I don't think that about myself because I think in general, like, I live in Los Angeles and, like, I can go to the store in Los Angeles and no one. No one comes up. Like, nobody knows who I am or cares who I am and like, it. It's really. Yeah, no, yeah, no. You know, it's. It happens very rarely. And when it does happen, I, like, I try to encourage people.

Austin Archer [00:13:36] Like, no, you can come up and say hi, because, like, most. No one and no one around us is going to be like, oh, my gosh, why are they bothering him? Like, nobody knows why you're coming up and saying hi to me. Like, I think a million people spread out across the entire world still winds up being, you know, about the population

John Dehlin [00:13:51] of the Mormon Church, basically.

Austin Archer [00:13:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:13:54] It is like a law of averages. If you're in Utah and you talk about Mormonism a lot, you get recognized.

Austin Archer [00:13:58] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:13:59] In, you know, on a daily basis.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Yeah. But again, you don't talk about Mormonism. So that's why, you know, it was, like, 10 minutes at the restaurant and anyway, I think we've made the point.

Austin Archer [00:14:07] Yeah, yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] But. But I think, Carah, the point you made was most important is Austin's Tiktoks. And we. We want. We wanted to be able to play them on the podcast, but we're. We had some technical glitches. His podcasts are very fun. They're funny, but they're interesting. And they're really often very wise and insightful, whether they're talking about, you know, politics or the vaccine or, you know,

Austin Archer [00:14:31] critical race theory or the police.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Yeah, yeah. Transgender issues or LGBT stuff. Like, it's just. It's just valuable stuff, and it often goes viral. So, anyway, welcome back. Yesterday we talked about your faith journey. Today we're going to be talking about something very vulnerable. Like, I'm just thinking about, like, a thumbnail. Like, I've made mistakes in my life, and I don't know that I would want my biggest mistakes plastered on a thumbnail.

Early Substance Use After Leaving Mormonism

Austin Archer [00:14:57] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] But you were literally okay. Like, you even volunteered the thumbnail title, which is, like, post Mormon alcoholic. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And I guess we'll get into why you feel okay leading with something so vulnerable. So. But but that's what we're going to be talking about now is kind of like. And by the way, I wanted to say this yesterday, you know, you leave the church and we talk so much at the end of our episode about, like, all your friends and family that were still in and how hard that was.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] So many of us feel that pressure of like, well, they all are expecting me to screw up. Yeah, they're all expecting me to fail, to fall in a ditch to become an alcoholic. I always make the joke like, like, oh, all my parents think that, that we're going to become like an alcoholic or a sex worker if I leave the church. Not that there's anything wrong with, you know.

Austin Archer [00:15:50] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] But, but the point is, like, they're so, like, it's. So it's, it's. Let's talk also about, like, what it's like to actually in some ways fulfill the stereotype and what that's like. But I don't want to get ahead.

Austin Archer [00:16:02] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:16:02] Yeah. No, so.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] So where does your. So we left off with you losing your faith and coming out to everybody.

Austin Archer [00:16:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] And you were still at Weber State at that point.

Austin Archer [00:16:12] And we got into a little bit of, like, into the 20s and dealing with being the only person out in my family and that. And then my brother joining me and that helping because I suddenly had a kind of a teammate.

Austin Archer [00:16:24] But I started drinking when I was 19 years old. Instead of going on a mission, I started using drugs and drinking and did a different kind of trip and like, and, you know, and went down that, that rabbit hole. And I liked it immediately. And I, I found marijuana, and that was my big doc, my drug of choice. Like, I loved marijuana and I, I, you know, instantly I, I became an everyday user. I'm kind of that way with certain substances. Like, like, we talked about coffee. Like, I, I always wanted to be a coffee drinker. What I found out about coffee is I either need to drink it every day or not at all.

Austin Archer [00:17:01] Because if I don't do it every day, it'll make. It'll freak me out on the day. Shocks my system, or I get really. I get headaches, caffeine headaches when I'm not doing it. And I just decided that overall, I don't like the feeling of it. So I stopped doing that. But it's the same thing with marijuana where if I was doing it once in a blue moon, it would kind of freak me out. I'd kind of get. I don't. It would kind of take me to a place I wasn't comfortable. But if I did it every day and it was a sort of a state of norm and it became kind of like a security blanket.

Austin Archer [00:17:31] This nice thing that I wake up and before I go to school in the morning, I wake and make. And then I, you know, like all that stuff, it became the way I operated. It was like I did everything stoned. I, you know, went to work, I went to school, I did everything. And I don't think people know this about marijuana, but it actually is a pretty functional state of being. Like it's not the same as alcohol where like the more you drink, the less functional you become and like you're eventually going to be following. There's only like so stoned you can get. And then you're just sort of a little bit stone.

Austin Archer [00:18:03] And if it's something you do all the time, it's, you're, you're just kind of, it kind of is like almost restoring yourself to, to normalcy. But.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] And this is a huge thing I, you know, and I'm still someone who hasn't tried alcohol or marijuana or anything, but I had to learn the hierarchy of safety of substances.

Austin Archer [00:18:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Because I would have thought, well, alcohol is kind of minor stuff, you know, as an orthodox believe you Mormon. Sure. And the really bad stuff is like marijuana or like hallucinogenics like LSD or mushrooms. Now that's really bad. And it turns out that's flipped.

Austin Archer [00:18:38] It's 100.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Probably the safest stuff is like mushrooms because you literally can't have a daily, you know, psychedelic. It just like takes several months to even rebuild the dopamine, whatever. So. And marijuana is like a thousand times safer than alcohol, it turns out.

Austin Archer [00:18:55] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] But for me, you know, almost nobody's ever like killed anyone driving high. Like it's very rare.

Austin Archer [00:19:02] It's very strange that globally the drug of choice for all of human civilization is alcohol. Like, it is the global drug of choice. It is above and beyond the most prevalent. Like it's on every billboard, it's, it's on super bowl commercials, it's all of your favorite celebrities in, in movies. It's like the way that people celebrate, it's the way that people mourn, it's the way that people do anything. It's the way that people sit down and just have a chat. It's always with a beer, have a

John Dehlin [00:19:30] guess of wine with dinner.

Austin Archer [00:19:31] Yep. And it is the most dangerous drug, I think, in my opinion. I mean, and also just based on the, the numbers it kills, just the

John Dehlin [00:19:40] number of people, just the collateral damage to the world.

Austin Archer [00:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Nothing has caused more harm, sickness, illness, death, tragedy and alcohol, period.

Austin Archer [00:19:49] And I'm not. And I'm also not saying that to say we should outlaw alcohol. No, I'm not saying it didn't work.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] We tried that. It didn't work.

Austin Archer [00:19:56] What I'm saying is our. Our views, and not just Mormons, but America, like the view of having marijuana as a Schedule 1 narcotic substance that is among the most dangerous. I don't think a lot of people understand the. The racial history of outlawing marijuana, that it was just a propaganda campaign launched by William Randolph Hearst, who was afraid that hemp was going to take over the paper industry and, like, his paper mills. And so he launched a campaign saying that it's this, like, devil lettuce from Mexico, that it's this, like, it's called marijuana. And they, like, gave it this, like, really. This really exotic name that they were like, it's these people coming over the border that are bringing marijuana up, and then they, you know, they associate it with jazz players and.

Austin Archer [00:20:38] And just made it so that basically scaring white folks into thinking that this is the most dangerous thing that you can do and that that really bad disproven. Over and over and over again, propaganda campaign carries into today. There are still people who are like, well, I would never do marijuana. And it's like it's being legalized, and we're seeing that deaths aren't skyrocketing, Overdoses for marijuana aren't skyrocketing. People aren't getting in car crashes because they're high on marijuana. It's just more or less like what it's always been. It's just people getting DUIs for being drunk.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] And not to mention the generations of men of color that were incarcerated in families broken up over just minor possession.

Austin Archer [00:21:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] And, you know, we'll never atone as a country for. For the way that we damaged the. The black African American community.

Austin Archer [00:21:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] Using marijuana as an excuse. Right?

Austin Archer [00:21:31] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, so anyway, I. I really liked. I really liked marijuana. And it was such a kind of surreal and bizarre time of my life because it was something I never thought I would do. And all of a sudden I'm just like this total pothead guy. And it was great. Like, as an artist, as a musician, it felt like really magical to me. I. I unlocked things as a songwriter.

Austin Archer [00:21:55] Yeah. Creativity and like, it really put me in a state where, you know, we talk about as artists, like, the state of flow where you're really present in what you're doing. You're really like in. In that state of Zen and flow. I could really get there in a kind of meditative sense by smoking a joint and then sitting down with my guitar and just sort of fooling around and finding things. And I was. I was pushing myself as a songwriter because I've been writing songs since I was 15 years old, and I felt like I got good at about 19, 20 years old because of smoking weed and stuff.

Austin Archer [00:22:29] And it helped me calm down and just sort of focus on that task for a few hours and really try things out and give myself permission to be weird with the lyric and try different things with my voice and the way that I was singing. And it helped me also find my voice as a singer.

Austin Archer [00:22:47] We talked about how I'm a musical theater actor. My whole life growing up taking voice lessons. My voice teachers were trying to make my voice a musical theater voice, like, very bright and forward in placement. You can hear my voice right now. That's not what my. What my voice is. It's a little bit raspy and it's a little bit back in my throat. That's just where it sits.

Austin Archer [00:23:06] Playing music while I was a little bit stoned and finding my own voice helped me become a better singer. Like, I found out where I sing comfortably and where my voice sits, and it helped me sing like me, and that made me better as a singer on stage. It was, in many ways, it was a very, like, good thing for me. It was good medicine, and it was very enlightening. And.

Austin Archer [00:23:28] And then the other side of that was just like, I loved drinking and I. I loved the way that. That made me feel, and I loved the way that it sort of erased the worries of the day for me. And I didn't drink during the day. I drank when I came home from school around 5 or 6pm to the time I went to sleep, you know, and that's what all me and my roommates did. It's hard.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] How does it start and then how does it grow or how did it for you?

Austin Archer [00:23:51] Well, like, you know, I started just one night on a whim. I talked to some friends about it. I said, hey, I think I want to drink tonight, but I'm really conflicted about it. And they took me aside and they said, let's let me ask you some questions. And it's these same friends that were asking me questions about my mission and stuff like that. And they said, do you think that having a drink makes you a bad person? And I Said, And I didn't answer. And they go, do you think I'm a bad person? Do you think we're bad people for having a drink? And I said, I don't think so.

Austin Archer [00:24:16] No. And they go, so if I'm not a bad person for having a drink, why would you be a bad person for having a drink? And I went, I mean, maybe because I just have a different set of values that I'm trying to adhere to. And they were like, okay, but like, do you think objectively that a person is bad who has, you know.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] And so this, this feels like a Mormon seminary video where.

Austin Archer [00:24:33] Yeah, totally. Peer pressure.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Oh, Jimmy, don't listen to them.

Austin Archer [00:24:37] Yeah, Only in the. It was always there. It was like, are you cool or not? How cool are you? You know? But this was really someone being like, do you be honest? I think what they were trying to do is get to think about my value system and say, why? Why would having a drink objectively make a person a bad. A bad person? And if it doesn't make a person a bad person, why are you any different? You know? And so I, I, I started, and I pretty much didn't have a moderate phase from the, from the jump. It's hard to identify problematic drinking at a young age because there is a time of your life where, especially college, where everyone's kind of drinking in a problematic way, and it just seems like something that young people do, and you're kind of going, hey, I'm still getting to school.

Austin Archer [00:25:25] I'm still getting my, my schoolwork done. I'm getting to rehearsal. I'm turning in good performances and these plays that I'm doing. I'm young, I recover quickly. My hangovers are gone by 10:00am you know, I wake up at 8 for class, and by 10, I'm, I'm good to go, you know, Like, I'm mostly managing this, you know, But I think probably two or three years into drinking, I had thoughts where I was like, I do this a lot, and I do it heavy. My friends do too. But at some point, I might have to look at this. But it's hard to look at also for an ex Mormon, because like you said at the beginning, I don't want to be the stereotype of a person who left the church and, and their life blew up and they had to eat their humble pie and go, you got.

Austin Archer [00:26:15] You were all right. You were all correct. I thought I could go out there and be a cool guy and drink, but it just turns out that I don't have the constitution for it. It's. It's hard to acknowledge that when you're trying to. I felt like I had a lot to prove to my Mormon friends and family that I was like, hey, look at me. I drink and I smoke weed and I'm fine. There's nothing wrong with me.

Carah Burrell [00:26:33] I'm.

Austin Archer [00:26:34] I'm succeeding. I'm doing well. I've. I'm in a band that. Our band's doing good stuff. I'm. I'm in shows. I'm getting work as an actor. I'm doing well, you know, so I had a lot to prove that. That I was okay. There wasn't a problem here, you know,

John Dehlin [00:26:50] and honestly, that some of that pressure is what people always ask me, why don't you drink? Why don't you do, you know, smoke a little weed? And I'm. I just think I'd never want to even come close to risking.

Austin Archer [00:27:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] Being able to be that cautionary tale just because of the position I'm in. So I relate to that a lot.

Austin Archer [00:27:05] Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I kind of went through my early 20s like that. I. I dropped out of college when I was 22 years old because I started a band with one of my best friends.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] And what kind of band?

Austin Archer [00:27:20] We were a folk rock band called Us Thieves. And we played all over Salt Lake and Ogden and Provo. And we. For like two or three years, we played like three or four shows a month. We were just constantly playing around and writing albums and writing songs, and we had a lot of fun. And he was my best friend from high school. Funny story. I can. I talked about in high school, the reason I didn't drink or use drugs is all my friends who were doing it were having a lot of problems with their families. And it just was like, oh, I don't want that.

Austin Archer [00:27:46] He was one of my friends that was having problems with it in high school, and I convinced him to get sober and to go on his mission. I was like, trust me, man, you're going to regret this for the rest of your life if you don't go on your mission. Like, you're going to want this experience. He was a year old, older than me, so he goes on his mission, and then I don't go on my mission. He calls me one day from a pay phone because he heard that I wasn't going on my mission. And he was out with his companion, and he was like, I gotta call my friend.

Austin Archer [00:28:09] And he calls my cell phone and he's just like, what the hell's wrong with you? He's like, you convinced me to go out here. I'm out here. You're not going. And I was like, well, bud, people change. I'll see you when you get home.

Austin Archer [00:28:21] But he came home and didn't take him long before he was partying with me and. And we started a band and we moved into this. This punk house in. In Salt Lake City. And we, man, we were like. We were hippie punk, dirty kids with, you know, like, we. We had shows in our house, like, at least twice a month where, you know, 50 to 100 people would show up to our living room to watch bands from across the Tri county area come in and play. And then people would come in from out of.

Austin Archer [00:28:53] Out of state and play in our living room. David Diggs, who's from Hamilton, who played Thomas Jefferson, did a set in our living room with his band clipping from Oakland. And this is before he was famous. I remember my buddy that I lived in with that house when David Diggs won a Tony Award, he goes, hey, that guy who just won Best supporting actor at the Tonys, he played a show at our house once. And I was like, no, he didn't. And he sent me the photo of David Diggs just there in our living room after his set. And I was like, oh, yeah, that was crazy.

Austin Archer [00:29:22] So, but we. It was really a cool time as an artist because we were kind of unencumbered and uninhibited and we were, you know, living life on our own terms and we were playing music every day. Everyone that lived in the house was an artist. Everyone that lived in the house was in a band. So we would sit down every night in a circle with guitars and bongo drums and stuff and smoke weed and play songs and kind of inspire each other and help each other out on our songs. And it was like a really great environment to grow in interesting ways that a Mormon kid from Sandy, Utah, never would have imagined growing.

Austin Archer [00:30:01] And like. And this. I talk about this. Cause, like, I don't. I don't want this story to sound like my twenties was just this slog and this really depressing spiral of addiction and struggle. There was a lot of that. That time that I will never regret and that I don't take back or look back and go, man, what an idiot. I look back at that stuff and I'm like, I'm glad I did it that way. It really was formative for me as an artist. I think it helped formulate who I am now as an artist. And the Kind of work that I do. But yeah.

Punk House Years, Partying, and Darkening Struggles

Austin Archer [00:30:35] So we're all living in this punk house. We're partying like crazy. We have our favorite bar that's right down the street, the Twilight Lounge in Salt Lake City. We're there every single night. You know, we're chain smoking cigarettes. And like, we were just, you know, smoking. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I. You know, we were doing a lot of LSD and stuff like that. Like, do you know, because I. I loved that. That drug. And we would do it, you know, once every couple months. Like you said, it's not a thing that you can do every day. It's a very. Like, we would have to make a day of it.

Austin Archer [00:31:04] And. And so I had some wild times on that stuff, too. Like, I had. I stayed up all night long one time recording a bunch of music while I was on lsd and I was playing guitar really loud. And the next day, my roommates came out and they go, hey, was that you playing guitar last night? And I go, yeah, why would I keep you up? And they go, no, I've never heard you play guitar like that. You were so good. And I was like, I know, right? And they were like, it was crazy. And I'm like, I don't know what was happening. I just.

Austin Archer [00:31:31] Was. I. It just dust. And I. I've never played guitar that well since. But it was a really weird experience where I kind of felt melded with the instrument. And I've, like. I recorded it and I've gone back and listened to it and been like, that's so wild that that was happening, that I was doing that stuff.

Austin Archer [00:31:48] So. So that was a really cool time. And I felt really cool. I felt. I felt like I even have a song about it. I have a song called When I Was Cool that is a memory song that I wrote when I was about 30.

Austin Archer [00:32:04] That is about that time in my life where I felt like we were just like the dopest kids on the block. We were walking around in the coolest clothes and, you know, we get out of our way because we didn't also. But also, we were like the most fun kids in town. Like, we were the kids you wanted at your show. Because we would show up and we would get the dance party going. We would get, like, you go to shows at venues in Salt Lake and people are trying to be cool. They're all sitting around with their beer, kind of like listening to the band, nodding their head.

Austin Archer [00:32:32] And we would be like, now, screw this, we're getting the dance part. Like, we're gonna get on the floor and dance. And then pretty soon, everyone would be dancing. And so my buddy Will, who owns a bunch of venues downtown, would always say. He's like, I love when you and your friends show up to shows because you guys get everybody going. You guys get, like, get the party going.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] As a. As a karaoke host.

Austin Archer [00:32:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] I really value people that get the show going, Carrie.

Austin Archer [00:32:59] That's why.

Carah Burrell [00:33:01] Yeah. I mean, before that, me and my sister. Any concert that me and my sister Bethany would go to, sober, of course, as Mormons, but we were, like, out there getting the dance party started in the crowd. And that's how, like, now that I. My sister is, like, a recording artist, and she. She wants people to enjoy the music. You as a person up there, you want to see the audience participate and feel like they're really grooving out.

Austin Archer [00:33:21] Oh, it's an important role.

Carah Burrell [00:33:22] This is a thank you. Like, you're totally rocking the house.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] I mean, people see this as trivial, but I think having fun in a social setting is really important. And sometimes it really does take someone kicking it off. And if you don't have that, sometimes the evening can be a dud. And that's kind of sad.

Carah Burrell [00:33:37] Starters, the three of us. Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:33:39] Yeah. And, you know, so, like, that's the. That's the fun side of it, is I was having a lot of friends with people that I really care about to this day and that I'm still friends with, and. And we were making a lot of cool art, and I was proud of what we were doing, and I was proud of the ways that I was growing artistically. I was. I was working a lot as an actor. I was starting to get roles at that theater company that I said I always wanted to work at. Pioneer Theater. Also working a lot at Salt Lake Acting Company, which was, like, another place that I'd always wanted to work.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] And what shows were you in at Pioneer?

Austin Archer [00:34:08] I did the first show I was in there was A Few Good Men, and then I was in the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. Then I was in Peter and the Starcatcher and Newsies and Rocky Horror show and Much Ado About Nothing. And so I just did, like, a bunch of shows there. And I was playing principal roles and, like, playing, you know, leads and stuff in these shows on the stage that I'd always dreamed of being on.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] I'm glad you mentioned.

Austin Archer [00:34:31] Oh, it's really cool, because the high school kids would come to the matinees, and I'd be like, I was You. And I wanted to be up here, and I'm up here, so you can be up here.

Carah Burrell [00:34:42] One of you. Not all of you.

Austin Archer [00:34:43] One of you, but Salt Lake Acting Company. Salt Lake Acting Company. I worked there a lot. That's kind of been a big artistic home for me my entire adult life. I've done probably 15, 16 shows there over the years. And so I felt. It felt good. I was. I was making money as an actor, and I was doing what I wanted to do.

Austin Archer [00:35:02] But with it was coming this dark side that I wasn't really ready to fully confront or acknowledge what the source of it was. At that time. Around the age of 20 or 21, I started having really severe problems with anxiety and depression. And I was getting really, really intense panic attacks regularly, like, once a day. And I couldn't eat. I would eat, and then I would throw up. And so it was causing, like, an almost involuntary bulimia where, like, I couldn't keep food down because I would get so anxious. And I weighed, like, 115 pounds. Like, I was very, very thin and didn't look very healthy.

Austin Archer [00:35:43] And, you know, and I. And I. At the time, it didn't even occur to me that what I was experiencing could possibly be attached to the amount that I was drinking and using drugs. Like, it. It had to be something else, because drinking and drugs were. That was where I was comfortable. That was providing me with relief from the anxiety. The anxiety was in the morning and during the day. And then once I was at night and I was at the party or I was at the bar, I felt good, and I was. So it. I didn't make the connection that. That constantly abusing depressants and constantly putting my body through a cycle of intensely, you know, depressing it, then waking up super dehydrated and all of that stuff could create a.

Austin Archer [00:36:26] A panic attack, could make my body go, something's not right here. There's something not regulated. We need more moisture and food. But I can't eat food because I'm nauseous from the night before. And, you know, putting my body through this cycle.

Austin Archer [00:36:40] I also noticed with marijuana that, like, I would become very, very agitated if I was out and my dealer didn't have any more, and I had to wait a couple days. I would. It would be like two days of torture. And that was a note in my head that was like, I don't like how much I need this medicine and how bad I feel when I don't have it.

Austin Archer [00:37:00] But again, I still wasn't able to make the connection that it could be fixed by getting distance from the medicine. And, and try, you know, it was still like, no, it must be something else that's going on internally. So I started practicing a lot with mantras and eft tapping and things like that. And try. And the EFT was useful.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] You mean emdb?

Austin Archer [00:37:23] No. Do you know eft tap. It's, it's okay. You tap here, you tap here, you tap here and you do this, this sequence of tapping and you do mantras while you're doing it. And I, to me, the way I rationalize it because I was an atheist and I didn't believe in any kind of woo or supernatural anything. The way I rationalized it was I'm giving my brain a task to distract me. I'm going to say, let's do this and breathe in a certain way and say a mantra until I feel the anxiety subside.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Is it kind of grounding?

Austin Archer [00:37:59] Yeah, kind of, you know, like. And that's what grounding techniques are too, in my brain is like, give me a task. Five things I can see, four things I can feel, three things I can smell, you know, two things I can taste.

Austin Archer [00:38:14] And giving me a task to take me away from the rising panic. And I was able to sort of control it well enough with that. It still wasn't a thing that was super badly affecting my work most of the time on stage when I was acting, I was able to be in the zone and be where I needed to be to get my job done.

Austin Archer [00:38:37] So again, I kind of carried on just feeling like, ah, maybe this is just something I'm gonna have to live with. And I was mostly dealing with. I, I didn't like it. I. No one likes the way that a panic attack feels. It feels awful.

Austin Archer [00:38:52] But I, I got used to it kind of after a few years of doing it, just figured, I guess this is just what's gonna happen to me sometimes now that I'm an adult.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] But you associate the panic attacks with just chronically abusing substances now?

Austin Archer [00:39:08] I do, yeah. And. Well, it's interesting and we'll get to that as well. What's happened since. But, but the other thing that started happening is I became dangerously depressed. And again, it's sort of like the way that I was using where I was surrounded by a lot of people who are using a lot and so it seemed normal. I was also surrounded by a lot of people who are validating my suicidal ideation and my depression. And that's not to put anything on them. They're not responsible for my health. But we were all kind of validating each other. I would check in with my friends and be like, you guys ever want to kill yourselves?

Austin Archer [00:39:44] And they'd be like, oh, all the time. And I'd be like, okay, good. Not just me, you know. And so we would. I was with a lot of people who. That was the norm for. And then when I would meet people who said, I never think that, I'd be like, what's wrong with you? Like, you should think that. Like. Because in my brain, too, I would think the reason I'm. I'm suicidal and the reason I want to die so much is because I. I've become so aware of the reality of life, that depressed realism.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Carol. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:40:11] Yeah.

Austin Archer [00:40:11] Yep. There is no God. There is no point to the universe. The planet is dying from climate change and no one's doing anything about it. We're in a endless war that seems to have no end in sight. And I'm a person who constantly is doing selfish things that hurt people that I care about. I don't know why I should. Shouldn't be very down on myself. Like, I can't seem. And it seemed like almost being like, I'm too aware, I'm too self aware, kind of nihilism.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] Right?

Austin Archer [00:40:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Is that right?

Austin Archer [00:40:41] Yeah. And. And I think that there's an ego to it as well, where you're like, I'm too smart to be happy. Just too smart. Like, I just know too much stuff, you know?

John Dehlin [00:40:49] Little smug.

Austin Archer [00:40:50] Yeah. Yeah, totally. Or you're like, now, the reason why I'm. I have panic attacks and because I'm sad, it's just because I know too much stuff. Like, I just.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] I'm so enlightened.

Austin Archer [00:40:58] I'm burdened by the weight of my intelligence. And it. Yeah, it cut. You know, and then also romanticize, like, all of my heroes as artists were people in the. In the 27 Club. You know, Elliot Smith and Kurt Cobain and Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin and all of these great artists.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Morrison. Yeah. Even Amy Winehouse.

Austin Archer [00:41:20] Yep. Who died at 27. And I. There was this idea that I was like, I'm probably gonna die at 27, but I gotta make my good albums before then.

John Dehlin [00:41:27] Such a dumb meme.

Austin Archer [00:41:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] The 27 Club.

Austin Archer [00:41:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] I wish it would die. Is that ironic?

Austin Archer [00:41:31] No. Right? Yeah. Seriously. And so I. All of my heroes, you know, I talked about how growing up, I loved Vincent Van Gogh. I was very attached to this idea of being a great artist and making great art and being in touch with the muse means sacrificing a certain amount of mental health. It means being willing to live in a state of darkness somewhat because I'm getting intact, in touch with all of the suffering of humanity. And that's what is causing my, my feeling of despair. And it's this like, you know, kind

Carah Burrell [00:42:10] of,

Austin Archer [00:42:13] this kind of critical self awareness, this terminal self awareness where it's like, I, I wish I could fool my. When I would hear people talk about loving themselves, when they'd be like, I really love myself and I choose myself today, I would be like, yeah, you don't know enough about yourself. Then like you're being, like you're just being, you're deluding yourself. Because if you actually were being self reflective, you would be like, oh, I'm kind of a, I'm kind of an asshole.

Austin Archer [00:42:39] But that's sort of the lies that depression and anxiety tell tell you. They, they tell you that you're right to feel this way. You're correct to feel this way. You are all of these things that you think you are. And it is the longer that your brain and your ego are able to convince you of that as a truth and the harder it is to break out of it. And so that was another thing that I became resigned to. I just figured, I think I'm just going to live with this and I think I'm just going to not do it. I kind of told myself I can't do that to my family, I can't do it to my nieces and nephews, I can't do it to my friends, so I won't do it. But it's just going to be there. It's just going to be a thing that is always right here.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Suicide.

Austin Archer [00:43:23] Yeah, it was just, I mean, it was every day whispering in my ear, 20 times a day, you know, and

John Dehlin [00:43:28] I also, for, you know, Mormons are, I think Mormons are uneducated about sex, drugs and alcohol to a, to a detrimental extent. And what I mean by that is even if you choose not to experiment sexually or with drugs or alcohol, it's still important to be educated about it. And one of the things, just one of the basic things that you've already alluded to that people don't understand is that alcohol is a depressant.

Austin Archer [00:43:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] It depresses you.

Austin Archer [00:43:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] And so if you are a person that's already prone to depression, probably the worst thing you could do is become a drinker of alcohol because it's going to take you from here to a place that you probably shouldn't be.

Austin Archer [00:44:11] And it's such a tricky thing because a lot of depressive people, depressed people, are treating their depression with alcohol because in the moment it feels like a cure. It feels when, when you, when you're having just the worst day and you're really down on yourself and you get to the bar with your friends and you have your first few drinks and you feel that warmth and that like relief wash over you. And then a few hours into it, you're like, cool, I'm just here now. Now I'm just vibing to the music. And now I'm with these people. And those few hours of relief that you're getting in the night are really deceptive because it feels like the only time I feel okay is when I'm out with these people.

Austin Archer [00:44:51] That's the only time I get any relief is when I'm. When I'm out doing this and. Or, I mean, God, I drink all the time. I drank at the movies or by myself. Like, I like every time was an occasion to drink.

Austin Archer [00:45:03] And it's deceptive because you don't make the connection between. Well, the reason why 90% of the day I'm miserable is because I'm addicted to depressants because I'm chemically depressing my mood every single day. But it's hard to make that, that connection because it's just, it's, it's, it, it's tricky what it does with your brain, you know.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Is marijuana considered a depressant?

Austin Archer [00:45:32] I think so. It's definitely not a stimulant. It's definitely not something that makes you feel really up. And I've definitely experimented with stimulants too. And I found out just on my own that they're not my thing. Like every time I would do something that was an upper, I would be like, that is a little too much energy for old Austin. I do not need that much energy. You know, it's kind of like people, some people take Adderall and it's like it focuses them. They'll be like, oh, I feel very, I feel very.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Almost slows them down.

Austin Archer [00:46:00] Yeah, I feel very calm when I take Adderall and I can really focus on a task. I would take Adderall and it would be like I just smoked meth cooked up. Like, just like I would be grinding my teeth and like, you know, like it was, it was like a party drug, you know. And I think they give this stuff to 11 year old kids to focus in school. Like, I can't believe, you know, but it's just different constitutions, I think, and different the way that people respond to different things. So that's why also, like, all this stuff I'm saying about alcohol and marijuana, too. It's like people have different constitutions. And I've definitely, in sobriety, realized that the majority of my friends and the people around me don't drink like I drink.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] You're just fine.

Austin Archer [00:46:43] Yeah, they're fine. And I. I kind of thought that everyone drank like I drink, or I at least convinced myself that they did because it made me feel better. But once I got sober and got to really see what people were doing, I was like, oh, you guys aren't doing what I was doing. I was doing a lot more.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Honestly, I sometimes think of it as Russian roulette. Like, one out of 12 times or one out of 100 times, you're going to be fine.

Austin Archer [00:47:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] It's just. Are you okay if you happen to be one of the. One of a hundreds?

Austin Archer [00:47:10] I definitely live that experience where if I could be fine most the nights, it's like, well, most the time I'm fine, but, you know, I just had a lot of. They start piling up. The nights that you don't remember, the nights that you have a close call with the police or you get arrested. I did get arrested a couple times. And, you know, that's a thing where you're, you know, again, growing up Mormon and you're sitting there in jail going, I can't believe this is my life. I can't believe that I'm this guy.

