Welcome and Introducing Leah Young

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 20, 2021 and today we are so thrilled to have in studio a face that will be familiar to, I'm guessing most, if not all of you. Today we have back in studio. In studio for the first time actually, because we interviewed her and her wonderful family at her home in Ohio.

Leah Young [00:00:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Leah Young, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

Leah Young [00:00:33] Thanks so much. I'm really excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] For those of you who are brand new to Mormon Stories podcast, you may not know who Leah Young is, but I will tell you. I was telling Leah and Cody and their wonderful family just earlier today. They came to our home and holiday. We hung out for a little bit. If I had to name three sort of family faith transition stories in the history of Mormon Stories podcast, I would have to say the Lee and Cody and Brinley Young Mormon Stories podcast episode is top three for sure in terms of views, in terms of listens, in terms of downloads, but also just in terms of feedback of how many people have been truly impacted by their story. They've been on Mormon Stories podcast several times. I got to know Leah while she was having her faith transition before her husband Cody had even kind of really dove in to what was going on. Margi and I became friends with Leah slowly as Leah was going through a transition. Then her husband Cody followed and eventually they started this lovely support group for faith transitioners in the Ohio.

Leah Young [00:01:51] Central Ohio.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Central Ohio area. It became a really fast growing and meaningful group to so many people and of course that became a problem for the LDS Church. So there are other episodes. So we interviewed Leah and Cody and Brinley at the time, their 15 year old daughter.

Leah Young [00:02:10] Yeah, 14 or 15. 14 or 15.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] And it was just an epic, multi hour, heart wrenching and inspiring interview of this beautiful in it to win it Mormon family, super orthodox Mormon family, like usually like one or the other in the marriage, you know, they were both in it to win it. And anyway, it's just a fantastic, gripping faith transition interview and we got Brinley as a bonus because she is and was a super articulate teen who was willing to talk about her experiences. And so if you have not watched it yet, pause this, go listen to those early episodes and then you can come back and check this out. But there's more. Because they were doing so much good for the people transitioning in the central Ohio area, the Mormon Church felt like it needed to punish them for doing too much good because as we learned from the musical Wicked, no good deed goes unpunished. So Leeah and Cody were called into a disciplinary council.

Leah Young [00:03:18] And.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] And we covered that on Mormon Stories podcast, including a recording of the disciplinary council, which is also heart wrenching and profound and inspiring. So we had them on again for that. And then just last week, we had their wonderful daughter Brynlee, who is now 18 years old, just had a birthday. She's going away to college. We kind of did a top seven things Brinley has learned as a Post Mormon Teen. So that was last week's episode. So today we're following it up with Leah and an episode on seven things Leah has Learned as a Post Mormon mom. And if that's not enough, Leah, when we interviewed her last, was kind of a star in the company, Rodan and Fields, really successful. And while she still has some relationship with Rodan Fields, Leah did this amazing epic jump where she became a coach, a life coach for women, for men, for families, but specifically doing a heavy specialty in people experiencing a faith transition. And so Leah's become a successful coach. We'll have her tell us what the website is for that. But she has turned the lemon of a faith crisis, and I would say the gift of a faith crisis into a life pursuit that has blessed just hundreds and hundreds of lives at this point, if not more so. Leeah, again, welcome back. What did I miss in my. In my introduction?

Guest [00:04:55] What did I miss?

Leah Young [00:04:56] Thank you. That was really generous.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] What did I get wrong?

Leah Young [00:04:58] I appreciate it. You got nothing wrong. And we've just really felt fortunate to be able to share our story. I know that there's so many stories that go unshared and we're just the face of one story, but I know that. But our story really does represent so many families who are going through this and I get to see many of them in my practice, and my heart just feels so drawn in compassion and empathy. And also a part of me just feels excited for these people who are going through this transition because like you said, it is a gift in so many ways. So I'm really glad to be back and I don't think you missed anything.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Okay, excellent. All right. And as always, as you know, as the past couple months have allowed, because of the support of you, our listeners, we are super thrilled to have back in studio our producer and my co host, the Kara Burrell. Kara, how you doing?

Guest [00:06:00] Hey, John. Hey, Leah.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] We missed you in the Brinley episode.

Guest [00:06:03] I know. And I was really disappointed because I have been editing and making tiktoks out of the Young's family story for a while. So it was being like, I missed out on a celebrity, but I've got Leah here at arm's reach, basically. So, John, you always give really good introductions to our guests, but there is no exaggeration of how epic the Young's entire story has been. I've edited some of their videos, put them on TikTok, and they went insanely viral. Especially because I also, as a Provo girl, if you didn't know that, I'm also from Provo. So listening to your story, describing the Provo bubble, she's like, yep, Things about the CS letter that you would just never even think. That's. That's the thing you said in your interview a lot like, I wouldn't even think of these things. Same thing. World crashing down. Provo Girl, I got you. I got your back. So I'm just excited that you're here. Get ready to get into this.

Leah Young [00:06:52] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] And Carol, while we're on the topic, how is our TikTok channel doing? Tell our listeners about the channel, why we care about it, and how it's doing.

Guest [00:07:02] Oh, TikTok, we can just reach so many people so quickly. And as we know this, Mormon Stories, it's a very long format podcast, but we tell amazing stories here. We let people share things on that are on their heart, their most vulnerable moments, and those are sometimes hard to find and get into if you don't even know what Mormon Stories is from our YouTube channel or the podcast. So I have been finding some of the best clips and editing them down to under three minutes, sometimes under one minute, putting them on TikTok. I shared a video of Cody and Leah talking about trying to read the CS letter together. And like, you know, things that are. Things are kind of shocking to people that on the. On TikTok, you might come across a video and you never understood that there is a document that contains a lot of the problematic problem, you know, things in church history. And this is a couple of Mormons describing the event of reading that. And that was incredibly validating to other Mormons, to other ex Mormons, to other people who have left high demand fundamentals, religion. So it is just so good at disseminating the information and the stories and people are connecting with them and then that's drawing more eyeballs and listeners to the podcast and the YouTube channel. So all around, it's. I think we're probably at maybe55,000 followers on tick tock now. Yeah. And just, you Know, uploading videos. If I could do that all day, I could do 10 edits per, you know, five hour interview that we're doing here. I could probably tell, pull 10 clips if I had nothing else to do. But I'm also here and I'm also. Somebody said on YouTube, John, that you need to give me a better introduction of more than just timestamps and you do give me quite the compliments. But Benjamin wants to know what their donations go to goes to editing those TikToks doing the timestamps, producing this everything just being a second John de Lin and everything, him outsourcing his brain to doing a lot of these other things. So letting Tick Tock take off, John and I are going to be putting up more informational videos together. We have a thousand projects in the work, it feels like.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] So, yeah, excellent. Yeah. And you know, I, I just say, and I, we want to get to Leah, but I'll just say one last thing. I'm sure that there are some of you who just listen to this just on your iPhones or your androids or you watch on YouTube and you're probably like, why do they keep talking about TikTok? I'm going to tell you today I was standing in a line with Margi getting coffee, I do drink coffee. And this 20 something drives up, rolls his window down, points at me and says, are you that TikTok guy? I have never in my, you know, in the past 16 years been identified as the TikTok guy. And that's, that happens like multiple times a week. And it's, it's for no other purpose than to reach more people. And this is where the youth are, this is where the 20 somethings are, this is where teens are. We believe in informed consent for all, not just for 30, 40 and 50 and 60 somethings. And so we feel like it's super important and that's why we're talking about it. It's not because we support, you know, anything, any particular platform. And also, by the way, Kerry, you've been uploading things to Instagram as well. The TikTok videos get uploaded to Instagram and that's also been a really important way. So I just wanted to emphasize that thanks to everyone who supports everything that we do because we're reaching literally, I mean, sometimes millions more people, over a million more people than we would have because of that investment. So great job, Kara.

Guest [00:10:29] Yeah, it's huge. But thank you to the donors for making all of this possible. Really?

John Dehlin [00:10:33] Yeah.

Guest [00:10:34] And the guests for obviously coming on and being vulnerable enough to share. So.

Leah Young [00:10:39] Yeah.

Seven Lessons as a Post-Mormon Mom

John Dehlin [00:10:40] All right. So, Leah, you. I asked you to prepare seven lessons you've learned as a post Mormon mom, and I'm sure that was hard to pick seven because you are in the business of helping other people navigate all sorts of things about their life. So I don't know if we want to just jump into the seven or if you want to tell us kind of like, do you want to give us a little bit of an update on what's been going on since your last interviews or.

Leah Young [00:11:04] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:11:05] Yeah. So an update. It's been, my goodness, how long has it been? So maybe three years since our first interview and two years since our excommunication. About a little over two years. We actually just had our first post Covid gathering with our Central Ohio Mormon support community right before we flew out here to Utah, which was fantastic. We have Now, I think, 198 members in that group, which is quite a lot considering there's not as many Mormons in Ohio as there are in other areas. And we do screen everybody to make sure that they can be a safe part of the group and that they are experiencing some doubts and some questions. And so that's moving along really well. Shout out to Brad Bushman, who's really been. Yeah, he's really stepped up and taken a significant role in keeping that group going. Brinley just graduated from high school, which I'm sure she mentioned in her interview. I'm not actually sure of all that she mentioned in her interview or maybe even some of it. So I'm excited to hear her interview. There might be a little crossover, but I really just let her decide what she wanted to share and I'm sure it was great. And so. So there might be some similar themes since she is my daughter. So she'll be going to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, in the fall. She's actually going to be going into psychology. And what intrigued her into that field was really our faith crisis and her experience of being coached by Margi and interacting with you as well as a support and a coach to us. And just the response that she received after our Mormon Stories interview and the opportunity she had to offer acknowledgement and kindness and love and validation to people from all over the world, teens and parents. So she's excited about that. And then we've got another kiddo in high school and one in middle school and one going into fourth grade, so we're busy. I am loving my coaching practice and engaged and involved with that, creating a course that's coming out this month.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] That's kind of a big. That's kind of a big life change. Right? I mean, you were. You were, you know, you were in a totally different business.

Leah Young [00:13:25] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] And then all of a sudden. Yeah, what's that like? How did that come about and what's that been like?

Leah Young [00:13:30] Yeah, so really, it came about, I think, primarily because not only of our experience, but then also because of the response after our interview. We had a big response after we shared our story and being able to hear what other people were going through. Just. I had so much compassion, really, for what they were experiencing. And I know that there's a lot of people out there who are suffering and that could use support. And so with some encouragement, I decided to become a certified life coach. And I went through the same program that your wife went through, Margi, through the Life Purpose Institute in San Diego. And now I have a coaching program.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] And I just have to say, like, there are a lot of mental health professionals in Utah. There are a lot of psychiatrists. There are a lot of psychologists. There are a lot of licensed clinical social workers. There are a lot of marriage and family therapists, and there are a lot of coaches, and everybody is backlogged because there is so much need. And so I was just so thrilled when I learned that you wanted to jump into the ring because we just. There's an insatiable need, and the more providers that come on, the more people get help, because it's just an endless. Something about Utah is generating an endless need of therapists and psychiatrists and coaches. So, anyway, I'm so glad you're helping out, because I can't help even a fraction of the people that come to me.

Leah Young [00:15:17] Right. Right. It's such a joy, and it's such an honor, and I feel like it's a gift to be able to do something where you feel you can really make a difference. And so I'm fortunate to be in a position where I don't need to work, but I choose to work. And that's a beautiful thing to want to work, to really want to do what you're doing and to do it just for that reason, really. And that's. I feel fortunate to be in that position.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] It's also, like, you're probably going to talk about this. I didn't. You know. But just finding meaning and purpose after a faith transition, something that you believe in, something you're passionate about, is just one of the most important keys to healing and growing and thriving afterwards is that one of Your seven issues. Is that one of your seven times?

Leah Young [00:16:05] That'll probably be woven in there somewhere.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] Okay.

Guest [00:16:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] All right, well, let's dig in. So. So we pick seven. There's a bunch of stuff I want to ask you. We'll go through the seven, and then if there's anything else that Kara I want to kind of follow up on, we'll do that.

Leah Young [00:16:17] Okay, that sounds great. All right, so I. So you asked me right before we came out to Utah to be on this interview, and I was so excited to do it, but that meant I had very little time to prep, and I think that was good because I was able to just really tune into myself and decide what came up. I didn't overanalyze it or think through it much. I wrote my thoughts down, and these are the things that came up. And the first three things are a little bit more personal experiences through my transition and coming out on this end. And then the other three points are more about relationship communication, which I think is really going to be helpful for your listeners, as I know it was for me to learn. Some of these things will be getting into a little bit of role playing. And so my hope is that what I share today can be useful for people who are listening to, incorporate maybe one or two or 10 things that I've said into their lives in a way that is supportive for them, that's meaningful for them. And so, yeah, here's the seven things

John Dehlin [00:17:19] that came, and the basic audience we're targeting is who just.

Leah Young [00:17:23] I think anyone experiencing a faith transition, some of the things I'm gonna share will resonate with potentially more with women, because there's some cultural programming that I think comes into play with some of the things that I've learned and some of the boxes that I've stepped out of, and some of the. Some of the ways that I set myself aside that I'm not willing to do anymore. So that might speak to women more, and then some of it will speak to parents. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] All right. All right. What's number one?

Lesson One: Devastating Experiences Can Fuel Growth

Leah Young [00:17:57] So number one is that devastating experiences can be a conduit for growth. And there's someone who I really love as who I would consider one of my spiritual mentors. His name is Sadhguru, and there's a quote he has that I'm going to read. And this was meaningful to me as we went through our transition. And he says, if only you can go through difficult times with inner grace, you will see that every situation we face is an opportunity to enhance our lives. And so, you know, and I see this as I. As I have clients where I am now. I get to sit with them and really understand where they're at. And I see the pain and I see the devastation. And for many, in that moment, it all feels negative. And I get it, because I've been there. And we do tend to lump it into this category of negativity, because who likes to be judged? Who likes to feel isolated, who likes to have their framework come crashing down? Who likes to be at ground zero when it comes to parenting? It's not fun, right? It's really painful. And yet I also feel like I can see a picture that they can't yet see. So while a part of me feels a great deal of compassion and empathy for them, there's this other part of me that feels a lot of excitement for them because I feel like, oh, you don't know it yet, but you are on the cusp of a massive transformation, right? Potentially, where you can level up in your relationship skills, where you can learn and practice boundaries that are going to be healthy for yourself, where you can tune into yourself in a whole new way. And so some of the parallels for me include things like, I remember initially just that loss of knowing, like knowing the answers to the existential questions. I felt like I was in absolute free fall. And that might be something that we would categorize as negative, but what that led to for me was realizing that where my certainty ended, my growth began, and just not having the answers.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] So feeling like you know everything and have that certainty is. It feels like it's a security blanket, but in reality, you're saying it can stunt your growth. Is that what you're saying?

Leah Young [00:20:17] That's what I'm saying. That was true for me, most definitely. And so the ability to read and listen to podcasts and study and learn without sort of the Mormon goggles on has just expanded the way I feel in the world, the way I see the world. I had a client recently share with me, and I actually, this is maybe a theme that I hear in my practice. You know, my heart just feels enlarged towards humanity. It's just. There's no. There's no judgments. It all falls away. And so my ability, I feel like, to expand and to assimilate information and just to be open really came from losing those answers. So what once felt really negative turned into such a gift in my life that I'm thankful for.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] But you almost want to panic at the time, right?

Leah Young [00:21:11] Total panic. I just, you know, like I said on the first Interview. I just remember crying and just like, this is the most cruel thing. How could they do this to us? I mean, I remember saying it would be easier to die because at least if I died, I would know where I was going. You know, if I died Mormon, then I would. I would at least think I knew where I was going. And I remember saying, this is more painful than dying. And that's really how it felt.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] So you really felt awful?

Leah Young [00:21:41] I really felt awful. And now I can look back and see that was a birthplace of massive growth in my life. And I'm so, so grateful that I felt that and that I felt such

John Dehlin [00:21:54] a message of hope.

Leah Young [00:21:55] Yeah. Yeah. So that's one thing.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] So if you're feeling horrendously awful about the loss of certainty. No, that. That's the beginning of amazing growth and fulfillment.

Leah Young [00:22:09] That's really been my experience. If you do the work, it can be. If you do the work. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Okay.

Leah Young [00:22:14] Another thing that felt really scary to me in the beginning. And I want to be sensitive because I know that this isn't everyone's experience, but for me, we weren't on the same page in our marriage. Cody was in a different place than I was.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Faith wise.

Leah Young [00:22:27] Faith wise. And I was committed to honoring him and to honoring his faith and his path and differentiating that. Mine looked different, and yet I didn't know where that would lead us. And initially, that was really fearful for me. And what that's now turned into is just radical vulnerability, closer connection. And again, I know that for some, this faith transition might mean the end of their marriage, and it might mean less vulnerability and less closeness. And so I just want to say, if you're in that place and you're listening to this, and I know many of my clients are in that place, my heart goes out to you. I am so sorry. It is totally unfair. But for me, that initial concern has resulted in a closer connection and more vulnerability, and I'm thankful for that.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] So you kind of treat it up in your marriage?

Leah Young [00:23:31] I kind of say that again.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Treat it up.

Leah Young [00:23:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] In the quality of your marriage.

