Introduction to Steven Pynakker and the Series

Part 1 of 5 · Ep. 1570

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 23, 2022, and we have an epic series today and tomorrow in our Mormon Stories podcast studios here in Holiday, Utah. We have invited Steven Pinecker onto Mormon Stories.

Guest 2 [00:00:21] Hey, Steven.

Steven Pynakker [00:00:22] Hey. Hey, everyone. Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Steven is number one, just a really lovely, smart, caring human and a friend. So I'm going to start there. But there's more. I would say he is definitely in the 99th percentile in the world in terms of knowledge of Mormon history. He knows more than me about Mormon history for sure. No question about that. And he is the host of a new podcast and YouTube channel called Mormon Book Reviews, which can be found on YouTube again and@mormonbookreviews.com and he's just a super nice guy. He currently identifies as a Christian, but his story is really, really powerful. And again, so is his knowledge of Mormon history. So here's how it's going to go. We're going to spend two days with Steven Pinecre and we're going to do at least four or five separate episodes. Part one is going to be Steven's story being raised as a Christian and how he got interested in Mormonism and then how he lost his faith in Christianity and became someone who identified as an atheist or an agnostic. That's going to take us up to just a couple of years ago, and that's going to be part one of his story. Then we're going to pause and we're going to do at least three episodes dealing with his subject matter expertise. So we're going to talk about his views on how the Book of Mormon came to be. So it's kind of an outsider's view on how the Book of Mormon came to be by someone who studied history more than than all of us combined. We're going to talk about his views on what the biggest challenges are to Mormon truth claims. And we are also going to talk about some of his favorite things about Mormonism, many of the things he loves about Mormonism, and then maybe other things we talk about. Then we're going to come back to sort of his born again Christian experience. He is going to talk about his life since then, which was only a couple years ago, and he's going to, you know, talk about some other really important personal things about his life. And he's going to talk about where he is now regarding God and Jesus and his beliefs. Then the final, final episode, which will be separate, is going to Be sort of, how does a thoughtful person who really understands history, who really understands historical criticism, How. How does a thoughtful person in 2022 remain a Christian, remain a believer in God, and. And a Christian, still believe in the Bible, reject the Book of Mormon, but still believe in the Bible? The kind of conversations we've had with Sandra Tanner, Grant Palmer and Randy Bell and others. So I am super excited for the next two days. It's a real honor to have you here, Stephen. So for the second time, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Steven Pynakker [00:03:11] Thank you, John, so much. And I hope you didn't oversell it. And I was like, oh, boy, I feel the pressure on me. I got to really perform here. But no, I just want to thank you very much for having me on the program. And part of it is because, you know, I've been watching your program for years, and between you and Gospel Tangents, I learned a lot about Mormonism. So I had a lot of book knowledge. But you guys fleshed it out, you know how to speak Mormonese and just it became more real to me, you know, and so Mormon Stories was such an important thing in me, really getting a fuller picture of the story of the Restoration and a greater appreciation. So for me, I just, I mean, I'm a total fanboy of yours and it's just, it's kind of surreal that I'm sitting here filming with you, but I felt the Lord early on in this whole thing showed me that I was going to be here and be doing this.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Are you saying I'm a fulfillment of prophecy?

Steven Pynakker [00:04:09] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] We should also just do a shout out to our dear friend Chris Thomas, who I believe introduced us. I mean, we had some correspondence before, but Chris Thomas has been on Mormon Stories. He's a beautiful and dear friend. And we met thanks to Chris Thomas.

Steven Pynakker [00:04:27] Yeah, well, we, we'll get into that in the future. In a future episode, how Christopher Thomas, author of A Pentecostal, reads the Book of Mormon, which happened to be the very first book that I reviewed, of course, and then have developed a friendship with Christopher as well. And so, yeah, we'll get into that. Yeah. Shout out to you, Christopher. You're the bomb.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] And if this weren't enough, we also have Gerardo Sumano here in studio as a co host. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:53] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] This is kind of Mormon Stories week for you. You're like, this is your. You'll do three days of Mormon stories in one week.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] And you have a full time day job.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:02] Yeah. We're in a roll.

Steven Pynakker [00:05:03] So can I just say I can confirm to everyone because a few weeks ago somebody had commented in one of the live chats about how awesome your hair is. I can confirm that you have the best hair in all of Mormondom. I'm a witness to that. Thanks, dude.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Anyway, thanks for joining us, Gerardo. And we have, because Kara is on a much needed vacation this week and because we have an amazing addition to the Mormon Stories podcast crew, we're super happy to have Jen running the soundboard. Jen Camp running the soundboard and co hosting today. Hey, Jen.

Guest 2 [00:05:41] Hey. Hi everyone.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Thanks for joining us.

Guest 2 [00:05:43] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Yeah, Jen will. Jen will be filling in, running the board, co hosting from time to time. Just like Gerardo, just like Kara, just like Margi and so many others. We're trying to build a team of co hosts so that we have lots of diversity and lots of perspectives. Okay, so Stephen, we're going to start with, I think the question of how does an evangelical get to know more about Mormonism than John de Lynn and Gerardo Simano combined? Okay, so where do we, where does your Mormon story begin? And I imagine it begins before Mormonism.

Steven's Background Growing Up Near Chicago

Steven Pynakker [00:06:20] Yeah, yeah, it's really fascinating. So I come from just an area just outside of Chicago, Northwest Indiana. And so it's very, very far away from the Mormon anything Mormon. Right near Gary, actually. Yeah, just a few miles down the road. I lived in one of the wealthiest communities in the state of Indiana, Munster, Indiana. And a couple exits down on the expressway was one of the poorest in Gary, Indiana. So it's quite a contrast. So I wasn't that far from the Michael Jackson homestead, you know, so. Yeah, but so I'm raised, I mean, so just give you context. I'm an evangelical. I was raised an evangelical charismatic Christian and my family was involved in the charismatic movement starting in the 1960s. So I was born in that movement. Now originally come from a Dutch Reformed Christian Reformed background, which is very Calvinistic. And so my parents kind of had a situation where they left the church, if you will, and were under attack for doing that because they became born again spirit filled Christians. And so I don't have like a direct connection to the Christian Reformed Church, but yeah, so that. So I come from a very conservative background and my parents were involved in end time stuff in the 70s and stuff. So there's a lot of parallels between my life and what a lot of Mormons would be. But you asked the question, okay, what got you so interested in Mormonism? Just start there. I was probably around 7 or 8 years old and we Were staying at a Marriott hotel

Guest 2 [00:07:47] and.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Oh, wait, really quickly. Can you talk about what being a Pentecostal would have been like? Evangelical?

Steven Pynakker [00:07:54] Well, well, you could. There's different categories, but Evangelical, Pentecostal, charismatic, they all kind of fall into charismatic. Okay. Charismatic would be a better word.

Guest 2 [00:08:02] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Thank you, Gerardo. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:04] So what was your.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] What's that like being a. Being a charismatic Christian?

Steven Pynakker [00:08:08] Okay. So as a young child, I was probably about 4 or 5 years old and asked my mom. Then I told my mom I wanted to be born again. I wanted Jesus in my heart. So we said the sinner's prayer and that's how I became a Christian. Well, at the time, we were attending a Baptist church on the south side of Chicago that was charismatic and also performed exorcisms. They were a deliverance ministry. And it was such a big deal that Chicago film crews would come to the church and watch them film these people having demons cast out of them. Now this is a little before I was born, but of course the exorcist movie comes out and so now everybody wants to go see this church where people are getting demons cast out of them. So this is the world I was born into very fast. I mean, so we're talking some pretty wild stuff. Imagine being a child seeing, you know, exorcisms happening. Pretty wild.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you're. I mean, you're witnessing this sort of Christianity and that's. I don't think Mormons really have a taste for what a service is like. Yeah, it's speaking in tongues, which is ironic. And Chris Thomas, we talked about this because in the early days of the Mormon Church, they were speaking in tongues.

Steven Pynakker [00:09:22] Oh, yeah, right. No doubt about it. And matter of fact. And we'll get into this, but the church that was founded on April 6, 1830, that church service was full of born again, spirit filled Christians. They were my people.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] It would look more like a Mormon church. Service in 1830 would look more like the church you grew up in.

Steven Pynakker [00:09:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Than a modern Mormon church. Is that fair to say?

Steven Pynakker [00:09:46] They were doing exorcisms back there, man. They were speaking in tongues. I mean, eyewitnessed all this stuff. Early church stuff, man. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So. So you're five and you're born again.

Born-Again Christian Upbringing and Family Life

Steven Pynakker [00:09:56] I think I was actually. It was before kindergarten, so I was probably about four or five now. I stopped. I was held back a year. So it was either four or five years old. And I was unprompted. I just came to my mom crying, told her that I wanted Jesus in my heart. So, you know, so this is the born again thing. Like what is that right? Well, it's just you admit that you're a sinner and that you need Jesus in your life and to ask him to forgive my sins and acknowledge what he did at the cross. Thank you for dying for me on the cross, Lord Jesus, and I give my life to you. That's a variation of a sinner's prayer. And so at that point, within the born again context, that means I became a born again Christian at that moment. I became a new creature and I was a child of God, you know, at that point, I'm part of the going to heaven. My name is written in the Lamb's book of life at that moment. At what age? Like I said, around four or five.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:52] Four or five?

Steven Pynakker [00:10:53] Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:55] Do you think you asking your mom, you know, about it was out of fear because you were seeing all these exorcisms going on and like, oh, what happens if I'm, you know, I'm not born again?

Steven Pynakker [00:11:08] And no, you know, that's interesting because unfortunately within the born again movement there is a lot of fear of hell is a chief motivator, especially for children, which I do think is child abuse. I don't think that you should use fear to scare children into. Right. So there was no fear. It was just, I just, it was just all about wanting to have a relationship with Jesus. And so it wasn't a fear based thing. And yeah, it's, it's funny because I don't remember a whole lot. So when they were attending this church where their demons were being cast out, I really don't remember a whole lot about it. Now I know I witnessed some crazy stuff, right? But you know, when you're that young, you know, you can't remember everything. But I know I would have seen a lot of things, but I don't think it was ever a fear based thing. It was a lot. It was actually a love about just wanting having a relationship with Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] And for how long from age 4 to were you kind of, how many years were you just an active, faithful Christian? We're going to get to your story, but like that continued for how long?

Steven Pynakker [00:12:10] Well, you know, I just want to also talk about another thing that I think was significant, which was around, I was in fourth grade and we were attending a church on the north side of Chicago called Faith Tabernacle. And this was a big church. They used to actually televise wrestling events from there in the 1950s. So this big wrestling arena that's converted into this church Right. Not far from Wrigley Field in Chicago. And it's, like, became a huge inner city church. It was mixed race. There was white, there was black, Puerto Rican, everybody Mexican. Everybody attended this church. It was actually a beautiful megachurch. Yeah, Megachurch. Thousands. Yeah. Well, I was sitting next to Chicago Bears players, you know, I mean, all the. All the quarterbacks and the famous celebrities from Chicago would be attending that church

John Dehlin [00:12:51] during the Jim McMahon fridge kind of era.

Steven Pynakker [00:12:53] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Oh, wow.

Steven Pynakker [00:12:54] Yep. And. Yep. And Vince Evans was a quarterback for the Chicago Bears, and he would call my father for advice about whether what team he should go to, you know, because. Because he was like, I'm a free agent. Where do you think I should go? And my father said, well, you should check out the USFL and join the Chicago Blitz. So he's a quarterback for, like a year. But. But yeah, this was a. So we. We would. We would make the drive. So it was a bit of a drive to get to the north side of Chicago's where, you know, go driving through the whole city from where I'm located.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] From Indiana.

Steven Pynakker [00:13:24] Yeah, from Indiana, Yep. And I consider myself part of Chicago because, you know, it's all Chicago. That part of Indiana is more Chicago than the rest of the state than it is Indiana. And so there was a prophet that was a guest speaker there. His name was Carlton Arthur, and he was also a mega church pastor in the Chicagoland area. And they were having people come up to be prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And so as a young child, I decided to go up there and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now, it was a very surprising thing to me because as soon as he touched me, I felt like an external force hit me. And it was shocking to me, and I wasn't expecting it. And the next thing I know, I start uttering things. Now, I didn't go up there with expectation that I would speak in tongues, but I. There was just something that came out of my mouth and like, I was like. It was like I was speaking in tongues as a young child. And then as this little fourth grader, I fell to the floor and almost took my mom down and then just was, you know, slain in the spirit would be the lingo, you know, within the charismatic movement. Sounds a lot like what you'd see in the Book of Mormon as well, you know, But. But yeah, it was a very, very, very powerful. So that experience I had in fourth grade, that brought me well into my early 20s of, like, hey, there's a God. I felt the creator of the universe touched me and it was a very, very real to me, you know, so, so that, you know, I didn't have any doubt at all well into my early 20s. That, that moment, that event that happened to me was just so powerful that there was no reason not to think that there's a God. He loves me. He touched me that day. I experienced his presence in a very powerful way.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] What was your home like with your parents? Like, was your dad a leader in the church?

Steven Pynakker [00:15:25] Well, my father was a businessman. He was a prominent businessman, owned a chain tire chain auto repair, tire chain. He originally started with Goodyear, is 19 years old, was one of the youngest GMs in the Chicagoland area for Goodyear, and then eventually branched out and started his own chain automotive repair shops. And you want to know what the name of the. Of the shops were? Yeah, it's called PTL Tire and Auto. You know, Praise the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] That's awesome.

Steven Pynakker [00:15:52] He named that out. He went and saw Jim Baker speaking and of course they had the PTL Club. Jim Baker. And somebody said, I'm going to call PTL Tire and all. Praise the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] Wow.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:00] And. And so to predate it a little bit, my father got involved in this group called the Full Gospel Businessmen's association, which was the forerunner of the modern charismatic movement. It was kind of ecumenical. In other words, it was a independent organization. They called it Full Gospel Businessmen. So often it was businessmen that were involved and they'd had these local chapters throughout the country. And it was an Armenian named Dimas Shakarian that founded this group and it exploded. It took Pentecostalism from the backwoods and brought it into the suburbs and into the cities and into the mainline and into the Catholic Church. So in the 60s and 70s, you have this amazing manifestation of the movement of the Holy Spirit where these churches that were kind of rigid and very conservative, next thing you know, they're having people speaking in tongues. And next thing you know, like on Friday nights they're having these Full Gospel Businessmen association services where it's packed with people that are Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, you name it. Every denomination was there in unity where worshiping Jesus and they would have these healing services where now my. My dad's area covered like South Bend, Indiana. So there are these prominent priests that would come and do these healing services and, and they'd be sitting. One guy would be sitting in a chair praying over people for healing and he'd have a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. Right. It was just a crazy time. And this is, like I said, it was a little before my time, but there was just this amazing stuff that was going on. Kathryn Coleman came out of this, who inspired Benny Hinn and of course, like, talk about Benny Hinn later on. But this was a very remarkable movement that was happening. So my father was very prominent in this organization in the Chicagoland area. So that got us connected to just about every mega church pastor, just about every televangelist we had a connection with. And there's a lot of Christians in the Chicagoland area. It's kind of has its own Bible Belt. And so a lot of mega churches and Willow Creek and other groups that are quite large have their, you know, are stationed out in the Chicago area. So, I mean, I was just born into just knowing all these people and running with these people and getting, you know, later on, I can tell you, getting job offers from televangelists. I could have taken jobs with them. So I know how this world operates. But, yeah, so my father was just very active in this world. And he was definitely a very strong type, a kind of guy, very intimidating. He intimidated everybody. And I actually spent most of my childhood in fear of him. So my father was somebody that everybody loved and adored and thought he was this great man of God. And I don't doubt that he was, but he also. I lived in the house where, you know, he. I wouldn't say he was. He was emotionally abusive at times, and he would drink and there was just. It was not an easy time. Sometimes my child was very difficult with having a father that on one hand had a reputation as being this great spiritual man. But then your father's such a great man. He's such a great man of God. And then being at home and seeing. And my mom's really nervous about me doing this interview because she knew I was going to talk about something.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Is that still alive?

Steven Pynakker [00:19:09] So he passed away a couple years ago. Part of the reason I located to Florida was to take care of my mom so she could take care of my dad, who had dementia.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:19:18] And he passed away from a MRSA infection.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] But your mom was concerned you'd talk about him?

Steven Pynakker [00:19:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:19:25] Yeah, she. She's. She's. That's what's making her nervous about me talking about my personal life. And also, like, don't throw me under the bus, you know, my mom or dad. And. But I. And so I won't get into too many details, but there were some difficult times. My father. I always had this. It's A weird thing because on one hand, I think I was my father's favorite, but also I spent most of my life hating him. I come from a family of five children.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Or three children.

Steven Pynakker [00:19:54] No, five. Five children. Okay. Actually, let me tell a little bit about that. So I have. My parents are from the silent generation, and they had three boomers and then two Gen Xers. So there was a 10 year gap between the first batch and then my sister.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] You were in second batch?

Steven Pynakker [00:20:19] I was the first of the second batch. I have a younger sister who was 18 months older. Younger than me.

Guest 2 [00:20:23] You were fourth.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:23] So, yeah, I'm number four. But that all started, interestingly enough, and we could talk about the spiritual aspect of it too, is that my mom was listening to a radio preacher and she was on birth control at the time, and this radio preacher was railing against birth control. And so my mom felt a conviction that she was supposed to get off the pill. And so shortly thereafter, I'm born, and then 18 months later, my sister's born. And the reason why I bring that up is that some people view that as a providential thing. Right. Not long after I was still a baby, we had a neighbor of ours, was a devout Catholic, and she secretly baptized me into the Roman Catholic Church. It's a valid Catholic. I am technically a Catholic because she loved me so much. My mom, actually, when she first heard, found out about it, she was very angry about it and actually only found out about this a few years ago. She was very angry with her, but then she realized, well, she did it out of love. Right. And so that's why she. But so technically I was. And this is the thing, my neighbor didn't baptize any of my other siblings, but she baptized me. So people, ever since, from the very beginning, have felt like I've had a special calling on my life. I didn't ask for it, but people have felt that there's a calling on my life. Like a kind of like a prophetic calling. I don't want to call myself a prophet, but there are people that feel that I have a prophetic calling. So, like, even people who are outside of my tradition saw something. And so this, like, my mom said she loved you so much that she baptized you. You know, so she kind of looks at it as it was an act of love.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] It's kind of like when Mormons do baptisms for the dead. They do it as an act of love.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:07] Yeah, I guess. I mean, you know what?

John Dehlin [00:22:09] Without consent. But I'm not trying to.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:11] Well, I didn't have consent. Yeah. You know, I believe in believers. Baptism. Right. You know, like the Book of Mormon teaches, you know, that's scriptural. I think the Book of Mormon gets that one. Right. But I think that in one sense, though, that, you know, I understand whether. Where that neighbor was coming, she was very sincere, and so there's no animosity there.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Well, I also think you probably do believe you have a calling or a mission. And I. So I don't mean to detract from that. I think you do feel like you have a calling in a mission.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:35] Well, yeah, and that's interesting because I did feel that I did have a calling. But then, of course, when you decide you don't believe in God anymore, that complicates it. That complicates it.

Guest 2 [00:22:44] And then.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:44] And then. And then. Yeah, we can get it.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] That's going to be fun.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] Well, okay, so growing up in a household with, I'm guessing it's kind of a patriarchal household. Your dad's this type a businessman. Your mom is raising five kids. You. They're heavily Christian.

Steven Pynakker [00:23:01] Very.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Anything you want to say about your middle school, high school years? Being a Christian? Were you known as the uber Christian at your high school? That kind of thing?

Steven Pynakker [00:23:09] Yeah. And so I was raised in Christian schools, but even within the Christian school context, I would definitely have been viewed as the uber Christian. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] So private schools.

Steven Pynakker [00:23:19] Yeah, yeah. So I went to a school called Calvary Academy in South Holland, Illinois. Just so you understand, the charismatic movement permeated the Dutch reform movement. So a lot of Dutch Calvinists got filled in the spirit, started speaking in tongues, and so they started their own school for. For basically charismatic Calvinists. And so that was where I attended my elementary school. And just folks. So you understand something because they were the devil stuff, right? Like the exorcism church and all that kind of stuff. I had high school in the 70s. My. All my older siblings were in high school, and they took all their rock and roll albums and smashed them and burned them because they felt that they were demonic. Right. And. And I. I parallel that with. With Christopher Thomas, who during the same time was in a rock and roll band. So in one sense, even though he's Pentecostal and they're more strict than. Than us, he was playing in rock and roll band. And my. My siblings were smashing up and burning their rock and roll records. So that's like me as a young child, you know, so they're all older than me. And then I had the younger sister and then. So, yeah, elementary school and then what

John Dehlin [00:24:32] year were you born? I just want to know.

Steven Pynakker [00:24:34] 1973.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Okay, so you're four years younger than me.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] All right.

Steven Pynakker [00:24:38] Yeah, yeah, thanks. And so I do have a question

Christian Sabbath, Rules, and Chastity Standards

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:43] about, because I don't have a sense of what Christian growing up would, what their experience would be regard regarding the Sabbath. You know, like how you experience, like in Mormonism, we usually a lot of conservative families won't watch tv, we won't only just, you know, go to church and that's it. Or, or how did you experience things like is there a baptism in Christianity? How does that work? You know, if you can make associations with Mormonism and how you experience them maybe differently.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] Do you kind of mean how strict was his upbringing?

Steven Pynakker [00:25:21] Yeah, how strict.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:22] And also for Mormons who are listening to this, who may not have an idea of the differences, you know, between growing up Christian and growing up Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:32] Well, and I think it's interesting because there is a. So within the Christian Reformed Church, they were strong, strong observers of honoring the Sabbath. So they, they didn't, they didn't go to the store, they stayed home all day. You didn't play outside. Maybe if you're a little liberal, they'd let you play in the backyard. But typically you stayed in your home, it was a holy day, you didn't spend any money, you didn't do anything.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] This was you or not you.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:57] This was my parents world, but also my grandparents felt this way growing up. So you still had a lot of family members that were still thought this way. So you had, part of my family went charismatic and the other part of the family just were still ultra conservative Calvinists, Sabbath keepers, that kind of stuff. And so all the same hypocrisies that you see in Mormonism, for instance, like we honor the Sabbath, but when we go on vacation, we, you know, we'll go to a restaurant when we're on vacation type kind of thing. Right, and so you had the same type of things like that. So what's it like? Okay, so as a Christian, we were taught that the Bibble, the Bible is all very literally true. And so we were taught young earth creationism.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] Inerrant. Inerrant Bible.

Steven Pynakker [00:26:39] Oh yeah, absolutely. There was no question like that. I mean anything like, anything that had, like we would watch television programs that have a specials like Battle for the Bible, you know, the Bible's under attack. And so this was a big thing, like anything that had to do with scholarship was viewed very suspiciously within our community. So like, yeah, this like the Bible was the core of everything. And you took it literally and you didn't question anything in it. If you question one Bible verse, even the long ending of Mark or. Most people didn't even know that there was these disputes, even though it would be in the footnotes in their own versions of the Bible, they didn't pay any attention to that, that there would be issues with some of the texts and everything, textual variants and stuff like that. People didn't even see those. See, that kind of thing took the Bible very, very literally. It was all true. So how about interpretations?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:26] Because if you go to one church, a pastor might interpret the same verse differently than a different pastor. How do you reconcile those?

Steven Pynakker [00:27:34] You know, partly is what the advantage of Protestantism in general has is that, you know, you can go to just about any church you want and if you're attending a Methodist church and you have a problem with something the Wesley brothers said, the founders of Methodism, you can just go down the street to the Presbyterian Church and that's fine. And you can still keep your job. You don't have to, you know, so there's a lot of diversity in opinion. Don't get me wrong though, we'd get into some big time arguments with people different. I mean, we'd say they're Christians, but oh, you're wrong about this doctrine. Infant baptism is of the devil. And I get in arguments with people like that, you know, that kind of. So we get into these big theological, you know, conversations like that. But yeah, so like what do we do with all the different interpretations? That's where like liberty in Christ comes. That's where you as an individual like, well, you know, this pastor who really gave a really good sermon, I don't know if I agree with him on that, but boy, you know, I like this part. So really for a lot of us it was almost like you just go to these churches, you watch these different ministers on tv, you gotta remember a lot of these Christians are watching ministries on TV and one minister on the next hour might contradict the minister that was on the previous hour. So it's much more of a ground up type kind of thing. So you don't have this patriarchy where thus saith the Lord and you just believe and you follow. We don't really have that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:49] So when you're respecting the Sabbath and being pretty strict with that, that's kind of like your parents interpretation of what you, how you should live it. But then there might be another family next door who attends the same church, but they don't interpret it that way.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:02] Well, so once my parents left the cares, left the Christian Reformed Church and got involved in the Charismatic movement, they moved away from that. And because they viewed that as being legalism, right, the Sunday Sabbath stuff, that's legalism. But they still felt it was a day that should be honored because it was definitely, you know, instilled in them, you know, you still should go to church and those kind of things. And I remember even, like, as a kid, judging another Christian Reformed family for doing work on. On the Sabbath, even though I wasn't a member of that church. They're a member of that church and they shouldn't be doing yard work because that's what they believe. So, you know, there is that legalistic thing that happens too, there.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] So what were the rules growing up for you?

Steven Pynakker [00:29:40] You know, that's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Like, obviously drinking was okay because your dad drank.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:44] Well, you know, my dad, actually, I didn't even know my dad drank until I was in junior high. So actually we didn't, like, at family parties and stuff like that. We never had. We just had pop. We didn't have beer or anything, or drink openly or anything like that. It wasn't necessarily considered sin. Drunkenness is considered a sin. Right, but it wasn't. And people smoked, you know, so you, you and people, you know, drink coffee. So we weren't. Word of wisdom, people dancing? No. Dancing within the Christian Reformed tradition. Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] I mean, your upbringing.

Steven Pynakker [00:30:14] Yeah, we. My mom didn't like the idea of dancing. Like, they, they felt uncomfortable with it. Um, as we got older and into high school, that kind of. That no longer was that big of a deal. But, but there was that idea still that you didn't dance.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] What about dating? Like, how was dating control?

Steven Pynakker [00:30:32] Well, you know, that's relationships, some. So it's interesting because I actually had a lot of freedom growing up. They didn't actually give a whole lot of rules. And part of it was, is they just trusted me. They just knew that I was a good kid and that I wasn't going to do anything wrong. And for the most part, that was true. I, you know, I did follow. I had my own kind of core values and beliefs growing up. And so I, I really didn't do a whole lot of. I mean, I drank a little, you know, as I had older friends who got, you know, I was able to drink beer and stuff when I was like, 14, that kind of thing, but I wasn't a regular thing. It was just kind of being cool. Like, wow, I'm 14. I'm hanging out with these 19 year olds and I get to drink beer. Like this is really cool type kind of thing. But there weren't. My parents actually were hands off. So I was able to pretty much do whatever I wanted.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:21] Was there a law of chastity that you were taught?

Steven Pynakker [00:31:24] Yeah. So it's very clear that, you know, sex is for marriage, sex before marriage is looked down upon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:31] Is it as bad as like, you know, the sin next to murder?

Steven Pynakker [00:31:35] Not. No, not that, no, not that extreme because I, and that's, that's really bad. I can't believe people would teach that. That's just my opinion. But, but sexual immorality was a big thing. And not only that. Now in the, around the early 2000s, a lot of my cousins really started getting into the purity culture. And Sam Joshua Harris wrote a book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. It was a best selling book within the evangelical world. And so all my younger cousins and stuff really started embracing. Like you don't date. Dating is not just a date. You're. You're looking for a future spouse. Sound familiar? Right? It's that, that's kind of. So a lot of. And we were taught that actually there was a guy named Bill Gothard who really strict, very similar to a patriarchal view that the Mormons have. As a matter of fact, you know how you guys have that umbrella Monteith where you have, you know, God and you have the father and then you have the wife. He used the exact, I think they, the church may have even stolen that motif from him. So there was a, there was some patriarchal stuff, but it was not strictly enforced. But it was kind of understood that dad's the authority figure, God put him in that and he is the male and he's in charge. But they never, like I said, they did give me a lot of freedom.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] Okay, so anything else you want to talk about your Christian upbringing before we kind of introduce Mormonism? Anything that's really important to your Mormon story?

Steven Pynakker [00:32:57] I think, I think that's the gist. I mean, like I said, I, you know, we believe in miracles, we believe in speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit. And also just one last thing is that, you know, my parents, in the 1970s, a lot of Christians were about end of the world stuff which was Jehovah's Witnesses and Worldwide Church of God, Both believing in 1975 Jesus was going to return. But the best selling book of the 1970s was the late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay that sold more books in the seventies than any book in the seventies. Secular or Christian really? Yes, it was the best selling book. The late Great Planet Earth was huge. And it basically was saying that Jesus would come in 1988.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Idiot.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:34] 1988. He. Yep. And, and so that's why it sold a lot of books. Right. Because so my. I, I remember growing up with, seeing the old survival food that my parents stocked up in the basement. Oh, so they were kind of like preppers. Like I tell, I told Rod Meldrum at dinner with him last night, you know, and I told him, I said, yeah, we were McConkey evangelicals, very right wing, very conc. Conservative and a very like end of days. We're in the end days.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] What you're making me think of is that Mormon general authorities were heavily influenced by the broader Christian world. Mormons just probably didn't know it.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:11] Yeah, I think so. I think I, when I see some of the stuff they use, it's like they got that from us. It's very surprising how much how similar the our movements are, especially like the right wing conservative evangelicalism against civil rights

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:25] movement and that kind of stuff.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:26] I mean there's no doubt that there's, there was that aspect, especially within your southern based churches, which that's the core of evangelical Christianity is still very southeastern United States. So yeah, Jerry Falwell, for instance, he burned all the old sermon. The tapes of the old sermons. But in the 1960s, Jerry Falwell was preaching segregationist sermons. And then of course he switched in the 1970s to going after feminists. In the 1980s he goes after the gays. He just had to find a boogeyman, you know, because whatever, help raise him money.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] Yeah, but, yeah, and Boyd K. Packer was saying that, you know, that quote about gays, feminists and intellectuals was in the 80s. So I mean they're clear. And even now you just look at how Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses or evangelical Christians are dealing with the secular world. The Mormon church is right in lock, stuck with step with them. So maybe they to some degree always have been.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:16] Yeah, I think, and it's interesting is Jerry Falwell with his Moral Majority was also making attempts to work with the Mormons as well because of the commonalities of the morality and stuff like that. So there's, there's a ton. That's why when I read a lot of like, like Ezra Tef Benson, I had an uncle who loved Ezra Tef

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Benson, who is a non Mormon right. Christian.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:35] Just like that. Ezra Teff Benson, he, he gets it right. You know, he was a Big fan of his, you know, so. You know, so, yeah, very. I mean, I read John Birch Society materials when I was a kid in junior high. I mean, I would. I couldn't wait for the latest issue of New American to come in. And so, like, so, I mean, I'm. So that's why when I talk to, like, people within Rod Meldrum scoops, like, oh, yeah, I. I speak your lingo, because I've been there, you know, I know what it's like.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] Yeah. So when does Mormonism come into your world?

First Encounters with Mormonism as a Child

Steven Pynakker [00:36:04] You know, so I think I was around 7 or 8 years old, and we were at. Staying at a Marriott hotel. And of course, in 82, you know, I actually know. I think based on the addition that I remember, it was. It was just only out for a very short period of time. My friend Robert, a Book of Mormon Editions, YouTube channel did an episode on it, and I finally was like, that's the edition. Because I was looking for a particular one with the Angel Moroni blue.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] Light blue with the.

Steven Pynakker [00:36:30] No, not the light blue one that was real popular. This was one that came out in 1980, and only that was on for, like, two years. So it was a rare edition around 81, 82. So. So I date. I'm able to date it now based on the addition that was at the Marriott hotel. So I got my Gideon Bible here, and I got this other book. I'm like, I start paging through it, and I see these paintings, and I'm just. Freeberg. Oh, I'm a big fan of Freeberg, man. He's my dude. And I'm looking through these paintings, and I'm like, this looks a lot familiar, but different. I remember seeing, like, King Noah. King Noah. And then I see this picture of this Jesus coming in the world, and I'm like, what is Jesus doing in the Old Testament? Like in an Old Testament scene? And then I'm just like. And then Samuel, the Lamanite. I mean, I mean, if you're a kid and you like adventures and wars, I mean, that is like a cool, cool painting. And so I was just entranced, absolutely entranced by Mormonism just based on those paintings. So I went to my parents, like, what is this? You know, and they said, well, that's a Bible from this group. They're based in Utah, and we don't believe it. And. But I thought, but they have a Bible, and it looks just like my Bible and had verses. And I was like, what's going on here? You know, and it's. It's Funny, because even as a young child, I actually thought at times, like, we need a second Bible because the Bible we have now ain't working anymore. So I think there's also this certain resonance that I had with this idea that there was this other young farm boy.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] What do you mean it wasn't working?

Steven Pynakker [00:38:00] Well, because it just appeared to me that people weren't following the Bible. Like, why are people following the Bible? This is God's word, right? I didn't know anything about how it came to be. It's like this is like we got this book and it tells us everything you need to know, but it's not working anymore. So we better get a second Bible. We need another that's modern and addresses everything.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] More cowbell, more Bible, more Bible.

Steven Pynakker [00:38:21] You need the Bible 2.0, you know. And so as a young kid, I really thought that, like, that's what we need. So, like, I hear about this other kid who kind of feels like, you know, encounters this scripture right now. This would, that kind of stuff would resonate with me because I was always, I always, I never thought that the canon was closed. That's a Catholic doctrine. That's not a Christian doctrine. It's not even in the Bible. So I was always open to the idea there could be other scripture because as a charismatic, we believe that the gifts are God can speak in any way he wants. And if he wants to give us new scripture, that's his. It's not our place to tell him, right. That you can't have new Scripture.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] The all powerful creator of the universe.

Steven Pynakker [00:39:04] And so, yeah, I just thought, okay, that, you know, even at the time I thought we need to buy a second Bible so that we can reach the lost man. Because I always had a burden for saving people and telling them about Jesus and how much he loves you and how can you know. And that's what the reason why this world is such a mess is. They don't know Jesus. Like, yeah, you know, like I see these people in India, like they're, they got all these problems. There's. And they got all this poverty and there's people starving. Don't they understand that if they just accepted Jesus, their society would be so much better?

John Dehlin [00:39:33] You think that now or you think that?

Steven Pynakker [00:39:34] No, that's what I thought as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Okay, good.

Steven Pynakker [00:39:36] Like if they just knew Jesus, then all their problems would be solved. They're backwards. They need to hear the Word. That was real strong about that kind of stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:42] That is such a powerful story, I think, because it reminds me a Lot to the beginnings of Mormonism when Joseph Smith had just published the Book of Mormon and then a bunch of Christians who, Who are wanting more, who are thinking, you know, like Sidney Rigdon and like, there must be more, and they're finding the Book of Mormon and devouring it. And we were talking about Helen Mark Kimball the other day, and the story goes that she as a kid would like, read the Book of Mormon and memorize passages and just like they would use it as a textbook on. And she loved it. And it just, it just really interesting.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:22] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:23] The connection.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:24] Yeah. And we can. And I think that's worth talking in future conversations, but I think that, that there was that real. See, Mormonism early on was not about anything other than we got new scripture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:34] Yep.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:35] We got a new, new, new message

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:37] from God, which turns out it's pretty Christian, right? No, not very Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:43] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I. We'll talk about that because I have some things I want to talk about with the Book of Mormon, but. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But it's true. That's why I think a lot of this resonates with, with me. The story resonates with me because of the commonalities, you know, that I had with Joseph as a young boy, seeing the same problems that he saw.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Yeah. So how did your relationship with Mormonism progress after encountering that Book of Mormon?

Steven Pynakker [00:41:07] So there is this Chicago television station in Chicago, channel 38. It was the biggest. About the biggest television Christian television station in the country.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] The VHF.

Steven Pynakker [00:41:16] No, it was UHF. Channel 38.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] UHF.

Steven Pynakker [00:41:18] Yep, yep. And they had started in the 70s and. And they decided they were going to show the God Makers on Chicago Television. And there was this big, big buildup to broadcasting it. And they would be showing like the God Makers cartoon on a loop, you know, just to kind of promote the thing. So I was able to watch the God Makers cartoon. And I remember just watching it and thinking like I was watching something very, very naughty. Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] Why?

Steven Pynakker [00:41:43] Well, I talked about having babies in heaven. You know, that's like sex is to the kid. Right. Like, he hasn't quite figured it out. Right. But he's like. I remember even thinking as a little kid, I tape recording as a child where I would give commentary. And I remember giving it and nobody ever listened to them, but I would like, give commentary on like the Falkland War, and then I would give commentary on Mormonism. And I remember one of the comments I said was, you know, and then these women are going to have babies for eternity. I just can't imagine how hard that would be on them. I feel really bad for them. And that's why I wouldn't want to be a Mormon, you know, because of what they would have to go through, you know, so. But I watched this cartoon and then the big night was going to be that the God Makers beyond tonight at 7 o'. Clock. And I couldn't turn it on because I was so afraid of it. Like it was watching something very naughty to me. So I really wanted to watch the God Makers, like actually watch it. But I was like, well, I don't know my parents, what are they going to think if I watch this naughty program where they talk about like these things, Right? Because, you know, I think they would have talked about, you know, like sex stuff as well.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:45] God coming on. Impregnated Mary. Yeah, Virgin Mary.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:48] Yeah, exactly, yeah. Because you see the cartoon, you know, God knocking on the door, you know. Yeah. And so I couldn't watch it because I was afraid I'd get in trouble or maybe I'd see something naughty. Right. And then this is what's so interesting, is that after this, now I read this just from the history, because I think it's important, and I read this years later, is that this is the only time that officials from the Mormon church addressed the God Makers. They literally, and I wish if there's a tape somewhere, we got to find it. They actually had members from the local, the bishop or stake president, I don't know, some officials from the Chicagoland area from the Mormon Church to come on and do a live program afterwards to talk about the God Makers. And the only time that like officially people from the church came on and addressed the God Makers. So they had like Christian apologists and they had these Mormons on there. I think the Mormons would like, they're in headlights. I don't think they knew what hit them, you know, And I think that's the only time they ever would have discussed it. So if anybody has an old tape from channel 38, early 80s, man, put that on YouTube, that would be interesting.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Okay. But you didn't see it.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:52] But I knew all about it because I watched that cartoon, man. So I knew there was something naughty about Mormonism, something very exotic about it. And so that would be the two things. The Book of Mormon in the hotel and then the God Makers cartoon. So that just festered. I always knew about Mormons and I was interested and I thought, okay, honestly, people don't realize that my exposure to Mormonism basically was anti Mormonism stuff. So as a kid I would read Things about, you know, the Ed Decker stuff and all the anti stuff. That's really all I knew about Mormonism and then. But I was always interested in it. So I. I would read whatever I could now and then. But then starting in high school, I got my first book in my book collection, which was a Book of Mormon that I stole from a Marriott hotel. And that was on a high school basketball tournament. And that was book number one in my collection. And then as I was in high school, but really mostly in my early 20s.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] What was the book again?

Steven Pynakker [00:44:46] The Book of Mormon. I stole from a Marriott during a festival. That's the first book in my collection. But then, you know, I started. I started collecting books a little bit where I'd buy an occasional book or I'd read an occasional book and stuff like that. But then, I mean, I guess we could talk about me actually encountering a Mormon. I was so. I was. I was still my early to mid 20s and I was a department head for the weights and measures department in the city government that I worked at. And I was attending a weights and measures conference in Portland, Oregon, and I wasn't 25 yet, so I couldn't rent a car. So down the road was Powell's Used Bookstore, which at the time the world's largest bookstore.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] I've been there. It's amazing.

Steven Pynakker [00:45:29] Great bookstore, I love that. So I just basically just parked a space in front of the Mormonism section and just poured through the books because I was interested. But I still only had a few books and I wasn't really collecting at that point. But then I run into this guy who's probably around my age and he just converted to Mormonism. Well, I thought I knew Mormonism. Like, oh, I'm an expert on Mormonism. So I'm just going to blow this guy out of the water. Three hours later I'm like, man, I'm not making any headway here. Like, I really don't know Mormonism. So that really, now you gotta understand, at this point I would describe myself as a charismatic Calvinist. And Calvinists are all about winning arguments and getting the facts right, getting the doctrine right. And the fact that I was like, okay, I need to get this right. So I really need to study Mormonism and I really need to start really researching it. And so that's when I just started buying books and acquiring books about Mormonism. And it helps that not a few couple years later, I get a job at Borders so I can use the employee discount to add to my collection of Mormon stuff. And then everything I can get my hands on, I start reading. And then, and adding to my collection, I really started educating myself on Mormonism. And this is the thing that really, the more and more I read about Mormonism and really studied it, whether it was, you know, like at the time would have been no man knows my history and all these other books, the more and more I actually found that I, I couldn't hate Joseph Smith. I kind of liked him, you know, I couldn't hate on the guy.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Really.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:58] Yeah, yeah. I just, I found him to be a very human person. And I also felt like there's a lot of parallels between. I felt like him and I are very similar people. I can see myself in certain situations saying and doing things that he did when I'd read the history. Like, see, because I was involved in politics, right? And so when you're involved in politics, you get, you get really good at reading people, reading a room and telling people what they want to hear. And I justified it because I'm a Christian and I'm going to help bring about the kingdom of God here on earth by us Christians taking over the government and helping us establish the kingdom of God here on earth for his return. Because I would have been at the time a person of like a dominion theology which believed that basically we need to take care overall spheres of government, entertainment and industry and actually take over the country and bring a. For bring about the kingdom of God here on earth.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] It's like Sharia law, but for Christianity.

Steven Pynakker [00:48:00] Yeah, absolutely. And I bought into that stuff. I was like really big time into like far right, using the Bible as our guide to govern our nation and to bring back America back to its Christian roots. And so that was my whole motivation to get involved in politics, was to bring God's kingdom here on earth. And in my mind, whatever I did and said I could justify because I'm helping bringing forth God's kingdom. So if I have to be manipulative or not, not, not totally honest with people. And then in my mind, even at the time when something would come in my head, I would be like. And I would say something, I'd be like, well, that was the Holy Spirit.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:45] Which seems like that's what Joseph Smith ended up believing at the end, right? Or even early on that he ended with a very expanded personal theology. He wouldn't talk about it publicly, but then historians talk about how he would believe that anything he did was justified by God because he was bringing forth the kingdom of God and didn't matter if he had to lie a little or do some stuff that were kind of murky, but. But he felt justified.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] It's the pious fraud. It's the Dan Vogel pious fraud kind of thing that he believed, but that he believed that it's okay sometimes to lie or deceive if it's for a higher cause.

Steven Pynakker [00:49:30] Yeah. And I think that, you know, and I've had Dan on my program and he. And we've discussed this as well. And, you know, this is just what I want to make very clear because I have a lot of conservative LDS believers and I have liberals, progressives, basically everybody's watching it. And because the point of my show is to be neutral and to just allow all the voices of the restoration to be heard on my channel. So when I say this, I'm talking like, okay, if the, If. If Mormonism isn't a true religion, then these would be the naturalistic explanations. So I was looking at the time as Mormonism as. As just Joseph made it all up. Right. And that this is how he did it. Right. And so in my mind, I could see the parallels between how I was able to justify saying and doing certain things because. And even, like, I would have things pop in my head and be like, well, I said that because that's. The Holy Spirit told me that. Right. So we can see within the critique of the pious fraud model that. I can see how that could work, how that could be operational, because I would say that on some level, I was doing a similar thing as he was.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] And just going back a tiny bit to your reactions to Fawn Brody and no Man Knows My History. I'm thinking about, as a Mormon, you grow up, first of all, not knowing the book exists. But if you actually learned about the book and mention it, you're told she's the evilest woman who's ever lived, and that book is the worst book you could ever read. Then I fast Forward to like mid 2000s, and Richard Bushman is saying, oh, yeah, I've read no Man Knows My History. I think she was actually very kind to Joseph Smith. And I'm like, what? And what you're saying is that was your independent experience of Fawn Brody's treatment of Joseph Smith. You came away liking Joseph Smith after reading no Man Knows My History, which is a mind blower for a Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [00:51:24] Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, personally, look, I know there's problems with Joseph. Right. But I tell people, I said back in the day, Jen smiling. Yeah, of course. I'm sorry. I tell people, I said, if I was around the same age as Joseph, and we were living around the same time. Back in the day, I said, Joseph and I would have been friends or at least frenemies.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] You would have been John C. Bennett, basically. Well, I'm kidding. I was kidding. Pixie rigged it.

Steven Pynakker [00:51:56] Yeah. Okay. But I think him and I would have been the kind of guys that we would have gotten. Got into arguments with each other all the time.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:01] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:52:02] He would have excommunicated me a half dozen times, and then the next Sunday he had me speaking. I really feel like that kind of connection with Joseph that I really honestly think we would have been friends and we would have been rivals at times because, like, I'm kind of a type A guy, you know, Like, I ain't letting Joseph, you know, hold sway over me, man. You know, Like, I got the. I got. I got the mantle too type kind of thing. And so I think. But I honestly think we would have been buds. I mean, personally, I just think there's a part. There's so much about him that I resonate with as a human being.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] And he would have loved you unless you challenged his authority.

Steven Pynakker [00:52:34] Well, yeah, but you know what? I would have done it behind closed doors, like, okay, Joseph, you come over here. I'm gonna give you a tongue lashing because I disagree with what you're doing here. And no disrespect to the prophet. I've used him. He was a human being, a real man.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:52:45] And I just think that I look at him just as a regular guy. Honestly, I think we would have been good friends. I. I just feel that way.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] That's awesome. So. So you're reading Mormonism more intently in the late 80s. You're into politics by this point.

Deep Dive into Mormon Studies During His Twenties

Steven Pynakker [00:53:01] This would be late 90s. Yeah, the late 90s. That. Well, the, the. The high school.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] That's right. Late 90s.

Steven Pynakker [00:53:07] Yeah, late 90s.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] Oh, late 90s, yeah. Okay, so you're in your 20s.

Steven Pynakker [00:53:11] Yeah, in the late 20s.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] Okay, so you're, you're in the late 90s. You're reading. Okay. When you're reading Mormon history, is it so that you can convert Mormons to true Christianity? Is it just because you are fascinated by the history? Like, what's motivating you? Because a person can spend their time in lots of different ways. I imagine you really valued your time. Did you have a. Did you have a conscious process for why I'm going to start studying Mormonism in your 20s in depth?

Steven Pynakker [00:53:41] Well, like I said earlier, it was. That encounter with that guy was like, okay, I got to really get to know this stuff. And so the, the original intent was

John Dehlin [00:53:48] just because, just some guy, like lots of people know lot of things. Why, why did you care enough about Mormonism?

Steven Pynakker [00:53:54] Because you're not going to beat me in an argument. Oh, and this guy was beating me in an argument. And that Calvinist in me. No, no, no, no. I'm going to study. So I just, yeah, so like, so my whole thing was I'm going to study this, I'm going to be, I'm going to get to really, really know it so I can win that argument next time I run into this person or a person like him. Because I was like, wow. Yeah, so, so that was the whole intent was I disprove it. I'm going to show. It's all these, all these things that, the stereo stereotypical things that evangelicals have about Mormonism. I was going to go in and I was going to go in strong and I'm going to really take these guys down.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:31] Now I have a question for you because I had a very similar experience while I was serving my mission with Jehovah Witnesses and I became so fascinated with Yehovah Witnesses and studied so much about them to basically win arguments. But while I was researching, I started noticing a lot of holes in my own theology and a lot of things that looked a lot better on their side. So although I would know how to win arguments against them, I also knew that on my side I had big issues as well or that sometimes even what they had to offer was better.

John Dehlin [00:55:09] Are you asking if that happened to him?

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:11] Well, yeah. Did that happen to you as you were studying Mormonism and being like, oh, this idea that Joseph had was kind of interesting.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:19] I mean, they built cities, man, they built empires. I mean they, there's so much of a moment, meaning the Joseph and Brigham and everything that what you were able to accomplish was just, is very impressive. Right. And, and, and just so you know, I mean, I know a lot about Jehovah. I used to hang out with ex Jehovah's Witnesses at the bars and so I know Jehovah's Witnesses. I, I was told that the only way I could know more about is if I became a member. So I know a lot about them too. And I don't have any respect for Jehovah's Witnesses like the Jehovah's Witness Church, the Watchtower Society, as I do for the church, Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints and its organizations because they're anti intellectual. They don't give us universities, they don't really contribute to much good to society.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:03] But I mean, I'm talking about you as a Christian, you're studying Mormonism. Are you finding things that you're fascinated about Mormonism, that you're like, oh, I wish I had that in Christianity.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] And another way to also ask that is just the segue to at some point you're losing your faith. Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:19] Yeah. You know, in your story. Yeah. And. And you know, honestly, like, so, like as I'm really, really studying Mormonism, I guess you could say that I'm starting to also move in a more progressive direction within my Christian faith. So this would be more, more because I, as I started research because I don't just read Mormonism. I mean, I read everything. So I study things very intently. So I started studying different things. And so as I once I started engaging modern scholarship. Because if you're studying Mormonism, you also realize that you're going to be encountering a lot of other things like biblical criticism and other modes of investigating other religions. Those same tools you can also use on Christianity. And I felt it was like, well, if I am going to be going this deep in Mormonism, I have to be consistent and also maybe do a similar study with Christianity as well.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] So was it. That's great. So Gerardo, maybe he was right. So your study of Mormonism led you to start questioning Christianity.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:18] Well, if you're an honest researcher and you're not. So the, the early part of me was about winning an argument, but as I delve deeper and deeper into the history and starting to like, you know, I kind of like Joseph or, you know, that bring him young. I'll tell you, he, he did some impressive things. So you're impressed with them on a, like what they were able to accomplish. Right. And also the Bible tells about by their fruits you'll know them. And so you could see some fruits within Mormonism that were pretty impressive. Like there's no, on some level that church shouldn't exist. I mean, it is pretty miraculous how it actually does, you know, exist and what it was able to accomplish. So there's just so many admirable traits that I saw within Mormons. And I just think that there were things that Joseph did and said that, you know, I don't remember the exact reference. It was, I think it was Martha Beck's book Leaving the Saints. And she relays a story about this young couple that have a Down syndrome baby. And I'm trying to remember the story. I couldn't find the reference. But as I recall, because probably 20 years since I read the book, they have this down syndrome baby and they're devastated. And then Joseph Smith goes to them and says, oh, you don't understand. Your child was one of the most valiant warriors in the, you know, in the pre existence and that you have been given this blessing to take care of him. Well, that's beautiful, you know, because he took what was a real devastating thing to these people and he told them a story. So no, no, this is an honor that you get to have this child because he was one of the most valiant warriors. And well, when I read that, I'm like, that's like he literally helped these people and helped them with their healing and then gave them a meaning and purpose in their lives that was able to do that. Well, in my mind, I think Joseph Smith, this is a revelation from God. He believes it, that this was revealed to him and that he told these people and he gave them comfort. Well, you know, on some level I have to admire that, you know, about him, that he was also able to help heal people or also just, you know, bring peace into their lives and give them a purpose as to why this child was born into their family. So I just think like that, you know, when I read stories like that, I'm just like, man, this, there's a. He was a human being who genuinely did care about people and did try to help them in the way that he thought he could.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] He could be big hearted.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:58] Yeah, yeah. I mean there's just so much about him that I just, I do admire. And again, I mean there's so much, obviously, but on a, on a human level, I think there's, you know, I look at Joseph Smith, I think that as a child he was very similar to me, very spiritually minded. I think that a lot of people think that maybe he wasn't, but I do think that early on he was very spiritually minded. I think that he did have a sincere, I think, born again experience within the context of the first vision. Like, I think that was a born again experience that he had. And so I think that when I read his story, I think there's. There's also a lot of good things about him that I admire and that he did love people and he did care for people. And so there is that part of him that I find extremely admirable and resonates with me in a way that like Charles Taz Russell doesn't, or who founded Job's Witnesses or Brigham Young. Like, I don't have that same connection, but I have that connection With Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] So were you feeling these things in your late 20s?

Steven Pynakker [01:01:03] Yeah. Yeah. After reading some of this stuff about Joseph, I remember telling a minister that story I told about this, you know, and tears got in my eyes telling that story because I just was so touched by it, you know, that he was able to do something to help those people, you know, And I just think that, you know, I don't know, it still touches me. That story still just kind of touches me that he was able to do that for those people.

Guest 2 [01:01:28] Can I ask you a question?

Steven Pynakker [01:01:29] Sure.

Guest 2 [01:01:31] So I also believe that Joseph did many wonderful things and could still be a wonderful person in those spaces. I also believe that he did many things that were not okay in a very huge way. So I'm just wondering how you're able to kind of put those in, in different spaces where you can say, yeah, I'd be his best bud, or, you know, we would. Were similar. I, I personally would not want to say I was similar.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:10] Right.

Guest 2 [01:02:10] To him because of the things that were not done or that were done that were just so wrong.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] Do you mean just so we're not getting out of the timeline? Do you mean when he was in his late 20s, how he was reconciling that? Because I. We can come, we can finish the story with what he views now.

Guest 2 [01:02:32] Yeah. I was just wondering at that time, did you, you know, those things?

Steven Pynakker [01:02:35] Yes.

Guest 2 [01:02:36] And. And if you did, how, how you were able to.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:39] Right.

Guest 2 [01:02:40] Look past them?

Steven Pynakker [01:02:41] Well, partly was because I bought into the narrative and, and actually this was not just a Mormon narrative. A lot of people thought that, oh, you got married at the age of 14 back then that you had young brides, like just in general in society, that this was. And that. And it's not. I mean, you would have people that be like in their early 20s, maybe marrying a 14 year old, that kind of thing. So the idea was, I just kind of thought, well, he was a product of his time. Right. But this is the other thing. And I'll admit that our world is much different than it was when I was researching. And my eyes have been open to things that I didn't even think of. Right. And plus, I'm not a woman. Right. So I didn't really think of, like, I really didn't pay much attention to polygamy because it was, it didn't interest me as other subjects did. Like, I know women are like my mom, like, she, she's very interested in polygamy. So she watched all the Ann Wild interviews and stuff. You know, when I would have them on. And, and I was just kind of. It was a blind spot for me. That was a total blind spot for me. So I admit that. So I, I just thought, he's a dude and he used his position and that's what he, you know, so he. I guess I kind of. I kind of justified it in my mind at the time. I didn't. Wasn't bothered by it. Like, I am bothered by those things now.

Guest 2 [01:03:56] That makes sense.

Losing Faith in Christianity and Exploring Alternatives

John Dehlin [01:03:59] So tell us, take us down two tracks then. So we're. We're in the late 90s now. You're in your 20s. Take us through the two strains of you losing your faith in Christianity. How do you become ultimately an atheist and agnostic? And how does your interest in Mormonism progress in. In the story?

Steven Pynakker [01:04:20] And I think that we're going to have to tell part of the story now because there's going to be some parallel things within my personal life, but I think we could do the atheist thing. So, you know, I guess, you know, you could say that in the year 2000, I was a George W. Bush all the way kind of guy, kind of bought into the whole narrative, even though I had a much more libertarian streak than, like, I was more of a Ron Paul. I mean, Ron Paul was one of my heroes as a kid growing up, you know. Yeah, I loved Ron Paul, so. But I ended up jumping on the Bush train and all this kind of stuff. But then it's really weird. It's like right around the mid 2005, everything just started unraveling. So Katrina happens. That's an unraveling thing. And then Bush just showed that he really wasn't that good of a president. But I didn't really see it. I thought he was doing a good job. And so right around this time, you have a lot of this ascendancy within evangelicalism that's getting very, very aggressive. And in a way that was kind of bothering me, you know, And I also noticed that because I studied so much about the Bible and about a lot, the historicity and all these kind of things. I knew that there were. They were making truth claims that they really didn't know what they were talking about. Right. So I was kind of having this. This issue where, oh, like the long ending of Mark is not in the original version of the Bible. And. And then I still am kind of had it like, like, well, if you take that out now, you're undermining scripture, that type kind of thing, you know, so. So I'm starting to deconstruct my faith On a certain level, you know, by researching and doing things. So I. It definitely had to do with. Because I recognize a lot of things that all the apologetic arguments that I can make in favor of the resurrection or Christianity in general, I was starting to realize I can make all the same apologetic arguments for Mormonism, too. So that made me much more humble in my approach when I realized that. And I had a minister from the Church of Jesus Christ come on and give a. The Pentecostal group. They're not Pentecost. Well, they are. They speak in tongues, but they're based in Monongahela. Penny. I had one of their evangelists come on and give an apologetics using all the evangelical apologetics in favor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He said, I just took it one level and said all those same apologetics and applied it to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. And a stronger case can be made for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as being a tangible, real thing, as a better case can be made than that of the resurrection of Jesus. Now, I knew that years ago, and I told him, and I had him come on. My program said I had you come on because you had to be the one to say it.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] What program?

Steven Pynakker [01:07:02] My program. When I had him come on.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Oh, recently.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:04] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:04] But my point is. But. But that all. But that was all that idea. The apologetic. Apologetic argument that he came up with was something that was in my mind years ago, because it dawned on me, like, wait a second, I can make all the same arguments for Mormonism. So that really started.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:21] And that's what I meant when, before, when I brought up that question about my experience being similar with Jehovah, I started noticing that the same apologetic or the same defenses I could do for Mormons, like, applied for.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:34] I took a circuitous way there. But no, but, yeah, I think absolutely,

John Dehlin [01:07:37] when Mormons today watch going Clear or, you know, the vow or whatever.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Sometimes it makes them start wondering about Joseph Smith.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:46] Yeah. And I do think that, you know, as Christians, we sometimes have to really assess some of our beliefs too, because I do. I do think that there's a lot of things. There is a lot of manipulation. There's a lot of things that go on in our movement as well. So I just try to be much more, you know, I just. So part of me just wants to go to Christians, say, listen, you need to be much more humble in your approach.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] But I mean, just to really put a fine point on it, and this is something we talked to Grant Palmer and Sandra Tanner about the Book of Mormon has historicity problems, but so does the Bible.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:17] And we'll talk about that at the end because that doesn't have to kill the Bible as, as a divine scripture. No, but it does. It does hopefully pull some humility.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:29] Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, I always hated hypocrisy.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:32] So I always made a point to not just try to prove my arguments and not try to disprove my, my own beliefs, because I had, I felt like I needed the integrity to do that. So, like when I would get into bait debates with Jehovah's Witnesses. So, like I hung out with these ex Jehovah's Witnesses. Right. But other Jehovah's Witnesses would try to come and try to bring them back into the fold. You know, see, Joe's Witnesses can drink at bars, so that, that kind of one, one thing in their favor. Right. But they would come and I would get into arguments with these guys. But he was going against the Trinity. Right. Now, I could have easily taken the trinitarian verse in the Book of John, the Johin coma, or whatever it's called where it's very trinitarian, but I never would use that argument because I knew that Erasmus put that in there. It wasn't in the original manuscript, so I could have scored points. Well, here it is. The Trinity is right there. But I also knew that I didn't. So even then, when I was still like apologist type, I still felt like, no, I can't use that argument because I know that this is not in the original manuscript.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] Integrity mattered to you.

Steven Pynakker [01:09:33] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:09:34] Always. I'm like a real white and black. My mom, my, My first grade teacher went to my mom and said, stephen, every. It's. He's very black and white. Like, you tell the truth, you don't lie.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:09:45] You know, so I've always been that way.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] So how'd you, how'd you lose your faith in Christianity? What was the, what were the, what were the steps?

Steven Pynakker [01:09:53] Well, this kind of goes into our.

John Dehlin [01:09:56] Before you regained it. I'll say that.

Steven Pynakker [01:09:59] Well, the problem, if I get too many details now, it kind of is going to cut into like.

John Dehlin [01:10:04] You want to wait?

Steven Pynakker [01:10:05] Yeah. Because. Well, I do think it's important that I established that there were, there were scholarly reasons why I would have had issues with Christianity. And then my personal things that would happen later on would be the final straw that it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily me deconstructing or the scriptures or doing all this kind of stuff. So much as it was a personal. My personal life that kind of intruded on this world and finally made me just walk away and say, forget it. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:31] Okay, so stay tuned to part two of our story of Steven Pinecres life to answer the full question of how he lost his Christian faith. But there were some intellectual components to it.

Steven Pynakker [01:10:44] Absolutely. It was laying the groundwork.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:10:47] Yeah, it definitely played up because like I said, I. I had to study everything. I had to read everything I could. Nothing was forbidden to me. I had to read everything. And so. And so that really opened my eyes to a lot of things.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] Okay, so from the. Take us up through the beginning of COVID in terms of late 90s, early 2000s, to like, how your interest in Mormonism progressed.

Steven Pynakker [01:11:09] So what we can talk about, I think what. So I've suffered clinical depression for most of my life and right around year 2007, 2006, 2007 for like a few. And probably up to. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, a lot of it's a. I have a blank. I mean, I was in a. I had a deep, you know, deep. A dark night of the soul. I had a dark decade of the soul. So I don't remember a lot. But the one thing I will say is that, you know, I really. So even though I studied Mormonism and I grew, had an appreciation for Joseph Smith and all this kind of stuff, I was suffering such bad depression that the. I recognized that the only thing that was keeping my interest was Mormonism in

John Dehlin [01:11:58] life, in life, in staying alive.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:00] Right? Because this is the thing. See, I recognize if I lose interest in everything, then what's the point of a living, Right? That's what happens is basically people get. They get so depressed, they get so down, they just lose interest in everything. But I didn't lose interest in Mormonism. So that really caused me to really throw myself into it and get my hands on every book I could read, check out every book out of the library system that I could read. So I've read so many books that I don't even have copies of because I checked out. I mean, I would literally check out the Encyclopedia of Mormonism for like two weeks, for however long I could do it. Because this was like. I mean, the Internet wasn't as accurate as it was now, so you needed to go to the hard copies, and I would just check out the Encyclopedia of Mormonism just to read, like Wikipedia now. Right. And so I just threw myself into just studying and reading, and it Kept it, really, honestly, the depression, it kept me alive. So in one sense, I tell people, Mormonism saved my life. Right. So that's why, like, when I. You'll never hear me hating on. Hating on. On it. You know, I mean, I'll criticize it. And I do think there's a lot of terrible things that I don't agree with and things that are said and how people are treated. But I owe, I think, in one sense, my life to my study of Mormonism and thus Mormon. I mean, like, you know, like, with my program, I tried to talk to all the products of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, and I talked to everybody. I said, and I was talking to Christopher Thomas about. I said, you know, then it dawned on me. I'm a product of the Restoration as well. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] Love it. So how did you go from, like 10 years of depression studying Mormonism in depth to, like, actually connecting up with Mormon scholars and, you know, Mormon history crowd and Chris Thomas and like, how did you. How did you end up becoming part of the broader MHA community and just Mormon studies? Crowd I mean, in your story, in your timeline.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:01] Yeah. So we could. Yeah, because this would be good. Because I think, because we're going to fill in a lot more stuff, but this is a good place to kind of explain. So basically, I remember in the midst of a deep, dark depression and thinking, you're such an idiot, Steven, why the hell are you studying this Mormon stuff? What good is it? You can't talk to anybody about it. You don't have anybody to talk to. Why I was angry, I was like, you're an idiot for doing all this. And then part of me is like, well, I have no idea why I'm doing this.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] And around what year is this that you're having?

Steven Pynakker [01:14:32] Well, this. This would have probably been probably around 2014, 2015, 16, somewhere in there where I would have had that. Really thought, yeah. And so I thought, I'm such an idiot. Like, I'm studying all. Why am I doing this? Well, of course, partly was it was keeping me alive. Right. So I literally was. A couple years ago, I just started thinking I should do like a YouTube channel. You know, I. I want to do something. So I thought of, like, doing like a low carb channel. And then I was thinking of doing like a channel about. About two or three different ideas that I had. But then that bookcase was staring me in the shelf, my collection. And I thought, you know, I should do book reviews of the books I have in my collection.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] This was years ago.

Steven Pynakker [01:15:12] This Would have been. No. Now, this would have been the fall of 2019, where I got the first idea of doing the channel.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Would you have already been connected with other Mormon scholars at that point? No, you were still. Had you. Had you started listening to Mormon stories?

Steven Pynakker [01:15:32] Well, I've been watching your show and Rick Bennett's show for six or seven years.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] So go back to that of just. Just discovering.

Steven Pynakker [01:15:39] Yeah, you know, it's hard for me to keep the timeline.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] Not because I want to hear about me, just for your story.

Steven Pynakker [01:15:44] Yeah. So let's. Let's talk about that, because that is important. So, like. So, like, probably starting with you, I probably been watching you probably at least since 2, 2013, 2014.

Discovering Mormon Podcasts and Book Reviews

John Dehlin [01:15:55] What would have gotten you interested in a podcast?

Steven Pynakker [01:15:57] Well, I mean, I just liked watching YouTube videos, and I liked watching YouTube videos about Mormonism. And then I came across you, and I just loved all your interviews, especially, like, with the scholar stuff and history stuff. Oh, I just loved it. And then also the stories. You know, I don't watch every episode where you're talking about stories because it's not necessarily relevant to what I want to do. But I. I watch a lot of your stuff and just watched a ton of your stuff. And then I came across Rick Bennett's channel, Gospel Tangents. And so basically every night, I'm not watching TV as much as I'm turning on and watching Mormon stories every night, Watching Gospel Tangents every night. And that. That's my. That's like, these are my TV shows that I'm watching, and I tell tv. Yeah, it really was to me. I mean, I was obsessed with it. I just was obsessed. Binge watching. I'd watch your old stuff and I'd. You know, I couldn't wait for a new episode to come out. And I watched, like, all of Rick's library when I found his channel, and I was just, like, so excited about it. And I tell people, this is the craziest thing, because I've already done a joint production with Rick on Gospel Tangents. And now I'm sitting here and I said, imagine you are you. You love television. You have, like, your favorite television show, Seinfeld fan, and next thing you know, you're on the set of Seinfeld. Like, I'm on the set of Seinfeld, folks. You know, this is what's so crazy to me. It's just to be part to the next thing, you know, like, you're on the TV show that you like to watch, and it's just been wild. So, yeah, it Was like I said earlier too, is like, you helped your channel really helped me better understand the people of, of the movement. I knew all the good, bad and ugly about the history, but then it made it real for me, was your program. So it really fleshed things out for me. So again, I'm watching your program, I'm watching Rick's program. I'm buying the books of authors that you have.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] Name them.

Steven Pynakker [01:17:44] Well, okay, so, okay, let me think. Well, what comes to mind real quick with Rick was I bought Dan Bradley's book, Don Bradley's book. And then later I didn't have him on as a guest, but I bought his book about the lost 116 pages.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:17:58] Yeah. Okay. I'm drawing a blank here because I bought a few books from authors that you've had on Grant Palmer's. Okay, yeah. Well, actually, I loved your Grand Palmer interviews. I actually got the, one of his books, but I ordered one of his later books because of Grant Palmer.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] The Believing Christ.

Steven Pynakker [01:18:13] Yeah, yeah. The Incomparable Christ or whatever. Like, or, yeah, Incomparable Christ and all that.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] So I would have interviewed, so I'll just, I would have interviewed Richard Bushman, I would have interviewed Terrell and Fiona Givens. I would have interviewed Dan Vogel, Greg Prince, Michael Quinn. Right, yeah. Brett Metcalf. Those would have been some of the.

