Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your co hosts for today, John De Lynn. I am excited to have writing shotgun for today. Back in the house, Samantha Shelley of Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:15] Hello, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] How you doing?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:17] Doing well.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Yeah. Thanks for joining us.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] You are excited for today's episode?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:22] I am, yeah. I'm a fan.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Yeah, you're a fan. For those of you who don't know, today we are interviewing a really cool couple. We're interviewing Tommy and Madison Johnson. Hey, Madison and Tommy. How you guys doing?

Madison Johnson [00:00:37] Good, how are you?

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Yeah, yeah. So some of you will know or recognize Tommy's face. Tommy is a Mormon tiktoker and Instagrammer. He is known as the Tomsters on both TikTok and Instagram and he's a comedian and we are here to talk about his Mormon story. But his amazing partner Madison is also here and I am always elated when we can have, when there is a couple, when we can have both join.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] There's going to be a lot we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about their, their Mormon story. Growing up in the church, different things that they faced as Mormons, what they loved about the church, if there were any struggles. But then we're going to talk about their faith journeys. Madison. Well, their, their families had faith journeys, their parents and, and so forth, siblings maybe, but also Madison had her own faith journey that might have been a little bit ahead of Tommy's, but then Tommy had his own. And there is going to be some mixed faith marriage and themes in here as well.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] And, and probably just full on faith crisis stuff and creating in kind of a social media world, kind of in the social media Mormon world. Now those are, those are some of the major highlights of what this story is going to touch on. What am I forgetting? Madison and Tommy, I think you covered it pretty well.

Tommy Johnson [00:02:09] Yeah, it's good list. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] How are you guys feeling about being on Mormon stories?

Tommy Johnson [00:02:14] Good. I know, I mean there's a point where people said like, hey, you should go on and I think I told them there's no chance. So I'm sure they're surprised and I'm surprised that we're here in the grand scheme of things. But today I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Okay. Madison, anything?

Madison Johnson [00:02:33] I'm excited to be here. I definitely did not ever think I would be here. I don't have a follow following. I'm just Tommy's wife. I'm not just Tommy's Wife, but you know what I mean? But, yeah, I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] All right, Samantha, anything you want to say before we jump in?

Samantha Shelley [00:02:52] Nope. I'm also just excited to be here.

Tommy's Mormon Childhood in Illinois

John Dehlin [00:02:54] All right, well, let's do it. So who. Who's older?

Tommy Johnson [00:02:59] I am.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] All right, so let's begin with Tommy. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Tommy Johnson [00:03:05] All right, so bare basics. I was born here in Utah, Spanish Fork. Well, technically Orem, but we lived in Spanish fork back in 1995, you know, years ago now. And I was at the time the second of two kids, but there's five kids now, but yeah, so we spent four years in Spanish Fork.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] Were your parents kind of pioneer stock Mormons or converts?

Tommy Johnson [00:03:45] Yes. So, yeah, pioneer stock Mormons. I only hesitate because my mom was adopted by, like, her adoptive family. Her dad was technically a convert, but looking into his own family history, found a lot of pioneer history there. They are from Idaho. My parents family or my mom's family, and my dad's family comes from Utah and Wyoming. So a lot of family history stories of great, great, great grandma, great, great grandpa came over to the Salt Lake Valley. That's kind of a lot of our family history is people coming over from Europe to join the Saints in Salt Lake. So that's okay. Yeah. So, yeah. And just a little bit about my parents as well. They met at BYU in the Wilkinson Center.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Do you know what year?

Tommy Johnson [00:04:49] 1980. 88.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] So your parents and I were at BYU at the same time. There you go. I got off my mission in 88.

Tommy Johnson [00:04:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] No, I got off my mission in 90, but I started to BYU in 87.

Tommy Johnson [00:05:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] So I'm. I'm probably the same age as your parents, basically, which makes me feel. What? Awesome. I feel awesome.

Tommy Johnson [00:05:09] Yeah.

Madison Johnson [00:05:09] There you go.

Tommy Johnson [00:05:10] Just great. But, yeah, so I actually. So we. And this is. This is a fun thing. So their first date was at the. The training table on December 3, 1988. And I know that because before the training table went out of business, and apparently they're coming back in some. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] They have the best fry sauce. I mean, Utah is known for its fry sauce. Do you like fry sauce, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:05:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Yeah. Training table had the best fry sauce.

Tommy Johnson [00:05:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] And they made cheese fries. So you dip the cheese fries in the. Is just life changing.

Tommy Johnson [00:05:45] Yeah, that's what the plan.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] You would order by a little telephone.

Tommy Johnson [00:05:47] A little phone at the table. So we would celebrate their first date. We called it their first anniversary. And we would go to training table as a family and just kind of celebrate their first Date is brought to

John Dehlin [00:06:01] you by Trading table. Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:06:02] Right. But, yeah, so, yeah, so they. So in terms of just kind of. Their kind of what I was born into was very much the plan of, like, you meet at byu, you get married, and you start having kids. And that's kind of what the product of. That's me and the product of that plan. So, yeah, so they.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:26] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:06:26] We were in Spanish Fork for about four years. Then we moved to Illinois. My dad got a job out there, and for me, so I was there from ages 4 to 10. So a lot of pretty crucial growing up stuff happened there.

Tommy Johnson [00:06:44] But for me, it was really eye opening to be in a place where I was the religious minority. In our little schools, the only members were my siblings and maybe one other family. I learned very quickly that being a Mormon was not the norm.

Tommy Johnson [00:07:07] And the idea of kind of being a peculiar people and kind of being. Yeah. Just not the crowd favorite was kind of my role a little bit. That's kind of my burden to bear. And then even just being in Illinois, you know, the historical relationship between Illinois and Mormonism, not the greatest in the Mormon light with, you know, Nauvoo and whatnot. And when. When we were living there, the Nauvoo Temple was being built and built. So that was a big deal for all the Illinois Saints. We went down to Nauvoo and saw President Hinckley speak. That was the first temple I ever set foot in was the Nauvoo Temple.

Tommy Johnson [00:07:55] Through the open house. Really cool as a kid, kind of felt, you know, castle like. And the Nauvoo Temple is. I mean, it's based off of the original one, which is an older pioneer, obviously, pre pioneer type temple. So just really neat. And in Nauvoo, they've got little sites where, you know, you make a candle, you make rope, you do all kind of this.

Madison Johnson [00:08:23] You turn butter.

Tommy Johnson [00:08:25] Well, I don't maybe.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Well, little glass.

Tommy Johnson [00:08:27] Yeah, yeah. All sorts of. That kind of stuff of like, this is what the pioneers did, or the Saints in Illinois did the Nauvoo pageant. And so though we were, you know, kind of a religious minority, where we lived in Peoria, Illinois, we would take trips down to Nauvoo, and it kind of felt like home a little bit. Like, okay, these are our people. And so there was still a connection there to the whole Mormon kind of like, okay, this is where we were. I remember my mom was a. Our Scout master. That was her calling or cub leader or something. And we went to the grave of whoever kind of the Governor who?

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Ford.

Tommy Johnson [00:09:12] I can't remember, but just not great vibes with the Mormons. And we just saw it.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] He's Thomas Ford.

Tommy Johnson [00:09:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Governor of Illinois when everything went bad.

Tommy Johnson [00:09:20] Okay. Yeah. And we went and we just kind of. We saw him and I. We didn't stomp on his grave or spit or anything, but we just kind of saw him and kind of like. All right, this is kind of. Because, of course, the cub group was. Or the Scout group was through the church, and so we're all LDs in this little group. Yeah. I'll have to ask her why we went. Maybe just to, I don't know, shake a fist or something. But we saw him and it was all just kind of experiencing our Mormonism through kind of the ties that were there in Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] Yeah. I just have to say, like, every major world religion has kind of its sacred sites. Like Islam has, you know, Mecca and Medina. You know, obviously, Judaism has Jerusalem and Nauvoo along with, like, Palmyra. Nauvoo, Illinois. Carthage, Illinois. Carthage, Illinois. Palmyra, New York, Kind of Independence, Missouri. Although we're kind of trying to hide that now a little bit. Like, these are some of the sacred sites along with Salt Lake. Right.

Tommy Johnson [00:10:18] For sure. Yeah. You bring up Carthage, too, because that's not obviously too far from Naboo. And we visited the jail a number of times and went into the different rooms and they play a little reenactment of the. Of just kind of tell the story. And there's.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] What story? For those who don't know.

Tommy Johnson [00:10:35] Oh, yeah. Of Joseph Smith's martyrdom and Hiram Smith's murder. Them. Or murder, you know, whatever word you want to use. But they died at that time. Most people believe, you know, whatever. But that. Yeah, that's the place known for Joseph and Hyrum's last moments and days.

Tommy Johnson [00:10:55] And so. Yeah. And. And they point out, like, this is the bullet. You know, a bullet hole came through here and. And they came up through here, and they were dressed up like this, and it's all. And you're in that room. Like, it was in this room where their last moments were. So as a kid, again, I'm. I don't know, five, six, seven, eight, nine years old.

Tommy Johnson [00:11:12] That's just wild stuff. To. To be in the room where the. The. The founding prophet was killed in was quite the experience. And so again, those ages there, I was baptized there in Illinois, and I don't remember a ton of my baptism day. I remember being very excited to be perfect for at least a minute or two coming out of the water. Like, okay, I've got. I've got at least. I gotta, like, try to be at least like 10 minutes perfect before. I don't know, maybe I think a mean thought or annoy my sister or something. I was very excited, looking forward to being perfect for a little bit of time.

Tommy Johnson [00:12:03] But, yeah, I mean, a pretty. I would say, growing up Mormon, it was pretty standard, run of the mill. Although we were in Illinois very kind of. I mean, we were Utah created Mormons. We were, you know, so we brought that out to Illinois with us.

Tommy Johnson [00:12:22] Family home evening every Monday. We were at church every Sunday. I remember on one Sunday, faking sick so I could watch my first NFL game because I was a big sports fan.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Bears?

Tommy Johnson [00:12:36] No. Well, it was just whatever was on tv. So I just. I remember it was a Colts game. I got to watch Peyton Manning. I was really excited. I stayed home. We had a dog at the time. And I remember just holding her, feeling very proud of myself, like, we did it. We're here, we're watching an NFL game. Um, and I didn't feel. I don't remember feeling bad about it, but that's just kind of the. That those were the steps that it took to watch an NFL game in my family's home was, you know, faking sick and making sure I turned the channel so you can hit, like, that last watch button to make sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:11] Wow. Covered your tracks.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:13] Well.

Tommy Johnson [00:13:13] Yeah, because I knew, like, because we were, you know, like a no tv, a no radio, no electronics on Sunday type of family, so I. I knew what I had to do to make it look like I didn't do anything. But. Yeah, pretty. Pretty traditional. I wouldn't say, like, anything overly crazy in terms of rules or whatever, but anything that was, you know, kind of said over the pulpit to us at that time, just kind of follow. And that was the expectation was to be a faithful Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] Okay. So pretty, like, not crazy orthodox, but. But an observant, devout Mormon family. Yeah, yeah. And total siblings in total.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:02] Yeah. So I. I have four siblings. There's five of us.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Okay. Biggest.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:05] Yeah, I'm the second of five. We. So my, My.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] The.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:11] The first three of us were born within three years of each other.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] Oh.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:17] And then my parents took a break for obvious reasons. And then the last two came along seven and ten years later.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:28] Oh, maybe a little seven and ten years after me. So.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:32] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:33] But, yeah, so six and nine years later. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] But, yeah, a bit of a gap.

Madison Johnson [00:14:37] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:38] We call them the Bigs and the littles. Growing up, like, the Bigs can stay up, but the Littles have to go to bed, that kind of thing. But yeah, there's five of us.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] When the, when the Littles get big, do they get tired of being referred to as the Littles?

Tommy Johnson [00:14:48] We haven't called them the Littles in a while. I might have to bring that up.

Madison Johnson [00:14:53] They do still call their little brother a Little, but he's like 17.

Tommy Johnson [00:14:57] Yeah, he's a senior, but he's the only one.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [00:15:00] Yeah, so got it.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] Yeah. Okay. So do you remember going to church as a kid and how you felt the church and.

Tommy Johnson [00:15:07] Yeah, so I remember going to church. We, My dad was a bishop out in Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Bishop's son.

Tommy Johnson [00:15:16] Yeah. And so we had the missionaries over often. Always loved that as a kid. They were cool in my eye and a lot of them were from out here and that. And my, so my grandparents were still out here.

Tommy Johnson [00:15:35] One set in Idaho, one set in Utah. And so we would come out here and visit and I thought Utah was just pretty cool. I mean, that's where my grandparents were and it was a place that we vacationed often to come see them. And so just to have people in our home that were from there, that was pretty neat to me as a kid. But yeah, going to church, I only remember positive feelings.

Tommy Johnson [00:15:59] And also I definitely. So I have one memory of growing up in our neighborhood. There's this kind of this long street that we lived on and we were friends with a girl up the street. And at one point she mentioned that she went to a church. And I don't remember what church, but I remember letting her know that it was the wrong church, whatever church she was at, and that we were the true church. And I remember my mom pulling me aside saying that, saying that wasn't very kind. And I remember being a little confused, being like, well, that's what I learn every Sunday, is that we're the one true church and that we should be kind of letting people know about it.

Tommy Johnson [00:16:42] But so I kind of, I took her, her words to be like, don't do it like that, be nicer about it. Because I was straight up, kind of like, okay, that's cool, but like, you're doing it wrong was kind of the message. I just, I trying to save souls, you know, I was just doing my best.

Tommy Johnson [00:17:00] And again, I was 8, 9 years old or whatever, so, But I mean, because I was baptized a member, so, you know, got to go, you know, from day one, kind of bring people in. But yeah, so I, I, I, I only have positive memories, really. From church, going there.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Any favorite primary songs? I have to ask that question.

Tommy Johnson [00:17:23] Yeah, a Child's Prayer is always a favorite. Honestly, I just really liked all of the singing time. Just that was my favorite part of Sunday was being able to sing, so. But a Child's Prayer sticks out.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] All right. Okay. All right. So once you start moving into your adolescent years. Yeah. Talk about kind of middle school, high school, and anything that's kind of interesting for your Mormon story.

Moving to Utah and Deep Mormon Commitment

Tommy Johnson [00:17:55] Okay. So When I was 10, we moved back to Utah and that's where my family's been ever since. And I remember. So I, we came back when I was in the fifth grade and on the first day of fifth grade I'm in, I'm in Cedar Hills, Utah, just the middle of Utah Valley. But I don't understand that as a 10 year old. And I go to class the first day of school and my teacher is just telling us about herself and she mentions that she graduated from byu. And in my head I was like, oh my goodness, she might be a Mormon just like me.

Tommy Johnson [00:18:30] Because all I had ever known was being the only Mormon in my class. And so she told us about herself and she opened up discussion for any questions and I gathered all the courage in my little 10 year old body and rose my hand and I asked her, are you Mormon? And she said, she kind of laughed and she said yes.

Tommy Johnson [00:18:53] And everyone else kind of laughed too. And I realized I think we're all Mormon. And that was the best news for me as a 10 year old for a couple of reasons. One, maybe I'm off the hook now for missionary opportunities because I didn't go so well the first time. But also I just felt like, oh, now everyone will know what I'm doing. What? I know this is great. And I just, I, I was excited about it.

Tommy Johnson [00:19:19] And so growing up, you know, through middle school and high school, just did all the normal boy stuff, meaning church stuff, meaning 12 year old. 12 years old, become a deacon in the Aaronic priesthood. 14, become a teacher. 16, become a priest. All the stuff.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Boy Scouts.

Tommy Johnson [00:19:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] Eagle Scout by the time you were

Tommy Johnson [00:19:47] like the day before. I was 18.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Oh, okay. So. So we weren't a bit of an underachiever. I'm kidding.

Tommy Johnson [00:19:53] Yeah, no, I was. I slipped right in there.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] I never got my Eagle, so I'm the end.

Tommy Johnson [00:19:56] Well, well, there's some people, right, that, you know, the rule is a family rule of like before you can get a driver's license or whatever it might be. I'm very grateful I wasn't you know, my type of situation or I wouldn't have been able to drive probably until the day before I was 18.

Tommy Johnson [00:20:13] But yeah, so yeah, all, you know, scouting did that. And when I was a, I just started my Senior year was 2012. Was that, you know, August, September and Then October Conference 2012 was when the mission age changed.

Tommy Johnson [00:20:32] And so that was a huge deal because I was right. I was about to turn 18 and graduate high school. And I remember hearing that and feeling very confident that something in my head was like, you're going at 18.

Tommy Johnson [00:20:53] And I took that as the spirit being like, this is your plan. And I was like, okay. And President Monson was Thomas S. Monson was a prophet at the time and I'd always had a connection with him. I really liked him. But also we share a name on purpose.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Tommy's.

Tommy Johnson [00:21:11] I was named after him. Oh yeah. So that was premeditated twinning. And so yeah, I always really liked him. And so just, just hearing it from him and it was just all kind of this kind of perfect storm of like this is awesome, like this is cool. The hasting of the work of salvation. I get to be a part of it. And also in a practical sense, my older brother at the time was in college and he, we, we had just planned, we were all just going to serve, you know, missions and we were going to overlap each other and wouldn't see each other for four years.

Tommy Johnson [00:21:52] But now with the age change it was just going to be three years. So I was like practically excited and spiritually excited. It was all just good news. And so one thing I want to add in here because it'll, it'll play a role in, in the larger Mormon story. My Mormon story.

Family Culture and No Empty Chairs

Tommy Johnson [00:22:13] Family is just a big deal for my family. We're all very close and at some point we, we spent a family home evening and this was back in Illinois. We spent a family home evening. It may have been a direction of a church leader or something or may have just been my parents idea, I don't know. But we created a family motto that we would end up reciting after every family prayer for the rest of my forever just being a. In our family.

Tommy Johnson [00:22:43] And we took the last or the letters of our last name and just made a little motto. So our last name is Johnson. So start off with J. Joyful, obedient, honest, not afraid to try. Service on the same team. No empty chairs. Was the last one.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Service on the same team. Yeah, no empty chairs. I'm writing these down.

Tommy Johnson [00:23:06] Okay. And we would repeat that after every Every family prayer. And it felt a little bit like a little huddle, like say team on three. One, two, three, team, break. Or whatever. That was the vibe of it was like, this is our family, these are our family values, these are our family goals. And 1, 2, 3, break. And it was just repeated and recited.

Madison Johnson [00:23:31] And

Tommy Johnson [00:23:33] for me that it just instilled in me like the value of family.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:23:43] But also in there. And I just want to break this down. So I feel like most of those are pretty self explanatory, but the last one, no empty chairs.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:23:52] So no empty chairs is a saying I'm sure a lot of Mormons are familiar with. The idea is in the celestial kingdom. So the highest degree of heaven that a Mormon can. Can achieve, you have to do certain things to get there. You have to just basically be a faithful Mormon, follow the commandments, live up to your covenants, participate in ordinances and whatnot. And the only. And the teaching as well is the only way that a family can be forever is if you're in the celestial kingdom, if there's stragglers and a lower heaven that just kind of stinks for everyone. And so the idea is no empty chairs for us.

Tommy Johnson [00:24:42] There are seven people in our family, so we just thought of figurative seven chairs in a circle in the celestial kingdom. We don't want a single empty one. So our family goal is to be faithful Mormons, basically to just kind of trim it down.

Tommy Johnson [00:25:00] That's what the goal was, was to be faithful members of the church so we can be a family forever. We don't want a single missing chair. We don't want, you know, Claire gone. That's my sister. We don't want this. Oh, where's Claire? You know, there's six out of seven. We want all the chairs full.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Because in Mormonism families can be together forever if they all follow the devout Mormon path.

Tommy Johnson [00:25:25] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] Otherwise it's six family members in the celestial kingdom with one in the terrestrial. The terrestrial kingdom. And they can't hang out with you guys. I guess in Mormonism, technically you can go visit that person. You can go down and visit them for a little while, but there must be some sort of time limit and then you got to go back and then they're left without their family.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] In heaven forever. For eternity, Right? Yeah, yeah. It's kind of an intense teaching.

Tommy Johnson [00:25:53] Very much. Very intense.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] I mean, I imagine as a kid you're like, this is going to be great. We're all going to be in the sleeve together.

Tommy Johnson [00:25:59] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] What's wrong with that.

Tommy Johnson [00:26:00] Yeah. Because you know my perspective was we, we figured it out like we'll be one of the few families that will

John Dehlin [00:26:08] be forever narrow the way.

Tommy Johnson [00:26:10] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] And we find it.

Tommy Johnson [00:26:11] Yeah. We have the fullness of the truth.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:26:14] And so we were very blessed to know about this whole no empty chairs kind of plan. And so, and so that just kind of mantra, that whole, that family motto made family just super important to me. And so. Yeah. So going back to October 2012, the Mission Age changed and I had no.

Tommy's Mission and Pre-Mission Struggles

Tommy Johnson [00:26:39] Serving a mission for me was a no brainer. There was no, there was, there was nothing that wasn't going to stop me from going now. It was just kind of when 18 or 19 and I felt pretty quickly like okay, I'm going to go at 18.

Tommy Johnson [00:26:56] And so I was in the first group of like high school graduates that went out on a mission. I got my mission call when I was still 17 years old, which is crazy to me. I'm like that's a child.

Tommy Johnson [00:27:10] But I was so excited. And I never said this in a prayer because I felt like this would be sacrilegious. But I very much in my head was like there are like five scenarios where I think I will serve a happy mission, like five locations and all the rest. I think I will not do a good job because of just fears that I have.

Tommy Johnson [00:27:34] And so for me I was like, I want to be. These are some selfish things. I said I want to go foreign because that's cool, but I want to speak English because that's easy. And so for me I had, it was either Canada, England, Australia or like South Africa. Those were like it from what I understood at the time.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Not New Zealand, not.

Tommy Johnson [00:27:58] Yeah, see there's, I didn't even understand

Madison Johnson [00:28:01] about New Zealand geographical knowledge.

Tommy Johnson [00:28:03] Yeah. And so for me those were like that's all that's available for me. And then again I didn't pray and ask for that because I would be like bad to be like I will go where you want me to go. Asterisks as long as there's five. Exactly four or five. But very much in my heart I was like these are the only places because I didn't want to learn a language because I just thought I would be bad at it. And I didn't want to go anywhere too tropical because again, limited understanding. I was like there's probably big bugs and like limited showering and stuff and so gross. Yeah. And, and yes, that was again that's my 17 year old self being like if I'm going to Go somewhere for two years. I have some, yeah, some thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] We're all dying to know where you got called.

Tommy Johnson [00:28:48] Yeah, Canada. Went to Canada. Yeah, it worked out. So I went to Mission Winnipeg.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [00:28:56] So it's for all the Canada buffs out there. All of Saskatchewan and all of Manitoba and parts of Ontario.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Is that kind of like Siberia? Like super cold tundra like places or not?

Tommy Johnson [00:29:08] Yes, but the coldest and like most unbearable places. People, we weren't there. We were close to the border, the U.S. canada border. But I mean it got down to like minus 40. Yeah, it was really cold.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] And then although I remember Chicago Getting to minus 30 when I lived there.

Tommy Johnson [00:29:25] So.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Yeah, it probably weather wise. Oh, I guess. I don't know how much you would have remembered Chicago as a kid.

Tommy Johnson [00:29:31] So I, I, I did feel a little prepared of like, okay, there's just some days where it's impossible to be warm. Yeah, that's just not an option.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:29:44] And so I, yeah, I got my mission call and I left to the MTC a week and a half after I graduated in high school.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Oh, wow.

Tommy Johnson [00:29:56] Which for me I just thought was awesome. I was like, let's just get this ball rolling. And serving a mission for me was there are a lot of good parts for it, like going on a mission. One, I didn't want to spread the gospel. I felt like I had personal experiences with the atonement of Jesus Christ and I wanted to share that happiness with other people. I felt like I had had legitimate experiences and I was excited about that also. I'm just innately, I'm a big kind of like legacy person. So the fact that my dad had served, his dad had served, my brother was currently serving.

Tommy Johnson [00:30:32] I was just super excited to be another Elder Johnson. The line of Elder Johnson's, that's just a big deal to me for whatever reason. So I was excited to, to, to be in the mtc. I was there just for two weeks because I was speaking English and then, yeah, flew up to Canada.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Let me ask, I want to pause before you tell your mission story and jump back to Madison, but before we do, like, I always like to know whether kind of in your high school years you like had this moment where it's like, okay, I know that I'm Mormon, probably in part because my parents are Mormon, but we've got the saying within Mormonism, you can't live on borrowed light. Which means at some point you can't rely on the testimony of your parents and your family. You got to gain your own testimony.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] Go to Seminary and all that stuff. You would have gone to seminary as a part of your high school experience. And then at some point, like, I heard about Moroni's promise in the Book of Mormon and wanting to pray to know for myself if the church was true. That's just a setup kind of to tee up the formation of your testimony and its status by the time you're going on a mission.

Tommy Johnson [00:31:42] Yeah, it's a good question and I am going to answer it. And I didn't. Coming in, I wasn't sure if I was going to share this part of my story. In this moment. I feel like I want to, so I'm going to.

Tommy Johnson [00:31:56] So, yes, I did have that experience. And it came out of a personal, what I would call like a legitimate struggle with pornography use. I'll tell this story because I think it is kind of funny of how it all kind of started this. It went back to Illinois. I was in the fourth grade.

Tommy Johnson [00:32:18] We're having some sort of school or class party or something. I'm in the circle of kids. This kid tells us of a website where there are inappropriate images online. My first thought is, there's no way that's illegal. That is literally against the law that that would even be allowed.

Tommy Johnson [00:32:38] And so when I got home, I searched for that website and he was right. It was not against the law. But I felt absolutely horrible. And in context, I was either 9 or 10 years old, so just pretty freshly baptized. And that was where my first thought went. First time I saw anything inappropriate, I was like, I've screwed this up, wrecked your baptism. I'm done. Yeah. And again, I'm 10 years old and I think I've ruined no empty chairs already. Oh.