Leah Young [00:23:34] I feel like we've leveled up together. Most certainly. Our communication is better on every level, and just how we support one another feels really different now.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] And that makes total sense to me. And again, it's not going to be everyone's experience, but oftentimes you're kind of married to the church, and as long as you're both doing what the church says, then it's kind of like everyone knows their role. But that doesn't mean there's real emotional intimacy and connection there. When the church falls out, it feels like this big loss, but then what you can fill that big hole with is improved emotional intimacy and connection where the church was just kind of taking up your time and space.

Leah Young [00:24:12] Yeah, yeah. We've gone deeper. Absolutely. Yeah. So another one for me was this loss of external validation. You know, it was very isolating. I felt invisible to people who I really cared about and to people who had at one point acknowledged me, maybe as their leader or as a good friend or as a good example to their children. And so it's painful to have that loss of external validation, like being that

John Dehlin [00:24:43] woman that everyone looked up to in the ward. And I don't mean it's. I'm not trying to say, like you're saying that, but I'm saying that I'm imagining that that's kind of a role that many Mormon women play, especially the ones who lose their faith because they cared so much. They were probably the. Some of the higher performers. The award, a Mormon award or stake, has got to be a massive source of external validation, and then you lose it.

Leah Young [00:25:06] Yeah. I mean, and it's not just the people. Right. You think you're being validated by God. Right. You think you're being validated by all those external authority figures, by all of the leaders. So it's not just your family, it's not just your community. It's the people that you've been taught to look to as those who validate if you're doing life the right way. So they're really.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] It even impacted your work and how people saw you a little bit at work. And we don't have to get into that too much.

Leah Young [00:25:30] It really did.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] You probably had a lot of loss.

Leah Young [00:25:33] Yeah. And so where I once received messages of kindness, of gratitude, of thankfulness, I would receive messages of. I remember receiving a message from someone who at one point had really looked up to me, and she said, you know, I just want to let you know that to be a good example to my children, I've decided to unfollow you and unfriend you, because I wouldn't want my children exposed to your kind of example, you know, and so that. That's hard. And so we might lump that into the negative category. But the positivity that's come from that, for me, is really tuning into myself and into my innate sense of worthiness and into releasing this need for validation from others. And I feel so much more grounded and rooted in who I am. Without needing to placate others or to, you know, have feel responsible for how others view me or validate me.

Guest [00:26:33] Would you also say the way that you just say you upgraded in your marriage, you're upgrading your friend group because you don't really want people around you that would judge you on the fact that you left the church and that that would be such a huge play that they have to now unfriend you. You're kind of upgrading in all the ways. Right?

Leah Young [00:26:48] I. Yeah, that's really been true for me and I'm gonna absolutely touch on that a little bit more. I do feel that my friend group has shifted friends both inside and outside of the church. I view relationships differently and some of the ways specifically that I view relationships we'll get into. But you make a really good point. And that is true for me. Absolutely. So that finding that internal rooting and grounding has been such a gift,

John Dehlin [00:27:18] I would just say it seems like if you can be that for yourself, you're less dependent on external sources. It's almost like a generator instead of a consumer of energy, you're generating kind of your own energy. It just seems you can be more self sufficient and self efficacious if you can provide that more for yourself than rely on it as much from other people. I don't know.

Leah Young [00:27:43] I think it's just such a healthy thing in general, especially for women. Right. In, in or outside of religion. Especially for women who've learned that their role is to support others and to appease others and to be kind and to keep sweet and to treat the other cheek and to make life work for everyone else and all those things. It is such a beautiful thing to. To not be able to control that narrative, to lose control of the narrative completely. And, and by doing so, you know, we can't rely on that validation anymore. And so we. We tune into ourselves in a new way.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] So Good.

Leah Young [00:28:18] It's really healthy.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:28:20] Another one that felt devastating was losing meaningful rituals. So, you know, all those things we do as Mormon families, from scripture study to the Christmas traditions to the Easter traditions, and we were, we had a lot of traditions that were meaningful and that were very much centered on the church. But losing, in losing those rituals, we had space to create new rituals that feel more aligned with who we are as individuals, that feel more aligned with our individual values and our family values. So again, losing rituals can feel devastating. But having space to create new rituals that are meaningful and what are a couple new ones. So now instead of scripture study at night, we have read a variety of books together. Rebel Stories, what's it called? Rebel Stories for Girls. There's a series called Real Stories. Real Character, Real Change, I believe it's called. In fact, every book that we've read is on my website under the resource tab.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] What's your website?

Leah Young [00:29:25] My website is balancedlivingwithleah.com and I have a lot of resources there for parents, including a ton of books that are secular in nature but that teacher good values and that are meaningful, and books that we read in what we now call circle up time. So in circle up time in the evening, we might read a chapter of one of those books. We might do a meditation as a family at mealtime instead of praying. We share best and worst or a gratitude. So, like, what was the best thing of your day? What was the worst thing of your day? Or we might just share a gratitude. What are we thankful for today at Christmas time? We used to give a gift to baby Jesus on Christmas Eve. That was the first gift that we, quote, unquote, opened. And we would commit to doing something, to becoming better, more righteous, more spiritual. Right. Kind of aligned with the church. And now we give a gift to ourselves. So how are we going to show up and support our ideals and our values this year? So we've made some of those tweaks that have been meaningful and there's more. And on my Instagram account, Balance Living with Leah, I talk specifically about these shifting rituals. So different bedtime rituals, different mealtime rituals. That's kind of a series I've been doing recently. So you can see those specifics on my Instagram account, which is Balance Living with Leah.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] Love that. Yeah, love that.

Lesson Two: Children's Pain During Faith Transition

Leah Young [00:30:50] Children facing pain during our transition. For those of you who heard our first interview, something I talked about was just how overwhelming it was to consider talking to our children about this and how we would go in circles about how do we do it, when do we do it? And I was so. It was just so upsetting to me that I was not going to be able to protect my children from the pain that they'd feel, from the potential friendships that they would lose. And the positive side of that is that our kids have learned relationship skills. They have learned to implement boundaries in their lives in new ways. They've learned about where, when, and how to share vulnerability. They've learned about active listening. And so they've become more wise and capable humans because of the pain that they had to experience and navigate through.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] I think we confuse pain with harm. And we think that if our kids Experience pain, that, that's bad. Pain doesn't necessarily mean harm, right?

Leah Young [00:31:56] Absolutely. And that really is the point. Like devastating experiences can be a conduit for growth.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Sometimes they're the only conduit for growth.

Leah Young [00:32:05] Yeah, I remember going through hard stuff in relationships as we navigated this. And one thing that I would do is I would ask myself questions. I would say, what can I learn from this experience? Or how might I do this differently next time? Because we can really get into this place where we feel like victims a lot. And that's understandable. There were a lot of times where I felt like a victim. I mean, probably for the first time in my life, when I realized what I did about the church for the first time, I felt like a real victim. But we can choose to step out of that if we can harness the power that these experiences have to offer us in how we choose to interact and grow through them.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] If you can think of one or two examples of a pain pain that your kids were feeling, you can name them or not, and then how they grew from that pain, just to kind of illustrate it.

Leah Young [00:33:07] Oh, that's a good question. So losing relationships, so losing some friendships,

John Dehlin [00:33:16] isn't that the worst as a parent, to see your kid lose friendships?

Leah Young [00:33:20] Yeah, it's really hard. And then also when they lost the friendships, being able to say, or the ability to acknowledge, maybe it's fear, you know, maybe it isn't me. Right. Like, what more is at play here? How can I, how can I see the situation and not just feel like, why me? Woe is me. Right. So gaining perspective on why might I lose relationships. Also, boundaries in relationships has been important for them. So how do I boundary? Maybe well meaning family members who might want to tell me that my parents are lost and fallen. How do I represent myself in that situation? And you know, our kids have maybe had some experiences to say, I know that you mean well and I appreciate that you love me. And yet these conversations are off limits in our relationship. And I want to be clear about that moving forward. I honor your faith and what's important to you, and it would be so meaningful for me to feel that in return. And so having them in those positions to use their communication skills has been really valuable.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] And I can just tell you, I know 40 and 50 year olds that don't know how to boundary their immediate and extended family. So to have your kids learn how to boundary, not just boundary others, but boundary adults as teens or kids, what a valuable lesson, right? So they don't get walked on in their lives or get manipulated or controlled in ways that aren't good for them.

Leah Young [00:35:01] Yeah, yeah, I think so. Absolutely. And then, you know, them being able to kind of going back to them, being able to understand that there's so much at play. You know, people have their own realities. And so for kids to be able to acknowledge someone else's reality without stepping into reactivity with that person has been powerful for them. Those are some of the things. There's more. So.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Great. Thank you.

Leah Young [00:35:27] Yeah. And then the final one I have here is just the loss of the parenting framework. Because when you're a Mormon parent, there's

Losing the Mormon Parenting Framework

John Dehlin [00:35:36] a framework established for chastity, word of wisdom, obedience. Go to church, Right?

Leah Young [00:35:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] Go to young women's, learn the gospel. Is that the framework you mean, or something else?

Leah Young [00:35:44] That's the framework. That and Boy Scouts.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] Girl Scouts.

Leah Young [00:35:47] Right. Byu, Mission Achievement Days, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] They're.

Leah Young [00:35:50] Get married in the temple to a returned missionary, be a mom. So you do feel, as a parent or. I felt. We felt, Kody and I, as parents, that we were in free fall. And how do you parent? How do you parent? So that is hard in the beginning, and it isn't always easy now. Right. But in losing that, we were able to develop core values as a family, which you encouraged us to develop. We've learned to say as parents, I don't know. Which is important for kids, I think, to hear their parents say, I don't know. Because, again, it's that uncertainty. You know, I think as Mormon parents, we felt this need to be sure and to have all the answers, and now we don't have all the answers. And that gives our kids space to explore options, to explore their own spirituality in different ways. And it gives them a safe space to talk about, you know, maybe I'm over in this camp, or maybe I'm over in this camp, and they know that they're going to feel our unconditional love as they experience different things, have different thoughts and feelings. And so the loss of that parenting framework, although initially it felt devastating, we really feel like it's enhanced our relationship with our kids.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] Yeah. Yeah. When you're a Mormon parent, it's so easy to just say, well, the prophet says this, or the scriptures say that, or, you know, we learned, whatever. What a powerful thing to be able to teach your kids to model not knowing and to model comfort and even excitement about admitting that you don't know something. And it becomes an adventure.

Leah Young [00:37:33] It does become an adventure. And so many times I've used this. I have this picture in my mind of. I feel like I'm an explorer and stepping out of the church gave me the opportunity to put on my, you know, put on my hiking shoes and I feel like I have my backpack and I'm just excited. There's so many things out there to explore. And I think my children observing that process of exploration has been helpful and meaningful for them to see. We can learn all sorts of things. There's. There's no need to fear. And we can choose what resonates with us or what feels meaningful for us or what aligns for us. So that initial fear has really turned into something beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] Yeah, yeah. Just to summarize that first point, I think that what the, what a high demand religion offers is just like a framework and a plan and that comfort and that perception of security. What it does not offer is growth. It's milk. It's never ending milk. But if you just, if you've really been paying attention in Mormonism, the meat kind of never comes. And when I say meat, I don't mean doctrinal meat, of course that never comes, but I'm talking about meat in your personal self development, meat in your relationship with your spouse, meat in your relationship with your children and just in your worldview and developing as a fully actuated developed human. And that's not to insult people that are orthodox believers, but if you just follow Richard Rohr, it's, it's everywhere. There's that first half of life where you're just doing everything you're told, then you realize none of it is what you thought in the second half of life. And Mormons do first half of life better than anyone. But that second half of life of truly going on in an adventure to see the big, beautiful, bright world. You're stunted when you're, when you're Orthodox, when you're an orthodox, orthodox orthoprax follower of a high demand religion. And so it's just a huge adventure. I love it.

Leah Young [00:39:36] Yeah, I think you're right. And something that comes to mind is this idea of a fairy tale castle. You know, you go to Disney World and there's this beautiful fairy tale castle there. And I, I feel like when we were Mormon, we were given this beautiful castle and there were these people outside of ourselves. They, they were the architects and they were the designer and they chose the colors and they chose all of the beautiful parts of this castle and they handed it to us and they said, you are going to be so happy in this castle. And then our castle just burned down. And I want to be so sensitive because I'm in a. I'm further out than some of the people listening to this. So I don't want it to seem like it's all positivity and roses because that castle burning down is so hard. And the truth is, I don't think that we ever recreate a fairy tale castle. We do, though, get to be the architects, we get to be the designers. We get to choose the colors and all of the forms that we might recreate in our different. As individuals or as families or as teens, it's not going to look the way that it did. And I think so oftentimes people leave and initially they want to recreate it. They want to recreate the church without the church. And the reality is, I don't think we're going to recreate that, but we're going to make something that's unique and beautiful and meaningful and individual. And it might be smaller and it might be sort of misshapen, and it might not, you know, it's not going to look the same. And often it's, you know, one step forward and two steps back. And as we're developing, as we're the architect of this new creation, we're slowly growing these roots in this tree system that we're developing. Right. We're digging down, we're creating a foundation that was more sure than what we had before. But it doesn't feel maybe as clean or as bright or as beautiful as it once did. And maybe at some point it feels even more beautiful. And that's how it feels for me, even though there's some pain that's still there. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Yeah, yeah. For me, it's rooted in reality versus in evidence based. What's that?

Guest [00:42:02] Just evidence based and going with science.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Yeah. It's rooted in reality, and it can become personalized to what we need and what we want and what we care about. So those two things matter to me, that it's good for me and those around me, and that it's rooted in reality, not. Not some manufactured.

Guest [00:42:24] And I love how you said, John, about how Mormonism does the first half of life really well, the second half, where sometimes it sends your growth. I had never really thought of that before. And I'm kind of just thinking about the way that my parents were converts and they did, you know, they had a lot of leveling up that the church helped them to do. And then there's a lot of stuntedness because they found the right answer. And as I told my parents, which is always a very difficult job to do, to tell your parents why you're leaving the true church that they love so much. And I had a very similar analogy to you, Leah, about this castle. And I told them that, like, the church to me was a scaffolding on a house that I built myself inside of. And it would be silly for me 20 years later to keep the scaffolding on a house that's already being built. And so, just like you were saying, like, it's going to be messy. And, yeah, I'm going to go in and I'm going to knock the walls down sometimes. I'm going to put in my own furniture. I'm going to change up the house now. I'm sorry, I have to tear down the scaffolding. Mind the dust. You know, when we leave the church, mind the dust. I'm figuring out some stuff really well for a while, so be patient with me. But it's not that I'm completely ungrateful for everything. Like, I just. I have my own house now that I need to build. Like, respect me as an adult that I can do that. So I love both of those. Those analogies and thoughts that you guys are sharing.

Leah Young [00:43:35] Thank you. You know, and something else I want to say is I want to be sensitive to the reality that the fairy tale castle doesn't mean that everything was a fairy tale. That's not what I mean. Because for a lot of people, the church is not a fairy tale. It's harmful, it's damaging, it's brutal, it's devastating. So I'm not trying to say that the fairytale castle means that everything happening inside of it is happy and glorious and wonderful. What I'm saying is it's the picture that's presented, the picture that's presented that everything's perfect.

Guest [00:44:09] The eternal perspective that it will always be, one day it'll be okay.

Leah Young [00:44:13] Exactly. So I just want to be sensitive because I know that for me and for others, they have a lot of pain and devastation while in what I just said was a fairytale castle. And then something else that Cody brought up, and I think this is in one of our previous interviews, in fact, when we were interviewed by one of our leaders, is, he was mentioning his metaphor was this crystal ball. And I won't go through his metaphor, but something he said is, you know, our crystal ball. And there are pieces that we want to keep. And so it's not that we have to throw everything away right from the castle or the crystal ball. We Might want to keep some parts of that. There are, I think, some parts of the church that are really beautiful and really good. And we can take the good and leave the rest behind.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] Love it. All right, well, that's one down. Yes, one down. So what's. So one down is devastating things can.

Guest [00:45:11] Devastating experiences can be a conduit of. To growth.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] To growth. Okay, what's number two?

Leah Young [00:45:17] So number two is I am in the driver's seat of my own life. I remember, actually, this experience before I decided to go on our first Mormon Stories interview. And I remember sitting literally in my driver's seat. And I remember thinking, am I going to do this? Is this aligned with my values? Is this aligned with what I feel like is best for me? And I realized at the time I did have a lot to lose. And it was this profound and meaningful moment all by myself because there was no one there. And I had been in a business where a lot of my accomplishments were kind of paraded and acknowledged. And it was in sharp contrast to that. I was all alone. And I decided that my being honest and the potential good that could come from that for a lot of people was more important to me than maintaining that external validation from a variety of different sources, because I knew I would fall from grace in their eyes. And it was just this quiet moment I had with myself of letting go. But I feel like it was a pivotal moment for me. And there's actually this poem. I don't know if I should read it now or save it till the end that I feel like is so beautiful that aligns with that idea. Should I read it now or at the end?

John Dehlin [00:46:51] Sure, go ahead.

Guest [00:46:52] Okay.

