Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Brigham Young Podcast, brought to you by Mormon stories podcast. I'm Dr. John Dehlin. It is September 1, 2026. Today we are here for part three of our ongoing discussion with Dr. John G. Turner about his amazing book, Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet. As you will know, we've done 41 episodes with Dr. Turner about Joseph Smith, and now we're on our third about Brigham Young. We've covered up through, you know, Brigham Young serving his mission for the church in the British Isles. I have a few quick questions or comments about that. And today we are going to be mostly focusing on chapter four of this book.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] It's going to be covering sort of the Nauvoo period up through Joseph Smith's death. So if we have the right pace, we'll be finishing with Joseph Smith's martyrdom. And then that would put us onto chapter five next episode, which is about the succession crisis and basically chapter five and whatever we can get to so really quickly. This series is best consumed sequentially. And if you really want to the full experience, go watch the 41 episodes of the Joseph Smith podcast first and then the first two episodes of this series, and then you'll be able to fully enjoy today's episode. We want to thank our donors for making all this possible at Mormon Stories Podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] And if you want to donate to this series to see it all the way through all the chapters of this book, you can donate@donorbox.org Brigham Young. We'll have a link to that in the show notes. And without any further ado, John Turner. Go Cougars. I've got my BYU hat on, you know, to represent Brigham Young. I've got your George Mason hat here. Welcome back to the Brigham Young Podcast, John Turner.

John Turner [00:02:06] I do start to feel like I should be wearing a George Mason hat every week, but I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not a huge hat guy.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Well, football or basketball season hasn't really started yet, so that's true. We'll see if the spirit moves you like it moved Brigham Young and Heber in the UK when they were on their mission. Anything you want to say before we jump into today's episode?

John Turner [00:02:34] As always, I am. I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited that we have so many people interested in Mormon history. Grateful for the chance to talk about Brigham Young and my biography. So I'm here for the party.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Okay. We covered Brigham Young's missionary service. There's just a couple things that I Noted that I wanted to just add, before we jump into his final years with Joseph and Nauvoo, I noted that Brigham Young was more Pentecostal than the PageCostals in the UK he was constantly trying to get people to speak in tongues, to do healings. He was constantly having, I don't know, discussions or debates with Parley P. Pratt about whether the gift of tongues was even necessary. Did I get that right?

John Turner [00:03:30] You. You got that right.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] So Parley wasn't big on tongues, but. But Brigham, Brigham and Heber were. Is that right?

John Turner [00:03:37] So, I mean, I wouldn't call. Quite put it that way. I would say that Parley observed that you don't have to have the gifts of tongues. So that a church is not without gifts if it doesn't have it. I don't remember if he spoke in tongues himself. I'm not sure. I would just say that during these years, Brigham Heber, they were definitely all in on this ecstatic sort of proto Pentecostal spirituality. And I think one thing that's characteristic of Brigham is he wanted other people to experience it for themselves.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Yeah, yeah. And. And again, that's a real significant sign that Brigham Young was a genuine true believer, you know, because he's constantly seeking these spiritual manifestations and trying to get other people to experience them, too. Really quickly, you mentioned that he discouraged magic and something about a Methodist holy kiss that that would lead to evil. What is that?

Brigham Young's British Mission and Early Successes

John Turner [00:04:51] So that's a great question. So there are some passages in the New Testament in which I think it's the Apostle Paul tells early followers of Jesus to greet one another with a holy kiss. And I can't claim to know a whole lot about that, except that on occasion, Christian sects would take inspiration from those biblical passages. And as you can imagine, groups that favored more decorum or worried about men and women kissing each other, they would discourage that sort of thing. So I think that's the. That's the context.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] Got it. You mentioned in. You mentioned that he. That he and the other missionaries were not opposed to drinking wine or tea on their mission. I think that'll be interesting for some who don't realize that the word of wisdom was just a recommendation at this point. And you mentioned the young doesn't really become strict about the word of wisdom until late in his life. I think that's the type of stuff that got Leonard Arrington in trouble. Isn't that right?

John Turner [00:06:10] That could be. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] But the apostles in the 70s, the Mormon apostles in the 70s didn't like the members being reminded that Brigham Young wasn't big on the word of wisdom for mo most of his life. I think that's how I remember it, anyway.

John Turner [00:06:25] I mean, this guy's trouble. He's got t beards, you know, facial hair. So, yeah, he's not always. He's not always the ideal model for a modern Latter Day Saint. But no, he's, you know, he got into t, I think only while he was in England. And then when he gets back to Nauvoo, he asks at a meeting if he's going to be breaking the word of wisdom if he kind of goes home and has a cup of tea. So it's like, oh, no, I'm a little worried I might have to give up this thing I like now that I'm back in Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Was he teasing or no?

John Turner [00:07:04] I think he was worried.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] He was worried.

John Turner [00:07:07] I don't. I don't know. The. The. And this kind of tracks with Jung's own earlier attitude toward alcohol. He asks this at a council meeting, and the council itself leaves the choice up to him, specifically saying that a forced abstinence was not making us free, but putting us under bondage. So sort of this is a word of wisdom. Might be a good idea for you not to drink the tea, but we're going to leave it up to you.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] One thing I thought was interesting was that he made more money as a missionary than he made at home. Even though you talk about terrible poverty and pollution in London, and we've already talked about the terrible poverty that Brigham and his family experienced, especially during the late Nauvoo period, where they're refugees, basically. It sounds like he was living relatively high on the hog as a missionary in the U.K. yeah.

John Turner [00:08:17] So, I mean, that's probably relative. But he does. He does also have this comment that, you know, church members in England, they'll do anything for me. You know, they feed me, they give me clothing, they give me money. They wait on me. And the apostles, they had enough resources to do some traveling, to do some tourism, to buy some items that their family members back home wanted. So young, for instance, Brigham Young writes that when he goes to London, this is a hard place to make converts. So perhaps he did less preaching and he went to see the Crown Jewels. He went to Westminster Abbey, went to the British Museum and the National Gallery.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] And on tour.

John Turner [00:09:09] Yeah, it's kind of on tour. Yeah. I would. I would also say that. Yeah. And I understand the, you know, kind of uncomfortable juxtaposition with life back in Nauvoo. I will say that when, even when Young traveled as a missionary and didn't have any money, he would often work in some tourism, whether in Salem or just visiting other. He kind of also liked religious tourism. He would visit meetings of different religious societies. So I, I think he also was a curious guy and. But at the same time, the apostles were not averse to having some fun mixed in and some purchasing power.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] So I think I remember from last week that he stays in the UK for about a year. Is that right?

John Turner [00:10:04] It's about. Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] And what makes him come. Oh, go ahead.

John Turner [00:10:08] Yeah. No, it's about a year. I think he gets there in. I think he gets there the spring of 1840 and they leave about a year later.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] And as far, I think we covered this last time as well. But as far as you know, he doesn't know that Joseph Smith had already started polygamy up. Up through the end of his mission in the uk Correct.

John Turner [00:10:30] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Were there rumors in the. I know that later there's going to be a lot of rumors and probably reports of polygamy in the, in the British Isles missions later on. Do you know if there were reports of polygamy during the time Brigham Young was there? Did he have to deny or address.

John Turner [00:10:51] That's a great question. I don't think that there were reports of polygamy. There were definitely, and I don't have the specifics at my fingertips, there are definitely reports of sexual indiscretions and bad behavior on the part of the Mormons more generally. I do think, you know, to, you know, the apostles, several of them specifically talk about Joseph introducing the doctrine to them upon their return, within a few months of their return to Nauvoo. John Taylor has recollections of that. So does George A. Smith. So does Brigham Young.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] Okay. And why does he return after a year? Is it just. That's how long he was called for? Was there something that brought him home? Do we know?

John Turner [00:11:45] It's a great question. So the apostles in general return home, and maybe one, it might be that one stays behind to manage affairs there. I think the initial. To be honest, I don't exactly remember. I think the initial plan was for them to be there about a year. I think partly that's because Joseph knows that it's unsustainable for these men to be apart from their families for longer. I think it's also fair to say that, you know, sometimes, sometimes missionaries are sent to places during the 1840s and 1850s and they come back quickly because, you know things. There's no fertile soil for missionary work at all.

