Welcome and Guest Introductions

Hannah Dunnigan [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories. I'm your host, Hannah. I am super excited to be here tonight. The normal host, John De Lynn has asked us to come on and talk about unlearning misogyny with Mormonism and also in the ex Mormon community. With me tonight, I have Sarah and Maggie, Babylon and Alicia. And we're really excited to be here today and to talk to you a little bit about our experience as women in the Mormon Church. So I'm going to go ahead and start off by introducing myself and it's just going to be kind of three minutes introduction, so you'll just get a little taste. But I grew up in Northern California with a family of nine kids. My parents were very, very devout Mormons. My mom was got us up for a devotional every morning at 6 o'

Sarah Hess [00:00:57] clock in the morning.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:00:58] My dad was a bishop and stake president and we were a very Mormon family. But we had a great, awesome childhood. I ended up going on a mission to Australia and I served actually for almost two years because I got extended about three months.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:01:18] And I really loved my mission. It was a great experience. It's probably one of the reasons why I stayed in the church for so long because I had so many experiences that, you know, were very faith promoting and testimony building. And when I got home from my mission, I started university and I met my husband and my husband and I were married about a year after we met. And let's see, we have four kids and we've been married about 15 years now. I'm actually in a mixed faith marriage. So he is still a devout member of the church.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:01:58] We've been able to make things work and you know, really he's been very understanding and very accepting of my faith transition. So that's been really good. And we're just, we're just making it one, one day at a time. I'm, I'm actually a career woman, which makes me a little bit of an alien in the Mormon community.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:02:21] But I have really enjoyed my career. I am a CEO of midsize company and I, I really, really enjoy it. I love it. I love being a mom and I love having a career. And I guess part of the reason why I'm out of the church. I have to thank Mormon Stories podcast because it was Donna Showalter. You have to listen to her episode if you haven't heard it, but it's beautiful. She talks about her son that's gay and how it sort of helped lead her out of the church and helped her Start thinking critically.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:03:00] I also have a gay child and I love and fiercely defend her. And it's been such a wonderful experience transitioning out of the church. So that's, that's all for me. So we'll turn the time over to Sarah.

Sarah's Story: Leaving the Church

Sarah Hess [00:03:19] Yeah, I'm Sarah. I grew up in Seattle, in the Seattle area. I grew up a member of the church. Both of my parents are converts. I was very, very in. I left the church at the age of 29 years old.

Sarah Hess [00:03:39] So I was in the church for about, you know, Obviously it was 29 years. I left four years ago, coming this summer. But growing up I was a seminary graduate, went to early morning seminary like I went twice to Trek. I was one of those ones that loved Trek, oddly.

Sarah Hess [00:03:59] I went girls camp efy. I served a mission. I served a mission in Tallahassee, Florida. I ended up going home early from my mission which was a very traumatic experience for me. I went to BYU Idaho. I worked in the Rexburg Temple even before I got married.

Sarah Hess [00:04:22] And I got married, moved around a bit, ended up back at BYU Idaho where I ended up going through my faith transition. And it was because of my faith transition that my marriage did end. And so I did get divorced and I'm now a single mom and trying to finish school. No longer at BYU Idaho and I've got a few semesters left working on a political science degree. Yeah.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:05:01] Thank you, Sarah. Okay, so go ahead. Maggie.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:05:05] Hi, I'm Maggie. I was born and raised in Southern California and I still live in the Palm Springs area. I have an interesting Mormon upbringing. I'm about, I believe, third or fourth generation Mormon. My family wasn't the Molly Mormon type. It wasn't until I was about 14 that I gained a testimony on my own in the LDS Church and I really started to like obsessively go.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:05:35] One of the issues that I had growing up was that I was raised by the white half of my family. And being brown, I never felt that I belonged in the church, in the community. Just a lot of, a lot of mocking that happened with that, a lot of alienation from the other perfect blond haired, blue eyed girls.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:06:05] So I did fall away from the church in my late teens. I got pregnant at 17, was disfellowshipped. My bishop at the time told my boyfriend at the time to leave me. He didn't. We've been married for almost 18 years. We have five daughters.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:06:23] I just started college this last year at 35 years old. For the first time I'm studying history and I've really I've never been a part of the examo community, even though I left almost 10 years ago. We did end up coming back to the church when I was in my early 20s. My husband brought us back and temple attending, very devout before. We just couldn't. We just couldn't make excuses anymore for the doctrine. So, yeah, that's basically my story.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:07:05] Thanks, Maggie. Sorry I was muted. Thank you so much for sharing your story. So, Alicia, go ahead.

Elisha Lee [00:07:11] All right, so I was born in Arizona. I think I just counted. I think I'm a seventh generation Mormon. My great, great, great, great grandfather was in Liberty Jail with Joseph sm. So both sides of my family. I'm working to reframe all of that over the last year.

Elisha Lee [00:07:29] Kind of struggled a little bit with rebellion in high school and like constantly going into the bishop's office. Eventually ended up moving to California. I was in Arizona, moved to California my junior year to spend the last year of high school with my dad. My parents had gotten divorced and I had just. I kept trying to complete the repentance process and the only way to do that was to, like, separate from my high school boyfriend. And I just was so devoted to the idea of living as a member of the church. Sorry, My faith crisis is still very new, but I just really wanted so badly to be good, and that was my understanding of how to live a good life.

Elisha Lee [00:08:22] So I moved to California, finished my repentance process, ended up meeting my husband at the singles ward. And like, he feels terrible hearing this, but, like, really what I was looking for was a priesthood holder. I wanted someone who was gonna. I just viewed the church as like this stabilizing force in my life.

Elisha Lee [00:08:43] And I think that's what's been so complicated about this whole faith transition. But we got married. I was 18 when we got married. He was 22. Returned missionary. We got married in the San Diego temple. We started having kids. We finished our degrees. We've been married for 23 years. At 22 years, I had gotten called to do a seminary calling. And I wasn't. I wasn't ready. My kids weren't quite old enough to teach seminary early morning. So I said I need a year just to prep and to really get familiar with the doctrine. And I love that part of the church so much. I loved speaking, I loved working with the youth.

Elisha Lee [00:09:23] And I was really so excited about doing this seminary calling. And ironically, that's when the deep dive started. And finding the CES letter kind of reminds me of like, getting a bird's eye view of the church. If you've never had a bird's eye view, like, if you've ever gotten a bird's eye view of your house, you look at your house differently from a bird's eye view. You see it different angles, and you see parts of the property you've never seen before, and it just. It's a different perspective, and there's no way to see it differently once you've seen it from that angle. And that's what the CES letter was like for me.

Elisha Lee [00:10:00] It jump started this deep dive, and I was never able to see the church the same way. So fortunately for me, I shared this with my husband and Alicia for those who don't, and he jumped in with me

Hannah Dunnigan [00:10:18] for those who don't know. Can you explain what the CES letter is?

The CES Letter and Faith Deconstruction

Elisha Lee [00:10:21] Yeah. So the CES letter I just describe it is basically an index to all of the big issues in the church. So when you're an active member, you see little bits of issue. You know, you see. And really, I say that from the perspective of a member from this side of the fence. These are not little issues. These are big, big, monumental issues. But you go into a state of dissonance, and you really are just. You. You try to compartmentalize these issues. And what the CES letter did for me is it just cataloged it all together so that now you could see, you know, the racist issues and the DNA and the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates and the polygamy and the Fanny Alger and the missions and that.

Elisha Lee [00:11:05] You know, you just start going through it all, and you're now, like I said, you're seeing it all together, and you're like, this isn't just one little issue at a time. This is a big, hot mess. A preponderance of evidence. There's no way I can unsee it. So where we are now is that I started listening to Mormon Stories podcast as part of my deconstruction, and my husband started to overhear.

Elisha Lee [00:11:30] We have a very close friend whose mom was a guest on the show, and he just. His little ears perked up. He started listening, and that's when he went. I mean, my husband really prided himself on being, like, a scriptorian and knowing all these things about church history, and he just became, like, really interested in diving into this. And so, fortunately, we're on the same page, and that's where we are today. But it's very fresh, you guys. I'm still.

Elisha Lee [00:12:00] I mean, this was November 4, 2019. So I'm almost. Is that my 18 month mark? I'm right around my 18 month mark. I still feel so Mormon. I loved being Mormon. I love going to church, temple, all the callings. I loved all of it. I like to get to the adult session of state conference early so I could sit up front. And I just loved every part of being Mormon. And it's just been devastating, but it's getting easier. And now this is all part of my deconstruction. Talking about things like patriarchy and talking about things that we weren't even aware of when we were so indoctrinated and just really making this transition is part of this is just opening our eyes and learning to view things from a new perspective and learning from others and learning that we have so much internalized racism and misogyny.

Elisha Lee [00:12:53] Like it's that patriarchy. It's just part of, kind of part of who we are. And I think part of this process is just being willing to go, I've been wrong about a lot of things. I've been wrong about a lot of things. And now I am willing to open my eyes and look at things in a new way. And I'm kind of hoping that that's what this sit down will do is, is help others realize that just having a moment to realize that you could be wrong about some things and that there are just some things to think about. And so that's what I'm hoping we can do today.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:13:31] That's beautiful. Thank you so much. So I didn't really say this at the very beginning, but I want to sort of recognize the fact that John Dehlin, the host that normally is talking at the beginning of the show, has actually asked that we represent ourselves because, you know, we're talking about unlearning misogyny and unlearning the patriarchy. And part of the patriarchy is that we always have a priesthood holder, in other words, a man presiding over meetings. And so I just want to say I really appreciate that he has really given us that opportunity to have the platform. We have given him permission to, you know, be part of this discussion and ask questions, because we're here to help bring our community together and to help bring awareness and understanding to the issues that are within the church regarding women's issues.

Panel Format and Goals for the Discussion

Hannah Dunnigan [00:14:30] So, all right, so we are going to go ahead. So what this is structured like is it's a panel discussion. So we are all here as women who have had all of our experiences are different, but we've all had experience with the church and with the patriarchy. So we're going to sort of go through a couple of topics and this is the first of possibly other series that we will be talking about these issues that, that are still very alive and well even within the, even, even in ex Mormonism, when a lot of times people don't realize when you leave the church, a lot of that stuff comes with you.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:15:09] It's like going to a new relationship with all the bad habits. It's, you know, we still are trying to unlearn it and trying to do our best to unlearn it. So we're going to go through sort of just go over some topics and we're each going to kind of talk about these things. It's going to be an open discussion. And so the first topic that we're going to bring up is

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:15:31] John's question.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:15:32] John's question, if it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] I just want to first of all thank all of you so much for coming on. It means so much to me. Hannah, you. Well, Maggie, I think you reached out to me first, is that right? And so Maggie, you did what I asked, which is I just, you know, I want to have one on one dialogue. And you started, Maggie, when you reached out to me, I was in a very defensive mode and afraid and so I listened, but I didn't jump at the chance. And then Hannah reached out to me. Actually it was last night while I was in the bathtub. It was like at 11 o' clock at night and you know, we ended up having a talk and, and I'm so glad, Maggie, that you ended up on this meeting as well.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] So thank you Maggie, for reaching out. Hannah, thank you for reaching out. If it's okay. I just want to give a little bit of background for the, for the, for all listeners, but mostly for the guys out there because I want to kind of explain what I'm hoping men will get from, from today.

Connecting to Mormon Feminist Online Spaces

John Dehlin [00:16:43] It just really quickly. So, so I got connected to the Mormon Internet back in 2005, ish 2004 when I left Microsoft, moved to Logan, the blogger knackle was just coming on the scene and there was just starting to be kind of social. You know, this is pre Twitter, this was pre Instagram, pre Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And people were just starting first around the blogs, making community and getting to know each other and meetups were starting to happen where people would even meet face to face in different cities. And almost immediately behavior, and I'm going to say male behavior started to.

John Dehlin [00:17:27] It was obvious that there was a problem with people's behavior. And I'm going to single out men and say with male behavior, with men, sending women photos that the women didn't ask to receive, making, you know, sexual or other inappropriate comments, you know, maintaining patriarchal structures in, you know, how blogs or podcasts or organizations were set up, talking down to women, you know, and I could go on and on and on. And then, and then it started moving into dating and relate, you know, where people would make unwanted men would make unwanted sexual advances, you know, all the way to assault and really, really terrible things.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] And I just want to make sure that I say that it has been. It has long been something that has pained me, that has been disappointing to me, that has been fraught for me to see how problematic male behavior has been in the sort of progressive and post Mormon world. And I am also going to say that I in no way am excluding myself from, from any of this. And I think that's really important.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] And it's a lesson that I've learned by trying to listen, is that we all, we all have work to do. There's even a thing called, you know, internalized misogyny where women can be misogynistic with themselves and with others. And so what I've wanted to do for a while, but definitely over the past few weeks, is, is just what I was hoping you guys would do. And by the way, I want to say that for the little I know about trying to be more supportive to marginalized communities, is that it's not the marginalized community's job to educate those who are privileged and in power. And so what we're doing tonight is something that shouldn't be necessary.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] What, what the ideal situation is that men would understand sexism, misogyny, men would understand patriarchy. They would go read all the cool books, listen to Amy McPhee, all the bests, you know, breaking down the patriarchy, all the different movies and podcasts and resources, and really understand why patriarchy has really not only hurt women, but also hurt men and hurt children and hurt societies and understand all the issues. But that's not going to be happening anytime soon in any accelerated way. And so I am so grateful that you all are here to help us learn. And I just wanted to say it shouldn't be necessary, but thank you so much.

What Men Should Understand About Misogyny

John Dehlin [00:20:14] And what I want to do is just ask men this. You know, you may not. You may be really excited for this, or you may be primed or tuned in to only care about peep stones or, you know, Joseph Smith's book of Abraham or some scientific topic or some, you know, bashing at the church. I just want to just sort of start by giving my plea, but also my encouragement, that understanding patriarchy and misogyny and feminism, number one, it's just being a good human. Number two, it's really important that, that, that those of us in privilege understand how people have been harmed and how people continue to be harmed by.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] But it's also, you know, this shouldn't be necessary, but I do like to make this plea. Men benefit when they understand feminism and misogyny. They end up having better relationships with their partners if they have them with their children, if they have them with their. With their loved ones, with friends. They men. There are so many reasons, men, why I really believe you will benefit. Even if this topic seems like something you want to roll your eyes at or turn off or ignore, I just want to say, please give these wonderful women at least a good couple hours of your time tonight, and I promise you, your life will be enhanced by it.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] But most importantly, we will learn to stop harming people that don't need any more harm than what they've already experienced. So I just wanted to start with that.

Elisha Lee [00:21:48] Thanks, John.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:21:49] Yes, I love that so much. I felt the spirit.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:21:58] I think that's really off of what John said. Real quick. I'm really, you know, gotta say it, though. What he said about internalized misogyny is absolutely true, but the plea to the men, all of it, I agree completely. Here's the thing. I have internalized racism.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:22:18] I talk about racism a lot on my TikTok because I'm still unpacking so much of what I learned as a child through Mormon theology, through my racist family. And it's difficult. But this is not a charge against you. This is not a moral judgment. When we say, hey, this is a problem, the way that you're behaving is a problem. The way that you're thinking is a problem. And when we, when we recognize that in ourselves, like we don't need to succumb to self hatred or to loathing of another person, this is a conversation. We need to understand that, societally speaking, that we've all been raised at some level of misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:23:05] And that we're all unpacking it and we're trying our darndest, hopefully. But we also need to understand that for former Mormons, that we were given even worse instruction with regards to women and bipoc and, you know, the LGBTQ community. Tell us what bipoc is bipoc or bipoc.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:23:29] It's. Oh my gosh, I just totally did a brain brain fart. So I know the I is indigenous, POC is people of color. And I am totally blanking on the be. Oh my gosh. Oh, you and your gotcha media, John. Anyone remember the B for me?

Hannah Dunnigan [00:23:52] I'm googling it.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:23:55] Black.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:23:56] It's, it's, it would be, it would be black. That was what the B stands.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:24:00] Okay, so that was amazing that I forgot the B in bipoc. That is just like, honestly. But here, let's use this as a teaching moment. We're going to get it wrong. We are going to stumble, we are going to have issues. This is not indicative of us not caring. It's indicative of the fact that we are very flawed human beings who need to do better, always need to do better. And so if someone says to you, hey, this is insensitive for xyz, please don't take it as an attack. It's not necessarily an attack. And if you notice it in yourself, please don't succumb to self loathing. We just need to do better. We just need to keep rolling.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] I love to. Oh, go ahead, Alicia.