Tommy Johnson [00:33:11] And it. It hit me hard. And to. To summarize, I didn't tell anyone about any of my experiences with pornography from that time to when I was 17 years old. So for like seven years, in some really important, just human development years, I think I'm a pretty bad guy because of what I've done.

Tommy Johnson [00:33:42] And I felt pretty. I felt responsible for again being the empty chair, because for what I understood everyone else in my family was living up to their promise to every. To us every time we repeated that mantra. But I secretly kind of hated it because I was like, no empty chairs except for me. Like, in my head, I would think stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] That's a heavy weight.

Tommy Johnson [00:34:06] Yeah, it was huge. And I, you know, it was. And I. And I internalized that because of, you know, stuff that I was learning. Excuse me, learning at church. You know about worthiness and the law of chastity and. And that whole time. So this is like 2005 to 2012. And so church leaders, especially at the top of the chain, like general conference and stuff, the language around like the Internet and digital stuff and Internet pornography and stuff was very just.

Tommy Johnson [00:34:46] I felt like it was someone who, you know, people that didn't really know the Internet, talking about the Internet and just kind of digital pornography. And so I remember again, I wasn't planning on talking about it, so I didn't bring the exact quote, but I remember listening to a John, by the way, talk where he referenced President Hinckley. And there was a quote that in summary was like, who.

Tommy Johnson [00:35:13] What it was talking to the young men. Is that like a priesthood session? And he was saying, like, young men, think about these young women that you're eventually going to like court and date and marry. Who among them would want to date someone who's looked at pornography? So just don't even look at it. That was kind of the messaging I was getting was don't even start because once you start, all hell breaks loose and you can't even stop it. And I was entering this already had starting. So I was hearing these messaging, like these messages like, oh, wow, I've already failed.

Tommy Johnson [00:35:49] Like, I've, like, there's no redemption. They're telling me not to start. I've already started. It's, it's. I can't go back. So, you know, it's kind of. I've already failed that.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:04] How did you go from that first? Because the first time it sounds like it wasn't your fault at all. You're just, you didn't even think it was going to happen. And then you felt a lot of guilt that. What, what made you go back the second time? Was it like that belief that you were already done for?

Tommy Johnson [00:36:17] I think honestly it was more just like childhood curiosity. Just, just. I was going through probably early moments of puberty and just was caught those feelings of like, oh, you know, what's this? And just kind of going after that. I do also feel like there was a definite, like I'm, you know, I've already ruined it, so what's the point of trying to not do it? Because the black marks already there. Like, I've already, the, the crimson has already infected the sheep's white clothes or whatever. Like it's already done. And it was so confusing as a kid because I would hear of this all powerful Jesus that would wash away all of your sins while also.

Tommy Johnson [00:37:10] So that's like a lot of first hour stuff, like sacrament meeting, stuff of like, Jesus, well, you know. But then in these breakoff classes in second and third hour of like, we'll never view pornography because once you do, it's there. So I'm like, okay, well then what the heck? Jesus is like almost all powerful. It's just the whole porn thing, he didn't figure that out. Like missed that atonement moment? I don't know. And I don't mean to speak ill, but just as a kid I was so confused, especially the older I got, because there are more and more. When I was a young man or whatever, it seemed like there's a lot of pornography lessons and I hated those because again, the messaging was either you're already too late.

Tommy Johnson [00:37:53] Yeah, it's already too late. Or every once in a while we would watch the Ted Bundy video and I'm gonna be a serial killer one day. So my two options, once in a while, the Ted Bundy video.

Church Teachings on Pornography and Shame

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Wait, what is the Ted Bundy video that you're watching in church?

Tommy Johnson [00:38:07] I should explain. So there was. Honestly, I don't even know if it's church produced or whatever. But they're.

Madison Johnson [00:38:12] It's not, it's just, it's an interview.

Tommy Johnson [00:38:15] Yeah. Just there's a little snippet that shared and I don't know if it was pulled or whatever, but there's a trend. And I've talked to other people and they've seen the same video in church settings. So I know it's not a one off thing, but in Ted Bundy's like final interview or one of his final interviews, he talks about how all the bad guys that he's with in prison, it all started, all their evil doing started by viewing pornography. And it got worse, worse and worse, and now they're killing people.

Tommy Johnson [00:38:43] And that was shown in the spirit of don't watch porn because you might become Ted Bundy. And I thought that was my lot in life was either to become Ted Bundy or, or do enough good to like steer myself away from the.

Tommy Johnson [00:39:04] That's. That's already going to happen. But like, do my best to not become Ted Bundy. Like those were the two options, was either become Ted Bundy or like live my whole life trying not to become Ted Bundy. And that was because. And here's the thing too, my mindset was I want to be the best person I can be, which I understood at that time was to be the best Mormon I could be. And so I felt like I always had A scarlet letter that was blind. Like, no one else saw it, only I saw it and God saw it, was like.

Tommy Johnson [00:39:36] But I, I just wanted to do good. And so I, I internalized all this shame because I was like, oh, I just can't overcome this thing. Like the, the, it's just too much. That was the messaging I was getting was, this is too much. So I, I kept this in from ages 10 to 17 through middle school, high school. And it was right after the age change, because I still hadn't said anything, that I was like, okay, I've got like this one thing that if this could be, like, cleared up, then, then I can go on a mission. Because that's what I was very concerned about was like, worthiness for a mission because I had already gone to the temple in my mind unworthy and felt horrible about it.

Tommy Johnson [00:40:23] I did not like going to the temple because I felt like I was lying and kind of cheating the whole system. And so to answer the question of what was this kind of big experience, I finally opened up to my mom about it. I told her everything. I just told everyone here and everyone watching, I guess, and what I thought for sure was going to be just like, how could you? You are so gross. You're the worst. Do, do, do. I was met with just the kindest response from my mom, excuse me.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] And

Tommy Johnson [00:41:11] I was blown away because I was, I convinced myself for seven years, like for most of my life, for like almost half my life, that I could just like, was a conscious being that this was going to be a horrible experience telling my parents. And it was the complete opposite. So then my dad came home from work, I told him, and from again, just where we were at, it was like, okay, next steps is to tell the bishop.

Tommy Johnson [00:41:40] And so my dad came with me, it was the following Sunday, and I told my bishop. And from everything that I remember from that initial meeting, it was one of the best days of my life. Because that burden and that weight and that big secret was no longer any of those things.

Tommy Johnson [00:42:06] And from what I wanted to believe that Jesus could cover even pornography. I didn't think that was possible. And in that moment, I felt like it was possible. And so for me, I felt like that was a very personal experience with the atonement of Jesus Christ. That's what I was participating in, was confessing sins to the proper people, which included the bishop.

Tommy Johnson [00:42:37] And for the first time in a very long time, I felt guilt free. And so I wanted to go share to the world that you don't have to feel Bad about anything. You can tell Jesus and he can cleanse you of your sins.

Tommy Johnson [00:42:54] And that's what really motivated me to go and what made me excited to go on a mission was I felt like I had to really a powerful experience from what I, at that time considered a pornography addiction. So I was like, this can rid you of addiction, this message of Jesus Christ and the gospel.

Tommy Johnson [00:43:16] And so, yeah, it was my senior year. Finally felt what I considered the full effects of Jesus sacrifice. And I was so excited to go and tell people that again. I was happy to be speaking English because I was like, I want to be able to tell this in my own words and just everything I kind of understand.

Tommy Johnson [00:43:39] Yeah. So that was my kind of real big, like, this is my testimony. This is so real. It all felt so real to me because I kind of had this truncated. What I kind of saw as a truncated experience in the church. This is the true Jesus. All those lessons about, like, the Ted Bundy thing or whatever, this trumps all that for me in that moment was like, no, that was just this limited thing. This is really it. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling good. Jesus saves all, covers all the sins. Here we go. Let's go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] So I'm dying. I. I want to dig into and explore what happened to you overall, but I don't want to get us out of the rhythm of the story. So I'm going to come back at the end to talk about the Ted Bundy. The. I mean, in effect. I've never thought about this, Samantha. We always talk about, you know, the church has this object lesson about chewed gum or licked cupcake where they'll, you know. Did you ever see that metaphor?

Tommy Johnson [00:44:35] I heard about.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] See the object lesson.

Tommy Johnson [00:44:36] I heard about young women receiving those.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Okay, yeah, yeah. Where the young, you know, they'll pass around a cupcake that's licked and say if you break the law of chastity, you're like, a lick cupcake or chew a piece of gum and pass it around. And it's like, that's what happens if you have sex. You become a chewed piece of gum. I've thought about that in terms of, like, sexual purity, but I never thought that a. A Mormon kid could apply that to themselves in the pornography context. So that's. You just kind of drew some connections for me that I. Because their porn didn't exist when I was growing up. Really. I mean, I'm a little bit too old. So is that. Was that obvious? The. The porn, chewed gum connection? Was that obvious?

Samantha Shelley [00:45:19] Well, yeah, I was thinking as he was talking like it, it seems like the licked cupcake, chewed gum thing is maybe more specific to young women, but I, I guess I hadn't really thought before about how regularly young men get talked to about pornography. They don't really talk to you about pornography that much as a young woman, at least not in my experience.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Yeah, so that was, that was a new, new insight for you too.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:41] Yeah. Also this kind of a side note, but me and Tanner have been reading a Jack Whand book on our Patreon called Adam, which is, you know, the movie Charlie. There's a follow up book about her son. And that book reading that has just been so wild, seeing how the church like creates pornography as a problem because like it sounds like, because it's normal for 10 year olds to be curious and that, but then it's just, it's intense hearing how there's immediately that shame cycle that begins and the church is like creating the problem, selling the solution.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:12] It does just seem like pornography with young men is like a big tool for control because it, the church kind of does set young men up to have pornography problems a lot of the time. And maybe it's not actually an addiction, even though, you know, who's to say? But it, it definitely, that shame cycle feels like it's quite ubiquitous for a lot of.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Yeah. And that's the discussion I want to come back to at the end. So, so it's queued up and ready for that. Let me just ask you though, as you look back on your pre mission adolescence and all that guilt and shame you fought, thought or felt.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] I'm, I'm. Sometimes I just feel like that's an unquestioning, unquestionable bad that youth ever feel guilt and shame. But then I also sometimes wonder whether having some sort of standard or some sort of like I need to do better maybe just helps you feel like you, you want to be a better person. So I'm just wondering, as you look back on all that guilt and shame pre mission, do you think of that as being like fundamentally damaging to you or as like actually because it resolved. Well, it kind of kept me on the straight and narrow. I'm wondering how you conceive of that guilt and shame now because you carried a lot as a kid, right?

Tommy Johnson [00:47:26] Yeah, I would say it was more fundamentally damaging.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [00:47:31] It's still, honestly, it still plays a role in my, in my just ways of thinking and I'm in therapy right now to help resolve a lot of that. And I've been in therapy for, for a bit trying to resolve that. So I get what you're saying about, you know, having standards and, you know, kind of having rules to guide yourself and if you break them to feel kind of like, oh, man, I need to do better or whatever, but it was, it was way too much.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [00:48:04] Because I felt, because it was, oh, I've done this one thing, I'm going to hell. It was like A to B. It wasn't like, all right, tomorrow I'll try better and I'll just forget about it. I was like, that's it. Like, I've ruined everything.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Yeah. When you combine no empty chairs, comprehensive family pressure of not one empty chair with the ubiquity of porn, and then you add to that the chewed gum and then the Ted Bundy, which, when

Samantha Shelley [00:48:32] you think about like, that's licked cupcake chewed gum, it's getting you to associate sexuality with repulsion or like disgust. Like, that's the line that's being drawn there. That's why they do those object lessons

John Dehlin [00:48:44] and mass murder and murder. So you're associating basically sexuality with perversion and murder.

Tommy Johnson [00:48:52] Well, yeah. And. And also, I mean, there was. And I feel like it's a little bit less now, but especially when I was in young men's, there was very much an emphasis on if we don't list sins, but if we were going to denying the Holy Ghost, very bad, murder is number two. And then immorality is three. And pornography use in those lessons was taught in that context. So that's. I think maybe that's why there was a connection with the Ted. But let's show this Ted Bundy tape, this awful serial killer, second and third hour of church. Just watch out. He was Mormon, technically. So maybe I don't know what the connection was. I don't. I don't know. But it messed me up.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] I really was like, actually, Ted Bundy was baptized Mormon.

Tommy Johnson [00:49:43] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:43] But wasn't there a Christian guy? So I can't remember the exact position. Position. But they say that Ted Bundy was saying that as kind of a last ditch attempt to appeal to the Christian guy who was probably.

Tommy Johnson [00:49:53] Yeah, yeah, there. Yeah, there. I've. I've read that too, to try to make sense of everything. But. But yeah, there was a. There was. I would leave Sundays being like, okay, I can't look at it again or I'll just be back on the Ted Bundy trail. Like, that's where it'll lead and. Because all I knew was porn is bad. And it equals this and this and this. One of those things could be Ted Bundy. And so, and just being. And you know, and maybe Ted Bundy isn't well known everywhere, but being in Utah, I. I understood who Ted Bundy was and how horrific his stuff was. It's all pretty local. A lot of his crimes and so. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] Okay. I'm so sorry that happened. Yeah. That's hard stuff.

Tommy Johnson [00:50:41] And I, I do think that, you know, my, my local leaders were just trying to be like, hey, this stuff isn't great.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:50:51] It just was a horrible execution of that idea. And, and again too, I was. The, the fact that as a kid, I was confused that the. This all encompassing atonement that could wash something that was crimson into pure white purity had an asterisk on it. When I was a missionary and then when I came home and, you know, just had other teaching roles, that was my main emphasis in every lesson was like, this message of Jesus is like, for everything. Like, because I wasn't necessarily taught that. So clearly that was my, like, first thing was just like, this Jesus guy, all of it. And because I didn't want anyone, because my, my main thing was I don't want anyone to feel like this, especially children, but anyone. I don't want anyone to think, like, I'm too far gone or whatever, because I felt that way for so long. So

John Dehlin [00:51:52] thank you for sharing. I mean, that's not, that's not super easy to share. Both because it was hard for you, but also because it's very personal. So thank you. Anything else you want to share about? Just your mission before we switch. Switch over to Madison. Was it a good mission? Did you enjoy it?

Tommy's Mission to Canada

Tommy Johnson [00:52:08] Yeah, I think it could be. Yeah. We don't have to spend a lot of time on. On it. I loved it. It was great. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Did you. Did you have any, like, super faith affirming experiences or, like, super faith challenging experiences on your mission?

Tommy Johnson [00:52:26] Nothing faith challenging, but some pretty strong faith affirming. And those are, those were some experiences that I held on to until. For a very long time.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:52:37] And most of them were through giving priesthood blessings. Just having an opportunity to be like, all right, I'm just opening up my mind to kind of see what comes in here and just say those words. Giving blessings. One particular experience, a woman asked for a blessing to heal a fake tooth that she had for a long time. And she had recently gone to the dentist. And they're like, all right, we need to take out this tooth, replace it. It's Going to cost a lot of money. She called us over and asked, can you give me a blessing that'll just heal, Heal so I won't have to pay this money?

Tommy Johnson [00:53:19] And I was so scared because I'm, like, 19, 20 years old, 18. And I'm like, okay. I am. You know, she's asking me to, like, wipe away science, basically. Like, this dent, this dentist is saying it needs to be taken out. She's asking me to reverse that. So in my head, I said, I'm not going to do that because I. I don't want to be liable. And so while giving this blessing, I. In my head, I felt what I considered promptings of, like, tell her it'll heal. And I, like, deflected that, like, two or three times, because, again, I was like, I'm not touching this.

Tommy Johnson [00:53:55] It was a very generic blessing up to that point. Like, God loves you and you are awesome. And I was just, like, fighting this off until I finally said, like, I bless that your teeth will be healed and you won't have to get it replaced.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] You went there?

Tommy Johnson [00:54:09] I did, because I just felt it was so strong. I just said it. And she stood up. She was crying. This is a miracle. This. We leave. I'm, like, dying inside. I'm like, oh, my goodness. She calls us, like, a week later, it had healed and everything was fine. Everything had followed what she wanted. And what I felt like was God playing some sort of role in all this. So I was like, oh, well, that was crazy for me. That was like. That was true. Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, it followed, like, right at the priesthood. What I just did was truly in the name of the priesthood that Joseph Smith restored.

Tommy Johnson [00:54:47] Boom, boom, boom. It all dominoes down to the church. Is true. So that just reaffirmed it all, and by quite a bit, too, because I was like, that was not me. I didn't want to do it. I was the opposite.

Tommy Johnson [00:55:00] So, yeah, that was. That's one. And there were a couple. That was, like, the strongest one on my mission, where I was like, all right there. I already knew it was true, but that just sealed the deal. Sealed, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:12] Okay. Do you love the Canadian people?

Tommy Johnson [00:55:14] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [00:55:16] Yeah, And I will. And I just want to give a quick shout out, too. We did dip a little bit into Minnesota in our mission, so I did cross the border, serve there, too. So Lake Wobegon, basically, it was called International Falls. It's like, the fourth coldest place in the United States. It's very. It's called the icebox of the nation. That's their self given nickname.

Madison Johnson [00:55:37] Goodness.

Tommy Johnson [00:55:38] But yeah. So I just want to give a quick shout out to the Minnesotans as well.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] And do you watch Letter Kinney? Did you ever watch? No. Okay. That's like, I guess that's like some type of comedy show that features Canadians. But no.

Tommy Johnson [00:55:51] Okay, well, now we will.

Madison's Mormon Childhood and Family

John Dehlin [00:55:53] All right. Okay. So should we switch to Madison?

Tommy Johnson [00:55:58] Let's do. Yeah. I say yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] Yeah.

Madison Johnson [00:56:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Madison, you've been super patient.

Madison Johnson [00:56:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:04] For 56 minutes.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Wow. Well, Madison, where does your. Tell us where your Mormon story begins.

Madison Johnson [00:56:12] Okay. I was basically born into a faith crisis. My entire life has been a faith crisis. So my parents met in high school and they got pregnant with me in high school their senior year. And my mom is the second youngest of eight children.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Now. Is this in Utah?

Madison Johnson [00:56:36] Yes, in Woods Cross, Bountiful, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Oh, wait, a Mormon teen pregnancy.

Madison Johnson [00:56:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:42] Bountiful, Utah.

Madison Johnson [00:56:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] What year around.

Madison Johnson [00:56:45] It was 1997.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Okay.

Madison Johnson [00:56:48] So yeah, a lot of it was scandalous and so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] Who your parents? Middle class, Upper middle class. Like, like, were they of status or were they kind of like.

Madison Johnson [00:57:02] Definitely not. My dad grew up super poor.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Okay.

Madison Johnson [00:57:08] My mom's family was a little bit more well off than my dad's family, but it wasn't like they didn't have money by any means. But yeah. So they got pregnant with me in

John Dehlin [00:57:19] high school, senior year.

Madison Johnson [00:57:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Okay. Do you know what high school it was?

Madison Johnson [00:57:23] Woods Cross.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] Okay.

Madison Johnson [00:57:24] Yeah. But my mom is the youngest of eight or the second youngest of eight siblings or seven siblings. I don't know. She has a lot of siblings. And I am the only grandchild born out of one wedlock. Like, it was a big deal. My grandparents were very Mormon and both. Okay, both sides. And my, both of my parents have really big families. My dad's the oldest and so it was. It was a very big deal that my mom was pregnant. Had a shotgun wedding before I was born. Was born January of 98.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Which meant your dad didn't get to serve a mission.

Madison Johnson [00:58:05] Nope. Dad didn't serve a mission. That was a big no. No. Especially because he was the oldest and so he's the one who's supposed to be setting the example. All this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] So this is major shame parade stuff.

Madison Johnson [00:58:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] Right.

Madison Johnson [00:58:19] And me being the product of that, my parents were being, you know, shamed and all this other stuff. Me being the product of that, I couldn't separate the fact that I didn't make this mistake. I'm just the product of this mistake. I don't want to call it A mistake because it's you, it's me. And also, I don't think that it was a mistake. But I couldn't separate what people were saying about my parents as like, oh, they shouldn't have gotten pregnant. They should have waited until they were married. They should have gotten married in the temple, and your dad should have gone on a mission. I couldn't separate that from not being my fault.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:55] And so would you hear them say that? Would they say it to you?

Madison Johnson [00:58:58] Yeah, Adults. Yeah, like my grandparents. And it was just a lot of like, you are the product of a bad decision, therefore you're bad. And it was always centered around church because it was like, your parents should have gotten married in the temple, your parents should have gone on missions, they shouldn't have gotten pregnant in high school, all this stuff. So I just like, started out with like, not a good Mormon family, if that makes any sense. But so we didn't go to church a lot for the first maybe like until I was like 5, but we did all the, like, stereo. Like, I got my baby blessing. We just like, weren't going to church. We weren't like that perfect Mormon family in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] Can I just say, like that shame parade. We. How many Mormon stories have we done where it's like, okay, where'd you go on your mission? Okay, what was your temple marriage like? Okay, what was it like going through the temple? And then you just add to it that everybody knows that. That your parents had sex in. In both of their wards and the grandparents and the siblings and everybody. It would make sense that they would basically check out of the church for five years because they couldn't do any of those things. And literally everyone who mattered knew.

Madison Johnson [01:00:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:22] And it's the sin next to murder. So like it sounds, so. It probably sounds so trivial to just normal person. Oh, high school pregnancy, baby out of wedlock. But this is like Mormon catastrophe of shame catastrophe. Like, your story was horrific, Tommy, and this is like 50 times worse. Am I wrong or am I right?

Madison Johnson [01:00:45] I think they're over exaggerating. I think they're different kinds of bad. I think that it definitely.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] But I mean, I'm just saying, I'm just trying to paint a picture for what it must have been like.

Madison Johnson [01:00:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] For your parents and why they would just stop going to church for five years in Utah.

Madison Johnson [01:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] Right.

Madison Johnson [01:01:00] So, yeah, not only did they get pregnant in high school, but they weren't allowed to go get sealed in the temple because after you. I don't know if this was a rule but if you don't get married in the temple, which they didn't, they just had a civil ceremony, then you had to wait a year. I think that rule has changed since. In, like, the past three or four years.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] I didn't know that.

Madison Johnson [01:01:22] But, yeah, so they weren't allowed to attend the temple. And so we ended up getting sealed after my sister was born. But, yeah, my parents ended up getting married, and I have two other siblings. But the start of my life was just like, you're not a good Mormon. You are the product of sin, essentially. And, yeah, so that is kind of how I started off. And then I grew up in Utah, which. That just adds another layer. And everyone could tell that, like, my parents were super young, even for Utah. Like, Utah has young parents. But my parents were 18 and 19 when they had me. And so I would be in, like, elementary school, and they'd be like, why do your parents look so young? And I would be like, because they had me in high school. So it just. It was like the thing that followed me around everywhere.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] And you would tell people, you would hide it.

Madison Johnson [01:02:18] I wouldn't try to hide it. I don't think I ever tried to hide it. Just because I didn't. Like, I knew that it wasn't okay, but I. Like, my parents never told me, like, oh, this is a bad thing that we did. It was always other people. And so they weren't ashamed of it. And so I wasn't ashamed to tell other people, even though I knew I was the product of sin.

Madison Johnson [01:02:43] But, yeah, so I grew up in Utah. Like, super, super sheltered Utah. Once we started going back to church, it was like a 180. Like, we were put on that face of a perfect Mormon family. And if we did something wrong, that was the end of the world kind of thing.

Madison Johnson [01:03:05] And I just remember, like, we were so Mormon to the point where there was a new girl that moved into our neighborhood, and I was hanging out with her. We were becoming friends, and I'm like, in third grade, and I found out that she wasn't Mormon. And I run home. I was playing at her house. I run home with tears in my eyes.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:25] I'm.

Madison Johnson [01:03:25] I asked my mom, like, I can't be friends with her anymore, can I? Because she's not Mormon. And my mom hesitated, and she was like, I don't know. Like, I'll have to meet her parents. But like any other Mormon kids, I didn't. My parents didn't care. So, yeah, we. Like, my circle was very limited. I only talked to Mormons I don't think I saw a person of color living in Syracuse, Utah. Like, it was very, very sheltered. And then we moved to Virginia when I was 11 and that was like my entire world view just like exploded. The first day that we moved there, I. Haymarket, Gainesville area.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:04:12] Yeah. The first day that we were there, I was playing with a girl that lived next door to us and I asked her if she was Mormon and she said yes. I was like, oh great, we can be friends because you're Mormon. And later on I was like, hey, I haven't seen you at church, but you told me that you were Mormon. And she was like, yeah, that's my mom's maiden name. So she thought she didn't know what Mormon was. And so I was just like, there were probably five or six LDS kids in my school. And that's kind of when I kind of the same situation of Tommy is in, like, Mormonism isn't the only worldview that you can have.

Madison Johnson [01:05:02] Or like, we were definitely in the minority, which changed a lot of things for my life. I started becoming really rebellious and I did not want to go to church. I hated church. And then we only lived in Virginia for two years. And then we moved to Idaho, which back in the Mormon belt, whatever they call it, even maybe more so than Utah because I lived in Eagle, Idaho. And it's just like everyone and their dog is Mormon.

Madison Johnson [01:05:39] And that's kind of when things in my family started to like, crumble. So since I we started going back to church when I was five or six, we were putting on this face of like being a perfect Mormon family. We were doing all the things that we were supposed to be doing, doing family scripture study, all this other stuff. And then when we moved to Idaho, there were some things going on with my parents marriage and that we're not like kosher with the church.

Madison Johnson [01:06:13] And I won't get into it because I don't know how much they would appreciate me sharing. But that's kind of when I started realizing, like, oh yeah, my family isn't a good Mormon family. Like, we have all these things going on under the surface, like a lot of tension. And I was also viewing pornography, which you don't get those lessons in young women's. You get the, this is a boy's problem, not a girl's problem.

