Introduction and Family Background

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Heather [00:00:36] The kindly light a myth encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John de Lynn. The date is June 19, 2017. We're broadcasting to you live somewhere in South Jordan, Utah, and we're really excited for today's interviewees. My name is John Dehlin and for those of you who don't know, a few weeks back a young girl named Savannah bore her testimony read, a testimony that she wrote during fast and testimony meeting in her ward. And in that testimony, I would say it was a bit of a non traditional testimony because in that testimony she came out as lesbian and talked about all sorts of things, including her belief that her heavenly parents love her and did not make any mistakes when they made her, and talked about her hopes and dreams and what she wanted to do with her life. And of course, by all accounts, it was not a traditional testimony offered in your traditional Mormon congregations. And at some point, I guess it was the first counselor in the Stake Presidency, he became really uncomfortable with the testimony and he asked her to sit down. So a video was taken of that interview, of that testimony and was shared on the Internet and it's now been shared across the world. It's had millions of views, as I understand it, and lots of people are very interested. There's a lot of people who are very happy and supportive and feel really good about the interview. There's also a lot of people who have questions. You know, was it staged, was it manipulated, was it done to harm the church, was it some type of publicity stunt, etc. Were the parents involved? You know, how did the video get leaked and all that sort of thing. And so today we're going to be talking to Heather, Savannah's mother, and to Savannah, and we are going to answer all the relevant questions and tell, most importantly, tell Savannah's story, give her a chance to tell her story and allow Heather to also give a little bit of backdrop and context. We are recording this interview live and one of the main reasons we're recording it live is because we really want listeners to write in questions or comments. We only really want constructive comments, and we want them to be respectful. But we're totally fine with people who have genuine, sincere questions or concerns or comments, and they want to share them. So we are up to 197 live listeners and growing. And so we want to invite those of you who are paying attention to please participate. So without any further ado, Savannah, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Savannah [00:03:59] Well, thanks for inviting me. It's really nice to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] It's our pleasure. And Heather as well, thank you for joining us.

Heather [00:04:08] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] All right, so I think the best place to start would be to talk a bit about your family context that sort of provides the backdrop for this courageous testimony that Savannah shared. So, Heather, would you mind telling us just a bit about your family and anything you want to know about your family's story that kind of provides some context for that event?

Heather [00:04:38] Okay. I am not a member of the church. My husband is a member of the church. I used to be, but when a policy came out excluding LGBT members from certain ordinances in the church and their children, then I decided to step away from the church.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] So you were raised.

Heather [00:04:57] I was raised lds.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Okay. In Utah.

Heather [00:05:00] I am from Southern California, Moreno Valley, and moved to Utah in my senior year of high school and have been LDs since then. And just recently is when I. When I left.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] And so you were traditionally believing for many, many years?

Heather [00:05:18] Oh, yeah, yeah. Married in the temple. I went to byu, Idaho. So, yeah. Believer. I did have a little bit of a rebellious state, I would say. I married a non member, and that's Savannah's dad. And we were only married for a year, but that was my phase. And I came back full force after we were divorced. And then I married my husband, Josh, and we're married. We have our mixed faith marriage, and we make it work. We have my four younger children that attend with my husband. Savannah occasionally attends, and she's just kind of struggling a little bit, trying to figure out where she fits in with her faith and her orientation. So that's kind of a little bit of background.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Just to talk a bit more about your faith journey, when did things kind of unravel for you?

Heather [00:06:15] It would been back in November of last year,

John Dehlin [00:06:19] 16 or 15.

Heather [00:06:21] Sorry, 15.

Savannah [00:06:21] 20.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] 15.

Heather [00:06:23] I apologize. I had started kind of a little bit of a feminist awakening. I am a midwife, and I was going to midwifery school at the time and taking cultural competency classes. And learning a little bit more about marginalization and things like that. And so I had a little bit of feminist stuff, and I went into the feminist mormon housewives group and just started listening to, like, Lindsay Hudson park and learning about polygamy in the church. And so that kind of got me questioning a lot of things. And when that November policy came out, it really. I just. It hit me really hard. I also had suspicions about Savannah. And so I was just looking at how that would fit in with a faithful family life and Mormon and being gay and what that would look like, and all the people that I know in my life that are gay, and I'm just like this. It just didn't feel right to me.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] But Savannah hadn't come out to you at that point.

Heather [00:07:17] She hadn't come out. Like I said, it was just suspicions.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] But you had other friends or family that had.

Heather [00:07:23] Yes. And know that families that are even, like children with homosexual parents that did go to church, and I knew it would affect them. So that was really. It was just hard. And I prayed about it and prayed about over and over and fasted and tried to find out how that would work. And I received what at the time felt like a personal revelation. And what I was taught that. That felt like that this was just not corre. Doctrine or policy. It wasn't right. It wasn't in alignment with what I believed to be God's will. So it gave me peace to have that.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Is that something you were able to be vocal about with your husband and children?

Heather [00:08:05] Not at the time. I kept it to myself for obvious reasons. It's just a difficult topic to talk about. And my husband was deployed at the time, and so I was kind of going through it by myself anyways. And when he got home, completely out in my mind, I was out of the church, so that it was a rocky start from there and him coming home, and I was just in a completely different space. So we've come a long way since then, working together and figuring out where we stand.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] So between November 2015 and, I guess earlier this month, it was this process of coming out as someone struggling with your faith to your husband and negotiating how that worked. And did the family stay active in the church throughout that time?

Heather [00:08:59] My husband and kids and whatnot.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] Or did you. Yeah. When did you stop going? At some point or.

Heather [00:09:03] I stopped going. So it would have been about six months after the policy came out. I stopped attending.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] And so kind of summer 2016, you stopped?

Heather [00:09:12] I stopped attending, and I haven't been back much since. Then I just go back for, you know, baby blessings and whatnot. I did attend Savannah's testimony in support of her, but hadn't been back much.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Okay. But the kids. All five of the kids kept attending.

