Welcome and Host Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Live. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's May 15, 2025, and today is our second sort of pilot of a format that we're experimenting with where you, our viewers and listeners and community members can join us in a video call in show to share your thoughts and opinions on various topics of interest. And today, the topic of interest that we've chosen is our it's the perennial Are Mormons Christian? And as we, as we had last week, we have two kind of panelists reappearing to join with us today. We have Colby Reddish and we have Cam Reddish. Hey, y'. All, welcome, welcome back. And Cam, you'll have to unmute yourself. Welcome back, Colby.

Guest 4 [00:01:02] Hey, John, thanks for having us again for the second episode of Morton Stories Live. I'm excited for this.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] And Cammie, you got your, you upgraded. You got your own camera this time.

Cam Reddish [00:01:12] Yeah. And I have this fancy, I don't know, screen in the background. I'm in my closet, but

John Dehlin [00:01:20] it looks fancy. Well, we also want to welcome all of you who are joining us in the live stream. We've already got several hundred people joining us and we want to let you all know that the way that this works is first off is you have to have something interesting or important to say about this topic. And if you want to join the stream, you think up what that's going to be. Then you click on the link that's pinned in YouTube to the top of the page. Make sure you enable your video and your audio so that both are enabled. And then you'll type in the little chat window within the Streamyard app what you want to say in your comment. And then we'll choose you or kick you out, depending on whether we think your comment is a good comment. So that's how this is going to work. We'll see how well it goes. We're not going to be able to entertain every person that wants to come on. And most importantly, we just want to say that while we really are looking forward to this conversation, this is not the place to tell your Mormon story. That's the other Mormon story. So when we bring you on, we're looking for short one minute comments or short one minute questions. If we as a panel decide to engage in a dialogue with you, we'll lead that. But this isn't the place to sort of say, hey, let me give you a 20 minute version of my Mormon story, because that would make the program too long. So that's how it's Going to work today. Let's go ahead and jump in. Maybe before we do though, I just want to share a couple quick slides. One of the things that I love Most about this YouTube age is that I could do these YouTube polls and we're getting phenomenal responses. So I went ahead and just put up this question on the YouTube poll, in your opinion, at our Mormons Christian. And I basically allowed for YouTube, by the way, YouTube only allows four options, so I have to figure out how to ask in ways within that constraint of four questions. And so basically, you know, I asked Christians, people who self identify as Christian whether or not they consider Mormons to be Christian. And I asked people who don't identify as Christian whether or not they consider Mormons to be Christian. And we had about 8,700 people respond to the survey. And what I did is I went ahead and broke it down by either Christians or non Christians. And what we found is that 65% of people of our audience who identifies as Christian do not consider Mormons to be Christian and 35% of our audience that self identifies as Christian. And I assume that that includes the believing Mormons, they consider Mormons to be Christian. So at a 2 to 1 ratio, our of our audience Christians do not consider Mormons to be Christian. And that actually flips with people who don't identify to be Christian. A majority of our non Christian audience, 54% do consider Mormons to be Christian. And I assume a vast majority of those are former Mormons who identified as Christian as Mormons when they were Mormons. And then 46% of our non Christian audience, which would be never Mormons, who are either other religions or atheist or agnostic, 46% of those do not consider Mormons to be Christian. Now just for fun, let's go ahead and pause. Colby, and, and Cam, any thoughts on, on those statistics? I'm curious if y' all have any thoughts on that. Go ahead, you go first, Colby.

Framing the Question: Are Mormons Christian?

Guest 4 [00:05:34] Okay. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And you know, openly as a ex Mormon, I most describe myself probably as an atheist or agnostic.

Guest [00:05:44] Today.

Guest 4 [00:05:45] I always kind of feel like the fight over our Mormons Christian is not kind of my, my fight.

Guest 2 [00:05:51] Right.

Guest 4 [00:05:51] But I definitely think it's interesting to look at the breakdown and it's definitely interesting to me that it, it basically flips for people that don't identify as Christians that they think to a greater, you know, to a greater percentage that Mormons do fall on the Christian spectrum. What do you think, Cam?

Cam Reddish [00:06:09] Yeah, I, I agree. It's surprising a little bit to dive into this topic because I don't think I realized how insistent some Christians are that Mormons aren't Christian. Because I have spent the majority of my life claiming to be Christian, believing that I was Christian. And it is surprising to see that there are many, many Christians who don't think that Mormons are Christian. And my world was kind of opened up after leaving and searching. I mean, Christ is something that I held onto after leaving. And so for a while, we were kind of looking at other Christian churches. And I remembered back to my mission serving in Arizona, that there were a ton of Christian churches who would advertise classes about Mormonism, about how Mormons aren't Christian. And I was always so offended by that. And now that I've kind of looked into it, I completely understand. Because when you have a founder, Joseph Smith, who claims that everybody else is wrong and that we have the true Christianity, I can see how that would be kind of offensive to Christians or Catholics who believe in this deep history and this kind of like, that it's continued on. I mean, we have this whole blank apostasy part of our story. And then like, the church, the true church comes back, but theirs has been there all along with authorities who have been making decisions. And yeah, it means a lot to them. And so I can understand both sides because while I always would have described myself as Christian and that meant something to me, I can see that it means something slightly different to other Christians, and that's also really meaningful. And I can see how it'd be kind of offensive to come across a religion that claims everybody else is wrong.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Yeah, I'll just say that my viewers and listeners who know my story will know that I grew up in Katy, Texas, a suburb of Houston. And it was very apparent to me that the broader Christian world didn't consider us Mormons to be Christian. As soon as I started dating, you know, young women in my high school, many of whom were Southern Baptist, their parents would freak out. Even my friend Joey, whose parents were sort of Pentecostal. They didn't want Joey being my friend because I was a cult member and not a Christian. This girl Stephanie Thompson that I dated, her dad was a successful oil man in Katie, that her parents didn't want her dating me. And again, like you just said, Cam in the Katy Baptist Church that I would drive by on the way to seminary every morning every year, they would. They would show the God Makers film and they would have a billboard that said, you know, this weekend, seminar Mormons and other cults and was always offensive to me and shocking that Mormons were not considered by Christians to be cults. And you know, particularly because it's, it's named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So Jesus Christ is literally in the name of. We, you know, Mormons believe in the Holy Bible and the New Testament. They believe that, you know, that they believe in God. They believe in Jesus is the Son of God. They believe that Jesus died and was resurrected after three days. That Jesus will come again, the second coming, that Jesus will be our judge, that Jesus is, you know, all powerful and all loving and the person that we should emulate. So, like, on face value as a Mormon, it just never made sense to me that we wouldn't be full fledged, welcomed into the Christian community. So that's my personal. Let's just say I'm channeling my orthodox believing, raised in the church, Mormon self. Anything you want to add, Colby, to that?

Cam Reddish [00:10:21] I have something really quick before you go, Cole, there. It really comes down to what you think Christian means, I think. And for Christians. Christians. Sorry, I'm getting my, my brain's all mixed up. But the definition is just so different for Mormons. It really is this emotional tie to our Savior Jesus Christ and following him. And so we feel so strongly that we're Christians, but we really aren't Christians in the sense that like historical Christians, doctrinal theology, like the Christian theology that other Christians believe in, like, we have some really big differences. And so it makes sense to me. But to claim to be Christian emotionally, yes, I felt like I was a Christian as a Mormon, but theologically it doesn't match up.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Colby, were you going to say something?

Guest 4 [00:11:16] Yeah, well, I was actually going to ask you to go to the next slide and just kind of highlight.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] I'll go there next.

Guest 4 [00:11:21] Yeah, great. I was just going to highlight that people who've listened to Mormon stories before have probably. They may have even seen this episode where you had Matt Harris on to talk about the history of the production of the church's gospel topics essays. So these gospel topics essays that started to be rolled out in 2013, 2014, 2015, they basically deal with some of the most pressing and controversial issues inside of all of Morm Mormonism. And I just wanted to highlight that there is a gospel topics essay that specifically deals with this issue. Are Mormons Christian? Just to kind of highlight that. However one kind of comes out on the answer to this question, it's obviously a big enough issue that the church selected it as one of the 13 things that they decided to write, you know, an essay about and put out to the world, I have their featured Matt Harris's book where he deals with the Church's essays and then like essentially a scholarly response in essays in that book that deal with each of the essays. And I just have from the church's website, basically the beginning of that Are Mormons Christian Essay where they say that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christian. And I think every, every one of us who's been Mormon would basically agree with that, that they, you know, that Mormons would always decide describe themselves as Christian. They would highlight the fact that the, the church is the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, you can even see, I think this movement in the CH to shorten the term of Latter Day Saints off and make it just the Church of Jesus Christ. For people who don't know, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is actually the third name of the church. So it started out as the Church of Christ and it was the Church of Latter Day Saints and now it's landed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, kind of combined them all together. So I think I just wanted to highlight that issue. And then I also wanted to play a quick clip of our old friend Brad Wilcox, really highlighting, I think, why this is such an issue, why it's been such a long standing issue. It's because really from the beginning of Mormonism and however you really determine that Mormonism has always held itself out as being the one true Christian sect that's as a restorationist branch of Christianity. That would be my position, that Mormonism is a branch of Christianity, but that as a restorationist branch of Christianity, they're really focused on saying we are the true Christians that are bringing Christianity back. That is even built into Joseph Smith's 1838 account of the first vision where he recounts that Jesus Christ said to him that all other professors and creeds were corrupt and that they, you know, they draw close to draw close to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him. And so all I wanted to do is kind of juxtapose Brad Wilcox saying that other Christians are playing church relative to Mormonism and just kind of highlight this is one of the reasons that it's been an issue and will probably be an issue for the entirety of Mormonism's history is because while they identify as Christians, other Christians don't necessarily see it that way because they define the term differently. So did you want to do any commentary before we play that, John?

How Mormons View Other Christian Churches

John Dehlin [00:14:32] No, let's play it. They'd pull out the stuffed animals, they'd put them on the couch, they'd sing the song, they'd do the talk. Got a little nervous when my daughter started blessing the sacrament, but

Guest 4 [00:14:49] they'd play church.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] And I used to think, oh, that's so cute. It's so cute. But now I'm older and I realize it wasn't just cute. It's actually what most people in the world are doing. They're playing church, they're sincere, they want it to count, but they don't have the authority, they don't have God's permission.

Speaker F [00:15:15] So that the things they do really count.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Yeah, there was a. So that's Brad Wilcox, a top leader in the Mormon Church, basically accusing all other Christian churches as potentially being non Christian or at least questioning their Christianity. Our, our friend Dan Vogel, I think, wrote with the in a sarcastic comment, he wrote, are Christians Christians. Right. But you know, I think that's a point that I'm going to be making later, is that while Mormons get offended that that other Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian. Mormons absolutely don't see other Christian churches as being legitimate or valid in the sense that they're none of no Christian. No non Mormon Christian baptism counts in heaven according to Mormons. No non Mormon Christian marriage or wedding counts in heaven. No christening, you know, none of it. All those ordinances according to the Mormon Church are dead ordinances without any authority. And so in some ways, Mormons can dish it out even more than they can take it.

Guest 4 [00:16:36] Yeah. And to go hand in hand with what you just said, John, which I totally agree with, is it was really on my mission. And I just realized all three of us are alumni of the Arizona Tempe Mission.

Cam Reddish [00:16:47] Right.

Guest 4 [00:16:48] All three of us on this call. But when I, when I entered the mission field, I started working with a guy, great guy, who had trained to be a Lutheran pastor and then was later in his life investigating Mormonism. This was back in the early 2000s when I was in the mission field. And when we shared with him the story of the first vision and he read it in its entirety, I did not realize how different. Just to your comment, John, I did not realize how differently Mormons who are raised in understanding the first vision and reading it, that they have a blind spot for the way that that language in the first vision account can come across, specifically that it talks about the creed, you know, the Creeds being an abomination in Christ's sight. That's supposedly what what Christ said to Joseph Smith. And that's one of the reasons, I think, like you said, that it kind of goes both ways, right. That while Christians can be viewed as maybe gatekeeping the term Christian to exclude Mormons. Mormons, I don't say, I don't think they would say that, you know, more conventional Christians aren't Christians. But you're right, there is this air of illegitimacy that they, that they put on Christians that aren't Mormons. So I think that's a great point. I think if we can bring on our first caller. Tanner had a great comment about how he would decide who is and isn't a Christian.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] All right. Hey, Tanner. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live.

Guest 2 [00:18:18] Hi. Thank you. Good to meet everybody.

Speaker H [00:18:21] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:18:22] My point was that I honestly, it ties to a lot of what has been spoken to already, which is the theological arguments are what's addressed in that are Mormons Christians? Article in the Gospel topics essays. But if you think of the broad spectrum of beliefs, especially in the more progressive believers in Christianity and in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it becomes political rather than theological. You can essentially believe anything and belong to either of these two organizations. And so the reason that I think it actually is more important to answer today than, you know, in previous decades even, is that right now we live in a country where Christianity has a lot of power and the Mormon Church has a lot of power. And so I think my instinct on this is that I don't want the LDS Church to be a Christian religion because it both organizations are already too powerful as it is right now, and I'd rather them not be combined.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Wow, that's a hot take, that, that Tanner doesn't want the Mormon Church to have any more money or power than it has. And if it's embraced and accepted into the Christian mainstream, that just gives it more power. That's an interesting take. Yeah. Thank you for sharing, Tanner.

Cam Reddish [00:19:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] And thanks for joining us. Tanner, where are you calling from?

Guest 2 [00:19:52] Oh, I'm from the same booming metropolis of Boise, Idaho as Colby.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Ooh, Are y' all buds?

Guest 2 [00:20:00] Not yet.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Okay, cool. Well, we're planning, we're planning a Boise thrive in either September or October. So maybe we'll get to meet you face to face, Tater.

Guest 2 [00:20:10] Yeah, that would be great.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] All right, well, thanks for joining us, Tanner. It's good to have you.

Guest 2 [00:20:15] Yeah, likewise.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Okay. All right, so I, I, I created a few thoughts. Just really? Whoa, no, no, no, you. Okay, Colby, let's go to the next slide. And. And what you hadn't prepared next?

Two Ways to Define Christianity

Guest 4 [00:20:30] I think the next slide actually, is Cammie broke down, basically, the two different ways to think about this. So, Cam, do you want to talk about that? It goes hand in hand, really, with what Tanner just shared.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] Yeah. Take it away, Kami.

Cam Reddish [00:20:40] Sure. Yeah. It's. It's mostly just when you listen to Brad Wilcox, it's so condescending to. To listen to him speak about many, many people that way, because the reality is Mormons are this tiny sliver of what claims to be Christianity. And the really big differences are Mormons want to use the same terms, but they don't follow the same theology as Christians. And the biggest difference is there's three that the article brings up, and that is the difference in the Trinity. Believing in three separate beings as a Mormon and then just having one God as a Christian is just very, very different. And I can understand how that feels difficult to accept that we're Christians when we believe very, very different things about who God is and who Christ is, yet we use all of the same terms and atonement, and we do the same types of celebrations, even. And then the other, trying to remember what the other two were. That God is different. That.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Do you have it on your phone?

Cam Reddish [00:21:55] Yeah, that. I do have it on my phone, the slide. But it's probably not going to be as easy to.

Speaker I [00:22:02] Oh, I got.

