Introduction and Guest Background

Sean Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Sean Dehlin. It is December 13, 2024, and today we are going to be doing a military Mormon story. We've tried to fill different profiles or life experiences on the Mormon Stories podcast, and for a long, long time, it's been requested of me that we cover kind of the military experience within a Mormon context. And so we found at least a couple people over the next month or two to interview. And the first person that we're going to have tell their military Mormon story is Ross Martin, otherwise known as Marty Martin. Hey, Marty, how's it going?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:00:49] It's going good. Thank you for having me.

Sean Dehlin [00:00:52] Thanks for joining us really quickly. What branch of the military did you serve in?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:00:58] I was in the army.

Sean Dehlin [00:00:59] Okay. As a Ranger, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:01:01] Yeah, I started out as a Ranger. Down first bat. Savannah, Georgia.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:07] And what's a Ranger?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:01:09] A Ranger is part of the special operations community. We're more of a strike force. So, you know, when the president wants something destroyed overnight, he's gonna send the rangers in there, so.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:22] And that's what you did?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:01:23] Yeah, that's what I did for part of my military history, yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:25] Okay. But you also have a Mormon story.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:01:29] I do.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:29] All right, well, we're super grateful. And you're here from what state?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:01:34] North Carolina. Yeah, just outside of Fayetteville.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:38] Okay, well, we're really, really honored to have you. So thank you for coming and thank you for your service.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:01:44] Thank you.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:45] And if that weren't enough, if Marty weren't enough, we have Margi to join. Marty. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:52] Hi there. Hello.

Sean Dehlin [00:01:54] I'll try not to call you Marty today, Marty. All right. Anyway, welcome to the podcast.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:04] Yes, I'm happy to be here.

Sean Dehlin [00:02:06] All right. Okay. Well, before we begin, Marty, we always like to give people a chance to kind of start with their intention of why they want to tell their Mormon story. As I understand it, you still attend church, is that correct? I do, yeah. So why do you want to tell your Mormon story?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:02:30] I want my family and my dear friends and my prosperity just to know my story. Why I. Did, you know, the certain things I do and military as far and as well as religious. And so I thought it'd be a great time to do it.

Sean Dehlin [00:02:48] Beautiful. Okay. All right. And this is going to be. This is.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:02:52] We've.

Sean Dehlin [00:02:52] We've reviewed the outline. There's some really, really valuable, important stuff here. So I. I'm. I'm super excited for this interview. So, Marty, where does your Mormon story begin?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:03:03] Well, the first Martin to ever touch US Soil was a man by the name of Moses Martin. He came over in 1848, he left Glasdale, landed in Liverpool and sailed across on the Prince Sailor and landed in New Orleans and took a steamboat up to Winter's Quarter. And him and his wife and three kids stayed there for a few years. And in 1851 they came and joined the Saints out in Salt Lake and. And eventually lived here and later was told to go to Idaho and they settled in Oakley, Idaho. So that's where the Martin started was Oakley, Idaho. We're from the McCammon Blackfoot all the way up to Oakley, Idaho area.

Sean Dehlin [00:03:52] Now immediately something that comes to mind is the Willie and Martin handcart company.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:03:58] No, I wish we were, but no, we had nothing to do with that.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:01] So different Martin.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:02] Different Martin.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:03] Okay, got it. Okay, guy. But settled Idaho, Parts of Idaho.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:08] Yeah. Tuilla, Utah.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:10] Uhhuh.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:11] And cuz it was, it was all Scots that settled Tooele.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:14] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:14] And then when they ran out of land and water, they said, hey, five of you families have to go. And they did a, you know, kind of a pulled a. The short stick and Moses Martin grabbed the short stick and him and couple of his brothers, they had to go up to Oakley, Idaho and.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:31] And where's Oakley?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:32] That's a good question. You don't know? No, I was born in Blackfoot. Okay, and where's Blackfoot? Blackfoot is south of Rigby, Idaho. It's in the southeast corner.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:41] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:42] That's the Pocatello and Idaho Falls.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:44] Okay. All right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:45] So southeast Idaho, Yeah, that's where I was born, but I was raised in Wyoming.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:49] Wyoming. Okay. Okay. So your ancestors are multi generational Mormon, is that right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:04:55] On my, on my dad's side.

Sean Dehlin [00:04:56] Okay. Okay. Yeah. So where did your parents meet and get married and was it a temple marriage or not?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:05:03] Well, that's a good story because they eventually my dad moved to McCammon, Idaho. The Martin, they used to have the oldest barn still in existence in Idaho when I was in high school. So my dad was raised in McCammon with his five brothers and my mother, her grandparents lived in McCammon. So when she was a young child, probably 13, 14, she went to go visit her grandparents on Thanksgiving. And she was kind of a little hefty girl and she went walking through town. McCammons, not that big. And my dad and his brothers were kind of mischiefs and they used to smoke as kids and they're hiding out in the old theater smoking and my dad looks over the wall and Sees this girl walking by and was like, hey, the pastor's down there. Moo. Moo as a cow. Yeah. And my mom ran home and traumatized her. Well, five, six years later, they meet at a steak dance in Blackfoot, Idaho, and he's taken. They get married. It wasn't a temple marriage, but he's taking her to the family in McCammon. My mom said he, you know, the worst thing that's ever happened to me happened right there. My dad said, what happened? And my mom said, some kids up there used to call me or called me a cow and told me the pasture was down the road. And my dad started laughing, and my mom said, bill, was that you? And it turned out it was. So I always tell my kids, you never know who you're going to marry, so be nice to everybody.

Sean Dehlin [00:06:40] You never know.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:06:42] And later on when we get in the story, it happened to me and my wife, too, but we'll get there later on.

Sean Dehlin [00:06:47] Okay? Okay. Okay. So they got married in Idaho. Yep. But not in the temple.

Family Origins and Early Church Life

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:06:56] No. So my uncle and my. So my dad's brother and my mom's sister were dating at the same time, and my parents got married first. They. My aunt and uncle got married in Nairo Falls Temple. So I have double cousins.

Sean Dehlin [00:07:14] Okay, nice.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:07:16] So I always tell the story, and people are like, yeah, you're from Utah. I know, that makes sense. But no, they. You know, both my parents are. They believed in the church, but they smoked. My dad drank. My dad was a Vietnam vet and struggled with a lot of. A lot of things that he experienced, but all their lives, they believed. And so that's. That's our story.

Sean Dehlin [00:07:42] Wow. What was his profession?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:07:44] He was in the army. He was what's called a lerp, a Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol. So the Rangers of Vietnam did a couple tours in Vietnam, was wounded three times, and on the third. Third one, they let him come back to the States. And it's actually an interesting story with that. He. He came back and went a little AWOL and went to Blackfoot, Idaho. And my grandma knew someone knew a general authority. His name is slipping me now, but it was a guy that everyone loved that later on was telling stories. He was a baseball player.

Sean Dehlin [00:08:22] Paul Dunn.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:08:23] Paul Dunn, yeah. And the authorities came to my grandma's house looking for my dad, and my dad ran out the back door. And later on when he came home, my grandma promised him, said, hey, if you. If you turn yourself in, I promise you everything will work out. And she called. I don't know how she Knew Paul H. Dunn, but she called Paul H. Dunn, and he made some phone calls and allowed my dad to come back in. He had to finish his time as a jailer at Fort Lewis, Washington. But one of the first stories that I remember growing up was my parents, after that, was starting to go to church, and they went to a steak meeting where Paul H. Stone was speaking, and they popped their head in, and it was, like, extremely crowded. But when he saw my mom and dad, he kind of did the whole come up here and have him sit up front. So my mom, you know, she said, you know, he got in a little trouble later on, but he was always my favorite, and it was for that reason right there. So my dad was able to retire after, like, 15, 16 years with honors from the military. Yep. And a lot of that was due to polished on.

Sean Dehlin [00:09:33] Nice. I've heard good things about polish done from, like, a personal perspective from many people.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:09:39] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:09:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:41] Okay.

Sean Dehlin [00:09:41] So did your parents end up getting sealed in the temple or never?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:09:44] No, they ended up getting divorced when I was in fourth grade. My dad remarried his fifth wife.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:50] Oh.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:09:51] So he was married five times.

Sean Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:09:53] And about four or five years ago, he got sealed in the temple, went and did this endowment, and he passed away last year.

Sean Dehlin [00:10:02] Okay, okay. So you grew up kind of with a.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:10:07] With divorced parents, Basically, I did after fourth grade, yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:10:11] Okay. So what was your Mormon experience like as a. As a Mormon kid?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:10:15] So, again, is this Blackfoot or Blackfoot, Idaho? I went to Blackfoot all the way up to first grade. And, you know, as far as I can remember, like, religion was part of my family. Even though my parents didn't go to church, all my cousins went, my grandparents went. One of my earliest memories was in first grade. We lived at a place called Lawrence Lane in Idaho. And at the time, my dad was out of a job. My mom was a dispatcher for the sheriff's office. And there was Christmas Eve, and we had, like, seven acres that we were renting. It was like a plum farm. Someone knocked on the door, and they opened it up. My mom was cooking in the kitchen, and it turned out to be members of the church bringing presents for the whole family. And I just remember my mom crying in the kitchen, and I didn't know what was going on. And the next day, I had a train set and little army guys, plastic army guys. So that's one of my first memories of the church. And then that was the same year I got baptized. I was baptized at 8, and I was, you know, not knowing much back then. Just, it was just normal life. But we never went to church. I might have went to church one or two times prior to leaving Idaho. In second grade we moved to Green River, Wyoming, which I consider my hometown, and never went to church. But I remember in third grade coming downstairs to the house we were renting and just telling my dad, I want to go to church. I don't know why, I don't know where it came from. So for like weeks after that, he would take me to church, drop me off, and then come back and pick me up at the Stake Center. The Stake center where I went wasn't even in our area. We had a church down the road. But you know, apparently my dad didn't think about that and took me to the Steak Center. So I was going to the Steak center as a third grader by myself for multiple years. And then my parents split and my, my mom moved into a trailer park in Green River, Wyoming. And I stopped going for, you know, maybe six, seven months. And I remember my fifth grade year, a new kid moved into town. His name was Jason Morgan. And we went to the movies that night. We went to go watch the Land Before Time. I remember that when it first came out, Kevin Date and myself. And so while we were at the movies, I asked him to come over. This was a Saturday night, I asked him to come over on Sunday. He said, I can't play on Sunday, I'm Mormon. I said, hey, I'm Mormon too. And so I went to church with his family the next day. And I didn't have any church clothes. But that week somebody dropped off a blue suit at our house. They didn't say who it was, they just knocked on the door, had a button fly collar. And I wore that blue suit until it didn't fit me anymore. And I'd ride to the church with the Morgans for years.

Sean Dehlin [00:13:20] Yeah, so I would say, well, I've been reading a little bit about religion and specifically a book by Yuval Noah Harari called Nexus. It's like one of his follow up books to Sapiens. And he's pretty secular, but he just says religion does a good job of providing structure. And it sounds like for you there was some chaos, maybe some chaos or disorder in your life and religion just filled a structural need for you that was actually quite valuable.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:13:55] John I was a feral child. My mom worked for the sheriff's office dispatcher, so she worked at nights. And we lived in this trailer park on the Green river. And I would go play army all day long, wouldn't Even tell my mom where I was going. And then later in life, when I was in middle school, high school, we'll get there. But I could leave the house at midnight, come back at three in the morning on the school night. And, you know, my mom didn't care. You know, she cared, but she was just so busy trying to keep us afloat, you know, So I had a feral life. So the church in my life was a huge structure that I needed.

Sean Dehlin [00:14:35] I had the same situation. I never had a curfew, could do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. And the church provided me structure. Same thing.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:14:43] Yeah. And not to go back, but one of the first memories I have is when we were living in Idaho. Do you guys remember those? Those Book of Mormon? They're like cartoon books. They're really big. There's like, 24 series.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:57] Yeah, that's right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:14:58] Well, my mom was sitting with my brother and I at the dinner table, first grade. And one night she pulled a book out, and we're going over them. And I've always loved art, so I was just thrilled by the paintings in there, just the detail, you know. And we read some of those stories, and at the back of everyone, there was Moroni's Promise. And I remember her reading that to us. And I remember saying, mom, what's a prayer? And. And then she taught us a prayer at the table. And at that same conversation, she said something like, God knows all your thoughts and even what you're thinking, and not saying it really scared me. I was like, oh, he knows what I'm thinking. But we said a prayer that night, and that was probably 1984. And from then on, for the longest time, I would say a prayer. I was just very prayerful because of my mom. Even in the times of my life where I wasn't doing the right thing, I would still pray because my mom taught me that. So that connection to God was for my mom at an early age. And then a year later, when we were living in Lawrence Lane, my dad had a bus. He's always had buses for some reason, but in this bus, he had a lot of, like, military stuff and guns and food storage. My dad was a prepper long before it was popular.

Sean Dehlin [00:16:14] It was cool to be a prepper. Your dad was a prepper?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:16:16] Yeah. And so I had a key, like a padlock, to get on there, and I had a key to it to get in there, because this is my fort. Well, one night it snowed real bad, and my dad had to get in there. And I remember I had hit the key for my sister because I didn't want her to get in there. I have two older sisters, two younger brothers, and, you know, it was my fort. And, well, my dad couldn't find the key. And my dad was. You know, he was a tough man. Very. You know, he was a normal dad in the 80s. He comes downstairs and he's like, ross, where's that key for the bus? And I remember thinking, I think he was on the hood, dad. And he goes, well, it snowed afoot last night. You better go find it now. And I remember going out there and I'm on the bus. You know, my dad could. You know, he was physical at times. And I remember looking all over on the bus, like, moving the snow around. I couldn't find this key. And I. I remember my mom talked about prayer. And on that bus, on my knees, being in first grade, I asked God to help me find this key because I was scared. And just like that, I looked down, I just did this number and found the key. And I was like, wow, it worked. It really worked. So I've always had a connection, you know, because of that experience as a child. And so. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:40] And you were really scared.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:17:42] Yeah, I was scared. Yeah, I was scared.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:44] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:17:45] Yeah. Beautiful. Okay, so as you're. As you kind of progressed from childhood into adolescence, your teen years, what role did the church play in your life then?

Spiritual Experiences and Growing Up Mormon

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:18:00] Well, at the time. So I've had a few spiritual experiences. Shortly after I was baptized, I was behind the house in Saint on Lawrence Lane, and there was a huge wasp nest, Right. And being a kid, I was like, hey, I'm gonna grab a rock and I'm gonna throw it at this. This nest. I'm like, literally saying, I have an idea. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:18:21] What could go wrong?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:18:22] Not the worst. Not the best idea Margi's ever had, but I picked up. It was a big stone, and I was about to huck it at the. At the nest, and I heard a voice said, don't do that. And I just remember thinking, where did that voice come from? It was really weird. So I didn't do it. Well, in high school, I was very active in the church. Well, in eighth grade, I started getting in trouble shortly after my parents got divorced. And I didn't understand where a lot of the anger came from. Later on, I did when I went through counseling in middle school, but I'd get in a lot of fights and got in a lot of fights in eighth grade and got put on probation and. And got in more fights and got in trouble. Again. And my mom said, you need to go live with your dad in Idaho because I can't handle you. So I moved up with my dad in Idaho. Best decision I made as a kid. And I needed that structure of a father in my life, a strong father. And my dad was. He's a cool guy. He was all about guns and hot rods. And, you know, at the time, I was all about basketball and, you know, music. And so I used to listen to a lot of rap at the time because it's, you know, 92, 93. Common thing. I remember one time I'm listening to. He had a nice speaker set, and I plugged in his headset so my dad wouldn't hear the music I was listening to. And I was listening to a rap album, and my dad came in and took the headphones off of me and put it on his head. And I just remember being so ashamed that I was here to let my dad down. And I remember him taking off those headphones, and he looked at me and said, you know, Ross, when you buy this music you're playing, you're paying tithing to the devil. And at the time, it hit me hard. And so they went. You know, him and my stepmom went out for coffee that night at stands in Blackfoot, Idaho. And when he did that, I went out in the backyard. I had probably a whole bag, like, a hundred rap albums, and.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:35] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:20:36] Put him in the fire that night and burnt them.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:38] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:20:39] You know, And I was kind of a troublemaker at the time. We got in a lot of fights, spelled from school many times. Just wasn't doing very well. I was praying, though, during this whole time. But that experience started changing my life. And when I went to Blackfoot, Idaho, went to high school there for one year my freshman year. And the way the school was set up was it had three semesters, so trimesters. And my stepmom kept asking me to do seminary, and I was like, nah, seminary is not for me. And I missed the first trimester. And she begged me, ross, please take seminary. And because of her, I took seminary. So the first day I go to seminary, my seminary teacher was Brother Rawson. And you might recognize him because later in life, he was a spokesman for. What's it called? The word Music and the spoken word.

Sean Dehlin [00:21:44] Music and the spoken word.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:21:45] Yep, that's him. That was my.

Sean Dehlin [00:21:46] So he replaced Lloyd Newell?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:21:48] Basically, yeah. And I think he just got replaced, but he did it for, like, 10, 15 years. Okay. You know, what's his name again? Brother Rawson. Ross. And he had the orange hair.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:58] I think it's Glenn.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:21:59] Was it Glenn Rossen?

Sean Dehlin [00:22:00] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:22:01] Yeah. And he was my seminary teacher. And his conversion story always stuck with me. But the. I remember walking into his classroom and. And I felt something different. Like I felt something that I could cut with a knife. And, you know, later I learned out. You know, I thought that was the spirit. And I remember being in seminary in my freshman year, and people would skip seminary, and I would think, how could you do something like that? This is because I needed it so bad in my life, you know? So at that time, I started changing my life around again. And. Yeah, so after that freshman year, I moved back with my mom as a changed young man, started going to church, had my own car at the time, and started dating a girl that was in the ward and liked her a lot, liked her family structure. But I never felt good enough to date her because I came from Otto park and. And my thought at the time was, you know, my mom smoked. She didn't go to church. She wanted to, but she was always embarrassed because she smoked. You know, every time fast offerings came around, she would pay it. She paid her tithing till the day she died.

Sean Dehlin [00:23:21] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:23:21] Wow. She never went to church.

Sean Dehlin [00:23:23] Dang.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:24] Because she was embarrassed because she smoked.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:23:27] You know, she'd go for a short stint. You know, the bishop would call her in, give her a calling, but she never felt comfortable. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:23:37] So that's interesting. If only all, quote, sins had ascent, you know what I mean?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:23:44] My mom, you know, once her. My dad divorced. She never dared other men, never went out drinking. Her children were her life. And she had a. She had a physical job. She went from being a dispatcher, which is very stressful, to be in animal control.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:00] Oh, yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:24:00] And she was one of the first animal control officers in Wyoming to carry a sidearm. In our county in Wyoming, Sweetwater county is one of the largest counties in the whole US it's like number five. So she had to patrol because she worked for the county. She had to patrol the whole county. And there was times she'd come home in the middle of a blizzard and get a phone call at 2 in the morning to go get this dog. And she would go. She wouldn't even complain. I mean, she was just all about, if it feeds my kids. And she never went after my dad for child support. Never.

Sean Dehlin [00:24:35] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:24:36] My dad never paid child support.

Sean Dehlin [00:24:37] Dang.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:38] Oh, wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:24:39] She was a very prideful woman. Her father managed the stockyards in Blackfoot, Idaho, was a cowboy through and through, to the day he died. And, yeah, so she had that in her blood and said, I'm going to do this on my own. And took care of all five of us kids. And when my sisters had kids out of wedlock, she took care of them in the same house.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:03] What I'm noticing about both of your parents is that they both, in some way, are survivalists. It sounds like your mom was living in a survival mindset, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:25:19] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:20] And your dad, too, having served in a war, I would imagine, even though you're back in America, you're back. That your brain now knows things, you know, and oftentimes. And so. And with you sharing, kind of the prepper. Right. Some of that survival psychology, I would imagine, stays. And that's a really interesting paradigm for a child to, I think, exist in.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:25:49] He left the war, but the war never left him.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:52] Yeah, right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:25:53] And to the day he died, he was proud to be a Ranger, but he never talked, he never told stories, Hardly ever. And to this day, I still have his journal that he kept in Vietnam. First time he killed a man. Killing men, you know, he would write about it. One of the experiences I remember with him when we lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, we lived in these apartments called Briarwood Apartments. And my older sister at the time was probably 12, and she was staying the night at a neighbor's house just two doors down. And when she came home the next morning, she had told my parents that the father had done some things to her. That was the first time I ever saw my dad have a look. Looked like. And he left, went next door and beat the guy to a living pulp. And I remember I walked outside and I could see him in the doorway. My dad was over the man, like, choking him. And the police came, and when they found out what happened, they arrested that man and let my dad go. But for like, a week after that, my dad never said a word. I just remember him sitting in the chair and just staring at the tv. And as a young, young kid, probably three years old, like, that never left me.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:14] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:27:15] So, wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:16] All the things he was holding inside,

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:27:18] he was at a drop of a dime. He would go from, like, the most normal, loving man to almost a psychopath. And he was known in Blackfoot, Idaho, as Crazy Bill. So, yeah, my freshman year in high school, he'd come pick us up in the bus. It said the freedom bus. Like, all of us kids on there, we'd go hunting in McCammon every year, so he'd come pick us up. And I was so embarrassed Me and my stepbrother be looking out the window like, oh, man, here comes the bus. Make a run for it.

Sean Dehlin [00:27:54] And that kind of fighter mode or military machine mode. Do you think he was born that way or do you think he was made into that by his military service?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:28:02] Definitely made into that.

Sean Dehlin [00:28:04] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:28:05] And my mom met him on his second deployment and just said he was a different man after the war. Yeah, he was a different man after he went awol. It kind of broke him for a little bit. And then when he came back and left the service, it never left him. He loved the military. Loved it. That's all he ever wanted to be. And, you know, that's, you know, motivated me a lot as a young kid. I'd play an army all the time. That was my favorite thing to do. Go out in the Green river and play an army in the weeds and then in the sagebrush around Wyoming. But, yeah, I don't think we've ever

Sean Dehlin [00:28:51] talked about this, but, Margi, your grandpa, well, your dad was a medical veteran, but your grandpa, I think, was a World War II veteran. And I think he was never the same when he came back.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] That's right. Battle of the Bulge. He participated in Battle of the Bulge and. Same thing, like, very much it. You come back a different person. The cost. The cost can be very, very high.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:29:17] Yeah. My great grandpa, my grandmother's dad, my dad would tell me a story about him coming back from World War I. When he came back from all that trench warfare at night, he would sleep at the edge of the bed of his parents for a whole year, just on the floor.

Sean Dehlin [00:29:35] Full grown man.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:29:36] Grown men just struggling with what he saw. So, you know, I've had uncles that served in Korea. My dad's older brother served in Korea. My grandpa on my mom's side served in the Navy on the ussr, Dead, which was a submarine destroyer of the Japanese. And then my dad served in Vietnam. So we. We have a whole military history. You know, Moses Martin served in the military, the Mormon militia out in Tooele, you know, so it's part of our family.

Sean Dehlin [00:30:08] My dad was a. Is a Coast Guard retired commanding officer, so he served in the reserves as a Coast Guard. So I've. And my stepdad, my mom's third husband was a retired Air Force colonel, so I've got military, too. So. Yeah. So what did you have interest in high school? Academic or athletic or work interests in high school?

High School Years and Love of the Outdoors

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:30:35] I was the worst academic kid in high school. Okay. All I wanted to do was be outside. I mean, I graduated high school but it was a miracle. Yeah, those are interest outdoor.

Sean Dehlin [00:30:46] That's good.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:30:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was into the outdoors. We'd go camping. I had a small group of friends. All of us were lds. You know, I say this tongue in cheek, but it was called the Warriors. And our favorite thing to do was we would go up to Ashley National Forest in Utah and try to survive for like three or four days. Oh, damn. And after the first day, we'd always drive into town and get a hamburger.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:10] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:31:10] Cause we were horrible.

Sean Dehlin [00:31:11] Where would you get a hamburger at work?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:31:13] Manila.

Sean Dehlin [00:31:14] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:31:14] So there's a hamburger store. And there we leave. Because, you know, we didn't know what we were doing. We thought it was cool, but our motto was no woman, no cry. And we just spent our time in the outdoors now. And even when I go home today, people are like, I remember you guys carrying a duck boat at midnight over the Green River Bridge because we used to go kayaking at night. And I mean, and to this day, we're very close, tight friends and. But yeah, it was. You know, my community growing up was mainly lds. Everything I knew was lds. My neighbors were lds. The guy that would take care of my mom, our home teacher, he was my neighbor. When the. When our pipes froze or the pilot light went out on our heater, he was over there and he's the one that took care of it. And they were like my fathers when my father left. So, yeah, you know, I had that structure. Boy Scouts, just everything. But in high school, I think I had a learning disability because I would read things and it didn't connect. I always tell my kids this story. I'm like, I went through seminary and my sophomore to senior year, you had to read 15 nights a minute in seminary, I would read every night and I would close the Scriptures and I couldn't tell you what I read.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:35] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:32:35] You know, I thought Alma was the same Alma all through the Book of Mormon. I'm like, this Nephite guy lives forever.

Sean Dehlin [00:32:41] Oh, the Nephi.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:42] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:32:43] You know, because cognitive wise, something didn't click. And so I had a hard time. I loved to read as a kid too. It's just nothing really clicked. You know, the first book I ever read was Bo Knows Boy Bo Jackson. That's probably the first book that really stuck to me. But after that, I had a hard time. Math was. I was horrible in math. My senior year I took pre algebra and probably should have felt it, but I think the teacher liked me. She's like, you know, I'm going to let Ross graduate. But yeah, I had the hardest time, you know. But I did have a cool couple cool experiences in high school. My I love sports. Yeah, I played, you know, football, I wrestled and then I also boxed for. We had a city league in the town next to us. So I'd box over there. But you know, one year I was really debating if I should get a job because I was thinking, you know, I might want a sort of mission one day. And being 16, 17, you kind of wanted a car, right? My mom couldn't afford an extra vehicle. So we had this mountain where we live right in the middle of our town called Man's Face Mountain. And in the summertime I'd go climb it all the time without ropes, just climb it. And one June morning I was up there and I'd been debating a lot if I should play football or if I should get a job. And I was walking around the hills and it was a beautiful morning. I remember standing on the top of manspace just overlooking the town and you know, it's gonna sound weird to say this, but like the wind blew and I literally heard that same voice say, get a job. But it almost was like, get a job, bum. You know, like it was calling me a bum.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:31] A little judgmental.

Sean Dehlin [00:34:32] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:34:32] I was like, okay, well, judgmental Holy Ghost. Yeah. So I walked down that day and went to subway and got a job that day. And my junior year I didn't play any sports. I just worked and saved money.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:45] Oh, interesting. Can I ask you about the nature piece for a minute? So you really, it seems like valued nature in your life, being outdoors. Can you explain a little bit to me? Was it because of the adventuring aspect that you did in nature or the challenge it gave you, like kind of climbing the mountain? Or was it all like in part what you felt you were able to, what you were able to feel in nature? Like how would you talk about your relationship with nature and what you loved about it?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:35:20] I think it started because one of the first movies my dad ever took me to was Rambo. Like a little 7 year old kid going to watch Rambo and Red Dawn. And so I loved like military life. So the military in nature just going out, playing army, I think it plays the same role. So I Talked about that 7 acres of plum tree orchard we had. I'd go out there, hide in the trees, play army all day long. So I just loved being outside. And a story that my uncle and aunt, the same one, the double cousins would always tell me was they came over one day And I left the house. I was like 8 and I'm like, ross, where are you going? And I just pointed to the mountains and I said, I'm going there. The mountains are like 50 miles away. But that's what I told them, you know, and they always tell that story because nature being outside has always been a part of my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:15] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:36:16] You know, and you know, to this day, not to jump forward, but we have 100 acre ranch. I can't be inside. I have to be in nature.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:24] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:36:24] You know, so as a kid, I found solace.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:27] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:36:28] I found protection there. You know, my home when my dad was there could be rough at, you know, I remember coming home, getting off the bus, my parents fighting, and I just think, you know, I'd go play an army and that's where I found my safety.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:44] That makes so much sense.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:36:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:46] Because I'm hearing too imaginary play, like you would create worlds where you were the conqueror, you were fighting.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:36:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:54] Out there. And you could say who wins? And you could say. And being able to leave a world that you had no control over, maybe enter a world that you could actually create for yourself, that makes sense to me. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:37:08] And I felt like out there I could be the protector.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:10] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:37:11] You know, when I was same Lawrence Lane house, we had neighbors and the neighbor boy next to us was, you know, four years older than us. And I remember me and my younger brother, I was, you know, I was first grade, so he was probably three or four. And we used to go over next door because we lived out in the country, you're friends with your neighbors. And I remember being over there one day and Dudley was a bully. He was just a bully, a little bit older than my sister. And I remember being there one day and before we left, I didn't mean to say his name. I'm sorry.

Sean Dehlin [00:37:54] Oh, that's good.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:37:56] But before he left, you know, he made the comment, like, before you guys leave, one of you are sure. Suck my dick. And I remember being in first grade, like, what does that mean? And he pulled down his pants in front of us and, you know, my brother went over there and did the deed and. And we left and never talked about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:29] How old was this boy?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:38:31] He was probably in eighth grade.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:33] And how old were you?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:38:34] I was in first grade. It was before I was baptized. So, like probably seven. And I'm three years older than my brother who has since passed away. We'll get to that.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:44] I'm so sorry.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:38:45] A lot of that has to do with this, that experience. But my brother Ryan. Because, you know, I was. I was seven, eight. So he was four. Four or five. And like, I remember, like, we never went back over to Dudley's and we would play in the. In the woods. And that's when I say protection.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:06] Yeah, that's right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:39:07] You know, that's where I'd kill.

Sean Dehlin [00:39:11] Sorry that happened.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:12] Yeah, yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:39:15] I thought I was going to get more emotional about that, but I've been, you know, preparing myself for that, so. But you. Growing up, though, my brother, I think, struggled with that a lot and was very promiscuous with women. To cover that up, he dropped out of high school as a freshman. The day I came home from my mission, he got out of prison. Mind you, he's three years younger than me. I remember pulling up and he had an ankle monitor on. Prison tattoos. And he was big, like muscular at the time. You know, I was always kind of a strong kid, wrestled. But I remember thinking, like, coming home from our mission, like, that's a good thing. I was a good brother, you know. But, yeah, I'm kind of jumping ahead. But, yeah, there's a story that involves

Margi Dehlin [00:40:12] that I think sometimes, too. Sometimes, you know, when something happens to you young and you're really vulnerable, this sense of, like, as you grow up, particularly, too, if you. Even if you process right, but if you don't process even more. So, you know, there's this sense of, like, I don't know, wanting a physicality that can protect you, you know what I mean? And really engaging in activities that allow for you to exert power and streng. Do you want to talk about that? Do you feel like there's no.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:40:51] You're absolutely on point. You know, another story to go with that is, you know, I said my dad was married five times. My mom was his fourth wife. And then he had three wives before that. Well, his first wife, he had boys when he was 16 in McKimming, Idaho. Twins. They're deceased now, but their name is Billy and Vaughn. And they were in their 20s the first time we met them in an apartment in Wyoming. And my mom and dad had gone out that night, and those two boys molested both of my sisters. Now they're half brothers, and they molested my oldest and my second older sister. And, you know, when they came home, I. My sisters told my dad what happened. And after that moment, he never had anything to do with those men in his life, those boys, never. So I think a lot of it was. I felt like, what happened to them, what happened to my younger brother, that should have happened to me because I was the older one. I just felt a sense of I need to protect.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:04] Yeah, there's a lot of danger.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:42:06] Yeah. So when I was in the eighth grade, fighting people, it wasn't me being a bully, but when someone would be a bully just a little bit to me, I would go 100% on them. And just to make sure I wasn't the one getting hurt.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:18] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:42:20] Yeah. So you're. You're spot on. And that leads to later in life when I joined the military, why I did.

Sean Dehlin [00:42:30] Wow. Powerful. Thank you for sharing.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:31] Yeah.

Deciding to Serve a Mission

Sean Dehlin [00:42:33] So as high school's wrapping up, not super academic, Working at Subway, earning a living, had done sports. But what did. What future did you see for yourself? Kind of graduating, I assume. Did you graduate from seminary?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:42:49] I did, I did. And I. My senior year, I got back in the sports. I would work, I would go to football practice, and then at like 5:30, I'd go straight to work till midnight, do my homework, if I did homework at work, and then I'd go to school the next day my senior year. You know, most seniors, when they go to school their senior year had like two or three classes. I had 10. Like, I had to fulfill all because my sophomore year, I skipped school.

Sean Dehlin [00:43:17] You were catching up.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:43:18] Yeah. My sophomore year, I skipped school to go prairie dog hunting, just all kinds of stuff in the outdoors. I never partied, never did drugs or drinking in high school. My, you know, my addiction was the outdoors. So I would skip school and just go in the woods around my house, go hunting. So I had, you know, and when you start skipping school, it gets addicting.

Sean Dehlin [00:43:42] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:43:43] So my senior year, I had a lot to catch up on. I was taking like, sophomore classes my senior year. And then I took seminary homebound, because all my time was filled up with classes I needed to pass. And I actually graduated seminary.

Sean Dehlin [00:44:01] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:44:02] So. And played sports and had a job.