John Turner [00:12:36] This is a really different case. This mission is remarkably successful. I think there's something like 4,000 converts during or roughly around that one year period, the church in England has tripled in size. There are hundreds of people getting ready to emigrate to the United States, thousands more thinking about it. So it's been spectacularly successful.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] And I wrote that Brigham Young made the comment that the Brits don't need or understand argument, simple testimony is enough, and that they beg and plead for the Book of Mormon. And I'm like, what? Who in the world has ever begged or pleaded for the Book of Mormon? And I don't mean that with this respect. It's just, I don't think it's a naturally gripping thing necessarily. And the only way I could explain those comments from Brigham Young is just the abject poverty. Because you mentioned that they were telling people in the UK that there were jobs and land back in, back in the United States and back in Naboo. Did I get that right?

John Turner [00:13:52] So that's a great comment and observation. So I would say two things. I think in terms of people taking an interest in this religious movement and converting to it, I don't think it's primarily because of that sort of boosterism.

John Turner [00:14:14] I think at, at first it's because Brigham Young and other missionaries, they're basically making the same pitch to these British Methodists and other radical Protestants. They're making the same pitch that attracted the Young family to this back in the early 1830s, which is pretty simply the power of God is in this movement. You can see miracles like you have heard about in the New Testament. You don't have to just read about them in the Bible. You can look around you and you can see people healed. You can see people speak in tongues. And I think that's why people convert.

John Turner [00:14:57] Yes. At the same time, part of the Mormon pitch is gather with the Saints. And the argument there is definitely multifaceted. It's, you know, the second coming is nigh. Take shelter from the storm, flee Babylon, come to Zion.

John Turner [00:15:24] But it's also that Illinois is a land of milk and honey and you should gather with the Saints for that reason too. That gives you a little extra incentive. I sort of think about it almost as a two step conversion process within early Mormonism. Number one, convert to the church and get baptized. And then there's a higher level of commitment, which is the gathering. And I think the economic angle to that is really significant.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] But what do you make do you? I mean, I guess we can take Brigham Young in his word, and I guess a lot of people have loved the Book of Mormon, but Brits begging and pleading for the Book of Mormon, how would we make sense of. Let's just say we wanted to take him at his word. How do we make sense of that? I've never heard of that.

John Turner [00:16:14] Okay, well, I would probably not take that literally. That's bound to be an exaggeration, I think. What? And so it's not Brits in general. It's not as if you're going to Kensington in London and people. People are accosting you on the street and asking you for a copy of the Book of Mormon or they want to hear the gospel. It's. There are these particular pockets of English Protestantism that are very receptive to the brand of Christianity that the missionaries are preaching about. So I think it's that, yeah, in some places there is a remarkable interest in the missionaries message. I don't know that it's the Book of Mormon per se, and I'd have to. I'd have to look more at the context of that, but that's my hunch, John.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Okay. And just the last thing I'll say is that I am literally a descendant through multiple lines of this missionary effort. So clearly my ancestors at many points resonated both in the UK and as they migrated here. My ancestors become leaders in the very, very early church, and most of them are converts from the British Isles. So, you know, if I'm going to argue with this, I have to argue with my own great, great, great grandparents, I guess.

John Turner [00:17:38] Yeah, well, and I think if we, if we wanted to think about the trajectory of the church and its growth in the 19th century, this is a really significant time period. Now, nobody. I'm exaggerating again a little bit, but hardly anyone converts to Mormonism in England after the church publicly acknowledges polygamy. So the real catalyst for a lot of growth takes place in the early 1840s when the apostles are there under Brigham Young's leadership. And in terms of proving himself as an effective leader, it's really the first time Brigham has exercised authority in an extended way. Brigham has proved himself very, very capable.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Yeah. All right, so he comes back in 1841, reunites with his wife. It's Marianne, right?

John Turner [00:18:39] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] And they have what, two kids by this point? One or two kids?

John Turner [00:18:43] I think they have four by this point. They had twins, I think, in 1836, and had one before that. And I think there's been another.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] Okay. And so Brigham comes back, he is president of the quorum of the 12. Joseph's knee deep, chest deep, head deep in polygamy. What happens? You mentioned a seize siege mentality in Nauvoo. Are you saying as early as 1841 and was that a spillover from the Missouri and Ohio time period?

John Turner [00:19:16] So when I think about a siege mentality in Nauvoo, I think about it really from the spring of 1842 on, when everything with John C. Bennett erupts.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Oh, okay.

John Turner [00:19:29] Because there's, there's some rumblings of anti Mormonism in Hancock county. But from the spring of 1842 until the saints undertake the exodus, it's almost constant. Constant and accelerating pressure.

John C. Bennett and the Spiritual Wifery Scandals

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Okay, so talk about that siege mentality. And so does Brigham Young. Do we know about any run ins? I mean, John C. Bennett's infamous, he's one of the most infamous characters in all of Joseph Smith's life for sure. And in early Mormonism, does Brigham Young have any encounters with John C. Bennett? Were they buds? Were they enemies? Do we know?

John Turner [00:20:12] Yeah. So John C. Bennett comes on the scene when Brigham is in England. So he's not there at the outset and he start, he gets some news about Bennett when he's in England. And I get the sense that Young is a little bit wary. So he says in a letter, they say he is anointed and a great man has the spirit. But then Young adds that Bennett has the spirit of war. And some think by his speech that there will be war with the Missourians.

John Turner [00:20:53] I get the sense, and this could be me reading into it. I mean, Brigham young had spent 10, you know, nine, 10 years, a decade of his life slowly gaining Joseph Smith's trust, slowly gaining positions of leadership. And so Bennett comes along and is immediately exalted, almost immediately into the First Presidency. And so Brigham, he comes back to a very different Nauvoo, one that is, you know, starting to thrive. The population's growing, the, the wealth is growing, but there are also really different dynamics of power. And Brigham doesn't reflect on this at length. I get the sense that he was a bit uneasy about Bennett's influence.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] Okay, yeah. He must have felt like he lost some status with Joseph by being away, even though he was building the future of the church and sacrificing a great deal. So if the siege mentality follows the John Bennett debacle and the John Bennett debacle is intermixed with the spiritual wifery scandals and Joseph's actual propositioning of, of women, what is it? What do we know about Brigham Young's awareness, concern, involvement with the spiritual wifery stuff leading up to John C. Bennett's estrangement?

John Turner [00:22:37] So we know that by. Well, so there's a lot of the slot we don't know, but there are some things we know. So we know, or I think can feel pretty confident that By January of 1842, Brigham Young has accepted Joseph's doctrine of plural marriage. He is there and I believe he seals Joseph to Agnes Kulbrit Smith. So the widow. A widow. And so that's a clear sign that Brigham is, you know, has embraced this doctrine. And then by March 1842, Brigham makes his first proposal of plural marriage, which involves him very much in the maelstrom surrounding John C. Bennett, because there's fallout from, from that failed proposal.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Okay, so let's slow walk Brigham's introduction into the principle, how he was involved in Joseph's realm, in his own realm, his. Any propositions, successful or failed marriages. Let's slow walk. I mean, because if there's one thing Brigham Young's known for in history, polygamy, more so than the Mountain Meals massacre. So let's, let's get into it.

John Turner [00:24:11] Yeah. So I find some of Brigham's recollections, you know, they're quite interesting. So according, according to his later recall, in early 1842, after he's officiated at one plural marriage, Joseph told him to, quote, go and get another wife. And he says this came as a command, not as a choice. I think that's, you know, that's, that's interesting. So William Clayton, who is another polygamy confidant, he didn't really need a command. You know, he was, when he, when he heard about this, he sort of had somebody in mind and he was excited. Now, I think what's fair to say about Brigham is he complies with this command pretty quickly. So In March of 1842, he makes a proposal of marriage to a 17 year old English convert named Martha Brotherton.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] Really quickly, we mentioned last time that the famous quote for Brigham is, I desired the grave when I was told I had to practice polygamy. It sounds like you're saying Joseph really did have to twist his arm and it really was a painful experience. And we have no reason not to believe that he did. Brigham Young didn't love Marianne. Right.

John Turner [00:25:42] We have no reason not to think that was the case. I think that is true in Brigham's letters to her. I think there's also concern about his relationship with her going forward. And So I don't mean to be a little bit, I don't know, I feel a little weaselly on this point. And it's because Brigham himself, his own recollections are a little bit two sided. So on the one hand he says that Joseph commanded me. I felt as if the grave was better for me.

John Turner [00:26:22] But he also says after he discusses this with Joseph, and presumably he prays about it and thinks about it, he gets a divine. He gets a divine. Yes. That fills him with exhilaration. So he says, I was filled with the Holy Ghost. I could jump up and holler, my blood is clear as India rum. He was ready to go ahead.