Cam Reddish [00:22:04] I got it. So the core definition is anyone who follows and worships Jesus Christ. And that is always what I believed about Christians. And I couldn't understand why they wouldn't accept us because I followed and believed Jesus Christ. Um, but for them, it's very different. And they don't believe Mormons can be saved doing what we're doing. And obviously, listening to Brad Wilcox, we don't believe they can be saved doing what they're doing. And so it's really this. We're butting heads on that a lot. And then the view of Jesus and the view of God are completely different because we believe they're separate. And then the authority from the Bible, we just decided it doesn't matter that. That the Bible says that you can't have more scripture. We have more scripture because we have continuing revelation, and God calls new prophets. And that is just a completely different thing because we can shift and change, and they're hanging on to the Bible as the ultimate authority. And we've changed the Bible and we've added the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. And so that was the other big difference. It was the difference in God and Jesus and the difference in our canon, like our. For them, the Bible is the sole like authority and they call it sola scriptura. And then just the historical differences of they have this lineage, this line, kind of how we claim to have this line broken up by the apostasy. They have this line and they've had authorities making these decisions like the Nicene Creed and the things that have been emphasized. They believe that's coming from God because they have Christ Church and we claim to have Christchurch too, but it went away and came back. That's the difference.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] All right, thanks. Thanks for that. Kami, anything you want to add?

Guest 4 [00:23:53] No, I think, I think Cammy's real simple definition, the more simple definition that typically Mormons apply. Right. Which is basically if you believe in Jesus and believe that he's the power to salvation, that you are a Christian is what one of our guests had. So let's go ahead and bring up Sam Ahlstrom to share his perspective.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] All right. Hey, Sam. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live. How are you?

Speaker J [00:24:23] Good.

Speaker K [00:24:23] How are you doing, John?

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Good, yeah. Tell us what question or comment you have.

Speaker K [00:24:28] I mean, for me it's pretty simple. Anybody who believes in Jesus Christ, I mean, they're immediately a Christian. There's all these different sects and denominations that are going to allow us to determine a little bit more about what that definition means. But I see oftentimes those who are Protestant, evangelical, they put Mormons kind of in the same camp as Catholics, saying that they're not Christian, when in reality they believe in Jesus Christ. And by the way, that's coming from somebody who's an atheist. I don't have a dog in this fight. I think it's just very simple. If you believe in Jesus and you're a Christian.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Yeah. I think that's a point that I'm going to also be addressing in a second, but I think that's a really reasonable argument. If you claim to be a Christian, if you believe in the Bible, if you believe in Jesus, why don't you qualify? Right.

Guest 4 [00:25:24] Can I ask you a follow up question about that, Sam?

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Yeah, absolutely.

Guest 4 [00:25:28] Do you, in your view, do you have to believe anything specific about Jesus? What if you just, and I'll give you an example, what if you believed that there was a historical Jesus and you believe that he was a good teacher, but you don't necessarily believe he was like the savior of the world. Is that person then a Christian?

Speaker K [00:25:47] I would think so. I mean, if you're following the teachings of Jesus, I think that makes you a Christian. I don't think it necessarily says anything about, or being a Christian necessarily says anything about the divinity of Jesus. I think it's just applying the teachings that are found in scripture, whatever that may be. Those teachings being attributed to this Christ figure as being important in your life, that would make you a Christian. And once again, that's from a guy on the outside looking in.

Guest 4 [00:26:20] Yeah, that's interesting. Sam, thanks for sharing that perspective with us. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Sam, thanks for joining us.

Speaker K [00:26:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Where are you calling from, Sam?

Speaker K [00:26:28] I'm calling from Southern Colorado, Bond.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Okay, well, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live. Hope to have you back.

Speaker K [00:26:37] Awesome. Thank you.

Reasons Christians Exclude Mormons

John Dehlin [00:26:37] All right. Okay. Well I, I, I prepared a couple thoughts if it's okay, that I'll share and then we'll just literally go to, go to calls and, and bring up some quotes from our, from our poll as it makes sense. So here's my take. I, if I had to summarize the main reasons that I'm aware of for why Christians exclude Mormons, I think the number one reason is they just think we're too weird. Like a way that I would disagree with Sam, you know, the comment we just had is like, even as a Mormon, I didn't consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christian because I think, I think it's reasonable for a Christian to say, for example, if it's a sex culture or if it's a cult that's just too weird or, or you know, too abusive or the, the cult leader is like even overshadowing the importance of Jesus. I think it's reasonable for a Christian to say it doesn't matter if you believe in the Bible and, and claim that, that you follow Jesus and even believe Jesus was divine. I think there's a degree to which if you're too weird, if your leaders are too culty or if your organization is too abusive, you just don't qualify under that criteria. And similarly, I think that normal Christians, traditional Christians view Mormons just like Mormons view Jehovah's Witnesses and they say, sorry, Joseph Smith is too big in your church. Too much corruption, too much sex, cult like activities. I think that might be the number one reason that people don't think the Mormon church is Christian. What Colby and Cam, y', all, please jump in and disagree with any of these points that I want to make.

Cam Reddish [00:28:43] Well, I love from somebody who was Mormon and deconstructed and now is Christian, because it would be interesting to hear what it. Like, what it feels like, what the differences feel like believing in Christianity as a Mormon and then believing in Christianity as. As like a traditional Christian. Because it probably does feel very different. We focus on very different things. I mean, it's only recently that Mormons even accepted using the cross that was not a symbol we even used. And that's such a mainstream symbol in, like, traditional Christianity to. To kind of like, remember and celebrate the cross or have, like, rosary beads and things like that, other ways to remember Christ. And we've got our CTR rings. And it's just. It probably is a very different feel around what being Christian means because it's such an identity for people. And that's why I think it's so important. Part of me wants to just be like, why do you. Why does anyone care? Why can't we all just all be Christian? But this is. It's so meaningful.

Guest 3 [00:29:48] It's.

Cam Reddish [00:29:48] It's your identity view.

Guest 4 [00:29:50] Yeah.

Cam Reddish [00:29:51] Your identity.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Yeah. That's fair.

Guest 4 [00:29:55] Yeah. I would say, in addition to what Kimmy just said, I, you know, I kind of look at it the same way in the sense that it's like, I don't really understand why it's such a huge point of disagreement, because I think as long as someone's clear about the definition they're using when they use the term Christian, then that to me is the most interesting discussion is like, what definition are you applying? But to your comment, John, about just the weirdness of it, I remember this is when Cammie and I were still TBMs, like probably about five years ago when the Leah Remini documentary and with Mark Ridner was coming out. We were watching that on Netflix. And I remember this isn't necessarily the weirdness. It's more like the control of the group. But as we were watching that, there were so many things as people were breaking down their exit from Scientology that I would look at Cammy and say, okay, we don't do that, but we also don't not do that. So when it came to things like shunning or fair game, I'm not at all saying that the Mormons are like, to that level, but there is some of that type of behavior. And so I can understand why conventional Christians that don't have that same, like, authority structure can see Mormons, you know, closer to that end of the spectrum, because I do think that is something that's very unique about Mormonism and Catholicism specifically, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and the other ones. He mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] Yeah, all right, well just quickly I'll just go ahead and mention some of the other reasons and then we'll go to just calls. But I think that, I think that Mormons are discriminated against by other Christians because they're in a relatively new church. We're literally less than 200 years old. I think there's something to that just being too new. I think we're more considered Christians in 2025 than we were in 1985. And I think the Mormon Church has worked hard to become more and more accepted. And I do think that Prop 8 and other sort of political fights have helped to unite, you know, Mormons with mainstream Christians because Mormons realized we need Catholics and evangelicals to fight some of these political fights and vice versa. They could use our money and power. So I do think sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But, but we're still relatively young and new. I think that Mormonism doesn't claim to be an offshoot of like Catholicism or like Lutheranism or Presbyterianism or Baptism. So Baptists. So that, because we don't branch off. I think that's something, I think people don't like that, that Mormons add to the Bible that we have the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, the Doctrine and Covenants. That's always been a big problem because there's verses you can find in the Bible that say don't ever add anything else to, to this book. I think there's a lot of people that have a problem with how we view God specifically that God and Jesus are both gods. So that's two, that's one more God than Christians are comfortable existing out there. They just want one God. And so they've got the Trinity view. We've got God and Jesus as separate gods, but then we've also got our teachings of theosis where, where Mormons, faithful Mormons can become God someday. And that God had a God and the God's God had a God. I think that's a big deal killer. That's the whole genesis for the God Makers movie. I think some people don't like our, our teachings of eternal families because the Bible says that families won't even exist in heaven. A lot listed that we focus too much on works and, and obeying commandments and getting ordinances to become saved. Where a lot of mainstream Christian churches, you know, believe that you just, you're saved by grace and works don't matter. I think people are annoyed by modern day prophets that Mormons claim 15 or 16 or however many prophets that came after Jesus. And I think it's also fair to say that Mormons historically have focused more on Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon than on Jesus in the Bible. So those are the things that I would list as, as the main reasons why Christians exclude Mormons. Are any. Before we bring in the callers, any other final reactions to those, Colby or Cam, or should we just start bringing on the callers?

Polytheism, Scripture, and Joseph Smith

Guest 4 [00:34:35] Go ahead, Kim.

Cam Reddish [00:34:36] Oh, I, I mean, I think we should probably just bring on the callers, but one quick thought is that I, I really do want to hear from other people. What, what does being a Christian mean? It's fascinating to see the spectrum of things that come up when you ask somebody what does being Christian mean to you? And so, yeah, I'm excited to hear from people.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] All right, well, let's start. Let's bring on Michelle. Michelle, you've been patient, you've been patiently waiting. Where are you calling from, Michelle?

Speaker M [00:35:07] Hi, John. I'm calling from the Milwaukee area of Wisconsin.

Speaker K [00:35:10] Whoa.

Speaker M [00:35:11] I know.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] Are you a, are you a Bucks fan?

Speaker M [00:35:15] I'm not. I am a die hard brewers fan. A Brewer's going to their game tomorrow.

Guest [00:35:21] So.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Are you a cheesehead? Do you, do you consider yourself a cheesehead?

Speaker M [00:35:25] Not after Aaron Rodgers and that whole fiasco.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] All right, are you Mormon? Never Mormon.

Speaker M [00:35:32] So I'm a nevermo, but I consider myself atheist now. I actually was on the payroll of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America for a while, essentially working in apologetics. Colby, I appreciate your input. I'm a paralegal, so I guess the three major things for me are when I first learned about the doctrine of Mormonism was believing that Mormons were polytheistic, that Mormons believe that if you are righteous enough, celestial kingdom, all that stuff, you can become your own God and have your own planet and rule over your own dominion. The second big thing is John made the point of it, the separation of God and Jesus as separate beings. And then Colby had also mentioned the importance of Joseph Smith. And my perspective as a Nevermo was that Joseph Smith seemed more important than Jesus

Guest 3 [00:36:30] and

Speaker M [00:36:33] Joseph. Last thing, I think that was all that I had. Oh, and if Jesus was the end all be all for Christianity, savior of the world, son of God, why would God then need to send Joseph to restore the church and truly be the savior of the world?

Guest 4 [00:36:57] So, yeah, those are some interesting thoughts, Michelle. Thank you for that comment. I think, I think one of the things that's interesting about the polytheism or this idea that There are multiple gods is Mormons will fight that tooth and nail and say, we are not polytheistic, we don't believe in multiple gods. And they'll do this weird workaround where they basically say, because we only worship the one God, and that one God is actually three people, that we are not polytheistic. We're still monotheistic. I always just think, like, these are just labels. And if you do believe in multiple beings who have the power of God, it just seems kind of like a weird. Like, it's not. Mormons don't have the typical, like, evangelical need to not commit heresies because they're not part of the club really, anyways, right? They're like a whole nother branch, a restorationist branch. So I've never understood why that's a hill that they choose to die on, but they do. So I think because of that, they. They would usually argue that they're henotheistic, basically, like, we believe in multiple gods, but we only worship the one. To your comment about Joseph Smith's, you know, wait, really quick.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Wait, Colby, can I. Can I check in with Michelle about that? So, Michelle, think of it like the multiverse, right? Like, within the universe that any of us are interacting with, there's only one God. And all Mormons are saying is theoretically, in the multiverse, there are other universes where there might be other gods to those universes, but those gods aren't gods to this universe. We worship one God, the God of this universe. Does that fly, Michelle? Like, it's a little unorthodox. Is it disqualifying?

Speaker M [00:38:43] Yes, because then in that way, Mormons are acknowledging the existence of other gods over other universes.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] But, like, let's just say. Why can't you just say, well, the Bible, you know, obviously these are like pre, almost prehistoric people. Like, this is thousands of years ago. They're writing with a limited understanding. Maybe they just didn't get all of the mysteries of the universe. They just captured stuff that was relevant to, frankly, a bunch of, like, you know, people I don't know, walking around the Middle east in dust clouds and herding sheep in villages.

Guest 4 [00:39:25] The phrase you're looking for is the phrase you're looking for, John, to borrow a quote from Hitchens, is illiterate goat herders.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Exactly. Like, they're not gonna go into them. They didn't have Spider man in the Marvel movies. They're not gonna go into the multiverse conversation with Moses and Aaron and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. You know, limited understanding.

Speaker M [00:39:51] And I will say One last thing is.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Wait, argue with me. Argue with me.

Speaker M [00:39:56] Well, no, you, you prompted another thought. Then you mentioned, like these prehistoric people in this time, there is contention in Christianity between these various sects of literalism versus what is more of an interpretive thing. I grew up with both influences. I grew up with the world of works and the world of saved by grace through faith. It's something that I constantly battled with. But that. To your point, then how do we. Nobody was there with Joseph Smith either. And all the accounts of the history, shout out Sandra Tanner, love her. Are also not consistent about it. So what sources can we trust? Whether it be the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the pearl of great price, any of these things. You know, you can always poke holes

John Dehlin [00:40:48] as far as you're concerned about why Joseph a Mormon would say, because the Bible is super problematic, it's self contradictory, it may not even be historical. And you needed Joseph Smith to kind of like correct the errors in the Bible and all the plain and precious things that were taken out by corrupt Catholic monks and priests.

Speaker M [00:41:12] Like, as if the Book of Mormon is not extremely corrupt in its own right. And like the story of Laban.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] And then, hey, now. Hey.

Speaker M [00:41:23] Fall out of that. I'm following along with the Lori Valo daybell coverage right now. Shout out hidden True crime. Lauren's great.

John Dehlin [00:41:31] Are you saying, Are you saying, by their fruits you shall know them? Is that what you're saying?

Speaker M [00:41:37] I don't know.

Guest 4 [00:41:37] John Colby. I had, I had one thing I wanted to share just to go to your comment, Michelle, about the centrality of Joseph Smith inside of Mormonism that can be so triggering for, for many other Christians, people might know this. Joseph Smith's birthday is December 23rd. So it's always right around Christmas. And I had a. I had a sacrament program that happened to fall on December 23, where literally the only time Jesus Christ was mentioned was the opening and closing prayer. And the entire program was dedicated to talking about Joseph Smith. And obviously you're going to have to have, like, conversations about, you know, your foundational prophet. Like, I'm not just criticizing that. But it was the Christmas Sunday service and it just so happened to fall on Joseph Smith's birthday. So they arranged it around Joseph Smith and his life and the Nashville tribute music about Joseph Smith the prophet. And I remember again, even as a fully believing Mormon, being like, this would definitely be ammo for why someone would believe that we're not Christian. Like, it's Christmas Sunday and we spent the entire day talking about Joseph Smith. I also wanted to share. Michelle, if you've never heard this quote before, this comes right from the History of the Church, Volume 6, where Joseph Smith actually brags. Some people say he brags and basically compares himself favorably to Jesus Christ. And I wanted to read you that quote since you probably haven't heard it and get your thoughts on it. He said, I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together. Since the days of Adam, a large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me. Yet when they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. So, as someone who's like a Nevermo that's interested in this, did you know that Joseph Smith bragged about himself relative to Jesus?

Speaker M [00:43:37] Well, I've. I've consumed my fair share of Mormon Stories content, but the first thing that pops out to me, and that is, oh, boy, is he prideful. And isn't that the opposite of Jesus Christ and his humility? And if the Mormon Church truly is all about Jesus and becoming, changing the language to becoming like gods instead of becoming gods, then what's the whole point? What's everything in the temple for? You know, what's more important?

