John Dehlin

Introduction and Background on the Book

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, it's John Dehlin. Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. It is January 19, 2021, and I am doing something that I rarely do. I am re recording an episode. Yesterday I recorded an episode on Mormon Stories podcast, kind of a monologue about a book called the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spence W. Kimball. And I didn't feel good about the recording after. As soon as I recorded it, I felt like it was ranty. I felt like it was angry. And in the. I was so angry that this book is still being sold at Deseret Book that I called on, on, on listeners to.

[00:00:44] To burn the book, to ban it and to burn it. And then almost immediately I got feedback from. You know, some people love the presentation because they were. They're angry at the book too, and it's caused so much harm. But I also received feedback from listeners who either felt like the presentation was just angry and ranty and not helpful. I even received feedback from a German listener, a heartfelt German listener, who said, you know, John, I just have to tell you, I'm from Germany. And when you start talking about book banning and book burning, you, you remind me of, of, of kind of a. Kind of Nazism and, and the Hitler regime in World War II.

[00:01:24] And that just really shook me. And I was already feeling bad about the episode, but that just made me realize, you know, yes, we can be angry, yes, we can be upset. Yes, there are people being harmed every day within a Mormon context, as well as people being helped every day in a Mormon context. But regardless, you know, John, what type of voice do you want to have? I asked myself. And I want to be a voice that's constructive and that, that holds the church to account, but also is trying to come from a healing place. So I, I decide, I, I thought, should I re edit this thing or should I just re record it?

[00:02:04] I decided to re record it. And so what you are seeing now is a re recording of this episode. And the, the episode is called the Miracle of why it should be Removed from Deseret Book and how you can help. And I'm going to do my best to be really concise in this presentation. But for those of you who don't know, for those of you who have never been Mormon, or for those of you who are young and don't remember, once upon a time, there was a Mormon prophet, Syrian revelator named Spencer W. Kimball.

[00:02:37] Spencer W. Kimball happened to be the prophet or president of the church during most of my childhood and teenage years. And he was very much Beloved as this kind of short man who was kind of cute looking and oftentimes seemed to speak from a place of love. But this book that he wrote and published became one of the four or five most important books in Mormonism in the 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond. Obviously, we've talked a lot about Mormon doctrine, which was almost like scripture to Mormons back then. Some of the other books were James Talmadge's Jesus the Christ and Articles of Faith and a marvelous work and a wonder.

[00:03:20] But, you know, this book, Miracle Forgiveness, was so important that it was one of the few books that Mormon missionaries were allowed to read while they were on their missions. And it was. It's the type of book that to this day, Mormon bishops or stake presidents or mission presidents, when they're dealing with a member of the church who has sinned, who has masturbated, or who has committed premarital sex or who is gay, this is the book that would be given to them by the bishop to help them set them on the path of repentance.

[00:03:53] And so this is a super important book. And to be honest, I had the impression that this book was no longer offered at Deseret Book. And so it kind of went off my radar a little bit. But then I had a listener reach out to me and, and call my attention to the fact that this book is still being sold at Deseret book today in 2021. And as of yesterday, January 18, 2021, I went up to, to Deseret Book, the website, and I found that sure enough, this book is, is being sold today at Deseret Book.

[00:04:31] And, and I just have to say this is not just unfortunate book. This is not just a sad book. This is not just an outdated book. This is, this is a really, really, really harmful book that I believe has contributed to anxiety, depression and even suicidal ideation and likely, you know, death by suicide for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Mormons over the years. And that, that may seem like really exaggerated, extreme rhetoric.

[00:05:08] So just bear with me while I kind of share with you some of the main passages from this book and then I'll let you decide if you are as concerned as I am that this, that this book is still being sold today at Deseret Book. And, and if you'll stay to the end, I'm going to make a call to what the LDS Church, I feel like what they need to do to change and to make or to right this wrong. And I'm going to give you listeners a few things that you can do listeners and viewers, a few things that you can do to help fix this problem, because I think we're going to need your help to fix this problem.