Steven Pynakker [01:18:35] Yeah. And I, I, I, I bought some of those. I couldn't tell you exactly which ones I bought for because of Rick and because of yours, but it doesn't matter. But yeah, I buy. So I'm, so I'm adding to my collection. And, and so like, oh, this is an interesting scholar. That's an interesting author. So I'm just building the, building this collection up. And so, so my book, my collection starts getting bigger and bigger. My bookshelf gets fuller and fuller. But never in a million years would I have then thought about actually doing anything like this until I just thought, you know, maybe this might work. And so it's so funny because it's a little over a year ago

John Dehlin [01:19:09] on

Steven Pynakker [01:19:09] Reddit and I see that the community of Christ is going to have a book club about Joseph Smith III, the founder of the RLDS, their prophet. I read that book 15 years ago. I checked it out of my library. I thought, I'm going to just join this. And next thing you know, I hop into this community of Christ book club with about 100 people every week. There are 100 people in the Zoom call. And I introduced. Hi, I'm your evangelical interloper. Actually, at the time I was saying I'm a recovering evangelical, and I just want to apologize for all the horrible things we did to you people for the last couple hundred years. You know, because really the evangelicals are the main baddies of the Mormonism. Right? Like, we're the. And. And so then they just embraced me. So I thought, well, I might have a thing here with the community of Christ. Right? And so. But I hadn't even talked to a Mormon until the fall of 2019, when I just a few months after, I came up with the idea, yeah, like. Like I had no connection to Mormons other than, like, in passing. Like, I went to Kirtland, Ohio in 2009 and got a personal tour from the mission president and his wife of Kirtland and stuff like that. So I had interactions like that, and then I visited Temple square in the 90s. But other than just superficial interactions, I just met this anonymous kid who had this 40 member Reddit group and. And started talking with him. And I introduced myself and then next thing I know, I'm talking to the community of Christ, which I think, oh, that's cool, because they're kind of like liberal Methodists. I can kind of jive with them. I, you know, they're similar enough. They're basically Protestants now in one sense, you know, and. And then I just thought, oh, I'm gonna. And they got on me. They're like, hey, when are you gonna start doing your book review? So the very last day of the book of the. Of the book club, I said, okay, everybody, I just want to let you know I just released my latest book review. A Pentecostal reads the Book of Mormon. And of course, that would be one of the books that I got via an interview was your interview with him. And so then next thing you know, I'm just, I just start reaching out and I don't know what happens, dude, but next thing you know, I'm talking to just. I'm booking all these guests before I even attended the Mormon History association, before I even met Richard Bushman. I already had Don Bradley lined up. I already had John Hamer lined up. I already had Sandra Tyner lined up to come on the program. Like, 30 subscribers.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] That's awesome.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:28] You came up with a really catchy phrase that I love. An Evangelical encounters the Restoration.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:34] Yes. Mormon book reviews, where Evangelical encounters the Restoration. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:39] So I'll just tell you a quick story and Gerardo, I think you'll laugh at this. So a month or two ago, because my YouTube audience has really grown to like 56,000 subscribers. And I was just. I keep getting. I kept getting comments or emails from people that had never been Mormon. So I. I do a poll on YouTube and I ask what percentage of my audience has never been Mormon? 48%. So basically 50% of my odds. I have to tell you the story. So. So I start, like, slowing things down. I'm like, okay, Gerardo, Cara. You know, everyone, we have to slow down and explain to the Never Mormons all these things. The other day, I got. I got an email from an evermormon. It's like, john, you have to understand it's a tiny bit insulting when you do that, because many of us never Mormons know Mormonism way better than Mormons. I thought, holy crap, they're right. You're one of them, dude.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:32] That's right. And I thought the same thing. Like, why is he explaining everything? He doesn't have to explain. Yeah, I caught on to that.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] It's the Mormons. We got to slow down. Exactly.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:43] And this is the crazy thing, because I. I saw that poll. I saw that poll, and I saw the results, and I was like, oh, I think John just realized that the largest group of Mormons are probably Christians that are watching your program. Right?

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:57] And so. And then within a few days of, I think, of that poll, John's like,

John Dehlin [01:23:01] you're gonna get on my program.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:02] You gotta get on. You know, because you wanted to start broadening your audience. Because if half your audience is people like me, then you need to include every. All the voices. Right. Of your audience, you know, certainly not

John Dehlin [01:23:14] be demeaning or insulting or exclusive of them.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:17] Right?

John Dehlin [01:23:17] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:18] Like, yeah, let's hear some of these people. I mean, I'm. See, that's the thing is, I'm running into these people now. So my channel was primarily like, Community of Christ and then Mormon. And now over the last six, Last three or four months, now I'm hearing from evangelicals, and they're taking a big interest in my channel as well.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] We'll get into that.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:36] Oh, yeah, we will.

John Dehlin [01:23:37] Jen, did you have a. Were you wanting to say so? Okay. All right.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:40] So.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] So where. Gerardo, before we kind of explain what we're going to do next, do you have any final questions for Stephen about his. His early years? Okay. Okay, cool. Well, so, I mean, just to, like, explain where we are, so we wanted to get Stephen to the point where he was no longer believing in God or Jesus. And let's just say in the timeline, that's where he is at the time. He's really, his interest in Mormonism is peaking, and I think it's still going. Yep. And, and that's also at the point where he starts his. Starts to conceptualize starting the Mormon Book Review. So. But, but what I said at the beginning is true. Steven Pineaker knows way more about Mormon history than Gerardo and I and Jen combined. And he's on par, in my view, with. With John Hamer or with, I don't want to say Dan Vogel, but like, I'd say, you know, as much or more than Richard Bushman for sure, if you look at everything, not just Joseph Smith. So we have this really unique opportunity to pick the brain of an independent, never Mormon, who knows more about Mormonism than almost anyone, to ask him his views on various things like how the Book of Mormon was created, how he views Mormon church truth claims, etc. So we're gonna, we're going to pause his personal story and this is by his own request. Okay. We're going to pause his personal story. We're going to dive into how an evangelical encounters Mormon truth claims in Mormon history. We'll even talk about what he loves about Mormonism. Then we're going to come back and tell the second half of his story because the second half of his story is fascinating and it basically is going to answer the question how to, after becoming an atheist and agnostic, which we'll have to. To kind of go back and explain how that happened because he wants to have a teaser. We'll. We'll go back and explain how he lost his faith in Christianity, some other important things about his life, how he regained his faith in Christianity. Right?

Steven Pynakker [01:25:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] And. And then we'll talk about his faith today and specifically how he remains a believer, what he believes in now, and how he remains a believer in the Bible, knowing all the problems with the Bible better than, you know, all of us. And then we'll end with just kind of like where, where you are today. And we'll make sure and give good plugs for your YouTube channel. Is there anything else you want to tell about your. The first half of your story before we end this first part?

Steven Pynakker [01:26:14] Not off the top of my head, other than the fact that in my mind all of this has come very naturally and we can get into this because, like, honestly, I really feel like people have told me this and I'm starting to accept the fact that God has his hand in this, that this is a divine appointment, that we're supposed to be here.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] Oh, you mean not just.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:36] I'm talking about us here. In this room. Like, I believe that God orchestrated this thing. And I just. I mean, I love you so much, John. And I even told you. I don't care if we're not even taping. You know, I just. Having these conversations are very important to me, but I. I do believe that God is. God's hand is behind this.

Guest 2 [01:26:56] All right.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] I think Chris Thomas would agree.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:58] Amen.

John Dehlin [01:27:01] All right, well, this has been super fun. I can't wait to get into it.

Steven Pynakker [01:27:06] This is great. Gerardo.

John Dehlin [01:27:07] This probably wouldn't happen without you, so thanks for coordinating this, and it's been great. Yeah, it's great to have you co pilots it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:13] I'm loving it.

John Dehlin [01:27:14] Yeah. And, Jen, thank you for. Yeah. Being here as well. Okay, everyone, so we're gonna end part one and we're gonna just take a bathroom break and start right up with part two. And it's gonna be Steven Pineaker talking about his view on how the Book of Mormon came to be. Kind of. I don't know if you. Would you call it a secular explanation or would you call it a divine. A diva, Like a combination divine, secular.

Steven Pynakker [01:27:41] Okay, so this is the thing. Is a teaser. Well, it's a teaser. I think what we need to understand is that when I say, how did the Book of Mormon come into being, it would be within the context of me being an atheist.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:27:52] So I would have completely deconstructed the Bible, completely deconstructed the Book of Mormon. And so this would be from a naturalistic. Like, if there's no God and there's no supernatural and everything's natural, this is how I think it happened.

John Dehlin [01:28:04] All right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:05] Love it.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:06] I love it.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:07] All right.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. And don't go away. Come right. If. If we're live streaming, it'll probably be the next day. Maybe. I don't know. We'll figure that out. But regardless, if you're. If you're just on binge watching on YouTube or Spotify or Apple podcast, just please don't go away. Come right Back for part two with Steven Pinegar, host of Mormon Book Reviews, YouTube channel and podcast.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:32] Yeah. An evangelical encounter is the restoration.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] All right, all right, everyone. Thanks so much. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Origins of the Book of Mormon: Context and Setting

Part 2 of 5 · Ep. 1571

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 23, 2022, and we are here in studio for two full days with Steven Pinecker, a name that many of you won't know yet, but you will soon. Steven Pinecker is the host of a podcast and YouTube channel called Mormon Book Reviews. And we just spent a good hour, hour and a half hearing about how someone raised in Chicagoland area as an evangelical Christian, charismatic. Charismatic. Is evangelical not the right word?

Steven Pynakker [00:00:34] No, evangelicals is a broad enough term. I think that makes it work.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Why would a charismatic Christian raised in the 70s and 80s in Chicagoland become so obsessed with Mormonism that he's read ten times the Mormon books that I have and knows more than me, Gerardo and Jen combined, and is one of the, I think is one of the most knowledgeable people alive on Mormon history. Gerardo, is that fair to say?

Steven Pynakker [00:01:01] Probably, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] I hope you're not embarrassed by that claim.

Steven Pynakker [00:01:05] It's. I don't. I know there are people who know a lot about Mormonism and it's, it's very weird to hear you of all people say that. But it was weird to. Once I started talking to people, I didn't know how much I knew until I started talking to people and I realized, oh, I know a lot. So I, I thank you for the kind words.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Yeah, yeah. Well, you've heard it. So what we're going to do in this part two of our, I don't know, five, six part series with you, this is going to probably even freak you out a little bit more. For me, this opportunity right now, this episode is as significant as the Michael Koh interview and as the Robert Ridner interview. In this sense. How often do we get a real, I don't want to say scholar, Stephen, because you have it published, but in terms of somebody that is like really done the work to learn and think about deeply these issues, who is external, has never been Mormon and has no ax to grind per se, and who actually loves the restoration tradition and even in the last episode has a real love for Joseph Smith and definitely love for Mormons and Mormonism. Like, how often do we get someone who is willing to. For political reasons? And when I say political reasons, I mean socially political reasons. Who isn't concerned about what will the MHA crowd think? Or what, what will my buddies in the Mormon studies crowd think? Or how might this affect my ability to win some award at some conference? Who can just honestly give a candid assessment of the history independently, with as much depth as Stephen can. So from that perspective, I don't know that we'll ever get a more knowledgeable never Mormon to opine on the question of how the Book of Mormon was created. And that's what I want to do for this part, too. If there are others of you out there, if there are other never Mormons out there that want to compete with Stephen for the title of the. Of the sort of, like, most knowledgeable never Mormon to give their theory on how the Book of Mormon was created, I'm. I'm opening up that invitation right now. Automatic interview. You're in. I want to hear you. You give your own opinion. But this may be the best chance we ever get at an outsider's view of how the Book of Mormon was created. Gerardo, do you validate that buildup?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:30] I love it.

Steven Pynakker [00:03:30] Y Y Y.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] That's why you wanted to do this interview, right? At least one of the reasons.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:35] The Book of Mormon is very important for a lot of people. Right. And for Mormons, even people questioning their faith, a lot of the times, that's what holds a lot of people in the church, because the Book of Mormon, they still believe in it. It's really hard to get past it. So, I mean, like Jeffrey Hahn said, you have to crawl around it.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Under, over or around it. You have to crawl under, over, around it. No, but Gordon B. Hinckley said it's the keystone of our religion, Right. That. That either, you know, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are everything they claim to be, or it's the biggest fraud ever perpetrated. Like, that's Mormon church leaders that have been. That have kind of created that expectation or dichotomy.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] And I think it's true. Even Richard Bushman would agree that if the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be, the church isn't true. And even the point of this episode isn't to prove the Mormon Church false.

Guest 3 [00:04:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] And I. I know that you, Stephen, wouldn't want to, like, stray into that category. It's just. So we'll start it out this way. We talked about how you were raised as a charismatic Christian, but then at some point, you lost your faith in Christianity and became, as you would have described it, an atheist or an agnostic. And then during that time, you did it, you know, 10, 20 years of deep study of Mormonism. So this would have been your secular explanation of the creation of the Book of Mormonism as you would have assembled it prior to you regaining Faith in Christianity.

Steven Pynakker [00:05:02] Yeah. So I mean, first of all, I think you undersold it. I'm just joking. I think I want to appreciate the kind words. But I just. There are. I mean, I've read a lot of papers, I've read a lot of books. So I mean, a lot of what I'm doing is kind of just taking from other people's research, but also in my mind trying to think of different ways that I think that Joseph in a naturalistic explanation. So, so I, I like to. I wear different hats. So sometimes I wear a supernatural hat, a believer's hat, and other times I wear a skeptic's hat. And I think that's the best way to pursue things. Like, like even with me, like with what I think, like when I we finished part one, how I said, I believe we have a divine appointment, right? Or there's God. There's also that secular part of me that could says, well, Steven, there's other reasons that were brought here that could be easily naturalistically explained. Right. So I acknowledge that. So I just want to say that's how I think. So this is not a bashing of the Book of Mormon or anything like that. It's just like, okay, if I'm purely secular, I'm an anthropologist or whatever, and I just trying to study religion from the outside. How does this religion come into being? Right. And how does a book like the scripture, like the Book of Mormon come to being? So just want to get that out of the way.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] All right. Okay. So I want to kind of follow a timeline and I definitely think we need to. I think we need to understand or hear from you about Joseph Smith's family of origin and kind of the treasure digging stuff. How could we explain the Book of Mormon without talking about those two things? But even prior to that, there's the creation of the Bible and the mound builder myth that would have predated Joseph's own parents. So where do you want to begin in the history of civilization to begin your explanation of how the Book of Mormon came to be?

Steven Pynakker [00:06:49] Well, I mean, I guess we could start with, it counts for something that Joseph Smith comes from pilgrim stock and not Puritan stock. The Puritans were more about getting the doctrine right. And the pilgrims are much more experimental and innovative in how they viewed their Christianity. So that is kind of the world that, that's the tradition that Joseph came out of. And so it was less doctrinaire and it was more experimental. And we need to understand that leading up to Joseph Smith, the idea of Modern prophets in our times was, was ideas that predate Joseph by hundreds of years, that these were ideas that were in, in this world all along. And so that's significant. Right. So like a Calvinist would say he's the reason why he's strayed is that he was not grounded in solid biblical doctrine.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:43] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:07:43] Because of where he came from. And so there's a few other things too. Like one of the things I like to talk about how within rural communities in general you would have, of course we all know about this magical worldview, right. The idea that superstition and that there's spirits and all these things, this is all part of that world. And you could be a Christian and also believe these things as well. And I always tell people my grandfather was raised in the prairies of Canada in the 1920s, so about 100 years after Joseph Smith. It was the frontier. And it was a very similar world that Joseph grew up in. And they were, even though they were doctrinaire Calvinist Christians, they still had superstitious practices. They used dowsing rods, they used the astrology, astrological calendars for planting. And so within a rural Christian context, this magical worldview made it well into the 20th century. Okay. So I think it's important that we establish that the pilgrim stock, the idea that there could be new modern prophets, modern revelation were all there. And then we can't forget about also the woodscrape incident where Joseph Smith's father, Senior Joseph Smith Sr. And I believe Oliver Cowdery's father may have been out in a group of that believed in temple rituals as well as an ancient setting for Indians and stuff. So this is even within the, the family lore of an ancient kind of a mystical, like a tying in of ancient American Indians with having like a prehistory, a history of them. So this, so this is even before Joseph was born. That was part of the family.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] I don't think my listeners will know the basics of the woodscrape, even just the high level basics of the woodscrape instant.

Steven Pynakker [00:09:32] It was kind of like. Well, I know you had on Kimball's relative. She has. Oh no, I remember she had a Greek last name. She, she wrote that book, Kathleen Melanakis. Yes, about the early. That's another book. I bought that from your show. And she kind of gives a very interesting idea that. And I don't buy into it entirely, but she talks about how basically you have these counterfeit rings that were going on and it involved taking oaths, making secret oaths with each other and counterfeiting and, and kind of having a cover story for your counterfeiting operation. So they kind of. And I'm trying to remember the exact story about the Woodscrape incident because it's fascinating because it's only mentioned briefly in the burned over district book that came out. And I forget who wrote that, but it was like in the 1960s. So there isn't a whole lot out there about it, but there's a lot of speculation. But it had to tie in with ancient American Indians and temple rituals and oaths. That's the best from the top of my memory. That's there. But that seems to be, you know, predates Joseph and obviously there's some familiar sounding things there. Right. That we're hearing, you know, before Joseph is even born. And then we also have actually an incident of a relative in Michigan of Joseph's finding a lost hidden document that was a counterfeit that proclaimed. Said that it was of an ancient lineage as well. So you kind of see things coming together. And then of course then have the mound builder myth, which was what mainstream, many mainstream Christians believed at the time as well. So this is just. There's so much going on already that can almost kind of pre. Figures or can kind of almost anticipate the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] And it's almost ingredients in the soup.

Steven Pynakker [00:11:20] It's all ingredients.

Mound Builder Myth, Lost Tribes, and Frontier Religion

John Dehlin [00:11:21] So talk about the mound builder myth and how it would have been an important setting or context or ingredient in the soup.

Steven Pynakker [00:11:29] Right. I mean, this is. I mean probably a lot of you already kind of know the story, but let's just kind of give like a brief idea about it. So the idea was, is that how did these people get to the New World? The Bible doesn't talk about them.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Meaning the Native Americans.

Steven Pynakker [00:11:43] Native Americans, yeah. Right. And this very much perplexed people because you have the known world and the Bible doesn't acknowledge that there's another world. As a matter of fact, it hardly acknowledges anything outside of the Roman Empire really within a New Testament context and just the Middle east and bits and pieces in the Old Testament. So the world was much smaller in the Bible. Right. So when you find this, you go to the New World and you find these peoples, you have to help come up with an explanation. And so we have the story of know that the 10 lost tribes, lost tribes being taken into captivity. Right. And then they're lost to history. So it's a story that, okay, the Bible is like almost as asking for an explanation as to what happened to these people. Right. So then you have, like, a lot of theories, like the British, Israeli, this came a little later. But the idea that, you know, that the Europeans were the ten lost tribes of Israel, this would be a little before, after Joseph's time. But then when they came to the new world, they started encountering these civilizations, these mounds, and they also started encountering the Native Americans who were not building these mounds, at least. Actually, Dan Vogel tells us that Joseph, that Thomas Jefferson, witnessed firsthand them burying bodies in mounds even in his time. So apparently they were still being somewhere, at least still being used. But the general idea was that these were remnants of a lost civilization. And the idea that these people, the natives, you know, the Indians, as they would call them, had anything to do with this just didn't seem like that would make any sense. It just didn't. Didn't jive with them. So they just assumed that it had to be an advanced civilization that built those mounds.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] It wasn't it. At least partly, there was some guilt and shame that they were killing and displacing Native Americans. And you can't respect and love and admire people that you're potentially committing genocide upon. And so you have to not, you know, when you, when you're seeing some beautiful civilization relics, you don't want to attribute great art and great civilization and great intellectual capacity to a bunch of people you're displacing and. Or killing. Isn't that, isn't that there's some racist element to it?

Steven Pynakker [00:13:59] There is, and there's also, the fact is, is that if you have buildings, you have land and you have a land claim, so you have to separate them from those land claims. Right. And so that's why they had to separate them from the story, from the narrative, because you, if you built structures, if you built buildings, you own property, that's a land claim. And, you know, within the Western mindset. So they had to separate them from that. It was. It was imperative. So, so then you.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] And where does the white. White and dark skin in the mound builder myth come into play with the, with the lost 10 tribes and that sort of deal?

Steven Pynakker [00:14:36] Yeah, so I think that. I think that the idea was, is they looked at the Native Americans and they kind of had racist ideas about people with darker skin aren't capable of building these civilizations. They felt the same about Africans and just about anybody that wasn't white. And so they were inferior.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] So

Steven Pynakker [00:14:58] if you separate the Native American population from the mounds, then you have a history that needs to be told. Right. And you have a book that purports to tell the history of the world or the universe. Right. And that's the Bible. So this was a society that was very much steeped in the knowledge of the Bible and their history. And everything was informed with a biblical worldview and a very literalistic view of the world. Right. So everybody back then basically believed in a literal, flawed, that the Earth was relatively young and you have to account for people, you know, where did they end up going and stuff like that. So you actually have two schools of thought here. Right. So you have two lost civilizations. You could talk about almost dispersal of the populations with the. During the Tower of Babel. Right. And the idea in that is, is that, you know, people spread throughout the world.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:55] Were people talking about that idea about the Tower of Babel?

Steven Pynakker [00:16:00] Oh, yeah, within a look. People talk about that in biblical literalist circles to this day. They believe that the Tower of Babel is literal history and that all the languages come from that. There are people that believe this right to this day.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:15] I only bring that up because. And I'm not going to try to bash or even ask you to answer to them, but apologists try to say, oh, when we talk about, when critics talk about the Mount builder myth, they don't realize how it has nothing, that the 10 tribes has nothing to do with the Tower of Babel. So Tower of Babel and Jaredites are such an original idea that could have nothing to do with what people were talking about back then. But you're saying no, actually people, Christians would have been thinking about Tar Babel,

John Dehlin [00:16:51] this groups in the early 1800s.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:54] I think he says, yeah, no doubt about it. Because the Bible tells you that the peopling of the earth and the dispersal of the populations all happened as a result. So it only stands the reason that some of those people would have made their way to the new world. That would have been one explanation using the Bible, how they got there.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Because how else would languages have developed?

Steven Pynakker [00:17:14] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] And that's what I actually believed as a Mormon kid growing up is we got languages. And as a result of the Tower of Babel.

Steven Pynakker [00:17:21] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] Jen's nodding.

Guest 3 [00:17:23] I did too. I did too.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Okay, so if we're, if I was learning this in the 1980s, certainly they were thinking about it in the 1820s.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:32] Oh, absolutely.

Steven Pynakker [00:17:33] And I was taught this too.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So again, where does white skin come into the Ten tribes mound builder myth? Where, where, how would, how would 18th or 19th century, you know, Americans.

Steven Pynakker [00:17:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Have brought in a white skin, introduced white skin into the mound builder myth? What's the logical.

Steven Pynakker [00:17:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Where the dots they would connect.

Steven Pynakker [00:18:00] Well, I mean we got to talk about there are a lot of the doctrines that were taught and were still taught in southern churches up until the 1960s and they're still sought in churches is the curse of ham.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:10] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:18:10] Also the idea that all the sons of Noah were the progenitors of the various races. And it's almost like it kind of now this is actually not in the Bible. This is really 19th century theory of like where did people come from, where did the races come from? And like that. And so it just appears that it becomes self evident to western white Christian people that they're at the pinnacle of civilization. Right. So it only stands to reason that great civilizations are for the most part going to be built by white people. That's how they viewed it. But they also believed that that was God's ordained way it's supposed to go.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:57] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:18:57] That's kind of how he ordered things to be. That we as white people are at the pinnacle, we're at the top, therefore we have God's favorite. And therefore if there's great mighty civilizations to be built, it's going to be us. But also within the Christian context is this idea that if people turn wicked, their civilizations would collapse. And so the Old Testament is replete with these examples of God punishing the Israelis and you know, the Hebrews and everything like that through outside, you know, bad guys, evil people, even destroying them. So you have like a society that's God has God's favor and everybody looks around and they're all white and we have God's favor. So it only stands the reason the people that aren't white don't have God's favor and aren't capable of building the civilizations that white people can build. I just think that is so obvious to everybody at that time. That's how they saw the world.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Plus they're literally slaveholders of Africans and

Steven Pynakker [00:19:53] cursed be ham, you will be the slave of slaves. That's justification.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:58] I have a question. So you mentioned that Europeans at that time, the pilgrims, would believe that they were as white people, they would be part of maybe the lost ten tribes of Israel.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:09] No, that would be a theory that developed later on that was called British Israelism and that would have been best known through Worldwide Church of God, that group that really promoted it, but that has a foundation. Plus like white area nation groups, they believe that kind of stuff too in the modern 20th century, believe that Europeans are the 10 lost tribes. That's the more likely explanation for the lost 10 tribes would have been more of that they found the lost 10 tribes or that the civilization that built the mounds was the 10 lost tribes,

John Dehlin [00:20:39] you know, so basically, whenever the Kingdom of David or what got divided, where the two tribes got abducted into slavery or whatever, and the ten tribes, Northern tribes. Right, yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:51] Ten northern tribes got abducted. And then you had the two tribe. The two southern tribes know, we're the only remaining like, okay, sorry. That's the nar. The narrative of Judaism after that is. Is the. It's the two southern kingdoms.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] So around what year would the 10 tribes have been?

Steven Pynakker [00:21:07] You know, off the top of my head, I could.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] I couldn't get thousand years before Jesus or something.

Steven Pynakker [00:21:11] I mean. Yeah, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Okay, so they would have. Where did they go? And so the mountain builder myth would have been that some of those people who were. I guess, were they thinking that. That Israelis would have been white.

Steven Pynakker [00:21:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] Pre Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [00:21:24] Yeah. Well, just look at all the paintings, all the art in Europe now.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] But just as. Would they have been, like, I'm asking you now, would Israelis back then have been white?

Steven Pynakker [00:21:35] No, of course not.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] I was just. They would have been what?

Steven Pynakker [00:21:38] Well, they would have been Middle Eastern. I mean, they would have been, you know, like.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Like modern Arabs, basically.

Steven Pynakker [00:21:45] Yeah. I mean. I mean, we can look at. There are Jews that are very quite complected as well, you know, modern Judaism. But I mean. Yeah, I mean, there would have probably been some that would have been lighter skin, but generally speaking, like, they would have probably had dark hair. They wouldn't have had blonde hair. The Bible makes a note of one of King David's sons having blonde hair and that he was the most fairest one of them, you know, and his name escapes me, but either way. So it seemed to be like a rare thing, you know, so it wouldn't have been like white people. It would have been basic Middle Eastern people for the most.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Brown skin, dark eyes, black hair.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] And Jesus would have fit that absolutely description.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] But somehow, because it's. It's white people trying to make sense of the world with the biblical worldview in the 17 and 1800s, then it's got to be white people. So the 10 tribes are white people. And somehow some of those 10 tribes made their way over to America. So would the mound builder myth have tried to speculate how the.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:42] The.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:42] The.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] The white 10 tribes, how some of them would have made it to America? Would they have even tried to speculate, like, would it have been through boat? Would it have been through the Bering Strait? Like had, had they thought that part through the Mount Builder myth?

Steven Pynakker [00:22:56] You know, that's a very good question. I, I don't know if they developed. That's a very good question. I should look into that.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] But I think view of the Hebrews had boats, right?

Steven Pynakker [00:23:03] Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, so that would have been, yeah, view of the Hebrews would have been an example of that. Yeah. And it's, it's hard to say because I think that I, I, I imagine some would have thought of like a land bridge landing as well. I mean, I think that you could look at a map and see things connecting. I think some would have gone that direction as well. But yeah, and really this is the key thing, and this is why I think is important too is that specifically at this time the 10 lost tribes were thought to be the mound builders in the upper Midwest. They weren't taking them into account for Mesoamerica or any of the populations in, in, in the south. Essentially the lost 10 tribes all landed in North America. That was the general consensus at the time. There wasn't a whole lot out there about the other stuff.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] And people who believe the Mount Builder myth would have believed that they arrived in North America white, that they were basically Jewish and that they would have built these amazing civilizations. But then some would have somehow dark skinned people would have, Would the mound builder myth have had a theory about how the dark skinned people emerged? Would they have come in through other means and just intermingled? Or would there have been a cursing of skin?

Steven Pynakker [00:24:13] No, there wouldn't have been a cursing of skin. I think the, the general idea is that they built this civilization and maybe at a later time a darker skinned group would have come in and wiped them out, which would be the Native Americans. I think that they, that would have been kind of like almost like a genocide. That would have been the thought then that that's, that's, that they, these people here, that they see the Native Americans, they're the ones that killed the white people that built these. I think that would have been the general idea of what, how they would have seen things then. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] And what's your confidence level that like Joseph Smith Senior and Lucy and even Hiram and Joseph Smith would have had exposure to the mound builder myth as a way to inform whatever came later.

Steven Pynakker [00:24:53] I mean, you have mounds all over the place. So stories are going to pop up about them and speculation is going to pop up about them all the time. And so like they saw Hill, Cumorah, they thought that was an Indian mound. You know, they didn't know what a drum line was, you know, so. Yeah, that would have been so part of. Woven in. And we got, we got books from the 1600s that talk about the 10 lost tribes and the mounds specifically. It was, it was very much centered in the United States, very much within the 13 colonies. And, you know, because a lot of, a lot of those other civilizations weren't even known, you know, like in mesoamerica in the 1600s, you know, there was very little knowledge about those things. So the, the whole. So basically the idea of the ten lost tribes springs forth directly from the mounds of North America. That's what makes it so unique. It's a story about those mounds built by those people.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] Okay. All right. And then we've got, I guess it, you know, when you think about who the. Who is. The Campbellite.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] What's his name? The.

Steven Pynakker [00:26:00] Sidney Rigden was influenced by Alexander Campbell.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] When you think about Alexander Campbell's first review of the Book of Mormon, do you remember what he said?

Steven Pynakker [00:26:07] Yeah. It covers all the major disputations and everything of our society and it gives us the origin of the Native Americans and answers all the theological questions of the time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] So to give someone just a brief history. So like, to provide some more important context. And now I feel like I'm almost channeling Grant Palmer, but. But what would have been the religious or the Christian context that Joseph's parents and Joseph would have been swimming in, that would have set, again, set some of the groundwork for the Book of Mormon to want to come forward.

Steven Pynakker [00:26:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] So you're just repeating what you just said, but maybe slowing down a tiny bit.

Steven Pynakker [00:26:44] Yeah. So I think what's happening is first of all, within American society. We're still a very young republic. And you have the rise of deism, you have the works of Thomas Paine, which kind of introduced. It's almost like a proto atheism. Right. Rising. So you have a real challenge to Christianity. Right. That's going on in the Bible, the authority of the Bible and all these kind of things. So these are, these are kind of things that are happening. And then you also have all these questions that the Bible isn't answering. So people are like, how did these people. I mean, it was this very big time theological thing about these people are here. How. And God has to give them an opportunity to hear the gospel. I mean, how could you isolate these people? And no way a Christian missionary could have made their way here until we got here. So it just called out for an explanation. And then at the same time we're having what is called the Second Great Awakening, which is a response to deism and the undermining of the Bible. It's kind of saying, like, the reason why we fell off is that we got so rigid in our. We lost our. We lost the spark of the Holy Spirit. We don't have the events that happen in the Bible going on anymore. And we've just made Christianity into these just very stoic religions. It's just very cold and it's not participatory. It's just. It's becoming less relevant to people. People are not interested in going to church anymore because it's very boring. And you have just these, these challenges going on.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Well, we're getting the Catholic Church and views on the Catholicism. Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:28:26] Oh, well.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Which also make their way into the Book of Mormon.

Guest 3 [00:28:28] Right?

Steven Pynakker [00:28:29] Yeah. So the. Yeah. I mean, this was, of course, was a very anti Catholic country, a very still, very Protestant. They would have been very anti Papists. And the reason why they would have been is because all of them basically are Papist for the most part. I mean, you know, within the context we're talking about, they would have all been Protestants who would have all probably would have affirmed that the Pope is the Antichrist at this time and that

John Dehlin [00:28:49] the Catholic Church is the whore of all the earth.

Steven Pynakker [00:28:51] Absolutely. They, they look at, they looked at those books in the Book of Revelation talking about the whore of Babylon and most of them, and even the Reformers thought that that was the Catholic Church that was talking about. No doubt about it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Yeah. So all. So lots of, you know, and, and about authority about which church is true.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Right. And because you've got the. All these Protestant den. Denominations, but they're battling with each other.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:13] Yes, right.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] About authority about. Right, about. About baptism, about confirmation, about priesthood lineage.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:22] Yes. And that's huge because in modern day Protestantism, we don't have that anymore. For the most part. You could just go down to any church, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Lutheran, Presbyterian and Methodist.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:34] You might get a little ribbing from the family. Oh, now you're a Methodist, you know, but nobody would really bother you about it. Right. So the. So yeah, so this is the thing. Like back then it was really important which church you belong to. So they, a Presbyterian would have said, well, if you get that Methodist baptism, you're going to hell. Like, this is the kind of language that they were talking about at the time. So you had this really extreme sectarianism going on as well. And I think that's probably also what helped lead to the second Great Awakening because you had this recognition that this denominator, denominationism is, is causing all these problems. And what we need to do is get back to the church of Acts, to the first century and restore the church back to its original purpose and foundation. That the church has become so corrupted and that because of these sectarian battles that are going on that we just need a clean slate, start all over again and use the Book of Acts as our guide to build a church. And this is what the second Great Awakening in many was, was all about. Let's get back to the Bible. Let's. Deeds, not creeds. That was one of their more popular things that they had. We need to get back to the Bible and you get back to the first century and you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And this is where the revivalism comes in. And all these things, they come out of these Protestant denominations. Like you had the Stone Campbellite movement, say Barton Stone, you had Alexander Campbell. One was a Baptist minister, one was a Presbyterian minister. They both had the recognition that they. Something was very wrong in the church and that there need to be a restoration. They used the term restoration in their, in their language. So that's, that's really the world. That's, that's the world Joseph's in.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] And, and I just want to repeat what you just said. Like you, you like to refer to kind of all the different branches of Mormonism as the restoration tradition.

Steven Pynakker [00:31:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] But. But the rest. But the actual restoration tradition predates Joseph Smith as its own non Mormon related strain or impulse. Yes, correct.

Steven Pynakker [00:31:43] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] And so if you would have gone around in 1820, 1825 and, and mentioned restorationism or whatever, what would people have thought of?

Steven Pynakker [00:31:51] They would have thought of that movement that was going on. I mean, Campbell. Yep, yep. That would have been all right. And that. And, and they were using the term restoration.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:58] Well, I think the Seventh Day Adventists are really similar of the timeline.

Steven Pynakker [00:32:01] Well, Seventh Day Adventists come about in the 1840s a little later. So it's. But if they use restoration, all the 19th century sects that come out all use restorationist language.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] And that predate. I just want to make sure it predates Mormonism.

Steven Pynakker [00:32:15] So predates and post dates it.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay. And that's important. I think that's really important because even when we were, when we're reading about DNC 132 just with Sandra Tanner, the justification in there is well, we got to have a restoration of all things.

Steven Pynakker [00:32:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] But that's not necessarily coming from God or Joseph. That's the, that's the history. That's the context they're swimming in. Is that right?

Steven Pynakker [00:32:39] It's the context of swimming. But see, Joseph takes it in a

John Dehlin [00:32:44] much different direction because he means Old Testament too.

Steven Pynakker [00:32:48] Yeah, like he's, he's like taking the restoration. Again, this is naturalistic explanation he's taking and just running with things in such a unique, I'd say ingenious way. I mean the guy's a religious genius, you know. And so yeah, the idea, I mean, yeah, we could get into the masonry and all that kind of stuff too because they were going to restore true masonry and that is in relation to the Book of Mormon as well. So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:12] Yeah, but at the time Joseph is growing up, I think masonry was being looked down.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Okay, that's the next place I was going to go.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:21] Yeah, we could talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] And so that. Yeah, that's great. Grant Palmer again, we're channeling Grant Palmer because when you. So we've, so before we jump there. Yeah, yeah. So we've just explained so far from the Book of Mormon, the Lamanite, Nephite question, all the stuff about the blood of Israel and God's chosen people, all of that part of the Book of Mormon. We've just explained, we've just explained the light and the dark skin. We've just explained why, why the light skinned people get killed off in the end. We just explained the Tower of Babel which explains the Jaredites. Right. We've just. Okay. And we just talked about restorationism and sectarianism and this is again chailing Grant Palmer. We're now explaining a lot of the. Why are there Protestant sermons appearing in the Book of Mormon that are supposed to be predating even the birth of Jesus Christ? And yet you've got Protestant sermons in the Book of Morm and that are talking about things like infant baptism and authority and like, like Grant Palmer would, would have been the first to call my attention to the idea that Joseph Smith was hearing these sermons in the burnt over district and sort of bringing that type of theology into the Book of Mormon. Is that.

Campbellite Influence and the Restoration Tradition

Steven Pynakker [00:34:37] Yeah, so I would say that I think first of all, and again I'm, I, I'm, I have got great friends who are faithful Mormons and I'm just talking as a man, if you will, just kind of, I think that not only was Joseph hearing the sermons, I also think that he was, he was engaging Jonathan Edwards in particular. Now many of the people who are giving sermons were Also parroting Jonathan Edwards, but a lot of Jonathan. So my friend Jonathan Neville wrote the book. Jonathan Edwards, Infinite Goodness, Jonathan Edwards, Joseph Smith, Jonathan Edwards in the Book of Mormon and John and Jonathan Neville, who you should have on, is a orthodox true blue Mormon. And he did a Google search of the words that are in the Book of Mormon that are not in the Bible. And this is, he's just a layperson, he's a lawyer by training, but he does this word analysis and discovers that there are so many phrases and words that are not in the Bible but are in the Book of Mormon. And he kept on coming back to Jonathan Edwards in particular. Now, Jonathan Edwards was very famous 18th century theologian, pastor, the Sinners in the Hands of the Angry God was like the most popular, the most most important sermons ever given in this country. That's what he's best known for.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:54] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:55] So he on his own came across this phraseology, the natural man is an enemy to God is not in the Bible. But Jonathan Edwards uses that phrase. Okay, so I'm, I, so, so I think Jonathan Everest plays an outsized influence in the formation of the Book of Mormon. Now this is the thing. If Joseph Smith is a conventional translator, that's fine, right? If it's, if it's showing up on the seer stone, maybe that's a little bit of an issue. Right. But, but if he's using modern 19th century understanding and language while he's translating the plates, it's, it's, you can, in other words, you can be a faithful Mormon and still accept Jonathan Edwards in there. But if you're a naturalist, he's saying, well, it's obvious he's disp, you know, Jonathan Edwards stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:40] And we know he for a fact that he, Joseph is really good at borrowing other preachers, other theologians, ideas and incorporating them into his own theology. We know that because of his translation of the Bible where he's using almost exact concepts as Adam Clark.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Including in the judgment translation.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:07] Jst. Right, Exactly. Yeah, we know that he is capable of doing it. And this is the thing.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Not capable. Skill that.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:15] So another thing I just had John Hamer on and we're doing a three part series about the early history of the church. And one of the things he brought up, and this is where he said, as evangelical Protestants, you should really take the Book of Mormon very seriously because it actually has this unique thing that it actually has transcribed 19th century revival sermons which weren't transcribed because they were just speaking from the heart. And you actually have a historical record of 19th century sermons in the Book of Mormon. So that's what I find so fascinating too. It's like he actually is like having a recording. I had my mom read King Benjamin's sermon the other day because I told. I told my mom, I said, your mother would have loved King James, King Benjamin's sermon, because she would have agreed with so much of the doctrine and what he taught in there. And so, so that, to me, that. That's what actually makes the Book of Mormon accessible to evangelicals and Protestants as well, you know, in that regard. So it's, it's. It is part of our heritage in one sense as well.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] Yeah. Okay. Two more things. So Gerardo mentioned the fascination with. With the Masons and the Morgan affair.

Steven Pynakker [00:38:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Which. Which Grant Palmer wanted to sort of tie. And probably he didn't. He probably got this idea from someone else. But the. All the secret combinations fascination in the Book of Mormon, he wants to tie that to the fascination with the Masons at the time.

Steven Pynakker [00:38:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Do you see a connection there?

Steven Pynakker [00:38:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] So do you want to explain it?

Steven Pynakker [00:38:47] Yeah. Because I think though, first of all, Western New York was ground zero for the anti Mason party. Right. And at this time, people don't realize that the anti Mason party was like a huge successful party. Elected members to Congress and to the governorships. I mean, it was a force to be reckoned with. And this is all in response to a gentleman who wrote an expose on secret temple ceremonies that the Masons were doing named William Morgan. And allegedly his body was tossed in the Lake Ontario and it was recovered. And the idea was, is that they take these vows in the temple that if you divulge what goes on here, that the penalty is death. Right. And so it was understood then that, okay, this is real, they will kill you. And we have politicians and governors and judges that have taken these oaths. And if they all have taken a vow to support each other and to not go against the other because they took these oaths, then you can't get a fair trial if you have a Masonic judge. Andrew Jackson was a Mason. So that's also fueled a lot of what was going on. So this was a very much a big explosive movement that was happening. And it really shook up the political world for. For a period of time there. And it in all the lot, basically, like 90% of the lodges shut down. It devastated Masonry. And the idea was, is that you have these groups of people taking secret oaths and establishing. And they use the term secret combinations as a term that was used to describe Freemasonry. And of course this phraseology that's very familiar to readers of the Book of Mormon and there have been some speculation that Mormon was named after William Morgan. Right. That there was that that's where the name Mormon comes from is it was. That was an influence on Joseph Morgan. Was Mormon's named after William Morgan? So yeah, it's like as an outsider and you're looking at the history of Jacksonian, the Jacksonian world and you're familiar with all this stuff that's going on and then all of a sudden you have things that would be descriptive of aspects of Masonry making itself into the Book of Mormon. And we even have later where you know, Kane Slable and he says I'm Master Mahan, you know, as a, as in Master Mason, you know, it rhymes with that. So, and, and it all seems like, like even just like the term Master Mahan, it implies by the author, if you will, that there was a, a, that that was the original term was Mahan. But then it gets it, it. I'm trying to think of the word corrupted into a different word Mason. Right. You know, it's almost like so we got to restore a lot of the original lingo and all this kind of stuff. So the Book of Mormon when it was first published was referred to as the anti Masonic Bible. So yeah, if you read it then and you were reading the script, you would say, oh yeah, okay, I get this. Like it's. They would, they would understand what was being said there. And this is the other thing that people need to understand that people believed and Masons believed the narrative that Masons taught, that they can trace their lineage all the way to the building of King Solomon's Temple, that it's a alternative history, a secret history of mankind. They believed it to be true. Right. So these ideas that they were talking about, these, these were held that we, our roots go all the way back to Solomon. And this is, and so this, so we have this unbroken line of these secret people passing along this secret knowledge up into the 19th century. And this is what was believed by Masons at that time as well.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] Love it. Okay, we have a couple more influences. So we also have, we also have Joseph Smith's own family dynamics, including his father as a. And again, this is from Grant Palmer as a significant influence. Do you want to talk about that really quick?

Steven Pynakker [00:43:00] Yeah. So first of all, Joseph Smith Sr. Kind of was, he was his own man. Right. And so he didn't really like the idea of belonging to a church or anything like that. And he would have categorized himself as a deist. Right. But he was also a man that was a spiritual man. Right. So he believed in dreams and visions and stuff like that. And so he was a big influence on Joseph. Now, the argument goes is that Joseph was kind of making the Book of Mormon for his father, you know, to convert his father. And. And his father would have considered himself at the time as a universalist as well. And so, yeah, Joseph Smith Sr. Is

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:38] very universalist believe, basically.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:41] Universalists believe that basically everybody goes to heaven. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:45] And no need of baptism, no need of following commandments. You're just going to make it.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:50] Yeah, yeah. And that was. So you had ideas like Deism, Unitarianism and Universalism that were counter to traditional biblical Christianity at the time. You know, counter narratives. So, yeah, I mean, Joseph Smith Senior, you know, and this is the whole point too, is when you bring that in because he had a dream that was similar to what would become Lehi's vision as well. And there.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] The family structure a little bit.

Steven Pynakker [00:44:16] Yeah, there's. Well, yeah, and that, that. And that's pretty well established that there's a. There's a family dynamic within the Book of Mormon that parallels the family dynamic within. Within Joseph's world as well.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] Older brothers. Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:44:29] And just. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure he's visionary father. I'm sure he's thinking of William Smith when he's talking about Nephi's older brother sometimes. Right. I mean, I just think that. I mean that again, this is, if. If he's the sole author of this book and these are the influences, I think that you can find these parallels within his family. It's. It's rather obvious that that's. To me, if you're looking at purely naturalistically, that one could make that argument that, yeah, he's definitely paralleling his father. The structure that Lehi is, his father is Joseph Smith Sr. And Joseph Smith Jr. Is Nephi. I think you can make that argument. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] Again, down to the fact that the dream that we have on record that Joseph Smith Sr. Had is in some ways very similar. Almost all. In some ways almost identical to Lehi's dream in the Book of Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [00:45:19] Yes. Yeah, yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Okay. A couple more influences then. We've got just, just the King James version of the Bible that Joseph Smith had in his possession, appearing as Isaiah all throughout the Book of Mormon, potentially just directly copied. Is that fair?

Steven Pynakker [00:45:40] Yeah, I mean, the general consensus is that he had access to a 1769 King James Bible and that he was parroting and Taking stuff from that. I also think that a lot of the King James language that he would have been using also would have been via the sermons that he was hearing as well. And I think that Joseph had the ability to memorize large portions of Scripture. And so I think that he. And also I think he just like they say he was a sponge. Right. So he's taken a lot of things. But I think you could say 1769 King James Bible, but also the sermons that are just full of these script, these same King James Version language as well, those would be the two. I sometimes think it almost was more the influence of the preachers than it was the text of the King James Version in some ways.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] But. But aren't there errors from the. That version of.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:31] Right, that is true. So I do think that there is.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] Say what? Those are like an example.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:36] Oh, well, there was one example. Oh, darn it. I wish I could think, is it

John Dehlin [00:46:40] the italics or is it the actual.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:42] Well, well, first of all, yeah, so he had. He took like there would be helps that would be in there and he would remove those or he would like integrate those in such a way. Yeah, so he would. He would. He would definitely. Some things would make their way into the. Into the Book of Mormon that shouldn't have made their way in, you know, that they were modern, make it, you know, from the King James Version and stuff like that. So, yeah, there's. To most people's minds, there's very little doubt that 1769 King James Version played a major role in it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:10] How about deutero Isaiah?

Guest 3 [00:47:12] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:13] So, you know, there could have been up to six authors of Isaiah. So I think generally five, but some people even think there might have been six or seven. This is the scholarly consensus. Right. And so. But we also are told in the Book of Mormon narrative that they had access to, of course, they get the plates of Laban that has everything written down, and this is really important and it includes Isaiah in there. But the problem is that if you subscribe to the a deutero Isaiah theory, that there were multiple authors of the Book of Isaiah and it wasn't just Isaiah who lived in a particular place in time before these events, but there were later additions to Isaiah, much later that were added in. But then they make their way into the Book of Mormon as if.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:59] Because Rodney Meldrum tried to say that it was Jesus. Maybe when Jesus came, he. He gave them those verses or those chapters, and that's how they ended up in the Book of Mormon. But I made a comment and I don't know. He understood what I was trying to say. But the problem is that we have Nephi quoting Isaiah and saying this is coming from the plates of Laban, right?

Steven Pynakker [00:48:25] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] But the stuff Nephi is quoting, it's would have been written after Lehi left Jerusalem, so there's no way they would have been contained in the brass plate. But is that right?

Steven Pynakker [00:48:35] This is the thing. This is the thing though, that, I mean, that is if you accept the Deutero Isaiah, because not all biblical scholars accept that. I tend to think that that's probably the correct thing. But let's just give some credence. There are born. So just so you know, one argument in favor of the Book of Mormon to literalist Christians is that it actually helps support the Bible and that there would have been one Isaiah. So I say like so. So that's the thing, is that the Book of Mormon, as we were getting to all the different influences, is a defense of the Bible and it's in without him knowing at the time if he's the author that the Book of Mormon can offer. And BH Roberts brought this up, is that. Well, we can make the argument that the Book of Mormon bolsters the Bible because of this Isaiah thing. Right. But I want to acknowledge that there are born again Christians who believe in the Bible, who believe that Isaiah just wrote it. And so it would have been perfectly fine then that they would have had all of Isaiah with them.

John Dehlin [00:49:32] Yeah, we don't have to make the arguments. We've. We've had plenty of that. So one other, one other really important influence that I just had an awakening of listening to Thomas Murphy, I think on your program is one area where Thomas Murphy and, and maybe Rod Meldrum agree, is that the Book of Mormon describes very well actual Native Americans that existed.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] The two problems are it's not Mesoamerican Native Americans and it's not any Native Americans that existed during the Book of Mormon time period. Do you want to fill in the blank of who, who, which Native Americans the Book of Mormon actually accurately describes?

Steven Pynakker [00:50:18] Yeah. So Thomas Murphy said that I believe that the heartland model is the most accurate description of the Book of Mormon. It's just that I believe it took place in the 19th century.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Meaning what? Meaning that as Joseph Smith's describing Lamanites,

Steven Pynakker [00:50:34] he's describing stories about Native Americans that, that were known at the time that make their way into the Book of Mormon. He has characters, Indian chiefs, that, that actually are very similar to characters in the Book of Mormon. He has the idea there was a very well known ceremony where their Iroquois buried their weapons. And so. And then the other thing that Thomas Murphy talks about and then again he revealed this for the first time on my program. This is original research which will be published soon. He said that the Nephites were neophytes. And what were neophytes? Neophytes was a term that was used for recent conversion, convert converts to Christianity in particular Native American Indians. Right. That they, that's what they use. They called them neophytes. So even the term Nephite might have its roots in the term neophyte. So yeah. And then I mean, I'm trying to remember which king. I think he might have paralleled one of the kings in the Book of Mormon with a well known chief like

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:42] in the 17 king maybe, I don't

Steven Pynakker [00:51:44] know, King Lamoni maybe. Yeah, I'm trying to remember which one he referenced. But, but he, he, he's done. You know, this is, the thing is like so, you know, one of the things that I, I say is that if the Book of Mormon is a product of Joseph Smith, I don't think now Dan Vogel would disagree with me on this vehemently. And he'll let me know because Dan Vogel will let you know. Dan thinks that Joseph Smith had in mind a hemispheric model of the Book of Mormon. Land northward, land southward, narrow neck of line and looked at it from a geography geographically. Honestly, I think the argument could be made, and I think Thomas Murphy is of this mind as well is that you can have all the Book of Mormon events take place in Joseph Smith's backyard. And I think that it kind of like Jeremy Runnels kind of created a map of western New York with a lot of Book of Mormon place names

John Dehlin [00:52:39] that I think he got that from someone else.

Steven Pynakker [00:52:40] Yeah, well, no, I think he did. Well, he may have. But I also will tell you what's interesting to me is that there was a faithful Mormon named Phyllis Olive who I think predates the CES letter and she wrote a book, a limited geography model of the heartland model. And she advocates in a faithful in the faithful telling that all the events of the Book of Mormon took place in western upstate in western New York. And she uses the same place names and stuff in others came to similar conclusions that Jeremy Reynolds, whatever work he was doing with the CES letter, a faithful Mormon also created a map of the Book of Mormon, a limited geography model that all takes place in western New York. And I think that, you know, and Geraldo and I were talking about this is that one could argue that Joseph Smith was world building and he was doing it for many, many years before the Book of Mormon was written. I think that one could say that first of all, we know that he talked. He was quite the storyteller and that it was as though he lived among them. Right. Is what his mother said. It was like he was one of them. He knew their manner of wars and speech and religious customs and everything like that. And I think that you could say that you have the treasure digging, Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:53:57] We'll get there.

Steven Pynakker [00:53:58] Okay. No, I'm not. What I'm saying that when I say treasure dig, I'm saying I'm merely speaking about him roaming the land. And I can imagine that you would have a situation where you have this guy where they're walking by mounds and he's telling stories about those mounds and he talks about these battles that happen here and this battle happened there and this all happened.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] He was off basically later, Right. When he sees self. The labor, like.

Steven Pynakker [00:54:24] Oh, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] That's so and so from this story.

Steven Pynakker [00:54:26] Right? Yeah. I mean, that's the argument you could make that he's. He's doing the same thing and he's actually literally mapping out the story of the Book of Mormon in his own backyard in his mind.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] Like Minecraft, you said.

Steven Pynakker [00:54:37] Right. Well, and this is the thing. This is the thing. If he's doing that. See, one of the strongest arguments in favor of the Book of Mormon is that how do you take into account the complexity of the troop movements and the movements within. Like there's this like sophisticated complexity to the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:55] Yeah, geography and geography.

Steven Pynakker [00:54:57] And how do you keep the amount

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:58] of time of people moving from one place to another?

Steven Pynakker [00:55:01] Yeah, am I. And I'm thinking, well, you don't have television, you don't have all these other things, but you've got somebody, you know was known to have a vivid, vivid imagination. And I think he's telling this story during his youth. He's building this world in his mind. Maybe the names change, but he has a story for that mound over there. He has a story for that plane over there, a battle that took place there, and he's developing this story and it's all taking place in the geography of his own backyard. So when you're creating the document of the Book of Mormon, he's able to keep track of everything because it's like he knows that world. He's lived in that world because he created that world.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] And coming back to the Point I think I was trying to make that I got from Thomas Murphy is tell me if I'm wrong as he's describing Lamanites in the Book of Mormon, what, what livestock they have, what food they're eating, their behaviors. Isn't he describing like, why are there horses, why are there pigs, why are there wheat, why is there barley in the Book of Mormon, all the anachronisms. Isn't he literally describing the Native Americans that he's seeing all around him in upstate New York?

Steven Pynakker [00:56:15] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] Am I wrong?

Steven Pynakker [00:56:16] Well, that's, that, that's the argument and that, that's, that's why I'm saying, like, if you're going to come up with a naturalistic explanation, I think that the most logical one is that it all took place in Joseph's backyard and he was able to come up with this entire story based on the world that he knew, the stories that he heard on the campfire, the stories that he told at the campfire and told his other people. And he's just got this amazing capacity to remember things and he's creating this cinematic masterpiece in his mind. He's got this movie, this, this great story. It really is, I mean, a great story in one sense. Right. That he's created. And it's just, it's just waiting for the time where it's needs to be put down onto paper.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] And I, and I learned from Von Brody that his maternal grandfather had written a book, his mom had written a book that like book writing. He was a third generation author of a book. I think that's important to mention. Not a lot of his contemporaries were writing books, but his grandpa wrote a book, his mom wrote a book. And then tell me if I'm also, if, if this is, have you studied at all the Book of Napoleon or the late War? Because, because there have been recent theories to explain kind of the language of the Book of Mormon, where, what might have influenced that.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:40] Yeah, so I think that when you see the late war, it was, which

John Dehlin [00:57:45] is a book, right?

Steven Pynakker [00:57:46] It was a book that was written by a 14 year old boy who wanted to write the history of the War of 1812, but written it in the sense of a biblical story, making it sound like scripture. And so there was a word analysis study that was done that showed that it says it's the most similar book to the Book of Mormon because it uses the King James language. Because back then scripture had to sound like the King James. That was the sound of scripture. So I don't really, I mean, some people have said that this was a popular enough book that it could have made its way into Joseph Smith's hands and it could have influenced him. And, and I think that's possible, but I also think that he may have never even heard of. Heard of it. And that was just been the milieu that was in that, that a lot of kids, a lot of people would have understood the Book of Mormon. I mean that these, this has to sound like scripture. Right. And so that it could have just been a similar parallel that was going on. Whether it influenced him or not. I'm agnostic on. But I definitely think it shows how something could be created like that.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] King James English. King James English being used in a 19th century.

Steven Pynakker [00:58:56] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Original text.

Steven Pynakker [00:58:58] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:58] By a 14 year old.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:00] Yeah, the. I believe the late war was written by a 14 year old. Yeah. So it was. And it was kind of like. It's kind of interesting to see that. I'm almost positive he's 14. Yeah. But so you have this idea of writing it this way, but also it parallels the Book of Mormon in this context is that you got this kid writing scripture of a 19th century event, giving it a feel of something that happened in the Bible. And then you also have somebody potentially doing the same thing with 19th century America, upstate New York, Native Americans, mounds. You can see how that they're telling a similar story, maybe changing the names and making it sound like it took at a place at a different time or place or whatever, like what Joseph did. But yeah, I mean, definitely there's a parallel there that needs to be further investigated. I think, I think it's an interesting idea.

John Dehlin [00:59:51] And so you just use the word parallel. That word was coming to my mind as well because I am not a fan of parallelism, which is what many modern Mormon apologists do, which is finding some three letters NHM or whatever, and then go to somewhere in the Arabian peninsula and find a match and say, look, this proves that that Lehigh would have stopped and built an altar. You know, that's parallelism and that's not a good thing. I don't want to be doing that here. And having said that, to summarize, kind of the contextual discussion of the context that may have produced the Book of Mormon, what I think we just explained were many of the major influences of. In other words, some people want to make the argument that the Book of Mormon is such a miracle, like there's no way it could have been authored by Joseph Smith. But once you understand the contextual influences that likely influence the creation of the Book of Mormon, which includes the Bible, Old and New Testament, the mound builder myth. Right. Joseph's own, you know, Lehi and Joseph's own family narrative, all the Protestant sermons, the Masonic rhetoric that was going on. Right. And the understanding of Native Americans living in upstate New York at the time, along with upstate New York geography. There are many people that say the Book of Mormon plus Joseph's gift for storytelling and for remembering things. The Book of Mormon actually is the exact book you would expect to come out of 1818, 30s. The mind of an 1830 gifted storyteller who had access to all these things.

Steven Pynakker [01:01:41] Yeah, yeah. And is that. I think, I think, yeah. I mean, that's, that's, that's a pretty, I think that that's a very compelling argument one could make. Absolutely. But I, I also will say that if I just want to give a counter idea, and I think, because I think it's also interesting is that if the items are appearing on the stone and it's a word for word. Right. That it kind of undermines that theory if we're talking about that.

Guest 3 [01:02:10] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:10] Because the scholars would have us believe that we have to believe that there's these words that magically appeared on the stone and that's how we got scripture and that's what the, what the outside world is supposed to accept. If we take Joseph Smith as translator, let's just say, because this is, this is what I believe. I believe there were plates.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Well, we're getting there. Let's, let's not jump ahead.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:27] Okay. But as translator, let's just talk about the translator. As a translator, he's going to take like any other biblical translator. He is going to take all the influences of his world and integrate it into scripture. So biblical scripture is written by people that were influenced in products of their time, but they're in there, so it's going to be part of that whole thing. So it doesn't. In other words, when you're translating from another language, you're going to be thinking in your world. That's just the only argument, in other words, in favor of a translation process that would include the secular explanation. Right? It is, it is a secular. But I like to think on different levels too. You know, I just find that I think it adds to the conversation.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Okay, so do we cover the main contextual or cultural influences that you think likely influenced the Book of Mormon?

Steven Pynakker [01:03:15] Yeah, and I think that, like I said, I think really, to me, the biggest thing about the Book of Mormon is the complexity of the troop movements and the movements of these bodies over periods of time. And I really, really think that the most compelling argument could be. Is that he has it all mapped out. I think that's the one takeaway I want people to get from this, is that you can. You can certainly see how he could have the whole story up in his head and have everything. Be able to remember everything. Exact.

John Dehlin [01:03:42] Yeah. Okay. All right, so now let's go to the actual history and talk about the treasured. Like, John.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:53] Sorry, I. I did want to. Because you were making a. A reference to parallelomania.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:00] It's hard to say that this is. It's different to come up with a three letters in the Middle East.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:07] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:08] Then, like, these are proven theories and things that are talked about in Joseph Smith's time. So we're not taking, like, things that were taught in, like, Central America and then saying, oh, maybe Joseph heard about those things.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] Like. Like Oliver Cowdery literally attended the church where Ethan Smith authored the View of the Hebrews, which contained the mound builder myth. Like Oliver Cowdery attended that dude's congregation. Is that what you're saying?

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:38] Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:39] Yeah. And that's the thing I do want to say, like, when you use the NHM and the potential launching point in the Middle east, that's. That would not have been, of course, a parallel that he would have been aware. But also, I don't necessarily consider those parallels because.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:52] They're kind of the closest thing to bull's eyes for the Book of Mormon. So I think. I think the parallelism is when you see with Ethan Smith, what he's doing is he's like, well, the Native Americans wash their hands a certain way that parallels a Jewish purification ritual. So it's this idea of trying to find commonalities within the Native American populations that existed at the time. And then this is what Protestants were doing. They were trying to find a influence of Hebrew practices amongst the Native Americans and then paralleling that with them and then making the argument for the 10 lost tribes, which could have influenced the. The parallelism that you would find in the Book of Mormon. And then why apologetics. Modern apologists would use those same parallels as a defense of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] But. But would people who want to provide a secular explanation for the Book of Mormon be using parallelism to try and demonstrate the more cultural influences of the Book of Mormon? Are you saying that would not qualify as parallelism to be sort of saying, here's where the Lehigh's dream comes from? It comes from.

Steven Pynakker [01:05:59] Oh, yeah, no, that would be parallelism. And that. And there's two different ways of. Look, Yeah, I would say one is parallels and one's influences, I guess you could say, you know.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] Yeah. Because if Joseph's got a certain version of the King James Bible.

Steven Pynakker [01:06:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] And it's literally word for word appearing in the Book of Mormon, that's not parallelism. Right, right. What is that?

Steven Pynakker [01:06:17] That's just. Yeah. I mean, you're just copying, right?

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Yeah. So that's what you're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] Is that it's not fair to compare modern Mormon apologetics. Yeah, Mormon apologetics.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:31] But yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] Okay. All right. Okay. So we've got. Let's start with Joseph Smith treasure digging. When do you think. Talk about the emergence of. Of Joseph's participation in treasure digging with also the emergence of the idea of the Book of Mormon? Because I'm Joseph Smith's treasure dig. Well, we think that Joseph Smith Sr. Might have been treasure digging before, but the wood scrape, probably with Hiram and, and, and, and, you know, there was, there was Sally Hemings, Sally Chase. Chase and others. Treasure digging. But then. But also the Book of Mormon. The idea for the Book of Mormon emerges in 1823. So talk about, like, the origins of both the treasure digging and the emergence of the idea for a book which doesn't come until seven years right after the idea for the book.

Joseph Smith's Treasure Digging and Seer Stone

Steven Pynakker [01:07:19] Yep. So in 18, of course, Joseph Smith has his first vision and then the spring, roughly.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] Does he like.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:26] No, no, this is the narrative. No, I think that Joseph Smith had a born again experience in 1820. I think he had.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:31] I think it was in 1823. Because if.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:34] Well, that's. If you're following. In other words, I think what happens that there was something that happened to Joseph Smith in 1820. Okay. Yeah. But the later story about the. See, again, there's additions to the story that take place later on. So the idea of revivals happening in 1823, he conflated. He adds that to the story later on. I don't think that changes that Something happened in 1820. I just think he took. He takes the things that happen after the fact and adds it into the first vision later on. That's kind of the position that I take.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] So you had a childhood.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] What's it called? Epiphany or.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:12] Yeah, just. Yeah, just born again. Born again experience. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] So, I mean, you would. You would probably empathize with that part of Joseph Smith.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:18] I mean, I just, I think that we can date the first vision or something happening to 1820.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] Personally, theophany. Is that what it's called?

Steven Pynakker [01:08:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Epiphany. Well, theophany. And. Yeah, there's. Either way, I just think, personally, people

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:30] at that time were seeing visions and seeing God and Jesus and having experiences very similar to Stephen from the Bible. Right. Like, it was not unheard of.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:40] Yeah. Brent Metcalf and I talked about that, how there was. He found some parallels that. That actually kind of got him kicked out. Eventually would get him kicked out of the church for finding some of this stuff.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] Because there's at least like 20 accounts of people having a very similar experience of God and Jesus or just. Or the Lord.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Before. In the 10 years prior to Joseph Smith claiming to have his first vision.

Steven Pynakker [01:09:03] And. Yeah. And that's. And again, this is almost like. Like later on, because at this point, I think that Joseph is a believing Christian in 1820. He's sincere in his faith, and I think that he did have some kind of experience. And then in the spring of 1821 is when he starts taking up, roughly thereabouts, taking up the operation of money digging. Right. And what is money, of course, we. Most of us know in the audience is pretty well versed in this, is that he was involved in looking for lost buried treasure. Many thought lost Spanish minds, lost treasure of pirates. And so he was hired out to use these mystical, magical practices to track. To track down these items and would have people go through these particular ceremonies that they would have to go through at certain times at night. And sometimes it may have been involved in sacrificing dogs, lambs and things as a blood offering to the guardian spirit of those treasures. So this is all part of the lore. And. And of course, Mark Elwood's graphic novel beautifully illustrates these stories that were going on at the time. And so this is a world that's steeped in the occult. And Joseph appears to have been very much actively participating in this. It's. Well, it's very well documented that this is indeed the case.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:30] What do you think of the idea that Joseph was Just. Because I think even the church to this day wants to claim a little bit that Joseph was just digging the holes, but not really.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] And I was going to ask that too. How did Joseph Smith become the gifted one who could find things versus just the shovel, you know, dirt digger. Do you know how that emerges? Do you have a sense for how that emerges?

Steven Pynakker [01:11:01] I think Joseph has the ability to weave tales and stories in such a way that he can convince people. So I have an aunt who's a great storyteller. My mom used to told me this all the time. She would tell these stories that were so believable and she'd make them up, but after a while she would believe her own stories. And so I think that the power of being able to tell a story that's very compelling, that maybe you even start believing yourself is what gets him up in the ranks of this is the guy, this is the leader. This guy has the gift. I think all. There were other claimants, others that claim to have these, this power. But I think Joseph was able to tell a better story and a more compelling story to give people good reason to believe that there is lost treasure somewhere.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] When you say the gift, you mean the gift of what?

Steven Pynakker [01:11:54] The gift of treasure seeking. The gift of being able to kind of be like a. A person who can see hidden things using his seer stone.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] And this is really important because every Mormon knows the term prophet, seer, seer and revelator. But this is Joseph's beginning is he's

Steven Pynakker [01:12:17] viewed as a seer, a treasure seer.

John Dehlin [01:12:20] And the word seer comes out of folk magic lore. Am I wrong?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:24] Which is bigger than the prophet, right?

Steven Pynakker [01:12:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:26] In the book of a seer is greater than a prophet.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] But what did the term seer was that.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:32] That would have been term that was. There is, there is seer in the Bible.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:37] But it would have been something that maybe the, the occult people would have glommed onto and made like the principle, like a real important term within their worldviews. Because there were all these treasure seekers. They are stooped in the biblical world. So they're going to use biblical language as well. But yeah, seer becomes like the most important character in this whole enterprise.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] And so is Joe. Just Joseph starting to go on treasure digs with family and neighbors. I mean if I'm. If I were going to go on a treasure dig, I'd much rather be the dude viewed as having magical powers who can find the stuff than the dude who just has to schlep the shovel and dig a whole lot. I mean it's a cooler gig in the treasure digging world. It's kind of like the apex predator, so to speak. Right. Am I wrong?

Steven Pynakker [01:13:20] Well, I mean it would be the

John Dehlin [01:13:21] position to aspire to if you wanted to have the most influence and power in the group.

Steven Pynakker [01:13:25] It would have been the position I would have aspired to.

Guest 3 [01:13:27] Me too.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] And so in your view Joseph, like do you think he started thinking he really had that gift or do you think he's Just like, I'd rather do that than dig, you know? Do you have a thought about that?