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Yeah. Well, Michelle, you're super cool. I love when never Mormons are as fascinated in Mormonism as you are. So I'm super glad you called. It's great to have you on Mormon Stories Live. I hope to meet you in person someday, and I hope you'll join us again.

Speaker M [00:44:29] That'd be great. I'm planning to take a little road trip to Nauvoo, Illinois to do a history tour. So thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Come to Salt Lake. Come to Salt Lake, Michelle. All right.

Cam Reddish [00:44:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Take care, Michelle.

Guest 4 [00:44:41] Thanks, Michelle.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] Oh, that was so fun. What a great guest. All right, well, let's go ahead and bring on some more people. James, you're next. You have to unmute yourself. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live.

First Callers: Never-Mormon and Ex-Mormon Perspectives

James [00:44:56] Hey, thank you so much for having me.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Our pleasure. Where are you calling from?

James [00:45:01] I am calling from Aubrey, Texas, in the Metroplex up in dfw.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] And are you a Mo Exmo or Nevermo?

James [00:45:09] Never Mormon. I have several friends who are Mormon and I've kind of been. I've had a good time kind of getting to know the Mormon Church. I don't think I would ever join it, but it. It's been a really unique experience. Like just getting to hear about it from people who are Mormons and then who were Mormons and then left the Mormon Church.

Guest 4 [00:45:34] Those are the ones you have to be careful about, James, those xmos.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] Well, James, what was your question or comment?

James [00:45:41] Yeah, so I'm an evangelical Christian. I've got a lot of questions slash comments. But I think what is most pressing on my mind is the LDS Church. They believe that they are the only true church, so they are the only true Christians. And so I, I profess like a historical Christian creed. And so they would say that I'm not a true Christian. So if that's the case, what I'm seeing, it feels like they're trying to position themselves as another Christian denomination. And since they, since they see that they are the only true Christians, why, why are they not seeing, why are they not trying to honestly position themselves as something completely separate from, from us?

John Dehlin [00:46:33] I love, I love Dan Vogel's comments. Dan Vogel, he's a historian. He's, he's again being sarcastic. He says your creed is an abomination. He's actually quoting Joseph Smith. I think it's in section one of the Doctrine and Covenants where basically Joseph calls the Mormon Church something like the only true and living church with which the Lord is pleased and that all other churches creeds are an abomination unto the Lord.

Guest 4 [00:47:07] Yeah, that's actually in the first Vision account. So James, how would you, as an evangelical Christian that believes in a creed, accept Joseph Smith saying that Jesus told him all creeds are an abomination? That's one of the things, one of the things you're highlighting, right, is that that's like really offensive to people whose lives have been shaped by these creeds.

James [00:47:28] Yeah. Well, I look at, from my understanding, he looked at how there is countless denominations within Christianity, which I think that's what he was trying to resolve. But then you look at, I just perused through Wikipedia and saw I don't know how many denominations within Mormonism. So it's like, so you're trying to bring unity to the church, but now how many schisms have there been within Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Like almost hundreds, right? Hundreds. If not. Yeah, a thousand. Like a lot. Yeah. So James, my, my and Colby Camel, I want to know if y' all would disagree with me. The, if you went and, and walked up to your average day Mormon and said, hey, average day Mormon who's an adult. My name's James, I'm an evangelical. I heard somewhere where Mormons don't think, you know, other non Mormon Christians are legitimate Christians. I swear to you, 99% of Orthodox believing Mormons who go, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We love all Christians. All Christian churches are our brothers and sisters. We're all part of the body of Christ. Like, there's almost no Mormons that would say to your face, you weren't a legitimate Christian church.

Speaker O [00:48:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] So there's kind of this doublespeak because behind the scenes, we would all kind of laugh and kind of like elbow each other and say, well, the other baptisms don't count and they don't have any authority and they don't get the real Christ. And, you know, kind of like Brad Wilcox said the quiet stuff out loud, but only to a Mormon audience. So there's this double speak, and I can't speak for all orthodox Mormons. I'm sure there are more progressive Mormons that. That view evangelicals or Catholics as legitimate Christians, but. Colby, Cam, do you all have any responses to James's point?

Cam Reddish [00:49:30] Yeah, I. That's a really, really good point. Because when you. If you would have asked me as a member of the church, if you would have asked me the question that John just asked, I would have reacted that way. I didn't feel towards other Christians. And you might notice this with your friends that, that all they were bad or wrong about everything. And of course, Brad Wilcox makes sure that we do know that they're wrong and we believe that we're right. But it's this weird cognitive dissonance that we hold really well.

James [00:49:59] Yeah.

Cam Reddish [00:50:00] Members of the church where we're willing to say, oh, no, we love you. And the way that it was always phrased to us when we were growing up and taught is that they just don't have all the truth yet. It was this really hopeful view of like, well, they're just confused. But. But the reality is Mormons want it both ways. They want a seat at the table. They want to be this legitimate Christian sect of Christianity. They want to be Christians, but they also want to be the only right ones. They want to be the only Christians that have the true church. And it. It's kind of silly to think about, but my. My heart as a Mormon was always so loving and inclusive and thinking, well, I just kind of feel bad for those Christians. They just don't have the fullness of the gospel yet. That's what we would call it, the fullness of the Gospel or the Book of Mormon is, you know, the most correct book on earth. It can kind of fill in the gaps where you guys got it wrong, but I wouldn't emphasize the fact that you were wrong, which is kind of sad and I'm so sorry that we kind of give off that vibe.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] But, but also James, let me throw it back on you. Like, doesn't every main major Christian denomination think all the other guys are wrong and don't even. Aren't evangelical Christians known for being kind of strict or harsh, you know, being anti Catholic for example, and like gatekeeping in a way that they, they, they consider themselves to be the true Christians and that's why they're. The schisms exist or not.

James [00:51:32] So within my framework you've got the primary issues, which is like trinitarian theology. You've got. So that's. If you don't believe in the primary issues, you don't have a seat at the table, then there's secondary issues such as, like the mode of baptism, adult baptism or pedo baptism. Do you ascribe to the papacy that kind of stuff where we can still affirm your Christianity but maybe we wouldn't worship in the same ecclesial context. And then you've got, wait, so for you more open handed issues.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] So our Catholics.

James [00:52:12] That's kind of my approach.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] So are Catholics Christian for you, James?

James [00:52:16] I would say so. I don't affirm the papacy. I think it's a similar kind of question.

Speaker P [00:52:23] But

James [00:52:25] you know, it's, it's a little more complex since within Mormon doctrine you've got it very on the nose. We are the only true church and within Catholicism there I, I do see there is like whispers of that, but it's nowhere near as like on the nose, if you know what I mean.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] It used to be they used to execute you if you weren't Catholic. Right. They used to literally kill you.

James [00:52:56] Yeah, back in the good old days.

Guest 4 [00:52:59] Old sarcastically. James, I have a question for you. You mentioned that there are some primary, like, primary beliefs that you have to hold in your view to be a Christian. Do you mind sharing with those primary

James Calls In on the Trinity and Nicene Creed

James [00:53:12] beliefs are, I mean really adherence to the Nicene Creed is, is the biggest, you know, it's, Jesus is eternally pre existent. You know, he, Jesus was not created. He is one. The same essence as the Father. The Spirit proceeds from the Father. You know, the, the Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Spirit are, are three parts of the same God, the same being, but yet distinct. You know, the mysteries of Trinitarianism and then believing in the Gospel that it's, it's through what Christ did that we are saved. I mean really Outside of that, it's, it becomes more open. Like, yeah, sure, I've got my, my views on why, you know, I'm, I, I'm more in the Southern Baptist camp. So I've got reasons why I believe that we are the, the most faithful to the biblical narrative. But at the same time, I'm not going to look at someone who's maybe a pedo Baptist and say, well, you're not Christian. How could you be a Christian because you baptize babies.

John Dehlin [00:54:35] I have a couple quick responses. I don't know if you know this, James, but the Mormon Church used to mock the whole trinitarian concept. Not only has the Catholic Church been viewed by the Mormon Church historically as like literally called the Great horror of all the Earth, the great and abominable Church, which I don't think in the early 19th century that was unique to the Mormon Church, but we carried that well into the 20th and even early 21st century believing the Catholic Church was a whore of all the earth and the great and abominable church and that infant baptism was corrupt. But Mormons used to make fun of this idea and probably still do that God and Jesus are 2 but 1, but 2 but 1 but 3 but 1 but Jesus is in the flesh but then goes up and then where does he go when he's up in heaven is emerged like an amoeba back with God. Like I was taught that, that trinitarian thing, that, that whole Council of Nicaea thing was just some dudes in a committee making stuff up. But that what they, what they made up was kind of ridiculous. So Mormons would kind of view the Castle of Nicaea as kind of silly and wrong. I don't know if that, how that strikes with you, but that's kind of, even in the temple ceremony, the old Mormon temple ceremony used to make fun of the traditional Nicene Creed trinitarian views of God. Did you know that, James?

James [00:56:04] No, I don't. I will say my very first time visiting with an LDS missionary, they started kind of just talking bad about the, the Nicene Council and just how kind of irreverent it was. And it was clearly a talking point that they had just kind of been raised to, to, you know, oh yeah, Nicaea. Yeah, it's just a bunch of malarkey. It's like, I don't know if you understand just how seminal that Nicaea actually was, but I mean, Nicaea was so far away from us. And so, you know, would be a pretty simple thing to just say, oh yeah, forget Nicaea believe me, you know, forget all of the rest of Christian history and follow me.

Speaker J [00:57:00] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:57:01] Can I ask a question, James? Because I think one of the things I love about this series is I want to understand other people's worldviews more. And I didn't grow up an evangelical Christian. I'll never have the chance to. Did you grow up evangelical or.

James [00:57:15] Yes, Yes, I did.

Guest 4 [00:57:18] So one of the things I thought that the Book of Mormon was adding value to my life as, because I would have viewed myself as a Christian when I was Mormon. And one of the things I felt like we were taught is that the Book of Mormon taught us plain and precious things that were removed from the gospel as a result of what we believed was the great apostasy. Right. That basically the original church fell in to apostasy and we lost these, these precious things. And that's why we needed the Book of Mormon restore these things. One of the things that I believe was a unique Mormon belief is the Book of Mormon teaches that Christ not only suffered for our sins, but he suffered for our infirmities and for our sicknesses. And that that was something that gave me a lot of comfort as a Mormon feeling like, hey, Christ knows me in this much more personal way. Is that. I guess what I'm asking you is from an evangelical point of view, was that truly a Mormon unique belief, that thing that I believed in, or is that something that's really common amongst evangelicals?

James [00:58:22] Evangelicalism is incredibly splintered. It's, it's all over the place. I mean the, the Jesus that I grew up with was, well, this is the reason why you don't drink, cuss, smoke or chew and you don't hang out with girls who do is because of Jesus. You got me. And I am very, very grateful. I discovered a, a church that really believes the gospel on a much deeper level. But yes, I mean we would believe that, yeah, Christ, he, he died on the cross not just for our sins, but so that he could bring heaven to earth and like call a people to himself and call us into this people that he is restoring. And so yeah, there's a very intensely personal aspect to it. You know, I think that what I was kind of hearing something about, he also died for our infirmities.

Guest 4 [00:59:33] Like are, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not died for them. But I think the, the scripture in the Book of Mormon I'm thinking of basically says he suffered all of these things so that he would know how to, to sucker us according to our infirmities is the phrase that I'M remembering. And so I always viewed that as a unique Mormon belief. And it sounds like what I'm hearing from you is that that's, that's not really a unique Mormon belief at all. That there is this personal aspect of the atonement in most Christian communities.

James [01:00:02] Yeah, he was tempted, as we are. So, yeah, I mean, there is a belief in a personal, personal relationship with Jesus is very, very overused. But I mean, there is definitely that understanding that Jesus knows us and is near to us in, in all aspect. On. Sorry. In all aspects of, of life, good and bad. Now, obviously there's a Mormon flair to it that I'm not very familiar with that, you know, you grew up with. But, but you know, again, the Jesus I grew up with was, I hate to say it, the God who was looking down on 14 year old me doing what a 14 year old boy does best and scowling at me, you know, and then the Jesus that I grew to know later on in life was much different, much more graceful.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] Yeah. No matter what Jesus you believe in, no matter what how obscure your Christian cult is or how massive, Jesus somehow always cares about your masturbation. That's something, that's something that's more common than the Nicene Creed. It's more uniting of all Christian faiths than anything. James, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you on Mormon Stories Live. Thanks for listening. I hope you'll join us again.

James [01:01:37] Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I've been listening to this show for a little while and it's been, it's been really helpful, very insightful. I'm very appreciative for what you're doing, so thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Thanks, James. We hope to have you back soon.

James [01:01:52] All right, take care.

John Dehlin [01:01:53] Take care.

James [01:01:54] All right, bye.

Lauren the Ex-Christian Calls In

John Dehlin [01:01:55] All right, let's go ahead and get Lauren, the ex Christian. Lauren, I don't know if you could turn your camera 90 degrees and we can get a fuller shot, but either way, Lauren, the ex Christian. Oh, your screen might be locked, so you may need to turn it back. Lauren, the ex Christian, welcome to Mormon Stories Live. Good to have you.

Speaker Q [01:02:14] Hi.

Cam Reddish [01:02:15] Hi.

Guest 3 [01:02:16] I'm so glad to meet you, John. I have been listening to your show for over a year.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] Oh, fun.

Guest 3 [01:02:22] So excited.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] So where are you calling from?

Guest 3 [01:02:25] Oh, St. Louis.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Oh, fun. Okay. Missouri. Represent. Yeah, yeah. Well, what's your. Oh, go ahead.

Guest 3 [01:02:34] Oh, I was just gonna say I did like your poll. I did take that poll, part of that poll that you showed earlier, but I was kind of upset that you didn't have a box for I don't know or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] You know why? Right? You know why, right?

Guest 3 [01:02:49] Why?

John Dehlin [01:02:49] It only allows four options.

Guest 3 [01:02:51] Ah, okay.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] YouTube polls only allow four options.

Guest 3 [01:02:55] Ah, gotcha.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] So anyway, sorry about that.

Guest 3 [01:02:58] Oh, no, it's. Oh, I don't care because I just have a bold statement that I think Mormons are kind of Christian. Just kinda. It's like, it's like. Yeah, I don't know how to describe it just because like I'm an ex Christian and then I just, I feel like there's parts of it that's real and parts of not. So I just have the bold claim of kinda.

Cam Reddish [01:03:23] Okay, like if when you are still Christian because you said you're an ex Christian.

Speaker M [01:03:29] Yeah.

Cam Reddish [01:03:30] You are Christian, would you have described Mormons as kind of Christian or.

Guest 3 [01:03:34] Yeah, well, I guess so. Because. I guess so because at that point I really did not know much of the doctrine then. And so I was always kind of progressive anyway. But like, so I didn't. I was kind of inclusive and I also, I already felt like Mormons got a bad rap, at least where I'm from. So I was a little more sensitive to people calling them not Christian and not being a dick, you know. So

Cam Reddish [01:04:09] what made you, what made you lose your faith in Christianity?

Guest 3 [01:04:14] Oh, lots of things.

Cam Reddish [01:04:17] Like a lot of things coming together.

Guest 3 [01:04:20] Historical records,

Speaker Q [01:04:24] gay,

Guest 3 [01:04:27] horrible. Just. I mean, the problem of evil. The problem of evil is really hard for me to take with Christianity. It's just not for me. But you know, but I love, I don't know, but I love learning about religion. So like I even put my comment that I feel like Mormons have a similar relationship to Christians that Drews have to Islam. It's a subsect of Shia Islam where there is another imam and that's already come. So theologically it's like, it's kinda, it's kind of similar. It's kind of not similar, you know.

Cam Reddish [01:05:13] Yeah, it is, it is kind of. We use all the same terms and everything. So. Yeah, I understand that for sure.

