Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is January 15, 2024, and today we are super excited to be covering a really important topic that we've known about for years, but we haven't yet covered. Utah is known as sort of the national capital for what's called the troubled teen industry. And I think there's. There's a new Netflix documentary out called Hell Camp that I haven't seen yet, but I think it's about kind of these wilderness troubled teen camps in Utah. I think we plan on covering that episode later, but in the meantime, my dear friend Samantha Shelley from Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:52] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] You brought to me the story of Becky Loveless and her husband Alex. Thank you for doing that.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:02] Yeah, I think it's gonna be a

John Dehlin [00:01:03] great story and it's great to have you back on Mormon Stories. We have missed you.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:06] Yeah, I'm happy to be back and I'm glad you're covering the troubled teen industry currently.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] It's kind of a big deal.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:12] Paris Hilton's been waiting for you to cover this.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] She's next. Paris Hilton is tomorrow.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:17] Paris, we're ready.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Yeah. Samantha, you are a co host of Zelf on the Shelf podcast, and you also do kind of life coaching, is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:27] Yeah, mostly faith transitions coaching. Yeah, it's all under the life coaching umbrella. But yeah, we are on YouTube at self on the Shelf.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] All right, well, thanks again. It's great to have you. Why hast thou forsaken us? Don't be such a stranger.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:40] As I said, John, you've been slaying too hard to have me on recently.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Becky is a warrior for many reasons, but one is because she asked that we live stream this. So we are live streaming this story.

Becky Loveless [00:01:54] I'm going back.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] We welcome our live audience and we welcome our asynchronous audience. We welcome all audience, but we will be taking your comments and questions. We appreciate super chats, donations of whatever kind, because that's how. That's how we. We survive these days.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] So let's just jump into it. I do want to mention that we. We titled this as kind of as Becca's Troubled Teen Nightmare. The truth is this is a traditional, epic, you know, orthodox Mormon faith journey. It involves chewy row, it involves Ammon Bundy. It involves kind of prepperism and, you know, neo fundamentalist Mormonism. It's got a lot in it, a lot more than just the troubled teen stuff. So we'll get in. We'll Be covering that, but we'll be covering much more. We're going to try and do this in under four hours, but this will be an epic Mormon stories faith journey about someone who comes from, I would say, an ultra orthodox, almost fundamentalist Mormon family. This even includes a relocation to Jackson County, Missouri, in the story. Is that right?

Becky Loveless [00:03:09] Not for me personally.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Right.

Becky Loveless [00:03:11] But I tried.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Yeah. Yeah. So it's got a lot here. And. And also, Alex, we welcome you. Alex, you. I don't know, is it problematic to introduce you as. As Becky's husband? You're okay with that?

Alex Loveless [00:03:26] I think that's great.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Okay. Yeah. So Alex is her childhood sweetheart and her current husband. So thanks for joining us, Alex.

Alex Loveless [00:03:36] Yes, thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] Okay, so, Becky, before we begin, I always give people a chance to give any disclaimers or intentions that they want to share, because I imagine you've got believing family who. Who may not be thrilled that you're telling your story. So what intention would you like to start with before we jump in?

Becky Loveless [00:03:57] My intention is simply to tell my story as it is in this moment. I give myself permission to change. I give others permission to change and also want to give everyone else permission to tell their stories as they are in that moment. And so if someone hears something that's offensive to them or that they disagree with, I welcome that, and I'm totally fine with that. I think moving forward in my life is about progression and being able to see differences. And so that's why I want to share my story, because I think that people hopefully will be able to see those differences and fill that cognitive dissonance, maybe, and ask questions themselves and maybe give themselves permission to find their true selves in that moment.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Beautiful. And I'm guessing you do have strong feelings about these troubled teen centers or this troubled teen industry, right?

Becky Loveless [00:04:56] I sure do.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:04:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] That was part of your journey.

Becky Loveless [00:04:59] Yeah, that's definitely a part of my intention because that's part of my truth of where I am right now is that I've woken up to the fact that that place, regardless of whether it was physically abusive or not, it was abusive, and it continues to be for the kids who are currently there right now. The. The place that I went to is currently open for business.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] What's it called?

Becky Loveless [00:05:22] It's called Lifeline for Youth.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:05:25] Yep. And you can actually see it in commercials, in between general conferences if you're looking out for that.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Which means KSL or Deseret News or whatever would approve through accepting these types of ads because they wouldn't accept Mormon Stories ads if I don't think they would. No, no.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:43] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:05:44] But, yeah, there have been several general conferences that I've watched, and up comes the ad for Lifeline, and it just is like, oh, I don't want to see that.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] Yeah. And I. And I'm. And I guess we can just say as a disclaimer that this was your experience at Lifeline.

Becky Loveless [00:05:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] And there are other people who have had unhealthy experiences that we can include those links on YouTube.

Becky Loveless [00:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] But we're not trying to represent this as anything more than your experience and what you've learned from other people's experiences.

Becky Loveless [00:06:12] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Okay. All right. Well, well, Becky Loveless, where does your Mormon story begin?

Becky's Mormon Pioneer Family Background

Becky Loveless [00:06:18] Oh, it's so typical. Both my parents are. I mean, both lines of my parents are Mormon stock all the way back to Joseph Smith Times. We have our. Our famous stories of my great, great, great grandfather was the warden at the Masonic Temple that Joseph Smith attended. So always telling stories of our pioneer heritage and going to cemeteries to go. Like in Mount Pleasant, where they settled. That place. Yeah, definitely. Born and bred in the Mormon religion, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] So pioneer ancestry. And is that on both sides of your.

Becky Loveless [00:07:01] Both sides.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Both your parents?

Becky Loveless [00:07:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Okay. Where did your parents kind of meet and get married if you're.

Becky Loveless [00:07:07] They met in Pleasant Grove in high school.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] Okay. What county is that? That's south.

Becky Loveless [00:07:12] It's Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] Well, that's Utah County, Pleasant Grove.

Alex Loveless [00:07:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] Okay. So were they. Did they go to Pleasant Grove High School? Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:07:18] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Okay. And, you know, temp, Like. Like, mission, temple, marriage, any of that stuff?

Becky Loveless [00:07:25] No, my. My dad did not serve a mission, and they. They got married and then were sealed later in the temple. In Provo Temple.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Okay. Now, I. I'm not asking you to speculate, but in my Mormon brain, that means they probably either weren't active or didn't totally comply with, like, the law of chastity, which meant they had to get married with if they were members. That meant they would have had premarital sex and had gotten married civilly because they weren't, by Mormon standards, worthy. And that's not me shaming them. I think that might. I don't even know if that might play into their behavior with you later, so I'm calling that up.

Becky Loveless [00:08:05] I would guess that that definitely played into their intense need for that to not happen to their children.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:08:14] So, yeah, it was the latter, and that was something that my parents shared with me later on in life, that

John Dehlin [00:08:20] they were sexually active before marriage.

Becky Loveless [00:08:22] That was something that had happened and that they didn't want that to happen to me.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Got it. Okay. So they. So they got married civilly later, got sealed in the temple.

Becky Loveless [00:08:35] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] How many total kids did they have?

Becky Loveless [00:08:37] Seven. I'm the youngest of seven. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Dang. Okay. All right.

Becky Loveless [00:08:42] It's a party. Six girls, one boy.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Really?

Samantha Shelley [00:08:45] Absolutely.

Growing Up Mormon and Family Dynamics

Becky Loveless [00:08:45] Where's the boy in the hormones raging in the very middle.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] Oh, yeah, he's fourth.

Becky Loveless [00:08:51] He had three older sisters and three younger sisters, so he could not escape us.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Okay, and where. Where did y' all grow up?

Becky Loveless [00:09:00] Mostly Utah County. We lived in Mesa a few times. We moved a lot growing up. It was surprising if we stayed in one place for longer than a couple years, so. But mostly Utah county and Mesa. We never moved anywhere else.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] And what was your dad's profession? Did you say that?

Samantha Shelley [00:09:19] He was.

Becky Loveless [00:09:19] He was a businessman all growing up. I never knew what to answer when people would ask me that. He kind of was an entrepreneur, Businessman, dreamer.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:09:31] Yeah, very successful. And then not at some times, but we had our ups and downs as a family. I've. I've joked that we've literally been homeless, and then we've also lived in a 10,000 square foot home and had a jet. Like, I've seen both ends of the spectrum all growing up. And so it was. It was a. It was an adventurous childhood. We'll just put it that way.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] And then how Mormon was your family? What are your memories of your family's Mormonism through your eyes as the caboose?

Becky Loveless [00:10:04] Yeah. Yeah. It was our identity. I'll start with that. That was who we were as a family. We definitely did the no caffeine, no rated R movies, no dating before 16, no hanging out with members of the opposite sex until you were 14. No swearing, obviously. No coffee, no tea, no alcohol, no drugs. Church every Sunday. If we went on vacation and it happened to be over a Sunday, we would go to church. If it was in Barbados, like, it didn't matter. The For Strength of Youth pamphlet was something that we definitely adhere to.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] So which parts were the most stick out in your mind?

Becky Loveless [00:10:53] Dating. That was a big one. That was one that was often left on my pillow with it, like, opened up to the specific, like, dating page.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] And what did the pamphlet say?

Samantha Shelley [00:11:07] The.

Becky Loveless [00:11:07] The part that was most important, I think, was that there was no serious dating until you were ready for marriage. And so that was. So at 16, you weren't even allowed to go on a single date. We still had to group date when we were 16. That was kind of our family rule. It would, you know, there was some wiggle room here and there, but for the most part it was just, unless you're wanting to marry this person, you don't single out and go date one person ever until you're ready for marriage.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Okay, and how did that work with your older siblings? Were there siblings that. Were they all super obedient? Were there some that didn't obey?

Becky Loveless [00:11:52] Yeah, there, there were. Some were super. Exactly what you said. Some were super obedient and some not so much. And I have confirmed with my parents that some of the moves were because of that, some of our family moves across state lines or because a sister was getting too serious with a boyfriend and so we would uproot the family and move somewhere else.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:18] That's a bold action step. Like your parents were worried.

Becky Loveless [00:12:22] They were 100% doing everything they possibly could to protect us. And in their eyes, that was soul saving to them. So they would have done anything to protect us from something like that.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] So physically relocate if, if one of their children got too serious with a boy.

Becky Loveless [00:12:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Or girl, but boy.

Becky Loveless [00:12:42] Yeah. Essentially that had happened. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] Okay. I have to ask this. Like there's, there's, you know, no family's perfect, so there's always going to be challenges in a family, but there's these super Mormon families that generally are like really happy and funct and then there's like Mormon families that appear perfect, but they're super toxic and dysfunctional behind the scenes. Do you have a way to place your family along that spectrum without I guess, throwing your parents, your family under the bus?

Becky Loveless [00:13:15] No, I will say I had a wonderful, wonderful childhood. There was copious amounts of love in our family. We were very tight knit. There was definitely this era of you have to look perfect though, so the realness of emotion was not present in the family, if that makes sense. We all definitely were playing the part of there needs to not be contention in the home. So if you had an issue, you needed to stuff it down like that. You needed to be the peacemaker. If you have any kind of problematic emotions, you need to quell those. And so I think we all, we all lived a very joyful, happy life.

Becky Loveless [00:14:02] But as I've grown up and understood emotions just in general, we definitely were, you know, stuffing a lot of stuff under the rug just to save face, just to make sure that we didn't look like we had issues. But we're human and we had issues.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Did you generally in your wards have kind of a reputation As a certain type of family.

Becky Loveless [00:14:26] Yeah. Every time we'd move, it would be within, you know, six months to a year that my dad would get called to a bishopric. I remember as a child always wondering why he could never sit with us every place we moved. I would love that. Six months that he got to sit in the seat with us as a family. And then it was almost like I'd have to say goodbye to my dad because he would. He's. He gave everything for our family. And then what he had left, he gave to the church. And then it was almost like as individual relationships, there was nothing left. So it was providing financially for the family and it was being a good Mormon father. And he did a damn good job at that, I'll tell you that much. But it did feel a little bit like there was nothing left in the tank for personal relationships.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] So. For one on one.

Becky Loveless [00:15:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] So you don't have a lot of one on one memories with your dad?

Becky Loveless [00:15:32] I think the only reason I do is because they were so few and far between, but they are brandished into my mind the times that he would spend time with us.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] So, Alex, I can tell you're feeling some stuff. Do you wanna. Is there something you want to share? I don't mean to put you on the spot.

Alex Loveless [00:15:49] I don't know. I mean, I'm a father too, and

Samantha Shelley [00:15:53] so

Alex Loveless [00:15:55] it's difficult to. It's difficult to hear all these emotions and I've heard so much from my wife over all the years, and it's. It's just. There's just a lot of emotions in all of this. I love my wife more than anything and I love her parents, I love her family. But I think a lot of these discussions are important, but it's also. It's also difficult to. To talk about it. Yeah. So there's just a lot of emotions for me about all of it.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Well, thanks for being here. Thanks for your perspective. Yeah. All right, so I think I get a sense. So your childhood memories. Is there anything else you want to share about your childhood memories or do we start. Do we get into the teen years?

Becky Loveless [00:16:50] I think one of the things that will help express me, I guess, throughout this whole story is that I very much fell in the camp of I needed to be perfect, I needed to. It was my desire to have people notice me for having that special spirit about me. I would hear that phrase and I would hope so badly that like, I would maybe get called to like a young women's presidency or I would like just that I would be noticed that I would be able to be good enough to have that phrase said about me. So a lot of perfectionism as a child and needing to make sure that I was doing all the right things.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:36] Was that also hard having so many sisters? I just imagine there'll be a lot of comparison you would naturally do.

Becky Loveless [00:17:44] There was some of that. For the most part, we all really just loved each other. We did. But there were moments where a couple of us would clash and it would probably be linked to that. Just the idea that we needed to be the best and we needed to make sure that everyone knew that we were good and that we were doing the right things. And if something went awry, then it'd be like, no, no, no, don't do that. So.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:12] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [00:18:12] Which I think comes from that parenting style from, I guess it's called that boomer age. But just that parenting style of push emotions down. Kids are meant to be seen and not heard. You know, that kind of thing where I think that you don't want to cause a disruption in the community and the family and anything. So that's kind of the way they were taught back in that time to deal with emotions.

A Sister Sent to Lifeline Before Becky

John Dehlin [00:18:35] You mentioned in your outline, speaking of your sisters, that one of your sisters was sent to Lifeline before you.

Becky Loveless [00:18:41] Yeah, she was.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Is there anything you're comfortable sharing about that?

Becky Loveless [00:18:46] I'll tell you my perspective of it because it is her story. And that's something that if she wants to ever share with anyone, she's welcome to. But it was when I was about. I think I was 8, 8 or 9, and we did one of our famous random moves from a home that I absolutely loved. It was Provo Canyon. I don't know if you've ever heard of Springdale, but it was this beautiful up in the mountains, had a pond and trails we could go onto. We loved this home. Our whole family loved this home. And anything that was going wrong was never talked about. But we all noticed something was going wrong with one of my older sisters.

Becky Loveless [00:19:30] And just one day it was. We moved to a different home. And then all of a sudden my sister was not there. And Obviously as an 8 year old, I'm like, where's my sister? The next thing I knew, we were trekking up to Salt Lake to go to something called Open Meeting, where it's this big room and all of these families are on one side and you've got all the other troubled teens on this side.

Becky Loveless [00:20:01] And the only thing I could do was stand up with a microphone and I'm still so confused. I'm not sure what's going on. And all I could say was, I love you. And she was able to say I love you back. That was all we were allowed to say to each other. And it was just in this big room of people and. And for a long time, I didn't know why she was there because we just didn't talk about that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] So your parents didn't sit all the siblings down and say, no, Susie had to go away to get help?

Becky Loveless [00:20:31] To my memory, no. I really do remember kind of waking up and like, kind of like she's not at the breakfast table, like, where is she? And then having them expressed. I think what they said is, she's somewhere getting help and we're going to go and we're going to meet with her once a week. And so we did that for quite a while. She was there for almost. I think she was there for almost a year.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] A year, yeah. Now, given that these camps and centers are so prevalent in Utah, can you give our audience a sense? Not necessarily your sister or you, but just generally, when a Mormon family sends their teen to one of these centers, what is it usually about?

Becky Loveless [00:21:21] A lot of it is. It can be anything from experimenting with drugs, it can be being sexually active. It can be simply getting into too many fights at school. Anything that kind of rocks the boat. And the parents feel like they can't get a handle on their kids. They send them there and there's masturbation. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:21:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] So just masturbation or porn can.

Becky Loveless [00:21:51] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Okay, Yep.

Becky Loveless [00:21:52] Any. They would. They would call that sexually acting out.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:21:56] That was a phrase that was used that was all encompassing of anything like that.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:02] Why did you guys have to move if your sister was in that place for a year? What was the benefit?

Becky Loveless [00:22:07] I think there were relationships that she had as well that my parents were trying to possibly disconnect from. Again, nothing was really talked about, but from what I gathered, there was something going on. I know that the people who my sister was involved with lived nearby, so I think they need it. And we just moved. We moved from Provo Canyon, maybe 15 minutes away, up just right above Timphew High school. So only 15 minutes away. But I think my parents felt like they needed a fresh start or something or just to get out of that situation.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:48] I find that so interesting because if she's gone for a year, by the time she gets back, 15 minutes doesn't seem like it would make that much of a difference one way or the other. Did you have to change schools. We.

Becky Loveless [00:23:03] We technically did, but it was actually my. My parents put us in private schools a lot, but I think in that time, we were actually attending a public school, and then we ended up going back to the private school. So it didn't. Like, boundaries didn't matter.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:17] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:23:18] But, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Cool. Just from your sister's standpoint, I'm just trying to imagine, like, my high school. I loved my high school years. I'm trying to imagine, like, having all my friends being in basketball, like, being in student council, really into my grades, dating Renee Zellwego.

Becky Loveless [00:23:35] Just throw that one in there.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] And then just all of a sudden, my parents yank me out of all that and stick me somewhere for a year. All my friends are like, where's John? You know what I mean? Like, how disruptive that would be for me and how, like, odd that might be for all my peers.

Becky Loveless [00:23:51] Yeah. That's a very. That is the typical story of someone who gets sent to Lifeline. It is not by choice at all. With no consent. They're sometimes kidnapped in the middle of the night or they're tricked into coming, or. And you are not allowed any outside contact at all.

Becky Loveless [00:24:13] You cannot even access a pencil and a paper while you're in there. Like, you cannot. Like, the only way you're doing that is if you're writing what's called a moral inventory at the end of the day, which literally is just a story about how awful of a person you are and how you plan to change that.