Sean Dehlin [00:44:04] Wow. So super busy.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:44:06] And had a truck I was able to buy. It's a 1985 High Classic Sierra black pickup truck that I named the Midnight Riders after the Allman Brothers. And that was my truck. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:44:19] What year did you graduate from high school?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:44:20] 1996.

Sean Dehlin [00:44:21] 96?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:44:22] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:44:23] Okay, so you're nine years younger than me. Got it. Okay. So. Yeah. What, what did you want to go to college? Did you want to go get enlisted? What'd you want to do? I want to go on a mission. What do you want?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:44:35] I wanted to go on a mission.

Sean Dehlin [00:44:36] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:44:37] I knew about the end of my junior year, like, you know, I had a Lot of low, low self esteem. In high school I was a somewhat popular kid, but I never looked at myself like that. And you know, I didn't know it at the time, but I was really insecure. Really. I don't know, I just, you know, coming from a trailer park, we weren't rich. I think it had a lot to do with me having low self esteem. So it wasn't till my junior year that I thought, wow, maybe I, maybe a kid like me could go on a mission. I just thought that was for all the good rich Mormon kids that I hung out with. But never for me, a kid that lived in a trailer park. And then the second thing was, how would I even pay for this? So I knew by the end of my junior year I wanted to join the military. So my senior year comes around, there's a new kid that joins the Warriors. He just moved in from Spokane, Washington. His name was C.J. larson. And. And we just hit it off, you know, he struggled with narcolepsy. Falling asleep.

Sean Dehlin [00:45:47] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:45:48] You know, which just add to it, you know. But anyways, after my senior year I graduated high school, I went up to Spokane with him and we started roofing to earn money for our missions. And CJ was quite the entrepreneur. I mean, he knew how to roof. I didn't know any of this stuff. And he taught me over a summer we would rough all week and then we'd go up to Upper and Lower Priest Lake to go backpacking during the weekends and then we'd come back to work. Well, I was able to earn some money and flew back home at the end of August. That's my senior year. And you know, one thing I was going to talk about was my patriarchal blessing. I got my patriarchal blessing my sophomore year and it was four pages long, front and back. But most of it, you know, most people are thinking like, oh, that's amazing. Most of it was, don't do this, don't do this.

Sean Dehlin [00:46:47] Don't do what? What things did it say not to do?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:46:51] You know, I remember part of it was like, don't be loud and you know, like, don't laugh out loud. Don't be loosey goosey, I guess you could say, you know, talked about when I'd meet my wife, which I thought was really weird. It said, at a certain time of your life, when you're of the age hanging around good kids, you'll recognize your wife by the spirit, take her hand to be sealed for time and eternity. Right, I remembered that and I remember saying that I'd have a. You know, I'd be able to go on a mission in life to get a job that I could provide for my family. And so a lot of the. The life lessons. My patriarch was a. E. Woodrow Hunter. Now, that's a patriarchal name. But so I. I hung onto that. My patriarch. Patriarchal blessing. Like, it was true.

Sean Dehlin [00:47:48] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:47:49] In rewards, you know? And so when I came home my senior year, I. Or after my senior year, I shaved my head over the summer, and I looked ridiculous. So I come home. My best friend Matt Munson, at the time, was like, hey, there's a fireside tonight. We're all gonna go. And I was like, no, I'm not going, dude. I can't go, like, looking like this. And he's like, no, because you have a buzz cut. Yeah. So we went to the. The Steak center. And I remember walking in there, and as I'm moving into the pews, I look over to my left, and I see a girl I've never really noticed before. And again, I heard a voice say, she'll make a good wife. And I remember sitting down, stunned, because I'm preparing to go on a mission. I just bought John by the Way's book, Preparing for a Mission, and it had a section in there called Pushing the Pause on the Tape Recorder of Love. And at the time, I was dating a girl I really liked, and I broke it off because I wanted to focus on this mission. So why was I hearing a voice say, she would make a good wife? So I don't even remember the Fireside. I remember just sitting there thinking, that was so odd. Well, afterwards, the girl that she was with, her name was Diane. I used to work with her at Subway. I was close friends with her and her mom. And after the Fireside, I walked up to Diane. I said, hey, who was that girl you were with? And she goes, oh, that was Amy. And I'm like, she goes to our high school, right? Or the high school. She's like, yeah, she's in the same grade as me. And come to find out, my brother knew her. He was three years younger than me, and he was like, yeah, I remember my sophomore. Or I remember in middle school, in sixth grade, like, I was teasing her and pushed her friend down on the football field. And that girl said, I hope you and your whole family die because she was mad that her friend got hurt. Going back to that story about my parents, you never know who you're going to marry. So I asked Diana. I said, hey, ask her if she'd like to go out sometime. And she goes, yeah, sure, I would. About four or five months goes along. I'd already turned in my papers to go on a mission. And a friend of mine, we go to the rec center, and the lifeguard there is that girl Amy. And we're playing basketball in the pool. You know, I had a little hoop there, and we missed it one time. She went and got the ball. She came and brought it to us. And I remember her saying. Or. I remember asking her, like, so why are you afraid of me? And she goes, what are you talking about? And I said, I asked Diane, your friend, like, if you wanted to go out a few months ago. And she. She goes, are you serious? Like, I asked her that. I thought you were. I told her I thought you were cute and I wanted to go out with you. So we pretty much realized, like, Diane was trying to.

Sean Dehlin [00:50:35] You know.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:50:35] Diane had a crush on me, it was as well. And she was, like, trying to keep us apart. So after that, we went on a date, and we were connected at the hit. Till the day I went on my mission. Wow.

Sean Dehlin [00:50:46] Okay. Where. Where'd you surf?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:50:49] Jamaica. Oh, the Jamaica Kingston Mission.

Sean Dehlin [00:50:52] Wow. Okay. When you said, no woman, no cry,

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:50:55] it had nothing to do with that Marley song. I was a huge Bob Marley fan myself. Sophomore year in high school. In high school, all of my friends were.

Sean Dehlin [00:51:04] So that's a coincidence that you got called to Jamaica as a Bob Marley fan.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:51:07] So I remember getting my calling, you know. You know how it is. All your friends come over, and I opened up my calling. It says, you are hereby served, or said the call to serve in the Jamaican Kingston Mission. And I'm like, where in the world is that? So I said, mom, where is Jamaica? And she's like, I think it's off the coast of New York. I don't know why she said that, but I remember watching Cool Runnings. I'm like, I don't think it's off the coast of New York. So, yeah, that was my mission.

Mission Experiences and Teaching the Gospel

Sean Dehlin [00:51:37] And so you're Bob Marley fan not knowing where Jamaica was?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:51:40] Basically, yeah.

Sean Dehlin [00:51:41] Okay, cool.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:51:42] Like I said at the time, I was not, like, very academic.

Sean Dehlin [00:51:45] I mean, Jamaica is east of New York, right? Like in the very south of east and South Florida.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:51:51] The little Cuba.

Sean Dehlin [00:51:52] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:53] We might describe it as south.

Sean Dehlin [00:51:57] I mean, she wasn't totally wrong.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:51:59] Well, there is a Jamaica. New York.

Sean Dehlin [00:52:01] Yes. Yes.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:52:02] So in her defense.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:07] All right.

Sean Dehlin [00:52:07] How was your mission?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:52:09] Awesome.

Sean Dehlin [00:52:10] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:52:11] To this day, I can honestly say it was one of the things that I needed in My life. So, you know, in high school, I had a hard time understanding anything. And I made sure when I went on a mission, I took care of everything. Like, I had never had sex before a mission. A lot of my friends did, but I had kept myself pure. Wasn't a partier, wasn't a drinker. I was just into the outdoors, you know. So now I had a cousin that had served a mission a couple years earlier. He actually served where I live now. But the only other person I knew in my family that served a mission was him. And we would write letters to each other. So my vision of missionaries at the time were like angels. Literally. I thought they were perfect. Every time they came to my house, I just thought they were perfect. I thought this experience in the MTC was going to be amazing, right? Well, I entered the MTC on June 4th of 1997. My bishop made me sell my truck to make money. And so I was, you know, I sold my truck. I was very determined to do this. Within a couple days being in the mtc, I just had this experience happen to me where I was just like, I'm not meant to be here. Like, I'm not like these kids here. And I was judging myself. And that low self esteem came back in. And after about a week, it really bothered me. And I remember thinking, like, I don't even know if I have a testimony as a Book of Mormon. I had read the Book of Mormon probably three times by now.

Sean Dehlin [00:53:54] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:53:56] And always thought I had a testimony. But I don't know what was going on. I knew it wasn't that I was impure or anything. I was just suffering, suffering. And I remember one day I was like, well, you know, one thing about me is I'm not going to do anything that I don't feel is right. Like I'm not going to violate my integrity. And I remember even in the MTC thinking, well, if I don't have a hundred percent testimony, which I always did my whole life I did, why am I experiencing this now? So I remember thinking, well, I'm going to fast. And at the end of the fast, I'll have my answer. So I started a fast on the afternoon of a certain day, right? And all that, the rest of the day goes on. We go to dinner that night. I'm thinking, like an angel with a sword is going to show up and be like, ross, this is true. I wake up in the morning, nothing. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? Like, I'm going To have to leave the MTC and I'm going to go join the French Foreign Legion because I can't show my face back home. You know, all my. All my family, no one was active, but I was like that shining star that they would always talk about, like, Ross is doing the right thing. Ross. I mean, they're so proud that I was going on mission. They're believers, but they just, you know, my brother was into drugs, had gone to boys home. My sister's. My younger sister, you know, she was involved in drugs. My older sister, she was married and she was doing great, but. And she was a believer, but just not active, you know. And then I had a younger brother, but. So I'm lying in my bunk bed in the MTC that morning thinking, what in the world is going to happen? Either I get an answer or I'm going home. Still in the mtc, I'd read the scriptures and I just didn't understand. Just wasn't cognitive wise. It wasn't coming together. So I go to breakfast, we come home, or we come to our dorm rooms and everyone's sleeping and I'm still reading my scriptures. And then we go to class and I'm starting to get more worried, like, oh, my gosh, this is gonna be it. And at lunchtime, they're like, hey, we have a special devotional we're gonna go to prior to going to lunch. And apparently the CES had just come out with the Book of Mormon video that hit like in 1997, but we were privileged to see it before anyone did. So we go into the auditorium and I remember they're playing it and

Sean Dehlin [00:56:48] it's

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:56:48] the Book of Mormon video where Christ visits the Nephites, right? And this little young girl who's bringing her blind mom to Jesus, you know, and it shows the back of Jesus. I remember this perfectly. And I just felt something swelling up in my chest, like, oh, my gosh. And I just remember saying, show his face. Show his face. And when the video pans around to Jesus, you know, he heals a woman's leopard hand or whatever, I lost it. I just start bawling. And I felt something so strong inside. You know, my whole district is probably looking at me like, why is this weirdo crying? You know, like, what's he crying about? But they don't. They didn't understand the struggle, like, internally I was going through, and I felt like this was my answer, like God had answered my prayers. I'm just losing it. Like, snot going everywhere. I mean, losing it. And so we go to chow. We had, like, an hour break before going to class. I remember sitting down and I opened up the book, 1 Nephi, chapter 14. And I could. I knew, like, something had unlocked in my brain where when I would start reading, like, I understood it. And I remember thinking, wow, let's talk about Christopher Columbus. Oh, wow, let's talk about the Revolutionary War. And, you know, those chapters 14, 15, and 16 about how America gets set up? It made sense. And from that time on, like, everything just clicked to the point where on my mission, I would read, you know, those companionship books that you could get at the mission office for the Old Testament and New Testament. I'd read those front and back. Like, I would wake up an hour prior to the hour you're supposed to wake up because I couldn't get enough of the Book of Mormon. And people would call me, like, missionaries would call me out of the blue, be like, hey, Elder Martin, I remember you talked about, in the, you know, the Old Testament, companionship about something, something, something. Where was that at? And I. In my head, I could be like, yeah, that's like, around page 100. If you look on the left side, it's the third paragraph down. Like, that's how involved I was. So it had definitely unlocked something in my mind. And I was just 100% into it to the point where I was probably too into it. Like, I'd get in arguments with missionaries who I felt wasn't doing the right thing. You know, just my first companion. Love him, but, man, we would argue every night because in Jamaica, there's not a lot of priesthood holders. There was a lot of women in the church. And, you know, my first experience on the island, he took me to a member's house to go watch the movie, the Last Boy Scout, which I had seen before I knew it was radar. It had nudity. He's sitting in there watching it with the members.

Sean Dehlin [00:59:48] Is that Bruce Willis?

Ross "Marty" Martin [00:59:49] Yes. And Wayne, the black comedian. I forget his name, but, yeah, he's in there. Anyways, I remember they were inside the building, and I'm out on the veranda knowing that that was wrong, reading my scriptures, like, what in the world's going on? And me and that first companion, I mean, we would bump heads every day. Every day. It was a struggle to get him out on time. He was always telling me, back then, you had to memorize your discussions, right? You had six discussions. And it was kind of a good thing. If you're greeny, memorize the first one right away. So I Did. But we would get into heated arguments because he would want to go visit the single members in the evening. The women and I would argue with him like, no, we can't be doing that. He's like, well, who else? It gets dark in Jamaica about six or seven, well, what else we gonna do? And he later was sent home from his mission. A couple companions downed, I think because his dad died or something. So he went home for that. Not anything to do with sin. So I get a new companion. And from then on all the companions I had were like brothers. And Elder Broadbent, he was a new companion. Even though he was older out longer than me, he had had a bad experience with his trainer. So I was kind of like, since he was coming to my area, I was like the senior companion. And man, we hit it off. I mean, we went to work. So a couple, couple stories from my mission that kind of affected me was so I'm from Wyoming. There was a missionary there from Wyoming prior to me being there. And he was like a legend, like just a worker. And you know, when we flew into the island, the mission president had us all there, all 12 of us new missionaries. And he's like, hey, you're from Wyoming. Elder Martin. I said, yeah. And he goes, I just had a missionary fulfill his two years from Wyoming. And he's like listening off everything he did. And he goes, you need to fulfill his shoes. And I remember thinking like, how am I going to do that? You know, like low self esteem guy here, you know, I'm like, oh boy. And you know, there was a one coveted spot in the mission and it was Grand Cayman. And I remember the mission president saying, some of you guys here, if you do the right thing, we're going to have the opportunity serving Grand Cayman. Right off the bat I was like, oh, that won't be me. You know, like I'm just. And you know, probably being on the island a month into it, right? We're doing everything right. We had to take the bus to go to church. And on that bus I just had this feeling like, man, a guy like me could get married in the temple someday. I'm on my mission thinking, wow, a guy like me could get married in the temple someday. Which is so weird because it was not part of my life, you know, like merit. Like, you know, I remember getting my temple garments and pulling them out of the dryer and seeing like markings on them. And my first thought was, man, the church is so cheap. They recycled these garments from somebody.

Sean Dehlin [01:03:19] Oh, because the, because the marks Would have been like holes sewed up.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:23] Yeah,

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:03:27] I thought they were like somebody's used garments at the church we saw. It just didn't dawn on me, you know, it wasn't until I went on my mission that like, like cognitive wise like I believe I became smarter. And anyways, yeah, so the, the experience I had was we had to go up to the mission office on p days to grab our mail. And Amy, the girl I was dating prior to leaving, I told her like, if you write me a letter, I'll write your bike. You know, I'm not gonna do this dating thing because you know, she wrote me every week and I wrote her back every single week and her mom would write me. Anyways, I go up there to get my mail and the mission president, Eugene Morin pulls me in and apparently a couple a missionary companionship had like taught like 25 discussions in a week, which was like huge in Jamaica. And he pulled me in the office, he's like, Elder Martin, you heard about so and so teaching 25 missions or discussions. I was like, yes President. He goes, I want you to beat that. And at first I was mad like who, who am I? You know, like why, why me? Like you know, we're teaching like 12 discussions a week considering that's good. Just get into a home to teacher discussion. So myself and Elder Broadbent, we go back and I like telling like what the mission president said and we're like, yeah, let's do it. Let's try to, let's try to be, we'll teach 30. And in my head I'm like, there's no way. There's no way we're going to teach 30 discussions. But I'm determined. And I remember there was a sheet that was passed around the mission called Making covenants with the Lord. And I read that thing like that night, just back and forth like, okay, we can do this. If this is right, God's going to let me know. So I prayed and I got a good feeling about it. Well, we're teaching like the devil all week. We're on track. And it got to the point where I like Elder Broadbent, like Friday night it's like dude, I gotta tap out man. I'm just worn out. So I'd go on splits to continue trying to teach this mission. This discussion with my good friend Elder Rupp and Elder Cusack. And Sunday night we had taught 32 proper discussions. And to me that was like a mark. Like wow, like I can do this, like I can do this. And it Always stuck with me like that experience. And I still had that blue planner to this day. Of all everyone you taught, you fold

Sean Dehlin [01:06:18] it up and put it in your pocket, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:06:19] Yeah, I kept it forever. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [01:06:21] Wow. Wow. So did you end up in the Cayman Islands?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:06:27] I did. So my second area, we were sent to a place called Lucy Jamaica. Never had any missions and I was a complete stick in the mud. I can look back and be like, dude, I would have hated now to be my companion. Like, I was like, by the book. And so I found out that my companion was going to be a guy named Elder Turner, who's just coming off being his own leader, but was getting ready to go home. And I don't know about your mission and I hope I don't make anyone mad by saying this, but I. It was weird in my mission. Like if you're from California, you were a little apostate. But if you came from like Utah, Arizona, they were considered Elder Zion. And my two best friends were Elder Rupp from Utah, who I called Elder Zion, and Elder Cusack from Folsom, California. I considered like Elder Babylon, but they were both my best friends. I loved them both, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:21] Elder Babylon?

Sean Dehlin [01:07:22] Yeah. I mean, it's California, Margi, come on.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:07:26] We would always call him like. And he knew it, you know, he'd grow his hair long and, you know, had a lot of money on a mission, but. And he's gonna laugh when he hears about that. But anyways, we go, me and Elder Turner are going to open up this area. But back then, you know, on mission transfer days, you would have like, you know, what's saying is how many missionaries can you fit in the car? Always one more. Because the zone leaders would have to drive all the missionaries everywhere. And to go like, you know, 300 miles on your mission in Jamaica was an all day thing through the mountains. And we jump in the car and Elder Turner's driving and we're stopping in Montego Bay, Jamaica, and we have to drop off our. Everyone wants to drop off their film because back then you had the old wind up film, right? So we park in this parking lot and there's like eight missionaries coming out of this little Mitsubishi. And as we're crossing the road, there's a homeless man there. He's like, elders, elders, can you give me some money? And we're all like, honestly, we didn't have like any change. We're like, hey, we're gonna go spend some money and we'll give you some change on the way back. And he's like, ah, blessed, blessed, blessed. So we go spend the whole day in the mall eating, and we blow pretty much all of our money. Forget about this homeless guy, you know, we're coming back. And the. The guy's like, hey, you said you'd give me money. And the other turns like, ah, move on, man. We get in the car. Elder Turner used to play like semi professional baseball, right? We're leaving, and this guy had like an empty water bottle. Empty. So that's a car, right? Probably weighs like 4 ounces. Bounces off the car. Oh, man. Well, hell, the Turner pulled over and gets out of the car and starts walking towards this guy. And we're like, what's Turner doing, man? And we turn around and he's like arguing with this homeless man and spit a loogie in his face.

Sean Dehlin [01:09:29] Whoa.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:09:30] Now this is like, I'm saying this to this day. Ellerton Turner and I are very close. He was one of the best companions I had. But we get out and they're like, jamaicans can throw a rock. You served your mission in South America or Central America or something like that. People in third world countries know how to throw a rock. And this homeless guy is just throwing rocks at Elder Turner and he's like hopping in the street, like, trying to avoid him. I didn't know what to do. But being a good, faithful companion, I find a rock on the road, I'm like, turner. And I throw it to him. I didn't know he played baseball. He grabbed that rock and just hit that guy in the chest, knocked him down. At this point, we had like a huge crowd over us. And I'm thinking, dude, we're dead, man. A bunch of white kids assaulting this homeless black guy, this Jamaican, right? And the cops show up, and the cops in Jamaica, they beat you first, and then they ask questions. So they're asking the crowd, who did this? Who did this? And they were all pointing at the homeless guy. And I just remember they like pummeled him. And Turner turned around with a stick in his face, like, oh, man. He gets in the car. We still had two hours to our area. Not a word was spoken. Just, you know, that night, like, he apologized. But I say that because little Turner taught me how to. After telling that funny story. No, that story. But he actually taught me how to not be such a stick in the mud that you could work hard and enjoy your mission. So he was getting ready to die soon, getting ready to go home. So he taught me a lot about missionary work. I don't know what that whole experience on Montego Bay was about. But I'll never forget that we didn't have a phone in our flat because we had just found this area. We actually found the apartment area. So when we go to district meeting the following Tuesday, the district leaders are like, bro, you guys almost killed that guy. You guys made the news because of that. And I just remember thinking, what in the world's going on? You know? But I had an amazing mission. Like, I had, like, I could honestly say, like, miracles. I saw miracles on my mission. We healed a girl that was almost dead in Lucy, Jamaica. So I. And then when I was in Lucy, I was forming, like, this huge cyst on my neck. We're out in the bush, we're knocking on gates, you know, and people would come out and we'd say, hey, we're so and so from the street. And people weren't even noticing my mission or my message. They just look at my neck, you know, it had gotten that big, and I didn't know what the heck was going on. So we go to the zone conference, and the mission mom and dad are there. And the mission mom, Carol Moore, she sees me and just makes a beeline to me. She's like, elder Martin, what's on your neck? You know, I'm, like, pushing it in. Like, I don't know. Sister Moore. It doesn't hurt, though.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:40] He wasn't here a few months ago.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:12:42] But the next day, I'm on a plane to Salt Lake. This is, like, halfway through my mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:48] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:12:49] I show up here. My mom picks me up at the airport. My mom and one of her, our dear friend Dovey. And they had already set up the apartment with the UAV through the church. And that night we stopped at Subma Hotel. I'm on my bed, My mom's on her bed. And she could hear me, like, in the middle of the night, just starting to whimper because I'm starting to question, like, if I'm even. If they're even going to let me go back on my mission. Because my mission was everything. I did not get homesick on my mission. Like, I had companions that got homesick. I loved it because for me, this is what your life should be. I was, for once, in an environment where I was safe. So I'm crying. My mom wakes up. She lays next to me in bed and just rubs my head till I fall asleep. I'm a grown man, and my mom's taking care of me. So next day, we get the doctor says a prayer. Everything goes good. They they just had to drain out fluid. They sent me home for a week and I'm like, oh, man, I don't want to go home. Like, you know, my house, you can watch R rated movies. You know, everyone smoked. All my siblings smoked. So I go home and got in a little bit of depression and I was like, I'm going to go out and serve with the missionaries. Saw my girlfriend Amy, she came to the house. So I just started feeling like a loser. And I'd go out with the missionaries, but it wasn't the same. I get a phone call a week later from the missionary department and I forget the gentleman's name, but he was like, elder Martin, I have great news for you. You're good to go on a mission. I was like, oh, that's awesome. When do I get to leave? And he goes, well, here's the thing. What would you think about finishing your mission in the Ogden, Utah Mission?

Sean Dehlin [01:14:50] Marky's looking at me. Why are you looking at me?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:14:54] And I remember saying, listen here. I had a prophet of God, Gordon B. Hinckley, tell me I'm serving a mission in the Kingston, Jamaica Mission, and I'm going to fulfill that mission.

Sean Dehlin [01:15:08] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:15:09] And I hung up the phone. He calls back two minutes later and says, all right, Elder Martin, we got you a plane ticket, as it turns out, and they're going back to Jamaica. I had missed Jamaica while I was gone. I didn't think I would miss it, you know, because Friday night there's speakers and they're blasting the speakers. There's people in fluorescent pans and shaking and everything. And when I was home that week, I realized how much I missed it and loved it. So as I'm flying into the Kingston Jamaican Manly Airport, whatever it was, in Kingston, Jamaica, my heart's just full. And I'm like, I'm home. I'm back with my people, you know? And that experience, like, it just rejuvenated me for my mission because it was the halfway mark. After that, he called to be a zone leader. Just on fire, Just on fire. And then I get called to go serve in Grand Cayman. So for me, a mission really did two things. It taught me how to study. Somehow opened up my mind to be able to understand things. And it grew a love for the gospel. Like, I remember asking my mission president, hey, you know, at the time, Jeffrey R. Harland came out with a book called Christ and the New Covenant. And I asked Amy to send it to me. And I'm like, president Maury, can I read this book? And he gave me permission on P days to read that book. And then I had gospel doctrine, St. Joseph F. Smith. And I asked him and he was always cool about like, yeah, you can read that book. So I grew a love for the church, the history and everything. And then I come home and then I just loved my mission. To this day, I'm so grateful that I went on mission because it did. It really did everything. It set my life up for the rest of my life. Wow. Just confidence. I came home with. I remember coming home thinking, dude, the world is my oyster. I can do anything. You know, I just got back just the avenues that were open to me. I felt like I could do anything. It was great for me.

Sean Dehlin [01:17:21] What a blessing. For some reason, I'm thinking of my stepdad who I think grew up in Blackfoot 2. Long, long time ago, and he's passed away. But I think the military served a similar role that your mission did for you for a kid in Blackfoot. Because it gave him discipline, it gave him structure, it gave him meaning, it gave him purpose, and he flourished. He ended up at Columbia getting a master's degree, barely passing high school in Blackfoot. You know what I mean?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:17:52] Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I mean, it was for a feral kid like me, and I was feral. Yeah, I was wild. Yeah, it did. Structure wise. It was everything I needed.

Sean Dehlin [01:18:03] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:18:03] You know, and it taught me how to get along with people, how to just overlook, like, little things that people do to you. And it taught me to have a love for Christ. We baptized a lot of people, which wasn't common in Jamaica. And it was just exactly what Ross Martin needed at that time in his life to set him up for success.

Sean Dehlin [01:18:23] Beautiful. Beautiful. So what did you do after your mission?

Coming Home and Searching for Direction

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:18:27] I came home and got depressed.

Sean Dehlin [01:18:29] Yeah. Right away. Without the structure.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:18:32] Yeah. Right away, you.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:35] It's a very clear purpose on your mission.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:18:38] Yeah. I knew one thing. I knew I had to work. So the very next day after coming home, I got a job with my girlfriend, who's now my wife, with her dad doing construction. Because I knew, like, one thing I knew was I need to get to work. I can't be idle. Idle hands are devil's worship.

Sean Dehlin [01:18:56] Yep.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:18:57] So I'm working my butt off and I'm like, do I want to go to, you know, at the time Rex, or should I just go to Salt Lake Community College where I applied at the Ricks, but that was too late. So at the time, Amy and I are dating, but we can't keep our hands off of Each other. And I was Amy's first boyfriend, you know, so, you know, we would like make out till like 2 in the morning. Sorry, kids, you're gonna hear this story. But, you know, we just couldn't leave each other alone. And so we had set a date for to be married in Salt Lake temple. It was May 9th of 1999, or was it 2009? And I kept calling it off, like just marriage to me. I was so wishy washy, I started resorting back. You know, my dad was married five times. Marriage to me was, it was a scary thing. And I personally didn't feel like I was ready. So we'd set up a new date in the temple. Two months later, I'd call it off.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:06] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:20:07] And Amy's mom, my mother in law, sat me down, I always remember this and just went down the line of like, you're not ready, you're too wishy washy. I don't know if you could even support my daughter on down the line. At the time it really hurt. But I needed someone to sit me down and give me that talk. Now I'm crying the whole time Amy's crying. I'm feeling very hurt. But what she did was the right thing. And I remember getting in my truck and that day I moved down to Salt Lake to here, Salt Lake City, moved in with my cousin and said, hey, we need some separation because if we keep going down the road that we're going, we're not going to be able to get married in the temple. Well, about two days later, I'm missing her so bad. I'm like, I call her up on the phone, I'm like, doesn't your cousin live down here? I really miss you. And she ended up moving down to Salt Lake and we both go to Salt Lake Community College, engaged three more times. I called her off every single time. And you know, her parents at this time had kind of written me off like, this guy's never going to marry you. Like, just move on. Which is the advice I would have gave, you know, like, this guy's too wishy washy and doesn't know what he wants to do in life. And so Amy came up to me one time, this is like a year later, she's like, we're either getting married tomorrow or you're never going to see me ever again. And that day we jumped in her car, drove all the way to Lake Tahoe, didn't tell anyone, didn't tell her family, didn't tell my family, and got married, drove all the way back and started looking for an apartment together.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:53] And how was that for you? Because you feared it. It seems like it was something that you really had a lot of fear around. So how was it to just do it?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:22:01] She hates when I tell the story, but again, up to the time that I put that ring on her finger, I'm holding the ring and I'm like, I could still run. I'll go join the French Foreign Legion. Just going through the whole thing again, like, I could still run. And I put that finger on, I'm like, I'm a dead man. Like, I don't know what it was. I just feared marriage. The Monday I came home from work, we had gotten an apartment. She's in there cooking. And I walked through the apartment like, well, this is awesome. My best friend's cooking me dinner after I come home from work and school. And, you know, it was just amazing. Our marriage was, you know, just the brand new life we lived.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:42] We.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:22:42] We lived in a brand new apartment in Taylorsville. It was beautiful. It was right along the. The riverwalk.

Sean Dehlin [01:22:49] Yeah, that's where we start our little bike rides in the Jordan River Trail.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:52] Margi.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:22:52] Yes. Yeah, we would walk that every street. She worked at Wells Fargo at the time. It was up in the Avenues, and she was going to Salt Lake Community College. I worked for a company called Fionova, which is weird because the hotel I stayed in last night was right across the street. It was like memories coming back. And I was making good money and I was still going to school, but I was missing something. I was missing that structure. So one time at lunch, I go to the army recruiter. Don't even talk to Amy about it. And I joined the Army.

Sean Dehlin [01:23:30] Whoa. You know, as an enlisted.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:23:33] Enlisted active duty army with a Ranger contract.

Sean Dehlin [01:23:37] Wow. Without talking to your wife first.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:23:39] Without even talking to her.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:41] So we know. We know that that has been kind of living inside you for many years. Have you talked about it with Amy at all?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:23:50] Yeah, I did. So I joined the reserves in Utah while I was going to school, just to see if I liked the military life. So she was used to, like, to that a little bit, you know, and that was just to pay for school, to help me pay for school. So I was going through school. But even on my mission, like when I was being the bush, even then I'd be like, oh, I'd love to have a rucksack and a gun and just walk around like I'm in Vietnam. I would think about that on my mission. It was really weird. And When I came home, I was just missing that, like, warrior. Just, you know, like, I felt like there's something missing in my life. And so I came home from work and I said, you know, Amy's like, how was your day? I'm like, oh, it was great. Normal, you know, at lunchtime, one thing, one quick thing. I joined the army. All right, I'm going to the bathroom. You did what? And then I came out. I was like, yeah, honey, I. I joined the army. And the look on her face was just like. Just pure, like, shock. You didn't talk to me about this, mind you. This is. This is July of 2001.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:03] Oh.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:25:04] You know, my dad at this time is. He's very anti government. You could think of northern Idaho.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:11] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:25:12] Ruby Ridge and Waco. My dad, you know, my dad was friends with Bo GR and helped him talk Randy Weaver off the mountain. Like, my dad was like, you know, he lived in Vegas. He was in security, worked at the showboat, was in charge of security there. So he knew a lot of people and he. He was very militant minded. I mean, I remember he would have, like, we would go without eating, but he would have 100 guns. Like, we never went without eating. But, you know, my freshman year, I'm like, hey, dad, I'd like to play basketball. Can I join the team? And he's like, here's $10. Bring me back the change for your shoes. And I was like, ah, it's all right, Dad, $10, I can go buy anything. But he would have 100 guns and a bus full of food stores.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:00] Interesting.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:26:02] So at this time, I come home and I tell my dad, like, hey, dad, we actually went shooting. Like, I took my wife to meet my dad, takes us shooting. He's like, well, if you're gonna marry her someday, she's gonna need to know how to back you up in a bad situation.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:18] Oh, wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:26:19] So she never shot a gun. Takes her out with the mini 14 teachers. She actually outshot me, which I was pretty upset about, you know. And then, well, I called my dad on the phone. I said, dad, I joined the army. My dad's very anti government at the time. You know, he was the kind of guy who was like, hey, they come take your arms. Guys in black helicopters are going to put you down and take your guns, and if you deny Christ, they'll put you in a concentration camp.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:47] Oh, wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:26:47] That's how I was raised.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:49] Wow.

Sean Dehlin [01:26:50] Just like, I refer to that kind of thinking as kind of conspiratorial thinking. A little bit extremely yeah, And I remember Bo Gritz. I was at byu and Bo Grizz was running for president. I remember the Ruby Ridge standoff in Idaho and Janet Reno and David Koresh and Waco. It was a time where kind of there was a militia mentality in parts of the United States. People who felt disenfranchised or suspicious of the government and so that was your dad.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:27:23] Yeah, yeah, to a T. You know, you also had the Oklahoma City bombing.

