Introduction to Title IX and Religious Exemptions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 5, 2021 and today we have an important episode for you all and I'm going to read a little bit from the Description.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Since Title 9 passed in 1972 to prevent sex discrimination under any education program receiving federal financial assistance, the religious exemption clause has gone virtually unchallenged. For decades, the Department of Education has granted Title IX exemptions allowing dozens of religious colleges like Brigham Young University, BYU Idaho and Hawaii and others like it, including Liberty University, et cetera, to discriminate based on sex, gender identity and sexual orientation, even though either these universities or students from these universities receive millions of taxpayer dollars every single year.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Today we are going to be joined by attorney Paul Southwick, Chandler Horning, I believe, a former student of Brigham Young University, Idaho, I believe, and Luke Wilson from Liberty University. And we are going to be talking today about a groundbreaking class action lawsuit filed against the U.S. department of Education.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Chandler and Luke are among 33 former and current students from different federally funded religious colleges who have been harmed by these discriminatory practices. The lawsuit argues that the Title IX religious exemptions as applied to sexual and gender minority students is unconstitutional and, and that the department must enforce the protections of Title IX at all taxpayer funded educational institutions, including at those institutions that discriminate and cause harm on the basis of sincerely held religious beliefs. So that is what we're here to talk about. And as I mentioned as we begun, we are joined, in addition to being joined by Luke and Chandler, former students at some of these religious universities, we we're joined by my sidekick, Gerardo Sumano, who he himself is a former student at BYU Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Gerardo is also responsible for the wonderful cinematography and lighting that that you guys have seen here on Mormon Stories. But without any further ado, we also want to just welcome Paul Carlos Southwick, who is, I believe, the lead attorney on this case. So let's begin with Paul. Paul, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Paul Southwick [00:02:53] Thanks for having me, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] And Paul, because you have to leave early, what we're going to do is, you know, Luke and Chandler, we want you to stay on the line. Gerardo, you're going to be co interviewing with me. So Gerardo, we want you to jump in at any time with questions or comments. But Paul, we're going to focus on you for these first 20, 25 minutes just because, you know, we want to make use of the time while you're here. Is that okay?

Paul Southwick [00:03:18] Sure, that's fine.

Guest Background and the Religious Exemption Accountability Project

John Dehlin [00:03:19] All Right. So why don't you give us a quick background of you before we jump into the case? Is that okay?

Paul Southwick [00:03:27] Yeah, that's great. First of all, did you pick us because we all have beards?

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Yes, absolutely.

Paul Southwick [00:03:35] Well, thanks again. My name's Paul Southwick. I am the director of the Religious Exemption Accountability Project.

Chandler Horning [00:03:40] Was.

Paul Southwick [00:03:41] Which is affiliated with the nonprofit Soulforce. I'm the head attorney on this case, and I've been working on this case for about six months. We recently filed, though, last week, and we're bringing constitutional claims against the U.S. department of Education for exactly as you said, violations that are occasioned by the religious exemption to Title nine.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] All right, that's. That's great. That's brilliant. What type of attorney? Tell us just a tiny bit about your practice as an attorney prior to this case, if you can. Sure.

Paul Southwick [00:04:17] So I used to be at a big corporate law firm. I was there for about 10 years, but while I was there, I took on a lot of pro bono cases in this area of LGBT discrimination by taxpayer funded religious institutions. And so what I noticed is over the years, the discrimination that these young people were experiencing was actually getting worse, not better. So while society was becoming a lot more accepting, and while the law was recognizing marriage equality and employment rights under the Supreme Court's Bostock opinion, we were seeing schools like BYU and Liberty doubling down on their discrimination. And that's why something needed to be done on a more.

Paul Southwick [00:04:59] A large scale, with a more large scale effort. Myself, I was a Chandler. I was a Luke when I was in college. I went to a small private Christian college in the early 2000s and was sent to conversion therapy after coming out as struggling with what we called the sin of same sex attraction.

Paul Southwick [00:05:23] My campus pastor said that my struggle and my battle is with Satan and that I could overcome it with the help of conversion therapy, which of course did not work.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] I mean, it sounds like you grew up Mormon. Gay and Mormon.

Paul Southwick [00:05:36] Basically gay and Mormon, but evangelical. In Oregon.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] In Oregon. Okay. All right, so why don't we. Why don't, if you don't mind, tell us what is title nine and then what is the religious exemption clause? Just give us kind of a brief history lesson of that and then maybe talk about just some of the really important high points, maybe even related to race. That sort of set the background for this discussion as it relates to the LGBT kind of concerns, if that makes sense.

Paul Southwick [00:06:09] Sure, happy to do that. So Title 9, when most people hear Title 9, they think of athletics, they think of sports equity for women, and that actually has resonance with me and my family. My mother was the first woman to get an athletic scholarship under title 9 in the state of Oregon. She was a gymnast, an all American gymnast. And so it's kind of funny, you fast forward 40 years, and now I'm representing students enforcing Title IX with respect to sexual orientation and gender identity. So while the genesis was in athletics and equality for women, Title IX really applies to every and all aspect of a federally funded educational institution's programs.

Paul Southwick [00:06:56] And so not just sports, but also admissions, how they administer their codes of conduct or disciplinary policies. At byu, it's called the honor code. So it wasn't until Barack Obama's administration, so much, much later than the 1972 or 3, when Title IX was originally passed under Barack Obama, the Department of Education said Title IX prohibition on sex discrimination inherently includes a prohibition on gender identity and sexual orientation discrimination.

Paul Southwick [00:07:31] And we saw that same analysis applied by the United States Supreme Court in the Bostock case under Title vii, which prohibits sex discrimination and employment. And federal courts uniformly treat Title 9 and Title 7 the same way for purposes of what. What constitutes sex discrimination. And so now, since Barack Obama's administration, we're in an era where Title 9 protects queer and trans students at federally funded religious colleges.

Paul Southwick [00:08:00] And that did kind of go away for a while under the prior administration. Donald Trump rescinded a lot of protections for queer and trans students. But the new administration, Biden and Harris administration, have emphasized that they intend to.

Paul Southwick [00:08:19] That they intend to vigorously enforce Title IX protection for queer and trans students. So all that to say there's been a bit of a yo yo in terms of the protections under Title 9, but the religious exemption has always kind of been simmering there in the background, but not getting a lot of attention and never being challenged in a federal lawsuit like the lawsuit that we have brought. So, John, I don't know if you want me to turn to any other parts of that or if you got any questions there.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Yeah, so. So I guess I want to ask regarding the religious exemption. Like, I. I understand that different people have different religious beliefs and that different. There's some degree to which, you know, people should be allowed to believe what they want and that even private religions should be, you know, be able to somehow balance their own beliefs and doctrines with the world around them. And so, you know, give us just an understanding of the religious exemption clause, maybe some areas where it makes sense for it to have protections, and then, you know, you know, where maybe it starts to cause problems and be problematic.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:31] Sure.

Paul Southwick [00:09:32] I think that everyone agrees that the freedom of religion is a bedrock principle of the US Constitution. We are not trying to change that. Rather we are trying to enforce that. And what I mean by that is the government is not allowed to entangle itself in religious affairs. And when the government has taxpayer money involved and regulation involved, then the government owes the American people a duty to administer federal money and federal programs in such a way that they are available to all Americans that the government does not have a hand in discrimination. So our case, if we're successful, our case would not affect any truly private educational institution.

Paul Southwick [00:10:21] And when I say truly private, I mean an educational institution that is not taking government money that is financed either through its endowment, through private student loans, or from, you know, direct support from a religious denomination or church.

Paul Southwick [00:10:39] And there are some of those. But there are over 200 Christian and religious colleges and universities, the three campuses of BYU among them, that take federal money and in fact take billions. We're not talking. You said millions at the beginning. And I wanted to say it's actually billions.

Paul Southwick [00:11:00] You know, Luke Wilson at Liberty and Chandler Horning at BYU represent the two largest institutions in terms of how much federal money they take. Combined, BYU and Liberty take almost $2 billion a year in money from the federal government. And that's in the form of student loans, but also in the form of direct grants for research or other program administration.