Elisha Lee [00:24:48] I was just gonna say I feel like the last year has been all about showing up to the table. Like showing up and saying, I did not realize about this internalized racism. I didn't realize, you know, and just waking up and being understanding that we have so much to learn. So any of these kinds of discussions aren't for a make wrong. It's not to slam anyone. It's to say, hey, we all have this one thing in common because we were raised in this very particular kind of environment and now we're waking up to some new possibilities and just to be able to say, like, oh, I could really be wrong about other things. And now I'm learning and just accepting. And I think that the natural tendency is to resist and say, I'm not racist.

Sarah Hess [00:25:38] I mean, are you kidding me?

Elisha Lee [00:25:39] How like all my, you know, all the friends that come over and play at our house, we're a diverse bunch. But exactly what Maggie just said, I mean, she's taught me so much about we all have these internalized issues with different things. And so this is just a call to say, jump on board with us. We are all learning how to see through a new lens right now.

Sarah Hess [00:26:02] There's something that I've talked about on my TikTok too before was just like that. I think when we leave the church, we think, oh, I've left it all behind. I'm a different person now. Like, I've left all those things. I am better. I am here.

Sarah Hess [00:26:21] And I think when we're going through this experience, we have to be so honest with ourselves. And it really does take some work to say, you know what? Like, I'm going to hold space for myself and I'm going to realize and be honest with the places in which I'm still holding on to things that were taught to me that are not correct.

Sarah Hess [00:26:45] And it's not until we do that that we can really face it and change it. And so I just. It's so important to just have that moment with yourself and just have an honest, like, conversation, I guess, with yourself in a way. Love that. I agree, I agree.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:27:05] I think that one of the most important things is listening. Like, we just need to listen. And our day and age, with all the types of social media that we have, this is just my opinion, by the way, not doctrine, but, you know, like, all the social media that we have, like, everyone is so used to shouting, just shouting. And like, no one stops to remember to listen because we have. There are so many valuable things and we can learn to be better people by listening. And I think that it's super, super

John Dehlin [00:27:36] important, super, super quick. And so what, what I asked everyone to do was to come up with just some basic beginning guidelines. And so what we're going to be covering tonight, and I'm kind of repeating what you've already said, Hannah, is like six. The introduction of six really important topics that if every progressive and post Mormon man and just human, you know, can start to understand and learn, then you'll be, you know, on your way to starting to ramp down the misogyny, ramp up the respect, particularly in the domains of kind of Internet discourse and, you know, social gatherings, group gatherings, and even dating potentially.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] And there may disclaimer, there may be some swear words, there may be some graphic sexual language here and there because we want to be real and talk about, you know, real issues and the types of things that our panelists have experienced. So six, six topics we're going to cover tonight, right, Hannah?

Hannah Dunnigan [00:28:40] Yes, we have six that we would like to cover. So the first topic I'm going to throw out there is consent. So this is a big, huge topic and I kind of wanted to throw it out there. The first thing I thought of was who remembers going to youth dances, right? So we all went to youth dances starting when we were 14 years old. And I was always told never to say no to a boy that asked you to dance because it took him a lot of courage. So we were always responsible. Responsible for caring for the man's feelings by not saying no. So that was my first thought. So I'd love to throw it out there and have. Have other thoughts on that.

Understanding Consent in a Mormon Context

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:29:20] Yeah, I think that. Oh, I'm sorry, Alicia. You were so nice and, like, raised your hand.

Elisha Lee [00:29:24] I have. I have a tendency to talk over. So do you want to go first, Maggie, and then I'll go.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:29:30] Yeah.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:29:30] And, you know, I think that it's even in, like, the everyday Mormonism type thing where how many of us were not allowed to say no to a meeting with the bishop, to a calling. Just all of these things where we were never supposed to put what we wanted first ever at all. It was considered selfish. We were supposed to respond positively to what we were being told to do.

Elisha Lee [00:30:01] Absolutely. I wanted to mention the bishop thing, too, because for a young woman, I am still deconstructing this. I didn't think there was anything wrong with this for the entirety of my life until last year. Sitting down with an adult male as a young girl and talking in graphic detail about how you messed up with your boyfriend. And depending on the bishop, we've been really lucky with our kids and having amazing bishops that. I mean, my kids I don't think had any problem with this. But for me, I was asked graphic detail about sexual experiences when I was a teenager, and all in the interest of this repentance process.

Elisha Lee [00:30:43] And as I look back on that, I'm finally starting to make the connection with consent. And I think one of the things that we have seen in the TikTok community and maybe on in the Facebook groups too, is that men so freely talking, like, addressing even a stranger's sexuality, like, commenting. So this is a tip. This is my first tip.

Elisha Lee [00:31:07] Don't talk about a woman's sexuality as just like just on a whim. It's not something that you need to address with like addressing someone's breast or addressing how your pants are fitting because you've looked at a certain picture. You know, we in the church, it's this unique environment because it's like this hierarchy of patriarchy that you're raised in, but there is this reverence for sexuality.

Elisha Lee [00:31:42] So I think for ex Mormon men, it can be like when they are maybe for some coming out of the church, there's still this patriarchy that exists there because that doesn't just all go away. But now that reverence for sexuality, it's just like all bets are off. And so now you've got the two. And it just. So thinking back on those times of sitting down with a bishop as a teenager, you are learning the opposite of consent. You're learning that consent doesn't matter at all, because he is able to ask you and talk about your body and ask you about your body. And these are kind of parallel to some of the things that we're seeing in the community from men.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Help me understand when you guys talk about consent. And I'm going to just play the role of, like, someone who knows nothing. I know close to nothing, but I'll act like I know absolutely nothing. So consent, I think about a consent form. I think about, you know, maybe this idea of, you know, before we engage in any sexual behavior, that I make sure that that's okay. But I get a sense that consent has a very broad definition. It can have some specific definitions, and that it can apply to a lot of different scenarios. Not just like, oh, we're dating, and do we take it to the next level?

John Dehlin [00:32:59] So can. Can one of you maybe provide us with the framework for what consent means? And then. Then you guys can all kind of list some examples of how consent would apply. Because I'm kind of wondering, Alicia, does that. Were you saying that if a man was going to comment on some clothing you were wearing, they should ask if they. If you want. You know, so I'm just. I'm asking you to give us more practical ideas of what it is, where it applies.

Elisha Lee [00:33:26] And just. And just to clarify what I was saying, I don't mean to say that it's not okay to say on, like, I think if I post a picture, like, on Facebook, like, anyone that I have added as a friend to me, that's consent for that person to like my pictures. This is completely me. Okay? I'm just speaking for myself. So if I add someone as a friend and I have pictures up on Facebook and they like them, and they say, hey, you look great. Da, da, da. That's fine. There's a. There's a different line, though, when it comes to sexuality and using those pictures to have, like, a sexual discussion, like, talking about, you know, body parts.

Elisha Lee [00:34:05] I'm sorry, I'm still, like, I'm still so Mormon in this way. So maybe the girls can give some. The women here can give some other details. But talking about the woman in a sexual way, talking about the way he's feeling sexually looking at her picture, that's a.

Sarah Hess [00:34:25] No, no.

Elisha Lee [00:34:25] That's crossing the line.

Sarah Hess [00:34:27] Like, for me this is a thing that I've been thinking about because, you know, especially being on TikTok, like, there are those of us who decide to do thirst traps or whatever, as they're called.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] What's a thirst trap? Tell us what that is.

Sarah Hess [00:34:45] So it can be just kind of like, for me, anytime that I've made something like that, it's been like embracing my body. Like, that's why I do that. Like, I'm trying to deconstruct things and regret. Claim something

John Dehlin [00:35:03] really quickly, sir. For those who just have. Who've never been on TikTok and they just don't even know what you mean by a thirst trap. Can one of you just describe what it is first?

Sarah Hess [00:35:13] Does somebody else want to or.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:35:15] Yeah, it's like a sensual video. So it's like something like you would maybe flirty. Yeah, it's flirty. It's sensual. And a lot of times it's a way that women and men both can kind of free themselves from that sexual oppression. So it's actually very common in the ex Mormon community. Not everybody does it. And, I mean, I don't even know if I could ever, because I just am so oppressed. But, like, you know, I. I think it's beautiful when people do because, you know, that's very freeing for them, but that's what it is. It's just basically like, maybe there's some music that is like, you know, kind of like. Like sensual. And then there's There, you know, maybe they have like an outfit on that. It is. That makes them feel sexy,

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:36:01] but, you know, all the good stuff.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Okay, so, sorry, I didn't mean to. So. So a woman might. And a man might, too, but a woman might dress up in a. Unless you say an evening gown or a bathing suit or whatever. And it's a. It's a more sensual. Some might even say sexual, you know, 30 seconds or 45 seconds in a video. Now, that's kind of what a thirst trap is. Now, Sarah, I want to just go right back to what you were saying.

Sarah Hess [00:36:30] No, I appreciate that. It's been a thing that I've thought about because, you know, a lot of people, when they see a video like that, they'll think, oh, well, they're putting that out there. I get to comment on their body or I get to make a sexual comment on this video and what they're doing. And while, yes, that's the content, it's. There's a line, I feel like. And I've seen a lot of people comment and they'll just, they'll be hyping the person up like, and that's one thing to be like, you look great, look how confident you are. And so it's just. But there's a line where it becomes not okay anymore. Like when you're making comments about what it's doing to your body while you're watching it, that is not okay to then comment.

Elisha Lee [00:37:28] Exactly.

Sarah Hess [00:37:29] That becomes, that feels violating.

Elisha Lee [00:37:32] It's not an invitation to have a sexual encounter.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:37:36] Yeah, right. Because it's basically so I think with consent we always think about the sex act, any sex act even. So, you know, some people will, will even go into like sexual touching, but really it's sex from A to Z from start to finish. It's any sexual language. It's any sexual behavior at all. So it's not, it, it's not okay to verbally sexualize a person. Even if they go on screen for 30 seconds with a huge neon sign saying sex, sex, sex. And they're you, you, their boobs. It doesn't matter. You don't get to do that. Because consent, when someone puts themselves out there like that, namely women, when they put themselves out there like that, they're not consenting to a sex act at all. They're not consenting to verbal, sexual anything.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:38:38] I have a thing to add to that too, I want to say. So my background is in nursing, right? So I've dealt with many, many, many consent forms. Because John, you asked about this about like how it relates to a consent form. So a patient can be on the table, knocked out naked, ready to have surgery. And that doctor better not do surgery unless there's a consent signed. I mean basically it's the same thing. Like you still don't have permission even if you think someone is sexy or you think someone is immodest or which. We'll talk more about that. But you know, it does not matter.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:39:21] You still don't have permission. And it's the same thing as if you were a surgeon who was going into surgery. If you don't have consent, then you don't have consent, you know, unless it's a life saving procedure and the person's going to die and they need blood. You know, I mean, that's a different thing. But you know, I, I think that people, it's, it's really, there's really not a lot of gray area. If you have consent, you do. If you don't have consent, you don't have consent. Period.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:39:47] You're right.

Bishop Interviews, Grooming, and Boundaries

Elisha Lee [00:39:49] And this is where we circle. I Want to circle back to the Bishop's interviews with kids. And that's why it's grooming. And that's why it's grooming, because we're teaching girls and boys that they can have no say in talking about their sexuality with a grown stranger.

Sarah Hess [00:40:11] I like that, like, that concept, like the conversation around the Bishop's interviews. Like, for example, every single bishop interview I ever went in, like, from when they started to, probably when they got married, honestly, I would sit down and the questions are always pretty much standard. But every single time the bishop would say, well, are you seeing anybody? Are you dating anybody? Do you have a boyfriend? And I would say, no, because I was just a very awkward teenager. And, you know, nobody wanted that. So. But they'd be like, oh, well, you're a pretty girl. I'm sure you'll find someone to do that.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Spell it out. Spell it out. What do you hate about that? Spell that out.

Sarah Hess [00:40:56] It made me only worth what I looked like on the outside. It meant it didn't matter what was inside. It meant that I was just an object and it made me less than human.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:41:14] That your concern was finding a man.

Sarah Hess [00:41:17] Yeah, that's true.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:41:18] Is that what you existed for?

Sarah Hess [00:41:21] And so I'm sitting there and it's also deeply inappropriate to be commenting on my physical appearance as I was a teenager sitting in that bishop interview with a man much older than I was. Like, even though I know that knowing those men as I do, and I can't know everything perfectly, but I truly hope that they were good people and that they were really just trying to build me up in that way, it was deeply inappropriate for them to have done. And in a conversation where we then pivoted to talking about, oh, describe to me what you think masturbation means. Are you keeping the law of chastity? What does the law of chastity mean? And then I'm describing what the law of chastity is. And we're talking about sex, and we're talking about masturbation after the bishop has just told me I'm pretty. That was deeply comfortable.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:42:16] That's awful.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:42:17] That's awful.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:42:17] I remember a time when my sister and I were talking and I was complaining. I was a teenager and I was complaining about how, how I was well endowed because, you know, I was like, ah, mom, why does she. Why do I have to have hers? You know? And so I was complaining about that. And her answer to me, which was innocent, of course, she's my sister, she loves me. She said, don't worry, Your husband's gonna love him. So if you think about that, how sad is that?

Hannah Dunnigan [00:42:45] It was never my own. Like my body was never my own. It always belonged to my husband, which is horrible. It's so sad. I just think like, you know, if I could rewind and relearn that and, and relearn a narrative that tells me that it's mine, it, my body is my own and I have autonomy. I'm trying to relearn that now. But as a teenager, that's the normal narrative. You know, one day your husband's gonna love it. Like Sarah said, you know, oh, you're a pretty girl. You'll be. You know, it's just kind of awful how that works.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] May I self disclose? One really quick thing to help drive home a point is that, okay, this is so great. Thank you all for being so vulnerable. So I'm going to just tell a story. So a couple years ago I was hosting an event and this is cringy. So cringe alert. This is me disclosing something cringy. I did. So we're at an event in a big, big nightclub and I'm hosting the event and there's hundreds of people in the audience.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] And it was an event where Tyler Glenn was going to be singing some of the songs from his latest album. And you know, Lindsay Hadza park was there and Kate Kelly was there. And at some point I brought Lindsey and Kate up on, on the stage. And Kate, Kate Kelly had worn a dress that had that, that was really low cut, really low cut, probably one of the most low cut dresses I've ever seen.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] And I, I was like trying to be funny and I was trying to impress the crowd probably, and I made a joke and I said, I bet, I bet. But I bet you're not. This is why I said, it's awful. I said, I bet you're not wearing any garments under that dress, right?

John Dehlin [00:44:39] And awful dumb thing to say. I, you know, there's so many things I wish you could take back in life. That's a huge one. But then, you know, at the time I didn't even realize how awful it was. Which says a lot about my ignorance then. And I, you know, still tons of blind spots. I got really attacked hard later for saying that.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] And my immediate reaction as a guy was, now wait a minute, you know, she dressed that way. And if she dresses that way, then of course how could she expect people not to comment because, you know that she chose to dress that way. And the response I got very clearly was women don't dress that way for men. She didn't dress that way for me. She didn't dress that way for the other men. Will you guys now complete this thought with your own insider experiences?

Sarah Hess [00:45:37] Yeah.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:45:37] Our body is our own. Our body doesn't belong to the world. And it's interesting because we. We don't just get it about men either. It's also our bodies belong to motherhood, which is, I guess, an extension of men. But we are raised with this idea in society, but especially within Mormonism, that we exist from little, you know, from infancy, from little, tiny, you know, whatever in your mother's womb up until we're grown for men, like, our bodies are for someone else and never for us. And so when men make comments like that, it just drives that home that we are not viewed as our own individual people, that we are property, that we are things for men to ogle and comment on and have opinions about.

Sarah Hess [00:46:27] It's a funny thing for me, like, with all of that, because, I mean, I've. I'm a single mom, so after having been divorced, I've jumped back into the dating world. And oftentimes the very first thing that somebody will message me if I've matched with them on a dating app is like, oh, you're so beautiful. Oh, you're so pretty. And I'm like, thanks. And it's.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Tell us what that means. Tell us. Tell us the emotion behind that reaction.

Sarah Hess [00:46:59] The emotion behind that is kind of like, okay, like, but I'm a whole human being. Like, I'm more than just my appearance. I'm more than just that outward thing. Like, it. It's an interesting thing, and it's something I've been kind of trying to deconstruct for myself as I've been thinking through it, because I found that once somebody gets to know me better and I know them better, that compliment starts to take on meaning. Because in that, like, at first, it become. It feels very empty. It feels very. Just like you're looking at me and you're giving me a compliment about my surface.

