Introduction to the Pinson Family Story

Part 1 of 7 · Ep. 1321

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:00] One.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:20] Come, come, you Saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 3, 2020, and we have a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast for you today. Sadly, happily, I don't know exactly how to describe it. We are here to showcase yet another Mormon family who has been excommunicated from the Mormon Church. The guests that we have on today are Sam and Sarah Pinson. Hi, Sam and Sarah. Welcome.

Sara Pinson [00:01:07] Hello.

Sam Pinson [00:01:08] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] And we also have two of their children. We have Olivia and Sam Jr. Pinson. Welcome, guys.

Sam Pinson [00:01:17] Thanks.

Olivia Pinson [00:01:18] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] And some may take issue with the fact that I'm actually using the word excommunication, because as we've covered on Mormon Stories podcast in the past six months or so, the LDS Church of the Mormon Church made a new announcement that they were going to stop calling these disciplinary councils excommunications, and instead they were going to call them removal of membership meetings or something to that effect. But, you know, if it looks like a duck and it smells like a duck, it's probably a duck. I personally am taking these announcements as euphemisms. In other words, the church is just trying to use flowery, positive names to describe something that really hasn't changed. And what happened was a few days ago, Sam Pinson was excommunicated from the Mormon Church in Ammon, Idaho, which is near Idaho Falls. And it was for, as I understand it, just some posts on Facebook that talk about the factual history of the church and some of the problems with the Mormon Church. So it was for apostasy. It was for just open and free expression of opinions or concerns or feelings or problematic history. And, you know, it's a tragedy whenever the Mormon Church excommunicates people. I've been excommunicated. Many of my dear friends have as well, for apostasy. And this is extra interesting because Sam served as a bishop in ammon, Idaho for four and a half years up until as recently as 2018. So two years ago, Sam was bishop of his Ammon, Idaho ward. And. And fast forward two years and he and his family, I'll say his family, because when you excommunicate a parent, you usually excommunicate the whole family. That's how it works out. So don't get me wrong, only Sam had the disciplinary council and only his membership records were removed. But really, in effect, they've excommunicated the whole family, and we'll be talking about that today as well. So that's what we're here to talk about. We've got four members of this wonderful family. They woke up super early this morning in Idaho Falls and drove here to Salt Lake City, Utah. And we're just really thrilled, Sam and Sarah, to have you guys on Mormon Stories Podcast. Welcome.

Sam Pinson [00:03:39] Thank you, John.

Sara Pinson [00:03:40] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] Well, it's not the most fun sort of conditions, but we really appreciate your courage and your willingness to share your stories because, you know, as we've always believed on Mormon Stories podcast, sunshine is the best disinfectant. And the church is trying to make progress in this area, but. But clearly they have a ways to go. So thanks for being willing to stand up and tell your story.

Sam Pinson [00:04:05] Thank you.

Sara Pinson [00:04:05] Absolutely.

Sam Pinson [00:04:06] These stories are very helpful.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] And I also just want to thank Sam Jr. And Olivia as well. It's really awesome that you guys are here because the youth voice is really important.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:04:18] Awesome to be here.

Olivia Pinson [00:04:19] Yeah. Thank you.

Sam and Sarah's Mormon Upbringings

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Okay, so Sam and Sarah, let's begin, you guys. Let's start where we always kind of start, which is with your kind of Mormon background. This is kind of the Mormon cred portion of the interview. But let's just talk about both of your Mormon upbringings. And Sam, let's go ahead and start with you.

Sam Pinson [00:04:40] Okay. I grew up in the church. My parents were both active and they taught me the gospel. I went to primary. Where were you raised? I was born in Oklahoma, but moved to Southern California when I was about 4. So Southern California, Orange County. Grew up the San Fernando Valley.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:05:01] Granada Hills.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:05:04] So I attended.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] How many siblings?

Sam Pinson [00:05:07] Oh, sorry. A little bit more about my family.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:05:10] Yeah. So there are eight kids in the family.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Oh, my goodness.

Sam Pinson [00:05:12] Big family. I'm the third oldest and we all, we were all in as a family together. Went to every sacrament meeting. Didn't think of general conference as a weekend off. Attended in the Stake center wearing our Sunday clothing. Wore Sunday clothing all day on Sundays. I believed. I was. I don't remember a moment when yesterday I didn't believe and then the next day I did believe. It was the, the. The growing light, growing certainty. That kind of experience for me.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] Was your mom a stay at.

Sam Pinson [00:05:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And what was your dad's profession?

Sam Pinson [00:05:58] Software developer. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] With software we would know or

Sam Pinson [00:06:03] quite a bit of it was. He was self employed and so it was proprietary stuff just for his clients. And he worked for IBM for a while.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Global Services. You don't have Global Services? Long time ago.

