Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 12, 2017, and as always, I'm very excited to be bringing you another episode of Mormon Stories. Today's episode is broadcasted live on Facebook Live and we are going to be continuing our series on Losing the Lamanites. So for those of you who have been following, we've interviewed two Lamanites so far. The first was Vanya Moore, who was raised in Brazil.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] And then the second episode was Hiram Joe, who was Navajo, is Navajo and was primarily, I believe, in New Mexico, if my memories serving me correctly. And we've received a lot of good feedback about those episodes and a lot of people have been very interested. A lot of people have connected with what we've been trying to do, and we've had a few more people volunteer to be interviewed to tell their story.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] And so today we're going to be interviewing Sarah Newcomb. Before we bring Sarah on though, we just want to thank everyone who's joining us live on Facebook Live. We really appreciate when people are able to make comments or ask questions. That makes the Facebook Live part really interesting. So we've got Cody Layton ready to moderate comments and questions and please start them coming. If you've got anything you want to share, please do really quickly. We want to make sure everyone understands that this podcast is brought to you by the Open Stories Foundation.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Those of you who are donators, you make this possible. So we want to thank everyone who makes this possible through their monthly donations. For those of you who don't yet support the Open Stories foundation through donation, we want to ask you to consider doing so. Mormonstories.org you can click on the donate button. 10 or 15 or $20 a month can really make a difference between us surviving and us not being able to bring you this programming. Also, just very briefly want to mention that we have several upcoming events that we want to make sure everyone knows about.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] We're coming to Dallas, Texas in July. I believe it's the 7th and 8th, but we want to make sure if any of you want to come to a workshop or retreat that's been specially designed for people either experiencing a Mormon transition or who have left the church and are rebuilding a life after a transition.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] July 7th and 8th will be in Dallas, Texas. August 11th through 12th will be with Dr. Julie D' Azevedo Hanks in Salt Lake City, Utah county, for a mixed faith marriage retreat. If any of you are in a mixed faith marriage and want to try and make the marriage stronger. This retreat will do that. So please consider joining us.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington. October 20th through 22nd will be in Sydney, Australia. November 9th through 10th will be in the Bay Area, San Francisco. And of course, we've got the Mormon Stories cruise to the Bahamas based on listener demand in October of 2018. If you're interested in any of those events, just go to mormonstories.org events and register. We would love to have you.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Okay, so that's enough in terms of news and business. Excuse me, I'm having a frog in my throat. Without any further ado, again, it's June 12, and we're really excited to welcome Sarah Newcomb onto the podcast. Sarah, thanks for joining us.

Sarah Newcomb [00:04:24] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] All right, so how did you hear about this series, Losing the Lamanites?

Sarah Newcomb [00:04:31] I actually have kind of followed Mormon stories for the past year. Before that, I was unaware that Mormon stories existed. But when I first came out of the church was really when a lot of the painful parts of leaving the church started and realizing what had happened to me really started affecting me. So I spent a lot of time searching for ex Lamanites, people that had been identified as Lamanites that had gone through a faith transition and what their experience was. And there just wasn't a lot out there. So anytime something comes up, I'm immediately, like, listening to it, pulling it up, reading it.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Beautiful. Well, I was really touched by the abstract of your story that you shared. And I told Cody, we need to get Sarah on right now. So thanks for coming on. Let's jump right into it. Talk to us about your, you know, what brought you to the church?

Sarah's Childhood and Native American Heritage

Sarah Newcomb [00:05:35] Well, I was born and raised in the church. My mom's a convert. She's Native American from a northwest coastal tribe.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Tell us the name of the tribe. Tell us the name of the tribe.

Sarah Newcomb [00:05:47] Tsimshian.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:05:49] Part of the first nations group out of British Columbia.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:05:54] And my dad is a sixth generation Mormon. So I, yeah, I was born and raised in the Covenant. My mom had met him at BYU and classic Mormon romance and story.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] And was your mom, was your mom raised on a reservation? Was she raised in a suburb? Like, what was your mom's kind of background before?

Sarah Newcomb [00:06:15] They have a community that Alaska is a little different. Hers is in Alaska, and there's not many reservations left there. But theirs is a Native American community that has survived. And it's a small island just outside of Ketchikan called Metlakahtla, Alaska.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] So was she raised Speaking English. Was she raised speaking a native language?

Sarah Newcomb [00:06:42] Yes, she was raised speaking English because when the natives first started hearing missionary work back in the 1800s and all that, the language was kind of outlawed. Like, they weren't allowed to speak it. A lot of them went into the Native American schools where they were taken out of their families, and that. That kind of affected the entire culture. So right now they're trying to get the language back. But my grandmother knew the language still, but that's kind of where it stopped.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] So was your mom raised sort of with a lot of Western values and. Or was there still as far as religion?

Sarah Newcomb [00:07:25] Yeah, there was a. It was kind of a combination. There's. There's a lot of intermixing the religious values, Christian values with the Native American values.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Okay, but she was raised sort of in a. In a town that was mostly Tsimsheon. Is that right?

Sarah Newcomb [00:07:40] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] Okay. Okay. Do you have a sense for what, what, what drew her to the church? Did she ever told you.

Sarah Newcomb [00:07:47] Oh, yeah, the. The family values, the. I know the Word of Wisdom and what the Book of Mormon's about. Like, all of it was very moving and intriguing to her, and she's still a faithful member and. Yeah, she loves it. She's still very much in it.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Do you have a sense that when she heard about the Book of Mormon and the way the narrative was told, that your mom saw herself in the Book of Mormon and thought of the Book of Mormon as her own heritage?

Sarah Newcomb [00:08:18] That is what they taught. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] And so she, she.

Sarah Newcomb [00:08:21] She does believe that. Yeah, that is part of her.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Okay, so she was. She was. She was a native Canadian, I guess. Is that what you would call it?

Sarah Newcomb [00:08:30] Native American? I mean, the, the main Tsimshian group is all in British Columbia, and it was. That broke off and headed south through Alaska. Okay, so she's. Yeah, Native American. She was born in America.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] And so when she heard about the Lamanites, and she's like, oh, my gosh, this is my people. This is our ancestry. And she really connected to it. Okay, so you were born in the Covenant, and where were you kind of. Where were you raised?

Sarah Newcomb [00:08:55] Well, I was born in Utah, and I've lived in 19 states now.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] Oh, wow, that's 15.

Sarah Newcomb [00:09:02] Fifteen of those were with my parents. Yeah, my dad moved with his job. His job moved us a lot.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] Was it military or something else?

Sarah Newcomb [00:09:09] No, he was. He was in bank. He's in banking. Yeah, he's retired now, but he just specialized. And so with his specialty, we moved quite a bit, which was Actually, really, really interesting and cool because we've lived everywhere from Alaska to Virginia and New York, and town family's been all over the place.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] So I'll just add a quick user comment. Josh says, I love the Tsimshian. I worked with many in Alaska. Sounds like Josh maybe served his mission in Alaska. But we've got at least one listener who kind of knows a bit of your people, so. All right, so, Sarah, you jumped around all those different states. What was it like growing up in the church for you?

Sarah Newcomb [00:09:56] As far as childhood was great. You know, we were moving so much. The church was kind of the same everywhere we went. You know, so everywhere I went, I'd have friends, and that part of it was good. Of course, I was always. I always looked different than everybody at church. You know, we were always just the darker complexion, the darker hair. But people were nice and kids were nice. The real changes happened once I turned 12 and entered young Women's. But childhood was great.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Okay, so you had the typical primary upbringing and had friends and you enjoyed church. So how did things change once you hit 12?

Sarah Newcomb [00:10:41] Well, once you hit 12, of course, you start personal progress, you start reading the scriptures more. And I, you know, typical kid, you know, anytime we had family, home, evening or anything, you know, I'm participating, but I'm also like, off in my own head doing my own thing and playing. And so once I was in Young Women's and had to focus more on what was being taught and really learn the stories, that's when I started really learning more about who the Lamanites were and what the Book of Mormon was about. So that I was. Up until a few years ago, I was a full true blue believer.

Sarah Newcomb [00:11:23] There was no doubt in my mind. I never questioned, actually had never questioned. And so I had a hard time reading the Book of Mormon, but I didn't doubt it. There was zero doubt in me. But I had a hard time just because the Lamanites were who I came from and. And so them being evil and having the dark skin always just. It was just hard for me to read. So I never fully read the Book of Mormon until I was a young women's president. Like, I bounce around in it, but I never read it from beginning to end.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] So you remember reading it as a young teenage girl and being disturbed by some of the messages.

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:03] I struggled with knowing that I came from people that had turned their back on God. I struggled with knowing that they were evil and dancing and all this stuff that was portrayed to be so bad. And yeah, I Struggled with knowing that that's where I had come from. I didn't know a lot of the things that I came to know about the Lamanite stuff, but I was. I was detached from it to a degree.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Yeah. And.

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:35] Yeah, so all three young women's. I was pretty detached and I would just kind of check out and. But I never doubted. I just was. Yeah, full true.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] So did you attend seminary and you attend seminary and all that stuff randomly. Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:51] Growing up outside of, uh, you know, when you have to get up that early, it just. Yeah. I'm the youngest of four, so by the time all my siblings were gone and it was just me, I. I didn't make it all the time, but.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] But you feel like you have a sporadically. You had a pretty strong testimony.

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] What was your testimony?

