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Tomorrow I will be interviewing Jeremy Runnels. Please post your questions for him here.
As a bit of background, in February 2012, Jeremy experienced a crisis of faith, which subsequently led to a faith transition in the summer of 2012. In the spring of 2013, Jeremy was approached and asked by a Church Education System (CES) Director to share his concerns and questions about the LDS Church’s origins, history, and current practices. In response, Jeremy wrote what later became publicly known as Letter to a CES Director.
Letter to a CES Director very quickly went viral on the internet. The CES Director responded that he read the “very well written” letter and that he would provide Jeremy with a response. No response ever came.
In the fall of 2013, FairMormon, an unofficial LDS apologetic group, publicly released an analysis of Letter to a CES Director. In response, Jeremy published Debunking FAIR’s Debunking.
“I believe that members and investigators deserve all of the information on the table to be able to make a fully informed and balanced decision as to whether or not they want to commit their hearts, minds, time, talents, income, and lives to Mormonism.”
Please post your questions for Jeremy here.
I know you responded to the FAIR “answers” to your letter, but did you get a response yet from the “CES Director” and if so, was it good?
Do you have any idea how many people have read your letter and any idea how many people it has empowered to make the transition away? Has anyone in authority tried to address any of the concerns you have listed?
At what level was the person (or persons) who decided to defer/avoid any response to your Letter to a CES Director?
We’ve heard over and over where people are asking for direct answers from the leadership of the Church and end up with nothing. Even when the “leadership” does give “responses” such as the essays that are currently showing up on the Church website, the answers aren’t complete, and seem to give half truths but are a slight admission of guilt. If you were to predict the future, where do you suppose all of this is headed?
Jeremy, how would you describe FAIR to someone who is unfamiliar with the organization? Could you explain some of their most common practices/tactics in defending the church? Why or why not do you think these approaches are credible?
How would you respond to someone who points to FAIR as a scholarly source that will provide you with all the answers you need? I’ve found this is a common response by believers when their own faith feels threatened. It is easier to point to a 3rd party to answer your questions than try to find answers for themselves.
What has been the response of your family to your letter, assuming they have seen it? Did your grandfather see the letter and did he react to the non-response from the CES director?
I applaud Jeremy’s efforts at pushing back on the traditional apologetic responses.
However, I’m curious for Jeremy to address the Givensian approach to the questions he raises in his letter – that is, how does he feel about the idea that it is precisely God’s design to make Mormonism blatantly imperfect and full of problems, so as to require us to act on faith rather than acting on knowledge?
I understand that theory, however it makes no sense. If we truly believe god is our father in the exact and true sense why would he provide a crpytic source to follow? Why would he bury his answers in contradictions and blatant falsehoods. God does not lie, he is a being of truth, and nothing i can find anywhere says that God would intentionally lead me off his trail.
I also point out that faith by its nature is something you believe without knowledge. However it is still true just not proved at that moment in time. If something sold as fact, like the Book of Abraham, I can have FAITH that the story is true. I can’t read Egyptian and don’t know how to translate it so I take it on faith that it is true. Then when I find out that it is not I am a fool to have faith in something proven to not be true. Had the church said from Day 1 that the Book of Abraham was an inspired writing Joseph smith got from god after looking at the Egyptian Papyri then I would choose to have faith in it or not. Later if a translation surfaced that said that the translation was not accurate my faith would not have been shattered as the church didn’t say it was a direct translation. That is not how it happened. Up and until recently it was taught that from day 1 it was a direct character for character translation. I could give example after example of this. and I see now way that God would operate that way. If he wants me to have faith without evidence their are lots of ways around that without saying Lies. Faith that God is exists for example is faith as I cannot prove it and it has not been disproved. However most of the beliefs in the LDS religion have been PROVEN false. God simply does not lie, and he never asks people to have faith in a lie. He just tells you to trust him and doesn’t give you all the details.
Faith is believing without evidence. But when one believes despite evidence to the contrary, that is delusion.
That’s not Givens’s position.
James- you can use that approach with literally any position which has significant evidence against it, many and most religions do. Of course what the religion is teaching is not fallible, instead God wants us to struggle but believe anyways regardless of any evidence or logic which disproves the truth claims we espouse. In other words this is a nice rhetorical position which allows people to advocate positions which are simply false (e.g. of course we must struggle to believe, that what God wants)
You mentioned recently (on reddit I think?) that you would be stepping away from the post-mormon community to pursue additional interests. If FAIR or other apologists continue to criticize your efforts, would you ever feel compelled to return to the ring and respond?
Jeremy: Do you ever doubt the credibility of any of your sources? Have you ever considered adding “confidence ratings” to your information and conclusions? I think the CES letter is great, but some of the information is certainly more credible than others. This doesn’t mean any of it is false, but some conclusions depend on hearsay and biased sources.
What has been the reaction of your family (parents, siblings, etc.) to the Letter? I’m assuming you have many extended family members who are TBMs, so I’m curious as to their treatment of you after the Letter blew up.
