Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 555

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you.

Guest [00:00:19] You can be amazing, turn a phrase into a weapon or a drug. You can be the outcast to be the backlash of somebody's lack of. You can start speaking up.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's very exciting to have you with us today, both in audio and for those of you joining us on YouTube in video. It is July 29, 2015. We're broadcasting or recording today from Salt Lake City, Utah, in Sugarhouse. And we're just very, very excited to have with us today a really important emerging voice in progressive Mormonism. Her name is Juliana Villegas Haas.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] She is super cool and interesting for a number of reasons. She's from Belgium. It's sort of important to note in a time when race is really an important issue to be discussed nationally and internationally. It's worth noting that Juliana is a person of color.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] We'll be talking about that. She's also European. She was raised in Belgium. She speaks French as her native language, but she also speaks English fluently and a few other languages in addition to some degree or another. She is most known in 2015 for a really important op ed that she wrote in the Salt Lake Tribune. The op ed is called what do Progressive Mormons?

John Dehlin [00:01:52] A Dialogue About Change. And it's really struck a nerve, wrote on Facebook and on Twitter and on the Internet. And so we're going to be talking about that in depth today about her views. But most importantly, we're going to talk about her story, which includes again, being raised in Europe in Belgium.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] It includes being raised as a person of color within the LDS Church in Europe. It'll talk about her experience as a missionary on Temple Square here in Salt Lake City, Utah. She is married to a Caucasian LDS Church member.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] So she's in an interracial marriage. We'll be talking about that. And then also we're going to talk about sort of her faith journey that aligns with her family. And then we're going to talk about this article and her views on the church in the 21st century and her thoughts on what might need to happen to help make Mormonism healthier and better. And so I just can't say I'm excited enough to have you today. Juliana Viegas Haas to Mormon Stories. Welcome.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:04] Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. I am excited to do this.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] And a little nervous.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:15] And a little nervous.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Well, you've got a great story.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:18] I'll relax as it goes.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get you talking. You'll be fine. Thanks for joining us. And let's just begin. Tell us a bit about your parents and how your family sort of ended up in Belgium.

Julienna's Family Roots in Congo and Belgium

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:35] Okay. So my mother is half Portuguese. Portuguese father and Congolese mother. So her dad ended up in the Congo as an entrepreneur, as a businessman. So he went over there and bought some land. And around what year that is in the 1930s, actually, before that, 1920s, because my mom was born in 1937. So I would say really early 20th century.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:07] And so I think he married my. Well, he didn't marry my grandmother, actually, but. But he wanted to be with her. I think he liked her, but mostly so he could get access to the land. So that's a little bit how they worked back then. You know, the Europeans go and they try to get in. Into the communities. And so he met my grandmother and had good favor with her father, who was the colonel in the Belgian army, which at the time. The Congo is a Belgian colony.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:45] So my mother is born in the Congo. She had a very privileged life living there. They had servants. She was homeschooled. They didn't interact a lot with the people on the outside, except for hires. They would work on the land and work in the house. They had cooks and just servants. All sorts of people helping out in the house. So that's my mother. She at around.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] So her mother didn't marry her father?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:05:21] Yes. And the reason is, did he have other

John Dehlin [00:05:26] spouses?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:05:27] You know, we don't know for sure, but we think so. My mother doesn't really know if it happened. It was secretive and she doesn't know about it, but she thinks it may have happened. But the reason why they're not married is because he wants to take hold, I mean, to keep the assets, and he wants to choose which children will have access to it. My father bears her father's name, so my last name, my maiden last name is Lopez Ferreira Villegas, which is the Portuguese name of my mother, which is the name of her father. Interesting. So, yes. And she was apparently favored of her father out of the five children they had, my grandparents. My mom says that she was the favorite. She always says that her father just loved her, you know, to pieces. And I don't know it's a good thing to have favorites among your children, but that's how she feels.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Okay, so what language did she grow up speaking?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:06:26] She grew up speaking French and also Lingala, which is the. The native language of her mother.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] Why French?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:06:35] Why French? Because it's a Belgian colony and people speak French. I mean. Yeah, I don't know. And she knew Portuguese, too, with her father as a little girl. She spoke Portuguese with her father. She said that, too. But French was like the schooling language over there.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Got it?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:06:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Okay, so your mother spoke French, was one of five children to a Portuguese father. Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:01] And a Congolese mother.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] And a Congolese mother. Okay. And so. And kind of a growing up with privilege.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:09] Yes. Like a little princess.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:12] Different for me.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] And how. How. How did she end up in Belgium?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:18] Okay, so how does she end up in Belgium? So. So the Congo is a Belgian and

John Dehlin [00:07:22] a member of the church.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:23] And a member of the church. So the belt. The Congo is a Belgian colony. So there is a lot of Belgians in and around 20 years old. She goes and works for the radio, like a local radio, and meets her first husband, who is a Belgian, and they fall in love and she, you know, wants. They want to get married. He asks my grandfather, and it is granted. So they get married. I think they flew to Belgium and got married in Belgium and go on and have three kids, three boys.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:08:00] And after, I don't know exactly how many years, but after maybe 10 years, they get divorced in Belgium, and then. No, it had to be less than 10 years. Maybe. I don't know the exact dates, but they end up getting divorced. So my mom is a single mom with three boys, and then 10 years later, she meets my father, who is a Congolese. So she meets the white guy in Africa and the black guy in Belgium. It's all reversed. Who's from Congo, who's from the Congo. And there is a lot of exchange because of the colony. You know, there is a lot of back and forth between Congolese going to Belgium and Belgians going to the Congo. So it's. I would say that it's one of the minorities, you know, in Belgium would be the Congolese.

Guest [00:08:57] So.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Okay, so let me see. Let me see if I get this right. Yes. So your mother was biracial.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Right. Your mother's first husband was from Belgium.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:12] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] So he was Caucasian.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] And then your mother's second husband was from the Congo.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:19] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] And so then she had my sister and I.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:28] Okay, yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Great.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:30] All right. With the second marriage. So first marriage, three boys, and then 10 years later, married to my father and have my sister and I. That marriage didn't last very long either because there were a lot of conflicts with my older brothers and the new father.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:48] And my mom was also 10 years older than my father, and the family didn't quite accept the union, and so lots of conflicts. I have very little memories. My parents divorced when I was 2 years old, and I think there was cheating involved on the side of my dad. And my mom pretty much kicked him out and wanted nothing to do with him at all, even forbade him to see us.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:16] And she kind of put the whole family in this situation where do not approach him. Do not let him approach us. And I know he tried for some time to be in contact with us, but she did everything she could so it wouldn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] So your biological father was an active part of your life?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:39] Up until about six weeks ago.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Okay, let's. Let's come back.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:46] Yes. That's a whole other story that maybe may not belong here, but okay, yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Did you know your grandparents?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:54] I did not know any of my grandparents either. You're okay on my mom's side or okay, obviously my dad's side. I know no one on that side of the family.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] And how did your mother earn a living when she was living in Belgium as a single mom?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:07] When my mother first came to Belgium, she received her allowance, right, from her wealthy father. So she basically had enough to live off from without having to work.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] That's nice.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:25] That's very nice. And so she kept living, I guess, the grand life when she went to Belgium, but things took a different turn after. Well, so we have to go back a little bit. In 1973, my grandfather passes away, and he had left a few instructions on how, you know, to give the money out or whatnot. And she received her portion of the money, and so she still had enough to live on. So, like when my brothers are young and, you know, with the first marriage, financially everything is fine. But then when she marries my father, whom she helps with his studies, she basically pays for his studies, and she tries to get involved in a business, like a restaurant type thing and kind of a club or something, and she ends up losing all her money.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:12:24] She's embezzled. She partners with some people who took advantage of her because she wasn't really financially savvy, like she didn't really know what she was doing. So she loses everything and is poor. So I grew up, you know, with really not much at all. And so she. She doesn't really have an education, you know, she doesn't have any degree. In anything. So she was a hairdresser for a while. She was a nurse assistant for a while. Like, she tried to do whatever she can, but from from that moment on, even with my brother, she's pretty much a single mother the whole time. So I grew up with her as a single mother, always working because she always tried to do something and provide for the family.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:10] But it was difficult. It wasn't easy. And for her, it was also a shock because, you know, she was. She grew up having everything pretty much given to her. And here she is in the situation where, you know, she's. She has to provide. And so. And she's very courageous. I mean, she's a very brave woman, and she worked really, really hard her whole life so that we. We could be, you know, we could have what we needed.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] So I would think that'd be incredibly hard. To be raised with so much privilege, almost as, like a trust fund kind of child. And then all of a sudden, to be poor, not in your home country, and to be raising five children, two divorces, with no other support, that would be devastatingly hard.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:58] It was very hard. I mean, luckily, the social system in Belgium is so that she always got a little help from the government, or so we, you know, we always had something, but it was definitely a shock. And what's interesting with my mom is that, you know, from that point on, and I'm very little, so that's the only thing I've known. My brothers have known her, you know, having everything and, you know, they had multiple cars and all sorts of things, but we never knew that. Like, my sister and I, we've always known the struggle, but.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:14:33] And it's at that point that after the second divorce, after she loses everything, she is completely depressed. I mean, of course, you know, she doesn't know what she's going to do. She's like, here I am, my business gone. I have no money. I'm a single mother again. I think the same kind of thing happened with the first husband where he traveled a lot for work, and stuff happened in the Congo, and she just left. I mean, they got divorced. But so at that point, she's super depressed. I mean, to the point where I remember I'm about 3 years old and we live in this apartment, and she really was about to, like, turn on the gas and let us all, like, sleep forever.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:15:19] That's how she tells the story. And so she's in this deep, deep depression. And a couple of days, you know, into that, where she's really thinking about it, the Missionaries knock at her door. So here.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] What's the year?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:15:36] This is 19 ish. 1980. Ish. No, not ish. 1980, because she was baptized in 1981. Okay, so. So the missionaries knock at her door, and she's always been a believer. I mean, she wasn't raised a certain religion. I think Catholicism was there. But they were not churchgoers or anything like that. They prayed at home, but not really churchgoers.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:03] But she always had faith. I remember she always read her Bible and, you know, she was kind of a seeker. Like, she went to the Jehovah Witnesses for a while and then didn't feel comfortable. So the missionaries knock at her door, and they're like, you know, hello, we're the missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter Day Saints. Do you know who we are? She's like, no, I never heard of you.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:23] And we have a very important message. You know, can we come in? And she's like, sure, why not? And so they have that little discussion with her, you know, and leave a Book of Mormon with her at the house and say, just, you know, read it, and then, you know, we'll come back in a couple of days. Tell us what you thought.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:41] And up until then, my mom is. You know, she drinks, she smokes. That's just part of her life. And she tells about this story that is, like, for her, the foundation of her testimony, where she sits on the couch, you know, one afternoon, my sister and I are in school, at school, and she just takes her glass of beer and her cigarettes, and she takes the Book of Mormon and wants to read it. And then she starts telling herself, you know, I'm really annoyed, like, why am I drinking? Why am I smoking? I'm wasting my time. I'm just, you know, I don't have any money.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:19] And here I am, you know, buying this beer and these cigarettes that cost a lot of money, and she just decides on the spot to quit smoking and drinking. And she just. She goes and dumps all the alcohol in the sink and throws the cigarettes away.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:37] And so the next time the missionaries come, she's. She's like, you know, I did something really great. I stopped drinking, and I stopped smoking this week. And the missionaries are like, do you know Mormons don't smoke and drink? She's like, I never heard of Mormon. And, no, I don't know that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:57] And so to them, it was like, whoa, you know, there is power in that book, you know, and how come this happened? And they both parties, you know, the missionaries and my mom concluded that there has to be some kind of divine intervention here because, you know, call it coincidence if you want, but, you know, I quit smoking and drinking. You gave me the Book of Mormon. You guys don't smoke and drink, you know. You know, like, they really saw it as a divine intervention. And that's where her testimony starts.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:18:30] And ever since, she's been embracing the gospel. Also, when they taught her about the fact that the church had a prophet and 12 apostles, it just resonated with her because in all of the other churches, they had never talked about these things. And the whole restoration concept really resonated with her. And she was like, yeah, it makes sense. You know, if they were prophets in the old days, they should be a prophet today and apostle. It makes sense. And she really embraced the message, and it really resonated with her.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:19:04] So. And at that point, I'm four years old, so she joins the church, she's baptized. And in fact, later when we talk about the op ed, the missionaries who baptized her found me through that and got in contact with me recently, but we can do that later. Cool.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] All right.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:19:27] So that's how it starts.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] So you're four, she joins the church. And tell us about your upbringing in the church in Belgium.

Growing Up Mormon in Belgium

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:19:36] In Belgium. So when. I've loved going to church ever. I mean, since, you know, this started. I mean, it was kind of a trek. We would wake up, like, super early in the morning and travel for an hour in, like, buses and trams to get to the church building, but my mom would just drag us, you know, with her and do it. And I loved primary. I loved young women's. I mean, I had great experiences. I think I was. I've always been drawn to spirituality, so it came easily for me to just accept everything, and it was pleasant. I feel like the church kind of filled the void, you know, without having a father at home.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:20:17] Like, I had a lot of good, I guess, father figure in the church or seeing how a home should be like, or, you know, the family that the church encourages to have with. You know, I didn't have that at home, but I could see it at church. And I wanted that for myself, too, for later. And so I had a very positive experience all. All along. Always involved, always serving, always in some kind of leadership or something, because the church isn't that big, so.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] But how racially diverse was your ward in Belgium? Were you in Brussels?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:20:52] I was in Brussels, yes. I was in Brussels in the main stake building. And our church has always been very diverse. I mean, just because I think, like immigrants and people from, like, other nationalities in Belgium are usually more drawn to the gospel, to accept the gospel than the natives, I would say so, yes. It was always very diverse in our ward.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] So percentage of people of color in your ward growing up? Approximately, like 10%?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:27] Maybe. 10%, yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] All right. So one out of 10?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:31] Yeah, yeah. Between 5 and 10%. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] And so it's a French speaking ward?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:37] It was a French speaking ward, yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Okay. So you. So you served in the Callings Beehive, you know.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Laurel. Miami.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:49] Yes. Yeah. All that.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] President.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:53] It wasn't too hard. I mean, there wasn't a lot of people to go.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] Did it have a vibrant youth program or.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:59] They did.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Few kids.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:00] It was few kids, but we were, you know, for the most part, we were very involved. I mean, a lot of people left, you know, like. But there was a core that was always there and that, you know, thrive and did well. And, you know, I'm still in touch with like two or three of my friends that I grew up with in the church. It wasn't big class. I mean, if we were five in a class, that would be great, you

John Dehlin [00:22:23] know, and that would not be just your age, but like, all the youth.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:28] No, that would be my age. Like, I think each class would have about four to five people in it.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] And would you have had any of the stereotypical kind of US youth experiences, like dances, war dances, steak dances, regional dances?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:43] Yes, we did. You did, yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] What kind of music would you dance to?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:48] Well, I think it was a little bit more liberal over there just because we don't speak English and we don't. We don't always know what the song says. So if you like the beat and it's not, you know, that clean. Well, we don't know, as long as it's not, you know, overtly like F word everywhere or, you know, like. But if the. If the theme isn't especially good, but the rhythm is good, like we would just listen to it and dance on it.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] So was it mostly European music?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:16] No, most English. I mean, a little bit of both. Yes. Yes. I mean, top 40s, you know, that makes it throughout the world. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] So. And any temple trips or youth conferences. Absolutely.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:29] And I participated in all of them and it was great. Like, we would go to the Frankfurt temple because that was the closest. So when we went to the temple, it was like a three day or four day affair. So we all go and we stay there and we sleep in the host. The guest house that they have attached to the temple. And you can go from the guest house to the temple without having to go outside. And so it's really. And so you in white all the time, and it's really like you're in heaven, right? You're, like, floating in your white dresses. And it was great. Like, I loved it. And it was always, like, super spiritual for me. Like testimony builder, you know, like, everyone's so nice, and it's just, you know, you cut off yourself from the world and just, you know, it was great. Like, I had. I really enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] What about seminary?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:20] We did seminary, so we would just study during the week and then go on Friday and discuss, you know, what we had studied during the week. So that's how it happened. And I was very good about doing it. I mean, I was like a first row kind of the. Yeah, I was really into it very much.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] And you did all four years of seminary?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:42] I did all four years, and then I went to institute, but I don't think I did all four years of institute. I did a couple years.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] What about dating in high school?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:51] Dating in high school. So I don't think I ever dated. No, that's not true. I dated one person in the church, but all of the other people I dated were outside of the church.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] You dated, not members?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] That's a little sketch.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:07] Yeah. I don't know. That's. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] That's probably. No, but is that just the difference between us and Europe?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:11] Yeah. Yeah. And we don't really date. Like, you just have a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Like, we don't do dates.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Oh, really? It's just like a title.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:21] Yeah, yeah. You just go out with someone and you stick with that one person. That's kind of how we do it. The dating thing is very. It's a very American concept.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Oh, okay. What about law of chastity? How was that taught? How did you experience law of chastity? Kind of stuff in high school.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:41] Okay. So the same teachings, I think, as anywhere else, but the one I remember that I was taught was the flower. You know, you're this beautiful rose, and you want to be this beautiful, fresh rose. When you get married, you don't want to be a. How do you say it?