Becky Loveless [00:24:31] And we had to do those every single night. But, yeah, that was very typical for kids to just up and leave their entire lives and have everything stripped away from them. And oftentimes they come out of these troubled teen centers more traumatized than they were when they went in.

Becky Loveless [00:24:55] But they play the game very well, and they make you think that they've been healed or changed or that it's fixed them, because that's how you had to get out. You had to convince everybody. And when you leave your life and your friends and everything behind, obviously, as a teenager, like, you were saying John, like, that was everything. That was everything. And you just wanted to do what you needed to to get back to feeling like you were a person.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] When you say kidnapped, first of all, you. You mean that literally, right?

Becky Loveless [00:25:30] Yeah, I. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] And did Lifeline kidnap people or did people.

Alex Loveless [00:25:35] Were.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Were people kidnapped to go into Lifeline specifically?

Becky Loveless [00:25:39] Yes, technically. There were stories that I heard from girlside that there were literally two men that came to their house in the middle of the night or early early in the morning, but they would wake them up from sleep and put them in a car and just bring them to Lifeline, and they were dropped off and explained the rules, and those kids have no choice in the matter. And I think that's. That's my biggest issue is I do not think that you can heal or that you can change unless you want to. And these kids are literally just being forced into these situations without a say in it. And a lot of them have never even seen a therapist.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Hmm.

Becky Loveless [00:26:25] So.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] So it'd be parents that would be giving consent or approval for their kid to be kidnapped from their bed, Basically.

Becky Loveless [00:26:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] And you saw that yourself firsthand.

Becky Loveless [00:26:35] I heard stories.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Right, yeah. You talk to people.

Becky Loveless [00:26:37] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] Firsthand. Who had that happen to them?

Becky Loveless [00:26:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:41] That's what happened to Paris Hilton. And she said they put a bag over her head, and she hadn't. She just thought she was being kidnapped because she's obviously, like, a famous heiress, Right. She had no idea that it was anything to do with her parents.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] And she came to Utah, right?

Becky Loveless [00:26:54] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:54] Her school was like Provo.

Becky Loveless [00:26:56] The Provo Canyon School for Girls.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [00:26:59] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:26:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] So anything you want to say about how this worked out for your sister and what the family dynamics were like with your sister's residence at Lifeline?

Becky Loveless [00:27:10] I know that she feels positively about her experience, and I think that's all I'll say about that. I know that she has struggled through life, and she's a beautiful person, and I wouldn't. For me, I wouldn't claim that Lifeline did that to her. She was a beautiful person before she went in, and she's just a beautiful person now. So that's my feeling on it.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] So she might come on Mormon. If she were to come on Mormon stories, she would say she had a great experience.

Becky Loveless [00:27:46] I wouldn't say she would say it was a great experience. It's harsh, it's rough, it's difficult. But a lot of kids go in there feeling like they deserve it. They feel like that's their punishment for the wrongs that they've done. And in order to change, that's something that's necessary. So. And they do drill that into you, that your best thinking got you here. So you need to work the program, or you'll be one of three things. You'll be dead, you'll be in prison, or if by some miraculous event you're able to work the program, you'll be fine. So she happened to be one of those that ended up being all right.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] But would she say she was glad she went through it, do you think?

Becky Loveless [00:28:35] I think she would say that.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Okay, that's fine.

Becky Loveless [00:28:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] And. And I have friends that are in the trouble teen industry, like a psychiatrist friend and another one who does these wilderness camps. And they tell me that their experience is that these are ethical, healthy organizations. So, like, we have to leave space for there being some organizations that do this in a healthy way and some people who report good experiences. So let's.

Becky Loveless [00:29:01] Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of weight put on that, though, where I really do truly believe that there is a better way that doesn't cause so much trauma.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:12] And I feel like that would be such a formative experience. Like, it seems normal that a lot of kids would find a lot of meaning in it because they're having to suffer so much to get through it. And then there's like that sense of pride, you know, that your sins are washed away by it or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] You made mom and dad happy.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Things like that.

Becky Loveless [00:29:29] And they for sure tell you that they've saved you.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:32] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:29:32] While you're there, you'd want to believe

Samantha Shelley [00:29:34] in your own redemption if you really bought into the. The ethos.

Becky Loveless [00:29:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Okay. So your sister comes back. Any other important dynamics in your family before your own Troubled. I'll say that in air quotes. Troubled teen years begin?

Becky Loveless [00:29:51] Not that I can think of. Okay, that's pretty good.

Early Dating and Adolescent Experiences

Samantha Shelley [00:29:53] We should definitely touch on your first boyfriend at 11. Oh. Cause I feel like that is a cute little story that gives insight into you.

Becky Loveless [00:29:59] Oh. You know, I was just so young and naive and it was just funny. But you know how back in those days a boy would ask you out and I didn't know what that meant. And here's this boy who asked me. I'm like, sure, you're cute. And we end up going on a field trip. And he tried to hold my hand and I was like, oh, I am not that kind of girl. And so I broke up with him the very next day.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:24] You had to.

Becky Loveless [00:30:25] You were kind of.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:26] No, I was pure. Going straight for the hand. Hold on. The coaching, my goodness. Absolutely not.

Becky Loveless [00:30:31] Definitely not something that I was gonna touch with a ten foot pole.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] Okay. Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:30:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] What happened next in the story?

Becky Loveless [00:30:44] I think that stuck with me for a long time. Like, it was. It was clear that that was something that was expected of me was to stay away from boys because they only want one thing and that will ruin you. So it was my job to make sure that I was protecting myself and that I was following all of the rules. Exactly. Because that's how I would get through life unscathed.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] So how in the world did you end up in. In Lifeline?

Becky Loveless [00:31:12] Well, are we going there now?

Samantha Shelley [00:31:14] Wait, we have.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Wherever you want to go. Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:17] Because I'm like, John won't bring this up, but in your outline you talked about how you developed early. And I know that that's such a thing for Mormon women or girls.

Becky Loveless [00:31:28] Absolutely. It was. That was something that I absolutely tried to hide. I remember for a while wearing. Trying to wear baggier shirts.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] So we're talking about what. Just for the.

Becky Loveless [00:31:42] Oh, I was. I developed early for those.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Listen. For those. Your chest.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:47] I don't know what that means.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Okay, just making sure.

Becky Loveless [00:31:50] But it was something that I was so ashamed of. I was so like. Cause none of. And I. And I think it was because none of my friends looked that way. And I remember I would get weird attention from boys sometimes and it was just not okay. And so I would do everything I could to just hide myself and to. I literally would walk around with my shoulders hunched on purpose because that was not an okay thing to draw attention to at all. And I was just being in my own body. At 11 year old me trying to hide something that's just natural was just. It's just sad to look back on and think like it really. It was an everyday thing. When I would get ready in the morning, it was button it up all the way, make sure it's one size too big and hunt your shoulders like those. That was my checklist.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:44] It's sad because the whole Mormon approach is to try and steer kids away from being sexual. But then like in doing that, you're sexualizing these kids like you are 11 holding a boy's hand. You're like extrapolating to a sexual place with that which is like so, you know, a handhold is so innocent. And like that was a time in life where that could have just been fun, pure and sweet. But in your mind you're like, I'm not that type of girl. I'm not a slut. And it's like, why is an 11 year old worried she's a slut? Like, right. It's just insane.

Becky Loveless [00:33:13] Well, and it's that thing that they, they put in your head that it's, it's a slippery slope. Like one thing will lead to another and it can go pretty fast and.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:21] And then just imagining being a child like 11 and like developing and then. And then you have been already sexualized before that even happens. So Then by the time that happens, you have all these stories and like so much baggage.

Becky Loveless [00:33:35] Yeah, Already.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Okay. I'm sorry that happened. And I think it's pretty common.

Becky Loveless [00:33:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:33:43] I hope it changes. We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Okay, so. Yeah. What comes next?

Mormon Purity Culture and Sexual Shame

Becky Loveless [00:33:53] Well, we moved back to Utah. We had been living in Arizona at the time and I had a new group of friends there. And I was going to a Mormon private school at the time, so I didn't really know anyone in the area. So I was going through my ward friends and happened to meet this guy.

Becky Loveless [00:34:16] And that would be Alex. I was 13 at the time. Like I had just kind of met him, but I knew it wasn't supposed to date yet, so I just kind of set it on the back burner for a while.

Becky Loveless [00:34:31] But I turned 14. And it's kind of funny, but we decided, me and my sisters, because I told them I had a crush on Alex and they were like, you should go for it. And I was like, I'm allowed to.

Becky Loveless [00:34:48] And it was just, it's a funny moment that I. That was the moment that like, I almost had permission. And so we ended up dating from the get go. I remember, I think I was talking to one of my sisters at the breakfast table and I said something about holding hands with. I don't even. I think it was with you.

Becky Loveless [00:35:09] And I just remember my mom kind of like shot me this look of like, oh, no you didn't. And I knew at that moment I was like, this is not something that I talk with my mother about.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:23] So

Becky Loveless [00:35:26] we, from the very beginning, it was mostly a secret. And then when it kind of came out to my parents that we were dating at 14 and 15, it was a. Kay, this needs to stop.

Alex Loveless [00:35:41] It started for a while that it was okay because it was kind of a first thing for her. Becky and I had and have an incredible connection and we had that at a young age. And this is hard for me to talk about because it's so easy to downplay young emotions and those feelings that can happen. I was the kind of kid that didn't. I wasn't interested in dating and kissing a bunch of girls. That was never really my. My goal. And when she finally got my attention, we connected very deeply and we were important to each other. So for the first while, I don't remember there being a massive issue with her, with her family, it was once it got past, I don't know, six or seven month mark, something like that is when it started to become.

Becky Loveless [00:36:43] Yeah, once my parents were like, oh, this is not just a fling. This is for real. And that's so weird saying about a 14 and 15 year old, but whatever it happened. And look where we are now. But we, and I, I was sitting there thinking I'm doing so good because I made him wait a year and three months to even kiss me. Like I was like, I'm gonna do this the right way. I'm going to make sure that we're good and we're pure and we're clean and we get married in the temple. I'll send him on his mission. Like I'm gonna do all the things.

Alex Loveless [00:37:17] Well, we were both okay with that.

Becky Loveless [00:37:18] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [00:37:19] And that was. We honestly, that's what, that's what's tough about the story is we were, we love being with each other. And like she said, for a year and three months we didn't even kiss. Which is, which is funny. It's, it's funny talking about this stuff, but we just like being with each other. And when the, when, when the problems arose was when we were all of a sudden restricted to be with each other, to see with each other. And that's when we started sneaking around. That's when you parked the car.

Becky Loveless [00:37:51] Yeah. Because my. Like I said, and I hope everyone understands that this is not a dig on my parents. They were doing what they thought was, let me say, the best thing for us.

Alex Loveless [00:38:03] That's why it's. One reason I'm so emotional is I. We have kids. I have a beautiful 13 year old daughter and. Sorry. I would do anything for her, to protect her emotionally, physically, anything. And so. And I've told her parents this, that I, I completely understand their emotions and all of it. I mean, Becky and I were, we're young and we were dumb and we were obsessive over each other. That's a reality. It's not something I'm really ashamed of. And so if they saw our relationship and me as a threat, then, then I understand that. And so that's why, again, why this can be so emotional for me. But

Becky Loveless [00:38:47] I think the tragedy lies within the fact that for my parents it was sexual. Sin is a sin. Next to murder.

Alex Loveless [00:38:59] Yes.

Becky Loveless [00:39:00] And to have that weight on their shoulders, to feel like they were put in charge of protecting me from that type of sin. They, like I said they would, they would do anything. And if that didn't exist in their headspace, I wonder what life would be like. I mean.

Alex Loveless [00:39:21] Right.

Becky Loveless [00:39:21] And for lots of people.

Alex Loveless [00:39:23] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I've talked to multiple people about the church believing that. And I'm well aware that many members don't. Don't believe that wouldn't do. Go to these lengths to stop their child from committing a sexual sin. But a lot of people just don't even. They don't believe that. That has been taught in the church, and it has.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Do you want to. Just for the Never Mormons out there, do you have memories of being taught that doctrine? And if so, can you just share a little bit about your memories around that?

Becky Loveless [00:39:56] I definitely had the chewed gum talk.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Explain that.

Becky Loveless [00:39:59] That was. We would have a leader come in, and they would stick a piece of gum in their mouth, and then they'd have someone come up and ask for a piece of gum, and they would offer the one that was not chewed, and then they would take the one out of their mouth that was chewed and say, which one would you pick? And the unchewed piece of gum was someone who had never had sex before marriage, and the chewed piece of gum was someone who had.

Alex Loveless [00:40:24] And that may work for some people that, let's say, never commit a sexual sin.

Becky Loveless [00:40:29] Yeah. But for me, who would do?

Alex Loveless [00:40:31] The people that do.

Becky Loveless [00:40:34] I'm a chewed piece of gum. No one's gonna want me.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:37] Even though at like, a year and three months of just, like, wholesome, young connection.

Becky Loveless [00:40:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:42] It's, like, really sad that there was any heaviness added to that. Like, it's, like, developmentally appropriate to be obsessive. And it's, like, sad knowing that. I mean, I guess there's a happy ending, but, you know.

Becky Loveless [00:40:54] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:54] It sounds so wholesome.

Alex Loveless [00:40:56] I still have. I don't want to say anger, but I have frustration about that because

John Dehlin [00:41:04] to

Alex Loveless [00:41:05] start out, it was so wonderful. It was. Everything I wanted was to have that connection. And like I said, her and I have this connection that is. I can't even describe it. And to find that was really incredible for both of us. And to have that be ruined was frustrating.

Becky Loveless [00:41:24] It was demonized.

Alex Loveless [00:41:25] But like I said, I have to keep emphasizing that I understand it. I cannot not have sympathy for parents out there that don't see it from our perspective.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] And.

Alex Loveless [00:41:34] And me being a young parent. Yeah, I completely understand it.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:39] Well, like you said.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] Well, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:41] But just what you said about, like, it's the. It's a systemic issue. You know, it's like the belief was installed in them. And also, you could imagine if they had to wait to go to the temple. I imagine that was quite traumatizing. Absolutely speculating. So that they. They are coming from this place of, like, obviously Wanting to do right by you.

Becky Loveless [00:41:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:59] But it's just really sad that the culture would. Would demonize such an innocent.

Becky Loveless [00:42:03] Yeah, I agree.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:04] And yeah, I think there are just rare. It's not that common for, like, people to, like, have a connection that really does feel like a soulmate connection. And it really seems like you guys did have that.

Becky Loveless [00:42:16] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:16] And saw that in each other so soon.

Becky Loveless [00:42:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:19] It's like, that's something that should just be so special.

Alex Loveless [00:42:22] And it was. And we have great memories of that. And. And I don't know if it's important or not, but, like, going back to put some perspective on this. My child, Becky and I are complete opposites, like, almost in every way. The way we were raised was completely different. I was raised in the church as well, but the emphasis wasn't there.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:43] I was gonna say. Were your parents more relaxed about this?

Alex Loveless [00:42:46] Very much so. I think they understood more that we. I think, you know, they're beginnings were similar to her parents beginnings and that they dated really young and had my sister really, really young and. But I think they understood maybe more that there's not a whole lot you can do to control young hormonal teenagers.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] So. So you. The. The chewed gum metaphor speaks to damage. Is there anything any of you can talk about speaking about sin next to murder or, you know, other. Other than the chewed gum analogy?

Becky Loveless [00:43:23] Okay. For me, for me personally, that was. If you. If you imagine a heavenly father and you imagine that he's watching everything you're doing. Sexual sin to me was the most embarrassing, the most disappointing thing you could do in the eyes of your heavenly father. So for me, that was the weight that it held was that I can't even fathom wanting to kill somebody.

Becky Loveless [00:43:52] So putting sexual sin just right underneath that and having. Having this confused, like. But I really like this guy. And like, I'm. I'm having feelings about this guy, and that's supposed to be like me having feelings about murder. Like, having to conflate the two in any way, shape, or form was just so odd to me. But I did it and I made sure that. I told myself that it was as, like. I mean, not as bad as. But right underneath something like murdering someone or having feelings about murdering someone. So it was. For me, it was even deeper. It was even just the feelings of desiring that or wanting a physical connection with somebody. That was something that a loving heavenly father would see and be disappointed in me big time.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:41] Did you feel like you disappointed God when you kissed each other after you.

Becky Loveless [00:44:47] I sure did. I Actually went and talked to my bishop. Cause I felt so. I. Yeah. And I don't know if we want to get into that at this point, but that was. That was an intensely embarrassing end.

Alex Loveless [00:45:03] And if I remember right, I think we kissed right before you were 16 and the goal was to wait until you were 16. And I think that was a. A big deal. And I remember the guilt that was connected with that.

Becky Loveless [00:45:13] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:14] When really that was so impressive. And you guys deserved I praise for that. Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:45:18] Thank you.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:19] Sounded like you really tried.

Becky Loveless [00:45:20] We did. And honestly, I went through that whole time feeling like really feeling proud of myself. Like, of course we wanted to kiss each other, but we just didn't.

Alex Loveless [00:45:30] I remember that as well. Everybody being your family, being very frustrated with our relationship, understandably, but being frustrated, I guess, with our relationship. But us going, we're not doing anything wrong.

Becky Loveless [00:45:41] Yeah. We just really like each other and want to be with each other.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:43] And you're basically romantic friends at that point.

Becky Loveless [00:45:46] Like we were cuddle buddies for sure.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Okay. Okay. So that was just your view that you were deeply disappointing your heavenly father?

Becky Loveless [00:45:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:58] Yeah. And did your bishop confirm that kind of thinking?

Becky Loveless [00:46:03] I had to not take the sacrament for. I think it was two weeks.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Oh, no, this was after which where in the timeline?

Becky Loveless [00:46:12] This is after it was. It was a make out.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:15] It's a make out.

Becky Loveless [00:46:16] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] I mean, so you're how old? You're.

Becky Loveless [00:46:19] I was 15.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:46:20] Almost 16.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] And you guys made out.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:22] Yes.

Becky Loveless [00:46:23] And for me, because I was like, oh, this is that slippery slope they were talking about. I have to get right with God. And the way that I do that is I go talk to this priesthood holder who apparently has some special keys to unlock the door for me to be able to step back on the slippery slope so I don't fall all the way down to hell. Like, that was what went through my head. And so it was like, I gotta do this. I really don't want to, but I gotta do this. And I remember, I think I had my mom drop me off and she. She didn't ask any questions. But it did seem like that was the moment that everything turned around.

Alex Loveless [00:47:00] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:47:00] Like they got really intense about us ever being together, how we were together,

Alex Loveless [00:47:07] making sure with people, making sure there was a pillow in between us.

