Mormon Stories: The AP Story on Mormon Abuse

Brenton Erickson [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:05] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is August 11, 2022, and I have no voice. And the reason I have no voice is because I've been covering the AP story on Mormon abuse all week and it's left me with no voice. But I am not to be held back. I am undaunted. This is such an important story that we've been working around the clock for the past week to prepare an entire series. Yesterday, we rebroadcast an episode of a thoughtful faith podcast with Dr. Gina Colvin interviewing Timothy Kosnoff, who is one of the world leaders in suing the Mormon church and and other churches over abuse. And we, Gerardo and Jen and I did commentary, but it was a really important article kind of giving an overview of the Mormon Church and abuse. We're going to be having Timothy Koff in studio tomorrow morning to both talk about the AP case and the state of the church's handling of abuse since his interview with Gina Colvin. And we're also going to be talking about the Boy Scouts of America class action lawsuit. And it'll be the first time Tim's ever done kind of a high quality video audio in studio kind of interview, I think, anywhere. So we're really excited for tomorrow. I. I don't know that there's any attorney in the world. I don't know of any attorney in the world who's sued the Mormon Church more on behalf of sexual victims than Tim. If there is. If there is one, I don't know about that person. So tomorrow's gonna be great today for this episode. This afternoon, we are super excited to have as my writing shotgun partner, Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:55] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Gerardo's been a producer on many of our recent episodes and he has been a co producer on this one. Thanks for being here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] For sitting in Jen's seat because Jen is excused. She is on vacation with her family. And thanks for helping us make this happen.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:13] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Anything you want to say?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:15] No, I'm excited to just start reading the article.

An Actual Attorney on "The Doctors"

John Dehlin [00:02:20] All right. Well, we are super lucky because we, you know, it'd be fine if Gerardo and I just gave our commentary, but it's really cool to have an actual attorney who is licensed to practice in Utah with us. And we have him here today. We discovered him on TikTok, but believe it or not, attorneys sometimes are on TikTok. And our guest today is Brenton Erickson. Hey, Brenton.

Brenton Erickson [00:02:49] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] You are a licensed Attorney in Utah, Is that right?

Brenton Erickson [00:02:54] Yes. Yep. I work on criminal defense cases here in Utah for indigent defendants.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Yeah. And you attended law school at the University of Michigan?

Brenton Erickson [00:03:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] I think that's cool because I. When I applied to law school, I looked up the top law schools in Michigan's right up there in the top 10, right?

Brenton Erickson [00:03:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Yeah, yeah. So go Wolverines.

Brenton Erickson [00:03:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] What do you think about UCLA and USC joining the Big Ten? I'd like your opinion on that.

Brenton Erickson [00:03:20] I am too gay to know.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Okay. I was totally kidding. I like to tell a joke here and there when I can. Anyway, we want to also welcome all our. Our viewing audience. We have people joining us both on Facebook and on YouTube. Gerardo is going to be monitoring your comments and sharing them as it makes sense. But we're super glad and we. We look forward to your contributions as viewers and listeners on. On. On YouTube and Facebook. Please feel free to subscribe to us on YouTube and Facebook. Like us, of course. The Super Chat feature is a. An option you have where you can donate to support this program. You can click on the Stars feature on Facebook or the super chat feature on YouTube and donate. And your contributions will support Gerardo and Jen and the studio and all the good. So let's jump into it. Before we actually jump into the article, Brenton, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself and why you feel so passionately and why you're tiktoking like mad about this case.

Brenton on the LDS Church Case

Brenton Erickson [00:04:31] So I was raised Mormon in Arizona. Actually, I attended BYU for my undergrad, which is why I'm really grateful to have gone to the University of Michigan. So I can say Wolverines instead of Cougars now. And yeah, I served a mission. Being raised as a gay Latter Day Saint, you just get a passion for correcting injustices. I think that translated a little bit into my professional work as well. And I don't know, it's. Yeah, this case has interested both me as a. A Mormon, you know, former Mormon, complicated relationship with the church, but also my. My legal interest. I think it's just interesting to see what the church chooses to say and chooses not to say, and others as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] Yeah. Yeah. And your tiktoks tell us what your tiktoks are about and what your channel is.

Brenton Erickson [00:05:23] My handle is Lawn the Prophets, which is a little bit of a Bible nerd joke for anyone out there. But yeah, it covers everything from just ex Mormon content to progressive Christian content to gay LDS content. Like, you know, life. Nothing weird. Yeah, yeah, it's a. It's a hodgepodge and some singing. Because attorneys have hobbies as well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Wait, so you do show tunes?

Brenton Erickson [00:05:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] Is that your thing?

Brenton Erickson [00:05:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Favorite musical? I have to ask.

Brenton Erickson [00:05:53] Favorite musical. Yeah, I have to say Wicked, which is. It's too boring. But when you're my age and it's just. Yeah. Quintessential.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Are you Elphaba or are you Glinda? Which one?

Brenton Erickson [00:06:02] Elphaba, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] All right, just checking. Just checking. I am also Alphaba, so that's kind of weird.

Brenton Erickson [00:06:08] Just like a little angry sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] We're flying high. We're defying gravity. Well, you're defying gravity being a, an attorney in, in Utah. That's awesome. So do you want to talk about you're kind of like your expertise at all? And even if, if it applies to this, and if it doesn't, that's fine, too.

What's Your Specialization In Civil Litigation?

Brenton Erickson [00:06:27] My ex, I work in criminal defense, so I guess I have a little more experience with the kind of sensitive topics that can come up when dealing with a criminal defendant. I. So I do want to say I, I don't work in civil litigation. So this article's focus on civil lawsuit and other things, I, I can't speak from personal experience to that, just from general experience in law school and such.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:51] Right. Awesome.

AP article on sexual abuse in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Okay. Well, for those who don't know recently and the, the name of the. The author and the date isn't on the article.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:05] Mike Resendes.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Yeah, Mike Resendes. So a few days ago, the Associated Press released an article entitled 7 Years of Sex Abuse, How Mormon Officials Let It Happen. And it was written by a really important journalist named Michael Resendez. Is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] And for those who don't know, Michael Resendez is at least one of the reporters who is closely associated with the Spotlight scandal in the Catholic Church. I don't know if he's working for the Boston Globe at the time, but if you've not seen Spotlight, you really need to see it. It's not just an important topic. It's one of the best movies ever made. I think I won an Academy Award. But it talked about how difficult it was. Even though there was, like, systemic pedophilia in the Catholic Church amongst priests, something like 9% of priests worldwide, some crazy high percentage, and that they were being reassigned after they were, you know, found to be abusers and just repeat abuse, it was still incredibly hard for journalists to be able to prove the story to the point where they didn't have to, I don't know, fear for being sued for libel or defamation it's great, it's a great movie. And, and it's also a true story. And this, this journalist is now looking into Mormonism. And so what we're going to be doing today, this, this article from the Associated Press has really hit the Mormon world by storm. It's been covered in, redistributed in newspapers all across the country and across the world. And so as a part of this multi episode feature, because we know abuse is so problematic in the Mormon Church, for this episode, we're going to read this AP article sentence by sentence and we are going to respond to it, me, Gerardo and Brenton. And then we're going to read the church's response by both their formal response and the article written by Tad Walch of the Deseret News and respond to that. And then there may be an article or two else that we respond to and we're just going to kind of talk about the article. Is that all right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:15] Y.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] And what else do. What else Brenton and Herard to do is just to kind of stop me when their blood boils or when they feel super motivated to make a comment. And specifically, Brenton, as an expert. Why are you laughing when I say expert? You are an attorney.

Brenton Erickson [00:09:32] No, it's just one of, you know, being young.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] Young people are smart these days. They're like, my kids are all smarter than me, I can tell you that. So we like young people and they're usually smarter than us. So anyway, as an actual attorney in Utah and who's familiar with Mormonism and who cares about this topic, we're looking forward to your feedback. Is that all right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:52] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Here we go. And of course, Gerardo is going to be monitoring the comments and sharing them as, as they come up. And I'll read them as, as it makes sense. So seven years of sex abuse. How Mormon officials let it happen. This is out of Bisbee, Arizona. From the Associated Press. MJ was a tiny black haired girl just five years old when her father admitted to his bishop that he was sexually abusing her. The father, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and and an admitted pornography addict, was in counseling with his bishop when he revealed the abuse. The bishop, who was also a family physician, followed church policy and called what church officials have dubbed the helpline for guidance. But the call offered little help for MJ lawyers for the church, widely known as the Mormon Church, who staffed the helpline around the clock. The told Bishop John Herod not to call police or child welfare officials. Instead, he Kept the abuse secret. Quote, they said you absolutely can do nothing. Close quote. Herod said. This is Bishop, Herod said in a recorded interview with law enforcement. Bishop Herod continued to counsel MJ's father, Paul Douglas Adams for another year and brought in Adams's wife, Lisa Adams, in hopes she would do something to protect the children. She didn't, Herod later told a second bishop who also kept the matter secret after consulting with church officials who maintained that the bishops were excused from reporting the abuse to police under the state's so called clergy penitent privilege.

Utah law on clergy sex abuse

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:48] I think.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Should we stop?

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] All right. So you got something to say, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:54] Yeah. I would like expert here. Yeah. To explain what the clergy penitent privilege is as. As you understand it.

Brenton Erickson [00:12:04] So the clergy penitent privilege is what lawyers call a testimonial privilege, which means that if you have the privilege, you can prevent certain conversations from being testified about by certain people, like on the stand. So in a deposition and trial and a quick summary just based on what was just read, from what I understand, Utah's clergy penitent privilege is similar to Arizona's in that or, sorry, the connection between the mandatory reporting law and the clergy penitent privilege. So bishops in a lot of states are mandatory reporters, but then there will be a carve out where if the only way they know of the abuse is through confidential confession from like as in their role as a priest or as bishop, then it's often left up to them. So their mandatory reporter, if they're a bishop and they see abuse just happening in the hallway like, just like any other person, they have to report. But there's often a carve out for confessions.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] And what is the status of mandatory reporting as far as, you know, in Utah as it relates to clergy?

Brenton Erickson [00:13:14] Very similar to what the AP describes in Arizona.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:18] So.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] So I'm looking at, I'm looking at a little chart here and I don't know if it's totally relevant, but it lists Utah as clergy, not enumerated as mand mandated reporters, but may be included with, quote, any person designation. And it's saying that that's slightly different than Arizona where it says clergy are enumerated as mandatory reporters. Does that mean that chart is wrong?

Brenton Erickson [00:13:46] Possibly not that I know of. I think so. I think people might miss that. That is kind of a distinction without a difference in the sense that a bishop is any person. So if the bishop is not acting as a bishop and it's just. And sees the abuse just as any person, then they do have responsibility to report. The Arizona law is a little strange in that it names clergy but then gives them the exact carve out that clergy would want. So it names clergy, but gives them the carve out.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:14] So if you go back to the chart at the top of the chart, it says that in Utah, privilege is granted under pastoral communications. So if the bishop in Utah hears about the abuse in a pastoral communication, they get the privilege of withholding the information from the police.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Yeah. And we can, we, we, we talked quite a bit yesterday about, from the church's standpoint, why they would want there to be clergy privilege. And I don't want to go into that today as much. We'll also maybe talk about it in some of these responses. But can you talk about is there a good legal reason why there should be a clergy penitent privilege in your, in your mind, you mean at all?

Clergy Penitent Privileges

Brenton Erickson [00:15:05] Yeah, yeah. I think it's the same reasons people give for the attorney client privilege for privileges with doctors and therapists. Our legal system has long valued a certain amount of privacy and really important situations and conversations. So the reason people often give for the clergy penitent privileges, kind of a combination of religious freedom and also just the ability to have sensitive conversations with a spiritual advisor and know that those will be kept private. Yeah, I think there are good legal reasons. I think this article and this whole situation really tests the limit of that. So, like, I personally, I see value in a clergy penitent privilege in the more general cases. I think it's fair for religious people to want to be able to have that guidance from a spiritual advisor. But these extreme situations really test like how much society is willing to deal with that.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Yeah, I guess, you know, I deal with mandatory, I dealt with mandatory reporting when I was, you know, pursuing my PhD in psychology. And you basically had to report as a therapist if you felt like the life of your, of your client was in imminent danger or if you felt like your client was a danger to somebody else. And then you were a mandatory reporter.

Brenton Erickson [00:16:34] Yes. And therapists, I think they're the ideal example. They actually give a warning, usually at the start of any relationship, giving exactly what would not be confidential. And so it really, then it comes up to the person with my experience with confessions in the LDS Church, you know, you just go in there and you start talking. There's no, the bishop isn't going to like, lay out for you the parameters of the legal privilege or. Yeah, just start talking.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Yeah. Every time I initiated a relationship with a client, I started by saying if you Tell me you're gonna. You're. You're of imminent harm to yourself or others, I have to report you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:09] And how about lawyers? Do lawyers get that privilege as well? Where, like, if they know the client might harm someone, are they mandatory reporters or not?

John Dehlin [00:17:21] For attorney client privilege, yes.

Brenton Erickson [00:17:23] This gets complicated. So lawyers deal both with. And so do therapists. We have attorney client privilege, which is a testimonial privilege, which means that I can refuse to testify in court about things that, you know, I only learned because the client was talking to me in confidence and vice versa. Like, the client can prevent me from testifying about those things. But lawyers also have ethical rules. So even though the testimonial privilege is just about court proceedings, I also cannot divulge what I learn in confidence from a client generally without violating my own ethical rules. But then there are exceptions. So when it comes to situations like my memory is. Situations like imminent harm to someone, child sex abuse, potentially. Yeah. So you could, you could go to Utah's professional rules and lists certain exceptions, but often the exceptions just leave it up to you. The attorney may.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] Okay.

Brenton Erickson [00:18:13] And so. So that way, if you do report, you're not going to be disbarred. Like, you're not violating your ethical rules, but it still doesn't force you to.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [00:18:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] That sounds like Arizona, basically.

Brenton Erickson [00:18:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] With the clergy.

Brenton Erickson [00:18:23] Yes. I think the privilege is more important with attorneys, but yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I was just wondering if from a, let's say a law enforcement standpoint, policemen, judges, the judicial system, the protection of children, are you aware of any case to be made for a clergy penitent, you know, privilege for the judicial system itself? Or is it just something that religions do to be able to protect themselves, basically, or to be able to earnestly pursue their theological or doctrinal beliefs?

Brenton Erickson [00:19:03] Could you clarify the question? What do you mean by the judicial system or police pursuing it?

John Dehlin [00:19:07] I'm just wondering if there's any. If the, If. If police officers or judges or advocates of children would ever say, oh, yeah, we totally love the. Not from a religious standpoint, but from a victim's rights standpoint or from a judicial system standpoint, if any of those people not influenced by religion

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:30] were.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Were sort of like to weigh in on whether or not a clergy penitent privilege was a good thing from a secular standpoint. Do you have a sense for.

Brenton Erickson [00:19:41] I think you'll get all sorts of.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Okay, okay.

Brenton Erickson [00:19:43] And I think I. They'd inevitably be influenced by, you know, the. The judge or police officer who belongs to a denomination that has the privilege, I think they would understand that. But I also think in these really difficult cases, a lot of them would also understand why at some point it seems to be too much.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Okay. All right, let's continue with the article. So Adams continued raping. I should give a content warning. We're going to be talking about rape and assault, very sensitive things, even death by suicide. So please take care of yourselves and take care of anyone who's listening or viewing this appropriately, because we're going to be talking about some heavy things. So Adams continued raping MJ for as many as seven more years into her adolescence and also abused her infant sister who was born during that time. He frequently recorded the abuse on video and posted the video on the Internet. Adams was finally arrested by Homeland security agents in 2017 with no help from the Mormon Church after law enforcement officials in New Zealand discovered one of the videos. He, meaning Adams, died by suicide in custody before he could stand trial. The Associated Press has obtained nearly 12, 000 pages of sealed records from an unrelated child sex abuse lawsuit against the Mormon Church in West Virginia. The documents offer the most detailed and comprehensive look yet at the so called helpline Herod called families of survivors who filed the lawsuit said they show it's part of a system that can easily be misused by church leaders to divert abuse accusations away from law enforcement and instead to church attorneys who may bury the problem, leaving victims in harm's way. Okay, do we want to take a minute to talk about the fact that this West Virginia case with the documents that were sealed and that they must have been leaked somehow to the reporter? Do we want to talk about that, that the implications of that for the story at all?

Mormon Church sex abuse hotline documents released

How Do Documents Get Sealed in Courts?

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:06] I have a question like how do documents get sealed? And is that something that a. The. Who requests the ceiling of.

Brenton Erickson [00:22:16] Generally, one of the parties requests it and I assume, I mean, I guess, you know, in these kinds of cases, because there's a lot of personal information, you know, both parties might have an interest, but a party who wants them sealed would ask the judge. And then each state has, you know, factors for whether or not things should be sealed, and the judge decides whether to do that. And judges also, like here in Utah, judges can decide if a case has really substantial public interest. Like they. They have to decide kind of on an individual basis what things reporters should have access to and whatnot.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Yeah, I see. So in this case, the, the victims in West Virginia, members of the Mormon Church who were affected by the rampant abuse there, they would have sued The Mormon Church. And we're getting, we're becoming successful in the lawsuit. And so after the church tried to kill the case once, it couldn't kill the case and they felt like there was a high risk of losing the, the Mormon Church would have settled with, with the plaintiffs and paid them a bunch of money.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:19] We know that's what happened because it's reported.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Yeah. And they would have. And they would have part of the settlement. The church would have requested that, that these records be sealed and, and not made available to the public. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:35] Possibly.

Brenton Erickson [00:23:35] I think they might have requested that even just at the start of the litigation. Yeah. And part of the settlement agreement might have included that they remain sealed.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Yes. So what is it? How could they be leaked?

Brenton Erickson [00:23:46] Someone who has. That's the only way. And then the newspaper has to decide. I am, I'm not at all like familiar with journalist law and really journalists, actually, technically journalists don't have a different First Amendment privilege from other people. But then the newspaper has to decide whether it will face liability for publishing it or whether it's going to have a good enough reason for a court. And yeah, apparently they, they made that calculation.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:12] So it's a big deal. Like I think Mike Resend is talked about it on an interview. That's, that's how they got it. You got leaked. They tried to go the legal way to have a judge unsealed them, but then that would take too long. And in the meantime, while they were doing that, someone just gave them the. Yeah, the files.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Yeah. And we're super grateful that happened.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Because it's the way we know about a lot of this stuff. Okay, so now we'll talk about the helpline in quotes. Helpline. The helpline. Why are you laughing? I'm kidding. The helpline has been criticized by abuse victims and their attorneys for being inadequate to quickly stop abuse and protect victims. Yet the Utah based Faith has stuck by the system despite the criticism and increasing scrutiny from attorneys and prosecutors, including those in the Adams case. Quote, I just think that the Mormon Church really sucks. Seriously sucks, says M.J. she's the. She's one of the two victims in this case who is now 16 during an interview with the Associated Press. Quote, they are just the worst type of people from what I've experienced and what other people have also experienced. Close quote. MJ and her adoptive mother asked the AP to use only her initials in part because videos of her abuse posted by her father are still circulating on the Internet. The AP does not publish the names of sexual abuse survivors without their consent. William Molodone, an attorney rep. An attorney, an Arizona attorney representing the bishops and the church in a lawsuit filed by, by three of Adam's six children, told the AP last month that the bishops were not required to report the abuse. Quote, these bishops did nothing wrong. They didn't violate the law and therefore they can't be held liable, he said. Maladone referred to the suit as a, quote, money grab. Now the article is going to go on to talk about what the bishops did and didn't do and how they were advised. But yeah, do you have any, I mean, do we want to respond to the idea that number one, the bishops did nothing wrong just in an overview way. Would you agree that the bishops did nothing wrong and is, is the suit just a money grab? How would you respond to those two claims? BRENTON

The Mormon Church's Sexual Abuse Helpline

Brenton Erickson [00:26:35] I think, you know, when speaking in a legal sense that the church's lawyers, it appears, are making this full throated because they were not absolutely required to do so under the law. They did nothing wrong. But even a later statement from them acknowledges that plenty of like regular people could argue about whether or not that was ethical or whether that was the right thing to do. There's a difference between what is legal and what is best or ideal or good. Right. So I think they're kind of hiding behind the fact that it wasn't legally required and then calling. I think it's a really, just from a litigation and also public relations standpoint, it's a really dangerous strategy to call this lawsuit a money grab. When everyone gets to read the facts of what happened. That's just, that's kind of shocking to me.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:20] Yeah, that's kind of what how I felt because I skimmed through the article the first time, didn't read all the details of what had happened to the girls. And I read that quote and I was like, okay, that's, that's kind of bad. And then when I read the article and learned the actual abuse, I was like that quote is horrible.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] Yeah, we're talking about a six week old baby that was sexually abused.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:43] Recorded, posted on the Internet rec.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Recorded. Posted on the Internet. We're going to talk later about, you know, in the article about what some of the symptoms, psychological symptoms are at least of the second child. But okay, so that's, that's kind of.

Brenton Erickson [00:28:00] Yeah, I think it's bad for public relations. Shocking to call it a money grab. And also lawsuits, civil litigation are commonly used as a strategy to change the behavior of institutions like the LDS Church of corporations, of Businesses. So this is. These lawsuits are not always just about the money. These victims are often trying to get actual policy changes out of these organizations. And one of the ways you do you do that is just by suing in the first place. And we've just seen recently with the Alex Jones case, you know, in the punitive damages there, lawsuits can be used to send a message to other organizations, to other similar individuals that there can be consequences for. It's. So it's not just about the money.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] It's the only way to hold corporations liable, as I know that.