Sean Dehlin [01:27:27] Yeah, with Timothy McVeigh.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:27:29] Yep, yep. So, you know, the freshman year, I lived with my dad. Like I was just. That's when Ruby Ridge happened in the. In the fall, and then in the spring, Waco happened. So the whole time, my dad's glued to, you know, and I'm. I'm getting all this, like, literature, like, you don't have to pay your taxes. We are free Americans, you know, with capital. You know, your name has to be capital. And the government. Anyways, so being a person that looked up to my dad extremely at the time, like, I had those thoughts. Like, I never thought I was going to graduate high school because the world was going to come to the end. I'd never get married because the world's going to come to the end, you know, and Christ would come, you know, because my dad just drilled that in my head. So, you know, after my mission, after getting married, I'm like, I think I'm going to join the Army. Like this. I felt a calling to it. Like something was, you know, like my whole life, when I feel that calling, I had to listen to it. So I went and joined the army, called my dad up and said, dad, I did something you're gonna be disappointed in. And he goes, what'd you do? What stupid thing did you do?

Sean Dehlin [01:28:36] Oops.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:28:37] I said, I joined the Army. He goes, you did what? Said, I joined the army and I got a Ranger contract. And he goes, well, at least you're smart enough to do that. And he goes, you know, son, you know, my dad's predicting.

Sean Dehlin [01:28:52] What did he mean by smart enough to do which thing?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:28:55] He respected the Rangers, okay? He was a Ranger. He thought if I was in the Ranger unit, at least I'd be with squared away guys. So. But he came to visit us right before I left, and he said, son, I have something to tell you. We're probably gonna get in a war soon, and you're gonna be involved in it.

Sean Dehlin [01:29:17] Yeah. Cause you said summer of 2001. That's right before 9, 11.

Joining the Military After 9/11

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:29:23] Yeah, right. And I'm on the back porch. My dad's telling me this. I'm like, oh, man, Crazy Bill's coming out. Like, let's talk. You know, like, okay, whatever, dad. So I'm in basic training, and 911 happened. I just remember thinking, the one time he drives, the one time it had to be now, you know? But I remember that day clearly and vividly where I was at everything. You know, that was the day I was like, this is for real. This is for real. And I was having a lot of cognitive dissonance because I had just come home not too long ago teaching people to love your fellow man. And here I am in basic training, infantry training at Fort Benning, learning how to kill my fellow man, Right? So it hit me hard. And now we'd go on to ait, which you kind of get weekends off. Well, not in AIT but in airborne school, you got weekends off. Well, I had made sure prior to going to airborne school, I had bought general conference discs on cd. I mean, they're like this thick because it's like eight of them, you know? And all weekend, I just listen to general conference people because I didn't want to be involved in the shenanigans that were going on around me with a bunch of privates. You know, I'm just craziness. But my two best friends in basic training was Omar Shamir Badr. He was a Muslim, and Anthony Moreshi, who was lds, but, like, totally off the charts. Right? But we hung out together because we had a connection and, like, a belief in something. And we were kind of like the stronger kids in basic training that everyone looked up to. So we gravitated to each other. Well, during the weekends after airborne school, I had to go to what's called Ranger indoctrination program.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:16] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:31:17] 9 11's already hit, and we're getting ready to be rangers. But there's so many people who joined the army after 911 that there was, like, a holdover time. So, you know, they would arranger class. Rip would have, like, 400 students. They only accept 60. 60 or 70.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:39] Oh, I see.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:31:40] So you would have to wait till that class graduated. So we had, like, two months of just waiting. Well, Anthony's dad was a doctor up in Chattanooga. So on the weekends to get away, we'd go to his house. So at this time in my life, I'm very, extremely homophobic. And Anthony had been a bodybuilder prior to joining the military. And he was a dancer. And I just remember, like, when I was like, you're a dancer? What do you mean? He goes I was a strip dancer. And I'm like, you're Mormon. How are you doing that? You know? And he goes, oh, it was for a gay club. And I was like, a gay club? You're stripping for a gay club, but they're gay. And he'd be like, yeah, but they pay better money than, you know. I never knew any. This is like a new world to me. Anthony was an awesome guy. Anyways, so we'd go stay at his place with his dad in Chattanooga. Well, knowing that I was very homophobic and, you know, they weren't. They're normal kids, they devised a plan so I would always be the DD because I did not drink moreushi. Omar. They did, you know. So I'd be driving Moreshi's truck around and dropping him off at a club, and I'm like, I'm gonna go to Barnes and Noble, call my wife on the cell phone. What time you want me to pick you up? And I'd always come pick him up. Well, one night, they're like, hey, I'm going to introduce Omar to my old boss where I used to dance, but it's not gay. It's just a normal club. I was like, okay. So I go in there, and I remember looking around and there's strobe lights, and they're like, all right, Marty, go find a seat. We're gonna go talk to the boss. I was like, all right. So I go sit down, and, you know, there's not a lot of dancing going on here. There's a lot of guys in this place. You know, I'm like. But I'm not thinking anything. I'm naive. And, you know, these gentlemen sit down with me, and we're having a talk. And mind you, this is a different time in my life. I was very judgmental. And it starts dawning on me like. Like these. You know, I've heard of Southern hospitality. These guys are really nice, you know? And, you know, I remember asking them like, hey, is. Is this a gay joint? And then the look they gave me, and I was just like, oh, I understand. So I'm, like, looking for Anthony and Omar, and I'm freaking out, like, what in the world? You know? And I can't find them in this club. And I finally run to the front door and I kick open the door. They were in his truck. Just, like, timing me to see how long it took for me to realize where I was at, right? So I jump in the back of the truck, and I'm freaking out. I'm like, Guys, I think that's a gay place. And they're like, oh, yeah, that was it. I used to dance here. Like, I'm hitting them and. And I remember telling him, like, hey, man, I saw a cute girl in there. Like. And Anthony's like, nah, bro, that wasn't no girl. And I just remember thinking, what. What am I doing? You know, like, the life choices I made. So it was crazy. But I go through. I go through RIP Training, and you have to do a lot of pull ups there, right? It's like one of the requirements. I remember I'm doing pull ups. You're supposed to do 10 pull ups. And I get to 12, and I'm like, waiting for the cadre to be like, all right, Ranger, dismount the bar. But he's like, keep going, Orgasmo. And I had no idea what he was talking about. So I'm like, orgasmo. Is he talking to me? And I'm doing pull ups, and I get to like, 18 or 19. He's like, all right, dismount the bar. And I walk over to Anthony. I'm like, why does everybody keep calling me Orgasmo? Well, I didn't know that a movie had come out at that time about a return. I guess everybody knew I was Mormon, you know, and they're like, it was.

Sean Dehlin [01:35:38] It was made, I think, by the guys who made South Park. Yes, Trey and Matt. Trey Stern and Matt Parker. And they made a movie called Orgasmo.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:35:45] I've watched it since.

Sean Dehlin [01:35:47] Yeah, it was about Mormon missionaries.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:35:49] Yeah, he came home, he was trying to find money, so he gets into porn. You know, I didn't know that. So the. The whole time in RIP everyone's calling me or Gasbone. I'm like, why do they keep calling me Orgasmo? You know, that was my nickname.

Sean Dehlin [01:36:05] Let me ask you, taking it back to military, when you joined, I know your dad had done it, and you're looking for structure. Were there any other motivating factors? Like, I know the Book of Mormon talks a lot about, you know, Captain Moroni and the wars, and your dad was sort of anti government by this point. But traditionally, the Doctrine and Covenants, Mormonism, the Mormon Church has tended to be very patriotic, very pro military, very pro country, pro constitution. So I'm just curious what you were thinking in terms of, like, what your main drivers or motivations were for wanting to be in the service and if they were tied to religion at all or not.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:36:48] That's a very good question.

Sean Dehlin [01:36:49] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:36:50] So in my mind, I'm thinking that I need to Go into a specialized training because I might be the next Porter Rockwell. I wanted to be a bodyguard of the prophets. You know, I'm thinking in my mind, the Constitution is going to hang by a thread and it's going to be the Latter Day Saint priesthood that's going to restore it. And I wanted to be part of that army. So, yes, some of the motivating factors for that was I need to learn this training because I want to be a warrior for the LDS Church when crap hits the fan, which I believed at the time would be very soon.

Sean Dehlin [01:37:33] Like maybe the second Coming.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:37:35] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [01:37:36] And you would need to protect the church leaders or protect the church from. I mean, this is sounding like visions of glory stuff. I don't know if you've heard of that book, Visions of Glory. Okay, so just this idea that Jesus is coming, there'll be an apocalypse, and Jesus and the church will need warriors.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:37:54] Yes. And I was going to be on the front lines. Wow. You know, and. And to hearken back to a story from my mission, we had Elder Monty J. Bro.

Sean Dehlin [01:38:08] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:38:08] Come to our mission. He was one of the areas of the 70s. And. And after he had spoken to us, he was in the mission office. And on my president's wall, he had all. He had pictures of every missionary, companionship and sister companionship. There's 120 of us plastered on his wall where they're at. And I see Elder Broff in there looking at it. And I'm walking by and he's like, elder Elder, get in here. Come here, come here, come here. And I go over there and he puts his arm around me and says, look at this wall. Wouldn't you just love to be a general of this army? Wouldn't you love to be a leader of this army? And in my mind, thinking the way I do, I was like, this is a sign. Like, I'm going to be a military warrior for the church. And even on my mission, I emailed the BYU rotc. Yes. And there's a major. And I asked him, like, hey, I'm getting ready to come home from a mission, thinking about joining the military. What would you have to say about it? And I still have in my journal his letter back saying, hey, I bleed red, white and blue. But I would probably look for another profession so you could be home with their family.

Sean Dehlin [01:39:23] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:39:24] And I thought about that. Wow. So, yeah, now I'm in the Rangers. You know, I graduated R.I.P. there was like 420 applicants. I think we graduated like 48. There's three weeks of so people washed out. It's a smoke fest.

Sean Dehlin [01:39:43] Smoke fest.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:39:44] Oh yeah. They take you to a place called Coal Range.

Sean Dehlin [01:39:47] Where is that?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:39:48] It's at Fort Benning. It's out in the woods.

Sean Dehlin [01:39:50] In what state again?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:39:51] Georgia.

Sean Dehlin [01:39:52] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:39:53] They changed the name now to Fort Moore.

Sean Dehlin [01:39:55] Summer hot.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:39:57] No, this is humid. No, this is a February time frame. Oh, cold.

Sean Dehlin [01:40:01] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:40:01] Because this is after 9 11. So I was in basic when 911 hit. I was in airborne school during Thanksgiving.

Sean Dehlin [01:40:08] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:40:09] I was in Holdover and at RIP for like two months. And then finally we get our chance to go in there.

Sean Dehlin [01:40:15] What causes like 70% to wash out?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:40:20] The PT test. So you had to do like 70 push ups, 70 sit ups and run two miles and under. You had to run two miles, but then you had to run five miles in under 40 minutes. That got a lot of people, I think, just waiting. Got a lot of people. When you're sitting there thinking about stuff that got a lot of people. And then, I don't know, just standards. If you didn't get a haircut every week, they'd get you. And you're talking about young men here that on the weekends like to drink. So that got a lot of people. So I don't know. A lot of people quit when we went to cold range. You know, we'd have our rucksacks over our head and they're like, we're not stopping until I need five people quit. Five people quit. And you know when your arms fell, geez, you put your ruck down, they make you run around the circle road. They're like, we're not. You're not quit until five people quit. And every night, gosh, every night after, we do like land nav. Got a lot of people land navigation. A lot of people felt that, well, you'd be smoked from walking all day, going from point to point to point. And then at night, you know, they had this big field and the cadre would be like, it's cold out here, we need wood. Run to the wood line. You run to the wood line. And you know, there's hundreds of classes before you, so there's hardly any wood. But they're like, you better come back with a handful of wood. You couldn't find wood, you know, so we run back and they're like, oh, no. Run back and you do this all night and we're not stopping until 10 people quit. And 10 people quit. One night they brought pizza and they had pizza next to this warm tent and we're like freezing. You're not Allowed to wear anything.

Basic Training and Becoming a Ranger

Sean Dehlin [01:42:01] This is like Survivor.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:02] Well, it's actually like David Goggins. Do you know David Goggins work? Yes, I do. Yeah. Right. With the Navy seals, it's reminding me of. And there's a psychological. It's physical, but it's also deeply psychological to breaking you down.

Sean Dehlin [01:42:15] Was the pizza. If you ate it, you lost. And you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:42:18] No, no, it was very cold. They would have a fire in a warm tent and they brought out pizza. Now, mind you, we have one MRE a day, so we're already starving. And they're like, all right, if you want pizza, all you gotta do is quit. We'll put you in the water trying to lure you.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:33] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:42:33] And then they had you put your head down on the rock so you couldn't see and you could hear people left and right of you getting their stuff and walking. They put them in the tent, but they never got pizza. But, you know, and then you hear the five ton come. The five ton pickup come, and they'd throw them on there and ship them back and they'd go worldwide assignment. But every night, you know, you're out at cold range for a week, easy, 25 people quit a day.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:01] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:43:02] And they're just beating you down, just beating you down. And you're doing push ups and sit ups and just all kinds of, you know, you have a ruck over your head and you're kicking your legs.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:12] That's surprising. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:43:13] And then they're doing road marches at the same time. So you get done, they're like, all right, you got five minutes, drink water. You're going on a 12 mile road march. And you do that. And now this is the older days, you know, now it's like a six week program. They change the name and they teach you a lot more tactics. But here in the old days, no, it was just a, let's see who we can get quick because we just want hard people here. And that's why rangers have always been respected because they're known as the hardest, you know, supposed to be, but so, yeah, finally get my little tambour.

Sean Dehlin [01:43:48] And so you didn't. You made it through?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:43:50] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wanted to go to second bat, which is up in Spokane, Washington, because my wife had endometriosis. And she was told, like, you're probably never gonna have kids. And, you know, you need to make sure that if you do, you have a good doctor that can laser off the. Anyways, so I was telling the cadre, like, you kind of have a wish list. You have second bat, which is up in Fort Lewis. You have third bat, which is where regiment's at headquarters and that's Fort Benning. Or you have first bat, where I ended up going, which is in Savannah, Georgia on army airfield. Well, my order of merit was like second bat, third bat and then first bat. And everybody in my class got sent to first bat. But yeah, it was, it was a trip, man. Like Rip. Like coming from a mission, come from a life of delicacy kind of, you know, like after my mission I was in college and had a nice apartment. It was like a wake up call. Like, this is man stuff now.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:58] And literally survival.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:44:59] Yeah, you're expected to be a man. And my command sergeant Major of the program was a Latter Day Saint. And I had heard of him because Sundays you can go to church, even in basic. And I remember him coming. I'm trying to think what his name was. He's very well known in the Ranger community. I remember at graduation he pulled all of us graduates and he's like, you know, right now, right now there's Rangers in Afghanistan dying, dying. He's like, you have made a manly decision to be a Ranger at this time. And that whole time I'm like thinking of my wife, thinking, I want a family. And I'm like, man, did I make the right decision. I could die in like a month. And this. So we graduated in March. At the same time in March, the Battle of Taikugar happened. It's Roberts Ridge where a Navy SEAL team went in. A guy, Robert Randy Roberts, fell off the Chinook when he got hit by an rpg. And his. Anyways, long story short, they sent the Rangers in to rescue them. And three Rangers, right off the bat, before they even got out of the aircraft, were killed. Sergeant Cross and Specialist Anderson and Matthew Collins. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:30] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:46:31] So this is going on while I'm graduating. I'm thinking, oh man, this is a manly decision. I don't know if I'm man enough to do this. And we go to graduation. It's at this awesome place where there's like a, you know, a dagger. It's called the Ranger Graduation Memorial site. Special place on Fort Benning just for Rangers. And we're doing our whole ceremony and Sergeant Major comes over and I pull him aside. I'm like, sergeant Major, hey, I'm Larry Saint and I just want you to know there's another priesthood holder that's gonna honor the priesthood in the ranks. You know, trying to give him that little spot, Bill. And he looks at me and he goes, Good for you, son. And shook my hand and walked off, you know, trying to remember what his name was. Anyways, so that's how it started, you know, And I got sent home to go get my wife and to go to Savannah, Georgia, which was a new experience living in the South.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:31] Yeah, I bet.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:47:32] For her, who had hardly ever been out of Wyoming, it was huge.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:37] Yeah, I can imagine.

Sean Dehlin [01:47:40] So when you, I mean, obviously you've already mentioned that she was upset that you had made that decision without her. But also when you decide to go into the military, you know, two things come to my mind. One is the risk of death or, you know, injury. And then the second is being gone a lot.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:48:04] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [01:48:05] Like, so being the spouse of a commissioned military person, just that. So it's obviously even bigger when you didn't consult her. But also just, is that a lifestyle she wanted? Is that a lifestyle you wanted? Like, did you think about all that when you were making the decision of the risks to your health and safety and being away from her a lot and what that could do to the family and what that would mean for your marriage and everything? How do you process that? Or not process it.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:48:37] So let me back up real quick. A week before I joined, you go to a place called MEPs here in Salt Lake, right? The whole week before I knew I was joining, like at 2 in the morning, I'd get this pit in my stomach. It felt like an iceberg. Two in the morning, and I'd start questioning things like, you know, remembering what my mother in law said, being wishy washy. I was like, man, maybe I don't want to do this. Maybe I, you know, I'm feeling this, you know, I'm thinking about Doctrine and Covenants where it talks about, you know, you'll know by the spirit, you know, the fruits of the spirit, all that stuff. And I'm like, I don't feel good. Maybe I made a wrong choice. I'd crawl out of bed, get on my knees, I'd pray about it, and the feeling would disperse and I'd feel peace. That happened every night for five nights prior. And then the day that I was going, which was a Friday, that morning, I'm feeling it. I look over at Amy. She did not want me to join. She's not from a military family. You know, I remember telling her, like, I'm not joining. Like, I can't get rid of this pit. And she goes, ross, Ross, did you pray? And I roll over and I pray and it leaves. I'm like, okay. And then she's driving me to the MEPs down State Street. We pull over into the parking lot and I said, ah, I'm not doing this. I'm just saying I'm getting very wishy washy. I'm like, I don't think I should do this. I'm starting to get the pit feeling. And she goes, well, let's pray about it. I said, that's a good idea. And I told her, I said, how about you pray and we'll see how we feel. So we're praying together and in my mind, right before you pray, I'm thinking she doesn't want me to go. So she's going to say, I have a feeling you don't need to go. And that would be my scapegoat, you know, to be like, oh, let's not do it. Right in the middle of the prayer in that car, I just felt this moment of peace. And when we both said amen, she looked at me and said, this woman did not want me to go. My wife did not want me to go. She looked at me and said, you're doing the right thing, you need to go. Got out of the car, grabbed my bag and that's all she wrote. Five months later, that job I was working at Fl Nova, which was in the top like 50 jobs of America to work for, went bankrupt right before Christmas and didn't tell anybody. You know, my friends that worked there that I still talked to, they showed up to work one day and the doors were locked right for Christmas. Anyway. So yeah, I was like, you know, I was like, once that happened in that car, I was like, hey, this is what God wants doing it. But yeah, I had a lot of preservations. Like I know I'm going to be gone. And then after 9, 11 happened. I was like, oh boy, this is. I'm going to do my little four year stint and I'm going to get out.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:24] I have a question about if you feel like the process of basic training all the way through, kind of specialty training, you know, this idea of being manly or you know, are you man enough or do you when you talk that way, if you could describe what that meant to you, then what it meant to be a man, to be man enough to kind of. And also, do you feel like a different you was made during that process?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:52:00] Oh yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:01] And talk about that.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:52:03] That's a good question. You know, in my, my mind's eye, I'm thinking of the stripling warriors, you know, who were raised by pretty much single moms. Like I was I took a lot from that story, like the stripling warriors, Cat Moroni. To me, at the time, that was the epitome of what a man was. They would go protect the family. They were protectors of their nation, their country, all that they held sacred, you know, so for me, you know, just always having the feeling of wanting to be the protector. You know, at the time, I didn't think about this, but, you know, my sister's being raped and molested, my brother being molested in front of me and feeling helpless. You know, I just had this sense of wanting to be a protector. So for me, a man was someone that would protect people. Now I want to be protector of the church because I'm all in now. And I felt the best way for me to do that was, you know, I went to. I went to community college here. Did really good. But I just didn't feel like, you know, I was going to go in to be. I wanted to be a constitutional lawyer so I could protect the church, you know, but after, you know, after about a year, just feeling like, no, this is not my calling, I'm calling some military because I need to protect the church someday I need to protect the Prophet. It's weird.

Sean Dehlin [01:53:26] You weren't saying protect the country, protect the president, protect, you know, our government. You were saying the church.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:53:32] I felt like the church would eventually be the protector of the government where, you know, you always heard that white horse prophecy. White horse prophecy or you heard, you know, supposedly it was a tribute to Joseph. Joseph Smith, but, you know, the Constitution would hang by a thread and it would be the elders of Zion who protected it. And I was. I believe that I was here to do my part to protect it and that. And to me, that was joining special operations and going that route. So. Yes, that's to answer your question. Yeah. But during the process, yes, it was changing me.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:13] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:54:13] Like, I experienced huge cognitive dissonance. I didn't know that's what it was at the time, but I was like, how is a man a priesthood holder? How am I supposed to be a man of God and at the same time can't prepare to go to war to kill Muslims who are very religious a continent away.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:34] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:54:35] And I would always dig into the scriptures. Well, Moroni.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:38] Yes.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:54:38] And you know, doctrine chemist, where it talks about the laws of war. You know, I'd read that and, hey, my country is sending me, so that really falls on the head of my leaders.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:47] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:54:48] You know, so, you know, I want to be a stripping warrior. So I'm Going to do this, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:52] Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, too. Your mission, when you felt like you were able to read the Book of Mormon with actually greater cognitive understanding. Did you conceptualize the Book of Mormon as a work that was for you, just speaking for you. More pro war or pro peace?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:55:13] Pro defense.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:15] Pro defense. Got it.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:55:16] They were protecting the Nephites from these evil Lamanites who wanted to destroy them. So it was good to protect your family because that's what a man did in the Book of Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:26] Got it.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:55:26] A warrior. Did, you know? So, yeah, that was what fed me, and that's what I believed. You know, I'm doing my part to protect my family and this church that I feel like is going to come under attack someday.

Sean Dehlin [01:55:42] Wow, that's powerful. And it's really powerful as a Mormon story to learn how much your Christian Mormon religious beliefs informed and framed your desire to serve in the military. Yeah, that's really fascinating. Okay, so you finished all the training.

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:56:05] What happened right afterwards about my year mark for me, married. So we go to the Atlanta Temple, Georgia, and get sealed right when I get the Ranger battalion. Unfortunately, none of our family members were able to make it, so we, you know, it was just me and her. And it was a special day. She felt like. She felt the presence of her grandpa who had passed away there. And, you know, I always had a hard time at the temple. I didn't cover that part, but, yeah, I just. I never felt. It was just weird for me, you know, just weird just because I wasn't raised, you know. So, you know, it was a weird experience. I skipped over that. But so right off the bat, right off the bat, training, ba, ba, ba, ba, and I'm gone. My wife, you know, at the end of your checkbook, you had the calendar of the year. She would mark off every day that I was gone. And at the end of 2002, I was home for three weeks, but not at one time. A week here, a day there. We'd be up in Washington, training. We'd be in, you know, because we knew we were up next. First Bat Alpha Company had just come back from war from Afghanistan, and the rotation went through, which is every, like, three to four months. We knew we were going back. So my company, Bravo Company, we were doing all kinds of crazy training. Just tent opal. Yep. You know, and everyone's excited. We thought that this war wasn't going to last for very long. So everybody wanted to get what we call our scroll. Ranger regiment has a scroll. It's very famous. And if you haven't been to combat, you wear it on your left side with the Ranger tab. If you've been through combat, you get it. Wear it on the right side. So everybody was talking about their combat scroll. We gotta get over there. We gotta get our combat scroll. And commanders, you know, they use that, officers, they use that for promotion. You know, you sent your company to war, you've experienced war, you're. You can get promoted a lot faster through the system. Plus the most high speed officers try to go to Ranger Regiment because that sets them up for later on. You know, it's hard to find a general today who's not served in Ranger Regiment. That is like the stepping stone to success for the rest of your life

Sean Dehlin [01:58:27] in the army, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [01:58:28] In the army, yeah. You know, you serve at some time. PL company commander, XO and Ranger Regiment. So we tend to have like the best of the best, you know, in the army when it comes to officers. So we're just working, you know, I'm learning all kinds of cool things and having fun and blowing things up and shooting guns and parachuting and getting ready for Afghanistan. And at the same time, my wife is pregnant and I, I don't like experiencing any of that. So I don't even think about it. I'm too focused on trying to, like, I'm trying to tread water in deep water. You know, the guys that I was with at the time, I looked at my leadership like my team leader, my squad leaders, like they were gods, you know, and they walked around like it. So you're always trying to impress them and always trying to be the good Ranger, which I felt like I was. You know, I returned missionary. I was kind of squared away. I was married. I didn't live that barracks life where, you know, go out drinking and bring home chicks, you know, I, I was very clean. And so I think I, I think, you know, my, my leadership were like, this guy is, you know, you can trust him to not get in trouble. They would always laugh because I would always say fetch instead of the F word, you know, and, you know, they ended up starting to say fetch too, because they thought it was cool. So, yeah, it was a. But it was a hard life. It's a hard life, you know, and. And I remember being up at Fort Lewis, Washington at the time, and Amy thought she was having a miscarriage and there was nothing I could do. Yeah, we had a very good ward in Savannah. Still good friends with a lot of them. And to this day, we were all young Married couples that either had a child or was about to have a child. And we would have family, home, evening together as a group. I mean, we were like a military family like this. To this day, we're close to all of them. But for Amy, that was a great structure for her was to have the church while I was gone. And she was in a. A weird foreign land called the South. You know, Savannah was a rough place too. I mean, it's rough place. Yeah.

Combat Deployments and Life as a Ranger

Sean Dehlin [02:00:48] You probably remember me asking this question of the Paul brothers when I interviewed them. At the time I had interviewed them, I don't think they had been deployed yet. I think they were still in training. But because of the way I was raised, like when I think about religion in Christianity, the first thing I think of is the Ten Commandments and thou shalt not kill. And then I think about Jesus and turn the other cheek and forgive me love and walk another mile and passivist kind of peace stuff. Right. And I know that also there's the whole Book of Mormon, Captor Moroni, lots of violence. And there's also in the Old Testament, just all the genocide really, of just wiping out entire populations if God says so. So I know the scriptures themselves are fraught. So I'm not pretending like this is like an easy answer or an easy question with some sort of glib. It's a glib question. Not seeking, you know, and I'm not seeking a glib answer, but like, how do you process those polarities of like peace and don't kill and non violence that one can easily take from Christianity, the core teachings of Christianity and even parts of the Book of Mormon with the whole death and murder or killing sort of. How do you process that at the time you're going through training and then thinking about active duty?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:02:22] Yeah, that's a good question because I struggled tremendously with that. My thought processes at the time prior to deployment was, you know, God will keep me safe and he'll make sure that, you know, I'm protected and I'm just training because we'd just been attacked. And I felt at the time this was a holy war. Like we had been attacked, these guys attacked America. And this hasn't happened since December 7, 1941. 42, you know, so I felt like I was doing the right thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:58] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:02:58] And that God would keep me protected. And so I kind of compartmentalized it like that. And then I would read my scriptures where, you know, the Book of Mormon, there's a lot of war chapters in Alma. So I'd read A lot of that thinking, yeah, I'm doing what, you know, Marana would do or right, or whatever, you know, like. Yeah. So that's how. That's how I processed it at the time. But at the same time, we were so busy, I never really got time to think about it, you know, just training, training, training, training. Going to shoot houses, jumping, hitting. You know, they had this mountain house in Fort Knox, Kentucky, that we hit. And just every single night, you'd be hitting it, hitting it, hitting it. Just get everything perfect, you know, and so, so busy. I really didn't get a chance to think about it and then sense. And then I went to war. You know, I went to war, and

Sean Dehlin [02:03:55] I just want to make sure I heard that right. Are you saying that prior to going to war, you had never thought deeply about the prospect of actually the possibility of having to kill someone?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:04:05] Yeah, I never did. I, you know, I thought a lot about, you know, how I would react in war. I didn't want to let anyone down, but I just figured, like, God would keep me safe from having to kill somebody without reason. Right? Like, if I had to kill somebody, it would be for a reason. So that was kind of my. My safety net. If it does happen, I'm sure there's a reason why. So September of 2002, we deployed to Afghanistan. Mind you, I grew up during the Cold War when the Russians were fighting the Mujahideen. My dad would have the Soldier of Fortune magazine, and on the very back, it'd be like this yellow page that had, like, a silhouette of a mujahideen, and it'd say, support the freedom fighters. So as we go into Afghanistan, we go to Bagram, and when I come off that airplane and I'm seeing these Afghanis, and I'm like, whoa, this is like Rambo 2. When he goes to Afghanistan, you know, I'm like, I'm here. Plus, I'm a. You know, that's my mission. Well, prior to my mission, I loved history, but that's my mission. I mean, history books, I would just devour. I loved history. So I knew Alexander the Great, you know, that great Macedonian king, warrior, had come to Afghanistan, to Kabul, to Bagram, and built structures. And also I'm thinking, like, this is the boneyard of armies. The British were here before no one had conquered the Afghanis. And here we are. By the time I get there, special operations before me, fifth group, triple nickel, all those guys had already routed the Taliban and had almost caught Osama bin Laden up in the mountains of Tora Bora. So that was in 2001. So we had already done what I considered God's work tremendously over there. We were just there to mop everybody up and catch bin Laden. That was my mind frame. So I get there, and it was just. I loved it.

Sean Dehlin [02:06:19] Really?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:06:19] Oh, I loved it.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:20] What did you love about it?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:06:21] Just the adventure, the culture. You know, I'm thinking, you know,

Sean Dehlin [02:06:28] if

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:06:28] you've been to, like, Third World countries, they have a smell. And I'd recognize that smell in Jamaica as soon as I got off the airplane. Actually, prior to there, we stopped in Turkey as a layover. And while in Turkey, we were in some weird base, and in my journal, I had the name of it, but that smell, I was like, oh, that's a Third World smell. You know, it's. I can't explain. It's like burning garbage and, you know, different food. But anyways, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I enjoy that smell because it took me back to my mission. So in Afghanistan, I mean, I felt like Bagram was like the moon. I mean, you have, like, really soft sand that's like a foot deep. And they were like, hey, don't get off the Runway. There's still mines everywhere. Because that was the most mined country in the world. The Russians left a lot of mines. So I get there. We're living in a tent city. It's us. It's the seals. We had, like, this little special operations compound surrounded by the big army. The 10th Mountain, I believe, was there, but we had our own little special place.

Sean Dehlin [02:07:38] Are Rangers analogous to the seals? Is it fair to say that the Rangers are sort of the army version of the Navy seals or not?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:07:49] As you can imagine, there's a lot of rivalry.

Sean Dehlin [02:07:51] Yes, I know.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:07:52] We tend to think we're better. Oh, you do? Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just saying more fit, more tough. I would say more fit. More trained, though.

Sean Dehlin [02:08:01] More trained.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:08:02] I gave everyone. Those seals are fit. This is how I'm feeling at the time. Yeah. I think differently now. But, yeah, there's a rivalry where we're like, we don't like the seals. Seals don't like us. We don't like the Marines. You know, Delta Force is the best, which I still think that. Which is.

Sean Dehlin [02:08:18] Is that army is Delta Force?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:08:20] Yeah, yeah. That's the tier one small or special missions unit. I think they're the best in the

Sean Dehlin [02:08:26] world out of the army of the world. No, but I mean, they're. They're their army.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:08:30] Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yes, their Army. And then, you know, sils had their own SMU sell Team Six, which I've worked with them many times, and they're outstanding. But their White seals we would consider on par with us. But in the early days of the war, you didn't work a lot with each other. So you're looking across the chow hall at them like, nah, we're better than them, and we'll take them out, whatever. Stupid rivalry. But that's how young men, when they first go to combat, they. They think they're the best for a reason, and that's a survival mechanism. You're trained that way to think that way. So we get to Afghanistan, and then we only spent, like, a couple weeks in Bagram, but we're already hearing whispers of Iraq. This is old, too. And I'm thinking, what are we thinking about Iraq?

Sean Dehlin [02:09:29] Oh, this is before we went to war with Iraq for the second time, sort of the.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:09:34] So. So most people understand, like, you know, the process. They were. They weren't even talking about, really in Congress yet. In the army, we're already hearing that we're going to Iraq. Oh, we hadn't even caught bin Laden yet.

Sean Dehlin [02:09:46] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:09:47] So I remember thinking, well, so this

Sean Dehlin [02:09:49] is the whole weapons of mass destruction thing where George Bush and Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld all decided they wanted to invade Iraq.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:09:56] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [02:09:56] And then trumped up the. The excuse of there being nuclear weapons or whatever as a justification for overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:10:04] Correct.