Sarah Hess [00:47:37] But I am more than that. And, yeah, it's something that I'm still working out in my brain why I personally have that. That reaction to it. But it's just. I think it really does connect to what Maggie was saying is that, like, we are hardly ever our own, and we don't get to, like, in thinking about it, I'm remembering my patriarchal blessings, and I'll connect the dots here in a second, but I felt like my patriarchal Blessing was telling me that my life was entirely for that, of the good of my kids.

Sarah Hess [00:48:23] That everything I did here, it just. Everything that it said was like, you have a responsibility to do this so that your children will be born into, like, this family. And it just. You don't get to be your own, and you don't get to be a whole person.

Sarah Hess [00:48:44] You exist for other things. And when someone just comments on your appearance, maybe that might be sincere, maybe it's just lip service, but it doesn't feel like they're seeing you as an entire person.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:48:58] Sometimes maybe that has to do with, like, maybe that ties in. Sarah, from what you were saying about that, how the bishop was like, well, you're pretty, like. And you felt like that was. That equaled your worth. So, like, that probably kind of feels. I mean, I'm just. I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe that's what.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:49:17] That's.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:49:18] It's kind of similar. It's a similar, you know, thing.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:49:22] So.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Please, Alicia, please.

Elisha Lee [00:49:25] Well, I just wanted to validate, John, because I want to tell you I have perpetuated these problematic messages. I was a young woman's president, and part of my motivation in getting on TikTok talk is to, number one, talk to all the LGBTQ kids out there that are suffering and to also just kind of, like, try to rework some of these things that I did. I feel like damage control going on here, because I know the feeling that you. That you have, John, because I have done the same thing. Even women can perpetuate this problem of misogyny. I am sure at some point I may have said to my daughter that her husband would love her boobs.

Elisha Lee [00:50:04] Like, that is the kind of thing I would have said. I remember saying to someone about. I don't. It's vague, but something about, like, it's just easy if you just never say no to your husband. Like, it just makes life so much easier, you know?

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:50:19] And, like.

Elisha Lee [00:50:20] You know what I'm saying? So I just want to open this table to others who are realizing that they have perpetuated some of these negative dynamics. And, like, I'm totally there with you. And I see, like, I see this dynamic happening right now on TikTok, and it's really wonderful that we have people who are willing to. Like, Maggie has devoted so much of her time to and Sarah getting on and talking and teaching. And I just feel like I am a student in this classroom, because I have been there, too. I have been a problem. I have perpetuated These problems too. So I appreciate you sharing that, John. And I just wanted to say thank you. Really validate that.

Sarah Hess [00:51:07] Thank you.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:51:08] Yeah, that's awesome. Go ahead, John.

Appropriate and Inappropriate Comments About Women

John Dehlin [00:51:11] Quick follow up. So a man who hasn't quite learned what he needs to learn yet would respond and say, well, then why did she wear that dress? If she wears that dress, why did she do it? If she didn't want those types of comments, then she shouldn't have worn that dress. She must have just been wearing that dress to try and make a statement and maybe to trap people to say mean things.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:51:34] Things.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] Can you guys explain. And we've already touched on this lightly with the thirst traps. Why would a woman. And this is going to sound terrible why. But. But I. But you know, why would a woman dress in a way that maybe even showed cleavage if she didn't expect, you know, if she wasn't looking for some type of comment from a guy or if she wasn't, you know, if, you know, because she probably knew she was going to get some comments, tell us all the reasons why a woman would get all dressed up.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:52:00] Up.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] That has nothing to do with a guy, right? Or comments. Wait, say that again, Sarah.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:52:06] I'm so good at that. Say it again.

Sarah Hess [00:52:08] I like it.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] What else, each of you?

Elisha Lee [00:52:12] And if I can also add to that, are there comments that make you feel that are appropriate? Are there comments from guys that are appropriate? I would love to hear your thoughts. Because I've never done a third strap.

Sarah Hess [00:52:27] There's definitely a way to go about, like, making a comment that's appropriate without objectifying the person. Like, I'd say, like, for me, and maybe this is different for other people, but for me, if you make a comment about the dress itself, you're not maybe commenting on my body. You're commenting on, like, I like the color of your dress. I think that looks great on you. Like the color.

Elisha Lee [00:52:54] Or like a hand clap, would that be.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:52:59] Or like, I think, I think the other thing too is it's when it crosses the line, is when it becomes about him and not about you. Because if I say to Sarah, if she does a thirst trap, say, I'm a dude and a man and I see her thirst trap and think about everything that I could say about her, right? Like, you're amazing for doing this. Like, great job. Fires, whatever it is, like, confident. Yeah, you look great.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:53:26] You look confident.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:53:27] But when it goes back to you, like, I am crushing on you. I want you to be my own when it becomes about that person. I think that's a Very easy way to see that. Like, I mean, and it can sometimes go the other way, but it's. It's not about you when you're looking at a woman as a man. It's not about you. It's not about you.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Or polygamy jokes, right? No polygamy jokes. You know, more Mormons might, you know, want to make a polygamy joke. Mormon men might want to make a polygamy joke. Probably not a good thing, right? Divorce. Divorce jokes.

Sarah Hess [00:54:02] Yeah. Like. Or oh, I wish you were older or I wish you were younger. Like, don't do that.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Or if I weren't married.

Sarah Hess [00:54:13] If I weren't married. If you were just. No.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:54:19] So to answer your question, John, I kind of go a different direction with it. I, I don't make thirst traps. It's just me. But I've got an ample bosom and I live in Southern California. And it's just more comfortable for me to wear a spaghetti strap built in bra Cami. So you see my whole Mississippi river length cleavage. And that isn't for anyone. That's for me to stay cool and to not have to deal with my knockers weighing me down. Like, that's really all it is. And I think that I've gotten some comments and I'm just like, oh, if you only knew. Like, I really don't care. This isn't, this isn't sexual. This isn't me feeling good, you know, sexually or, or self esteem wise. This is me not being hot and mitigating my neck and back pain.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Is it there? Thank you. That was beautiful. Isn't there also just this idea that. And we'll get to modesty in a bit, but just that we've been, you know, you guys, you all have been covering up for so long. Shame, body shame, sex negativity. That, that, that a woman can just want to dress sexy or, you know, just normal outside of Mormonism just because they want to start experimenting with body positivity. But that doesn't mean it's an invitation for men to make jokes or cat calls or explicit comments. Isn't that part of this?

Elisha Lee [00:55:49] In my opinion, I think it is appropriate for a guy, especially a guy in our community. And my husband asked me about this. Like, I just want to clarify this. Is it okay to like cheer a gal on who's got like, she's in a bikini and she hasn't worn a bikini before? Is it okay to push that like, button, like acknowledging, hey, cool, like, I know you wouldn't have been wearing a bikini Last year. It's not sexual. It's just kind of like a fist bump. I don't know. I'd love to hear what you gals think about that. Acknowledging. Acknowledging the shedding of purity, culture. Is it okay, or is that a fine line?

Hannah Dunnigan [00:56:30] Can I.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:56:31] Okay.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:56:33] Sorry. Go ahead, Sarah.

Sarah Hess [00:56:35] Okay. You want me to.

Elisha Lee [00:56:37] Yeah.

Sarah Hess [00:56:40] But, like, for me, again, I feel like it's more. If you make a comment to what it takes for that again. That, like, you look confident, or like, I'm proud of you for being so brave, or I acknowledge that this was difficult for you to do, a boundary for you to break down that you decided to break down for yourself. I am proud of you for that. Like, that took courage. I'm proud of your courage. Or look at you. Just being brave. Commenting on those things makes that person. It's not about their body. It's not about what they're showing or what they're not showing. It's about their personality and the personal growth that they're going through. I love that.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:57:24] Definitely. Maggie, what were you gonna say?

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:57:27] I was actually gonna relate this to a racism thing. So people will come up to me, and they will start to pet me like I'm a dog. My hair. And they will touch it, and they will. The thing I hate the most is when they turn to whoever they're with and speak as if I'm not there, as if I'm just a thing that they're. You know.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:57:48] And that drives me insane. And people will say, well, aren't you just happy that they think it's pretty? And I'm like, okay, yeah, but I'm a human being. Maybe acknowledge that I exist, you know, but there have been black men and black women, biracial men and biracial women, and even some white folks who have said to me, oh, your hair is so beautiful. Thank you for wearing it naturally.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:58:12] And that has been such a big deal to me because I've struggled so much with my race, with my, you know, hair and my ethnic features, that to have someone see me, it's almost as if they see you, that they see a bigger deal than just, oh, I find that pleasing to me. They see you, and they're com. They're complimenting an action you've taken, if that makes sense.

Elisha Lee [00:58:43] Thanks for sharing that, Maggie.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:58:45] That's beautiful. That's beautiful. All right, so do you guys have. Thank you so much, everyone, for your input on consent. I think those were all, like, amazing points. I mean, all of you are just amazing people.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] So I'll Just say men go for the strong emoticon before you go for the heart, you know, kissy heart emoticon.

Margaret Frances Phillips [00:59:08] And not the eggplant.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Or never the eggplant emoticon. Go for the strong, not the hot or the kissy face or the eggplant.

Sarah Hess [00:59:17] Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:59:20] Yes. You don't have consent to give us. Yes. Any of those emoticons. So we are going to move on to our next subject unless anyone else has anything to wrap up on consent.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] Thank you so much. That was so great. Thank you all. That was wonderful.

Sarah Hess [00:59:33] Thank you.

Hannah Dunnigan [00:59:33] Perfect. Yes. Thank you. Amazing. So we're going to talk about deference to the patriarchy. And I'll start with this. Just kind of introduce the topic. So we have all experienced deference to the patriarchy as women in the church and men in the church. So I'll kind of explain what that is. So we always defer to the male leader. So a woman can be a release society president, but she still has to defer to the patriarchy. She still has to get everything approved through the bishop, through the mail. So deferring to the patriarchy is really hard to deconstruct. I feel like anyway, because I see it now in other spaces and in my own space, and it makes me mad.

Deference to Patriarchy Inside and Outside the Church

Hannah Dunnigan [01:00:25] So I think that it's important for us to remember we have the power as women to make big decisions and to have the ability to make decisions for a large group of people. We simply have that power. So, anyway, I'm going to open it up to the group. So any thoughts on deference to patriarchy?

John Dehlin [01:00:46] So for a guy that just a lot of men don't even know what patriarchy is. So each of you that you want maybe give us some examples of, well, what it means to you and some examples of where it plays out in the spaces that we're running these days.

Elisha Lee [01:01:05] Well, when I was a young women's president, we had to have. This is short. But you always have to have a priesthood holder. And in the church, the explanation for the patriarchy is absolutely the priesthood. And some really feel like it's not about the men, it's about the priesthood that they hold. And we shouldn't call our brethren the priesthood because they're just men, but they hold the priesthood and that's what gives them the authority to preside. So even if I'm cleaning out my closet at the church building, my young women's closet, I gotta have a priesthood holder there. And if we're having a mutual activity, technically we're supposed to Have a priesthood holder girls camp testimony meeting the most, you know, all the feels of testimony meeting the girls getting up and crying.

Elisha Lee [01:01:58] I mean we share that with our bishopric. There's always, and you know, I like our bishopric members. They're, they're people that I, I enjoy inviting them but it's not an option, it's not a choice that you have. It is part of the system is that these priesthood holders presidency over you.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:02:19] I wanted to share a quick experience if you guys don't mind. That has to do with that as well. Like to kind of piggyback off what Alicia was talking about. So someone that is very close to me, she's my sister, I don't think she cares if I tell the story. But you know, she's very progressive and she's still a member and she really, she just is so has this amazing ability to be able to like be open to narrative. So she, you know, in my family there's nine kids and, and like there's some of us that are out of the church and some of us that are in.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:02:51] My dad, my, my stake president dad person is out and then my mom's in and then there's some of the kids are out, some of them are in. Anyway, so my sister, who is just very loving and progressive was planning her daughter's baptism and she wanted to make the baptism a place, the zoom baptism, a place where everyone in the family, including the non believers and the believers, could tell her daughter something, just a two minute thing about what it means to follow the example of Jesus Christ or be a good person or how they're kind of well wishes. And it was such an amazing, beautiful idea.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:03:32] And so we were all really excited about it and we felt very included and it meant so much to the people in my family that are non believers. And so she went to the bishop and she said, you know, hey, this is what I'm planning. And the bishop told her no. And it was so hurtful and so hard because she why, you know, like why couldn't she have the opportunity to make something her own and make something her daughter's that was so special and could have really helped bring, you know, our family, this does pretty well with the mixed faith anyway, but like really bring people together and make them feel like they had they could participate.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:04:19] Because normally we don't feel like that. We know as non believers we don't get to participate. And so it was just an example of how and may be her shelf breaker eventually. But she, you know, it was really, really Sad. And I think that's an example of how the buck stops with the patriarchy.

Elisha Lee [01:04:37] And that was because of the unbelievers. Is that why that happened? Because of the unbelievers, the people who aren't members anymore, participating in the baptism?

Hannah Dunnigan [01:04:49] Yeah. So it was really sad because she had an opportunity. I mean, she. It would have been great. And it was an opportunity, and her creative thinking and just the talents that she has as a. As a woman, what she can bring to the table. And then it was just smashed. So that was very sad. But any other thoughts? Sorry for taking up too much time

Sarah Hess [01:05:12] like that. Deference to the patriarchy. I think about, like, I mean, you literally, and I. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they've now changed the language in the temple. But it used to be that you promised to follow your husband as your.

Sarah Hess [01:05:30] Your husband followed God, Right. And so that kind of already, like, that set it up for. Oh, I, you know, like, I basically just give up my thoughts, right? Or whatever. I just follow whatever he wants to do. And that ended up being such a weird thing in my marriage because, like. Like, I felt like, okay, we need to do this. We need to make this decision. This is what we need to do.

Sarah Hess [01:06:02] And I would take that to my husband, and I would be like, I feel like this is a good choice for us. Like, I think it makes sense for these reasons. Like, it would always, you know, and we'd have this conversation. He'd be like, well, let me. Let me go and ask the Lord, right? And they'd inevitably come back and be like, I think that that is what we should do. And it felt like, okay, can we.

Sarah Hess [01:06:25] Okay. You know, but at the time, I didn't even question. Felt like that was just what I was supposed to do. And so it's interesting because now,

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:06:36] I

Sarah Hess [01:06:37] mean, like, I. I have a story where I. I got a cat because I was divorced and out of the church. And I realized, oh, I don't have to make this decision with anybody. I don't have to ask anybody about this decision. And I got a little, you know, the power went to my head,

Elisha Lee [01:06:57] and I.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:06:58] It was just.

Sarah Hess [01:06:58] It was this freeing feeling to realize that, like, I get to make decisions for myself based on, like, my own logic. And that, I feel like, is really where it comes down to, is that. And it's something I still struggle with sometimes, that I don't have to check my thoughts with somebody. I don't have to do that. Like, it's trusting Myself instead of putting my trust in somebody else to tell me if I'm right or wrong. And that is something I've struggled to grow in, having left the church.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:07:36] That's amazing that that's like. I feel that deep inside, like that, that just such a simple thing. You. Such a simple thing to choose the cat that you want. But it is a massive example. I mean, it's. I don't know if you guys feel that same thing, but it's. Yes, it's amazing.

Elisha Lee [01:07:54] I don't know how far we want to deviate, so I'll just make it quick. But the thing about the temple. So the idea is for who's watching that might not know. You know, you covenant with your. To heed your husband's counsel as he counsels with the Lord. That has changed. It changed in 2019.

Elisha Lee [01:08:12] I think it was 2019. But it introduces some really problematic dynamics because if you've got a wife who's super, you know, on the ball with all the church stuff and her husband's kind of like not really wanting to go to the temple and maybe not wanting to get to state conference, adult session early instead of front or whatever, there's this really tricky dynamic because she's feeling like, you are my gateway and I'm counting on you to counsel with the Lord constantly for our family.

Elisha Lee [01:08:46] And so for us, it introduced a lot of issues with our marriage. That is one thing that has been a game changer for us to not have that dynamic anymore. And actually Jamie prefers it that way. He prefers to have like an equal partner. He was never comfortable with that. So I guess I'm really lucky because I know that is not the case for everyone.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:09:14] Yeah, well, some real world, everyday ways that we defer to the patriarchy. And I totally agree with like everything that you guys said like it. I've been there on like so many levels. But one of the ways that we just, you know, on the daily defer to the patriarchy is even in our own, like internalized misogyny, is believing that men who speak on an issue have more authority or more knowledge.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:09:43] And we see this in society at large with the fact that take anything, take literally anything. And who are the experts that we call, who are the ones that we see on TV being interviewed to talk about it. Obviously we've gotten better about showcasing more women, but in general, there's still a heavy leaning on men to represent issues and discussions etc, and we still do that, obviously. Leaving Mormonism. It's not just Mormonism's fault Either it's society at large's fault as well. But even so, we still defer to the patriarchy in the sense that we still defer to the voices and opinions of men.