Madison's Parents' Divorce and Its Impact

Madison Johnson [01:06:45] And so I didn't think anything was wrong with it until we had a lesson about it. And I was like, devastated. I thought that I was terrible person. All this pretty. A lot of the same Feelings that Tommy had.

Madison Johnson [01:06:59] But, yeah, that's kind of when I realized, like, oh, my family is not perfect. Like, we've never been perfect. There was a lot of shame around just my being born and then pornography and then things that were going on with my parents. Like.

Madison Johnson [01:07:16] Like there were threats of divorce, and that's, like, not okay for Mormons. You try to stick together as much as you can. And then.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] Can I say that what I know about teen pregnancies. Definitely in Mormonism, and I'm guessing this isn't a uniquely Mormon problem, is it? Just because two kids have sex in high school doesn't mean they should be married.

Madison Johnson [01:07:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] And have lots of kids.

Madison Johnson [01:07:41] 100%.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] And so. But, But. But if in a conservative culture, that's what you do.

Madison Johnson [01:07:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Then it puts two people together super young before they know themselves.

Madison Johnson [01:07:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] And each other. And then they've already got a kid. They haven't got an education yet.

Madison Johnson [01:07:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] It's. I mean, Samantha, you're shaking your head. You agreeing that it's just.

Madison Johnson [01:08:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:03] Well, I just. I mean, you. It's hard to individuate within what in Mormonism is supposed to be, like, a codependent dynamic like that that you, like. You immediately have to fit your relationship into this. You immediately have to step into these roles that you're not grown up enough to. You know, it's just hard. It's hard to, like, find healthy adult autonomy within a marriage. Like, it's easier to do it before.

Madison Johnson [01:08:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] And what I'm slightly surprised about, based on what I know about Mormon culture, when there's a unwed teen pregnancy, is it okay to call it that? Like, is. Is. My understanding is. Historically, in the Mormon Church, they pressure the young woman to give the child up to adoption so that LDS Family Services, the Mormon Adoption Agency, can place that baby with, quote, a good family, a worthy family, and give the woman a young chance to kind of have her adolescence and early adulthood. But it. So do you know if your parents were.

Madison Johnson [01:09:07] My mom was never pressured to put me up for adoption. However, she was pressured to get an abortion.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] What?

Madison Johnson [01:09:13] And I found that out, like, in my teen years, and that wrecked me. My mom never thought about it once. She was like, absolutely not. But I guess she was pressured by a bishop and a few family members to get an abortion, which is very surprising.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] But never heard of a Mormon bishop encouraging a woman to get an abortion in 97.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:35] Because I've heard that, like, the American Christian right didn't used to be as anti abortion. Like, it's been like a political tool that has evolved, but 90s feels like

John Dehlin [01:09:43] it would have been like, yeah, that's. That's almost unheard of in my experience, but who knows what happens?

Madison Johnson [01:09:49] I think what happened is said family member was really good friends with the bishop, and the family member wanted my mom to get an abortion. And so they talked to him and were like, hey, we want. This is what we want. And we know that, like, it's not something that you would normally do, but this is the first time this has ever happened in our family. And I am not the oldest grandchild. Like, there are tons of grandkids before me, but they're all. Their parents are both married, and they were all born the right way. And so I think it was just like, we can't deal with this. And they didn't want to send my mom away to, like, I've heard of people, like, being sent to Washington to give birth and, like, then you come back and you're not. But my mom was still in high school.

John Dehlin [01:10:29] No one's told. So, like, yeah, they would send a Mormon girl who's pregnant away to, like, the. Grandma's in Ohio.

Madison Johnson [01:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] Not tell anyone. She just, like, did a study abroad, as far as everyone knows, and then comes back without a kid and the kid got adopted. But that's not what.

Madison Johnson [01:10:43] No, that was not the case. My mom's just never talked about if she was pressured to give me up for adoption, but. And my mom also didn't tell me that she was pressured to get an abortion. I read her journal, so that's on me. Sorry, Mom. I think she knows this by now, so if she listens to this, it won't be a surprise. But, yeah, abortion was talked about and, yeah, that caused a lot of. My parents don't want me, even though I grew up in a very loving home. And my parents have never said that. I just couldn't separate the two between. Oh, this person in my mom's family said that I. That she should get an abortion. That must mean that they don't like me and yada, yada, yada. So.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] And the whole reason I got us down this track was just to say that that's a really hard way to start.

Madison Johnson [01:11:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] Marriage and a family. So it doesn't surprise me that your parents.

Madison Johnson [01:11:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] Were struggling by the time you're. What age?

Madison Johnson [01:11:42] I think I was 14 the first time they talked about divorce, which, looking back, is surprising that they lasted so long. They ended up having two more kids, my brother and my sister. And, yeah, I. And I mean they were married for 22, 23 years.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] Yeah, miraculous achievement really.

Madison Johnson [01:12:03] And. But yeah, their marriage just was not set up for success. They probably honestly did not want to get married in the first place. They were boyfriend and girlfriend in high school and like, I don't want to speak for them, but I just, yeah, they did not have the tools to succeed in their marriage.

Madison Johnson [01:12:22] And so we, they ended up not getting divorced, but we ended up moving to the Netherlands for my dad's job my junior and senior year of high school. And that I really dug down into the church. I was doing early morning seminary. There were surprisingly a lot of LDS people there. At my school of 98 graduate, my 98 person graduating class, there were like five or six kids that were LDS. So we all did early morning seminary together. And I was just like, this is the true church. I am happy here. Even though, like, if I would have looked deep into myself and like, took some time to actually think about it, I don't think I would have had that same reaction.

Madison Johnson [01:13:10] But I was able to become friends with a lot of people who experience different cultures, were a part of different religions, and that really opened up my worldview because this whole time I was living in Utah and Idaho and it just like your worldview is just so small.

Madison Johnson [01:13:30] And I think later down the road that really changed things for me because I was able to see like, oh, these people are happy even though they're not a part of the Mormon Church. Even though this whole time I've been told the Mormon Church is the true and only way to true happiness. But yeah, then I ended up moving.

John Dehlin [01:13:51] Yeah, I, I mentioned this frequently, but Mark Twain has this quote that travel is fatal to prejudice.

Madison Johnson [01:13:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] And that is one of the most common, let's just say top 10 things that cause people to lose their faith. In Mormonism, it's meeting happy, which sounds weird.

Madison Johnson [01:14:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] But it can be a, it can be a shelf breaker.

Madison Johnson [01:14:11] Yeah, it totally can be. And I think that, I think you can either go one of two ways. Either you double down like I did, or you go the complete opposite way and you're like, oh, well, these people can be happy. That means I can probably be happy outside the church as well.

Madison Johnson [01:14:27] But yeah, I really dug down. Graduated seminary, early morning seminary at 6 o' clock in the morning in riding my bike to seminary at a member's house in the dark. And yeah, we were going to church the whole time. My dad was the ward mission leader, so we had missionaries in and out of our house. All the time.

Madison Johnson [01:14:49] And, yeah, we were. My parents were still having marital issues, but they were not acting like it, especially at church. And I think another thing that really showed me that Mormonism is not the only place that you can be happy is that my parents were not happy, and they were very Mormon.

Madison Johnson [01:15:10] And. Yeah. So living in the Netherlands, ended up moving back to Utah for college, and my parents end up getting divorced. And that crushed me. Even though, like, I knew that my parents did not necessarily have a happy marriage, it still was like, there's again, that shame of, like, perfect Mormon family.

Madison Johnson [01:15:34] And now your parents are getting divorced and they were wanting to cancel their temple ceiling as well. And that's kind of when my shelf started to break a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Tell. Tell people. Because that happened to me. Tell people what that's like when you believe you're in an eternal family. Kind of the no empty chairs thing.

Madison Johnson [01:15:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] And now all of a sudden, not only your parents getting divorced, but they want to get their ceiling canceled. What goes through a Mormon kid's mind when all that happens?

Madison Johnson [01:16:05] I was terrified.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] And tell people why, though.

Madison Johnson [01:16:08] So I just. When. Yeah, so when you get married, you make these covenants that you're going to be together forever. And even, like, not just forever, for eternity, like forever and ever. And if you break those, then you're no longer eligible to be in the highest degree of heaven. And, yeah, it was just terrifying because you hear all these stories of, like, people, like, leaving the church after they get divorced. And that's kind of the track that my mom was on. And, yeah, I was. I was terrified because I wasn't going to be able to be with my family in heaven.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] It's kind of the opposite of no empty chairs. It's all empty chairs.

Madison Johnson [01:16:50] All empty chairs.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] It means that your parents and all their kids are not going to be together in heaven. Now, that's a weird thing, because let's just say you're all in the terrestrial kingdom. You're all together. You should be all together. Right. But somehow in Mormonism, you're. You're. God's going to like, okay, you're the same kingdom, but you can't live in the same house.

Madison Johnson [01:17:06] Like, you're.

John Dehlin [01:17:07] Yeah, but it was all empty chairs because you all had failed.

Madison Johnson [01:17:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] That's a weird flip of what you were experiencing, Tom.

Madison Johnson [01:17:13] And it wasn't anything I did. And so I was getting punished for.

John Dehlin [01:17:18] You can't go to the social kingdom.

Madison Johnson [01:17:19] No.

John Dehlin [01:17:19] Unless you marry again.

Madison Johnson [01:17:20] Unless I was going to get married. Yes. Which I was still planning on getting married. But I was.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] But you wouldn't be.

Madison Johnson [01:17:25] I was 18. I was going to call, like, I wasn't going to be with my mom and dad.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] Right.

Madison Johnson [01:17:29] Or my brother and sister. I was going to be with my husband.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] Yeah.

Madison Johnson [01:17:32] Whoever that was.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] Wrong.

Madison Johnson [01:17:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] But now you weren't going to be able to be with your mom and dad and your siblings.

Madison Johnson [01:17:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Weird, hard.

Madison Johnson [01:17:38] And there. Yeah. And there was also a threat of my dad getting excommunicated because there was some infidelity in their marriage. And so there was that. And then my parents canceling their temple ceiling, me not being able to go to the highest degree of heaven. And just like all these things piled on at once. And I was going to college the next week.

Madison Johnson [01:18:04] So I was just like a wreck. And my. Yeah, my entire family. My family was broken is what I felt like. And I wasn't able to be there for my siblings who were having a really hard time with it because I had to go to college. Like, that was just something in my family. Like, you go to college, there's no, you can't not go to college.

Madison Johnson [01:18:29] And so I ended up going to Utah State. And yes, go Aggies. I love them. But I. Yeah, I was in a YSA ward and it was just not a good time because I was hearing all of these stories about eternal families and getting married in the temple. And at this time, I was not worthy to go in the temple because of pornography issues.

Madison Johnson [01:19:01] And so I couldn't go to the temple on my own. I. My family wasn't going to be together in heaven. Like, all these things were just piling up on me and I. Yeah, I just wasn't having a good time. It was a bad time.

Madison's Experiences with Guilt and the Bishop

John Dehlin [01:19:15] Did you ever talk to a bishop about pornography?

Madison Johnson [01:19:20] I did. So.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] And you don't have to share this. Oh, no, I totally want to share.

Madison Johnson [01:19:26] Yeah, I totally will. I am just wanting to be careful because it might be a little bit triggering. But my pornography view viewing came as a result of sexual assault. Like when I was very, very young, I was forced to watch pornography and it became what I thought was an addiction with my limited knowledge of what addiction was. From the time I was 6 until I was 18 and I told nobody about it until I went and talked to my YSA bishop and luckily he was fantastic. I had one of my roommates come with me because I was terrified. And I just like, yeah, so there were all of these things that were just one on top of the other. Like, you know, when it rains, it pours kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:20:12] You were feeling super guilty that you're looking at pornography.

Madison Johnson [01:20:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] You wanted to repent.

Madison Johnson [01:20:16] Yeah. And. Yeah. And then I was feeling guilty about my parents getting divorced, even though I knew that it wasn't my fault. I was getting penalized for my parents not being married.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] And I just wonder also. And I don't want to project this.

Madison Johnson [01:20:34] No, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] But if you were born out of wedlock and then the marriage was hard because it got off to a hard start, even though you didn't choose to be born out of wedlock.

Madison Johnson [01:20:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:44] I would wonder whether as a kid you still might feel somehow.

Madison Johnson [01:20:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] Responsible.

Madison Johnson [01:20:50] I felt a ton of guilt for it, and not only because of things that other family members were saying, but because my mom had guilt about it and she never projected that onto me on purpose. But, you know, kids pick things up. And so I felt guilty. And so, yeah, just my entire childhood, and even up until probably I was like 20, I just was ridden with guilt for multiple things. My parents breaking the law of chastity and me being born, my pornography viewage, and then my parents getting divorced. Like, there were just. And I thought that my parents. Divorce was my fault because they got married because of me.

Madison Johnson [01:21:31] So therefore they got divorced because of me. Which therapy is great. Everyone go to therapy. Working through that. But yeah, so that is just. I felt so guilty. And then. So, yeah, I did go and talk to a bishop about all of these things, and that was a really good experience for me. Luckily. I know that a lot of people have really bad experiences with their bishops, but that was the first time I had ever talked to a bishop. And luckily it was a good experience.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] Let's celebrate it. So how did the bishop. For all the Mormon bishops that watch Mormon stories and all the future Mormon bishops, here's how to handle this situation. Well, what did he do?

Madison Johnson [01:22:14] He basically just said that it was okay and that I. That it wasn't my fault. And that. Which I didn't believe him at first because even though at the start of me viewing pornography was not my fault because I was forced into it, the rest of the times I thought that that was my fault because I continue to go back and.

Madison Johnson [01:22:38] But he made it very clear, like, it's not your fault. You don't need to be ashamed of it. Here are some tools and resources to help you stop if that's what you want to do. He was encouraging me to stop, which was something I wanted to do. I didn't want to be pornography anymore.

Madison Johnson [01:22:52] And yeah, he was just. He Was very, very kind about it. He did not try to shame me about it. He did not go on this rampage about how pornography is bad or, you know, it. Like, the lessons that Tommy got in young men's. Like, it was not like that at all. I had a very good experience, which.

Madison Johnson [01:23:12] If it was a bad experience, I don't know what would have happened. Like, I probably would have left the church when I was 18. But, yeah, it ended up being a really great experience, and I left it feeling very good and kind of re. Energized in my membership of the church.

Madison Johnson [01:23:30] So I kept going to church for. I mean, every week I was in a YSA ward. I was in leadership positions and relief society, all that. All of my friends went to church, all my roommates. I somehow ended up in a room of eight girls my freshman year. All of them were LDs, which we were the only one, like, the only room that all of us were lds. So we were like the golden room to our bishop, which. So we just had. We planned a lot of activities. We were all in leadership positions.

Madison Johnson [01:24:04] I was constantly surrounded by Mormonism. And then I. My dad got married, remarried, and they were getting sealed in the temple, and I wanted to go, so I decided to do my endowment. I didn't go on a mission, so they're really. I wasn't about to get married, so there really wasn't any reason I should, you know, not.

Madison Johnson [01:24:32] Not that I shouldn't have gotten in my endowment, but there wasn't like a. I need to get my endowment for this. So I'm, you know, like a mission or getting married. And that is when things took a little bit of a turn. So I went through the temple, and I left feeling horrible.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] Okay, really quickly, you haven't met Tommy yet?

Madison Johnson [01:24:54] No, no, no, I have not met Tommy.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] So you're a student at Utah State University, not going on a mission.

Madison Johnson [01:24:59] Nope.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Which means for most young men and women, they wouldn't be going through the temple, because most Mormons, when they go through the temple, the first. For the first time, do it either to go on a mission or to get married. So it's kind of a sign of you trying to be extra righteous that you would. You would want to do that absent a mission in marriage.

Madison Johnson [01:25:19] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] So you choose to go to the temple. Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:25:22] Yeah. So I wasn't. I hadn't met Tommy. I hadn't met anyone that I was, like, potentially going to get married to. Like, there was no reason for me to go through the temple except for that I wanted to Go and witness my dad's ceiling. And so, yeah, I went through. My mom couldn't go through the temple with me, which was honestly really heartbreaking for me at the time. So I ended up having a friend go with me because I just. Yeah, I didn't have anybody else to go with me because my siblings are younger and my mom couldn't go. And I. Yeah, I went through the temple, had a panic attack. It was. Huh.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] Just. Was it because of the content?

Madison Johnson [01:26:08] Yeah, I just. I was so confused. I was uncomfortable. I.

Madison's Temple Experience and Discomfort

John Dehlin [01:26:12] Are you comfortable sharing what made you uncomfortable?

Madison Johnson [01:26:16] I think so. I went through the temple, like, two or three weeks before they changed that women have to veil their face during the prayer. That made me super uncomfortable because the men didn't have to do it.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] And it bothered you?

Madison Johnson [01:26:31] Yeah. And at this point, I. I was not a femin feminist growing up, but at this point, I was kind of learning more about it and becoming more. Just becoming more of a feminist. And so that made me extremely uncomfortable. And I think that was the first time that I felt like it was a little bit cultish. And there were just things that I like, just the secretive nature of it. And. Yeah, I just. It was just so uncomfortable. The everything about it, like, I. I could just list everything that happened in the temple I was uncomfortable with. There wasn't one specific thing. It was just everything.

John Dehlin [01:27:17] Movie?

Madison Johnson [01:27:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] The signs, the tokens, all that.

Madison Johnson [01:27:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:21] Okay. And washings and anointings.

Madison Johnson [01:27:23] Yeah, it just. Everything.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] And was your. Was your. Was it sewn up on the side?

Madison Johnson [01:27:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:27:29] It was sewn up.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:27:30] Yeah. Yeah. Nobody touched me, which I was. And the. I think what made me the most angry about it was that I had asked people, hey, what's going to go on in the temple? Because I was scared. I worked at a place where everyone had been endowed. They'd all gone on missions. So I was asking my co workers, like, what can I expect? And they were all making jokes, making me even more scared. Like, you know, you just read stories. My boss told me that you had to sacrifice a goat, which, like, I was like, you obviously don't have to do that, but why are you telling me that?

Madison Johnson [01:28:08] Like, does something similar happen? Do you have to, like, act like you're sacrificing a goat? I don't know. So I was terrified. And I went into the temple. Obviously none of those things happened that they were joking about and telling me, but I just was uncomfortable, and it did not bring me a feeling of peace like everyone said it would. And so I leave the temple and I'm like in tears. And I, I remember my dad saying, you just have to keep going to get used to it. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, I don't want to keep going. I don't want to go to the temple ever again.

Madison Johnson [01:28:53] And he was like, well it, it's just a little bit weird, I know that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, I don't want to go again. Like, I don't want to have to get used to it. I want it to be a good experience now. And it wasn't, it was a bad experience.

Madison Johnson [01:29:09] And yeah, so I was extremely upset about that. And then my parent, my dad and stepmom ended up not even getting sealed when they were supposed to get sealed. So I didn't even have to do my endowment then.

John Dehlin [01:29:21] And then you're stuck with wearing garments.

Madison Johnson [01:29:23] Yes. And garments are so uncomfortable. Let me just say that that's a whole nother issue. But yeah, I just, it just wasn't a good experience for me. And I, I went into it hoping that it was like, I thought that it was going to be a life changing experience. I was going to feel so much peace and so much happiness and closer to my savior. And I just didn't. And it was such a letdown. And like, and I didn't just leave having a bad experience. I left terrified, like crying, bawling, hyperventilating. Like it was not a good experience at all. I don't know how to like describe it. Besides, not a good experience.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] Like found old temple ceremonies on YouTube.

Madison Johnson [01:30:08] I had, oh, you had? When I was probably like 8 or 9 and it scared me and so I turned it off.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:30:14] Because you know, you're told, don't look up anti Mormon literature, don't look up, whatever, don't Google anything is essentially what I was told growing up. And so yeah, I, I had looked it up and it, it was scary to me, so I didn't look. And you also, I just felt silly too in the outfits that you're supposed to wear. I felt I was embarrassed. And when you go to your endowment for the first time, they ask you before you do the, before you make promises and covenants if you would like to leave.

Madison Johnson [01:30:48] And I had looked at my dad and I was like, I kind of want, like, I'm not comfortable, I want to leave. And he was like, it's fine, just stick, stick with it. And I felt pressured because my grandma who had Alzheimer's had come to my endowment and it was like a big ordeal for her to come, and I had tons of family there, tons of friends, and so I was like, if I leave, all these people are going to be like, what are you doing? Like, we're here for you. Why are you not. You know? And so I felt pressured to stay. And I think if I was there with just my parents, I would have left because I just. Because you get the anointing done before you go into the. I don't even remember what room it

John Dehlin [01:31:29] is, but that part. There's that part where they say, if any of you want to leave now of your own free will and choice, you can do so before you know what.

Madison Johnson [01:31:37] Yeah. Before you know what's about to happen. And I thought that I was making. Well, I was making promises with God, and that was a really special thing to me, and it just ended up not being special, and it was really disappointing and scary. So.

John Dehlin [01:31:51] Sorry.

Madison Johnson [01:31:52] Yeah. That's kind of when things started to go downhill for me, but, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:58] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:58] Yeah.

Madison's Life Before Meeting Tommy

John Dehlin [01:31:59] Anything else you want to share about your story before meeting Tommy?

Madison Johnson [01:32:04] I don't think so.

Tommy Johnson [01:32:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:06] So you.

Madison Johnson [01:32:07] You.

John Dehlin [01:32:07] What? You. What grade are you at USU when you kind of have this temple experience?

Madison Johnson [01:32:10] I was a sophomore, so I had actually transferred to uvu, So I had. I met Tommy October, November, five months after I got endowed.

John Dehlin [01:32:20] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:32:21] So it wasn't too long.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:22] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:32:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:23] So what made you decide to go to the wrong university? From. From Utah State? I'm joking.

Madison Johnson [01:32:31] I actually. I went through a really, really, really bad breakup that he broke up with me because God told him to, even though he was talking about getting married and, like, all this other stuff. He was talking to my roommate about buying an engagement ring and all this other stuff, and he ended up going home for Thanksgiving and ghosted me. And when he came back, I was like, what?

Tommy Johnson [01:32:59] Like.

Madison Johnson [01:32:59] And he was like, God told me I have to break up with you. I was like, okay. So I end up leaving Utah State because I was just, like, devastated. And I also was failing out of my classes because my parents were going through a divorce. And. Yeah. So it was just a mess. I ended up dropping out of college completely, so.

John Dehlin [01:33:18] Yeah, but do you believe that God told him not to marry you?

Madison Johnson [01:33:22] No, I think that he. I really listen to this.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:26] But I've got one of those breakups

Madison Johnson [01:33:28] as well, I think, every morning.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] Which end were you on?

Samantha Shelley [01:33:31] I think both. Well, no more. The. More getting broken up with. Yeah, but we've all. We've all introduced it into a breakup.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] God didn't feel like he was right for either of you.

Madison Johnson [01:33:40] Yeah, well. So here's the thing. God told me that we were gonna get married. So I was like, somebody's not telling the truth, and it's not me. So I was really. I was mad about it.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] Not because, like, why can't God communicate?

Tommy Johnson [01:33:54] Exactly.

Madison Johnson [01:33:55] And I was like, why is God telling me one thing, but you another thing? And he had. He had said something about that it's because he was a man and he had the priesthood, and so God would speak more clearly to him. I was like, cool.

John Dehlin [01:34:12] That was helpful.

Madison Johnson [01:34:13] Yeah. So, yeah, we ended up breaking up, and I was super upset about it, and so I moved back home with my parents and ended up going to. Well with my mom and then moved to Utah. Utah Valley University. Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:27] How long was that relationship?

Madison Johnson [01:34:30] Probably five or six months, which is not a long time for me to be devastated. But. But you're in Mormonism.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:37] Infatuation.

Tommy Johnson [01:34:38] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:38] Phase. Yeah. So brutal.

John Dehlin [01:34:41] Yeah.

Madison Johnson [01:34:42] It wasn't very nice.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Okay.

Madison Johnson [01:34:44] But I'm over it now. It's all good.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] And it sets you up to meet the man.

Madison Johnson [01:34:48] Exactly.

Tommy Johnson [01:34:51] Yeah. Thank you to that man. And thank you to God, too.

Madison Johnson [01:34:54] Yeah. God told her.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] God hooked you up.

Tommy Johnson [01:34:57] Yeah.

Madison Johnson [01:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] But why'd he tell her to marry the other guy?

Tommy Johnson [01:35:00] You know, polygamy.

Madison Johnson [01:35:02] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [01:35:02] Those details, we just forget about those.

Madison Johnson [01:35:04] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [01:35:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:06] All right, well, this was. I mean, anything else you want to tell about your story before we. So switch back to Tommy?

Samantha Shelley [01:35:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Well, I guess. Well, how long after your mission did it take before you met?

Tommy Johnson [01:35:18] Four years.

John Dehlin [01:35:19] Four years. Okay. All right, so let's switch back to Tommy. Had a great mission in Canada with the Canucks.

Tommy Johnson [01:35:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:26] Did you. Did you learn to say A? Like, did you come home saying A in a boot?

Tommy Johnson [01:35:32] Not. Not a boot, but a. Yes. Mostly honestly, a little forced because I knew that I would have friends coming home with French accents and Spanish. Oops, I forgot that English word type stuff. So I wanted something. So I did. I would, like, oops, I said A. Like, that slipped out. Oh, it's embarrassing. But that was just what I understood about, like, kind of the arm.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] You did that consciously?

Tommy Johnson [01:35:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] Oh, my God.

Tommy Johnson [01:36:00] Because I. I just. I knew that that would happen with my other friends, so I was like, you know, I'm gonna.

Madison Johnson [01:36:07] I want to be cool, too.

Tommy Johnson [01:36:08] So I just. I just understood. I think I under. Like, I thought I understood, like, the culture, and I just. I wanted to play a role. It's silly, but.

Tommy's Shelf Begins: Same-Sex Marriage and His Sister

John Dehlin [01:36:18] So anything interesting or important about your Mormon story from the end of your mission to meeting Madison?