[00:05:47] So, just a couple disclaimers. I just want to say that I have a warm place in my heart for Spence W. Kimball. He's passed away, but he's a beloved prophet, and I think we all believe that everyone's doing their best whenever they're doing it. I think he meant well when he wrote this book. I've actually interviewed his son, Ed Kimball. It's one of the most important interviews I've ever done on Mormon Stories podcast. I do want to refer you all to that. It's a great episode. And, and also I just want to say I'm not a big fan of, of banning books or, or burning books.

[00:06:24] And so I just want to. I just want to go on the record as saying that that's not the way to deal with things. The way to deal with things is to have thoughtful, constructive dialogue. And so the, the main reason why I. I view this book as particularly damaging is because of the Mormon teaching that is sort of core to Mormonism, and that's that, you know, obviously none of us are speaking directly with God these days or potentially ever.

[00:06:58] If you're like me, you've prayed, you've tried to talk to God, and at. At best, you've had these thoughts or feelings where you weren't sure if they came from God or not. But at worst, if you're like me, you're like, God doesn't talk to me. I wish he did. And then, and then oftentimes what the church does, the Mormon Church and other churches is they claim that they're prophets. They're the ones that get to speak to God. And this starts with Joseph Smith, and it goes to Brigham Young and all the different prophets and presidents of the church down to now. Mormons believe that Russell M.

[00:07:29] Nelson, the current president and prophet, talks directly to God and then tells us what God thinks. And that's what we were all taught growing up about Spence W. Kimball. And by the way, just because a prophet dies within Mormonism doesn't mean that their words are no longer relevant. So. So to this day, for the average orthodox, active believing Mormon, if Spencer W. Kimball said it and he was a prophet of God, then it must be God's word. And so what makes this book particularly damaging and dangerous is that these really awful teachings that I'm about to show you were uttered and written by a man that orthodox Mormons believe speaks directly to God and for God, and that's what makes it so problematic.

Harmful Teachings on Sexuality and Identity

[00:08:17] So I'm now going to share with you the deeply harmful teachings in this book. And you can be the judge for whether you're outraged or not by the fact that in 2021, this book is still being sold. And my basic premise, if my overall premise for this presentation, is harmful teachings are one thing. Harmful teachings taught as the words of God can be deadly. And I do believe that this book is deadly. And now I'm going to make that case. So let me just share with you some lowlights of teachings from this book. So here we go. Let me read to you what Spencer W.

[00:08:58] Kimball says about homosexuality. He says homosexuality is an ugly sin, repugnant to those who find no temptation in it, as well as to many past offenders who are seeking a way out of its clutches. So he's calling homosexual, homosexual behavior ugly. And he doesn't distinguish between homosexual thoughts and feelings necessarily, and behavior. He calls it homosexuality, which, which, you know, back in, in those times meant the thoughts, feelings and, or the behaviors. He's calling it ugly and repugnant.

[00:09:38] And he's saying that people are in its clutches. Okay, that's, that's pretty severe rhetoric, and I believe it kind of borders on, on hate speech. And I'll explain what I mean by that in just a second. He goes on to say about homosexuality, he says sin in sex practices tends to have a snowballing effect.

[00:10:01] Thus it is that through the ages, perhaps as an extension of homosexual practices, men and women have sunk even to seeking satisfaction with animals. So he's basically saying that homosexuality is low. He's using the term sunk and sin.

[00:10:23] And then he's saying that homosexuality leads to bestiality. And there is no evidence that, that homosexuality leads to bestiality. That's, that's dehumanizing it and animalizing it. And we do know that in the animal kingdom that there is homosexuality.

[00:10:45] But, but when you think about, you know, what's going on here is we know that in the 60s and 70s, some Idaho farm boys, basically some Mormon Idaho farm boys were caught having sex with sheeps and goats and, and animals.

[00:10:59] And that teaching about bestiality crept into some of the missionary worthiness questions as a screener. And as the church started asking that question about bestiality to prospective Mormon missionaries, they started implanting the idea of bestiality in more and more Mormons across the country, to the point where there was a real problem with bestiality, as I understand it with these Mormon boys, particularly in Idaho and Utah.