Sean Dehlin [02:10:05] And you were in Afghanistan hearing that. That was the direction even before Congress had.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:10:11] We're already being told we're going to Iraq soon. This is old, too. We haven't even caught Osama Laden yet.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:18] That's interesting.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:10:19] Yeah. And so I'm there, and. But I loved Afghanistan. I felt like when I landed there, I felt like I was in a. It was a righteous. This is righteous, what I was doing. I felt in my heart like the Holy Ghost was telling me I was in. This is the right thing to do, you know? So we leave there. We go to a small former Russian base that got overran in the. In the 80s, gone. Abad, Samabad. And that was, like, Rock City. Like, it had a rock wall with parapets in the corners and then nothing inside. And the rumor was there's like 200 Russians buried underneath the ground. Like, when they. When they left Russia, the officers all flew out, the mujahideen came on the mountains around it just slaughtered everybody and buried them down there. Anyways, so we had, like, tents there. And I remember walking past this. This, like, little Bunker. And I'm looking in there, and I'm looking straight into a. At the time, they're called the Northern alliance, the Afghanis, the freedom fighters. And this guy had a long beard, a PKM machine gun, you know, you know, little Taliban head or whatever. And I'm just thinking, like, oh, like, I've been thinking about this for years. Like, this is my dream. And so I loved it, you know, And I love sleeping on the cot. I hear people complaining about, like, where we were, and. But to me, I was like, dude, dude, this is. This is what you want. This is awesome.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:47] Okay?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:11:48] And this is the early years of the war, so we didn't always have to wear body armor. We wear, like, a floppy hat and a boonie hat, and we'd go patrolling in the mountains. And, you know, coming from Wyoming, I'd, like, beat everybody up the mountain. I loved it, and. But it was beautiful. I felt like I was in Jerusalem. You know, they'd have, like, creeks that they would bring from the river and somehow have it come through town and to the base. And you see people getting water from the creek and Biblical, you know, I'd pull out my camera, take pictures. It was amazing. I loved it. We didn't get into a lot of kinetic operations. Like, not a lot of chasing the enemy. But one thing I remember from that experience was so we had to make our own latrines, our own bathrooms. And literally, it would be plywood with holes dug in them, like circles about a foot apart. And you, after you did an mre, your body would want to push it out, right? So you'd be sitting next to my squad leader, my first sergeant, just taking a dump. It was so weird, you know, like, oh, this is kind of awkward. And it was weird. But you got. You got over that pretty quick. One day we're sitting there, and my platoon at the time was qrf, which means Quick Reaction Force. If anything happens, they're going to call us to take care of it. And between the three platoons of our company, you'd rotate every other week. Well, we were crew RF at that time. And we get rocketed. I mean, like a 105 rocket. And it hit the ground from across the river and it shook the ground. I mean, it was the first time I've ever experienced something like that. I remember pulling my pants up and I'm running to the tent for cover, and it dawns on me, like, this tent's not gonna provide any protection. And they start yelling for qrf. They're like, hey, we Saw it come from across the river. So we jump in our little gun trucks and I'm a driver at the time, and we're like trying to chase these people down that we think shot it. You're never going to find them. But we crossed the river and we're driving in this dark by this time, you know, I remember sitting there thinking like, this is like. This is like biblical. You're passing these stone huts and it's the 21st century and it's just people are living by fires, you know, and we're sitting there, we pull off the road, and I'm just waiting to find out what's going on. And this man, this Afghani, walks out of this little compound, but it's on a hill, so I can see his silhouette. And he stands on this cliff and he's like, like in a prayer mode, like saying a prayer. And it was so magical. I can't explain it, but it was just like. This would be just like Aaron in, in Jerusalem's army and just calling the army. His voice was so loud and what he was saying was so poetic. But, yeah, it was cool. It was very cool. But that, that deployment, I got injured on that deployment. We, again, we were qrf, say a couple weeks later, we get this.

Sean Dehlin [02:15:07] That means again, quick response.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:15:10] Yeah, quick reaction. We had, we had everything set up outside of our tent, all of our gear set up. And about 4 in the morning, I hear my platoon sergeant screaming, everybody get up. Put your kid on. Put your kid on. We got a Chinook or MH53 coming in, which is a special operations helicopter. And like, we're donning all of our equipment, we're checking our weapons to make sure we got ammo and everything. And there's word that the SEALs had a helicopter go down. And you know, at the time, we're wearing desert camouflage, it's called DCUs. So the aircraft comes in, we have our rucks, because we don't know how long we're going to be there. We just know that something happened. So we get on this helicopter and it flies off. And I'm thinking, oh, this is it, man. No, I'm going to get into it. In my mind, I'm thinking the worst. Like, they got shot down, they were all killed. We're going to land. All we were told was it was on the Pakistani border. And at that time it was a wild, wild west. So I knew that if we flew in there, we were going to make contact. So we're flying in there and we haven't had an arm signal, it's starting to get light now. We finally get there about six in the morning and we come to a hover in this, I'm talking these canyons are if you could think of the Sierra Nevads or around here like Bryson or whatever, just like that but closer and towering, right? And I remember looking out the window and I'm thinking oh my goodness, we're in the wrong camouflage. We should be in woodland camouflage. It's green, it's like a forest area, big boulders. I'm like this is just like Utah. That's the first thing I thought was like this was just like outside of Salt Lake, big Cottonwood Canyon, that's what it reminded me of. And my team leader at the time gives the hand arm signal for fast ropes which means puts on, put on your leather gloves or you'll slide down a rope. And I'm nervous, you know I have a heavy ruck, I've never fast roped with a heavy ruck. And my team leader being a good nco, he goes first, follow me and I'm the second guy on that rope. And I look down, we're about 50ft in the air and it's a roof probably 12ft by 12ft. It's not that big but they were drying ears of corn on this roof. So I'm sliding down, I'm sliding down right before I land you're supposed to widen your steps so you can land on your feet. With my left foot netted on the ear of corn and I just feel pop in my tibia broken. I fall down, I'm trying to get up because everybody else is coming down that rope and I didn't want to be at the bottom of the, nobody wants to be at the bottom of the rope. When you got like 200 pound, you know, barrel chested American coming down, you know you're going to get crushed. So I'm like crawling out of the way and I'm thinking right away, God, heal me. Just like my first World war mission, heal me God. And about this time there's a SEAL guy up on the roof and he's like jump off the roof. They're shooting at us. Later on we found out they weren't shooting those but jumped off this roof. It was about, I'll say 9 or 10ft high on that broken leg whack. And I'm just so mad like this is my first mission, I'm going to give myself a blessing and I'm going to heal my leg. So I literally while all this commotion's going on, people jumping off the roof. I put both of my hands on my leg and I say, you know, by the authority Melchizedek priesthood, in the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to be healed. And I walk in, it's not healed. I'm like, what? That didn't work. So I'm like, God, heal me, please. This is like, I want to be a part of this.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:02] You, God, Remember the keys?

Sean Dehlin [02:19:04] Yeah, remember?

Margi Dehlin [02:19:04] You got the keys for me?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:19:06] God, if there's ever a time I need you right now. Heal my leg. And you know, everyone's starting to trickle up this mountain, so I'm like, hobbling up the mountain. And yeah, our PA was on this mission. He's. And the PA stops me. He's like, marty, what the hell is going on with you? I'm like, I don't know, I hurt my leg. He's like, well, walk back down that mountain and. Or walk back down the trail. Your leg's probably broke, man. You can't go with us. Like, I'm like, almost on the verge of tears. Like, I want to go with my boys. This is like the first time I'm really getting. Getting into combat. I'm looking down, I see a crashed helicopter in this wadi. And I'm like, nah, man. So I walked down there and the. The Pl at the time's like, marty, what's wrong? They had already caught up on the radio. Hey, we got a Ranger with a broken leg. Well, that was me. And then he's like, hey, just sit here and pull security on this bird, all right? If anyone comes up this trail, shoot him. I'm like, okay. So I'm just sitting there with the broken leg, watching this SEAL bird that had gone down, looking back on the roof. And the seals were up on the roof, just chilling. I'm like. So I'm like, point security. Like, hey, if anyone comes down this trail, I'm gonna shoot them. And. But at the same time, my leg is just throbbing. What's supposed to be a one hour mission turns into a 24 hour mission just from Ranger life, right? So overnight we stayed and I got this broken leg. And I'm like questioning things like, why didn't God heal my leg? All I ever wanted to do was be a Ranger. Why didn't he heal my leg? And I'm suffering with this broken leg all night. And morning comes and my platoon sergeant comes down, awesome guy. And he was like, hey, Marty, the seals are going to go find a landing zone. And you're going to be extracted with them to Bagram by yourself. You're going to go with these guys. I'm thinking, like, I'm a private at the time. Like, no leadership's going with me. So I'm hobbling along to the. It was like a 500 meter movement. It's like almost a half mile. We finally get to this open spot, and the Chernook comes down. We get on, and we're flying for forever. And I'm like, the Bagram's only like two hours away. I knew that because I flew here. Like, it seemed like four hours before I can land. It wasn't Bagram. We landed in Kandahar. And I'm by myself. And the seals get off. They get in their birds. They're like, hey, you need help? And I'm like, nah, I'm okay. You know, I'm a ranger. I don't want to look weak. So they take off. And I'm like, I don't even know where I'm going. So I'm like, hopping down the landing strip. Finally, an Air Force guy comes up. He's like, hey, man, you all right? I'm like, no, man, I think my leg's broke. I need a ride. So he took me to the hospital anyways. Finally get back to my unit, like a week later in the Abed, and they're like, hey, Marty, your wife's pregnant, right? I was like, yeah. And they're like, there's. There's nothing you can do here with the broken leg. We're going to send you home. And they took care of me, and I. I flew home. And December 5th, my first daughter was born. And, like, so I didn't experience the pregnancy. I did, but I didn't. But the second my daughter came out life changing, I remember thinking like, she just came from heaven. She's like, perfect. And I remember thinking, like, I'm going to make sure I can do all I can to make sure that she is raised in the church. No one will ever hurt her like they hurt like my sisters. I will protect you forever. That was my thought, you know? So when I brought her, when we brought her home, I wouldn't even let the TV on. I didn't want her to hear a bad word. That's how much I was like, we're gonna protect her. Life changing really quickly, like breaking your

Sean Dehlin [02:23:08] tibia on a ear of corn. You isn't necessarily the type of valor that you might have envisioned for yourself in your first deployment. Yeah, was that. And I'm injecting that maybe it's just. That's part of the gig. So were you, like, super disappointed or super frustrated or, you know, did you get down on yourself?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:23:30] Yeah. So there's a song by Jimi Hendrix called Castle Is Made of Sand. It's always been one of my favorite songs. So I would just think about that, you know, a little Indian war before he goes to war, dies, you know, like, in the song. I'm thinking, what are the chances of. Why would I be. Why would God do that to me? I was blaming God for just a natural human reaction at the time. I was blaming him, like, why aren't I still over there with my boys.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:55] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:23:56] Doing combat missions.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:58] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:23:59] I'm here with my wife, which turned out to be a blessing. But that was my. Yes. That was my thought process. I was like, why? Like, I felt ashamed leaving. Flying home without the boys because I broke my tibia on an ear of corn. Fast roping.

Sean Dehlin [02:24:14] Yeah. And there's a famous. And there's this famous Buddhist story. I don't know if you've heard it, about the farmer who's got a son. Have you heard the story?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:24:28] Yeah, I heard that. On second.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:30] We'll see what is good and what is.

Sean Dehlin [02:24:31] Yeah, yeah. Who knows what is good and what is bad? Because when a son breaks his leg, he's not conscripted into the army. And so at first the farmer thought his son breaking his leg was devastating, but then he realized it kept him alive. And I guess that could, you know, you being brought back from Afghanistan with a new daughter. And this is the way religion sometimes works. You could think of it as God letting you down in not allowing you to stay. Or you could think of God having helped break your leg so you could be kept safe to be there for your daughter.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:25:09] And that's how it ended up being.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:11] So that was the rewrite.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:25:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:13] About it. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:25:13] When my daughter was born. And it was like the most magical experience I ever had. Like, you know, just like my. My brain was flipped in the NPC the second she came out, it happened again. And I was like, this is a. It just changed me. Like, I need to be a dad now. Like the dad I never had. I need to be that for her. The protector.

Sean Dehlin [02:25:35] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:25:35] Yeah. So. But that's how I looked at it. Like, oh, I got. There's meaning to this. This is why I got home injured. So God wanted me to be home, to be here for that.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:45] How long were you home before you were sent back?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:25:48] I was home. I Actually had a pretty speedy recovery and I was trying out. So when you get the ranger regiment, you haven't gone through Ranger school yet. Everyone has to go through Ranger school. That's like you finally made it to the club. Well, they try out. They make all the privates try out to go to Ranger school. And whoever gets the highest PT score usually gets to go. Mind you, I just had a broken leg two months earlier. I try out and it was probably because guys were on deployment, they didn't get time to do pt. But I beat every everyone in my peer group high score, which is probably another thing I chopped up to. Well, thankfully I came home because I was able to go to the gym still with this cast on my leg and get strong while they were sucking in the mountains of Afghanistan. Anyways, I go to Ranger school and I remember the night before I left, we were praying together like we always did, and I said, please God bless me to have a, to go straight through because I don't want to get recycled.

Sean Dehlin [02:26:50] What does that mean?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:26:52] So if you fell a patrol, like two patrols, you have to do it all over again.

Sean Dehlin [02:26:56] In Ranger School?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:26:57] Yeah, that particular phase, there's three phases. There's the wood phase in Fort Benning, and there's a suck fest. The first week is just, just like our version of Hell week. You go to, you know, the sills, they do all their training. Hell week is last. Well, in Ranger school, Hell week is first, and then you still have all the training to do. That sucks.

Sean Dehlin [02:27:21] And what types of things in Hell Week? Just to give us an example.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:27:24] So we have another circle of woe there where you have to run around for hours and then do combatives to each other. And it's not to learn combatives, it's to. They beat each other up. You know, you're just getting broken down or there's hours of just sitting on a rock doing nothing. You come out here, they have this parking lot where your little platoon forms up and you're just waiting for hours for guidance. It's a mental game, you know, but they're. Or you're doing patrols all night, all night until the daytime, and you're walking like a zombie. So stuff like that, you know. And so. Well, obviously when you get there, you have to do all your physical tests. So you have to do a PT test, you have to do a 12 mile rucksack. And under a certain amount of time, you have to do a swim test, a five mile run in under 40 minutes, and then a buddy run with another guy. Under a certain amount of time, a lot of people fell that a lot. So you finally get through hell week and you get assigned to really your squad that you're going to be working with. And it was miserable. So I, I fell that phase. I do my patrols and I'm a no go for both of them, which was devastating. So I'm already thinking like, well, I've got like, usually in between phases, you have like a week to start back up. So this is putting me back four weeks. So I'm, I'm already thinking about that prayer. Like, oh, man. Well, that's not gonna happen. I get recycled in the first phase, start back up, go through the second phase in mountain phase, in the Longa, Georgia that's on the Appalachian Trail, and you're walking over the TVD every day. I fell that phase. So I'm starting to question like, why am I failing all of these patrols? Well, the second time I fell, I go into what's called the recycle barracks. And you have like these wall lockers, right? And I'm just pissy, Like, I'm just mad, like no one wants to be there. And I open up the door and I get ready to throw my bags in there, and on the wall it says Captain Moroni. Somebody had written Captain Moroni. And for me, you know, scripturosity. I'm like, well, that's a sign from God. So that helped me out a little bit. But the thing that really sent me over the edge was March 2003, the invasion of Iraq happens, and I'm a recycle in Ranger school. And mind you, I already missed that first deployment that we went on because I came home early. And now my boys get sent again and I'm a recycle. I'm hearing all these rumors, like, they're gonna jump in the bag, dad, and get their combat star. None of it happened, but they were prepped to jump in there. They would have been devastated if they did. But so, you know, it's bad not to be recycled range school and feel like a failure, but once you're feeling like a failure and an invasion's going on and you're not with your unit, it's really bad. And. And I had prayed to go straight through. That didn't happen. And I had a brand new baby at the house. So I was like, oh. And like once a year there's a thing called Best Ranger where Ranger school takes like a 68 week break to prepare for this Best Ranger competition. And you don't want to get recycled because you're going to be recycled for six weeks. Yeah, I recycled at that time, so you missed. So it's gonna be six weeks before I can even start the cycle again, which is gonna put me in Ranger school forever.

Sean Dehlin [02:31:18] And you, you, you probably said this, but I didn't totally grasp it.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:31:22] You were recycled because what, like, it could be anything. Like a patrol that you felled falling asleep on a. While you're in a leadership position getting a no go. But yeah, it just comes down to not performing to the standards that they want. It's either a go, no go task. And for two patrols, I got no go. If you get one go, you're usually good to go forward. But I couldn't understand, like, am I. I just had the worst luck on both of my patrols.

Sean Dehlin [02:31:55] So it's for falling asleep?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:31:57] No, my first one, I was a platoon sergeant. We were doing a raid. We were like, hitting this compound. And one of my signals for we have, like, machine guns to shift their fire. Shooting blank rounds was to. It's called a star cluster. It's this pipe that has a, for lack of a pyrotechnic inside, for lack of a better word, you hit the bottom of it and it shoots this firework across the sky. And that's a signal for, you know, we're doing like an L shaped ambush. If my machine guns are here, then we come across this way. Well, as you're going across, you send off that pyrotechnic and that's a signal for these guys to shift their fire. So we're not shooting our own guys as we come across. Well, my guys start going, and I'm freaking out. I'm like, I need to shift fire. So I take out this cluster, this munition, and I hit it. And it goes straight to a tree and starts to chill on fire. And, like, the support by fire never got the signal. So we, you know, killed our own guys. Yeah, I felt that patrol and then the second one. I can't remember why I thought I should have passed.

Sean Dehlin [02:33:06] Oh, that makes sense.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:33:07] Well, after that, I go straight through. Right. And then I graduate. But yeah, it was.

Sean Dehlin [02:33:10] So you did graduate.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:33:11] Oh, yeah, yeah, I graduated.

Sean Dehlin [02:33:12] But you missed that deployment and you missed it took longer than you wanted.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:33:18] Yeah. If you quit Ranger school, you get kicked out of regular regiment and nobody wants to get kicked out of Ranger regiment.

Sean Dehlin [02:33:24] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:33:25] So.

Sean Dehlin [02:33:25] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:33:26] So knowing this, knowing that, as soon as I get home, I'm going to Iraq. Sorry. I knew we were leaving in August. My graduation date was the 8th of August. So I knew, like, I missed all this time with my wife and my kids. And then when I get back, I'm going to war again.

Sean Dehlin [02:33:47] Yeah, that's. I mean, that's that. That element of military sacrifice where you're just away, both for your wife and kid and for you. I just, you know, if I'm gone a couple days or a week or, you know, heaven forbid, a couple weeks, that's a big sacrifice for our family. And it's hard. It takes time to recover, so months. I just can't even imagine.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:34:09] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [02:34:12] Yeah. Wow. So you did go back to Iraq. Yep.

Experiences in Iraq and the Realities of War

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:34:17] So on this deployment, you know, I

Sean Dehlin [02:34:19] told you, I say back to Iraq. You went to Iraq?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:34:21] Yeah. When I went to Afghanistan, I felt like this. What I would have considered the spirit at the time. As soon as I get into Iraq, it was a spirit of darkness. And without going into a lot of detail, we did a lot of things that I got questioned. Like, we would roll people up in a big. You know, they'd be shooting guns. We roll everybody up, take them to our secret compound. Come to find out, it'd be a wedding. And in, you know, Arab culture, to celebrate, they would shoot guns in the air. Well, we're taking everybody. You know, the brides, you know, everybody. And we're like, we're gonna interrogate these guys. And so a lot of things were happening where I was, like, starting to question, like, ethics. The ethics of it, you know, one time. So in the compound we were at, it's called the mss, it was, like, six different buildings. Used to be, like, Saddam's palaces. And it was at the time, it was U.S. red Task Force Red, the Rangers. Then it was like the sas, and then there was the CIA. And then we had the Delta boys down at the end because they never deployed without one of the Ranger battalions to be their security in the early days. Well, I don't know who had caught these three guys, but the CIA had them. And they were having the Rangers, US Go over there and just provide security to make sure, like, we didn't have a infrastructure to lock him into a room, so we had to watch him. And I was with two of my Ranger buddies, and we get in there. It's like, December time frame. It was, like, towards the end of my deployment. And the windows are open. It's cold. We had these guys naked on their knees, like, sitting up on their knees. And right away, I'm like, just feeling, like, compassion. But at the same time, I'm like, I'm a ranger. I can't. You know, these guys probably blew people up. I didn't know that, but that's what. I'm trying to justify this in my head. Like, oh, if the CIA wrote these guys up, then they're probably bad. And my two buddies, man, like, one was called Shrek for a reason. He comes over and just kicks one of them right in the face. And, like, we're like. They're like, beating these guys on the ground. Like their arms are tired. They've already pissed themselves. And, like, right in the middle of it, I'm like, stop, stop, stop, dude, just leave them alone. You know, we sitting back up, and they're like, dude, what's your problem? I'm like, dude, first of all, if they knew we were doing this, we'd probably get in trouble. The CIA never told us to do this. It was just us physically hurting these guys. So, you know, we get through with that. And I'm just looking at these guys like, these guys are like somebody's dad. They might have a young daughter like I have, and probably religious like I am. And, you know, they're crying, they're shaking, they're pissing themselves, shitting themselves, you know, and it was just that whole deployment was a lot of stuff like that. You know, just like this is before the whole Aubrey Garb prison scandal, which was going on at the same time. The news just didn't break until we got. We got home. But I've been to that prison. We've dropped off many hostages there. So I knew exactly where I was at. But, you know, that was going on. We were doing raids where. And we'd go into a house of, you know, have a family, and nobody's being, like, mean to the family. We're just doing our mission. But you see, like, small girls, kids crying because sometimes we take their dad away because he was a legit bad guy. We had intel on him, but just that whole experience of, like, a daughter trying to grab the dad, and we're like, get over here. Like, this guy's a bad guy. We're going to take care of him. Stuff like that. It was just for a young kid who had just got home from a mission a few years back. I struggled with it a lot, and I started questioning. That was like the first time I started questioning God's love.

Sean Dehlin [02:38:55] You questioned God's love?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:38:56] Yeah, because you would see. Now, this is after the shock and awe. We're right in there, right after the shock and all. And then you see, like, blowing up government Buildings, sewage in the street. Little kids out there just starving, you know, not really starving, but, you know, they're not getting the food that your kids are getting, our kids are getting. And just you'd see. Be driving down the road and see dead bodies, you know, like the sectarian violence. They were killing each other. Two different. I mean, they're. It's a religion of Islam, but the two different sects, Sunni and Shia, are killing each other.

Sean Dehlin [02:39:34] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:39:35] You know, and so that was the first time I was thrown in an area where I'm like, where's God's love here? You know, and then you see all these other religions. Baghdad. Not anymore, but at the time, there's a lot of Christian churches there. People don't know that. There are a ton of Christian churches. ISIS took care of that. But so I would, like, question, like, my first time out of Mormonism. There's other religions here. I'm sure God loves these Christians, these Muslims. Why are we killing each other? And my default answer would always be, well, it's not God. It's man killing man. But at the same time, I was like, can we think of a better plan? Like, then this. This is not the plan of happiness. This is part of killing each other. But I would suppress those feelings. Suppress those feelings. I remember writing in my journal one night, like, you know, I drew a picture of a mosque and just remember talking about, like, the difference between. I was talking a lot of Islam and Muhammad and how it was very similar to Joseph Smith and he compared himself to Muhammad. Yeah. And in 1980, the first presidency came out with a letter saying, like, the religion of Islam was an inspired religion because it took area that had multiple gods and brought them to a belief into a one singular God. So I remember reading that from the first presidency in 19. I read it at the time, but it was from 1980. But I'm struggling. Like, what is this thing called love? We're killing each other. We're beating people in rooms that are pissing themselves, like, struggling. One night, we get this mission to go raid the whore of Baghdad, this whorehouse in Baghdad. And we're Rangers. We're pulling security for the Delta boys, for the D boys that we called them at the time.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:38] Who are the Delta boys?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:41:39] Just to be clear, Delta force, the tier one unit. Got it main, like, 70% of delta force is Rangers.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:46] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:41:48] So a lot of my peers would, like, go select for Delta Force.

Sean Dehlin [02:41:51] It's like Navy seals, but on land. But he would say even better in terms of their elite kind of the

Margi Dehlin [02:41:57] best you have, is that the best for America? Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:42:02] Not just a branch David Goggins trust. Tried out to be a cag. A Delta Force guy.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:07] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:42:07] And didn't make it.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:08] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:42:09] So. And he was a SEAL when he tried out for them.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:12] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:42:12] So that, you know, you never hear Delta Force trying out for SEALs. Yeah, but a lot of SEALs and Marines try out for Delta Force. They are the premier counterterrorist unit for the United States. I know there's a lot of seals probably like, oh, what is he talking about? You know, like. But. But it's the truth. They are the best.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:31] And to be clear, your job is to protect them.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:42:35] At the time, we were pointing security so they could do their work.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:37] Got it.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:42:38] In the early days of the war, we provided all their security. Later on, we started doing our own. So we go in to do a raid. The horror Baghdad. And at the time, I'm on a gun team, meaning I'm like one of the machine gunners. But with our vehicles, we had too many. So my job was to sit down. So if we can imagine a Humvee has a hatchback, what we would do is we would take off that door to the hatchback and we would build a bench to sit on. Excuse me. And we would pull security. We would call it six o' clock security from there. So we took all these Humvees in there, we hit this whorehouse, which they said was a whorehouse. I don't know if it was, but. And they bring out this old lady. Like, when I think of a horrible Baghdad, you know, in my mind I'm thinking, like, a beautiful prostitute. This lady was, like, old, and she's in there all black pajamas. And I'm like, I wonder where they're gonna put her, you know? Well, they put her in my Humvee right behind my bench. And I had my buddy up there point. He's on the machine gun, jb. And so we get everything. They give me a whole bag of, like, all the stuff they took out of the house, and I'm like, rifling through it, and there's pictures of, like, Saddam with this before Saddam got caught with school kids. And I'm reaching in there and there's like hundred dollars rolled in bills, right? And I'm thinking, dude, I could put this in my pocket and nobody would ever know. And then I'm like, no, that's not right. You know, but I'm hearing these fellas like, you know, there's like diamonds in this bag. I'm like, I could put one in my pocket. No one would ever know. So anyways, we get back on Route Irish. We're heading back to what we call Biop, Baghdad International Airport with our prisoner. And she's just crying, just crying. And I kept getting this feeling to reach behind me and pat her on the head and say, it'll be okay. And I'd get ready to turn around and I'd be like, no, no, that'd probably scare her. And then I'd do it again. Be like, no, no. And I'm like, fighting this feeling to pat her on the back of the head. It sounds crazy, but we get to the interrogation spot and we pull her out and we give her to. We had a female interrogator. She was like National Guard, but she took this Gert lady and threw her up against the wall. Just whack. And starts patting her head and she's like, I thought so. And out of the back of her hair she pulled out like a strip that had the biggest diamonds I've ever seen on it. And I remember thinking, oh, if I would have patted her head, I would have found that crazy. But, yeah, I don't know what happened after that. Yeah, it's where, you know, we'd bring in, like, I don't know, we'd go on like two or three missions a night. And not to make this a long story, but this is the last story I'll tell. We were going to do a hit in a place called Samara. And my wife had just. This is the time that we were emailing each other because we can't really talk on the sat phone. And she had emailed me that she was pregnant and I was like, oh, wow. So that same night, you know, she. No, I'm sorry. I had known before I left that she was pregnant, but this was the time that she knew what she wanted to call our baby because I called her first one, Mikayla. She came up with Madison. So in my head I'm thinking of, well, we'll grab another daughter named Madison and we're going to do a hit in Samarra. Samara is a place that kicked off the sectarian virus. There used to be a golden dome there that the Sunnis blew up. Anyways, they blow it up like a year after I left. But we go in there and right before we get to Samara, there's a little base. And as we're passing, as we're getting ready to go to the base, there's just blown up vehicles after blown up vehicles. After blown up vehicles, vehicles that had been like IED or RPG'd. Now this is before Fallujah. Before Fallujah, the hot spot was Samarra. So we did a lot of missions in Samara. Well, to get to Samarra you had to cross a bridge. It's just one bridge into the city and units would get hit there all the time. And it has lights. We're going at like 2 in the morning. So we stop at this little combat outpost, we go do our final rock drill, which our final. We're gonna talk through the plan again. And I'm an E4 at this time, like a tab D4, which you're in the club by now and I'm looking at all my leadership and I noticed one thing that I'd never seen before. Fear. It was the first time I like felt fear from grown men, men I considered warriors. Like everybody was. We thought we were like, crap, it's going to hit the Fed. You know, we passed all those blown up vehicles. Well, I'm on the first vehicle to go in this town. I'm like. And I'm a, I'm a machine gunner. So I'm on top of the fifth cow and I'm thinking, dude, I know how an ambush works. You either hit the first vehicle and the last one, trap everybody in and just. I've been through Ranger school, I know about ambush. And I'm thinking about this email, thinking about Mikayla and I'm like, this girl's never, my new daughter's never going to know her dad. And all these guys are like feeling fear. I remember trying to pray, like, God, give me the courage, please just give me courage. And it helped a little bit. We're rolling into Samara, not one round goes off. The mission went perfectly. We grabbed our little HVT high value target, throw them in the vehicle and left. But that feeling of fear, like deep gripping fear. It's the first time I felt it, probably the only time I've ever felt it, but it was like real. And it was the first time I really, really questioned what are we doing here? What are we doing here? Stom hadn't been caught yet. What are we doing? Like guys are getting blown up every day. My ranger school buddy, like he was my partner, Andrew Chris was blown up just two months before in his Humvee. Like this is a guy I sat with every day, ate food, sucked in the rain, sucked. Walking that night with just blown up. I was recycled. He wasn't. He went forward. He was in third bat he gets blown up, right? And so I'm like questioning everything, like, what the hell is this world for? Why are we killing people here? You know, we'd already done a couple raids where we'd taken care of people, I'll just put it that way. And so I've already experienced, you know, like killing people, but it was never up close. It was always like we were shooting into buildings, and afterwards we'd see pictures of the damage done. We had a lot of Syrians in our area. We were just wiping them out. Raids every night.

Sean Dehlin [02:50:18] Anyways, when I used to talk to my stepdad about being a bomber, he would always say, I bombed trains, I bombed buildings, I didn't kill people. But he knew people were dying. But just in his mind, he couldn't think of it as dropping a bomb on people. He had to distance. Distance himself from the killing. And that distance was what allowed him

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:50:42] to live, I guess, function, compartmentalize it and go on. Yeah, yeah. So that, that deployment gets done and I'm just like, kind of over it.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:55] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:50:56] My reenlistment's coming up and I'm like, dude, I gotta leave this place.

Sean Dehlin [02:51:02] Like, because you met your commitment of what, four years or whatever.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:51:05] It was like that one was a three year one.

Sean Dehlin [02:51:07] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:51:08] And so I'm thinking, like, I want to reenlist and go. Go somewhere else where I can get to know my family kind of recenter my soul and focus on God. And so I reenlist to go to 5th RTB Ranger School, to be an instructor in the mountain phase. And then right before we leave, we catch Saddam's doctor, who ended up telling us where Saddam was. Well, as we're coming back with that doctor, back in the day, the 50 cows didn't have a safety on them. And I'm getting ready to unload my 50 cow and I fire a round. It's called an ND and it's like a huge ordeal. Like nobody was hurt, but you know, if you fire, if you have an ND Ranger regiment, you're done. You have to go somewhere else. So ND stands for Negligent Discharge.

Sean Dehlin [02:52:01] Yeah. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:52:03] And I'm like, oh, crap. But thankfully, I'd already reenlisted. And my leadership generally liked me. You know, they tried to protect me as much as they could, try to communicate, give me overhead from up top. They have to report it, but they're like, this dude's a good dude, man. We'd like to keep him, but there's standards. And I broke that standard. And they're like, no, he's got to go. So what they did, usually they call it RFS Ranger Failure to Meet Standards. They didn't RFS me. They said, since you're reenlisted, we're just gonna let you go. Which was like a big. Like, they did me a solid, so I gotta just go to my next unit that I wanted to go to anyways. Wow. So I get up there, I eventually become a Ranger instructor, have a. Another child, and it was. It was a good time to. To have my family. Oh, I'm skipping the part. Yeah. We cop Saddam, we bring him to our compound. Wait, we meaning the Americans?

Sean Dehlin [02:53:07] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:53:08] My. My platoon wasn't on that mission. Rangers were as Delta Force that caught him. Rangers were providing security along with 4th ID and so we're sitting there one night, we're getting ready to go. It's like, go home. Our deployment's almost done. Squad leader comes in there, grab your stuff, get your stuff on. Go man the gates. And we're like, what the heck? He's like, oh, man, the gates, you know? And at Baghdad International Airport, by this time, thousands of people are there, all kinds of units. Americans, foreign. But our little special operations compound was right near the flight line, so we could, like, get on planes real quick and do our job.

Sean Dehlin [02:53:47] Well.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:53:48] I'm like, why are we manning. We're inside of a compound. Inside of a compound, inside of a compound. Why are we doing gate guard. And I run out there, and I see, like, six black Suburbans coming through. And I'm like, oh, you don't have to tell me. I know who this is. And on the very last one, the lights were on inside the cab, And I see Mr. Saddam Hussein. And I'm just like, we caught. He was known as number one because he was the first one on the list that we wanted to get. And me and my buddies are looking at each other, and we're like, we caught number one. And right then, like, any forms of communication, it was blackout for, like, a whole week. But, yeah, US Rangers were in charge of watching him in his cell. So I saw Saddam many, many times.