Austin Archer [00:47:40] It's a really surreal thing to go through and feel like I can't. How did this. How did. How did the kid who was never gonna do this wind up in a jail cell? And, you know, I have a song called the comeback on my 2020 album that I put out that is about coming back and coming back to life and kind of getting sober and. And the COVID art for that song, when I put it out, is this photo of me from when I'm like 23. And I had fallen out of a cab that night coming home, I tried to get out of a cab and I fell face first into the curb.

Austin Archer [00:48:15] And I came inside, my face was all busted up, and I had, like, a big cut over my nose and a cut over my eye and. And my eye was all swollen shut. And I. That's the photo on the album art is like, me, like, sitting there with this busted face, and I'm like, this is, you know, what I thought was Kind of funny at the time. And like what, you know what I thought was just like a funny night out that I, I fell up face first out of this cab. So.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] Cash you a quick question. So this is going to be a bit of a rabbit trail or whatever it is kind of a side diversion.

Austin Archer [00:48:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] One of the big things that many post Mormons experience once they've lost their faith is also kind of like wondering and maybe even some experience regret about not having been able to experiment sexually. In other words, like, yeah, there's that I didn't get to party and have fun, but there's also like, I didn't get to have sex with multiple partners and, and, and try different things and, and just date and be sexual in lots of dating relationships over years and years and years. And a lot, in a lot of so, so a lot of post Mormons, like they're in their 40s or even in their 50s and they're like, okay, now I need to make up for lost time because that is a big thing I missed.

Austin Archer [00:49:36] Are you trying to ask how much of a freak I was, John? No, I mean, like,

John Dehlin [00:49:41] that's good. No, it's just your reflections on that for those of us who never actually have had that opportunity. It's something that we go, man, I'm a little bit jealous.

Austin Archer [00:49:51] No, I get it 100%. And all of my friends who we talked yesterday about how my story is a little bit unique because I left before the mission. And most people that you talk to go on the mission, get married, they do the blueprint. You know, they do the mission, they get married. Even if they did a little drinking in high school, they reform it, they clean it up, they go on the mission, they get married, they have kids, and the first and only person they've ever had a sexual life with is their spouse. A lot of times sometimes maybe they did, they did some stuff before the mission and they had got to sow at least a few wild oats.

Austin Archer [00:50:26] But I, I'm very sympathetic to that feeling and I, I think it's valid to be like, geez, I feel a little bit robbed that I didn't get to try that out. And I will say, like, there's ups and downs with that too, because take it from me, I did get to do all that stuff and I, I did do it.

Austin Archer [00:50:51] I, you know, I sewed my wild oats and I, I spent a lot of time, I was in and out of relationships a lot. In my twenties I had several, you know, two year long relationships with People. But then in between, I would be single for a few years at a time. And when I was single, I was out mixing it up with people and. And getting into situations and stuff like that. And, you know, it's.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] I guess I'm kind of asking what's the good and the bad?

Austin Archer [00:51:20] Yeah, there. And there is good and bad. The good of it is it really developed my sense for what my tastes are and what my particular. Particular affinities are in sex and what my. Like, the kinds of things that I like. It also developed.

Austin Archer [00:51:42] It gave me the ability to communicate with people in that setting better as. As. As society was evolving during that time and people were trying to be more and more clear about how you should communicate doing that. It gave me the ability to sort of see that the different shades of what's out there. Because, I mean, there are times in my life where I was single for several years in a row and there would be lots of partners in that span that I would be with, and they all liked different things. And so it really taught me that, like, people have their own unique way of doing that stuff, and they have their own unique tastes and ducks and yums, I think.

Austin Archer [00:52:26] Yeah. You know, and. And what I found out about myself is I'm pretty flexible and I can, like, kind of adjust to whatever someone wants to do to a certain degree. There's certain things that I'll be like. I don't know if I like that because I've tried it and I'm not really into it. But it was sort of like. We talked a little bit about how when I was growing up and people would.

Austin Archer [00:52:46] Would always call me gay and I would see it. See it as like an insult because I wasn't able to inwardly reflect and go, like, well, have you examined that? So I gave myself permission to examine that in my early 20s and think like, well, go ahead and just look and just see if, like, you are interested by men. Like, just go and see and like, don't be afraid of it. And so I just opened myself up to that. What I found so far in my life is that for whatever reason, I seem to be further on the Kinsey scale toward straight than the not, or even toward bi.

Austin Archer [00:53:18] I still remain, and I always say this, that I'm like, I remain open. I want to stay open to whatever. I don't want to be closed off to anything. But so far, my experience has been that I am more oriented toward women, but it was just giving myself permission to explore things, which I think was nice and Which I think is what people are missing who have only had the one partner is like that ability to really find out who you are and what you like and what works for you. And I think that makes you sensitive to other people. Exactly. I think it makes you a better

John Dehlin [00:53:52] relations and disposition, that sort of thing.

Austin Archer [00:53:54] I think it makes you a better partner for. Yeah, that knowing that and then having those experiences with different people and knowing that a lot of different people so like, to communicate.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Yeah, I hear is a big deal.

Austin Archer [00:54:03] And I would have partners sometimes where I would, like, ask them, like, do you like this?

Carah Burrell [00:54:06] And.

Austin Archer [00:54:06] Or do you like when people do this? And they would be like, oh, you don't need to ask. You can just do that. And I would go, oh, no, I actually do need to ask because I don't know if you know. So I know because sometimes people will say with like the consent question, they'll be like, yeah, but doesn't it ruin it? Like, isn't it kind of like less sexy if you have to stop and make sure you get permission for everything? And I'm like, no, it doesn't have to be an awkward conversation. It can just be like, do you like it when people do this?

Austin Archer [00:54:30] Because I can do that if you want. You know, and it can be very clear and, and direct and some say consent is sexy. I. I think it is. I think that having conversations during and talking, and I would even say I would even if I were to be therapizing couples who are, you know, monogamous ex Mormon couples who have only ever been with each other, I would say that clear, direct communication with your partner is like the best thing. Communicating clearly about what works for you and what doesn't work for you and what you like and what you don't like and doing the work to find that out too, to figure out what you like and what works for you and what doesn't work for you and just be trying to be.

Austin Archer [00:55:11] Because it's. I think the weird thing too is that, like, even couples who are now allowed to have sex because they're married and they. They can now do it, who are LDs or even our ex Mormon weren't raised with the idea that that was something that you could just have a frank conversation about, it still feels like I don't know how to talk to my partner about this for sure. And I think you need to be able to talk to. To your partner about it, you know, in order to.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] Yeah, I guess there's just. It's fun, right?

Austin Archer [00:55:42] It can be fun yeah, it is fun, and I definitely had fun. The downsides to it are.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] What are the dark sides?

Austin Archer [00:55:49] Yeah, the dark sides to it are. And this is also wrapped up in alcohol and drug use is like. There would be mornings where I'm getting real. I'm getting real frank here, you know, that's. But there would be mornings where I would wake up in someone's bed that I didn't know how I got there. And I would, as the man in the situation, be more afraid that I did something wrong than that I was taken advantage of. So I would always ask that person, like, are you okay? Is everything okay? And they would be like, yeah, I'm fine. I'd be like, you're. Everything's okay. Like, nothing.

Austin Archer [00:56:24] I didn't do anything last night that wasn't. They'd be like, yeah, that's fine. But I would still have to live with for the next few weeks. Like, geez, that is a scary situation to be in, because what if I was in a situation with this person where they were trying to get me to, like, cool it or. Or stop, but I was just blacked out and not.

Austin Archer [00:56:43] Not hearing or not responding to prompts. So there's definitely some looking at yourself in the mirror and going, I can't afford to be in situations like that. I can't afford to be in a place where I might commit a crime and like. And genuinely hurt someone.

Austin Archer [00:57:06] I think I was very lucky to. To get out with without doing that. There's. I think I was lucky in a lot of ways. I think I was lucky that no one ever got pregnant. I think I was lucky that I only ever got an STI once. And it was a very easily remedied one that was like, take a z pack for 10 days and you're good. Like, it was just like, you. You have to be.

Austin Archer [00:57:30] I think that there was a lot of immaturity with the way that I approached it early on that I just sort of was really reckless with it.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] You dodged some bullets.

Austin Archer [00:57:37] I dodged some bullets, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] What about people being or feeling objectified or reduced to kind of sexual objects? Do you know what I'm saying?

Austin Archer [00:57:47] Sure, yeah. I think that it's easy to dilute yourself into thinking that if I'm communicating clearly with someone and telling them I'm not looking for a relationship right now, but if you want to just, like, hang out, as they call it, we can do that. And thinking that you're communicating clearly, but. But kind of deluding yourself into ignoring the fact that this person is Catching feelings over here. And you're like, well, I was clear with them. I told them what I want. And so I'm gonna, you know, they can tell, they can stop it, but, like, noticing that someone's like, no, I like you and I would like to keep seeing you.

Austin Archer [00:58:21] And at that point, like, you really do have an obligation to either explore a relationship with them or, or allow them to go and find something else, because you are. You have to be careful with people's feelings and with people's emotions and the idea that everyone is going to be cool with just casual sex and know that there's nothing else behind it. And we're both just kind of mutually using the other person for this purpose. And it's totally kosher and everyone's, everyone's on board if that's. And that. That's a pot. That's a situation that you can find yourself in for sure. There are a lot of adults who are happy to be in that kind of arrangement.

Austin Archer [00:59:01] But you have to make. You have to be really clear. You have to make sure you're communicating clearly and you're not sidestepping clear communication because you're trying to get to the thing you want. And so you're sort of being like, hey, just so you know, right now I'm not really looking for anything. Maybe I will be soon. But, you know, like, be really clear with what it is. And if that person says, that's not going to work for me, then great, no harm, no foul and leave it alone, you know. But that is definitely a part of it is. I think it's easy to. To hurt feelings, you know, so, yeah,

John Dehlin [00:59:36] yeah, like, as I'm thinking about the risks of alcohol, drugs and sexual. Sometimes if I'm trying to be generous or charitable or fair with the church, it's like, man, maybe there's some wisdom in just saying avoid it all. Just avoid it all. Because, yes, there's plenty of people that will pull that trigger and they're fine and they have a great time. But like the 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 100 times, there is an STI or there is a pregnancy, or there is super hurt feelings, or there is assault or there is addiction. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't worth it.

Austin Archer [01:00:17] Here's what my counter argument to that would be is because you're absolutely right. All of this stuff comes with risk. And all of this stuff should be done with as much of an educated lens as possible. Should be done from which is easier said than done. But I would say that it's. We have just as much evidence to show that trying to live a life of compulsive repression and being like, I am going to at every turn, repress my sexual instincts and my sexual urges and keep this part of myself down results in just as much calamity, if not more. I think that, like, a lot of sexual abuse comes from sexual repression and sex negativity and even.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Even pedophilia. I. I don't have data.

Austin Archer [01:01:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] But there's a lot of anecdotal experience I have.

Austin Archer [01:01:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] That abuse of children, abusive.

Austin Archer [01:01:08] I think there could be an argument

John Dehlin [01:01:09] made that that can grow out of constant sexual repression and negativity.

Austin Archer [01:01:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] And that's why, guess what? Talk to any FBI agent, any state prosecutor. Utah, in many statistics, leads the nation in sexual abuse.

Austin Archer [01:01:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] And how can you not wonder if some of the sexual repression is. Is. Is part of the formula.

Austin Archer [01:01:32] Absolutely. So I think that the mindset of just avoid it because it's best not to even risk it. It seems, on the surface, reasonable enough, but it is also the mindset that it's not taught that way. It's not taught, like, hey, it's a lot of fun, and it's this really great thing, but it's hard to know when it might go wrong. So what you should do is just avoid it. How it's taught is it's one of the worst things that you can ever do outside of marriage. One of the worst things you can ever do. So don't even think about it. If, like, if you've got a problem with it, it is a really big problem that you have, and you need to feel really bad about it.

Austin Archer [01:02:02] And so it's got this. This weight to it and this shame to it and this. This hyper negativity to it that causes people to shove those feelings and those to the point where they can't talk openly with anyone about it. They can't be honest about their feelings. And what that kind of repression and sex negativity breeds is some. A lot of times is that stuff will come out sideways. It'll find its way out. It will find its way to the surface, and it will come out in way less healthy ways.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] All of a sudden, you have a revelation that you're supposed to become a polygamist. You know, that happens, like, every other day.

Austin Archer [01:02:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] In Utah. Right.

Austin Archer [01:02:39] Yeah. I mean, think about clergy in the Catholic Church, like, living a life of celibacy and.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:02:45] And what the possible link could be there of Trying to feel. Yeah. And trying to repress something and then having it come out.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Also with substances like. Yeah, Utah may not have as much alcohol or marijuana consumption, but we know that it, it in, in the past, at least if not at present there it can lead the nation in ssri, you know, antidepressant use, which isn't bad, but it's showing that just people are self medicating in other ways. But also there's a real opiate addiction problem in Utah amongst orthodox believing Mormons.

Austin Archer [01:03:17] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] You know.

Austin Archer [01:03:18] Well, and it's because if a doctor prescribes it then it's not technically against the word of wisdom.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] Right.

Austin Archer [01:03:22] You know, so it's again, that's still

John Dehlin [01:03:24] a form of medication.

Austin Archer [01:03:25] Well, it's again that, that, that weird double standard of like, you know, like marijuana is the worst drug you could ever do. But I take Xanax every day to manage my mood.

Carah Burrell [01:03:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] It's like Xanax is serious.

Austin Archer [01:03:37] That's a serious thing.

John Dehlin [01:03:38] It's a serious drug.

Austin Archer [01:03:39] Yeah. You know, or I take Klonopin or I take, I take Adderall, you know, and these are Adderalls, amphetamines. Like it's a serious drug. And, and just because a doctor gives it to you and just because you have a note doesn't mean that you can' Dangerous dependency that can lead you down. The exact same problems that I had with alcohol and all that, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] And same with opiates, you know, I mean it's, I have close people to me who struggle with that.

Austin Archer [01:04:04] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Orthodox believing more.

Austin Archer [01:04:06] Yeah. It's legalized heroin, you know, so. Yeah, yeah. So I think that the, the idea of, wouldn't it be safe to just avoid. I get, I get the idea and I understand the argument. I think that if abstention is going to be the, the model or the method, it should be done with a, with a proper honest education about what it is and not through fear and shame and those kinds of tactics. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] And abstinence just often doesn't work. Again, I've heard Utah sometimes leading the nation in teen pregnancy. Like, and psychologically there's something called the abstinence violation effect where you're, you're striving for perfection and purity, but then when you violate the abstinence.

Austin Archer [01:04:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] It leads to this rubber band effect where you're like, well, I've already lost my virginity so I may as well just sleep with everyone because I'm no longer pure, I'm no longer a virgin or well, I never Drank, but I drank. And so now I'm going to just drink with abandon because I'm, I'm soiled.

Austin Archer [01:05:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] Psychologically, that is a real, It's a real dynamic. And so there are real psychological risks. And this is someone who's still never tried beer. So I'm a little bit of a hypocrite.

Carah Burrell [01:05:25] But.

Austin Archer [01:05:25] But also, like, you might have some of that fear of, like, what that. Because I think, I think my mindset around drugs and alcohol, especially alcohol, was I, I never saw the point in having a casual beer with dinner again. That's. And it's not. It's because it wasn't something that was modeled to me. So a lot of my friends who do drink normally, like a Norma, they had parents growing up who would go to a restaurant, they'd have dinner, and their, their dad would get a beer and their mom would get a glass of wine. I don't know why those drinks are gendered, but they are for some reason in society.

Austin Archer [01:05:56] But, you know, and they would have the drink with, with their meal, and they wouldn't even finish it. They would leave like that much in the glass and they, it would be the one glass that they would order. And I saw this all the time as a server. I used to work in the food service industry and I would, as an alcoholic, when I would get someone to drink to go with their food and they didn't finish it and they would get up and leave the restaurant and leave that much wine in their glass, I would think, you spent $8 on that glass of wine and you didn't finish it.

Austin Archer [01:06:22] And it never made sense to me that there's a lot of people who aren't drinking to get totally hammered. They're just like, I'm just having the glass of wine with dinner because I like the way it complements the food, the palate on my tongue, and it's like a nice little teeny dose of a buzz. But I don't, I'm totally fine if I don't finish it. I've got to. If I, if, if I feel like I'm going to get any kind of tipsy, I don't want to finish it.

Austin Archer [01:06:45] That never made sense to me. The only reason to drink, the only reason to use substances was to become altered. And so I didn't. It was never modeled to me growing up that you could have a drink.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Moderation. Yeah, you hear this, you hear kind of these, you hear people say that, like, in Italy, they let the kid try the wine when they're five and. And that by normalizing healthy and by modeling, by parents modeling healthy, responsible, moderate use, that actually decreases an adult child. You know, a child that grows to adult, that decreases their likelihood of, of abusing some of these substances. By modeling education and healthy, responsible, moderate use. I don't know if that's true, but you hear about that.

Austin Archer [01:07:34] It's what I've seen anecdotally. That's what I've seen anecdotally is that. But people who had parents who drank moderately tend to kind of follow that model. Parents and relatives who, you know, would maybe drink a little bit more at the holidays, you know, because it's a holiday, and like, maybe they'd have a couple more like, glasses of wine that night. But most of the time when they go out to a restaurant to eat or eat it, eat dinner at home, they'd have a glass of wine or nothing. Or nothing.

Carah Burrell [01:07:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:58] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:58] I'm around Chandler's episode. Sam Shelley was sitting in this chair and remember how she's talking about growing up in the UK as a convert to the church. She saw her parents growing up drinking and modeling that. And then she goes from that to joining the church to byu, Idaho, where she's treated like a child with all these rules that, like, it's just a total, like, you know, switch in your brain of how healthy modeling is to then total control over curfew wearing capris. You know, it's. Yeah. I think there's something really true about. What did you call it again? The abstinence.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] It's abstinence, abstinence violation effect. The more you're striving for perfection when you violate it, the, the, the more forceful you move in the other direction as a reaction to disappointing your perfectionist ideals.

Austin Archer [01:08:42] Almost like the abstinence is pulling back a rubber band. And every year that you continue to abstain, it pulls back further and further and further. And then when you let it go,

John Dehlin [01:08:50] it just swings harder. It actually swings harder in the other direction.

Carah Burrell [01:08:54] Yeah, I definitely experienced that when I started drinking when I was 19. Like, I'm a, I'm a disappointment to my parents and to God right now just by this one drink. The disappointment. It's just doesn't matter if I'm a 10 out of 10 disappointment or a 1 out of 10. It feels like a 10 out of 10 even if it's one drink.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] So effort.

Carah Burrell [01:09:08] So effort. Yeah, just like let it all. Exactly.

Austin Archer [01:09:11] I even talk about that as a person who's sober, where I'm like, if I were because there are certain people, sober people who, like, if they find out that you took a painkiller because you were in pain, they'll be like, oh, you're not sober anymore. And I'm like, if someone had the authority to declare me not sober anymore, no one does. But if someone did have the authority to claim me not sober anymore because I took ibuprofen or something, I'd be like, oh, if that, if that qualifies as a relapse, then I'm going to go out for a two week bender because there's no way I'm relapsing on, on Advil. And like, and just that, like, if I'm going to go out, I'm going to go out, you know.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:09:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] So, yeah, it's a thing.

Austin Archer [01:09:47] Yeah.

Pursuing an Acting Career and Hitting Rock Bottom

John Dehlin [01:09:48] So I guess let's talk about where it gets really dark.

Austin Archer [01:09:52] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] I think that's the next part of your story. So. Yeah. Where does it go from creative and social and functional to like dark and dysfunctional and probably rock bottom? I imagine you had to rock bottom.

Austin Archer [01:10:04] I moved to New York City when I was 26 years old.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] What year?

Austin Archer [01:10:09] Or 20. 2016, maybe 2015.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] Six years ago.

Austin Archer [01:10:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] And what were your dreams like? I asked you this coming out of high school, what your dreams were. So now, like, before you go to New York, what was your like? This is how it's, this is how I hope it's going to go. I know you were modest and humble in your hopes for yourself, but what were your kind of biggest dreams of what, what was going to happen in New York?

Austin Archer [01:10:33] It's so funny because I was still just shooting solo. I was just like, you know, I knew. So working at Pioneer Theater. Here's the thing about Pioneer Theater is it's one of the premier regional theaters in the western United States. It's a very, like, they cast most of their shows with Broadway actors who are just off Broadway, who just did a run in a big show on Broadway and now they're here working at Pioneer Theater.

Austin Archer [01:10:57] The directors of the shows are Broadway directors who work in, you know, so the people who work at the height of the theater industry and working with those people in Salt Lake made me realize I'm on their level.

Austin Archer [01:11:11] I have achieved the skill set necessary to do the job that they do. And I'm as good, if not better than some of them. And I know I can do this job. And it was. I was finally at a point where when I would go to visit New York and I would watch shows there, I would go, I can do what they're doing. I know I can do what they're doing. I still, because I know that the odds are against me. I know that there's probably low estimate 100 to 150,000 actors trying to be professional actors in New York City and there's maybe 10,000 if that available gigs for them at any given time. I knew statistically I still have a lot. It's a, it's going to be a long shot at nobody 1 to 1

John Dehlin [01:11:52] to 10% chance of ever really making.

Austin Archer [01:11:54] Right. And so I know that you're not great odds. Yeah. And so even, even if I'm good, I'm like, I figure I was like, let's say that I'm in the top, you know, 5% of auditioners for a show. Let's say they see 800 people for this one role and I'm in the top 5%. I still have to beat out all of those people. And, and so it's still a very hard thing to, to book work. So my goal going to New York City was still I just want to be a working actor. And what I thought I could do was like I could work the regional circuit.

Austin Archer [01:12:28] Like I could book work at regional theaters across the United States that are like pioneer theater. They call them Lort Houses. It's the league of regional theaters and they're like, like in tiers of equity work. It's like Broadway national tour, Lord houses and equity actors will happily accept work at any one of those three places. And you get health insurance and you get paid well and it's a good gig to have. And I was thinking if I can get in a tour or work regionally and just kind of travel for a job, like I'm going to be doing a show at Arkansas Rep coming up here.

Austin Archer [01:13:04] Then I'm going to go down to Florida, then I'm going to go up to Oregon Shakespeare Festival, you know, and like kind of just do that cool life. I'm traveling around to different cities. I'm acting professionally, I'm getting paid.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Are the regional tours. So like Book of Mormon musical, original cast hits it big. Then there's a follow up cast and you know, over time they rotate the cast. Are the traveling tours generally known to be the second the bench versus like Broadway is the real. I know that you have to be careful saying that.

Austin Archer [01:13:35] Yeah. I mean look, the traveling show is a traveling production of the Broadway show show. That's what it is. It's. It's like when Book of Mormon travels it is the Broadway production on tour. They are casting people who are good enough to be in the Broadway show. It's just the Broadway show has a cast. It's already cast. So we need another cast that is the same level of skill as the Broadway show. When you're seeing people at the Eccles Theater downtown in Salt Lake and you're watching the touring show, you're watching Broadway actors do the Broadway show, it's just on tour, in my opinion.

Austin Archer [01:14:07] I really think that there's a certain level of skill that people get to in this industry where you're a pro. It's like, you know, it's like there's like watching professional basketball and being like, obviously there's the top tier of scorers and players, but every person in that league is a professional basketball player, whether they're warming the bench or not. They're an incredible basketball player. They're an incredible world class athlete who is better than 98 of people in the world who play that.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] And on any given night, any one of those guys could score 30 points.

Austin Archer [01:14:39] They could, you know, if they were starters, they probably could, you know, and the margin of, of difference between them and the guy that's considered the best in the world is actually probably pretty

John Dehlin [01:14:49] small and way smaller than the difference between us. And.

Austin Archer [01:14:52] Yeah, and so I. You are seeing world class talent. When you go and see a touring production, you're seeing world class talent. When you go and see a regional show show, you're seeing the best of the best. And the difference, the reason why sometimes when people go see a show at Pioneer Theater or something, they go, this wasn't as good as Broadway is. We rehearse those shows in three weeks and then we go up. Broadway shows get like six months of development before they see an audience. And so it's like, it's, it's a very big difference in how polished the final product product is. You're seeing world class actors and, and stagecraft people doing their best interpretation with a fraction of the budget and a fraction of the time and it's still pretty good.

Austin Archer [01:15:36] But so that's, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to go to New York and be a regional theater actor or a touring actor. And in my head I thought, and if I get a chance to audition for a Broadway show and it happens, I'm obviously not saying no. So I'm here as well to audition for Broadway shows if I get those opportunities. But I always, I'm always protecting myself from dreaming too big and being like I understand the odds, and I'm not going to go out there and feel like a failure if I never get to be on Broadway. You know, like, if I can just work a little bit, I'll feel good.

Austin Archer [01:16:11] New York was the town I always wanted to live in. It's the town I thought I belonged in. It's the town I thought I would find myself in and really thrive in. I was very. It was very hard and I was very disillusioned to find that New York is a difficult place to live. It is a.

Austin Archer [01:16:30] It's a grind. And people who live there are a different breed and they really. They. They really have to show up on a daily basis just to live their lives. You know, it is like every little teeny thing you're doing takes maximum effort and just getting to the audition for the day, getting all your trains right so you're not late and getting there in a sweaty mess because you had to run because one of the trains got delayed from train traffic and you were stuck underground for 20 minutes. And you have to run from the station to the studio where the auditions being held. And you.

Austin Archer [01:17:04] And it's humid outside and stinky, and you come into the audition and you're sweating and you're panicking and you have to go in there and try to deliver your best work. It is also easy to take the

John Dehlin [01:17:14] wrong train, to take the local or not the express or like.

Austin Archer [01:17:16] I mean, just. What I think a lot of people who move there to be actors or for any reason don't realize is that the actual struggle isn't finding work. The struggle is learning how to live in the city, is just learning how to be a New Yorker and what you have to put on to. To thrive in that city.

Austin Archer [01:17:34] It was very hard on me. I tried to. Again, I tried to have low expectations. I tried to think. I tried to tell myself, hey, man, you're probably not going to book in the first year. You're probably not going to book maybe in the first year and a half, two years. You got to just know that going in and just grind.

Austin Archer [01:17:49] I went in having made a lot of contacts from working at Pioneer Theater. I had a lot of friends there who had agents and representation. I was able to get an agent pretty quickly because one of my friends just said, hey, my agent's looking for a guy like you. Set me up with an agent there. That was really good. But I was like, my mo. Year one was, I'm going to grind. I went in and I printed off 150 headshots at a FedEx Kinkos. And I used all of them that year. I went on 150 auditions, and I got two callbacks, and I didn't book a single thing.

Austin Archer [01:18:18] And it was, you know, it was like, okay, like, that's what I expected, but yikes that I. It's been a minute since I've done that many auditions in a row and. And not been considered, you know, and it was definitely, welcome to the big leagues. Welcome to the professional league. And you're nobody here. Nobody knows who you are here. Nobody cares.

John Dehlin [01:18:43] Rookie.

Austin Archer [01:18:43] Oh, yeah. And it was also kind of weird because we talked about this, you know, being in the Indian restaurant last night in Salt Lake. Salt Lake's a small enough town that I'd been working at Salt Lake Acting Company at Pioneer Theater so often that I regularly got recognized by people in the store. They would go like, hey, I saw you in that show last month and you were so, you know, like. And it was just sort of a community thing where we're a small community and people feel like, oh, you're just my neighbor. And it wasn't like a, oh my gosh, it's you. It was like, hey, you're that guy from that thing.

Austin Archer [01:19:12] And I want to tell you, I really liked your work. And I got used to people coming up and tapping me on the shoulder and saying that. And being in New York City, it was like, you're nobody here. Like, nobody cares at all about anything that you've done. No one knows anything you've done, and no one cares. And New York is also a great town to be an alcoholic in because bars stay open till 4am and you don't have to drive. You don't have to take a car home and worry about how you're gonna get there. You just take the train. And it is a town where the party does not stop and people don't sleep, and people stay up till 6:30 in the morning on rooftops partying and watch the sun come up.

Austin Archer [01:19:57] And I did that many, many times. And it pushed my alcoholism and my drug usage to its limit. It really pushed me to the point where I really was not healthy. And I wasn't healthy enough to do my job right. And I wasn't healthy enough to show up right for the auditions that I was trying to go out for.

Austin Archer [01:20:17] I had a few successes while I was out there. I did a TV show that, like, everyone still sees that. It's like, I've done some TV shows before that I usually generally am like, eh, they're not very good. But I was in, like, a show, and I was in one scene.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] Which one?

Austin Archer [01:20:31] It's called Mindhunter. It's on Netflix, and it's, like, a very popular show on Netflix. And so, like, people are always like, you're in mind Hunter.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] What role?

Austin Archer [01:20:38] I was a guy in the. The first season who got in a car accident with the, like, the two lead characters. It's Jonathan gro and Holt McIlany, and I shot for a week in Pittsburgh with those guys. And Jonathan Grof was one of the nicest celebrities I've ever worked with. He, like, was a really good pal for the week that I was out there. He would invite me out to eat with him and the. The crew after we worked and stuff. And he didn't. You know, he doesn't have to do stuff like that, but he's a really great guy, and he mind Hunter. Mindhunter. David Fincher made the show, so that was what. Why? It's like, David Fincher is, like, one of the big auteur directors in Hollywood. And, like, I got to work with David Fincher, which was, like, a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Where would someone find Mindhunter now?

Austin Archer [01:21:20] Netflix.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] Okay. It's still there.

Austin Archer [01:21:22] Yeah, it's still there. It's two seasons. A lot of people are on the Internet are really mad that it never got renewed for a 3 3rd season, because it was a really good show. But so I got to be on that show, and that was probably like. And it's so funny because it was a week of my life, and it's one of the things that the most people see, and they go like, dude, you were on Mindhunter, you know, And I'm like, as in one scene of Mindhunter, and it was a week long that I was there. And, like, I don't think of that as, like, the crowning achievement of my acting career, but it's the thing that, you know, it was probably the best thing I did while I was in New York, but I was drinking a lot, and I was blowing through the little money that I had and wasting money and time and energy on alcohol.

Austin Archer [01:22:07] And I think in many ways, I was just sort of treating my own disappointment and misery of how this city didn't really turn out to be what I wanted it to be. And also, like, I found a community of friends who drank. Like, I drank, and I think we. We liked to go out and talk about our ideas to each other, about what we wanted to do as artists, but we never actually really did anything. We would just sort of drink and talk. And.

Austin Archer [01:22:34] Yeah, I, I. Around. Around the second year that I was there, I started trying to get sober on my own because it was. I was having the panic attacks, were getting really bad, and I did a show at Pioneer. I went back to Utah to do a show at Pioneer, and I started having panic attacks on stage, which was the first time I'd ever had panic attacks on stage. I did a performance of Newsies at Pioneer Theater. Sold out audiences, 930 people. And we're wheeling out onto the stage at the beginning of the show. And my character and the other character, we sing this duet to open the show.

Austin Archer [01:23:06] That's how the show starts. And as we're being wheeled out on stage, I'm going, oh, no. Oh, no, no, no. And I know how it feels when it comes on. My vision starts to go like this, and everything starts to go static in my ears, and my hands start to tingle and my start to tingle, and I start to feel like I'm going to be sick. And my brain starts going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And we're going out, and the show's starting, and I'm going, oh, I have to tell them we have to hold the show. We have to hold the show. And I'm going, I can't.

