Introducing the Hosts and Today's Topic

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, a special UK edition. I am your host, John Dehlin or one of your hosts for today. It is June 7, 2023 and we have a super exciting special news flash announcement. The topic for today is keeping LDS children safe in the uk. I would add as a, as a little addition today I have as my co host Nemo the Mormon from the Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel. And we're also featuring Jane of 21st Century Saints), which is another podcast and YouTube channel in the progressive and post Mormon space in the uk. But what we're going to be talking about today is breaking news that apparently the, the Mormon Church in the UK is going to be requiring background checks of any church members who are called to work with children or youth throughout the entire country.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] And if any of you have been following Mormon Stories podcast for the past 10 or 15 years and the work of Sam Young and Protect LDS children and all the abuse cases that we've been covering, just so many people for so many years and decades have been hoping that the Mormon Church would just do a simple thing that so many other mainstream religions do across the United States and across the world, which is to have background checks on anyone who works with children or youth. And even in the state of California in the United States, as I understand it, this has actually become law.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] But you know, we're all wondering why the Mormon Church, with its quarter of a trillion dollars, wouldn't just sort of take this tiny and relatively inexpensive step to protect children. And it turns out that a small group of activists in the uk, and I would say particularly activist women in the uk, have made monumental strides towards helping the Mormon Church, at least in one country, do the right thing. So without any further ado, we have Nemo the Mormon joining us. He is a face that's familiar to hopefully all of you. Hey, Nemo.

Nemo [00:02:27] Hey, how's it going?

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Thanks for, thanks for making this episode happen.

Nemo [00:02:31] I'm so excited. I'm unbelievably excited.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] And we have Jane from the YouTube channel and podcast 21st Century Saints). Hey, Jane. And are you muted, Jane?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:02:45] I am, yeah.

Nemo [00:02:47] She did an rfm.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Welcome, Jane.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:02:52] Yes, it is great to see you.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Yeah, yeah. And you're. This is not your first time on Mormon stories, right? You've been on at least a few other times.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:02:59] No, I. So just we did a Brit vengers panel way back when we were covering the, the British rescue. But yeah, this is the, this is the first time where I, where I haven't had the whole of the rest of the team with me, so.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Yeah, well, 21st Century Saints) is an amazing, wonderful YouTube channel podcast that you all need to check out. We'll make sure and include in the show notes a link to that amazing channel. You guys need to subscribe to it, donate to it, follow it, watch it, and all the good things. Along with Nemo, the Mormon channel today, I'm going to definitely be taking a back seat. So I'm going to be. I'm going to switch up the panels right now and we're going to let Nemo sort of step in as main host and we'll let him guide this interview and then I'll. I'll interject a question or a comment here, there, and I'll also be monitoring this amazing live stream that we have of YouTubers and Facebookers that may have questions or input or feedback for us. But Nemo, let's let me turn the time over to you.

Nemo [00:03:59] Yeah, I mean, when it says, when John says go and subscribe to them and donate to them, you know, you're kind of thinking, oh, why would I do that? After this episode, I promise you, you are going to see exactly the value proposition in supporting their work because it is gold. It's been, it's been my privilege to work with them in affecting this activism. I want to ask Jane some questions. Am I in control, John, of who's on screen? When do I have this power?

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah. Yeah, okay, I'll take that over. You're in charge.

Nemo [00:04:26] Yeah, I have that. Nice.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] You've got the power.

Nemo [00:04:29] Okay, so I've got to try and remember to full screen people, but I think it'll be good. Jane, can you just tell us a little bit about what the state, before all this kicked off, what was the state of safeguarding in the UK Church? I think that's.

What Safeguarding Means and Why It Matters

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Tell us what safeguarding means.

Nemo [00:04:42] What does that mean and what it meant? Yeah, context, all that stuff.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:04:46] Okay, well, first of all, I want to give a little bit of context about why I can speak. What gives me the right to speak about this. So I am still an engaged Mormon. We churches part of my, my construct. That's how it's the language of that I've learned to speak.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] What country? What country are you from, James?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:05:09] Scotland. Yeah, so I, I'm, I'm in Glasgow state, just outside, you know, and just, I live just outside of Glasgow. So yeah, we, we've been church members who've brought our children up in the church. Ruth, who's a member of the team has taken a step back from Mormonism, has disaffiliated and we also have Sarah, who Sarah is a really important part of our story.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:05:34] So for years, members of the church in the United Kingdom have noticed that there is a disconnect between what we see professionally happening, what we could expect in schools, what kind of standards keeping people safe should look like.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:05:54] There are really stringent laws around it. We fought really hard to get those laws. And then the same people who held callings in church. So for example, Sara has worked in a space with, working with people who've been convicted of sex offences, working with social work for many, many years. Sarah has been part of creating policies. And so all of these people, not just in the UK but across the world, are saying we, there's a problem, church isn't safe or certainly not as safe as it could be. Lots of people are. We're seeing an increase in abuse cases being talked about and we see all of these gaps in the church system. So maybe.

The Church's History of Child Protection Failures

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Question, can I ask. So you know, obviously in the United States, the Boy Scouts of America, you know, the Mormon Church was willing to pay $750 million because there's been like something like 80,000 young Mormon boys sexually abused within the Boy Scouts context. In some ways it's destroyed the Boy Scouts of America. The Associated Press and Mike Resendez, I think is his name, has been covering the outpouring of sexual abuse within Mormonism that's been covered up for decades. And of course the Catholic Church and the Spotlight movie has helped uncover systemic pedophilia with Catholic priests for, for decades, if not centuries or millennia in multiple countries across the world. Has, has the UK experienced a lot of historical child and youth abuse? And if so, can you talk a little bit about that to let us know whether these problems that are so problematic in the United States have also historically been a problem there?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:07:47] Yeah, that's an excellent question. We certainly haven't had anything like the scale of church related, Mormon church related scandals. Everything has.

Nemo [00:07:59] Outside of Ireland.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:08:01] Outside of Ireland, we, we certainly have spoken with a lot of victims and it seems that it just hasn't reached that critical mass yet. But I'll have more to say about that later. What we have had is that really changed. I think a lot of the landscape recently was a massive inquiry that was, that was launched because an entertainer that was related to an entertainer called Jimmy Savile, he was heavily involved with the BBC, could do lots of charity work, was hugely respected and towards the end of his life, this open secret that he was, he was a sex predator, he abused children. Over the course of many years, things hadn't been put in place to keep children safe and the vulnerable people that he was working with safe.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:08:53] So inquiries were launched that started looking at churches, that started looking at our media organizations, at social work, at all of these different levels. So it's really being looked at right now, the UK and, sorry, the England and Wales inquiry made their recommendations last year. Year the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) gave evidence and that testimony.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:09:20] The Scottish Inquiry will be making their recommendations this year. So Mormonism has touched it and of course, we are very, very aware of the uniquely Mormon way that abuse cases where it touches the church play out. It happens in a. In a uniquely Mormon way, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Got it.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:09:43] So, yeah, so part of the, the background, I guess, is that as, as church members, we are seeing fantastic training that came out because we were told it was fantastic training. There's a, there is a. When someone is working with children and youth, there's a video that we get to watch which was really, really new. And yeah, there's handbook updates. Except this still wasn't marrying up with what professional standards looked like, what, what we should be doing and what is sort of universally acknowledged in the uk that this is what good safeguarding looks like.