Tommy Johnson [01:36:24] Yeah, a lot. So I can kind of Breeze through 2015. So when I got home to 2018, those years were filled with a lot of faith promoting activities. I was going to church, believed it all, active, faithful, all the things. And I do want to just add one quick anecdote as a part of all that. I just was looking for content to consume. So I remember pretty quickly after my mission because I am a big fan of podcasts. So I went to the podcast app, Apple Podcast, typed in Mormons, saw Mormon stories, and I was like, perfect stories about Mormons. And the first one I came across,

John Dehlin [01:37:14] that was not why I named it.

Tommy Johnson [01:37:15] No, and I know. And. And I.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] Okay, maybe it was a little bit

Tommy Johnson [01:37:19] worse and it worked. And the first episode I ever listened to, which I was excited at first and then mad like an hour or two in, was with Sam and Tanner, which was later that year, I believe, in 2015. So this is like. This is like short haired Tanner and married Sam. I don't. I'm sorry I brought that up. I don't know if that's a sensitive topic, but this is. This is like seven years ago now.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] So this was this episode for the listeners of viewers. It's called Losing Mormon Millennials. And Samantha makes fun of me because every time we talk about it, I say, number one, it's a legendary episode. Because this was right. This was recorded right when the church was starting to hemorrhage its millennials. But also it's the episode that Tyler Glenn from Neon Trees found that caused him to actually heal from a lot of trauma that he had experienced. But it's a legendary episode. We're gonna include it in the show notes.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:17] Are we? So did you think for the first hour that it was gonna be like faith promoting and how someone resolved their.

Tommy Johnson [01:38:24] Absolutely, yeah. I thought it was good job, John. I. I thought it was going to be about how to stop the losing of Mormon millennials. I was like. Because I. So I had known about Sam from her millennial Mormon days. As a missionary, that was a, like

John Dehlin [01:38:43] a Faithful Mormon blogger.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:46] 8 tips on dating from Jeffrey R. Holland. That was a smash hit, you know, and as a.

Tommy Johnson [01:38:52] So as a missionary, about, like, halfway through, we got permission to use Facebook as a pro sliding tool, which is a questionable decision, but I enjoyed it, you know, because, you know, back in those days, two times a year, you get to talk to your family. So any sort of outside anything was I welcomed. But I did see some millennial Mormon posts going through. So I saw Sam. So when I saw her on the episode, I was like, oh, awesome. Like, this is a fellow Mormon millennial. And here we go. And so my first ever. I just add that because from that moment I was turned off from Mormon stories. I was like, they got me. This is some Bush Lake stuff.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] Really quickly, was it that we misbehaved or was it just that the story didn't end like you wanted? Were we too sarcastic?

Tommy Johnson [01:39:47] No, I thought it just didn't end the way I thought it was going to. And I was like, that's not a Mormon story. That's an ex Mormon. Mormon story was my process. And again, I'm three months off the mission. I'm not entertaining entertaining any sort of, you know, that kind of content. So. So, yeah, bad first taste from Mormons stories.

John Dehlin [01:40:08] Sorry.

Tommy Johnson [01:40:09] No, you don't have to apologize. That just is how. How it went down. But yeah, so that's just a little anecdote from 2015 and 2018. That's where I was was faith promoting stuff. Yeah. And then the next big event in my personal Mormon story was October of 2018.

Tommy Johnson [01:40:33] I was on the bus with my. With one of my sisters. She's the one. She's. She's in the bigs, not the littles. So she. Her and I are 14 months apart. She's younger. Just so. Just so she knows. I don't know why I said that so strongly. She's younger. But yeah, so we're very close in age and we're just a lot of life stuff. We were close forever and we still are and probably forever will be.

Tommy Johnson [01:41:01] And she told me that she had her first kiss and I was like, oh, this is awesome. Congratulations. And then she said, and it was with a girl. And I was shocked. And we're also like on a public bus. She told me. So I'm like standing up, I'm like, oh, my goodness. This is like one of the craziest moments of my life. And here I am on the middle of the bus and I was just thrown by the idea that she wasn't straight because that was just the default. I was like. And yeah, and she made it clear that she, you know, had feelings for this, for this girl.

Tommy Johnson [01:41:47] They'd gone out on a couple of dates, and at that point she came out to me as bisexual and it was National Coming out Day. She. So she felt like it was apropos to tell me, and I was, we're going to an event. So we did that event. We came back and then when it was Just me. I got my apartment. I was like, oh, wow. Because for me, this potentially shook up the whole no empty chairs thing. That was where my first thought went, was, okay, how does this affect eternity? And just through kind of what I'm sharing, you can maybe get an idea of just.

Tommy Johnson [01:42:23] My thought processes are just like, all right, A to, like, capital capital B. Like, it was. It's just such, like, huge things, kind of catastrophizing stuff. But what I was faced with in that moment was I love my sister Grace, and the fact that she came out to me.

Tommy Johnson [01:42:48] I, like, I took an internal, like, kind of review of my feelings, and I was like, I don't feel, like, sad or any. Anything negative. Because I asked myself, how does this affect. Like, this affects no empty chairs.

Tommy Johnson [01:43:05] Pause. And then I was like, but I'm not. Like, I'm happy for. And that was like, there's conflict in there from that result. Because I was like, am I supposed to feel that she's, like, sitting. How am I. How am I supposed to react? Because I don't know if this. I'm reacting the right way.

Tommy Johnson [01:43:26] And so, um, for whatever reason, that kind of prompted a. Let me just kind of do a check on what I actually believe in terms of God, in terms of Jesus, in terms of Mormonism. Let me just do kind of, like an internal review of my beliefs. And so I imagined I was kind of pulling things off like a bookshelf of like, all right, this is what I believe in with God currently.

Tommy Johnson [01:43:53] And it's what I've always said. Do I actually believe this? I went through with everything, and at that time, basically, I came back and was like, yep, I believe that. I believe that. I believe that except for LGBTQ relationships as being bad or sinful or whatever, negative or. Yeah, I think sinful would be the most simple way that the church teaches them to be.

Tommy Johnson [01:44:19] Because I was. At this point, the church's language was, feelings are fine. Acting on those feelings are bad. And so I personally disagreed with that. And that was like, my first ever disagreement with anything a church leader had taught was that moment. Because I didn't. When my sister told me, I was like, if I really personally thought this was bad or sinful, then I would be feeling differently, but I don't. So what does this mean? Either I'm wrong or the church is wrong. And that was the first time I ever decided that even maybe the church is incorrect.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] I have to ask. This is going to go back a little bit in time, but in 2015, November 2015 the church would have announced its exclusion policy where it said that children of gay same sex married couples couldn't really be Mormon. And they declared same sex marriage as an act of apostasy worse than rape and murder. Do you remember when the exclusion policy was issued in 2015 and how each of you felt about it? And then do you remember in 2018 when it was rescinded and, and God said, never mind, I take that back.

Tommy Johnson [01:45:33] Yes, I'll go first.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:35] Yeah, that one.

Tommy Johnson [01:45:37] So when it came out, so yeah, so I came home in June of 2015. The policy comes out in November of 2015. I am still very faithful, like probably, you know, very, yeah, very, very faithful. And I adopted every kind of apologist opinion which was, you know, we're looking like they're looking out for the, the kids well being.

Tommy Johnson [01:46:01] And I didn't have, in context of the whole apostasy thing of like it being worse than the things that you just mentioned, I was like, well, of course it's bad because marriage is between a man and a woman. So that seems to be, you know, fair or whatever. I, but for, but for me the biggest thing was the kids, you know, couldn't be baptized. My idea was, oh, I mean that makes sense for the sake of the kids. If you had asked me, oh, why? Or any dug any deeper, I wouldn't have had anything to say. But I just kind of adopted that opinion. And then in the reversal of it, that was actually a big thing to me where I was like, so did they just.

Tommy Johnson [01:46:40] Was there like a, like a wire that was misplaced in the communication so they thought that they heard like do it and then like it took a while to. It was really, it threw me off. And that was another thing of like, there was a revelation claim here and a revelation in 2015 and a revelation claim in 2018. How can revelations be the exact opposite? And from. That was a big thing for me actually was like, this word is being used quite liberally. If two competing ideas are both from the same God, what the heck is going on?

Madison Johnson [01:47:20] Yeah, I kind of felt the same way. I was actually still in high school when the in, in 2015 and I don't think I knew anybody that was gay, more or less had children and were in a gay relationship. And so I kind of had the idea that it didn't affect me.

Madison Johnson [01:47:40] And I remember feeling a little bit upset about it, but not because they were, you know, like making policies that negatively affected gay people, but because why couldn't these kids get baptized and be A part of the true church and be happy. That's kind of where my anger came from.

Madison Johnson [01:48:06] And then, yeah, I had the same feelings about the reversal. I was like, I was very confused and kind of like, why would you put these people through all this heartbreak and pain and just these people who are trying to do their best, and now you're bringing up all that pain and heartbreak again. It made me angry and confused. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Okay. Okay. All right, so back to 2018.

Tommy Johnson [01:48:36] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:48:38] So your sister comes out to you and you decide you're gonna love her. Is that right?

Tommy Johnson [01:48:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] And maybe it doesn't feel wrong to you.

Tommy Johnson [01:48:47] Yeah, I. Because I saw in her reaction, like, true. Like, it was good news. It was happy. She was happy about it. And there was just something in her eyes that was like. I had my first kiss, and it was with this awesome girl that I met, and we've gone on a couple dates. We really mesh well, and I. You know, and. And just talking about sibling stuff, I had known that she had previously tried to go on dates with.

Tommy Johnson [01:49:17] With men, and they didn't turn out super well. And so this was a. A happy scenario. And so I was faced with, okay, am I going to just kind of. Do I really believe what I've always said? Because my. I. I have two uncles who were born and raised in the church, served missions, and then had left the church and then were openly gay and had partners.

Tommy Johnson [01:49:45] And I think it was just far away enough from my kind of just. Just my idea of. I don't know, the fact that it was. My sister was different. And I think I was able to think long. I was able to think love the sinner, hate the sin type of an idea, or like.

Tommy Johnson [01:50:14] Or whatever with some extended family, which I feel bad about now. That was just kind of where I was. But when it was my sister, it was just super close to home. This is my. You know, nearly. You know, we're just 12 or 14 months apart. We're very close, and she's happy. So what's going on? That's kind of what happened in my head.

Tommy Johnson [01:50:38] And so. So that. That was. Yeah, that was October of 2018. And then Madison and I meet in the most Mormon way possible times, too, because. So we meet in. Our first day is in February 2019. So four months later. But we meet.

Tommy Johnson [01:50:58] The story starts at a different time, depending on which one you ask, which one of us you ask. But we. We matched on the Mormon dating app, Mutual.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] Mutual.

Tommy Johnson [01:51:10] While we were also in the same Ysa Ward, young, single, adult, Ward in Provo. The fact that we were in the same ward, I did not know until after we had matched and talked a little bit. And then we swapped some social media handles and I was like, oh, we follow a lot of the same people. And she's like, oh, are you in the. And this. Are you in the 99th Ward?

Madison Johnson [01:51:30] I had to pretend like I didn't know because I didn't want to be creepy.

Tommy Johnson [01:51:34] Yeah. And I was like, yeah. She's like, oh, me too. That's crazy. But if you want to jump in quickly to share.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] Who did you both follow on social media? I'm just curious.

Madison Johnson [01:51:43] It's like, people in our ward.

Tommy Johnson [01:51:44] Yeah, there's people. So I was like, so how do you know this person? This person? And she's like, they're in my ward. And I was like, wait, so are we in the same word?

John Dehlin [01:51:52] That's pretty Mormon. Provo.

Madison Johnson [01:51:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:53] YSA Ward Mutual.

Tommy Johnson [01:51:56] Yeah, it was pretty Mormon. Yeah.

Madison Johnson [01:51:58] And to top it all off, our first date was at a comedy show at byu.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] Oh, I thought you say bowling alley or something.

Tommy Johnson [01:52:04] No, no featuring though.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] I'm old. That's what we did back then.

Tommy Johnson [01:52:08] Feet. The comedy show did feature Dan. Bam, bam. Daniel Spencer was there.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] His episode's premiering today.

Tommy Johnson [01:52:15] Oh, there you go.

John Dehlin [01:52:16] How in the world are the stars aligning?

Tommy Johnson [01:52:18] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:20] Hosted that one and brought it to us. So look at this. It. I think Secular Divine is blessing Mormons.

How Tommy and Madison Met and Fell in Love

Tommy Johnson [01:52:27] Look at that.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] Right now.

Madison Johnson [01:52:28] I would have to agree.

John Dehlin [01:52:29] Yeah. Okay.

Tommy Johnson [01:52:31] And so, yeah, so we.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] What was he like? What was Dan.

Tommy Johnson [01:52:36] Oh, just.

Madison Johnson [01:52:37] It was hilarious.

Tommy Johnson [01:52:38] Hilarious. And I mean, he. He told a bit where he went on a date with a girl and the girl thought he was also a girl. So, yes, he wanted a date with a lesbian while she also thought he was a lesbian. It's just a funny story. But, yeah, so it was a. Yeah, a BYU sponsored

Madison Johnson [01:53:01] Valentine's Day.

Tommy Johnson [01:53:02] Valentine's Day theme. So they all told, like, bad date stories. Yeah. And then we went and got ice cream and.

John Dehlin [01:53:09] Oh, my gosh.

Tommy Johnson [01:53:10] And you know, very typical. It was Mormon.

Madison Johnson [01:53:14] Ysa.

Tommy Johnson [01:53:14] There's a Hallmark slash LDS church collaboration. I think it would look just like our first first date.

John Dehlin [01:53:23] I love it.

Tommy Johnson [01:53:25] And so, yeah, so we. We started dating. And somewhere around this time as well, my family lives. I was in Provo. My family lives in Cedar hills, Utah, about 20 minutes away. So every Sunday I was up there for family dinner. We all were.

Tommy Johnson [01:53:49] And one of these Sundays, my mom wanted to pull each of us aside to tell us something, which was out of the ordinary, and she wanted to see each of us just one by one. And she told us that she had been going through a faith crisis.

Tommy Johnson [01:54:13] And when she was telling us, this is near a point of her own faith crisis where she was either unsure or disbelieving most Mormon teachings. And this was quite a shock to me, But I think if I could have planned it, I don't think I could have planned it any better because I had kind of started my own little faith crisis of asking questions. And so when she tell you kind

John Dehlin [01:54:46] of what led to it and what it was about or should keep all the details from you?

Tommy Johnson [01:54:51] No. So she shared it all. She. What really kind of kicked it off was hearing a story about polygamy, hearing someone specifically bear testimony about how awesome polygamy was and kind of is. And it. She was like, I don't think that at all. Started kind of digging into the history of polygamy, and that led to another thing and another thing. And so, yeah, it was more like church history, polygamy stuff that led to a deeper is God even there? Kind of place is where she got to eventually.

John Dehlin [01:55:32] Okay, what was that like for you?

Tommy Johnson [01:55:34] So, yeah, it was very surprising to me, but for whatever reason, just that I think there was a shift when my sister came out to me where it wasn't as much of a catastrophe, where it wasn't like when I had viewed pornography that one time. All of a sudden, no empty chairs is ruined. When she told me about her faith crisis, I was like, okay, that's where she is. And I didn't have any thoughts in my head as far as I can remember. Like, I hope she, like, resolves it all and can see the truth or whatever. Because I was in a place of questioning, too.

Tommy Johnson [01:56:12] So honestly, for, you know, in some respects, I was like, oh, thank goodness there's someone else. There's. There's some discord where I can say to someone, I don't know if I really believe this. And that person will say, yeah, me neither, or at least be understanding. And that person also happens to be my mom, which is, you know, a great place because I know of too many horror stories of you go and you share that information that your testimony is not super, super strong with your parents, and that's a really bad result.

Tommy Johnson [01:56:45] So this was kind of flipped where she shared it with us. And honestly. And she shared with us that she was scared to tell us, but none of us came out with, oh, no, this is the end kind of thoughts, as far as I know, we did discuss our siblings. Like, so what was that like about? Like, that was wild. But none of us were like, at least to each other. Like, man, let's hope she figures it out and comes around.

Tommy Johnson [01:57:11] We openly supported her of trying to figure out life and kind of where she stood with stuff. But for me, it did kind of open up some permission kind of subconsciously of like, okay, I'm allowed to question and doubt and not be so sure, and it's okay because it was acceptable in my family. I felt confident that I could kind of go that route of just asking questions and not, not know everything.

John Dehlin [01:57:38] Yeah, totally. Okay. All right, so that's, I, I don't know. It's rare and Mormon stories to have someone in their faith crisis sort of journey to, to have them tell that part that their parent kind of comes out before them. And I'm really happy for you that that idea that you said, thank goodness makes total sense. Just take so much pressure off. But then also, then no empty chairs. So did you, do you remember, like, hey, mom, what about no empty chairs? Like, maybe that came later? I, I, that's just what comes to my mind.

Tommy Johnson [01:58:14] Yeah, yeah, that'll come up later. But I think for me, the biggest thing I kind of, I viewed more of like that Grace that kind of started it off and not, not to be like, Grace ruined it or anything, but just kind of put it into question of like, what does this all mean? Like, what does. Because, you know, no empty chairs for us for so long was like, faithful Mormonism. This is the right way. This is the best way to live. When I saw my sister be so happy about living in a non Mormon way, even if it was just the slightest, because even her at the time, she was still trying to go to church too.

Tommy Johnson [01:58:53] So on her own, she's on her own journey. But there was this, it was just this pure joy that she was so happy about this experience of connecting with someone that, you know, there was, the no empty chairs thing was starting to soften. Its foundation was a little crumbly.

Tommy Johnson [01:59:12] So, yeah, there wasn't a whole big shock with, with my mom being like, okay, mom, what does this mean now you've ruined it or whatever. There's already some movement. So, so Madison and I meet and we start dating. And you can feel free to jump in and correct me at any time.

Madison Johnson [01:59:33] You're good.

Tommy Johnson [01:59:34] But there was a pretty clear expectation and plan to, to date and, or when, when we first exchanged I love yous. And that turned into an engagement. The end goal was to a temple marriage that was without question the, the plan.

Madison Johnson [01:59:54] I don't even think it was something that was like discussed. I think it was just. We both are Mormon. We, you know, that's what you do. You get married in the temple. And it was always an expectation for me. Like, I had never even gone on a date with someone who wasn't lds. But yeah, we. I don't even think we really had a conversation about it. I think we were like, okay, so what temple are we going to get married in? Kind of conversation.

Tommy Johnson [02:00:24] But yeah, yeah. And we had, we had shared with each other are more. I don't know if nuance is the right word at that time, but just kind of differing beliefs because again, my sister had come out and I was supportive of that and so was Madison. She was like, oh, awesome.

Tommy Johnson [02:00:46] And so we were, we were like minded in where we differed from super traditional orthodox Mormonism. And honestly, I think that was one. I mean, again, this will probably pop up later, but just, we agreed a lot on just life stuff.

Tommy Johnson [02:01:07] And yeah, we, neither of us were super. I don't know, like, we were. We shared like, our thoughts on Mormon stuff and maybe where we differed and we were not just like, okay with it, but, like, supportive of, like, okay, awesome. Like, I think that way too, or whatever.

Tommy Johnson [02:01:28] There was one moment. I'll share this because it's embarrasses me, but we were, we were driving to. Yeah, we're driving to a grocery store to get like, treats or something for like a movie night. And Madison had a coffee cup in her side door. And I. And I honestly, I didn't see it or anything, but she was like, yep, I drink coffee today and I don't care that I did.

Madison Johnson [02:01:52] I was in my rebellious phase where I was just. I didn't care.

Tommy Johnson [02:01:58] And I, like, kind of panicked a little. I was like, oh, no. Like, that's. That. That kind of behavior ruins a temple marriage. Like, you can't get married in the temple if you break the word of wisdom. And drinking coffee is breaking the word of wisdom. And so I mentioned, like, we got to the parking lot and I mentioned that. I was like, well, you know, like, you know, you can't do. You can't because, like, we can't get

Madison Johnson [02:02:26] married in the temple if you're gonna drink coffee.

Tommy Johnson [02:02:29] Yeah. And that, that ruined the whole night.

Madison Johnson [02:02:31] You know, I drove him back home.

Tommy Johnson [02:02:33] Yeah. She's like, she said, we're not getting treats anymore. I was like, we just drove to Smith. I was like, it's right There. She's like, no.

Madison Johnson [02:02:41] Well, no, because this is what you said. You. I showed you the coffee cup and I said, I. I drink coffee. And then you said, well, I want to get married in the temple. And I was like, okay. Then I drove you home.

Tommy Johnson [02:02:56] Yeah. Which was a fair response.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] It's a vibe kill.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:59] Healthy.

Tommy Johnson [02:02:59] Yeah. You know. Right. That doesn't really.

John Dehlin [02:03:02] No, but like, you're being self effacing here and kind of like. But for me, that might have been a deal killer. I might have just. I might have fired Margi as, as my girlfriend and said, we're done. That's. That's actually like in 2022. That is starting to sound silly. What your reaction. But in 1993, it would have been a done deal. Bye. Bye, Margi. You know what I mean?

Tommy Johnson [02:03:27] Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, and you know, personally, that was the, that was probably the physically closest I've ever been to a cup of coffee. Coffee in my life too. So. Yeah. And so I was. It did send me into a panic. I was like, you know, coffee is step one. And then Ted Bundy is. I'm just kidding. But like, I, you know, it was a, it was a big panic. And so I, I thought what I had said was like the, like, kind of the nicer version of like how I was feeling.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] Are you so indignant?

Tommy Johnson [02:03:59] Like, yeah, the rules. No, but I, I, Yeah, I was just like, this ruins like the, all the plans, you know. And then. Yeah, you drove me home and was just like, yeah, kind of deal with it a little bit.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:14] Oh, wait, Madison. How were you justifying your indignation in your mind?

Madison Johnson [02:04:19] I have no idea, because I knew that it was against the rules. I just, I think at that point I didn't really care. I was, I had always thought, like, the no coffee, no hot drinks, whatever was a stupid rule. Like, I grew up thinking that. And like, my parents had never. I mean, I was a sneaky kid. So I drank coffee in high school. Like, my school had like a cafe or whatever, and so I would just drink it at high school.

John Dehlin [02:04:44] Lattes, Are we talking? Yeah, black or whatever?

Madison Johnson [02:04:46] Like, lattes. I'm not, I'm not like, definitely not in a black coffee.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:51] But

Madison Johnson [02:04:53] so, yeah, that was just something that I. And I lied to my bishop about it to get my temple recommend. Like, I just was like, whatever. And here's the other thing, is that when. So I got my patriarchal blessing when I was 14 and I was viewing pornography at that time, and I was convinced that the. What do they call them the patriarch? Is that what they're called? The person giving me the blessing was going to know that I was sinning. And I was like, if he knows, he's gonna say it in my blessing for sure. And he obviously didn't say it because he didn't know.

Madison Johnson [02:05:31] And so that's kind of when I just started lying to my bishop and to my leaders and stuff. If I was following the rules, because I was like, they're not gonna know. The only person that knows is me. And I don't think God cares because he didn't tell the patriarch that I was sinning when. Or he's never told my bishop. My bishop's never taken my temple recommend away. And if he knew, then he would.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] So, yeah, I. I am just. I have to call it that. This point in your story, believe it or not, feels very important to me as something to highlight in the 2022 context, because in 2022, the Mormon Church is hemorrhaging in the developed world. In the United States, Canada, Western Europe, it's hemorrhaging, and it's. It's mostly hemorrhaging its millennials and its Gen Z populations.

John Dehlin [02:06:30] And, you know, it's true that religion's on the ropes in generally. Christianity's on the ropes generally, but Mormonism just as much. And one of the main reasons are. Well, some of the main reasons are the LGBT issue and then kind of like stupid, strict rules that millennials and gen zers are just like, this is dumb. It's not like, who did Joseph Smith? You know, what was. Who's Fanny Alger? What about Book of Abraham? Kindergarten plates? What are those? None of that. It's like the church is a bigot towards LGBT people, and these rules are dumb and they don't make sense. And I'm only calling that out because not only is your. Is your mom. Your mom's lost her faith by this point, Tommy. Your. Your mom is what by this point?

Madison Johnson [02:07:20] I think she was still trying, but definitely was.

John Dehlin [02:07:23] She's on the ropes.

Madison Johnson [02:07:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] And so the. Many of the parents are on the ropes, and then the kids are just starting to be confronted with the. Yep. You met an LGBT person. If you're not bisexual or gender fluid yourself. And it's just taking people out. You know what I mean? I don't mean to get too exuberant, but we're talking about the hemorrhaging of the Mormon Church in. In the modern era.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] And this is, like, how it starts, right? This is ground zero.

Madison Johnson [02:07:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] For Mormon hemorrhaging in the 21st century. Right where we are in your story.

Madison Johnson [02:07:56] And I think for me it was the fact that I drank coffee and nothing happened. So therefore it was like, okay, is this rule really that important? It obviously can't be because you know, I'm not getting struck by lightning. My bishop doesn't take away my temple recommend because he doesn't get revelation that I am drinking coffee on my lunch breaks. Like so I just, and even growing up I was always like, I want a reason as to why I'm doing things. I was that I was that kid who was super annoying and would just be like, why, why, why, why, why, why why? And nobody could give me an answer.

Madison Johnson [02:08:33] And that really made me mad. And I just felt like I was blindly following something that I didn't understand why. And so, yeah, that's kind of where it started for me was breaking small rules and not having consequences for it because they were dumb rules. So.

John Dehlin [02:08:55] Yeah, but yeah, yeah, okay.

Tommy Johnson [02:08:59] Yeah. And just to kind of, just to frame it to where I was, I, you mentioned like you would withhold information from bishops. I was an oversharer. I had. I would text bishops stuff like, hey, just like, you know, do to do. And they'd be like, okay, texting him.

John Dehlin [02:09:16] What?