Heather [00:09:30] Savannah's been intermittent just again with her. She. She came out in June 22nd of last year. It was the day after her birthday, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Right around that time.

Heather [00:09:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] When you stopped attending,

Heather [00:09:42] that gave me good reason. I just. I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't go anymore. And it. Yeah. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] What was that like for you when Savannah came out to you as a mom?

Heather [00:09:55] It just. I don't know. It wasn't anything completely surprising. I just assured her that I loved her and that this was just normal. It's not anything different about her. It's like anything else, like saying she wanted to be a soccer player. It didn't change much for me.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] But then knowing that your family was still largely attending, how did that make you feel?

Heather [00:10:18] I knew things would be different. I knew it would change for. I mean, I was terrified of my husband knowing and what he would say or do and my extended family. I was worried about a lot of that and what that would look like, so that was difficult.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Okay, so. And you said you're comfortable kind of saying the general area that you live. Right.

Heather [00:10:43] We're in Eagle Mountain, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Okay, so you're kind of Eagle Mountain. That's. Where's that?

Heather [00:10:48] Near Saratoga Springs? Lehigh. It's west of Utah Lake.

Savannah [00:10:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Okay. All right. And a lot of people, I think it's probably worth just asking, like, what? As a mom, I'm sure it's a bit of a conflict to know that your daughter's receiving kind of international exposure. Right. And talk about what made you feel like you were supportive of Savannah speaking out, not just in the ward, but kind of in this podcast and the other interviews you've done, etc.

Heather [00:11:25] Right after it happened, I had a friend, Angie, that spoke about the experience of Savannah's testimony. She posted it on Facebook and just her experience of it, and it got a lot of traction. Just people read about it and were kind of. I mean, were devastated to hear that this had happened to Savannah. And I was talking to Savannah about it, and I said, a lot of people are interested in what happened to you, and they're thinking about this. And Savannah just said, that's good. I want to be a voice for the LGBT community, and I want them to know how things are inside the church for gay Mormons. So that is the background of all of this is that she wants her story to be heard so that maybe some differences can be. Some changes can be made within the church towards LGBT members. And even for her, it's not just about Mormonism. It's about everybody in the world being more accepting.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] And so as a mom, is it conflicting to say, oh, do I want her to get media attention? Is that tough, or.

Heather [00:12:30] Absolutely, it's been difficult. I never expected it to get the attention it is. So for me to say, okay, let's. Yeah, we can, you know, talk about this on Facebook. I never thought that it would, you know, go crazy like it has. I didn't know that many people were interested in this, so neither did Savannah. So it's. It's been a little crazy.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] And what. What was it that kind of pushed you to say, I need. I want to support this publicly?

Heather [00:13:00] Her. It was all her. She asked for it. She. She knew that there was a video done of it, and she said, let people see. Let people see what. What this looks like for gay Mormons. Let people, you know, see what. How gay people are treated all over the place. And, yeah, that's something that needs awareness.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Excellent. Anything else you want to say before we turn the mic over to Savannah?

Heather [00:13:24] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Okay, we'll weave you into the story as it goes. Hi, Savannah.

Savannah [00:13:32] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] How's it going?

Savannah [00:13:33] Good.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Thanks for coming on Mormon Stories.

Savannah [00:13:36] Oh, thank you for inviting me.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] It's my pleasure. Okay, so you're 12 years old, is that right?

Savannah's Life Growing Up in the Church

Savannah [00:13:44] Yes. I'm going to be 13 this Wednesday.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] All right, well, happy early birthday.

Savannah [00:13:49] Yeah. Thank you, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] It's gonna be Savannah's birthday. Don't forget. Okay. Don't forget Savannah's birthday. So, Savannah, maybe just talk quickly about your memories about kind of being raised in the church and, you know, have you enjoyed. You know, let's just say before you're kind of realizing that you were. You were gay or lesbian, did you enjoy going to church? Did you feel like you believed in the church? Like, what was your experience? Were you active in church at least through some part of your life? Talk about your experiences in the church prior to last month.

Savannah [00:14:28] So before, when I was little, I say, as far as I can remember, I go to church with my parents. I didn't exactly have, like, a perspective of it because I was still a kid. So I'm like, yay, Primary.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] Did you like the songs?

Savannah [00:14:45] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] Did you have a favorite Primary song?

Savannah [00:14:50] I can't remember what it's called anymore. That's my favorite song. How do you forget?

John Dehlin [00:14:55] What does it say? What is it about?

Savannah [00:14:57] I think it's called the child's purr, actually.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Heavenly Father, are you really there? Is that it?

Savannah [00:15:02] Child's purr?

John Dehlin [00:15:03] Okay. All right.

Savannah [00:15:03] Okay. So I'm not crazy.

John Dehlin [00:15:08] So you liked primary?

Savannah [00:15:09] Yeah. And then later on, I'm gonna skip all the way to 8 years old.

Heather [00:15:15] All the way.

Savannah [00:15:16] I got baptized, and all of my family was there. And then I got this big poofy dress that when he sat down, it looked like a cupcake. Yeah. And that was interesting because I would have thought more would happen when being baptized.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Okay.

Savannah [00:15:39] It still happened.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] And did you just, as you think through being 12, did you like going to church? Did you believe in it?

Savannah [00:15:46] Oh, I definitely believed in it. And then, like, I was. That was okay. I was told that that was the right way, and I believed it was the right way, and I was happy where I was until I figured out some things weren't as true as I thought they were. Sorry if that was too quiet.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] No, it's all right. So when did you start? Like 12, some might say. Well, 12's a really early age to kind of have any sexual awareness or sexual identity awareness at all. Can you talk about your memories of coming to a sense for your own sexual orientation or sexual identity?