Leah Young [00:46:55] So here's a poem. It's called she Let It Go by Sapphire Rose. And I just want to dedicate this to all of the women out there primarily who need to hear it. So I'm going to read it. And this is kind of what I felt like, in a way happened to me in. In the car that day. She let it go. Without a thought or a word, she let it go. She let go of the fear. She let go of the judgments. She let go of the confluence of opinions swarming around her head. She let go of the committee of indecision within her. She let go of all the right reasons. Wholly and completely, without hesitation or worry. She just let go. She didn't ask anyone for advice. She didn't read a book on how to let go. She didn't search the scriptures. She just let go. She let go of all the memories that Held her back. She let go of all the anxiety that kept her from moving forward. She let go of the planning and all of the calculations about how to do it just right. She didn't promise to let go. She didn't journal about it. She didn't write the projected date in her daytimer. She made no public announcement and put no ad in the paper. She didn't check the weather report or read her daily horoscope. She just let go. She didn't analyze whether she should let it go. She didn't call her friends to discuss the matter. She didn't do a five step spiritual mind retreat or mind treatment. She didn't call the prayer line. She didn't utter one word. She just let go. No one was around when it happened. There was no applause or congratulations. No one thanked her or praised her. No one noticed a thing like a leaf falling from a tree. She just let go. There was no effort. There was no struggle. It wasn't good and it wasn't bad. It was what it was. And it was just that. In the space of letting go, she let it all be. A small smile came over her face. A light breeze blew through her and the sun and the moon shone forevermore. So that's kind of. That's beautiful, right? And that's kind of how I felt.

Lesson Three: The Power of Letting Go

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Tell us what, how that has applied to you and what that has meant to you and why that makes you feel the feels.

Leah Young [00:49:30] Yeah, I think it feels like freedom. I think it feels like freedom because

John Dehlin [00:49:41] what did letting go represent for you? Letting go, what did that mean for you?

Leah Young [00:49:47] Well, in that moment in that car when I decided that I was going to share my story publicly, what it meant is letting go of the opinions of others. It meant letting go of maybe being seen as a leader in my company, with my team. It let go of. It meant to me letting go of operating from a false self to appease or placate others. It meant letting go of being perfect or having it all figured out. It meant letting go of binary thinking, letting go of knowing

John Dehlin [00:50:30] all the security. Right, the perception of security.

Leah Young [00:50:34] Yeah, the perception of security. And it really did feel like a weight. I feel in many ways that I'm continuing to step into a reality where I release myself from holding this weight that at one point as a Mormon mom had me feeling like there were all these duties that were not healthy for me or helpful for me. You know, making others comfortable all the time or happy or continually being in the role of supporting someone else. Yeah. So to segue.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] Yeah. That's powerful. It's hard to let go.

Leah Young [00:51:20] Yeah. And it's a continual practice. I didn't just let go in the car that day. I would say I'm still trying to let go every day. So it's not. There isn't an end point to that for me. And I would say I'm at the beginning of my journey. I'm still really learning a lot in that department. So I actually found that that poem was a meditation on Insight Timer, which is a free app for meditation that I love. I have the paid version, but Insight Timer is a great free app. It has meditations, just tens of thousands of meditations. And that's where I found that poem is. It was as a meditation. In fact, it's on there several times by many teachers. So being in the driver's seat of my own life means that I needed to reframe a lot of the experiences that I was having. Some of these might not make a lot of sense without context, but people can apply this to their own lives and there is context there for me. And if you have any clarifying questions, feel free to ask. But actually I'm going to start with the lessons and then I'm going to go to the reframes. So some of the lessons I learned in this regard were not needing an invitation or acceptance or belonging in order to change and grow and shift, realizing that I was worth inconveniencing others. And this is new. This was very new to me.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] Very un Mormon for a woman.

Leah Young [00:52:51] Very un Mormon and very hard and uncomfortable specifically. I remember when I received my coaching certification, we have an office in our house that's in the front entryway. But I really needed a space that was private. And I do coach when kids are home during the summers. And I needed a place where they wouldn't hear me and where I could close it off. And we had just finished an addition on our home and there was a space that was going to be the kids music room. And they were so excited about that. And I remember being on a trip and thinking, creating this vision of what I wanted in terms of coaching moving forward and realizing I can't do this without a space and that's really the only space that will work. And I thought through it and I knew that this needed to be. And I brought my family together, including Cody, and I said, I want to share something with you that's important to me and a change that we're going to be making in our home. And that is that the room that was Going to be the dedicated music room is actually going to be mom's office. And I know that this might feel really hard for you, and I would love to have your support, but I don't need it. And that was important to me because I, you know, I. As a woman, as a Mormon woman, I feel like much of my adulthood was about supporting other people. I supported Cody through four years of medical school and six years of residency and, you know, and his work schedule up to this very day, and four human beings and growing them and raising

John Dehlin [00:54:30] them and birthing them. Birthing them, giving my body to them.

Leah Young [00:54:33] I mean, all that goes into that. And so there really wasn't a time that I felt like I made a decision that would really inconvenience others that was as meaningful as that moment was to say, this is gonna happen. And in fact, I don't need it to be comfortable for you or for you to even be happy about it. If you are, I would love that. But it's okay if you're not. But this is a choice that I'm gonna make, and this is something that's going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] I just have to say, if I'm just sitting in my Mormon brain, my Mormon brain is like the woman is the giving tree. The woman allows limb and limb and limb to be chopped off until it's a stump. And that's what it is to be a Mormon woman, and that's virtuous. And so there's my Mormon brand. Like, wait a minute. You gave up. You replaced a kid's music room for, like, a space where you could run a, you know, your coaching business? That's like my Mormon brain. But then I'm like, whoa, what does that teacher like? Let's say your daughters, some of them become mothers. I'm just now with my non Mormon brain, I'm thinking, what is that going to teach them?

Leah Young [00:55:45] Absolutely. And we talk about that. I talk about that with my girls.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] What could they learn from that?

Leah Young [00:55:50] That they matter, that what they want to do still matters, even if they do choose to become moms. And P.S. we did move the music space to another spot.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] They still got a space.

Leah Young [00:56:01] They still have a space. But you know, that what that office represents to me, I did this beautiful floral background to it, and I got a nice desk and I spent money on it. And that was actually a little bit uncomfortable too, that I'm spending money that isn't necessary, but that is going to support me in this coaching practice. And so what that represents to me is this idea of Being, you know, being in my own driver's seat and not needing. Not always needing permission to make choices that support what's important to me. So that's one valuable lesson, is I'm worth inconveniencing others. I'm worth it. And I. In my coaching practice, this is a real struggle for women. And I get it. I've been there. You know, what is the Mormon woman to do who's had four or five or seven children because God wanted her to, and who now is in the Middle ages of her life and is in this place where there's so many demands on her? This is hard. This is easier said than done. Learning how to say, I matter, too. I am a part of this equation. And sometimes that might mean you're not going to get the meals that you once got, or that might mean, I don't know what it'll mean. Right. But we are worth it. Like, we matter, too. And that's an important lesson that I've learned. Another lesson about being in the driver's seat of my own life is that no one is responsible to make me happy, and I am not responsible to make anybody else happy. So it's my job to find things that bring me joy and that fulfill me. And if there's things that aren't helpful for me to navigate away from those things or those people. And also that, especially as a mom, you know, oftentimes I think parents will say, what I want for my child is I just want them to be happy. Right? And I really don't think happiness is the goal in life because, you know, I think that we prioritize joy and happiness and positivity and all these things, but the reality is that we're going to experience just as much sadness or suffering or pain, right? And it's not necessarily bad. And so having that experience of not being able to alleviate the suffering of my kids through our transition was a gift because I realized I actually can't even make them happy. Even if I did my very best right now, I can't make them happy. And actually, it was never my job. I want to support them. I want them to help them navigate difficult things and painful things. But my goal isn't to make my children happy. It's not my job. It's not my goal. And my goal isn't to have kids who are always just happy. My goal is that my kids will be able to navigate whatever comes their way, whether it's joy or sadness, that they are resilient and that they have the Skills to show up for themselves, to boundary, to do things that help them facilitate whatever joy means to them in their life.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Yeah. One of the great lessons that I learned during my time studying psychology and secular Buddhism and things like that is that to pursue happiness is to actually increase suffering. Like life is always going to have suffering. That this is Basic Buddhism 101, Secular Buddhism 101. Life is always going to have suffering. And if you, if you expect that life is always going to just hand you happiness, you're going to be more miserable because you would have been expecting the happiness. And then life's continually disappointing you. And the irony is to expect and to accept that life is always going to hand you a healthy dish of suffering. You're actually going to have less suffering and more contentment. But that doubles and triples when you think it's your job to make somebody else happy. Because number one, they're not learning to make themselves happy, which is actually disabling them instead of enabling them. But again, you're chasing something that's ultimately out of your control. And by often trying to make them happy, you're sending them a message that they're not capable of figuring it out themselves and that you don't have confidence that they can figure out life, which then makes them have less confidence and less self efficacy for. So for all the reasons I have mentioned, that's a really sound approach that life pursuing happiness for yourself and especially for others is really a recipe for misery. Everybody's got to figure that that's kind of the great human journey, is to figure out meaning and contentment, you know, on your own. It's the hero's journey and everyone's got to make their own.

Leah Young [01:00:43] That's beautiful. I think, I think so too. And you know, when you were talking, what I was thinking of is sort of this binary world we live in in the church. Black and white, good and bad. And I think we do that in terms of joy, pain, you know, we lump. And that kind of gets back to the point number one. Right. Is there, is it possible that even in the midst of pain or devastation that we. That it isn't negativity, that it isn't all bad, that there is maybe lessons or growth? So can we even possibly come to a place where we see what we may have considered to be lumped into this bad pot? Can we see good in that? Can we get out of thinking good and bad? Can we just think maybe there's purpose and meaning in all of it?

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Yeah, I love it.

Leah Young [01:01:33] Yeah. Two other Things here for the lessons that I've learned in this category. Expecting someone else to change my life is a way of giving my power as a way of giving away my power. So not waiting or hoping or wishing that my husband or my children will change in a way that will make me happier, but really taking that responsibility on myself. And something else that's felt freeing is realizing that my measurement of success in any relationship is based only on how I show up and interact with. And this can be pivotal, I think, in a transition, because I think we so often feel like we're being drugged behind the car when we. When we feel like we are failing if someone else is showing up in ways that are hurtful or negative towards us. But when we can remember that we can only measure our success in relationships based on how we show up, what we say, not what comes back at us, it can really reduce some suffering.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] That's all you can control, really, is.

Leah Young [01:02:52] That's all we can control. And so, again, that's another way of taking a brick off of our shoulders and saying, I can allow you to be responsible for how you show up, for what you say, for how you engage with me. And I'm not responsible to change that or to have you conform to how I want you to do it. I'm only responsible, and I'm only measuring myself on how I'm showing up.

Taking the Driver's Seat in Your Own Life

John Dehlin [01:03:16] Yeah, this theme comes up a tiny bit, that religion, religions kind of are optimized to teaching people how to help the religion be healthy and strong. And so religions optimize people to optimize the religion. And so, of course, things like being selfless are really. Are really encouraged. Because. Because if. If your job is ultimately to make the system strong, then, you know, then that's kind of one thing. But if. If your job is to become as strong and as healthy as you possibly can, that's a different. That's a different matter altogether. And so we are conditioned to. To feel like being selfless is the ideal. But you know what, What I found time and time again, and I learned this from Oprah and from Maya Angelou and others, is you can't have, you know, you can't give what you don't have. And so the extent to which you can do self development, figure out what's important to you, figure out what turns you on, what gets you excited, what makes you as happy and healthy as possible, then you can give that to others. So shrinking your sphere of concern to the areas where you have actual influence and the place where you have the most influence is on yourself. Right. The place you have the most control is on yourself. You are a better parent if you have your act together. You are healthy in relationships if you are showing up as your healthiest self. Right. And so it's this weird paradox that to be self centered, meaning to be your best self, because that's what you can control most, improves everyone's life around you, including your close relationships. It's kind of a paradox, I think.

Leah Young [01:05:19] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, kind of going back to that theme of not being able to control how others show up and we can only control ourselves. I went back to a post I had done quite some time ago where I shared some of the reframes that I've done. And I think this kind of goes nicely in this category of being in my own driver's seat. Reframes I've used to help me navigate some really tricky times. So I'm going to offer those.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Yeah, please.

Leah Young [01:05:53] Yeah, I'll just read through them. So as I was facing some judgment, I reminded myself that judgment is a costume that fear wears to feel safe. So that was. I was able to kind of take myself out of the equation. This isn't really about me. I really can acknowledge that people are feeling some fear here. What I know to be true about myself has nothing to do with the opinions of others. Something I reminded myself of when I was met with a lot of opinions of other people. Whether it was, you know, from our excommunication or going on Mormon stories or just our shift in belief or, you know, I was able to really come face to face with those opinions. And so reminding myself that what I, who I know myself to be is sound and grounded and it's not up for discussion and it's not based on what other people think of me. I'm becoming a true friend to myself. I'm at peace with my decision to speak my truth, even though silence was safer. I reminded myself that healthy people seek first to understand. And I was striving to also be one of those people who sought to understand. I reminded myself that change is the point of existence, because I would. I was met with a lot of like, you've really changed. You know, like as if that's negative. And when I would hear that, I just thought, I absolutely have. I'm so thankful for that.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Owning that.

Leah Young [01:07:21] Yeah, owning that. Not in a unkind way towards them. These are really things I used in my own head to support myself through some, some challenging times. I will not betray myself or my values to be accepted in unhealthy relationships or unhealthy institutions. And that kind of gets back to what you were saying about leveling up in terms of friendships. Really being able to lovingly release people from my life who I felt like couldn't accept me in who I was and just really lovingly releasing them and wishing them really the best in my own heart. Judgment is offering me an invitation to deep inner work, and I am thankful. So finding a way to be thankful for an experience that wasn't always enjoyable. I'm releasing what I cannot control, and I cannot control the stories that other people choose to believe about me. I reminded myself that I have the power to heal myself without an apology. I don't know if Brinley mentioned this in her interview, and I hope that she's okay with me mentioning this, but Brinley recently shared with me that she actually wrote a lengthy letter to our stake president. Did she mention that in her interview?

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Yeah.

Leah Young [01:08:41] Oh, she did.

Guest [01:08:42] Okay.

Leah Young [01:08:42] So it's okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] That's one of her seven points. Yeah.

Leah Young [01:08:46] Yeah. I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] That you can forgive people who have

Leah Young [01:08:48] hurt you without an apology.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] Yeah, Well, I mean. Yeah, she wrote it herself. To herself.

Leah Young [01:08:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:55] But she didn't actually ever have to send it to him.

Leah Young [01:08:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Yeah. It was beautiful.

Leah Young [01:08:58] So there's a lot of ways to work through.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] She wrote us the letter.

Guest [01:09:02] Oh, did she?

John Dehlin [01:09:02] Yeah.

Leah Young [01:09:03] She hasn't even read me the letter.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] Oh, well, you get to enjoy that. Yeah.

Guest [01:09:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] That's powerful. Right? Margi's over there nodding. Oh, good.

Leah Young [01:09:12] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] So.

Leah Young [01:09:15] Well, clearly Brynlee feels the same way, and I'm happy to hear that. I actually just learned about that letter. You know, she does so many things that I just don't know about, and that letter was one of them.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] Because you're healthily differentiated.

Leah Young [01:09:28] We are very differentiated, which is one of my points that we'll get to. I learn nothing from life if I think I'm right all the time. So it's humbling to even. Yeah. To sit in differentiation. We'll get to that with believers. I have a clear conscience. I feel brave, and my heart feels happy. So those are some of the reframes that I did as I was feeling in this place of really taking control of my life in a new way and choosing to be in the driver's seat. Like, I don't want to allow others to have the power and the control over me. I can give that away to them if I choose to, but I'm going to choose not to because that creates additional unnecessary suffering for me. So I'm going to choose to see these experiences in the way that aligns with what feels true to me. And I'm going to reframe these experiences to help me move in a direction that I want to go in.

Guest [01:10:27] So powerful. And can I just add, we started off by talking about, like, the growth. The. The devastating experiences can be a conduit to growth. We started out there. How many Mormons would love to be in a place of everything that you just said, like this self actualization, this place of growth and healing that you're in when they're in that first stage that you know that it's part of your interview. How many people would just kill to be there? And like, I'm so glad that we're doing this because you're laying out so many of the aha moments so many listeners probably had on their own. I can remember moments where I had those same types of sentences that you're saying where I was like, oh, I remember that time where this event happened. And that's where I remember realizing I need to employ this new way of framing this without the church. Now you know where you are the one who realizes these things. Like, I didn't read a book. I didn't listen to podcasts. Like, I grew up because I was in a space I was able to. I was having new connections in my brain. Like, that's the beauty of, like, the Mormon faith crisis, right? Is like, I am strong. I'm getting it. So this is. I'm so glad we're doing this. This is. This is epic, you know?

Leah Young [01:11:36] Thank you, Kara.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] Each. Each one of those bullets. I agree, Kara. Each one of those bullets is almost its own episode. So I wonder if you could share these notes and we could post these to the show notes because I know that people are gonna email me and say that list that Leah read. Is there a way that I list.

Guest [01:11:52] I'm doing very tight time codes right now that are probably every three minutes of the time when Leah said this or Leah said that, but just those realist things. Yeah, Go to the show notes on YouTube. Yes, we'll make sure.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] Or on the MormonStories.org blog.

Guest [01:12:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] Yeah, we'll have. We'll have links there too.

Leah Young [01:12:10] Yeah, we can share all of these. Speaking of the. The, you know, our. We've had a lot of people ask for our excommunication statements and things like that, which are available on Mormon stories. They're also available on the resource page on my website. So if people want those. I've tried to make everything available that we've shared publicly that are meaningful, that can be found. So no need to message me, but

John Dehlin [01:12:33] this will be shared too.