Paul Southwick [00:11:28] So we're not talking about small sums here. And the difference is if you want to be sort of an island free to do whatever you want according to your religious beliefs, you have every right to do that, but you don't have the right to do it on the government's dime. Because the government needs to make sure if it's funding something, everyone, me, Chandler, Lucas, that we can access those programs at the same level as everyone else. And right now we can't. I'm in a same sex marriage. I cannot enroll at byu.

Paul Southwick [00:12:07] Chandler and Lucas experienced a very different educational experience than straight students experience at BYUI or at Liberty University. And that's something the Constitution doesn't allow. It doesn't allow it under the equal protection clause where the Constitution says everyone needs to be given equal protection of the law. And that applies to federal programs and federal funding. And then also the First Amendment is violated here because the government is essentially funding and establishing a certain set of religious beliefs. And the Constitution doesn't allow that either. So the difference is truly private, no government money or not so private government money. And then now you have to play by the rules.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] Got it. You do a really Good job. Talking about the prevalence of either sexual minorities or gender minorities at these religious universities. So how. How many students a year? You can answer the question however you want. To what extent are students truly affected? What are the numbers?

Survey Data on Harms to LGBTQ Students at Religious Colleges

Paul Southwick [00:13:17] So one of the things that the Religious Exemption Accountability Project did early on was we commissioned a survey because, John, we wanted to find that out. I had been hearing, you know, I've represented these kids for a very long time. I went to a college like this. I know a lot of alumni who are part of the LGBTQ community who. Who are active in trying to promote things to get better at their institutions, but no one had done a survey. No one. None of the academics, nobody had done a survey of these institutions to find out now in 2021, how many of these young people identify as part of the LGBTQ community?

Paul Southwick [00:13:56] I was thinking maybe 7%. We did the study. We commissioned an independent organization to survey 3,000 youth at places like BYU and Liberty and the other colleges at issue in our lawsuit. And the conclusion was that 12% identify as LGBTQ. And that's actually fairly consistent with the general population of Gen Z.

Paul Southwick [00:14:22] Recent data, having nothing to do with us or our lawsuit came out a couple of weeks ago saying Gen Z. 16% of Gen Z identify as LGBTQ. So it's around the same percentage. And you might. And it kind of answers one of the questions we always get asked, which is, why the heck would someone who is gay go to byu? Don't they know what they're getting into? And the answer is they go to BYU for the very same reason that other Mormons go to byu.

Paul Southwick [00:14:53] Mormons have gay kids. Mormons have trans kids. And those gay and trans Mormons will want to go to BYU and find themselves there. And many times, they don't want to be gay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:06] They.

Paul Southwick [00:15:06] They want to be true to their faith. They've been told that being gay is wrong, is evil, is bad, that can be cured, and they go to places like byui thinking that maybe this will. This will be a good environment where they can learn to marry someone of the opposite sex. And then when they're there, they realize the crushing reality that they're not changing, that this is who they are. And now they're kind of stuck in this universe where people are really hostile and where there's no freedom for them.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Gerardo, you left on your unmute. Your mic. Didn't BYU just. Didn't some professors at BYU come out with a study that showed, like, 18% or something like that at BYU Provo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:48] Yeah, I think it was around 12% too.

Paul Southwick [00:15:51] Okay, so when you add that all up, we're talking about over a hundred thousand students across the country. When you, when you take that percentage against the student body of the 200 and some odd colleges, we're talking a hundred thousand students that are affected affects

John Dehlin [00:16:07] a lot of students.

Chandler Horning [00:16:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] So. Oh, go ahead, Roberto.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:12] A question I have, Paul, is I know that these really just exemptions that these universities have been pretty much applying for or requesting. I know it's been a mess. The Department of Education has said, well, even if you don't request it, you still have it if you meet the requirements. And so is the lawsuit pretty much challenging the legality of these requests and these exemptions, like pretty much saying these universities who are, which are federal fund funded should not have exemptions at all? Is that what the lawsuit is saying?

Paul Southwick [00:16:57] That's pretty much what the lawsuit is saying. It's saying, at least with respect to sexual and gender minority students, this religious exemption is illegal. And so it's illegal because it violates the higher law of the Constitution. So when you're looking at a legal analysis, the Department of Education might say, hey, we're just enforcing the law. Title 9 is a law and it's got an exemption. We're just enforcing it. But there's a higher law, and that's the Constitution. And usually oppressed minorities have to rely on the Constitution and the rights that are guaranteed by it in order to avoid the oppression of the majority. And that's essentially what is at play here.

Paul Southwick [00:17:40] And so we are asking that a court find the religious exemption to be unconstitutional and therefore null and void. Practically, what would that mean? Practically, what it means is if someone like Chandler or Lucas was subjected to conversion therapy or expelled or told that they couldn't live on campus and they were discriminated against, that they would be able to file a complaint with the US Department of Education. Just like straight students at byu, just like gay students at public schools, they could file a complaint and say, look, I was mistreated here, please help me. And then the department would investigate that complaint and enforce Title 9 just like it would for anyone else. That's what we're asking.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] So just to make this practical, tell us, and Luke and Chandler, once Paul bails, we're going to talk to you guys about this in depth. But Paul, tell us. You guys laugh. Did I say something funny?

Paul Southwick [00:18:39] I'm not bailing, but I do have to go.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way. Yeah, Paul, we're grateful for your time, Paul, so thank you. So give us a sense for the ways that students kind of an overview of the ways students are being hurt right now, the types of rules or policies or just the environment that are damaging students, if you can.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:01] Sure.

Paul Southwick [00:19:02] There are some very real concrete harms things that are going on right now. Conversion therapy, we've spoken about that. Luke can talk about that personally. In addition, we are finding that trans or non binary students are not allowed to live in the housing that aligns with their gender.

Paul Southwick [00:19:20] Even if they've already transitioned. They're not allowed to live in housing that's appropriate for them. We're finding that kids are getting expelled if they are engaged to a same sex partner and that engagement may be announced on Facebook, works its way up to the administration.

Paul Southwick [00:19:37] They can be hit with a expulsion. And not only can they, they are being hit with expulsions. Another concrete harm is sexual assault is a very real problem on college campuses. And it's a problem for queer students too. For queer and trans students especially. When we did our survey, we found that only 2% of the student body in total has experienced a sexual assault while a college student. But 14% of trans and non binary students at Christian colleges have experienced a sexual assault. They are at greater risk. So what does this have to do with Title 9 in our lawsuit? Well, they're at greater risk for sexual assault, but they also feel like they cannot report their sexual assault.

Paul Southwick [00:20:24] Why? Because in reporting it, they will be outing themselves as lesbian, bisexual, gay, trans, non binary. And when they do that, they could then be subject to punishment and expulsion just for being who they are. And there's no way to report the assault without that disclosure.

Paul Southwick [00:20:43] So there are some very concrete real harms. We also looked at sort of the less concrete type of harms, but very real and very damaging long term harms of students experience severe isolation, depression, anxiety, alcohol abuse, eating disorders. We surveyed for all of this. And queer and trans students at Christian colleges are at exponentially greater risk for all of those mental health outcomes. And those are caused in part by a campus culture that views queer and trans people with suspicion and as something as people who are less than. And when you are in an environment where you're constantly treated as less than, you start to believe it, you start to believe that you are less than and then you start to cope in ways that are not always healthy.

Paul Southwick [00:21:39] And so we really want to change that campus climate and culture too, so that queer and trans students know that they aren't less than, that they are just as deserving of love, of acceptance, and so that they can go about their lives in a healthier, happier way.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] I love it. So one quick question I, I also have is regarding the honor code. BYU's had a lot of controversy around the honor code specifically because, because gay and lesbian students kind of can't even date, not, you know, much less get married. Like if they date and if they happen to date someone of the same, you know, sex or gender, then they, they risk potentially being reported to the honor code office and being expelled. And so it's not so much marriage, but it's even just this question of dating. Tell me if that's in any way relevant to, if so, how it's very relevant.

Paul Southwick [00:22:38] College kids date. It's what they do. And I'll let Chandler later on talk more about, you know, campus culture in this area and the honor code sort of flip flop at byu. But when you go to college, especially these Christian colleges, there is a huge like ring by spring culture. You know, we're going to go find, find us a wife and women are going to go find themselves a husband.

Luke Wilson [00:23:02] So, you know, there's a ring by spring.