Nemo [00:10:24] And the Church said in that inquiry, did they not, that, you know, they weren't doing background checks because they didn't believe background checks would help, because they believed they had their own robust systems of flagging members, records, etc, all available already.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:10:40] So. Well, let's be fair. Yeah. Because some of the, the evidence. Now, I disagree with a lot of what was said in that inquiry. If anyone wants to go and have a look, it's the EXA inquiry. You can go online, find the Church's testimony there.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:10:56] However, it's worth pointing out that there are really interesting things that the Church do around safeguarding. Now, I know our Mormon audience, this is the space I live in. So I am aware that when I say this there's a lot of nuance behind it. But there are a couple of things that we've drawn attention to.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:11:17] The training video. Now, the training video is completely horrific, insufficient and in fact the cartoon nature of it makes it really dangerous and minimizes abuse. But there are. It exists. There have been clear policy statements made by church leaders about how it's not acceptable in any church or home.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:11:39] We've had Elder Oaks telling us that we are the voices for children who can't speak for themselves. And we need to put their interests above selfish adult interests. The system of annotation of church records, that's something that's actually in this case, although it can be problematic in other areas, that's something that the church do so that if you move to another area there is a joined up system to communicate risk. So that's something really interesting too. So there are things that are being done that are notable the other thing,

Nemo [00:12:19] but at the same time the system.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:12:22] Yeah, and like I say, we've got things to say about this. The system of sustaining there is an opportunity. As so in the EX inquiry it was pointed out that when someone is called to a position, they are interviewed. It's a searching interview, A discussion happens about whether that's an appropriate calling and then that name is put before the entirety of the ward so they have the opportunity to share any concerns that they would have about that. Now obviously we know that to go to the extent of not sustaining someone or in fact opposing someone in a calling, that's not done. We know that there are problems, right?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:13:08] We know that there are problems with the annotation system. And so this is our starting point. The church is doing some things and it's not enough. And we've had professionals for their whole careers who are saying we need to do more. But the problem is they were coming up against, we were coming up against church leaders who would sort of agree or who would sort of feel, well, the church is already doing something. The prophet will let us know if more needs to be done. This will come from, you know, this will come from on high. The leaders know what they're doing.

Nemo [00:13:45] In fact, I believe near the beginning someone was told by someone won't mention names to protect some people, that if we were to press this issue it would result in church leaders dragging their legs and actively not implementing these changes because of the pressure.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:14:03] Yeah, we've been told that by a few people. We've been told that, yeah, church safeguarding is fine. There isn't a problem. Priesthood holders are particularly, you know, they're called of God. It casts doubt on the ability to discern. And the whole point is yes it does and yes it should because abuse happens. Now these inquiries have the people who testify and the inquiries, these organizations have the opportunity to respond what they've learned as part of this process. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) has not responded, they have not published what they have learned because it seems like they didn't really think they had anything to learn.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:14:47] I mean I would, I would love to go and find out tomorrow that our response has been published, that would be wonderful. But since last November, certainly there has been nothing that we've been made aware of. So that's what, that's what safeguarding has looked like. We know that people have been talking about it, we know that people have been expressing concerns about it. And most importantly, we know that there are victims who have been consistently silenced, who have been discouraged from coming forward, seen as perhaps a lack of faithfulness.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:15:20] But most really seriously, we give this illusion that safeguarding is happening when members think we're safe because the church is telling us you're safe. So there can't be a problem, can there? Yeah.

Nemo [00:15:35] What are your thoughts, John?

John Dehlin [00:15:37] And for those who are just totally unaware of more of the details of what's going on, give our never Mormon listeners a sense for what are the common scenarios where adults would have one on one or alone access to children and youth in the UK give three to five of the most common scenarios that the church would be reassuring everyone is still safe. Does that make sense?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:16:02] So yes, it does make sense and it's another common thing that we would be talked to that members would say, we now have a policy of two deep leadership. So in a class there have to be two adults present now for teaching.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:16:19] The problem with that is when there are two people, depending on how that power dynamic looks. If it's a married couple, perhaps one person maybe disempowered and being able to be the safe person and advocate for what's right.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:16:38] Frequently we have closed door interviews. Although these things may be getting better, they still tend to happen. And those interviews and discussions would happen around the subject of worthiness, of chastity, of dress, of masturbation, really serious things. We also have dynamics, just simple play of power where women can feel like they don't have a voice. Now let me just give you some context to what we're talking about when we say safeguarding. Because up until, up until Sarah came on the scene and Sarah's in the comments and is able to help, you know, answer questions and things, Sarah and Ruth are there with us.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:17:23] Safeguarding is about more than the one topic of child protection. While children and youth are tending to be the most vulnerable group that we hear most about and most child abuse issues tend to be child on child abuse statistically. So we have dynamics of supporting children when they're alone together, what that can look like, children having sleepovers and the assumption that because who you're having a sleepover with, we have families that we're very close with those relationships happen.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:18:06] But in addition to that, we have elderly parents, we have elderly members of the church and an aging population anyway, who are having one to one closed door financial interviews with their bishops about how much money they are paying, whether they should be paying more and have they perhaps considered using their finances, selling their home, serving a mission and adults who are over the age of 60.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:18:37] Most adult abuse issues are that age group. What else? Other safeguarding vulnerable groups. We're talking about people in the LGBTQ community, people of African descent, travelers, women. So this is about more than just children. We can see that actually, when you look at it, most people who are attending church could fall into that vulnerable category. And so safeguarding is about more than just child protection. And Sarah has really brought that subject, that language into Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] That's such a great set of concepts and ideas. You all still have one on one interviews where like a 12 year old girl could be asked by her Mormon bishop in the UK if she masturbates, or a 16 year old girl or boy could be asked, did you make out? Who did you make out with? Did you touch each other? Where did you touch each other? Are one on one interviews still a thing as well? Because bishops can be predators and abusers too, right?

Nemo [00:19:38] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The interviews are still happening that you can have a parent present if it's requested, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. But this, at least with these background checks, is a way of checking that, that. So that's why I said there's two sides to this. There's checking that someone's never done something before and then creating a culture in which they can't do something even if they've never done it before. So what this is a step towards is checking that no one's been caught doing this and convicted of doing this or even given, you know, a warning for various behaviors. So anyone that could be called to a bishop, you're now going to find out if they've done something wrong, it's not going to stop them. Which is why more needs to still be done.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:20:20] Yes. So generally speaking across the uk, what we would see is if you're working with disabled children, elderly people, any of those vulnerable groups, DBS checks or background checks would, would be done. Now, what that looks like is that the person who, because there are different systems across the world, what it looks like is were I to be

John Dehlin [00:20:46] someone

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:20:46] who's going to get this DBS check in Scotland, it's disclosure Scotland, or a PVG check protecting vulnerable groups. These are standard. Even if I volunteer to take my kids class on a trip as a parent helper, everyone gets them, I know that it's happening, I agree to it. I sign a form that has a basic bit of information about previous addresses and I receive a certificate. Those things are updated if you work in different contexts. So if you move employer or perhaps you have a DBS check through your, through your employer, you would have a separate one if you're going to volunteer to perhaps, you know, volunteer at a care home or something like that. So these things are very, very standard. They're not intrusive and they're part of UK cult.

Nemo [00:21:42] Yeah, I mean I had one when I was working as a clinician in a hospital. I had to have an enhanced one. So it's basic and enhanced. Yeah, it's very normal. Like Jane said, you know, for an American context, a field trip. I don't know whether parents go on field trips in US schools, but in the UK it's quite common for parents to go and help chaperone children on big class trips. And yeah, you have to be checked in order to do these things. So it's a part of British life. So it's a very normal thing. And we don't tend to have some of the same attitude, how do I say this delicately? We don't have some of the same attitudes towards privacy and government intervention that some groups of Americans have.

