Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 139

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] This is Mormon Stories. I'm John Dehlin. Today's interview is a bit unique in a few ways. First and foremost, it's unique because it was recorded three years ago and I never published it. The reason why I never published it was because it's an interview of a good friend named Heather who talks about her decision to join the church as a convert in Texas and ends up going to byu, marries in the temple to the son of a Stake president, but then later her husband leaves the church and. And she ends up eventually leaving it too. Now, why didn't I publish it? I didn't publish it for a couple of reasons.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] First, I didn't publish it because I felt like it was really edgy kind of out there, and I didn't want to turn people off and I didn't want to cause trouble. And in 2007, I was going through my own crises about my relationship with the church and what Mormon Stories podcast was about to be. And eventually, I guess I just got cold feet, didn't publish it, and ended up shutting down Mormon Stories for a long time. But I still think it's an important interview, mostly because I think Heather is a fantastic spokesman. She doesn't speak from a place of anger, she doesn't speak from a place of rage.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] She just speaks from the heart about what she loved about Mormonism and why she felt like she had to leave it and how that's impacted her life. But most importantly, she talks about things, mistakes that we can make when our loved ones leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And I think that those of us, you know, who try to follow the example of Jesus know that the admonition is to love everyone and to understand everyone. And I don't think that, you know, we'll ever be able to fully claim that mantle of Christian until we can treat those who have left the church with love and compassion. The final interesting thing about this episode is that there's a 10 minute loss of the interview, sort of eight to 10 minutes into the second part.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] So we did lose a bit of Heather's Heather and I's discussion about their disinfection process. And it's just, it was corruption on the hard drive and I've tried to retrieve it and, and I can't. So that's a bit of a bummer. But I think the, the core message still gets through.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] So with that, I just want to Say, I'm not putting this forward to convince people to leave the church. I no longer feel like it's my duty to push people either one way or the other. But I do think it's important that we learn to understand why people leave and learn how to treat them better, because I think that would be better for everybody. And so here is my interview with the conversion and deconversion of Heather, thanks for tuning in to Mormon Stories.

Heather's Background and Early Religious Life

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Well, Heather, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories podcast.

Heather [00:03:13] Well, thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Yeah. So tell us about how you a little bit about your background and how you came to join the church.

Heather [00:03:22] Okay. Well, I was raised in a family that were not members of the Mormon Church, not really any church until I was in my early teens. My mother was, I guess the best way to describe it would be to say a lapse Southern Baptist.

Heather [00:03:39] My father is atheist, agnostic, depending on the day, doesn't really have any religious belief at all. Was very open with us about that as we were growing up. When I was about 13, 14, we moved to a small town where my parents both grew up. And before that my father was in the military and so we moved about every year. So I'm sure that made it hard for my mother as far as finding a church to go to as well. But before that, we probably only went to church just for holidays and things like that.

Heather [00:04:14] When I was about 13 or so, I got a call from the woman who is the wife of the pastor of a little country church down the road, and they needed someone to keep their nursery during church services and they offered to pay me to do that. So I started doing that and we started going to church there. And about a year after that, my brother and I were baptized.

Heather [00:04:36] I guess we were saved born again Christians who go to Southern Baptist, and that's how they do that. And we started going to church there and we went pretty faithfully, especially I did until I graduated high school. So probably four or five years.

Heather [00:04:54] Every time the church doors were open, we know we were there. Sunday schools, church services, Wednesday night, Bible studies, church camps, all of that. And then when I graduated high school, I went to the University of Texas at Austin. I was really excited about that.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] Go Longhorns.

Heather [00:05:11] Yeah, Go Longhorns. And I looked for a church to attend up there. I was still interested in going to church. I was very sincere in my belief, was still very interested in being active,

John Dehlin [00:05:25] looking for a Baptist church.

Heather [00:05:26] Not necessarily the church that I went to considered itself Southern Baptist, but the Southern Baptist Convention is a lot looser, I think, than what a lot of LDs people would consider. It's not like being Catholic or being LDS where there's a very centralized government and everything's been fairly the same no matter where you go. And there are some central tenets, but they have a lot of independence. And so I was never, I never really considered myself Baptist, you know, just so much as Christian.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] Right.

Heather [00:06:01] And so it wasn't a really big deal. I went to some, you know, non denominational churches, some Southern Baptist churches, some Methodist churches. I just never felt comfortable anywhere. And I'm not sure if I just finding the right church or if I come from a very small church and some of the larger churches were overwhelming. But I never found anywhere that I really felt comfortable.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] I have a quick question. You know, I went to BYU and it was all Mormon and I was all into it, but I've often thought back, if I hadn't have been LDS and if I'd gone to like University of Texas or Texas A and M, you know, most people, their college time is party time. What made you seek religion when you were in this new world of fun and guys and opportunity?

Heather [00:06:51] I think you underestimate yourself, John. And I think a lot of. I hear that a lot from LDS people and I, if I hadn't been born in the church, I would have been this horrible person or I would never have gone or, you know, I would have just done all these, you know, just horrible things and I have a hard time believing that. I like to think people are better than that, but I'm not. No, I know. I understand your question.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] No, but you're not saying that I underestimate myself. You're saying that I underestimate non Mormons.

Heather [00:07:21] Well, yourself. I mean, you said that. You don't think. I don't know, maybe both.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Yeah, so I think that's a good point. So Mormons think that they're the only ones who would be moral and not party based.

Heather [00:07:31] Yeah. The church does not have the corner on the market of morality. I would definitely agree with you there.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] Okay, that's a fair point. Okay, fair point. Very fair point.

Heather [00:07:39] I don't know, I don't know if it was just a personality thing. I don't know if it was God. I don't know. I did grow up in a very small town where socially church was a focal point. The friends that I had. And it wasn't that I was necessarily a good eat two shoes, wonderful person. I was a good kid. You know, I didn't Drink, have sex, do drugs, any of those horrible things that parents worry about. But at the same time, there wasn't a lot to do in the community other than church. Most of my friends went to church. Most of the social activities in the community revolved around church. And so it wasn't difficult for me to be involved in. So maybe that was someplace that I just felt comfortable seeking my social outlet.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Beautiful. Okay.

Heather [00:08:27] Yeah. I would say, you know, that I did believe in God, that I, you know, was sincere in wanting to be baptized. When I was young, I did read my Bible, you know, and so I was sincere in my belief as well. But, you know, socially, that was someplace I probably did feel very comfortable.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Okay, so. So what led you to the LDS Church?

What Drew Heather to the LDS Church

Heather [00:08:48] Well, to back up, when I was in high school, I had a friend who is lds. There's a very small branch in the town that I grew up with, which I think is part of a larger ward in another town now. I think it got disbanded. But I had a friend who was lds, so a year older than me. And we had mentioned the church. I mean, people knew, coming from a small Bible Belt community, that they were the Mormons. And so we had talked about things kind of vaguely, a few times, actually. Went to a state dance with her once when I had been a sophomore or a junior, because I'm sure I was 16 or she wouldn't have invited me, but I went to a steak dance with her.

Heather [00:09:28] So I was friends with her. And after my first semester of college, I came home for the holidays, and I was at high school basketball game, and I ran into her and her brother who had just returned from his mission.

Heather [00:09:44] And so we were just catching up on things. And he was talking about how he had just gotten back from his mission, and she was talking about byu, where they had both gone to school. And I think I saw them again at a friend's New Year's Eve party.

Heather [00:09:59] And when I got back to school, I don't remember what exactly I had a question about, but I had a question about something about the church that they had mentioned. And so I emailed my friend and I said, hey, if you don't mind, if you don't want to tell me, that's okay. I was just wondering. I have a couple of questions about your church.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Now, these friends back home.

Heather [00:10:16] Yeah, these are from back home.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] Was there something about them that interested you or intrigued you or drew you to them?

Heather [00:10:24] No. I mean, my friend, her name was Ann. She was just a sincere friend. I mean, she was my Friend. We hung out. We had other things in common. And, you know, it wasn't anything particular that I can think of. It wasn't, you know, even a curiosity about Mormonism particularly. It was just that, you know, I knew that she was my friend and that she was sincere in that, and it was something that had come up in conversation and that I felt comfortable asking her about knowing that she was my friend and that it felt safe.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] Right, okay.

Heather [00:10:56] So. Okay, I know. Yeah. Nothing exciting, but I emailed her with some questions, and she said, you know, I'd be happy to talk to you about whatever you want to talk to, but. But I believe there's an institute nearby, and there's people there that could talk to you if you want to drop by or call. They'll be happy to talk to you about stuff, too.

Heather [00:11:16] And a week or two later, I was on that side of campus. The institute at UT is just a block off campus. And I had the address with me, and I was like, you know, I think I'll pop in. Don't have anything else to do this afternoon. And so I walked in the doors of the institute, and they had a secretary sitting out front. And I said, you know, are there any missionaries here? And she was like, no, do you have an appointment? You know, they're not here right now. They're out. And I said, no, I have a friend who's a member of your church.

Heather [00:11:48] And she said, there are people here that could talk to me. And I was just wondering if they were here, if they had time to talk. And her eyes got real big, and she sat up really straight. She was like, oh, let me get your name and your phone number, and I'll have them call you. I think they did, within probably 24, 48 hours, call me. So she was very excited.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Yeah.

Heather [00:12:12] So anyways, probably two days at the most, I got a call from two very nice sister missionaries, Sister Nielsen and Sister Johansen, and started taking the discussions.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] Okay. And were the missionaries effective?