[00:11:30] But it's not homosexuality that leads to bestiality. I think you could argue that it's promoting the idea of bestiality in every interview that you give to prospective missionaries, Mormon missionaries or youth that promotes bestiality. But, but that's beside the point. The point is to be equating or or connecting homosexuality with bestiality is just, in my view, kind of a not helpful, harmful way to debase and degrade lgbt, our LGBT brothers, sisters and gender non binary and trans people. So anyway, not helpful. Spencer B. Kimball I think it's fair to say that this type of rhetoric counts as fear mongering and as dehumanizing of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

[00:12:24] Let me go on and read more about what he has to say about homosexuality. He writes on page 82 of Miracle Forgiveness after consideration of the evil aspects, the ugliness and prevalence of the evil of homosexuality, the glorious thing to remember is that it is curable and forgivable. Certainly it could be overcome, for there are numerous happy people who were once involved in its clutches and who have since completely transformed their lives. Therefore, to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond, how can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore.

[00:13:08] It can be done. Now, again, as someone who got a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, who has published possibly more than any other human on the planet on the LGBTQ Mormon experience, because I have something like 12 peer reviewed journal articles now in respectable peer reviewed scientific psychology journals, this is what my dissertation was about.

[00:13:34] As someone who probably knows as much as anyone about the science behind LGBTQ Mormons, well, first of all it's it's not helpful to use terms like evil and ugly and repugnant and clutches and bloody when you're talking about our LGBTQ Mormon brothers and sisters, but more importantly, to teach that that same sex sexuality or being gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or or gender non binary to teach that those things are curable and easily curable is extremely harmful or damaging. I studied surveyed over 1,600 LGBTQ Mormons. Two thirds attempted to change their sexual orientation. About a thousand of the 1600 attempted to change their sexual orientation.

[00:14:28] Literally zero percent of those who tried to change their sexual orientation reported that they were successful in eliminating their same sex attraction and the overwhelming majority were not successful in changing their behavior. To the contrary, something like 40% reported significant harm in their attempts to change their sexual orientation, you're four times as likely to report any benefit, 10 significantly more likely to report harm than any benefit whatsoever. And it's completely ineffective. So, you know, now reparative therapy, conversion therapy is illegal in several states across the country. The church is backing off. Even the church now is backing off this teaching, which makes it all the more egregious.

[00:15:15] That Desert book is still selling a book which promotes conversion therapy or reparative therapy. Incredibly damaging and completely unscientific. And so I just want to say that, that, that, you know, Spencer B. Kimball's rhetoric in the Miracle Forgiveness, you know, in my opinion, teaches LGBTQ Mormons to hate themselves, to think that they're dirty and dark and filthy and loathsome. And it teaches them fall. It gives them false expectations of hope. If a prophet says you can change. If a prophet says you should beat your, you should bruise your head and become bloody, try trying to change your sexual orientation and then you're not able to change it.

[00:15:59] I think that that sort of false hope, false expectation plus damaging unscientific advice leads to thoughts of suicidality. And we know that there's been an, an epidemic of death by suicide within Mormon youth and young adults over the past 30, 40 years, especially since Prop 8, since 2008, that's been well reported.

[00:16:23] And you know, there are a lot of factors to that. But, but one clear factor is hateful and damaging advice and rhetoric that, that honestly, the Mormon Church has gotten better about. Which is all the more reason why I'm confused that this book is still available and sold by Deseret Book when it's so incredibly damaging. One more quote about conversion therapy. Again, Spencer Kimball writes accordingly. Some totally conquer homosexuality in a few months.

[00:16:54] Other linger on with less power and require more time to make the total comeback. The cure is as permanent as the individual makes it. And like the cure for alcoholism, is subject to continued vigilance. Again, not helpful to be comparing homosexuality or LGBTQ identities to a disease like alcoholism. And super unhelpful to make unscientific claims about the efficacy of conversion therapy, reparative therapy, when the opposite is true. There's zero, literally zero effectiveness to it. It's so bad it's being made illegal. And it contributes to depression, anxiety, low self esteem and suicidal ideation, and sometimes even death by suicide. So incredibly harmful. Just for this reason alone, this book should be immediately taken down from Deseret Book and I call on all of you to please help me make that happen.

