Introduction to Religious Transition

Guest [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] Well, welcome to our first presentation of

John Dehlin [00:00:50] this, you know, the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Retreat, the presentation that Natasha and I have been starting off with for four years now. 40 plus presentations is a presentation around understanding and navigating a religious transition.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] So this presentation is to help you

John Dehlin [00:01:12] orient where you've been, where you are, and where you're going. Okay. And it's not meant to be the

John Dehlin [00:01:20] gospel, but I think it does a

John Dehlin [00:01:22] good job of helping orient you. So it's kind of like a roadmap. Is that all right? Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] The main thing we want to get

John Dehlin [00:01:31] across in this presentation is that a faith crisis is not some terrible, personal, awful, horrible thing that has happened to you as a victim. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] What we want to convey in this

John Dehlin [00:01:47] presentation is that you're going through a

John Dehlin [00:01:50] universal experience that life intended you.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] And I would even argue that religion intended you to go through, so you're not victims.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] I loved what was said yesterday about,

John Dehlin [00:02:05] or maybe it was on a podcast I was listening to, where the victim

John Dehlin [00:02:07] stance is the weakest stance.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] Like there are victims in the world. We've all been victims.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] But you don't want to assume the

John Dehlin [00:02:15] stance of a victim as your approach to life. You want to approach life as an empowered, informed, powerful human being. And the way to do that is to move from a place of victimhood to a place of empowerment. And that's kind of what this presentation is intended to do.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:34] And what to add to this is that it's hugely developmental, and we are ongoingly developmental creatures. We know a lot about development until the age of, like, 15, 16 as a lay audience, but development continues into adulthood. So your 20s have certain developmental steps. Your 30s have certain developmental steps. It doesn't escape my notice that most of the people we work with are somewhat in the midlife arena. And so that's a very huge part of your developmental journey, is to start questioning where you come from. That's a normal thing to be doing.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Yep.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:07] I also want to just say that this whole presentation comes from a social science hat. So we are not here talking about religion as Mormons or non Mormons. We're talking about. We're talking about this from human behavior and what we understand about social science. So things that we'll say are hard sometimes for us to hear. Even myself, when I put on my religious lens. But right now, I'm coming at it from a social hat lens.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Thank you. That's really important. So if you can't take off your

Natasha Helfer [00:03:36] theological religious lens, like, we would say this to anyone. Catholics Jews, atheists. Same, same, same concepts.

What Religion Is and Whether It Works

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Okay, so here is my slash, our

John Dehlin [00:03:50] best attempt at explaining what you are all going through as conscious, intelligent human creatures. We have advanced brains, which means we

John Dehlin [00:04:01] have the capacity for certain things that

John Dehlin [00:04:05] your average animal just doesn't have the capacity for. And certainly not plants. Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] We have the capacity for self awareness.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] We have the capacity to gather data and information and to make sense of that information. We have the capacity to have complex thoughts. We have the capacity for complex emotions, sophisticated emotions. And we have the capacity for complex behaviors and relationships and social structures and civilizations.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] That's what separates us, I believe, from

John Dehlin [00:04:37] the rest of the living creatures on the earth. It's this big, sophisticated brain.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] It's no accident that it takes 18

John Dehlin [00:04:46] years to nurture a human into adulthood.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] There's no other mammal that takes 18

John Dehlin [00:04:52] years to nurture their offspring into adulthood.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:57] And we now know it's 26 years actually, until your brain stops developing.

Guest 2 [00:05:01] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:02] And just think about that for a minute, because most of your big decisions were done before 26.

Guest 3 [00:05:08] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] That's brilliant.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:09] Including who you're probably partnered with.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Yep.

Guest 4 [00:05:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] And what. And what education you pursue, what career path you pursue. You made all those decisions before your

John Dehlin [00:05:20] brain was fully developed.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:21] Probably had some babies even.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] So, you know, it takes 26 years

John Dehlin [00:05:28] for your brain to get fully developed.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] It takes at least 18 years for

John Dehlin [00:05:31] you to be considered an independent legal adult.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] That's because it takes that long for

John Dehlin [00:05:36] your brains to get to their mature stage. Because our brains are so dang sophisticated. Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] So if you couple a sophisticated brain, sophisticated emotions, sophisticated intellectual capacity with the

John Dehlin [00:05:53] reality that this life is rife with war and famine and catastrophe and death,

John Dehlin [00:06:05] poverty and loss and grief, that is a horrible combination. Because now we can sit and feel and think and ruminate for our entire lives on how much suffering there is in our individual life and in the collective existence. Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] And we're relatively limited in our power to do anything about it or to even understand it. And so we sit here with these really deep, intense, existential questions that you can't imagine a kitten or a puppy or a monkey asking themselves questions like, who am I?

John Dehlin [00:06:57] Why do I exist? Where did I come from? What is the purpose of this life? Why do I feel so lonely and awful? Will I ever be loved? How should I behave? What's ethical and moral behavior? Why is there so much suffering in this life?

John Dehlin [00:07:22] When I die, is that the end? After death, will I ever see my loved ones again? Will I even exist? And how can I Feel safe in

John Dehlin [00:07:34] a life that feels sometimes so horrible.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Do you guys get. Do you guys get the conflict? Do you get the problem? This is the problem of the human condition. Like, it wasn't a problem necessarily when

John Dehlin [00:07:47] we were cavemen and women, when we

John Dehlin [00:07:49] didn't have language, when we didn't have ways to kind of really develop complex thoughts. But now in 2019, we have all that. And why is depression and anxiety and even self harm and suicide higher than it's ever been? The more sophisticated we get, the more capable we are of seeing how incredibly awful life can actually be.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:13] This is so optimistic.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] So where do religions come from? This is the soil of religion. Okay. From a social science perspective, as Natasha

John Dehlin [00:08:30] is careful to remind us, religion emerges as mankind's attempt to grapple and answer these questions. To grapple with and answer these questions.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:42] And what's really interesting about this is that the research used to think that religion started with agriculture. In other words, you want the food to grow and so you ask for some type of help. And now there's quite a bit of data showing that actually religion goes way back beyond agriculture, which means that really it wasn't about things growing. It was about these existential questions that started becoming complex for people.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] So when you think about Mormonism, as. As wonderful as that slide may be

John Dehlin [00:09:16] for you right now, or as triggering as that slide may be for you right now, I believe that Mormonism, like every major world religion, begins in that same way where its founder was grappling with life's most difficult questions. If you know anything about the life of Joseph Smith, what was he worrying about?

John Dehlin [00:09:39] He was worrying about poverty of his family. He was worrying about death of some of his siblings, of his brother Alvin. Right. He was worrying about what will happen in the next life. His parents were arguing about religion. His dad was more of a universalist, but his mom was more of a traditional Protestant Christian. Will we see Alvin again? Will my parents both make it to heaven? Will I make it to heaven? Will our family be together? Right. Those were all the central questions of what Joseph Smith was grappling with. And we kind of miss that in

John Dehlin [00:10:13] the whitewashed narrative that we. That we are given as orthodox Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] And so, you know, you can see the emergence of Mormonism immediately after Alvin dies. Right? Which not only caused Joseph to wonder if he'd ever see Alvin again, because Alvin wasn't born with the baptism. He didn't have a baptism. Right. So Joseph gonna see Alvin again. And then this burned over district in New York. You've got all these religions arguing, saying, you gotta have a Presbyterian baptism.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] No, you gotta have a Methodist baptism.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] No, you've got to have a born again baptism, right? And you have all these religions arguing and saying, this is the way to get to heaven. That's the way to get to heaven. And it's super stressful. And so I believe, love or hate,

Mormon Origins and Foundational Claims

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Joseph Smith, what he created was born

John Dehlin [00:11:00] out of sincere questions and concern about

John Dehlin [00:11:04] the fate of himself, of his family, and ultimately of the human race.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:10] And within a context of Christianity that was very rigid, very rigid, very black and white, very much, you know, listening to the idea that Alvin was in hell. I mean, I have several stories in my own background of babies that didn't make it to their baptismal blessing because of, you know, weather or death. And those babies are in purgatory forever, you know, according to many traditions. So you have to put it into context of the types of things that they were really worried about.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] So regardless of which version of the first vision, you buy into, kind of on the left hand side, the traditional

John Dehlin [00:11:48] version of the first vision, the, I guess 18. What? 40. 18, what was that?

Guest 1 [00:11:53] 1838.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] 1838 version of the first vision, or the multiple other versions, what we can all agree upon is, is that what emerged from Mormonism was a set of teachings and practices that helped address these

John Dehlin [00:12:10] fundamental existential questions of theology and a

John Dehlin [00:12:15] set of behavioral rules, right? And if you think about these awful existential questions that we're grappling with, and then you lay over that the plan of salvation, you realize that the plan of salvation literally answers every single one of these questions. And if you don't believe me, let's do a test.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Are you ready? Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] Who am I? Say it. Sons and daughters of God, why do I exist?

Guest 2 [00:12:50] Happiness.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] To have joy. To be exalted. To return to our Heavenly Father. Right? Where did I come from? We were all spirits with the loving heavenly Father and mother in the pre existence.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Right?

John Dehlin [00:13:04] What is the purpose of life? It's a test and it's a trial to help us thrive and return to live with our Heavenly Father again.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] Why do we feel lonely? It's the lone and dreary world. It was designed this way to be a what? And if you are lonely, what's the reason for that sin? You're not righteous enough. You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. Right? Will I ever be loved? You are absolutely loved. You are holy and unconditionally loved by heavenly parents that adore you. They know everything about you.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] And they love every piece of you, right? And if you're lucky, you have loving earthly parents who also love you and adore you.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] How should I behave?

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Keep the commandments.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Don't drink coffee, don't drink tea, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke. Go to church. Read your scriptures, Say your prayers, right? Go to the temple, do the ordinances, go on a mission.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:12] Clean the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Clean the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Like, if of all these things, I think how we should behave is where

John Dehlin [00:14:18] Mormonism shines the best.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Love your neighbor, all that stuff, right? Why is there suffering in this life? It's a test.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] It helps us growth. It helps us.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] What's that, Donna?

John Dehlin [00:14:32] It's for our good.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] It's for our experience. It's like a laboratory. It's like. It's like a school. When I die, is that the end?

Guest 3 [00:14:39] No.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Oh, no, no. You will live on forever. Enjoy and happiness and peace and love and glory after death. Will I see my loved ones again?

John Dehlin [00:14:49] That's probably the most important teaching, the most influential teaching in Mormonism, right? And that's why missionaries lead with that. It's like, doot, doot, doot, doot. Do you want to live with your family in heaven? We've got the answer, right?