Elisha Lee [01:10:33] Well, look at the General Conference lineup. I mean, it's. Look at the list of the male speakers to the. I mean, we're conditioned that way.

John Dehlin [01:10:47] Oh, go ahead, sir.

Sarah Hess [01:10:49] Sorry. Even like when I was watching General Conference, I didn't listen as closely to the women. Like, if the talk came out in the Ensign, I wouldn't read the women's talks as closely as I'd read the men's talks. On my mission, they told us that, you know, the General Conference talks are basically scripture and we'd highlight them as such. But I still gave more credence to the men than to the women.

Elisha Lee [01:11:14] I think I did, too.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:11:16] Yeah, me too, for sure.

Misogyny That Persists in the Ex-Mormon Community

John Dehlin [01:11:21] And what I don't want to get lost here is the problems we have in the ex Mormon community. I think most of us have not. I think most of us aren't spending a ton of time at church or even watching General Conference these days. But when I think about kind of trying to own my stuff or what I see, I've heard, and I'm not trying to disparage anyone or anything in particular, I've heard that many women don't feel safe or comfortable sometimes communicating on ex Mormon Reddit, that ex Mormon Reddit can be a place that you don't always know the gender of the person you're interacting with because identities are anonymous.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] But I have heard many, many, many, many, many times ex Mormon women say they don't feel comfortable comfortable on ex Mormon Reddit. When I think about the podcasts that are most popular, most successful, even where, you know, most heavily, highly compensated, it's going to be, you know, Mormon stories. Bill Real rfm, Radio Free Mormon. You know, in the past, it's been John Larsen and Mormon Expression, or if it's on Thrones. And then, of course, Lindsay Hansen Parks, your polygamy is kind of a stellar standout in terms of how much it's loved and how popular it is. You know, there's always been this issue of unfair compensation across, you know, podcasts in terms of gender.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] I, you know, in the Open Stories foundation, we have Gina Colvin that's been doing a thoughtful faith, and we have Natasha Helfer Parker, who's been doing Mormon Mental health. And we did this, you know, the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast with my wife Margi and with Natasha. But, you know, the women aren't Paid what? Men are paid and they don't get the visibility or the exposure. I should. I want to throw in a plug for Latter Day Lesbian Podcast. I hear it's fantastic and it has a strong, you know, presence. But anyway, I'm just saying that in the podcasting world, I just want to own up to the, to the fact that there are huge problems.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] I'm like, the representative of that. I'm like the ambassador for misrepresentation of misogyny in Mormon podcasting. And I, I've, you know, we could go on about that, but I'm just gonna own that it's true. It's there. This is real. I'm gonna say that, you know, there's. When, when, you know, in, like, in the Mormon stories podcast community, when there are really heated discussions, you know, there are times when women's voices are silenced, when women, they're comments are deleted or when they're moderated or even banned from the group.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] And it's a man that's making those decisions and, and making those decisions to women. So that I, you know, it's good. It's. It's probably got to sound weird that I'm, that I'm saying this about me. I, you know, of course I can, you know, spend time trying to justify. But that's not the point of tonight, because these are real things. And then, and then I'm sure there are many other areas where you guys could mention, you know, there is the TikTok. TikTok community that. But. But let's talk about ex Mormons, not just talk about the church.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:14:42] So to talk about ex Mormons. John, I mean, thank you. Seriously, thank you so much for, for seeing it and acknowledging what's going on within the podcast community, etc, and being willing to acknowledge your role in that. But I'm going to call out your listeners a little bit here, because it's not just you who is making this a thing. It's also who your listeners are choosing to listen to. And I'm not saying don't listen to Mormon stories, but I'm saying maybe throw some time, maybe throw some resources behind female voices, behind LGBTQ voices, you know, maybe hold yourself accountable. I think it's really easy to sit in our cars and listen to John say this, you know, about Mormon stories, about himself, and feel, you know, pat ourselves on the shoulder and be like, well, you know, that that's not our problem.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:15:34] No, it is. It's your problem. You need to start doing better by the community. We can't just sit Here and point at the big names and tisk, tisk them. What are we doing? What are we doing? The work. Work.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] I forgot to mention Amy McPhee Alabest's new podcast, Breaking down the Patriarchy. She does not want that podcast to be viewed as a Mormon podcast, but I still think she would welcome support. And I want to call on men to listen to Breaking down the Patriarchy podcast. It's phenomenal. It's powerful. But I had to throw in a call for that. Please keep going. I didn't mean to interrupt others.

Sarah Hess [01:16:18] I love that.

Elisha Lee [01:16:18] I was thinking the exact same thing that Maggie said. I just was gonna say, and this is why it's all of our problem. It's not just. I mean, it's my problem too. All of that internalized misogyny is. I mean, and that's a heavy word. I mean, there's a. There's a spectrum, right? I mean, if you look at the definition of misogyny, I think it's like a hatred toward women or something. But to even prefer a male opinion over, like, all the things, all the little nuances that we referenced here, you know, that all goes into it. Like, what voices do we value more? What presidential candidates are we looking at? What are we. I mean, everything in our lives when we. We really can't start to break down these issues until at least we're willing to admit that it's a problem.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:17:04] Definitely.

Sarah Hess [01:17:05] Like, to me too, like, in this deference to patriarchy, like, I recently made a comment somewhere where I said, like, believe women. And I was shocked because I got a response back and someone said, let's not get political here. And I was like, I'm sorry, wait, what? Like, you know, like.

Sarah Hess [01:17:30] And it's just, it's such an interesting thing because, like, we are so programmed to, like, to believe men and all of that. And it is so important that we just listen to women. And it is important. I love what you guys are saying about.

Sarah Hess [01:17:46] Make sure that you yourself are making a concerted effort to hear those other points of view. Especially, like, with all of the things that have happened this last year, the racially charged issues, I had to sit with myself and be like, hold on, on, like, because I am on tick tock, right?

Sarah Hess [01:18:09] And I looked at who I was following and I was like, I need to be following more bipoc people. Like, be like bipoc people. I'm not following enough black creators. I'm not following enough people of color. I'm not hearing them enough. And I think that that's very much. It's that same thing that you guys were saying is it's just be aware of who you're listening to and who you're subscribing to. And if you see that you're missing an area, try to search that out so that you're hearing that perspective, too.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:18:49] You know what? I think what you were saying, Sarah, about deference to patriarchy,

Elisha Lee [01:18:57] well, it can,

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:18:57] it can mean a lot of different things. And I think sometimes the way that we defer to the patriarchy is by elevating their emotional response over our own, maybe even discomfort. And so how you said, like you said, believe women, and someone said, let's not make this political.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:19:17] What, what gives them the right to tell you what to do with your comments, with what you want to say? This idea that men even have, especially ex Mormon men because of Mormonism, that their opinion has some sort of weight, has a lot of weight, more weight than your own. But on top of that, we have to understand that women, again, especially Mormon women, ex Mormon women, feel the need to defer to their emotional response. Meaning, I don't want to offend this guy. So I'm not going to say no, or I'm not going to say, hey, maybe shut up, or hey, that makes me really uncomfortable, or keep your damn opinion to yourself.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:20:09] And I mean, some of that, don't get me wrong, a lot of that is fear because we don't know how men will react. We don't. And a lot of times they react violently. I feel a difference to the patriarchy. I'm sorry, Sarah.

Sarah Hess [01:20:23] Sorry. I just feel that so strongly because, and I've noticed this about myself and it's something that I know that I need to work on because my initial reaction is, be nice, be kind, make them comfortable so that I don't get hurt and I don't have violence done against me or I don't have that backlash on me. Make them comfortable, make myself smaller, be nice.

Sarah Hess [01:20:53] Like, go out of my way to try and make myself a human to that person so that they don't hurt me. And it's, it's an interesting thing because it's like, no, I need to, like, they're. That's putting the blame back on me for their actions.

Sarah Hess [01:21:13] And I need to maybe do better at speaking up for myself, maybe. But at the same time, that person, and for men listening to this, just because a woman is nice does not mean that that's consent. Going back to that consent thing, like, just, just because a woman is Nice. Doesn't mean that she is okay with what you're saying to her.

Elisha Lee [01:21:38] Well, and Sarah, I don't mean to impose this on your situation, but I do think it's important to acknowledge we saw this with Weinstein, we saw it with Woody Allen, We've seen it with a lot of men in power, probably every president to some degree, that if you're a man in power, that adds a whole nother dynamic to being afraid to stand up and say no. Because as women, we do kind of feel subject to those people in power. And I don't mean to say that that was Sarah's situation at all, but I do think it's something worth noting that, like, in our head, are we still subject to those men in power?

Elisha Lee [01:22:16] And is that part of not wanting to speak up or say that makes me feel really uncomfortable because we know we have seen, like in Hollywood, people lost their entire career because of Weinstein. I mean, it was like you're either subject or you're out, you know, so it might be worth thinking about. For some of the men watching.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] There's. I'm, I'm. I'm a tiny bit worried that some of this stuff we're talking about is going to get lost to people that maybe don't understand some of the history or the context of what we're all talking about here. So I'm going to. I'm going to maybe spell something out a tiny bit. Let's just say that. Let's just say that a man makes an inappropriate comment or sends an inappropriate emoticon or, or sends an inappropriate private text or whatever, and they say something that is inappropriate, it makes a woman feel uncomfortable sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] What's hard about this is, and tell me if I'm wrong, that it's not natural for ex Mormon women who have been raised in a patriarchy to always be very clear and direct back and to give them direct feedback or put up a touch, tough boundary because there's been so much. There's this keep sweet thing, right? The stay nice, be sweet. And I think this is something that we're gonna have to really be thoughtful about. One, men are gonna have to learn not to make offensive statements or comments or do things that are harmful. But also we have to figure out how to get comfortable with direct communication that that sets clear boundaries and it shouldn't be necessary, but it is.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] But when we're all in a patriarchy where the women are always trying to take care of the men's feelings, not get hurt, not, you know, not Offend the man sometimes, unless you just really hit the man over the head with, hey, that was offensive, it hurt my feelings, which so many Mormon women are probably just never comfortable saying. Or at least it takes them a while before they learn it.

John Dehlin [01:24:22] Then sometimes men just don't get, get the message that they've actually acted in an offensive way. Now I just kind of mentioned all that to maybe try and kick off a bit of a follow up discussion, if that's helpful.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:24:33] Yeah, it's interesting how you said that because at the end there,

Hannah Dunnigan [01:24:40] because it's

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:24:41] still a level of deferring to the patriarchy, not what you were saying. Let me back up a little bit here. So having to hit men over the head with it. Yes, I completely agree. And I also completely agree and hear what you're saying about how it shouldn't be necessary. But hey, let's talk reality, right? But with men, the problem is, is that when you do, when you're very frank with them, a lot of times they respond with aggression. Sometimes that can be scary. If you're in person, it can get physical, but online it can be like you were saying before John about when you said what you did about her outfit and then people came at you and you're like, wait a second, that's sort of defensiveness.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:25:27] And that in itself is deferring to the patriarchy. My opinion as a male matters more than her right to wear that dress, matters more than any nuance to the situation. But I want to emphasize something. This is not so. This isn't just an ex Mormon women problem. This is a universal problem among women.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:25:49] But women in greater society are definitely learning to speak out, learning to push back and, and men are definitely learning and there's so much more work to do, but it's happening. There's that whole thing that Mormonism is always a few decades behind. Ex Mormonism is going to be, it's going to be two. It just is what it is. So I think that ex Mormon women aren't unlike greater society women, but maybe just a few notches down, not quite there yet, if that makes sense.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:26:23] Totally, definitely.

Sarah Hess [01:26:24] This is a place where we can help each other out too. Where if you see this happening for somebody else and you maybe know their background or, or you may be just, you see it happening to somebody that you can speak up yourself and say something like if, for example, like maybe I reached out to friends and I said, hey, I am uncomfortable with the situation I'm in and I am scared and I don't know what to do?

Sarah Hess [01:26:51] Those people that I reach out to could maybe then say, like, respond to that comment that they made and be like, hey, like, I don't think that this is appropriate. Like, back that person up. Because, like, for me as a person, I tend to be a little bit softer spoken. I maybe don't come across that way when I'm like, on TikTok and whatnot. But, like, I struggle to speak up for myself. I struggle to be upfront. I tend to be more shy and more quiet and I struggle with that confrontation. And so especially those friends that I reach out to, like, if they help take up that thing that's hard for me to do, and they say, you know what?

Sarah Hess [01:27:36] I've got your back. Let me help you fend off this person. I feel like that's a really good way to be an ally to women, especially because we found, and it's so unfortunate, men sometimes only listen to men.

Sarah Hess [01:27:54] And so, you know, if you're a man and you have a female friend that reaches out to you and say, I'm in a situation that makes me uncomfortable. I mean, it's always, ask her if you can help her with it. If you're not sure if she wants your help, ask her if you can help her with it. Say like, hey, I would like to respond to this person. I would like to say something and say, hey, like, I'm not okay with what you said to my friend. Please don't do that. And she'll let you know if she's comfortable with that or not. Right.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:28:23] It's, it's, it goes back to deferring to the patriarchy. It goes right back to it. I mean, men still are different.

Sarah Hess [01:28:29] It's the world we kind of live in. But like, I would have appreciated something like that. I would have appreciated a friend of mine coming to me and being like, I'm seeing something happen. I'm uncomfortable with it. It seems like maybe you are too. Or you've said to me that you're uncomfortable. Like, are you okay with me making this comment? That would have been so helpful for me.

Elisha Lee [01:28:52] The male ally, I think is a good point too. I see what you're saying, Maggie.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:28:57] And also with the male ally with, with consent. Because, you know, if the, you know, you have like, I mean, we can't go into toxic masculinity right now because it just would take forever. But I find it very toxic, which I used to think this was fine. But like, when you have a dad that is like, you can't date anyone, I'LL kill anybody that, like that, like, even looks at you.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:29:23] Right?

Hannah Dunnigan [01:29:23] Well, you're not giving your, that, you're not giving that, that teenager like their own power. You're not have, you know, like, that. You don't want to come in guns blazing with, to protect your friend if they don't want that, you know. So it's really important also to see what they need. Like, ask them. And all you have to ask to say, you know, I feel like, do you need my, do you need me to have your back on this? Because, you know, I see this going down and I can, you know, I don't mind. I'll put myself out there or I'll just let you handle it, whatever, you know, and, and just ask like it's, it's.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:30:00] I mean, I'd be open when someone, I would, would love if someone ever asked me that, if I was in a situation where I felt uncomfortable. And I don't know what you guys think. Think, but you can weigh in on that.

John Dehlin [01:30:11] So tell me if I, tell me if I'm hearing you right. So let's just say someone's doing a TikTok live or some, somebody posts a TikTok video or it's on Reddit and some, let's just say woman posts or on Instagram a photo where they're, they're trying to show some body positivity.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] And then let's say, for example, a man notices that another man, you know, does the kissy face hearts or says, you know, does the flame emoticon or says, you know, says, hey, makes the polygamy comment or makes the. I wish I were divorced or says something even more graphic or explicit like, wow, I'm, I'm, you know, you know, I'm being aroused or whatever it is that what a man can do, what an ally, what a man can do to kind of be supportive to women is check in with the woman and say, hey, I noticed that this other guy seems to be saying some really inappropriate things.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Would you like for me to kind of say something to him, to kind of help educate him that that stuff isn't wanted and it's not appropriate? And what that entails is the man having the desire to be supportive, to notice it and to have the desire to be supportive and to be proactive about it? Because if we all will help educate each other, there are going to be some jerks that just want to, that just don't want to be nice or that don't want to be cool or they don't Want to be respectful.

John Dehlin [01:31:43] I am going to guess that there are a lot of men out there in this case that actually if they can just know that what they're saying or doing is hurtful or offensive or making someone uncomfortable, comfortable or sad, they actually will stop. But they're just too thick to even know it yet.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] And, and sometimes it just takes somebody pulling them aside. It shouldn't, but sometimes it's helpful if there can be some allies out there that will pull the, pull the dude aside and say, hey dude, dude, I know you mean well, but this isn't a compliment. Even though you think it is. This is offensive and this isn't appropriate. Am I. Is that one thing we're saying?

Sarah Hess [01:32:21] I would say, like, absolutely. Like I love that. I would say first though, ask her how she feels about it. Ask her like, I'm seeing this. How do you feel about what you're seeing? And then if she's okay with it, let it be. If she's not, then ask the question. I would like to say something. Are you okay with me saying something?