How Activists Began Campaigning for Change

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:22:28] So I think this is the point where perhaps it would be really important to mention how then we start working in this space. So as a church member, all of my friends have left the church, they're leaving the church and my last hope that I can have someone to sit next to on a Sunday is Alana. She's heading out the door. It's. The place is just traumatizing her. And so I, I've been nuanced for what, like the past 15 years since like I came back to church. The past 20 years. Oh, I'm old.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:23:03] And so I started a podcast so that we can have conversations that we wish that we were having at church because everyone who was leaving, we could all talk about it separately. I was so excited that, oh, you're moving into this new one space. This is wonderful. Come in. The water's lovely. It's not fun always and it can be really traumatic. But now we have, we have people who are nuanced and it's fantastic.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:23:30] One of my dear friends who is serving as primary press resident and you know, as a 19 year old woman, she was telling us out in the foyer about, you know, this. It was the, remember a few years ago, it was the slut shame month where the subject was about, I can dress modestly. And it was just primary was just, you know, a complete car crash.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:23:53] And she was just really clear, I'm not teaching the kids that. And I'm thinking, at last this is what the church can look like. So we started a podcast. And as soon as you create a safe, safe space for people to start talking and sharing their lived experience, our focus is on how are you experiencing Mormonism? What does it look like for you?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:24:14] People start telling you and stories of abuse started to be shared. Less traumatic, believe or not. Sorry, More traumatic than the stories of abuse were the stories of how the community were responding to that abuse. So we began working with specifically one person that I know is watching who we, we love you, you know who you are. Who's never shared their story.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:24:43] And we thought what we'd like to do is make sure that the landscape is as safe as possible for you to share it. So one example would be that as part of the Scottish inquiry, some issues around Mormonism came up. And as these stories were being shared online, this evidence and testimony was being shared online. We were going into, into comments on, on newspapers and, and, and church related things. We saw this split of Mormons and it wasn't Mormons, ex Mormons, it was Mormons and ex Mormons who were so, so split on.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:25:23] We shouldn't be talking about this. We know these people, we love these people. And everybody was sort of picking sides and it was just so traumatic to watch. But more than that, we were seeing people in the comments who were then justifying why it's absolutely fine to hit your children.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:25:43] And we really need to look at what this dynamic is. So we started more formally working in this space. With Sarah's incredible expertise and our platform, we started to have the conversations. We asked if victims would speak and they did. So we've spoken. We've looked at over 100 cases, we've spoken to over 100 people and uniformly.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:26:09] And what we found so far, we've also launched a survey so that if people don't want to speak to us directly, but you would find an anonymous survey more comfortable, you can use that so that that is still open. So this is very much ongoing, but at this point we have only spoken to one person in that hundreds who has ever felt completely supported by their Mormon community.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:26:36] And we have not spoken to any people whatsoever who have felt supported by their church leaders. And that's horrific to us that. That was so jarring. So we, like I say, we started working in this space. We, as part of the Brit vengers, we have great people to bounce ideas off.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:27:00] And so we're hearing from leaders that this is really important to them. We're hearing from members that it's really important to them. Ex members. Everybody was on the same page and that was something that I hadn't seen happening before.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:27:17] So we begin. Last August, we launched an open letter. Podcasters across the world signed it. So all of your favorites are on there, Bill, Real rfm. We have plenty of time.

Nemo [00:27:29] I think John signed it.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] Right?

Nemo [00:27:32] Did you sign it, John? Should we shame him publicly?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:27:36] Only because I know he was busy. Like, I know that. I know that you got to see it. But things are happening, buster.

Nemo [00:27:45] It's good. It's good to keep John humble.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Right?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:27:47] Oh, you are the best, Nemo. I would. I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have called you out, John. I wouldn't have.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] I'll take it.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:27:53] I would take it. I would have left your shame to grow by itself anyway. No, that's very morbid. All the other guys signed it. So we were good. Yeah, so we did that. We launched a petition and basically what we were asking for was a robust background checks. Oh, John, do you want to say add your name to the petition?

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Sure. Yeah.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:28:16] Right. Thank you. There we go. See, it's. This is how we. We repent and we move on.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Send a link. I've got. I've got opinions about petitions, but. But we'll. We'll talk about.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:28:29] This was the. This was the open letter where anyone can sign the petition. But yeah, the open letter. We wanted to really corral people who had strong thoughts. Yeah, we. Then. Where did we start? We started meeting with national charities. We started meeting with solicitors, church leadership, church legal leadership.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:28:54] We started meeting with media organizations. And all through this time, we're meeting with victims while we're sending this message, hand delivering it to the open letter, requesting robust background checks, requesting safeguarding measures to be implemented. It was received with grace and with support. Actually. We were delighted with how it was received. We had fantastic conversations. We were then asked to do a presentation to a national conference on our work on child abuse and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:29:33] We presented that beforehand to leaders in the church so that they could get our thoughts on what was happening. That went really, really well. We've had some really great experiences and most importantly, built fantastic Relationships now also, we were pains in the ass. They did not like. They did not like some of the language they were used.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:29:55] We got some. I'll hold on to this bit for a little bit. The, the bet that almost broke them. We sent letters to every single bishop in every single ward in the United Kingdom letting them know that they are responsible if they knowingly call someone to a position where a child could be.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:30:18] If it was then found out that they shouldn't have had that calling, if they knowingly that there are legal implications. And we sent them information about what their legal responsibilities were. Nemo the Mormon served as our secretary for the month, helping us to. Sorry, Nemo, what was that like for you?

Nemo [00:30:37] Well, I wrote the letter based on what Jane wanted. So I said, right, what are the points you want to make? So I wrote the letter keeping it to a side of A4, which is, I don't know how you explain A4 size paper to Americans. Standard paper size. Right.

Nemo [00:30:52] Office letter, whatever. Anyway, so we got this one side of paper and I then trawled the church's meeting house locator for the name and meeting house address, very important meeting house address, of every bishop in the UK, all 300 and whatever of them that was.

Nemo [00:31:12] And then with the kind support of donors who paid for stamps, Jane and 21st century saints were able to send that letter that I had written to make their points to every bishop at their meeting house address. So it went to every single one of them, all over. Now what the church does for some meeting houses is they have a redirect in place so that the letters will go to the bishop's home.

Nemo [00:31:40] The church then tried to scare Monger in a following letter that they sent saying, we don't know how they got your personal information, but it was, it was, we hadn't got their personal information. The church had put the redirect in place. We just got publicly available names of who the bishop was and where the meeting house was located. That's all we did. And they didn't like it. And they didn't like the fact that 21st century saints were working with me because without getting too into it, my fingerprints were all over that letter. I included some language and some things that I'd already spoken about that they knew.

Nemo [00:32:14] And in that response letter that they sent, which we've done a podcast about, in the response letter that the lawyers sent, they spoke about the fact that 21st century saints were working with, and I quote, the individual who has been spreading misinformation.

Nemo [00:32:27] So they Weren't happy with those tactics or with the company that Jane and 21st century's essentially states keep. Is that fair to say? Jane?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:32:38] Actually that's. Yeah. And that was our big problem with it. So the letter was actually very well received. We got lots of thanks. It was very.

Nemo [00:32:48] Oh, by the bishops themselves.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:32:49] Yeah, yeah, by the bishops. It made people really nervous about their personal information. Yeah. But yeah, it upset people because we, we did this. And one of the things that was mentioned was that now they had taken the time having seen this letter, having listened to us or certainly at least gone through the motions of listening to us, they then take it a bit more seriously and they have a look at our website, the petitions, the open letters that we had that we had sent. And yeah, specifically they have concerns about the company we keep and who our friends are, the people whose names are on those open letters.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:33:40] Now, I want to put a pin in that because it's so important and what happens next. So just for context, Julian from the Brit Avengers has been having a conversation one day as we were talking about safeguarding, saying, you know what, some should write a letter. Everyone needs to know this excellent idea. We're going to do that. Nemo helped doing so much of groundwork. Peter Bleakley was doing all of this research for us. Everyone was working together and it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. Everyone for the same purpose.

Nemo [00:34:21] Yeah, we made them nervous to make that clear. Like Jane's an active believing Mormon who goes to church. I'm in a slightly different position. I go to church. I, you know, I'm actively attending church, you know, all these sorts of things. I'm a bit more bluntly critical maybe than, than Jane in her work. Peter Bleak, who's been excommunicated Priesthood Dispatches resigned his membership and is possibly the most irreverent out of all of us. You know, there's, there's people from all over the Mormon, ex Mormon, post Mormon, what nuanced Mormon space are all united in the cause of trying to keep children safe.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:34:57] Let me. Yeah, and, and let me go even further than that because one of our Brett Vengers had shared his story of abuse in the church. He was vulnerable and brave and pd, we love you. And your story is what centers this background. It's, it's the people who have experienced this. PD is working so hard to support us. And, and I just want, for those

John Dehlin [00:35:26] who don't know, PD is, is the. He's Priesthood Dispatches is his Internet name. And I think we did a Mormon Stories Episode with. With PD or Priesthood Dispatches corrected. Yeah, okay, we'll include that. We'll include that in the show notes.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:35:40] So he. I mean, he says things that give me a nosebleed, but, oh, my goodness, that man is wonderful. And he has worked so hard with us and his vulnerability and honesty and shaming. So I have been very clear on this. I don't care who you are or what calling you hold. I don't care what level of authority you have. I will not be told who my friends are. I will not be told who I get to stand in this space with, because they are the best of humans, and they are certainly in this space, they have done more for child protection than any other leader I can think of.