John Dehlin [00:15:03] So that's it. Do you guys see how religion is, like, custom designed to resolve the existential

John Dehlin [00:15:11] crisis of the human existence?

John Dehlin [00:15:14] That's where from a social science perspective emerges from. And so we enter into an agreement. We all entered into an agreement. How many of you were converts to the church?

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Okay, maybe a fifth of you or a tenth of you.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] You entered into this agreement too. And this was the agreement. We, the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we will offer you an identity so that

John Dehlin [00:15:40] you know who you are.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] We will give you a sense of

John Dehlin [00:15:43] meaning and purpose in this life.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] We will tell you, we will give you friends, immediate friends. We will give you an immediate community. We will nurture and support your family. We will help strengthen your marriage. We will give you a source of unending spirituality. And we will give you a sense of morality. We will tell you how to live, how to be moral, how to be

John Dehlin [00:16:09] good, and how to, you know, live the best life possible. And all we ask in return is

John Dehlin [00:16:19] a two year mission, 10% of your

John Dehlin [00:16:22] income for the rest of your life, and three to ten years of service on average per week.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:27] Three to ten hours.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] What did I say?

Natasha Helfer [00:16:29] Years?

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Three to ten hours a week for the rest of your life. Your full unquestioning commitment and devotion, exact obedience. We get your children as a part of the deal, right? And you have to limit your relationships

John Dehlin [00:16:44] to only safe people.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:45] And it also requires, like, certain parameters. Like when we say we're going to support your marriage, it's only if you're in a heterosexual marriage.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] There are rules. Now, normally that second column elicits a

John Dehlin [00:16:58] huge laugh from the audience. I think this is the first time the audience didn't erupt in laughter.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Can you imagine? Why does that second column usually elicit such laughter? It's a lot. That's a lot. That's a big ask. 10% of your income for the rest of your life. Your children like unquestioning commitment and devotion and blind obedience. But here's the thing, right? Most people think that's a huge bargain. And how can that be? How can it be that? Such an amazing, phenomenal, gargantuan, unreasonable ask of exact obedience, unlimited commitment and devotion, your children, 10% of your income till you die. How can anyone feel like that's a bargain? We have our hand raised.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] We remember the rules.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Remember the rule.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] Wait, do you remember the rule?

John Dehlin [00:17:51] It's just a one liner for eternity. It's your ticket to happiness.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] For eternity.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:57] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] And let me ask you guys to

John Dehlin [00:17:59] stand up when you talk so that Clint will be able to get you on the camera. Thank you. We're learning as we go.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Yes. The reason why it's a bargain, the reason why it's a bargain is because if you don't have that, guess where you are. You're back here. And guess what? That's why you're all here today.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:23] Does this feel very good? Because you're back here to be in this place.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] You're back here, aren't you? Aren't you back here right now?

Natasha Helfer [00:18:31] In a lot of ways.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] In a lot of ways. Maybe not in every way, but in

John Dehlin [00:18:35] a lot of ways, you're back here.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] And so as angry as we are at Mormonism maybe, or at the church or as much as we hate religion sometimes, Right. What we forget is that it offers us something very valuable. Because when we're here, you can get stuck here and you can.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Your life can end here.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:59] A Catholic poet, theologian calls this the dark night of the soul. The dark night.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] We need someone to shuffle a microphone around.

Guest 4 [00:19:10] I would say being back there, I love being back there.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] Sure.

Guest 4 [00:19:16] Because that means I'm free. That means I'm not being manipulated. And while I think you're correct that religion takes advantage of the fact that as humans, we have these Questions, I guess for me, I don't ascribe it such a great motive.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Okay, can we, can I just say

John Dehlin [00:19:47] we're gonna get there. You're jumping ahead.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] I love it that you're getting to the end. At the beginning, what you're saying is

John Dehlin [00:19:54] that this is a huge gift and that's how this presentation is gonna end.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] But can you relate to feeling this way? Because what led you to join the Church in the first place,

Guest 4 [00:20:08] I think part of it was the age I was 18. And so that's an age where you're just trying to figure out your life

John Dehlin [00:20:15] and you need meaning.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Right.

Guest 4 [00:20:17] I would also say.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] Wait, can I pause?

Guest 4 [00:20:19] You.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] You wanted.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] You wanted identity. You wanted a sense of meaning.

Guest 4 [00:20:25] I wanted a sense of purpose.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] You wanted a sense of purpose.

Guest 4 [00:20:29] But I think there's also an aspect of, as a woman, while this wasn't a conscious thought, then when you sort of survey the world as a woman, you have to make a choice of where are you going to be the safest.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Yeah, you want it safe.

Guest 4 [00:20:49] And while this may sound crude, a little bit for many women, they would rather. We would rather, because I chose this. We would rather be beholden to one man than be subjected to attacks by multiple men. And so, you know, the woman who chooses purposefully to go in and give up who she is as part of the bargain, part of what she's getting back that you don't have on that list, is protection and safety from how the world is towards women. And what we get in return, which is still dangerous, is what is, like pedestal treatment. Right?

Guest 5 [00:21:43] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:21:43] Look at our wonderful women. They're holy. They don't need the priesthood because they're already so wonderful. And all of this talk of, like, how great women are, and yet inside we know we must not be that great.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Can we give her applause? How beautiful. So beautiful. Before you, before you respond, I just want to say that was beautiful. That was important. That was very powerful. I, I, when we write this, I

John Dehlin [00:22:17] think we have written this, at least

John Dehlin [00:22:19] in part, with what you're saying in mind, because when you talk about friends and community, when we talk about family and marriage, when we talk about morality, meaning, purpose, identity, all those things serve a protective function. And so, yes, what I love is that you added a really important feminist perspective to what we're talking about here. But I do think we're kind of at least overlapping in what we're saying in many areas, because I do think the church ultimately provides you protection in a scary world, and that's what we're trying to get out with those red questions. Right. The world is scary. Religions provide protection at a cost.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:01] Another thing that I would say about this presentation is that what we're talking about today could easily be covered in a full semester of real, in depth study. And so it's going to be somewhat generalized and it is going to obviously miss a lot of like, more intricate details of how this affects issues of gender, issues of orientation, issues of sexuality, issues of personalities, of belief, of belief. There's just, I mean, because we are so wide, you know, in our ability to be human. So bear with us a little bit that this is a very generalized presentation, even though it's the longest part of our presentation and we've always talked about to make it shorter and yet it is so complex. So we appreciate you bringing your complexity to it because it is complex and yet just understand that there is some limitations to this presentation. Obviously we had a hand right here.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] My position is that I still hold that it's a hell of a bargain if. And that's the key word for me. If it's true. Yeah. Then it's a hell of a bargain. Yeah. If it's legitimate, I still hold it's a great bargain. If it's a fabrication and you can't deliver on what you proclaim or promise, then all of a sudden the bargain isn't that great anymore. It changes dramatically.

Guest 1 [00:24:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Let's give it.

When the Church Stops Working for You

John Dehlin [00:24:29] So

John Dehlin [00:24:32] there's a really important point presentation that a friend, Dr. Dave Christian, gave in a Mormon Stories podcast episode back in 2011 in New York where he talked about, I would say you have half of the equation right, Carl. Validity is really important whether the church is true or not. But also utility is also very important. In other words, does the church make you happy?

John Dehlin [00:24:55] And there are actually some people that

John Dehlin [00:24:56] don't care a whit about whether it's true. See, that's a value that you have that I have that many of us in this room have. We care about validity, we care about truth. There's another whole value that someone can have which is, does it work for me? Does it make me happy? Does it help me in my marriage? Does it help me raise kids? And you will be able to find

John Dehlin [00:25:17] a whole host of Mormons. You could talk to them about Peepstones

John Dehlin [00:25:22] and Book of Abraham and Fanny Alger until they're blue in the face.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] They won't care for three seconds because

John Dehlin [00:25:29] they're like, will it help me in my marriage? Will it help me be happier? Will it help me raise My kids. I don't care about anything else.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] And so there's the validity and the utility part.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:39] And that's why you see many people in transition. Either, again, this is a simplification, but either it's history concerns or it's social justice concerns. So you might have a family who finds it very utilitarian until they have a gay child. And now all of a sudden, the one thing that was really important to them now doesn't fit with their values or family experience.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] And truth becomes. One of.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] You said it last night.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Truth becomes the way you feel good

John Dehlin [00:26:04] about leaving the church because you're upset that your gay child is being hurt. And so the historical stuff isn't what got you out.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] It was the social justice stuff that got you out.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] And it was the history that just made you feel better about your decision to leave.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:19] Somebody said that.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Does that make sense? That was you? Yeah. There was another hand. Yes. We need a microphone. Runner y.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:25] You're doing such a good job. Thank you, young men. Thank you.

Guest [00:26:31] Sorry.

Guest 5 [00:26:31] I chose him. So I would say that my experience speaks to the utility of the church because I was raised in a park member family. My stepfather was an atheist. Home was very tumultuous and was very unhealthy for me. And so the one place that I found safety was at church and knowing that these people love me even though I don't fit their mold. Exactly. But it was the one place that was calm, that I could find peace, that I found some sort of solace from the turmoil that was my life.

Guest 5 [00:27:04] And it led me. All my siblings left the church when they were teenagers, except me. And I was always the sheep, the follower. But for me, it gave me a focus that was good. And it led me to my husband, which, from my background, having a marriage like I have is unheard. Like, I just. I never saw this. The first seven years of our marriage, I was waiting for him to tell me he was gay or to. For the shoe to drop or for him to die, because good marriages don't happen. Right. And so that's what that gave me, was that utility. It gave me what I have.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] And Mormonism created him.

Guest 5 [00:27:47] Exactly. And so to let that go is like, I'm not sure how to do that because then what does that mean for my children?

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Yeah, that's what this whole weekend's about.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:57] And that's a wonderful irony that came out.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Can we give her applause really quick?

Natasha Helfer [00:28:04] That was. It's a wonderful irony. What he brings up is that, you know, I've worked with a lot of different people in my life coming from all different kinds of cultures and religions. And my favorite people are Mormon people. So as upset as we are about our, you know, heritage and the betrayals, it does create a phenomenal group of people.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] I mean, aren't we amazing?

John Dehlin [00:28:24] I mean, really objectively, aren't we amazing?