Steven Pynakker [01:13:42] You know, perhaps it was a good way to get out of work, but perhaps he. He might start believing his own stories, right? I think that that could very well be that he maybe. I think he's so. The idea of looking through spiritual eyes, through your mind's eye, and all these kind of things that he's. He's seen something. He's describ. Describing something. So I think he's thinking that he is seeing something. I think that he's. It's. It's a con. But you also feel that. I don't know. I think that it seems to me that being in a superstitious. Having a superstitious worldview is that you believe that magic is real. You believe in black magic and white magic, and you believe in the. I mean, they really believe this stuff. I mean, Joseph wore a talisman and all this kind of stuff, so it was ingrained in his worldview. So I think that on some level that, yeah, he probably did believe he had this power. And I think that as the stories get more interesting, I think he's. They're becoming more real to him. And so I think he's getting better at telling these stories. And that's why he gets this reputation of being able to find these things. And then, of course, he maybe does demonstrations of. Of finding things. But he may have been involved in, like, hiding, like, finding somebody's cows. But he's the one that put the cows out the pasture and then found them that way, those kind of things. But in. In the mind of people like that, that would not necessarily mean that they thought they were a fraud. They were just saying, well, I'll show. This is a shortcut to prove that I. I have this gift. I'll just do this, and then they'll all believe me type kind of thing. That might have been something.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:19] And it could be he was going back and forth maybe a day. He believed. I don't know. That's pure speculation.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] But, like, one of the questions I've had is he's always. There's this pattern of, like, leading everyone to a spot, saying that he can see the treasure. They all start digging. They get to the place where they really are saying, okay, there better be something here soon. And then Joseph's always saying, oh, you did the wrong thing. Spirit took it away. In my mind, I'm almost wondering, like, okay, that happens every single time. Like, if Joseph really believed he was seeing treasure in Spirits. Would there ever be a point where he's like, it seems interesting that we keep going on these digs and the treasure gets taken right before it's found. So either he thought about that or he was fooling people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:07] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:16:08] You know, I mean, and this is the thing though too is like. Yeah. I mean this is, this is. Gets so hard because you're talking about Joseph and everything. And I hate, I mean I love the guy. Right. On some level. So I almost hate to even say too many things. But yeah, I mean I think that on its most. If you just looked at it brass, brass knuckles or what, brass tacks, whatever you call that, you're probably looking at a con man. You're probably looking at somebody who's conning people. Yeah. And you have a lot of people that believe that he has this gift, including his father.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] So is that dad's believing that he has the gift, so he's conning his own family?

Steven Pynakker [01:16:48] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] And, and there's a motive because they need money and the farming isn't working out so well.

Steven Pynakker [01:16:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] Is that right?

Steven Pynakker [01:16:54] Yeah, I mean that's, that's. They need the money. I. Like I said, I think the Smiths all believe that their magic was real. So I think that. And I think Joseph believed that was real too. But I think that he also obviously had to be in his mind. He had to figure he was making some of this stuff up too. Right. I mean I just, I. I think he, because he was prone, he would use deception to do this kind of stuff. So. But I think it was also an end justified the mean things. I've got this gift, but I also got to tell the story. But also, you know, we need to make some money or whatever. And so yeah, I think.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] And I like to tell stories and

Steven Pynakker [01:17:30] yeah, I mean I like to have

John Dehlin [01:17:31] power because it's not cool, it's not uncool. It's kind of cool to be known as someone with special powers. Like to me that's where the profit stuff, it emerges out of the seer thing. It's like there's this, this little kid who's like got the special power and the word gets around not just through New York, but also Pennsylvania. Right?

Steven Pynakker [01:17:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] Or Josiah stole wouldn't have sent for him.

Steven Pynakker [01:17:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] So like he starts to be known amongst superstitious folk as a youth with special gifts and powers and who, who doesn't want to be thought of that way. Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:18:05] Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because that actually reminds me of a time When I was a young child and I made a spiritual claim that wasn't maybe 100% accurate and told some of my friends in the schoolyard. And all of a sudden everybody started having dreams and visions.

Guest 3 [01:18:23] And

Steven Pynakker [01:18:26] it was almost like I started it and I recognized what I did. And I remember telling. I think I was in elementary school and I told one of my friends, I think I could start. I could, I would make a good cult leader. I could start a cult because I saw how it worked in my mind that I made a claim that wasn't maybe,

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:52] I don't know.

Steven Pynakker [01:18:53] I think in my own sincere way I was trying to do something to bring people closer to faith.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:58] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:18:58] And I kind of fudged it a little bit. And next thing you know, everybody believes

John Dehlin [01:19:03] me, the kids, and they're believing more in Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [01:19:05] Yeah. It causes disruption at the school that the teacher's like, all these kids are having dreams and visions and Jesus was appearing to them and they were giving all. I mean, it was just this little short lived thing. And I kind of stepped back from it because, like, oh my goodness, what hath I wrought? But yeah, it's like a distant memory. I barely remember. But I do recognize how one person in sincere, you know, this is going back to the sincerity aspect, could say something and then I recognize right then and there, oh, that's how, that's how you start something. That's how it works.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] And if you believe in Jesus and if whatever you're doing that isn't quite honest is causing people to believe in Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [01:19:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:45] It's like, hey, like, what's the harm there? More people are believing in Jesus and justify the means because it's bringing people to Christ. Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:19:54] Well, I could have gone that direction. I bet. I'm not saying people can, but you

John Dehlin [01:19:57] can see how that could all day.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:59] Well, and that's Joseph's definition of good. It's on, it's on the Book of Mormon. He, he says that whatever brings you close to Christ is good because the devil can do. No, the devil can't do anything that will bring you close to Christ.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:16] Yeah. You know, and, and I, like, I live in a Christian community in Florida that, that almost every televangelist has been through. Benny Hinn got his start there. Benny Hinn was just there a few weeks ago. And I will tell you that I know Benny believes, but I also know that he uses deception.

John Dehlin [01:20:36] I don't even know who that is.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:37] He's one of the most famous televangelists in the last 2030 years. He's kind of fallen off. Fallen off a bit. But he's. He was, he was huge for a while there. And. Yeah, but it's like. So I know what a pious prophet fraud looks. Can look like in a modern context.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] Okay, so Joseph Smith's treasure digging, your view is he was probably consciously defrauding people at some level, but also believing in Jesus. How does the Book of Mormon then start. The idea for the Book of Mormon emerge and then how does that parallel his treasure digging?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:13] I have a question. Wasn't there a prophecy or something one of his parents had that Joseph was gonna tell.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:19] Be a prophet? Yeah, yeah. It wasn't. Wasn't that his. Was that his grandmother?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:24] I can't remember.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:25] Yeah, I think that there was going to be a prophet in the, in the family.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:27] Family.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:28] I think it was his grandmother. Yeah. So. So yeah, that's early on in the whole, Whole process. Yeah. That, that this idea is there. There's no doubt.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] And Alvin's not going to, you know, it's not going to be Alvin because he died.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:39] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:21:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] So one of them's got to step up.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:42] Yeah. It's.

John Dehlin [01:21:43] It's a prophecy needs to be fulfilled. Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:48] Yep. Yep. And so somebody. Yeah. And there's almost a familial expectation at this point. Right. So, yeah. You know, and this is the thing. Like I, as a young child, a lot of people thought that I had some prophetic calling as well. So I know what it's like to have that, to feel that sense of responsibility.

How the Book of Mormon Emerged in Joseph's Mind

John Dehlin [01:22:09] So how does the idea, in your view, how does the idea of the Book of Mormon emerge in Joseph's mind?

Steven Pynakker [01:22:15] So I think that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:18] So sorry. Putting into a book, because he already talked about how the ideas are being developed.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] All the storytelling stories. Like Lucy is basically on record that he would captivate the family around the fire and in the treasure digging, telling native telling stories. So he's, he's. You're. Like you said, he's building the story of the book in his mind.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:40] But yeah. How to put it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:41] When to put it into a book? Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:44] When does it emerge? The conversation about it becoming a book.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:49] Yeah, that's really good. I think that he conflates two things. So I think Joseph Smith is a Christian and Joseph Smith is also a treasure digger. I think what we see, and I was talking to John Hamer about this, is that what makes the Book of Mormon so unique is that there have been other claims to have found ancient civilization records and other things. Writings from Native Americans and so this was something, an idea that was out there. Right. So now we have physical gold or treasure, which is what he's been looking for. And then we also have this idea of a lost civilization, an explanation for the lost civilization. And I think that the genius is, is that you have. Have these two worlds put together also.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] I just want to add to it, if it's okay. You've got this idea of, you know, Captain Cook or whatever killing one of the pirates.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] Burying them with the treasure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:49] Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:50] So that a spirit's guarding the treasure.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:52] Guarding the treasure, Right, Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] So the. So the golden plates are treasure.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] And then the angel Moroni is the spirit guarding the treasure. No.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:02] Yeah. So that one, I mean, that's another example of taking a. A story that's magical and then giving it a Christian terminology. Right. So you have. Now you have an angel, and now you have scripture, and now you have treasure, and now you have an explanation of these mounds that we're digging in. Right. So you have this just convergence all happening right then and there. And this is the story that he starts developing. And I think that, again, I think that he has an idea of this story. And I think that this, this is going to provide all the answers to a lot of things. I don't know how in 1823, how, how sophisticated he thinks this is going to get. And if he's really just telling a story that then. And maybe it's a story that really takes. And people are really. It's like Alvin's enthralled by this story.

Guest 3 [01:24:58] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:59] So it may be an example of taking a story that he's told many multiple stories about multiple treasures, about multiple things. But this one maybe causes people to really take notice because it's a very unique story and it covers so many different hits, so many big notes in that world. And so maybe one can say that Joseph has found. He's found the treasure that he's going to run with. Because I've got something. I've tell many stories, but this is the one that's most compelling, that people are most interested in asking about, that my brother Alvin is most fascinated by. So I think that's when he starts really using this as an opportunity to start developing this world that he's probably already started developing. But then as. But I think that's where it all happens. I think that he finally found a hit that he knew would work and cause people to really listen to a story and be fascinated by it and be. And that that would give him then a status that would put him on a different level too, like above any of the other seers.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:10] He's now just not a seer. He's a translator now and. Right. If he finds.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:16] Yeah. So is he thinking of himself being a translator at the time when he finds it? I don't know, but I think he's. At this point, the story is still early on, and the role he's going to play is probably still in its evolution. But I think what happens is, like I said, there's many stories he told that we don't know about. But we know he told a lot of stories, but this is probably the one that really was the one that grabbed people's attention and this is the start of it.

John Dehlin [01:26:41] And tell me if I'm wrong, but by 1823, one story he never told was the story of the first vision.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:47] Right.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] Because there's no evidence that he ever told anyone that he saw Jesus or God in Jesus by 1823.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:54] Oh, yeah, this is.

John Dehlin [01:26:55] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:55] This is beyond dispute. Nobody knew about the first vision in the early 1830s, like John Hamer said. If you had said the first vision, they would have thought, oh, you mean

John Dehlin [01:27:04] angel moroni, which is 1823. So in 1823 is the first time he ever tells anybody that he actually has some angelic visitation. So at some point, I guess he basically either manufactures or has what he believes to be a visit by an angel. And that's when he first starts telling people that we know of that he's been visited by a celestial being. Is that right?

Steven Pynakker [01:27:29] Yeah, yeah. So this is, this is a different story because.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] And is it Nephi or is it Moroni?

Steven Pynakker [01:27:33] Well, yeah, that's the question because some of the early accounts say it was Nephi, you know, and so we, we. The story still is, Is still being fleshed out probably years later. Right. We don't know exactly what he was telling people back then, but I think he's telling people about the. I think early, relatively early on, he's telling people about the hill Cumorah.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] And the name might have come from

Steven Pynakker [01:27:56] the Comoros Islands with the catch with the capital Moroni. Yeah. So it's from Billy the Kid. Treasure seek, pirate lores, Captain Kids, Captain kids stories of buried treasure. And those are areas that he would have. Stories that Joseph would have been familiar with.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] Do you think that's a significant connection? Because a lot of people want to dismiss that, but like the fact that he was a treasure digger, he knew about Captain Kidd. And then in a book with a map, it's got Moroni and Kimora on the same map. That's like a lot of coincidences.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:27] Yeah. You know, that one never really stuck for me. I never thought that was terribly, terribly.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] That's not even relevant. You don't think he got Moroni or Kimora from, from pirate lore?

Steven Pynakker [01:28:40] Yeah, no, I, I, I, I never, that one to me was never a real strong argument. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:44] I think there's at least one account of a neighbor saying that he was a fan of Captain Kid stories.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:51] Yeah, we know that, that, that, I'm sure that was an influence, but I just think that, I don't think it's a very strong argument, but. Right. I do think that his, that's interesting because his grandmother or his mother used the term hill at Cumorah. A lot of people thought that it was added on later on about the hill Cumorah. And so people, and this gets into the heartland stuff. But basically I think that the early terminology wasn't Hill Cumorah but was Hill at Cumorah. And it evolves into Hill Cumorah, which I kind of think takes, it takes that naming convention because within the Great Lakes region you have this very interesting naming convention for lakes. It's not, it's Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, Lake Superior, Hill Cumorah. I think it almost like has this naming convention that he kind of follows, but I think it was probably originally called Hill at Cumorah.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:29:50] Or Hill of Camorra, one of those two.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] But he starts telling his family and siblings that an angel appeared to him and, and said what?

Steven Pynakker [01:29:59] Oh, well, he introduces himself as a survivor of this lost civilization and this is the record of the inhabitants of this land. And that he's, this, this is, he's got to go. And at some point he's going to be able to retrieve these records and be able to then tell the story, eventually become the translator and of these records of this ancient civilization. And, and it's, that's, that's the whole story. That's, that's the beginning of Mormonism right there.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] But it's not, it's a four year delay between his claim of an original visitation and him actually starting work on the book. How do you explain why, why, why did he include in the story a four year wait?

Steven Pynakker [01:30:44] Yeah. So, you know, the story goes, is that every September 22nd he's visiting the hill and he attempts to retrieve the plates.

John Dehlin [01:30:52] And that's an important date, right?

Steven Pynakker [01:30:53] Yeah, yeah, it is because it's a, it's an important date within the magical world.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:00] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:01] And it's the, Was it the fall equinox or that this plays an important role in, in, in like for instance, astrology and farmers, almond almanacs and all these. Had all these dates that were significant and that they had these magical attributes to those dates and everything like that. So the idea is that he's making these attempts to get the plates now. I just wonder if he's having. He wants to be able to. He's still working on the story and so he just has to go. And I don't think every September 22, he probably is going, yeah, Dan Vogel

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:34] says that that never happened. Yeah, that was a later fabrication.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:37] So it could be. I don't know. I, I'm, I wouldn't be surprised if he does make those trips because it's, it's a magical night.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:45] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:45] And you've already told the story about the plates, so why wouldn't you make that part of your narrative at that time as well?

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:52] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:52] I mean, that's kind of how I would think maybe it's part of the story that he's. Is this narrative that he's trying to create. So yeah, it's an important date now that he's going there every night and every September 22nd or at least some of them. And you know, that's as a Christian, as an evangelical.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:12] It's.

Steven Pynakker [01:32:13] It's bothersome that a lot of practices that involve what would be cult like or occult, occult type practices, those are red flags for a lot of Christians too, you know. You know that where you would have objections to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as well.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:33] You know, aren't there many questions around what was really the story? Like John brought up the Nephi versus Moroni. I think there's an account of it being a tote or something along those lines, which is where Mark Hoffman gets his idea for the letter.

Steven Pynakker [01:32:53] Yeah. So there was a story going around that it was a magical toad. And the idea that. And that's why. See this is the thing is like why did these stories. Why do these stories.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] Yeah, yeah, it's a credible.

Steven Pynakker [01:33:08] Yeah, yeah. There was this toad involved.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] It becomes our angel.

Steven Pynakker [01:33:12] Yeah, yeah. And it morphs into, you know. Yeah. I mean, so we have these stories that are out there and, and, and I guess the argument is, is that they're more superstitious and then they get more Christian as the story evolves and stuff like that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:26] Yeah, yeah. Because the church. Because growing up, what I was taught was that Joseph was going every year to get instructions from Moroni about how to handle the plates and how to maybe translate them and how to use the spectacles and all that stuff. And that's why he had to take

John Dehlin [01:33:45] three years, go to profit school.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:47] Yeah, well, that's what pretty much the current LDS curriculum says. But like I'm saying, there's so either all that store that whole story developed later because there's a lot of other.

Steven Pynakker [01:34:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:04] Accounts that don't tell that consist like it's not that consistent.

Steven Pynakker [01:34:07] You know, I mean, I can see him not going at all. I can see him going every September 22nd and doing magical, magical rituals which would have been tied in with that treasure seeking world. Or he's seen MORONI Every, every September 22nd. Right. I mean those are, I think your three, three narratives there.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] And why, why didn't he just start writing the book in 1823? Do you have a thought on that?

Steven Pynakker [01:34:26] You know, I think that, you know, I think he's still probably developing the story. I think maybe it's. He recognizes that it's becoming something and I better get it right. And so I'd rather. I need time to develop the story

John Dehlin [01:34:40] because if the book is as miraculous as everybody says it, he's gonna have to spend a lot of time developing it. I mean, that makes sense.

Steven Pynakker [01:34:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:48] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:34:48] Yeah. I think, I think, I think he's got the outline. I think he's got a general idea and he's got all the influences. He's got a flesh. He needs time to flesh out the story. Plus he's got other things going on too. But I think it buys him time, you know, from that time to the other. I think throughout this whole time, people are asking him about the plates. They want to know about them. So he knows he's probably got something here and he's got to really make sure he gets it. Tells a good story.

Guest 3 [01:35:11] Isn't there a story? I remember being told a story of he would go there and try to get them and then he would be like shocked or like there's a story. Yeah, he would be. Somehow the angel was like, no, you're not worthy enough yet. You're not good enough yet to be able to touch them. And so then he would have to bury him back up, put the rock back on. And then he would come, he would say, come back a year from now. That's what I was told. That was the story I was told. I don't know if anyone else has heard that story too.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] And that's that. That for me, that comes from treasure Lore of this slippery treasure, which actually is a term used in the Book of Mormon itself. But it's. It's this. It's this idea that comes from the treasure digging practices that up, if you didn't do quite the right thing, the slippery, you know, the treasure becomes slippery, that the spirit takes it away and you don't get it. Like, that's another direct borrowing from treasure digging lore that I was also told, Jen. Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:36:12] And not only that, but part of it also is too, is that the idea was, is that Joseph had to be prepared to take the place because he got it too early. He might. He. He had to. He had to quit being like that. The greedy Joseph Smith might want to steal those. Take that and sell it. And so it's almost like it's telling you that Joseph is kind of telling you about what kind of person he was at the time, because he's even telling you that the story is that until the preparation was right for him to be in the right space to take these plates, he had to kind of remove the greediness of the person that he was at this time. Which seems to tell you that that was maybe his mindset. It kind of. To me, it's a telling. It might be a tell of him making a point that his greed was what, one of the reasons that kept him from being able to get the plates.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Yeah. And I would imagine that telling everyone in 1823, hey, angels are visiting me. And there's this super. Well, you know, there's this deposit of gold that I know where it is, and someday I'm going to have access to it. I imagine that would generate a lot of cool attention by superstitious folk who are poor and need money. It's like, whoa, someday, not only are angels going to come out of the sky and, like, help this kid find this buried gold treasure, but maybe I can get rich from it. Right. Or maybe the heavens are opened. You know, Like, I imagine that Joseph benefited from that legend of having had that experience and of the promise someday that he's going to be uncovering a boatload of gold.

Steven Pynakker [01:37:52] Yeah, right. I think. Yeah. I mean, I just think this is the world's all converging, you can say.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Jen, were you going to say something?

Guest 3 [01:37:58] Yeah. I was just wondering if this was the same time where he was actively doing treasure digging for other people. Like this story that he's telling everyone, would that be like a. Like, kind of like a validation that he can do this, Like a story that he's telling everyone else. I Don't know if it was going on at the same time.

Steven Pynakker [01:38:21] For sure it was. Yeah. It's all tied in with the treasure digging years and it all. It's all paralleling each other. I think that this is the thing you have. You have all these competitors that are making claims to have these powers. Lumen, Lumen Waters. And then you had Sally Chase and you had other. There would have been many people. I mean, the reason why we know there were many people doing this is because they had laws on the books in New York that kept you from doing it. You don't write laws unless you have a problem.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:48] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:38:49] So you have a lot of people that. And so there's this pecking order of status that's going on. Well, you could say that he made the like, ultimate claim that puts him at the top of the heap.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:03] There's this story that Don Vogel tells that I really like of when Joseph takes a seer. And I can't remember if it was Lumen Walters or someone else. He takes him to the hill and he says, oh, I can. He takes the. His seer stone and says, here's the. Where. Where the treasure is. Can you see it? Do you remember that story?

Steven Pynakker [01:39:24] Yes. So it's really interesting because I don't remember the. It's another guy. He's a. He's a peer of Josephs.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:31] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:39:31] And they're still standing at Hill Cumorah. And this is the introduction of the spectacles.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:36] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:39:37] Into the story.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:38] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:39:38] Okay. So what you have here is. You have. Have. And this actually could. You could say this is how. Outdoing each other. Right.

John Dehlin [01:39:45] Mark talked about this in my interview with Mark. Yeah, the glass looker.

Steven Pynakker [01:39:48] So, yeah. Yes. And Mark's a great guy. I love him. That they're standing there next to each other and they're. They're telling each other what they're seeing, and then they're describing it. I see a stone box.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] Do you see it?

Steven Pynakker [01:40:05] Do you see it? Yes, I do. You see go plates. Yes. And so this is the story that Joseph has already introduced.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:11] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:12] And then his companion says, do you see spectacles? Do you see? And then Joseph says.

John Dehlin [01:40:18] Because if Joseph says no, then he doesn't have that much power.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:21] Right.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] He has less power to see the spectacles.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:24] I think the story goes that the pier. He's. Joseph Spear says, do you see the spectacles? And Joseph says, no. And he says, well, look again. Okay. And Joseph is like, oh, now I see them. And so it was kind of like a power play. And who's the bigger seer? Well, Joseph had to look twice, but I need you.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:44] But.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:45] But I'm still gonna vouch for your plates. But you have to recognize I was. I saw something that you couldn't.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:51] Yeah. So now they both have skin in the game. Right. So this guy has now attached himself to the plates as well, because now the spectacles make it into the story.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:59] Yeah. So Joseph now has to have. Have spectacles later on, because now they're spectacles.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:41:10] So just. And just so we could tie this in a little bit too. The story of the narrative goes is they were oversized spectacles.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:18] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:41:19] And this is another influence of the. Of this 19th century period, the giants, because a lot of people believe that giants constructed the mounds. It was a race of giants, as in the Bible, and that this was the oversized spectacles because they were built by a giant. And in Don Bradley's book, the Lost 116 pages, he talks about stories that implies that the Nephites, when they landed. When. When Lehi's party landed, that they encountered ruins that appeared to have been built by giants. So we do have another early source of the story. Now, the oversized spectacle part maybe is not part of the story yet, but that's just another story going around that there were giants that built these mounds. That kind of makes it into the idea of oversized spectacles. But also, apparently, in the lost 116 pages, Giants do make their appearance, in some sense, in the Book of Mormon, in the Lost Book of Lehi.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] And that's why Rod Meldrum mentioned giants.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:22] Well, you asked him about giants.

John Dehlin [01:42:24] Yeah, yeah, there.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:28] So just about talking about the spectacles, just really quick, it seems like there was a back and forth between, yes, they're giant spectacles. And the church today will teach that the spectacles were big and too large. And maybe that's why Joseph had to use his seer stone later, because they just didn't fit him. But in reality, when he retrieves the plates, the story that his family tells is that he has just some, like, stones inside a cloth that just Lucy touches. It's nothing huge. Right. Am I right?

Steven Pynakker [01:43:06] Right. So it's interesting though, too, because in the narrative, Joseph seemed to be more intrigued by the spectacles than the plates themselves. So apparently we have something that was fashioned like the size of spectacles that she was able to feel, and she comments that he was more interested in those. So that's what always fascinates me. Those spectacles and his fascination with them over the plates. I. Yeah, I don't think she describes them as oversized, but the narrative is that they were oversized.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:36] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:43:37] And yeah, it's just a fat. That's a fascinating vestige that I'm still exploring because I think that there's an apologetic argument that I could make, because I do make apologetic arguments in favor of the Book of Mormon as well. And I actually made one to Richard Bushman that he had never heard before that I include with the seer stone and the symbols. So basically, one of the arguments that I make, and this is kind of off topic, but we'll just have a little fun with this right now, is that in the Old Testament narrative, Moses goes up to Sinai and God uses his own finger to create the Ten Commandments. Moses goes down from Sinai and he sees the sins and wickedness of the people. He smashes those Ten Commandments. And as a punishment, God makes Moses construct the tablets himself with his own hands. Right? So now we don't have a divine. We have man made, a man writing these things down. And the argument goes, and I sometimes wonder, were the Ten Commandments that God wrote, were they more grace based, but because a man was constructing the stones, they became more works based? I sometimes wonder, is that what happens then is he's punished, and so he has to do it with his own hands early on in the process, Joseph Smith, as we're doing the translation of the Book of Mormon, loses the last 116 pages. And according to Dan Vogel and others, well, of course, then we have the story. The plates are gone and so are the spectacles. And the argument is that Perhaps the first 116. Dan. Dan Vogel doesn't agree with this, but some have argued that the first 116 pages may have been using the spectacles. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:26] That's the story the Church says it tells. And I think Richard Bushman's theory is that he used spectacles for this loss. But Dan Bogle says he used the searstone.

Steven Pynakker [01:45:36] He used your stone, the whole thing. But let's just say that he used these spectacles for the last 116 pages. This is the apologetic argument, is that he gets.

John Dehlin [01:45:45] They've got plenty of airtime. We don't need to hear that.

Steven Pynakker [01:45:49] He asked me because. Well, this is the argument that I. That I'm making is because nobody's ever used this one before, is that Joseph gets the plates back, but as punishment, he has to use the seer Stone, just like Moses had to use his own hands to construct the Ten Commandments. So now he's made. Now he has to carry this burden. And he's making a mockery that Joseph has to now use the seer stone, these instruments of man, this instrument of the cult, to translate the Book of Mormon. And therefore, that's why we don't have as good of a Book of Mormon as you could have had. Had you had the divine spectacles.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] Okay, okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:46:25] Just like a better. Maybe we had a better edition. I think it's really cool.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] No, it is cool. Okay, so four years go by and there's no book. What. What is it? About 18. I know the answer. What is. What is it that's magical about 1827, where all of a sudden a book starts to be created. What changes it from like this promised book in the future to an actual project?

Steven Pynakker [01:46:52] Well, I think part of it is he's got married. Right. And he's got a family before then. Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:59] There was this idea that the jig was up, you know what I'm saying?

Steven Pynakker [01:47:01] Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah. Because at this point, he had. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:04] I mean, treasure digging. I don't.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:06] Treasure digging is over.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] The witness. I'm kind of leading the witness.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:08] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] But I.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:09] Okay, yeah. I mean, at this point. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:11] So he treasure digs from 1823 to 1827. What happens in 1827?

Steven Pynakker [01:47:16] Well, we had the glass liquor trial. Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] For those who don't know.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:19] Okay. So basically. And again, for a long time, the church denied that this ever happened. It was a Protestant minister who was a mentor of Dan Vogel's that uncovered the records in the courthouse.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] Walter?

Steven Pynakker [01:47:29] Yes, I think so. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:30] Leslie Walters.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:30] Yeah. Yep. And. And basically, Joseph Smith was put on trial for doing, you know, this glass looking, treasure digging stuff, which is against the laws like we mentioned in New York. So. And then this is what's so interesting too, is that. So now we have the trial transcripts. And so now we know that this did happen, that he was a treasure digger and that we know the story which you know, so. So the enemies of Joseph were telling a true. A true story about Joseph that was then later confirmed in the 1960s when these documents are found. And so you have. The most interesting thing to me is that you have Joseph Smith senior saying in there that he has this gift and I wish that he would use it for the glory of God or for more good things like religious reasons as opposed to for gain, like filthy lucre. Right. And so I think this then really just makes. It clarifies everything. Now we know what we're doing now. I had this gift. I was using it in A proper way. My father believes I had this gift. And so this is where we make the absolute turn. So maybe this story then is going to become more biblical and it's going to become more religious and now we're moving in a Christian direction. He then is able to move away from the whole treasure digging operation, but still has a gift that his father believes that he has. Joseph believes that he has it. And now it's going to become a different endeavor and it's not going to be about treasure. It's going to be about telling a story very, you know, creating this whole, you know, finally telling the story of

John Dehlin [01:49:11] these plates and bringing people to Christ. But before, but, but before we talk about that, there's two things I want to really highlight about what you just said. Not only did Joseph's dad, Joseph Sr. Still believe that Joseph Jr. Had the power, but so did Josiah stole and he was the center of the, of the trial. And so for me, one thing that comes out of the treasure digging experience and you can look at it kind of from a quasi faithful point of view or a charlatan fraud point of view. From a quasi faithful point of view, you have a lot of people that, that are left believing that Joseph Smith had special powers even though he never found any treasure. Correct.

Steven Pynakker [01:49:56] Josiah made it very clear that he, he should be found out guilty because he really does have these real powers.

John Dehlin [01:50:04] So that shows, that shows the ability to make people think you have special powers even if you don't. And that's, that's real, right?

Steven Pynakker [01:50:13] Yeah, I mean that is, that's very true. I mean, this is, like I said, this happens all the time, really. I mean this is, this certain type of individuals can do this kind of, certain type of charismatic individual can. And there's plenty of people out there that would fall for these kind of things, certainly.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] And that's got to feel great. I mean, who doesn't want to walk around having your peers believe that you have special powers? Like a superhero, right?

Steven Pynakker [01:50:35] Yeah, I mean that's, yeah. I mean that, like I said, we all would have been. Would have taken Joseph's position over the digger.

John Dehlin [01:50:41] So, so Joseph wouldn't, he would have wanted to get rid of treasure digging because he knew he was going to end up up in prison for the rest of his life if he didn't give it up. But he wouldn't want to get rid of the perception that he had special powers. Correct.

Steven Pynakker [01:50:55] And I think the story of the plates is so compelling to so many people that it's the last Vestige that is hanging on that. He hangs on to that, then he's able to pivot.

John Dehlin [01:51:05] It's a pivot.

Steven Pynakker [01:51:06] It's a pivot.

Guest 3 [01:51:06] It's a pivot.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] It's a pivot that allows him to retain the perception that he has special powers and to, quote, use those special powers. No.

Steven Pynakker [01:51:15] Yeah, I mean, that's. I mean, we're. That's definitely appears that would be the case, John. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:20] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:51:20] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:51:21] And then the other thing is, is we have Isaac Hales through. Through a. Another source. We have someone who testifies in an affidavit that they saw Joseph Smith and Isaac Hale together, where Joseph is effectively sobbing, saying, I'm, you know, to Emma's dad. I know I stole your daughter away from you. I know we eloped. I know you think I'm a charlatan. I know you went on those treasure digs with me. You saw that I never got any treasure. And then what? Joseph is reported reportedly telling Emma's dad, Isaac Hale, according to this source, who claims to be a firsthand witness. Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:52:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] I never saw anything to begin with in those. Yeah. In my stone. Am I. Am I right?

Steven Pynakker [01:52:07] Yeah, that's what the affidavit says. Yeah. I mean, this is an early thing and. Yeah. I mean, so that. That's. I mean, this is. You're building a pretty strong case here that, you know, he was probably a con man and he never had these powers. And, you know, and then he's. The jig is up in. In this whole enterprise of treasure digging. So he's got to find a way of. He's got. He's got newly married and he's got. He's got this story that really seems to resonate, and he's got believers. And so. So like we said, that's the pivot.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] And he said four years or 10 years to develop it, depending on.

Steven Pynakker [01:52:40] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:43] And people want. Of course, you know, we made this joke in our. In our Sandra Tanner interview that, like, whenever there's a. A quote that's inconvenient, the church wants to discredit the source or. Or say, oh, it happened too long ago or too long after, or it was an anti Mormon. So the church really wants to always love sources that reaffirm its narrative, like all of us. Confirmation bias. It wants to love the sources that reaffirm the narrative and discredit and dismiss any source. So people want to say, well, whatever that testimony was, first of all, Isaac Hale was incredible because he hated Joseph Smith and The other source of the person that heard Joseph and Isaac talking, maybe that was part of Mormonism unveiled or the hurlbut affidavits. What do you make of the, as an external, I, you know, dispassionate observer of the records, what do you make of that story that somebody heard Joseph sobbing to Isaac saying, I never saw anything in this, in the, in the seer stone?

Steven Pynakker [01:53:43] Well, I think that the idea that the enemies of Joseph were making up stories about him that they could not be found credit, they're not credible. I think you find the court records that pretty much tells everybody that what they were talking about Joseph was accurate. So we know that these, these affidavits have some validity to them and the story just, it gives it credence to, to say that this, look, if we never find those affidavits that they can go along and say this is all made up by Joseph's enemies. But we have those affidavits. We know that much of the lot of the stuff that his enemies were saying about the treasure digging was accurate. So that gives more weight to those other testimonies as well because we, we know that he was a treasure digger and the church was denying that he wasn't. And we have a pretty compelling, another piece of evidence that one can use. And I don't know, it's, it seems like I don't know about that specifically. I think that kind of rings true, you know, when you read it too, it sounds like a real story that happened. And partly too is because if you're an enemy of Joseph, why do you make Joseph seem like such a decent guy in the affidavit he's sorry, he feels bad, he's weeping. If you hate Joseph, I don't know if you make him that human in the story, in the affidavit, that's why I think it rings more true.

John Dehlin [01:55:15] And also we forget that Isaac Hale was a firsthand witness of the treasure digs because he went on the treasure digs with Josiah stole and Joseph because he writes about that in his own witness and it's his own son in law. Like I don't think he wants his son in law to be a horrible human.

Steven Pynakker [01:55:31] Right?

John Dehlin [01:55:32] And they were. Joseph was. That's how Joseph met Emma, is he was boarding with the hails so that he could treasure dig.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] You know what I mean? So like Isaac is a credible witness. And then when you think about why would Joseph be sobbing and apologizing? Well, it's because Joseph would have absconded With Isaac's daughter, eloped, ran away, but then that clearly they didn't. They weren't enjoying their stay in New York. They probably needed money, they probably needed a home. So they had to turn tail, come back and like, come on, Isaac, we need. We're married now. We need a place to stay. But Isaac's like, well, you're involved in a really disreputable business. I don't want you around my home. What's Joseph gonna do?

Steven Pynakker [01:56:16] Yeah, I mean, that, that to me just seems like the most obvious conversation that would have happened. It just, it just seems like it, it. Like you said, he's a reliable witness. And I think if he tells, he could tell the story of Joseph in a much worse way. I think he makes him out to be somebody who seemed to really feel bad about what he was doing and he wanted to patch things up with his father in law, and his father in law portrayed it that way. And it just seems like a real. It just, it's as good of an affidavit as there anything out there about Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] Joseph. And in that explanation, Joseph says, I never saw anything.

Steven Pynakker [01:56:47] Yeah, never saw anything. Yeah, that's. That's the thing, right? Yeah, that's what he said. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:51] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:56:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] So treasure diggings behind us now. Tell us you. This is, this is like the next major part, which is probably the culminating part everybody wants to say. I mean, the narrative is, what is it, 90 days or 100 days? Like, there's no way the Book of Mormon could have been written in 90 days or 100 days. Like that's. But, but first of all, that doesn't, that doesn't count the 10 years prior that he had. Doesn't count all the context that informs the Book of Mormon that we started part one of this episode discussing. And then it doesn't include part two, which is him developing the story in his mind from 1820 all the way to 1827 or 1829, depending on when you're counting. Right. But then, like, he's got three years, he's got 1827, 1830 to produce the book. So how does, what's your view on how he ends up writing the book?

Steven Pynakker [01:57:50] You know, this is another thing where I have a. I can personally see how it would work because I was a very slow typist, so I often would dictate my papers to like, I would have, like, hey, can you, can you dict. Can I dictate this paper to you? In college and, And I had about two or three. Two, three. People that would have done it for me. And I was somebody that I could read a lot of books and take a lot of information from a lot of sources and be able to on the fly, write a paper through dictation. And the person's typing the paper and saying, how are you doing this? How are you able to have all this memory and recollection and even like, even no footnotes? Like, I would. I mean, I. At some point, I don't. I can't do it now, but I could even like get pretty close to the page number of where this footnote was and everything like that. So I had this ability to dictate very quickly and create a college paper in a way that they're like, how did you. How are you able to do that? So I often thought that was always my thing. Like, I. That's how Joseph must have been able to do it. And be able to just create this paper in this way is kind of unusual. I don't know of a lot of people that do that because I was able to dictate, but also have them write a paper very quickly. And I just thought that's one mechanism that Joseph was able to do. And I think that he has this story, it's so alive in his mind that even the next day when they stop off, where he end, he's able to start right at the beginning. Right where they stopped off is according to what the testimony is. I think that he just had this unique capacity. I was around his age, dictating these college papers when he would have been dictating the Book of Mormon. And I just often thought that I had a weird ability to do that kind of thing. And I sometimes wonder if that. That would be my personal experience. Why I have such a connection to Joseph is because I kind of have a feeling on some small level, I think his might have been magnified by a hundred. But I could see this is how he did it. I just felt very confident, just by the way, because everybody was astounded that I could do it. Not everybody. Just a handful of people. And it wasn't something I bragged about. It was just something like. But I thought this is the mechanism. I think this is how it could have been done.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:22] And I think Zan Vogel, when he. He has this numbers that he comes up about how many words and how many hours a day he had to do.

Steven Pynakker [02:00:33] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:33] And Dan Vogel's question is, like, why he didn't do it faster? Like he could have done it way faster.

Dictation Process, Lost 116 Pages, and Oliver Cowdery

John Dehlin [02:00:40] Well, let's. Well, let's talk about that. So, like, what, 1827, what's your, what's your understanding of the history of how the, the, the actual writing of the book begins and, and proceeds?

Steven Pynakker [02:00:50] Well, I mean, this, this would of course be the last 116 pages that he would have been starting on at this point. He'd gotten.

John Dehlin [02:00:56] So his first. Who's his first scribe?

Steven Pynakker [02:00:58] Well, you. The primary, primary scribe for the lost 116 pages was Martin Harris.

John Dehlin [02:01:05] Was Emma first?

Steven Pynakker [02:01:06] But, you know, there's. Emma may have been involved in the first. Yeah. And she. In their handwriting, we know. I think even in the Joseph Smith papers project, they might have even identified some of her in the later documents as well. I could be wrong, but I think they've identified part of it. So she did serve as a scribe, which also then tells us how the translation process happened. And then Martin Harris gets involved. And I think Martin is involved partly because he's funding it as well, but. Yeah, so I was thinking about the Dan Vogel thing about the time scales aren't as impressive as people think that he did this in that short of a period of time. He would only have had to dictate a relatively small amount of words a day over this period of time to realistically have composed this over three years.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:57] Well, I think that over 90 to 90 days, like.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] Yeah, well, let's start with the 116 pages.

Steven Pynakker [02:02:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] So he's, he gets Martin Harris involved. Martin Harris, what, is helping fund it at some level?

Steven Pynakker [02:02:08] Yeah, well, he's the one, he's the guy that has already started to believe or he believes Joseph and he's been giving him some money to help him with his endeavor. And so Joseph includes him in on the translation process. And so Martin gets to be part of this process of translating the Book of Mormon. And that's how he gets involved in the whole thing.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] And what's your understanding of the mechanics of, of his translation with Martin?

Steven Pynakker [02:02:37] Yeah. So, you know, this is where we have the whole idea. Was he using a stone in the hat? Was he using the interpreters, that kind of stuff like that. Now, from, from what Dan Vogel will tell us and I is that from the very beginning he was using the stone in the hat. And part of the reason why we know this is that Martin Harris described the stone and also described how Joseph was able to find things like a needle and literally like a, like a needle in a haystack type kind of situation. So Martin Harris actually testifies to the veracity of the seer stone. And so he Believed it was a, the right instrument. But also we also have Martin Harris attesting to the fact that he had secretly taken the seer stone out of the hat and replaced it with another seer stone. And Joseph of course goes, puts his. Buries his hat in the, his head in the hat and says it's as dark as Egypt here. What's going on? So, so apparently the, the seer stone was used early on in the process. Apparently the, the, the interpreters were not used in this process because Martin Harris seems to attest to the use of the seer stone from the very beginning of the process of translation. And because Jim Martin was testing him too. He, he had to see if he could really do it. And so he was convinced by the power of the seer stone based on the finding of the needle and also that Joseph wasn't fooled by. Wasn't using the wrong rock.

John Dehlin [02:04:04] Would there have been a drape between Joseph and Martin and would plates have been in the room?

Steven Pynakker [02:04:11] Okay, well this, I mean, you know, this is the thing. I think I do believe that at some point in the translation process there were plates in the room. Okay, I don't think it would.

John Dehlin [02:04:22] Let's get to that in the timeline when we.

Steven Pynakker [02:04:24] Okay, that's fine. But the, the standard narrative goes is that there was a curtain between them. Joseph was reading out of the hat and Martin was copying down what he was writing. Yeah. So and, and indications are that at this time there, in many cases there was nothing in the room but Joseph using a hat and reading off the stone.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] Even with Martin. Martin.

Steven Pynakker [02:04:48] Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Martin. I know that there was a, there's a. I think Grant Palmer has an illustration of it in his book of Martin Harris and him doing that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:59] So what do you think? How do you think Joseph is, is producing the text and fooling Martin? And again we're talking about that lost 116 pages. But like if you had to. And we've got William Davis. We've had a. Mormon stories. I'm guessing you've had William Davis.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:15] He's coming out. I haven't read the book yet, so I'm waiting to read.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] Like, do you have a theory on for the 116 pages? Number one, how Joseph was producing the, what would become the text, how he was fooling Martin?

Steven Pynakker [02:05:29] Yeah, I mean I think that it comes down to just his ability to tell the story and, and, and be able to, I think, you know, he was able to dictate the book of Mormon in a way. In. In the way that I was able to dictate these college papers. I think he's just. I mean, he's telling the story. Did he have a 1769 King James Version with him? Well, at this point, we're talking about the later times when he was.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] It would have been a secular. The 160 pages would have been more secular.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:58] That's the argument. Yeah. That the religious part, that the small plates in Nephi were more religious than the original lost 116 pages. And we. And of course, Don Bradley, we've had him on. And it does tell a different narrative of. Of the story. There's some fascinating stories that go on that are outside of that. So. Yeah, that. But now Don advocates that there was more religious stuff in the last 116 pages than some people give it credit for. He thinks there's some lost temple rituals that are in there and stuff like that. But yeah, it was. It was generally considered to be more secular in his secular story.

John Dehlin [02:06:31] Yeah, not as much a religious story.

Steven Pynakker [02:06:33] Yeah, it was more to be. It's more like a history. Right. Which would have been kind of the original intent of what the Book of Mormon was. It was to tell the story of the lost inhabitants of this land. So it seems to have been more like a straight up history than it would have been more of a religious document. That seems to be the indication there.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] And do we know anything? And I should know this, but I don't like, what was the content? Was there an Ephi and Elihi and Elman and Lemuel in the 116 pages? Do we have any indication of what the content was of the 116 pages?

Steven Pynakker [02:07:08] Yeah. So there seems to be some indication that there is Nephi, that they make a landing. According to Don Bradley's. These are stories that people told about the lost 116 pages that were recorded. And then they realized that, wait a second, these aren't in the Book of Mormon. These must have been what's from the lost 116 pages. So Joseph Smith Sr. Relays some story, Martin Harris brother realized some stories from the Book of Mormon. And as I mentioned earlier, they make their landing. And what differentiates this narrative of the Lehi from that of the Book of Mormon is apparently they land and they very quickly encounter ruins of a lost civilization. So it seems to me like the Jaredite narrative was probably going to play a bigger role in the lost 116 pages than it turned out to be. But I think that that was the original intent, was that it was them finding this land and encountering a lost civilization that they don't know anything about and encountering ruins. And it kind of sounds similar to when we came here and encountered the mounds of this story of who are these people, this civilization? And so I think the idea was, is that he was going to tell the civil. The story of the civilization. How, how. Using the Tower of Babel narrative and then also using a more modern story about the. How the Jews got here.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] That makes so much sense because you, if you've got a biblical worldview, you've got to deal with the Tower of Babel scattering, which is the origin of all languages. So you would need in the Book of Mormon some explanation for the Tower of Babel, and then you would need some explanation for the 10 tribes and where they went. And so why are there two peoples? Fundamentally, in the Book of Mormon, it's to explain Tower of Babel and then the last ten tribes.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:04] Yeah, right. Well, it's, it's actually like they say, Joseph Smith may have bit off more than he could chew if he included all 10 lost tribes. So he doesn't. He creates. He has another tribe.

John Dehlin [02:09:14] Remnants.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:14] Yeah, a remnant of. Yeah, a remnant, if you will. But it's, but it's informed by the idea of there being a lost civilization, a lost tribe. He doesn't integrate the 10 lost tribes story into the Book of Mormon, but he, he, he follows a similar parallel. And that's because, honestly, there were just so. Around this period of time in the 1820s, there was this thought that the earth was hollow. And so. And there was this. As a matter of fact, I think it was. Martin Van Buren wanted to send an expedition to the North Pole to go up there because the idea was that there were these lost civilizations in the North Pole. Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:57] I was taught this.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:59] And that the lost 10 tribes were like under the polar ice cap somewhere.

Steven Pynakker [02:10:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:04] I was taught this in seminary.

Steven Pynakker [02:10:06] But this is. People don't realize. This was actually a widespread belief that had mainstream credibility back then. So the argument might be, is that the story would be. Is that. That the 10 lost tribes are up there in that. In. In the hollow Earth. This is another story about another group of Jews who made their way to North America. And this is also the story about how people from the Tower of Babel got here as well. So it takes all three into account.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] Okay. Okay. So it was a more secular account. 116 pages gets created, and obviously Martin Harris loses them with his wife or whatever, and then Joseph. So, so there's he could have just started over. Why didn't he just start over? Because you get the sense that he didn't just start over.

Steven Pynakker [02:10:57] No, he didn't. Because we have what's called the Mosiah priority, where he just started right off where he ended. The lost 116 pages.

John Dehlin [02:11:06] Why wouldn't he have started over?

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:08] Well, I think he was thinking he was. He could retrieve them.

Steven Pynakker [02:11:12] I think that was the initial thing, is that he would get them back. That was the big thing.

John Dehlin [02:11:16] It's like if we can just find him again, I can just continue.

Steven Pynakker [02:11:19] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:19] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:11:20] So he just continues on with the narrative. Right. Where the lost 116 pages are. And. Yeah. And I think that's. That's. So then we go from Mosiah all the way to the end of the Book of Mormon and then goes back and fills in things differently. And we can even see the evolution of the text taking place from Mosiah on. And then if we know that that was written first, then the other stuff in the Book of Mormon then becomes more religious because the Book of Mormon at this point is heading in that direction. And so it's a different story. It's the same timeline, but it's become. I think the story as it's unfolding is becoming more and more about not only the explanation for the lost tribes and all that, but also answers another major question of the day is how is it that the Lord would come and wouldn't and people wouldn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel message in law in lands that we weren't aware of. So now I think as the story is evolving, Jesus coming to the Americas is something that he. He. It probably evolves into that. And then the.

John Dehlin [02:12:32] Maybe he didn't have that in mind when he started the book.

Steven Pynakker [02:12:34] Right. Nor did he have in.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:37] Right. Messiah. I don't think Messiah mentions Jesus coming.

Steven Pynakker [02:12:41] No. It. I think he. He talks about. He's. His is about an old time. He's given a n19th century sermon about repentance. Not. And then John Hamer brought this up to me. Not getting baptized.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:51] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:12:51] So the baptism narrative comes in later in the Book of Mar. Mormon. Right. So King Benjamin is not talking about being born again, repentance and baptism and all this kind of stuff. He's not doing the baptism part. So we can kind of see an evolution of the story that not only do we have Jesus coming to the new world, but now as the story starts evolving, we now are starting to see the formation of a church. The idea of A church being founded. And so at the very end of the Book of Mormon, we have a, basically a, a rules of how do you start up a church and what are the signs of a, of a true church. So then, so you think as he's

John Dehlin [02:13:33] coming to the end of the book before he goes back and writes the beginning, maybe in his own mind he's starting to think, I wonder if this could potentially spin off into a church. Do you think that's possible?

Steven Pynakker [02:13:45] I mean, John Hamer makes a very compelling case. And I tend to think that that's, that it all seems to fall in line with that, you know, where, where that this, about this evolution is happening. I don't know if he's writing the first 116 pages that he's thinking. I don't think he's thinking of starting a church. And I don't think he's thinking about Jesus coming to the new world.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:05] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:14:05] I think that, that the story is leading up to that. And then I think as the story gets more and more complex and he's writing, I think, I think that's what's, that's what happens. I think the story evolves into Jesus coming to the new world and that we're going to start a church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:25] Learning that Messiah was written first really blew my mind because it made a lot of sense of why Mosiah doesn't really talk much about Jesus coming to America. But then when you go back to Nephi, Lehi is talking about Jesus is going to come in 600, like 600 years after we left Jerusalem. And like all of a sudden Lehi knows more about Jesus coming to America than people after him.

John Dehlin [02:14:52] Then the Jews themselves, like David and Solomon, like Lehi knows more about Jesus than the actual Jews 600 years before Jesus came.

Steven Pynakker [02:15:02] And if the lost 116, including his

John Dehlin [02:15:03] name and the ordinances and right, his mom's name and where he was born

Steven Pynakker [02:15:09] and how could the lost 116 pages be a secular history if the whole entire reason for them fleeing from Jerusalem was because of the, not only the impending destruction, but also Lehi is making very clear about Christ and his message and everything like that. I don't think you can write a secular history in the lost 116 pages. If Lehi's doing all that stuff at the very beginning, their whole motivation for coming there was all religious right.

John Dehlin [02:15:40] So in other words, by the end of the book, it's getting super religious. So when you have to rewrite the 116 pages, it starts. Maybe it's most religious because that's the, the rel. The religiosity is just increasing. Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:15:56] Yeah, I think I. And, and, and maybe all of this the reason why the idea that we have a more secular account is that. But if the lost 116 pages are recovered, it would give an explanation as to why the small plates of Nephi cover tell a different story than the lost 116 pages do, too. So it kind of gives you cover with that as well.

John Dehlin [02:16:21] I mean, it is. So this is kind of the south park, you know, Martin Harris dum dum dum, Lucy Harris smart kind of thing, because, like, what a cover. Like, oh, I can't recreate the 116 pages because then people with nefarious intent are gonna. But God foresaw this. And so now I need to write a completely different 116 pages. Like, I mean, could there be a more transparent, like, admission, so to speak, that he wasn't translating? Because if he was translating, he could have just retranslated if he was translating by the gift of power of God. The gift of power of God could have allowed him to create an identical 116 pages. No.

Steven Pynakker [02:17:08] Right, right. That would have been obviously the greatest apologetic there, you know, in favor of him having the power to translate. Like. Like if he did, word for word. Exact. That's not what happens.

John Dehlin [02:17:20] Yeah, yeah. So the fact that he has to invent this whole story about, well, God foresaw this and actually wanted me to create a whole different 116 pages kind of tells everything to me.

Steven Pynakker [02:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:32] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:17:35] So.

John Dehlin [02:17:36] So. So I guess the time period between him starting Mosiah and finishing the manuscript. How many days, months, do you guys. Is it three months or.

Steven Pynakker [02:17:48] Well, he would have had Oliver Cowdery on board. Geraldo. Do you know offhand?

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Well, I guess.

Steven Pynakker [02:17:53] I guess relatively short.

John Dehlin [02:17:54] So after he loses the 116 pages, he doesn't.

Steven Pynakker [02:17:58] Well, he's not translating for a while.

John Dehlin [02:18:01] So what do we make of that? Is that also a pretty obvious thing?

Steven Pynakker [02:18:04] Well, yeah. Is he trying to think of the story, where it's going to go?

John Dehlin [02:18:07] He's got to rewrite.

Steven Pynakker [02:18:08] Yeah, he's got to rewrite the beginning. Well, at this point, he may not be thinking he has to rewrite it. You know, he may still have hope that he doesn't know if he's going to get those pages back or not. So I think he's probably.

John Dehlin [02:18:19] How much time off does he take? I mean, if he's translating by the gift of power of God, he could Just continue. But then he says God took away his power, right?

Steven Pynakker [02:18:27] Well, he was being punished. Yeah, he's being punished. He had the plates taken away. I think at this point, Joseph is probably contemplating, do I want to continue with this? Right. That's the most. I mean, in just secular, naturalistic argument, it just seems like, okay, this was really hard to do and Martin probably wasn't that good of a scribe. And it's like, what the heck am I going to do? Because this took a lot of work to do.

John Dehlin [02:18:59] But also, how am I going to make up for the 116 pages without being shown a fraud? But then how's that going to change the things I still need to write? If the story's already been written, I need to write the remainder of the story taking into account the changes that I now need to make sure to the beginning.

Steven Pynakker [02:19:19] Right?

John Dehlin [02:19:19] That's going to take some.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:21] By the time he's going to write First Nephi and all that, he already has so much practice dictating and coming up with stories that it was pretty easy, I think it would be pretty easy to come up with a story that, oh, now it's not going to be the Book of Lehi. Now it's going to be Nephi retelling all the story that his father told.

John Dehlin [02:19:42] Especially if he's just grabbing Joseph Smith Sr's dream and throwing that in there along with his family by biographical information and a huge chunk of Second Nephi, he's just going to. Let's just add a bunch of Isaiah, you know what I mean?

Steven Pynakker [02:19:54] Well, and the thing is too, is that we have maybe within the narrative of the Book of Mormon, he's able to weave into the story about finding other lost records. So maybe the initial story is that we just have this one set of lost records and this is going to tell the complete story, right? But then in the narrative of the Book of Ether, we find the Book of Ethereum. So now we have found other records that were unknown to us, didn't know they existed. They make their way into the narrative and then we're able then to weave those plates into the story of the Book of Mormon. So now you have a way of there's other records in addition to just the records that he would have had. He has in the story now about coming across other records. So that then there's the small plates

John Dehlin [02:20:46] and the large plates and the sealed plates and the brass plates, right?

Steven Pynakker [02:20:48] So now we have a lot of different sources, right? And we have, of course, we have the plates that they brought from Jerusalem and everything like that. But the idea is, is that they're writing us, they're writing a narrative. Now we've got to add in that other plates from other sources are going to come into the picture. So perhaps you could say that the Book of Ether was an explanation of coming across other plates that then. Now we can integrate to the history. Now we got the small plates of Nephi that we can then put into the story to then explain why this box that held just these records had the complete story.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] He needed a Bridger to kind of mash all that together.

Steven Pynakker [02:21:23] Right. And Richard Bushman believes there are two sets of plates.

John Dehlin [02:21:26] What the.

Steven Pynakker [02:21:31] So, yeah, he does. I mean, so he's convinced of that. So that's where you're at. That there were two separate sets of plates. Now into the narrative, outside of the

John Dehlin [02:21:43] box that Joseph had two sets of plates he was dealing with, he had

Steven Pynakker [02:21:46] access to two sets of plates.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] And Bushman needs that to be true. Why?

Steven Pynakker [02:21:50] Because, again, the story as it's told, everything has to be on those plates that he found the fact. Now, we actually. This is where we have the story of, like, the hall of records gets into the narrative later on. But I think we can find that there's this idea now is starting to come out that not only is there just this box, but there was actually this repository of plates that was also done. So I think that that has to be there. That repository has to be in the story at some point to explain getting the other plates so that they then could add in the beginning part of the lost, the last 116 pages.

John Dehlin [02:22:33] So. So Joseph takes off. How much time before he starts translating again with Oliver Cow.

Steven Pynakker [02:22:39] You know, I'm so terrible with dates and times and stuff like that. I. I'm trying to remember how long do you know? I can't remember.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:45] He retrieves the plates in 27, and he doesn't get published until at least almost.

Steven Pynakker [02:22:51] Yeah, it's completed in 29.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:53] And then it's at least like a. Like a winter and spring.

Steven Pynakker [02:22:57] Yeah, it's a period of time. I'm sorry, my. I'm going blank on that time period, but it is a period of time again, because he needs time to. He needs to figure it out. Yeah, figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:23:06] Grieve and mourn. Figure out the new story.

Steven Pynakker [02:23:09] Find a better scribe.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] Find a better scribe.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:12] Okay. So the whole time Martin was involved, Martin's believing that he's translating plates. Correct in your view?

Steven Pynakker [02:23:20] Yeah, I mean, Martin makes it very clear, and he Talks later on. It was just what a time to be alive and to experience these things. It was just this remarkable period of time that he got to see these things happen. So I believe that Martin definitely believed that scripture was being produced. Absolutely. I also think that. I think perhaps maybe Martin influences the narrative a little bit because of. He was a congregant of Ethan Smith's congregation. And so maybe conversations that Joseph Smith has with Oliver make their way into the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith had this ability to get other people's ideas and make them his own. He had a. He had the ability to do that, whether it was an add in scripture or stuff that he put in doctrines and covenants and stuff like that. So using other people's ideas like Oliver's would have gotten from Ethan Smith probably did find their way in there as well.

John Dehlin [02:24:18] So Jen's googling. Jen, what'd you find?

Guest 3 [02:24:20] Okay, on the church's website, it says there was. There were nine months in between the two.

John Dehlin [02:24:27] So like by the. Between the time that the 116 pages got lost and he recommences with Oliver Cowdery. Nine months?

Guest 3 [02:24:33] Yeah, nine months is what they say.

John Dehlin [02:24:35] Thanks, Jen. Okay. Okay. So he takes that time off. You think Martin believed that Joseph had the gift of power and was really translating when he, when he.

Steven Pynakker [02:24:44] Are we talking about Oliver or Martin?

John Dehlin [02:24:46] Martin.

Steven Pynakker [02:24:47] Oh, Martin. Yeah. Martin definitely believed when you.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] When he recruits Oliver, in your view, was he recruiting a co conspirator or was. Or was he also able to convince Oliver that he had the power?

Steven Pynakker [02:24:58] Yeah, I think Oliver's convinced. I think that. Yeah, I think Oliver was a believer, dude. Yeah, I think, though, but this is like I was just mentioning, because we were kind of distracted here for a second, was that I think that Joseph has this ability to get other people's ideas. And so I think that maybe Oliver Cowdery sits under Ethan Smith as a pastor and perhaps Oliver is telling him stories of. Or telling him about the view of the Hebrews and giving him like, ideas.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] Yeah, Dark skin, light skin stuff, right?

Steven Pynakker [02:25:34] Yeah, all this kind. Maybe this starts getting into the narrative. But again, that would explain why then

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:40] it later comes up on first Nephi and stuff. Because, I mean, Oliver had already been.

John Dehlin [02:25:47] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:47] Start as a scribe.

Steven Pynakker [02:25:48] Yeah. So I think that. So he's probably weaving maybe some of Oliver's ideas into the narrative as they're just having conversations and talking and that kind of makes its way into the Book of Mormon as well. And then that's how Ethan Smith's view, the Hebrews becomes maybe another influence on the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] And Oliver's like, whoa, that stuff you're revealing. I believe that, too. That's what I think.

Steven Pynakker [02:26:09] Right.

John Dehlin [02:26:10] It's like validating Oliver. Oliver. That Joseph is basically feeding back to Oliver what Oliver told Joseph.

Steven Pynakker [02:26:17] Yeah, Yeah, I think. Yeah. I mean, that's. That. That seems to be his modus operandi, is to restate what other. Restate things other people said back to them and as confirmation that. That this is a true document. Right. Or this is a true prophecy. I think he had an ability to do that by using their own words and. And just re. Packaging it back to them.

John Dehlin [02:26:41] So the total time frame from Oliver beginning the translation to the full thing being, you know, written. Do we know how long that is?

Steven Pynakker [02:26:50] She's going to look it up. I'm so terrible with the. The dates. Those are. It's.

John Dehlin [02:26:55] I want to say it's like 100 days.

Steven Pynakker [02:26:56] Yeah, it was. It was a very relatively short period of time. And so that's the.

John Dehlin [02:27:00] That's the. That's the constrained time period.

Steven Pynakker [02:27:03] Yeah, that.

John Dehlin [02:27:04] That Quentin Cook and others just want to say no, no, period. Mic drop, miraculous book. Because the Book of Mormon could never have been written in 100 days or whatever.

Steven Pynakker [02:27:14] And that goes 85. 85 days.

John Dehlin [02:27:17] And so you're. So how would you respond to that? That there's no way that that book could have been written in 85 days?

Steven Pynakker [02:27:24] Well, I think, first of all, like we talked about Dan Vogel, he makes a pretty compelling case that the actual amount of words that you would be typing or writing down every day.

John Dehlin [02:27:32] Six pages.

Steven Pynakker [02:27:32] Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't that huge amount. Amount of. Of that would have been done. And I think that Joseph just. He talked really fast. I think he kind of had this, like, manic ability to really tap into telling a story. So I think he's probably talking like this and then. And then Maron. I did this. And they're talking and they're almost trying to keep up as the story is just coming out of them very quickly, and they're writing these things down. And I think that in his mind he is channeling something, that he is actually telling a story in some way. I think he's believing the story that he's. He's. He's been telling all along.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] I mean, the fact that he starts with Mosiah shows that he had already written the book in, if not notes somewhere in his head.

Steven Pynakker [02:28:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:18] Because why would he start with Mosiah? Why would he. Why would he Start over. Like, to me, either an outline or a manuscript or a mental conceptualization of the book had already been completed, needed, or he would have just started over.

Steven Pynakker [02:28:31] Yeah, I honestly. I think it. I honestly think it was all in his head.

John Dehlin [02:28:34] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:28:34] I really think that's why we. Because we don't really, like. People say, well, he had notes in the hat.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:39] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:28:39] And he did this and that. I don't. I don't think that was the case. I think it was all up here. I think he had this ability to. To really. I think. I think it was just a genius.

John Dehlin [02:28:49] And do we have a sense for whether he was. He was more productive in terms of pages per day with Oliver than he was with Martin? Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:28:57] I mean, Oliver was just so much better. I mean, that's. That's why he settled on Oliver, because he. Well, Oliver was. He was a better educated man. He was trained, and he probably was able to keep up better with Joseph. You know, it's probably frustrating for Joseph when he was dealing with Martin that. I mean, there's a reason why he doesn't get back Martin back into the picture is because he found somebody.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:19] I was taught, because Martin was punished, because.

Steven Pynakker [02:29:21] Well, and he lost pages, and he doesn't want him to lose those pages because Martin did lose him the first time. So I wouldn't trust him near him either.

John Dehlin [02:29:29] Yeah. Okay. So with Oliver, within 90 days, he writes Mosiah to Moroni, and then he has to go back and do Nephi

Steven Pynakker [02:29:41] to the first like this. They think that he started off, like, at the second or third chapter of Mosiah, then goes back and then ends up finishing up from there. So.

John Dehlin [02:29:52] Yeah, and there's pretty decent. Is there some sort of word analysis that shows that things that. Like, there's something wrong with the narrative in terms of what words or ideas show up in the first part of the book, they clearly were written later that somehow. Do you even know what I'm asking? Like, when you do historical analysis, you can find clues of words that. That sometimes show that. That things aren't quite how they're being portrayed, kind of like historical criticism. And so I guess I'm asking, are the things appearing in Nephi to Mosiah that kind of shouldn't be there if it was written first? Do you know what I'm saying?

Steven Pynakker [02:30:42] Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. And actually, there was. There was one. One as you were talking, there was one rattling in my mind. And I'm trying to pull it out now out of the data banks because There is, there is a, an example of that. That something makes its way. Shouldn't be there right at the, at the beginning. And if I, if I can think of it, I'll let you know because I do. I have encountered that, that, that, that seems to be.

John Dehlin [02:31:06] I wish I was more informed to be able to even ask an articulate question.

Steven Pynakker [02:31:09] I just wish I could remember as much as I've read. I, I wish to. You know, I've forgotten a lot too. But there was definitely, there is definitely some stuff in there that seems to indicate that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] That it.

Steven Pynakker [02:31:24] I agree. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] All right. So for you, the fact that it was written in 90 days or 80 days or whatever, for you, is this, for you, there's a secular explanation for that?

Steven Pynakker [02:31:37] Yeah, I'm just, I'm wearing my secular hat right now and I would say that. Yeah. I mean, just that the ability to do this was there. He, he was, he seemed to. And it just proves that if we look at his later writings, he was, he was, he, he was articulate. He mostly did dictating some of the stuff. I mean, I guess what makes the Book of Mormon so interesting is that there really is some beautiful stuff in there and some pretty well written things. Some of it's aping the Bible, some of it's original to the, to the Book of Mormon. So let give props there. I, I think that though, if we look at other books that have been produced like the Uran, the Urantia book and other books that have been dictated, we, we know that just purely in a materialistic worldview, that the idea that somebody could have a ton of. To be able to write a manuscript like this is, Was perfectly within the realm of the natural, that it could be created that way.

John Dehlin [02:32:38] Isn't it called automatic writing?

Steven Pynakker [02:32:39] Yeah, automatic writing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:40] You know.

Steven Pynakker [02:32:41] Yep. Yep. And he's not. Yeah. And. And sometimes it's, I mean, it's, it. Some of the processes are different than others, but it does, it does seem to indicate that he had some form of that. That was probably going on. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:54] Yeah. And I, I think it's important to mention William Davis's kind of theory. I don't want to spoil the book for you.

Steven Pynakker [02:33:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:04] But if you look at, you know, the introd, the introduction of each chapter. Yep. It's like this happens and then this happens and this happens and then this happens. William Davis wants to argue that those are like, called the bones.

Steven Pynakker [02:33:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:33:17] That that pastors or people who gave sermons would kind of have a little outline structure that they would use to give our multi hour long sermons that maybe he would have used that sort of. He would have acquired that practice when he was an exhorter. Yep. That he would have been able to have on a piece of paper, maybe even a piece of paper in the hat that would have sort of outlined what we're going to be talking about for the next few hours. And he would have been able to see that. And then from those little bones which actually appear in the headings of the chapter headings, he would have been able to use those as cues to kind of guide.

Steven Pynakker [02:33:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:58] His story, his oration.

Steven Pynakker [02:34:00] I've read a little bit of his book and I've talked to Christopher Thomas about it because Christopher's good friends with him him. And that seems to be like, it really makes sense because you know, I'm an extemporaneous speaker. So like I, I won in the Christian high school awards best extemporaneous speaker in the state.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] Of course you did.

Steven Pynakker [02:34:19] Yeah. Of course you did. So all I, I just need just a little bit, just give me a little bit to work with and I can weave you, I can we weave something for you. And this is very similar to what the. They were doing in the frontier. That's why John Hamer says, you know, we got, we got examples of sermons being given and so it's the same process. So most of the time these pastors might just have a couple things written down.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:47] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:34:48] And these would be cues for them. But because they already, they know the Bible so well and they are, they're steeped in this whole world that they just need a couple bullet points to talk for 20 minutes on just one of the. Or an hour on it and just extend her to extend. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:10] Wearing you down.

Steven Pynakker [02:35:11] Yeah. I think lunch is, we need lunch soon. But yeah, that, that, that definitely it, that's how I would approach it because that's how I did it. You know, I mean I just need a couple, a couple bullet points. I go to somebody, you know, like just give me, give me the subject. Okay. This is a subject. Give me five minutes, I'll have a 15 minute speech for you. No problem. Could do that all day.

John Dehlin [02:35:32] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:35:32] Without any thought.

John Dehlin [02:35:33] And he would have had time between the sessions of translation to develop the next part of the story.

Steven Pynakker [02:35:40] Yeah, right. I mean, I think, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] I mean he wasn't doing it all day long every day.

Steven Pynakker [02:35:43] Right.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:35:44] Yeah. And I just think all you, all he needed was a couple cues and that's what he had to work on. And yeah, you can definitely see I. I can see how it can be done. I. It's not implausible that that's. That's how it was done. I think that's actually one of the best new theories out there that kind of whittles down some. You know, they say one of the strongest arguments against the Book of Mormon, there's like five or seven different explanations how they came to be. And this perhaps whittles. Whittles down some of those. And this will probably be the standard narrative against the faithful one that will probably stand the test of time, based on the little I've read on it and getting feedback from other people on it, that this will be Bill Davis's research. Visions in a Seer Stone is going to be the counter narrative to the faithful one.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] Yeah. So it's kind of like 10 years to develop the stories.