John Dehlin [00:26:03] Mangle. Yeah, Mangy.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:26:06] You know, when wilted. There you go. That's the word. You don't. You don't want to be a wilted rose. And I actually really hooked on to that idea. Like, I'm like, yes, that's. That's what I want. To be. I want to be a beautiful. And I remember I was kind of even bragging about that with my non members friends because I was one of those super, like motivated, like missionary, like kind of person. Like as a, as a youth, as a teenager, I would go out with missionaries and teach with them, you know, because I was like, I don't know, I was just so excited.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:26:43] And for me it was like, the gospel is true and I need to share it. And you know, I would stand on the street with them and you know, talk about it. I would go and sing at Christmas time, you know, in the middle of the square in Brussels, they have like this beautiful square and I would just be there. And even with my friends, any opportunity I had to like give them a Book of Mormon or bring them to church. I mean, all of my friends from high school who were close to me have seen step foot in the church at some point or another.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:27:13] I mean, they didn't join a church. Some of them, A couple of them did, but. And left. But yes, I was really very missionary minded.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] And would you have experienced the word of wisdom the same way that maybe some of the states would have? Was it different in any way?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:27:36] I didn't drink or smoke or anything like that, but I did taste, you know, like my family was a member. Like even I remember being very little and like we had parties and at my uncle and aunt's house and I would just go and like taste people's glasses because they were just there and you know, like they would just be talking and I'm like, oh, I wonder what that is. So. But I never got into drinking or anything like that. So.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:28:02] But I cannot say I never tasted it. I mean, you eat a chocolate and you will have alcohol in it, you know, over there. Like at some point or another you will have tasted alcohol in your. Even in your dessert or whatever, you know, so. But to come back to the law of chastity, like, I dated a lot of people, I think, but I knew my limits. So yeah, like, I didn't break the law of chastity or anything like that. And I was kind of bragging to my friends at school that I will be, you know, a virgin until I'm married. And they were like, what you crazy?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:28:38] Like for Europeans, that's not even a realistic concept. They just see that as kind of weird. But for me it was like my badge of honor, which now I'm like, yeah, but cool.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Okay. Any other important differences between growing up as a youth in Belgium or in Europe in the 19. Was it 90s?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:05] 1990s, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Versus what you understand the experience to be here, or would you say it was very kind of Americanized?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:12] No, no, no, it's not. Not at all American. I mean, the church? A little bit, yes. Are you talking about the church?

John Dehlin [00:29:17] Yeah, church. Your experiences in the church. Yes.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:19] Okay. Yes, it's very much Americanized, but you still have the culture that surround you. So I think exposure to. I went to Catholic schools all growing up, so I went to Catholic churches and, you know, talk to nuns and people who are Catholic. I mean, we had. There was a big majority minority of Muslim people in Belgium, and I had good friends, close friends that were Muslim and we talked, you know, about the Quran and, you know, what they believe, what we believe. So very open. Also people from other faith. You know, like, I've always been aware of other people's faith and very respectful and trying to understand, you know, where they're coming from. So as much as I was sure of where I stood, I was very open to listening to what other people had to say about their faith. Okay, yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Was your mom super strict?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:30:15] She wanted to be, but she's very conservative. But at the same time, I don't know. I guess I wasn't a very. I wasn't a child who pushed boundaries too much. So we didn't really have conflict with my sister. It's a different story. She was an independent mind from the get go and she just, you know, she's a year and a half older than me, so we grew up together in the church, but came teenage years, she just asserted herself and she's like, I'm not going to have anything imposed on me and this is not how I feel. And she just kind of went her own.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] You were the good girl.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:30:59] I was the good girl. Well, yeah, picture. But I was really trying to be like, I was. It wasn't that I was doing bad things and then. No, I was trying to be that Mormon girl that, you know, is just straight lace, you know.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Now, when your mother joined the church, it was after the priesthood ban had been lifted.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:24] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] So was she. And were you aware of the priesthood band growing up?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:30] Not at all. Not at all. I learned about it later, probably in my teenage years.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:37] And my mother also, like a few years later, but okay. So in the 90s, it just wasn't taught. I mean, and. And also at that point, you know, yes, there is no Internet, but the missionaries and the church are really saying that, you know, don't go and read anything on the outside, because it's going to be all anti. It's all going to be against us. So do not read anything. And if people give you stuff, don't read it. So. And we follow that. I follow that for the longest time, you know, like I'm just not going to touch it, I'm not going to look at it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:12] And my mom, she's not really a researcher or anything, so it was easy for her to just stick to the scriptures and the church manuals, you know, so that wasn't an issue. And at some point we hear about it, but then it's like, yes, it happened in the past and it's not like that anymore. So we're not going to make a big issue about this. Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] So you didn't go, what the.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:32] Well, no, because I didn't really. It was kind of hearsay. So I knew it happened, but I hadn't read anything about it. So it's just. It happened. The church used to not give the priesthood to the black people, but it wasn't no expansion. And so it was just like it happened. But it's not like that anymore. So I kind of went on with my life. You know, it didn't bother me. There was nothing happening at church that would make me feel uncomfortable wanting to look into it. So I just kind of set it aside.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] So from a racial perspective, you didn't feel mistreated or you didn't experience racism?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:08] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] In your lived experience in Belgium?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:11] Not at all. Not at all. Not here, Not. I mean, not in Belgium, not here in the us I've never felt like racism. Like, you know, people may have thought stuff, but I don't really care about that. But like, not overtly, you know, I've never lived any experience like I've heard other people have. Okay, yes. Maybe when we talk about the marriage time, I can bring that up again a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] Okay. Yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:35] Alright.

Getting Called to Serve a Mission

John Dehlin [00:33:36] So you get called on a mission?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:39] I do.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Was that hard to make that decision to go on a mission or.

Guest [00:33:44] No?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:44] I always wanted to go on a mission. You know, what happened with me is like the way I was kind of brought up with my church and you know, it's like I had my life just all planned. So I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm. And it's all planned out and the mission is part of it and then I will go to byu. I knew I would go to byu. I didn't speak English. I had never stepped foot in the us But I Wanted to go to byu.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Your English is crazy good for not having learned English before college.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:14] No, I Learned English at 18 years old. That's crazy. I did a cultural Exchange program in D.C. and that's where I learned it in that year.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Before your mission?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:24] Before my mission, yes.

Guest [00:34:25] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] So you learned English in a year?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:28] Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Okay. All right. And so you got your call. How old were you when you got your call?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:34] 21.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] 21, yep. Okay. And you got called to Temple Square. Temple Square in Salt Lake City, Utah. Tell us about that. Let's. Let's dive into that. I've heard that's a tricky mission in some ways. Interesting, but tricky.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:48] Yes, yes. So when. Now. I thought they would send me to, like, Africa or something, you know, exotic like that. And I was happy because I was going to see a lot of the friends, you know, the returned missionaries who had served in Belgium. My family was really close to the missionaries since my mom was converted. She just loved the missionaries. We had them over, you know, every Sunday, you know, for dinner, and I was always out with them. So I was excited at the thought of seeing a lot of them coming to Salt Lake also, because I had gone out with them so much.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:35:25] I wasn't afraid of, you know, talking about my faith and sharing and, you know, that wasn't intimidating to me. In fact, I did not anticipate what kind of struggles I would have in Salt Lake. To me, it was like, oh, that's going to be such an easy mission, because people come to you and because they want to know. You don't go out to seek people out, but you have all these hundreds of people coming and asking, you know, what you're about. And so I'm like, that's gonna be so easy, you know? But, you know, it wasn't easy. It was easy to share the gospel, but I did have my.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:35:59] My. My struggles in the mission. The first one being, okay, there were. There were like, three blows. I call them like, my three. The three blows of my mission.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Okay, wait, what were the best things about it, working on Temple Square?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:14] The best thing about working on Temple Square is, like, you are traveling around the world without having to pay for it. Being associated with sisters from all over the world, learning about their culture, eating different foods, learning hearing and learning different languages. It's just. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful experience. And because you live in those quarters, those apartments, and because we don't go out when we transfer, we don't go out because Temple Square is our mission.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:45] So every month you have a new companion or you move apartments. And so it's like this musical apartment thing that we play. But we are always around each other. So we really get to know each other in a level, I think that doesn't happen in the field so much. I mean, maybe if you're with your companion for like several months, but we know each other throughout our mission. Until you transfer out or you go serve in the field. You know, we have that four month period in the field, so it's a beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] So you serve four months in the missionary field?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:16] Yes, outside of Temple Square.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Beginning, middle or end?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:19] It's usually in the middle in the wintertime. Right. When it, when it's cold and there is not so many visitors, then a good portion of the mission, maybe like a third of the mission goes out.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Where'd you go?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:33] I went to the Oregon Portland Mission.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] Really?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:36] Yes. And mostly I was in Vancouver, Washington.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] Nice.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:40] Very nice. Very beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] That's a great area.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:42] It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] That's southern Washington, right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] Right on the border. Oregon border, correct?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:48] Yes, it's right in the border.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] Beautiful area.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:50] It's beautiful. It rained the whole three months I was there. But it was fantastic. I mean, we were on bikes and dresses and rain gears and. And dressing in the rain. It was pretty funny. But it's not something I would do now. But I cherish the memories. It was beautiful.

Experiences as a Temple Square Missionary

John Dehlin [00:38:15] I've heard that, and this is just hearsay, that the Temple Square Mission has the most eating disorders of any sort of mission in the world. And this is just one person's perspective that there was a lot of competitiveness and focus on appearance, that this person said maybe wasn't the most healthy. I'm not trying to dig for dirt. I'm curious if that was your experience.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:38:39] It wasn't really my experience struggle. There was, but I don't recall that that was a specific issue, at least at the time I was there. I don't. I mean, there may have been one or two sisters struggling with things, but that was an issue. What I noticed more, I was in leadership on my mission also because it's a sister's mission. We do everything the elders do. You have district leaders, only their APs, and you know, we do that as sister missionaries. As sister missionaries, yes. This is why I've never really felt the, you know, anti feminist, you know, whatever. Like I've always felt empowered as, as a woman in the church because I, I did serve in, in leadership position, even at the mtc.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:22] It was like the coordinating sister Working with, you know, and then on Temple Square, I was. I was. I trained a couple of times, and then I was assistant to the president.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Really? Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] So you didn't feel like it was an unhealthy culture between the sister missionaries? You felt like.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:43] No. I mean, you may have a little bit of, you know, appearance issue or insecurities, but that, I think is just women in general. I don't think, think it's Temple Square. I think there was a lot of love, a lot of support.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:56] There may have been a few. I mean, of course there were. There were some fights and a lot of, you know, when you go on your mission and you really are face to yourself, you're forced to dig into yourself and you're trying to be this perfect person. You realize that you have all these challenges and. And you have to work through it. And for a lot of sisters, it brings back some, maybe some trauma that they might have been in the past, because they're really digging inside. And so there has been sisters. I mean, I've had companions who struggle more psychologically because you just have to be honest with how you feel.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:40:42] And, you know, and so if there is something that hasn't been resolved, it usually pops up. And I hear that it happens also in regular missions because you're just so. I mean, you have to think about who you want to become, who you are. You want to be, you know, honest with, you know, being this disciple of Christ. And yeah, it can be a forced psychotherapy sometimes where. And sometimes you're not prepared for it, and it just kind of blows up in your face. So I've seen sisters struggle with that.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] So the traditional Mormon missionary experience is to have this pool of investigators and to tract and then to find some investigators you can teach and then eventually bring some into the waters of baptism. Do sister missionaries at Temple Square get any of that or something like that, other than when they're.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:36] Yes, that's why we go to the field to. To have that experience. But on Temple Square, mostly, we tell people about the basics of who we are, what we believe, since we're in Salt Lake. And they have. I mean, Temple Square has the pioneers as Joseph Smith has the temple. We don't have like a set of discussion. We basically take a little bit of all the discussion in one meeting with the visitors. So it's usually a 45 minutes to one hour tour that we give them, and we tell them a little bit about how the pioneers got into the valley and how they got settled and how Joseph Smith you know, founded the church.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:22] And so we talk about the temple, that we get married in the temple. We talk a little bit about everything. You know, we talk about prophets, because the tabernacle is there. And apostles. Apostles. At the time when I served general conference was still happening in the tabernacle, and they were building the new conference center. I mean, the conference center now. So we get to talk to people about just a little bit of everything.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:45] And they ask us questions, whatever they want, and we need to just kind of be prepared to answer their questions. So you have everything thrown at you, including all the anti. And one of my first kind of shocking experience was shortly after I left the MTC went and started on Temple Square. There was the Baptist Convention. I don't know if you remember that, like, back in 98, I believe.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:43:18] Yes, 98. And they came in the thousands, basically, to tell us that we were wrong, that we needed to repent. And. And it was quite overwhelming because they would come in, like, groups and, you know, kind of surround us and start asking all these tricky questions. And we had been instructed not to argue with them, you know, not to get in a fight. Like, if, you know, if we could answer some questions, that was fine. But if we saw that they really wanted to kind of corner us, then we needed to step away, just bear your testimony and walk away. You know, wish them well and, you know, but it was quite interesting because for me, who's from Europe, and churches are not that prominent, like Baptist church, and they're not.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:44:02] You don't really see them. It was really a spiritual and a cultural experience for me to come across, you know, evangelists and people who would ask me to, like, kneel down now and pray with us. You know, I'm like, okay, right, let's hold hands and kneel right here and ask the Lord. And I'm like, okay, sure.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] But one thing I'm just trying to get at is you don't get the sense of, like, taking someone into the waters of baptism as a Temple Square missionary, or do you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:44:34] Because people are passing through. We try to invite. We invite them at the end of each tour to tell us how they. They felt, how. How was the. The experience, and then leave their information for wherever they're from. And we get those referrals, if you will, that we send them to the mission where they belong, back home to their home. So that goes all over the world. All over the US all over the world. And we just hope that they will continue on, that the missionaries will pick up the referral Go and see them and keep and continue on with them.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] But would you ever hear that someone did it again?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:45:12] Very rarely. Occasionally, but very rarely do we hear back. And that's the hardest part, I think, of that mission is that you don't see the result. You don't see the fruits of your labor. It's a seed, we call it like you planting seeds and hope that they will grow wherever they are.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Now, did you bump into general authorities while you were.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:45:34] All the time. All the time.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Do you have any stories or fun stories about that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:45:38] Yes, I mean, I talk. Where do I start? Like, we lived, like, behind Temple Square in apartments on, like, Main street or State Street, I can't remember which was a block away, not even from where. You know, those pink apartments where President Hinckley used to live? And there was, I think, Elder Foster in those apartments. And so, yes, we would run into them because they would go to the church of his building. So we'd just stop and they talk to us super nice all the time.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:46:09] Elder Perry was super nice all the time. And Elder Faust was a great man. I met him before in Europe, but just very genuine. And then during General Conference, they would go underneath the tabernacle, the old one where they used to have conference, and ride with their little golf carts. And we would be down there because there is the referral center. And we would just see them. Like, we would just, you know, say hi, you know, and talk to them sometimes. And so that was a very common thing, to just see them and exchange a few words. And it was very pleasant most of the time.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Did you ever have the chance to get to know any of them or spend any significant time?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:46:53] Not on the mission. Not on a mission. Ok. Before and after. On the mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Okay, last question before we jump into the three hard things. How would you have described sort of how your testimony was rooted up until your mission? Like, had you had spiritual experiences, what was your testimony based on and what did it mean to you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:47:17] I've always considered myself as having a very strong testimony. Like, I received my first Book of Mormon when I was eight years old, when at my baptism, like my own Book of Mormon. And I think I read it then I read the whole thing then when I was 8, and I marked it and, you know, and I loved it. And I loved the Scriptures and I felt very close to God and to Christ and I felt like the scripture spoke to me and answered all my questions. And yes, and I was very. I had a very vibrant testimony and that I was happy to Share. And, and I went with that on my mission and I was, you know, super motivated.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Had you had those moments where you asked if it was true or wanted a witness and then felt like you received a witness?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:48:10] Yeah, I don't know, like, it. It kind of feels like I've always known and seen, so it was just always there and I would feel the spirit strongly. And I don't know if I was overly emotional person or something, but I, you know, I was just in. I feel like in touch with maybe other people in the spirit or like when I read, I felt what I read and I'm like, you know, it's like, yes, I can say that I felt it very much like. And I felt like I had received answer that I believed the church was true and you know, the only one and true church on the face of the earth. And yes, I believed all that.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] Okay, so tell us about the three hard things.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:48:54] So the three hard things that happened on my mission, now I can only remember two, but. So the first one was the Baptist Convention. That was a bit hard because they would come up with things that I had never heard before, like really test us on, like, you know, like, is God like three different beings or one? And I mean, they were just challenging, you know, the things that I thought I knew so well and I didn't know how to explain them very well. And so that was challenging for me to have, you know, all these people trying to prove me wrong and not feeling very prepared to answer their questions.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:49:33] And all I could do was just bear my testimony and tell them I knew it was true. So that was one. The second, which is I'm telling you in order that it happened. But the second, which is actually the hardest thing that happened on missions, that one of my brother passed away. And that was very, very difficult. One of my three older brothers passed away. The youngest of the three