Paul Southwick [00:23:05] I love that ring by spring. It's a very real thing. So if you're gay, you're gonna want to date someone of your same gender. And that's not allowed. That is punish, a punishable offense. So you either have to basically be completely celibate, and not just sexually celibate, but romantically alone while all your friends are out there going on dates, getting engaged, having a good time, and you have to sit, you know, playing video games in your dorm by yourself. Or you date on the secret. You date underground. And when you date underground, it automatically carries a sense of shame.

Paul Southwick [00:23:51] It's shame. I'm doing that. I'm doing something wrong. That's why I have to hide it. It also carries risks because when you're doing it in secret, you might be doing it in ways that are not safe for you or not with safe people. And you don't have anyone to go to when you find yourself in a scary situation.

Paul Southwick [00:24:09] So dating is a very important, normal, healthy part of the college experience. And gay and trans people deserve to have it too. And it's really healthy for them. So we're not asking BYU to get rid of all of its honor code and say, go have as much sex as you want on spring break. We're not doing that. You know, if straight kids cannot have sex before marriage, then it's okay. Gay kids can't either. Fine. That's equality.

Paul Southwick [00:24:37] You're still enforcing your moral norms, but on an equal manner. That's okay. But if straight people are allowed to date in college, then let gay people date too. Or don't let straight people date and see how that goes.

BYU, the Honor Code, and LGBTQ Policy Questions

John Dehlin [00:24:52] We have a question from one of our favorite listeners. Kyle Ashworth writes. When the LDS Church made the statement that, quote, homosexual relationships will be treated the same as heterosexual relationships and the subsequent revision of the BYU honor code behind closed doors, church attorneys feared that because of the new language, the church would be subjected to a lawsuit like this. One of their biggest concerns was housing issues on campus. If a married gay couple pushed to live on campus in family housing, does this lawsuit address this? And shout out to Kyle, thanks for sending in that question, Kyle.

Paul Southwick [00:25:32] Good question, Kyle. The Supreme Court. When marriage equality was debated at the US Supreme Court in 2015, one of the justices asked that same question. I don't know who prompted him, but somebody did said ask this question to the Solicitor General. And the question was, if there's a religious college that provides married student housing, will they have to provide that to same sex couples after same sex marriage becomes the law of the land? And the Solicitor General on behalf of the United States said, well, that's not before the court right now, but that will be an issue. And so he was right and you are right to bring that question that is before us now.

Paul Southwick [00:26:16] My understanding is that BYU basically, and I could be wrong, so Chandler, you can correct me or somebody correct me. My understanding is that BYU basically owns or manages or has policies that apply to all housing, even if it's not exactly on campus, if you're going to be living off campus.

Paul Southwick [00:26:35] Okay, so the short answer is yes. Our lawsuit would say if straight married students are allowed to live together in housing that's BYU approved, then gay married students should be able to do the same and that that is a result of equal treatment. If married students are not allowed to live in BYU housing, then it becomes a non issue.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] Makes sense.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:08] I think one of the reasons why no one has challenged that or at least at BYU Idaho is because if you got same sex married, you would be kicked out before you can apply to any housing. They can do it within a day or two. One of my questions, Paul, is if anybody has challenged these religious exemptions on lawsuits, if any students. I know, at least I've heard of one transgender student at BYU Idaho who filed a lawsuit based on Title 9 because BYU Idaho was discriminating against this individual. Do you know anything about anybody else who has tried before to challenge this discriminatory policies.

Paul Southwick [00:28:01] So there have been a few students who have challenged these Title IX religious exemptions on an individual basis. Now my understanding is that most of these are not through a lawsuit but are actually through the internal Department of Education Title IX process.

Paul Southwick [00:28:20] And what ends up happening is a transgender student at BYU files a complaint with the Department of Education. The Department of Education looks at it, BYUI says, well, we're excluding this person from appropriate housing based on our sincerely held religious beliefs. The Department of Education looks at that and then says, okay, case closed, that's the end. And that is a practice that we are intervening to stop.

Paul Southwick [00:28:48] So in terms of a lawsuit, there, there is a case where I represent two students who are also part of this class action, but have an individual lawsuit against Fuller Theological Seminary which is now on appeal to the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Paul Southwick [00:29:03] And we, they were expelled as soon as they were found to have married a same sex partner. And so that case is going forward. But in terms of challenging the religious exemptions on a constitutional basis and in a class wide system wide basis, that has never been done before. And this case is the first to do that.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Paul, tell us. I want to ask if the, if the, you know, the Mormon Church is different I think from every other church on your list because it's a, it's a multi hundred billion dollar organization. The Mormon Church we know has at least $150 billion just in like stocks and cash and reserves. I don't think there's another more wealthy church on your list. And so in some sense the Mormon church is the 800 pound gorilla. I'm guessing it's in your case they're probably, they've got senators, they've got congressmen, you know, they've got Mitt Romney who was the Republican nominee for president. So I have two questions.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] To what extent is, do you think the LDS Church afraid of this in terms of how it could negatively impact byu? And I'm sure this applies to all the schools. But I could see a scenario where BYU would just say, all right, no more federal funding. Is this something that would hurt BYU if it was successful? You know, if it was totally successful in the ways you want it to be.

Paul Southwick [00:30:26] BYU is an educational institution with a strong academic record, athletics program, the works. Nobody's trying to shut down byu. We're not trying to do that. It wouldn't be shut down if our lawsuit is successful. But what it would do is BYU would have to make a decision byb would have to say, do we want to continue accepting around a billion dollars a year in federal subsidies and then have to comply with Title 9 and the non discrimination laws, or are we going to make a decision to reject that money in order to maintain our discriminatory practices? That is a decision that each one of these schools is going to have to make.

Paul Southwick [00:31:14] Byu, with a lot of money on its own, probably could make either decision and carry on. You know, just as well. It'll really be a test for the schools of where do their values lie and are they willing to listen to the cries of their students. Before I get off, you asked me about race and where this all fits in in the the legal case. Well, schools like byu, as well as Bob Jones University and others, practiced racial discrimination on the basis of sincerely held beliefs and did so for a very long time.

Legal Precedents, Prospects, and How to Help

Paul Southwick [00:31:58] And eventually our Supreme Court back in the 80s said, you don't get to do that with the government stamp of approval. You can do that on your own, but not with the government stamp of approval. And that's what we're asking for here, is you can practice discrimination on your sincerely held beliefs, but not with the government's backing.

Paul Southwick [00:32:20] And what you would see is that schools like BYUI and Bob Jones University, sometimes they maintain their discriminatory policies longer than a lot of other schools, but eventually came around. And so our hope is that this case gets Chandler's story out there, gets Lucas's story out there, helps these schools to see that, look, they've been doing something wrong and harmful. And maybe if the federal government applies the pressure, that'll be the pressure that is needed to get them to change and do the right thing that they're not willing to do on their own.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Gerardo, I don't know if you have any final questions for Paul. I do want to make sure and ask what the prospects of success of this case are and what people can do to help. Gerardo, do you want to ask any final questions before we have Paul end on that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:14] No, I think I'm good.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] Okay. So, Paul, what are the prospects of success and how can my listeners help if they want to help out?

Paul Southwick [00:33:22] So we think we have very good prospects of success. It will be a bit of an uphill battle in that we are asking the court to invalidate a statute. But I think that we have the precedent in terms of this Bob Jones University versus the IRS case, in which the government, which the Supreme Court said, when you're talking about taxpayer money, even if you have sincerely held religious beliefs, sometimes There are government interests that can and must supersede those beliefs. Back in the 80s, that was on race discrimination. Now it's on sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination. And I will just Note that in 1983, when the Supreme Court made that decision about Bob Jones interracial dating policy, there were more Americans back then that opposed interracial marriage than there are Americans now who oppose same sex marriage.

Paul Southwick [00:34:17] Same sex marriage is now supported by 75% of the American public. And in fact, the only religious demographic, political demographic that opposes same sex marriage or generally rights for LGBTQ people are white evangelicals over the age of 50.

Paul Southwick [00:34:38] And that subgroup should not be able to control the life and the destiny of what happens to these hundred thousand kids at taxpayer funded colleges. And so we think the Supreme Court will agree with us on that point, that the time has come where our society recognizes that LGBTQ people are worthy of dignity and respect under the law. And we expect the court to affirm that. In terms of helping out or learning more about the case, you can visit www.therealT-H-E-R-E-A-P.org and you can learn all about us.