Steven Pynakker [02:36:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:36:29] Right. All the context that goes into it. King James Bible sitting there. He'll do a little planning, put his little outline together, go into the translation, tell the stories based on the outline that he probably brings in. Then they pause. Then he goes back, takes a rest, goes into the woods, whatever. Plans, takes a nap, whatever, goes to bed, puts together his new outline, comes back the next day, does six more pages or whatever, rinse and repeat over 90, 100 days, and you write the book. Is that. Is that.

Steven Pynakker [02:37:06] I mean, yeah, I mean, you dictate, you dictate. And this is the thing. I think the key thing is, is that he had thorough knowledge of the subject, just like those ministers had thorough knowledge of the Bible, and they were able to. And because they were in conversation with the text, Joseph Smith was in conversation with the story in his head. So all he had to do was just. Because he knew the Bible, because he knew the world that he created so well, all he had to do was just. He's able to tap into it at any time. He just needed a couple of reminder points and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I think that's a very, very likely explanation as to what happened there.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] And then I think the final, really important piece that I think Mormons forget is that the manuscript that he and Oliver produced is not in any way, almost not recognizable with. Compared to the version of the state of the Book of Mormon that we read today. There's no chapters, there's no verses, the grammar's horrendous, the spelling's horrendous, and there's been even grammatical changes to make it sound less like a hick country bumpkin dictated it. And then I Did this and then I did it. That.

Steven Pynakker [02:38:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:24] If you read the original, you know, the remnants of the original transcript, it's not a high quality dictation or narrative, am I right?

Steven Pynakker [02:38:36] Yeah, that's, that's one of the things that people who have been from the outside who've done a textual analysis of the Book of Mormon will tell you that it, it's not as impressive as it appears in its finished product that we have today. That it does sound like kind of like a rube dictating things. I've heard that from other people and I've read some examples of it and it, and some have even said it almost sounds like, like a little bit of Appalachia gets its way into the Book of Mormon as well. So it, the document itself was, was, has been thoroughly cleaned up almost from the beginning. Whether it was from the original manuscript. Then we go, it's cleaned up a little bit with the printer's manuscript and then it gets cleaned up a little bit in 1837, gets cleaned up again in 1840. And then, and then the church 1981 did some more changes. So we have this progressive changing of the Book of Mormon that it sounds, it gives, it's, it looks and sounds better, more professional and more professional than the actual document that we have that was that Joseph Smith was dictating. So yeah, I mean it, it becomes, like I said, I've had outsiders look at it most non believing. Well, all people who are not believers in the Book of Mormon when they are engaging the original manuscript are not all that impressed by it.

John Dehlin [02:39:52] Right, right. But we're comparing, we're thinking about the 90 days with the version of the Book of Mormon that we have now. That's had literally decades, if not a century and a half of edits and refinement.

Steven Pynakker [02:40:05] Yeah. And albeit so many will point out, a lot of them are minor. And that's, that's true. But it is definitely a much. It sounds and looks different than the original manuscript. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:18] Yeah. Okay. For me, this is my last main question. I think everybody's tired and wanting to go get lunch. You mentioned that you believe there were plates in the room.

Steven Pynakker [02:40:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] Do you believe that Moroni delivered golden plates and the golden plates that Joseph received from Moroni were in the room.

Steven Pynakker [02:40:37] So.

John Dehlin [02:40:38] Well, if we're just yes or no.

Steven Pynakker [02:40:39] No, you can't do yes or no.

John Dehlin [02:40:42] Why not?

Steven Pynakker [02:40:44] Well, you know, so if I, if I'm speaking as atheist Steven, who doesn't believe in the supernatural, of course they weren't given to him. By an angel. Right. Okay. Of course not. It was. But even Christian.

John Dehlin [02:40:59] Now, Steven doesn't believe Moroni gave Joseph Smith golden plates. Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:41:02] Well, see, this is where we come in, enter into the realm of faith claims and truth claims. And this is why. See, I look at it this way. Dan Vogel believed there were plates, and Richard Bushman believed that there were plates,

John Dehlin [02:41:15] but Dan doesn't believe there were golden plates.

Steven Pynakker [02:41:17] No, but this is my point. This is where faith comes into the story, where faith claims. This is where we have the natural world and the supernatural world kind of collide. Right. So I just say it's kind of like how you go about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Right. There's an empty tomb. Either he rose from the grave or his body was stolen.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:46] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:41:48] Those could be the two main explanations. That's where faith comes in. Right.

John Dehlin [02:41:53] So before you give the apologetic, faithful version, give the secular version. That would be Dan Vogel's explanation or yours.

Steven Pynakker [02:41:59] Okay, so. Well, Dan Vogel believes that they were made from common tin, that they were constructed. And so that explains why the. The rustling. And people felt them, and they felt like pages in the tin and stuff like that, but that's why they weren't allowed to look at them and stuff like that. So that would be Joseph Smith or somebody collaborated with him. They made plates from common tin. He kept them in the box. People couldn't see them, they could just hear them and they could feel them through a frock. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:25] That's.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:25] That's the basic.

John Dehlin [02:42:26] Because conveniently, he kept them covered because then otherwise he would have had to etch characters into these tin plates.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:32] Right.

John Dehlin [02:42:32] So just miraculously, he's told he has to put a cover over them. Right, Right. So they could feel plates, but he wouldn't have to actually do the work. Work to write, to etch in the. The script. Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:43] So, yeah, that would be. Right. Obviously, that's the main thing. And then, of course, Bushman believes there are real plates delivered by an angel.

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:50] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:51] So those. So I always tell people, this is where you're. You're confronted with what's under that frock. Something that was constructed by a man or something that was given to you by an angel. And then that's where faith comes into the story. Right. Because one of the most interesting things that I found is that they found this Josiah Stowell story that he actually saw the plates. And Josiah Stowell has kind of been burned. I mean, he's a believer, but he did get. You know, he kind of was kind of screwed over with this whole treasure digging thing and all this kind of stuff. Right. And if I'm Josiah Stowell, I think this is kind of an apologetic thing. But if I'm Josiah Stowell and I catch a glimpse of those plates and they look like common tin, he would recognize it right away and would have just walked away. So I always say, that's why there's always this other narrative that I find fascinating, is that naturalistically, they were probably homemade. Boy, Josiah Stowell, he saw those plates, and you would think at that moment he would have recognized the con right there, and he didn't. And I just find that. And. And I find that very interesting. I just find that's one of those little, Little apologetic pieces I find fascinating.

John Dehlin [02:44:05] Wasn't stole. Wasn't. Just. Wasn't Isaac Hale. Wait, Josiah stole or Isaac Hale saw the plates?

Steven Pynakker [02:44:16] Well, this was

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:19] Isaac Hill said he couldn't see the plates.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:22] Yeah, he couldn't.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:23] So that's why he threw them out. Pretty much. That you can't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:28] Here.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:28] And Josiah stole. What happened was that Joseph handed them to him through a window and they were covered and he caught a glimpse of them and he saw them.

John Dehlin [02:44:38] But he's the one that always believed Joseph had the power.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:41] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [02:44:42] So he was disposed to be a believer.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:43] Maybe, but if it was.

John Dehlin [02:44:44] What do you mean? Maybe he testified.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:46] I know that, but I'm just saying if it was just common tin, you would think at that point he would have had that realization that this is common tin. Right, That's.

John Dehlin [02:44:57] I mean, but faith is very resilient. So, like, how many Jehovah's witnesses? Oh, 1818 or 1820. Jesus is going to come. 1820 comes and goes. And then they just reinterpret their beliefs to it. And that could be like, belief is resilient.

Steven Pynakker [02:45:13] Yeah, it's very resilient. And that could be anything.

John Dehlin [02:45:15] It's resilient.

Steven Pynakker [02:45:16] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:45:16] And.

Steven Pynakker [02:45:16] But I have to just say, again, this was a naturalistic explanation. But I also have to say that, you know, I am a believer, so I also have to take into account that certain things as well. I can't just go and just go full naturalistic on the Book of Mormon and then say, and I'm a Christian and I got this book.

John Dehlin [02:45:37] Well, we're coming to that.

Steven Pynakker [02:45:38] Right. But so I do feel like, see, I'm one of those people I look at this way. I'm the kind of person that if somebody is being talked about in the room and that person isn't there to defend themselves. I'm the person that's inclined to step in and defend them. And so I almost feel like sometimes times. That's just part of my nature.

John Dehlin [02:45:55] I get it. But. But Steven Pinecker today. Where do you come down on the plates? Golden plates, tin plates, golden plates delivered by Moroni, tin plates fashioned by Joseph. Where do you come down?

Steven Pynakker [02:46:07] Well, I guess I would have to lean towards them being 10 plates. Right. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:11] That's your external view.

Steven Pynakker [02:46:13] Yeah. Yeah. But again, I. But if a Mormon wants to go to me and say there's more evidence for the coming forth the. The. The plates than there is for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have to at least take pause.

John Dehlin [02:46:26] Sure. Okay. All right. So to summarize your overall assessment of the Book of Mormon,

Steven Pynakker [02:46:38] I'm a big fan of it myself. I spoke at a Book of Mormon rally this past fall. So I. I think that there's a lot that can be taken out of it. And the reason why I'm a big fan of the Book of Mormon, actually, is because of my exercise of bridge building, which is for Too long, for 200 years, evangelicals have been persecuting the Mormons, and all of a sudden, vice versa. Right. And we just. We're at a standstill. And part of, I feel, is my mission is to build bridges amongst groups. And to me, the Book of Mormon is a very Protestant, very Christian book. And so I kind of like a lot of what's in there. I agree with a lot of the doctrine that's in the Book of Mormon. So I think that the Book of Mormon is the one place that evangelicals and Mormons can have civil conversations. And I'm all about in this time, it's not civil, and nobody's talking to each other. And I think it's just important that if we can find some commonalities where we can have conversations. That's what I mean to me, I think the mission of my channel is to show that you can talk to everybody, be fair, be kind to people, and I want to use the Book of Mormon to have conversations with Mormons about Jesus. About Jesus. Yeah. Because I love Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:48:01] Yeah. All right. I think we did it. Gerardo, any. Any final questions or anything?

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:10] No.

John Dehlin [02:48:11] Did we wear you out, Harold?

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:12] It was great.

Steven Pynakker [02:48:14] I started getting lightheaded about a half hour ago. I was like, I need to eat something.

John Dehlin [02:48:17] I could feel it. I could feel. But I'm not. You know me. I'm just not quitting.

Steven Pynakker [02:48:20] No, that's fine.

John Dehlin [02:48:21] I love.

Steven Pynakker [02:48:22] Dude, I'm loving every minute of this is so awesome.

John Dehlin [02:48:25] So, Gerardo, you got everything you wanted from this?

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:27] Yeah, yeah, I think it was great.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] Where do you come down, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:32] What's my personal opinion?

John Dehlin [02:48:33] Tin plates made by Joseph. Gold plates delivered by an angel.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:38] Well, I think it was Mark Elwood who introduced this idea that. To me that maybe there were different sets of plates at a different time. So maybe by the time he shows them or he's gonna have the witnesses have them, he has a more refined, nicer looking plates. So I. I like that. I like that. That story.

John Dehlin [02:49:00] And by the way. And then I'm about to ask you. But by the way, I've talked to Maxine Hanks, who's a believer. There's a. There's a progressive Mormon believer perspective that Joseph Smith did manufacture tin plates, but he did that because people wouldn't believe. He did that to help people believe what he still believed was true, which was that there was. There were Nephite and Lamanite civilization. That he was channeling revelation from God to produce the Book of Mormon, but that he needed to create plates and the story of the plates so that people would believe.

Steven Pynakker [02:49:38] Yeah. In other words, it puts it on the people. I had to do this.

John Dehlin [02:49:43] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:49:44] In order to tell this story because you needed tangible things. You couldn't take it on faith, so you needed a tangible thing. So it's almost like. Yeah, you know, I had to do it.

John Dehlin [02:49:53] It.

Steven Pynakker [02:49:53] Because the story is true, it had to be told, and I had to manufacture these plates as a result of that. And. And I can see that even being his motivation, that he knew that nobody would believe him unless he had something tangible.

John Dehlin [02:50:05] Yeah. All right, Jen, you get the final word. Did you already know all this stuff was this interesting?

Guest 3 [02:50:11] I didn't know all of this. It was actually really interesting. I actually had to, like, pause from getting emotional at one time.

Steven Pynakker [02:50:20] Why?

Guest 3 [02:50:21] Because I didn't know so much. And it's. I. That's what it's been hard in the faith crisis is like, just not being told a lot. And so. Yeah. So sometimes I had to pause for a second and be like, why? Like, why does it. Why do we not know any of this? Why is this not told to so many people? So sorry.

John Dehlin [02:50:51] Because you're. Because your faith crisis happened just two years ago, Right.

Guest 3 [02:50:55] Year and a half.

John Dehlin [02:50:55] Year and a half.

Guest 3 [02:50:56] Yeah. A year and a half ago.

John Dehlin [02:50:57] Do you remember a couple of the things said that were like. Like bricks to your head? Like, whoa, I didn't know that. Do you remember any of the ones that really struck you as you wish you had known.

Guest 3 [02:51:07] Yeah. That there was. That the word revelation was like, used to and. Or restoration. Thank you. Restoration was used in common. I was taught, like, this. This is the only time. Like, this was the only. The restoration there was. Yeah. There was no other, you know, restoration or even talk of that word or anything going on at that time. That one. That one threw me. I think that's when I got emotional for a second because. Because it's just the stories and what's been told. I didn't know about someone else going to the hill with him and then talking about these spectacles. And there's just so many things that are new to me that I'm learning here. I felt like I had done a really good deep dive, you know, when my faith first. First when it all foreshadowed for me. But I just keep. And I keep. I think, to be honest, it's because I have, like, this hope inside of me still that, like, something was, like, good or something was true or something about the whole story. And I keep, like, having this hope. Maybe there's something to hold on to. And then I just keep learning thing after thing after thick thing that the church has, like, kept from people within the church or like, as they are learning about the church, like, converts. And I just think why, like, they can make. They can make. If they chose to, they could make something so beautiful. Beautiful out of it, like, out of the church. But they're just choosing not to. They're just choosing to continue to, like, not tell the truth and lie and twist things and. And, you know, put money in places they shouldn't be instead of helping people and building this corporation. And I think if they took a moment and like, brought it back to maybe Joseph just having a. Being connected to God and writing this story and what can we pull from it that's beautiful and turning the whole narrative into something that can actually be good on this earth, then how amazing is that? Like, how great is that? But that's not what they're choosing to do. And it just. I think it just kind of hurts me every time I learn. Learn something new. It just kind of hurts like this. What I feel like is like the soul in me. And I wish that they could maybe just be more like Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [02:54:06] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:07] Wow.

Guest 3 [02:54:09] Sorry, that was a. Jen.

John Dehlin [02:54:11] No apologies, Jen.

Guest 3 [02:54:12] Tangent for a second there. Mormon story. Mormon story listeners.

John Dehlin [02:54:17] Yeah, that was Jim bringing the heart. Heart and the truth.

Steven Pynakker [02:54:22] This is when it becomes real. Right. You know, I used to think back in the day, I'D be like, while you guys were singing praise to the man, I was reading about the stone in the hat, and you had no idea, you know, and so that's the conundrum I'm in. Because I forget. I often forget that people don't know what I know. And part of me feels really bad for you. Right? I mean, because this man. See, this is when it becomes too real for me. It's real. This is real. And I just want to let you know that, you know, as a Christian, I just wanted to reach out to you and just let you know that Jesus is real and he loves you. And I just want you to think and contemplate on him. Him. I'm not here to proselytize, but I just want you to consider. Consider Jesus and follow. Just look. Look his direction and consider. If you're looking for good, if you're looking for beautiful, if you're looking for purpose, then look to Jesus. And I think he can. He can get you through this.

Guest 3 [02:55:41] I appreciate your words. I appreciate your words. And I. And that, I feel like, is what I'm doing right now in my life. I'm just picking up each piece one at a time and not trying to be hurried about it and not trying to, you know, listen to someone else tell me what I should do and what I should believe and anything like that. I'm just taking each piece and going within to see what feels right, right for me.

Steven Pynakker [02:56:05] Do what, Do. Do you. You do you. And you follow the path that you need to feel and don't even take what I told you to. To do, just just to consider the words.

Guest 3 [02:56:15] Yeah, definitely. And I appreciate you and what you're saying.

Steven Pynakker [02:56:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:56:23] Oh, and. And you know, as someone who was never raised Mormon, let me tell you a little bit more about Mormonism. Steven Pytorch. It's a joke. We just had a master class from someone who's never been Mormon, who knows more about Mormonism than all of us will ever know. So thank you, Steven. Wow, Heineker. That was. That was beautiful. That's powerful. Someone's gotta write a book on how the Book of Mormon was created. A secular view. Nobody. Has anyone ever done that. It's so weird that we don't have at least a few books because even you were rusty on some of the dates, some of the timelines, or that thing about words appearing in the earlier part of the book that shouldn't be there. Somebody should write this book, don't you think?

Steven Pynakker [02:57:11] Yeah, Well, I think like you said, Bill Davis is kind of leading us in that direction.

John Dehlin [02:57:17] You think he might be working on that book?

Steven Pynakker [02:57:18] Well, I think that that will. That book will be where all the future scholarship will come from.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:24] What he wrote.

Steven Pynakker [02:57:25] What he wrote, the visions in the series.

John Dehlin [02:57:26] What I'm tired of, though, is like. Like all glory be to Jeremy Runnels. You know what I mean? But, like, nobody's writing the books that really provide the explanations that an average Mormon like me or Jen could just read and really get the facts. It's a bunch of scholarly stuff that's way too technical and way too deep for anyone to understand, or super apologetic stuff that has no credibility, or it's anti Mormon or it's anti Mormon. But nobody is just going, here's the evidence. Here's how the Book of Mormon was likely written based on the best scholarship we have. Here are the problems with the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. From anachronisms start to finish in the Book of Mormon, here's just a really good explanation of the Book of Abraham and the problems with it that. You know what I mean? Nobody's. Nobody's writing those books. Why is no one writing those books?

Steven Pynakker [02:58:21] Well, I mean, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:58:23] How about this? Here's a pro. Here are the problems with Joseph Smith's polygamy. Like, we asked Sandra Tanner, right? What book should I read? And she's like, well, there's Todd Compton. Yeah, but that's just a bunch of narratives of all the different wives. And then there's George Smith. And she's like, you got to read like three or four different other books to kind of like, why isn't there a book on, like, Joseph Smith's polygamy start to finish, and why it was a problem? You know what I mean? Nobody's written that book.

Guest 3 [02:58:48] Maybe Stephen should do that, because I do. I did appreciate how you were like, here's the story, here's what I believe. But here's maybe another interpretation that could also go with all of the facts, you know, that were about that time period. Like, someone needs to write just a book that has those for each each time period, kind of of Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:13] I wish there was a timeline. You know, that's what I.

John Dehlin [02:59:16] Okay, wait. Because there is a timeline. So. So there have been versions of what I'm talking about. So Jeremy Runnels did it, but before him there was Mormon Think. Let's add these to the. To the show notes. So there's Mormon think, which was really one of the first to try and do this. And it's an amazing resource that almost no one talks about now. Now there's also letter to my wife or letter from my wife which is, which, which is amazing. And also my friend Mike Brown wrote a bunch of essays on all the truth claims. And you can go to mormonstories.org and you can go to the truth claim section and you could read really thoughtful essays on all these different topics. And Gerardo, it includes a timeline. Did you know that There's a really good time.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:00] I just, I forgot about it and I just pulled it up.

John Dehlin [03:00:03] I remembered and let's include that in the show. Notes, notes as well. The timeline that my friend Mike Brown put together. But the problem is like even you, Gerardo, who works with me, forgot that the timeline even exists. There needs to be like a book or like five books or 10 books, like a series that's like all the major Mormon truth claims covered in a book. That's, that's credible, that's non anti Mormon. That's not polemics. That's really based on the history, but that lays out the facts and lays out a reasonable explanations for all the different things and why they're problems and if they want to end with what the faithful response is and then the problems with the faithful response, that's what Mormon think was trying to do. But we don't have it in like book form or tangible form so that it can really be propagated.

Steven Pynakker [03:00:53] Yeah, right. Yeah, no, it's a good point. I think that, you know, I think what I think is important, like what Christopher Smith did with his book, I mean Christopher Thomas did with his book was that he at the very end of it gave. This is the explanation that Joseph Smith gave of the coming forth. So it's the earliest document, one of the earliest documents of Joseph Smith talking about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. That's a chapter. And then Christopher Thomas writes the standard narrative that counteracts it. So you could have that as part of all these books so that you can include the faithful and include the counter narrative as part of it. Have the, the timeline and all that stuff in there. I think that would be a valuable resource. I guess the question is, is like who's going to fund it? Who's. Who's the audience for? Are faithful Mormons interested in it and are Christians interested in it? You know, who's going to be the audience that's going to read these books? But I think that that would be a valuable resource, maybe even a website that even does something like that. More, More that. But yeah, I think there needs to be more of that because I have tons of books. But it's all this information you got to glean from all these different places. It'd be nice just to have kind of like a standard third timeline that addresses all these things.

John Dehlin [03:01:57] Yeah. To Jen's point.

Steven Pynakker [03:01:58] Right.

John Dehlin [03:01:59] People. People are giving decades of their lives, 10% of their income, making major life decisions about education, about careers, about number of children to have, about who to marry, about when to marry, when to have children. What's that?

Guest 3 [03:02:15] When to have children or education.

John Dehlin [03:02:17] Yeah. And, and, and, and, and they deserve to have the basic facts in an accessible, credible way. And we still haven't figured out how to deliver that Mormon think does a good job. Letter from my wife, CES letter, the. The truth claims essays on Mormon stories. All those get there, but we haven't figured out how to. CES letter has done better than anyone else to deliver it en masse, but it, but it's pretty. It covers a pretty small subset of the things people kind of really need to know. Right?

Steven Pynakker [03:02:52] Yeah, yeah. It's been probably. How long has the CES letter been out for now?

John Dehlin [03:02:56] I think it came out around 2014.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:59] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [03:02:59] So probably the last time I read the CES letter was around 2014 or so. So. Yeah, I mean. Yeah. I mean, and then there's some criticisms that people make of the CES letter that I think are valid, but overall, I think it. It tells a pretty compelling story. And for a lot of people, it's like the first time they've ever encountered these facts. And then, of course, that brought upon the Gospel Topics essays and all that kind of stuff, too. Yeah, there's just, you know, the Gospel

John Dehlin [03:03:24] Topics essays, actually, before. Yeah. That was more Hans Matson and lots of others.

Steven Pynakker [03:03:30] 2010. 2012 is when they came out. Right. Right around there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:32] Well, 2013. No. No. So what happened? This. There's a whole Mormon stories episodes about this, but it's like Hans, you know, Russell rolling comes out out warm stories, comes out warm, I think comes out. Hans Matson loses his faith around 2000, you know, 2010. Ish. And then the Swedish rescue happens, and then Marlon Jensen gets involved and I get involved. Greg Princip gets involved, Travis Strafford gets involved. And then Marlon Jensen uses all of this to convince their brethren to do the Gospel Topics essays. And then. Yeah. Jeremy Reynolds, CES letter comes out after the Gospel Topics has to. It already started coming out. And that's just. It's just an, you know, but Jeremy's a legend and CS letters legendary.

Steven Pynakker [03:04:19] Yeah, that's had quite an impact. I mean, I, I mean the fact is, is that the church has to have a better narrative because they're losing people because they're getting exposed to CES letter. And I think, like I keep on, I go on my show all the time. I said, it's your birthright to know your history. That's your birthright.

John Dehlin [03:04:38] Right.

Steven Pynakker [03:04:38] And it's the birthright for Christians to know their history. See, we don't. We're often given a distorted view of things as well. We have a whitewashed history too. We don't know a lot of the facts about the Bible or some of the scholarship and some of the issues where kept things are kept from us as well, especially from a more conservative evangelical world. So I can kind of relate. You know, we, we don't have quite the obstacles you guys have.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:02] Right.

Steven Pynakker [03:05:03] Because we have a lot more freedom in our, in our movement to jump around and we don't, we're not, we don't have to belong to this, just this church. So we have a lot more freedom. And. But yeah, there's, there's. When it comes to religion, like most Muslims don't know really a whole lot about the history of their religion. Most, most Christians don't. So that's one of the great faults of religion is that it's.

John Dehlin [03:05:32] Or features depending on your perspective.

Steven Pynakker [03:05:35] Yeah, See, that's. And that to me is because you

John Dehlin [03:05:38] don't, regardless of whatever religion you're in charge of, you don't want your members thinking too much about it. You don't want your members learning too much about it, regardless of the religion.

Steven Pynakker [03:05:47] Yeah, right. Well, and that's.

John Dehlin [03:05:49] Thinking and learning gets you into trouble.

Steven Pynakker [03:05:51] Yeah, yeah, that's true. Now I, that's why I'm a product of the Protestant Reformation and, and it did a lot of great for civilization. It did a lot of good things. And it also did light the spark for the Enlightenment and the Republic of the United States. And a lot of liberal ideas came out of it and a lot of it was based on some basic Christian concepts and ideas. So within the content of Christianity, there is a roadmap that gives us our birthright as human beings, as fellow image bearers, to be our own people, to learn and not allow institutions to be our mediator. But you have that direct. You engage the text on your own way and you engage Jesus on your own means, and you have total freedom in Christ and liberty to do such a thing. That's My answer to all of that, because I don't believe in organized religion. I'm not a big fan of religion in general. I think that's the weakness of it. Most religion is man made. All religion's man made. Right. All religion's man made.

John Dehlin [03:06:59] And isn't it wonderful that an evangelical has been sent to us, the Mormon people, to teach us about our own birthright? And that's you, Steven Pinecker, with Mormon book reviews.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:08] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [03:07:09] Yeah. John, I think it's important. You have a right, you have an absolute right to know these things.

John Dehlin [03:07:13] And I'll just add, and I don't mean to rub salt in the wound, but, yes, it's our birthright to know our religion. Yes. Jen, you should have been told this. I should have been told this. Herardo should have been told this. Viewers and listeners should have been told this. It. It is fundamentally immoral. Now that the church knows all about Joseph's polygamy, Now that the church knows all about the problems with the historical Book of Mormon, it's fundamentally immoral for the church to continue to withhold this important contextual information so that people can understand the problems with the Church's truth claims. And it's fundamentally immoral for the church to fund apologists that weave and spin arguments to mislead and deceive people such that they won't learn or think about the historical problems with the Church's truth claims. That's. And the Church is still in full, full deception mode today, even with the book saints, even with the Gospel topics essays. Those aren't intempts. Those aren't attempts, good faith attempts to genuinely inform members. They're attempts to mislead and deceive and to whitewash and to prevent Mormons from learning their true history and from considering the problems with the churches, the credible problems with the Church's truth claims. Is that too brutal? Did I go too far?

Steven Pynakker [03:08:43] Well, I mean, that's John de Lin being John de Lin there, right? So wait a minute.

John Dehlin [03:08:49] Isn't that just fact, Objective, what I just said? Objectively true? No, Gerardo, is that not objectively?

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:53] Well, I think it is my opinion. I mean, we were just here reviewing what Kate Holbrooke, word by word, was saying, you know, on a podcast, and the arguments she would use to take.

John Dehlin [03:09:09] To justify.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:10] Yeah, take William Clayton's document, but then say we can't rely on his story about it because it's inconvenient, you know, and saying that she's not whitewashing, but then noticing over and over Again, how every time she tells a story about a woman practicing Polygamy in Joseph Ms. Time, like she was leaving so many details out that are. Were really important to the story. So.

John Dehlin [03:09:31] So that. Details that she knows.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:33] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:09:35] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:35] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [03:09:36] Yeah. So I think that's part of the reason why we had a Protestant Reformation was that the Catholic Church wasn't telling people their birthright, wasn't telling people the whole story. And I think this is just endemic to all religions. They all end up going in that direction. So I think that it's not unique to Mormonism that there's. That this is part of the issue with religion in general. And so to me, when I, when I criticize the church, I want to also show that I criticize all churches for doing very similar things as well.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:13] Right.

Guest 3 [03:10:14] Yeah. And it's even hard to hear like the date. I didn't know the date when the essays came out, because now being

Steven Pynakker [03:10:25] out

Guest 3 [03:10:26] of the church, speaking to all of my family and friends who are still believing members, there was only one person that even knew about the essays.

John Dehlin [03:10:37] Now.

Guest 3 [03:10:37] Now, like in 2022. Yeah. That even know about them or the CES letter. So they're.

John Dehlin [03:10:45] And they've been around eight years.

Guest 3 [03:10:47] Yeah. So they, you know, the church says, yeah, you know, we, we put them out onto our website or whatever, but you have to dig to find those essays. And they're not something that are just spoken about or, or told to people. And just reading the essays when I first was questioning, I didn't know things in them. And so they weren't, they weren't just given out, you know, they were putting. But they weren't told to people. So.

John Dehlin [03:11:21] Yeah. Well, thank you, Jen. And in Gerardo and Stephen, I received revelation. You received a revelation and hear my revelation.

Steven Pynakker [03:11:33] Yes, sir.

John Dehlin [03:11:34] That Mormon. Mormon book reviews is supposed to be renamed Mormon Reformation.

Steven Pynakker [03:11:44] Well, they already had a Mormon Reformation with Brigham Young in the 1850s.

John Dehlin [03:11:47] The real, the real Mormon Reformation.

Steven Pynakker [03:11:50] I have to get re baptized like Brigham Young did. So. Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:11:55] You said Mormonism needs a reformation. Maybe you're the. Maybe you're the reformer.

Steven Pynakker [03:12:02] Maybe I nailed nine to five theses to the door today. Right.

John Dehlin [03:12:07] All right, Steven Piner, thank you so much. And for all the viewers and listeners, you can go to YouTube and check out Mormon book reviews. You can go to MormonBookReviews.com, you can go to Apple Podcast or Spotify. Wherever you consume your podcasts, Stephen does important work. And Stephen, we can't thank you enough. And we're, we're not even done. We're just like, this is fun. We're just like four or five hours into a full two day experience. I'm curious to see if we're going to do more today, if we're all just too wiped and we're going to come back and try and finish tomorrow. Sounds good.

Steven Pynakker [03:12:39] Sounds good. I'm.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:40] I'm.

Steven Pynakker [03:12:40] I'm feeling good.

John Dehlin [03:12:41] However, the spirit dictates.

Steven Pynakker [03:12:42] Yeah, I follow the spirit, man. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] All right. All right. Thanks, Stephen.

Steven Pynakker [03:12:46] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:12:47] Thanks, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:48] Thanks, Jen.

Guest 3 [03:12:49] Thanks, everyone.

John Dehlin [03:12:50] And we'll see you all. Don't go away. Come right back for part three and four and five with Steven Pineaker here on Mormon Stories. Thanks, everybody.

What an Evangelical Loves About Mormonism

Part 3 of 5 · Ep. 1572

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today I am joined by two of my favorite co hosts, Gerardo Simano.

Guest 4 [00:00:10] Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:11] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] Did you have a good night last night? Did you get some good sleep?

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:14] Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] It's good to have you back.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:17] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] And we're joined by Jen Camp.

Guest 4 [00:00:19] Hey, Jen. Hi, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Good to have you back.

Guest 4 [00:00:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] And we are here for part three of our two day epic interview with Steven Heinecker. Steven.

Steven Pynakker [00:00:29] Hey, everybody. Good to see you.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Welcome back.

Steven Pynakker [00:00:31] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] Did you get some good sleep last night?

Steven Pynakker [00:00:33] Pretty good night's sleep. I'll tell you what, I woke up this morning, I thought, oh, that's right. I'm doing Mormon stories again today.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] It's like an afterthought.

Steven Pynakker [00:00:39] It is.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] We've become. We've become an afterthought.

Steven Pynakker [00:00:41] Not an afterthought. I just. This has become so natural to me that this doesn't seem weird that this is happening. It's. It's great.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Yeah. Well, as those of you know, we did two episodes yesterday with Stephen. The first episode that we did was basically Stephen's early story, growing up as a Christian in the Chicagoland area. A conservative Christian, I would say. And what caused a conservative Christian raised in the Chicagoland area in the 70s and 80s, what caused him to become super fascinated with Mormonism. And we talked about how Stephen reached a point of depression in his life where it was basically his study of Mormonism that was the only thing that was keeping him alive. It's a wonderful part one, check it out. And we're going to finish later his story. But we then move to a part two where we talked about Stephen's outsider view, putting on his secular hat of how the Book of Mormon was put together by someone who's studied more about Mormonism than 99.9% of the world's population. I put him up there with some of the greats that we've had on Mormon Stories podcast. So he's not shaking his head. He doesn't like it. He's embarrassed, but it's false humility. He's an alpha male. He knows. He knows he's brilliant. So don't believe his humility for a second. All right, so today we're going to cover three things. But in this first episode, we thought it would be fun to have Stephen tell us what he loves about studying Mormonism today. And he put together a list. And so kind of the title of Today's episode is, you know, what a Christian loves. And I would even, I don't know if you like seeing evangelical Christian. I keep getting hung up. You're not a Protestant, you're not a Catholic, so what type of Christian are you?

Steven Pynakker [00:02:27] Well, generally speaking, I would, would be considered a Protestant and I actually would consider myself kind of a radical Protestant, you know, but evangelical is kind of a catch. All that covers a lot of the movement. So I, I, I'm comfortable calling myself an evangelical Christian.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] You are?

Steven Pynakker [00:02:43] Yeah, very much so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Well, we believe people should be able to self identify however they want. Absolutely. But if you're comfortable saying it, I'll say it, you know, because I grew up in Katy, Texas, in the Bible belt in a Baptist town and Baptists and a lot of evangelicals didn't like Mormons. And so to have people like you and Chris Thomas and others, Allison, you know, show a real interest in Mormonism and not in a way that's perceived as antagonistic. Kind of like the anti Aaron Shovel off kind of. How do you pronounce his name? Yeah, like, you know, Mormons love it. I'm intrigued by it. And so, yeah. So let's start to today's first episode by having you just share maybe, you know, 10 things you love about Mormonism, again from an evangelical perspective.

Steven Pynakker [00:03:37] Okay. So I, we kind of combine like things I like about the Book of Mormon that, that counts, and also things I like about modernism in general. And so I think we'll talk about, I just, first of all, I love the people that I've encountered. So it was like just a few months before I started my channel that actually started actually engaging LDS folk and community of Christ and other members of the Restoration. And I, I kind of take a broad view. So when I talk about the Restoration, I'm talking about every group that's a product of Joseph Smith and everything because I think, you know, we have to take into account not only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but we also need to take into account the community of Christ, which is a becoming mainline Protestant denomination. And we also take into account the Church of Jesus Christ, which I have to say is probably one of the most Christian churches I've ever attended.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] What?

Steven Pynakker [00:04:31] Yeah, absolutely. And this because I attended church service there, man, and I felt the spirit. I mean, it was awesome. My mother came and I said, mom, I gotta, you tell me, you know, and she said, I felt the anointing. I asked her the next day and then I brought two Christian brothers or neighbors of mine. I said, guys, we're going to go on to Saturday night preaching service. Let's you tell me these are Christians and these are evangelicals. No, these are believers of the Book of Mormon. They're part of the Church of Jesus Christ, founded kind of cameras from the ashes of Sidney Rigdon's failed experiment to try to do a united order or whatever in Pennsylvania. And so I've attended many services with them and have been embraced by them as a brother in Christ. And I would consider them brothers and sisters in Christ.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] So which church are you talking about?

Steven Pynakker [00:05:20] It's called the Church of Jesus Christ. It's the third largest church in the Restoration.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Okay. Mormons have, and I included, have almost no idea what you're talking about right now.

Steven Pynakker [00:05:28] You.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] So I thought you were talking about Community of Christ, but you were talking about a third Restoration Branch Church of Jesus Christ.

Steven Pynakker [00:05:36] And Joseph Smith is the founder of that church.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] And they're based where?

Steven Pynakker [00:05:39] In Monongahela, Pennsylvania is their headquarters.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Okay. And you went there to attend one of their services?

Steven Pynakker [00:05:44] I've been to many of their services and I actually met a couple of their apostles and I'm friends with the president's son. I'm very tight with that group. I could walk to any church, Jesus Christ congregation in North America, and they'll know who I am. I made quite an impact on them, and they made quite an impact on me as well.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] How many congregations do you think they have? So this guy's teaching me about Mormonism.

Steven Pynakker [00:06:11] So they have a worldwide. They have around 25,000 members and they have a few thousand members in the United States. I think they have congregations throughout the country. They actually have like in my home state now, home state of Florida, they have at least a half dozen congregations and they have a strong concentration in Michigan and Pennsylvania. They also have congregations in California, Arizona. So I couldn't give you an exact amount of congregations, but it's probably, I don't know, I don't know, around 100 or thereabouts.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:06:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Fun.

Steven Pynakker [00:06:44] Yeah. It's just great. But I, you know, and this could go back to early on when we talk about other things, but, you know, I look at the full restoration, I look at all the branches of the restoration. And so I don't just focused on the Salt Lake branch because all these groups claim Joseph as their founder. And so if I. And they tell, you know, what do they tell? What they say, you know, check. What are the fruits? You know, what fruits are they bearing? Well, when I look at the church of Jesus Christ. They are a fully, as far as I'm concerned, Christian church. And Joseph Smith fell into that church too.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Yes. Okay. Yeah. And I have to say for our show, notes like, we've had John Hamer, who's now a higher level leader in Community of Christ. We've had him on Mormon Stories many times. And even their prophet.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Stephen Veasy. Stephen Steven Veazey.

Steven Pynakker [00:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] And he is one of the most delightful humans I've literally ever met. One of the most inspiring interviews I've ever done in Mormon Stories is Stephen Veazey.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:43] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Have you met Steven?

Steven Pynakker [00:07:45] I, I, I have not personally met him, but I think there's a chance I'll have him on now. I've had John Hamer on a few times as well. And I mean, I'm plugged in with Community Christ big time. So this is another group, you know, that Joseph Smith founded. And these are lovely people and it's a great church. I mean, it really is a phenomenal church in many ways. You know, if you're more progressive, social justice type kind of person, that's a good, that might be a good landing spot for you if you're looking for something within the context of the restoration as well, you know. But even if you're a progressive Christian in general, it might be a church that would be worth checking out as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] So it sounds like one of the first things you love about Mormonism is the multiplicity of branches of the restoration.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:24] That's where all the action is, dude. The fringes is where the action is. And what do you mean by that?

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Because some people say that like Jesus is a. Jesus was sent to the margins. Does that make sense?

Steven Pynakker [00:08:36] Yeah, I think that, okay, so the church of Jesus Christ claims to be the one true church.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Okay, this third one, this number three.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Okay. The bronze Mormon Church claims to be the one true church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Ok.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:51] They all claim.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] I say that jokingly. Gold, silver, bronze.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:54] I'm just so, yes, the bronze. Yes. I like that. So I don't, of course I'm not interested in what the one true church is. We live in a postmodern world. Nobody is even interested in that question anymore. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] That's not true. A lot of Mormons care about that question.

Steven Pynakker [00:09:11] No, but I'm saying the outside world in general. Oh, okay, right. In other words, nobody's going to the Grove and asking that question anymore.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Do you mean nobody thoughtful?

Steven Pynakker [00:09:21] No, I'm saying there are very thoughtful people out there, but their relationship with religion is much more different than about what church they should belong to. It's more about, like, what. It's more relational. And so I think that's. It's just different. It's just a different world. People don't want to belong to organizations and institutions anymore. They want to just kind of do their own thing. So. But here's this church. They claim to be the true church, but the biggest difference I find with them is I know there are plenty of Baptists who believe they're the one true church. And I had family members who believed the Christian Reformed Church was the one true church. And there's Church of Christ, other restorationists who can be quite arrogant in their believing that they're the one true church as well. But this group, what makes it so unique is that they claim to be one true church, but they're humble and they don't brag about it. They're grateful. And I thought, well, if there is one true church, it's probably going to look a lot more like that, that they're grateful rather than arrogant about making the claim. And so to me, that's. That's what makes me so interested in that church.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Fun. Okay, so you had some thoughts about loving the Book of Mormon. Let's start. Should we start there? What? You know, we spent a few hours yesterday talking about your theories on how the Book of Mormon was constructed. And you also. Would it be fair to say you love the Book of Mormon?

Steven Pynakker [00:10:42] Yeah, I mean, I have to say that because I can't. I can't say. First of all, I'm not afraid. See, most Christians are afraid of the Book of Mormon. They almost think it's like the Satanic Bible. You know, they have this really odd view of it. And to me, it's like the more I've. I haven't read it cover to cover, and I haven't, you know, done the prayer. I wouldn't do something like that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:06] But why wouldn't you do the prayer? Why wouldn't you follow Moronite's promise?

Steven Pynakker [00:11:12] Because I think the setup is that I don't like the idea that it's my personal feelings that can be confirmation if something's true or not. Because we're all subjective and I don't operate that way. I like to deal with objective truths. And so if I get warm, fuzzy feelings about something, I still have to question whether it's true or not. You know, and so I don't like this idea of we'll pray. And if you had this, you know, burning in your bosom and all this kind of stuff, like I don't trust myself in my feelings. They can definitely put me in the wrong direction. So I just don't think that approach is the appropriate approach when you're seeking truth.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] So you have an epistemological problem with Moroni 10:4 basically, absolutely.

Steven Pynakker [00:11:58] I absolutely do. I don't. I just, even if I get that feeling, I wouldn't, I don't like that approach. So I just look at it as a book that I intrigued by. You know, as a young child seeing those Freiburg paintings, I was like, okay, this seems kind of cool to me. Like it just had something really that happened here. Like the Bible happened here. Like that just seems so wild to me. Right. But I was open to the idea as a young child because to me it actually makes sense that Jesus would go. And during his 40 day ministry, post resurrection, I imagined him. I can see him going around to all the world and preaching the gospel. I like that kind of concept that he gave all people the opportunity to hear his message. And that's what I kind of like about the Book of Mormon is that it says, hey, you know, Jesus loved the world so much that he did go around and give all the world the opportunity to hear his message. So I like that idea. I wish that was something that kind of did happen. Right? So there's a wishful thought like, well, maybe Jesus did go and talk to these people. Maybe he did share the gospel. And that kind of answers a lot of questions that we would have about why is it that only certain people get to hear the message and nobody ever hears his name again. Of course, growing up, if you didn't accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, you're, you're bound for hell, right? So that really bothered me that God wouldn't give people and Jesus wouldn't give people a chance to hear his message worldwide. So that's what I like the premise of that within the Book of Mormon. Right. So then just going and actually engaging the text of the Book of Mormon. I read it and say Amen. I agree with that. I was taught, you know, the Christian reform background, they believed in baby baptism or infant baptism. And we, I strongly would reject that. So I got a scripture here that

John Dehlin [00:13:53] tells you, why don't you like infant baptism?

Steven Pynakker [00:13:56] Because it's, because it will. Scripture tells us believe and be baptized. It doesn't. It's, that's the order that it comes in. So I, I firmly believe that it's a, it's meant to be. You've, you've made decision to come to Christ, and then you make a public proclamation and witnesses. So. So people can see that you're joining the Christian community. I think that's a more appropriate use of baptism. So I. I agree with the doctrine of baptism that's taught in the Book of Mormon. You know, I like that it has the gospel taught. I like that King Benjamin is giving us a sermon that's very much like a revival sermon about coming to Jesus, the idea of repentance and all this kind of stuff. So those are. That's good doctrine. So. And the reason why I like the Book of Mormon, because it's a place where Protestants, in particular evangelicals, can have the conversation with the restoration within the text of the Book of Mormon. And that can be the place where we have the conversation. So the. The thing I don't like about these apologists bashing the Book of Mormon is that they're. They're not. They're missing an opportunity rather than go on and just go after the Book of Mormon and attack it and say it's of the devil and all this kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Wait, when you say apologists, you mean Christian apologists? Christian apologists that are attacking Mormonism.

Steven Pynakker [00:15:26] Yeah. And they often. The Book of Mormon is often the entry point when they're doing the bashing. And I think that actually should be the entry point where we can actually have conversation, because there's so much in the Book of Mormon that I agree with, and there's very little in there that is actually Mormon, too. Right. Like, I spoke at the Book of Mormon rally last fall, and right before me, a professor from BYU spoke, and there was about a dozen of us that spoke at this rally. And I was the second person to come up and speak. And I listed all the things that I loved about the Book of Mormon. That God is a spirit, that Jesus and the Father are one, that it teaches baptism, that it's trinitarian. And then I looked at this professor

John Dehlin [00:16:10] in the front row. You're punking these people is what you're doing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:15] Well,

Steven Pynakker [00:16:18] finally I look at this professor from BYU and I say, and by the way, another reason I like about the Book of Mormon is there's very little Mormonism in the Book of Mormon. And the crowd laughed. They got a kick out of it. And this was a mixed audience of all representatives of all the different restoration branches put on in Independence, Missouri. That's kind of the hub. They're all there. Right. But they appreciated that. And then afterwards, I had, like, the stake president and some of the top People from LDS Church come to me and say, I just want to thank you for your testimony of the Book of Mormon. I'm like, oh, okay, I guess I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I didn't look at it that way, but that's how they saw it and perceived it.

The Book of Mormon's Theology and Christian Parallels

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:53] So if we could list the things that are Mormon that are not found in the Book of Mormon, what are some of those things that we don't find in the Book of Mormon but are currently believed by Mormons?

Steven Pynakker [00:17:07] Well, okay, so the God. The nature of God in the Book of Mormon is very orthodox. I just have one of the top Lutheran, Lutheran theologians on my program, and he even says there's the God and the Trinity. The Trinity that's described in the Book of Mormon is pretty orthodox. And there's very little that a orthodox Christian, Christian would have with the nature of God. So God is a spirit. He doesn't have a body. There is only one God, and he's eternal and unchanging. So there's a description of God that is right in line with Christian orthodoxy. And so to me, that's a good thing. And to me, the gospel and Christian orthodoxy is taught in the Book of Mormon. And so I'm like, why in the world would I be bashing on this book? This is a gift. This is a gift that can be used as a conversation between our camps. We can actually have civilized dialogue and use. You know, like I tell people the Book of Mormon does not function as scripture for me, but it doesn't bother me that it functions as scripture for you. And I think that that's the approach that we can take. So that's. I mean, there's just. I just. I just. I don't know. I enjoy. I remember when I was a young kid, I had. Down in my basement, I had this toyland that I built up. And I actually wrote a history of toyland. It's kind of weird. I don't know why I'm talking about this, but it was. The weird thing about it was, is the story of this. It was about the Exodus and I made it into a biblical story. And so that goes back to like, how yesterday's thing where. So I. In other words, I wrote a scripture about these people in my imaginary world that I created. And so I think that I can see how Joseph did the exact same thing with the Bible with his Book of Mormon was that he was kind of doing the same thing. You know, if we're just going from a naturalistic explanation. So that's why. That's another reason I like the Book of Mormon because I kind of think that Joseph was kind of thinking the same way that I would have thought as a young child. So. So I feel a resonance with the author as well of the book. And so that's another reason why I like Joseph. But I like the book. I like the content, I like the doctrine. I. I feel that I don't see any reason why Christians should even attack the Book of Mormon. I think they should just say, okay, Book of Mormon, fine.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] Yeah, what, what you're kind of talking about and around is something that Mormons like, members of my Mormon tradition, the LDS Church, they don't think a lot about. And what, what the evidence shows is that the Book of Mormon reflects Joseph Smith's Christianity in 1829 and 1830. I think that's what you were getting at, Gerardo.

Steven Pynakker [00:19:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] There's no three degrees of glory. There's no temple marriage. There's no ceilings. There's no Melchizedek priesthood.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] It's. It's, it's against polygamy instead of for

Steven Pynakker [00:20:06] it more than the Bible is what. It's against polygamy more than the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Yeah. There's no proxy work for the dead. There's no temple work at all. Like, it's a totally different. And like, yeah, there's no word of wisdom. They're drinking wine. Yeah. Right. And. And again, God and Jesus are one.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] And then also no tithing. Yeah, there's no tithing. They're speaking in tongues. They're like, they're, they're. They're having these charismatic moments. It's, it's a, it's number one, a totally different church than today. And it's a total reflection of what Joseph thought and believed at the time. And. But Mormons don't realize that. They just sort of like whenever there's an actual verse that that kind of contradicts, like, I and my father are one. Let's just say the Book of Mormon says something like that. If you've seen the father, you've seen me, or whatever, Mormons will go, well, he just means that, like, they're very similar. You know what I mean? And, and so they have no problem harmonizing the Book of Mormon with Nauvoo era Joseph Smith doctrine. But what they, what they don't realize is that if the Book of Mormon really is preserved for the last day, if it really contains the fullness of the gospel, which somehow Mormons are taught.

Steven Pynakker [00:21:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] So how Mormons are taught that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel, yet it leaves out temple, marriage, ceilings, proxy work for the dead, like, like Melchizedek priesthood, all the sort of major defining doctrines of Mormonism. Why is it coincidental, you know, Mormons wouldn't even stop to think how odd it is that the Book of Mormon is a snapshot of Joseph smith's beliefs in 1829 period. And so what you're doing is you're kind of, you're teasing us and you're teasing Latter Day Saints by saying, I love the Book of Mormon. Check it out, we have that in common. Because what you're really saying is, yeah, Mormonism, the, the LDS Church has strayed from the plain and precious simple truths of Christianity that Joseph got right at the beginning and then kind of perverted or messed up as you went along. But you're, you're, you're not saying that. You're kind of smiling and saying, let's study the Book of Mormon together. Right? It's a little bit sneaky.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:26] I mean, I, and I'm not trying to be subversive, but I'm, I'm just openly using the scriptures. They're the scriptures of the restoration, and just embracing them and saying, okay, let's, let's have these conversations. Let's talk. And because, yeah, I mean, this is a little tongue in cheek, right? They understand that too. I'm a little tongue in cheek. They all laughed when I was at the rally. They understood what I was doing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:49] Right?

Steven Pynakker [00:22:51] But it's, it's a real thing because like I said this, what we have in common, not only is we have the Bible and we have the Book of Mormon. So we have two very important scriptures that are in common with my, my, my people and in common with the Church, Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. So let's have those conversations in there. And my whole argument is, let's, like when I, when I get into arguments with Catholics, I'm like, let's put aside the stuff we don't agree on. Let's focus on the things that we would accept and those would be the Bible, scripture, and let's have our conversation in Scripture. So I do the same thing with Catholics. Let's have this conversation within the Bible because that's an area of agreement that we can work on and put aside the other doctrines of Catholicism that I disagree with and then try to say, okay, what do you, the Catholics believe? This. How does that line up with the Scripture? I do the same thing. The Book of Mormon teaches this. And the Bible teaches us, well, how does what the LDS Church line up with Scripture? And so that way we can actually have a civil conversation because we have common ground, a commonality, and then it enables us to actually then have real conversations because I want somebody from the LDS Church to defend their doctrines using the scriptures that we both agree are scripture, and then we have a real adult conversation. And. And I think that's how that works.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] But it's tricky because in some ways, if you think about the text of the Book of Mormon, like this is. Denver Snuffer's whole point is that the, the LDS Church has strayed from the teachings of the Book of Mormon, whether it's becoming too materialistic, whether it's fine apparel wealth. Like, if anything, the modern Mormon Church is wealthy and into consumer shop. I mean, not. This isn't fair to say, because Mormon people are good people. I believe that. But like investing in a $2 billion commercial shopping mall, hoarding hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth, that's almost like anti. I don't want to say antichrist in a disrespectful way, but that's almost anti

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:51] Christian because the Book of Mormon talks against that.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Yeah, exactly. And so the modern Mormon Church is, is literally like contradicting the Book of Mormon's core teachings. And that's what's giving Denver Snuffer so much fuel. And that's kind of what you're saying. And I just also want to just throw in that Chris Thomas was the first to really help me see this.

Guest 4 [00:25:15] So.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] So we'll include his interview in the show notes. But we talked about this yesterday as well. The Church of the Book of Mormon, the, The Christian church experience of the Book of Mormon is way closer to an evangelical or a, or even a charismatic or Pentecostal church experience than it is a current Latter Day Saint Ward. And that's just a fact. And if you, and if you look at the Articles of Faith, we believe in the gift of tongues. Prophecy, revelations, visions, healings, interpretations of tongues.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:46] Amen.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] That's in our Articles of Faith, and that's describing a Pentecostal or charismatic religious tradition. Mormons will now reinterpret that. Well, gift of tongues means that when you're on your mission, you learn the language faster.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:59] Right?

John Dehlin [00:25:59] That's not, that's not what they're talking about, right?

Steven Pynakker [00:26:02] No.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:02] Well, I actually just have. I have opened Alma Chapter 19 and 18, where King Lamoni is being taught, you know, and they're talking about God being the Great Spirit and You know, not saying, oh, he has a body or nothing like that. And then King Lamona and his household fall into a trance and see many angels and all this kind of conversion stories that are very, very Pentecostal.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] Sounds like your childhood basically.

Steven Pynakker [00:26:30] Oh yeah, man, I'm telling you, I've been to that service. And that's the thing. I mean, I look at the Book of Mormon tells you what the signs of a true church are. And if you were to build your church as an outsider, if a Christian group says, how are we going to construct a church? And they base it on the Book of Mormon, they're going to have a thoroughly biblical church and a church that's operational in the spirit. And so to me it's like, this is a great guide if you want to build your church. Use the Book of Mormon as a guide. You can use the Acts and use the Book of Mormon and base your church on that. And you're going to have, I think you're going to have a church that the Holy Ghost is going to show up at. And so I think because I've been to that service, I went to that April 6, 1830 church service with the Church of Jesus Christ. I'm like, I'm in a room full of fellow believers. Just like there were fellow believers born again, spirit filled Christians were in that room on April 6, 1830. These are my people. And so to me they're brothers and sisters in Christ. So I look at all. I mean, I just think that the book. Look, I think Denver Snuffer is a very interesting dude and I've been in touch with him and I kind of see what he's doing with his approach. And if Denver Snuffer is about seeking a personal relationship with Jesus Christ using restoration scriptures, then I'm very curious to have a conversation with this man because he's kind of speaking the same language that I speak, right? And so I like that approach. I like that I find him interesting. I'm still trying to figure him out, like, what's making this guy tick? Like, does he have an end game, what's his agenda? And all this kind of stuff. But I find him to be an interesting guy. But I think he's kind of keyed in on a lot of the stuff that I'm keying in on as well. So yeah, like I said, I just think that the, like I said, the Book of Mormon gives, there's very little in the Book of Mormon that I have issue with. So it's, it's. I like, I Said it's not scripture to me, but it's to me. It can be a guide. And I don't have any issue if somebody wants. If somebody grows close, closer to Christ by using the Book of Mormon. I have. No, I have. I do not want to undermine their faith in the Book of Mormon if that undermines their faith in Jesus Christ.

Guest 4 [00:28:34] And I just want to make something clear to believing or people coming out of the LDS Church. You're talking about the Book of Mormon. Just the Book of Mormon, not the Doctrine Covenants and the Pearl of Grace Price, Pearl of Great Price, and all those books that kind of came afterwards. Because sometimes as a believer, when you say Book of Mormon, it's like all of those come into one. Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:01] You got the quad, the triple combination. It's all in the same book.

Guest 4 [00:29:04] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:04] It's all.

Guest 4 [00:29:04] When you say Book of Mormon. So I just want to. Just wanted to clarify that with you, that you're not saying do what Joseph Smith said to do in the Doctrine Covenants. Like you believe all that.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:15] Right. And this is the thing too, is like, I kind of look at if the idea of the restoration was we want to get back to the Book of Acts. We want to get back to how things were at the beginning, because that's the most authentic, true church. Right. Well, I'm doing the same thing with the. With the church, Jesus Christ as well, of Latter Day Saints and Church of Christ, whatever groups, whatever names they were calling themselves back then. And I go and I look at the beginning of the church, and it parallels the same narrative of what we see within the Christian world is we have this authentic church at the beginning that was fully operational in the gifts. And then as time went on, things started getting added. Philosophies of men, doctrines of men. All these things start getting added to when a few hundred years later, like, I can read the history of Christianity and then I start getting into like 4th, 5th century, and I don't even recognize that as being a Christian church anymore. You know, it's Catholicism. Yeah. It becomes foreign and alien to me. Okay. But when I read the early days. That's okay. That, that. That's it. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, I can. All the early stuff, but as it keeps on going. So in other words, what happens is, is that man has this thing where he, God gives us the gift. Like we have the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and it's freely operating, but man needs to control it. So the first thing he does is he starts. He puts a building on it, puts a building over it. And then he starts giving rules and regulations. And then within a generation or two, even within the charismatic movement, all these great things are happening. And then a generation later, those churches are just as dead as the churches that those people left when they had to embrace the charismatic movement. I think it's a natural inclination that man feels the need to control and have bureaucracies and build things. So that's what happened with Catholicism is that they went astray in some sense. And that's why there was a need for a Protestant Reformation. And I just see the same story being told with the whole restoration narrative as well. So the church that's closest to the very beginning is the Church of Jesus Christ. And to me, that one is very close to a Book of Acts church. And it's very close to our movement as well, with within people, within Protestantism that want to go back to like a more authentic early church.

Guest 4 [00:31:35] Okay, thank you. That makes sense.

Steven Pynakker [00:31:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] And so just to kind of run out this part of the episode, we're going to talk next episode about recommendations you have for the Mormon Church, but I kind of need to mention it. You mentioned you've probably attended some Community of Christ services. They probably feel more familiar to you than an LDS church service. You mentioned Church of Jesus Christ services that you're like fully down about. Have you attended a LDS Church service? And do you share as much excitement and enthusiasm about that as you do the Church of Jesus Christ?

Steven Pynakker [00:32:15] All right, so first impression, I get in there, I look around and I'm like, these people need a cup of coffee. I was like, whoa, this is like, it just. It wasn't there. I mean, I guess I read enough about to kind of know what to expect. I have never in my life been in a church where people whispered the hymns. It was so, like, so quiet. There was, you know, I feel like Bruce Van Orman, who's wrote the W.W. phelps biography, he likes to bluster and sing his songs and people kind of look at him funny in the services. And I hope to one day be with Bruce Van Orman and have sing with him very loudly in an LDS ward one day. But, and I just spoke to see, this past Sunday, I actually spoke at a Community of Christ service. So I gave a 15 minute talk and at the Bradenton Sarasota congregation, based on where I'm at. And like I said, I'm in tight with the Community of Christ as well. And they're more like attending a mainline Protestant church service where it's an. It's an older crowd. It's subdued. I mean, I even told him, I said, you know, I don't know if I could make this my regular church because you don't raise your hands, you don't clap your hands. And they kind of, they responded. They got a kick out of that. You know, I said, I like a little bit more going on in my services, so. But they appreciated the, you know, and I also told them how much I loved their church, how many things they got right as well.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:42] Like, in many ways, they were very prophetic. Like, as 19th century churches go, they seem to get a lot of, a lot of things right, too. So that's. I like them for that, too, but they're more progressive and I'm not quite part of that wing, but I love them.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] All right, well, we'll save your suggestions for the LDS Church for next episode, but that gives us a flavor anyway. I mean, I'm going to be honest, it seems like there's a tiny bit of. I don't want to know if it's bait and switch or underhanded. I don't mean to give it a negative connotation, but it seems like what you're saying is what you love about the Book of Mormon is it kind of disproves the modern LDS Church a little bit.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:19] Well, you know, and this is the thing, you know, like most, I mean,

John Dehlin [00:34:21] you are saying it reflects your version of Christianity better, but you're also kind of saying it does not represent the modern LDS Church.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:28] It doesn't represent the, the deck. The first few decades of the church are much more closer to. I mean, we could go into the 20th century and have them given these general conferences speeches where they're talking like a revival preacher.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:48] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:49] We have Hubie Brown. Yeah. And BH Roberts and all these people. But then you have, and this is just kind of digressing a bit, but we have Brigham Young's wives speaking in tongues. Right. So we have a lot of, a lot of the things that I'm saying, it won't just happen. In the early days, this stuff was going. Tongue speech was fairly common, yet going into the early 20th century within the

John Dehlin [00:35:15] church and actually didn't realize that.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:17] Yeah. There was, there was still manifestation of tongues going on that we have records of. Mostly women. They're doing the tongue speech. So to me, it's like, we also,

John Dehlin [00:35:26] we also know that women in the LDS Church performed healings into the early 20th century.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:32] Yeah. And that's, that's right in line with the gifts of the, of the charismatic aspect, you know, so that's all there. That's all there. So it, I look at it and I, I can honestly say this is, I'm not attacking the church, but you guys have deviated away from your, the, the beginning of how the church, you're, you're deviated. It's just no doubt we can look at the historical record and the church that exists now would be unrecognizable to a 19th century LDS folk. They would not, they wouldn't recognize it. They, they, they would come and say, boy, these people could use a cup of coffee.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] They were probably drinking coffee.

Steven Pynakker [00:36:11] Exactly. They were.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:13] And I was a little bit when I mentioned Hubie Brown. That's a lot later. But even, you know, I think John or Mormon stories, you've mentioned a lot about how even during David O. McKay there's, there seemed to be. Before correlation, there seemed to be a lot more excitement in the church about talks, women writing their, their own curriculum and what they were going to teach in Relief Society. Talks at General Conference were a lot more passionate and interesting and that seems to just kind of keep dying and being more corporate.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Yeah. I mean literally the church is a corporation and it's almost like when it got rid of polygamy and needed a new identity, it kind of absorbed, kind of like IBM. This is going to be a reference that Gen Zers won't get, but it's kind of like an IBM McDonald's corporate, where we want every franchise to be identical. We want to have one experience, church experience that's global. So people in Africa are wearing white shirts and ties. You know, men in Africa are wearing white shirts and ties. Guatemalan women are, you know, it's, it's a, a standard identity that, that looks more like corporate IBM America suits and white shirts and ties, women in very formal dresses and then a similar experience everywhere which kind of takes out any variety, any local culture and makes it kind of like a McDonald's cheeseburger fry experience worldwide. And that's what corporations can, can do over time, unfortunately.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:52] Yeah, I mean I, I wish, I wish correlation never happened because I think you'd have a much more interesting church to engage and have and, and it would have been. I like the weirdness of Mormonism too. You know, I like the uniqueness of some of it too. And correlation is just kind of strangled out so much of what makes Mormonism Mormon. Right. And it, and there's obviously been a real attempt since the 1950s. David O. McKay essentially was trying to Say, okay, guys, shave the beards off. We're going to emulate 1950s American Protestantism. We want to be accepted into the mainstream. That was all about trying to be accepted into America. And they've accomplished that. You know, they are 1950s America. They have accomplished that. They have been fully integrated into 1950s America.

John Dehlin [00:38:37] And we're super wealthy and we are the wealthiest church in the United States, period. Oh, and the most powerful. Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:38:45] I mean, I would argue with maybe the exception of the Catholic Church, probably the wealthiest church in the world, it's a little different with the Catholics because things are divvied up. But if you took all the orders and if you took the German church, but the Vatican doesn't have access to the German church's funds because it's stay in the house overall, like with the Jesuits and all that, they probably are. Have more wealth than the LDS Church does. But I can't think of another church that's even comes close.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] So, yeah, that's saying something. I mean, they were. The. The LDS Church has been incredibly successful at a few things. Right?

Steven Pynakker [00:39:19] Yes. Well, and I think that, I mean, they, they embraced the Protestant work ethic. You know, props to them for that. It does work.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Yeah. Love it. Okay, so what else do you love about Mormonism? I guess you have kindness as one.

Steven Pynakker [00:39:37] Yeah, yeah. The people are generally kind. Now, sometimes there is a fake kindness that you comes across. So come back sometimes a little over saccharine, you know, ask, you know, but, but generally speaking, the people are very nice to me. They bless me. I mean, like I told Christopher, I mean, I had a gentleman send me a Book of Mormon worth around $5,000. Just says, I want to send something to add to your collection. And I'm like, wow, thank you. And so what are you. What do I do when I have Mormons? Keep on blessing me. And I'm going to accept, as a Christian, I'm going to accept those blessings. And so they want to bless me, I'll accept them. That to me is. Is a sign of people that are good folk. Let's see, let me think here. Yeah, they're not good people. Work ethic. One of the most admirable things, of course, is they made the desert bloom. And that to me is a sign of something because Israel made this, the desert bloom as well. And the story of Mormonism is the story of America. The pioneers, they were, they were brave. These were brave people. Brigham Young, you can criticize them, and I certainly would. There's a lot of things about Brigham Young, I don't care for, but, but he was an American Moses. So we almost get to see like the Old Testament replay on the American continent through the founding of the church here in Utah. So it's one of the most remarkable, amazing stories in the history of humankind. It's amazing. So I always tell people, like, why are you so interested in Mormonism? People, they'll ask me, like, that's so weird. Have you read the story of these people? It's an amazing thing. I mean, I, I, I have nothing but admiration for making the desert bloom, building this city, building this community with all its faults and everything like that. There's something very admirable about being able to do something like this to keep your community together, to build a society, to be aspirational, like, hey, we're going to build Zion, you know, we're going to help build the kingdom of God, you know, like, yeah, you know, I'm going to give you props for that, man. You know, because I feel like there's a lot that a lot of Christians can learn from that. You know, having Christian communities and having these ideas of thinking of building something great and to been able to do it and pull it off is just one of the most, I mean, amazing things to me. I just, so I can't. So that's where I admire, I find much of the, just the whole thing very admirable, you know, and so that's, that's another thing that I just really, really enjoy and respect.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] I mean, Christ said, by your fruits you shall know them.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:29] Yeah, I see. That's why I think that, you know, I mean, I was driving around with Christopher Thomas, and we're driving through town. I said, you know, it is a remarkable story. And I told him at that point, they made the desert bloom and there are some fruits that the church has produced that Christians need to take into account. They can't just dismiss them. Just, they can't say, well, they're of the devil, or they teach another gospel, they believe in another Jesus, and you know, they're called and they're of the devil and all these. Let's actually look at what fruits have been born. Let's look at what kind of people have come out of this and let's, you know, we have to account for that. We have to account for this church. We also have to account for that, that little church based in Pennsylvania that Joseph Smith also founded. We have to take those people into account as well. They should not exist, and they somehow exist. That's to me that's almost like that little church that call them Pentecostal. Mormons should not exist. That's always, I tell people, that's always a sign that God's hand is in, is in an enterprise. If something that shouldn't exist exists, that if man couldn't plan it, God probably did. So, yeah, there's, that's, there's. And then look at the community of Christ. Look at all the good work they do too, you know, and look at the beautiful church that they founded. And they've been very, they've got a lot of things right. They got the race stuff right. There was some, there were some racial women. Eventually they get to the women in the priesthood, lgbt, and they've embraced, you know, they have a, in other words, they're embracing everybody. Right. They're not exclusionary. And this is another church, this is another fruit of a church that we have to take into account as well. So it's not just, that's why I always tell Christians, just don't focus on Joseph Smith. Don't just focus on the church, Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. Look at the full spectrum. Look at all the other fruits that have been born as well. And that should give Christians pause. And maybe they should be a little humble and less arrogant in their critiques.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] Love it. Okay, on your outline, you mentioned a bunch of doctrines, theological tenets of the Book of Mormon that I think you've already kind of mentioned. But I do want to just summarize them because if there, there are any orthodox active Mormons watching Mormon stories, and I know we have them, you're basically, if you just want to list them all one last time, I think it's worth, you know, if you're going to read the Book of Mormon, I think it's worth accepting Stephen's challenge to realize that, that the Book of Mormon very much stands apart from modern LDS Church doctrine in several key points. It's far more evangelical Christian than it is modern day Latter Day Saint. So would you want to list off the tenets that you have one last time?