Sam Pinson [00:06:18] Okay. My father was a seminary teacher. That was kind of early morning seminary teacher. That was kind of his lifelong calling in church. I don't want to say the wrong number, but I think it was at least 25 years he taught early morning seminary. So I had my father as my seminary teacher. I loved that experience.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] Was he a Bruce R. McConkie kind of Mormon?

Sam Pinson [00:06:45] I think so. We have Mormon doctrine on the shelf. And in my experience since then, people have told me that I take things too literally and have adopted a black and white view that's not appropriate. So I guess that label applies to me as well. I graduated from seminary and before I was old enough to serve a mission, I kept on going to seminary because my dad was the teacher. So I guess I could do that because I loved it so much. I memorized all the Scripture Mastery scriptures, Scripture Chase.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Were you in Scripture Chase competitions? Yes.

Sam Pinson [00:07:25] I love that. I love that. I had a church teacher leader challenge me at one point to memorize the Sermon on the Mount, like he was going to memorize it, I was going to memorize it, and we'd see who could do it or who could do it first. And I did it. I memorized the Sermon on the Mount. And then I thought, well, why stop there? And I actually, at one point, I can't do it now. But at one point I had Matthew chapter one through 12 memorized. I could quote. I loved the Scriptures. I found in them, certainty, all the answers for anything that I needed to find answers for in my life. A story that I thought of in thinking about what to share with my story here was I took an alternate route educationally. I went to junior college as a teenager, and I was one day waiting for a class to begin. It was a warm, sunny day in Southern California. There was an outdoor pavilion next to where my classroom was, and the window was open. There was a class still going on. And I was waiting for the class to start. And I could hear the teacher. It was a philosophy class inside. He said something like, if God spoke to Moses and told us about the creation of the earth and all this stuff that we have in the Scriptures, why doesn't God speak to man on earth today? And all the. My Mormon spidey sense kicked off. And I knew that I was there in that place at that moment to answer his question. So I stuck my head into the window and I testified, there is a prophet on the earth today, and his name is Gordon B. Hinckley, and God does speak to him. And the whole class turned around and anyway, I withdrew. But that's Just an example of how passionate I was about my testimony and about the church.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] What was it like to grow up a Mormon in a California high school?

Sam Pinson [00:09:35] We're definitely in the minority, but there was, in my ward and in my stake, there were great kids, there were a lot of youth and that's where I found a lot of my friends and I loved it. Steak dances, youth conferences, temple trips. Temple trips. That's where I found my friends and enjoyed it very much.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Did you ever have any, did you ever sort of have any moments of doubt as a teenager where you weren't sure the church was true or did you have those moments where you were wanted to get your own testimony, Moroni's promise, so you'd read the Book of Mormon and pray to know it's true? Any of that.

Sam Pinson [00:10:17] So I definitely did have experiences where you attend a Sunday school lesson, talk about getting your own testimony, not relying on your parents, faith, Moroni's promise. And I did all of that. I did not like. No, I didn't doubt.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] You didn't even doubt.

Sam Pinson [00:10:34] I don't remember in my youth any periods of doubt. It was just knowing it better and more firmly. And so yeah, yeah, so I did have spiritual experience where I had warm feelings about what I was asking and I felt like I had answers to my prayers and that I knew that it was true.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Did you have. There are a lot of Mormon teens who hear messages around sexuality and have a lot of guilt and shame. Bishops visits or internalized kind of shame around matters of sexuality. Was any of that part of your experience?

Sam Pinson [00:11:16] Absolutely, yeah. The church culture and in my home was a very sex negative environment. And so as my sexuality developed, it was an extremely shameful and guilt ridden part of my life. It was crippling at times and I did my best to suppress any kind of sexual feeling and to repent. There were lots of tears and maybe even bordering on depression that I couldn't fix this within myself. That the natural man was to me so apparent in me? Absolutely. I think the guilt was very strong in my life.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Did you have any moments where you were sort of falling away or like being a rebellious kid even though you believed? Did you have any moments of kind of rebellion?

Sam Pinson [00:12:14] I don't think so, no.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] I was pretty Peter Priesthood.

Sara Pinson [00:12:17] I was not sneaking out of the house to take cookies to people.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] Oh yeah, say that again.

Sam Pinson [00:12:23] Well, so I wasn't a perfect child or anything, but I did with. I had some friends where I would sneak out of the house without asking for permission. So I was breaking the rules. But what we did was, for example, we would go and deliver cookies or something to people to go out and do good stuff. Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] That's awesome.

Sam Pinson [00:12:49] I was not a rebellious.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] How was your mission?

Sam Pinson [00:12:53] Good. I served in the Russia Rostov Nadanu

John Dehlin [00:12:56] mission

Sam Pinson [00:13:00] when I was young. That wasn't an option.

Sara Pinson [00:13:02] Right.

Sam Pinson [00:13:02] The Cold War was still on. Missionaries were not allowed into the country. And I remember teachers asking, oh, you want to go on a mission, Right? Yes. Where do you want to go? And I always said, Russia. And when I had submitted my papers, we put a map up on the wall, and anybody who came over to the house invited them to put a pin in it where they thought I was going. And I guessed Moscow.