Brenton Erickson [00:28:41] I know in some situations, if the actions aren't criminal.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] Yeah, yeah. Is it at all weird that the bishop and the church are represented by the same attorney? I mean, I would. I. You know, because part of me is wondering, like, wait, shouldn't the bishop have his own attorney and then the church is represented separately, or is it in the bishop's advantage or disadvantage to be represented by church attorneys?

Are the Lawyers Representing the Bishops in Sexual Abuse Cases?

Brenton Erickson [00:29:08] I think for most people, it's an advantage to have someone else pay for your attorney.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Okay, but if the attorney's looking out for you.

Brenton Erickson [00:29:15] Yes. And the. I think from what I understand, including from that recent podcast from Tim, corporations have agents. Right. And so Tim's understanding with all these lawsuits with the LDS Church is that the LDS Church insists that the bishops are agents, and it seems that that's likely under corporate law. So when the lawyers are representing the bishops in their roles as bishops and based on their actions as bishops, then they're agents of the corporation. So they are all kind of the same, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [00:29:46] But there is a fair question of is the bishop's, like, personal interest just as a person being fully represented? I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:54] Mike Resendes mentioned that this, at least the first bishop is a. I mean, it's on the article. He's a doctor, and that's being called into question as well as in. In the lawsuit, because, like, he was the doctor of the mother of the girls that were abused. So he probably didn't only learn about the abuse as a bishop, but also probably in his medical practice as well.

Brenton Erickson [00:30:24] Oh, that's very interesting. I mean, the church's argument would be it matters what hat he's wearing. So in the confession, he's a bishop. But if he did learn of it as a doctor, that is a really interesting issue.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] I guess I'm curious if it's just a matter of fact that the church is liable. The Mormon Church, the corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints if they're liable for the actions of bishops, because it seems like the church likes to say it's a local matter. We didn't do it here at headquarters.

Brenton Erickson [00:30:53] You can see from the fact that in this article, they insist that communications between bishops and their lawyers are attorney client privileged. From the fact that they represent bishops in cases like this. No, they consider. It seems like they consider the bishops agents. So if the bishop is acting in their official capacity, then, yeah, the church could be liable for those actions. So that's why they're going to have their lawyers talk to them. That's why they're going to represent them.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] Okay, that's a good point. Okay. The article continues. In his AP interview, Maladone also insisted Herod did not know. So attorney Maladon insisted that Bishop Herod did not know that Adam was continually continuing to sexually assault his daughter after learning of the abuse in a single counseling session. But in the recorded interview with the agent obtained by the Associated Press, Bishop Herod said he asked Lisa Adams in multiple sessions if the abuse was ongoing and asked her, what are we going to do to stop it? Quote, at least for a period of time, I assumed they had stopped things, but. And then I never asked if they picked up again. So would the attorney just be. Do we even. How could we know if the attorney was just lying, saying that the bishop kind of, you know, didn't know that there was continuing sexual abuse? How would we know if the. The attorney was lying, mis. Ms. Speaking to the public or was actually just didn't know what the AP ended up knowing?

Brenton Erickson [00:32:22] That's the question. You have to know what they actually knew when they gave that testimony. And maybe lawyers could make arguments about, you know, what the wife supposedly said in the confession, like, whether that actually meant he knew or, like, had an idea, you know, but you'd have to know exactly what the lawyer knew.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] All right. Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:42] How about. How about that idea that. So that. That the lawyer told the bishop to not report it and that he couldn't do anything about it, and that legally, I think it says that. Or the bishop said on a recording with the law enforcement that he was told that legally it was illegal for him to go and report the abuse.

Brenton Erickson [00:33:08] That's. So the quote I remember is that you absolutely can do nothing. Was there another.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] Yeah, we're getting there, right? We're gonna get there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:13] All right.

Brenton Erickson [00:33:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Is that all right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:14] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] All right. So the Adams family lived on a lonely dirt road about eight miles from the center of Bisbee, an old copper mining town in southeastern Arizona north, known today for its antique shops and laid back attitude. Far from prying eyes, the Adams home, a three bedroom open concept affair surrounded by desert, was often littered with piles of clothing and containers of lubricant Adams used to sexually abuse his children. According to legal documents reviewed by the ap, Paul's wife, Lisa. And I'm just trying to imagine like visiting teachers or home teachers or ministers visiting this home. It's just. It's kind of disturbing.

The Mormon Father Who Abused His Daughter

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] Paul's wife, Lisa, assumed most of the child rearing responsibilities, including getting their six children off to school and chauffeuring them to church and religious instruction on Sundays. Paul, who worked for the U.S. border Patrol, spent much of his time online looking at porn, often with his children watching or wandering the house naked or in nothing but his underwear. I didn't realize there were six kids, so we've only talked about two who were abused. But the chances that only two were abused is probably low. It's probably likely there were more.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:34] These are the only two kids that ended up in adoptive families. The other ones went to other family members. Yeah, that's my understanding of closed ranks.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] And didn't want to sue the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:45] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Yeah, okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:48] Could be.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Okay. All right. So this is describing Paul, the. The perpetrator. He had a short fuse and would frequently throw things, yell at his wife and beat his kids. Quote. He just had this explosive personality, said Sean War, a border patrol agent and a Mormon who worked with Paul and described herself as Lisa's best friend. Quote, he had a horrible temper. Close quote. Paul was more relaxed while coaxing his older daughter and this is graphic. To hold a smartphone camera and record him while he sexually abused her. He also seemed to revel in the abuse in online chat rooms where he once bragged that he had, quote, the perfect lifestyle, Close quote. Because he could have sex with his daughters whenever he pleased while his wife knew and quote, doesn't care. Close quote. He would later tell investigators the abuse was a compulsion he couldn't stop. Quote. I got into something too deep that I just couldn't pull myself out of. He said, I'm not trying to say that the devil made me do it. Berardo, did you want to say something?

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:59] Just a comment really quick of someone saying that. The AP had a longer video of the interview, and they interviewed a woman in the ward who said that visiting teachers brought up concerns about what they'd seen in the home. So, yeah, he was not just the

John Dehlin [00:36:16] bishop so thank you, Emily White, for those comments. We love the comments, everybody. Please keep them coming. Thanks, Gerardo, for monitoring them. Yeah, sounds like just kind of a horrible guy. And there's gonna be horrible people in and out of Mormonism, in and out of religion, but this guy was pretty horrible. Okay. The article continues. The Adams family was deeply involved in the Mormon community, and on Sundays, they attended services in Bisby. So Adams turned to his church and to Bishop Herod when he sought help and revealed his abuse of mj. Does that matter? I mean, the way it's reporting it here is he initially confesses. That's kind of relevant, right. When it comes into the kind of the clergy penitent privilege, it's different if somebody else, you know, a family member tells on the abuser to a bishop versus if the abuser themselves confessed to the bishop. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:21] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [00:37:21] I think legally speaking, if the abuser themselves confesses to the bishop, the clergy penitent privileges way more clear. It seems, though, at least that the Tim attorney from that other podcast, he seemed to have experiences that suggested that the church claims the privilege, I mean, for lots of conversations with bishops. So I'm not sure if they would. I'm not sure if they would try to claim it for a private conversation with someone who's not involved in the abuse at all and is just telling the bishop, like, reporting it. But the person telling the bishop is likely a mandatory reporter. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's very complicated because I watched

Mormon Bishop Says Church Officials Said Clergy Penitent Privilege

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:51] your TikTok where you talked about the clergy pending, and where did it come from? Can you just explain really quick? You know, the Catholic Church and.

Brenton Erickson [00:37:59] Yeah, so the origin is with, like, medieval Catholic Church law. There's nothing really in the Bible about it. There's also nothing in LDS canon. There was a byu, like, academic article admitting that it's really a matter of policy. There's nothing scriptural about confidentiality and confessions. And then later on that medieval Catholic Church law becomes part of English common law, then American common law, and now every state has a statute that has clergy penitent privilege. And they're all slightly different to some extent, but every state has some version of it.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] All right, Herod. This is Bishop Herod. Right. Later told Homeland Security agent Robert Edwards he knew from the start that Lisa Adams was unlikely to stop her husband after he called her into the counseling sessions. The bishop, who was also Lisa's personal physician, said she seemed pretty emotionally dead when her husband recounted his abuse of their daughter. The bishop also recognized the harm being done to mj, quote, I doubt she will ever do well. Close quote, he said in his recorded interview with Homeland Security agents. Herod also told Edwards that when he called the helpline, church officials told him the state's clergy penitent privilege ruled required him to keep Adam's abuse confidential. Okay, really quickly, I think it's relevant to mention that the bishop was also the physician. You mentioned this a little bit earlier in the program, but in many, many states, doctors, like psychologists, are mandatory reporters. So the fact that this bishop had kind of a dual role probably increased the. The need for the bishop to report this to authorities. I. I'm. We're probably speculating there, but that's what

Brenton Erickson [00:39:47] I would guess we're speculating. I think if he, I don't know, remember the reference, but if he really did, if he learned about abuse separately in his role as a doctor, that. That is a totally different story.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Okay.

Brenton Erickson [00:39:57] Than learning about it just through confessions.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] I'm not. Is that true? Are you a mandatory reporter? Only off the clock when you know.

Brenton Erickson [00:40:06] So that's. That's the difficulty. So, for example, here in Utah, I, as an attorney, am not a mandatory reporter. If I only learn of something like this through actual confidential client communications, but if I learn about it, not as a lawyer, like I'm not this person's lawyer and someone just tells me or I see it, then I'm a mandatory reporter. So it matters. What role am I in when that happens? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Okay. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:29] Wow. Yeah. That sentence there, it says the bishop also recognized the harm being done to mj. And I wonder if that means that the bishop found out about, you know, saw the abuse while being the physician of Lisa. And that's like as a doctor or

Brenton Erickson [00:40:50] who knows, or just an acknowledgment that he understands the, the consequences.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] Yeah, but there's the. But there's the rub. And we're going to get into it. But it says that when, when Bishop Herod calls the helpline, the church officials, the lawyers, the paralegals, whoever on the. The Kurt McConkey Mormon Church Helpline told him the state's clergy penitent privilege required him to keep Adam's abuse confidential. Do you have a response to that?

Brenton Erickson [00:41:19] The eight. So I. I'm not licensed to practice in Arizona, but I'll Refer to the AP's explanation of Arizona law. The AP thought it was pretty clear that in Arizona, in this specific setting with confessions, it's up to the bishop whether or not they want to report. So the. So if the bishop was under the impression that he absolutely could not report, then that would be a miss. It seems like that would be a misstatement of Arizona law. And there. There might be some confusion between what the bishop thought, like the impression the bishop got, what he felt was being said to him, and the careful words lawyers would be using, if that makes sense. Like the quote, you absolutely can do nothing could be taken as you. You shouldn't do anything. And also the law allows you to know. You know, it gets.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Yeah, you can do nothing. Can mean don't do anything.

Brenton Erickson [00:42:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Or it can mean, hey, you're. You're off. You don't have to report. It can mean either one.

Brenton Erickson [00:42:08] Yeah. And you could leave it purposefully ambiguous.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] Yeah, yeah. For me, I think this is really the crux of the matter because the Mormon Church is claiming that it does everything it can to support and help victims. And I would think that in all the states where clergy are allowed to report if they want to, that the helpline, the Kurt McConkey, that the church and its attorneys would always by default say, not, oh, you don't have to report, so don't report. Instead, they would say, oh, you have the option of reporting. You can report, so do report. And there's no indication that they do the latter. Correct.

Brenton Erickson [00:42:50] Right. I think that's the most important part of this, of this article and of the Church's response is that they kind of hide behind legal complications. A lot of people don't understand. And they're not forward with the fact that in some of these cases, they're making a decision. They're making a decision when they absolutely have the ability to.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:07] And what's the decision?

Brenton Erickson [00:43:09] That in these situations where it's up to the bishop to decide whether or not to report, they can absolutely report. They could advise the bishop to report. They could encourage him to.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:18] And they're deciding to not. Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [00:43:20] I mean, it seems fair to say that from this article. And the church's own. The Deseret News's own response kind of gave that version as a given that. That based on the advice from church lawyers, the bishop encouraged the abuser and his wife to report, but did not report him. Like, based on the advice.

Mormon Church Proactively Encourages Clergy to Not Report

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:38] And Brendan can't say this, but I'll say it. My understanding is that there's not a state in the country where clergy would be held liable for reporting abuse even if they learned it as a. As a bishop or as a clergy. So, like, a bishop can't, you know, be sued? Well, camp.

Brenton Erickson [00:44:02] Yeah, apparently they can be Sued. Because there was a case where somebody actually sued a bishop for reporting.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] Yeah, but there's not a lot sue for anything.

Brenton Erickson [00:44:09] Yeah, exactly. It's like. That's what I meant, that lawsuit. It's likely that a judge under public policy would just say that this dumb

John Dehlin [00:44:16] lawsuit, because in Oregon, clergy are mand mandated reporters. When the church brings that up, it feels disingenuous. And we'll get to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just, I just want to say when the church, when the Mormon Church, through its helpline, through Curtin McConkey and the attorneys, when it defaults to, oh, bishop, you have the option of reporting, so don't. When it defaults to that versus you have the option of reporting, so absolutely do. When it defaults to the former, whose benefit is it most likely protecting or bolstering?

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:51] If.

Brenton Erickson [00:44:51] When it goes to the former, if it really goes to the former, they're making a choice to prioritize the confidentiality of the abuser's confession over the needs of the victim. That is a choice.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] And who. Who benefits the most from that prioritization?

Brenton Erickson [00:45:04] The abuser. And according to the article, their religious

John Dehlin [00:45:06] needs, which is not just the abuser.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:09] Also.

Brenton Erickson [00:45:10] Yes, also the. I mean, that's what's weird to me in some of these cases, like in this case, according to the ap, if the bishop really just calls the helpline the very first time they learn of it from a confession, I don't, I don't really see how there could be much of a liability concern for the church. They could just say, immediately report. I mean, the bishop just learned about it. It didn't happen in a church building. It's not connected to a church client. It's just a, it's just a, A father doing it at home. The bishop just learns about it. I don't see what the liability concern is. So, so that, that's, It's. Of course, sometimes the church has its own liability concerns, but in that situation, there's not even really a liability concern, and they're just making a choice, which makes it worse.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:50] Yeah, it's in a moral. In a. When you see it, like as an ethical moral.

Brenton Erickson [00:45:55] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Yeah. Like, I just want people to pay attention to. When the church proactively encourages bishops that could report to not report, even when the law allows it, are they really looking out for the best interest of the victims and their families and making the kids safe, or are they protecting their, the war chest? Are they protecting their reputation? And are they protecting the perpetrators?

Brenton Erickson [00:46:23] I feel the church also has a history of protecting its legal rights, whether it's religious exemptions. So the fact that right now, denominations enjoy this. This privilege and confidentiality, I think they sometimes have a tendency to. To protect those, even in situations like this, where it's like, maybe there should be a different policy for extreme.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] But they just need to drop the rhetoric that they are all about the victims first and foremost.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] And I think that's at the crux of all this. Okay, so the article goes on to say, but the law required no such thing. Arizona's child sex abuse reporting law and similar laws in more than 20 states that. That require clergy to report child sex abuse and neglect says that clergy, physicians, nurses, or anyone caring for a child who reasonably believes a child has been abused or neglected has a legal obligation to report the information to police or the state department of child safety. But it also says that clergy who receive information about child neglect or sexual abuse during spiritual confessions may withhold that information from authorities. And I'll say it again. May withhold that information from authorities if the clergy determine it is reasonable and necessary. And this is Gerardo's favorite three words under church doctrine. So then the question is, is it Mormon doctrine, right, That a bishop or a stake president has some compelling reason to not report the sexual abuse of a child to local authorities? Right.

Brenton Erickson [00:48:00] Yeah, that's. It's interesting the statute words it that way. I think there's probably a lot of judges who would, because of religious freedom concerns, would say that the denomination gets to decide what its doctrine is. But it's interesting to see the words of that statute, like, right alongside the fact that there's actually nothing in scripture, is more of a. It's more of just an decision by current leaders.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Now, Gerardo, I know you've been thinking a lot about this, and I've read this article. I don't think it mentions it. Do we have any information about the Mormon Church's attempt to justify doctrinally why the reporting of child rape is against Mormon doctrine or in some way?

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:44] No, I think Brenton mentioned that you

Brenton Erickson [00:48:46] have a quote from the director of that risk management department. But no, there. No, the church doesn't like to talk about this. So of course there's not some general conference quote about. Even in really crazy cases like this, we're not gonna.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] There's no. Jesus said unto. You know, Joseph Smith once said, like Doctrine and Covenants says, yeah, do not. Do not, you know, report child sex. Report child sex abuse to police officers. Like we mentioned, this Yesterday. But what we have is Jesus. Any of you want to tell us what Jesus said? If anyone harm a child, they can't

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:19] quote it in English.

Brenton Erickson [00:49:20] They'll put a have better to have a millstone around their neck and thrown into the sea. Although, to be fair, I mean, Jesus the princess.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Jesus is the Prince of peace. Right. So he's not going around saying, tie a rope around someone's neck, tie it to a rock and throw it into the sea. But he did in this case. Right. So if Jesus would say tie a rope around the neck of someone who harms a child and then tie the other end of the rope to a rock and throw it into the sea, that that's better. Would Jesus be okay according to Mormon doctrine of reporting, just reporting reports of child sex abuse to police officers?

What Would Cause the Mormon Church to Not Report Child Sex Abuse?

Brenton Erickson [00:50:00] No. I think it's really interesting that the Church has developed this system of confessions that some things need to be confessed. And it's really that all of that's just been done by leaders over time. It's not in Scripture, so it's. I mean, it's really prominent in Catholicism. But in theory, if LDS prophets and leaders had just never decided to do that, there wouldn't even be a system of confession in the LDS Church like that. That's decisions over time.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:22] I. I do think it would be important for us to just quickly analyze why the Church would prioritize the protection of. Of the perpetrator, especially in this case, where it looks like there was not really any legal liability that the Church could have by reporting this individual. And I think we talked about it a little bit yesterday. In my mind, it has to do with patriarchy, you know, protecting men in the church. You know, men have the priesthood. They have like, more inspiration, more power than maybe women, and therefore, you know, somehow they'll get inspiration from the Holy Ghost to stop the abuse. Also, the idea that, so it looks

John Dehlin [00:51:05] bad, didn't see this, and, and fix it. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:11] There's that, and then there's the atonement idea. Right. That he can fix everything.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] That Jesus suffered for our sins and died on the cross. Yeah. And that. That can make, that. That can make this man whole if he repents and confesses his sins and prays and goes to church and takes the sacrament and read the Scriptures. Jesus can heal pedophiles.

Brenton Erickson [00:51:37] I think that is the theology. I think there's a. There's just like unwillingness to acknowledge the compulsive behavior component of pedophilia, like the major concern there. I think one of the Affidavits that the AP published. The reason stated in court was that, you know, if someone isn't confident that their confession will be confidential, they might not repent, that that's like the policy reason behind making sure that the confession remains confidential. But I agree with Gerardo. I think there are always power dynamics at play. And I think the fact that LDS people feel like they have to talk to a bishop about certain things and that it's kept in that circle, that that also promotes the power of the church and the bishop within the community.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:20] Yeah, but I think.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] Or I was also asking you to speculate a little bit, Brenton. Like, you're an attorney at Curtin McConkey, you're setting up the policies and procedures for this helpline. What would cause an attorney representing the Mormon Church to give this advice in this case?

Brenton Erickson [00:52:38] I think potentially the two things, the one that I already mentioned, that the leaders might sincerely have this belief that you have to keep it confidential so people can repent, which I think they need to, you know, reconsider the limits of that. And second, there's always the PR concern. There's always the PR concern of if you don't absolutely have to, then then why bring up a big allegation that doesn't have to be talked about? That, like, that's. I think those two concerns.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] I mean, isn't it. Is it. Aren't the. Isn't that. I mean, we understood through yesterday, Tim's interview with gina that like, 30 years ago, the church just had a default of reporting to police. Then they implemented this call line or this helpline because, according to Tim, they wanted to get ahead of these cases instead of, like, learning about them through the judicial system and just, like, subpoenas or whatever, they wanted to get ahead of them. So that sort of assumes a pipeline, a steady pipeline of cases. And so if you're the church's law firm, don't you want to start handling that pipeline proactively and weed out as many abuse cases from ever even reaching the judicial system at all? And by having this default of a response which is, oh, you don't have to report, well, then don't report. Doesn't that dramatically reduce the number of cases that will ever end up in court?

Brenton Erickson [00:54:02] Yeah, I think it can have that effect. I just personally struggle to understand in this kind of situation why, when they're really like, when it wasn't a bishop performing the abuse, when. When the church isn't super, like, directly connected to it, it's just a family issue, why Avoid it. I. I don't know if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] You're saying it might not even have been a smart legal thing to do

Brenton Erickson [00:54:21] or a PR thing. Like, why would anyone blame the LDS Church for reporting abuse they just learned about from one of their random members? Every denomination has random members. Like, that's not. That's. I don't think that looks. That puts the LDS Church in a bad light. It happens everywhere. I just. I.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:35] And that's why I think I was kind of mentioning the atonement idea, you know, that God's laws are bigger than man's law, men's laws. So, like, we're just gonna have him go through the God's man, God's law part of it and repentance process. But he's. He's gonna be fine. It is.

