Introducing John Turner and the Brigham Young Series

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Hello everyone and welcome to the Brigham Young podcast. I am Dr. John Dehlin, host of Mormon Stories podcast, and I'm here with Dr. John Turner, Professor Distinguished professor of History at the George Mason University. And we are so excited to be kicking off a brand new podcast series that is going to be its own podcast series, but also integrated into the Mormon Stories podcast feed. And it is all about the life of Brigham Young, the second president.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] And we'll see if he liked to call himself Prophet, the second president of the Mormon Church, or as it prefers to be known most of the time as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So, John Turner, before some of you will know that I did a 41 part series with John Turner about his amazing book, Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by Yale University Press.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Everybody that listened to that series, or at least almost everybody, loved it and they wanted more. And because before John Turner wrote Joseph Smith the Rise of Paul of an American Prophet about Joseph Smith, he wrote one of the probably the best Brigham Young biography that exists right now, which is Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet. And I actually had him on Mormon Stories a long, long time ago when this book came out. But people loved our deep dive so much about Joseph Smith that they said, come on, you gotta at least do Brigham Young. And so we're gonna do it. Donor stepped up and donated to this series.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] And so we are going to do at least a 10 part series on Brigham Young with Dr. John Turner. Now I'm gonna pause and say, John Turner, welcome to our second podcast.

John Turner [00:02:10] Wow, thanks, John. It is so good to be back. I am, I'm super excited. I think we set the record for the longest recorded conversation about Joseph Smith and it's a little intimidating to think that Brigham Young had a much longer life. So here we go.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] I guess it was probably 60 hours of conversations about Joseph Smith, right?

John Turner [00:02:35] Minimum, minimum.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] No, wait, three times 40. That's 120.

John Turner [00:02:40] I think we at least cleared 100 hours.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] That's awesome. And I stand by every word of it. You know, I've been thinking, want to use AI to go in and cut out everything that I said just so that people could just hear pure John Turner talking about Joseph Smith for I guess it would be 40 hours because I probably dominated those conversations. But anyway, I'm glad to be back for another round. I was going to say, haven't you had enough John Turner? But apparently not.

John Turner [00:03:07] You know, who knows? I just can't get enough. I've got a new Mormon themed shirt.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Oh, what does it say, lift it up higher.

John Turner [00:03:14] So this is Don Leo Jonathan, who is known as the Mormon Giant. In the middle of the 20th century, he was a 6 foot 6 wrestler. And there's a fantastic scholar of religion named David Walker who has produced a documentary about Don Leo Jonathan and his father. They've been showing it at universities around the country. They're going to be at George Mason University, the George Mason University, showing the Mormon giant on September 17th. So if you are in the greater Washington, D.C. area, you should come. It occurs to me that, you know, Joseph Smith was the original Mormon wrestler. And Brigham Young, he was pretty tough. He was pretty tough, too. He. He didn't mind a scrape or a contest.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Unlike Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young didn't mind a scrape. Is that what you're saying?

John Turner [00:04:24] That's what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Well, that's fun. I don't even know about that guy. How come you know more about Mormonism than me? That's not fair.

John Turner [00:04:32] Well, I definitely would not make that claim, but yeah, this stuff's fun. So I'm glad, I'm glad that we can, we can keep going. It's been a while since I wrote this book, so I've been, I don't know, I feel kind of narcissistic rereading my own stuff. But then I, you know, what I, what I've reread, I think to myself, my goodness, Brigham Young. It's just a wealth of crazy, amazing, sometimes profound, sometimes disturbing chapters in his life. So I'm excited to dig into it with you and with everyone who listens.

Why Brigham Young Deserves Serious Historical Attention

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Yeah, absolutely. What? You know, one of my favorite living Mormon historians is Brian Buchanan. And what Brian always says is, everyone who's obsessed about Joseph Smith is missing the boat because there's so much interesting stuff between 1844 and, let's just say, 1900 or 1920 that gets totally ignored because everyone just wants to talk about polyandry all the time and peep stones, you know, and that's true. And the other thing, John Turner. I'm gonna actually do something I almost never do. I'm gonna disagree with you, because when I started reading this Brigham Young biography, you said to me, hey, these are my words, not yours. It's not quite as good, as well written as my Joseph Smith biography, but I'm loving it.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] So I don't know what you're smoking, John Turner. This is a great book and it's a great read. And so everyone, let's begin. Everyone go buy this book. You could buy the hard copy cover. I get no kickback from people buying this book. I just think it's a book that you'll love, so buy it. And I'm also listening to the audiobook. And again, I'm going to disagree with you. I think the narrator's really good. I really enjoy the narrator, even though he mispronounces Maroney.

John Turner [00:06:30] Well, I wasn't, I wasn't saying that in general, the narrator wasn't great and he said Zion. Right. But, you know, I offered my pronunciation guide for the narration, which was ignored. But, yeah, no, however, however, you want to check it out, that'd be awesome. If you want to read it, listen to it. Ebook, hard, hard copy, whatever. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful that so many people are interested in Mormon history. And that includes faithful Latter Day Saints. It includes former members of the church. There's also just a lot of other folks like me out there who just find this stuff fascinating and compelling on a human and historical level. And so, hey, this is a place where no matter where you're coming from, I think you'll learn some new things and enjoy the ride.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] I love it. Okay, a couple things. Just housekeeping really quick. I did create a donor box link. You can go to donorbox.org BrighamYoung we are paying John for his participation. We also have operational costs. So if you want, if you value this series and you want to see it continue, and we did fund up to 10 episodes, but we might do more than 10, maybe. And so if you want to donate to see this series go to completion, go to donorbox.org BrighamYoung and the reason why is there's the second thing I want to announce. Some will love this, some may not. We're going to keep every episode under two hours.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Some of our episodes, many or most of our episodes of the Joseph Smith series went to three hours. We're going to try and keep it under every episode under two hours for one main reason. We found out recently that YouTube will only auto transcribe YouTube episodes into multiple languages if the episode's under two hours. And we want our international friends to be able to consume this podcast. And so. And also there's a lot of people out there that are like three hours. I'm never going to watch three hours of anything. And so that's. That's a promise. And so we're paying John per episode. So I wouldn't mind raising a little bit more money so that we can fulfill our commitment and pay John if we end up doing, you know, 15 episodes or 16 or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] We want to be able to pay John all the way through. So if you want to support this series, donorbox.org Brigham Young. And we're going to keep each episode under two hours. I hope that's okay with everybody. So, without any further ado, John Turner, before we actually jump into Brigham Young's backstory. And I think the focus for today is going to be the making of Brigham Young, which is kind of some backstory that helps us understand why he found Joseph Smith and honestly, the Book of Mormon before Joseph Smith, I would say, compelling. And then what drew him to the Restoration? What drew him to Joseph Smith?

Brigham Young's Origins and Early Backstory

John Dehlin [00:09:44] We're gonna talk about his backstory. So that's gonna be at least how we start today. We'll see if we have time to get to the succession crisis or not and to pick up where we left off in our Joseph Smith series. But before that, I think it's that we're at least we're taking five or 10 minutes to just talk about you're up and coming, you know, historian at George Mason, never Mormon. Lots of things you could have written about or pursued. Talk about your personal research interests and whatever other factors culminated that made you interested enough in Brigham Young to end up, I think, accepting the invitation to write this book. So why don't we start there?

John Turner [00:10:27] So that's a great question. So I wrote a dissertation in first book about evangelical Protestantism in the United States after the Second World War, because that was essentially my own background. And I thought after I was done with that, hey, enough navel gazing. Let's learn about something new and different.

John Turner [00:10:54] And I thought about this was 2007 or so. I thought about writing a book on Mormons and conservative politics in the United States, say after the Second World War. Mitt Romney was getting ready to run for president the first time. That probably would have been not a bad idea.

John Turner [00:11:15] But I thought I'd better know something about this tradition if I'm going to try to write about it. And so I started reading the 19th century history of the Church. And Brigham Young immediately struck me as a towering figure, not just for Mormon history, but for American history writ large.

John Turner [00:11:40] Because not only was he the second president of the LDS Church, he's also the first governor of the Utah Territory, heavily involved in Native Native affairs and conflict, and was a real lightning rod of controversy across the country. I mean, Mormonism was a significant political issue in the United States as a whole from the mid eight, from the mid 1850s, early 1850s through the early 1900s. So for about half a century, and Brigham Young is just in the middle of that.

John Turner [00:12:25] This was about the time when there was a lot of renewed attention to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It's about the time Will Bagley published his book, forget the exact title, but basically, Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

John Turner [00:12:41] I read Leonard Arrington's biography. One of the things I could perceive from American Moses is that there were a ton, just a ton of very illuminating sources about, especially the last several decades of Brigham Young's life that Arrington and his team had not fully utilized.

John Turner [00:13:12] And I was totally naive. So I knew nothing about doing Mormon history, researching Mormon history. I wrote a letter to the church history department telling them, you know, I want to do. I want to research biography of Brigham Young.

John Turner [00:13:30] And I just showed up. I think a couple of folks kind of got. Tried to get me oriented, and I'm sure they thought I was totally nuts.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] And I. I ended up, oh, John Turner, so cute.