John Dehlin [00:35:19] All right, well, Paul, we are so, so grateful for not only that you're willing to come on the show, but but that you're willing to kind of lead this effort. We're really cheering you on. You got a bunch of, you know, tens of thousands of progressive and post Mormon friends here that will help out in any way we can. So we invite you to please reach out if we can help in any way.

Paul Southwick [00:35:41] Okay, Paul, thanks so much, John. That means a lot. And all right, good luck, Luke. Good luck, Chandler. Nice to see everybody. Nice to meet you, Gerardo. Talk to y' all later.

John Dehlin [00:35:50] Stay in touch. Paul, thanks so much. Okay. All right, Luke and Chandler, you guys have been great to kind of hang on as we talk to Paul and use the most of our time we could with him. Why don't we have each of you kind of tell us a bit about your story and a bit about your experiences at BYU so people can get a sense for kind of why you care passionately about this case and how it relates to you and. And why you joined on. Luke, do you want to go first? We'll have the Gentile, as in Mormonville. Mormons are, you know, kind of God's chosen people. Anyone who's not Mormon is a Gentile. So, Luke, we're gonna have the Gentile go first, and then we'll have. And I'm just Totally joking. Please don't take that seriously. I'm just trying to be funny a little bit.

Student Experiences at Liberty University and BYU

Luke Wilson [00:36:33] Well, John, I'm. I'm in Jewish studies. It's my main focus in academia and I'm a goy. So, you know, I'm on the outside. That's fine. So my name is Luke Wilson. I am an alumni of Liberty University. I went there from 2008 until 2012.

Luke Wilson [00:36:48] I chose to attend Liberty actually in large part because of their gay conversion therapy program. So when I was in high school, I was making the decision, you know, where do I go for college? And I actually was making a little bit of a table trying to figure out, you know, do I want to stay in Toronto or do I want to go elsewhere, particularly to Liberty. And so when I was making this decision, I was weighing the pros and cons and every pro I would put a little check mark next to, you know, save money by staying home or go away and have an adventure, you know, check mark for each.

Luke Wilson [00:37:14] The only thing that I put down for, the only thing that I offered two check marks for was there was the fact that Liberty had a conversion therapy program and I was made.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] You wanted that. You liked that idea?

Luke Wilson [00:37:24] I absolutely did.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] Can you tell us just a bit about your childhood and why you would want that?

Luke Wilson [00:37:28] Sure, yeah. So I actually wasn't raised in an evangelical home. I wasn't raised in a religious home per se. A little bit of church involvement when I was younger, but by and large was mostly a non churchy or churched home. And so I became an evangelical in high school, in grade nine, actually. And when I converted, I became that, that religious fanatic. I was very on fire for Jesus and I decided that I needed to get first, you know, a really strong anchoring in a Christian or evangelical education and then go on from there and go to, you know, further schooling on beyond that. But when I was making the decision, you know, and you know, this idea that in fact it was me who made the decision to go, and it was also my decision to go to conversion therapy.

Luke Wilson [00:38:11] And, and ultimately it is true, yeah. That I would claim that I wanted to become straight. Now, of course, the question of agency is quite complex when it comes to, you know, this specific case because. And also not just my specification, I say, but, you know, evangelical, queer, evangelical kids throughout North America and beyond, you know, the question is, did I want to become straight? And in some senses, absolutely, yes, I wanted to become straight.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:34] Why?

Luke Wilson [00:38:34] Because I wanted to fit in. I was told that if I were not straight, I could not have a relationship with Jesus as defined by the evangelical church. And so I was told that I needed to follow this certain heteronormative script. The problem is that just because at the time, yes, I would have said I wanted it, and in fact, I did want it. I think that's complicated by the fact that I was told I wanted it. I was told that this is the only option for godly living. And so, yes, again, without doubt, and I take full responsibility that I was the one who chose to go to Liberty.

Luke Wilson [00:39:08] I was the one who chose, who decided to go to conversion therapy. However, I think it's a more complex sort of system that oftentimes tells children, tells kids, tells youth what they want, and ultimately tells adults what they want. And so I think that for me, yes, I made the decision, but ultimately it's a little bit more complicated, at least the way I look at it.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] So how was your experience?

Luke Wilson [00:39:32] Not so gay, I can tell you that much, John. I mean, when I was there, it was, you know, and that's the thing. I can't paint a black and white picture, per se, about my time at Liberty. Yes, you know, there were a lot of negative things. There were some really good things. I made some really great friends. I have some, you know, some of my best friends to this day are Liberty alumni. And so the complicating side of that, of course, is that I was living in gay subterfuge for four years. I was trying to play the part, I was trying to present as straight, because within conversion therapy, the way that it's taught is that if you habituate a certain series of heteronormative actions or activities, Right?

Luke Wilson [00:40:11] So if I'm doing what men do, that over time, I will eventually realign my gender misalignment according to this thinking. And when I readjust my gender alignment, then I will then become straight. And so I was told in conversion therapy that I needed to ultimately perform a certain affected Persona, straight Persona. And so when I was in attendance, you know, when that's your lived reality, it's not, you know, to say the least, not the most fun.

Luke Wilson [00:40:39] I had to pretend I was straight for four years. I had to work towards heteronormativity and heterosexuality as a goal. And of course, when you're a queer person, you know, that's not exactly the best way to spend your college years. So, you know, certainly there were some positive aspects, but I think ultimately, especially in retrospect, looking back on my time there, it was a very negative experience. I was told on a, on a regular basis that who I am is gross, who I am is sinful. And when that's something that you're told over and over and over, like Paul was saying, that's when shame creeps in, right?

Luke Wilson [00:41:16] Or shame is compounded in the sense that I as a person felt that, or pardon me, I felt that me as a person was. Was, you know, not good. That who I was or who I am, should I say, is someone to hide. And so when that's your daily and sort of weekly and monthly reality, it has certainly an effect, it certainly has a toll on you. And of course, you know, that's not the only thing that happens. Of course there's also the anxiety of constantly trying to pass and constantly trying to make others or convince others that I was straight. That sort of self policing, self monitoring was constant.

Luke Wilson [00:41:53] And, you know, that again, also has a toll. And so the self hatred, you know, just throw that into the mix. And my gosh, it was quite an undergrad experience.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] I'm so sorry, that sounds so hard. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being willing to share some of those experiences. And it sounds so familiar, right? Chandler, does any of that ring a bell? Like, I swear, we kind of live in a bit of a ivory tower where we kind of think that this Mormon experience is kind of almost in isolation. Gerardo, I'm sure you're relating to a lot of what Luke said as well.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:28] Yeah, 100%, actually. When I read NBC's article and Luke was interviewed for it, I was like, this sounds so Mormon. Sounds super byu, but, yeah, super relatable.

Luke Wilson [00:42:43] I'm actually, I'm part of a group, a working group for early career scholars in religion. And one of the folks in the group is actually, she focuses on Mormonism in Canada. She's a historian and she said that when she was reading my paper. I have a forthcoming book chapter about liberty and the heteronormative culture at Liberty. When she was reading it, she said, luke, I could have substituted liberty and put in byu and this paper would have been, from my understanding, completely accurate. So it seems like we have in some ways very similar experience.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] Well, Chandler, let's get you in here and maybe have you share kind of your comparable experience, if you're comfortable.

Chandler Horning [00:43:24] Yeah, sure. Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] So, yeah, tell us how your story was similar or different maybe?

Chandler Horning [00:43:34] Yeah, I mean, a little bit different. Largely similar. I, of course, did choose to go to BYUI as well, but at the time I was still closeted and still Dating girls, still trying to, you know, live life the Mormon way. And so straight out of high school, I did something called the Pathway Program, which, because I didn't know where I wanted to go to college, I just knew that I did not want to serve a mission.

Chandler Horning [00:44:12] And that was just my own personal reasons, on top of realizing, you know, oh, I have this same sex attraction is what it's called in the Mormon Church. But, you know, it had been pounded in me so hard being Mormon that, you know, and the coding of heterosexuality that I was still dating girls. And it was just incredibly difficult to get out of that mindset and thinking, and especially when the shame and guilt creeps in so easily. Um, and I had already seen a therapist, even regarding my homosexuality, because that's just where my bishop sent me, because he's just like, I can't. I don't know what else to do for you, dude.