Steven Pynakker [00:45:14] Well, I think that Jesus Christ is at the center of the Book of Mormon. And that's what I think is the most important message of the Book of Mormon is Jesus is at the center. And so anything that Jesus is at the center of, I'm going to say, okay, Jesus is at the center. This is not of the devil. I don't believe the devil had anything to do with the production of the Book of Mormon. Okay. I think that they, the teachings of God, of How the nature of God. It gets it. Right. It basically gets the Trinity. Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] How so?

Steven Pynakker [00:45:46] Because God is portrayed in a very orthodox. In a very orthodox way. The God of the Book of Mormon is the God of Nicene Christianity.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Meaning?

Steven Pynakker [00:45:59] Meaning that it's. It's the God that would be very much described in the creeds of Christianity that would be universally acknowledged as the nature of God without. Within all. Within the greater Christian world.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] You keep saying that, but Mormons don't know what that is.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:14] What's that?

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Many Mormons don't know what that is.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:16] So what's orthodox? Oh, okay. I mean, so basically the God is eternal, God is one, God is a spirit, God is unchanging. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:26] No body.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:28] No body, Right, Yeah. So this. In other words, the Book of Mormon teaches a biblical, orthodox God. It's the same God. Right. So if it's teaching the same God, no problem with the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:41] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:44] And then especially in the 1830 edition, it's. They actually, unfortunately, the nature of the Trinity gets adjusted a little bit and becomes. They deemphasizes the trinitarian aspects in later editions of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] So they changed the Book of Mormon to reflect Joseph's evolving view of the Godhead.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:03] One of the most trinitarian verses in the Book of Mormon, and it's actually a very Catholic verse in the Book of Mormon, is that it says, Mary is the mother of God. And Catholics will tell you that that's

John Dehlin [00:47:15] in the original Joseph's 1830 version.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:18] Yes, Mary is the mother of God. It's later changed to Mary is the mother of the Son of God. Which, as a Protestant, I'm more comfortable with that term as well. But if we want something that's very trinitarian, Catholics will tell you Mary is the mother of God is explicitly trinitarian in its formulation there. So that actually is a very strong trinitarian verse that was in the original Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] So. But wouldn't the Mormon Church. Wouldn't the LDS Church changes the Book of Mormon later and inserts Son of. Or right Son of.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:52] Yeah, the mother of the Son of God.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] Are they staying true to what Joseph Smith believed at the time, or did Joseph Smith get it right in the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon based on what he believed about Mary and Jesus and God at the time? In other words, did they just correct an error that kind of got through the editing process, or were they actually changing it to reflect the evolution of Joseph's belief?

Steven Pynakker [00:48:17] I mean, that would be the argument that that's what happens that in the later editions he's moving away from that formula and so makes those adjustments in later editions. I think that's the most like, rational explanation is what's going on there.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] He develops this new theory that. That God and Jesus are separate, that we all can become God someday and so we can't have Mary being the mother of God.

Steven Pynakker [00:48:38] If you have. That's a very strong theological position that you're taking. Mary is the mother of God. That is not something that you misquote or flub.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] Yeah, that's.

Steven Pynakker [00:48:52] You're making a very, very strong statement. I mean, a Protestant person isn't going to say that, but he's making. He's actually. That verse is very radical because it actually kind of almost goes against the Protestant narrative, but it's making a very strong statement and actually makes it even the book, even more trinitarian. The Bible. In some ways, I, I think it

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:14] was Joseph who made the change in 1837 is when it first appeared. Fair latter day saint says, which is fair Mormon, that the earliest edition of the Book of Mormon referred to Jesus as God. And Joseph Smith later changed some, but not all of these to the Son of God. So I remember being on my mission and, and trying to wrestle with why were there so many verses that referred to Jesus as God.

Steven Pynakker [00:49:45] Yeah, that's another great thing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:47] And it was really confusing because then there would be some that kind of clarified. It was this Jesus was the Son of God. Turns out Joseph changed some, but not all. And I mean, they tried to speculate as to why. To me, I mean, if you look at the whole context on when he was making the changes, it seems like he was changing his view on the, on the, on the Trinity.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] And people would be like, wait a minute, you're teaching this? But the Book of Mormon says that. Right. Gotta fit. You know, he's like, oh, better fix the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:18] Kind of. Yeah, yeah, could be.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah, yeah, okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:22] Yeah. So I also like that it is a thoroughly Protestant book as well. Right. So it teaches all the doctrines that I would recognize as being Protestant in one sense. Correct. Although I'm not like, you know, like one of those people is, you know, my way or the highway type kind of Christian. But generally speaking, the, the doctrines in there are very solid. I'm very comfortable within the text of the Book of Mormon. I'm very comfortable with the doctrines that are taught in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Such as Protestant.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:51] Well, like believers. Baptism is a perfect example. That's like a Protestant in a Particular infant. Infant baptism, which would have been practiced, is practiced by other Protestants, but Evangelical Protestantism is adult baptism. So to me, that's like, really important. But I also like that as a charismatic, it's also thoroughly Pentecostal. I like that it has tons of speech, it has healings, it has all these things that are going on. And just to reference Chris Thomas's book, a Pentecostal reads the Book of Mormon. One of the most remarkable things about the Book of Mormon is that just to get a little history Lesson here, in 1906, we had the Azusa street revivals, which was the beginning of modern Pentecostalism in America, which would then become part of the Charismatic movement, would become out of that when it would also get into mainstream Protestantism and Catholicism in the 1960s. So you have two moves of God. You have the Zuza street and then you have the Charismatic Renewal movement in the 1960s. The book of Mormon has Pentecostal doctrines. So you have to understand, a lot of people don't really if you don't, if you're not a Pentecostal. And you can kind of just say, well, they were just emulating the Methodists revival services of the 1820s, and that made its way into the Book of Mormon core Pentecostal doctrine that is unique to 1906 Azusa Street Revival. Language that would be adopted by the Assemblies of God, Christopher's Church of God Foursquare, all these Pentecostal groups that come out of there. Those doctrines are articulated and fully developed in the Book of Mormon almost 100 years before, 80 years before the Azusa street revival. So that is just a fascinating thing that he identified that this thing is so thoroughly Pentecostal. And it's actually like, it anticipates Azusa street and it anticipates the doctrines that would come forth. So that's just like a. I mean, we don't. Christopher and I don't really know what to do with that because how is. How did the Book of Mormon gets so much right about doctrines that hadn't even been articulated until decades later? So it's just a very intriguing thing that I find.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:55] Like, do you have some examples of those doctrines?

Steven Pynakker [00:52:58] Well, like, one of the biggest ones is the baptism of the Holy Spirit should be with evidence of tongues. So in other words, if you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you would speak in tongues. That would be like a visible confirmation of receiving the Baptist. That's like a biggie. And that was a big doctrine that was developed by. By Azusa Street. It was. It was something that. That, that doctrine wasn't being taught back then by any of the other churches. There's a lot of other doctrines that are. That were in there that somehow made it into the Book of Mormon. So it. That's what makes that so fascinating, is that it almost does anticipate the modern Pentecostal movement.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Why are you smiling, Jen?

Guest 4 [00:53:38] Because as you're talking, I don't even recognize the Book of Mormon that you're talking about.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:46] What do you mean?

Guest 4 [00:53:46] Is that, like, I don't. Like, this wasn't taught to me like, this Book of Mormon that you're describing and the way you're describing it is. Is not how it's taught right in the church.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] What do you make of that, Jen? Because the text is. The text is there, but we, We've. The. The church helped us ignore what the text actually says in very meaningful, significant, comprehensive ways.

Guest 4 [00:54:16] I think what I, what I see happening is in these new, you know, study manuals or, you know, lesson manuals and things like that, that they're taking what, what was written after the Book of Mormon and using that to explain and teach us the Book of Mormon instead of using the Book of Mormon to teach us. And it's just kind of like, I'm just kind of recognizing that as you're, as you're talking about. But then when you talk about the Book of Mormon, like, I recognize those things that I've read, but the way that they teach is backwards. And so I'm just. I'm just trying to, like, redirect my brain in a different. To thinking it backwards from what I was taught. So it's just when you're talking, that's why I keep smiling, because I'm like, oh, oh. If you go back that that is what is in there. And then I'm like, where did I get this? Oh, I got that from what was taught in this, you know, conference talk. And it's. It's kind of. My mind is going a little. It's just recognizing things. So it's interesting. It's. It's interesting to me that I'm learning about my Book of Mormon that I loved and like, you know, read every day and taught my kids and everything. It's different, like, hearing you speak about it. But I love what you're saying. I love what you're saying about it, too. So it's just this weird thing that's happening to me right now, like, in the now. It's just. So that's why I keep Smiling and.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:56:20] Like, trying to figure it out.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:56:24] Backwards.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:24] Yeah. It's kind of like Harry Mealstein's idea of, like, you. You have this narrative that you're taught and that you want to believe in, and then every. Every evidence that you look, you try to fit into that narrative. So if you were taught that God and Jesus are two separate beings with flesh and bones, and then you're going to read the Book of Mormon, you're going to try to find how to fit the Book of Mormon into the idea of.

Guest 4 [00:56:52] Yeah. And then I'm also realizing these things that have always felt wrong inside me now explained differently, make sense to what was inside me, if that makes sense.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:07] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:57:08] I love you, everyone. I hope that I'm making sense to you, but this is, like, happening to me in real time. So I'm trying to, like, grasp all of this coming.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:17] So I have to say, she's been a revelation to this. I'm so glad that you're participating in this because it's really. It's. It's giving me real time feedback, you know, and we're having conversations off camera, and you've been a real blessing to me. I just want. I love you so much.

Guest 4 [00:57:35] Thank you.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:35] I really appreciate you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:39] I once heard or read about this idea that Joseph's. Even Joseph's concept of the Trinity. Even later, like, even during Brigham Young, they wouldn't. So you know how today the church teaches Jehovah is Jesus. Heavenly Father is not Jehovah.

Guest 4 [00:58:02] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:58:02] Is Elohim.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:03] Elohim. Michael is Adam. And like, it's just very structured. But even Brigham Young or Joseph Smith wouldn't see it that way. Joseph would use the term Jehovah interchangeably for Heavenly Father and Jesus, even to the point where we have the prayer of. I think it's the Kirkland Temple dedication. Dedication where Joseph is praying to Jehovah and is calling him the Eternal Father. Have you heard about.

Steven Pynakker [00:58:38] Yeah. That kind of stuff. Some of those evolutions. Yeah. And. And see, I kind of look at it this way, is that, you know, when I, as a Protestant, you know, we look at the Catholic Church and say they. They added all this stuff. And Martin Luther's looking at his Scripture and he's going back to the original source material. He's like, I don't see this in the Bible. Right. And so I.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Infant baptism is an example. Or popes or.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:04] Well, infant baptism. Luther believed in it. But there's a lot of things. Or like the priesthood of all believers, and it's about grace as opposed to works that the narrative that the Catholic Church was not the narrative that was in the Scriptures. Right. So that was felt a need for the Reformation because we got to go back to the original source material and make sure that what is being taught lines up with that. Right. Well, I think we have a. You could argue the summary of illusion has happened within the LDS Church is that we have original source materials, we have the Bible, we have the Book of Mormon. Those are the two standard works from the very beginning. Right. Okay. And then we see in scripture, if we're going to believe in scripture and it's. It's revealed by God, then anything that comes forth afterwards has to line up with Scripture. If it doesn't line up with Scripture, then I would say it's doctrines of man commingled, if you will, in a way that what happened with Catholicism. So there was a need to go back to the original thing. And I think that within the restoration there's a parallel, exact parallel of, of what's happened with the Christian Church in general. You can almost see the same exact same thing happen. And it just seems to be a natural evolution with that happens within religions.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] Yeah. And piggybacking on Jen, what you shared in Herodo, what you just shared. This is very personal for me too, what you're telling us now, Stephen, and this is why, because I'm growing up in Baptist, you know, Katy, Texas, going to seminary. Seminary president. And all my Baptist friends are watching the God Makers.

Steven Pynakker [01:00:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:40] And telling me how Mormonism has corrupted Christianity. And so I'm. But then I'm going to seminary and Lawrence Layton, you know, my seminary teacher is this, you know, Bruce Armor Conkey, like seminary teacher. But I'm reading the Book of Mormon and I'm saying, wait a minute, like, how is it that. Where's the Melchizedek priesthood? How is it that whoever. Where did whoever starts baptizing in the Book of Mormon? Who is it that's baptizing at the waters of Alma.

Steven Pynakker [01:01:07] Alma. Where did he.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] Where did Alma get his priesthood?

Steven Pynakker [01:01:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] It doesn't mention that.

Guest 4 [01:01:12] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] There's no Melchizedek priesthood here. Or, or I, my father are one or you know, the trinitarian views. And I'm asking my, my seminary teacher these questions. I'm asking my priest, quorum advisor, the bishop. I'm having these, I'm noticing these problems discrepancies between the Book of Mormon and what I'm learning in 1980s seminary.

Steven Pynakker [01:01:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] And they're all like, oh, well, when they say this or that what they really mean is this. And then I, and then I, Izhab Benson, who's my cousin, does you know the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet? Have you heard about that talk? And it's like, well, forget the old stuff. It's like whatever the modern prophet says is all that really matters. And the church literally, I mean that might be maybe the most offensive thing to an evangelical Christian. The fact that the modern Mormon Church says if there's ever a discrepancy between the Bible and of course in Mormonism, the Bible is flawed and was mistranslated. So the Bible is not super reliable. The Bible is not primary to Mormons, it's secondary.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:19] It was to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and back in the day.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] But, but to modern Mormons the Bible has that asterisk of not translated correctly. But then the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:30] Correct book.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] It's the most correct book. And yet we're told to ignore the brand of Christ. We're kind of non. Explicitly told to ignore the, the, the flavor of Christian or the approach to Christianity in the Book of Mormon. And then there's this like this sleight of hand, bait and switch where we're told the Book of Mormon is a keystone but ignore the fact that it misses all the main tenets of Nauvoo, Joseph Smith, Mormonism, forget that. But then also in all the ways that it mains maintains fidelity to classic Protestant or evangelical Christianity. We're systematically taught to ignore that. And when push comes to shove, go with the modern prophet. Every time.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] And that is the, and ironically, in the Mormon temple ceremony, there's this phrase that was the teachings of men mingled with scripture. The philosophies of men.

Guest 4 [01:03:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Mingled with scripture. You could argue that's literally what prophet, what LDS Church members believe today is the philosophies of men meeting modern Mormon general authorities. The philosophies of modern general authorities mingled with the Book of Mormon and Bible, but only if it reflects what the modern Mormon Church leaders teach.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:44] So there's a lot of different sects like this Denver snuffers, folk. And everything will tell you that the Book of Mormon condemns the modern Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:53] That its own scripture condemns it. That the verses that were thought to be talked about, understood at the time to describe the Catholic Church are actually describing the modern LDS Church. That's the argument they make. I think that one, as an outsider,

John Dehlin [01:04:05] wealth and the power and the Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:07] You know, and as an outsider, I can step back and think that is a narrative to me that I could say makes a bit of sense.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:16] What's the name of the guy from TikTok that works for church headquarters on translation?

John Dehlin [01:04:22] Dan McKel? McClellan.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:24] Yeah. Well, he has a.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:28] He, he, he.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:29] He does a lot of tiktoks, but

John Dehlin [01:04:30] we'll add that in the show notes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:31] I think the one that surprised me the most is the one where he talks about the verse in the Book of Mormon where Lehi is teaching that we're saved by grace after all we can do. And the church has taken that verse and it's probably one of the most important verses for the modern church because that verse means that we're supposed to follow all the commandments, do all the ordinances of the covenant path, and then after all we can do, Jesus is going to save us. What Dan teaches us on his TikTok, is that actually what that meant in the time of Joseph is that we're saved despite all we can do. And that the word and that the phrase after all we can do was being used by. By preachers at the time, meaning. And it would mean to people, despite all we can do. And I, I was super surprised that even that. Which is one of the verses that is most criticized by. By evangelical Christians that even kind of like supports evangelical Christianity.

Steven Pynakker [01:05:48] Yeah, it's interesting because on one hand, I'm like rooting for grace within the Mormon Church, right? I'm like, embrace grace, embrace what Jesus did at the cross. It's not by anything that you do. It's what he does. It's not the work that I do, it's the work that he does in me. Right? That's what the work is. Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] That's the work that's powerful.

Steven Pynakker [01:06:06] And so when I want to see them reinterpret that verse, I'm like, I don't mind that. But yeah, if you look at the original, like, originally it was like taken the other way all throughout most of the history of the church. But, you know, I do kind of like them going in the grace direction because in that sense I look at it and say they're heading in the right direction. So if you want to reinterpret that verse that way, I'm cool with that one.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] Modern phenomena just of the past month or so, and I don't know if you're aware of this, there's sort of a few things that the general authorities, the apostles, are really starting to communicate. You know, one is like, no more talk of heavenly mother. That's really being slammed, but one that's really being emphasized, which is sort of a Russell M. Nelson pet, pet rock or whatever, is that God's love is not unconditional and that it's dangerous. And this is something that literally, like Christopherson in Holland, they're going out to stake, you know, area and stake training meetings saying, you all are getting something really wrong. God's love is not unconditional. God's love. If you teach that God's love is unconditional, then people are going to feel like they can sin. And so you. You need to stop teaching that God's love is unconditional.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] What do you think about that in terms of your sense of Christian sensibilities?

Steven Pynakker [01:07:33] So one step forward, two steps back. Right. Because in some ways I see, I see, like Jackson Washburn, he's trying to integrate a Protestant understanding of grace into Mormon doctrine. He'll be just gonna be writing Mormon doctrine, you know, 20, 30 years from now. So I'm rooting for Jackson. You go. But that the idea that God's love is not unconditional is a.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] And that's a double negative. That God's love is conditional.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:59] Right. It's conditional. Right. I mean, that just defeats the entire enterprise of what Jesus did at the cross. That defeats the entire enterprise about our relationship with our Creator as being fellow image bearers and his children. That when you make God into that character, you're going against everything that Christianity is all about. And so I really feel like when you make a statement like that, I'm talking as an outsider, but as an evangelical, I outright reject that. That is not Christianity. That is. That is not a doctrine that Jesus would recognize as being one of his own.

Guest 4 [01:08:37] Well, that would be them. That would be humans limiting God. If they're saying God's love is conditional, like God is supposed to be everything. Right. Be able to. Yeah, he. That's putting a condition on God or a limit on God, which I don't think many would say is correct.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:02] Something that Dan Vogel says that I really like is that Joseph was very universalist on his views about grace and about salvation. But sometimes he didn't like people knowing how universalist he was. So he wanted to be universalist, but he didn't want other people to be universalist. So. But, yeah, just. But he includes all those ideas in the Book of Mormon, and I just want to correct that. I said Lehi teaches that on the Book of Mormon. He was Nephi, but.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] Okay, all right, this is fun. So what else do you love? What else do you love about Mormonism? So we talked, oh, what do you mean by we need to be born again? What does the Book of Mormon teach about being born again? And what do you like about that?

Steven Pynakker [01:09:50] And I mean it's, it's, it's, I mean being born again is what is having a born again experience. In other words, the idea of, okay, so for instance, within Christianity, the born again movement, if you will, is kind of something that was also parallels the charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movements, and as a matter of fact, in most Americans didn't even know what a born again America, born again Christian was until Jimmy Carter became president. So it's a relatively new phraseology within Christianity, but it's the idea. So when you look at the Book of Mormon, you look at people's lives being radically changed when they're saved. You were this way one day you have an encounter and you're radically transformed. That's a born again experience. Okay, that you, the old man dies, you become a new creature and you are, you're just completely radically changed and transformed. And so that is what's described in the Book of Mormon. That's also what I believe in. You know, it's what's happened to Paul, you know, that radical like you were one, one way you were going after Christians, you were, you know, trying to kill them, you were persecuting them. And then you had this radical encounter with the Savior, a life changing moment and it fundamentally changes everything in your life and you're no longer the person you, the person you were, you're is unrecognizable to you now. And so to me, that's what being born again is all about. And that's a story that's very common within the Book of Mormon as well, those life altering experiences. So to me, I mean, I know people that were one way and they're a completely different person as a result of becoming, getting saved, getting born again.

John Dehlin [01:11:34] This is something I, to be honest, growing up, I never understood about my Baptist friends because they put so much stock on having this one experience and then they may just sin again and, and then they would use that to say, well, Mormons aren't legitimate Christians because they don't. You haven't been born again, John. And I didn't like it. Like, it just seems so squishy and like, who's to say who really is born again and who's to say that really changes you?

Steven Pynakker [01:12:06] Right?

John Dehlin [01:12:06] And, and then just this whole like, I'm in, but you're not. Yeah, those Were all the things that just the born again idea never resonated with me, didn't make sense.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:15] I get it. Because this is the thing you're dealing with men, the doctrine. The second man starts trying to describe or explain things from a divine part, they're going to always go towards legalism or exclusionary. There it's going to. This man does that. You know, we, we just have this natural affinity to divide into camps. And if you didn't have the exact same experience that I had, that makes you not part of the camp. And so this is where I would be critical of the born again thing. So if I were to go to a Christian and say, what would be your definition of somebody being born again or becoming a Christian, if you will. Like would it be you're in church and you hear an altar call and you go forward and you give your heart to Jesus Christ and they'll go to you and say, well yes, that's an authentic born again Christian. They're Christians. The only problem I have with that is that none of that's in the bible. That's all 19th century Christianity. So that's why I say, don't think for a second that if somebody didn't have the exact same experience that you had that you would say was your born again experience, but they didn't have the exact same experience that they're not born again. That's when, See that's, that's that, that, that's where the legal, that's legalistic. That's the, you know, to me, that's because you're using a standard of judging somebody. That's not even in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to ask Jesus into your heart. But most born again Christians will say ask Jesus into your heart. There's no altar calls.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:54] But the Book of Mormon says talks about having the image of Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:00] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:00] And being begotten of Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:02] Yeah. And those like, those are that. But that's that it's asking Jesus Christ into your heart is like one of the most important things there is. And it's not in the Bible. Having the countenance of Christ. Right. Would be one of them. Like that. Yeah. And, but those, those are more in line, I think with, I mean that does have a little bit of a revivalist language as well. But also see a lot of modern evangelical Christianity is also 19th century Christianity. It shares actually a lot of the same parallels with Mormonism as well. So when they think they're doing first century Christianity, a lot of Christians in the Evangelical movement are actually practicing 19th century Christianity. So we're coming from the same source, if you will. Same stream.

John Dehlin [01:14:44] Yeah, totally. Okay. Yeah, it's true. The Book of Mormon doesn't have Melchizedek priesthood. So the priesthood's different in the Book of Mormon than you. You're, you're, you wrote a non hierarchical priesthood as something you like in the Book of Mormon. Do you want to talk about that or did you already talk about.

Steven Pynakker [01:15:06] Well, I think, I think this kind of relates to the, the born again experience. So, and I relate to this. So where did the priesthood come right, like within the context of the Book of Mormon? Well, one of the issues that I think kind of is a issue with Mormonism is that they kind of follow the Catholic idea of the priesthood, which is it has to be this unbroken line that starts from Peter and then makes its way all the way to the modern church. Now within the restoration they'd say that that line was broken and so it had to be reestablished, you know, with, with, with, with the, in the 1829 or whenever they re reestablished it or whatever the dates are. It's in dispute of course, and that, that that was the reestablishment of the priesthood. But within the context of what we find in the Book of Mormon and also what we find in the Bible as well is we also have another lineage of the priesthood which is via the Apostle Paul, who has this radical encounter, life changing and he has also the priesthood conferred upon him without another apostle conferring it onto him, which is actually more in line what you see in the Book of Mormon. And I also, that's why I would argue that the born again movement within Christianity is also a restorationist movement. Well, it is a restorationist movement, but within the restoration definition of the priesthood, you could argue that born again Christians also have the priesthood within the context of the restoration. That's just the thought I want to give you because I'm trying to talk in restoration language as well, arguing that when you go and say that us born again Christians don't have the priesthood, actually I think your scriptures, the original source documents actually show that we also have the priesthood conferred upon us as well. So something to think about.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:53] That idea is interesting and I hadn't thought about it when that Paul receives the priesthood not from Peter, Jesus, James and John. So we had the apostles, right. Like how Mormonism would teach it. Like if there's someone, because there's a scripture in doctrine competence that says that only one person holds the priesthood in, in the world at a time and no one else can, can hold it like the power, you know, and, but, but we have precedent in the Bible of Paul receiving the authority even though there was the apostles were right. Close by or whatever.

Steven Pynakker [01:17:29] Yeah. And they acknowledge his credentials.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:33] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:17:33] Even though it came down. So I call it. You have the Petrine option, you know, and you have the Pauline option when it comes to priesthood conference. So. And that's using restoration language, that's using scriptures that I could make the argument using your own source materials, that I have the priesthood conferred upon me in the same way that a person of the church and if any of the churches in the restoration would have.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] And that's, I think for me, if there's two things I've observed about the modern LDS Church, it's that they care about unfavorable media or PR exposure and they care about their authority. And if you talk about Jesus being at the center of the church, I do think Russell M. Nelson has tried to shift the church with its logo and with its renaming of the church. It's trying to get back to be more Jesus centered. But if you had to really peel everything away of the modern Mormon Church to what is most important, I think you could make a very good case that it's about authority, exclusive authority. Like, like our ordinances count and that's our contribution to the world these days because the church isn't growing, it's flatlining and it's starting to shrink. And so, so it's a very common question to ask if we're just this teeny church that's going to shrink in relative size to the growing population, what's our value add? And I think the only thing the church really has left because it's distinctive doctrines are being slowly dismissed and marginalized. Right. Like Mother, mother in heaven. Got to get rid of that. You know, God is, you know, we become God someday. Oh, I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it right now. We drink Coke and that's okay. Like what do we have? Well, we have our, our baptisms count, yours don't. Our marriages count, yours don't. Our families are together in heaven, yours aren't. We're the one true church, you're not. And most importantly, follow the brethren. And if there's any difference between what you think you should do or what the world says you should do, LGBT rights, same sex marriage, civil rights in the 1960s, you go with the brethren every time. That to me that's, that is the defining value proposition of the modern Mormon Church. Is that too strong?

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:54] I don't think so. I think, I think, I think that's true.

Steven Pynakker [01:19:58] You know, just look, I'm an outsider and I'm a Christian and all those things that you just listed would be very hurtful to other Christians because you're, you're, you're basically excluding us and you're telling us that we're not legit.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:12] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:13] And I don't like language like that. I, I want to have language that we're all, you know, that we can embrace the commonalities and not the things that separate us. I like some, the areas that they're going, which is great, but those statements that you gave, I mean, those are all pretty succinct things that are. Yeah, I mean, so those are things that as a Christian, I, I take issue with. Right. I take issues with those, all those beliefs because it all, it's, it's forming a wedge. And wherever there's, you're forming wedges that you're, you're, you're causing division within humanity and within, with, with the children of God. And I don't like using wedges. I want us to build bridges and talk to each other and have these conversations and, and then. But when I criticize, I do it in love because I love the church. I love the people of the church. I really want to have a dialogue and conversation with you. But when we want to have adult dial dialogue and we want to have adult conversations, we have to acknowledge as our differences. We have to acknowledge that this is where we don't agree rather than paper over it and so cosmetic stuff where we just kind of, well, paper over this and we'll just ignore this. That's not real adult conversations. And this is what, what I'm trying to do with my channel is actual conversations where we do this kind of thing. But I'll call you out if you're wrong. I'm going to say here, I disagree with that.

John Dehlin [01:21:33] So this is a. Maybe this is an important point for me to talk about what I've observed with people like you, with people like Chris Thomas, who is the guy that led the BYU religion department for all those years that did the outreach to evangelicals. Remember? I'm forgetting his name. I'm wrestling Robert Millet. Robert Miller.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] When like it seems like Maxwell Institute, intellectual Mormonism, if that even exists, over the past five to 10 years has been trying to reach out to evangelicals. And for me that's such, that's like bizarro world. Because when I was growing up, you know, two people, you know, we hated Catholics and evangelicals hated us. Those were two very clear things in the world. And so the idea of us and the God makers was like the greatest example of that. They didn't even think we're Christian. Right. And if you fast forward, it seems like politically at some point the Mormon Church realized, you know, if it cares about anything, if the modern LDS Church cares about anything, in addition to authority and media exposure, it's, it's traditional families and fighting same sex marriage and fighting now gender, gender diversity. Right. And so what, what the church started realizing prior to Prop 8 in 2008 and then definitely with Prop 8 is we need evangelicals if we want to defeat same sex marriage, if we want to protect the family. And I'm saying that in air quotes to the people listening, we're going to need Catholics and evangelicals. We need to form a coalition. And so when I see the Mormon Church bringing Chris Thomas to the Maxwell Institute or like letting you be a part of the Mormon History association or like, or sending Richard Bushman to talk on your program, in my mind it's the church trying to kind of do something that's duplicitous. They're trying to say, evangelicals, we need you. We want you to stop, stop hating on us, we want you to stop calling us non Christian. And we need you to form coalitions for money and power to influence the, the political process. So let's do photo ops and little fake public conversations where it sounds like we're having dialogue. And I don't mean to sound so callous, but then you hear like a Brad Wilcox talk like he gave a few weeks ago. Did you hear that?

Steven Pynakker [01:23:55] I, I, I, I started it. I, I grew up with listening to people like that and it kind of drives me crazy. So I know the general theme. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] The general idea that Brad literally says, and this is like inside, inside speak versus outside speak to you. They're like, oh, Chris Thomas, oh, you know, Steven Pinecker. We love evangelicals. Let's have dialogue. Let's, let's have meetings together with photo ops and let's bring the ncaa, NAACP in and photo ops for people of color. Let's do lots of PR events that make it sound like we all love each other. But the inside speak is what Brad Wilcox said. And he's like one of the top instructors, educators in Mormonism. And he's like, you guys play with half a piano.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] You don't even have an orchestra. You have half a piano. You're playing Chopsticks.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] And that's what. That's really what our church believes about you. And, like, you and you and. And Chris Thomas and others are. I. And I love the dialogue. I'm not Chris. I love Chris. Yeah, but I mean, like, there's a real discrepancy between how they speak to you guys to your face and what they really think about you behind the scenes. They're using you, and maybe you're using them. And there's a. And there's genuine intention for love. But I'm bothered by the duplicity. Personally, I'm bothered by the duplicity when I hear Brad Wilcox talk. It's deeply insulting now.

Steven Pynakker [01:25:22] Yeah. I mean, so I. I hear stuff like that, and quite frankly, it pisses me off because I don't like language like that. I don't like people talking like that. Like, well, they're just playing church and stuff like that, you know. That's very condescending. And listen, I love you guys so much, but, you know, we got 2,000 years of Christianity here. I'm part of a great and wonderful movement that started with zero members in 1906, now has a half billion people are charismatic and Pentecostal people. Within the next couple decades, we are going to be bigger than Islam. So don't tell us we're playing church, man. We ain't playing church. Revivals are happening. Lives are radically being changed. Lives are being transformed. Families are being healed. The blind are seeing. Things are happening in my movement. So don't. Don't say we ain't playing church members. We ain't playing church. This is a move of God that's happening, and it's been going on, and I'm glad to be proud of. I don't want to say I'm proud to be part of it because I don't like to. The whole pride thing, because to me, it's all about the love of Christ. And it's not a. But I mean, if. If I want to brag about what we're doing, I could brag and everything that. A lot of things that can be said about. I can tell you that in 1906, you had a bunch of poor white people, black people, people who fled persecution in Armenia. They were warned by a boy prophet to flee that land. Of course, we have all the persecutions of Armenians and the Armenian genocide later on. So we have the prophetic. We have everything that's there. And here these poor folk in Los Angeles, California, get together and create One of the most biggest movements in the history of Christendom, all within just the last 100 years, called, what? The Pentecostal Charismatic Movement. Right. This is a. Basically a 20th century thing going into the 21st century. It's exploding, and so it's taking over Catholicism.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] It's kicking Catholicism's butt in Latin America.

Steven Pynakker [01:27:27] Absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Assemblies of God, right?

Steven Pynakker [01:27:30] Oh, yeah, Assemblies of God. And there's excesses. There are things that I wholeheartedly reject about these movements. But don't say, don't belittle what we're doing, because what we're doing is so much bigger and more powerful than many other churches are doing. So to say we're playing church when all this is happening and really the good works that we do, I mean, there's. I mean, we have ministries that are feeding the hungry and doing all these radical things and helps and save lives. And 90% of their contributions are going in the field and helping people. You know, we have different groups that are. And we're not organized. We're decentralized for the most part, and so we do a lot of good. And so I have a hard time with somebody saying that we're not. We're playing with chopsticks or we don't. We don't have. No, I'm sorry. But we got the gifts, man. They're fully operational within our movement. We have all the fruits of the spirit. It's there, man. It manifests itself. It's real. Don't tell me that I'm playing church, man. Don't. Don't tell me that.

John Dehlin [01:28:35] I love it.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:37] Yeah, I wasn't expecting to get all like this way. But you know what? I'm going to call you out when you get things right. I love you. But if we want to have real dialogue and we want to actually have conversations, then you also have to, you know, if you're going to criticize me, then you can't be offended by the pushback that I'm going to give you.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] And I think to bring it back to what you love about Mormonism and the Book of Mormon is you're saying the Book of Mormon would support the idea that it would be affirming to your Christianity. The Book of Mormon would not say the corporate LDS Church is the one true church with exclusive authority, priesthood authority. You say you're reading the Book of Mormon would embrace evangelical Christianity as legitimate and as having authority.

Steven Pynakker [01:29:22] It's the signs of a true church that have the gifts manifest in them. Everything that you want in the true church is in our movement. It's there, it's plentiful, and it's just. It's so obvious. So I don't see how. I mean, I'd say if Pentecostals, you know, like John Hamer, last time he was on, he was talking about how if you had a Book of Mormon, let's say the Book of Mormon didn't exist and it landed in Utah, nobody there would recognize it. If it landed in Tennessee. And he said Tennessee, which I think is great because that's where Christopher Thomas is. And a Pentecostal minister picked that thing up.

John Dehlin [01:29:56] He.

Steven Pynakker [01:29:57] And go through it, he'd be like, all right, yeah, I like this book. Right. So to me, the. The Book of Mormon in the early church is. I'm in line with those people. Those are my folk. Them's my people.

John Dehlin [01:30:08] Love it. We even took the wine out. Like the one good. You know, the one enjoyable thing about the sacrament, we took it out.

Steven Pynakker [01:30:14] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] Because the Book of Mormon has wine in the sacrament.

Steven Pynakker [01:30:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] Jesus administering the sacrament with wine.

Steven Pynakker [01:30:20] Yeah. How you ended up with water.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] What's that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:23] And the prayers. Is wine like the prayer Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Yeah. That's weird. Okay, beautiful. All right, let's switch to. You listed some of your favorite Mormon heroes.

Steven Pynakker [01:30:35] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] And I. I love the idea of talking about that. And. And I. I thought it was a little bit. I don't know if you're just being a little bit edgy or controversial, but you've got Paulie, Paul H. Dunn as one of your Mormon heroes. So talk about some of your favorite Mormon heroes.

Steven Pynakker [01:30:48] Well, you know, I. I mentioned Paul H. Dunn just as kind of as a joke, but because he was a hero to so many people and still, I think, has a following. And of course, you did that big takedown of him.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] Oh, was it a takedown?

Steven Pynakker [01:31:01] Well, the reporter that had on there, he took him down. But. But the reality is that Paul H. Dunn is an interesting character. Because I have sat. When you showed those clips of him talking. It's like, I've been in that conference. I've heard those stories. There are plenty of people just like Paul H. Dunn within my movement, so it's more recognizable to me. But I also have to say that Paul H. Dunn makes Mormonism interesting as well. At least he did that and was kind of. And actually, because of Paul H. Dunn, they kind of moved away from those kind of people, those kind of characters, because, you know, but there's a familiarity with Paul H. Dunn. He actually is a very complex man, an interesting guy. He, he, he kind of had some biblical training, so he did, but understanding of scripture a little bit, and he kind of follows the pattern that many charismatic and like televangelists and stuff followed as well. Kind of an ends, justifies the means approach to stuff. I'm going to tell some stories that are kind of probably bs like, there are many times when I'm sitting in the church service and some evangelist, traveling evangelist comes up there and he tells a story and I'm like, that guy's full of it. That guy's just made that story up, you know, So I resonate with that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:08] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:32:09] But also then just how interesting of a story where Paul H. Dunn kind of had his own faith journey and crisis of faith and his rejection of the church. So you can kind of. There's like a, there's a whole. He's a human being. There's a, there's a story being told there. So I think that there's just lessons to be learned. So I kind of did it, you know, cheekily. You know, Paul's son is a hero. But I also think that there's a lot you can learn about the human condition, about religion, and then how somebody could get caught up in telling these stories and believing their own lies. Maybe. I don't know if he really believed that. I think he kind of felt it was just BS And I'm doing it, but I'm keeping. Strengthening people's faith and stuff like that. But it's also an example of how you probably shouldn't when you do the, you know, Moroni's promise, you know, trust your feelings when you feel the spirit, when somebody's telling you bs, then that's why you got to question, you know, your feelings on certain things too. So I think, I think he's a good example of a person that. I think if you look at the whole story, there's, there's a lot that you can learn from a person like that, you know, so when I. It was kind of a, A joke, but, you know, I kind of. But then I go really quick, really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] Like I, I think the Mormon Church is trying to do something important there. So when I think about evangelical Christianity, I think about sometimes Elmer Gantry.

Steven Pynakker [01:33:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:31] Does that name anything?

Steven Pynakker [01:33:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] So like this, it's a fictional character that represents a charismatic. I mean, Oral Roberts. I grew up in the time of like, of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

Steven Pynakker [01:33:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] Jimmy Swagger, Oral Roberts, them. So my people of super charismatic leaders that spin really good yarns, but they Kind of maybe have a corrupt life behind the scenes and. But then if. If people fall too much in love with the charisma and the person number one, they might not be really having a love affair with Christ.

Steven Pynakker [01:34:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:34:07] They're having a love affair with the, with the character. But then also that's a, That's a Sandy foundation, because if the Jim and Tammy Baker will always fall, you know, Jimmy Swagger, Nora Roberts will always fall, Emerald Gantry will always fall, just like Joseph Smith fell, and then where's your faith? And so I think when the church sees someone like 70 years ago, Paul Dunn, or in modern times, Dieter Rukdorf. I know for a fact that the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency don't want any one apostle, because even Holland becoming too charismatic and too popular. And they'll swat down the charisma of one of their leaders, the one of their own, if they're starting to become too popular. Like, there was always this, like, ooh, the ladies think Elder Uchtdorf is cute. He's the silver fox. Or even like Uchtdorf is like Uchtdorfer. Holland are the darlings to the intellectuals. Well, the Brethren swat that. I don't want to swear, but they swat that down, you know what I mean? Because they don't want charisma. And so. And I think that's. Actually, there's some wisdom to that. The cost of that is making the church more bland.

Steven Pynakker [01:35:18] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:19] So you see, that's what they're doing.

Guest 4 [01:35:20] Right, Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:35:20] Yeah. I understand exactly what's going on there. I understand that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:23] But.

Steven Pynakker [01:35:23] And, and so it's his life's illustrative. And so I, when I say hero doesn't necessarily mean that they're sure, you know, all virtuous either. Another person I. I put down was BH Roberts.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] We've got some good episodes on BH Roberts.

Steven Pynakker [01:35:39] Sure. And we can. And so we talked briefly about that. But this was. He was, he was a very interesting man. He was actually a Democrat in a world full of Republicans. He was kind of a. An original thinker. And. And so I think that he's kind of a forgotten guy, you know, within Mormonism, but he was a very, very important person in early 20th century Mormonism. And I just think there's a level of integrity that the man had, was when he started encountering issues with the Book of Mormon and he basically created what would be called an anti Mormon document. He actually. But, but there. When I say anti Mormon, I don't mean that he was some Say he was playing devil's advocate, but I do think that there's more to it than that. But. But he. He really took the text and really did a critical analysis of it and came across a lot of issues with the Book of Mormon and basically laid it all out, showed how many, like, we talked about, like, the naturalistic explanations of the Book of Mormon we talked about yesterday. You know, he kind of on his own, did original research and find. Found many of these things. Right. So props to him for doing the research, taking the text very seriously, and then going full throttle and presenting it to the general authorities. They all know the story. He's like. He goes over the course of a few days to tell them, you know, the issues with the Book of Mormon. Well, anybody that's willing to do that, I give them props for that, you know. And so a forgotten man in many quarters. Intentionally forgotten, unfortunately. Yeah, because I think. I mean, I. One of my first book reviews I did as I recommended that the B.H. roberts studies of the Book of Mormon, because I think it's a very important document, of course, was released like 60 years after his. 60 years after his death or whatever, but it's an important document and this is a very important book. And so when I talk about the fruits, that's another fruit of, like, the intellectual rigor. That's why I like Mormonism over, like, Jehovah's Witnesses, because they don't really encourage higher education, they don't encourage intellectual pursuits like they do within Mormonism. So he represents a different, like a progressive type of Mormonism that Mormonism is perfectly capable of generating. And he was able to do a job on the Book of Mormon where he really, like, looked at it very seriously and saw the issues, was very honest and frank about them. And that's a fruit of Mormonism. That's the fruit of Joseph Smith too, you know. So to me, BH Roberts is just like a great man. I admire him. And, you know, I think everybody should engage his work,

John Dehlin [01:38:28] but not because it'll lead them out of the church.

Steven Pynakker [01:38:31] You know what, Like I said yesterday, the history, your history, it's your birthright to know the full story, warts and

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:39] all, and then you decide what to do with it.

Steven Pynakker [01:38:41] Just lay out all the facts. Right? It's. It's an. You gotta be. You gotta be fully informed. If you. If free agency is to be really, truly be able to be fully utilized is that you have to have fully informed knowledge of the whole thing. You can't just be given piecemeal things and not given the full picture because then you really can't exercise true free agency.

Heroes and Inspiring Figures in Mormon Studies

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:06] Yeah. Who's the next one?

Steven Pynakker [01:39:09] Well, so I think one of the most admirable people that comes out of the Restoration is Joseph Smith iii, who had become the prophet, seer and revelator of the. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This is a man think about who probably in one sense was suffering PTSD all his life because his father was murdered while he was still in his mother's womb. And think of the trauma that she experienced. Right. But when I look at Joseph Smith iii, I see a type of Mormonism that I really. I see another path in there, too. This is. This is a product of Joseph Smith as well, and the kind of man that he was. He was a man of integrity. He could be a legal. A little bit. It's a little irritating about how legalistic he could be in. In trying to deny that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. I think he did personally recognize that he did, but he, in deference to his mother, you know, he never publicly. That's my personal opinion. I think the history is there pretty clearly. But Joseph Smith III has this other manifestation of the Restoration, decides that we don't want to be a church of war, but we want to be a church of peace. So it becomes kind of a peace church. Not like pacifistic, but definitely leans in a peaceful direction. We don't want to be a church that denies the priesthood to the blacks. So all God's children are welcome into his church and can have. Have the priesthood now because.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:40] So you mean there were other Christians that were allowing blacks to have the priesthood in the time? Because usually the apologetic argument for Brigham Young is like, oh, if Brigham Young would have allowed blacks to have the priesthood at the time, that would. That would have been outrageous for everyone.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] He was a product. The. Brigham Young was a product of his time. But I thought the lifting of the priesthood ban in the Reorganized Church came well after Joseph Smith III had died.

Steven Pynakker [01:41:10] No, no. They were. They In. In the Reorganized Church, they did not deny the priesthood to blacks from the very beginning. Yeah. So. So they got that. Right. Right. So when I say, like. Like what is prophetic? Right. Prophetic is being in a. You are going against the grain of society, and you're speaking truth to that time and place, and you're not a product of it. You're standing athwart it and pointing its finger and saying, we are not going to be a church of war. We're going to be A church of peace. We are not going to be a church of denying the priesthood. We're going to be a church that's open. And I think what you're thinking is that they didn't open up the priesthood to women until the 1980s within that church. But this is a church in many ways. In one sense, like when we're looking for fruits. Prophetic. Those are prophetic things in my mind, that they got right, you know, so that, that's, that's a product of the restoration. And he created this church that is. Was a wonderful church. You know, they've gone through some tumultuous times over the last few decades and everything like that. But again, these are. These are believers. It's a wonderful church. And that's a product of Joseph and the restoration. And so I think Joseph Smith III is one of my heroes, you know. Yeah, he's a cool guy. Read more about him. Read his biography by Roger Lallenius. I had him on my program and Interesting, interesting life story.

John Dehlin [01:42:38] So there's an episode we can watch of Mormon book reviews where you not only talk about BH Roberts, but you also, in a separate episode, tell the story of Joseph Smith iii.

Steven Pynakker [01:42:47] Yeah. So I do a book review of Joseph Smith iii and then I had on author Roger Launius, who was the former chief historian for NASA. Come on. And he was a member of the Ralds Church. And we have a nice conversation about Joseph Smith iii. And there weren't. He was not a man without flaws. But generally speaking, I thought he, you know, does a good representation of, of. Of Mormonism. You know, I think it's a, It's a great church that he helped found.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] He certainly made the first presidency and apostles in the late 19th century nervous. Right?

Steven Pynakker [01:43:20] Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Because he, he had a legitimate claim. I mean, there's no doubt. Everybody recognized that he had a legitimate claim to the whole thing.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] Succession.

Steven Pynakker [01:43:28] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's no doubt.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] All right, who's your next?

Steven Pynakker [01:43:33] I just threw this one out here, too, because this is, at the time it was happening, was. It was David Archuleta.

John Dehlin [01:43:39] We'll need to let him know he's getting a shout out.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:41] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:43:41] Please. Hey, David, I'd like to do lunch with you sometime. And you seem like a nice guy. I think we could have good conversations with each other.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] Are you listening him?

Steven Pynakker [01:43:48] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:43:48] Why are you listening, David?

Steven Pynakker [01:43:49] Well, because I think that, you know, within the modern day that we live in, you know, this is a kid. I watched him very closely. Because, of course, I'm all interested in all things Mormonism. So here's this kid on American Idol, and. And then I. I feel bad for almost the entire story of him with his parents and the way his father was. I felt. Always felt so bad for him, right, because you could tell he was being kind of controlled by his dad and manipulated and. And you could just tell this was just. He's a sweet person. Like, you could just tell he's like. He's got a big heart. And I also think he really loves Jesus. You know, I can tell in the way he sings his songs that he really loves Jesus a lot. And I think that, you know, he's. He's got a beautiful voice, and I just think he's really just a wonderful person. So when I say he's a hero, because, you know, you could just see this whole development. Like, I remember I was at the Mormon History association, and Rick Bennett pulls out his phone. He said, oh, David Archuleta came out. I said, well, was anybody surprised by that? You know, I don't think anybody was, but. But I just think just to see his faith journey and what he's had to go through and then him just kind of opening up to people and talking about his struggles that he's having like that, and he's working things out, I just think there's something heroic in him as an individual, you know, that I just find admirable. And I'm just a. More. More power to you, David. I really hope that whatever this. Wherever this journey takes you, that just remember Jesus loves you, man, and just embrace him and all will be well. And so, yeah, I just want to. That's another hero. I just threw out a few names, but, yeah, I just. I feel like, you know, this is. This is the conversation I want to have with people, you know, just talk about different products of the restoration and different people, and there's so many other people. Yeah, go ahead.

Guest 4 [01:45:35] Yeah, I was just saying. I was just thinking with David that I think it's very brave. I think he's very brave in his position, with everyone knowing him. To post that post on. I think it was Instagram, the first post he did, and being so vulnerable, I just think that that's amazing. I think that was very brave and took a lot to do that, but I think it will play a very big role in a lot of people's lives that he did that. So he's also one of my heroes.

Steven Pynakker [01:46:15] And we can't forget about Philo T. Farnsworth, the Inventor of television. That's another one. So I think there's been great people within Mormonism that have made great contributions to our world and to our country. And I think these are all products of Joseph as well. And we need to acknowledge that as

John Dehlin [01:46:33] we're wrapping up this episode, I do want to ask you about a few other heroes. You, you interact, you've interviewed a lot of, a lot of historians, a lot of authors, and, and you interact with a lot of people engaging in Mormonism today. I, you know, I can think of a few that I know you love. Who would you want to mention as, as people you really admire look up to today in the Mormon restoration, ex Mormon kind of worlds?

Steven Pynakker [01:47:03] Well, I think, I mean, I had Don Bradley. I went to and filmed a two part episode with Don Bradley at his place last time I was out here in Utah. And he specifically wanted to come on my program to talk about his faith journey and his interaction with evangelicals. And he felt that my venue was the place to have that conversation. So when I'm sitting there talking to Don Bradley, there's parallels between my faith journey and his. So it was a very touching thing. I think Don Bradley is just a good, decent person and I think his scholarship is great. He's doing a great service to Mormon studies and Mormon scholarship. So I think he's had a heroic life. I think he's had a difficult life for sure. Tormented. Yeah, very much so. Man. And I just love that guy. Just on a personal level. I mean, I was reaching out to him before Bushman was even on the radar. Like he was early on interested in my project and, and made it clear, like, I want to come on your program and tell my story, Steven. And that was pretty awesome, you know, to, for him to do that. So he's just, he's a hero to me for what all that he's gone through and he still, still believes, man. And he loves Jesus, man. And he, and, and, and, and I love him.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] He like was excommunicated or left the church. He's like Maxine Hanks.

Steven Pynakker [01:48:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] He left it as a non believer

Steven Pynakker [01:48:21] atheist to Baha' I to born again Christian, back to Mormonism. Yeah, but that's a complicated story. It's a messy story, but I like the messy stories.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] And he knows the history better than me, Gerardo and Jen.

Steven Pynakker [01:48:32] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:48:33] That's saying much.

Steven Pynakker [01:48:34] Yeah, I mean he's great, you know, and there's another guy that I really love is Thomas Murphy. Okay. Because you know, he was another person who specifically wanted to come on my program to talk about his interaction with evangelicals. So we did a two parter. One was his interaction. The second one was his response to Rod Meldrum coming on my program after he came, you guys had Sorensen or Simon Southerton on yours. And you know, Thomas is, it was a fascinating, he's got a fascinating story that he tells. You know, he was lds and then of course now he, he's still actually technically a member of the church. You know, he was never excommunicated. He came close to being excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:49:15] They summoned him to a disciplinary council in Washington while I was working at Microsoft. And then he called the media and they called off the disciplinary council. But it's because he was the first to publish about the DNA problems with the Book of Mormon even before documentary.

Steven Pynakker [01:49:29] Yeah, he did a Christian. He did a documentary with two documentaries with Christian, Christian documentaries about Mormonism and the Book of Mormon and DNA.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:37] I watched one of the, like part of it on my mission.

Steven Pynakker [01:49:41] Yeah, yeah, he did two of them. So he became actually very well known within evangelical circles because many, many millions of, of evangelicals got to know Mormonism and archaeology and the issues with genetics via Thomas Murphy appearing on these evangelical documentaries that were created. So an interesting guy, but I think what. And this all gets back to one other thing. So I'm at the Mormon History association last year and I see him interacting with his wife and she, I saw her walking around with canes and she has an eye patch on. And I observed him throughout the whole Mormon History association and I saw how he interacted with his wife. And she's been ill. She suffered a stroke that would have killed 99% of people that had it right. And she's recovering and she's doing better. She's really doing great. But when I saw him, the way he interacted with her, I saw nothing but the love of Christ operating through him. And so when I had him on my program, I never talked about his wife. I never brought it up to him. And I thought I, I never asked him about it. I never asked him if it was okay to talk about it. But we're at the tail end of the, of the interview and I go. And it just like I felt like the Lord was telling me, okay, Steven, I had no intention to bring it up. Bring it up. So I told him, I said, you know, I just. And I told him what I just said about how I saw him interacting with his wife. I said, you were there for her and she was there for you. And I just. And I told him how much I thought, how Christ, like I thought his attributes were. And he goes to me, he Sundays, it was three years ago to the day today, that she didn't wake up. And then he felt emotional about it, too. So I really felt like the Lord was bringing that together because I had no intention of bringing it up. But for us to tape this interview, and it had been at that day three years ago exactly, that this happened. I just say that because I just. Whenever I see Christ operating in somebody's life, I want to bring that out and point out that Thomas Murphy is one of the most decent people I've ever met. And so he's a big time hero to me. Big time. I could name a few other names and everything. I mean, Brent Metcalfe, man. I mean, I told him, I said, brent, the biggest problem with you is you came 30 years too soon. You would never have been excommunicated in today's modern church, and you would never been fired from your job, from the church if you were working for the. If you, if you're around today, you're just. You're ahead of your time.

John Dehlin [01:52:29] What do you like about Brent?

Steven Pynakker [01:52:31] That he's a truth seeker, man. He just wants to know the answers. He wants to know the true story. He wants to know the history. He wants to know. He's this truth seeker, man. Wherever I see truth seekers, they're. They're heroes to me, and they put their neck out on the line. Those are heroes, man. You know, Brent's. Brent's just an awesome guy, and it was real privileged to have him, to be able to talk to him and interact him. So that's the cool thing, John, is like, I didn't know a single Mormon year and a half ago, not a single one. And then all of a sudden, I'm talking to these giants, right? And I get to know them on a personal level. And this is the other thing. The conversations that happen off camera are much more interesting than the conversations that happen on camera. And the stories that people tell me are. I mean, I know a lot of stuff that people are, you know, telling me things. I mean, it's remarkable the things that I know very few people know. And people feel that they can confide in me. So that's a real privilege. And I won't divulge anything because I think that's a real privilege to the people who are willing to share things with me. But, yeah, you know, I like Brent Metcalfe a lot. And so, I mean, I Literally had. I don't know how many guests I've had, but I'm sure there's heroic qualities and just about everybody that's there. I like that Richard Bushman's a believer. I like that he believes there are real plates brought to it by an angel to Joseph Smith. I just. I respect believers, right, because he's seen all the information, he's seen all the history, and he chooses to believe. Well, to me, that's heroic in some sense, right, because he's engaging the scholarship. He knows all the warts and all. He believes. He believes there are plates. And so to me, you know, if you. If you have full knowledge of everything and you're still a believer, I have to show respect to you for that because there's a. There's a degree of integrity there, if that makes any sense, you know, so here's another person. I'm. I feel bad if I leave out any of my other guests, but. But, yeah, that there's so many heroes. I've run into so many heroes. And again, these are all products of Joseph in the restoration. These are the fruits. There's a great and mighty people that have come forth.

John Dehlin [01:54:36] Do you want to say what Sandra means to you?

Steven Pynakker [01:54:37] Well, Sandra is like.

John Dehlin [01:54:42] Sandra. I'm talking about Sandra Tanner. Oh, yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:54:44] I mean. Oh, well, now, see, Sandra Tanner is the. That's. She is.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] She.

Steven Pynakker [01:54:51] She's the godmother. Gerald's the godfather. I mean, they are. I mean, when you think of the story of the Tanners, talk about a David and Goliath story. You have these two young kids. They. They do their own investigation. They. They're truth seekers, and they just decide, well, people have a right. They have a birthright to know the history of their church. Right? This is their birthright. So all they did was just publish the old documents and get the information out there. Truth seekers, you know, and that's what makes them so awesome, is all they were doing was it's with their little, you know, little one of those machines that they. Stenographed machine, right? And then little Sandra going up. Up into the church library and doing research and. And all this kind of stuff. And. And, I mean, their story is so remarkable, man. And. And so just to see, like, this engagement happening throughout the decades, their Persona non grata, people won't. She goes up to m. To the mha, and people just stay away from her. I don't have anything to do with them. You have Gerald, who's a giant. He. He identifies the Salamander letter as A fake. Now, he. It was in his best interest to embrace the Salamander letter because it would completely just embarrass. Embarrass the church. But he had so much integrity that he wouldn't do that. He was a truth seeker, man.

John Dehlin [01:56:24] And he did it without forensics, right?

Steven Pynakker [01:56:26] Yeah, yeah. He just was a. He was a genius because he could just tell by the wording and everything like that that there was something off about it, you know? And so, and, and so Gerald is a great man. He was a genius. And Sandra Tanner is like I tell people. I think we mentioned you just had her on the other night. She still has her fastball, man. I mean, you know, that's one of the reasons I have. I want to get her back on is because, man, we got to document everything we can. We got to record everything with her, we got to talk with her, because when she's gone, it's going to be this void, this huge void. So we need to just take advantage of her. You have her out every week, whatever you got to do, you know, because she's such an important person within the restoration. And, and, and, and she, and she and her husband in this little tiny storefront in a house, completely changed their trajectory of one of the biggest, most powerful churches in the world, right? I mean, that's. That's the stuff of legends, right? And so, yeah, Sandra, she is just. She's the goat. She's the best. I was talking to Allison last night when I was dinner, and Allison's one of my friends and she works with Sandra. And I said, you know, it's going to be. When. When she passes, it's going to be like, probably dozens of people that will have to grab the torch. She. In other words, there's no. There will never be another Sandra Tanner. So they're going to be just. It's all going to be divvied up to all different people to carry on her legacy. And so I feel like in one sense, what I'm doing is much closer to the legacy of what Gerald and Sandra Tanner have been trying to do than many. What other. Much more so than what other Christians are doing. So I immolate Gerald, and I honor them. And I just want to say I'm so grateful to have met you, Sandra. I wish I could have met Gerald, but I'm so glad that you're part of my life and a friend.

John Dehlin [01:58:28] Beautiful. I guess when we talk about goats, we have to mention Fon Brody, of course.

Steven Pynakker [01:58:34] Yeah. Yeah, of course. Well, that, that's that one, I almost thought about bringing. Writing that one down, you know. You know, her book is. No, it's kind of been dated a little bit now. It's still a very good book. Is it, though? Well, because she does a lot of Freudian psycho. A little bit of Freudian stuff in there.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:50] There.

John Dehlin [01:58:52] But that doesn't invalidate the history she got.

Steven Pynakker [01:58:54] But I think the only issue I have with Brody is that she doesn't understand what it's like to be a believer. She just assumed that Joseph Smith then. When I say was a believer. No, no, no. What I'm saying is before she was a believer before. Well, by the time she's writing how

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:11] you can be a believer. And a. And the lies at this.

Steven Pynakker [01:59:15] Yeah. So in other words, she thinks either

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:17] is very black and white. So she comes out of the church and writes the book. But still seeing the world a little bit black and white where.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] Like calling Joseph a charlatan, basically.

Steven Pynakker [01:59:26] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:27] And he. He really didn't believe what he was talking.

Steven Pynakker [01:59:31] I believe that Joseph believed.

John Dehlin [01:59:32] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:59:33] That's my big thing. And I think her premise comes out is that it's very secular and very naturalistic in a sense, and doesn't take into account that Joseph Smith. And if you read Joseph Smith's letters, he talks about how his heart goes out to those people. Like, I think Grant Palmer talked about it on one of your episodes where he was writing about a situation or New York, and he's seeing all these lost souls and he feels my heart goes out to these people. These, these aren't. This isn't the writings of a man who doesn't believe. I think he felt that he was. What his endeavor was doing was the cause lead people to repentance and, and, and to Christ. I think that's what Joseph Smith believes he was doing. I don't think Fawn takes that into account. But that's my only. That's about. My only critique is just that, you know, little more secular. I think she's a little too secular in her viewpoints of Joseph. But I love her. She's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:00:22] All right. Believers tend to kind of have a soft spot in their heart. For believers.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:27] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [02:00:28] I think that's important. Yeah. Like when I talk to Rod Meldrum, man. I fly here this Tuesday and Rick Bennett picks me up and on my way to go meet Rod Meldrum where he's building his new state of the art house production center. I mean, it's amazing what he's doing.

John Dehlin [02:00:51] The house that science built.

Steven Pynakker [02:00:53] Yes. And. And I just get such a kick out of Rod, I think. I mean, I. And I just like, you know, and this is the thing is, like, you know, I know he said some stuff. I haven't watched all of Part three, and I know he says some things. And like I told you before, I said early on in the. Before we taped all the. You guys taped all the episodes, I said, I don't think Rod is a racist. I just don't think he understands that something. Some of the things he says come across or are racist. Right. And. But he doesn't see that. And he doesn't. He doesn't realize he's a bit naive in that sense.

Guest 4 [02:01:25] Right.

Steven Pynakker [02:01:25] But I know so many people like Rod in my movement that just believe. So, like, when I go to MHA and I talk about. I'm talking to Heartlanders, you know, and Rod's going to come on my program, and everyone just rolls their eyes. Oh, you know, the reaction. The funny thing about Rod Meldrum is that. But people have reactions, a visceral reaction to Rod, much like they have a visceral reaction to you. And the funny thing about it is that you both have the same enemies, too. That's what I think is so funny. So you have that, which is so interesting. But I look at Rod and he just believes, man. I'm like, why do these people dump on this guy? He just believes. Isn't there any room in your heart for somebody who's just a true believer that maybe they're going to say things that. That maybe aren't. They're impolite and. And you're just like, oh, I love you, man. I just love you. And I get where you're coming from. I understand it. I don't think he has a malicious bone in his body. I think he's got a big heart. And you know what? What I like so much about Rod was he said, you know what my goal is? His goal isn't even really to try to prove the Book of Mormon or to try to do it. He says, my goal is to lead people to Christ. Help lead people to Christ. Well, that's my language, man. I want to help lead people to Christ, too. Right. I mean, in one sense, as you know, I'm not here to proselytize, but I like his spirit. I like. I like. There's. There's a tenderness there that I appreciate in Rod. So I'm like. I tell people I'm an evangelical fanboy of Rod Meldrum. I like the guy. He's a good guy. But I understand there's a lot of things, very, very problematic things that he said and I acknowledge those things as well. But I, like I said, I don't think he's, he's a malicious actor.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] So there you have it. Kind words for Rod Meldrom on Mormon Stories podcast, courtesy of Steven Piner. And I agree, I think there's a real integrity to Rod Meldrum because his embarrassing, you know, how I talked about like Brad Wilcox and like what the church says publicly to the world and evangelicals and then what it says behind the scenes. Rod's just like, no, no, no, none of this, none of this double speak. What do we believe? What's in the scriptures, what's in Mormon scriptures. And we've got to stay true to that regardless of political correctness or social trends like follow the brethren, follow the scriptures. And there's a real integrity to that that I think sometimes progressive or neo apologetic Mormonism or even the PR strains of the modern LDS Church don't have as much loyalty to a certain type of integrity that you have to respect Rod for. Even if what he's believing or saying is false or offensive.

Steven Pynakker [02:04:10] Yeah, yeah. And, and, but I acknowledge there, there are many well meaning Christians in my movement that believe some pretty awful things sometimes. And I'm like, oh, you know, I just, my attitude is, father, forgive them for they know not what they do and just try to, you know, forgive people who might not be fully knowledgeable about certain subjects because in many cases, because they, they themselves just have, because of the environment there and they haven't been exposed to a lot of things and so they kind of come up with ideas that might lead to things that aren't very nice. But I just, I just try to be gracious towards people who might not fully see the full picture at times. And there's a lot of people like Rod in my movement too. So he resonates with me. He's, he's, he's, he's. I really think that in some level I've, I've watched a lot of his programs and I think on some level he, he understands. I think he has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I think he does.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] And I just want to end by saying I've been moved by Christians interested in Mormonism over the past many years. Whether it's Sean McCraney, whether it's Allison, our friend Emily Robbins, Randy, Randy Bell, Sandra again, you there, Chris Thomas. Like, these are some of the best people I've ever met in terms of like, just trying to live A life of kindness and compassion and love, like ex Mormons and Mormons could learn a lot from the people I just mentioned.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:42] Thank you for including me in that list. I. I appreciate the kind words there. And, and yeah, these. There's a lot of. There's not a whole lot of us because there's a lot of evangelicals that are steeped in ignorance and bigotry and intolerance and they haven't taken the time to do the research and to also get to know the people. I don't like the approach that a lot of these others do, but I think that there is a small little group of people, a remnant, if you will, of people that want to engage the restoration in a loving, Christian way. And I hope to be a part of that conversation.

John Dehlin [02:06:21] Beautiful. Thanks. Thanks, Stephen.

Steven Pynakker [02:06:25] Thank you, John. I love you, man. I love you so much.

John Dehlin [02:06:28] Love you too. Thus ends part three of our epic two day set of interviews with Steven Pinecre, host of Mormon Book Reviews podcast and YouTube channel. Will include all the links. We probably have like 50 links for today in the show. Notes of all the past Mormon stories. Episodes of Brett Metcalf and Thomas Murphy and Sandra and B.H. roberts with Shannon Caldo Montez. I mean, there's. It's so fun. Mormon. I. People always ask me like, John, you've been doing this 18 years. How in the world can you still be doing this? It's kind of fun, right, Steven?

Steven Pynakker [02:07:03] So awesome, dude.

John Dehlin [02:07:04] I love it.

Steven Pynakker [02:07:05] Oh, man, I tell you, you know, people go to Florida. I know all these Mormons love to go to Orlando for their, their Disney World and stuff like that. And they go to, they go to Florida. They think, well, Florida is just one big Disney World. They don't think, like, there's real people that live there have nine to five jobs. I just think everybody lives in Disney World. I come here to Utah. This is my Disney World. I'm like, oh, wait a second, people have nine to five jobs here and this is just regular life. But like, for me, this is like my Disney World. I love it. I love the people, I love the movement, I love the history. I love the story. I just think that the whole thing is this grand story that I think is awesome. It's worth studying. I love it. It's really my life's passion. And I am so grateful that I am able to do this and be here. I'm still flabbergasted by it, but I'm so humbled and I really thank you again for doing this because I think this is Kind of important to add to the conversation and actually be able to put my two cents in, because for years, I, like, I don't have anybody to talk to. I could, like, I would tell somebody, like, a joke that I would make, but I had to. About Mormonism, but I'd have to spend 30 minutes explaining to them why it was funny. And then all of a sudden, I'm talking to a Mormon on the phone. Oh, hey, that's funny. I like that, you know, or, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, I could even use my jokes now, you know, which is kind of. Kind of. So I just feel like in one sense, I have found a community that I am part of, and I love the people of the Restoration, and I am, in one sense, I am part of your community.

John Dehlin [02:08:37] Yeah. In a way, you just bore your testimony of Mormonism.

Steven Pynakker [02:08:40] Yeah. You know, it's pretty wild. I just think that if you really take the time, it's worth it to study it and just. It's a great story. And so for me, I look at the whole picture. I. I look at all the ugliness, warts, and all the full story, but I. I feel a lot of love. That's. That's my main thing is I just love. I love y'.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:05] All.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:05] And if I sound too critical at times, it's. I'm only doing it out of love. I'm not doing out of malice. And I'm not trying to say you're. You're wrong. You're going to hell. I just want to say I love you. And let's just keep talking, man. Let's just have these conversations. I'm looking forward to continuing the dialogue.

John Dehlin [02:09:21] All right, well, we. We love that you love us, Steven Pinegar, but we also love you. And. And you are part of our community. Absolutely. As much as any of us are. We're all part of this beautiful community. And on behalf of Gerardo and Jen and myself and Mormon stories, we are. We love having you as a part of our family.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:46] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:09:46] Thanks for being part of our family.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:48] I found my place. Thank you. And, Geraldo, thank you for taking the time to come here. And. You're a revelation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:53] I love you.

John Dehlin [02:09:56] All right, all right, everyone. We're gonna. We're gonna end this Part three. We're gonna start. Take a little break, start up with part four, which is maybe, you know, I. I like to think of it as the Mormon Church needs help. It's spiraling in a free fall. It's in decline rapidly. And that's not unique to the Mormon Church. You know, many Christian churches are in decline, and I love the idea of just giving Stephen 45 minutes to kind of act as a consultant. So we're going to. Basically, we know that the church headquarters watches Mormon stories. We know that they pay attention to what we do. They react to what we do. We know they're watching. So we're gonna. We're. We're. On behalf of the corporate LDS Church, we're going to offer as a free service funded by us external consultants, telling the Mormon Church what it needs to change to. To do less harm and to maybe stop poking itself in the eye and maybe to help it be healthier at a minimum, and maybe even die less fast or even turn things around a little bit. How does that sound?