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:32:44] Well, and I think it's. Sometimes it's hard to read the room, you know, but let's say that someone is doing a live and they're, you know, wearing a low cut shirt or something and someone comes in and starts saying some things about, you know, want to be my third ex wife or whatever.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:33:00] I think if the woman responds like bro, you know, if she's clearly uncomfortable that a man speaking up and being like, like an ally speaking up and being like, yeah, guy, please don't, you know, isn't, isn't wrong. I also think that with regards to this, a lot of times people think that all they have to do is push back once and that's it.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:33:25] And really that guy might still keep coming back and you're, you might need to keep checking them, you know, and that's just the reality of the situation. You have to be willing to, to really fight the good fight for more than just one or two comments.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:33:44] And it's, it's scary. I mean, we know it's scary. I'll give you. So I hope I can speak to this because I know it's so. Maggie, you can stop me if you want to because I, sometimes I get uncomfortable talking about any race because I don't have the personal experience. But you know, for instance, some. If it's scary for the men to be allies, think about how scary it is for the women to be survivors and victims of this. So, you know, for instance, my, you know, during the George Floyd movements, I purchased the Black Lives Matter flag. And I live in a very, very, very conservative area, which is fine, but I purchased this flag, and I.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:34:27] My daughter and I wanted. She's huge on human rights. She feels very passionate about it, so. So do I. And so we wanted to put this flag out. And when she was going to put it out, I said, I don't know. I'm scared.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:34:41] I'm a little nervous about what the neighbors might say. And she looked me dead in the face and she said, mom, think about if you were a mother of color and you were worried about your son being killed by the police, you would be afraid. She's like, don't be afraid. And then I was like, yeah. So if you're. If you're a male and you think that it's scary to stand up to a man who's being. Who's harassing a woman, think about what it's like to be that woman being harassed. I don't know. Does that make sense?

Sarah Hess [01:35:15] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:16] That's great. Thank you.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:35:18] My daughter teaches me a lot of things on the daily.

John Dehlin [01:35:21] Mine, too.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:35:23] So. All right, so I think if there. If we don't have anything else to talk about on the deference to the patriarchy, I think we made some really great thoughts there. So any. Anybody else on that? Should we move on?

Gender Roles in Mormonism and Progressive Spaces

Hannah Dunnigan [01:35:38] Okay, so the next thing we're going to talk about is gender roles. I'll go ahead and just introduce it. So, you know, obviously in Mormonism, gender roles is a big thing. My husband was always, like. Has always pushed me to, like, finish my education and do, you know, do, do, do. Right. Which I don't. I don't know how he.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:35:59] I got really lucky. I didn't know at the time. I thought he was, like, unrighteous for wanting me to have my own career and have, you know. But I remember when I moved to the area that I am in now, my business partner and I bought a healthcare company, and I came to run the company and I moved to this city where I'm at now, and I went to my new ward, and people would be like, what brought you here? And I said, oh, I own this.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:36:26] This.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:36:26] This company. And, you know, I bought this company with my business partner and I. I run it. And they're like, they. They kind of were like, what? I run. I run a company. And the CEO of this company and they said, oh, yeah, like, this other person runs their company, too. They. They make signs or whatever, or they, like. It was like, I was an alien because I did not fit in that mold. They literally looked at me like an. I was. They couldn't understand it.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:36:54] They couldn't.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:36:54] I was like. Like, I had to say, like, I have this many employees.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:36:58] I do this.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:36:59] I do. I'm like, I. This is true. This is true. But it was really hard for them to understand. And so gender roles has been a huge thing for me now. I am so thankful that my husband was always supportive of me and saw my potential, because otherwise I, Like, I thought he was unrighteous. I thought he was literally unrighteous. So, anyway, let's. Let's start the discussion on gender roles, you guys.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] Yeah. And specifically, you know, informed for sure by your time in the church. But what I really don't want to miss is how this applies kind of in the progressive and post Mormon Internet spaces.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:37:36] Oh, it's huge. Sorry. One more thing about that, too. I'll stop after one second. But in the ex Mormon community, you know what happens? I see it all the time. Moms who are. Were very, very righteous Mormons. They stayed home with the kids, they quit school, they supported their husband through school. They did all that. They leave the church, they get divorced because their husband's still in the. You know, their wife is not righteous anymore. And then that woman was not empowered at the time that she was in the church. She was not empowered because of the gender roles. And so she ends up having to figure it.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:38:17] I mean, I'm sure, Sarah, you can relate like that. It makes me mad. Yeah, it makes me mad. Because then they're. They're, you know, it's not fair. It's not fair to them because that can happen. And in the narrative of the church, it doesn't happen. Like, divorce never happens. You know, it's perfect. It's. Anyway. Okay, I'll let everybody else talk now.

Elisha Lee [01:38:38] Sorry.

Sarah Hess [01:38:38] Like, you literally just described, like, my experience because it was a thing where, I mean, I initially especially, like, it took me a while as I was growing up and getting older and going into adulthood to really find who I was.

Sarah Hess [01:38:55] And I can go into a funny story there, but it's not important. But basically, I thought, like, all I wanted was the bare minimum with school because, like, it wasn't important. Like, and I was. That wasn't my focus. Especially, again, with that patriarchal blessing thing. My focus was go.

Sarah Hess [01:39:16] Go to school enough to have, like, something to fall back on should, you know, the worst happen if your husband passes away or you get divorced, like, you have something to fall back on. Like, I thought it was just the plan B. And it took me a long time, time to realize, like, no, I, I wanted things and I was ambitious and I had things I wanted to do that I enjoyed going to school. And so then I got married. And I remember we actually, my ex husband and I, when we were engaged, sat down with my mission president and his wife and they were like, well, what's your plan?

Sarah Hess [01:39:57] What are you gonna do? And we talked about how, you know, like, we were gonna to put his education first because that's what we have been taught by the church. And they were, they both were very affirming in that. And they're like, yes, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to, you know, put your. The, the man through school first. He's supposed to be the breadwinner. And then if you've got time and money, the woman can go to school, she can finish school. And it's been an interesting thing because coming out of the church and I've had family that are not affirming of that.

Sarah Hess [01:40:29] And they say, oh, that's not what they believe. And I've seen it kind of in dating for this whole thing with the ambition thing, because that's definitely not something that was appreciated in the church. Men avoided me if I talked about ambition that I had.

Sarah Hess [01:40:47] And now it feels important to me to find somebody who is very supportive of that. And I will say for what I've seen with ex Mormon men that I've come in contact with, the good majority of them do seem to be a lot more supportive of that. So I will say that for ex women that I've at least encountered, they do seem more supportive of ambition in women. So I appreciate that.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:41:17] So for, for me, the big thing that stands out to me with ex Mormons and gender roles really ties into sexual shaming a lot of the time because they can't seem to view a woman who is a mother as anything but a mother. So it becomes like, should you be doing those thirst traps? Should you be doing, you know, whatever it is that you're doing with your own body if you're a mother or what does your husband think of that? Or anything like that? If you are married and or have children as a woman in the ex Mormon community, a lot of times you will get considered just that, a wife and a mother, just like in the church. And that is something I think that we absolutely carried over where we don't have an identity as women, especially sexually. We are only wives and Mothers.

Elisha Lee [01:42:14] Absolutely.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:42:17] It's been interesting. It's been interesting for me trying to break down the gender roles in a mixed faith marriage, too. You know, it's like, even though my husband's super awesome and, like, is trying really hard, but I'm having to really do a lot of education with him, you know, and, like, I've deconstructed this. This doesn't work for me anymore. So it's. Yeah.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:42:38] And I know lots of people experience that same thing. And I'm always happy to talk about mixed faith marriage, by the way. So if anyone out there listening, like, my TikTok handle is on here, and I'm always happy to be a support to any. Anyone, especially women who are in mixed faith marriages, because I know it's hot, really hard sometimes it doesn't work at all, you know, and I just.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:43:01] I feel for you. So anything else on gender roles, you guys? I mean, that was a pretty easy one because it's pretty black and white.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:43:14] They're bad.

Sarah Hess [01:43:15] Yeah.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:43:16] Yes.

Sarah Hess [01:43:18] And, you know, it's interesting too, because I feel like, you know, a lot of times you get, especially with feminism, there's so many, like, broad generalizations, right. And they say, oh, they just want, like, anybody who is a feminist, they don't want women to be, like, in the home with their kids. Like, And I feel like I just want people to be able to make a choice for themselves. And I think, like, as long as you decide what you're comfortable with and the person you're with is comfortable, like, you're on the same page. Like, you do you. For me, like, I view relationships and gender roles like partnerships, like, honest to God, like a hundred percent, across the board partnerships. And so I, you know, like, be on the same page with people that you're in relationships with or something, or try to find the same page. I don't. Yeah, that's actually.

Elisha Lee [01:44:20] That's a great point. A lot of feminists want to stay at home with their kids.

Sarah Hess [01:44:24] Yeah.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:44:25] Yeah.

Elisha Lee [01:44:26] You have to do what works for you. But I think the thing that goes back to, well, what Maggie was saying in the community, we have to understand whether you are a man or like, or us. I mean, these scripts are so deeply ingrained, we don't even realize that they're there. And so those preconceived notions when you're watching TikTok or whatever the videos that creators are putting out, those are so deeply ingrained, and we don't even realize they're there. So I think just even having this discussion is A big step. Just recognizing it.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:45:07] Huge.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:45:08] Huge.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:45:08] I agree. I agree.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] I'll just say really quickly that I'm trying to think in each of these points. Areas where I've goofed up personally in this one. I just want to say, like, just. And this isn't to pat myself on the back. It's just something I realized when I started doing workshops and retreats and I would travel around the country.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] I would just start thinking about, like, okay, when we start a workshop, is it really going to be a man, a white, straight, you know, cisgender, heterosexual, you know, man, who's going to stand up and welcome everybody and, you know, thank everyone for coming and be, you know, and then I just thought, oh, that is. How are we not just repeating the same thing? We've all just left. And so one of the commitments that I made early, early on, we tried to do this in the most recent thrives that we've held as well, is why not have women preside? Why not have women welcome everybody?

John Dehlin [01:46:08] Have women, you know, thank you for coming. Tell everyone about what the agenda's gonna be. Have women sitting up on the stage, you know, just. And I'm not trying to pretend like that's some huge deal or like. But, like, you know, that's why Hannah, I'm like, why don't you. Why don't you totally kick off tonight's episode? And I'm just saying, my only point isn't to say, wow, I did a great thing. It's men out there. As you're working in Instagram or TikTok or YouTube or. Or Reddit or whatever, be creative and think about how are we just repeating the same old structures, the same old patterns, the same old stratified gender roles that we've always been fulfilling, and how can we turn that upside down?

John Dehlin [01:46:57] And I just want to say one plug. There are a couple organizations that I've seen emerge. One is waca, Women of a certain age along the Wasatch Front. And the other is another community that I just learned about of over 3,000 post Mormon women along the Wasatch Front that Chelsea Homer is leading.

Elisha Lee [01:47:23] Faith Journey Meetups.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] Faith Journey Meetups. That group has like 4,000 people now. And what I realized is women, like, if any of you want to get something done, have women be in charge. And instead of the women doing all the, you know, it was funny because I. When I reached out to some of the female tiktokers and I said, hey, let's organize a conference. I'll just sit back and you guys be in charge. Nuance. Ho. Kara made the funny comment that sounds like Thanksgiving, where the women do all the shopping, all the cooking, all the cleaning. Like, how about men do the legwork and the women do the strategizing and the organizing and the leading and tell the men what to do, and the men are the ones, you know, doing a lot of that legwork?

John Dehlin [01:48:08] And so all I'm saying is, is just, it's my plug for let's figure out ways to be creative in our structures to turn the patriarchy on its head. But the good news is there's not. I've seen few organizations as successful as, you know, WACA and as Chelsea's organization, again, what's it called?

Elisha Lee [01:48:29] Faith Journey Meetup.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Faith Journey Meetups. These are huge, well run, well organized organizations, and what you're gonna get is amazing outcomes when the men step back and let women step forward. And so that's just my plug. I've seen it over and over again. But don't leave all the work. Don't leave all the work to the women.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:48:49] No. Yes. No.

Elisha Lee [01:48:51] I was worried about this being, like, a huge make wrong, and I don't want it to be presented that way at all. But. And with that said, there's a lot of guys in the TikTok community who are like, I'm here. I'm ready to learn. I. What do.

Sarah Hess [01:49:06] What do I do?

Elisha Lee [01:49:06] You know what I mean? So I really appreciate this opportunity to, like, just kind of, like, start the conversation. And I called Hannah right before, and I was like, I don't want this to be, like, a big make wrong. So anyway, but as I told you guys, I'm kind of a student here too, so I'm learning from you.

Sarah Hess [01:49:25] I feel like one of the big things, and I. I hope it's not totally unrelated, but it keeps coming to mind for me as we're talking about this is like, the way that you can help is amplify women's voices and.

Sarah Hess [01:49:40] And to, you know, if you're presenting an idea that you heard from a woman, give her the credit for the idea and don't just present it as your own. I recently was talking about an experience that I had when I was at byu, Idaho, where I sat really close to the teacher because I was that kid, and there was a classroom discussion happening, and the teacher asked a question, and I was saying the right answer, and I was really close to where the teacher was at, and he just could not hear me, even though it was honestly saying it fairly loud, which was Impressive for me.

Sarah Hess [01:50:22] And the guy next to me finally said it at about the same volume, and he was literally as close to the teacher, and the teacher heard him. And to this person's credit, they. When the teacher commended them for having the right answer, he said, that was hers. She said that. I was just repeating it.

Sarah Hess [01:50:44] Doing things like that is so helpful, making sure that we're being heard. Amplify those voices and give women the credit when you're repeating their ideas like that.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:50:58] That's a very good point. Yes. All right, so are you guys ready to move on to the next one? Does anyone else have anything? Yes. Okay, so the next thing we're going to talk about is modesty. Somebody else take it? You know what? I think Alicia should lead this one, because Alicia was the young woman's president before she left the church. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, look

Modesty Culture and Its Harmful Effects

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:51:21] at those porn shoulders on her.

Elisha Lee [01:51:27] I don't know if I feel confident leading this one. I mean, I have lots of thoughts, but I'm trying to keep it streamlined to the topic here. I mean, dressing immodestly isn't an invitation for sexual, you know, solicitation. Is that fair? I mean, we want to streamline this for. This is what we're talking about. I mean, I have so many stories about modesty that I could.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:51:58] I. I remember, like, the. I'll. I'll start then. You think. Think, Alicia. I know you have. I know you have so much. So, like, the. The. I rem. I left the church, and it took me a long time to stop wearing garments, which everybody on your podcast knows what garments are. Right, John?

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:52:19] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] Yes.

Sarah Hess [01:52:20] Okay.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:52:21] So I stopped wearing garments, and I remember, like, being in a tank top, which I. You know, I never thought of garments as oppressive when I was in the church. I thought they were beautiful. I thought that they, you know, that I was respecting myself by wearing them. I. You know, like, all these things. Right. That were very, very positive in my own mind. But when I took the garments off and I stopped wearing them, and I was just in the bathroom in a tank top, I, like, looked at myself in the mirror, and I remember the moment being like, it's okay. My body's okay.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:52:58] It's okay. Like, there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't need to be covered. It doesn't need to be. And you don't realize how oppressive underwear is. If it covers parts of your body and the message that it sends to your own self over and over and over, your body is a sin. Your body's a Sin. Your body's a sin. That's what it tells you over and over. And I'm still trying to deconstruct that. But that was an extremely poignant moment to look in the mirror and be like, oh, like, it's fine, you know, Anyway, I'll turn the time over to the next person.

Sarah Hess [01:53:36] I definitely, like, I. It's a. It's a thing for me because I feel like. I mean, I've been out for four years. I've been out for a little while, and I feel like I went through a period where I, like, reclaimed my arms. And I was like, my arms are okay. It's okay to show these. Like, there's nothing wrong with my arms. And I feel like now I'm ready to, like, move on to my legs. Like, it's okay to show my legs. Like, they are. Like, there's nothing inherently wrong with them. Like, when I saw, like, when we were looking at the topics and modesty was one of them, I immediately remembered the shame that came from other people also policing my modesty.

Sarah Hess [01:54:23] And I think that sometimes that's something that we struggle to lose. But I remember, like, an extremely uncomfortable time on my mission. My very first Zone conference. I was this little shell of a person, just. I desperately wanted to people, please. And I picked out my outfit for my Zone conference. I. I was super excited about it. I was just, like, super thoughtful. And the mission president's wife said, you need to wear something higher, because if you lean down, I can see down your shirt. And I was wearing one of those down east. Do you guys know, like, remember, like, the. Oh, yeah. Things that came up to, like, here?