Sean Dehlin [02:54:41] Really?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:54:41] Yep. Have a picture of him going. Like, they would bring him out of this little building not much bigger than this room, and he would have to use the latrine outside, like the porter John. And I don't know if they did that because they legitimately didn't want him to use the bathroom or as a way of saying, hey, we're taking your power away. You actually have to use a porter. Job. But either way, I see them all the time. And, you know, it's so surreal, you know, because, you know, in sixth grade was the first Operation Iraqi Freedom or whatever. And, you know, I was a wrestler in middle school. And now here I am looking at Saddam Hussein. It was crazy. It was so crazy. But, yeah, they ended up hanging him, right? Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [02:55:28] Were you there when I was ri.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:55:31] Up at Mountain Face when that happened? Yeah, I watched it very intently. This is going to be weird to say. I don't know if. Unless you've been there, people might not understand this. But, you know, after a while, we started understanding why Saddam was the way he was. I mean. I mean, he was an evil man. Man. He kept that region in check. And years later, when ISIS comes to power, it's because a strong man like Saddam wasn't there. And that void created something else, created something worse.

Sean Dehlin [02:56:10] I remember being taught in American Heritage at BYU that there's something worse than tyranny, and that's anarchy.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:56:18] Anarchy.

Sean Dehlin [02:56:19] Or, you know, other things in between. Right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:56:22] Yeah. And now.

Sean Dehlin [02:56:23] And.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:56:24] Yeah, but that whole deployment, I felt like evil the whole time. Like I could feel evil. Like, this isn't. Oh, this is. Right. It was weird. It was weird.

Loss of Close Friends and Family

Margi Dehlin [02:56:34] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:56:35] So I get to Dahlonega, Georgia, and you ever heard that, that. That game like Two Degrees of Kevin Bacon?

Sean Dehlin [02:56:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:56:45] Well, we have that here with Mormon stories. My best friend in Dahlonega. You guys interviewed the Dashleys? The husband, his wife. Her dad is legitimately one of my best friends.

Sean Dehlin [02:56:58] Oh, fun.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:56:59] So Ashley's his wife. I just got off the phone, talked to him not too long ago. But so I get there, her dad's the bishop, and I'm in the young men's presidency, and we're like best friends, you know, he's from Montana, I'm a Wyoming boy. We're both from the south, so obviously we're. And I loved my time in Dahlonega, but, you know, I've heard it a lot on this show. There's always a trigger, usually, that sends you down that hole of questioning things. And while I was there, my brother was back in prison, but he got caught up on. He went to prison for something he had done, like a drug deal that he had done years earlier. But under the Bush administration, under their. I figured what they call it, police

Sean Dehlin [02:57:49] trucks and route, or it was something

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:57:51] like that, where someone could report you for doing something.

Sean Dehlin [02:57:55] Drug war kind of stuff.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:57:56] Yeah, well, we live on the i80 corridor. He used to take drugs to Salt Lake all the Time for the Mexican cartel was. That was a former life. When he had gotten out, he had changed his life. He'd gotten married, and he was getting ready to. They were working to get married in the temple. He's working in Cheyenne, Wyoming. And the feds come get him, like, right for Christmas, right before Saddam got caught and hauled him to prison. Anyways, I say that because I was struggling with. With everything with him, you know, getting his life set. And how'd God let you know I'm blaming God for all this? How'd God let him go to prison? Well, he ends up getting killed in prison, which is a horrible, horrible experience. I mean, we were so very close.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:44] Oh, I'm so sorry.

Ross "Marty" Martin [02:58:46] And I was walking ranger students, and where I'm at in the mountains, there's no cell phone coverage. So over the radio, my first sergeant's like, hey, Marty, your wife's trying to call you. You need to go somewhere where you can call home. So my first thought was, something happened to one of my babies. My wife never calls at work, never unless there's an emergency. So I'm, like, running up mountains. I'm, like, leaving ranger student, and I'm running up the mountains trying to find service, and I finally link up with a driver that came to get me. And I called, and I'm like, like, honey, what's wrong? What happened? Kids okay? She's like, yeah, kids are okay, but your brother's dead. And, dude, like, you know, all the memories came back from. I don't know if he was murdered. We still don't know if it was murder, if it was suicide. He was two weeks from coming home, and it was crushing, right? But at this time, I'm a true believer. And at the time, we thought it was suicide. Well, belief in the church at that time, at least the way I was raised, was if you kill yourself, you go to hell. You murder yourself. So I'm struggling with his death, and I'm thinking, like, he got the short end of the stick growing up. I wasn't there to protect him. And so for the first time in my life, I'm mad at God. Like, mad to the point where I'm. First time in my life, I'm not praying because I'm trying to, like, understand all this, you know, and, you know, for people that have had. I guess death is different for everyone. Like, when you love someone. For me, the times it hits hard are like the quiet times at night or early in the morning, and it just hits you, you know? So I was struggling with his death, big time. And, you know, just knowing the secret that me and him knew that I didn't tell my family till after his funeral. But so, man, I told. So

Sean Dehlin [03:01:00] around what year did your brother pass away?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:01:02] It was 2006.

Sean Dehlin [03:01:05] Okay. I'm so sorry.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:01:07] Dunked though. It was March 2006. So we come home and have the funeral at the ward. You know, so thankful for the ward and relief society's there, 100%. Made dinner. And, you know, I said the prayer at my brother's grave, and I'm in my uniform, tambour everything, and. I'm, like, questioning things big time. And at the same time, my wife was having, like, just a lot of thoughts about the afterlife. So she was reading books about the afterlife written by LDS authors. And one book was this guy in Idaho had had an afterlife experience where he. He saw hell, I guess, for part of his journey. And it was like the worst thing ever. People welling their teeth. And I'm thinking, is that where my brother is? Like, I'm like, mad. And one night it's like, you know, I'd go to the gym, we had a gym on base, and I'd be working out, and I'd just go into a rage, just mad about life, everything. I'm probably still, you know, working through issues on these deployments. And I'm just, like, almost on the point where I'm having a mental breakdown. You know, the Ranger community, the army in general, is not a lot of sympathy, you know, so you. It's not like you come back from something like that and you talk things through, you know, hey, get to work. Hey, sorry, what happened. Get to work.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:48] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:02:49] Which is, you know, probably the right thing to do for a job, you know, some work with Ranger students. So I'm not, like, digesting everything that I'm thinking about. One night, like, my wife had been going to the temple in Atlanta a lot, trying to deal with this, like, afterlife stuff. Well, I'm like, I'm going to try praying. It's been like a month. I'm just pissed, and I'm going to pray. I get on my side of the bed, I'm kneeling, and I remember distinctly praying to God, saying, if I've ever done anything good in my life, anything, my mission, being a good dad, just let me know my brother is okay. Well, unbeknownst to me, my wife was on the other side of the bed praying, saying, God, please give me an experience where I know that not be afraid of the afterlife, pretty much. And she wakes me up bawling at like 5 in the morning. Like, what in the world's going on, honey? And you know, my wife is not very emotional, but she can't even talk. She's like choking so bad. Like, what's going on? You know. And not to get into much detail, it's kind of her story, but she had had a very spirit like, spiritual experience where she met my brother. He had like a full head of hair. He was always like self conscious about being bald. And she just kept saying he looked gorgeous and that he gave her. It wasn't a hug. He embraced her. She said she felt love that she had never felt before. And he says, I have a message for you to tell my brother. Just tell him I'm doing okay. So when she woke up from this dream, she's like, oh, that's so amazing. I'm gonna write down, you know, she woke up at like 4 in the morning. I'll write it down at 6. And then she heard her voice say, no, write this down now. So she wrote down the dream. That's when she like just broke in. Anyways, I taught her that story because that's what I needed to hear at the time. Like, that was an answer to my prayer at the time. I was looking at like, oh, she was going through the temple. She was doing all the right things. I wish my brother would have came to me, but at least it came to her. And it was really a comfort for my whole family. Like, that morning I went and ran 10 miles. I was just on a high, like, you know, like, it rejuvenated me, you know, being a lover of history. And I was like, I'm jumping in. You know, I was already active. You know, I was already young men's president. But I'm jumping in big time. I'm going to get out of the service. I'm going to become like, I want to be an institute teacher. I want to know everything in and out. I owe everything to this church, you know. So I get online and I'm like, I want to know everything about my history. I get on Deseret books and I'm going down. And I'm like, rough stone rolling. Oh, man. I'm going to buy this book.

Sean Dehlin [03:05:52] Learned about Joseph Smith, founder of our church.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:05:55] That book changed my life. I remember getting it and I already read the whole Doctrine Covenants over the commentary. Like I was, you know, just. I'm getting ideas of getting out of the military, getting my degree, and I wanted to teach religion for the rest of my life. And man, it wasn't too long before I got into. I mean, I devoured Rough Stone Rolling. But there'd be things I'd be reading like, nah, surely that didn't happen. Like, I wasn't taught that about, you know, Penny Auger. That can't be true. I just put it on the shelf and I'd go through and I'd be like, you know, even though the author of it, Richard Bushman. Richard Bushman does it in a good light, I think he tries to cast a good light on all the questions. It wasn't a good light for me. Like, it was everything that when I was growing up, I was taught was anti Mormon. Like, I remember being on a mission asking about polygamy and I was like, oh, you know, the standard Mormon aunts were like, there's a lot of single women whose husbands are killed. So they were just, you know, that story, that line. And I'm struggling. Like, I'm struggling big time, but I'm trying to keep it under control. And then I get orders to go to Fort Bragg and I get accepted into this reconnaissance unit, Long range surveillance, which was like a dream of mine because my dad was a Ranger. Long range surveillance in Vietnam. So I'm like, dude, this is my dream. This is everything I did as a kid playing army. But at the same time, in my mind I'm like, well, let me buy. No man knows my history. And I read that and like, my world is starting to shake, you know, But I have something to think about, and that's a deployment. And at this time, I'm a leader. I have five men under me. I work on a six man reconnaissance team. I can't have time for worldly experiences. I need to focus 100% because I know we're going back to Afghanistan. This is after the Marcus Lutrell incident. He was a reconnaissance team and I was going to the same area. So we're doing our train up, we're doing our train up and we're working like dogs. I mean, there's like times where a mission, a training mission would come down and like, the commander would be like, who wants this mission? And I'd volunteer for it every time. Us, us, us. We need the training. I love doing it. And I just need to stop thinking about Mormonism. I need to work. So I'm pushing all this stuff away, right? And I really didn't think about it. I read the whole, you know, rough swing, rolling, no man knows my history. But now I need to, like, focus on my mission. Or the new mission, which is making sure my man come back safe. So we deployed. So the unit is deploying in August, but my wife is pregnant with our fourth daughter, who we end up having inside our van, which I delivered. Crazy experience. Crazy experience. Like, a year earlier, my unit had made me go to emt. I didn't want to go to emt. I hate the hospitals. And while I was doing my clinicals for emt, I had two doctors from my ward who I was very good friends with. And every night, they'd be like, marty, you want to deliver a baby? No, I'm going to work in the er. I don't want to even. I'm never going to have to worry about that stuff. No. Second night. Hey, we're doing a C section. You want to come help? Nah, nah, I'm good, man. I'll just work in the ERs, shooting, stabbings, you know, that's all I got to worry about. So we're trying to make it to the hospital. We're passing, like, Holland drop zone, and we get to Sicily. My wife's like, honey, pull over. She's. She's crowning. And I know what that means, you know, but at the time, I wasn't a good ranger. I didn't have a knife on me. I didn't have anything on me. So I'm thinking, I'm going to have to deliver this baby and, you know, bite through the cord and be a ranger and just get everything going right. So I come around, and as soon as I open up the door, our daughter Ella just shoots out like a football. And I caught her, and I'm, like, just looking at her, like, did that just happen? Did that just happen? And I'm looking at my wife, and then I remembered my ENT train. Well before that happened. As I came around the van, I'm like, I'm such an idiot. I had so many times deliver a baby at my clinical, and I turned, and now I gotta deliver a baby. So if we're viewing this, if you got any time to take medical training, take it serious. All right? Anyways, I. I'm holding this baby, and, you know, train kicks in. I follow the umbilical cord. Her placenta still in her. And I knew, like, okay, I don't have to cut anything. She's good to go. Wrap her up with my shirt, my garment. Wrapped her up in my garment for extra protection. Hold her. I don't need the protection. She does. So I'm driving to the hospital. I pass the gate. I didn't even stop. I'm like, I just delivered a baby. And I just kept going. And our baby Ella wasn't making a noise at all. My wife was making a noise. So I thought my wife was going into the shock and I thought our baby was stillborn. And I'm like screaming at God like, don't you let him. Don't you let him die. You know? And I'm freaking out. I drive to the hospital. It's like three in the morning and I drive to the front and I'm like, honey, the hospital's closed. She goes, go to the er, you idiot. It's night. Turn. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I drive to the er, run in there. And everything was perfect. Lou was perfect. And it was a crazy experience. Anyways, week after that, I joined my unit back in Afghanistan, right? And we're in Kandahar this time. And I'm like, I've been here before. Not supposed to be when I hurt my leg, but I was here. But that, that nine month rotation, that mission was an amazing experience. A because we got to do our job. We did our job a lot. But there is an experience that I think I told you guys about that just rocked my world. And it was at the end of November of 2000, 2010. I was two weeks away from going on R and R. And the only reason why I picked this time was my daughter's eight year birthday was December 5th and I was going to baptize her. So prior to even deploying, I had picked my time. Like, hey, please send me home at this time so I can baptize my daughter. Well, we're doing a lot of work with 3rd Special Forces Group at this time and 3rd Kandak. And they had asked us, they were getting ready to hit a village. And we're a small reconnaissance team, recky element. And they're like, hey, can we use you guys up in mountains to seal off the objective and take care of any squirters? Squirters are people, bad guys that are running through the back of the village trying to hide up in the mountains. We call them squirters. And we're like, yeah, you know, we'll send three teams. But the most dangerous area of my company commander was like, we want Marty's team there, Team one. And I felt pride in that because this mission was actually given the second platoon. We were first platoon. So he's using two reconnaissance teams from second platoon. But he specifically asked for my reconnaissance team from 1st Platoon. So we got the, like, most dangerous part of it, you know, I took that as a badge of honor. And the night before going in, we're prepping everything, and it's weird. I don't know. John, you're a psychologist, right? Maybe you can explain this. But, like, I can understand why there's serial killers. Like, I can understand why people go out and kill. Because when you have killed people in combat, you almost get what's called, like, a God power. Like, you've taken a life. And it's really weird when that happens. Like, especially when they're bad guys. Like, you get good at it and you start thinking, like, better ways of killing bad guys, like more complex ambushes, right? And we were, you know, at this time, we were doing the Lord's work. Came out of mind, doing our job. And on this mission, you know, you lay. I have a ritual. Like, I've studied a lot of crime, and I know, like, serial killers usually have a ritual, but there's not. At least in my experience, there's a thin line between that and, you know, before, at least for me, going on a combat mission, we would lay out. Every time I'd lay out my gear, I specifically cleaned each bullet. I cleaned my magazine, and I'd take those clean bullets and put them in the magazine. Like, I had a ritual before we went out and we went hunting, as we call it. So I just completed my ritual. I briefed my team. Hey, this is the final mission. We're doing our final rock drill. I'm the team leader of the six man recce element, and we're waiting at the helicopter pad, and it's freezing. It's like freezing in Afghanistan. And, you know, I told my men, hey, don't carry a lot of us call it snivel gear, because we're walking at night, and the last thing you want to do is become a heat stroke in the wintertime because when you carry a lot of weight, you sweat and anyways, he'll become a heat stroke. And a lot of my guys at the time were drinking energy drinks, which I knew was not good, you know. Anyways, so the bird finally shows up, and I'm like, I can't wait to get inside that bird and where it's gonna be warm. Helicopter, you know, so we get on the helicopter, they shut the doors, and I look over, and they had punched out the windows in this helicopter. So if you can imagine, like, flying at night when it's already freezing at like 7,000ft or 4,000ft and just freezing.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:23] No, warm for you nothing.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:16:24] Like we're getting into like hyperthermic state right now. Like we gotta land so we can start walking. Get out of the aircraft. And I'm like walking like a chicken. Like I can barely feel my legs. Already have an 80 pound pack on. All my guys, the same thing. We land on this mountain and our job was to stop the squirters from coming off this objective. But where we were at, there's like a, it was a dried up river, dam, sun comes up. And we had already made like a video, like a hey, hunting with Marty video, right? It was kind of a thing we did. And as soon as we made the video, the element hits the village. And I had an element up on top of the hill to provide overwatch. They had a machine gun up there, they had the RTO and a leader that I trusted up there. And then I had my three man element down by the river. And we see two squirters coming over the hill. And every time there was like a helicopter, they were hide. So to my mind I'm like, oh, these are bad guys, these are bad guys. But they're on the other side of the dried up riverbed and I'm watching them come up and I have an ACOG scope on my weapon, which is a high power, like a four powered scope. And I'm watching them and I tell my guys, hey, stay here. I'm gonna run across this dried up dam, climb up that rock cropping. And I'm trying to find where they went because we lost them. So I run over there, I'm climbing up this rock and as I'm waiting for these dudes to come around the corner, I look over on the other side where I just came from, and we're at an elevated position below us there's an old man walking up. Well, I didn't know at the time there was a man walking up the trail. The roe was if you felt rules of engagement, if you felt danger, you were allowed to engage. So I'm radioing my guys like, hey, we got a squirter below you. Do you see him? And they're looking for him. But where they're at, and even up on the hill, the way the rock cropping was, they couldn't see him down below. So about the time that I see him, I catch these two dudes finally coming, but I'm like, all right, I have time to engage this guy, to kill this guy before they come up here. So it was weird. I took like a yoga pose around this rock cropping And I'm watching this dude and you know, through my training, shooting stuff, when you engage a target from an elevated position, you aim low because you're expected to round to go high. And I had a suppressor on my gun, and I'm like getting tunnel vision on this guy. And I fire one round and he drops to his knees and he throws his arms up in the air like he's praying, just screaming like a prayer to God. I don't know what he's saying, but it's so loud that I'm worried that he's going to compromise my guys where we're hiding. We all had suppressors to be quiet, so I just dumped my magazine on him. Just die, die, die. You know, just like, be quiet, please die. And I got so sucked into this engagement that the two squirters came around me and they were involved in a gunfight behind me with my guys across the river. And it didn't even dawn on me. I changed my magazine. I'm like, where's that noise coming from? And I turn around and I see the other two guys and they were hiding behind this rock because they were receiving effective fire. One guy got hit from my guys and I turned around and I was able to take care of the last dude. Anyways, once everything's over, you go and you go check the bodies to make sure you take their weapons and grab any intel. Well, a story I didn't tell you was my senior year, we're all sitting around the table at my mom's house. She gets a phone call and my mom's just screaming, screaming. I'm like, mom, what happened? And she's like, semi murdered grandpa. We had a cabin. My grandpa had a cabin up in Arco, Idaho, on the Lost River. And my grandpa's name was Bob Jackson. He had taken in a begavon. And, you know, my grandpa was very generous. And this man ended up killing my grandpa in our cabin and leaving him on the banks of the Lost River. That's the whole thing anyways, you know, I'll never forget the screams of my mom through the trailer walls at night, just crying, crying. And I. I'd break up. I had a SKS rifle at the time, and I don't know why, but I would hold that like, I need to go kill this guy myself. I'm a senior in high school. I wanted to drive to Idaho. This guy had ran up into the mountains, right? So the first couple days law unfortunately couldn't find him. I wanted to go find him and I wanted to kill him, get some binges for my mom. They eventually catch this guy and we go up to the funeral and anyways, I tell that story because when I go down to search this gentleman who I had just taken care of, who I thought was an enemy guy, I'm searching him and the whole time I'm like, oh God, I don't find a weapon, please let there be a weapon. And I'm checking his pockets and I pull out this little handkerchief and it has like a sewn in flower. And right then my mind goes to my grandpa and I think, I just killed grandpa. I killed somebody's grandpa. And you know, I checked the rest of his body, turn him over. He's got blood holes, he's got holes everywhere, right? And I'm like, oh God, man. Like first off, everybody that we shot, we had to do a 156 investigation to make sure it was proper. Like this is in the Wild west. And when you work in these organizations, they're very professional and every incident that happens you have to write a report about it. So my first thought is, oh man, first of all, I killed this guy. I felt bad because he didn't have a weapon. And second of all, man, I might be going away for a while because he didn't have a weapon. And even though our ROE was in the mission brief was, hey, if you feel threatened, which I felt he was going to threaten my guys. But the whole time I'm on this rock though, before I shoot him, I'm like, I'm running through this thing like, well, maybe I don't have to kill this guy. It's a different story when you see the whites of their eyes and then you kill them. I mean, they're that close. And I'm like, I don't have to. Maybe I don't have to kill this guy. And I'm thinking, well, if he's got a suicide vest, he's going to kill my guys. I can't live with that. So that's, you know, that was a conversation I'm having as I have this guy in my ACOG right before I pull that trigger. And I'm like, no, he's a dead man. And so we took care of him, went and searched the bodies up top. They obviously had, you know, they had a bunch of IED making material. They were definitely bad guys, but the gentleman over there wasn't. Anyways, the mission keeps going on and we're there for like all day, all day. And I'm looking at this body and I'M like, man, I gotta baptize my daughter in two weeks. How is this gonna happen? Goat herd comes up, hangs out around this body, and that's when I'm like, God damn it, I just killed this goat herder. So I get back to base, I go in, tell my chain of command, and they're like, well, you gotta have to write a 156 about this. But don't worry. You know, it sounded like you had. I mean, at the time in Afghanistan, this area we were working was a hotbed of incinerancy. Just guys dying all the time, you know, My buddy Marcus was blown up by a suicide bomber. He lived, but so, you know, suicide bomber, you don't see a weapon on them. They just walk by. So I'm thinking, like, this guy could still be a bad guy just because I didn't see a weapon. Anyways, man, every night that I close my eyes to say my prayers, that's what I saw. This guy praying to God. And in my mind, he's saying, please, God, don't kill me. And here I am, just. So there is a branch in Kandahar, and I would go to church in Kandahar. It's ran by. At the time, it's the senior enlisted military guy. It didn't matter if he was Air Force, army or whatever. Well, at this time, it was an Air Force colonel. And it's not like a calling, but it's a calling the branch president. You know, if you have time, you go do this job.

Sean Dehlin [03:25:25] Anyways.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:25:26] We have a boardwalk in Kandahar. It's pretty like, you know, you got TGIF there. You have all these restaurants. It's like in the middle of war, but there's like, you know, you'd go there to go eat. Well, our church was right next to it. And I remember that Sunday, going in there, and they're singing hymns, and I just lose it. Like I'm crying, just bawling in this church. And I'm sure the service members around were like, oh, those guys probably been through something, you know? And the branch president sees me. So after service, he's like, you need to talk? Do you need to talk about something? I'm like, yeah, I'm getting ready to go home to baptize my daughter. I need to get something off my chest. So he's like, hey, why don't we meet at the chow hall later on and you can tell me what happened? So we meet at a certain chow hall in Kandahar, and it's just me and him and And I go through the whole thing and he's like, oh, man. Like, you know, you probably need to talk to somebody about this, you know, he goes, I'm not your religious, you know, authority, but I would say you could still baptize your daughter. This is just fog of war stuff, but you need to talk to somebody about this. Not like, because I was in trouble, but because he was worried about my psych. So, you know, I go home on leave and you know, where we come from in Green River, Wyoming, they have like a stake baptism every month. So I had to wait till the new year to baptize my daughter. So I have like a Sunday at church and I'm just thinking about this old man that I had smoked, you know, and every time I close my eyes, say a prayer, I can just hear him like. So I'm like questioning things about my soul at this time, like, am I going to hell? And I baptized my daughter and go back and have some more troops in contact experience in Afghanistan, but nothing like that. And you know, while I was there, they killed Osama bin Laden. That mission went on. I wasn't there, I wasn't in that unit. But we were pulling reconnaissance on the Pakistan border, my little team. And I remember watching the helicopters flying, thinking, huh, who's flying from Pakistan? Ain't they Afghanistan? Well, when we get back, we found out, hey, Saman bin Laden was killed that night. It was a pretty cool experience. But so I get home and I'm living at Bragg at this time and Bragg has a military only ward. And my temple recommend had expired while I was in Afghanistan. So I'm going in to get my temple recommend. At the time I'm executive secretary in the bishopric and I'm telling we had a great bishop. He was a good guy, really good guy. I still love him to this day. And I'm like, we're going through the questions for the temple recommend. And he's like, is there anything else you need to get off your chest? Anything you need to talk about? And I was like, yeah. And I told him what happened. He goes, you need to speak to someone in the stake presidency. I can't sign your temple recommendations. You need to talk to somebody about this. So we had set up the appointment with a member of the stake president. And at this time I'm like, I'm not sleeping at night. I'm fasting for forgiveness. I'm fasting that the stake president will tell me that, will be inspired to tell me like, hey, you're fine. Here's some direction you need in your life. The day the meeting comes up and I walk in there and I sit down and he's like, oh, you're Brother Ross Martin. I'm like, yes, sir, I am. He's like, all right, well, we're here to extend. Sorry, this was prior to me going into the executive secretary. He's like, we're here to extend the calling for you to be an executive secretary. And I'm like, well, yeah, I'll accept that. And I'm just looking at him, he's like, okay. Anything else? I'm like, yeah. I mean, the whole reason I'm here is to. I need to talk to you about something. I need help. And he's like, yeah, what do you need? And I kind of go into it. And he goes, ah, that's just fog war. This guy's never been in the military. He's like, ah, don't worry about it. You're fine, Brother Martin. And I was just like, well, I was hoping he would be inspired to say, like, I have a message for you or something. But now I was like, get to work.

Faith Struggles During and After Military Service

Sean Dehlin [03:30:06] So a message. You were hoping he would maybe channel some of God's reassurance to you or. I. I don't want. I just want to.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:30:15] Yes. Some inspiration from God. Because God had known that I was fasting for a sign that I had been forgiven or.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:22] Or something like something to meet the intensity of suffering that you were feeling. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:30:28] And I didn't know I was experiencing trauma at the time. I'm just living minute by minute. But looking back, like, I was going through, like, serious trauma, thinking that I killed my grandpa, you know, like, the man I loved. I killed someone else's grandpa. So, yeah, that's it. And served my calling. We get orders to move to Texas John State, you know, and I get. I'm serving in Fort Hood at this time. I'm a platoon sergeant.

Sean Dehlin [03:30:58] Is that San Antonio?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:00] Right outside Killeen. Okay. I'm living in Copper's Cove, though. Well, now I have some free time. I'm going to jump back into the history books. And it crashed hard.

Sean Dehlin [03:31:15] So this is about what year?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:17] 2012.

Sean Dehlin [03:31:18] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:19] And at the time, like, there was no one for me to talk to back then. I mean, you were going on, but I didn't know about Mormon stories, but really, you were about it. And so I'm, like, struggling with all these questions, like, you know, I'm going through the gambit, you know, polygamy and no Revelation in a hundred years. The first prayer. You know, all this stuff.

Sean Dehlin [03:31:45] First vision.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:46] First vision. Everything.

Sean Dehlin [03:31:49] This is pre CES letter.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:51] Well, yeah, yeah.

Sean Dehlin [03:31:52] Pre Gospel topics.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:53] Yeah, but that's coming.

Sean Dehlin [03:31:54] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:31:56] So I had to go to a senior NCO school. I'm a senior NCO at the time, which is in Fort Benning, Georgia. And I'm, like, struggling. I can't talk to my wife because I don't want anyone to think I'm an apostate. Because to me, people like that are apostates at the time. Right. And I'm serving as executive secretary and the ward mission leader. The war we were in, there wasn't a lot of people. So my wife had two callings, I had two callings. Not a big deal. But I'm struggling, like. I'm struggling big time with, like, doubts, doubts, doubts. Which is not like me. I was always the one that was stalwart, strong. So I'm thinking, okay, while I'm at Fort Benning, I'm going to go visit Ashley's dad, Ashley Pennington's dad, dear friend of mine who was the bishop in Delonga. And so one of the weekends I had, I drove up there. This is like, the only man I can talk to that I trust to this day. I trust him a lot. Anyways, we sit down, we go to dinner, and we go back to his house. I'm like, hey, I need to talk to you about some things. And his wife Trish, who I love, is there. And I'm like, but it needs to be in private. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. So we get to talking. I'm like, dude, I'm having issues, like, bro, I'm having, like, doubts like you wouldn't believe. And he's like, oh, about what? I like telling him some things and very smart guy, you know, he's got graduated byu, has a doctorate, has his own business, and he knows about certain things I'm talking about. He's like, yeah, Ross, Yeah, yeah.

Sean Dehlin [03:33:44] What were you reading at the time?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:33:46] So I'd already knocked out.

Sean Dehlin [03:33:47] No man knows my history in Bristol.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:33:49] Rural.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:49] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:33:49] And that was pretty much it. And just online. Just online stuff, you know.

Sean Dehlin [03:33:55] YouTube. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:33:56] You know, first time I found out, like, Joseph Smith had a gun in prison and all this stuff, you know. And I'm still struggling with Afghanistan. Like, why? You know, just everything. And the first thing Eric said was, I'm really surprised this coming from you. You know, you've always been like. I was like, I know, right? That's why I can't tell anybody. I don't want to let anybody down. You know, I'm struggling, but I can't talk to anybody because I think, like, you know, this is a guy that we hook up with, you know, to go on to go do his home teaching because he's the strong one to make the weak ones go. I was always that guy, you know, And I'm like, yeah, I'm just struggling, man. Like, I told him about Ryan. He already knew about Ryan's death. And. And I was like, you know, it all started. The trigger was I wanted to get back into the church. Like, not back into it, but I wanted to get, like, immersed into it. I want to know inside and out. That's why I was trying to study the history. And so I'm, like, struggling. Like, Sundays, I'm finding myself out in the desert in Texas, just praying to God on my knees, fasting. I'd fast for 24 hours because, hey, Nancy, see, it worked. I know that God's just put me through a little test, and then the answer is going to come, just like the MTC. And 24 hours would pass, and I'm like, well, maybe I need to do 48 hours. So now, mind you, I'm doing physical PT with my soldiers now. Yeah, I'm in charge of, like, 50 guys now trying to struggle with all this, you know, and not being able to talk to anybody. And so I go talk to Eric, and, you know, I loved it because he wasn't judgmental at all. You know, I remember bringing up the whole job story, like, how could that story be true? Like, how is God, like, betting with Satan over this guy? And, you know, and he starts laughing. He's like, I know it's kind of been a funny story, but I'm like, no, for reals, man. Like, the Old Testament's so weird. And I'm going story at story at story, and I'm realizing, like, he doesn't have any answers either, but he does have sympathy. And at the time, that's what I needed. Like, I need a little bit of validation. Like, yeah, things are weird, Ross, but you'll get past it. So I finally get back home, and I'm not getting past actually at this course. I go to YouTube and what did I find? Mormon stories. I remember the first story that it was a seminary teacher. I know you've had a few, but this was, like, the very first one that you interviewed him and his wife. He ended up leaving ces, and I remember watching that and just feeling validators like, oh, my gosh, is that John and Brooke McClay? They ended up getting divorced. Yeah, I think so.

Sean Dehlin [03:37:02] Yeah. He was a CES instructor in Colorado Springs, I think. Yes. Sort of the first videos we did of a couple.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:37:10] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [03:37:10] And he was fresh off his. He was. Right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:37:13] That was the very first one I watched.

Sean Dehlin [03:37:15] Yeah. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:37:16] And then the second one you were you interviewed. I want to say it was one of the Spencer W. Kimball's brothers or

Sean Dehlin [03:37:24] something, but he was son.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:37:26] He was an LDS scholar. Yeah. So that was the second one I watched. And after that, I was hooked. Like, I'm watching everything I can. You had Gregory Prince on there. You had all kinds. And I'm just like, wow. Like, there are people there that can validate this, you know? And I remember when you when one of my favorite people we had on there at the time. I don't know why I'm having so many praying farts.

Sean Dehlin [03:37:56] Oh, it's okay. I'm here for you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:37:58] It was the author that wrote the Jesus that Weeps, Terrell Givens, the God who Weeps.

Sean Dehlin [03:38:03] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:38:04] Back when he used to be interviewed on here.

Sean Dehlin [03:38:06] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:38:08] But that one, Terrell, if you're listening, brother, that helped me out a lot. That helped me out a lot. But it was at a point where I was like, okay, maybe I can make this work, but I'm just struggling with understanding where I fit into all this. And then I get home from that, and, dude, I'm just listening to as many Mormon stories as I can. Just everything, everything, everything. I listen to. To the one, the gentleman that talked about the Masonic Lodge and where the temple came from. That was a huge hit in the face. To me, my belief system is that Greg Kearney.

Sean Dehlin [03:38:46] It might have been my original episode about temple ceremony in the Messiah Lodge,

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:38:51] and I was just like, holy.

Sean Dehlin [03:38:52] That's old school.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:38:53] Yeah. I was way back there. And then I was there for the first. Who was it? The gentleman that first talked about the

Sean Dehlin [03:39:06] second anointing?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:39:07] Yes.

Sean Dehlin [03:39:08] Tom Phillips.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:39:09] Tom Phillips. You know, if I wasn't here, I'd be able to say all these things.