Steven Pynakker [02:11:09] Okay. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting. We'll see where this goes, man.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] All right. All right, so don't go away. Come right back. Whether it's on the podcast feed or on YouTube or on the live stream, however you consume it, come right back for part four with Steven Pinegar, where he will give his recommendations to the modern Mormon Church. Thanks, Stephen.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:31] All right.

Steven Pynakker [02:11:31] Thanks, dude.

Recommendations for the Latter-day Saint Church

Part 4 of 5 · Ep. 1573

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm John Dehlin. It's March 24th and we are here in an epic two day long series of interviews with host of Mormon Book Reviews podcast and YouTube channel and Christian Progressive. No, Libertarian Christian and Evangelical Christian, Steven Pinegar. Hey, Steven.

Steven Pynakker [00:00:20] Hey, John. Boy, I'm having fun here. And yes, Libertarian Christian would probably be an apt description.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] Perfect. Well, we've talked about what got Stephen interested in Mormonism as an evangelical Christian. We've talked about his view on how the Book of Mormon was created in part two, a secular view that was part two. Part three. We talked about what he loves about Mormonism in the Book of Mormon with maybe a few criticisms sprinkled in. This is part four where we are going to be sort of like retaining Steven Pinecker as a consultant to the Mormon Church on their behalf. We're, we know the Mormon Church, the LDS Church watch Mormon stories. We know they react to what we say and do. Hi, Mormon Church Correlation Committee and those who watch. And we're doing you a service. Now, Stephen knows about Christianity, he knows about churches. He knows about Mormonism better than you and better than us. And we're retaining him for a good 45 minutes to an hour to provide you with free recommendations, free consulting. And that's what this episode, part four, is going to be about. A smart evangelical libertarian Christian that knows Mormonism better than all of us. He's going to give you the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, some, some sincere, heartfelt advice. How does that sound?

Steven Pynakker [00:01:39] Done in love? Absolutely done in love. I don't presume to tell you how to run your church. I would never do such a thing. This could be general advice even given to other churches as well. But I just feel like I could make some, maybe some recommendations just to say, hey, I love you guys, but know, maybe you could make adjustments here, there, or maybe reconsider things and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] Yeah, let's do it.

Steven Pynakker [00:01:59] All right, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Let's start. Where, where are we going to start?

Steven Pynakker [00:02:02] You know, I don't have it written down, but I, I, I just thought of it and one of them is keep Mormonism weird. Right? I think one of the things that I love about Mormonism is that it is different. And I was talking to an anthropologist on the plane on my way here and he's here for a conference and he thinks he might know Thomas Murphy, but he's in a kind of a different field of anthropology. And I, I said, dude, there's so many interesting things about Mormonism. I said, do you know that in Mormon folklore they believe that Bigfoot is Cain? I said, I mean, come in. As an anthropologist, you got to really think that's like, really interesting. And then I told him about how this, like in. Within the Christian scriptures we have Enoch is translated. He's taken up. But in Mormonism and a. Just Enoch, it's the city of Enoch that gets translated. I said, we got this city floating around in space that will be returning one day. I said, now I just go to this anthropologist. Now, isn't that really cool? Like, doesn't that want to make you just kind of sit back and eat some popcorn and like, let's see how this tale unfolds, you know, And I'm saying this, of course, I'm having fun here. But there are some unique, interesting ideas in folklore within doctrine, within scriptures. That is kind of just. It's imaginative, it's interesting. I'm a big science fiction guy, so somebody who likes sci fi likes, you know, the idea of cities floating in space is kind of a sci fi idea too. So just keep Mormonism weird. Don't try to. You know, we talked about correlation. You know, how it's kind of just. Just kind of taken the life out of so many of the, you know, the ability to just think out loud and explore ideas and concepts and have a little fun with it too. People should have the freedom to be able to do that. So don't try to make yourself in. Just. Just make yourself like a mainline Protestant church and try to get to be just like us. I mean, you got to retain. That's part of your legacy. What makes you unique. It's the weirdness that an outsider would look at and say, that is really weird. But it's also very interesting as well. So that's just one thing that comes off the top of my head.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] So on the one hand, I agree with you. I remember Michael Quinn once saying that when the Mormon Church started backing off the teaching that. That men could become gods, that Michael Quinn described that as selling your birthright for a mess of porridge. That was at a sunstone that I attended. And also, you know, now it's really topical because right now in March of 2022 Mormon apostles and, and. And First Presidency members are going around the. The U.S. church and saying, stop talking about mother in heaven and that because obviously it provides a lot of theological problems for the church and it's embarrassing and it empowers women and all sorts of things. So so on the one hand, I guess I'm torn. On the one hand, I'm like, yeah, keep it weird. You're, you're backing off the things that made Mormonism cool to me when I was growing up, and that could be the way that you positively differentiate yourself. On the other hand, these are anti Christian, anti Bible teachings that there's a mother God, that the men can become God. I mean, that was the whole basis for the God makers that. So like I do you have limits to the weirdness that you want Mormonism to preserve?

Steven Pynakker [00:05:20] There's limits to the weirdness, but also there are ways, tools that orthodox Christianity can engage some of these different ideas as well. So like the idea of men becoming gods, there is like within Christian ideas, especially within Eastern Orthodoxy, the idea of like apotheosis or theosis that you are kind of become like a God in that sense. So when Mormons say that they can become like a God and in a very literal sense, how it's portrayed is, yes, definitely problematic to Christianity. But some of the weird things can also offer avenues of, of conversation that we can try to maybe look at what Mormonism can bring to the table within their concepts and philosophies that they brought. So let's talk about apotheosis and these things and then have an interesting conversation philosophically. On a metaphysical level, what can Mormonism bring to the table to introduce ideas to Christianity that make us rethink things and look at things from a different perspective. So it could be valuable in that way. But I also think that, yeah, there are things that obviously aren't, you know, biblical, aren't Christian, but that's what differentiates, differentiates Mormonism from Christianity as well. So like, like you said, like, I'm torn because on one hand I want to keep Mormonism weird, but I also want to have Mormonism move in a direction that's leaning, comes more in a, in a Protestant evangelical view, but also try to retain its heritage and the weirdness because, look, I've come from the charismatic renewal movement, Pentecostal, we have some crazy stories that we tell too, and that's part of our heritage as well. So I just think you kind of embrace the weird stuff. I embrace the, I mean, some of the stuff just embarrasses me. It's very cringy. But I also know that's part of the heritage that I belong to and I don't think I should whitewash it.

Guest [00:07:09] Are you bothered by the idea of Heavenly Mother?

Steven Pynakker [00:07:12] So the only way Heavenly Mother works is if The Mormons want to embrace talks with Catholics and say Mother in heaven's Mary. That would be one way within one aspect of Christianity that you could say that you could make an argument. The problem, see that's the, that becomes the problem with the literalism having God with flesh and bone. Because within the Christian concept, because we believe that God is spirit, we believe that he has both masculine and feminine attributes, right? Because we're all created in his image. And so he has all aspects of humanity as well, you know, within that. So he's going to have a mask inside, he's going to have a feminine side. And this is of course, this is our meager attempt to try to describe the divine to God. Right. So the words that I would even use to express it are very inadequate. But when you give God a body, then now the divine attributes of God, the feminine attributes of God has to be given a body as well.

Guest [00:08:06] Right?

Steven Pynakker [00:08:07] And so that's what, that's, that's one of the issues that you run into. Whereas we don't have that problem. But if you have God with a body of flesh and blood, then you have, it demands that you have a heavenly mother. Within Mormon theology, you know, it's, it doesn't make sense if there isn't or you're, if you don't acknowledge it, then it kind of, you're taking away part of the story of who God is and what the nature of God is within a Mormon, you know, framework and concept. So I love it.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] Okay, okay, what's, what's next? Next suggestion.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:38] Okay. So you know, one of the things like we talked about last time was like opening up the worship services.

Guest [00:08:45] Like

Steven Pynakker [00:08:47] it is so dry and very non expressive and very non interesting. And worship is our encounter with our. See, worship is about bringing heaven down into earth like a piece of heaven. And you're engaging things in a divine way. And when I'm in heaven, man, I want to celebrate. And I think worship is bringing down heaven into earth and having this joyful. Make a joyful noise, sing and shout, clap your hands, raise your hands, be expressive. And I think that that is so important. Look, we even see it in modern Judaism to this day, the way they dance. And it's very joyful. It's a joyful exercise. And see, worship should be both a joyful exercise but also, you know, where the praise and worship and all that and then also just acknowledgement that we, how much we love God and everything like that and we, we appreciate what Jesus did for us at the cross. That should be a celebration. I think you lose something when you try to just make it into like a monotone. It's just going through the motions.

Guest [00:10:00] Reverend.

Steven Pynakker [00:10:01] Reverend. You're basically just going, doing the same thing every Sunday, repeating the same thing. Maybe just the songs are different. When I was with the Church of Jesus Christ services, man, they have, their services are set up very similar, but what they do is, okay, play hymn, let's do hymn number 231. They don't even plan what hymns they're going to play. The pastors don't even plan. They don't even know who's going to preach that morning. Everything is done and guided by the Spirit. And actually the Book of Mormon tells us that all the services, that's how they should be conducted. And so I think that you need the idea of spontaneity, openness to the Holy Spirit to enter into the service, like really engage and then actually have a manifestations of the Holy Spirit. You're not able to do that if you're not worshiping on a level that is opening up the idea of having the divine enter into the service. Allow the Spirit to enter in because it's preparatory. You're preparing your hearts and to hear the Word, but also to encounter the Spirit. And the best way we can do it is through praise and worship. And I think you miss out on something when you take a key element. A part of Christianity is giving thanks and praise to the Lord and doing in an animated way. If you want to clap your hands, you want to raise your hands, heck, if you want to dance, guess what? It's all in the Bible. It's all scriptural. And I think that's how really I think they should open up to give more freedom of worship in this church services.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] What's interesting about that, like, when Margi and I and the kids weren't able to attend the Mormon Church anymore, we started going to other churches. And I attended South Mountain Church, you know, here. And there's this idea of a spiritual language, but I think it's just conditioning, personally, where, like when I attend South Mountain and they've got a rock band up there and a preacher that's charismatic, it's not like it's good. It's like, for me, it's not like I'm home. And I'm not criticizing. Oh yeah. I'm just saying for me, feeling home, at home, spiritually, I've been conditioned to associate quiet and reverent and solemn as like spirituality for me.

Guest [00:12:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] And like, for me, the Most spiritual moments in Mormonism are singing hymns in a choir or like at General Conference where we're all standing and singing and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is singing. That's, that's, that has become my spiritual language. Even now. If I go sit General conference, hear the Motown choir sing or music in the spoken word comes on or whatever it's called now, that speaks to me. And when I go to, you know, any other non Mormon denominational church, I feel kind of empty. It feels like I'm cheating. It feels. And I'm not saying again, it's not a criticism. Yeah. It's just like, what if. It's just if they were to make those changes you recommend, would that actually be good for the members or would the members go, well, all of a sudden the church is getting weird and it's like, it's starting to feel more like Joel Osteen than the Mormonism. Do you know what I'm saying?

Steven Pynakker [00:13:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Do you guys? Jen, you see what I'm saying?

Guest 5 [00:13:07] Yeah. Yeah. I remember someone I met once that was flds, and then they switched over to mainstream Mormonism. But they said one of the things that they missed was singing hymns because they would sing him loud and in their services, even though they were the same hymns that we sing in our church, the more. Yeah, they were. They would sing him loud and move and he missed that. He said, that's interesting.

Steven Pynakker [00:13:37] I didn't know that about the flds. I appreciate hearing something like that, learn something like that. That's cool. Yeah. So I get what you're saying, and this is the thing though too is like, I am not a real big fan of like a modern evangelical contemporary worship.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] You're not a Joel Osteen fan?

Steven Pynakker [00:13:51] No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] Jolly Rick Warren. How about Rick Warren?

Steven Pynakker [00:13:53] No. Not a big fan. No. I'm not really a big fan of a lot of your main even job. No, I mean, I've attended mega churches. I helped start one and you know, I mean, I've been involved and plugged into that world. But there is a certain it's vapidness. It's just, it's, it's, it's very superficial. It's like singing love songs with to Jesus type kind of thing that I don't really care for. I just think that when I, I don't require a drum set, I don't require smoke machines when I'm talking about worship and stuff like that. But what I'm saying is it's actually about freedom to have the freedom to Be able to do it. So if your preference is to just sing hymns very quietly, and if that how. What is comfortable for you, and that's where you get nourishment from that. That is what works for you. But if there's other people that want to sway, that want to make a joyful noise, that want to be more participatory in the worship service, I think we should have freedom and liberty in Christ to be able to worship him in whatever way we want to express it. But by making it homogeneous and all the same and just monotonous. I don't, I don't. I don't. I don't see what we could do anything out of that.

Guest [00:15:04] Yeah. Because we got to a point where like, even the instruments, you know, are like only certain instruments.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] No trumpets. Yeah. Like. Or no guitars.

Guest [00:15:13] Right.

Guest 5 [00:15:15] I remember. I do remember when they took out guitars, because there used to be guitars in sacrament.

Guest [00:15:20] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:15:20] Like, they would play the guitar sometimes and now it's just. Yeah. But then they just move to. I think I've only seen like, violins and pianos in the last little bit.

Guest [00:15:32] Yeah. And. Well, even it can be just the smallest thing. Like, I remember growing up in. In Mexico, in the church, we would. So we would have the normal three hymns, you know, at the beginning, the sacrament hymn, and then the. The. The for the end. But then growing up, we. We had even like a middle hymn and everyone would stand up in sacrament meeting and sing that. But I don't know if at some point they took that out of the handbook. And I remember when my dad was in the stake presidency, they made it their mission to end that. To make sure no bishop was enforcing or doing like the intermediate.

Guest 5 [00:16:12] Arrest him.

Guest [00:16:13] Yeah. The rest him.

Guest 5 [00:16:14] They got that. Arrest him. Yeah.

Guest [00:16:16] And I mean, that was probably one of the most interesting parts of it all because everyone stands up and sings

John Dehlin [00:16:25] and you're getting feeling nappy. You wake up and singing.

Guest [00:16:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Singing him.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:29] And it kind of wakes you up.

Guest 5 [00:16:30] Right.

Guest [00:16:31] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:32] So

Guest [00:16:34] it has become really legalistic where like the same, like you mentioned the episode before, the same way it is being done in Utah has to be done in Mexico and everywhere else.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] I actually believe that that's true. Gerardo, that's important. Thank you for that. I. I really think the reason why the church backed off its charismatic impulses is because I think Hiram Page is the guy. Like, remember when Joseph Smith was translating, then somebody else wants to translate with the seer stone. And Joseph's like, hey, only there's only one prophet here. It's like if you start. And this relates to Denver Snuffer too, and in his teaching that you can have your own personal relationship with Jesus and, and actually get a witness of Jesus for yourself. Like, as soon as members start feeling spiritually empowered, then they start getting their own revelations for what's good for them. And so the more you're encouraging speaking of tongues, prophecy, visions, healing, all the charismatic gifts and just more intense even spiritual experiences, maybe you lose a little bit of control.

Steven Pynakker [00:17:42] Yeah, I think that that's, I mean, that that was early on. I even tell people when very early on, Joseph basically asserts that, no, it's only him. Also when he first starts encountering tongue speech in Kirtland with Black Pete is the only name we have. He's an African American gentleman who spoke in tongues, apparently, in Kirtland. And Joseph put the kibosh on that, which of course then Brigham would show up on and he'd start speaking in tongues. Maybe some people said, well, maybe because this Brigham was white, that he made it more acceptable. But, yeah, this idea that of control, but that goes back to how we discussed before. There's this impulse within organizations. It's not just the LDS Church. Almost all churches have what you could look at as that beginning spark where there was a spontaneity and there was this move of the spirit and then it just slowly but surely gets clamped down, controlled. So I think this is a human impulse. I don't think this is just the church. I think this is a human church ever. Yeah, basically, that's what happens. Yeah. And so see, I'm, I'm radical Protestant, I'm a libertarian. So I'm, I'm not going to let any organization dictate to me how I'm going to worship and encounter him and engage him. And so anybody that gets in the way of me being able to do that, I'm just going to say no. That's, I'm, I'm. It's me and him, man. No media. And if I, I'm going to worship him any way that I see fit.

Guest [00:19:06] Yeah. And if at the end the church interest is to point people to Jesus, is it. Should the church really be interested about not being a rest hymn and not having people being a little bit more charismatic? Like, is that, you know, I think,

John Dehlin [00:19:27] I think the modern Mormon Church sees itself as the intermediary between the members and Jesus. I really do. Just bishops, the fact that you don't, you don't Jesus, your repentance isn't between you and Jesus repentance is between you and your bishop. Right. And. And even temple, you have to pay your tithing or you to the church or you can't get the most important ordinances. Like, I think the church just really needs to be in between you. No, and I'm not saying this for nefarious reasons. I think they're sincere. They're just like, hey, trust us, you know, we understand Jesus best. We'll help you have the right relationship with Jesus. Maybe Herodo. I mean.

Guest [00:20:09] Yeah, no, I agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] So, I mean, they are special witnesses of Christ. The Mormon apostles call themselves special witnesses, which means better than everyone else in the world, basically.

Steven Pynakker [00:20:22] I mean, that's how an outsider would certainly perceive it, that that's what the claim that they're making. And so, and then. So that they wonder why other groups might be a little offended by them, you know, that that might be part of the reason that they're making these claims. You know, I got on this list here, actually, I think that I can combine a few things here, and that is more freedom of thought and conscience, make the word of wisdom voluntary and make tithing voluntary. And. And I think that all comes tight ties into a theme here, which is you got to give more autonomy to the individual. One of the interesting concepts within Mormonism is free agency, which is. But what good is free agency if you don't have any choices to make? Right? So I think when I, when I wrote down these three ideas is that within Protestantism, the idea kind of there's like radical. There's a notion of individualism and the individual's relationship with Jesus Christ, but also the idea that you. You make the choices, you choose how to engage these things, and then Jesus gives you liberty. You have liberty in Christ to do things. Whether, you know, originally the. The word of wisdom was not mandatory. It was not. You could, you could enter the temple and not practice the word of wisdom. And then they made it into a. A rule that in order to enter into a holy place, you had to follow the word of wisdom and also tithe. And so you're. You're basically telling people the only way you can be in a holy place is that you've got to give up a lot of your autonomy and free agency to be there. Which seems to be counter to one of the more interesting doctrines of Mormonism, which is free agency. And word of wisdom was voluntary, tithing was voluntary. All these things that I'm mentioning to is already baked. It was there from the beginning. That was already there. So those are ideas that they could just re. Embrace and I think would bring. It will just be good and healthy for people to be able to make their own choices.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] Yeah. Especially with word of wisdom. It's so weird that like along the Wasatch front, people are addicted to like 82 ounce Diet Coke beverages. But they, but, but a cup of coffee or a, you know, glass of green tea or whatever is like, will keep you out of your eternal salvation.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:44] In Mormonism, how many people drink monster energy drinks instead of coffee? And that stuff's just so full of chemicals. It's not healthy. And all the science has come for and this is the thing, like why can't we look at science and also let see, God gave us the Word and he also gave us creation to inform us. Well, the creation or science informs us that tea is good for you, coffee's good for you, wine's good for you. These are not harmful things. Anything in excess can be a problem, but that just makes sense. But these are actually helpful things that can be helpful to you. And so I think that I don't really see the purpose. It just, I mean, coffee drinking is so innocuous. It, I mean, I've been drinking it since I was a young child and to just make it this, this barrier, that internal salvation. Yeah, yeah. Like you can't progress, you're stuck. I mean, you're, you're not, you're hanging with me, you know, and you know, you're not getting, you're not progressing right. You know, I'm. You'll be hanging out with us, with us lesser beings, if you will, or lesser people.

Guest [00:23:45] So.

Steven Pynakker [00:23:46] Yeah, I mean, but again, it just comes to the concept of like, there's an idea of free agency within Mormonism. And I kind of like some of the concepts that they talk about. But then it's almost like we're gonna, we're gonna bring this into this doctrine, into the fold and it's gonna be part of who we are, but then we're gonna take a lot of it away from you. And it just seems like this doesn't, it doesn't make sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] On the one hand, this idea of getting rid of the coffee prohibition makes a lot of sense. Like I'm thinking about my mission in Guatemala. You try and tell a Latino, not just Latinos, but definitely in Latin America. You're, you're teaching the discussions, everything's going great, and then you're like, no cafe. And they're like, what, you know what I mean?

Guest [00:24:26] Like, or in Germany, no beer.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Yeah, yeah. Like at least sometimes you have to boil the water just to make it clean. And cafe is the way you get your hydration.

Guest [00:24:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] In. In some parts of at least Guatemala.

Steven Pynakker [00:24:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] So to tell them they can't have their morning cafe is just ridiculous. But, so that's on the one hand, I think it. You probably might get more baptisms meaningfully, but you would lose all the Mormons that say, wait a minute, if that was revelation for 150, 200 years, now they're changing it. What else did you get wrong? So, so you. Would you. Stephen, I'm not arguing and debating you for these, but on that one, no coffee, no tea, no tobacco, no alcohol. That's so interwoven into the Mormon identity at this point. It seems like if the church changed that, they would lose way more people, current members who are saying, like, you're just caving to social pressure. Like, you're basically saying that the past prophet sees and revelators were wrong.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:28] Well, but see, this is the key thing I say voluntary. In other words, these are guidelines we're giving you.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Oh, yeah.

Guest [00:25:35] Like, yeah, we're going back.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:25:37] Yeah, exactly. So we're just going back to how we used to do it. It's a voluntary thing. These are, these are things that we would recommend to you. And. And you're giving them the freedom to make that choice. So if a person chooses that, they have the conviction that they feel that they need to follow the word of the wisdom and that gives, and that actually benefits them. Because actually having denial to self in some areas can be a good exercise. You know, like when people give up something for Lent. And all these kind of things give the idea of sacrifice. But these all have to be exercised on an individual level. It has to be a choice that you're making because then, then it becomes voluntary and then it becomes real because you are making a sacrifice that you have the option to do these things, but you choose not to. And I actually think that can be more spiritually fulfilling to you as well. But, man, I'll tell you, I mean, they could. That sometimes a cup of coffee can really do you a lot of good first thing in the morning. I heartily recommend it. And so I'm just saying drink coffee too. I mean, it's awesome. And. But you should have the freedom and liberty in Christ to be able to exercise your options and not be put under condemnation or looked down upon because you have a different conviction about a particular thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] There are rumors every six months that the church is going to make coffee. Okay. On Reddit, you see those. And if you think about it, the church has already allowed missionaries to call home weekly. Now, that's a huge change because as all the people that were only able to call home twice a year, my

Guest [00:27:04] parents were not even able to call their parents at all because their mission press.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] Yeah.

Guest [00:27:09] Mission person wouldn't allow it.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] So when the church makes a change like that, it has. It makes every former missionary say, why did I have to go, you know, six months to call my parents when, you know, so. And then just caffeine when the church allows Coke and cola beverages. So, I mean, the church is making some of these changes that were core to our identity. So maybe they'll do it. Maybe it'll be because of you, Steven, you're a prophet. Look in the camera and tell them Stephen said so. Okay, what's next?

Steven Pynakker [00:27:41] Well, and then just tied, like, even the idea of like the tithing, making that voluntary too. See, because I think the principle of tithing can be a good thing. Right. Because the idea is that it makes you have a budget and you're going to put something aside, a sacrificial thing that you're putting aside. And you made that decision to do that. And I think that's fundamental, is that you're making that decision. And so you're doing this and you're doing it with a grateful heart. That you're doing it is something. This isn't what you want to do. You're. You're not being forced to do it. God loves a cheerful giver. Right. And so I think that you need to give people the opportunity to make the decision whether they're going to tithe or not and give them that freedom. And don't make it as a bar of an entrance to be able to encounter what. Go and enter into a holy place. Within the context of the restoration, it seems arbitrary. I don't know if you know this, but it wasn't that long ago. I mean, it was just. There was a period of time when it was voluntary or wasn't even really practiced. But. But now it's become like. Like you have to pay admission.

Guest [00:28:54] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:28:54] To go into the temple.

Guest [00:28:55] I think before Lorenzo's. No, it was more voluntary.

Steven Pynakker [00:28:58] It was more voluntary. And even was it Joseph F. Smith that said that once we get the church back in financial shape, that we could actually. Then the goal would be to eventually eliminate the need entirely. Yeah. To have tithing within the church. So even then you could say that. You could argue that within the context of the restoration that you could say that tithing could be a voluntary thing and it was only meant to be a. For a period of time that it was to be practiced in such a way. But now that the church has obviously been blessed by having substantial amounts of money and revenues, that maybe the time has come for them to just say, well, you know what? We think you can be blessed by doing tithing, but that's a choice that you can make. So the concept of tithing is still there. All the good that one could get out of it is there, but it's no longer forcing somebody to do it, thus taking away their free agency to be able to make those informed choices on their own.

Guest [00:29:59] Well, if you, if you were talking to any member today, they would say, well, tithing is voluntarily in our church, you know, like, you don't have to pay tithing. But I think what you're talking about is don't make it a sin not to pay tithing. Right. Because right now it would be considered a sin to not pay tithing. But if it's just something that you give out of your heart, it's not a commandment per se to do it, you know, and so rigid and legalistic.

Steven Pynakker [00:30:29] Yeah, yeah. And it is, you know, because I mean, I come from. There's a lot of churches within the movement I'm in that also advocate tithing. And they'll even say you're stealing from God if you don't tithe. Yeah, well, I don't like that. That's manipulation. Yeah, that's, that's taken away. That people need to make that choice on their own and not do it because they have to or because they're afraid that they're stealing from God. That's just not the God I serve.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] And I don't mean to have a rebuttal to every one of these.

Steven Pynakker [00:30:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] But I just have to.

Steven Pynakker [00:30:58] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] I'm trying to think about the church's perspective and I think that it's a, it's a well established fact in sociology that the more you require of your adherence, the more committed they are to your organization. So the lower demand religions have less devotion of the members. And I think the church would worry, like obviously right now the church could live off the interest of its investments and fund its full budget. So they don't literally don't need the tithing of the members. Now who doesn't want more money? Everybody wants more money. But I wonder if the main reason they wouldn't take your suggestion would be because it would ultimately weaken the membership's commitment to the church because you actually care more about something you invest in.

Steven Pynakker [00:31:41] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, and this is thing. Because I'm an individualist, I'm thinking about the individual's relationship with God and how important it is to enable people to have that personal relationship. Because I think that's fundamental to the Christian walk, is to have your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And if you are stipulating all these rules and regulations and make. And you have to do this, this, this, and this, it just. It takes away so much. I'm just saying, I'm like. When I say advice, I'm saying, like, I'm also looking out for the spiritual welfare of the individuals within the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Oh, like ethics and spirituality?

Steven Pynakker [00:32:18] Well, I just think that those things are important. I think that, you know, and so. Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying, John. And of course, from a business sense, from a. From a bureaucracy sense, from a corporate. Yeah. Obviously making it voluntary could hurt the bottom line and stuff like that. But I'm trying to just, like, approach this as though we're trying to help people on their spiritual journey and ways that we can help them become better Christians, better people. And by giving them more choices and more freedom in Christ to be able to make these decisions on their own, it enables them to actually have a better, I think, relationship with Jesus and with the church and with all these things. Because it's not about necessarily following all these rules and regulations, but it's about just pursuing a relationship that I think is really important. So I'm thinking, like, the spiritual welfare as well when I'm making these suggestions.

Guest 5 [00:33:12] So you're trained to be more like Jesus?

Steven Pynakker [00:33:15] Well, I'm. I'm. I strive. I think everybody should strive to try to be more like Jesus. Right, I agree. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] All right, well, let's hit. Let's hit transparency and wealth, because those are both on your list.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:27] Yeah. You know, so I think it's really important in the society, and actually it's very interesting we're seeing this with the younger generation. The current coming, the upcoming crop of young people is that they. They want authenticity and they want transparency. Right. So I think this would actually be good advice for us to consider, for all churches to consider. You know, look, I been involved in many churches, many organizations where you have the megachurch pastor and then you have his father on the board and a bunch of yes men on the board, and they don't open up the books. You don't know what's really going on. You notice that the pastor is driving these very nice cars, and there's no transparency whatsoever. And I tell people, if you can't look at the books, then you shouldn't give them any money. That's just a general word of advice for any church across the board. If you can't look at the books, then you. There's no transparency. You don't know where your money is going. It's, you know, tithing and giving is kind of an investment that you're making in the kingdom. But you should. You. But. But because it is, you made those contributions, you should have a right to be able to have access to what is what they're doing. And I also think. I honestly think that would be good, because people want transparency. They want authenticity. People. That's one of the most important things with these people looking for charities and philanthropy is that they really think it's important to have an organization that just opens up the books and say, okay, here we are. This is all that we have. And then you make the decision if you want to make it in, you know, sow a seed or make an investment into our enterprise, our ministry of what we're trying to do. So, yeah, you know, I think those kind of things are very, very important. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Okay, so be more financially transparent.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] And then going along with that, the wealth.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:27] Yeah. So one of my biggest criticisms that I have of the Catholic Church is that they have all of this wealth. You know, people like, say, well, we have all this. These priceless treasures and all this beautiful stuff. And I'm like, sell it.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] Feed the poor.

Steven Pynakker [00:35:44] Can feed the poor. I tell it to Catholics all the time. I mean, it's like, strip the altars of their gold and all that. Use a plain table. Let's get back to just more of an authentic faith. Let's not focus on the materialism that the. That all the wealth and all the, you know, all these things in this art. Look, there are plenty of people that will buy these things, and they'll be put on display and taken care of, and people would have access to these things. But so my. My whole thing is, is that, you know, actually, one thing I'll give Rick Warren credit for is he does reverse tithing where he gives away 90% as opposed to. So instead of giving 10%, he gives 90%. So maybe that could be a model that we could all follow, that we, as individuals, we could choose to give 10%, but the churches themselves should basically give 90% of their away for Ministry, but also for feeding the hungry, for providing, you know, maybe education for undereducated people, homelessness, address homelessness within the communities, these kind of things that just imagine the sheer amount of wealth that the Catholic Church has. How, how it would really be transformative in many places. And so maybe the second largest church in the second most wealthiest church in the world could also emulate such a pattern that it could, because again, like somebody was telling me, like, well, we have all this wealth because think about it, we were blessed. It was a bishop, he's a good friend of mine and I, I like you. And I had him on my program, but he's trying to sell me on why it was great that the church had all over $100,000,000,000.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] Right now Ensign Peak has over $150,000,000. $150,000,000 in management cash, stocks, bonds, real estate, and that's not even counting other investments that we don't know about and the core assets of the church. So it's a, certainly a 500 billion dollar church if on, on the way to being a trillion dollar church.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:47] Yeah. And so like they, like where I come from, Florida, they own about 2 or 3% of the property in Florida.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] So the Mormon, the Mormon Church.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:54] It does, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] 2 to 3% Florida.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:57] Yeah, yeah, that is true. So, yeah. So, but this person was trying to tell me, well, think of how we were able to get all the, when, when Corona broke out, we were going to get our missionaries back home right away. And I'm like, yeah, but you could have done that if he had $10 billion. Right, right. You don't need 150 billion or whatever, or whatever, hundreds of billions that you could still have a church that has wealth.

Guest [00:38:22] And missionaries pay too.

Steven Pynakker [00:38:24] Rightly.

Guest [00:38:25] Right. So that's not even a good argument

Steven Pynakker [00:38:27] because I even thought like, yeah, but they.

Guest [00:38:29] 400 or 500, $500 a month.

Steven Pynakker [00:38:32] Right. I think he was just, yeah. And so I just seemed like a, that was his main pitch and I was kind of like, okay, well, all right, but that doesn't quite work for me. Right. Because I, I think that I don't. Look, I, look, we're trying to be restorationists here. We want to emulate the first century church. And I think that when we look at what they were doing early on, it was not about building, you know, wealth and assets and stuff like that. It was about preaching the good news, spreading the gospel, you know, spreading the love of Christ and sharing the gospel message with people. And that was the underlying mission of the church. I don't for any church. I'm talking about mega church pastors. I'm talking about all you people out there with all these big buildings and you're driving your nice cars. I mean, that doesn't seem like anything Jesus would do. So this is just a general criticism across the board of just about almost all churches that they need to reassess what they're doing with all this wealth that they have access to.

Guest 5 [00:39:33] So if, so you would say if you had a billion, $100 billion church, you wouldn't go to Africa where a little village where they didn't have much, and ask them to pay tithing or, or ask them to pay more in fast offerings or tithing than was already asked of them.

Steven Pynakker [00:39:59] Right, yeah. So that's. Right, that's, that's good. Of course. Yeah, I know what you're talking about here.

Guest 5 [00:40:03] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:04] And then that's, that's the thing is like, you know, I mean, you can teach principles of tithing that could be beneficial to people. Right. But I also think that, you know, we have to acknowledge the poverty in this world. And poverty is such a horrible thing. Right. And it's generational, it's integrated as part. You know, we have people in this country that poverty, generation after generation of poverty and poverty and poverty. And I think we have to, because the role of the church is to look out and care for the poor. I think it's much better that we provide for them because they're not able to provide for themselves. And so I think we're. The purpose of giving and tithing in ministry is to help those very people that by making a tithe, it could be very devastating to their situation because they have access to limited amount of food, access to very little medical care. And so I think the priority should be is that let's invest in them and help them and not require them. But then when the time comes that after they've been blessed and maybe they've been been able to step out of poverty, that then they can then bless other people by also giving as well. But I just think the idea that the whole idea of one of the fundamental principles to Christianity is to care for the poor. And if somebody is in poverty and they really feel a conviction to tithe, because we know about the widow's might and all that kind of stuff, right. If somebody does want to make a sacrifice, that's, that's, that's their personal choice that they can make. But I don't like the idea of making poor people feel like they have to give something when they. Maybe they really can't give it away or.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] And again, it's because you literally can't go to the temple. You can't get married in the temple, you can't get your endowments in the Mormon Church unless you pay your tithes and offerings. So it's basically.

Guest 5 [00:42:03] You can't have an eternal family is what they're saying.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:42:06] You can't have an eternal family unless you pay your tithing.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] So the church is. I don't think they think they're doing this. I don't think it's intentional, but they're basically selling salvation. So they're selling salvation.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:17] Well, and I, I mean, that's. That's a theological thing that's going on here because, you know, the importance of, you know, getting into the temple and doing these rights, none of these things are very relevant to me, but within the context of a member. Yeah. I think you have to give some leeway to people and gives some flexibility, saying, you know, if this person wants to proceed, that we should give them, you know, we should accept that they are not able to tithe now, but if they get blessed and we're able to bless these people, the time may come where they could bless others and bless the church as well. And to grant. Not grant access to people. I don't know, it seems kind of. I don't know, I just think that it doesn't seem very Christlike. Right. I think Christ would openly let these people come, you know.

Guest 5 [00:42:58] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:59] And. And engage them and. And have them part. Be part of the whole process. Right. So.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] And this is where the Book of Mormon and the Bible agree, because the Book of Mormon is very anti wealth and anti materialism. You know, King Benjamin's speech. Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:13] It's just.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] What does it say?

Steven Pynakker [00:43:15] Yeah, well, just about. Well, about, like he made a comment about gold. You should give up all your gold and stuff like that. And I, that's actually, I, I told my mom, my grandmother, her mother, I told my mom, I said she would love King Benjamin's speech because she felt the very same way about. Not about accumulating wealth and all these kind of things and about giving. And I said there's a lot of themes within King Benjamin's sermon that would resonate with what I agree with, too. And my grandmother, who was all about. Never was about building these things up, but it was about giving. Just you. You get something, you just give it away. You just give and give and give and bless people. And that's kind of like the more Christ like thing to do. And so they're, they're. The spirit of King Benjamin is something that, you know, you could follow within your, your scriptures, I think. And then of course, you know, what did Jesus say? He said just, you know, if you want to follow me, you know, give up everything, you know, give, give up all your wealth and just come follow me. And some people aren't, don't want to do that.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] He was speaking in parable.

Steven Pynakker [00:44:19] He was speaking in parable. Yeah, well, yeah, but he was also making a going to follow me then you know, you might have to make sacrifices, but again, you're making the choice to make those sacrifices as well. You know, you're making that decision again. And the idea was, is what he's trying to say is that, you know, wealthy wealth and the accumulation of wealth is a temporal thing. It's not an eternal thing. It's not that that's what he's trying to tell us. It's about us as human beings being loving each other, looking out for each other and not be pursuing wealth at the expense of our fellow human beings as well. Because often that's also what happens too.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] All right, well, I think going along with that is you have opening parts of temple to community, almost shelter, rec center. You want to talk about that next?

Steven Pynakker [00:45:07] Yeah. So when you consider that you're building these state of the art facilities and everything like that, if you look at the original temples, they often kind of were like community centers and that they were open to the public. As a matter of fact, they even had dancers is in the Nauvoo temple.

Guest [00:45:21] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:45:21] So it seems to me like by make closing them off totally is kind of a waste of resources because here you have see like in back in the day, you know, in the medieval times, the very center of the community was the cathedral. Right. And that was like the center and the heart of the community. And if you were to emulate that within the contents of the temple, that it's not just a temple for baptisms of the dead, but it's also a temple for the living today and make it a place that's alive with people all the time. In other words, I'm not saying open up the entire temple, I'm saying open up parts of the temple to the public so that. And so that if there's homeless and they need a place to sleep at night, the temple can be a place that they could go to. If there's youth, you could have youth programs and you could make it part because again These are huge buildings, they have all this room and you could devote some of it as a community service. Like this is our holy place, this is very sacred to us. But because we want to be good neighbors, we want to open up part of our temple to the community to serve as a beacon of life, of place of where the children of God can come and interact with each other, but also for places where if people need help or whatever, if they need a place to stay that night that would be open to them, I think it would just be a real blessing to the community and it would then I think be helpful for the images of the church because it would be great pr. But it also I think would have spiritual significance because then it becomes a place that people would look, not just Mormons, but other people would look as a good place, a place that's welcoming to all and a place that, well, you know, they're not just building a building for a building's sake or just to do certain things and keep everybody out. That they're allowing a certain degree of openness to the temples and utilizing them in a way would be helpful. And I have a friend, David hall, who kind of, he tried to build that big city in Vermont. The blood platted out with Joseph's plans and then of course they all freaked out about it. But he even talks about like opening up the temples where you could actually have the, them do the temples service and then, and then you would remove everything that's out of there and then the Baptist could have their services in there as well. So it'd be a multi use, multi use packages. So there are, there are people of the Latter Day Saint tradition that can also see the utility of using temple space more effectively than it is being used today.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] Yeah, I mean if you look at what Russell M. Nelson, the current Mormon prophets legacy is right now it's building a gazillion temples.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:57] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] And they're not just temples, they're super expensive buildings. And I do, I, I, I've always been uncomfortable with the, the, the wealth expended on these temples, even though they're beautiful, but then just kind of the waste of time that goes into like all this proxy work for the dead when there's real living need. Now you don't have Jesus saying listen all my disciples Sermon on the Mount. What you really need to do is go get baptized for dead people and go do temple endowments for dead people and go get sealed over and over and over and over again for dead people. Jesus never said that. You know what did he say? Feed the, you know, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take care of the poor.

Steven Pynakker [00:48:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] So, like, in some sense, it's bad enough, in my opinion, that Mormon temples are kind of a huge waste of time. Although I know it's because I don't believe the theology.

Steven Pynakker [00:48:48] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] But it adds insult to injury for me that they're just so freaking, you know, 50, $100 million buildings when that money might be used in different ways.

Steven Pynakker [00:48:58] Yeah. And. And so I'm trying to create a way in which we can still have the. And the expenditures used in them, but also try to. And recognize the importance of the sacred things that happen within the temple that are very important to people. And I acknowledge that. I don't agree with the theology of the temple and what goes on in there on a theological level. But. But I also think that if you. If you then also in open. See, it always seemed weird to me that you can't go in. I'm a Christian. Why can't I come in there? Right. But if you could at least say, look, we opened the door in a way that we're doing our sacred ceremonies, and they're very important to us. But there's another sacred duty that we have, and that is to love our neighbor and to be Christlike and help the community. And that the temple can be a beacon. Not only a beacon to LDS folk who are there to do their sacred audiences, but also be a beacon of hope to all in the community to know that if somebody's there, they could point to the temples, go to the temple, and they will help you.

Guest [00:50:01] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:01] You know, and then it could be a place that's a giving place and a place that people could look at as a. A place that practices Christian, you know, the Christ like attributes. And it'll be. It'll be viewed as something that could be central to the community as opposed to a place that they're not allowed to go into. It's verboten. And. And then they're just cut the communities cut off from it, especially in areas where it's mixed, you know, I think that sounds beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:50:26] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:26] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] It's a great suggestion. I actually don't have a rebuttal for that one.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:29] Okay, great.

Guest [00:50:30] All right.

Steven Pynakker [00:50:31] Okay. So where do we want to go next?

John Dehlin [00:50:34] All right, so the next one that I have is embracing the cross. And that's for my high school Mormon brain, for my ces trained a Mormon brain. I was trained to think the cross is evil, that it's bad. The cross, you know, the line is, the cross represents the dead Christ, but Mormons believe in the living Christ. So to in any way use the cross is like an insult to Jesus, basically.

Steven Pynakker [00:51:02] Yeah, yeah. The great irony, of course, is that the cross was used in the 19th century church. I.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] The 19th century LDS.

Steven Pynakker [00:51:11] LDS Church, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] Oh, really?

Steven Pynakker [00:51:14] I identified the oldest extent. I identified one of the oldest extent, the oldest extent pieces of art that featured Book of Mormon art. When I had Devin Jensen come on my program and he told me, yeah, we've got these panoramas that were painted in 1871, I was like, dude, that those are the oldest paintings of the Book of Mormon, because Chris Thomas had originally identified the oldest one being 1874, with David Hyrum's painting. And because I had that knowledge, I'm like, dude, the church, I just identified it. So we came on and we talked about, well, what was so interesting was that these were panoramas that were used as proselytizing tools to the Native Americans in Utah. So what it did was it told the story of the Book of Mormon, but also told the story of Jesus in the old world and also Jesus returning, coming to the new world as well. It's actually kind of cool that the paintings are quite stunning. And it has a crucifixion scene in it and it has Jesus nailed to the cross. It looks very Catholic. And it's like. And it's written that Brigham Young had seen this panorama also. So we know that a prophet saw this, didn't have a problem with it, and thought the use of the cross as a proselytizing tool was perfectly legitimate. And the other thing, speaking of bringing Young, we have photos of many of his wives and many of them have. Are wearing crosses. So the idea of the cross in the LDS Church is not a foreign concept. And I think when I say embrace the cross because, see, like we're told in scripture that the cross can be a stumbling block. And I feel, almost feel like the cross is a stumbling block and it should be something that's embraced, right? And you know, like, as Protestants now, I come from an evangelical tradition where some would say, well, we have an empty cross because we talk about the risen Christ. The Catholics have Christ on the cross. And so that's how we differ. So there's a little similar retort that they would make. Now, I don't embrace that because I think that the story of the atonement, resurrection, all the. What Jesus did at the cross is important. So Christ's suffering on the cross can be an acknowledgement A remembrance of what he did for us at the cross. The empty cross can represent that he is a risen, arisen. Excuse me, a risen Christ. And it's. It's an important thing because the cross is radical, because you're literally taking something that. Where God was killed, if you will, or Jesus was killed. And you're making. You're actually making it the symbol of your faith, and that is representative of how Jesus is defeated. Death. Right. So you're taking an instrument of death, and you're making it into an instrument of light, instrument of life. And then it also makes you contemplate, contemplation, to contemplate what Jesus did at the cross. And it's a beautiful symbol. It's a powerful symbol. It's a symbol that was used in the early LDS Church. And I think if you want to be able to create better relations with the rest of the Christian world, I think a great step forward would be embracing the cross. It would be a real important thing you did. But again, it's part of your history. It's part of your heritage. It's already there. It's not something that's foreign to the church. It's. It's already been there. And I think it would be a great. Just a great thing if they really want to have relationship conversations with both groups. And that's one of the things that the Church is trying to do, embrace the cross.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] I love it. Okay. That. That goes against the grain of my Mormon upbringing, but it certainly would unify. And it. I do think it's insulting to say that the crop. The cross represents the dead Christ. That's just. I mean, symbols can mean whatever they want to.

Steven Pynakker [00:54:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] So that is kind of. It's unnecessarily separating themselves from. From the rest of the Christian world, which I think more than ever right now.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] The Church wants to be a part

Steven Pynakker [00:55:02] of broader Christianity, and that's not how we see the cross.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:06] So you're defining.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:07] Our symbol in a way that we don't even recognize. And that's not really cool.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] That's not a good faith interpretation.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:15] Right. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] Yeah. Okay. You. This is a fun one. And I think I know where you're going here. You have make Relief Society autonomous again. That's a fun one.

Guest [00:55:24] I know.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] I know where you're going there, but tell us.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:27] Well, I think that people don't know the.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] His. Mormons generally don't know the history of their own Relief Society.

Guest [00:55:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] So you may have to. Greg Prince talked about this, but.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] You may have to fill.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:36] Well, I mean, basically that.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] I mean, evangelicals and our. Our Christian viewers, there's no Mormonism better than us, so they know what you're about to say. It's Mormons that don't know.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:46] I really don't know how many evangelicals know this. Maybe the ones that watch your program do. They're probably pretty hardcore in. Deep in the weeds in a lot of this stuff. But basically, it appears, and D. Michael Quinn makes it pretty clear that the idea of the Relief Society was to kind of create a. An auxiliary, but also a separate organization that give full autonomy to the women to run the organization. And, and he patterns it after the first presidency. And they were the ones that selected their leaders. They acted as though they were 70s in the way they did business. They had their own publications, they had their own editorials. You'd be very surprised that there are some publications that they put out even at the beginning of the 20th century. And I've read something in the 1930s, Relief Society publication they put out that would not be printed today. Somebody even pointed it out. So they were actually given freedom of, like to agree, freedom of press. So they could even be kind of critical at times, or they could give their own opinions on things. And so there was an idea that the Relief Society was for the women. It was run by the women. They had a great degree of autonomy. It was patterned after the first presidency. D. Michael Quinn likes to say that they actually had the priesthood in the context of the Relief Society was there. So I just think that when we look at where we're at now in the LDS Church with regards to women, it's a very difficult situation. But I think that by making the Relief Society more autonomous, I think it would solve a lot of the issues that are going on right now because there's more freedom and you feel like your voice is being heard and that can be. And that all would feel that they're equal participants in what's going on in the church and in particular with what's going on within their organization. And I think that it would be just a good step because again, this is all stuff that's already part of your heritage. Like, it's all there that you can follow these patterns and it can also lead to reforms within your church that would put things in a positive direction. And it would. But again, I'm not making a whole lot of recommendations here that the Church hasn't already done in its past. It's part of its history. It's part of your. What is in your background. So I'm just trying to make comments and advice on things that you've already done it once before, it can be brought back and done again. And I think that when you allow more autonomy, you allow more free agency, you allow more liberty in Christ, you have more creativity, you have more. There's more vitality to an organization, and then you would have a. I think it would just be good for everybody. I think everybody benefits from more autonomy and more freedom and less control. I think that, again, that just makes sense to me. I mean, I think Mormonism, in some of its doctrines, actually, it makes sense within the context of that as well.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] And, Jen, did you know that the Relief Society was its own autonomous, independent organization that had its own publications, its own. That managed its own budget, had its own voice? And this is in the 40s, you know, 30s, 40s and 50s. Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:58:50] Yeah. No, I did not know that.

Steven Pynakker [00:58:53] So I.

Guest [00:58:55] Let's go back.

Guest 5 [00:58:55] I think that that would be a good idea to go back to those roots.

Guest [00:59:00] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:59:01] And I think that would actually not be hard to do, and I think it would be a good step for the LDS Church. So I would second Stephen's motion on that.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:13] Okay, very good.

Guest [00:59:14] Awesome.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:15] Making progress here.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] All right. Yeah, I've got no rebuttals there. I think that would only help the church, honestly, unless they started wanting to talk about Heavenly Mother, and then that'd be a problem because the church is not liking that these days.

Guest 5 [00:59:30] You know that once in Release Society on Mother's Day, it was. I gave the prayer and I said something about heavenly. I said something to Heavenly Mother in my prayer, and I was never asked to give the prayer again in really society in that ward.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] How long. How long was that?

Guest 5 [00:59:51] That was, let's see, like, my oldest was just like maybe two. So 23 years ago,

John Dehlin [01:00:04] you were a rebel in embryo.

Guest 5 [01:00:08] Yeah. And it wasn't. It wasn't even speaking right to her. I just, like, I think I was thanking Heavenly Father for her. And I. Yeah, I was put. I've silenced very fast after that.

Steven Pynakker [01:00:24] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] Keep Mormonism weird, Steven Pineaker would say. Yeah, I'm sorry that happened, Jen. Okay, so, okay, the next one we've talked about a bit, but we'll talk about it again. And I think it. I think the church has different strains of wanting to emphasize grace and wanting to emphasize obedience and works. But what's. What's your next one?

Steven Pynakker [01:00:48] Yeah, so, yeah, one of the things I, like, I said fully embrace the cross, but also fully embrace grace because I Think that especially within the Protestant context of Christianity is the idea of, you know, it's not about what you do and it's not about you earning your salvation, it's about you embrace. Embracing what Jesus Christ did for you at the cross. Accept him as your savior. Know there's a free gift of salvation that's offered to you. There's nothing that you did or that you could merit this. It was something that he's freely given to you. And so this is like so important because it different. This form of Christianity that's grace based separates us from all the other religions in the world because basically every other religion in the world in one sense requires of you to do certain things right. It's all works based, it's all. Or like in Hinduism, it's based on everything that you've done in past lives. It's all on you. And what Jesus did at the cross is so radical that it said, no, it's all on me. And so I think that's really like the freeing aspect of grace based Christianity is that it's an openness to say that there's really nothing that you can do. It's more about what I can do for you and I'm willingly sacrificing myself and just embrace the gift that I'm offering you. And like I said earlier, it's not the work that we do, it's the work that he does within us. And that's what grace is all about. So that's just kind of a tiny little thing there. But I think that again, if the church wants to, Christianity is different because of that. That's what makes it so unique. And I think it'd be good for everyone to really start focusing on grace now. Jackson Washburn, you know he's going to, he's the Harvard Divinity School and I've been talking to him. He's trying to integr grace back in, trying to take ideas of the Protestant understanding of grace and integrate it into Mormonism. So I'm hoping that this is something that could continue and we can have this again. This is about having a conversation about a discussion. So this, I'm just making a recommendation to look at grace as something that's really important, it's radical and it differentiates us from the rest of the world with the other religions. And I think you should contemplate what Jesus did for his cross, for us at the cross, and that was a free gift, and then understand that concept I think is important. And I just want to invite people who are the thinkers within the philosophers and theologians of the LDS Church to really explore this concept and this idea and see how it can maybe help contribute to your theological underpinnings as well.

Guest [01:03:31] Have you read the talk by Brad Wilcox, His Grace is Sufficient? Have you heard about that?

Steven Pynakker [01:03:40] You know what? I think I heard a little bit about it. Tell me, refresh me on that.

Guest [01:03:45] So Brad Wilcox is a talk that he's most famous for given at byu. It's titled His Grace is Sufficient. And he basically starts introducing that Protestant concept of grace into Mormonism. But it's hard because he wants to say, yeah, we can't do anything to save ourselves because Jesus did everything. There's nothing we can do, but we still have to go to the temple, pay tithing.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:16] All right,

Guest [01:04:18] so it's pretty confusing.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:20] Yeah, it's very confusing. And again, you're adding a work there that I don't know is necessary. Again, it has to be participatory. Where we're having, we're doing this together. Where I'm doing these works out of my love and gratitude for what he did for me at the cross. It's not because I'm trying to earn my way or trying to be on his good side to earn favor. I do these works because I am grateful for what he did for me at the cross. If it becomes I do these works because I have to, then you just become another works based religion that all other religions are like. And then it defeats the whole purpose of what you Jesus did at the cross. It's like, what's the point? If it's things that I could do to have to do, then why did he even have to do what he did at the cross? I mean that's just to me and

Guest [01:05:06] I think to fully embrace grace, the Mormon Church will have to make the law tithing to be optional. They would have to make the Word of Wisdom to be optional. So then there's no, you know, like rigorous things that you would have to follow in order to gain salvations in. Like everything is optional, but you choose to do. You choose what to do to show your love for Christ or God.

Steven Pynakker [01:05:37] Yeah, I think again we're just, we're having dialogue and conversation about what does Protestant Christianity, what can it bring to the table, what can the idea of grace bring to the table? And then how can you take the ideas of Mormonism that make it unique and integrate it within a way where it's more about exercising your free will, your free agency and it's part of the process where you can still use the guide stones within the restoration to help you in this process that you're going through. But it's not about having to do it. It's about you wanting to do it.

Guest 5 [01:06:09] Yeah, Yeah. I think if. I think if the LDS Church fully embraced grace, it couldn't have the degrees of kingdom, kingdoms, Degrees of glory. Degrees of glory, yes. Thank you. In the celestial kingdom, I think they would have to reformat that whole concept because you have to do certain things to be in these degrees of the celestial kingdom, the highest kingdom. So grace, if it's sufficient to be with God, then there would be no degrees.

Steven Pynakker [01:06:42] Yeah. And see, that, that's, that's the, that's the church's problem. That's the issues that the theology of Mormonism brings to the table that you have to figure. That's not my problem. I'm just, I'm giving, like, hey, this is where grace can be beneficial. But now you got to take all this into account about your theology of the afterlife and what happens with exaltation and all that kind of stuff as well, because I don't believe in those things. But. But, yeah, you're just going to have to be creative, Jackson Washburn, and see what you can do.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] I think it's so funny that in your worldview, Jackson Washburn is going to be the one who's determining Mormon theology, the Mormon theology of the future. Like, that's almost bizarro world Mormonism.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:20] I just. Well, you know, I think there's a lot of people that find Jackson to be an interesting person, and I think he brings ideas.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] I love Jackson.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:27] So I just think people like Jackson Washburn need to be given a lot of freedom to kind of play with these concepts and these ideas and see where it goes, because you just never know what's going to come out of that.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] Jackson Washburn, it's up to you to save Mormonism. You can do it. I love it. Yeah. And I, I actually, I believe, Jen, to your point, this exclusivity, Mormonism doesn't play well in 2022. And so the degrees of. It'd be hard to walk back the three degrees of glory. But I don't think that's doing the Mormon Church any favors. And I, I do agree. There's just so many people that are just like, life is hard enough. Like, so many people, adults and teens are just like, I'm not sure I want to live anymore anymore. So all this pressure, like, all the Mormon rules and all the perfectionism, it's. It's you know, along with, like, CES letter stuff and LGBT stuff. This perfectionism stuff has taken a lot of people out of the church. Even it just. They don't. Yeah, it's just people are getting exhausted and feeling terrible about themselves, and they're like, why do I want to be a part of a church that's always making me feel super guilty and shame.

Steven Pynakker [01:08:36] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a similar thing you have with Catholicism, where they have a lot of shame, a lot of scrupulosity. They were the ones that came up with that term, and you'd find quite a bit of scrupulosity here within Mormonism as well. And so, yeah, I do think that, you know, when you put it all on the individual, that there for some people, that can make life for them a living hell. So my heart goes out to people who are in workspace religions, whether it's Catholicism or whether it is, you know, some branches of the restoration. I. I really feel like it. You're putting a lot on people. I love you guys. I love. I love the church. I love the members of the church. And I'm just saying this in love. I'm just. Honestly, I'm just trying to say, like, you know, I think that if you can make it more about what he did at the cross and less about what I'm doing, then you can put a lot of pressure, performance. Take away a lot of performance professure on people, and it just kind of. They can rest in the peace. Rest in the peace of Christ and be. Just to know that they're one of his children. And then that can also take away a lot of the anxiety and the stress and the pressure that one would have in their life and religion and stuff should provide solace. It shouldn't be there to put high demands on us, because then it just becomes one more thing in this world that another burden that we have to carry and life is hard enough as it is.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Yeah, I love it. All right, well, I can't argue with that recommendation. The last. You have a final one about the hymn name change. Is this your last one?

Steven Pynakker [01:10:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:10:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] What's the recommendation?

Steven Pynakker [01:10:19] I'll tell you what. I'll go to other Christians, and I'd say I talk to them about Mormonism and I say, there's one thing I want to tell you about the church is that they have this hymn called Praise to the Man. And I'll tell you, that's like fingernails on a chalkboard for a lot of these people. Most Christians just find that so, like, idolatrous. And what I find so interesting is that one of the very first things that Joseph Smith III did when he became the prophet of the RLDS church is he made a point to change the name of the song to Praise to the Praise to the Lord. And this is Joseph's own son that did this because he recognized the issues of singing this song. Because again,

Guest [01:11:12] I.

Steven Pynakker [01:11:13] It's actually kind of. I played the song once for my mom, and she said it's actually got. Kind of got a catchy tune. You know, it's pretty good. So it's a. It's. It's. It's a. It's a nice sounding song. But the idea of singing praise to a man is such a foreign concept within Christianity, and it does kind of feel idolatrous. And I know that the people who are singing the song don't. Aren't openly practicing idolatry, but I just think that as an outsider, most Christians hear just the name of that song and they're just like, no, that's where I draw the line, you know, so I'm just giving, you know, just. Just how, as an outsider, how we see things. I bring that up to Christian, Catholics, Protestants who. And they just like, whoa. No, that's, like, defeats the whole point. Just the idea of having a song in which you're praising a man just takes away. It's, It's. Yeah, I just. It just, just not. It's not a very Christian sounding song. And so. But if you had Praise to the Lord, well, then I'll sing that song with you.

John Dehlin [01:12:13] How about Follow the Prophet? Follow the Prophet. Follow the Prophet. Follow.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:18] No, it's a nice. It's got a catchy tune.

John Dehlin [01:12:21] Yeah. All right, well, that's your list. Any final. I mean, any final things, you know, to church headquarters. Any final things you want to say to them, you look. Look them in the camera.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:35] And first of all, I don't want to look. This was just kind of us having like a little fun experiment, thought experiment and things and observations that I've made. I. I'm not so presumptuous to say that I'm. I have all the answers or anything like that. We're having a little fun here. But, but as an outsider, I'm just saying, like, well, if I were to try to make Mormonism be able to kind of be a little bit more compatible with, you know, conventional Christianity and also open up avenues of dialogue, but things that also might be helpful to the members, the idea, see to Me, grace and the cross are important things. So if we could bring more of that into it, it also will be very beneficial to the members. So I do this in love. I'm speaking from my heart. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm just talking as an outsider, like things. I think what our tradition, what our worldview brings to the table could perhaps inform you guys and help you guys in this conversation, this dialogue that we're having. And maybe you take two or three of these points and maybe run with it, or you ignore them all and that's fine. I just want to say I love you all and I hope you don't take anything out of this that I'm being facetious or I'm criticizing the church. I genuinely just want of maybe just a few observations that I've made throughout the years about the church. And I think this was kind of fun. I think. I think everybody know that this. I have a good spirit about this. Right?

John Dehlin [01:13:52] We all know you're right, Stephen.

Guest 5 [01:13:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] You got the Jen thumbs up. Got the Gerardo thumbs up. Got the John thumbs up. Okay, that's. That's unanimity. Yeah, we have unanimity.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:03] Yeah, that. That should really work at the church office building. I got three thumbs up.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] That's all they need. All right, well, thank you, Stephen. That concludes part four of our two hour Epic Today epic series of interviews with Steven Pinecre. And there's still more. So what we have left, come right back for part five where Stephen tells us how the Mormon church saved his life. And he discloses some very personal and intimate things about his own life. But he also talks about about how he lost his faith in God and Jesus became self identified atheist agnostic and how it was only like a couple years ago, right before COVID started, that, that Stephen regained his faith in Jesus and in God. And Mormon stories played a role in bringing you to Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:57] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] Is that right?

Steven Pynakker [01:14:58] That's right. Stay tuned. It's pretty wild. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] So come right back and we'll hear part five with Stephen Pineaker, kind of his. His closing story. Thanks, Stephen.

Steven Pynakker [01:15:10] It's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] Thanks, Gerardo. Thanks, Jen.

Guest [01:15:13] No problem.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] All right, we'll see you guys for part five in just one second.

Steven's Personal Faith Journey and Sexuality

Part 5 of 5 · Ep. 1574

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 24, 2022 and we are at the final tail end of a two day epic five part Mormon story series with Stephen Pinecker, host of Mormon Book Reviews podcast and YouTube channel, knows more about Mormonism than 99.9% of Mormons and is a good hearted guy and just a good friend. Dear friend. So we're thrilled with the first four episodes we've had. If you haven't checked them out, pause. Go back to part one where we talk about Stephen's childhood and adolescence and young adulthood growing up as a charismatic Christian in Chicagoland area and what got him interested in Mormonism. And that was part one. It was really powerful and interesting. Part two was an outsider's view of how the Book of Mormon was created. Stephen weighs in on that. It's like three hours. It was really, really good. Part three was Stephen talking about all the things that he loves about Mormonism and the Book of Mormon from an evangelical, progressive, maybe I would say libertarian Christian perspective. That was part three. Part four. He spends a good hour and 15 minutes consulting, offering free consulting advice to the Mormon church on how to maybe be more successful but probably definitely be more Christlike, but with humility. And then part five, we're finishing up his story. So last we left your story, Stephen, you were multi decades into being a believing Christian but also following Mormonism. And what you alluded to is that at some point you lost your faith in God and Jesus and you wanted to wait until this final episode to talk about how and why you lost your faith. Got to the point where you went from believing charismatic Christian to a self identified atheist and agnostic and other things in your life that may have been wound up in that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] And then fun part will be how Mormon stories helped rekindle your belief in God and Jesus. And then we'll talk about your beliefs and your ministry today. How does that sound?

Steven Pynakker [00:02:15] Okay. Yeah, Sounds good. Yeah. This is, this is the part where it gets personal. And I don't like to talk about my personal life that much, but I'm, I felt too late now. Yep, I'm here. You were taping.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] I'm joking. And we've got Gerardo with us in studio. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:28] Hey, John. Hey, Steven.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Thanks for taking off work. You're a full time employee somewhere else, so you've taken off like three days this week, so. Thank you. Yeah. And we've got Jen Camp who adds wit and brilliance and heart and soul.

Guest 6 [00:02:42] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Thanks. Gen camp.

Guest 6 [00:02:44] Thank you. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] All right, Stephen, where do we pick off? Where do we pick up?

Steven Pynakker [00:02:49] I mean, I guess do we want to start from the very beginning or like.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] Yeah, yeah. If you want to go back to whatever things you didn't want, you wanted to say for this episode, let's start.

Steven Pynakker [00:02:58] Okay. And then kind of how it came, like. So I think, you know, so I deliberately held back part of my personal story because I don't really like to talk about myself. And I've had a very difficult life in many ways. Now I recognize that I have many privileges in my life that are not afforded to other people, but we all kind of have our own cross the bear. And this is kind of mine in one sense is that from a very early age, as I had mentioned in the very first episode, people felt that I had a calling on my life and that I was. That I was kind of touched by the Lord and that I was going to have some maybe like prophetic ministry or minute. You know, a lot of people were thinking that and that I was maybe going to be a prophet or whatever like that. And. And so deeply involved in this deeply spiritual. I thought about Jesus all the time. I was contemplated about, you know, what we can do to save souls and all this kind of stuff. And then probably around the age. Well, probably around second grade, so I was a young boy, I recognized that I was attracted to other boys. Right now I didn't even know what homosexuality was, but I just knew that I liked boys. It was kind of intrinsic, right. I was attracted. I wasn't. I mean, I. So I. There was an older boy that I had a crush on. And so I recognized that I. There was something different about me that, that was different than other people because I was supposed to like girls and I didn't. So I didn't understand what this whole thing was. But then as I'm getting a little bit older and it didn't take much long to find out what that being gay was, that it was a sin and it was an abomination. And so we have these parallel tracks of. On one hand, in know I am this super Christian called of God. But then I also have this other parallel where I have I'm same sex attraction or whatever. You know, we talk, we've talked about that terminology, Geraldo, that I suffered with, right. As I would have seen at the time that this is this great horrible sin that was in my life. And every. This is right around the time of aids. This is. I was around the same age as Ryan White, who was the kid that had AIDS in Kokomo, Indiana, not too far from where I lived. And there was this big controversy about him going to school. And I didn't really understand aids. I didn't know, like, does he have AIDS because he's gay? If you're gay, does that mean you get aids? Right. I didn't really understand a lot of things, so I was kind of afraid. So that, and then on top of that, all the horrible things that Christians say about gay people, especially during this period of time, it's pretty horrendous. So I, I just had a very low view of myself because I recognized that I, I had feelings that God condemned and that would, that that's pure evil. And you know, I mean, that's just, it was a very difficult thing to have these realizations. And then living in the country, like, I like to play soldier army and realize, oh, oh, they won't let you in the military, you know, those kind of things. And then part of the reason why I chose to pursue politics as opposed to like a ministry was because, because I'm gay, I couldn't be a minister. I couldn't serve God. So maybe I can serve God in the political realm and, and do it that way. So I just had this view of myself that I was not worthy to serve God. I couldn't go into a ministry that I'm this horrible human being and I'm a monster. And I thought, I just hoped and I tried, prayed to God that he'd take it away. Like my little brother that was like 10 years older than me and I thought, well, maybe when I get his age and he likes girls, maybe I'll like girls. By the time I was his age, I just, I didn't know anything. Right. So, so that's part of my story that I haven't, I really don't tell anybody. Um, I'm kind of reentering into the world.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:13] Re.

Steven Pynakker [00:07:14] I've been kind of was in a dark night, dark place for a very long time. And so that, that's just kind of the beginning of the story right now. Is there anything you want to ask me as we're continuing right now? Because I wanted to. Well, it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] Did you come out to your parents as a teen or anyone?

Steven Pynakker [00:07:31] Oh, so that was years later. It was years later. So no. You didn't? No, no, I was, I was like growing up in high school, so like, I was like the biggest homophobe. I was a self hating self Loathing gay person. Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] How would that manifest by homophobia, Making

Steven Pynakker [00:07:48] jokes and saying cruel things about them. I actually never ever attacked a gay person or, or, or physically or. No, no, I never, I don't think I ever. Verbally or physically. No, I definitely would never hurt anyone physically, but I never verbally attacked a gay person even. You know, I never did that. But I would talk about them in general with my friends, make fun of them, that kind of stuff, make jokes and, and stuff. So I was pretty very virulent in my homophobia.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] So that idea that some of the biggest hobo homophobics are probably.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:21] Oh, yeah, no doubt.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] You think that's.