Negotiations With the Church and the Open Letter

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:36:19] So I love you, pd And I just want to say that. Okay, so what happens next? Yeah, we. We made the church nervous, but they. We just kept working with them. We express our love and appreciation for them because also appreciate that we're not just talking about us when I'm saying that people who have been working and their. Their careers and have to have DBS checks and know what good safeguarding looks like when they come to church, and they can see the holes and the.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:36:48] The system here. They can see the problems. Leaders have been saying this for such a long time. Everyone wants this, but no one's actually doing anything to sort of shove it up to the decision makers. And so I think that's pretty much what seems to have happened.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:37:10] A committee was established. Now, that has never happened before based on activism, just. Just to have a committee. And my. I was furious. So this work is going to sit with a committee for however long and now it might be in church terms, that is radically. You know, that's a historic moment. Yeah, we got that. But. Oh, screw you. Come on. This is. This is really. This is obvious stuff. We would make recommendations to the committee.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:37:41] We offered our Sarah to sit as part of that committee, which was. It wasn't declined. It was just kind of ignored. So we've got this, Sisters. Thank you very much. But certainly Sara's information was. Was consistently being presented to the committee. So the people who have sat on it have done incredible work, and the people that they have counseled with, we really appreciate.

Nemo [00:38:02] Can I just jump in, Jade, with something real quick? Just.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:38:04] Yes, please.

Nemo [00:38:05] Because I think it's important that what we modeled for some of. And I want to. I could spend this whole podcast heaping praise on some of the local leaders that were involved in making this happen, because this wasn't just activism. From us.

Nemo [00:38:19] Because activism requires. And for things to change, it requires multiple groups of people. Right. It requires your activists. It requires your inside men who can actually affect change. It requires. You know, it requires different groups of people. And I think what we've shown some of these local leaders and what we encouraged in some of these local leaders was that disagreeing with the status quo was okay. And that actually, if they did feel stronger about this, they could push a little bit and they could ask the questions of the people above them, and they could kind of push that a little bit because we were giving them all that pressure, and I think they were seeing that, okay, no, people can get passionate about this, and this is an important issue. That's my thoughts on that. Sorry, Jane. Carry on.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Yeah.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:39:02] And what that looked like in real terms with us was, oh, I mean, we pissed them off. We really did. We let them know exactly what we thought. We didn't change our language around that. But we also supported, expressed our love. We were able to share the voices of the victims. Would it be okay? Just in their honor, I want to just quickly share a couple of quotes. You see, some of the things that we were presenting were being met with disbelief. We were told that not one person would have been called without, you know, if a DBS check was in place, it would be irrelevant because it. Nobody. It wouldn't have caught anybody. We.

Nemo [00:39:50] We weren't told that. The government inquiry was told that by the church's lawyer.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:39:57] Let me just go further. I was told that by the lead legal council. I love you and I still want to marry you. Elder Creek. He is beautiful and very.

Nemo [00:40:07] Has got a crush on the church's head legal.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:40:09] I don't know that that is why we're in this place, but I do it. I am an admirer, anyway. Yeah. No, to be told that. To be told that. Are you actually. I think the language around is. Are you actually suggesting that we would call someone? Knowingly, would they have a background of. Of abuse? And. And, yeah, the answer is. How do you know exactly what we are telling you?

Nemo [00:40:34] How do you know if you don't check?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:40:35] Because we have. No. You have been doing it, right? Yes, but also no.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] John.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:40:44] They know. They know who these people are in every ward and every stake throughout the world, is very rare. That abuse is happening in a vacuum. Most of these situations that we read about, especially in the media, most of the reporting that we've experienced, people know. Your bishop knows. People confess. People are never going to do it again. People are deeply regretful victims. Are coming forward and, and it just sort of stops there. People, people know, and especially when a church goes into the, A call goes into the church's safeguarding helpline, which is a whole other problem that I have.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:41:26] You're saying this and you know who they are. Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. People are being called with backgrounds of domestic violence, spouse abuse, child abuse, and these things do happen. We've spoken to them and what we had offered was if you, if there are any of the people who have experienced this who actually would, would be willing to speak to you, we can certainly facilitate that as long as there would be no further harm caused by that conversation. And certainly at first they didn't, they didn't take us up on that offer. The landscape around that has changed now. But I do want to just really quickly just shout out a couple of these quotes.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:42:07] And these are from our survey. Someone said, I heard the whole God doesn't intervene thing, except he does repeatedly in the scriptures. So apparently he just doesn't intervene in cases when priesthood holders are the abusers. Someone else says, the only thing I'm interested in at this point is, is injustice. And the church is in no way shape or form about justice. It is in fact opposed to justice.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:42:38] This next person who says, I am still afraid of my abuser, my leader sided with my abuser, my friend left her abusive husband, he was able to continue in the church like nothing has happened. So these are the stories that we're putting in front of.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:42:56] We don't want to believe abuse exists. We don't want to believe that it's happening in our family because it is terrifying. But we are vulnerable. And unfortunately, when forgiveness is weaponized, when we are too afraid to really look to even acknowledge who the vulnerable groups are in the first place, we can't possibly keep someone safe if we have all of these blind spots, if we are not willing to really look at the problem. Now, at no point in any of these, on that committee, no victim is a part of that committee, no survivor of abuse. The recommendations from some of these ICSA reports is that there should be safeguarding officers, that any safeguarding policy should be shaped by victim experiences.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:43:40] And that is what we're pushing for. We're also pushing for third party external safeguarding reporting so that if safeguarding is reported, that is overseen by an external agency

Nemo [00:43:58] for them at the moment. John, I just want to get your thoughts real quick because there's so much has just been thrown out here. What are your thoughts at the Moment. Now that you've heard a bit about how we progressed to this point, how this activism took hold.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Yeah, well, I'm just inspired by it. And it's just so different than any, you know, I mean, just with this whole story, and we talked about this beforehand, the. The pattern in the United States is the following. Activists get concerned about, you know, priesthood abuse or LGBT rights or women's rights or church history. And in every case, the concerns are credible and well founded. And so people start trying to talk to priesthood leadership, and they get ignored or shut down. And so they try and speak publicly to help the church do the right thing. And inevitably, whether it's Sam Young or Kate Kelly or Bill Real or Jeremy Runnels or, you know, the September six or whatever, ultimately the activists get excommunicated and then wait six or 12 or 24 months, and whatever changes the activists were sort of agitating for get made in some piecemeal form.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] And that's pretty much. But. But this idea of actually engaging with church leadership and then having. And being listened to, and then, heaven forbid, actual changes getting made within that dialogue, and. And then, you know, the activists not getting cut off and excommunicated, that's just literally unheard of in my world. And I'm sure I have extreme, in some sense, extreme exposures to some of these forms of activism. I'm sure there's a lot of quiet activism that goes on that I'm not privy to. But, you know, this whole story just seems like, like bizarro land from an entirely different world. And I know we're not even done with the story yet, but that's the framing that just. My mouth is open this whole time, just saying what. What is happened. What church is this?

Nemo [00:46:20] It's not just you, though, John, because, like, if you. If you pull up the. The slides that I've sent you, we're gonna play this real quick. Clip from Ahmed Corbett.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Yeah. Okay. You want to play the clip now?

Nemo [00:46:30] Yes, please. Yeah.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:46:31] Okay. When activism or advocacy is directed at the Kingdom of God on earth or

Video Clip 1 [00:46:41] its leaders, especially prophets and apostles, it

Video Clip 1 [00:46:44] is the wrong tool for the wrong job in the wrong place.

Nemo [00:46:49] As simple as that. Okay, so that is. That informs your lived experience there, John. Like, that is the party line, which makes this all the more incredible that Jane and Sara and Ruth and to a lesser extent, the rest of us, I guess, manage this, because the official party line is don't tell us what to do. Don't advocate for your children. He went on to say in conference, don't advocate for your children. Don't be on their side. It's admirable that you want to, but it's beneath you to do so, was what he said. So just as the church is ramping this up here in little old England, not only do we do food better, we also do Mormonism better.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] Are you saying mutton and mushy peas are somehow better? Like, what are you talking about there?