John Turner [00:26:53] So I think there's maybe an initial reaction of dread. And I don't see any reason not to believe that because it tracks with what a lot of other men said. But then he is on board quickly, and once he's on board, he's all in.

Martha Brotherton and Early Polygamy Proposals

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Okay, so Brotherton, Martha Brotherton is his first attempt, is that right?

John Turner [00:27:21] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] All right, let's talk about that.

John Turner [00:27:23] So again, he's friends, he's friends with the family.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] And they were converted in the uk.

John Turner [00:27:31] They were converted in the uk. Brigham baptized one of Martha's sisters, Elizabeth Brotherton, who I think later becomes a plural wife of Parley Pratt and Young Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball, Parley Pratt. They all knew the Brotherton family quite well. They had respect for Thomas Brotherton, Martha Brotherson's father. And so this tracks in some ways with the way that Joseph thought about plural marriage. You know, he wanted families that he could trust. And I imagine that Brigham liked Martha and thought that her family was solid in the church.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] Okay, so he, and he probably, you know, thought she was cute. Right. I mean, is that, is it fair to say that that's how this often worked or not? Is that.

John Turner [00:28:42] Yeah, So I think that's fair to say in the sense that Brigham himself, and we mentioned this last week, he specifically allows or allowed that the 12, when they were in England as missionaries, they were attracted to women. And he says they didn't do anything and instead would facilitate these women coming to the States, even if they ultimately married other women. So, you know, he says that he had, he basically says he's had lust in his heart for women, but he didn't commit adultery. So, yeah, in another way of putting it, yeah, he probably thought she was pretty. He, she was cute. He was probably attracted to her. And, but we don't, we don't really know if that drove his choice or if the Bonds he perceived with her family drove the choice. It probably was both.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] And is there anything auspicious or inauspicious about the, the, the proposal? The pitch to Martha wasn't in. In the upper room, the famous upper room of the red brick store.

John Turner [00:30:10] So, yeah, so this, of course, is. Is sort of an infamous story, right? And so we basically have two sources to go on. One is just a sort of comment from Hyrum Smith at a church meeting about the fact that there are rumors that Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young shut a sister in a room for several days and tried to get her to believe that a man could have two wives.

John Turner [00:30:45] And, you know, Hyrum doesn't name names, and he basically says this is. There's this crazy rumor going around. And, you know, of course, the 12 would never do such a thing. So Brotherton, later in the summer, signs an affidavit and tells the story from her side. Now, when she signs that affidavit, she does so in cooperation with John C. Bennett.

John Turner [00:31:20] Because of that, many faithful historians have cast doubt on it. But let's tell the story, and then we can talk about whether to believe it. So she says that Young and Heber C. Kimball persuaded her to meet with Joseph Smith in the upper room above Smith store. So the second upper story of the red brick store.

John Turner [00:31:53] And when they get there, Smith and Kimball leave. So she's just in the room with Young, who then closes the window, draws the curtain, locks the door, and then asks her if she would marry him if it were lawful and right.

John Turner [00:32:17] And then he says, you know, brother Joseph's had a revelation from God that, you know, men can do like Abraham did. And if you accept of me, I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom. And if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come.

John Turner [00:32:41] And she apparently is horrified by this idea. And Young asks her if he can give her a kiss and then goes to fetch Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] Okay, I. I was having my orthodox Mormon brain on for a second, like, this is holy. This is sacred. He's like, building his celestial, eternal family, and then he's asking for a kiss. And you kind of lost me there a little bit.

John Turner [00:33:13] Yeah. So I'd have to go back and look at the language of the affidavit. But essentially the way she tells the story is she won't consent to marry him. So he sort of asks for a consolation, and I don't think he gets that either.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] What does that have to do with the new and everlasting covenant.

John Turner [00:33:35] And, no, I don't. I don't think he phrased it as a holy kiss. So. And then I get, from the sound of it, then she's left there until he comes back with Joseph. And Joseph is really glib about it. You know, if you don't, you know, give it a try, essentially get married to Brigham. If you don't like it, I can make you free again.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] Okay.

John Turner [00:34:05] If Young tires of you, I'll take you on.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] What the.

John Turner [00:34:10] Yeah, so. And, well, these are all the reasons why people have been a little skeptical of this source. And then. Then she says that Young, you know, got a little bit more serious and said to her, did you ever see me act in any way wrong in England, Martha? So essentially, you know, I'm an upstanding, upright man, so you should take. Take me seriously. And brotherton Martha then I think smartly says, you know, you got to give me some time to think about this. Which. That was pretty common with polygamy proposals. And Young was wrong about how solid the family was in terms of its commitment to the church, despite difficult teachings, because I think with the exception of Elizabeth brotherton Parley P. Pratt's plural wife, Thomas brotherton Martha and the family, they leave Nauvoo. They are convinced that Joseph and the 12 are deceivers.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] I mean, that makes sense, right?

John Turner [00:35:37] That makes sense. This is not what they signed. Yeah. It's not what they signed up for.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] It does not sound like a holy endeavor. It sounds like a. From the hip. I'll just have to say it. Boys being boys, men being men in the. You know, in the unflattering sense, it just. It just sounds like the wild, polygamous West.

John Turner [00:35:58] Yeah. So, you know, what do we do with this story? I think there have been people who have cast doubt on the story in its entirety, partly because Hiram publicly rejects this rumor. But whether or not everything, you know, we don't know if John C. Bennett had, you know, what his role was in shaping the affidavit.

John Turner [00:36:28] But what I think we can feel pretty clear about is Brigham proposes plural marriage to Martha Brotherton in a way that makes her very uncomfortable and makes her family leave the church. I think also including some of that suggestion that Young didn't do anything untoward in England, I think that gives it a bit more credibility whether or not Young tried to kiss her, whether or not Joseph was really so glib when he talked about, you know, divorce or leveling up further.

John Turner [00:37:10] You know, I don't think. I don't think we know that, but at least the rough outlines of the story. I have confidence in them.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] All right, well, Brigham Young strikes out with Martha Brotherton, loses the entire family to the Restoration. But something tells me he proceeds undeterred and he's ready to go get up to bat again.

John Turner [00:37:34] You know, your instincts are correct, John Dehlin. Absolutely. Just one final comment on Martha Brotherton. The other reason, another reason that I give it credibility, is Young's denial is very careful. He terms her accusation a base falsehood with regard to any private intercourse or unlawful conduct or conversation with me. So he could have just said, I absolutely never made that proposal to her. But he doesn't exactly say that. And so I think that gives it some credence, but yes. On to the next perspective wife.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Now let's. When we get to the part of the John C. Bennett explosion, I want to ask some questions, but keep going until we're there in the timeline.

John Turner [00:38:32] Yeah. So interestingly so there is that explosion, and that doesn't deter Brigham's second proposal. In mid June of 1842, he is sealed to a 20 year old woman named Lucy Decker. Joseph performed the sealing. She was married to a man named William Seeley at the time. She'd married him around the age of 14.

John Turner [00:39:05] So very young. Marriage is not just a polygamy thing. He was still in Nauvoo. There's a tradition that I can't verify that William Seeley was an alcoholic who had been neglectful of Lucy. I don't know whether or not that. Whether or not that is the case. Young knew. Knew him on some level. They had some business transactions that summer.

John Turner [00:39:45] Probably Lucy's parents, or at least her father was aware of the plural marriage. Brigham Young had known Lucy's father for quite some time. So in a way, his second attempt was probably more promising from the look of it than the first.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] She was 20 years old. Joseph performed the marriage.

John Turner [00:40:17] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] Okay.

John Turner [00:40:19] And so this is, you know, this is, as with many of Joseph's plural wives, this is a polyandrous sealing. So she's civilly married to William Seely. She is sealed for time and eternity to Brigham Young, but she continues to live with Sealy for the time. I think. I think she continues to live with Sealy. She may have been with her parents, but she did not live with Brigham Young.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Okay, so it wasn't the Lion's house in Nauvoo.

John Turner [00:40:55] No, not yet.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] Okay. Any other marriages we want to mention or ceilings before the John C. Bennett eruption?

John Turner [00:41:04] Well, let's talk about John C. Bennett and, you know, we have plenty of wives to come in the future.

The Siege Mentality in Nauvoo Leadership

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Okay. All right, so I, I, you know, Anything you want to say before I ask my question?