Austin Archer [01:23:32] We have to go. It's. I'm thinking to myself, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. The lights come up, and I look at my scene partner, and he starts talking, and I can't hear anything he's saying. It's just.

Austin Archer [01:23:43] And I'm just going, oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no. So I do this thing that's a grounding thing that I do in emergencies. I put my hand in my pocket and I start pinching my leg to try to see if I can pull some. Some sensory feeling to that area to try to just suck it out of my chest.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Sounds like a concussion.

Austin Archer [01:24:00] Yeah, it's like. It is so disorienting. And I started telling myself, just say your line when he's done speaking. You know the line. Just say your line when he's done speaking. So I'm literally, like, surviving up on stage. I'm just, like, making it through the scene. And we get done with the scene, we come off stage, and I think, okay, maybe that's all I needed to do is just get through the first scene, and now I'm okay. And I told the stage manager, I said, I walked up and I said, I'm not okay. I'm having a panic attack. I just need some help when I'm off stage.

Austin Archer [01:24:29] If someone could just talk to me. I just need to, like, say what's happening so I can, like, try to get it outside of myself before I have to go back on stage. It continued the entire two hours of the show. It just didn't stop. And every time I was on stage, it was terrible.

Austin Archer [01:24:44] Wound up being a pretty good performance. Weirdly enough, my parents were there that day, and I said, hey, could you tell that I was having a panic attack? And they said, no, you seemed really present and really in it. And I thought maybe I just was out of my actor brain and the doing self just took over and, you know. But it was. But the fact that it was becoming a problem, it was. I started having panic attacks in auditions and not being able to audition properly. And I would panic and forget my lines and then apologize profusely to the people in the room, and they would say, it's okay.

Austin Archer [01:25:14] Just start over. And I would start over, and it would fail again. And then I would just say, I'm so sorry, and I would walk out of the room and, no, I didn't get the job. And I started thinking, I'm gonna have to quit acting because I can't do it anymore. I can't. If I can't stop myself from panicking, then I can't do it.

Austin Archer [01:25:32] And I also. I still wasn't attaching panic attacks to drinking. I just knew my drinking was. What I was attaching to my drinking at this point was my suicidality, because I was becoming dangerously suicidal every time I would drink. And to the point of, like, going up on tall buildings and standing on the rooftop and. And thinking to my. You know, just like, is tonight the night? And so this is where I go. Like, yesterday I said, I don't know how I was able to leave at 18. I don't know how I was able. I don't know why this happened for me. But weirdly enough, this thing that I had sort of parted with when I left Mormonism, they call it the still small voice, and Mormons call it the Holy Spirit.

Austin Archer [01:26:21] I think other people in the world call it that. You're, you know, Jiminy Cricket, your conscience, your whatever, your higher self. It's this voice that kind of speaks very solemnly and soberly to us in moments of crisis where there's a lot of noise and chaos. And this voice that sort of seems to be the voice of reason and truth. And that voice would come out in these nights where I thought I might die. Tonight. And this voice would come out and it would say, hey man, this isn't working for us anymore and you need to go back inside and go to bed. And tomorrow we need to really try to be done with this stuff because this isn't working.

Austin Archer [01:27:00] And the voice would also say stuff like, I love you and I don't want you to do this right now. Please just go inside. And I don't know why I was able to have access to that. I don't know why it was coming to me in those moments, but it saved my life many times. Sorry. So I started listening to that voice and thinking, this isn't working. And I got to do something about it.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] And if somebody says that was the Holy Ghost, what do you say?

Austin Archer [01:27:33] I'd say, maybe, you know, I, I don't know what it is and I have my own ideas about what it is, but it's not really important to me to know what it is these days of my life. I think that that kind of flies in the face of the way that the Holy Ghost is taught in Mormon theology, which is that you need to be living a worthy lifestyle to have access to that.

Austin Archer [01:27:50] And I certainly wasn't living the worthiest lifestyle. And there it was, this clean, clear, sober voice saying, this isn't working. You need to go inside and be done with this. And I would be resolved, I'm done. And I would wake up the next day and I'd look myself in the mirror and I'd say, we're done. Like, and then by 5 o' clock that night, I'd be drinking again. And so I, I was, once I, once I started trying actively to become sober and noticed that I could not, and I couldn't get two days clean.

Austin Archer [01:28:21] That's when I knew, okay, there's, I've got a problem here. I got a problem on my hands. Couldn't get two days. I would sometimes get a day. And that would be enough clarify clarity for me to think maybe I can ease my way back in and just sort of drink lightly for the rest of the week.

Austin Archer [01:28:38] And I, over and over and over again I would start drinking and by the end of the night I'd go, how am I here again? How am I here again? Barely able to stand up, barely able to walk up my stairs to my walk up apartment. And it just kept, you know, and so it became really, really clear that, that, and this is, you know, so it's, this is after I'd had a dui, had been in jail, like the DUI wasn't my rock bottom. I just kept on keeping on after my dui. This was in this city where my. I couldn't audition, I couldn't do my job. I couldn't. I couldn't keep a job. I was. I got fired from two. Two different jobs. Couldn't make enough money to keep going.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] You also didn't want to quit, I'm guessing.

Austin Archer [01:29:20] Yeah. And I wasn't ready to quit, giving up on my dream. I didn't want to quit, give up on my dreams because, you know, going

John Dehlin [01:29:26] in is going to be impossible. But the people who succeed don't quit. And that's. I think, think my understanding of suicidality is it's when people feel stuck. So I'm imagining you were stuck between being. And feeling miserable, not being able to get sober and healthy, but not wanting to quit.

Austin Archer [01:29:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] Is that right?

Austin Archer [01:29:45] Yeah, absolutely. And also. Also, I didn't want to let go of alcohol. It was. I. My identity had become so wrapped up in it. I had all my favorite drinks. I. I'd found myself, like. I felt like a proper adult, you know, who did adult things and who went out and had drinks with other adults. And I, I.

Austin Archer [01:30:11] I had really developed a relationship with this thing, and I did everything with booze. I. I just didn't know how to function without it. I didn't know how to have a good time without it. And it. It was so much of who I was. So it was a really hard thing to try to even conceptualize. Who am I without this? How do I go to a wedding without this? How do I go on vacation without this? How do I. How do I enjoy just a lunch with a friend without this? How do I go to brunch and not have mimosas? Like, how. How do I do this?

Austin Archer [01:30:39] And you know, the reason why I think a lot of programs say you do it one day at a time is because they understand you can't conceive of how to do this for 10 years or even a year or 30 days or a week or two days sometimes. Can we keep you? Can. Can you do it today, and then can you show up tomorrow and worry about tomorrow? Then can you be here today?

Austin Archer [01:31:00] So I. I did not want to go to Alcoholics Anonymous because my idea of Alcoholics Anonymous was it was a religious cult that forced you to accept God and into your heart in order to be saved, and that you had to believe in God in order to become sober.

Austin Archer [01:31:18] And I had a real big beef with that, and I did not want to. Basically, it almost Seemed weak to me to just sort of defer my decision making to just another system of control like I had with Mormonism.

Austin Archer [01:31:32] And so I wanted to find some kind of secular path to sobriety. And I was trying for like the last year and a half that I was drinking to find some method. You know, I tried digging into yoga and meditation and exercise and all different kinds of things, and it's just nothing was giving me any relief or getting me any headway. And I finally got to a point where again, for whatever reason, I think I had just had enough. And I was finally ready to just try almost anything that anyone suggested. Every time I met a person who told me they were sober, I instantly asked them 20 questions.

Recognizing and Confronting Alcoholism

Austin Archer [01:32:11] How'd you do that? Where'd you go? What was the problem like before? What's it like now? Because I just wanted to know, are you like me? And what would you do to get help? And I was drunk one night, I was flirting with some girl that I met on Tinder and I said, hey, I got a bottle of wine. You should come over to my apartment and split this bottle of wine with me. And she said, oh, I don't drink. I'm sober. And I said, how'd you do that? Because that's what I always ask people. And she said, I go to meetings. But she didn't say aa, she just said, I go to meetings.

Austin Archer [01:32:41] I said, oh, yeah? What kind of meetings? And she goes, why, are you interested? Said, yeah, I might be. I think I have a problem. And I've been trying to get help for a while, but I don't. I don't know what. What to do. And she said, sent me an address. She goes, tomorrow night, 7:00pm, go to this place. I went, okay. And that night I reached out to like, I even like, reached out to my parents that night. I sent them a text and I said, hey, I want you guys to know that I know this is going to come as kind of a shock, but I have a drinking problem and I'm going to address it. I've decided I'm. And I did that to kind of hold myself accountable. I was like, I'm going to this meeting tomorrow.

John Dehlin [01:33:15] I'm going to. The first time that you had.

Austin Archer [01:33:16] Actually, first time I'd ever said anybody in my life. Yeah, that I'd ever told anybody in my life, I've got a problem.

John Dehlin [01:33:21] So that was an important component, is kind of disclosed.

Austin Archer [01:33:24] Just saying it again, it's a hard thing to acknowledge. It's. It's a surreal thing to say out loud. I was saying it out loud as a joke for years before I said it out loud for real. I would literally talk to people at bars jokingly and I'd be like, I'd be like, God, I hate how much I drink. And they'd be like, why do you drink that much? Then I'd be like, because I'm an alcoholic. And then I would laugh and everyone would laugh and like, it was like this joke that I would say for years before I actually went, look, I got a problem and, and I can't stop and I'm, I got to do something about it.

John Dehlin [01:33:53] But I have to wonder also if being an ex Mormon with all your believing family around you, maybe in a post Mormon context, and that's kind of the thumbnail for today's episode, I wonder if that adds to the pressure of like keeping it in hiding it, staying silent. It was 100% to fulfill the stereotype that, you know, other people are expecting.

Austin Archer [01:34:14] It was to them and to my secular friends, like, to my secular friends, I didn't want them thinking that I was like, let the team down, that I couldn't handle it, that I would, like, you know, that I, that I, like, I didn't want them feeling like I was judging them or like saying like, yeah, you guys should also check out your problems too. Like, I just wanted them to know, like, it's just me take making a decision for myself. And to my religious friends, I was like, everyone's gonna be like, told ya. You know, like every time I've ever had, had a failure in my life, post Mormonism, all I can think is all of those people are thinking, oh,

John Dehlin [01:34:44] see, told you left the church, you

Austin Archer [01:34:46] know, you didn't follow the blueprint. And look at you. You can't keep a relationship together. You can't keep a job. You can't, yeah, you're trying to be an actor, but like, I haven't seen you in anything like, you know, and like, so every time I'd have any disappointments, I would have this story in my head that everyone who expected me to fail post Mormonism is, is thinking this is validation. And I think that's mostly in my head, actually. I think I, I kind of self imposed that.

Austin Archer [01:35:14] But yeah, I didn't want to, I didn't want to tell people that, that they were right and that it didn't work out for me. And I still, to this day, I'm like, hey, look, I'm just, I'm just one guy. Like, I'm, I'M me and my story is my story. And not everyone. This doesn't happen to everyone who goes out and drinks. Like, it just happens to some people. And. And it's. It's a really surreal thing. So I. I go to this meeting that this girl sends me to, and I thought she was going to be there. I thought we were going to be, like, on a date to this sober meeting. And I walk in, and it's all dudes, and it's like 250 guys.

John Dehlin [01:35:51] Whoa.

Austin Archer [01:35:52] Imagine that in Covid times, we're packed into this little room. And it wasn't Covid times when I did it, but imagine that now. Now we're packed into this little room.

John Dehlin [01:35:59] New York somewhere.

Austin Archer [01:36:00] New York City. Manhattan, Lower east side. And it's called pax. It's this really great group. And I go in.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] So AA groups each have their own name.

Austin Archer [01:36:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:36:11] And packs them in.

Austin Archer [01:36:12] Yeah. And I. I don't know. Maybe I don't even know where it comes from. What'd you say?

Carah Burrell [01:36:18] They pack some in there?

Austin Archer [01:36:19] Oh, they pack some in there. Yeah, exactly. But there was a newcomer table that you had to sit at if you were a newcomer, and you had to share if you were a newcomer. And so, like, it was just trial by fire. And I walk in and I see all of the. They have these banners on the wall that have all this mention of God and all this stuff. And instantly I was like, geez, I can't believe. Like, this is like a scene from a movie.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] There's a lot of higher power talk.

Austin Archer [01:36:42] A lot of higher power. And. And, you know, came to believe that God could restore me to sanity and all of this. I'm just like, oh, no, I don't want to be here. But I told myself I was gonna go, and I'm. I'm in there. And these guys were being really nice to me. Everyone recognized. They can see it on you a mile away. Alcoholics know other alcoholics. And they also know when it's your first meeting, you walk in and they're like, hi, how's it going? Are you looking for the meeting? You know, like, they can just see just being like, yeah, I'm sure, you know, like.

Austin Archer [01:37:11] And so I went in and sat down, and like, five minutes into the meeting, I was like, again, that feeling that I had, that the spirit or whatever it is, that thing that I had lost touch with just comes in and it's like, you know, you're in the right place. Right? You know, you're where you. Like, this is where it's going to happen. And you might not want it, but this is where it's going to happen. And this happens to everyone. At their first meeting, I just started just sobbing uncontrollably. And everyone sees me. They can see me. They're like this guy at this table who's just like, like in his hands.

Austin Archer [01:37:45] And so people start handing me phone numbers. They're reaching over my shoulder, and they're handing me a piece of paper that says, like, hey, I'm so and so. Give me a call. Like, you're gonna be okay. Don't worry. You know?

Austin Archer [01:37:55] Geez. Talking about this stuff, I like these early days, I think about these, these strangers who took it upon themselves to save my life. It's really like, to this day, I'm like, I owe these people everything. And they didn't know me. They just saw me there suffering, and they just said, hey, man, it's okay. Like, you're gonna be all right. Give me a call. And.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] And a lot of them are sober. Like, they figured it out. They don't need to be there, right?

Austin Archer [01:38:29] Yeah, they're sober. And they're there for me. They're there for me. And that's why I still go. I'm there for that, for the new people. And I understand that now that that's how it works. You know, they keep going because they're there to help me out. And it's just the coolest thing in the world that it works that way. It really is just genuinely at its core, people trying to help other people. And, you know, we talk.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] I, I, you're, you're emotional now, and that's a really powerful part of the story. I don't want to break out of the story, but, like, what we talked about last night, about how AA is structured, it felt almost like a miracle, like how religion should be. Can you just briefly talk about the organization and the structure and how this is all. No one's making money here. Yeah, there's no commercialization. It's all volunteer, and it's all locally grassroots driven. Yeah, I think that's an important part of the story, and I don't want to get out of your emotions, so.

Austin Archer [01:39:19] Well, it's, it's the way that you want a church to actually be, I think a church at its core and a religion at its core is it. It wants to be a community of people helping each other, helping each other, bit by bit, be better and do better and find ways to be of service and. And that's what that's what church wants to be. I think what perverts that a little bit and what gets that a little bit diluted is dogma and stories about doctrine, theology. Yeah. And going. Well, our specific story of who God is and what God is is better than their specific story.

John Dehlin [01:39:52] We have authority, and they don't have authority.

Austin Archer [01:39:53] We have the authority.

John Dehlin [01:39:54] We do the baptism by immersion, not by sprinkling.

Austin Archer [01:39:57] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:39:59] Those are the things that we're.

John Dehlin [01:40:00] Okay. We don't like the lgbt, but.

Austin Archer [01:40:02] Right. I think those things distract from the primary purpose, which. The primary purpose is we're here to help people. We're here to help each other. We're not here to be the ones with the most correct story or the ones who are the best at it, or the ones who have the monopoly on the spirit.

Carah Burrell [01:40:17] It.

Austin Archer [01:40:17] Or the good feeling. We're here to help people. That's the primary purpose. And talk about the founders. Yeah. Without going too much into too much detail on it, because I do believe that there are certain things about AA that I really am. Like, if people want to find out, they should get. You know, they should go. But without getting into too much detail. The founders knew. They recognized. And I think this is really inspired. They recognize that if there was a hierarchical structure to this.

Finding Sobriety Through AA

John Dehlin [01:40:42] A patriarchy.

Austin Archer [01:40:42] Yeah. In other words, if there was a president or a person in charge and a structure of leadership that was a pyramid and that was hierarchical. That went out. You know, it would corrupt the. The primary purpose. It would corrupt the message, which is that we are just trying.

Austin Archer [01:41:00] We are alcoholics trying to help other alcoholics become sober, and that is it. And really, anything outside of that is up to your own subjective interpretation of what this is, including God, including what your experience with God is and what your experience with spirituality and who you pray to when you pray. And none of our business. None of anybody's business. And there's no. It's nothing about to be here. You got to believe in the Judeo Christian God of the Bible, and if you don't, then you can't be here. There's nothing like that. It's just. The only thing you need to be here is you need to want to be here.

Austin Archer [01:41:31] If you want to be here and you're trying to get sober, and you've tried a million different things, and nothing's working, and you want to try the way that we tried, which has worked for us. You can be here if you want to be here, and that's all we need for you to want to be here.

Austin Archer [01:41:44] There's no person you need to check in with and do a worthiness check with. There's nothing like that. It's just people trying to help each other. And so went to that meeting, knew it was where I belonged, was bummed out that it was where I belonged because I didn't want to do it. Told everybody that night, they invited me out to a diner. They said, hey, we're go out. You should come out with us and get some milkshakes or something, you know, Went out with these guys. I told them, I said, hey, I don't think I can do the God thing. I don't think I can do praying.

Austin Archer [01:42:10] And right off the bat, they were like, dude, don't trip. Like, just don't. Everybody in here came in as an atheist and, like, don't worry. Like, you're. We'll get to that. Like, just, can you come here tomorrow? Can you be here tomorrow? Like, don't worry about.

Austin Archer [01:42:25] Can you do the God stuff? Can you get a week? Can you get 10 days? Can you get 30 days? Can you be here tomorrow? And can. And if I call you tomorrow, can you answer the phone? If I call you, can you pick up? Just, okay, I can do that, you know? And so I started on this process, and I resisted it for a long time.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] You have to pick your sponsor. Like, people are giving you phone numbers. Do you have to.

Austin Archer [01:42:49] Yeah, you.

John Dehlin [01:42:50] Do you, like, vet.

Austin Archer [01:42:51] Yeah, you. You. You try to find somebody that you relate to, and what they say is, try to find someone who has what you want. If you see someone that you're like, that's what I'm trying to get is, like, that. The kind of clarity that that person seems to have. The guy who's spoke at the first meeting I ever went to, I, weirdly enough shared, like, my exact story. He talked about moving to New York because he wanted to be a famous musician, and he was trying to, like, do it, but he got really caught up in the party scene and dating apps and stuff like that.

Austin Archer [01:43:21] And he wound up getting into meetings because a girl on a dating app that he met sent him to a meeting. And I was sitting there listening to it, going, like, am I on camera right now? Like, is this, like, am I being punked? Like, this guy's, like, saying my exact thing. I went up and I talked to him afterward and thanked him for sharing his story and told him that I really related to it and got his phone number. And that guy became my sponsor, and he's still my sponsor today. He's like, we went out to lunch like a week later and he was talking to me about his.

Austin Archer [01:43:47] He asked me to tell him my story and I told him my story. And then I asked him if he'd be my sponsor and he said sure. And he still is. And we talk every week still.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] Really?

Austin Archer [01:43:59] Yeah, we talk all the time. And he helps me with a lot of stuff. And that's a process of, it's not a process of hierarchy. It's not a process of this guy's in charge of me and he gets to tell me what to do. It's a process of accountability and it keeps him in his like it's just as beneficial for him to help me as it is for me. It's just as beneficial for him to have that because it keeps him rooted in service. What I've discovered in sobriety is that like the most magic spell ever is. And Mormons have this morm know this is Service is if you're stuck in your own hellstorm of self obsession because depression and anxiety is a form of narcissism and self obsession and self absorption.

Austin Archer [01:44:42] You are so locked in your own experience and so unable to get outside of yourself. You are locked in the cage of your mind and of self hatred and self pity. And no one's worse than me. I'm the worst person in the world. No one has it, has it worse than me. No one's ever suffered this much. You know, service is this little magic trick that like forces you outside of yourself for a few minutes at a time. I'm going to focus on helping this other person for the next hour. I'm going to, I'm going to go over and see if I can help them with something that they need help with or I'm going to call this person and just listen to them and just say lay it on me and just be available for this person for the next hour.

Austin Archer [01:45:22] So service is a huge part of my program now and it's a huge part of the way I stay sober is focusing on giving back to other people what was given to me. Total strangers took time out of their day to save my life and to listen to me when I was crazy and when I was spiraling and I owe it to other people to do the same. And it also keeps me sober. It also keeps me rooted in a program of recovery. It helps me get outside of myself. It helps me stay rooted in the right kinds of things. And so, but yeah, early on I, I, I really struggled with God stuff and I also really struggled with the Feeling that I had this idea that, like, I didn't like how into it everyone seemed.

Austin Archer [01:46:14] Everyone would say stuff like they'd be like, my sobriety is the most important thing in my life. It's number one on the priority list. It is. It is the top dog thing that I worry about every single day. It is like, it is the biggest thing in my life. And I'd be like, I don't want that. I don't want this to be my thing. I still want acting and art and music to be my thing. I just want to be sober.

Austin Archer [01:46:37] And I would kind of think, I had this thought in my head where when people would tell me this is the most important thing in my life, I would think, geez, get a more interesting life. Like, what a nerd. Like, get. Get a more interesting hobby, you know, like, don't just be excited about going to meetings. You know, like, meetings are something you go to because you need to. It's medicine, but it's not, like, fun.

Austin Archer [01:46:59] And I had that mindset that I was going to use this program for my own purposes and in my own way. And what I started doing was what I call being mostly sober. I was more sober than I'd ever been in my adult life, and I was sober like 10 days at a time. And then I would relapse for two or three days, and then I would get 10 more days. But that was still like a big difference from doing it every day. So in my mind, I was like, well, I'm doing it. I'm sober.

Austin Archer [01:47:26] And I was telling people back home that I was sober, and I was telling people that I was doing it. And in my mind I was like, nobody needs to know that I drink every 10 days. You know, like, I'm biology.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] It's a big accomplishment. It's a big difference. The biggest accomplishment.

Austin Archer [01:47:39] By all metrics, I'm. I'm drinking. Reason reasonably, if I'm only drinking 10 every 10 days, you know, and I'm no longer a problem drinker. The problem was when I would drink. It was like what you talked about, the, the pulling back, the rubber band, the abstention or abstinence violation. Yeah, abstinence violation. It would. It's like I packed in the last 10 days of drinking, into those few days of, of drinking, and I would go on a big bender and, and, and it would get really dangerous really quick. I would black out and I wouldn't know where I was. And.

Austin Archer [01:48:11] And so I realized about six months into working this program and kind of repeatedly relapsing that doing it on my own terms and with my own rules wasn't going to work. And people had been telling me that from the beginning they were going, don't try to find your own little cheat code. Don't try to find your. Trust me, we've all done it. We've all tried to find our own little way through it. Just do it. Just do the things that are being told suggested to you to do.

Austin Archer [01:48:40] And again, it's suggestions. It's a program of suggestions. It's not commandments. There are no commandments. There are no transgressions. There are no, you know, like, it's just we suggest you do it this way. And the reason we suggest that is because in the cases where people have taken these suggestions, they've stayed sober. And in the cases where they haven't, they haven't. And it's that simple. So we suggest you do it this way.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] So can I ask a question?

Austin Archer [01:49:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] So, one of my least favorite comments of the entire day. I don't like to swear, generally speaking, especially on the podcast, but I'm going to call this a shitty comment. Pat Riley writes, 12 step program is a religious cult. That's why so many of its members use magical thinking and do the generic quote, God talk, close quote. And then it must be a belief. Pat must be a believing Mormon because he writes mormons don't drink, which is an interesting comment. And then he writes, AA members almost always do. So, like, first thing I'm gonna say is there's something that I relate to about Pat Riley, but it, but it more isn't from a believing perspective.

John Dehlin [01:49:44] It's from an ex moral perspective. Like I've been in a cult. And so like, I'm really sensitive to even someone giving me a suggestion. Like if somebody tells me, try this, I'm like, go away. Like, I don't want to do anything anyone ever tells me to do again, again because I've been burned and I want to kind of do what's right for me and never be told what's right again. And even like my brother saying, you should meditate more, I'm like, go away. I don't want to be told what to do. So, you know, so I'm sensitive to joining another cult, right? So in that sense, I don't like Pat Riley today, this Pat Riley.

John Dehlin [01:50:15] But you know, I can sort of say, oh, it's another cold. It's another, you know, oh, and there's higher power talk, so I can kind of like get to see A little bit it. But like how, how would you address kind of some of those stereotypes about aa?

Austin Archer [01:50:27] My response would be I completely understand. And I, I shared that sentiment very much. That's what kept me out of it was that I was like, I don't want to just be in another system of control and another cult and another magical thinking thing or dogma or dogma.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] They're saying just do it.

Austin Archer [01:50:45] Yeah, that's starting to sound exactly. When they're saying just do what we say and don't ask questions, stuff like that. It sounds very manipulative. What I have come to find out through experience is that the reason they say just do it is because it's actually not a magical program. And my actual experience with it just personally is that it doesn't work magically. It's not I say magic words and then I magically am sober. It's I do a certain set of things on a daily basis. And the reason why the mantra of the program is it works if you work it is because it is, is that simple.

Austin Archer [01:51:18] It's not magic. It's not say the spell and you're better. It's not ask forgiveness from magic bearded guy in the sky or ask space wizard to grant my wishes and he will grant my wishes. And it's always a he, capital H, he.

Austin Archer [01:51:32] It's do these things on a daily basis. Show up here and it's really simple. It's like be here instead of being at the bar, be here at this meeting. Be of service instead of being wrapped up in yourself.

Austin Archer [01:51:46] Make phone calls to other people so that you're focusing on service and you're focusing on other people and practicing getting outside of your own experience. These are practical, actionable things. These are practical real world things. If I am making my life about based around service and how I can help people today and how I can be of use today and how I can get outside of my self centered thinking today. I have a better shot at being a better version of myself today. And that's just a practical approach to the problem. It's not magical thinking. It's not I'm gonna be better because I asked a space wizard to make me better and the space wizard made me a better person.

Austin Archer [01:52:23] It's so the way that I even frame prayer and meditation is I am taking time to set a conscious intention for how I want my day to go and how I want to behave today. And I believe that I'm in contact with my higher self. I believe that higher power. And again, this is AA has a very. It is constantly in the literature that it is a God of your understanding. Those words are very clear. It is a God of your understanding. Now, the book uses the term he a lot. And it's because the people who wrote the book had a kind of traditional sense of what God was, and they had a gendered sense of what God was.

John Dehlin [01:53:00] When you say a book, is it like a scripture? Is it like a Bible for aa? Is there an actual book? If so, what's it called?

Austin Archer [01:53:07] Sorry, it's called the Big Book. And it's called the. It's called Alcoholics Anonymous. And it's called. It's. It's the Big Book. And it. Basically, what the book is, is it outlines how the program works and what it. How it's intended to work. It just outlines what we're. What we're trying to do and how we're trying to retrain our brains to focus on new things and to create new neural pathways and to. To have new goals and. And a new experience with life. But it's. Again, it's not magical. And when it comes to the God thing, it is very, very clear and deliberate. And I think this is very forward thinking for a book written in the 1930s.

Austin Archer [01:53:46] It's very forward thinking to say very deliberately and clearly over and over again that this is a God of your own understanding. And that is a very broad, loose term. And when I came in, I heard that, and I thought, yeah, sure, I'm gonna be in here for six months, and then someone's gonna drop the. Drop the ball that it's actually Jesus. Like, they're gonna be like, yeah, they say God of. You know what I'm saying? But it's Jesus. And like, three and a half years in, nobody has ever asked me what my God is. No one has ever asked me what my conception of God is or who I pray to or what I pray to or what, you know, my conception of God has become that it is something internal.

Austin Archer [01:54:23] People think of God as an external force that, like this man that is listening to them, that they pray to. I believe that it is like. Like an internal thing that being a conscious being, you have it. You just have access to this core of truth and reality. It is the version of you that knows what truth is. It is the version of you that recognizes honesty. When you hear it. When someone says something honest, and you go, I know that that's honest. And when someone lies and you go, I know that's a lie, it's the version of you that is the best version of you.

Austin Archer [01:54:54] And then all of your other stuff, your ego and all of that stuff and your fears, they're the ones that corrupt that. So I believe when I'm sitting down to meditate and PR Pray, I'm trying to set intentional time to connect with the best version of myself and say, please help me be in line with this person today. Please help me to be more open and to listen to people more and to be more compassionate to be. To find people to help today. A really simple prayer that my sponsor gave me when I first started out because praying was really hard for me. He just said, show me the truth about myself and help me find someone to help today.

Austin Archer [01:55:30] And just that, like, simple things like that just, like, help me see who I truly am. Help me be honest about myself. Help me be real and help me, if I can find someone, find a way to be of service today. Really, really simple things. And it's like, I'm not asking a magical being to endow me with the power to do those things. I'm trying to empower myself to pursue those things. I'm trying to consciously take time to focus on today I want to be of service today. I want to be a little bit better. I want to be a little bit better version of myself.

Austin Archer [01:56:03] And to me, that's a practical program. That's a practical program of actionable items that have nothing to do with woo or dogma or some kind of magical permission to be better. It is me making a conscious effort to have a. To experience a psychic shift and to go about my life in a different way. If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:56:28] It does. And as. As. As I'm hearing you talk about this, it's. It's really spinning my head in 180 to 360 degrees because I think about, like, what people who leave Mormonism do or ex religious people. There's a lot of ex Christians on Tik Tok, and there's a lot of, like, angry reaction to religion. It's bad and it hurts people and it's abusive and it's patriarchal and it's dogmatic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's homophobic and sexist and racist.

Austin Archer [01:56:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:56] And there's. There's truth to all that. And there's so much in common between kind of the fundamentals of religion done right.

Austin Archer [01:57:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:57:09] And what I hearing you describe right now as a working, functional AA program.

Austin Archer [01:57:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] You talk about a higher voice or like a voice.

Austin Archer [01:57:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] Does it matter if someone calls out the Holy Ghost or if or if you just say it's my internal psychology.

Carah Burrell [01:57:24] Doesn't matter.

Austin Archer [01:57:24] To me, it's a voice. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] And you talk about a higher power. Does it matter if Mormons have a 10 fingered, bearded anthropomorphic God and for you it's just nature and science and beauty. Does it matter? I don't know. And you talk about prayer. Does it matter if you, you kneel down and pray to that bearded sky daddy?

Austin Archer [01:57:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:44] Or if you're just like voicing an intention in the morning.

Austin Archer [01:57:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:57:49] You know, and. Or I'll even say this, that the Mormon Church is saying, don't drink at all. And now here you are at AA saying, I'm not going to drink at all.

Austin Archer [01:57:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] Like, kind of blowing my mind in two ways. One is like, in how many ways is Mormonism actually got it right?

Austin Archer [01:58:07] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:08] That we, that it's just the way they did it effed it all up. Right.

Austin Archer [01:58:12] I. I want to. I love this because I want to respond to this. Will it destroy this if I have to go to the bathroom right now?

John Dehlin [01:58:18] No, no, no, no.