Nemo [00:47:38] Sorry, Haggis. Right, Jane?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:47:41] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] No, I love British food. I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding.

Nemo [00:47:45] Cool, right? Sorry, Jane. So. So we're at the point of the story where they don't like it. They've been listening. You guys are pushing for victims voices to be heard, but they've at least formed this committee. You guys aren't on the committee, which maybe would have been a bit of a step too far. Bit of an ass.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:48:02] It was worth a try, right?

Nemo [00:48:03] But Sara's ideas and advice keeps permeating through to this committee because I think the church leaders involved have realized there is a source of valuable safeguarding expertise in Sahra, and they can't deny that. And in. Yeah, as well.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:48:19] But, you know, people keep reaching out to Sarah to ask for advice on their safeguarding issues. Not the church helpline or who knows, maybe you're using that too. But, you know, certainly with the. Not just with the specifics, but with the policies, because they're smart enough to ask the expert. This is. This is just beautiful.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:48:40] I mean, they love us. We have really good relationships with them. We are freaking adorable. And even though we push, push and we're annoying. Yeah, no, we have. You try saying no to Sarah. She will end you. Anyway. So, yeah, I think. I think Sarah has this wonderful balance of just this. This power and she can get things done. Anyway, I think this is the point in the story where I just want to make it personal for a little second before the announcement.

The Moment UK Background Checks Were Announced

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:49:16] So we recently had the talk that was aimed at single adults, where President Oaks was talking about LGBTQ issues, specifically transgender issues. Now I. We have our wonderful. Our new youngest child, who's now. We now get to keep them forever. Our youngest child is. Is just wonderful. And they are non binary, transgender, asexual, and have been through incredible childhood trauma. And my kids would be baptized in a heartbeat because they quite like the church community. They quite like some of the positive experiences they've had around it. That's despite me being in this space. I. I mean, that this is how scary of. Of an ex Mormon, nuanced Mormon, post Mormon Space.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:50:13] This is my kid's like, let's do that. The day that conference was broadcast, I had to tell my husband in tears. My husband's a non member, has never been a member. Church isn't safe for my child anymore. I can't take my child with me to church. And just a matter of a few weeks ago in our ward, the, this conference was being rebroadcast right after church.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:50:43] Now my kids should be part of that safeguarding discussion. What we should be ideally seeing is, okay, this is the type of messaging that's coming out. Who could potentially be affected by this? What support do we need to put in place to make sure that they are not going to be harmed just by being here?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:51:06] And so of course it's going to bring up bigger issues. Maybe that broadcast doesn't happen at all in that context. Wouldn't that be wonderful? But yeah, I am very aware that church is not safe for all sorts of demographics of people. And so this work is current, it's important. And there are still people listening right now who have not yet come forward because they are so worried about how our community is going to handle it.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:51:32] Just one final thing. We also have managed to work with police agencies who any victims who are coming forward now and who want to reach out through 21st century saints. We can now put you in touch with organizations who will help you if you decide to make those reports to the police so that when you do, the police know how to handle it. As a unique type of case, as a historic abuse case.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:52:03] PD had reported to the police as part of this work. And he's a pretty traumatic experience. And thanks to him coming forward as part of this, we've managed to tighten up a system that we can put in place to make sure that he is fully supported. So just please know that we recognize what it takes for you to feel safe. So yeah, right after that, the announcement,

Nemo [00:52:28] the changes we got.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:52:30] Let's do it.

Nemo [00:52:31] Let's do it. Okay, so John, here we are. We've been badgering, bothering and generally upsetting people, but at the same time remaining just adorable enough to stay in the game. And then we hear some very exciting news that some changes are actually coming. And we couldn't believe it. Jane, please tell us about the change.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:52:53] Oh yeah, so we've got Internet footage. It's all over tech talk and on reels. The moment we got to tell the Brit vengers if you want to go check it out. So we were initially told for quite some time that the committee was looking at piloting a program and that that would probably happen in London. So we were told by our many sources there will be no pilot. This is going to happen across the United Kingdom, which we welcome and celebrate.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:53:23] Piloting a program shows that you're not serious about it, you're just testing the waters. So this is the more serious approach. So across the UK, safeguarding measures are going to be introduced from 1st of July. Members of the Church who are working with children and youth will be required to do DBS checks, which are the equivalent of background checks. In addition, each stake is going to have a stake Safeguarding specialist. Those specialists should be in place by the end of August. Those stake safeguarding specialists should have some kind of expertise in their area. They're going to be externally training.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:54:12] LDS Family Services will receive external training, who will then disperse that training to our state. Safeguarding specialists, who will then be training wards, councils, members, they will take that forward. From there, these measures will be fully implemented by the end of the year.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:54:35] And I guess just to, just to maybe the little final flourish of this announcement, our very own Sara has been called and sustained as Stake Safeguarding Specialist, the first in the uk, and has already started work within that calling. So we welcome it, we are absolutely delighted.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:55:01] And what we want to do is just to take this moment to just acknowledge, if it hadn't have been for the voices of victims, if it hadn't have been for people with expertise, if it hadn't have been for faithful Mormons, if it hadn't have been for leadership, if it hadn't have been for ex Mormons, if it hadn't been for nuanced Mormons, if it hadn't have been for never Mormons, everyone came from forward in this space for the first time in history, everyone at these different levels of activity, we've only had one person give us a hard time about our work, one person.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:55:43] It's unheard of. And we've managed to balance those conversations because every single voice in this space has been important. So while it might have been, you know, something that the Church reacted to about the people that we have stood within this space, we want to shout out and thank everyone who has signed our open letter, all of these people who have continually pushed, who have been the angry voices, who have been the, the nuanced voices who have done this work, our Brett Vengers friends have been, have been part of lifting us up and making sure that we can, we can get the job done. This is a first.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [00:56:23] I also really want to focus on how this can be replicated in other areas. People have asked from the beginning, how can we, how can we do 21st century stuff over here? Yeah. Can we put a pen in that, please?

Nemo [00:56:36] Yeah, yeah, because I just, I just want to mention the fact that the church were supposed to let bishops and state presidents everyone know and they didn't. So the reason you're hearing this from the first time from us is because we gave them a chance to announce it and they didn't.

Nemo [00:56:55] And so you don't want them to go getting cold feet and undoing all the good work they've done. So now that you lovely people all know about it, the church is far less likely to try and back out of this behavior. And they have. We will, we will pull up the. If you pull up the slide deck, John, we can show that things have already started to change. So the church system on LDS tools and kind of the back. The MLS system, particularly the member leadership. I don't know what MLS stands for. Member leadership, something services maybe.

Nemo [00:57:28] But anyway, you now have a section that is government certifications expiring soon, which is a brand new section. It'd be interesting if anyone from California where they have this, or anyone from Australia where they have these systems in place already recognizes this. So let us know in the chat if you do. John, could we have the next slide, please?

Breaking Down the New Safeguarding Measures

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Next slide, yeah.

Nemo [00:57:47] So we can see. Now please refer to local government rules to know what documents, if any, are required for those that work with youth. Certificates are added and stored on each individual member profile. Now that's what makes me think this has been stolen from the, from the California system. Say it's just been added in or from Australia because there it is, government rules. And so they'll be looking to local government to determine what background checks or what levels of clearance they need. Whereas here it isn't actually dictated by government rules or local government rules. It's the church is deciding to do this without needing to be legally pushed to do so.

Nemo [00:58:26] And we just get. The final slide just shows that you can upload a certification, name, number and expiration date and you can drop the form in. So it allows an external form to be added to someone's membership profile, which I think is really important. Thanks for putting up on screen, John.

John Dehlin [00:58:45] Do you all mind if I just summarize and make sure I understand what I was just.

Nemo [00:58:49] It would be good because we lived, Me and Jane lived through all this. So it'd be really good to check that you have followed.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Okay, so let me see if I Get this straight. So the Church was not protecting children, its LDS membership and its children specifically in youth, adequately. Both progressive and post Mormon Internet activists, combining with faithful members and local Mormon church leadership, agitated and worked cooperatively with church leaders throughout the UK to reach the decision to implement background checks across the entire country so that there could be extra levels of safeguards for any, any, anyone called to a leadership position who was going to work with children or youth.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] And then those changes, those decisions were made, the changes were implemented, and even the Church's software system has been updated to accommodate these pending and future changes. And one of those progressive Internet Mormon activists was even called to be one of the participants in this new program. And the only thing that hasn't yet happened, but is soon to happen, is that it's going to be actually announced. But did I, is that, did I summarize what has happened here? Is that right?