Brenton Erickson [00:54:56] It. I think it is difficult for the LDS Church to, in certain cases, think that a bishop can pronounce that someone has repented of something as serious as this, but then have to acknowledge if this ever ended up in court, this person is facing, like, often a minimum of, like, 50. I mean, that's exactly. It's hard to. It's hard to, like, to like, spiritually. We think we have this power to pronounce forgiveness, but if it actually entered the legal system, it would look nothing like that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:17] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Why would it takes for someone 15 years in Yale, you know, to, like, atone legally.

Brenton Erickson [00:55:25] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:25] For. For what he did?

Brenton Erickson [00:55:27] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:27] And basically the church is a couple

Brenton Erickson [00:55:28] years not taking this, not depending on the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] I. Yeah, I mean, I guess there could be just a genuine concern. I'm thinking of the Short Creek raids because I just interviewed someone who took down Orange Jeffs, and she talked about the Short Creek raids. When you put a provider in prison, you know, then the wife and kids in this case have no provider anymore. And certainly Mormon. The Mormon Church doesn't set up women to just step in and become providers. So all of a sudden, this family has no dad at all and no income. Now, some would argue that a. A single mom who's under the, you know, the poverty level, who's, you know, under the poverty level. Having a single mom, a dad in jail under the poverty level is preferable to being systematically raped and abused for seven years. I guess maybe the church feels like it's still better to have a dad in the home. Traditional family, every child deserves a man and a woman in the home. Right, Right.

Is It Better to Have a Single Dad in the Home?

Brenton Erickson [00:56:27] There's also. There's a historical tendency from the church to just avoid the legal system. Right. Because of polygamy, supposedly because of past things. Right. And then there's also. This came up in under the Banner of Heaven. I don't know if the scene for Another Banner of Heaven was factual, but the bishops deciding to send the two girls who are being abused just to someone in the ward instead of reporting to cps. That might have been fictional, but you could see that here in this situation, if the bishop reported because of what the wife had been doing, there was a high chance that the children would be just in CPS custody. Like, lost from the community in general. Not like, because this is because the wife knew. Like, once she knew and wasn't reporting. This was a situation where both parents were going to face consequences.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] So we probably can't answer this today. And this is more of a legal analysis anyway.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] But I mean, it would be interesting to have a discussion about which is worse. Blowing up the family and putting it out in prison or keeping the family intact with a financial provider and then having the kids experience abuse. Like, that's probably a really controversial thing to say.

Brenton Erickson [00:57:26] I think in extreme cases like this, it's pretty obvious what the answer is. I think when it's a little more nuanced and everyone knows the foster care system is also complicated, you know, you could have arguments, but in this kind

John Dehlin [00:57:35] of case, I. Yeah, yeah, this is pretty obvious. Okay. In 2012. This is the article continuing. In 2012, when Herod Bishop Herod rotated out of his position as bishop of the Bisbee Ward, a Mormon jurisdiction similar to a Catholic parish. He told incoming Bishop Robert Kim Mowsey about the abuse in the Adams household. Instead of rescuing MJ by reporting the abuse to authorities, Mousey also kept the information within the church. In a separate recorded interview with federal agents obtained by the Associated Press, Mowsey said church officials told him he should convene a confidential disciplinary hearing for Adams, after which Adams was excommunicated. In 2013, Mowsey and other church leaders still didn't report Adams to the police. Now I just have to say I. This made me want to flip a table and I'll just tell you why. I have been excommunicated by the Mormon Church. I was excommunicated by the Mormon Church for doing two things, primarily supporting same sex marriage publicly and having a podcast where we talked about difficult things. Okay. Sam Young was excommunicated by the Mormon Church. Bishop Sam Young was excommunicated by the Mormon Church, literally, for advocating for child's rights, for abuse victims rights, and for trying to stop Harmful, you know, bishops, ecclesiastical interviews. Okay, this dude survived an entire tenure with the bishop without being, without a disciplinary council being convened at all, without ever being disciplined. So yes, the second bishop convened a disciplinary council, but guess what? What that means is the first bishop didn't. So it is not, and I've said this before, that the Mormon Church, and I don't mean to offend either of you, I hope I. This is insensitive. I have friends that have been excommunicated for getting legally same sex married. And I've, I've been on the record as saying that the church hates same sex married gay Mormons more than they hate rapists and pedophiles. And this illustrates that point that when this bishop, this bishop had a known pedophile in his ward for two or three years and did not even convene a disciplinary council. Whereas it is not uncommon for a Mormon bishop to excommunicate Sam Young and abuse advocate me, or a same sex couple who gets legally married. This outrages me.

Mormon bishop on pedophile abuse scandal

Brenton Erickson [01:00:10] It is really upsetting. I mean, I, I remember at BYU having my temple recommend removed just for telling bishop that I went on a date with a guy where we didn't even hug. I mean, so I do feel like there are sometimes different doctrinal priorities. The church feels like the LGBT agenda, as they said in some of the private videos, is more of a threat to them that, you know, and, and this is more of an issue that anyone can experience and they can help with the repentance process. I mean, it is very upsetting to, to know from the article that the first bishop for a period of years didn't convene a council. That is, that's shocking and I've heard

John Dehlin [01:00:43] it thousands of times, that the church does not by default convene a disciplinary council and automatically excommunicate pedophiles that if the church knows it can keep the pedophilia quiet and secret, it will not convene an automatic disciplinary council. Pedophilia is not an automatically excommunic offense to this day in the Mormon Church in it's optional.

Brenton Erickson [01:01:10] Which based on its compulsive nature is really surprising that that policy wouldn't have changed. I also, I don't know, I do not know like how the Church does this, but I'd wonder if, if sometimes disciplinary councils or like with the state council or whatever are necessary for certain things to be on records and to warn future wards and bishops, like if it's necessary to convene a disciplinary council for certain Warnings to be put in place, then it's also especially upsetting that you wouldn't immediately call a council when something like this comes up.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:01:39] I. I don't know. I've. Sometimes you hear rumors that, like, warnings can only be put on records if certain things are done. So it just. It's interesting that you wouldn't immediately call council.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:49] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:01:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Gerardo, anything you want to add to that? Being same sex, married. You're. You're an automatic excommunicable apostate. And a guy raping his baby.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Is not automatically excommunicable.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:05] It's awful. I mean, it's bad.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] Yeah. Yeah. It's just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:13] Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what to say.

Brenton Erickson [01:02:15] It feels like it's not. The policy is not based on actual harm done.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:18] Right.

Brenton Erickson [01:02:19] If that makes sense.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] Yeah. Which again, speaks to this issue of, is the church really. Are the victims really what the church cares about most?

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:28] Yeah. That's true.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:32] Well, especially because when you excommunicate someone, you have to hold a disciplinary council, which means that at least three more people were involved.

Brenton Erickson [01:02:41] Right. With the priesthood holder.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:43] Yeah. A lot. So it would have been. I mean, if he was an elder, it would have been the stake president, the two counselors, and 12 other men who participated in disciplinary council and. And had to hear all the details of the abuse, and all decided to keep it quiet.

Brenton Erickson [01:03:02] Yeah. That is like. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Oh, wow. You're talking about the eventual disciplinary council. Oh, let's get to that. Let's get to that. Okay. So. So there was a disciplinary council convened. Let me find it. Okay.

The Arizon bishop who ordered Adams' expulsion

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:20] You just read it, I think.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Yo.

Brenton Erickson [01:03:24] Go.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Go ahead. Let me find where we are.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:26] It's. It says in a separate recorded interview with federal agents.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:33] Mozzie said church officials told him he should convene a confidential disciplinary hearing for Adams. That's interesting, because, you know that idea that, oh, stake presidents are the only ones that decide if they should.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] Yeah. For two or three or four decades, the church has always said it's always a local matter.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] And we all. But we've known that it hasn't always been a local matter. Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:03:57] Which also in this case implies that the first bishop who called was not advised or directed by people on the phone call to hold the discipline.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:03] And that's why he didn't do it, Because I think the only reason why he wouldn't do it, I think, would be because he knew that holding a disciplinary council would mean that other people would find out about the abuse. That's my theory. I don't know. Speculation. But then the second bishop says that church officials told him to convene the disciplinary council because the abuse was ongoing. And then after which Adams was excommunicated in 2013. So the disciplinary council disciplinary hearing was. Was done.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:40] And again, and we don't know if

John Dehlin [01:04:42] it was a stake level or award level. If. If he was an elder returned missionary, married in the temple, it would have been. Yeah, a stake level disciplinary council.

Brenton Erickson [01:04:50] I guess we also don't know the timeline exactly. I don't think the article says, like, when the father first confessed compared to when the disciplinary council finally happened, but at least it was between two bishops. It didn't happen. It doesn't seem it happened right away.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:00] He says in 2012, Herod rotated, so it took a year for the new bishop to convene the disciplinary council. But, yeah, we don't know when Herod found out.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] But still, whoever was in that disciplinary council also chose not to report this to the police.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:16] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:05:16] Which apparently they're allowed to under Arizona law. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Yeah. All right. Two years later. But. But, you know, okay. Yay. He was excommunicated after multiple years of children being raped. Finally, the church excommunicated him. That's good, right? Thumbs up.

Brenton Erickson [01:05:35] Yeah. I think excommunication, it was the right decision. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] Okay. Good job.

Brenton Erickson [01:05:41] Good job.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:42] Well, I'm not reporting it. Yeah, let's let it happen. Like, keep letting it happen.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] Not good. Okay. Two years later, in 2015, this is just seven years ago, Lisa Adams gave birth to a second daughter. This is where it gets again. Really graphic. It took her husband just six weeks to start sexually assaulting the new baby. Her recording the abuse. Recording the abuse and uploading the videos to the Internet. The revelation. Now, at this point, he's not a member, but the daughter's a member, I assume. Right.

Should the Church add to its temple recommend questions about abuse?

Brenton Erickson [01:06:15] And the wife.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] And the wife. Right. The revelation that. And at this point, is the wife liable by the church.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:23] She's in jail.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] No, but I'm saying, like. Like, should the church hold a. A mother also liable for. For just letting this abuse happen?

Brenton Erickson [01:06:35] I mean, now, the bishop might not have. I don't know if the bishop talked to the helpline lawyers about the fact that the wife knew. But according, again, according to the description of Arizona law by the ap, the wife was a mandatory reporter. So at some point, she was. She was failing to, you know, what.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] Why? You know, we're asking our temple recommend questions, you know, do you pay a full tithe do you obey the word of wisdom? Do you drink tea? How about they add a question?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:59] Do you know about abuse?

John Dehlin [01:07:00] Yeah. If. If a child is being raped in your home, are you reporting it to the authorities? Why? Isn't that something that you could lose? You lost your temple recommend for what? Hugging a man?

Brenton Erickson [01:07:10] No. Going on a date and we didn't even hold hands or hug. It was my first date. I lost the recommend.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] So you lost your temple recommend for not hugging a guy? Should the church add to its temple recommend questions harboring and not reporting abuse? Should. Should they maybe add that to the temple recommends? Maybe.

Brenton Erickson [01:07:29] To protect criminal laws. Could you be found guilty of a felony or a class B, a class A misdemeanor? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:07:36] Weird.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Yeah. Okay, so I'm. I'm mad.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:41] Is there a question about following the law? I don't think so. Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Like obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:47] The recommend interview.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] Yeah, you're right. Why does it say, if you obey all the laws of the land, it's

Brenton Erickson [01:07:51] in the articles of faith.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] It is, but it's not important enough to keep you out of the temple.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:55] Okay, but tea is tea.

John Dehlin [01:07:58] For sure. Dude, tea. Like tea or lattes. That's awful. We should not be making jokes. Okay. The revelation that Mormon officials may have directed an effort to conceal years of abuse in the Adams household sparked a criminal. Is where you come in. Sparked a criminal investigation of the church by Cochise county attorney Brian McIntyre and the civil lawsuit by three of the Adams children. So there's a third child. I didn't realize that. So there's three children in the lawsuit. So there at least was one more abused kid, quote, who's really responsible for Herod not disclosing. Close quote. McIntyre asked in an AP interview. It is Bishop Herod who says he followed the church lawyer's instruction not to report the abuse to the authorities. Or. And this is the money, quote. Or is it the people who gave him that advice? So criminal investigation, also civil investigation. Is it the bishop who should be, who's the criminal? Or is it the church and the helpline that gave the bishop the advice?

Arizona criminal investigation into Mormon sex abuse coverup

Brenton Erickson [01:09:08] Again, I cannot speak to Arizona law. I can't declare that anyone's criminally liable in Arizona. But if the lawyer is just stating what the law is. If they're just stating what the law is.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:21] And they got it wrong. Right. Because. Because according to what the bishop said, they got it wrong.

Brenton Erickson [01:09:27] That's exactly. That's according to what the bishop said. I don't know what the lawyers actually said. But like a lawyer is allowed to inform a client about what the law is and no, that they, I don't, I don't think they would be criminally liable. Maybe it becomes weird if they really clearly. But no, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:45] Like if the law attorney doesn't represent the bishop.

Brenton Erickson [01:09:47] The attorney represents, they represent, they represent the church and the bishop is the church an agent of the church in that setting. But I guess if the law really leaves it up to the bishop, that, that is really, that's just. Yeah. I cannot comment on the criminal liability anyone might face. I think it's a terrible policy choice if they advise them not to report.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:07] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:09] Well, it was enough to start both the criminal and a civil lawsuit lawsuits against the church.

Brenton Erickson [01:10:15] Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] Yeah. And yeah, we'll hear the defense that about that later. So quote, let's see, the article continues. When it comes to child sex abuse, the Mormon Church says, quote, the first responsibility of the Church in abuse cases is to help those who have been abused and protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse. According to his 2010 handbook for church Leaders. The handbook also says abuse cannot be tolerated in any form. But church officials from the bishops in the Bisbee ward to officials in Salt Lake City tolerated abuse in the Adams family for years.

The Mormon Church's stance on child sex abuse

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:55] That's important.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] So I guess what do you want to say about that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:59] Well, I, I think Mike Resendis talked about, said this quote on an interview. Right. Like the church says that they don't tolerate abuse. And I quoted them in the, in my article saying that they don't tolerate abuse. But in this case, they clearly tolerated abuse for seven years.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:16] And they let it happen.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] And I've literally received thousands of accounts over the years of abuse victims within a Mormon context where the Church told the people involved not to report to the police. Thousands. And so how can the church literally proactively, frequently discourage people from reporting the police and simultaneously say that the first responsibility of the Church in abuse cases is, is to help those who have been abused?

Brenton Erickson [01:11:46] And I don't know anything about those allegations and I've heard the more sensational allegations and maybe they're harder to prove sometimes because of non disclosure agreements or other complications. But even just what's proved in this article, the fact that they don't immediately call a disciplinary council and the fact that they don't report, I mean that's a form of tolerating like they clearly tolerate it in that case.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the West Virginia case is similar, which we're going to get to right now. Okay. So it says the church officials, from the bishops in the Bisbee ward to officials in Salt Lake City, tolerated abuse in the family, Adam's family, for years. Quote, they just let it keep happening, said MJ in her AP interview. They just said, hey, let's excommunicate her father. It didn't stop. Let's have them do therapy. It didn't stop. Hey, let's forgive and forget, and all this will go away. It didn't go away. A similar dynamic played out in West Virginia, where church leaders were accused of covering up the crimes committed by a young abuser from a prominent Mormon family, even after he'd been convicted on child sex abuse charges in Utah. The abuser, Michael Jensen, today is serving 35 to 75 years in prison for abusing two children in West Virginia after he abused children in Utah. Their family, along with others, sued the church and settled out of court for an undisclosed sum, quote. Child abuse festers and grows in secrecy, said Lynn Cadigan, a lawyer for the Adams children who filed suit. That is why the mandatory reporting came into effect. It's the most important thing in the world to immediately report to the police. And by the way, the police could do an investigation and decide there's no. There's no guilt. There's no evidence.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] So it's not like you're necessarily putting the father in prison for life just by reporting. You're just saying, hey, people whose job it is to gather evidence and determine culpability, let them do their job. That's all it's doing.

Brenton Erickson [01:13:54] And it seems like, for example, in the Arizona statute, there seems to be a backstop that, you know, you're immune from criminal or civil liability as long as it wasn't done with malice. As in, yeah, you. As long as you're reporting in good faith and you actually have reasons to report, then, no, it's up to the police. And the law still tries to protect people from absolutely baseless allegations.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:13] Yeah, we win. Dark.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Sorry about that. It's not a technical glitch.

Brenton Erickson [01:14:24] Okay, so you were saying that according to the ap, the Arizona statute seems to exempt people from criminal and civil liability and.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Sorry.

Brenton Erickson [01:14:38] Anyway, it just seems like the law tries to deal with these concerns. It seems like a lot of statutes try to deal with the possibility that someone would make a baseless allegation that could harm someone's life. Like, it doesn't seem to protect people in those situations. But, yeah, as long as you have a good reason to report. You're just leaving it up to law enforcement to figure out what to do, right?

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Yeah. Okay. The, the, the article goes on. The lawsuit filed by the three Adams children accuses the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Saints and several members, including Bishops Herod and Mowsey, of negligence and conspiring to cover up child sex abuse to avoid costly lawsuits and protect the reputation of the church, which relies on proselyting and tithing to attract new members and raise money. In 2020, the church claimed approximately 16 million members worldwide, most of them living outside the United States. So basically the lawsuit is trying to get to intention and it's saying that the reason the Church deals with things this way is to avoid the expensive lawsuits and protect the Church's reputation. Is that hidden below the belt? Is that reasonable?

Brenton Erickson [01:15:46] Yeah, I think those are valid reasons that. Yeah, like those reasons cut out up. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] Yeah. Okay. The failure to prevent this is a quote. The failure to prevent or report abuse was part of the policy of the defendants, which was to block public disclosure, to avoid scandals, to avoid the disclosure of their tolerance of child sexual molestation and assault, to preserve a false appearance of propriety, and to avoid investigation and action by public authority, including law enforcement. The suit alleges plaintiffs are informed and believe that such actions were motivated by desire to protect the reputation of the defendants. Very few of the scores of lawsuits against the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints mentioned the helpline, in part because details of its operation have been a closely guarded secret. The documents in the sealed court records show how it works. Okay, really quickly, anything else you want to say about sort of those claims stated in the lawsuits?

The Mormon Child Abuse Helpline

Brenton Erickson [01:16:50] I mean, it's going to be up to like the court and the lawsuit to decide the validity of those claims. And when I said those are valid reasons, I was not saying valid reasons for the Church to do what it does. But I still think it's shocking to me. With some of these examples, it seems like the church creates self inflicted wounds. If it has the opportunity to report right away, then it doesn't seem like it's going to face any public backlash. But by not reporting it, then West Virginia or in Arizona, it creates these situations where now it definitely looks like that. Like it's like you created the situation yourself. Yeah, it's so unnecessary.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] I would just have to think there's like almost actuary tables of like, how much money are we going to pay out and how much damage to our reputation if we just always tell people to report when they can versus if we. And then they go. And then they go to. Potentially to police officers and investigations, and then they potentially go to lawsuits. How much money and negative exposure happen then versus if we just tell them never to report in the first place?

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:53] Right.

Brenton Erickson [01:17:54] It seems like it would generally be less. Even if you might have to pay some money by reporting right away. It seems like it would generally be less than a course of conduct over a period of years.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] Maybe they're mostly worried about, like the disruption to the ward and to the stake, that the. That even. Even if there might be some liability for telling them not to report the disruption to the ward. Because oftentimes these people have callings. Oftentimes these people are like over the Boy Scouts, you know what I mean? And the bishop is supposed to be inspired by God to make these callings. And usually they have temple recommends. Like, usually they're deemed as worthy by their bishops. And so I think it probably. I think that might be a major consideration. Is too messy, too problematic for the leadership and the priesthood and the ward and the stake to have this mess erupt in the ward. Better just keep it quiet.

Brenton Erickson [01:18:52] Right. Especially like in West Virginia where the Relief Society president allegedly is the one, like, suggesting the babysitter. And I also think Mormon culture has a tendency to be overly positive about the church. Right. So the Mormon culture has a tendency to say that, look at all these things that don't happen in our community. And actually like the average Mormon, it's generally like the average other, like crime rates and just general problems that families experience that Mormons are not immune from those things. But it seems like sometimes there's a tendency to pretend like we do have far less of that. And if you actually were open about each of these instances, then it's like, actually, my word is at the same statistics of child abuse as any other group of 500 people that might be difficult to face.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:34] And it's represented by that article from Latter Day say Mag or whatever. That's literally the title. Like, oh, this doesn't happen in the Mormon Church that much.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] Yeah, yeah. I think we just have a culture of like, don't talk about the hard stuff. Keep it quiet. Put a best for. Put a best. Put your best face forward. Put a smile on your face, Be positive. Don't air dirty lives.

Brenton Erickson [01:19:57] It's shocking. It's shocking if you learn that a prominent member of the ward has actually been abusing their family for years. Like, I thought this guy loved Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] And they were like, you're the Sunday school teacher or primary teacher, right? Yeah, it's a problem. And again, is the bishop inspired at all if he's calling a pedophile the

Brenton Erickson [01:20:13] spirit of discernment issue?