John Turner [00:13:46] I'm sure they thought, this guy absolutely does not know what he's doing. And they were completely right and ended up spending a few summers in. In Utah, mostly at the church archives and also at all sorts of other places. I had a total blast. It was true. There was just a mountain of material to read to try to decipher. It's probably the time in my life where I felt the most like a real historian, you know, just doing a lot of archival spade work.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] And, you know, I. When I learned about Leonard ARRINGTON in the 2000s, you know, after I was 35 years into Mormonism, was when I first really, really learned about his story and what he did. I read Adventures of a Church Historian, which is one of the most important books I've ever read for Mormonism. Learning about the Leonard Arrington administration and the Camelot years of church history from.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] From 19, what, 72 to 1982 or whatever it was, you know, and I read that he was, like, one of the first credible historians that the Church ever hired who had academic chops for history, and that he had written a biography of Brigham Young. I just assumed that it was, like, the best and most amazing biography of Brigham Young ever, and that there would never be a need for anyone to ever write another one, because that's how highly I ended up feeling about Leonard Arrington. But, you know, just like, even though I felt that way about Fawn Brody, you know, one thing you reminded me about Brody was that she just didn't have access to a lot of.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] Of documents that you and others have. And Bushman and others have. I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that maybe he wasn't able to be fully candid. And so can you talk a little bit about assessing Arrington's biography of Brigham Young and like, what you felt like it might be missing, either for his reticence or his lack of access to information?

John Turner [00:16:08] That's a great question. And actually, I think the contrast that you draw there is spot on in the sense that unlike Fawn Brody, Leonard Arrington did have really extensive access. I mean, he had. He had access to the entirety of the Brigham Young papers.

John Turner [00:16:28] He had an assistant, a staff member. I'm blanking on the name. It was a woman, Edith Romney, who transcribed really thousands of pages of primary sources for him. I think I'd say two things. Number one, Leonard Arrington, I forget, you know, he was church historian at the time. He had a lot of responsibilities, and so he didn't, on his own, go through every primary source.

John Turner [00:17:12] He didn't have quite, quite have time, I would say, for that spade work. When I was working on my biography, I was still young enough to, you know, to stay up till 1 or 2am you know, poring over, pouring over these materials. I think I just went through a lot, lot more on my own than he did. But, yes, I do think he also operated with constraints.

John Turner [00:17:40] So I. This will sound a little bit familiar from our discussion of Joseph Smith. You know, I spend a lot more time on Brigham Young's marriages, all of the, you know, quirky, zany and disturbing elements of them. I go more into some of the episodes in which, you know, Brigham Young, you know, clamps down on dissent within the church.

John Turner [00:18:19] I narrate, you know, some disturbing instances of violence in. In early Utah. So it's not so much that Leonard Arrington didn't delve into some of these topics. I just think I give fuller vent to them. I always say, though, you know, people sometimes will talk about warts in all biographies.

John Turner [00:18:46] I think it's important not just to do the warts, you know, to also do the all. You know, I. I also think in some ways I emphasize Brigham's, especially the youthful Brigham's spiritual fire a bit more than Arrington does in his biography.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] You know, I'm embarrassed to admit what I'm about to say, but I had the timeline so wrong. In my mind, he had published the Brigham Young biography, and that's what made the church hire him as church historian. But actually, he publishes the Brigham Young biography three years after The, The. The Camelot years are over, which is a totally different thing. And by the way, wasn't it an article about Brigham Young or some of the research that got done on Brigham Young or other early prophets that got him and the Church history department in trouble? So he would have been publishing this book after his whole Camelot years of church history were shut down, and he had been left with sort of like his backside red with feeling, like he had been punished for being too candid with the history of the department that he oversaw.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] That's a very different context for the book that he published versus had he had written it before. He had known that Ezra Taft Benson was gonna do what he did. You know what I mean?

John Turner [00:20:20] Yes. Well, so first of all, you're right to, you know, you're right about the timeline. So he really made his mark as an economic historian. His work on the various aspects of the economic history of the Utah Territory in the late 19th century, it's still among the best that's out there.

John Turner [00:20:45] He's just fantastic on such subjects. And then, you know, he and his team, they envisioned, you know, a series of books about the history of the Church. What became his Brigham Young biography was going to be one of those, and then that the idea of that series was scrapped and the result was a number of standalone titles, including, I think, if I'm not mistaken, Richard Bushman's first book on Joseph Smith, and then also this biography of Brigham Young.

John Turner [00:21:28] And I often think when thinking about historians writing in such circumstances, it's easy, perhaps with the benefit of hindsight or being on the outside, to say, well, he didn't say everything that he could have said, or he left some stones unturned. And that's true.

John Turner [00:21:55] But people do write with constraints and the professionalization of Mormon history that Arrington and his associates brought about that has had enormous long term benefits for the study of the Mormon past. And despite all of the tumult and disruption that came with the end of Camelot, it did set the stage for an era in which the Church has become much more open about its 19th century past. So I think. I think Leonard Arrington deserves a tremendous amount of credit for that.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Amen. Amen. All right, well, that's some fun context to then jump into the life of Brigham Young. And I was telling you before, my favorite movies and TV shows and books do character development where I really understand a villain. I want to know the villain's backstory and what made him a villain and a hero. I want to know the hero's backstory to make me care about the hero. And I want to know about Brigham Young's. Even though it could make sense to just pick up where we left off with Joseph Smith dying. Was it the summer or fall of 1844 in Nauvoo, which was the date?

John Turner [00:23:25] June of 1844.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] That's a great place to pick up, but I want to go back and hear some backstory. And so let's spend a good hour today talking about Brigham Young, where he came from, what his childhood and adolescence were like, what his parents were like, what his family was like, what his spiritual and religious and inner life and even his psychological life were like, to then help us understand why he would find Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Restoration compelling. So take it away, John Turner.

John Turner [00:24:01] Sure. Well, so in a. In a way, there are some parallels with Joseph Smith's early years. Brigham's born in 1801, so he's just a little bit older, about four years older than Joseph Smith. Like Joseph Smith, he was born in Vermont.

John Turner [00:24:22] And like Joseph Smith, he came into the world into a family that was poor, was mobile, if you will, moved around a lot. Again, like Joseph Smith, his. His family's circumstances didn't really improve. They were. It was very hard scrabble, difficult.

John Turner [00:24:52] There's a story that Brigham later told that I think maybe he was, I don't know, 9 or 11 years old. They were living in western New York at the time at a place called Painted Post. It's not too far away from where I grew up, so I kind of. I kind of like this. It's a beautiful part of western New York. But he tells a story about his father going away, taking a load of maple sugar to sell, and he left Brigham and one of his brothers to basically fend for themselves for a few days.

John Turner [00:25:35] And there really wasn't any food to eat. So Brigham and his brother Lorenzo got by by shooting. By eating a robin that Brigham shot. That's pretty meager if you're. If you're getting by on a robin for a few days.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] That's lower than a toad.

John Turner [00:26:00] Well, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Legs. I mean, like. Yeah. Who.

John Turner [00:26:04] I never.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] When people are really, really starving, you don't hear about them eating a robin. You hear about them eating like a frog.

John Turner [00:26:11] Yeah. Or, you know, exactly. I mean, you know, probably harder to get a robin, I guess. So he must have been a good shot. I mean, you know, Joseph Smith's family, they. They were pretty tight and warm with each other. Brigham Young didn't Have that. He later said of his father that, you know, he was super strict. It was a word and a blow with him, but the blow came first. So, you know, you get out of line or cause any trouble, you were going to get punished.

John Turner [00:26:48] And when Brigham was 16, his mother had died, his father remarried, and at that point his father basically turned him out of the house and told him, you can now have your time, go. And so he was out on his own making, making his own living from an early age.

John Turner [00:27:18] He was. He moved to Auburn, New York, away from his family, got all sorts of, you know, got all sorts of jobs. He apprenticed himself to a furniture maker, apparently became a pretty skilled craftsman. You could also think of him as, you know, someone who could kind of do anything. He described himself as a carpenter, a joiner, a painter, a glazer.

John Turner [00:27:49] He worked as a journeyman, journeyman printer for a while. So I think of Brigham as someone who was hard scrabble, tough, self reliant due to circumstances, if not choice.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] Love it. I picked up all that from what you wrote. Let me just tell you some of my initial notes. I think this is from your introduction. I think I was noting parallels to Joseph Smith because first of all, there's a family member upline. I wrote John's dad. So John Young was who?

John Turner [00:28:33] Brigham's father.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] So Brigham's. Is it right that Brigham's grandfather had a problem with alcohol and gambling, is that right, and died early?

John Turner [00:28:41] I think that is correct, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] So I mean, he would have probably had concerns about the negative impacts of alcohol and reckless living. If I interpreted that right, that reminded me of Joseph Smith's dad having problems with alcohol. Vermont is in his upbringing. So it was with true with Joseph, failed farming was in his upbringing, which again is similar to Joseph. You know, a large family, no formal education, poor. And then also his family believed in devils and angels and spirits and even divining rods in the magic worldview. So that would, if I got that right, that would have also made him potentially resonant with Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith's background. Now, maybe this was everybody who was poor in the region during this time frame, but still I can't help but notice even divining rods and magic worldview they shared. And then also Methodists. Right? Was it Joseph Smith into Methodism?