Nemo [01:00:36] Yeah, pretty much.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] Did I miss it? Do you want to add or correct the, the summary?

Nemo [01:00:42] No, I think, I think that pretty much sums it.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] No.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:00:46] Yeah. I would just provide the context that no organization has completely wonderful safeguarding measures. So while the Church would disagree that the Church totally felt that their safeguarding was robust, we disagreed. We could point to, if you have a look at our website, all of the holes and the problem areas, we lay them all out. There are also good things that were happening. But unfortunately, the Church were relying so much on the policies, you know, around discernment, around membership record annotations, that it creates this illusion that we are all safe at church now. What I need to not happen. And I love that the comments are sort of already, yeah, we need to, we need to dig into what this is going to look like.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:01:39] Because the worst thing, the most dangerous thing for safeguarding at this moment is for members and leaders to think, oh, that's it, now we're doing safeguarding. So it's all good. So we need to make sure that, you know, we're already having conversations to see, okay, what are those DBS checks going to look like? Who's overseeing them? How are the decisions being made around them? Because bishops who are already serving, who have had convictions for abuse, they pass those checks. Those leaders already know. So if something flags up on the system and who is going to oversee that? So we want to have questions like that.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:02:14] We want to see DBS, where it currently would apply to children and youth, we want to see that apply to all vulnerable groups because there are so many of them. When you are ministering, when you're going to See, vulnerable families, all of these things need to be considered. It's not necessarily just about our church experience.

Nemo [01:02:34] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] Well, and I just. Maybe just two quick things if it's okay. The first is that. Absolutely. That's a fantastic point, Jane, that this is just kind of the beginning. But I, you know, I do like to do what we can to celebrate baby steps. And I'm just saying that's. I tried to say before the history of activism, in my experience in the United States, like, I have to just celebrate structurally what has already happened, because even though maybe not one child is more safe today in the UK than they were a month ago, the fact that that Internet more progressive and post Mormon Internet activism, combined with actual faithful membership and countrywide leadership collaborated on making a structural change that has been implemented in such a relatively short period of time, that is historic, even if not one child is better protected.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] Because until we can have that, you know, it'd be great if we could all just rely on direct prophetic revelation where God just tells our church leaders from top down what changes need to be made. Obviously, if we wait for that, there will never be any progress. So the fact that, the fact that these different disparate groups were able to work together to even make the small change that has happened, it is a historic act, even if not one child ends up being protected. Because unless this happens, unless this type of construction, collaborative, patient groundwork happens, there will never be positive change in the church. So I just want to. I just want to call that out.

Nemo [01:04:34] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] And say congratulations to everyone who helped make this possible. As someone who's sitting over here on the other side of the pond, this is unbelievable. I'm just stunned. Like, my mouth is metaphorically open. You know, it.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:04:52] Is that. That important? And, you know, one of the things even, even amongst the Brett Vengers, you know, we're having these conversations because, you know, DBS checks were almost a bit of a given, that they would have to have a really good reason to not do them at this point.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:05:08] So I, I wasn't as worried about that, but because I, I knew at some point, I feel like, you know, this is. This is going to be. We need to focus on what it's going to look like as part of first steps. And the fact that the church is taking those first steps without. And I guess this is the part I would add to your summary without a law compelling them to do that, because we hear people talk about Australia, the Republic of Ireland, California. Those things all happen because the church had To. So the church did not have to do this. The church is, you know, has listened, it has lessened.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:05:48] That has been the work of activism both from within and without the church. And, and that's what we needed, this uniformity of purpose if we want to even bring the Book of Mormon into, you know, when people are speaking with one voice, saying, this is what we need now, if any members are concerned about where this fits with discernment, absolutely. These are things that you should be wrestling with.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:06:14] If a church leader is relying on discernment, enjoy, knock yourself out. But that can't come at the expense of where that balance has to be with keeping children safe. So we now have these, these more stringent policies that are going to help you do that.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:06:32] This is good. Safeguarding means that we are continually looking at what happens next. And training for safeguarding specialists is going to mean that there is this process of communication. So as safeguarding specialists, I mean, we've called Sarah. You're going to hear from Sarah. They are going to hear this training sucked. Or, yeah, well, here's where we could improve it. Or this was exceptionally good training. Can we talk about this on our podcast? We want to talk and celebrate the good things that happen as well as the things that we want to see change.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:07:08] If safeguarding specialists are receiving these callings, they do have to be empowered to push back. Because what we're going to see is, especially if women are being called into these positions, we cannot have safeguarding specialists who are being told, thank you for bringing that to attention. We appreciate your advice. Now we've got it from here. Sister. That is not what a safeguarding specialist should be doing. They should be keeping the Church honest. They should be, you know, aware that these complaints and situations and, and real scenario, you know, lived experiences are relating to very close relationships. It's the bishop's best friend. It's the people they play golf with.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:07:51] It's. It's the father, it's the mother. So there's going to have to be real external training. And thankfully for me, this is. Is. This is maybe a part of being able to move away from the best person in the world. For me to disclose to would be my bishop, because he's not trained, he can see terribly awful things that are going to, you know, re. Traumatize or potentially even cause more harm than the original event. What would be wonderful is if we have safeguarding specialists who know how to get the right help at the right time. Everything is recorded and there are no barriers to what that will look like.

Nemo [01:08:29] And that could be an end to keeping things in house. Right? That could be these safeguards. The way that we stop this perpetuation of abuse within religious institutions of handle it in house. Don't let people know you've now got safeguarding specialists who, if their training is any good, would be like, right, well, you need to report it to this individual or that individual. It's gonna crack this open if it's done right. And so, John, I think this podcast, if people say, oh, John De Lin only says mean things about the church, send them to this podcast. Because this, as far as I'm concerned, is a celebration of some incredible progress, of some baby steps.

Reflections on Progressive and Post-Mormon Activism

John Dehlin [01:09:05] And can I add one more thing? I was going to say, please, like a critique of. I don't know if this is a critique, but an observation of sort of progressive and post Mormon activism is that it has predominantly been led by men. You know, whether it's, you know, me, Jeremy Runnels, Nemo rfm, Bill Real, Sam Young, a lot of men are leading progressive and post Mormon activism. And oftentimes it's been done from the outside.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] In other words, it's like, we're ex Mormons. We're. We're on the outside and we're, you know, sometimes I think we as men maybe have more of a tendency, more of a proclivity to stand outside and throw rocks at the church, metaphorically. And I, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to all of us as progressive and post Mormon men who've been trying to make a difference. I think there's a degree to which everybody contributes in important ways. But what I want to highlight is the fact that I love how this is an initiative that appears to have been led by women predominantly or almost exclusively, and that the women have been working from within.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] And I would like to see more of that instead of, you know, because we all know the backfire effect. We all know that when you attack someone, they get defensive, they recoil. And especially if you're attacking from the outside, because not only are you attacking and it creates defensiveness, but also you're an outsider and who wants to listen to an outsider, right?

John Dehlin [01:10:43] So I love it that women are modeling for us in progressive and post Mormonism really good examples of how to patiently from within side actually work in constructive ways to make positive change happens. And I just think we need more women and more women who are willing to work with from within. And we as men probably need to learn from these women how to more effectively work towards constructive change.

Nemo [01:11:20] I've learned so much from working with Jane. There's so much that she adds to the Britvengers group and to my ability to be effective in what I do. One of the reasons I didn't count myself as one of those men, John, who said I was a boy is one, because I'm much, much younger than everyone else. And, and two, you just called me old.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] Nemo just called me old.