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:07] Kind of rooted in the whole thing, like priesthood. Priesthood blessings. I would say that's probably where I focused the most because I received blessings from my dad and I'd watch the priesthood and watch the passing the sacrament. I didn't doubt the Book of Mormon, so I'd say that that was a part of my. My testimony hearing my family members and friends at church, of course, you know, there's just. There was just no doubt. So.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] Okay. Did you. What'd you do for college?

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:43] Well, I. It took me a little bit. I took a break for a couple years. I actually. I tend to be pretty determined about stuff, and I graduated high school at the end of my sophomore year.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Oh, wow, that's early.

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:57] Yeah. I started working full time. I bought my own car. I moved out, got an apartment when I was 18, started managing a store and want to say I was around 20 and my patriarchal blessing said that I would go to Rick's college.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] So I was like, well, I better apply. That's pretty specific.

Sarah Newcomb [00:14:22] Well, I actually had talked about wanting to go to Ricks College when I got the blessing, so it.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] Oh, okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:14:29] It's specific, but I, you know, I had expressed desire, so I was like, well, this is never gonna happen. I'm supposed to be there. I need to go. So I applied, quit my job and moved to Rexburg. And yeah, I worked full time the whole time I was there, paid for everything, got my degree. I got my degree in communications and studied some journalism stuff. And that's actually probably what started everything. It's right there because everything was about sourcing. This one journalism class I took, I was extremely interested in. I'd originally majored in business, but switched to journalism and communication stuff and everything I learned about sourcing kind of drove me for years. Like just curiosity, wanting to know truth. I never applied it to the church. Once I graduated from college, I moved to Utah, met my husband and.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] What were you doing in Utah? Yeah, what were you doing?

Sarah Newcomb [00:15:33] Well, I graduated from Rick's and I was kind of taking a bit of a break.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Okay. Nanette's asking if you served a mission. Did you serve a mission?

Sarah Newcomb [00:15:42] No, I didn't serve a mission. I. Yeah, I never had a desire. I was. I was fine just hanging out. But I will say Ricks College was what changed me. Not just the journalism part, that is where I'd say I was first realized that I was unacceptable in some ways because living everywhere else, I'd never grown up around lots of members. You know, I went to school and. And there was two or three members I went to school with, you know, and everybody else was just regular everyday people. So moving to Rexburg and the whole dating scene and everything there, I realized pretty quick that there was something different. And not that anybody was rude to me, but. Well, there were some things that were rude.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] So talk about that, Talk about that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:16:44] Well, for example, some of our fhe brothers family home evening brothers decided it would be a good idea to say who would get married first. And they put us in order and I was, you know, at the end, and then there would be people that would, like, I'd be dating someone and they'd bring me home to meet the parents and it would be over after that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:17:08] I also had someone close to me that got engaged to a great family in Utah and went to meet the parents. And when the to be father in law found out that this person was Native American, also wouldn't let him in the house.

Sarah Newcomb [00:17:26] So, you know, there was things that I, that I'd see happen that I was like, what is this? You know, I was completely detached and naive from that kind of stuff until I went to Rick's and was faced with it on a regular enough basis that, that I couldn't deny that it existed anymore. They still got married and things are great, actually. And, you know, I think it was good for them, but it still affected me, you know, it affects me to see those kind of things.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] So basically you were seeing racism in the church?

Sarah Newcomb [00:18:04] Yeah, to an extent, yeah. Yeah. Like it's hard to just that true blue Mormon part of me that's like, oh, forgiveness, forgiveness. Oh, we just misunderstood. It's kind of automatic in me. And I just see these good people and have a hard time saying that it was racism. But it was.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Yeah, but even now, you don't want to. You don't want to say that. You don't want to call it that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:18:33] Yeah. Even now I'm hesitant, but it was. It's just, you know, I. I don't like labels very much, and I think that no one's 100% anything.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [00:18:45] So by labeling it race, I hate to label a specific person racist, you know, because we. People make dumb mistakes or misinterpretations and, you know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] And I'm guessing you feel like nobody means to be or wants to be, and then maybe they're just doing what they're told or what they've been taught to believe. Right.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:08] There's also the part that is very much part of Mormonism that I call plausible deniability, which is, you know, a legal term. But anytime that you try to say, hey, there's racism, there's all these reasons why there's not, then it just, you know, having grown up in that environment, and I was so willing to always do what was right in how I looked at people, how I forgave. Yeah. I'd say there's. There's a lot of plausible deniability.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] Right. Yeah. You want to get and you want to give people the benefit of the doubt, and you.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] And you probably feel like everybody means. Well, nobody means to be that way.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:53] Nobody realizes the results of their actions.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Sure.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:57] And, you know, they're. They're reacting with their own information. And then I don't believe that the people that did the things they did realized what it was that they were actually doing.

John Dehlin [00:20:08] Right. So as you were raised in Mormonism, it doesn't sound like you ran around saying, oh, my gosh, everyone's racist and everyone's mean. It sounds like you felt like people were nice and people did their best and you enjoyed being a Mormon. Is that true?

Sarah Newcomb [00:20:22] Yeah, I'm kind of like that with everything. I just tended to be a happy, go, lucky, carefree. And I was like that with people outside of Mormonism. Like, I do remember in young women's early on, like, hearing things about, like, the great and abominable Church, you know, and how people would associate that with Catholics, I would get really upset, defensive. And when I'd hear things about any other religion, even if it was during a lesson or I should be respectful, that was the only time that I. Yeah. So I was kind of like that with everything, you know, not just Mormons, but it's just kind of part of who I am.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] Sounds like you're saying you don't like it when people talk bad about other people or organizations and you want to.

Sarah Newcomb [00:21:06] I don't like people making quick assumptions. There's nobody's walked in the other person's shoes.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Right, right. Okay. So how did things progress? You moved to Utah, you're dating. You're seeing some. Some behaviors that don't feel good to you. How did it progress for you?

Marriage, Temple, and Early Adult Life

Sarah Newcomb [00:21:29] Yeah, I didn't. I didn't stay in Utah too long. I quickly. Within. Within a year after leaving Rick's, was married. So I left Rick's, you know, the summer of 2000, and by. Oh, no, the summer of 1999. And then by 2000, I was married.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:21:48] So met my husband, November, engaged February, married in May. I mean, it was. It was Mormon. We would have moved the date up even quicker, but family was all spread out, so we had to be patient.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] So you got super married super quick. Where were you married? Where were you married?

Sarah Newcomb [00:22:06] In the Logan Temple.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] Logan Cache Valley. What brought you to Logan?

Sarah Newcomb [00:22:12] I lived in Logan for a bit and loved the temple. And I had a. You know, I've had family get married in the Salt Lake Temple, and I loved it and it was beautiful, but it was so busy.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [00:22:24] And I wanted pretty pictures and quiet. So Logan, it was okay. I made everybody drive, you know, from Salt Lake out to Logan.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] You were a diva. You were a diva bride.

Sarah Newcomb [00:22:37] I was.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] Okay. Okay. So how did. So when did things start getting rough for you or what happened?

Sarah Newcomb [00:22:45] Well, you know, it didn't really start getting rough right away once I was married. You know, there's that shock of going through the temple and like the Book of Mormon, which I hadn't read at this point yet either, fully from front to back. After my experience going through the temple, I had no desire to go again.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] What was hard?

Sarah Newcomb [00:23:06] It was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] What are you comfortable sharing about? What was hard about the temple for you?

Sarah Newcomb [00:23:12] The division that happens between women and God. Like we're suddenly separated from him. It just wasn't what I thought it would be.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:23:20] So that's. Yeah, that's basically what I struggled with. And after that point, is that hard to talk about? Yeah, it started.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] Was that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:23:31] It's a little hard to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:23:35] I do remember in what. How old was I? I was a freshman in high school. So as young women's. And I'm in this class and me and my friend are sitting there and there's a bunch of guys in the Sunday school class and they're all joking about polygamy and having more than one wife and teacher walks in and he's getting stuff ready and he doesn't say anything. And I just remember that affecting me really bad. And I. I went home that Sunday and talked to my dad about it, and I was just totally against it. You know, it's like, what is this? You know, I knew.

Sarah Newcomb [00:24:05] I was aware of Brigham Young, but, like, most Mormons knew nothing about, you know, and any of the other stuff. And that's when I was told, you know, well, I was getting pretty upset. I remember getting mad. It's hard because it was so long ago, but I don't know what I said, but I know my parents were getting frustrated with me. And that's when I learned that God was a polygamist too, and that this is part of our church. And so from that point, and then going through the temple, once I was married, that just always. It just got harder and harder to deal with that. We got married.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] The temple reinforced your separation from God, your feelings that you were separated from God.

Sarah Newcomb [00:24:52] It was like everywhere I turned, I was being told I wasn't worth as much. I was a Lamanite, which was of worth. But there was, of course, the sign and the curse and all that. And then there was the polygamy and. Yeah, and then being separated from God in the temple, you know, having the husband in between me and God.

Sarah Newcomb [00:25:16] And then we didn't have kids for five years. So I'd say it was pretty laid back. Like, there was no, you know, from 2000 to 2005, we had our typical, you know, marriage ups and downs, which no one wants to hear about those, but it was good. You know, we traveled a lot. We just had fun. Then in December, Christmas day, actually, of 2005, I had my first baby. And it's a girl.

Sarah Newcomb [00:25:40] So having your child, you know, just kind of makes it harder to deal with even more. You know, here I am raising my daughter, and I'm like, how am I going to protect her from the pain I've already experienced?