Leah Young [01:12:34] Yeah, this can be shared too.

Guest [01:12:35] I hope everyone comments on all of the different platforms. Like, how I was just saying, like, did you have an experience where you had the same reframing moment where you grew with the exact things that Leah is saying? Like, this is gold. Like, this is the exact. That what you're talking about the beginning. You get in there and you do the work and you'll grow from it. This is the work. Like, if you can reframe, you can grow from it. You'll be sailing and sitting pretty, sitting here with John de Lynn.

Leah Young [01:13:04] And it is such a powerful experience, right, To. To realize that we can create our reality. Do we want to create additional suffering for ourselves? Do we want to sit in that space? And I did sit in that space for time. Woe is me. This sucks. Like, this is so hard. I don't want to do it, you know, but we can choose how long we sit there and maybe we need to revisit it. And I say mourning and grieving, that's a really important process. Right. The Body Keeps the Score teaches us about that in that book. So all that's valuable. We don't want to brush that. You know, we don't want to sweep that under the rug and just skip over the difficult to get to. Everything's good. But I think there is growth and meaning and purpose in all of it. Like you were saying, Kara and I do think that we're really missing out if we don't harness the challenges for our good and for our benefit, because they are that conduit for growth that we talked about.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] All right.

Leah Young [01:14:07] Yeah. So my third point is real love does not require self betrayal.

Navigating Relationships After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Okay.

Leah Young [01:14:16] And I would like to start this by reading a little portion of a journal entry that I wrote after our Mormon Stories interview. Since our Mormon Stories interview aired, I've come face to face with many experiences of having people whom I'd considered friends sending me unkind messages, blocking me on Facebook, etc. Another wave hit after our excommunication for forming a support group in Ohio. I've chosen to get really still and quiet inside of myself. I've thought about what comes up for people who choose unkindness and judgment. I remember that they are responding to me out of their own fears and insecurities. Sometimes I cry a lot. It's perfectly normal to feel sad and hurt when people turn away from me in a time when I could use their love and support the most. This is a pivotal moment in my life. I am not going to hustle for my worthiness in hopes of maintaining less than ideal relationships. I am perfectly whole and worthy as I am. I feel brave for publicly speaking my truth because it was hard and it felt scary. Moving forward, I will look at relationships in a different way, in a new way. True friends are safe people who can see me and accept me, even if we are different.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] I just have to say that that is so wise and I'll tell you why. We've been studying the different tools of undue influence or high demand religions and, or cults, and you know, members of high demand religions are taught that people who leave the faith are dangerous and that they're bad. And then also in addition to that, they're taught that they're supposed to withdraw their love because that's the way that you get people to stay in line. It's called milieu control. So not only are they seeing you as dangerous and bad, but they're also intentionally or they've been programmed to withdraw their love. And so you're not going to win, you're not going to win that battle, you're not going to win them over. And so all you can do is cut that cord and say, I can't play this game. I don't want relationships that are conditional on, on some agreement to a certain set of beliefs in a, in a third party organization that I can no longer believe in. I must, you know, I must be true to myself and be authentic to myself. And I can't sacrifice myself to please these relationships that ultimately are superficial. And I don't mean to say all Mormon relationships are superficial, but I will say that anyone who's ever gone through a faith crisis loses 99% of their relationships. So what do you call them? Because again, that's part of the deal. If you're an orthodox Mormon, you cut off all relationships with people who leave the church and you withdraw your love unless they come back. And then if they come back, then you restore your love. That's most Mormon relationships I ever experienced in my ward, in most of my family relationships with orthodox Mormons and with pretty much all my friendships. I lost all my friendships with orthodox Mormons, lost all my family relationships with orthodox Mormons, and lost every single ward relationship I ever had. So you can either fall back into that and regain a bunch of fake relationships that are going to abandon you the minute that you stop believing or you be true to yourself and you go on that great big hero's journey of being true to yourself and then finding relationships that are real. So that's so powerful.

Leah Young [01:18:13] Yeah, I think that happens for a lot of people. I had a beautiful conversation with my brother last night and something that I want to acknowledge and actually something I want to share is that there are people, there are Mormons who are choosing kindness and love and compassion. I feel like my brother is one of those who he was sharing on the porch with me last night. I love you, I respect you, I look up to you. I enjoy being with your family. I love seeing the way that you're taking your life. And so right now, what I want to share, especially if there are any believers listening, is, gosh, you have no idea what your kindness and love and non judgment can mean. You can literally be a lifeline and you might even save a life if you can ask questions, be kind, be loving, care, not withdraw your love. And I actually have just started a passion project. I would love some help with it. It's on Instagram. It's called Love Builds Bridges. And what I want to do with this is celebrate those active members who are choosing kindness, who are choosing love, who are choosing empathy and understanding because we need more of that. And I, you know, sometimes in coaching I can be a container for their pain and I can help them navigate in certain ways, but I do feel restricted. I can't change so much. You can do the culture and it, that's the hardest part of being a coach for me is I want to change it for them and I can't. But one thing I can do, I felt like one thing I can do is celebrate and create a platform that's safe for believing members to hop onto and maybe a resource for people who are transitioning. They could share this account with their believing family or friends and say, this is really a way I would love to be treated. It would be so meaningful to me to feel cared about in these ways. So again, it's a safe, safe place. We're going to keep it safe for believers. And it's a place where we're going to share stories of those active Mormons who are showing up in meaningful ways. So please, if you are willing to help me out, email me at balancelivingwithleahmail.com if you have any story you're willing to share. A small story, a big story. Because I really want to create a tool and a resource especially for people who are losing a Lot of relationships that hopefully they can inspire and encourage their believing family and friends to make a different choice.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] And what kind of stories, again, stories

Leah Young [01:21:09] of active believing members who are showing up in kind, compassionate ways to people who are transitioning. And also I would like to share stories of like, this is what would be so meaningful for me if a family member showed me love and support in this way. This would really help me so, so that we're. We're spotlighting those who are choosing love.

John Dehlin [01:21:33] Okay, so, so you heard it, listeners and viewers, if you've got believing family members that have reacted in ways that have been healing and positive for you, send those to leah@ balancedlivingwithleahmail.com Just like a paragraph describing.

Leah Young [01:21:50] Yeah, I have a document that goes through the specifics if people need some guidance, but essentially it's just the story. If you're going to be tagged, I need to know that I would love to have a picture. If you don't want to share a picture of either you or you with your believing family and friends, we have an alternative for that as well.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] And so this will become like an Instagram post where maybe. So imagine a post where it's like you and you're believing mom or dad who showed you love, a photo potentially and then a paragraph or two description of what they did to show you love. And this is to model the types of good examples of the behavior that we're all seeking.

Leah Young [01:22:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] Is that right?

Leah Young [01:22:33] Exactly. We want to celebrate the good and we want to share the good and we want to encourage the good. And you know, there's so many stories of the difficult and the sad and the hard. So this is a space where we want to say there's good. And these are some of the ways that a believer could show up in a meaningful way to someone who's transitioning.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] I love it.

Guest [01:22:56] I love that. And it sounds like it's loving people where they're at both ways. You're loving people in the church while people in the church can love you where you're at.

Leah Young [01:23:03] Absolutely. And if there's some stories of how you shown up maybe for a believing family or friend in a way that feels kind and loving and supportive and differentiated, I would love to share that as well. So it can. Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up. It should go both ways. And it can go both ways.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] Love it.

Leah Young [01:23:22] Yeah. So a couple steps under this number three, Love does not require self betrayal. That I practice continually to be self respecting include setting boundaries, observing my patterns. So more aware of My own reactivity and how I respond. Accepting that there are multiple realities and that I don't need to change anyone's reality. Learning to be at peace with being misunderstood, not fighting against that because we're not going to change it. Probably prioritizing a connection to my inner self and my personal values and understanding that people project their unhealed trauma and realizing that that's not personal. So those are a few steps that I practice to be self respecting.

Guest [01:24:16] Those are love it gold.

Leah Young [01:24:19] Thank you.

Guest [01:24:20] I have been nodding my head. I am losing calories in my good.

Leah Young [01:24:24] You're getting a workout.

Guest [01:24:25] I literally am. I'm strengthening my neck muscles from being like yes and yes and yes. Especially the one about being comfortable feeling misunderstood. That is the billboard title of leaving the church. That people, even if they want to hear your reasons or they want to talk with you, their own head, needs to sometimes for their own life to keep moving forward, they need to misunderstand you. It's in their mind's best interest to change around what you just said into a way that makes sense in their head and then sometimes comes out as like judgment or word vomit. If it's my parents talking to me, it's literally just being totally comfortable. Like, I'm sorry that's the way you see it, but I'm going to go live my best life over here, you know, especially being on TikTok and any kind of like public platform. You just have to be so comfortable being misunderstood and just. You're on to the next thing though, you know, you do what you can. I showed up. People are going to misunderstand me. That's fine. But these are all golden. Leah, thank you.

Leah Young [01:25:21] It takes real courage and I just so admire what you're doing. That's a hard. That's a hard thing to keep. To continue, I mean, and John, too, obviously to continue to show up and to continue to be misunderstood and labeled and misrepresented and it's a brave, hard choice. And that actually is a perfect segue into number four.

Lesson Four: Differentiation in Communication

John Dehlin [01:25:42] All right, number four. Differentiation in communication is key.

Leah Young [01:25:47] Differentiation, Differentiation.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] We're not good at that in Mormonism.

Leah Young [01:25:52] No, we're good at conformity.

John Dehlin [01:25:54] Yeah.

Leah Young [01:25:56] So in the church, we really value being similar and conforming. And the opposite of that is that we're actually all different. And so in differentiation, we're engaging in relationships from a place of honesty and integrity instead of from a false self that can develop to avoid conflict in order to keep the peace or to placate others. And in differentiation, we can be a container for others realities without being threatened by them when our reality is different. And this, I love this part of differentiation which is acknowledgement. For me, the key ingredient to differentiation is this concept of acknowledgement, which is a component of. Of active listening, the active listening process.

Holding Space for Others Without Losing Yourself

John Dehlin [01:26:51] Can you tell me what you mean by be a container for others realities without being threatened by them when yours is different? What do you mean being a container for others realities?

Leah Young [01:27:01] Yeah, so what I mean is being able to hold space. So I envision like a container so I can hold safe space for you when you're.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] When I'm telling you what my reality is.

Leah Young [01:27:14] Yes, you can hold that. I can hold that. And even if mine is very different, I can say that's okay. And if I'm triggered, I can deal with that. Instead of being reactive and saying, no, you're wrong or you need to see it this way, in differentiation we're able to say, okay, I can see that it's different for you and I really honor that that's how you feel about it. Even if for me it's really different and that's okay. And I think that we get ourselves into a lot of conflict and battles and circular conversations that don't generally benefit relationships because we're trying to have the other person see our reality and adopt it or conform to it both ways. Right. It could be politics, it could be religion. And we just see this playing out, I think, every day. Like we don't know how to sit in that uncomfortability when someone else experiences something very different from us. So learning this skill of differentiation and acknowledgement is helpful through the transition. But I think it's such a key indicator of healthy relationships. I find that it comes up a lot in my marriage, it comes up a lot in my parenting. Right. How can I say. And let's say you have an argument with a spouse and you believe that it was this way, or you're ascribing motives or you're making assumptions and like, this is the reality. But for the other person, maybe it really isn't that way. And instead of fighting about what way it really is, can we find a way to honor that it's different for each of us. Can we be a container for someone else's experience and still feel at peace if ours is different and find a way to share that in safe relationships?

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Okay, now I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying. And what I think about it is like in a high demand religious system, everybody has a role you know, we know the woman's role in the home. We know the man's role to provide and, you know, and the priesthood role and the Relief Society role, and the kids role. And everybody's got a role. The benefit is everyone knows the role and there's sometimes some comfort in the structure and in the certainty and everybody's a cog in the machine of having the church be super healthy and successful. That's kind of the way I'm conceptualizing it these days. The problem is there's a lot of people that are playing the role of a cog that are miserable or they're unhappy or they're unhealthy, or they're not living their best life. And then oftentimes they're self medicating with the depression and the anxiety that they're feeling. Not being authentic, not being true to themselves and not living their best lives. That's the collateral damage, is all the people playing the role of cogs in this big system when it's not helping them. So what's a different system? A different system is where everybody, instead of like a broom leaning up against a wall, where when something bad happens, the broom falls down. Everybody's learning to stand in their own power and in their own truth. The benefit of that is that people are hopefully becoming strong, becoming wise, becoming their fully authentic, actuated self. The downside is it means everybody's got to sort of say, hey, we're not all cogs in a machine. We're healthy, thriving, actuated individuals and we have to learn to work together now, where we're not just plugging into a pre designed system. And that takes each of us learning to listen and understand the other person's reality. So that if, let's just say a stay at home mom comes to you and says, hey, I don't love staying home all the time with my kids. I love my kids. But I'm realizing that I need to be a working mom to be a healthy human and to be the best mom that I can to my kids. Well, the husband's got to like say, whoa, wait a minute, that's. That's a different reality. I'm not. That wasn't what I was expecting. The husband's got to hold that reality that the wife is then going to present or let's say a kid comes out to you as gay or lesbian or transgender. It's like, whoa, wait a minute. I was expecting you to fulfill these roles of this type of life as a child. And I wanted to be a Grandparent. This is what I was expecting. No, your job isn't to try and shove them back into a square peg in a round hole. It's to be able to listen to it, hold their reality while you are still holding on to who and what you want to be. And so it takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of listening, it takes a lot of holding. But the benefit is, hopefully everyone is going to be living their best, truest, authentic life and there's gonna be a lot less depression, a lot less anxiety, and a lot less self medication. What do you think?

Leah Young [01:32:19] Yeah, I completely agree. It really is this idea of stepping out of the conformity model. And again, I think that that is what we're most familiar with, that's what we're most comfortable with. So there is some. It's a bit uncomfortable. Right. And at the same time it's quite freeing and it's quite liberating to be able to sit with someone who sees something very different from you and realize, I don't need to control you, I don't need to change you. I don't need you to see it my way. I can be at peace with myself and what matters to me can still matter to me. And even if you disagree or even if you see it differently and we're just really freeing ourselves from a lot of angst when we're able to differentiate and to acknowledge other people's realities and to also say, I don't need to be a false me to make you feel comfortable. Yeah, I don't need to placate you by pretending to agree with you because I can still be kind and feel differently.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] And I think probably the area where this is most salient for many of us is in mixed faith relationships where we have parents or siblings, friends who are still believing and they're trying to kind of, they're trying to get us to fit back in that believing mold when maybe we don't believe like we used to.

Leah Young [01:33:46] I think you're right, which is why I really want to do a little bit of role play, some role play with you. But before we get to that, I want to go back to this idea of acknowledgement. This, this acknowledgement piece of active listening is really valuable and I learned about this through my coach training. And acknowledgement means it doesn't mean I agree with you. It doesn't mean I see it the same way as you. All it means is I see what's true for you. And thank you for sharing. I can acknowledge what's true for You, I'm seeing that that's true for you or that's important to you, and I can acknowledge that as your reality. And there's some tweaks we can make in languaging so that we feel like we're being true to ourself, like using words like, for me, this is how it is, or I can see that for you it's this way. And just using those words for me and for you can be a way of feeling like we're not being dishonest with ourselves. We're not being untruthful, we're being honest. But we're also able to sit with someone who's really different from us and acknowledge what's important to them and validate their worldview. Validate their worldview. Sometimes validation goes along with acknowledgement, and sometimes it doesn't. And when I'm working with clients and we're going through some scenarios with believing family and friends, sometimes I'll say it might feel true for you to say, I can really understand how it would be that way for you. And sometimes that actually doesn't feel truthful. So I encourage clients to tune into themselves and to decide if validation is something they want to offer along with acknowledgement or not. So some scenarios might include validation and some might not.

Guest [01:35:27] Yeah, honestly, that's something to do with my five and six year old girls anyway. You know, like in the middle of them having a tantrum, like, you have to get down to their level and say that, I understand what you're going through. This is difficult for you, but for me, I really need you to put on your shoes.

Leah Young [01:35:42] There you go. It can be. It can be used in a lot of different scenarios. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] And I just have to say this was one of the Brinley's seven points is how, how valuable she felt. No, no, no, you're not. This isn't. We didn't go into this depth that we're about to go into. I just want to say she has valued active listening so much that she listed it as one of her seven gifts of, you know, things that she's learned that have been most valuable to her in her faith crisis. And she talked about how she uses it with her siblings and with friends and with other people.

Guest [01:36:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Extended family.

Leah Young [01:36:13] And there's actually a video on my website, there's a section where there's videos. And I have three of my four kids talking about the steps of active listening. Even my little Reese, she was 8 at the time she was videoed. And she's Talking about this is my favorite step of active listening and here's why. And that's something that we do as a family is we practice active listening.

Guest [01:36:31] Can I put that in the show notes for people to find?

Leah Young [01:36:34] Yes, absolutely. It's on the video page of my website. Okay.

Guest [01:36:39] I'll have a link to that in the show notes.