Austin Archer [01:58:19] Is that a thing that you do?

John Dehlin [01:58:19] No, no, no.

Carah Burrell [01:58:20] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] In fact.

Austin Archer [01:58:22] All right, I want to go.

John Dehlin [01:58:23] Do your thing. Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:58:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:25] How are you? How are you doing? And I know we have.

Carah Burrell [01:58:28] I have a lot of scriptures on my mind that come to mind because the type of Christian that I was really resonated. I. I put myself back in my Christian brain when he said that. The line about help to know the truth about yourself and find someone to serve, that is the type of Christian I feel like I was.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] Yeah.

Austin Archer [01:58:43] Service, that's another one.

Carah Burrell [01:58:44] Yeah. I wish he was here because I wanted to know if he likes, we

John Dehlin [01:58:47] can bring him back in. But make your point.

Carah Burrell [01:58:48] No, about. There's this musical, the Elwood musical, called Legally Blonde. The musical.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:58:57] And there's this part of it where she goes, law. Is this the point of law when she gets to help somebody get the dog back? When she helps to get Pauline's dog back. And I would sing that when I would live in la. And I remember I lost my job. My life was miserable. I thought like God had abandoned me. And I. And then I was just free one day and somebody from church called me up because they knew I didn't have a job. And I was just home crying and somebody needed a ride to the bishop storehouse. And I was like, this is God, like, putting me in the lowest place that I've ever been in, in a long time.

Carah Burrell [01:59:33] Putting me in a position where I have Free time now. And all I did was just serve in my ward because I had so much free time because I didn't have one. And I would sing that part of Legally Blonde myself. But instead of law, I would say, service. Is this the point of service to be remember, like up. Like, this is what I should be doing. That like, I was living as a Mormon in a way where I was just showing up, showing up. And I was like, no, it's because God wanted to, like, teach me a lesson. Like I was gonna. He's gonna take me out of my high paying nanny job that I really liked and just drop me on my ass and then he's gonna make me serve every day, all day until I get what the point of this religion was.

Carah Burrell [02:00:08] That's what I thought God was trying to teach me. Is this making sense? Like, that's the kind of Christ that I thought that he wanted me to, to worship and stuff. And so, yeah, when he just said, like, to know that hard truth about yourself, I. I realized the truth of like, I actually care so much about money. Money. Maybe money is not so important. And what's the other hard truth about myself is like, I really have like this expectation that God is just going to always bless me and life's going to go well, if I'm, if I'm following the rules, that's not another thing.

Carah Burrell [02:00:34] So I had to learn truths about myself as a Christian, quote unquote. And I said quote unquote because people are like, you were Mormon, technically you weren't a Christian. I say, I was a Christian anyway. And then I was looking for people to serve. And then that just again, sorry, everything comes back to illegally Braun. Like, it gives you endorphins and happy people just don't kill their husbands or like, happy people are happy. So like, you're kind of. Yeah, it's like, it's a drug. It's a. When you're. I loved his description of service. When you're serving people, you're not thinking about yourself. You're thinking about how I am so glad I don't have to go to the Bishop Storehouse.

Carah Burrell [02:01:09] I'm so glad I have a car. I'm so glad I have the opportunity and the free time to be able to serve people who are less fortunate than me. And you count your own blessings. So that's kind of what I got out of what Austin just said is you recognize all of the things that you have and how much you can give, and that's where you become more entangled with your religion that you're like, I love God for giving me this opportunity to serve. I love God for him teaching me these lessons. That's the parallels that I just saw between being like a very Christ centered person who wants to be refined by Christ and also aa.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] Yeah, yeah. So care just added service to higher power inner voice. You know, a daily prayer, meditation service is a really powerful thing.

Austin Archer [02:01:52] Well, I really liked what you said too about does it matter? That question I remember that was the thing that actually helped me most with my issues with the God stuff is I finally realized it doesn't, it doesn't matter. It doesn't because like, I finally had this conversation with my sponsor. I was like, you know what? I think I'm just at a point where, like, to me, I'm doing. I'm. I'm willfully participating in a process because it's helping and I'm giving myself over to it. And again, I talked about how I used to think people had such boring lives because AA was so important to them.

Austin Archer [02:02:24] I realized that the reason it's the top priority for them isn't because they're boring or don't have hobbies or don't have other passions. The reason it's the top priority for them is because it won't work. So I think another thing that Pat Riley does, doesn't, maybe doesn't understand is that alcoholism is a hell of a disease. It is a really, really, really difficult thing.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] The person and people around them.

Austin Archer [02:02:48] In my three years of being sober, I've had friends die. And it's like it's. It is, it is a hell of a disease. And what I had to realize is it's not a joke. I'm not being hyperbolic. I'm going to die. If this is not my top priority, I'm going to die or I'm going to wind up in jail either way and. Or I'm going to kill someone else. I'm going to be in my car and I'm gonna ram into someone on the road and kill someone. And I had to realize that it is genuinely life or death and this has to be my number one priority.

Austin Archer [02:03:16] So my misgivings about prayer or whatever, I gotta set those aside and give over to this thing. Not because I believe in any kind of magical thing, but because these people are telling me this. I have the same disease you have, where I can't stop and where I can't stop myself for whatever reason, I can't stop myself from being selfish. I can't stop myself from. And this has helped me stop.

Austin Archer [02:03:37] So what I finally came to is this realization of like, I don't actually care what I'm praying to. I don't even need to know. And that is something that I gained in secularism and in atheism when I left the church. One nice thing about leaving Mormonism is that freedom of going. I don't need to know. I don't need to know what created the universe. I don't need to know all of these things that are unknowable. I don't need to have a specific story about who or what God is and what the nature of that entity is or isn't.

Austin Archer [02:04:07] That's not useful for me. I don't need to use it. All I need to know is does it work or not? Does it help? Is it helpful? Is it useful? And I would say the same thing to anyone who believes in Mormon God is if it's useful for you, if it helps you become a better person, if it helps you be of service, if it gives you a reason to be a better father, husband, son, brother, friend, neighbor, do it. The only time I have an issue with it is, is if it's making you a worse person, if it's making you more bigoted, if it's making you dislike your neighbor because they have different beliefs from you, if it's being used to harm people, then I have a problem with it.

Austin Archer [02:04:46] I don't have a problem with anyone's God story if it's, if it's just helping them be a better person because it doesn't actually matter. And then the other thing, the last thing I want to address with what Pat said is this idea that alcoholics almost always relapse and drink again.

Austin Archer [02:05:05] Again. I would suggest that maybe this person doesn't really appreciate how intense this disease is and how difficult it is to treat. And I would also say that to me, whenever I hear that, whenever I hear people talk about the success rate of 12 step programs, I think that's not my, my anecdotal experience with it is that it's not that. And my anecdotal experience is that 30 days sober for an alcoholic or addict is a damn miracle. It's an absolute miracle. So like getting a person like me to not drink for three and a half years is success. It's, it means it works. And getting.

Austin Archer [02:05:43] And even if I, even if I relapse, even if I drink again, like those three and a half years are not taken away, I'm not that it doesn't mean that, oh, it didn't work because again, it works if you work it. And in pretty much unanimously, universally, every case of relapse that I've ever heard from a person who had 10 years, who had 20 years sober and then relapsed, the story is the same. They say I stopped going around, stopped going to meetings, stopped doing the things and eventually I got bored, got restless, irritable discontent, and I went out and drank again because this disease is relentless and it doesn't, it doesn't get weaker the further and further you get from a drink.

Austin Archer [02:06:19] It stays there every single day. I wake up every single day, three and a half years sober as an alcoholic, still thinking about drinking.

John Dehlin [02:06:27] That's why you say you never recover. You never are not an alcoholic. Right, Right.

Austin Archer [02:06:31] Yeah, I'm not no longer an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic and I think eating

John Dehlin [02:06:36] disorders are often the same thing.

Austin Archer [02:06:37] Yeah. And it's something I have to focus on for the rest of my life if I want to stay sober and if I want to, to keep living the kind of life that I'm trying to live. And it takes, that's, it's made me realize that that is like when I was depressed and people would say like, you need to choose happiness, you need to choose self love. And I would go, what are you talking about? As though it's just this switch I can flick. What I've been realizing in this program is it's a daily choice of little things that will build into more happiness and more contentment.

Austin Archer [02:07:05] They told me that I was going to love myself when I entered this program and I was like, like, you have no idea how much I dislike myself. Like, if you knew how much I dislike myself, you would know that you're not going to get me to love myself. I've never thought that, that I love myself. I don't love myself and no one's going to convince me to love myself.

Austin Archer [02:07:25] What I didn't realize is that it's through doing esteemable acts that you build self esteem and doing things that, that made me more like a person that I respected. Being a person who's more focused on service, being a better son, a better friend, a better brother, being more honest with the people that I, that I love and being more honest with myself on a day to day basis. Little things, bit by bit, slowly but surely helped to transform me into the kind of person that I genuinely like and that I actually love. And so it, I couldn't conceive of it at the time, but Again, I go back to practicality.

Austin Archer [02:08:04] These practical things, focusing on how can help people today, focusing on how I can be a better person in all of my affairs turned me slowly but surely into a person that I can genuinely look at and go, I'm actually not a bad guy. I'm actually doing okay. And that's where it comes from. So that I think it's an oversimplification when people say choose happiness. But I think what they mean is it's a daily process of choice. It's a daily process of today I'm, even though it's hard, I'm going to choose to get out of bed and do the things that I know make me feel better.

Austin Archer [02:08:36] I hate. I still have a really hard time with morning meditation and yoga and exercise. And while I'm doing it, I tell myself, thank you for doing this, thank you for showing up. I know you don't want to do this today. Thank you for showing up. I'm glad you did this today. And it helps me have, it helps me practice a sense of appreciation for myself and a sense of self love that I'm, I have to practice this stuff. And, and I don't know that that's why. So I just, I, I go to, with the success rate, I'm like, yeah, there is a lot of recidivism and a lot of relapse in 12 step programs because this is a hell of a disease and it doesn't go away.

Austin Archer [02:09:13] And if you stop doing the things that get you sober, you stop being sober. And it's frustrating. It is frustrating all the time. It's like being diagnosed with a lifelong terminal illness because. And if the second I take my eye off the ball, I'm going to be sick again. And so it's frustrating and it's hard to accept that you're like when you're, when you're first really coming to terms with I'm an alcoholic and what that really means, it means I'm accepting that I have a lifelong diagnosis. It means that for the rest of my life I'm going to have to work on this if I want to accept that.

Austin Archer [02:09:45] And it's hard. It's really hard. So a lot of people think, can I just do it for six months and really get some good stuff and then be good? And unfortunately what we found is no. Now there are other methodologies that are being explored that I think are interesting, like psychedelic therapy. People are reporting really, really remarkable results with MDMA therapy and psilocybin therapy.

Austin Archer [02:10:09] As a person in Recovery who has good sobriety and feels good about it. I don't personally feel like approaching those methods and risking what I've got, but I'm all for those methods being used. Which brings me to another thing that I think is a problem with religion, is the idea of monopolizing a solution, monopolizing truth, monopolizing something that works. I'm like, it is an individual basis. It's a person by person case. If something works for you, if psilocybin therapy or MDMA therapy gives you real relief and works for you, I'm not gonna say you can't do that because that's. That those are drugs and that it's not for me to say.

Austin Archer [02:10:48] And I would never say that AA is the one true one path to recovery. It's what worked for me and it's what I'm hanging on to with my lifelong illness. So.

John Dehlin [02:11:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, if I'm. This is so powerful, it's going to help so many people. And I'm always trying to make connections to post Mormonism and post Mormons and. But the three things that just really stick out and I'm. I'm repeating a tiny bit. The first is just how frustrated I am hearing about the AA model and the simple elegance and profundity of its simplicity and its altruistic, kind of service oriented kind of elegance.

Comparing Mormon and AA Belief Structures

Austin Archer [02:11:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:31] That makes me frustrated at how often religion kind of ruins everything. Like whether it's Buddha or Muhammad or Jesus or whoever it was, they start out with something really elegant, really beautiful, really powerful. And it's just like you just add, add 10 years and some patriarchal structure and they're just ruining it and they're going to do it for. For time immemorial. And I. Why can't we as humans just stick with the simple, elegant, good stuff and not always have to destroy it with dogma and patriarchy? Like that's the first I want to

Austin Archer [02:12:06] just say to that. I think it takes people who are dealing with something as serious as alcoholism, something where they're going. Everything I've tried to do has not helped me.

John Dehlin [02:12:15] Yeah.

Austin Archer [02:12:15] I don't know what to do. I feel. Yeah. Life or death, it takes those kind of stakes for someone to go, we're gonna create a thing that is this simple, elegant message and we cannot afford to corrupt it with anything else. We can't afford to corrupt it with some kind of backstory or like store story to bolster it up. It needs to be.

John Dehlin [02:12:31] Stakes are too high.

Austin Archer [02:12:32] If it's not pure. It won't work. And so I think it takes that kind of.

Carah Burrell [02:12:36] As opposed to, like, religion, which is kind of saying that everyone is born a sinner in a way, that to be redeemed before your maker, you have

John Dehlin [02:12:43] to do these steps, and everyone has to do it. Like, oh, get all your kids. Baptize all your kids into it. And there's only one way, and everybody's got to do it. One path for everyone.

Austin Archer [02:12:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:51] It's the mythos, a recipe for.

Austin Archer [02:12:53] It's the mythos that makes it messy. It's the. It's the. The stories and the dogma. And that's what makes it messy is it's like, at the core, like you said, it's this really beautiful thing of, like, people trying to help each other. But all of the stories of it works like this. And then you go to this level of this thing, and then God's it. It makes it messy.

John Dehlin [02:13:09] Tears in the secret and it's like, it's.

Carah Burrell [02:13:11] It's something that so many religions that were, you know, invented in the Stone Age that we still carry, that are still, like, people making our laws today still carry ideas that were invented thousands of years ago that are just not compatible with what we know about human sexuality, for instance, or psychology. Human psychology. Human flourishing. We have better information now. And dogma, least favorite thing to do is update. So it only flourishes. Dogma only really flourishes. If you say that.

Austin Archer [02:13:40] Well, that's the problem with dogma, is that. Yeah. When you have a rigid, eternal message that is like, this is the truth, and then society evolves past that message, it's very hard to reconcile.

John Dehlin [02:13:52] Yeah.

Austin Archer [02:13:53] The cognitive dissonance that brings. What were the other two things you were going to say?

John Dehlin [02:13:56] So the second point is one I've already made, which is how easy it is. Like, the literalness of it all sometimes does us so much a disservice because really, for a post Mormon, again, well, oh, well, God talk and, oh, blah, God and a Holy Ghost and what is that? And prayer and. And then again, you're telling me you're doing all these things. So, like. So, like, how much does it really matter sometimes if something's literally true or not, or if it's sanctioned by God or not, or even if there's a God or not, or if the Holy Ghost is real or, like, there's probably an extent to which post Mormons focus too much on literality, and it becomes a wedge between a bunch of people that actually share a lot in common.

John Dehlin [02:14:44] They just are all along a spectrum of literality, right? So it doesn't matter if you love nature and science and feel a majestic ness to it, or if you give that a name and call it God. Does it really matter? Does it really matter if you really think an actual Jesus died and was resurrected after three days, or if you just think Jesus was a good guy that taught some good things like, and with prayer and with, with listening to your inner voice and with attending a weekly thing and doing service. Like, I think I'm going to always have to remind myself as a post Mormon Mormon that it's so easy to like, obsess about the falseness and the binary truthness and faultless falseness and literality of it all and have that be a wedge that comes between me and a whole lot of believers that are really approaching life in a very similar way, but are, but are just approaching with a little bit more literality or a little more specificity. That doesn't need to be a wedge between us and everybody else. That's the second thing, right?

Austin Archer [02:15:50] And it's only a problem in my mind when it's being used to hurt people. So, like, yeah, of course. It's like I've had so many conversations over the years with different Christians, evangelical Christians and, and people about their beliefs. On, like, like, I, I remember meeting this girl once at a bar in, in New York and she told me that she was really Christian and we were drinking together and I said I was like asking her about her beliefs. And she goes, yeah, but I'm really open. I really, really. Just the way I believe it is that like, like believing in Jesus just helps me be more kind to people.

Austin Archer [02:16:18] And I'm sitting there nodding, going, yeah, and I was really agreeing with her. And then I said, I have a question that I'm afraid to ask you. And she goes, what is it? And I said, I just, I said, I really like a lot of what you're saying, but I'm afraid to ask this question. She goes, just asking. I said, what are your thoughts on, on people being gay and people being trans and stuff? And she goes, oh, well, look, I love everyone in that community, but I just, I just believe that God's been very clear on that. And I was like, oh man, you were so close.

Austin Archer [02:16:42] You were so close to saying a lot of nice stuff because I don'. Like now I think, like, you see, like. And then I go, so what? So I, I take her down the rabbit hole. I go, okay, so explain to me why in the Bible that's a bad thing. And she goes, well, it says so in Leviticus. And I go, says so in Leviticus, right? And I go, why don't we do any of the other things from Leviticus? And she's. And she goes, you're getting kind of aggressive now. I go, no, no, no, I'm just trying to help you. I'm just trying to see if you can follow me on this thread.

Austin Archer [02:17:03] Why don't we do any of the other things in Leviticus? And she goes, well, because Christ came down and he fulfilled a lot of the Levitican lie. I go, yeah, you know, good, good. You know that. That's awesome. Cool. So if you fulfilled all that Levitican lie, how come you're still getting on about that one thing in Leviticus? And she goes, see, I don't like this. I feel like you're really being rude. And I'm like, no, I'm not being rude. I'm telling you that you're holding epistemology. You're holding onto a thing. You're being really literal about this one thing that actually, according to you, shouldn't even matter.

Austin Archer [02:17:30] But because pastors were in the church that you were growing up in told you that we can't budge on this thing, you're hurting people with this belief. People are being actively hurt. And everything else about your belief set is beautiful and is good and is good for you and makes you a better person. And it's bumming me out that this one biblical misinterpretation, like this misunderstanding that you're taking very literally is making you kind of a person who's hurting people. And, like, I want for you to be able to unpack that and go, oh, yeah, maybe we got that wrong. And maybe I don't need that.

Austin Archer [02:18:05] Maybe that's not useful for me. How does that serve you? How does thinking that two people being in love and getting married is bad? How does that serve you? How does that help you be a better person? How does that help you be a better neighbor, a better father, a better brother, a better son? I don't see how that helps. How. How looking at two people's love and going, that's bad. You guys are bad for doing that or looking at someone saying, the experience I'm having is when I look in the mirror, I don't match what I feel inside. I'm having the experience of feeling like I'm a different gender than what I see in the mirror.

Austin Archer [02:18:38] And I. That's all I can tell you in saying you're Wrong, wrong. You're bad. How does that help you be a better person? To be so literal about that and to be so hard line about that? And so I absolutely agree that it doesn't matter to me what you're calling it or how it's working in your life if it's making you a better person. But if you got stuff that's not serving you, that's not helping you be more loving, more accepting, more compassionate, then ditch it. Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:19:05] What about the argument I'm putting on my conservative, my very conservative Christian brain right now? What about the argument? Because if I were in that conversation, conversation with you, what I would have said to you back in the olden days, this is again very borderline bigoted of Carah's old, old brain is I would have said, well, I am. It's a form of loving somebody because there's only two genders and that doesn't exist. Or like two people being in love, that still is not God's order for things. And so by denying them their sexual orientation, by denying their, their gender identity, I'm actually showing a form of love because what they're doing is not biblical. Biblical or it's not God's way. I'm trying to bring them into the

John Dehlin [02:19:40] truth or something natural.

Austin Archer [02:19:41] Yeah, I remember when, when the church made that proclamation that they then, they had then walked back about a year ago about how, you know, children of, of gay parents can't be the exclusion policy. I remember a lot of people saying, it's actually a policy of love. And I just, you know, and there's a great saying that says there's no, there's, there's no hate like Christian love.

Austin Archer [02:20:05] And I just, just, man, I, I, my response to that would be, you do not get to tell someone else who is telling you that you are hurting them that you're not. You just don't. In any situation, you don't get to tell someone who is saying, what you're doing right now is causing me a lot of pain. You are actively hurting me. You are actively making my life harder and you are actively harming me. You don't get to look at that person and say, no, I'm not. I'm actually helping you. You really don't get to do that. That's just not something that makes sense. And that, that is fair or humane and it's such a way of allowing yourself to stay in a place that is actually not helping you either.

Austin Archer [02:20:46] It's harming you. It's putting distance between you and other people and you and other experiences. And it is, I think that it's the way that people rationalize it is I'm actually being loving. I'm actually being compassionate. And I even had a friend once who was gay and lds, who was practicing, who had decided to be celibate, who said, he goes, isn't it the same as like, you? You choose not to drink. You're choosing not to drink because it was, it was causing you harm. And he goes, and people support you in that choice. He goes, so why can't you support me in choosing to be celibate?

Austin Archer [02:21:18] And I said, listen. And I'm not gonna say his name. I said, listen, bud, whatever you want to do with your life, I'll support you. It's your choice. You're an autonomous individual, and I support that. My argument will be, alcohol was actively detrimental to my health and to everyone around me. I was harming relationships. I was harming my ability to work. I was going to harm myself. I was going to die if I kept drinking.

Austin Archer [02:21:42] I don't believe that you being in a loving relationship with another adult and having a healthy person, a healthy sexual relationship where that person loves you, you're their number one. They have a favorite meal that you make. They have a favorite joke that you tell, they, you know, like, I don't believe that that experience is going to cause you harm. I don't believe that that experience is going to take away from your life. I think it's going to add a lot to your life, actually. And I also don't believe that you being authentic in who you are and owning who you are is going to be a bad thing for you.

Austin Archer [02:22:18] I still own the identity of being an alcoholic and that honesty of talking about it and having the thumbnail and saying, yes, I'm an alcoholic. Being upfront with that is empowering for me. Owning the fact that I have this, this problem and this illness.

Austin Archer [02:22:34] So I, I, I've heard all these arguments, you know, that it's, it's love or why can't you just, if people want to choose to still be in the church and be abstinent, why can't you let them do that? And I'm like, I believe that we have evidence to show that it's detrimental to their health. I think we have lots and lots of evidence to show that it's actually not, not healthy to do that.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] So, so, yeah, so, yes to all of this. I'm glad we, we talked about it. But I, I don't want to lose Track also of kind of. The second point I, I'm really feeling is quite powerful, which is we as post Mormons, as ex religious people, secular people, whatever it is you want to call us, we have to be careful to, to fall into the trap of only noticing the differences between us and our believing friends and family and community without acknowledging that in many instances there are way more things that unite us.

Austin Archer [02:23:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:32] Than divide us.

Austin Archer [02:23:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:33] So that's. I.

Austin Archer [02:23:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:35] Everything you guys said. And I still think that point stands.

Austin Archer [02:23:39] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [02:23:39] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:23:40] Back to what he was talking about before the talking with that woman at the bar or whatever. Like, about kindness.

Austin Archer [02:23:45] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:23:46] There's so many things that we, we strive for as a community that I think is innate within us.

Austin Archer [02:23:50] I actually think, I mean, there's a lot of problems dogmatically, but I actually think that problem number one facing Christianity is their stance toward the queer community. It is like the biggest thing that is hindering people from really living a life that is fully, like compassionate and loving. And because everything else. You're so right. We have so many aligned values. And it's this one thing that I'm like, like that's really holding you back from being great and from being really useful and help.

John Dehlin [02:24:19] There's also some very misogynistic religion still. Oh, totally.

Austin Archer [02:24:23] 100 well. And homophobia and transphobia is rooted in misogyny.

Carah Burrell [02:24:27] Yeah.

Austin Archer [02:24:28] It's rooted in the idea that especially like, you know, because it's really especially hard toward like gay men because it's this idea that like be being in touch with your feminine, feminine side is bad. Had. And it. So yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:42] Gender binary hurts us all.

Austin Archer [02:24:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:46] All right. And the only third point I was going to make is going to come back to the Sean McCraney interview with, with, with Anthony Magnabasco. We had this, this ex Mormon Christian pastor on Mormon stories a few weeks ago and he was just like, I reached rock bottom as a drug and alcoholic, drug addict, alcoholic, you know, sexual acting out. I realized that if I didn't turn my life over to Jesus and what he meant was evangelical Christianity, biblical evangelical Christianity, that I would, you know, end up killing someone or end up dead in a gutter.

Austin Archer [02:25:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:26] And. And just like you realize that alcoholic Alcoholics Anonymous was maybe your only way out for you, there are people for whom Mormonism even bigoted.

Austin Archer [02:25:43] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:44] You know, or fundamentalist, like judgmental, rigid, even unhealthy Mormonism. There are probably many people that, that for them it really is either that or death. I know that sounds extreme. No, but we as ex Mormons, we as post Mormons, we as secular people, people, maybe we need to extend. And then Shama Craney told us that was him for evangelical Christianity, that there are, there are orthodox Mormons that we pull our hair out, but we need to remind ourselves to have charity for those people because we don't know what battles they have fought or are fighting.

John Dehlin [02:26:26] And in our desire to want to, like, become ex Mormon missionaries, to become evangelical about our secularism, we don't always. We're not smart enough to know when we're sometimes potentially playing with fire in ways that could wreck for us.

John Dehlin [02:26:47] Secularism may work and it may be the answer. It may make us healthy. Whereas that same secularism may literally be fatal for someone who's clinging to Mormonism as their only hope. The combination of community or dogma or literalism or fundamentalism or even bigotry, somehow that formula may be keeping them alive 100%.

Austin Archer [02:27:09] I think, I think that happens all the time. What I think it is, is it's a form of, in almost all of these instances, it's a form of ego death. It's a form of acknowledging that, that me running the show hasn't been working and I need to see if I can. If I can give my life to something else.

John Dehlin [02:27:28] Give me a simple plan.

Austin Archer [02:27:29] Give me. Yeah, and I'll do it. Yeah, exactly. And it is a form of just saying, I'm not the smartest guy in the universe. I'm not the smartest guy in, in the room. And the evidence is written all over me because I. My best thinking and my best plans led me here, led me broken, destitute, suicidal. And so in all of these instances, turning my life over to Jesus, turning my life over to Allah, turning my life over to Buddha, turning my life over to some therapist that's really, really good for me. Turn it, you know, like, turning my life over to a life coach.

Austin Archer [02:28:06] Like, it is a form of, I think in its purest sense, in its healthiest, purest sense, it is a form of genuine ego death. And saying, I don't want to keep trying to force the world to bend to my will. I just want to just be here in peace and just sort of try to experience the ride in a more Zen way. And, you know, it can become unhealthy in all kinds of ways. It can become unhealthy in 12 step programs where people become a little bit too codependent on each other and codependent on the program or on sponsorship, and they kind of make it their whole thing of, like, I'm not going to be okay if someone doesn't answer my phone call today, or I'm, you know.

Austin Archer [02:28:44] So I think that you want to try to approach it in a way where you're seeing the practicality of it, hopefully. But. But I do think that that's where it begins. It's a form of just recognizing that I'm not me trying my best on my own. Hasn't been cutting it and I need help.

John Dehlin [02:29:04] Yeah.

Austin Archer [02:29:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:07] And just a slight companion to that is if, as I just think. Think car. I think we forget this as ex Mormon, sometimes. You don't.

Carah Burrell [02:29:14] I don't. I watched my Mormon Stories interview this past weekend and I said all this,

John Dehlin [02:29:18] dialed it all in that back. We're so glad you're here.

Carah Burrell [02:29:21] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] No, because the rest of us, like, sometimes we get arrogant. I talked to Sean McCre about epistemic humility. I don't care what you believe, just be humble about it. Because nobody really knows. I mean, that's kind of agnosticism, but we need post Mormon humility where we're not just like, like the, the. The one way to be good is to realize it's all bunk and to be secular. Because that's arrogant. Yeah. And then can we. Can we have that space for belief and for Christianity or belief in God or religious devotion and not do it in an arrogant way where it's like, well, you need it, so you're weak and feeble. So, yeah, be religious. But I'm going to look down on you as being, you know. But, Carrie, you're saying you got that dialed in.

Carah Burrell [02:30:04] I really resonated with what Austin said about, like, I thought that I knew, like, how to run my own life, and it turns out I don't. The similar theme of what I think a lot of people who are lucky enough to go through an entire faith transition, as a lot of our listeners, is what's something like Mormonism where you know for sure that this is true.

Austin Archer [02:30:21] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:30:22] And then how many times have you gone From a total 180 shift in your brain where you thought something was true and now you recognize everything, all of the epistemology of how you got to that true truth was all false, and now you're on the other side and you are just now kind of at a different type of rock bottom of throwing your hands up in the air and saying, I actually don't know a crap about the world that sets you down at kind of a pace. So what that did to me is at least is I said I when the times in my life where I thought I really knew something turns out I don't.

Carah Burrell [02:30:50] I don't want to fall into that trap now where I think I know what's best for you. You should leave the church. I would hate, hate. I would hate to. For somebody to think that I know better for what for them than their own brain. They know their mental state. They know what they need. If religion is the thing that gets them out of bed in the morning. And they would be a different person without it. Like we're talking about The Sean, Sean McCraney. Who the hell am I to say what your brain chemistry needs? I can, I can show you evidence. I can show you how other people have worked it out if it's not working for you. Like, if I was a stay at home mom in a suburban neighborhood in Utah, uh, I'm not gay. I don't have like.

Austin Archer [02:31:26] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:31:26] I didn't have some like, outrageous feminist ideas of what I needed to like, I couldn't breathe within the church. I was fine within the church, but I just fundamentally knew it wasn't working because it wasn't true and it didn't resonate with me. So, yeah, I would hate for anybody to get the idea that. Me personally, that's why I call myself nuanceo.

Austin Archer [02:31:42] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:31:42] Of like, I would hate for somebody to say, like, kara thinks that I should do this. I'm like, kara thinks that you should just open yourself up to information and empathy and evidence. Evidence. And go with what the evidence tells you and what your brain. Like if you have depression and something about, you know, being in a service oriented, community based world and you do the best you can to, to be kind and loving to your gay friends, while also you have to technically sustain like a homophobic church and prophet. I get it. There's like, we all make choices like that.

Austin Archer [02:32:12] Well, and I mean, I've got a bunch of silly, stupid tattoos all over my body because when I was in my 20s, I wanted tattoos, but I, I, I couldn't get a tattoo that was like, important, that was like weight, you know, like something that was like a saying cliche. Well, and also because what Mormonism taught me is I never know what I'm gonna think in five years. I don't know what I'm actually gonna believe. So if I get something on my body that's permanent, that stupid to begin with. So I would get silly things or like things that were really things that seemed like my very first tattoo was a mom Tattoo like a heart with mom in it with an arrow through it.

Austin Archer [02:32:42] I'm like, I'll always love my mom. And like, you know, that's easy enough. And like, it's also kind of fun and kind of ironic. And so like I was doing very hipster things, just getting like ironics. I got like a tattoo of like a robot that's like fighting a city that's like, you know, like a big like robot. And like, I just have these silly things, you know. And then the few times that I have gotten tattoos that were meaningful to me, it bit me in the ass. I got Michael Jackson tattooed on my arm because he's my hero. And then I was like, oh no, I have a bad guy on my arm.