Guest 3 [01:05:20] I mean, the one thing that I could tell you that's, that's like weird for me as a Mormon for, as a previous Christian is just not having the same textbook because whether you work, if, whether you've, whether you go to a Catholic church, a Protestant church, you're going to still use basically the same Bible except for a couple of books with the Catholics. You know, the Catholics, they got the Apocrypha. But you, I mean, I would not If I go to a Mormon service, I'm just not gonna. I would have no idea what these characters mean. Book of Mormon. What? I. I don't even know how to relate to that. That's another thing that's just so used

Cam Reddish [01:06:03] a lot of scripture language, which helps, I think, since he was familiar with the Bible. And so there's a lot of similar scripture language. But I definitely understand that too, because he adds stuff. I mean, in the 1800s, there were tons of different churches kind of popping up all over the place, and people wanted answers. People didn't have access to information like we do today. Like, it's almost like went really fast from no information. And so we needed authorities to, like, tell us how to think and what our worldview should be. And now we have, like, too much information that we're all paralyzed, not knowing what, like, how to construct our own worldview. Yeah, it's, like, really kind of interesting to think about.

Guest 3 [01:06:45] Yeah. Or also taking communion of bread and water. Bread and water? No, guys like, Hoot. What are you talking about?

Cam Reddish [01:06:54] Like, so Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] Mormons used to drink wine. And the rumor is, is that what. That they were paranoid that they were going to get poisoned, and that poison, the taste of poison, could be hid in the strong flavor of wine. So they needed to change the sacrament from wine to water to prevent the risk of poisoning.

Cam Reddish [01:07:22] That's what I'm handbook where you can. You can use wine if you make it yourself.

Guest 3 [01:07:26] Oh, I'm back. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] Go ahead, Kimmy.

Cam Reddish [01:07:30] Oh, I see it. I think it's still in the handbook or somewhere. They said you can use wine if you make it yourself.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] Is that pure the great.

Guest 4 [01:07:39] That's in doctrine and covenants 89.

Speaker I [01:07:41] Oh, okay.

Cam Reddish [01:07:42] Yeah, in Doctrine and Covenants.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Well, Lauren, it's great to have you. Thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories Live. And thanks for listening. We may have lost Lauren's ability to hear us.

Guest 4 [01:07:57] Thanks, Lauren.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] All right, Lauren, join us again soon. Lauren. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next caller. We've got Cameron.

Ex-Mormon Turned Evangelical Calls In

Speaker I [01:08:09] Hello.

Cam Reddish [01:08:09] Here. I can turn mine sideways too.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] Hey, Cameron, where are you. Where are you joining us from?

Cam Reddish [01:08:14] St. Louis as well, actually. What I know isn't that crazy?

John Dehlin [01:08:17] What's in the water in St. Louis?

Cam Reddish [01:08:19] I don't know. It's close to Nauvoo, you know, and

John Dehlin [01:08:23] are you a mo. Oh, and I'll just tell our viewers and listeners we have a few lines opened up. So if you want to join us, find the. The link that's Pinned at the top of YouTube and you can click in and join. Make sure and enable your video and audio and type into the prompt what your question is going to be so we can know what you want to ask. But we do have a couple of lines open. Okay. So Cameron, you were saying, are you a Mormon, ex Mormon, or a never Mormon?

Cam Reddish [01:08:51] So I'm an ex Mormon turned evangelical.

Speaker O [01:08:54] Whoa.

Guest 4 [01:08:55] Whoa.

Cam Reddish [01:08:57] And so this question. Yeah, so this question means a lot because this. This question alone is pretty much the reason I left Mormonism is if our Mormons Christians. I know you said we were going to get into, like, a story, but I guess it kind of came up. I was a Mormon and I met my now wife who grew up as a evangelical, and we first met. We're both like. She's like, I'm a Christian. I want to date a Christian. I'm like, you're in luck because I'm a Christian.

John Dehlin [01:09:25] Did you serve a mission? Cameron, did you serve a mission?

Cam Reddish [01:09:28] I did not. And that's also another reason why I left.

John Dehlin [01:09:30] Okay. Okay.

Cam Reddish [01:09:31] It was around that time, I was about 18, going on 19, met my now. My now wife, and I was like, we're both Christians. This is great. We can date. And then she's like, learning more about Mormonism, and then she's like, you're not a Christian. And then I did my more research and eventually left.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Okay, so, okay, you were going to say what the big thing was.

Cam Reddish [01:09:51] Well, the big thing is, I guess. Well, the question was, are Mormons Christian? I came to conclusion.

Guest 3 [01:09:56] No.

Cam Reddish [01:09:57] And the. I mean, the biggest reason why was just because of who God is and who Mormon claims to be God. It was really the Trinity that was the biggest thing that got me to leave. I mean, there's obviously a lot of things, but that was kind of the. The biggest reason.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] Okay.

Cam Reddish [01:10:16] Personal relationship with Christ?

Cam Reddish [01:10:19] No, like who Christ is. God's character, like the Godhead versus the Trinity.

Cam Reddish [01:10:23] Yeah, but does it feel different to you now?

Cam Reddish [01:10:26] Oh, yeah, it is. Literally. There's no comparison. There is. You know, and that's why this question, like, resonates so much with me, because I know that Mormons right now want to be Christians so bad, but it's like having being on both sides, it's like they are just so different. My relationship with God is different. My understanding of God is different. Like, there's no. I really irks me whenever Mormons are like, oh, no, we agree on 99. It irks me because I'm like, that is just so untrue.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] Okay.

Cam Reddish [01:10:51] I Can't honestly think of anything.

Speaker R [01:10:52] So.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] Cam. Cameron, let me, let me, let me. I want. I want you to help me understand this. I genuinely don't understand, so.

Cam Reddish [01:10:58] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] So as a Mormon, I'm just going to channel my Mormon brain. As a Mormon, when I. When I pray, I pray to God. I pray to Heavenly Father. I ask him to forgive me for my sins. I ask him to help bless my food. I ask him to help me on my day, to help me make important decisions when I'm sad. I talk to him and he listens. And he sends the Holy Ghost to help me understand or to help me feel better. And Jesus. I believe in Jesus. He died on the cross for me. He was resurrected. Through him, I'll get resurrected. How is any of that, like, materially different than the way you conceive of God and Jesus in a way that's, like, practical and meaningful to you? What if the way I just represented my belief in God and Jesus, how is that any different from your experience with God, Jesus? How is mine inferior? How is mine inferior?

Cam Reddish [01:12:00] Yeah, that's a good question. And obviously I prayed as a Mormon and I pray now as a Christian. I would say Christian. I know it might trigger some Mormons, but I. I would say I converted Christianity. So the problem, I mean, the obvious reason is just that it's a different God. I mean, it's a different God, it's a different Jesus. You know, I would say it's not a biblical Jesus. It's not a biblical God. It's. I try and be as nice as possible, but I would say it's a fabricated God. And so even though it's. We're using the same language and we're using the same terms to describe our relationship, the problem is the other person on the other side of the relationship is not the same person.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] So why is. Why is your God not fabricated? But my God is. And I'm. I'm not being argumentative.

Cam Reddish [01:12:44] Yeah, no, because I'm not even. I love these questions.

Speaker R [01:12:46] I'm not really.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] I'm not even really representing my beliefs necessarily. But seriously, what. What is the basis for you saying your God's not fabricated, your now God is not fabricated, but a minor, a Mormon God is. What's the basis?

Cam Reddish [01:13:00] Great question. So I would say it's because mine is biblical. I mean, I think if you were to take, you know, the history of the Christian Church, I know we talked about creeds here and the early organization of the Christian Church and all, you know, 2,000 years of history, and documents and the Bible, its credibility. You know, using the Bible with context. Like, I just would say that Christians believe in the true biblical God is where why I use the word fabricated for Mormons is because it's more of Joseph Smith's God that he kind of created.

Speaker J [01:13:32] Right.

Cam Reddish [01:13:32] Like, he. He's the one who brought the Godhead into conversation and kind of took the biblical God and changed it. So.

Guest 4 [01:13:39] Cameron, can I ask you a question?

Cam Reddish [01:13:41] Yeah, yeah.

Cam Reddish [01:13:41] What's up?

Guest 4 [01:13:42] So when I. So I think a lot of people go through this phase where they deconstruct Mormonism, specific stuff first. And then they start maybe, you know, they listen to some Bart Ehrman. They read a book by Bart Ehrman. Maybe they listen to some Dan McClellan. Right. And they start to realize, like, maybe I can't take the Bible as literally as I did. One time in my life, I had an experience when I was, you know, had basically fully deconstructed Mormonism, and I started kind of reevaluating how I felt about Christianity. I had this experience where I was looking at the reliability of biblical manuscripts. And I don't know about you, but one of the stories that resonated the most with me about the Christ that I believed in as a Mormon is the story in John 8 where Jesus basically saves the woman who's taken in adultery. He writes in, you know, he is without sin among you cast the first stone. To me, that was a story that really nailed the character of the person I believed Jesus to be. When I was going through my deconstruction of Christianity, I had to engage with the fact that manuscripts show the evolution of manuscripts show that that was a later creation or a later addition that's only found not in the earliest version of manuscripts, but in the later version of manuscripts. And I don't want to necessarily put you on the spot to answer that particular question, but I think I'm just asking what is something to try and help get back to John's question. What is something that's specific about this biblical Jesus that's different from the Jesus in the Book of Mormon? Maybe what's something that, like, can't be not true for you without Jesus, like, not being what you believe he is to be? Does that make sense?

Cam Reddish [01:15:33] Things I think I had it in at the end. Maybe I lost it, but I think this will answer it. And I think it's just that Jesus is God. I mean, it really is just the trinity. Like, if Jesus isn't God, then I just feel like your relationship with Jesus and God is a completely different one.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] But can I. Can I ask you a question then, Cameron?

James [01:15:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] And I know I'm not trying to be argumentative or interrupt, but.

Cam Reddish [01:15:55] Yeah, no, you're fine.

John Dehlin [01:15:56] Literally in the bi. Like, when you tell me again, I'm not. I was kicked out of the church. So this is funny that I'm arguing the Mormon point of view, but. But like, when you said my. My Mormon God isn't biblical, I'm like, why? I'm really. I'm really confused. And let me just continue. I'm confused. Like, Jesus in his down days prayed to God. So, yeah, like, I was always like, when. When my seminary teacher was making fun of mainstream Christians, they're like, what was Jesus praying to himself? No, Jesus was struggling and he prayed to God. And just like Jesus prayed to his heavenly father, Mormons pray to their heavenly father. How the freak is that not biblical? We're literally praying to our heavenly Father just like Jesus did. And I know I sound animated. I'm not angry. I just. This is my John animation. I'm not angry. But can you see that it's very biblical. It's even Christlike to pray to your father in heaven.

Cam Reddish [01:17:08] Yeah. And I get this point all the time. And I think the Trinity is complicated, and I think it's actually a Mormon quality to try and humanize God in a sense of, like, not humanize them like Jesus, but I mean, like, humanize them in, like, how can a human brain understand God? And so I think you. I think that's like a trap that Mormons fall into. Like, I. My human brain has to work to understand God, and God works in my physical realm. And that's all my understanding. The Trinity is complex. I'm not saying it's simple, but Jesus is fully God and fully man in the Bible, and so I think he absolutely praise to God, but he is still God. I think he humbled himself in his. In is the human re, like incarnation of God. And so. And also, what about all the biblical texts of Jesus claiming to be God? Right? Like, y'.

Speaker R [01:18:01] All.

Cam Reddish [01:18:02] Him claiming. Saying that he's Yahweh, which is the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament. Whenever he's asked, who are you? In. In the. In the Gospels of John, you know, when he said, you know, they say, hey, show us the Father. And what does he say? You're looking at him. Like, there are so many points in the Bible where Jesus is saying that he's God and that's why he's crucified. Like, I think Mormons miss this point of like, why is Jesus crucified? Is it because, you know, I feel like in the Mormon view it's like, why would he have been crucified? If you read the Bible, he's crucified because he claims to be the human, like God walking the Messiah. And that's why it's so blasphemous to the Jews, because they say you can't be God. Like that is so blasphemous, we're going to kill you for it.

John Dehlin [01:18:43] So I don't, I don't believe in arguing or being argumentative, but my response to that is from, from Bart Ehrman's work to, to kind of reference what Colby was saying. If you line up the, the gospels chronologically, didn't Jesus's claims to be God appear later? And in the earliest Gospel he wasn't claiming to be God? Like, are you, are you aware that like the later the gospel, the more fantastical the claims about Jesus are? And have you reconciled that with your own beliefs about the Bible? Colby, were you going to say something else in response?

Guest 4 [01:19:25] Well, I was just going to add to that just further beyond just what Jesus claimed about himself, if you look at the Gospel of Mark, which scholars consensus agree was written first, Jesus is recognized first as the son of God by the author of Mark at his baptism. Right? And then the Gospels of Matthew and Luke back it up further. And then the Gospel of John backs it up even further and says like, before the world was he, you know, the light? He was the light and the, the way and the truth. And so I think that's what you're referencing there. John is basically, we can see this. At least if you take that view, you can see this like evolution of Christology over time through those manuscripts. And obviously don't want to put Cameron too much on the spot, but I think as we're trying to kind of understand, I think my other follow up question is, you know, when Christ interacts directly with the Father at the baptism or when he's on the cross and says, you know, into my hands I commend my, into thy hands I commend my spirit. Is that like, can you just help me understand in your view, like, what is that doing? Is it for the people who are there or does it serve some function in the different, like forms of the Godhead?

Cam Reddish [01:20:38] I mean, no, I would just say that, like I said, Jesus is still fully human. He's fully God and fully human. And so he's still worshiping God. He's still talking to God, you know, all those things. I don't see how that can be an inconsistency or contradiction of the Trinity, because again, I think you're trying to put, like, a earthly physical or physics, like, within God's power. Like, it doesn't really make sense because he works outside.

Guest 4 [01:21:06] Let me ask the very specific question. So, like, intercessory prayer, right? John 17.

Guest 3 [01:21:10] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:21:11] He's praying and is. So, like, is he interacting with, like, both sides of the coin? Is that how the Trinity works? I'm not asking to try and find a contradiction. I'm actually asking because I've tried to make sense of the Trinity and I honestly don't understand it. And maybe, kind of like you said, maybe John and I are just so raised in that Mormon worldview that we try and make this so literal and wrap our human brains around it that we can't understand it. But, like, with that specific example. So when he's praying and receiving comfort or whatever through the prayer, how exactly mechanically is that working in the Trinity model?

Cam Reddish [01:21:51] I mean, I feel like I've answered this.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Yeah, he did. He said that infinite finite minds. I'm going to quote Cameron. Finite minds can't understand God, Colby, so stop trying.

Cam Reddish [01:22:01] Well, I don't use this like it's the end of an argument, but I mean, it's kind of true. I mean, it took me. It's not like I went to bed one day and I woke up and I was like, oh, I get the Trinity. You know, it took probably a good two years of like, deconstructing my Mormonism and I guess constructing Christianity kind of to really, like, reconcile with it.

Guest 4 [01:22:21] Yeah, that completely makes sense. And I feel really rude because I completely sidelined John's question about evolution.

The Gospels, the Trinity, and the Nature of God

Cam Reddish [01:22:27] I did want to ask something quick, Colby, like, were you saying earlier with the earlier gospels in the Bible talking about the Son of God or that Jesus being the Son of God, are you saying, like, that is a reference to Jesus not being God?

Guest 4 [01:22:45] No, I think what I'm saying is, I mean, the big takeaway I've had from, you know, whether it's Dan McClellan or Bart Ehrman's work, is that for me, when I hear people say, well, the Bible says the Bible is a collection of books, and those authors of those books, at least that's my view.

Speaker F [01:23:02] Right.

Guest 4 [01:23:02] I don't believe it was God breathed because I don't believe that's a thing that exists. Like, while I believe there can be inspiration behind books, I think that the authors of the Gospels in particular, had a particular thing they were writing towards. And I would. I think I could make a pretty strong case for that where, you know, you have very specifically Matthew saying, like, and thus it was written and thus it was fulfilled that, you know, such and such prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled. Right.