Leah Young [01:36:42] So let's do some role play. John, why don't you give me some scenarios and I'm going to offer what you're going to hear a couple things probably here. You're going to hear some boundaried responses. Right. We don't always have to answer the statements that are directed at us or the questions that are given. And in fact, Margi was really helpful for me when she was my coach through transition in helping me understand what a boundaried response meant. And that was such a liberating experience of my coaching with Margi is realizing I don't have to give you the answer. That was. Aha. That was life changing. Right. And so you're going to hear some boundarying here. You're going to hear some acknowledgement and you might hear validation. I don't know, I don't have it pre thought out. But let's, let's go for it.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] All right. So I'm going to play the role of a orthodox believing Mormon family member.

Leah Young [01:37:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] Right.

Leah Young [01:37:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:39] Who is.

Leah Young [01:37:40] Or friend.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] Yeah. I'm gonna do parent.

Leah Young [01:37:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:44] Is that okay? Sure. So, not meaning anything by this, but I'm gonna play your dad because I'm a guy and I'm just gonna kind of be worried about you as someone who has lost their faith and. Or has left the church.

Leah Young [01:38:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] And so I'm gonna be giving you some advice.

Leah Young [01:38:03] Okay. And this is pretend.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] And this. I'm not your dad.

Guest [01:38:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] In real life. Okay. So, Leah, I need to talk to you for a few minutes. I've really been worried and I'm really concerned and I just felt impressed. I felt impressed that I needed to tell you something that has been weighing on my heart and on my mind. I'm really concerned that you've stopped attending the temple. You're on the covenant path. You made a certain amount of covenant, a certain number of covenants when you took out your endowments. And I found that when I attend the temple I live better, I'm a better husband, I'm a better father, I'm a better human. And since you, you know, have been going through whatever you've been going through, I've noticed I haven't seen you Going to the temple. I haven't heard about you going to the temple. And I just think that you should. I really think you should start attending the temple regularly. And if you would, I think you would regain your testimony of the church and of the gospel. Because you're not attending the temple. How can you have the spirit of the Lord with you? And you're violating your covenants to boot. So I just want to challenge you to get back to the temple, Leah. I think it would be good for you. Yeah.

Practicing Differentiated Communication in Real Scenarios

Leah Young [01:39:33] Dad, I can really tell how much you love me and how much you care about me. And I'm so thankful that you love me and that you care about me. And I can tell that for you, the temple is so meaningful and it's important. And I want you to know that I will always support your devotion to the church and your desire to attend the temple because I know that's an important part of your life.

John Dehlin [01:40:02] But that. I mean, that doesn't resolve my concern. Because my concern. I know I'm doing great, but I'm worried about you and I'm worried about our eternal family, and I'm worried about your kids, and I'm worried about your marriage. And I just don't know how you're going to be a good wife and a good mom without the Lord's help and without the temple. And. And I just think going to the temple would help you regain your testimony. Yeah. Would help you come back.

Guest [01:40:29] Yeah.

Leah Young [01:40:30] I can really tell that you're feeling that. And I think that we see the temple differently now. And what would be meaningful to me is to feel that same support. I want you to know that I'm going to support you in attending the temple. I know it's meaningful for you and important to you, and it would be really meaningful for me to also feel your support for the choices that I'm making. I want to reassure you that I feel at peace with the direction that my life is headed. And, yeah, I just. I'm at a place of peace. But I am thankful for your concern, and I love you and I support you, and we just see it differently, and that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] How in the world are you getting the sustenance that you need without going to the temple? How are you even getting the things that you need to be the type of person I know you want to be?

Leah Young [01:41:29] I can tell you have a lot of questions. And what's so important to me is that we in our relationship focus on topics that will support our highest relationship potential. And getting into those Details right now, dad, is something I'm not feeling comfortable with. But again, I appreciate your love and your care and your concern. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna probably boundary someone like that because.

John Dehlin [01:41:56] Yeah, I was just gonna say I feel very boundaried right now.

Leah Young [01:41:58] Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that's important. And oftentimes women will feel that that's meant to. And I just want to say it's not mean because interrogation is often not very supportive of relationships. And when we get into this power dynamic, and I think for women this can really happen where there's a male figure, especially a male priesthood leader or someone in a place of position where we feel like we owe an explanation. And what I want to say is we don't owe an explanation to anybody. We can make choices and we can. Even if we're misunderstood or even if we're judged, we don't need to hustle to explain why we're making the choices that we are. And that really goes back to that idea that when we can step away from needing external validation and feel at peace with where we're at, that really can shine through in the conversations that we have with people. And so if it's. If it gets into sort of this interrogation model, I'm probably going to stop that conversation unless I think that there is a real significant benefit to the relationship. Generally in this kind of a dynamic, I don't think there's a win win. I think it's generally a lose lose. So the important thing is I'm going to honor you. I would love to feel that you are able to honor me. Right. But I'm not going to hold onto that expectation because I don't want to set myself up. I'm not going to say that. But inside I know I'm not going to hold on to that expectation. That would be lovely. I don't need it. That would be lovely. And let's really just focus on conversations that can feel meaningful. And if continued conversations of interrogation happen, maybe that means some physical boundaries are important to consider. So. Yeah. Should we go on to another one?

John Dehlin [01:43:47] Yeah. It's hard because to an orthodox believer, sometimes there's only one right answer.

Leah Young [01:43:52] Right.

John Dehlin [01:43:52] And no explanation is going to satisfy if you say, I'm happier than ever, my marriage is better, we have better sex, my kids are thriving, we just got the Nobel Peace Prize and we're multi billionaires and we're saving the world through charities.

Leah Young [01:44:09] Yeah, but you lost the most important thing, right? Which is your eternal salvation. And so I think what you said is really important, and this is something I will mention often in coaching is, you know, I'm wondering if even this four or five page letter to your bishop or your family member, do you think it's going to change their opinion? Do you think it's going to change their mind? Right. Or are you offering vulnerability where it maybe isn't warranted, where it maybe won't be cared for in a respectful way? So if we can remember that generally we're not going to change people's minds in these kinds of conversations, and generally it will probably potentially damage the relationship, then that helps us to remember where we do and don't want to engage.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] All right, Smart. All right, you ready for round two?

Guest [01:44:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] Is this triggering you like this? Care.

Guest [01:45:00] I'm loving this because I'm also replaying. I talk with people on, on TikTok and these types of conversations, you hear about the bad way that they go a lot. And leaving Mormonism, you have a very emotional, emotional response. And you want to tell people off sometimes. Why am I not going to the temple? It's because it's sexist and I'm bored and it's stolen from the Masons. And like, you just want to go off on. How dare you. You know, like there's, there's that. That phase of Mormonism where sometimes you just. You're angry. But is it advantageous? Speaking of rebuilding a worldview, I've never told anyone this. That was the entire. I didn't need religion. After I left Mormonism, I just had the phrase, is it advantageous to my goals? Is the only thing I told myself when I was going into new interactions, when my mom wants to talk to me about why I'm going to church, Should I go emotional or is it advantageous to go emotional? What's the advantageous route? All right, I'm just gonna say, I don't know. I'm just busy. You know, I'm gonna put up a boundary. I'm gonna put up a boundary. Cause I know what's advantageous and it's not engaging in this conversation right now. So a lot of us, we've been in those. Those spaces where it can go really south. And I'm. I'm well aware, as I'm sure all of us are, like, sometimes people let the steam off, and people who are just products of their system and their conditioning and their environment have to be the face of it, have to bear the brunt of it. So these are beautiful. And I hope people are taking all these lessons and can incorporate them in their next conversations with people.

Leah Young [01:46:18] Absolutely. And that kind of made me think about how I've used this in responding on social media at times. I used to do stories a lot. And, you know, during our time of excommunication or sharing our story, I would share a lot of things about the church and I would receive a lot of messages. And it was so freeing to be able to respond to maybe some unkind messages. I would really think, to use your terminology, Kerry, what is advantageous here? I'm not going to change this person's mind. How do I want to use my precious life energy? So I would stop a lot of what could have been ongoing, disadvantageous, unkind messages with strangers by saying, it sounds like for you, this is really important. And I'm glad you're happy, you know, because I'd get these scathing messages at times and I would just say it sounds like this is really something you feel passionate about. I'm glad you found something that feels really important to you.

John Dehlin [01:47:17] Yeah.

Leah Young [01:47:18] All I'm doing is acknowledging what's true for them. And so sometimes it requires seeing what they're saying without saying it. Right. Because what they're saying is you this, you that, you this. But what they're really saying is something totally different.

Guest [01:47:34] And that comes back to, I always like to say a bad faith interpretation sometimes of what they assume I'm doing or any of us are doing. Oh, by writing that you're leaving the church on Facebook, that means you're trying to pull people out. That's a bad faith interpretation. Me making TikTok videos satirizing the church that I just want everyone's lives to leave. Have them leave the spirit, have their families crash down, have them leave the church now. Just satirizing things that I think are funny and giving people things to laugh at and validate them. People all the time will have a bad faith interpretation to what we're doing and read into the situation, things that aren't there. And just like you said, being like, I'm glad that you had a good experience in the church, period. And that really disarms a lot of trolls.

Leah Young [01:48:13] Conversation over.

Guest [01:48:14] Yeah, like, I'm. I actually. Not really. I don't want to argue about the church if you don't need my content, this isn't for you. It's not for you.

Leah Young [01:48:20] You know, sounds like another space will be more supportive of you.

John Dehlin [01:48:26] Okay, so this is going to be a little triggering. We're going to go for round two. You ready?

Leah Young [01:48:29] Go for it.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Kaylee, I need to talk to you. Okay. I understand that you and Cody, you know, have felt the need to step away from the church and your adults, and what you guys do, you know, is your business. And frankly, I. I can't control it. As your. As your dad, my concern is with my grandchildren, with. With your children. And, you know, you guys are going to do whatever you're going to do. I just. I don't have any idea how you're going to raise happy and healthy kids without the church. Like, I saw. I think I saw Reese the other day. I saw her dressing. You know, I don't want to say modest, but, like, I saw her shoulders. Like, you know, I know Brinley's dating a boy. And I'm just really worried about your kids. And what you do is your business, but with your kids, I just don't know how you're going to raise healthy, happy, moral kids. And I'm worried about them.

Leah Young [01:49:35] That worry is really coming through, and I can tell it's coming from a place of love. And I know that you really love my children, and I am so thankful for that love and for you. Raising our family in the church was the way that you chose, and for us, it looks different. And I want to reassure you that we are feeling good about the direction that we're going. And I would just love for you to feel at peace. And I know that that might not happen, but just know that we do feel at peace.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] But, Leah, we are taught that wickedness never was happiness.

Leah Young [01:50:20] Yeah. And for you, it sounds like you're kind of maybe seeing that the way that we're choosing to raise our kids would be labeled for you as wicked. That's hurtful to hear. I want you to know that for me, it looks and feels different. It feels really healthy and grounded and good and moving forward. If you're interested in what support would look like to me in terms of you being their grandfather, I would love to share that with you.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] How am I doing? Am I being triggering enough?

Leah Young [01:50:57] No, you're being great.

John Dehlin [01:51:00] I feel very boundaried today. I feel very bound.

Guest [01:51:03] You're the nicest Mormon dad in the world, though. Any conversation that. This sounds familiar, the tone you need to. You've danced already this week with me and Sam. Shelley, you need to, like, be more fierce. Put your acting a little.

John Dehlin [01:51:18] But. But aren't our Mormon dads often, like. They say it nicely, but they kind of say superhero. No, not necessarily.

Guest [01:51:25] Give me one. I'll do it.

John Dehlin [01:51:26] I want to be fierce. I'M going to be a little more fierce.

Leah Young [01:51:28] No, no, I like the tone.

Guest [01:51:30] I like the tone, too.

Leah Young [01:51:31] Sometimes using this idea of if you're interested to know what support would look like for me, I'm open to sharing. I'm not going to project that upon you because you might really not be interested. But I'm just going to make that invitation. If you're curious to know what meaningful support would look like, I'd love to share that with you. And so what I'm not saying is what you're doing right now is not supportive. And again, everybody has to choose. This approach might not work for some people. Right. So I'm not saying this is the right way or this is the one way to do it. I'm saying here are some phrases or here are some ways to approach difficult conversations that might be useful if you don't want to get onto the hamster wheel of, you know, just. It can just be such a black hole of trying to prove. Trying to have someone see it your way, trying to tell them that they're wrong. Them trying to tell you that you're wrong. Like, it doesn't generally benefit the relationship. So what is the end goal? Keeping that end goal in mind is valuable.

John Dehlin [01:52:38] Yeah. Okay, let's try another one. Okay, ready? So, Leah, you know, you've come to the family reunion. I can't help but notice that you're not wearing your garments. And we all know that garments are protection, they're physical protection, and they're also a spiritual protection. And I think you really ought to think about the covenants you've made in the temple. And I am worried that you're going around unprotected, and I'm just concerned.

Leah Young [01:53:16] Yeah. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to acknowledge what I'm hearing. Okay. So this is the acknowledgment. So, dad, it sounds like you garments are really important for you. They're an important part of your life for you. Yeah. And for how you interpret what God wants for you. And that's a commitment that you've made that you feel like is important. And I want you to know that I respect that choice that you're making. And for me it's different. And, you know, we don't see eye to eye on this. And that's okay. I love you just the way you are. And I. It would be really meaningful for me to feel that in return.

John Dehlin [01:54:05] But it's hard for me to see you not living up to your covenants. I'M worried about you and I'm worried about Cody, and I'm worried about your marriage and I'm worried about your kids. Yeah, I'm worried.

Leah Young [01:54:20] It makes sense that you'd feel worried given where you're at and what you believe and how you feel. Thanks for sharing that you're feeling worried,

John Dehlin [01:54:32] but I need something to change or I'm going to keep feeling worried. Yeah.

Leah Young [01:54:37] So here's. In my mind, what's happening is it's not my job to make you not feel worried. Right. So here's where we get back to those things that I shared.

John Dehlin [01:54:47] So you're stepping out of.

Leah Young [01:54:49] So it's not my job to make you not feel worried. And I think that a lot of transitioning people get into this place where they have to say, don't be worried. Like, let me be responsible for making you not feel these uncomfortable feelings. I'm not actually responsible for your feelings.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] So we've stepped out of the role play now. Right?

Leah Young [01:55:08] Right, right. Oh, sorry. We've stepped out of the role play. So I'm just telling you, when I started saying, here's what's going on in my head when I hear that, what I'm hearing is, I want you to make me feel better. Now, here's the thing. That's impossible. Okay. So if you're a transitioning member, you can't make your believing family and friends

John Dehlin [01:55:29] feel good about your choices without being inauthentic or lying. Right?

Leah Young [01:55:32] Right. Because it's about their paradigm. It's about their reality. So you can't control their reality. And you may as well not try because it will create probably additional suffering for you and contention in your relationship.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] I take it a tiny bit further. You're stunting their growth to always put yourself forward as the. The solution to their feelings of discomfort. That's a basic life skill to learn to sit with your uncomfortable emotions and soothe yourself. Self soothing, healthy coping. Right?

Leah Young [01:56:08] Healthy coping and analogy. Sometimes when I'm coaching, I come up. I just. Based on what's happening, I come up with some analogies. And one that I came up with once was this idea of, you know, often for believing family and friends, it's like their hand is on a burner and it hurts. It's uncomfortable. Like, they are very uncomfortable with your choices. And what they're saying is, essentially, please take my hand off the burner. Take it off, take it off. It hurts. Like, I don't want it to hurt. You're making it hurt. When in reality, it's their job to take their hand off the burner. So it isn't really my job to come and grab your hand and remove it from the burner because that's just impossible for me to do. I can't change your worldview. I can't change what drew you to the church. I can't change why you have a testimony, how you have a testimony. All these intricacies around your development and your reality is just so much grander than what I can change and shift. And so I just wanted to pause to say in my mind when I hear that. What I hear is please make me stop feeling uncomfortable. And I'm really not willing to step into that with people. So what I'm gonna do is acknowledge what's true for them. And so what I'm gonna say is, it really sounds like this is hard for you. And I don't wanna be patronizing, but if I did wanna be, I might say I'm wondering what ways you, you know, what things you might do to help yourself feel better. Because it sounds like this is really hard. It's hard for you. It's not hard for me. But I generally will just stop with the acknowledgement.

John Dehlin [01:57:45] No. And we, in my exact family right now, we take it even one step further. There are often times where my kids will be making really important life decisions, where my only role is to step up. But I've got all this anxiety and fear and there have been moments where they've said to me, yeah, dad, that must be really hard. You probably should see a therapist about that. And I'm like, wait a minute, I have a PhD in psychology and you're my kid. And why are you telling me to see a therapist? But you know what? That's exactly what I needed.

Leah Young [01:58:20] Well, and you and Margi have taught them, right, that it's not their responsibility to soothe you. I mean, that really is a manifestation of the work that you two have done in being conscious, intentional parents for them.

John Dehlin [01:58:37] No, it is parent. I'm going to say this to the camera. It is parenting malpractice for a parent to put on their kids their distress and emotion. It is never a child's job to take care of a parent's emotion. That is your job as a parent. And if you're a kid, that's your parents own job, is to learn to cope with their own emotions. A parent should never put their distress on their kid and expect their kid to resolve their anguish or distress or concern. And so this is really, really important to go back to the stove Analogy, you're not always going to be there for your parent when their hands on a stove. So the best thing a parent can do is, is learn to take their own hand off the stove. And you only enable an unhealthy, codependent relationship if you're always putting yourself in the position of always having to be there for your parent every time they stick their hand on a stove. So by you pushing back and saying, boundarying and saying, how are you going to handle this distress you're feeling? I'm so sorry you're going through this. Maybe you ought to find a friend. Maybe you ought to find a support group. Maybe you ought to find a therapist. You may or may not want to take it that far, but that is what is often needed. Orthodox believing family members have to learn healthy coping skills and you don't. It's not your job to resolve those fears and concerns.