Jeremy- what do you think about the strategey of staying in the church to not hurt those around you? I’m an RM, generational mormon, married in temple, 4 kids etc…same as you. I am sure that no religion has it right. BUT–do I really destroy all sense of peace by leaving? I would destroy my parents, husband, aunts, uncles, friends….What have you done with this path of destruction left behind you? What advice can you give? Is it worth the drama? Is all the pain caused worth living an “authentic” life. I’d love your thoughts on this. There are so many of us with this concern.
This makes me ill. Your children are being lied to and sold a fraud and the solution for you is to keep the peace.
Can’t have it both ways. You are either the problem in this situation or the solution. The solution ismtotake an open position that Mormonism is a proven fraud. What a weak position. “Keep the peace.” Don’t upset the Mormon church, they might make my life unpleasant as they consume another generation of the children of another closeted NOM. Sheesh.
I wish it were completely black and white but it isn’t. That’s the trouble with this stuff — with any religion. No one knows all the answers. I was born into this culture and religion. I didn’t choose it. It wouldn’t be any different if I were a Muslim or Hindu. Going a different route than my entire family will hurt those around me and cause much grief . My question really is—- is it worth it? It’s not about keeping the peace it’s about a sick game of “would you rather .” It’s about looking at the entire picture and making a choice.
How does Mr. Runnells deal with the fact that their are people in the Church that have spent more time studying Church History then he has been alive and their testimonies are very much intact? I am thinking of James Allen, Richard Bennett, Robert Millet, Richard Bushman among others and they all have PH.D’s in the subject. is it possible that the study of History and the acquisition and maintaining of a testimony are two seperate subjects?
I’m curious how you know that Richard Bushman’s testimony is intact. Perhaps he is an active member, but does his testimony match up with yours? I would sincerely like to know.
In the various books, articles, podcasts I have listened to him, and his still attending Church, I don’t know he doesn’t sounds like an apostate to me
Just because someone attends church (even regularly) does not mean they believe in the foundational claims of mormonism, nor does it mean that they believe that it has any eternal saving powers more than any other church. People have a wide variety of reasons and motives that they remain members in the church and attend meetings.
Probably the same way ex-Muslims deal with the fact that there are Muslim intellectuals that have spent more time studying the history of Islam that still have “testimonies” intact.
Precisely, so studying History, Christian or Islamic isn’t a ticket, if you get your bearings straight
sorry, isn’t a ticket out of the Church or community
Right, but the LDS church claims to be the one and only true religion. Islam claims to be the only true religion. If some smart well-read people stay in Islam despite any flaws, we can expect some smart well-read people to stay in Mormonism despite the flaws. But obviously both can’t be right about being the only true religion.
This is why people like Bushman have a testimony more like, and I quote: “When I live the Mormon way I am the man I want to be.” (Source: I heard him say this in person) His testimony is NOT, “I know the church is true. I know that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus. I know the Book of Mormon is literally what it claims to be.”
the way Muslims and Mormons go about finding about how their way is true are different. Muslims believe they are born with a testimony, Mormons don’t and then the veil is here and people forget and reality sets in but life brings out that testimony, but Muslims don’t pray to Allah to know if it’s true or not. So, similarities and differences which is to be expected. Maybe Bushman says that or believes that or he intends that kind of testimony but he phrases it differently, who knows, I am not around him to know.
As to who is right, guess we’ll have to wait until the next life!
On a side note if Runnells found their were answers to all these questions would he come back to church?
Do you have believing family members still? What are their comments or reactions to you and the letter? Did they know about it when you first wrote it? Do they realize now how far it’s spread? Did you experience greater negativity from them (TBM family or friends) because of this?
Do you ever regret writing the letter or that it has gone so viral? Do you feel like it keeps you pulled into the church, due to the feedback & responses, where you might have otherwise left all the church things and thoughts behind?
How many hours or days went into researching & writing the letter? For the response to FAIR?
Since you put up cesletter.com, what sort of traffic do you see visiting the website & downloads of the CES Letter PDF?
What have been some of the positive responses you’ve seen due to the letter? What are some of the negative?
BTW, I am so looking forward to this interview. I consider John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnells to be the two most helpful people in the journey following my faith crisis and I owe so much of what my life is today to the both of you. Nothing but love & respect from me for both of you!
These would be my questions also. The time and energies put into the CES Letter and all that has followed seem so huge!
Jeremy, have you gotten lash back around the topic of TIME and ENERGIES of studying all of this out compared to what perhaps you used to pour yourself into building a testimony on the tenants of “follow the prophet and all will be okay.”
Jeremy thanks for your work, it helped my wife understand my own concerns and doubts much better then I could ever explain them. It was a crucial component to getting us on the same page and eventually helped us in saving our marriage.
It seems most often doubts start with just one spouse in a marriage. How do you recommend bringing up doubts about the church to spouses/family members/ close friends and do you endorse using resources such as your letter?