John Dehlin [00:49:58] closest to him other than your sister. Excuse me, in age. You were closest in age?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:03] Yes, yes, yes. And I knew he was very depressed and struggled with drugs before I left on my mission. But he came to my. To my farewell. And his wife at the time came too. And they had told me. Well, she had told me that he was. Was going to a recovery center and that he was going to be taken care of. So I left with that thought that he was going to be taken care of.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:33] And so when I learned that he passed away, it was really shocking for me and very, very difficult because at that point I have to decide, what do I do? Do I stay? Do I Leave. And my first impression is, I need to leave right this minute. You know, my sister calls and, you know, it's just this really horrible thing.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:58] And I'm like, I need to be with my nieces and nephews. I can't. This is all because up to then, you know, the mission is just easy and kind of nice. Like, I'm having a good time here, but now it's time to go back to real life and be there for those who need me most. And my first reaction was, I need to go home now. So I go and see my mission president, and he's like, sister Villegas, I will do whatever you want. If you want to leave this afternoon, I can get you a plane ticket. But before you do that, I would like you to go back to your apartment with your companion and pray and try to find out what the Lord wants you to do.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:34] And I do that. And somehow I feel that I need to stay. I feel like. And I'm like, lord, I really want to go, to go and be with my family. But. And I wrote all of this in my journal, and all these scriptures come to my mind all in a sudden that, you know, you have to let the dead bury the dead, you know, from the New Testament that you need to take your cross upon you and follow me.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:52:08] I will take care of them. You know, the love that I have for your family is way bigger than what you can give them. And you need to trust me on that. I mean, those are answers that at the time, came to me, and I want to go home. But yet I receive these answers, and so I end up staying on the mission, which.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] You were getting emotional for a second. I'm curious. What was it about that exploration and ambivalence about whether to stay or go home that brought up emotions for you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:52:47] Well, it was a hard thing. I mean, my whole family suffering. My nieces and nephews are in total disarray. I'm not there to help them. It was very difficult. They're not members, my brother's wife and children, and they have no way to understand.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:53:05] They have no way to understand. How is it possible? I'm sorry, I wasn't planning on this, but how is it possible that our aunt, who loves us so much, is not here to be with us? And I can't explain it to them because they don't really understand the gospel or see it as I see it, and it's rough.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:53:35] How do you explain that? How do you explain that you're not there? Your brother just died. You do not go to the funeral. You're not there for your mom, who's completely in complete desiree. And yet I felt that I was doing the right thing, that if I stayed and served the Lord, he would take care of them better than I could if I were there.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:53:58] And so. And I had several things happen after that that continued to confirm to me that I did the right thing. Like, I would go to the temple, and then all of a sudden, I talk about this in my book. I'm writing a memoir, and there's more details to all these stories, but just, I don't really believe in coincidence. And just all these different things happen.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:21] My mission present gave me a blessing, saying that, you know, I would feel the presence of angels comforting me. And when I went to the temple, I did feel that. I did feel I was really worried about my brother because he was not a member and he struggled with drugs and that. And for me, it was more like, where is he? Like, is he going to hell? You know, and just the comfort that I felt going to the temple, that he's okay, wherever he's at, don't worry. He's taken care of.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:53] He's taken care of, and you don't need to worry about that, you know, and just having that knowledge that. Or that. That assurance, because it's not a knowledge, but that he's fine. He's. He's going to continue on his journey. He's not, you know, it's not over for him, for his spiritual, you know, whatever happens. And just having that feeling, the love of God just in the temple. And, like, I remember one time going and doing baptism. You know, we at. On temple square, we get to go. Go once a week on our p day to the temple, to the Salt Lake temple.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:22] So one time we went and we did baptism. And the guy who was in the baptism, I found striked a conversation with me and started telling me that he had just lost a sister and his mother and, you know, and, like, right there in the water.

Difficult Experiences During the Mission

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:40] And so we exchanged something that at the time was meaningful because I was just going through this really hard experience there, and I felt like the Lord was kind of sending me, sending people in my way that could help me, you know, keep going.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:00] And it did change the rest of my mission. I wasn't that confident. And, you know, this is so easy. And, you know, I got this, you know, I. I continued on my mission with a much more humble demeanor and really trying to understand what the gospel was about. And, you know, like, yes, teaching with Maybe a depth that wasn't there before.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Yeah. You're going to take your mission a lot more seriously when you sacrifice so much to stay. So why do you characterize the death of your brother as a significant. I can see why it was a significant event in your mission, but sort of did that relate to your testimony in any way or sort of connect to something that became problematic for you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:50] Not really. Not really. And yeah, I mean, today I kind of don't want to go and look back too much into it. I feel like what happened needed to happen at the time. With the knowledge I had and experiences I had. I don't want to go. Go back and try to undo, you know, what was done. But it was hard just because. Yes. I mean, throughout my mission, I kept suffering. I mean, I kept hold. I mean, it's not like the burden was lifted overnight. It kept being hard knowing that my mother was just in a mourning that would never cease, that continues to this day, that, you know, my nieces and nephews. I mean, just. Yes. I just carried that burden with me all along afterwards. So.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Okay, so was there a final thing that was kind of a jarring thing for you on your mission?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:57:46] Yes. Which is unrelated, but I kind of say it maybe in chronological order when it happened, but just learning more about the whole blacks and the priesthood, you know, and the whole, you know, racism and some. Yes, I remember it very well. We had anti people around Temple Square all the time. And I was just handed a sheet of paper and it's like, this guy was like. Like, I don't understand why you're a part of this church. Like, you're black. I'm like, well, so what? You know, it's like, we'll read this and then, you know, you'll know, like, this church is totally racist, you know, and so I wrote this stuff. It was just basically quotes from McConkey, Brigham Young. And I had never read that.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] And you have them?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:31] Yes. You want me to read them?

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Are you comfortable reading them or.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:35] I can. I can. I need to turn that on.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Do you remember, like, when you were reading them? Like, do you remember the time you were where you just look at the paper? Were you.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:46] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] On the Internet. Were you reading a book?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:48] Like, what do you mean?

John Dehlin [00:58:50] When.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:50] When.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] I'm trying to think of the time when you, like, are, like, looking at these quotes.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:55] Yes, I received them on a piece of paper.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Okay. From someone on the street.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:59] From someone on the street.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] So you're like, at zcmi?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:59:01] No, I'm on the square. I'm on the square.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:59:04] And he. He's not allowed. He's not allowed in because he's. He's anti. So he's behind the gate, and he passes it through me. Through the gates.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] Okay. And your companion is, like, next to you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:59:15] I don't know. Like, we're allowed to roam around on our own as long as we're in the square. So it's not like the other mission where you just have to be together all the time. So she may or may not have been there. I don't remember. But I just take that from him and I start reading it during my break or something, and I'm totally shocked.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Okay, so read what you wrote, what you read, if you're comfortable.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:59:38] So here is one from Broussard McConkie. He says, in a broad, general sense, caste systems have their origin in the Gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate, Cain, Ham and the whole Negro race have been cursed with the black skin, the mark of Cain. So they can be identified as a cast apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry. That's one of them.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] And what. What were you thinking when you read that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:00:20] I'm like, what the heck? That's B.S. that's what I thought right away. Here is Brigham Young from the Journal Discourses. Shall I tell you the love God in regard to the African race in the white man? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so. That bit shocking.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] And I probably don't need to tell you that your. Your mother was the daughter of a biracial marriage.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:00:56] Yes, yes, yes. I mean, and it goes, like, way back in my family. Like, we were just a rainbow, like, all all along and up to this day.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] So that quote.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:01:06] Yeah, like, but I mean, to me, just because of how I've been raised and whatnot. Like, it. It was. It was like, crazy. Like, it was like, I know that's wrong. And. But what? But I was still shocked that, you know, they could say stuff like that. So what I did, I just went to my mission presence office with those quilts, and I'm like, what is this? And he was very uncomfortable with that. He's like, you know, he didn't believe that either. And he's like, I'm really sorry. This is really, you know, it's not true.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:01:43] And he told me his whole, I love my mission President. That president. I was his assistant, and I'm not going to say his name just so. But he was. I really, really love him to this day. He's someone I look up to. He's a wonderful man. And he shared with me his experience that he's a convert to the church. And he always struggled with that, the fact that, you know, the priesthood wasn't given to blacks. And he joined the church before the ban was lifted. And he told me that when, you know, they announced on the radio that the ban was lifted, that he. He just pulled out.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:02:19] He was in his car listening to the radio. He pulled out, pulled on to the side and just started bawling, just started crying because he was so happy that this was happening, because he never felt comfortable with that. And I think it happened with many people where they had this dissonance happening, but they believed the church was true. So they didn't know why, but they were happy when. I mean, I know some people weren't happy, but I know a lot of people were happy when it happened. So. Yep. Sorry, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] So when you talked to him, did he make you feel better? Did that resolve it for you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:02:52] Yes, well, it didn't resolve it, but he did make me feel better. And he did tell me, you know what? It's in the past, it's not like this anymore, you know, and the other thing I did was I wrote because I was upset for a while.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:03:05] It wasn't just I wrote to President Hinckley and just sent him the quotes and send a letter at the time you could just do that. He was right there. So even if you couldn't, I mean, he was just right across the street. So. And I received kind of a politically correct answer that, you know, that's we don't believe that anymore and just, you know, like scriptures quotes this and that, but kind of a, you know, not. I'm. We're so sorry. You know, this is really painful material. And we're sorry that, you know, it hurts you. Like, it wasn't like that. It was just like, we don't believe it anymore.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:03:37] You know, scripture says this and that and the end, you know, so. Yeah, but then I left it at that. Then I was like, okay, fine, you know, it's behind. Let's leave it behind. And I just went on with it.

Post-Mission Life and Marriage

John Dehlin [01:03:51] So, finished your mission?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:03:52] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] So any other. Any other stories from your mission that are important to kind of where we're going in this interview or is that

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:02] I had a wonderful mission. Honestly, like, I can't say that, you know, yes, it wasn't easy always, but it was great. It was a great experience. You know, I don't have any at that point. I'm really very, you know, I'm following the Prophet, I'm following the apostles, I'm doing, you know, what I'm supposed to do. And I'm just following the program here. So everything is just working according to plan right now. So you go to byu, then I go back home.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:31] I worked for a while in Belgium and then, yes, I go to byu. And that's also a good experience for me. I kind of hung out with people who thought a little bit differently, like the liberals within my major, political science.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:49] We were, I think, the ones who thought a little bit outside of the box. The whole 911 happened while I was in college and those war and we were against the war. So we had this very interesting debate going on.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:03] I studied the Middle East a little bit and have lived with Arab people, so I understand their culture. Not that I supported any of what the 911 people did, but to put everyone in the same basket was not the right thing. And I didn't think the war was. I mean, we're not going to get into that, but yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] So a good BYU experience.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:28] Yes. I meet my husband didn't experience racism or any problem? No. All the country I think I had over attention. Like I received extra attention, extra love because I was, you know, the minority. It was different, but to me it was like, you know, yeah, okay, good things.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] Nice to feel special.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:49] I felt special. Special. So.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] Okay, so when you, when you met and married your husband, did you ever experience any concern about an interracial marriage at all?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:59] Not me, because in my family it's just happens all the time. That's how they do it. Exactly. So, you know, color skin is like color eyes, color hair. Same thing, same difference. You know, I have nephews and nieces, blonde with blue eyes and my sister, he's the latest, who married and she married an Asian, which we hadn't had in the family yet. But I mean, it's really a rainbow in which we love and we're just very open and open people. So on my side, no, but on my husband's side, that was a new thing. And he was a little bit. He didn't know how that would go.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] He's from where?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:39] He was born in Texas. Grew up in Arizona. No, he was born in Arizona. Sorry. But grew up mostly in Texas, so very conservative family, but very open, too. Like, my in laws just embraced me from the get go. Even when they didn't know me, they've always been very kind and very accepting. Even if I'm the only black person in the family, they're all very, very kind and open. And he was a little bit worried about his grandparents who would say things, you know, as he, when he was growing up that were quite a bit racist or a lot. So it was a bit of a concern to introduce me to his grandparents. But then, you know, anyone who meets me likes me. No, but they were. They were nice. They were not offended or weird out or. It went really well.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Okay, so you got married? No. No big deal. All right, so when did things start getting difficult in terms of your church experience?

Guest [01:07:45] Church.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:07:46] Okay, well, so we get married, we go and so finish byu, lived in Utah for a little while, then we go and live in Houston. And we're both still very, you know, very orthodox, I would say Mormon. So things are going well for me. For my husband, he's a little different. Like, he's. He's always kind of questioned things and he's a thinker, so, you know, like, yes, I think he's kind of always kind of questioned all along, and a lot of things kind of bothered him, but he wouldn't really talk about it with me.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:08:22] So he kind of trudged along and tried. Like, he really tried to, you know, maybe I'm not praying enough or doing this enough or. But he just carries also this huge guilt, like, since forever that really burdens him. Like, see, for me, it's a different story because we're convert. We came voluntarily. It wasn't our culture around that imposed, you know, our beliefs on us. But for him, that's how he grew up. You know, pioneer ancestry, pretty orthodox upbringing. Things are expected of him. And, you know, even though it's. I don't know, like, it's just those expectations that are there. And yes, he. The way he tells the story, he just has a lot of guilt all the time that he's not doing enough.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:09] He's not doing, you know, all that he should be doing. And so that's how he lives the gospel until things starts getting a little harder. So we're in Houston. Things are still going fine. I mean, we're active in the church and everything. And then we move to Switzerland. We moved about what year that is in 2009.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] Okay. How many children do you have by then?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:31] By then we have two.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:33] We have two kids.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] All right, 2009, two kids. You're in Switzerland.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:38] And there things start getting a little rougher for him and for me because of language, but for him because he realizes, you know, I stayed in the church mostly because of the culture, and he says that. And here I am not. I'm not close to anyone in church. And was it a German or French speaking German? German speaking, yes. German speaking.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] You don't speak German?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:10:09] No, but I learned fairly quickly that I was comfortable. I mean, at the beginning, it's really hard, but then I learned enough that, you know, that wouldn't have been the reason why I don't want to. But for him, yes, he doesn't connect with the people very well and the language barrier. And so he kind of. And the motivation, because I think it's around that time that he decides, no, I'm going to go ahead and read the Book of Mormon. You know, I haven't done it for a long time. I'm going to read it from beginning to end and try to really get into it and understand and, you know, really figure out how do I feel about this.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:10:48] Like, you know, where do I stand? And as he reads and he tells me this later, he doesn't really tell me he. When he's doing it, you know, but he starts seeing discrepancies that really start playing with his mind. And it's like, you know, like, there wasn't horses and this wasn't there. And that doesn't make sense because he's a researcher and he doesn't take things just for granted or for what they were. It's like, well, did that really. And it's not like he had read something that made him go and look for what's wrong in here. He just came out on his own with all these things, finding all these discrepancies.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:11:32] And anyways, he saw things that really bothered him. And it's like, I don't think I can believe that this is historically, you know, what it says it is. But he kept that to himself. Like, he didn't tell me, but that's what happened with him. And then he starts slowly kind of detaching himself, you know, getting inactive and whatnot. But so for me, it happens later, like, where, you know, it's like, I'm going on this journey where I want to be. I want to kind of find myself. And I don't know if there is, like a stage in life, like in your 30s, mid-30s, where you kind of want to kind of rediscover yourself and just be.