Leah Young [01:59:59] Yeah. And similarly in parenting. Right. It's not our job to solve our children's distress. It's our job to show up for them, to help them find ways. I know with one of my kiddos has really big emotions. So something that I've supported her in doing is she has a box in her room where when she's feeling these big emotions, she has a treat and a journal and she has different lotion and things that help her feel like she can soothe herself. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] Love it. I love it. Okay, there's one more. We ready for the last one? Or do you think we've. Let's do one more. All right. All right. So, Leah, I just. I am still distressed that you and Cody are. Have left the church. And I just think that if you and Cody would just start praying more, just start praying more and reading your scriptures more, and I'm confident that your testimony would return. So will you please accept this challenge of praying and reading your scriptures more? And I'm confident that your faith will return.

Guest [02:01:14] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:01:16] I know that for you, reading your scriptures and praying is such a source of comfort, and I know that that's meaningful for you, and for me it's different. And I found other ways to find comfort and meaning and purpose. And it means so much to me that you can honor that our paths are different. So what I did there is. I actually said it means so much to me that you're willing to do something that you're actually not doing. But sometimes I find that to be valuable to say, you know, not only I would appreciate it, but kind of putting that expectation out there saying, you know, it's so meaningful to me that you're willing to honor that my path is different from yours. It's. Yeah. I don't know if this is like an approved technique, but it's sort of an invitation. It's sort of stating what you want in a non combative way.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Beautiful. So, Lee, will you grab some tissues and hand those over to Kara? And Kara, you're having some feels.

Guest [02:02:26] Having some feels.

John Dehlin [02:02:27] Damn it, Kara, do you want to. Do you want to share what you're feeling or do you want to have this be a pause in the.

Leah Young [02:02:33] Yeah, I guess I am.

Guest [02:02:36] You know, sometimes when you're feeling things and you can't actually put them into words. So I'm put on the spot here, but I think what you're talking about with the boundaries or responses and all of this is just. We talk about this nonstop, but it's bears repeating that like all of this is systems. It's not people. It's people who have had undue influence, like John always likes to say, put over their minds. And that we even have to learn some of these things. And they're good to learn, obviously, but like the fractured relationships, like this conversation has happened millions of times in millions of cultures and millions of religions and this happens to be the one that's closest to our heart in Mormonism. But like it just doesn't it just be like, damn it, that sucks. Damn it, that sucks. That time that I had the conversation with my mom and I wasn't able to know that these tools yet and I lashed out and our relationship sucked for a month because I didn't know these tools or like, remember the time when my friend and I had this discussion and I lashed out because I was trying to get defensive or I didn't, you know, I cared what people thought and I still had. I had the systems conditioning over me still. And I hadn't grown out of that space yet. So it's also just a twofold ugly cry that I'm just like, I'm so glad that I've got a lot of these ahas in my tool belt, you

John Dehlin [02:03:50] know, and I'm kind of mourning cut

Guest [02:03:53] off of me now. So. Did any of that make sense? I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] Yeah, but. And I'll just take it a time. Thank you for your vulnerability. And I'll just add, how about the relationships that have ended because we didn't have these tools? And that's why this work is so important. The work you do, the work Margi does, the work Natasha and other therapists and Coaches. Because relationships are dying, ending sometimes for life.

Guest [02:04:22] I was just going to say, I think it's important to note that you can use all the right tools and you can do your. You can use all the healthiest and the relationship will still end. You can still suffer the ending of a relationship or. And I just think that's important to

John Dehlin [02:04:40] note sometimes you can say it all right. And you'll still lose it.

Leah Young [02:04:43] Yeah, yeah, that's also true.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] But it's also true that if we learn tools, sometimes we can prevent from a bad month or even a bad year or the destruction of a relationship. I think.

Leah Young [02:04:58] Right. And in some of the, you know, I heard a few components to what you shared. I think one of them, correct me if I'm wrong, is this feeling maybe of resentment that we even have to learn these tools because of the systems and the programs and the culture that are at play. So some mourning and some grief and some sadness that this has to be a conversation is I think what I was hearing.

Guest [02:05:21] Down to your underwear, you know, down to things that. Down to drinking a cup of coffee. All the things that we talk about of like, I shouldn't feel judged for doing the most basic normal things. Like, yes, we can have bigger conversations about if your parents see you engaging in, you know, alcohol or drinking or there's bigger issues to have. But this simplest, most normal things that you as an ex Mormon are like, take pride in a cup of coffee and I have to hide the coffee maker when my parents come over. Like the smallest things because of the system that has trained them to judge that. And like being able to put up a healthy.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] Like, I can hear, I can hear. Leah Remini, you hide coffee makers in Mormonism, that's outrageous. Right?

Guest [02:06:00] At least you have a panic attack. One of the two. Yeah.

Leah Young [02:06:04] So that's a part of it, right. Is, ah, why does it have to be this way? And then also this mourning and grief of maybe had I known some of these things, it would have gone differently. And I love what Margi interjected because it's true. You could have been perfect, known all the things and done it better than I could have ever done it and still lose relationships. And that's why this idea, I think it's very self compassionate to remember that our success in a relationship can only be measured on how we show up. Because if we are showing up the best we can, let's say, with these tools intact and we're losing relationships, we can't give ourself a failing grade. Right. We need to give ourselves some compassion and say, I'm only a part of the equation. There's two or three or multiple people in this relationship. And so I'm going to grade myself essentially on what I can control, and that's me. And then also, I just invite you to just give yourself so much grace and so much compassion, because some of the things I'm saying sound so much easier than they are in real life when you are with your loved one and you know, you have a history and you have a future, hopefully with this person. So it's different than sitting down and role playing in a podcast. Right. It takes immense awareness of your own triggering and reactivity. It is really like emotional graduate school to be able to feel, especially to be able to feel unseen and in the space of feeling unseen and invalidated, to see and validate someone else. It's extremely difficult to see.

Guest [02:07:46] It's the smartest thing I've ever heard in my life. Everyone press back 30 seconds and listen to that thing again. Yes. Like just. Yes, exactly.

Leah Young [02:07:56] It's hard.

Guest [02:07:57] So hard.

Leah Young [02:07:57] But so lots of grace and compassion.

Guest [02:08:00] Thank you.

Leah Young [02:08:00] You know, for you and anyone else who maybe is listening this and thinking, I wish I would have done it differently. Well, me too. Like, join the club. Right?

John Dehlin [02:08:09] And you mean you didn't do it all perfectly, Leah?

Leah Young [02:08:13] No, no, I didn't do it all perfectly. No, not at all. These are things that I've learned as I've gone along, you know, through my own experience, through becoming a coach, through being able to interact with several people. So I'm still in the process of discovery. And I'm sure that I'll look back in five years and be like, oh, my gosh, I wish I would have known this.

John Dehlin [02:08:32] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:08:35] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:08:36] And, Kara, thanks for being willing to share your feels. That makes it all real.

Guest [02:08:41] All done. No more from me. Turn off mic. No longer can I be asked what I'm thinking in the middle of an ugly gray.

Steps Toward Differentiation and Healthy Independence

Leah Young [02:08:49] So kind of to wrap this number four up, differentiation in communication is key. I want to offer some steps to the listener that they can take towards differentiation, some concrete ideas. So one is to identify our own emotions and to own them. Another one is to share our thoughts and feelings in safe relationships. So to practice being seen, to feel like we're worth being seen in relationships, where we feel like vulnerability is safe, to come to terms with disappointing people, especially parents, that's the big one. Come to terms with disappointing people, to manage our own reactivity. And when we're feeling that discomfort and that, you know, that Alive, you know, when we come alive inside. That comes from a book called Nonviolent Communication. Actually, he calls it Coming Alive Inside. I love that book. To recognize that and to not expect another person to solve that. For us to use I statements when communicating our choices, feelings, and life decisions. So owning really what we're choosing, setting clear boundaries for ourselves in our relationships, to just expect discomfort as we grow. Like these boundaried conversations are not the normal typically for people. So it will feel uncomfortable. And expecting that is valuable. And to remember to celebrate differences instead of conformity. And I think in order to really embody that reality, we have to live it. And I think it's powerful to do that with believers because in a way, we're inviting them and maybe even teaching them to do the same to us. Like, I'm going to celebrate that for you the temple's important, or that for you, raising your children in the church was important, and for me it's different. And that's one way of demonstrating that we can still be in relationship and feel differently about these things. And there is one roadblock that can really get in the way of differentiation, and that is realizing that we need to accept people as they are. And that really might include grieving and feeling the loss of someone who is still alive. Because our relationships really might change even if we maintain them. But once we stop waiting for others to change, we're more able to accept who they actually are and release ourselves from other unmet expectations, which can really interfere with differentiation.

John Dehlin [02:11:32] Yeah. One of the biggest things we emphasize in our faith crisis retreats that Natasha and I have been doing for a long time is this paradox that most of the people I know who left the church aren't the ones who cared too little, they're the ones who cared so much. And there's this idea of the Nephi complex where you're used to being the noble and great one in your family, and you're used to all that positive affirmation and that respect, frankly, it's your parents or your siblings or your ward community members give you. And when ex Mormons misbehave with believing family and friends, it's because they refuse to accept the fact that they've shifted from the position of being Nephi or the privileged, righteous, noble and great child or sibling, they've shifted to a position of being disrespected and devalued and view and being viewed as the problem or being viewed as a disappointment. And so much of our misbehavior of getting angry of, of lashing out, of trying to preach and lecture and, and mistreat our believing family and friends, frankly, is, is out of an unwillingness to accept that we have become a disappointment in their eyes. And the more you try and resist the fact that you've become a disappointment, the more suffering you cause yourself.

Leah Young [02:12:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] And them. And the more you ruin the relationship. And the thing that's totally counterintuitive is the moment that you really work on just accepting the fact that you've become a disappointment to them and that you may always be a disappointment to them for the rest of your of. Of their life and yours. That seems maybe like the worst thing I could possibly suggest. And ironically it's often the gateway to the most healing and to the happiest you and even potentially to the healing and growth of your eventual relationship. Because as long as you're trying to force them to respect a decision that they cannot ever in their current state of mind, respect, you're going to create tension and pain and suffering and stress in the relationship by trying to force them to respect something they simply can't respect. But the moment you just say, hey, I am now a disappointment to you and I will probably always be a disappointment to you on some level. Where do we go from here? What can we build now knowing that I'm going to be a disappointment to you for the rest of your life? You let go trying to force something that is never gonna change. And then you build on what remains. And it may not be that same relationship where as you say, you're the apple of their eye and that's there's gonna be a death and you're gonna have to grieve that. But on the flip side, it is where you are now. And whatever relationship remains will be whatever it is. And if there's a big chasm and a big hole that's left in your heart and in your self esteem by no longer getting that external validation, well guess what? You can fill it in two ways. You can fill it by other better relationships or more authentic relationships or more accepting relationships. But there's even better a way to fill it. And what is that? You told us at the very beginning. It's to learn to fill your own cup.

Leah Young [02:14:56] To step away from the need to have external validation.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Exactly. That is the hero's journey of the ex Mormon heroes journey is to not need your parents validation anymore for you to feel good about who you are. We all learn to depend on our parents validation to feel good about ourselves. And maturity is to cut that cord and no longer have that umbilical cord of depending on your parents. Validation for you to feel like you're a good human being.

Leah Young [02:15:24] Yeah. Parents or community or friends or any. Any. Any external validation. Right. And I'd be lying if I said I've cut that cord completely because I do still care about what people think of me. Right. Like, in an ideal world, I will say I have cut that cord. Right. But it, you know, to some degree, it still matters. But I'll say that it's been so. I feel like I've emancipated myself and just freed myself. And it really took me realizing what you just shared. I can't just. I just can't even change your view and your opinion. And something that's helpful for me is I do see. How do I say this in a sensitive way? I. I think there's two victims, if you will, in the situation. I think there are so many amazing, active, orthodox, believing members of the church who would act differently if they weren't. I'm gonna say victims because I don't know a better word, and I hope that's not demeaning, but of a system that has caused them to feel a lot of fear and to feel that their eternal relationship with their family is dependent on everyone conforming to this idea. Right. And there's just so much fear at play. And so remembering that helps me to separate my loved one from the fact that they have these Mormon goggles on. And they wouldn't be behaving this way if they weren't indoctrinated in this way.

John Dehlin [02:16:58] Yeah. Love it.

Guest [02:16:59] Yeah. That's a really good way to put it. That's probably at the impetus of why I was crying like a child, because you're like, I. Like, I. I love you, Mom. I love you, dad.

Leah Young [02:17:10] You.

Guest [02:17:11] You are not speaking. Once you talk about the church, we talk about everything else, but once we start talking about the church and that dividing line, you become a different person, you know?

Leah Young [02:17:20] Right, right.

Guest [02:17:22] Like, your love becomes very conditional.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:17:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:28] And that's probably my biggest critique of what I've experienced about Mormon love, is that it's conditional. It's conditional on obeying the Church. And that's not, for me, that's not the highest form of love, love. That's conditional on obeying a religious institution.

Leah Young [02:17:47] Yeah.

Guest [02:17:47] And I always like to say it's like a DIY God, because everyone has a different version of what the Mormon God wants in their head. The certain level of temple attendance and the right amount of Scripture study that's in. Everyone has their own version of what he cares about in their own head. Does he care about LGTBT issues? If you listen to the. The Brethren, he sure. He sure doesn't. You know, you ask my parents, like, oh, this is wrong. You ask a progressive Mormon parent, they'll say something else. And so it's a guessing game then 31 flavors right there sometimes is of personal revelation. Oh, don't worry about that. Why are you feeling traumatized about this? I didn't feel traumatized about like, everyone has their own version in their head. And yeah, if you're trying to live up to that version, and that's what was always really difficult for me is coming out of Mormonism. Like, I don't even know what the Mormon Church believes sometimes because everybody was taught different things sometimes and has their different experiences and sorry.

Leah Young [02:18:38] And what it is now is so different from what it used to be in many ways. So, yeah, changes.

Lesson Five: The Power of Asking Questions

John Dehlin [02:18:43] All right, number five. Number five. Questions are key.

Leah Young [02:18:48] Questions are key. Questions are amazing because they lead to connections. They lead to people feeling safe with us and seen by us. And you know something? When this idea came to mind when I was on the plane flying here, I thought about how so many parents are very afraid as we were, to talk to their kids about a faith transition or about where they're at now. And questions are really the key to that. And coupled with not fixing people's feelings, when we realize that it's not our job to fix anyone's feelings, then we become safer and other people feel seen. Right. We often, we don't want to share feelings so that someone will tell us how to make it better or share a difficult experience so that someone will solve it for us. And so if parents out there who are listening or maybe grappling with how do we move through this with our children? My greatest recommendation, my most simple recommendation, or I should say what worked for us, was leaning into lots of questions. So I'm going to offer some of the questions that we've used and these could be directed. This doesn't need to just be with children. This could be a question that you might ask to any person that you're in relationship in a variety of contexts. It could be with a transition, it could be in other ways. But I feel like I've developed deeper friendships through asking questions, stepping away from assumptions or stepping away from the need to fix. And often if I do offer an idea to someone, even a child, I'll say, you know, would you like to brainstorm this, or are you open to some of the thoughts that I'm having come up? So almost asking if they're wanting to just be heard, right. As I'm asking the questions, or if eventually they're wanting some input. Right. So I'm sensitive around that, especially when we're talking about children going through a transition. So questions that might be valuable could sound like, you know, what feels like the hardest part of this for you? You might be asking this to someone who's going through a divorce or to your child who's going through a faith transition. This would be great for people who are believing, who have loved ones going through a faith transition. Right. What's the hardest part of this for you right now? And then just acknowledge and validate that. Like, yeah, that's really hard. Right? Or is there any part of this that has you feeling thankful right now? Or what are you learning through this experience? Or what about you feels like it's changing now that you're seeing things differently or now that you're coming face to face with this new reality, what would support look like for you right now? I know I touched on that before. There are. There are books, actually, there's coaching books, some that I have that are literally filled with thousands of questions that you can ask people. And again, realizing that we don't have to be the solution to any kinds of feelings that come out make us safer. So when I'm coaching with parents, I offer this idea of, what do you think it would be like to ask your child what's feeling the most sad right now? And often parents will say, I've never thought about asking my child a question like that. And we'll tap into I wonder why. And what we realize and what we uncover is there's a lot of fears that we have. We're afraid to hear the answers. Right. And we don't actually think to ask the questions. But also we're afraid to hear the answers because we might not have the solution, but we don't have to have the solution to anyone's problem, to no one's problems. And in fact, the sooner we cannot fix people, the sooner we become safe. Something else in terms of, you know, tapping into this idea of questions or, you know, trying to help people feel seen, especially in terms of children, is this idea of inviting those feelings to be okay. And so, for example, something I might say is, I'm wondering if you're feeling upset right now or, you know, when I put myself in your shoes, I think I'd be feeling Confused. Am I on the right track? Because children, especially with parents, they don't want to disappoint their parents. Right. So they might not want to share feelings that they think would be disappointing to their parents. So inviting those feelings to be okay, either when it's with children or with friends. Right. Like, we had this interaction, and I'm guessing that it might have been uncomfortable for you. I don't know. Did anything come up for you? Right. Can be a way to understand someone else and to step out of projecting our reality or assuming what is true for them. And it's just a beautiful way to foster connection in relationships. And it's, you know, and it's something that we can do towards our believing family and friends. Even we, you know, if we're in the right space, in the right relationship, we might consider saying, what's feeling the saddest for you right now? Or what's feeling the hardest for you? And again, I would really tap into your own internal world to see if that's the right thing for you to do in any kind of relationship. But I think questions are a beautiful thing, and I think it's a simple thing for people to remember that asking questions can be pivotal to greater understanding and to deeper connections in relationships.