John Turner [00:29:49] Yeah. So Joseph said that he caught a spark of Methodism. It's sort of like he liked the Methodists more than the other revivalists. But Joseph always held back from actually joining anything. Now, Brigham Young, he also, I mean, I think in a sense he was sort of a non institutional Christian seeker akin to Joseph Smith.

John Turner [00:30:22] But he did join the Methodists in, you know, as a, as a young man. And I think it's actually also significant the type of Methodist church he joined. He joined an offshoot that was known as the Reformed Methodist Church, which, you know, this is not a well known denomination. It was basically formed by, you know, very unassuming, like farmers and mechanics.

John Turner [00:31:01] These were. This was not an elite religious movement. It was a group that was into the strict observance of the Sabbath, into sort of ecstatic spiritual worship. And I think this was particularly significant. They were looking for the restoration of spiritual gifts from the New Testament, specifically healing. Some of them were also into the idea of the kind of communitarian sharing of property. So, you know, some of Brigham's siblings also joined the Reformed Methodists and

John Dehlin [00:31:52] a

John Turner [00:31:52] lot of the family, at least sort of occasionally preached, preached Methodism. Brigham, you know, in his later reflections, he sounds a little bit like Joseph Smith in terms of being disaffected from revivalism. You know, he talks about how there were all of these groups sort of pointing the way to Christ and that his conversion didn't really stick. He was still mournful about his own sinfulness. But I would say he waded into the waters of evangelical Protestantism a lot more than Joseph did. He was more immersed in that religious world.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] Really quickly. What was the fancy word you used for basically? Pentecostal or charismatic dynamics in a religious institution? You just said it of five minutes ago.

John Turner [00:32:59] Maybe the restoration of spiritual gifts or ecstatic worship.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] Worship, yeah. So, yeah, I can't. As I was reading this introduction in the first few chapters, I couldn't help but think of our mutual dear friend Christopher Thomas, who wrote Pentecostal, Reads the Book of Mormon. Because if you look at the, if you look at that article of faith in Joseph Smith's Articles of Faith where he writes, when we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing and the interpretation of tongues, et cetera, like today's Mormon Church seems to want to discount almost all of that, if not all of it, or reinterpret it in ways that don't mean what it originally meant. And what I was noticing reading about Brigham Young is that those very things were heavily what attracted Brigham Young to eventually Joseph Smith and the Restoration. He was into that charismatic stuff, oh, a hundred percent.

John Turner [00:34:00] And since you're bringing it up, I can't help but get just a little bit of head, a little bit ahead. He decides to be baptized into the Church of Christ as it was originally known. Baptized as a Mormon because he sees Mormon elders speak in tongues. For him, that demonstrated that the power of God was in this movement. And Joseph Smith, he kind of went a little back and forth on the issue of speaking in tongues. It wasn't something he was, you know, is heavily into personally. Brigham Young was into speaking in tongues. He spoke in. Sang in tongues during the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. He again spoke in tongues in the Nauvoo temple in the mid-1840s. So for him, that was a. That was a huge part of the appeal.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] Another thing that I noted was, you know, obviously Brigham Young now is. Is noted as not a great guy and is kind of sometimes at least sharing a lot of violent rhetoric like blood atonement and, you know, the. The Mormon Reformation stuff that some say the rhetoric that leads to the. Creating the possibility the Mountain Meadows Massacre and just being a strict, harsh, and sometimes at least psychologically violent kind of guy. Well, I like to, as someone with a psychology background, I like to understand what in someone's upbringing, other than just the brain that they were born with, might have contributed to a penchant towards at least violent rhetoric or sternness. And I think he was. You write that he was physically abused by his dad. Physically, physically and verbally abused by his dad. Is that fair to say?

Brigham Young's Difficult Childhood and Family Life

John Turner [00:35:56] That is fair to say, yeah. No, he says, you know, if. If basically you got out of line, his father would correct him with a word and a blow. But the blow came first. So absolutely it was tough. And, you know, that was. That was his home life and he was. I would not say that the Young Young adult, Brigham Young, was a violent individuals individual generally, but he did get into fights with people. And, you know, that. That persisted at least to some extent in the 1830s. You know, he gets into some fights with people in. In Kirtland. So, yeah, I think. I think it was a tough family circumstance and.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] And no one wants to excuse violence, but like, I think anyone, if. If we want to try and develop empathy and understanding for the figures that we are looking at and try to understand what could have created this guy and in his bad moments, what could have helped shape the bad moments. We all would agree now that one of the worst things you could do is beat a child, right? We would all be completely revolted because that's a horrific thing to do because it hurts the child. And we have to just realize he was beat by his dad. He was abused physically and probably psychologically by his dad.

John Turner [00:37:29] Yeah. So I'm not in any way pushing back against that because I completely agree with what you're saying. I think in terms of, and we'll, we'll get to this later on, I think the biggest trauma for Brigham Young that produced a shift in his personality and in some of his ideas, that was the murder of Joseph Smith and the murder of Hyrum Smith and the collapse of things in Kirtland and the threat of violence for him. He wasn't in Nauvoo at the time of the murders, but I think that was the big trauma for him.

John Turner [00:38:17] He writes about suffering from headaches and just the crush and the, the of leadership in the wake of it. I think that very much hardened his personality. Now, I do think he could be, you know, he could be boisterous, he could get into a fight as a young man.

John Turner [00:38:39] But one of his old Methodist friends, he writes a letter many decades later in which, you know, he writes about praying and singing with Brigham Young and describes Brigham as a pretty pious, humble man. And, you know, Brigham responds in times he's in kind. He says, I vividly remember the scenes, feelings and experience when we were fellow seekers after the truths revealed from heaven.

John Turner [00:39:22] So I think some of, you know, some of the toleration, tolerance for violence, some of the hard edged rhetoric, some of the more disturbing theological ideas, I do think they come after 1844.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Oh, that's good. That's good to know. I don't want to be reductionistic in looking at his upbringing to say that those are the only things that formed him, but maybe they played a role.

John Turner [00:39:51] No, I think that's, I think that's totally fair. And I do think, you know, I think sometimes it's easy from the early 21st century to say things like, well, everyone kind of beat their children back then. You know, that's just commonplace. But, and I'm not, I've. I don't know whether or not the, you know, corporal punishment ever took place in the Smith family. It's a very different atmosphere.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Well, it did between Joseph and Emma. Sorry. Keep going.

John Turner [00:40:25] Well, okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] I, I Possibly, possibly.

John Turner [00:40:30] All right. What I was going to say is, you know, the, the Smiths, it was a very warm household.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Yeah.

John Turner [00:40:36] Joseph Smith senior had his shortcomings as sort of a family leader, but Joseph had a really, Joseph Smith had a tender love for his dad. And just, you know, Brigham's family is just, is less tight. It was more fractured. You know, it's just tougher circumstances to grow up in. Despite the shared poverty.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Yeah. Okay. One thing that was interesting to me, I'll never forget Helen Whitney's series on the Mormons for pbs. And one of the points she makes is how much Brigham Young loved dancing and how his love of dancing and just, I don't know, evenings of dancing and music and enjoyment helped shape Mormonism to the point where now, you know, Whitney Levitt is on Dancing with the Stars. You know what I mean? And Mormon dancers are everywhere on television. But I was surprised to read that in his youth, there were times where he was against dancing. And, you know, and also, it seems like there were times of vegetarianism, but also prohibition of alcohol, and that he didn't drink even though he wouldn't sign a temperance pledge, because I think he didn't want to be told what to do.

Young Brigham's Character, Interests, and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [00:42:00] But talk about, was there a change that happened where some of the ways he was stern and strict in his behaviors and worldview must have changed over time because he might have been different in his adolescent or early adult years than how he became later.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] And dancing is just one. Or alcohol can be just two examples of me trying to understand how he might have been different earlier than how he becomes later. Does that make sense?

John Turner [00:42:30] No, that makes sense. So it's a great question. I don't know if I can entirely explain the transition, but it's a great question because, yeah, he grows up in this strict Methodist environment, And by the mid-1820s, 20s, the temperance movement and completely abstaining from alcohol is gaining in popularity among American Protestants. And so it's strict Sabbath observance, no alcohol, leriness of anything like card playing, dancing, even music to some extent. And Brickham, he. You can trace this. He doesn't totally shed all of his inhibitions about dancing and music, but in the mid-1840s, he's on board with music and dancing in the. In the Nauvoo Temple.

John Turner [00:43:34] And, you know, famously, as he's leading the Mormon pioneers west, there's dancing at night. And one of my favorite little details is, I think this is at winter quarters. There's a comment that Brigham Young participates in what they called the Mormon Dance, which was specifically a dance in which one man would have two female partners.

John Turner [00:44:06] And I thought that was a good sense of humor. Right. So, yeah, I think. And he has this comment that, you know, dancing, that is not the domain of hell and the devil, you know, that should be the domain of heaven.

John Turner [00:44:25] And I think, if anything, I would attribute some of this to shift in thinking to Joseph Smith, who I think does you know, he has certain comfort with sociability and with music and dancing that Brigham Young, you know, Brigham Young embraces Brigham Young later, you know, in the, In Nauvoo. He performs in the Nauvoo Theater.