All religions are essentialy man made- which is why the truth about Mormon history doesn’t really bother me. Even if the Book of Mormon was complete fiction, the book of Abraham was written all by JS and not ‘translated’, the first vision has 4 different accounts, those things don’t bother me as much as the way we conduct ourselves morally and ethically today (in regards to homosexuality, women, capitalism, tithing, humanitarian aid, teaching gender roles, race etc.) I guess I’m surprised that some people get so upset that the religion could all be made up- if people find goodness and inspiration from a certain community/religion, than I think it’s a good thing, but the way the corporatized and correlated church conducts itself today is the truly troubling aspect about Mormonism- not the fact that JS could have/did invent the entire religion void of divine help.
After all of your very in-depth and thoughtful research, do you ever foresee a time when realists and apologists can find an agreeable common ground where each feels their integrity has been maintained?
Do I understand correctly that you don’t want mass distribution, in printed form, of your CES Letter to Mormons? Not that you’re obligated, but would you mind explaining your reasoning behind this request?
What do you say to critics who say things like “clearly this guy never had a testimony” or “this guy didn’t search for answers from the organization he loved; rather, he went to anti-material”.
I know you address that in your letter, but for those critics who missed it or ignored it, can you emphasize here how your process began with looking for answers from the Church itself (and FAIR).
Jeremy, what are your feelings on how your letter has become (for lack of a better word) a “tract” that Exmormons can use to easily explain many of their problems. I know that one of the complaints FAIR raised was that your letter seemed (to them) to actually be written not to the CES Director but rather to a general audience (with the implied argument that you are dishonest in how you present yourself in the letter and intended from the beginning to write a document that you planned to be widely read). I think they’re full of crap with that (having taken the time myself to sit down and try to succinctly write down my issues and eventually stopping after producing several thousand words), but I would like to know what you expected of the future audience and future reception while you were writing the first draft of your letter.
Joseph Smith taught that happiness is the object and design of our existence. Having gone through your faith transition, how does your present happiness compare with your life prior to the faith crisis and your life during the faith crisis? Where does your present happiness come from? If you could, would you put the genie back in the bottle?
In describing the factors leading to your faith transition, would you say the transition was more a result of one major “blow” or more a cummulative effect of the many issues? Which issue(s) were the most difficult for you and why?
Some members who have experienced faith crises explain that the bigger harm to their testimonies came not from the information itself, but from the reaction of their leaders and families. Was this the case for you?
Do many people in your ward/stake know about the letter and your involvement? Do those that know treat you differently now?
How much money have you raised in donations from the cesletter.com website?
Why did you ignore LGBT issues?
If you were going to write the letter today, how different would it be?
What was Jeremy’s general writing process when drafting the document? How did he determine which issues to include/exclude, what sources would be considered credible (not just to him but to his audience), how much time did it take to draft and edit the CES letter (and the subsequent debunking document), etc.?
Does he have any personal connection to the futuremissionary.com webpage that prominently displayed your CES letter? (That’s where I first saw it.)
Also, what are his plans moving forward as to how long he will maintain and update the document? I believe he added the Late War issues after the document had already been released. Does he plan to continue making updates?
And a few random questions:
What is his opinion on the new gospel topics essays? Does he think that if he had been exposed to these issues at church as a youth, he would have not left the church?
How has he “traded up”? Does he feel that he have lost anything of value from leaving the church that he needed to supplement through another organization? If so, how has he and his family accomplished this?
First of all, I’d like to express how excited I am for this interview. And to Jeremy, the research and time you put into this has been so helpful in my own faith transition/crisis. So thanks!
I have several questions, feel free to choose any of them.
Did you ever expect your work to become so popular and well circulated? How do you feel about its success?
Other than just responding to the actual CES individual who challenged you to organize your thoughts about the church, was there another motive or reason behind all the work you’ve done? Personal gratification/validation?
Would you consider yourself “done” with Mormonism? What, if anything, would it take to bring you back sometime later in life?
Thanks again for your time and effort in all this. I found the letter to be very organized and clear. And thank you John for doing the interview.
I believe it was your grandfather who initiated contact with the CES director, does he know him personally? Since you never got a response from him to your letter, did you ever hear back comments of any kind through your grandfather? What were your grandfather’s responses to the letter?
In recent years, the LDS church has seemed to be slowly straying away from the distinctly Mormon doctrines of the past and adopting a more generalized, family-centered doctrinal core in line with the majority of modern American Protestantism. Things like Heavenly Mother, becoming gods in the next life, and the Lamanite origins of Native Americans have been de-emphasized or taken out of gospel doctrine manuals completely. Even the idea that we are in the tail end of the latter-days or that Jesus’ second coming is imminent has been downplayed in recent years.
Why do you think this shift is happening? Do you think that the LDS leadership are trying to slowly shift the church into a more mainline Protestant sect, or is something else at play?
Did you read Michael White’s “Why I No Longer Believe” before writing “Letter to a CES Editor?” Just barely read your letter last week and enjoyed it. great job!