Chandler Horning [00:44:55] I'm sorry. I just. We're gonna send you to a therapist. And so, yeah, I went to. I did the Pathway program while I was here in Idaho, still in Boise, and then went to Michigan to do an internship, a car and driver magazine. And what that did, being in Michigan outside of Idaho and Mormon culture and being around all of my Mormon friends was that it really started to, like, help me understand, oh, like, it's okay to be me. Being gay is okay to the world. And by that time, I was already about three years into my time at BYUI Online, because when you do the Pathway program, you get the discount, and then you can do BYUI online courses for about half the money spent per credit, as on campus or online.

Chandler Horning [00:45:53] So, I mean, you know, when we're trying to fight student loans nowadays, and I even have a friend who has over $100,000 in student loans, it's incredibly appealing. So I, you know, already also had all of this progress towards my degree that I didn't want to throw away as well. And so when I came back from Michigan after my internship, you know, it was time to go to campus, do some of my classes online or on campus. Excuse me, because they weren't offered online. And so when I went to campus, I knew, you know, this is going to really suck because I already feel so liberated with my sexuality and so comfortable with who I am.

Chandler Horning [00:46:39] It feels like I'm going to be backtracking. So in January 2019, I ended up going to campus and I'm just like, okay, we'll just get through these two semesters on campus that I need toward my degree, my bachelor's and I put myself back in the closet and I shaved my beard, because at the time, I did have my beard, but you can't have a beard on campus.

Chandler Horning [00:47:07] And as part of the honor code on top of can't wear shorts on campus. And so I got through my first semester, I got through my second semester, and actually in. I want to say it was about the second or third week through my second semester, we were actually in class. And that was during the time when the reversal of the.

Chandler Horning [00:47:35] The doctrine or principle or whatever it was that the church had against LGBT members or children of LGBT members. Anyways, that came up in class, and the teacher asked, you know, what do you guys think about this? What is the church's. How. How do you feel this. Because my degree was in public relations.

Chandler Horning [00:48:02] How do you feel this affects the church's public relations? And so after a few people had already spoken, I raised my hand and said, you know, I think this gives so many members whiplash, and it's not helping, especially since we already have such a high suicide rate among LGBT teen members in Utah. And I'm just saying this is horrible public relations on their part, especially after four years when it's been in effect. And so essentially at that time, I had also said, I am gay. And this makes me feel even worse about who I am, because the church, it feels, can't even get their own mind straight.

Chandler Horning [00:48:45] And so I essentially came out in my second semester on campus, and just from there on, just seeing how everybody else was dating, because, you know, byui, it's known as a nickname as byu. I do. So they, as Paul said, go to get the ring. By spring. And seeing so many kids holding hands, the constant public display of affections by students on campus. And just at the time, I was still so emotionally insecure, unstable, lonely, and I had never been in love before.

Chandler Horning [00:49:21] And I just. It was absolutely horrible. And so that's when I decided, you know, maybe I can get some support for this. And so I looked at. I had heard about the BYUI underground support group. It's called the Brotherhood. And so I filled out the paper. I applied for the Brotherhood. And they interviewed me to see if, like, I would, you know, qualify as a member, I suppose. And then. And I only went to about four meetings because it was not what I was looking for. I was looking for something more affirming. And they wouldn't even say gay. They would say, ssa, I have ssa.

Chandler Horning [00:50:07] I have same sex attraction. And so. And we met in the top floor of A dentist's office in Rexburg. It was just. It totally felt like, you know, completely underground. And it wasn't necessarily conversion therapy, but there were. It did what? The whole point of it was to help students continue to practice the gospel and to continue living gospel standards, like heterosexually dating, if they so choose. Chose to.

Chandler Horning [00:50:42] It was essentially to support them. It was a support group for students who were already members and wanted to continue being members of the church and living the gospel as it is taught by Mormonism. And I'm like, okay, well, I mean, I still want to be a member, but I also want to be true to who I am.

Chandler Horning [00:51:01] And so I didn't last long there. And it just was also kind of creepy that they were, like, having us meet in such a remote, hidden, secret location. And they told us, don't say where we're meeting, don't say when we're meeting, don't even talk about this. Like, so it's essentially made me feel like, oh, so you just don't want us airing the school's dirty laundry?

Chandler Horning [00:51:25] And that this is actually a reality and they are sort of addressing it. It technically, I suppose, wasn't a BYUI official group, but the facilitator of all the discussions and organizer of meetings and stuff. He was a BYUI faculty member, I think, in, like, a library, as like a tech person or teacher. A tech teacher or something like that.

Chandler Horning [00:51:51] And it just. Yeah. So I ended up going to usga, and that's understanding same gender attraction where I saw so many other students who were dealing with what I was going through as well. And we just felt like such outcasts. And it was. USGA is a group meant for BYUI students who are LGBT and need support, feeling okay with who they are, and to cope with their anxiety and depression and stress, shame, guilt, all of the horrible feelings and thoughts that creep into your mind when you are in an environment that looks so horribly upon this minority, which is everywhere in the world. And so anyways, sorry for rambling on and on, but no, it's great.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] This is great.

Chandler Horning [00:52:51] And so anyways, did that. And whenever I wanted to go on a date or anything like that, had to constantly say, like, okay, we're not going to talk about this, that this even happened. Please don't, like, you know, go around or just had to have, like, that agreement between each other and just, yeah, stuff like that.

Chandler Horning [00:53:15] You had to be so careful about who you told about who you were, essentially, because it was a snitch culture. The students are the police, the Teachers are the police, everyone, just anyone could go to the honor office and say, you know, so? And so I saw them kissing this person or going on a date or more than that.

Chandler Horning [00:53:41] And you would get investigated and chances are they would be believed, not you. And the really ugly side of it. Thankfully, I never had to deal with this. But what I heard is that when you are expelled or suspected expended from BYU or byuy, then they also freeze your transcript, which it takes four years for it to get unfrozen. So that way you can't transfer out of the school. And I had already tried to transfer out when I was on campus. It was horrible. It was so difficult for me. But I couldn't transfer out logically without losing all of the money I had already spent out of pocket or had in student loans from the government, federal unsubsidized student loans without, you know, completely having to start over from either scratch or partially my associates of general studies.

Chandler Horning [00:54:34] I didn't know what to do. I tried to, but it's so hard to transfer from a private to a public school. And I wanted to transfer out, so I didn't have to deal with that anymore, but it just wasn't. I just wasn't able to.

Chandler Horning [00:54:48] And so thankfully I just got through those two semesters on campus, even though it felt a lot longer than seven months in an environment such as that. And I, you know, went back to Michigan, finished my degree online and graduated. And once I had that piece of paper in my hands, it just such a huge weight felt like it lifted off my shoulders because I felt, you know, now I can go about my life without living in constant fear and worry. Will all my hard work towards my degree get completely thrown out the window just because of their belief and rules saying I can't be who I am?

Chandler Horning [00:55:32] And essentially my goal for this lawsuit is, you know, so that nobody has to deal with that like I did. I understand that obviously people make decisions like I did. Even though you realized that you had same sex attraction, but you are still so strongly LDS or religious, whatever, like they still go no matter because, you know, that's what Mormons do. They just go to BYU or BYUI I just want it to be that they, that this message gets out saying, you know, just because they're getting federally funded and stuff does not mean that they can discriminate like they have been.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] Yeah, Gerardo. I mean, I mean, first of all, Chandler, thank you so much for sharing that story as well. I just, you know, college is supposed to be about like learning, having fun, dating. And it's just. It seems so awful that you had to be so stressed, so vigilant, closeted. I can't even imagine what it's like. It's one thing to just always be closeted. It's another thing to not be closeted and then go back in the closet. And then this whole brotherhood thing. Gerardo, did you know about the brotherhood when you were at byu, Idaho? Have you heard about that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:49] Yeah, yeah, I heard about the brotherhood. But from the beginning, I knew that brotherhood. My understanding was he had come out of North Star. So the purpose was pretty much helping LGBT or pretty much lesbian. No, gays. But because it's brotherhood, so it's only men. And the purpose is to overcome same sex attraction, or it used to be that, and help members of it get into mixed orientation marriages, or even some of the members used to be on mixed orientation marriages and attend this meeting. So pretty much like a North Star meeting. Yeah, so I heard about it. I. Because I knew what he was from the beginning, I never attended. But do we know if.