Natasha Helfer [00:28:27] We're pretty awesome. And I will also say, I'll just second that, you know, So I work a lot with John Dehlin with Mormon Stories retreats, but I also work a lot with Dan Witherspoon and Mormon Matters retreats. And I don't know how many of you are familiar with Dan Witherspoon, but he tries to do the more nuanced approach to Mormonism, people who want to stay. And so people who usually show up at his retreats tend to be people that are still active, maybe mixed faith marriages, those kinds of things. And this is wide sweeping. This is not like official research I've done, but I will say this, that I have noticed anecdotally that at the Mormon Stories retreats, there's a lot more anger and there's a lot more people that come from very functional black and white Mormon families.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:12] Okay, so they were rigid, but they were loving and they were supportive. The people who are at the Mormon Matters retreats come from the hippie families, inactive families, alcoholic families, military families like mine, where the church did have a very functional approach, and they're less likely to care about the history. So that's just my experience. Experience with two different populations of faith transitioners.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] So one of the things

John Dehlin [00:29:42] we want to communicate is something that people hate to hear, especially ex Mormons and secular people. And people get mad at me for when I say it. But I think religion is a bargain. Given the alternative of nothing. I think religion is better than nothing, that as much damage as it can cause, it would be worse to have nothing. And it's kind of like. This is a horrible analogy, but it's like Iraq. Yeah, it was awful to have a dictator, but look what happened when we got rid of them, right? Would you rather live in a tyranny or an anarchy? Personally, I'd rather live in a tyranny because at least there's order and structure.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] And so.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] And by the way, there's a lot more wonderful things about Mormonism than that. And so I'm using kind of stark comparison.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] So you all sign up for this deal whether you wanted to or not. Some of you chose it as adults or as teens.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Others of you were born into it. And eventually you gained your own testimony of it being true.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] But ultimately, ultimately, as we were just saying, this religious experience, you know, if

John Dehlin [00:30:58] it works for you, it's amazing. You literally, it's.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] The iron rod is such a beautiful

John Dehlin [00:31:03] metaphor for, you know, if you think

John Dehlin [00:31:06] about Lehi's dream, you know, and the iron rod, you literally, all you have to, there's dark, there's darkness, there's myths, there's iniquity, there's bad people. That's all true. And all you have to do is close your eyes, hold onto the rod, do what you're told, follow it, and you get to the end, which is the tree of life and joy and of happiness. Like, you close your eyes, hold onto

John Dehlin [00:31:35] the rod, and you follow it.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] It can almost be easy street. You literally just sign up for this religious deal and 5, 10, 15, 20,

John Dehlin [00:31:44] 50 years can go by in an instant.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] Right?

Natasha Helfer [00:31:47] And whether we like it or not, the research supports this. So the research consistently shows that people who are involved in religious communities where they feel a part of. Not people who feel marginalized by the religious community, but people who feel integrated in their religious communities do better than the rest of us. Mental health, on average. Yes. And marriage and parenting, things like that. So it's difficult research to go through for me, but it's something we need to grapple with.

Guest 2 [00:32:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] People would not expect me or us to be saying religion is good and has value. So I say that to the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] I just said it, Mormonism included. So this all works until it doesn't, like it was said before. What if you discover that it isn't

John Dehlin [00:32:39] true, that it isn't what you were taught? That's when easy street becomes a train wreck. Right?

John Dehlin [00:32:45] Or, and that's the, that's the validity perspective.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] Or what if it just doesn't work for you anymore?

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Right?

John Dehlin [00:32:54] It just stops working.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] That's the utility perspective.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] You have a gay child, you're a feminist, you're abused some way in the church, it makes you sad, you're a

John Dehlin [00:33:04] perfectionist, and you just get ground down with sadness. Whatever it is, either you find out

John Dehlin [00:33:10] it isn't true or it stops working.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] You all have, you all expressed yesterday

John Dehlin [00:33:15] in your introductions that moment, that moment when you realized that either maybe it's not true or maybe it's just not working for me anymore.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Can you all go back in your mind to almost a moment when that happened, when you're like, oh my gosh,

John Dehlin [00:33:37] not sure if this is true, or oh my gosh, this is just not working anymore?

John Dehlin [00:33:43] And it's kind of like the Truman Show. Do you guys remember that moment on the Truman Show? Truman's living in this fabricated world. It's this idyllic, beautiful world, as far as he knows. All of a sudden, one day he's

John Dehlin [00:33:56] getting into his car and what happens? Who remembers what happens?

Guest 2 [00:34:02] Light falls from the sky.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] A light falls from the sky. That's the moment when all of a

John Dehlin [00:34:07] sudden you realize that it may. It may not be what you thought, okay?

John Dehlin [00:34:14] And thus you get launched into a faith crisis, right? Which is what did I just spend the last X number of years of

Feelings of Alienation, Betrayal, and Lost Trust

John Dehlin [00:34:23] my life doing, right?

John Dehlin [00:34:28] And it can feel like a nightmare. It can feel like Friday the 13th. It can feel like, you know, the Saw.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] Like what's the worst horror movies of today? Like, what are they? I don't watch horror movies anymore.

Guest 5 [00:34:44] But

John Dehlin [00:34:47] think of it, you know, think of the worst nightmare possible. That's what it can feel like. Because if the church is no longer true and. Or good, all of a sudden, think about all the things that it offered in that contract. All of a sudden you have no idea why you exist anymore. You realize that your identity and who you are, your self understanding, was based on something that is false. Your family relationships now are totally built on a foundation that has dissolved and crumbled before your eyes. Your friendships and community too, all those friends, the ward relationships, that whole community that you thought was totally there for you, totally had your back, totally loved you, unconditionally, can evaporate in an instant.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] And you realize, oh my gosh, those relationships, we're about a centimeter thick. This doesn't happen to everyone, but it can happen.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:54] Drastically common. And it's very sad.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] It's very common.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] What do you do if you find out your marriage was based on something false? The person you've given your whole life to, the person you've built a life

John Dehlin [00:36:05] with and raised your kids with, all of a sudden, the foundation evaporates.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] What about all those decisions you made

John Dehlin [00:36:16] to be a mom or a dad? Your career, your profession, your education.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] All those decisions you made that shape before your brain was fully formed, right? You made under false pretenses upon a Sandy foundation. Ironically, we hear that primary song. The wise man builds his house upon the what? And the foolish man built his house upon sand. All of a sudden, like we're being silly about something catastrophically devastating because we

John Dehlin [00:36:54] discover that we built our lives on sand.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] And then we have to face the

John Dehlin [00:37:02] feelings of being afraid.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Afraid.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] The feelings of being alone.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Questions about our own worthiness.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] Or worth. Worth.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Now we have to face death. Will we exist in the afterlife?

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Will we exist when we die?

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Will we see our kids again? Does this life have any meaning or purpose at all? Will I ever see my loved ones again? And maybe the biggest difficulty of all is realizing that you allowed this to happen. You know, other people left, other people figured it out.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] Other people didn't join this church or left when they were young.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] So in some way you were complicit in this, right? So one of the biggest, most harmful things. Can I ever trust myself again?

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Right?

John Dehlin [00:37:59] How do I know if I can

John Dehlin [00:38:00] ever trust myself or another human again or any organization? And thus, so many ex Mormons are jaded and they don't trust anybody and they don't want to follow anything and they don't want to believe anything because

John Dehlin [00:38:13] it's all going to disappoint you in the end. So why bother, right?

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Why even bother? Does anybody want to express what they're feeling right now? Fred?

Guest 2 [00:38:28] Yeah, on that point, that's exactly how I felt once I left was because I already had friends who left and just dealing with the guilt and wonder if I went too long, how come I didn't leave with them years ago? And is it because I'm a terrible person and the things that they saw at the time didn't weigh on me and trying to come to grips with. I was just at a different point in my path than they were. But still that guilt is there that, well, as soon as they raise the alarm, I should have left too beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Anybody else want to be vulnerable? Who connects with one of the points on the slide?

Guest 3 [00:39:06] So I'll say something. I was just kind of thinking like, you, you come to this understanding, you're like, wow, this isn't. This isn't real. Like, my whole life is built upon a lie. I could have pursued a different life. I could have maybe traveled more and not been tied down to these kids, whatever it is. And you're just like, holy cow. But at the same time, we have this.

Guest 3 [00:39:27] Mormonism is kind of like woven into who we are as a person. So you're having these, wow, it's not true. This is great. Maybe I could have had a different life, but at the same time, I'm awful. I'm doubting, God's disappointed with me. What have I done wrong? How did I get here?

Guest 3 [00:39:44] So there's. It's kind of this. It almost kind of drives you into an even deeper depression where you're just like, I'm going to hell. And I'm being deceived by the devil, and I'm going to disappoint my parents and so forth and so on. And so being in that dark nightmare space is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

John Dehlin [00:40:01] Thank you, Adam.

Guest 6 [00:40:02] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] Thank you, everyone, for being vulnerable.

Guest 6 [00:40:09] I have issues with anger because I stayed in for a really long time, and I knew something was wrong. And then when I found out there were a lot of things wrong, I'm really angry because I lost all that time, and I made decisions based on something that was false, and I'm angry about it. I'm angry about being deceived for so long when I felt. And I don't trust myself because I always felt like something wasn't right. And I kept being dragged back in, like, no, something's wrong with you. It's not the church. Something's wrong with you. And I'm still angry about that. And I don't.

Guest 6 [00:40:50] And I'm mad. And I have distrust with people because if they ever question me, I feel like it's because I'm angry at anybody that doesn't trust something that I say, because I think, well, I've been right about the church for all this time, and I was told that, you know, something was wrong with me, and now I know I was right. So I'm just jaded all the time.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Yeah, it's triggering. Anyone disagrees with you, it's like, wait a minute.

Guest 6 [00:41:16] Yeah, I feel like I'm always bitchy.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:41:18] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Who else connects emotionally with a bullet on this slide?

John Dehlin [00:41:25] Go ahead, Isaac. And then.

Guest 3 [00:41:28] Okay, I guess I'll face the crowd.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] No, face the camera.

Guest 3 [00:41:31] Face the camera.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:41:32] This is awkward. No, I grew up. I had serious doubts my entire life. And somebody yesterday talked about how they don't trust anybody anymore because they lied to them their entire lives. Well, I was one of the liars. You know, I had faith in other people's faith, and I tried really hard. I knew all the right answers, but it didn't work for me. But I don't think everybody out there is trying to lie and deceive us, per se. They're doing their best.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] They believe it works for them.

Guest 3 [00:42:02] They believe it. But it's kind of interesting to be on the other side of the fence.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] And I'll just add, a lot of

John Dehlin [00:42:12] people experience some of their most intense anger at having been complicit in what they then perceive to be a lie. In other words, I went to a foreign country and taught people this, right?