Becky Loveless [00:47:10] Yeah. We had a rule that if we were sitting down, there had to be a whole pillow between us. But he wasn't even allowed at the house. Like at one point I wasn't allowed at his house. We had. I mean, my parents had well, you

Alex Loveless [00:47:24] weren't allowed by your parents at my house.

Becky Loveless [00:47:25] Right, yes. To be clear, my parents had some very strict rules after the bishop's interview that I went to.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:34] Did you two go to school together?

Becky Loveless [00:47:36] I was at Mormon private school, so he was at Tim View.

Alex Loveless [00:47:40] I was at a public school. Yeah. She did seminary, so we would. We would meet at the end of school at Temp View.

Becky Loveless [00:47:47] So, yeah, she.

Alex Loveless [00:47:49] I mean, just a funny story, when I was. When I was baptized, there's a picture I have of.

Becky Loveless [00:47:54] Oh, I forgot this.

Alex Loveless [00:47:55] Me. Her dad was in the bishopric at. At our ward when she lived in Springdale, and I lived in the ward. And it's. My dad was. My dad was there, my grandpa, my great uncle, and her dad as the bishop, remember? And it was on her birthday and she remembers her dad being gone on her birthday.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:11] I forgot that story.

Alex Loveless [00:48:12] So that. So, you know, our we. It goes back quite a ways.

Becky Loveless [00:48:16] Yeah. Yep.

Alex Loveless [00:48:17] Sorry.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Really quickly, just to drive this point home for people who might want to think we're exaggerating, I'm going to read from Spencer BE Kimball, Mormon prophet Spencer B. Kimball's book, the Miracle of Forgiveness, which was sold for decades as the book. If you go to the bishop and you've sinned, you get the miracle of forgiveness. And then we're taught that our prophets or presidents speak to God, speak for God, our prophets, seers and revelators. Spencer B. Kimmel's Miracle Forgiveness says in chapter five, quote, there are sins which approach the unforgivable ones in seriousness, but seem to come in the category of the forgivable.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] These are the diabolical crimes of sexual impurity. So that's again the Mormon prophet. And he's, you know, this is the book that Bishop's Standard gave all members regarding purity, repentance, forgiveness, etc. And then I'll just read from the Book of Mormon in Alma, chapter 39, really quickly. And this is not all. My son, thou didst do that which was grievous unto me, for thou didst forsake the ministry and did go over into the land of Saron, among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

John Dehlin [00:49:36] So apparently Alma's son went and had sexual relations with Isabel, goes on to say, yea, she did steal away the hearts of many. So Isabel, she's like one of four women mentioned in the entire Book of Mormon representation.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:53] A win is a win. It's still a woman.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] So it's Isabel. It wasn't the son that stole Isabel's heart. It's Isabel that stole Alma's son's heart. She did steal away the hearts of the many. But this was no excuse for thee, my son. You're still in trouble. Thou should have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted. And here's the money. Quote. Verse 5, Alma 39. 5. Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord. Yea, the most abominable above all sins, save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost. So it's right there. Mormon scripture. Book of Mormon. Sexual transgression next to the shedding of innocent blood and severity. Mormon scripture.

Becky Loveless [00:50:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:50:41] That's absolutely what I was taught. And I knew that there was no question in my mind. That wasn't a fuzzy gray line for me. That was absolute truth.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] And that's what drives your parents. That's what drives these troubled teen centers. It's. It's the. I mean, Jody Hildebrandt, Jesse Hildebrandt, all so much of this troubled, toxic Mormon culture. The eight passengers, Ruby, Frankie. So much of what drives all of that in 2024 is this toxic teachings of sexual impurity and is next to murder. It's what. It's what brings. It's what grew. These troubled teen.

Becky Loveless [00:51:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Facilities in Utah. Is this desperation to make sure your kids never have sex?

Becky Loveless [00:51:25] Yeah. To put it lightly. They bank on that teaching. Troubled teen centers bank on that teaching.

John Dehlin [00:51:33] They monetize.

Becky Loveless [00:51:33] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:51:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Fear and terrifying youth, basically.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:39] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:51:39] Scared parents. Terrifying youth will do a lot of crazy things to protect their children.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Okay.

Becky Loveless [00:51:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Okay. So you go to the bishop to repent for making out with Alex.

Confessing to the Bishop and Repentance Pressure

Becky Loveless [00:51:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] How'd that go?

Becky Loveless [00:51:50] I was asked a lot of inappropriate questions, and it was definitely my fault. Like, there was. It was.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] What types of questions would a bishop ask in those situations?

Becky Loveless [00:52:01] It's, like, even uncomfortable for me to, like, say it.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] But first of all, are you. Are. Is there someone else with you or are you alone?

Becky Loveless [00:52:07] I'm alone. So you're at 15 with my bishop, who happens to be my sister's friend's dad. So I know him, and I've been, you know, at his house and so closed door. Yes. This really awkward. And it was during a weekday, and I, like, I remember when my mom pulled up, there was nobody else in the parking lot either. Like, so we go in, and I'm already just, like, unbelievably terrified and embarrassed and, like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, even Just saying what I had done, let alone having to answer the questions that he asked.

Becky Loveless [00:52:45] It was, was there touching over the clothes, under the clothes? What were you wearing? Like, were you trying to be provocative? Were you trying to get him to want you? Like, all of these weird questions that, like, and if you were, how were you doing that? And have you thought about doing that before that happened?

Becky Loveless [00:53:05] Just, it was very. It was so much more in depth than I ever thought it would be. And I was already terrified going into it. I thought I would go in, say what I did. He'd say, this is what you need to do to repent. Heavenly Father loves you, and that's it. But it was a half an hour of just uncomfortable, like, and it was for sure my fault.

Becky Loveless [00:53:30] And I needed to be the one that protected my virtue. And that from now on, like, if I do it again, that means that I didn't repent. I remember that phrase. I remember him telling me that I wasn't able to have the sacrament for two weeks. And I was super smart and was like, I don't feel good. So I ended up not going to church for the next week. And then, because for those who aren't

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Mormon, what's that like to be a teenager in sacrament meeting, sitting with your family? The water and the bread gets passed by in a tray.

Becky Loveless [00:54:05] Everybody knows what you did. There's not a whole lot of sinning that a teenager can do. That doesn't have to do with that either. Drugs or sex. Like, if you don't take the sacrament, it's not because you said the F word. Like, it's one of those things.

Alex Loveless [00:54:20] What are you as a teenager? You're completely self conscious. And to have to be in that situation and not. And everybody's just looking at you. You're with your family, you're with everybody. That's important to you right there.

Becky Loveless [00:54:31] The first week got away with it because I pretended I was sick, but I couldn't be sick for two weeks, so I had to go the second week. And it happened to be one of our peers that handed me the sacrament and I had to pass it down. And I was like, well, now he knows.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] And then Mormons can gossip, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:54:49] Oh yeah, adults. Like, it's further sexualizing these children because these adults have awareness that like, oh, this, this girl did something sexual. Like, there's like no world where that is appropriate, you know, for like stranger adults in your ward to know what a child has been doing.

Alex Loveless [00:55:05] Yeah, it's the incredible guilt that is. That goes along with all of is sickening.

Becky Loveless [00:55:12] And this was just for making out?

Samantha Shelley [00:55:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [00:55:15] At 15, after a year, almost a year and a half of a relationship with the same guy, which you don't

Samantha Shelley [00:55:20] get any credit for. Like, not that you even should have had to have done that, but it's like you do one thing wrong, and then suddenly all this shame is heaped upon you. Never mind that. Wholesome 15 months.

Becky Loveless [00:55:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Okay. And so how did that leave you feeling in your life?

Becky Loveless [00:55:38] Well, because I was such a good Mormon girl, I had a very strengthened resolve to not make out with him again. But that lasted like a week.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] Okay, really quick, Alex. Alex, did you get the same treatment with your bishop or was it different?

Alex Loveless [00:55:51] I don't remember going to the bishop to talk about making out. I mean, not again, not to get into it, but I had a very different upbringing. It wasn't as serious for me. I went to church every week of my life, never complained. It was fine. It was great. But a lot of my guilt. One lied with, I guess, sexual sin. But two was that I know that she felt incredibly guilty about it, which was difficult for me. And so, no, I didn't. I had great bishops growing up. I think it can be a lot different for men versus women in the church. And I didn't have that same. Same experience as her.

John Dehlin [00:56:30] There's this weird situation where the most honest get published. The worst. And I'm not saying you were dishonest.

Alex Loveless [00:56:36] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:56:36] You could argue. You were just smart.

Alex Loveless [00:56:37] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] Or savvy or sophisticated. But like, sometimes our church, the. The ones who just hide it and lie, they kind of have a better experience. But the ones who are more conscientious, more honest, more scrupulous, they're kind of tormented. Right, Right.

Becky Loveless [00:56:53] And funny enough, that definitely translates over to troubled teen centers, and we can get to that later.

Alex Loveless [00:56:59] But there were. There were plenty of things that I talked to my bishop about. I mean, there was. There was plenty of times that I'm like, well, I'm not going to talk to bishop now because I'm going to go make out with her tonight. So there were plenty of things that I didn't admit to right away, but there were things. But I had, for the most part, the leadership and my ward were really good men that understood and were caring about it. I mean, obviously I felt guilty because that's what the church teaches, but they. They did. They did care about me. So.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] So there is a leadership or a bishop roulette element to this, but I do think it's probably discoverable that women are held to a different standard with their bishops. Samantha, you're nodding your head.

Becky Loveless [00:57:41] Why? I just.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:43] I think there's, like, just so many different factors that go into it. But even just the way that girls as young as 15 have been sexualized by adult men in Mormonism, I mean, the founder and all the subsequent leaders for ages, like, literally married girls that age. So there's already, like, that precedent for them to be, like, viewing you sexually, not to, like, put anything on your bishop that I don't know about. I'm not implying anything, but just even the fact that you were, like, developed, which is that you're inherently seen as more of a, like, a slutty woman in Mormonism. I feel like just for having a big chest a lot of the time, like, a lot of my byu, Idaho friends would say that. That they just felt, like, inherently, like, more sexual just because they had big boobs.

Becky Loveless [00:58:25] We had to protect ourselves more.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:27] Yeah. Like, for some reason there's a. Yeah, there's a different standard. So there's just all these things playing into it. And again, it's a child, like, talking to a grown man.

Alex Loveless [00:58:37] And just as a. As a note, that was something that was really difficult for me when our kids were starting to get to the age of going and talking to the bishop over sins. All of a sudden that hit me. It never was a problem with me before thinking about that. I never thought of it as a problem as a kid going, oh, it's one on one. And I never had any issues with my bishops.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:55] But.

Alex Loveless [00:58:56] But knowing that, that it just all of a sudden it was like, whoa, that doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:03] And Bishop roulette is such a thing. But even the questions that you said that you were asked, I'm like, the fact that a grown man would feel entitled to ask a child those questions about their sexual experience shows how much, like, a child's sexuality has already been, like, given over to this organization and to these men in power before they're even, like, old enough to understand it.

Becky Loveless [00:59:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:23] I've also heard, like, of BYU athletes where the girl who has sex with the BYU male BYU athlete gets kicked out of byu, but the male athlete doesn't get kicked at a byu or a situation of adultery where two married, you know, two married people have sex with each other. The. The woman gets excommunicated, but the man doesn't. So I. I have heard of a disparity of. Of justice. And so I don't know if that is Applies in your case, but.

Alex Loveless [00:59:54] Yeah, but I don't think we really compared a whole lot our experiences that way. I think they were just so different, and I don't remember.

Becky Loveless [01:00:01] I know for sure I put it on myself.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:00:04] I know that. That was. It was. It was my job to keep us sexually pure, and if we messed up, it was my fault.

Alex Loveless [01:00:11] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:00:11] So.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] Okay. All right.

Becky Loveless [01:00:13] Not from him. Like, he didn't tell me that.

Alex Loveless [01:00:15] Right. No, I. We were. We were young, so. Yeah, I wanted to respect that, but we were young, and we were very attracted to each other, and that's the reality. I mean, I'm not talking about something that's not.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [01:00:27] Not known. It's just what it is. And that was very difficult. And then, you know. And you have the guilt.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] Yeah. Okay, so you said a week later, y' all were kissing again, so.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Okay.

Becky Loveless [01:00:36] Yeah.

Teen Years, Relationships, and Loss of Control

John Dehlin [01:00:36] So let's keep going with the story.

Becky Loveless [01:00:38] So at that time was when. I believe it was when we started talking about me graduating early from high school and going off to college. That was when that first kind of got brought up by your parents, or. Yeah, at that time. Just a little funny side story. We were.

Becky Loveless [01:00:59] I was very much into musical theater and singing, and there was a play at Tim Few that I wrangled him into doing with me so we could spend time together. Because at that time, it had been explicitly said we were not allowed to see each other at all. So I came up with this idea of, like, well, if we're in a play together, like, we have to be able to see each other. We have to go to practice. So we ended up being in the play together.

Becky Loveless [01:01:29] I believe it was my mother that came, and kind of. She was just checking in on me, and I was apparently sitting on his lap, and that was a huge no, no. So she contacted the director and had the director kick me out of the play.

Becky Loveless [01:01:48] So it was very serious. Like, it was. It was in every aspect of my. My life. Just the fingers of keeping me sexually pure were everywhere. And even in situations like that where, I mean, I was just at a play practice, and I happened to be sitting on his lap, and that was a step too far, so I got kicked out. And then it was pretty soon after that that I.

Becky Loveless [01:02:13] To this day, I still don't even know how this happened, but I had no plans to graduate early. But then all of a sudden, the principal was talking to me about it and was like, do you want to just go to college now? Like, there's this really great college back in Virginia and my parents were talking to me about. I'm like, yeah, I'd love to graduate early. I couldn't grow up fast enough as a child. I wanted to be grown up so bad.

Becky Loveless [01:02:40] So this idea of going to college was awesome, but then it was in Virginia, and I was like, oh, that means I'm leaving this guy, which I don't really like, but it was definitely pushed on me. And I graduated at 15 and went off to college in Virginia with my sister and my brother and my aunt and uncle. They. They were part of the faculty of that college.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Is this that Southern Southern Virginia University?

Becky Loveless [01:03:08] The very one.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] Okay. And this is like. Some Mormons set that up as, like, a BYU of the east, absolute acquired by the church, but it. It operates as, like, a Mormon standards. Yeah. So you went there at 15?

Becky Loveless [01:03:21] I did.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] That's crazy.

Becky Loveless [01:03:23] Yeah, it was really weird.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Like, if your parents want you to remain sexually pure, how does it make sense to send you to college at 15 across the country?

Samantha Shelley [01:03:33] Also, didn't you want to push back because you wouldn't want to leave Alex or.

Alex Loveless [01:03:36] Yeah, I. I think that. Well, to. That, I think we both. I. I remember kind of going like, maybe we ought to let this happen to kind of appease things because they were so against it. And I think, again, that's what they were so fixated on, us being a part of her finding someone different

John Dehlin [01:03:57] or

Alex Loveless [01:03:58] dating other people besides just me. I was a good kid. I really was.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:04] Yeah, you were.

Alex Loveless [01:04:05] I mean, we had an obsession with each other, but. But I was a good kid. I didn't do drugs. I didn't do anything wrong. I got good grades. I was a good kid. But they were fixated on. Our relationship was bad. Which, again, is hard to blame them for because we were very, very fixated on each other. But I think that was. It didn't really matter. It was just the idea that pushing.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Get her away from you.

Alex Loveless [01:04:27] That was important physically.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] Okay, so you go to Virginia. Then what happens?

Becky Loveless [01:04:31] Yeah, I go to college. That was a unique experience because, I mean, it's. It's the BYU of the East. And so, of course, everyone's looking for their eternal companion. And when people would ask me to go on dates, I'd be like, I'm sorry, I can't date. I'm only 15.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:47] They'd be like, what?

Becky Loveless [01:04:51] And, yeah, there were. I met some interesting characters there. And it was definitely. It was. It was odd to me that again, like you said, it was odd to me that my parents would send me there because those were people who were interested in getting married and if they were trying to keep me young and pure and whatever, why would they stick me into a place where everyone's looking for their eternal companion, that they want to marry? And in that space where that's in their mind too, like they're ready for that next step in life. And I had situations that were uncomfortable for me. Just, I was not. I didn't. I loved the school there. I, I'm a big. I love learning. I loved going to college. I loved that aspect of it. But the whole social aspect was just weird because.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Because Mormon missionaries, if they do it right, like I, like I did it. You, you're a virgin, you leave at 18 or 19 on your mission, you serve two years. By the, by the time you're 20, 21, have never had sex and you're told by your mission president, your number one goal, number one, two, three and four goals are to get married immediately.

Becky Loveless [01:06:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] As soon as possible. And you also want to have sex.

Becky Loveless [01:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] And so there are all these kind of thirsty, hungry male Mormon missionaries on the prowl, trying to find their eternal companion with a little, with a 15 year old girl. There were, you know, but I.

Becky Loveless [01:06:17] Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:18] Don't you feel like as a Mormon girl, I mean, it's not necessarily terrible if you marry a return missionary and you're like 16, 17, 18, I don't know. Versus, like if you would have stopped him going on a mission.

Becky Loveless [01:06:32] Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:32] That would have been like scandal.

Becky Loveless [01:06:34] That, that kind of shows up later in the story.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Okay, but so what, what happens at Virginia?

Becky Loveless [01:06:39] So I was only there for one semester. I really enjoyed my time there, minus the social aspect. I ended up going to efy@svu right after my first semester of college, which was weird.

John Dehlin [01:06:50] That's like a high school summer youth campus, especially for youth.

Becky Loveless [01:06:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] To indoctrinate Mormon youth, basically.

Becky Loveless [01:06:55] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:56] Right.

Becky Loveless [01:06:57] And I remember specifically coming home from Virginia and it almost felt like my parents first question of me was like, how's your relationship with Alex? And I think they were a bit deflated to hear that we were still fine.

Alex Loveless [01:07:14] Like, we were, we talked the whole time as she was talking.

Becky Loveless [01:07:16] We talked. I got like a phone card. I don't know, you could put like minutes on your card back in the day. And I would sit out on the little balcony outside and we would talk and it was just, it was, I

Alex Loveless [01:07:30] mean, didn't stop anything.

Becky Loveless [01:07:31] Yeah, didn't stop anything. So as far as our emotional connection,

Samantha Shelley [01:07:34] because your connection wasn't just this physical. No, like, yeah, yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:07:39] It was so much deeper than that. And that was what was. I think the most difficult thing was that that, to me, doesn't exist in Mormon vernacular. Having a connection between a man and a woman, a male, female, that is something deeper than just sex. It almost feels like that doesn't exist. And I want. I want it so badly for people to just acknowledge that there was something between us that was deeper and more meaningful, but that was never acknowledged. It was always like, are you having sex? Are you making out? If you're together too much, you're gonna end up doing that. So that's not okay. We don't care if you're really happy with this guy and he's your best friend and you just want to be

John Dehlin [01:08:21] with him and talk to him and he treats you.