Sarah Newcomb [00:25:53] And then when I. Yeah, in 2005, I had my girl. Then in 2007, another boy. 2009, I had another baby girl. And that's when I finally, like, something kind of snapped in me where I was like, I can't deal with this part of religion. And I was still at this time, zero doubt, like, full true blue Mormon believer.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Let me ask you a quick question. One of our listeners asked if you how your husband's family were with him, assuming he's Anglo, you know?

Sarah Newcomb [00:26:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] How was his family with him marrying you? Were there any issues? Did you sense any?

Sarah Newcomb [00:26:41] No, but they were converts.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:26:43] So his whole family's converts. And a lot of the issues are kind of things that you're unaware of. So, like, young men grow up in the church learning that they need to marry within their own race, that it's encouraged, you know. But as a convert, you don't. You know, his parents just weren't aware of some of those basic things.

Sarah Newcomb [00:27:07] And my husband, I actually asked him stuff too, because I was curious, and I'm like, well, who taught you these things? Did you learn these things? And he was like, oh, yeah. When we first met, he said he was willing to overlook the. The encouragement of marrying within the race because he was just like, yeah, just in love. And.

Sarah Newcomb [00:27:26] And he said that before he met me that he would look at interracial couples and he wouldn't judge them or think that they were less. But he's like, oh, they're gonna make it harder on themselves and on their kids. Because that's the view of the church, is to discourage those interracial marriages. And. And that's where his mind would go was, oh, it's just gonna be a harder path for them. Not that it was a sin, just a harder path.

Sarah Newcomb [00:27:50] And once he was dating me and once we were married, he was like, it just totally changed everything. He was like, it was nothing, you know, it's. It was no change. And he looked at interracial couples differently after that, just as like another couple.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] So it sounds like he and his family didn't have the deep. The deep seated, sort of young, base Mormon racism. Okay, now, cool. Okay, so I didn't mean to interrupt. So you had. You had three kids, is that right?

Sarah Newcomb [00:28:21] Yeah. So at this point, I'm at three kids. We've had a fourth since, but we were at three kids. Two of them are girls. And even my son, I'm just like, oh, I don't want this part of the religion. But it's, you know, I'm full in, so what am I gonna do with that?

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Well, you don't want which part? You don't want which part?

Sarah Newcomb [00:28:37] Polygamy. So sorry, we're going back to the polygamy, which was my first struggle.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] So the polygamy is just this. And it. And it has to do with the fact that women are lesser than men in God's eyes. Is that correct?

Sarah Newcomb [00:28:47] Yeah. And really, really the experience I had when I was in high school in, you know, the church, Sunday school, that. That really is probably what affected me and sent me down this road. But, you know, every. You know, every year, once, maybe twice, you'd hear a close friend would confide in me, oh, they struggle with this part of our religion, you know, So I would hear. Hear things, but it's like nobody wanted to talk about it. So as a faithful member, I started praying for peace. And I just would beg, you know, like, in my prayers, I'm like, I don't need to understand it.

Sarah Newcomb [00:29:21] I don't need to know why. I just want peace. Can you just bless me with peace? And I literally prayed from 2009 to 2014 on a monthly basis, you know, praying for this just peace in 2014. By then, my research had increased, which. I'll backtrack on that for you in a minute. But.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] So five years you were praying for peace.

Sarah Newcomb [00:29:48] Five years praying for peace. And so in 2000, because it was all true, you know, I just thought, God's gonna bless me with peace. I don't need to understand it. You know, this is a righteous desire. And righteous desires are granted. Right? So I finally, during one prayer, ask if maybe it was a mistake. And I get this just rush of warmth and feel like, oh, it was a mistake, which completely changed, you know, sent me down another path at this point. Now, whether that was just to say, you know, so everybody knows where I stand, I'm not religious right now, all. So looking at that prayer, I can, you know, attribute it to, well, maybe. Maybe it was God or maybe polygamy is not right for me, and I finally just found inner peace in a way.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] But at the time, you felt.

Sarah Newcomb [00:30:42] Yeah, I felt 100% that that was an answer from God. So my fourth child, a year before this happened, was born in 2013. And during that year, when I started actually doing research, I had gone back to school. So I'm actually finally, like, a few months away from graduating with my bachelor's degree. It's been a long haul. But I go back to school, and I'm not at a church school, which was actually good for me. So I'm learning research in different ways, and I start researching the history of polygamy and leading up to this. This prayer that I had in 2014. So from 2013, 2014, just researching, and I'm finding out all kinds of facts that honestly disturbed me.

Faith Crisis and Discovering Church History

Sarah Newcomb [00:31:33] I'd say that the worst one, for me, at least as a true believing member, was that Emma was like, what, like 14th on the list of people sealed to Joseph that she wasn't even the first person sealed. And I just kept thinking, if he received this revelation of eternal marriage, wouldn't he rush to the spouse who had given everything to him and lost children? And I remember being really upset about that, that she wasn't the first one sealed. So, you know, I'm still. Still true blue believer. So when I get that answer in 2014, that, you know, whether it was myself or God or, you know, just that rush of peace that polygamy wasn't was a mistake, I'm like, huh?

Sarah Newcomb [00:32:23] Well, what else is a mistake? You know, what else happened was it. And in my mind, it wasn't Joseph Smith. You know, I'm still like, Joseph Smith was a true prophet and Book of Mormons true. So, like, everything there is safe. And so I pull out Doctrine Covenants and I'm researching doctrine covenants to see what's changed from before Joseph Smith died to after Joseph Smith. Smith died and couldn't believe all the changes. So I had notes everywhere. By the time I was done with like three years of research, I had like this huge binder just full of. Full of stuff. But that was the very first thing outside of prayer that I'd really done was pulling apart the Doctrine Covenants.

Sarah Newcomb [00:33:08] And I refused to go to, like, any anti Mormon literature. So I was. Everything was lds.org the only thing that I would use that was not lds.org was BYU. So I would go to BYU historical papers and immediately look at their sources and I'd source everything because I wanted the real information.

Sarah Newcomb [00:33:31] Part of that answer to prayer in 2014 actually got me really excited about religion. So when I started researching after that prayer, it was not to prove anything wrong. It was just excitement. I'm like, wow. I, for the first time, really felt something that I'd never really felt. And I was ready to experience it time and time again and build a relationship, you know, with my heavenly Father. And so I, yeah, I started researching and getting into church history out of passion. Like, this was not a path that I ever thought I would end up where I'm at now. It was just I don't know anything.

Sarah Newcomb [00:34:14] And I realized I didn't know anything. In what was the other experience? There's one I missed. In 2010, I was young women's president in a small branch. That's when I read the Book of Mormon from very beginning to very end.

Sarah Newcomb [00:34:38] So that was the first time that I'd. I realized how much I didn't know. Kind of embarrassing. I'm like, I'm a true blue believer, but I didn't know my Book of Mormon, and then I didn't know my Doctrine Covenants, you know. So here I am, just diving into history, all excited.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] What'd you think of the Book of Mormon when you read it?

Sarah Newcomb [00:34:59] I read it in a week and a half.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] Wow.

Sarah Newcomb [00:35:02] So, yeah, I was trying to be a good example to my girls because I'd never read it. And so I was doing personal progress with them. And it was. It was an intense read. But when you read that fast, you don't have time to really think for a long time about what you're reading. Just the stories and characters and wars. Stories and characters and wars. So at that time, it was a good experience in a way.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] What? You know, there's this whole talk in the Book of Mormon about dark skin being a curse, and then there's all that stuff about the Lamanites blossoming like a rose and the whole white and delightsome thing. Talk a little bit about how you thought about your skin relative to the curse and righteousness when you were faithful.

Sarah Newcomb [00:35:54] It was unconscious. I don't know how to describe it. So it did affect me. Like, it genuinely affected me. I was taught as a child growing up that Lamanite skins were cursed, that we would lighten as we embrace righteousness.

Sarah Newcomb [00:36:16] And, like, yeah, my mom was taught that from, you know, early in her. You know, within the first two years of her joining the church, she's learning all this. She joined in the 60s, so it was right during that time when all that stuff was starting to be taught.

Sarah Newcomb [00:36:32] She served a mission on the Navajo mission in Arizona. And like, she was teaching those kind of things. She, she. That was part of our religion at the time, openly. And so I grew up being taught that. I was taught that, you know, like, I was discouraged from, like, the dancing and different aspects of our religion, or, sorry, not our religion, different aspects of my culture.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] So, like, what's wrong with dancing? You mentioned dancing twice. What was wrong with dancing?

Sarah Newcomb [00:37:00] Well, if you read the Book of Mormon, when the Lamanites go, let go of God, they are wild. And it talks about all these things they do. And then when you associate that with the pictures and, you know, of Lamanites that have been drawn, the animation, all of that, you know, it's. It's very much connected. And so culture was kind of discouraged.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] Like, that's so, like, the native dancing, the native ritual, native cultures.

Sarah Newcomb [00:37:34] Yeah, the rituals, all that were discouraged.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] And Hiram Joe talked about that, about how participating in the sweat lodges and Other things was discouraged.

Sarah Newcomb [00:37:45] Yeah. Because it's like they view it as turning away from God because that's what the Book of Mormon teaches. So how I reacted to that was very subtle. I. You know, it's. Hang on. Not gonna cry. I'm doing good. All right.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] Crying. Crying is okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:38:18] As I had children and would take them to the parks on a regular basis and anywhere we went. I don't know when it started because it is kind of subtle, but I would. After. After my experience at Ricks College and becoming aware of my skin and seeing what people went through.

Sarah Newcomb [00:38:37] And then I was married so quick after that, in the temple, I started wearing a lot of sunscreen. If I went to a barbecue or any kind of. There it is again. Sorry. I would stand in the shade.