Encountering Faith Challenges and New Perspectives

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:12:18] Find your authentic self or whatnot. And I read a lot of books. I read the Road Less Traveled. And it really impacts me in a very profound way where I am kind of constantly doing, like, psychotherapy on myself. I'm like, you know, so what's going on here? What is it you believe? And, you know, then I read. And this is in 2010, 11. I can't remember which year, but I read Escape from Carolyn Jessup. Right. And that.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] Daughter of Warren Jessup.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:12:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] Prophet of the FLDS church.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:12:54] Yes. Who escapes. And for the first time in my life, I find out who the FLDS really are. Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. Like, I had heard of them. I had heard of the rlds and this and that, but I never really looked at who these people are. So I read this book. I'm totally floored, floored that, first of all, they exist. I mean, the way they do, that they're capable of carrying on with such appalling ways of abuse and manipulative. And I'm like, how is anyone not seeing this and not doing anything about this? I'm like, how is this possible?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:13:38] And I admire her for getting out of there on her own after generations of being there. I mean, that's all she's ever known until she goes to college, gets smarter, and realizes this is wrong. I mean, you go to college or you learn how to think. To me, it's not just about going to college, but it's learning how to think and freeing your mind, you know, let it understand things the way you know it should be. So she gets out of there with her whatever, eight kids or 10 kids, I mean, a total hero.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:14:17] So that's one thing. Just her resilience. But then I was so. I was a little bit shocked by a lot of things that I found in that community that resembled so much what I was seeing in our community. And at that point, I remember posting on Facebook, like, you guys, everybody has to read that book and really find out who these people are, because they are closer to, like, the original church than we are. And some of the abusive situations there are happening here in the mainstream. And if we don't look at it, I mean, it will perpetuate or, you know, go worst, I don't know.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:00] But I have seen, like, priesthood abuse and, you know, mistreatment of women. And so not that it's rampant, but. But it's happening and we need to just look at what's happening there in order not to do the same.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:16] And to me, that was, like, the first. And I was also upset with the fact that all these, like, FLDS refugees, you know, who are kicked out of their communities and just, like, wandering on the road and nobody's helping them. It's like. And this is happening in Utah, like, the state where my church, my one and only true church is, and nobody's doing anything. It's like, I believe my church is, like, ultra wealthy. Not just wealthy. Ultra wealthy. How come there isn't, like, a shelter somewhere for these kids? Because they are a part of us. Like, you may treat them like they're these weirdos that we have nothing to do with, but I'm sorry, they're your cousins, they're your family.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:58] Like, whether you like it or not, they're your family. And the simple fact that at least I had never heard of, like, a shelter. Well, I learned about some later. But not that our church created, like, just. Just good people out there that have a good heart. But that just kind of destroyed me at the. At the time. Like, I was really upset with the institution, with our institution for not helping these kids who are totally clueless when they come out of that, you know. So anyway, so that's where it started a little bit, where I'm like, I don't know, I'm not like 100% agreeing anymore.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:16:41] But it's like these things you hear about, at least in the people who have had crisis of faith, you hear about the shelf or the dam, you have all these little things that bother you, but you put them away. Put them away. You put them away. Or you try to patch the holes until doesn't go anymore. And then it just, you know, the flood goes on. So this is happening. And then my husband is also, I mean, continues on his journey where he's like, much further.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:17:10] Like, he has this colleague at work who is just fascinated by the fact that he's a Mormon and is, like, you know, wanting to know everything about him and, you know, kind of reading about Mormons and always asking questions. And then one time he comes and he's like, oh, did you know Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon as a hat and a stone? And my husband's like, nah, that didn't happen like that. It's like, yeah, yeah. And it's like, no. And then he goes, does his research and find out. Yeah, it's true. And that kind of made him mad. He's like, how do I not know that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:17:44] How do I have to find out from, like, some external source that this is how it happened, you know, and he's, you know, for me, I grew up in Europe. I don't have pioneer ancestry. We don't tell these pioneer stories around the table because that's just not my thing. I mean, our thing. But for him, who is from pioneer ancestry should know this stuff. I mean, it's pretty basic, you know, like, and the fact that he didn't know really upset him. It's like, what else do I not know? Well, at the same time, rough stone rolling is kind of making its way, way through. Right? I mean, it came out, what, 2008, 2007, something like that?

John Dehlin [01:18:17] 2005, I think.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:18:19] Oh, okay. Well, it came. We, we heard about it later. A friend of his who's, you know, very active in the church tells him about this book. Listen, you should read this and just try to find out a little bit more about the history. And then he reads that and gets really, really upset with the whole polygamy thing. Didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I didn't know. And it's like, what the, you know, like, what else do we not know? And so just.

John Dehlin [01:18:46] And you had read that Jeff's book and so now you find out Joseph.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:18:50] Yes. And I'm like, these guys are the same. No, I mean, it's like this is the church how it was. Like the flds, that's kind of how it was. And they're closer. Except that I think Joseph Smith was a little bit more, I mean, he was more intelligent. Like, you know, I don't think he was like Warren Jeff. I think it was totally different. Like, I'm not trying to say that, you know, but like just the way, I mean, the whole polygamy thing, the way they live, you know, it's. So anyways, he finds out all these things that he's like, you know, this is just too much.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:19:22] You know, I need to take a step back and reassess here. And at that point, I haven't read anything yet. And he's just trying to tell me a few things here and there, but I'm like, oh, I don't want to know.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:19:34] Things are fine. You know, I'm just doing my own thing here. And you know, and it's, it's sad because he's going through full on faith crisis all alone. He doesn't know anything about the communities out there and he's not someone who like shares his feelings or anything like that. So he's suffering on his own and I'm not there to support him because I don't want to know, you know, it's all anti and it's just, you know, don't rock my boat, you know, like.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:20:03] But again, I'm also someone who reads a lot and like I read that Escape book and so I'm going also on my journey, but it's not the same as his. So then I don't know, I just get into the always trying to work on myself, see how I can better myself in every way, physically, spiritually. And I read all these books and I, you know, and I come across Brittney Brown and I love her stuff and what she says and what, you know, how she presents it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:20:36] And I'm like, you know, I am totally going to get rid of shame, guilt, fear, you know, that's it. I'm just going to say when I disagree and stop trying to represent always with all these, I guess now I, I know it's cognitive dissonance, you know, I'm not going to try to live with that. I'm going to really try to, you know, say when I don't agree and if it's conflicting with my church, then it's just too bad. But I need to be at peace with myself and what I believe.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:21:14] And so from then on, what happens? Just so many things happen. I mean there is probate, which I hear about later and you know, there is the Romney, you know, running for president, I mean, just the Mormon, you know, moment, like the spotlights which kind of forces you to look at, you know, what's happening and you know, so here you have the historical stuff on one side and then you have, you know, what's happening today and it's kind of happening at the same time, which it's a lot of stuff to juggle, you know, trying to understand the history and trying to see, you know, do I agree or not with what's happening here now today with the whole gay issue.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:21:59] And so how does that happen? Well, to go back a little bit, my sister in law, my sister in law who's came out as a lesbian a year before we moved, so we're going back in time a little bit here and I had a really hard time with that. I had a really, not because she's gay, but just because of the whole situation.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:22:27] You know, she was married, had four kids and my reaction is just really awful. Like I literally don't talk to her for like few years as before. We were really close and shared everything. I mean we love them, we would have given our kids to them if we died. To be adopted. She's an excellent mother, still is, but this whole thing just kind of blows up in the family. And I am facing my own feeling about the whole issue and realize I'm really not that open.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:23:04] And I'm kind of aligning really, you know, this is not what God wants and this and that. Until what happened. What happens? I don't know. And I have other friends who are gay, and I know they are. They haven't opened up to me, but. And we're friends. Like, I haven't, you know, judged them or, like, told them off or anything like that, but I realized that really do not understand the gay issue.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:23:30] I do not. I know I have my position because that's the position my church has, and that's the position I grew up with. And at some point, I ask myself, I guess, what do you even know about them? You know, and at that point, I come across, you know, I go on the lds, you know, Mormons and gays websites and things. I start reading, I start informing myself.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:23:56] And then I listened to the LDS Voices of Hope stories and that. Excuse me. Yes. I listened to every single one of those testimonies. And it broke me. It broke me to the ground. It broke me to the ground the amount of pain that we have inflicted as a church.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:24:21] And that's not even, like, the bad stuff, because these people on LDS Voices of Hope are hopeful, right? I mean, but just listening to their upbringing and their interaction with the bishops, like, giving them some, like, phony counsels, most of them literally leading them to live the life, and, you know, it just breaks my heart and makes me mirror myself. Makes me realize, you know, you haven't been standing in the right place. Because we say things sometimes, as orthodox Mormons, that are very hurtful. And we don't realize it, you know, because we think we're so right in our ways that we just hurt people. We don't even know among us who is struggling with this.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:25:08] And we will say things that will break people. And I probably did, too. Not intentionally, but this is where everyone has to be informed and to know. And to get to know these, our gay brothers and sisters, get to know them before you form an opinion. And yes, some may say, well, my brother is gay and this and that, but then they hunker down so much on what the church says and they want take a step back. At times, I can't speak for everyone, but I've seen situations where, you know, it's like, no, I will not accept you this way. I mean, we know people have been kicked out.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:25:48] We know people, you know, parents are ashamed or, you know, and I'm not saying it's not a difficult thing to deal with, even from, you know, an orthodox Mormon perspective, but getting to know them instead of trying to fix, bring answers, bring, you know, this is how it should be.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:26:07] Just shut up for a moment and listen to their stories, see where they're coming from. Because I guarantee you that if you spend the time, you listen to all of these stories and more and then go talk to them on the street and you will see how you feel. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:26:27] So when did things reach crisis point? How did they go from this to kind of where you were?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:26:33] Well, from that moment on, I'm an ally.

John Dehlin [01:26:36] What year was that about?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:26:37] This is. When did that happen? Not that long ago. Like, what are we, 2013?

John Dehlin [01:26:45] I would say, okay, couple years ago.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:26:47] So. And you know, I'm an ally. Like, I don't even know like that word. It's just like, you know, I am going to defend these people and speak up and you know, and then my, my sister in law got married in. When is it like 2014.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] She was married to a woman?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:27:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Where?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:27:07] In Salt Lake. When, when the law passed. She was one of the first one to. Was it in 2014?

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:27:13] So she, yeah, she was on the New York Times and everything, like front cover and you know, and I post that on my Facebook. I'm like, good for you. You know, congratulations. At that point, I still struggle a little, I'm not gonna lie. It's not like overnight you're like, oh, I accept this fully. But I'm like, you know what? If this is your happiness, I want you to be happy. And I will deal with my things, my struggles, you know, my feelings, whatever, but I want you to be happy. And, and, and a lot of people were offended, of course, that I would post that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:27:45] You know, some of my mission friends like, oh, you know, how do you pose this? And you know, you oppose the prophet and this and that. And I'm like, well, this is how I feel. I feel like if that's how she's happy, I am going to be happy with her, you know, and that's that, you know, so yes, but from that time on, I think I'm really seen as like kind of an antagonist, you know, and I will defend and I'm kind of outspoken, so I'm like, you know what, don't like it? Go look at someone else's page, you know, so anyways, that's you know, what happens with that issue.

Evolving Views on LGBT Issues in the Church

John Dehlin [01:28:24] Okay, so take us to that point. Take us from that point to where you actually feel like you need to write an op ed in the solitairview.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:28:31] Whoa. Well, that took a while actually, because this happened in 2014. Well, then I come across with your podcast somehow. Like, I think I was looking into, like, what was I looking into? The issues of like Mormon and sexuality and this and that and the Mormons. Sex girl. I don't know what she's called.

John Dehlin [01:29:00] Natasha. Mormon therapist Alpha Parker.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:29:03] Yes. She has like. No, I don't think it's her.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Jennifer Finlayson Fife.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:29:07] No, no, it wasn't her. It's a therapist, but she deals with couples and their sexuality and talks about. She's on a. I think she went on a thoughtful faith on a few.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] It's probably Natasha.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:29:22] So anyways. But I think you have an interview with her at some point. Yes. And so I listened to that and I find it very interesting and I kind of really came across that just because I typed Mormon and sexuality, you know, because there is issues there too, but.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:29:37] And I thought it was very interesting what she was saying. And then, you know, I saw that you had more podcasts. You know, I just downloaded the thing on my, on my phone and you know, and then I looked at, you know, blacks in the priesthood and just I kind of went scrolled through and that's how I kind of got, you know, hooked to the Mormon stories. So I liked you. I was like, that's a great guy. He's like so enlightening and, you know, it's so great that he would just take people from all spectrum term, you know, believers, non believers, ex, and have everyone's point of view and just try to understand where are they coming from, you know, without making.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:30:10] Passing a judgment. Oh, because he's left the church. Anything he says has no value anymore. Like, I really do not endorse that. Everyone has their stories. Everyone has something of value to say. And it's not because you're not in the church anymore that, you know, you just shut down and nothing good can come out of your mouth. Like, I don't endorse that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:30:33] So I listened and in fact, listening to Mormon stories helped me, help me make sense of all the stuff that I had found out, you know, history that I struggle with, Joseph Smith being a polygamist and, you know, all sorts of things. You know, the way, you know, the Book of Mormon came about and the first vision, multiple versions, you know, like, it all kind of came at the same time for me. And I know a lot of people are like, well you should have done your homework and just how come you don't know? Well, we are thousands out there and I think you can testify of that who found out very recently all of the things.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:31:12] And we were very involved, very active as far as I'm concerned. I did work for the church education system right before my mission. I taught at emtc. I did EFY for like nine weeks in a row. I mean I was really immersed in it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:31:30] And yes, and I read so much, you know, but it's always the spiritual things and the things that they are willing to give us. Right? You are being spoon fed the right information. And so no, I never knew none of this stuff. And yes, it makes me feel dumb like an absolute idiot who doesn't know her church, you know, when you don't know, like, you know. So anyways, I was, I was very angry at the beginning. I was really, really angry. I was like a child having a tantrum. And I think a lot of my friends did not really understand why I was acting like that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:32:06] And you know, while on a sudden she says all these mean things, things about the church and the betrayal and this and that. And I'm like, well that's how it felt for me. It was like really. The carpet had been pulled, the rug had been pulled under my feet, from under my feet and my whole foundation was broken under my feet. And yes, I was really upset. I was really upset because here I am giving you my whole heart and soul standing in the front line protecting you. I would have like laid down my life to protect my church. And you know, and here you pull that on me, you know, like, no, I wish you had told me.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:32:45] I wish you had trickled those historical facts down the line. I understand that, you know, presenting it all like, you know, Richard Bushman and Russell and Rowling is a little bit tough. Like maybe for the whole of the membership.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:33:01] But there could have been a way to trickle it down within the church. Manuals. I'm not saying, well, it's an institute. Well, how many people go to institute worldwide? I'm not talking statewide, but worldwide, how many people do institute? Not that many because, well, it's in the institute manual. Well, that's a little bit too much of a dig.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:33:22] We have manuals every Sunday. We have lessons. We could have talked about, about that, you know, and the whole polygamy issue in the end. Yes, of course. For me it was shocking, you know, that Joseph was A polygamist. I thought he started with Brigham Young. So I got it completely wrong. But then past that point, it's like, okay, he was polygamous. What about the wives? Who are they? Can we talk about them? Are they not important?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:33:50] Do their lives do not matter? Because I've been taught that every soul is. Is important in the eyes of God. I've been taught that you should keep your history, that you should record your history. And I've done that. I've got tons of journals, and I'm like, why is it that their lives weren't important? Why is it that I've only heard about Emma and what are the names of the others and who are they? What did they do? It's important to me. They're people. They're not ghosts. So anyways, I struggle with that. I struggle with that. So you found Mormon stories and started informing myself on everything I could.