John Turner [00:41:23] No, you go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Okay. So we all know that there's this weird confusion because a believing Mormon would just. While most believing Mormons would have never heard of John C. Bennett, if a believing Mormon had heard of John C. Bennett, they would just say he was a horrible, horrific, you know, wretch of a man who abused women and, you know, was a terrible person. And he got excommunicated for whoring around, you know, Naboo and maybe having a brothel and just the worst human ever. The only thing I don't think he's been accused of is killing people, though. Maybe he killed babies as an abortionist.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] What. What was always confusing is like, okay, oh, and also, all of his behavior was apparently denounced by his believing contemporaries as spiritual wifery. You know, but, but what? Somebody who knows the timeline of Joseph and Brigham will know that Joseph and Brigham were engaging in polygamous marriages at the same time. And John C. Bennett was Joseph's right hand man and in the First Presidency. So it's hard to imagine that somehow what Joseph and Brigham were doing and others was super righteous and holy.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] But, but what John C. Bennett was doing is super naughty and unacceptable and unknown to Joseph. So we've covered all that between Joseph and John C. Bennett in the Joseph Smith podcast series. You know, I think your conclusion was that Joseph probably knew about John C. Bennett's shenanigans, but when John C. Bennett became disloyal, he got thrown under the bus. And spiritual wifery was the way to distinguish between righteous, sanctioned polygamy, which was Joseph's, and unrighteous, unsanctioned polygamy, which was John C. Bennett's only because he was disloyal. But does Brigham Young, is he involved in this mix? And do you want to remind us of how much you think Brigham and Joseph were actually fully aware of what John C.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Bennett was doing and were okay with it because it was the same thing that Joseph and Brigham were doing. And I know I just asked a compound super long question, but I have infinite belief in your abilities to respond.

John Turner [00:43:46] Well, it is actually a good question. So this, so that sort of distinction between spiritual wifery and plural marriage, that's really hard for the church to sustain. Really, throughout the Nauvoo years, even after Joseph's death, there's a concern about people freelancing, using the doctrine to engage in bad behavior in the Mission field, so on and so forth.

John Turner [00:44:23] So I do think it's true that Joseph and Brigham on some level believe in that distinction, that there is a difference between proposing marriage to a prospective plural wife being sealed by someone in authority and then, you know, having sex with a number of different women who are one's wives. They see a distinction between that and John C. Bennett or anybody else saying, you know, it's not going to be sinful if we have sex. Joseph says, it's okay.

John Turner [00:45:11] I really like you. And so I think, yeah, there, there is a distinction that church leaders construct. I think the problem is that from the outside at least, the behavior looks. Looks too similar because the end result is men who had been in monogamous marriages in which their wives expected them to be loyal only to them ended up with multiple wives, multiple sexual partners. I don't know if that's a good answer to your question in terms of whether or not Brigham as well as Joseph were aware of John C. Bennett's shenanigans.

John Turner [00:46:04] My guess is probably yes, only because news, you know, rumors and gossip traveled so freely in Nauvoo. I. I like to think they probably were aware on some level. I think Joseph, you know, he'd gotten some bad reports about Bennett at the outset, which by his own admission, he chose to ignore.

John Turner [00:46:29] I think Joseph's, you know, he's. He does want, on some level, to condemn Bennett's behavior in May of 1842, but he also very much wants to keep Bennett within the fold because, you know, he doesn't. He doesn't want him outside the tent, spitting in. And so that's a. It's a clear danger.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Okay, so John C. Bennett, you know, is excommunicated. He starts, you know, publishing all sorts of things to cause Joseph and the church trouble in Nauvoo. Again. Go. Go watch the Joseph Smith episodes to. To learn more. Let's. Let's now look at this time period, as you described it, as a siege mentality from Brigham Young's perspective. And. And what did he do?

John Turner [00:47:30] So Brigham, he. He doesn't play a central role in the response to Bennett. I'm sure he's, you know, one of the things we talked about on the Joseph Smith podcast, but I think is also relevant here, is there.

John Turner [00:47:48] There's a substantial smear campaign against women like Martha Brotherton, and it's pretty ugly. So Joseph's brother, William Smith, refers to Martha Brotherton as a harlot, as a Jezebel, someone whom the dogs eat. One of Martha's Brothers in law.

John Turner [00:48:16] They probably didn't get along very well. And supported by a couple of her sisters who stayed in the church, signed an affidavit testifying that she had lain on top of a young man while he was in bed. I won't go through the laundry list, but there's a pretty substantial smear campaign against the brothertons.

John Turner [00:48:42] I don't know whether or not they were angels, but this was a family that church leaders had praised publicly as late as February of 1842. So to turn around and claim that these people are all malcontents or sexually immoral, that really strains, Strains belief.

John Turner [00:49:09] So like I said, I don't think Brigham, you know, he didn't play a central role in these efforts. He did. He was one of many church leaders who undertook really what essentially were damage control missions in the second half of 1842 in which they traveled and defended Joseph against Bennett's accusations.

Brigham Young Embraces Plural Marriage

John Dehlin [00:49:41] I have a quick question, John Turner. Sometimes I get the impression that there was just sexual experimentation going on amongst the saints casually in Nauvoo. I mean, we already talked about in the Joseph Smith series that there were rumors of polygamy or some sort of sexual impropriety in the early Kirtland years, because the original Book of Commandments, Doctrine and Covenants is already explicitly denouncing polygamy in response to, I believe it says rumors.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] So, you know, at some point when there's 10, 12 years of smoke and then all these reports, including you said Brigham Young is having to answer to allegations of sexual improprieties in the UK while he's there. Like, what do you think it's possible that, that, and I think you've addressed this, that other religious communities at the time experienced this as well. But is it possible that there was just sexual liberation going on in Nauvoo amongst the saints? Amongst the believing saints?

John Turner [00:50:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] I mean, is that possible or likely in your evaluation?

John Turner [00:51:02] I don't think any sanctioned. I don't think there's any sanctioned polygamy or extramarital activity prior to Nauvoo. Unless, however, Joseph might have explained things to Fanny Algeria. I think something, something there in terms of sanctioned sex is definitely possible. Otherwise, I, I don't think so in the sense that this and I, I this, those sort of accusations and rumors were pretty standard. So for instance, we talked a bit about revival meetings near Palmyra or that Brigham would have attended when he was young. It was really common for other Americans to complain about the rampant orgies at Methodist revivals. So do you think there were rampant orgies at Methodist revivals? Probably not. Did some people have sex on the outer perimeter of camp meetings? Probably, but I just. I don't think there's evidence for church leaders teaching either plural marriage or other forms of, you know, alternative sexual arrangements prior to the early 1840s.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] Okay. Sorry, is that. I don't know. It's possible. Is that what that is?

John Turner [00:52:40] Yeah. I'm saying I don't think so, but you're right. It's ironic. There's been all of this smoke in terms of rumors for years, and then Joseph lights a fire himself in the early 1840s.

John Dehlin [00:52:59] I mean, Brigham's doing it, John C. Bennett's doing it, Joseph's doing it, Heber's doing it. How could. How could that not just be people getting freaky in Nauvoo? I just think it's pretty clear they are, and it's not in. The Brothertons could have been involved.

John Turner [00:53:17] What do you mean by that?

John Dehlin [00:53:19] I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

John Turner [00:53:23] Yeah, I mean, I think this is. This is the way I would speculate. So who does Joseph approach at the outset when he becomes convinced about polygamy or wants to pursue polygamy? He approaches the Beaman family, whom he's known for a very long time, probably at least 15 years. He then approaches the Huntington family, and he's known that family for quite a few years.

John Turner [00:54:00] And so Brigham, he sees the Brothertons in the same light. The problem is. Well, it maybe isn't the only problem, but he's really only known the Brothertons for maybe a year and a half. And then he next approaches Lucy Decker Seely, and he's known the Decker family for a long time.

John Turner [00:54:26] I think Joseph and Brigham, they perceived that these families who had been with the church through thick and thin, they were the ones to approach for this, I would say, new challenge, this new departure. I think that's. And they weren't wrong in that appraisal. That's one reason why so many women say yes to Joseph's proposals of plural marriage. And the same is true for Brigham. He just completely misjudges his first, you know, his first try.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] Okay, so how. What's Brigham's perspective in the aftermath of the John C. Betta scandal?