John Dehlin [01:20:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a problem. Yeah. Okay. All right, so now we're going to talk about the helpline. Quote, the helpline is certainly there to help, to help the church keep its secrets. Okay, so this is an attorney. This is Craig Vernon. He's an attorney in Idaho who, along with Tim, has sued the Mormon Church on. On behalf of a lot of victims. I refer pretty much anyone who ever reaches out to me saying, hey, do you have a lawyer about sexual abuse? I refer them to Craig Vernon just because he lives in Idaho and I've got his info on my Rolodex, virtual Rolodex. Anyway, is Craig Vernon, he says, quote, the helpline is certainly there to help, to help the church keep its secrets and to cover up abuse. Vernon, a former member, routinely demands that the church require bishops to report sex abuse to police or state authorities rather than the helpline. The sealed records say this is the sealed records in the West Virginia case. Say calls to the helpline are answered by social workers or professional counselors. And I'm going to add paralegals who determine whether the information they receive is serious enough to be referred to an attorney with Kurt mcconi, a Salt Lake firm that represents the church. A document with the heading protocol for abuse helpline calls, which was among the sealed records obtained by the ap, laid out the questions social workers were to ask but before determining whether the calls should be referred to the lawyers. Now, I, first of all, I want to thank Brett Nordquist for his Super Chat donation. We really appreciate that and we appreciate the support. So thank you, Brett. Also thank you, Topic Discuss. We appreciate those of you who financially support the program. Now we're going to do something that I think is probably the most important part of this entire episode today. You guys may or may not agree. What we're going to share is the first page of the protocol for the abuse helpline calls. Okay, here it is. And what we're going to be analyzing, I'm just going to ask everybody, the Mormon Church, and I'm going to ask you, Brenton and Gerardo. The Mormon Church claims that what they care about most, that the purpose of this call line first and foremost is what the victims. It's to do what with the victims,

The Mormon Church's Sexual Abuse Helpline

Read the Mormon Church's Abuse Helpline Protocol

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:52] to help, to protect, to, okay, stop the abuse.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Okay, so now what we're going to do is we're going to read the protocol for abuse Helpline calls. That was not. That is not public information. That is not shared with all church members. So they know, you know, what this helpline actually is going to ask about. But instead it was leaked out of a sealed court case that the church settled that. Now we have the first time a chance to look at it and I think it's scandalous. And I just want you. We're going to read it and I'm going to say, stop me. I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna go through six points and a bunch of other things. Stop me when you hear me say something that seems to be favoring the victims. All right? Will you stop me, Brenton?

Brenton Erickson [01:23:38] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] All right, Roda, will you stop me?

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:40] You might read the whole thing, Johan.

John Dehlin [01:23:41] I might read the whole gosh darn thing and nobody will stop me. Okay. All right, here we go. I'm going to read it. Protocol for abuse helpline calls. It's got a date, name of caller position, ward stake, home phone and work phone. Okay, so far, normal stuff. Right. Next box. Reporting information. First question, is this a high risk case? Yes or no?

Utah Protocol for Abuse Helpline Calls

Brenton Erickson [01:24:09] Now, Brenton, I would start with a line above that.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] What does it say? Oh, reporting information. Okay, the.

Brenton Erickson [01:24:16] Yeah, the line right above. Can you go back to the. Tell priesthood leader that no identifying information. Did you already read that? Did I.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] No, no, no. I'm in the top right. I'm in the top right.

Brenton Erickson [01:24:23] Oh, yeah, continue. So sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] No, no, no, it's okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:26] The top right is supposed to be filled once you, once you do the bottom, it says yes to any of 1 to 6 below. So.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] Oh, so I read it out of order.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:36] Well, that's how it.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] Okay, okay. All right. Okay, so we'll go through that. We'll go through the regular questions now. So the first thing it says is tell priesthood leader that no identifying information should be given. So that's the first thing it says. The first instruction out of the gate. Tell priesthood leader that no identifying information should be given. Use first names only. Now, Brinton, help me out. Why is that the first instruction given out of the mouth of the call in?

Brenton Erickson [01:25:07] I'm not even. I don't even know how necessary it is. But it seems that that instruction would be given to ensure that the social worker or the non lawyer initially answering the call doesn't accidentally become a mandatory reporter.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] Yep.

Brenton Erickson [01:25:19] Which. Right. So it's like.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:21] Exactly.

Brenton Erickson [01:25:23] Yeah. So they don't.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Is it the person on the line receiving the call in the helpline?

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] That doesn't give identifying information no, the

Brenton Erickson [01:25:30] person initially answering tells the priesthood leader, according to this paper, tells the priesthood leader not to give identifying information. So like, don't tell me exactly where you are. Don't tell me the exact names.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] Oh, so okay, that first block is the. Wait, the first block is the caller. And it says name of caller, right?

Brenton Erickson [01:25:47] Yes. I think once you get to like the, you know, there's the two squares. Once you get to that line, that seems to be instructions for the person initially answering the call. Screening the call, essentially.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] Yeah. Oh, so it's. So when it says name of caller, they're going to say first name only.

Brenton Erickson [01:26:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] So a bishop calls. So I'm Bishop Tom Beaudet. I call this helpline. I call the helpline and the person on the helpline says, hi, welcome to the hotline. What is your name, please? Only give me your first name.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:15] Yeah, no, no. So the bishop. I think the bishop will give his information. They, they need to verify because that's an actual bishop.

Brenton Erickson [01:26:21] They're, they're part like, that's all privileged, but.

John Dehlin [01:26:24] I'm sorry, I'm confused.

Brenton Erickson [01:26:25] No, it's okay. I think it seems like they're definitely avoiding getting the, the full names and identifying information of the individuals involved. The victims.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:33] The victims. The perpetrators. Those are the names that they're not supposed to be given to the social worker.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] The people involved in the case.

Brenton Erickson [01:26:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] Use first names only.

Brenton Erickson [01:26:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] And you're saying that's to make sure possibly that who does not have to be a mandatory reporter.

Brenton Erickson [01:26:50] It seems to be a way to be very careful that the people initially screening the call do not accidentally become mandatory reporters.

John Dehlin [01:26:55] Because these could be P. Utahns. These people could be living in Utah. The ones that could be receiving calls from all world.

Brenton Erickson [01:27:03] Yeah. From Utah. Yeah. Well, and in theory. In theory, you might be subject to the mandatory reporting law in Florida. If you're receiving a call from Florida, like you're not there. But. Yeah.

Call Screener in Florida

John Dehlin [01:27:12] So it's shady. It's shady that they're saying use first names only.

Brenton Erickson [01:27:17] They, they are, yes. They're. They're very carefully trying to avoid that potential problem.

John Dehlin [01:27:20] Now is, is that for the benefit of the victim?

Brenton Erickson [01:27:24] No, not clearly.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] Who benefits from that?

Brenton Erickson [01:27:28] The church. The caller. The call. The church. Because the, the call screener has not yet found out how serious is this call.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Okay.

Brenton Erickson [01:27:36] And what could happen. So, yeah, you're being careful at the beginning.

High-Risk Cases

John Dehlin [01:27:38] Okay, here we go. High risk cases. So now it's going to list high risk cases. Now when it say high, it says high risk cases. Does it mean high risk to the victim? Whose risk is being assessed here? The victim.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:51] We'll see. We'll see. Okay, let's see.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] Let's see.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:54] Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, John.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Okay, so under high risk cases, if any of the following questions are answered. Yes, immediately transfer the call to legal counsel. See phone number below. It is important to have legal counsel involved in the discussions between priesthood leaders and abuse helpline personnel in order to preserve the confidentiality of the information. Okay. You're smiling. Why are you smiling?

Brenton Erickson [01:28:20] I'm just surprised they're even honest about that on the paper. Why? Like, why does the call screener need to know that? They don't need to know that. They just need to follow these. But they're. I'm just. I'm just delighted that they're honest about it on the paper.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] You're saying why does the screener need to know what?

Brenton Erickson [01:28:33] Why does the screener need to know that? It's important that this conversation with the lawyer be confidential. Just tell them to transfer to the lawyer. But it's like they're honest about it on the. I'm sorry, I just find that funny.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] No, it's good. Okay. All right, so question number one. Here's question number one. Does your call concern child sexual abuse with which may have a cure occurred on church property? Yes or no? Okay, so it's asking about church property. That's gotta be for the sake of the victim. Right?

In the Elevator With Lawyers: Does Child Sexual Abuse Occur

Brenton Erickson [01:29:01] Actually really is not relevant about how dangerous it is to the victim.

John Dehlin [01:29:04] It's not. I was joking. So when. When it's asking about church property, tell us, dear attorney Brenton, why it's asking about church property?

Brenton Erickson [01:29:13] This one and the others that you're going to read, I mean, it's obvious that the focus is on things that would. The cases that would be most likely to make the church liable.

John Dehlin [01:29:21] So if it were on church property, then. Then what would happen?

Brenton Erickson [01:29:25] It could. You could be more likely to be liable in a lawsuit because there's just. There's more connections to the church. And it's interesting that I have lost my thought, but, you know, with all these initial calls they get, this is a way of. This could be the very first time they're hearing about this perpetrator or about this case.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] And.

Brenton Erickson [01:29:42] And it's clear their priority is how much trouble are we already in right away Is like, that's the priority.

John Dehlin [01:29:48] Exactly. Yeah. It's not like, is the child safe? Have they seen a therapist? Are the social workers involved? What are the Signs of depression and anxiety. Have you isolated the parent? Have you excommunicated the dad? Have you warned all the ward members? That's not the first question. The first question is, did the abuse happen on church property? Are we liable? Right.

Brenton Erickson [01:30:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:11] Okay. Is that an uncharitable reading or is that.

Brenton Erickson [01:30:14] No, that is clearly. And. And a lawyer would be like. I'm sure there's a lot of organizations where they're similar, but it's just the church doesn't present it this way. But that's clearly what's.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] Yeah. Okay. All right, well, maybe it gets better. Maybe that. Maybe that's a mulligan. Let's go to the second question. Question number two. Does your call concern child sexual abuse which may have occurred at a church sponsored activity? Church, seminary, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts. Now, I'm sure that's for the victim because depending on what activity the abuse happened, maybe you'd give a different therapeutic intervention to the victim.

What's More Likely to Make a Child?

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:47] You're the, you're the psychologist.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Sorry. I'm sorry. This is ridiculous. Okay. Britain.

Brenton Erickson [01:30:53] No, just every single one of them. These are. It's.

John Dehlin [01:30:56] If it happens in a church activity, then what?

Brenton Erickson [01:30:58] Then it's. Honestly, it's like the. It's like them public. It's like them broadcasting. What's more likely to make the lawsuit more difficult? It's more likely to create more liability.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Yeah. Which is why they don't make this document public. Right, okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:09] Or a PR scandal too.

John Dehlin [01:31:11] Right. Okay, question number three. Maybe gets better at three. Does your call concern child sexual abuse by a church leader or youth leader who used their church position to accomplish the abuse? Nursery leader abusing children in nursery. A seminary teacher abusing seminary students. Which means that must have happened before. A youth leader abusing his or her youth. Or a missionary.

Does Your Call Concern Child Sexual Abuse?

Brenton Erickson [01:31:36] I love the examples because, like, it seemed obvious already. Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] So, I mean, we might. We might say the most likely abusers in the Mormon Church are nursery leaders, seminary teachers, youth leaders, or missionaries. I mean.

Brenton Erickson [01:31:51] Or there's just the examples they're giving. I think it's that that has got to be the call they hate the most. I mean, because those, those cases are the ones that are more like directly comparable to the Catholic Church. Right. To a priest doing something like someone actually using their calling to take advantage of someone. That's got to be their least favorite call. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:10] Like the one in Argentina.

John Dehlin [01:32:11] Yeah. Yeah. But again, question three. Is that for the victim of the community?

Brenton Erickson [01:32:15] So what? Not. I can't see.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] It's liability. Liability okay, number four, maybe, you know, we've got six here. Maybe one of the six. So we'll go to four. Does your call concern an alleged perpetrator employed by the church? Now, surely that's for the health and safety of the victim.

6 Questions for Church Leaders on Child Sexual Abuse

Brenton Erickson [01:32:36] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:32:37] No, no. So. So are you saying that a church employee. If it's a church employee that's the abuser, the church is going to be more likely to be held liable?

Brenton Erickson [01:32:46] Yeah. These are obvious.

John Dehlin [01:32:48] Yeah. Okay, sorry, sorry. I'm. I'm beating a dead horse here. Number five, are you aware of previous child sexual abuse or tendency towards sexual abuse by the alleged perpetrator? Okay, nothing about the church there.

Brenton Erickson [01:33:01] That one's really interesting that. That's asking, like, oh, did we already know about this? And is it a problem that we already knew about it? I mean. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] So did we? Or is this something we knew about and didn't do anything about?

Brenton Erickson [01:33:10] Basically, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] Again, liability of the church not protecting the victim. Correct. Okay, last one. Does your call concern an alleged perpetrator? Sorry? Does your call concern an alleged perpetrator who is currently a missionary, even if the abuse occurred prior to his or her mission? If yes, transfer this call to Bob. Oh, sorry, Bob. Or Richard. See their phone numbers below. Now that's interesting because it mentions missionary in question three, but then it also mentions missionaries in question six. But again, what's going on here? Possibly.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:46] Why are mission. Why would missionaries be a bigger deal?

Brenton Erickson [01:33:49] I. Apparently I'm, I'm. Again, this is. This is just speculation. Missionaries might be more likely to be international calls and calls that are. Are suddenly going to involve visas and, like, just more complicated legal issues.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:00] I see.

Brenton Erickson [01:34:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:02] Well, and then, and then the church is taking care of those missionaries while they're serving missions. They're taking care of, you know, their rent, their place, where they live. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a lot more complicated than a bishop that has his own life, his own profession, stuff like that.

The Church's 6 Questions About the Sexual Assault Hotline

John Dehlin [01:34:21] All right, so we've read all six questions. So the church says that the hotline is all about helping the victims. Right. It's. It's primarily about helping the victims, making them safe, keeping them healthy, and then, like, making sure that all the laws are followed is, like the third thing. Right. But the victims are one and two of these six questions. I'm acting like Perry Mason. How many of them are about the victim?

Brenton Erickson [01:34:46] Like, my answer is not going to change. And we'll get to it later. But their response. Their response, you know, says that the article mischaracterized the helpline and emphasizes that the conversations are about helping and based on testimony from someone in this case and based. If this is real. Right. Which we think it is. No. The very first part of the conversation is how liable are we? Right. Maybe later parts of the conversation are about the victim, but the very first part of the conversation is how liable are we?

John Dehlin [01:35:11] Yeah. Okay, so let's do the final questions. There's a few more, so let's hit them. Number one, is this a high risk case? Now, is it possible they're referring to high risk of the mental health or the safety of the victim here?

John Brinton on the Protocol for Abuse Helpline

Brenton Erickson [01:35:29] I, I think, I think it's referring to that list. It just gave. It just, it just gave the six. The six examples of high risk cases.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] So. High risk to what?

Brenton Erickson [01:35:37] To the.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] Okay, sorry. Okay, so let's try again. Second question. Is this a reportable situation? Yes. No. Who? And if so, who has reported and who will report?

Brenton Erickson [01:35:49] Okay, that's interesting. Are they asking like a social worker? Because it seems like the lawyer is going to be the one to answer.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:56] Yeah, that's interesting.

Brenton Erickson [01:35:57] Is this a reportable situation? And.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:35:59] So maybe that's filled out later. Yeah, maybe. Maybe the social worker.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:02] Oh yeah, because then it says legal counsel was consulted.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] Legal counsel was consulted. Yes or no.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:07] And the attorney name.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] And the attorney name and then a follow up date. Was any of that for the safety of the health and safety of the victim or the health and safety of the ward members?

Brenton Erickson [01:36:18] It may be the. Will someone report? Has someone already reported? Maybe they're like, oh good, someone has already reported. But also there's two sides to that coin. It's also like, tell us what's already going on with this case. Give us, give us the information we need about what's already going on with the case.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] So if you had to put together a visual pie chart of what percentage of this page of this Protocol for Abuse helpline is intended towards protecting the health and safety of the victim. What percentage would be in the pie chart? The church and its legal liability versus the health and safety. Safety of the victim. Brinton pie chart. What percent?

Brenton Erickson [01:36:53] You're asking a lawyer? Sorry, I mean, vast majority is for protecting the church. I mean, I think, I think maybe. I think I found one thing in there that might have a flip side.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] So 99.

Brenton Erickson [01:37:07] I'm not going to give numbers, John.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:10] 100.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] 100%.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] Nothing. So you'd say nothing in there was to protect the health and safety. Safety of the victims?

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:16] I, I would say so, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] Yeah. And that's the protocol, people. That's the protocol. Okay. That's the protocol. Now, who knows if that's the protocol used today? There's a date on this. That's 99. But.

Brenton Erickson [01:37:32] And who knows what happens in the later conversations? But, but that, but that is the initial. You can see what the, the prioritized concern is.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Yeah. And if the church has updated the protocol in the past few years, I think Sam Young gets that credit, not the church. That's just my opinion. And the news reporters and the victims.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:50] Yeah. Who.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] And the lawyers who made this a case and forced the church to make changes. But this shows, this certainly shows why the helpline was put together.

Brenton Erickson [01:38:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] Right. Is that fair?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] Am I being unfair?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:03] And the date is only four. Four years after the. It was put together.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Yeah, exactly. Now, there is a second page to this report. And by the way, I want to thank Tim Koznoff. He shared this with me. Did you have a copy of this already? I guess the article showed it's just

Church Abuse Helpline: Encourage the Priest to Report

Brenton Erickson [01:38:20] a little hard to read.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] A hard to read version.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:21] Gina Colvin had a copy of it on her podcast of this.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Of this version. Okay. Anyway, we'll. There is a second page. Maybe we'll. We'll see some victim support there. Reporting issues. It says after the abuse helpline worker has obtained all of the facts and background information, he or she should determine whether or not the incident of child abuse has already been reported to child protection or law enforcement authorities. If not, abuse helpline workers should instruct priesthood leaders to encourage an interested person to report the abuse. Individuals who may report include the victim or the perpetrator or other third parties who know about the abuse. Neighbors, parents of victim, spouse or family of the perpetrator. Now, when I read that, I was taken back because I thought, whoa, they're telling the perpetrator or the person involved with the ecclesiastical leader. They're telling the bishop or the stake president to instruct the abusers or their family members to report. So does the church get credit there?

Brenton Erickson [01:39:35] I mean, I think it'd be worse if they instructed people not to report. Like, or encourage people not to report?

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:41] Well, I think it would be illegal in most states.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] Right.

Brenton Erickson [01:39:44] Depend. Right. Depend. Yeah. Depending on whether they're mandatory. Reporter.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] But should they get credit for test. Should the hotline get credit for telling what's legal to tell the, the, the perpetrators and. Or their family members to report to police?

Brenton Erickson [01:40:00] I mean, it seems pretty basic. I'll just say that it's, it's better than not doing that.

John Dehlin [01:40:05] But it's not an A plus.

Brenton Erickson [01:40:07] I don't think so. I also, it's interesting that says encourage the priestly leader. So this does not say encourage the priesthood leader to report. Encourage the priesthood leader to encourage interested parties, which is what happened in the Bisbee case.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess the perpetrator knows he could always turn himself into the police if he ever wanted to. He probably already knows that, obviously. And I guess the wife, the perpetrator, you know, the perpetrator's wife knows that she could turn her husband in. So how much good is it likely going to do and how much good did it in fact do that the bishop was instructed to do this and in fact told the perpetrator and his wife that they should report this all to the police?

Brenton Erickson [01:40:44] It does some good. I also think that line right there they would use to fight against allegations that lawyers or bishops are actually telling people, like actually asking people not to report. Now that's. I don't know if that happens or not, but that, that line seems to imply that the policy is that that shouldn't happen.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:41:00] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:01] It seems like that's always been the policy of the church as far as I went back and checked the Hamburg of instructions.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:07] That all members should be, should report abuse.

John Dehlin [01:41:11] But here's the thing. Here is the thing. One out of a hundred abuse cases get reported. So the fact that the church just kind of adds.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:22] So the church is not doing a good job at telling members they should

Brenton Erickson [01:41:25] report or informing that in the church. You mean like the general statistics generally?

John Dehlin [01:41:29] I think. I mean, just generally abuse is not reported.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] 1% of abuse cases are reported to the, to the authorities. That's. I've just heard that general statistic, especially involving rape or assault. I'm sure child abuse is similar. And all I'm saying is they're definitely underreported. That's super underreported. And, and they're not really moving the needle there oftentimes when they, when they tell family members to report. That's all I'm saying.

Brenton Erickson [01:41:56] Well, especially when even, even if it's a family member who's concerned. If you're going to the bishop and you haven't talked to the police yet, it's like they are, they already know. They already know about this. They could have already called the police. Like they already know there's a problem. Yeah. The bishop saying, like you could.

John Dehlin [01:42:09] They already know that family members tend to not report is all I'm saying.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:13] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:42:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] So to tell Family members to report when they tend not to, you know, and especially if the bishop adds. And you don't have to report, you know. Right.

Brenton Erickson [01:42:24] Which. That seems like it might sometimes be terrible legal advice. If a bishop tells a random person that.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Okay, let's continue. If a priesthood leader recommends that a perpetrator report the abuse to civil authorities, he should also recommend to the perpetrator that. That he or she should consider obtaining legal counsel. Now, Tim and Gina both thought that was scandalous. Why? Why do you think? Tim and Gina, I'm asking you to speculate, but is there something scandalous about the. The helpline telling the bishop to advise the perpetrator to get an attorney if a family member chooses to report?