John Dehlin [02:24:43] Yeah, I love it. You know, I'm just reminded my. My daughter Clara just had her wisdom teeth out, four wisdom teeth out, just the past week or two. And we thought it was going to be kind of a quick thing, like just a couple days, and she'd be fine. And she suffered for the good part of eight, eight, nine days. Really suffered. And we did everything we could to help her. And what, what. What started happening was after we had done everything we could do, I would try. I was being really uncomfortable with her being in pain. And so we were tempted to say things like, you're going to be fine. It'll be better tomorrow. Just hold on. You know, aren't the meds working yet? And Clara made it really clear to me that anything other than just saying, I'm so sorry, that's super hard. What can I do to show up for you right right now? That got me to the place of what she really needed and what she needed for me was for me to lie down next to her in bed and hold her hand. And then every time she said she was crying, and every time she was crying and in pain, I would just say, I'm so sorry, Clara. I'm so sorry. And anything else, trying to fix it, trying to rationalize it, trying to reassure her was not what she needed. And the only way I got to that is by asking what can I do to show up for you? So that's a question that I found is really powerful with my loved ones ones is what can I do right now to show up for you? And it's almost never to fix it. It's pretty much never some answer, some solved problem that you solve. It's almost never that. And you only know by asking and

Leah Young [02:26:41] you know that first of all that's so beautiful. So just think about you supporting her in that way. And another thing is that you asked her an open ended question. And I think that that's key is that we remember that open ended questions rather than yes, no connect questions are generally more substantive and lead to someone sharing. So making sure that we, that we ask those open ended questions can be valuable.

John Dehlin [02:27:11] I love it. I love it.

Leah Young [02:27:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:15] Okay, that's number five. Yes, the power of questions. Number six is intentional vulnerability. Now that sounds hard and scary. Why would anyone intentionally be vulnerable? Vulnerable is weakness. Right?

Lesson Six: Practicing Intentional Vulnerability

Leah Young [02:27:31] Well, so when I say intentional, what I'm meaning, what I'm referring to is deciding when, where, how and with whom we choose to be vulnerable. And again, I'm going to a circle back to some of the coaching sessions that I had early on with Margi that felt very pivotal for me when she was. And also with you, John. You described this concept of vulnerability as you talked about a tray and putting your heart on a tray. I don't know if you use this a lot, but I remember it. And you said, you know, when you're choosing to be vulnerable with someone, it's like you're handing your heart on a platter to that person and you know, are they going to take care of your heart or are they going to throw it on the ground and stomp on it? And so it's important to choose wisely who we open up with. You know, offering our vulnerability in relationship means making something that's important to us vulnerable to the actions of someone else. And distrust forms when you know, what I have shared with you that's important to me is not safe with you. And so we want to start using the responses of others as information. Like I'm going to dip my toe into the pool of vulnerability and I'm going to see what comes back if I want to choose. And depending on what comes back, that's useful information, right? Whether it's positive or negative, we're going to just say this is useful information that's going to inform whether I want to open up to this person.

John Dehlin [02:29:11] So you're kind of saying test. Test their safety Almost.

Leah Young [02:29:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] Test the smaller.

Leah Young [02:29:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:29:17] Examples of vulnerability.

Leah Young [02:29:18] Absolutely. In all relationships, like, is this a safe place to open up or not? I think it's important to remember that limiting vulnerability is not mean. Right. Especially for women. You know, we've really been conditioned to think that we should sit in front of complete strangers who have authority over us and to just share really private, personal things and that we might make other people uncomfortable if we're not willing to do that. Well, again, it's not our job to make other people feel comfortable all the time. And similarly, and this comes up a lot in coaching when we're talking about limiting vulnerability. Like, women especially will say, but that's gonna make them feel uncomfortable. And. Yeah, it might. And it's not your job to always make people feel comfortable all the time. Right. So we can release that. It's really a healthy and liberating boundary to be thoughtful about where we open up and with whom. And also recognizing that ongoing vulnerability with unsafe people creates unnecessary suffering. And I think going back to that idea that you. You presented, that we. When we fall from grace, we so want to be seen as worthy with our loved ones. And we think that by opening up again and again, by sharing long letters with loved ones or getting into these long conversations and offering this vulnerability, that somehow we're going to reclaim that worthiness in their eyes. And generally, it just leads to more suffering. And so I'm going to recommend really limiting that vulnerability. And I found that it's felt freeing to no longer just see everybody as earning my trust and my vulnerability. Right. And I kind of wrote out two lists here to share, you know, what safe people feel like to me and what unsafe people feel like to me. And hopefully these will help your listeners to maybe identify some guideposts of where they may want to limit their vulnerability or where they might feel more safe leaning into their vulnerability.

John Dehlin [02:31:32] Okay.

Leah Young [02:31:33] Okay. So people who feel safe to me will, if I'm offering vulnerability, they will ask additional questions to understand more about what I shared. That really shows me that they care about what I'm saying. They may, given the, you know, different things in different contexts, but they might reassure me of their unconditional love for me. They will treat my vulnerability with tenderness. And that might even mean thanking me for opening up. So, you know, vulnerability really is a gift. And so when people can show that they're thankful that you've opened up, that means that they're safe. And they might ask, how can I best support you? How can I show up for you right now? Instead of assuming or telling me the right way to do things, they might say, what does support look like for you right now? Just like what you did with Clara. And in fact, on my website, I have a list that wasn't written by me. It was written by Brene Brown. And that document is called Healthy Relationship Guideposts, and it's on my resource page. And that can be a really valuable place to understand at least what Brene Brown believes are healthy relationships, what trust and distrust means, and to be able to start evaluating your relationships and how you want to show up and how you want to share. So people who feel unsafe to me when my vulnerability becomes about them, right? Meaning that maybe they'll become a victim and they'll respond in reactivity. They'll get upset because they feel uncomfortable or angry about what I've shared. You know, if they interrupt me or cut me off, if they hijack the conversation, that feels unsafe or if they blame me for how they're feeling, like it's your fault that I feel this way and you need to do something differently so I won't feel uncomfortable. Those are some, for me, some of the signs that people are unsafe and that I probably won't be offering them much vulnerability.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] I love it. I mean, there is this idea, don't cast your pearls before swine. Right. Which is not a pleasant metaphor per se. But the idea behind it is your vulnerability is precious, your heart is precious, and you want to share it with people who deserve that and who are going to take care and not trample on. On your feelings. So I just want to review this one more time. So people who ask you questions, people who try to seek to understand, who really reassure you about their unconditional love, who are tender, who thank you for being vulnerable, and who. Who ask you how they can best support you. They're the ones who feel safe. And it's also occurring to me that if we want to be safe to our family and friends, non believing and believing, we can model these behaviors as well.

Leah Young [02:34:35] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:34:35] It's not just how we want them to treat us. It's both ways we can treat. So if a believing family member is acting out, we can turn it back on them and say, hey, I love you unconditionally, and I'll be tender with your expressions of fear for me and frustration. And I'll thank them for being open about their fears and this is what you were doing with me when I was playing your dad and basically asking how. Yeah, like, if they're saying, wear your garments or go to the temple, you can say, look, I'm being how I'm being, but I can tell you're sad and afraid. Other than you telling me how to behave, how can I show up for you in ways that I can actually show up? And we can turn this back on them and model, not only treat them with love and compassion, but also model the behavior we're seeking from them.

Leah Young [02:35:27] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'd say one caveat to that is if we're, you know, we have to be mindful. If we're in an interaction that feels abusive in any way, that feels like this is unhealthy, that's probably not a place to show up in those ways. That's probably a place to just really limit. So I just want to say, you know, some people aren't safe.

John Dehlin [02:35:52] Some people aren't even to try and be supportive of.

Leah Young [02:35:55] Correct? Right, Correct. So in some relationships, that might really work with believing family and friends. And in some relationships, you really need to check in with your unique situation. And I just want people to know that there's different relationships and there's different ways of engaging that will and won't work depending on.

John Dehlin [02:36:17] I love it.

Leah Young [02:36:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:19] Okay, we're at part seven, which is, I don't have it figured out. Life can still be hard, and that's okay. This sounds like some acceptance.

Leah Young [02:36:29] Yeah. Yeah. You know, I often will get messages from people saying, you know, it just seems like you guys kind of have it all figured out, and your transition really wasn't very hard. And I think they're coming from a place of, like, wow, how did you just sail through this? And I guess what I want to say is it's hard, and we didn't. And I think sometimes maybe social media can not reflect the reality of most people's lives.

John Dehlin [02:37:02] Okay, so are you saying that if I look at the Leah and Cody young family and see these beautiful, healthy parents and four beautiful children, that that doesn't mean that everything's amazing and awesome and happy and bubbly all the time? Is that what you're saying? Are you saying even for the Young, life is messy and hard?

Leah Young [02:37:23] Life is messy and hard, and there's a lot of things that have become better in our lives. I feel that there's just so much growth and joy that we've experienced, and yet we struggle. We struggle in our parenting. We struggle, you know, in our relationship. We are human, huge fans of psychological Support. We go to marriage counseling. You know, we, we go to therapy. We, you know, parenting, for example, outside of, of the church is brand new territory and such.

John Dehlin [02:37:57] But you and Cody go to therapy?

Leah Young [02:37:58] Yes, consistently.

John Dehlin [02:38:00] Really?

Leah Young [02:38:01] Yes. It's such a priority. And you're a coach and I need coaching. I have two therapists and we've learned and grown so much. And before we left the church, we were going to therapy as well. And we just feel like, I wish therapy weren't seen as a last resort. I think that is shifting, fortunately. But I think that healthy humans and healthy people in relationships are constantly prioritizing those relationships and willing to work on them. And often we'll go to our therapy appointments without anything specifically to discuss. But we book them out, you know, six, seven months in advance because we just want that constant check in. We want to constantly be showing up for each other. And there's always something that we, that we can be working on. You know, I remember a conversation that you and I had when I became a coach, and you said, you just wait. Your children, I don't know exactly what you said, but your children are going to kind of hold this against you. They're going to say, well, you're a coach, you should know this or that. And that's actually hard because I do know up here several valuable things, and I know how to share or teach ways to show up. I've shared several of those things in our interview today. And the reality is that there is a chasm there. You know, I'm not always, not even close to always at 100%, and I don't expect myself to be at 100%. But I also know I have more of a framework for what my highest self would look like more than I did before. That feels authentic to me. So when I do fall short, that's hard. And I do fall short.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] And kids will remind you and my kids remind me. You're a coach and you're being a terrible parent right now. Right?

Leah Young [02:39:56] Exactly. Yeah, that's. That's a reality in my life. You should, you know, better. You teach your, you teach people how to do this and you're not doing, you know, and that's true.

John Dehlin [02:40:06] It's so hard.

Leah Young [02:40:07] It is true.

John Dehlin [02:40:08] So because then you second guess yourself, you're like, well, then I shouldn't be right and help anyone.

Leah Young [02:40:13] There is.

John Dehlin [02:40:14] I'm screwing it up. I'm goofing up. Like, my kids think I suck, so I have no business teaching anyone anything. But then there'd be no helpers that's the problem?

Leah Young [02:40:24] Because there's no perfect people.

John Dehlin [02:40:25] Yeah. And also you can learn tools that help generally. And then there could be specific children or specific humans where none of the tools are going to help in their particular with who they particularly are or in their particular situation. So not all tools and lessons are going to be relevant for all people in all situations, just flat out.

Leah Young [02:40:49] And in parenting, there's so many wild cards, you know?

John Dehlin [02:40:51] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:40:51] I mean, there's a lot.

John Dehlin [02:40:54] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:40:55] It's hard.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:40:56] And, you know, we don't have the framework, we don't have the answers. So we are just working the best we can with the tools that we have. We feel that we are healthier parents, parenting outside of conformity. We feel like we are teaching our children to navigate their lives in meaningful and beautiful ways. And yet there isn't that perceived certainty. It's false certainty when you're in the church. But there is a layer, there is a level of comfort. Right. With thinking that you know exactly how everything's gonna turn out. It's not true, it's not real, but there is a level of comfort with that idea of doing it this way and believing your kids are going to turn out this way. And that's not healthy. But, you know, getting comfortable with not knowing exactly what it's going to look like is. Can be hard sometimes.

John Dehlin [02:41:56] Yeah. Yeah. And so just. Are you saying that as a parent, as an individual, as a child just learning to say life is messy, I'm going to get it wrong. I'm going to goof up. My kids may mess up. My kids may really stumble. I may get depressed or sad or make mistakes. My marriage may be hard. Things may even fall apart for a time or even permanently. There's no escaping the messiness and the pain and suffering of life. And are you saying that there's some comfort in just accepting that?

Leah Young [02:42:37] Yeah, that is reality. And I felt like it was important to say that because I think that we can sometimes look at people and think they've got it all figured out. And I just hope no one would look at me and think that, because it's not true. I don't have it all figured out. I still wonder sometimes who I would have been or the choices I would have made if I weren't a woman, a girl raised in the church. And that can be really sad. Still, I can really have some big feelings around that. And there isn't necessarily a solution to that. It's just sort of a question that comes up for me, and that's One of those things that feels sad and that feels hard to sit with. And I know I'm probably in good company with a lot of other women who feel the same way. I know that based on my coaching practice that, you know, those what ifs are hard. There isn't necessarily a solution to the what ifs. And I still miss being Mormon sometimes. You know, I was Mormon for 37 out of my 40 years of life. And so my set point is being Mormon. My identity was being Mormon. And, and although I'm so grateful for the breakthroughs that I've experienced both personally and in my relationships, there is a part of me that still misses and mourns what still is my most natural set point. Because, you know, and I think this is important for people to remember because I'll have clients who will say, you know, well, I've been, you know, it should be over this. Like I've been out of the church for a year and I say, well, how old are you? You know, well, I'm 47. Okay, so for 47 years on this planet, your identity, your family, your culture, your community, everything was a part of this community. So that feels still more natural to you than not being a part of it. And it's going to take some time for that to slowly dissipate. My brother in law once said to me, and he was maybe eight years out at the time of the church and he said, it's kind of like there's this hole in your heart, there's this black hole in your heart when you leave the church. And it slowly gets smaller over time, but it might not ever be gone. And so it's true, it's just still sad and it's still hard sometimes. And I miss it. I do miss it. I don't miss a lot. There are certain things I miss, you know, but I think it's okay for people to grieve and for people to be sad. And you know, I think that's really a cruel, a cruel part of this is that because of my values and because of what I've learned, I can no longer be a part of this community. And not that I necessarily want to now that I'm where I'm at, but I also miss some of the beautiful parts of it and some of the benefits. And I can't, I can't benefit my kids can't benefit from those, from some of those positive things about the community and about having warm, caring, loving, upstanding, you know, leaders in their life who can participate in, you know, Being a positive influence on them. So there are things that are just really crappy about it.

What We Miss About Mormon Community

John Dehlin [02:46:05] What do you miss most?

Leah Young [02:46:08] I think I miss the community most. Yeah. Just feeling like, You know, you have people sometimes it'll. It'll come up at the most interesting times, you know, as I'm trying to parent four children and have a career and have my kids home for the summer. And there's just so many. It's like figuring out a puzzle every single day how to get this kid to that camp and how to make, you know, and just how to meet all the needs on my own. Having no family. And in the church, there's just this service aspect to it where you always have somebody you can call. And so even just getting my kids driven, you know, a five minute drive from one place to another because I'm with another child at a camp, it can be an exhausting experience, you know, So I always felt like I had a support network and I have friends now, but. And they're wonderful. They are wonderful, but it's different, you know, it's not like, oh, I have like one of 30 people to call. It's like, I hope one of my couple of friends can do this, you know, can help me, like. And so it feels lonely. I mean, I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't go back. But I was telling my brother last night, like, if only believers could have some compassion for how hard, you know, how hard it is. Like, we don't. We just, we didn't choose this, you know, we didn't choose to lose our community and our kids didn't choose to lose their friends. And we didn't want to become a danger to people. So that's the community. It's hard.

John Dehlin [02:48:33] I'm so sorry.

Leah Young [02:48:35] Thank you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:40] Our solution is just for the Young to move to Utah. Yeah, that's Margi and I. That's our solution to that problem.

Leah Young [02:48:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:48] Yeah. That may not be good for you, but that's what we want.

Guest [02:48:52] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:48:52] That would be amazing in some ways. In other ways it would be really bad. But we would love to be closer to you guys.

John Dehlin [02:49:01] Well, I love it that you're modeling that grieving. And just like with Clara, I want to say to Clara, it's all going to be better.

Leah Young [02:49:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:09] That wasn't helpful. And for us to learn to just sit with that discomfort and say, maybe, maybe there's always going to be that little hole inside.

Leah Young [02:49:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:20] And maybe it's not going to. Maybe it'll go away. Maybe you'll Find solutions, but maybe you won't, and that's part of it.