Sean Dehlin [03:39:13] I am the exact same way. If I have to remember something, I cannot remember it.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:39:17] So that one was just like, you know, and I'm still having, like, this crisis, but I'm still going to church. I'm still fulfilling my callings. Not talking to my wife about this at all, but, like, I'm losing it when she goes to bed, like, crying all night. Like, what is going on? Like, this is just a test. God's gonna help Me, just like you did in the mtc. I just need a. I need to fight this out like a good ranger. Two years goes by, and I'm still having my long night of the soul, and I'm still in the desert behind our house, praying every Sunday at the church, like, show me a sign, like, let me know. Finally, I get up in testimony meeting, and I talk about it. I'm, like, crying. I'm like. I'm questioning things. I need help, people. Somebody help me with this. I mean, I'm still executive secretary. And I sit down, the only thing that anyone did was pat me on the back and say, go to the temple about it. Man, I've been going to the temple. Like, that's not helping. So I just finally felt alone. I get released out of that calling just to focus on. On being a war mission leader, and I'm going on splits with missionaries, like a good war mission leader, but when they're talking about stuff, I'm like, that's not how it happened. First vision. That's not how. You know, I'm saying this in my head, and I'm not believing it, but I'm, like, giving my testimony to these people because I'm playing the role. And finally I told my wife, like, I finally told her, like. Like, I'm, like, seriously doubting all this. The next week, CES letter comes out, and I was like, I need to go to a special place to read this. You know, I remember you had talked about it and said you could read this in, like, one sitting if you want. So I'm always being the outdoor guy. I got my kayak. I had a weekend off. I went to a place called Ballora, and I'm kayaking there with this little document I don't want anyone to know. I have CES letter, and I finally find this little beach where I'm alone. And I turn on my headlamp and I go through it, and every time I'm changing the turn of the page, I'm like, it's not true. And it finally hits me. It's not true. And there in Ballora, I just felt so alone, crying. Like, this thing that I loved all my life that kept me out of trouble, I finally realized was not true. Now the second part of that is, how am I going to deal with this? In my marriage, all I've ever wanted was a Mormon family, the one I didn't have. That's all I ever wanted in life. And so I would bring things up with my wife like the old you Know how you usually start? Did you know? And it would lead to an argument every time my wife would cry. So I didn't feel that it was right of me to do that. You know, I never wanted to be the guy that took someone else's faith away. So I would just suffer in silence. We finally get orders to go back to Fort Benning to a new ward, and very first day I'm there, very first day I'm there, we had a bishop that was on top of things. Probably the most on top of things bishop I ever had. He was a convert. Awesome guy. Good friend of mine to this day. Love him. First day there. Hey, what's your records? Gave him. Our records. Had a calling. Executive secretary. This is like the third row in the third ward in a row. Six years straight that I'm like, the executive secretary.

Encountering Church History and Doubts

Margi Dehlin [03:43:09] It's a specialty.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:43:11] So, you know, with the dealers, like, what am I trying to learn here? You know? And we're having meetings, we're praying about callings, and the whole time and he's doing it right. If I had my Mormon hat on, he's doing it right. We would talk about individuals, we would gather around his table, we would pray about it, we would go around the table, like, how'd you feel? How'd you feel? And the whole time I'm like, like, dude, I didn't feel anything, but I don't want to ruin anything. I don't want to be the Martin Harris of this group. You know, they're not getting a revelation because of me. So I'm like, dealing with this the whole time. Like, man, it's me, it's me, it's me, it's me. And still struggling, still listening to more stories. Remember the very first time you interviewed an acting bishop named the one that does. Why am I having a brain fart? The rfm. And Bill. Real, real.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:04] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:04] When he was still a believer. Man, I remember that one. And that helped me out a little bit. You know, I'm like, okay. And then he started his podcast, and so now I got that. Mormon discussions. I love that. Yeah. And then. But the other one you had with Mike, LDS discussions. No, no, it was. The gentleman was a bigger guy.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:28] John Larson.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:29] No, no, he was a believer.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:32] Dan. Oh, Mormon matters. Dan Witherspoon.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:36] So Mormon stories and Mormon matters were like, my go to. Because he would try to give, like, the validation of faithful stuff. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:45] Mormonism.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:45] Because I'm still, like, trying to make it all work.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:48] Work.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:48] We were always going back and forth, me and dad.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:50] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:51] Witherspoon.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:52] Yeah. And I loved his perspective. You know, he was very intelligent, and I loved it.

Sean Dehlin [03:44:57] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:44:58] And I would use that to, like, keep going just for another week.

Sean Dehlin [03:45:01] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:45:02] To make this thing work. This mental gymnastics that I had. I already realized the church wasn't true, but maybe I'm the guy that can make this all work, you know? But, you know, when it comes to the. You know, Dan Weatherspoon talks about the five stages of faith and Fowler. Yeah. And so I would realize I could see where I was at. And I was only at stage two, where I was still getting angry with things that say over the pulpit. You know, the whole street, water crossing.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:30] Oh, that.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:45:31] You know, I'd get mad, like, that's not true. You know. You know why the guy. You know, Simon Reader left the church? Because they. I'm like, no, that's not true. And so I'd go through these, like, things in church, and I'd get mad, and, you know, well, you got excommunicated. That was one thing I was mad about before I even went to Fort. Fort Benning. I remember that whole thing. And then, yeah, just, like, I didn't believe in it, but I still wanted it to work because I don't want my kids to go to church without a dad. Like, I had to. So I was like, I'm gonna suffer, but their dad's gonna be there with them. But there's times, like, I would have to walk out because I'd just get so mad. And finally, I asked to be released out of the calling as executive secretary. And I told him I needed to talk to the stake president. Our stake president at the time was a psychiatrist for Auburn University. And so this is right after the November 15 policy. I remember exactly where I was the morning of that. I was in the deer stand hunting. And the first thing I read about that, I'm like, oh, this is just satire. This isn't real. So I spent all afternoon in the deer stand, not even thinking about deer. I'm now, like, reading everything, like, oh, my gosh, this is real. This is real. Real. And I remember posting something on Facebook, and I spent the rest of the. The day, like, arguing with friends of mine, like, true believe in Mormons. Like, arguing about this. And finally I had to get rid of my Facebook. But that crushed me. You know, that whole thing crushed me. Anyways, I have the talk with this branch with our stake president, the guy from Auburn. I'm like, telling him, like, man, I have doubts. And, like, he was like, what specific doubts? Do you have. And you know, I brought November 15th policy. And he goes, brother Martin, I want you to know that I struggle with that too, and my wife struggles with it and everything that you're saying I struggle with too. And I'm like president struggling with this.

Sean Dehlin [03:47:46] And just for the viewers and listeners who are newer to this conversation, have no idea. This was when the Mormon Church after same sex marriage was legalized in 2015, which was the same year I was excommunicated. This was the year that In November of 2015, the Mormon Church basically said that same sex marriage is an act of apostasy, worse than rape or murder or incest, and that it was grounds for immediate excommunication and that the children of same sex married couples couldn't get baptized, couldn't get confirmed, couldn't hold the priesthood. And if they wanted to become members or be in good standing once they were 18, they had to denounce their parents marriage. That was the November 2015 policy. And you're saying you didn't like that?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:48:36] Oh no, not at all.

Sean Dehlin [03:48:37] And even your stake president didn't like that. Yeah, yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:48:40] But his final answer was, at the end of the day, we have to choose faith. And you know, I bought that. You know, like for him I understood why that worked. Worked very intelligent man. And, and so for him I understood that. But for me it, it didn't work. You know, I was just like, you know, I have faith in God. I'm not having the God faith. I'm having a crisis of, I hate the word crisis of faith, but a crisis of, you know, where authority, like, like the 12, you know, at the time, I think it was President Monson, like I was like, dude, there's, this is not true. Like, you know, when you learn the story about breaking my young, how, you know, when you're, when I was growing up, you learned that like he took on the mantle right away. But when you actually read the history, it was like years later, it was like when Joseph Smith III came and said, oh, you guys are crazy, I'm going back out south, that he was like, okay, I guess I'll take over. And then, you know, when he realized the succession of the church after that, there's two year caps after he died even, and then, you know, plaguing me in the first manifesto and then, okay, we're really going to have the second manifesto because we're still doing it, you know, stuff like that. It was just, you know, I was done with the mental gymnastics. Like I couldn't do it anymore. But I was willing to give it one last shot. And you know, my wife and I, she was like, ross, just one more time, please go to the temple with me. I was like, I was still wearing my garments and I was like, okay, I'll go to temple with you. And we go to Atlanta Temple. And, you know, I'm not being open to too much, but I'm like, you know, if God really wants me here, I'm still having a belief that he'll let, like, whatever happened, happened, like an angel with a sword or whatever, a feeling or nothing. And as I'm walking out of the temple, I just hear that voice again saying, this is your answer. That same voice that I've heard all my life. And I was like, this is the answer. And I told my wife and she goes, I know, I know. And I'm fine with it when I get home. That was the last time I ever wore garments.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:06] Wow.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:51:08] And thankfully, I have a wife that very supportive. Yeah, she's still a true believer in Mormon. But, yeah, it was a crazy time. But when I took off those garments, man, I felt freedom. It was weird. Like, I felt free.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:24] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:51:25] And, yeah. But I would continue to go to church. You know, we got orders to go to Fort Bragg, where we live now, and got called into the young men's. But I would always tell them, like, I'm more than willing to work hard and do my calling, but I just don't believe. And I don't have a temple recommend. And I don't know if it's because it's a church in the south, but I've never had a problem with that. They've always been good to me. My best friends to this day are still members in the church. My leadership, my bishop, my former bishop, they all knew where I stood, never judged me, never said anything like, alice, have a counsel on Martin. Oh, they gave me callings knowing that I was no longer a believer. They gave my wife an early morning seminary calling for. For six years with me. As you know, you have to have two people knowing that Brother Martin, a non believer, would be right next to her teaching seminary. Crazy. But they're very accepting. I hear stories about people, maybe in Utah, but don't have that experience. It breaks my heart because in my mind, once you get past stages, 3, 4, 5 or 4, and you're at the point where you can hear things and you're like, well, that's not true. But one time I used to believe that too. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me anymore. I can just enjoy church with my family. Second hour, I go out to the car. I probably usually drive down the street, go get a monster, go reward myself with the milkshake. But I'm there with my family and my dear friends. But I never wanted to tell my story until I knew this day was going to come. My daughter was going to get married in the temple. Not believing I would still baptize my son. I baptized him a couple years ago. I even had a member, A good friend of mine that knew where my. My belief was asked me, like, how can you baptize him knowing that you don't believe in, like, the priesthoods? And don't you feel, like, hypocritical about that? And the only answer I could give him was, I still practice Christmas, you know, when my kids were young, knowing I didn't believe in Santa Claus anymore. But it was a tradition for our family. And at the end of the day, my son wanted me to baptize him. So I don't have a problem with that. He still believes. So to this day, I still do. You know, my wife was just recently called back into Relief Society. I put my hands on her head while the bishop gave her her set apart. Everyone knows that I don't believe.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:11] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:54:12] But they make room for me to.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:14] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:54:15] Be there for my wife.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:16] Yes.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:54:17] And I love that about my ward that I'm in now. While we're speaking right now, the ward is using our trailer for the parade, for the Christmas parade in Fayetteville. And I help them decorate it.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:31] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:54:33] Knowing that I'm not a believer.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:35] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:54:35] You know, and. And my friends who are in the church knew that their kids were safe with me teaching seminary because for them, I'd put on that Mormon hat. Except for when we got into plague me, I was. I was always honest about things, but I'm just grateful where I live now that they're so accepting of me. Knowing. Knowing where I stand in my belief system.

Sean Dehlin [03:55:06] There's kind of. I guess the way you're processing it is clearly the best way. There's two ways to think about that. One is that the church would have any cause to do any harm to you or cause any pain because you don't believe is just ridiculous, you know, so of course they're going to welcome your volunteer efforts or anything you can do to help them or support your wife who's supporting them. So, I mean, of course they're nice to you. And that's. In a way, it's good but in a way, it's bad that you would ever worry that they wouldn't be as well.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:55:58] They also know that I'm very pro lgbt, and I've brought that up in young men's. Not to a point where. So here's another 2 degrees of Kevin Bacon. You interviewed one of the men that was married here in Utah. He was on my mission. He was a former Air Force guy. I'm having a brain fart.

Sean Dehlin [03:56:22] So is this Michael and Seth?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:56:24] No, no, he came on alone, but he. He had just gotten married.

Sean Dehlin [03:56:28] Buckley Jepson.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:56:29] Nope. It's going to come to me.

Sean Dehlin [03:56:32] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:56:35] I don't know why I'm having a.

Sean Dehlin [03:56:37] No, it's okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:56:38] But, yeah, but you know, after that interview, man, like, because it wasn't until like 2012 that I really started not to be so homophobic. And I think it was because I was raised the way to think that way. Like, gay people go destroy this world, you know, and then I would listen to stories on here about people who struggled from birth. And I was always one of those people. Like, oh, people aren't, you know, in more of the manuals. I remember reading this on my mission. Like, I think it was Spencer W. Kimball might have been there to have been that said, like, to say that men are born gay is to say that God is gay because men are born in his image. So that can't happen. So that was always my go to line when people would bring up the gay issue. And then when I started listening to Mormon stories and you were to interview people who all their life had struggled, it started maybe, maybe people aren't born gay. And then I have a gay cousin and I started thinking about him. I was like, all my life, I know that he was. He ended up marrying another man. But I was like, Jake, Jake is totally gay. And I love Jake. So slowly, you know, you deconstruct other things. Yeah, yeah. Even God. It got to that point. But yeah, it leaving Mormonism helped me to be not so judgmental of not only other people, not like me, but other religions that I used to, you know, they have some truth, but they don't have all the truth. You know, I, I was one of those guys at one time and then realizing, like, dude, there's beauty in all religions if it's good.

Margi Dehlin [03:58:22] Right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:58:22] You know, but

Margi Dehlin [03:58:27] yeah, yeah. When you. Let me ask you this. When you talk about. I think you said something about wearing the Mormon hat or something. When you go, what do you mean by that?

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:58:41] So that's a. It's Kind of a military term. When we do our planning for like an operation. Part of that plan in paragraph three is you put on your enemy hat and you try to think the way they, they would so you can counter it in your mission. So when I say like I put on my Mormon hat, I want people to know like their kids are safe with me saying more of the heritage, not the history of things. Because my wife, you know, she believes and she's actually the seminary teacher, not me. So I never wanted to one violate her trust and I never wanted to violate the trust of my dear friends who had their kids come to our home for early morning seminary. So that's what I meant by I wouldn't go into the long standing details, the rabbit hole, but I would just cover like the top of it where I felt like, hey, if their parents are here, they'd be fine with me talking about it.

Margi Dehlin [03:59:39] Got it. Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [03:59:41] Where I struggled was, should I, with me being in the church and stealing the records, does that offend? Like maybe the gay population that have had so much harm done to them. That's the only part where I struggle.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:01] Like if you're supporting in some way

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:00:05] protecting them. With me staying in the church.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:08] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:00:09] And my default setting for that is, you know, my family, I just want to be with them. I, I don't want there to be any confusion and I don't want to sway their belief either. Just recently with my daughter, I said I haven't been ready to tell my story because I didn't want to affect your guys testimony. Whether you lead the church or not, I will support you 100%, but I don't want to be the one that sways it. I want you to have your own testimony in or out.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:37] I see.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:00:38] So this summer my daughter and her beautiful husband, I love him and his family so much. They had, thankfully the church came out and said you can get married first civilly and then in the temple. So they had a civil wedding first, not because of me, but a lot of his members. His parents were the only members in his family. So he's very close to his grandma and grandpa who are not members. And then knowing that I'm not either, they wanted to have a civil wedding first and the very next day get married in the temple, which they did. So but while I was outside the temple, for viewers that don't know, for you to be able to go into the temple, you have to have a temple recommend and have to have in their eyes good standing in the church, even if it's a family member, like a daughter who's getting married in the temple. Well, since I don't pay tithing and I don't have a temple recommended, I couldn't go in there with my daughter and partake of that sacred experience. In her eyes, I was regulated to the babysitter because small kids can't go in there either. So I'm out there with all like 20 kids trying to herd cats. Hey, don't, don't get in the fountain

Sean Dehlin [04:02:02] while your daughter's getting married, while she's

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:02:05] going through what in her mind is the most sacred thing that she could do. My wife's in there too, and my wife's my in laws and his parents and all of his close friends. And right there. It's probably the second time outside reading the CS letter at Ballora that I just felt like, alone. Like, this isn't right. This isn't right.

Sean Dehlin [04:02:33] And you hadn't done anything, quote, to sin, correct?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:02:36] No, no, I, I still follow the word of wisdom. Not because the church. I just think it's. I have enough vices like monsters that I just don't want to add to it, you know? But yeah, just because of a belief system, I can't. A belief system where I want to have integrity in my belief system, I'm not allowed to watch her be sealed to her husband for all time and eternity.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:01] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [04:03:02] Was that hard for you? Were you, did you come to understand

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:03:06] it and see, I understand wasn't really hard. It was kind of hurtful. Not hurtful, but for the first time in my life, I kind of understood what people feel like that aren't a part of that. Like I said, I still baptize my kids. I don't call it a priesthood blessing, but for the school year, I give a father's blessing because I believe in that. I don't say the authority of my cousin. I just say, as a loving father, I give you a blessing. But this was the first time that I wasn't involved in an ordinance that was sacred to her. And it stung a little bit when people came out of the temple. People, I don't know, looking at me like, what has this guy done that he can't even be with his daughter

Sean Dehlin [04:03:57] because they're going to assume you had committed adultery or had a porn problem or something. That's what a Mormon would think.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:04:04] That's what I would have thought when I was an active Mormon.

Sean Dehlin [04:04:06] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:04:07] So at that time, sitting there waiting for my beautiful daughter and her amazing husband to come out, that was the first time I had the thought of, maybe it's time to tell my story.

Sean Dehlin [04:04:20] How long ago was this?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:04:21] It was June of 2024 of this year.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:25] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [04:04:26] And did you try and get the stake president to let you go?

Margi Dehlin [04:04:30] No.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:04:31] I know, you know, I know what the standards are, and I didn't want to violate that at all. I have friends who completely don't believe, who chew dip, drink, smoke, and have time for working minutes in the Army.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:45] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:04:46] You know, and their validation for it is, hey, we find it okay. We still want temple readiness. We want to be a part of the family.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:53] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:04:53] And that doesn't stick right with me. It just doesn't. It's integrity violation in my book. And we'd go the rounds of trying to argue about it, like, dude, how could you do that knowing that in full faith? They're interviewing you, thinking that. And you know, the justification they gave, you know, I'll give it to them, you know, that's. That's their honor. But I couldn't do that. And I know the stake president knows what I think, so I don't want to. I don't want to put him in a jeopardizing spot either. So, you know, I take it like a man. You know, like, hey, man, this is my bed. I'd sleep in it. But it did sting a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:32] Yeah.

Sexuality, Shame, and Mormon Teachings

Sean Dehlin [04:05:35] Okay, so in your. The first topic that kind of stuck out to me in your outline, you talked about having some guilt and shame around a very normal behavior without being explicit for the, for the benefit of your, what, mother in law and your mom, you know, you felt a lot of guilt and shame as a young boy and as a young man and even as an adult man, for a behavior that's very normal for teenage boys and sometimes girls. So I just want to talk about that. Those experiences, especially in the context of you eventually going off on tour for months at a time where you're completely away from family. So start back in your. Your childhood and let's just have you tell.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:06:25] Well, actually, from an early age, I was exposed to pornography. Nerdy. It was in the house. My dad, you know, had it. And I remember. So back in the day, they used to have like, the Playboy channel on channel 14. I still remember that channel. And when I was in first grade, you know, it was the time when they turned. You actually had to sit down and turn the knob and go through the channels. Well, when I was a kid, Saturday morning for cartoons, you'd come across channel 14. And even being in, like, first grade, I just remember thinking, what is this? So I was exposed to it early in my life and I never realized what self gratification was until, like I was in high school and I was like, oh, that's what they're talking about. And at the time, you know, just experimenting as a young kid with all this emotions, and whenever I would, like, fight myself not to do it and then do it, I would feel like God hated me. Like, I remember one time walking to school in the morning in Wyoming, slipping on ice, falling, and my reasoning was, oh, God did that to punish me. Because to me, God punished you for sin. And so in high school, I struggled with self esteem because I was the only kid that did it, or at least thought I did, you know, and even though I would pray and read scriptures and fight and fight and fight not to do it, you know, when my, my dad and my stepmom were gone, I knew where the magazines were and, you know, like, I just felt so much shame for it. To the point where my only conclusion was, you know, if I castrate myself, that would fix the problem and God would no longer hate me. I didn't understand at the time that these feelings that I had were given to me. I was created that way for a reason. But to me, it was the sin of the flesh. And so I really struggled with it. Like, you know, the only time I really think I was free of it, it was probably the first six months of my mission. And then one time I had, you know, to, you know, lack of a better word, like, relieve pressure. And I tell you what, that whole week, like, I couldn't even teach properly. And I felt like I was a good teacher, but it just. The guilt consumed me, but I didn't want anyone to know. So I told a story where I came home for like a week because of my surgery. Well, I'm at the house and I'm watching King David, the one with Richard Gere. I still love that show to this day. But the part where he's watching Bathsheba and, man, I had a. I struggled that whole night. Like, we're pure, like, having. I didn't do anything. But when I got back, I was like, I need to tell Monty J. Broff because he wanted to interview the elders. And I told him about that experience. Like, hey, when I was home, I watched King David and saw some boobs. And, you know, I didn't put it that way, but. And was, you know, I was very, very erotic. But he was very kind about it, you know, I think he had the experience, to know, like, yeah, this kid's like 19 years old. It's probably normal. But to me, to me, I felt like I was going to hell.

Sean Dehlin [04:09:57] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:09:58] The sin next to murder. I was almost close to it. That's how I looked at it. Especially being a missionary. It was double the trouble. So I didn't. Honestly, John, I didn't feel like it was normal, actually, until I started listening to Natasha Barker. Okay, so.

Sean Dehlin [04:10:21] So first of all, it sounds like that impulse to want to castrate yourself.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:10:27] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [04:10:27] You lost that by what? By the time you were married and in the service. So I'm wondering how you got over that.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:10:33] So in Texas, I told you we lived in Texas.

Sean Dehlin [04:10:36] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:10:37] I remember there's a news report of like this preacher that castrated himself. And I remember thinking to myself, that is crazy. Like, why would you do that? And then I remembered, like, I've thought that many times. So I think about that time. I was like, you know what? Like, this is totally normal. My son ever does this. I'm gonna tell him, son, it's normal. But you know, in my generation, you just didn't talk to parents about that. It was like a shame thing.

Sean Dehlin [04:11:05] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:11:05] And it's not gonna be like that in my household. But. Yeah. So it wasn't until I was going through my faith crisis because part. Well, my crisis of confidence.

Sean Dehlin [04:11:15] Okay. And so wait, so not to jump too far ahead.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:11:18] So because.

Sean Dehlin [04:11:19] Because what's also sticks out for me is the fact that once you start, you know, you enlist in the military and you're going to these trainings for months at a time.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:11:32] Testosterone's pumping.

Sean Dehlin [04:11:34] And then, you know, so there's that there's the training and then there's the job itself, but then there's the. The three tours where you're away from your wife. Wife for months. Like, like, how in the world.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:11:49] What, almost years.

Sean Dehlin [04:11:51] Yeah, like, how in the world are you supposed to. Like what else are you supposed to do?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:11:56] Well, and here's the thing that people don't talk.

Sean Dehlin [04:11:58] I don't think it would be healthy to not do that.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:12:00] People don't talk about, like in combat, like the, the adrenaline, sexual saturation that you're going through in the testosterone. Plus usually on deployments you're working out twice a day.

Sean Dehlin [04:12:12] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:12:13] You know, you're taking pre workout. So I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of just passion and emotion and you know, at times it feels like you're blow up. I mean, it's just. Because if you're trying to do the Right Thing. And you, in your mind, you think it's bad. You know it's crazy. And, you know, I. This is a. You know, I had a lot of guys, like, my first deployment, you didn't have Skype. My second deployment, Skype wasn't a thing. My third deployment, Skype was a thing, which is a blessing. I got to see my family all the time, and we would have, like, family prayers over Skype, even though it was like, 3 o' clock in Wyoming during the day. But there were a lot of times, like, my teammates, like, I knew, like, because they were pretty open about that their wives would send them pictures. And in the back of my mind, I was always like, man, I wish I knew. My wife wouldn't, nor would I ask her at the time. You know, I was like, I would never do that as my wife. But in the back of my mind, I was like, oh, man, I wish that was me because it would help so much.

Sean Dehlin [04:13:23] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:13:23] But I would never, you know, I know my wife would never do that, and I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I would never ask her to do it.

Sean Dehlin [04:13:28] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:13:31] But it would have helped.

Sean Dehlin [04:13:32] Yeah. I mean, it just seems like it's inhumane for the. And I'm not trying to pick on the church here. It seems inhumane for the church to plant the idea in young men and women's minds that that's evil, especially if they're in a position where it would be probably unhealthy not to do that. So then they're carrying the burden of being away from their spouse and children, and they're carrying the burden of military service, and they're carrying the burden of this guilt and shame of feeling like a horrible person that feels just completely unnecessary and sort of unkind.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:14:16] So you asked me when did I start getting over the guilt.

Sean Dehlin [04:14:19] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:14:20] I remember, like, taking a shower one day in Texas when I was going through this whole thing.

Sean Dehlin [04:14:25] So this is after you've done.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:14:27] Yeah, this is when I was going through hardcore, like, faith crisis. Long. Neither the soul. But it was a long year, probably

Sean Dehlin [04:14:35] 10 years ago, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:14:36] Yeah, yeah. 2012. I remember being in the shower, and I'm thinking about the atonement, and then for some reason, I'm thinking about a cell phone, and I'm like, if. If Nokia at the time was our phone, if Nokia purposely made a defunct phone and then gave it to me, that would be like me asking Nokia for forgiveness for this defunct phone.

Sean Dehlin [04:15:00] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:15:00] And that's how it, like, clicked in my mind. While I'm in the shower. I mean, I wasn't doing anything, but I have, like, deep thoughts. In the shower.

Sean Dehlin [04:15:07] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:15:08] Or on the toilet and. But that was the first time in my life I was like, I was made this way, but I'm supposed to ask his forgiveness for being made the way I am.

Sean Dehlin [04:15:21] Yeah. For the way he made you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:15:22] That was the first time in my life I was like, I don't need to repent for being who I am. I mean, I think repentance is just be a better person. But that was the first time I connected cognitive wise. Like, you know, I don't have to be ashamed for being made the way I am. And that's when the guilt started going away. So having said that. Yeah. Deep into my 30s, I was still struggling with it. I would call it struggling then, but.

Sean Dehlin [04:15:51] And you said it was an interview with Natasha Helfer Parker that helped you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:15:55] Yeah. Like when you would interview her and she would talk about the healthiness of it and, you know, that was validation for me a lot, you know. So. Thank you, Natasha.

Sean Dehlin [04:16:06] Yeah, absolutely. One question I have is, you know, when you talked about enlisting, you basically framed it as doing it for the church, doing it for the Lord, for the second coming, to defend the Mormon prophets. That would be, you know, protecting the country. That would be the Constitution. That would be hanging by a thread, that sort of mentality. So that was your reason for becoming a military, Becoming a soldier. What's it like then, to have all these powerful but also traumatic life experiences, to give how many years of your life to military service?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:16:51] 21 years.

Sean Dehlin [04:16:52] 21 years of your life to military service. There's probably good and bad in that. But then to realize at the end that the entire foundation for why you chose military service turned out not to be, I could either say true or what you thought it was. What's that like?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:17:11] Couple that with our Afghanistan withdrawal.

Margi Dehlin [04:17:14] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:17:14] Which I even touch on.

Sean Dehlin [04:17:16] Can you talk about that and then. And then answer the question.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:17:19] Yeah. The withdrawal from Afghanistan, this was what Biden did recently. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [04:17:25] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:17:26] Well, such. In my opinion, I had more friends commit suicide after that than any time before.

Sean Dehlin [04:17:38] Can you explain why? So we were. When we had to take over Afghanistan,

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:17:43] I totally understand why we were leaving and I wanted to leave. I agreed with leaving because we were there.

Sean Dehlin [04:17:49] How long?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:17:50] 21 years. 20 years. But in the military, we have what's called courses of action. It's like our different plans. Plan A, B, C, D, E. You plan all these courses of action before leaving again. This is my opinion but for leaving Afghanistan, we had like 23 courses of action. Biden chose the worst one. The worst one, the Taliban was telling us we could have Kandahar, Bagram, all these airports to get people out of and that they would help us. Nah, we just need Kandahar. We have over 100,000 people there. Americans are. Anyways, it was just the way that it happened. And then all the equipment we left behind and it was a repeat. You know, my dad served in Vietnam. He hated the military. Because the way we left Vietnam.

Sean Dehlin [04:18:47] Yeah, they're like people hanging from helicopters off the exact.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:18:51] Right off Saigon in Hueys. And then what do we see? People hanging on to a C130 and falling from 1,000ft because they're trying to do everything they can to make it. The freedom. It just, you know, and then thinking about my friends who were killed there for what?

Sean Dehlin [04:19:08] When you said you had friends die by suicide because of the way we left Afghanistan, can you explain why?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:19:16] I wouldn't say, because I think it added on to it. It was a final nail in the coffin.

Sean Dehlin [04:19:20] Right. And why? What, what, what would lead someone to be more likely to die by suicide because of the way we left.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:19:30] They felt there was no meaning after all, to the way we left.

Sean Dehlin [04:19:34] It took away the purpose of why they served, to leave in that way. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:19:38] In 2011. And when I went to Afghanistan, I didn't even know what the mission was. Nobody knew why we were still in Afghanistan. Nobody. I mean, we would make up things like, oh, we're fighting the Taliban. But that's like saying we're trying to fight a political party. You know, there's times I was in Afghanistan where we'd be doing a route reconnaissance and they'd be like, you could do. You could. You could burn these poppy fields. They're Taliban, but these are General Raziks. You leave those alone. Like, our leaders are telling us that. Meaning what? Like, we don't want the Taliban to have money.

Sean Dehlin [04:20:12] Drug money.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:20:13] Drug money. But our Afghanistan warlords that we work with, oh, that's totally fine for them knowing that those drugs are going back to the States.