Heather [00:12:32] Oh, yes, they were wonderful. Wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] What was so good? What made them effective for you?

Heather [00:12:39] I don't know. I don't, you know, not. I haven't had that much experience with missionaries. Being a convert, you know, not being in the church from young, my gut feeling is that sisters being a little bit older, being a little bit more mature, and the fact that it's not so. I don't want to say required, because technically no one's required to go on a mission, but it's really expected. They're there because they wanted to Be.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Yeah.

Heather [00:13:09] And I think that extra two years, there's a big difference between a 19 year old boy and a 21 year old.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Oh yeah. Probably four years. Probably four years of maturity, right?

Heather [00:13:19] Yeah. And so I think that helped a lot. And Sister Nielsen, I don't want to use her first name, but she is just a wonderful person. And I think just anything that anyone talked to her about, you know, in even day to day life, they would see that she was a wonderful person. I actually ended up living with her for about a year and a half later when I went up to byu. Just. She's just a really good person.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] So just honest, sincere and kind.

Heather [00:13:46] Oh yeah. And you know, with any of the, of the problems that I've had with the church or, you know, the missionary program or anything, I never could hold any of that against her. I don't feel like anything that was misleading she would have never done on purpose or said on purpose. I believe there's a lot of missionaries out there like that.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] And what about the discussion? So how much of it was just these missionaries and how much of it was the content of the discussions?

Heather [00:14:14] The discussions. I mean, I read all of the Book of Mormon in like, I think, I think the discussions was like five or six weeks. And I had read the Book of Mormon within a month.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Holy moly.

Heather [00:14:25] And so I mean, I went home and I read and you know, they would talk about things and I sincerely prayed about it. And I was serious, I was going to decide and I was going to learn. I was going to figure out if this is what I wanted to do. And they were. I mean, if I had any questions. It's been a long time since I took the discussions. I should have gotten out my pamphlets and look at them. I remember talking about tithing and I was like, that's okay. We did that at my church. I understand that. Jesus Christ. I'm up with that. The temple families can be together forever. My parents are divorced and did not have the greatest marriage and that just seemed like a wonderful thing.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] So the strong emphasis on families was important to you?

Heather [00:15:05] Yeah, the families I remember.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] How did you feel about the Book of Mormon and how did you feel about Joseph Smith?

Heather [00:15:15] You know, there wasn't so much. I don't remember there being so much focus on Joseph Smith. I know that he was mentioned and, you know, the story of the golden plates and the coming of the Book of Mormon and everything.

Heather [00:15:26] I don't remember there being a lot of emphasis on Joseph Smith and I'm sure there was. I Mean, I'm sure they taught me whatever they were supposed to about that. I remember being more concerned and focused on the Book of Mormon, and that's why I was, you know, I was going to read this and I was going to know what this was about before I made a decision.

Heather [00:15:48] Yeah. So I really. I didn't know a lot about Joseph Smith at that point. I wasn't really concerned with it. I was going to, you know, if this book made sense to me then and I prayed and received an answer about the Book of Mormon, then I figured Joseph Smith must be okay if he came up with this.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Right. Yeah.

Heather [00:16:06] So I was just kind of. I mean, I just. I wasn't. The church focuses a lot on Joseph Smith, but I think coming from a Christian background, I wasn't going to be concerned with a man.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] Sure.

Heather [00:16:17] I was going to be concerned with this book, which was supposed to be the Word of God. In the same way that I don't worry about who wrote what book of the Bible was concerned with the Bible.

The Book of Mormon and Path to Baptism

John Dehlin [00:16:26] So talk to us just real quickly about your experience reading the Book of Mormon and what you loved about it. It sounds like you were converted through the Book of Mormon and your relationship with the sister missionary.

Heather [00:16:37] Yeah, that's probably fair to say.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Did you feel the spirit? How did you get over?

Heather [00:16:45] I would say that, you know, I felt. I would say I felt the spirit when I read the Book of Mormon. As, you know, the church would define feeling the spirit. I felt good about it when I was reading the Book of Mormon. I felt coming from a Christian background where, you know, the Bible has been written and it's closed and stunned, the idea of more revelation and especially coming from the Christian background where having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ was emphasized, you know, having more words of Jesus Christ and more teachings of Jesus Christ is an exciting thing.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Yeah, sure.

Heather [00:17:23] Because, I mean, I mean, coming from my background, this is what Jesus said and. And the Bible is closed and this is all you're going to get. And so having all these new things to learn, and I've always been someone who's enjoyed learning, I would stay in school forever if I could have someone pay for it. So that was a really exciting thing for me.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Okay, so the Book of Mormon and the sister missionary led you to baptism.

Heather [00:17:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] How about your church experience? Did you go to institute dances or meet friends?

Heather [00:17:54] I had friends at the institute. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Did you get love bombed?

Heather [00:17:58] Probably. I had some really good ward missionaries who really worked to make me feel included. I don't remember going to any state dances or a lot of institute social things, but I think I started taking the discussions in February, probably maybe early March. And so. And then I was only at ut, at that institute for a semester and then I went home for the summer. So it's probably only about a three or four month period. So I didn't have a chance to get too involved in the institute there. I mean, I remember framing home evenings and different, you know, fun things, going to see movies at people's houses, things like that.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Right.

Heather [00:18:43] But it was more. There were certain people in the institute that really. And I know that one of them was the ward missionary. And I have a feeling now looking back that some of the others probably were too. No one comes up and introduces themselves. Hi, I'm the ward missionary and my job is to make sure.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] My job is to get you in

Heather [00:19:01] the water and to make sure to be your buddy. I'm your assigned buddy. And I don't say that trying to be rude, but that's kind of how it is. And no one introduces themselves as us. But I look back and, and that's probably. There's a handful of people who really made an effort to make me feel included and to be my friend. And I didn't feel that it was insincere. They were generally nice people. But I remember just having those certain people who really reached out and were friends more than things I did with the institute.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] And did you have the definitive get on your knees and pray and get an answer or was it just more. The process felt right.

Heather [00:19:40] I did get on my knees and pray and felt good about it. I wouldn't say that it was a mind blowing spiritual experience or anything like that. I think it was more reading the Book of Mormon and feeling excited about that and feeling excited about the possibility of the church. The missionaries, especially knowing that I came from a religious background, I think emphasized that we're going to come and join this church and we're going to take the good things from your church and just add on to it and it's just going to be more good things. And so that made me feel more at peace, you know, in converting and. Yeah, yeah. And so. And so that helped as well. I lost my train of thought there.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Oh no, it's okay.

Heather [00:20:27] Yeah.

Life at BYU and Early Questions

John Dehlin [00:20:28] So you got baptized and where did it go from there?

Heather [00:20:35] I decided to transfer up to BYU after that first year at ut. I had heard good things about that. And my friends were up there,

John Dehlin [00:20:47] the former mission, my friend from high school

Heather [00:20:50] was up there and the missionaries, they had both gone to BYU before and were planning on returning. And I had heard good things and I thought this would be. I was very excited about the church and a good way to be in Utah and learn more about the church and have a chance to take these religion classes. And I guess it felt kind of like going to Zion and it was going to just be this great experience where I was going to learn everything.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] Yeah, sure.

Heather [00:21:16] Continue.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Absolutely. So how did BYU go for you?

Heather [00:21:22] Oh, goodness. BYU is a whole different world than Texas, than ut, than anything I think I've experienced up to that point or since, probably. Yeah, it was interesting. It was culture shock. It was very different. There are a lot of things that no one mentions to you when you join the church that I think some things are probably sidesteps and some things people just never think about. About telling you about.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] These are things that came out at byu.

Heather [00:21:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] Okay. What came out at byu? Well, first of all, let's start with the positive. What did you love about byu or if there's anything. I mean, I don't want to bias you.

Heather [00:22:06] There are things I enjoyed about byu. It was a smaller campus, and so it was.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] There aren't many universities where you could say that, but university.

Heather [00:22:17] I know that's what my husband always tells me because he was a freshman by. He gets a little offended.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] Yeah. It's not fun. Texas has what, 50,000, 50, 60,000 at the time.

Heather [00:22:26] It probably has more than that now.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Heather [00:22:30] It's more a sense of community. It's not even the amount of students, you know, ut. And it was a good thing. Like, I enjoyed that about UT. You know, you're one of 50,000. You've got hundreds of people in all your classes. You're just. You're kind of a face in the crowd and there's that anonymity.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] Sure.

Heather [00:22:48] And, you know, I enjoyed that as well. At byu, you live next door to the same people that you probably have a religion class with, and you also go to church with and you also have family, home, evening with. And so it does build that sense of community, which is a good thing, you know, especially for, you know, young kid going to college for the first time. It's nice to have that comfort and that community and that sense of family.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] Right.

Heather [00:23:10] You go off to school. So that's very different.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Sure.

Heather [00:23:13] And even though I wasn't a freshman in school anymore, it was kind of the first time I had that. That experience. Camaraderie. So that was nice.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] Okay, so what was Hard.

Heather [00:23:23] What was hard? It was I went from when I was at ut, I lived in a dorm where I had boys living on my floor, no curfew, anything like that. So I went from living in a dorm at UT to living in an apartment at BYU where I had way more rules than I had, you know, the year before. And that felt a little bit stifling. That was a little bit odd at first. I kind of. I felt like I was being treated like a child a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Now, this watched over my shoulder sound like a weird question, but was that because there were honor code things that you didn't want to obey or you were cool with the honor code, you just felt like it was. You're being treated like a child?