John Turner [00:44:56] So. So yeah, he gets on board with this. He also abandons that strict rejection of alcohol. Brigham Young and the other apostles drink strawberry wine the night that he is affirmed as president of the Church, when he reconstitutes the First Presidency. So, yeah, he leaves some of that, you know, strict Methodism behind.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Interesting. So, yeah. And then I wrote, you know, there's this. I think it's the. What did you call it?

John Turner [00:45:38] Orthodox Methodism or Reformed Methodism?

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Yeah, like it is. I remember reading these early chapters. He. He ends up converting and becoming heavily involved in reform Methodism. But at some point, it leaves him unfulfilled and wanting. In other words, he thinks it's like the deal.

John Turner [00:45:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] And then at some point, I wrote, he ends up getting depressed.

John Turner [00:46:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] And also, it seems like he really, like he was hard on other people, but it seems like he was hard on himself. Because what I sense from reading your book is that he struggled with this sense of his own worthiness.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] And what I wrote as a, as a psychology background, scrupulosity, it seems like he almost was a moral perfectionist with himself as well as with others. And that, that I know for a fact because I researched it. Scrupulosity can lead to depression because you're always trying to be worthy and to be good enough and you're super sensitive at whether you're good enough and worthy enough and doing it right. And that just wears you out and can lead to depression.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] And I thought that was interesting because I think I might look into whether I would have posthumously diagnosed Brigham Young as having religious based OCD or scrupulosity, which again, would not only explain. Well, which. Which could explain why he was so hard on everybody else later in his life, because that would mean he was really hard on himself. Do you think that fits a profile? And maybe people are going, john, stop being fond Brody, and trying to psychoanalyze these historical figures, but I can't help it.

John Turner [00:47:22] Yeah. So, you know, you do the psychology and I'll do a little bit of theological history. Yeah. So the Methodists, they're quite prone to that sort of thinking because John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, he articulated a belief in spiritual perfection, that Christians could attain a state of sinless perfection and holiness.

John Turner [00:47:56] And eventually the Methodists drifted away from that teaching. But in the early 19th century. That's still very common. And so that certainly leads to an almost inevitable sense of, oh, I've had this conversion experience. I've made this profession of religion, but I'm still sinful. And. Yeah, so I. I like your framework of a. Of scrupulosity. Brigham writes. You know, he later writes and talks about this. The evil one would whisper to me that I had done this, that or some other wrong, and inquire whether that looked like a Christian act.

John Turner [00:48:48] So, boy, I doubt. I doubt this religious identity that I have embraced because I'm not living up to it. And he very much writes about depression. He says, I was troubled with feeling, cast down, gloomy and desponding with everything wearing to me at times a dreary aspect.

John Turner [00:49:17] And, you know, I think that's. That really has a ring of authenticity to it. I think, you know, it's not just sort of vague. You know, I didn't feel great about myself because I was still a sinner. And I think that's just rich, earthy language about feeling despondent. And so this isn't super uncommon.

John Turner [00:49:47] I think, in, you know, revivalist Protestantism, you have an emotional conversion, and then you have to grapple with the fact that not everything in your spiritual life, you know, stays on that plane.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] Yeah, love it. Okay. You're feeding my need to get a psychological profile of Brigham Young. And I think we've got a pretty good sense for who he is. Very capable, very driven, conflicted, but. But a seeker and into spirituality and even the supernatural, but hard, scrabbled, you know, determined, you know, person.

John Turner [00:50:32] Right, Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] So do you want to turn to his marriage and then his early adult life as not just a bachelor, but as a married person, or is there anything else you want to cover?

John Turner [00:50:45] No, I think that's a good next transition. So in 1824, he married a woman named Miriam Works, who was five years younger than him. So she would have been around 18 or 19 at the time. They got married, and they had a child soon thereafter.

John Turner [00:51:12] And at that point, Brigham is still moving around a lot. They move away from Auburn, New York, which is sort of in central New York. They move west to Oswego, which is on the shores of Lake Ontario, a place that gets, like 10ft of snow every winter.

John Turner [00:51:34] And then they moved near Rochester in, I think, around 1827, 1828, and the family was sort of converging there. John Young senior had bought land there. Brigham's father, several of his brothers moved there. Brigham ends up building a house and A mill.

John Turner [00:52:03] And he builds furniture, mantelpieces, sometimes he builds houses, makes baskets. He'll do all sorts. Sorts of work. I would say that, you know, his industry doesn't quite get him over the economic hump. He. He and one of his brothers try to acquire some land, but can't really pay it off.

John Turner [00:52:39] He sort of ends up stuck in this position of he can earn enough through his craftsmanship and odd jobs to get by, but not. Not enough to advance himself out of poverty.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] Okay. Yep. But he learns a lot of, like, he's. Like you say, he learns a lot of trades and skills in the process. And then how does he fall in love?

John Turner [00:53:09] Well, I think he is. He is loving toward his wife, Miriam. Now, I will say, you know, her. Her life is not very well documented, so we don't know a whole lot about her, unfortunately. One of the things that we do know is that shortly after the birth of their second child in 1830, she became ill, and Brigham basically had to take care of her and the kids. And he later talks about this.

John Turner [00:53:53] You know, he would get up, he would prepare breakfast for the family. He would get the two girls dressed. They had two daughters. He would leave Miriam in a rocking chair by the fireplace. He'd go to work, he'd come home, cook dinner, put her to bed, and then finish up the other domestic household chores. So he must have been working himself to the bone in 1830.

John Turner [00:54:29] And unfortunately, she never got better. She died in 1832. And right during sort of these years of hardship and tumult and ultimately grief is when Brigham Young and his brothers get introduced to the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] And again, I'm reminded of your comment, everyone beat their kids. Everyone beat their kids back then. That's not necessarily true. They. There's a part of me would think like everybody's spouse died back then, but that's not true. And also, isn't it worth noting, I got the sense he was a doting. I mean, a loving husband that wasn't just neglecting, you know, you. You get this picture once Joseph Smith's sending these missionaries overseas, that these men are just calloused and they don't care about women at all. And they don't. Being a. A husband just to them is neglecting their wives, wife or wives. But that's not the vibe I'm getting with how he treated Miriam. He's nursing her to try and help save her life, which is what we would expect any good husband or human to do. And he grieves. When she dies, he Loved her, right?

John Turner [00:55:53] Yeah. It's sort of like the, the idea that people in earlier centuries, they didn't really mourn that much when they had children died because, well, a quarter of children died.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Right.

John Turner [00:56:07] But you read their journals. It touches them really deeply. And as I said, you know, we don't, we don't have a lot of documentation about these years. We mostly have later recollections. But Brigham's recollection is he's been building, he's been building this family with Miriam just after they have a second daughter. And it had been, I think, five years since their first daughter. So that's probably, you know, that's kind of a long stretch. And it's probably very gratifying for them to have a second child. You know, she gets, she gets ill. He has to do everything. But I read his recollection, as you put it, not resenting having to do everything, but doing everything he could to take care of her and their daughters.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] One of the things I love about the series is that I've got Julia doing show notes and she asks me questions or makes observations and I, I've been missing some of her comments. So I'm just going to go back a tiny bit and share a couple questions or comments Julia made because I love Julia's explorations in history. She wanted to know John Turner. She says Brigham had a bloodstone that he often wore. And I think she's asking, was that worn in the treasure digging, divining rods, demons, sort of black magic, folk magic worldview? That's the question Julia had for you.

John Turner [00:57:45] Yeah, a bloodstone amulet. I recall that, but I have to refresh my memory for, for next time.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Well, this is fun because we're inviting our audience to get, share what they know about his bloodstone amulet. And then we can also have that be a part of our discussion because there's so many Mormon history nerds out there. Don't we love them?

John Turner [00:58:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Yeah, absolutely. Comment in the YouTube comments if you know the answer to Julia's question or if you have other additional insight and we'll read those comments and respond to them. The next thing is Julia is sharing a quote by Joseph Smith, A parent may whip a child, and justly too, because he stole an apple. That's Joseph Smith in the Happiness Letter. So it sounds like Joseph Smith wasn't, at least theoretically, opposed to beating a child.

John Turner [00:58:38] So I mean, this is the era of spare the rod and spoil the child. But I don't recall Joseph Smith's children. I could be wrong. I Don't recall them commenting on harsh treatment from their father.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Right. But, I mean, I guess she's trying to say that corporal punishment may have been pretty common. I think that might be what she's trying to say. And I'm sure you wouldn't object to that. I mean, the Bible.

John Turner [00:59:12] I wouldn't. I wouldn't object to that. I do think for Brigham, the fact that he comments on how harsh his father was, that's noteworthy because that signals to me that he thought his. His father's harshness was a bit beyond the ordinary.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then the. The next thing Julia was asking, I think this is appropriate in the context of Miriam dying. Julie's understanding is the Brigham Young hated doctors. Is that true?

John Turner [00:59:49] Well, it's probably true because most people didn't like doctors very much in the early 1800s, because, you know, this is still before the professionalization of medicine, and it's still at a time in which doctors frequently cannot solve problems. You know, Joseph Smith. This isn't directly answering the question. Joseph Smith had some pretty harsh comments on. On doctors because, you know, related to the death of some of his family members. Brigham, you know, when he writes about Miriam dying, which happens shortly after his baptism, as a Mormon, he. Well, first of all, as it turned out, he wasn't there at the time of her death. And I don't know to what extent he had sought help from doctors to try to cure her. He doesn't. He doesn't reflect on that. But, you know, I think in general, and I would say the same thing about Joseph Smith, their views on physicians were not uncommon.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] Yeah. I mean, they were literally practicing medicine back then. They still are today, but back then they were really practicing medicine.