Becky Loveless [01:08:23] Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I don't know many guys who would sit and date someone for a year and three months and not get anything out of it, you know, except love.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:35] Soulmate shit.

Becky Loveless [01:08:36] Love exists.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] Yeah. So they're disappointed. Y' all are still, you know, in a relationship after your semester.

Becky Loveless [01:08:44] And then they really. So it wasn't anymore. Just don't date him. It was, we need you to date

Alex Loveless [01:08:51] other people, or you have to go on two dates before you can.

Becky Loveless [01:08:55] Then go on before you can see Alex.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:56] That one.

Becky Loveless [01:08:57] So I was. I was just dating people, and I got into a few relationships, and I realized in those relationships, I was like, that's the guy for me. That's who I want.

Alex Loveless [01:09:15] And I remember almost believing her in the sense that when she would get these relationships, she would. Cause she was fighting that. Wanting to please her parents, but also wanting to be with me. But for some reason, it would always come back to, we are right for each other. And those other relationships were damaging in a lot of ways.

Becky Loveless [01:09:38] Yeah, there was a lot of things that I won't go into here, but just a lot of situations that.

Alex Loveless [01:09:44] That never needed to happen.

Becky Loveless [01:09:46] Never needed to happen, but they did. And, yeah, it's difficult.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Okay.

Becky Loveless [01:09:55] So we did that for a while, and then, I mean. And there were some good relationships in between. I don't mean to say that all of those relationships were awful and bad. Just going back on what you were saying, there was a time when I did date a returned missionary, and I was 17 at the time, and my parents were totally fine if I wanted to marry him. They were fine with that. And he had even talked to me about, like, here's the plan for us, and what temple would you want to get married in and started kind of going down that route. And that's when I was like, hold on.

Becky Loveless [01:10:38] I don't want to marry you. Like, I'm just dating you so I can get back with this guy. Oh, that's bad. But. But that's really what it was. I. I mean, these were. These were wonderful people. They weren't awful, mean people, but they just weren't my person.

Samantha Shelley [01:10:52] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:10:53] But I was forced into these relationships and. And needing to appease my parents and.

Alex Loveless [01:10:58] But that. But that's. That's understated how much she wanted to. I mean, her parents are such good people. I mean, her mom is an absolute angel and to. I mean, she's a beautiful singer. She's a pianist. She does all these things. And her whole life, up until me, she's pleased her parents and she's all these great things, and then this comes along. And so for her to all of a sudden not please her parents, and I am that reason, it's completely understandable that she's in that complete conflict of, if I just get rid of this, then it. Then it can go back to the way it was. So. Yeah.

How Becky Was Sent to Lifeline

John Dehlin [01:11:41] So tell us how you end up at Lifeline.

Becky Loveless [01:11:45] So by that time, I think I had dated other people, and I realized that this was. This was something more. And I was ready to just be with Alex.

Alex Loveless [01:11:57] She was 17, I was 18.

Becky Loveless [01:11:58] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [01:11:59] And like you said, we were just at that point, we're like, we're done with this.

Becky Loveless [01:12:03] Yeah. I was in college. I had a job.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] Where'd you go when you came back?

Becky Loveless [01:12:07] Uvsc.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] Okay.

Becky Loveless [01:12:08] Uvu. Uvsc? Yeah. So I had completed a year of college, and I really was just, like, ready to kind of move on with my life and move forward. And we were still dating, and we were still sneaking around, and because we couldn't. We couldn't land at anyone's house because I don't know how. But my parents would call me if I was at a house and he was there. They would call me and say, who are you with? And I would lie. And I'd be like, so? And so. And this other person, they're like, is Alex there? And I'd say, no. And they'd say, we know he's there and you need to come home.

Becky Loveless [01:12:44] And without fail, every time. And I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I know that they had recruited some people close to me to spy on me, I guess, and did it in the guise of. It's the most loving thing you can do for her.

Becky Loveless [01:13:04] So we were in parked cars a lot. And you know where that takes two young people in love. So that also took me down a guilt path like no other. I remember just despising myself, like, it again, it was my fault.

Becky Loveless [01:13:28] I had let both of us down. And for a while, like, we. We. We tried to stop doing that so we could, like, just like, well, that was a mistake. Don't do it again. But that's not the way it went.

Becky Loveless [01:13:46] And it finally got to the point where I was like, hey, we have options one and two here. We can not physically ever be with each other, or we can get married. Those were the only two options in my mind.

Becky Loveless [01:14:02] So because we could not be having sex and be okay in the eyes of God at 17 and 18, that was an unmarried. So we decided that we wanted to get married. And this was in April of 2005.

Alex Loveless [01:14:22] And I think, if I remember right, it was this point we both decided to let our parents individually know that we were sexually active.

Becky Loveless [01:14:29] Yep. Because that was part of the repentance process. I wanted to take us through the repentance process, get married civilly, and then in a year from that point, when we were pure enough for God to accept us into his holy temple, then we could go and get sealed in the temple. So that was kind of my plan. And I had no idea it was gonna go down the way it went down.

Alex Loveless [01:14:59] Her parents were very, very. They didn't accept it very well.

Becky Loveless [01:15:04] No.

Alex Loveless [01:15:05] We went to my house to let my parents know. I walked in first and let my parents know Becky was outside in the car crying. And it's funny that it could be this emotional this far down the road. And my dad came out, picked Becky up out of the. Carried her in the house and let her know it was gonna be okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:24] And.

Alex Loveless [01:15:27] And then a few days later.

Becky Loveless [01:15:32] Yeah, well, so I had told. I had told my parents that we had been having sex, and I told them that we wanted to talk to the bishop, and we had a plan. And I mean. I mean, I was definitely trying to convince them it was going to be okay. I was like, I've got a year of college under my belt. I've got a good job. Like, I know I love him, and I know he loves me, and I know this is going to work out. Like, there's no doubt in my mind. And I also understand that we need to get sealed in a temple.

Becky Loveless [01:16:05] Like, I. I was definitely in that mode of, we want to do this the right way. We've messed up, we want to fix it, and we need your help. And we're going to go talk to the bishop, and we're going to make sure that from this point on, we're doing things the right way. So that was on a Sunday. And I remember the next day,

Samantha Shelley [01:16:30] it

Becky Loveless [01:16:30] was just a lot of, like, uncomfortableness around my family. And so I think that's kind of. We just avoided each other for that day. And then the next day, I'd gone out. I think I went out to dinner with you or something, and I was like, I think we're good. Like, I think they're gonna be okay with this. And he was like, are you sure they're not, like, planning something? And I'm like, I don't think so. I think we're in the clear. And, oh, I forgot to mention the. The. The part that he was worried about them planning something. They had told me that they

Becky Loveless [01:17:06] wanted to take me on a little getaway, like a vacation, so we could talk, so we could get things sorted out and they could really have a chance to figure all of this out. And so they had told me that they had booked a trip to Vegas for us.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:25] The perfect place to unravel yourself.

Becky Loveless [01:17:29] And I bought it hook, line and sinker.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:32] Did your mind not go back to what happened with your sister? Or were you just like, it'll be different.

Becky Loveless [01:17:36] Not at all. And I think a lot of that was because I wasn't really told why she was there. I didn't. And I knew it was so. I had never done drugs. I'd never copped out of school. I'd never. Like, I had really good grades. I was.

Alex Loveless [01:17:50] It was us. It was only us.

Becky Loveless [01:17:52] I was. Besides our relationship, I was a very successful young lady. Like, I didn't feel like I was that big of a disappointment to have to have something that intense happen to me. So I packed my bags, and that night before, he's like, are you sure? And I had never. I, I. There was nowhere in my mind that that was even a possibility that they were sending me somewhere or taking me somewhere or whatever. So

John Dehlin [01:18:25] you packed your bags thinking you were going to Vegas with your parents?

Becky Loveless [01:18:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] Because they told you that?

Becky Loveless [01:18:29] Yes. So I get in the car that morning, and I remember I hadn't done my makeup yet, so I was kind of just doing my makeup and.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:46] Sorry.

Becky Loveless [01:18:46] We pass the exit to the airport, and I remember kind of like, asking, where are we going? What's happening? Like, where are we going? And I had. My two sisters were on either side of me. We were in the back row, and My mom and my dad were in the front row of the car, front seat of the car, and no one said anything.

Becky Loveless [01:19:10] And they just kept driving. And it was starting to come back to me. Like, I know this road. I remember hating this road because this is the road that took me to go see my sister. And every time I saw her there, she seemed miserable.

Becky Loveless [01:19:37] And never in a million years would I have thought that I was going to be put in a place like that. And I. At that moment, when I realized what was happening, I just lost it and just started begging my parents, like, please don't do this. Like, I knew. I knew that I was about to be abandoned.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:04] I knew that I was about to

Becky Loveless [01:20:06] be left in a place that

Samantha Shelley [01:20:11] I

Becky Loveless [01:20:12] know is harsh and tough and awful. And they just kept driving and didn't say a word. Between all of my sobbing and my crying and screaming and begging, didn't say a word. And probably 10 minutes later, we arrive at Lifeline. And I remember

Samantha Shelley [01:20:37] my.

Becky Loveless [01:20:40] I. I somehow had gotten my phone, and I was trying to call him because I knew the other thing was that he was not gonna know where I was.

Alex Loveless [01:20:50] Flip phone.

Becky Loveless [01:20:51] Yeah, it was a flip phone. And that ended up getting busted in half because my sister was pulling so hard on one end, I was pulling so hard on the other end, broke the phone in half and could no longer call him to just at least, like, warn him and tell him, I promise you, I didn't leave you. Like, this was not my choice

Samantha Shelley [01:21:15] because

Becky Loveless [01:21:15] I knew that's what they were gonna tell him. And the next thing I know, there are two people. I don't even know if they were girls or boys. I was. Because I was off in another world of just desperation.

Becky Loveless [01:21:35] And they grabbed me by the arms and literally just dragged me into this place, And they put me in a room and tell me to take off my shoes, wipe off my makeup, pull my hair up, and I'm no longer allowed to speak.

Becky Loveless [01:21:57] They asked me if I'd like to say goodbye to my parents, and I just said no, because I could not believe. I could not believe that they would have done what they did to me to leave me in a place like this because of what I had done, that I had come clean to them, that I had been asking them for help, that I wanted to do it the right way, but that wasn't good enough. It was simply the fact that I had done what I had done.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] So in their minds, you had committed the sin next to murder in Mormonism.

Becky Loveless [01:22:41] Yes. And that there was no way that this could be a good relationship anymore. So, Yeah, the next thing I know is I'm not allowed to stand up without someone physically holding onto my shoulder. I'm not allowed to speak.

Becky Loveless [01:23:03] I'm not allowed to look at people. I have my shoes taken away. I'm not allowed to go to the bathroom when I need to. I'm not allowed to take medicine if I need it. What they do is they take you. They take you in front of. What they have is called. It's called girl side and guy side.

Becky Loveless [01:23:25] And for 12 hours a day, you do something called group. And it literally is just girl side, guy side. And then there's two stools up in front and. Or sometimes I think it was one, sometimes two, depending on what type of group it was. But they would sit you up front, you would tell something really awful about yourself, and then the group would kind of berate you and agree with you, and then even pull a little bit more. Well, I think you were thinking this, and I think that's awful. And you should really take a look at this. And it was called feedback.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:04] And you're all minors in this group.

Becky Loveless [01:24:07] Yeah. And mind you, the staff members are simply people who have just graduated from the program. There were maybe a handful of actual group sessions that were done with an actual clinician therapist. Most of them were led by people who were either on fifth phase, which is the highest phase, or people who had just graduated from the program.

Becky Loveless [01:24:37] So I get brought into this group. This is my first day there. And I remember they brought me in front, said, this is Becky. And they asked me, what are my compulsions? And I was like, what are my. What? Like, what's the what. What's your drug list? I was like, I don't have one. I've never done drugs before.

Arriving and Being Assessed at the Program

Becky Loveless [01:24:59] They're like, oh, well, what are your compulsions? Like, do you lie? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I've lied. Have you manipulated. And I was like, I think so. Like, so I was told to tell the whole group that I was a liar, that I was a manipulator, and that I sexually acted out, that I used sex to act out, to rebel.

Becky Loveless [01:25:30] And. And then you get feedback, and. And I remember. Oh, and one of the questions they ask you is, do you think you need to be here? And at that first time, I said, no. And then it was like this. Like, oh, she did not just say that. You knew in that moment, you were never allowed to say that. You did not think you needed to be there. You had to tell everyone you Knew you needed to be there and that this place was saving your life.

Becky Loveless [01:26:00] So I finish up group that whole group session. And still, I think, still in the back of my mind, I was like, I think my parents might show up. Like, I think they might just take me home. Like, I think maybe they were just trying to scare me.

Becky Loveless [01:26:16] And at the end of the day, they line up girl side on the. We're all just sitting on the floor. It's this big, like, warehouse, big building thing. And we're all just sitting on the floor.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] Is this in North Salt Lake?

Becky Loveless [01:26:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:27] Okay.

Becky Loveless [01:26:28] A little bit past, like, it's the exit that takes you to the airport. You go one exit past that. And that was when, like, I said that when we passed that exit, I was like, oh, no. So it's just a little bit further. Like, Lifeline is in the path of the airplanes. Because I remember hearing airplanes and just wishing that I was on an airplane. Like, that was all the time and not in that place.

Becky Loveless [01:26:55] So we're sitting facing each other because it's almost like they really liked to test you because you were. You're literally not allowed to look at somebody else, and especially not at guy side or girls are not supposed to look at guy side. Guys are not supposed to look at girl side. And if you do, you get in big trouble. So they would sit us Indian style on the floor looking at each other, but you could not look up. Like, they would put us like a foot in between our knees.

Becky Loveless [01:27:25] And I remember that was the end of the day. And I will never forget the sound of my blue and gray duffel bag just being, like, brought over my head. And then they just dropped it in front of me. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm here. Like, this is really happening, and I'm really here.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:48] Okay. So then

Becky Loveless [01:27:54] every. Every. Every time you go to the bathroom, every time you go to sleep, you have to get shaken out, or that's what they call it. And they're checking you for drugs or anything on you. And at night it was really awkward because I like, besides. Besides with him, I was a very private person. Like, I didn't even get, like, changed in front of my sisters. I was always a very private person. So that was really traumatizing for me because you had to get down to a T shirt and your underwear, and then they would literally, like, feel your underwear to check you for drugs or whatever. So it was very invasive. Very invasive. And for someone who's never done drugs, who's never. I've Never harmed myself. I've never. Like, it was just unnecessary. But they treat everyone the same in there, no matter what you've done and what you haven't done.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:50] I was gonna say that there's no, like, not that any of this is, like, backed by any kind of good research or strategy, but, like, there was no inventory when you came in. So a parent could just, like, want to be harsh on their kids and too bad you're in there because the parents are paying them, I'm guessing.

Becky Loveless [01:29:07] Yeah. And especially in. In my situation, I'm not. I. I will say that there were people in my facility who had it a lot harder than me. I was very compliant, and I was very good at following the rules, and I was very. But if you stepped out of line, it got nasty.

John Dehlin [01:29:29] Meaning what?

Becky Loveless [01:29:35] I would say, for the most part, it would be a lot of yelling and screaming in someone's face. But there were times that if. If the kid got too much of it and they tried to step out of the yelling. I remember one specific time it was someone on guy side, and you have to realize you're not allowed to look.

Becky Loveless [01:29:54] So everything that I'm seeing is kind of out of the corner of my eye. But he had just had enough. They were. They were tearing him down, and he kind of stood up, and he wasn't supposed to because he was on shoulder. And he got just thrown to the ground, and just. People just started sitting on him, and he was just screaming and like, get off of me. Get off of me. And until he calmed down, which took probably 15, 20 minutes, people. And that was. That happened all the time. If you got out of line, if you tried to do anything that was against the rules, you were physically pushed to the ground and either sat on or held down or whatever until you complied.

Becky Loveless [01:30:35] Until you calmed down and complied. So I saw that and never. I didn't want to be part of that at all. I ended up, at some point, having to be of part one of the people who sat on someone else, because that was my job as an oldcomer, which I.

Becky Loveless [01:31:01] Hate that I was convinced that that was what was good for these people. Because they were being treated like crap. And to know that I was part of that, like that instance where they kind of just had enough and they finally let out their frustration or their anger, and I was the one that made sure that they calmed down and they got back in line.

Becky Loveless [01:31:28] And I feel like that was just kind of the emphasis of that whole thing was like, don't step out of line. You will get held down. You will get pushed down until you comply.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:43] And.

Alex Loveless [01:31:44] And you'll get set back.

Becky Loveless [01:31:45] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [01:31:45] As well. That's the fear set back to. Sorry, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:49] There.

Becky Loveless [01:31:49] There are phases in the program up to five.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] What are the phases, if you remember.

Becky Loveless [01:31:55] So first phase, it was like split up into three different phases. You could be on. Well, technically four. You could be on double shoulder. If you are really high run risk. That would mean that if you stood up, ever, if you put pressure on your feet, ever, you had to have two people holding onto your shoulders at all times. At all times.

John Dehlin [01:32:17] What's that called?

Becky Loveless [01:32:18] Double shoulder.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Okay.

Becky Loveless [01:32:21] Once you gained a little bit more trust, you were on single shoulder. After that was shadow, which meant that someone had to be within arm's reach of you at all times. And then the other one was tnr. And that was when you trust and respect or trust and responsibility. Sorry. And that was when you were able to get your shoes back. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:42] Good day.

Becky Loveless [01:32:43] Fantastic day for some people.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:45] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:32:46] That was all on first phase. And all the time while you were in first phase, you would not be going home to see your parents every night. You would be going to what they called host homes. And there was a very strict schedule you had to follow. You weren't allowed to look at or talk to anybody in the home while you were there at night. You would sleep in a T shirt and underwear. You would bring your sheets with you. There was literally just mattresses on the floor. There was nothing in the room. The windows had alarms on them. You were literally locked in at night, and there was alarms on the door.

Becky Loveless [01:33:23] And as a newcomer, like I said, you weren't allowed to speak at all. So if you needed to go to the bathroom at night, too bad. Like, hold it. Sorry. You were locked in. And if you woke up and talked to anybody in the middle of the night, you would get in trouble. And your oldcomer would go to group the next day and they would confront you. They would hold up their hand like this in group, and whoever had a confrontation would get called on first. So they would confront.