Heather [00:24:02] No. I mean, even when I was at college, I did not drink, I did not do drugs. I had a boyfriend the entire time I was there with that I did not sleep with. You know, I was really. I was probably pretty boring, especially by probably a lot of the standards in Austin. I was a pretty tame person. Just wasn't my personality to be crazy, but. And I think that was probably part of it, too. I was like, okay, I was a good kid. You know, I wasn't going to do anything stupid. I can have a boy sitting in my room on my bed and not get naked.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Interesting.

Heather [00:24:33] You know, and so. And especially knowing, hey, I'm a responsible person. Why are you treating me like I'm 14 all of a sudden? And I wasn't. I mean, I don't say that in an angry, resentful way. It was just kind of. It was almost confusing, especially, you know, where you, you know, you come from a church that talks so much about agency and so much about having choices and free will. Yeah, but you're not going to trust

John Dehlin [00:24:56] me to make any missions are the other places where that's where that's the feeling when you go on a mission. You just feel like, I can't even pick, you know, sometimes I can't even pick the music I'm going to listen to. I can't, like, read a newspaper sometimes. That's the only other place, in addition to byu, where you just feel completely controlled sometimes.

Heather [00:25:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Yeah. Okay.

Heather [00:25:20] I mean, it wasn't upsetting. It was just. It was odd and it was a little confusing.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] Okay.

Heather [00:25:28] I think the other. The other huge thing probably that happened when I went to BYU is a couple of weeks after I got there, I found out about garments, and I had no clue. And that was. That was probably. That was probably a little disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Okay, so you were. You converted to the church and had never heard of garments baptized?

Heather [00:25:47] I moved up to Utah. I had no clue. I was clueless. And I was actually. I was in the laundry room of my apartment complex one day, and there was a guy in there doing his laundry, and he dropped his garment shirt, and I picked it up and. And I happened to notice a marking on the chest, and I made. I don't remember exactly what I said. I made some joke about his sewing skills. This guy turned ashen.

Heather [00:26:12] I felt so bad for him. Now, in retrospect, he was just like. He took it from me real quick, and he was just like, these are my garments. And he was just. He didn't know whether to be confused or offended or is this girl just being very irreverent or is she really just stupid or. I could see all these emotions going across his face, and I was just kind of like, okay. And I just looked at him and I went back to my apartment and I asked my roommate, I'm like, what's up with him? What's going on? And she just kind of looked at me funny. And she tried to explain as tactfully as she could about temple garments.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Yeah, how did you feel after you learned what they were?

Heather [00:26:54] I was. I was just. That was hard. I think my heart just kind of sank into my stomach a little bit, and I was just like, okay, what did I just get into? Because, I mean, my family wasn't really happy when I joined the church, and they weren't really. Were really not happy when I decided to go up to Utah. And, you know, I had kind of. I don't want to say I cut ties completely, but, I mean, I had probably damaged some relationships in deciding to do this.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] What about garments made you think, uh, oh, what did I get into? Was it just.

Heather [00:27:28] It was just. Why would. That's. I mean, you're going to wear certain underwear for the rest of your life. That's kind of big. Why did nobody tell me about this? And what else. What are they hiding from me? What's really going on? You know, when we talked about the temple, nobody talked anything about wearing underwear or anything like this just supposed to be this great place where you go and commune with Jesus and you're going to be with your family. And it was just not so much the garments themselves. It was just. Why did no one tell me? This is kind of a big thing.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so how were religion classes at BYU for you?

Heather [00:28:09] I remember at the end of my first. What Did I take. I think it was the first Book of Mormon. It was either that or the doctrine. I think it was the first Book of Mormon class. And I went up to my professor. I took the class from Ray Huntington, and I went up to him in the end of the class, just almost in tears. I was like, I can't do this. I don't know anything. All these people have been in seminary their entire lives and gone to church, and I can just. I mean, I read this, but I was just really overwhelmed, and I was going to fail this class, and I was freaking out a little bit about it.

Heather [00:28:44] And he was so nice. And I really enjoyed those classes. It was nice to have someone sit there, I mean, because it was all new to me to have them explain, to go over and to listen to all this and to feel like I was really learning something.

Heather [00:28:59] And Brother Huntington was a wonderful man, and I ended up working for him for about a year as his teacher's assistant. And he was very, very helpful in understanding. And pretty much everyone that I encountered was. Was pretty nice and pretty good to understand.

Heather [00:29:15] I would go up and I would make a point to explain, this is all new to me. I'm a convert. What can I do? And I was willing to work hard, but they were all really good to work with me with that.

Heather [00:29:26] I enjoyed that. And that was one of the reasons that I decided to go up to byu. And so I think that worked out well.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Okay. So religion classes were okay.

Heather [00:29:39] Mm. The ward was a little different. That was a little bit. It was a little more uptight than it. Austin and UT are such a liberal hippie place anyway. I think you get a lot more.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] I don't know, bit of a culture shock.

Heather [00:29:58] A little culture shock. My first calling was to play the piano in Relief Society. That I didn't know how to play the piano. That was another shock, because I thought, the bishop is going to have this inspired revelation and tell me what I'm supposed to do to serve the ward. And this was going to be my first calling. I was just really hyped up and excited. And I went in and he sat down and he was like, okay, Sister, I would like to extend this calling to you to play the piano in Relief Society. And I was quiet for a second. I think my response was pretty much word for word with Bishop. I don't know how to play the piano, but I'll learn.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] Oh, my gosh.

Heather [00:30:32] I was going to learn to play the piano because that's what the Lord wanted me to do. And he just. He started backpedaling. He was like, no, no, no, Sister. He's like, you know, just give me 30 minutes and I'll call you back in. I think he ended up calling me to be the chorister instead. And he had gotten. I think there was someone else with my name in the ward, and he had gotten confused.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Was that a letdown for you? Were you expecting something different?

Heather [00:30:58] Well, I think I had a pretty good sense of humor about it. I was surprised, but I just had a really idealistic view of it going in.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] Which was what?

Heather [00:31:12] I mean, that the church was going to be perfect and good, and this is the Lord's one true church on the face of the earth. And that was probably youth and naivety, too.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] Sure.

Heather [00:31:23] But I think. I mean, you're also led down that path to believe that the bishop, the Lord has called him and he's going to give you a calling, and that all of this is directly inspired by the Lord, and he's praying over all these callings. And so it's kind of. It's just kind of a mixed message.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Sure.

Heather [00:31:41] And so it's trying to rationalize it all out and find a balance and figure out where things actually stood.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Yeah, I could see that. So I noticed that you studied under one of my favorite professors at byu, Bill Bradshaw.

Heather [00:31:56] I did. I did and I didn't. I feel bad because at the time, I didn't know much about him personally as far as why I didn't have an idea that Sunstone existed. But he was wonderful, and he was a breath of fresh air. And I think there were times when I would just start to feel really stifled, and everyone around you is very conservative and staunch. And then I would go to a lecture and we would be talking about evolution, and it was kind of like, oh, okay, there are people in the church that not everyone is the same, and that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] And did you ever have a personal friendship with them or anything?

Heather [00:32:41] You know, I went to his lectures and I knew him, and at the time I was in this class, he knew my name. But, I mean, those are huge classes, and I don't expect that he would remember me. But I remember looking up to him, and I remember that being a positive influence at byu, especially towards the end of my time there, when things were a little more difficult with the church.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Yeah, the listeners should know that Bill Bradshaw is an amazing man. I took religion from him. He taught honors religion as well as biology. I mean, he would teach evolution in a class of 900 people and not really back down from it. And his religion classes were very much about a more open minded, thoughtful view of faith, but also very faithful. He's a former mission president. I think he's been in stake presidencies before. Harvard graduate. Just a brilliant guy.

Heather [00:33:38] He is.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] But the important thing to mention, and this is just interesting, is that he's this total sunstone guy. He's been doing sunstone presentations for years. And a lot of times members of the church today look at sunstone as this dangerous thing. But what you're saying is that when you were feeling desperate, a sunstone professor made you feel comforted, like there might be a place for you in the church.

Heather [00:34:03] Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. And I just, you know, there are times when you would sit in Sunday school or in a fast and testimony meeting and somebody would get up there and just say something totally outrageously Mormon about evolution not existing or. I don't know, I mean, everyone sat in a Sunday school and someone would get up and say something and you just feel embarrassed for them. And, you know, it's nice to go to class and hear someone saying all the things you are thinking and knowing this is someone who's been. He's older, he's been in his church his whole life. And even knowing that half the class in front of him probably disagrees with them and thinks that he's going to burn in outer darkness, he doesn't care. And he still has a place in the church, so that was very comforting.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] Yeah. Well, tell us about how you met your one true love.

Meeting Her Husband and Temple Marriage

Heather [00:35:01] I met my husband, actually. He was sitting on the couch of his apartment and I walked through the door one day totally randomly. My roommate's cousin was managing his apartment complex and we had wanted them to do something with us and they couldn't. And I said, but there's this nice apartment of boys across the. Across the hall. And I looked at my roommate like, no way. I'm not knocking on these people's doors that I've never met before. And she knocked before I could walk away. The door opened and my husband and his roommates were sitting there and they ended up not being able to go to do this thing with us. But he got my phone number from the management because I lived with the cousin and called me a few days later. So that's how I met my husband.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] So you fell in love. Fell in love. And what type of family did he come from?

Heather [00:35:53] He has a. He has seven siblings and his father is a stake president.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Okay.