John Turner [01:01:27] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Okay, remind me, you probably already said this. Did he have kids with Miriam?

John Turner [01:01:34] Had two daughters.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] So he's already got two daughters, and now he's a widower. The mom of his two daughters has died, and he's got to make his way in the world, both grieving the death of his wife, the. Whom he loved, and finding a way to take care of two kids.

John Turner [01:01:49] Yeah. So as I said, she. She dies, I think, about six months after his baptism into the LDS Church. Correct.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Okay.

John Turner [01:02:06] And I'm trying to recall whether or not she was baptized also. I think so, but I'm not certain. I have to double.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] Miriam was baptized before she died, Correct? Okay. Yeah.

John Turner [01:02:20] She died in September of 1832. But I think the writing was on the wall for a while. I'm sure at a certain point, he grasped that she probably wouldn't recover. Interestingly, I think the Young family has encounters with Mormonism, specifically with the Book of Mormon, very soon after the organization of the Church of Christ in the Book of Mormon's publication.

John Turner [01:02:52] So Brigham's brother, Phineas, In April of 1830, he. And he. He has an encounter with Samuel Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, and that introduces him to the Book of Mormon. He, Phineas Young, agrees to read it with a prayerful heart, expecting to expose the book's errors.

John Turner [01:03:29] But according to his recollection, he read every word in the book that week and read it again the following week, had a conviction that the book was true. Brigham's father read it also and was convinced one of his sisters also read it and considered it a revelation.

John Turner [01:03:59] And Brigham also. I don't know if he read it through or not, but I think he at least read some of it and had a positive response. What's interesting about the Young family is, you know, you hear a lot of stories of Mormon conversion in which people, you know, they get a hold of the Book of Mormon, like Parley Pratt, they read it through maybe all that night, and they. They believe and they're baptized. The Youngs take their time. So they encounter this. They like it, but they're. They're going to think about it.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] Before we talk a little bit more about his conversion. I. I'm seeing in my notes that it's not just Brigham, it's Brigham and Heber. And, you know, growing up, I always thought of Joseph and Hyrum as being like the duo that really was consequential in early Mormonism. But let's face it, the Brigham Heber duo was pretty consequential in early Mormonism. So let's. Should we take a second to talk about Heber and how Brigham and Heber get together? Because they get together before they join the church.

Brigham and Heber's Early Religious Seeking

John Turner [01:05:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] And let's talk about that friendship and a little bit about Heber's background, because I'm sure Heber is going to play into the next to the book. Right?

John Turner [01:05:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] He's a main character, let's just say.

John Turner [01:05:21] Yes. And back in 1828, he probably even had hair. So, yeah. So he. When Brigham moved to Mendon, New York, which again is near Rochester around 1828, that's when he meets Heber Kimball, who was a potter and blacksmith. And I think they become. It's pretty clear they become friendly at the time because Brigham and Miriam named their second daughter Violet after Heber Kimball's wife.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] And for some Reason I pronounce that volatile, but it's Violet.

John Turner [01:06:10] Okay. So I'm gonna invite listeners to set. You know, I don't know. Settle that one in the. In the comments.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Yeah.

John Turner [01:06:21] You know, I have tried several pronouns, pronunciations, but I'm going with Violet.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] Yeah.

John Turner [01:06:28] I could be wrong. I'm probably wrong. I. I learned through the Joseph Smith podcast how often I'm wrong in pronunciations. You get used to just reading and writing things. Then you have to. Then you have to vocalize them when I'm talking to you.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] Julia likes Violet, for whatever that's worth.

John Turner [01:06:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:50] Okay. So Brigham meets Heber before they join the church. He names his daughter, likely after Heber's wife. I. There's my mind. Like, I wondered how close they were as couples, if there was anything interesting about how close they were as couples. But I. You know, we probably don't have any information on that, I think, but we do.

John Turner [01:07:16] We do know that. I don't know if it's completely in parallel, but they're close enough that you could also say they investigate Mormonism together. So by the fall of 1831, when a group of Mormon missionaries from Pennsylvania stop in Mendon, I'm pretty sure both Heber and Brigham are part of the encounter. So they're there together thinking about this, contemplating whether they should abandon Methodism and join this new church.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Yeah. And I don't know if you could do this off the top of your head. I'm sure I have infinite beliefs in your abilities. But, like, given where they were theologically with the Bible and with, you know, Reformed Methodism and their former Protestant Christianity, when they would have received the Book of Mormon in 1830 to read it.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] And again, it took him a couple years to join. How would the. The story, you know, you write about, you know, explaining the origin of Native Americans, about resolving disputes among sects, declaring God, that he's still in touch with his people. Dark skin is a curse from God. Miracles are still here.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] There's good on the earth, that there are revelations, and all the charismatic stuff that Chris Thomas talks about in his book. The Book of Mormon is a Pentecostal book. It just is. It's more Pentecostal than modern Pentecostals in many ways. How would all of that landed with Brigham Young and Heber's mindset as devoted Christians who were seekers at the time?

John Turner [01:09:14] So, great question. So let me answer it in a slightly roundabout way. The first thing I'd say is there is a lot about early Mormonism that was congruent with the spirituality of Brigham Young and his family at the time. And you just touched on some of those things. So the restoration of spiritual gifts, miracles, that people are being healed, that people are speaking in tongues, that's super congruent.

John Turner [01:09:48] There's some other things that we haven't quite touched on. The Book of Mormon, also, it has a certain appeal to hardscrabble, unpretentious people like the Youngs. The Book of Mormon condemns fancy apparel, jewelry, putting on airs, high hireling priests, things like that. I think that totally resonated with the Young family.

John Turner [01:10:19] Baptism by immersion, according to Brigham's own. Brigham's recollection when he joined the Methodists, he insisted on being baptized by immersion, which wasn't typical, but they did it. So there's a lot that tracked with where his family was. I think some. I think what was often a challenge because we're usually talking about people who convert when we do this sort of thing. Right there, there's a lot of bars to get over to take this new movement seriously. I think taking the Book of Mormon seriously, that was a big hurdle for a lot of people. The Youngs, they certainly didn't think that God would be revealing additional books of scripture to people.

John Turner [01:11:15] So. But when they read it, I do think, yeah, there's a lot of congruence. The things I've just mentioned, the focus on Jesus Christ, I think, was certainly also very appealing, but I think it was seeing the spiritual fire and miracles and signs associated with this movement, that's what it took to convince Brigham Young. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:50] And in that spirit, I have written that later. I think both Brigham and Heberg claim that on the day that Joseph Smith allegedly obtained the plates, they claim to independently have had visions and they see soldiers.

John Turner [01:12:11] That's what they later say. It's pretty crazy, isn't it?

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Report. There's no contemporary evidence of those visions.

John Turner [01:12:19] There's no report of that, and I don't know what to make of it.

John Dehlin [01:12:24] Would it have been 1827 that Joseph obtained the plates?

John Turner [01:12:28] Yep. Fall of 1827. So Brigham says the night the plates were found, there was a great light in the east, and it went to the west, and it was very bright, although there was no moon at the time. I gazed at it in company with my wife. The light was perfectly clear and remained several hours. It formed into men as if there were great armies in the west, and they would march and then go out of sight.

John Turner [01:12:58] And Heber Kimball, they weren't living in the same place yet, he reports, at least very Similar visionary experience. He says he could. He could hear the guns crack and the swords clash, basically like scenes from the War of 1812.

John Turner [01:13:22] I don't quite know. I don't know what to make of that. John Dehlin, you know, Brigham. Brigham later also said that God had revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to him personally before Joseph did. And so part of me wants to be a little bit cynical and say, well, you know, these. These people are either reconstructing visions and visionary experiences to align with events they later hear about.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] What a cynic. John Turner. You're a cynic. You're a skeptic. I'm teasing. I'm teasing. I'm teasing.

John Turner [01:14:07] Or maybe doing so in a way that also enhances their own spiritual authority, but who knows?

John Dehlin [01:14:17] Yeah, okay. And going back a teeny bit to the list that I made of what was in the Book of Mormon, whatever the Book of Mormon means to people today and whatever it even changed in its meaning, even through Joseph's life, if we really want to look at what the Book of Mormon was in 1830, I wrote, It's a theological bridge to an era of restoration. It basically says, hey, Christianity, this is kind of where we are. And this, you know, Campbell, Alexander Campbell writes in this way, it's like, what a coincidence that Joseph could produce a book that's supposed to be a history of Native Americans.

The Book of Mormon and Conversion to Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:14:58] But what it actually is is a treatise that attempts to resolve all the contemporary debates within Protestant Christianity and Catholic Christianity. Right. Like, you know, if you want to look at what the Book of Mormon likely, most likely was, even from a secular, objective standpoint, it was Joseph's attempt to bridge all the debates, to resolve or at least address most of the main debates going on in the early 1800s around Christianity, and then to provide a pathway to the future that was exciting. Is that fair? That's what I'm seeing.

