Welcome and Introduction to Sarah Sample

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 947

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 14, 2018. We are, we are recording and broadcasting to Facebook Live live here in our studio, our Open Stories Foundation Mormon Stories Podcast studio in Salt Lake City, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] We are really excited for all the good things that are happening across the globe in Mormon Stories land and Mormon Stories Podcast. And we are really, really excited today to have with us another singer songwriter. So we have been featuring, we have a history of featuring singer songwriters here and there in our 13 year history.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] But today we have Sarah Sample. Some of you will know of Sarah Sample's work. If my memory is correct, she has six albums out. You can check her out on Spotify. Some of you have heard of the Lower Lights, which is a musical performance group that has performed in Utah, in and out of Utah for many, many years.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] It's a great group, but Sarah's been performing with them for a long time. But she has had a solo career ever since her days as a undergraduate at Utah State University. Again, she has six albums but she is currently promoting her sixth album and it's called Red Wing. And it is inspired by her faith journey and her journey specifically out of Mormonism. And we have been using it as a bumper on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] So if you've heard that song, Love who youo Love, that is one of the, one of the songs that is just amazing. But they're all amazing. So I had lunch with Sarah. I don't know if it was yesterday or the day before.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] We were talking about it and we had this idea that instead of doing what we did with Angela Soph, which was to sort of tell her story and then have her perform. It's always been my dream to have a singer songwriter where we do an interview, but we kind of sprinkle songs along the way in the interview instead of have it be blocked out. So what's cool about this interview is Sarah's in it and then secondly, she's debuting her new album. And thirdly, we're broadcasting it live. And fourthly, it's the first time we're going to have her tell her journey sprinkled with her songs throughout.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] We're grateful for everyone who's able to join us here live in the studio, we actually have, you know, we're gonna, by the time everyone joins us, we'll have about 10 people here in the studio, which is really fun. If you ever want to be part of one of our studio, live studio recordings, let us know. We do that here in Salt Lake every once in a while.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] But we're also very grateful for everyone joining us on Facebook Live. We will be taking your questions and comments. So please tune in and share your comments and questions with us and we'll share. We have just a few really quick announcements.

Mormon Stories Workshops and Community

John Dehlin [00:03:43] We have been holding these workshops and retreats for the past two and a half years, and they have been really transformative for so many people. That's why we do it. It's not like we need more stuff to do. We've got plenty to do. But there are people struggling with their anxiety and depression over their faith crisis. There are people whose marriages are in jeopardy. There's. There are people who are struggling communicating with believing family and friends. Maybe they're closeted in a box, not able to come out in an authentic way. Maybe they're scared that they'll lose loved ones or friends or even a job. And these people need support.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] So we do workshops and retreats all over the country to support these sorts of people. And so I'm just gonna tell you really quickly where the upcoming ones are. We just had an amazing retreat in Park City. We will be coming to Houston, Houston, Houston. We'll be coming to my, my Hometown, Houston, Texas, July 13th through 15th. Sam Young will be sponsoring us and it's going to be a great time. We're coming to Idaho falls August 10th through 11th. Portland, Oregon is a newer announced event that will be August 17th through 18th. Really excited about that. A great group has, has signed up in September.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] We're doing something really special. We think it's going to come off. We are going to travel to Sweden and we're going to Jeremy Runnels may join us and we're going to be visiting Hans Matson and Birgitte Matson. You know, there's been a lot of cool things going on in Sweden over the years. We as Mormons and post Mormons and liberal Mormons owe a lot to the Swedish Saints who, who have helped lead the effort of sort of awakening intellectually and emotionally, calling the church to account. And of course, Hans mattson, former Area Authority 70, who's been on Mormon Stories podcast, who's been covered in the New York Times.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] He's come out with a new memoir about his own faith journey. It's been released in Swedish already, but he's got an English version that he's going to be releasing. So we hope to travel to Sweden. Hopefully, Jeremy will join us. We hope to promote Hans Mattson's book. We hope to interview him live on video so that we can for the first time have Hans Story captured in video form like we just did with Michael Koh just a month or two ago. Really cool. We hope to have what we call a Swedish Rescue rescue where we are going to just me, Jeremy, Hans, Birgitta, maybe some other cool people.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Meet with Swedish liberal, progressive, post Mormons and just minister to them in our own way and they'll minister to us and educate us and it'll be just fun. We also are planning a little workshop in Switzerland just that next weekend. It's in mid to late September. I don't have the dates handy, but that's coming. So if any of you want to just kind of travel with a bunch of us to Sweden and then Switzerland or either have some fun, meet some cool European progressive and post Mormons, we'd love to have you join us and see Sweden, see Switzerland. I'm actually part Swedish. I'm more Scandinavian than I am English.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] It turns out Delin is a Swedish name, so I'm excited to go back to my homeland. We're having the Mormon stories Bahamas cruise October 24th through 28th. And then Sacramento is our newest event that we'll be doing November 2nd through 3rd. We're super excited for Sacramento. That's also a great group.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] So that is the announcements that we have for today. Now it's time to get back to the main reason we're doing this interview. Sarah Sample, it has been so lovely to get to know you over the past few days.

Sarah Sample [00:07:32] Thank you.

Sarah Sample [00:07:33] I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Yeah. So you, you came all the way from Wyoming, is that right?

Sarah Sample [00:07:37] Yes. My husband and I moved to Wyoming with our kids four years ago. So we live in northern Wyoming, a little town called Sheridan.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] But you, you spent some of your upbringing in, in Salt Lake City and some college here. So you know that you know the territory.

Sarah Sample [00:07:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:07:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] So why don't you just introduce yourself to our audience. We're going to go in depth, of course, but for those who don't know anything about you, you're a, you're an award winning singer, songwriter. Tell us just a bit about yourself to kind of tease the audience as to how, how cool this experience is that they're about to have with Sarah Sample.

Sarah Sample [00:08:13] Yeah, I've known from when I was really little that I wanted to be a songwriter, to be a singer. And my dad was a vinyl record collector and we listened to a lot of different music growing up. Everything from like Aretha Franklin to classical to Liah Lovett you know, on and on. And I fell in love with songwriting and.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] So were you disappointed when Lyle Levitt broke up with Julia Roberts? I think that's an important question. You weren't disappointed?

Sarah Sample [00:08:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] You were okay with Julia Roberts, but Margi was heartbroken.

Sarah Sample [00:08:46] It didn't shake me.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] For Margi, that was the. That was the couple made in heaven.

Sarah Sample [00:08:50] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] But for you it was just. You wanted him for you.

Sarah Sample [00:08:53] No, I just wanted him for his music.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Okay.

Sarah Sample [00:08:55] Yeah. Yeah. So I started writing songs pretty early on. I started writing songs in like fifth and sixth grade and then played music all through high school and college and started making records when I was in college. I originally traveled around. My family moved a lot when I was little.

Sarah Sample [00:09:16] We lived in. I was born in Logan, actually, and we lived in Houston and we lived in Georgia. And then we moved to Santa Barbara, California when I was seven. And I, I call Santa Barbara home. That's really where I grew up mostly.

Sarah Sample [00:09:31] And then when my, when I turned about 17, my mom got a job here in Salt Lake, so we moved to Salt Lake. My older two siblings had already moved on. They were done with high school and in college, and I moved with my mom and my little brother to Salt Lake and then went to Utah State. So that's where I started touring and making records. And I've just continued doing that the last 15 years.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] And when you say award winning singer songwriter, what types of awards?

Sarah Sample [00:10:03] So I play what I call folk music or singer songwriter music. So the awards that I've won are like multiple songwriting contests. The Folks Fest songwriting contest in Colorado, Merle Fest Songwriting contest. I did a lullaby record with my good friend edie Carey in 2014, and we won a bunch of awards for that. The children's, I mean, the Parents Choice Awards, the 14th annual international independent Music Awards.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Lots of cool awards.

Sarah Sample [00:10:31] Lots.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] And you, you've, you've probably performed in festivals with names that. Or rubbed shoulders with names of people we'd know. Like who?

Sarah Sample [00:10:39] Yeah, like, I went like, I'm a

John Dehlin [00:10:41] huge fan of David Wilcox. He's a singer songwriter that took over my life for about six years, seven years. She's actually like had lunch with David Wilcox. They like hung out, they sang songs together. And I was super impressed.

Sarah Sample [00:10:55] Yeah, I love David Wilcox.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] He's not Mormon in any way. He's just a really kind of in my circle's famous singer songwriter.

Sarah Sample [00:11:01] The festivals are the funnest ones because you get to really, you get to mingle and rub shoulders with kind of your heroes and, and People like that. There's a really fun music cruise, if anyone loves that type of music called KE Amo. And it'll have people like, when I was on it playing one year, there was Emmy Lou Harris and Brandi Carlisle and Patty Griffin and just really incredible people. Buddy Miller. And it's so fun.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] And you have tattoos. I mean, we have to say that right at the outset. So watch out, watch out.

Sarah Sample [00:11:33] This is.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] I'm a little nervous, but we're gonna do it anyway.

Sarah Sample [00:11:37] It's getting dangerous in here already.

Mixing Live Music Into the Interview

John Dehlin [00:11:40] All right, well, I. I thought it'd be super fun to mix the music into your interview. So what do you say?

Sarah Sample [00:11:45] Yeah, I'm. I'm totally up for that. I think that is what I love about playing folk music, is that you tell the story of people. So my album is mostly telling my story, and I love it.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] All right, well, let's get into your story.

Sarah Sample [00:12:02] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Yeah. So do you have the pioneer heritage or not so much.

Sarah Sample [00:12:07] Yeah. Okay. So on my mom's side, like, true pioneer stock, her parents have farms in central Utah, like around Spring City and Moroni, and raised turkeys and cows and things like that. My dad's side of the family is not no Mormon stock. They were converts to the church when my dad was in high school, so my parents met at byu. My dad served a mission. They got married in the temple when he got back, and then they started having us. My dad went to law school at the University of Utah and then died. Decided to leave the Mormon Church. And my parents still stayed together for a long time. But eventually my dad and mom were divorced, and my dad moved back to Texas.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] When he left, did he ever tell you why? Were you too young to even have that conversation?

Sarah Sample [00:13:00] I was in third grade when it happened. And no, but I think also as a child, you sense. Like, children are really intuitive and smart, and I think they sense when something's not right, you know? So I think that had been brewing for a really long time.