Writing the Op-Ed and Finding Her Voice

John Dehlin [01:34:31] And was there some boiling point or breaking point that made you write that op ed?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:34:36] Oh, yes. Sorry I didn't answer your question. Okay, so how did that come about? So, all right, so I listened to all this information. I'm grateful that you are out there sharing that with everyone. You, in my opinion, was very honest about your ups and downs. And when you know, you believe, you don't believe. You question. You know, you. You have flaws, like we all do. You make mistakes. You took the, you know, the whole Mormon story community a little bit too far. You know, people are following you and stuff. You recognize that it went wrong at some point. You recognize that, you know, maybe I shouldn't have taken it that far.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:35:16] And you try to rectify. You try to come back and see if you can make it work. You come with humility, saying, here I am. You know, I won't lie to you. I can't say that, you know, I know without a matter of a doubt that you know without the shadow of a doubt that the Book of Mormon is true or Joseph Smith, the prophet. But I still value what's in the religion. I still value the community, and I want to be a.

Guest [01:35:40] Of part.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:35:40] Part of it. And here they are saying, no, you can't. It's too late. You are out. You've done too much. You've. I don't know what they. They say that you've done. Like, why. Why you were. What was the big accusation that you had followers? Is that why?

John Dehlin [01:36:01] Apostasy.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:36:02] But apostasy for what? For bringing. For having people away. For leading people away. So, you know, people are free to choose who they're going to follow and to accuse you. I mean, you didn't make them follow you or believe what you said. Just like I'm not trying to convince anyone here to believe what I believe, to follow me. Like, I don't need a following.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:36:26] I don't. This is my journey. This is my spiritual journey. And if people resonate with that, then that's their thing. And not to say that, you know, because they're like, yeah, Juliana, thank you, you know, for what you're saying is bringing a following. I don't understand that because I'm not trying to create my own church or create my own movement here. I'm just saying how I feel and how I live it. So the fact that they just shun you when you are wanting to come back, because you were right at that point.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] I was active up through the.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:37:02] Until they say you cannot belong anymore. I'm like, you know what? I know I don't know a lot of things, but I know that's not what Christ would do. That I know if someone wants to belong, Christ is not going to say no. He's going to say, come, let us work through this. And so to me, no, I'm not going to agree. I'm not going to agree with that. And that was also the tipping point. Same with Kate Kelly, because it kind of happened at the same time now with that, it's. It's kind of a different thing. Like, I don't feel as strong, you know, Like, I don't have that need of having the priesthood or whatnot, but I do.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:37:40] I did try to understand where they were coming from, and I did look at the issues that they were bringing up. And it makes sense. If you look at what is it that they are wanting and talking about it. I don't want to expand on that. But, you know, it makes sense, you know, like. And yes, maybe not everyone, every woman should have the priesthood. But yes, it did exist in Joseph Smith's time. Why was it taken away? Do we have an answer to that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:38:10] So why could it serve us today? Well, your husband struggles a lot. Your kid is sick. Why can't you do anointing and a blessing on that child? What's wrong with that? Wanting to bless? You are in a village. There is only women there. There is no man to be found around. Well, there is no church. There is nothing that can be done without the presence of a man. And that's problematic. And, yes, it probably doesn't happen that much. So I'm just giving, like, a theoretical Example here. But a lot of the things that they are saying do make sense. And it's not like this crazy thing that, oh, you know, they just want to the priesthood and then, I don't know, this kind of weird ideas as to why they want.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:38:56] No, the way they went about it, I can't say that I fully endorse and agree. Having their own meetings and stuff. I mean, I have my reservation on that. But to me, this whole fiasco could have been avoided had the leaders said, come on, sisters, let us talk. What is it you want? You know, let us, you know, discuss with you. Because they're all faithful women who don't even question, like, you know, the, the truthfulness of the gospel, anything. They're like all valiant and they want to serve and they want to, you know, they don't even have issues with, except for this one thing. And they could have just said, let us talk.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:39:39] And maybe they did. I don't know. Did they have an audience with the general authorities or than women? Because maybe I'm not aware of that.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] They tried.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:39:48] They could have had an audience and they could have gone back and said, okay, let us pray. This is our job to ask God because he's our friend, right? We're so close to him. They could have just gone and prayed about it and even come back and say, you know what, sister, it's not the time. Can you please be patient with us and with God and just go on with, you know, how things are. But they didn't even do that. I don't think so. To me, it's like, you know, you are our leaders and if there are needs, even if it's like a small little minority, we are a body, aren't we?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:40:27] Like, we're like the body of Christ. If your toe hurt, you're going to look at your toe, at your pinky toe and fix it. You know, it's not. Because they're not like the brain, you know, and so they could have just avoided this whole fiasco. And so when this happened and you're excommunicated there, I'm like, you know what?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:40:46] Just, I can't endorse this. This is just political here. This is just institutional. And at that point, I separate my faith in God, Christ and the Holy Ghost from the institution. Because this for me, will not be touched. I choose to believe. This is my foundation. I choose to believe in God. I choose to believe in Christ. And we have a relationship. And I choose to believe in the Holy Ghost now the institution, gosh, I'VE got issues, you know, because if you're not doing what Christ would do. I want to follow Christ. I don't want to follow the prophet or the apostles if they're not following Christ, if they're not loving, if they're not understanding, if they're not, you know, doing those things that Christ did.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:41:40] Christ wasn't going around about judging people and telling you, you go, now you're not doing the right thing. You excommunicated. The only people he didn't like was the hypocrites. That's the only people he had issues with, the hypocrites. And to me, if I don't see you do what he did, I mean, look at Pope Francis, for heaven's sake, going about being Christ like. And I don't even care if it's pr, like, if he's trying to, like, get a good image, but at least he's doing the right thing, going on and apologizing for something that happened, like, centuries ago. You know, it's like, can we take heed?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:42:19] You know, I think we can learn from others. I don't think that we have it all and can't learn from others, you know, Sorry, I don't mean to sound angry here. I'm not, but it is a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] What I hear you saying is that you expect the church that claims to be led by Christ to act Christ.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:42:38] Like, absolutely. Just that. Because I feel that there is just so much judgment right now, so much judgment and judging, and we need to just. Just, you know, lay down the line and, you know, bring up. Just square everyone. And it's like an army more than a church to me. And I'm like, I am no soldier. Like, yes, maybe for Christ. But then to me, I understand that very differently. To me, it's social justice. And you look at who's hurting out there and you go and you. You help them. It's not about aligning to some, you know. No, I don't agree with that. So that's just me.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive, please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org audio and video for this podcast were provided by Richard Holdman.

Guest [01:43:43] You can be amazing. You can turn a phrase into a weapon or a drug. You can be the outcast to be the backlash of somebody's lack of love, or you can start speaking up Nothing's gonna hurt you the way the words do when they settle need your skin kept on the inside Sunlight Sometimes a shadow wins But I wonder what would happen if you say what you want to say and let the words fall out Honestly, I want to see what you want to say.

Part Two Introduction and Recap

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 556

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you.

Guest [00:00:19] You can be amazing. You can turn a phrase into a weapon or a drug. You can be the outcast to be the backlash of somebody's lack of.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Okay, so we're at part two of our interview with Juliana Viegas Haas. Fascinating first segment about her mother growing up in the Congo, about her growing up in Belgium with a single mother raising five children, about her years in the church in Belgium, her mission on Temple Square, some challenges she faced on her mission, and then marrying her husband at BYU and raising children in the church as she and her husband started to confront historical and doctrinal and cultural issues that started to become problematic. So that led her to the point where she felt moved in July of 2015 to write an article called an op ed article in the Salt Lake Tribune called what Do Progressive Mormons Want?

John Dehlin [00:01:32] A Dialogue About Change. And this is a really interesting and important article, and let's just go ahead and dive in. So first you, in the article, you sort of try and define progressive Mormonism. What does progressivism mean to you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:01:53] Well, you know, there isn't, I think, a definition of what progressive Mormon, like one, you know, definition that encompasses, you know, the thoughts of all progressive Mormons. Why? Because we are all at different stages. We all care more or less about different issues. But there are those issues that just surface more than others.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:02:16] And I think a lot of people don't understand that this op ed wasn't just me saying, you know what bothers me? I did do a survey in a couple of forums which have thousands of people in them and ask them, what is it that you would change if you could. And those 10 points that came up are the ones that people would mention the most. So I did my grids and I did how many of these and that. And there is a lot more than 10 points, by the way. But those 10 points were the ones that would surface the most. In fact, I think almost perfectly in the order I put them. So, meaning most.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] The first one is the most important.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:00] The first one was the most important.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Okay, now just to clarify, you define progressive Mormons as people who are less likely than traditional Mormons to believe in the obedience to authority over personal revelation, personal inspiration. So progressive Mormon is going to say, if my inspiration conflicts with the brethren, I'm more likely to go with my own. Okay. The LDS Church's unique restoration claims. Meaning that they're less likely to view the LDS Church as the one true

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:37] church, the one and only.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] But instead they're going to see it as what?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:41] That there is many ways to. To get to God or to get to achieve, you know, a place in the. In the kingdom where God is or, you know, whatever that is. We don't. Well, I should speak for myself because at this point. But there is not one only way to find God and to be with him. And we do not condemn. And I know the church doesn't either, but in the rhetoric we have, it does. You know, we have this way, just the way we enter, you know, the kingdom of God. But I mean, I believe Mother Teresa is already there and Gandhi is already there.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:23] Do I believe they have to become Mormons? No, because I believe they have applied the principles of righteousness, even Christ, like principles, regardless of, you know, if Jesus was important to them or no. They've lived the gospel and they deserve to be where God is. And so. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] So for you, is this the one true church or do you see this as the one and only true church?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:48] I do not.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:50] Not at this point. I used to.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Right. Is that hard to say? Like, when I ask you to say it yes or no? Is that difficult?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:57] No, because at this point, that's not what I believe. Does that mean I don't like the church and don't want to be a part of it? No. But this is my battle here. And I don't know where it'll end, where it will end. But my battle is it's okay for me to sit by someone who says, I know without the shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, that, you know, President Munson is a prophet of God.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:05:25] And I sit here and I say, well, I'm not so sure now today about these things. But you know what? I think there is still a lot of good. And I want to be a part because you are my family. This is where I grew up. I consider that the church raised me. And if they created this today, they created this because the Church raised me. My mother raised me, but the church raised me. I mean, if you hear my story from the beginning, I am front row.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:05:52] It's not like I went off and went inactive and, you know, sinning and doing this and that or trying to justify sins. I have broken no commandments and you know, the reason why I question today. And I say the things I say is because of the information I received from my church. A little bit too late in my opinion.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:06:15] So they need to handle me. They don't need to kick me out. I mean, if they want to do it, they can. But that's not what I'm seeking here. What I'm seeking is a community where we can have our own spiritual journey and we can speak about it. Because what are we afraid of? I mean, I'm not telling lies. I'm speaking the truth. I'm speaking my truth and there is nothing to fear. Especially if you're so sure of what you believe, then why are you fearing what I have to say?

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Right, okay. Three is literal interpretations of scripture. Yeah. So I mean, does that tie in for you to like the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham?

Navigating Doubt While Staying in the Church

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:05] Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, they came up with it, not me, that it wasn't what it was, that what they said it was. I mean, so how can I now believe that, you know, the Book of Mormon is exactly what they say it is?

John Dehlin [00:07:19] So what's the Book of Mormon to you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:21] What to me, I still find value in it. I'm not going to dismiss it because it's not historically, you know, accurate or this or that. I still think Joseph Smith was inspired to write it. I still find a lot of good things. I still believe it can bring us closer to Christ and teach us good principles and can help people be better. Just don't ask of me to say that it is the most correct book on the earth because what about an

John Dehlin [00:07:50] ancient record of American people?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:52] I don't know about that. Like, and I just, you know, I'm going to just let me have my. I'm on this journey, right? And it's, there's just too much evidence to me that it didn't happen. Like the lovely, flawless story I've been told all along. It did not happen like that. Which leads me to question a lot of things. Now, do I want to take everything away and all the good things I gained from it away? No, I'm not going to deny all the good it's brought into my life. But that doesn't mean, you know, it is 100% historical and, you know. No.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] What about the dark skinned narrative in the Book of Mormon? Did that ever bother you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:08:39] Yes, but at the same time I think I tried to justify, you know, in my head because I don't believe any of that. I don't know if I just dismiss it or, you know, I just take the verses that are beneficial to Me and maybe ignore the ones that aren't. And that's, to me, it's just kind of silly.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] So you've never had this moment of rage screaming at the Book of Mormon?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:04] I always found it a little offensive. Absolutely. But I'm like, you know what? I'm just not going to dwell on that. Right, right, yeah, but it is offensive.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] Okay, but you've never allowed it to really make you angry, scream at the pages.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:17] No, because I don't have time for this.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Okay, okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:20] It's a waste of time.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] And so you progressive Mormons interpret the scriptures instead of literally. What?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:09:29] It's not about interpreting the scriptures. I think this point has more to do with historicity. Like, don't demand of us to, like, you know, say it's like, so, like totally historical. And, you know, they've been there. Like, don't demand, just be okay if all we do is accept. Or even some may not, like, I don't know what, you know, again, there is, there is a spectrum in how people view things and interpret things. And to me, just accept the fact that not everyone is going to be like, this is, you know, solid historical. Okay, except that. And we can live together thinking differently about these things.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] And what I'm guessing you also mean by that is that you can derive value, moral value, from the scriptures, stories, parables, lessons for life, whether or not they're historical.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:23] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:24] Absolutely.

Guest [00:10:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Okay. Strict traditional observances is a fourth description of progressive Mormons. So you mentioned Sabbath observance, modesty, tattoos, word of wisdom. Now that's interesting because I don't sense that you're someone who's been out trying to break the word of wisdom or the law of chastity. My guess is you probably, as your family, respected the Sabbath, so why are you mentioning those?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:50] Well, again, this is not about me. This is about the community. Okay, so, yes, I have my opinion on it. But then, yeah, I mean, people will have to ask other progressive Mormons, what is it that how they interpret it. As far as I'm concerned, the way I see it is more of a don't judge, you know, do your thing. And it's not like I want to have tattoos and go and drink on the Sabbath. And, you know, it's not like I want to encourage people to break the Sabbath. That's not the point here. The point is if someone feels like all they can take today is one hour church and then they're going to go and have fun with their family because it's their family days, you don't go and judge them because they're not sitting there all three hours.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:35] You do your thing, and if you want to sit there three hours and do, you know, that's what you do. But what your neighbor is doing is none of your business. And you know what? Live your gospel. Live the gospel and don't judge simply. And yes, if the guy has a tattoo, give him the calling. Doesn't matter, you know, or if he has a beard, give him a calling. You know, don't judge. Like, and I'm talking to the leadership here, don't judge people because of their appearance or because they don't live the gospel like you live it.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] But why not send a message to members? Live the gospel with exact obedience. You will be blessed. Live the law of chastity, live the word of wisdom, obey the Sabbath day, keep it holy. That will bring you the most amount of joy in your life. Like, why not have that message?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:12:23] I think the brethren are doing and saying that, which is fine, and I don't disregard that. But I think the point here is if someone has. I mean, if someone has in their journey the feeling that all they can take is sacrament and then they want to go and meditate in the woods, then they do that and that's it. Like, don't make a big fuss about it, you know, don't call them sinners because that's to them how they draw nearer to God, you know?