Steven Pynakker [00:08:23] There's 90% of the time they probably struggle with that, that issue. Yeah, I do believe that very firmly because it definitely manifests itself in that way. Before I get. I want to go back a little bit just, just to give you one sense of how I thought about myself as a child. So in fourth grade, I suffered a burst appendix and I almost died. It was a very serious thing. And by now I know I'm gay. I know this is a horrible, hideous thing. And I'm writhing in pain. I'm on the death's door practically. And this, I'm this young kid who's just like, it's a very serious condition that I'm. That I'm having. And the biggest concern I had before they put me under was I was afraid that if they cut me open, they would find out. I imagined that when they cut me open they were going to find these. I would be full of maggots, that, that this is like this horrible maggots, because that's what homosexuality would have represented. Something very ugly, very dark, very dir. So I actually was worried as a young boy that when they cut me open, they're going to find out. Imagine having that as a kid, thinking that. And so this is the kind of stuff I had to deal with, you know, so I had to hide this attraction. I couldn't tell anybody about it. Everybody I knew said it was a sin and how much they hated gay people. And I had people, you know, I had family members who say, you know, they should kill gays and that kind of stuff. You know, there's some pretty brutal things that were said about gay people by friends, by family. So I had nobody to talk to, nobody to turn to. So everything was internalized. I was truly alone because I couldn't be myself to anybody. And so I could never express my feelings. I could never just be part of, be a human Being, you know, so I had to. So I was very driven to succeed in other areas, you know, whether it be sports or politics, which I was pretty successful at, especially at a young age. I did quite a bit, as accomplished quite a bit as a young person. And you know, of course, when I'd get into arguments with Democrats, I'd always say, well, you're the party of gays, you know. You know, and of course, I was in a blue collar area, so many of the Democrats, who are probably all now Trump people, I would use that as a trump card against them, if you will. Well, you're the party of gays. You support gays and flag burning. And of course, these are union guys and, and they like their guns and they like their flag and they don't like gay people. Right. So. And they were Democrats, so I would use that. That would be like attack. I had no, I had no problem using that kind of phraseology in the political realm either, you know, so I was definitely anti gay in even my political world as well. So.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] Yeah, this is so much self loathing.

Steven Pynakker [00:11:24] Oh, boy. A ton of it.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] A ton of it.

Steven Pynakker [00:11:27] Yeah, absolutely. So, so this is one of the reasons why I asked Geraldo to be one of the co hosts, because, you know, you understood, you kind of, you understand what I was going through. You know, you've been through this little hell. That's not a little. It's a hell. It's a hellish place to be. And so I thought, okay, Geraldo's here. This will be good. John, you have experiences in this area, so I thought this is a good place to have that conversation. So I just want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to just tell another part of my story. But I also think that my sexuality is a gift because I think part of the reason I'm able to do what I'm able to do is because I know people. We live in a culture war. We have all these culture wars going on. Well, I've had a culture war inside of me since I was a young child. So I'm like, everything that's going on now, it's like, well, welcome to my world. This is the world I grew up in because I hated myself.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:24] Yeah, right.

Steven Pynakker [00:12:25] And so that taught me some valuable lessons. And so I think it really helps contribute to me being able to love people in a way and talk to all people from all persuasions in a way that very few people can without getting upset, without getting angry and argumentative. I can just have kind, calm conversations with people that I fundamentally disagree with because I just remind my. Everybody that we're all image bearers, and the Lord's been doing a work in my life. So I look at part of this story, all this background, what it was leading up to is that I had to address my sexuality because it plays a pivotal role, I think, in this whole endeavor as well, because it helped me become the person that's able to do this kind of thing. And one of the things, I think

John Dehlin [00:13:10] that I see it as sacred. Like before, sacred meant something different to me in the Mormon Church. But you being willing to share your story in such intimate ways with me and us and with our audience. Yeah, I view that as sacred. So thank you.

Steven Pynakker [00:13:26] Yeah, thank you, John. Thank you for having me. And I know I. I hope. I think most people that have been watching my channel are. Are going to be appreciative of me doing this. You know, I. I just feel like even if you don't agree. Agree with me being gay, which is kind of funny, right? It's still part of who I am, and I. And it plays an important part, but this is, you know, so I'm in politics. I have a question.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:54] What did you learn or what were the messages given to you about what should gay people do with their attractions?

Steven Pynakker [00:14:02] Should they all get the demons cast

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:04] out of praying it away? Was it a demon? Was it something they were born with or something they chose or. And how those ideas evolved eventually through your. From your childhood to your youth? Because at some point, you probably realize, oh, it's definitely not a choice within charismatic Christianity.

Steven Pynakker [00:14:26] Right?

John Dehlin [00:14:26] So you, You. You said demons. Do you want to start there?

Steven Pynakker [00:14:28] Well, that would be one explanation that these are demons that need to be cast out of you. And we hear stories of this all the time where they tried to cast out demons of, you know, LGBTQ people in. I mean, even here in America, you hear stories like that. So that's. That's one strain. The other strain is that you chose it. And the other, that God would never make somebody like you, that you're. This. This is. This is on you. God made you. He made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steven. Well, my name's Steven, by the way, but so he did make me. I don't know what that. But. But that. That whole thing, you know, was. It was very. But also then, too, is that, you know, within a lot of people equated homosexuality with pedophilia as well. So all the hatred that pedophiles, you know, people have towards pedophiles today, that Was the same kind of hatred that a lot of Christians and regular folk had towards gay people, too, was that. That they looked at you as a child molester? Right. So you keep your children away from. I mean, I had a sister that wouldn't let me be alone with one of my nieces. You know, those kind of things when I came out. So, yeah, it's, it's very weird stuff. I even had, like, a fundamentalist Bible.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:40] But if we're following a timeline, right from your childhood, you're. You're hearing there are demons. But at some point you probably realized, well, this casting out of demons is not working, right?

Steven Pynakker [00:15:54] So I wouldn't have. I would have never dared to even admit that I was gay, to tell people that I would have demons cast out of me. But I did think for a while that it was demonic.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:02] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:02] When I was young, like, like, probably like fifth, sixth grade, that I thought maybe this was like an evil spirit that entered into me.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] But you were too afraid to ask to have the demon cast out.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:11] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Because you'd have to admit you were gay.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] To ask for the demon to be cast.

Steven Pynakker [00:16:15] Right. And I would go to, like, places where you could come up with prayer, and I would say, okay, what. What do you, what do you need prayer for? And the closest thing I could say about it was, well, pornography. Can you pray about that? Hoping that maybe that would cover that area, and then it would be cast out of me, and then I could be, you know, heterosexual, right? So that's kind of how I saw it. But I couldn't. I wouldn't even dare mention to anybody that I was gay. I mean, it was horrible that what would have happened to me at a young age because I went to Christian schools. I would have been thrown out of those schools. I would have not had any friends, would have been totally ostracized. And so, I mean, I, I, There was nothing, there was nothing in that world that I. Any tools that I had to. To deal with this other than you can go to reparative therapy. I remember seeing brochures for Exodus International everywhere, you know, that it just, it was like, you can change. You can do this. It's. You know, we didn't get close to that, Those ideas. No. Well, because for a while there, I thought it was because I was evil, right? But then. And this would have been for a long time, but then I did recognize that there. There is, like, this thing where you're like, you know, I didn't choose this, right? I mean, this is who I am. I know who and what I'm attracted to. So this. This is intrinsic to me. I recognize that, you know, and straight

John Dehlin [00:17:39] people don't choose to be straight. They just are straight.

Steven Pynakker [00:17:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember I. I really never had any connection to gay people. I had nothing but contempt for them. I didn't like them, and of course, I didn't like myself as a result set. But I do remember a moment in the late 80s and I was watching, I think, Nightline, and they were doing the AIDS quilt on the. Where the Washington Monument is, right? They had the whole AIDS quilt laid out there. And I remember just being struck by it, and I started weeping. And I remember walking up to the television, put my hand on the television. You know, it was the first time that I felt something like the humanity of those people as well. And it was. It was a recognition. This is a great, horrible thing that's happening. And so my heart melted for. For them. So it kind of. I just remember it was so unexpected because I was all hate. I hate them. They're bad. I'm bad. But I'm. I mean, but I had that moment where my. I had something melt, like. Like I felt something. Like something came over me and I went and just laid my hands on my TV just to kind of be in solidarity and just, you know, so it was. There was this acknowledgment in myself that this is who I am. So I probably was like, maybe 14, 15 when that happened. You know, change of heart. Well, I think that it was the first time that I felt any connection to other gay people. Right. I felt that connection to them. Whereas before, I just wanted to stay as far. I mean, for me, I would stay away as far as away from gay people as I possibly could because I had a feeling they might be able to figure out that I was gay. So I didn't want to even be near them. That's how. How bothered I was by gay people. I didn't want to even get close to them. But then I felt that I felt something when I watched that television program and kind of gave me, like, an opening there. That. That made me more aware that. That they're not all evil. You know, I thought of myself as being really bad, but at least I'm not having sex. Right? That's part of where a homophobe would be. Well, you. You know, maybe you have these feelings, but at least I'm not having sex. You know, you could pass judgment on that way on them as well. That way, too. So I don't know, that was just a real powerful moment in my life. But one of the things I recognize, I come from a family of five and I had three older brothers and sisters. And then there was a 10 year gap, as we'd mentioned before, and then there I had a younger sister. Now when they, they came from, they came up in the 70s and early 80s. By the time they all got married, by the time they were like 19, 20 years old, they all got married young, right? Just like you did. But that was. That in that generation was like the last generation where that was still normal, like even in America where you got married young. And so they all got married young. And I had this recognition probably in high school where I thought, okay, I can, I can keep this under wraps until my younger sister gets married. Because then it's like, what, why aren't you, why aren't you married? You know, So I just remembered like once my sister got engaged, it's like there was, now there's a countdown. And I just remember like, okay, this is kind of like where at some point I'm going to have to come out because it's going to be obvious that all my other siblings are married. I'm not. I felt like I could get away with it as long as she was not married because, well, she's single too, and that's fine. But then once she got me, I remember even being at the wedding thinking, well, this is, this is it. Like, people are, at some point I'm going to have to deal with this and tell people, you know, that at

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:17] what point did you realize that it was not going to change? So it was not a. You had already at one point where you realize it's not going to change. It's not, it's not a choice. At what point did you realize it's not going to change?

Steven Pynakker [00:21:29] Because I think what it was is that I remember as a kid thinking, well, maybe when I'm my brother's age, like he would have been a teenager at the time. Maybe by the time I'm his age, I'll be like him and I like girls. And I remember when I was in high school and I was like, that didn't happen. And so that was a realization that this is who I am, this is part of me and I'm not changing, I can't change it. I, I see that as a little

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:58] bit of an advantage, right? Because a lot of us got a message or like, you can change. And a lot of evangelical Christians would have follow the Exodus International path and conversion therapy and be indoctrinated into the idea that the reason they're gay is because, you know, they became gay by experiences during their, during their life while growing up. And, and, and that's something that can be changed through therapy, through a lot of prayer. But it seems like you figured it out that it was not going to change pretty, pretty early on.

Steven Pynakker [00:22:37] Yeah, well, I'm a very inquisitive person. I read everything. Like when I. Like, you know how much I plunge myself into Mormonism. Well, I've plunged myself into various subjects that I find. If I find a sub. Well, of course, I was very interested in sexuality from a very young age. So whatever I could get my hands on, I would read surreptitiously. We didn't have Internet, so libraries. Wherever I could read about sexuality, I would try to read as much as I could. I also, of course, read the clobber verses in the Bible. Right. And I knew what they said and I really hated those verses because they condemned. They. They were condemning me. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:14] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:23:15] But I remember, just because I was so inquisitive, I remember reading that there's, that there's, there's science. There's some science here. There's also psychology, that there's other people who are saying things that I could think, okay, maybe there is something to what they're saying. So I recognize that there might be some truth to that. But the problem is they weren't Christians, so I had to kind of recognize that as well. But I knew that there was another way of viewing sexuality that was different from the scripture. So I kind of knew that it wouldn't work. I never actually seriously thought about going to conversion therapy, but I think if I had told my family when I was younger, they probably would have certainly. Probably considered doing something like that. Certainly.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Yeah. And you kind of dodged a bullet, obviously, because I, you know, I was doing my Ph.D. and you know, going right at Evergreen and reparative therapy. When Alan Chambers of Access International comes out. This is the head of Exodus International, which is the Evergreen equivalent for evangelical Christians ex gay reparative therapy kind of organization. And the leader of it admits we never really fixed anybody.

Steven Pynakker [00:24:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] After decades of all that money and time, they're like, just kidding. It never worked for anyone.

Steven Pynakker [00:24:31] No, it didn't. Absolutely. And this is the thing too is I. We live in a. So we've had two properties, one in Florida for decades and in one of our place in Chicago. Well, our place in Florida is in a Christian community and they host conferences there. And I. One, one spring I took some time off and decided I'm going to stay at our place and take a job at the, at the center. Just doing some odd jobs, working in the kitchen and also working in the mail room there. And so while I was there doing work, Exodus International was having a conference there and I would have to go do the mail round. So I would walk into different conference rooms that might be connected to an office and I would see all these gay men and I just felt so bad for them. And on part of me was like, I gotta be careful because I'm. I don't want them to recognize that I'm gay. But I actually pitied them. I really felt like really bad for them. And I thought I just. So even then, even though I was hardcore Christian believer, but also recognized that I was gay, I felt bad for them because I just didn't think. It just seemed so pitiful. I just saw them, I just. They all seem so very, very pitiful. And so I recognize even then I could see it in their eyes, actually. I, and I know that when I would walk in the rooms, I could tell some were also checking me out, looking at me. I could sense that they're probably dealing with that while they're doing the conference. So it's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] All right. Yep. So where did it, where did it go from there?

Steven Pynakker [00:26:04] So I took a job. I was involved in politics for a very long time. I mean like in my high school years through my early 20s and one of the. I had a job opportunity where I was going to take a job with, doing, become the department head of the weights and measures department, one of those cities. So I moved into the city and I took the job and it was kind of a political appointment, but basically I, Wherever you'd see scales or gas pumps, you'd have the sticker on there and then my name would be on that sticker at every gas pump and every, you know, scale in town and everything like that. So I worked in that department and everything like that. Well, I worked at that job for a couple years. Heavily involved in politics, doing political consulting as well. New congressmen and senators on a first name basis, you know, just was pretty well plugged into politics. Had a pretty good, a pretty well paying job for somebody in their young 20s. Department head, you know, doing weights and measures.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] And then Chicago's known for its politics, by the way.

Steven Pynakker [00:27:09] Yeah, yeah. And just so you know, from north Northwest Indiana, the political, the Democrat political machine was very much like the, the cook county machine in Chicago. It's. It was a political machine.

John Dehlin [00:27:18] Is that Dan Quayle territor territory?

Steven Pynakker [00:27:20] Well, Dan Quayle came up and visited up there quite a bit, but he wasn't from that part of Indiana. But, but he was good friends. He had a lot of good friends up there. But yeah, and Quail was a little before my time. I knew people that were friends with him, but I never actually. I did meet him once. That's right. So. So yeah, so I was involved in politics and then this job didn't really work out very well because one of the mayor's assistants had it out for me. He, he was questioning my loyalty and just. He was a super paranoid guy. Then they made life miserable for me. The at war basically made me quit. So that's what happened. So then I'm like, okay, Steven, you've done the politics thing. You were pretty good at it, but you need to take a break from the politics. And so I am a book guy. So I went to Borders bookstore all the time. And in northwest Indiana, it's culturally a very conservative area. Very conservative culturally. And people weren't openly gay people would get beat up. As a matter of fact, the, the mayor of the city that I worked at had a reputation was when he was a young man, they would beat up gay people when he was a young people at the get in in the city. So he, him and his crew would go and beat up gay people. So that was the mayor. That's the story that I'd heard that and I'd heard it from some of his friends about that. So that's the kind of hostile, hostile environment that I was in. Very homophobic. But there was. Borders bookstore was like the cultural center of Northwest Indiana. And it was also the place where all the gay people felt comfortable. And you had a bunch of gay people that worked there and they were openly gay and they felt comfortable working there. And it was like, this is our. We run the show here, right? It was a safe space. So you had a bunch of gay youth would go there and hang out, you know, so it was a place that gay people felt very comfortable, can be openly expressive with their sexuality or just be more like themselves because they know that they were at a place. So that was the only place you could go that you felt safe. So I thought, okay, I'm going to get a job at Borders because then I can help. I can create my own community that can be supportive of me. Because I knew the time was coming very quickly that I was going to come out of the closet because I had to deal with this.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:43] So the.

Steven Pynakker [00:29:43] So I kind of broke from the politics and. And then I thought, okay, now I have to deal with this sexuality, you know, and have to be honest with people. But also I was like, I want to have a boyfriend. You know, I want to experience those kind of things too. That was stolen from me. You know, I couldn't have a first date in high school. I couldn't go through the process that one most heterosexual people go through and be able to express yourself and, you know, and have your first kiss and all that, you know, I mean, of course I kissed girls and went on dates with girls, but that, that obviously, you know, how did that work for you? Right. That wasn't great.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:24] Yeah, I'm actually thinking about that and I've never thought about it that way. Well, probably at some point, but it's a big deal like growing up and being high school and not. Not being able to have the experience the same experiences that just a normal heterosexual beer would have.

Steven Pynakker [00:30:42] Yeah, right. That's right. Yeah. And so you do feel like you've lost this period of your life that you never. So. So I'm. I'm like 24, 25 when I take the job at Borders. And, and. But I'm, I'm. I'm mentally very. When it comes to my sexuality, I'm still a high schooler. Right. Because I haven't really gone through all the trials and tribulations of growing up and figuring things out and all that. That comes with the territory. So I'm emotionally a teenager or still, still in high school in that regard. So I, I was just like, I thought, okay, well, I can work here. So I got my job there. And. But I was Mr. Republican. Right winger.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] But you're a Log Cabin Republican.

Steven Pynakker [00:31:28] Well, yeah, I, Yeah, I guess you could say, yeah. And this is, this is the fun part. So once I got to work there, I was like, I told everybody right away, oh, yeah, I'm gay. Or they would come and ask me, or I knew it. You know, I was a regular customer there, so I was recognized by everybody. But yeah, so everybody was like, they're really embracing and opening. Open to me. But I was also very. Still strongly an evangelical Christian, still very conservative in my beliefs and in my faith. And so I was very open about that too. That, yes, I am gay, but I'm not a liberal and I'm not an atheist. I am a right wing, born again Christian who just happens to be gay. And so, and everybody there and this was the most interesting dichotomy about Borders there is that you had a contingent of gay people, large gay people, but you also had a lot of evangelical community Christians that work there as well. So it was this great place where we could intersect with each other. And I was standing in between. Right. Those two groups, because I had feet in both camps. Right. So I actually hit it off very well with, you know, I didn't have any lesbian friends. All of a sudden I have lesbian friends and hit it off with them, and I got community and friendships with them and actually didn't really get along with any of the other gay guys there. By the way, how old were you? Like I said, I was around 25 when all this. When I took the job. 24, 25 when I took the job there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:45] So.

Steven Pynakker [00:32:46] But I was more, you know, I'm still more heterosexual in the sense that I'm the guy that goes to the sports bars and hangs out with the guys. More so than going to a gay bar. Like, I rarely ever would go out to gay bars because I just didn't feel comfortable to meet me.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:59] So.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:01] So, yeah, so I never. And like I said, I didn't really get along too well with a lot of the gay guys that worked there for whatever reason, But I made friends. And then that was the place where I was able to come out to people and then feel comfortable and tell my story. And then that was the place where I decided that then now that I have this place, then I can use that as the time and place to start telling my family and friends about coming out, because I felt like it was important that I do that. How did it go? So I just remember

Guest 6 [00:33:36] around.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] What year is this?

Steven Pynakker [00:33:38] This would have been probably around 99.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:42] So I remember.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] This is going to sound weird, but that's still before it was cool. I mean, yeah, you could say it's

Steven Pynakker [00:33:48] not cool now, but yeah, actually, it took guts.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] It was pre. Ellen, right?

Steven Pynakker [00:33:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] Ellen coming out.

Steven Pynakker [00:33:52] Well, it actually was just not a couple years maybe after that, but still, yeah, coming out in the 90s was not an easy thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] It's still not easy.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:00] So it's still not easy. But you never saw people holding hands in the, in the, in the malls like you do now. You know, you didn't see any of that kind of thing. So it was, it was a, it was a tough thing. Yeah. So I just remember I used to be a regular at the Bennigans, which was. I mean, I'm, I, I'm back in the day. I, I Could drink. I drank a lot, you know, So I was like, I, like, hung out at bars all the time, you know,

John Dehlin [00:34:25] I was one of those cheers. Like cheers.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:26] Like cheers. Yeah. It really kind of felt like cheers because I was at Bennegan's all the time, and there was a gay bartender

John Dehlin [00:34:31] for our gen zers. It's, it's like what Chili's or Bennegans is.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Anymore.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:36] That's right. That's not around anymore. Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Just a bar. Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:39] That's a pretty decent food too, I think.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:41] We had a Bennegans in Merida.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:43] Growing up.

Steven Pynakker [00:34:45] So, yeah. So I, I, this is also the place where I met up with a bunch of ex Jehovah's Witnesses as well. And that was helpful, actually. I'll, I'll get to that in a second. But so there's this gay bartender that works there. And I remember I had the courage to come out to him and I just had to tell somebody. But this guy had like a shady reputation. So he was kind of like one of those people that spread gossip and told lies. So my strategy was I can come out to him, but if I decided that, oops, I made a mistake, and he goes around and tells everybody, I say, nah, he's a lot, you guys know he's a liar. He makes stories up about people. So even my very first person I came out to was very much well thought out. I'm going to come out to somebody, but it has somebody with a reputation that I could still, if I wanted to go back into the closet, I could deny it, and then everybody would believe me and nobody would believe him. Okay. So that's how it worked out. But I just remember I finally came out to him. And I remember I wake up the next morning and I just felt like, so light on my feet, like the burden was lifted. I remember driving, and the sun seemed that much more brighter. I just felt so good. It really was a very liberating feeling to have finally told somebody. So at that point, it was like, okay, I came out, I did it, and I don't have to worry. I'm going to start telling some of my friends and then eventually my family. So all the guys I would hang out at the bar with, then I started telling them. And of course, a lot of them were very homophobic, did all the jokes and did all the toxic masculine stuff that you would have at the bar, which, of course, I was a participant in. Right. And they all were on their own ways, were accepting of me. So I didn't lose, actually didn't lose any friends, which is good. Most of them are right wing, conservative and even one that really like he harbored racist views and homophobic views. And I thought maybe I'd lose him. I didn't even lose him as a friend.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] He probably secretly thought you were cute.

Steven Pynakker [00:37:05] So. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't lose any friends, which that. So that gave me another, another support group. Right. My drinking buddies, right. And, and some, some of my other friends. So I can. I have this community. And then what was helpful too was a lot of the. The. One of my best friends at the time was an ex Jehovah's Witness. And then he also would hang out with other jokes ex Jehovah's Witnesses. So we all in our own way could help each other because we both are dealing with them. The rejection of being ostracized by their family and the hurt and the pain they're suffering. So I could be empathetic with their plight because of the things that I've experienced in my life too. So it actually made for another great support group to talk to people and have kind of an understanding, you know, with them as well, because they, you leave the extra Jehovah's Witnesses and you lose your family, they all turn your back on you. Of course, I thought maybe the same would happen to my family as well that people would turn their back on, on me as well. Now I didn't come out to everybody in the family, but most of the family did. Eventually, Eventually I came out to my mom. How did they take it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:14] Your mom?

Steven Pynakker [00:38:15] You know, my mom didn't. I honestly thought maybe she would have suspect she had. No, she did not suspect it, but she was very loving and very kind about it. And then she told dad and dad in his own way was. I mean, my father was a very difficult person. So we, we didn't know how he would. And he was very, very anti gay. Very, very, very vocally anti gay. But he, he did, he did okay in his own way, you know, so I didn't. And you know, so. And then my siblings. But then I had my younger sister who when I talked to her, she was like very accepting and very understanding of it. And then. But her husband, who would end up becoming a minister, had maybe some views that were not as open to it. You know, now he's just trying to justify sin, Julie, don't listen to him. You know, that kind of thing. So it was, there was a tension there that I had with him. And there's still kind of always been a tension between him and I a little bit about different things, you know, so. Yeah, but it was. I mean, I'm actually giving you just a real. I mean, it's been so long since I've told any of this that if I get too deep, I'm going to probably start breaking down and crying and stuff. So I'm just trying to give you a basic understanding of the story because. But yeah, this was this.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:36] Now when you're telling, like, important people like your mom, are they giving you that message that usually parents today would give to their son or daughters who are coming out as queer, like, oh,

Steven Pynakker [00:39:51] it's okay,

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:54] but don't act on it. Is that kind of like the message that you got or like.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:00] Yeah, so I made it really clear when I came out that I was going to be openly be gay and I was not going to be celibate, that this is who I am and I'm going to date other men and stuff like that. So I made it very clear that that's part of the reason I'm coming out is I want to start, you know, hanging out and going out on dates and doing this kind of stuff and being able to do it openly.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:22] Yeah, that's pretty good that they took it.

Steven Pynakker [00:40:25] All right, well, this is the thing. Like, nobody, I mean, it's, look, there's nobody that could go and say, well, I'm going to get into an argument with Steven about this, because they just knew that that would, they're not going to win that argument because I, I, I, I do all the research, man, you know, so nobody would take me on because they just knew that they, I think they're afraid to even take me on because they'd be. Maybe I would convince them that I was right and they wouldn't certainly want to have that happen either, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:52] And by the way, by that point, have you reconciled your idea, like your, the ideas on the Bible about homosexuality with what you were going to decide to do? How were you thinking about those things? Were you thinking separate about your faith and then this yes. That you want to follow, or were you able to just bring them together?

Steven Pynakker [00:41:13] Yeah, I just remember talking to one of my friends and he said, we were at the bar and he said, but it's a sin. And I said, no, I don't think it's a sin. So at this point, I'm kind of leaning towards more of a progressive view of Scripture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:24] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:41:25] And Christianity as well. I did read a lot of stuff. I don't really know how to reconcile the verses even to this day. You know, I think some of the verses that progressives would say aren't talking about homosexuality. You can argue that they are. But my point being is that within I, I just, I studied enough to know that there's a. There's another way of looking at the Bible and sexuality, that the homosexuality as we understand it. Like I said, the word didn't even exist until the 1940s.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:51] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:41:52] So it's. It's not even modern. Homosexuality is not under. In. In the Bible. And, you know, it's not there. So it's not really directly addressing what I would consider to be how we would understand homosexuality be in. In today's world.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:08] There's a documentary going to come out sometime soon called 1946, I think, about when the word homosexual was introduced in the Bible in 1946, and how that was interpreted to mean modern homosexuality. But that's not what it's talking about.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:27] Yeah, yeah. And. And we don't have to get too deep in what the Bible has to say about it, but I think that like, even, like the, the word before was the word sodomy.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:35] Right.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:36] Was the word that they would use. Right. But it, it's weird because the whole story of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality. Right. It's not about that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:46] It's about rape.

Steven Pynakker [00:42:47] It's about rape. It's. Yeah. And that was very common in. To this day, there are places in the Middle east that you have to be careful. Like, you could be raped if being a male.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] So even in Utah. That's true sometimes.

Guest 6 [00:43:00] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:00] It's. Yeah, it's very possible everywhere. But I mean, within the cultural context, there's cultural rape that still happens, especially in some Middle Eastern cultures. So it seems to be something about that then. It has to do with. So even using the word sodomy is not an accurate description of what was happening. It isn't homosexuality. It's. It's rape. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:22] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:22] So. So I, I studied this Bible well enough to know. To come up with these answers so that I had a defense that I could give to defend my position as well.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] So you concluded that the Bible was an anti lgbt? Well, back then.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:35] Back then, I kind of was able to reconcile things in a way where I could still be a Christian, still believe in the Bible and also be. Be openly gay. And that's. I, I was still on the tightrope, as you might imagine. Right. But I was trying to Figure out a way I could maneuver myself through this world, because this is uncharted territory at this point. There aren't a whole lot of people doing this. Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] In the late 90s.

Steven Pynakker [00:43:58] In the late 90s. Yeah. And that openly gay evangelical Christian.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] Okay, so where did. Where does your story take you? And, and we've. I'm dying to know how you lost your faith.

Steven Pynakker [00:44:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] And then where. This takes you in with Mormonism as well. Okay. I don't want to rush.

Steven Pynakker [00:44:17] Whatever. Oh, no, no, this is fine. I'm very comfortable. I just want to acknowledge that. So I'm age 25 and I'm working at Borders, and there's this guy who works. He's a barista in the cafe. And there's a bit of an age disparity, which back then wasn't. I don't know how people view it today, but I was 25 and he was 19, and I had a big crush on him. And so he was my first boyfriend. And I still have very much care for him. You know, we. We. We both still have affection for each other. So that was a real big turning point to me to just, you know, have a boyfriend and be all. And I was openly out with my. We'd go out for dinner. I mean, I was very open. Now we go to Chicago a lot. That was a much safer place to go too, you know. But. Yeah, so I just want to acknowledge Mauricio, you know, I. You mean a lot to me. You've. You really played a major role in my life and I still care about you. I just want to thank you for being part of my life, Mauricio. So, yeah, that meant a lot to me.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] How long did you date Mauricio?

Steven Pynakker [00:45:36] We were very tumultuous. It was a very tumultuous relationship. So we, We. He was in the process of moving to California and la. He was all about the LA lifestyle and all that kind of stuff and jet set. And I was about, well, I want to stay in Northwest Indiana and get elected to office one day maybe. You know, he hated the region and I wanted to run for office, so we had that. And. And so he broke up with me when he took his job, you know, or when he moved out to Los Angeles. And it was. I was absolutely devastated by that. We actually did get back together again a couple years later. Started dating. That didn't work out anymore, so I never. I hadn't talked to him for decades. Well, I guess, long story short, I started this channel up and then I started reaching Back out to people. And he's one of the people I reached out to and we started talking right when I started this channel. And I remember the first time he came on the Zoom and I was like, oh, there you are. And hey, I still have affection for you. Like, like I'm really.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:32] Hey, good.

Steven Pynakker [00:46:32] Now we're just friends. We just talk now and then. But I mean that he was an important person in my life. We both suffered from mental ill, like depression and anxiety and stuff like that. And so we were. Both were dealing with our. Also our ills, our issues. So that's part of what underlined our. Why our relationship was kind of messy because we both had a lot of issue mental issues too. Yeah, yeah. So we both acknowledge that now. So, hey, thanks, Mauricio. For.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] Thanks, Mauricio.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [00:47:05] Yeah, I just had to talk about him because he meant a lot to me.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Oh, that's great. Okay. So, I mean, did you have a question?

Leaving Christianity and a Period of Atheism

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:14] Is it around that time when you started losing your faith? How does that go?

Steven Pynakker [00:47:18] No, actually, I mean, I remember even Mauricio was telling me when we were talking, when we got reconnected, he. Because at some point we became friends again on Facebook, but just on Facebook. And then I had told him that I'd become atheist. And he had told me later on as we were talking, he said, steve, when you told me you're atheist, that was so shocking to me because your faith played such an important role to you even while we were dating. My faith was very, very important to me. So he even. He recognized how important of a role faith played in my life as well. So, yeah, that, that was.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] How did it happen? I'm dying to know. How did you lose your faith?

Steven Pynakker [00:47:55] Well, you know, so actually I tell people, and I would tell people at the time that I read myself out of Christianity. See, I. Even though I researched and studied everything, right, I had a blind spot, and that was atheism, and it was also Christian apologetics. So I just thought, I don't have to worry about that. Atheism is just something out there. It was. I didn't even think about it. I even thought when I later on I said, how in the world could I have walked past all these atheist books and not have paid any attention to them? Right? Because it was just this blind spot. I wasn't even interested in reading about it. But what happened was one day I decided, I'm going to start studying Christian apologetics. I need to, you know, Paul says we need to have a ready answer. I'm going to have the answer and I'm going to be able to defend the faith in a way and even, even a better way than I had been doing. So I remember I just picked up the perennial bestseller by Josh McDowell called evidence that Demands a Verdict. And I remember picking that up. I was at Borders and I started paging through it and it didn't take me long to recognize that, oh, we got a serious, serious problem here. I mean, literally just started paging through it and reading just a couple sentences and I thought, oh no, no, no, no, this is, this is not going to work. You can't make these arguments. And then I also had the recognition that I thought these apologists were defending the faith against atheists. They were there to be the counter offensive to atheism. They were taking atheism head on and they were beating them in debates and we're winning. And I then recognized that most of the apologetic literature that was written was not written to convince atheists that Christianity is true or other people. But it was there to keep Christians in Christianity. It was to bolster people's faith. And that really bothered me.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] What were the big arguments?

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:01] Just side note, but that's exactly the same story of Carrie Melsi. No, not Carrie, it's biker professor.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:15] And how he lost his faith in Mormonism. He realized that fair Mormon and apologists, or Mormon apologists didn't really have good answers for atheists. So he said, I'm going to take on that. He started reading about atheism.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] So what were the big arguments that were troubling to you against Christianity?

Steven Pynakker [00:50:34] Well, the biggest problems, well the, the biggest problem I had with the apologetic book was that I was assuming he was addressing atheists. And then he made a statement in there. It was very clear the the Bible is, can be scientifically attested to that you don't, you know, that the science backs Christianity. And then he had a footnote. I said I'm going to look at the footnote, go through it. And I look and it says the Genesis flood was his science text, that he was referring to it. How being a scientifically Bible scientifically found this is young earth creationism. Well, that's where the aha moment happened because I thought, wait, if this is written for atheists, they're not going to accept that Christianity is of the Bible is scientifically valid because of the. Some guys wrote a book about the flood happening 6,000 years ago. So that's the moment where I said they're not writing this again. They're just writing this to keep people in the church. And like we said, I mean, that was just the most shocking thing for me. So this, at this point, I'm like, okay, I need to really study things. And so I had some idea about biblical scholarship. So I really studied biblical scholarship. So I remember this was probably the early 2000s, and I remember taking a survey on like Beliefnet or one of the sites that was around then and asked you, what kind of Christian are you? And I remember filling it out and the answer was, I was a liberal Quaker. It was the type of Christian I am. So this is the type of Christian I am, like liberal Quaker. Okay. Because I kind of was starting to read, you know, I was understanding scholarship and trying to understand biblical scholarship and also trying to read science and understand science a little bit better too, and trying to reconcile it with, you know, scriptures and my faith and everything like that.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] But those who haven't watched maybe our David Bacavoy or Bart Ehrman episodes, can you summarize higher criticism or biblical criticism?

Steven Pynakker [00:52:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:32] So.

Steven Pynakker [00:52:32] And I will say that I probably wouldn't say I embrace all of it. All of what they were saying. I embraced all of it back then. Like, I accepted. But. But the argument is that what we think is in the Bible or was in the original manuscripts is not there. Like the long ending of Mark was added on later on that the Yohim coma, the trinitarian formula that's in John was actually added by Erasmus around 14, you know, in the 1400s. It wasn't in the original text that Matthew didn't write Matthew, Mark didn't write math. You know, the four synoptic gospels or the three synoptic Gospels weren't written by the authors that were attached to them. At least this is what, you know, that school of thought has to say. I do have an opinion on that. And then we have. Then is the documentary. A documentary hypothesis regarding the Pentateuch, the books of Moses. Right. And that we can. The idea is that they weave together that there's actually comes from different sources that were weaved together. So the J or Yahwist source, you had the P, the priestly source. Yeah, like two or three.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] Isn't there Q?

Steven Pynakker [00:53:42] No. Q is actually the idea that we have. The Gospel of Mark is the oldest gospel.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] Well, you want to take off Old Testament?

Steven Pynakker [00:53:51] Oh, no, but I, I can circle back to Old Testament that, that, that Q is another source that Matthew and Luke would have been using in addition, and that. That there's parts that are not in there that Q would be the, the, the source of where these things would, would have come from to create that. That's not in Mark, but it's in Matthew and Luke. So they're working off those texts and they're just. Quelle is German for source. And that's where we get the Q hypothesis, which most biblical scholars do accept. But I kind of think there's, there might be a counter argument to that as well. So we go, yeah, and that's fine. So then we get back to this idea is that the, the, the Pentateuch was not written by Moses, but it was all these different sources, some from the Northern kingdom, some from the Southern kingdom, and different scribes, and it was all put together and then was presented as something that came from Moses. Right. So that's, this is. Would that be a pretty good summary?

John Dehlin [00:54:49] That's great.

Steven Pynakker [00:54:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Yeah. And it makes you realize that, that the Bible isn't anything like you thought. You just kind of imagine Matthew. Let me tell you about what I saw when I was hanging around Jesus and you know, but it's nothing like that.

Steven Pynakker [00:55:07] Yeah, yeah. And that's right. And, and there are believing scholars who believe all this and still are. Still believe in God and Jesus and all this. So it's not, not, it's not a deal, buster. As a matter of fact, I tell people Bart Ehrman did not leave Christianity because of biblical scholarship. He left it because of the problem of evil. You know, so that was not a deal breaker for him either. But it really did bother me because it gave me a view of script I wasn't taught. And a lot of these scholars are learning this at Christian universities and there's ministers, at least some that are also being taught this as well, or at least made aware of it. And they're not addressing it in their sermons and they're not talking about it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:49] I do want to say this, and I don't know if you know this, Steven, but even David Bokovoy, even after going to school and learning all this higher criticism of the Bible, he still wanted to make Mormonism work. He still wanted to work for byu.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:04] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:04] He still wanted to teach institute and religious classes. So I think something. David Bocaboy has been demonized by making a lot of ex Mormons lose their faith on Jesus. But I, I think the approach that David Buckavoy takes is not like.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] And people want to believe. They're going to believe. It doesn't matter what, what any evidence is.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] So. But yeah, to your point, belief can be incredibly resilient to Rod Meldrum is the testimony. Belief can overcome everything.

Guest 6 [00:56:40] Right?

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Yeah, Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:42] I like Rod. That's why I like Rod so much.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Me too.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:44] Yeah, absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:45] So.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:46] But, yeah, so, but I didn't. I ended. So I. So I would say I was still born again Christian believer, but also had a pretty good knowled all the biblical scholarship. So that would inform me.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] But you were saying maybe you felt betrayed.

Steven Pynakker [00:56:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] That you hadn't been told this by all the pastors and religious educators.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:04] Yeah. So at this point, I'm not going to any church because I feel like these guys are not telling everybody like the full story here. They're hiding things from people and that

John Dehlin [00:57:13] we relate to in the. More Jen's. Jen's nodding her head.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, I think that there's some. There are a lot of parallels in my world too.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] This is your heritage, your birthright. Your birthright.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:23] It's my birthright. I have a right.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] How your Bible came together.

Steven Pynakker [00:57:26] That's right, man. And I was going to find out and get to the bottom of this and look at all the sources and stuff. So I did. So now I have like this understanding of biblical scholarship and all these other things. But then I. I really started questioning whether there was a God or not. You know, it really started becoming more and more apparent to me that maybe there wasn't a God, because in one sense it got me wrong. Right. Like what Christians were saying about gay people and how I actually was. Were, wasn't. It didn't jive. There was. They weren't saying, like I told people. If everything you said about gay people was true, then I wouldn't like them either. But you're saying you're not saying true things about gay people. This is not authentic and true. And you're spreading lies and you're bearing false witness against other people. And so that really bothered me. So I, I just had to kind of separate myself from the church altogether. I couldn't even go to weddings at some point because the pastor would use the, the wedding as a denunciation of those who want to get, you know, ruin this by gay marriage. I remember one pastor talking about David and Jonathan and. Well, some gay people. And this was at a wedding. Some people want to say that they were gay. You know, they're distorting and they're corrupting and perverting scripture, you know, and it does. Those are the kind of things you hear during wedding ceremonies. Right. So even going to wedding ceremonies became a real burden. Very burdensome to me as well. So I just Kind of had to cut myself from all of that. But I couldn't be a liberal, that's the thing. So I couldn't, I couldn't see myself going to a progressive Christian church because I was like, that's just namby pamby nonsense. I don't, you know, it's like, like, oh, we're gonna take up an offering for the dolphins to save them. You know, it's like, that's how I

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:17] felt at the time.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:17] You're like, I don't want to, I'm not gonna that, you know, so I didn't. Was so, so liberal or progressive Christianity held no interest to me. So I just, I started, started realizing that there's. Okay, I gotta now really, really start. I think this is about when like the new atheists came on the scene. So you got Christopher Histions, you got Sam Harris, you got Daniel Dennett.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] And after 9, 11 is when the 2001, 2003.

Steven Pynakker [00:59:44] Yeah, it was that period of time. And see, September 11th really did kind of affect me on some level too. I think that, that it. I remember I was at a, I was at a dinner and there was a minister talking and they were talking about. And I still would say I was a believer. Right. And remember that cross beam that was shaped like a cross that survived and like became this symbol site on the

John Dehlin [01:00:10] World Trade center site? Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:00:11] And this minister goes and says, in the midst of all of this, God made a point to reach in there and create that cross or cause that cross to happen. And I'm just sitting there hearing him say that, why didn't he reach in there and save all their lives? Right. You mean to tell me he's like, I'm going to make some statement by creating some cross in this rubble amongst this carnage? And you think because he was like, he was actually the head of the Salvation army at Ground Zero at their tent and he was gonna, he was speaking about it and so he was there firsthand and he seemed to think that this cross really was important. And I'm sitting there like, this is horrible. Like, no, that's not a good argument. That's not God. That's not my God. Right. And so that really, really kind of bothered me immensely. God took the time to put his hand in there and make that cross. No, I didn't like that at all. And then, see, there's a lot of that in Christianity and we see that also within Mormonism that thought like, you know, miracles and there's a child being raped right now. I still feel that Way like, I mean I still have a very nuanced view of, of my Christian faith too. I. Oh, you know, God is really behind this whole thing that I'm doing and I'm brought here because of God and all this. I also recognize there are horrible things happening to people right now who are screaming out to God and nothing is being done. And so I acknowledge that as well. So I just think that we have to, you know, we have to make sure that we're also grounded in reality too. You know, so there's just things that set me off. Then I started reading all the new atheist stuff. George Bush is. Things are spiraling with Katrina and he's shows he's completely incompetent as a president at this point. So now my Republican Party is letting me down. You know, everything is just kind of collapsing. My world that I thought was. My foundations were just kind of crumbling. You know, I'm saying during this period of time. So I just, that's when I lost

John Dehlin [01:02:21] my faith in Republicanism. And, and it's, I, now I'm nonpartisan. So I don't want you to think that means I'm, you know, listeners, they get so mad when you talk politics. But I, I had been out voting only for Republican up until around 2001, 2002. That's when I stopped voting Republican at the time. And, and that's when I started losing my faith.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:44] So we're losing our faith right around the same time.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Right around the same time. Not that it matters, but.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:48] No, that's actually when you think.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] By the way, I'm a registered Republican now. Republicans. Don't be mad at me.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:51] Me.

Steven Pynakker [01:02:52] But he's a rhino. He's a rhino.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] So, so the universe has us in parallel losing our having a faith crisis at the same time.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:00] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] In Republicanism and in our faith.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is interesting that we're going through this journey together in one sense. Yeah. So just this whole world's collapsing and then I'm just decided I'm going to read all the atheists books. I'm going to read every single one of them.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] And Dawkins, Dennett.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:17] Yep, yep. Just all of them. Every single one of the bestsellers. All the books. And then I was, then I was in the atheist section.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Russell.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:25] Yeah, I was reading some of the old classics. I was the.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Who's the guy that early 1900s who wrote about atheism quite a bit. I'm forgetting this.

Steven Pynakker [01:03:33] Yeah, I'm sure I read some of his stuff. I would Read Skeptic Mag. Well, I actually would read Skeptic magazine since the mid-90s. I really like that magazine. So I always kind of had a little bit of a skeptical bone in me, you know, because I'm a truth seeker. So I want to read everything. I wasn't afraid to read things, you know, but I. I just read all this stuff. And I remember I was reading Samuel Harris's book, A Letter to a Christian Nation, and I'm reading this book now. I'm still clinging to faith at this point. And I remember the moment where I'm reading in the book. And he said, and for those progressive Christians and gay affirming Christians, get out of your clown costumes, your vestments. And just. Just realized this is all like BS or something. It was like a line, like, along those lines. It was almost like he was just saying, come on, you're just. It's a farcical. You're playing a farce. You're dressing up for church in these vestments, like talking about, like, these liberal progressives that, you know are playing church or dressing up. And you just got to accept this is. None of this is true. And, you know it's not true. And I just remember, like, not just

John Dehlin [01:04:35] that he, he made the argument that they were enabling.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:37] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] They were enablers of evil.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:39] Yes. That they almost in one sense were the worst type of Christians. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] I remember reading that.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Because I was a progressive Mormon at the time.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:46] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:47] So that to me was like, okay, game over. I'm an atheist now.

John Dehlin [01:04:54] Because Sam Harris said so.

Steven Pynakker [01:04:56] He said so. That's right. Yeah. So I was pretty hardcore atheist for a long time there. I read myself out of Christianity.

John Dehlin [01:05:05] So how many years did you identify as an atheist or agnostic, do you think?

Steven Pynakker [01:05:10] Okay, so I would say this had to have been probably around 2006 or so. And then I would have probably called myself a pretty hardcore atheist, probably till I would say probably about 2017, 2018. I would have then started thinking of myself as more agnostic, maybe. So I kind of just kind of my heart started softening towards believers and people of faith, and I could see some positivity and people having faith. So I kind of went from being like, I hate religion and burn the whole thing down to I can see some utility to it. And so that kind of put me more in an agnostic camp, you know.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] And if I'm remembering the timeline from part one, it's around 2005, 2006, where you get. You experience your worst depression.

Steven Pynakker [01:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] So where you start to feel like there's no reason to be living.

Steven Pynakker [01:06:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] Except for studying Mormonism. Yeah, but. But do I have the timeline right? That your major depression corresponds with your self identification as atheist?

Steven Pynakker [01:06:23] Yeah. So it's interesting because I think I have been suffering from depression all my life. And I actually, just to give you another example of September 11th, I was in the midst of horrible depression during September 11th. And when September 11th happened, my depression subsided. And the reason why it subsided was because everybody else was in my own. Was in my world now. They were all shell shocked, they were all in mourning, they were all depressed. So I thought like, well, I can live in this world. So my depression went away because I'm like, everybody else is like me now, you know? So I flourished after September 11 happened on a personal level. Okay, yeah, it was weird.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] But you did talk about those 10 years or so where you didn't want to live.

Steven Pynakker [01:07:09] Yeah. And so that would have been after I'm an atheist, I become an atheist. And then. And then I had some. I had some bad years, actually. I had some bad years and like. Yeah, so I guess you could say that. Really bad years in 2006, 2007. Then I had a little bounce where I was doing better, like in for about a year or so. But then I just really spiraled. I lost a couple job. I lost a job. I was fired. It's the first time I was ever fired from a job. And that just began the spiral of me just kind of disconnecting from humanity, not wanting to have anything to do with anybody in my family, just kind of just cutting myself from everybody, all my friends, everybody. So now we're looking at like my final separation from everybody in my life would have probably been around circa 2010, 2011, where now I've just entered into a world of isolation. I don't want to know anybody. I don't want to have relationship with anybody. I don't want to. I just want to. I don't want to. Every. I'm just in pain. I'm in pain because of all the. Partly because of all that I went through being gay in closet and all the cruel things that were said about me. I said one of the nice advantages of being in the closet is you get to hear what people say about you behind your back. Right. Because they don't know you're gay. So you get to hear all the comments to how they really think about you. That's one advantage that you get to have by being in the closet. So I know how everybody felt. And I never really got the family to really be fully accepting of me, you know. And I also probably, I did and said things that were self isolating. So I did things that pushed them away as well. So it's not just like, oh, I'm the victim. You know, I recognize that. I didn't say, I said things too, that would have been, you know, where I would have been pushing them back, pushing them away as well. So yeah, that, that's so, yeah, that puts us like around, you know, the beginning of the last decade. And so I basically just, just completely isolated from the world. I spent quite a bit of my time alone at our Michigan property. And then I was in a rural area, so I was very isolated from people.

John Dehlin [01:09:14] Upper Peninsula?

Steven Pynakker [01:09:15] No, well, we had a cottage in the Upper Peninsula. This was be in the Dutch triangle of southwest Michigan. So I spent quite a bit of time there. I was relatively isolated from people. And then I would come down, sometimes down to Florida during the winter. And so the only people I had any connection to was my parents in the family. That's it. And I had completely cut ties with everybody else, including all the rest of my family and friends. And they were just basically my lifeline, you know, that's the only reason, I mean, I contemplated homelessness. You know, I, I, I, I thought of ways that I could probably go homeless or, you know, how I could do it, right, Living in cars, whatever, you know, that kind of thing. That those would be things that were real things that I would, was seriously considering that that would be maybe where I would end up or that if I don't commit suicide, what, what's, what, what would I need to do to, to be homeless? Yeah, so that was, that's, that's really where I was at. I was in a real dark place.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] It's dark, man. I'm so sorry.

Steven Pynakker [01:10:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, I was in hell, man. I was in hell. And, and the thing that made it so bad was there was a period of time where I was doing so well and I was flourishing. So I had depression, really. You know, I was flourishing for a while when I was working at Borders then and I, and then took a job with the congressional campaign and I took a job selling cars for about five years at a Ford dealership in Calumet City, Illinois. And that was kind of okay for a while. So I made good money and stuff. But then as I was there after a couple years, that became a miserable experience. So I'm making money, but I'm absolutely miserable. And then I have a little bounce back after I leave that job and I kind of get back involved in politics again and I'm having some success again and then things kind of fall through there. And it's almost like once I lost that, once I was fired, it was like at that point I just realized like, oh no, I'm sliding. Really. Like I knew I was going to go to a very deep, dark place for a very, very long time. And I was, it was just really bad. It was horrible for me. And because I knew what I didn't know, I didn't see, I had no, I lost all hope. I had no options in my life, so I completely lost hope. So, you know, during these episodes of depression throughout the years, and this would be like even counting the 10 year period that, that I was really bad throughout all these depressive times, I would be in, still would be reading, you know, studying other things. But the one thing I kept going back to was my study of Mormonism. And I had mentioned to you before how I recognize that if that part of me dies, that interest of me dies, then I die. So that's what threw me into studying Mormonism so much. And that I honestly tell you folks, Mormonism saved my life. Studying it, I had a community. It was just words on pages, but I had friends there. I had Joseph Smith, my bud. Right. I had, I had a connection to something that I was interested in that kept me alive. And so for me, I will forever be grateful to Mormonism and to Joseph Smith because you saved my life.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:35] It did.

John Dehlin [01:12:35] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:12:36] Saved my life.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:40] Powerful.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] And I don't know what to make of that. Is it just like our histories? You know, like there's a big fascination with cults these days, whether it's the vow or Scientology and going clear or you know, wild, wild country, you know, So I mean you could look at it from that angle or you could look at it from just interesting history that's going back into the 19th century and it's the most successful American born religion ever. Yeah, you know, there's that angle.

Steven Pynakker [01:13:11] Well, Steven Day Adventists would, might dispute that, but.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Oh, right, you're right. You're right. Yeah, you're right. Okay. Second. Yeah, Wealthier though.

Steven Pynakker [01:13:20] Yeah. More powerful. Yeah. The Seventh Day Adventists are too busy building hospitals.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] That was a dig.

Steven Pynakker [01:13:26] Well, I think that, I think the Mormons should be building hospitals. I think it would be a wonderful ministry.

Guest 6 [01:13:31] Yeah, I do too.

John Dehlin [01:13:33] Yeah. So what was it? Why I was going to ask you this. Why not Job's Witnesses. Why not Scientologists? Why not other. Other cults or high demand religions or. You know what I mean? Why Mormonism?

Steven Pynakker [01:13:47] Well, I studied all those religions and that's on. When I was good friends with the Jehovah's Witnesses. They told me.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] But you're not saying that about them.

Steven Pynakker [01:13:54] Right. Those were interesting subjects, but it never pulled. I was only pulled back in. They kept pulling me back in that Mormonism. Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Al Pacino.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:04] Exactly. Kept pulling me back in. And for whatever reason, I kept on going back to it and going back.

John Dehlin [01:14:08] I'm just curious.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:10] I had this insatiable curiosity, right. About it.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] There's nothing. We don't know why. It's just. It just happened to be Mormonism for you.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:17] It just happened to be Mormonism. I just had this obsession.

John Dehlin [01:14:19] We're that cool. It's not that we're like, I think

Steven Pynakker [01:14:21] you guys are awesome. I'm a fanboy, man.

Guest 6 [01:14:25] Like, across the Book of Mormon, he found in the hotel room.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:28] Yeah. When I was. That was a little boy, Donald Freiberg paintings that ultimately led to. I mean, think about all that. If I didn't have Mormonism, I don't know if I would be alive today.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:14:40] And so I have to acknowledge that fact. And so, yeah, it's, it's. I'm very grateful that for whatever reason I was interested in it. And I remember even being pissed off at myself, like, you're such a fool, Steven. You're studying all this stuff. What good is it doing? Like, you know what? Because when you're suffering depression, you're just attacking yourself constantly, you know, and you're, you're hurting yourself. And as you could quite imagine, I would make a very formidable opponent. Right. Imagine me turning my guns on myself. I put myself through hell. Right. And so that's what was going on. So I would even get angry at myself for being interested in Mormonism. But I kept on going, kept on reading, kept on going online, watching YouTube videos, watching Mormon stories, watching gospel tangents, watching anything I could in addition to all the reading and research I was doing on the Internet or books that I was buying. It was just. It was just something that kept me going, man. Kept me going.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] And it wasn't. You probably wouldn't have processed it at the time as trying to save Mormons from like a fallen false church.

Steven Pynakker [01:15:43] No, no. If anything, it just kind of reinforced my atheism because. Yeah, that's what it did in one sense. It reinforced my atheism. I could. Look, I gave you a naturalistic explanation for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon yesterday. Right. So I was developing all these, these strains of thoughts as an atheist and also was showing like, well, if I can make the same apologetic arguments about the resurrection of Christ as I can with Mormonism, I can make all the same arguments. Then I recognize that the futility of modern Christian apologetics is garbage. In one sense, you could say that it is or it's not. But modern apologists need to acknowledge the Book of Mormon and Mormonism and acknowledge their arguments and take them into consideration when they're making their apologetics remarks, defenses that they need to at least account for Mormonism. I think that's important that they do that.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:39] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] Yeah. And when I think, but when I think about like some of my Christian friends who are into Mormonism, I've always had this perception that it's sort of a little bit of a condescending, you're part of a false church, you're part of a cult. So I feel called to minister. I'm coming to Utah. Kind of the Aaron Shovel level off.

Steven Pynakker [01:17:04] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] Like you're fallen. I'm, I'm saved and I'm here to bless you, to rescue you so you don't go to hell. And that's just, for me, that's just a non starter. I'm just like, that's as bad as the Mormon Church telling everybody they're false. Like, yeah, not interested in that. But that's. You're saying that wasn't what was driving you all those years?

Steven Pynakker [01:17:26] No, no. I mean, I think the initial thing was I got to win that argument with that kid of Powell's books. Right. The old Calvinist. But then that was just my initial foray into really studying it. So if anything, I'm studying Mormonism while I'm in different stages of depression also in different phases of my, you know, coming out to people, being a born again Christian, becoming a progressive Christian, becoming an atheist. And I'm reading Mormonism all along with this journey as well. Right. So it's, it's been following me along in this whole process. So the, that, that's just all part of my story. So Mormonism plays a role in this whole thing. So I never, I remember I was at a Catholic seminary and talking to a Catholic priest because my friend who was an MDiv student there and I was visiting them and of course I spent the whole time just reading their Mormon section while, you know, in their library while I was there, while he's in class. And I remember a Priest coming up to me and said, I hear you're really interested in Mormonism because you're trying to like witness to them. And I, well, I kind of said, yeah, but it wasn't, that wasn't my motivation. I didn't never looked at it as being like my motivation that I was trying to witness to Mormons. I just was interested in it. So right then.

Returning to Spirituality Through Mormon Studies

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:34] Well,

Steven Pynakker [01:18:37] I really like what you said

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:38] about the faults that you were, that you could see with Mormonism. You could see them in Christianity. So you kind of came to this realization, if we're gonna, if we're gonna accept Christianity, Christians have to acknowledge that they have as many faults as Mormons do, so we probably should consider each other.

Steven Pynakker [01:19:01] Yeah, well, and, and I'm not gonna keep score of like who has more faults than the other.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:06] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:19:06] But I'm just saying that there are faults within Christianity that Christians need to acknowledge. If you're going to study Mormonism and you're going to use it as a tool to do missionary work, guys, all right, just hear me out. Do your homework because these aren't, they're not doing their homework and they're not doing any self examination and they're not doing, they're not taking the same research and the same critical thinking skills that they have towards Mormonism. They're not doing it as well or as rigorously with Christianity as they are with Mormonism. They're just trying to prove Mormonism wrong. But they're not really looking at the, maybe some flaws within Christianity as well.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] With much love to Sandra Tanner. That was the most common criticism of her episode. It's like, whoa, you're great about applying a critical eye to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, but it, some people criticize Sander for kind of turning that off when it came to the Bible.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:00] Yeah. And I don't want to, I don't want to criticize Sandra. No.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] But yeah, I'm just saying what people's reaction.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:05] Yeah. And I think that, but I also think that, that, you know, Sandra is not, doesn't have a malevolence against Mormonism that some of these other characters do.

John Dehlin [01:20:14] No, she's good natured. She's super good natured.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:15] Yeah. So, so, and, and some people, they just have, that's her faith and I respect it and that's where she's at. And, and yeah, I sometimes think that, you know, but yeah, I understand that. But I don't have an issue with her. But I get your point. But most not a point.

John Dehlin [01:20:32] Yeah, it's Just an observation. Topical. Of what. What we're talking about.

Steven Pynakker [01:20:36] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Yeah. So I'm. This is just total geekiness of me, like reverse geekery here. But like, when. So you're watching Mormon stories starting around or you're what, you're. You're watching Mormon themed podcasts and YouTube channels starting around what year?

Steven Pynakker [01:20:53] Oh, I've. As soon. As soon as, like, YouTube starts getting big. So I'm starting. I actually started probably with Sean McCraney's Heart of the Matter when he was at the peak of his powers.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:02] You know, 2008, 2009. And I watched him. So I was a regular watcher of his. I consumed his product a lot. And of course, once you go down the Mormon rabbit hole, you start running into other people. And then at some point, I'd have to say within the last. I can't really, because I was still also in the midst of a lot of depression. It's like, everything's like one big, like, blur for me. So I couldn't give you a precise date when I started.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] No, it's fine.

Steven Pynakker [01:21:25] Right. But I'm just saying I'm trying to think it out myself when I did. But. But I would say that, you know, so I've been probably watching you for probably seven, eight, nine years, maybe 10.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] And it's. It's fun for me to imagine. Like, my friend Stephen doesn't know any Mormons. He's somewhere in Michigan or Illinois or Indiana watching YouTube and he's like, learning about the Swedish rescue. He's like, go, Hans Matzon. And he's like, you know, hearing about ordained women and he's like, whoa. And then, oh, John. Oh, excommunication. Will John get excommunicated? And, oh, Jeremy Reynolds came out with this document. And I'm just trying to imagine this guy who's this dude who doesn't know a Mormon, you know, who's glued to YouTube as he's trying to follow all these current events that are happening and Mitt Romney is running for president. And. And then like, how's the church dealing with it? All the gospel to topics, essays come out like, yeah, we're so. Were you, like, observing all that history and current events?

Steven Pynakker [01:22:28] Oh, I mean, I was just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:29] I was.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] Do you remember those moments? Oh, yeah. I want to hear what things you cared about as you were like, following Mormonism as a Never Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Ex evangelical atheist gay man.

Steven Pynakker [01:22:41] Okay. So. Well, and see, that's the thing. I. I was waving the atheist flag while I'm watching your Program, as you might imagine. So you go, John, you take them all down and all this kind of stuff and burn, burn, burn the whole thing down. Like, let's just, you know. So I. I was pretty hardcore and all that. So, yeah, I think that, boy, there's so much, and I can't isolate anything, but. Oh, well, first of all, you're in. I think maybe your interview with Sean McCraney might be one of my entry points that I had with Mormon stories. And so that. That might have been where I maybe met you for the first time, was about then and then. So that one really stuck out.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] Do you remember how he came across? Because he came off differently to me in that interview than he did on Heart of the Matter.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:21] Yeah, I tried to bring out.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] I tried to humanize him. Yeah, a little bit.

Steven Pynakker [01:23:25] Yeah. And actually, that's what I try to do with my. My guests as well, especially the controversial ones, is they're a human being. And. And so, yeah, and Sean, Yeah, he was 180. It was a completely different person. And a lot of Mormons even acknowledged that, wow, this guy kind of like this guy, this kind of show. McCraney, he was just a showman. Sean's a showman. That's all he is. And, yeah, and of course, then I. I was so disappointed a bit. Rami didn't win because, boy, that would have been great for me because that's. They be talking about nothing but Mormonism for the next four years on in the national conversation. Right. So, yeah, so there's. It's. Yeah, it was just, like I said, this was a period of time where I'm suffering severe depression, but I'm watching your program and reading these books, and it's just kind of given. Keeping me going. And then, of course, then probably about six, seven years ago, I run into Rick, or maybe a year after Rick Bennett started, I started watching gospel tangents and see what I really.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:17] The biggest.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:18] The two big things I like most about. The one part I like most about your program is when you bring the scholars on. Right. Like the.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:25] The.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:26] Just the scholars of Mormonism, the historians. That's. That's my. That's. That's. That's my wheelhouse right there. So just about every scholar that you would have had on in the last

John Dehlin [01:24:37] decade, Historian Metcalfe Vogel, Quinn Bushman Givens.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] Kathleen Malonakis.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:24:45] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:45] Yeah. Kathleen Melnock. She was an interesting lady. I got.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:47] I bought that book.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:48] Yeah. So, yeah, so there was just all these. I. If there was. Yeah. So I watched A lot of your stuff and really got grand.

John Dehlin [01:24:54] Palmer.

Steven Pynakker [01:24:55] Oh, yeah. Grant Palmer, man. And I wish I would have met that guy. I remember even watching when you had that special at that person's home honoring him. Honoring him before he died. Yeah. And like, I remember the guy playing one of the rocks. Playing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Tyler Glenn. Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:25:09] Playing the guitar and everything like that. Well, that's the thing. It's like, even. Even maybe I'm hearing a little bit of maybe Grant Palmer. Maybe some of the stuff he's saying is kind of luring me back in a little bit too, you know, say. So there's a process of. I think throughout the years, there's this little things that maybe seeds that are being planted. And even Grant Palmer, like, I intently watched him and really liked him. But he's. He's a Christian, right. And he's teaching the gospel. And I ain't hating on the guy, you know, so then maybe that's. I didn't even. Just dawned on me like, oh, wait, Grant Palmer. Yeah. He might have even played a role in this whole thing. Washington Mormon Stories. So. Yeah. So I. I mean, you would have seen Sandra's interview. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sandra. I mean. And of course, Sandra was a hero to me ever since. I mean, I was engaging the. The Tanners since I was in high school and reading their stuff. I knew about the Tanners probably. Actually. Probably since maybe middle school.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] Yeah. Yeah. It's just so fun to think about people out there who watch.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:13] And I. I'm. People are sick of me saying this, but half our viewers now have never been Mormons. So I wonder if there are other people out there for whom Mormon Stories means as much to them as it did for you. That's. It's humbling, and I'm really grateful to maybe play for all of us, to be playing a small role in people's lives.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:35] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:26:36] I think you have a ministry, John. I told you yesterday, I think you'll be. You're going to be a pastor one day.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:44] People say you already run your own church.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] Cult of Mormon Stories. Okay, so when is the next part?

Steven Pynakker [01:26:55] Like, so let's just talk about the Chris Thomas interview. You want to talk?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:59] Go there?

John Dehlin [01:26:59] Yeah. So that's right. As Covid's beginning.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:01] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] Okay. So Chris Thomas is this lovely man who's a. Who's a charismatic Pentecostal preacher who lives in. You're getting emotional. Who lives in Tennessee. Right. And he reaches out to me and I have lunch with them, and he's just the kindest guy in the world. Smarter like again, smarter than all of us put together. But also connected with the Maxwell Institute and writes a book on Mormonism and how he sees Pentecostalism in the Book of Mormon. And, and he would just stop me at breakfasts and lunches and just. John, I. The Lord loves you, John. Or you know, Jesus loves you John. And you know my, I'm just like, I love you, Chris. Thank you. Thanks. But like feeling a little bit torn about a Christian kind of saying those types of things to me and loving him and talking to me about the Beatles and rock and roll. So that's. So I have Chris Thomas on here. It was here. Did you know? Yeah. So like we used to have the, the interviewer studio right over there.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:03] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:04] So it was in that room with the table where I interviewed Chris right. When I'm just starting to try and up our video and audio game. Before I knew you, Gerardo. Yeah, this is before Gerardo improved our cinematography and it's a great interview. So that, so I interview Chris.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:19] What's that like for you when you're, you're watching it?

Steven Pynakker [01:28:21] Well, so I, I crack, crack open a couple beers. I'm gonna watch me like get my Mormon stories fixed. Right.

John Dehlin [01:28:29] Have you heard of Chris before then?

Steven Pynakker [01:28:30] No, never them.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] Okay.

Guest 6 [01:28:32] No.

Steven Pynakker [01:28:33] And I just started watching them now. You gotta understand, I come from a upper middle class evangelical charismatic world. We looked at Pentecostals as being on the other side of the tracks. They're really. Yes, they're rubes. No, I'm not a Pentecostal. I'm a charismatic. Right. I'm, I'm not having anything to do with those Pentecostals, man. And so I, I thought let's give this guy a shot and see what happens. You know, this is going to be fun. You know, John's going to run this guy through the wringer because to us,

John Dehlin [01:29:06] to us there's no difference between you and Chris. To you there's all the difference of the world.

Steven Pynakker [01:29:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] It's like Pakistan versus India to us

Steven Pynakker [01:29:13] that are all, they're all the same.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] But, but, but to you, like Chris is like.

Steven Pynakker [01:29:16] Yeah, well, just. I was culturally inclined to not be too, I would too keen on Pentecostals especially like, oh, he's from this south on top of it. You know, I just, every stereotype goes through. Right. So I still had my old prejudice. Prejudices even as an atheist. Right. So I, I start watching and I find the conversation to be extraordinarily engaging and fascinating. And his life story is just great. And I'm falling in love with this guy, and I'm just like this. I like this guy so much. And then I remember the second episode. It's like he starts talking about the Book of Mormon. And here I have a Pentecostal defending the Book of Mormon to John de Litton. Kind of like, well, wait, wait, John, it's not. Just don't throw the baby out of the bathwater. There's some value in the Book of Mormon type kind of thing. I'm just like, okay, so this is kind of cool, right? And then I'm like, we get to the third episode, and that's when I say, that's when you had church service. You and Chris Thomas had church service. And what do you mean by that? It means that I think that Chris was there to minister to you. And. But I. I would realize later that he was ministering to me as well. So I. I hear what he had to say. And. And I just remember watching the episode. I just. It was for the first time where I thought, that's a type of Christian and Christianity that I think I might be able to get back to or would consider. And so that episode really, really touched me and really started pushing me back. Back to Jesus. So thank you, Josh. Thank you so much for having him on, because it. It really brought me back. It brought me back.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:17] Man, that's so recent. 2020.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:20] I mean, this is what makes this so wild is that think of how much of a whirlwind this is. You know, this is a very short period of time where all this has happened.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] So two years ago, you still don't know a Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:33] Year and a half ago.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] And you're an atheist. Agnostic.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] And then you see an interview two years ago.

Steven Pynakker [01:31:39] Yeah. And then that starts pushing me. Okay. I think I can. I can work with this.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] So what'd you do?

Steven Pynakker [01:31:48] It just planted a seed in me. Right. So then I just remember Covid Night Covet starts, and I live in a Christian community, and I'm sitting at the pool, and I'm hearing what state this is in.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:01] Florida.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [01:32:03] And I'm hearing these Christians talking, and it's just the start of COVID and all of a sudden, all these Christian. These people are talking about, like, qanon and weird conspiracy theories and human trafficking. Not. Not like the real human trafficking, but this kind of fantasy human trafficking.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] Yes.