Sarah Sample [00:13:20] But it's interesting, and maybe I'll play a song in just a second about their divorce, because for a long time, I think that I looked at my dad and felt a lot of anger, you know, about that. He left to move back to Texas, and I wanted to write a song that was about what it felt like as a child to go through your parents being split up. And then once I left Mormonism, I all of a sudden had this new compassion for my dad that I don't know, that I had experienced before. And I Think that when you go through a transition where you were someone and now you are not that person anymore.

Sarah Sample [00:14:04] And kind of the fundamentals of what you believe have changed, that you really have two choices in a marriage, which is you just pretend nothing has changed. And I don't know how long, like, that is sustainable. Or you say, like, this is the new me and should we work through this or should we.

Sarah Sample [00:14:24] I don't know, like, you expose your true self or you split up. And I think that happens a lot. So maybe I'll play that song. This is a song I started writing again from the perspective of my life, of my parents being split up. And then it just got really interesting when I changed the perspective to his life. So this is called Love Ain't Enough Anymore.

Sarah Sample [00:15:11] I don't look at the pictures hanging in our hall. Cause they all tell a story of when we had it all. Just kids out of college on a little church lawn. And I can't tell you when or how it went wrong I thought it'd be better this way.

Sarah Sample [00:15:48] Pretending that nothing had changed. What is a life when you're living a lie? What is a life when you can't change your mind? When you're bound to the old you? You're wagin a war Honey, I love you but love ain't enough anymore.

Sarah Sample [00:16:35] Well I tried to tell you but I lost all the words I hated to show you. Cause I knew it would hurt I couldn't be like you A constant bright star. Cause burning out trying leaves you lost in the dark.

Sarah Sample [00:17:05] What is alive when you're living alive? What is alive when you can't change your mind? When you're bound to the old you? You're waging a war Honey I love you My love ain't enough anymore. I thought it be better this way.

Sarah Sample [00:17:57] But I know now it can't stay the same. What is alive when you're living a lie? What is a life when you can't change your mind? When you're bound to the old you? You're waiting honey, I love you. But love ain't enough anymore. Anymore. Thanks.

Sarah Sample [00:19:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] So true, so good.

Sarah Sample [00:19:14] Thank you.

Family Background and Leaving the Faith

John Dehlin [00:19:14] This choice of, like, hiding. Hiding what you feel and hiding who you are and what you think and kind of living that agreement that you made with your. Yourself or with your family or with your spouse or trying to be authentic. But sometimes that. That crumbles the foundation that you and everyone else have built their lives on, right?

Sarah Sample [00:19:40] So somebody told me that when you leave your faith, you find yourself. And I think I Think my transition, at least from leaving Mormonism, is all about self discovery and about really holding everything up to the light and asking, well, do I think this or do I agree with this? And rebuilding a foundation for a belief, you know, your beliefs in the world and how you're going to live. And I think.

Sarah Sample [00:20:08] I think that would be so hard to realize that you don't hold the same values that you used to hold with your spouse. I think that's a really difficult place to find yourself in. And I think it is easy for a long time to say, well, I'm just not going to show you this.

Sarah Sample [00:20:24] I think that feels easier initially, but I think it can be pretty suffocating to feel alone in a marriage like that. I feel really lucky that my husband and I left together, which certainly, I think there are challenges, no matter how you, like, spin it.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] But yeah, you say it's like, it's like being at war with yourself to have one public face and then kind of your private self. It's like being at war.

Sarah Sample [00:20:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] With yourself. And.

Sarah Sample [00:20:56] And it's interesting because my dad never. He never talked about why he left Mormonism even now.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] You don't know?

Sarah Sample [00:21:05] No. Well, I think what's interesting is I, at the time, and I lived from third grade when he left, through my marriage, like, years of being married, where I had never once asked, why did you leave?

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Right.

Sarah Sample [00:21:18] Isn't that bizarre?

John Dehlin [00:21:19] Totally bizarre.

Sarah Sample [00:21:20] Like, that question never felt important to me. I had my own ideas of why he left. And so I think. And that's also been really fascinating for me. And I don't know if you guys have experienced this, but nobody wants to talk to me about why I've left.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] We call it the cricket effect.

Sarah Sample [00:21:40] And it. But I think it's crickets. It's such an interesting topic. Like, it's fascinating to talk about and. And nobody wants to talk about it, which I think is really sad because I. I feel like it's, I don't know, a really great conversation. And I feel like if people would ask me, then they would know me so much better.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Did your dad ever tell you why he left? Like, do you know now?

Sarah Sample [00:22:04] Yeah. So my dad is a super smart human being, like, just really brilliant mind and reads all the time nonstop and only nonfiction, like, loves history, loves everything. And I think when. I don't remember exactly when it was, we were living in Boise, we were still in the church, and we went out to dinner and we asked, why did you leave the church? And he said, I'll paraphrase but basically in one sentence, he just said, I believe that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Like, it was not.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] And what year did he decide this, do you think, approximately?

Sarah Sample [00:22:44] Oh, I don't. I think pretty soon after they were married, maybe a year in, like in the 90s.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Would this have been?

Sarah Sample [00:22:51] No, this would have been in the 80s.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] 80s, yeah. Okay.

Sarah Sample [00:22:54] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:22:55] So I think he had discovered he, he didn't believe that Joseph Smith wrote. I mean, he didn't believe it was divine, you know, intervention. That Joseph Smith had, had written the Book of Mormon. And that's all he said. That was. The whole dinner conversation was just, I just don't think Joseph Smith. That was an inspired text and that was it. And kind of, you understand, like, well, if you don't have that.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Yeah, I mean, I mean, when Gordon B. Hinckley says the Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of the church, it kind of is. It's kind of everything falls if the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be. So.

Sarah Sample [00:23:30] Well, and my husband and I experienced that too. And I don't want to like, jump.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] Yeah, no, no, no. We'll, we'll, we'll get to that. We do have some listeners who are joining in. I just want to share some of the things shared so far. Lisa writes, leaving your faith puts you through a struggle of self identity, but it helps you seek out the world that resides around you to realize there's so much more out there, a bigger purpose and meaning to this thing called life. Thank you, Lisa, for sharing. Jenny writes, nailed it. Sister with a little heart. I assume that's not your real sister, Jenny Diggins way.

Sarah Sample [00:24:06] That's just some of my best friends.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Well, really?

Sarah Sample [00:24:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] So shout out to Jenny. Ann writes, beautiful. Rachel writes, quote, what is a life when you're living a lie? So powerful. So. And Rachel also writes, OMG. Covered in chills. Four hearts. And then a beautiful. With like 12 exclamation marks.

Sarah Sample [00:24:30] I love you, Rachel.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Rachel. Rachel writes like I do. Carla says hi from Star Valley, Wyoming. So you're not the only Wyoming in. What's someone from Wyoming called?

Sarah Sample [00:24:39] Rad.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] Rad. Amelia. Amelia writes, I used to watch her perform at usu. Sweet. One of your old USU fans. Hey, Amelia. And Jenny writes, hey, Sarah. Jenny Wentworth.

Sarah Sample [00:24:55] Yay.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] All right. Oh, and Par is joining us from Sweden. Par writes Heathen from Sweden. So it's fun to have people joining us from all over.

Sarah Sample [00:25:05] Yeah, thanks for listening.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] N A Johnson from Casper, Wyoming. Sarah's from El paso, Melissa from St. George. All right, well, let's get back to your story. So your dad leaves when you're how old?

Parents' Divorce and Growing Up Without Dad

Sarah Sample [00:25:17] So my parents are divorced when I'm in third grade and he moves back

John Dehlin [00:25:19] to Austin around eight years old.

Sarah Sample [00:25:21] So my mom is like on her own in Santa Barbara.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] And was she like destroyed? Was she like totally, like Unsinkable Molly Brown? What was that like? Or do you remember?

Sarah Sample [00:25:31] Did you even know she was so amazing? My mom is my favorite human on earth. She's just this resilient, incredible woman. And I remember her trying to take us to multiple therapy sessions. And like, we'd try a therapist and it wouldn't work out and we'd try another therapist. And I have a funny memory of her, like, pulling up to the new therapist and my older brother jumping out of the car and just like beelining for the woods, like, I'm not going in. And kind of as a single mom, like, what are you gonna do? You can't drag him in, you know? So I think she was up against a lot.

Sarah Sample [00:26:09] So, yeah, I. I have a lot of love and respect for my mom. I think she. I think she was always doing the best she could. And I think that she, the gift that she gave to all of us is like a true unconditional love, which appears again and again in this story is her consistency in my life.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Okay, so growing up without your biological dad, how did that progress? What happened next?

Sarah Sample [00:26:37] So we saw my dad a few times a year and would spend the summers with him in Austin for part of the time. And I will say that one thing I loved about the church was we did have a home teacher. And our home teacher was this sweet old 80 year old cowboy named Roe McMullen who he drove a VW Bug and was just like the coolest guy on the planet Earth and really took care of us. He took me to my first Daddy Daughter dance because my dad wasn't there. And actually I have a song about it if you want to hear that.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Yeah, that's what we're here for. So now, is this on Red Wing?

Sarah Sample [00:27:21] Is on Red Wing?

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Was the last one on Red Wing too?

Sarah Sample [00:27:23] Yes, that song. Actually, I wanted to say I wrote with my friend Dustin Christensen. He's a Nashville songwriter. He's incredible. Please check him out.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] I love that song.

Sarah Sample [00:27:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] That was great.

Sarah Sample [00:27:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Yeah, that hooks you right there.

Sarah Sample [00:27:37] So this song I wrote with my sister, who, her name is Kate Graves, she's also a singer, songwriter, she still lives in Santa Barbara. And I had the idea for the song because my daughter June, who's now 10, was going to her first Daddy daughter dance. Do they do that here in Utah? Daddy daughter dance.

Sarah Sample [00:27:57] And so she was picking a dress, and she just was glowy and excited to go spend a night with dad. But it also wasn't that big of a deal to her, Right. Because she sees her dad every day, and she gets to camp and hike and have him at dinner. And so I was so emotional about it, and it brought up so many, I don't know, like, vulnerabilities in my mind, because she didn't think it was a big deal. And that was the gift of it, is that it wasn't that special that she got to go, like, do something with dad. But for me, I remember, like, Roe McMullen pulling up with his, like, orange VW bug, and he brought a corsage, and, like, he. I have a little Polaroid of us at the dance with, like, crepe paper behind us.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Was he, like, a home teacher?