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Do you think it's best if everybody obeys literally?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:01] I am not gonna say what people have to do because I believe we all have to decide what we want to do and what is best for us. And I think everyone should just allow each other to be on their journey and live their journey without trying to impose your journey on your neighbors. You do your thing and then don't worry. Okay, that's. Well, that's me. And maybe other people think differently and just would like to just, I don't know, have parties at church. I don't know. But that's not my thing.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Okay, so the fifth sort of description of a progressive Mormon is they believe less in the unquestioned authority of the leaders of the LDS Church than an orthodox member.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] So it's respecting the leaders less.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:51] No, it means that we do not. Well, we. I don't like to speak for we because I prefer to speak for myself. And then people can just comment and say what they think. Or for me, it's. I've. I used to think it's okay to think once the prophet has spoken the thinking is done. But I disagree with that statement today.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:14:14] Sure, the prophet may be right, but I'm going to pray about it. If my answer is different, I'm going to go with my answer because I put my relationship with God in Christ before my relationship with the prophet, and I will align with him before I align with the prophet.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:14:39] So that's. Yes. And personal revelation, the light of Christ, I believe in those things, and I will follow that. Have the prophets been wrong in the past? Yes, many times. So if I feel like that's not how I feel, the way they feel. If I pray, I mean, if I.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:14:58] If I pray about things and it happens or it aligns with what the prophet says, then great. But if it doesn't, I am going to follow what I feel. And I used to just try to make myself fit into what is acceptable or what the prophet thinks. I used to always make myself do that. But today I don't anymore because I do not want to live with those internal conflicts. And I truly believe that I'm trying to follow Christ and follow God and, you know, and find truth. So I will follow that.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] So are there areas, are there issues where you are willing to say you openly disagree with the prophet?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:15:49] Well, yeah. Like the gay issues? I guess. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] What about it?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:15:53] That I believe they should be fully included. I mean, I think that's one of the points there.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] But you don't think that a man marrying a man and being sexually intimate violates the law of chastity?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:09] I don't anymore. Not if they're married.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah. Okay. Any other things or is that any other really important things to you where you.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:19] I think that's one doctrinal thing. That's one big doctrinal thing. I mean, the other things, of course, I don't know if it's doctrinal to like, literally believe everything, but that would be one. But yes, doctrinally, I don't know. You can tell me if there's other doctrinal things in the list.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Okay, so that's. So that's how you define a progressive Mormon. And you have, and you have sort of through these Internet forums, gathered as much information you could to try and represent changes that you feel like the church should consider. Is that right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:58] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] And so from that list, you put Together the top 10 list of changes that, you know, you hope that progressives hope the LDS Church would make. Is that right? Sure. Okay. So we can go through. We can go through them.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:16] No, I mean, we know it's not going to be overnight. Or, you know, but there is hope, you know, there is hope for change and betterment.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] Sure. All right, well, let's just. Let's go through the 10, shall we?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:28] Okay.

Guest [00:17:29] All right.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:29] That's what we were doing.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Yeah. No, those were just descriptions of progressive margins more. So now we're gonna go through the top 10. All right. All right. Top 10 changes. You want these things too, right? It's not just the people.

What Progressive Mormons Want from the Church

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:17:43] Yes. I mean, some are more or less important to me, and I'll say it as we go through them, but.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay. Okay. So number one is increased gender equality. What do you want to see? What do you think?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:18:00] Just women being heard more. Because I don't speak from personal experience here, because I feel like I have been heard. I've been, you know, apart. Like, I haven't felt, you know, put aside or anything like that. But I have seen situations from close friends, family, where there is an obvious abuse of power.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:18:21] And from listening to other people in those forums, it seems like it's happening a lot. Where there's a situation with a husband and wife, and the wife needs to align to the priesthood authority in the home. And that I've seen, like, firsthand several times.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:18:45] Yes. Or like just councils that are really not inspired. Like bishop telling people they should divorce or stay together, when really it isn't what should be happening because of abuse or because of whatever. So I, like, I can't remember who I spoke to. I spoke to a friend yesterday who was telling me how she really appreciated the fact that her bishop would, you know, if they had a situation like that, would transfer to a professional, would tell them, here's a name, here's a person. You can see that's what they do, and recognize that it is beyond his capability to do something that people go, you know, four or five or more years in school to do.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:19:32] And to me, that's so important. So I think the church is moving forward with visibility of women, but just for women to be heard, you know, and just constantly I hear things about, you know. Well, I didn't really feel like this was a calling for me because obviously he didn't look at my situation. But yet you look. You feel so guilty because your bishop asked you to do this calling, yet it's so conflicting with the situation. But they're not being heard because they don't have the authority to decide what is or what is not inspired.

Women, Priesthood, and Being Heard

John Dehlin [00:20:08] So, you know, what about women receiving the priesthood?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:20:12] Women receiving the priesthood? To me, it's not something that I seek, but, like, we were talking about earlier, I can understand why they would want it. I think we talked about it a little before because of those situations that can occur where, you know, a baby is sick or, you know, there is no man around or just wanting that privilege to be close to God. And to me, it doesn't take away the. It doesn't make us like take away from the man. I mean, the fact that if women were to have the priesthood, it doesn't take away the man's priesthood. I mean, you still do and have what you have.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:20:49] It doesn't take away anything from. From you. So I don't see why it's so, you know. And again, they did have it or partially at the beginning of the church and also in the temple, we know that there is, you know, priesthood from women in there. So I don't see how. And again, it may be a timing thing where.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:10] But I don't know that they even consider it. Like sometimes it's like it's a closed chapter. Then what about, you know, article of Faith 9, where we're waiting for. And not that it has to be this, but if we have that mentality of this is it, we are it, the church is the way it should be and nothing's gonna change and it's been like that forever, which hasn't. Then, yeah, we're not gonna get anything of these important truth that needs to be revealed.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] So what about just the messages that young. The girls and young women receive of empowerment or about the sexualization of their bodies or whatever? Any concerns about.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:53] Yes, I mean, we have to be careful, you know, as a community to just not send the wrong messages and not overdo it. You know, just a simple example. Like we've lived in Switzerland where it's kind of like very different there. People just mind their own business even at church. Like they're just happy to be with each other. It doesn't matter so much if you think differently. I mean, even after having like my huge faith crisis and I went inactive for three months and then I came back and my bishop just, you know, open arms, you know, was wondering why I came back so soon.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:28] He was surprised. And I'm like, because this community is just awesome. You guys are awesome. And I'm fine being among you, even if I struggle. But then we go. Then we come to Texas and you know, it's going okay, but as soon as we come, you know, my. It's super hot. My daughter, who's 8 years old, is wearing a strap dress and then one of the little Girls around her says, oh, you are immodest. I mean, what is that? She's 8 years old and you know, and a peer is already judging her and that's wrong. And it's not that little girl's fault. She's taught that way, right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:11] And to me, that's not normal like that. So young we were teaching our kids to judge, you know, it's not like she was walking, walking around a bikini or something. Even then she's an 8 year old. And that to me is just sending the wrong message, you know, to our children.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] And what about a woman wearing a tank top?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:32] Or you know what, it doesn't bother me. It's the same thing as what do my neighbor do on Sunday? You worry about you and you do what you need to do and you let them decide what they feel is right for them. And you just love.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:51] That's all, you just love. You don't judge. It's not our place. It's not our place. If they want to decide that, oh, I'm going to change, I don't feel so comfortable like this, then they'll do it. But if not, you welcome them, you embrace them, you're there for them and you just don't judge. And I think we have such a hard time with that. We have a hard time.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:12] And it's like people these days put more emphasis on laying down the law and judging others than just loving shutting up and understanding. Because they are. So when I see they. I'm thinking of all my friends preaching to me right now as if I don't understand the gospel. And you know, after all these years, that's all I did.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:36] But they're not listening. I mean, except for the people who are, who want to. Very few people have asked, why, why, why do you think like that? Why? What happened? They don't, they're like, and the gospel is like this and you should read that scriptures and read that talk and pray and go to temple and do this and do that and do that. And yet they won't try to really understand where you're coming from.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:08] And that's what we need to do, is just listen. Just. I know I talk a lot, but it's like, but I've done my homework, I've listened. And that's what caused my change of heart. You know, listening to people's stories, listening where they're coming from. Because then you can actually maybe make a better judgment on where is it they're coming from instead of imposing. This is how it should be. Don't talk to me. Just follow the rules. You know, follow, follow, follow. Don't talk. You know, that doesn't work.

Apologizing for Racist and Anti-LGBT Policies

John Dehlin [00:25:41] Okay, so point two is, is apologize for the racist past and mistreatment of LGBT members. Yes, talk about that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:52] I think it would be appropriate. I mean, regarding to the racist past. I mean, all the dirt is out. Whatever has been said. I mean, it's pretty public now, and I think it would really help the church if they came out and just apologized, just, you know, for the hurt that it caused, that the, you know, disavowing is not as powerful as apologizing for the hurt, you know, we feel with you. We know it hurts, or maybe they don't know. But just even mentioning it would make a difference, in my opinion. And I think people would stop bringing it to the table if they did, and maybe not, but I think it would. It would soothe a lot of hearts.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] So what about the argument that just because Brigham Young said this or whoever said that, that was their opinion, Current church leaders can't apologize for what Brigham Young said.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:26:52] Yes, they can, because they represent the institution. And it's in the name of the institution that you apologize. That we're sorry that the institution carried on with thoughts and doctrines according to those who, you know, who came up with them. Yes, I think it would be appropriate. I mean, like I mentioned earlier, Pope Francis apologized for the killings and the mistreatment of, you know, the indigenous people. And that happened hundreds of years ago. There is a place for that, and I think worldwide, that was felt, you know, it was recognized, that he really feels for the people, and that is a grand act. I think, for someone who is a man of God, you know, if they are men of God, it's appropriate to be humble and to do that.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] Recently, Elder Donald H. Oaks made the comment, we neither seek apologies nor do we give apologies. What do you think about that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:28:00] I think it's pretty terrible that he said that. I think it's pretty terrible because we're supposed to follow them, right? They're supposed to be our exemplars, our leaders. And if they say that, what keeps us from saying the same thing? We do not seek. I do not seek or give apology. I am following on your footstep.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] But he says the word apology doesn't appear in the scriptures.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:28:30] You know, mourn with those who mourn. That is in the Scriptures. And to me, apologizing, that's what it would do. You mourn with those who mourn.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] I'm guessing that the reason why he said that is because what differentiates our church from all the other churches is that we're supposed to have our leaders speaking directly with God. So, yeah, since the Pope, according to a believing Mormon, since the Pope's not really talking to God, Catholic Church makes mistakes. Of course the Pope can apologize because God's not leading him anyway. In our case, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were led by God and all the prophets from then until now. And so I just can't imagine that they're not feeling just simply that if they start apologizing for what past prophets say, then all the members will go, oh, well, if we're apologizing, that means they must have said stuff that was wrong.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] And so that means that now the prophets may say things that are wrong. And so we don't have to follow the prophets. Can't you see why they wouldn't want to apologize?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:38] Absolutely. Absolutely. It may or may not undermine mind the authority, but that. That's what it is. What do you want me to say?

Guest [00:29:48] It.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:48] It doesn't take away the fact that when a wrong has been done, the wrong is recognized. I mean, as a missionary, I taught, if you do something wrong, you. There's like the ABC steps. You admit, be sorry. Correct. Do it no more. And then, well, aren't we all supposed to do that? Or is it certain people do it, but we don't because we're leaders. And I don't believe that the gospel is different for them than it is for the members. I think it's the same for everyone.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] So, again, we talked about this, but as far as LGBT members go, what do you think the church has to apologize?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:30:35] I mean, you've heard the stories. I mean, you've talked to them. You've talked to the people who were at BYU while they were trying to transform them and change them. People have been damaged and that. And even today, the things that are said about them that, you know, it is a choice and is their burden for life. I mean, I believe in a loving God who wants his children to be happy. And I do not believe that being a homosexual is a mistake. I think God does not make mistake. And I think God wants all of his children to be a part of his gospel.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:18] And yes, they deserve it, and they deserve what we have. They didn't sign up to be celibate their whole life. I don't. You know, some of them may, but I don't think most of them signed up to be celibate their whole life. And how do you reconcile that? So I wouldn't I wouldn't want that for myself. I wouldn't impose it on someone else.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] And we talked about this before. Do you think that the church should apologize for Proposition 8?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] And for fighting against same sex marriage?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:49] Absolutely. When I see members of our church standing side by side, haters carrying, you know, signs saying, you know, kill them or, you know, they're the devil, or I mean, hurtful and evil things about, about gay people, and we are standing by that. I mean, how Christlike is that? How Christlike is that it all? For me, it all boils down to what, what would Christ do? And is this Christ? Like, if the answer is no, then I will not follow. It's as simple as that.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] But the law of chastity says that sexual relations should only happen between a man and a woman. And that's revelation. Right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:32] I, you know, I don't know where that's written. I mean, yes, God created a man and a woman, but I don't know if there is a scripture that actually says that.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Is there just the temple?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:45] I think no, but what about the canons?

John Dehlin [00:32:48] I mean, there's some scriptures in the Old Testament that say that homosexuality is evil.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:54] Yes, but again, it also says we shouldn't eat shrimp or shellfish or, you know, stuff like that. So do we pick and choose what we like, what we don't, or. I don't know. I really do try to go by how I feel, you know, and really not just how I feel, but trying to put myself in their shoes. How would I like to be treated if this was me, you know, or my child? Like, one of them may come out to me one day and say, mom, I'm gay. You know, what do I want for my child? I want happiness. And, you know, and I will do anything that's in my power for that child to be happy. I am not going to tell my child, endure to the end. And in the other life you will be happy because no, we came here to find joy.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] Yeah, but you see how this challenges. You know, they say they're prophets and Spencer Kimball and others have said homosexuality is wrong. And you're basically saying that they're wrong.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:56] Well, we evolve. You know, the church has evolved, humanity has evolved. And I. And this is where maybe orthodox and unorthodox or progressive or liberal Mormons. Stan is like, we have no problem with big changes. I think the orthodox members have problems with big changes and are not ready for it because things have to be just so. But if change needed to happen, it's okay with us. And it doesn't make the prophet less of a prophet. It doesn't make the church more or less true.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:30] Things are evolving and they're evolving with us. If we're not ready to evolve, then it's the status quo. And if people are happy with the status quo, which I believe some are, then things remain the same. But there is place, there is room for evolvement, for change. I mean, you see it in the world, you see it in your life. And this is just how life is. You evolve, you become greater, you become more enlightened. You don't just stay in that same, you know, mind frame that you've always been in. Where's the progression?

John Dehlin [00:35:04] Point three is accept married gay couples at all levels. All levels includes temple. Temple ceremony.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:35:11] Yep. I know that that would require categoric changes, but like I said, for me, change isn't an issue. Like, it's. I mean, when we're ready, the change will come, but we're not, I guess. But I don't have a problem with that. I know that many do and doctrines have changed. I mean, you know, doctrines have changed and why not this one? Was it more important than polygamy, Blacks in the priesthood, you know, whatever Adam's God theory, doctrines have changed and members need to understand that. That it's not like, yeah, and truth is truth and maybe truth doesn't change, but then we're still on that road. I don't believe we have all the truth and that all is revealed to us.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] But the plan of salvation, you know, the idea is that you become husband and wife in heaven and then you procreate spirit children and become mother and father God to your own.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:12] I think that there is a lot of things that are. That are kind of. Oh, how do you say, we don't know. I think there's a lot of things that, you know, we just don't know what's going to happen. It's going to work out somehow. But it's speculation, you know, to come up with all these things that are going to happen in heaven, it's speculation.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] Some say it's revelation.

Guest [00:36:39] Well,

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:41] again, revelation can change. And to me that makes it a speculation. I do hope for heaven. I do hope for a place, you know, that's wonderful and to be back with God, with my loved ones. But I don't think it's just this. Such a narrow. And yes, we can talk about a narrow door. The scriptures talk about a narrow door, but I don't think the narrow door consists in all these administrative things that you have to do. I think the narrow door is, how much did you love. How much did you practice the gospel really? Not just check your box and have the appearance of being a Christlike person, but how much did you really love?

Transparency, Polygamy, and Church History

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:21] How much did you really help that outcast out there? Did you go out to that homeless? Did you go out to those people who had no friends? I mean, that's the narrow door. And right now I really feel like in the church, and maybe I'm generalizing because I know a lot of people who do a lot of good things. So I don't want to just paint the church as being like, this bad place, because it isn't, and that's why I'm still here. But I feel like there is so much emphasis on follow the rules. You know, straighten up and line up and line up. It's like, what about the love? Doesn't the scripture say, in the end, what will count is charity? You know, that's the last word.

Guest [00:37:59] So.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:38:00] So that's the direction I'm going towards.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Number four. Permit members to openly question the authority, teachings, and decisions of LDS Church leadership. That sounds like chaos. Sounds like insubordination.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:38:20] No, if you have a. If something is troubling, it shouldn't be a sin to say, hey, what's this about? And why, you know, ask questions and, you know, discuss if needs be.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] But here's what. Here's what seems like, you know, I don't want to say you're not understanding, but I'm playing the role. I'm obviously playing the role.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:38:47] I'm disregarding. No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] I'm just.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:38:49] Okay, so chosen to do that job.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] From the orthodox perspective, it sounds like, what do the brethren have if it's not their authority and their relationship with God? And if we allow the members to just openly question authority and the decisions and the teachings, then we're like Protestants or Lutherans or Presbyterians or Episcopalians. It's just like, yeah, the prophet talks, but we may or may not agree, and, you know, we'll do what we want at the end of the day. And I just don't know that that's not Mormonism.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:29] I don't think so. I think that, sure, the structure is important, needs to be there because we need some order, some organization. But considering, like, for example, that guy who stood up at General Conference. Conference and said, I oppose several.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] Several people. Yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:48] Yeah, those people who said, what happened with that? Did they actually try to find out what was the issue? Or do you know, did anyone try

John Dehlin [00:39:56] to find out or they were referred to their local bishops and stake presidents.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:40:00] And then what?