John Dehlin [00:42:24] I sat on that Stake High Council

John Dehlin [00:42:26] And I excommunicated that woman who was caught in adultery. I was part of it. Right. Can you relate to those feelings?

Guest 4 [00:42:37] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:42:37] For me, all these answers that we got from this planet of salvation was a beautiful thing for me in my life. It was like a warm blanket to know why we're here and where we're going and we're going to see our family again. I lived my whole life believing this, and it was a very comfortable thing when you're in it, to really, truly believe this and think that you have these answers. For me, when I discovered that it wasn't what I thought it was, it was hard. And I went through these moments of feeling deceived and anger. I did go through all those moments, but I didn't regret anything that had happened in my life.

Guest 7 [00:43:09] I didn't regret my mission. For me, I mean, maybe certain things I taught. I wish I could have taught them differently or more openly, but it still made me grow so much, you know, that the church introduced me to my wife, and I have the children and the career and everything that I have now because of it. And so I can't disregard that. It was a very important thing. But being where I'm at now, and the bullets on this, you know, slide that hit me the most is the fear of death, not being able to see my family again. For me, I was in the church, not necessarily for the community.

Guest 7 [00:43:36] That was nice and everything, but it was for those big philosophical answers of why we are here and where we're going. That's what I tell them, my mission. Do you ever wonder this? Why we're here, where you're going, and to not have that now is what opens this cavity and this hole that I need to fill. And I don't know how.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Beautiful, beautiful.

Guest 2 [00:43:54] Thank you,

John Dehlin [00:43:57] Holly.

Guest [00:44:02] Yeah, I'm just feeling a lot of emotions. Just, I think the underlying question, which is here today and last night, I was scrolling through Instagram and saw this quote by one of my favorite authors, Eckhart Tolle, who was instrumental in my journey. And he said something about that true change cannot happen without addressing the fundamental question of who am I at the deepest level? And I think that's the key, is figuring out at the deepest level, who am I? And I think for my time in the church, the Plan of Salvation answered those questions for a long, long time.

The Dark Night of the Soul in a Faith Crisis

Guest [00:44:43] And then I just came to a point where it didn't work for me, and I needed just more depth to that question. And so I just felt very spiritually disconnected to that plan. And have been able to find more of that spiritual aliveness or connection in other ways. And I think that that's why we're all really here, is because we're really looking for that answer at a deeper level.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah. And that's right where we're going.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] Okay, one more. One more comment, Camille.

Guest 8 [00:45:24] I'll be quick. I. If my husband ever listens to this broadcast, he's going to be astounded because I'm actually coming to his defense. He's a Mormon scholar, he's a sort of layman's historian, and he's very much still in the church. And there really isn't a finer human being. And the functional life that I live is so built upon what he was taught by the principles of being raised in the church. And I don't even want to say, but I'm. But I'm like. But I'm progressing beyond that, you know, like, I'm ready to fly free of someone thinking for me, because he's chosen someone actually quite brighter than I am and a lot more knowledgeable, has chosen different path.

Guest 8 [00:46:23] So I'm already learning so much from this conference about myself, even from hearing the rest of you, but I don't. I'm realizing I don't even want to say I, but I've progressed beyond, because it's insulting to him. So, yeah, I like you. I feel like I don't regret anything. I've learned so much, so much discipline and so much functional living from the foundation I was given by. By the church, and I'm choosing something else, but I have a lot of respect for what I was given.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you, Camille.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] And. And when we get to the mental

John Dehlin [00:47:03] health section, we'll talk about attachment and labels and story and how they're not useful. And there is an implication derived from this presentation which is will all of us, and it's even going to be explicit in a few slides where we've all sort of graduated to a higher level of existence. That is a fair implication someone could derive from this presentation. And I would just respond and say, that's a story. That's a label. That's not useful. We're trying to make sense of where we are and where we're going. And part of our task is to do that and not sit in judgment over others who have chosen a different path, because then how are we any better than what we came from if we do that right?

John Dehlin [00:47:42] So we have to find a way to do both to understand where we

John Dehlin [00:47:44] are and where we're going and not be that judgmental, pious jerk that looks down on others. So, Camille, thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:51] We're letting you sit in this kind of muck for a minute before we start explaining to you where you've been, where you are. It's not what you think so much. And we're not as smart as we think we are. And we're not in control as much as we think we are, because we're human creatures and we have a lot of similarities, regardless of the direction we end up choosing, what drives those things are actually very similar. So you're not that different. And one thing that I talk about a lot, which I'm sure you'll hear me repeat a lot, is we don't leave our processes behind with our beliefs.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:27] And we come from huge black and white DNA, huge. As Americans and as Mormons. It's like the steroids of black and white thinking. And so we will take that with us. And we need to be very cautious of that propensity moving forward so it can get very easy to get very black and white about this. So I'm really grateful about the comments that have to do with complicating it.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] So when this dark night of the

John Dehlin [00:48:56] soul happens, when you hit this faith crisis, sometimes you can feel like that groundhog, right?

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Who, like, peeks out in spring and says, you know, is spring here? And decides it's a little bit too cold.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] And what does the groundhog do? Runs right back in the hole. Have any of you ever felt the urge to run back in the hole?

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Not all of you. Some of you are like, woo hoo, right?

John Dehlin [00:49:21] But others of us are like, oh, my gosh, get me back. Can I just go back? Can I? I took the red pill. Can I take the blue pill, please? Right?

John Dehlin [00:49:30] But this is the. This is the point I began with

John Dehlin [00:49:33] that we're going to return to now.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] This is not a unique Mormon experience, right? It does not matter what religion or system you were raised in or converted to. If you were awake and alive, this was going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] If you are alive, if you are

John Dehlin [00:50:00] paying attention and you reach adulthood with the thinking brain and a sensitive heart, you will have a crisis of faith. Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Methodist, agnostic, atheist, atheist, it doesn't matter. I can't tell you how many people come to these retreats as converts who join the church being raised by who?

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Atheist parents, atheist or agnostic parents.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] Because how often does an atheist or agnostic parent raise their kids without maybe

John Dehlin [00:50:43] a strong sense of identity, without a strong community, without A strong moral compass

John Dehlin [00:50:48] without a real significant sense of meaning and purpose. And what do you call a kid raised atheist or agnostic who didn't get those things? What do you call them?

John Dehlin [00:51:00] An investigator for a Mormon missionary. Do you understand?

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Because they reach their adulthood and like, my life's a mess and I don't know why I'm even here. And I want to die because I'm so miserable. Hello, brothers. My name is Elder so and so. And I have a message to you about eternal families and how life can bring joy and happiness. And all of a sudden, those kids

John Dehlin [00:51:27] raised in secular homes are like, I'm in. Come on in.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] Right? So this includes Mormonism, all the different

John Dehlin [00:51:36] religious traditions, Judaism, post Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] If you think you're going to raise your kids secular and that's the end of their journey, you're crazy. They will have a faith crisis and rebel against the system you give them.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:49] Do you see that supposed to do that as part of their development? Healthy.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] It's healthy. Otherwise, you're no. No less dictatorial than some orthodox prophet if you think whatever system you raise your kids in, that's the one they need to stick with because it's the truth. Right?

Guest 3 [00:52:08] So

John Dehlin [00:52:11] no system.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] One more slide.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] No system. No person, no group, no podcast host, no therapist. No therapist. Right. No Facebook group, no relationship you ever have, no retreat, no relationship you ever

John Dehlin [00:52:31] have will give you all that you need.

Guest 5 [00:52:34] So

John Dehlin [00:52:37] that is why we have this. Okay, this slide is worth whatever you

John Dehlin [00:52:44] paid to come to this retreat today, which is nothing.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] But this slide is one of the most valuable slides I have in a

John Dehlin [00:52:51] deck of over 500 slides.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] It is the Religious or Life Transitions

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Media hall of Fame.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] The purpose of this slide is to prove to you that you are actually just. You are not, you know, these super special, victimized ex Mormons who. Woe is me. I've been treated awfully and my life is terrible.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:13] And this is hard because we were told we were special.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:16] As post Mormons, we feel really special, too. It's hard.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] But this slide proves to you that you are going through what is actually a universal experience. What we're doing is a therapeutic technique called normalizing. Normalizing makes you remember you all came here saying, I'm alone. I feel alone.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] I feel broken.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] I feel like I'm going crazy. Right? You're not alone. You're not crazy. And what's my proof? Here's 10 Hollywood movies that describe exactly what you're going through. And guess what? None of them were made by Mormons Okay. What very successful movies? So let's do a quiz.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:54:00] This is your Hollywood cinematic faith crisis aptitude test.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] What movie is that? Truman Show. What movie is that?

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Matrix. What movie is that?

John Dehlin [00:54:14] Small Foot.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] Small Foot, Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:17] Came out.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] What movie is that?

John Dehlin [00:54:19] Tangled. What movie is that?

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Pleasantville. What movie is that?

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Moana. What movie is that? The Village.

Storytelling, Mythology, and the Tree of Knowledge

John Dehlin [00:54:31] What Broadway musical is that?

John Dehlin [00:54:34] Wicked.

John Dehlin [00:54:35] What movie is that? This is the.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] This is the one that least people get. That's Ricky Gervais.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Liar. What?

John Dehlin [00:54:41] The event.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] It's called the Invention of Lying. Okay, do you realize these are all the same movie? This is all one movie. But you know what's most mind blowing of all? You guys ready to have your mind blown? Raise your hand if you're ready to

John Dehlin [00:54:57] have your mind blown.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] There is a movie that you have all seen many more times than all of these movies put together that actually

John Dehlin [00:55:08] tells the exact same story. Anyone to know what movie that is? The movie in the Mormon Temple ceremony.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] This is a universal story. We begin with a simplified, shallow, and ultimately inadequate system. Think Truman Show. Think the Village. Think Smallfoot. Think every movie on that last slide, right?

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Eden.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] We start in Eden. It's fake. It's not real. It's manufactured. It's inherited. It's handed to us by somebody else who had our best interests in mind and who probably thought it was real on some level, or at least valuable, if not real. All your relationships get interwoven into this system, right? And it feels great, or at least not awful, right? Somewhere between not awful and great for the majority of the people.

John Dehlin [00:56:11] Of course, there are the exceptions. The gay kid, the feminist, the intellectual, the three great enemies of the church. You know, it doesn't always feel good to be them, right?

John Dehlin [00:56:21] But for the average person in the system, Eden feels great. Truman felt great, Right? The people in the village felt safe and happy. Right? But then what happens? What's the cinematic beginning of the conflict in Eden? What happened?

John Dehlin [00:56:42] What happened?