John Turner [00:55:26] Yeah. So still just going ahead. So, you know, he spends the second half of 1842 helping with some of that damage control. I think he also plays. He definitely plays a role in bringing Orson Pratt back into the fold. Brigham, I Think he. I don't know if he's personally fond of Orson, but as someone who is a fellow member of the quorum, the 12, he's. He seems eager to repair that breach. Then, as we move into 1843, Brigham plays a significant role in finally introducing Hyrum Smith to plural marriage. And he's continuing to expand his own family. I'd say those are the main storylines. I also think Brigham is worried, and this could be my speculation because I can't absolutely prove it. I think he's worried that Joseph Smith could have designs on some of the women in his own family.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] Do you want to talk about that dream?

John Turner [00:56:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Brigham's dream. Brigham's nightmare.

John Turner [00:57:02] So one of the great things about Brigham Young is he didn't like to keep his dreams to himself. He would write. Write about his dreams in his journals. Later in Utah, he would stride into the church historian's office, and he would, you know, regale people there with his crazy dreams from the night before.

John Turner [00:57:26] So he provides us with some good source material. In early 1843, he writes the following dream in his diary, and I'll read a bit from it. Had a dream. Thought I was traveling to the east with my wife in a carriage covered it stormed. I let the curtains down, traveled safe along though muddy. Then we turned to come back.

John Turner [00:57:54] Brother Joseph sat on the backseat with my wife. He whispered to her, said it was right if she was a mind to. Nothing more passed between them as I drove along the carriage drawed out to be so long I could not see my wife. Brother Joseph was on the seat with me. I looked back to see my wife but could not.

John Turner [00:58:25] Brother Joseph said we must go and get the carriage or part of it that had Marianne in it. We got the carriage but saw nothing of Marianne, for she was inside and the carriage closed in with curtain and they was black. We was pulling it over a bridge, the last I remember. So it's a pretty cryptic dream, but I think it's interesting. He has a dream in which Joseph and Marianne are on the backseat of a carriage. Joseph's whispering to Marianne, saying it's right if she was a mind to. And then Brigham specifies nothing more passed between them.

John Turner [00:59:08] So the end of the dream seems to refer to Marianne's possible death, but I think the beginning, you know, it could be a cryptic sort of fear of Joseph proposing marriage to her.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] Yeah. And we know that Joseph at some point made Heber feel like he wanted Heber's wife. Is that right? So Joseph was doing this weird thing where he was. Oh, and William Law and others.

John Turner [00:59:38] Sarah Pratt.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] Right. Yeah. Joseph did have designs on some of his most loyal followers wives or at least communicated that well and.

John Turner [00:59:49] Right. So you know, I think the Heber Kimball instance, that's not crystal clear, but we do know that Smith marries Mirinda Hyde, wife of apostle Orson Hyde. Orson Pratt alleges that Joseph proposed to his wife. So I don't know, I may or may not be interpreting the dream correctly, but if you're Brigham Young, why wouldn't you worry about that?

John Turner [01:00:22] And to me that I find that fascinating because Brigham Young, he is a loyal foot soldier and he would never express, would never have expressed a concern like that publicly. But Brigham also, he's not like Heber C. Kimball. You know, Kimball offers his 14 year old daughter Helen in marriage to Smith out of his great desire to be connected with the Prophet.

John Turner [01:00:59] You know, young moved a 13 year old daughter violate to Boston during these years. So you know, Young, for whatever reason, he didn't pursue those sorts of, you know, dynastic connections to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] It just sounds so weird, but you know, maybe that's presentism. John Turner.

John Turner [01:01:29] Oh, no, it's weird. It was, it was weird in eight in the early 1840s, just as weird then.

Augusta Adams and Polygamous Courtship

John Dehlin [01:01:40] So should we talk about Augusta Adams?

John Turner [01:01:43] Sure. So I have to say I don't know if we can, we can do all of her story today, but she is, you know, she's such an interesting.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] Got an hour left.

John Turner [01:01:56] But only an hour though, that's that's the thing. So Augusta is a very different situation. So she is a well to do married woman in Boston. She's married to a man named Henry Cobb. So she's really Mrs. Cobb at this point.

John Turner [01:02:28] Augusta had been baptized back in 1832. Her husband never joined the church. Some of some other people in the family did. But in 1843, September of 1843, she leaves Boston in the company of Brigham Young and she leaves behind her husband, most of her children.

John Turner [01:03:04] She takes one daughter with her and also an infant son. It's actually then there's a really sad bit in the story. The infant died in early October in Cincinnati and Augusta has her baby put in a tin coffin and they take him to be buried in Nauvoo.

John Turner [01:03:39] And the name, the recorded death by a Nauvoo official is Brigham Y. Cobb. So she names this infant after Brigham Young. So why does she leave Boston in the company of Brigham Young? In all likelihood, that summer Brigham taught her the doctrine of plural marriage.

John Turner [01:04:09] And so she goes with him to become Brigham's plural wife. And if you think about it, this is an instance in which Joseph's theology of marriage and exaltation would give her a really strong incentive. You know, she's married to someone who has refused to join the church, so she's never going to be sealed for eternity to Henry Cobb.

John Turner [01:04:45] And she essentially says that at the same time, it's not just theology. You know, there was a love that sprung up rapidly between them. Young, by the way, is. Or Brigham is pretty clear that they did not have sex before their sealing, but did afterwards. He said, a few years later, Sister Cobb was given me by revelation, but I never did anything till long after she was given, until I got the ceremonies and all made right.

John Turner [01:05:30] So then once they. Once they get to Nauvoo, Joseph sealed them to each other for time and all eternity. Brigham was sealed in marriage to another woman on the same day. So by this point, he has three plural wives.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] Okay. And were you gonna. I mean, did you. Did you want to mention her celestial ambitions?

John Turner [01:06:14] Sure. So, yeah. So, Augusta.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] Celestial ambitions? Yeah.

John Turner [01:06:19] Yeah, Augusta. You know, there's all sorts of controversy and trouble related to this marriage. For one thing, as you can imagine, Augusta's first husband, Henry, was not very pleased about this development. You know, his wife has just left with another man and taken a daughter with her. And so he sues for divorce twice.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Polyandry. Right. This is polyandry against the will of the husband.

John Turner [01:06:56] Correct. I mean, so I think when he sues for divorce, the grounds. You know, the ground grounds are adultery. You know, she's committing adultery with Brigham Young, and he's successful. He actually. He's very persistent. He sues for divorce twice, which is not an easy thing to pull off in the 1840s.

John Turner [01:07:21] Second time, it's successful. Augusta, however. And there's tons of letters back and forth between Augusta and Brigham in later years. So to make this a little bit brief, she's not pleased with her position in the Young family. I think, you know, she knows that Brigham Young is married, but she doesn't expect to be one plural wife among many. You know, she expects sort of to be a queen, and instead he's got a really large family.

John Turner [01:08:04] And she later says that this isn't what she would have wanted. And, you know, if a woman's glory is connected to that of her husband, she would have rather have aimed even higher. You know, she might have been interested in Joseph. And she accuses Brigham of preventing her from meeting Joseph until the day of their sealing because she suggests Brigham feared that if she had an encounter with Joseph, he would have proposed marriage to her and she would have gone for him instead. So she basically thinks that she hasn't gotten the deal she wanted out of polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] So weird. This whole thing is just super weird. And I'm sad for the. I'm sad for the husband. Right. Like, what's God thinking? How is this. How is God okay with just the husband being jilted? Basically?

John Turner [01:09:14] Yeah. Well, so, Augusta, I'm just gonna. I have to finish the Augusta story a little bit. I can't help it.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Yeah,

John Turner [01:09:25] she. You know, when she's saying that, you know, I would have rather been married to Joseph, she actually sort of extends the logic. And so by 1846, she says, I am resolved to be the Lord's holy for time and eternity. And so she asked Brigham to have her sealed to Jesus Christ instead of him as a husband. And then she said, all right, well, if you won't do that, at least seal me to Joseph.

John Turner [01:10:07] And, you know, some of what she says in. In these letters, it's just remarkable. She says, I should have seen Brother Joseph the first thing, but instead of that, you exacted a promise of me that I would not see him alone, saying, he would certainly overcome me.

John Turner [01:10:27] And apparently Augusta had said, you know, don't worry about it, Brigham. You know, I'm not that easy to overcome. And Brigham's response was, you then said, I had never had to deal with a prophet of the Lord. So, yeah, so this is pretty. It's pretty crazy stuff. And Triggum, in the end, you know, the end of the story is he consents to seal her to Joseph for eternity, and she remains his earthly wife and responsibility, but she sort of moved up.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] And, you know, we can look at this as just kind of silliness or weirdness, but this was my probably biggest takeaway from my 41 episodes with you about Joseph Smith. The. The big thing that I didn't realize before reading your book, John Turner, was how important promises of exaltation, promises of being with God, promises of celestial status, promises of endowments from on high, promises of being sealed up and eventually of living with Jesus and God in the afterlife were among the most powerful motivators of any motivators in the people involved in this time period.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] And while we can maybe even be tempted to kind of make fun of or think that Augusta Adams is silly, she's just operating on the same fuel that the. That the Zion's camp, you know, participants were. They're all wanting endowments and blessings on, from on a high to be sealed up to live with God and Jesus someday. Am I wrong?