Sexual Abuse Helpline: Should the Victim Get Legal Counsel?

Brenton Erickson [01:43:02] I don't know if that's scandalous. To me, that seems more like a bishop being careful to tell a perpetrator that they're not giving the perpetrator legal advice. I mean, you can actually be. It's actually like, wrong for an individual who's not licensed in that state to give some legal advice. So that seems you could just be being careful and saying, that's a way of reminding perpetrator, I'm not your attorney. The bishop is not your attorney. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:43:22] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:43:23] So I. I'm not sure that I find that so scandalous.

John Dehlin [01:43:25] Okay. I was surprised when, when they were frustrated by that. Maybe our viewers and listeners can express why that might be disturbing and heroic.

Brenton Erickson [01:43:34] Yeah. There's some aspects missing.

John Dehlin [01:43:36] Okay. If the sexual abuse has been or will be reported immediately to civil authorities by a person other than the priesthood leader and does not fall within the above guidelines, no transfer to legal counsel is necessary. A call should be transfer. So what is that about?

Brenton Erickson [01:43:53] Can I look at that, actually, so.

John Dehlin [01:43:54] I'm so sorry. I should have. Yeah. If the sexual abuse has been or will be reported immediately to civil authorities by a person other than the priesthood leader and does not fall within the above guidelines, no transfer to legal counsel is necessary. In other words, if it's already been reported or they know it's going to be reported, don't bother transferring it to legal.

Brenton Erickson [01:44:15] It's two things there. If it's already reported, but then the second part is. And doesn't fall within those six. So that means if it's a high liability case, you're still going to transfer it.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Brenton Erickson [01:44:25] So no, no, no. They're still. They still want to learn about those cases.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] So it's basically a screening saying, okay, if it's already been reported, and we don't think There's a big risk that we're going to get involved.

Brenton Erickson [01:44:36] That's interesting. That implies that if it's already going to be reported, then the helpline actually isn't really there to help you. Like help the victim. Like we're done. Unless it's already been reported and it's a high liability case. We definitely need to hear about this case.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] Yeah, but it's not like proceed to the next thing about helping the victims. I don't see anything in this form that says that.

Brenton Erickson [01:44:55] Yeah, no, it's that. You're right. It actually seems like it's only. Yeah, that.

John Dehlin [01:45:00] Ouch. Good point. Okay, then it says a call should be transferred to legal counsel when it appears that the abuse will not be reported to civil authorities unless it is reported by the priesthood leader or it falls within the above guidelines for high risk cases. This is starting to feel really legalistic to me, by the way.

Deseret News: Helpline Should Never Advise a Priest

Brenton Erickson [01:45:20] Yes, this all feels very legalistic.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Anything you want to say about that sentence?

Brenton Erickson [01:45:24] That. I think that second sentence kind of repeats the points of the first.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:27] Okay, well, but it says that if the bishop is the. Like just exactly like this case, if the bishop is the only one that knows and no one else is going to report it, then transfer it to legal counsel and then they're going to tell them based on the state they live in, probably if they are mandatory reporters or if there is a clergy exemption.

Brenton Erickson [01:45:48] Yeah, it's interesting because they, they admit it seems one of the points of the helpline is to make is to help the bishop know what they legally have to do. And that, that sentence just made it seem like if someone's already reported, then the bishop isn't going to get legal advice. Like the bishop might still be a mandatory reporter, but that makes it seem like they're not going to get any legal advice if it's already been reported.

John Dehlin [01:46:07] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. To me, this, this last part's kind of disturbing. It's the. It's one of the only times in this whole report where it's all caps. Right. So something above was all caps. But here's a part that's all caps, okay. Abuse. Help. Abuse. Helpline personnel should never advise a priesthood leader to report abuse. Counsel of this nature should only come from legal counsel. So by all means, you know, support line person, never tell a bishop, even if the state, even if the state allows them to never tell them that they should. What's going on there?

Brenton Erickson [01:46:55] I think the church's policy preference is about confidentiality of confessions. They want to have Control over that. And then secondly, I don't know. I. I cannot confirm whether or not there are states that would actually punish a bishop for confessing. But the. At least one of the Deseret News responses seemed to imply that some people think there are. And so I guess if that's true, if it's true that in a few states a bishop could face consequences for reporting, then you'd want legal advice. But I think the main thing there is they want control over their preference for maintaining the confession as confidential.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And when you're bolding it, it just sort of sends this psychological message, be careful about reporting abuse to me.

Brenton Erickson [01:47:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:47:39] Well, again, maybe the social worker shouldn't be giving legal advice. That might be considered legal advice. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:47:44] But.

Brenton Erickson [01:47:44] But yet it's not legal advice to encourage the interested third parties. I. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] Yeah. Yeah. And then it gives the phone number of Curtin McConkey. We're going to show that. And then it gives the names of the legal counsel. I don't mind sharing that. Merrill Nelson, Tom Walk. David McConkey. That's an interesting name. Oh, sorry. And Von Keach. And we talked about Von Keach yesterday. Von Keach, as we mentioned yesterday, eventually became sustained as a general authority for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And again, we highlighted yesterday that the church doesn't tend to call school teachers and mental health professionals as general authorities. They tend to call businessmen and attorneys as general authorities. And why would they want Von Keach as a general authority? Because he could be a general authority who's an expert in handling child sex abuse cases and. And legal and PR fiasco's. So you know Von Keach. And he did pass away. I've actually heard people, I've met people who knew him and say he was a great guy, but anyway, I wouldn't want his job. I'll just say that. Okay. Anything we want to say that we haven't already said, or should we jump back to the article?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:00] You can jump.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] Yeah. Jump back to the article. Okay. So, Gerardo, where are we in the article?

Mormon officials in the West Virginia case say they've never seen

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:11] The protocol.

John Dehlin [01:49:13] Okay. The protocol. Is that a sentence?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:16] Wait, wait, wait, wait. No. So I think we should say where it says Mormon officials in the West Virginia case.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] Okay. Yeah. Okay. Mormon officials in the West Virginia case said they did not recognize the protocol and. And could not authenticate it. But a ranking church official in a separate sex abuse lawsuit in Oregon confirmed that those answering the helpline used a written protocol to guide them. Now, I have A question. Why isn't the whole protocol and the whole hotline protocol experience transparent and public information? Why. Why would the Church not want the membership to know this?

Brenton Erickson [01:49:55] I mean, if this, if this protocol is real and if the priority is liability cases and dealing with those cases, then that's more like legal concerns for the Church. They're not interested in the membership knowing about all their legal concerns.

John Dehlin [01:50:06] If the priority were helping the members, wouldn't this all be transparent?

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:11] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:50:11] And that was another. Like, the Church's response again, said that the AP article mischaracterized the helpline. Well, great. Why don't you just tell us exactly what happened? Yeah. Instead it just gave us generalities of.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:50:21] Of the main purpose is, how about you could actually just tell people abc. This, this is literally what happens on the health.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Yeah. Why haven't they done that? Why haven't they said, here's a thousand mental health professionals that are on staff. Here's how we get them meds, here's how we get them to trauma specialists. These are the shelters we refer the rape victims to. Wouldn't that be wonderful to see that that was the protocol? If they were truly helping the victims, they should be proud of their protocol and they should publish it everywhere.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:50] That's a good point.

Brenton Erickson [01:50:51] Right. But. Yeah, but in reality, they actually. It wouldn't even make sense for them to have a whole office of social workers because you actually, you should just report to authorities and then the social workers.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] Exactly.

Brenton Erickson [01:50:59] Like the church doesn't need its own infrastructure of social workers to do with these cases.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:51:03] Could you read again, the. Sorry, just the little thing under the picture. Mormon authorities. Sorry, what you just read.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:09] Mormon officials in the West Virginia case said that they did not recognize the protocol and could not authenticate it. But a ranking church official in a separate sex abuse lawsuit in Oregon confirmed that those answering the helpline use a written protocol to guide.

Brenton Erickson [01:51:23] Use a written protocol. So they don't have. So we don't have any. We don't have it super high up confirmation.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:28] Again, this is from 1999. So.

John Dehlin [01:51:30] But again, like, I was talking about this yesterday, like, this isn't just a corporation. It is a corporation, but it's a corporation that claims to be with. To have Jesus at the head. Right. And that it's led by prophet seers and revelators who literally are special witnesses of Christ and speak to Jesus. So if that's the case, then why are they doing this shenanigans where it's like, I've never seen this protocol before. Hey, Billy, have you seen this protocol?

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:59] It has our phone numbers and our names.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] Yeah. Like, why aren't they going, hey, victims. Hey, legal process. Let us just, in discovery, give you the protocol because we have nothing to hide. Jesus leads our protocol. Jesus leads our helpline. So we have nothing to hide. Hey, everyone, here's our protocol.

Brenton Erickson [01:52:18] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:18] They said they're denying that they've ever seen it.

Brenton Erickson [01:52:20] They could just choose to release the protocol. And I think the bigger concern is it's a corporation that claims to be essentially led by Jesus Christ. Why in legal filings is it saying reasonable people could disagree about how ethical these decisions were, but we don't give up. I mean, that's not what they're saying. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:34] But the.

Brenton Erickson [01:52:35] The. The legal explanation of we weren't absolutely required by law to report, so it doesn't matter. Like that the. A corporation represented by Jesus Christ is saying that in court. Yeah, we weren't required to. So ha. Like, that's the.

John Dehlin [01:52:49] But they're also denying that they've ever seen it. And what's the likelihood that these attorneys have no idea what the protocol is?

Brenton Erickson [01:52:56] Yeah, unless. Unless there's a slightly newer version. A slightly newer version. I've never seen that protocol.

The Helpline's Sexual Abuse Protocol

John Dehlin [01:53:00] Then they're disassembling. Isn't that dissembling?

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:03] You know, I mean, when they're going in court, John, and having Bishop say that every conversation they have with members, even just about their new car that they just bought and that that's privileged and that they can't talk about that in court, and they. I mean, you know what Tim was saying yesterday in the recording? Like, saying stuff like that for them is like, yeah, it's nothing.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] Yeah, they're acting like lawyers. Yeah, but are they acting morally and ethically? And are they. Are. Is. Is this how Jesus would his law firm to behave?

Brenton Erickson [01:53:36] And cross examination is all about getting directly at what you're trying to get at. So a question of, have you seen this protocol? Great. I'd be interested to see. Did they ask, have you seen anything like this? Is. Is this similar to a protocol that you have seen? Like just that question alone allows someone to kind of skirt around. Not this protocol.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:52] The ranking church officials. Sorry, we missed a sentence. It says that the ranking church official who said that there's a written protocol s. Said also, quote, there would be a page containing various topics to discuss and handle, said Harold C. Brown, the director of the church's welfare service department.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] What are you saying?

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:10] So it just. He, like the church official who Mentioned a written protocol, said that there's a page and that discusses which topics there should discuss with the bishop and how to handle it.

Brenton Erickson [01:54:23] So you have confirmation that there is a written protocol, and the church's response does not include the written protocol. That's like. So when they say they mischaracterize the helpline, well, then just release the written protocol.

John Dehlin [01:54:32] Yeah, yeah. By the way. Yeah. I think it's important to mention that the church has various departments and that this helpline isn't run out of the like, family services, Love and help the mental health of Mormons everywhere department. You know, the church welfare department, it's under which department is it called?

Brenton Erickson [01:54:52] Risk assessment? What are they called?

John Dehlin [01:54:53] Risk assessment, Risk management. So if the helpline were truly first about helping the victims, would it be in member welfare or would it be in risk? You know, risk management.

Brenton Erickson [01:55:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] Okay.

Brenton Erickson [01:55:07] That goes right along with the protocol.

John Dehlin [01:55:08] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:55:08] It's all about the risk. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] Okay. So the article actually has a copy of the first page of the protocol. I'll go on. The protocol instructs those staffing the helpline to tell callers that they are to use first. So this is repeating what we've already talked about. Maybe I won't read that. Let's see. I'll go on. Joseph Osmond, one of the Curtin McConkey lawyers assigned to take help line calls, said in a sealed deposition that he's always ready to deal with sex abuse complaints. Quote, wherever I am, the call comes to my cell phone. He said he then acknowledged that he did not refer calls to a social worker and would know how to do so. Is that significant?

Brenton Erickson [01:55:52] I think that's the acknowledgment of actually, why would the church even need social workers to talk to? Like, again, if you're just going to do this the way it probably should be done, you don't have your own social workers at the church handling this. So of course the lawyer isn't going to refer this to a social worker. If you need a social worker, talk to authorities and go to your local office. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:11] Osmond declined. And again, another fun name. Osmond. Osmond declined to comment through church officials. Pete Schoenfeld, a Curtin McConkey lawyer long associated with the helpline, also declined to answer questions from the Associated Press. Again, why would church. Why would Jesus's attorneys not want to talk to the press? You would think that they would say, we've got everything on the up and up. We have nothing to hide. We, you know, if. If you hug, you Know, if you hug a, a guy or if you, you know, touch someone inappropriately, You Mormon youth, you need to tell every last detail to your bishop. But then when it comes to a legal case where, like, children were raped and harmed, then it's like, oh, yeah, we're, we'll. Oh, the AP wants to know the truth. The stuff that we've hidden in these lawsuits. By settling them. No comment.

Brenton Erickson [01:57:04] I mean, they're ethically prevented from commenting unless their client gives them permission. Like, they're not going to say anything that their client doesn't approve. Approve of them saying.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] But the church could say, hey, Kirk McConkey, we have nothing to hide. Feel free to rep. You know, feel free to represent us. Or the church itself could. Could say, we have nothing to hide. Like, why the no comments Mormon Church.

Brenton Erickson [01:57:22] It's hard for an organization that claims to be so divinely led to, like, admit publicly or show publicly that it has the same issues that any other human organization has and the same legal problems. It's just everyone.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:32] Or, or worse. Yeah. Okay. Maladone, the attorney for the church in the Adams lawsuit, said church clergy or church attorneys have made, quote, hundreds of reports, close quote. Of child abuse to civil authorities in Arizona over an unspecified number of years, but he could not say how many calls to the helpline were not referred to police or child welfare. Welfare officials, and could not provide a referral rate. So why are you laughing?

The Mormon Church Helpline Denies Credit for Child Abuse Reports

Brenton Erickson [01:58:05] Because why say the first part if you're not ready to do the second?

John Dehlin [01:58:09] No, but I mean, hundreds, he says hundreds.

Brenton Erickson [01:58:13] So it's like, it's emphasizing what the church does refer. Then it's like by not answering the second part, you're kind of leaving. It's implying that the answer is negative. If the answer were a very few cases or zero, why would you not answer? Yeah, the answer must not be as positive as they would want me to say.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:32] Yeah, I found that super interesting.

John Dehlin [01:58:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:35] The other people say, oh, this. We have this amazing cases over here. And then the reporter asks, okay, but which ones are the bad ones? And it's, oh, I can't say.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [01:58:45] Now I can't respond.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] Yeah, yeah. Also. Also, like, in the context of the helpline, I'm not sure this is really. I'm not sure the helpline gets credit for this, because part of the question is, did the bishops already report?

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] So some of those, a lot of those could be instances where the bishop goes rogue and reports. And then the helpline is like, crap, you screwed up, Bishop. Don't do that. Again, and I actually, I actually saw a Reddit comment.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] Where a bishop said, I reported. Then I called the helpline and they got mad at me and chewed me out for reporting. So in this case, the helpline's trying to take credit for something that they very may well have actually chewed out a bishop for actually doing.

Brenton Erickson [01:59:28] At least some of them. I think it seems that the helpline, it does take the statistics, even if they're not going to take the call to a lawyer. The form right there, if that's the form, it does take a statistic of this one was reported. So they do know which ones are reported, like in local wards.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] Yeah, yeah. But the helpline doesn't necessarily get credit for those reportings.

Brenton Erickson [01:59:46] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] Yeah. All right. Especially for the reportings of bishops, because the helpline says in super bold, never tell a bishop to report. So why are they claiming credit for any of those? The helpline gets zero credit for any bishop ever reporting anything everywhere. Because the helpline says, the upline protocol says in massive bold letters, never tell a bishop to report.

Brenton Erickson [02:00:10] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:11] Well, but there is. So there are some stuff, states where there's no clergy exemptions, it would be

Brenton Erickson [02:00:17] transferred to the lawyer. And in those cases, like, yeah, if you're going to follow the law, the lawyer has to tell the bishop, you have to report this.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Good job. Mormon Church helpline for following the law told the bishops to follow the law. Okay. All right. Two church practices identified in the sealed records work together to ensure that the contents of all helpline calls remain confidential. First, all records of calls to the helpline are routinely destroyed. Now, this is.

Church Documents Confiscated Under Seal

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:42] Wait, keep reading, keep reading.

John Dehlin [02:00:43] Definitely one of the most shocking things about this thing. Next to the protocol quote, those notes are destroyed by the end of every day, said Roger Von Komen, the church's Director of Family Services, in an affidavit included in the sealed records. Why in Joseph Smith's name is the helpline destroying the. The, the records at the end of every day?

Brenton Erickson [02:01:09] Member confidentiality, I think that that isn't. Sorry, just to go back, we asked earlier, why would they tell the screener of the call to not get any identifying information? That's another reason. Because if you're getting identifying information, then in some states, you might have now evidence of a potential crime. And it might be illegal to, like, purposely destroy that. Like, there could be situations like that. So by not getting any identifying information, you have evidence, but also it's not nearly specific enough to matter. And so you can, you can destroy it.

John Dehlin [02:01:37] Like, that's yeah, but they're destroying possible evidence. Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:01:41] Or at least like. No, but they could lead to evidence,

John Dehlin [02:01:44] information that could be useful in an investigation.

Brenton Erickson [02:01:46] And in the first place, they're purposefully limiting what information will go in those notes that are then destroyed.

John Dehlin [02:01:50] So are they shredding for the health and welfare of the victim? I just have to ask. No.

Brenton Erickson [02:01:55] For the confidentiality of the perpetrator. For, for the victim. If it's not a super serious case and no one wants like, like, I don't know, it's because you could have a bishop calling this line about something that actually doesn't matter because bishops could be paranoid.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:07] Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:02:07] It's just. That's just private information is trying really

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:10] hard to find a case where he

Brenton Erickson [02:02:11] would be benefit of the victim. But yes, no, in. In the typical case that's getting a phone call.

John Dehlin [02:02:16] But they're shredding to protect the church. They're not shredding.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:20] Wait, what he said, Brenton said. It just blew my mind right now. He said, you know, the protocol says to not give any identifying information. Yeah. One of the reasons could be because if there was identifying information there, that would constitute as destroying of evidence.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:02:35] Potentially. Right. And there's a different.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:37] There's also.

Brenton Erickson [02:02:37] There's a difference between the lawyer getting that information because the lawyer can have that information and they might, they might have to keep notes of it, but not. But it's attorney client privilege. But the, the social worker, the random screener having it.

John Dehlin [02:02:48] That's not their legal work protected under.

Brenton Erickson [02:02:51] So it depends, but. So it seems like they want to avoid that situation in any sense. They want to avoid any situation where the screener actually isn't protected by attorney confidentiality. And now they have information that's too specific. They want to avoid that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:03] Yeah, they're destroying it.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] Yeah. So Jesus's church and Jesus's law firm is destroying as much evidence as they can. I mean, if you, if you, I mean, if you believe that this church is literally led by Jesus, then it's Jesus's law firm.

Brenton Erickson [02:03:18] Well, the law firm is being led by a client who claims to be led by Jesus. Yeah, but in those cases.

John Dehlin [02:03:23] Yeah, but it's the church's protocol to shred the documents, right?

Brenton Erickson [02:03:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:28] Yeah. So. Yeah. Okay.

Brenton Erickson [02:03:31] According to that, what would Jesus shred?

John Dehlin [02:03:33] We need a new bumper sticker. WWJS what would Jesus shred? What evidence? What evidence would Jesus shred? We. That's. This should be a TikTok.

Brenton Erickson [02:03:41] He does erase your sins.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] Why are you laughing, Bernie? You're Turning red. Why? You have to laugh or you're gonna flip a table, you know? Okay. Second, church officials say that all calls referred to Kurt McConkey lawyers are covered by attorney client privilege and remain out of the reach of prosecutors and victims attorneys. Quote, the church has always regarded those communications between its lawyers and local leaders as attorney client privileged, says Paul writing the Director of Risk Management in a sealed affidavit. And again, the help lines are under risk management. Right, right, right. At the church. Is that a problem that the church hides behind attorney client privilege? Or should the church fulfill some higher ethical law of like, hey, we have nothing to hide, you know, we just want the welfare of the victims.

Brenton Erickson [02:04:28] Right. I think that's something that members should consider. Like, why are you so eager to protect everything possible with attorney client confidentiality?

John Dehlin [02:04:35] Why not get to the bottom of it to whatever would help the victim?

Brenton Erickson [02:04:38] Right?

John Dehlin [02:04:39] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:04:39] Right. But they're, again, they're protecting. I think they have. They often have a priority for protecting their own legal rights as a corporation, as a legal entity.