Recognizing Her Identity and Coming Out

Savannah [00:16:30] It was around sixth grade that I felt I saw, like, a girl. And I was like, you know what? I wonder what it would be like to kiss her. And then I was like, wait a minute. That's not right. So I pushed that thought aside for the whole years, tried to make myself like boys. And then during the summer, I'm like, you know what? I like girls. So I came out to my mom

John Dehlin [00:17:00] that was in sixth grade or the summer between sixth and seventh grade. What'd you say? What'd you say to your mom?

Savannah [00:17:07] Mom, you know what? I like girls. And then she's like, okay. And when I came out to my dad, he's like, I know when you were a child, you said that you. You were in the car just in deep thought, and you said, you know what, Dad? I like girls and boys. And that's how it's been since that. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Were you scared to tell your parents? Were you worried about anything?

Savannah [00:17:35] Yeah, I was, actually. I'm impressed if anybody else doesn't feel scared while coming out to their parents, because it is so scary, I should say. And what were you scared of? That they wouldn't accept me for who I am and would tell me that it's not the right path to Go. And the church doesn't want me to be like that.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] Okay. But that wasn't how they reacted.

Heather [00:18:03] Yeah.

Savannah [00:18:04] They accepted me for who I was, and I was happy about that.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Good. Had you by this point gotten a sense for what the church taught about these things, or did you even know that the church had positions on this sort of thing when you came out?

Savannah [00:18:22] I didn't know they had anything on that when I came out, but. But I soon figured it out afterwards.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Yeah. How did that happen?

Savannah [00:18:33] I was having a conversation with my mom in the car about church and. And she told me why she left, and that was why.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] And you hadn't known that from before?

Savannah [00:18:46] I hadn't known about it. It's probably because I missed the last general conference before that.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] Okay.

Savannah [00:18:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] So you. So your mom told you that the church wasn't supportive of LGBT people living LGBT ways, Is that right? Having same sex relationships that the church wasn't comfortable with that?

Savannah [00:19:12] Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's what it is.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] Was that a surprise to you? Does that make you sad?

Savannah [00:19:18] It was a surprise, yes. Because I felt like they've already gone down this path and it didn't work out last time.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] What do you mean?

Savannah [00:19:28] It's the same. I don't want to be sound racist or anything, but it's the same with black. Black people. And they were told that they couldn't do the things because of their skin color. And I feel like that's really close to what's going on with the LGBTs.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] And so you. You kind of thought maybe you wish the church had learned its lesson and learned to be more inclusive back then.

Savannah [00:19:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Okay. All right. Were you worried about Heavenly Father's love for you and whether that might affect, you know, your status as Heavenly Father? Were you worried about that kind of stuff?

Savannah [00:20:13] Um, no, actually. Because if God didn't want me to be gay, then he wouldn't have made me this way. And if he really thought I was doing something bad, I think he could tell me, and he still hasn't. So I feel like I'm going down the right path.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] Do you feel. So you believe in Heavenly Father?

Savannah [00:20:36] Yes, I do, but. Well, I believe in heavenly parents.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] Heavenly parents.

Savannah [00:20:42] I know the church feels like God is a boy, but you never know. Maybe it could be a woman.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Right. Or man and woman. Or man and woman, yeah. So you feel close to your heavenly parents? Do you feel like you have a relationship with them or.

Savannah [00:20:59] I would say yes and no. I would if I was saying the prayers correctly. Hopefully, then I Think they would answer to me, but they haven't. But I still believe in them. Even if they are. They are or aren't there.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Okay, so so far you don't get the types of answers maybe that you'd like to receive more, but you're still holding on hope.

Savannah [00:21:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Okay, so how. So between the time you came out to your. To your parents and now, did you keep going to church? Did you stop? Well, how did it affect your relationship with the church?

Savannah [00:21:44] At that point, I saw I sort of still went to church.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Would you have been a beehive by then, or were you still. You were a beehive?

Savannah [00:21:54] I'd be beehive by then, yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] All right. And you were still going. So what was church like once you kept going?

Savannah [00:22:02] It was a little bit different, seeing how the stories were different from what they would say and how they would change the stories. And. But. And I seem to be more. How do you say when you have more questions, like. And you. I was more question. Asking more questions in church than I usually do.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] And how'd the leaders like that? The questions you were asked, what types of questions were you asked?

Savannah [00:22:32] If Joseph Smith really did translate the plates, then why did he look through a hat while not translating the plates? Wouldn't they? Even though that could be his way of translating the plates.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] So you started studying kind of church history stuff?

Savannah [00:22:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] Did you have any sources? Like, did you read websites or books or did you talk to your family?

Savannah [00:22:55] I talked to my mom a lot about it, and I've also skimmed through Joseph Smith's like, I don't want to say diary, so I'm gonna say journal.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Okay.

Savannah [00:23:08] And I think, yeah, that's pretty much it.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] So you would ask questions about Joseph Smith's translation, the Book of Mormon. Any other types of questions you would bring up in church?

Savannah [00:23:21] Not that any of I could think off my head.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] Did you ever talk about. Did you tell anyone in your ward that you were lesbian or did you keep that kind of to yourself?

Heather [00:23:34] I was not gonna.

Savannah [00:23:35] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] You want to talk about that? Okay. Okay. But like, your leaders. Did you. Did you talk to leaders about that? Like your bishop or your Sunday school teacher, Beehive leader?

Savannah [00:23:48] A little bit. I would say my Sunday school teacher a little bit because I have talked to him about it before because he seemed to understand a lot of the questions I was asking. But yeah, that was sort of it.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Okay, but you. I guess you didn't get in trouble when you talked about it or, you know, there were no problems, were there? Problems in your ward prior to, you know, with leaders or anyone prior to giving your testimony. So that you want to talk about?

Savannah [00:24:22] I don't exactly know because nobody's, like, full on talked to me and how

John Dehlin [00:24:27] they feel about it, I mean, even from before. So you never talked to your bishop about being lesbian or anything like that?

Savannah [00:24:36] He figured it out at testimony meetings.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] So that time when you gave me. Okay, but before then.

Savannah [00:24:41] Before then, no.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Okay.