[00:17:49] Okay, let's move on from LGBTQ issues to the issue of masturbation, Let me read what Spencer B. Kimball says about masturbation. He writes, quote, thus prophets anciently in today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth towards Godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice.

[00:18:26] There's so much wrong with this statement. Number one, it's not masturbation that causes feelings of guilt and shame. What causes feelings of guilt and shame are shaming teaches about masturbation by people like Spencer Kimball, Boyd K. Packer, Markey Peterson and the like.

[00:18:50] And you know, I have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. I have, I've interviewed, literally met with, provided psychotherapy to, as a trainee, provided coaching to now as a coach, thousands of students, of young adults, of adults.

[00:19:12] We now know that not only do, you know, 90 plus percent of all young men and adults masturbate, but more than 50 to, you know, 50, probably 60% of young women and women masturbate. It's a nearly ubiquitous practice.

[00:19:29] Bishops masturbate, stake presidents masturbate, mission presidents masturbate, general authorities and area authorities masturbate, Relief Society presidents masturbate, minority moms masturbate, men, you know, dads masturbate. It's a almost ubiquitous universal practice. And to say that it's dirty and dark and, and you should feel guilty and shameful is, is not helpful when it's so ubiquitous. It's as you, it's almost as ubiquitous as eating food and drinking water and sleeping. But also to, to have it in a book that no young man, and I would add women should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. I, I have met almost no returned missionaries who didn't masturbate on their missions before, after and during.

[00:20:15] So this, this approach to masturbation is so unhelpful. And as someone again, who has a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology who has studied this, by almost all accounts, masturbation is viewed as not only a normal but a healthy practice that has all sorts of physical and psychological benefits, especially you know, before and sometimes even during, you know, the, the time when somebody's in a committed relationship. So anyway, it is just super helpful. And so much guilt and shame and anxiety and depression and even suicidal ideation has been caused by the Mormon church around these teachings about masturbation being evil. And sinful. So what you don't want to do, and what I think is particularly harmful about this book is when leaders in the church create the guilt and shame that they decry.

[00:21:16] What you never want to do as a human or as an organization is offer yourself up as the cure to the disease that you're causing. And I would argue in this case, by shaming everyone about masturbation, you promote it, you encourage it by talking about it all the time, and then by forbidding it, you make it even more likely because there's that forbidden effect.

[00:21:45] And then what you're doing is you're actually, you're creating and increasing the likelihoods of, likelihood of a behavior. And then you're teaching shame around it, and then you're offering yourself, yourself up as the cure. But you're not really curing people. So it just leads to people feeling sad and loathsome and unhappy and depressed and miserable and frankly, sometimes suicidal. So that's another reason why this book is harmful. And to tie masturbation to homosexuality, again, Spencer B. Kimball writes, what is more, it too often leads. It meaning masturbation too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality, for done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality.

[00:22:39] So there's so much that's not helpful about this statement. First of all, masturbation is not a sin. It's not harmful. Secondly, it is not against nature. It's completely aligned with nature. It is ubiquitous. And by definition, if something is totally ubiquitous, if overwhelming percentages of the population engage in the behavior, by definition it's natural.

[00:23:07] But also to say that masturbation leads into mutual masturbation, I, I don't even know where he's getting this teaching. I can just tell you I know almost no one who has sort of this impulse of like, oh my gosh, now that I've masturbated, I want to masturbate with my buddies, my friends.

[00:23:29] No, that, that's not a natural progression. And, and we know that same sex attraction is something that you're, you're born with. It's something that, you know, tied to brain development in the womb, most likely. But, but masturbation doesn't lead to mutual masturbation or everyone will be doing that and they're not. But, but certainly masturbation does not lead to homosexuality or everyone would be gay, like 70, 80% of the population or more would be gay. And they're not um, and again, we've got science now in the modern age to tell us that homosexuality, same sex sexuality and even gender identity is tied to brain development, not to masturbation.

[00:24:19] So again, this is a super harmful teaching that again engages in fear mongering and is unscientific and is deeply problematic. A couple more problems with the miracle of forgiveness. He teaches about, you know, really unhealthy teachings around purity and virginity culture.