Heather [00:35:59] So that's that kind of they're very, very devout.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] Very devout and conservative.

Heather [00:36:05] Very devout, pretty conservative. They're really good people and they've been really good to us. His parents were adult converts, so there's not, you know, a lot of far back pioneer heritage or anything like that. But they're very, very devout members of the church.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] His dad's still stake president. Is that right?

Heather [00:36:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:27] Okay, so what, so you. He took you to the temple?

Heather [00:36:32] He did. We did get married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] And how was your temple experience?

Heather [00:36:39] Well, the temple especially, because I was. I don't know if you want. There are two parts. There is my temple experience and then there is getting married in the temple when your family can't be there.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Talk about both.

Heather [00:36:54] Yeah, yeah. My temple experience, myself, getting endowed, that was kind of hard. I went through the temple probably about two weeks before I got married. They wait till you're fairly close to getting married to let the women go through.

Heather [00:37:15] And you just. I mean, there's no way to really prepare yourself for that even. I mean, I went to the temple prep courses and they told you to pay your tithing and to make sure you stayed chased and didn't really talk about the temple at all.

Heather [00:37:35] And, you know, no one talks about it. You're not supposed to talk about it. So you go in really blind. And I mean, I don't know. I don't really. I mean, I have no problem talking about the temple, but I don't want to make anyone else feel uncomfortable talking about it themselves. But just, you know, going in and being told to disrobe and then having people touch you or going in and then, you know, sitting here and learning these handshakes, it was nothing that I expected.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] So it felt traumatic for you. Were you just feeling raw? What were you feeling sitting in the chair?

Heather [00:38:17] I remember the initiatories being very. Just borderline traumatic. And I remember receiving my new name, and it happened to be the name of one of my relatives who had done all this genealogy work for my family. Like she was a genealogy buff. And so I was very like, that was kind of the redeeming moment of this experience for me. And I was very excited about that. And I tried to tell the woman who was. Sorry. I tried to tell the woman who was giving me my name and going through that part of the process with me, you know, why this was special and how wonderful this was. And she just kind of shushed me.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Right.

Heather [00:39:00] And

John Dehlin [00:39:03] how'd that make you feel?

Heather [00:39:08] Just sorry. Totally did not expect to be upset about this, though.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Oh, that's okay when you're ready.

Heather [00:39:21] That was kind of. That was. I was just kind of. I mean. I mean, because they tell you this is. You know, you don't tell anyone this name that's special and sacred and all of that, but it was just kind of stole that one redeeming quality of the initiatories from me. And so I just. Instead of. Instead of feeling, you know, having that redeeming moment and that feeling that could have made the initiatories better, I just kind of felt more ashamed. And I'm sure that she did not mean to. She was just doing what she was told to do.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] I can imagine that, not having been raised in the church and feeling like you're sort of a stranger among familiars, you probably feel alone a lot emotionally. And so when you reach out to somebody as a loner, maybe it hurts a little bit more to not feel warmly embraced.

Heather [00:40:27] Yeah, that's probably fair to say. And then as far as just the rest of the ceremony, it was just kind of surreal. It was just like. I didn't know, like, should I just laugh or is this a joke or what's going on? And I look across the room and, you know, everyone else is doing all these things and, you know, am I going to remember everything they're telling me? And then. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't. I don't think that the rest of the actual endowment ceremony was traumatizing as much as it was just kind of bizarre.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Right.

Heather [00:41:02] There's just nothing. I was just totally unprepared for it. And, you know, I know saying that there's going to be people out there that are saying, oh, well, she just wasn't ready. If she just prayed more, read her scriptures more. But I just. I don't think there's anything in the Book of Mormon or the Bible that will prepare you for that. Some other sort of instruction. And then I remember at the end going to the Celestial Room and sitting there and, you know, just being surrounded by, you know, my future husband and all of his family and all these people that I wanted to like me, you know, and I wanted to be part of their family. How do you feel? And isn't this wonderful? And, you know, how was it? And what do you think? And just the enormous social pressure of it.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Yeah.

Heather [00:41:48] Because you are going the first time, two weeks before your wedding. And if I decide to do this, what does that mean for my wedding that I have already sent the invitations out for? I mean, that sounds really petty, but it is a lot if you decide not to go through with that endowment and to walk out when you have the chance, what does that mean? Because it's not like I can stop it and pull my fiance aside and be like, okay, what's going on? I'm pretty much committed at this point.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] Was there a part of you that was wondering whether you wanted to run away? Was it just starting to feel cultish to you or what was it feeling

Heather [00:42:26] like a little bit cultish? A little bit. And I just wonder if somebody had come up to me before I joined the church and. And told me what goes on in the temple. I wonder if I would have believed them even because I had friends that were Mormons and they were nice, normal people. You know, if someone had told me that, you know, my friend from high school's mother wore these underwear, I would have laughed in their face and told them they were crazy. And I knew her mother and there's no way.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] Yeah.

Heather [00:42:54] You know, and so part of me wonders if it would have even done any good if someone had told me.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Right.

Heather [00:43:00] But another part of me thinks, you know, well, the church have a responsibility to prepare its members a little bit better for something that's just so far outside the realm of anything you're ever going to see in sacrament meeting.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Sure.

Heather [00:43:17] And, you know, when you go there, and especially. Well, I think it's probably the same for a young man. You know, you're about to go on your mission and everyone knows you're going to go on your mission. And, you know, they've already planned the farewell party and, you know, and you've gotten your calling and announced it over the phone to all your friends and family in a huge conference call, or you're getting ready for your wedding and, you know, you've sent out your invitations and you've got your dress and here, this is what you have to do.

Heather [00:43:43] And so can you. I mean, anybody. No one's going to stop you from walking out, but there's some huge consequences that go along with that. And you're set there and you've got, you know, five seconds to decide if. If you're going to go through with this or not. I don't know that anybody's able to reasonably make that decision.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] I'd be curious to know if anybody's ever walked out. I've never seen it, but I'm sure it's happened.

Heather [00:44:06] I've never seen it. I've heard stories, but I've never. I can't imagine that it happens with any sort of regularity so over the

John Dehlin [00:44:13] next couple weeks before you got married or a week and a half or whatever, did that temple experience, how did you feel right before, before getting married, Was it making you feel bad? Was it, were you fine with it? Did you get over it?

Heather [00:44:27] I went back several, as much as I could before that because I was, I was going to figure this out.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] Right.

Heather [00:44:33] You know, and I, I was, I was going to, you know, feel good about this and this is what was going to happen. And, and I, you know, I came down to Texas for my endowment and went back up to Utah because we were still in school finishing a semester and the Provo Temple was right there. So.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] So you went along?

Heather [00:44:55] I went back as often as I could to just try to make sense of it and to make it more familiar and figure out what was going on.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] Did that make you feel a little better?

Heather [00:45:06] A little bit. I didn't do initiatories again for a long time, but a little bit. I think it, I don't know that I necessarily felt anything very spiritual in the temple or understood it any better, but I think the familiarity helped.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Right, right. So getting married with coming from a non member family, how was that?

Heather [00:45:41] That was really difficult. That was, my family was not happy about that. My dad was, he's not religious at all. And so I think it was less difficult for him, me joining the Mormon church because I'd been a member of the church, a different church before that, that he didn't agree with. And so now I was a member of a different church and it wasn't such a big deal to him. I think my mother felt very betrayed when I left my traditional Christian upbringing to join the church. And then I have two children and I can't imagine not being able to be there for their wedding. And so that's something that I still live with. It's very difficult for me and my husband too.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] You probably learned in Texas that if you got married in a Mormon temple that not everyone else could come, Right? That's something maybe you learned earlier.

Heather [00:46:31] No, no, no, no, no. I can't remember. I mean, I knew about it before I got engaged. I don't remember exactly when I learned about that, but I know I didn't know about it when I was in Texas or before I joined the church. I mean, I knew that not everyone could enter the temple and I knew that I was going to have to be a member for a year before I could enter the temple. I'm sure I did baptisms before that. Yeah. But I don't know when exactly that clicked for me.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] So sometime at byu, you. You realize that if you were to get married in the temple, your family couldn't come.

Heather [00:47:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Okay.

Heather [00:47:15] But, yeah, they were. I mean, my mom was just devastated. And, you know, the bishop's answer was, oh, you'll have a ring ceremony. And that would be great, but that's not the same as a wedding. And then when you get right down to it, by the time you actually have a ring ceremony, all the rules that the church has for that kind of take away from anything special that you could do in a ring ceremony that would make up for them not being at your wedding, don't make it. Don't have a wedding march. Don't make it too much like a wedding. Don't, you know. And so we decided just not to do that at all. We would exchange rings at our reception, you know, just with family to the side. And we weren't even going to. It was almost like adding insult to injury.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] Yeah. Some people are discouraged from having ring ceremonies, right?

Heather [00:48:04] Yeah, no one ever came out and discouraged it, but nobody seemed really happy with the idea of us doing it either. Like, well, you could do it, but just make sure that, you know, you don't want it to eclipse the temple, and you don't want, you know, to do this or to do that or, you know, to. And so, I mean, it was. It seemed like a lot more hassle than it was worth.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] And how can you. How can you eclipse the temple as a believer? I mean.

Heather [00:48:30] Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, but they were really worried about it.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] So how was it for your family?