John Dehlin [00:56:44] What was like the moment that things changed? What was the moment that actually everything changed? There was one moment where everything changed.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] What happened, Eve?

John Dehlin [00:56:56] And isn't it great that it's a woman who did the cool thing, A woman who did the badass thing, right?

Natasha Helfer [00:57:03] And we honor her in Mormonism. That's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Eve partook of what? The fruit of what?

Guest 8 [00:57:12] Knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Knowledge from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. She partook of the fruit. And what immediately happened when Eve partook of the fruit?

Natasha Helfer [00:57:23] Her eyes were open.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] Her eyes were opened. Her eyes were opened. Right. And how did it feel like at first, it felt great. And what did she want to do? Like all you ex Mormons, what do you want to do? You want to tell everybody? You want to spread it? You want to get other people to partake of the fruit, too, right? But then there's the sad or the hard part, which is what? What happened when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit?

John Dehlin [00:57:53] They.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Their eyes were open. They felt shame.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] Then what?

Natasha Helfer [00:57:59] They had to wear garments.

John Dehlin [00:58:02] They had to wear garments.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] They were kicked out. They were kicked out of Eden. Cast into where? Not outer darkness. You guys are mixing your. Your. Your Mormon method, your Mormon stories. They were not cast just one second. They were cast into what? The lone and dreary. Some of you have not been to the temple in a while. They were cast into the lone and dreary world to face what? Thorns, thistles, and noxious weeds.

Guest 3 [00:58:37] Good.

John Dehlin [00:58:38] That is every one of these movies written by non Mormons. That is the human experience. And it was there all along in your most sacred Mormon ordinance. It was there. And when they said, you can really, if you keep trying and go to the temple, you'll learn something new every time, well, guess what? That was true. There was stuff to learn that you weren't seeing.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Okay, Donna, I just want to point

Guest 5 [00:59:03] out that there's one other thing that

Natasha Helfer [00:59:04] happened before they got kicked out, and

John Dehlin [00:59:06] that was that Adam said, do you

Guest 5 [00:59:07] know what that is?

John Dehlin [00:59:08] I can't partake of that. So there's that rejection from people who. Yeah, yeah, There's. There's the. There's the familial rejection. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [00:59:17] I love that.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:17] Of course, yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Let's make into it. Heavenly Father commanded us that we not eat right.

Guest 4 [00:59:25] The. The story of Adam and Eve actually means. Means a lot to me personally through this faith journey with my wife.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] I hope we're not desecrating it.

Guest 4 [00:59:33] I think it's hilarious, and I'm having a good time. But. So when Lily first started really investigating things and reading history about that time, she wrote a long essay about Eve and what Eve meant to her and just the concept of transgression and eating the apple. And that was a very meaningful thing for her to come to and feel comfortable exploring and breaking out of the system. And. And it was very much like, in our marriage, like it was with Adam and Eve. She's like, abe, I have this information,

John Dehlin [01:00:06] and I'm like, no, I will not partake.

Guest 4 [01:00:10] But it was very similar to the Eve story in that it's like, wow, I will now be In a separate place from my wife.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] Like, we will not share if I do not partake.

Guest 4 [01:00:19] We will not share.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] We will not stay in the world.

Guest 4 [01:00:21] It will be so different.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] You'll be cast out.

Guest 4 [01:00:24] We'll be so different in how we view the world. So I read the CES letter and I read a lot, pretty much everything you've shared mostly. I mean, really. And my faith has been changed and traumatized and I'm still engaging in the church. But when I go to the temple, it's amazing to me you brought this up. Because when I go, that's what I see there is whether you choose a stay or whether you choose to go. This is the pinnacle supposedly of, like Mormon experience. And we're being taught that there's something beyond the system. And whether you stay in the church or out, the point is there at the heights of our teaching that you should break out.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] And nobody gets it, nobody sees it. Super powerful. Super powerful.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:13] Can I just say, I mean, this is. This is. We laugh about it, but this to me is sacred. I mean, this is to me. I do love my Mormonism. I still choose to stay attached to Mormonism in many symbolic and very spiritual ways for me. And I just, I say it kind of like a joke, but we are the only Christian religion, and I know because I live amongst evangelicals that honors Eve. I mean, Eve is really talked about horrifically in any other church you go to that has a Christian influence. And I, you know, and even in the implications of mixed faith marriages, right, Like Adam and Eve are a mixed faith marriage.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:54] And the implication that she's not going against her stake president or her bishop, she's going. She's like, she's directly relating to God and we honor her choice. And it's also the principles of obedience for versus self authority and personal revelation. And these things are just. It's like, I feel like it's the best that we have in Mormonism to offer is what we least talk and teach about.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:19] And that to me is the tragedy of Mormon current doctrine and theology is that we're focusing on everything other than what we really have that's beautiful to offer the world. So that's just my reaction to this.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] And honestly, that's why someone like Denver Snuffer has a lot of traction, because there is a. There is a lot of richness in Mormonism. There's a lot of goodness and truth and wisdom. And that's one of the bizarre things for me is now rediscovering value in the scriptures and in Mormon ritual for the first time as someone who's no longer really actively engaged in it.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] But that's what so all Denver Snuffer

John Dehlin [01:02:57] does is hold the Book of Mormon up to the Mormon Church and say, you're not living what the Book of Mormon itself says. And there's going to be an unending audience of people that are interested in that message because it's true. The church is not living up to its highest.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] And I'm not here to criticize the church. That may be the only critical thing

John Dehlin [01:03:14] we say this whole weekend.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] It's just that in all I don't

John Dehlin [01:03:18] live up to my highest standards. So this isn't even like an attack.

John Dehlin [01:03:20] It's just who can live up to the highest standards.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] But. But there is so much beauty to be mined even in Mormonism, if you're willing to see it. And that's all I'm trying to say. Yes.

Guest 1 [01:03:31] So I'd like to explore. I mean, I really liked your analogy of. Because I'm in the same situation where I've taken of the fruit basically and kind of learned these things. And I've offered that to my wife and you know, I'm convinced she will never leave the church. And so my head's at where I'm kind of grappling with. I love her, she's the love of my life. And how do I do this? You know, do I fake it for the rest of my life? Because I don't want. What's most important to me is my wife, you know, not the church or being out of the church. So I want to explore how do I grapple with that and sort of be authentic in myself and everything, but still honor her, respect her and is there space for me to do that?

John Dehlin [01:04:15] You've come to the right retreat.

Guest 2 [01:04:21] I just want to take a moment and exist in what they've shared and how much that has value to me as someone who has left it completely. Since we're talking about the movies, this is a little bit of a spoiler alert for the movie Smallfoot. But one of my all time favorite moments in the movie Smallfoot was after his father realized that what his father dedicated his life to wasn't what it was. His father still permanenced in that community, but gave his full support to his son as his son made his journey. And that community still had value for his father. And it was just such a beautiful moment between him and his father that really, really stuck with me.

Courage to Transition and Richard Rohr's Two Halves of Life

Guest 2 [01:04:58] And so even as someone who has decided that 100% the church isn't something that works for me. The courage that people experience where they can still exist in that value and do what they can can to help the church be a better place. I'm not good enough to stay in it and fight for people inside of it.

Guest 2 [01:05:19] And I just really respect people who can still exist and live with that value. And it's a beautiful thing to me. And that you're here supporting your wife and you support other people who have gone in a different journey than they have. It's just a beautiful thing to me.

Guest 4 [01:05:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] So if you want an incredible healing experience, rewatch these movies or the Broadway musical from the context of a faith crisis, and you'll gain all sorts of inspiration and wisdom. Consider that that's kind of its own cinematic therapeutic intervention.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] So, thank you. This is wonderful. Now we're going to start really hitting

John Dehlin [01:06:01] the heart of the matter.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] So what is it all about then? Right, so we. We now know where we are. We've been cast out of the garden.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] We're in the lone and dreary world.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] How do we make sense of this?

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Okay, there's an amazing concept that comes

John Dehlin [01:06:19] from an author named Richard Rohr, who is a Catholic.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] I think

John Dehlin [01:06:27] it's a Catholic tradition. Franciscan monk. Is that right?

Natasha Helfer [01:06:31] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Who really values the intellectual life. And he's basically the faith crisis guru of Catholicism. And he wrote this book called Falling Upward. I, you know, I recommend it. I read it just a few months ago. Really, really good book. But he introduces this concept of two halves of life. And again, I'm trying to speak to the notion that you are not victims. You are actually developmentally progressing in your

John Dehlin [01:07:02] life, in your faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:07:05] And he roots his concept of the two halves of life in the writings

John Dehlin [01:07:10] of Carl Jung, who's one of the

John Dehlin [01:07:13] founders of modern psychology. So Carl Jung was a. Was a partner of. Help me out of. No, Freud. So Freud and Jung collaborated, and together they did a lot of cool stuff. But this is the writings of Carl Jung. Okay, this is like early 20th century, okay, early 1900s. One cannot live the afternoon of life according to the program of life's morning. For what was great in the morning will be of little importance in the evening. And what in the morning was true will at evening become a lie. Isn't that interesting? This guy's not Mormon. Okay. I think he was atheist. Right. This is a hundred years ago,

John Dehlin [01:08:07] and

John Dehlin [01:08:07] yet he's describing this concept that we're discussing now. He's basically just describing you. So these are the words of Richard

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Rohr talking about Carl Jung.

John Dehlin [01:08:17] Richard Rohr goes on to say it was Carl Jung who first popularized the

John Dehlin [01:08:21] phrase the two halves of life to

John Dehlin [01:08:23] describe the two major tangents and tasks of any human life. The first half of life is spent building our sense of identity, importance, and security. Security, right. What I would call the false self and Freud might call the ego self. Jung emphasizes the importance and value of a healthy ego structure. But inevitably, you discover, often through failure or a significant loss, that your conscious self is not all of you, but only the acceptable you. You will find your real purpose and identity at a much deeper level than the positive image you present to the world. Isn't that interesting? Okay, Think of the first half of life as a container.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:22] And Richard Rohr is quoted as saying that Mormons do first half of life better than anybody else he knows.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] So a Catholic priest, secular Catholic priest, is saying Mormons are the best in the world. At first half of life, you're building. You're building the frame that you build the house around. You're building the foundation, which means your identity, your morality, your socioeconomic standing, your education. Right. Your family, like all of the foundations, so that you can arrive to adulthood not with some debilitating sti, not with some addiction, not with a bunch of children that don't have a parent. Right? Not with, you know, just like with. With an educator.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:07] Not that there's anything wrong with any of those things.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] But Mormonism gets you to adulthood on average, with a good education, a good sense of self, a good set of values, a strong identity. Think of that as a container, because you need a container to fill, right? And the first half of life is you building the container for then you to fill with the second half of your life.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:34] And I hope that this is the beginning of you starting to reframe some of the sentiments I've heard many of you express, which is, why was I duped? Why did I fall for this? Why did I spend so much time wasting my life? And it's really important to start creating a new story around the time you spent in Mormonism. Even if you no longer value that,

John Dehlin [01:10:57] you did not waste your life.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] You did not waste your life. You may have not been fully conscious

John Dehlin [01:11:04] about what was going on, but you were building the container for the second half of your life.