Sarah Sample [00:28:50] Kind of.

Sarah Sample [00:28:50] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:28:50] He was like. He was my home teacher.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Okay.

Sarah Sample [00:28:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] And you were how old?

Sarah Sample [00:28:53] Like nine.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] You know, I'm not sure that would fly today.

Sarah Sample [00:28:57] Yeah, I don't know. I think it would. He was just, like, such an old cute cowboy.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] He was. Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:29:02] He was just amazing. So my sister and I had the idea of this song, and we, you know, songwriting. Some people ask, like, what's the process and how does it work? And honestly, every song is just really different. There isn't one way that it works for me, me. But this song. Some songs take a year to write, and I'll play one of those later. But this song landed almost complete. I started. I sat down on the couch with the guitar, and I. And the chorus and melody just. And words all came, like, the first time around. And I called my sister and said, it's happening. Like, can you write right now? And she said, yeah. And we sat down and we write this. We wrote the song in an hour, and we cried the entire time.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] Wow.

Sarah Sample [00:29:52] It was. It was. It was emotional.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] And the song's called the Dance off of Red Wing, Sarah Sample's new album. Yeah, the dance.

Sarah Sample [00:30:06] You come to town a few times a year. I marked a heart on my calendar for the day you're getting here. I had it planned. A big surprise. Mom said you'd pick me up at 6. I'm still waiting here at 9.

Sarah Sample [00:30:39] But I can see it all in my mind I'd be twirling in your arms I'd be flying and I would feel your love with Every glance that's how it's supposed to go at the daddy daughter dance. My wedding day guest sit and smile and you're finally by my side to walk me down the aisle we celebrate and they start our song but you're too boozed up to walk you've been drinking all day long But I can see it all in my mind I'd be twirling in your arms, I'd be flying And I would feel your love with every glance that's how it's supposed to go for the daddy daughter dance.

Sarah Sample [00:32:13] We never got our song we never learned the moves we never got to dance around with me standing on your shoes. I thought I was to blame till I finally figured out I could choose a different partner I could fill my dance card out.

Sarah Sample [00:32:45] Well, he's home at 5 for dinner time and he coaches all her softball games and tucks her in at night she picks her dress, it's pink chiffon when she walks down those stairs I watch him pin the corsage on and I can see it all in my mind she'll be twirling in his arms, she'll be flying she will feel his love with every glance that's how it's supposed to go at the daddy Daughter, Daddy dance.

Sarah Sample [00:33:53] Thank you. Pretty sad.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] So these first two verses are. Are a little sad. Like, what? So what?

Sarah Sample [00:34:05] Okay. I have to say. Yeah, Like, I really love my dad.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:34:11] This is a really, like, hard song for me to sing every night. And my dad, like, wasn't drunk at my wedding.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] I figured.

Sarah Sample [00:34:19] But my dad also, like, didn't live near me, so, like, we missed a lot. And I think it is, like, a sorrowful thing in my life to. To not have that as a kid. Not going to start crying. So I'm so grateful for my husband and for his presence and availability to me and to my children. I feel like that's been a really miraculous, if that's the word, part of the story for me.

Songs About Difficult Relationships and Healing

John Dehlin [00:34:58] So it's kind of about how you can have some of those hard relationships or hard experiences, but you can have other ones that maybe are healing and that are corrective, in a sense.

Sarah Sample [00:35:09] Right, right. I mean, just the fact that, like, the story can change, and I think that's what we're talking about today, is that, like, our stories change and we're gonna change as people. And, you know, I've had the experience of thinking that I was so right about something. Like, I was sure of it, and then having the experience of being wrong. And I wish that experience for everybody. I know, the experience of being sure of something in your life and losing that and having to start over because it changes you.

Sarah Sample [00:35:46] And I think the process of my father leaving the church and leaving Santa Barbara to move to Austin definitely changed him and changed us. And my dad, I think, is a much better grandfather than a father and is, you know, very present in my life and in my kid's life now. And I'm grateful for that. But I do feel like the job of a songwriter is to tell the

John Dehlin [00:36:12] story, not just the fun ones.

Sarah Sample [00:36:14] Not just the fun ones. Yeah. Actually, more important to tell the hard ones.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Delane writes, I have been on the other side of this, going through a nasty divorce and was disinvited to take my daughter due to the ugliness that ensues between parents. Broke my heart just like this song did. Frowny face, so sad. Kids so often become the weapons of divorcing parents. Sending our love to you, Delaine. Jenny writes, it's a mother's dream to give your children what you didn't get to experience. I think that's a huge part of the emotional pull of this song, is you're hoping your daughters maybe get a better experience than what you got.

Sarah Sample [00:36:59] Right.

Sarah Sample [00:37:00] And they don't have to carry the weight of it. I mean, I think that's part of it, too, is you get to have your dad in your everyday life, and you don't have to know that that's special, that can be normal for you, and that's the gift of it.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] Still, it's gotta be hard as a parent, if a kid. Which they will always do. Not always appreciate everything they have.

Sarah Sample [00:37:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] To not. For you. To not go. You don't understand how lucky you are to have a dad in your life, you know, because if your daughters are anything like most daughters, sometimes they won't always be grateful for. Right, right.

Sarah Sample [00:37:34] They're not teenagers yet.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] What are you laughing at over here?

Sarah Sample [00:37:36] They still think I'm cool. They still. They still love mom, so.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] It's the tats.

Sarah Sample [00:37:41] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] Beautiful. Okay. So. So beautiful. And I had. My parents got divorced when I was in seventh grade, and I had something very similar. For us, it was the father son camp out. And. Yeah. My home teacher took me to the father sons camp out.

Sarah Sample [00:38:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Did it.

Sarah Sample [00:38:07] You remember it?

John Dehlin [00:38:07] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was brother Connors. He was an organ player for the Houston Astros. And. And it was special and totally bittersweet because I loved going to the father sons campouts with my dad. And the dad's not there.

Sarah Sample [00:38:23] Yeah. You know, it's heartbreaking stuff. It's complicated. It's a complex thing. And one thing that I feel really grateful for both my parents is that neither of my parents, after being divorced, said anything bad about each other. They were both very, very respectful of one another.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] That's great.

Sarah Sample [00:38:41] So I feel really lucky in that way.

Temple Marriage and Shifting Social World

John Dehlin [00:38:45] All right, so what happens next in your story?

Sarah Sample [00:38:49] Okay, so let's see. Well, I think, and we talked a little bit about this at lunch, but I think that there are some things in growing up as a Mormon person, especially in Santa Barbara. It was before Prop 8, but I do remember that there were some lobbying against gay marriage.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] I remember it as Prop 22, around

Sarah Sample [00:39:12] 98, 99, something in those years. And I remember being really upset that they were asking members in the church to go door to door or to push this agenda. And I had gay friends in high school. And I remember asking my mom, like, what is this about? And I don't agree with this. And that's kind of where it ended. So then I move to Salt Lake. I get really invested in the church. When I'm 17, I get my patriarchal blessing. I'm on seminary council. I just, like, jump in, move to Logan. And that's where I meet my husband James, at Utah State. We get married in 2003 and finished school together there. We were married in the temple in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] Really quick. What made you jump into Mormonism? Were you vulnerable? Did you have fears, insecurities, doubts? Was it just. It painted a beautiful picture for you? Like, what? Can you remember what was so appealing about it for you? Because I get a sense pre Salt Lake, you weren't as into it as you became once you're at East High School.

Sarah Sample [00:40:28] I don't know if it was just that my social group changed. And so it was like what everyone was doing. So I remember going to my bishop at the time. Well, first, when I first moved here, I didn't really. I was still kind of partying, and I wasn't really involved in the church.

Sarah Sample [00:40:49] And the bishop in my neighborhood, who I love dearly, he called me into his office and said something along the lines of like, hey, if you can stop partying for three months, then I think you should get your patriarchal blessing. And I think it'll be this important thing. And I thought that patriarchal blessing sounded really cool. I wanted to do that.

Sarah Sample [00:41:14] And so I changed. That was like a shift in the road where I moved from this kind of party crowd into this Mormon crowd. For three months. And I had the experience of getting my patriarchal blessing. And it was so emotional. It was just. It was really powerful.

Sarah Sample [00:41:34] The patriarch, and I forget his name, but was just this incredible man who would cross country ski or hike to the top of a mountain to pray over each person that he was going to, like, give the blessing to. And it was a powerful experience and it changed me. And I thought, well, I want to do this. This sounds awesome.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] What were some of the things said, if you remember? I remember a few of the things said in mind that were just like, oh, my gosh. Do you remember what the things were that really moved you?

Sarah Sample [00:42:01] Yeah, there was a lot about music and there was a lot about, like, there will be no limit to your development and elevation in music. There was a lot about, you're gonna marry in the temple and you're gonna marry a returned missionary. And kind of how important it was to stay temple worthy. That was like over and over again. And I had. I was pretty compulsive about worthiness. That concept of it became really important to me. And I had a laminated copy, small copy made that fit in my scriptures. It was outlined, you know, just like circled it and read it. And I really did use it as a map. I mean, I ended relationships over it.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Because your patriarchal blessing.

Sarah Sample [00:42:48] Yes, because it did not fit within the blessing, you know. So I get meet James. He has just returned from a mission. He went to England on his mission and he was raised in a Mormon family and never strayed in any way. And we fall in love and he decides that he wants to go to medical school. And so he starts changing his major to pre med and we get married in the temple. And it was a beautiful day, but it was bittersweet too, because I had so many friends fly in from California and other places that couldn't be there, and my dad couldn't be there. And so I had a huge group waiting outside the temple. And then, you know, of course my mom got to go in and such. So we get married. We.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] So your dad wasn't at your. At the ceremony?

Sarah Sample [00:43:43] Yeah, he was there.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] But he wasn't in the temple?

Sarah Sample [00:43:45] No, no, no, wasn't in the temple. But we did a ring ceremony after the fact to kind of like my dad walks me down the aisle, we exchange vows in front of everybody. So, yeah, I continue making records and writing music. And we move for a year to Austin, Texas.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] Great. I love the story of your first concert at Utah State. Something you told me really stuck with me. Do you mind telling that story?

Early Music Career and Coffee Shop Performances

Sarah Sample [00:44:17] Yeah, sure, sure. So I was playing just coffee shops. I mean, I was writing songs.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] Cafe Ibis. Shout out to Cafe Ibis.