Sarah Newcomb [00:39:10] I got a picture of my grandma here. Just gonna. When I drived. When I drive. When I would drive, I would, like, grip the steering wheel underneath so that my arms were in the shade. I would also, like, sweep my hair forward to, like, cover anything because I was in the car a lot.

Sarah Newcomb [00:39:34] The clothes I'd wear, everything. I was trying to basically not get a tan. And I tan very quick. So even right now, I'm light compared to what I was when my husband married me. Because when my husband married me, I was still going swimming a bunch and standing in the sun and not looking for shade, not looking for constant sunscreen, not being so valued for that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:40:05] I would say the hardest part. Wasn't how I valued myself. It was that I brought a level of shame to my children, to my husband, which is ridiculous. You know,

John Dehlin [00:40:35] You felt like your dark skin brought dishonor to your husband and children.

Sarah Newcomb [00:40:42] He said that once he married me, he was treated differently by people, but it was subtle, like it was something he couldn't describe. And when we'd go to church and I'd want my children to be just a part of everything there. There was just this part of me that was like, man, why couldn't. You know? It wasn't so much that I wanted to be different, but I wanted somebody different for them. Yeah. So definitely messed with me.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] So sorry.

Sarah Newcomb [00:41:23] But thank you.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Thank you for sharing something so vulnerable. Because I. I've been trying to get at this with this series that I don't think we, as white people have any idea what it's like to be given this false identity. And a false identity that's so shaming.

Sarah Newcomb [00:41:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] When there's so much to be proud of, instead, you're giving a false identity that's shaming.

Sarah Newcomb [00:41:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] That has its consequences that I don't think we see.

Sarah Newcomb [00:41:54] Well, I wasn't even really aware of how deep the consequences were until I left. Yeah. So 2014, I started the DNC research. Around 2015, my son turned 8, and that was the first time where I was like, I don't want him to get baptized. And I had no plans to leave the church. I was still considering myself a believer, yet I didn't want him to go on a mission. And at his baptism, I was just like, I don't want this for him.

Sarah Newcomb [00:42:25] My third isn't even eight yet, so don't have to go through that again. But he did get baptized after he got baptized. So from 2015, he was baptized at the end of 2015. So from, you know, all of 2016, I really got into research.

Sarah Newcomb [00:42:44] Yeah. Right after he turned 8 in November of 2015 to probably February of 2016, I have a list of, like, 40 things, and it's all. It's all from church sources. I didn't use anything. In March of 2016, I found the CES letter, and I was like, wow, that would have saved me a lot of time, but I would have never.

Sarah Newcomb [00:43:13] I would have never read it because it was anti Mormon to me. And I actually had. There was a link to you, and that's how I found Mormon stories. And for the first time, I felt like I'm not crazy. You know, I felt like I was crazy up to that point, but finding Mormon stories definitely made me feel not so alone.

Sarah Newcomb [00:43:37] Yeah, my husband, we wanted to do a gentle exit out of the church. We didn't want to tell people why we were leaving. I guess I should backtrack a little. I told my husband, finally, some of the stuff I was finding after my son was baptized. Up to this point, the only thing I'd ever complained to him about was polygamy, because that was something everybody knew, you know, and I didn't want to affect him, but when I'd be struggling through the years, that would be something I'd bring up.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:08] So he'd never heard any of this stuff that I was looking at until after my son was baptized. And for him, he just went through it, and he was like, I'm done. It wasn't what the church.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] Oh, wow.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:24] Yeah. Within a month, he was like, you know, I always questioned things, but he hadn't seen any of the stuff that I showed him before. And for him, it was fast. Yeah. For me, I was. Yeah, we've been told. Because that's not always the case. It's not always both of you.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:45] Yeah. We felt very lucky. So he started staying home with the kids that were sick. Like, wintertime, everybody was sick. And I would take my oldest to church still. And we just decided we'd go until the end of the school year. That way, you know, the activities for the kids were all ending. The Cub Scouts and the activity days stuff for the younger girls.

Sarah Newcomb [00:45:10] And we never told. We had friends ask us why. We've had family ask us. Well, not a lot of family, but some of the family ask us why. And I'm just very general. Like, I'm like, well, church history and keep it mild because it's such a personal journey that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:45:29] Yeah, like, one of the answers. I'm. I just say, you know, it's church history. If you want to read it, it's there. If you don't, don't worry about it, you know, but for me, it's. It's not what we want, so. Oh, gosh, I just saw Christina's comment. That's gonna.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] Christina, my old friend Tina Prince McClendon. She wrote, Your tears connect us all. We likely have different reasons, but the pain is similar and we grieve with you. So many hurts. So many. So much time and money lost. So much pain. I'm so sorry that the church made you feel that way. It is so wrong. I am happy that you were able to leave and start the healing. Win writes really powerful podcasts. Sarah, thank you for your courage. He also writes, the false doctrines, the fake beliefs really hurt you. Leston writes, thank you for sharing something that was obviously so painful for you. Sonny writes, kia kaha, sis with love from here in New Zealand. So he's speaking Maori to you.

Sarah Newcomb [00:46:34] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] Joyce writes, I heard for you. Carol writes, what a sweetheart. I feel so bad. You're touching people's hearts, Sarah. So thank you.

Sarah Newcomb [00:46:44] Well, thanks for the comments, everyone. Anyway, so, yeah, in May of 2016, you know, every people at church had been asking, well, where's Chris? And Chris had exited his calling. I was teaching Sunbeams at this point, and he. My husband's name is Chris. He exited his calling and said he had to support me because I had to be there for two hours and they needed me every week. And we had sick kids all the time at that point, and so he just started staying home and the younger two. And of course the baby didn't care, but so the younger three all stayed home with Daddy and they were.

Sarah Newcomb [00:47:23] That's what they wanted. So it was kind of easy. With them. My oldest had just turned 11, and so it was a little harder for her. And so in May, before we left, I kind of let her know and she asked why, and I gave her just a few basic reasons. I didn't get into anything, just, well, the church believes in polygamy. And, you know, I told her some of that.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] What about the argument that the church stopped polygamy? Did that not sit well with you?

Sarah Newcomb [00:47:54] The church hasn't stopped polygamy. They've stopped practicing, but they haven't stopped believing in it. It's still part of it. And I also told her about the essays. I shared one essay with her and I showed it to her, the one with how the Book of Mormon was Translated. And my 11 year old started laughing her head off.

Sarah Newcomb [00:48:15] She was like, yeah, I'm done. And I thought it was gonna be really hard. I was trying to go gentle, just basic. I mean, it was like five minute conversation at the most. And I said, mommy believes in honesty and I'm not going to be dishonest and keep things from you. And this is why we're leaving. And of course, she doesn't know anything about what I went through as a laymanite. That's a little too much, you know, at this point. But, yeah. So at the end of May, I sent a text message or an email to the bishop saying they'd have to find somebody else for sunbeams, and we were out finishing up.

Sarah Newcomb [00:48:54] Going to church those last couple months was hard because it would, like, trigger trauma, like listening to people talk about things in sacrament meeting, trying to teach these small children, being expected to teach these lessons. I felt like. Like I was brainwashing babies.

Sarah Newcomb [00:49:11] It was really hard at the end, but once I left, telling my family was really hard. But I tend to be a very upfront, honest person and I wanted to protect my parents, especially because they're older. And so I went, I'd say, a good four or five months, and I was like, this isn't an honest relationship. I would rather they rejected me than not know who I am, than not know their daughter. You know, every time I talked to my mom, I felt like I was pretending to be somebody else when really I'm the same person, you know, same values. But that. That was hard.

Racial Teachings and the Lamanite Identity

John Dehlin [00:49:52] All right, have all your older siblings remained in the church?

Sarah Newcomb [00:49:54] Mm, yeah, I'm the older sister.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Oh, wow. So you're the first.

Sarah Newcomb [00:49:58] Well, I have one nephew who.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] Yeah, yeah, but your siblings are all still in, so you were the first. Everybody's still in Being the first to depart is always the hardest.

Sarah Newcomb [00:50:11] Yeah. And so this last year, I think that's when it is. Like, every time. Every time I thought I was healing, there'd be something new that I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm still struggling with this or that. There's. There's this aspect of feeling crazy. Like, I felt like I was crazy for using my common sense, using my brain seeing everything as just black and white and valuing honesty. Like, that was one of the questions. Are you honest in all your dealings? And I would do that with everything. Is this honest? Is this honest? So, like, being raised that way and having lived that way, it was really hard for me to not live honestly.

Sarah Newcomb [00:50:56] And so living honestly, but being told by friends and family, not aggressively, you know, but just, what are you doing this? You know, what about the kids? What's gonna happen to your children? You know, like, there is this aspect that where I was, I really felt crazy.

Sarah Newcomb [00:51:18] And so I would have to, like, go through and research more. And I. I know. I've heard other people have had to do this, like, where I would just listen to podcast after podcast after podcast, and I would read at night for hours just to validate myself, you know, My husband, he didn't have any of these problems. He would just be snoring away. You know, he was fine.

Sarah Newcomb [00:51:44] Not that it wasn't hard for him, but his mom had gone inactive a couple times during his childhood, so he had kind of gone in and out, and it wasn't as much of a shock to his system. Whereas I was totally true blue. You know,

John Dehlin [00:52:05] he wasn't pioneer heritage, and he wasn't born in the covenant, and.

Sarah Newcomb [00:52:10] Well, he was born in the covenant. His parents were members and sealed by then.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] Okay.