Speaker Q [01:23:31] The.

Guest 4 [01:23:31] The classic one I think of. And thus it was fulfilled when it says that he shall be called the Nazarene because he was, you know, lived around Nazareth. And so I guess what I'm. What I'm looking at is I view that evolution of the Christology in the Gospels as basically signaling to me how I need to treat the reliability of any of the claims in the Gospels specifically about something that is, like, like you've said so difficult and unknowable. And I guess that's. That actually is a great question to me because it ties me back to the question of John's that I interrupted, which was like, how do you, how do you grapple with that? Or how do you grapple with, you know, even potential inconsistencies in different sections of the New Testament?

Cam Reddish [01:24:17] Yeah, that's obviously a good question. The thing is, is like, one of the things I think that's grown my faith as a Christian now is the historical evidence of the Bible. Like, I feel like you're kind of using it as, like, there's problems, but especially coming from Mormonism where, right. They have the. Was third, fourth article of faith that the. It's like, oh, we believe in the Bible to be the word of God as far as it's interpreted correctly. It's like, my whole worldview of the Bible is completely 180. Like, before it was this book that was misinterpreted and mishandled and there was apostasy with it, and we have no idea what the truth is in it to, like, understanding the thousands of manuscripts and the Septuagint and the way that we have the Bible today to be, for me, that my view of the Bible being so much more objective and logical than it ever was as a Mormon by far. And so that's something that's increased, I would say my faith in Christianity then put holes in it or brought up questions of inconsistencies or contradictions. Like, I mean, I'm obviously not a theologian. I didn't go to school for, you know, biblical, you know, scholars or anything. But I don't. I don't see a whole lot of massive inconsistencies or contradictions that can't either be explained or with proper context and historical understanding of the Bible line up.

Guest 4 [01:25:35] Well, yeah, I think that's, I think that's a, I mean, that's, I might not agree with that answer, but I thank you for the exchange and for the, the really honest answer. I also wanted to just observe as we let you go, Cameron, that I noticed the triforce on your shirt and I am a huge, a huge fan of the Legend of Zelda. You can just ask our firstborn link.

Cam Reddish [01:25:55] Oh, wow.

Guest 4 [01:25:56] Thank you for calling in, Cameron.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] Thanks for joining us. Hope you'll join us again.

Cam Reddish [01:26:00] Yeah, appreciate it. Have a good night, guys.

John Dehlin [01:26:02] All right, thanks, Cameron. I'll just say really quickly before we bring out our next guest, that I'm not persuaded. I think what Joseph Smith was trying to do was make God less confusing because I don't even buy the argument that because some committee of men in 300 AD decided how to make sense of God and Jesus and the God versus man, son versus Father kind of thing because they decided to come up with three. But one, but three or whatever, that's not persuasive. It doesn't make any sense. And just because it's the one that persisted or that it was one of the earliest interpretations, that's not good enough for me. And when he says, you know, it's a mystery, stop trying for me, that's a bug, not a feature. Right? That, that God's so mysterious that we shouldn't try to really understand. And it also is a persuasive to say, oh, I've been studying it for 10 years and so now I've got a deeper understanding, but then you can't really explain it. And then you say, well, it's, it's too complex for the human mind to understand. Like, I actually, I actually think Joseph, I actually prefer Joseph Smith's version of God and Jesus versus the, the traditional mainstream Christian version if I have to choose. And I really am glad Benjamin came on, but I, I, I wish I could find a Christian to help me like this explanation, but I, I'm not persuaded. I don't know. Kami, what do you think?

Cam Reddish [01:27:41] Yeah, when you said that, it was really interesting listening to Cameron and how he described how it feels more knowable to him. Like the Bible feels more secure to him. Like understandable to him based or. Yeah, when, when compared to Mormonism is what I'm trying to say. But it's because back then Joseph Smith became this sole authority and he added into this new religion of Mormonism that we now have new prophets and continuing revelation and they could always set the record straight. And so you're right in the sense that it gave all of us humans this assurance that someone will tell me how to make sense of this. It's obviously, you can make sense of it either way. I truly believed that they were three distinct beings using Bible scriptures. I would use Bible scriptures to explain that to people. And so you can take different scriptures and try and make it make sense. And obviously from the Christian traditional way, you can take scriptures and, and make this trinity make sense. But it also makes sense to me that it feels to different people like Mormonism is more clear and understandable if you truly believe in it and believe that there's an authority who can kind of set the record straight with any question you have. And then also to have Christianity traditionally make more sense in this day and age, because there are so many different ideas out there. But if you can just be like, okay, it's just the Bible. You can't add anything to it. You can't take away from it. I'm just going to figure it out with me and God and the Bible. And I can see how you could kind of like sit down and make it make sense to you using the Bible. And so really, the basics is we all need to have a story that makes sense. We all want this purpose. Like it's. We crave it as humans. We kind of need it. That's why religion is such a big deal. It. It is this kind of framework for us.

Speaker I [01:29:40] Have.

Cam Reddish [01:29:40] Have a story that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:29:42] Yeah. All right, well, this is great. Let's. Let's try and spend a little bit less time with each caller. And I'm calling myself out there because we've got a lot of people that have been waiting very patiently.

Cam Reddish [01:29:53] So.

Speaker J [01:29:54] But.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] But I'm loving this conversation. I'm loving our panel. I'm loving our caller so far. Mike, you've been very patient. Tell us where you're calling from, Mike, and whether you're a mo, an ex mo or a Nevermo.

Guest [01:30:07] Thanks, John. I love that you guys are doing this format. Thanks for having me on. I am a Nevermo. I would say a never, ever mo. Born again Christian. I've had. I'm retired military and I've had a lot of co workers who are Mormon fascinated by the topic. I've dove into all the different podcasts and my thoughts briefly on this topic. It boils down, as you've been discussing, so I hate to repeat anything, but to the nature of God, if the nature of God is different and it's a different Jesus, meaning the Mormon Jesus was an intelligence at the time of creation and not the Creator and not through whom all things were created, then we fundamentally believe in a different Jesus, as unfortunate as that may be because it hasn't been mentioned. But Christians want Mormons to believe in the same Jesus, probably the same way Mormons would like you to believe Christians to believe in their version of it, too. But everything comes back to the nature of God. And if you don't believe in a tri. The sort of the Nicene Creed, the tri, The Trinity nature of God, then unfortunately it's a different Jesus. And. And through that Jesus, one cannot be saved and they're not Christian. Now, meanwhile, it's nice to study the DNA of American Indians and tapers and all that and get sidetracked. But it really should come back down to who is God, who's the nature of God, and what's in my final point, what's interesting is if, if I was a detective looking for fingerprints. Tell me if I'm wrong. I know you have a resident historian in your chat, Dan, but the fingerprints on Mormonism, and I'll cite the DNC original version, where the Articles of Faith, or the Lectures on Faith, whatever they were titled, were later removed by historian turned prophet. Correct me if I get it wrong. Yeah, I forget the name, but Joseph Fielding Smith.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] Joseph Fielding Smith.

Guest [01:32:07] Yeah, Fielding Smith. You know, they re. You know, correct me if I'm wrong, but they in part removed that from the DNC because they couldn't unmask the fingerprints of the Trinity in that. And I would argue that there's other fingerprints in Mormonism, like the accounts of the first Vision, that have the fingerprints of the Trinity in it. And I probably can't go too deep since I'm not more like the Book

John Dehlin [01:32:32] of Mormon, Joseph Smith's original 1832 account of the first. First vision, the Book of Mormon, the Lectures on Faith. They are, you know, some say it's modalist, some say it's trinitarian, but certainly it's different than the. Than the Nauvoo, you know, Joseph Smith's Navu. Conceptions of God and Jesus. That's for sure true. Mike, really quickly, like, I was trying to think just in response to your. Like, I was trying to think, like, let's say some man came into our lives and made a difference, but he didn't really totally tell us where he was from. And someone thought he was from Texas, but somebody else thought he was from Alabama. Would it matter? Like, in another way to say that is like. Like, isn't God so mysterious that Mormons and traditional Christians can't wrap their brains around it? So to argue about, well, no, it's three by one, but one, but three, no, he's separate, but he has a God. Like, isn't that all just kind of. None of us really get it? And so to argue and to say my nonsensical God is. Is. Is superior to your nonsensical God, is that kind of a red herring? A little bit.

Guest [01:33:42] When I. Well, regarding the character of God, I would say yes and no. I understand what you're saying, and I certainly would. I would have that same sentiment if we were having a conversation about the afterlife. What is hell look like? Is it the fire and brimstone that's been painted in old Greek, whatever myths? Or is it what Scripture says? And you start debating that and, and eventually you'll reach a conclusion that what does it matter? We're arguing about something that doesn't matter. But when it comes to the nature of God and who he is and what he's capable of, I, I don't. I just. I don't see that as trivial. I see that as more foundational. I think that's where the 65% on your poll who say, I mean, I know it's an imperfect poll. You've addressed that. The 35% that voted the other direction were probably Mormons, but in my mind, Christians and, And certainly those who can digest and trip on and try to articulate the nature of the Trinity, I think would inevitably have to answer that Mormons are not Christian because it's a different nature. So.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] Well, Mike, what I want to say is I can feel how sacred and important God is to you, and I want to give you all the respect in the world because we on Mormon stories value people's sacred paths and experiences, regardless of how unified or different they are. I could tell your faith means a lot to you. It means a lot to us that you would call in. And I really am glad you shared your perspectives with us. And I hope you know that even though we're asking these questions and debating this stuff, we, we hold sacred with deep respect our. Our colors and viewers, religious beliefs and perspectives.

Guest [01:35:35] I, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Great program.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] All right, thanks, Mike.

Guest 4 [01:35:40] I just wanna. I just wanna say something quickly about that, John, because I love that comment you just made. And I think that's where I don't care if people are Mormon, Christian, atheist, whatever religion they choose to be. What I care about is how people treat other people. That is the one thing that's recorded in the New Testament, you know, by their fruits, you shall know them. That, I really do believe is like a truism of the universe that you can tell someone's character by the way they treat other people, and especially people who are on the edges or are marginalized by other people in society. So if people use Christianity as their vessel to do that, and most Christians I know in my life do, they have all my respect in the world, too.

Speaker J [01:36:19] Amen.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] Amen. All right. Well, Mary, you've been very patient. Mary, tell us where you're calling from and whether you're a mo exmo or Nevermo.

Mary, Ned, and Rapid-Round Callers Weigh In

Speaker Q [01:36:32] Well, number one, Patience is my middle name. Literally. People who know me will think that's really funny because it literally is. But yeah, so I'm calling in from Colorado. It's a little bit chilly up here, even though it's May. But yeah, so I am a nevermo. Grew up in the Southern Baptist south. And I don't know how much you know about that, but that also can be a very high control situation. And so learning more about Mormonism has, in a way, helped me deconstruct some of that as well, as I've moved into an area where Christianity is a little more friendly.

John Dehlin [01:37:16] Beautiful. Glad you joined us. What's your, what's your comment or question?

Speaker Q [01:37:20] So, yeah, just a little bit about me. So I have an undergrad in Bible. I'm also a nerd, so I devour that kind of stuff all the time. And so I'm also pursuing my graduate degree in chaplaincy, but I haven't started that yet. And just so as I was kind of listening to your comments, I did kind of agree with maybe the last two callers. For me, the answer to the question, are Mormons Christians? It's not necessarily about apologetics. Like, is Christianity true? Is Mormonism true? That's a complete, completely different question. But mainly, are they the same? And I would really say they're not. I think that we've already gotten into the person of Jesus, which I can answer maybe some questions about if you had them. But to me, it's also about the plan of salvation. And that is the biggest thing, because in Christianity, from the first 70 years of the church onward until around roundabout before Joseph Smith, the plan of salvation is you put your faith in Jesus, you receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit transform you, you are forgiven of your sins, and then you are saved. The problem with Mormonism is that that may Be the first step. You receive the forgiveness. Correct me if I'm wrong with my understanding, but you receive forgiveness for your sins when you are baptized, Is that correct?

John Dehlin [01:38:59] At first, but then you sin again.

Speaker Q [01:39:02] Then you said again the rituals later where the end goal is that you become a God. You are becoming like your heavenly Father.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] Yeah.

Speaker Q [01:39:11] Through these rituals that you do by completing the path of salvation.

John Dehlin [01:39:15] Yep.

Speaker Q [01:39:16] That's the part that's fundamentally not Christian.

John Dehlin [01:39:18] But isn't that super cool? Mary, don't you want to become a goddess someday?

Speaker Q [01:39:22] Well, as a woman, I, I don't know if the idea of being pregnant for forever really appeals to me, but that's just me.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] But what about, like, having all power and all knowledge and, you know, maybe

Speaker Q [01:39:37] it would be cool, but they're not the same.

Cam Reddish [01:39:41] And can I ask you what you're. I mean, I'm assuming that you're Christian, that you identify as Christian. So what would you say? So Mormons are, are doing this life so we can become gods. What would you say that Christians are looking forward to? What are you becoming? Are you just enjoying a, a paradise after this?

Speaker Q [01:40:03] So the end goal, and, and I do know that most Christians, they do not have a very fleshed out cosmology. I've studied this, and so I do. So the end goal for me as a Christian and an evangelical Christian who studied this is the end, where God is going to return and restore his kingdom on earth. The end goal for me as a Christian is that I believe that the Messiah is going to return and establish God's kingdom on earth. And so if you go to Isaiah 2, it paints the picture of a redeemed world in a redeemed society where God's people get to dwell with him forever in a redeemed world.

John Dehlin [01:40:48] So, Mary, I know this is probably a disrespectful question, but isn't that kind of boring? Like, just like, I know it's often mocked as like, playing harps or singing in a choir forever and ever and ever, but, like, if we wanted to give Joseph Smith some credit, at least he's trying to make eternity more interesting. Because to just sit at God's feet and worship him literally forever, I just, I can't. Like, almost. That's almost like, makes God this narcissist that just wants us all literally at his feet, worshiping him until the end of time. Like, I, I think that would get old. And it seems. Why were we even created if we're just gonna sit and worship at God's feet like slaves Basically, yeah.

Speaker Q [01:41:40] So I definitely think that that is part of it. The fact that we will eternally have a relationship with God. And because the person of God is so majestic and so wonderful. Right. That would be a really good thing if you're a Christian and that's what you're into. Like, as a Christian, I'm someone who's chosen that, and that will be my reward in the end. But the reason I brought up Isaiah 2 is because it says, it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established on the highest of the mountains and shall be lifted above. Above the hills, and all the nations will flow to it. And basically they're going to go learn from God. But my. The reason why I see that that is painting the picture more of a redeemed society and not necessarily just us, like singing songs and playing on harps and everything is because they're going to the mountain of the Lord. And I would also say that reading the prophetic books as a whole will paint a more holistic picture of that. To where I think that the cosmology that we have as Christians is really thin. And I think that that is where we kind of get the idea that when we die, our soul separates from our body and we just go float around God and, like, sing songs forever. That's not my view. Not everybody would agree with me. But I find that in Scripture, from reading the prophets, which is probably the idea that many of the early Christians would have because they didn't have all of the. The letters or the Gospels or anything like that. They had the apostles. So the people who are with Jesus, and they had the Old Testament scriptures and the prophets.

John Dehlin [01:43:33] All right, well, Mary, we're really glad you called, and it's a delight to have you on Mormon Stories Live.

Speaker Q [01:43:42] Yeah. And I know that I will be getting off soon, but I would also throw in Galatians 6 as well. Sorry, I just wanted to throw that in.