Sarah Sample [00:44:24] Cafe Ibis.

Sarah Sample [00:44:25] My sister worked at Cafe Ibis. So it was cool, cool joint. But I didn't drink the coffee, of course. Yeah. And then so I had a friend in town and his name was Russ Dixon, and he was from this group called Colors that was like a really big Utah band. Yeah. And Russ and I became good friends and. And he told me, he was like, I think you should do a big CD release concert.

Sarah Sample [00:44:53] And I think we should do it at the. At the Eccles Conference Center. And I said, well, how many people does that hold? And he said, well, it holds 400 people. 400 people. Like, I've only played to my sister and the barista next to her, you know, for weeks, or like my roommates who come down to hear me play or something. And he said, well, the trick to becoming bigger is you just.

Sarah Sample [00:45:16] You have to act bigger before people will believe that you're like, be more famous than you really are and people will believe it. So I was like, that's not true. He was like, no, it is true. He was like, if you build it as if you are deserving of that attention and people should come, they will come. And I was really skeptical, but they did. So we spent a month building these a frames painted Sarah Sample in concert. I put a band together.

Sarah Sample [00:45:46] We went flyering dorm room to dorm room, every dorm room, every apartment building in Logan. We went on the radio and I would bring donuts to the radio guys every Wednesday. And they'd let me play a few songs on the radio and talk to

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Aggie Radio in the.

Sarah Sample [00:46:01] No, it was like a local radio station.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] Tvnu, don't know. Okay.

Sarah Sample [00:46:06] Yeah. So they let me come in, play a few songs that talk about the show and. And so we start selling tickets and like we sell out the theater.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] 400 people. Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:46:17] And I was playing to like two people before that. And so, you know, Russ really taught me this valuable lesson that like, if you have enough time and preparation and work, that you really can build a following and an audience that way. And so I started playing twice a year these big theater shows. We played the Eccles Theater downtown that holds like 900 people. We played the brand new theater up on campus and it was awesome. It was really fun. So it taught me a lot about just like, if you dream it, you can like work to make it happen.

Sarah Sample [00:46:53] I think things are a little different. Like, I wish we could build a wooden A frame now to promote, but now you have to buy Facebook ads and tell your mom to bring all her friends. And now I'm back to 25 people I don't know. So, yeah, it was great.

Sarah Sample [00:47:10] And that actually was a time when I was going to make my first record in 2003, and I was terrified. And back then it was really hard to make a record right now. You all could make a record this afternoon. You could make it start to finish on your iPads, upload it to a distribution site, get it, duplicate it. I mean, you could do it all in a week. You could make a record and print it and they would CDs at your house. But then, I mean, just to figure out how to get a barcode on a CD was like four steps, you know, and.

Sarah Sample [00:47:44] And it was really expensive and it was hard to figure out how to do it. And I remember my husband telling me one night, well, no one's gonna make the Sarah Sample record. So if you want the Sarah Sample record to exist in the world, like, you've got to do it. And I was like, okay, I'm going to. I'm going to make it happen.

Sarah Sample [00:48:03] So, yeah, started making records. And we both worked like we were waiters in little restaurants, and we lived in a little apartment that cost $300 a month. And I don't know, we just had this simple, sweet life. We go to Austin, Texas for a year.

Sarah Sample [00:48:22] My degree is in music therapy, so I work at the center for Music Therapy in Austin, Texas. And I loved it. We worked with like, spectrum disorders, developmental delays of adults and children. We had a few, like, city contracts working with different groups. And then we worked with Parkinson's disease and we did gait training and things like that. And James put off medical school to be a phlebotomist for the year. And then we.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] That's blood, right?

Sarah Sample [00:48:50] Yeah, blood draw.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:48:52] And then we moved to Laramie for the first year of medical school and then moved to Seattle for three years. And in Seattle, that is when Prop 8 came around. And it was really hard for me to go through that. I remember we went to church one day and we were part of quite a liberal group of Mormons in Seattle. But I came to church and there was protesters lining the block in front of the church protesting Prop 8. And I was heartbroken. I just. I felt so sad and I felt ashamed. I didn't know what to do. So we walked in the building and I cried through sacrament meeting. I just felt so heartbroken.

Prop 8, Church Involvement, and Doubts

John Dehlin [00:49:38] And afterwards, were they protesting Mormons involvement in Prop 8?

Sarah Sample [00:49:42] Yeah, I think they were protesting Mormons involvement. But I bet there were a lot of Mormons there, you know, protesting prophet too. I don't know, I kind of did the like embarrassed.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] But they were mad at the church, is that what you're saying?

Sarah Sample [00:49:55] Yes, they were mad at the church.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] So you're going into your church with people lined up outside.

Sarah Sample [00:49:59] But I agree with them, right? Yeah, but I'm going into church.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:50:03] And after sacrament meeting, there was a girl in the ward who said. I told her that I, I disagreed and that I felt that like gay marriage should be legal and that I didn't have any problem with it. And I remember her telling me, well, how do you justify going against a prophet of God? And I didn't like have an answer. So I felt ashamed and embarrassed and I felt so sad that I wasn't brave enough to walk out and join them. I don't know if any of you went through some of that too.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] And it's interesting because you weren't in California, you were in Washington and Prop 8 was in California. So that struck such a nerve that it's spilling over into surrounding states. Right, right.

Sarah Sample [00:50:48] And we were in downtown Seattle, so. Yeah. And then we move to Boise for a year and then we moved to Salt Lake for three years for my husband's residency at the University of Utah. And that is when the story gets interesting.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] No, it's already been interesting. Let me just say one thing. You have a live performance tomorrow night, right?

Sarah Sample [00:51:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Tell everyone where and when because I want to plug that while our audience is at its apex.

Sarah Sample [00:51:17] So we. I am playing with a full band tomorrow night at the Post Theater on the U of U campus. It's a small, sweet little theater and it starts at 7 o'.

Sarah Sample [00:51:26] Clock.

Sarah Sample [00:51:27] My friend Paul Jacobson, who's in my band but is also an incredible musician, is opening the show and it's gonna be dreamy. You guys just come, it's gonna be great.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] How do they buy tickets?

Sarah Sample [00:51:38] So you can just buy tickets at the door or you can buy tickets online on my website, sarahsample.com okay, and

John Dehlin [00:51:45] just a couple quick comments. Daniel. Daniel's one of our super fans. I love Daniel. He was quoting you when you said, but I didn't drink the coffee at Cafe Ibis. And he says, that's too bad because the Highlander Grog Cafe Ibis is amazing and Margi loves the Highlander Grog. So Daniel, you and Margi agree. So anyway, Norma also Writes regarding, I think your dad being kept out of the temple. She writes, quote, pay to play intellect is so disturbing. I had to pay three months of back tithing to be able to witness my son's temple wedding and Norma's connecting with your. Your dad having to sit outside your wedding, basically.

Sarah Sample [00:52:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] Yeah. Real quick, before we jump into the even more interesting parts, how did you deal with that cognitive dissonance of, you know, of. Of having all these LGBT friends knowing that that policy was wrong, seeing those people, those protesters, feeling like you really wished you were part of them disagreeing with the church? How do you just soldier on from that? What was your coping mechanism to deal with the cognitive dissonance?

Sarah Sample [00:52:58] I don't think soldiering is the word. I would say limping on is a better description of how it felt. And also, I will say that I'm a singer songwriter. Like, there are so many amazing gay singer songwriters that I had had so many friends. And also living in Seattle, I had friends that were in gay relationships raising children. And so I was watching this Prop 8 thing go on and then seeing best friends raise beautiful children together and do it so gracefully, like, way better than I was doing as a new parent.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Weren't you in a class or something? And there were some lesbian moms involved?

Sarah Sample [00:53:36] I was in a. There's a group in Seattle called peps, and it's like a parent support group. So they match moms and babies in the same neighborhood, same age of babies, and it saved my life. I mean, I was such a wreck as a new mom, and the leader of the group, of our group was. Had a lesbian marriage and she relationship, and they were raising two children together. She had had one child. Her partner had had one child, and they were raising children. And they were incredible parents and resources to me. And so not only was I emotionally feeling that I don't agree with this, but I was seeing it. I mean, I was watching it in front of me play out. So actually, I have a song about that. All right, should we do that?

John Dehlin [00:54:23] Let's do it.

Sarah Sample [00:54:24] Okay. This is a song off the new record called love who you love, and

John Dehlin [00:54:29] this is the one we've used as a bumper, right?

Sarah Sample [00:54:31] Yes. Yeah, this is the one you've used as a bumper. The. The perspective of the song is a grandmother talking to her granddaughter who is gay.

Sarah Sample [00:54:44] Okay. Well, I once had a mother, too. She said the things like mothers do, but mothers can be wrong sometimes. Like back in 1959, she said, he was no good for me. She didn't say but I could see her reasons fell on color lines see his skin was not the same as mine it is simple it isn't hard and all right my r reason to a heart ain't no should or could or would apart you just love who you love you just love who you love love, love, love who you love.

Sarah Sample [00:55:56] Will, I hear your mom's been down on you. I once came down hard on her, too. Our mothers can be wrong sometimes. Oh, I hope she'll come around with time. Two girls can love as big and true as any man and woman do oh, love doesn't draw in color lines no pink or blue no black or white well, it is simple it isn't odd and a rhyme or reason to a heart ain't no shoulda, coulda, woulda

John Dehlin [00:56:48] part

Sarah Sample [00:56:50] you just love who you love you just love who you love Love, love love who you love you just love who you love you just love who you love Love, love love who you love you just love who you love you just love who you love Love, love, love who you love who you love. Thank you.

Deciding to Leave the Church

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 948

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Okay, so how did. So you. You were limping on in your faith and what happened?

Sarah Sample [00:00:39] We're limping on.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] So would people have known you were limping? Like, would ward members have said, well, Sarah's. Something's wrong with Sarah, or were you able to kind of portray the image of all in when you were just kind of suffering inside or something?

Sarah Sample [00:00:58] I definitely was all in, in terms of we were temple going. We had, you know, Relief society teacher or Sunday school teacher. You know, we were really active in our callings. But I always have been an outspoken person, and I've always been a liberal person. And so I don't think that if I had a conversation, I would deny that things were hard for me. And I think it was around that time, probably a year before we decided to leave, that I started reading the Rough Stone Rolling, which I think. I don't know. I think it just, like, opened that door more for me. But it wasn't that I read it and then left. I read it and was like, oh, I feel a little better almost. So then we moved to South Georgia.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] How did it make you feel better?