Savannah [00:24:44] I don't think a lot of people knew actually, from church.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] Okay. People didn't know when you bore your testimony. That was kind of the first time that most people heard that. Okay, so what went into you deciding that you wanted to bear your testimony and come out as lesbian during fast and testimony meeting, talk about that decision and what led to that? Now your dad's a believer, right? He's believing, and your mom kind of stopped believing. So you're in a mixed faith family. How did it occur to you to bear that testimony in that way?

Savannah [00:25:23] Because I wanted my ward to know who I was and that I'm the same person no matter what, and that gays and LGBT people are the same no matter what, and this is how they were made, and everybody should love and support them just how they are.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] So you were having those thoughts and you just wanted to talk about it?

Savannah [00:25:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] And had you ever heard a testimony like that before?

Savannah [00:25:51] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] So what? You know, I know a lot of adults that would never want to talk about hard things, and I'm not sure to this day the word lesbian's ever been uttered over a Mormon pulpit before. I don't know, but maybe rarely. But what made you want to talk about it in that way?

Savannah [00:26:12] I wanted to talk about it in that way was because I would say my religion wasn't treating the LGBTs the way they should be treated, and they deserve respect and support for who they are, and they just want to be loved for that, and a lot of people aren't doing that.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] And so you were concerned that the church wasn't showing enough love and support to LGBT people and you wanted to talk about it?

Savannah [00:26:44] Yeah, I would say some people were, but a lot of people weren't.

Bearing Her Testimony at Church

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Okay, so. So when you decided to. That you wanted to bear your testimony in that way, and if you. And if you want, go ahead and speak to the camera directly just so that people can see your shiny, smiling face. What? So did you, you know, did you run that by your parents? And what was that conversation like when you let them know that you wanted to bear your testimony that way?

Savannah [00:27:16] The first time I said it, I was doubting myself to even tell them that I wanted to do it, because I felt like I already knew the answer was going to be no. And this was in January, and it took me a couple of times to actually get a yes, and I was surprised even to get a yes, and that's when it started.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] So was your dad. Was he. How did he react when you had the idea? Because if he's a believing Mormon, I imagine that might be scary for him or worrisome.

Savannah [00:27:52] Yeah, he was. I don't think he knew at the very beginning, but later on, we brought it up with him, and he was a little bit yes and a little bit no about it, and never got a specific answer from him. But he did come, and that was enough for me.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] But. But whose idea was this to give this testimony?

Savannah [00:28:21] Me.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] It was you?

Savannah [00:28:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] And so why didn't you give it in January?

Savannah [00:28:26] Because I want the support. And I also wanted a yes for my parents to be okay to do this and have it respectful.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] And they needed time or what?

Savannah [00:28:39] I don't know. Maybe you should ask them.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Okay, Heather, let's bring you in. So what was it like when she comes to you? So this wasn't your idea, I'm hearing?

Heather [00:28:50] No.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] I mean, I think there are skeptical people out there who are like, oh, this was staged. This was meant to hurt the church. Oh, how can parents sort of use their child in this way to make some public statement? What would you. You've probably seen some of those.

Heather [00:29:05] A few, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Yeah. So what? Talk about that.

Heather [00:29:09] Like, she said she wanted to do this since January. She brought it to my attention and had written it out and showed it to me, and I was just like, no, no, no, no. You're just gonna get hurt from what people will think of you or say about you from the ward. I just. I don't. I don't think so. I don't feel like the Mormon Church was a safe place for LGBT people. So I just. I was just opposed to it. And she kept just. She was adamant about it, just kept coming and coming, saying, please, Mom, I really, really want to do this. I want to tell them what my beliefs are. I want to show them that LGBT people are just like everyone else. Like she said. She just. She's like in a. If there's anybody in the congregation that might be in the closet, I want them to know that it's okay to talk about these things and be a Mormon. And I talked over it with friends and got just other Parents that have gay children, other Mormons that have gay children, and just said, hey, how do you guys feel about this? Please help me guide her. A lot of them said, no, don't do it. That's throwing her to the lions. And some of them said, no, you can't take away her voice. That's not your place to take away. To take that away from her. And I eventually brought it up with my husband when I was kind of maybe thinking it might be okay. And I had him read what she wrote, and he actually just got really emotional reading it, and he said, yeah, I feel like that's really respectful. I feel like that, you know, would be okay. And so we. We just talked it over and decided that showing our support to her and in being authentic was more important than what other people might think. So as parents, we said that. That it was okay. And she went ahead, and the second she heard, yes, she said, okay, next Fast Sunday, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:31:00] So the approval happened in May. It took about four months for you guys to feel comfortable with it.

Heather [00:31:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] And for. So obviously a video was made. And, you know, there are. People are thinking that because a video is made that it must have been staged and planned by you and the family to. To put her up to this and then to record it and then to share. What would you say about that claim?

Heather [00:31:28] She had a friend recording it that was a youth, and they were recording it, too, for a couple of reasons for her to have record of this. I mean, this was a big thing for her. She wanted to keep it and be able to look back on it and remember that she did this big, hard thing. And she also wanted to share with her Rainbow Mutual Group, which is a Mormon LGBT youth group that she goes to, and wanted to show them that she was brave and got up and was able to say her. To say her faith over the pulpit. So.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] But it wasn't something that you or the family recorded?

Heather [00:32:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] And were you planning on this being a thing, immediate thing, when it happened?

Heather [00:32:12] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:32:13] How did you think? Well, what did you think would happen? Once she gave that testimony and you. And it was recorded, what did you think would happen?

Heather [00:32:21] Nothing. I mean, she. She shared it with her group, her youth group, like she had intended, and that was. It was quiet, and that was. That it wasn't a thing at all. Yeah. And once it got out to media, I didn't even think it would do what it is now. I didn't think that there was this much interest in someone in a Mormon Congregation. So I had no idea this is what would happen.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] So just to be clear, you guys didn't record it? You didn't release it to anyone? You didn't plan for this to be released?