Mormon Church's Secret Lawsuit Risk Management

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:46] And the thing, John, is like, we're not holding the. The church to, like, a super high, like, crazy standard. We're literally holding them to the standard that they claim to be at.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:58] So for sure, that's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] Okay. An ominous time. Mormon leaders established the helpline in 1995, and it operated not within its Department of Family Services, but instead in its Office of Risk Management, which is which. Whose role is to protect the church and members from injury and liability in any array of circumstances, including fires, explosions, hazardous chemicals spills, and severe weather. The department ultimately reports to the First Presidency, the three officials at the very top of the church hierarchy. According to records in the sealed documents, Risk Management also tracks all sex abuse lawsuits against the church, according to a sealed affidavit by Duane Little, a past director of the department who helped establish the Helpline. He said members of the church's First Presidency knew the details of the Helpline. Quote, I have been in those types of meetings where the training of ecclesiastical leaders and the establishment of Helpline have been discussed. Little said. When asked who attended the meetings, he answered, members of the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric or the top leaders of the Church.

Brenton Erickson [02:06:07] That's important for some members out there who might be saying it's just the church's law firm. It's just. I think. I think it might be fair to say that, like, some very random decisions by the law firm might be just left up to the law firm. But, yeah, it's important to confirm that absolutely the highest UP leaders knew about the creation of the Helpline, likely know about its details, check up on it like that.

John Dehlin [02:06:26] Yeah, yeah. And as Down a Chokes is the first counselor in the first Presidency, ain't nothing happening legally in the church without his approval. Pretty fair to say.

Brenton Erickson [02:06:36] Oh, I think he's the go to guy for any legal questions.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] Yeah, yeah, no question. Before establishing the help line in 1995, and this is super disturbing, the Mormon Church simply instructed bishops to comply with local child sex abuse reporting laws. Now the Church likes to claim that one of its benefits or its features is ongoing revelation. And what's implied in ongoing revelation is that things just pretty much get better over time. Is this an instance of things getting better over time?

Brenton Erickson [02:07:06] No. I think it's interesting that now, now the bishops need a lawyer's help and before they were just like, just look up your own statue and good luck. Like they, like before they weren't so concerned about it and now they want all the control centralized.

John Dehlin [02:07:18] But they were doing the right thing before. Yeah, that's super disturbing backwards.

Brenton Erickson [02:07:25] It seems like now, like we've said, if the bishop really is a mandatory reporter, it seems like the lawyer would have to tell them to report. So I don't know that much has changed. Just in the 90s, they used to just leave it up to the bishop. They weren't. So now, now they're like hyper vigilant about what risks there might be to them, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's gotten worse over time.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:42] And we talked yesterday about what that might be. You know, the church has more assets, they're more widely known.

Brenton Erickson [02:07:48] A lot of assets.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:49] Yeah. So the risk is higher.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] Several hundred billion dollars just in investments alone.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:55] Let alone real estate and other assets. Okay. Quote, no, at the time, child sex abuse law search lawsuits were on the rise. So this is the motivation for the change. At the time child sex abuse law search were on, the lawsuits were on the rise and juries were awarding victims millions of dollars. The Mormon Church is largely self insured, leaving it especially vulnerable to costly lawsuits. Quote, there's nothing, this is super lawyerly. Quote, there's nothing inconsistent between identifying cases that may pose litigation risks to the Church and complying with reporting obligations. Church lawyers said in a sealed legal filing, does that, Is that even an interesting sentence? Like you're laughing again.

Brenton Erickson [02:08:42] It's just as a lawyer, of course, that makes all the sense in the world. It's just, it's uncomfortable for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to have to be like, we actually like, have to deal with these very mundane and risk assessment legal. It's like, why don't you just like call Jesus up and ask what you should do in every case? I don't know. I know that sounds trite, but yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:02] Article continues. But one affidavit in the sealed records which reportedly says the church condemns child sex abuse also suggests the church is more concerned about the spiritual well being of perpetrators than the physical and emotional well being of young victims who also may be the members of the faith. Quote, disciplinary proceedings are subject to the highest confidentiality possible. Said writing. If members had any concerns that their disciplinary files could be read by a secular judge or attorneys or be present, presented to a jury as evidence at a public trial, their willingness to confess and repent and for their souls to be saved would be seriously compromised. Close quote. Why are you, why are you nodding your head?

Brenton Erickson [02:09:46] This is easily fixed by having every bishop start a confession session with. If you share any information with me about child sexual abuse or physical abuse or potential murder that like, I cannot guarantee that'll remain confidential. You just start every session with that. And no longer will members be concerned. They'll know. Exactly. They'll know. They'll know the policy, which is what

John Dehlin [02:10:05] every psychologist or mental health professional is trained to do.

Brenton Erickson [02:10:08] Right, Right. Also, I just laugh at the idea that someone who's committed something as serious as like this kind of horrible child sexual abuse is ready to repent, but not ready to talk to police.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:18] That's really that repentant. Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] And since the Mormon Church has, as an article of faith, we believe in honoring, obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. They should turn themselves in for violating the law. And so there shouldn't be. Whether or not you're wanting to sincerely repent, you should want to obey the law. Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:10:38] You should want to obey the law. And in cases like that where like the behavior you're having an issue with is often compulsive, like, part of the reason that you need to comply with the law is because the church, like, to some extent, the church can't help you.

John Dehlin [02:10:49] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:10:49] The church can't cure pedophiles. Like, they, they need specialized assistance.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] Yeah, for sure. Okay. A global investigation. This is so funny. It wasn't the prophet, Syrian revelator, that, that or an inspired bishop with the gift of discernment that was able to really bring this case to a successful conclusion. It was police in New Zealand and the Department of Homeland Security. So here we go. In 2016, police in New Zealand arrested a 47 year old farm worker on child pornography charges and found a nine minute video on his cell phone downloaded from the Internet showing a man in his 30s raping a 10 year old girl. Should say a Mormon man in his 30s raping a 10, 10 year old girl. A global search for the rapist and his victims was on. It started with Interpol and led to the US State Department where investigators using fear. This is so cool. This is like top. This is like a mission impossible State Department where investigators using facial recognition technology match the rapist with a passport card photo of a U.S. border Patrol employee living in Bisby, Arizona. According to a Homeland Security synopsis attained by the Associated Press. Agents rushed to the Naco Arizona border station and arrested Adams, then a lanky, bearded mission support specialist with the border control. After some coaxing, Adams admitted to. I wonder if it was like torture, like what type of coaxing do they do?

Mormon Man Arrested for Rape in New Zealand

Brenton Erickson [02:12:29] No, just typical police. Miranda.

John Dehlin [02:12:31] Sorry. After some coaxing, Adams admitted to raping MJ and to sexually assaulting her younger sister. And a posting video of the assaults on the Internet. When agents raided his home, they seized phones and computers holding more than 4,000 photos and nearly 1,000 videos depicting child sex abuse, many featuring the Adams daughters. But the nine minute video stood out. This video is one of the worst I've ever seen, Homeland Security Agent Edwards later testified, adding that haunting dialogue between Adams and his older daughter helped make the video, quote, stand out of my mind and continue to stand out in my mind. The video represented 9 minutes and 14 seconds in seven years of continual and unnecessary trauma for MJ and a lifetime of abuse for her tiny sister. While Bishops Herod and Mousey and church representatives in Salt Lake City stood by after Paul Adams died by suicide. Lisa Adams pleaded no contest to child sex abuse charges and and served two and a half years in state prison. Three of the Adams children went to live with members of Lisa's extended family in California. The other three were taken into in by local family members. It's kind of weird that probably the Mormons who took the three kids aren't involved in the lawsuit. But, but assumedly the other, you know, the other three. The other three.

Brenton Erickson [02:14:01] One of the adoptive families was Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:14:03] Okay, so maybe.

Brenton Erickson [02:14:03] But then later it seems like later disconnected.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:05] Yeah, when they, when they, it says that when they were, were going to the trials and learning what the abuse was, they dropped out. They. Yeah, they left.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] So I'm going to say two things. Just some people may think it's unfair that we Keep harping on the Church's teaching of discernment. And I'm just going to say two things. First one is about an angel with the flaming sword. It's, it's not really discernment related, but this point has been made elsewhere. I'm going to make it here. Like for all the instances where God has the power to send an angel with a flaming sword. Right. God can send angels with flaming swords. We know that he can do it because he did that with one of the women that Joseph Smith wanted to convince to become his polygamous bride. Joseph Smith told one of those women, God sent an angel with a flaming sword to me, telling me that if I don't make you my plural wife, he's going to kill me through the angel with the flaming sword. Why doesn't God send angels with flaming swords to protect these victims? I think that's a fair question. Mormon God, what are your priorities? But the second thing is, more importantly, we harp on this issue of the gift of discernment. And I just want to say that I think it's not unfair because I think it's fair to say that in your average Mormon ward or stake or mission, Mormons believe that their bishops, that their stake presidents and their mission presidents and their leaders and their general authorities all have the gift of discernment to protect them. Am I, is that unfair?

Brenton Erickson [02:15:45] No, it's not unfair. That's not unfair. So then members would have to question like was my leader not really connected to the Spirit or is that spirit of discernment not really real? Like both of those things, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:56] Yeah. Well, we've read enough from the handbook. It's on multiple videos from apostles talking to bishops about it and telling them that they have the power of discernment. So it's not, we're not, we're not making it up.

John Dehlin [02:16:10] No.

Brenton Erickson [02:16:11] Especially for bishops or other callings that actually have to be approved by high up leaders or for people who get into high up callings. I mean, yeah, just over and over again. So many priesthood leaders that could have realized but didn't.

John Dehlin [02:16:22] Yeah. When a Mormon parent sends their kid, their 3 year old or 5 year old kid, when it sends their baby to the nursery or their 5 year old kid to primary or their 10 year old kid to scouts or 12 year old kid to scouts, they assume that those leaders have been called by God because the Church teaches, whether by my voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. And I, I think we're not being too harsh. I think the church needs to change that teaching because it's making their members unsafe. Because they're trusting leaders with a level of trust that they don't deserve. Because they're just like everybody else, right?

Brenton Erickson [02:17:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:03] Or worse, because they have the self interest of the church, sometimes as a higher priority than the member.

Brenton Erickson [02:17:10] Also, if you admit that your leaders can make mistakes in their official capacity as leaders, it's not such a big deal to correct those mistakes later. You don't have to sit there and say the priesthood ban was complicated. You know, you can just deal with things directly.

John Dehlin [02:17:21] Yeah, yeah. All right. Going on to the survivors MJ's little sister was only two when she met her adoptive mother for the first time. The toddler wrapped her arms and legs. This is about how how traumatized the victims were. The toddler wrapped her arms and legs around Miranda Whitworth's head, buried her face in her neck and refused to look up to say goodbye to members of Lisa's family. It was the craziest thing, said Whitworth, who with her husband Matthew welcomed the toddler into their family. It was like when you see a baby monkey or baby gorilla cling to their mother and they just won't let go. Over the next few days and weeks, the Witworths would see additional markers of the unfathomable abuse the toddler endured at the hands of her father, much of it recorded on video. She would howl in terror when any man attempted to touch her, whether it was Matthew or the family physician. The nurse was fine, but the minute the doctor walked in she climbed onto me and started screaming bloody murder, miranda said. The two year old was also terrified of the water, which made bathing an ear splitting ordeal. She wouldn't tolerate anything wrapped around her wrists, and at church she would run and hide behind Miranda whenever anyone greeted her by an old family nickname. When they took in the toddler, neither Miranda nor Matthew knew very much about what had happened to her. But while sitting in on Lisa Adams sentencing hearing, they learned about the repeated rapes, the videos and the fact that the church bishops knew about the abuse of the older daughter and did nothing to stop it. The Whitworths were converts to the Mormon faith and like many new followers of a religion, they were especially enthusiastic about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In particular, they appreciated the efforts Mormons make to help fellow church members in times of need through church organizations established to give special attention to women, teens and children. It's all about family, miranda said. That's one of the things we absolutely loved. And any of us who are Mormon know remember the church commercials where they say family isn't about time. We know that the Mormon Church as a marketing tool, as a missionary pitch says it's all about families. The article continues. But after learning about what Adams did to their new daughter and the failure of the church to stop him, the scales fell from their eyes. Quote, we decided to remove our records from the church, said Matthew Whitworth. I personally couldn't continue to provide tithing money to a church that would allow young children to be abused and not do anything to prevent it. Close quote. And I'm just going to say, if any of you are paying tithing to the Mormon Church right now, your tithing supports Curtin McConkey and the law firm and this helpline. So you are literally paying the attorneys and the helpline to that allow church at the expense of victims. Is that, am I being extreme there?

The Mormon Church's failure to stop child abuse

Brenton Erickson [02:20:28] Well,

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:31] I think, I think members try to hide themselves behind the, the, you know, the idea that, that this doesn't happen and that we're generalizing. But I think your statement is really strong when, when you say your tithing is supporting Curtin McConkey who allowed. Which allow the firm that allowed seven years of abuse to happen.

John Dehlin [02:20:54] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:20:55] Even this case alone. Even if we're not going to talk about generally what they do all the time. This case alone, we know for like from the court filings, they did not advise the bishop to report.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:04] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:21:04] And the bishop seemed to think they advised him not to report, but they did not advise him to report.

John Dehlin [02:21:08] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:21:09] Even though he could have, like it was up to him.

John Dehlin [02:21:11] Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's your tithing money at work. Let's see. Unlike the Whitworths, Nancy Salmanen has never been a member of the Mormon Church. But as a special needs teacher and a rape victim herself, she has a special affinity for MJ and others like her. Over the last five years, she's opened her home to 17 girls and boys who needed a safe place to stay. Her house is a modest ranch style structure she bought out of foreclosure. Quote, Everything's a little broken here and that's perfect because so are we, she said. Sal Salmanin said she met MJ after receiving an urgent call on a Friday evening to rescue a 12 year old from another family. Quote. She was pretty scared and pretty confused when I picked her up. Salman and recalled she spent a lot of time in her closet in her room when we got home. But we got to know each other and got to like each other. Like the Whitworth, Salman knew very little about what MJ had had endured until Lisa Adams's sentence sentencing hearing. Quote what I heard made me want to throw up, she said. And the more I learned, the more I wanted to help her fight this fight that she didn't even know about. Close quote Safely settled in Salmanin's household, which today includes a foster girl, Salman, and also plans to adopt, MJ has been transformed from a victim of unimaginable abuse to a bubbly 16 year old who who plays in the high school band and proudly dons a crisp new uniform for her job at a fast food restaurant. Quote she has every excuse to fail and to just fold into herself and run away, Salmanin said. But instead she came back stronger than anyone I've ever known. So strong that she appears eager to play an active role in the battle she and her two siblings are waging against Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Quote I just want them to do what they're supposed to do and report to the police, MJ said. Now, a couple quick things that come to me here. Number one is if the bishop had just reported to the police at the very beginning, these kids would have been rescued and either given a better dad or a foster home that they could have been adopted into and, and had a much better start. Is that fair to say?

One foster mom's fight for victims of sexual abuse

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:36] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:23:37] Yeah. I think that highlights that the decision to not advise the bishop to report isn't just a decision to not prevent the abuse itself, but it's a, it's a decision to not prevent all the collateral consequences for many people last the rest of their lives. I mean, really, really, really serious.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:23:51] It's not just the moments of abuse itself.

The Foster Families in Gerardo

John Dehlin [02:23:54] The other thing that makes it a little bit offensive when I hear about these foster families in Gerardo. I know you and Zach have considered foster care at one point, point or another. I think you've disclosed that on the podcast. What do you think about the attorneys framing this, these foster parents, these adoptive parents as sort of just going mindlessly for a money grab?

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:14] Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I read that quote from mj because it's MJ saying, like the girl who has abused that. I the only thing I want is for them to do what they're supposed to do and report to the police is just, which is what we talked about, right? They, they want policy changes and, and, and they're just being painted as someone and as people who want money, especially people that are. And that's who the lawyer is painting that way. This beautiful people who are adopting and fostering, like, multiple children who have been doing it probably for multiple and who obviously are not doing it for the money. You know, it's just. Yeah, it's just awful. It's disgusting.

Brenton Erickson [02:24:58] Who cares if someone who's like, to some extent experienced something so terrible, in part because of the church's decisions, wants money from incredibly wealthy organization? Like, why it's so weird to paint them as, like, that's evil.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:25:11] Like, I'm sorry, why is that wrong?

John Dehlin [02:25:13] Why shouldn't. Why shouldn't the helpline and the law firm have a policy where it's like, okay, what damage was done? How liable are we? What type of money would make this right? Let's just voluntarily, proactively do our own best faith, even charitable assessment, and just give the money.

Brenton Erickson [02:25:39] Right. But it seems like from the podcast with the Tim attorney that, yeah, there are settlements, but a lot of them are nowhere near a fair assessment of what would happen. Trial.

John Dehlin [02:25:48] No, no, no. It's. It's prevent this ever from being reported to police. Then if it's. Then if it's reported to police, prevent it from ever going to court, then if it goes to court, prevent there from ever being, you know, just try and get it dismissed.

Brenton Erickson [02:26:01] Proactively report proactively provide what might be a settlement.

John Dehlin [02:26:04] Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. The adopted parents of the third Adams child who has filed suit declined to speak to the AP about the case. Like MJ Miranda and Matthew Whitworth said they joined the lawsuit against the church on behalf of their young daughter, not in hopes of a payday, but to change the church policy so that any instance of child sex abuse is immediately reported to civil authorities. We just don't understand why they're paying all these lawyers to fight this. Matthew Whitworth said, just change the policy. Okay, we're coming down the home stretch. This is a long article. We're coming down the home stretch. Thanks to everyone for their patience. It says the privilege, that policy is the key to the church's defense. In a recent filing asking a Supreme Court judge to dismiss the case, Maladone and other lawyers for the church said the case, quote, hinges entirely on whether Arizona's child abuse reporting statute required two church bishops to report to authorities confidential confessions made to them by the plaintiff's father. Is that true? Is that what the case hinges on?

The case of the Mormon foster parents in Arizona

Brenton Erickson [02:27:15] That. That is their argument that. So civil liability is different. Right. So it seems like they're focusing on because nothing Illegal happened. Sorry. Because nothing illegal happened, we shouldn't be held civilly liable. That's the approach they're going with.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] Yeah. Okay. Whatever. This is the article. Whatever moral or public policy arguments one could make that the church should have told authorities that Paul Adams was raping his daughters are irrelevant. The lawyers argued, quote, Arizona's reporting statute broadly exempts confidential communications with clergy as determined by the clergyman himself, according to the church motion to dismiss the case. Reasonable people can debate whether this is the best public policy choice, but that is not an issue for a jury or this court.

Brenton Erickson [02:27:59] Reasonable people can debate as if the church just, like, listens to feedback from people and actually changes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:05] So basically, they're saying. And this is. This would be the church saying it. I mean, by their lawyers.

Brenton Erickson [02:28:11] The church is allowing their lawyers to make this legal argument. Like, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:15] So basically they're saying. They're saying, yeah, you guys over there can debate whether our policies for not reporting abuse are morally correct or not. But. But we are exempt by law to do it.

John Dehlin [02:28:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even this doesn't feel like they care about the victims, right? Yeah. There's nothing about caring about the victims that kind of corresponds with this legal strategy. And by the way, can't the church and its law firm tell attorneys that represent the church and its bishops and its law firm never to accuse the foster parents of being guilty of a money grab? Couldn't they proactively do that?

Brenton Erickson [02:28:55] Yeah, yeah, I think.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:58] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:28:58] I assume that most of the big decisions and, like, legal arguments that the law firm decides on are approved by someone in the church itself. And it's just that, yeah, the money grab thing is like, wow, yeah, you know this is going to be a national article, right?

John Dehlin [02:29:10] Like, why would you say, yeah, yeah, all right, we're. We're almost done. Bishop Herod, in his recorded interview, said church officials told him he had to keep what Adams told him confidential or he could be sued if he went to authorities. But McIntyre, the Cochise county attorney, said that's false, noting the Arizona reporting law says that anyone reporting a belief that child sex abuse occurred is immune from any civil or criminal liability. Aside from the legal arguments over whether Bishops Herod and Mowsey were excused from their reporting obligations under the clergy penitent privilege, critics of the inaction by the two bishops and the broader church have raised ethical issues. Gerard Moretz, a seasoned child sex abuse investigator for the Pima County, Arizona Sheriff's Department and an expert witness for the Adams children, is one of them. Quote, what aspects of your religious practice are you advancing if you don't report support, something like this? Close quote. He asked, and I'm just going to resummarize. What doctrine of Jesus Christ or of Joseph Smith says that bishops shouldn't let police know when a child is being raped by her dad? Thoughts?

Brenton Erickson [02:30:37] I mean, again, their response right there in the legal filings is our policy about confidential confessions. But again, it's like, that's your choice, that the Church is making a choice there. It's not. They've never. They've never, like, canonized, like God told us confessions. Like you're making a choice.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] Yeah. No. Yeah. There's. There's no precedent. There's no scriptural precedent. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:57] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:30:58] Okay. Well, we did it. We read the. We had the article and we commented on it. We can just jump to the Church's response. Or if you want, we can. Oh, we could jump. Yeah. Or we can. Any. Any. Anything you want to say before we jump to the Church response? Yeah, we've been going a long time. All right. So the church's handler disguised as a journalist, Ted Walsh. Tad always writes the church's, like, most complicated and scandalous kind of response pieces. When I got excommunicated, I. I have. It's personal for me. Tad wrote the piece about my excommunication, and it was a complete act job. I've met Tad. He was really nice to me. I'm sure he's nice, but I hate the Journal. You know that. His work is disguised as journalism, honestly, because he's a PR rep for the church who publishes articles in the Deseret News for the church. Am I being too mean?

Church responds to AP story on abuse of a child and reporting hotline

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:53] That's how I felt when I read his article.