Sarah Sample [00:01:48] Just because I felt like I was learning truth. Felt like I was like, finally, like, someone was straight talking to me instead of trying to explain something away. They were like, no, this is actually what happened. And I appreciated that. That felt really refreshing. But I remember friends seeing me read that book, start mumbling like, oh, no.

Sarah Sample [00:02:10] Like she's about to go off the deep end. You know, they were. They were getting worried, I think, at that point. So we moved to South Jordan, and my husband's parents go on a mission to Australia, and we are living in their house.

Sarah Sample [00:02:27] And one night, my husband James and I. And I don't remember how the conversation started, but essentially we said to one another that we weren't happy going to church. It didn't feel satisfying anymore to be there. Then one of us said, I don't know if I have a testimony about Joseph Smith. And the other person said, I don't know.

Sarah Sample [00:02:49] I don't know if I have a testimony about Joseph Smith. So the plan was, okay, well, let's get to the bottom of this. We're gonna pray. We're gonna fast. We're gonna read. Let's dive into church history and basically decide what we think about Joseph Smith. And then it just is like the spiral downward.

Sarah Sample [00:03:10] And I don't remember exactly where we started, but, I mean, I think if you just Google anything with the word Joseph, history of Joseph Smith or something, right? Like, you guys know you did it too. Maybe not. I don't know. And so I think. And it was at that time that I discovered, like, New Order Mormons. I was like, what is this?

John Dehlin [00:03:37] What's a new. For those who don't know, what's a New Order Mormon?

Sarah Sample [00:03:40] So does anyone want to say. Should I say nuanced?

John Dehlin [00:03:45] The audience says, I think of it

Sarah Sample [00:03:47] as somebody who may not believe in the church as a. Like, literally, but they want to stay in the church. Right. Maybe because they're married or to someone in the church or maybe just they care about it or they believe some of it. But there's been a crack somewhere in the faith, but they still want to be involved. Right?

John Dehlin [00:04:05] Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:04:06] Okay. So that was like a revelation. I was like, wait a second, there are people who don't believe. I mean, really, like, I didn't under. I didn't know that there were people going to my ward who don't believe, but they're going to my ward still. I'm sure there's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] Yeah, every ward's got them.

Sarah Sample [00:04:25] So. And then I think we looked up, oh, we read the CES letter that'll take you, take you down. And a lot of like, historical journal entries from Joseph's wives. And I remember one that stood out was the. I mean, the 14 year old just stands out because of age, but I think she also stands out because. And what is her name?

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Helen? Mark Kimball, maybe?

Sarah Sample [00:04:49] Yes. This guy is a total expert. It stood out because I remember reading that she was coerced into it.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Right.

Sarah Sample [00:04:58] Wasn't there salvation on the line for her family if she didn't do it? And she was, she didn't want to do it, but she was going to do it for her family. And it made me feel so sick. I just remember feeling really heartbroken and really sad about it all.

Sarah Sample [00:05:16] So we start reading and after a week of kind of researching about the church and Joseph Smith, we decide we do not believe that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. Like, we believe that he wrote it as a man, not as a prophet of God.

Sarah Sample [00:05:36] The whole, like, foundation of the church kind of crumbles for us as it all is connected. Right? I mean, it's hard for one thing to stand without the other. And so we email our bishop and we say that we have decided this is not the only true church and that we are not coming to church again and to please release us from our callings and to please not visit us. And he, of course wrote back and said, please let me, let me come Over. Let me talk to you. And I was about to, like, obediently write, like, what time would work? Like, I'm just, like, so. Just, like, so trained.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Right.

Sarah Sample [00:06:18] Like, I'm like, let me roll the carpet for you. It's right in here. And James, my husband, just said, well, do we believe it or do we not? And if we don't, then why do we need him to come over and talk to us?

Resignation Letter and Reclaiming Identity

John Dehlin [00:06:33] So we're taking some power back.

Sarah Sample [00:06:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Putting up some boundaries.

Sarah Sample [00:06:37] So we rewrite back. No, please don't come. Please don't send anyone. And he. He did. He didn't come.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] He.

Sarah Sample [00:06:43] He respected our wish. And it became very hard because I think in that community, like, every member on our street was Mormon, and they didn't know how to not come to my house in the name of the church. But to come to my house as a neighbor, that was, like, really hard. We became kind of isolated in our. In our street. I did have one friend on the street who. She was just this gift in my life. She really understood my concerns and doubts, and she became like a sanctuary. She was the person that would talk to me every day and really was there for me in a lot of ways. So I hope that everyone has one neighbor on the street.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] You guys still friends?

Sarah Sample [00:07:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] She still in the church.

Sarah Sample [00:07:35] I don't know what the standing is right now, but she knows of the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] Okay, all right, all right. That says something.

Sarah Sample [00:07:45] That says something. But she was very necessary for that phase of transition.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] What do you want when you're going through that? What do you want from a friend or from a ward member? That's a good question. Or sibling or parent? What do you want?

Sarah Sample [00:08:00] Okay, so I'll give you a few reactions, and I told you this before, but when we left, I wanted to compose a detailed email to send to everybody immediately. Like, let me tell you all the things. I love you. I hope you can accept our children.

Sarah Sample [00:08:18] You know, the whole thing. You're laughing. You did it too, didn't you? Yeah, but I think it felt important to me to declare something. It felt important for me to, like, draw the line and say, like, this. This is where I stand now. And as soon as I did that, I was amazed at this outpouring of love. I really. I don't know if just. I have really compassionate people around me, but I did have some people that were really upset. But I also feel in general that I had many people call or write immediately and say, of course we love you. Of course we love your children.

Sarah Sample [00:08:53] You're always welcome. My mom went to her bishop. She was primary president in bountiful. So you know how many kids that is. It's like a small village of children that she's in charge of. And she asked to be released from her calling so that she could spend more time with me. We were only going to be there a year more, and I thought that was pretty amazing.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] This is believing mom.

Sarah Sample [00:09:16] This is believing mom. True believer.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] But she's like, I'm gonna spend as much time with my daughter.

Sarah Sample [00:09:22] She was like, yeah, I need. I want to, like, be in my daughter.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] Not to try and, like, intervene or save you or convert you.

Sarah Sample [00:09:28] No, just to love me, like, be with my kids.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Mom of the century.

Sarah Sample [00:09:32] Oh, yeah. My mom is mom of the century. Yeah, she's amazing. So she was so present and still is. I think that for my mom, it was especially heartbreaking because my other siblings in my family had already left the church, so I was the last hope. And we had been married in the temple. It kind of, like, it had all followed the line that I think they wanted us to. So I know that was really hard for my mom. And then my husband had no interest in telling anybody. He just was like, I'm gonna live my life. If someone asks questions, they can talk to me. There was no need to declare anything, and I think that's probably the healthier way. I don't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] You said, like, if he's at a family reunion and he's drinking a beer and someone wants to ask a question, they can ask it, right?

Sarah Sample [00:10:24] Yeah. He was like, I don't understand why we need to tell everybody. He was like, if I'm having a beer at dinner and they want to talk about it, like, I'm happy to

John Dehlin [00:10:31] talk about it, bring it up, but,

Sarah Sample [00:10:33] like, why do I need to. Why do I need to, like, jump out and be like, I'm not Mormon, you know? Yeah. So different approaches to leaving. But then comes the long slog of messy work of kind of, like, stuff starting over.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] Yeah. Like, what were the hard parts?

Sarah Sample [00:10:53] Oh, so we left five years ago. And I think initially there's something exhilarating about it because you all of a sudden feel this freedom of, I can do whatever I want, and I can think whatever I want, and I can have compassion and love for whoever I want.

Sarah Sample [00:11:14] Where would I want? You realize how many rules there were, I think, when you leave, because all of a sudden, no one is, like, defining what. What it should look like anymore. So I think what has been challenging for us Leaving Mormonism is just recalculating what marriage looks like after leaving. Because James and I are very different people and different interests. And you kind of had this foundation, this floor that you were both standing on very firmly. And then when that's gone, you look at each other and say, like, do we like each other? Like, wait, are you still the person that I choose? Because we're so different. And that was a long time ago that we made these commitments and, like, is this still gonna work? And.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] And you had two kids by that point, right?

Sarah Sample [00:12:07] Two kids, yeah. And so I. I wanna play a song that's about that.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Is that okay? Is that okay, everyone, if she plays this song?

Sarah Sample [00:12:18] So this was interesting. I wrote this song. It's called Raised that Way, and it's about our experience being raised Mormon. And then kind of what it looks like when you look at each other and say, what are we going to do now? But what was interesting was recording this. I have several friends who are still Mormon, and they're. I said something like, we had to go through this big renewal of kind of the choice to be together because we left the church. And they said, oh, no. Every relationship has to do that. Like, every relationship's. Once you go through having children and through moving and jobs, and you're 15 years in, and then you look at each other and say, like, do we still want to do this? And so I don't think that it's just a Mormon thing.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Is this an alternative tuning? She's doing an alternative tuning, everybody. That's sophisticated. That means she knows what she's doing as she's tuning. Esther Perel is a famous kind of psychologist, marriage and family therapist, and she says everyone will have at least three marriages in their lifetime. It will either be to the same person or to different people, but they'll still have at least three marriages.

Sarah Sample [00:13:37] I love that. I think that's true. So this is called Raised that way.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Looking in the rear view about choices we made we were just kids and we did what kids did when you're raised that way. We had a wedding, flowers and cakes that night you took off my dress and we fumbled through the rest. Cause we promised we'd wait And I'm looking at you, you're looking at me we are different than what we used to be. So please tell me what are we gonna do?

John Dehlin [00:14:56] We started a family While you were buried in school we were just kids and we did what kids did when you play by the rules the baby kept crying and I cried along too Put my Dream in a drawer who would ask for more? Only a fool and I'm looking at you, you're looking at me we are different than what we used to Mr. Be so please tell me what are we gonna do?

John Dehlin [00:15:56] We grew up together and we left side by side no longer children so no, now we get to decide. And I'm looking at you, you're looking at me we are so different than what we used to be so now luckily now we get a chance Baby, I choose you I choose you Oh, I choose you. Thank you.

Songs About the Faith Transition Experience

John Dehlin [00:17:05] There may or may not be tears in the studio right now. I'm not going to say for sure.