Steven Pynakker [01:32:28] Narrative.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:32:31] And I'm just like, what is going on here? Like, I was shocked. And. And I thought, wait a second, here this doesn't make sense. Just like 9-11- happened and my depression got lifted, COVID 19 hit and I was at peace. It was a similar kind of thing, but this one, I was more really at peace. And I just recognize that the Bible tells us that Christians are supposed to have a peace that surpasseth all understanding, right? So I'm sitting here hearing all this fear and all this conspiracy talk and I said, theologically I should be the one that's afraid. Why do I have a peace that surpasses all understanding? So it was almost like I had this realization that. These other Christians were the ones that really needed Jesus in one sense and that I had something that I could offer them. It's like I for like 20 years left the village Christianity and I'm walking back towards it and I get to the village and the village is on fire. And so in one sense I'm kind of glad I walked away because what Christianity had become in this 20 year old period, it became something I didn't recognize anymore. So then my heart melts for these people because I recognize they've been lied to. They don't have the tools to be able to cope with this world and with something like Covid. They weren't. Those tools were taken away from them because they were promised so many things from the pulpit. One of them being, don't worry, you'll be fine, you'll be raptured away. Well, here we have an apocalypse, a mini apocalypse that we're in, right? And they're still here. And these pastors told them they'd be flying away. So they're trying to then negotiate all this. And you also have to keep in mind too that most Christians growing up really believe that like I told if you went back in time and told somebody that we'd be here in the year 2020, they'd say, you're of the devil, you're spreading lies. There's no way we'll be here in the year 2020. So we also have this issue where all the formulas of when Jesus was supposed to return, all those dates had expired. So now you have these Christians that are kind of like just grasping for answers of why, trying to figure out what's going on. You know, they latched out, latched onto the blood moons in 2015 and all these different prophecies that are going on and they're just kind and they totally forget about what this one prophet said and then they go move on to the next one. I mean, as an outsider and as a, as a Critical thinker. I'm like, don't you see what's going on here? You know, you're, you're just helping.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:30] Jesus is not coming.

Steven Pynakker [01:35:31] Yeah, yeah. I would say he ain't coming anytime soon in my mind. I mean, I think, Yeah, I think it's, it's. And I remember Even in the 1990s telling somebody that the period 2020 to 2030, I told a few people this will be called the second great disappointment, because once you get past this period of time, the entire dispensationalist end time scenario, which is pretty dominant within certain sectors of evangelicalism, the entire edifice collapse collapses at that point. And so the being the great disappointment, most Christians by now would have thought we would have been in the second or third decade of the millennium. We should not be here. So now that is going to force the hand of Christianity, American Christianity in particular. They're going to have to make some major theological adjustments over the next 20 to 30 years because a lot of the stuff that they were told was going to happen hasn't happened. And it's, it's almost like the Jehovah's Witnesses, it's gotten to be a joke, you know, that you can't take them seriously. And how can you take a lot of these end time people seriously within the evangelical world? Because basically they did a kind of a Jehovah's Witness thing, and so they have no credibility in my mind.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] Don't forget the preppers in Mormonism. Yeah, we've got our preppers too.

Steven Pynakker [01:36:45] Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:46] The reason why I'm laughing is that just thinking that our church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but we've been in the latter days since, since 1830 and not no Jesus. No Jesus yet.

Steven Pynakker [01:37:02] Yeah, yeah. And these, these are serious challenges to American evangelical Christianity, and it's a serious challenge to Mormonism. So we're, we're kind of all in the same boat.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] Yeah. Where are you, Jesus? When are you coming? I'm kidding.

Steven Pynakker [01:37:18] I know.

John Dehlin [01:37:21] Okay, so you're, you're feeling like Christianity

Steven Pynakker [01:37:25] is on fire and not in, in the baptism of the Holy Spirit on fire.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] But you don't, you don't. It doesn't sound like you turn to save Christianity. It turns like you turn to Mormonism. So how does that happen?

Steven Pynakker [01:37:39] Well, I just. So none of this makes sense. Right. So that's why I think God might be part of it. Like, why aren't I doing something else rather than this? And I think That I just. I really don't know where this goes. And the Lord told me earlier, I said, don't make any plans. Don't worry about what you're going to say, because you're going to say things you didn't. And they're going to hear you say things you didn't even say.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] Okay, wait. In your mind, the Lord is you telling. Just a couple years ago, the Lord starts talking.

Steven Pynakker [01:38:05] Started, yeah, just. And then. It's not like an audible voice or anything like it.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] What's he saying?

Steven Pynakker [01:38:09] Well, he shows me things and he tells me things. He gives me advice. Just a few words of advice that he gave me early on in the process. He really hasn't said anything to me. Just like, I just got a few. Like, okay. When I returned, it was like he was waiting there. And he said, okay, are you through with all this? I'm like, yeah. He said, you ready to go? I'm like, okay. Boom. Then this whole thing takes off.

John Dehlin [01:38:30] Meaning what?

Steven Pynakker [01:38:30] That next thing you know, I'm my channel. This little guy looks like a hostage video when he does his book review. He's got poor production values, and he's like, so you start a channel called Mormon Book Reviews.

John Dehlin [01:38:44] And the idea is, history was what?

Steven Pynakker [01:38:46] To review the books of my collection. I thought, well, I'm gonna start reviewing these books, you know, And. And I remember even saying, maybe I'll even get some authors on, you know, I don't know. I'm gonna see what happens. And never in a million years would. I would think within months. I mean, within weeks, in a very short period of time. I'm talking to, like, all the people's books that I bought. I got their books in my bookshelf, and now I'm booking them to come on my program. And I did not expect that. And then I go, Rick Bennett forces my hand, twists my arm, tells me, you got to go to Mormon History Association. Okay, Rick, I'll go to Mormon History Association. And of course, that's when I land Bushmen, and that's where I land a few other people. And then I make all these connections with people, and it's like. Then I start talking.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] I just have to say, I remember this is when Rick and I did that interview. We haven't released. I know right around that time, you're just starting up and you, like, message me. It's like, John, Rick and I mentioned you on one of my episodes.

Steven Pynakker [01:39:45] Who is this guy?

John Dehlin [01:39:46] And what. You know what I mean? And you're, like, all excited that, like, you wanted me to know we had talked to. And I was like, do these people hate me? Do they like me? Who are these people? Why are they talking about me? You know what I mean?

Steven Pynakker [01:39:57] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] I remember those early.

Steven Pynakker [01:39:59] Oh, yeah. Well, it was so exciting because my very first interview was of Rick Bennett, and it was the day that you. That Rick interviewed you.

John Dehlin [01:40:07] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:08] And so.

John Dehlin [01:40:09] Which we may release someday, but we haven't released yet.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:11] Okay, Rick, just so you know, I'm working on it. Maybe we can get the first two hours.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:15] So part of it is my fault.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] Fault. It's all Gerardo's fault.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:18] It's all right. I can confirm that.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I was worried that I came off too angry, and it was during a time where we were under attack. And then I showed it to Gerardo, and Gerardo wasn't sure it would be constructive.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:31] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:40:32] Yeah. Well, can you imagine, though? Here I am, my favorite podcasters. I did a joint production with Rick Bennett, and then I get the inside baseball of. He's doing this interview of him, and then I'm talking to. I'm talking to John de Lin on. Chatting with him on Reddit. And then the next morning, I wake up, and I have 20 friends on Facebook, and Sandra Tanner makes a friend request. I'm like, what is going on here? You know, like, I'm talking to, like, you know, royalty in my mind. You know, Mormon royalty and big names. And I'm just like, this is crazy. And then even just, like. I mean, think how, like, folks, none of you knew about this interview. Like, I'm one of the few people that knew about this interview. So then, like, one of the first people Rick calls to say that John doesn't. John doesn't want me to air this thing, or he's not gonna let it go. Like, all of a sudden, I'm in between. I'm like, I got my podcaster buddy talking about my other podcaster guy that I think the world of. I'm like, I'm right in the middle

John Dehlin [01:41:32] of all of it.

Steven Pynakker [01:41:34] I was just. I couldn't find. This is, like, maybe a few weeks into it, and I'm already, like, in the middle of the drama, you know, the.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] This.

Steven Pynakker [01:41:41] This drama that I'm in. Like, man, I'm an active participant in this whole thing. So it was kind of a wild time.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] Yeah. And since then, you've interviewed. You know, I started really paying attention when you started getting interviews that I can't get. So you're interviewing Richard Bushman I'm like, oh, man, that sucks. And then you're interviewing Robin Jensen of the Joseph Smith Papers Project, who I was friends with years ago, but, like, he won't. He won't come on anymore. And I'm just like, curse you, Steven Pinegar. You can get people. I can't.

Steven Pynakker [01:42:11] You know, I know it's pretty wild, dude, but.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] But I'm not. I'm not envious. I'm. I'm grateful. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:18] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:42:19] Yeah. I mean, I'm glad somebody.

John Dehlin [01:42:21] I'm glad they're talking to somebody.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:22] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:42:22] Yeah. I mean, I think we all actually play a role in documenting the story.

John Dehlin [01:42:26] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:42:27] This is an ongoing story that's unfolding, and it's a conversation that's unfolding. And I have a way of doing things that's different than you. Rick has a way of doing things. And we all are making contributions and allowing voices to be heard and stories to be told. And I think the unique thing that I bring to the table is that I, being an outsider, maybe can formulate and ask questions and give observations that others who are in the bubble may not be able to see or observe. So I think that, you know, I've been able to add to the conversation in a very unique way. And I'm very grateful, very grateful to the church. You know, I'm very grateful. Grateful for the access you've given me to church historian department, and I'm grateful to BYU for. For having. Allowing professors from there to come on. And so, you know, this is just, like, really a cool thing. And, yeah, I mean, I'm part of this community now. And I'm talking to the goat right here, the big. The big shooter here. I'm sitting across from and I'm having this conversation, and it feels perfectly natural. Like. Like when you say, what's it like to hear from God? John, I told you, I. God showed me. I had this image of me doing this, so it's a fulfillment of prophecy.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] You did. You prophesied that you would be on Mormon stories. When I met with you and Chris Thomas for lunch.

Steven Pynakker [01:43:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] You're like, God told me I'm coming on Mormon stories. That's like, oh, did he?

Guest 6 [01:43:50] Yep.

Steven Pynakker [01:43:51] Well, if Heavenly Father said that you're going to be on Mormon stories, then I guess you'll be on Mormon stories. Yeah, you said. I thought it was a great line.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] And I love this. I love there being an ecosystem. Like, I Wish There were 20 Mormon theme podcasts, because, like, just with respect to Rick Bennett, you know, like, I watched His Shannon Flynn interviews to prepare for the Mark Hoffman stuff. And I got to interview Shannon Flynn eventually. And I watched your stuff with Thomas Murphy to help get ready for Rod Meldrum. And I watched listen to Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon talk about Book of Abraham to help Dan Vogel to help or Ritter prepare for Robert Rittner and Gerardo.

Guest 6 [01:44:31] You.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] You helped turn me on to Rick Bennett, and that helped us get what Shannon called Almontez or who did Harris. Matt Harris. Yeah, Matt Harris.

Steven Pynakker [01:44:40] And Rick discovered. He found Matt Harris. He brought him into the fully. And I've had Matt Harris on. Thanks. You know, so.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:47] Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:44:48] You know, yeah. So it's like we're bringing. We're, you know, and we're bringing other voices in. I'm. I'm trying to bring in undertold stories, people you haven't heard of. I've brought people, Brought books to people's attention, brought scholars to people's attention that nobody's ever heard of that are being taken seriously now by other scholars. You know, I mean, that's the funny thing I tell people, oh, we might only get a couple hundred views, but Dan Vogel is probably going to watch it. Tom Murphy's going to probably watch you. I mean, I have some of the top minds and academics in Mormonism that are regular viewers of my program because I. And I know why. Because I hear from them or they comment on my videos, you know, and so I know that I'm. That the people are paying very close attention to who I'm having on and the content of my podcast.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] And you play a really important role now, Steven. That's why I dedicated two days to you, because some would say that a lot of those scholars don't come on Mormon stories because I got too negative. But the truth is, I got negative once the scholars stopped being willing to come on Mormon stories. And for me, one of the main reasons they stopped being willing to come on Mormon stories is because I got excommunicated. And as soon as that happened, people who want to be friends with the church can't come on Mormon stories. And. But that's a loss to the overall discourse. But. But faithful, you know, the Mormon faithful podcast, they won't ask the hard questions.

Steven Pynakker [01:46:08] Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:09] But they won't come on Mormon stories. So you can ask the hard questions.

Steven Pynakker [01:46:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] But in a way that isn't, for some reason, doesn't elicit fear, you know, because you're a nice guy and you're polite and you're diplomatic about it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:21] And an outsider.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] Yeah, and an outsider that they want to curry favor with. Right. Yeah.

Steven Pynakker [01:46:27] I mean, it's pretty remarkable. Not. I mean, I still haven't had somebody turn me down. That's unheard of. Right. And have. Like, even on Reddit. 95 of the comments on Reddit are positive. Though that probably won't last much longer now that I've been out here. But. But the general feedback that I've been getting even online has been extraordinarily positive from people. So I really feel like I'm performing some kind of service and of benefit to evangelicals and to true blue Mormons, to progressive Mormons and all the other representatives, all the representations of the restoration, like I say, all the voices of the restoration will be heard on Mormon book reviews.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] I should tell you, Radio Free Mormon texted me earlier today and said, oh, you may tell. Make sure and tell Steven Pinecker that I will come on Mormon book reviews, that he hasn't been ignoring you on purpose.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] He's just been busy.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:20] Good. Looking forward to it.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] Radio Free RFM's coming.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:23] Some people tell me that I actually have a better sense of humor than you. I don't know, but that's what I'm hearing.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] No, you just blew it. Now he won't be. That's the worst thing you could ever say.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:33] I'm actually funnier than rfm. No, that can't be possible.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] Calling dumb. Call him ugly. Don't say you're funnier than radio. Now them. Them's fighting words.

Steven Pynakker [01:47:43] Good. Hey, that should make for good interview, man. So, yeah, cool, thanks. Thanks. Appreciate that.

Steven's Sense of Mission and Current Beliefs

John Dehlin [01:47:50] All right, so how do you describe what you think God is wanting you to do for Mormonism?

Steven Pynakker [01:47:57] H. Well, like I said, the Lord told me not to make any plans. And when I say that, I'm like, I told you before, I'm a type A personality, right? And I. And I still have. That's still part of me. And part of being a type A is that you want to be in control everything, plan everything out. Just be totally invalid in all facets, right? And plan everything out. Look, where am I going to be six months from now? What is six months from now? What does a year look from now? What are my goals? All these things, you know, all the stuff you're supposed to do, right. To be successful. And the Lord told me, don't make any plans. And that. That really freed me up because it was almost like he says, I'll do the planning for you. Like, okay. And he has been. He's been doing the planning for me, I literally have no idea what episodes are going to be airing next week or the week after that. I have no idea who I'll be interviewing a week or two from now. But I know I'm going to have a top scholar or a very interesting person that's going to be on in the next two or three weeks. I don't know who they are, but I just, I don't even worry, like, it might be a Tuesday. And I'm like, man, what am I going to do? Who am I going to do for Friday? And next thing you know, I'm talking to somebody and I got a great interview on a Friday night. So I don't. I don't even plan things out even more, much more than a few days out. And it just seems to work for me. It's been a very liberating experience. So I really feel that on some level, God has to be playing a role on this. And when I say that, I have Christians telling me that the ones that know and kind of understand what I'm doing, but I also have other people within the restoration all saying the same thing, that what you're doing couldn't be done unless God's hand was on it. Now that's what they're telling me.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] You're a man of destiny.

Steven Pynakker [01:49:40] I don't know. The Lord said, make no plans. Six months from now, I may not be doing this, and I'll be. And I'd be content if the Lord just wants me to do this for a season. And says, steve, now it's time to move on. I say, okay, Lord, I'll move on. I mean, don't trust me. I want to keep doing this for a very, very long time. But I'm also open to the leaning of the Lord and where he wants me to go. And so I just feel led of the Lord to do this. But I also feel like I'm liberated to the idea that I don't have to make any plans and he's going to make them for me.

John Dehlin [01:50:10] Going back to your epistemology problem with, with Moroni 10:4 and feelings being truth.

Steven Pynakker [01:50:16] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:50:17] How do you, how do you distinguish between just the thoughts in your head and you interpreting God's communication, you discerning God's communication to you. How do you, you know, you're saying, I don't want to read. I want, I want. I don't want to accept Moroni's challenge because that's flawed epistemology. And yet somehow you feel like you feel certain that God's communicating with you. How does that work?

Steven Pynakker [01:50:44] You know, it partly is because I. Before I was an atheist, I was a believer who talked with God. And when I was really connected with him, it was on a very personal level. And when I was really in tune with him, I would have similar success with what I'm having now, where doors would open up for me and things would just open up. So once I hopped back on Christianity, it was almost like he was waiting for me there to start talking again. And so I just started talking to him. Not in the same way. I'll never have the relationship with God that I had when I was younger.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] What?

Steven Pynakker [01:51:23] Yeah, because it was much more intimate, much more personal. When you don't quit talking to him for 20 years and then you come back, it's. It's a different type of conversation. And so I don't approach him the way that I did before.

John Dehlin [01:51:36] Because he's not as communicative to you?

Steven Pynakker [01:51:40] No, I just. I just kind of feel like once I really rejected him and didn't believe in him. I now have a different view. I view things differently.

John Dehlin [01:51:51] Do you think he's pulled away?

Steven Pynakker [01:51:53] No, I think he was there all along. I think the whole point of this exercise is that all this time I thought I had left him and turned away. It was almost like he was there the whole time while I turned his back on him. He was there along with me during this entire journey. And that what didn't make sense at the time now starts to make more sense because in some sense, God's hand was involved in this whole process. Now, now me studying Mormonism makes much more sense to me because it didn't make any sense why I would have been doing it. But now, because I threw myself in it. And even though I didn't believe in God, I think God still had a role and then a hand in making it happen. Right? So that's just kind of how I see it. Look. And folks, look, the old Steven Pinecker, if he's watching this, I mean, I would be punching holes through everything I just said, right? So. So I. I acknowledge that atheist. I acknowledge that if I got into it, I would do a better job arguing as an atheist than as a Christian. I. I could win that, but do better winning those arguments than as a Christian. So I recognize atheists. You can punch a lot of holes in what I'm saying, and I respect that. If you want to do that, that's fine.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] But you can tell the difference between God's voice and the thoughts in your head. How?

Steven Pynakker [01:53:10] Because it's almost like you have this thought process where I'm just thinking like, you know, about having dinner or all these things or just having a conversation with you or whatever. And then now the Lord might just maybe show me a glimpse of something that I wasn't like in, I wasn't trying to see. It just kind of happened. And then maybe the Lord will just. Like I said, he just said a few words to me early on in the process. He really hasn't said anything to me since. He just kind of said, okay, here's just a few things. Follow these things. Don't worry about what you're going to say because they're going to hear things you didn't hear before that you didn't even say. So in other words, he released me from the burden of trying to get all the facts right or the doctrine right or any theology that just, just, just open your mouth, say things, and I'll direct where it's going to go. So that, that was one, and it was seen to be really good advice that he gave me because it seems to be working for me. And then the other about not making plans. So for me, the reason why I think that it's God is because what he, what these words of advice and what he promised me has come true. It's, it's been confirmed to me, right? So once I have a confirmation, then I have a sense that this must be something from the Lord because it's, he's confirming something that I wouldn't have been able to predict on my own or I wouldn't have given my advice. This type A personality is not going to go and say, don't make any plans.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:31] So basically you're saying by, by the results or the fruits of what you test, you're knowing if it's coming from God. So if good outcomes are coming out of whatever you felt directed to do, then you believe that that must have been from God.

Steven Pynakker [01:54:54] I mean, I. Look as an atheist, I would literally be foaming at the mouth right now.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:58] I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to me. I'm just saying that's how I'm just

Steven Pynakker [01:55:02] trying to, I guess, I guess what, that's kind of what I'm saying. But I, I, I, I, I do also acknowledge the weaknesses in, in that position as well. I'm saying I'm not telling you you got to become a Christian, you got to believe in Jesus or you got to do what I'm doing. I'm Just saying this is what works for me.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] Well, I'm just gonna tell you, like, when I. It's 2005 and I'm trying to figure out how to make a difference in the space, and I'm running or walking or whatever, and it's just like, it comes to me. It's like, you need to start a podcast.

Steven Pynakker [01:55:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:32] I'm like, what? You know, and. And then it's like, I don't know how. I don't even know, you know, but. But I absolutely felt like I needed to do that. And then it's like, I guess I have to buy a mic, you know, and you buy a mic and you. You learn how to edit software, and then you, like, then you're about to publish your first episode and you're just like, like, do I public? Do I publish? Like, really? And. And then you publish it, and then like, Richard Bushman comes on, and then like, Michael Quinn comes on, and all of a sudden a gazillion people are reaching out, and I. I just. I could. I could say I had almost an identical experience.

Steven Pynakker [01:56:08] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:56:09] And at the time, I was still a progressive Mormon, so I would have thought it's God.

Steven Pynakker [01:56:13] Right.

John Dehlin [01:56:13] Kind of in quotes, meaning power, energy, or destiny or something. And I'm just telling you, I completely relate to what you're saying.

Steven Pynakker [01:56:23] I. Our. Our origin stories sound very similar, don't they?

John Dehlin [01:56:26] Yep.

Steven Pynakker [01:56:27] And so I think it just should both give us pause, give us all pause, that, you know, maybe this is God's hand. He's using you, he's using me, he's using all of us in this room. And. And he's using your podcast to bring me back to Christ. Right. He's. He's the Lord. The Lord will use whatever vessel is available to him. And I also think that you're open to being used because you have what I call a pastor's heart. You want to help people, so in one sense, you want to do good for people. And so I think God uses that, you know, and so I think the Lord. It was a last minute thing. When you're doing that interview with Christopher Thomas, like, you weren't planning on doing it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:14] Right.

Steven Pynakker [01:57:14] Well, God said, make no plans. Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:16] He's like, I'm in town, John. And something had fallen through, I believe. And he's like, oh, I'm in town. I'm like, all right, come on. Bye. You know.

Steven Pynakker [01:57:22] Right. So it wasn't planned that changed your life? Changed my life, Changed my life. That was the catalyst right there. And so I Look at. I. I have a story. I didn't really. I didn't know that story about you, about that. But doesn't it sound very. I mean, isn't that interesting that that happened to both of us and that it kind of shows that maybe everything was all leading to us sitting down and having this conversation? Is that. Is that something you're open to as a possibility?

John Dehlin [01:57:50] Yeah. And I have tingling going through my spinal cord right now. Like, absolutely.

Steven Pynakker [01:57:54] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] I'm not trying to say anything about that other than, like, that's what my body is experiencing. But. But. But, like, I also relate to this idea that it. Because, like, you. You do a couple episodes and people start emailing you. And like, now in 2022, people are like, john makes too much money or, you know, blah, blah, blah, Thrive and attack. You know, whatever. All the attacks that come now. But, like, back in 2005, the idea that, like, the podcast would grow, the idea that I would have a lot of listeners, the idea that. That it would become really significant, the idea that I would be written up in the New York Times or be on Good Morning America or like. Like, be an influence on positive change, let alone the fact that someday I'd be able to get a PhD, but then also not just support myself and my family, but then hire other people and then have, like, an organization. Like, I would have never envisioned that. Never. But you. You. You just put one foot in front of the other, and it grows. And so I can really relate to this idea that, like, I followed the voice and I just put one foot in front of the other, and it grew in ways I would have never thought possible. I would have. That. I'd have Jen here and Gerardo and you and a studio and four camera setup with lighting with a hundred thousand followers and listeners. Like, it's a miracle.

Steven Pynakker [01:59:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] I don't know how else to describe it.

Steven Pynakker [01:59:27] I think so, John. I honestly believe that. I mean, I just. I really. I don't doubt for a minute that in the most nuanced way, because I'm still. I still. You know, I still think like a Calvinist or an atheist sometimes. But I really think that there's something to this. I really think that God brought us here together. I think God planned it, timed it. He has. He's. He's. He's behind this endeavor. And I think that just be open to maybe hearing another voice again soon.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] What do you think, Gerardo? Is God behind this?

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:01] I like it. I like it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:02] You buy it?

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:04] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:00:05] Right now, this is weird to hear us talking this way.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:09] No, no, no.

Steven Pynakker [02:00:10] I really respect.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:11] I. I love Christians. Like, I respect Sandra Tanner so much for her beliefs. And.

John Dehlin [02:00:16] Me too.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:19] But, dude, even with you, like, you're, like, you're a closet gay, you know, Mormon at BYU Idaho, and you're. You're emailing me saying, john, I have a boyfriend and I'm at BYU Idaho. You know what I mean? Like, and then you. You and Zach come to the retreat and I would have never guessed. Would you have ever guessed you'd be not only, like, up upping the game of Mormon stories, but eventually co hosting episodes?

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:48] Yeah, I would never guess that. Huh? No, I would never guess that. I was a big fan. Fine boy like Steven.

John Dehlin [02:00:55] It's kind of cool, right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:56] How about you, Jen? Would you ever guess you'd be here?

Guest 6 [02:00:59] No. No. That's for sure.

John Dehlin [02:01:05] Well, what do you think about this kind of talk about divine or, you know, God or whatever?

Guest 6 [02:01:10] Yeah, I. I believe in a divine. I believe in God. I had a really hard time. Gosh, I wasn't gonna cry on this one, John.

John Dehlin [02:01:23] That's your brand. That's your trademark.

Guest 6 [02:01:27] Yeah. Because it was really hard for me deconstructing because I felt so I read the Book of Mormon and I. I was all. Which I what. What I called prideful. I was like, I don't need an answer, Heavenly Father, it's fine. I just know it's true. I don't need to do the little pray and get an answer. And so then I started feeling guilty. And so I went and prayed and I said, I just want people to, like, see the light in my eyes and know that I know it's true. And then a friend knocked on my door, went to the door, opened the door. It's my best friend from high school. She never stops by, but happened to stop by just for a second because she was on her way down south, and she's like, hi. It's okay. Give me a hug. And she's like, I just wanted to stop by really quick. I have to go already. And she walks halfway down the steps, and she turns around and she's like, there's just this light in your eyes. And then she. She turns around and leaves. And it's the exact words that I just said in my prayer. And then when this whole faith crisis happened, and I just kept thinking, I'm like, what was that? Like, what was that? What was that? That I felt, what was that? That she would say the same words to me and it Was it. It's was really hard for me to like. Because I felt like that was a connection with God somehow, and it was really hurting my heart and. Because I couldn't see how that would be connected somehow. And so then I was. This whole faith crisis happened. I went to the retreat with John last November, and then I. We connected with doing events that way. And then I was helping at a thrive event and I had a table and I was there to, like, help promote, like, doing events again for Mormon stories. And this guy comes up to the table and he's talking to me for a second, and then he starts to walk away and he turns around and he says, there is just a brilliant light in your eyes. And he's like, I came here and people always say to me, when you leave the Mormon church, you lose this light in your eyes. I just want you to know you have that light in your eyes. I see it in you. And like. You know what I mean? And so I just feel like for me, there is something. There is something. There is a God somehow. I like to say God or divine somehow for me that I feel there's a purpose for me to be in this space. Oh, Mormon stories. Whether that's to be here for women as they transition out of the LDS faith or it's just something purposeful for my life at this time, I don't know. I feel divinely here for some reason. And so I feel that's kind of where I am right now. So that was a long story to answer that question, but. But that's where I am right now.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:07] Interesting, isn't it?

John Dehlin [02:05:09] I know we at church. What was your term?

Steven Pynakker [02:05:12] We were having church service.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] Do we just have church?

Steven Pynakker [02:05:14] I think we might have had church service today.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] Yeah. I'm gonna get some hate mail from atheists, some of my atheists and agnostic friends.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:21] I will too, probably.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] Yeah. Look what you've done. You're holding church, Steven.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:27] That's right. This is what was supposed to happen.

John Dehlin [02:05:34] Yeah. Well, I like that your conception of God acknowledges the. Just the. The problem of evil. Because any theology that doesn't acknowledge a problem of evil, if you're going to ever state that there's a miracle ever, any divine intervention, if it isn't accompanied with an acknowledgment of the senseless brutality and tragedy of life, you don't have my attention.

Steven Pynakker [02:05:59] That's right. That's right. Absolutely. I think that the. There's senselessness and things that do not make sense, and that the problem is evil is A real challenge. I acknowledge that, and I grapple with that as well.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] Yeah. Yeah. Fun. Okay, so I guess. I guess can we ask you just some theological questions of how you've reconstructed your belief? Really quick. Quick.

Steven Pynakker [02:06:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:27] How many minutes do you have left?

Steven Pynakker [02:06:28] Oh, I got as much time as we need. I. I don't. Just keep going.

John Dehlin [02:06:32] All right. So, like, what is. What is God for you now?

Steven Pynakker [02:06:36] God is just the. I worship him. I acknowledge him as the creator of the universe.

John Dehlin [02:06:42] Does he have gender for you?

Steven Pynakker [02:06:44] I think that God is a spirit, so I think he has both feminine and masculine aspects. I refer to him as a he only because that's just the traditional con concept of God.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] But for you, God's not gendered.

Steven Pynakker [02:07:00] A spirit to me is not a. Doesn't have a body. So I don't. I don't. I can't attach a gender to a spirit in my mind.

John Dehlin [02:07:08] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [02:07:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:12] Jesus as a historical figure that resurrected. Literally.

Steven Pynakker [02:07:17] Yeah. So, you know, Bart Ehrman will acknowledge that there was a man named Jesus who roamed and was a preacher and a teacher and was proclaiming that there would be a destruction of the temple. This is what he. This is. This is the basic belief that Bart Ehrman believes. So that would be like. That's a. It's a historical fact. We have an apocalyptic preacher, Yeshua, preaching and prophesying that the temple would be destroyed. The scripture tells us that he is God incarnate and that he came here to pay the penalty of sin. And he was a real person. And he. He paid for our sins at Calvary, and he rose from the grave, and he.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] He.

Steven Pynakker [02:08:07] He. He's victorious over death. Death and sin has been defeated, and Christ is victorious.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] So if Jesus is. Is God for you.

Steven Pynakker [02:08:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] Then Jesus doesn't exist. Now, Jesus would. I don't want to say absorbed back into God, but like, no God, Jesus.

Steven Pynakker [02:08:26] Jesus would see. Again, these. For me to try to describe Jesus in the concept of outs within the outside of our realm of understanding is that any words I use are going to fail to describe. So as Christians, we believe that Jesus is at the right hand of the throne of God. Right. So that's where, in one sense, the con, conceptually is where he resides at this time. So he's not reabsorbed. He's there with the Father. But again, these are. These are words that can't even describe who Jesus is and all that. This is just our best understanding of how we would understand Christ within a

John Dehlin [02:09:01] Christian concept, because this is how Mormonism and even The Mormon temple ceremony kind of mocked traditional trinitarian Christianity because is it one but three but one? And you're just saying it doesn't make sense.

Steven Pynakker [02:09:13] I'm saying that I'm not going to describe to you the Trinity because I will probably be describing you to modulism, not trinitarianism, because it's a very complex thing. I will say I can recite the creeds and say that I'm trinitarian, but also say that whether you believe in the Trinity or not, I don't think is a matter of salvation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:34] What would you think of the argument that Mormons like to make that if you don't understand the nature of God and exactly how God is, and you're not able to describe how he, like, operates and how, you know, if, like, you're saying it's too complicated to explain. So basically, to a Mormon, that would mean, like, you don't understand the nature of God or it's his way, it's too hard to have a relationship with someone that you can't understand.

Steven Pynakker [02:10:02] Yeah, well, the answer I have to that is that the concept of God within Mormonism I think is very limiting because now you've put them in a body. I think that the second you try to really try to describe the God and try to give definitions and say, this is who we know God is, you're, you're making God small. So I don't, I think you're doing a disservice. So I would say, I'd rather say there's mystery, there's things I don't understand, but I'm not going to make these all issues of salvation. And if somebody goes and says, I know the nature of God, or I can explain to you who God is, I would be very suspect that a mortal human being could actually describe God.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:49] Yeah, I like that idea because really, I mean, I never thought about it that way, but that the Mormonism, the, the, the God that Mormonism describes is pretty reductive. So when you're thinking about black people, when you're thinking about people in India, when you're, were you thinking about Native Americans? And then you're thinking, well, if God has a body and then we're made on his image, then what. What does God look like? Does he look white?

Steven Pynakker [02:11:20] Does he look black?

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:21] Does he look like a Native American? So you start encountering really problematic theology where, like, you're not able to reconcile a lot of questions where, like, if you have a way more expansive view of God is like, we don't understand it. He's just too big great for us to really understand, but he loves us. You really don't have issues when it comes to transgender people, LGBTQ people, and people of color or other races?

Steven Pynakker [02:11:53] Yeah, Yeah. I think that that's. That's a good point, Harold. I appreciate that. I think it's good. Good observation. Yeah.

Guest 6 [02:11:58] I think that's the same God I believe in. I. I usually just say love.

Steven Pynakker [02:12:03] God is love. That's scriptural.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I just have to throw this in. So there's been this conversation about Heavenly mother, and like, if there's, you know, the. Even. Even Rod Meldrum would say that heavenly father and Heavenly Mother need their bodies so that they can literally parent, create spiritual offspring.

Steven Pynakker [02:12:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] But then the question is, do you need physical anatomy to create spiritual offspring? It makes no sense, but Mormons wouldn't really think that through.

Steven Pynakker [02:12:36] Yeah, yeah, It's. It's.

John Dehlin [02:12:38] Is that a more powerful view of God when it makes, like, almost no sense that you need physical anatomy to make spiritual children?

Steven Pynakker [02:12:46] Yeah. Yeah. And God transcends. Is transcendent. God is outside of our. See, the thing, the Mormon God is that God is more of an organizer of material and not a creator. And he's just kind of a higher species of us. Right. And we're all kind of related to him in one sense too, within the pre. Existence and all this kind of stuff. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:13:12] Makes sense that a. Super. Barely makes sense on a superficial level, but if you. If you scratch a centimeter deep, it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] It all of a sudden makes no sense.

Steven Pynakker [02:13:21] Yeah. I think only a transcendent God that's beyond our comprehension is worthy of our worship.

John Dehlin [02:13:27] Well said. Age of the earth.

Steven Pynakker [02:13:31] Oh, 14 and a half. 14. Oh, the age of the Earth would be what was three and a half, four and a half billion years old? Yeah. The age of the current scientific consensus.

John Dehlin [02:13:39] Okay. Adam and Eve as the first humans.

Steven Pynakker [02:13:43] No, absolutely not. We had. We can. We can trace human lineage. Well, 200, 000 years ago. So we know that humans existed. Our. Our ancestors existed for hundreds of thousands of years.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] So no literal Adam and Eve for you, maybe?

Steven Pynakker [02:13:58] I think that I'm still exploring that, actually. There's. There's a guy who has a. A Christian who believes in evolution who came out with a book about Adam and Eve that I want to read and explore what he has to say about that. But I think there's something that can be said that I don't know if they're historical characters. I Part of me is skeptical that they are

John Dehlin [02:14:24] organic evolution.

Steven Pynakker [02:14:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:14:26] What?

Steven Pynakker [02:14:27] Oh, biological evolution. I mean, look, God gave us two. Two places to look for his. His, to look for his direction. He gave us the creat, and he gave us the word and the creation. What science reveals about the creation is God's story. So if science is showing us evolution and all these things, and I. Look, one of the other things I did when I studied atheism, I read everything I could about biology and science and educated myself on what natural selection actually is, what biological evolution it really is, and not a caricature that I was taught in a young earth creationist context. Then I realized, okay, I educated myself in science. I accept science, and I accept that science is describing God's creation. And we need to take that into account and integrate that with our scriptures.

John Dehlin [02:15:20] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:22] Do you believe that Moses was a real prophet who wrote the first book? You skip.

John Dehlin [02:15:27] You skipped the flood. You skipped Noah and the flood.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:30] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] Sorry, no, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:32] No, go ahead.

Steven Pynakker [02:15:35] Yeah, I mean, Noah's flood. I mean, there's floodness in just about every single culture, right? It's. It's like a universal thing which was used by creations to say, oh, look, see, that happened. Well, I think. I think that it just. It's a common. There are certain stories and myths that are common to all of humanity. And reading the Genesis, Genesis Con, I remember even thinking, okay, is that really feasible that that could happen? Like, this sounds more like. Like a legend, like a. Like a myth, like a myth, than. Than real literal history. So I think that, you know, we just have to understand that the scripture can also be metaphorical. It doesn't have to all be literal. I think that there are places where it's obviously poetic and metaphorical, and I think that. But the idea of taking that story literally, I just. It's not a feasible thing. And the evidence doesn't. Back up. Back it up.

John Dehlin [02:16:33] And, Gerardo, I don't want to interrupt your story, and I know you got to go, but I think your question about Moses applies to Abraham, too. The lights. Even Jews, Right? Even Jews sometimes wonder if. If Abraham and Moses actually existed as humans. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:47] And, Herod, you're taking off. Thanks for joining us today. I'm going to say bye to Gerardo, and you're awesome. Thanks for. Yeah, we'll miss you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:54] Thank you. Thank you. Steven. This was out. This was awesome.

Steven Pynakker [02:16:57] Yeah, thanks. You're awesome. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate doing a real solid coming out and doing this.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] All right, see you, brother. Okay, so, yeah, Abraham and Moses as

Steven Pynakker [02:17:08] real people, as, you know, as, as, as this, the story, the narrative unfolds, I think we start entering into the realm of real history. So I, I tend to think that there are, that there was probably. Yeah. Moses and Abraham. I think that I, I can, I don't see, I don't see why everything has to be a myth if it's ancient. I think that there could be some true stories that have been passed along that, that, that, that, that could attest to real people existing. Yeah. So I, I wouldn't necessarily say that they're mythical people.

John Dehlin [02:17:39] I mean, this is kind of like really interesting territory where you're like saying, okay, Genesis and, and Noah and okay, Adam and Eve, not so much. But then at some point it becomes real.

Steven Pynakker [02:17:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Like some would say, like a lot of Christians would say that's a weak foundation. Well, you're basically denying a bunch of it, the foundation of it. And then all of a sudden it becomes historical.

Steven Pynakker [02:18:02] Yeah. I think hyper literalist people, people that, you know that, that it all has to be true for their worldview, the work are going to be. Find it problematic. But I just think that I can look at the scriptures. I see. I'm more of a New Testament guy. Right. So I think that's where the real core message is. But I do think that when I look at Middle Eastern literature and other things, I can see parallels that parallel creation myths and stories that you could tell were being borrowed from to kind of create a narrative of how we got here to tell a story. So I just think that they were just adopting a typical Middle Eastern mythos to start, to start the whole thing off. But then it does engage and encounter real history at some point in real people. Now some people will say maybe it's King David is the first real person. You know, that's just a matter of where you're at. But I don't. Those aren't the things that make me a Christian. These are just the opinions that I have. Right. So these aren't. Whether there was a flood or not is not something that would be a deal breaker for my faith. But I just giving you my opinions on these things, you know where I'm at on these things. And it's in flux. I'm in flux on some of this stuff too.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] And there's a rich Christian tradition that's like you're taking the Bible literally. What Nobody. Bible was never meant to be taken literally. Like we have to Acknowledge that Mormons don't have any generally understanding of any of this history. But there's a whole block of Christians for hundreds of years that are like, the Bible is never meant to be taken literally.

Steven Pynakker [02:19:33] Right. Including Catholicism, you know, the biggest branch of Christianity will tell you that a lot of these stories are not. You know, there's a mythos to some of this stuff as well.

John Dehlin [02:19:43] So then the, the inerrant Bible.

Steven Pynakker [02:19:47] I think all I would say about the Bible is I believe that it's the word of God, but it has the fingerprints of man all over it. So it's directed by the hand of God, but the fingerprints of man are all over it. That's, that's, that's how I see it.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] So all that genocide and barbarism in the Old Testament, what do you make of that?

Steven Pynakker [02:20:03] You know, as an atheist, I used to hang out with an Orthodox Jew and we would just sit and talk theology for hours on end. And I liked him. He's a cool guy. And one day I asked him, I said, if you had the tools that the Nazis used at Auschwitz, the gas chambers and everything like that, if the Jews had access to that equipment when they were told by God to settle the Holy Land, would they have used it? And he said, of course. Of course we would have used it. That's, that's, that's not cool. Right? That's not. That. That to me is like. And this is not a strike against Judaism, but I'm just saying there's some problematical stuff in the Old Testament that, that bothers me. And I, I don't. There are in. I am sorry, folks, but the, there are the Old Testament and verses do endorse slavery. You know, I'm saying. So I acknowledge all the dark things in the Old Testament that I'm not going to try to paper over and pretend they're not there.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] So those could have been the fingerprints of man, you're saying?

Steven Pynakker [02:21:03] Yeah, I think that when I read, like, there's certain things that it's obviously like when you're reading levitical texts, they're writing down laws. How do you say that's actually scripture? Right. It just doesn't make sense to me. You know, that they're writing. It's like they're writing legislation. And that's.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:18] That.

Steven Pynakker [02:21:18] That's supposed to be the word of God. I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that.

John Dehlin [02:21:22] So when God says kill men, women, children and animals in the Old Testament,

Steven Pynakker [02:21:29] that's a tough one, dude. Right? Is that the Same God? I don't know. I mean, I have issues with God, and that's one of the things. As an atheist, you know, I would say, what the hell, God? Why would you command such a thing like that? So I still think, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that one. Is it the same God? I mean, obviously most Christians are taught that it is, but are these. Are they writing literature to justify what they did and said they were doing it? God's name might be a better, better idea of how that we could approach that.

John Dehlin [02:22:01] But you're not. You seem to be not sure about that.

Steven Pynakker [02:22:03] Well, I'm, like I said, I'm still in flux on some of that stuff, but I don't. I don't. I'm just telling you, I would not use a lot of the Old Testament as a way to live one's life. I would never in a million years follow a God that was. Would tell me to kill women and children.

John Dehlin [02:22:16] Yeah. And animals.

Steven Pynakker [02:22:18] And animals across the board.

John Dehlin [02:22:20] Okay. So as far as, let's see, we've already talked about Jesus and so resurrection. All right. I think any question. Oh, yeah. So historical criticism.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:34] You.

John Dehlin [02:22:34] You wanted to at least be able to briefly address Bart Ehrman and, you know, because there's a lot of Mormons that are like, oh, the Bible's just as. Just as fake or just as problematic as the Book of Mormon. I think. I disagree with that. I think at least there is a Jerusalem and there is a holy land.

Steven Pynakker [02:22:51] The Bible is an ancient text. Universally acknowledged. The Bible is an ancient text and is recognized as such. That's a very strong argument in its favor. Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:00] So it's a stretch to say the Book of Mormon and the Bible are equally false or fraudulent, but there are a lot that. That basically dropped the Bible when they dropped the Book of Mormon.

Steven Pynakker [02:23:09] Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] What allows you to keep the Bible given the fact that, you know about Bart Ehrman's work.

Steven Pynakker [02:23:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:14] About historical criticism and the documentary problems.

Steven Pynakker [02:23:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:18] I mean, historicity of the Bible.

Steven Pynakker [02:23:20] You know, I just think that, you know, like, there's almost this mantra. It almost becomes a creed. Everybody knows Matthew didn't write Matthew. Everybody knows Mark didn't write Mark. It's become like a statement of faith. Well, that's not actually entirely accurate. So the idea is they later on attach these names to the gospels that they're anonymously written and we don't have any names. And hundreds of years later or whatever, they're given these names. Right. And so we're going to. The problem I have with that. And I think that there's something to the naming of these scriptures that tell me that there's probably an ancient direct source to a lot of these gospels is that why in the world would you choose Mark and why would you choose Luke as names that you would want to attach to a gospel? Why isn't Peter one of those authors? Right. So that tells me that the fact that Mark and Luke are attached to those books indicates to me that there's probably a very strong tradition that they are indeed the authors of those books. Okay. So I just want to just clear the air on that, that it's not all. Everybody knows. There is a strong school of thought that gives some credence that the fact that those two names are in there tells me that they're obscure, they're not the right kind of people you would attach to a gospel. The fact that they're not Peter or somebody more prominent tells me that they could very well be written by those people that they claim to be written by. That would just be one response I want to give to the people who think that they were all anonymous and we don't know who wrote them. I think an argument can be made that we might have that each community. I was talking to Christopher, Thomas about this the other day. Each community would have a gospel, but to them that's the gospel. So they don't have to attach a name to it, but this is the gospel. And then they have another letter that's also a gospel. So now they have to start differentiating between them. But we have early on these gospels circulating and that these communities were there and this was the gospel. That particular. Like Luke was the gospel, Mark was the gospel. There weren't gospels. And so I just think that there's an argument that can be made that these books were written by these people. That's just one thing I want to say, you know, that just don't accept right off the bat because Bart Ehrman said. Said so that makes it so. There's. There's some legit legitimate scholarship that would indicate that we can actually give some. Attach those names to those gospels.

John Dehlin [02:26:03] Okay, What do you make of. Oh, when. When the Bible says women should stay silent in the church, when the New Testament says that, when Paul, I think, says that, what do you make it? Misogyny in the Bible, There's.

Steven Pynakker [02:26:20] I mean, people have given different theories on that and all that kind of stuff. And some people say it was just that particular congregation was having a particular problem with women and he was Just addressing them. That's one argument. I also say that, look, I believe that we should engage our text and have conversations with them. And part of that conversation that we can have is that we are fellow believers, just like Paul is a fellow believer. We're brothers and sisters in Christ. And if I'm here on earth and I'm having a conversation with a pastor or fellow believer in Christ and they make a statement, I would say, well, I disagree with that. I think we have. I personally think that I can just say sometimes I just disagree with Paul on that. I don't agree with you, Paul. I think women shouldn't be silent, and I don't think we should. When he was writing that, he was not writing. He did not think he was writing scripture. He was writing past, well, some of the pastoral letters, but he was writing letters to particular congregations to. For a particular time in place. The most important audience for these letters are the initial audience. It was written. Those were not written to us. They were written for us. And so then we can grapple with the text that was written. And I can grapple with Paul and say, you know, Paul, I think he got that one wrong.

Same-Sex Relationships, Scripture, and Theology

John Dehlin [02:27:31] You talked before about how even when you were a Christian, you still were able to find ways to feel okay with being gay and being a Christian. Now, as you're, as you're still gay and a Christian, what do you believe God wants his gay and lesbian children to do or not do? Is it a sin in your worldview? Does God consider it a sin for two gay men to be sexually intimate and get married? For two women to be sexually intimate and get married? Is that a sin? In, in your view, in the way you read the Bible and the way you look at God?

Steven Pynakker [02:28:16] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's. Sin is such a hard word. And like, it's an abomination and, you know, terminology. But there are things that are in the Bible that are considered sins, like a bacon double cheeseburger. And that's a sin, you know, within the same context of this condemning same sex, you know, activity in the, in the Levitical chapters. So you have all these condemnations. And this is an abomination. This is an abomination. And we don't. We eat shellfish. We don't follow these rules. And then, and then also Scripture makes it very clear that divorce is wrong. And yet most Christians have the same divorce rate as the world, and yet we let them get remarried. And technically they're committing sin every time they have sex. Right. So to me, we have to have freedom here and also compassion and grace here. So if those people, Christians who are divorced and remarried and having sex are not committing sin, even though the Bible says they are, but most Christians would say they're not, then except for the Catholics, the Catholics would say they're committing sin, then we need to make the same type of accommodation for LGBTQ people. We can't let them live by rules where we're not going to enforce the Bible on them, but we're going to enforce the Bible on them, on the LGBTQ community. This is where we got to grapple with these things and have conversations with the text and then also have conversations with people and hear their stories and see what works for them. I want you to live a life of integrity. I want you to have relationships that are strong and loving and ethical and are both healthy and are something that benefit you and your partner. And so to me, it's, you live your life, you have your relationship with God, you work out with him, how you're going to proceed with your life, how you. How you're going to engage with other people. Some people say they want to remain celibate. That's fine. That's a choice, if you want to make a choice. But I'm never going to impose celibacy on other people. If people want to make a choice for celibacy, I respect that decision. But we have to make accommodations for people who love the Lord, who want to serve him, and also want to love while here on earth. And I don't want to deny people that opportunity to love another human being when we only have one shot here. I don't. I think that's cruel and it's not living the golden rule.

John Dehlin [02:30:48] So do you have an opinion about what God thinks about same sex marriage?

Steven Pynakker [02:30:55] I know that there's very actual, very little overall about homosexuality in the Bible. He seems more concerned about what food we eat than who we sleep with, which is interesting to me. Right. So I just kind of think that God is so transcendent that I think that he's love and I don't really understand Him. But I'm trying to realize that. I do have these scriptures that say these things, but I also have science, his creation. He also gave us, and I got to look and grapple with these things. And if science can tell us that there's a biology about sexuality and all these other things, and I mean, we even understand there's an evil, that if you're a younger brother, if you have older brothers, it increases the Odds that you're going to be gay. I mean, there's just. It's so obvious that there's just certain things that are intrinsic. And so it's obvious if God is the creator, then he made them that way. Then we have to acknowledge that we cannot make that person live a life of celibacy. If they want to fall in love with somebody as a human being, we got to allow people to do that. Even if you have religious beliefs that you don't agree with it, that's fine. But don't pass laws against those people. Let them live their lives too. Let them have the same freedoms that you have in a secular context. But also. And let them also be able to engage God as well and don't get in the way of their relationship with God by throwing. Hitting them over the head with the Bible.

John Dehlin [02:32:29] And just to be clear, I'm not trying to force the issue. You believe God's okay with two men getting married?

Steven Pynakker [02:32:37] I. If I, I don't know if I'll ever get married, but I would certainly hope that I'd have God's approval when I do.

John Dehlin [02:32:44] So you don't definitely believe that he's against it?

Steven Pynakker [02:32:49] You know, I, I think when we talk this way, we're making God small. Right. And we're trying to make him more like us, then we also are kind of making them into this, this or this type kind of person. And I don't think that's how he is. So I think that God's. It's hard for me to say, well, God's okay or God's not okay with something. I think that if God is love, then he's going to be understanding of whatever we. Choices we make. If we're doing something in love and we're doing something with integrity and we're doing things where we're trying to, you know, follow him and have Jesus in our lives. I think God is going to look at the whole package and not. Not just one particular thing that you do.

Guest 6 [02:33:31] So God would be okay? I would say yes.

Steven Pynakker [02:33:35] Yeah, that's. I mean, I think that. I just don't like to put words in God's mouth.

John Dehlin [02:33:39] Right, but you believe in sin?

Steven Pynakker [02:33:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] Believe that the sin exists?

Steven Pynakker [02:33:43] Yeah, yeah. These are, these are tough issues, John. I'm not pretending.

Guest 6 [02:33:46] I don't, I don't believe that is. I don't.

Steven Pynakker [02:33:50] Yeah, I don't. It's a tough, These are tough things. It's hard to say, like whether it's sin. I mean, these are, these are very complicated Things that philosophers and theologians have been grappling with for a long time. I'm just a layperson who just reads a lot of books. Right. And I'm still working, like I said. And just so you know, folks, I have worked out my salvation with fear and trembling. And I respect God and I believe that. I believe in him. And don't. I know there's going to be a lot of you that are going to go after me. But the Lord put this together. He orchestrated this. This is what was supposed to happen.

Guest 6 [02:34:22] Yeah. If you. If you believe that some parts of the Bible were man writing, then I would say the parts of the Bible that feel like love would be from God and the parts of the Bible that don't feel like love would maybe be man. And so for me, I would say this is man calling it sin and not God, because it doesn't sound like love to me.

Steven Pynakker [02:34:53] I kind of hinted to it yesterday when I was kind of giving that apologetic defense that John didn't want me to give, but. And that was how I talked about how when Moses went down and smashed the Ten Commandments. Right. And then God forces him to write him with his own hand. And what I was saying was maybe the Ten Commandments that God gave us was much more grace and love based on. But then Moses goes back up there and he has to write it himself. And he puts in works and law, he puts in man, and he takes the love out and he puts the law in. You know, maybe that's the scenario that we could also contemplate as well.

John Dehlin [02:35:29] It's not that I didn't want you to give it. I wanted you to give it now, which you did. So I'm grateful. Yeah. Okay. So that those are my main Christ, I guess, Randy Bell. And we had kind of a few rounds with Randy Bell because he. And he's a dear friend and I love him. It seems like he was wanting to say that it takes more faith to have an atheist than it does to be Christian and that the evidence is almost overwhelming that there's a God. How do you feel about kind of that. That position that there's just tons of evidence that there's a God.

Closing Messages for Mormons, Ex-Mormons, and Believers

Steven Pynakker [02:36:06] You know, I.

John Dehlin [02:36:07] And I'm not trying to throw Randy under the bus.

Steven Pynakker [02:36:09] No.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] Or put you against Randy. I'm just wondering if you have. If you are aligned with that kind of point of view.

Steven Pynakker [02:36:15] Yeah. So I. Well, we talked about Randy yesterday, and I had mentioned how this is a man that saw evil. He went to the most. He saw wickedness and evil. And that's what his job was. He went to all the worst sites, the. The nightclub shooting in Orlando and Sandy Hook and World Trade center, and he saw evil. And the most obvious question to me that needs to be asked of a man is how the hell do you believe in God? You know, you hear tons of stories about police officers that walk into a crime scene as Christians and they walk out as atheists. How do you look at evil and still believe? I think that's just a fascinating thing about Randy, that he's been exposed to these things, because I don't know if I could. Right, right. So I think that I just look at it this way. There is a problem of evil and I acknowledge it. And so of an atheist looks at all the evidence and looks at all of creation, looks at the scriptures and has a problem with the. Has an issue with the problem of evil as a real problem with Christianity and the Christian God. I understand where you're coming from, and I don't fault you for thinking that maybe there isn't a God. But I also think that, you know, God or that atheism is also kind of a pursuit of truth. And atheism really is birthed modern atheism is birthed out of west, the Western world, Western society, in particular Christianity, and most particular within Protestantism. And so I just want to say that when I look at it like Christopher Hitchens used to say, I am a atheist of the Protestant variety. And, and so I just want to say that I get it, you're grappling with the problem of evil, but essentially atheists are. Have taken. Taken one of the one. One example of maybe taking Protestantism to its. One of its logical extremes. So I just want to say to you, atheists, welcome fellow Protestants to the fold. I consider you a tape, a type of Protestant, and I just want you to continue this journey of truth in pursuing these things. And I completely get why you might have an issue with evil, but keep pursuing because you might be surprised something like what happened to me might happen. And I know you're mocking me and you think I'm full of it, and I understand that too, because I would have been thinking the same thing. But just consider what happened to me. That's all I ask. So Protestant, you're all Protestants just like me.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] Okay, here's how I want to end. I'm going to have you give an extempore. You were an extemporaneous speaker at one point and you did debate, speech and drama. I'm gonna have you develop. Well, is there anything else you want to make sure and tell about your story before we end?

Steven Pynakker [02:38:58] I think, I think my story has been told pretty well today. I'm really grateful for giving me that, this opportunity. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:03] Okay, then I'm gonna. We're gonna end by. I'm gonna ask you to give extemporaneous sermonettes to like, six or seven groups of people.

Steven Pynakker [02:39:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:39:11] I know that probably sounds weird, but go with me here.

Steven Pynakker [02:39:13] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:39:13] Is that all right?

Steven Pynakker [02:39:14] All right.

John Dehlin [02:39:14] Okay. If you were to give a final sermonette to an orthodox believing Mormon, look in the camera, what would you want to tell them?

Steven Pynakker [02:39:23] Jesus loves you and Jesus died for your sins. I know you love Jesus as well. And this is where we can find the commonality that we can have these conversations with each other, that we share. Jesus, you. You and I may have different understandings of him, but I want to tell you that what Jesus did for you at the cross was. Was. He died for your sins. He died for you. He loves you, and he just. I. I just want you to consider contemplating Jesus, making him the Lord and Savior of your life. And still, if you want to be a Mormon, that's fine, because I'm not here to proselytize. But I just want to talk that it's all about the love and grace in Jesus of what he did on the cross and that allow him to operate in your life and don't try to do everything on your own, but allow him to work through you. And I think you'll have some amazing experiences in your life.

John Dehlin [02:40:16] Perfect. That was great. Okay. Mormon church leadership, first presidency, quorum of the 12 general authorities, top church leadership. What would you want to say to them?

Steven Pynakker [02:40:24] First of all, I want to give all of you a hug and tell you that Jesus loves you and I want to honor you because in one sense, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a very most impressive organization. And so I, I what you've built and what you have maintained, you are stewards to something very special. I obviously have offered critiques, but I do it in Christian love. And I reach out my hand in friendship to you. And I just want to say that I'm not here to attack or tear down. I'm just here to have a conversation with you and let you know that there are amazing good things that you do in the world. But I'm going to call you. I will call out the church when I feel it's appropriate, but I'm going to do it in Christian love.

John Dehlin [02:41:11] All right, That's Two down. Okay. A Mormon who is in faith crisis starting to question their beliefs, maybe still believing in parts of it, maybe not just in the thick of the faith crisis struggle.

Steven Pynakker [02:41:29] Call upon the name of the Lord Jesus, help me. Jesus saved me. Jesus, guide me. Just don't throw all of it out. Hold on to Jesus, grab on to him and follow his teachings. Look at the red letters in the Bible. Allow them to direct. Oh, that's right, you guys don't have red letter Bibles. So all the verses in the Bible, many, many versions of the Protestant Bibles have red letter additions, which is just the words of Christ in red.

John Dehlin [02:42:01] Jefferson, the Jeffersonian Bible.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:03] No, no, no, no. That Jefferson took out all the miracles.

John Dehlin [02:42:06] Oh, sorry.

Guest 6 [02:42:06] There.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:07] This is where the words of Jesus are in red.

John Dehlin [02:42:10] Okay.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:10] And so read the words of Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:42:12] What Bible should they get? Because we don't have that.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:14] You know, I think, I mean, I mean, I kind of niv. ESV are good publications. And you know, King James Version is not the worst singing. You know, that's fine too. Read the red words of. Of Christ and just follow the teachings of the Savior.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] Yeah. All right. Okay. So as someone who's left the church, probably atheist or agnostic, maybe a lot of my listeners are in this boat. They've not only left Mormonism, but they probably don't believe in God and Jesus and probably are kind of skeptical about all that. I get and turned off by.

Steven Pynakker [02:42:48] Absolutely get it. Totally get. You been there, done that. Totally understand where you're coming from. You have legitimate arguments that you have that need to be addressed. I would probably lose a debate to all of you because I understand many of the arguments that you make are pretty valid and pretty solid. But I just want to say that we also have to realize that there's a type of atheism that can be just as fundamentalist as literalist Christians. Keep in mind that we are. The reason why we are here is because our ancestors believed if we did not believe in something transcendent and bigger than ourselves, we would not be here. We would not have survived. The human community is deeply spiritual. And don't turn your back on the spiritual nature of who we are. We are more than just animals. We are creations of this universe and we do have the divine spark. And just remember that you have divinity within you because you are created in God's image. And realize that if you didn't have something spiritual in your life and if your ancestors didn't have it, we wouldn't be here.

John Dehlin [02:43:58] That one got you the most Emotional way.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:01] Because I think when I talk about the divine nature of the us being image bearers, that's what I want to get across to people, that we're all, we're all made in the image of

John Dehlin [02:44:09] God, but God's not a human. So what does that mean to. Because Mormons are like, yeah, yeah, God's. That's humanoid, just like me.

Steven Pynakker [02:44:16] Yeah, that's. You're missing the whole point.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] What do you mean?

Steven Pynakker [02:44:19] We are image bearers in that we, we, we are part. We, we are all. We all have the divine spark of life breathed into us that, that we are imaged after him and not a literal sense. So when we talk about the arms of God and well, these are. We're just trying to describe the indescribable. We're just trying to relate it to us. Right. But I'm just trying to say that when we say image, we're talking. We're in the spiritual heirs, where the spiritual children of God, there's, It's not even something that's beyond comprehension that we could even see or think or devise. But when we say image, it's because we have the divine within us. We share and, and that we're all part. Because we're his, his children and his creation, that we, we, we, we. We have a spark of the divine with us, in us. That's kind of a Quaker idea, but having divine spark. But I think there's something to it.

John Dehlin [02:45:15] All right, you're doing great. What would you say to Mormon apologists, either the classical ones or the neo apologists?

Steven Pynakker [02:45:27] Well, I would say that for those of you who are in the 21st century and you're grappling with the postmodern world, and we're grappling with a world that's very quickly changing. I think it's very important that you believe your faith is very important that you want to defend it. And I honor and respect that. But we also have to have integrity to the truth. And it's not about trying to make things fit in what we have to. Wherever the truth leads us, we need to follow and we need to acknowledge it. I think the most important thing you can do, like I try to do, is acknowledge shortcomings and acknowledge arguments that are valid that the other side makes and grapple with them and don't just poo poo them, because that's not. You're not actually having a conversation. You're just doing polemics. So deal with some of the issues that we have trouble with and then, then Be honest with your. With the members of the church. Say this is my argument, but this is also issues that we can have with that. This is what I'm personally grappling with as an apologist. I'm still working it out. I think if you just took a much broader sense of what you're trying to do and then just be honest with people about the facts and don't try to sugarcoat anything or try to make things fit in that don't necessarily fit in and try to create a narrative that makes people feel comfortable. Sometimes we're supposed to also make people feel uncomfortable with the facts and truth. And I think that's a legitimate thing because I think. Think telling the truth should make people feel uncomfortable. And if you're not making people feel uncomfortable, then you're not being truthful.

John Dehlin [02:47:01] This is. I've. I have at least one more question, but this is just an aside. What do we make of the fact that you or Chris Thomas will come on Mormon stories, but, like. But like a Mormon apologist won't? Why? How do we make sense of the fact that Mormon apologists won't talk to me, won't talk to ex Mormons, won't talk, you know? You know?

Steven Pynakker [02:47:21] Yeah, I think. I think it's just. It's too close to home. You know, I think it's. It's because Christopher and I are outsiders. We're. We don't have a dog in this fight. When you're here, you have a dog in this fight. Even the Christians that are here that are actively engaging, like, trying to do the Aaron Shalafelov stuff and all that kind of stuff, they kind of have a dog in this fight. I don't have a dog in this fight. I just want to have engagement. I think that an apologist.

John Dehlin [02:47:45] But they would still see people like me or people that listen to me as children of God. So it's. It's kind of weird, right, that they. It's understandable, but isn't it kind of sad that there's. They care about interfaith dialogue with you.

Steven Pynakker [02:47:59] Right.

John Dehlin [02:48:00] But they don't want any Earth dialogue with people like.

Steven Pynakker [02:48:02] Well, and that's a. That's a real shortcoming. That's something they need to address. I think that they should have the freedom to come on this program and talk with you and debate with you and have open conversations. And I think that. Look, I've been talking to John for two days now. He's not the boogeyman. He's very fair and, you know, talk to the guy, you know, let's continue the dialogue. You know, John sometimes comes across a certain way and you get angry with him and pissed off with him. But, you know, I just say, well, I'm going to sit, let's have lunch. You're the one that offered lunch last time. But let's get together, let's talk, let's break bread, let's have conversations with each other. Let's not just demonize the other person and not give them, Just sit down and have conversations with John and maybe, maybe come on the program. I don't think there's any harm in that.

John Dehlin [02:48:44] Okay. What would you say to fellow Christians and even fellow evangelical Christians ministering to Mormons?

Steven Pynakker [02:48:52] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [02:48:53] And ex Mormons.

Steven Pynakker [02:48:54] Yeah. So I think that one of the great disservices that I see with a lot of the evangelicals that are engaging Mormonism is that I think you're doing it all wrong. I think that you really don't know what you're talking about in many cases. I think that you have a certain point of view that you think is absolutely true and everybody's false. And, and I say that because many of you come from a hyper Calvinist background. So I'm talking about Dr. White, I'm talking about Aaron Shalafeloff, I'm talking about Apologia Church, who recently opened up a branch here in Utah.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] You're naming names.

Steven Pynakker [02:49:31] Yeah, I'm not afraid to do that. But I, I, I, I don't agree with what you're doing. I think you represent a top, a type of toxic Christianity. I think that what you're doing, in one sense you could say, is pushing more people out of the kingdom than in. But you guys are all Calvinists, so you think we're all predestined anyhow. So my question is to you is, what is the point? If we're all predestined, then why do you even bother going and doing this stuff? Because God's already decided that anyhow. Why don't you? And then this is the other thing. You lack empathy. And why do I say that? If you really, truly believe that the vast majority on this planet are destined predestined for eternal damnation, you know what your response should be? It should be empathy for people and feel bad that that's what their fate is. Rather than attack them, make their lives miserable, pass laws against them, why don't you show, if you really, really believe this, that most of humanity is damned and that's the justice and love of, love of God, then why don't you be nice to these people? Because they have eternal damnation ahead of them and you don't. You, like, you lack basic humanity and empathy for these people that you believe are predestined for eternal torture.

John Dehlin [02:50:51] That's the spiciest I've seen you get.

Steven Pynakker [02:50:54] I'm going to be much more harder on my side than I will ever be to the Restoration.

John Dehlin [02:51:01] All right, Jen, any questions for Steven before we close up or comments?

Guest 6 [02:51:09] No, I don't think so. I think this was really good. I really, really enjoyed your Mormon Stories interviews.

Steven Pynakker [02:51:16] Thank you. Well, I got a bunch of people in Draper, Utah, probably waiting for me, and I think my ride should be coming. So I just want to thank you, John, for just having me on. This has been a really. I think that these were very important conversations that we had these last couple days, and I really hope that to the audience that, you know, I hope that, you know, I probably misspoke on a few things, got a few facts wrong, and I'm going to be jumped on. But just think, I came here in love and wanting to have real dialogue and conversation, and I want to thank you, John, for providing me the platform to do that.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] My pleasure. Yeah, it's been wonderful. And please check out Mormon book Reviews, podcast and YouTube channel and support Stephen and his ministry. Because, you know, even if you don't like the. I think. I think it's beautiful, the. The belief in the Christianity that you're conveying. You know, you're. You're my kind of Christian, you know, along with Chris Thomas and other friends of mine who I've named before, even John Hamer. Right. But listeners of yours, even if you don't like the religious part of what Stephen talks about, he knows the history, and he's getting the best scholars and thinkers and interesting stories on his show. He's doing really important work. He's doing work that I reference, and I've been doing this a bit of a long time, so. So support. How can people support you?

Steven Pynakker [02:52:45] Well, I have a Patreon page, and I just recently opened up a PayPal account that I hopefully will have linked up. So if people want to financially support me, they can go to my YouTube page and find links there. And I also try to get them on my website as well.

John Dehlin [02:52:57] Mormonbookreviews.com we'll try and provide some links to that.

Steven Pynakker [02:53:01] Thank you. Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:53:03] All right, Steven. Thank you, brother.

Steven Pynakker [02:53:05] Thanks. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:53:06] Thanks, Jen.

Guest 6 [02:53:06] Yeah, you're welcome.

John Dehlin [02:53:07] Thanks, Gerardo. Oh, wait, he's not. And thank you, viewers and listeners. I'll just really quickly say, we couldn't do this without you. Go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. We need your support to pay for all this, all these services. We really appreciate those of you who do support us and email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com with your feedback or ideas. Comment. Subscribe to all our different channels. TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. Subscribe, follow, like, comment, share. Give us positive reviews wherever you can. We have people who don't like us, who try and hurt us and lower our ratings and say hurtful things. So those are all ways you can support us in addition to becoming a monthly donor. We really appreciate all the support. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, love each other. And that's something we can all agree upon.

Steven Pynakker [02:54:03] Amen.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] Amen, brother.

Steven Pynakker [02:54:04] Yep. We had church service today.

John Dehlin [02:54:06] All right. All right. Thanks, Jen.

Guest 6 [02:54:08] You're welcome. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] Thanks, Steven.

Steven Pynakker [02:54:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:54:11] We'll see you guys all again soon. Thanks, Chris. See you guys soon.

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