Heather [00:48:41] The day of my wedding, they were. They were really. They were really calm, and by that time, they resigned, and they. They did really well. They wanted it to be a special day for me. They understood that it was my wedding, and so they were pretty good. I think they were resigned to the fact at that point. Before that, during all the planning, you know, the months before, there were a lot of fights and tears and, you know, it was. It was pretty difficult.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] Which temple? Oh, it was Houston Temple. I've never seen the Houston Temple, and I grew up there.

Heather [00:49:12] It's a beautiful, beautiful building.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] It is.

Heather [00:49:14] It's worth a trip.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Wow. Okay, so it was in Texas, but

Heather [00:49:21] it just kind of cast a long shadow of your wedding. I spent a lot of, you know, that day worrying about my family instead of, I guess, just focusing on my wedding.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] But your. But your family was a good sport.

Heather [00:49:40] Yeah, they were good. They came and they sat outside the temple while we got married and they took pictures with us outside afterwards.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] And how were your in laws and the in laws family with your family?

Heather [00:49:52] They tried really hard. I think we had a wonderful, beautiful reception, thanks almost entirely to them. We were, we had it there in Houston because we got married there and my husband and I were at. My fiance at the time and I were at byu. So they were doing a lot of the planning and my mother in law took care of all the flowers and my father in law made a list of different hotels to have a reception at and food and everything. So when we came down for my endowment that weekend, we ran around and planned all that. They did so much work and they were really good to help it.

Heather [00:50:29] I don't think, I don't think they had a grasp of how difficult it was for me not having anyone there. But they really did try. They wanted to make it special and they wanted to make accommodations where they could.

Heather [00:50:50] I think that they were adult converts and so they had their wedding and then they were sealed later and they didn't really ever have to. It was the first time that they had to deal with that. Their other children in law came from member families. So I think they were doing the best that they could, but it didn't all go smoothly.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] Oh, go ahead.

Heather [00:51:14] No, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] So overall, as you look back, what are your thoughts and overall impressions of that day?

Heather [00:51:23] What are my thoughts and impressions? I remember, I just mean like your

John Dehlin [00:51:28] overall, just your overall feeling or vibe about the day.

Heather [00:51:34] I remember being really stressful more than anything. I remember worrying about my parents a lot and hoping that they were going to be okay. And even, you know, when we were in the temple worrying about them sitting outside. And I hope they weren't upset and you know, I hope that no one sends the temple president or missionaries over to try to convert them or talk to them. And I know, I think someone did come and give them the ensign magazine about temples or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Is there anything, is there anything LDS people can learn or know to try and make that imperfect situation better? Is there anything that can be done that you've thought about?

Heather [00:52:18] It just varies so much from person to person as to what someone's going to find insulting or what someone is going to find comforting? I think no one ever came and talked to me about approaching my parents about like to give them that magazine or to approach them about the temple. And I think I kind of wish someone had so I could say, you know, these are my parents. This is what I prefer you say to them or not say to them. You know, this is how I know they feel. My parents took it really well when someone approached them and they were like, oh, okay, thank you.

Heather [00:52:43] And we're polite, not interested at all. That were polite, but I mean, that could have gone very badly. You know, you're sitting there and not being at your child's wedding and somebody's going to come up to you and try to tell you how this is a good thing. That's maybe not the most appropriate time to do so, even though it's probably done with the best intentions.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] Right.

Heather [00:53:04] So, yeah, I think, I think that would have been prudent. But it's really hard to say, you know, it's really hard to say. I mean most, I'm sure everyone who couldn't be there would be upset. I mean, I've sat since I've sat outside where a sister in law got married and that's not fun, you know, to be told, especially now and having a daughter and being a mother, I carried this child, I gave birth to her, I fed her for my body and you're going to tell me I'm not worthy to be at her wedding. It's just ridiculous. And so especially now being a parent, I have a lot of regret about that and I don't know that there's much that could be done.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] It's just a bad situation for.

Heather [00:53:47] It's just a bad situation for the outsider. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your ward bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Heather [00:54:45] The sun gone down.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 140

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org. Well, Heather, thank you so much for telling us your story so far. I think this really helps members of the church get an understanding of the conversion process and some of the social and cultural issues and concerns that someone who joins faces and maybe how hard it can be to learn things after the fact, sometimes things that are pretty significant. I don't think there are any easy answers for all this, but I think it's important for us to have sensitivity to it. So thank you so much for what you've shared so far.

Heather [00:00:53] You're welcome.

A Major Shock in Early Marriage

John Dehlin [00:00:56] So here's where your story gets sort of shocking for many people. So why don't you take us from Tell us a little bit about your early marriage and the big shock that came.

Heather [00:01:10] Well, after we got married, we both had about a year and a half left of college, so we returned to Utah to go to byu. And with them probably less than six months for sure of us going back to school. My husband started not wanting to go to the temple, not being really excited about church, just being a little bit depressed in general. And I pressed him about it and we talked about it, and he told me that he didn't believe anymore.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Now, what year was this? Just in my own life, I like to think about things chronologically.

Heather [00:01:50] 2002.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] 2002. Okay. All right. So four years ago? Four or five years ago.

Heather [00:01:56] About five.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] Now, what was that like for you after you'd gone through this big journey into the church? You marry a stake president's son, is that right?

Heather [00:02:04] I know I should have had it made, right. I did everything right.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Holy moly.

Heather [00:02:10] He was a turned missionary. His father was stake president. We got married in the temple. That's the fast track, right? Should be doing good. But yeah, he wasn't happy at all. And it turns out that he had had doubts for a while. I don't want to speak for him or tell his story for him, but he had had some doubts on his mission as well that had never been resolved. And he kind of pushed aside and it was just one of the things that was building up for him.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Again, what kind of doubts?

Heather [00:02:48] He had a lot of problems with the Book of Mormon on his mission, and his mission president's response was to read the Book of Mormon and pray. And that wasn't really helpful for him.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Like doctrinally or historically?

Heather [00:03:02] A little both. A little both. And I think as it progressed, it became More and more historical. This just doesn't add up. This isn't right. And he told me that. And at first I was just crushed. I was, you know, in tears a lot. I was really upset. And, you know, I had just married this person and gone through all of this and had this temple marriage without my family. And now you're telling me you don't believe and what's going on, and I wasn't. I don't. My memories of that period aren't so much anger with him. It was as much as just sorrow and confusion.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Sure.

Heather [00:03:47] And I don't think. I mean, I don't think I was. I mean, I'm sure I had my moments where I was upset with him personally, but that's. You know, looking back, that's not how I would. Would categorize that. That part of my life. It's just. It's just being sad about it.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Yeah.

Heather [00:04:04] More than anything.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] How'd you deal with it?

Heather [00:04:09] I think. I think I dealt with it as well as I could. I was. I was very. I did my best to make him understand that while I was upset, that I still loved him.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Right.

Heather [00:04:22] And that was important to me. I don't. I mean, well, I do love my husband, obviously, but I think he's a wonderful person. But especially having. When I joined the church, having severed. I don't want to say severed ties, but hurt relationships with my family and probably not always dealt with things the best way I could. I think that in some way, I was determined not to let that happen again. And I wasn't going to let a church come between me and my husband as it had between me and my family of origin in some ways.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] Right.

Heather [00:05:01] And I don't know if that's just marriage or maturity or a little bit of both, but I remember consciously making that decision that this was not going to, you know, affect us, that I loved my husband, that I married my husband. And especially now being out of the church as long as I have, you know, you see so many marriages that fall apart when someone decides that they don't believe anymore. And I think the church fosters that a little bit in a way that, you know, you hear how important it is to put the church first and, you know, the things that you should look for in your future mate are, you know, related to the church, and it's such a big presence in everyone's lives and everyone's marriage, even to a certain extent. And maybe I had to leg up being a convert because I wasn't maybe indoctrinated

John Dehlin [00:06:00] how did he take your loving acceptance?

Heather [00:06:06] I'm sure he was relieved to some extent. I think I probably came off looking pretty good because his family didn't take it well at all. And so comparison. Although I'm not, not a perfect person and I'm sure I did not handle it perfectly. And you know, we did have our arguments and our rough times in comparison to how some of our friends, but mostly his family took it, I probably came off looking pretty sad.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Did he tell his dad over the phone or did he go home and have that conversation?

Heather [00:06:39] I think, I mean, I think eventually that conversation was had. Eventually. Around the time of spring conference, his family knew something was up and they were concerned and they decided to come up for conference. And I believe that that's when the discussion, like the big lay it down, I don't believe this is over, you

John Dehlin [00:07:02] know, and he was done. He was convinced he was done.

Heather [00:07:05] Oh, yeah, he was done.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Was there studying that he did after his mission. Oh, and what is Amway? You mentioned Amway in the notes too.

Heather [00:07:17] My husband, My husband looked up to his dad a lot and his dad had decided that he was going to do Quick Star, which is like an Amway spin off pyramid. And his dad was trying to convince us not too long after we were married that this wasn't a great thing and we should get in this with him. And he decided, you know, okay, let's look into this. And he looked into it and he was like, no, this isn't something we want to do. And I think it was kind of just a light bulb moment for him that my dad was wrong about this. And what else could my.

Heather [00:07:55] Maybe my dad isn't, you know, what else could my dad be wrong about? Sure, maybe he's not. Maybe he doesn't know everything. And, you know, and here I am thinking about this business decision and I'm doing all this research and, you know, why shouldn't I look at the church in the same way? And it wasn't so much, Emily. It was just kind of just a moment. Something clicked with him is how he's put it. And I probably told him, he's probably going to be like, well, that's not how it was when he hears this. But I mean, that's the gist of it.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Do you have a sense for the things that he studied? What were the nails in the coffin for him?