John Dehlin [01:43:51] Well, I just. I love the. I love the citations, but, like, from your heart. I just. I just want to hear how you see heaven being enjoyable. If, if. If literally you're doing is like sitting at God's feet learning things or worshiping Him. Like, is that something you really look forward to? And if so, what's enjoyable about that? Or is it just definitionally, if you're with God, then you're happy. And so you're just happy because you're always with God, regardless of what you're doing is.

Speaker Q [01:44:24] I'm a Christian And I've chosen God. And so that, like, idea is enjoyable to me. But I guess what I'm saying is that God made us the way that we are. And so the way that we are is the part that's going to be redeemed. I don't think that he's going to strip away all of our personality and we're just going to become these floating spirits for eternity. Right. The reason I'm saying a redeemed society is because you have people who are different. We're made in the image of God. And because we are limited, we're not infinite like Him. I think we reflect different aspects of who God is. So I don't think that when God comes back, he's going to strip all of that away and it's just going to be us, like, learning and spending time with Him. I think that that's an important part. And if you've chosen God and chosen to have a relationship with him, that is enjoyable. But I also think the end goal is redeemed people, as in the way that he made us is going to be redeemed. And then also we get to spend time with God, like, for eternity.

John Dehlin [01:45:34] All right, well, Mary, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live. It's been great to have you.

Speaker Q [01:45:39] Thank you. And I enjoy talking to you, too, and listening to the pod. I probably still will.

John Dehlin [01:45:45] All right, join us again. See you, Mary. Take care. All right. Well, you know, I don't know what y' all think, but, like, I hate to say it, but isn't Joseph Smith right on this one? Like, wouldn't you rather become all powerful gods and goddesses ruling over, you know, your own worlds? I mean, I don't like the eternal pregnancy part, and that may be ex Mormons being spicy, but, like, I still don't get how heaven's appealing unless it's just definitionally you're with God, so you're loving it. But, like, as for what you're actually doing, I still can't get a Christian to explain to me a heaven that sounds appealing.

Cam Reddish [01:46:26] Mormonism definitely made it more expansive and, like, added all of these details to the story that, that traditional Christianity didn't have. And I think that that was probably a lot of the appeal to it because Christianity for so long focused so much on just don't be bad. Right? It was, it was. It was more like fear based. And. And it's hard to kind of define what heaven will look like as a Christian. So that is super interesting to me to hear about what feels like, for people or looks like.

Guest 4 [01:46:58] But to be fair, I would say. I would say Mormons largely have the same problem, Right? Like, yes, I agree with you that I like Joseph Smith's innovation on, like, eternal progression. But when Mormons describe, like, what we're actually doing in the celestial kingdom, beyond that one distinguishing factor of, like, well, we'll progress forever, it's really kind of described in the same nondescript way. It's like, well, it's the best thing ever. It's the best place you can ever imagine. When John was talking about the boringness of conventional heaven, or at least as it's been pitched, it made me think again of this great quote from Hitchens once where he said, you know, one day you'll get tapped on the shoulder and told, great news, this party is going on forever. And not only that, you can't leave, you've got to stay. The boss says so. And he also insists, you have a good time.

John Dehlin [01:47:50] And I, and I love Christopher Hitchens, and I don't like to make fun of people's sacred beliefs, but I do. I think these are fair questions.

Guest 4 [01:47:59] Well, and I know that a lot of people push back on Hitchens like sarcasm sometimes, and I totally understand why. But for me, Hitchens was such an important point in my deconstruction because he basically allowed me to think, even if this were true, is this a model of cosmology and of God that I would want to participate in? And I think that goes hand in hand with what you were saying.

Cam Reddish [01:48:21] Yeah, I really like that you brought up the point, but it hits the same wall. Whether you're Mormon or traditional Christian, you have some idea of what it's like, it's going to be great, and we're going to worship God and bits and pieces that you can kind of piece together. But then you hit that same wall where you're just gonna have to say, well, but God loves us, and it's going to be great. I remember we talked about last time when, When Mormon women especially have questions about, well, are we just going to be pregnant the whole time? What is that going to really look like? Are we, like, are we going to raise these? We have all these questions. It just goes to, well, God created it, God loves you, it's going to be great, and we both hit that wall, regardless of where you are.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] Let me take a. I love it. Let me take a second to call out some people that are sending us super chats as donations. We exist because of the donations of our viewers and listeners. Not just the super chats, but just our monthly donors. So, Meg, Mary, thanks for the super chat as well. Guy McDude. He writes voting for this format with my Blood, sweat and tears, aka outer darkness reverse tithing. Thank you, Guy McDude, for your support and for your super chat. Amy Stevens comedy Thank you as well, Amy, for your support. Joey Smith writes Mormons, including lds, are taxonomically Christian, just like Heaven's Gate and Branch Davidians and Iglesia ni Cristo were or are. Colby, can you explain to me why or or cam why that comment is interesting or funny?

Guest 4 [01:50:01] It goes hand in hand with what we talked about earlier when you were comparing to Jehovah's Witnesses that were like I think most people would acknowledge we're on that Christian spectrum, but on the weird end of the Christian spectrum, I think that's what Joey Smith is saying.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] And then Olga Ann writes great conversations and perspectives. If y' all want to give a comment with a super chat, that'll guarantee that it gets read on the show. I also want to ask everyone to please take a moment to subscribe to this channel if you haven't yet and to like it. And your comments always help with the algorithms. And I also just want to say, if you really value Mormon stories and you want to see it continue, the best way you can support us is to go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and that's what allows us to do what we do. Let's try and take a few more callers. Let's shift to kind of lightning round. We're not going to be able to have conversations with our callers, but we're going to basically let them make their comment or ask their question and and then we'll respond off the air and then jump to the next caller. Joel, you've been super patient. Quickly, where are you calling from? MO Nevermore Ex Mo and what's your question or comment?

Speaker H [01:51:11] I'm from Texas, man. Never ever will be more okay. I've been going to the moment church for 16 months now.

Speaker I [01:51:22] Oh.

Speaker H [01:51:24] Because the missionaries reached out to me and I was curious how people see people that leave the church. They never leave the church alone. I've been attending finding the problems you're saying on Momon stories. Everything you say is very true. But the reason as to why I don't think I know the people at church love Jesus and I would want them and I would love them to follow the real Jesus. But for me, there are three things we both hold The Bible as scripture, unreliable otherwise. Yeah, I know they say as long as it's translated correctly. And now these guys are saying transmitted the Bible says in Matthew chapter seven, people are going to come talking to Jesus saying lord, Lord. And he's going to tell them, I never knew you. I know Joseph Smith changed that one in his translation. So in other words, people are going to come to Jesus saying they know him, they have a relationship with him and he's going to tell them he doesn't. Now how does that translate for me as a Christian, knowing what I know about the Mormon faith, I would think the Mormons qualify for that category. Paul warns us in Second Corinthians, chapter 11 that there's going to be another gospel. Right. Now, understanding what Joseph is saying, the temple stuff and all these things, the things that you have to add. In addition, I know the current apologist, Travis Robert Boylan, Blake Osler, and they are trying to change things a little bit. I would think it qualifies the third one. Lord, Lord, another gospel and another Jesus according to Galatians, chapter one. To me, the thing that I tell my friends, what are these verses meaning? Right. The Bible is saying there's going to be people coming, talking about another Jesus. Okay, who, if it's not us, the evangelicals, would you say the Jehovah Witness people are following another Jesus? Right. So in other words, if the Bible says there's another Jesus, there's another Jesus now who qualifies for another Jesus, who qualifies for a different gospel, who is going to come and say Lord, Lord. Right. So in other words, if we are to hold the Bible as they are saying things that are true, somebody has to fit that category. And from what I'm seeing from Joseph Smith and everything he said he would,

John Dehlin [01:54:13] why not the Mormons?

Speaker H [01:54:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] Joel, you're clearly a super thoughtful and articulate and well read guy. I'm so glad you came on Mormon Stories to share that point of view. Thank you for calling.

Speaker H [01:54:25] Cool. Thank you so much for the good work you do. You've taught us a lot about Mormonism that these guys are hiding from us. So we appreciate the exmoors that are communicating all this information.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] Joel, please come again. Please join us again on Mormon Stories live, will you?

Speaker H [01:54:46] I will.

John Dehlin [01:54:47] Okay. All right, Joel, thanks for joining us.

James [01:54:50] Joel.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] Oh, go ahead.

Guest 4 [01:54:52] I was just going to say Joel, put in a good word for real Jesus with me in that hereafter.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Well, I was going to say Colby had and Cam, any reaction to Joel really quick?

Cam Reddish [01:55:02] Yeah, he's Right. About the. The name. We get this new name in the temple, and so it does fit. Joseph Smith made sure of it. He gave us all this new name through the temple ordinance, so that when Jesus calls us, if we know that new name from going in the temple, then we will answer his call. So you could probably look at that both ways, whether you're a traditional Christian or. Or a Mormon. But he made that pretty clear that if we are worthy and know our temple name, which is not our real, like the. Our earthly name, then we'll know and we'll be able to get in, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] What do y' all think of the argument that Jesus says there's going to be people. He says, lord, Lord, I never knew thee, or whatever. People who say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, and to whom Jesus responds, I never knew thee. And that Jesus talked about people believing in another Jesus. Those people have to exist, so why not the Mormons? It must be the Mormons. Was it that Colby, Was that kind of what. What I heard him argue?

Guest 4 [01:56:03] That is what he argued.

Speaker J [01:56:04] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:56:06] So I guess I'd just say. I mean, we've talked about the problems with taking the Bible that literally. So that would. That would basically where I'd fall back and say, you know, I just don't. By. I don't find that argument convincing. But if people are using Christianity to make themselves better, I am all for it. So Joel, put in a good word for the real Jesus with me.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] All right, Ned, you've been super patient waiting for us. Ned, Moe, Nevermo or ex Mo. And where are you calling from?

Speaker R [01:56:36] Oh, I'm a tbn.

John Dehlin [01:56:39] Oh, I love it. You're a mo.

Speaker R [01:56:41] That's right, I'm a Mo. And I'm calling from beautiful Provo, Utah.

John Dehlin [01:56:47] Ned, I can't tell you how happy I am that an orthodox, true believing Mormon has joined Mormon Stories.

Speaker R [01:56:54] Say hallelujah.

John Dehlin [01:56:55] So, Ned, why. Tell me why. I'm gonna have to pause here. Tell me why you feel comfortable listening to a show or watching a show that many believing Mormons might deride as an apostate show.

Speaker R [01:57:15] The reason I do is I think God's umbrella is real big and he wants all his children.

John Dehlin [01:57:24] Ned, you're kind of. You're my kind of Mormon, Ned. Keep going.

Speaker R [01:57:28] Putting God in a box and saying, this is what he is and he can't be anything else because this is what we've decided is not realistic. Why don't we let God be what he is when we get there, then we'll have a complete and A full understanding.

John Dehlin [01:57:49] I like you, Ned. We need to bring you on Mormon stories. If you'll email me later, I'm going to have you come on as a guest. If you'll come on.

Speaker R [01:57:56] Yeah, I'd like to do that. There's a Baptist preacher that was in the south out of Atlanta, Georgia, named Charles Stanley. Anybody who knows In Touch Ministries loves Charles Stanley. He since passed away, but he talks about gospel principles in a way that makes it realistic.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] My dad's a Latter Day Saint and he listens to the evangelical minister Chuck Swindoll every chance he gets.

Speaker R [01:58:28] Another good guy.

John Dehlin [01:58:29] So you reminded me of my dad, where you supplement your Mormonism with Christian Sunday sermons.

Speaker R [01:58:36] One of the things that he promotes is everyone who accepts Jesus as their savior, however they see him, will get into heaven, will be saved. But the saved people have to go through what's called, they call the evangelicals, the judgment of rewards. And partly what you receive in the judgment of rewards is based on what you do in this life. And that's what Joseph Smith did with the last Joel the Terrestrial and the celestial kingdoms and how you grow in the gospel. And we don't know anything about them because we haven't been there, but the progression and the growing is ongoing. Does that sound realistic?

John Dehlin [01:59:29] Ned, you're my kind of Mormon. Colby and Cam, what do you guys think of Ned?

Speaker R [01:59:37] Silence.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] I appreciate that they're both muted. All right, you don't have to answer Colby or Cam, but Ned, I'm excited that you're here. I love your perspective. You're a big tent Mormon and I love it. I'm really glad I'm unmuted now.

Speaker R [01:59:55] John.

Guest 4 [01:59:55] Sorry, I had a connection issue there for a second.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] Okay, well, did you want to say what you think about Ned? How cool you think Ned is?

Guest 2 [02:00:04] Colby.

Guest 4 [02:00:05] Oh, I love it. Ned, I love that you called into the show because what we really are trying to do is build a place where we can have these types of conversations and we can find common cause with people, even if we're no longer members. I guess my one question to you, Ned, would be, have we straw manned Mormonism as you've been listening to us today, or do you feel like we've given a pretty accurate picture of at least what some people believe?

Speaker R [02:00:31] Well, a little on the straw man thing. I. I think that people don't understand the LDS view very well, and the church institutionally doesn't do a very good job of explaining it. It's all about being a good company man and following the rules and the Organization and the structure and through that, that'll get you to God. What in my view is that building a relationship with the ever living God comes first and then whatever faith tradition you have, whether it's elder, guest or Baptist or something else, comes secondary. It's a tool the Lord uses to help implement the gospel in our lives. Does that sound reasonable?

John Dehlin [02:01:27] I love that.

Guest 4 [02:01:28] I love that. Ned, that would have been exactly the answer I would have given as a believing person myself. And I think that type of view, I have no qualms about it.

John Dehlin [02:01:48] Ned, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories Live. You're delightful. Please come on the show. I want to interview you and please call us back, you know, in future shows. Ned.

Speaker R [02:02:00] Okay, how do I do that? How do I get in touch with you?

Speaker J [02:02:02] Email me.

John Dehlin [02:02:03] If anyone wants to be on Mormon Stories, you can go to MormonStories.org click on the, there's a button that says apply and you just apply to be on the show and you fill out a little online form and you record a little three minute video. But also, Ned, if you just want to email me@mormonstoriesmail.com you can say, hey, I'm Ned from the show and you reached out about coming on the show.

Speaker R [02:02:28] Okay, I think I already did that and I sent you there with a little three minute clip.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] All right, follow up again because sometimes we lose stuff. Things fall through the cracks.

Speaker R [02:02:37] I will do it. And remember, I'll be back.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] All right, thanks, Ned. What a delightful guy. Really quickly, we've got a few super chats I want to share. Cynthia writes Catholic here. John, respectfully, I think you regard the afterlife too literally. My faith allows me to pray to 1000s of saints. I plan to party with them when I'm not on earth. Also, us Catholics made the best art. Love that comment. Cynthia, thank you for sharing that comment. Also, Berta Walker, thank you for the super chat. Berta just says I love Mormon stories. Thank you, Berta. And also Michael says, love it. Michael sent 50 bucks. So we love those super chats because they allow us to keep the lights on. This is super fun. We've got a few callers that have been super patient. Let's get Ben in here really quick. Ben.

Super Chats, Sandra Tanner, and Late Callers

Speaker F [02:03:39] Oh wow, I wasn't expecting that.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] This is the Ben Halaf from a couple weeks ago. Canadian Ben Halaf. Hey, Ben, thanks for joining us. I'm glad we could get you this time.

Cam Reddish [02:03:51] Yeah.