Nemo [01:11:42] I did. He's old as dirt. So. But the reason I kind of discount myself from the group is because actually I've tried to refrain from being on the outside and throwing rocks. And some of this, some of, or a lot of what I did was, was based on the work of Jane and others in, well, I can stay and I can try and make a difference because Jane's doing it, because Sara's doing it. You know, it was informed by. And other women who I won't mention because they probably don't want me to, who are still active, believing members who said, don't leave, stay. You could. You could make a difference. I was like, okay, yeah, no, I think, I think I can. And so, yeah, I, I will join you there, John, in heaping praise on the women in this space and, and what they add.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:12:25] I love the way part of the team is Ruth, who, you know, Ruth is the queen of analogies too. I, I think how, how she describes it is, you know, that the 21st century saints are holding the door open, that if you are staying in the church and you're engaged, we want to make that safe. We want to make you feel that you're loved and that all of you, all of you is. Is welcome right now, that if you want to take up that offer, that terrible phrase that just, just the church keeps using, but if you really want to take. Come on to Christ seriously, that that passion isn't getting in the way of you doing that because they're being a dick.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:13:05] So we really wanted to make sure that people felt safe, but also that the door is open that if people are leaving and that this is not a healthy space for them, that we can bless their journey and that their voice is still critical and valuable.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:13:19] For, for me, Mormonism is about the people who made Mormonism, and we are shaping that as I, I am so excited about seeing the evolution of what's possible, which is why I'm in this space. It's also, I, you know, and I would also like to say, you know, speaking to that experience of working in this space as a woman yeah. We frequently do get spoken to by people within the church, like, you know, thank you, Sister, we'll take it from here.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:13:51] We have to, you know, I'm saying we don't adjust what we're saying. Sometimes we adjust literally the tone of our voice so that we sound a little bit more gentle. This. This Mormonism gets baked in and we, you know, all of these things that we've learned that have become part of how we've learned to show that we are safe to church leaders or they won't listen.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:14:15] What working in this space has allowed us to do is I have been hurt, I have been listened to. Even when I am completely wrong, none of my ideas get shut down. I feel like the. The group that I am supported by in the Brit Avengers helped me to be the highest version of myself. That even when I'm completely wrong and I'm pissing them off, they are just so respectful and do not shut us down. So suddenly I became someone who, like, I was able to find my voice because I don't have to communicate in the language of Mormonism. Constantly. I interrupt constantly now because I haven't learned how to not do that.

Nemo [01:15:01] And it's why I don't feel bad for talking over Jane right now like that. Because, you know.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:15:06] No, because I'll interrupt you straight back.

Nemo [01:15:08] Exactly.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:15:09] I will keep doing it. Do you want to get your milk, little boy?

Nemo [01:15:12] Ah, there we go. See? Jane puts me in my place every time. So, John, what do you think? I have some questions for you or maybe ask you to pose some questions to Jane about what you think could be done moving forward. How do you think we move this to the rest of the world?

Will Background Checks Spread Beyond the UK

John Dehlin [01:15:29] Yeah, yeah. I mean, we talked about this before the show, but that's the big question is if it's good enough for the entire uk, when is this going to be implemented? Not just throughout the entire United States, but Canada, Latin America, you know, the entire world. Certainly we have the computer systems and the capacity to do it here. This is ground central for the Mormon Church, for better, for worse. And the church has a quarter of a trillion dollars in value that it could easily use to just make. Make background checks ubiquitous throughout the church worldwide. So I'm just dying to know whether.

Nemo [01:16:10] Yeah, sorry, yeah. One of the things I think, and maybe we haven't stressed it enough, is that background checks are just so synonymous here. They're so normal. No one's really worried about them. We do them for everything else. In fact, you know, if you were seeing a doctor or a teacher or, or anyone who wasn't background checked, you'd be worried, you'd be a bit concerned. You just, you almost assume that they have them. And I actually want to ask you what it's like in the States. How, how common is background checking people and, and is it a cultural thing? Is it like I kind of

Nemo [01:16:40] alluded to earlier, made a bit of a joke about, is it that there is genuinely a contingent of members of the Mormon Church who would see that as some sort of government overreach or some sort of overreach of power into their privacy? Just want to get your thoughts on that.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] Yeah, well, you're, you know, you'll probably get as many opinions as there are people. But what I can say is in traditional Protestant churches, as I understand it, so Unitarian Universalists, Episcopalians, you know, Presbyterians, Lutherans, here in the United States, it would just be understood that you do background checks on people working with kids and youth, as I understand it. So in traditional Protestant Christianity, it's just the norm when you get to other high demand religions, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, evangelical Christians, and I'm not sure about Catholics, that's when, that's when all of a sudden you just wonder, well, you don't, as I understand it, you don't see ubiquity and you wonder why, why is it that the high demand religions are less likely to implement background checks or standardize on them.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] Now the exception to that, weirdly, was with the Boy Scouts of America because as I understand it, historically the Boy Scouts of America at some point had so much abuse, had so many problems that they made background checks required for anyone, you know, leading Boy Scout troops.

John Dehlin [01:18:10] So on the one hand, that, that was my only really exposure as I understand it, as I remember, as I recall, that was my only exposure to background checks. Growing up as a Mormon or as a Mormon adult, it was, oh, if you want to work at the Boy Scouts, well then you have to have a background check, but certainly never with the church itself. And so in the church itself, within the Mormon Church here in the United States, you would just never, it would never be discussed, it would never come up. It would have never happened unless you were working with the Boy Scouts.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] And of course, after, you know, the past several years, the Mormon Church distanced itself from the Boy Scouts. And I don't even think background checks in the end saved the Boy Scouts. Maybe that was because there was just too many past decades of systemic abuse.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] So, you know, clearly you can have two deep leadership and backgrounds checks and still have systemic abuse. So to Jane's point, in no way should we celebrate now and say children or youth are safe in the UK or anywhere, but certainly it's going to be better than if we don't have background checks. So anyway, I don't know if that answered your question, Nemo, but. But yeah, there's this right wing conservative element that's resurging where they, you know, not only would they probably be uncomfortable with background checks, they don't want vaccines, they don't want general health care, they just trust science altogether. So, Nemo, in the current past five or eight years, there is this resurgent political climate that distrusts any control or any intervention of any sort that's also very anti science as well as anti government.

John Dehlin [01:19:56] So we're in a really weird political and intellectual and social climate these days. And I don't know how the idea of background checks would or is going to be received by orthodox conservative Mormons in the United States. Yeah, you know, it's a, it's a real interesting time. Well, but I just can't, I can't think of what y' all are doing in the UK as anything other than hopeful or at least a mustard seed of hope for what we might be able to see here. If the leaders here have the courage to, to roll it out in the us, you know, back at home, so

Nemo [01:20:37] to speak, it could only ever really be seen as a good PR move externally. It's the internal challenge I think they'd have to worry about. And the only other thing I'd say. Oh, gone. Go on, Jane.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:20:47] Yeah, just because I think this is, this is part of the story though. It's part of why at no point do we get to celebrate, you know, ever to celebrate, to see safeguarding is done. There is always going to be predators know how to work the system. There's always going to be something more that can be done.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:21:06] So it's in that context, this is something that we celebrate because it is happening. This is happening, safeguarding is happening. Robust safeguarding, we are working for that. But the thing is, it has to be part of a broader discussion. So DBS checks are just part of what robust safeguarding look like. A small part, actually, because we are looking at this through the lens of UK ice, through US eyes. It's important to acknowledge in Mormonism, our polygamous past, that we have had really good reasons to be a bit anxious about government interference even today. Could someone who's had a polygamous background and perhaps has left that and is looking to serve in mainstream LDS Church.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:21:53] What would that look like? Are there any members of his family that could potentially be at risk or her family? What about, you know, we think about Russia, China, places where, you know, places where were the government to be aware of where you were going to and, and how you were teaching or where you were serving. You know, these things are not always straightforward because the government's going to look a bit different for everyone. So it has to sit with part of a broader context. And this is why we talk about safeguarding.

Nemo [01:22:26] And I think I just wanted to point to something that was pointed out to me recently in a discussion around this. And this individual is now going to be kind of eating their words a little bit because they were pushing hard and saying I don't see the point in background checks. What if people start refusing callings because they don't want background checks? Think about that for a moment. What if people refuse a calling because they don't want a background check? Could it possibly be that there's something that background check could uncover and maybe that's not someone you want working with your children.