I would be quite interested in Jeremy’s current belief system. A great number of former believing Mormons that I know have a tendency to become as dogmatic in their non-belief (atheist/agnostic) as they were in their Mormon belief. Has that happened to Jeremy? Does he still hold any spiritual beliefs?
I heard the letter may be turned into a movie. Is that true?
I am interested in knowing how you and your wife have dealt with the emotional impact of losing your faith. For my wife and I it was devastating, my wife went into a depression, and bouts of anger, she has been tossed to and fro and feels betrayed and lied to. How did you wind up dealing with it and what was your emotional impact?
Much the way that Mormonthink posted a billboard sized message alongside the freeway , have you ever considered taking out a full page add in the SLTribune that contains your unanswered letter ?
Any chance you could change the background and text colors on your website to make it more readable? White text on orange background is not great. Thanks.
Following your crisis of faith, could you have carved out a niche or path within the traditional Church community for yourself, or do you feel that would have compromised your intellectual integrity/honesty? How do you feel about the idea of staying in the Church even though the person has serious doubts about the Church’s foundational truth claims – is that person an honest spiritual seeker or is he/she a dishonest person without the courage to stand up and leave?
What’s been your biggest source of peace since leaving the church? Post Mormonism, what inspires you now?
Many people over the past year have really appreciated the letter and shared it with a lot of people. Some people have even posted how they shared it with ward email lists, posted it on church bulletin boards, and even as of late emailed the entire LDS Business college student roster.
Did you imagine your letter being used in this manner? Do you see these types of dissemination as a positive thing or a negative?
Jeremy, what was the event(s) that triggered your faith crisis? Was it one particular event or doctrine or a collection of issues that ultimately was the trigger?
Many liberal, or uncorrelated Mormons, or “pastoral apologists” claim that their faith is not based in the history of Mormonism, but in their present day lived experience (where issues like, say, polygamy, book of Mormon anachronisms, etc don’t have any lived consequences). How much of the issues in Letters to CES Director are only issues because the church itself emphasizes certain truth claims? Rephrased, if the church did not paint such a rosy picture of its history, etc., would these issues not be deal-breakers?
“What is your goal in writing this letter? Are you looking to disprove the claims of the church? What if all of these issues are valid and provable….is there still valid theology or universal truths within Mormonism and within Mormon scripture(s), despite the fallibility of men?
Many of us wrote similar letters to our family, and friends. The initial fear of how it would be accepted was tough enough. How is your family and friends handling your new found celebrity?
For me most my family was supportive, but do you have examples of ones who are osracizing or outright shunning you?
Hi Jeremy. Two years ago I created the Temple Name Oracle, and in recent months I’ve been floored at the number of people who have said that it was an instrumental piece in leading them out of the church or keeping them from joining it in the first place. While my own personal watershed issue that pushed me out was polygamy, the temple ordinances sealed the deal. So my two questions are these:
1) Have you thought about including the current temple “new name” list in the CES letter? Even I am surprised by how effective it is in opening eyes and minds.
2) Have you chosen to avoid addressing troubling aspects of the temple, such as the death oaths (specifically the throat slitting and disembowelment that was explicitly and graphically threatened prior to the 1930’s) because you don’t want to alienate TBMs by delving into the sacred?
When you first started to take a look into some of the issues mentioned in your book, were you skeptical of “non-faith promoting” information that you would find from outside sources contradicting LDS teachings? Did you feel as though these outside sources were feeding you well-convoluted lies, or did it feel like each portion of new information was a proverbial puzzle piece of a whole picture that made much more sense?
Also, many LDS people seem to think that the beginnings of questioning a longstanding LDS faith are rooted in a sense of fundamental guilt for spiritual shortcomings, and that the journey of investigation of the church is merely a means of justifying and relieving transgressions and the shame that follows. When you first started to look deeper into church history and facts, were you in any way motivated by a need to relieve guilt or shame for some kind of perceived transgressions or actions contrary to church teachings?
Jeremy, how much of your original letter is still intact? How much have you added/changed from what you sent to the CES director?
Final question:
With the rise of the information age, and the inter-connectivity that nearly all people in North America have access to, what do you think the future of the LDS church in the United States holds? Where do you see the LDS church in 20 years? And do you think that the LDS church can survive without finding a way to address the fundamental issues mentioned in your book?
I look forward to the podcast!
Jeremy, your letter (and FAIR rebuttal response) was pretty well documented and researched. The discussion points are clouded with age, interpretation, and misinformation yet it seemed that you did a fairly good job digging to the core of some of the key issues. What is your educational background?
If you were to pick one topic as the key to evaluating the truth claims of the LDS church, what would it be?
To me it seems the great problem than the items you identified in the letter is the cover-up. The pious fraud of telling the faith-promoting, whitewashed version rather than owning or admitting to the embarrassing history and beliefs is the greatest problem the church has when discussing its past. There seems to be some small steps being made by the church to address these concerns, at least lightly, in new seminary or institute manuals. Do you think the church teaching these things to teenagers or adults will help keep people in the church (innoculating them against the traditional attacks) or will it open the door for members to recognize the almost-silliness of magical thinking the church is founded on?