John Dehlin [01:11:11] Do you understand that?

John Dehlin [01:11:12] And I believe Mormonism does a pretty good job of helping you build that first container. Is there a hand? And then Karen?

Guest 2 [01:11:21] Yeah. I just want to say that Richard Rohr and this book is the reason why I feel Comfortable having my children and still go to church three Sundays a month. I mean, if it were completely up to me, they probably wouldn't go, but. But I do believe that a first half of life is necessary and the church does a good job of that. And if there's a way to work some nuance into that equation, all the better. But yeah, I just felt like I needed to say that, that it's not totally horrible to, to raise your kids in the church and to. So for people who mourn the fact that they might have raised their kids in the church or were raised in the church or currently are raising their kids in the church, there is a spiritual and practical purpose for that.

John Dehlin [01:12:06] Yeah, I like to say thank you. And Karen, is there another microphone?

Religion's Mixed Record on Human Happiness

John Dehlin [01:12:10] Karen's next. I like to say that, believe it

John Dehlin [01:12:13] or not, for you ex Mormons that

John Dehlin [01:12:15] are terrified that your kids are still

John Dehlin [01:12:17] being exposed to Mormonism, I have news for you. There are a lot worse things your kids can be exposed to than Mormonism. And one of the worst is nothing, right? But then think of all the other things, like there's a lot of good. Of course you have to inoculate and buffer the dangerous things.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] Do you think we're, do you think

John Dehlin [01:12:37] we are arguing that there aren't dangerous things in Mormonism?

John Dehlin [01:12:40] Like, you know, us, right, we acknowledge

John Dehlin [01:12:43] the danger, but having a structure and

John Dehlin [01:12:46] then the rest of the religious world that's non orthodox or fundamentalist has figured this out. Catholics and Presbyterians and Lutherans and Methodists, they get it. They don't care if it's true. They don't look at the Bible as literal. They go to church because it helps with whatever it helps with and they take what they value and they leave the rest. And I'm not arguing for religion, but I am arguing for religion providing a value.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] And I would just argue that if religion didn't provide a value, it would have fallen by the evolutionary wayside. But because it's still 80% of our world, it clearly must be providing some value. Karen.

Guest 2 [01:13:27] So I'm following that.

Guest 5 [01:13:29] When I was seven, I wanted to commit suicide because I knew I would never be good enough to make it back. My whole life has been a compromise in being a woman. I should have been a child psychologist. I should have been more than a mother. So to say that I was only building a container. My container was made very, very, very small. And it did not prepare me to be a 50 year old divorced woman whose husband left her because she left her faith. It did not prepare me for Where I am, it did steal my life.

Guest 5 [01:14:03] So I, speaking as a psychologist, both of you, you somehow came out, you were the rebellious ones, you were the ones that did things differently. I stayed in. I didn't even kiss someone until I was 19 because I was so afraid of who I was. And I got married at 20, having kissed five guys. I had a baby at 21, another baby at 22. So you cannot tell me that Mormonism prepared my life for where I am now. But this second part of my life, I'm going to show my kids how to do it.

Natasha Helfer [01:14:44] Just a minute. Just a minute. So before you go further, Karen, thank you so much for that. Another big thing that you'll hear me say all the time is yes. And I think everything that we're saying is yes. And I think we're coming from a perspective where, yeah, if it was Mormonism and then the ideal world, I would absolutely agree with you. But I know many, many women who come from many, many cultures and religions who also were very limited in their containers. And that's a human problem that we've had for millennia that we are just starting to address in our culture. And so when we say when we make room for Mormonism to not be that bad, we are just saying we are in a human dilemma.

Natasha Helfer [01:15:30] And there are cultures that do it better than us, and there are cultures that do it horrifically worse than us. I mean, I would have been stoned as a 15 year old in certain cultures because I had premarital sex, Right? So we're just trying to put it into perspective and we're trying to honor the good and absolutely recognize that the deep, deep harm.

Natasha Helfer [01:15:54] Just to give you a personal little story, I was once invited to church office buildings during the Mitt Romney campaign when they wanted prominent women, Mormon women's opinions on issues with women in the church. And what they really wanted were mouthpieces to be able to talk to the media.

Natasha Helfer [01:16:14] And I looked around the room and I said, and I asked each woman there, I said, did you, are you a PhD? You're a master's? I'm a master's. You're a PhD, you're a PhD. How many of you waited to have kids?

Natasha Helfer [01:16:27] You know, like, how many of you obeyed the law, right to have kids and not fulfill your careers? And all of us had waited to have children. All of us had prioritized our careers over the mother identity at great cost and guilt to each of us.

Natasha Helfer [01:16:43] And then I asked the church officials, why are you talking to us, the people who Disobeyed you. Why are you not having all the stay at home moms here who obeyed you? Why are you going to give us a voice when we didn't do what you told us to do? So I get it,

John Dehlin [01:17:06] And I'm truly

John Dehlin [01:17:07] horrified at the idea that what I'm saying, saying is invalidating to people's pain and suffering. And I do not mean to be invalidating. And I apologize that it in some way comes across that way. So I hold. I want to hold your pain and give it all the legitimacy and validity that it deserves. And not just yours, but the gay kid that was wants to kill himself, the intellectual who feels shamed, the people who masturbate or have premarital sex that are made to feel horrible. You know, the list, the list of atrocities or violence done to Mormons is literally endless. Right? And thank you for. Thank you for reminding us of that.

Natasha Helfer [01:17:56] And many of these are like, I'm saying, like, things that we're facing as a culture. I don't know how many of you have been following the toxic masculinity kind of papers that are coming out. Again, those are not coming out in Mormon circles. Those are coming out in American culture. Right. And the MeToo movement. And I mean, we're really kind of waking up as a culture to things that have been systemically and kind of institutionalized in our culture by puritanic upbringings. I mean, we were a country founded on Puritan, you know, coming into this world and lots of issues that when you look at the humankind race, I mean, we go back millennia on, so we're grappling with huge moments in the humankind dilemmas, for sure. And Mormonism has its own unique kind of brand to that, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] Yeah. All right,

John Dehlin [01:18:55] here's Carl Jung on the

John Dehlin [01:18:56] second half of life, the one that, Karen, you're ready to dominate,

John Dehlin [01:19:02] that we're

John Dehlin [01:19:02] all here to try and make sense of. Carl Jung writes, in the second half

John Dehlin [01:19:06] of life, the ego still has a

John Dehlin [01:19:09] place, but now in the service of the true self or soul. And this is what I think you were saying, Holly. Your inner inherent identity, your ego, is

John Dehlin [01:19:21] the container that holds you all together.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] So now its strength is an advantage. Somebody who can see their ego in this way is probably what we mean by a grounded person.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] So we are all justifiedly feeling or

John Dehlin [01:19:40] thinking or expressing things like, I've been lied to. I've been betrayed. It's a fraud. The church is a cult. The brethren are evil. Like, we could make an endless list of statements of outrage at what we've experienced. And they would all be valid probably on some level. And as Natasha likes to say, that's true. And there's something more sophisticated going on. My social science formula for religion is

John Dehlin [01:20:12] a theology is put together. A theology is a myth or a

John Dehlin [01:20:15] story, some type of myth or story or narrative. And the purpose of it, it has one purpose. What's the purpose of it? Make you feel good.

John Dehlin [01:20:27] At the end of the day, all those questions were in red. I chose that picture. I'm like, Google, find me an image of somebody suffering in a corner. You know what I mean? Because that's how you feel when you're facing the existential questions of life in

John Dehlin [01:20:44] that dark night of the soul. That's misery and suffering. Right?

John Dehlin [01:20:49] So what's the purpose of the narrative? What's the purpose of the theology? It's a story that makes you feel what? Good. It makes you feel good. Why does religion exist and thrive? Why do so many of your loved ones stay in it? Three words, it feels good. If you had to reduce religion to one product, it's the manufacturing of, like, oxytocin and serotonin in your brain. Religion, the choirs, the sermons, everything is designed in theory to make you feel good.

Guest 7 [01:21:33] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:21:34] All the studies that they're trying to convince you that you're all addicted to sex, well, the same thing happens with church, I guess. We're all addicted to sex and church.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] Sex and church.

Natasha Helfer [01:21:43] Awesome.

John Dehlin [01:21:47] So a simplified narrative of religion is it's a theology or a myth or

John Dehlin [01:21:53] a story that makes you feel good.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] Plus it's an organization that provides you with structure and rules and community to facilitate the lifestyle that will get you to feeling good. That's what it's about. That's what religion is. A narrative plus an organizational structure. And it's the best. It's the best system that humanity has developed so far to meet the needs of as many people as have needs. Right. And so is. Is. Is religion evil? Right, the theology. I would just say, is it evil to help people feel happier about their lives, Especially if the religious leaders actually believe the story. And my sense is Mormon leaders genuinely believe the story. They're not telling you a story that

John Dehlin [01:22:50] they don't believe themselves. There may be exceptions to that, but

John Dehlin [01:22:54] I've interacted with them. My brother has interacted with every member of the quorum of the 15, and he comes back and tells me they

John Dehlin [01:23:02] behave as if they really believe. And if you don't understand

John Dehlin [01:23:08] how they can believe, just look at yourself.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] How many months or Years ago when

John Dehlin [01:23:12] you believed they're like you were, they're you, but they haven't gone through what

John Dehlin [01:23:16] you've gone through yet. They're you having not gone through what you've gone through. Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] They believe, and so they're sharing a narrative that they sincerely believe, that they think, and that in actuality often does make people happy. And so the second thing is, is it evil to provide people with almost everything they need to have a healthy, happy, fulfilling life in a one stop shop?

Natasha Helfer [01:23:41] And remember, when we're talking about happy, we're not talking about just one simple feeling. There's oftentimes especially many of you have said there was something maybe, you know, yucky or something I doubted or something I wasn't quite sure about. But in the balance, it's still balanced out as more positive than negative for many. So it's not just black or white again, right? It's not happy or not happy. It's like mostly happy, happy years.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] Happier, happier, healthier, right? You have an identity, you have a morality, you have a community, you have friends, you have a, hopefully a happy marriage. Right? The questions of life have been resolved.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] And so in my view, maybe in our view, religion is simply humankind's attempt to explain and provide life meaning and

John Dehlin [01:24:29] provide an infrastructure to live a happy, healthy, fulfilling life for as many people as possible.