John Dehlin [00:40:02] So they, some of them chose to go tell their bishops and stake presidents what the issues were and then what.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:40:09] What happens?

John Dehlin [00:40:10] That's about it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:40:12] But what are the issues and what is it that. And that's the thing is, do the general authorities know or care about what is it these people wanted? Because I look at it like, yes, I can go to my bishop and discuss all these things, discuss all my issues. He just doesn't have the last word. He's not going to make any changes. He's not going to go and pray about it for things to change. The prophet, the apostles, that's their job. They go, they take the issue, they pray, and they come back with an answer. To me, that's how it works. And sometimes referring to your local leadership, okay, for certain things, but when it's big things regarding the entire church, they just have no power to make any change.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:00] And it's not just about having a discussion, discussion here and talking for hours and making you feel better. We're looking at, how can we make this different here?

John Dehlin [00:41:08] I can hear Elder Oaks saying something to the effect of we're going about the business of feeding them spiritually, of providing programs that strengthen the families and strengthen the individuals. If we're spending all this time listening to the liberals complain and disagree and make suggestions, we can't run the church effectively that way.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:34] Well, maybe for a while, but when it's a significant enough amount of people who have these discomfort, it is important to look at it. It's important. Like I was talking about, if your toe hurts, you look at your toe and you fix your toe. I mean, you just don't let it rot or you just choose to amputate it just because then, you know, we're done with it, which I feel like excommunication. That's what it is. You just amputate. You keep amputating. You know, this is not working. Well, let's just amputate. Let's just cut him off instead of trying to heal, trying to see what the problem is and come up with a solution. That's.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] I mean, but let's say you've got a hundred sheep.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] And 99 of them are all together. And you're trying to take care of them. How do you leave the 99 to go take care of the ones like you risked the 99.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:23] Jesus did it. Right. Isn't that the parable that he cared about, the one? And we also claim that as a Church. I think that we care about the one, that God knows us one by one and by name. And we really emphasize that gospel doctrine that God cares about the individual and will spend time with the individual and he will care about the one. So why don't we.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] But what if the wolves get some of the other sheep while you're looking after the one?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:56] Well, ask Jesus, he's the one who said it that way.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Number five, provide financial transparency in the youths of tithe.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:43:08] Yes, I mean, that to me is somewhat of an issue, but I think it's bigger issue for, you know, the people who mention it. But I can see where they're coming from with that. You know, there's just a lot of things going on and you know, that feeling. I mean, and I think it goes kind of along with just all the money poured into temples instead of maybe, you know, feeding the poor, the needy, organizations that might need. And I know the church does a lot. I'm not trying to say they don't do anything. I know they do a lot in terms of charity and, you know, trying to, you know, help the poor and needy.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:43:38] But couldn't more be done? That's the question. Couldn't more be done if you cut off here, if you don't have that beautiful thousands of dollars worth chandelier in a temple, but rather you help a grassroots organization that's trying to, you know, build up a village, help people, be sufficient? I mean, couldn't we cut off in some places to actually take care of the people?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:44:03] And that's, you know, the thought here. And also, I mean, there is just, and I think that goes with the temple, but just we know there is a lot going on. We know the church is ultra wealthy. We know that there's a lot of investment here and there.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:44:18] And I guess we're supposed to just trust completely that they're always making the right decisions. I mean, just like this land in Florida that's going to be sold and millions of dollars going to pour in into the church and you know, what, what is going, what's happening? I mean, some, I mean, I know most people probably don't care and I don't, to be honest, like I don't care that much as, as much as I see, you know, they're doing the, the charitable things by, you know, trying to help the poor and the needy, just like the scriptures say. But there is something to be said about, you know, can we know what you're going to do with those millions of dollars and how are you going to invest it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:44:56] And where is it going? I mean isn't it tithing money the end that kind of feeds the church which is the members money. So if you were a company which the church functions a lot like a company, the books are open, right? If your company, like your shareholders are seeing what's happening and why is it hidden? You know, why do we need to just trust that everything is done properly? I think there's.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:45:24] Are they things that they're trying to hide or you know, because if not then why is it not just disclosed? That's just the question that you know, goes on here.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] Number six, address the mistakes of polygamy and de canonize doctrine and Covenants 132.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:45:42] That's a big one. Well yeah, the decanonizing. I don't know how that would or could happen. I mean again this is not just my opinions. This is like a bunch of people thinking, you know, this is the problem

John Dehlin [00:45:56] with this one is it's saying that Joseph Smith himself not only made a mistake, but made a really, really big one. Because I mean if any of us imagines the prophet asking to marry and have sex with one of our teenage daughters or one of our wives, that's kind of really scary and creepy and Warren Jeff's territory. But I guess if God's making you do it, then it's okay. But if you're saying that Joseph and Brigham and everyone else were not being led by God when it comes to polygamy, then you're basically this basically accuses them of doing some really awful, terrible, horrendous things that would get you put in jail in today's society. And that now we're talking scripture. Talking like canonized scripture that's supposed to be sacred God's word. You're saying de canonized scripture. That's basically allowing Mormons to say what else in the scriptures can I throw away? Like that's pretty major.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:47:05] It is pretty major. But I think the real issue here is are we or are we not polygamists? And let's be honest and clear about it because if we are, then let's just say it, we are. It may not happen here, but in heaven polygamy is, which I've heard before also that in heaven that it's going to happen. But then why do we say we're not if we believe that eventually it will happen? I mean there's just this double standard here that makes, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] Well they say we're not right now. And who Knows what will happen in the hereafter.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:47:46] It's just unclear. They just need to clarify. And if we're not, then that needs to go away. But if we are, then let's stop saying we're not. I mean, either we are or we are not polygamists. So help us out here, because I'm opening my scriptures and I'm reading about these virgins and that. It's a. It's an okay thing to give a virgin and this and that. And then. And then you learn that he marries like married people and whatnot. So it doesn't even go with what he was practicing. And what. What's written is contradictory. And here we are where this has nothing to do with me. And then. But later, I mean, it's just so confusing. So confusing that. That whole, you know, 132, that whole polygamy, those verses are just so confusing.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] What about the argument when they said virgin, they meant wife?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:48:43] That is playing with words. That is playing with words. And I don't. For me, that doesn't go. I mean, the truth for me is clear. Truth doesn't have to be explained with volumes. Truth speaks for itself. And so once you start having to justify so much, there is problems. I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] Okay, what about the argument that there's more righteous women in heaven than men, so you have to have polygamy. Have polygamy.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:49:23] Oh, my word.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] To deal with all the righteous women?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:49:26] Well, that's the same fake argument that there weren't enough men for the women and that they needed to take care of them. That's the story I grew up with. That was the reason for polygamy was the men were out of war. They were killed. There was just, you know, overload of women. But that's not the real reason for polygamy. We know that today. I mean, we know that. So to me, that's also some kind of explanation that, you know, what do we know? Do we know? Well, how do we know? There was too many women who. Who went and, you know, this, did this. That I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] If the church brought back polygamy, would you do it?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:01] He fought, brought it back.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] The church brought it back and said, okay, we're polygamists.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:05] Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] No. You're not. Not a fan.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:09] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] Okay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:10] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] How about polyandry? Would you like that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:13] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] No. Two husbands, none of them.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:16] No.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Double income?

Guest [00:50:18] No. What?

John Dehlin [00:50:22] You want to help out with the kids?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:23] Nope. No, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] I think everyone should have A wife. You should have a wife to take care of you just.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:28] No, that's okay. No, I'll just take the night.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] It's not working. I'm just. I'm just joking, everybody. I'm just being a little silly. Don't want to get too heavy. All right. Number seven. Teach the truth about troubling facts of Church history specifically surrounding Joseph Smith.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:47] Yes. I mean, that's a heavy one, too.

John Dehlin [00:50:49] Dig up the dirt, basically.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:50:50] Yeah, that's a heavy one, too. But I think they're getting there. You know, I think they're trying with the hat and the stone and the, you know, the versions of the different versions of the first vision. I mean, I think they're trying and. Yeah, let's just be open about this.

John Dehlin [00:51:07] And someone say they're doing this now.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] Like with the essays. We can just check that one off.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] Do you agree?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:18] Which one?

John Dehlin [00:51:19] That the Church is now totally teaching the truth and the troubling facts and so we can check that one off.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:25] The Church needs to do more than that because quite frankly, my. I think it was my bishop. I mean, some. Some of the leaders I had, at least in Switzerland, didn't know about it. And I've heard many didn't know about what about the essays that they didn't. That even existed.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:43] And I think it's a. I understand their position where they don't want to just flaunt it because they don't want to rock the boat too much. You know, they want the people who want to know to go and find it, but the people who don't care to don't find it. But to me, it's not helping much because these people may find out later and just go through the same thing, you know, we are going through today of having all these issues so come out clean, have it presented just like you did with the proclamation or whatever, like the new release, press release about same sex marriage and where the Church stands.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:52:21] You know, that was very official. Every bishop talk about it, discuss, do the same thing with the essays. I know it's difficult, but it has to be done. Better just deal with it now than, you know, trickling people leaving because they're like, oh, you know, we haven't discussed this. And I don't know what, you know, what they think about it. I don't know. It's a difficult one. It's a difficult one.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] What about milk before meat? There's just a bunch of people that are. It's going to hurt their testimonies. So you don't you don't give a baby meat. You give a baby milk and you give an adult meat. And you. Same with these essays. You don't share the tough stuff with people who aren't ready to read them yet.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:53:05] Then have a gospel class available for the people who want to know, the people who want to be informed and make decisions upon informed with the facts. I feel like the decisions I made all throughout were made with just half the information. Right. All these decisions which weren't bad. I mean, again, it's not like I had a bad life or anything like that. But don't be surprised if today I think this way, because I have all the information. Not all of them, but more of the information.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:53:42] I felt like this because this was my primary, you know, fed information that I kept all along and was fine with that. But now I have more information. Therefore, my decisions are based upon a wider, broader, you know, set of information.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:00] So, sure, some people really don't want to know. They don't care. They don't want to know. They're fine, which is okay. But have a Sunday school class or a class for people who struggle and want to discuss these things to make sense of it. And I think that's what you were doing, actually, that you were our class with the Mormon stories and the podcast. Like, you were the class that people like us need in order to understand our faith with, while being objective, you know, while you looking at it in an objective way as well. So punishing you for doing that is just not.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] We're getting to that one.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:40] Great.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Speak openly of Heavenly Mother. What about the argument that she's too sacred? Well, we don't want people using her name in vain.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:51] Isn't God also too sacred? I mean, we don't want to use God to use God names in vain, too. That one, to me is not so important. But if someone stood up and prayed and said, dear Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, it's okay. Like, and I don't know that the church says we can do that. Like, I've never heard.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Yeah, you can't just. Because when Jesus prayed, he said our Father, which are in heaven.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:17] Okay. But I mean, just don't be shocked, you know, if someone feels like they need to address also their mother in heaven. I mean, I don't think there's nothing wrong with that. But, I mean, that's, you know, that's not a big issue of mine. But I wouldn't be shocked if people wanted to address her as well as, you know, the Father or just her

John Dehlin [00:55:37] I've heard one of the reasons we don't talk about heavenly mothers because there may be multiple mothers and so we don't know their names or which one to talk to.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:45] Again, that's all speculation. We just, we don't know this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Okay, well, do we know there's a mother?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:52] I don't know. Do we know there's a God? I mean, some people have faith in it. I think it makes sense to me. It makes sense that there would be a mother. I mean, we're the image of, you know, the divine and you know.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Well, then she should have come to Joseph Smith.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:12] Sure,

John Dehlin [00:56:14] I'm just kidding. I'm kidding again. Okay, number nine, use tithes and offerings more to help the poor and needy and less on capital projects like temples, churches, commercial buildings all add malls and real estate developments. So more helping the poor and needy.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:34] Yeah, I mean we talked about it, but I mean, you know, if I don't know all this stuff we accumulate, you know, I know the church needs to be taken care of and needs to be self sufficient and independent and we're just growing all this wealth, which is a good thing. But like, are we prioritizing in the right way? And this is where I think it goes hand in hand with the disclosure of what is being done with dizing. Because I think a lot of us in the progressive liberal Mormon side sometimes have the feeling that we are not doing enough in terms of what Jesus asked to feed the hungry. We were doing some, but couldn't we do more? And why is it that we don't? And so GA's, I've heard the reason

John Dehlin [00:57:22] for that is if you give poor money. This isn't me, but I've heard this rationale that if you give the poor the money, they'll buy alcohol or drugs or they'll waste it. But if you focus on church programs, then you give people an infrastructure, teachings, a community that really helps them progress. And so the best way to invest the money is in church stuff.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:57:47] To bring people in the church to

John Dehlin [00:57:49] like really transform people's lives versus throw money at them that they may waste or misuse or spend on drugs.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:57:56] I don't think that's what we're talking about, to just like throw away money but just be a part of more, you know, grassroots projects or building communities, you know, building schools, building, you know, providing more medication where it's needed. I mean there's tons of things. It's not about just throwing people money and telling them, you know, go do what you want with It. But can we not be more involved in alleviating poverty in the world, alleviating hunger in the world? I mean, there's just so much going on as far as social needs. I mean, even in Utah, like we were talking earlier, those people, refugee voice FOR the flds.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:36] Like, I, I personally don't understand why the church doesn't have like a structure in place to help these people who are our brothers and sister. Who are you guys family here in Utah? Utahn sits your family, whether you like it or not, they're your cousins.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:58:53] So that I don't understand, like, because we are. The church is wealthy. The church could, and I know there is some legal implications where it may get dirty, but then maybe help more the people who are doing it, because there are already people, you know, good people doing that on their own, trying to help, then just help these people so that they can help more. You know, I mean, there is just, there's plenty, there's plenty out there to be involved with.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:59:22] And again, I know the church does a lot and I, and I'm glad it does because that's what, what Christchurch should do is, you know, make this world a better place and, you know, be involved in humanitarian. But I do have, I'm skeptical as to can't we do more? You know, and why aren't we. And if there is a reason, then explain. You know, ultimately the money comes from the members and so without that there's no church. And maybe that's why, you know, they're just accumulating all these wealth in case nobody pays anymore and then they just, I don't know, I'm just going off here.

The Case for Open Dialogue and Reform

John Dehlin [00:59:59] But okay, number 10, stop excommunicating people for openly questioning or expressing doubts.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:00:07] Yes. I mean, what is this about?

John Dehlin [01:00:10] Like, well, if you don't believe it, you should, you shouldn't be a member, especially if you talk openly about it, then you're, you're causing other people to doubt and disbelieve. Gotta cut them off before they infect the minds of the members.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:00:24] But are they really causing contention or are they just wanting to say how they feel and then the other members around shouldn't be offended because they don't feel the same way. And yes, I agree that, you know, and I have been in different forms and I have felt different tones and I'm a French. I will not say that everyone out there who's prepoctively liberal Mormon speak very constructively about the church and really wants to. Some people are super negative and mean things and don't really want to rebuild or build the church, are contentious, and I can see how that's damaging.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:01:09] I know what I'm saying is pretty strong, and some people may see that as being anti or this or that, but I'm not trying to be anti. I'm not trying to break hearts out there. I'm trying to open hearts and open minds as to, let's try to understand each other and let's not, you know, close our ears and our eyes because we're too afraid of the outcome.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:01:32] Although I. I was like that. So I understand where they're coming from because there's this. This fear of everything's going to fall apart. But I'm still here. I mean, I'm still, still in. And I still hope that, you know, we can work this out. You know, so I've. I've listened to the podcast of the people who have been excommunicated and who have tried to, you know, explain. I forget their names, but I listen to them.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Calderwoods, Rock, Waterman.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:02:04] But. I don't understand. Like, I don't understand because they're wanting to be a part. And as long as, in my opinion, you want to be a part of the church, the community, no matter where you believe is, and you're not destroying the church, which I don't think they were doing by just stating how they feel. It's not because they feel that way that everybody else around has to feel the way they feel, but to be able to say how you feel shouldn't be, like, such a terrible thing.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] So what my stake president told me is people are listening to Mormon stories, and some people are falling away. You're tearing up families, you're leading people out of the church.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:02:51] But how many people. How do they know how many people actually left the church because of the podcast? And how many people do they actually know stayed in the church because of your podcast? Because I've heard both. I mean, actually, I haven't really heard anyone say I left once I learned, you know, once I listened to Don Valence this and that. And I mean, the information that you. You were giving or, you know, sharing or were the medium to share, you were being the messenger here. It's not like you were preaching against the church. I. I don't think.