Sarah Newcomb [00:52:15] He was the youngest, so.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Yeah, but it maybe made. I'm just theorizing, maybe he didn't have the pioneer ancestry, and maybe that, through your dad, brought an extra level of intensity. I don't know. I'm just speculating.

Sarah Newcomb [00:52:30] My mom is actually more outspoken and passionate about the gospel. Like, it's beautiful in many ways. You know, they both served missions, then they met and got married. They had four children. They retired, they go on a mission.

Sarah Newcomb [00:52:46] It's. It's brought a lot of joy to them. But they come. You know, I don't judge the older generations. I have a hard time, you know, judging our elders just because they didn't have the information. I. You know, I'm. Okay, truth moment. I'm 40.

Sarah Newcomb [00:53:05] I didn't have this information. I Went through college at Rick's without any of this access to information. It was just really starting to become easy. Like in. I had all my years written down in 2015 when my son got baptized. And then I started researching. That was the first time I'd heard of the essays. I didn't even know that they existed, you know, so how would I expect my parents to know any, you know, any stuff? I will say the essay, you know, race in the priesthood. The first time I read it, I was like, oh, so Lamanite skin is not a curse? And then I read it again and again and again and I'm like, it has nothing to do with Lamanites, you know, that it had to do with relieving.

Sarah Newcomb [00:53:53] Yeah, the African Americans from the curse. But so I was like, well, are we still cursed? And like, there was. There's so much information I found. I have notes everywhere of sources. But it is current in the, in the seminary manual. It's currently in the student manual for eternal marriage. Like, it is a current belief that Lamanite skin is cursed. It's not.

Sarah Newcomb [00:54:20] It's not. Oh, it just means spiritually. Like people like to put that. Oh, the being cursed sign. The sign of the curse was just a spiritual sign. No, it literally says, hang on, let me grab one because I am not good at remembering. Here's the seminary manual. Current seminary manual.

Sarah Newcomb [00:54:42] Why was the mark of dark skin set upon the Lamanites? That the Lamanites might not be enticing the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. So they didn't want them to marry with the, you know, with the Nephites. In the 2013 manual, they use a quote by Joseph Fielding Smith that says the dark skin of those who have come into the church is no longer considered to be a sign of the curse.

Sarah Newcomb [00:55:11] But that's only for the dark skinned people who have come into the church. Like the sign still exists. So me sourcing, I'm like, well, what context has this been taken out of? Because that's just how my brain works. I got obsessed. So I went and I started reading the answers to gospel questions. Like I've read journal discourses. I've gone through so many books, but in Answers to Gospel Questions, Volume 3 by Joseph Fielding Smith, it says in full context with what I just read you.

Sarah Newcomb [00:55:45] It continues from. Many of these converts are delightsome and have the spirit of the Lord. Perhaps there are some Lamanites today who are losing the dark pigment. Many of the members of the church among the Catawba Indians of the south could readily pass as of the white race.

Sarah Newcomb [00:56:05] The Lord commanded the Nephites not to intermarry with them, for if they did, they would partake of the curse. And that's actually something that I heard from, from people like that their children would be cursed. You know, it's passed on.

Sarah Newcomb [00:56:21] And at the very end of his, of Joseph Fielding Smith's quote, it said evil brought a return of the curse. So he talked about how when the Savior came, the Lamanite skins were all lightened, and the Lamanites and Nephites, everybody was the same. But then the Lamanites decided people that decided to turn evil again. Evil brought return of dark skin. So, like, when I hear this apologetic stuff about, oh, they're not talking about the skin, they're talking about your spirit. You know, a darkness came over their spirit. No, they're talking about the skin. It's in the current seminary manuals. It's in the current student manual for marriage. It's in. It's all over the place.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] Most importantly, the Book of Mormon is very clear that the skin is dark. You can't. You might be able to find one verse over here where it sounds like there's a difference between the cursing and the mark or whatever, but there are other verses where it's unambiguous skin has turned dark because of wickedness.

Sarah Newcomb [00:57:27] Yeah, yeah, well, and I was also taught that, like, the Lamanites are constantly moving now I'm like, you know, with, with DNA and everything changing. And one of the other apologetics is that, like, I have only one quote from Fairmormon and it's location of the Nephites and Lamanites, and it says the church has made it abundantly clear that it does not endorse any particular view of the. Of Mormon geography.

Sarah Newcomb [00:57:57] Technically it does, because in an article by Bruce Armaconki quoting Joseph Fielding Smith, it's called Doctrines of Salvation. Article is called where is the Hill Cumorah? And it talks about like, I don't want to read it. It's pretty long.

Sarah Newcomb [00:58:15] But he says Joseph Smith himself is on record definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be on the exact hill and of in the Book of Mormon. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer and others could speak frequently of the spot where the prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah and not be corrected by the prophet if that were Not a fact. So that, to me is saying geography.

John Dehlin [00:58:48] Do you know what apologists would say that Joseph didn't even know?

Sarah Newcomb [00:58:52] Yeah. And that. That, to me is ironic. Like. Like the book of LDS.org, the DNA study stuff, how it says the Book of Mormon itself doesn't claim to know if the people were the predominant people, but it used to say that on the Book of Mormon page, my mom was taught that people are still being taught. Like this year, Elder Anderson went and told young Native Americans there's an article, the article's title tells young Native American members they are part of the Book of Mormon. If anybody wants to look up the article. Yeah, so he says the Book of Mormon is true and you are part of it. The Book of Mormon is written for the descendants of the children of Lehi. And he's talking to singles from Kirtland, Gallup and Crown Point, New Mexico. So people are still being taught that. Like, yeah, if we don't know

John Dehlin [00:59:51] where

Sarah Newcomb [00:59:52] the Lamanites are, which, okay, great, take that route. We don't know. Claim the ignorance. Why are we teaching people that they're the Lamanites then? You know, it's. It's plausible deniability. They're taking every route possible and saying, oh, no, look, this is what it is. Oh, no, look over here. It's. And that's not the way it was in the beginning. You know, the way the church started out. It was black and white, literally.

John Dehlin [01:00:22] Not only that, but the Book of Mormon claims that its purpose is to convert. It's for the Lamanites to convert the true blood of Israel back to Christ. And so how ironic that the most important book ever brought to mankind whose explicit purpose is to bring the original blood of Israel back to Christ. Now we don't know who that blood of Israel is anymore, especially given that DNA shows overwhelmingly that Native Americans come from Mongolia, not from Israel. Who are these pure blood of Israel that the Book of Mormon is written for? It's this incredibly shrinking Lamanite.

Sarah Newcomb [01:01:01] And now I think some of why they avoid any of this, dealing with any of this is because if they say that, oh, well, you know what? The Native American skin, it's not cursed either, then that destroys the Book of Mormon. Like, they can't say that. You know, they've done it for blacks in the priesthood, for the race. They've said, okay, that that was wrong. That wasn't a curse. They can't do that for the Lamanites, because if they do, it takes away the power of the Book Of Mormon. Yeah, it takes away the truthfulness of it. The most correct book on earth.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] And there's no. There's no essay addressing this, as you mentioned. And that's. And you're saying that's your theory as to why? Because it strikes too close to the heart of authority and scripture within Mormonism.

Sarah Newcomb [01:01:50] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] Because if you read. I'm just gonna read this. This is second Nephi 5. 21. And he caused the cursing to come upon them. Yea, even a sore cursing because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint. Wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people. The Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. So not only is it saying that they were made dark because of their wickedness, but it's saying that God sees blackness as bad and that he didn't want them to be attractive to the white people, so he made them black so they wouldn't be attractive. I mean, that's offensive in, like, 12 different ways, right?

Sarah Newcomb [01:02:45] Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I don't like saying too much about my parents because they are true believers and they're. They're good people, and I wouldn't want to hurt them in any way. And so even as a true believer, when I was full in, it was hard for me to see what they went through as an interracial couple because they got married in the 60s.

Sarah Newcomb [01:03:06] One of the manual from teachings of Spencer W. Kimball says, when I said you must teach people to overcome their prejudice and accept the Indians, I did not mean that to encourage you to intermarry. Like. And there was. There was a lot of problem. You know, he came from a very. My dad came from a very, you know, true blue, good Mormon family with a long history. And so that. I know it was hard for them to see him marry, but he. I'll give it to my dad. He is not.

Sarah Newcomb [01:03:46] He's one of the most gentle, you know, accepting, kind people. And I think that's why my mom was drawn to him and why they were drawn to each other. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Sean's asking what your patriarchal blessing said about your lineage.

Sarah Newcomb [01:04:00] Oh, gosh, this is a story, Sean. So being the youngest was hard when it came to lineage, Because every single one of my mom's children ended up Ephraim. And so I was her last hope to feel, like, a connection. There was.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Because your mom was what, Manasseh? And that's the typical thing.

Sarah Newcomb [01:04:30] That's a typical Native American.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Native Americans are given tribe of Manasseh.

Sarah Newcomb [01:04:34] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] And she'd given up as if there's this blood lineage that literally flows through Lehi and Nephi and Laman and Lemuel all the way through to Native Americans, right?

Sarah Newcomb [01:04:49] Yeah, yeah. And she'd given up a lot to join the church. She had an amazing conversion story and gave up everything. I mean, she gave up her entire previous life basically to join the church. And so as each one of her children are being, you know, told their Ephraim, there was. There was a degree of pain, but she. She was like, oh, maybe Sarah's gonna be Manasseh. I remember her saying this over and over, and. And so she was really excited for me to get my patriarchal blessing. So I got it at age 12.