John Dehlin [00:57:40] Do we know if the brotherhood did the same types of things with North Star with. And I don't mean to be disrespectful here, but the cuddling and the. Just this idea that if men could find a way to healthily get their male bonding out, you know, as if it's like something to be purged, then they could in parallel have, you know, quote, healthy relationships with other women. Do you guys know if they did that kind of stuff? Chandler?

Chandler Horning [00:58:07] I'm not sure. So I don't know for sure. But I had heard stories from either people in the area who, you know, had locals in the area. Excuse me, who had attended, because the brotherhood wasn't, I believe, just for. It was mainly, you know, it was, I believe the goal was for students at byui, but it was open to more than just students. Like, there was. It was like called the Friendly Touch or something like that where, you know, it was people of mixed orientation marriages who would go and do the cuddling. They don't. They don't do it today. They don't do it anymore. But I had heard that that did happen. Yeah. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] And also in my experience, and, you know, I've been following this since Evergreen and then it was Northstar and, you know, there's the journey into manhood. But what I've heard about all these types of. And Luke, we could bring you in to see. I can guarantee this is not just the Mormon thing, but all of these sort of attempts to bring men together to heal or cure from their same sex attraction. They always became opportunities to meet guys and then to have relationships on the side. Now Luke's. Luke's smiling and laughing. Chandler, let me ask you if that's what you or Gerardo, if that's what you guys understood as well. And then Luke, we want to get you in on that question too.

Chandler Horning [00:59:37] I'm sorry, what was the question again?

John Dehlin [00:59:38] If they were sort of what was it your understanding or did you have any reason to believe that the Brotherhood was also by some, an opportunity to meet other gay men and then they would end up being romantic relationships on the side? Even though the, you know, the mission of the organization was to help you stay at BYUI and stay faithful, oftentimes the end result would be that you would just find people to have relationships with on the side. Do you know if that went on at all at the Brotherhood?

Chandler Horning [01:00:11] Yeah, I do believe that. I remember that, you know, that wasn't obviously the goal of the group, what it was, but you know, men, they would go and try and like network through it and meet each other and then they would go from there. You have those relationships and you know, there are even groups like that not even part of, you know, like a support group or anything. It's just a social group. In Utah, I've heard, where there are Mormon men down there who have wives, kids, but their wives don't know that they have their own homosexual group that they have as a friends with benefits of numerous guys that they're just hooking up with and stuff to, you know, get it out of their system, whether it be for a good reason so that they could actually carry on with their families or they're doing it out of malicious intent.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:08] I know it happened happens in North Star group. So I don't know about the Brotherhood, but I would imagine it happens. I know that that was one of the main reasons why I believe it was President Clark at BYU Idaho a couple decades ago or years that he removed USGA meetings on campus because he was afraid that it was going to be a group where gay students were going to meet and then date afterwards.

Chandler Horning [01:01:44] Yeah, I don't know if I didn't even know that they were meeting on campus, but I do know that yes, USGA was not allowed or is not allowed to meet on campus. They had to meet at the, at the time when I went was the Family Crisis center, ironically enough, in Rexburg. And now I believe actually they were able to get the funds together from either members the community so that they could have their own safe place.

Conversion Therapy, Campus Culture, and Why Students Attend Religious Schools

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Luke, let's bring you back in. How much of this sounds familiar to your experiences and what other insights do you have about this sort of ancillary campus programs, either directly connected or indirectly unofficially connected to the university and or church. That makes sense.

Luke Wilson [01:02:30] Yeah. So a lot of it sounds very familiar. I was a part of a group that was called Band of Brothers, so it's similarly named. Before it was Band of Brothers it was called Masquerade and after it was called Band of Brothers it was changed to Armor Bearers, which was the name up until last year. So again, I'm not sure if they're, if they, if Liberty is still running the conversion therapy program because their in house conversion therapist retired last or this year. So I'm not sure what the state of affairs are currently, but that was up until earlier this year.

Luke Wilson [01:03:03] So it sounds very similar. You know, I find it like comically and ironically bizarre, right, that you have this group on campus. For us, we met on campus and it was similar in the sense that, to Chandler's experience that it was very secretive. We were told that we weren't allowed to tell anyone. It was a secret location that only the members knew. And it was in a very nondescript or undescript, should I say, or whatever the negation of descript is in this case place or space on campus. It was just in a small room in the back of one of the academic halls. And so I only went to the group conversion therapy at Liberty once.

Luke Wilson [01:03:43] And it was an incredibly bizarre experience. But again, I think to your question, John, where you know this idea of was it a breeding ground for gay dating? Absolutely. The way I always put it is that it's like the way I saw it at the time was it was gay Christian speed dating, right. You put all these guys in a room once a week or every other week, I forget which, how regular it was with one or the other, you know, frequently you put these folks into a room frequently. And what do you expect to happen, right. Where you're living on a campus and you're not sure, you're not confident that you know who else is gay.

Luke Wilson [01:04:19] And then you know, again, you're put in this space where it makes it very clear all of a sudden it kind of makes the work a little bit easier for you as a queer person to find other queer folks. Now you know, of course that was not the intention of the group, that the group was set up for folks to quote unquote overcome same sex attraction or, you know, being gay.

Luke Wilson [01:04:37] But that's the way it functioned for some. For me, I. I did meet someone on campus who I remember, you know, you're walking into the cafeteria and you're looking around the cafeteria, trying to find a spot to sit, and your eyes meet someone else's, or you see someone who's attractive. And I've since found out that the term is actually cruising. But I'm in the middle of the cafeteria, I'm looking around, and I see, you know, this. This one guy who I often saw, or I guess our schedule is aligned. And so I would sit down and I would eat my food and I would look over and he'd look over, and then our eyes would meet for just a little too long, and then, you know, we'd look away and then repeat the process.

Luke Wilson [01:05:12] And once I saw him in conversion therapy, that kind of cleared things up, that, yeah, his sustained eye contact was, in fact, a covert way of signaling his sexuality. A similar, you know, sign of affection or whatnot, or at least interest. So it's something that absolutely, you know, a lot of what, you know, has been said maps onto my experience quite clear, closely.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] Thank you, John.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:35] I think I would like for Luke and Chandler to address one of the main questions that I. I've seen by members and even former members, which is like, why do LGBT people decide to go to religious schools? Like, why are you inviting this? Why are you on this lawsuit? Like, let them do whatever they want. The Constitution says that religious freedom should

Chandler Horning [01:06:05] be

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:07] primary to everything. And so just leave. Why don't you just leave and go to another university? So I think this is the question

John Dehlin [01:06:15] that, yeah, we'd like Chandler's dying answer. So what did Chandler then?

Chandler Horning [01:06:19] Luke? Yeah, so my fear was I didn't make it quite clear enough because I can ramble. So when I applied for BYUI and I was taking my online classes, I was still incredibly heterosexual, like, heterosexually coded from my upbringing, from the Mormonism. And so just out of high school, when I applied for the Pathway program and then transferred into BYUI because of the financial usability of it, I had already.

Chandler Horning [01:06:55] I had been about three years into my degree, and then I. I was like, oh, crap, I have to go on campus now and I have to deal with it and, you know, go through all of that in the first place. So I tried to transfer out, but I couldn't. It just didn't make sense because I had already worked so hard. And I checked all of my credits and they did not transfer to at the. I couldn't find any schools that they could transfer to. And yeah, so I could have transferred out or just stopped going to school altogether, but it just didn't make sense.

Chandler Horning [01:07:34] So I just decided to keep going. And you know, when this lawsuit came around and we found, you know, all these schools are taking federal funds when they really shouldn't be according to the Constitution, then you know, I was like, okay, well then let's see what this is all about. I'm more than happy to provide my story.

Chandler Horning [01:07:55] And yeah, I mean I am not trying to end BYUY or anything like that. I'm just fine with them still going on operating as they have been. I just think that it's unlawful for them to use my taxpayer money to fund their students and everything and to keep going with their message saying, you know, homosexuality is wrong there, you should not, you can't do all that and just discriminating against all these students and putting them through what I went through. I'm like, well, so you're going to be using my taxpayers dollars, are going to be using his taxpayers dollars, her taxpayers dollars. And they don't even know like so it's just in my mind it's wrong.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Yeah, I, that makes so much sense to me that you know, you're not allowed to be gay growing up in a, in a conservative religious institution. So it's not even an option. Then so you sign the honor code and go to university because what in the health tech are you going to do? Their parents don't want even pay for their kids education unless they go to a religious school. And so you go there and then as it should be as an adult, you start to think about yourself and do general healthy identity development and you so well, I need to date and who do I want to date and who am I, who am I attracted to?