Tommy Johnson [02:09:17] Well, so like pornography was still like a thing going on. And so, or even if I maybe thought about doing pornography just like, just so you know, like I kind of wanted to and, and I'm texting like a, some, you know, again, you know, these are not full time jobs. So this, you know, he's getting a

Madison Johnson [02:09:37] text at 9:30 at night.

Tommy Johnson [02:09:38] Yeah, he's a dad. He just put his kids to bed. Some 22 year old in his congregation just, just like texted him and I'm sure he's like, I gotta wake up in the morning, I have like meetings. My guy like what are you doing? But yeah, just to kind of put those two things or kind of just the differences between the two of us, you know, you saw the cup of coffee and was like, yeah, I tried it and I'm still alive and I see the cup of coffee and I'm like, that could deny you eternal happiness with me if we get married. That's a big deal. And so, so yeah, that's, yeah, that's just one, one instance and I can, you know, I don't remember everything on how I kind of mentally resolved that clearly. I, you know, we're still here. And we ended up getting married in

Madison Johnson [02:10:25] the temple and I kept drinking coffee really? Yeah. I didn't.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:31] I mean, that's interesting that. That you could stay faithful and keep drinking coffee and lie but somehow not feel like a horrible person.

Madison Johnson [02:10:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:41] Which.

John Dehlin [02:10:41] And the Tommy you would know and that you would know that she's lying and still get married. I mean, and that's not a judgment. Yeah, no, because I think a lot of people live that way in the modern era.

Madison Johnson [02:10:51] I think what it was is that I had a lot of guilt about other things. Like, I had the guilt about my parents and their divorce and all of that. And so that was just something I felt like it was something that I could control, and I wasn't feeling guilty about it. And that made me feel good because I had grown up with all of this guilt and all the shame that, like, these small things paled in comparison to these big things that I was feeling shame and guilt about. So I think that's probably what it was. But who knows? I'm cycling, psychoanalyzing myself.

Tommy Johnson [02:11:30] And for me, what allowed me to kind of. I'll just say, kind of, you know, forget or not care, you know, about the coffee drinking or whatever. I very much involved God, like, through prayer with my relationships. I never told anyone. God told me to break up with you.

Tommy Johnson [02:11:54] I'm grateful for past Tommy for that, but I would always be like, okay, is this someone that I could. I should keep dating? Like, I would just present that question to God in prayer. And when I would ask about Madison, I felt super great. And so I. I took that. That took more of a authority than anything else. So I was like, well, God, I feel. I'm feeling confident that God is like, yeah, go ahead with this.

Tommy Johnson [02:12:23] So that's. That's the plan. So if Madison still wants to get married and she does whatever she does, God said it was good. So, yeah, I took his. That kind of personal revelation authority over any sort of temple recommend interview. And it's not like we discussed. You weren't like, hey, I'm gonna go in and just, like, fib about it or anything. It was just like, okay, she went in and she came out, and we're good to go. And. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:53] That shift to internal authority that you both made prior to getting married is. Is in my generation, I think, relatively rare, and it's pretty significant. You were nodding your head, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:07] Yeah, I feel like that whole conference review we just did, it felt like so much of the last conference was a reaction to people, like, developing inner authority. And.

John Dehlin [02:13:16] Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal. So that's it's kind of a optimal way to start a Mormon marriage where instead of being uptight and afraid and like, strict and rigid with each other, you're kind of like, hey, let's do this and let's not be too ups. Let's not be too uptight about it. Yeah, let's get married Mormon, but let's be chill and drink some coffee.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:41] And don't you think it's somewhat rare for Mormons to enter into marriage with, like, allowing for the other to have that much autonomy? Because it is kind of a big thing cough, you know, it represents a lot.

John Dehlin [02:13:51] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:51] That feels like so much healthier than we're used to.

John Dehlin [02:13:54] I don't think I've ever heard this part of a Mormon story in 1700 Hours of 2000 Hours of Mormon stories. I don't think I've ever heard this pre marriage dynamic before. I don't think.

Madison Johnson [02:14:07] Yeah, I think we had a really good dynamic while we were dating. And I think a big part of it is because I've always been super independent. I. And, well, I shouldn't say I always have been because when I was dating pre Tommy, I was very not independent. I was very codependent on whoever I was dating. And I think a lot of that was because I was dealing with trauma with my parents divorce and just childhood trauma, whatever. And I think when, and I don't want this to sound mean, but when Tommy and I were dating, I was not like, crazy about him at first.

Madison Johnson [02:14:45] Whereas in my past relationships I would fall super quickly and super hard, and I would be devastated when we broke up. But what I liked about mine and Tommy's relationship and what obviously ended up working because now we're married, is that I was able to keep my independence while we were still dating. And even though we hung out all the time, like, we literally saw each other every day, but I was still, like, I didn't feel like I needed him and he allowed me to make my own decisions and choose what was going to be best for myself. And yeah, I think we just, we had a really good dynamic dating.

Madison Johnson [02:15:28] And we also were not afraid to talk about hard things. So, like, when we were dating, we would have conversations all the time about, like, what would life look like with our kids? What would life look like if you lost your job? What would it like? And that is not something I had ever experienced in a relation in a relationship before. It was always just like, okay, you'll go to work and you'll take care of me and I'll have Kids and whatever. It was very stereotypical Mormon family, whereas mine and Tommy's relationship was a lot different. But. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:04] Do you feel like those other dating experiences, like, helped you grow up in that way? Because this sounds like a more like mature version of dating compared to before?

Madison Johnson [02:16:13] Yeah, I think so. I, I mean, therapy was huge for me. I was going to therapy before I dated, before I met Tommy, and then while we were dating and then continuing on into like our first year of marriage.

Madison Johnson [02:16:27] And it helped tremendously. And yeah, I think just going through therapy and learning how to not be codependent, because that was a huge problem in my parents marriage was that my mom was 100 dependent on my dad. And so when they got divorced, she had to go back to school, she had to find a job, she didn't have savings, she had debt, like all this stuff. And now her life is like wrecked because she's divorced. And I did not want that for myself.

Madison Johnson [02:17:00] And so that's what I appreciated in our relationship. And I didn't realize that that was something that I needed when I was dating other people, probably because they didn't allow me to be independent. But yeah, therapy, that's what I tell everyone. Therapy is the answer to everything.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] In some ways. This is, I think the, the Mormon church would do better to have more couples enter into marriage with this mindset because it allows you to be flexible.

Madison Johnson [02:17:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] Instead of being rigid and breaking quickly, you can bend and be flexible. But I'm dying to know how your story unfolds because now you're entering into a Mormon marriage with a lot of relaxed flexibility. That I'm thinking, what could ever go wrong? You just, you've claimed your internal authority now, so you can just be whoever you want to be and be Mormon forever. So that's, that's where, that's where I'm curious now.

Tommy Johnson [02:18:01] Yeah. Yeah. So we, we meet, date, get engaged, and get married in seven months.

Madison Johnson [02:18:13] No, nine months.

Tommy Johnson [02:18:16] Oh, well, it was from February to September. Nine minus two is eight, seven, seven, eight or nine months. One of those numbers.

Madison Johnson [02:18:28] I hate that it was so short. It's fine.

Tommy Johnson [02:18:31] Almost, Almost a year. We'll, we'll round up. We'll round up. It was a year, but we, you know, we fell for each other pretty quickly, obviously. And so, yeah, so we get married at the end of September of 2019, and pretty pretty soon after that. I, I remember a conversation that we had as we were trying to fall asleep.

Growing Doubts and Navigating Mixed-Faith Tensions

Tommy Johnson [02:18:59] You had mentioned that you weren't. That you mentioned that you didn't know if the church was true. And that specific conversation, I was like, oh, no. Because although I had been around faith crises and was kind of having my own of kind of a shifting of belief, a complete.

Tommy Johnson [02:19:26] I don't think the church's true belief, that was new. So this was like another new thing. And for me, that was kind of like the foundation, like these other things. Like, you know, obviously the coffee thing, I was like, fine with. But with the whole church being not true, that was like, new for me. And that. That, for me really affected the whole eternal. What does this mean for our eternities? Like, we just got sealed, like, a month ago. If you don't believe it anymore, then what does that mean? And I. And at that point, I wasn't fully convinced that the only way was full Mormonism active.

Tommy Johnson [02:20:07] I just didn't know what the other options could be. And I was scared to enter that thought process. I really wanted just to Mormon our way till death. At least we're sealed and everything's good. But now she's like, maybe it's not true. I was like, oh, no. The plan.

Tommy Johnson [02:20:24] My plan that I didn't ever say out loud is being ruined. Yeah. It had the potential of kind of exploding. That was really scary for me. And I remember calling my parents the next day because I knew about my parents situation. And I was like, okay, so what do I have to do? Like, what does this mean now? And of course they're like, it's your marriage. Like, I don't know. Like, I mean, they had advice, but I was hoping that they'd be like, just read this and then do this for this long term or whatever. It wasn't like that. And I was. Yeah, I was really spooked. Is there anything you want to add to that conversation?

Madison Johnson [02:21:04] How early into our marriage was that conversation? Because I don't remember that conversation.

Tommy Johnson [02:21:10] It was. It was like, one night. And I think actually the day after, you were like, I don't know. I was just kind of, like, tired. And it's true. And it kind of. Kind of resolved. Love it. I mean, you know, maybe. Maybe. I mean, all that coffee you were

Madison Johnson [02:21:24] drinking, you know, it's keeping me up at night. But, I mean, I have had doubts about the church, I mean, since I went through the temple, which was in October of 2018, so before I even met Tommy. And I.

Madison Johnson [02:21:45] I know that I had expressed to him my discomfort with the temple. And we had shared kind of similar stories about. Because Tommy and I were not temple goers. Like, we got. We didn't go to the temple while we were dating. We got married in the temple, and then we haven't gone since. So it just. Like, we're not like those people that go every month or whatever.

Madison Johnson [02:22:13] And so I know that I had shared, like, little bits and pieces as I was feeling them with Tommy, so that I totally could have had that conversation and just not remember it because I was. I feel like I was constantly being like, I feel this way today. I feel this because, I don't know, I. I never had that, like, aha moment of, like, the church is not true anymore. Like, it was. It came in bits and pieces over the course of two, three years, and I think I was constantly sharing them with him. And, yeah, there was definitely not a lack of communication in my doubts throughout our marriage.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:56] Tommy had both your parents left by this point, so.

Tommy Johnson [02:23:02] No, my dad has always believed and still continues to believe. And my. My mom, her. Her beliefs have shifted. She still goes to church, but is quite unorthodox in her beliefs.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:26] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [02:23:28] Yeah. And I. And I don't feel confident enough to try to explain decisions of other people, but, yeah, that's kind of where they both sit at.

John Dehlin [02:23:38] Yeah. So on the one hand, I'm envying your marriage because it just takes so much intensity off the table or rigidity. On the other hand, it's not the gung ho we're gonna do. We're gonna. No empty chairs. We're gonna rock this Mormon marriage into the eternities. It's just constant, like, processing and doubts and, like, what does this mean? Yeah, so it's kind of a sluggish Mormon, early Mormon marriage in terms of the religiosity piece. Right.

Madison Johnson [02:24:10] Yeah, I think that that a hundred percent helped. When I finally decided, I was like, okay, I'm done. It wasn't like this huge explosion, and it wasn't like, Tommy's world is just completely rocked and just over, like, you know, because I had been sharing these thoughts and feelings for the past two years, it wasn't a shock to him. I mean, it was. There was a little bit of a shock factor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't like, I'm going to church and attending the temple and doing all the right things to. All of a sudden, I'm gonna leave the church now.

John Dehlin [02:24:55] So before we. Should we talk. Should we talk about your faith crisis, or is there anything else in your story leading up to your faith crisis that needs to be mentioned other than just a couple of years of marriage?

Tommy Johnson [02:25:08] Just. Just real quickly. So I, I could sense that there was, there was an obvious change in my beliefs and I feel like I could go one of two ways. I could either fit it into a nuanced progressive Mormonism route or leave and kind of start deconstructing with the, with the end result kind of leaving the faith. And I did not want to leave whatsoever. So I just completely leaned into a progressive, nuanced Mormonism.

Tommy Johnson [02:25:40] I myself, I mean, I, again, I, I didn't, you know, drink. I, I didn't have any like nuanced personal views of how I was going to interpret the gospel. I personally was still pretty orthodox, like word of wisdom, keeping it.

Tommy Johnson [02:25:56] I was going to church, believed in the Book of Mormon, personally believed all this stuff, but I absolutely allowed for like, I was, I didn't think LGBTQ people were either anything negative. You know, the messaging of the negativity changes throughout the church's history. But, you know, like, I didn't think that the, I didn't find the, you know, them falling in love to be sinful.

Tommy Johnson [02:26:26] I thought that the just honestly some classic progressive Mormonism, like the priesthood ban, not revelatory Brigham Young's racism, did that the, the revelation to bring it back was more of just an agreement by all 15 in charge to. They'll finally were all chill with it. That wasn't a revelation.

Tommy Johnson [02:26:48] So I, I was in that wave of Mormonism. We'll call it the Dr. Hanks Mormonism. I, I feel bad invoking her name, but just a little bit kind of like that, making seeing issues, trying to figure out issues, but definitely committed to staying in the faith.

John Dehlin [02:27:08] Okay, so let's go there really quick because like I, I remember thinking that I might have. And this is just in my brain. Like I remember having the thought when I started to talk about orthodox or unorthodox Mormonism, I don't know, 18 years ago. Like, I remember thinking, am I the first person to ever even use those words in a Mormon context? And that may sound weird to people, but within Mormonism, there's no such thing as unorthodox or orthodox.

Madison Johnson [02:27:35] Yeah, there's not.

John Dehlin [02:27:35] They don't even know what that word means. You're just either devout and you're Mormon or you're like an anti Mormon or a Jack Mormon or never Mormon. There's nothing in between. Am I wrong?

Tommy Johnson [02:27:47] No.

Madison Johnson [02:27:47] So 100, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:49] So this idea of an. And let's just distinguish. Orthodox means you believe in a traditional way. Orthoprax would mean you, you do all the things you're supposed to do as a Mormon. So you would, you would be unorthoprax in your Mormonism at the time you're married, Madison, because you're drinking coffee. That's unorthodox. Right. Or that's an orthoprax. And then you're talking about unorthodox, which means my beliefs are going to be different than what the Brethren are teaching. So let's just talk briefly about like, how would that. Knowing that that has like never been a thing until it's a modern. It's a relatively modern thing. How would you even know that there was the option of being unorthodox? And then what would be your community or your channels or your sources of information that would model the possibility of unorthodoxy?

Tommy Johnson [02:28:46] Yeah. So honestly, channels and community was on social media where though Twitter, I think was a big one. Honestly, like fellow millennials and probably gen Zers at the time too. Just creating just this space to exist and like affirming that space and being like, okay, you can do both. You can be a practicing Mormon and think that same sex marriage is totally fine.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] Okay, so I'm just, I'm geeking out here. I love to geek out. So like five or 10 years ago, you would, you would listen to Dan Witherspoon's Mormon Matters podcast. That's the way you'd be introduced. Well, first you would listen to Mormon stories back when I was still in the church and doing the progressive Mormon thing. You would read the Stale DS website which I wrote, which would tell you how to stay in the church as a semi or non believer. Or you would, you would listen to Dan, whether Swings, Mormon Matters or his successor, Gina Colvin, she took over Mormon Matters from Dan. Or you would join the Thoughtful Faith Facebook group which then changed its name, that which I started, which changed to Waters of Mormon because they wanted to disassociate for me after my excommunication.

John Dehlin [02:30:03] So they changed the name. And this was a way that, let's just say five or ten years ago you would. Or you would go to Sunstone or Dialogue. You go to Sunstone conferences or read Dialogue Journal. And these were ways that you could discover liberal, progressive and orthodox Mormonism and. Or join communities. But none of that was part of your journey. Right?

Tommy Johnson [02:30:26] Well, Waters of Mormon. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:30:27] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [02:30:29] I didn't know it pre John. So just, just Waters of Mormon. Yeah, I would read stuff from Dialogue because it sounded like me. I felt comfortable in that space. But there were just a lot of self declared progressive Mormons on the, on the online. Just kind of in that space.

John Dehlin [02:30:54] So like you're following Twitter. Can you name some of the big Twitter accounts that model or that we're modeling? Because all these, a lot of these people end up leaving the church. But at least at the time, can you think of any of the big names either on Twitter or elsewhere who are kind of modeling progressive Mormonism? Yeah, I mean Today it is Dr. Julie Hank. She's like a giant.

Tommy Johnson [02:31:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:14] But three years ago she wasn't as big.

Tommy Johnson [02:31:17] Yeah. And you know, I'm trying to think and, and I, I really do think, I, I, I honestly look kind of inward toward like my mom. I was like, well she's making it work in a way. I felt comfortable just kind of doing that. I also, yeah, I, you know, I feel bad there are people, but I think, well, so one, one that was a big one for me was Richard Osler's podcast. Right. And just being, we'll include all these

John Dehlin [02:31:57] in the show notes too.

Tommy Johnson [02:31:57] Yeah, listen, learning, love.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] And he's got a pro, LGBT faithful Mormon podcast, right?

Tommy Johnson [02:32:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:04] Papa Oslo, kind of his, his nickname. And he's the brother of David Osler who have also had a Mormon stories, who wrote the Bridges book, which is about how to treat your non believing Mormon family members as a believing Mormon, which is a great book and we'll include a link to that as well. Yeah, so, so the Oslers were influential to you?

Tommy Johnson [02:32:25] Yeah, they played a role. And I also, I, I dove deep because I, I still had a sense of authority like that I needed to hear stuff that was either said over the pulpit at one point or currently. And so I, I, I, I became a big Hubie Brown fan and I say that cautiously because I don't know everything he's ever said and I don't know so I don't want to tie myself directly to him, but there were plenty of stuff where he was like talked about doubting and coupling that with faith. But he, he wasn't, I didn't find him to be afraid of talking about doubts and he was, I think he was Canadian as well.

Tommy Johnson [02:33:05] And there were a lot of kind of liberal, more liberal leaning and more open to just kind of non orthodox kind of Canadian because it's, you know, so shout out Canada. But yeah, so I, I found quotes and stuff that I felt good with and I would compile them and like, yeah, so like, and stuff maybe from, you know, President Uchtdorf that was more

John Dehlin [02:33:32] soft, you know, one of the patron saints of modern progressive liberal Mormonism.

Tommy Johnson [02:33:37] Exactly. You know, so I, you know, I, I, I did pick and choose the stuff that felt nice and, and allowed for me to be what I felt was a, a faithful progressive Mormon. And it was faithful in the sense that I was paying tithing, I was going to church, I believed in all the things to a degree.

Tommy Johnson [02:34:01] I was keeping the word of wisdom, I was temple worthy while also being okay with other people not and like supporting that too. And I felt that's, that's kind of, to me, that's kind of the, the tagline of progressive Mormonism is I'm Mormon and you're not and we're both correct or we're both right and we're both happy and I'm not going to try to convince you to become Mormon. That's kind of how I felt was like, I'm happy with whatever anyone else does. I'm here in my little lane and it feels good right now. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:35] So, yeah. And then there's, then there's the ex Mormons out there. Me, Mormon stories, Bill real, you know, Raider Free Mormon and others. And I find that sometimes some of my biggest haters are progressive Mormons. So how did you view? Did you like flirt with the ex Mormon stuff or did you like hate it and stay away from it?

Tommy Johnson [02:34:58] So to feel like I other people, to find people that I could relate to, I would listen, slash watch to or watch Mormon stories, like four fifths of a video. I would end the podcast before they left. So I'd be like, okay, so these people, these people have all read the CES letter. These people have all, they know the church history stuff. They made it work for a time and then they go like, but then this and the boop.

Tommy Johnson [02:35:31] New video or new podcast, I would cut it off. And no, I don't have any specific, you know, thoughts or whatever, but I definitely, I mean, I would hear stuff from ex Mormons that would talk about how they felt like progressive Mormonism was maybe more hurtful than helpful because it kept, you know, an institution that they viewed to be ultimately hurtful alive.

Tommy Johnson [02:35:58] And that would upset me because I'd be like, I'm right here. Like I'm doing it. Like it's totally fine and I'm whatever. So I wasn't like anti ex Mormon or whatever, but I definitely did not appreciate some of the sentiments because I, I was like, I'm making it work and I'm not a bad person and whatever because I would maybe hear some of that.

Tommy Johnson [02:36:18] But yeah, so I mean I, I can, I Yeah, I. I do have memories of listening or watching to most of a stories episode on purpose and then closing it out before they left because I didn't want to hear it, honestly, because I knew that it would probably do something to me and some seeds. Yeah. And I just. I just. I don't think I was ready. And I just don't. Slash. I didn't want it at that time. So I just. I would consciously swipe out and go to something completely unrelated to kind of like just chill out my mind. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:53] Was that section of people's stories, like, comforting to you? Like, what did you get out of it?

Tommy Johnson [02:36:57] Yeah. So I felt like, yeah, it was 100% comforting. That was the. The motivation was people who. New stuff that I knew and felt like it was a problem because I would go to, like, Fairmormon and they're talking about the stuff that I know, but by the end of the article, it was like. But it's totally, like, kind of chill and fine. And there was stuff that I didn't think was chill and fine. So I was trying to find people who were just like me that knew, like, issues within the church history or historical or current and didn't feel great about it, but stayed. And that didn't offer a lot. So I had to make up my own, which was a 4/5 of a Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [02:37:43] And part of why I'm smiling so big is because the first time I ever saw any of your TikTok content, I think you did a TikTok making fun of how long Mormon Stories episodes were, but you were listening to 4/5 of them, Right. And they were helping you, Right?

Tommy Johnson [02:37:56] Well, yeah, so I. Yeah. And yeah. So in that specific TikTok, I know exactly what you're talking about. I make fun of two things. I make fun of the name, how it's Mormon Stories, because I pretend to be. I think I say, hi, I'm John de Lune, and welcome to Ex Mormon Stories. And I'm like, wait, it's Mormon Stories. Oh, for SEO purposes.

Tommy Johnson [02:38:20] Because that's how I stumbled across it the first time. So that was like an inside joke to myself. And then I do say, all right, now tell us your story. And the person's story is, I used to be Mormon, but now I'm not.

Tommy Johnson [02:38:32] And then I pretend to be you. And I cut them off and say, okay, do that, but take like three or four hours to do it. And I remember I did this all. I did this all so carefully. I put that on there and in the caption, I was like, like it or not, they are long. That's just, like, an objective fact. So I did. I tried very hard not to. To not have it be like, they're long and that's dumb. Or like, that's long and that's awesome. It's just like, they're long.

Tommy Johnson [02:39:01] And I. And I. Because I knew that I had followers who thought that, like, yeah, and those are dumb, but also, like, yeah, and that's great that they're long. So I was trying to just make everyone happy. And I also.

John Dehlin [02:39:12] SEO.

Tommy Johnson [02:39:13] SEO purposes. I was trying to just make everyone happy. Happy. But also, I didn't think. I thought the fact that, you know, I was poking fun at the length thing was just my own attention span or whatever. But also, yeah, I would watch, you know. Yeah. That wasn't my. I wasn't hiding the, you know, the fact that I listened to them or whatever.

John Dehlin [02:39:36] But, yeah, I mean, on the one hand, humor's awesome, and I love it. And I love people making fun of me. There is a weird dynamic in what I do because there's. There is a common trajectory, and it starts with orthodox, and then it's doubting, and then it's often progressive, and then they leave the church. But sometimes in that orthodox phase, people write me these emails like, you're an evil person. You are worse than Satan. I can't believe how you tear people's faith from their clutches and ruin families.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:07] You know?

John Dehlin [02:40:08] And then I just do that voice before. What's that?

Samantha Shelley [02:40:09] I've never seen you do that voice before.

John Dehlin [02:40:11] Yeah, and then you. That's what the voice I hear in my head when I'm reading their Facebook message to me. Yeah. But then, like, sometimes you wait, like, three years and then you get the message, which is like, john, I just have to tell you, I'm just so, so sorry for that message I sent you.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:26] I love this DMs.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] And it's not like I'm like, ha, ha, you know, like, laughing back, but it is. It's kind of interesting to see people's trajectory.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:37] Yeah. I think they react most strongly when something has hit them that is shaking them up. That's when I feel like people are most likely to send just the most unhinged messages.

John Dehlin [02:40:47] Oh, yeah. Like their spouse tells them they're leaving or their kid does a gender transition, and they're just super angry and they need someone to blame.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:55] Yeah. Because if they're really secure, it's. They're just like, oh, anti Mormons. Who cares?

John Dehlin [02:41:00] This woman. I had. This woman sent me a DM on Instagram the other day, and it was just like, have fun ruining people's eternal salvation. John de Lynn, my niece just did a gender transition and had surgery and deformed her beautiful body. And I was just like, whoa, like, you're. First of all, you're putting all that on me. And second of all, worst aunt ever. Like, you're gonna wreck this human's life. Like, can you just. You know. But it's just like, like you said, Samantha, she. In her world, the worst possible things are happening.

Madison Johnson [02:41:35] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:35] Because, like, Mormons aren't taught how to really, like, healthily process emotions outside the con. You know, they're taught to just process everything through the church and be psychologically dependent on that. So when something threatens that, it's like they gotta displace it somewhere.

John Dehlin [02:41:48] Yeah.

Madison Johnson [02:41:48] It's like, oh, you're upset about something. Go read the scriptures. Go pray. It's like, okay. Or maybe do something else.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:56] Yeah. Like maybe a therapist. Yeah.

Madison Johnson [02:41:59] Get some healthy coping mechanisms.

John Dehlin [02:42:02] Yeah. Well, I mean, like, this is just so many people's journey, and that's why I like to slow down and talk about it. Just because you're gonna be. Your story is going to help other people feel validated, and so many Gen Z or millennial people are going to really relate to this exact story. So, yeah, thanks for being willing to talk about it.