Sarah Newcomb [01:05:27] Like, I think that's a little young. I remember being very, very playful. I was. Yeah. As much as I am into research and sourcing and kind of obsessive about research, at 12, I was obsessive about play and imagination. I remember the most exciting part of me going to get my patriarchal blessing was this red fox running along the tree line out in the country, if that tells you where my head was. But, you know, I get my patriarchal blessing, and I'm Ephraim.

Sarah Newcomb [01:06:04] And I remember just this distance beginning, you know, just like I almost felt like it was a letdown or my fault. But I think in some ways, you know, I. My mom's family was taken from her in a way, and then her children were, you know, and it's not literal. You know, I know it's not literal, but mentally, I think it was hard for her. It was hard for me to feel like a disappointment.

John Dehlin [01:06:35] But, yeah, it's weird because if she had internalized that sort of, you know, hatred for the dark skin or the cursings, I guess in one logical strain, she would want her children to now be, you know, Gentiles and be white, you know, and delight some. But I guess there's also that pull of just wanting people to be like you and wanting your kids to be like you.

Sarah Newcomb [01:07:03] Yeah, she had. She wanted. Yeah, I think she wanted to share that. And I think that's natural of any mom to want to share with at least one of their children, their lineage. But I was often told growing up that I was white, that. That I wasn't Native American.

Sarah Newcomb [01:07:20] I'd still be brought home to Alaska to visit family and see my grandma and stuff. But I felt so disconnected because I was being told I was white, but I wasn't treated like I was white at church or school. Then I'd go home to Alaska, and I felt like I was an outsider because I didn't understand the culture completely. But my grandma.

Sarah Newcomb [01:07:45] My grandma was amazing. Like, she was the center of the family. They still celebrate her life on her birthday every year, even though she's gone. She was so loving, and she was always accepting. There was this one time, I was maybe 10 years old, my mom and I were there for, I want to say, an extended period, like six months, five months. We went to stay so she could see her family was going to school there for a little bit.

Sarah Newcomb [01:08:15] And my grandma. We were in her bedroom. And my grandma. I'll try not to get emotional. So my grandma tried to talk to me about Mormonism because it was hard for her when my mom joined because of the polygamy and the racism specifically.

Sarah Newcomb [01:08:33] And so I remember my mom was in the room and my grandma was in the bedroom, and she tried to talk to me. And me being just a proud Mormon, you know, like I was raised to be, I snapped at her.

Sarah Newcomb [01:08:55] So you'd think that that would have changed our relationship. But she was. I never told her sorry. And now, like, she's gone and I can't. But. So she was always the same. She was always telling family to love each other, to be forgiving, to accept each other. And, you know, she's not. She's not Mormon. And I'm seeing more acceptance and kindness and love from her than I had most people in my life, pretty much anybody. She was the most loving and accepting, always talking to the family in front of us, pulling us together and kind of lecturing us, but in such a loving way. And everyone respected her.

Sarah Newcomb [01:09:46] So for her to have tried to reach out to me and me react in anger, I'm. I'm not mad at myself because I was a little, you know, as a kid doing what I was supposed to. But I'm upset that.

Sarah Newcomb [01:10:13] Relationships with my Native American family were discouraged. Like, I have this uncle, my Uncle Bert, who has called me every month for the last. Well, since 2005, when I had my first baby. He came to visit me, and we made pies and we talked, and he was.

Sarah Newcomb [01:10:43] Yeah, he's just been amazing. And so he wouldn't even know what I was going through with my whole spiritual journey. And he'd be calling me every month, and I'm like. It would be on my worst day, and suddenly he'd be calling, and I'M like, well, you know, you think that with how little I gave to my family in Alaska, that they have let me go, you know, but that's not how they are.

Sarah Newcomb [01:11:09] And he and I still talk all the time. And it's just this connection where I'm finally starting to reclaim my heritage. Like, I have a hard time saying that I'm Native American because I feel like I haven't been allowed to be and I'm unsure, But that's not the reality. You know, my emotions are one thing, but the reality when I go just common sense, like, of my emotions, flip the switch, see? Oh, that's nice. I can flip the switch and my emotions are gone and go straight for common sense.

Sarah Newcomb [01:11:53] Research study, you know, laid out business, like, which is why I was going to major in business. And I can see it's ridiculous that my grandmother was of the Eagle Clan. I'm an Eagle Clan. It passes through the matriarchal system.

Sarah Newcomb [01:12:12] My daughters have that. My uncles never let go of me. I reached out to one of my cousins and reconnected just this year. I sent a few text messages and stuff, but I'm super shy, like, you know, like, how do you express love for people that don't know who you are and can't trust you because they've been rejected by you? You know, in a way. I have this one cousin that I love. Like, we played tons growing up, and he. He got in an accident.

Impact of Skin Color Doctrine on Self-Image

Sarah Newcomb [01:12:44] Lot of my love. My family are professional fishermen, and they take the boats out on the water, and he had gotten knocked off the boat. And most people die, like, in the situations that he's in where they. They get. They're just gone.

Sarah Newcomb [01:13:00] They didn't know for miles. And they turned around and came back, and he'd been in the water hours and had hypothermia. And they brought him to the hospital, and I was in tears, like, over the thought of anything happening to him and him not knowing how I felt. And there's just this division because I haven't. I put Mormonism first. I mean, when I say I was full True Blue member, I mean in every sense. I didn't have time to go visit. I had callings. I didn't have time to write. I didn't have time to text. I didn't have time to serve anybody outside of, like, my Mormon realm.

Sarah Newcomb [01:13:52] And he. He has no idea how I feel. And there's. There's these bridges I'm trying to build now, but really, I just need a chance to go back and visit. And it's kind of. It's not just about them either. It's like reclaiming this identity that's been stolen.

Sarah Newcomb [01:14:15] Reclaiming a pride about it. Letting. Letting not just other people know what I stand for, but I guess it's more letting myself stand for those things and say, no, that wasn't right. You know. Yeah, it's been. It's been an emotional journey because I was told I was white. And when I got that, Ephraim, I was told that that's the white lineage. And.

Sarah Newcomb [01:14:49] And so I always felt like I was being torn in pieces, you know, and then we'd have, like, missionaries over for dinner, and they'd be. They'd look at me and my husband. I'd be sitting there and they'd look at me and say, well, what are you.

Sarah Newcomb [01:15:03] And depend on where we lived, you know, in Texas, there's a big Hispanic population, so people, you know, automatically think I'm Hispanic, but it's really dependent where we live. You know, people are just like, hey, what's your. And they don't mean it offensively, but they don't. Ask my husband, you know, he could be Irish, English, Swedish, Norwegian. Technically, he's Scandinavian.

Sarah Newcomb [01:15:26] I want to get to details, but, yeah, you know, there's. There's this labeling that happens when. When you have brown skin where people want to be able to put you in a category. And for me, it was never the category I felt naturally drawn to or felt like I belonged to. It was always, no, you're supposed to be over here.

Sarah Newcomb [01:15:50] I remember when I. The first Sunday that we weren't going to church, I walked out into the front yard and just stood in the sun. You know, I'm wearing a tank top, short shorts, and I was like, I'm not moving out of the sun. And sadly enough, it, like, was hard for me. I kept wanting to, like, nah, it was so. So ingrained in me, which is embarrassing, you know, now. But to say that these teachings don't affect people is ignorant.

Sarah Newcomb [01:16:26] And it kind of goes back to the ignorance, you know, when we talked about racism in the beginning of our conversation, that it's just ignorance, denial. And, you know, the church is run by businessmen and lawyers, and I think that's a lot. Why there's a lot of plausible deniability. If there can be any doubt anywhere, you know, doubt your doubts. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] So if you were to make a. This has been so wonderful. This is beautiful and powerful and touching. If you were to try and summarize Let me just take a couple things specifically. So, first of all, the teachings in the Book of Mormon around skin and everything, if you were just to very plainly say why you think those teachings are harmful as teachings, and then we'll get to the separate thing about giving people an identity that may be false and that may be harmful, if you just had to speak plainly to why the teachings in the Book of Mormon are damaging, what would you say?

Sarah Newcomb [01:17:37] How is anybody able to be proud of their brown skin when they are told that it is the sign of being cursed? It's not the curse itself. I know how they word it. You know, that's not the curse.

Sarah Newcomb [01:17:53] But how is anybody to be proud of their skin or feel okay with it when the curse is the sign of the curse is only taken away depending on righteousness. And of course, they're getting rid of that now because obviously people don't lighten, they don't change colors. They're born a certain color and that's it.

Sarah Newcomb [01:18:20] Yeah, common sense, honesty. I'd like to push a lot of honesty in the church. If there's anything I stand for, it's that, like, I had a hard time even telling my kids that Santa Claus was coming. You know, I tried to argue with my. My first child that he wasn't real. And she's like, no, he is. I'm like, okay, we'll play Santa Claus. So we do Santa Claus now. But it was hard for me. And that's.

Sarah Newcomb [01:18:46] How can we say that this isn't a lie? You know, that this, this curse being dark skin is not a lie. How can we deny its effect?

John Dehlin [01:18:59] I mean, we know that in Joseph's time, people were trying to figure out where Native Americans came from, if the Bible were true. And they were trying to figure out why they had dark skin because they didn't have science. And so obviously, just like people tried to say that black people came from Cain being cursed, it makes sense to take that folk teaching and then apply it to Native Americans. So, I mean, I think that's obviously where Joseph got that idea.