Austin Archer [02:33:13] Like that HBO documentary came out and I was like, like I knew not to get a tattoo that meant something to me, you know, so. But it just, it is interesting the ways that you can change. And I think that is a great thing that, that leave having a faith transition or any kind of transition opens you up to is the idea that, that you should always be open to the idea that I might be wrong or that I can be, I can, my mind can change and I can evolve.

Austin Archer [02:33:40] I had the mindset like John was saying that, that people who have to go to a 12 step program to get sober are weak people. People who have to go, fine, I guess I'll have God and I'll pretend that God's real to get sober. I was like, oh, you weak minded fools that can't just acknowledge the reality that of course there's no God. And you know, like I, I really thought they were weak minded people. After doing it, I genuinely believe that there's some of the, the strongest people that I've ever met in my life. And the, and it is that ability to embrace that death of ego and say I'm not the guy, I'm not the person who has all the answers.

Austin Archer [02:34:18] And that is one of the lessons I should have learned from leaving Mormonism. But I think that there is a tendency, like John saying, to, in the ex Mormon space, do a bunch of research on a bunch of, bunch of things and then start feeling pretty, pretty enlightened and pretty smart and like, you know, and you get right back into the same trap, trap of feeling like I'm smarter than everybody else. And that is sort of the atheist stereotype. And there's one way the arrogant atheist, the person who thinks everyone else is an idiot and a sheep, and, and I definitely, I think went into that space A little bit as an atheist thinking that anyone that believes in any kind of. Yeah. Is.

Carah Burrell [02:34:54] Yeah, yeah. People need different things. Yeah, it's the healthiest motto that I could possibly put forward of like people need different things. You might need aa. That, that's, that's the thing. Other people, they need different things. And who are we to say exactly what they should need? I don't know. I haven't walked in your shoes. I don't know your brain.

John Dehlin [02:35:10] So I have to really quickly shout out to Chad Gardner. I don't know if you can show that comment, but Chad, Chad is a, a friend of mine that I met recently and he's got some pretty strong thoughts and feelings around AA and, and we hope to have Chad on at some point when it makes sense. But mostly thanks Chad for the super chat chat. I don't think we mentioned in this episode that for those of you who are on YouTube, you can support this program by clicking on the little dollar sign button wherever it shows on your YouTube user interface. And you can actually donate to support Carah and support me, support, you know, this studio, etc.

Austin Archer [02:35:47] Oh, do that.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] There's another. Yeah, there's another super chat from LC who says, can we also acknowledge that Carah's hair is gorgeous today and that's

Carah Burrell [02:35:56] trying to keep up with Austin's.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] That's worth a super chat. By the way, one of the listeners wrote Turtleneck and Blazer. Are you kind of wearing a turtleneck and blazer today?

Austin Archer [02:36:04] A little bit, yeah. A little bit of an homage. You know, it's like a button down, open shirt, coat and blazer. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:12] And that for those of you don't know, one of one of Austin's most viral TikTok videos is a song called Turtleneck and Blazer which has a derivative that was like a high budget derivative. You told us about the. That let's include that in addition to chat Austin's Tick Tock channel in the show notes. Yeah, let's include a link to the Turtleneck and Blazers derivative. Where can people find that?

Austin Archer [02:36:39] Oh, on Tick Tock and like, you know, they can find it on my YouTube channel. Austin Archer. They can.

John Dehlin [02:36:45] You did the, the High production.

Austin Archer [02:36:47] Yeah, so I did. So it was these three guys did it. A lot of people were doing their own version of Turner like in Blue Blazer for a while and they would, you know, put them on Tick Tock and stuff and they were doing their own version of the song. But these three guys just crushed it. They were hands down the best version. That was the. It's Kevin Chamberlain, who's a Broadway actor who's done some stuff on the Disney Channel, and two of his friends and they're these like three bald dudes with mustaches and they just look like almost like three twin brothers or something.

Austin Archer [02:37:13] And they were all wearing turtlenecks and blazers and doing this like. It was an amazing video. So it went huge. It was, it was everywhere on the Internet. And so I teamed up with them and did another song called Mustache Respect. And it was the biggest flop that any of us had ever done. But we had fun.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] Yeah.

Austin Archer [02:37:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:31] Well, so to. I don't know how much else you want to share about your AA journey, but I do want to kind of summarize. Like.

Austin Archer [02:37:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:37:40] And I think as I'm thinking about people in my life who aren't necessarily alcoholics, but that maybe they're addicted to video games or maybe they're addicted to again, marijuana in an unhealthy way.

Austin Archer [02:37:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:52] Or maybe they're addicted to food or maybe they're addicted to social media or whatever. Like addiction is something that plagues us all.

Austin Archer [02:38:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:00] In one way or another. We just have different forms of self medication. So to summarize the. The principles that help helped that worked for you to get out of unhealthy coping, if you had to summarize them, and it can be borrowing from the A model or just other. What would you say as kind of the summary points to overcoming unhealthy coping if you had to summarize it.

Austin Archer [02:38:28] Brutal, relentless honesty. Like almost challenging yourself to see how honest you can get. Like, there's a thing in the AA preamble that says an alcoholic is a person who is constitutionally incapable of being honest.

Carah Burrell [02:38:39] Honest.

Austin Archer [02:38:39] And every time I heard that, I kind of took it as a challenge. I was like, wow, that's. That's a big like, like thing to throw down. Like, are you constitutionally incapable of being honest? Are you just incapable of looking at yourself and doing an honest self examination? So brutal, relentless, almost. You know, I mean, just like how. How honest can you get? How real can you get about what your. Your shortcomings are and where, where the problems lie?

Austin Archer [02:39:05] Service. Just really, really focusing on service and how you can be of use to people and how you can be of help to the, to the people around you and some form of ego death, some form of. Of relinquishing control to something else and hopefully doing it in a healthy way, not doing it in a way where, you know, you have to look at what you're being asked to do because there are forms. It's. This is a dangerous thing. This thing of relinquishing control of my life to something else. Because this is why we have the stereotype of, like, unhealthy codependent cults. Because you might be relinquishing your decision making in your entire life to something like Keith Ranieri Nexium, where, like, there are layers to it.

Austin Archer [02:39:49] And every time you get to a new layer, you're rewarded with a new color sash. But you're also being told weirder and weirder things to do that you can't really see the reason for. But you're being told that the test is. Can you just do. I mean, Keith Ranieri was doing stuff like asking people to drink puddle water in front of him just to test how committed they were.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] And we know Jim Jones.

Austin Archer [02:40:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:07] Before he poisoned everyone with actual poison Kool Aid, he would test his congregation by giving them Kool Aid and telling them it was poisoned and just when it wasn't. Yeah, but it was these obedience tests.

Austin Archer [02:40:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:19] That were. It's a form of unhealthy influence.

Austin Archer [02:40:22] So you definitely want to be looked at. Look at. At what you're being asked to do. Is what I'm being asked to do reasonable? And. And. And does it make sense? Does you know, like, ask yourself these questions? Because it's not just give your life over to anything. Because there are a lot of things that you can give your life over to that will make your situation worse.

John Dehlin [02:40:39] Keep your wits about you.

Austin Archer [02:40:40] Yeah. And keep your wits about you and think. And so that my experience with this has been everything I've been asked to do makes sense to me. It makes sense. Why taking time in the morning to meditate and think about how I want my day to go.

John Dehlin [02:40:51] Intentionality.

Austin Archer [02:40:52] Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense to me. Why that would help. It makes sense why service works because it helps me step outside of my own experience and practicing that being available to other people. Practicing the simple thing of when someone asks, can I help them? Always saying yes. My impulse is a lot of the time to go. I can. I'm not available. I'm really busy. But I try to make it a practice of if someone asks, hey, can you help me do this thing? I try to make a practice of saying yes no matter what.

John Dehlin [02:41:19] What.

Austin Archer [02:41:19] What it is, and making time for it. And I can see how that's useful. So, you know, an ego death to something that you can see why it would be useful, you know, And. And that you can see the fruits of you can see people who have done it, and it seems to be working in a good way in their lives.

John Dehlin [02:41:39] So it seems like human connection. And Chad is even mentioning this in the chat that. I mean, having a sponsor, having a role model, having a guy, and just having that interpersonal connection.

Austin Archer [02:41:50] Oh, yeah. And I think that even.

John Dehlin [02:41:52] Isn't that one of the biggest sponsor.

Austin Archer [02:41:53] Sponsor relationships can become unhealthy. They can become codependent and stuff like that. Just like therapists, relations, there can be, you know, and I think that what you're trying to do at the end of the day, like I said earlier, is it should be just as beneficial to the sponsor as to the sponsor. It is a. It is a reciprocal. A reciprocal relationship where it's two people helping each other stay in this mode of service, and it's this sort of. Of repeating cycle of. And all that person's really doing more than being a life coach or a. A commander or anything like that. All that person's really doing is outlining to you how the program was outlined to them.

Austin Archer [02:42:29] Someone told me how to do it, and now I'm telling you what they told me. And. And I mean. And that person that's helping me is checking in with the person who helped them going, is this how we did it? And always trying to make sure that they're not. Not getting too much of their ego wrapped up in it. So I do the same thing when I'm sponsoring. I asked my sponsor, hey, what did we do at this part? Is that. Is this how we do it? And he goes, yeah, no, we did this. And you write down this. And I go, oh, that's right.

Austin Archer [02:42:52] And then I go tell this person you're gonna write down that. You know, but it's like, it's not me going, oh, you've come to the right guy, Because I'm the guy with all the answers. It's just me saying, oh, well, someone told me it's this. And I'm gonna tell you what they told me that worked for me. And me being. Being, you know, accountable to that person helps me. It helps me stay in and. And stay focused on service. And so that's the core of what that relationship, I think, wants to be. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:19] And I also think. And maybe you said this at the beginning, maybe ego death is a part of this. But just. And you said honesty, but just being willing to admit you can't do it alone.

Austin Archer [02:43:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:29] And that you need. You need help. There's a humility there.

Austin Archer [02:43:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:32] Where it's almost like the military Breaks you down, religion breaks you down, down. You kind of need to hit that rock bottom and say, I can't do this alone.

Austin Archer [02:43:39] It's step one. Step one is. It's that. It's. It's just being able to. Because I. I use this word, surreal a lot. When you grow up seeing movies with people sitting in a circle saying, hi, I'm Susan, I'm an alcoholic. It's really surreal to be in that room, especially as a kid who was raised Mormon in Sandy, Utah. It's really weird to be in that room and to stand up and say, hey, I'm Austin. I'm an alcoholic. It's a really weird thing to say in front of a room of people. And it's a. It's a hard thing to get used to. I still. Three and a half years sober.

Austin Archer [02:44:12] I still am like, is that real? Am I. Am I being dramatic? Am I being a little. And I have to constantly go back and retread my story and go, no, I'm not. Because part of my disease is trying to convince me that I don't have one, that I'm fine, and that I can get back out there and drink like a normal person, because it's still there. It's still in my head, and it still wants me to go out there and destroy my life.

Austin Archer [02:44:36] So part of it is saying, are you sure that you got this problem? Maybe you're being, you know, so I have to retread the story and go, no, that was. None of that was good. That wasn't good. You know, and like I said, there's. There were fun times, but overall, like, it was gonna kill me. So.

Austin Archer [02:44:54] Yeah, but I think that's. That is a big thing, is getting used to the fact that it's okay. It's not a moral failing. It's not a. It's not a character failing. Like, nobody really knows what's going to happen when they start drinking or using drugs. You don't know if you're going to be one of those people who develops a problem or not. And it's nothing that anyone does intentionally. No one ever sets out to. No one plans on winding up in. In rehab or in a program or in jail.

Austin Archer [02:45:23] You don't set out to find yourself in. In these places. And that's all the evidence that you need to know, too, that, like, you're not really running the show here. Like, if things were going according to your plan, you wouldn't be here. It. You just keep running into issues where your. Your best decision making Just keeps running you into dead ends. So you're trying to just get to a place where you can admit it. I don't, I don't have a handle on this. I'm not managing this, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:52] Then a couple other things I really loved. Were you saying that like celebrating a week as a miracle, like celebrating the, the small victories, seems like that's a major or like going a month. Well, that's why those are, those are, that's a big deal. Right?

Austin Archer [02:46:06] That's also why one day at a time is so important because it really is a thing where. And I've heard other alcoholics say this to me and I agree with it. I've heard other alcoholics with 5, 6, 6, 10 years sober say, I don't know how I'm going to stay sober for the rest of my life. I genuinely don't. And I, I feel the same exact way. I'm like, when I think about staying SOBER for potentially 50 or 60 more years, it. I'm just like, how, how could I possibly do that? And what I think I can do with reasonable certainty is I think I can make it to the end of today.

Austin Archer [02:46:36] I think I've, I think I've got today covered. And at this point I'm pretty sure I got, got the rest of the week covered too. But I try to keep it right here. I just try to keep it one day at a time. And that's how it happens because to a person who's first, starting out a week is insane.

Austin Archer [02:46:53] It's almost an impossible idea. And so you have to keep it at. Can you just do today, can you be here today? And keeping it simple the entire way is kind of the way to go. Just going. Don't ever get ahead of yourself. Don't ever leave this space. Just can you, can you make a commitment to showing up today and trying to be of service today, Trying to find someone to help today, Trying to be a little bit better today?

John Dehlin [02:47:17] I love you sharing that there's someone you're sponsoring now who like keeps relapsing. But, but you've got some rule that as long as long as they're calling you and checking in and showing up,

Austin Archer [02:47:29] as long as they. Something right, if they keep coming back, then they keep coming back back.

John Dehlin [02:47:33] You don't. As long as they keep coming back, you don't drop them.

Austin Archer [02:47:36] Yeah. There is no. Unless, you know, relationships can become abusive. If a person is becoming toxic or abusive or detrimental to my sobriety, then like, yeah, that's a problem. But If a person is struggling with consistency, but they keep making phone calls and they keep coming back and they keep displaying a desire to do it, then I'm not, I'm. I'll keep showing up, you know, and so it's not really up to me when they get it or when it clicks or when they're able to put together consistency.

Austin Archer [02:48:06] If, if a person is willing to continue to show up, I'll keep showing up. But it, yeah, it can also. I've also had experiences where people have, like, continued to call me, but they, they call and it's very toxic and they're like, yelling at me and be, you know, being very, like, verbally abusive and stuff. And I have to say, hey, we can't work together if that's how you're going to act. And it's not. Just keep it really clear and simple.

John Dehlin [02:48:28] Yeah, I remember Sam Harris saying that with something like meditation, I think working out is the same way. Even if you show up and do it for like two minutes, there's a real power in just the regularity of practicing the regularity. Even if you don't necessarily have a successful, you know, day or exercise or meditation, but just getting in the habit of, like, thinking about it and trying, it's easy to underestimate the value of just being in the game.

Austin Archer [02:48:57] You're showing up for yourself. You're showing up. There's this idea that if you don't have a magical experience every time you meditate, if you don't punch through the astral plane and leave your physical body, and that you failed at meditation, but it's more of just a practice of showing up for yourself. It's just a practice. Yeah, there's.

John Dehlin [02:49:19] There's some people who are asking, well, I smoke. Well, I wish there was an AA for smokers or I'm thinking about drug addicts. Like, do drug addicts go to aa? Yeah, there's other forms. There's, like I said, there's overeating and, and video games and social media. Like, are. Is AA for all sorts of things?

Carah Burrell [02:49:36] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:37] And if not, you said yes, but if not, what are the other.

Austin Archer [02:49:41] They have essay, you know, like, like Sexaholics Anonymous. They have na, Narcotics Anonymous. They have ma, Marijuana Anonymous. They have ca, Cocaine Anonymous.

John Dehlin [02:49:50] Those things exist.

Austin Archer [02:49:51] Oh yeah. And they have, they have 12 step programs for people who aren't addicts, for people who are family members of addicts and struggle. Al Anon. Yeah. Is a, a group for people who, you know, my best friend died of this disease. Two years ago. Almost two years ago. Exactly. He died about two year. Two years and seven days ago. And I'm very good friends with his mother. I have a good relationship with her and she gets a lot of comfort out of Al Anon because she had to deal with. It was very hard for her to deal with this person with this disease. It's a disease that can be really hard on family members.

Austin Archer [02:50:27] And also Al Anon is a place where I think that. Because I think the 12 step method could be useful to anyone. I think just practicing a program of service and humility could be really useful. And I think that Al Anon is that pla. That space for like if you're just a, A person who just wants some kind of framework to that to help you try to live a more sane and serene and peaceful existence, maybe this is good for you. You know, could be useful. But yeah, they've got it for all kinds of things.

Mormon Addiction Recovery Programs and Pornography

John Dehlin [02:50:59] I have to ask this. We've covered a lot of Mormon stories. The Mormon churches co opting of the AA model for their addiction recovery ARP program where they're basically treating people who masturbate once a week or once every three weeks. And they're basically. They took the AA model, injected it into this, this weird law of chastity prohibition.

Austin Archer [02:51:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] And they're turning a bunch of normal, normally behaving humans into quote addicts. Yeah. That's having all sorts of horrible collateral damage to individual mental health and to marriages.

Austin Archer [02:51:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:51:41] Do you want to make a statement about that?

Austin Archer [02:51:43] Sure. You know, I've got some friends who have gone through that program and, and.

John Dehlin [02:51:52] For someone who really cares about aa.

Austin Archer [02:51:54] Yeah. And I, well and, and I, I. If it works for them, if it helps them have a better relationship and their. With their wife, if it makes them, them feel like they've got a better family life. I don't want to take anything away from them. I will say that I do get frustrated with the way that the label addict is sort of co opted in that sense because I feel like it's a problem that is being directly created by a sex negative and sexually oppressive culture. And so it's kind of like. Well, there would be, wouldn't be a problem if you could just acknowledge that what they're doing is actually normal and very human and not problematic.

Austin Archer [02:52:36] I, I think I said this yesterday and I'll say it again, that sex addiction is a thing and it can become compulsory to the point of being detrimental to people's lives where they, they can't stop Doing it. They, they can't either. They're doing it several times a day. It becomes all encompassing.

John Dehlin [02:52:53] Abusing others.

Austin Archer [02:52:54] Yeah, they're abusing others. They're not able to show up for their relationships. It becomes unmanageable. It becomes something that needs to be addressed. I think what happens a lot of times in this culture is that if it's there at all, if you discover at all that a person is looking at porn at all, or masturbating. Yeah. Once a week, once a month at all. Having a problem with it. It's like the sky is falling and I don't know if we're going to be able to keep this marriage together. You're a pervert.

John Dehlin [02:53:21] Filthy.

Austin Archer [02:53:22] I can't believe you've been hiding this gross, dark secret. And part of the problem is that we're not teaching our young women in the LDS faith comprehensive enough sex education. We're not teaching. And we're not teaching the boys comprehensive enough sex education. But we are teaching the boys, hey, you're kind of a sex monster that can't stop doing this thing, so you need to keep it in your pants as much as you can. And we're teaching the girls watch out for the boys because they're a bunch of uncontrollable sex monsters. And we're not teaching them. Them a. That they have a libido too, that they should form a healthy relationship with.

Austin Archer [02:53:55] And we're not teaching any of them that. It's that your, your desires and your drives are normal and healthy and human and evolutionarily programmed into you. And there's nothing you can't fight hard enough to get rid of them. And get. Trying to fight to get rid of them actually has been proven to have a lot of detrimental psychological effects. And so I think, think I. You just see marriages fall apart and families fall apart because of this awful problem. And then you find out like, oh, that was the problem. And that. And then it's kind of.

John Dehlin [02:54:24] Almost everyone was doing it.

Austin Archer [02:54:26] Yeah. And it's kind of.

John Dehlin [02:54:26] People lied about it.

Austin Archer [02:54:27] It's sad.

John Dehlin [02:54:28] Including the bishops are doing it.

Austin Archer [02:54:29] Yeah. And it's sad because it, it's a thing that I don't think needs to be that heavy of a problem. And I think again, where I go back to. Are your beliefs serving you? Are your beliefs helping you be a better person? Are your beliefs helping you? And that's a belief where I'm like, like it's breaking up a lot of relationships and families and tearing a lot of people apart. Psychologically and making them feel a lot of shame and self hatred. And I don't think that's a belief that serves you. I think if it's a belief that makes you feel like you're a bad person, because me knowing that I'm an alcoholic, I don't feel like a bad person.

Austin Archer [02:55:01] I'm not like, Jesus, why, why I'm such a. I'm not beating myself up. I'm not trying to contain this thing. I'm not trying to hold it down. What I know is that in active alcoholism, I was. Was harming myself and others. In active alcoholism, I was doing detriment to my own, my own life. The only reason people who masturbate sometimes are causing harm to their family is because of a culture that tells them that that behavior is harmful. It isn't, on its own, separate from the culture, a thing that's actually doing any real damage.

Austin Archer [02:55:35] So again, to reiterate, right, Compulsory damaging sex addiction is a thing that can exist. I think a lot of times in LDS culture it can. People who have a healthy, normal libido can be convinced that they have a very dangerous problem that they should be ashamed of and feel bad about, when really what they need to do is just learn that it's okay and that it's really okay. In fact, it will help your relationship for both of you to embrace a healthy view of your. Your desires. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:07] Yeah, Makes sense.

Carah Burrell [02:56:09] Yeah. It reminds me again of the rubber band thing of like very much a sexually, sexually repressed. Sometimes it comes out in other ways. And not that it's ever been a problem in my marriage. My husband was scared out of his mind to ever look at porn. Yeah, good job, Mormon church. He's told him he was going to hell. Never looked at it once. That was fine. But for just about every other Mormon marriage that I know about, it's less about, you know, your husband's looking at porn. It's more about the lies, the lies on top of lies. Because he said he wasn't and he was doing it behind my back.

Carah Burrell [02:56:36] And like, I don't, I technically, I don't want my husband looking at porn. I get that as a Mormon wife and as an ex Mormon wife now, I understand that mentality. But if you don't like what you just said, take into the culture of a sex negative culture, you have to unpack a lot of that to even be able to, like, have a conversation about it. There's so much more. And so anytime we bring up porn on this podcast, a lot of people Accuse us of being like hooray for porn. And like with Natasha, we're like pro porn here and it's like you guys have to have a mature conversation about it.

Carah Burrell [02:57:05] It's not that we're pro porn, we're pro a lot of things. And I think you just, you spoke really wonderfully to that of like, you know, assessing what your values actually are too.

Austin Archer [02:57:13] So you know, when I, when it even comes to that industry and examining that industry and people who work in the industry just as a job job, just as a job that exists, sex work and, and porn work, you know, people will say what about how detrimental the industry is or how misogynistic the industry is. And my response to that is if you actually investigated the industry, you would find that yes, there are productions that are very misogynistic and detrimental to the people who are working on them, but if you investigated any entertainment industry, you would find that as well.

John Dehlin [02:57:41] Or any religion.

Austin Archer [02:57:42] Or any religion.

Carah Burrell [02:57:44] Yeah, but if you care about misogyny,

Austin Archer [02:57:46] I got in, ironically enough. And again, not to be quote unquote, pro porn, but there are more female producers and directors in the adult film industry by a by 10 football fields margin than there are in Hollywood.

John Dehlin [02:57:59] There are Mormon bishops.

Austin Archer [02:58:00] Well, than there are in Hollywood. Like in, like in just like the mainstream film industry. Like there are so few, staggeringly few successful big name female directors and there are tons of female directors and producers of, of porn who have their own industry, who have their, they've, they've built their own production companies from the ground up themselves that is like mostly female and queer run. And so there is a lot of, of really healthy representation in the adult industry that, that goes unnoticed or untalked about and it sort of gets boiled down to it's all bad.

John Dehlin [02:58:34] And yeah, and I think, I think our point again is not yay porn, pro porn. It's, it's people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

Austin Archer [02:58:42] Yeah, yeah. And also just like do, do actual investigation on something before you just sort of blanket go, it's all bad. It's clearly bad. It's a bunch of evil people who are, have no morals. And it's like, well no, there's, there's going to be good and bad in, in a lot of industries. And yeah, well said. Yeah, it's just a job. It's.

John Dehlin [02:59:02] Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people

Austin Archer [02:59:03] it is all right.

Carah Burrell [02:59:04] Sex work is work.

Austin Archer [02:59:05] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:59:07] As we all like to say, everything here go on.

John Dehlin [02:59:09] So for me, this, unless there are the things you want to Say about your. About your alcoholism, your AA experiences.

Austin Archer [02:59:18] I think we got it.

John Dehlin [02:59:19] This kind of covers part two.

Austin Archer [02:59:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:21] And there. And it's been beautiful and powerful and we've gotten so many good comments from our viewers on Facebook and on YouTube and. And we know our listeners are. Are really valuing this as well. Well, there is a third part that I kind of want to cover, and I just don't know if we should cover it real quick or start a part three. It's up to you. It's just kind of like the reemergence of your career. And I think there's a lot of people that, you know, my brother Alan Mount, you know, Carah, others, A lot of us are like, hey, we've tried our hand at Instagram or social media or TikTok and YouTube and you know, or we're trying to make a difference in the world.

John Dehlin [02:59:59] World. And it's sort of like, how do you. How do you be successful at this? And like, you know, we're 40,000, 45,000 YouTube subscribers or like, you know, more. Our podcast probably has 100,000 listeners, or our TikTok is now up to 91,000, thanks to Carah and our amazing interviewees. But, like, you've done something significant. You've taken a social media platform or two or three, and. And they've been able to obtain like a million plus followers. I want to talk about that. And I. All I'm asking is, should we do that now or should we take a break and do that as a third part? Do you have a.

Austin Archer [03:00:36] Do you have a. I think I. I think I can keep going if you want to keep going.

John Dehlin [03:00:39] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:00:40] Yeah.

Austin Archer [03:00:40] Because I don't. Yeah.

Building a Social Media Career on TikTok

John Dehlin [03:00:41] So that's part three. Part three is how did Austin become so freaking epic and successful in social media?

Austin Archer [03:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] What are some tips or what? What was your journey? Because we don't want to just end with you. Sure.

Austin Archer [03:00:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:54] You know, becoming alcoholic and then becoming sober.

Carah Burrell [03:00:56] Yeah.

Austin Archer [03:00:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:57] You were at New York. We left you at New York.

Austin Archer [03:00:59] I moved. I moved away from New York and moved back to South.

John Dehlin [03:01:02] How did you make that decision? To some would put in parentheses quit.

Austin Archer [03:01:06] Yeah, it's hard because there is a lot of that feeling of, I'm everyone. I'm gonna come back to town with my tail tucked between my legs. I went to the big city and it chewed me up and spit me out.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] All your friends knew it and your family.

Austin Archer [03:01:17] I just fell into rock bottom alcoholism and al. I'm back, you know, working for the other. The same old theaters. I used to work for and. But I. I made the choice to. I. So in a year, I did Mindhunter and I did this movie called the Night Clerk. That was feature film, is feature film. It's on Netflix. And it was another, like, big thing for me where I was. Again, the name, it's called the Night Clerk. And I was working with, like, John Leguizamo and Ty Sheridan and Ana de Armas and all these, like, really big actor names. And I had, like, a pretty good part in the movie.

Austin Archer [03:01:52] And. And it made me feel like, okay, maybe this is where I'm being pulled directionally in my career. Maybe I need to. Maybe I'm getting a little too old to be an ensemble guy in any musical on Broadway. And, like, I already knew that. Like, I kind of knew if I was gonna get a role on Broadway, it was gonna be a character actor or something like that. I thought maybe where. Where I'm more suited in the industry now is actually in film and I should be trying to get on a TV show show or something. And so I thought, I think I'm gonna go to la.

Austin Archer [03:02:18] I think I'm gonna try la and just consciously say, I gave New York three years. I never, at any point in those three years, really fell in love with the city. It never took. I. I've. I've really struggled there. There are a lot of things I love about my time there, but just sort of consciously letting it go and saying, I'm just gonna make a choice and move in a new direction now. I did a lot of things in early sobriety that you're. That are not recommended for you to do do. I moved twice. I moved to Salt Lake, then to la. I got into a relationship, like, right away.

Austin Archer [03:02:47] Like. Like, I started a relationship, like, almost instantly. And all of these things they try to say, like, don't do too many big life changes in your first year of sobriety, because it's enough that you're focusing on trying to kind of rework the way that you do stuff, that maybe before you start doing a bunch of stuff, let's rework the way that your methodology and try to get you on good footing here.

Austin Archer [03:03:14] So I didn't, you know, I'm. I'm stubborn and I didn't take a lot of the suggestions. But I. I came out to Salt Lake for, like, not nine months, and I did a couple plays with a few friends out here, you know, wrote some music, released an album, and then I went out to.

Austin Archer [03:03:34] To la. And the plan was not, I'm Going to go be a social media star. I'd been posting videos called to an account called Me and Me comedy since about 20, late 2015.

John Dehlin [03:03:51] That account still around?

Austin Archer [03:03:52] It's still around. People can go watch it. It's like, it's really funny. It's like watching like OG back in the day. It's like that. You see the seeds of what my Tick Tock account is now on that, that.

Austin Archer [03:04:01] And I did it because I was living in New York and I wasn't getting a lot of acting work. And me and me comedy was a way for me to just like, sort of have like a creative outlet that. And I would do like two videos a week sometimes and nobody was following me. It was my friends and family. And I had like 250 followers. And my friends and family would reach out and say, like, I think you're funny. Keep doing it. You know, And I was doing. They were really crudely edited. It was very like, I wasn't using any editing software or anything. And I was kind of like just walking around town in New York and I'd think of an idea and I would quickly shoot a Me and Me comedy sketch on Instagram.

Austin Archer [03:04:39] And that's where the account is. It's on Instagram. And so I was doing that and, you know, releasing my music and stuff to again, just my friends and family, making music videos for just my friends and family and doing plays here and there. And I went to LA with the idea that I'm going to try to see if I can make some headway in the film industry, see if I can meet the right kind of people and maybe find a community out there.

Austin Archer [03:05:12] Worked in a restaurant for the first year and a half that I was there, like many actors do. I worked in restaurants pretty much for most of my 20s. And about a year and a half into being there, the pandemic happened and I was furloughed from work and on pretty good unemployment, like, so I was just furloughed from work at the. At the restaurant. Restaurant, Yep. And you know, we were getting pretty good unemployment with that stimulus and with the, you know, where we were getting like for a while there, a thousand dollars a week unemployment. And for a restaurant worker, it's like, that's about what I make at the restaurant.

Austin Archer [03:05:47] So I'm fine. And with that free time of being at home and being sequestered, I just thought, well, I'll make more videos. The kind of videos that I make, the stupid little skits that I make. And I, I noticed that people were using TikTok more. And so I started posting some of my videos to TikTok that I had made on Me and Me comedy. And it was called Me and me because it was always me talking to myself. You know, it was like me and the other character is me as well. And I, again, I don't think I. I don't think I thought it was gonna.

Austin Archer [03:06:22] That I wasn't planning on that being the thing. I've always kind of had an idea about any kind of success, that no matter how talented you are, no matter how hard working you are, no matter how dedicated you are, you're gonna need some amount of luck. You're gonna need something to happen that you necessarily didn't have anything to do with that. Like somebody decided to give you an opportunity or somebody decided to take a chance on you.

John Dehlin [03:06:48] A break.

Austin Archer [03:06:49] Yeah, you're gonna need a break. And the biggest thing that had ever really happened to me as an independent artist or creator was like having that first. I think a lot of people relate to this in the last couple years who have been working on TikTok Tock, having that first big video. Like I said, I've been making videos for my friends and family for several years and getting, you know, 30 likes and a few comments from people saying, I like this one. This is funny. I posted this video to Tick Tock and it got like 200 real quick.