Heather [00:08:31] A lot about Joseph Smith, polygamy, the witnesses? Just early church history. Yeah, early church history. I know he spent for a long time a lot of Time on some of the bulletin boards that there are where people have left the church. Recovery from Mormonism. I think everybody who has problems with the church and goes through their angry period probably spent some time in recovery from Mormonism. I must hate mentioning it because it's not the best, I think, example of people who leave the church because I think you see people at their worst there. They're going through their angry phase. I spent some time there too. That's a good angry face place. Not some place I think you want to stay forever.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] So what was the overall reaction from dad and mom?

Heather [00:09:26] Oh, they were just so upset. They were so upset. And especially his mom. She was his baby and she still has a baby. But that was really hard. It just went from just. I mean, they went from sadness to anger to anger to anger to sadness and they. I moved out. He got a phone call from his sister saying that she just didn't think she could have a relationship with him anymore. She didn't know what they would talk about. They wouldn't have anything in common anymore.

Heather [00:09:58] I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to list off like a million horrible things because I don't want to. And they're not evil people. But I mean, we were told that I was pregnant. I'd gotten pregnant about the time this happened with my son and we were told that he was not to have my father in law's name because he would not be serving a mission. And I mean, just things that people say out of shock and anger.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Right.

Heather [00:10:23] And they were just crushed. I mean, they had eight children who were faithful and you know, now almost all of them have gone to byu. You know, everyone was married in the temple and they just felt like they were losing him, almost like he was dying or something.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Did they blame you or did they apologize to you?

Heather [00:10:45] You know, no one has ever come out and blamed me. I get the feeling that even though he left before I did and at this time I was doing my best to be faithful. I mean, I wasn't there every Sunday. It was a lot more difficult for me, especially being at BYU and being in this young married ward and everybody's sitting there in pairs and you're going by yourself. And that was hard, but I think there's probably some resentment towards me.

Heather's Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:16] Well, Heather, thanks so much for sharing a bit about your, your story about your, your conversion to Mormonism and then your exit. As you and I corresponded through email, it was clear to me that you felt really strongly about, you know, feeling that it was important that you tell your story and that you share what you've experienced. So I just thought it'd be interesting to hear a little bit about, you know, why. Why was this story so important for you to tell? You're clearly at peace with having left. You guys have been out for a few years now. Why, why now? Why talk? Why share your story? What, what do you hope, you know, what good can. Can come from this sort of being part of the public record for generations to come?

Heather [00:12:09] Well, to backtrack for a few years. When I first was, when my husband first left the church, I got involved with one of the online boards, the New Order Mormon Board, and I found some support there, and it was a really good place. We actually share a mutual friend from that board. Ann Porter is just a wonderful online friend of mine. She's just. I can't say enough wonderful things about her.

Heather [00:12:35] And I got involved with a few of the other boards and then I kind of dropped off the Internet scene as we became more comfortable with things and then turned in our resignation letters and all of that. And then a few months ago, the Post Mormon board opened up. And I heard about that from a few of my friends who had also left the church or were in the process of leaving the church.

Heather [00:13:05] And I guess I got involved with some people in my area talking and meeting for lunch and those sort of things. And it just kind of. It struck me.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] In Houston.

Heather [00:13:19] Yeah, my area in Houston. And it just kind of struck me, I guess I kind of forgotten about how hard it is for people who are still in marriages with people who are in the church or still dealing with a lot of the issues with their family, because their families are still members of the church or their close friends are members of the church or because they live in Utah or Idaho in an area with a lot of members. And I guess I wanted to be involved in that again and to show support because there had been so many people that had shown me support when I was going through that period of my life.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] So this is sort of a way to show empathy and maybe share a story.

Heather [00:14:03] Yeah. And just, I mean, because it's a really difficult thing just during that transition period, and there's some people who are going to be in that position indefinitely. I mean, I don't even us, for example, you know, my husband has left the church. I have left the church. But my husband's family, he has a very large family, and I don't expect in any way for them to ever leave. And so we're always going to have that part of the church in our lives. And so partly for my own support in that way, but a lot, because I can relate to that. And I can, I don't want to say that I can give wonderful advice because I certainly don't know everything and I don't have all the answers, but to be able to give support to that community, sure.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Well, I do know that stories can be transformative in how they help people heal or make it through hard times. I mean, the biggest issue is just for people to not feel like they're alone, Right?

Heather [00:15:05] Definitely.

Advice for Families Navigating a Loved One's Departure

John Dehlin [00:15:07] So you had mentioned to me that maybe you had a few words of wisdom or advice for family members who are, are trying to cope with or deal with those who have decided to leave the church. So again, this isn't, I don't even believe that on your part, this is an appeal to say all Mormons leave the church. I would imagine that you and your husband both would say, if the church works for you, follow through. But I bet maybe through your bumps and bruises and scars, you have a few pieces of advice or words of wisdom for loved ones who are trying to not make things worse and help maintain a relationship while their loved one is leaving. So what thoughts do you have for our listeners?

Heather [00:16:01] Right. And I like, and like you said, I don't expect everyone to leave the church. I don't, you know, wish for the church to necessarily implode or be burned off the face of the earth or anything like that. But I think that in the end, I think our relationships as human beings are more important than the church or than religion or than any religion.

Heather [00:16:30] And, you know, the church claims to be focused about families and about relationships and about how we are all children of this heavenly Father and how we're all interconnected. And so I think that keeping the focus on that and the relationships is the most important thing. And again, through my experience with the boards, I've heard just so many horrible, sad stories about relationships that have been just destroyed when someone has decided that they don't believe anymore and it's just a tragedy.

Heather [00:17:02] And I think there are things that we can do so that it doesn't have to end that way. I mean, I understand people's feelings are going to be hurt, and I understand that they're transitional periods, but I think there are ways to make them less painful.

Heather [00:17:16] And the two things that usually come up the most often, I think probably in my personal experience, as well as those that I've heard from other people, are, I guess, boundary Issues would be one. And the other would be just the feeling that people who leave the church get that they're somehow suddenly second class human beings and that there's something fundamentally wrong with them and they're fundamentally not as good anymore.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] Okay.

Heather [00:17:46] And I think the church in some way encourages that because they tell their members when they leave. You know, people leave the church because they're offended, because they want to sin or. What's the third one? Oh my goodness, I just drew a blank. Because they're offended because they want to sin or because they're somehow arrogant or prideful, intellectual. And I know, I mean, for me personally.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] Or they never believed to begin with, right?

Heather [00:18:15] They never believed to begin with. Or sometimes it's that, yeah, they never believed to begin with. And I think, you know, I think of myself personally. Yes, there are offensive things in the church, but there are offensive things in lots of places in the world. I mean, people have offended me at my job, but I haven't quit it. You know, my husband has done things to offend me, but I'm still married. And so, you know, I didn't leave the church because anyone hurt my feelings. I think, you know, I'm more mature than that. And I think most people, I don't think that. I mean, I'm not saying that that never happens, but I'm saying that the vast majority of people that I know left the church.

Heather [00:18:55] It was not because they didn't get the calling that they wanted or somebody did something personal to them or their family. So they just decided that they're going to quit this church or they didn't decide that. Hey, I would really like to have a cup of coffee on Sunday morning. So I'm going to up and quit Mormonism.

Heather [00:19:15] And I mean, I think of myself personally. I moved to Utah, I joined this church, I read the Book of Mormon before I got baptized. I had a marriage where my family couldn't be there. You know, I sacrificed a lot of things. And to think that I would just leave because someone wasn't nice to me or because I wanted to have a glass of wine with dinner or, you know, do all these things, it's just, it's kind of silly when you think about it, because the church isn't a religion that you can take lightly. It takes a lot of sacrifice. So anyone who's been in the church for any amount of time to begin with probably isn't somebody who's just going to give up for a silly reason.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Right.

Heather [00:20:01] And so, I don't know, I Think it's something that gets told to try to make people feel better. And in the end, it creates this feeling of us and them and this judgment that does not help relationships. I understand that people don't necessarily want to sit down with someone and say, okay, what do you think is wrong with the church? You know, why did they leave? And maybe they don't want to hear all the gruesome details.

Heather [00:20:32] And I personally. And I wouldn't do that either. You know, I'm not going to. I have lots of Mormon friends and I have more family members, and I'm not going to sit down and dissect church history with them. I'm not going to tell them anything that they don't want to know if they're happy where they are.

Heather [00:20:46] I'm not out to destroy the church. I'm not out to cause problems in anyone's personal life or balance, because it's not an easy thing to leave, and it can create problems in people's marriages and families. I don't. At the same time, I have to walk that balance of, you know, I don't want people to make those assumptions about me.