Becky Loveless [01:33:54] Becky woke up in the middle of the night and tried to talk to a newcomer. Even if that's what I. Even if I was literally just trying to ask her to go to the bathroom, I would get in trouble for that because it could have been seen as me trying to get in cahoots with a newcomer and try and run away.

Becky Loveless [01:34:11] So every little thing is watched and confronted, and you have to just take it. You are never allowed to question anybody. Even if. If the feedback was completely absurd, you would just have to say, I can take responsibility for that, or, I'll take a look at that. Or. But you were never allowed to say, I just had to go to the bathroom. Like, honesty only got you so far. They just wanted you to comply.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:42] How is it possible to never go to the bathroom at night, especially as a woman? Like, what, for like, a year of your life?

Becky Loveless [01:34:51] He's like, how did you do that?

Samantha Shelley [01:34:52] That seems physically impossible.

Becky Loveless [01:34:55] You learned really fast.

John Dehlin [01:34:57] Like, I would guess you would limit your intake of water.

Becky Loveless [01:35:02] Yeah, that's what I learned to do. Like, I. I would not drink water as much as I normally would. And. And that went for during the day, too, because during group, you're not allowed to have to go to the bathroom. There were, like, a couple times during the day that there were bathroom times. And if you did, you would get confronted like that. There was no question if you even. Just because we weren't allowed to talk, we had this weird sign language thing, and we would hold up a sign like this that meant I needed to go to the bathroom. For the most part, you would get ignored.

Becky Loveless [01:35:34] If you did it enough, then someone might decide to take you. But then as soon as you came back, you would get confronted. Like, why did you feel the need to go to the bathroom during group? Like, why? What makes you feel like you're so special that you can leave group and go to the bathroom? Like, it was. It was just every aspect of your life was under the thumb of, quite frankly, people who didn't even know what they were doing.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:59] Random people with no clinical expertise or knowledge, apparently.

Becky Loveless [01:36:04] Yeah. And this facility, this is still how it's run today, as far as, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] How long? Oh, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:13] No, I was just. Was like, how is that legal? An obvious question, but, like.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] Well, see, you know, I was just gonna say, like, somebody made a comment in the comments. People from all over the United States, never Mormons send their kids to Utah because apparently Utah not only breeds these types of institutions, but they also apparently have laws that allow these centers to be even more strict. These kidnappings, these abductions. You know, there are laws in Utah designed to cater to and strengthen the power of these sorts of institutions. That's why they're everywhere. That's why Utah's in the news about these sorts of things. So it's not just Mormons that are there, but it's Mormons that are running them.

Conditions and Control Inside the Facility

Samantha Shelley [01:37:05] Right, right.

Becky Loveless [01:37:05] And keeping them funded.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] And then are bishops, as far as, you know, are Bishops recommending to their ward members, Mormon bishops recommending to their ward member parents to send their kids to these institutions.

Becky Loveless [01:37:19] Yes. That was how my parents found Lifeline.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:22] Legal church sanctioned child abuse. That's all.

John Dehlin [01:37:26] Like, you're just describing funded, right?

Samantha Shelley [01:37:29] You're describing brainwashing techniques, torture. Like, there's nothing in that. Like, yeah, if you torture someone, if you abuse someone enough, like, a lot of the time they'll fall in line. Especially at a young age when their brains are very like, you know, you can kind of get them into those grooves. But like, that doesn't say anything about. Oh, it's really blowing my mind. I already knew they were bad, but,

Alex Loveless [01:37:50] like, it's stripping every. It's stripping everybody there of. Of fundamental rights.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:56] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [01:37:56] Things that you shouldn't have taken.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] It's like a prime navy boot camp kind of mentality, right?

Alex Loveless [01:38:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] Strip you of our identity and then rebuild you back up.

Alex Loveless [01:38:04] You kind of compare it to jail in a sense, but it's, it's. I can't. I don't want to compare it, but it's, in a way it's. It's worse in some ways because you're having rights taken away from you that shouldn't be taken away from you to break these kids down.

Becky Loveless [01:38:16] There were kids there who purposefully tried to get out of Lifeline and go to juvenile. They wanted to go to juvie over Lifeline.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Why? Do you know why?

Becky Loveless [01:38:26] It was so much better there. It was so much more lax there.

John Dehlin [01:38:30] Better than juvie?

Becky Loveless [01:38:31] Yeah. Because absolutely.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:33] Presumably juvie has some degree of, like, human rights. Actual clinicians, you know, go to the bathroom. There's probably more strict rules on what, you know, people are allowed to do to kids in juvie, but it feels like it was just a complete free for all at these places.

Becky Loveless [01:38:48] Well, and the truth is, there was never. So the day consisted. Well, for the most part, you were in group and you were being berated or you were having to berate someone

Samantha Shelley [01:39:00] else for 12 hours a day.

Becky Loveless [01:39:02] Yeah, I mean, there were. I think there were a couple hours that kids would do school, but because I'd already graduated, I didn't have to. So I literally laid on a hard carpet floor and read my scriptures because I thought that would get me some brownie points with God. I don't know. They. Their exercise was maybe a 20 minute Richard Simmons video.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:26] Dope.

Becky Loveless [01:39:26] It was.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] Was it literally Richard Simmons?

Becky Loveless [01:39:28] It was sweating to the oldies. Richard Simmons. I am not joking.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:33] It's not fun if you're not doing it. Ironically, At a party?

Becky Loveless [01:39:35] No, it was. It was awful. It was awful. But it's. It's hilarious that that became my favorite part of the day.

John Dehlin [01:39:42] Richard Simmons.

Becky Loveless [01:39:43] Absolutely. Absolutely. I had some semblance of freedom because I could move and I could. I could be as dumb as music is kind of my thing. But the fact that we were able to listen to music and move to the music, that was everything to me. I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:40:06] How long were you there in total? Again?

Becky Loveless [01:40:08] I was only there for five months.

John Dehlin [01:40:10] Only.

Becky Loveless [01:40:11] Oh, no. Kids are there for almost two years. I personally know someone who was there for 22 months.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:19] Was that because you were.

Becky Loveless [01:40:20] Did you turn 18 or so? What ended up happening was. I think my parents kind of got a clue and that it was bad. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:31] Oh, how.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] So what are the visitation rules and the communication rules?

Becky Loveless [01:40:35] So I'm not allowed to talk to my parents at all while you're on first phase.

John Dehlin [01:40:41] So you could be being abused and

Becky Loveless [01:40:42] you can't tell your first 100%.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:44] I'm guessing that's what's the point of not even being able to look well.

Becky Loveless [01:40:47] And parents. I've spoken with my parents just recently about this. Cause up until probably about a year ago, I still just didn't talk about this. It was not something I touched. It was not something I wanted to make my parents feel bad about. So I just didn't talk about it. But I finally had a conversation with them, and they told me that they were warned by staff members that if I say anything bad about Lifeline, that's totally typical, and don't listen. Like, just. They're trying to manipulate their way out of the program. So just be be aware that that's going to happen, and just know that that is not true.

Becky Loveless [01:41:23] So they'd almost prepare the parents that if anything bad ever did get said, they would be prepared not to believe them. So I. Like I said, I was. I was very compliant. I followed the rules. I understood that I needed to get through the program. Like, I understood that that was the only way I was getting out. So the only hiccup I had in my moving up through the phases was, so every week. Oh, you were talking about visitation rights.

Becky Loveless [01:41:54] Every week, newcomers, there would be something called an open meeting where parents would be able to come. And literally, like I was telling you before, the only thing I got to say to my sister was I love you. And she would say, I love you back.

Becky Loveless [01:42:08] And there's weird chants and songs, and. That's when you would announce if you've moved up, if you Moved up from shoulder to tnr, you'd get to tell your parents that at that point during the big open meeting, and then after open meeting, you would have maybe 15 minutes or so sitting in a circle with your parents. Like, there were just all these little circles all over this warehouse of families. And you were supposed to apologize to your parents. That was the only thing you were allowed to do in that 15 minutes was apologize. And they were allowed to give you feedback or whatever.

Becky Loveless [01:42:48] Another weird thing that they would do is if you were allowed at that point to hug your family when you were done with the apology circle. But you had to look at your oldcomer, and you could not hug and look away from your oldcomer. Like, they had to make sure that you were looking because they were claiming that you would whisper something to your family or whatever. So they had to make sure you were looking the right way as you hugged your family. And that was a big deal. Like, if you accidentally went in for a hug, they'd be like, no, no,

Samantha Shelley [01:43:17] no, look at me.

Becky Loveless [01:43:18] Like, you couldn't even hug your family

John Dehlin [01:43:21] who's been there longer than you.

Becky Loveless [01:43:22] Yeah, anyone on second phase, Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] So you're hugging your parents, but looking at some other inmate that's just been there longer than you while you hug your mom or whatever.

Becky Loveless [01:43:32] And if you did not, you would get confronted. And that could be grounds for setting. Like, the littlest things could set you back. For instance, I. So what you do every week is you put in to be. To rise up in the phases, to graduate from first phase to second phase or whatever.

Becky Loveless [01:43:52] And so I had put in, which means you write a little kind of like essay type thing explaining why you feel like you've made some progress and you feel like you should move up in the phases. And then you have before open meeting, you have group meeting where there's a table of staff members, and you have girl side and guy side, and they have all the papers of all the kids who are putting in for something, and they go through them individually. They have you stand up, kind of give a brief explanation of why you think you should move up. And I was putting in for second phase, which meant that I was going to, at that point, be able to go home to my house and bring newcomers home with me.

Becky Loveless [01:44:32] So that was a big deal. Like, like I said before, my family was everything to me. Like, I missed them. So going home was a huge deal. So I had put in for going home, and I was sure I was gonna get it because I'd been so Good.

Becky Loveless [01:44:59] And so what they do is they'll have you stand up, and then everybody kind of sits down, and Olive group puts their head down, and group gets to vote if you go home or

Samantha Shelley [01:45:11] if you don't, just your peers.

Becky Loveless [01:45:14] So I'm sitting there with my eyes closed, and they say, who thinks Becky deserves second face? And I hear all the hands go up, and I'm just so happy. And then one of the staff members is like, okay, everybody put your hands down.

Becky Loveless [01:45:32] They're like, you know, this girl's lying to you. You know, this girl's full of shit. Why are you saying that she should be going to second phase? She hasn't gotten honest with you guys. You still all think she's never done drugs. Like, and I hadn't. But they were sitting there listening to the staff member.

Becky Loveless [01:45:51] And she proceeds to convince them not only to not put me onto second phase, but to set me back to shoulder. So I had earned. I'd done shoulder shadow, tnr. And they end up. Because the staff members are all in charge.

Becky Loveless [01:46:08] She says, hey, we're voting again. Do you think Becky should move up to second phase? Silence. Do you think Becky should stay on TNR? Silence? Do you think Becky should be set back to shoulder? And I hear all these hands go up. I just was like, okay, well,

John Dehlin [01:46:25] so two questions. Were any of these staff licensed mental health professionals, as far as, you know, the ones that were making these decisions, leading these groups?

Becky Loveless [01:46:37] I think in that specific group. But this is. This is a weird group because it's literally just like deciding if someone's going to move up in the phases. This person who was saying all this stuff about me, I'd never talked to her ever. She knew nothing about me, But I believe she was a licensed clinician. But I will tell you, in the five months I was there, I saw an actual therapist three times, meaning three appointments.

John Dehlin [01:47:03] Three appointments out of five in five months.

Becky Loveless [01:47:05] Five months.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] Like, I'm struggling. So for those who don't know, I have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. I worked as a psychologist basically for six years. I don't know if it's worse that if these people weren't licensed or were, because if they weren't licensed, they've got no business leading a center for troubled youth. If they were licensed, then they need to have their license taken away because this is completely unethical. And this ob. This is clearly the mentality that informed someone like Jody Hildebrandt to go. And Ruby Frankie to go on and torture the children, because that's just one step beyond the level of abuse and torture that we're hearing in the center.

Becky Loveless [01:47:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] Like handcuffs and cayenne pepper and honey, like, is just waterboarding is like, one step beyond what I'm hearing right now.

Becky Loveless [01:47:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:47:59] So, like, I don't know what's worse, having these people be licensed or not.

Alex Loveless [01:48:03] Another point I don't know if you guys talked about, but these. These homes that they would go to, the. I don't know, you call them.

Becky Loveless [01:48:09] They're called host homes.

Alex Loveless [01:48:10] Host homes. These people aren't vetted. They would just go home to these. To these people's. It's just. That was incredible, though.

Becky Loveless [01:48:19] They would technically send someone to the home to make sure that the home was secure, to make sure that they had the alarms on the doors, to make sure that there was nothing. Like, they would have to take the closet, pull out of the closet. Like, there was literally nothing in the room. The doors off the closet, that's what they would go and they would check out. I mean, the types of homes that I was going to, I was terrified to be there. It wasn't safe. And there were instances where. And up until I talked to my parents, I thought that they had okayed this, but there was one of the dads of the girls who told me that my parents had said it was okay for him to do a chiropractic massage on me.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:06] Oh, my God.

Becky Loveless [01:49:08] And so that happened.

John Dehlin [01:49:10] That happened.

Becky Loveless [01:49:11] Yes. And nothing. Nothing nefarious happened. But later finding out that he had lied and told me that my parents had been okay with that. And this whole. Like, this is. I never told anyone because I. You. You are not. You're not allowed to say anything negative about this place or you will get set back. And that just means you're there longer, suffering longer.

Alex Loveless [01:49:34] Well, and just to go back to that, she's had migraines her entire life since she was a child and fell off a fence. And she dealt with that, but she wasn't allowed to have medicine in Lifeline.

Becky Loveless [01:49:45] I spent that first night with my head in a toilet because I was so sick. And that made them think I was a bulimic. Like, it could never just be what it was. It always. There always had to be something behind it.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:00] And if you were a bulimic, that's not going to be the treatment that's. I mean, it's not treatment. It's just abuse.

Becky Loveless [01:50:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:07] And. And this idea of accusing you, falsely accusing you of. Of using drugs.

Becky Loveless [01:50:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] And torpedoing your ability to go see your family. I Could think of two things. Either the facilitator just assumed all kids were bad and had tried drugs, or they were intentionally trying to set you off to teach you to subdue and control your emotions through humiliation and unfair treatment. Because either they wanted you to blow your lid so that then they could punish you more, or they wanted to teach you extreme self control.

Becky Loveless [01:50:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] What do you think?

Becky Loveless [01:50:50] Well, interestingly enough, that day that I got set back, that was when I. Because I. I was very good at holding it together in group meetings, even though I miss my family terribly. But I think it was the letdown of like, I thought I was gonna be. Cause what happens is you go through your. Your family says, love you, love you. And when you get to the last person, if you've made it to second phase, you get to yell going home. And you run to your parents and you get to hug them. And I was sitting there thinking I was gonna be doing that that day.

Becky Loveless [01:51:20] I lost my shoes. I got set back that day and in group, I remember locking eyes with my dad. And I wasn't supposed to, but I could see that he was crying. And that obviously made me just lose it. And I put my head down and I kept getting in trouble. They were like, put your head up, put your head up. But I was like, well, if you see me that I'm crying, I'm gonna get in trouble. But if I put my head up, like, if I don't put my head up, like, I just. So I was just like, okay, whatever. You had to sit with your hands on your leg and you had to have your head up.

Becky Loveless [01:51:52] And so I just sat there with tears just streaming down my face. And I got berated so badly after that group meeting. Like, you were trying to manipulate your parents so bad. I saw you, like, and it was. I was like, I'm. Yeah, I.

Becky Loveless [01:52:08] Cause you're not allowed to say. No, I wasn't. You had to say, yeah, I guess I was. I'll take a look at that. Thanks for your feedback.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:15] Did you have to say that you did drugs even though you didn't to like, survive? I held.

Becky Loveless [01:52:19] I held firm to that one. But I know a girl who did. Like, just because I. I've kept in contact with her after.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:25] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:52:25] And she was like, I had to say something. Like, they wouldn't believe me. So I told them I did weed.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:30] It just goes. Even within their, like, completely psychopathic system. There's no integrity to it because, like, you were like the perfect student. You would. As far as they're Concerned taking in all the lessons. Exactly as you could hope, a student to student. But, like, it doesn't matter. It was. Oh, I can't imagine. I can understand how the parents get fooled into getting kids into those kinds of programs out of fear. But it's so sad how it's then exposing you to far more risk than you were ever under with your, like, wholesome high school relationship.

Becky Loveless [01:53:03] Yeah. Well, I've always joked that when I got out of the lifeline, if I really wanted to stick it to my parents, I knew at least five people I could get heroin from. From the group.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:13] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:53:14] Like.

Alex Loveless [01:53:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:15] Cause kids having normative sexual exploration.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:18] Are in there with probably people who have been shoplifting, drug using, sexually pedophiles.

Becky Loveless [01:53:27] Like, the things I heard in there I'd never even thought about.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:32] And it's all the thing of, like, apologizing to your parents. It's just, Just presumed that the parents are kind of innocent in all of this.

Becky Loveless [01:53:39] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:39] And they're just like the dictators over your lives.

Becky Loveless [01:53:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:42] Handing you off to these, like, apparently legal torture prisons. And I think that's blowing my mind.

Becky Loveless [01:53:48] Yeah. I think that's the. Maybe one of the, the core issues with the laws is that parents rights are so protected. And I, I appreciate that. I, I'm, I'm glad of that in some certain, certain situations. But they had no right to keep me there.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:09] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:54:09] That business, that facility had no right to keep me there.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:12] I heard of parents treating their kids like the way they treat you in this facility. Yeah. They would. Like, you could call child services.

Becky Loveless [01:54:19] Absolutely. And you would.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:21] Literally stripped of your voices, stripped of even eye contact. Like, I can't fathom that level of, like, dehumanization. It does sound worse than, like, accounts I've heard of. Of prison. And yeah.

Becky Loveless [01:54:32] You have some sense of identity there, but you are, you are absolutely emptied of everything that is you and filled in with what your staff members want of you and your parents want of you, because that's the only way to survive in that place and to get out and to actually maybe have some sort of freedom again. But it's just bonkers.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:56] Also, we just kind of glossed over the chiropractic massage. But I'm like, whether or not anything like, like that in and of itself is, like, nefarious.

John Dehlin [01:55:05] What does Claire Sultan claim happened to her at her troubled teen center?

Samantha Shelley [01:55:08] She. I mean, it sounds like a slightly different flavor, but essentially the same kind of thing, just like, stripped of every basic humanity.