Speaker F [02:03:52] I'm glad you guys had me. I wasn't expecting you guys having me on because I keep sloning out. But really quick, because I got to be respectful of time here. When I came to your show, I wanted to ask you right before I stepped away from the church, I wanted to know about heaven, and I'm glad it was addressed, but I wanted to find that. That sweet spot for me because I was afraid to leave the church simply because I didn't want to lose a connection with my brothers that passed away. And I didn't want to give up that eternal perspective because, you know, I have high anxiety about what happens. And I know my wife have moved on from that, and she's okay with not knowing. But for me, I'm afraid still. I'm trying to figure it out because I want a good outcome, but I. I want to know. For me, I never really found that meat sauce like that. Good thing. This is. I mean, for me, heaven felt boring in Mormonism. I mean, I was supposed to create planets and all that. And for me, I felt like I'm going to do the same thing. I'm suffering from putting people through the wringer to repent and all that. I don't think I want to do that. But also, I wanted to make a comment really quick that I feel like Mormons right now in 2025 are trying really hard to be Christians. If you were to do a Google search, you'll find that the angel Moroni with the trumpet doesn't appear as much anymore, appears with a cross. And I just feel like there's got to be a cause and effect on that, because I feel like Mormons get upset when we tell them they're not Christians. But I certainly feel like the push is hard when even somebody made a comment that slowly they're starting to mention Joseph Smith less in general conference and heading towards Jesus Christ more in their general meeting. So what do you guys all think of that? Are they very aware that maybe they're not as Christians that they thought they were? And they're trying to head that way now because it certainly feels that they're hyper focusing a little bit more on Jesus Christ, at least for the last couple conferences? I don't know. What do you all think of that?

John Dehlin [02:06:03] All right, Ben, if it's all right, we'll take your question off the air. But so glad you called. Love your Mormon stories.

Speaker F [02:06:10] And, yeah, see you guys. Hey, nice to meet you. Colby. Cammie, have a good day.

John Dehlin [02:06:14] All right, Ben, thank you for Calling in. Call in again. All right, Cam, do you have a response to Ben and then Colby?

Cam Reddish [02:06:25] That's tricky. There was a lot in there.

John Dehlin [02:06:28] What about that last part about are Mormons trying to pivot more towards Christianity?

Cam Reddish [02:06:33] And I think definitely, yeah. I mean, you can just see by the fact that they. They don't want to be called Mormons anymore, and now they want to use the cross, and now they want to celebrate Easter differently than they used to celebrate it more like mainstream Christianity. And so, yeah, I think you can just visibly see that with the changes that they've made, even shortening church is more typical for mainstream Christians. And I saw some youth conference video or something like that that looked just like one of those Christian rock concerts that you. That you see, that would have been kind of unheard of when I was growing up in Mormonism. And so I definitely think it is moving that direction because they want to be accepted by the Christians. And I do think it's more of an expansive view of who Christians are and how. I mean, like, I was taught that we love the Christians and they just don't have everything yet, but kind of like Ned was saying, we accept them and hope that they can continue on with whatever the afterlife looks like.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] If you want to add Colby.

Guest 4 [02:07:39] No, I think Cammie nailed it. And I think Ben's question basically shows that they are doing that.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] Yeah, yeah. And you know, even one of Russell M. Nelson's first acts as prophet was to make the term the identity Mormon forbodent. He called the identity the Mormon named identity a victory for Satan. He admonished members to no longer refer to the church as the Mormon Church or even as the LDS Church, but to call it the Church of Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He made the logo where Jesus is bigger in the. In the LDS Church logo. And I like, in so many ways, those who love Jesus and love Christians and love Christianity should see all those moves. Accepting the cross, accepting more traditional Christian holidays like the Passover, like, all of that. Shouldn't Christians celebrate and welcome as the church? Not. Not like deriding as the church just wanting to be accepted, but like the church becoming more Christian. Like, what's wrong with that?

Guest 4 [02:09:02] But. But I mean, I think one of the things we've heard from a number of different colors is that's really just a patina. Right? Because when you get down like Mormons, like, it's just a facade. I mean, sorry, teen is a weird word because when you get down to what Mormons Believe like they're still always going to have the Book of Mormon. They're still always going to have the belief in prophets. They're still probably always going to have the Doctrine and Covenants, the pearl of great price. So like, I guess it just makes me wonder like why even move more Christian around the edges? Because they're not really making the foundational changes that we're hearing from the Christians who've joined us that say Mormonism isn't Christian. And here's why. None of those changes have to do with like what you see when you Google the church buildings. Right?

John Dehlin [02:09:47] But, but, but is it even the Book of Mormon? It's another testament of Jesus Christ. It's all about the atonement. It's all about Jesus literally dies and is resurrected and visits the Nephites and teaches similar stuff to what he taught in the New Testament. Like why does the book of, the existence of the Book of Mormon, that's very Christ centered, detracting from the Mormon's degree of Christianity. Is that fair?

Guest 4 [02:10:15] I think it's, that's then when it comes back to kind of the way can he opened with that, the different takes, right? Like it's because most Christians take this view of sola scriptura and so the Bible is their authority. And if you move beyond that authority like that, that identity marker, to borrow a phrase from Dan McClellan, is part of what they define as being Christian.

John Dehlin [02:10:37] And I, I just, I, I see that and I, I can respect it, but I also think it's arbitrary. It's just kind of gatekeeping. It's just a gatekeeping.

Guest 4 [02:10:47] To me, I agree entirely. I mean it definite like the definition of every word is made up, right? Like ultimately all words are made up, including Christian. And so I agree it's largely an arbitrary distinction. And that's where to me it's more interesting about why are you defining it that way? And I'm really glad we've had so many callers who've had interesting different perspectives on that tonight.

John Dehlin [02:11:10] All right, well, let's continue with the rapid round. Deidre, you've been very patient. We're going to have to take your call really quickly. What's your question or comment?

Speaker I [02:11:19] Hi, good evening.

Cam Reddish [02:11:20] Thank you for doing that.

Speaker I [02:11:22] Just real quick, I know it might sound a naive question because I'm not sure, but is Joseph Smith even mentioned in the Bible at all?

John Dehlin [02:11:30] He would say he is,

Speaker I [02:11:33] but like a Christian Bible, if you were to read it, is his name ever mentioned?

John Dehlin [02:11:40] What did Colby.

Guest 4 [02:11:41] I guess I just reverse it though, and say like, oh, go ahead, Kim.

Cam Reddish [02:11:45] There's Isaiah scriptures. And I, I'm, it's off the top of my head.

Guest 4 [02:11:50] 29.

Cam Reddish [02:11:50] 29, yes, Isaiah 29. That we kind of, what does it say into Joseph? That there'll be a prophet. And I, I think it even says Joseph. But that might have been a Joseph edition.

Guest 4 [02:12:03] No, that's in the Book of Mormon version. It talks about Mormons read it to basically. Yeah, they read it to basically be a prophecy about the, the Book of Mormon. What I, the way I would answer your question, Deidre, is I'd basically reflect it back and say, say, well, is the Nicene Creed mentioned in the Bible? Like are these other things that people have talked about being Christian identity markers, are they mentioned in the Bible? Because if that's the, if that's basically the test we're using, how consistent can we be about the application of that test? That's where my brain goes. But that's probably because I'm a nitpicking lawyer.

Speaker I [02:12:38] Just a quick follow up because I know you guys got to go. But so if he is, or if he isn't mentioned in the Bible, my follow up question would be why is it then that the Mormons had to create their own, what I would think Bible called the Book of Mormon? If they still consider themselves Christian and shouldn't they then just follow and practice out of the Bible and not the Book of Mormon?

Cam Reddish [02:12:59] If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:13:01] Mormons didn't create the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith did.

Speaker I [02:13:04] But no, yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [02:13:05] I think that's a fair question. Why did Joseph Smith feel like we needed the Book of Mormon? Or why did God think we needed the Book of Mormon and then gave it to Joseph Smith? And I think Joseph Smith would say it's because the Bible was flawed. It left a lot of questions unanswered because it got corrupted over the years. And so God always planned to have the Book of Mormon be released in 1830 to help clarify all the conclusion, all the, all the confusion that the Bible left. I mean, what I was taught was the fact that there are thousands of Christian churches is evidence that the Bible doesn't do a very good job of clarifying what the true Christianity is. If the Bible were clear and non contradictory and specific, then there'd be a lot less Christian sects. But because it doesn't do a good job of making things very clear, Joseph Smith would argue that the Book of Mormon was needed to make things more clear. But then the problem with that is there's hundreds of Mormon sects, even in spite of the existence of both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. So I'm not sure the Book of Mormon improved things. Yeah, really?

Speaker I [02:14:24] Last comment, real quick. Cammie mentioned it earlier about your earthly name and then the name that you get, I guess, when you die or whatnot. Is it true? I heard from another podcaster, I can't think of her name, but she told everyone that when she found out her name given to her ended up being whatever day it was that you went to the temple, meaning if you were at the temple on Mondays, your then name would be Mary, or Fridays, it would be something else. Is that necessarily true how you thought?

Guest [02:14:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:52] Mormon temple names are assigned by the day that you go to the temple. And everyone, all men who go to the temple on May 5th get the exact same name, even though they're led to believe that's God's.

Speaker I [02:15:06] It's so special for them.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] Yeah, that's okay.

Speaker Q [02:15:10] That's all I have to say.

Speaker I [02:15:12] Yeah.

Cam Reddish [02:15:12] You don't know as a Mormon that it's just this kind of whatever day you go, you get that.

Speaker I [02:15:17] No.

Speaker K [02:15:17] Yeah.

Speaker I [02:15:18] You feel like it's real special to you.

Cam Reddish [02:15:20] Yeah, it's very special. And you have to remember. And I remember one time I forgot my name and I was like, terrified. Like, it was like the third time I had been through or something, and I. I didn't remember my name.

Speaker I [02:15:31] And you're not allowed to share it, right?

Cam Reddish [02:15:33] They can tell you again. So I had to, like, raise my hand and then go to the back and they told you. And then one other time, I just. I've got adhd, and so I will forget things sometimes. And when you there, sometimes there's a few months in between going to the temple, and so I didn't remember it, and now I've paired it, so I won't ever forget. But Colby knows my name after we got married, and so he could remind.

Speaker I [02:15:52] And you're not supposed to share it though, either, right?

Cam Reddish [02:15:55] No, you're not supposed to. And I'm not allowed to know his name. So he has his name and I have mine, and he knows mine, but I can't know his name. It's almost kind of just know what

Speaker I [02:16:05] day he went to the temple and you'll figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:16:08] What I think is cool, Deidre, is that your. Your house.

Speaker I [02:16:11] See what day went to the temple,

John Dehlin [02:16:14] Deidre, What I think is cool is that your house is. Is designed exactly identical to Cammie's. I think that's really.

Speaker I [02:16:21] I know we're both in the same house.

John Dehlin [02:16:23] All right, Deidre, thanks for calling in.

Speaker I [02:16:24] It's great to have a real quick side note. I didn't know that these were backgrounds, but have a good night. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:16:29] Thanks, Deidre. Thanks for calling. All right, really quickly, we've got some super chats. I want to make sure everyone gets rewarded. Mike Fish writes, but if you imagine the person with which you have ever felt the most connected, understood, loved and accepted and then multiply that by an infinite amount, that's not such a bad thing, is it?

Speaker R [02:16:49] So.

John Dehlin [02:16:50] Oh, oh, Mike has a. An earlier question. So Mike Fish wrote, this is a statement Mike Fish wrote, never Mormon once, but no longer Christian. Joseph's version of eternal life. I'm not aware of any principle of logic or reasoning that says the more appealing possibility is the one that is true. And then he goes on to say, but if you imagine the person with which you have ever felt the most connected, understood, loved and accepted and then multiply that by an infinite amount, that's not such a bad thing, is it? Colby or Cami, any reactions to Mike's comments?

Guest 4 [02:17:31] Well, my reaction would be that it's, it's impossible for me to conceive of doing anything, even something that I really like for eternity. Like that it would go on for forever is something that in our house we actually have a poster. We love the television show the good place. Our 12 year old just watched it all the way through for the first time. And this show really drives that point home that an afterlife doing anything, even something that's like amazing and that you love is really hard to wrap your head around. Finding joyful and I think eternity. Take that view. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:09] Yeah. All right, one more. Theron Benson writes, I'm an ex rlds or Community of Christ Church member and later Catholic who went to a Protestant school who considered neither Christian, who considered neither Christian. So the Protestant school that Theron went to didn't consider Catholics or Mormons or community of Christ people Christian. And then now Theron says, I consider both christian and think LDs are too. And Theron, you're consistent with our non Christians who a majority of which consider Mormons to be Christian. All right, we've just got a couple more callers that have been very patient. Bill S. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live. And what's your question or comment?

Speaker O [02:19:04] Hi John. Thanks everybody. So never Mormon. I'm in kind of the Portland, Oregon area, but I am an ex two by two.

John Dehlin [02:19:13] Oh, welcome.

Speaker O [02:19:15] Yeah, so I guess we're considered somewhat cousins, but According to that episode. But, well, just for myself, when I was a two by two and coming out, I thought it was a Christian back then, but now I've coming to understand more orthodox Christianity and what kind of mainstream Christianity understands and defines as Christian. I wasn't one and that was a hard thing to come to and realize and internalize at 45 years old. I'm only 47, so I've been out for less than, you know, about a year and a half. And just understanding kind of the core tenets of what Christianity is and what I understand is defining as a Christian is not just simply believing in Jesus Christ. It's not what other people have said. Which Jesus is it? You know, who he is? Do you believe that he is God? Is he part of the Trinity? Do you believe that he died and he rose on the third day and that he's coming back again? You know, and some of that in the two by two religion was, you know, anti trinitarian. You know, look down on churches we drive past. You know, obviously we would, we would probably say that Mormons weren't Christian either.

Speaker S [02:20:40] But

Guest 4 [02:20:43] it's a little, it's a little

Speaker O [02:20:44] difficult to come to that realization. So, you know, far along in your life. But it's, I mean, if I had to, from what I understand and what I've watched in the show, what I've watched of, you know, people with apologetics talking to Mormons, I mean, I would come to the same conclusion probably that Mormons probably aren't Christians. Now there's that caveat, is that there can be true believers, you know, really anywhere true believers, quote unquote, anywhere in any church. And then there's the whole mystery of, you know, God knows the heart, so we don't, we won't truly know. So I mean, that's the whole mystery too.

Speaker J [02:21:30] Right?

John Dehlin [02:21:32] Well, Bill, Bill S. I'm so, you know, I loved the series we did on the Two by Twos. I'm, I'm so grateful you're a listener and I loved your comment. I wanted, I want to respond, but we're gonna have to just take our final callers and go. So, Bill, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Thanks for calling in. Really, really glad to have you on the show. Hope you'll come back.

Speaker J [02:21:56] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:21:56] Thank you, Bill. All right, let's get, let's get Jim in. Jim, you've been really patient.

Speaker S [02:22:05] Hello.

John Dehlin [02:22:05] Welcome to Mormon Stories Live. What's your comment or question?

Speaker S [02:22:09] Well, first I want to say I feel nervous and I'm nerding out because I've watched you, I feel like you're kind of a celebrity. And Colby, I've really enjoyed hearing some of your perspectives, especially from the legal side. I think that's really cool. Sandra Tanner I'm a huge fan of Sandra. And so some of the perspectives that she has, I completely agree with and resonate with. So some, some of the things that I was thinking that you mentioned. First of all, I know that you have a passion for the truth, and I think that's exactly why the LDS church is not, or what is the that's not derisive, whatever approach is not derisive. But it's, you'll know the truth and truth, it'll set you free. But those who want to hide the truth, right. Who are trying to squelch that, that's not the, I don't think that's of Christ. So I, I would love it to be the case that they are believers, that they are, that they are going to heaven. But I'm not the judge. And from the, what I believe to be the correct interpretation of the Bible. And I don't have like an interlinear Bible, I'm not fluent in Greek or Hebrew, but I do see that there's consistency over. So my, my expertise is in math and logic and I really like that stuff. And so intergenerationally, the Bible changing people would complain about it. For instance, in the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, they have a new world translation. And unilaterally, people who ascribe themselves to the general definition of Christianity claim that it is a false interpretation. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God. They put a God in there. And so that's, it's not correct. And that's, that's a. Hey, this generation 1222-1223, we said that's not true. And I don't see that historically. I see arguments between interpretations. Paul and Peter and I, those guys were getting mad at each other. And so, so that's one part. And then the other part is with heaven. I think if you think about like two dimensions, there's a book about two dimensional people trying to be described. Three dimensions.