John Turner [01:12:34] So I don't think you're wrong. So I think. Well, couple of thoughts. So those sorts of promises, they are effective when trying to persuade people to do things they wouldn't otherwise be willing to contemplate. So I don't know if this is a good analogy or not, but if you look at the wartime rhetoric of religious leaders and the connection between death in battle and martyrdom and the attainment of salvation or the presence of God, that's, that's a powerful promise that can motivate someone to do something really difficult and undertake great risk. And I think it's a similar, similar dynamic here.

John Turner [01:13:32] And I think, you know, we don't always know exactly how Joseph or Brigham explained these teachings to women. We have some of their later recollections. But, you know, Martha Brotherton's is, is pretty clear. If you will accept of me, I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom.

John Turner [01:13:54] If you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come. And you know, these men know that on the face of it, someone like Martha Brotherton does not want to become a plural wife, right? I mean, that's never been on her radar screen. She's just emigrated with her family from England. She's hoping probably to get married in the next several years. She's not hoping to become the plural wife of a 40 year old man, probably, probably not hoping to become the monogamous wife of a 40 year old man either. But, you know, that would at least be more conceivable.

John Turner [01:14:40] So for Augusta Adams, there is the theological logic, but I also think for her this just didn't line up with her expectations in the sense of Brigham has a large family. She, like some of his other wives, complained that she doesn't get enough attention.

John Turner [01:15:09] Money, clothing. And I don't know if, I don't know if that sort of drives the theological point or if it's the, if it's, you know, if that's just there anyway. I mean, I, I would, I'm certainly not going to dismiss her recollection. I mean, it's very specific.

John Turner [01:15:38] She says to Brigham, you didn't want me to see Joseph because I would be overcome by him. You know, essentially you might have lost me to him. And I'm not saying people don't embellish or make up crazy things, but I don't, I don't see any reason not to not to give credibility to her account.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Yeah. And again, when people have problems with Joseph Smith's polygamy and early Mormon polygamy, usually the more thoughtful people that I know, they're not as concerned about what consenting adults might do. They're concerned about the power differential, and specifically of men who claim to speak to God, to speak with God and Jesus, to be special witnesses of God, or Jesus claiming that God and Jesus are either telling them or commanding them, or even forcing them by threat of an angel with the sword, that they have to practice polygamy, and that if the people will practice polygamy, them and all their family for generations will be saved in the celestial kingdom for the hereafter. It feels like a power play, wielding of incredibly high amounts of power and leverage with both a carrot and a sword, a celestial carrot and a celestial sword.

John Turner [01:17:16] I think that's fair. Now, it's certainly true that Joseph and Brigham and others could have sincerely believed in this doctrine. Whether or not they sincerely believed in it, that does not. In any way. It doesn't mitigate that power dynamic. You know, it doesn't. Doesn't excuse it so. Absolutely. And I think the theological incentives were powerful. I think also just the mere fact that.

John Turner [01:17:56] And it didn't work in the Martha Brotherton case. But, you know, in some of these instances, there's a family that has this close bond to Joseph Smith. Tremendous. That, you know, then there's a tremendous pressure on the young woman in question to give her assent. And I trust that in a good number of instances, women would have sought and received a divine confirmation.

John Turner [01:18:31] Again, that doesn't mean that these power dynamics were not real and that that was a terrible, terribly hard and fraught situation for women and their families to be in.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] Yeah. Julia asked me to make sure and mention to you Joseph Smith's polyandry. Obviously, you could argue that Augusta Adams was one example. I've generally just thought of Joseph Smith as being the polyandrous one, meaning marrying women who already married other men. We know that Joseph Smith married up to 12 women, I believe, who already married other men. At the time, he was polygamous, polygamously sealed to them. But other than Augusta Adams, was Brigham Young engaging in additional polyandry?

Brigham Young's First Successful Polygamous Marriage

John Turner [01:19:31] Yeah. So his first successful polygamous proposal was to Lucy Decker Seeley, who was married to a husband who was still living in Nauvoo. So.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] So these are two. These are two.

John Turner [01:19:46] Those are two. And there are more going forward.

John Dehlin [01:19:52] Was this during the period where Joseph. Because there's this Period where Joseph seemed to only be marrying women married other men. It's almost like Joseph said, hey, I mean, it could be seen as a way to hide it, because if the woman gets pregnant, it could always be attributed to the husband. But maybe it's also a way to have a cover so that the woman has someone taking care of her so that the sex can happen, but that, you know, it can always be understood if the husband plays along, that, you know, the husband always can cover for the Polyandra sex that Joseph and Brigham were engaged in. Is that maybe what was going on here? Because that just seems like too much of a coincidence, the Brigham's doing what Joseph was doing, so.

John Turner [01:20:44] Well, that's a. That's a great question. There's not an easy answer. So, first of all, yes, for a stretch of time, Joseph's plural wives are, I think, exclusively married or widowed women. So but Brigham, I would say he's a little bit more all over the place. So first attempted plural wife is a single young woman from England. Second plural wife is already married. Third plural wife is already married. Fourth plural wife, I guess that's later on, is a young single woman by the time he's sealed to Augusta Adams, you know, Joseph has.

John Turner [01:21:34] Is primarily marrying single women by that point. I guess one thing I'd say is, yeah, I think there is something to that in the sense of if a man is married to an already married woman and she just stays with her pre existing life, there's less of a firestorm, potentially.

John Turner [01:21:57] But Brigham kind of just blows through that model with Augusta because he basically runs off with a married woman from Boston, and that is the best way to attract unwanted attention, I think.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] Yeah.

John Turner [01:22:14] So, you know, it's a little akin to Parley Pratt and Eleanor. I forget her first married name, who leaves her husband on the west coast, and then the husband eventually tracks down Parley Pratt and murders him shortly before the Mountain Meadows massacre. So Henry at least kept it in court, but, you know, there's obviously enormous potential for scandal.

John Dehlin [01:22:46] Yeah. And. And again, Augusta was pregnant, Right.

John Turner [01:22:50] She.

John Dehlin [01:22:51] She lost the baby, Right?

John Turner [01:22:52] Yeah, she wasn't pregnant, but she brought an infant with her that was hers, right? That was hers and Henry's.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] Okay, so. Yeah, her baby with Henry had what? Just died. She brought it. They buried it.

John Turner [01:23:05] Yeah, it died. It died on route to Nauvoo.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Yeah. Anyway. All right, so is that all about Brigham Young's polyhedrous wives?

John Turner [01:23:15] Well, for now.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] Okay. Okay.

John Turner [01:23:19] As I said in the Joseph Smith podcast, it always gets More wild. So both.

John Dehlin [01:23:24] Okay, so really quickly, Heber and Hyrum's polygamy. Do we want to say anything about that as it relates to Brigham?

John Turner [01:23:33] Well, I do think it's. It's worth mentioning Hiram, because, at least according to Brigham's recollection, Brigham plays a key role in bringing Hyrum into the polygamous fold. This is in May of 1843. It's at a point at which Joseph finally wants to broach the subject with both his brother Hyrum and his wife Emma, both of whom he had kept in the dark.

John Turner [01:24:10] And one catalyst seems to be Hiram is continuing to publicly denounce polygamy. He says at a May 1843 meeting, if an angel from heaven could come and preach such doctrine, you would be sure to see his cloven foot.

John Turner [01:24:36] So he also, per William Clayton's journal, Hyrum does seem to be a pretty staunch polygamy opponent as of May 1843, however, if an angel could not convince Hiram, Brigham Young could do the job. And so Brigham then goes and, you know, he ends up having a conversation with Hyrum.

John Turner [01:25:07] And Hyrum presses him on whether Joseph had had a revelation on marriage, and Brigham teaches the doctrine to him. And within days, Hyrum is sealed to his living wife and his first deceased wife and then embraces the doctrine fully over the course of the year. So Brigham was one of those men who became effective, an effective messenger for the doctrine of plural marriage.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] And were Brigham and Hyrum close? Were they nemeses? Were they indifferent to each other?