John Turner [01:15:36] I think that's. I think that's totally fair. And you can see it in the lives of some of the people that we're talking about. You know, the young family. They had relatives who were in the main branch of Methodism. Then all these siblings get into reform Methodism.

John Turner [01:15:56] Heber Kimball actually joins a Baptist church, I think, just weeks or months before he's baptized as a Mormon. So there's a lot of options out there. I don't think it's crazy that Joseph Smith, when he later narrates the first vision, that he leans into this sense of confusion and chaos.

John Turner [01:16:24] And absolutely, the Book of Mormon announces, basically, we're going to cut through all of that chaos and conclusion. And here is Christ's true church, reformed. And you don't have to continue debating whether you should join, which are this, that, or the other Baptist church or the Methodist church. Here's the one church, and this is the way Christianity is meant to be practiced. And a part of that is the power of God is here.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] Yeah. And Brigham Young, for whatever he was, whatever his faults were, he was a hardworking, committed, serious guy who, in his own mindset, I think, had a lot of integrity or discipline if he could channel it in a way that he could fully commit to. And that's what I see in Mormonism for Brigham Young is an iron rod that he can cling to, trust 100%, give 100% of his life to, and then just thrive in ways he would have never been able to thrive if he was just left with a bunch of these random churches that were all just trying to figure stuff out. He needed a dude to say, I'm God's prophet, and this is the way.

John Dehlin [01:17:46] Because that's what that. He needed that, you know, later. He's got this quote. Any. You'll know the quote. Like, any teaching that does any. Any gospel that doesn't have the power to, like, transform lives and save people isn't really worth its salt. What's the quote? You know the quote I'm talking about?

John Turner [01:18:03] It is something like that.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] Yeah. Like, that's what I think. That's Brigham Young's tell. That's what he was looking for. He was looking for a prophet, not saying, hey, I'm one of many good paths. He was looking for a guy to say, I talk to God and I can show you the way. And this is the church, not just a church.

John Turner [01:18:21] Yeah. Well, speaking of the way Brigham Young approached this, he does make it clear he gave it a lot of thought. He later says, I didn't believe when I heard the first sermon. I didn't believe on the second sermon. I didn't jump in the whole first year. I was acquainted with this. But he.

John Turner [01:18:48] He does feel that it's a spiritual breakthrough. So the way Heber Kimball tells the story, again, this is just after he was joined a Baptist church. So I guess it is hard for a lot of these people to settle down spiritually.

John Turner [01:19:08] He is with Brigham, one of Brigham's brothers, and with their father. And he writes, the glory of the Lord shone upon us and caused such great joy to spring up in our bosoms that we were hardly able to contain ourselves. And we did Shout aloud hosanna to God and the Lamb.

John Turner [01:19:32] And I think at that point, Brigham and Heber and other members of the Young family, they're saying, look, we've got to figure out whether or not this is the truth. And they pack up a few things and they go in January of 1832 to visit a branch of the church in Pennsylvania. Miriam Young, at that point, is well enough to travel, so she's involved in this investigation.

John Turner [01:20:05] And that is an opportunity for them to really see at least a small branch of the church in worship and fellowship. And they see these Mormons in Pennsylvania speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophesying. And the, you know, the Reform Methodists had been sort of a step in that direction, but here is sort of Pentecostal Mormonism in full force. And Brigham and Heber and the others, they basically say, this is exactly what we've been looking for.

John Dehlin [01:20:48] Yeah. I was going to make this conclusion as we bridge now to his life as a Mormon. And that's just that if. If all Joseph Smith did in the creation of the Book of Mormon is convert Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, it was worth the entire enterprise because what. What a get, you know?

John Turner [01:21:11] Yeah, well. And it was a solid get. Right. So we talked in the Joseph Smith podcast about the fact that Joseph could wear out a lot of his followers. Right. Like he was never done. There was always a new initiative, there was a new challenge, a new teaching, and there were plenty of people who stuck with him through thick and thin, but there were also a lot of people who fell away. Brigham Young was a thick and, through thick and thin, convert. I mean, as far as we can tell from the records, once he was in, he was all in, and he was in for good.

John Turner [01:21:53] And no matter what else happened, the fact that he had experienced the power of God through this movement, became convinced that it was Christ's true church and that Joseph was God's prophet. Nothing else that Joseph Smith did or could do, and nothing that happened would shake things, those. Those foundations.

John Dehlin [01:22:20] Yeah. His loyalty was probably his defining quality as a Mormon. His loyalty to Joseph and to the. And to the enterprise. Right.

John Turner [01:22:28] Yeah. And just unwavering. Not that he was. He wasn't ignorant about Joseph's shortcomings, and he wasn't. It's. It's not as if he couldn't be battered by events, but nothing, Nothing could shake his faith in the church and in Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:22:50] Yeah. Should we talk about Brigham and Heber meeting, meeting Joseph and what it was like when they met him for the first time?

Brigham Young Meets Joseph Smith

John Turner [01:22:59] Sure. So they go to meet him shortly after Miriam's death, which is September of 1832. And that basically frees Brigham from his immediate responsibility to care for his ailing wife. He. I can't remember who he leaves the daughters with, but Heber Kimball and one of Brigham's brothers, I think his brother Joseph, they decide to go to Kirtland to meet the prophet of the church they've joined.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Oh, by the way, before he meets Joseph, he was made an elder immediately after being baptized, right?

John Turner [01:23:45] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:46] So missionary work in Canada before he ever met Joseph or.

John Turner [01:23:51] That's absolutely right.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] So, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just thought that was interesting.

John Turner [01:23:57] No, and that's in Brigham's own journal that he's baptized and ordained to the office of an elder. He later recalls, before my clothes were dry. So it's pretty, pretty instantaneously. And so he immediately becomes an itinerant Mormon preacher, which is sort of second nature to the family because they've, they've sort of been itinerant Methodist exhorters. And so it's just sort of switching, Switching messages.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] Okay.

John Turner [01:24:42] And then, then, you know, and I would also say, you know, a lot of people sort of presume that people converted because of Joseph Smith's charisma, but Brigham and Heber and their families, they're one of many cases in which people convert through encounters with the Book of Mormon and with Mormon elders. It doesn't hinge on Joseph's charisma, but also, like a lot of converts, they want to go meet the man. And so they go to Kirtland in November of 1832.

John Turner [01:25:23] And Brigham Young later recalls, you know, I, I, I didn't, I didn't really know what to, what to expect. You know, I, I'd probably find some kind of holy man, maybe holed up in a study dictating revelation or working on a translation or something like that. And instead, Joseph is chopping wood and, you know, out in the forest, and Joseph stops, puts down his ax, shakes hands with Brigham and the others, and then they, you know, they help him finish off the chore. So I think they connect in part because of those humble and unpretentious origins.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] And do you, do you have it at your fingertips, the description of how Brigham found Joseph to be. And I've got notes here if you want me to start.

John Turner [01:26:30] Yeah. So I know he expected to find him in his sanctum, dispensing spiritual blessings and directions about how to build the Zion of God on the earth, but I don't know, maybe you have another quote in mind.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] I have. Quick to laugh. So Brigham found Joseph Smith, four years younger, quick to laugh, self aware. I don't know why I wrote that, but I wrote that chopping wood. Brigham and Heber helped him chopped wood. And I just. After thinking about all those similarities, I would just imagine Brigham saw a lot of his own self and history in Brother Joseph. In other words, I would guess they had a lot in common. That Brigham was able to feel even in the first few hours of meeting.

John Turner [01:27:24] I think that's, I think that is on the nose for sure. And you know Brigham. So I'm sort of speculating here, but I imagine he was probably a little nervous to meet Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith, he's formed this church, he's published the Book of Mormon, he's probably heard people saying all sorts of amazing things about Joseph. Brigham, I mean, like Joseph, I suppose, you know, he was, he was an uneducated guy. He was very humble. He talked about what a terrible preacher he was. Starting off, he says he used to get headaches. You know, he didn't know what words to use when he got up and, and talked to people. And so I think he probably has some apprehension. And when he found Joseph in those. And he probably wanted to make a good impression. Right. But when he found Joseph in those humble circumstances, I think he immediately felt at ease.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Yeah. Yeah. And then I just had this thought that like after meeting Joseph, it's probably fair to say that for the next 12 years, Brigham Young was away from Joseph a lot more than he was with Joseph. Is that, is that pretty fair to say in terms of total number of time where Brigham was dwelling?

John Turner [01:29:00] That's probably right. I mean, they, they have a fair amount of time together in Kirtland and then sometime together in Nauvoo. But you're right. Brigham serves a number of missions. He's. He's often on the go, so he's sort of in and out.

John Dehlin [01:29:20] And, and what I would think is when you have two headstrong people, if they're around each other too much, they can start to really go at each other. Right. See each other as a threat, see, see each other's weaknesses. And I just think it was probably good for Joseph to have Brigham gone a lot, still enough in touch to be his loyal supporter and to, you know, be in contact. But also that Brigham Young could go do his own thing because Brigham did like to do his own thing. You know what I mean?

John Turner [01:29:47] He did. But in terms of loyalty to Joseph, I would say that he was, I mean, you know, I narrate a couple of instances in the biography where there's evidence of at least some disagreement. But he's, Brigham is not like one of the Pratt brothers. He's not like Parley or Arson Pratt who will butt heads with Joseph.