Leah Young [02:49:26] And, you know, maybe that journey. And I think something that Margi, again, is so beautiful in her example to me of is just how do we show up for ourselves when we are feeling those. You know, maybe we can't fix it, but maybe we can show up for ourselves in compassion and kindness and support ourselves through the grieving and the pain. And, you know, maybe it isn't a solution, but maybe it's just kindness towards ourselves when things are difficult.

John Dehlin [02:49:54] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:49:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:56] Beautiful.

Leah Young [02:49:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] So, Leah, I know that there's a letter that I think Brinley wrote you that I think would be really wonderful if maybe, as we close, you'd be willing to share that letter with us. Would that be okay?

Leah Young [02:50:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:50:12] Okay.

Leah Young [02:50:12] Yeah. And I wore this necklace that kind of goes along with the letter she actually also gifted me. This was for a birthday a couple years ago with four little. A necklace that has four little golden leaves. And so the context of this is that Avery, after we had left the church, did decide to go to girls camp that following year. And in girls camp, they were talking, they had a lesson in the trees about how the tree is representative of your testimony. And there's different stages of your testimony. And when you have a strong testimony, it's in full bloom and the tree is blossoming. But then if you have a weak testimony, then the tree is dying and the leaves are falling off. So that gives context so that people will understand this letter. And so I just took a portion of the letter from this birthday letter that she had given me. Dear Mom, I was thinking a lot about the different seasons of a testimony that Avery learned about at girls camp. And it was bothering me because I couldn't figure out which season we fit into anymore. Our leaves on our tree aren't dead. We've grown. They aren't in full bloom because we don't have a testimony of the church anymore. I decided they left out a season, the one that our family has stepped into thanks to your bravery to step a toe out of the box, learn what broke your heart, and still keep going. This is the season of the golden tree. Your leaves are golden now. You have stepped past dogma, needing validation from an organization and the approval of others. In it, you've grown out of a belief system and into freedom with an open mind and more compassionate heart. This is the highest and most beautiful state of living. Your worthiness is no longer dependent on your conviction and how long your testimony stays in the summer phase. The golden tree isn't a phase or a season. It's something that you awakened, a place you can stay for the rest of your life. The big leaf on this necklace represents the awakening that you led yourself through by letting the uncomfortable into your heart right by where the necklace lays. The earrings have four little leaves on them representing the journey you have guided, guided us on respecting each of our paths, even the turns that might feel uncomfortable to you. You have raised four little leaves and awakened us to our golden tree that we never knew was there until you took the biggest leap of faith in your whole life. If I had to thank you for doing one thing for me in my 16 years, it would be telling me what broke my heart, changed my life, and ultimately led me to my golden tree. I love you, mom. Happy birthday. Love, Brynlee.

John Dehlin [02:53:02] And that's why we love Brinley and all your children, because they're so dang wise. And I'm sure Cody had something to do with that. And I know you had something to do with that. And mostly it's just them, us getting out of the way of our beautiful children. Yeah. What a beautiful letter.

Leah Young [02:53:18] Thank you. And yes, I'm glad you mentioned Cody. Shout out to Cody, who has just grown in beautiful ways that I admire and that I respect. And watching how he's evolved as a father, how he's managing his own reactivity and triggers, how he has stepped into an emotional high ground that is so beautiful to witness. In fact, the other day, you know, raising four kids, three teenage girls and one soon to be teenage girl, is a lot of emotional heavy lifting at times. And I can feel very weary and tired. And he supports me in beautiful ways. But I remember just a couple, just recently, he said to me at a point when I said, I can't have another long talk. I'm so tired. I just can't do it anymore, anymore. Like, I can't. I'm just done. He said, you know, I. I don't think that we will ever regret taking the time to revisit the lessons, taking the time to have the conversations, even if it's the same conversation again and again and again. I know you're tired, but I think that we need to keep. To keep doing it. Even if you feel like you've said it a hundred times, even if you feel like this is redundant, let's continue to choose to show up. So I just want to acknowledge his beautiful journey and he couldn't be here today. He's, you know, we have a lot to accomplish when we're in Utah and a lot of people to see, but he's. He's just blossomed in amazing ways that I'm so that I just celebrate and that warm my heart. So.

Lesson Seven: Processing Grief and Anger

John Dehlin [02:54:58] All right, well, those are the seven lessons that Lee has learned as a post Mormon mom and as a.

Leah Young [02:55:04] Seven. Seven of the lessons.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] Seven.

Leah Young [02:55:07] There's so many more.

John Dehlin [02:55:08] Yeah.

Leah Young [02:55:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:09] Beautiful.

Leah Young [02:55:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:12] Well, Kara, I think you. Maybe you've assembled a question or two that you wanted to ask at the end. Is there anything you want to go ahead and throw to Leah?

Guest [02:55:20] Well, the only other thing is just. All right, I'm in an emotional space, Leah, let's share some emotions.

Leah Young [02:55:25] Me too.

Guest [02:55:26] I guess the only thing that I think you touched on, maybe it was during the time that I had to run to the bathroom, might have been that. I don't know if it's being a woman, being in a church, being in a patriarchal church, the need to be nice and knowing when am I being nice because I'm putting up a boundary or I'm being nice because I was trained to be nice. And then the flip side of that is like, when do I get to just scream into the void? When do I get a pound my fist against the wall? When is that healthy to be angry? And then when do I know when it's. It's done? Being angry? That's like four questions in one. I'm sorry, but there's so much, I think, in women's heads about conformity and kindness and taking some time to, like, letting yourself say a couple swear words. I don't know, does that. Am I making any sense?

Leah Young [02:56:16] Yeah, I think that you are. And I think that.

John Dehlin [02:56:19] Is there a role for anger for ex Mormon women?

Leah Young [02:56:21] Right. Absolutely, I think there's a role.

John Dehlin [02:56:24] And even expressing the anger.

Leah Young [02:56:26] Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, I think it's an interesting question. A couple things come up for me. One is actually in the question. Okay, I want to say this lovingly, but I want to kind of dig a little bit deeper. So it's interesting that we. Sometimes I'm asked questions as a coach where I will say, I'm wondering if you're asking someone who you perceive as an external authority figure what the right way to do this is. I'm wondering if. Because maybe I don't have that answer for you. Does that make sense? So I don't actually know what is going to be right or best for you, but do I think that there's value in feeling angry feelings? Yes. Based on your personality and my personality And a variety of others that's going to look different and feel different. So I would encourage you to, you know, does that look like swearing to you? Does that look like being physical and running to you? Does that look like needing to really process verbally with someone to you? So being able to identify what does. What do those angry feelings, like, how does my expression. How is my expression of those unique to me? Right. So identifying that for yourself. And then I think for me, one of those ways of. I think one of the questions you asked is. And there were a few questions there, so I want to make sure I don't question this.

Guest [02:58:07] I'm just so articulate to my rambling, incoherent question.

Leah Young [02:58:10] I think one of your questions questions was maybe in relationships you might need to clarify this for me.

Guest [02:58:16] I think as a post Mormon, like, all of these things we're talking about, like, that we're angry at a system that is so unjust and like, I don't know when it's time to move on and not be angry anymore. Yeah. And I don't know if that sometimes me trying to just be nice and complicit.

Leah Young [02:58:34] Right. Right.

Guest [02:58:35] And just be like, actually, it's fine. I can swallow down all of the angry feelings. And sometimes you have to unlearn being complicit in a patriarchal system. And so I think that's maybe the root of it. But you're totally right. Like, that's gonna look different for different people. And there's no right answer or wrong answer. And maybe I just want to voice that if anyone's listening, let's all validate each other. That there's an angry space.

Leah Young [02:59:01] Yes.

Guest [02:59:02] That needs to be held to go through totally.

Leah Young [02:59:05] And that might be two months for some person and five years for another person. And maybe the question that's valuable to ask ourselves is, what is supporting me right now? Like, is feeling angry what I'm really needing to experience right now? Right. Or is continuing to be in this angry space supporting my highest ideals for myself right now? So I would just redirect that to each individual to tune into themselves and to sit with themselves. And I would say that there probably isn't a perfect program or an ideal or a should. Like, there's really no shoulds here. And I think stepping out of that idea of when should I stop or when should I, like, maybe we can eradicate that and just be okay with what's coming up for you. Is it supporting you to experience this? If yes, then good. If no, then, then okay. Let's try something else. Let's try stepping into a different place. And for me, not being willing to enmesh myself in those conversations that aren't fruitful feels powerful and liberating. And it also is sort of a way for me to. To kind of say no, you know, like, I'm not going to process that anger, for example, with people who don't. Who aren't going to support what.

Guest [03:00:34] Who are so far removed from what. Good healing.

Leah Young [03:00:36] Exactly.

Guest [03:00:37] That don't even understand why I need healing.

Leah Young [03:00:39] Exactly. So if. So if we need to feel those angry feelings, being thoughtful about those spaces is valuable. So maybe that's in a support group, or maybe that's with a therapist, a mental health professional, a coach. Maybe that's with a friend who's gone through it. Maybe that's the space where you need to process that. And then over in this other space is the better space to be boundaried and limited in your vulnerability.

Guest [03:01:03] That's something. I'm so glad you articulated that so well because I think anyone who's like, you know, a day post shelf break or something, I think what you just said is incredibly valuable for people in that. That new, fresh space that they.

Leah Young [03:01:18] That there.

Guest [03:01:18] I don't use the word space too many times, but that new, fresh pain. I guess that there needs to be different spaces held. And as soon as you can, to the sound of this voice, like, find those different spaces of the differentiating that we've been talking about and like, that will at least set you up for success. And going back to what Margi was talking about, you can still do your best and it won't work out. You can be angry or you can be completely perfect, but at least differentiating the two different spaces that need to be held, I think that's perfect.

Leah Young [03:01:47] Yeah. Thank you for that question.

Coaching Resources and Closing Gratitude

John Dehlin [03:01:53] All right, well, you've been super generous. I mean, I had this thought at one point that a good coach these days can charge 150, 200, 250. I know of one coach that charges like 350 bucks an hour. It is so kind of you to be willing to just for free come on this podcast and give like 600 or a thousand bucks worth of coaching for free, seriously, to our listeners or more. That's super generous.

Leah Young [03:02:25] Thank you. I hope something that I've said has helped. That's really why I'm a coach. I really do want to help people. I feel personally connected to it because I've gone through the experience and I know that for some they can't afford one on one coaching and I know about several of those people and so I'm really excited actually because I if something about the communication components of what I shared feel intriguing or valuable. I've actually created a course. It's a five week course that's going to be happening this fall starting the first Wednesday of September. It'll be every Wednesday night for one hour at 9pm Eastern time. It can either be for an individual or a couple living in the same home and it's the same price. So for the five week course on communication it's $199. They're going to get a follow up email with everything that we discussed.

John Dehlin [03:03:21] That's like one hour of coaching depending

Leah Young [03:03:24] on the coach, one to two hours.

John Dehlin [03:03:26] And they're getting what out of that?

Leah Young [03:03:27] They're getting five hours of instruction.

John Dehlin [03:03:30] Whoa.

Leah Young [03:03:31] They're getting some role playing time for role playing time for specific questions. So the setup is going to be 30 minutes of instruction, 30 minutes of role playing, question and answer so that we can specifically talk about things that are coming up for the individuals or for the couples. They'll get a recording of each of the zoom meetings and then they'll get all of the notes. So the registration for that is open and you, you can find that on my website under courses.

John Dehlin [03:04:00] Yeah. And I just want to say for those listening, once you're sensitive to how much there's need out there and how expensive coaching and therapy is and how limited there is a number of providers and how big the demand is, anytime any coach or therapist is trying to figure out how to help more people in more effective ways for cheaper amount per person or couple, I'm just like, you know, this isn't about like how to how does anyone make more money. This is about how do we help more people.

Leah Young [03:04:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:33] In a sustainable way.

Leah Young [03:04:35] Right.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] So I applaud you for doing that. Like Natasha started did these marriage on a tightrope retreats or workshops with all these mixed faith marriage they were able to help like 20, 30 couples, you know, over like an eight week period but for some incredibly small amount of money. And I just want to celebrate and applaud you for using your creativity, your hard work and your resources to innovate in ways where you're trying to help more people and make it affordable. I just think that's amazing.

Leah Young [03:05:05] So thank you. Yeah, that really is the goal. And you know, for the content what happened is themes just emerge. I mean you know this, Margi knows this. Anyone who's in the space of Coaching through Faith Transitions knows that themes emerge again and again and again. And one of the big themes is communication. So what I've done is I've taken what my past clients have come back to me and said, these are the most valuable things I learned in coaching with you. I've taken those most valuable things that I've heard have been helpful for others, and I've condensed them into this course.

John Dehlin [03:05:40] Beautiful. So tell us again how to find that course and all the other Instagrams and accounts you want people to follow.

Leah Young [03:05:48] Okay, great. So that course is on my website, which is balancedlivingwithleah.com under courses. There's also a resource page where I've put a lot of resources that I feel like can be supportive.

John Dehlin [03:06:00] Books, podcast, episodes.

Leah Young [03:06:01] I mean, I have a lot of people who ask where I've kind of what's been meaningful to me in the spiritual realm. So I've put a lot of those resources on there. I mean, there's just lists and lists and lists. Spirituality, parenting, spirituality, parenting, communities of support, how to find those. So all those are on my resource page. There's some videos that might be meaningful. In fact, this necklace that I'm wearing is. Represents something really meaningful that.

John Dehlin [03:06:30] Show it to the camera. The microphone's blocking. Oh, there you go.

Leah Young [03:06:35] Yeah. Brinley wrote me a letter which is really meaningful, and she read it on a video on my page. And I think it can be really encouraging to people who have kids who are transitioning. So that can all be found on my website. The five week course is under courses and it's called the Communication Bootcamp. Also, I run an Instagram account called Balance Living with Leah. My goal here is to provide high value content that are just free tools that can really help people in their communication as they're transitioning, in creating new rituals and shifting into different paradigms in parenting. So that has a lot of content there. I also run an account called Parenting aftermormonism. I would love more contributors. I'm always trying to find content there. That's just a space where parents can share their stories, their challenges, their triumphs, and their their experiences as they've navigated with their children out of the church. And then my other Instagram account is at Love Builds Bridges. And that's a place where we really want to celebrate positive, loving ways that believing members are showing up for those who are transitioning and vice versa.

John Dehlin [03:07:50] What's that last one again?

Leah Young [03:07:52] Love Builds Bridges.

John Dehlin [03:07:54] That's an Instagram account.

Leah Young [03:07:55] That's the Instagram account Okay. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:07:59] All right. That's so great. Well, Lee, it's been so wonderful to catch up with you again.

Leah Young [03:08:05] Thank you for having me on.

John Dehlin [03:08:06] I just applaud all your work and love your family, and you guys are just great. So I just. Thanks for coming back on Mormon Stories. Thanks for sharing all this wisdom and thanks for the work you do to heal.

Leah Young [03:08:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:08:21] It's amazing.

Leah Young [03:08:23] It's really an honor to be. I feel like, I mean, this word may or may not be triggering for people, but I do feel that it's sacred work to show up for people in times of need and suffering. And it's such a gift to be in the space. And I'm really thankful to Mormon Stories and to the Delin family for the healing that it has provided for me and for my family, both the podcast, both coaching services. You have been so, such a gift to, I know, our family and to so many more families. And I'm really inspired by the work because it's hard work to continue to do. It's hard work, it's brave work, and it's beautiful work, and it's healing work. It's all the things. So thank you.

John Dehlin [03:09:09] Thanks, Leah. All right. And Kara, thanks so much for joining us today and for your. Your co co hosting with me.

Guest [03:09:20] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm gonna basically just like, listen to this on repeat, you know, when you're always trying to. Trying to find podcasts. If I ever just don't know what to listen to, I'm gonna listen to that one again, one we're doing right now, because I'm never gonna get sick of making history working for this podcast, because everything we do is like, I cry a lot on this. On this podcast, only not at home. Cold stuff. I'm stone cold. But otherwise, people who share their stories and are vulnerable enough to tell us where they got to, what they're at, and the lessons that I know people are, like, needing to feast on. Just. I'm. I'm in the TikTok space and this is a. Another really beautiful space, and people just need so much validation and healing. So I'm glad we're able to do that today. I hope we're able to do that today.

John Dehlin [03:10:05] All right. All right, everyone. Thanks for the support. Thanks for everyone who makes Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories foundation possible. If you're not a contributor and you want to be, if you want to see this type of programming, continue, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. We lose 10 or 20 donors every month and we need to replace them with new people. And less than one out of a thousand of our listeners or viewers actually contribute. So if you want to see this content, continue. If you'd like us to provide other sessions of coaching, whether it's with Leah or with Margi or with Natasha or other healers in our community, let us know. Email us if you found this super valuable. Comment@mormonstories.org, comment in YouTube, comment on Facebook, wherever on TikTok, wherever you find this content, comment, send us your feedback, let us know what you liked, what you didn't, what you want to see, and we'll provide you with whatever you need to help you with friends and family and help you in your journey. We just want to provide whatever content is going to be useful. So please reach out, please follow us and subscribe to us on all the platforms. Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, wherever, Twitter, wherever we have our platform that helps with the algorithms. It helps spread the love. Share this content with anyone you think might benefit from it, and mostly just keep being good to each other, loving each other, supporting each other, and let's all be committed to healing and growth and we'll slowly change our own lives, improve the lives of those around us, and in some way make the world a better place. So thanks everybody. Take care. See you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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