John Dehlin [02:31:55] Yeah. So the Deseret News is owned by the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Tad Walsh is employed by the Deseret News. So he's an employee of the church. This is his article. Church responds to AP story on abuse of a child and reporting hotline. Quote, starts out with the, quote, the abuse of a child or any other individual is inexcusable. Close quote. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints said in a statement. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints responded Friday to an Associated Press story about how the church handled child sexual abuse cases in Arizona and West Virginia. And I'd say, Oregon, quote, the abuse of a child or. This is the church. The abuse of a child or any other individual is inexcusable. The statement said, quote, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believes this Teaches this and dedicates tremendous resources and efforts to prevent, report and address abuse. Our hearts break for these children and all victims of abuse. Any comments?

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:05] No. Well, why does it say that they. They dedicate tremendous resources to prevent and report abuse when we. When literally this article is literally having the. Quoting their lawyers saying that there are. They have the right to not report.

John Dehlin [02:33:25] No, I think they should say the vast majority of the money they invest in the hotline is to discourage reporting, not to report.

Brenton Erickson [02:33:35] If the protocols we saw were real, then when reporting has already happened, they're like, cool. Then hang up. Like it's. Yeah, it's. It doesn't seem like the truth. I don't understand how it's investing in it.

John Dehlin [02:33:46] Yeah. And tremendous resources. Like it's got a couple hundred million billion, billion, billion. Could the Church do more?

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:52] But that's not a response, John. That's not a response to the article. It's not like, literally, the Church is here saying, we report and we give all this resources to report. And then they have their lawyers over here saying, oh, we have the right to not report.

John Dehlin [02:34:06] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:34:07] And maybe they mean LDS Family Services, like, Like actual free services. Maybe they're referring to that. But the article is not about, like, the Church doesn't ever help victims. It's about what happened in this case and the tendencies. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:16] And this is a response to the article.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] Yeah. So, okay, the article continues. The AP story focused on the Church's abuse helpline. The helpline provides professional, legal and clinical advice on abuse cases to Latter Day Saint bishops and branch presidents, laymen who are not professionally trained clergy. By the way, what clinical advice can you. Comes out of that form we just read?

Brenton Erickson [02:34:44] If it does, it's not in the form. Right. It's. It says, like, get. Don't get identifying information and then just find out basic things. If they're giving clinical advice, it doesn't say it in the form.

John Dehlin [02:34:52] So maybe the Church has added some clinical advice since, you know, some years ago. But if they did, I wonder if. If Sam Young deserves that credit. And. And others not. Not the church, anyway. Bishops and bre. Which means. Why'd you excommunicate Sam Young? Okay, the article continues. Bishops and branch presidents who oversee congregations and stake presidents who preside over groups of congregations are instructed to call the helpline when any type of abuse arises. The churches.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:22] I found that interesting because I was trying to find a quote in the handbook where it says that the bishop and sick person should definitely call the helpline. Because in the handbook is worded as kind of like we established this helpline for cases of abuse, but it doesn't say like bishops, you need to call this helpline in all cases.

John Dehlin [02:35:45] You don't think bishops know to call the hotline?

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:47] Oh, totally, totally. I know that's what they're being instructed in their meetings and like, whatever. That's not what the handbook says. But here, Tim, he. Or what's his name, Tad, he literally just confirmed what I was looking for. Yeah. That they are. That they are instructed to call the helpline when any type of abuse arises. So, yeah, he gave me.

The Church's Mission Statement for the Helpline

Brenton Erickson [02:36:09] That's a busy.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] That's going to be a busy hotline, by the way.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:11] Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:36:12] So the guy said he's always ready to answer calls and it seems like

John Dehlin [02:36:15] how many lawyers staff church. That'd be fascinating. Okay. The Church's published goals for the helpline, established in 1995, stated is designed to, number one, assist victims and help protect them from further abuse. Full out bold face lie. Because we just read the protocol.

Brenton Erickson [02:36:34] Right.

John Dehlin [02:36:35] There's nothing in the protocol that addresses that first point.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:39] Yeah, the protocol was from 1999. They were mentioned in 1995.

John Dehlin [02:36:43] So that's a super lie.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:45] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:36:45] Those protocols seem like statistic gathering, like just little check boxes and then if it's a bad case, send it to a lawyer. Like that's what that protocol seemed like.

John Dehlin [02:36:52] But I believe that the lawyers said we need to have a mission statement for what we're doing.

Brenton Erickson [02:36:58] Right.

John Dehlin [02:36:58] Let's not have a mission statement. Let's protect the Church's assets and reputation by any means necessary. Is it fair to say an attorney wouldn't recommend that as being the goal of the helpline?

Brenton Erickson [02:37:08] No. You would want some. If you're going to release something to the public, you'd want something that sounds more positive. Of course.

John Dehlin [02:37:13] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Second is help protect potential victims. No. And then third, comply with legal requirements for reporting abuse. So they put the. Put the first thing third. Right, Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:37:27] Which. Yes, again, based on those protocols.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] Yes, that would.

Brenton Erickson [02:37:29] The third thing is absolutely the first and I'd argue seems like only thing.

John Dehlin [02:37:33] The only thing. Right. Yeah, exactly. Good. Well said. The AP story focused on an Arizona case in which a Latter Day Saint man confessed to his bishop that he had sexually abused his daughter. The bishop, following advice from the helpline about Arizona's law on reporting abuse and its prenatant privilege exception, urged the man and his wife to report the abuse to authorities, but did not do so himself.

Ted Walsh on The Church's Sexual Abuse Response

Brenton Erickson [02:37:56] This was key to me, the Church's response. The official Response did not deny those allegations. And then their reporter in the Deseret News acts like it's a given. Like that is what happened.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:04] Well, it's interesting how he words it, though, because he words it saying, well, the bishop told the perpetrator and the mother to report, but he did not himself. He doesn't say that. Lawyers told him to not report it.

John Dehlin [02:38:18] Exactly. It doesn't add.

Brenton Erickson [02:38:21] It says based on the advice of lawyers. So it is. It's kind of in there based on the advice of the lawyers. This is what he did based on

John Dehlin [02:38:26] the advice of the church's hotline.

Brenton Erickson [02:38:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:38:28] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:38:30] So the church's lawyers on the hotline.

John Dehlin [02:38:31] Yeah, yeah. So he's. He's kind of misleading by leaving out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:36] A really important part. You know, he's all. You know. Yeah. Okay. The bishop who followed him in the lay calling did the same. That bishop held a church disciplinary hearing for the man who was then excommunicated in 2013. The father later began to sexually abuse a newborn daughter. According to the article, Latter Day Saint clergy regularly report abuse to law enforcement based on advice from the helpline. Now, what this doesn't say is how frequently. Right. Whether it's 1% of the time or 2% of the time.

Brenton Erickson [02:39:10] And it doesn't say whether it's ever in state. States where it's not required. Is it only in states where they do that because the lawyer's like, you have to.

John Dehlin [02:39:16] Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:39:17] Or.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] Yeah, yeah, exactly. For example, the church. This is so lame. For example, the church was sued recently in Oregon by a woman whose husband confessed that he was sexually abusing his children and went to prison after a church leader reported the abuse. The plaintiff voluntarily withdrew the lawsuit, which was dismissed with prejudice. And isn't that kind of manipulative to mention that? It's almost like it's saying, hey, we got to be really careful, you know, because lot. You know, we're getting sued all the time. When bishops are reporting to legal authorities.

Brenton Erickson [02:39:50] It does say it was dismissed.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:39:51] Which I. Most people should imply. Why are you mentioning, like, who. Who knows of a judge who would be like, I really want to hear this case about how it was bad that someone saved a child from horrific sexual abuse. Like, I.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Plus, in Oregon. In Oregon, clergy are stated as mandatory reports.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:05] They are.

Brenton Erickson [02:40:06] Yeah. So how could you civilly sue someone for something they legally have to do? It seems. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:09] It's like, why is. Why is. Let's try and get in the mind of Ted Walsh. Why is he including this organ Thing. It feels like a super red herring.

Brenton Erickson [02:40:17] It seem. It seems like he's trying to substantiate this. The church's supposed concern that they could be sued at any point. So he's like, see this? Like, they must have. I'm sorry, but they. They must. They must love being able to refer to that lawsuit.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] No, it's in every apologetic thing I've read. And it just feels like super weak sauce manipulated. The only one, I think probably it's super weak sauce. Manipulative. Look, someone filed a lawsuit once in Oregon. We're in danger. You know what I mean?

Brenton Erickson [02:40:42] Most people wouldn't waste legal fees on a lawsuit that is going, like, going to fail. Like, that just seems so ridiculous.

John Dehlin [02:40:47] Yeah. So that feels. Tad Walsh. That felt manipulative to me. I know you. I know you watch the show. Love you, Tad. Do better. Okay. That lawsuit case illustrated the fact that reporting requirements are different across the United States. Some states, like Oregon, require clergy to report abuse. Laws in other states, such as New York, do not allow clergy to breach priest penitent privilege unless the privilege is waived by the penitent.

states that don't require clergy to report sexual abuse, etc.

Brenton Erickson [02:41:15] I have to be really careful. I'm like, I'm not licensed in New

John Dehlin [02:41:18] York, but this made me want to hate New York.

Brenton Erickson [02:41:21] But I could not confirm if that's the case in New York. I couldn't tell if it's an ambiguous statute and the Church is choosing to take it to an extreme or if that is actually the law in New York. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:41:32] So I. I went ahead and pulled up. So this little grid I have, you can see it over there. It's under the quadrant of neither clergy nor any person enumerated as mandatory reporters in the state.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:46] And this is from a government website, just so everyone knows.

John Dehlin [02:41:49] And privilege not addressed in the reporting laws. So does this mean what it seems like they're trying to say is that in District of Columbia, Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas, New York, Northern Mariana Islands, South Dakota and Virgin Islands that. That clergy are never allowed to tell anything about sexual.

Brenton Erickson [02:42:11] The issue there is. What. What are you talking about? Are you talking about the testimonial privilege? Because all that does is prevent you from saying things from a confession, in trial, or in a court proceeding. I. I can't tell. So this is what I'm saying. Is there a state out there that has a law that says we're actually making it illegal for you to share with anyone in any setting?

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:28] That.

Brenton Erickson [02:42:28] I don't know. That seems strange to me.

John Dehlin [02:42:31] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:42:31] The testimonial privilege is not the same as saying, you cannot share this with anyone under any setting.

John Dehlin [02:42:36] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] It seems to be making us think that there are several states where bishops are not allowed to ever report.

Brenton Erickson [02:42:43] That's what. That's what it's implying. And I'm like, if that's really true, like cite the statue. Because people would love to see that.

John Dehlin [02:42:48] Yeah, that. That essentially to change it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:50] Right?

John Dehlin [02:42:51] Yeah. Like Hawaii, New York. That just seems impossible. Like maybe Texas, you know, but then Texas. Yeah, but Texas is list clergy's mandatory reporter. So like some of the states you'd

Brenton Erickson [02:43:06] expect maybe there's some anti Catholic sentiment there.

John Dehlin [02:43:10] One thing I will say is the box that seems most lenient in this quadrant is that quadrant where clergy are not enumerated as mandatory reporters. And guess what? Who appears there? Idaho, Utah and Wyoming, all of them could easily be influenced by Mormon church legislators. I don't know. You think? I'm. Do you think that's a stretch?

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:34] No, for sure.

Brenton Erickson [02:43:35] Interesting to me, I would assume those states have just. They've just not gotten around to it. They haven't addressed the gaps. I don't know. It just seems like a weird system, especially to not to not mention any person. Most states have the. Any person. Or a lot of them do.

John Dehlin [02:43:48] All right, well, anyway, let's continue on this awesome article.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:52] Just something to point out really quickly. So. Yeah, just. But New New York says that. Yeah, Clergy is not in America is amended reporter rates also says that privilege is not addressed in the reporting laws. So apparently there's no privilege in New York. So.

Brenton Erickson [02:44:07] So they won't get in trouble in the reporting laws. That the church's article is implying that there's something in New York law that. And that's why I cannot confirm. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:17] They're basically saying that if a. If a Catholic priest reports rape of a child to a police officer, they're going to get in trouble.

Brenton Erickson [02:44:24] Yeah, that's what the article implies.

John Dehlin [02:44:26] Tad Walsh, can you give us the data on that? Because I want to see that or listeners and viewers email us or respond in the chat or send us an email or comment later on the YouTube or. Or Facebook feed. Because I really. I'm super curious. I'm sure you are, too.

Brenton Erickson [02:44:41] Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't like, make a statement about it, but I want to. I'd want to read it myself. Like, what statue are they talking about?

John Dehlin [02:44:45] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The church's statement continued the nature and the purpose of the Church's helpline was Seriously mischaracterized in the recent Associated Press article. Really?

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:57] Well, it's mischaracterized if you're going by their own explanation of the.

John Dehlin [02:45:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:02] Not by the actual evidence.

John Dehlin [02:45:04] Yeah, yeah. How is it mischaracterized?

The Mormon Church's Sexual Abuse Helpline

Brenton Erickson [02:45:06] It's a classic PR trick that was seriously mischaracterized, but I'm not going to actually give you the information.

John Dehlin [02:45:11] Yeah, like, okay, yeah, I mean, we read the protocol anyway. The helpline is instrumental in ensuring that all legal requirements for reporting are met. It provides a place for local leaders who serve voluntarily to receive direction from experts to determine who should make a report and, and whether they. Local leaders should play a role in that reporting. When a leader calls the helpline, the conversation is about how to stop the abuse, care for the victim, and ensure compliance with reporting obligations. Even in cases when the law provides clergy penitent privilege or restricts what can be shared from private ecclesiastical conversations.

Brenton Erickson [02:45:49] Again, that last one, I am not aware of a state where that happens. It could, it could. I'm just, it's just surprising to me.

John Dehlin [02:45:54] But, but if they're going to make the claim that the protocol and the helpline is all about how to stop the abuse, how to care for the victim, they should freaking share the protocol. Because the protocol we have says nothing about that. And if they've improved the protocol, share the gosh darn improve protocol so we know what they're doing.

Brenton Erickson [02:46:16] Why would you want the one out there floating around that just focuses on risk if there's a new one that actually has all these conversations first about the victim? Why would you not.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:23] Yeah, show it.

John Dehlin [02:46:23] Yeah, show it. Mormon Church. Show the helpline protocol and just let us all know what it does. Why not? Yeah. All right. Quote. And the helpline is just one of many safeguards put in place by the Church. Any member serving in a role with children or youth. Oh, these are the many things the church does. Number one, any member serving in a role with children or youth is required to complete a training every few years about how to watch for, report and address abuse. First of all, why are you not. Why are you shaking your head right up?

The Mormon Church's Child Safety Training

Brenton Erickson [02:46:57] How about a criminal background check? It seems like that would have fixed the West Virginia issue.

Gerardo Sumano [02:47:02] So my dad was here visiting when he's a bishop, when the case in Argentina broke. And I talked to him about it one night and he said he, he knew about these, these classes or lessons or whatever people should take or members in the world should take. And he told me, oh, yeah, you're right. There's like these lessons that people have to take. I should tell all the members in the well or, or the members that are supposed to take it, to take it. And I literally. He, he had a meeting, like virtual meeting with like, you know, he, the elders Quorum. And I didn't, I was not in the room. But I overheard when he said kind of like everyone should go and watch the, the, the videos and do the training because it's important. But that just shows that, yeah, the training is there, but it's not required. Members are not being. Losing their callings for not taking it.

John Dehlin [02:47:55] And there's a comment here. Elisa writes, I was in the nursery for two years and I was never given any child safety abuse prevention training. I'm sure, you know, Doug Vincent says, I've been through that training and it was minimal and lame. I'm also going to say that even if there is lame training now that most people don't get, which seems like the case, then it came about. When, when did that training become.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:19] After Sam Young.

John Dehlin [02:48:20] After Sam Young who the church excommunicated.

Brenton Erickson [02:48:24] It's a favorite way to change policies to excommunicate someone and then adopt something that they said a little bit later.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] It's, it's like textbook, but also like, why isn't the church doing, doing background checks with, with gazillion dollars in the bank? It's a trillion dollar church. Why don't they use some of that money Instead of buying Tesla stock, why don't they use some of that money? They'd probably save money in lawsuits by, by the money they spend doing background checks. The state of California just recently made it mandatory. So now the church is going to do mandatory background checks in California. But why do we have profit seers and revelators if they're not ahead of state legislatures instead of behind them? Right. Is that fair? Am I being too mean?

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:07] I agree.

John Dehlin [02:49:08] All right, so.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:09] But that's important to know that a member won't lose their calling if they don't go through the training. Like it's not.

John Dehlin [02:49:16] Oh yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:17] It's not like it's mandatory. Oh, you receive the calling today. Make sure you complete the training before you. Like you would be like with a foster parent. We're like, I have to go through, through the training beef and the licensing before I, I become a foster parent.

John Dehlin [02:49:29] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:31] That's not how it goes with the church. So the training is there, but I would bet that most members who hold callings like this haven't even. Yeah, heard about it.

The Mormon Church's statement on abuse

John Dehlin [02:49:43] Next One that the church is saying how great it is with abuse. Church teachers, church teachings and handbooks are clear and unequivocal on the evil's abuse, except for the fact that a pedophile doesn't care what the Church's teachings in the handbook are.

Brenton Erickson [02:49:59] So, like, it's an interesting point because it's like society is also pretty clear about not liking child abuse. Like, I don't know why you get points for teaching the obvious.

John Dehlin [02:50:10] Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like, what was his name? Randy. Who's the abuser in the case? I forget.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:17] Adams. Or. Yeah, the seven.

John Dehlin [02:50:19] The dad. Who's the dad?

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:20] Adams.

John Dehlin [02:50:20] It's like Randy's gonna go, oh, I want to abuse my kid, but my priesthood manual says I shouldn't. Okay, I'll stop.

Brenton Erickson [02:50:27] Right?

John Dehlin [02:50:27] Like, they don't get credit for that. All right? And then the church says, and many members who violate those teachings are disciplined, are disciplined by the Church and may lose their privileges or membership. For me, what stood out for that are the words many and may. Well, go ahead.

Brenton Erickson [02:50:49] Exactly. I mean, especially if you're just dealing with like actual physical abuse or sexual abuse. The fact that many and may just. Why is that? Why is that the policy?

John Dehlin [02:50:58] Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this till the cows come home. If you create a podcast that's. That tells the honest truth about the church's history or if you advocate for same sex marriage or if you get same sex married automatically excommunicated if you rape a child. It's optional. Yeah, maybe if you decide to hold the disciplinary council. Not. Not required, not mandatory. It's just not. Yeah, the church hates truth tellers about history or proponents of loving same sex legal marriage hates them more than they hate rapists and more than they want to protect children.

Brenton Erickson [02:51:37] Maybe you could say that the churches. The church assumes most bishops would call this disciplinary councils, but worries that liberal bishops won't do it. But it's like, why not? Then why not cover everything that you think should mandatorily have just on a list?

John Dehlin [02:51:48] And that's where the November 2015 policy comes into play. Because in that document they explicitly stated the disciplinary councils were mandatory when never before and never since. Have they made the same sort of statement about rape or incest or murder.

Brenton Erickson [02:52:06] Yeah, or murder. That's still not on the list.

John Dehlin [02:52:09] No, murder's still optional. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:16] I think it's communication, but I think murder is. They have to hold a disciplinary council. Okay, well, But I think it used to be different.

John Dehlin [02:52:23] Okay.

Brenton Erickson [02:52:23] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:24] Oh, good.

John Dehlin [02:52:25] All right. So rapists, child rapists in the Mormon Church may lose their privileges or may have a disciplinary council. All right, continue. But thanks for admitting that, dad. Ted Walsh.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:38] This was the church, I think. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:40] This is the official church going on. Quote, the story represented in the AP article is oversimplified and incomplete and is a serious misrepresentation of the church and its efforts. We will continue to teach and follow Jesus Christ's admonition to care for one another, especially in our efforts related to abuse. The statement concluded. You've already commented on that type of rhetoric. Like, why doesn't the church say. Why can't the church go, hey, you know what? Like, abuse happens far too common in this church.

Brenton Erickson [02:53:12] We.

John Dehlin [02:53:13] We've tried to make some improvements, but we still have a long way to go, and we're going to just keep doing our best to make improvements, and we're going to invest a billion dollars in making our church abuse. Proof. Is that reasonable? Like $200 billion in investment stocks, bonds, cash, municipality. Why not a billion dollars? Why not $1 billion? To strengthen the church's program against abuse.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:36] They have a strength strengthening the church members. Come committee, but not one for child abuse.

John Dehlin [02:53:41] Yeah, they have a committee to put her to excommunicate Gerardo. But not, you know, anyway.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:47] Any comments on that?

Brenton Erickson [02:53:48] No, just. Again, they're speaking in generalities. If something's oversimplified, like, just give us the information.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:53] Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:53:53] Give us the information.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:55] The AP story explained that reporting laws vary across the United States. Arizona's child sex abuse reporting law and similar laws in more than 20 states that require clergy to report child sex abuse and neglect say that clergy, physicians, nurses, or anyone caring for a child who reasonably believes a child has been abused or neglected has a legal obligation to report the information to police or the state Department of Child Safety. The story says. But it also says that clergy who receive information about child neglect or sexual abuse during spiritual confessions may withhold that information from authorities if the clergy determined it is reasonable and necessary under church doctrine. Why is the church including this in its response to the article?