John Dehlin [01:24:35] And for those of you who want to just summarily condemn religion, you try and create a system that makes more people happy and healthy where you're on the line, you're on the line. And I've tried to create organizations that try to make as many people as healthy and happy as possible. It's freaking hard.

Natasha Helfer [01:24:54] It's a hot mess.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] It's a hot mess. To create any organization to fund, to not just create, but fund in a sustainable way an organization dedicated to making people healthy and happy.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] It's a, it's extremely hard.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] And if you don't believe me, try it, right? And then once you've done it, then you have the full right to look

John Dehlin [01:25:18] back and condemn religion summarily.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] Now, my point is not to make

John Dehlin [01:25:24] you feel good about religion.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] It's to help us do a shift

John Dehlin [01:25:27] in mindset to just understand better that

John Dehlin [01:25:31] maybe this wasn't some huge, complete and total catastrophe. Yes, there are catastrophic elements to it. Yes, there's harm that's been done. But religion, what if we were able to take a more compassionate view of religion being the best system that humankind

John Dehlin [01:25:48] has been able to come up with

John Dehlin [01:25:49] so far to successfully get as many

John Dehlin [01:25:52] People as possible through their first half of life.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] And the good news is you've graduated, right? You have graduated. You have all successfully graduated from the first half of your life. You should applaud right now. You should applaud yourself. Pat yourself on the back. You've made it through. You deserve a diploma. You deserve a cap and gown. You deserve a diploma. And only in this space will you be celebrated for the first time in your life for doing something incredibly significant.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:29] I want cake in a party.

Guest 1 [01:26:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] And sex.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:32] Right, and sex.

John Dehlin [01:26:33] Take everything. You deserve everything. This is huge. And I mean this sincerely. You have made a phenomenal accomplishment. Millions and billions of. Of people have gone their whole lives

John Dehlin [01:26:45] and have never achieved what you've achieved.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] They stayed in their first half of life and they never got out of it. You have done it.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] You graduated. Mehdi, we have a. We need a mic runner.

Guest 9 [01:27:00] I'm just wondering if we can acknowledge that religion is not an equal giver of happiness. That is that certain people have definitely gotten more happiness out of religion. Like white men. CIS heterosexual white men get more out of religion than any other group. And so I think that what part of what. That's what Karen was saying is that

John Dehlin [01:27:26] and our original people, some people are

Guest 9 [01:27:28] getting more out of religion than other people are getting out of it. And sometimes that does answer the question of, like, why certain people, like why the quorum of the 15 stays in. There are reasons that they are still invested in it because they are getting more out of it than others of us are getting out of it.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:46] Beautiful. How do you know who's getting the most out of an organization?

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Look at who's leading it, right? Old, white, straight men and their wives,

Natasha Helfer [01:28:02] because they are complicit as well. So this is where the feminist issue comes in, is that white women who benefit from the safety and the structure of their husbands, typically having a lot of power, are also usually equally invested.

Guest 4 [01:28:17] Yeah. I just wanted to add that we're talking about religion, just to add on the last few comments, like you mentioned, that it's the best humankind who has come up with. But to be fair, women would have never come up with any of the religions that have been available and are available on the earth because of what they have done. And so to me, when I look at religion, yes, it answers those questions.

Guest 4 [01:28:50] But if I were to define is the oldest, most successful form of human trafficking and it traffics in women and children, and because on the side, it happens to fill in holes that your. Your mind naturally craves is like saying we are letting.

Guest 4 [01:29:14] We're going to keep the pedophile priest around because he also provides meals to the homeless and sermons that make us feel great on Sunday. And so I'm having a hard time feeling like I want to congratulate religion. And I certainly do not want to be part of humankind that you speak of that is complicit in it and chosen.

John Dehlin [01:29:50] Do you know anything about us? I don't want to assume that you know anything about us. Do you know anything about, like what we do for a living and.

Guest 4 [01:29:56] Yes, I. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:58] Do you think that we don't agree with you? Do you think that we are saying something different than what you're saying? Do you think that we want to keep the pedophile priests around abusing kids? Is that what we stand for?

Guest 4 [01:30:09] I think what I have heard is that you still want to keep religion around.

John Dehlin [01:30:16] I don't think I said that. Did I, Did I say that? I don't think I said that.

Guest 4 [01:30:22] That. That it performs a function that is good for people. And in their first half of life.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] Do I say all people?

Guest 4 [01:30:33] Okay, well, let's subtract it. Half the population then, like, and even more when we subdivide the men.

John Dehlin [01:30:42] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:30:43] And so how does that even leave anything positive on the whole to say about it? Like, you know, I understand that. I understand why is it important that we sort of move on from the feeling like we wasted our lives. And I, and I appreciate, appreciate the attempt to have us sort of rewrite that story and see something good in it. But I don't want to do it at the expense of ignoring or pretending that the world couldn't possibly be better off without it. And I do feel like you have said that it serves, you know, when you say somebody come up with a better system, you know, I hear you saying this is as good as it gets until somebody does better. Which I think we can do better if we set women free. And in order to set women free, we need to get rid of the religions.

Guest 5 [01:31:48] Sweden's done it better.

Natasha Helfer [01:31:50] No religion.

Guest 5 [01:31:53] Sweden's done it better. No religion. They've done the whole thing. Absent of religion. Swedes. Sweden.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:01] Well, and let's.

Guest 5 [01:32:02] And they have serious happiness in Utah. We have the highest rate of antidepressant use. So if that's happiness, where. What is it on a pill.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:12] Yeah. So I think we don't want to be misunderstood, obviously, in all of this. I think what we are talking about is, is first of all like generalized humankind behavior. What's Currently happening actually as part of, again, a lot of these movements. I do think we're in an evolutionary state of moving differently.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:36] Is the highest group of people right now that's growing is the nones, the N o N E s. So the attack on organized religion is alive and well. Right. And why is that? Well, I think because we are evolutionary moving past some of these institutionalized organized values or framings that we once had. And that's due to a lot of movements, right? So the social justice movements, feminist movements, just lots of ways that many aspects of our world are moving forward. What's interesting when you look at the global perspective of that is that there's like a percentage of us that are moving so much forward than a whole other percentage of humankind that there's actually talk in social science about becoming two different types of species in humans.

Natasha Helfer [01:33:35] So this is what we're trying to say. We're really not talking about Mormonism, we're talking about human beings. We're talking about power differentials and how they've always existed, how institutions have always existed. How many of the issues that we find in Mormonism we're shocked to find in post Mormonism because human beings in many ways function tribally, function in ways that are unconscious or subconscious. And so we have, we have, I guess, enough experience to know to be careful with all or nothing thinking. And so we are just trying to say, look in our experience and we may be wrong.

Natasha Helfer [01:34:17] It's usually generally more helpful to you in your healing journey to make some level of peace of where you come from. Some level. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be an activist. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't reject the very harmful narratives of that we do have in our upbringings.

Natasha Helfer [01:34:35] But like when I work with abusive families, it usually doesn't work for me to try to convince a person that their family, even though they were toxic and abusive to them, were completely all bad. And in fact, the times I try to do that, they resist that.

Natasha Helfer [01:34:52] I also know it's not helpful when they come in thinking their family was all bad because they can't get beyond the anger and betrayal and they're paralyzed. So we have to do some healing work in making some level of peace with where we come from, understanding it from a framing that's larger than any one entity, which is the human dilemma.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:14] So that's, I think, what we're trying to get at. We're not trying to defend the many, many harmful ways that we also have been personally harmed that we sit with people every day with and have been tremendously harmed.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:27] We're just trying to give it a wider type of framing so that really, in the end, you can move forward in your healing more quickly and more effectively, because that's what we know seems to work after working with thousands of you.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] Yeah. Thank you.

Guest 4 [01:35:50] Yeah.

Acknowledging Religious Harm Without Rejecting Meaning

John Dehlin [01:35:53] If you think that I don't stand against the harm that religion has caused, and if you think that I don't believe that that harm should be systematically dismantled, and if you think that I don't see a better future for our civilization, I literally don't know what more I could do with my life to demonstrate that. So, Camille,

Guest 8 [01:36:32] I think we're all here. We all agree that we're here to gain intimacy in our relationships, in our extended families, many of whom are going to continue to choose religion. And again, this is kind of a follow up to my last question, but I don't see how we can emerge from here with this sort of attitude that religion is the opiate of the masses and that, you know, some of you have chosen it and we've graduated.

Guest 8 [01:36:59] I just don't. I want to come out not fuller, polarized, not further condescending to those who. Who choose faith and religion in their lives. I just think, given the direction that the country's going and the direction. The intimacy that I can say I want to emerge from that we can have that kind of black and white approach. So I do appreciate the emphasis, and I would even challenge you to go take it a step farther that, you know, it's still hints of condescension toward those who choose religion. And I'm with you. I agree, and I've made the argument, but I'm beginning to. It's almost like hearing myself reflected in some of you.

Guest 8 [01:37:42] I'm beginning to understand my husband's positions, which is, you know, I will smell. He will smell on me, that condescension, and so will my children. And I want to. I want to emerge respectful toward everybody's choices.

Natasha Helfer [01:38:01] Yeah. One thing that I just want to say really quickly about this slide still, if you can keep it there, I don't want to make the mistake that faith transition means we've graduated or that we're in second half of life type of developmental status. I think that black and whiteness is actually first stage of life status.

Guest 5 [01:38:18] So.

Natasha Helfer [01:38:18] And I think that there are people who stay Mormon or stay religious who do have wonderful second half of lives and have new insights and live their religion in ways that are very different, different than Their first half of life. Carolyn Pearson comes to mind. Right. Or people who just really Richard Rohr, even, you know, he still is very much identifies with his faith community and things of that nature. So by no means are we saying faith transitioners.

Guest 6 [01:38:46] Woo hoo.

Natasha Helfer [01:38:46] We've all made it to the next step. And religious folks, well, they're kind of still behind in the dark times. That is if anything, if we're failing, if we're giving off that message. So we really need to make room because one thing that we do want to be very clear about is that when you get caught up in that them they we, you're doing the same thing that you hate about where you come from. And so that's the really difficult piece. Like when I'm sitting in Sunday school going, I cannot believe how judgy these people are. And then I'm like, shit, I'm being judgy right? Then that's what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter what you believe. It matters how we process and how we can tolerate other people's beliefs who are different than us. And that's where true differentiation lies, which is a concept we'll talk about later in this retreat.