Heather [00:32:55] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] And so this was not a staged, you know, immediate event?

Heather [00:32:59] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] From the family?

Heather [00:33:01] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Okay.

Heather [00:33:03] In fact, I mean, it's been. It's been very difficult seeing where it's gone or it's going. But we also know that it's something that it's positive. It's a good thing that it is out there. Savannah wanted it to be out, and she wanted her story to be heard because it's. It's something. It's something that needed change. Her whole community needed change, and she wanted. Wanted that to be out there.

Savannah [00:33:30] Okay.

Heather [00:33:30] So, I mean, my husband and I are very clear about Savannah running. Running all of this. Like, she's not done anything without her own consent or without her own. Hey, mom, dad, can I do this? Can. Can we share this? And so it's. It's been her.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] So were you there when she gave her testimony?

Heather [00:33:50] I was just in support. I knew she was doing it, obviously, and was there in support.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] When you. When you hear those words, like, just hearing the word lesbian across a Mormon pulpit or having. Or having it be read, there's a lot of people that like, well, that's not authentic, because Mormons don't read testimonies. They. They give testimonies from the heart. They don't talk about. They don't disclose their sexuality over the pulpit, especially these children. You know, you're watching that, and you're going, this. This almost can't be real. And in some ways, it's so not what you would expect that you're like, this is jarring. I can't believe they've let it go on so long. So, I mean, there's a Mormon part of my brain that was like, I can't believe they've let it go on this long. So did you. You know, there must have been some extent to where you realized this was going to be something that's pretty much never done. How did you and your husband kind of reconcile that and still feel like it was okay?

Heather [00:34:52] We. We had considered that and talked about it, and we. We have a bishop that we thought would be supportive of it, and we're close with him, and our family is close with him, and. And we really felt like he would have let her get up and speak this. And we had warned Savannah of the natural consequences that could happen because you Never know. But with our bishop being out of town that week, it kind of jarred it a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] Okay. What did you think would happen in the war? Did you think the bishopric would just let it go or.

Heather [00:35:29] If our bishopric had been there, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Okay. But you didn't know he wasn't going to be there?

Heather [00:35:33] No, no, we had hoped that he would be there, and I'm sad that he wasn't there, even today.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] So the bishop wasn't there. So who was presiding?

Heather [00:35:42] First counselor, the bishopric, and the first council of the state presidency.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Now, that's kind of weird. Is it. Is that weird for a member of the Stake presidency to be up on the stand? I don't know that I've seen that a lot.

Heather [00:35:55] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] It's just the way it was that day.

Heather [00:35:58] Yeah. Okay. It's. I don't want to give out too much information, but I. It wasn't weird because of who he. Who he was, so.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Okay. And did you guys. Do you guys have a relationship with the first counselor of the Stake presidency? Did you know him?

Heather [00:36:13] Yeah.

Savannah [00:36:13] Okay.

Heather [00:36:14] Yeah. He used to be the bishop. So we do.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Of your ward?

Savannah [00:36:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] So he's a member of that ward?

Heather [00:36:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] And he was just up there, coincidentally.

Savannah [00:36:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Okay. Did that make. Okay. That make you nervous? Did you.

Heather [00:36:25] I was a little nervous when we got there, and that was the case. And when the meeting started and the bishop didn't show up, I. I did. I did get nervous for her.

Savannah [00:36:34] Yeah.

Heather [00:36:35] And she still wanted to get up and do it. She had come that far and was ready to do it, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Okay. All right. So, Savannah, what did. What did the day feel like when you show up at church and people, you know, they're singing the opening hymn and then the sacrament. The sacrament hymn. How are you feeling in your stomach as you're contemplating going up and reading your testimony?

Savannah [00:37:05] It's like one of those moments where you're like, should I wait or should I leave? And it's just. It's way worse waiting than going up fast.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] Mm.

Savannah [00:37:21] And seeing it happen. Knowing the time is ticking down is really suspenseful.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] Okay. Were you, like, one of the first up, or.

Savannah [00:37:31] Yes, I was the first up.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] You were the first up?

Savannah [00:37:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Okay. And were you scared? Did you have butterflies in your stomach or.

Savannah [00:37:39] Oh, yes, butterflies.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] Okay. All right, so talk about. Do you want to go ahead and read what you. What you actually wrote? Do you want to read that?

Savannah [00:37:51] Yes, I will read it just for you.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Okay. All right. Read us what you. What you. What you Shared.

Savannah [00:37:59] Okay, I'm going to start right. Right now.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] Okay.

Savannah [00:38:01] Hi, my name is Savannah and I want to share my tissue with you. I believe I'm a child of heavenly parents. I don't know if they talk to us, but I feel in my heart that they made me and they love me. I believe I was made the way I am. All parts of me by my heavenly parents. They didn't mess up when they gave me my brown eyes when I was born bald. They didn't mess up when they gave me freckles or when I was made to be gay. God loves us just this way because he loves all of his creation. I believe he made me this way on purpose. No part of me was a mistake. I did not choose to be this way. And it is not a fad. I cannot make someone else gay. And being around me won't make anyone else this way. I believe that God wants us to treat each other with kindness. Even if people are different. Especially if they are different. Christ showed us this. I believe that we should love. I believe I am good. I. I try my best to be nice to others and stick up for those that are hurting. I know I'm. I'm not a horrible sinner for being who I am. I believe God would want me. Sorry. I believe God would tell me if I was wrong. I hope someday to go on gates, go to school dances, to hold hands and to go to college. I hope to find a partner and have a great job. I hope to get married and have a family. I know these dreams and wishes are good and right. I know I have. I can. I can. I know I can have all of these things as a lesbian and be happy. I believe that if God is there, he knows I am perfect just the way I am and would never ask me to live my life alone with someone I am not attracted to. He would want me to be happy. I want to be happy. I want to love myself and not feel shame for being me. I ask that you all pay close attention to what you say. You never know who is listening. I had dreams of going to the temple and getting married and was very sad when I found out that would never happen for me. Today I choose to find my joy outside of my old dreams. When I was little, I have dreams and I know my earthly parents

John Dehlin [00:40:17] and

Savannah [00:40:17] heavenly parents love and accept me just the way I am. Amen.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Beautiful. Savannah. What made you want to write that out instead of just kind of. A lot of people said, well, it's not authentic because she wrote it Out. It's scripted. What made you want to write that out?