John Dehlin [03:07:18] How'd you do you remember hearing about Tick Tock?

Austin Archer [03:07:20] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:20] And like what that, like getting into. Getting into the Tick Tock on ramp, what that was?

Austin Archer [03:07:24] Yeah, I got in.

John Dehlin [03:07:25] Was it super early?

Austin Archer [03:07:26] I got in early and I. I instantly dropped it like a bad habit because I just was like, I don't know what this is. And it was a lot of kids who are doing things like lip syncing scenes to TV shows and stuff. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And then they were like doing dances and I was just like, yeah, I'm not doing. And I just felt very old and irrelevant instantly on the app. And there weren't a lot of people doing lots of different things. It was very still, like very new. And it was young people doing trends and stuff. And I posted a couple of my Me and me videos and they didn't do very well.

Austin Archer [03:07:54] And so in the pandemic, I saw that TikTok was kind of picking up. I just started noticing it getting shared more places it was getting shared on. There were TikTok compilations on YouTube and TikTok used to be a thing that people on The Internet used to put together cringe compilations from TikTok because it was known as being, like, a cringy platform that everyone that was on there was really like. Like the humor that they did was cringy. And so there's even a subreddit now called TikTok Cringe that started when TikTok was a cringe thing. And the subreddit has officially changed to have a masthead that says, this used to be about cringe content, but then TikTok became good, and so now it's not.

Austin Archer [03:08:31] So people always comment under videos on TikTok on the subreddit, TikTok cringe. And they go, why did you post this here? It's not cringy. This is an actually good video. And people are always like, read the. Read the subreddit description. It's no longer a cringe thing. It's just. It's good content now, and it has been for a couple years now. But I saw that it was picking up and that people were doing what I was doing. They were doing me and me stuff, and they were doing scenes and they were doing.

John Dehlin [03:08:54] Dialoguing with yourself.

Austin Archer [03:08:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:56] Changing your clothes.

Austin Archer [03:08:57] Yeah. Like, different characters and they were. They were funny and. And I was like, okay, I'll go on TikTok and do my thing. And again, still thinking, like, if I can get a thousand followers, that'll be cool. I'll do it for a thousand people. And I had this video. I remember the feeling, like I had this video that went up to like 250,000 views.

John Dehlin [03:09:16] When was. Was this? Like, what year?

Austin Archer [03:09:18] Early in the pandemic. So this is like February or March of 19 of 2020.

John Dehlin [03:09:22] 2020, yeah.

Austin Archer [03:09:23] So this is a year and a half ago. Yeah. And so. And I remember I was talking to my partner at the time. I was like. I was like. I was like, look, there's people. And I. Every time I opened my phone, it was like, you know, 300 new notifications. And I was like, I can't. Like, I've never had this before. And I was just gaining followers at a crazy clip.

John Dehlin [03:09:41] Do you remember what the clip was?

Austin Archer [03:09:42] It was, you know, it was crazy at the time. It was like, it was like 500 a day, you know, and for me, that was like, just insane to be just like, every day I have 500 more followers, and then the next day I'm like at a thousand, then I'm at 2000, then I'm at 3.

John Dehlin [03:09:55] What were your first viral video or two? What were they?

Austin Archer [03:09:57] It was. I People had this trend on TikTok where they would say, stop scrolling. And it was. They were being serious and they would be. So there were a lot of things on TikTok that I still found kind of cringy that I would like roll my eyes at. And so early on I was making fun of TikTok trends. That was my thing. That was my niche, niche. And it was this. People would be like, stop scrolling. Here's how I got to 50,000 followers in just two months. And then they would tell you some hack of how to hack the algorithm. And I'd be like, shut up.

Austin Archer [03:10:22] Like you don't know what you're doing. You just got lucky. And so I made a video of me dancing to a very popular TikTok song and like smiling at the camera and it said, like, here's how I got 34 followers in nine months. And it just said, first I downloaded TikTok. Then I added several people from my contacts and a few of them added me back. That's. It just was like smiling, like doing this, like dance, you know, and like that was the video. And people were like, oh, that's really funny. And like that, you know, like that you're making fun of the trend. And also because I was, I had 34 followers.

Austin Archer [03:10:53] I really was like, I'm not popular. And, and people self effacing. Yeah. And people liked it. And so then I started doing all these. I would do like these tutorials. Like, I would do a tutorial where I'd be like, here's how my videos. I edit my videos so Good on, on TikTok. And like I had this, this app at the time called Video Shop that would do a watermark in the top of your video. And I bake. First I downloaded Video Shop. You want an app that has a watermark in the top left so people know that you take this seriously. Like, you know, like I was like showing them all the little.

Austin Archer [03:11:23] The tricks to how to edit your videos. Then a thing happened where my Instagram account got hacked and stolen and I just lost my Instagram account. And, and it was the first time anything like that had happened. And like Instagram, it's. Facebook is one of the biggest companies to ever exist in the history of the world and they have the worst customer service imaginable. And I was just, I. I spent months sending emails to Instagram and Facebook going, can someone help me? My, my account was stolen and I can't get back into it and just never heard back from them ever. So I did a Video called here's how to get your account stolen.

Austin Archer [03:11:54] And like, I just was like, first just have your account stolen and then send months long of emails and no one will respond. And there you go. You got like, you know. And so I would do these stupid tutorials.

John Dehlin [03:12:04] Did you have to literally start your channel over?

Austin Archer [03:12:05] Yeah, I had to start a new. I had to start a new.

John Dehlin [03:12:07] What's that like? To have videos go viral to start.

Austin Archer [03:12:10] Well, so luckily it wasn't. There wasn't a channel that had viral videos. Like, TikTok was the place where things were going viral, and it was my personal Instagram account that got stolen, and I never got it.

John Dehlin [03:12:19] Okay, okay.

Austin Archer [03:12:20] So I had to start a new Instagram account. And for a while, I had like five accounts I was managing. I had an account called Austin Archer, the band that was my music. I had an account called Austin Archer that was just me. I had an account called Me and me comedy. That was my sketch videos. And I had people pleaser podcast. That was my podcast. So I was. There's too many. Too many places to try to be sending people. And your pal Austin was me on TikTok, and that was the place where I was really catching steam. And within about a month, I had like 10,000 followers.

Austin Archer [03:12:49] And that was just crazy for me. It was just like, I, I. And I had people reaching out and going, like, dude, like, you're popping up on places, you know? And it was a really weird feeling. And I think I didn't know at the time, but a lot of people were experiencing the same thing because the pandemic became just this. Like, every live performing artist, every person who plays music, every. Every standup comedian, every sketch performer, they lost their jobs. And they were like, well, I can't just sit at home and not entertain people. So they all started making content on TikTok. And TikTok just, just became this place for quality stuff.

Austin Archer [03:13:26] Like, and. And early on, too, it was also like a super supportive community. People were like. Like, everyone wanted to hype each other up. Like, we were all excited that we were all nobodies who weren't popular other places on the Internet who weren't celebrities getting an account, who weren't influencers on. Like, we were just nobodies who had some funny ideas who were getting noticed, and we were hyping each other up. Like, I started a series early on when I was doing TikTok called. And this is when I had like 10 or 11,000 followers, and I started a series called Austin's favorite underrated TikTok accounts with less than 50,000 followers.

Austin Archer [03:14:02] And I would find creators who I really liked what they were doing, who had like, you know, 6,000 followers or 20,000 followers, who I thought, like, this person should be famous. And I would do a video hyping them up. And it was that kind of energy that I was really attracted to, was that we were all like, like, it wasn't like, it's me or you. It wasn't competitive. It was like, there's enough room for everybody here, and I want, I want everybody to, to find their audience here. I want us to, like, start a revolution and like, and, and start a new, like a new wave of, of new media being a real strong sector in the economy.

Austin Archer [03:14:40] And I think that is happening. I think that new media is creating a genuine middle class for artists, which I think is really exciting. And anyway, you know, it was very exciting in the beginning. And of course, I got caught up in the toxicity of the algorithm, not giving you what you want all the time. And I hit a wall where I stopped growing at about 11,000 followers, and I didn't grow for about nine months. And I kept grinding on it. I just kept hitting it because I, I, I'd never had a window of opportunity like this ever in my career. I'd never seen a, a path open up that was so, like, you can use this, you can, you can market your music with this, you can market your podcast.

Austin Archer [03:15:26] You can tell people that you're a good actor with this. You can tell people you're a good writer with this. You can tell people that you, you have the skillset to work in this field. You can break through. Yeah. And so I, I, I just went, went at it with everything I had.

John Dehlin [03:15:38] And so somebody mentioned one of their favorite series of yours is you being in a boardroom with, with algorithm executives.

Austin Archer [03:15:45] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:45] You want to talk about that?

Austin Archer [03:15:46] Yeah, I do. I do a video, a video series where it's me talking to the Tick Tock headquarters about, like, what's going on with, like, there's one where a guy comes in and he goes, hey, I want to start an account. And they're like, sure, what do you want to do? And he's like, I don't know. Like, I've got maybe some funny videos where, like, I throw a frisbee to my dog, and my dog, like, in slow motion, gets hit in the head with the Frisbee, and they're like, yeah, dude, yeah. Oh. Oh, viral. Viral. And then they're like, and then if it's okay. Like, I thought I'd tell people about my podcast, and they're like, no, not at all.

Austin Archer [03:16:13] No, please don't do that. Like, we're going to tank that video. It's just like, okay, all right, I won't do that. You know, and then. And then the person's like, what if I do a video of, like, me falling down the stairs? And they're like, yes, yes, that's gold. You're viral. You're a sensation. And then the person's like, and then what if I do a video of, like, a political take? And he's like, you're banned. We're banning your account. Don't do that again. We're banning your. You know, and it's like. So it's kind of about the toxic relationship of like. Like trying to figure out what I'm allowed to do and what I'm not allowed to do on Tick Tock and, you know, realizing that they don't care if you have a million or 3 million followers, like, they'll ban you.

Austin Archer [03:16:48] They'll, They'll. They'll, you know, just to mess with you. Always just to, like, to make you more frustrated and make you post more and try to beat the, you know, you. You've dealt with this.

Carah Burrell [03:16:58] Yeah, it's like a. It's like an. I don't know, it's like an abusive boyfriend or something where it's like, is this serving you? Is this good? And it's like, this dinner's trash. But it's like, I worked all day on it. It's like I wanted McDonald's take out, you bitch. Like, it's just this whole, like. Like serving this algorithm.

Austin Archer [03:17:12] God, sometimes there's like, gaslighting, where they're like, you were never talented. Like, you just got lucky. You just got a few hits and you were never funny. No one ever liked you. And you're just kind of like, oh, I guess I thought. I thought for a second people liked what I was doing, but I guess not. And like, there. What you have to. So. So again, my advice for people trying to do this is always.

John Dehlin [03:17:32] You said you hit 10,000 and you plateaued.

Austin Archer [03:17:34] I plateaued. And I stopped for nine months and I didn't budge.

John Dehlin [03:17:36] You stopped for nine months?

Austin Archer [03:17:37] Nine months. Didn't budge. And it wasn't because I stopped posting. Now, I had a friend who was growing at a just a crazy rocket pace. And when I met this guy, he had about 400,000 followers on TikTok by the end of the first year. That I knew him, he was over a million. He's now at 8 million followers. He's just, he's one of the fastest growing accounts on the platform. And his methodology from the beginning has been three times a day every day. And he just posts content.

John Dehlin [03:18:02] Do you want to shout out who it is or.

Austin Archer [03:18:03] It's London Laz. He like, he's very, he's well known as like he pretends to be Macaulay Culkin from the Home Alone movies because little kids on Tick Tock don't know who Macaulay Culkin is. And London looks like he could be Macaulay Culkin. So he does a lot of videos where he's pretending to be Kullie Culkin or he does videos where he's got a Tesla that he, he'll mess up the seats of his Tesla. He'll like pour sauce all over his seats and kids like seeing people mess up expensive things. And so he, he, he does a lot of content like that.

John Dehlin [03:18:35] Like Danny Duncan.

Austin Archer [03:18:36] Yeah. You know, and it's, it's like, it's, you know, but London's, London's philosophy. And I think that London's spot on with this. And it's the only thing I can tell anyone about social media is it's a volume game. They don't really care about the quality of your video. They don't like, the algorithm doesn't give a shit. It like if you think the video is good, they care about the fact that you are on there and that you are feeding the like videos in. So it is, it is a, it's a volume game. It's. And it takes a lot of commitment and pushing through the lulls and the, the low, low periods.

Austin Archer [03:19:10] And you have to really, really want it and really keep at it and you'll get in slumps. And I always compare it to like a shooter being in shooting slumps. Like we talked last night, like Jordan Clarkson on The Jazz missed 23 straight three point this season after having made a three pretty good shooter. It's a pretty good shooter. And he had made a three pointer and at least or in at least one three pointer in like 110 straight games. And then he went like four games straight without making a three pointer, missed 23 in a row. And finally he had a game where he went like 9 of 11 and he, he just, he had to just shoot his way out of what must have been to him a stupefying slump.

Austin Archer [03:19:47] Like, I don't know why I'm doing it the same way I Always do it. I feel like it's the same feeling, it's just not going. And I think that with TikTok being 30 seconds, 60 seconds in such a small thing, you can't do this on YouTube. If you're trying to be a YouTuber making 15, 20 minute long videos or 30 minute or hour long videos, you can't post several videos a day. You just can't. No one can keep up with that pace. I think the best people can do with YouTube is like once or twice a week. You know, maybe with what you guys are doing with clips and stuff, you can, could upload clips every day and stuff like that.

Austin Archer [03:20:20] Breaking a big piece of content like this into smaller clips, which, which helps. But yeah, it's, it's a volume game. As far as I can tell. That's the only rhyme or reason I can make of it. Everything else is I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea why certain things go bigger than other things. I never know, I never know what's going to go big. People always try to track the time of day, the hashtags, the sounds that you use. I've tried it all. I've tried every little cheat code hack. There's trends on, on Instagram or on TikTok where they'll go, use this sound and you will go viral.

Austin Archer [03:20:54] And I'll click on the sound and every video that's used, it has millions of views and I'll go like, I mean it must be true. I'll use the sound totally tank. So like, I've tried every backdoor hack I can possibly find and the only thing that I've been able to ascertain is consistency. And keep being on your game, like just keep hitting it and like keep, keep doing stuff that you like, keep being honest, keep being genuine, get out of the game of trying to figure out what they want, what they want to see and just like keep doing you and keep being consistent. And I think what people are actually attracted to on TikTok is you.

Austin Archer [03:21:31] The person is what are you bringing to the table, what is interesting about you and your perspective. And that's what I found really became my voice. Early on I was doing a lot of skits and a lot of like running jokes and what became my voice was like, what really started working better was when I was like, this is me, this is what I'm about. And what my TikTok page and what my social media presence has really become about is like a psychological profile on me and like who I Am. What my beliefs are and what I think is funny, what I think is interesting, what I think is worth talking about and sticking in that space and just being relentless about.

Austin Archer [03:22:10] About showing up for my job every day and posting content and always being in the conversation and not worrying about what numbers each individual video is doing that at the end of the day. And I took London's advice, you know, finally I had. I had a video that boosted me up to, like, 60,000 followers. And London texted me that day because he saw it, and I owe this guy so much. Like, it's so cool of him. He was like, at 2 million followers at the time, and he really cared about that. He. He kept telling me he's like, someone

John Dehlin [03:22:39] you met in real life or just.

Austin Archer [03:22:40] Yeah, we did a commercial together. I did a commercial that he directed. And he was. That day, like, he went and looked at my page and he was like, I think you're really good. He's like, I think you could be really good on this platform. And he's like, you just need to do it more. And I was. At the time, I was doing a video, like, probably three or four a week. And he was like, no, you need to do three a day. And I was like, I can't. I don't have enough ideas for three a day. And he was like, just repost. Just repost old videos.

Austin Archer [03:23:03] Like, just. Just keep posting. And so when I had that video that went to, like, 60,000 followers, London texted me, and he goes, three videos a day for the next 30 days. Just do it. And I went, okay. And so I did. And this was in J. Beginning of January 2021.

John Dehlin [03:23:20] This year?

Austin Archer [03:23:20] Yeah, this year. And I did 30 videos or three videos a day for 30 days straight. And by the end of that month, I had 150,000 followers. And so I just was like, okay. And then he just hit. Hit me up. And he's like, you can get a million by the end of the year if you keep this pace up. Just keep doing it. So I didn't stick with three a day. I would do two a day. But I. You know, two a day. Sometimes three a day. But I posted every day no matter what. And I've. I've kept that up. I post every day on every platform, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on TikTok every day.

John Dehlin [03:23:50] That's pretty relentless.

Austin Archer [03:23:51] And it's. You know, and, like, I'm just under a million. And. And. And I don't. It's weird to say that, like, it's not really about Finding like, the right light or the right hashtag, as far as I can tell, it's about volume and commitment and consistency. And I think actually a lot of things in life are that way. But it's just kind of like, how much can you keep showing up? Like, how much can you take? How much rejection can you take, how much disappointment can you take? And keep showing up? Acting is definitely like that. If you can't get told 200 times in a row or get told no 200 times in a row and keep showing up to auditions, then you might not be able to go the distance with this career.

Austin Archer [03:24:32] But if you can keep finding ways to be active in your field, if you can keep finding ways. And it's not that the disappointments don't sting, because they do. And I think it's normal to feel like, damn, I thought that was a good video, or, damn, I thought I had a really good audition for that role. I thought I really had a good read on that role. Because, you know what might have happened with an audition is they might have gone, dude, that person crushed it. And you might have been in the top five, but they can only pick one. There's only one person that gets the job.

Austin Archer [03:25:01] And so you never know what's actually happening. When you're feeling rejected. It's. It's almost never personal. And when an algorithm is deciding how many views your video gets, how many people it's going to show your video to on the for you page, it's definitely not personal.

Austin Archer [03:25:18] It can feel personal. It can really feel like you're being targeted and like you specifically are being. And maybe sometimes they are deciding that for the next few weeks this person is going to be suppressed. I've definitely had weird things happen on TikTok. Like, I've had lots and lots and lots and lots of followers deleted. I'll go through periods where I'll be gaining about 500 to 1,000 new followers a day. And I can see that by just checking my following tab and seeing all everybody who came up in the last 24 hours. But I will be losing followers on my total account, on my total amount.

Austin Archer [03:25:54] Which means that TikTok is either several thousand people a day are actively unfollowing me or TikTok is deleting followers. And what I've actually had happen is lots of people have reached out on message and said, I was following you. And then I went and checked your account because I hadn't seen you in a while and I was unfollowed for from you and so like it's how

Carah Burrell [03:26:13] you know they care.

Austin Archer [03:26:13] Yeah, it's just again, the abusive stuff, the weird toxic stuff where you're like, what is that about that you're deleting my followers? Because it really is. People are trying to make a livelihood out of this. They're trying to make a career. So it really, it feels personal when an algorithm or a person or anyone deprives you of a potential opportunity that can help you make money and help you stay active. You know, it feels like you're like you're messing with my life, you're messing with my personal life here. I think the key is to always remember it's not personal and that your only job is to keep showing up, is to keep doing the thing and to keep, keep, keep trying to find new avenues and new ways of being creative and keep trying to challenge yourself.

Austin Archer [03:26:56] And if you look at it more of that, of just like this is for me, this is just for personal growth. I'm trying to become a more well rounded artist. I'm trying to become a more interesting artist and sharpen my toolkit and develop my craft more.

Austin Archer [03:27:15] So it's not just feeding the, the feeding the algorithm, any old thing, but really just trying to constantly find new angles at it but not worrying about what the results are. Really being in the actions business and not the results business, like I'm just here to, to make videos and write songs and whether or not a million people see it is not up to me. If 10,000 people see it, that's dope.

Austin Archer [03:27:39] It's also really quickly, people size becomes relative. Really quickly, people who have never had a following at all on the Internet suddenly have 50,000 followers and all they can think about is how come I don't have a hundred thousand. And you're like, you got a stadium full of people watching your stuff that you never had before. Before this, it was 500 of your closest friends and family that you've met. You know, like, so keeping it right sized and not comparing yourself to what other people are doing is really important.

Austin Archer [03:28:11] I've definitely struggled a lot with looking at other people who are in my similar area and being like, how come that person's growing faster than me? Or how come that person has the same amount of followers than as me, but they have way more like likes, Are their videos better than mine or that, you know, like, it's just, you can't do that. You have to mind your own business and show up for your job every day.

Carah Burrell [03:28:32] Yeah, right on three a day, huh? So in totally unrelated news, John, I'm really booked the rest of January. I'm really going to be. Don't schedule me for anything. I just have other projects.

John Dehlin [03:28:42] Yes, yes.

Carah Burrell [03:28:43] Just kidding.

Austin Archer [03:28:44] You got TikToks to post.

Carah Burrell [03:28:45] I haven't posted a tick tock in two weeks because I got banned. I got permanently banned and then I got unbanned.

Austin Archer [03:28:50] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:28:50] Thank you, TikTok. TikTok. God allowed me to come back on, but I've kind of lost some. You're. You're reinvigorating me right now, though.

John Dehlin [03:28:57] Uh. Oh, gosh dang it.

Carah Burrell [03:28:59] John's like, but we're doing so good. No, I have, I have many, many talents. I can multitask. But it's so much fun to be able to reach that many people.

Austin Archer [03:29:06] It really is. Well, and on top of that too, the other thing is, like I say, I haven't taken days off. I have. There are times when, because I try to. When I'm. When I'm in a good space, be on it every day. And I've had to learn this year that creator burnout is a real thing. Fatigue is a real thing. There are just times where you're just like, I just can't right now. I got nothing and I don't want. I don't want to do it. And I think it's important to listen to that and to. Again, if you're not comparing yourself to other people and if you're not going, I can't slow down because that person's not slowing down.

Austin Archer [03:29:39] So I got to keep pace with them. If you're okay with being on your own journey and being like, it's okay for me to take this weekend off and go away for a weekend and maybe even like just not even post anything anywhere and just take some time to, to just sort of. I think that's also important to.

Carah Burrell [03:29:56] Yeah, yeah. I actually, at my computer, like in my office, in my bedroom, right across from like where I write all my TikToks, where I film all, everything. I have a post it note that I stare at every day. And it's kind of corny, but it's this quote from Lauryn Hill that I, from an interview that I watched when I was. Was like 14 years old. And she talked about how frustrating it is as an artist that they want you to constantly be writing music, singing, producing your album, going on tour. And she's like, I don't have time to create because you're always making me work.

Carah Burrell [03:30:23] She's like, the work that you want to sell. I don't have time to think about and then I don't have anything to produce. And I remember thinking that as a 14 year old who wanted to be in the entertainment industry in some way, shape or form and a lot of people relate to that. You know, it's like you need a lot of time to breathe, breathe and to look at things and have space away from the craft, to step away from it. And there are literally tiktoks that I've written that I had in a draft for a year because I wanted some space to look at it.

Carah Burrell [03:30:46] I wanted some space to think about it. Oh yeah. And when you're, when you're feeding that algorithm just to keep up with it, it's just so not healthy. It's not healthy as a creative to not be able to have some space from it and just be a person who's thinking, contemplating. If you're, if your end goal is just to create, then the thing you're creating is actually not that beneficial. It's just, you know.

Austin Archer [03:31:04] Yeah, I, I'll also say though too because a lot of people ask the question like, well, where do you come up with enough ideas? Where do you come up with new ideas all the time? And it's like, well, I've. My personal experience is that being in my creative zone and, and, and like creating as a job and making it kind of my focus of the day is like, that's what I do. And also like finding a way to make it an act of service too. Like, hopefully this can help someone, even if it's just to help them smile on a day where they're not feeling so hot.

Austin Archer [03:31:37] Keeping that as the focus and trying to be in there with a, with a good intention. Creativity kind of begets creativity. It kind of like it, it sort of fulfills itself. It's sort of like as I keep moving in this direction and, and, and seeking to be in this state of flow, in this state of Zen, new ideas keep coming up and it's a. Well that so far in my life hasn't run dry for me. There are periods where it'll be really clear that it's like nothing's coming up right now. And that's okay.

Carah Burrell [03:32:10] Yeah.

Austin Archer [03:32:10] And that's the weird thing about being in a creative job is that it can't be put on a clock, it can't be put on a 9 to 5, like 9 to 5 turn on my creative brain. You sort of have to just be open to it when it's coming and when it Is there try to be in it? And, and yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:24] From the little. I've experienced it and hearing Carah and others talk about it, the problem often, once you get going, isn't how do I come up with enough ideas, it's how do I stop thinking every moment about how do I, you know, here's a new idea, here's a new idea. And you're, it's 11 o' clock at night and your spouse is like, pay me some attention. And you're like, sorry, I'm. I'm thinking about. Or making a TikTok. You know what I mean?

Austin Archer [03:32:47] Yeah. It's almost how do I pick which idea to do next? Because I've got this to do list of ideas now.

John Dehlin [03:32:52] Gazillion ideas.

Austin Archer [03:32:53] Yeah. And so, yeah, yeah. It's like once you're in that state and you're feeding that and you're, you're working on that craft, it, you just, it, it just generates and regenerates. So it's almost like, how do I pace myself out and choose my.

Carah Burrell [03:33:06] Yeah, that's perfect word. Pace yourself.

Content Themes, Political Commentary, and Criticism

John Dehlin [03:33:09] Let me, let me ask you a couple other kind of side topics. One is, so if you had to summarize. Well, I'll start. If I had to kind of summarize the videos yours that I've seen. Let's just say there's some content categories. So you, you, you talk some about LGBTQ issues, you talk about, I, I would say progressive politics. You talk, you, you've talked a lot about the vaccine, you've talked some about the vaccine and, and, and that sort of thing. You, you make observations about pop culture, kind of some social commentary. What are some of the other major buckets that you cover in your videos? And then I want to drill into politics right really quick.

Austin Archer [03:33:50] I think there's like four or five main categories of what my videos are. There's a skit, and the skit can be just silly, where I'm making fun of a thing in a movie that I really like. Like, I did a whole skit about the Terminator movies and it's like them, like Skynet planning what the Terminator is going to look like. And there's one guy that's like, he got it. Doesn't he kind of look like, like, he looks like a guy that would kill you? Like, what if we made it like a little old lady that no one would suspect? And then like, no, he's going to look like this because he looks dope and like, okay, but you said that he, he speaks.

Austin Archer [03:34:23] We're sending him back to America in the 1980s, right? They're like, yeah, he's like. And you said he speaks Austrian. And the guy's like, no, I said he speaks English in an Austrian accent. He's like, why? Why would he speak like that? And he's like, because that's, that's cool. Okay. And like, so I do stuff like that where it's. It's totally non political and not offensive and anyone can enjoy it. And so I do skits where I'm both characters and sometimes the skit is.

John Dehlin [03:34:47] Is.

Austin Archer [03:34:48] Is politically charged and it's an argument taking place that I see a lot. And it's. I'm representing it in a way where I'm trying to say, like, usually it's

John Dehlin [03:34:55] a liberal versus a conservative, right?

Austin Archer [03:34:56] Yeah. I've got a character called Backwards Hat Guy that is. That is the conservative guy. And he shows up in a lot of my guy. Yeah, he's got a backwards hat and he, he's very smug and he's like talking to a brick wall. Like, nothing that you say to him gets in or gets absorbed. And he repeats himself a lot. Lot. Instead of like absorbing and responding, which is my experience, it's just like, I feel a lot of times like I'll say something to someone and then they'll say the exact same thing they just said back to me. And I'll be like, no, I just responded to that.

Austin Archer [03:35:27] I don't want to respond to it again. I just like, move on, respond to what I said. But so there's that character. So the first one. Yes, skits, which is like the me and me formula. There's music videos which I think people really. I think those are some of the most popular. And again, those can be in a political clapback where I'm taking something someone said and then I write a whole song responding to them about it. Or they can just be silly. Like, I've got a song. I got mustache respect, parts one and two. I've got turtleneck and blazer. I've got.

John Dehlin [03:35:57] Just talking about people who wear turtlenecks.

Austin Archer [03:35:59] Yeah. I've got a song called Tiktoks for Pooping that's talking about how people are pooping while they're watching TikTok. They're sitting on the toilet and like, I'm like, I know where you are. You're sitting on the toilet pooping right now. I know. I know what you're doing. And you know, so that's not fair.

Carah Burrell [03:36:10] I do everything on Tick Tock.

John Dehlin [03:36:11] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:36:12] You can tell me coffee and be like, you're a genius. Middle of a Mormon Stories episode for the filming, watching. How would you know?

John Dehlin [03:36:19] You would never do that.

Austin Archer [03:36:20] So there's the sound, there's the songs. So skits songs. Then there's direct address where it. This is almost like an advertisement for my podcast where it's just me looking straight into the camera and talking about an idea that I've been thinking about. And it's either an idea of like a thing I've noticed in society. It's either a social commentary, it's either either a political commentary or like it's just. Or, or an analogy that someone gave me that I'm like, I like this analogy and I want to share it with, with you guys. And so it's. There's these direct address videos where I'm looking straight into the camera and just sort of monologuing.

Austin Archer [03:36:51] Yeah, monologuing and just talking about an idea. And then there are really, there's like TikTok videos where I'm just taking like a TikTok trend or a sound and I'm repurposing it for my brand of comedy or humor where I'm being like a genuine tick tocker and I'm like taking a popular thing that's happening on TikTok and doing my spin on it.

Austin Archer [03:37:16] And then there are these new kind of videos that I've been doing that I've been really enjoying that aren't getting as many views, but the people who see them are like, I really like this and I like it too. And it's, it's almost like mini cinema. And I do these really cinematic videos where there's like a very serious poetic narration. And I try to shoot something in a way that I think is really like interesting and beautiful and kind of melancholic. And like I have one where I'm just shaving my face and I'm doing this whole monologue and it's called My Daily Routine. And it's.

Austin Archer [03:37:51] There's. There's this monologue that I wrote about the daily thoughts that I have going through my day. But it's all just through this sequence of me shaving and trimming my mustache and cleaning my face in the mirror. And it's just this straight on shot of my face. And like I, I've been liking doing these videos, these really like artsy, yeah, artsy cinematic videos. And that's sort of the, the different areas where I'll. I'll make videos in right now. So.

John Dehlin [03:38:18] Yeah, so my I won't, I won't disclose who this is, but someone close to me who really is a fan and they, they, they don't really follow Mormon stories at all. But when they found out I was interviewing you, they got excited. No, no offense taken. This person writes, I think he genuinely feels like no conservatives are thoughtful. Would be interesting to ask him, but it might alienate a bunch of your audience. That's what my. So what would you say to someone who said your videos give the impression that you think, think conservatives are not thoughtful?

Austin Archer [03:38:51] Yeah, I get, I get the comment all the time in my comments that I straw man and that I'm, I'm, I'm making up scenarios so I can win an argument. I, you know, they'll go, nice made up argument that you had with yourself. And I'm like, well, and I've made

John Dehlin [03:39:03] a video about this is the backwards hat guy.