John Dehlin [01:39:49] Excellent. So what we're arguing, and again, maybe

John Dehlin [01:39:54] we're wrong, maybe we'll enhance these concepts even further. Certainly we will, because I change this every time. These are new slides. A lot of this Natasha has never seen before. I wrote some of this at 5:30 this morning.

John Dehlin [01:40:08] Religion played an important role in getting

John Dehlin [01:40:10] you to where you are now, which by global standards is not necessarily an awful place. Again, exceptions will exist. But if you look at the people in this room, we're in the 99th percentile of the world in terms of education level, in terms of socioeconomic status, in terms of privilege and opportunity.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] And it's impossible, it would be impossible

John Dehlin [01:40:37] to completely extricate the role of religion in where we all are. So enough of that.

The Faith Crisis as a Gift and Opportunity

John Dehlin [01:40:47] What we want to suggest to you

John Dehlin [01:40:48] as you're trying to frame your faith crisis is that having a faith crisis is in some sense a luxury, okay? It's a privilege.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] There are a lot of people that

John Dehlin [01:40:59] don't have the privilege of having a faith crisis, whether they're dependent on their beliefs or their church or their organization for their own mental health, for their own socioeconomic well being, for friends, for

John Dehlin [01:41:13] community, for raising kids. There are a lot of people that

John Dehlin [01:41:17] absolutely don't have the luxury of contemplating a faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:41:23] And so the gift, the ultimate gift of a faith crisis is literally the

John Dehlin [01:41:28] chance to Live the rest of your life as your authentic self, exactly as you wish. And that that is the gift. The rest of your life, you now have it to live exactly as you want to live. Yeah, we're almost there. Yep. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:49] So the thoughts that I had this

John Dehlin [01:41:51] morning at 5:30 were we can stay

John Dehlin [01:41:53] angry about the religious aspects of the

John Dehlin [01:41:54] first half of our lives or, and

John Dehlin [01:41:57] we can get stuck in that anger

John Dehlin [01:41:59] and we can make all our relationships

John Dehlin [01:42:01] toxic and we can further alienate our partners or our children or our parents or our community or ourselves, polarizing till the cows come home by waging war

John Dehlin [01:42:16] on anyone who disagrees with us. Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] Or we can learn maybe to see whatever we've been through with a measure of gratitude. Right. That somehow this is part of the plan of the human experience, and that

John Dehlin [01:42:32] it's an opportunity or a gift.

John Dehlin [01:42:35] And that's what we're proposing to you.

John Dehlin [01:42:38] That's why we named the podcast the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis.

Natasha Helfer [01:42:42] And again, not that anger is necessarily a bad thing to have, because it's very legitimate. Like the anger that I'm feeling from some of you is there for a real reason. How do we. How do we funnel that anger into ways like going to law school and becoming an advocate in ways that you can be influential in your life. Right. Or so how do we. Anger is a very motivating feeling. It's oftentimes the only feeling that will actually get us to move. And so there's purpose and anger, and yet how do we funnel it in ways that don't then paralyze you or destroy the relationships that matter the most to you?

John Dehlin [01:43:19] So what if this is part of the plan? What if a faith crisis is an

John Dehlin [01:43:24] unconscious part of the human experience? And to conclude kind of this session, what else does this mean? Going back to Eve and the Adam

John Dehlin [01:43:35] and Eve story, There are scriptures that actually suggest what we're trying to argue.

John Dehlin [01:43:43] So, Holy Bible, Book of John, chapter three. There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night and said unto him, rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God, for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, verily, verily I say unto you, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother, womb, mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto you, except a man be born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John Dehlin [01:44:23] That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

John Dehlin [01:44:25] That which is born of the spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] We have taken.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] We have interpreted this in scripture to mean in the Mormon context, you have to be baptized with water and then get the gift of the Holy Ghost. Evangelical Christians will say what this means. No, no, no. What this means is you have to have some born again experience where you go to the altar and do the altar call and profess your commitment to Jesus for the rest of your life. What if we were to reinterpret the scripture to mean we are all supposed to be born again? And what we are now doing, right now, what a faith crisis is doing,

John Dehlin [01:45:04] is the metaphorical delivering us through the

John Dehlin [01:45:07] birth canal into a new life, the second half of life. And then just to sort of play off of this idea of the kingdom

John Dehlin [01:45:17] of God, what did Jesus say the

John Dehlin [01:45:21] kingdom of God was? Where did he say the kingdom of God is located?

John Dehlin [01:45:27] Neither shall they say low here or low there.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] For behold, the kingdom of God is where within you. And that ties back, Holly, to what you were saying.

John Dehlin [01:45:37] And even to take it further, who did Jesus criticize? Was it the adulteress?

John Dehlin [01:45:44] Was it the person who was, you know, drinking beer? Or was it the person who had two sets of earrings? Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:51] Who did Jesus criticize? Who did he spend all of his time criticizing? Who was it? Hypocritical religious authority.

John Dehlin [01:46:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] So I'm just saying you could even

John Dehlin [01:46:04] reread the New Testament in new ways to find these principles there. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [01:46:10] We need a mic microphone.

Guest 4 [01:46:14] So like I mentioned before, when Lily started kind of entering into her second half of life, and it blew my world. And I was a fan, afraid and resistant and not always, like, great about it when she first was going through it. But one of the things that really helped me to view her journey as something beautiful and not something harmful was words from the New Testament. And it was Jesus's words about, you cannot put new wine into old bottles, and you beautiful new bottles for the new wine.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] Beautiful.

Guest 4 [01:46:43] And so I see this and that actually. And then I kind of launched on my own journey. But I think that's something everyone in this sort of, I guess you call it crisis, maybe helps to just remember that it is something beautiful and you will be judged by a lot of people as like, because I was in the position of judging. But to just have that Confidence that, like building a new bottle isn't like, oh, I'm going to join a new religion. It's like you are reconstructing yourself so that this new wine that life and God wants to give you can even be contained. And that's a really intense process.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] Isn't it beautiful to have the believing,

John Dehlin [01:47:31] church participating partner expressing that about his non believing, non participating spouse? I think that deserves a second round of applause.

Natasha Helfer [01:47:44] I just, I just want to take a minute to just up here, I can see some of you tearing up. I can see the emotion. So if we can just hold space for one another for just a minute and sit with the profound pain I think many of us are coming from and the profound anger and sadness, and yet I think I see a lot

Guest 8 [01:48:08] of

Natasha Helfer [01:48:10] at least how I interpret your. Emotion is a healing space that we are creating for one another here. And so I just want to honor that. And if we can just take like four deep breaths to do that, is that okay? I know sometimes emotion can feel embarrassing and it's just, it's the. To me, it's the. It's the river of healing. So honor that in yourself if you feel it.

Rebirth and the Second Half of Life

John Dehlin [01:48:57] So to conclude this presentation you are going through, we are making the argument that you're going through a rebirth just

John Dehlin [01:49:04] like Pinocchio, from a wooden child with

John Dehlin [01:49:08] strings to a real life soul. From a kite that's tied to a string held by someone else's hand to a bird that's capable of flying. What's the main difference between a kite and a bird? What's the main difference between a puppet and a boy? What? Natasha just helped us see feelings, right? This is messy.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] Why do I love the rebirth analogy

John Dehlin [01:49:45] even though I have no place to talk about it? Because I've never had a baby.

John Dehlin [01:49:49] I've watched four babies being born.

John Dehlin [01:49:52] I've talked to Margi, and I know that childbirth is bloody and excruciating. It's painful, it's messy, and I love. It's. It's a perfect. It seems like as close to a perfect analogy as we could find for what we're going through. And I've never even experienced that before, so you guys will have to tell me. Natasha, what do you think?

Natasha Helfer [01:50:18] Yes, I think it's pretty simple.

Guest 2 [01:50:18] Do you approve?

Natasha Helfer [01:50:19] Yes, I approve. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] Women, raise your. It's okay if you don't approve.

John Dehlin [01:50:24] Do any women feel like that's okay?

John Dehlin [01:50:28] So this is the end for me? The four great tasks of the second

John Dehlin [01:50:32] half of life are the following.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] Number one, how do we Successfully mourn

John Dehlin [01:50:39] and grieve the pain and the regrets of the first half of your life. And that's what we're, that's what we just experienced a struggle with in this room. Because it's, it's, it has been horrific for many of us, if not all of us. And for some, we can't imagine the horror that others have experienced. So we have to grieve, we have to be angry, we have to grieve it. And that's step one, grieve it. And we can do a whole session on grieving. If you go to the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, we have a couple hours on grief and the role of grief in a religious transition. That's step one to grieve it.

John Dehlin [01:51:24] Step two, figure out who you really are. Who are you? If you're not that, who are you? And that's its own journey, just to figure out who you are. Step three is how do you replace the comprehensive role that religion provided in

John Dehlin [01:51:44] your life as if it were a public school, right, where you just drop your kids off and they get educated.

John Dehlin [01:51:51] Right now you're shifting to a life of homeschool where you have to figure

John Dehlin [01:51:57] out your identity, you have to figure

John Dehlin [01:51:59] out your morality, you have to assemble your own set of friends, you have

John Dehlin [01:52:03] to assemble a social structure that you can engage with.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] You have to figure out what you

John Dehlin [01:52:08] think about death and the afterlife. And that's all on you individually because

John Dehlin [01:52:13] you don't have the benefit of an

John Dehlin [01:52:14] organization providing all that for you in a one stop shop experience.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] That's a lot of work. The final thing is you have to

John Dehlin [01:52:23] figure out how to navigate a more

John Dehlin [01:52:24] nuanced or secular life when you are

John Dehlin [01:52:28] surrounded by more orthodox believers. Because guess what? Not everybody is ever going to go through or has not yet gone through or maybe never will go through what you've been through.

John Dehlin [01:52:38] So how do we exist as Eve

John Dehlin [01:52:41] who's partaking of the fruit when metaphorical Adam is still in the garden?

John Dehlin [01:52:46] Because that's who we're married to, or that's who our parents are, or that's who our kids are, or that's who our friends are.

John Dehlin [01:52:52] That's who our community is.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] So how do we exist in a healthy way in a society when the majority of the population is still, you

John Dehlin [01:53:02] know, embracing in some way the mindset that we just left? Right? So that's the question that this presentation ends with. What do you want to become and what will you do with the gift?

John Dehlin [01:53:18] All right, that's it. Thank you.

Guest 3 [01:53:21] Thank you.

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