John Turner [01:26:01] I don't think they were super close. The way I read that doesn't seem like two men who are incredibly tight with each other.

John Dehlin [01:26:13] Okay, and Heber. What about Heber as a polygamist? I mean, Heber was Brigham's buddy, right?

John Turner [01:26:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] I want to call them bosom buddies. That doesn't feel right in this.

John Turner [01:26:28] Yeah. So I think. Yeah, I'd love to know if they talked about it with each other. You know, we don't know, because Heber

John Dehlin [01:26:39] out Brigham to Brigham in the. In the wives count by the end of his life, Right?

John Turner [01:26:44] I'm pretty sure that's right. Only by a few, though. So these are both, you know, prolific polygamists. No, Heber. I forget the exact date. He also moves ahead with polygamy very early. He's among the apostles who doesn't take as long to put this into practice. And I think, yeah, they do have a very. They do have an intimate relationship. Relationship. You know, they're. They're still quite close while they're on the mission field. They're both polygamy confidants in Nauvoo. I mean, one of the things I'd say about Nauvoo, though, it is so tricky because a lot of people know bits and pieces of things. So, you know, William Clayton knows a lot about Joseph's polygamy, but he doesn't know everything. And I think the same is probably true of Brigham and Heber. So there's just these interlocking layers of secrecy.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Interesting. Obviously, the people nowadays who are inclined, the faithful Mormons who are inclined to not believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy want to put it at the feet of people like Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball. And we're not going to re litigate that in this podcast series, but I just wanted to highlight that in that modern movement where Brigham and Heber were buddies before they joined the church, and then Brigham brings Heber into the First Presidency after Joseph dies. If I'm remembering right, there are some people that suspect them as, as. As being the true originators of polygamy, maybe along with John C. Bennett. I don't know.

John Turner [01:28:45] Yeah. So I'll just say without rehashing all of it, I think there's very, very conclusive evidence for Joseph introducing the doctrine in Nauvoo. I think there are enough credible sources, both contemporary and retrospective, for. For me to feel confident in that.

John Turner [01:29:09] I think also one thing I'd say about this doesn't directly respond to your observation. This is something that I do find. It's an interesting moment in Brigham Young's life. You know, this is someone who, in the early 1830s, took two years to consider whether to get baptized into the Church of Christ after first encountering the Book of Mormon. This is a deliberate man and doesn't take him quite so long to get on board with plural marriage. And he acts in ways that are much more impulsive. You know, I think the Brotherton proposal is a good example of that.

John Turner [01:30:02] Leaving Boston with a married woman and her children is another good example of that. I don't know if we want to call this greater self confidence, just a reflection of his faith. In Joseph Smith, I think you can see renewed caution at later periods of Brigham's life. But I talk a lot about Joseph's recklessness and impulsivity, and it seems that some of it rubs off on Brigham Young during these years.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] Okay, so it seems like now in the Nauvoo timeline, in the wake of the John C. Bennett stuff. And in the wake of more and the polygamy circle widening and widening, and we think that Hyrum's against it, but then he becomes for polygamy. Eventually Emma finds out. And then Emma and Hyrum and Joseph have that confrontation that leads to the production of DNC132. We know that DNC132 is likely presented to what, the Nauvoo High Council or the Nauvoo City Council. Is that right?

John Turner [01:31:28] In August, I think, of 1843.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] And is Brigham Young there?

John Turner [01:31:34] That's a great question.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] I'm not sure before. I don't even know that it matters because we know he was in on it. But that's when the cat really starts getting out of the bag. Is there anything you want to talk about? I mean, Brigham ends up famously hating Emma. Is. Is that Hiram, Joseph, emma confrontation around 132 and emma eventually burning the revelation. Is that, you know, the genesis of Brigham Young's hatred towards Emma? Did it precede it or was this stuff after? What do you want to say about Brigham and Emma's enmity?

John Turner [01:32:13] Oh, so that's a. That's a fun question. So one comment on the earlier part of your question. One thing that Joseph does in 1843, which is a new, new departure, really, is he introduces plural marriage to people who are not as likely to accept it. So, like when the apostles come back from England, like, these are sort of his henchmen, right? Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, Willard Richards, John Taylor, George A. Smith to a man, they accept this teaching.

Polygamy Spreads Among Church Leadership

John Turner [01:32:57] Joseph has held off from introducing it to Hiram, to Emma, to the laws, to number, to Sidney Rigdon, to other church leaders. So he's been really careful. Joseph is a lot less careful with the dissemination of this toward the end of his life. And it's one thing that contributes to the surge in dissent and pressure on Joseph by 1844. But to your question, I don't think Brigham. There's no sense to me that Brigham and Emma were ever sociable and particularly friendly with each other. I think Emma in terms of the enmity.

John Turner [01:33:48] Emma never accepts plural marriage. She perhaps tolerates elements of it for some stretch of time. She definitely sees Brigham and the twelve as men who are strongly supportive of something that has caused her pain and anguish. So I think that's one part of the enmity.

John Turner [01:34:18] Then also after Joseph's death, it's very clear that Emma does not accept the authority of the 12. So that's a major source of the enmity. And then thirdly, there's a pretty bitter fight over property and money in terms of what was really Joseph's personal property and now goes to Emma and what was the church's. So those three create an enormous amount of enmity in terms of Brigham publicly expressing loathing for Emma. That becomes far more pronounced after the early 1860s when she takes a, you know, somewhat prominent role in the reorganized organization. So the reorganized Church, Brigham definitely sees that as a threat. And so that ramps up the Emma hostility.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] Okay, so Emma flirts with polygamy and then backs away from it. The revelation gets destroyed, and we start seeing some disaffection from really important leaders. I think most significantly, William Law and Jane Law. Joseph Smith is rumored to be propositioning the wives. Is it both of Foster and William Law?

John Turner [01:35:54] Correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Yeah. And so there starts to be a gathering group of men and women who are trying to take Joseph down or at least publicly claim that Joseph's a fallen prophet. And that leads to the creation of the Naboo Expositor, attempting to expose Joseph Smith as a polygamist and as a fallen prophet. What do you want to say about Brigham Young's actions in the wake of all that, including Joseph Smith's command of the destruction of the printing press?

John Turner [01:36:34] So Brigham, first of all, he is stalwart during the last year of Joseph's life. I would say that instead of really actively trying to help Joseph put out sort of the fires of dissent, Brigham is number one. He's still undertaking some missionary marriage trips. So he's away for Nauvoo for quite a bit of time in 1843, as we narrated in connection with Augusta Adams, Brigham, and I think this is interesting in terms of whether or not Joseph abandoned polygamy toward the end of his life. Brigham takes a third or fourth plural wife in March of 1844. So he's still expanding his family.

John Turner [01:37:37] Then Brigham is again in the mission field, electioneering for Joseph's presidential campaign in May and June and early July of 1844. So he's away from Nauvoo when things go from, say, growing problem to full blown crisis. So he's not present for the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, for Joseph's declaration of martial law, for Joseph's arrest or any of those events.

John Turner [01:38:25] Instead, he's in the east, you know, getting rumor by newspaper of everything that might have happened to Joseph Smith. He in July. So a couple of weeks after the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, he writes in his journal that he started for Boston having heard of Joseph and Hyrum's death. He's with Wilford Woodruff, and he gets confirmation of their death, I think, in a more credible newspaper report.

John Turner [01:39:15] And I think Brigham immediately knows that he's going to have a lot of conflict and heavy burdens in the months to come. Woodruff just bathes his pillow in tears when he. He hears the news. Brigham later comments that although his head felt distressed, so distressed he thought it would crack, he did not cry.

John Turner [01:39:51] He's someone who did like to keep some of his emotions bottled up, but I think as soon as. As soon as they got that news, they knew they had to come back to Nauvoo and they knew there was going to be chaos and conflict ahead.

John Dehlin [01:40:10] So. Yeah. So Brigham Young. I mean, clearly, if there was one defining feature of Brigham Young religiously, it was his love and devotion to Joseph Smith.

John Turner [01:40:23] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:40:24] So he must have taken Joseph's death incredibly hard.

John Turner [01:40:29] I think he did. And I also think.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] But he wasn't in Carthage to defend Joseph. He wasn't in the jail to protect Joseph.

John Turner [01:40:39] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:40:40] Why wasn't he there at his side at the end?

John Turner [01:40:44] Well, Joseph had sent him out.

John Dehlin [01:40:46] Yeah.