[00:24:41] He writes about, you know, sex before marriage, quote. Also far reaching is the effect of loss of chastity, meaning sex before marriage or outside of marriage. He writes, once given or taken or stolen, it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or, or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged if she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed. She is of course, in a more favorable position.

[00:25:13] This is no condemnation where there is, there is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. Now, I don't even have time to get into all that's wrong with this statement, but, but just this idea that you are pure and white and delightsome if you have not had premarital sex, but then as soon as you have had premarital sex, you're like a licked cupcake. You're like chewed gum. You're like a handled Snickers bar or a nail, a board with a nail in it. You know, these are the types of teachings that caused Elizabeth Smart, when she was abducted by Brian David Mitchell, a Mormon, and raped and, and held against her will.

[00:26:07] These were the types of teachings that caused her to feel like she was so damaged that she didn't even need to bother running away and escaping from her captor because she had been taught that once she lost her virginity, even if she was raped, she was somehow damaged goods. And this is a teaching that has plagued Mormonism for decades, if not longer. This virginity culture, this purity culture, and it's so wrong and it's so harmful. You don't lose anything when you have premarital sex. Your, your worth is not affected at all. You are always pure and good and loved and, and, and admired and worthy.

[00:26:53] Again, his language around rape and whether or not the, you know, it's only women that get raped in this, you know, and, and there's sort of questions about did you participate in it, did you enjoy it, and if so, how guilty are you or not? This is just all the wrong messages around rape and then, and then just the Last thing, that it's better to die than to have. So, so he's basically saying that if you're getting raped and you fight it and it leads to your death, it's better to die fighting for your virginity than to have lost your virginity.

[00:27:33] This is so damaging. And it's the type of rhetoric that leads, not just rape victims, but just people who have had premarital sex that makes them feel, feel like their life isn't worth living anymore. It's the type of rhetoric that actually leads to thoughts of suicidal ideation and, or even death by suicide.

[00:27:54] Better dead than unchaste is a really, really harmful teaching. And again, this is a book that's today, January, you know, 18th 19th, 2021 is still being sold by Deseret Book. And you can go up to their website right now and see it continuing with Spencer W. Kimball. He writes, quote, teenage car accidents far exceed those for other ages. But these physical hazards are the lesser ones. The dead may live again, the crippled may be resurrected with whole bodies, but the blighted soul, the scarred life, the violated youth with virtue lost. These are the real tragedies. Again, he's saying that if you have premarital sex, you're crippled.

[00:28:41] Again, why are you picking on on people with disabilities? He's saying you're blighted, you're scarred, you're violated, your virtue has been lost and that you are the real tragedy. Death isn't a tragedy. The real tragedy is losing your virginity.

[00:29:01] Again, I can't emphasize enough how damaging this sort of extreme rhetoric around sexuality. It leads to self hatred, to stigmatizing. And I, I believe as, as someone who has a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, I believe it leads to suicidal ideation and even death by suicide. And before we end, we have to talk about Spence W. Kimball's rhetoric around death by suicide. And I'm just going to warn people, this is a sensitive topic and some people are going to be disturbed by the language here.

Harmful Teachings on Suicide and Mental Health

[00:29:36] But here's what he says. He basically tells a story. Quote, this is Spencer W. Kimball in A Miracle of Forgiveness. A minister acquaintance of mine was found by his wife hanging. His thoughts had taken his life. Certainly he had not come to suicide in a moment, for he had been a happy, pleasant person as I had known him. It must have been a long decline. He even steeper controllable by him at first and perhaps out of hand as he neared the end of the trial trail. No one in his right mind, and especially if he has an understanding of the gospel, will permit himself to arrive at this point of no return.

[00:30:18] Again, so harmful and damaging. These messages are all harmful about death by suicide. To say that it's basically a choice, that it's. That. That suicidal ideation and death by suicide is a result of. Of weakness or faithlessness. To say that, you know, you can, you can't.

[00:30:45] To say there's something weird about once being happy and then being suicidal. Just think about people with, with bipolar diagnoses. They're both happy and they reach such dark, low periods of depression that they become suicidal. But also the chemical and the biological components of this certainly allow for the possibility of once being happy and then wanting to end your life. But also to claim that it can't be a sudden thing. It must have come after many years of sin and faithlessness. No, suicide can be something that, that occurs to somebody in dark and desperate times, in a flash, in a moment, without any premeditation and without any, quote, sin.