John Turner [01:30:20] He is more of a loyalty foot soldier. And so I think that's another reason why, you know, they mesh pretty well. I, I will also say I don't think, I don't think Brigham was ever exactly a confidant or inner, inner circle with Joseph Smith.

John Turner [01:30:52] And so I don't see him as much as some other people like the Pratts or W.W. phelps. He's not a source of sort of theological creativity for Joseph. He's not someone like, I mean he's, he's in the inner, inner circle in terms of plural marriage. But I don't think he's as much of a day to day confidant as somebody like William Clayton either. But he's loyal, he's someone that Joseph can depend on. And you know, so that's, this is a different sort of relationship.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Well, in terms of Brigham Young's long standing loyalty, sometimes I wonder if that's a feature, not a bug, that, that he wasn't in the inner circle because look at what happened to, you know, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Sydney Rigdon, you know, John C. Bennett, William Law. Like more often than not being brought into the inner circle leaves you on the outs at the end of the day. So really quickly, one final parallel I want to note between Joseph and Brigham is Joseph was brought towards the Book of Mormon and the Restoration in part because of the death of Hyrum. And I wonder whether the death of Miriam in the same way the death of a loved one also focused Brigham Young even more towards what would end up being the Mormon restoration.

Contrasting Joseph Smith and Brigham Young

John Dehlin [01:32:27] I just wanted to note that parallel as well. If Miriam's death might have been as significant on the mindset of Brigham Young as Alvin's was to Joseph. But one of the reasons I mentioned differences between Brigham and Joseph is because you mentioned that when Joseph. Now we're going to speed through the Kirtland and the Missouri and the Nauvoo time period because we don't want to re adjudicate the entire Joseph Smith series. But one thing I noted was that when Joseph Smith in Kirtland came out with the three degrees of Glory, sons of perdition, Spirit, prison kind of theology that ends up in DNC 76 that you note that Brigham Young wasn't immediately enamored by those teachings, is that right?

John Turner [01:33:13] That's correct. So he specifically says, you know, that my traditions were such that when the vision, this vision of these three kingdoms or degrees of heavenly glory, when the vision came first to me, it was so directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, wait a little. I did not reject it, but I could not understand it. And again, that also points to a difference between Brigham and some of these other men in Joseph's orbit that I've mentioned. He could sort of chew on things. You know, sometimes when, when other people would hear things they didn't like, they'd be, they'd be right over in Joseph's face complaining about it. And Brigham, he could, he could bite his time and kind of take things in slowly.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] Sometimes that leads to long term commitment when you're able to really internalize things and make them your own versus just accepting everything quickly.

John Turner [01:34:23] Yeah, it does seem to be the case. In Brigham's case, it is actually sort of. On this topic, you mentioned some of these other figures like Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, later on, you know, John C. Bennett is another example. Joseph had a penchant for meeting people, you know, seeing them as a talent that he could use and, you know, making them his right hand. He doesn't do that with Brigham. You know, I think they, they got on well at the start. I think Joseph's impressed with Brigham's spiritual fervor, which manifests in speaking in tongues. Brigham has a recollection of having influenced Joseph in that direction, though. I think Joseph, you know, he's, he's sort of already been engaged with that, but he really distinguishes himself through his spiritual fervor and his loyalty.

John Dehlin [01:35:29] Yeah. And for some reason at this point in the book I write that early Mormonism was all about the theology and the doctrine that Joseph Smith was putting forth. And I get the impression that towards the end of Joseph Smith's life, it moves away from all of that being as central and it's more about follow the prophet Joseph's authority, loyalty to Joseph. And it, it, I don't, I don't know if that's true, but for some reason in my notes at this point I'm writing that, that they're early. It's all about the doctrine, the theology, the controversies, the Protestant stuff. And then it just becomes more and more about Joseph's personality and, and, and believing and following him, regardless of what crazy doctrine he comes up with.

John Turner [01:36:17] Yeah, no, I mean, I think there's some truth to that, because it's partly because early on, this is a really small, fledgling movement.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Yeah.

John Turner [01:36:25] And Joseph, he can't be so imperious. He can't demand that people accept. Accept everything. There's a little bit more negotiation. But for, for Brigham, you know, it does seem to have been both of those things from the start. Yeah, he, he is very, very much taken with Joseph's leadership. There's a quote, a later recollection of his that I think is pretty indicative. He says, when I first saw Joseph Smith, he took heaven and brought it down to earth, and he took the earth and brought it up. And sort of, as you were alluding to with Miriam's death, this, you know, her death, it makes it possible for Brigham to more fundamentally reorient his life. I mean, he probably could have with her as well. But he goes off on missions. By the next year, he decides to move his daughters to Kirtland and so

John Dehlin [01:37:41] that he could leave them.

John Turner [01:37:42] Well, you, you can't. I just think you can't over emphasize how significant gathering is for 19th century Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:37:54] So tell us what you mean by that. What do you mean by gathering?

John Turner [01:37:57] So let's say you're living in Mendon, New York, and you're a craftsman and you decide to ditch the Methodists for the Baptists, which is basically what Heber C. Kimball does at one point. Well, you're still a craftsman in mended New York. Right. You still have, you still have your, your life there. You're going somewhere different on Sunday, and maybe you're going somewhere different for a meeting middle of the week, when, if you join, if you're baptized as a Mormon and you choose to gather, which in a way is almost like a second, second order conversion, I think you're leaving your life behind. You're going somewhere new. You're living with other converts. I mean, it's a totally different proposition. And so when Brigham and the Kimballs and other members of the Young family, when they take that step in 1833, it's really beginning a much higher level of commitment and a reorientation of their lives.

John Dehlin [01:39:14] Yeah. And in my modern fatherly responsibilities, the dad that never wanted to miss a soccer game or a talent show, you know, or even like a parent teacher meeting, that's how I felt like I needed to do my best to parent. I'm not saying I was perfect at that. This is such a different mindset where he, like, his wife has died, he's got two daughters, he brings them to Kirtland only to leave them and go be a missionary. And I'm just thinking, come on, man, that's, that's irresponsible. That's. But, but I think that's present. Tell me if that's presentism because I'm sure he loved his kids, but he really believed in, like you say, the gathering and in the restoration. And he felt like it was his duty and his mission and his purpose, even if it was that great sacrifice to leave his family and go be a missionary.

John Turner [01:40:11] Yeah, I mean, like you, I can't really put myself in that position and imagine making those choices. I will, I will say that there is again. I mean, I've been talking about like moving to Kirtland as a real rupture. But there's a lot of things about early Mormonism that resemble Methodism of the time.

John Turner [01:40:37] Everything from, you know, quarterly and annual conferences, which are Methodist feature, but also itinerant preaching. And so the Youngs, when they had been Methodists, they were used to the idea that, you know, if you, if you believed in your church, you would be going out and, and preaching.

John Turner [01:41:04] And I think it's almost second nature to them that that's what they're going to do when once they, once they are baptized into the Church of Christ, once they become Mormons, they don't hesitate. And whether or not they should have, who knows? I do think the strain of missionary work, it's so pronounced for so many 19th century families in particular, how unique

Missionary Work and the Latter-day Saint Impulse

John Dehlin [01:41:38] was this missionary impulse for Latter Day Saints versus other. You just mentioned the Reform Methodists or whatever. But like I just. If Joseph did some things that were genius, and I think we all would agree that he did, one was just sending missionaries to Western Europe almost immediately and throughout his entire. Because it created a constant pipeline of converts. Right. That was genius. But these are men. Not only were they leaving their wife, they were leaving their wives. To go be missionaries for years. And so how much of that was uniquely Joseph's idea versus something he got from other traditions? Because it seems uniquely significant in terms of the commitment, missionary commitment that Joseph had from the very beginning.

John Turner [01:42:37] That's such a great question. So it is pretty unusual in the sense of. I've mentioned the fact that itinerant preachers were like, they were central to the spread of Methodism, but those were for the most part young unmarried men who would, you know, preach these circuits in sort of along the American frontier and spread Methodism. So what the Youngs were doing when they were younger, you know, they, they, it was more in that vein. Although I think they continue to do some preaching after they married. The idea that it would be customary for married members of a church to spend long periods on missions, that

John Turner [01:43:34] is unusual because that just meant not just the sacrifice of time, but it meant the sacrifice of money and often leaving wives in the lurch financially. So that I think that is unusual. You're also right to say it has a lot to do with the growth of the movement.

John Dehlin [01:43:57] Yeah. Yep. All right. Well, so Brigham Young is a very successful missionary. I was stunned at how successful he was. I've got some notes here. I don't ever want to steal your thunder, so I'm always going to invite you to just take over. But also, if you want me to give you time to look something up, I can read my notes. What do you want me to do?

John Turner [01:44:22] Yeah, so it's interesting because he talks about how wretched he was as a preacher initially, but, no, I think he's effective. You know, one of the great. One of the other great features of early Mormonism is that not only did Joseph send missionaries out, they also. He also told them to keep journals. And so, you know, Brigham records his missionary travels, and some of the time it's Brigham and one of his brothers. But they do make converts. They hold a lot of meetings. They preach about how the Bible and the Book of Mormon, you know, preach the same gospel and support each other. Sometimes they're baptizing, you know, 10 people a day, which is pretty. Pretty impressive. He takes some of those converts to Kirtland to meet Joseph Smith. And so, yeah, so he's good. He's a good missionary foot soldier.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] Yeah. I have 10 converts a day in Kingston, Ontario. That's. That's. That's better than the Guatemala baptisms where they were doing 30amonth. I thought 30 or 40amonth was excessive. In Guatemala, during my mission, he was doing 10 converts a day. That's amazing.