Savannah [00:40:34] So I know exactly what I want to say, and so I can be respectful for exactly what I say.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Right? Okay. Yeah. I would almost think writing it out makes it more from the heart because you're able to be really thoughtful about it. What do you think?

Heather [00:40:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] Yeah. All right, so what was it like when you were stopped? So you were almost through? Right. Tell us what happened and what was said to you when you got stopped.

Savannah [00:41:03] When it stopped, at first I thought it was broken.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] Oh, so the mic was shut off?

Savannah [00:41:09] Yes, the mic got shut off.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Okay, See, how far in? About halfway in. How far in?

Savannah [00:41:15] Do you know the sentence where it says to be careful? I mean, to pay attention to what you say because you never know who's listening?

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Yeah.

Savannah [00:41:23] It was midway in that sentence when I got cut off.

John Dehlin [00:41:26] Okay. And could you hear that it had been shut off?

Savannah [00:41:32] I kept. I kept going with the sentence, and then I'm like, it's not echoing.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Okay.

Savannah [00:41:38] And I was, like, tapping it. And then I thought it was broken, so I wanted to tell the guys behind me. And when I turned around, he said, can you go sit down? And then I just did what I was told.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] How did that feel? When he said, can you please sit down?

Savannah [00:41:53] It was so. It was like my happy level was up here. And then it dropped down a little bit, and then it dropped down more when I walked off.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Okay, and when you were walking off, how were you feeling?

Savannah [00:42:10] I started crying because I wanted to finish, and I felt like I should finish my message for what I was saying because a lot of people needed to hear what I was saying because they just needed to. And I was also happy that people could hear it and that I was being somebody's voice and being there for someone that probably needed that. And then everything was confusing because every emotion was, like, mixed together.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] So did you come back? Did you come back and sit down? What happened after you got back down? Did you go back and sit in the pew or.

Savannah [00:42:53] So I sat down, back on the bench, and my mom was helping me feel better because I was crying like a baby, I will say that. And she led me out into the foyer and she hugged me and told me that I was perfect and that she loved me just the way I was and nothing bad would happen. And then multiple people started. Started coming out and hugging me and making me feel wanted. And it was, I'm sorry, I gotta take her. And multiple people kept coming out and were saying how important I was and how brave I was. And after that, we went outside, and I got to finish my testimony, and everybody was happy for me, felt loved.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] How'd you finish it? Outside.

Savannah [00:43:47] I reread the testimony outside when we were sitting on the grass, and it was really nice. Sorry,

John Dehlin [00:44:00] are you feeling. What are you feeling right now?

Savannah [00:44:03] Yeah, like I'm gonna cry.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Oh, okay.

Savannah [00:44:07] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] No, it's fine. Heather, what was it like as you were watching your daughter and they turned off the mic and then asked her to sit down? What was that like for you as a parent?

Aftermath and Reflections on the Testimony

Heather [00:44:22] Extremely difficult. I obviously had known that that could have been a possibility. I didn't expect it, and maybe that's naive of me, but I really didn't expect that to happen. And like you said, she was almost done. She was almost through it. And it could have been so easy to just let her say her last few words, even. I don't know. He didn't know how long it would have been. But it was hard to watch. It was hard to watch her come down crying. And for him to just sit there and watch her come down crying was hard for me to watch also. Just. I don't think I could see a child walking away from me in tears and not do anything and not go and say something to them or. Or comfort them in any way. So that was hard for me. And we got up and went to the foyer, and like she said, I just held her face in my hands and told her that she was perfect and there's nothing wrong with her and that her words were heartfelt and right for her, and so that it was hard. It was really hard to watch, and I was full of emotion and a little bit of anger and. And a little bit of. A lot of hurt for her.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Did you regret supporting her, doing it?

Heather [00:45:33] Never.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] Why not?

Heather [00:45:35] Because she. Because I allowed her to have her space. And that wasn't. It wasn't. It's never my place to take away her voice for her and to. I think that if I would have said, no, Savannah, you can't do this over and over again continually, she would have had a bigger message throughout her life that, okay, my mom taught me that who I am is not right or who I am is wrong or that there's something. There's something off about me, that I'm not normal. And I didn't want to give her that message from a mom and from her dad. We wanted a bigger message to be given to her, and that was that she was accepted and loved by her parents. So I think she has that.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] So Savannah, after it was over and you had been asked to sit down, did you. Were you still glad you had done it, or did you sort of have regrets about doing it?

Savannah [00:46:30] If I could do it again, I would, because it was just an important message and people need the love and respect that they need, and people are not giving it to them. They've families have kicked out LGBTs when they came out, calling it tough love, and sure, that's how you want to show love, but that's not how they feel it. And that's hard. And people need support and the love that they all they can get. And that's sort of what I was trying to give in my speech.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] How do you feel? How did you feel once it started being picked up on the Internet and people started talking about it and showing it across the state and across the world? How did that feel for you?

Savannah [00:47:29] Why am I becoming famous?

John Dehlin [00:47:35] And that's what you thought?

Savannah [00:47:38] Yeah, that is sort of what I thought. And I would. I wouldn't think it would be that big, even though I wanted it to be a message for LGBTs. And it just got bigger and bigger, and I guess it sort of made me happy.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] And what made you happy?

Savannah [00:47:57] That people were supporting more and that they understood my message and it was getting better. Sorry. Don't be sorry.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] So you felt like you were getting your message out there?