John Dehlin [01:09:22] And it may not be till you're, you're two or three in before you realize this is how I'm wired and this is who I want to date. And by then you've got a couple years invested, all this coursework, all this time, all this money. And then if you, you know, do something, you either live in fear of getting kicked out or if you do something that merits you getting kicked out, you potentially could lose two to three years of time and money.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] And, and like Gerardo said, you can have your degree held hostage, your transcript held hostage, and it can set you back years monetarily, time wise, etc. So it's it Howardo, that's such a great question. And it's just not a fair situation to put people in or to just reduce it to. You knew the honor code. You signed it. You knew it before you went. It's just not fair. Luke, go ahead if you want to. I'd love to hear your answer to Herodor's question as well.

Luke Wilson [01:10:14] Yeah, I mean, there are multiple reasons why queer folks or queer students go to these institutions, right? Sometimes it is that mom and dad are only going to pay for their education if they attend Liberty or BYU or other schools like it. Sometimes students receive academic scholarships. I mean, I was at Liberty on a scholarship, and that was financing my education. It was actually more expensive for me to stay in Toronto and live at home than it was for me to go to school in Virginia and live on campus. So that's a reason as well. There are sports scholarships. We, of course, have queer athletes as well.

Luke Wilson [01:10:50] But on top of all of that, you know, I think ultimately what matters is that, you know, the very fact that they're offering things like conversion therapy, that should not even be an option. Right. Again, my draw to Liberty was in large part the conversion therapy program. But that's like saying, you know, well, we should have the option, freedom of choice, that one can go to conversion therapy if one wants.

Luke Wilson [01:11:13] You know, I think that, yes, and theory, I agree with that. But ultimately, if you think about it, you know, should people have the option to be beaten up? It's like, yeah, I guess the people have the option, but should they, you know, put themselves in that situation? No, of course not. No one thinks that. And the problem is that being, if, you know, if you had a physical attack of being beaten up once, you know, that's going to hurt, and that's going to maybe perhaps, you know, leave some scars or, pardon me, some bruises. But the difference between that and then conversion therapy or similar practices is that those leave really long and enduring scars.

Luke Wilson [01:11:44] And so this is something that I don't think should even be an option at these institutions because, again, according to some experts in the field, conversion therapy is considered torture. And so there are a number of articles, academic, peer reviewed articles on this very topic. And so this is something that I feel strongly that the option of conversion therapy shouldn't be there at all. But on top of that, if, in fact, you know, these institutions are taking federal funds and not just millions, but again, billions of dollars at that, they should be held to the same standard as public schools who are not discriminating and actively discriminating against the lgbtq Community on their campuses.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] Yeah, Love it. Gerardo, what other questions or comments do you have for yourself or for Luke and Chandler?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:36] I, I want, I wanted to ask Chandler if he, what, what was his experience with the overall environment. I, I know, for example, Luke has talked about the conversion therapy that he went through. For example, my, my husband Zach, he just a couple years ago in 2019, he, when he went with. To a bishop's interview, the bishop offered him to refer him to a conversion therapist.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:03] So it still happened at BYU Idaho, even though the church kind of doesn't sponsor it anymore. But a question for both of you is, would be, what are these institutions like byu, BYU Idaho or Liberty teaching in their curriculum that could be damaging to byu to. Sorry, to gay students or LGBT students?

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:34] Chandler talked a little bit about it, but I think it's important to know that at least in my experience at BYU Idaho, some of the classes that we had to take, some of the religious classes were terrible for LGBT people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:51] There is a class that it's. There's two weeks where they only talk about homosexuality. And you're paying for those. For that class. You're paying for those credits and you have to sit through it and answer quizzes and tests and pass it. But. So I wanted to hear both of your opinions or experiences regarding that.

Chandler Horning [01:14:13] Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know if I ever, at least I don't remember. Maybe I'm blocking it out for a reason. But Rachel Moulton, who is also part of the lawsuit, she's here in Boise as well. I've never met her before, but she said that I believe in the lawsuit, from what I read, it said that like her teacher or somebody who I believe was a faculty member at the school said that her, if she married or kept on going with the temple, then her heterosexuality would go or her homosexuality would go away. Her, her homosexuality is a problem that she has, like with Satan, like, or sinner. I can't remember. They'll have to look in the lawsuit. But unfortunately there are some faculty at BYUI that I've also heard of outside of Rachel, who do teach things like that in their lessons, among other unspeakable things.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:23] How about, how about you, Luke?

Luke Wilson [01:15:25] Yeah, so I just pulled up. I keep records of almost everything I do in school. And so I keep all my PowerPoints and whatnot from classes. And so I just pulled up some PowerPoints from a class that I took at Liberty was called Contemporary Issues. And so this was a two part course. We had the first part of the course where essentially the overarching question was, what is a worldview? Which, of course, speaks to the quality of education I received at Liberty. That was the guiding question. That's what we were trying to find the whole time. But the second part of the course was applying our worldviews to different social issues.

Luke Wilson [01:15:56] Being gay or homosexuality being one of those social issues. And so the PowerPoint titles I have here are Homosexuality Myths, A Call to True Compassion. I'm very curious to go back and revisit what their True Call to Compassion or Call to True Compassion is. Immoral Sex and Its Consequences.

Luke Wilson [01:16:13] We have Confronting Gay Theology. And there are others. You know, there's marriage and whatnot. So These were the PowerPoints that were given to us. And, you know, the day that I'm able to show more about what happened or what, you know, was talked about in these PowerPoints and to offer, you know, screenshots is going to be a day that I think Liberty won't necessarily want to happen in the sense that the drivel that's in these PowerPoints and that was taught to us is overwhelming.

Luke Wilson [01:16:39] So that was just one class. You know, I can think about the Literary Theory class I was in. We learned different schools of criticism and theories in order to approach literature. And I remember I asked my professor, I said, hey, why is it that we're not talking about queer theory, which is a pretty standard approach to literature? And it's something that in any education for an undergrad, if you're, you know, an English major and you've not read anything about Queer Theory, you're missing a significant, you know, school of criticism. And so the professor ultimately said, oh, we just. We didn't have enough time to talk about that, which, of course, is a.

Luke Wilson [01:17:10] That was an editorial decision on her part and something that needs that. Of course, at the time, it didn't. I didn't believe it, and I still don't believe it, that we just didn't have time to talk about it. But, you know, these are two courses where either by omission or direct attack, the LGBT community was framed in a way that wasn't, you know, all that favorable. And so. Or, you know, again, for Literary Theory class, we weren't worth talking about. For the contemporaries class, you know, the way that we were talked about, of course, is defined by violence, and the way that we were framed was not in a healthy or positive way.

Luke Wilson [01:17:44] And so, you know, curriculum wise, we certainly had courses that talked about homosexuality, that talked about heterosexuality, of course, in very elevated or laudatory terms as not only the better option, but the only option. Again, if one is to have a relationship with Jesus, that one has to be heterosexual, according to this restrictive and restricting theology.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] So.

Luke Wilson [01:18:07] And that's just within the classroom.

Paul Southwick [01:18:08] Right.

Luke Wilson [01:18:09] There was also the fact that Liberty invited. Invited a bunch of ex gay speakers. Right. So, you know, people who claim to be ex gays and people who claim to no longer be living the gay lifestyle, whatever in the world that is. You know, that's what we were. We were taught not just again in class, but also in chapel, but ours was called, again, convocation is what we called it, but it was chapel and happened three times a week. And so these folks would be invited as well. So it was very much this campus culture, as well as this, the curriculum itself that was promoting anti LGBTQ ideology.

John Dehlin [01:18:48] Thank you, Luke. Gerardo, anything else you want to. You want to add? I want to just personally thank Gerardo for organizing and scheduling this. This podcast episode. This is something that Gerardo. If there's a prophet, Syrian revelator, it's Gerardo, because he was. He was notifying me about this issue months ago, before the lawsuit was even announced. So, Gerardo, we thank the. We thank thee for a profit today.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:18] Thanks, John.