Heather [00:21:10] So I have to tell them as much as I think is prudent to walk that line, because a lot of members of the church are going to automatically assume that you must have done something wrong. You must never have believed, you must never have had a testimony. You must want to do these things.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] Yeah, there's at least two. First of all, I think it's really great that you try really hard on your end to be as sensitive as possible. There's two immediate things that pop to my mind that actually make this quite complicated. The first is that I once decided that I wanted to read the New Testament with my kids because I thought that maybe somehow it would be less violent than the Old Testament or the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] And so I start reading the New Testament, and right in there, Jesus says, I've come to separate. I don't know the exact words, but the sense that I got was, I've come to separate husband from wife, parent from child, son from parent.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] And I guess those scriptures really can be used to drive a wedge and to tell a Christian, you know what? Your faith does come before your sibling or your parent or your child. And so you really do need to build those, erect those barriers and protect yourself. That's one issue. The other issue is, you know, people, a lot of times we want to think our testimonies are super rock solid. And in some cases, I'm sure They are. But in other cases we really do treat our testimonies like soap bubbles. We try and protect them in the palms of our hands because we're scared from them getting popped.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Because the truth is at the end of the day, many of us like to talk like we walk by knowledge, but really we walk by faith. And so when someone who we love and trust, who maybe even part of our testimony was based on their testimony, when they up and leave the church, it is very threatening. And so it's not like you just have to say to them, okay, you don't want to alienate these people, you don't want to drive them further away and you need to be Christ like and love them. So be really kind and patient and understanding as they've left the church and try and understand all you can and be their best friend.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] The truth is their immediate reaction is protection. Protect myself. The last thing they're thinking about is your pain and your needs. They're thinking I need to protect and guard my testimony because if I even have a candid conversation with them, I could start falling down that slippery slope as well. So that's what you're dealing with.

Heather [00:23:54] It's, I totally understand that. But I think that there are more than one way to protect yourself. And I think that sometimes the easiest way to protect yourself is to be a bully and to say, well, the problem isn't me, the problem isn't my church, the problem is you. And there's something wrong with you. And I have these simple easy answers that the church has hand fed me and that there is something wrong with you.

Heather [00:24:23] And I'm not expecting someone to immediately say, oh, there must be something wrong with the church. But I think there are other ways to think about this. I think you can say that, okay, well maybe this person isn't going to be a member of the church, but maybe they're still a good person, maybe I still love them, maybe they still love me.

Heather [00:24:48] And Heavenly Father gave us agency. And the church teaches that we all have the right to believe or not believe what we so choose. And the church says that it respects that. And I don't think that the church can. Well, it can because it does. But I don't think it's fair for the church to say on one hand, you know, we believe in the right for everyone to believe whatever they want and worship who or how they choose. But at the same time, people who leave the church are just not good people. And they never come out and say that, but they're second class People, there's this and this and this wrong with them and then they are them and we are us.

Heather [00:25:26] And you have to be careful and you can't talk to them and you need to stay away. I mean everyone's asked in their temple recommend, do you associate with people who work against the church? Yeah, it's like we believe that you have the right to do that, but we're not going to be nice or Christ like to you. For a church that is trying so hard to emphasize that Christ like facet of itself, it's very odd.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] I guess it is fair to say that in spite of the scriptures that I quoted earlier about Christ coming to separate family members, you know, you could just as easily cite, I guess where Christ has, he goes to the lepers, he has dinner with the sinners and the publicans and he reaches out to the prostitute. And he definitely seems to make overtures to going the extra mile to understand and love and spend time with those who the rest of us would consider to be the most fallen. So maybe that's some encouraging role modeling by Christ.

Heather [00:26:39] And at the same time, you know, you have the temple which teaches that, you know, we have to be sealed with our family and family is the most important thing and we all have to be sealed together so that we can be with Heavenly Father. So which is it? Did Christ come to separate us? You know, even if that's what it takes to follow him, or did Christ come so that we could all be together again with Heavenly Father? It's difficult to have it both ways.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] Yeah. So what types of boundaries have you and your in laws established to help? Are there any boundaries that come to mind that maybe

Heather [00:27:16] for the most part it's kind of. We've gotten to the point where we've had most of the difficult discussions and everyone's kind of come to realize that we've agreed to disagree and we just try to live our lives around the church and as much as possible just to just not make it an issue because it doesn't have to be the central issue of every interaction that we have with them. Now at the same time you walk into their house and the proclamation of the family is hanging on the wall and there will be half a dozen Book of Mormons on, on the dining room table most days.

Heather [00:27:56] And if you're over there in the evening, they're going to have family prayer before they send the little ones off to bed. And you know, it's never going to be a relationship where, I mean, for the rest of our lives you know, if we choose to have a relationship with them, which we do, the church is going to be there.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Yeah.

Heather [00:28:14] And sometimes that's more difficult than others. You know, there are times when we really like to do something with them, but they've got church engagements four days a week or things like that. For the most part, it's an uneasy truth. There are some members of our family that are open minded enough and are, I guess, secure enough that they feel they can talk to us about some things to a point or have a sense of humor about some things.

Heather [00:28:44] And there are others that we just can't talk to at all and not bring things up at all because it's just too sensitive for them. And a lot of that has to do with just engaging personal relationships and knowing different personalities.

Heather [00:28:56] But for the most part we've just gotten to the point that. I guess that they realize that we're still the same people. And I think that's a problem that a lot of people have when their family members leave the church. Like I can remember when we first left, one of my husband's sisters told him that she didn't think she would ever be able to talk to him again.

Heather [00:29:21] Not because she was upset with him or didn't love him, but because she thought they would have nothing in common. She honestly did not know what they

John Dehlin [00:29:28] would talk about like parents because he

Heather [00:29:30] was not going to be a member of church. She's younger, she wasn't married at the time. But. And there are, I mean, and I'm not saying, you know, I don't want to stereotype more than I have to, but for the sake of discussion, you know, there are a lot of people in the church who the church is there whole life, you know, their Sundays and their, you know, all their social activities revolve around the church.

Heather [00:29:54] And so, I mean, I'm sure that she's not the only person who's ever had that moment of oh no, you know, what am I going to, you know, all my interactions with this person, so many of them have revolved around the church that what are we going to have in common and what kind of person is this person going to turn into? And I'm not even going to like them anymore because everything is seen through that lens of the church.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Yeah.

Heather [00:30:21] And I think that comes back to something we talked about earlier is just that feeling that some people have that if I wasn't a member of the church, I would be this horrible person shooting up heroin in a gutter. And it's not like That I think if you can really open your eyes and see that there are just all these wonderful people outside the church and if someone leaves, it doesn't mean that they can't be a good person anymore or a person that you would want to interact with anymore.

Life After Mormonism and Finding New Meaning

John Dehlin [00:30:52] So have you guys missed the church at all? Like, are there ever days where you just say, man, things are hollow now, things are empty, things aren't like they were. I wish I could get some of the good back, you know, Even though I'm glad that some of the bad we've been able to distance ourselves from.

Heather [00:31:12] There have been times when I've missed the social group of the church. There are not many people, we're both in our late 20s. There are not many people our age who are both college educated. My husband just finished grad school, I have a full time job, who have small children.

Heather [00:31:31] We're just kind of in a unique station in life. Most of the people my age that I work with are just getting married. Most of the people who have children children's age are a good five to 10 years older than us.

Heather [00:31:43] And so being outside the church, and especially when we're not in Utah anymore, so there aren't as many young families who are, I guess, socially compatible with us. And so that's been difficult. And I think it was a little bit harder for my husband, having grown up in the church, really having. Because he grew up having that social network a lot, you know, having home teachers, having, you know, his young men's group, having his elders quorum. And you really do. You haven't that built in social network.

Heather [00:32:14] And when you've left the church, you know, it's. You go through an interesting point of okay, where do I look to find my friends? You know, where do I look to find kids for my kids to play with or, you know, people for us to go out with as a couple? Yeah, and that was, that was hard.

Heather [00:32:32] Spiritually, not really. We attended a Unitarian church a few times and I enjoyed it, but I just really haven't felt the need to fill that gap in any way. I didn't really have anything missing. I enjoy reading, I enjoy reading philosophy, I enjoy learning, but I've always been pretty good to do that on my own. The only major gap I guess that I felt was just the social one. And as we've gotten older, that's gotten easier.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] I have a lot of friends who, when they leave the church, they actually do one of the first things they do. And they even say this. When I wrote my Resignation letter. The first thing I did was go buy a cup of coffee. And now I drink coffee every day. And they have wine with dinner. You know, they say that's not why they left, but it's so. It's interesting, you know, I sort of feel like no matter what I ever did regarding the church, I don't know, that's just so much part of me that I could never abandon that. You know, I think I'd still pay tithing if I stopped going to church just because all that stuff just is so much part of my fabric. But that seems to be the minority of instances. Most instances, people really do run with abandon towards those things that had been most prohibited previously.

Heather [00:34:04] I don't think there's anything wrong with experience, and I guess a member of the church is probably going to disagree with me, but I don't think there's anything wrong with going out and having a glass of wine with dinner, because you've never had a glass of wine and you want to find out if you like it or not.

Heather [00:34:22] And I see that as completely different than someone going out, becoming a lush, and drinking a bottle of wine with dinner every night. And it's the same thing with having a cup of coffee. I think there's nothing wrong with having those experiences in moderation to find out, okay, this is what I do and don't like. And I've decided this for myself, not because someone else has told me that. And there are a lot of people who go out and try alcohol and decide they don't like it, or they try coffee and they're like, why would anyone ever want to drink this?

Heather [00:34:55] And I don't know. I think that there's nothing. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to have new experiences. I don't think that anyone. I mean, it's not easy to leave the church. It's not easy to send in your resignation letters and to go through all this anxiety with your family. And then if you're living in the corridor, you have to deal with, you know, your entire social situation around you collapsing and dealing with telling all these people that have been your social network and trying to decide who's going to cut you off and who's going to decide that they really do like you for you. And to me, it's just. I can't imagine someone doing that because they want a cup of coffee.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Sure, sure.