Sarah Newcomb [01:19:30] Well, you know, I dealt with a lot of anger, and I had to figure out where my anger was coming from. I wasn't angry at my parents for teaching me these things. I wasn't angry at Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, because everybody lives in their own reality in their time.

Sarah Newcomb [01:19:53] Thankfully, we have, you know, we're in the age of information. It's different now. What I have a problem with and where my anger stems from slightly is I wrote, you know, I have this list of like 40 things that I found wrong. But then I wrote a new list of why I have major issues with the church. And it's, it's not pointing out all the things that are off and wrong. It's modern day cover up. You know, I don't expect Joseph to say sorry or make up for things that maybe he got wrong.

Sarah Newcomb [01:20:26] But I do expect modern day the church now to not keep making those mistakes. I expect them to respect and love and stand for am I being honest in all my dealings? Which is a temple question. If they're not being honest in all their dealings, they're not living their own religion. And so that's.

John Dehlin [01:20:48] If somebody says, well, that's what the essays are, the essays of the church coming clean and being honest, then I go to.

Sarah Newcomb [01:20:56] Well, we've also got Elder Anderson who just told a group of Native Americans that, you know, we can say, okay, well let's, let's go that route. Well, DNA, we don't know who the Lamanites are. Then why are we telling a group of people, a group of single adults that they are Lamanites if we don't know where they are?

Sarah Newcomb [01:21:19] That, to me is not being honest in all your dealings. It's just not. And then you're affecting them by saying, well, you are a Lamanite and this is why you're dark skinned. So you're not only taking their identity away. And this is where taking my identity away wasn't just affecting my skin. Like, that's, that's how I reacted. Not everybody reacts that way. That was my experience. And I was, you know, I was Ephraim and I was, I'm half white. You know, I'm.

Sarah Newcomb [01:21:46] So there, there was a different experience I had there. But what really affected me was my culture that I didn't get to experience. I didn't get to. If I would have felt free enough to connect with my grandma and all my family there, my cousins, my husband, I've only taken him home one time and we've been married 17 years and I've been home to Alaska once.

Sarah Newcomb [01:22:13] My Uncle Burt reaches out to me constantly and I haven't made a trip, you know, well, now we added the fourth kid. And of course having a family of six fly to Alaska, it's pricey, but I finally feel like the, you know, not just the desire, but I'm.

Sarah Newcomb [01:22:34] If you would have talked to me literally a year ago. I was a mess. Like I couldn't make sense of the damage that was done to me.

John Dehlin [01:22:45] What I hear you saying is that the church separated you from your native ancestors.

Sarah Newcomb [01:22:50] Yeah, completely, 100%.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] And that that's a loss. Why is that a loss? How is that a loss?

Sarah Newcomb [01:22:59] Because it's not honesty. It's. It's not my honest ancestry. It's not where I come from. It's not who I am. It's not any part of me.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] The Lamanite, the Lamanite narrative, how.

Sarah Newcomb [01:23:14] How can you tell every brown person in the continent that they're Lamanites and take away their real heritage and tell them their skin is cursed?

John Dehlin [01:23:24] And what do you lose when you're disconnected from your actual real heritage and told that it's a heritage with evil foundations? What do you. So there's two things. Being told that your ancestors have been wicked and being separated and cut off from them. What's the impact on you

Sarah Newcomb [01:23:48] being told they're wicked? When you think about, my mom was the only one that joined, so her dark skin is not viewed as a curse. When she was on her mission, she had the other sister. Missionaries would put their arms against hers, and they'd be like, oh, you're lighter than me. You know, her Caucasian, Anglo companions.

Sarah Newcomb [01:24:05] So she. She had that experience. But then when you look at everybody back on the island, regardless of how good they are, you know, their. Their skin still cursed. So how I viewed skin is just. It's just ridiculous to put so many aspects onto it. But as far as, like, the heritage itself, leaving skin out of it, which is a whole different issue for me, the heritage itself, history is powerful. Like, how your people came from. We'll just take Europe. How the Irish.

Sarah Newcomb [01:24:43] I'm like 40%, 48% Irish, mostly Irish on that side. How the Irish came across and what they did for themselves and how they started new lives. What if they were told, oh, no, that's not where you're from, and they had that taken away. It's not okay. Their ancestors fought for that.

Sarah Newcomb [01:25:02] Any group of people that fight for something and fight to survive and have their own values that have nothing to do with one specific religion. I mean, there's over 4,000 religions. So if you tell all of them that, no, that's not where you're from.

Sarah Newcomb [01:25:20] Truth is powerful. You identify with your heritage. You identify with where you've come from. That's why it's so important. That's why so many people research it. That's why there's so much connection to, oh, I'm from this family. And even in the Mormon community, you know, if somebody's from the Joseph Smith line. What if we're like, oh no, that's not who you're from.

Sarah Newcomb [01:25:43] You know, you're from this guy over here and he was inactive. It's gonna have an effect. That small detail of identity has an effect.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Or from some guy who never existed. Right.

Sarah Newcomb [01:25:53] Or from some guy that didn't exist in this case. Yeah. But taking that heritage of, of where you're really from and twisting it, it's not okay. That's not being honest.

John Dehlin [01:26:03] In your dealings, do you find strength now, getting back in touch with your ancestors and your real heritage, does that provide you with identity or comfort or strength?

Sarah Newcomb [01:26:17] In a way, yes. I love history. And so through the years I've read a lot about the Tsimshian history and of the northwest coastal tribes. I like taking my kids to powwows and that type of stuff. Even if it's not my tribe here in Texas. I'm not going to have the same environment, but I love going. But I always feel like an outsider slightly. So it's going to take a while for me to gain back what was taken from me, you know? And again, I don't think it was taken on purpose. I don't blame the way I was raised. But going forward, there's no need for people to be taught this stuff. If we don't know where the Lamanites are, we need to stop saying, hey, you're a Lamanite. We need to stop telling people who they are.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] So let's just say we wave a magic wand and all the church leaders stop telling brown skinned people they're Lamanites. Does that solve the problem or is there more they would need to do? Because people are still gonna read the Book of Mormon.

Sarah Newcomb [01:27:23] People are still gonna read the Book of Mormon. People are gonna be people, they're gonna have their own experiences, their own interpretation.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] I mean, brown skinned people will still read the Book of Mormon.

Sarah Newcomb [01:27:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Even if they're not told they're laymanites, they'll still read it. Right?

Sarah Newcomb [01:27:38] I. It's really hard for me to answer that question because I do believe in being honest. I think honesty has nothing to do with religion. It's very much a human, you know, it's about humanity.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [01:27:52] It is a natural desire in humankind to respect honesty. And if they were going to be honest in everything, that take years. But as for this, I'd like to stop being dishonest. You know, like, if you're going to say you don't know where they are, don't tell people that, you know, where they're from. Yeah. Heritage is still a journey for me, and I'm still in this process of understanding how I've been hurt. You know, the skin thing has been the easiest for me to explain because it's simple. Explaining how I am upset having lost out on my heritage is a lot harder to explain.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't know. You don't know what you've lost because you never had it.

Sarah Newcomb [01:28:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty much it.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [01:28:59] And it's kind of a hard balance because I. I want to respect my parents. I want to respect my siblings who are in. I. So I don't tell them anything. I don't. I've asked them questions before. When. Before I'd left the church, I was asking, you know, parents and siblings lots of questions, like, was I the only one taught this? Like, I was constantly doubting myself and thinking I was crazy. So I was like, I was taught not to join in. And the dancing, was that in my head? You know, am I remembering wrong? And.

Sarah Newcomb [01:29:39] And one of my brothers was like, yeah, I was taught that, too. So I was like, okay, confirming. Confirming that I was taught these things. But, yeah, the further I get out of. Of the pain of everything, and the further I progress in my healing, it's hard because I want to respect them, but they don't really know who I am now. You know, Like, I've changed so much, and I.

Sarah Newcomb [01:30:04] Well, I say I've changed a lot, but really, I'm being the person I've always been, and I'm free to be that person now. Yeah. So families. Family is difficult because you want to just love and respect and honor them. But it is what it is. Some of why I wanted to reach out is I.

Searching for Others with Similar Experiences

Sarah Newcomb [01:30:23] I was so broken as I realized my identity issues. And I would search the Internet. I searched Reddit, I searched everywhere. I'm like, where are the Lamanite people that are struggling? And I ran across Angelo Baca. He's a film. Film student. He did this film, in layman's terms, looking at laymanite identity.

John Dehlin [01:30:47] Yes.

Sarah Newcomb [01:30:48] That. That really hit home for me. Like, you talk about heritage being stolen, and I'm like, when I watch his videos, he did another one. But it. There's something about pictures that put into words that I can't.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] You know, I think Thomas Murphy told me about that movie. We need to screen it here in Utah. Is that a powerful movie? You recommend it?

Sarah Newcomb [01:31:15] I highly recommend it.

Life After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:31:16] Okay, so how are you moving on now? How's life now for you and ah, the good stuff.

Sarah Newcomb [01:31:22] Yeah, I like coffee okay. A lot. I can't drink much of it though. My husband, I, I was so true blue Mormon that I was always pushing him to be perfect, perfect, perfect. But it was the church's perfection idea. And all the time, you know, Poor guy. The entire time he was perfect as he was.

Sarah Newcomb [01:31:48] Our relationship like when we first left, the first few months were like, I swear the sky is like bluer. And the like everything was heightened, just joyful. The kids are relaxed, our life is very peaceful. Like you know, I've actually said that to my family and my siblings. I'm like the last calm do. I'm like, life is peaceful. It's like nobody wants to hear that word. But that's the only way I can describe it. Sundays roll along and we're like, hey, let's go for a hike and a picnic.