Tommy Johnson [02:42:23] Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And just in that same line of thinking, there are definitely, like, I've. I've said comments on videos or posts or whatever, talking bad pro about you. And Mormon stories have been like, yeah, John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [02:42:41] Because at the time, what were you feeling?

Tommy Johnson [02:42:43] Because. Yeah, so one. So, yeah, so my, My. A lot of my mom's faith stuff within that journey did include Mormon stories. And you're. You're the face of Mormon stories. You're. You're the person. You know, you're the person. And so just a lot of just ill feelings sometimes because, like I mentioned, overall, I was. My mom coming to me with a faith crisis and all that was. There was a lot of positivity in there. But then, you know, just things happen and there's days and there's moments, and it's your. It's your fault, of course, and.

John Dehlin [02:43:23] Because on the one hand, your mom's. When you, when your mom came out to you, your words were, thank goodness. Right.

Tommy Johnson [02:43:31] And yeah, in my head, I was like, well, yeah, there's someone like me in the family.

John Dehlin [02:43:35] And. But then. But then you still. I. I emptied your mom's chair and so you could. There can. You can still be mad at me.

Tommy Johnson [02:43:43] Yeah. So. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. And because again, like, when I was talking about, you know, Madison was fine, I was okay with like, little. Little things, if you will. But then, like, the church. Yeah, but the church isn't true. That was too big of a thing for me to think about.

John Dehlin [02:43:58] That's the bridge too far.

Tommy Johnson [02:44:00] Yeah. So when that, you know, that kind of happened with. With my. With my mom and some other people I was close to, and a lot of the common theme was at some point coming across Mormon stories. And so, you know, the c. The CES letter doesn't have a face, per se. So you're. You're the face.

John Dehlin [02:44:20] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [02:44:20] You know, you're the bad guy. So. Sorry. My apologies. And. And interesting. And I mean, and one lesson because. And of course we'll get into this, that I've learned just from gaining a little bit of a social media reach is I've quickly learned that you don't know anything about anyone just by seeing them a video or whatever, because I'm told all sorts of things about myself that I'm learning from strangers. I'm like, oh, that's really neat. I didn't know that about myself. And so, yeah, so I. There's a lot of stuff that, you know, I'm like, oh, man, maybe I shouldn't have said that about that, you know, athlete who performed poorly on my favorite sports team.

Tommy Johnson [02:45:01] Maybe I shouldn't have tweeted at him. Hopefully he didn't read it because I said it was just really kind of mean to him. He's a human, you know, or whatever. Just learned a lot of lessons from that.

John Dehlin [02:45:10] So, yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:13] It's gotta be so wild having so many people weigh in on your life while going through a fit because you got big on tick tock before leaving. Womanism. That's just got to be wild when your brain is already like, re. Stabilizing and then having all these opinions.

Tommy Johnson [02:45:27] Yeah. And I think that's a fair question to kind of get into.

John Dehlin [02:45:30] So you became kind of a progressive, faithful tiktoker.

Tommy Johnson [02:45:34] So. Well, so I to timeline wise in early 2021. So, okay, so we get married September 2019. Covid hits changes the world February 2020. So we stopped going to church because everyone stops going to church. But we're not too upset about it.

Madison Johnson [02:45:59] We weren't super active in our newly married ward because I had worked with someone who hated me and she ended up Being in our warm. In our married ward. So we weren't going to church a lot before COVID but then covet hit and it was like, okay, church doesn't even happen now. So.

Tommy Johnson [02:46:24] Yeah. And then we moved into my parents home during this time as well. And I just want to mention this too because there's not a specific date, but by this time, so I have two sisters. Grace came out to me first and that was, you know, a big moment for myself in terms of just, you know, realizing stuff. And then somewhere in between this as well, my second sister Claire also came out as queer. And she never, you know, sat me down or told me or whatever. She mentioned something on an Instagram story and I just messaged her to kind of confirm what she was saying just to, you know, I just wanted to check in with my sister and she's like, yeah. And so, yeah, so that happened too. So now just, I have two sisters. They're both out to me in this space of progressive Mormonism. Totally fine with like, that's all awesome.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:25] So.

Tommy Johnson [02:47:25] Yeah, well, fast forward just kind of a some unimportant months in terms of our stories, but early 2021, you start doing a lot of research about stuff and then you end up leaving.

Madison Johnson [02:47:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:42] Okay, cool. So I think maybe the next part is Madison for you to tell us how you went from like being a chill, unorthoprex, semi believing Mormon with a progressive Mormon husband in an early marriage. What took. What took you out? What took you out?

Faith Crisis: Family Exits and Gospel Topics Essays

Madison Johnson [02:47:59] Yeah, so Tommy's brother and sister in law actually like out of the blue said that they were leaving the church. And that was around this. This was May of 2021.

John Dehlin [02:48:17] Yeah, literally last year.

Madison Johnson [02:48:19] Yeah. Yeah. So May of 2021, Tommy's older brother and sister in law tell his whole family that they're leaving the church. And this was like a pretty big shock, but I felt like it gave me permission to also say that I'm done with the church. And I didn't want to completely come out and say, okay, yeah, also I'm done. Peace out. Like your whole family's like just been thrown for a loop also. Here's another loop to be thrown through.

Madison Johnson [02:48:51] But I was pretty sure I was done. And I think it was just a bunch of little things that made me realize that I didn't believe in the church anymore. One of them was my sister coming out to me and I, I just like couldn't.

Madison Johnson [02:49:18] I'm trying to find the right words to describe what I was feeling, but I couldn't justify being a part of a church that monetarily supported things like that were anti lgbtq. When I had a sister who I'm telling her that I love her, I respect her, I love that she's happy and is making these decisions that's going to make her happy and that involves her being gay. Yet I'm sending money to this church that is anti lgbtq. Not just. We don't really like gay people. Whatever. It's anti.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] Yeah. Like Proposition 8, where the church tries to take same sex marriage away from and succeeds and taking same sex marriage away from Californians.

Madison Johnson [02:50:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:06] They did the same thing in. In, you know, Arizona. They did similar things in Hawaii. And then just all the lobbying behind the scenes and all the amicus court briefs. Like.

Madison Johnson [02:50:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:16] In fact, there's. There's probably no public advocacy that the Mormon Church has been more vocal about. Not clean water, not hunger, not starvation, not literacy, not women's rights. It's all the gay menace. It's all kill, defeat same sex marriage in, like, every general conference for the past 20 years. Like, it's. It's so. I mean, I'm just like. I don't mean to, like, go off here.

Madison Johnson [02:50:44] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:44] That's what the church, if the Mormon Church stands for anything, it's like families and don't let gay people get married.

Madison Johnson [02:50:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:50] Those are the. That's our brand.

Madison Johnson [02:50:52] Right. And so I. She came out to me and I told her that I loved her and that I respected her, and I love that she was making decisions for herself that we're going to make her happy. But I was paying tithing to this church who is anti my sister, anti my. Whoever my sister wants to love.

Madison Johnson [02:51:16] And I felt so much guilt about that. And I just felt like, how can I love my sister and tell her that I love her and meet her next girlfriend or whoever she decides to date? How can I meet them and look them in the eye and tell them that I respect them and respect their decision and love their decision to be together when I'm monetarily supporting an organization that hates them?

Madison Johnson [02:51:46] And that was kind of the first. Well, I don't even want to say the first thing because there were just so many things like the temple that I was uncomfortable with and all. So many things. But that was like the first big thing that really made me think about if I want to be supporting the church.

Madison Johnson [02:52:06] So I stopped paying tithing and I wasn't really going to church because it was during COVID and so our ward didn't even meet until I feel like they didn't meet in their church building for like a year. And so that wasn't an issue. I was just not going because Kovid was happening. And that was like, kind of my scapegoat a little bit.

Madison Johnson [02:52:32] And that was. I think that was the only thing that Tommy and I argued about, was paying tithing because Tommy wanted to be temple worthy. I didn't care about that because I hated the temple pretty much since I went into it. And so I just.

Madison Johnson [02:52:48] I didn't really care about that. And so, yeah, I stopped paying tithing. And then everything just kind of collapsed after that. I started looking into the. The stuff that you were just talking about, about Prop 8 and all that. I read the CES letter and it all happened, like, pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [02:53:13] Really quick. What were the big things that jumped out at you from the CES letter?

Madison Johnson [02:53:19] All of it. I just.

John Dehlin [02:53:23] Just for people that have no idea

Madison Johnson [02:53:24] what it is, I. So I am not super familiar. I would probably be what people call a lazy learner, as in, I did not ever. Like, I've never read the Book of Mormon all the way through. I've read it like, well, at least not on my own. We've read it like, as a family or something, but I'm not paying attention. I'm 14, you know, like, whatever mom and dad are doing family scripture study, I'll sit here and listen, pretend that I'm paying attention.

Madison Johnson [02:53:54] But the stuff about there not being any archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon or like it taking place in North America weirded me out a little bit because I think it was the conference before, but. And this wasn't the first time that I heard. Had heard it, but somebody had said something about the Book of Mormon being a book of history. Like, it's historically accurate. And I didn't understand how the two could be true, how there could be no evidence about it yet. It's historically accurate. So that was one of them.

John Dehlin [02:54:36] Book of Abraham. Did that register for you?

Madison Johnson [02:54:38] No, I was. I wasn't a super.

John Dehlin [02:54:40] Yeah, that's fine.

Madison Johnson [02:54:41] Big reader. So I just. Yeah, especially because. So my mom and dad had trouble getting their temple ceiling canceled because my dad could be married to more than one or sealed to more than one woman. And he was getting remarried to my stepmom, but my mom wasn't getting remarried. So they were like, well, if you cancel your ceiling, then you're not going to be. Have these covenants. You're not going to be able to go to the highest degree. And that really Bothered me is that my dad could just go and get sealed to another person, but my mom couldn't. And I was like, okay, well yeah,

John Dehlin [02:55:18] they literally, number one, will let a Mormon man who gets divorced gets sealed to as many women as he marries.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:27] Without end. So literally a Mormon man could die being sealed to five women in the afterlife if, if all of the five women that he marries and then divorces weren't sealed to somebody else. So that's like polygamy existing modern Mormonism. But then that other thing where your mom may be like, I don't want to be sealed to this guy forever.

Madison Johnson [02:55:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:49] Sometimes even, even a woman won't believe the church is true anymore, will think that the ceiling thing is all dumb, but they'll still say I don't want to be sealed to this guy even in this magic fictitious la la land Mormon marriage stuff. But they won't let a woman spiritually or un divorce or unseal herself from her husband unless she's got another Mormon

Madison Johnson [02:56:13] man, unless she has a replacement wanting

John Dehlin [02:56:15] to marry her in the temple. And that's mind boggling in 2022 they

Samantha Shelley [02:56:20] will just flat out refuse. There's no like process for, I think

John Dehlin [02:56:23] they'll him and ha and give her a hard time. But, but some of the women, this is in Carolyn Pearson's book the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy that women have to like beg and cajole and even talk to a man and beg him to let her get unsealed. Even if it's allowed for so many women. The process of having to begging, plead to get unsealed, traumatizing.

Madison Johnson [02:56:47] And there's not like a set process that you go through to like have a get unsealed. Unless you have another worthy marriage, then it's extremely difficult to cancel your ceiling to your first husband or second whatever. So yeah, that was another thing. And it was just all these little tiny things that like I had doubts about them before. Before but now reading them in somebody else's words and them providing, I, I don't know if I want to call it evidence, but to me it was evidence at the time and I believed pretty much everything that the CAS letter said.

John Dehlin [02:57:25] And so you didn't mention Joseph Smith's polygamy bugging you?

Madison Johnson [02:57:28] No, I, I honestly didn't know about it. I didn't, I didn't learn about it at church. Like I knew that he practiced polygamy, but I didn't know to the extent I didn't know that it was with underage girls.

John Dehlin [02:57:40] And you learned that in the CES letter?

Madison Johnson [02:57:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:42] And then what was your reaction?

Madison Johnson [02:57:44] I was disgusted. I think that I. I think the biggest thing that bothered me was the fact that I didn't learn that at church, that it was buried, and that I. Nobody talked about it when it's a huge problem. And, like, why are we not addressing that? Like, it's being hidden from me, and I have to read it in this anti Mormon literature. And it's not even. Like, it's just facts. Like, it's not. It's not really anti Mormon to tell the history of the Mormon Church, but the Mormon Church doesn't want. It puts a bad look on the church. So.

John Dehlin [02:58:24] So this is weird. And it's not weird, but I'm just gonna play the. The role of the church here. This is weird because in 2020, in 2014, the church came out with like 10 or 15 gospel topics essays. One of them was polygamy and Joseph Smith's polygamy. And so you should have learned about that in 2014. Why didn't you learn about it from the gospel topics essay on polygamy that the church put out?

Madison Johnson [02:58:47] I didn't know those things existed.

John Dehlin [02:58:49] Oh, right.

Madison Johnson [02:58:50] I. Yeah, I was taught growing up that what you learn is from the Book of Mormon, the Bible, sometimes. Sometimes the Bible, they've got little footnotes that Joseph Smith has made some corrections and whatnot. And what your church leaders say. And even then, sometimes. Or not, church leaders, the prophet, the prophet, and the apostles, anything else that you hear is might be true, might not be, whatever.

John Dehlin [02:59:21] And that's so. It is so mind. It's almost like Orwellian that the church publishes these essays in 2014, but they don't want the youth to read them. And so we're talking seven, eight years after they've been published.

Madison Johnson [02:59:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:35] You've. You're a Mormon. The church published these essays and you've never heard about them.

Samantha Shelley [02:59:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] And then you're feeling betrayed.

Madison Johnson [02:59:42] Yeah. And I think that if I would have learned about them in 2014, I mean, I was a junior in high school, I probably would not. I might have had, like, oh, and ew, that's gross. Why would he marry underage women? But I. I don't think I would have. It wouldn't have triggered me to leave the church. But now reading it after, like, it's basically been hidden from me. I had never heard about the gospel topic essays until Tommy told me about them. And, yeah, I was just. I was very angry that I was not presented with all of the information after I had been extremely faithful to this church for 21, 22 years. So.

John Dehlin [03:00:33] And it's a weird dynamic because the church doesn't want and hasn't promoted the gospel topics essays broadly. Like, there's never been a general conference where the church has told all the members to read the gospel topics essays. I don't think they've ever been mentioned yet in general conference. But as of 2022, they want them to be out there so that if someone's in crisis, they can be pointed to them, but they don't want to trigger people's faith crisis by promoting them. And so they want. So they want them there, but they don't want them there. And the cost of that is, is people feeling betrayed.

Madison Johnson [03:01:08] You know, I did feel betrayed and lied to. And at first I was kind of angry at my parents for not informing me of these things, but then I asked my dad if he even knew about the gospel topic essays, and he had no idea. And so it wasn't just that, oh, I was 16 and I was kind of just naive. It. My 40 year old dad didn't even know about them. And he, he's very, he's very Mormon, he's very devout. He is the elders quorum president right now. He's always held like men's callings, like leadership positions, whatever. And he had no idea what these were.

Madison Johnson [03:01:50] And yeah, so I, I read the CES letter and I think I had already made up my mind about if I was going to leave the church before I read the CES letter. But the CES letter was just the nail in the coffin. I was completely done after that. And I had written down all of these things. I wish that I still had the note in my phone, but I don't think I do.

Madison Johnson [03:02:19] That I wanted to talk to Tommy about because I was like, I knew that he had read the CES letter. I was like, okay, so you've read. You have all the information that I have now we are on level playing grounds. Is that, is that the phrase? Okay?

Madison Johnson [03:02:34] And I, Yeah, so that's when I came to him and just said, hey, this is what I'm now learning. None of this is new information to Tommy. He had read the CES letter and I was like, I cannot do this anymore. And yeah, that's kind of. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:55] So number one, Tommy, you didn't tell us you read the CES letter. And then number two, I'm dying to know how you read it and didn't lose your faith. And then I Want to hear totally how, how it was for you to respond to Madison losing your faith after reading something that didn't cause you to lose your faith. But let's start with. Take us back to when you first read the CES letter, if you remember.

Tommy Johnson [03:03:18] Yeah, I don't remember the time period or time frame. I do remember reading it. And there was, there was a mixture of stuff that I heard before and stuff that I hadn't heard before. The first thing I did after reading it was search for faith affirming responses.

Tommy Johnson [03:03:48] And I found Jim Bennett some. And there were. I had like, just a classic apologist answer to anything that I had troubles with or I openly had troubles with stuff. But just kind of. I. The main thing again, for me was, you know, for whatever reason, I just, I definitely really wanted to stay. So that bias was just there.

Tommy Johnson [03:04:21] So learning about the ages of some of Joseph Smith's wives, at one point, years ago, I would have just said, well, that was just the time period when people got married. It's just that thing at this point, when I had read the CES letter, I had thrown that idea away and just thought, it's weird and it's creepy, but I still want.

John Dehlin [03:04:48] Prophets are imperfect.

Tommy Johnson [03:04:49] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:49] Or.

Tommy Johnson [03:04:50] Or I don't even know to there. There is no logical line to where I ended up. Wherever, you know, how much time it took was. I. I just don't want to really leave because what does that mean? What is life without Mormonism? I don't know. And so I just didn't allow myself to get to a point where I would end up leaving. So I didn't have a perfect answer of like, well, it's totally fine because this or this or like, we just don't know. I was like, no, that's gross. I hate it. But I still want to stay.

John Dehlin [03:05:25] What about. Same with Book of Mormon and, you know, historicity.

Tommy Johnson [03:05:30] Yeah. Yeah. And I. So my testimony. So when, when, when Madison came to me with these things, my personal testimony about truthfulness of stuff was a skeleton. And it was down to. I really do believe that there's a God and that he has a son, Jesus Christ, he came down, died for our sins. And again, going back to my mission experiences that the priesthood had been restored and I had somehow played a role in using the priesthood and those experiences were real. But honestly, everything else was a big old question mark. Or just, I don't believe that. So it was really small.

John Dehlin [03:06:14] Yeah. And so it's like not sure if this is the true church. Not sure how much Joseph Smith was a prophet versus a fallen prophet. Not sure how true the Book of Mormon of the Doctrine and Covenants, of the Book of Abraham are, but I don't want any empty chairs. I love my family. I don't want to disappoint everybody. And, you know, I want to do this because I don't know how else I'm going to be happy in my life.

Tommy Johnson [03:06:38] Exactly. And it's that last one that was the biggest motivator was like, what else would I do? I really don't know. I literally don't know any other way to live. And, you know, being in Utah or whatever too, just like, okay, that's just not the norm. What am I going to do? I'll just stay because I created a space where I felt I could just sit and totally just survive there.

John Dehlin [03:07:04] And I don't want to make this too dark or technical, but, like, I think there's a. There's a concept that I think a psychologist, Dave Marty Seligman popularized called learned helplessness, that if you, like, get a dog in a little circle and, you know, it elect, it shocks him every time he tries to leave a circle. At some point, you could remove the shock fence or the shock collar, and he's just going to stay in the circle because his whole life he's been trained. You can't leave the circle. Learned helplessness.

Tommy Johnson [03:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:34] And I don't mean. And I don't think the church would ever do that intentionally, but what I'm hearing you say is that from all your indoctrination or teachings or family experiences, as wonderful as your family was, you got to adulthood feeling like you can't be healthy and happy and be a Mormon. And that's what made me stay in the church 13 years after I stopped believing in it. I stayed active until they kicked me out because I'm like, I can't. I won't be a faithful husband if I leave the church. And I. My kids, I can't raise a health. You can't raise happy, healthy kids without being Mormon, you know, Plus, I'll disappoint everybody. I'm staying.

Samantha Shelley [03:08:13] Well, you say the church wouldn't do that on purpose, but it's a pretty open message of them that, like, if you leave, you will suffer. You'll be unable to cope. The outside world is scary. Like, those are all messages they've openly taught.

John Dehlin [03:08:25] Right. And the only point I'm. I don't think, like, Jeffrey Holland's going, how do I lie to keep them in the church?

Samantha Shelley [03:08:30] He did say he would like. What was the thing he said about missions? That he would tie a missionary up to make sure they don't go home.

John Dehlin [03:08:37] But I think that's because he sincerely believes, and maybe it's been his experience that when people leave their missions early, their life doesn't go so well. Now maybe that's a self fulfilling prophecy because they get treated so poorly when they come home. But I think Jeffrey Holland probably sincerely feels like it's not going to be in the missionary's best interest to leave his mission early. And likewise, I think when, when general authorities make these ominous warnings about, you know, you'll never be happy, don't leave the boat, you know, it's only misery to be an ex Mormon. I think they really believe it and I think they really think it.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:09] Yeah, well, if you.

John Dehlin [03:09:10] That's all I'm saying.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:12] That it's sincere when they teach that.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:14] Yeah, potentially. But when you encourage psychological dependency and then you remove the thing that people are psychologically dependent on, what, you know, what they're going to do, their life probably does come crumbling down in a lot of instances. Like there's not an automatic replacement. People have to figure that out. And it's usually like such a wrestle battle.

John Dehlin [03:09:31] And that's why Mormon stories exist. That's why Zelf on the Shelf exists. Just we're all realizing this is way too hard and not super healthy or ethical. If you, if it ends up, if it's working for you, if there's no empty chairs and you're all your family stays in and nobody's gay and nobody's, you know, reads the CES letter and nobody's super depressed or whatever. No one gets divorced. Yeah, it's great. But that's no Mormon story anywhere.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:59] No human life.

John Dehlin [03:10:00] Right?

Samantha Shelley [03:10:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:01] Because people are going to stumble on the CES letter, they're going to look at porn or they're going to have premarital sex or they're going to lose their faith or they're going to be gay or bisexual or transgender or something. And so like it. And so it's just so I almost, I think about both, I think about your family, particularly Tommy. This whole like no empty chairs thing, how it sets parents up for such disappointment because you, like, you, all the kids are young, they can't leave the church. You're a bishop, you're serving in the church, you're doing your family meeting, you're singing the songs and everybody's happy and it's feels wonderful.

John Dehlin [03:10:39] It's like Ned Flanders and the Flinders Flanders family on the Simpsons and you think, you think I can get 15 years into this and you're still feeling like the dream is alive and we're on our way. But then like to no fault of your mom's, no fault of your dad's, the kids start dropping like flies.

John Dehlin [03:11:00] And then all of a sudden it's more empty chairs than not empty chairs. And like your mom, I'm thinking about your mom when she lost her faith. She's got to be like, okay, wait a minute, now there's, now there's an empty chair. Oh, now there's another empty chair. Well, that's sad heaven. All of a sudden I don't want to go to the celestial kingdom without my two daughters. Oh, and now my daughter in law. And then, you know, and then all of a sudden and it's like, that's when, that's when the Mormon dream unravels. And I feel bad for parents that are kind of set up to be to, to fail a little bit. I don't know if that's your mom's

Tommy Johnson [03:11:35] story, but like, yeah, it could be.

John Dehlin [03:11:38] Who wants to go to sad heaven? Who wants to go to sad Mormon heaven where half your family isn't there? Yeah, right.

Tommy Johnson [03:11:44] Yeah, I, I'd say nobody, hopefully. You know, I hope that's nobody's dream.

Madison Johnson [03:11:48] I mean, if you don't think, if you want to go there, then you probably don't think it's sad, but fair.

John Dehlin [03:11:56] Okay, so when she, so you found a way to just turn it off. Like you literally. This is book of moral musical stuff. You're not gay in, in this story, but you're, you're basically saying, okay, everything's problematic, but I don't want to leave and I can't leave. But now my wife is coming to me saying she doesn't believe anymore. So like, how did you handle it?

Tommy Johnson [03:12:16] Yeah, so like, like she mentioned right before she left and, and talked to me about stuff. My older brother, my singular older brother again, the same brother that we crossed over on our missions together, he left and him and his wife left.

Tommy Johnson [03:12:33] And it was a big surprise because like a month prior him and I went out to Chili's. Shout, shout out to Chili's. And I specifically wanted to go out to dinner with them to ask because I knew that his, his wife had some questions and Madison had some questions. So I wanted to have like this little brother to brother conversation about like. So how are, how are you managing this? Like, what's, you know, just kind of, like, that.

Tommy Johnson [03:13:02] And we. We both, honestly, we came out with some answers like, okay, like, we can just kind of, I guess, talk about, like, you know, we can. We can bring up, like, spiritual experiences that we've shared together and. And things like that. And so I left being like, okay, like, that seems like, you know, a good answer. And just weeks later, we got, like, a text message that him and his wife were leaving. So I was like, wait, what? The opposite thing happened? What is going on?

Tommy Johnson [03:13:34] And so that. That was a big blow because again, if we're counting all the siblings, there's five of us. And so now three have left. It's me and my littlest brother, technically in the church at this point.

John Dehlin [03:13:49] Yeah. So, like, more child empty chairs than full chairs.

Tommy Johnson [03:13:53] Yeah. So if there's the seven chairs, three and a half are empty. And so, yeah, chairs are. Are pretty empty at this point. And so, you know, Madison comes to me, and I remember we are, I think, our most argument. Like, the arguments that led to the most just, you know, confusion or just no resolution were the ones where she would come to me and be like, okay, I learned this, this, this, and this. It's upsetting to me, and I'm leaving because of this. And I would. She was like. She would say, do you know about this? And I would say, yeah. And she's like, okay, but then why are you still in it?

Madison Johnson [03:14:38] We were reading the same material but coming to different conclusions. And that was so confusing to me.

Tommy Johnson [03:14:45] And I. And I think beyond. Because we honestly, we came to similar conclusions, which were like, this is bad. Yeah, I don't like this, Whatever. But the next step, what to do about it. Hers was like, okay, it's bad, so I'm going to leave. And I was like, yes, it's bad, but I'm staying. And. And so. And I understood her point of view. I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome in some respects, but I'm gonna choose to stay. And again, the whole. The big motivator was what else would I do? Which is, you know, Elder Ballard's question and that. Ultra Zion. Right.

John Dehlin [03:15:22] Where would you go?