Heather [00:35:38] And, yeah, I mean, to me, I just don't. Personally, I just don't see anything wrong with going out and experimenting you know, within reason and responsibly, because you can.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Sure. I'll ask you one, two last questions, if that's okay. The first is I do have a lot of friends who, when they. When they decided to leave the church and they decided that maybe they weren't believers anymore, it wasn't very long before they started questioning their marriage. Because when you're married in the temple, you're married under a completely different paradigm.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] You choose this person. If you're a female, you choose this person because he's a righteous priesthood holder. You want to be married for time and all eternity goes God and Jesus and Joseph Smith are all intricately woven into all these decisions. A mother sort of signs up to the. Oftentimes the proclamation of the family role. So you're going to be a mommy and have lots of kids, and the husband's going to do his thing.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] But there are many for whom sort of all bets are off and everything sort of erodes, and there comes this moment of truth where they have to say, do I really want to stay married? And if so, it may be that there's some radical renegotiation that happens that needs to take place.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Is this something that's crossed your husband's mind that you're comfortable sharing or, you know, is this a relevant issue in the experience that you've had counseling others? Or is it just a few fluky friends that I have that have had to deal with this sort of, do we even want to stay married?

Heather [00:37:19] I don't know that many people who. Who both have left the church. Most of my experience, and I don't know if there aren't that many couples that leave together or if it's just that the people that do leave together don't feel the need to seek out community as much as those who do.

Heather [00:37:37] My experience has been more that one person leaves and the other person doesn't, and all the reevaluation comes from that end. Do I want to stay in this marriage? Because this person has totally, you know, reset all the boundaries and agreements that we've made. And that's a completely different situation.

Heather [00:37:55] I think. I never. I never. I can honestly say that I never for a second thought that I didn't want to be married to my husband because we got married when we were Mormons and we weren't Mormons anymore.

Heather [00:38:09] I can say that there have been times when I don't want to say regret or resent, but I've reflected really heavily on the fact that, you know, we did have children Very soon after our marriage and that things have been more difficult because of that and that we did get married very quickly.

Heather [00:38:31] I think we were engaged for about six or eight months before we got married. And there have been times when I thought, you know, I wonder how things would be different or how things would be easier if we hadn't been members of the church and we had gone down this path and said that. For example, my husband just got through three years of grad school, and actually the only two other people that I know of in his graduating class who had small children were LDs.

Heather [00:38:57] And so it is. I mean, that was really difficult for us. Here we are in a grad school program where they expected him to go to school full time, and we had two small children. We had to juggle that with me supporting our family and, you know, two kids under three or four.

Heather [00:39:12] And so that was really difficult. But I don't know. I married my husband because I loved him, you know, not because of. I mean, did I respect the fact that, you know, he was a righteous priest, chose Holder, and he was a returned missionary. And, I mean, those were all wonderful things. You know, those were extra gold stars or whatever. But I married him because I love him. And again, I think this goes back to. I don't think that my husband fundamentally changed because he didn't join the church or he's not a member of the church anymore.

Heather [00:39:47] He's still pretty much the same person he was then. He might have a cup of coffee every now and then. He doesn't tithe. I mean, there's just. We don't spend three hours in church on Sundays. But I mean, we still have the same basic, you know, an important fundamental moral, ethical, you know, issues. And we still love each other. And I don't think that leaving the church changes most people that much.

Heather [00:40:14] I really don't. And I think that. I think if it comes to that point where because you're not a member of the church anymore, you don't want to be married. Did you really marry someone or did you marry the church? Did you marry the church's expectations? And I think there are people that do that.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Yeah, for sure.

Heather [00:40:35] But I haven't seen that many people who marry the church leave the church. I think those people, I don't know if they're committed in a different way than I was or if they're just not willing to think about the things that I thought about or what the case is that way, but I don't know. I married my husband, and I love Him. And I don't. I mean, I don't see that he's fundamentally a different person than he was those years ago.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Well, I guess that's. That's fortunate. So.

Heather [00:41:07] Yes, it is. I'm very grateful for that.

Reflections on the Journey Out and What Comes Next

John Dehlin [00:41:10] So, last question. You know, I've seen this pattern in a lot of people who have left where they usually the step out of Mormonism is either Episcopalian or Unitarian, but very often those Peter out, and then maybe there's a step towards Buddhism, but oftentimes it's a very quick, I'll say descent, just for fun, into just pure atheism and agnosticism.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] If you deconstruct the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, you can very easily use those same deconstruction tools to deconstruct historical Jesus in a historical Bible. And so, you know, by the end, a lot of people are just left disaffected from faith and from religion in general. So I'll just. I'll just ask you to close this interview telling us about what, you know, where do you lie now in terms of faith or religion or spirituality? And, you know, how do you see your family evolving in a different paradigm? And even do you have thoughts about the afterlife or heaven? And how do you jibe that with the big changes you've been through over the past five years?

Heather [00:42:26] Okay. Well, Right now, I think that I'm at a stage where it's kind of unimportant to me.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] Unimportant?

Heather [00:42:41] Yeah, it's just. It's not something that affects my daily life very often. I mean, we'll go to an LDS service when there's a baptism or a blessing or something like that. When I'm in town, you know, around my family who are Christians, I'll attend their Christian church for Sunday, you know, to be with them or for family events. But for the most part right now, I think I kind of choose not to think about it too much.

Heather [00:43:09] I think that, I mean, not to say that I'm ancient or I've seen it all, but I think in my relatively short life that I've seen religion do a lot of really bad things, and those bad things have outweighed a lot of the good things that I've seen. And I think that in my personal life right now, the idea of a God who allows some of the things that happen in his name to happen is kind of disturbing.

Heather [00:43:36] And so to me, at this point in my life, not believing in a God, or at least not believing in a God that is involved in people's personal day to day life is much more comforting than a God who chooses to find someone's keys for them, but allows people to die in Iraq every day, or children to starve on the streets or things like that.

Heather [00:44:04] Especially as a mother having children, it's just very difficult for me to imagine a heavenly father who loves us, who would allow that to happen. I mean, my child falls and scrapes her knee and I'm running to help her and to comfort her.

Heather [00:44:21] And I just really can't fathom a heavenly father or any sort of God by whatever name you choose to call him or her, to allow things like that to happen. And so at this point in my life it's easier to just. I just kind of push it to the back burner. And I'm not concerned with it. And I think that, I think that most of the good things that are taught by the LDS Church or by other churches as well can be found in other outlets. I can teach my children to be good people without teaching them that they need to believe in Jesus. And I have confidence in that.

Heather [00:45:04] My kids are good people. They're small people, young people, but they're good kids. I don't know, maybe. I'm sure as they get older it'll become more complicated. But at this point in my life, I just associate religion in general with a lot of things that cause division.

Heather [00:45:25] And a lot of the more, I guess, difficult or bad things and the good things that come from religion, I can see myself pulling from other areas of society. I can have my son in Boy Scouts without him being lds. I can put my daughter in a mirage of sports or dance lessons and teach her about teamwork and community. You know, we could go and do community service without any church. And so it just, it doesn't seem necessary to me at this juncture in my life.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Sure. What about just spirituality? Does the word spirituality even have a place in your framework now? Or does that is for you spirituality just very closely tied with religion? And so it's better just a secular approach?

Heather [00:46:16] I think for me, spirituality is a lot more broad than religion. I think I can. I don't pray. I don't teach my children to pray. I mean, they like one of our in laws, for example. You know, there's a lot of prayer going on and I teach my children to be still and quiet out of respect. But you know, you don't have to close your eyes or fold your arms if you don't want to. But I mean, I can read philosophy or poetry or any manner of things that I can study. And for me, that can be spiritual. I can go and do something kind for my neighbors and that for me can be spiritual, or listen to music that I found uplifting. For me, that can be a beautiful spiritual thing. And it's not something that I define so narrowly, something that I have to find in organized religion.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Sure. So there's still a sense or a longing or an enjoyment of what the rest of us would call spiritual, but you just don't couch it in religious terms.

Heather [00:47:32] I don't know if I feel a longing. I don't know that it's even something that I search out. But I think that the church defines this spiritual thing as these good feelings. You pray over the Book of Mormon and you have a good feeling about that. And that's the spirit and that's spiritual. That's Heavenly Father telling you the church is true. Or someone gets up in fast and testimony meeting and starts crying, and that means that it's spiritual and the church is true. And for me, I don't necessarily go seeking for that emotional high, but there are things that I come across in my life from other directions that can bring me that same sense of peace, contentment, and fulfillment.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Yeah.

Heather [00:48:20] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Sure, sure. Well, Heather, I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to come on and share with us both your conversion and your deconversion stories, as well as your advice for dealing with loved ones who have lost their faith. I really do believe and hope that if you're LDS and you care about people's experience joining the church, and you want to make sure that they don't feel disenchanted or betrayed once they learn things after joining. I think your story will be helpful for those types of people. I know that temple matrons and temple workers will benefit from hearing a little bit about your temple story, because that was very moving.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [00:49:10] But also for those struggling with those who are leaving, I do know for a fact that, you know, a parent who's on their deathbed who's chosen to allow religion to come between them and their children is going to look back and say, was it really right for me to allow religion to be that which separated us? So your call for compassion and love and understanding and boundaries, I think is going to mean a lot to all sorts of believers and probably to those who lose their faith as well. So I think you're doing a great service, and I just appreciate you making the time.

Heather [00:49:49] Thank you. I appreciate you making the time as well, John.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, Head Family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an E S K Y E pixton.com thank you.

Heather [00:50:48] The sun gone down.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.