Sarah Hess [01:55:06] And I was like, I. You know what? I could have cleavage in a freaking turtleneck because body is made, and I don't know what you want me to do. And so there's so much shame that comes from it that it's just. It's hard to shed that. It's so hard to shed that. And it just. Modesty culture. Oh, so many things I could say, but I'll let the next person go on.

Elisha Lee [01:55:34] Josh Weed had a really great tweet series. It was kind of a series. I'm. If you don't mind, I was just gonna. This is from Josh Weed. This isn't mine. He says, I'm a gay man who was raised in a heteronormative world. A part of this world I have always been baffled by is modesty culture. The main premise of modesty culture is that women need to dress in a way that doesn't provoke sexual response in men, which is insane. I think it is absolutely crazy that a man can look at a woman and say, I think you should wear something else, because seeing your skin makes me feel aroused and that arousal is strong and I haven't learned how to appropriately manage it.

Elisha Lee [01:56:14] So please change your clothes. This is bonkers. Especially when men then start to claim that a woman worth is more if they dress a certain way, if they cover their flesh, somehow earns a woman value. All because it doesn't evoke a sexual response in men. And then if a woman doesn't do this, well, now a man has a right to chastise her and call her name.

Elisha Lee [01:56:37] It goes on and on. It's so good you have to read it. It's just a gay man's perspective on purity culture and modesty culture. It's powerful.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:56:47] That last bit that was stated, that's exactly what I wanted to talk about, which is that in the ex Mormon community we still see this idea that a woman's self worth and a woman's worth in general is shown in how much she covers and how much she doesn't cover. So a lot of times this will only come out if people are deciding to get nasty with each other. Meaning mean. But I mean, it's there though. You can see it like, why should I listen to you? You're taking off your clothes, you're wearing, you know, this outfit. I can see your cleavage, I can see your booty, whatever. There's always a line of reasoning with regards to modesty and immodesty as to why we shouldn't have to listen to women, as to why we shouldn't take them seriously. How can I take you seriously when you dress like that?

Hannah Dunnigan [01:57:41] Yep.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:57:41] That's misogyny.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:57:43] Yep. And it, I think it's the. I think it's the heartbeat. I think modesty is literally the heartbeat of misogyny. It's where it all starts. Because if you tell a woman, I try to, I have this conversation with a lot of people, I say modesty culture. If you tell a woman that she has to dress modestly, explain to me how that is not making the woman responsible for the man's thoughts. Explain it to me. No one can because it doesn't. It simply makes the woman responsible for the man's thoughts, which, which makes rape culture, which begets, you know, sexual harassment, which. All these things, they all, they all start there, I feel like. Anyway, I mean.

John Dehlin [01:58:27] But explain for the men what you mean by rape culture, because there are Men who just have no idea what you mean by that.

Hannah Dunnigan [01:58:33] Who can Maggie go.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:58:37] I knew I should have looked down. You got this, girl. So rape culture is. It's basically the prevalence in our society of, of supporting non consent, of supporting men in objectifying women and feeling that women are their possessions to do with as they will. But we see rape culture in different areas. I mean, you know, I was just watching this morning, the SNL skit with Pepe Le Pew, and they were joking about how Pepe Le Pew was canceled. Pettic Le Pew is actually rape culture. Like if you think about it. And this is why, by the way, he was canceled, he being a cartoon. But the force that this little cartoon skunk did on women.

Margaret Frances Phillips [01:59:29] This, this. I'm going to kiss you even though you don't want me to. The, the total. I am the, the stereotypical caveman who. I'm gonna. I'm gonna hit the woman over the head and drag her back to the cave. And we used to laugh about these things. Things. And we used to think these things were silly. And that facilitates rape culture that, that has whole generations of people, men especially, growing up, thinking it's okay to treat women like that, it's okay to deny their consent. I hope that actually made sense.

Elisha Lee [02:00:00] Yeah, it's where everything that we're talking about starts.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:00:05] Yes.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:00:06] And it's sewn into our society. It's sewn in everywhere. I mean, like you said, the cartoon. I mean, it's everywhere in our culture. So it is up to us to try and bring awareness to that and to try and cancel that type of culture, because that's the only way we're gonna make our kids safer.

Elisha Lee [02:00:26] Objectifying a woman. It can happen in comments. It can happen. You know, that's where it starts.

Unwanted Advances and Assumptions Toward Ex-Mormon Women

John Dehlin [02:00:35] What are the types of assumptions that men make too often about expectations, Ex Mormon women, you know, what are the ways that they are just inappropriate and forward and let's just say in personal messages. Now, specifically, can you kind of just spell that out? I can think of a couple that come to mind, but do you guys want to just spell that out? What are the ways that ex Mormon men just make the wrong assumptions about. About a woman for the wrong reasons?

Elisha Lee [02:01:04] I haven't experienced this, but I know some other people on the panel have.

Sarah Hess [02:01:12] I mean, really, it's like, it's like because again, I am single and dating, like, just because I talk about that doesn't mean please come into my, you know, DMS and say, like, you know, basically make a play for it. I'M trying to collect my thoughts entirely around that question. Does somebody else.

Elisha Lee [02:01:41] This is a hard one.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:01:42] I can definitely.

John Dehlin [02:01:45] I feel like I probably asked a really blunt question that was probably shocking. Is that kind of true? Is this a really sensitive issue?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:01:52] We're talking about sensitive issues.

Elisha Lee [02:01:54] I think it's a fair question. It's just.

Sarah Hess [02:01:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elisha Lee [02:02:01] But I think it's different if you're. I mean, I'm a married woman. All the exmo men that I've interacted with have been respectful to me. But I've seen it. I've seen it happen in other instances. There's a lot of amazing men in our community, so. But these things are happening and they're prevalent

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:02:24] that they're not. Not being respectful to you, they're being respectful to your husband because of deference to the patriarchy.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:02:30] Ooh, that was nice.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:02:33] Yes.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:02:34] I'm a chronic friend zoner, so I don't have it. Too bad. You know, I just deflect it right to friend zone. You know, say something like very, very blunt.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] Let's spell out for the men the types of things we don't want to see anymore.

Sarah Hess [02:02:46] Okay.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:02:47] If any, if no one else. So I'm just going to be incredibly blunt here. I have seen, I haven't witnessed it myself again because I am. I belong to a man. So a lot of men won't approach me. But what I have seen amongst certain exmo men, especially on Reddit and other, you know, places, is that they seem to think it's an orgy and they can't keep it in their damn pants, which means they can't keep their fingers away from the keyboards.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:03:15] They think that because they feel sexually liberated, that women also feel sexually liberated. And if they don't, they should, like, it's. It's something that they should absolutely be doing if they want to truly back away from Mormonism, which is just absolutely hilarious to me. So in these guys heads, it seems, it seems to be the opening scene of Caligula, honestly, where they think that they're going to go into ex Mormon spaces and they're going to get some. And so they, they proceed acting as if getting some is owed to them. Because now we're so liberated. Now we're out here. Now I'm not looking for a wife. Now I'm not looking for a calling or whatever. I'm looking for some P word to. To quote Ben Shapiro, P word.

John Dehlin [02:04:06] Sometimes it's married men, right? Sometimes it's married men.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:04:08] Absolutely married men. Because here's the Problem, because we deconstruct Mormonism, we start to throw everything out. We start to get this idea that we don't need to be monogamous, that now monogamy is the chains of Mormonism. We conflate every little thing in our life with Mormonism as if monogamy is owned by Mormonism, which is hilarious if you think about it. So they come out there thinking, oh, yeah, yeah, we're all just, you know, this is, you know, woodstock in the 60s. We're all over here looking to hook up with each other. And the weird thing is, is they have this so ingrained in their head that this is the right way that it should be that if you're a woman and you're like, no, thank you. Well, then you're a prude. Then. Then you're wrong. Then how dare you?

Elisha Lee [02:05:04] You're still attached to Mormonism.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:05:08] You need to do. And deferring to the patriarchy, this idea that men have the answer, that what men desire is the right way and what women are pushing back against is wrong. This is more gender roles. This idea that men have the right to lord it over, that men are where the buck stops with decision making. It's all the same crap all rolled into one.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:05:35] Yeah.

Elisha Lee [02:05:36] If everything men know about relations, it comes from, you know, being rooted in that patriarchy that they learned in the church. Then when they deconstruct, if they don't deconstruct, meaning take parts, disassemble them, keep this, throw that back, they're gonna throw the whole thing away. Everything associated with Mormonism, which. Which could be a reverence for a woman's sexuality or a reverence for, you know, they're associating it as part of the religiosity and not as just respect. So unless. Unless these dudes are working in corporate America where they got an hr, you know, overseeing their relations with women, where are they learning this stuff? And. And you see it. It's different in different men, but for those, maybe that are entrepreneurs or they don't have anyone overseeing their business, all of their respect for women, to them, in their mind, that's compartmentalized with part of the Mormon thing, and they've thrown that away.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:06:37] Well, yes, I completely agree, but I do want to say this too. We're talking about throwing away everything in Mormonism, but something I've noticed in the exmo community is that we are not exactly jumping to throw away the privilege that we had in Mormonism. So why would men want to throw away this patriarchal privilege that they were raised with. Why would they want to do that?

Elisha Lee [02:06:59] Right.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:07:00] Of course they're going to hold on to that. Of course they're going to hold on to the idea that their word is law, that they are above women, that they get to decide what women do. Of course they are. It's the same with white people in the ex Mormon community. Of course they're going to hang on to that privilege.

Sarah Hess [02:07:14] Yep.

Elisha Lee [02:07:15] And that's why it's so dangerous. Keeping the things that are just so deeply ingrained and, you know, throw. Anyway. Throwing away the.

Sarah Hess [02:07:26] Yeah.

Elisha Lee [02:07:26] Could actually be helpful.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:07:29] Yeah. It's like the. There's a lot of men that state that, you know, like, white. White. A white male.

Sarah Hess [02:07:35] Right.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:07:35] I like. Well, the ones that are, like, active. Like, for instance, my husband. I love him, but I'm like, well, of course you want to be in the church. Like, it totally just serves you. Exactly. I was like, you're freaking white CIS dude. You know, I mean, like, it's. It. That's. Of course. But I mean, he. It's not. Not him specifically. He's.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:07:57] Sure.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:07:57] He's mild, I'm telling you. But. But he. But, you know, like, a lot of men, I'm like, well, of course it works for you. Like, why would you leave. Like, it favors you, you know, but it's. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead, sir.

Sarah Hess [02:08:11] So I gathered my thoughts a little bit back on that question. With the DM thing or the messages. The direct messages. And like, I guess the thing that I found, when men message me on TikTok, they assume I'm there for dating. They assume that I am welcoming or open to their advances. And look, I've made a lot of friends on TikTok that I'm deeply grateful for. And I'm the kind of person that I. Again, I'm shy. I'm kind of retiring. I'm a little bit of an introvert, and I struggle to make friends. And I've joked with some of my friends that, you know, like, they had to come into my DMs and, like, say, we're friends now. And, like, this is happening just because that's how it is. And so, like, I don't want to discourage people from making friends.

John Dehlin [02:09:08] Friends.

Sarah Hess [02:09:08] Dm, people that you want to be friends with. That's great. The problem comes when I get people in my DMs that are like, you're here. Like, I've heard the joke that TikTok is now a dating app. And I'm like, no, that's not what I'M here for. And I get a lot of people in my DMs that assume that maybe I am.

Sarah Hess [02:09:29] And even if they don't, they're not contacting me because they want to date me. Maybe they want to comment more on my appearance. It almost gets scarier when it's in my DMs, because nobody else can see that unless I screenshot it and share it somewhere.

Sarah Hess [02:09:46] Don't do it. Like, just, if you want to be friends with somebody, be friends with somebody. But then that's important that you don't comment on things like their appearance or flirt with them there unless, you know, like, it's consensual, you know, when you feel objectified.

Sarah Hess [02:10:06] Yeah. Yeah. And so it's because I'll get DMs that are like, they just open up with, hey, beautiful. And I'm like, you're coming in at me real strong right now. You're commenting on my appearance. You're assuming I'm okay with you flirting with me, because that's what you're doing when you say, hello, beautiful, as an opening line. And I'm not here for dating. If I want an app for dating, there's a hundred dating apps that I can go and use. This is not one of them.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:10:36] And I think. Don't you think it has a lot to do with intent, too?

Sarah Hess [02:10:40] Oh, yeah, absolutely. And as a man, you know. You know when you're DMing me, and

Hannah Dunnigan [02:10:45] we also do know, like, we can read it between the lines very easily.

Sarah Hess [02:10:50] Yeah. And you like. And that's another thing, too. I'm learning to trust my guys because, like, I mean, there have definitely been moments where I was like, well, this person. Because I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I try to say, oh, they're just being friendly. I joke that my baseline is that somebody's only interested in me as a friend. But then there's always my gut. And I know, and I'm trying to learn to trust that a little bit more. But I just, again, that going into my DMs, the stuff that you say there gets scarier for me because not everybody can see that. And then I feel more pressure to be nice to you because I'm just trying to get.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:11:31] Leave me alone. It's a very real cornering. Yeah.

Sarah Hess [02:11:35] Yes.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:11:36] Yep. All right, so, you guys, let's talk a little bit about sex shame.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] Oh, real quick. And I just want to make sure this gets mentioned. I. I hear that there are. Are way too many ex Mormon men that just assume that an ex Mormon woman wants to be a part of a threesome that, you know, that they want to swing, you know, or like you've already said that they will want to, you know, be sexually active with any guy that wants to send them a message for some reason. So I just want to sort of say that out there. Is that a thing? And is that a problem?

Sarah Hess [02:12:16] Yeah.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:12:17] And you're not saved if you're lgbtq. I've actually, I've had a few people in same sex relationships, like lesbians, tell me that they have received DMS with people, like with men basically joking around. Oh, can I watch? Can I listen? Even if it's a joke, which we can tell when it's not, not. It's not funny.

John Dehlin [02:12:42] Don't joke about threesomes. Don't joke about swinging. No people.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:12:46] No period.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:12:48] No. Especially when you're going into the DMS because it really feels like you're. Here's. Here's my suggestion. If you're going to DM a woman, act as if you're walking up in a dark alley to this woman. How would you, how would you approach her? Don't corner her in that dark alley and start saying, hey, beautiful. Like, how would that look like? Just think about that picture that. Hey, hot stuff. You know, like, how I like your hair. Let's not be a creep. Instead, go up to her, be like, hey, you know what? I'm. I just wanted to reach out and say, really put yourself in that dark alley with that woman when you DM her. Really, really test it out in your head what you're gonna say.

Elisha Lee [02:13:34] That's a great suggestion.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:13:36] Yeah, definitely.

Sarah Hess [02:13:37] Yeah, I think that's great. Love that.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] Thank you.

Sex Shaming, Sex Work, and Victim Blaming

Hannah Dunnigan [02:13:41] All right, any other questions or thoughts on modesty, you guys? Okay, so let's talk a little bit about sex shaming. I think this goes right into the stuff that we're already talking about. I have seen myself, I have seen sex shaming online in the ex Mormon community.

John Dehlin [02:13:59] What is it? What is it? Define it.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:14:01] So, okay, so basically, like, other. I don't like the. It's the same as like, okay, so if you're in, in high school and there's a girl that you know, she might be more sexually active than other people, right? Than most, Most kids her age or whatever. And then everyone calls her bad names. I don't even like saying words like this. Right.

Sarah Hess [02:14:26] Me too.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:14:26] You know, they. It's like, you know, sex shaming. It's, it's, it's, it's making a negative story Surrounding that person because they're more sexual than other people. So, like, for instance, thirst traps. Okay. Like, just because I don't do thirst traps. And I wish I could do that, but, like, I can't. But, like, you know, I think it's really beautiful and it's really empowering and awesome. But, like, for someone to say that that was, like, to make a negative story surrounding that person because they're being sexual or, like, that's how I see sex shaming. But please, everyone else, add your thoughts on that, because there's much more to it.

Elisha Lee [02:15:08] To me, it's kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. Right. Like, I don't know the expectation anyway. I don't know. I lost track of what I was gonna say.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:15:21] Oh, I. I think I get what you're saying. You're saying that it's shaming you.

Elisha Lee [02:15:23] Shame on you.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:15:25] Like, like, you're rude.

Elisha Lee [02:15:27] Shame on you. Yeah, like, shame on you for doing that. You asked for it. You asked for those comments. I mean, we did just see that. We just saw that, you know.