Savannah [00:48:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] How about you, Heather? How did it feel to see it take off on the Internet unexpectedly?

Heather [00:48:20] Um, scary. Scary. Because I didn't want any backlash to come to her, our family, to the. To the members that were the. The men that were in the video. Also. I didn't want anything bad to happen, but I was also really proud of her and super grateful for all the people out there that were showing her support and saying that, yes, this has helped them see that. It's. It's good to be able to get up and talk about this topic because it's something that's silenced so much. So to hear other people. Grown men are telling me that they have courage now to come out to their family because of Savannah. And that is huge to me to see that there are other people gaining courage off of my 12 year old. So that's. I think that's amazing.

Listener Responses and Advice for Others

John Dehlin [00:49:19] So, Savannah, we have some listeners who are writing in, and how about if I share with you some of the comments that they're writing? Is that okay?

Savannah [00:49:28] That would be amazing.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] All right, so Karina writes, you are an inspiration to so many people. Josh writes, I guess for Heather, I hope that I'd Be a parent like Heather. Ashley writes, you're so strong, Savannah. Let's see. Melissa writes, it must have took everything she and her mom had to keep her composure and not rush right up there and confront the bishopric member. Heather, did your mama dragon come out a little bit?

Heather [00:50:02] A little, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Are you a mama dragon? Take the mic real quick. So are you a mama dragon?

Heather [00:50:06] I am a member of Mama Dragons. And, yeah, that fire definitely comes out. And. And as a parent, you want to protect your child all the time. And to see that she was hurting over something, absolutely. I wanted to come up and say something, but more importantly, I wanted to comfort her, which is why I took her and left. Yeah, that definitely was. That was hard, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Savannah, Natalie writes, I needed to hear your testimony. So thank you you for sharing with all of us. You are loved by your heavenly parents and countless other people who are privileged to hear from you. You are wonderful and fearless. I hope that your dreams do come true. We support you.

Savannah [00:50:51] I love all these people.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Does that feel better?

Savannah [00:50:55] Yeah, it does.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] Jen writes, savannah, you're one of the sweetest and most compassionate bright young women I know. Heather, I love and support you. You guys are amazing.

Heather [00:51:06] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] So lots of. Lots of good feedback. So, Heather, I'm gonna ask you a question that I kind of asked you again. This is, you know, this is a really fair question. And let's see. I'm not seeing it now, but Jonathan Streeter, who's a friend of mine, wrote in, and he said, something varies that I'm a little bit uncomfortable seeing sort of an adolescent, you know, with so much attention and media attention. This feels uncomfortable. It almost feels like taking advantage of a child or giving inappropriate exposure to a child in a situation that's really complex. You know, I can talk about why I wanted to do the interview, but how would you respond if, you know, if somebody said, this just isn't right to give a child this much attention and exposure in this way?

Heather [00:52:04] I understand that it's a difficult, like you said, a complex situation. What about kids that are on American Idol? What about any. Any kids that's on any outlet? It's giving them a space to grow and to become the people they're going to. And I'm giving Savannah a voice by allowing this to happen. And that's what she wants. It's what she asked for, and I'm not going to silence her voice. That's not my. It's not my place. It's not something that I need to do. This is her community, and they all need a voice. And if I have the opportunity to give her a platform for that, I will do it.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Okay. For me, I just want to say that. Well, number one, I think it's obviously a really important message. But I had the same hesitations. But what I didn't like were the assumptions and the accusations being made about everyone's motives, about this being contrived and planned. There were some apologetic responses that I'm not super comfortable with. And I just felt like. And I've been through this, because when I was excommunicated, a lot of people were trying to say what it wasn't about and what I was trying to do. And they really do attack and slander the messenger and spread fear and uncertainty and even lies about people's motives. I mean, that's really all they can do, because media attention can be. Really. Can powerfully impact the church. And so that's. The apology response is to slander the messengers.

Heather [00:53:42] And that's. I mean, I look at that, and, yes, it's uncomfortable. And I would invite all of those that are uncomfortable with it to sit with that and look at why they're feeling uncomfortable about it. And it's because. I think it's because that this is a topic that they just don't want to talk about, they don't want to look at. But we have kids that are killing themselves over this, and they need us as adults and parents to be on their side. And if I don't give her a voice here, how many. How many people are gonna get the. The impression that these kids are not. Not like this, that they're not okay, that they don't have a space to be themselves, and that they're gonna choose to kill themselves instead? When we could spread this around and show that here. Look, the LDS Church is not accepting them as they are. They would rather be dead than be here in this type of congregation. This isn't just about Mormons. This is about everywhere in this world. There's not acceptance, and it needs to change now. I'm sorry, sweetheart, that she doesn't like hearing that kind of stuff. She's got. She's got close friends and that are in. In this knee deep. So it's. It's hard for her to hear about those types of things.

John Dehlin [00:55:12] Savannah, if there is, let's just say, a young. A boy or girl, teenage boy or girl, even adult man or woman who's Mormon or religious and gay and lesbian, do you have. Do you have a thought or a feeling or an idea you want to share with them if they're struggling or not knowing what to do.

Savannah [00:55:36] Love whoever you want. Don't let anybody tell you who to love and what to choose. If that's who you love, then that's who you love.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] And what if they're. What if they're torn between their religious beliefs and their, you know, who they love? I imagine that was a struggle for you, feeling like you have to choose between your beliefs and who you might want to love someday.

Savannah [00:56:07] That's why it was hard for me to come out, because I didn't want the church to kick me out and make me feel like I was not wanted, even though that's sort of what happened anyways.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] You feel kicked out.

Savannah [00:56:25] Yeah, but that was before. Even because they. Sorry. Before that they said that they weren't. If they. You've ever had to say sexually attraction or sexually touched or something with another person of the same sex, then you can't go to the temple or do all the things that you would want to do. And that's just really hard because people need that and they're just pushing them away.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] If you could give the church advice, what would you tell the church to do with LGBT members?