John Dehlin [01:55:15] But wasn't there some type of sexual.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:16] Yeah, I think she was sexually. Bare minimum. I remember her saying she was sexually harassed a lot by the staff. I think she was actually abused as well. Someone double check.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] But okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:28] Yeah. And that's a different one. Like, all of them seem like they're like this. I'm sure there is a bit of a spectrum. And I know, like, I've had friends who do, like, the wilderness stuff, but, like, the wilderness thing, you are, like, out there. And I can't. I don't know anything about this, but it seems like with that there's at least, like, a basic semblance of, like, you're learning survival skills, you're in nature. But this, there's just no semblance of, like, anything good. It's just all abuse.

Becky Loveless [01:55:56] It really felt like that. It felt like I was. I was so bad that everything that was me needed to disappear and I needed to become something completely different. And they almost succeeded in that. But luckily, I think my parents were catching on to things that just wasn't right. And I remember the first time they approached me and asked me, like, are you doing okay? Like, I had newcomers with me, so I had to be like, yeah, I'm doing so good. Like, this program is awesome.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:44] I'm.

Becky Loveless [01:56:44] Thank you so much for putting me here. Like, I had to put on a show because I was with people who I knew would totally rat me out. And then I wouldn't be able to be home with my parents anymore. So it was like, oh, yeah. And then.

Becky Loveless [01:56:59] So within that five months, I happened to have three sisters get married while I was in there. For the first two, I had to have an oldcomer come with me to their wedding. Like, that was even a big deal that I even got to go.

Becky Loveless [01:57:11] But when my third sister got married, they allowed me to go by myself. And that was when I felt like I could finally talk to my parents and be like, this place is awful. I don't need to be here.

Becky Loveless [01:57:25] Like, I had decided while I was in there. I'm like, this is going to be a missionary effort. Like, I'm going to be so good at reading my scriptures. I'm going to try and be a light for these girls who clearly live in such awful. Like, the situations that I saw some of these girls in was just awful.

Becky Loveless [01:57:44] And so I had decided, like, for as long as I have to be here because I have no control, I wanted to be a light and a missionary. And so that was how I got through it. But like I said at that point where my parents finally asked me, and I broke down. I just was like, this is not. This is not a good place. This is not helping me. I think that was when I told them I'd seen a clinician three times, and I'm not getting any therapy. I'm not getting any help. I'm literally just being told how bad of a person I am every day, day in, day out.

Becky Loveless [01:58:22] I had to write an essay every single night called a moral inventory about something horrible that I had done and why it was so bad. So it was just five months of, I'm a horrible, bad, awful person, and if I don't do exactly what my parents or the staff members say, I'm either gonna end up in jail or dead.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:41] So it even seems like it would be. Even with explaining that, it would still be hard to, like, fully capture to your parents how horrific it was, because as a teenager, you don't have, like, language around, like, abuse and torture and brainwashing and, like, dehumanize it. And all this stuff that was happening was, like, so insidious. But you don't, like, know any of that.

Becky Loveless [01:59:01] Yeah, that's right. Because I remember. I. All. I think all I said was, it's not the right place for me or anyone. It's not a good place. It's not the right place for me. I think I'm done. I think I've taken everything I need out of this place. But I remember when it was time for me to go, they had gotten to me so good that I was like, I will never speak a bad word about this place. I will never do it. Like, they had convinced me, like, they have so many others. A lot of. A lot of us are kind of waking up, and this is 20 years down the road, but there's a lot of us waking up right now to the absolute 100% abuse that we endured there. As much as it wasn't physical, it was absolutely mental, emotional abuse.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:53] And, I mean, it wasn't physical in the sense of, like, you were being hit, but yeah. Your eye movements were being controlled.

Becky Loveless [02:00:01] Yeah. Even every time we stood up. Having to be touched.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:04] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:00:04] Every time we stood up.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:05] Having to get groped.

Becky Loveless [02:00:06] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:07] In your underwear every night. Like, all of it.

Alex Loveless [02:00:09] This is something she talked about before we came up here. Was she. She felt, am I. Am I worthy to talk about this when so many people have been through so many other things? But. But seeing this from being with her my whole life and how much it's affected her mentally, the continued aha moments, it's Real, I mean, there's all sorts of levels of trauma that people go through and some people go through something horrible and there's. Someone went through something even worse. So there's all sorts of levels. But this is something that has affected her and finding out, talking to many people, that it's affecting a lot of people. And so it's, it's an issue.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:51] Yeah. And I imagine you would come out a bit more inclined to downplay it then. That's why I'm like anyone coming out without saying it was a great thing. I'm like, that might be the narrative you had to have to survive.

Daily Life, Seminary, and Psychological Harm

Becky Loveless [02:01:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:02] But just like, objectively, that is a bad thing to do to kids. Like, it will mess up your brain.

Becky Loveless [02:01:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:09] Really quickly. Do you know how much your parents paid for you to be there five months and how much other people pay?

Becky Loveless [02:01:14] How much? They said, I'm.

John Dehlin [02:01:16] It's gotta be, it's gotta be in the tens of thousands.

Becky Loveless [02:01:19] I think it was $4,000 a month was what I, when I, when I got out of Lifeline, I was snooping around in their closet one day and I found a bill. And I think I remember that's what it was.

John Dehlin [02:01:33] And how many kids were in there, do you think?

Becky Loveless [02:01:35] When I, when I went there, it was probably 50 to 70 kids, I'm not sure. And I know it was about the same when my sister went there. I remember it looked about the same, the amount of kids and a lot of kids who actually go there, their families can't afford that. And I heard specifically from some of the girls in my group that their bishops were helping pay for it. So I know firsthand from these people that tithing money was going towards funding this treatment center. And it's still very much an okay, non taboo thing for bishops to be sending families to this facility.

John Dehlin [02:02:25] So I just did the math. If it's $4,000 per head per month and there's 70 kids there, that's 3.4 million a year in revenue that the church is subsidizing. Now. That's assuming it's 4,000. If it's more than 4,000 and I'm guessing it's doubled since 20 years ago. It could be 6, 8, 10,000. I mean, yeah, Jody Hildebrandt had a $3.1 million home in Ivan's, Utah. And we know that the church was the number one referrer to Jody Hildebrandt. Right. So the church is taking tithing members, tithing money from its members and funding these torture slash abuse centers.

Becky Loveless [02:03:11] Yeah. And like I've said before, like, the treatment center I went to was one of the better ones. I've heard lots of worse stories because

John Dehlin [02:03:23] these go all up and down the I15 corridors in Utah.

Becky Loveless [02:03:26] There's so many of them. There are so many treatment centers. And it blew my mind to find out that they were still running these centers pretty much the same way that they did when I was there 20 years ago. There's not for sure. I know, because I've spoken to a couple people who were staff members there who have left and have since started speaking out about this, and they're trying to. To help the situation, and they're telling me that to this day, it's the same. There are. There are slight differences, but it's very much the same.

John Dehlin [02:04:05] So I'm on the life. It's the. The website's lifelineutah.com the logo is Lifeline for Youth.

Becky Loveless [02:04:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:14] And then it says, our critical mission. In today's world, it's all too common for teens to make bad decisions. Even the best kids, you, perhaps some you know, and love, can lose their way. Since 1990, the lifeline for Youth program has brought hope and healing to thousands of families suffering from substance abuse, depression. That. That's disturbing.

Becky Loveless [02:04:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:39] Family relationship problems. So just not getting along. Criminal behavior. As if these are all analogous school problems. School problems. So not being a good student. Pornography, out of control, and other destructive behaviors that prevent youth from being happy and successful. So basically, if you're. If your kid isn't happy and successful, they're a candidate for the. What? Cool. What kid is always happy while you're a teenager? Right.

Becky Loveless [02:05:09] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [02:05:10] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:11] Oh, I was gonna ask, like, what was the age range? Like, were you one of the older ones?

Becky Loveless [02:05:15] Yeah, definitely. Because you could actually. You could sign yourself out as soon as you turned 18. A lot of people didn't, though.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:23] Really?

Becky Loveless [02:05:24] Yeah, they. They grabbed your mind so tight.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:28] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:05:29] They. Even when. When I was leaving, my. They took my parents into a room and were like, you're destroying your child's life by taking her out of this. You need to keep her in here. Like, this is not okay for you to take her out. She has not completed the program yet, so it's. It's very much a manipulative situation to keep kids in there as long as possible, to spread that blanket out as widely as possible so that as many kids can come in. And what was ridiculous to me was I'd never seen a therapist ever in my life. Like, my parents didn't go to.

Becky Loveless [02:06:05] Let's go take her to a therapist or let's try and talk this out kind of thing, that I wasn't the only one. I know a previous staff member from Lifeline, and she's taking a lot of interviews of kids who were in that treatment center, and she said the majority of them had never seen a therapist. Like, they'd never tried any other forms of treatment. It was a, my kid's out of control. Let's take them to Lifeline.

John Dehlin [02:06:33] Like, yeah. And then I was gonna ask about the curriculum. Number one, Was it religion based and was it Mormonism based?

Becky Loveless [02:06:41] We had seminary there.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] You had seminary there?

Becky Loveless [02:06:44] Yes, we had seminary there.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] That's Mormon high school religious education.

Becky Loveless [02:06:48] That was part of the couple hours they would give towards school every day. And it was. It was a bit weird because I know for sure back when my sister went, it was much more Mormon focused. I think as I was there, they were in this weird transitional phase.

Becky Loveless [02:07:08] So some of the staff members would be very much like, talk the Mormon lingo with you. Like, yeah, just stuff that as a Mormon, it would. You would understand. And they would definitely harp on, like, yeah, masturbation is awful and bad, and you shouldn't be doing that. And then you would go to another group where you'd have another staff member who's like, masturbation is fine. Like, stop beating yourself up over that. Like, that's fine. So you would get mixed messages all over the place, and you were never really sure, like.

Becky Loveless [02:07:39] But like I said, I think that was a weird transition time. I don't know what they're like now, but for sure, back when my sister went, which was 10 years prior to me going, it was absolutely, like, you would bear your testimony during open meeting. Like, that's what it was.

John Dehlin [02:07:54] I would guess that as they're marketing out of state to have more money, wealthier parents sending wealthier kids, they would need to kind of back off on the Mormon stuff so that Jewish kids and evangelical Christian kids and Catholic kids could feel comfortable there and not like they're being religiously indoctrinated.

Becky Loveless [02:08:12] I will say when that. When that staff member told that person that it was okay to masturbate, I was like,

John Dehlin [02:08:19] no, it's not. So last thing, just from the website, they've got a page on warning signs. So this is like, parents, this is. This is what makes your kid a candidate for Lifeline. Are you ready for this, Samantha?

John Dehlin [02:08:36] Downward shift in peers. So basically changing friends. Deterioration in school performance. So struggling in school, decrease Extracurricular activities. Did you know, family conflict, violating curfew, you know, breaking rules. Okay, here's where it's really disturbing. Cutting, suicidal ideation, impulsive or compulsive behaviors. If a kid is self harming or suicidal, this is the last place you want to send that kid. You want to send those kids to licensed mental health professionals who are going to have weekly licensed evidence based therapy. Not, not sending them to a place where these people not only aren't licensed and trained, but they're likely abusive. So it's weird that they're trying, trying to, to treat depression, suicidal ideation and, and, and self, self harm. That's, that's really unethical and crazy.

Becky Loveless [02:09:46] I was an oldcomer that was in charge of a sweet little girl who was 13 years old who struggled with self harm. And I was in charge of her well being. And I found her with staples stuck up her arm that she would save for later to cut herself. And I didn't know how she was doing it, but it was my job to make sure that she was not harming herself.

John Dehlin [02:10:10] I remember as a 40 whatever year old PhD student having my first clients that self harmed and it was incredibly traumatic for a 40 year old in his PhD thinking that I had the responsibility for fixing this problem. I can't imagine putting that on a 17 year old or a 15 year old.

Becky Loveless [02:10:35] It was difficult because she was just such a sweet girl and I really. You end up loving these girls who you're living with and caring about them. And it was a world that I did not understand but I saw it and I could not grapple with the fact that that was happening and that I was in charge of keeping her

John Dehlin [02:10:58] safe or that they were like. It's just these people have no business treating depression, suicide and self harm. From what I've. If you go, if you go to a therapist three times in five months. That's outrageous.

Becky Loveless [02:11:10] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:11:13] go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:15] Sorry. I feel like I'm just harping on because I'm just so blown away by all of this and that I cannot fathom how this is legal and still going on. But like there is no one for which this would be beneficial. The only like positive thing you could say about it is like, I guess you don't have access to drugs while you're in there.

Becky Loveless [02:11:30] Maybe. Yeah, I didn't have access to Alex.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:32] But then you're also teaching people to. You're like completely disconnecting people from themselves and others which is like the cause of addiction. So you're ultimately probably worsening it in almost all cases. The only thing you're teaching these kids is blind obedience to authority, even when it's corrupt, even when you're having to lie about yourself to survive. Like, there's. There's not a shred of goodness in any of it.

John Dehlin [02:11:56] Yeah. And they say that the best anecdote to addiction is healthy emotional connection and social relationships, not shame. And you've been cut off from all of those healthy relationships, isolated and stripped of any healthy emotional connection or relationship. So really quickly, just to finish it's. Other signs of kids being candidates include drug, drug charges, vandalism, shoplifting. Then it just goes generic. Change in personal habits, mood changes, mood changes, apathy, eating and sleeping changes. So like, if your kid's struggling to sleep or is a little bit moody, they're a candidate. Poor hygiene. Oh, and this is crazy. Change in church attendance.

Becky Loveless [02:12:46] Yeah, classic.

John Dehlin [02:12:47] So if a kid like loses their faith, thinks that the religion's stupid, or just reads the CES letter or the Book of Mormon and decides they don't, like, they can be a candidate for going to this center.

Becky Loveless [02:12:58] There were kids in there who were in there because they were gay, to put it bluntly.

John Dehlin [02:13:06] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:08] Everyone should be able to sue for damages. Like everyone that's been in there. I can't wrap my head around it.

Becky Loveless [02:13:15] It's been going for 30 years.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:16] There are like things that are less bad that, that someone could be prosecuted for doing to a child. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:22] You know, and they're not separating the drug users from the sexual. From like the child abusers, from the had sex with their teenage boyfriend, from the kid who's self harming with depression. They're all, they're all lumped in together.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:37] You're staying in random people's homes. It doesn't sound like there's much like overhead costs. They just dump you in a warehouse, get you to all hate on each other for 12 hours and then like that a parent who's paying them four grand a month.

Becky Loveless [02:13:48] Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:48] Then hosts a bunch of other kids.

Becky Loveless [02:13:50] I know, and I know that some parents were told that we would be taken on like white water rafting trips and rock climbing and, and have all this fun activities. I left that building once during my entire, like, I mean, besides going home. I left that building one time and we did like a real helps course down in Provo. And that was the one time I did consider running away because it was so close, but I was like, I would get caught.

John Dehlin [02:14:20] And then the other thing is there's this conflict of Interest where those staff members want to keep you there as long as possible because the longer you're there, the more money they make. So this idea of accusing you of drug use that you never engaged in, keeping you from advancing in the levels unjustifiably, is actually in their self interest to. To keep you there and to abuse you for as long as they can.

Becky Loveless [02:14:47] Right. And the longer you're in there, the more loyal you become to Lifeline, the longer they have to change your brain into saying, this place is great. It's saving my life. I love this place. I hope everybody goes.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:03] That's the Stockholm making you say, right?

Becky Loveless [02:15:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:15:06] That's the Stockholm syndrome thing, where you start to love your abuser.

Becky Loveless [02:15:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:15:11] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:15:12] That's unfortunate.

Inadequate Therapy and Abuse Within the Program

John Dehlin [02:15:14] So were they teaching, like, when I think about self harm. We'll just pick one. When I think about self harm, it's dialectical behavioral therapy. It's Marsha Linehan's. It's. It's distress tolerance, it's, you know, stress reduction, it's meditation, it's mindfulness. There's a treatment for borderline personality disorder or self harm.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Were they teaching you emotion regulation skills and distress. Distress tolerance skills and you know, therapy based.

Becky Loveless [02:15:45] No, no. Honestly, the groups that I remember, a lot of them were kind of scare tactic, like really scaring you straight if it ever veered from the typical therapy,

John Dehlin [02:16:00] like the dare drug, drug program thing, make them terror terrified.

Becky Loveless [02:16:04] Yeah, it was, it was a lot of like, I remember one group because for the most part it was group sessions where the person would sit up front, tell them how bad you are, you give them feedback. That was typically what it was. Sometimes we would get a random group session that was, I remember this one where it was walking through a room and it was all these pictures of like drug addicts, like passed out on the. Or like people in jail, people screaming, crying, like just awful, terrible, scary pictures. And we were supposed to walk through and spend time looking at all those pictures.

Becky Loveless [02:16:40] And then after that they had us lay on a floor and do a meditation. That was it. Like, I was like, what was the point of that? I remember literally laying there and being like, I just feel awful right now.

Becky Loveless [02:16:57] I'm not sure how to meditate, but okay, I'll take the opportunity to lay on the floor rather than sit up straight and look at someone.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:03] I'm like, that sounds like the best of what you've described so far. Like look at some pictures and lie down. Yeah, but you can.

Becky Loveless [02:17:09] Like I said, those were memorable to me because they were so was the

Samantha Shelley [02:17:14] bulk of it just the 12 hour abuse? Yeah, it's just mind blowing. It feels like you can just imagine these I'm imagining just business bros in a back room. Like, what can we have them do today? Let's just put pictures of drug addicts on the wall and then we'll just have him lie down for an hour. Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:17:29] I don't even know.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:29] It's just like making. I mean, none of it is like. Like how. How can you be allowed to have children in your care, troubled children, and not only have something that is not evidence based in any way, not like license, not like vetted by anyone professional in therapy?

John Dehlin [02:17:49] All right. Any other. Any other stories you want to tell that captivate your experience there, other than your escape? You know, I think

Becky Loveless [02:18:01] to really drive in the fact of the manipulation, I became one of their poster child people. They would have me go and talk to parents and have them say, I only was doing. I was lying and manipulating and having sex with my boyfriend. But I'm here and I need to be here. So it was almost like they used me as. This girl's here sales.

John Dehlin [02:18:28] Absolutely. That's so unethical to use your inmates, your patients, your clients as your sales reps. Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:18:36] I went into multiple meetings with parents to tell them how I liked the program and how much it was doing wonderful things for me.

John Dehlin [02:18:43] There's no way that's ethical.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:44] Aren't therapists not even allowed to ask patients for reviews? Like you wouldn't even say to a patient as a therapist, leave me a review.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] No, it's not.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:52] You wouldn't even say that.

John Dehlin [02:18:53] Yeah. Yeah. Using patients and clients as. As your sales force while they're your patients as well, and they're minors.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:02] That's just child labor.

Becky Loveless [02:19:03] And I had no choice.