Sarah Sample [00:17:11] It's debatable.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] Couple responses from our listening audience. Rachel Wright's CES letter was it for me, and no man knows my history. She's talking about her faith journey and how Fawn Brody and Jeremy Runnels played a part. Lisa writes, to be seen as the same kind person that I am and always have been. Don't judge a book by its cover until you've read the story inside. So she's wanting to be understood. Jenny writes, I wish my family would have asked me why I left. I think those of us that leave desperately wish to be understood. Melinda writes, my husband doesn't need to declare it, but it is important for me to declare it so. Cause she's talking about different people have different needs in that journey. Caleb writes, her songs are incredibly awesome.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] So there may be may or may not be tears in our listening audience as well.

Sarah Sample [00:18:07] This is really fun for me to share that song here in this context because I don't perform to Mormon audiences that often. And so I think it's powerful to sing a song like that for people who have been through the same thing. So I'm glad you guys are here.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] Talk about, was there putting it in the drawer? Putting dreams in the drawer? Was there a line about that?

Sarah Sample [00:18:30] Yeah. So I have a very, like, specific memory of James and I had been married for a few years, and I was pursuing my career in music, and he was going to medical school, and we were kind of figuring out how that would go.

Sarah Sample [00:18:49] And then we kind of talked. Well, I think we should have kids. Not because I think we wanted kids, but just because we're supposed to have kids. And so I remember James was at school and I sat at the kitchen table and I, like, looked at my birth control for an hour and threw the birth control away and sobbed. I felt intellectually I knew I wanted children someday, but I didn't have any Desire to get pregnant. Any desire to have a baby then?

Sarah Sample [00:19:23] And then of course, like, yeah, when you stop using birth control, you have a baby usually sometimes even when you don't use. I mean, sometimes even when you do use birth control, you have a baby. But so I got pregnant and we moved to Seattle and I was in Seattle, which is this blossoming art scene and music scene. And so much is going on and I am losing my mind trying to figure out how to be a new mom. I just feel so overwhelmed and so in the weeds.

Sarah Sample [00:19:57] And I just wanted someone to tell me how to do it right, you know. And I don't know if that's my personality or leftover from the church, but I just felt like there has got to be some clear instructions on how to do this well, and there was none. You know, there's so many opinions about like breastfeeding, formula feeding, how to hold the baby, co sleeping, you know, all of these things. And I just felt so lost in it all and overwhelmed and also felt like this should be like my true calling in life and I'm like raising a baby.

Sarah Sample [00:20:34] But I also am having to give up this art and touring and having opportunities that I would have had if I hadn't have had a kid. And I think part of, for me, the journey in the last five years is I've really had to mourn that. I've had to mourn that. I feel that choices were changed or taken from me because I didn't have all the information.

Sarah Sample [00:20:59] And I've led a beautiful life and I have. I of course, love my children. They're the most important two people on earth to me. But would I have done things differently? I don't know because I can't go back.

Sarah Sample [00:21:15] But I do think that for a career as a woman. Most of the touring female singer songwriters that I know live in a music city. They live in Nashville or LA or New York, and they are on the road all the time in order to make it a sustainable profession. And so one thing that happened to me in the last even two years was I started having this panic of that like, no one's holding me up anymore, the angels aren't there anymore to make sure it all works out. And I was raised by a single mom and I just had this fear of what if something happens in my marriage and I am now responsible to take care of my children.

Sarah Sample [00:21:59] I have two beautiful daughters and can I do it being a folk singer? And the answer is no, I can't. The joke is that there are Hundreds of dollars to be made in folk music. Hundreds. And so this prompted me to decide that I wanted to take power back into my life. And I decided that I wanted to go to nursing school because I wanted to, like, have a card in my pocket that felt like, no matter what, I can take care of myself and I can take care of my kids.

Sarah Sample [00:22:35] And I also, like, love nursing. So it's not just like, you know, it was a wonderful thing to learn, and I'm a lifelong learner, but it definitely. That was the change in feeling that you have a secure net underneath you to feeling that you're on your own in life made me want to be able to have a career if I needed it, that could support myself.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Beautiful. Yeah. And that so many women that listen to this podcast are just trying to go through that journey almost for the first time of like asking, who am I? What do I love? What do I care about? What do I want to do with the rest of my life? How do I pick up and have a career or a passion or a profession?

Sarah Sample [00:23:21] I heard some statistic on NPR that was talking about the baby boomer female generation that's coming up that so many of them stayed at home, raised babies, their husbands moved on in their careers, and then at some point they split. The husband finds someone else, or they get divorced, and then they are left entering a job market with like no skills, no way to, like make a living, and they're competing against new grads coming out of college who know how to use a computer and on and on. And I even watched that with my own mom. I mean, I think they sold their house. And after kind of the money ran out from selling that house, she had to get a full time job, which is why we moved to Utah.

Sarah Sample [00:24:02] And luckily she had some friends in an industry here, but she had no experience in that industry and luckily was able to build a career from it. But I think there's a lot of women who find themselves in a situation where they can't make a living easily on their own once they've raised kids. And I think that is kind of this struggle of being a woman and being a mom is how to do it all. And I think that women are expected to do it all, and it can be really daunting.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Well, this is great. Juliet writes, amen, ladies. Be able to be self sufficient. The thank you, Julie. Juliet. Cheryl writes, beautiful song rings true. Daniel writes, that's so beautiful. I love it. So the fans are loving the music. So are we.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Thanks.

Life After Leaving and Finding a New Path

John Dehlin [00:24:54] So where does that Take you. So you've been out five years and you got your nursing degree. So what else do you want to share with us about your journey and the songs?

Sarah Sample [00:25:05] We moved to Wyoming, but before we moved there, I went on.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] You did to pay back loans, right?

Sarah Sample [00:25:11] Yeah. So there's a great program called the Whammy program, which you. If you come back to your state, which is usually a rural state, and work for three years, they'll pay off a portion of your debt. So we moved back to Wyoming, where James is from, to do that and he goes for an interview for this job. And I've never been to Sheridan, but we go to Sheridan in May, which if you're going to come to Sheridan, come in May or June. It is so gorgeous, y'. All. You need to get there.

Sarah Sample [00:25:42] It's just like rolling grass, hills and fields. And there seems to be this balance of wilderness with humanity. Like, I can drive five miles in any direction from where I live and see pheasants, eagles, antelope, mule deer, white tailed deer, elk, I mean, everything you can imagine. And so James goes to his interview and I go on a drive. I've never been to Sheridan. And as I'm driving on this dirt road 20 miles, I pull over and there is a lone tree on this hillside. And under the tree is this mule deer. This like stag. My husband tells me that's not what people call it.

Sarah Sample [00:26:25] They don't call it a stag, but that sounds more poetic. So it's this mule buck under this tree. And he stands up and looks at me, but he doesn't move. And I stand looking at him. And red winged blackbirds are flying all over like fence post to fence post. And I had never seen a red winged blackbird.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] They're gorgeous.

Sarah Sample [00:26:46] They're gorgeous. And as I'm seeing this scene unfold, I find myself just weeping on the side of the road. I'm just losing it. And in my head I like hear the words, there's room for you here. Like, that thought comes to my mind, there's room for you here.

Sarah Sample [00:27:06] And I am crying on the side of the road, like surrounded by wilderness. And have I think what I would equate as far as like spiritually speaking, I think it's really hard to then discern once you leave. Like spirituality in general. Right. We didn't really go into that, but I think my husband and I both are people that go to the wilderness to find peace or to find rejuvenation.

Sarah Sample [00:27:36] And when we left, initially we wanted to find another Church. I felt like I wanted the structure of a church. So we tried like a Methodist church, we tried a Unitarian church, we tried several churches and nothing seemed to really fit. And so James said, why don't we just start going to the mountains on Sunday? Every Sunday we go to the mountains and we go for a hike and we have a picnic and we take our kids and it just became this way that we live in the world and makes a lot of sense to me. So I have this whole scene unfold.

Sarah Sample [00:28:11] There's room for me in Wyoming. I mean there's physical room, but it also felt like there's room to be whoever you are as this new person. And so I write a song.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] So this is the title track.

Sarah Sample [00:28:26] This is the title track, guys, from

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Sarah Sample's new album, Red Wing, right?

Sarah Sample [00:28:32] Yes. And this my friend Paul Jacobson, who's an amazing songwriter. I sent him this story and I said, we co written several songs together and I said, do you have any interest in helping me write this song? And. And he said, absolutely. And it took us a year to write the song.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] It's a long time.

Sarah Sample [00:28:53] It is a long time. There was a lot of like we got the lyrics down first, but then we couldn't find like quite the right melody of it all. And then it finally came together really beautifully. Okay, this is funny too. So as I'm seeing these red winged blackbirds, I'm like, what is this rare bird? I've never seen this bird before. I was like, only in Wyoming. So I go home and I like Google and it's like the red winged blackbird, the most popular prevalent bird across North America. It's like in every state, in every, you know, like. But I think there's a. There's this parallel in that too where it feels like something so common could be so spectacular and you just hadn't seen it before. And I loved that. So this is red wing. Hold on one second. It's better if it's in tune.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] I met God in a high desert sunrise Neither of us said a word I found God in the quiet of the golden plains on the red, red wing of blackbirds I saw a stag in the shade of a cottonwood he looked my way but didn't stir

John Dehlin [00:30:41] he

John Dehlin [00:30:42] held his ground Now I hold mine with the red red wings of blackbird. Past the pavement past the roads Past the world that I used to know well that's where I wanna go. When well I took my daughters to the woods where their hearts would not be cursed where they could Sail above the trees on the red, red wings of blackbirds Regret, regret I've had my share so many they all just blur But I'll burn them bright I'll burn them fast on the red, red wings of the blackburns well past the pavement, past the road Past the world that I used to know well, that's where I wanna go.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] There's hope in the newborn baby and in the driver of the hearse in prayers and dares and says subwayfares and on the red wings of blackbirds. Well, someday soon my life will pass But I've got some living to do first still when it is my time to go Take me on the red, red wings of blackbirds.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] We're blackbirds singing in the dead of night Take these broken wings and learn to fly all your life you were only waiting For a moment to arrive Blackbird, blackbird.

Sarah Sample [00:34:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] That was a Beatles reference. Yeah, that's my favorite group.

Sarah Sample [00:34:12] Threw that in.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] Yeah, I threw that in. You're doing so much in that song. Oh, my gosh, that's a great song.