Margi Dehlin [04:20:21] Right, right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:20:22] But hey, because they're our allies. Don't burn that poppy field. You know, you see the corruption? We would go and do a hit and like, right before we'd go do the hit would get. Hey, you can't. That's Karzai's brother in law. But he's like a bad guy. Yeah, but that's Karzai's brother in law, so leave him Alone. And you know, it just got crazy. Like we would roll up guys and the rule was you would have to drop them off at an Afghani prison. And if they didn't process them within three days, which normally they didn't, they were let out. You would see the same guys that were making IEDs three days later. Like, I just rolled that dude up. So it got to the point where in Afghanistan, I didn't believe in the mission at all. Yeah, I wanted to find out who was the better warrior. Me and my boys or them, who was thinking us or you. So it came to the point where it was more of the warrior ethical code. Hey, I'm going to be here, but my boys are coming home. We're going to do everything we can to come home. And you know, at that point in my career, I found like I was addicted to that. Like I was addicted to the thrill of going out. I mean, think about six dudes alone, 20k away from our QRF. I mean, if something popped off, no one was coming in for us, we would die. But knowing that, I love that feeling of knowing it's just us six and we're gonna go set up an ambush and we're gonna make sure it's a one way ambush, meaning, like they ain't gonna get a chance to fire on us because we're gonna take them out. And you get a. So that God power I was talking about, you get addicted to that. Like that thrill is more in the

Margi Dehlin [04:22:21] drug and it's intense that intense.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:22:24] It's intense when you get back to the FOB and you finally have that adrenaline dump, I mean, you're just wasted. So after that deployment, I came home, we had a little R and R afterwards. You get like 10 days to depress. And there's a place called the Flaming. Gorgeous. It's like our backyard in Green River. And I'm, you know, we're visiting the family and I'm swimming out the Flaming Gorge all day with my dog Shotzi. And it comes evening time and it's time to go back. And I tell my family, I'm like, hey, just leave me here. We had like this little cove off Buckboard at the Flaming Gorge. And I'm like, just leave me here. Give me a blanket. Leave me the food. Me and Shotzi will stay here. And I told my sister because she knew the area better than my wife. I was like, hey, come pick me up tomorrow at noon. She's like, that's kind of weird. I'm like, nah, it's where I feel comfortable. Well, about 2 in the morning, I'm sleeping there. And the thing I'm worried about more than anything is skunks out there. I'm like, man, I hope Shossi doesn't scare skunk. And I get sprayed. I hear a car coming, but it's coming, like, real quietly down the road. And it, you know, we're in a little gully, me and my dog and our little cooler. And I just have a blanket. It's like August. And the car drives by up high, real slow, and it goes around the corner and turns off its lights. I'm just back from Afghanistan, right? Like, when you have a six man element, you don't sleep at night when you're out there, because especially as the leader, any little sound you hear is like, intense quiet. You can't relax at all, you know? So I'm sleeping there and I hear him shut the door real quietly. I'm like, it's two in the morning. Why is the guy doing this? My dog perks up and I'm like, shotzi, come up, come down. And he doesn't walk up the road that he just drove. He's going through the sagebrush, and he's like, coming down and he stops. And I'm like. I sit up and I go, what do you want? He goes, hey, man, you want a beer? I'm like, no, I don't want a beer. Trying to sleep here. And so he leaves. But I catch him walking around like there's a ledge above me. And, you know, in my mind's eye, I'm like, oh, he's gonna try to come down, take a big stone and drop it on my head. So I get excited. I'm like, oh, here we go. So I get up quietly, I quietly climb over the cliff. Shots. He's following me, and I'm hiding in the bushes. I'm like, yes. And I had to pocket knife with me. I'm like, yes, yes. I'm gonna get this guy. And he's trying to be quiet, and my dog's like. I'm like, shut up, Chassis. Shut up. And, dude, I didn't even think about, like, the consequences.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:24] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:25:24] Or context.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:26] Yeah, like context. You're not.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:25:27] I was like, I want to kill this guy.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:29] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:25:29] And I'm getting that, like, that pump.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:31] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:25:32] So hard. It's so weird to say this in the public, but these are what guys we deal with, you know? So he's coming down, he hears shotzi, and he goes away, gets in his car, drives away, and I'M mad at Shotzi for giving me away. In the morning when the sun comes up, I'm like, what was I thinking? Yeah, what was I thinking? I'm gonna kill this guy. I got thrilled about it. So, you know, after that, you know, towards the end of my career, I was at a position and where I knew I wasn't going to lead men in combat. And that was really, you know, because the higher you go, the less like contact you're going to be made in an office role, administrative role over guys. And, you know, I was a military free fall guy, so I skydived. And so that's how I would get my like, thrill was I would go skydiving. Military free fall. And so I got put into. I made sure I got put into a unit my last four years where I could just slowly fade out. You know, we weren't fighting anymore. The warrior ethos for me, I felt we're dying. I didn't want them to. But at that time I was thinking, I'm just going to retire. I'm going to buy a ranch, I'm going to leave society and I'm just going to do my own thing with animals. Here's the second part of that story. We did that. We retired during COVID We bought our land, built our house, built our barn, brought in all of our animals. And I'm like, this is great, man. It's going to be me and my animals and I'm to not going, going back in society. I need to deal with some things. So when you're retiring, they make you see, you know, like a psychiatrist, shrink, explanatory. And I'm in there seeing this guy at Fort Bragg, and he's like, do you ever find yourself, like, carrying a gun in town? I'm like, well, I live in Fayetteville, North Carolina, so yeah, me, everyone I know does. And he looks at me and goes, you know, that's not normal. I don't know what he meant by that. And he was like, you're one of those guys that likes to sit in the corner so you can see the exits. And I'm like, I did that before I joined the military. But like, everything I was doing that I'm is completely normal for me and the guys that I hang with, protectors. He's trying to tell me that's wrong, that's not normal. And after that I was like, I'm never gonna sit down, be told that, like, I'm open to, hey, you do this probably because you feel this way, but the Answer was, it's not normal. I don't know if the money. The government was trying to just save money hiring some guy like, you know, say, talk to these dudes so we can check the block that we. They talk to a psychiatrist. But it was in a good taste with that guy. So I was like, I'll never do that again. So my answer to it was the farm. And in your mind's eye, like, the farm. That's a romantic idea, having animals. But for a guy like me that wasn't experienced with farming, the thing I didn't think about was animals die. And for me, the first time I had an animal die was, I love pigs. Potbelly pigs. We have pot belly pigs. We're no kill ranch. We just sell them as pets. And I never thought I'd be a pig guy, but the first pig we got, I fell absolutely in love with. Her name was bae, short for bacon. But she wasn't gonna be bacon.

PTSD, Veteran Suicide, and the Weight of Leadership

Margi Dehlin [04:29:19] She was never gonna be bacon.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:29:20] Yeah. And I just love this pig. And when she got pregnant, she had ba. I delivered her babies, and we had her in the shop in the wintertime. And I'd go out there at two in the morning and just lay with these piglets, you know, and they kiss you. They're so cute, and they lay on you. And, well, BAE got sick and died. And, dude, like, I don't know what happened, but maybe the trauma. For me in my life, I've realized that trauma comes in waves. Like, you could have a traumatic experience and not feel anything. Like, when my mom died, I didn't feel anything. I let my mom to death, and I struggled with, why did I not feel anything? And then a traumatic incident could happen. And all that pain from the past can hit you. And that's how, at least in my life, I felt it. So every time an animal would leave, it was like a soldier of mine died. It was like my mom, my grandpa, the old man I killed. It would all come back. So to this day, when I have an animal die, my wife was like, oh, my gosh. Like, what's Ross Gur do? I'll sit in my truck alone at night, just listen to music and cry my eyes out. And knowing that this is not normal. Like, who would think an army ranger, a tough guy, is in this car crying over a pig that died that he was. Was so attached to. Like, I have no issues, like, taking out bad guys, but a innocent pig. Like, I lose it. Or my goats or, you know, my ducks, whatever, you know, it's not that they died, but it's the trauma that Leaving the church, losing friends, having friends commit suicide.

Margi Dehlin [04:31:08] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:31:09] It all comes, you know, you.

Margi Dehlin [04:31:10] It's all connected.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:31:12] Yeah. You compartmentalize it until time it breaks.

Margi Dehlin [04:31:14] Breaks. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:31:15] And then it all comes out at once. Knowing why I'm crying, like, man, I hope my friends don't see this. They'll think, like, I'm a weirdo. But he cries over an animal that dies. I do. And I don't know what that is, but it's just. I don't know. I struggle with it at times. You know, I don't have suicidal ideations. I've never had that.

Sean Dehlin [04:31:35] But that is a huge problem, I hear, with veterans, for sure.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:31:39] Yeah. I've had more friends kill themselves. I mean, Cap. Cap was a Ranger buddy who lost his leg in Afghanistan. Wrote a book about never giving up and went through. Kept his career in the Ranger regiment with a prosthetic leg. Gets out, writes a book. Everyone looks to him like a lion after the withdrawal, kills himself. Like this lion talk to people about killing herself. Kills himself. Every day. When I'm on Facebook, maybe not me, but a guy that I know, especially in the special operations community, it's huge. People killing themselves. And I heard this quote, and it just. It resonated with me so much. It was from Tyler Gray. Like, he's a producer of the show Navy SEALs, former Delta Force guy. But he was being interviewed on the Sean Ryan podcast, and he said something that, man. I was like, yeah, that's true. He goes, I don't think people suffer so much military from ptsd. The majority of people in PTSD are, like, car victims. Like, car accidents. People suffer from PTSD all the time that don't kill themselves. He goes, I think in the military, it's lt,

Sean Dehlin [04:33:06] sd.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:33:06] Ds. Yeah. Yeah. Sd. And he was like, what's. What's lt? And goes, lack of traumatic syndrome. Like, we get connected to this traumatic. Like, our whole life revolves around it. Like, we. We feed off that. You know, in Vietnam, they didn't want to go on deployments. Nowadays, you want to, like. You want that action.

Margi Dehlin [04:33:28] It's become your normal. It's become the normal.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:33:30] Oh, it became normal in the early 2000s. Like, people would, like, go to units just to deploy because you would feel that sense of purpose. Like, you're alive, you know, you're engaged, and.

Margi Dehlin [04:33:41] Oh, they lose their meaning and even clarity. The clarity of a mission. Right. And you're united. You've got your unit.

Sean Dehlin [04:33:50] Or good guys and bad guys, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:33:52] Yeah. So when they get out, it's not so much what they've seen, it's losing that feeling of no more adrenaline do I even feel anymore.

Margi Dehlin [04:34:02] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:34:02] And most guys resort to alcohol coupled with pills that they've been getting from the va. Yeah. And it's just a downward spiral. Most of my friends have been on, they've done those psychedelic trips with, I began and all that. And I actually had a donor, this is in 2002 that was going to pay for me to go to Costa Rica and do it. All expense paid. My brother in law started his mission in Costa Rica. He's left the church too. He's going to go with me. And I'm sitting in our little barn and I'm holding a little lamb and I hear this voice say, everything you have is here. And that cured me of it. I think you're right. The farm is everything I need. I don't recommend that for everyone. Like if it, if it's the. I have friends that have done that treatment and never touched a drop of alcohol ever since doing that.

Margi Dehlin [04:34:53] Yeah, yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:34:55] They call it the God medicine because all of them experience religion like a God for the first time.

Sean Dehlin [04:35:00] Are you talking about like ayahuasca?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:35:01] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you know, they might have been atheists, but the experience they had through that whole trip, they come out believers. So here's a weird thing. All my atheist friends that I was always a believer, now it's flopped. I'm like, I believe in a higher power, but they're like religious reading the Bible now and I'm like, dude, where were you like 10 years ago? So the roles have flipped when they go on those ayahuasca trips, you know, so it's really weird.

Margi Dehlin [04:35:32] But do you know one thing I was thinking about when you were describing that feeling of leading your guys into a situation with this idea of your only kind of thing is to do the mission, get them back home safe. Right. It feels symbolic of your mission with your family. It's this symbolism of your protector, of your people. And there's danger and there are unknowns, but you're. And it's this over and over again, mission after mission, you living out you little. Where you couldn't do that. But guess what? This time you win. This time you know, you're the powerful one. This time you do it. And how intoxicating it might be, even you know, your. With the death of your brother, again, no power. But in this way you are able to save. In this way you're able to protect and that without that, you know, and I, even on the farm, end the observation of you with these animals and then you're witnessing death and life and birth and all of it. But it's like where there was so much death around you for all those years of, you know, serving and watching all the people go down and having moments of at least questioning ethics of that you're now living in this mini environment of animals, right. Where life happens and you're a protector now of that. But you are still having moments in death where you can't protect everyone. You can't protect oftentimes from the inevitable. And I wonder if it brings back that out of control. You know what I mean? The difference between a mission where you're and you're up against, but also there are inevitabilities where you come face to face with life and the fact that you just don't. You can't protect everyone from life and death and all the things you know.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:37:44] Do you feel that I'm starting to come to that realization? No, you're exactly right. The whole reason why we got our ranch, I shouldn't say we. I was the motivating force behind it was to protect my family from the world, you know, like we were have our own farm and just leave society because it's corrupt and just heal ourselves recenter ourselves. No, you're exactly right. And I've gotten to the point where I lose an animal and I'm like, I'm okay with it.

Margi Dehlin [04:38:11] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:38:11] Because I know it's now the cycle of life. And I think having that form has helped me work through that trauma.

Margi Dehlin [04:38:19] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:38:19] To the point where when I get up on that cliff, so to speak, I know how to reel myself back like this is life. And I'm just grateful for the time I spent with that animal. I'm just now getting to that part where I can think that way.

Margi Dehlin [04:38:33] Yeah, I see that. I see that. The other thing that I see that is so valuable is that for so many years it feels like because you're engaged literally in combat and battle, that you had all this life happening behind that that you couldn't really process in real time, not with what was required of you. You know, and so this idea of just you have, you know, complex grief, you have multiples of griefs that I feel like. And just like when you. You may think it's a. It's a pig that you've. And it is, but it is a web that leads to your brother and you know, all the different things. So you're you are feeling for the pig. But why it feels so intense is because it leads to all these other, you know, unprocessed in some way, deaths that at the time you couldn't feel.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:39:36] You're exactly, exactly right. And I've recognized that.

Margi Dehlin [04:39:39] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:39:39] Like even when I've had to get rid of like a male pig because he's impregnating all the pigs or, or a goat, like it's so traumatic for me to get rid of this because my dad left us.

Margi Dehlin [04:39:49] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:39:50] And I realized in my life, like that's why I feel this way because I've been abandoned. My grandpa was taken from us, murdered. So I feel like when I sell my animals I'm doing the same thing. And then I had to process like this is life.

Margi Dehlin [04:40:04] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:40:05] So having the farm has really helped me in a way, you know. So, yeah, that I worked out for like two years, still have the farm. But I just learned that after a while you can't be in your own echo chamber. Like you have to, if you're a service oriented person, like you know, law enforcement, military, whatever, you, you have to get out there and if you still fulfill that, find that purpose, you have to fulfill it, at least in my belief. So I was fortunate enough to be able to find a job where I could continue teaching the stuff I know to the next upcomers of warriors. But that night I can go home to my family. So it's.

Sean Dehlin [04:40:43] What's that job?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:40:45] So I'm a full spectrum instructor at a place called Griffin Group and we teach like tactics to DoD, Secret Service, you name it. We teach them shooting, protection skills, active shooter, driving. And then, you know, and then I started my own business doing personal protection and same thing that I do for the big business, but more stuff like that. I'm into like reconnaissance, surveillance. So that has brought a new purpose in life where I can like teach this stuff that I love and know. Like when I was a kid and played army, all the stuff that I found I find value in to the next up and comers of war fighters without having to go out there and experience the trauma. And I talk a lot about that to these guys. Like hey man, there's. You got to remember like when you pull that trigger, this isn't just a momentary thing, this is going to be a life changing effect. So when you pull that trigger, you need to make sure that there's a personal like there's like what we call a positive identification. There's a reason for it. And that reason should be the only time to protect another life or you're gonna suffer for the rest of your life like, dad, need to kill that guy. So there's. I think there's gonna be a generation of war fighters that have, you know, at my age, my peers that are gonna be struggling with like, what was this all for? The Taliban now have more equipment than when we met them, you know.

Sean Dehlin [04:42:21] So, yeah, I was going to loop right back to that. So I originally asked you how you felt about believing in the Mormon Church and having that be the reason why you went into the military. And then you said, and it wasn't just these are my words, not yours. It wasn't just the Mormon Church I became disillusioned with once I learned it wasn't true. You also felt disillusioned by the US government for the way they handled Afghanistan. So how. What are you thinking and how are you processing sort of that double disillusion?

Faith Transition and Redefining Belief

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:42:55] Here's the coupler to that. The time I was having that most crisis of faith, if you want to call it that, 2012 and 13, I was also having that with Mike Everman.

Margi Dehlin [04:43:05] Yes. I'm not surprised.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:43:08] So it was intermingled with the administration at the time.

Margi Dehlin [04:43:12] What was going on at the time, different hierarchies.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:43:16] So I didn't know how to process any of that. So it was like a double whammy. Yeah. So, yeah. And knowing that I would never deploy again, probably in the capacity where we're engaging kinetic, having kinetic engagements with the enemy, I started wondering what my purpose was. What's my purpose in life if I'm not a Mormon? What's my purpose in life if I'm not a warrior?

Margi Dehlin [04:43:37] Now, two different identities that you held.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:43:40] It was a double whammy. Like, it was hard. And I think that's why towards the end of my career, I just realized, like, I wanted to go somewhere where I could just do what I loved, which was skydiving and then out process out of the military. And Covid really was a blessing in my eyes for us. I know a lot of people died out on me and that way. But for me, you know, they stopped us from going to work. We had to work. Even in the army, it was all, we call it tele, conference, whatever. So it was a good time for me to decompress all this stuff and get into farming.

Sean Dehlin [04:44:17] But it sounds like you didn't experience a lot of anger at the church. And I'm going to get at the church or go after the church or take the church down because it misled me. And it sounds like you haven't spent a lot of time saying, the government's bad and I'm gonna fight the government. It just sounds like you experienced a disillusionment. You felt it, but then you decided to redirect to find other ways to heal and grow. How did you know? And then there's me that's been doing Mormon stories podcast for 20 years. And there's other people that find other ways to. To fight back or get angry or try and get back at the church or the government. How did you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:45:00] I experienced that for, like, a good year.

Sean Dehlin [04:45:02] Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:45:02] After the November 15 policy, I was, like, raging mad. But I don't know. I think a lot of it was just, you know, at the time, I would listen to a lot of the secular Buddhism, and I would study a lot of the Eastern philosophies and realizing that, like, a lot of this is. There's so much nuance and everything that, you know, the Mormon Church is doing what they think is right. I don't think they purposely go out and try to harm members. They say these stupid things that harm people all the time, but I don't think they wake up in the morning, like, how can I piss off these people? You know, I think they're doing what they think they're. God is directing them. At the same time, with the government, I've come to realize, like, I can't get bent around the axle because it's out of my control. So, sure.

Sean Dehlin [04:45:58] By. Not to defend, I'm.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:46:00] This is not Biden or Trump or whoever.

Sean Dehlin [04:46:02] Biden probably didn't wake up saying, I'm gonna. I'm gonna botch this.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:46:05] You know, I'm gonna screw this up. So all these guys kill themselves? No, no, no.

Sean Dehlin [04:46:09] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:46:10] Not at all.

Sean Dehlin [04:46:10] Right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:46:11] But it happened. Yeah. And my. My philosophy behind it is it's just gonna burn me up if I focus on that.

Margi Dehlin [04:46:19] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:46:20] So I've gotten to the point in my life, I'm trying to be stage five Fowler, where I can just be at peace with what's going on and just realize, like, this is humanism. There's. This isn't religion. This isn't politics. It's just a human experience. And that's why I can go to church with my family. Because at the end of the day, the most important thing to me is my family. And if going to church with them means that, hey, I've just got to suck up whatever and reward myself during second hour with the milkshake from Burger King down the Road. Then, hey, as long as my kids see that they're with their parents. Like, I used to listen to a lot of marriage on the tightrope.

Sean Dehlin [04:47:02] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:47:03] Love those guys.

Margi Dehlin [04:47:04] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [04:47:05] Shout out to Alan and Katie Mount.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:47:06] Yeah. And they would interview people and, like, I never understood, like, how people who are so active in the church could, like, read the CES story and the next day not believe. Like, I know it happens, but I couldn't process it because for me, it was a long. Like, it was a long fight in the darkness, you know? And I wish I could have been like that. I just don't understand how, like, in the overnight, you flip and kudos to those people that can do that. You know, maybe I'm a slow learner and I'm a. You know, I like pain or something. I don't know.

Sean Dehlin [04:47:48] But, no, it sounds like it's something else. It sounds like you're basically saying, you know, take your time.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:47:56] Yeah, For. For me, it was a. You know, at the end of the day, my belief system. At the end of the day, I still believe in a higher power that directs my life. Like, I don't know what happens after death. I recently heard this guy left the church. He has an Instagram. He goes, I subscribe to religion of shrugarism. And they're like, what's that? And he goes, when someone tells you something, I'm like, shrug, yeah, sure.

Sean Dehlin [04:48:24] Shrugism, sure.

Margi Dehlin [04:48:26] Maybe.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:48:26] Maybe, you know, we're all religions, you know, so for me, trying to be like, you know, like a warrior monk, you know, I say that with tongue in cheek.

Margi Dehlin [04:48:38] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:48:39] But trying to understand it, just realizing that, for me, there's still a higher power. I still live by a code. It's not a religious code. It's a code that I made up after I killed that man in Afghanistan. Going back to that, I was watching Dexter. I don't know if you've ever seen Dexter, but I used to call those deployment shows because we don't watch those in our house. But on deployments, I'd catch up on, like, Dexter or whatever. And shortly after where I killed that man, I was watching an episode of Dexter. Changed my life. But it's where his adopted dad said, hey, you gotta live by code, son. You have to channel this desire to kill for a righteous reason. And that night, I wrote a code that I was gonna live by, knowing that I didn't really believe in Mormonism anymore. I had to have, like, a.

Margi Dehlin [04:49:34] Your own values.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:49:35] A Bushido, if you would. A warrior's way. For me, So I live by that warrior code.

Sean Dehlin [04:49:41] What's in that code?

Margi Dehlin [04:49:41] What are some things on my phone.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:49:43] I could read it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, I have to live by a code because there's. There's. I know there's still meaning. So I. I told you. Thank you. A year ago. Here's a trauma story I didn't talk about, but about a year and a half ago, my dad died. Prior to him dying, he set himself on fire. He was on oxygen. You know, I told you. He went to the temple, but he got back on cigarettes. Well, he was lighting up a cigarette on oxygen, and a flame went down his throat. And so he got put into. You know, when they know you're gonna die, you go. No, intensive care. Yeah, he got put into a center that, you know, they knew he was gonna die, so they're just. Oh, hospice. Hospice. Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:50:31] Oh, right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:50:32] So I'm getting ready to. I wanted to wait because you never know. It could be a month. It could be. I was gonna wait till he died. Well, he. He finally passed away. And my dad and I were always close. He was always a hero. I was the only one in the family that, you know, had a relationship with him. But. So once he died, right. I was. I was like. So this could be weird to say, but for me, I find peace in my paddocks where the donkeys poop and pigs pee. I go in there and I rake it. I put in my earbuds. I turn my music on to shuffle. And at this time, I let, like, the universe scare Sound weird, but play the music that it wants me to hear. So I was in there thinking about my dad starting himself on fire. And the song by Poison came on. Every Rose has Its Thorn or talks about a suicide Vietnam vet. And I lost it. Like, I'm raking up the paddock and I'm, like, thinking, like, thank you, universe, for sending this song to me. I probably played it, like, 10 times in a row. Sorry. Give me something to believe in. That's the song. And I'm raking. I get done by poison. By poison, of all people. Yeah. And so I get rid of everything. And as I'm walking away from the barn feeling re. Centered, I said, God gave me something to believe in. At this time, we had, you know, we have a boat. We have Jordan Lake. We have a nice boat. And it was Sunday. Saturday is the day that I'm wrecking, having this experience, saying, God, give me something to believe in. Sunday, we take the boat to the lake. My wife doesn't go, you know, personal reasons. I take the kids to the lake and we have a great time. I come driving back home on 87 and in the middle of nowhere, the tire pops pop. And I'm like freaking out. I'm trying to control this truck. And you know, I have my daughters and my son in there. And I'm looking at the tire and it's like a smooth donut. The tread had blown off, but the smooth donut was still there. And I'm like, what am I going to do? And I look over, there's a mailbox, middle of nowhere. Highway 87, right for Stamford, North Carolina. And I look out there, there's a mobile home. And I'm just like, oh man. And I drive up there and I park in front of the home and I say, hey, roll down your window. So when I knock on the door, they don't think I'm a psychopath. They know that I'm with my family, you know. So I go up in their yard, I knock on the door, gentleman comes around the back. Dogs are like barking in this house. And it's a junkyard. And my intent was to tell him, hey, can I leave my boat here and after work tomorrow I'll come back, I'll buy a tire and I'll fix it. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bring it on up, man. And he's helping me back up my boat, getting it out of the way. And he comes over and he looks at the tire. He's like, what size is that? And you know, I've been down, take a picture of it, cuz I want to remember the, all the information on the tire. So when I go buy one, I can buy the right one for this trailer. And he goes, you know that I was just at the swamp meet yesterday and I picked up three tires. I don't need them, I just had film to pick them up. We walk over there. John is God's my witness, the one tire I needed that he doesn't even need have a need for was right there. And he was like, hey man, I have a jack. Why don't we just put it on there? And I was like, sir, I'll pay for this. He's like, don't even worry about it. I was like, no, no, no, I'll give you money. He's like, I'll just get, get your fam home. We jack up my, my trailer, take off the bolts, put that tire on. And I start crying. And my daughter's like, dad, what's going. My oldest, you know, he goes inside the house to do whatever, and I tell her the whole story. Like, dude, you know, waking up the paddock and asking God to give me something. Now, to most people that be like, oh, that's a coincidence. But if you're there at the time and let it happen where I'm feeling desperate because I'm in the middle of nowhere with my boat that had exploded and the guy just happened to the day before, go have a prompting at a swamp meet to buy this tire that he doesn't even have a need for. And then to me, it was like the heavens aligning. And it was like God's way of saying, I still love you. So for me, I have a very personal relationship with the higher power because I still believe in that. I still believe in that voice. I hear the reason why I have a farm. You know, in 2018, we were driving up to Raven Rock with my kids. So like, Like a national forest. And I'm passing all these farms. I've always wanted a farm, you know, from Idaho growing up. And I remember thinking, like, one day I'm going to buy a farm. I heard the voice say, why not now? That same voice, that day we got back, I told my wife, we're looking at land. We found like, four or five properties. We kept passing the property that I have now, but I thought it was like millions of dollars. It's like 91 acres. So I was like, ah, we'll never be able for that. And she's like, ross, why don't you just call and find out? Anyways, long story short, we sold our land in Cedar City. We had bought land in Cedar City, and we bought this farm. I mean, because of the voice that I heard that said, do it. And I believed it. There's a hundred of those stories I could tell you where I still believe that there's a higher power involved in our life. And I still believe that maybe that voice I hear is a loved one on the other side that is still there and protecting and watching over us. I know it sounds weird for some people, but for me, that's my belief system. I still believe that there's a power in all this. You don't have to be Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim. It's great if you are, if you find meaning. But at the end of the day, I think God wants all of us to be back with him, you know, all of us to include, you know, the bad guy and the good guy. Someday I might come face to face with that guy. I killed. And I'll be able to say, hey, man, I thought you were bad. I'm so sorry. Like, I've struggled the rest of my life with killing you. You know, it's probably a fantasy belief, but I like to believe in that stuff. I believe in higher power. I think that's why I've never gone down the route of suicide. Because I believe at the end of the day, this thing, this universe, still has our best interest at heart. Even if there's evilness in this world, which I've seen plenty of. But even with that, like, at the end of the day, it's all gonna be worth it. And God, still God, whatever. I don't believe in the anti. Whatever, you know, God with hands and arms or a plan of happiness. I just believe that there's a higher power, that if we tap into that higher power, it will guide you in life. That's my belief system.

Margi Dehlin [04:57:20] Yeah. It feels like you've deconstructed a little bit, at least the Mormon God to create this one. So when you go back to some of the moments where you reached out to God, like when you broke your tibia, or do you find that. How do you process those moments with this kind of new way that you think about God, or this idea of being in a place where you took someone's life and what God would feel about that, or how have you reconstructed God? What's different this time?

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:58:02] You know, I don't know. A week after that boat story, my third daughter, Katie, started dating this young man named Dylan. Another beautiful young kid. She waited till she was 16 because she still believes in that. His family, he's not lds, but his parents are preachers. He had to wait till he was 16 to date. So anyways, they started dating for two months and Dylan would come over. Love, Dylan. At this time, Dylan also had a motorcycle that his dad bought him. They go on a biking trip on a Harley and then come back. And Dylan, the next day was supposed to go to the lake with us. And the young men was killed on this bike. My daughter has life360, you know, life350 or 60 on their phone, and her and Dylan had it. And this kid was amazing kid. And, you know, when he passed away, she had a feeling like something was wrong. And I'm not going to get too much into it because it's a pretty traumatic story. The dad, you know, wanted the officer to kill him. He was on his knees. You know, this is a good friend of mine. You know, they happened too far Away from us. But when Dylan died, like. Like, it threw me into, like, a quandary and like, why?

Margi Dehlin [04:59:30] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [04:59:31] And, you know, it's one thing when you go through the cycle of grief, but when you see a child of yours, especially one so young and tender. She was 16 at the time, and you recognize that cycle of grief. As a parent, there's nothing worse than maybe losing a child, but watching one of your own children, like, it's devastating. And at times like that, you're like, why would you take Dylan? He was one of the good ones, this good young man, you know? And so going back to your question of deconstructing and reconstructing, you know, I do pretty good until I get trauma, event happens, and then I'm like, yeah. I'm to the point of like, is there a God? Like, I had to put Shotzi down my dog after 17 years. And, you know, as a warrior, I just felt like the honorable way to do it was to do it myself. She had gotten to the point where she couldn't remember anyone. We had a creek, she'd jump in the creek, couldn't even get out. I'd try to get out, she'd bite me. She was at that level.

Margi Dehlin [05:00:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:00:37] So I gave her. Her favorite thing to eat was just pizza. She didn't eat it. She was throwing up and pooping out blood. Now I took her out back, and with my 9 meal, I stuck it to her head and killed her. And because I didn't want to take her to a vet and had the vet go through the whole thing and experience it for the vet, in my way, this is my way of honoring my dog and finally saying, you know, I took care of you and I'm going to take care of you now, man. Once I pulled that trigger and I saw blood come out the of her mouth, like, in my head, I was like, there's no God. There's no God. I struggled with that for like a month, you know, just then Dylan died. So I. I don't know where. I don't know. I shrug.

Margi Dehlin [05:01:30] Yeah, that's right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:01:31] I just know that this is like a human experience.

Margi Dehlin [05:01:35] Yeah, that's right.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:01:37] And if we keep going, then the sunshine will come back. At the end of the day, I have my family. That's all I care for.

Margi Dehlin [05:01:44] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:01:47] So, yeah.

Sean Dehlin [05:01:49] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [05:01:50] You've known a lot of. A lot of loss, a lot of violence and a lot of suffering up close, you know.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:02:01] Yeah. But all that violence was. Didn't hurt as bad as leaving the church. That was the worst pain I've ever been through, like, the worst. So. But yeah, once I got past that, it was. It was like smooth water after that.

Sean Dehlin [05:02:16] Man, that's saying a lot.

Margi Dehlin [05:02:18] It is saying a lot.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:02:20] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [05:02:23] Well, what a powerful and vulnerable story.

Margi Dehlin [05:02:29] Yeah.

Reflections on War, Violence, and Geopolitics

Sean Dehlin [05:02:30] I wanted to just talk to you about your thoughts on war. And, you know, especially, you know, there's so much I want to talk about, so. So, like, if. And if it's okay, I'm just going to share with you some thoughts that I've been having recently. So. So on the one hand, there's the argument that America, any country, needs to defend itself or protect its interests. And that war has been around humanity since the very beginning. Like, war is inevitable. I once heard it said that the history of mankind is the history of war, that you can't get rid of it. So there's the argument that it's always going to be here, and it's what countries have to do, otherwise other countries will take them over. So that's one default mindset. And so, like, in the country, in the United States, there's this huge military budget and, you know, don't touch the defense budget. Patriotism, you know, thank you for your service. Troops. Thank you for the service. Veterans Day, all that. Like, that's. And I get all that. And that's kind of how I was raised. My dad, like I told you at the very beginning, he's. He's Coast Guard reservist, retired. Military service was encouraged in our family and all that.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:03:52] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [05:03:53] But then, you know, you learn about war and you just realize that I think there's nothing worse in the world than war. Right. Yeah. And on the one hand, it's glorified, but on the other hand, it's literally one of the worst things ever. And so, and, and, and, you know, we talked about. And I know I'm talking a lot, but I'm just trying to say, set up a conversation. So, you know, I lived. Your dad went to Vietnam. And I remember growing up how the. When the Vietnam soldiers returned, it was kind of the first time American soldiers were, like, disrespected and spit on or protested against for their service. And that was probably because they were in a war they shouldn't have ever been in. I don't know if that's the truth, but that's kind of one way to look at it. And then I remember Iraq and the first Iraq war. I was on my mission. I'm like, well, you know, I guess Iraq, what did they invade Kuwait? And, okay, we need to. You need to respect, you know, national sovereignty. And if, and if Saddam invaded Kuwait, okay, we need to get him out. But the second Iraq war, when it appears as though just a justification was

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:05:08] made

Sean Dehlin [05:05:11] to invade, probably for our self interest, I don't know. But certainly the weapons of mass destruction thing wasn't really apparently a real reason. Then you're like, why did we do that war? Followed by a lot of people feeling like, was Afghanistan a good thing or a bad thing? So I just want to have you talk about, you know, but we can all have opinions as citizens, but we don't have to actually go fight. You have gone and you've, you know, you've lived it and you've lived it on the ground. And so I know that was a really long setup, but I just want to hear your reflections on all that I just said and anything else you want to say about war. As someone who did three tours of duty.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:06:01] Yeah. You know, there's a saying out there that goes before man was created, war was always waiting for him. And I believe that, you know, because we're human. As far as war, is it necessary? I think about this a lot, John. Like, I think about this a lot. Of course, there's a necessity for it because there will always be evil people on this earth. The war like, you ever seen that show Winn Dixie with.

Sean Dehlin [05:06:34] Because of Winn Dixie?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:06:35] Yeah. There's a scene where Dave Matthews is with the girl and the dog and they're talking about war, and he says war should be four word. A four word or four letter word. Four letter word. In other words, it should be something never spoken of unless you have to.