John Dehlin [02:19:04] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:19:04] When I was asked to do that, I had to.

John Dehlin [02:19:07] Right.

Becky Loveless [02:19:07] And I had to say the right things.

John Dehlin [02:19:09] Right. So this reminds me of how Jody Hildebrandt forced her niece Jesse.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:15] That's what I was thinking to.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] To go around and recruit for her services. I mean, that's where all this comes from.

Becky Loveless [02:19:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:22] Yeah. Wow.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:24] The same Mormon belief that shame is the best method for change, which is demonstrably untrue from all the. Probably even at the time, like all the therapeutic literature at the time. Wasn't saying that there was no reason for them to.

John Dehlin [02:19:36] No, no. Yeah. Okay. So your experience there is capped off by them forcing you to be their sales rep.

Becky Loveless [02:19:44] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:45] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [02:19:45] Okay.

Becky Loveless [02:19:45] And I would. I would actually go and pick up girls. I. There was Several that I picked up from the hospital. Like, I wasn't driving. I was with a staff member, but they would. It was. It felt like they almost always had me go and be their spokesperson, even to go pick up girls and be the one that kidnapped them, which I hate that I did that.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] But you did kidnappings?

Becky Loveless [02:20:13] Technically, yes. The times, the two times that I did it, they were very compliant. We, at least we told them that we were taking them to a facility. They needed to come with us in

John Dehlin [02:20:26] their homes, out of their beds.

Becky Loveless [02:20:28] One of them was, was from a hospital and the other one was from another detention center. I don't remember where that. I, I didn't get told much of anything. I was just told to get in the car and we're gonna go pick up a girl.

John Dehlin [02:20:38] Okay.

Becky Loveless [02:20:39] So, yeah, I did that twice. So, yeah, but you can't say no.

John Dehlin [02:20:49] So what was going on? Let's just say by the time you're done. Had they convinced you that they were helping you in your mind?

Becky Loveless [02:20:57] They had convinced me that Alex was a poisonous person, that we were bad for each other and if I really loved him, that I would leave him alone, that my family was the most important thing to me. And how dare I disrespect them in such a way as to choose someone else over them? Because that's what I was doing. It was either or. You can't have both. You get rid of that guy or you get rid of your family. So as a 17 year old, I make the choice to get rid of him. And in order to get out, I had to write a letter to him telling him I never wanted to see him again, that we were bad for each other, and that that was it. And that's the first he'd heard of anything from me in five months.

Leaving the Program and Early Adulthood

Samantha Shelley [02:21:51] You didn't know she was in that place?

Alex Loveless [02:21:58] No, not at all. And when she got taken, I didn't know. And I hadn't heard from her in a couple days and I was really, really confused. Her cell phone didn't work or she wouldn't answer whatever it was. And I worked at a local grocery store and I went to the back and called her house and her mom answered and I said, is Becky there? And she said, no, she's not. And I said, well, do you know where she is? And she says, yes, but you don't need to know.

Alex Loveless [02:22:29] And that was the end of it. Excuse me? That was the end of it. So I, I, no, I had no idea where she was. I spent time. I drove Claire down to Nephi that was supposedly a camp, thinking I might see her there. I had to sit and question if she left and knew she was leaving, that they convinced her.

Alex Loveless [02:22:52] And so I had to battle that. And that was hard because it's hard for me to under. To come up in my. Come up within my mind that there's no way for her to communicate with me. So I had to battle that. But, you know, fought through that.

Alex Loveless [02:23:09] And she had that letter, and one of her friends called me and said, there's a letter for you from Becky in the mailbox. And so I went and read it, and it says what you'd imagine it'd say that.

Becky Loveless [02:23:22] And at this point, I was out of Lifeline. Yeah, she was out that I got out of Lifeline and I had to deliver the letter to him.

Alex Loveless [02:23:29] And her parents had moved from where they'd lived the whole time. We date since then, but I found my ways of finding out where she lived at the time. And I read the letter, and I only say this because I vividly remember saying it in my mind. And I said. And I drove from my house up Provo Canyon. They lived up Provo Canyon by Sundance and drove the house and knocked on the door. I can't remember who answered, but they said, just a minute. And Becky came out and we hugged for about five minutes. And from that point on, there was no separation after that. They. Her parents, and I give them credit for that. That after, you know, because he went through a lot with her being in Lifeline as well.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] What do you mean by that?

Alex Loveless [02:24:18] I just mean that it wasn't easy for them. They had to go back and forth to Salt Lake and do all these things. And so it wasn't easy for them. It was.

Becky Loveless [02:24:25] They didn't know what I was going through.

Alex Loveless [02:24:27] They didn't know what she was going through.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:28] And every time they see you, you're just. Just apologizing with their head down and stuff. So can't be.

Alex Loveless [02:24:33] Yeah, you know, that's a different story. But I just mean that they went through. They. They. They went through a lot in their own way, whether. Whether it was needed. They needed to go through it or not, whatever. They went through a lot.

Becky Loveless [02:24:46] And financially.

Alex Loveless [02:24:47] Financially and mentally and everything. And so.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] So.

Alex Loveless [02:24:51] But to their credit, they. They gave up at that point, and they accepted me, and that was kind of it.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Wait, so after all that, they let you stay with them?

Becky Loveless [02:25:04] They had one last ditch effort. They sent me to North Carolina to live with my sister.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] For how long?

Becky Loveless [02:25:10] It's about a I think it was a month. It was like three. Three to four weeks. But, yeah, that. That very interesting moment, because I was sure he was not the person for me. I had been convinced. But in that moment of seeing him and having him hug me, it was like I was home. And I know that sounds so cliche, but, like, that last five months of hell just melted. And I just was like, you can do whatever you want to me. I don't care. Like, this is my choice, and I'm making it. And I'll be 18 in two months, so do your worst. I don't care.

John Dehlin [02:26:01] That's what you told your parents?

Becky Loveless [02:26:04] I kind of told myself.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] Oh.

Becky Loveless [02:26:07] But they did know that. At that point, I was like. I said, they did send me away one last time. I. I was still very terrified of them sending me back. I was gonna deal with it if they did.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:21] I was gonna say, like, imagine being scared to, like, even have a hug after all that.

Becky Loveless [02:26:26] Yeah. Oh, that was. That was terrifying. And I know. I know he didn't know that because I hadn't had, like, physical love for a very long time. Because even, like, with my parents, we weren't really allowed to. Like, we didn't even have time to do that. We didn't have time to hug or to talk or to. So I forgot what I was saying.

Alex Loveless [02:26:54] So you didn't have love in that

Samantha Shelley [02:26:55] long five months of touch deprivation?

Becky Loveless [02:26:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:58] On top of everything else.

Becky Loveless [02:27:00] But I. Like I said, I. I was gonna be careful. Cause I didn't want to go back. But at the same time, I was like, I don't care if you send me back. I know that this is where I want to end up in my life, and I'll do whatever. But they sent me away, and I lived with my sister in North Carolina for a while and then came back. And that was in October. I got a nanny job in Park City, and we started seeing each other again.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:32] And

Becky Loveless [02:27:35] he asked me to marry him on my 18th birthday. And. That was. That was hard because it was such a happy, like, triumphant time for me to be like, I'm 18. They can't send me back. I'm finally, like, having my own decision that I'm making and so excited about it. But then I had my family. Some of my family members just were so upset that he was even back in the picture.

Alex Loveless [02:28:21] And it wasn't very happy. It was happy. No, it was happy for us.

Becky Loveless [02:28:24] It was happy for us.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:25] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [02:28:26] It wasn't happy on her side of the family, as far as that goes. I Mean, everybody's nervous. I mean, that's. It's understandable. You know, we were young and, you know, it's what it was, but it wasn't very happy. But we were going forward, but I

Becky Loveless [02:28:42] was still very much going to do it the right way.

Alex Loveless [02:28:46] Yes, that's right.

Becky Loveless [02:28:48] We went and talked to a bishop and we discussed that.

Alex Loveless [02:28:56] Really great bishop.

Becky Loveless [02:28:57] Really.

Alex Loveless [02:28:57] He was.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] He was a.

Alex Loveless [02:28:59] He was a good guy.

Becky Loveless [02:29:00] He was a good guy. We. So I left in April, and he said, okay, so a year. A year from April is what you need to be able to be married in the temple. And it was November, and I don't know how we got him to be okay, but we're like, can we do February?

Samantha Shelley [02:29:24] Yes.

Becky Loveless [02:29:26] But he was okay with that. And that next February, we were married in the Salt Lake Temple. And I. It's very interesting because I remember thinking that this should be the most spiritually beautiful day of my life, because it was in the temple, and I.

Alex Loveless [02:29:52] I

Becky Loveless [02:29:52] didn't feel any of that. And it was hard to admit, but, like, all I cared about was that I was marrying him. But none of the, like, epic spiritual feelings, of joy, of eternal families. I don't know. It wasn't there. And that kind of threw me off. But in that moment, I was like, I don't even care. Like, this is just the next step in life.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:16] And.

Becky Loveless [02:30:17] And I'm happy to take it. And. Yeah. Just assuming that that was the right thing to do. And so we did it, and we did it the right way, and no one could say anything about it. Like, I was done. I was done having to explain myself or to defend myself or say I'm okay. And that was the temple marriage, for me, was my way of being like, see, we did it the right way.

Alex Loveless [02:30:44] And once we got married, her family was all accepting of us from my view, and I was confused. I always remember, like I said before, I'm a good guy, you know, and it was kind of hard, but it was never about that, really. And they were able to finally accept that once we got married, they accepted

Becky Loveless [02:31:03] it, which is kind of tragic that just because we entered a specific building, said some things, and all of a sudden that made it okay.

Alex Loveless [02:31:13] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:31:14] And you were always the same person.

Alex Loveless [02:31:15] Yeah,

Becky Loveless [02:31:18] but that's just. That's just the way it is, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] I mean, I'll just have to say one of the things the Mormon Church gets wrong over and over and over again. There's a song in a Broadway musical called the Fantastics. And the song, basically, the Chorus is make sure you never say no. And it's about parents who realize, don't ever tell your kid no because your kid's going to do the thing you tell them not to do.

Becky Loveless [02:31:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:46] And this is going to seem like an extreme tangent, but I had. I had a ex Mormon sex worker come to me and Natasha Alford Parker recently to talk about doing an episode on being an ex Mormon sex worker. And, you know, she talked about bishops and stake presidents that come to her, you know, as clients. But. But in that, she said that she hopes sex work is never legalized because most of her clients are motivated to come to her. Because it's illegal. Because the illegality of it makes it. It more interesting or makes it hotter.

Becky Loveless [02:32:28] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:28] It's like a cornerstone of eroticism.

John Dehlin [02:32:30] Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm just saying, like, whether it's pornography and masturbation or your parents trying to keep you from Alex.

Becky Loveless [02:32:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:39] The surefire way to make you want to be with this guy forever is to send you to a concentration camp for five months.

Becky Loveless [02:32:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:49] So that you can never see the guy anymore. Like, they just guaranteed that you were gonna go to him.

Becky Loveless [02:32:55] Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [02:32:56] Am I wrong?

Becky Loveless [02:32:57] No, we've. We've actually discussed that between us. Like, we still think we would have ended up together, but at the same time, I think that in and of itself, I was like, if I'm willing to go through that hell for this guy, I will go through anything to stay with him.

Alex Loveless [02:33:14] But. But even before Lifeline having to fight to be together, it created that. I mean, it's just anything you fight for in your life, you don't want to let go of it. And that's kind of what that created. And. But like she said, and I think that we would have always ended up together. There was something. There was a connection between the both of us.

Becky Loveless [02:33:33] But I agree that that is definitely something. And I hope that us as parents, we've sort of figured that out a bit, that kids are going to do what they're. They're. We were told no in so many different colorful ways, but we still found a way. Like, if kids. Teenagers, want to do something or experiment or try something, that's out of the boundaries of what's okay.

Becky Loveless [02:33:57] They're gonna find a way to do it. And I think the best thing you can do is just give them guardrails. Say, have at it. Like, we're here for you. When you trip and fall and find out something's not for you. Like, I don't. I don't Ever feel like even just because I'm a parent, I know what's best for my kid, I might not. Like, I really feel like they come the way they are and as an expansion of like my, my ability to see that I just don't know the best thing for everybody. Like implementing that into my own children and being like, what do you think?

Becky Loveless [02:34:37] What's your opinion on this? If you choose something, I can say, I wouldn't choose that way. But if it ends up being great, that's wonderful. If it doesn't, I'm here for you.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:46] Like, did you guys use birth control before Lifeline?

Becky Loveless [02:34:53] Sometimes.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:54] Okay.

Becky Loveless [02:34:56] Sometimes. That was because of his sister, honestly.

Alex Loveless [02:35:01] Really, my salt of the earth, sweet sister.

Becky Loveless [02:35:04] Yeah. She was the only one who knew, but she had left the church and she was kind of like our little

Alex Loveless [02:35:14] person that we could be honest with.

John Dehlin [02:35:15] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:35:16] And there to help and just try and make sure we were okay.

Alex Loveless [02:35:21] No, like I said, I mean, I understand her parents issue with us. I mean, like I said, we were obsessive with each other and we could be possessive of each other. I mean I'm not apologetic of it because that's what teenagers can do, but it's a reality of what can happen. And, but we, we wanted to be with each other.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:45] And I imagine the obsession is heightened by all the restrictions.

Alex Loveless [02:35:50] Well, and you're having to be secretive and.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:52] Yeah. Creates way more risks.

Becky Loveless [02:35:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:56] Like again, the thing of if you're so scared to tell your parents you've been drinking, you're more likely to get in a car with a friend who's been drinking. Like my mum. And most parents in England are very much the like, I'd way rather you call me than like be in an unsafe situation. Like you won't get in trouble. And I feel like.

Alex Loveless [02:36:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hindsight's 20 20. But you know, like I, you know, for the first year plus of us being together, we just wanted to be together. And if we could have just had open arms into her home, I, I, so much of this wouldn't have happened. And I'm telling the past, I don't really know what would have happened, but I believe that it wouldn't have happened if we would have just had open arms into that. But I also see that's difficult for some parents to do.

Becky Loveless [02:36:40] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:42] I mean no child deserves to go through what you went through at that place.

Alex Loveless [02:36:46] Nope.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:46] Whatever. The, whatever could have happened before, like no way.

John Dehlin [02:36:51] Really quickly. We don't have sponsors or do anything like that. But if any of you are able to like subscribe to the podcast channel, like it it, share it, comment on it. That really helps with the algorithm because we really want this episode. We want the algorithm to share it far and wide because these troubled teen centers and wilderness camps are all throughout Utah and we're glad Hell Camp is getting good exposure. But the more people subscribe to the channel, Facebook, tick tock, YouTube, etc, and like it and share it, the more pressure it'll put on Governor Gary Cox, the Utah State legislature, the Mormon Church, just like with Jody Hildebrandt to clamp down on this stuff, to change the laws, to make these, to either get rid of these institutions or to make them ethical.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] So if you don't mind, please subscribe, like and comment and subscribe to Stuff on the Shelf while you're at it. Okay, so really quickly, so you get out, you get married. I, you know, because we're three, we're almost three hours in, I, I want to save the second half. I want to save your faith journey maybe for a second part.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:38:08] And keep today's story to how this impacted you and any final thoughts even up till today. So, so like think about the outline you put together and let's just talk about the impact of this and then how you awaken to it. So yeah, so like some would say, hey, happy ending, you ended up getting married in the temple, finding the true love of your life and you got married and yeah, you went through five hard months. But then Alex, when you were talking about its impact, it sounded like, and I'm not trying to seed this, it sounded like you've observed a longer term impact that this had on her. So I'm not prying.

Alex Loveless [02:38:52] No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:52] And I'm not trying to fish for there being long term or, or even chronic impact, but starting with you, Becky Loveless, were there residual negative implications in your life? And if so, let's talk about as much as you want about that.

Becky Loveless [02:39:10] Oh yeah, first and foremost, I became absolutely obsessed with being perfect. It had instilled in me this fear of messing up. I needed, I had so much to prove. I had to do everything by the book, by the Mormon book. That was because that was the truth.

Becky Loveless [02:39:37] So if I were to in any way, shape or form be able to make recompense for the mistakes that I had made, from that point on, I had to do everything perfectly. And in our relationship, that was not how Alex was at all. He is, he's much more of a in the moment and trusting himself, whereas I had to lifeline Taught me to outsource all of my trust. I needed to look outside of myself to make sure I was doing the right thing. It was never okay. I couldn't trust myself, of course, because anything that I felt or thought was just inherently wrong. Because that's what was instilled in me for the past five months was that even if I felt like it was true or knew it was true, I couldn't say that I had to go with what the authority in my life was telling me in that moment.

Becky Loveless [02:40:33] So I became obsessed over following the prophet. I became obsessed with scripture reading. Just living my religion to its fullest extent was how I was going to pay for the mistake that I made. Because still, in that moment in my life, I felt like I had deserved to be put in a place like that because of the sin that I had committed. So I was in this place of, I'm gonna make sure I do everything right. And I think that created a lot of strain on our relationship in that first year.

Alex Loveless [02:41:14] First year was very difficult. Our marriage has gotten nothing but better every single year. But that first year was very difficult.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:22] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:41:23] Because to me, getting married meant that we started a family. Because in that moment, I don't know where I'd read it, but. But some prophet somewhere had said that you're not supposed to wait to have children like you get married to have children. And even at that time, I thought that you shouldn't have sex unless you were trying to get pregnant. So that was difficult. I ended up getting on birth control for a year, and I hammered it into him for a very long time that we were sinning, that it was not okay for us to be doing this and we needed to start a family.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:07] Which was backed up by teaching materials at the time. I remember the institution manual had a whole section on birth control. Yeah, it's like, don't do that.

Becky Loveless [02:42:15] Well. And I don't know, there's a. There was a talk that was given to the mothers in Zion by Ezra Jeff Benson.

John Dehlin [02:42:21] Yes.

Becky Loveless [02:42:21] I lived and breathed.

John Dehlin [02:42:25] What did that talk basically say?

Becky Loveless [02:42:27] Basically, that if you're married, you should not wait to have children for any worldly reasons. You should also not curtail. That word is weird, but it's in there. Curtail the number of children you have. So to me, that was like, you should never use birth control. You should never stop children from coming into your family ever, because you're forcing those spirit children into less Mormon families if you don't, you should have as many as you possibly can, because there's

John Dehlin [02:43:01] a fixed number of spirits up in heaven. And if you don't have a bunch

Becky Loveless [02:43:05] of babies, they're going to someone else

John Dehlin [02:43:07] to, like Catholic families or Jewish families or Muslim families or secular families, right?

Becky Loveless [02:43:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:13] Those spirits will be raised in evil, basically.