Sarah Sample [00:34:20] Thank you. I wrote that song with my friend Paul Jacobson. He's. He's a wizard.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] So can we talk about the song for just a second?

John Dehlin [00:34:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] One of the things that jumped out at me, you know, part of what unhealthy organizations do, and every organization is unhealthy, so this isn't targeting Mormonism. And I'll say as another disclaimer that I think Mormonism can raise wonderful people, does raise wonderful people.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] So it's not that the church can't do that, but one of the things unhealthy organizations do is they send you messages of fear around what happens if you leave. And one of the main binding things that keeps so many people in the church, and that kept, frankly, Margi and I in the church for so many years, is like, well, you can't raise a decent human outside of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] And that just keeps a lot of people in. It's like, if I don't raise my kids in the church, they'll become, you know, crack dealers and prostitutes and homeless, you know. But one of the things you say in that song is that for you, your leaving the church was an act for your daughters. Is that what I heard you say in the song?

Sarah Sample [00:35:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] Talk about that. Because I don't think we're condemning Mormonism as an unfit place to raise children. But for you, why was that important?

Sarah Sample [00:35:41] Well, I think it's really dangerous for someone to think they have all the answers. I think That's a dangerous idea. And so I think. I think when you are raising children and you have the answer for everything, then where is their curiosity? Or, like, how are they going to think through things or decide for themselves eventually? Something.

Sarah Sample [00:36:06] So I love not knowing. I don't know. I'm so happy. I don't have many answers now. Like, it gets so simple to me once we stepped away from Mormonism that, like, I want to teach my children to be good people, to love others, to treat people with respect, to do their best, you know, like, really simple things. But I don't have to have all the answers, and they don't have to either. And frankly, they shouldn't. They shouldn't have all the answers to everything.

Sarah Sample [00:36:35] So I feel like, you know, when my daughter comes home from school and says so and so said, I don't believe in God, and what is God? I can say, well, God has a lot of different names. Some people call God Jesus, some people call God Jehovah, some people call God Buddha, some, you know, and we get to talk through the ideas of that exists within society without there having to be a right or wrong answer.

Sarah Sample [00:37:05] And one thing that I've asked my mom to do, because she is Mormon, I don't want her to pretend she's not Mormon or to lie about what she believes. But I ask her to preface it with, well, this is what I think.

Sarah Sample [00:37:19] But there's a lot of different ideas about it, you know, or there's a lot of different ways to think, to feel about it. This is one way to feel about it, because I want my children to, like, be open to the wonder of it all and to not feel they have to know everything.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Yeah. What was the line about? Driver of a hearse. Did I hear that right?

Sarah Sample [00:37:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] There's beauty. What's the line?

Sarah Sample [00:37:43] Yeah. So there. Let's see. There's hope in the newborn baby and in the driver of the hearse.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] How was there hope in the driver of a hearse?

Sarah Sample [00:37:55] I just think, like, I love transitions. I'm just so drawn to, like, the vulnerable parts of life. And I feel like. And Paul came up with that line of there's hope in the New York newborn baby and in the driver of the hearse. And we talked about it, and I love the idea that, like, we're all gonna die, like, we're all vulnerable. And there's something really beautiful about a new birth in the world, and there's something equally beautiful about somebody passing on to the other side of it in the right circumstance.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] You know, do you.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] And it's okay if this isn't the time to answer the question, but do you. So what. What are your beliefs now about a God or an afterlife? Or do you.

Sarah Sample [00:38:35] I don't know. Yeah, I. I don't know. And I don't. I'm not, like, seeking to know. I just want to be present in the world and show love to my fellow man and be present for my children. Keep it pretty simple.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] We have someone wanting to clap over here. You can clap. All right, beautiful.

Kintsugi and Finding Beauty in Brokenness

Sarah Sample [00:39:05] So I have another idea I want to talk about, which is. Have you guys ever heard of kintsugi? Kintsugi is.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] Sounds Japanese.

Sarah Sample [00:39:16] Yeah. So it means gold. Joinery is how it translates. And it's the process of, like, when pots or pottery would be broken that they would repair them with enamel that was lined with gold because they wanted to show the break.

Sarah Sample [00:39:34] And the break became part of the piece, and a beautiful part of the piece, and highlighting it, like, made the piece more valuable. And so I've thought often about this idea of how this transition out of Mormonism. I want to be that. I want to be the broken parts are lined with gold and something that I can comfortably talk about and engage with people and that it doesn't have to be this, like, shameful or hidden part of my life, but it's like accepting the whole story. I don't want to pretend that I wasn't raised Mormon. I'm very grateful for so many parts of being raised Mormon, but I also don't choose that for my life.

Sarah Sample [00:40:19] And I think there is a beauty in the breaking. So I want to play a song about that, and it's called Heart that Falls Apart.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Okay. Off of Red Wing, Sarah Sample's new album@sarahsample.com Check her out tomorrow night, Friday, 7:00pm at the Post. The Post.

Sarah Sample [00:40:40] The Post Theater.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] Right.

Sarah Sample [00:40:42] And you know what?

John Dehlin [00:40:42] University of Utah, right?

Sarah Sample [00:40:45] Yeah, University of Utah. There's different ticket prices. Honestly, if you just show up and you're like, I just have to see this girl in person. Like, my mom will probably. Probably let you in for free. You never know.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Shout out to Sarah's mom.

Sarah Sample [00:40:59] Yeah, I do have the best mom. This is actually about my mom in some ways. So my mom is a crier. Anyone here a crier in life? And I was really embarrassed as a kid, and then the gene activated in my system, and then I became a crier.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] You had an epigenetic moment.

Sarah Sample [00:41:24] Yeah. And all of a sudden, I was a crier. So I cry at things that are sad. But I also just cry all the time. So I cry at almost every movie preview like, that I see.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Preview.

Sarah Sample [00:41:36] Yeah. And like, you know those Olympic commercials, the Visa Olympic commercials. The worst. Like, they get me every time. And like nature documentaries. Whoever narrates, you're like these penguins, you know, it's like I heard there's a new march of the penguins coming, so I'll be crying at that. But I believe in vulnerability and I believe in telling the whole story. And like the pottery being broken, I think there's something really beautiful in breaking.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] My mother has a tender heart. They say I got the same one right from the start. Some people get their daddy's laugh. Well, I got a heart that falls

Sarah Sample [00:42:38] apart splits right in half.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] I'm not the steady arc and I'm not the solid ground no shoulder to lean on But I'll give a heart that falls apart A heart that falls apart oh, you'll never cry alone when I'm around. I wish that I could draw that line but it's not the way this heart was designed. Enjoy or sorrow everything while I got a heart that finds Falls apart in everything. I'm not the steady ar and I'm not the solid grow no shoulder to lean on But I'll give a heart that falls apart? I'll give a heart that it falls apart? You'll never cry alone when I'm around.

Sarah Sample [00:44:13] I say let it come

John Dehlin [00:44:17] all the waves of sorrow one by one I will sink by your side and then I'll pray the moon to change her tide so when we feel the sun our two hearts will have become one? I'm not the steady arc and I'm not the solid ground no shoulder to But I'll give a heart that falls apart? I'll give a heart that falls apart oh, you'll never cry alone? You'll never cry alone? You'll never cry alone? You'll never cry alone Cry alone, cry alone? You'll never cry alone when I'm around. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] All right, let's get some comments in. Melissa Wells, one of my childhood friends growing up in Houston, Texas. Katie, Texas. She was an important part of my youth. She came out as lesbian post Mormon decades before I ever questioned the church. She figured it out early. She. She was in Austin last time I heard, but she says going to buy Sarah's CD now. Thanks for sharing. So Sarah sample.com support this wonderful music. Lisa writes how many children will find themselves lost as they grow due to being trained who they should be? If we would just Let them soar and fly their own journey in life. Let them take different roads. Let them create a beautiful journey of their own. How so we become our true selves. How do we become our true selves if we aren't given the chance to write the story?

Sarah Sample [00:46:41] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] That's good, Lisa. That's good stuff. You should become a songwriter. Singer, songwriter. Melissa writes, there's hope in all of it. Nice. In the song with Redbird. What is it?

Sarah Sample [00:46:57] Red Wing.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Red Wing. There's kind of a universalistic message there about there's beauty in everything. Right?

Sarah Sample [00:47:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Isn't that a part of what you're saying? There is, yeah. That reminds me of the song Holy now by Peter Meyer. I don't know if you ever heard that song. You heard that? Sam writes great song. Darren writes beautiful. Jenny writes, no matter our relationship to religion, I think we are all looking for a place we feel that we belong.

Sarah Sample [00:47:23] I love it. Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening. Can I actually. Can I read a poem?

John Dehlin [00:47:27] You can do whatever you want. I mean, within reason. Yeah.

Sarah Sample [00:47:32] Dance party.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] Don't say that. Are the songs over? Well, I mean, no.

Sarah Sample [00:47:36] Yeah, I mean, I don't know how many more songs I have left.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] Oh, well, just. You keep going till you're done. Because we're not done until you tell us we're done, and then we're done, and then we'll have lunch.

Sarah Sample [00:47:49] Yeah, I think. I think we're pretty close to being done. I mean, unless. I would love to see if any of you have any questions. There's always, like, more to the story. And I don't want to leave anything out if I. If you feel there's something that you're interested in knowing.

Poetry, Wilderness, and Nature as Sanctuary

Sarah Sample [00:48:06] So as part of my concert, I've incorporated two poems. I want to read one of those poems that goes back to the idea that wilderness can kind of become a church. So this is a poem by Wendell Berry called the Peace of Wild Things.

Sarah Sample [00:48:26] When despair for the world grows in me and I wake in the night at the least sound in fear of what my life and my children's life may be, I go and lie down where the wood drake rests Its beauty on the water and the great heron feeds.

Sarah Sample [00:48:43] I come into the peace of wild things who do not tax their lives with forethought of grief. I come into the presence of still water and I feel above me the day blind stars waiting for their light. And for a time I rest in the grace of the world and am free. Go, Wendell Berry.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] Yeah. If Margi loves it, I'M a fan. Margi loves Wendell Berry. So you, Margi, need to hang up.

Sarah Sample [00:49:12] I want to.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] So why'd you read that?

Sarah Sample [00:49:17] I think that it just is essentially the heart of this record. I do feel despair often in the world and I feel like when I don't know what else to do, then you need to step outside, look up at the stars, turn off your phone, see some wildlife around you. I think that is a really centering thing to do.