Sarah Hess [02:15:36] Right.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:15:36] Well, yeah, it's sex. So sex shaming and slut shaming, I think are the two. The. The word. They're. What are the words? They're the same thing. Right? So sex shaming and slut shaming, especially in this regard with exmo men, it's. It goes back to consent. It goes back to this idea that because you're yourself, you ask for it, and modestly, or naked even, you're asking for it. Like, because.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:16:05] But. But it's more than that too. It's also, how dare you be overly sexual? Overly sexual. You're a mother. Why. Why are you putting naked pictures of yourself out there? You're. You're a wife. How does your husband feel about this?

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:16:22] That's a sort of slut shaming as well. I think it's really interesting too, because I think it's important to bring up that you cannot separate sex and slut shaming from sex work. You can't do it. So a lot of ex Mormons still have very puritan ideas about sex work sex work ranging from stripping to, you know, selling the goods. I don't really know how to say it. I don't want to, you know, get you censored or anything.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:16:56] It really is a broad umbrella, sex work. And when you are raised in such a puritan culture and religion, you have these ideas in your head about the type of person that would engage in that sort of thing for money.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:17:16] So you decide this person is Now, XYZ all bad, of course, because they are posting pictures of themselves naked because they are selling themselves. Or, you know, that's probably a horrible euphemism, and I apologize for the offense. But something along those lines where we've decided that a woman's sexuality in particular is not her own and that the way that she uses it is always open for our interpretation about her as a. As a person. That's how we morally judge her as a person. I mean, this goes back to when we were Mormon and young women's. They would chew a piece of gum and pass it around.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:18:02] Who would want that piece of gum after it's been in someone else's mouth? Right? It's more turning women into an object into something. It's dehumanizing women to this point where all they are worth is the sum of their parts. And if the sum of their parts has been used for things that you perceive as dirty, then they're dirty and unworthy. So we no longer need to care about them. They no longer have consent. Right. They no longer have a right to say no.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:18:33] So they're no longer human in our eyes, is really what it comes down to. We don't want to admit it, but that's what it comes down to. This goes for sex workers. This goes for women who are unashamed of their sexuality, who are unashamed to show it, be it thirst traps, be it speaking openly about sex, whatever. It goes for all of them. We dehumanize them to the point where they don't have a voice, they don't have a say. They're nothing to us but what we get from them

John Dehlin [02:19:00] really quickly. Just to kind of drill down a tiny bit, we're all raised in society and especially as Mormons, first of all, we're comfortable using this term prostitution, which is something that I still. Or prostitute, which I'm going to acknowledge. And I'm only saying those because I know that there's a lot of people that don't know this, that in 2021, those terms are now viewed as potentially or in fact offensive. That those aren't the types of words we should be using these days and that instead a more proper term is sex worker. So there's two things I want to ask about that. Why the change?

John Dehlin [02:19:41] What does the change mean? Why was that change made? And how can we change our minds to not just continue thinking that somebody who makes a living from sexual acts is not necessarily something that's just like, face value bad? I know that to many of you who have studied this, it's obvious, but if we don't spell it out, there's going to be people that don't even understand why they even need to start thinking another way about these sorts of things.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:20:14] Does anyone mind if I jump in on this because I love this topic?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:20:17] Yes.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:20:20] I don't want to give a history lesson, but I want to just say. I want to emphasize this. This. The reason why it's important to say sex work is because sex work is work. This is a. A legitimate form of employment. It is not. Just like I was saying with dehumanizing. When we use terms to this in this day and age, regardless of whether or not, like, why we started to use them to begin with, when we use terms like prostitute, when we use. When we use these terms, we're taking the work out of it in our social psyche, if you will. I don't know. It's late. We've been talking a while anyway, so we need to really emphasize the fact that sex work is legitimate work. That's why we call it sex work. That's one of the very important reasons why we call it sex work.

Elisha Lee [02:21:09] It's also in women's hands now. It used to not be in women's hands. It used to be in men's hands. And you worked for a man. And now that has changed.

John Dehlin [02:21:19] And if somebody's like, who says, wait, no, it's still bad. Like, lying's bad, stealing's bad, sex work's bad. If somebody's saying, how can we now declare that it's okay? How do you respond to someone who is like, no, it's still bad because it always has been bad?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:21:37] Well, that's someone's. That's like a belief paradigm. Like, it's like trying to convince a believing Mormon that that, like, Joseph Smith lied. It doesn't work.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:21:48] Right?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:21:48] So, like, I think. I think it's also, to reiterate what Maggie said as well, is, like, you say sex work, that's a job, but like, you say prostitute, that's a label, and that's a person. That's not a prostitute. That is a person who does sex work. So the minute we dehumanize people, people is the minute that we become very, very dangerous because it's like the church institution trying to dehumanize ex Mormons, it becomes dangerous because that is what divides people. That's what hurts people and divides people and allows people to hurt other people is when we dehumanize them. So I think. I mean, I haven't studied it a lot, but I think it's a label. That's why we shouldn't call them. That's why we shouldn't say prostitution or prostitute because it's a label.

Sarah Hess [02:22:41] I think, like, it's just the thing that comes to mind for me too is that especially when we use that, like you make that a label and then you say, oh, well, because this person chooses to do this with their body, they are less believable. Or they deserve my belief less because of a choice that they make with their body. That's not, that's not. Okay, Very good point.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:23:13] Very good point. I love all these things that have been brought up about sex shaming. Super poignant and really, really important. Does anyone else have anything to add to that part of the discussion? Feel like it's like beautiful. Spot on. Like, thanks, everyone for adding to that. So the last thing that we're going to talk about is victim blaming. So this, I think ties perfectly into, you know, sex shaming because we invalidate that person. We always, you know, if we're a perpetrator, if we're the person that think about, from the point of view of a perpetrator, we always want to invalidate that person who's, who's coming out and trying to speak and people who are victims, survivors of, you know, assault, harassment, whatever.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:24:00] I am a survivor of sexual assault and I know that as a survivor of sexual assault, you are in a position where the other person has the power. Mentally, physically, that person has the power. And it's so important for us when someone comes out. I can't remember where I heard the statistics, but a large percentage, I think it's like 90% or something like that, but don't quote me on it.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:24:30] Of people that come out and. Come forward with their abuse or the assault or whatever it is that has happened to them, they are telling the truth. So when we hear somebody, when we hear a woman tell a story and the story involves harassment, assault, believe them. 97% of women have been victims of sexual harassment. So believe them. That's. That's my biggest take home from everything, is listen to them and believe them.

Sarah Hess [02:25:10] Yeah, this is something that I talked about a little bit earlier this week that just. Who does it have to be? Who does it have to be for you to believe them? Like, because I mean, it just again, that 97%. You talk to women ever. Like, every woman I've ever talked to shares that experience.

Sarah Hess [02:25:34] So, and it goes into that conversation that's had not just in the Ex Mormon community, but across platforms and across communities that, you know, this point that we all say, oh, well, I don't know anyone here would do that. I don't know anyone who would make those comments or sexually harass somebody or, you know, be sexually violent towards somebody. I don't know that person. Well, if 97% of us are experiencing this, you probably do.

Sarah Hess [02:26:08] And it's so important that we come to terms with that. And that goes back into that why it's important to speak up to your friends when you see them doing something that isn't okay. Because if you don't, who will? And then, you know, like, that person that they're objectifying, that person that they're doing that to is a person to somebody else.

Sarah Hess [02:26:34] And it just. It shouldn't even take that line of reasoning. It should just be, that's a person. Don't do it. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:26:47] It's really that simple, but so hard.

Elisha Lee [02:26:51] And social media has made this so complicated. I mean, obviously that's why we're having this conversation. This is about. This is. It's a social media problem. I think a lot of this stuff wouldn't happen in real life because it is so easy to objectify someone from behind the screen, you know?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:27:09] Yep. It's similar to, like, cyberbullying and stuff like that. Like, people have so much courage when they're behind that keyboard, you know.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:27:18] So I think a big deal that we need to acknowledge too, is that victim blaming can be really subtle. It's not always just, well, you. You were asking for it, you deserved it. A lot of times, victim blaming really comes in the. The form of, well, what was the conversation like before he sent the unsolicited pic? Or, well, how were you dressed? Were you flirting with them?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:27:45] These.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:27:46] These questions, trying to get to the bottom of it. I think men think that they're trying to be, I don't know, clever and, like, look for proof, which I can understand on some level, but when it comes to things like this, this. This isn't a court of law. We don't need this airtight evidence. This isn't csi. We need to listen. Especially if we know these women, we need to. And men, frankly, we need to listen when they say something to us about what is happening. Why is it that we're innocent until proven guilty, but when our own friends come to us about sexual harassment or sexual assault, it's. Well, let me go through this list of qualifiers before I'll Think about believing you. So there's a lot of ways that we dismiss victims, and in that dismissiveness, we're really, in turn, blaming them.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:28:44] And I want to add to that, too. That being, like I said, being a survivor of sexual assault, I would. I was 19, and I feel like it always is with me.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:29:01] Forever.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:29:02] That is always with me. And I can tell you, I can attest to the fact that no one wants to come forward and say that they've been a victim of sexual assault. Even if you've been a victim of sexual assault or sexual harassment, no one wants.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:29:20] Wants to.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:29:21] No one makes that stuff up because it is painful. I still remember vividly, vividly, the feeling of just telling someone I felt so much shame, and I can't even. That's why when I feel it, like, in a visceral way, when men mistreat women, it hurts so bad. And when things like this happen in our community, I feel a heavy, heavy weight on my chest. And, you know, I mean, that was half a lifetime ago. And still, I'm telling you, I will attest to the fact one more time. I'm gonna say it. No one wants to come forward and say that, and no one makes that stuff up. So please believe the women, believe the survivors, believe them. They're not lying. And I would say this as well.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:30:20] I understand being cautious.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:30:24] I understand.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:30:25] Trust me, I'm a paranoid person myself. But there comes a point when it's not just one or two women. It's a lot of women. And I don't understand how we can still go through the same questions that I talked about earlier. I don't understand how we can still ask how they were to blame, even if we're trying to do it politely.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:30:46] When it comes to a point of being multiple women, we need to stop turning the focus off of their claims and onto the. The predator that they're referring to. And there's a lot. One of the issues with victim blaming that. That kind of.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:31:07] It's kind of insane to me is that we will blame the victim and we will go through so many mental, like, so much mental gymnastics before we'll even get to questioning. Well, how could the perpetrator have been to blame? It's like a foreign concept to us. It's like knee jerk is going into victim blaming.

Recognizing and Stopping Sexual Harassment

Sarah Hess [02:31:31] I think, like, another thing that

Hannah Dunnigan [02:31:35] if

Sarah Hess [02:31:36] somebody is saying, like, this is something that happened to me, don't try and explain it away. I guess the best way that I can illustrate that is that I've also been a Victim of sexual assault. And I remember, I just, when I finally felt like I could tell people about it, they made excuses for it. They said, oh, well, you, that didn't happen to you. You're saying that that's what it was because your family's Mormon. And so to be acceptable to them, that's what you're calling it. And it's like, no, don't explain it away. Listen to what I'm saying and I'm telling you my story. And listen to in.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:32:28] And that's the crazy thing to me too is that you can, people can sit and watch sexual harassment happen and then blame the victim. Still, I, you know, assumptions that flirting is happening. You know, I don't care if flirting is happening. I don't care if she stripped down naked and did a little dance. That still doesn't constitute her, that still doesn't allow harassment. Like you still shouldn't be harassing freaking women. It's really that simple. So this idea that we can come behind these women who are like, okay, that, that was, that was a lot. That was, you know, and this is happening to me. Even if we freaking saw it and say, well this is why it's your fault.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:33:15] And it happens all the time. It happens all the time. It is a huge problem in society. In ex Mormonism. In Mormonism, it's everywhere. And it's our job to stop trying to make excuses for the people that are perpetrators and start listening to the people that are survivors.

Elisha Lee [02:33:37] John, are you wondering if there's some ambiguity in the online space for men on what would be classified as harassment? Do you think it would be helpful to include a couple of examples, like

John Dehlin [02:33:54] other than what we've been talking about already?

Elisha Lee [02:33:56] Well, like sending unsolicited nudes.

John Dehlin [02:33:59] Yeah, let's list it all.

Elisha Lee [02:34:01] Sending. You know, anytime you're sending a message that objectifies where you're, it's just about her sexuality. Like if you're in someone's DMs thinking sister, daughter, friend, not sexual partner from the get go, I think that's a, I think that's a boundary. Sending nudes is a good one to be aware of because I've been talking to my college age daughter who's here and just kind of getting some of her thoughts. And like receiving unsolicited nudes nowadays is like pretty common and I, I consider that a form of sexual harassment.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:34:41] Well, and honestly, here's the thing too, is that so many men will try and say, well, I mean the consent was implied. No. Unless she straight up said, hey, send me some nudes. Or hey, you know what? I'd love to see that eggplant

Hannah Dunnigan [02:35:02] irl. Yeah, it's, it's not consent.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:35:08] I don't care if she said, oh, hey, good looking man, I wonder what you look like naked. That's actually not consent. That's a question. You don't have to answer it.

Sarah Hess [02:35:17] And it doesn't matter what you've seen or what she supposedly sent you. It doesn't give you the right to send something to. I think like yes means yes. That's, that's just bottom line, there should always, like, if there's not enthusiastic consent, if there's not, if it's not an enthusiastic yes, don't do it.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:35:46] And it's okay to ask too, for a follow up. Hey, bro, send me some nudes. You sure you want me to send you some nudes? Yeah, bro, send me some nudes. Okay, there you go. But it really should be that clear. It really should be that clear.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:36:03] There's no implied consent.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:36:05] No, there's no, no, there's no, not with sex.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:36:07] No. Or sexual harassment or anything like that. There is no implied consent.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:36:11] And none of the 50 states does implied consent work for sexual stuff.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:36:16] It only applies if you're dead and you need life saving intervention. That's it.

John Dehlin [02:36:23] So ex Mormon dudes do not send naked pictures of yourself, period, unless you have very explicit and enthusiastic consent and double check and make sure. Otherwise, just don't do it. Don't do it.

Sarah Hess [02:36:41] Honestly, it's gonna win you so many points like to double check. Like, it's gonna win you. So.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:36:53] Yeah, I mean, yes, I agree for sure.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:37:02] And her responding with jokes or. We talked about this already how women like to respond to try and just like, okay, no, it's good. Like to make sure that it's okay that it's safe. Her responding was, oh, thank you. That's not consent either. That's not, that's not going back and saying, oh, see, she wanted it. No, no, that's not how that works. Yep.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:37:29] And it carries over to like we're talking about, you know, two different things. Sexual harassment and, and assault. But it's just, it's, I mean, it's so related. It's so related because it's very black and white, you know, I mean, it just, just, it just is and, and it's just not.

John Dehlin [02:37:47] Okay, so if you're changing the scenario now, if you're dating a woman and you know, you want to make a move or whatever, you don't make moves without explicit consent?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:38:01] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:38:04] With a hell yes and a high five. I've heard

Hannah Dunnigan [02:38:09] what Sarah.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:38:11] Yeah, I'm gonna use it on my daughters.

John Dehlin [02:38:17] There's no such thing. There's no such thing as intoxicated or drunk consent that doesn't exist.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:38:23] No.

John Dehlin [02:38:24] Or asleep consent. Right?

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:38:27] No.

John Dehlin [02:38:28] And consent doesn't mean in perpetuity, forever.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:38:34] It's something that you get consent every time. Every single time.

Sarah Hess [02:38:38] That it took me a while to understand because they're teaching consent now in a way that they didn't even teach me. I mean, like, I'm 32. Like, I'm not that old. They didn't teach it to me like they're teaching it now. And I didn't understand it as I should have understood it, honestly. But, like, if you have to convince somebody that's not consent, if you have to talk them into it, that is not consent.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:39:05] That's coercion.

Sarah Hess [02:39:07] And that's not something I understood. Even that took me a long time to learn and understand. And I. When I realized that, I was like, well, okay, then, you know.

Elisha Lee [02:39:18] Same, same Sarah, if you're.

Sarah Hess [02:39:21] If.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:39:21] If you're a man and you're having to keep bugging her for it, keep asking her about sending a nude, that's not consent. When she finally says yes, yes, you've basically backed her into a corner. It doesn't even matter if you're threatening her or not. A perceived threat is a threat. And that is something that we have to understand. But what you were saying, John, about how consent once doesn't carry over. Absolutely true. And a lot of people don't know, and I'm shocked by this, but it's worth saying. You're allowed to say no to your spouse. You can revoke, not even revoke consent. You have to give consent each time that you do anything with your spouse sexually. Your spouse is not owed sex.