[00:31:32] It's just. It's a mental health issue. It's a disease. It's. It's certainly not something that we should be judging and condemning people for. And again, the Mormon church has gotten so much better about talking about this issue, which, which is all the more reason why this book needs to be removed not just from Deseret book, but from, you know, I believe, all the shelves of people who might access it, who would be vulnerable and certainly never recommended by parents or teachers or leaders in the church.

[00:32:07] And just to say that no one who has an understanding of the gospel would ever permit themselves to arrive at this point. It's not suicidal ideation. And death by suicide is so often not a choice. It can be, but it often is, is what people do when they feel desperate and they're trapped and they feel like they have no other alternative. He goes on to write, sometimes the temptation towards suicide comes when a person is bowed in grief at bereavement or feeling inadequate to meet and cope with the difficult situations he encounters to end it all. But this great crime didn't. Does not end it.

[00:32:46] In his right mind. Only a fool would ever consider taking his own life, whatever he meant by this. Please don't demonize or insult or degrade and call people names who end up dying by suicide. That's just mean and harmful and not constructive.

[00:33:09] The church has gotten so much better in its rhetoric, and this book just takes us back. And again, because it's taught by a prophet, seer and revelator, it's gonna still be believed as long as it's on the shelves and not condemned openly.

[00:33:26] So this is just all harmful. And again, I've already made the point that harmful teachings are one thing. Harmful teachings taught as the words of God by a prophet, seer and revelator of God can be dead. So I've already made the point that the Mormon Church has gotten better in its rhetoric around mental health and depression, death by suicide, and LGBTQ issues. I'm not trying to say that that the miracle of forgiveness represents the modern LDS Church view on these issues, even masturbation.

[00:34:03] But this book is prevalent. We were all raised and taught these principles. This book is still on almost every shelf in every Mormon household. It's still recommended by bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents and area authorities and Sunday school teachers and youth teachers, et cetera.

[00:34:23] And so that's the deal is that we can't just, like, stop selling this book or reducing the selling of this book and feel like we've solved the problem. There are generations of, of parents and leaders and teachers who have been taught these principles, who believe that they were taught by a prophet. These books are still on all the shelves all over the world. This book is still being recommended to youth and adults. And again, it's still in print at Deseret Book.

[00:34:54] Again, as of yesterday, January 18, 2021, this book is still being sold by Bi Deseret Book. And to me, that's just outrageous. So here's what I'm asking the Mormon Church to do. We know that the Mormon Church listens to Mormon Stories Podcast and takes what we say.

[00:35:14] You know, my listeners, my interviewees. I know that they listen. And we're asking that they consider the following. Please, Mormon Church, please do all you can to remove this book's availability from, from all bookstores, Seagull Book, Deseret Book, churches, homes. If you could even consider a buyback program where you go and find out wherever the book is sold and either negotiate with booksellers, use your money to buy the book back. Buy the books back at bulk. Everything we can do to keep this book from being put in the hands of those who might be vulnerable, who might take it too seriously. We plead the LDS Church to consider doing this.

[00:35:57] We asked the LDS Church to send out a memo. You know, we know that Spencer W. Kimball sent out a memo in the early 80s telling bishops and stake presidents that oral sex was forbidden. We know that that memo had to be retracted. But we do think that a memo in this case would actually be useful. Please send out a memo to bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, leaders who at the church parents that that this book should not be ever referred to people having doubts or problems, to LGBTQ people, to youth, to young adults, to divorced people. This book is a health hazard.

[00:36:38] It's not just cringy, it's not just unfortunate. It is literally a health hazard, mental health and physical health hazard to anyone who might pick it up because it's written by by a prophet, Syrian Revelator and I would love if the Mormon Church would give a general conference talk apologizing for this book and for the rhetoric that this book has has created and to all of these teachings that are so harmful. If the Church could do something explicit to denounce and distance itself from these teachings like it's done with the blacks in the priesthood rhetoric and the racist rhetoric, it would be so so helpful.