Thanks, No_Hidden_Agenda
I really think that it is great that he has told people not to spread the CES Letter in inappropriate or offensive ways. I also think it is admirable and that it is a good example for others to move on with your life once you have made a decision about the Mormon Church. My question is: do/did you feel a void after leaving the church and how are/did you fill that void? Another question is: In your opinion, what is the most damning evidence against the church?
-Have you set boundaries or rules with your wife to help keep family harmony?
-What has and hasn’t worked?
-Have you thought about what age you would share your feelings about the Mormon Church with your children?
-If your wife insists on raising them LDS, how do you reconcile this with your personal integrity as a father?
-What would you do in this scenario?: Your 12 year old child desires to share the Book of Mormon with her friends at school and you can see that she is developing her own testimony. Do you intervene in any way? If you let her figure things out on her own as she matures, do you think she will resent you for not saying anything to her earlier?
-Any other advice or experiences you wish to share as a doubter with a TBM spouse.
THIS!
What do you do with your children? Is your wife still TBM?
Jeremy’s “letter” reads like a typical anti-Mormon tract (like so many others) and doesn’t actually address the question “why I lost my testimony.” I wonder why Jeremy went to all the trouble of “reinventing the wheel” when so many other lists of problems are widely available.
I’m also curious about the psychological progression that led Jeremy away from faith. Was his faith based on nothing but bald claims of a clean and pure church history? How would he respond to accusations that he’s merely a simpleton?
Amen. I noticed the same thing. You’ll notice his “letter” doesn’t ask questions so much as it makes statements. And most of the arguments are old and largely debunked. A lot of time devoted to silly issues like KJV english appearing in the BOM. There are reasonable answers to such questions which he doesn’t even acknowledge existing much less give sincere consideration. It’s obvious to me that he has an agenda. His tone is that of mocking. As I understand the history he had already left the church, totally inactive, but then his father tried to debate him back in. So his dad got the institute director involved and this is what ensued. Jeremy puts together a standard tract of anti-Mormon claims and here we all are now discussing this like it’s something new. Name one single new thing he came up with? I’m not aware of anything.
I should add that I am no longer a believer in Mormonism myself, and that I wrote a (private) letter to family friends about why I left the church. But my letter was about the spiritual experiences and realizations about my own assumptions and thought processes that led me to a new set of beliefs. Even with my perspective I find Jeremy’s letter childish and aggressive. It takes the “buckshot” approach where you plaster your readers with new arguments faster than they can consider and address them. Creationists use the same strategy against science.
Well, his “letter” strikes me as dishonest because it’s presented with the guise of a humble truth-seeker. The issues presented aren’t what led him out of the church, he was already out. And if they were what led him out, the issues are far more complex and “grey” than the black and white manner in which he presents them. Like Tim says, buckshot approach. There are literally books-worth of materiel written for each bullet point he lists. It’s not just a matter of him losing his testimony so to speak, but he’s critical of the church in a very juvenile and amateurish way. I would consider myself to still be a believer, but not in the TBM sense. I’m highly critical of church history. I just find his arguments really dishonest, the presentation, all of it.
It’s obvious that neither of one of you trolls have read the letter because if you did you would clearly see that Jeremy was honest and upfront about his disbelief and disaffection.
Oh, and it wasn’t his dad that got the CES Director involved. It was his grandpa. You would know this if you had actually opened the CES Letter and read it as he specifically states his grandpa on page 5.
Jeremy debunks Tim and Ed’s position that Jeremy misrepresented himself in the letter here: https://cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/ces-conclusion.html
Ed,
I think you should send the reasonable answers that you have to Jeremy’s CES Director so that he can answer the questions. I would love to see you debunk any of them. Pick five.
The title of the letter is “Why I lost my testimony” not “New evidence criticizing the church”. Many of the issues outlined in the letter aren’t new, but they are real issues backed up with real evidence. He, as well as the rest of us, are allowed to feel upset when this kind of information crops up. I see this letter as a well organized list of reasons why Jeremy personally felt like he couldn’t stay any longer. I don’t think he’s trying to take down the whole church with it…
I am currently a non-believing member, and when I started losing faith in the church I wanted to make a list just like this. The only difference is he actually did it.
Did your “crisis of faith” take place upon the investigation of church history and your writing of the letter – or did it happen when there was no response to your letter (and the unsatisfying response from FAIR)? In other words, was your mind already made up on your own investigation (and did you stop attending church at that point), or did you leave room for a well-reasoned answer by someone who knows more on the subject than you?
Second question:
Were there elements of your testimony that were based on personal experience and not based on history, and if so, how did your thinking change in regards to those? (Example: you “test” all of the commandments to see if they make you happy and bring the promised blessings, like tithing, chastity, reading scriptures, etc.).
Final question:
Before your doubts became serious and you were an active member, were you happy in the church, did it improve the quality of your life? Or did the fact that it was all allegedly based on a lie taint that experience before you knew that was the case?