Austin Archer [03:39:05] Yeah. And I've had, I've made a video about this where I've said, I'm not making this up. I, when I make these videos, it's because I've had this exact conversation multiple times. Usually when I get to the point where I'm ready to make a video about something, it's because I've run into this exact situation with this exact person saying almost word for word this exact argument too many times. And so I made a video about this where the video starts with backwards hat guy saying, nice straw man. And then I say, I break the fourth wall and I look at the camera and I say, I genuinely wish I was straw manning when I do this character.

Austin Archer [03:39:41] I wish that people that I contend with on the right had better arguments for me and had better worded and more eloquent positions that I had to actually think about. But it really is this obnoxious. I know it's obnoxious for you to watch, but this is, I'm trying to express how me, how I, how I genuinely feel. I feel baffled at some of the conversations I have.

Austin Archer [03:40:04] This guy invited me to have a debate with him once on his channel, this conservative guy. And I said, sure, let's do it. And we spent like 20 minutes of the debate of him asking me the question, how many people dying qualifies as a pandemic? And me repeating the response, that's not what a pandemic is. A pandemic means global, that's the word pan. And an epidemic is localized. So a pandemic just means a global contagion has broken out. There isn't a number of deaths that qualify as a pandemic. And he would go, yeah, no, I know what you're meaning, but how many people dying is technically a pandemic?

Austin Archer [03:40:36] And I go, I don't think you're listening to what I'm saying. That's not what a pandemic is. And we did that for maybe 20 minutes. And I went, I don't think we can keep this going. I don't know how else to say it. Like, you don't fundamentally understand what a pandemic is. And I think it's framing a lot of your opinions about what's happening that you think people are, like, calling it a pandemic when it isn't really a pandemic, but, like, you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the definition of the word pandemic is. And you're on, you're incapable of hearing that I'm answering the question.

Austin Archer [03:41:05] And I run into this problem a lot. And so I wouldn't say that I think all conservative people are thoughtless. And I would say that, that when what I'm representing in those skits is my experience 95% of the time when I engage with, when I try to in good faith engage with people in my comments or in they direct message me or. And I try to. And I'll only do it if I see some window of like, maybe I can answer this person's argument in a way that might spark something for them.

Austin Archer [03:41:40] But the amount of times that I try to go into that space and am met with almost like they didn't even read what I just said, or they'll, they'll respond, they'll say something that I addressed in the video. And I'll be like, I addressed that in the. Did you watch the video?

Austin Archer [03:41:56] The other, that's the other thing that happens is I will make a video saying, you know, quote, unquote, conservative people do X. And that's frustrating for me. And then, then 200 conservative people will show up in my comments doing the thing that I said they do in the video. And I'll be like, how do you not know that you're doing the thing I said you do? And they'll even say, like, what a straw man? And then they'll do the thing. And I'll be like, you can't say I'm straw manning and then do the thing. So it is just the result of trying to have good faith conversations with people who disagree with me and being met with a frustrating result over and over and over again again.

Austin Archer [03:42:33] And I, I don't Want my, my takeaway from that experience to be all of these people are this way. It's just that I, I rarely encounter people who display a, a, a degree of thoughtfulness, where they go, you know what, that's a good point. It's a good argument, you know, and

John Dehlin [03:42:50] I, I, I remember. Was it called the Social Experiment? What was the Netflix or Amazon documentary A year.

Austin Archer [03:42:59] I know, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:01] That was about the echo chambers that social media sometimes funneled people into.

Austin Archer [03:43:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:06] I mean, there's always a chance that just the way social media works, they're filtering a certain type of conservative into your channels and not filtering another group of, of conservatives. I mean, I'm just trying to say

Austin Archer [03:43:18] there's, well, so, I mean, so I post, usually when I post a video about one of these things, like I said, it's because, it's because it's an argument that I see over and over and over again again. So I kind of want to go, okay, this seems to be a very prevalent argument that a lot of people go to. Let's see if we can unpack it and dissect it. I just posted a video today on Instagram that I posted a couple days ago to TikTok. But it's this thing that, that happens a lot in my videos is I'll make a point about vaccines or critical race theory or police reform or anything like that.

Austin Archer [03:43:50] And conservative people will show up in my comments and go, this guy looks like a pedophile. And I'm like, what is, what does that have to do with anything that I just said? And it's very common and they do it a lot.

Austin Archer [03:44:02] Yeah. And it's this, but it's this really specific, like, why would we listen to a guy who looks like a pedophile? And I'm like, what a strange thing that, because is there anything I said in the video that made you think that?

John Dehlin [03:44:13] The mustache, bro.

Austin Archer [03:44:14] And it is the mustache. And I think that it's such a low hanging fruit insult to go to. But I, so I made a video kind of unpacking it and I said, said I think about this a lot, that it's such an easy place for them to go. Because in my mind I would never accuse a stranger, I don't know, with no information on them of being a pedophile, with no reason, with no, like, you know, like, like saying like, you know, Donald Trump might be a pedophile because he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein and we have logbooks saying that he visited Jeffrey Epstein's pedophile island.

Austin Archer [03:44:44] So maybe there's some evidence there and a reason why you could could say, but with no provocation and no evidence to back up the claim. I would never just call someone something that terrible as, as a means of like debunking their argument. Like, I have no response to your argument, but I am just going to insinuate that you're something awful just because I think it's sort of a sociopathic tendency. And I'm like, it's so like wild to me how prevalent it is and how easily people go to that place. And so I, I, I hypothesized in this video. I said I would never do this, I would never accuse someone of this.

Austin Archer [03:45:23] But it seems like it could be projection because a lot of times what we see is people on the right, conservative lawmakers being very anti gay or anti, like gay people are going to attack us in bathrooms. And then that conservative lawmaker gets found out to be, you know, a closeted person who's visiting bath houses and stuff. And you're like, oh, interesting. And so I didn't say I'm accusing all of these people of being pedophiles. I said, the only thing I can think of is maybe it's projection, that there's a thing inside of them that they despise and they throw it at whoever makes them feel uncomfortable.

Austin Archer [03:45:58] And someone commented on the video and said, aren't you just doing the same thing and accusing all of them now? And I said, no. I was very careful in the language to say I'm not, I wouldn't do that. But I'm just trying to, I'm trying to think, what kind of person does that? Why is that where your brain goes? Why is it such an easy place for you to jump to? And why don't you try to think of an argument instead of just accusing me of being something terrible? You know, So I don't know, you know, it. I think that I'm definitely poking the bear in my content a lot.

Austin Archer [03:46:30] And I definitely am aware of that. And I don't, I don't feel bad that I'm getting the comments that I'm getting. I understand that I'm putting myself in the position to be receiving those kinds of comments and that kind of negativity. And so, but yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's, it's, but it's been interesting to sort of try to dissect

John Dehlin [03:46:50] psychologically a couple, couple more questions for me. One is so even thoughtful progressives that say, like Sam Harris are now spending a considerable amount of time. Time speaking out against the perils of wokeism. Right. Like the. Let's just say when progressives and liberals take things way too far. Have you spent any time featuring kind of anti wokist or kind of like spotlighting wokest, you know, absurdity?

Austin Archer [03:47:19] I will say I spent time in that philosophy before Tick Tock happened and before all this stuff happened. I. I spent time with as they call it, the interlace, the intellectual dark web. The, you know, like the. Sam Harris is the even. Like, you know, a lot of people think of Joe. Joe Rogan as like a centrist who just. He just wants to hear all positions and wants to be very even and he's not really taking a position on things.

Austin Archer [03:47:43] I've come to believe personally and this is just a. Like through personal study and trying to examine myself honesty honestly and get to deeper and deeper levels of what's true for me. I've come to believe that a lot of that stuff is. And I don't think it's the way that Sam Harris intends it. I really don't think that he's doing it in a nefarious way. I think it can be a backdoor to red pilling and radicalizing white men on the Internet. It starts with reasonable white men hearing that sure, the left has some reasonable ideas, but come on, this is too far. They're getting. They're getting out of control here.

Austin Archer [03:48:16] And once you sort of plant that idea that like yeah, they're pretty crazy. They. They're actually. It's pretty annoying when they try to say that something's bad and they're just so easily offended. And that I've found because this is a real problem in America, the radicalization and militarization of young white men on the Internet. And the reason why we have the prevalence of groups like the proud boys and stuff is it all funnels in that direction eventually I find is getting what white white men especially who feel like the bulk of wokeism is against them. They feel like the bulk of. Of woke culture is something that means that they can't speak their mind and they can't speak freely and it's losing power.

Austin Archer [03:49:00] Yeah. It disproportionately affects them. And so even being allowed to. Now, this isn't to say that you shouldn't criticize the left. Don't, don't do it. It's dangerous. It's to say that my, my finding has been that I think that's where it starts. The funnel that starts to lead a lot of people to a road that eventually thing after thing after thing that they consume an idea that becomes more familiar. Pretty soon you're all of a sudden in a place where you are like kind of strongly anti left and you are almost a step away from being radicalized to being fully embracing this idea that people are trying to tell me it's not okay to be white.

Austin Archer [03:49:38] And I'm gonna counteract that by saying white power. White power, exactly. And so I think it is a, a space where what I found stepping away from that and trying to own my privilege as a white creator and where my spaces are that I can speak and where I have to be careful isn't like I better mind my P's and Q's because people are going to get mad at me. It's about, at the end of the day, it's about respect and it's about listening and it's about, about genuinely trying to examine myself. A video that I have coming up that I'm excited about is I'm going to be offering to people as a suggestion for a New year's resolution for 2022 to try to decolonize your timeline.

Austin Archer [03:50:22] And what I mean by that is actively try to follow people who are sharing ideas and experiences that are foreign to you, don't I? What I don't mean by that is you don't need to invite vitriol and hate into your space. You don't need to invite people that are going to be detrimental to you. But I've over the last year and a half really consciously following a lot of, a lot more creators in the bipoc space and in the social justice space and people in the queer space and trying to educate myself on what is actually happening when people are asking for certain concessions with my language and with what I can approach healthily as a, as a white man.

Austin Archer [03:50:58] What I. What I can approach reasonably and understanding that it's not about taking away my freedom of speech or my freedom of thought, but it's more about trying to get me to understand fundamentally that I'm actually, I'm not speaking from a position of education or authority. And a lot of times I'm talking out my ass. And when it comes to the fear of cancel culture and woke culture and things like that, sincerely examining it, I've come to the conclusion that I think largely it's a myth. And I think it's a myth that is used to drum up anti left sentiment. Because at the end of the day people who get criticized for saying something bad which is usually what it is, is you write a tweet or say something that has language in it that's insensitive to a group or that displays a blind spot that you might have.

Austin Archer [03:51:47] But, like, we still like you. We just want to let you know that you. That maybe you should adjust this. And people, it gets blown up in the media as, oh, cancel. Culture's coming for them. They're trying to cancel. And usually what we find with most of these people is they don't get canceled. They still have their careers.

John Dehlin [03:52:01] They still have a bit of a myth. Cancer culture is a bit of a myth.

Austin Archer [03:52:04] It's a bit of a myth. And. And the people who actually get canceled are like Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and people who were like, oh, but they might have committed crimes and, like, they might have actually done something that we shouldn't have that person have power and authority anymore. It's dangerous to have that person. Yeah. And I think that that's what we're actually seeing is people like Kevin Hart, who made a joke on Twitter 10 years ago that people found in went, oh, Kevin Hart said this homophobic joke that maybe he shouldn't host the Oscars. And all that was being asked of Kevin Hart was to address that and say, you know what?

Austin Archer [03:52:41] I made a mistake and I'm sorry, and I'm going to try to move forward and not do that moving forward. And he, as a comedian made the choice to say, I'm not going to apologize for a joke that I made. And the Oscar said, okay, then you're not going to host the Oscars. Kevin Hart hasn't lost his job, hasn't lost his career. He's doing fine. He's making millions of dollars a year here. He's not canceled. And I think that we.

John Dehlin [03:53:01] Even Louis CK Is coming back.

Austin Archer [03:53:03] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's got an audience. He just released a new special. And like, he may not have a platform on Netflix. He may not have a TV show anymore. He may have networks that, you know.

John Dehlin [03:53:13] Yeah.

Austin Archer [03:53:13] Yet he may not have people. And. But I think in general, the. The seed of criticizing the. The kind of hysteria of woke culture, it. The fruit that it bears is like a road toward being vitriolically anti left, which I think is a big characterization of people on the right's philosophy is just like, these people are anti free speech, anti free thought. They're gonna destroy America because we won't have diversity of thought. That whole argument of no diversity of thought. I actually think it's funny because I think what you find if you actually embrace philosophy on the left is that it's. It's wildly diverse. All of the diversity in humanity exists on that side.

Austin Archer [03:53:56] And the political right tends to be much more monolithic. It tends to be much more homogenized racially and homogenized, religiously and homogenized ideologically. It's white Christian people for the most part. And so on the left, you've got Islam and Buddhists and atheists and agnostic and all of these different. And Christian and all of these different ideas. And so I, I think it's not that I don't want to be a creator who's equal opportunity criticizing. It's that what I found out when I was doing that, when I was trying to be quote, unquote, fair, is I was almost trying to defend myself too much as a white guy who felt like, I don't think it's fair that the world, that I was born into an age where the world is all mad at me.

Austin Archer [03:54:45] Everyone's mad at me because I'm white and because I'm. I'm straight and I'm cisgender. And people will say I should shut up. And I. This whole myth too, that white guys, like, I guess I just can't say anything. I guess I should just shut up. And I'm sitting here with a million followers on Tick Tock and I'm like, no, people are fine if I talk and if I share my, my, my opinions, people are fine if Joe Rogan has an opinion, you know, like he's got an audience, he's fine. You know, like, it's totally okay. It's just that if people think an idea that you have is harmful and potentially detrimental to a certain community, they're going to tell you and they're going to criticize you. And I think we need to be a little tougher and be able to take good criticism.

Carah Burrell [03:55:24] Right on. As you were talking. I basically just want to talk all day long about this. Yeah, yeah. There's so much to be said in that. Like, we can be really selective, too. Like, I think I was it the Dixie Chicks who came out as pedophiles and everyone canceled them? No, that was coming out against George Bush. You would have thought that they were pedophiles by the way that people treated them. So I think people are super selective about, like, you know, one side only cancels or this things. I was like, we're all tribal at the end of the day. Like, we all have different things that we care about. And we want to keep our, in group and other, other people, you know.

Austin Archer [03:55:55] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:55:56] So I definitely think, I definitely think that I'm, I'm kind of like a recovering, very conservative Mormon Christian who has moved slowly with more evidence and my eyes not having so many blinders on them to a lot of the things that you said that I'm like, I've come around on. I had a lot of the opinions that probably the people in your conservative comments would have had. I probably would have hated you two years ago. It hated me now. But like, but yeah, I came around. I think you're, I think you're really smart about the way you do it and you come across very, very intelligent.

Austin Archer [03:56:25] Well, and I, I just think that if you, if you want to examine societal structures today and ask the question sincerely, why do we still have such systemic inequality when it comes to racial breakdowns? And why do we still have marginalized communities like the trans community and the queer community? And why are we still struggling with representation and adequate representation? Why are we still struggling and having the same arguments over the same laws? Can trans people use the bathroom that they want to use? Can gay people get married? Why are we still having these debates? And you want to look at those structures and you see that it is because of holdovers from structures that were deliberately built with the progress of white, straight, cisgender Christian people in mind and that it's the still holdovers from that.

Austin Archer [03:57:12] You have to look internally and go, what am I operating with? How have I benefited in a way where I'm operating? What blind spots do I have? And I think that it just behooves especially white creators, white able bodied creators, white cisgender creators, white straight creators. It behooves all of us to definitely, as we're going into a space where we want to have a voice and we want to have a platform to be trying to be consciously aware of our blind spots. Is there a thing that I could be speaking on and I could be completely talking out my ass, Completely speaking out of turn? Where are the spaces where I should maybe know that's not past the, the mic. Yeah, pass the mic. You know. Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:57:52] One of my favorite, like simplest sayings that ever since I started moving like my religious ideas is just the phrase like, get curious.

Austin Archer [03:58:00] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:58:00] Like whether it's somebody who, you see an idea somebody's obviously really passionate about. Doesn't matter what the political spectrum is. Get curious on how do you think they arrived at that idea? What do you think their sources are? Why do you think somebody would believe that so passionately, you know? And so when it comes to things like systemic inequality, that sounds. That sounds like a big deal. For a long time, I was denying it, but I was like, that sounds like I should get curious on that and actually, like, not just take the things that my parents have told me and actually learn and investigate.

Austin Archer [03:58:27] So the dangers of not being curious about that is people come up with ideas that, like, they go, like, maybe there's just something different about that culture. Maybe that culture is just not as good at being rich as we are. You know, like, that's literally what happens when people aren't curious and they don't want to look into it.

John Dehlin [03:58:42] It.

Austin Archer [03:58:43] They kind of go to easy answers and they're like, I mean, look, we gave them all equality of rights in the 60s. It's been like 60 years. And there's like, maybe they just culturally aren't good at stuff. And it's like. Or if you actually are curious about. Because, come on, let be real, like, they're human beings. Like, and if you. It makes a lot of sense when you just examine it, that there is wealth still held over from slave plantations. Like, that wealth still exists. Those families are still wealthy.

Carah Burrell [03:59:09] And you know what? My. I had this. I had. I would hear people say that two years ago, and my brain went to this. There's this Ben Shapiro quote where he would say, what is stopping a black man from staying with his girlfriend that he just got pregnant? Does somebody have a gun to his head? And I was not able to be in a position where I could actually genuinely look at the systemic problems of the country. I was not ready to go there. So I'd just be like, yeah, what's his problem? Just like, yep, get married. Just like, don't have a kid. Just like, not actually taking consideration. The. There's actually a really great. If people don't, like, yeah. The context. There's actually a great little clip between, like, Joe Rogan and Ben Shapir talking about this on YouTube.

Austin Archer [03:59:44] There's generational trauma of, like, Joe Rogan

Carah Burrell [03:59:46] being like, you don't understand that some people are conditioned in different environments. And like, like, it took me honestly becoming an atheist to understand evolution, to understand systems. Like, I had too much of a. Everything was painted.

John Dehlin [03:59:59] Too much sin or righteousness. Right?

Carah Burrell [04:00:02] What's that mean?

John Dehlin [04:00:03] I. I mean, if you're raised in, like, let's just say a Mormon or orthodox Christian perspective, you view the world as either righteousness or wickedness, Right? You're either obeying God's commandments or you're sinning.

Austin Archer [04:00:14] Right.

John Dehlin [04:00:14] Especially you're not thinking about cultural context and historical influences and multi generational trauma.

Carah Burrell [04:00:22] If you are Mormon who believes that everyone would be happier if they joined the Mormon Church, like if you believe that the church is true and, and everyone would be better off for joining it, like that's a, that's a hard thing to grapple with that you don't want to understand that no systemic problems will always still exist. Even if everyone suddenly converted the Mormon Church and was, you know, acted and paying their tithing. Like there's some things that blessings from the church wouldn't do. When I left the church, I had to grapple with, okay, the atonement isn't going to work for this, this societal issue, like this God magic that I thought, thought would actually cure people. That's not going to get to the root of what society needs. I had to actually wake up to that reality. And it took growth and maturity and getting curious.

Austin Archer [04:01:01] Yeah, curious. Being curious is actually what I'm trying to do. When I engage with people on the Internet who disagree with me and I tell them all the time, I really will be like, I actually want you to tell me something that I don't know. I really want you to like to, I want you to actually try to unpack what I just said. Don't just repeat back the same thing to me. I actually want to hear your response. Response. I, I'm hoping that you teach me something about the way that you think and why you think that way. And sometimes I, I am given a perspective that I go, okay, I can see that.

Austin Archer [04:01:33] I can. Or I can at least see how you arrived at that. I can at least follow that. But I, you know, and obviously 90 of Internet comment sections is just garbage anyway, so it, it's hard to find those genuine moments. But I've always been, even before I had a platform form, even when I was just discussing things with people on Facebook, just with friends and family. It's like, I really want you to, to give me the best shot at your argument here. I want you to.

Carah Burrell [04:02:02] Or tell me what you are for.

Austin Archer [04:02:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:02:04] Like if you were the President of the world, if you're the President of the United States, like, what are you for? Not just what you're against.

Austin Archer [04:02:09] And I explain this.

Carah Burrell [04:02:10] I was, I was too much of a reactionary to know. And yeah, that's. So that leads me into my. For wrapping up. I would just like to pick your brain. Unlike if somebody were to come and find this interview.

John Dehlin [04:02:20] Wait, wait, wait. Can I just share a comment really quick? Pin that car, because I really want to hear it. 2. 2 comments. I just want to. I want to highlight. Maven writes, I've also done a 180 on almost every political topic from how I was raised. For Maven, she says, it comes down to data and empathy. I think that's a really.

Carah Burrell [04:02:39] I like to say evidence and empathy.

Austin Archer [04:02:41] Let me ask.

John Dehlin [04:02:42] Yeah. And then I have to. I have to mention this comment as well. Heidi writes, I'm loving this interview. Also, Austin has a porn star stash. If anything. Is that embarrassing?

Austin Archer [04:02:52] No, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine.

John Dehlin [04:02:55] Okay. Sorry, Carah.

Carah Burrell [04:02:56] I don't watch enough porn to know. I'm just like, what does that mean anyway?

Austin Archer [04:03:00] It's a. It's a holdover from the 70s and 80s. You know, you don't see a lot of stashes these days. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I think it's funny.

Carah Burrell [04:03:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:03:07] Okay. You're saying, kara, I've got one more thing too, but you go first in the room.

Carah Burrell [04:03:10] Okay. So somebody comes across this interview, and maybe they, you know, there's somebody who argues with you on your TikTok or something, and they want to know, like, what do you stand for? And we kind of got into that. I remember I really liked your discussion earlier about, you know, love for everyone, and you're talking with this evangelical Christian of, like, what does that mean? Like, you know, it can mean different things to different people. What does love everyone mean? What is. What is take out? Like, any kind of. Of political labels or stances, like, what are you for? What kind of world do you envision? What do you hope. What do you hope to inspire from this podcast? What do you message would you want

Austin Archer [04:03:45] to get put forward, you know, overall, with all three parts? I would say this is just my story. It's just my experience. And it. It's not me being prescriptive about anyone else's life. I'm just. I'm relaying what my anecdotal experience has been and. And how the experiences I have had have led me to certain conclusions.

Austin Archer [04:04:06] It is not me saying, this is the way I believe that people should live their lives. I think a lot of times people get really. They really think that you're trying to tell them something about what they need to do and what's best for them. And I'm just relaying the way that I've come to, the conclusions that I've come to. As far as my philosophy is concerned, I say this all the time to people, and I don't think they believe me, but I really do mean it. And I try to, to make sure that I'm living it honestly, that I don't actually think of the positions I hold and the positions I try to articulate and the arguments I try to articulate as being political in the sense that I don't view them as me trying to score points for any party.

Austin Archer [04:04:48] I don't really particularly care about scoring points for the Democratic Party. And I think that that's a hard thing for a lot of people on the right to grasp because they, they don't believe me when I'm like, I really don't care who's in power. I, I want to. The person in power, whoever's in power, to be aligned with my values. And I know that that sounds like, isn't that the same thing? But I genuinely think it's not. I'm not, I don't. I. If, if Republicans had the values that I have, I would vote for them. It. And Democrats disappoint me in all kinds of ways with the way that they are kind of spineless and won't just get things done that they want to get done because they're trying to play fair, while Republicans don't care at all about playing fair.

Austin Archer [04:05:32] Like, why are you caring about playing fair? They don't care. But, but I, I don't think of it as positions that I have because I'm trying to, like, beat the other team or. Yeah, it's. I don't think of it like that. It's really like, this is what I think is right and compassionate and humane and whoever's going to help achieve this is who I'm going to try to support. Whoever's going to help push us, push the needle a little bit more in that direction is who I'm. Because we are given binary choices in our election system here, whether people like to admit it or not.

Austin Archer [04:06:04] Everyone goes, you don't have to vote. You can vote third party or vote your conscience. And I'm like, can you, though? Like, it's like, you can, but we are given two choices. We are given two options. And you can say what you want about that. That's a whole other can of worms. But I don't actually think about them as political positions. I think, like, like when a school shooting happens and, and a person like me on the Internet says, why can't we just do some. Why can't the. The solution is screaming in our face, why can't we just do something about it.

Austin Archer [04:06:35] And people say, why do you have to politicize these deaths? I'm like, I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to score points for the Democrats here. I'm not trying to get some legislation passed and capitalize on these deaths. I don't care about that. I'm saying I'm tired of this happening. I'm tired of watching this story over and over and over again. And I've watched other developed countries come up with common sense gun laws that seem to have borne the results that I would like to have. And I don't really care who does it. I don't really care which politician puts the legislation forward. I'm just saying, as a human, I would like to stop seeing this happening in such an alarming frequency.

John Dehlin [04:07:14] Mass shootings.

Austin Archer [04:07:15] Yeah. And it's not. To me, it's like, it's not about politics. It's just. And I think that people don't believe me when I say that. I think they're really like, now you want to pass a law that's a. That's a gun reform law, but it has a bunch of secret stuff hidden into it.

Austin Archer [04:07:30] Yeah. You know, and I'm like, I. You know, but it is a. I think it's a matter of, like, deep mistrust. And. And. And I think that there's a lot of people in my camp, in my tribal camp, who feel the same way that I do, that they're like, I don't really so much care about winning for the camp as I do. Just about, like, I just. I want to. I want the camp that I care about to be all of humanity, because I really believe that we sink or swim together. And I think that we can't get through pandemics if we're not united, and we can't get through climate change if we're not united.

Austin Archer [04:08:02] And we, you know, and so my. My goal is to try to just spread evidence and empathy and compassion and try to be delivering an argument from a lens that is saying, I arrived at this place because I'm trying to think of what is the best possible good for all people, not just for my people. And it's hard for people who think very tribally to accept that someone else might not be thinking that way.

John Dehlin [04:08:28] Yeah. So I agree that one of the biggest ills we're facing right now is the politic. Politicization.

Austin Archer [04:08:35] What's the word?

John Dehlin [04:08:36] Yeah, politicizing. Yeah, politicizing of things that have no business being politicized. So, like, Vaccines.

Austin Archer [04:08:43] Right.

John Dehlin [04:08:43] I have no business. Physical health, you know, gender identity.

Austin Archer [04:08:47] Right.

John Dehlin [04:08:49] You know, gun safety, student safety of students, like even medical procedures. There's got to be a way to stop politicizing the most important issues that are facing us such that we can make decisions based on, on well being or, or you know, evidence based decisions. Because to politicize gender identity where you either have to be for gen, you know, healthy gender expression or it's threatening and you're against it because it's been lumped in with a bunch of other positions in this, in this two party system, well, it's really ripping us apart.

Austin Archer [04:09:23] I know it sounds like I'm harping on the right and like I'm being really hard and I know you have a lot of listeners that are conservative politically and I don't want to say, I don't want to sound like I'm just trying to vilify one side over the other. But what I see, what I see, my experience of what I'm observing is that people who are on the left, whatever that means, these people who are, let's say people who are pro vaccine to them. It isn't a political thing. It really isn't. It's only made political by there being an opposition voice saying, well we all think that you're all wrong about this.

Austin Archer [04:10:02] And then it's like, okay, well now it's political. Now it's a binary thing where mostly people on the left are saying get vaccinated and mostly people on the right are saying don't get vaccinated. But I'm not saying get vaccinated because I'm a leftist, because, because I want to fight with the righties. I, but I, it feels to me like people on the right are sometimes not getting vaccinated. It only because people on the left are saying to get vaccinated. And I'm like, don't not do it just because people you disagree with are saying to do it. And you can't stand to do something that people you disagree with are doing it.

Austin Archer [04:10:38] It honestly feels like that. So the politicization of something that shouldn't be political, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not do, I'm not saying this because I'm trying to win politically. I'm saying it because I believe genuinely that it's the fastest, most effective way for us to, to get out of this pandemic.

John Dehlin [04:10:53] And I have to do a shout out for your video on sort of like the getting the answers to the test analogy as it Relates to the vaccine is really profound. Like, I'm going to add that to the show. Notes. Check out Austin's video on an analogy he makes to, I gotta say, deniers. That's a really important. I think that's an important video.

Austin Archer [04:11:13] It's an analogy that was given to me by a Patreon patron who. I don't know their screen name on social media and like, but they, they offered it to me and I said, do you mind if I use this? And so I, I do want to. Like, it was given to me by a friend, so.

John Dehlin [04:11:25] And you extend it in the video and you extended it, but it's really effective.

Carah Burrell [04:11:29] Yeah. And let's end on. On that note because I just want to make sure that we conservative people, we love you too. And just make sure that, you know, that there are plenty of things that no matter where we align on political ways here in this, the three of them, us, that there are things we can all come together that are frustrating to all of us, like, for the way that this pandemic has been a colossal, like. Yeah, yeah. Mishandling of power. Like, the conservative that's still down here in me says that was really frustrating the way that Fauci lied to everyone and said, like, don't wear masks and stuff.

Carah Burrell [04:12:01] And so it makes you really suspicious that, like, went to the core of, like, I have suspicion of you government. You know, sure, there's things that people on both sides of, wherever you land politically, sure, both can come together and be like, like, I'm suspicious of Big Pharma. I'm suspicious. I don't want this thing. But can we not just take labels off of who said what, of what different party and come together of like, what does the evidence say that's been beating me over the head that I'm going to have to give into? Or is it just a reactionary thing like actually analyzing or a tribal thing or tribal things? Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:12:30] Because. Because I think Jonathan Haidt does a really good job of. In the book called the Righteous Mind, he does a really good job of teaching us that it's not. Not that that, you know, conservatives want to kill, you know, want to. Want to take whatever it is, want mass gun shootings and they want everyone to die from COVID And it's only the liberals and progressives that want people to be healthy and happy and safe. It's. It's that we. We put different weight on different values. So some people value, you know, autonomy or freedom or some people value security or authority or stability. And it's often these types of values that we all share, we just weight them in different ways or freedom of expression or whatever it is.

John Dehlin [04:13:14] Yeah, it's the weighting of the values that often determines which religion or political party or non political party or non religion that we're a part of. But, but in the end, we have to realize we all kind of want the same thing. We just are having different approaches to try.

Austin Archer [04:13:29] And that's a really good way to put, put it. That's a lot better than probably. It's where what I, where I came

John Dehlin [04:13:34] at it from the books the Righteous Mind by Jonathan Height. And we'll add that in the show notes as well. But exactly to your point, Carah, this isn't about, this podcast is not about liberals and Democrats good and conservatives and Republicans bad. And I don't think your, your Tik Tok channel is either. Let me, let me end with this one last question.

Reflections on Social Media, Truth, and Influence

John Dehlin [04:13:54] Some people say, you know, some people would listen to this, this four or five hours today or seven hours if we count yesterday, and kind of say, like, wait a minute, you're saying social media is kind of a good thing. Social media is the answer. But back to that social dilemma documentary. What about social media is the problem? It's, it's bifurcating our attention. It's shortening our attention spans. It's depersonalizing our lives. It's isolating people. It's causing depression, it's causing anxiety. It's leading to this polarization, to this siloing of echo chambers. It's like every. And it's taking us out of nature and out of the natural world and out of more social groups, and it's secularizing everything and it's leading to depression, anxiety, and suicide. Like, what about people that say, man, Austin, you're embracing the path that's leading us to destruction.

Austin Archer [04:14:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:14:48] And you really, you know, championing TikTok or Instagram or whatever. Whatever. You're championing the poison that's killing us all. What do you say to that?