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:43] I think they messed up.

John Dehlin [02:54:46] What?

The Church's Official Response to the Bisbee Case

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:46] They messed up. Like, it's. I was surprised by it.

Brenton Erickson [02:54:51] Like, it's not in their official response.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:53] No, no.

Brenton Erickson [02:54:53] The shorter official response does not include that. This is the desert news.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:56] Yeah, this is the desert news.

John Dehlin [02:54:57] This is Tad.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:58] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [02:54:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:54:58] And why is he requesting that?

Brenton Erickson [02:55:00] For the readers that are smart enough to know what actually happened in the Bisbee case he's giving a nod to.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:05] Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:55:05] The legal situation that the Church took advantage of, I think. And the church's official response avoids the core allegations and that actual point. Point entirely.

John Dehlin [02:55:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:16] Just another thing to point out. Just. And I know we already. We're already already done reading the official response, but on the official response, like Brenton said, they don't address the allegations on the article about the case. So. And it's a response to the case. They don't address it. And then they talk about all these things that they're doing, you know, that for like, trainings and all that types of stuff, which we know they're new and they're post the abuse. Right. This. All these things happened after the abuse because we know it was 2012. 20.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:53] So it's like, so misleading. Why are they saying we have all this system for preventing abuse that we

John Dehlin [02:55:58] put in place way after this abuse ever happened? Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. Great point.

Gerardo Sumano [02:56:03] Why are they not. Why are they not admitting, yeah, we messed up, we didn't have these things in place, but now we're doing better. Look at what we're doing now.

John Dehlin [02:56:09] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:56:10] They're making it sound like, oh, we've always done great, and we're great at preventing child sex abuse.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] That's a great point, Gerardo. It's disingenuous to mention improvements they made after this abuse even happened.

Brenton Erickson [02:56:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:22] That's super. Thank you. All right. Yeah. Oh, okay. So just to pause, what grade do we give the Church on its apology or on its response?

The Church's Response to the Abuse Case

Brenton Erickson [02:56:36] I give it like a C minus. And I feel like they are taking advantage of the fact that most of the response is about the more sensational allegations against the Church to avoid entirely. Most of the article, like, the article barely mentions a couple times that people fear the helpline is used in way worse ways. And most of the article is just about this Bisbee case. And the response is like, we're not actually going to talk about that case and the facts at all. The official response.

John Dehlin [02:57:03] But an attorney for the church would say, don't talk about the case. Right.

Brenton Erickson [02:57:08] No, I mean, their own reporter just admitted the facts the way they are. Like, I. They. They're. Yeah. And I suppose maybe they would. May.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:13] Maybe.

Brenton Erickson [02:57:13] Maybe now's not the time for the Church to say, and this is why we advise the bishop not to report like that. That might be a bad idea.

John Dehlin [02:57:19] But yeah, they. In nowhere in the statement do they say, we admit that we advise the bishops not to. Not to report to the police because

Brenton Erickson [02:57:29] that might still be an issue in the lawsuit, but also their own legal filings already give the explanation. We think that our confessions are confidential and we were required to report that. They already have their explanation, but they don't put it in their official response because they don't want members reading that.

John Dehlin [02:57:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Abuse reporting laws also vary county by county. Now we're getting to the county country by country, which means a single policy can't apply to all bishops, and they will need individualized advice, wrote C.D. cunningham, who published a response to the AP story for public Square magazine, which is published by a group of Latter Day Saints. Hate that article. I may talk about it later. The church's published policy on its official website titled Protecting Members and Reporting Abuse, instructs bishops, branch presidents and stake presidents that, quote, the first responsibility of the church in abuse cases is to help those who have been abused and to protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse. Close quote. So I guess we've already addressed the point that those are empty words. If the helpline is actively discouraging bishops from reporting if they don't have to.

Brenton Erickson [02:58:37] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:37] And it's not. Again, it's not a response to the case that the AP is talking about.

John Dehlin [02:58:43] Yeah, yeah, it's. Yep. Okay. So. And I. I just think that's important that the church says one thing publicly and then does something very different behind the scenes, you know? All right. They also state the church is committed to complying with the law in reporting abuse. Laws differ by location, and most church leaders are not legal experts. Calling the helpline is essential for bishop as a Stake presidents to fulfill their responsibilities to report abuse. Is that misleading?

Brenton Erickson [02:59:18] Yeah, because it's. It's Lee. It's hiding the football, and the football being in situations where the law doesn't force us to. We might not report the abuse. It's written in a way to imply that, like, we have to be careful in case we'll get in trouble for reporting, when in reality, the Bisbee case is all about the fact that they could have reported and didn't.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:36] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:59:37] Yeah. And I just think. I just think they keep spinning this helpline like it's there to make sure everyone reports. And the truth is. And we started. And we're going to end this way. We started with the realization that the helpline is there, it seems to make sure minimal report, minimum legal reporting happens. Is that right? That whenever the bishop has the choice to report, that they don't report. That seems to be, like, the main purpose of the Helpline.

Brenton Erickson [03:00:10] Right. Because when they say the helpline is there to ensure legal compliance in all these states where there is a exception for clergy confession, legal compliance means they don't have to report. So it's like, if all you're doing is ensuring legal compliance, there's actually a lot of situations in which you might not be reporting.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:23] Yep. And that language on their motion to dismiss that the exemption is. The state of Arizona offers broad exemptions. Like, it's so disgusting. Like. Yeah. Anyway. Right.

Brenton Erickson [03:00:38] They take it to its limit.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:40] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:42] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:43] So not only what the law says, but, like, they want to expand it and say, this is so broad and we're going to take it. Yeah. Like you said, to the limit. As much as we can. Right?

John Dehlin [03:00:53] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just going to say fulfill their responsibilities to report abuse is. Is legalistic because it's basically saying they're only going to report when they're legally forced to.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:06] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [03:01:06] Right. But they're hiding. Exactly. But it's all coached in language of like, we do what we're supposed to, but they don't. Some members will read that and understand. They mean we do what we're legally required to. Those are two different things.

The Church's General Handbook: Reporting Laws

John Dehlin [03:01:16] Yeah. It goes on to say, a bishop also should notify his stake president of instances of abuse.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:24] Oh, that's great. That means that the stake president knew for sure that the abuse was happening for seven years.

John Dehlin [03:01:32] It's another person that didn't. In addition to the two bishops.

Brenton Erickson [03:01:36] Unless the policy's been added since then, then it wasn't in place at the time of.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:39] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [03:01:40] Yeah. Finally, the church's general handbook says its leaders and members around the world should follow reporting laws. Why are you laughing?

Brenton Erickson [03:01:49] Just because they've said it a thousand times. Like, they think if they say it enough, members will be like, everything is fine, instead of understanding what that means.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:56] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [03:01:56] Reporting laws. Reporting laws. Reporting laws. Reporting laws.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:59] Gosh.

John Dehlin [03:02:01] Yeah. And. And they don't mention that the Arizona law would have let the bishop report if he hadn't have been discouraged from reporting.

Brenton Erickson [03:02:08] Exactly. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:02:09] Yeah. Finally, church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities.

Brenton Erickson [03:02:16] Finally.

John Dehlin [03:02:17] What?

Brenton Erickson [03:02:18] Just the way it says finally. It's like.

John Dehlin [03:02:20] No, that was me. That was me. That was me. I'm sorry. Sorry. That was me, to be honest.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:25] No, but you're just repeating the same thing again.

John Dehlin [03:02:27] Last paragraph. Hallelujah. Praise Joseph Smith. I don't want to say praise Jesus because people be offended. Church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report Abuse to civil authorities. The handbook states, in some locations, leaders and teachers who work with children and youth are considered mandated reporters and must report abuse to legal authorities. Similarly, in many locations, any person who learns of abuse is required to report it to legal authorities. Bishops and stake presidents should call the helpline for details about mandated reporters and other legal requirements for reporting abuse. The. The church's policy is to obey the law.

Brenton Erickson [03:03:06] Again, obeying the law sometimes is the bare minimum.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:03:09] Yeah. Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [03:03:10] I can't believe they refer to the reporting laws that many times in. What a response. So much.

John Dehlin [03:03:15] Yeah. All right. Well, that's Tad Walsh's article and the church's response.

The AP Story Broke My Heart

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:21] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [03:03:22] Yeah. There were two other articles that really made the rounds. One is called Perspective. I Survived abuse. I worked for the Church's helpline. The AP story Broke My Heart by Kate Taylor Lauke. I don't want to take the time to read this word for word. We're almost three hours in. We are three hours in. I'll just summarize it. She basically says, I was horribly abused as a kid. I joined the church, went to, you know, Georgetown Law School, eventually ended up working for Curtin McConkey. I worked on the helpline. It's deeply offensive that anyone would suggest that we were doing anything other than trying to help victims. Did I summarize it fairly?

Brenton Erickson [03:04:05] My. My issue is. She says. She says that the article accuses. Essentially accuses the helpline of hiding abuse and that in her experience, that would never happen. So she's not giving the readers any context to the fact that she has ethical obligations to her client, that as an attorney, there's a lot of things that she cannot divulge, that she's not a mandatory reporter in most states. So she just makes this blanket statement of the abuse line, is never used to hide abuse and gives none of the complicated context.

John Dehlin [03:04:31] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:32] It says. To suggest that an attorney on the helpline is hiding abuse from law enforcement seems disingenuous or inaccurate. From my experience, it just wouldn't happen.

Brenton Erickson [03:04:43] And there's two phrases that are careful phrases in my experience. And also, I cannot speak to the details of this case. And the details of this case show. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:04:51] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [03:04:51] It's just avoiding altogether.

John Dehlin [03:04:53] Yeah, she made the. She made the comment. The very fact that criminal charges have not been brought against anyone from the church is the first indication that the AP article may not have the complete

Brenton Erickson [03:05:04] story that avoids the fact that attorneys in most states are not mandatory reporters. And it kind of assumes that the reader thinks the only allegations are that the people on the helpline are intimidating witnesses and, like, committing criminal acts. Nobody's saying that. Like, the article was not saying that the helpline is committing criminal acts all the time. It was about policy choices.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:24] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [03:05:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:25] And actually, the article doesn't say that anyone's doing anything illegal.

Brenton Erickson [03:05:29] Right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:33] It's putting both sides and saying, these guys are saying, this policy should change.

Brenton Erickson [03:05:39] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:39] And maybe the clergy exemption shouldn't be so broad. And then you have the church saying, no, the exemption is so broad.

Brenton Erickson [03:05:45] Her response moves the goalpost. The article is talking about these specific allegations, and she moves the goalpost to criminal activity. And she's like, we're not committing criminal acts.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:53] Yeah.

Brenton Erickson [03:05:53] So they're lying. And it's like, that's not what the article is.

John Dehlin [03:05:56] Yeah, yeah. I started a comment she made. She writes, I saw firsthand how seriously law enforcement takes child pornography, how ferociously perpetrators are prosecuted and how severely these criminals are punished. And then I wrote, that's why we report. You know. Yeah. Okay. Anything else we want to. Anything you want to mention about that article?

Brenton Erickson [03:06:21] That was it for me for the article.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:23] That's it.

John Dehlin [03:06:23] Okay. That was it. Yeah. And then there's this article. So the church, through its donors, has this apologetic blog called public squaremag.org it's the type of thing, you know, professors like Ralph Hancock like. Like to publish, too. And I just want to read one. One statement that they made that a friend of mine, a good friend of mine who's a former bishop or branch president wrote that he wanted us to address. So here we go. In this. In this article written by. Did I say who wrote writ written by? Oh, I don't have the name of the guy who wrote it. Sorry. It's. Does sexual abuse occur more among the Church of Jesus Christ than the public at large? There's no evidence of that with the available evidence to the contrary. As Jana Reese noted, quote, I have not seen any credible evidence that the incidence of sexual abuse is higher in Latter Day Saint communities than anywhere else. I've certainly seen allegations to that effect. So they're relying on a liberal progressive journalist to kind of bolster their case, which is interesting. Then it goes on. According to documents leaked in 2018, the rate of abuse among missionaries and church leaders is considerably lower than those found among general demographics. In one month, out of 170,000 mission presidents, stake presidents, missionaries, and bishops, only seven were accused of abuse. This rate suggests that if all the accusations were accurate, church leaders and missionaries commit sexual abuse at about 166 the rate, the frequency of men in the same age groups.

Does Sexual Abuse Occur More in The Church of Jesus Christ?

Brenton Erickson [03:08:13] But I don't know if what they're referring to involves guesses about men in the same age groups or actual accusations, because we know it's underreported. So you can't point to reports that were actually made and then statistics about, like, statistics guessing at how prevalent abuse actually is.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:28] And then you have the church trying to hide it. Right, too. Right through their attorney. So how would we know? Because they're literally assessing those specific cases to try to hide those the most.

Brenton Erickson [03:08:39] This moves the goalposts as well. Like, the AP article is not saying pedophilia is rampant among Mormon members. It's talking about the church's policies. And right here, all they're focusing on is, we promise we don't have more pedophiles among our ranks than most people. Like, who's talking about that?

John Dehlin [03:08:54] Yeah, Maven. Maven. Put that quote back up. Maven wants to share a quote. She wrote, there's no evidence that we have higher rates of sexual abuse equals. So we can ignore the totally normal levels of acceptable abuse.

Brenton Erickson [03:09:08] Right.

John Dehlin [03:09:09] Maven, we love you. Thank you for moderating and displaying some comments today. Okay, well. Oh, I. This is throwing down the gauntlet. I love this. Sorry we have to end on this. The question was, how does the Church of Jesus Christ compare with other faith communities when it comes to abuse? While there have been isolated incidents of abuse, the Church of Jesus Christ is now the largest denomination in the United States to have not been implicated in a systemic sexual abuse scandal. True or false?

Mormon Church: We Haven't Been Involved in a Sexual

Brenton Erickson [03:09:44] I mean, if we're talking about just articles like the ap, then. False.

John Dehlin [03:09:48] What about the Boy Scouts of America case?

Brenton Erickson [03:09:50] Right? With the church being so closely connected to boycotts. We were half the.

John Dehlin [03:09:52] We were half the troops. Like. Like, first of all, I don't. I think that's objectively false, that the Mormon Church has not been implicated in a systemic sexual abuse scandal. Because why did the church offer $250 million in a boy Scouts of America's settlement? So, I mean, I think that's objectively false, that statement. But. But even if it weren't, it's kind of putting out a challenge, and it's kind of putting out a challenge to

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:18] Michael, to this reporter, to Mike Resendez.

John Dehlin [03:10:21] Mike Resendez, right. Don't tell the Spotlight reporter that, hey, the churches has yet to be implicated in a, you know, in a systemic sexual abuse scandal, because maybe that guy's not done. Maybe we're not done.

Brenton Erickson [03:10:35] Maybe.

John Dehlin [03:10:36] Maybe Craig Vernon's not done, and maybe Tim Kosnoff is not done, but I would. I wouldn't be issuing challenges like that person.

Brenton Erickson [03:10:43] It's also weird to say that, like, the problem in our Church doesn't look exactly the same as the Catholic Church. It's like, you're right. That makes the problem nothing. It's like, I don't, I don't. Just the argument doesn't make sense. Yeah, like that, that seems to what the statement is like. We haven't had the exact same accusations of all of our bishops doing this and the bishops working together to hide their. It's like, just because the accusations aren't the exact same doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:05] Yeah. All right. Well, we did it. We covered this article, the Church's response, Ted Walsh's additions to the Church's response, and we briefly covered two other apologetic responses. Time for the closing statement. This is, you know, it's like a court case and it's time for the closing statements. And I think we should give. We should, we should give you a chance to give your closing thoughts.

The Church's Response to the Sexual Abuse Case

Brenton Erickson [03:11:39] So my thoughts after this article have been that the things that you can actually confirm from the article's publication of legal filings and statements are shocking and problematic on their own. That's what I feel that a lot of members tend to focus on the more sensational allegations that are harder to prove and comfort themselves with. Well, that might not be true. It's like, read this article and see what's actually just confirmed in this article and ask yourself, like, am I comfortable with that? Like, don't, don't. Just don't avoid it by again, moving the goalposts. Don't avoid it by saying, well, actually, I'm just going to talk about things that might not be true. Look at what's actually confirmed in this article and ask yourself, does that, like, are you comfortable with that, with those policies?

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:23] Yeah, Gerardo, I think my thoughts would be that the Church didn't respond to the article and the allegations on the article. And I think that's something that everyone should always remember. Even though the issue. The Church offered an official response, they did not answer any of the allegations on the article. In fact, like we pointed out, most of the things that they're saying are things that the Church did after the abuse actually happened, the one that's in question. So, yeah, just keep that in mind. The response is a non response. And yeah, they, they just didn't. And Desert News didn't. The oped Didn't. And so the church's response is completely lacking.

John Dehlin [03:13:17] Yeah. What do you guys think the probability is that there is a systemic, there's a, a problem. There has been and is a problem of systemic abuse and cover up within the Mormon Church. Brenton, do you even have an opinion on that?

There Is a Problem of Sexual Abuse in the Mormon Church

Brenton Erickson [03:13:35] Of course I don't have numbers. I think as it's been discussed, there's always a problem with abuse being kept within families. Like it's, it's always a problem when abuse is kept within tight circles. So the most tight circle is the family. And then just another step out of that is the church community. When, when you try to keep it within the community, you're letting it continue. You're not like, we've learned from experience that abuse has to be addressed by putting it into the public sphere. There's no other way. Otherwise it's always going to be hush hush and. Yeah,

Gerardo Sumano [03:14:08] not sure but I mean we put out that social media post asking people to share their experiences with us and it's just crazy how many people in the church have had experiences with sexual abuse and child sex abuse and where the church or church leaders try to hide it, told them to not report it. So just based on anecdotes, it seems like there is a problem.

John Dehlin [03:14:36] Yeah, yeah. And I'm just going to say I have spoken with thousands of Mormons over the years who have experienced sexual abuse within a Mormon context and the vast majority of them were pressured to forgive the abuser, to not file, to not make it public, to not file with police and, and to not tell ward members. And then the perpetrators were protected and then not disciplined. Sometimes the victims were disciplined. Oftentimes the victims are disciplined and the perpetrator wasn't, which is ridiculous. And then the perpetrators have often been allowed to reoffend. Is it better or worse than the Catholic Church and the pedophilia priest scandal? We don't know. But what we do know is that, is that the Mormon Church offered $250 million in the blood the Boy Scouts of America suit. And we know that the Boy Scouts of America was the official young men's program for boys and, and young, young men for the majority of the church's lifetime. So, you know, and that's not to mention the girls, which are just forgotten of generally within the Mormon Church. So. So a couple things we have left in this series. Tomorrow we're going to be interviewing attorney Tim Koff. He's going to be talking about all of this and his perspective on it as someone who sued the church more on on behalf of sexual abuse clients than anyone else. We'll also be having a second segment with Tim about the Boy Scouts of America. If my voice is still alive tomorrow, we are also going to do at least one episode where I'm going to share with you as many direct messages as I can where people tell me that they were specifically told by church leadership not to report to police. And if, if we want to then conclude with maybe a story or two of actual abuse cases, that may be how we close out this series. But I want to thank you so much, Brenton Erickson, for all you have done for us today. I want to thank you for your Tik Tok. Do you want to do any shout out to your Tik Tok channel or any way that people can get a hold of you or follow you with all the good things you do in the world?

Brenton Erickson on Tik Tok

Brenton Erickson [03:16:52] Yeah, just once again, it's called law and the profits, they can just follow on Tik Tok. I have direct messages there.

John Dehlin [03:16:57] We'll include a link in the show notes to your Tik Tok channel. So thank you, Brenton.

Brenton Erickson [03:17:02] Yeah, thanks for inviting me.

John Dehlin [03:17:03] And Gerardo, thanks for being co pilot and shotgun in so many of these episodes. You, you make Mormon stories way better than it ever would be without you. So thank you, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [03:17:15] Thanks, John. Thank you.

Mormon Stories: Thanks to the Donors

John Dehlin [03:17:16] All right. And thanks to all our viewers and listeners. Thanks to Maven for moderating the comments. Thanks to all our viewers and listeners for their amazing comments. If you want to send stories to me, if you, if you have been in, involved in sexual abuse within the Mormon Church context where you were discouraged from reporting to police by Mormon Church leadership, if you were discouraged from reporting, please email me@mormonstoriesmail.com and share your story. We will remain, we will retain your confidentiality. We will make sure we block out names and locations. But we're going to do an episode where we just list and read off 100 of these. And just for the public record of just the few that we've been able to gather to demonstrate that there's a systemic problem here. Thanks to all the donors that make Mormon stories in the Open Stories foundation possible. Thanks to those who gave super chats. Seems like there was one super big super chat that's still up. Thank you, Peter Higgs, for that super chat donation. Thanks to all of you who use that little dollar sign feature on YouTube to support this program. It goes towards supporting our staff, our facilities, our resources, all the things. So if you, if you are a donor thank you. If you're not a contributor, we would love you to become a monthly contributor by going to MormonStories.org clicking on the Donate button, becoming a monthly subscriber to the podcast. We promise that with every last breath that we have until we retire or or just can't do this anymore. We're going to spend all our professional time and most of our private time fighting good causes that provide informed consent to Mormons and non Mormons that support people in their faith crisis and that help people who leave the Mormon Church live happy, healthy lives by finding community. That's what we do. That's what your support provides. I'm exhausted. I'm going to leave now. Love you guys. Thanks for the support. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, and we'll see you all again tomorrow morning for another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.