Either I missed it or it wasn’t clear from your letter where you stand now on religion and god in general. Now that you find good reason to doubt the LDS church’s claim to truth and authority, do you find room to put faith in any other religion or system of beliefs? Have you explored other religions, and have you found any religion with a logical claim to truth that doesn’t have so many historical blunders – or do you now consider yourself atheist/agnostic?
If anyone else knows and wants to respond to this, thank you.
Sorry another question again — do you believe that church leaders are “covering up” the truth about the church – or that they truly believe in god, the first vision, etc.
If you feel that they believe, why did you feel betrayed (who betrayed you)? Do you feel equally betrayed when new evidence casts doubt on previous theories regarding science and history?
If you feel that they don’t believe it but consciously perpetrate lies and deception, why do you think they do it?
Jeremy,
I’ve referenced your Letter to family members to help them understand my own faith crisis, so thank you for that. Since the “shock” phase of my crisis, I have been gravitating toward a more existential philosophy to life. To what extent do you believe the individual has sole responsibility for giving meaning to life, rather than society or organized religion? How has your faith evolved since experiencing your faith crisis?
Question for Jeremy: (hi jeremy!)
How do you deal with the notoriety of your name, now? Were you concerned that people (perhaps from your industry) googling your name would see “anti-mormon” results, and has that actually caused any problems for you? How does your wife feel about your fame?
Have you been disciplined by the LDS Church for this?
I would also like to know the answer to this one.
I think you did a great job describing your concerns to CES. I loved the part where you described the difference between “Faith” and “Delusion”. That was a great addition. The evidence is overwhelming.
Questions:
1. Temple Garments. Did you do much research into why these were instituted? What is the history of them? I feel like garments are a way for members to judge other members. I remember the old days when we were told they were magical and prevented injury. I would love to see them do away with these.
2. I’ve noticed a lot lately that people practically worship the temple, even though it’s just a building. They hang pictures of them all over their houses and make that the ultimate goal of their children. It’s a bizarre idolatry, that drives me crazy. People away say “I feel the spirit” there, but they are BEAUTIFUL buildings. How can they not see that they get just as emotionally moved by other grand structures, or even (if not more often) beautiful scenes of nature.
All that said, I’m a closet non-believer, going to church 50% of the time. I see so many problems with the church, but I don’t hate it. I just don’t feel loyal to it, as I once did. But I love to see that there are so many people who have the guts to stand up for integrity and honesty.
One more comment:
Everyone and everything evolves through time. We’ve all done and said things in the past that if were replayed to us now, would be totally embarrassing, and not reflect our current viewpoints. That being said, would you like to see the religion reform? What would they need to do to make the religion right, in order for you to stay in it? Is it even possible in your opinion?
pages? Why not make it easier to view on mobile devices?
Why don’t you create a HTML version of the CES letter so that search engines can index it and link to specific pages? Why not make it easier to view on mobile devices?
Has any media contacted him or would he be willing to review this with the media like NPR or such.
A good interviewer would fact check the CES letter themselves which would lead to some interesting discussion.
It would also be interesting, although I doubt it would ever happen, if LDSinc had to respond publicly to some of the points made.
How can I donate to keep the site up and running?
Do you have any questions you would like crowdsourced?
Do you have any regrets about word choices or snarkiness in the first version?
How did FAIR’s ad-hominem attacks make you feel?
How many people have thanked you via email or other online forums?
Thanks!
Does it not really just come down to is the LDS the one and only tru church , regardless of history ? And in time the church might even drop that truth claim anyways , do u think?
I want to say thanks to you both for what you do for Mormonism to help people make informed choices because the Church, obviously, is not doing this. I’d like Jeremy to talk discuss the translations: How are they going? What languages are you planning on doing? How can others help and get involved so this can get out as quickly as possible? This would be a great crowdsourcing project. Looking forward to this!
Also, what do you see as being the future of the Church? Do you even care?
Jeremy, thanks for taking my question. In your opinion, do you think there is a “brain drain” in the church where the more intelligent and studied members are learning about the church and leaving it. And the less inquisitive members staying?
In my experience, I was angry at God after leaving the LDS Church. I claimed to be an atheist, but really it was easier to claim God didn’t exist than to admit I was mad at him.
My Question is: Have your feelings against God changed since writing the CES Letter?
First of all, the letter to CES director was very well written and very compelling. I was already on some rocky ground for various reasons but it pretty much sealed the churches fate for me.
However, I would be curious to hear some feedback and opinions regarding a couple of things.
1- I have read the account of Mary Rollins and her meeting Joseph when she was 12 and how they had a very strong connection. She even mentioned at a prayer gathering how “His countenance Shone,” and seemed almost transparent.
“It seems as though the solemnity of Eternity rested upon all of us. He seemed almost transfixed, he was looking ahead and his face outshone the candle which was on a shelf just behind him. He looked as though a searchlight was inside his face and shining through every pore. I could not take my eyes from his face.” Mary recalls.