Savannah [00:57:17] Be more loving and accepting and show them. Even if you don't want to love and accept them, just show them respect for who they are and how they want to be that person.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Makes sense. Heather, what do you hope would come out of this? Do you expect any change to come out of this or, you know, who do you expect might benefit from this whole conversation and what might come out of it?

Heather [00:57:47] I don't expect change. I would hope for it within, not just the LDS Church, but within religions and government. I would want them to see that. Look at the. How the impact that this has on everyone, but within the church, specifically, Yes, I would want them to see. Look at what. Look what you're doing to your youth. And maybe something needs to be addressed here. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] So what. What's going to happen going forward? Savannah, do you plan on still attending church? Have you been contacted by leaders at all? Have you talked to any church leaders since this all happened?

Savannah [00:58:32] I have talked to the young women leaders. Does that count?

John Dehlin [00:58:36] Yeah, that counts. Definitely counts. They're leaders.

Savannah [00:58:40] Yeah. I have had multiple people say that they support me and love me, and I'm the same person that they before. Like the young women leaders and the young women and in your ward. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] So you feel supported by members of your ward and by your young women's leader?

Savannah [00:58:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Okay. Do you plan on still going to church?

Savannah [00:59:04] Not right now.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] Right now?

Savannah [00:59:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] How does it feel right now?

Savannah [00:59:09] A little crappy, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] What part's crappy?

Savannah [00:59:16] That I wasn't accepted for who I was, and I want to be accepted for who I am. And right now, the church isn't showing me that, but hopefully they do in the future. And if it does, I might change my mind, or I might change my mind anyways.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] But right now, you're not. You're not thinking much about continuing to go to church?

Savannah [00:59:44] Not right now.

John Dehlin [00:59:45] Okay.

Savannah [00:59:46] I will still keep my name in the records if I do change my mind.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] But for now, you're still a member.

Savannah [00:59:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Okay. All right. And how's the family doing, Heather, with all this?

Final Thoughts from Savannah and Her Mother

Heather [01:00:01] Pretty good. Just, it's. It's stressful and a lot of anxiety happening, just for obvious reasons. So. It's good, though. It's opened up some fantastic conversations with my husband and I, and I am grateful for that, and it's opened up awesome conversations with my neighborhood, so just within my ward and the people that are talking, and it's. It's good conversation. It's hard, but it's good.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Are you able to share at all how your husband has reacted or is feeling, or would you rather not?

Heather [01:00:36] Sure. He. He's upset that her mic was turned off. He felt like that could have been handled a little differently. Maybe they could have, you know, put their arm around her and just said, hey, let's steer this a little differently or just something that would have been a little bit more kind. So he is upset about that. He's. He's in a learning process right now as far as gay issues go, and he's trying to do his best, and there's lots of progress with all of us, but it's good, good movement.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] So it's been a good thing for your family, even if it's been stressful? Yes, it's opened up some good conversations. All right, well, I think we've had lots of great comments from the listeners. We're grateful for everyone who's been tuning in. Heather, we'll start with you. And then, of course, we want to give Savannah the final word. Are there any final thoughts or feelings or anything you want to share just with those who are paying attention and who are tuning in to what you guys are trying to say and do?

Heather [01:01:43] Yeah. As a parent, I've learned a lot about the LGBT community, and I'm still learning. I am far, far from educated, as much as I could be, but I will do my best to Boost their voices. And I would hope the other parents would be the same, that if there's parents out there that have kids that are struggling, listen to them, hear them, Please don't kick them out. It's hurting them a lot. So that's just for parents. Listen to your kids and love them for whatever. If they're of a mixed orientation, please listen to them and love them.

Savannah [01:02:26] Okay, that's that gays aren't weirdos and they never were weirdos. And if they are weirdos, I'm sorry, but they're not weirdos.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] Okay. Any other final things you want to say to people listening?

Savannah [01:02:41] I love you guys. You guys are super nice. I hope to meet you someday.

John Dehlin [01:02:48] All right. All right, great. Well, Savannah, thank you so much for being willing to share with the world, as it turns out, how you're feeling and what you're thinking and to try to send a message of love and acceptance. Acceptance out there. I think a lot of people are going to learn and benefit from your courage. So thank you.

Savannah [01:03:15] Thank you for letting me be on here. And it was really nice. I'll give you a hug after.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] I'll take it. I'll take that.

Savannah [01:03:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] And, Heather, thank you so much for allowing Savannah to do this or no, I shouldn't say allow for supporting her in doing this because it's decisions like this are really hard as a parent. So thank you.

Heather [01:03:37] Absolutely.

Closing Remarks and Song

John Dehlin [01:03:39] All right, so we had certainly over 300 people tuning in live on Facebook Live or more people come in and out. It looks like we've had over 4,000 views and it says over 11,000 people reached. We want to thank Mike Norton for helping us become aware of this and for helping us get in touch with with Heather and Savannah. We appreciate that. We want to thank all of our listeners and those tuning in. I want to thank, as always, the OSF staff, Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton. We couldn't do this without them. And of course, we want to thank our listeners, those who support us. If you like this episode, please share it on your walls. If you want to help get this message out, please, please let family and friends know. For those of you who support Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation, we really appreciate it. We couldn't do this without you. And we just want to say we're grateful to be part of this conversation. And if anybody has thoughts or feedback, go to mormonstories.org you can share your comments or questions there. You can go to the Facebook page where this was streamed and make comments or questions there. We'll be posting this to YouTube, and of course, you can make comments and questions there. But most importantly, just those of you who support Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation, we couldn't do this without you. So thanks for supporting us. I think we're done. Is that all right?

Savannah [01:05:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] All right, let's wave to everybody in Facebook land and thank everyone for joining us.

Savannah [01:05:17] Thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] And please tune in again for Mormon Stories. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Heather [01:05:49] Make me whole? When with a wounded heart? Anger or malice?

John Dehlin [01:06:06] I draw myself apart? Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.