John Turner [01:40:47] On this quixotic campaign for the presidency.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] Yeah. Things could have been different if Brigham maybe hadn't been sent away. I don't know. Maybe not.

John Turner [01:40:58] Well, who knows? I mean, John Taylor and Willard Richards, they're there. And that certain. Certainly doesn't avert tragedy. Like I've said. I don't think, on the one hand, Brigham was in Joseph's inner circle very much. He's introduced to plural marriage. He's one of the first group of men who are initiated into what becomes known as the endowment. He receives the second anointing.

John Turner [01:41:31] He's somebody that Joseph rarely has conflict with, you know, trusts to a very large extent. I don't get the sense from Brigham's journals that the two men spend a lot of time socializing together in Nauvoo. I don't think they are intimate, really intimate in that sense. I don't think they are. I don't think they are bosom buddies.

John Turner [01:42:02] I do think, of course, Brigham has a tremendous affection for Joseph, but I would say even more than that, there's just. Just an intense loyalty. You know, he's going to do. He's going to do what Joseph commands. He's going to go where Joseph sent him.

John Turner [01:42:24] I think he's also clear as soon as he gets confirmation of Joseph's death. I think he is clear that he and the Quorum of the twelve. But especially he is going to take charge of the church and it's going to be a bruising fight and he's not going to give an inch.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] So that, that, I guess that kind of sets us up for, for next week does. Just really quickly, before we talk about the succession, Brigham can't be a big fan of the, of the Fosters or, or the laws or the Higbys. If ever there were a time for blood atonement, it would have been in. In fall of 1844, Nauvoo. We don't have any indication that Brigham Young secretly tried to extol justice on Joseph's adversaries. Like before, we talk about in the succession crisis doesn't happen. What year do Sidney and Brigham square off? It's like a year or two later, right?

John Turner [01:43:44] Nope, they get right to it.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] Okay, so. Okay, go ahead.

John Turner [01:43:50] No, I was gonna say so. Joseph is killed on June 27th of 1844. Young is still with several of the other apostles in Boston in mid July, but everyone is back in Nauvoo in early August to stake their claim to lead the church going forward. And I will also just add that Brigham seems pretty clear about the path ahead. So he's at a meeting with the, with Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde in Boston, and he tells them that God prepared all things, gave keys to men on the earth, and, or, excuse me, he, Joseph, prepared all things, gave keys to men on the earth, and said, I may soon be taken from you. So, you know, essentially we are the men who have the keys in Joseph's absence, and we are prepared.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] Yeah. And we're going to talk about other people that sort of had claims or that made claims for the succession after Joseph Smith's death. How? Let's just say somehow we were able to take a poll of everyone the day before Joseph's death and you were to ask everybody, hey, Joseph's in prison, he could die. Let's take a vote. All members of the church, who is the designated successor? Do you think that there would have been a clear answer? And if so, what would the pie chart breakdown be of what the memberships expectation was? Or was it just that Joseph will never die and that Jesus will be coming soon and so there's no need to ever even think about a successor because they were all Latter Day Saints and Joseph was ushering in the millennium.

John Dehlin [01:46:11] I even have it that Brigham Young gave patriarchal blessings or blessings promising people that they would live to witnesses Jesus's second coming. So clearly, that was what everyone thought. What's going on? So I know I've asked you another really compound question.

John Turner [01:46:26] No, I love it. I love the idea of a May 1844 succession survey in Nauvoo. So using my powers as a retrospective creator of public opinion surveys, I think it would have been Hiram.

John Dehlin [01:46:49] Whoa, you're blowing my mind.

John Turner [01:46:52] In a landslide, I think Hiram in a landslide.

John Dehlin [01:46:56] Oh, okay. Why? Why?

John Turner [01:46:59] So he's a member of the First Presidency

John Dehlin [01:47:04] who didn't apostatize.

John Turner [01:47:05] He didn't apostatize and clearly also just had a lot of clout with church membership. You know, when he spoke, people listened. And he'd clearly gotten on board with plural marriage. He also had the Smith name, but wasn't problematic in the way that Joseph's brother William, one of the 12, was. So I think Hyrum would have been in a strong position to make a claim for leadership in a way that Sidney Rigdon wasn't. Now, this is, you know, speculative. We don't. We don't have that sort of survey. You know, I think in terms of Rigdon. Rig. Well, we're going to get into this more next week, but I think other options would have been distant behind Hiram. But of course, Hiram is murdered alongside Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Yeah. Okay. So I guess if there was a second candidate. It sounds like there really just wasn't. If it was going to be Hiram overwhelmingly, then Brigham's succession just wasn't really on people's mind.

John Turner [01:48:28] I don't think so. So, yeah, I mean, I do think the. The 12 had risen in prominence and preeminence in Nauvoo. There's all that back and forth in the 1830s about the 12 feeling disrespected and Joseph making it clear they only have authority outside of Zion, not in ZION. By the 1840s, it's clear once they get back from England, Joseph's giving them more authority. But, you know, I think inherent in your question is the fact that Joseph isn't thinking about succession. I. I don't think he's. He knows that circumstances are dangerous, but he's not expecting to be killed. He doesn't feel any need to put a plan into place. And, you know, retrospectively, people purport a number of succession ideas to Joseph, but this is not any. This is not top of the, Top of the list for him during his life.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] Yeah. All right, John Turner. Well, any final wrap up points you want to make from today's episode? And. Yeah, what preview do you want to give us for next time. We'll give you the last words before I ask for support again.

Preview of the Succession Crisis and Closing Remarks

John Turner [01:50:06] So preview for next time is we're talking about succession. I think sometimes when people think about succession, they're thinking August of 1844. So luckily for you, we're thinking about three years plus of succession from August of 1844 until December of 1847. Because it takes a long time for Brigham Young to be in a position to become church president.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] Okay. So it's going to take a while. It's going to take some years for that success succession situation to to play itself out.

John Turner [01:50:49] It's going to take some years and some bad language.

John Dehlin [01:50:53] Okay. All right. John Turner. Well, the book is Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet. People are excited that we're, you know, we've got the band back together, so to speak. Please buy this book by its companion, Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. While you're at it. Go ahead and get the audiobook for no Man Knows My History, narrated by yours truly. Let's make these three books the top in the top five Mormon related books sold in the world.

John Dehlin [01:51:28] Thanks to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories for to support this project. If you want to see this project continue. I think we've got about $500 donated to this project so far. The Brigham Young Project that covers about part of the cost of one episode. If you want to see this go all the way.

John Dehlin [01:51:49] We especially passed the 10 episodes. We promised we would love your support@donorbox.org BrighamYoung thanks to Julie and Brooklyn for all they do to make this possible. Thanks to John Turner. Thanks to our viewers and listeners. Please leave comments on YouTube. We love that engagement. If you think we got something wrong, if you've got questions, if you've got things you want to add, we love your feedback on YouTube.

John Dehlin [01:52:16] You can also email us please like and subscribe this episode, the Brigham Young Podcast can also be consumed as its own podcast on Spotify. It's also got its own playlist on YouTube under the Mormon Stories podcast feed. And we'll be doing at least 10 or more episodes in the coming weeks and months. So thanks again, John Turner. Excited for next time.

John Turner [01:52:41] I can't wait. Yeah, no, it's going to be fun. And I'm never pleased when we get to the point of Joseph Smith's death. It's a, you know, it's a terrible story. But in terms of Brigham Young, now that he's the man of the moment. Right. I think we have a lot of new material to talk about in the weeks ahead. I'm really excited and can't wait for next time.

John Dehlin [01:53:11] Yeah, I've said this before. One of my favorite Mormons is Brian Buchanan, and he says those who are fixated on Joseph Smith era Mormonism and Mormon history and don't spend time in the mid to late 19th century of Mormon history are really missing out. So do you agree? Do you agree?

John Turner [01:53:35] I mean, I never disagree with Brian Buchanan and I, I don't disagree in this case because you don't really have to, you don't have to argue. Joseph or Brigham. Right. They both left huge stamps on the church.

John Dehlin [01:53:55] I think that one, it's like Jefferson or Lincoln. Jefferson or Lincoln.

John Turner [01:53:59] But Brigham Young, he's at it for another 33 years after this episode. So, yes, we are going at warp speed this time, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of conflict, there's a lot of doctrine, there's a lot of humor in next week's episode. So it'll be, it'll be wild.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] Hang on to your beards, hang on to your wives. You ain't seen nothing yet.

John Turner [01:54:27] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:54:27] All right, thanks, John Turner. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Brigham Young Podcast and on Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody.

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