Tommy Johnson [03:15:23] Those were my questions. I was like, I don't know what I would do, but I don't. And my main thing was like, I. I just don't want to die and be, like, wrong.

John Dehlin [03:15:33] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:15:33] Right. And so I was.

John Dehlin [03:15:35] Stakes are high.

Tommy Johnson [03:15:35] Yeah, they're huge stakes. So I'm like, okay. And I always told myself, I said, I will never leave if I ever am not Mormon anymore, it's because I've been excommunicated. It'll be always. It'll be someone else's decision.

John Dehlin [03:15:48] I relate to that.

Tommy Johnson [03:15:49] Yeah. And so I was like, that's what's going to happen. That'll be. Yeah, that's. I'm writing that future if that's what happens. So Madison tells me, like, she's done. Done with the church and for like a day, maybe less. We're like, okay, what does this mean for us as a couple? Are we going to remain married? Is this the end of our marriage? What does this looks like? What does this look like?

Samantha Shelley [03:16:22] How far into your marriage are you at this point?

Tommy Johnson [03:16:27] Coming up on two years. Yeah. And by the end of that conversation, it's, we'll make it work.

Madison Johnson [03:16:40] Yeah, we. I think that the only reason that we were able to have such a quick conversation and it wasn't like us debating, like, how are we gonna get our relationship to work with me being an ex Mormon and him being a Mormon was because when we were dating, we were. We made it.

Madison Johnson [03:17:03] I'm trying to figure out. I'm like, stumbling over my words. We made sure that we had common values. And it wasn't just, oh, we're both Mormon. Because I think at that point in our relationship or just in our lives, we realized, like, being Mormon does not mean the same thing for everyone.

Mixed-Faith Marriage and Navigating Belief Together

Madison Johnson [03:17:30] I was. I mean, Tommy was more nuanced and I was introduced to the. Just the word nuanced. And so we made it. We made sure that we were going to have the same values whether we were in the church or out of the church. At the time, it wasn't. We were thinking, oh, well, what if one of us leaves? It was just, this is important to us whether we're Mormon or not. So.

Madison Johnson [03:18:01] Yeah. And it was things like, do you think gay marriage is bad? And neither of us thought it was bad, or do you believe in God? Like, super, super baseline values that we thought that we needed to agree on in order to have a successful marriage.

Tommy Johnson [03:18:23] Yeah. And so, yeah, our, you know, our. Our marriage wasn't based, like you said, it wasn't just, oh, we're both, you know, us both being Mormon. Although, like, it definitely presented as like a, you know, as a big deal.

Tommy Johnson [03:18:40] It wasn't like the founding building block of our relationship. It's like pulling that didn't knock everything else down. There's other stuff where we had a strong foundation. And I also think, like, for me personally, just seeing my parents marriage, work, and at that point, just being a progressive Mormon, I found myself in Spaces where there were other mixed faith marriages that worked. And also this is just so funny and random, but it definitely made me think like this could work.

Tommy Johnson [03:19:10] Jimmer Fredette, the basketball player, I just was very aware that his dad was Mormon and his mom wasn't and I was like, and he's doing pretty fine and his parents are. I mean, I don't know him personally, but last time I saw a documentary about him, they were sitting next to each other. So that seemed positive. So I was like, they can do it. And so yeah, I just definitely had such a strong belief that mixed faith marriage could work that our conversation, like, what does this mean for us? Was quite short.

Madison Johnson [03:19:41] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:19:41] And edit it in a positive way. So.

John Dehlin [03:19:44] Okay. And yeah, if Jimmer can do it, anyone can do it. Right?

Tommy Johnson [03:19:48] That's totally. That's what I always say.

Samantha Shelley [03:19:49] What's that guy up to? I haven't had that name in years.

John Dehlin [03:19:51] He does, he has a tick tock channel where he like teaches people how to play basketball. But he was a star in China. He didn't make it in the NBA, but he became a star in China. China, professional basketball.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:02] Cool.

John Dehlin [03:20:03] I don't know if he's playing right now, but, but so you guys decided to go the mixed, mixed faith marriage route?

Madison Johnson [03:20:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:10] Yeah. Awesome. So how'd that go? Talk us through that.

Tommy Johnson [03:20:15] Yeah. So again, just context and circumstances. Church was all through or there, there are at least zoom options for church. Zoom. The, you know, the software and so, you know, being a believing member did not require me to have to go and you know, to a church building. I could be in bed or on the couch or wherever and you know, listen to talks.

Tommy Johnson [03:20:48] We also had just. We were about to move and as a mixed faith couple, we moved out of my parents to our own condo into a new ward. And so there weren't any like, oh, where's Madison at? Is she, you know, they.

Tommy Johnson [03:21:03] We hadn't gone yet because we were just tuning in through a link from an email. And so the, that part was very practical and made a lot of sense and was quite simple actually. But I again, I think our biggest conflict was, wasn't a differing of beliefs because we had. The irony was that we actually had near the same beliefs. It was again just this decision for me to stay and her decision to leave. Those are completely opposite decisions.

Tommy Johnson [03:21:40] And so we mutually decided early on in our mixed faith marriage that neither of us would try to convince the other person to do the other thing, that I wouldn't try to bring her back. And she Wouldn't try to get me to leave. And I think that's really important from the get go.

Tommy Johnson [03:21:58] We made that promise to each other and then honestly we avoided a lot of conversations because they always ended up with, well then how do you stay? And I'm like, I don't know. And then it just because I want to. And I, you know, I figured this out and you know, and that that

Madison Johnson [03:22:19] wasn't a good enough answer for me. And so it always turned into a fight and it was like, I think I remember we talked about cognitive dissonance one night and it just ended up in a huge argument. And so we were just very careful about what. Not in like a sense like, oh, we can't talk about these topics, but just needing to learn how to be sensitive about the other person's feelings about the topic. And yeah, so there were a few things that we just did not talk about at all as a couple for a long time.

John Dehlin [03:22:57] Some of the, some of the most common ones are like, well, you've already mentioned one. You know, one of you is like, how can you stay when the church does so much harm? Right. And that's, that's one tricky one.

Madison Johnson [03:23:08] Yeah, yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:23:10] Tithing was one because I continued to pay tithing.

John Dehlin [03:23:13] How can you pay money to a church that does so much harm?

Madison Johnson [03:23:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:16] And you would say,

Tommy Johnson [03:23:20] I'm trying to remember. I, I think I just, I don't even know.

Madison Johnson [03:23:24] I think it was just he wanted to be temple worthy. That's what he was taught his entire life. And that was his answer for me. And I, it did not make sense at the time. And mostly because we weren't attending the temple. Tommy wasn't attending the temple. So I was like, I just wanted to shake him and be like, why do you want a temple recommend so bad? And I had to come, I had to be really mature about it and just come to the conclusion that he will come up with an answer in his own time. And me pressuring him to come up with an answer is not going to help. It's going to make things worse. It's going to make our relationship tense. And so yeah, we just, there's some tense moments.

Tommy Johnson [03:24:07] But yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:09] Another common one is what do we know with the kids? Like if we have kids, are we going to raise them in the church? And the non believer would be like, no way in h. I'm raising my kids in this church. Did you guys talk about that one?

Tommy Johnson [03:24:20] We did. And the answer was we'll worry about that.

Madison Johnson [03:24:23] Yeah, we're not even Close to like trying to have kids right now. So we're like, whatever, keep that one on the back burner. We don't need to certified about that.

John Dehlin [03:24:33] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:24:33] And I definitely felt in that because we were about. We were a mixed faith marriage for, for a little bit. And I felt very privileged in that space to not have kids because we, you know, we would. Whether it was Marriage on a Tightrope, the Facebook group.

John Dehlin [03:24:47] Did you, did you join that?

Tommy Johnson [03:24:49] Yeah, so yeah, we joined the group. We actually did a podcast as guests with Alan. Include that. Okay. I know they've been on this show. They're awesome.

John Dehlin [03:24:59] Oh yeah. He's my other workout partner I've seen.

Tommy Johnson [03:25:02] So I'm Facebook. I've seen some photos. You guys are killing it. Maybe I need to join. I need some help. But yeah, so we, you know, just reached out for resources again. I felt like I could go to my parents and talk to them. But yeah, just being kid list. We didn't have that conversation about what will we do with the kids. That was. We'll worry about it. Let me get there.

Samantha Shelley [03:25:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:30] Was Marriage on a Tightrope a help? So the Marriage on a Tightrope is a podcast that was started by my friends Alan and Katie Mount. Alan's still, Katie's still in the church and is a believer, progressive believer. And then. And then Alan is no longer in the church. Alan Tick tocks. He has an amazing Tick Tock channel. Mount of a man, I think was one of his handles. I don't know what it is right now, but basically they started a podcast to help support people in mixed faith marriages. They do, they do workshops, they, they've done events and they've got this amazing Facebook group. So how was it helpful for you guys? And if so how.

Tommy Johnson [03:26:09] It was both. It was, it was, it was both helpful and not helpful in, in, in my particular experience because. Excuse me. Sometimes I would read experiences and stories that made the mixed faith marriage seem awesome and totally doable. Then other times I would read experiences that made a mixed faith marriage seem like it was impossible. And those really scared me. And I ended up leaving the group for a small amount of time because I would, I constantly.

Tommy Johnson [03:26:47] It must have just been that day. But there seemed to be a barrage of, you know, we, you know, I, my, my, you know, whichever my partner has, has been fine with this mixed faith marriage thing for years. But today they came up to me and they said, I can't do this anymore. I needed to. This needs to end.

Tommy Johnson [03:27:10] Let's get a divorce or like, we're getting a divorce or something. And I was just like, oh, no, Is this just how it all. Is this the only option? Really? Like, is this. You know, what it goes down to? Because all of a sudden, all these helpful, you know, successful faith, mixed faith marriages, to me, I was like, well, maybe they just haven't reached the point to when they inevitably get divorced. Maybe this is just happy time still, and divorce is just the only way.

Madison Johnson [03:27:38] It's looming in the distance.

Tommy Johnson [03:27:40] Yeah. And so I felt like. And again, I think this was just like. Like a day or a moment where I just feel like I was getting a ton of these. So I. I left the group for a bit because I was like, I don't want that to become my expectation. It was like 5, 10, 20, 40 years down the road. It's just like, all right, or it's, we're over.

John Dehlin [03:27:59] How about for you, Madison?

Madison Johnson [03:28:00] I never joined the group.

John Dehlin [03:28:01] Okay.

Madison Johnson [03:28:03] Mostly because Tommy would come to me and say, I saw this in the group, and now I'm worried about our marriage. And so I was like, well, if he's reading all these things in the. This group, I don't want. I don't want to be reading those things and getting those thoughts in my head. But, yeah, I just. Because I feel like what's different about our. Or was different about our mixed faith marriage was that we did have a lot of the same beliefs. We just weren't coming to the same conclusion. Whereas the stories that I was reading about other people, they had completely differing beliefs. And so it just. It wasn't super helpful for me. But, yeah, Okay.

Samantha Shelley [03:28:45] I guess I'm just kind of curious because you got married while both technically believing Mormons, Right. Did it ever. Did you ever wrestle with the fact that, like, oh, we chose to get married because we're Mormon, and especially for you, once you weren't, was it then just weird to reflect back on that or by that point, we just so established that.

Madison Johnson [03:29:06] I had that thought for a minute, but it wasn't. That wasn't a super. Yeah, that wasn't a huge thought that I had, mostly because we weren't super active most of our relationship because of COVID And so it was like, okay, well, we haven't been going to church this entire time. We haven't been attending the temple, and I don't know, Mormonism wasn't like, a huge bonding experience for us. Like, it wasn't like, oh, we both. We met on our missions and like.

John Dehlin [03:29:40] Like Katie and Allen.

Madison Johnson [03:29:41] Yeah. It wasn't like this huge core of our relationship, I feel like. And so having that break down. It did. Just because I think I had heard of so many people getting divorced because one of them's not Mormon and, and whatever. And they got married because they were both Mormon and that was just the expectation. We didn't have that. And so, yeah, I had the thought for a second, but it didn't really make sense for me to have that thought because that wasn't a bonding point in when we were dating, I think.

John Dehlin [03:30:16] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [03:30:17] Yeah, yeah. And I, I had the same thought too. And I purposely went there just to, to check it to be like, okay, did we just get married just because we were both Mormon? And that was like kind of, you know, to get married that quickly because of that. And I just wanted to kind of dissect it just to give it its. I thought it was a healthy place to go to, honestly, because I didn't want to, you know, just avoid it or whatever. And I came to the same quick conclusion of like, of no, you know, that wasn't the basis of our marriage. Yeah. So yeah, went there just to kind of see it, ask that question. Came to the same conclusion.

John Dehlin [03:31:01] I mean, Samantha, you ask a really important question just because for many who leave the church after, after getting married, it's like, I could have had fun in high school and college. I could have experimented in all sorts of different ways. I could have, I may not have married this person, but I was taught that whoever, you know, you marry anyone who's righteous and faithful, the marriage is going to work. But turns out marriage is harder than I thought and we're less compatible than I thought. And as long as we've got the gospel in common, then we can make it work. But if you don't have the gospel in common anymore, I don't know that I want to make it work.

John Dehlin [03:31:38] And there are a lot of marriages that don't survive a faith crisis. And then the church can point to those and say, see, self fulfilling prophecy. They leave the church, the marriage fails. Yeah, that's not fair. Right.

Madison Johnson [03:31:50] I definitely had not regrets about our marriage, but like, oh, I wish that I could have experienced other things. Not because we were married, but because I was a member of the church when I was younger. And so I didn't get to experience the typical American, you know. Yeah. Or like college life, you know, like I had a very conservative college life. I mean, I lived on a dry campus. Like, you know, you know, there's. They have chocolate milk parties, you know, like that's that's my college experience. And so once I left the Mormon church, I was like, oh, I wish that I could have had more experiences. But it was never I wish that I could have not married Tommy. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:32:39] Yay. Yeah,

Tommy Johnson [03:32:42] yeah, yeah. And so, so around this, this time I started making TikTok videos. And before I made my first like LDS centric one, I. We were, I remember a specific moment. We were still living at my parents house, we're in the basement and I just happened to be in the basement bathroom. And I thought to myself, you know, ever since like Covid happened, Tick Tock has blown up. And it's just, you know, everyone has it. I don't see anyone out there making like really specific LDS humorous satire stuff. I think I could jump into that and maybe have some success.

Tommy's Comedy Videos and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [03:33:23] Did you always like comedy? Because I didn't even ask what your hobbies were in high school, but yeah,

Tommy Johnson [03:33:28] so I've always liked laughing and making other people laugh. I don't know if like, if I were just to be like, yeah, I watched a bunch of stand up and all this kind of stuff growing up. That's, that's not particularly true. But I always like making people laugh in school or whatever group I'm in.

Tommy Johnson [03:33:46] Yeah, okay. And so I thought like I could maybe be that person in that space. I was like, this space is so much here. Like everyone I know just growing up in the church that people love a faithful, funny person or funny group like Studio C or something like that person.

Tommy Johnson [03:34:07] Those people exist, but I just don't see one on Tick tock right now. I think I could be that person. And this was a conscious thought that I had. I think I could be that person. But just knowing where I am with my own personal faith, this could maybe go a different route sometime down the line because I'm not here being like, yeah, and it's all true and I believe everything and let's make jokes. I'm like very close. I'm very progressive, nuanced, making jokes. And so I, you know, the, the first I made some couple like I made a couple like going on dates with RMS from that went to this country, this country.

Tommy Johnson [03:34:47] This country video videos. But the first Tick Tock video that I made that really caught attention was were ones titled what Mormons think Judgment Day will Be. And I and I poked direct fun and through satire kind of criticized a lot of LDS beliefs when it comes to Judgment Day.

Tommy Johnson [03:35:13] So just to kind of run through it, I made jokes about like, you know, tattoos are bad, but microblading your eyebrows is totally okay. And that coffee is off the table, but there's a. There's a soda shop in heaven or don't work on Sundays. That's against the rules. Unless you're a star football player promoting a religion, and then that's totally fine. Or just these little things that I. That I was coming to in a comedic sense, being like, this is silly, but it was jokey enough to be like, oh, let's just laugh about it. Not really face the, you know, the deeper. Whatever. Let's just laugh and have a good time with it.

John Dehlin [03:35:55] My orthodox Mormon brain conceptualizes that as being anti Mormon. Right.

Madison Johnson [03:36:01] Yeah, he definitely got a lot of comments about people being like, are you ex Mormon? And he was like, no, I'm. I'm an active Mormon. And yeah, there are a lot of.

John Dehlin [03:36:13] Because you're. You're highlighting hypocrisies in the church.

Tommy Johnson [03:36:17] Yeah. And. But the, the irony too was I got, I think, equally the amount of people saying, I'm ex Mormon, but I think this is really funny. And I'm currently Mormon, but I think this is really funny. Assuming that I was the other one.

John Dehlin [03:36:32] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:36:32] And for a while, I didn't tell people because, one, I just felt like it's none of their business. But two, I was just fascinated by, like, I'm getting both, like, criticized and applauded by both groups of people. But this is hilarious because. Because I can definitely see from both sides of, like, oh, seeing this be like, yeah, this person knows my culture, my jokes. This is one of us that's funny. And someone else being like, well, yeah, that's so silly. Who would ever believe that? And both people being like, oh, this is funny. This is great. And it was just such a funny space to be in for a while.

John Dehlin [03:37:09] Yeah. Okay.

Tommy Johnson [03:37:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:11] And did it start taking off? Did you start growing exponentially in your subscribers? Tick Tock.

Tommy Johnson [03:37:16] Yeah, so, yeah, so that, that, that first Judgment Day one, I saw the success of it. So the very next day I made a second one, and the next day I made a third one because I

John Dehlin [03:37:25] was like, say success, like, how many

Tommy Johnson [03:37:26] views it right now sits at like 900,000, 800,000 views.

John Dehlin [03:37:32] Tick tock. You can reach a million people with one 10 or 20 second video. It's unbelievable. It's like, worst thing ever for the church. Right.

Tommy Johnson [03:37:43] It does move fast and it knows where you are and it knows what you're thinking, I swear. But yeah, it does move quickly. And it's funny too, because again, you know, it's getting reshared by people. And particularly, like on Instagram, you can share it to your story and then add your own little comment to it. And people, again, it was like half and half of being like, look how silly Mormonism is. It's just like this and other people being like, like our culture so funny. Like, you know, and I'm at a place where honestly, I felt kind of not objective, but like, on both, I was like, this is both silly and funny, but dumb and whatever.

Tommy Johnson [03:38:24] Like, I just. I honestly felt like more of like a messenger of, like, hey, there's what's taught, like it or not. You know, do with it what you will. And I. So just for timeline sake, May 2021, my brother and his wife decide to leave. May slash June Madison decides to leave. July, I start making videos. So there's definitely a motivator from all of this stuff coming into my life where people that I love are leaving.

Tommy Johnson [03:39:00] What does that mean for me? What am I doing with my life? I don't know. I'm trying to figure things out. And outlet for me are these videos. That's really what the motivator was. Again, like I mentioned, I did think that there was an open space and maybe someone could capitalize on it, and I thought, maybe I'll do that. But it definitely was also just all this commotion going up here just onto a screen and kind of being comedic about it.

John Dehlin [03:39:25] Okay, okay. So that's just a year ago. So what happened between then and now? How did things advance for both of you?

Madison Johnson [03:39:35] I think this is your.

Tommy Johnson [03:39:38] My side of the story. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:39:41] How. How Tommy lost his faith went. Went from progressive Mormon tick tocker to no longer believing man. Okay.

Tommy Johnson [03:39:48] And I just want to start off too, because I would. I would get comments in my videos from, again, both active and former members that I. I found just, like, kind of unnecessary. And I. And I think we're all still trying to learn, like, online behavior, you know, manners, etiquette. Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes, again, at this point, I was pretty confident, at least on the surface level, that, you know, I know all the bad stuff, but I'm still here.

Tommy Johnson [03:40:28] And so people would be like, well, or they would just write, like, read the CES letter, send comment, and I would respond. I'd be like, I have kind of all snarky. Or they would be like, just leave. You are. You can see that it's weird. Just leave. And I would say, no, thanks, with like a little heart emoji. Again, all snarky. Or on the other end, be like, this is, you know, or. I just. I didn't.

Tommy Johnson [03:40:53] I didn't like all the comments telling me what to do. Honestly, I was like, I'm just trying to put this out here. And I. I have to admit, like, from the get go. And even, you know, sometimes today I'm. I can be pretty quick with like the block button. Just like slap it. Boom, boom, boom.

John Dehlin [03:41:11] Me too.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:12] And so even prior to me making these videos, just while I was just trying to figure stuff out on my own, I was seeing a lot of your stuff, and I hit block real quick.

John Dehlin [03:41:25] You blocked me, Tommy.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:26] I did, I did. I blocked.

John Dehlin [03:41:27] But I don't think I would come on and say mean things.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:30] Yeah, and you didn't. It was a preemptive block. I just didn't want to see your content on my. On my for you page. Because I was like, again.

John Dehlin [03:41:37] Oh, okay. It wasn't me sliding into your comments.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:40] No, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [03:41:41] It was my video showing up in your for you page.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:45] Yes. And. And. And this is going back.

John Dehlin [03:41:47] So you block me.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:48] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:49] And this. This is going back in time just a little bit where I was listening to the four fifths of the Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [03:41:53] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:41:54] So on one and one on app, I'm searching for your content on the other app. I don't want to see it. Not on my, like, with it just popping up. I want to be in control of when I see you. So I just block. Block.

John Dehlin [03:42:10] That's awesome. So I remember at one point, I'm like, someone's going, oh, check out this video. It's so funny. And I'm like,

Madison Johnson [03:42:16] where's.

John Dehlin [03:42:16] I can't find it. It's not. I'm like, that dude blocked me.

Tommy Johnson [03:42:20] I did. I did. And again, this was.

John Dehlin [03:42:23] It's fine.

Tommy Johnson [03:42:24] Yeah. And this was before I even made a single, you know, video about all this stuff. Just doing my own, trying to curate my own.

John Dehlin [03:42:35] I literally. What did I do? Did I say something? I did.

Tommy Johnson [03:42:39] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:42:40] Did you know Cara blocked herself on Twitter before we had ever. It seems to just be a thing you do, and you're like, I don't want to see it.

John Dehlin [03:42:46] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:42:47] Even if you've never engaged, it's funny.

John Dehlin [03:42:49] But I was wondering what I did.

Tommy Johnson [03:42:51] Yeah, well, absolutely nothing is what you did. So. So, yeah. So I, you know, making. Making these videos, I. A lot of it. Again, if you go back and you re. Watch a lot of them, I think you can see someone just struggling with their faith and trying to make sense of it because I am. All, all the jokes are satire type stuff and depending on what lens you're wearing, it's like that super faithful and funny or that super not faithful and rude or whatever. It might be kind of like what you were that you mentioned. Like, people get upset about, you know, satire, whatever you're talking about.

John Dehlin [03:43:37] But.

Tommy Johnson [03:43:38] So I'm making this content, but on the inside I'm, I'm struggling to, to keep my faith. And the, the big moment for me because I, I was so tied to and, and hearing you talk about it made me, I think, realize something about why being tumbleworthy was so important to me was because my experience was just at age 10, when I viewed porn for the first time, that was the first time I had to start getting back to being temple worthy. And every like, little thing I ever did in my life, from every thought to every action, was either making me closer to being temple worthy or not.

Tommy Johnson [03:44:29] Like, everything I did was so focused because for me, temple worthy equaled celestial kingdom worthy, which equaled no empty chairs, which equaled family forever. Like, end goal. Like every little thing I did played some role in getting me further away or closer to happy heaven or whatever, families forever.

Tommy Johnson [03:44:51] And so I just, I, I didn't know any other way to operate. So on one part, I'm seeing all this stuff that the church is doing and that the church teaches that I just either don't like or just ultimately disagree with.

Tommy Johnson [03:45:04] But the need to be temple worthy just in case was so strong, but that finally fell and collapsed just this past July. So just a couple months ago, watching Mormon no more on YouTube or on Hulu, rather. Sorry, on Hulu.

John Dehlin [03:45:25] And this is for those who haven't seen it, it's a documentary. Well, we had Sal and Lena on Mormon Stories. It's basically two Mormon women who marry men, have lots of kids, then in la, they fall in love, divorce, end up getting divorced from their husbands and have now married each other and they did a Hulu documentary about them. So, so that's, that's the documentary you're talking about?

Tommy Johnson [03:45:53] Yeah. And you know, and it follows their, you know, it tells their story. Like you, you know, you just explained and, and ultimately shows them getting married. And, and I know, and I think timing is just a big thing and just being prepared for different life events. And for me, for whatever reason, watching that show and seeing them fall in love and, and get married was the final straw or whatever you want to say, for me to be like, you know, I just, I, you know, I've pulled my Support in so many ways of the church. I. I want to pull all of it. And I had never even thought that in my life. You know, while I'm watching the documentary, for the first time in my life, I had the thought in my head, I think I'm done with the church.

Madison Johnson [03:46:50] And.

Tommy Johnson [03:46:51] And I just start spiraling silently. Like, Madison and I are sitting on the couch, we're watching it, and I'm just like, oh, man, I've never thought that before. And just again, just the thought of it since I was anxious, I was scared. And I was really scared to tell Madison, which, you know, however long we're into this episode sounds probably silly because she's already left. She's been gone for a year. But I was still just scared, I think, to say it out loud. So I slept on it. I told myself, I'll sleep on it. Maybe, maybe it's just too late at night. And I woke up still pretty committed to leaving.

Tommy Johnson [03:47:30] I remember we were sitting down on the couch, still scared. I put a pillow in between us. I said, this has nothing to do with you. This is all me. And I know I'm being weird, but I want to tell you something. And I put a pillow in between us. I held it up, and I was like, I think I'm done with the church. And she was like, okay.