Austin Archer [04:14:57] Yes, to all of that. And I think that you're right about, like, people waiting different concerns in different ways and different values in different ways. Because I see all that and I go, yeah, you're right. You know, you're right about the ways that potentially it can be used to affect mental health and, and feel like I'm inferior because I'm not having the experience of this person that I'm seeing on Instagram. All of that. Yes.

John Dehlin [04:15:20] Fake lives and photos, airbrushing and.

Austin Archer [04:15:22] Yeah. And and being just having, having every company in the world have all your data, they just know everything about you. They just know what you want, they know what you like, they know what you like to see. And you know all that stuff. Yes, all of those concerns are valid 100%. I've always been, I've always been a cheerleader for the Internet and for social media in that, that it is still, even in 2022 a relatively very, very young technology and very, very young tool. And we are still. And it's, I mean it's, it is one of the most immensely powerful technological leaps and tools that's ever been constructed in the history of the civilization and the history of the species. I don't think it can even come close to being argued. I think the ability for people worldwide to instantly communicate with each other across

John Dehlin [04:16:20] instantly get answers to questions that are really important.

Austin Archer [04:16:23] It can't even be instantly find community. It can't be overestimated. What a massive shift in, in psychology the Internet presents to the species. It's only going to be natural that it's going to come with a lot of psychological issues and psychological downfalls and things that we go, wow, this is a whole new problem that we never had before. This is a whole new issue. It's only natural that that's going to happen.

John Dehlin [04:16:51] That happens like cars before airbags and seat belts, people were just flying through windshields.

Austin Archer [04:16:56] Right. We travel faster, but we also die in horrific ways that we didn't used to die in. And any technological evolution comes with a growing pains buffering zone. What I choose to put my energy into that gives me a lot of hope is things like people in creative fields, it just man act. Being an actor, being a creator, being a storyteller professionally has only really been like a viable career that people can pursue and try to make good money at for like 60 years. Ish. Like even in the early age of, of Hollywood, there were studio actors that were signed to contracts with studios and each studio had like you know, maybe 100 actors on contract.

Austin Archer [04:17:42] And all the rest of the actors, all the rest of the people who were trying to be in show business were waiting outside the studio in lines waiting to see if there was extra work to be handed out and stuff. And what new media presents creatives and presents artists is the opportunity to make your own path and make your own little little world and your own little audience that is separate from needing permission from studio people, studio execs or art dealers or you know, you can, artists who are painters can find their own audience on the Internet.

John Dehlin [04:18:12] Democratizing, right?

Austin Archer [04:18:13] It's. Yeah, it's very democratizing. And it also, for the longest time in these fields, there have been this imbalance of. There's the few people who have really made it who are making so much money at the top, and there's everybody else who's really struggling in this field. And there's not a big middle. Middle class. So I talk a lot about this creation of the middle class for artists and a thriving middle class where people can have an audience of a few hundred thousand people nationwide or worldwide and do well and, and have a good living and not be filthy rich, not be making millions of dollars and having several homes, but do well and thrive and doing what they love.

Austin Archer [04:18:51] And I think that the Internet makes that possible. I think that in many ways the fear that the Internet is making us less intelligent, that we're like, we're getting. People always talk about this. We're getting stupid or we're forgetting how to write, we're forgetting how to read properly. Like we're losing our critical thinking skills. I think, yes and no. I think the way that we write and the way that we communicate is evolving and changing as a result of these new tools. And I think that in many ways people have never been more intelligent or more informed. And what we're seeing as a result of being more intelligent is we are more aware of where the cracks are in our collective intellect and our collective reasoning skills and critical thinking.

Austin Archer [04:19:30] We used to just all be sort of going about life with simple tasks that we had to do. I just, I got to figure out a way to stay with a roof over my head and with shelter for my family and, and food and, and if I can do that and keep everybody reasonably healthy, I think I can be okay and maybe like have. Meet some good people and have some good experiences along the way.

Austin Archer [04:19:50] The influx of information, the influx of just having access to, to more information than, than common people have ever had in the history of humanity and just being able to look up a person's tax records and see how much money they made and where they donated their money to. Being like, knowing what people in power are doing. More people in power used to be able to pull the wool over a populace's eyes a lot easier. They have to get a lot more clever in an information era. They have to be a lot more sneaky about how they trick the populace. And, and because we are, it's so hard.

Austin Archer [04:20:27] It's so hard to, to contain things these days. People have access to Almost too much information. But I think again, it's a new technology. It is, it is one of the biggest technological revolutions in the history of the species, if not the singular biggest technological revolution in the history of the species. It's gonna take us some time to get the hang of it.

Austin Archer [04:20:53] Who knows if we have that time based on whether or not the climate holds up and whether or not the planet allows us that time. I think that with all of the things that people are afraid of, with social media and all the things that people harp on and all the ways that it's dangerous, there are just as many things to look at. The, the, the way that social media has made our world more egalitarian, has boosted representation. There are people who would never get let in the door at a, at a major studio who can make their own channel on YouTube and have an audience and say, doesn't matter that.

Austin Archer [04:21:25] It doesn't matter that I'm disabled and I have a hard time leaving my house. I've got a. I've got people that I connect with on the Internet. I've got friends, I've got, you know, the. There are people who were deprived of human contact and human experience because they were bedridden or home ridden or just because they had a hard time in public. They were neurodivergent and they had a hard time socializing in public spaces. They can now find community and friends. There are all kinds of things on the Internet that I think can be looked at and said, this is not a bad thing. This is a, this is a, like a really wonderful thing.

John Dehlin [04:21:58] It's certainly dismanting toxic unhealthy religion.

Austin Archer [04:22:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:22:02] I mean, right?

Austin Archer [04:22:03] Oh yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:22:04] You know what it just made me think of is, is like the QAnon documentary that HBO did. Do you ever watch that? It's like an eight series.

Austin Archer [04:22:11] Oh yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:22:11] That started on the website and that it was like this man that was disabled that started it, that started the website. Hn. Yeah. And then event like it's somebody who, like you're saying somebody who normally would have a really hard time like getting space in any kind of like creative space. He's able to create something that's has this huge magnitude. But then, then it's used for conspiracy theory that like.

Austin Archer [04:22:35] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:22:36] Hurts people. It's like, that's like the perfect microcosm of what sounds like what you're saying is like there's a big, a big world out there for people to do influence. That never got a share before, but it's. Sometimes it's for good. And sometimes it's.

Austin Archer [04:22:47] Yeah, look, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, people always say the Internet's not real world, real life. It's fake. It's fake life. It's people pretending to be fake. It is that, but. But it also isn't what the Internet actually is. It is, it is like the human side psyche, it is like the collective spatial psyche. So it really is all of humanity and all that that comes with. So it's all of the good and it's all of the bad and it's everything in between. It is our collective intelligence up to this point in physical or metaphysical form because it's not a physical place.

Austin Archer [04:23:19] It's like, it's almost hard to even grasp what it is. So when you try to boil it down to it's just this evil thing, it's just this bad thing, it's just this place where people come up with conspiracy theories, series, where people get bullied. It's like it is that and it's also not. It's also everything else. It's also.

John Dehlin [04:23:36] Yeah, yeah, it's also, it's also the Internet often doesn't always destroy things as much as reveal things. So it's just a basic example. It's not like when, you know, we are, you know, we are not anti police at all, but when, when you want to talk about police brutality on people of color, it's not that, that that police brutality on people of color is a new thing.

Austin Archer [04:23:59] No, it's that we have cameras probably

John Dehlin [04:24:01] if you watch like, you know, the O.J. simpson documentary made in America and the Rodney King riots and, and you just pay attention to the civil rights movement, you know that there has been, you know, white on black police brutality for hundreds of years. But the Internet, what it changes is people can now, you know, create a quick video snapshot shot and now it becomes public news.

Austin Archer [04:24:24] The lasting effect of Emmett Till, who, his mother famously said, I want them to see my son in the casket, I want an open casket. And they took photos. The lasting effect of, of being able to pass generationally photos of Emmett Till and his casket when that was happening all, all the time. But this was just a high profile case of it. The ability to let people see it, to let people really see it in real time. It is, it's massively, psychologically effective at putting you like, I mean, people who really think they've got a firm grip, grip on where they stand on social justice issues, who think people need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Austin Archer [04:25:03] And stop being a bunch of whiners. And you show them a clip of a family being brutalized by the police for seemingly no reason. Little kids in the back of the car being pulled out of the car and made to lie face down on hot ass fault. And you just go, how can you justify this? Watch this. I know it's hard to watch, but look at it and try to square the, the cognitive dissonance that takes place when you see that it, it will have, it will move us forward in, in huge leaps and stuff. But it's also like, like I said, comes with the, the opposite as well. It comes with everything. It's all of, of who we are.

John Dehlin [04:25:38] Yeah. You know, it allows a lot of the neg. Negative forces.

Austin Archer [04:25:41] It's our lives. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:25:43] There's a lot of toxic voices and toxic communities that we have to work through as well. So it's, it's a mixed bag. But all in all, are you saying, I guess I hear you saying people who want to do good may as well embrace it.

Austin Archer [04:25:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:25:58] Because it's here. And you may as well embrace it and try and use it to make the world a better place than just roll over and seed the Internet to the unhealthy.

Austin Archer [04:26:07] I'm saying it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It just is. It's just all things.

John Dehlin [04:26:11] It is.

Austin Archer [04:26:12] It's all the things. And, and it absolutely can be a tool for righteous causes and for justice and for progress, progression and for education and for compassion. And it, it's all of those things. So if I think it's a little bit like defeatist to go like the Internet is the, that's the evil that's going to destroy us. It's like, well, is all of our bad tendencies and all of our. Yeah, yeah, but it's. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:26:39] And when I. One of the things I love about your channel is when I watch your channel, I do get the sense that you're, you know, you're trying to have fun, you're trying to make people laugh. And I think you're trying to get people to think and have compassion. And so that's why I love your channel and that's why so many people love your channel. And I think that's why we're really grateful that you would come on today and, and share. And I also just really quickly want to highlight one comment made. There's a, there's a viewer listener that's really on point and really generous with Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [04:27:08] Tracy Griff Grittens writes Mormon stories Long form proves that at least this niche market will watch hours of continuous content. Because when I just, just to your point, when I started doing Mormon Stories podcast, I didn't want to do sound bite interviews, views. I didn't want to force someone's massive Mormon life journey, ex Mormon, into like 50 minutes. And so I'm just like, effort. I'm doing this because I love it and because I believe in it. And it seems like people can't get enough of this. So if I go eight hours, or seven in your case, I'm going seven hours. And if people like it, great.

John Dehlin [04:27:43] If they don't, you know, they can always chop it up later. But it's, you know, nobody's doing long. You know, very few people have historically been doing long form as a obnoxiously long. And it's one of the most consistent pieces of feedback I get, which is don't, don't shorten it. We love the long form and, you know, not everyone does, but for those who do, it's great.

Austin Archer [04:28:02] It's one of my favorite things about podcasts. It's like one, it's this form that is improvised. It's not scripted. And it's people trying their best. And usually, I mean, like, if people, even people who do an hour, you know, it's like we're trying our best to honestly and cohesively work through this idea or this, this thing that we're going to talk about for the next hour or three hours or four hours. And you're getting to really hear real people in real time trying their best to have an honest and useful discussion and conversation. And I'm like, you can't, you can't really simulate it with a scripted format. And, you know, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:28:37] And you feel like you're part of the conversation even when you're just listening. It's like, I can't listen to audiobooks quite the same way. I can't listen to scripted things the same way. But if it sounds conversational, that's what my brain picks up on. It's almost like if you go into a restaurant and there's a bunch of people, like eating ice cream and they're all like enjoying their ice cream, and then you're like, also enjoying your ice cream. Like, we're all, even though it's a photo, you're like, we're all friends. It's like something that's pre recorded, but you feel like you're, you're in the, you're in the joke, you're in the gang.

Carah Burrell [04:29:00] You're in like the group of people having the conversation because their brain is expanding. Yours is expanding. That's why, like, Mormon stories is dream job for me. But like, just generally, like this format is so helpful at helping people. Yeah. Revamp ideas and help them actually examine their ideas better. And I'm so glad that this podcast, we're at four and a half hours right now, just at this one right now. And I wouldn't change a thing. I think this was super informative and like, you had a lot of really good, really good takes there, Austin, and

John Dehlin [04:29:30] combined with yesterday, that puts us over seven hours. Did you think you'd do seven hours on Mormon stories?

Austin Archer [04:29:34] Not at all. But I, I, I don't remember regret it. This was a lot of fun. This was great.

John Dehlin [04:29:38] Well, we really appreciate you being willing to take time out of your holiday break here in Utah where there's probably a gazillion people that want to hang out with you and given us seven good hours. If you count our dinner.

Carah Burrell [04:29:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:29:49] If you count dinner, it was like nine. And if you count lunch today, we may go to 10.

Austin Archer [04:29:54] Wow. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:29:55] Just can't get enough. Also, I wanted to shout out for Tracy's comment that said, Carah can always make long form. Think giant yellow thin tuna and turn it into bite sized soup sushi. I think you're onto something. That is what I've been doing. I'm taking long form and turning it into minute long videos on Tick Tock.

John Dehlin [04:30:12] Tracy, you're on point. I'm, I'm throwing it down. I want to meet you, Tracy. So, Tracy, reach out to us@mormonstoriesgmail.com. we care and I want to have lunch with you. Is that fair, Carah?

Carah Burrell [04:30:20] Yeah. All right, yeah, sign me up.

John Dehlin [04:30:22] But just Tracy. No one else, right?

Carah Burrell [04:30:24] No. There are people who have been in this live stream for four and a half hours who have not left and have been commenting continually. These are like the OG awesome people who are here. There's just, you guys know who you are.

John Dehlin [04:30:35] It's fun just to see the subculture of commenters in, in a live stream because they can build their own community

Carah Burrell [04:30:41] for the Crow's Nest Maven.

John Dehlin [04:30:43] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:30:45] Anyway, thanks guys. Sorry if you didn't get a shout out, but just know I've been reading all your comments and thanks everyone for just participating in this conversation. It's been really, really good.

John Dehlin [04:30:54] So final shout out, Austin, all the ways people can follow you. We'll have these in the show notes to both episodes. But, but yeah, if you're Want to follow you.

Austin Archer [04:31:03] You're on YouTube right now. I'm on YouTube. Austin Archer. I'm on Spotify and Apple Music where you can find my music. Austin Archer and Bandcamp. You can buy my music there. I love it when people buy my music on Bandcamp. Patreon.com Austin Archer, if you want to get on my Patreon. But then on social media platforms where most people follow me, TikTok, Twitter, and Instagram, I'm your pal, Underscore Austin on all of those. Your pal, Austin.

John Dehlin [04:31:30] Yeah. So thank you and congratulations. Keep up the great work.

Austin Archer [04:31:34] Thanks.

John Dehlin [04:31:35] Don't forget us little people when you're, you know, get your first Oscar or got. When you get your Emmy and your Oscar and your Tony and. What's the other one?

Austin Archer [04:31:43] Yeah.

Closing Thanks and Farewell

John Dehlin [04:31:44] Anyway, Carah, it is just 2021 as we're coming to a close. You have been a huge shining gift. Gift to the Open Stories foundation and the Mormon stories in 2021. So I want to give you a formal thank you. It's been so fun. You have made this a great year, not just for me, but for our listeners and viewers, and it's just been delightful. I can't wait to see what 2022 holds for us.

Carah Burrell [04:32:10] I can't wait either. I hope the Mormon Stories listeners are also really excited because I feel like we're just getting started. We got rocket boosters on. Thank you, John, for hiring me back in May, giving me this opportunity. It has been a whirlwind, but so fun. You guys know I'm like, hard as nails. So this job is kind of hard. Me and John have been, like, talking about if we need to do an episode, but not like in a woe is me kind of way, but just like, in a. I want to bring you guys into the world. We need to have a board that says, like, days without incident and just have it at zero all the time of just how, like, different attacks and it's kind of hard to keep up with this job, but I love, love, love it.

Carah Burrell [04:32:45] And so, John, thank you for this opportunity. John Dehlin is a wonderful boss and a delight to work with. And we share similar senses of humor. We basically have esp. We basically finish each other's sentences when working on new things and projects and talking.

John Dehlin [04:32:57] I was gonna say sandwiches. I was gonna go with sandwiches. You want with sentences?

Carah Burrell [04:33:01] We finished each other's sandwiches.

John Dehlin [04:33:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:33:04] And also I hope that all this complimenting is going to get us a trip to Belgium because Tracy's in Belgium. So we need to have gosh Dang it.

John Dehlin [04:33:11] Tree. I've been to Belgium.

Carah Burrell [04:33:12] Tree.

John Dehlin [04:33:13] Super. Yeah. We gotta go to go to Belgium.

Carah Burrell [04:33:17] On the way. John's Billy booking tickets. We'll see out there soon. Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [04:33:22] Monica piece. That's the one tourist attraction that I've seen in Belgium. It's a little baby urinating and it's like a statue and it's some mythical story about how like World War II, there's like a bomb that's about to detonate and a baby runs up and urinates on the boss and like saves the town from being destroyed. It's called Monica Peace.

Austin Archer [04:33:43] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [04:33:44] And it's. It's like the biggest tourist.

Carah Burrell [04:33:47] I would love to see that.

John Dehlin [04:33:48] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:33:48] Can we do thrive Belgium?

John Dehlin [04:33:49] We're doing. We're coming to you Belgium.

Carah Burrell [04:33:52] Lori also said she's sick of us talking with our hands. And I like your creative spelling of my name, Lori. No offense, it's with a C. But anyway, we got to tie our hands to the chair, but I don't know. I've been restrained.

John Dehlin [04:34:05] Sorry.

Carah Burrell [04:34:05] 30 years.

John Dehlin [04:34:06] I'm so sorry. Sorry. But isn't there a TikTok guy that like, this is all he does?

Carah Burrell [04:34:09] Yeah. Sometimes people make a career out of just hand movements on the Internet.

Austin Archer [04:34:13] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:34:13] Not us though. You like, kind of seem like you're flying away sometimes, John. The way that you talk, you're like. And it's really close to your face. I like it. I'm just saying that's one creative critic.

John Dehlin [04:34:22] So everyone, I'll do this. This is better. You like that better?

Carah Burrell [04:34:25] I can't talk at the end of a five hour day. Where are we? Almost at Tick tock. This is a podcast. We're wrapping up up Austin.

Austin Archer [04:34:33] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:34:34] Thanks for being our guest today. Oh, incredible.

Austin Archer [04:34:37] My pleasure. This was great.

John Dehlin [04:34:38] And. And we'll end by just thanking everyone who donates. All year long. We had our best year ever. I'm using my hands again. Thank you to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and Y Stories foundation to make all this possible.

John Dehlin [04:34:54] We had our best year financially ever. We also had our best year in terms of downloads and views. I think in aggregate we had over 15 million downloads and views of our MP3s and views and YouTube and Facebook and elsewhere. Instagram has been amazing this year. TikTok and so it's just been a crazy year. It's been an amazing year. We could have done none it without our financial supporters. So thank you to everyone who donates.

John Dehlin [04:35:20] We couldn't do without you and unfortunately we know that less than one out of a thousand of our viewers are listening. Listeners actually donates and because of financial hard times or people moving on or people losing interest, we literally lose like 20 recurring donors every month. And if we don't replace those donors, then slowly our cash flow starts to evaporate. We start to have late, start to have to like cut services or lay off people. And we don't want to do that. So if you are continually benefiting from the content that we create or like with aa, if you have benefited from the Open Stories foundation for Mormon Stories and you want to pay it forward, we would love you to become a recurring donor, a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [04:36:10] You can just go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button, sign up for however many donation you know, 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. Afford. You can do one time donations as well. But that's how we live and breathe. We don't do fundraisers. We don't have these parties where we try and get everyone together and hire, spend a bunch of money to hire talent to try and squeeze you for money.

John Dehlin [04:36:35] If we just have a lot of small time donors making modest donations on a monthly basis, it turns out we can fund an operation that with just a couple full time and a few part time people, people are literally standing up to one of the most powerful organizations in the world. We're literally speaking truth to power to a trillion dollar corporate mammoth behemoth. And we're doing it in this teeny office in Holiday, Utah with a few cameras and a couple mixers and a few, I don't know, rugrats. Are you a rugrat, Carah?

Carah Burrell [04:37:12] Yeah. You literally like plucked me out of obscurity, out of like my, my bedroom in Cottonwood Heights, Utah. It's like I, I'm a nobody and I'm just grateful to be here. And we're just doing the thing that we're doing.

John Dehlin [04:37:25] You're nobody, Austin.

Austin Archer [04:37:26] I'm total nobody. And I would say that's another argument for the Internet. By the way. That's a big tally in the Internet. Standing up to trillion dollar corporations from a small office with a few little

John Dehlin [04:37:34] tools, a few hundred thousand dollars in budget. Stand up to a trillion dollar organization with literally an 8 or 9 billion dollars annual budget. Budget. We're, we're, we're holding them accountable with a few hundred thousand dollars a year.

Austin Archer [04:37:47] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:37:49] To the point that like I don't even know if there's even like a pro LDS apologist presence really on TikTok anymore because there's too many outspoken like ex Mormons, post Mormons, post religious people

John Dehlin [04:37:59] that are using your hands. I think using your hands is okay.

Carah Burrell [04:38:03] I think it is too. We'll just focus on my arms. We'll just talk like, I'll talk like this. No, yeah, it's. You asked me in my Mormon stories interview like, how come the church isn't more forward on trying to take over like platforms on TikTok and stuff. It's because there's too many outspoken people and I just want to have as many people who want to share their stories as possible. Whether it's TikTok, whatever platform somebody chooses, whether it's coming on Mormon stories and telling it as many different diverse voices in this field sharing their experience. That's all I care about. And the church is going to be what it's going to be. But we're just, we're going to keep doing our thing.

Austin Archer [04:38:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:38:37] And, and we'll just end with this as we started today. Yeah. The Mormon Church is condemning podcasts and TikTok and you know, websites and as your friend calls it, anti Mormon literature. But there's a reason why they're condemning all these platforms. It's because they're losing. Yeah, they're getting their. There's a reason why the Mormon Church abandoned the use of the term Mormon. It's because we, we co opted that term and dominated it.

John Dehlin [04:39:05] It's like in spite of literally hundreds of millions or billions of dollars spent trying to dominate the SEO, the search engine optimization for terms like Mormon, Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, we defeated the Mormon Church. And their abandonment of the term Mormon was not the product of modern day revelation. It was the product of, of TikTokers and Instagrammers and YouTubers and Facebookers and podcasters and bloggers speaking up, using their voice, speaking out. Like you, Austin, like so many people. Like you, Carah. Like so many people you. This army of social media influencers has, has transformed not only the Mormon Church, but organized religion, government, politics.

John Dehlin [04:39:55] Politics. And let's keep doing it. Let's. Those of us who want to fight for social justice, for goodness, for empathy, for the love of data, for the love of informed consent, let's keep speaking up. Let's keep raising our voices. Be it on TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or whatever or any new platform that emerges, let's keep it up and let's, let's change the world in a good way. What do you say?

Austin Archer [04:40:17] I love it.

John Dehlin [04:40:18] You're in it. Austin, are you in?

Austin Archer [04:40:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:40:19] I'm not giving up.

Austin Archer [04:40:20] I'm going to keep doing it.

John Dehlin [04:40:21] Carry you in. In.

Carah Burrell [04:40:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:40:22] Are we good?

Carah Burrell [04:40:23] Yeah. Keep going.

John Dehlin [04:40:24] Time for lunch.

Carah Burrell [04:40:25] Turn off time for lunch.

John Dehlin [04:40:26] Time for a bathroom break. Should we do it?

Austin Archer [04:40:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:40:28] All right.

Carah Burrell [04:40:29] It's time to sew. Long farewell.

John Dehlin [04:40:33] This might be the last episode we do of 2021. Is that possible?

Carah Burrell [04:40:36] That's literally impossible.

John Dehlin [04:40:38] You think we'll do more?

Carah Burrell [04:40:39] If you guys don't know how Mormon stories rolls, John and I just basically test text all the time of, like, we should do an episode tomorrow. Let's live stream something.

John Dehlin [04:40:46] It's Christmas now. We to do it.

Carah Burrell [04:40:48] We'll do it the day after Christmas.

John Dehlin [04:40:49] All right. So you.

Carah Burrell [04:40:50] We work too hard.

John Dehlin [04:40:51] You think there might be one more episode this year?

Carah Burrell [04:40:53] It's only the 27th.

John Dehlin [04:40:54] I know.

Austin Archer [04:40:56] We canceled.

John Dehlin [04:40:57] We had one right at the end and then got canceled.

Carah Burrell [04:40:59] But did it?

John Dehlin [04:41:00] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:41:01] Also, don't forget to plug Thrive this weekend.

John Dehlin [04:41:04] Oh, yeah. So. So yeah, for those.

Carah Burrell [04:41:06] And also, I just wanted to say something funny that awesome mentioned 19 hours ago where you're talking about how you can, like, build up a platform like Mormon stories in the second year. Want to tell people to go to something or change off the app. It's really hard to do. So Mormon stories, TikTok blowing up all the time. It's great. But then anytime we try to be like, hey, by the way, we have an event coming up. So it's like, remember how this video that has a million views about, like, a bishop asking inappropriate questions, and then everyone else who's like, in the community of bonding over how unfortunate it was that they were also traumatized by this thing. But then if you ask TikTok, can we get the people who also had this experience together in the same room? TikTok, like, no, no, no, no, no.

Austin Archer [04:41:44] If it's not here, then no. Yeah, if you're not doing it here, then no, no, no, no, no.

Carah Burrell [04:41:48] So if we try to hold an event with the people who watch our TikToks. Absolutely out of the question. TikTok said so. Just. It's kind of hard to get the word out all the time.

Austin Archer [04:41:56] Just every day I get comments from people that go, man, you should really make an album. And I'm like, I. I have many of them and I can't. I don't know how many times I need to say it and how many videos and how many comments sections.

Carah Burrell [04:42:10] I'll be wearing my merch and somebody will be like, I wish I could buy that and then I can't even type where to buy it because tick tock. You know we were talking last night. Will not tell you where to go. It's a frustrating platform. Anyway, go ahead and plug. We have a big gallo this weekend. I'm going to be wearing a dress. Don't worry, mom and dad. It's modest.

John Dehlin [04:42:29] Thanks to Aaron.

Carah Burrell [04:42:30] Thanks to Aaron. That didn't make my husband sound very good. Thanks to the old ball and chain. No, it's long sleeved. This part is missing though. Anyway, it's going to be fabulous. There's going to be an open like cash bar. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:42:44] So if you go to Thrive beyond religion, there is a couple things you should know about. One is the, the. The EPIC Gala, December 30th. And it's going to be, yeah, show up. You can take your pictures by fancy sports cars, casino, faux gambling, drinks, dancing probably maybe karaoke will break out out. Just a lot of post Mormons having fun, drinking responsibly, hopefully doing whatever substances they may or may not do responsibly, but having fun, having community, realizing they're not alone, realizing they're not crazy. And most importantly, enjoying life. Because that's the whole point. The point of life is not to rage against what you came from.

John Dehlin [04:43:25] That wasn't working for you. The point of life is to enjoy the moments you have in the moments you have less left. And that's what the, the Thrive Gala is going to be on December 30th. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and you can sign up for that. I, I literally think there's only like 20 or 30 tickets left. So it's going to sell out.

Carah Burrell [04:43:43] Really?

John Dehlin [04:43:43] Clint was like, I'm not even promoting it anymore because it's about to sell out. So that's fun.

Carah Burrell [04:43:48] Suit up, soldier.

John Dehlin [04:43:49] Yeah. Yeah. Our buddy McKay is going to be performing. Right, Soldier.

Carah Burrell [04:43:55] And be doing original songs and also some covers. So it's gonna be like a live rock band too. And just. Oh my God.

John Dehlin [04:43:59] And you can be Carah. Like, don't you want to be Carah?

Carah Burrell [04:44:02] Mostly I'm just gonna be like at the poker table, like really dialed in.

John Dehlin [04:44:06] So I may not be there because it's my anniversary and Margi and I are both sick and so we're trying to decide.

Carah Burrell [04:44:11] But anyway, thanks for letting me know seven hours into this podcast. Great.

John Dehlin [04:44:14] There's total consent also, for those who don't know, we've already announced Thrive Unite, which was Clint's idea, which was, was 22 local Thrive events throughout the world. And even when we had 10 or 12, I'm like, Clint, you're not going to get 22 cities to voluntarily sign up and hold an event on the same day, which is January 22, 2022. There's a 22 theme there. And it turns out we've got over 21. I mean, there's a problem. We've got over 22 cities now, but, like, New York is signing up. D.C. is signing up. Boise just signed up, up. And yeah, over 22 cities, including UK, Canada.

John Dehlin [04:44:55] If you want to find community and. And not just kind of worship centralized celebrity, but. But find local community and local community speakers and leaders and role models and just friends and. And. And people to do life with, check out thrive beyondreligion.com Sign up for Thrive UN Unite. You can even still have your own host your own local Thrive unite event through thrivebeyondreligion.com or you can email thrivebeyondreligion gmail.com and Clint will hook you up. Okay, Are we done?

Carah Burrell [04:45:28] Yeah, I said just want to make sure. Don't worship celebrity, you guys, but do come out to Sacramento, where I will be speaking.

John Dehlin [04:45:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And Alan and Katie Mount for Marriage on a Tightrope will be in Sacramento. So many good. You know, RFM's doing. Doing Seattle. Bill Real is doing Vegas. I'll probably help out here in Utah county, in the Springfield, Springville kind of Provo area. We need to get you. Austin, why aren't you freaking speaking at a Thrive? What the heck?

Austin Archer [04:45:54] I'll speak at a Thrive.

John Dehlin [04:45:55] Okay.

Austin Archer [04:45:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:45:56] Did you hear that, Carah?

Carah Burrell [04:45:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:45:58] All right. Austin's committed.

Carah Burrell [04:45:59] We have, like, a mega list of speakers. We're gonna add awesome to it.

John Dehlin [04:46:03] You are now added to our great mega list.

Austin Archer [04:46:05] Tell me where and I'll. Yeah, I'll meet you there.

John Dehlin [04:46:07] Okay. Okay. All right, man. Well, Austin, keep doing amazing things. Thanks so much for your generosity. And. And we look forward to you having 10 million subscribers someday.

Austin Archer [04:46:16] Yeah, maybe.

John Dehlin [04:46:17] And being in many future films and getting your Urgot. Is that what it's called in Urgot?

Austin Archer [04:46:21] Egot.

John Dehlin [04:46:22] Egot.

Austin Archer [04:46:22] Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony.

John Dehlin [04:46:24] Okay, Egot. What did I get? Ergot. What is it?

Austin Archer [04:46:26] I don't know. What would that. What would the rb.

Carah Burrell [04:46:28] I don't know.

Austin Archer [04:46:28] I don't know.

Carah Burrell [04:46:29] That's something they sell at rei.

John Dehlin [04:46:31] All right, love you guys. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Carah, Sarah.

Carah Burrell [04:46:35] Oh, thanks.

John Dehlin [04:46:36] Thanks, Austin.

Austin Archer [04:46:37] Thanks.

John Dehlin [04:46:37] All right, see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.