Sarah Newcomb [01:32:23] It's just laid back. And now when I do service, it's not this exhausting checklist to make sure I'm perfect enough to, you know, it's not somebody else's service that they're demanding. It's. Everything's going towards my kids. My husband's time is all going towards his family. Yeah, life's good.

John Dehlin [01:32:46] If somebody were to say, how are you going to teach morals to your kids without a church? What would you say?

Sarah Newcomb [01:32:51] If you need a church to teach morals, then you've got problems already. Morality is natural to humanity. If, yeah, end of story.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] How about loss of community? Has that been hard? Do you miss it?

Sarah Newcomb [01:33:09] That was hard for me, I would say mostly because I'm a mom and I'm a stay at home mom because I, yeah, I tended to be like, I was very driven, you know, like I said, I graduated as a sophomore, I got my own apartment, bought my car, put myself through school, never took out a loan. I was very driven.

Sarah Newcomb [01:33:34] It was hard for me becoming a stay at home mom. And now I'm a stay at home mom. And we moved to Texas, we're not from here, so I'm a stay at home mom with no friends, which I'm okay with. But it's hard for me to watch the kids because I'm like, alright, so I'm taking them swimming a lot this year and we've signed them up for a bunch of like, you know, city classes like archery and you know, anything I can get them out doing just to help them have fun when school's out.

John Dehlin [01:34:02] Are you near Dallas?

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:04] I am.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] Oh, we got to get you some I've got some good friends that I think you would love.

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] Oh, this area, like Jamie, Hannah, Sandy and Jenny Dendy. You don't know any of those guys.

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:16] They've been on you. Have they been on your podcast? I recognize the names.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] Yes, they have. Listen, okay, I'm coming to Dallas July 7th and 8th. I want to meet you and your husband, and I want to introduce you to some amazing people.

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:27] Oh, awesome.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] Are you going to be in town?

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:30] They all have a choice, right?

John Dehlin [01:34:32] No, they'll love you. Some are listening right now. Are you. Are you going to be in town July 7th?

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:38] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] All right. Promise you'll connect with us.

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:42] All right. I'll put it on the calendar. Get my husband ask off. He loves having reasons to ask off from work, so.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] All right.

Sarah Newcomb [01:34:50] Yeah, I joined the meetup group. There's a meetup in Rowlett, Texas. That. That kind of was a lifesaver for me, but that's, you know, once a month I get to feel like I'm normal, talk to people. Yeah. My husband actually stays home with the kids so that I can just go and just be alone and be myself and not worry about the kids at all. And so I've got. That is a social life, but that's pretty much it. It was worth it.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] We'll do what we can. We'll do we can with that.

Sarah Newcomb [01:35:23] Still worth it. And I'm lucky. My husband. I are out together, and that's not always how it goes. So.

John Dehlin [01:35:30] So it's been good for your marriage. You feel like it's been good for your family. It's been good for your mental health?

Sarah Newcomb [01:35:35] For myself. Good for the kids.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] Okay, excellent. Well, Sarah, this has been really powerful. Just so moving. This is what I wanted to bring to the series. And Vanya and Hiram. Joe started it off great, but you really took it. You took it exactly to where I needed the series to go. So I can't thank you enough for being willing to tell your story.

Sarah Newcomb [01:36:00] Well, I hope it helps other people in the same type of situation. That's why I wanted to do it, because I search for Lamanite stories and. Yeah, I was so excited when you said you were going to be doing them back when you did the DNA thing with Thomas Murphy.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [01:36:16] And then I kept waiting. I'm like, where are they? He hasn't done them yet. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:22] Yeah. Well, everybody, Amy. Amy writes, I admire your integrity. Tim says, now you can claim who you are. So many people are just loving what you're saying, what you're saying, and Saying that you're beautiful, is that insulting? If people say you're beautiful or even if they say your skin is beautiful, do you take that as a compliment? Do you take that as.

Sarah Newcomb [01:36:45] I take it as truth. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] I love it. I love it. I love it.

Sarah Newcomb [01:36:52] Yeah. Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] So are you comfortable in the sun now?

Sarah Newcomb [01:36:57] I am. I have been. You know, when I've been taking my kids out swimming, I. I pull my hair up in this big, messy bun and just happily stand there. I started running. I had really high anxiety after I left the church. Like, it skyrocketed. I had really high blood pressure about three months ago, like, emergency room level. So I've been running three miles a day. And I just. Yeah, I love being in the sun now. Like, I'll just be running along loving it. And it's different. Yeah, it's different. So I'm getting to. Yeah. The healing point with my skin and just now starting to work on the heritage part of what I lost.

John Dehlin [01:37:40] Metaphors of being comfortable in your own skin and of standing in the sun and in the light. And I think those have a very real meaning to you now.

Sarah Newcomb [01:37:49] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My. My major that I am doing my bachelor's degree in is actually creative writing, which I love to write. And it's interesting because I've never been able to write freely as a member. I was always like, oh, well, what will I. How will I affect people? And is this perfect enough? You know, Like, I. It kind of kept me from writing the way I truly wanted to.

Sarah Newcomb [01:38:13] And the first piece that I. That I started working in in one of my classes is actually this experience of leaving the church. It's kind of an artistic piece. It never says the word Mormon or Book of Mormon or anything, but expressing that. That destruction.

Sarah Newcomb [01:38:35] I can't capture the pain that it was in. But, yeah, person just catches on. Like, there's this fire in this grove at the end, and she burns, which is very much how it felt like the sacred grove burned for me.

Sarah Newcomb [01:38:52] But, yeah, as the stories progressed, just. It's kind of a metaphor for my life of running in the sun. I've always loved to run, and now. Yeah, been running three miles a day, sometimes five if the kids are with their daddy. So it's been good.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Let's do a jog. Let's. On Friday or Saturday morning in July, you want to. Let's all go on a jog. We'll have.

Sarah Newcomb [01:39:17] That would be awesome.

John Dehlin [01:39:18] I know. Jamie, Hannah, Sandy's a runner, and I'm sure there are others, so maybe Saturday morning, July 8th, we'll all go on a jog. Early morning.

Sarah Newcomb [01:39:26] That would be so fun.

John Dehlin [01:39:28] Let's do it.

Sarah Newcomb [01:39:28] She's excited that you volunteered.

John Dehlin [01:39:31] She will be. She will be. All right. Sarah Newcomb, this has been so delightful. I can't thank you enough for your honesty, your courage, your wisdom. And we're all inspired. And the listeners are all just. You have to go back and read the comments. Everybody's saying how inspiring you are. And I'll just add my. I'll add to it. Thanks for this amazing story. This is super important, and we just really love and appreciate your sharing it with us.

Sarah Newcomb [01:40:04] That's awesome. I'll get. I'll probably need a box of tissues. I did good. I held it together.

John Dehlin [01:40:10] Hey, we love. We love tears on Mormon Stories.

Sarah Newcomb [01:40:13] Means a lot.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] Thank you. All right, well, I'll just close and thank everyone for tuning in. We had a really good group. We had over 100 people at one point simultaneously listening. Facebook tells me right now that over 50,000 people have been reached, that there's over 4.3 thousand views.

Closing Thoughts and Acknowledgments

John Dehlin [01:40:35] So this really has already started making a dent, and it's going to pick up as soon as you release it. So thanks to everyone who joined us live. We want to thank everyone who's listening. Thanks for the comments and the questions. They always make it better. So thanks everyone for joining us on Mormon Stories Live. For everyone who's joining us asynchronously, we want to thank everyone for tuning in for Mormon Stories. If you have questions or comments, if you want to share your own stories, feel free to go to MormonStories.org to this post and share your feedback. Share your appreciation for Sarah. If you have any comments or questions, you can put it there.

John Dehlin [01:41:11] If you have something mean or derogatory to say, just don't bother posting, because we don't need that kind of stuff. But we appreciate anything positive or constructive. We want to thank again everyone who donates to the Open Stories Foundation. We don't do this for the money, but we need money to do this, if that makes sense. So everyone who donates allows Amy Grubbs to work for us, allows Cody to help with the production, allows me to do what I do. The other podcaster, Gina Colvin, Dan Witherspoon, Natasha Alvar Parker, your donations go to keep all these podcasts alive, to support the mission of the foundation and to let us support more Mormons in transition, whether they stay in the church or leave it.

John Dehlin [01:41:52] But we want to thank everyone who donates and then just remind everybody who appreciates what we do, who doesn't support us financially to please consider making a monthly donation at 10 or 20 bucks a month. Those donations can keep the foundation alive and allow us to do what we do do.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] Please check out MormonStories.org events for the events coming up. Whether it's Dallas or Seattle or San Francisco or Sydney, Australia, or the Mixed Faith retreat in August, we want people to attend and we want to help as many people as possible. So please consider supporting us if you want to support the scholarship fund. There's actually a scholarship fund where you can help put people through a workshop or retreat. That money is tax deductible and you just need to email mormonstoriesmail.com if you want to donate to the scholarship fund. We'll tell you how to do that. But thanks most of all, just for everyone who supports us, who encourages us, it makes possible what we do.

John Dehlin [01:42:50] So thanks again for everyone who tuned in. And Sarah, most of all, thanks for sharing your beautiful story with us. You take care and we'll see you in a few weeks.

Sarah Newcomb [01:42:58] Thanks. Sounds good.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] All right, Sarah, take care.

Sarah Newcomb [01:43:01] You too.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.