Reflections on the Lawsuit and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:19:20] Any final comments or questions you want to make to Luke or Chandler?

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:25] No, I just want to hear. Yeah, their remark, the last remarks.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] And, yeah, I mean, I'd like to. I'd just love to each of you, as you're closing, to just say what. What do you. Number one is do either of you fear that, like your religious tradition, your religious community from which you both come, would view you as, you know, unfaithful or as a dissenter or as a heretic or as a dissident? Do either of you worry about being viewed as kind of an enemy of your own people and treated as such? I want to understand that. And then I would just love to end by having you guys talk about what you hope comes from this and how you. You hope that this lawsuit is going to contribute to positive change for. For people that I'm assuming you both have deep affections for. So. So why don't we have Chandler. Chandler go first, and then we'll have Luke go.

Chandler Horning [01:20:26] Yeah, so my main thing that I wanted to, you know, do with this lawsuit when I heard about it, was, you know, end the unconstitutional injustice that. And the discrimination that is happening to people like me at these schools who are going through what I went through.

Chandler Horning [01:20:49] So legally I would. That's my main goal as far as, you know, I mean, we're even doing my other goal right now. I just want to have this conversation and start this conversation about how this is even happening. I mean, among Mormons, current members, they think, you know, oh, well, obviously this is happening, but that's on them. And then they barely bat an eye and look away and just like turn a cold shoulder or something and just pretend it's not even happening.

Chandler Horning [01:21:18] Among just so many other stories that I have heard about BYU when it comes to just other things going on. But as far as outside of the church, I want this conversation to happen. And thankfully, that's what's been happening with all of the new stories that have been happening. I've also been interviewed by the Rexburg Standard Journal and that story was thankfully moved over to also Channel six and Pocatello, I believe.

Chandler Horning [01:21:48] And so I'm just really, really happy to see that this conversation is even happening nationwide to, you know, let people know, you know, this is what's going on in the Mormon Church and what they're using with your taxpayers dollars to happen. And just it's not right. There should be. Technically, they're not a private school if they are using more. If they're using billions of taxpayers dollars to help fund their agendas that are not ethically or morally right, even though they believe they are.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] Absolutely. Thank you, Chandler. Luke, what would you add?

Luke Wilson [01:22:31] John, can you ask the first question again? Part of it's what I want to go to the lawsuit.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] I'm curious if you, if you ever feel like you're kind of going against your own people, if, if there's any degree to which you have this feeling of like, I'm going against my tribe, do they view me as an enemy? Is this unfaithful or disloyal to the people that surround me and that I love?

Luke Wilson [01:22:52] Yeah. So I don't identify as evangelical anymore. I identify certainly as perhaps post evangelical exvangelical. These are the different terms that are oftentimes used to describe people in a similar experience. So I don't fear in any way reprisal. I don't fear in any way, you know, excommunication. I think if anything, the friends and family of mine who are homophobes or who do have deeply homophobic beliefs that these people made it very clear when I came out when I was 25, that I'm not someone they want in their life. And so that work has already been done for me. They've made it very clear, either by explicit messages or by omission by just Simply not talking to me anymore or gaslighting me.

Luke Wilson [01:23:37] So those people have already made themselves known. However, the beautiful thing is that most of my friends and family did not respond that way. And I think that's something that for folks out there who aren't yet out, that, yes, you are going to face oftentimes pushback, whether it be family members or friends, excommunication and whatnot. But for me at least, I can say that the majority of my family and the majority of my friends stuck by me and supported me. So if that is perhaps a situation that someone's listening, who's listening, finds himself in, know that there are people out there who are going to support you regardless of other people's hatred for you.

Luke Wilson [01:24:14] As for what I want to get out of the lawsuit, I think it's similar to Chandler, right? Like, I want. I want people to. I want queer students, regardless of which institution they go to, whether it be religiously affiliated or not, to receive equal treatment. My experience was not a good experience. My experience was damaging and as a lasting effects, like I said before. And I don't want anyone else to have that happen to them. And so I hope that this lawsuit not only puts an end to that, I also hope the lawsuit, again, like Chandler was saying, offers a conversation point for people. And then on top of that, I hope that people start to listen, particularly those within the church, whether that be the LDS Church or the Evangelical church or otherwise, that people are listening to queer folks.

Luke Wilson [01:24:57] Because we're not out here trying to make noise for the sake of making noise. We're out here because we just simply want to be treated well. We want to be treated equally. And I don't think that's too much to ask. What. Lastly, I would say that I hope that this lawsuit does, you know, what work I want it to do is I hope that it exposes these institutions. These are institutions that have deeply hurt a lot of people. And I think it's only time that we start talking about it. And, you know, I started writing about my experience back in or last year. My first article was published about liberty.

Luke Wilson [01:25:26] And so when that article came out, my goal was to expose liberty for what it is. And the thing is that I'm not necessarily, you know, I don't have to make it in any way sensational because the experience itself, itself is sensational, right? That what happened to me and what happened to countless others is common. And this is something that the content speaks for itself. And the content is violent. The content is negative. And this is Something that has again a lot of death dealing consequences. And I hope that this lawsuit and the media attention surrounding it put a spotlight on these schools to expose them for exactly who they are and oftentimes they're deeply homophobic, hate driven institutions that I think need to be again seen for what they are.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] Powerful words, Gerardo. Any final words you want to make as a former BYU Idaho student and someone who I know cares deeply about the these issues? Any final words from you Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:23] Just I think it's important for everyone to be informed about the issues. Something that I find really interesting is that a lot of people in the post Mormon or progressive Mormon community, what they give as a reason for or one of the main reasons for leaving the church is the treatment of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints towards the LGBT community.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:56] And I think it's definitely something that has has to change and I hope it does. Like like you said John, just a few months ago when I started I just as of curiosity I wanted to know on what legal grounds these schools like BYU were allowed to discriminate against same sex, attract people, LGBT people. And I just saw this giant loophole or something that just didn't seem right to me on the basis that these organizations or universities were doing this and having it be being addressed by a major lawsuit is something that makes me really happy and that I hope he goes somewhere. And yeah, just I, I just, I'm looking forward to keep seeing change.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:52] The the Mormon Church has done a lot of change in the last few decades regarding LGBT issues and they backed away from conversion therapy. They stopped us talking so much about mixed orientation marriages and this is I think the next step. So yeah, that, that's all I have to say.

John Dehlin [01:28:20] So a huge, huge thanks to Luke and Chandler and the the good people at reap the Religious Exemption Accountability Project. I'm going to go ahead and share on my screen the website. You can go to the reap.org t h e r e a p.org There are some great reports.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] There's information about the plaintiffs, there's information about some a movie that they're going to make. You could take a pledge. You can sign up for email to be on their email list. You can donate if you want to. These organizations usually do this sort of stuff out of the kindness of their heart but they always cost money, they always need money and so you can donate to support this lawsuit as well.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] A huge thanks to Paul Carlos Southwick and all those who are supporting him, including Soulforce, which is A really important organization that supports LGBT students on university campuses across the world. So what a great project. And Luke and Chandler, on behalf of all the LGBT students that we all care about at religious colleges, thanks to both of you for being willing to join this lawsuit, and we really hope it's successful.

Luke Wilson [01:29:41] Thank you so much.

Chandler Horning [01:29:42] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:29:44] Please consider us a friend to you guys and to your cause. Please reach out Facebook or email if we can ever return the favor. Okay.

Chandler Horning [01:29:53] All right, will do.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] Stay in touch.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:55] Bye.

John Dehlin [01:29:56] And Gerardo, you're awesome. All this cinematography is because of you. And you know you do so much to help Mormon Stories Podcast. So a direct thanks to you and I hope you'll come back and co host with me many more times.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:10] Thank you. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] All right, thanks so much to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. It's great to have you. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have any questions or comments. You can always comment on the blog post for this podcast@mormonstories.org we love your comments in Facebook or on on YouTube like us or subscribe to us on YouTube on Facebook, give us positive reviews. Click the Little Bell on YouTube so you can be notified of new episodes as we premiere or live stream. And of course, we couldn't do this without the support of our donors. So if you value this type of programming, less than one out of a thousand of my listeners actually donate.

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