Tommy Johnson [03:47:49] And this. And this next thing that she said to me proves to I, Madison's the best. Because she said, she said, okay. You come to that conclusion, if you ever decide that you want to go back, that's up to you. You don't have to stay, like, out wherever you're at, because we've had these conversations where I'm like, do I want to leave? I don't know. I don't know. So she understood that, like, this could, you know, maybe tomorrow I'll be like, actually, no. But she made it very clear. She said, you know, whatever you do, I just want you to be happy and make that decision.

Tommy Johnson [03:48:28] And I if knowing myself, that would have been the best time just to dunk on me and be like, told you so. It's been a year. I knew all this.

John Dehlin [03:48:38] Respect the football.

Tommy Johnson [03:48:39] Yeah. Just totally just dance around me and been like, finally or said something like, I've been wanting this or whatever. And those feelings may have existed and we've talked about it a little bit.

Madison Johnson [03:48:49] They. They definitely did. I was.

John Dehlin [03:48:51] How was it from your perspective?

Madison Johnson [03:48:52] So.

John Dehlin [03:48:53] Because sometimes the. The non believing member of a mixed faith marriage, this is like the day they've been dreaming of right yeah.

Madison Johnson [03:49:01] So I do have to say I'm very proud of my response because those were not the feelings that I was having. So Tommy's brother and sister, we already covered. They left about a month before I did, but they left together. And watching them go through a faith crisis together as a married couple, I felt so jealous because they were being able to go and experience all these things and they just, they had a built in support system.

Madison Johnson [03:49:35] And I came home and I. Tommy was very supportive, but to a certain degree it wasn't like, oh, yeah, you want to try alcohol? Let's go try alcohol together so that, you know, we can experience this new thing together. Whereas his brother and sister were doing that. And I just, yeah, I was really jealous. And so when Tommy said that he was ready to be done, I, I was happy.

Madison Johnson [03:50:06] But what was more important was that he was making a decision that he was confident in and was going to bring him happiness. And it wasn't just, oh, great, now we can go drink alcohol together. You know, even though I wanted to experience new life things together and that didn't happen because we did leave at different times, it was still important for me to ensure that he came to the conclusion on his own and I wasn't pressuring him to do it. So everything I have ever said about him leaving the church was, I, I treaded very lightly because I didn't want him to feel pressured into making a decision he wasn't ready to make.

Samantha Shelley [03:50:52] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:50:55] Nice.

Tommy Johnson [03:50:55] Yeah, she's awesome.

John Dehlin [03:50:56] Yeah. So you were cautiously happy for him, but also wanting to be affirming.

Madison Johnson [03:51:04] Yes. And also because I could see that the church was bringing him a lot of pain and it, the church wasn't a happy thing for him closer to the end. And it just was a lot. He just had a lot of feelings about it that weren't good feelings. And so I was finally like, awesome. You can let this go. You can be happy. Even though, like, it's not always rainbows and butterflies now that we're both out. But it's much. I mean, I don't want to speak for you if you want to touch on this. But I finally felt like, okay, he can finally be happy because he no longer has this thing looming over his head. So.

Tommy Johnson [03:51:50] Yeah, yeah. And I know that there was a, there was a mixture after I had left it, you know, made that decision to leave. Like I mentioned, there was that spiraling, all those feelings, but there was also a big weight that was kind of lifted off my chest that I felt there, there was A. There was an internal conflict, honestly, that started all the way back October 2018, when my sister came out to me. That was just inside me at all times of like, I believe this way, but the church teaches this way. And there's just this kind of. I just picture as like a boxing match just going on and it was draining.

Life After Mormonism and Family Relationships

Tommy Johnson [03:52:39] And that was the cause of what you were saying, of a lot of that pain was because I just, I was ultimately, I just wanted to do the right thing. And I felt like I had two different right things and they were competing against each other and I just wanted to do one. So I ultimately was like, I'm either going to just decide right now to be Mormon forever and just exist in this space forever, or leave for my sake. And so I ended up deciding to leave.

John Dehlin [03:53:07] And that was what month of this year?

Tommy Johnson [03:53:08] July.

John Dehlin [03:53:10] Okay, now here's, here's a. Here's something that I've noticed a lot. I think about Katie Mount in this, you know, or Dan Witherspoon before, or Gina Colvin. When you've become a social media Persona within a religious context, if you're known as the funny, faithful Mormon guy on TikTok, or if you're known as the believing spouse on Marriage on a Tightrope, or if you're known as John Dehlin, the guy who created a, you know, stale the ass. Well, whatever it is you like, even if you start having a major shift, then you're like, whoa. But if the stakes are higher, if I leave. Or a blogger, a faithful blogger, Samantha.

John Dehlin [03:53:56] Right. Because if I leave, it's not just me. It's all these people that were like, liking my stuff. They were vibing with me. Maybe I was even helping them find a way to stay. And that can, I don't know, maybe it can feel like pressure. Maybe it can make you feel like you're kind of locked in. Maybe it can make you feel like you're afraid to disappoint people. How was it for you?

Tommy Johnson [03:54:19] Yeah, so for me, my, my favorite things, hearing from people that I would meet or they would just message me, they were the thoughts of my siblings and I are mixed faith. Some have left, some have stayed. And it's really hard for us to talk about church subjects or just the church in general. But we share your stuff with each other and we both laugh and that's like open doors to great conversations or just there were scenarios where there was a mixed faith relationship, whether that was husband and wife, kids and parents or whatever it was. But people were telling me that they're using my content as a believing member to build that bridge with someone that they didn't have a great relationship with.

Tommy Johnson [03:55:15] And so when I made this decision to leave, my first thought, when in terms of just content, excuse me, or just the creator end of things, I thought, I think that is going to come to an end because I'm no longer faithful. So why, you know, why would any faithful person want to see this ex Mormon talking about Mormon stuff?

Tommy Johnson [03:55:41] That's my first thought. My second thought was, you know, the disappointment because I, you know, I had made friends kind of in the progressive Mormon world and realm, so we could just talk about this stuff, but now just another one that bites the dust of the progressive to ex Mormon trail and, or whatever. So I was like, okay, so I'll probably lose them.

John Dehlin [03:56:04] Because that's the thing. Because you want. My dad once told me, if you put a cold potato in with a bunch of hot potatoes, eventually, you know. No, what is it? If you put a hot potato amidst a bunch of cold potatoes, eventually the hot potato is going to become cold. And a progressive Mormon oftentimes may not want to hang around an ex progressive Mormon because it's maybe not good for the faith they're trying to cling to.

Tommy Johnson [03:56:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:56:32] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [03:56:33] So I thought all those friendships and connections were going to be gone. And I just, and I, I had a huge fear that if I told people then I would lose every follower again. That's where my mind goes sometimes.

John Dehlin [03:56:46] And, and so, I mean, for some people, they could be like, well, that's superficial. Oh, you lose your, your social media followers. That's dumb. Like, they might say that.

Tommy Johnson [03:56:55] Yeah, but, which I understand, you know, but on the other end, and I've been able to have some awesome conversations with people that I've never had or never probably would have had. I also like doing it and having followers makes that a reality, you know, and so, you know, I get the, you know, the superficial idea, but I was just, I just, I try to, I, I really, I, I wanted to be proven wrong that it didn't matter what my church membership was, that like, if I announced I was leaving that people would still like the content. That didn't end up being the case.

John Dehlin [03:57:44] Oh, what happened?

Tommy Johnson [03:57:45] So, so I decided, honestly, just kind of, because I'm such a, for this, I was such a planner. Like, I wrote out like, what I was going to say about, like, why I'm leaving and all this stuff. And then I decided just to do it on a whim. Like one person I Hosted like a little ask me whatever kind of thing. Someone asked if I was still active, and I just, I was like, you know what? I'm just doing this right now. I'm just going to tell everyone that I've left. And it was like maybe two days before I decided to leave.

John Dehlin [03:58:13] After, after, after.

Tommy Johnson [03:58:14] Yeah, sorry. And so I, I said that and just, I just honestly watch like the followers immediately just kind of start going down.

John Dehlin [03:58:29] Like, literally your. Your follower subscriber count starts to decrease.

Tommy Johnson [03:58:35] Yeah, like that, that night. But I'm, you know, I didn't know this at first, but at that same time, because I was talking to Madison, I told her I think everyone is going to unfollow. If I wake up tomorrow and I have half of them, I will be happy. That was my mindset.

Tommy Johnson [03:58:52] I. And so, yeah, we're talking about this without talking to me about it prior. Madison went to the Faith Meetup, Faith Journeys Journey Meetup Facebook group and just told him like, hey, I've seen some of Tommy's videos shared in here, so I know that some of you know him.

Tommy Johnson [03:59:12] He's decided to leave. He's spooked about what the response is going to be. So if you feel so inclined to say something or go over there or whatever, let him know. And so, like, for a few minutes, I'm seeing this stuff decrease.

Tommy Johnson [03:59:29] The flip side happens and I'm getting all these messages, honestly, because again, I didn't know from random women. I'm like, okay, where did they, you know, what's going on? Of just being like, like, you're awesome. We support you, we're happy that you are finding happiness. Your journey is yours, all this stuff. And honestly, a lot of them started following. So by the next day, I had more followers than I did prior. And then Madison told me she's like this. So, you know, like, I did tell. And I was like, okay, that makes a lot more sense.

John Dehlin [03:59:59] I have to give a shout out to my friends Chelsea and Nick Homer. We've had them on Mormon stories. But the Faith Journeys Meetup group on Facebook, what's it at? 8, 000.

Madison Johnson [04:00:08] Yeah, I think it's at. I think it might be at 9,000 now.

John Dehlin [04:00:10] 9,000? Yeah, yeah, 9, 000. Basically progressive, but mostly post Mormon women. Monthly activities supporting each other. If you are a post Mormon woman, especially if you're living along the Wasatch front. Yeah, but maybe not even limited to that. Go to Facebook and join Faith Journey Meetups. It's a great group and Nick and Chelsea love you guys. Okay.

Tommy Johnson [04:00:33] And I do just want to add in there too. I think that they specifically say like women and non binary individuals. And I, and I know that because I was like, oh, I want to join this group. And I, you know, I don't fit either.

Madison Johnson [04:00:46] It's a super, it's a super cool group.

Tommy Johnson [04:00:48] And I was jealous of Madison.

Madison Johnson [04:00:50] Yeah, I talk about the group literally all the time. And it's been, it's been so helpful not only in, because I joined it before I left. Oh, I just hit the microphone and it was very instrumental in helping me realize that you can be happy outside of the church. Because at the time there was 4, 000 people in the group and I was like, I'm not ever gonna be happy again. Cool. And then I joined this group and there's 4, 000 women who are having hard things in life, but they're able to say, but this happened and this happened and I'm so happy and I'm experiencing all these new things and it's. Yeah, it's been really great. So.

Tommy Johnson [04:01:35] Yeah, and so, yeah, so, and, and so since then, in the, in the months from July till now, just because of how social media works, people are still learning for the first time that I've left just, you know, days ago from today or whatever. And I, you know, I also get comments of just leave it alone, you left, blah, blah, blah, unoriginal. If you're gonna be mean or a

John Dehlin [04:02:00] troll, please be original.

Tommy Johnson [04:02:01] Exactly. Put some creative juices in. But it is what it is. I mean, I, I understand. I, like, I had those same thoughts, you know, not too long ago, like, just leave it alone. If you can't talk, you know, if you're, if you don't believe in it, just whatever. But you know, I, I've, I've landed in a place where, yeah, I think most people know and I still make jokes, whatever, and I still have fun. But yeah, I was very, very, very scared to tell people to, to just to see, you know, their reactions and whatever. And I felt a little silly, honestly. Like, you know, these strangers, I don't know them, but it still mattered to me.

Madison Johnson [04:02:45] And I think there was another layer too. We were starting to try to monetize Tommy's social media accounts. And so there was not only fear of rejection, but also maybe this is a full time job isn't going to work out because you're going to tell people that you left the church and lose your following.

Tommy Johnson [04:03:05] True. Yeah. I, I had been, you know, reached out to, by Some people or just had conversations with people where it was clear that if I stayed faithful or at least presenting as faithful, there probably would have been some perks to it. And I can't lie, I did consider that because I had honestly been kind of doing that for a while. So I was like, what's another year or two of self hatred? Just kidding. But, you know, like, you know, if I can do it for a little bit more, then. Because honestly, the truth is, like, it was pretty positive. Like, I was in a really good spot. I was getting, you know, invited to things or whatever, and I was like, this is awesome.

John Dehlin [04:03:49] Because at some point, if you're like Al Caraway. Is that her name? Like, if you can. Or Time Ansfield. And this isn't a calling anyone out in a negative way, but if you can position yourself as like a social media influencer who kind of knows all the problems but stays anyway. There's desert book deals. You can be emceeing things. You can be invited to the red carpet parties of movie premieres. Like, you can kind of. Did I say desert book deals? Like, you can slip into something that can actually be a living. Right. Do that for a living. But I think that's what I'll carry does. I think.

Madison Johnson [04:04:28] Yeah, she writes books for Desert Books

John Dehlin [04:04:31] and goes around the country touring. And I guess Terrell and Fiona Givens are another version of this. And I'm not, again, criticizing them because I'm becoming. I'm. I'm. I've had a rebirth in terms of my feelings towards progressive Mormons. But, yeah, they've. How many book deals have they had with Deseret Book now? And. And they're flown all over the world to give firesides. And so. And that's, again, nothing wrong with that. But, you know, you. You kind of have to say goodbye to that.

Madison Johnson [04:05:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:01] If you decide not to go that route.

Tommy Johnson [04:05:03] Yeah. Yeah. And it was at a point where, like, Madison was saying some of those things were just starting to materialize.

John Dehlin [04:05:10] You were getting offers or there were

Tommy Johnson [04:05:13] talks about stuff, which was just exciting because again, I had started this in. I mean, I film all these videos, like in our car or our bedroom or whatever. So it's so small production, so easy, so simple. So to see that turn into something that could produce anything, I was excited about. But ultimately, and this is just the honest truth, I just, I had to stay true to my integrity and just, you know, I was done just associating with the church in any way. So I just, I just was like, I can't do that. Like, that seems like a. Like a. A fantasy to be like, oh, I'll just kind of stay in the middle or whatever. At that point, it was just time for me, I felt just to leave.

John Dehlin [04:05:57] Yeah. Yeah. Well, does that take us to today? Yeah.

Madison Johnson [04:06:04] Yeah, I think so.

Tommy Johnson [04:06:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:06:07] So. So I have at least two questions. And Samantha, you may have a couple, but mine are number one. I want to hear from you both. Are you. Do you feel like. Like faith crisis can be traumatizing. It can feel like you're tumbling. It can feel like a disaster. The dark night of the soul or whatever. And then there's a question of, can you be happy and healthy outside of it? Where will you go? So where have you gone? And are either of you or both of you healthier and happier or not? Or is it too early to say? And we'll have. We'll have Madison go first.

Madison Johnson [04:06:43] Perfect. Yeah. I definitely think at the beginning of my faith crisis, I was bawling my eyes out every day. I remember coming. We were on vacation in Portland, and we were with Tommy's siblings, and I did not want to do anything. I had never been to Portland, but I was just like, I'm going through all these things. And his brother and sister, sister in law, were talking about them leaving the church.

Madison Johnson [04:07:18] And I just did not want to be around those conversations, like on our Portland trip, because I was like, I'm going to start crying if I. If I hear anything about the church, I'm just going to start bawling. Whether it's good or bad, I'm just going to cry my eyes out. And so that definitely felt like a big, deep, dark hole that I was never gonna get out of.

Madison Johnson [04:07:39] But I think just with time and allowing myself to have those emotions and not be ashamed that I'm hap. That I'm going through a faith crisis was super important. And I am now. I'm very happy now and healthier, and I have healthier coping mechanisms. And I don't feel dependent on anything. Like, when I was a part of the church, I felt dependent on the church. I felt like I couldn't do anything unless I consulted my bishop or read if I could do it in the Book of Mormon, you know, and now I feel like I can make decisions for myself, and I have so much more confidence in myself now that I am no longer a member. And, yeah, I'm much happier now.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:28] So.

John Dehlin [04:08:28] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [04:08:31] Yeah. To answer the first question about if a faith crisis can be, you know, traumatizing, I would say Absolutely. For me, it made me question everything. Not just is coffee okay or not? But like, is God real or not? It went down to everything I believed religiously, which in turn affected everything in my life because I viewed every action as something toward God or not.

Tommy Johnson [04:09:07] And so going through a faith crisis, I'm very grateful. Like I mentioned, out of my family, I, you know, fourth or fifth out of seven to go through this. I. I feel a lot of. I. I feel for the people who are first. I don't know how that feels. And I can't imagine, you know, you know, saying that to your faithful family. Be like, I don't believe or whatnot.

Tommy Johnson [04:09:38] And so I, I'm very grateful that I had not just siblings, but also a parent I could go to and both parents I want to. You know, my dad's active and believing and awesome with all this stuff too. I just want to mention that as well, a great familial culture of, you are great as you are, we love you as you are, that exists in our home.

Tommy Johnson [04:10:06] And so, yeah, I, I definitely. There was the dark night of the soul. Felt like I was in that for a very long time. It was a long night and very dark and just didn't really know where to go.

Tommy Johnson [04:10:24] Since I decided to leave, I've felt that light, some light come back. It's not all back, you know, it's, you know, you don't decide to leave and life is just like you said, rainbows and butterflies. Just everything's answered.

Tommy Johnson [04:10:44] Questions I always had answered now don't have answers to them. Like, where do we go after this life? I had a perfect answer. One of these three kingdoms. Now I don't know. So there's, you know, there's stuff where there are some questions that were answered that are now unanswered, and that whole journey is one of its own.

Tommy Johnson [04:11:04] But overall, like I mentioned, kind of that internal conflict and that battle is gone, and I'm so happy that it is gone. I'm in a place right now where I still consider myself religious in some capacity, and I'm working through all that.

Tommy Johnson [04:11:25] But it's great to come to conclusions myself and search for things and really feel like I have the whole permission to search, not search, and then this is the answer that you'll get, or it's wrong and from Satan. It's a true search of, like, discover what you know feels right for you and true to you.

Tommy Johnson [04:11:47] So, yeah, like you mentioned, or like, well, yeah, the time has been short since I decided to leave, but in that short amount of time, that constant internal conflict has disappeared, which is great for all aspects of my life.

Tommy Johnson [04:12:02] And I'm feeling what was kind of nervous and anxious about the future. I'm feeling excited. Yeah. And just anticipate a lot of learning and discovery and, yeah, I'm looking forward to the future with excitement.

John Dehlin [04:12:19] You're. So you say the body count. There's five. There's five empty. Five out of seven empty chairs in your family now. Right. So five empty chairs. When you started with no empty chairs, and that was like a family mantra. I'm curious. Well, number one, I feel a little bit sad for your dad. Like, what would it be to be a believing dad where his wife and four of his five children have left, and now it's sad heaven for your dad. But, you know, I'm wondering if. If your parents have ever thought to pull the whole family together and say, hey, you know, that no empty chairs thing, we're taking that out of the family mission statement. We're killing no empty chairs. And now it's just love the moment or everyone's. Everyone's together or whatever. I don't know what the replace mantra would be, but I'm wondering if that conversation ever happened.

Tommy Johnson [04:13:17] Yes. So two things. One, I. I also. When I decided to leave, my. One of my first thoughts was, I really don't want to tell my dad because I think it's gonna make him sad. And I don't know that answer if it made, you know, made him sad or not. But I made a very conscious decision to talk with him first before I, you know, told everyone else. We had a conversation about it. But, yeah, I empathize with him because for a while, I, you know, was one of the three believing people or in some respect. And so, yeah, we would have conversations about being the believers of the family, and not in, like, a pompous way, but that's just kind of where we are with the whole no empty chairs thing. It's just interesting that you bring that up, because we had that conversation just a couple days ago.

John Dehlin [04:14:15] What.

Tommy Johnson [04:14:17] As a family, as a good chunk of the family, those who have left, my mom reached out and asked us how we feel about that phrase.

John Dehlin [04:14:26] Yeah.

Tommy Johnson [04:14:28] And somewhere along the lines, especially when my sister came out for me, I was either forced to either just kind of throw that away or reframe it. And it's a saying where it's spirit. I really enjoy the whole idea of just being together. And so I decided to reframe it.

Tommy Johnson [04:14:54] It's no longer no Empty chairs, celestial kingdom, top tier, family forever. Or that idea. But that is a family here on Earth. All of you know, this is all we know will for sure happen. Taking this opportunity to live here with a whole no empty chairs mindset of we're all welcome. We're all. We're Johnson. We are happy and proud to be in this family. We all love each other.

Tommy Johnson [04:15:23] There's. There's no closed doors. There's no empty chairs in that respect. So I know some of my siblings, again, in this conversation, felt differently, and I understand that. But for myself, that's kind of how I reframed it to be a positive. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:43] Boom. I love that. No empty chairs in our family right now. In the here and now, there are no empty chairs. We want everyone to feel loved and accepted, regardless. What a great reframe. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [04:15:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:59] Do you have a. Do you have any questions or, you know, comments you wanted to make just as we're kind of wrapping up, kind of putting you on the spot?

Samantha Shelley [04:16:06] No, not really.

John Dehlin [04:16:07] All right.

Tommy Johnson [04:16:08] All right.

John Dehlin [04:16:10] Well, what a beautiful story and what an uplifting story.

Tommy Johnson [04:16:14] Thank you. Yeah, it, you know, we got there eventually.

Madison Johnson [04:16:18] Eventually.

John Dehlin [04:16:19] Yeah. There's no right answer for some people. Staying works and that's okay, too.

Tommy Johnson [04:16:23] True. True. But, yeah, it's. You know, we just celebrated our. Our third year marriage anniversary not too long ago, and it was just an opportunity to look back on the last three years to see how it's all kind of changed and where we're at now and just celebrate that and be happy with where we are.

John Dehlin [04:16:43] Love it. All right, well, if people want to follow either of you or reach out any. Any final things you want to share, I would love to double your. Your audience. And Madison, I want to help you do whatever you want to do in your life, so. And the floor is yours to self promote, to shill for yourselves.

Where to Find Tommy and Madison Online

Tommy Johnson [04:17:06] Yeah. So, yeah, just on social media, I'm continuing to make. Make videos and just have fun. It's at the Tomsters ttrs.

John Dehlin [04:17:16] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [04:17:16] Just a fun little name I made up in high school and it's stuck now.

John Dehlin [04:17:21] Do you have a dream of, like, becoming a comedian someday or.

Tommy Johnson [04:17:25] I don't know right now? I mean, like I said, I'm trying to figure out a lot of stuff right now, so that'd be awesome. I would love to make people laugh for a living.

John Dehlin [04:17:34] Have you done any collabs with. With. With Dan Ban? Bam.

Tommy Johnson [04:17:38] Not. Not officially.

John Dehlin [04:17:40] We need some collabs, right, Sam?

Samantha Shelley [04:17:41] Yeah. Can I come to that one?

Tommy Johnson [04:17:43] Yeah, we should all get Together and just have fun. But, yeah, you know, let's all just be one big happy collaborating family hype house. I love you. There we go.

John Dehlin [04:17:56] Okay.

Tommy Johnson [04:17:57] Yeah, that's it for me.

John Dehlin [04:17:58] How about you?

Madison Johnson [04:18:00] I post a lot of pictures of my dog, instagram george@madison.ashley a s h l e e. So if you want to see George, follow me. Don't follow Tommy. He never posts pictures of George.

Samantha Shelley [04:18:15] So useless.

Tommy Johnson [04:18:16] All right, yeah, that is my bad. That's. That's the. That's the one takeaway from today. Post more George.

Samantha Shelley [04:18:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:18:23] Okay. All right. All right, well, this. I know so many people are gonna love this episode and they're gonna be glad we did it. It. So thank you for your courage to come out and tell your story, your Mormon story. Thank you.

Madison Johnson [04:18:35] Thank you for having us.

Tommy Johnson [04:18:37] Awesome.

John Dehlin [04:18:37] Keep up the good work. And will you unblock me?

Tommy Johnson [04:18:39] I. I did.

Madison Johnson [04:18:41] Yes, yes, before we came here. He's in the car. Gonna unblock.

Tommy Johnson [04:18:44] Yeah, the moment. Yeah, the moment before we stopped in. No, it was a couple weeks ago. Then we talked. But yes, you are officially unblocked.

John Dehlin [04:18:50] Oh, thank you. I'm relieved. I can enjoy your. Your comments.

Tommy Johnson [04:18:54] Yeah. There you go.

John Dehlin [04:18:56] All right. And Samantha, I love plugging you because you do great work. So Zelf on the Shelf is an amazing YouTube channel. They also have a Tick Tock and Instagram channel. They've got a Patreon. So support Zelf on the Shelf. And also, Samantha, you are a life coach who helps people in life transitions in finding health and happiness. And do you mind plugging your website really quick for me?

Tommy Johnson [04:19:25] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:19:25] SamanthaShellicoaching.com Shelley is E Y. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:19:29] All right. And we remind me to make sure to include that in the show notes as well.

Madison Johnson [04:19:33] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:19:33] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [04:19:34] Yeah, of course. Thanks for being my co pilot for today. I. Yeah, it's always great to have you when you can come, and really good.

Samantha Shelley [04:19:41] You two are lovely people. I've really enjoyed listening to you both.

Tommy Johnson [04:19:45] Well, thank you very much.

John Dehlin [04:19:47] All right, thanks, guys. And thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. It's been a pleasure. We love and require support as well to keep all this going. We pay Samantha. We pay all our staff and try to do it as generously as we can. So if you are a monthly donor or a donor. Thank you. If you're not. We're always losing donors. We lost. Lost three donors this morning and we always need to replace the donors we lose. So if you want to become a monthly supporter and support content like this, you can go to MormonStories.org click on the donate button at the top right of the page.

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John Dehlin [04:21:21] We want to hear about it and other ideas as well. So thanks for your support. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, love each other, have more comedy and fun in your life. Enjoy the life you have because it's the only one you know you have for sure. And we'll see you all again on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care.

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