Sean Dehlin [05:07:02] Not meaning we shouldn't talk about it. We shouldn't get into war.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:07:07] That's the last thing that we should do. It's the last measurement that we should do. And there's reasons for that. Now, having said that, I do want to say here that I am grateful for the opportunity I had to serve my country, to fulfill a dream of mine, to meet my dearest friends that I consider. I would share things with them that I wouldn't even share with my own brothers to this day. I wouldn't take anything back. Like, there's things I saw in Iraq and Afghanistan that, you know, weren't humane. But I wouldn't even take that back because what it produced in me, honestly, I think it produced the ultimate humanity in man. Because you really can't understand life. This is just me speaking. Until you experience death, like, you can't be thankful really for life, unless you've really taken a death, whether someone you love or you kill somebody. You know, in the dichotomy of that life and that death, having to judge that, I mean, I wouldn't take that back at all. It's created the person who I am, who I'm proud to be now. You know, I talk about when I was young, I had self esteem issues. I don't know. I'm very proud that I was a United States Army Ranger. That was like a pinnacle of something in my life that was very fulfilling. My wife hates when I say this. She hates it because she thinks it's a dig on her and the kids, but it's not. It's just the truth. I never felt more alive. Like my purpose on this earth was never fulfilled. Like it was leading a six man reconnaissance team on a mission, walking up a mountain, being the first one up there because the leader leads the way. You know, like we had a senior scout that was supposed post 12 o', clock, you know, But I get to this mountain, I'm just outside of Kandahar. It's like two in the morning. We have like two more hours of being placed before we send up our first report. Anyways. I remember looking over at the lights of Kandahar and I just get this feeling like this is who I am. This is everything I've ever wanted to be. And there's six of us, it's just us. We had a spray pair of guns. I mean, it sounds silly to say, but unless like this has been a childhood dream of yours and then when you're finally getting there to do it in war, when it matters, like, it's hard to explain that feeling. And I think that's why a lot of veterans struggle when they get up, because that was the pinnacle of their life. And I felt that, like I was like, I just remember staying on that mountain just like, like being so thankful, like fulfilled. And that was like some of the best times of my life. Like on that Afghanistan deployment, like I could look back and be like, that's probably the best year of my life. And I was even with my family, who I love so much. But I just felt such a sense of purpose. Even though I didn't agree why we were still there. It didn't make sense to me. Like, this is 2012. It's been like 11 years. We all know Osama bin Laden's not there. We all knew he was in Pakistan. We knew that back then. Why are we still here? The Taliban didn't attack Us. So these were things that I was struggling with. We were here for Al Qaeda. We wiped them out in, like, four months. But we're here now. And again, this is just me. I'm just a nug. I don't think on the strategic level, but to a young E6, at the time, my thoughts were, why are we still here? What's our mission? I didn't have a. You know, our unit didn't even have a mission of why we're there. If they did. I don't remember it. I just remember, like, the reason why I was happy to be there was to test my mettle against my enemy's mettle, who I actually respected because they were fierce fighters. So it's you or me who's the best. That was my mentality. And this is shortly after Marcus Luttrell's book came out, Lone Survivor. And so, you know, I remember thinking about this and, like, hey, man, if my team's over there, my team's gonna survive, even if I have to, like, kidnap a kid and keep him quiet until we leave, you know, so. But war, I mean, I don't know, John, like, the nuance of it, There will always be war. And I think war produces the best of us, but it also produces the worst. Like, I talked about my two buddies when we were pulling security on these three dudes naked on their knees. We didn't know who they were. Now, my two buddies are good people.

Sean Dehlin [05:12:16] These are the ones that you mentioned were maybe a little rough with those prisoners.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:12:21] These are young men at the time who were 19. All they know is, like, friends have been blown up. People are trying to kill us. You know, we're still believing in the Pax Americana. Like, we're trying to make the world a better place after our values. But as a young man, you don't think about all that. You know, you just think, like, we're right, you're wrong. You're killing my friends. So war has a way, if not, if you don't bridle those passions, like, the worst can come out on you to the point where, like me, I was talking about laying in my cot at night. How can I do a more dynamic ambush so I can kill more people? Because once you start killing people, it's, like, addicting. And I say that tongue in cheek. Cheek. You know, some people probably hear that, and it's probably not going to ring with them, but some of us, that rings true. Like, you get addicted to that God power when you can take a life at a moment's notice, like, there's a power to it that if you don't keep that power bridled, it could go wrong.

Sean Dehlin [05:13:30] But it's so powerful to juxtapose that with you describing your farm where you, like, cry if a pig dies. You know what I mean? Like, there's something really powerful about. I don't know what that says about us as humans, but that if we have a job to do, we're gonna do it. And while sometimes we have to kill multiple humans because that's our job, we can weep and sob when a. When a pig passes. Right. That's. Isn't that just mind blowing?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:14:02] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [05:14:02] It's not that you don't care about the humans. Right. It's not that you care about pigs more than humans either, right? Maybe

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:14:12] so. You know, I think about this a lot. I still wouldn't have an issue if I knew there's a threat out there. I could take care of the threat and go to bed at night with no not losing that. You know, I'm not trying to sound like macho, but animals are, to me, innocent. They're just animals, you know, and they show you love no matter what. Like, at least my farm animals do, you know, so to this day, like, yeah, that dichotomy of, like, if I was called upon to protect my family, I wouldn't think twice about protecting them and. And taking care of a threat. But at the same time, when my animal dies, like, in my soul, like, I'm crying, like, I miss this animal. Like it's a part of me, you know, when my first. That's gonna sound so weird, but when my first pet pig. I never thought I'd have a pig after I retired, when she had her first litter, like, I'd go out at 2 in the morning, and in our shop, I'd just lay there and let the piglets climb all over me. And like, to this day, it's one of the joyous times, like, where I just felt connected to the earth. And I love this pig. I love those piglets. It's weird to say Army Ranger, you know, but you're laying with piglets, you know, at 2 in the morning because they bring you so much joy and peace. And I think a lot of that was just the trauma, you know, I'm not even talking war here, but just trauma that people feel in their lives. I think animals have a way to work. I don't know, maybe because they're innocent, but they have a way of healing that, and I need that at the Time, you know, when I, when you retire, there's not a big ceremony, just one day, you sign your, you know, DD214, you go get a flag at the main post and you're out 21 years of that's who you are, and all of a sudden you're driving off post, wearing your uniform for the last time, and that's it.

Sean Dehlin [05:16:15] So

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:16:18] I think for me, having the farm and animals, it was just a way to cope with, like, with all that, you know, And I still feel that way with my animals.

Sean Dehlin [05:16:29] So really quickly, sometimes you'll refer, you know, to your, to the opponents or enemies. What do you call them? Like, how do you describe the guys

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:16:39] or, or what adversaries?

Sean Dehlin [05:16:41] Sometimes you'll refer to them as bad guys. And I've always, I'm sure you've thought about this too, and maybe you mentioned it like, they're probably just dads and sons who were based on duty doing the same thing you were doing, but for the, the team they grew up with. So it, like, it seems like that would get in my mind a lot. Like, on the one hand, yeah, there they might be bad guys or pointing guns at you or trying to hurt you, but on the other hand, they just happen to be born on a different side of the world with allegiance to different leader or different government or trying to protect their family. And so that would just, it just. I, I don't know how I would. I mean, I know you can compartmentalize, but, like, the math of that. Who's the bad guy? You're the bad guy to them. Yeah, I'm sure you thought about that, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:17:35] Yeah, but to a point. Okay, like, you were talking about Trump, right? And some of the policies. Here's what a lot of people in the western world don't understand about that. Outside the western world, leaders, like other leaders, they don't respect freedom. They don't respect, like, all these guys have a constitution that's supposed to give them rights. They respect strong men, that's all. So whether you like Trump, Biden, you know the politics of it, I really don't. I try not to get involved in that. But one thing I do know is they respect a strong leader. And that's probably why for four years, Kim Jong Un, Putin, you name it, like, nothing really happened because they were afraid of Trump, because they knew that he would probably do what he said he would do. And that starts from, you know, black Hawk down with Bill Clinton and pulling out after, you know, 19 u. S. Service members were killed to include Rangers and Delta Force guys and, you know, Mike Durant, the pilot, being captured. And as soon as we rescue him, we tuck our tails between our legs and leave. Well, Solomon Long saw that and he was like, oh, when America gets hit, they're gonna run again. This is my opinion. But, you know, so I think a lot of what happened later on down the road was because they thought America had been compromised and that they wouldn't do anything. Now, Iraq, we talked about Iraq the second time, you know, going back to that Pax Americana where you think like, making every place like America is going to make them better. I think I said this last time. When you're there in Iraq, you start to understand why you have to be a strong man to control numerous tribes and different religions that want to kill each other. You need a strong man. Sometimes it's going to be hard for people to hear me say that, but, you know, say what you want about Saddam, he's an evil man, but he kept that place in check after he left. What filled the void ISIS came through. So the reality of the world is sometimes they're not like us. These men that we hunted are the kind of men they would strap suicide vest on a small kid and walked them into a chow hall. So not all of them were like us. And there are true evil people out there. I know that. So a lot of times it didn't bother me, you know, that America was involved in some of these wars, but it bothered me when I killed somebody that I felt like might have been a mistake. You know, that, that, that wilder shit. Because as a trained warrior, you know, you're, you're, you're trained to positively ID anyone you pull that trigger on and it better be a bad guy. I think that's why it separates America from a lot of other countries that we fight, is we really. Regardless of what people think, service members really do try to just get bad guys. We try to avoid collateral damage. I mean, nowadays, World War II, that's a different story. You know, we're firebombing Tokyo. But in today's world, we really train on just taking out the threats and leaving the good people as opposed to our enemy, who the ends justify the means. And they don't have a problem clacking off a suicide vest on a bus civilians, if it gets their message across. So these are some of the people we're fighting. So I never really had a issue with the war part of it like that, but I had an issue with seeing children suffer, like after the shock and all when we went to Baghdad, you see sewer kids in the street. That's really just question, like, what's the plan of happiness? I mean, where's their happiness? We could talk about the plan of happiness, because in America, we live a good life.

Sean Dehlin [05:22:09] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:22:10] You know, we've never really had to suffer, but kids in third world countries.

Sean Dehlin [05:22:15] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:22:16] It's just. It's just. It's a struggle to think about it really quickly.

Sean Dehlin [05:22:22] I. I'm dying to just get your point of view on Ukraine. So, you know, we all, we all know about World War II and appeasement, where Germany caused World War I, and so they were punished, and then Hitler brought the Germans back to having national pride. And then Hitler starts to take over countries. Was it Austria who he took over first? I'm trying to remember. And then what's that?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:22:44] Austria, Hungary.

Sean Dehlin [05:22:45] Yeah. And then Neville Chamberlain, the Prime Minister of the uk Negotiates peace in our time and thinking that by giving them just a little bit, by giving Hitler just a little bit, Hitler would stop, he'd be appeased, and then, you know, he wouldn't keep going. And then, of course, he rolled all the way into Russia and World War II happened. So appeasement was a disaster. So there's a, you know, Putin's in Ukraine. He's invaded Ukraine. He's, you know, the way it looks is that Trump is likely to just say, look, you can keep what you've taken, but. But stop. And then Putin will say, okay, you know, I'm happy right now to stop. I'll keep the land that we've taken. Like, is that. On the one hand, I could think, if it stops the war, and there are tens or hundreds of more people, tens or hundreds of thousands of more people dying, and all that money, billions of dollars being wasted. Yeah, stop that war. Even if Putin gets to keep part of Ukraine, stop that war. Because war is the worst thing. That's. That's one point of view. And it seems like that's what Trump is likely to do. It seems like that's what he said he's going to do. I don't think there's any way Trump's going to ask Putin to go back to the earlier border, and I don't think Putin would if he did. So on the one hand, I'm thinking, well, that, yeah, end that war. Whatever it takes. End the war. But then on the other hand, I'm like, how is that not Appeasement 2.0 and Rewarding Putin for violating national sovereignty? And how is that not an invitation to him or other countries like China or whatever, to. To. To follow suit. Do you have any thoughts on just even philosophically, this dilemma that I'm. That I'm raising? Because I think about it a lot. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:24:37] I tell you, when in February, when Putin did his special military operation, like, I was glued to the tv. I mean, this is the nearest thing that we've had to, you know, a near peer war where there's airplanes on both sides, artillery on both sides, and, you know, just war like that we haven't seen since World War II. Right.

Sean Dehlin [05:25:03] Would you call it like direct. Direct head to head or something?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:25:06] Near peer or peer on peer?

Sean Dehlin [05:25:08] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:25:10] I don't know if there's so much near peer just because of the numerical numbers that Russia has. You know, Russia is a country of 150 million, but just being just, you know, everybody. Everybody was like, hey, Ukraine's gonna fold in a week, maybe two weeks. And then two months, three months, four months. And you're like, wow, these guys are. A, we're really surprised that Russia was just really a paper tiger. I mean, really. And B, just the resolve that the Ukrainians had to fight for their country.

Sean Dehlin [05:25:47] Now, they're creative and they're fierce.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:25:49] Yeah. Fierce warriors. Right. I mean, their bloodlines go all the way to the Vikings. But the difficulties of this is there's a war where hundreds are dying on each side per day.

Sean Dehlin [05:26:06] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:26:07] Like, what we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan is nothing compared to what these guys are seeing. And I'll be the. At least nothing I saw in Iraq and Afghanistan, like, I wouldn't even call that a war that I experienced. It was a conflict. And because we had all the artillery, everything, I mean, and they weren't dressed in uniforms.

Sean Dehlin [05:26:25] They were playing, like, in Afghanistan and Iraq, right?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:26:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But trench warfare coupled that with drones with bombs. I mean, we're talking World War I, 21st century combined.

Sean Dehlin [05:26:39] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:26:40] The worst of both worlds.

Sean Dehlin [05:26:41] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:26:42] You know, and then not only that, but people forget the Ukrainians and the Russians are. They're cousins. Yeah, they're cousins.

Sean Dehlin [05:26:49] Yeah. A big chunk of Ukrainian speakers. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:26:51] Yeah. So. And then, you know, I have a picture on my phone, it's a Russian and he's in a foxhole, and you can tell he's been injured on his leg. And the picture is from above him from a Ukrainian drone. And the Russian is in there. Regardless of what you think of Russia, the Russians in there doing this, and he just has a look of fear on his face like, please just don't kill me. That's somebody's son, brother, husband. Yeah, you know, and, you know, and I, I remember reading the comments because I always like to read the comments and man, there's people like, well, they shouldn't have invaded. Oh, he's getting what he gets. All the, the Russian, Russian Slav gets where he gets. And, you know, maybe if I was Ukraine, I'd feel the same way, you know, but from the luxuries of my home and where I'm seeing this and I'm like, who are we as a human race where only we are dumb enough to kill each other? What people don't think about is Putin doesn't, he doesn't have the Moscow elites send their kids. A lot of these guys are conscripts that don't even want to go to Ukraine and fight and they're being forced to.

Sean Dehlin [05:28:09] That was a point, I think. And again, I'm, I am no Trump defender, but I think that was a point Trump was making recently. Is, doesn't Washington sometimes send the poor kids to war? And the rich and the, and the rich, rich people's kids go to Ivy League sometimes? Like, don't we do that too?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:28:27] We have a volunteer army.

Sean Dehlin [05:28:29] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:28:30] I had many POs that were ivory League educated. I had my best friend Marcus, he was a E7 in the army with the master's degree. So, you know, I don't think it's like that for America. And sometimes I take offense when I hear that because we are a volunteer army. There are people in the army that are like, their GP levels are off the charts. They just have a desire to serve.

Sean Dehlin [05:28:55] Like, you mean they're super intelligent.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:28:57] Super intelligent. They could be on Wall street. They could do anything. I mean, you look at. Here's the thing I like to talk about. I don't mean to get off track on that, but there are so many companies that are starting up by veterans now. Black rifle, coffee, fieldcraft, I mean, you name it, all these non profit organizations that are started by veterans that served. I mean, this is, I'm going to say it's the greatest generation, but it's a pretty darn good generation of veterans, you know, that fought in the 20 years in the war. So I, I wouldn't compare. That's what makes our military different from, say, a lot of militaries in Africa where they're forced into the military and they don't get paid anything. You make a pretty good living in the military, if I'm being honest. I mean, you know, during 2008, when people were Losing their jobs and homes were going under. Military guys knew they had money, they had jobs. I had privates that had all iPhones and a nice truck, you know, so, but, so that's what makes us different than a lot of like Russia where they're being conscripted, they're going to prison saying, hey, you guys on death row, I'll tell you what, if you come join us, we're going to put you on the front lines. But if you survive six months, you can have your freedom. Nine percent of them die. But we don't do that. I mean, so with Russia and Ukraine, a lot of those Russians are conscripts that don't even want to be there. But, but what's the answer, man? I don't know. Yeah, what, you know, what I felt six months ago to, what I feel now is totally different. Like 6 months ago I was thinking, I'll let the Ukrainians decide what they want to do because they want to get everything back. But I'm to the point where I'm like, man, I was killing for a couple of oblasts and half of those people in those old blasts are Russian speaking Russians.

Sean Dehlin [05:30:55] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:30:55] So let Putin have it and let's just stop killing. You know, and if we had to tell Putin, hey, we won't let Ukraine into, what's that, NATO? Yeah. If we, if we don't, you know, 20 years, Ukraine can't join NATO. Maybe that will appease them. But if we look at the headlines now, it's almost as if, like they want to push Russia into a war. I mean, Poland just came out yesterday and said, hey, we want the US to help us with the Black Sea because the Russians are getting aggressive when we think they're going to invade, with what? All their stuff's getting destroyed in Ukraine. They couldn't even save Syria. I know, they couldn't even help out Syria. You know, and, and Syria, you know, Broussard, even Syria, that hurts Russia and Iran. Well, now we got a new mix in the game of geopolitics. Syria.

Sean Dehlin [05:31:44] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:31:44] You know, so do I think Russia wants to take back their former glory? I think it's a nice talking point that war hawks want to talk about. But why are we getting involved? Why, why are we spending billions and billions and billions of dollars when we have people in America poor and suffering?

Sean Dehlin [05:32:04] I mean, the only argument I can think of is, you know, he could continue on to Poland and he could continue on to Eastern Europe. I mean, that's the, that's the lesson from World War II. That I think many are operating under.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:32:18] Yeah, yeah. But let's look at this. Poland. I've worked with the Poles. They are warriors. If Russia tried to avoid invade Poland, they'd be. Poland would be marching on Red Square in a month. They are. They are warriors. They're really equipped. They're motivated. That would be a horrible idea of Putin. He can't even defeat Ukraine. How's he gonna defeat Poland? Seriously, I've worked with the Lithuanians, the Latvians. I mean, all these countries that Russia used to own in Russia, in Lithuania, in their capital, they have a museum that's all about how the communists killed all the religious leaders. And you walk through there, it's like walking through the Holocaust at Washington, D.C. these people don't want Russia. They will fight tooth and nail to not be under. And I don't think Russia wants their Soviet Union empire back. I mean, people say Putin talks about it. Putin can never do that.

Sean Dehlin [05:33:21] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:33:22] So let's just cut with the games and start saving lives. And, you know, I think that's the way, you know, you might not like. People might not like Trump. And, yeah, as a character of a man, it's whatever. But if he can stop these wars, more power to him.

Sean Dehlin [05:33:43] Interesting.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:33:43] But sometimes war is the answer and sometimes pieces the answer, and that's. That's the nuance and dichotomy of it, you know?

Sean Dehlin [05:33:53] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:33:55] You know, war was always waiting for mankind.

Sean Dehlin [05:34:01] Powerful. Yeah. Man. It's just so confusing.

Margi Dehlin [05:34:05] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:34:05] And the scary thing leading up to that was people were talking about a civil war in America.

Sean Dehlin [05:34:11] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:34:11] I mean, I heard a lot of rhetoric about that.

Sean Dehlin [05:34:13] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:34:13] You know, my community, people. I know, the people who. That I know that don't want civil war the most are veterans, because they know what war does.

Sean Dehlin [05:34:24] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:34:24] So when. When guys like. Like when I say guys like me, I mean military guys, when they hear about civil war, they just kind of rolled their eyes like, come on, man. Like, nobody wants a civil war. You know? And people are like, this is the worst time our country's ever been. Not really. Did you ever hear the Civil War?

Sean Dehlin [05:34:44] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:34:44] You know, when President Grant was president after the Civil War and he had to take care of, like, the south and reconstruction, our country almost went through another civil war just through that alone, you know, like, we've had some bad times in this country. This is nowhere near what people want to be. This is a. It's a great time to be alive. It's a great time to be an American. It's our economy, you know, you listen to people. People like Peter Zion and these geopolitic guys. I mean, according to them, everything's going great for us. Like, like, it's almost like we do it to ourselves like this. It's not as bad as people want to make it seem. Like as a country, we're doing pretty dang good.

Sean Dehlin [05:35:31] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:35:31] I think, you know, oh, I mean, well, people say, hey, you know, the 50s are the best times for who? I mean, if you have my color, probably was.

Sean Dehlin [05:35:43] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:35:43] But if you're a woman or darker color.

Sean Dehlin [05:35:47] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:35:48] I mean, you look at it now, I mean, pretty good times, I think, you know, I'm not black, but I would say, like, you know, anyone in this country, this is the point I want to make. Anyone in this country, it doesn't matter what color, gender, if you're willing to work hard. This country is a country where you can actually succeed and accomplish your dreams. There's hardly any country in the world where you can do that. America, you could be born dirt poor, but if you're willing to put in the work and you have a dream and you can manifest what you want in life if you keep chomping at it, America is a place where you can make that happen.

Sean Dehlin [05:36:27] Yeah. And some people are going to go, well, that, that's what someone says when they have a lot of privilege. But you lived in a trailer park growing up.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:36:35] I was raised by a mom that didn't want her. Her ex husband to pay child support.

Sean Dehlin [05:36:39] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:36:40] So, I mean, I, I've lived in the bus. I lived in the bus in Blackford, Idaho. I didn't tell that story. I lived in the bus with my dad. But, you know, because of the military and, and hard work and, you know, I have a amazing wife that, you know, always had my back. You know, I always say, if you want to be successful, marry up. You know, I married up. You know, I married a wonderful woman.

Sean Dehlin [05:37:04] But it sounds like the church, the Mormon Church, was actually good for you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:37:09] So I didn't tell you the story, John, but in 2012 13, I reached out to you on messenger and I was kind of explaining everything like I was going through. And your answer to me at that time was, ross, I think you should stay in the church for now. And you were absolutely right. And I am grateful for the church in my life. It was the structure I needed. My fathers were my home teachers. My fathers were my boy scout leaders. My fathers were my best friends. Their dads were the bishops. I mean, the day I came home from my mission, my younger Brother came out of prison, I had a different friend structure than he did, you know. So for me, the church was everything. You know, when I graduated high school, I was probably a couple levels above Neanderthal. I mean, I was like, it just nothing clicked. And I told you the story of MTC where everything came together for me and I found a beautiful woman, married her. We have beautiful children. One just got married in the temple. I don't hate the church. I don't have anger towards it. I understand the church does hurt. A lot of people are church leaders dishonest in my opinion, A lot of times they are. But in my life, it was what I needed and it kept me out of trouble. And I will always be grateful for that, always. I will always be thankful that a single mom didn't have to worry about her son because his circle of friends were kids that were doing the right thing and their parents, especially their dads, looked after him. When we did 50 mile Boy Scout trips into the wind rivers, I can't be more grateful than that they took care of me. And so even now I'm not a believer member, but when I get asked to do something for young men's, you bet I'll help out because I was that young man that needed help one day. So service can be found anywhere. And I'm, you know, I don't want people to come away from this podcast thinking I went through the five stages. I had anger at one time, I was pissed at one time, felt like I was lied to. But once I got past that and realized, just like war, humans will always be humans. Humans will always be humans. Leaders of the church are humans too. And they have felt they lie. I mean, they do human things. But at the end of the day, the church was a beautiful place for me. Steak dances, I had wonderful times. Road shows, some of the best times I had. I wish we still had those. It was a beautiful place for a kid in the trailer park. That was feral like I was. It was exactly what I needed. And I'm thankful that the powers that be, I feel like put that into my life to. To make sure this idiot here, Neanderthal man, at one time would be taken care of.

Margi Dehlin [05:40:30] I was going to bring up something, just maybe in closing, unless John has something else to say, and I don't want to bludgeon this, but I remember Esther Perel in one of her podcasts talking about, I think it's so her parents are survivors of war. Do you know Esther Perel at all? Does work kind of around relationships. And anyway, one of the things she was talking about with her genealogy of survivors of war was just that there can oftentimes be holders, meaning people that come back from war and never speak of it. They just hold it. And that's the way they protect the people they love, is they just are like, it happened to me and may you never know it. You know, and then there are tellers, people who actually do tell the story, and it's just. It neither is better than the other. It's just a different way of how we approach. Right. Experience. And my question to you, you're a tell. You are telling now, but have you been a holder or have you been a teller throughout and this is your time to tell? Like, how would you talk about that?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:41:45] Like, my kids don't know a lot of those stories. And with the military, you don't tell stories because everybody has stories and nobody wants to hear them. So I think maybe a little bit of both. I have a select few that I trust enough to open up a little bit. My wife being one of them. My good friend that's still a member of the church, very active in the church, But other than that, his name is Travis Ross. If you're watching this, buddy, I love you. But no, because, you know, all those years of harboring the pain of leaving the church, there's no one to talk to.

Margi Dehlin [05:42:35] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:42:36] And when it comes to war, I just think people are so tired of hearing war stories. They just want to get on with it. And I don't blame them one bit. I knew coming into this that this was going to be emotional for me. I didn't mean to cry, but, you know, some of the things that you brought up have really, like, unlocked things in my mind that you talked about it. I was like, yeah, that's, you know, like, yeah. But, yeah, I. I don't know. I think telling. I. I believe telling this good, you know, getting it off your chest. And I think for me, that this experience will be a good way to kind of dig it into the ground and just let it be. My story's out there now I can continue on with my mission in life and just.

Margi Dehlin [05:43:32] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:43:33] So grateful for this opportunity. Man. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to read that code.

Sean Dehlin [05:43:37] Yeah, please.

Margi Dehlin [05:43:39] That's a great way to end.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:43:40] It's going to take me just a minute to find it.

Sean Dehlin [05:43:45] Well, I'm just so grateful that you would be willing to be so vulnerable. I'm struck by that. I don't know if I misunderstood the comment that of all the things you experienced in the military, including deployments, multiple deployments, that leaving the church was the hardest thing. Is that what I heard?

Leaving the Church and Finding Peace

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:44:16] Oh, yeah. Losing my mom, losing that, like, even the church was a soul destroyer for me because I just felt like for so long that God would let me know. No, this is just a test. You passed it. Here's your answer. For years, I was waiting for that. It never came until I left the temple, and I got that voice saying, this is the answer. You're on your path. But, yeah, it was painful, man. It was so painful. And not being able to tell anyone because, you know, I didn't want to be looked at as the apostate.

Sean Dehlin [05:45:00] Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:45:01] I was always the strong one in my family that led. Led by example because of the church. Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [05:45:09] I've had, you know, we all know that LGBT people can take their lives, and I've had so many of them tell me that losing their faith in Mormonism was way harder than being gay. So, I mean, I guess that's why this podcast tries to help people.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:45:26] I remember that elder's name, Elder Org. Do you remember interviewing the. Yeah, that was the two degrees of

Sean Dehlin [05:45:34] Kevin Bacon Mormon stories. Yeah.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:45:37] He served at the same time that I was serving.

Sean Dehlin [05:45:43] But

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:45:46] having said all that, I don't regret growing up in the church. And what I tell people is I look at it like school. And I'm not trying to put anyone down by saying this, but. But for me, middle school, elementary school was a good thing for me. Middle school was a good thing for me. High school was a good thing for me. College was a good thing. I needed it in my life at the time. But do I want to go back? No. You know, I'm past that now. And that's not to say that those who are still in the church are in those levels. They're not. If it fulfills you, I'm so happy for you. Like I said, I still am very involved. I'm not very involved, but I helped out. I help out with nest, and I still go. I'm more active than probably a lot of acting or believing people. You know, excuse me, but it was my mission, was everything. It set me up for a pattern in my life that set me on a road of success, hard work, goals, loving people, getting along with people, traveling the world. If I wanted to unlock in my brain to understand things, to study. And I believe that Higher power knew at the time that Marty needed that in his life. It had nothing to do with Mormonism. It had to do with this young man needs this in his life at this time. And I believe that I don't have a vendetta against the church. I don't hate the LDS church. No, I love the church. I love the culture. And I'm so thankful that it was in my life because I needed it at that time so much. So. This is my Bushido code. I wrote this at a time in my life when I was struggling with the cold, you know, and I kind of had left Mormonism. I experienced this traumatic thing where I killed a guy that ended up being. Maybe he wasn't innocent. Maybe he was. But in my eye, he didn't have anything that validated that he was the enemy.

Sean Dehlin [05:48:10] This is a different person.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:48:12] This was the old man.

Sean Dehlin [05:48:13] Okay. Okay.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:48:14] Yeah. A 156 investigation went on. I was cleared of it, but I still struggled with it. Now I was watching Dexter, and the cold episode came on. So this called my Bushido code, says love. Love is a motivating force behind the warrior. A warrior has love, love of a higher power, love of family and everything of virtue. He loves with all his heart, might, mind and strength. He loves his fellow man as himself. His love is sincere and true. Without love, he is no longer a warrior, but a common man who is ever searching. Love is a force that drives his soul and calms his heart in battle. Truly, all he is and all he will become comes from the power of love. Honor. A warrior has only one mortal judge of honor, and this is himself. The thoughts he holds and the decisions he makes when all alone reflect who he truly is. A man of honor does not have to give his word. He does not have to promise what he says he will do. He does. He is completely sincere in all things, his thoughts, words and deeds. He respects his leaders and speaks no ill of them. That's kind of a Japanese Bushido code. The way he lives his life is his honor. He would rather die than lose that honor. Humility. A true warrior knows there is a higher power in the universe, a designer of his soul, and he will forever seek his guidance in his sojourn through mortality. A warrior is not prideful, boastful, or outspoken, but lives with quiet dignity. He shows his humility by the way he speaks and treats others. His life is simple, and he lives it with thrift. He does not have to force others by shouting or threats. He does not have to prove his worth with expensive things, but by modesty and dignified strength. Skill. What sets a warrior apart from the common soldier is his knowledge, dedication, and skill. A warrior has been trained in the art of war. Though he does not actively seek out war, he stands ready to strike when called upon. He has been taught special skills. And through constant training, he hones these skills to a razor sharp edge. With this skill comes great responsibility. He will never use them to harm the innocent, but to protect. Through his knowledge and skill, the man becomes a sword. Devotion. A warrior is devoted to a cause higher and nobler than himself, wherever it may be found. A warrior's devotion is more than a simple desire. It's a consecrated dedication. It requires him to overcome his own desire for the greater cause. Each man must decide what he will be devoted to with that dedication. There must be a balance. A balance between the spiritual, physical and natural. In it will be found substance and peace for a life worth living. A devoted soul gives meaning to a warrior's life. Courage. This is a must. A warrior must have courage. He must be brave enough to overcome the fear that engulfs a man's heart during a mission, as well as the courage to stand up for the right when the vast majority do not. There are many forms of courage. A warrior who is full of faith, love and devotion will overcome and conquer any fear, especially the fear of failing. The road a warrior travels is not for the faint of heart. Therefore, it demands his heart to be full of courage. Duty. I'm almost done. Duty begins by knowing who you are and is required of you. Just merely doing what is asked of you is not duty. Going beyond what is required by doing 100% and then some is your duty. When other men finish, the warrior continues on. He does not fail others in his task. Peers do not have to worry about pulling his weight. Instead, he is the workhorse. He does not do this to impress others, for he knows at the end of the day, he answers only to himself and his maker. The last one, selfless service. A warrior serves his fellow man. He may have all the talent, strength and vain looks of a warrior God, but if he does not give of his personal time to serve others, he is nothing. Self restraint and sacrifice are things weaker men know nothing of. This is what separates a warrior from others. His true strength lies in his ability to control the flesh and be completely selfless for others. Once he has mastered this, he is a true warrior. Anyways, I wrote that in Afghanistan in December of 2010.

Sean Dehlin [05:54:04] Powerful. Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [05:54:05] Thank you.

Sean Dehlin [05:54:09] Well, Ross, Marty, Martin, what a beautiful and a powerful story you shared with us. There's never been anything like this on Mormon stories and I doubt there will be again. So yeah, I know it's going to help a lot of people.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:54:23] Thank you, I hope.

Margi Dehlin [05:54:25] Yeah. Thank you. We honor you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:54:28] I appreciate it.

Margi Dehlin [05:54:28] Thanks for telling us.

Sean Dehlin [05:54:31] Thank you for your service.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:54:33] Thank you.

Sean Dehlin [05:54:35] And thanks for being willing to share your story.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:54:40] Well, thank you for letting me come on here and share my story so my family can know why and so my prosperity will know that you know why.

Sean Dehlin [05:54:53] Yeah, it's our pleasure.

Margi Dehlin [05:54:58] And it'll go way beyond that, I feel. So. Anyway, we appreciate you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:55:04] Thank you.

Sean Dehlin [05:55:07] All right. Any final words or you. You. We're only five hours in.

Margi Dehlin [05:55:13] I'm plenty talked out.

Sean Dehlin [05:55:14] It's five. Five hours and eight minutes. Oh, really?

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:55:17] It feels like two hours. Holy cow. What to fetch.

Sean Dehlin [05:55:24] Well, thanks for coming. Thanks, Marty.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:55:26] All right. Thank you, guys.

Sean Dehlin [05:55:27] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If they want to reach out to you to thank you for your words. How do they reach you.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:55:39] Through Mormon Stories?

Margi Dehlin [05:55:41] Put it in comments on YouTube.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:55:42] Put the comments on YouTube, I guess.

Margi Dehlin [05:55:43] Yeah.

Sean Dehlin [05:55:44] Okay. Put the comments on YouTube and you're always welcome. If you have feedback to email us@mormonstoriesml.com we can forward those on. But thanks to everyone who donates to make Mormon Stories possible. Thanks to Julia and Maven and Gerardo and Brooklyn, Margi and everyone behind the scenes. Thanks, sweetie. Thanks for being close today.

Margi Dehlin [05:56:09] Oh, yeah. I'm really grateful I was.

Sean Dehlin [05:56:13] Yeah. Stay in touch, Marty.

Ross "Marty" Martin [05:56:15] Okay, I will.

Sean Dehlin [05:56:16] All right. Thanks for joining us today, everybody. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.