Nemo [01:22:55] So even if they act as a deterrent. Brilliant. Even if they catch someone, they only catch one person. Excellent. But then the other half is these safeguarding officers and this safeguarding training and creating an environment where you've got people whose sole responsibility is to make sure that people know how to spot and recognize abuse. People know how to deal with people when they come forward reporting abuse and people who know how to make, make sure that it doesn't stay in house and go to Curtin McConkey or the church's law firm. But that people can direct rapport out so that there is this external oversight almost. I think that's, that's one of the

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:23:31] biggest people things you can, you can always report out. You do not have to go through your bishop. You, you do not have to do that. You can always contact the police and where you to need any support. You know, obviously we're, we're always here to advise. We've got a website. But ye don't ever feel like your life is controlled by a line of priesthood authority. Please. I also.

Nemo [01:23:55] Many people do. So many people do that. Having those safeguarding specialists will help those people. I guess what I'm getting at to then fill up then out. Sorry, carry on. Jane.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:24:07] Yeah, just, just to speak to your point. A conversation that, that Ruth was, was having with us just, just recently I think was, was just a beautiful one. While we have had forgiveness weaponized and chastity and modesty and all of these things weaponized for such a long time. And we're all aware of the chewed gum analogy. We, we know what, what women, what young girls were told that they would be the equivalent of chewed gum. No one's ever going to want you if you have done this thing, if you have crossed this line. And the reality is, you know, thank Ruth for, for, you know, what she brought to the discussion that we had.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:24:49] The reality is, yes, some people in this context are going to have to be the chewed gum. And it's the bishops, the leaders, the people. If you have ever abused a child, if you have hit your spouse, if you have any convictions around this area, it is perhaps going to be painful for your church community for you. But these things should disqualify you from ever serving in a role ever where you have the ability to influence or be in contact with someone who's in a vulnerable group. In these situations, the bishops are the true gum. And it's just what has to happen. People have to be risk assessed.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:25:35] Every person and every calling risk has to be looked at and managed. And that's the thing that we're not really good at doing in church because, you know, the, the people who run the safeguards and helpline here, the bishops, estate presidents, we all have such close linked relationships that, you know, it's, we know the situation, we know that this person's, you know, deep down a really good guy. It doesn't matter if a conviction has happened, then the disqualification really should be something that follows.

Nemo [01:26:10] Yeah, so I think that's where we're at. That's where we're up to.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] John, just what, really quickly, I bet just a couple quick things. One is if I'm the church, I'm. There's a reason why I've probably held off on this for so long and why I have a history of protecting abusers at the expense of victims. And it's, it's just, I think it's, I think unfortunately it's because of what, whether it's our polygamous and secretive heritage or the patriarchy, whatever it is.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] I think, I think abuse is so prevalent historically in the Mormon Church that if they start doing background checks on leaders, there's going to be a shocking percentage of members in every single ward who are immediately disqualified from, from a huge chunk of callings. Plus, how can word not get out in ward council?

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Let's, let's have so and so. Oh, we can't have him why not? Well, we can't say. Like this is obviously going to be a massive headache once, you know, once this starts getting rolled out, especially in the United States, number one. And then number two, the church is already hemorrhaging members worldwide and especially in the United States. And so we've already got a massively dwindling membership pool from which to draw callings for members. But now we're going to shrink it even more by excluding all the people who have records of, of abuse. So I can, I can see why the church has been hesitant to implement this and why they're probably afraid and pulling their hair out at the prospects of implementing this stuff worldwide.

Nemo [01:28:05] You can, you can tick tock me on this, John. I'm gonna put myself full screen. If the church can't run without sexual offenders, then it shouldn't run at all.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] Yeah, no, that's, yeah, it's fair, but it's good. It's gonna be.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:28:20] What if they have to start calling women? Oh no.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] Or is elders from presidents or. Yeah, shutters. State presidents, State high councilmen. Right. State people.

Nemo [01:28:35] It's the reason they're closing here in the UK because they can't run them. People have got three or four state callings.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:28:40] You know, Sarah over there in the comments has more authority in her little finger than lots of these. I, I don't, I'm just, just calling out for a calling again because I just wanted to re. Emphasize it. She is called and has authority.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] That's awesome.

Nemo [01:28:59] John, what was your second point? I love it.

John Dehlin [01:29:00] I just, I just also want to, I mean I do want to just give a shout out to the Brit vengers and of course 21st century saints. You all, all of you have been so instrumental in this and in other words, really laudable efforts and I just want to always give a shout out to all the members of the Britvengers because what you are doing collectively is just so special and it's so inspiring even to us old, old goats who have been doing this for, for 20 years. We're super inspired by, by all of the members of the Brit Vengers and what you have done. It's special and it's inspiring and I just, I just never can never get enough of the good work you're all doing.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:29:46] So thank you, thank you so much. We had, we'd really counted down to the date when this announcement was, you know, was going to be happening and we had spoken with a couple of victims that we have been supporting and it was because obviously the other Thing is this announcement can cause a lot of pain and a lot of trauma because it's too little too late for so many people.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:30:14] And we are working in this space, you know, maintaining confidentiality, hearing the most painful experiences. We don't want people to think that, you know, of this is okay now that the church is doing safeguarding. So we want to make it really clear that this is the start of a process and that our, our job is to amplify victims voices. And when we shared this announcement with them, they were the first to say, and we've heard it so many times since then.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:30:48] You won't take your foot off the gas now, will you? And we won't. We won't. We are going to keep working in this space. We're gonna, we're gonna keep pushing for the best possible environment to raise people who want to be in the church.

Nemo [01:31:04] Cool. Thank you very much, Jane.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Well, bless you both. Bless 21st century saints. Shout out to Sarah, you, Jane and everyone else who's helped behind the scenes in the church, out of the church. Just a shout out to everyone that's done this important work, groundbreaking work. Yeah. Thank you.

Nemo [01:31:20] And if you, if you want to come and say hello in person to, to Jane, you're going to be there, right? Or you're not going to be there this weekend?

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:31:28] I, it's possible. I don't want to guarantee. Yeah, okay.

Nemo [01:31:32] Well we won't guarantee it on the Internet because once you say stuff on the Internet it sticks. Jane may or may not be at Thrive in Birmingham this weekend. I will be there. And other Britvengers are likely to be there, but just generally lots of people who are dealing with their Mormon stuff, their Mormon baggage, who are trying to work out how to live their life after Mormonism are going to be there. You have some great workshops. There's going to be karaoke. As always, it's going to be a great time. I'll try not to end up in hospital as karaoke with John de Lin. John de Lin. Party's too hard is what to do.

Jane (21st Century Saints) [01:32:08] He's only little. Just please people take it easy on him.

Nemo [01:32:13] But it would be good. So Thrive Birmingham is this Saturday. Tickets are at thrivebeyondreligion.org I believe it is thrivebeyondreligion.com There is, there's tickets there. So thank you very much. I'm getting to do the outro, which is nice. Unless John, you want to do it.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] Well, I just want to make sure. Check out 21st Century Saints). Subscribe to 21st Century Century Saints) on YouTube. Donate to them. If you can subscribe to Nemo the Mormon, donate there. Check out Priesthood Dispatches. Check out Mormon Civil War. Check out all the good work being done by the Britvengers. And what am I forgetting Nemo?

Celebrating Progress and Looking Ahead

Nemo [01:32:53] I don't know. But this weekend is going to be a party in celebration of these baby steps the church is taking. Amongst other things. Subscribe to Mormon Stories I think.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Oh yeah, there's.

Nemo [01:33:05] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] And nuance. And nuance. Ho while you're at it.

Nemo [01:33:07] Oh right. And nuance.

John Dehlin [01:33:08] Her car Burrell's getting Mormonism live and

Nemo [01:33:10] all the things self and just every, just, just be part of the big family and know that this is a good day for the church and they can change and they can do it without having to be compelled legally. So let's just keep making them do stuff like that and it will be a better place for children and grandchildren who for whatever reason can't leave or don't want to leave.

John Dehlin [01:33:34] And let's keep working for non polarizing constructive change.

Nemo [01:33:39] Yeah, well put. Right, who wants.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] Great job everybody. All right, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You guys are awesome and keep up the good work. We hope to have you back soon. Yeah, thanks you guys. Take care. Bye everybody.

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