Joseph eventually went on to tell her of the plural marriage revelation and her destiny to be one if his eternal wives. She was not convinced of this law and asked to see an angel for proof, which her and her aunt purportedly did eventually see one night while in bed. Convinced, she was soon after sealed to Joseph-still being married to her ‘gentile’ husband.
2- During the 1832 dedication of the Kirkland temple, Joseph reported the temple was filled with ‘the sound of a rushing mighty wind’ and, having heard strange noises, many from the neighborhood ran to see what was going on and were quoted as having witnessed ‘a bright light like a pillar of fire’ shooting up from the central spire.
Any way to explain these things or any further research gone into this? This was at least someone other than Joseph who had supposedly seen angels and visions. Was Mary just so infatuated with Joseph that she started seeing things? Was this an elaborate and coordinated hoax between believing desperate believing members? I’ve read this a few times in various texts and it is curious and always gives me pause.
Thank you and I very much look forward to this interview!
I understand that the CES Director did not provide any answers however was there ever any follow-up contact between Jeremy and the CES Director? If so, can Jeremy share any details of that follow-up communication?
Since the “Letter To A CES Director” has become so widely distributed can Jeremy characterize the range and nature of any feedback he has received? Has anyone claimed to have had their faith strengthened by reading the “Letter”?
I’m wondering how this affected his relationship with his parents and other family members
Highly anticipating this episode.
My impression is that the document at CESLetter.com now is a revision of the original that I read in summer 2013. The current one seems a lot less emotion-driven – less angry – than the first time I read it. On the other hand, I was fresh in my disaffection during the first reading; so maybe the second time around, I was just less sensitive about criticism of Mormonism. Was it indeed toned down to be less angry or is it just me?
Have you thought about making the letter available for free as an ebook on Amazon? You can upload the pdf document directly and have it done though they prefer text documents. This is very easy to do and it will make it much easier for people who are looking for answers to find them. People can read it on their kindle etc… Based on the creative commons license I think anyone could do this as long as it is non commercial(free) so you may want to do it yourself. Just a thought.
Thanks for the work.
I’m a fan of the videos that show Richard Dawkins reading his hate mail. What are some of the most ridiculous or funny responses you have received from readers of your letter?
Since posting your letter, have you been approached by any church leadership (bishop, stake press, church headquarters, etc.) to try to resolve your doubts? If so, how did those conversations go?
Will it be awkward with my family from here on out (since “losing my faith”)?
Or will it get better?
I feel like I just need to agree with them, or never talk about anything Church related. I can’t even say that I liked a conference quote without my family thinking I am being factious or condescending somehow..
Sure at first I was a bit vocal, but I was upset that my parents had allowed me to be indoctrinated into a belief system, when they truly didn’t ‘know’ themselves if it were actually true. They are just sheep. I kindly expressed that (I told them that people are typically programmed and conditioned into their belief system, rather than choosing to be a part of it based on it’s truthfulness).
Since the first few months I have kept quiet, but there is definitely a big church-shaped elephant in the room with us whenever we have a get-together.
I am just lucky my wife has been with me throughout this hellish process!
Thanks John and Jeremy! You guys have helped me navigate this strange path I’ve found myself on.
Jeremy,
I thought your CES letter was great and pretty darn factually accurate. The only downside I see to it is that it paints history the same way that the lds church paints it. In other words it paints it as black and white.
History is complex and people are complex. You build your story based upon the sources that you use. Are you concerned that you have selected your sources to justify the story that you want to tell or are you concerned that other people will take your letter and view it as black and white and not notice the entire grayscale that exists?
That is what I was thinking, Runnells “research” is beyond dismal. Just on the Book of Abraham my question is what he thinks of Jeff Lindsay, John Gee, Kerry Muhlestein, Michael Rhodes material? Does he even know who they are?
What’s “dismal” about his research? I love all of the “examples” you listed to support this.
If you actually read Jeremy’s work, you would know that Jeremy discusses Kerry Muhlestein and his claims in the Book of Abraham section of his Debunking FAIR’s Debunking. There’s also a whole video about Kerry Muhlestein and his claims/work.
I’m pretty sure Jeremy knows about Jeff Lindsay, John Gee, and Michael Rhodes apologetics. Go ahead and ask him: cesletter@gmail.com.
I read his stuff is why I asked…you’re pretty sure? he cites none of them
This was my concern as well. Jeremy and FAIR both seem locked in black-and-white thinking. The only difference is that Jeremy sees black while FAIR sees white. Both their writings are hopelessly polemic and not objective evaluations of the issues. I would like to hear Jeremy respond to the accusation of being an immature, black-and-white thinker. I would also like him to address whether he learned this kind of thinking from the church!
John,
No question here but thank you for reengaging in gritty important interviews. I hope this is as powerful as the Sandra Tanner interviews.
Jeremy and John,
A philosophical question for each of you: Must present-day Mormonism be a tradeoff between truth and goodness? Why or why not?