John Dehlin [02:40:06] Spousal rape is a thing.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:40:07] Exactly. In Mormonism, it's even a higher risk because basically the. The. The doctrine is. Is like a. It's like a sewn in codependent relationship. Like, it's like you. The man and woman are one and the man cleaves to the woman or whatever that scripture is. Or, you know, so. So it's kind of just written in there that. That you're owned. You're owned.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:40:35] Your.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:40:35] Your body and yourself and who you are is owned by your husband.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:40:39] One flesh.

Sarah Hess [02:40:41] Yep.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:40:41] And it's. It's very dangerous. It's a very dangerous teaching. And I have known so many women who have been extremely hurt by that.

Sarah Hess [02:40:50] I think a lot of us were conditioned to be people pleasers in the church. And so many times, like, I know, like, for me, my indicate, like, my urge is to make the other person comfortable because I've been conditioned to be a people pleaser. And that's not like, I cringe.

Elisha Lee [02:41:16] Yeah, absolutely. I identify with that 100%.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:41:21] Yeah, me too. Me too. So I think that we have gone through all of our subjects pretty well, and maybe we could just wrap up with. Does everyone just want to kind of give closing remarks? That's kind of a joke. That's what you would say in a church meeting.

Closing Reflections and Believing Survivors

John Dehlin [02:41:38] I want all of you to get the last words. So can I just throw a couple things in really quickly?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:41:42] Of course.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:41:42] Course.

John Dehlin [02:41:43] Okay. I, so I, really. Well, first of all, I want to thank all you guys so much, all you women for coming on and being willing to help educate us. Being vulnerable, this isn't easy. Being strong, being thoughtful, wise, this is just so wonderful. And I'm so glad we did this, this, and I'm so grateful to all of you for taking your Sunday evening when there's a lot of things you could be doing and, and helping us get educated when we should have, should be knowing this by now and, and learning about this and doing it without the need of any podcast. So thank you.

John Dehlin [02:42:29] I, I really wanted the focus of today to be for the men and specifically for ex Mormon men. And I do want to just say something that's probably obvious to everyone, but I'm just going to say it because I think it's fair.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] I've received unsolicited graphic photos from women before. I've been. Women have made unwanted sexual advances to me. You know, pretty much everything we've talked about applies to everyone. Right? But I'm really glad that we focused today on men because that's, I think that's the biggest need and I think men are the biggest offenders. But I, but, but are you guys all, I think you're all in agreement that these are rules that pretty much apply across the board, men and women. I don't want men to be able to say, well, you guys didn't mention that women can do this too, right? We could all just agree, stipulate that, that it, it can't happen.

John Dehlin [02:43:27] I, I, I have had two of my children have experienced sexual assault. Both are women, and it's a father's worst nightmare. Well, one of the worst things that a father can have to deal with, and that doesn't even Hold a candle to what the actual women are experiencing when they're experiencing sexual assault or rapid rape, as the case may be. So I just want to say how, you know, how serious this problem is of sexual assault and rape and abuse and all the other things that we've said, and it's super serious.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] I did a podcast on, on rape and assault and consent a while back, and one of the most disturbing things I ever heard was that, you know, 1 out of 100 rapes or assaults get reported, and out of the 1 out of 100 that get reported, only 1 out of 100 end in conviction.

John Dehlin [02:44:41] And those numbers are really, really awful. And I'm sure I'm not getting the numbers perfect, but just, just get the general sense that most people are never going to report. And if they do, they do that knowing that there's a very low chance anything's going to end in conviction. And what was said in a really dark way was if you're going to commit a crime, rape or assault is one of the best crimes to commit because it's so infrequent that there's a conviction, which is one of the, one of the single worst things I've heard in the past 20 years.

John Dehlin [02:45:14] And so, yes, why would anybody make this up? Why would anybody invent a sort of thing? Why would someone invent false accusations? And so this movement sprung up, which, which is, needs to be the focus for today, which is, you know, believe, believe women.

John Dehlin [02:45:36] Because, because the instances where, where someone's gonna just go out on a limb and make a false, you know, make a, make up an allegation, who would, who's gonna benefit from that? The, the, the person that's gonna benefit from that is gonna be so rare that just belief needs to be the default. So I want to back that. And, and I'm glad that that's where the conversation focused tonight.

John Dehlin [02:46:01] You know, you guys asked me to give feedback and I'm, you know, I'm just gonna say this is something near and dear to my heart because everything that I've said is true and I've experienced it with my own children. And it's an epidemic.

John Dehlin [02:46:15] And what's tricky is occasionally, rarely, but I would feel like we were irresponsible and would probably invite scrutiny if we didn't acknowledge that there have been, in the history of mankind, there have been false allegations. And I say that not to take away from anything that we've already said, because all of that's true. And in addition to me being, you know, me making Mistakes and me being the victim of a lot of the things that we've said. I know that occasionally there are false allegations made, made for whatever reason. And so the term that I heard when we were doing.

John Dehlin [02:47:05] And this is gonna. I, I understand that what I'm about to say is gonna open a can of worms. And I'm actually not trying to now launch into this discussion because I think this is maybe a discussion for another time. The term that I heard in, in this conversation about rape was, was. It was modified at a slight bit, which is start by believing.

John Dehlin [02:47:25] So if somebody, if somebody reports a rape or an assault, you start by saying things like, I'm so sorry this has happened to you. This is terrible. How can I help? What can I do? And then at some point, police need to get involved, investigators need to get involved.

John Dehlin [02:47:45] Rape, you know, experts need to get involved again following the will of the, the consent of the person who is the victim, because they should be driving this sort of thing. But at some point they're, you know, we also have to figure out as a community how to work through allegations and, you know, also not allow, in the rare instance that it happens that someone does make a false allegation, allow, on the other hand, lives to be ruined from that. And I know that there are going to be some people that are going to be like, oh my gosh, we went three hours and now, John, you've blown it.

John Dehlin [02:48:31] But I think that if we just ignored the fact that there is a slight possibility that that can happen. What I don't think is good for this cause is for women to not be believed. And if, if in the rare instance that someone makes a false allegation that is not good for, for all the other worthy and legitimate accusations and, and claims. So all of you, I want you to feel free to either just tell me I'm wrong or tell me your wish I hadn't said that or beat me back, or you can, can. You can make any final comments you want in addition to what, whatever else, however else you want to end today.

John Dehlin [02:49:17] But I, I would feel bad if. I would feel like we would be inviting scrutiny if, if that wasn't at least acknowledged on some level. So, so I, I welcome any, any.

Elisha Lee [02:49:31] I think, I think it's, I think it's fair to show both sides. I mean, the purpose of today was to share guidelines with, you know, the men in our community and women and just to bring attention to this issue. I mean, it's been an issue. And John, you said that you've Noticed it since you've been running an online community. So I think it's important to bring attention to it. And I mean, I think it's fair to look at both angles of every story anytime you present something.

Elisha Lee [02:50:04] But I just want to invite everyone to this new idea of just opening your mind up to possibly being wrong and knowing that there's a lot of us here and we are making an effort to change things. And, hey, maybe you learned some things today that you didn't know before and you're going to make a difference and you're going to try and. And I invite those people to the table. So thanks for giving us this opportunity, John.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:50:40] Yeah, thank you. Thank you, John. I mean, you ruined it with the Latin. But I do want to say that false allegations do exist. Women can and do lie it honestly, it's a little paternalistic, I think is the word I'm looking for. Benevolent and sexism to assume that women are only incapable of just and righteous things and good thoughts and everything. Obviously these things are real. These things happen. But I do find that in conversations where women are trying to center themselves, center ourselves on the conversation about misogyny, about sexism, about sexual harassment, about sexual assault, we always have to do the. But then there's. But then there's. There's. There's always like the. We have to add to it. We have to almost take away from what we've said in just even a small way like that.

John Dehlin [02:51:33] What about ism? A little bit.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:51:34] What about. Right, but I mean, is it fair? Sure, but was it on topic? Maybe not. But here's the thing. What I love the most about false allegations is that they're pretty easily disproved. Lying about something like this is a kind of a big thing.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:51:54] But when someone is accused of a false allegation, instead of watching them, I highly recommend that you watch the person saying it's a false allegation. I recommend that you watch the predator that this person has alleged harass them or harm them in any way. Because a lot of times what you'll see is the proof in the pudding. You'll see how these predators react by trying to silence the women who speak out, the men who speak out. You will see the way that they kind of fly off the handle, that they start to make threats, that they start to even offer bounty in some cases, money here and there for information, for addresses.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:52:44] It's kind of insane. There's a lot of things that we can observe amongst the victims of predators and amongst the predators when we are curious about whether or not something is a false accusation. And I will say it again.

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:53:02] Maybe one woman making a claim, or man, maybe two. But when it comes down to handfuls, dozens of people making the same claims, false accusation becomes a little harder to believe.

Sarah Hess [02:53:20] That's kind of what I wanted to say. Maggie, honestly, was pretty much the same thing. There are earmarks, you can tell because there'll be multiple women sometimes. And like you said, I mean, if the person that's being, like, being accused of those things is then trying to defame those people who are making the accusation, that is a big red flag. That is a huge red flag. If they are trying to drag that person through the mud or make that person look really bad. Big red flag.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:53:57] So I think I just want to add my voice. So I don't know if. If you guys have seen the documentary on. What's that called the Cecil. Cecil Hotel documentary. Have you guys seen that? Anybody?

Margaret Frances Phillips [02:54:10] No, but I'm familiar with.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:54:13] Yeah, okay, so there's a. I won't spoil it, but there is a part in that show where there's all these conspiracy theorists that all kind of look into these things and they think that this. This, like, death metal band player was the killer of the person, right? And they just destroyed this person's life. Completely destroyed his life. And it ends up later where it's proven that he. That he didn't do it.

Sarah Hess [02:54:47] Right?

Hannah Dunnigan [02:54:48] So, like, a false allegation can hurt. So I will acknowledge that it can really, really, really hurt. But being a. As you guys know, I already told you, I managed. I have a company. I have. I manage a lot of people. So I get. A lot of times people come to me and they say, you know, they. They'll complain about another employee.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:55:10] And I am an evidence person. So I try really, really hard not to form an opinion about anything until after I see a lot of evidence. And I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and all that. So, you know, I think that we have. Just make sure. Like Alicia said, just make sure that you are willing to admit that you might be wrong. So if you form an opinion about something and then the evidence, it's kind of like being in the church, right? So the evidence, new information comes. So we're going to make decisions based on the best information that we have at the time.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:55:54] And sometimes we gather more information and we learn more things. And I would never. I would never try to discipline an employee unless I had really solid evidence that this, you know, I would never just, you know, take someone's word for it. So it's important. Like Maggie said, like Sarah said, gather all your information.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:56:16] Look at the action of the perpetrator in any given situation. Look at the actions of that person, look at the words of that person. If a person of color tells you that something is racist, then you don't tell them that it's not racist. You listen to that person and you learn from that person. So when someone tells you that they are, they are being sexually harassed, you don't tell them you're not being sexually harassed.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:56:48] You just don't. You don't do that. So gather the information, everybody. Always give each other the benefit of the doubt, but really look at everything. And people could be wrong about their opinions about anything. So I just want to say I really appreciate you, John, so much for bringing us on here. I think that we have all experienced misogyny. We all want to unlearn misogyny. Everyone on your screen right now, all of us, we all want to unlearn it. And I think that by bringing people on your podcast, and I would love to do this again, by the way, like, I would absolutely love to, but by bringing people on here and giving us a voice and really listening and giving feedback, I think it's so important.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:57:34] It's a step in the right direction. And I'm just really thankful for everyone who listened as well and to the podcast because it just means a lot to me personally as a. I mean, I spent 38 years in the church, so, you know, and everybody else too, has spent many years. So we really appreciate you allowing us to have this time to really talk about things that are important to us.

John Dehlin [02:57:58] Well, you four are wise and strong and courageous, just thoughtful women. And it was an honor for me to sit with you and try to listen and learn. And I'm really, really grateful that now we have at least one. At least one three hour podcast episode broken up on six important topics that can. And I want to just encourage listeners, viewers, whoever you're going to be able to go to the YouTube section and there's going to be these little time codes and anytime you're on TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or Reddit or whatever, and some dude says something inappropriate or sends a improper emoticon or shame somebody for what they're doing or is reinforcing roles, just send them a link to that timecode and say, hey, listen, you know, do it one on one if you can.

John Dehlin [02:58:56] You know, we don't want to create the backfire effect necessarily, but Just say, hey, listen, I know that you want to do better. I think you have an opportunity to learn here. Check out this podcast. Check out this section of the podcast. I think this will really help you. And let's just spread the word, spread the education.

John Dehlin [02:59:13] And I think what Maya Angelou once said, and I think Oprah was in an Oprah, Maya Angelou. When you know better, you do better. So let's help everybody know better so that we can develop community norms to do better. That's what I want so bad, Lee in this community. And you guys were just so lovely in how you helped us all learn today, even though it really wasn't your job. So thank you.

Hannah Dunnigan [02:59:42] Thank you so much. And if anybody wants to know, like, we are all on TikTok, by the way. So any of my believing family members who are listening to this, this don't go to my TikTok. Do not. It is not. But I'm Exmo flow. And then you guys want to say your handles because I don't know if everybody did. So I'm Exmo F L O on TikTok.

Margaret Frances Phillips [03:00:06] And I'm Maggie in Babylon.

Elisha Lee [03:00:09] Faith Unraveled.

Sarah Hess [03:00:12] And I'm Vera, 1788.

John Dehlin [03:00:15] And I'm afraid to go back on TikTok.

Sarah Hess [03:00:20] You know, it's a pretty good place, honestly. Great thing. It's kind of my little been my happy space.

John Dehlin [03:00:27] One of the thing I love about Tik Tok, more ex Mormon Tik Tok is how many wonderful women are doing really brilliant, brilliant.

Sarah Hess [03:00:34] I feel like we've brilliant things.

Hannah Dunnigan [03:00:37] There are. It's like 80% women talkers and it is popular. Like people who are not Mormons and follow us. They care about what we're saying. It's crazy.

Sarah Hess [03:00:48] Yeah, they do.

John Dehlin [03:00:48] And by the time this episode airs, we will have just released Nuance Ho or Kara's interview. We've done ex Mormon Mindy in the past and I just who I love

Hannah Dunnigan [03:00:59] Nuance Ho is so funny. She is so funny. She's brilliant.

John Dehlin [03:01:06] And I just. What's that, Sarah?

Hannah Dunnigan [03:01:09] It's.

Sarah Hess [03:01:09] I wish I were as cool as she is.

John Dehlin [03:01:13] You are all super cool. All of you are super cool. And. And I. I was sad to see kind of things blow up over the past couple weeks because TikTok, ex Mormon TikTok has been so powerful and so beautiful and we can get it back to the way it was.

Hannah Dunnigan [03:01:30] It'll get there. It will.

John Dehlin [03:01:32] It'll get back.

Hannah Dunnigan [03:01:32] I believe that.

Sarah Hess [03:01:33] Yeah.

Elisha Lee [03:01:33] That's why this conversation is so important. And as you were talking, John I was thinking, thinking the Mormon Stories podcast community has been huge for me. Like, we didn't get therapy. We probably should, but these communities are an integral part of my deconstruction process. There are so many people in these communities just watching, just listening, holding on for dear life. They're still going every week. They don't know how to handle their family situation. So we have to get our shit together. Like, we gotta. We really. Because people really need this. And I just. Thank you so much. And that's why this is important.

Margaret Frances Phillips [03:02:16] We.

Elisha Lee [03:02:16] We need everyone to be on their A game.

John Dehlin [03:02:19] So. So ex Mormon TikTok, stand strong and, and go forward with strength and don't go anywhere, guys. Let's emerge like a phoenix from the ashes, stronger than ever. All right, thanks, everybody. You guys take care. And instead of making a Mormon Stories plug, go to these wonderful tiktokers. Like their stuff, follow their stuff, support progressive and post Mormon women. Whether it's year of polygamy, whether it's nuance ho, whether it's Lexi. What is it? Ex molecule. All of these wonderful women here, support ex Mormon women, content creators and like them, follow them, donate to them, encourage them, share their. Share their stuff. Let's just work hard to grow the participation, the representation and people of color and lgbtq, trans, non, non, binary. Let's become the diversity that we never had before. Let's become communities of diversity is my final call.

Hannah Dunnigan [03:03:36] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [03:03:37] Take care, everybody.

Hannah Dunnigan [03:03:38] All right, bye.

John Dehlin [03:03:39] Get some sleep. See everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.