Guest 4 [02:24:18] Flatland. Yes.

Speaker S [02:24:19] Yes. And so they can't conceive of it. So the only way you can see it is over. What's another dimension? The shared time.

Speaker F [02:24:27] Right.

Speaker S [02:24:28] And so if I try and meet you in some place, you have the longitude, the latitude, you have to have the altitude.

James [02:24:35] Right.

Speaker S [02:24:35] If you're on floor three And I'm on floor two. We don't intersect. It's also time. But what about God's ways being higher than our ways? If you look at Revelation, John the Revelator, when he's describing heaven, he talks about the wall. And there are things that are not transparent that he sees multiple through each one. And I think what he was doing was experiencing the multi dimensional aspect of the afterlife. I don't think we're going to be limited. I don't think we'll have human hands and fingers. Why do I need a rectum when I'm dead? You know, that's just me. But I think there will be a multi dimensional aspect of it. In the same way that God is trying to describe something more than what we can understand, he's using a shared extra dimension, which is time. I don't think it'll be like. And then also I think, well, switching to the last part, which is, I'm not universalist, but I hope God is because Jesus said, he who puts his hand at the plow and looks back has no part in the kingdom of heaven. Well, Peter denied Jesus. Jesus was sacrificed. And that's another thing. That's the prophecy of Jesus. If you're Talking about Isaiah 52, 53, he will be, you know, a spotless lamb. He will be the sacrifice. They don't read that in orthodox temples because it's so evocative of Christianity. Jeremiah 31, 3, 33. There will be a new covenant, right? A New Testament. There's a. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that, that I think differentiates the Bible from the Mormon Bible. Not the least of them being multiple authors and I feel like I'm talking too much.

Guest 4 [02:26:13] No, you're okay, you're okay. Jim, I think I would love to have a more detailed conversation with you on the topic of like non resistant, non belief and explore your beliefs a little bit more in depth. But I think for now, just for the topic tonight, I think I appreciate you calling in to share your perspective and definitely appreciate what you shared. So thank you for, for doing that and I agree with you.

Speaker M [02:26:37] Thank you.

Guest 4 [02:26:37] I hope God is a universalist and put in a good word for me if you beat me there. Okay.

Speaker S [02:26:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:43] Thanks for joining us, Jim. Thanks for calling in. Join again. I do think it's. I, I just. Some might be interested. I just. I'm beginning a series on a new biography coming out about Joseph Smith by John Turner, who did the biography about Brigham Young. And, and, and in that first episode, which we've already recorded. He reminds us that Joseph Smith's grandfather, Asil Smith was a total Unitarian Universalist who believed that all churches were corrupt, that no church was true, and that the Bible was totally flawed and self contradictory and that you didn't need to be a member of a church to get salvation. That was Joseph's grandfather, Esau. And weirdly we talk about this in the episode. There's a point where Asil Smith is worried that his son Joseph Sr. And Lucy are going to join like the Presbyterians or the Methodists. And he drops off a copy of Thomas Paine's Age of Reason into the Smith home and says read this. And it basically makes that same argument that all religions are corrupt, the Bible is super flawed and you shouldn't even believe in prophets because you're always believing in a second or third hand witness. So I just think it's, it's funny that it for many, if you argue the Universalist Unitarian kind of point of view, Joseph would have done better to just listen to his grandfather or Thomas Paine. All right, we've got to hurry and finish up. Deld, you've been very patient. We got to go quickly. What's your comment or question? Welcome to Mormon Stories Live.

Speaker J [02:28:32] Yeah, thanks for having me. Geez. I actually really. What you just last said about Smith's grandfather, Joseph Smith's grandfather is exactly kind of what I've come to view. I mean I've. I was raised in the church, the teenager. I spent some time as a born again Christian. My mom was really into watching TVN and evangelical shows and I kind of got into that because they were a lot more exciting than the kind of boring Mormons Traditional General Conference that kind of put me to sleep. So I got really kind of into that for a couple years and then I moved back to live with my father who was practicing Mormon and I kind of got back into the Mormon faith and ended up serving a mission and all that.

John Dehlin [02:29:23] Hey Dell, just for the.

Speaker J [02:29:24] Currently I'm kind of inactive.

John Dehlin [02:29:25] Dale, just for the sake of time, we'd love to have you back more since we're kind of running out of time. Thank you for sharing your background a little bit. Do you have a question or comment really quick as we're ending the show?

Speaker J [02:29:37] Yeah. I believe no one can really say if you're a Christian or not other than yourself. If you believe that you're a Christian, then you can identify as a Christian. Same thing as, you know, kind of gender or being gay or not gay, whatever. You might want to Call it. If you believe you're a Christian, there's no one, no Mormon, no Catholic, no. No one can say that you're not a Christian. If you believe that you are, then you should be honored and respected as a Christian. That. That's what you said that you are.

John Dehlin [02:30:09] I love it. Thank you, Del, for calling in. And I hope you'll call in again another time.

Speaker J [02:30:15] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:30:16] All righty. Take care. And this is our final guest for tonight. We have Nick. Nick, you've been super patient. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live.

Speaker P [02:30:25] Adidas versus Nike.

John Dehlin [02:30:26] Just kidding.

Speaker P [02:30:28] I'll make it super quick. Just want to make sure that the gospel that I have come to understand from the biblical Christ is from Paul, is that anybody at any time, no matter their lifestyle, the choices they've made, when they've come to a point where they trust in Christ to be their savior and they trust him. That is the point of salvation. That is when you are saved from your sins and you can know you have the insurance of salvation or eternal life. Trust in Christ's death, burial, resurrection. And to me, that's the most dangerous message because you don't need church for that. It's truly just Christ. It's a spiritual thing. It's an individual thing. And to me, that's true Christianity is. Is trusting in Christ. And everything that the Mormons are working towards is everything that God gives freely. You want your families together forever. You want eternal life. You want to be exalted, you want to be a child of God. All that is freely given through faith in Christ by his blood alone. Not of any works, not trying to fit the triangle into the circle.

James [02:31:44] The.

Speaker P [02:31:44] The change comes after you received the love of God. That's when the, you know, no matter the lifestyles, the love of God is what changes somebody. Not trying to earn God's love. Let God's love change you. And to me, that's what I see in the Bible when I study it. I don't really see contradictions. I study a lot of different things. I challenge my own beliefs as well, but I just wanted to get that out there. Is that the true gospel is not by any of our works, any of our changes that we make. God's love is. Is free for all people. It's what religion does that murky the water. It's what man has done. Like Joseph Smith and Jehovah Witnesses founders and all these different groups that have added this, this, this works. You must fit our vision of what we think a Christian is defined as versus come whosoever Whosoever believes in me is saved.

John Dehlin [02:32:46] Love it.

Speaker P [02:32:47] Come out, child.

John Dehlin [02:32:48] So, Nick, you've never been Mormon, I take it?

Speaker P [02:32:51] No, I have been. Oh. I was the lds, and I know the teachings very well, and. And that then when, you know, rock the boat a little bit, you know, things came apart, and then I became atheist just for a little bit, and then I had to, you know, I kind of. I related to the Heretic movie quite a bit with some of the questions he brought up, because when I started learning about these other gods and Christians and so, you know, other gods and other religions that had the same kind of prophecies, I really had to do my homework on some of those things. So I feel blessed by God to know and the. The one true God that is so generous and gracious and merciful that I did not know Mormonism that I literally. It's hard to explain. I know it could ruffle feathers, but it truly is 1000% a different Christ.

John Dehlin [02:33:44] All right, Nick, well, I so love that you joined us. Where are you calling from?

Speaker P [02:33:48] St. George, Utah.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] All right, well, Nick, it's been a delight having you on Mormon stories. So glad you called. I hope you'll call back.

Guest 2 [02:33:56] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker P [02:33:56] Appreciate you, man. Thank you, guys.

John Dehlin [02:33:58] Take care, Nick.

Speaker P [02:33:59] Thank you.

Final Thoughts and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [02:34:00] All right, well, we've gone on almost, you know, a little over two and a half hours. Let's go ahead and give each of you guys a chance to kind of summarize, and then I'll give my final thoughts. Cami, do you want to give any final thoughts?

Cam Reddish [02:34:13] Yeah. I love hearing from people because like Colby said earlier, Christianity is just a term. It's a term that we use to. To describe ourselves in some way, and to hear that there is a huge spectrum of what that means to people is. Is really kind of cool and fascinating because it can mean different things to so many people. And so I really appreciated hearing so many perspectives on Christianity. And we want to hear from. From the listeners, what kinds of topics you would want us to discuss on this going forward, whether you want to go into more. If you like this doctrinal stuff, or if you would rather go with maybe deconstruction topics of what did it feel like when you approached believing family after you left an organized religion or that kind of thing. So let us know that in the comments, because I love these discussions, and this is what brings people together, is hearing what people actually think about something.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] And, Kami, in your view, are Mormons Christian? What's your view?

Cam Reddish [02:35:17] Yes, I think Mormons are Christians. I was a Christian. So I really, truly believed I was Christian. So I don't think I could take that from somebody.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] Somebody's asking who Cammie is. Cami, who are you?

Cam Reddish [02:35:30] I am Colby's wife.

John Dehlin [02:35:32] Or Colby's your husband.

Guest 4 [02:35:34] That's what I was gonna say.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] Cammie's awesome. That's who Cammy is. All right, Colby, what's your, what's your summation?

Guest 4 [02:35:44] No, I, I think to answer the question of the, the prompt in the episode tonight, I would also agree that Mormons are Christian. I don't feel like, like I can understand why people take a different view, but to me, those are different questions. Like whether you believe in the creed, to me answers that question right. Do you believe in that creed? And so I definitely believe that as a Mormon, I had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If that's the definition that we're playing or we're using as we answer this question, that's how I would have looked at it. My overall also thought is I just really wanted to praise the callers tonight. I thought we had a lot of different perspectives. People who were post Mormon Christians, people who are never Mormon Christians, some. Some of those rowdy atheists. And I just really appreciated how, how much people were able to share their perspective, but also leave room for other people's perspective. Because I think that type of exchange is something that we're just missing in our society today where people can share their perspective and maybe we can push back and say, this is why that perspective isn't going to personally work for me and not try and take anything away from people in sharing that. Because I just think as we try to make efforts to understand each other more, I just think it will help us so much more see the humanity on other people. And I think that's an important thing that we need to do to help people find community. So thank you for having us on, John, and thank you to all the callers for making this such a special episode.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] Absolutely. Thanks to Cami and Colby. And I'll just give some final thoughts as well. I absolutely think Mormons are Christian. And my arguments for why, number one, who gets to decide, Is it the oldest churches? Is it the biggest churches? Is it some committee, like, who gets to decide? Secondly, is it even Christlike? Is it within the spirit of Christ to judge another church or another observant of Christ or another self proclaimed follower of Christ Christ? Is it even Christian or Christlike to deem someone else as insufficiently Christian? Didn't Jesus himself admonish us not to judge Shouldn't God or Jesus be the ones that ultimately judge whether we're Christian? I think it's a fundamentally unchristlike act to condemn somebody else as being unchristian. As a Mormon, I could just say that that exclusion always felt smug to me and it just felt, it felt off putting and it certainly didn't make me want to listen to or, you know, respect other Christian faiths. It was just a turnoff. So I think it's counterproductive for anyone who claims to be a Christian to turn around and say that somebody else or a whole group of people whose church is named after Jesus and who call themselves Christian and who try and live in kind and Christ like ways to just turn around and turn your nose up at them and say that they're not Christian, that's just, it's smug and judgmental for me. If your church has Jesus's name, if you, if you believe, if you profess belief in Jesus as your savior, if you believe in the New Testament and in the Holy Bible, and again, if you call yourself a Christian, you're a Christian, full stop. I don't care what other interpretations you have or what your Christology is or your eschatology. I don't care you're a Christian in my book. I think it's fair to ask, do Mormons think non Mormons are Christian? I think Mormons can also be smug and condescending. So Mormons need to stop that. I do think it's disrespectful to reduce all of this discussion to silliness and say, who could beat who? Can the hobbits beat the elves? Can the dwarves beat the hobbits? I don't like to go there, but I understand why atheists and agnostic sort of retreat to that characterization of this debate as being silly. I do think there's silliness in this debate. I don't think Christians do themselves any favor to even engage in this debate. I think the best answer for a Christian to this question is is every person should just do their best to, to follow Christ the best way they know how. And God and Jesus are the ultimate judges. And finally, Colby, I'm going to reiterate a point you made earlier in the show. And that's that the, the defining arbiter of whether someone is a Christian is their behavior. Do you stand up for the things Christ stood up for? Do you stand up for the poor? Do you stand up for the sick? Do you help the sick? Do you visit the prisoners and the afflicted? Do you eschew worldliness and material possessions. Do you love God? Do you love your neighbor? And do your, does your behavior reflect and does your. Your self self described Christianity reflect the core teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ, which above all else is being charitable. Charity, that is the determining factor. Are you a charitable person? If you are a kind, loving, charitable person, even if you don't call yourself a Christian, you're Christian in my book and I think in Jesus's book. All right, well, that's, that's my final sermon. Looks like we lost Cam. Colby. I had to, I had to pull, pull the stops and let, let my, my decaffeinated or my caffeinated John freak flag fly. So that was it.

Guest 4 [02:42:00] I loved it. I loved it, John. I thought that was very powerful and I think you're right. I mean, it's literally right in the Gospels, right. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples. If you have one to another.

John Dehlin [02:42:10] Yeah.

Guest 4 [02:42:11] If your Christianity doesn't lead you to preference that I really think you've lost the plot.

John Dehlin [02:42:17] Love it. Well, Colby, thanks for making this all happen. You and you and kid, this wouldn't be a thing without you and Cam. So thanks for, for making the show happen and maybe we'll do this next week. Should we do this next week?

Guest 4 [02:42:29] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [02:42:31] Let's leave it up to our. Let's leave it up to our viewers and callers and listeners. Now, if y' all value this show and you want to see it continue, we would love you to comment. We would love you to let us know that you're valuing this show. I could even create a poll really quickly and poll our listeners and ask them if they want us to continue this show. It's not totally traditional Mormon stories, and so there's a part of me that is still unsure, but I'm going to go ahead and create a poll right now. Should we continue this format, yes or no? I'm going to start the poll and we'll let y' all decide right now in the votes. But also email us if you have feedback about whether you like this format. Make comments in this episode on whether you like it. We would love your feedback on how to make it better. The best way for you to ensure that this show continues is to donate and to support us because that, that's how we pay the bills. That's how we continue.

Guest [02:43:46] So.

John Dehlin [02:43:47] But it's also fair if you just think this is not really a useful format. If this dilutes the Mormon stories brand, if you just don't think these are quality conversations and you would just like us to stick to our bread and butter, which is either long form Mormon stories stories or the occasional forays we do into truth claims like LDS discussions or, you know, Mormon history like Matt Harris's Second Class Saints or current events like we've covered Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. If you just want us to stick to those things, that's a valid argument too. Right now the poll says 67 of you voted, 95, 93, 94% of you want us to continue. So clearly those of you who are currently on the live stream are valuing this this format. We also want those of you who aren't joining us on the live stream to email us or to comment in the comments on the post whether or not you would like to see us continue that format. All right, Colby, thanks for joining us. Hope to see you again next week. We plan to try and do these on Thursday nights at 6pm Mountain. If that time doesn't work for you, better times work for you. We also want to know that as well. It looks like culture. The Cultural hall is on. So if y' all want to jump to another Mormon themed show, Cultural hall is a great channel that you all should check out. So check out Colch. Thanks again Colby. Thanks to Julia and to Maven for their help this week. Thanks to Cam, thanks to Brooklyn for her post production editing. Thanks again to all the donors that make this possible. Thanks to our thanks to our callers and those who called in as well. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.