Guest [01:03:23] No.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:03:25] So whatever information they, the members got from your podcast, that's information that's available outside of the podcast. And I don't see how, you know, the fact that you wanting to be completely honest and authentic and asking people from all spectrum whether they're in, out, in between. What is it you think? Why do you think that way?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:03:51] I don't see the crime in that. I don't see the crime in that. I mean, we need to be adults and own our decisions and not blame someone else for changing our minds. I mean, we. That's our choice to make. Like, like I'm saying, like, no one who listens to me has to agree with me. And this is not what is. This is about. This is about. This is my journey. This is how I feel. And some of the stuff, you know, the progressive Mormons feel, but each and every one of us has to find his own.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:23] And whatever resonates. It's not about convincing people of this or that. It's about, this is how we think, and this is how I think. And so let's talk, you know, let's discuss it. But to blame someone for changing someone else's mind, it's like, aren't we adults? I mean, can't we make those decisions for ourselves? If we going to believe or not believe or who we're going to follow? I mean, why can't they just. I don't know. I just don't get it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:49] I don't get it. And. And you didn't make me want to leave the church, so I don't see how, you know, I mean, it's different for everyone. But I mean, if it's like a shock factor, like they wanted to leave the church because they learned about all this stuff. I mean, no offense to Richard Bushman, but I think his book, like, probably drove away more people because he just laid all out there, you know, and I know my husband did.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:19] He had a huge, you know, faith crisis. And because of the. What he let. And again, it's not, it's not Richard Bushman's fault. He's just passing on the information here. He's, you know, don't kill the messenger, but I don't think it's right, especially when the people are not wanting. Wanting to leave.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:37] If they want to leave, then fine, but if they want to be a part of the community, just don't want to be put in a box. And yes, people talk and people share on Facebook and this and that, but so what, you know, if you don't want to read it, don't read it. Why blame people? Or, you know, again, we all have our own journeys. And if part of. Part of my journey is sharing is being outspoken about how I feel, why. Because I know from now many, many sources that there are Just too many people out there who don't. Who can say. Who can say out loud some of the things that I'm saying for fear of being rejected from their family, their friends, their community.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:21] They just are too afraid. And to me, it's just not acceptable that in a community like ours, we should live in fear, guilt, and shame and be driven by that. To me, that's just not acceptable.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] So Those are the 10 points you wrote in your article. Now I'll just ask you a few more questions, and then we'll wrap up.

Guest [01:06:50] So,

John Dehlin [01:06:53] you know, one. One orthodox member might say to you, who do you think you are to be making recommendations to a church that's led by God? You're a woman. You don't even have the priesthood. You're not even from the U.S. well,

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:07:12] sorry, there's more members outside of the U.S. today, so that's just not an argument.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] But I'm just, you know, as far as. As the leadership goes, mostly from the U.S. who are you to be telling the prophet how to run the church that's steadying the ark?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:07:27] First of all, I'm not trying to tell the prophet how to run the church. All I'm doing here is, can we talk about this? Can you listen to what the concerns are? I know that we need a prophet, an apostle, and a structure and leaders who are guided. And I don't disagree with that or argue against that. But I feel like more and more, there's this wall that's being built between the leadership, the headquarters in Salt Lake, and the members. Like, there's just this wall where you go there, you go there. But we are not, you know, we're in this ivory tower, and we do not interact and we do not listen to what's happening out there.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:08:07] Like, we delegate everything. It's like, no, Jesus was out there among the people. Jesus was talking to the people. Jesus was out there resolving concern. Help thou, my unbelief. I mean, this is not the image I have of what Jesus would do. Again, it goes back to what would Christ do? Because I don't see it. I don't feel it. I don't see it. I mean, saying good things and nice things over the pulpit, I mean, anyone can do that. But being out there and feeling with those who are hurt, trying to understand the concern, asking why? Why what's happening? Why all these people suddenly have all these faith crises?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:08:46] I mean, what is this about? It's like an epitome, an epidemic. I don't know the word, so. And I know they know I know they know. I don't think they're completely oblivious. But then address it. Show us that you know. Show us that you've heard. Show us that you know. Because I don't feel. Feel it. I don't see it. I feel like it's always trying to shove things, you know, away. Everything that's a little bit uncomfortable, we don't talk about or we try to eliminate so that you know, and that's not how it should be.

John Dehlin [01:09:17] So what if someone were to say they've heard these things for decades? They've made their decisions to do what,

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:25] to go or to stay or no,

John Dehlin [01:09:29] that the brethren know. All these things you've listed in your list, they've been hearing, give women more equality, give rights to gays and lesbians, be more open about history. This is. They know this and they've already made their decisions, which is what they're doing.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:46] We're not going to do anything about it.

John Dehlin [01:09:48] No, what they're doing is the way God wants it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:09:50] Well, I, you know, obviously it bothers a lot of people, enough people that it should be looked at. To me, it bothers enough people that we should consider and not to say change all of these things right now, because I know that's not happening. I know my church. I know that I'm not going to see any of this in my lifetime. You know, my kids, if they're lucky, might see something. But bringing the conversation, I think help push forward. Bringing the conversation on the table helps them see, okay, where is it that we could, you know, make this place a more encompassing place for everyone?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:10:31] I mean, I believe that we have the church we have today because other people have, you know, sacrificed. You know, whether it's the pioneers or whether it's the people who are progressives, you know, the Sikhs who were excommunicated. I mean, people who have brought the topics on the table have helped the church progress. And as long as, you know, I mean, when. When nobody says anything, then it's just the status quo and then the people suffer in silence. And then we just, like behind our, you know, we're not very happy, but we don't say anything. No, let's just see what can be done. Let's see, you know, and bring up these issues.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:11:09] And then maybe. Well, you know, Kate Kelly was excommunicated. Well, now there is a picture of women in the conference center. You know, women pray at General Kind Conference, which, you know, nobody ever noticed this didn't happen. But yes, she's out. But she's helped the church move forward and look at what is the woman's need in the church. And the church is really focusing on that right now or more. And there is progress because of her. So she may be out, but she did something that mattered and that pushed the church forward. And maybe that's my hope. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] So one real strong argument against these changes is that they'll destroy the church. There's the example, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, the Community of Christ, made a bunch of progressive changes, lost a ton of members. What if. And there's pretty good evidence to show that. If you share the history, if you start a pilot apologizing, you start acknowledging problems even now. I know so many people who left the church because the church put out the essays. Like some say that if the church follows these suggestions, it'll destroy the church as we know it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:12:24] Well, I don't know about that, but my hope is to have a church that's just honest and deals with the issues. I mean, as much as we know the good things and we need to push the good things forward, I'm not talking about them. I mean, we do service. I love the people I'm associated with in the church and there is so much good. And that's why I'm still there, because I recognize that. But we cannot ignore the suffering. We cannot ignore, you know, for the name of, you know, being afraid that, you know, it might draw people away. I mean, I don't believe in sacrificing people for the sake of, you know, I guess maybe that's wrong because it happens in the scriptures.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] But the atonement for the sake of sacrifice?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:13:13] Yes and no. No, but not in that sense. Like I'm thinking, you know, Nephi had to kill Laban so that, you know, they wouldn't be in ignorance. I don't know. I believe in, you know, making things work. I believe in, in just moving towards the light and alleviating suffering where we can, you know, and I don't have all the solutions, but they're out there and they have access to the higher power. So ask how it's done, you know, and I'm sure they do, but ask some more.

John Dehlin [01:13:48] What if somebody says to you, look, Juliana, if you don't believe it just leaves, leave. Why do you stay? Just leave, Leave. Go to the community of Christ. They believe in Joseph Smith and they allow same sex marriage and ordain women. Just go to that one. Don't try and make your own church go Find one that works.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:14:11] I know my answer to that is it's just not my home. I still am at home. This is where and how I grew up. And, and I'm attached to it, and I love it enough to want to stay. For me, it's like a family affair because the rest of the world couldn't care less what's happening. But the church is my family. And if there is an issue in my family, in my home, I'm not just pack up and go and turn around. I'm like, okay, what can we do? How can we fix this? You know, so it's. I love it enough to stay. I love it enough. I recognize the good and, and I hope and believe enough things to stay. I believe in the good that the church is doing and capable of doing.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Some would say if you have an abusive father, get out of the home.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:14:57] Excuse me?

John Dehlin [01:14:58] Some would say if you have an abusive father, find a new home.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:01] Yes. And when it comes to that point, then you do. You do leave. When it becomes too toxic, you do, and that's the best thing to do.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] But for you, you're not there yet.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:12] I'm not there yet, and I hope I won't, but it is not. Yes.

Risk of Excommunication and Personal Convictions

John Dehlin [01:15:19] Do you worry that there's a chance that you might end up excommunicated for the things you've shared in your op ed and in what you've shared today?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:28] You know, because in effect,

John Dehlin [01:15:32] you've basically expressed the same types of things that got me in trouble. Do you worry about that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:15:40] I do a little. I do a little. But it's not enough for me to just be quiet. I mean, again, I have seen too much suffering at this point. I have listened to many testimonies of people, you know, whether it's women being abused or mishandled. No, that's not the right word.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:16:02] Where wrong judgment have been wrong made by leaders because they're women, you know, abuse of the priesthood, gays who have suffered their whole life. I've just heard too much to be quiet at this point. And if, you know, they want to kick me out because I'm open about this, then it's their choice. But again, the church kicking me out doesn't take away anything from my relationship with God, Christ and the Holy Ghost. It really, really, really won't take that away. What it will take away, it's maybe being a part of the community.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:16:35] Even my friends, my true friends will remain my true friends. The punishment, I don't know. It will be sad for them. I think if they do that.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] What about you, though? What about your family? Your mom? I mean, think about. Okay, here's this. Your mom said that she was close to ending her life and everyone's life in your family and the church was what saved her.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:17:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:04] You had these wonderful experiences on your mission where you felt loved and supported and guided. You're risking all that now.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:17:16] What am I risking? I don't believe I'm risking my salvation. I know that God knows my heart. I know that Jesus knows my heart. Like, I could have a conversation with him. I have broken no commandments. I am just being honest and open and saying, let's address these issues.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:17:36] If this means I'm an apostate because I speak my truth, then that's what it is. But I have no fear of going to hell or losing my soul or. I mean, if my hell is made of people like me, then I think I'll be just fine. But there are people far worse than me, you know, and so I'm not worried about that. I'm not worried about that. I am worried about breaking people's heart whom I really love, my mission presidents whom I respect profoundly.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:18:12] Many of my really close friends who are. Who don't quite understand why, you know, why I'm like this or why I say this or why I don't just align and just, you know, be quiet. And I know that it will hurt my mission friends. Many of them are like, oh, she's gone completely crazy. We don't know what happened to her. I hope that me sharing my story kind of helps them understand where I'm coming from.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:18:37] That will hurt. That will hurt the fact that some of them will choose to reject me. But to be honest, I have enough of. I mean, I have a wonderful family, and they love me. Like my family in Belgium loved me when I was this annoying, preaching Mormon.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:18:56] When. Now that I'm questioning. And if I become an atheist, their love will never change. It didn't vary no matter where I was. And I wish it could be the same with my church. My true friends, they've seen me, some of them complete. My best friend in Belgium, she doesn't agree with me, with most of the things I say. She's still there. She still loves me. She's like, you know what? It's your journey. I'm not understanding it very well, but I'm here for you, and I want you near, and I don't want you to. I mean, we will not be separated. We may not see everything eye to eye, but as long as the love is there and the, you know, the friendship and, you know, I'm still the same person.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:19:36] It's not because my views have changed that I'm different. So, yes, that will hurt. That will hurt the people who choose to now, you know, like, you like to shun. Shunning people because, you know, the leaders have decided she's a bad guy, and so we are all going to turn our back and just not even look at her anymore. I mean, to me, that's just juvenile. And this is why I'm here. Because the leaders may have said of you that you're just this evil person, but I choose not to follow that because I've listened to you and I've seen how genuine you were when you made mistakes.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:20:11] You never tried to. You never said, you know, I've done everything perfectly. You've recognized when you, you know, you were further away from what you meant to do. I mean, I feel like you have been honest and painting you as this really evil person that now nobody should listen to or, you know, everything that comes out of your mouth is, like, not credible because you. You've been excommunicated. To me, it's. It's just. That's not how I handle things.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:20:42] So I will judge for myself if someone has worth or no. And. And no one else is going to tell me. You should not, you know, associate with this person or whatnot. I will decide. Like, if I found that you were or this weird person that has bad vibes and preach stuff that I disagree with, I would stay away from you, but I don't feel that. And so I'm not gonna go by someone else's judgment of you and follow that. That's not how I work.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] So you're willing to face the consequences if it comes to that?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:21:15] Yes. But I think that they will hurt a lot more. More than I will. Maybe it will fade away, because again, this is not about, you know, the world couldn't care less what's happening here, but in the church, I mean, all the people who know me, and I know quite a few people just because. Because, you know, my mission and, you know, I've just served. I've been up like Frontline, you know, for 30 years now. So I think it will. It will shake a lot of people if. If they decide to, like, kick me out, you know, and then the haters are going to have plenty to talk about. She tells the truth. She's a woman. She's black. That will be a feast.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] Well, let's hope. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:22:03] Yes.

Julienna's Beliefs and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:22:03] Okay, so this has been a wonderful discussion. Thank you so much for coming on. And as you know, the way that we always end is by having our guests share their testimonies and what they do believe in now. So thank you for coming on. But why don't you now share with us what you do believe in?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:22:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] And what's important to you?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:22:25] Well, I wrote this down because it was important to me that it come out right. I love the concept of Daoism, which I actually came across at BYU in my religions of the world class. So Taoism and Lao Tzu talks about following the way, the way of love, the way of goodness, the way of acceptance, the way of knowledge, the way of following our course.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:22:51] And here are just a few things that the Taozi, the Tao Te Ching. Yes. Says that really strike me. It says the hard and the stiff will be broken. Because she believes in herself, she doesn't try to convince others.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:23:14] Because he's content with himself, he doesn't need others approval. Because she accepts herself, the whole world accepts her. Can you step back from your own mind? And thus I understand all things. Leading and not trying to control this is the supreme virtue.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:23:34] Knowing others is intelligence. Knowing yourself is wisdom. Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. She isn't aware of her greatness. That is why she is truly great. Let your working remain a mystery. Just show people the results.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:23:56] And I believe that Jesus was the way because he embodied these virtues. He lived the way of happiness and showed us how we could do the same. However, he did comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. We need to break all these inner walls and not let fear, shame or guilt determine what we will or will not do. We need to learn from the best in and out of the church. Then trust our own judgment in the actions that we are taking. I believe the children are the most beautiful people on this planet. I learned a lot from just watching my children because they are themselves and they have no pretense.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:24:35] When we reach that point of authenticity, we become beautiful like them. I believe the light of Christ truly shines in everyone. And we need to strive to connect with with that light with everyone. I believe God wants all his children to be happy and come to him. I believe that we need to help each other reach our potential and find our own happiness. I believe that love has no fear. And that's all I've got for you, John.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] All right. Love has no fear. Juliana Villegas Haas. Thank you so much for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:25:13] Thank you for having me and listeners.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] Please join us@mormonstories.org if you have questions or comments, praise or even criticism of Juliana, share@mormonstories.org maybe Juliana, you can respond as you have time. Sure. And look for an op ed once a month for the foreseeable future by Juliana in the Sole Tribune. And she's working on a book, so in the coming years, look for more good writing from Juliana.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:25:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:25:48] All right, thanks. Thanks Juliana. And thanks to all of you for joining us on Mormon Stories. We'll see you guys again soon. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive, please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org audio and video for this podcast were provided by Richard Holdman.

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