These days, it seems everyone is acknowledging love and appreciation for the goodness in every-day Mormon people. This is one viewpoint that LDS apologists as well as “detractors” seem to hold in common. Richard Bushman says that he stays engaged because it makes him a better person, more Christ-like, and that his chances for being good are better by sticking with the church. This is not to say that goodness cannot be found in any tradition (sacred or secular) but just that being active in any decent tradition can help a person overcome the worst in themselves and harness the social supports and social powers that help people to be more civil. Institutions develop power and that power can be a power for good (or evil).
I have noticed in my own intellectual slide away from Mormonism, that I have also become more cynical, moody, and less generous–I am not proud of that. Your letter, and many other evidences that I have seen on MSP, elsewhere on the web, and in the history books has persuaded me that many Mormon truth claims do not hold up. I really do think you have the upper hand when it comes to the truth on the issues you have selected to examine.
But do you (meaning all those doing what you are doing) have the upper hand when it comes to goodness? (Please forgive me, I do not mean this question to be an attack on you). I think that an honest answer to the goodness question needs to be in terms of what is actual, rather than what it possible. (For example: I can easily acknowledge that it is possible for an atheist to do good. It is harder for me to see why atheism would probably increase goodness. I bring up atheism here because all the criticisms of any religious tradition can be leveled at all religious traditions.)
John has mentioned on a radio interview recently that Church leadership is in a very difficult position. If they relax their truth-claims, i.e. in John Dehlin’s words become more “mamby-pamby” then people will fall away and the church may loose much of its power. I think that to a large extent the church uses its power to promote goodness. Sometimes, I have to go hang out in primary and at mutual activities to be reminded of this. I think we have plenty of history to show Dehlin’s thesis is true, but the internet is relaxing the Church’s truth claims despite all the Church can do, so the truth coming out is inevitable.
I wonder, though, if goodness is inevitable. Will goodness flourish despite the shape and flavors of our institutions? Will there be a net gain or loss of goodness in the rupture of Mormonism? What do you think of Bushman’s and Dehlin’s theses? Are they correct? Can we only have truth OR goodness in modern-day Mormonism?
Jeremy,
Your letter was well researched and well written. However, I had to wonder at the tone.
In the introduction you say:
“I’d be pretty arrogant and ignorant to say that I have all the
information and that you don’t have answers. . . you may have new information and/or a new perspective that I may not have heard or considered before. This is why I’m genuinely interested in what your answers
and thoughts are to these troubling problems.”
I found that so refreshing. Even when one is fairly certain of the “truth” it helps so much to approach a dialogue with a person of a conflicting viewpoint, with humility; affirming them, if not their beliefs, and acknowledging that they have something to offer. However, as I began to read the letter I did not find that to be your tone. Similar to your “Open Letter to Quentin L. Cook” I read a lot of sarcasm and not a lot of love or humility. My question then is this: why did you choose such different tones for the introduction and the body of your work respectively?
Do you feel that the letter might have been met with a response from the CES Director if it had been less sarcastic? If sincere questions had been posed, rather than rhetorical statements of finality, might this letter have sparked more dialogue with faithful church members and church leaders, rather than being only popular among ex or “anti” Mormons?
I hope you read my questions and constructive criticisms as sincere, and for the purpose of making your ministry better.
Thank you again for such an impressive and honest compilation of concerns that you have with the LDS Church. Peace to you.
I guess my question is more one of process than substance. Jeremy’s experience is not unique, and we see this type of awakening frequently. Although I realize my question could sound insincere or critical, it is coming from a place of genuine interest and curiosity: How had he gotten as far as he did without confronting any of this material before? Much of his complaint seems to be about the Church’s “truth claims,” the hiding of information and the institutional deception. But how do you go through seminary, go on a mission, graduate from a Church school (with required religion courses) and take your religion seriously, without ever engaging in serious evaluation and skeptical inquiry, but rather simply taking what you have been given? I understand that there are individuals with such a temperament who will never question, but how does one go from never questioning anything to questioning everything, seemingly over night (or in the course of several months)? As a couple other folks have indicated, Jeremy’s attitude seems very black-and-white, with little room for the grayness of everything–which is the very attribute of Mormon thinking that I think causes so many objections–he has just flipped to the other side. What is his response to this criticism?
As a timeline. Was the “letter” made public on the internet before or after the FAIR response?
The issue for me in all the questions that Jeremy raised is this: Truth. Anyone who reads Christian history knows that various writers had various opinions. If it be Paul, or early Bishops, or any of the theologians through history; they all shared opinions and interpretations. This presents “gray” areas of theology. I never expected Joseph Smith to be perfect, but what Jeremy has highlighted is that the claims of the early church are divine. The statement of direct intervention by angelic visitation, God’s personal intervention, and actual artifacts in the Book of Mormon make truth claims that take away the tolerance for “gray”. You cannon have it both ways and claim direct intervention from God in person; then grant “gray” latitude for interpreting these events. Jeremy has made great points that deserve explaining if the church is indeed true.