John Turner [01:45:53] Yeah, I. I mean, you know, of course, he's got also times of frustration when nobody wants to listen to what he has to say and people won't give him lodging or food. But I. I imagine. And again, this is a little speculative based on what he says. He's not a polished, brilliant preacher like a Sidney Rigdon, but I think he wins people over with, you know, plain speaking sincerity about what he has seen and what he believes.

John Dehlin [01:46:37] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I thought it was fun to see that some of the scriptures that Brigham Young relied on, like Ezekiel 37, about the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph, those were scriptures Verses that I was taught in my scripture chase years in early morning seminary in high school. It was, I don't know why, it was just fun for me to think that the scriptures I was learning in high school as a Mormon seminary student were the same scriptures that Brigham Young was using to convert people.

Zion's Camp and Brigham's Rising Loyalty to Joseph

John Dehlin [01:47:08] I don't know why I felt the definity for that, but I did. I'm just being honest. Okay. So, yeah, so, so let's talk about, let's talk about anything you think is relevant to say about Kirtland and Zion's Camp in Missouri and you know, the temple being announced and the making the establishment of Zion in Missouri and how and even Zion's Camp. And we'll kind of end on that for today and then we'll, you know, we'll, we'll give people a preview for what's coming next.

John Turner [01:47:49] Sure. Well, and I can't help but plug our Zion's Camp episode from the Joseph Smith podcast. So if people are not super familiar with that story, we have a lot of content there. So to, to just, I want to mention he does remarry after moving to Kirtland to marry Ann.

John Turner [01:48:12] I always forget if it's angle or Angel. One of Young's brother in laws had baptized her into the church. They get married in February of 1834. And you know, kind of the way Brigham puts it, I've basically now I've got a wife who can take charge of my family and free me up for missionary work on science camp.

John Turner [01:48:43] One of the things that is really noteworthy about Science Camp is it is an ultimately failed attempt to restore the Jackson County Saints to their homes and properties. Joseph raises an army of volunteers, mostly from northeastern Ohio, marches to western Missouri in the spring of 1844.

John Turner [01:49:14] When, when they get there, it's clear that, that they will be violently opposed if they go back into Jackson County. And so Joseph has a revelation that basically says, you know, the Saints don't deserve to have their land redeemed yet.

John Turner [01:49:44] So this is, this is pretty tough for some people on the march. This is simply failure. But that's not how Brigham Young sees it. He writes, or he later recalls that Zion's camp gave us an experience that Kirtland could not buy.

John Turner [01:50:09] I watched everything that Joseph did and the Spirit he did it in. And Brigham Young comes back to Kirtland and there are people from the march who are criticizing Joseph's behavior and leadership and Brigham is having none of it. He just absolutely backs Joseph, says he acted like a man of God on The march.

John Turner [01:50:46] And Joseph very much rewards Brigham's loyalty. He names him to the Kirtland High Council. And a couple of years later, or a couple of. Well, not a couple of years later. The next year, Brigham is ordained as one of the original members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. So in terms of Brigham Young catching Joseph Smith's attention further as a loyal and trustworthy associate, Zion's camp is definitely pivotal.

John Dehlin [01:51:33] Yeah. And it. Yeah, it definitely not just with Brigham Young, but with others becomes one of those ironic experiences where if you're just looking at it with presentist eyes, it was this huge debacle, a huge failure in Joseph's leadership abilities. A couple dozen people died from like, what, malaria or whatever.

John Turner [01:51:56] Cholera.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Cholera. And Joseph backs down. His prophecy doesn't come true. And we're all thinking, oh, well, that should have been a reason for Brigham Young to defect and leave. But no, you know, we learn from the. I guess the Jehovah's Witnesses and others that sometimes. And even by. Was it. Was it Joseph Campbell? I forget. But like, who was the variety of religious experiences. Guy who wrote. Wrote at Harvard.

John Turner [01:52:24] And William James.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] Yeah, William James. That sometimes failed prophecies lead to people believing more in a movement instead of less. And Zion's Camp. Brigham Young is a perfect example with Zion's Camp of that happening. Joseph Smith failed as a leader. It was a disaster. And Brigham Young and Zion's camp more committed to Joseph in the movement than he was before.

John Turner [01:52:53] Yeah. And part of it is I got to spend two months in close quarters with God's prophet. This was amazing. And we had this great adventure together. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, Joseph, yeah, he was kind of hot tempered at times on the march, but he also walked through the mud. He also drank this crappy water along with the rest of us. So for Brigham, you know, it affirmed the things he liked about Joseph Smith. And after all, who ultimately was to blame for the fact that the Saints can't get back to Jackson County? Well, it's the anti Mormons who had driven him out in the first place. So, no, he very much defends Joseph's reputation. And, you know, that's all over the records from that time. It's not just that Brigham's not disenchanted. He's actively engaged in backing Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] Plus, who can't love the guy that can accurately identify Zelf the white Lamanite? Like who? How can you not love that guy?

John Turner [01:54:03] I mean, that's an added plus.

John Dehlin [01:54:05] I wrote that Young keeps the arrow.

John Turner [01:54:08] Yes, that's Right.

John Dehlin [01:54:10] The white Lamanite. That was Joseph identified on Zion's camp. Right.

John Turner [01:54:14] Yeah. So he, at least until 1845, he still had that arrow or arrowhead in his, in his possession. So I think, I think for Brigham, first of all, it was a fun adventure, but then it was just a confirmation of everything that he liked about Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:54:42] Yeah. I have it in here also that Brigham and Joseph sang hymns together. And I'm sure that was bonding. How could that not have been bonding? To sing hymns with the prophet in a two month expedition? Right.

John Turner [01:54:54] Yeah. And Brigham liked to sing. And so. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:55:01] Yeah. Love it. Yeah. And so you've already said this today, but Young defended Smith's reputation. Anytime somebody trashed on Joseph Smith and Zion's camp, Brigham was the first to defend Joseph. Is that right?

John Turner [01:55:14] Absolutely. So, I mean, he, you know, there, there are critics. You know, Joseph does get withering criticism from some in the wake of Zion's camp, and Brigham is having none of it. He's, he's very willing to publicly defend Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:55:32] And I write that the Brigham didn't see any behavior unbecoming a prophet of God on that trip.

John Turner [01:55:39] Yep. Which.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] The man for being mean to his dog. Right?

John Turner [01:55:44] Exactly. I mean, I think if you look at the, if you look at all the records from that trip. Yeah. There are times where Joseph lost his cool, where he, he didn't always behave with the, the most decorum. And I think Brigham, he just doesn't care. It's not like he doesn't care how Joseph acts, but he's like he is willing for Joseph to have flaws. Now publicly he's, he's not going to really entertain them, but he's willing for Joseph to have flaws. The fact that Joseph has flaws for Brigham doesn't mean that Joseph isn't God's prophet.

John Dehlin [01:56:30] Yeah. And maybe some of the things we think of as flaws, Brigham didn't think of his flaws back in the day. Like maybe a leader needs to get mad every once in a while. Right. Maybe that's good leadership.

John Turner [01:56:42] Yeah. And he later comments, you know, Joseph wasn't really good with money and finances, but again, that's not reason for me to reject him as the prophet.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] Yeah. I wrote in here, Young forgot Joseph's failure to redeem Zion because we could all go. Joseph prophesied Jesus would return to Independence, Missouri, and yet it didn't happen. That should be a problem. But Brigham, you wrote Brigham forgot it. Like he didn't really ever care.

John Turner [01:57:13] I think that's absolutely right. I think for Brigham, Joseph let's just put it in really blunt, simple terms. Joseph had changed his life. Joseph had invited him into this new life, this new church, this new community. And Brigham was all in. And really nothing that transpires over the dozen years between when he meets Joseph and when Joseph is killed, Nothing interrupts that.

John Dehlin [01:57:48] Yeah. All right, well, we're hitting up against our two hour limit, so I'm just going to say that Young is rewarded. He's added to the Naboo High Council as a result after, after Zion's Camp. And let's just say this is where we're going to end for today. What a beautiful first two hours. And I'm just really excited to hear about what happens next.

Looking Ahead in the Brigham Young Story

John Turner [01:58:11] John Turner well, as I often said during the Joseph Smith podcast, it will get crazier.

John Dehlin [01:58:19] This is just the beginning. All right, John Turner, thanks for today everybody. Buy this book. Join us in this journey Reading Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet by John Turner. Donate to donorbox.org Brigham Young if you want to financially support this series, give us comments, give us feedback, give us criticisms, give us your own knowledge and information about Brigham Young and the history. And we're excited to go on this journey with you all. And again, John Turner, thanks for all you do.

John Turner [01:58:51] Thanks, John Dehlin. Looking forward to next time.

John Dehlin [01:58:54] All right, y' all take care. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Brigham Young Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody. Thanks, Julia. Thanks, Brooklyn. Thanks for all you do. Take care of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.