[00:37:20] But there's also things you could do to help today Share this presentation with anyone who you think might benefit from it. Please email Deseret Book. I've given you three email addresses Service deseretbook.com Media inquiryeseretbook.com and HRDept HR Department hrdept deseretbook.com Please email all these departments. If thousands of you flood these emails with your requests to remove the book, I bet within the next few days, weeks or months we can have this book completely removed from Deseret Book. Please call Deseret Book and in your free time please just pick up the phone 1-800-453-4532 in US and Canada, 1-801-517-3369 internationally you can go to my website for those numbers again Mormon stories or YouTube or Facebook.

[00:38:20] Please call Deseret Book and request complain about this book. Explain to them why it's so harmful and please ask them to remove the book. Do your best to try and remove copies of this book from the access of vulnerable people. Talk to your parents, talk to your siblings, talk to your children, talk to bishops, stake presidents, talk to ward members, libraries, anywhere where this book might be available. I'm not recommending book banning or book burning, but it just seems like this book is a health hazard and anything you can do to educate people about the harm of this book and to limit the book's access to vulnerable people.

[00:39:03] Some 16 year old boy or girl that had premarital sex or masturbates or is gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender, they they could stumble on the book, start reading it and immediately start wanting to having anxiety or depression or even suicidal ideation. Please help us, you know, prevent the access of this book to anyone who might be vulnerable. Speak to influencers you know, speak to if you know general authorities, if you know area authorities, if you know stake presidents or bishops, communicate with them and help educate them about the harm of this book.

How to Help Remove This Book from Deseret Book

[00:39:38] And you can even use current LDS Church teachings around same sex sexuality, LGBTQ stuff, around chastity, around depression, around suicidal ideation. Because there are modern statements in the past few years that correct all the a lot of that attempt to correct a lot of the damage that this book has caused. Please help educate our leaders and then please come up to YouTube, please come to Facebook, please come to MormonStories.org and share your experiences with this book. If you've had awful experiences around this book, if it's hurt you, if it's hurt family members of yours, or if you've done things to help make a positive difference, to change things.

[00:40:24] Please share all your experiences either on YouTube at the Mormon Stories Podcast channel, either on Facebook at the Mormon Stories Podcast channel, on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page, or go to MormonStories.org into the post for this episode and share your experiences. Positive, negative, etc we'll have a living testament to not only the damage this book has caused, but also to the good that many of you have done to help fix this cancer. I believe this problem that is vexing Mormonism to this date. Remember the date January 18, 2021. Go to Deseret Book every day until this book is removed and and let's just monitor Deseret Book until they take it down and I promise you I will hold up host a party after Covid's over.

[00:41:14] We'll host a party in Salt Lake City and we will have a celebration to thank the LDS Church and to thank and celebrate all of you who did your part to rid the world of this book that's so damaging. And man, as soon as you find out that this book has been removed from deseretbook.com please let me know and we'll do we'll again promote it and thank we'll thank the LDS Church and Deseret Book for for listening to us. So again I'm going to thank you for listening today. And I'm going to close by saying harmful teachings are one thing. Harmful teachings taught as the word words of God can be deadly.

[00:41:53] Let's get rid of this book, the miracle of forgiveness. Let's incorporate new teachings about healthy sexuality, LGBTQ affirming teachings including trans and gender non binary affirming teachings, taking the shame out of sex teaching healthy sexuality, teaching consent, teaching healthy committed relationships, sex positive sex affirming messages, no longer condemning masturbation no longer stigmatizing suicidal ideation and teaching and encouraging positive mental health practices like seeking medication, like seeking psychotherapy, counseling support etc and will make Mormonism and post Mormonism a healthy happy place. I hope you've enjoyed today's presentation. So grateful. Please share this everywhere you can. If you could just share this presentation on Facebook, on YouTube, share it Instagram on Twitter it'll make it'll make a huge difference.

[00:42:54] Thanks everybody. Thanks so much. You're awesome. I love you and please tune in again soon for more Mormon Stories podcast episodes. Thanks to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories. If you valued this program, if you liked it please consider donating@mormonstories.org become a monthly donor and and we'll do more episodes like this to help more people. Thanks everybody. Take care. See you soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.