John Dehlin [00:49:42] Has that become your divine, so to speak?

Sarah Sample [00:49:45] I think so, yeah. It definitely is for my husband. He is a big outdoor enthusiast and is when I met him, like rock climbing, whitewater rafting, guide light, you know, marathon runner. So he definitely makes time to be in wilderness every week. But I think that's one of the great lessons he's kind of taught to our whole family is that's a really good way to get your heart back on track.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Any questions? Just one sec, Just one sec.

Guest [00:50:25] Just curious what life is like in Sheridan. How diverse is that area? Or is it still very lds, you know?

Sarah Sample [00:50:32] No, it is not LDS at all. And it feels really wonderful to. I feel like that was a really important step for my family to take is to move out of Mormon culture because now we get to just be people. You know, there's no one wondering if I'm going to church or am I Mormon or am I not Mormon? The only Mormon that I know in Sheridan is my dentist. I'm sure there's more, but you really just get to meet people for who they are. And it's interesting because I find myself when I'm in Utah, I start making assumptions like if I see someone and I can see a garment line or I think they might be Mormon, then I'm already assuming that I know what they think about things.

Sarah Sample [00:51:14] And so I'm not going to have the same conversation that I would as if I knew nothing about them. The other thing that's been really good for us living in Sheridan is it's a very conservative community. There isn't a ton of diversity.

Sarah Sample [00:51:30] But I am very liberal leaning. And so I've. Instead of being surrounded by like minded people, I'm able to have people I really love and care about and we disagree very strongly on some really big issues. And I think that's important to have those conversations and to be put in places where we're forced to talk through things instead of just say, well, my side's over here and we all agree and you guys are over there and you all agree.

Sarah Sample [00:51:56] I'VE had some really interesting conversations over the last few years because I don't agree with everyone around me, so that's been a good lesson for me.

Guest [00:52:07] And then just one comment is, I'd never heard of your music before, but I love finding new music, and I think I've listened to red wing probably 30 times in the last two days. So I think my spirituality is music now. And your music really has been a revelation. I truly enjoyed all of it.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] So, Jeff, what are some of your favorite songs, and why Red Wing?

Guest [00:52:28] Just the whole overall message, because I connect with that, with finding the spirituality in the outdoors and in music and in new places. And also the dance song. I had to pull over in my car because I relate to you.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] Love, Michaela. Yeah.

Guest [00:52:43] But I also had a rough dad, and so I come from a different angle because my mom would say, learn from this and don't be like this. So I was very purposeful, so I'm kind of flipping it, But I put everything I could into being a good father and that I didn't have, and that just really touched me.

Sarah Sample [00:52:58] So thank you.

Guest [00:52:59] Thank you.

Sarah Sample [00:53:00] Thank you for listening.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] Thanks, Jeff.

Sarah Sample [00:53:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] Any final questions? You got to have at least one more. We'll take multiple. Unless you're done, and then that's okay, too.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] Let me think.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] And you can play something from a previous album if you. If we have to. You know, we have to have the encore where we're, like, all, like, flashing, lighting the lighters, and, like, clapping. Do we want another song from Sarah? Yeah, you can't. You can't just get off easy unless you want to.

Sarah Sample [00:53:34] No.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Because you're in charge.

Sarah Sample [00:53:38] This is a song that I wrote for my daughter June, when I was starting to kind of get back on the road touring, and it was really hard to leave. And yet it also felt this really important part of me that I wanted to nurture and to say, like, it's okay to go, like, play music and come back to your little fam. But I wanted to write a song to my daughter that is essentially a love song when you have to leave.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] And is this on RedWeek or.

Sarah Sample [00:54:13] This is on an album called Someday, Someday.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Okay.

Sarah Sample [00:54:17] But all of my music is on itunes or my website or Spotify, so you can.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] And the album this is on is.

Sarah Sample [00:54:24] It's called Someday. Someday.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] The album, yeah. And the song.

Sarah Sample [00:54:28] No, the song is called Every Time I Go.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Okay. Every time I go.

Sarah Sample [00:54:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] And is this your final song?

Sarah Sample [00:54:32] This is my final song.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] All right, you guys, this is the final song by Sarah Sample. You can check her out@SarahSample.com she's performing tomorrow night, Friday, June 15th. Yeah, 7:00pm at the Post.

Sarah Sample [00:54:49] And my whole band is coming with the band and they're so great.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] You guys don't think that just because you listen to this that you've got the Sarah Sample experience. Yeah. Special kudos if you go. And you're a Mormon Stories listener.

Sarah Sample [00:55:03] Yeah, tell me.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] I'll take you to ice cream if you go see Sarah.

Sarah Sample [00:55:09] John, I want to say before I end, thank you so much for all you do for this community. My husband and I listened regularly. We just devoured your podcast while we were transitioning out and your voice is so familiar and wonderful and I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] We love having you.

Sarah Sample [00:55:35] And thank you all for coming and taking a chance on the folk singer. And to Cody and Tim and Amy, thank you

John Dehlin [00:55:55] to our donors and supporters.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] Every time I leave I feel like I am free falling real slow

Sarah Sample [00:56:16] My

John Dehlin [00:56:16] stomach in the sky and my heart a battle cry yes you have have won me over Every time I go I give my heart to you to keep you from the cold whisper untruth Let nothing, no nothing baby could keep my love from you. And when you cannot hear me whisper in your ear that you are my lucky star and the bully in your mind is saying words unkind so loud that you start to hear it every time I go well I give my heart to you to keep to keep you from the cold whisper untrue that nothing, no nothing could keep my love from you well give a kiss come on please Another who grants the wish to stay forever in my arms in my arms, in my arms Every time I go I give my heart to you to keep Keep you from the cold whisper on truth Nothing, no nothing be baby.

Sarah Sample [00:59:24] Thanks guys.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Thank you.

Closing Reflections and Where to Find the Music

John Dehlin [00:59:37] That's sarahsample.com on Spotify, on iTunes@Sarahsample.com I'm just going to read one little comment from Melissa Wells again, someone I grew up with in the Mormon Church in Katy, Texas. She writes, I referenced her earlier. She writes, still in Austin, still lesbian, and to her point, have raised an incredible young man outside the church. Ironically, my father's last blessing. And her father was my Sunday school teacher and youth leader for many years.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] The last blessing he gave, literally on his deathbed was to Melissa's son. Although all Melissa's siblings have left the church, her dad, who passed being a firm believer, showed her son what unconditional love really is. So thanks, Melissa, for joining us. Thanks, Sarah, for this Wonderful music.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] Summer Peterson writes. Hi, Sarah. I think you know her, but please share Sarah's music. Please take this post on Facebook and share it on your walls. Please tell everyone to buy Sarah's music. It deserves that. We need to support our artists, so spread the words. Share this episode with family and friends.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] Please show up at all Sarah's performances and send her your money. Thank you so much for spending time with us and good luck with this new album. Tell your husband and two daughters we want to meet him. Someday.

Sarah Sample [01:01:06] I want to go on a cruise. That sounds really fun.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] All right, Bahamas. Well, we'd love to have. You can perform.

Sarah Sample [01:01:11] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] Bring some CDs. You can sell them. This has just been lovely. Thanks to everyone who's joined us and sincerely thanks to Tim Curry, to Cody Layton, and to Amy Grubbs for making this morning possible. Thanks to our live studio audience. Can I give my studio audience an applause? This is super fun. I want to do this again. It just kind of brings a fun spirit here. We sold out. All the seats are taken. We're sold out.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] And thanks to all of you who support Mormon Stories podcast. If you don't support the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories, donations are tax deductible. We're financially transparent and they go towards supporting people in transition. That's what we do in or out of the church. So please support us if you do support us. Thank you. If you don't, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button at the right, top right of the page. 10, 15, 20, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford allows us to keep doing this. And we will keep doing this until you stop supporting us. That's how the deal works.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] And then we'll go do other things. How does that sound? But in the meantime, thanks to everyone who keeps this stuff alive. We're gonna be doing more of this kind of stuff in the, in the weeks and months ahead. So please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you ideas if you have ideas. If you're a singer songwriter, you can send us your songs and we'll put em in our bumpers. And if you're coming out with the album and it's worthy like this one is, like Red Wing certainly is.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] We'll have you tell your story and sing your songs right here at Mormon Story Studio. Anything else you want to tell people if they want to support or follow you?

Sarah Sample [01:02:49] No. I do, though, want to just make a plug for the arts in general, which is that we live in a day and age where technology has made it so easy for people to create music and art and photography.

Sarah Sample [01:03:03] But because of that, people have started again, accessing all of the arts for free. And therefore, people who buy music, like most people I know, have subscriptions to Spotify. But artists don't really make any money from Spotify. And so you can have millions of plays on Spotify, and artists are not getting that money.

Sarah Sample [01:03:25] And so if you have Spotify, that's great, but buy the CD2 or go on iTunes and purchase music. Purchase the things that you care about. Put money where your mouth is. And like John said, you know, this same thing with a podcast, that if you listen and if you care, it's so important to show up financially to support the arts and to keep them alive.

John Dehlin [01:03:47] And if someone just wants to send you money, can they just send you money?

Sarah Sample [01:03:50] No, I don't really do that.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] Put a PayPal button up, Sarah. Sam, it's called PayPal.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] I'll do it for you.

Sarah Sample [01:03:56] Never done a donation.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] Send Sarah money.

Sarah Sample [01:03:59] But what I do do, I do love to play house concerts across the U.S. so if you want me to come sing in your living room, I'll come to you.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Okay, so you're for hire. So if you want to bring Sarah Sample to your home and do a party. A house party?

Sarah Sample [01:04:11] Yeah, a listening concert.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] How do they reach out to you?

Sarah Sample [01:04:13] So just. You can email me. It's just Sarah Sample dot com. You can access that on my website, too. But I love connecting and I love people, and I'd love to come sing for you.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] And you're so. Your songs are amazing, and you're. You deserve to be, like, a global sensation.

Sarah Sample [01:04:29] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] What? That. What's happened? What, the world's not right?

Sarah Sample [01:04:33] Well, I mean, I could. That's a long answer.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] But that's another podcast.

Sarah Sample [01:04:37] That's another podcast. There's a. There's a lot of. A lot of people in the river right now all competing for the same minuscule nothing, so.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Well, it's not for lack of talent or. So thank you. S. All right, everyone. Thanks for joining us. Take care. We'll see you again soon. Come on.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.