Becky Loveless [02:43:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:43:15] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:43:16] Yeah. And definitely that my place was in home and that I needed to be the nurturer and the homemaker, and that was my place.

John Dehlin [02:43:25] And not to work.

Becky Loveless [02:43:26] No, not at all. Nope. That was. That was not an option. That was. And I had to follow that. Like, even if I wanted something different, that didn't matter. I'd already messed up once. Like, why sit and try and question again? Like, why question at all ever? You do what we tell you to because this is the best way for you to find happiness and joy in this life and in the next. So that was it. And if at any time he veered off or questioned, it was just like, what are you doing? Like, it was.

Alex Loveless [02:44:05] It was okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:06] It's.

Alex Loveless [02:44:06] It's a very emotional subject for me to talk about because my kids, my wife, of course, are everything to me. So talking about those times when she was. Wanted to have children and I wasn't ready or I wanted them further apart or whatever it was, it makes me feel bad just because they're my life. But it was very difficult to feel pressured into having kids.

Becky Loveless [02:44:36] And, you know, when you were 20 and I was 19, our last two

Alex Loveless [02:44:39] boys, who we just love completely and they're closer together, and we had our third, and he was a baby. He was basically a baby. And she was ready to have our next one, and I just didn't know what to do. It was very difficult. But obviously we don't regret any of that. These are just experiences. They're not regrets. It's just. Just experiences.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:59] That would be so hard.

Alex Loveless [02:45:00] Yeah. And I mean, going through my time in that life of trying to figure out financially, I mean, it was very important to me that I get things in order and support. And the more people that I bring into this world, the more I have to support. So it's, you know, just kind of all that back and forth was very difficult to me.

Becky Loveless [02:45:17] All that was put on you because.

Alex Loveless [02:45:19] But your whole. Your whole growing up. There will always be a way. There'll always be a way. And that's probably true. Yeah, that's fine. But it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that it's not difficult. And it was so. But it was. It was okay.

The Long-Term Impact of the Troubled Teen Industry

John Dehlin [02:45:34] So you were super intense about religiosity in the marriage oh yeah, you were gonna. I mean, I often say it was a tough realization for me when I realized that the secret sauce in Mormonism is shame. And I don't know that it's intentional, but I've said this before, this idea of Jesus and he died for our sins and the atonement and he suffered for our sins. It's such a beautiful story. On the one hand, wow, our older brother died and suffered so that we can return to our Heavenly Father. What a beautiful story. On the other hand, it just means that any mistake you make, you're causing Jesus to suffer, you contributed to his pain and suffering and ultimately death.

John Dehlin [02:46:18] And then you're on this shame cycle of any mistake you make, you're contributing to Jesus's suffering and you're back and you need to repent. And so you need to confess to your bishop and be more righteous and pay more money. Like what the church gets. Like, why in the world, consciously or unconsciously, would the Mormon Church fund these troubled teen centers? Because what they get when, when someone comes out of these centers, hopefully is a super devout Becky Loveless who's getting married in the temple to do everything perfectly and whipping her husband Alex into shape so that they're paying their tithing, having lots of Mormon babies, serving in the church, doing everything the church teaches so that you can make up for all the awful things you did to Jesus to cause him to suffer.

John Dehlin [02:47:08] So it's the shame wheel. It's like this hamster wheel of shame where the church wins because of the abuse that they paid for. They paid this center to abuse, to torment the children so that they could become extra devout Mormons and then pay the church more money. It's a very effective business model.

Becky Loveless [02:47:30] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:33] Just a minor tangent, but what's also interesting is because like you said, the, these centers are appealing to people outside of Utah. There have to be kids that are going back to abusive home lives, like with abusive parents that have just been taught to be more subservient to that. That and to other toxic religious systems where same thing, they're just going to apply what they learned, which is just obedience no matter what.

John Dehlin [02:47:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:56] In like, there's no. Again, that's what's so insidious about everything you're learning at those places is there's. The application is going to vary dramatically depending on what you're going home to. And it seems like there's a high chance you're not necessarily going home to something that good if you ended up there to begin with, felt your parents were loving and you kind of had a better situation, hence why you went on drugs, I'm sure.

Becky Loveless [02:48:18] Yeah, yeah. And I, I can attest to that because you are absolutely trained to just listen to authority and never to yourself. You are not a trustworthy person. What you think, what you feel you have to. And, and that was absolutely ingrained into us. It lifeline. You could not a phrase was don't question your oldcomer. And you could use that for the silliest things. But like it was something that if your oldcomer said that you had to just, okay, sorry. Like, except for you can't say anything. You just would be like,

Samantha Shelley [02:49:01] sorry, anti therapy. Yeah.

Becky Loveless [02:49:05] So yeah, that would be a great business model for Mormons because you then turn that authority over to the church and to the prophet and to the Book of Mormon and to your priesthood leaders and never allow yourself or your thoughts or your emotions or your feelings to come into play when it's decision making time. When you decide if you want to spend that extra 10% on something else besides tithing, don't ask yourself that. You know the rule. Don't question your oldcomer, don't question your prophet. So yeah, it definitely bred that in me for sure and I'm sure many other children who went through Lifeline or similar institutions.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:51] How did your relationship with God play out while you're in that place?

Becky Loveless [02:49:58] I in that, in that time I absolutely had to believe in God and believe that there was somebody out there looking out for me because I felt completely abandoned by everyone else.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:13] So

Becky Loveless [02:50:17] it was a day in and day out prayer, like, please let me out of here. And a lot of times I would say, okay, I understand that I did something really bad. So there was dialogue with God in there.

Becky Loveless [02:50:34] And like I said, I would spend those two hours reading my scriptures where everyone else was going to school. And so that also just like instilled it in me that like God was the only thing that was going to save me from this place and I had to prove it to him that I was worthy to leave. And I would only be let out when I was worthy enough, when I had paid enough, when I had suffered for my own sins enough. Cause for whatever reason in that moment, I didn't believe that Christ's atonement was enough for me because it couldn't be. Because why would I be here suffering if that was the truth?

Becky Loveless [02:51:15] So I believed very much that my sexual sin was too much for Christ to take upon himself because I was enduring the suffering for it. And I Didn't understand how or why that worked. But that was kind of my relationship with God. It was a lot of dialogue of like, am I good enough to leave yet? Like, have I suffered enough to leave yet?

John Dehlin [02:51:40] Did they have you convinced God approved of you being there?

Becky Loveless [02:51:44] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was not a question. We were, we were supposed to be there. It was because if he didn't want us there, we wouldn't be there. God is all powerful. He's all knowing, he's all loving. If he didn't want us to be there, if we didn't need to be there, then we wouldn't. All of us were there for a reason, and all of us were there for a reason together. And if you believe in God and he's the one pulling the strings, then, yeah, he's the one who's putting you there. He's the one who will allow you to leave when you are ready, when he thinks you are. And staff was God because they dictated when you were ready to move up in the. In the ranks. So, yeah, definitely. The need to appease authority was a huge part of that.

John Dehlin [02:52:43] And that can't be good to have your view of God being that he wants you to be tortured for your mistakes, like, right. To believe that God wants your torture.

Becky Loveless [02:52:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:55] Can't be good for your.

Becky Loveless [02:52:57] And it didn't make sense to me because I'd been told my whole growing up life that Christ suffered for my sins so I wouldn't have to. But here I was in this situation and it didn't make sense to me, but I was going to take it because if God didn't want me there, then he would get me out.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:20] So.

John Dehlin [02:53:24] Okay, so I think we want to cover your, maybe your family's faith journey in a separate episode. What else, what else would y' all like to say about. I mean, there's going to be people that, like, they're googling lifeline and they find this, or, you know, they're like, huh, curious about these troubled teen centers and this comes up. What else do you want to say about the impact of this in your lives or any, you know, any other final things?

Becky Loveless [02:53:52] I. I think I'll start with that. People who are put through these treatment centers come out with more trauma than they had when they came in, bar none. Like, there's no, there's no question to that. There is a lack of recognizing levels of care that I think needs to take place. A lot of these kids are being sent here without ever seeing a therapist, without ever even trying outpatient therapy. They're just sent to residential treatment centers where they, of course, feel abandoned and have all of this emotional trauma and trauma that's added to the trauma they're already feeling.

Becky Loveless [02:54:38] I definitely have things that have caused issues in my life, like the scrupulosity, religious scrupulosity is a huge one for me. My inability to trust myself ever. Always. The fear in the back of my mind, as silly as it sounds, that if I do something really wrong, I'm gonna get punished and that there's no escaping that. Yeah, I would say those are some of the things that I'd like to finish off with, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:55:13] Anything you want to add, Alex?

Alex Loveless [02:55:15] Not really. I mean, I didn't experience it. I'm seeing it from secondhand. And it's just been recently in my life, that life, for whatever reason. I don't know if it's because I'm preoccupied with everything else in my daily life, but really was able to do my best to put myself in her shoes.

Alex Loveless [02:55:31] And the reality. Putting myself back to being 17, 18 years old and being dropped off in a place like that and how. How awful that is and that I believe a lot of these kids, the reason they are, have the issues they have, is probably abandonment issues. And then they get put somewhere like that, which would probably only worsen the problem.

Alex Loveless [02:55:58] And so I just think there needs to be a lot more regulation in systems like these. Talking with some of the experts on it, they. There's not a lot of proof that live in youth camp places like this have any kind of a good success rate. So.

John Dehlin [02:56:20] Yeah. Well, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And if a parent is thinking about putting their kid in there, I mean, your story really expresses, I think, how you feel. Anything you want to say to a parent that's thinking about sending their kid to a troubled teen center or wilderness survival camp in Utah.

Becky Loveless [02:56:43] Yeah. Don't. Don't. There was nothing I wanted more than to be with my family at that time. There was nothing I needed more than to be with my family. And if there are problems, that's a family problem that needs to be addressed. It's not just the kid that's acting out because the kid wants to, because it's fun, because it's this. There's underlying issues that I guarantee siblings or parents have a part in. And in my opinion, family therapy needs to happen first. Absolutely. That needs to be. Because, like I said, the thing I wanted most was to be with my family and feel loved and supported by them in a Emotional, physical way that being sent to a treatment center, residential treatment center, just completely thwarted and caused more problems.

Why These Programs Persist and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:57:45] So as someone who spent six years training for a psychology PhD, can I blow your mind about something?

Samantha Shelley [02:57:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:52] So there's, there's two types. There's two main types of clinical and counseling psychology, adult psychology, and child psychology. I blew my mind to learn this. Child psychology is spent primarily not with children, but with parents. It's teaching parents how to parent. Teaching parents how to set up an environment that will lead to thriving children. So in child psychology, you focus on the parents and in this whole system, like you said, is brilliant. It's, it's often the parent that needs the tools and the education and the training and I'll say it, the therapy.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:37] To be able to create an environment where kids will flourish. But these troubled teen centers prevent the parents from getting the help they need to heal themselves so that then they can create a healthy environment for their kids. And it all gets put on the kid as the problem.

Becky Loveless [02:58:57] Exactly. Does that resonate a hundred percent. That is what happens day in and day out at places all around here, 20 minutes from here, and nothing's being done about it.

Alex Loveless [02:59:11] And I'll just add that, that how we talk about therapy and a lot of people won't delve into that. And we decided as a couple years ago to go to marriage counseling. And it was one of the best things we could have ever done for ourselves. And it's tough to navigate a life with one, with two people together all the time. And learning how to do that from someone else, from an outside perspective or how to handle kids situations has completely changed my life and my outlook on life.

Becky Loveless [02:59:45] The stigma around therapy is I, I

Alex Loveless [02:59:46] just implore people to. It's not, you're not weak, you, you're strong for doing that. And even, even if you don't think you need it, even if you're not really having issues, to go there and get some perspectives is, is very helpful.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:01] Yeah,

Becky Loveless [03:00:05] I agree.

John Dehlin [03:00:08] And it, it sounds like you used to love your parents and have a

Becky Loveless [03:00:12] relationship with them immensely. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:00:14] I imagine there are children for whom this destroys their relationship with their parents.

Becky Loveless [03:00:21] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the amount of people that when I tell them the story, they're like, you're still okay with your parents. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:30] Because I mean, there are commenters, not, not about your parents, but their commenters saying it's child abuse for a parent to put their kids in these centers. Now maybe the parents don't know what's going on.

Becky Loveless [03:00:40] Yeah. Most of Them. Don't.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:42] Victims of it too.

Becky Loveless [03:00:44] Absolutely. They're just as manipulated. That's the sad fact.

Alex Loveless [03:00:47] Just brought up an emotion. We had a discussion with our parents recently about that, and they broke down because they didn't know about a lot of the stuff that had gone on in there. And as you can see from that website, it looks very welcoming and opening and open, but there's a lot else going on behind the doors.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:07] Yeah. I feel like if any parent could actually be a fly on the wall, no parent would be okay with it. And if they were, it would be because it happened to them or something.

Becky Loveless [03:01:16] Yeah.

Alex Loveless [03:01:17] The second she was able to tell her dad that she didn't need to be there anymore, he came and got her the next day.

Becky Loveless [03:01:23] Yep. Yep. My parents are amazing people. And like I said, they were doing the best that they could with what information they had.

John Dehlin [03:01:34] Oh. Because Maven asked that, how'd you get out? And so when you told your parents, when you finally felt safe after five months to tell them how you really felt when you weren't. When you didn't have a spy.

Becky Loveless [03:01:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:01:45] Sent with you to force you to say that everything was great, you told your parents that it was not healthy. And what happened?

Becky Loveless [03:01:52] They pulled me out the next day.

John Dehlin [03:01:53] Oh, wow.

Becky Loveless [03:01:54] They went in. They went to the facility. And I didn't know this, but, like I said, the staff members took them aside and said, do not take your daughter out. You're gonna lose your daughter if you do this. And they said, we're taking her out anyway. Like, this is not okay. And they actually did that to me in group. They sent me to a group session where all of the people in group told me I was making horrible if I left with my parents. Like, I needed to tell my parents that I needed to stay.

Becky Loveless [03:02:22] So it was just this big manipulation ring. But somehow we were able to get out of that situation. And not a lot of kids are. Not a lot of parents are. There's a lot of situations that don't end up as nice as mine.

Becky Loveless [03:02:39] And like I said, had I had a vengeful bone in my body, I don't know why. I don't, but I just don't. I could have easily gotten into some pretty intense drugs and really showed it to my parents, like, oh, you want to see a kid who needs to go to Lifeline? I'll show you a kid.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:59] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [03:03:01] But we were. We were able to work through that. And I think it was mostly just the plain fact that, like, I knew. I knew that they were Just doing the best that they could with what information they had. And the information was coming from the Mormon religion.

John Dehlin [03:03:20] Yeah. Well, this has been super powerful, and I'm really glad we did this episode. And we're not done, so we. Maybe not today, but we are going to do a part two, because I think your Mormon story deserves its own focus.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:39] Okay. Yeah. And the rebuilding over the years that must have taken place from.

Becky Loveless [03:03:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:44] Because a lot of people are like. They're like, are they still Mormon? You know, did something happen? That should be a cliffhanger. Right.

Becky Loveless [03:03:51] Wouldn't you like to find out?

John Dehlin [03:03:54] So we'll. We'll schedule a part two.

Becky Loveless [03:03:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:03:58] Where we'll. Because you've got. There's still more. There's prepper stuff. There's neo fundamentalists. There's Julie Rowe. There's.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:06] Yeah, the Julie Rowe thing alone.

John Dehlin [03:04:09] Yeah. Like, you received blessings from Julie Rowe. Oh, yeah. Like your parents moved to freaking Independence, Missouri to be usher in Jesus's second coming. There's Ammon Bundy. Any other things I'm forgetting as teasers about your story?

Becky Loveless [03:04:27] You pretty much got it. I mean, we might run across a few crazy things, but. Yeah, I lived a crazy life.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] Okay. Well, you all seem so healthy and well adjusted.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:38] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [03:04:39] I know how to put on a good face, too.

John Dehlin [03:04:42] You learned that.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:44] Lifestyle. What's it called?

Samantha Shelley [03:04:45] Lifeline.

John Dehlin [03:04:46] At Lifeline, you learned. Oh, that's dark, dark humor.

Becky Loveless [03:04:49] Well, you gotta laugh sometimes.

John Dehlin [03:04:53] Well, Becky Loveless and Alex Loveless, thank you both so much for being willing to come on Mormon Stories and hopefully help save at least some teams from being sent to these programs.

Becky Loveless [03:05:07] Yeah. John, thank you so much for allowing us to tell this story because it's getting squashed a lot.

John Dehlin [03:05:13] Yeah.

Becky Loveless [03:05:13] So I really appreciate you giving it space.

John Dehlin [03:05:15] Yeah. Oh, our pleasure. And, Sammy, thanks for bringing this to me. And thanks for co hosting. You're always a lovely, thoughtful, wise co host.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:23] Yeah, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [03:05:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:26] I'm so glad you guys ended up together. We are, too.

John Dehlin [03:05:32] Now, Sammy does. We mentioned the beginning. Sammy does. Faith transition, kind of life coaching. The website is samanthshellecoaching.com and that's Shelley with an ey. Right. Okay. And then, of course, subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast. Subscribe to Zelf on the Shelf podcast and for Mormon Stories, if you value this type of content and you want to see it continue, you can become a monthly donor by going to MormonStories.org clicking on the Donate button. Becoming a monthly donor. We pay our staff and we require your support. To keep this going. So. So please support us if you can. If you want to support zelfontheshelf, how do you do it? Please?

Samantha Shelley [03:06:10] Patreon.com selfontheshelf Although we also have, like PayPal and Venmo LinkedIn, our YouTube videos,

John Dehlin [03:06:16] and it's really, they do great fun, thoughtful, witty, sometimes savage content.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:25] We did the best roast of John. I think one of our best videos ever was us and Nemo roasting John in this studio.

John Dehlin [03:06:32] That was fun.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:33] Unbelievably good.

Becky Loveless [03:06:34] And Sam's a wonderful life coach. She's a personal experience.

John Dehlin [03:06:39] All right, well, beautiful, thanks for joining us today. Thanks to Julian and Maven, Julia and Maven and Gerardo and Brooklyn for all they do on staff to make this possible. Thanks to our board that oversees the Open Stories foundation to make all this possible. Thanks to our donors. You make this possible. And of course, thanks to our viewers and listeners that make a healthy chat that subscribe and like to our channels. You can find us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and we're growing, so keep supporting us. Thanks for the support. And tune in to part two with Becky and Alex Loveless to hear about their amazing faith journey after after Becky survived a Utah troubled teenage center.

Becky Loveless [03:07:27] All right.

John Dehlin [03:07:28] All right. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.