Olivia Pinson [00:13:27] Whoa.

Sam Pinson [00:13:28] Didn't get called to Moscow, but that was an additional. Like, it felt good. And confirming that I'm being blessed with the desires of my heart. Right. I wanted to serve the Lord. I wanted to serve in Russia, and here I'm being called to Russia. So I served, and as hard as I could. Two years. I gave it my. My best. I followed the rules. I was not a. I didn't slack off. I didn't break the rules. I love the Russian people. Certainly, there's hard times on the mission, as every missionary knows.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Do you get to be a DL or a ZL or an AP or any of that stuff?

Sam Pinson [00:14:06] Zone leader and mission secretary.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] Oh, nice. You were in the office.

Sam Pinson [00:14:10] I was.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:14:12] And answering the phone in Russian when you don't have the body language. Yeah. That was a challenge.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] So did you finish your mission with the full, intact testimony?

Sam Pinson [00:14:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Okay. And then take us to the point, just quickly, where you met Sarah.

How Sam and Sarah Met at BYU

Sam Pinson [00:14:31] So I returned from my mission, and that was in 2000, summer of 2000, and then started at BYU that fall, and we were in the same ward together. So that's where we met. That was. So that would have been in September, when the semester started. Around then.

Sara Pinson [00:14:52] August. September, yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:14:54] And our first date was in October.

John Dehlin [00:14:58] Were you in healing halls? Were you in the dorms?

Sara Pinson [00:15:00] No, I lived in the Glenwood, and he lived with his sister in Pleasant Grove. So, I mean, initially you went to, like, a singles ward there or just your sister's ward?

Sam Pinson [00:15:10] Yeah, it was the. Yeah. Not a super important detail, but you

Sara Pinson [00:15:14] just realized there were no young, single girls, and so that's why he ended up. He ended up in my ward kind of by chance and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] Okay, cool. So, Sarah, let's hear your story, too. Let's hear your Mormon story.

Sarah's Family Heritage and Early Faith

Sara Pinson [00:15:26] Okay. Well, on my mom's side of the family, We've got pioneer stock way back. You know, you get those emails from FamilySearch that are like, your ancestors birthday is today or whatever. I got an email saying that my ancestor was in the history of the church. And when I went to look at it, I think Sylvanus Hewlett or something like that. I guess his claim to fame is being chastened by or chastised by Joseph Smith. So that's.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] That's an honor. That's an honor.

Sara Pinson [00:15:59] That's my pioneer stock there. So that's my mom's side. And on my dad's side, he was a convert to the church. So I don't know if you want me to tell that story.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] I mean, just whatever would give us a sense for your upbringing.

Sara Pinson [00:16:14] Yeah, yeah. So my dad, he was working. I think he was at Yellowstone. He worked at Yellowstone quite a bit. He's from Montana and he was working. And there was a guy reading a marvelous work and a wonder.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] The Grand Richards.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:16:33] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:16:33] And it was distracting him from his work. And apparently my dad was tasked with go tell this guy to stop reading the book or take it from him or whatever. So my dad took the book from him and flipped through it and got interested and started reading it himself and found something special in it. And then a few months later, he picked up some hitchhikers who he knew. One of them he had known from the Congregational Church that he was a member of growing up. And he said, hey, I was. I recently became a Mormon. And so he said, well, send the missionaries to me. And he met the missionaries and they played golf together and eventually got baptized. And so he ended up going to BYU. So I think he was 18 when he joined the church. So went to BYU and met my mom. And. Yeah, so he was a convert. Always loved the church. I would say our family was traditional in that. We attended church every week. We had family scripture time. But I think my father was pretty nuanced. He read a lot of Hubie Brown, so. And he just read a lot. He was very well read. He would read books about Taoism, he would read physics, he would read any topic. He was very. Just interested in learning. So, yeah, traditional, but I would say nuanced and a lot more flexible than, for instance, Sam's family. When we married, I just noticed differences in how we. How we saw things.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] So did you already tell me what city you guys you were raised in?

Sara Pinson [00:18:19] So I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:18:22] And then we moved.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] What were you doing in Indiana? What were your parents doing in Indiana?

Sara Pinson [00:18:25] So my dad actually was a seminary teacher, like a CES for work. He. He did that in Utah, and then when we lived in Indiana, he worked with the institute programs.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] And so he's a CES employee?

Sara Pinson [00:18:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] For how many years?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:18:39] Forever.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:18:40] I mean, until he had to retire. He got cancer and had to retire, and he passed away in 2009.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Okay. So he was in Fort Wayne doing CES Institute. Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:18:52] Yep. And then we moved to Ammon, Idaho, when I was 10, so.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] And what was he? A seminary institute teacher.

Sara Pinson [00:19:00] And then he. He was a principal of a high school seminary. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Oh, wow.

Sara Pinson [00:19:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:19:06] Actually, the one that I. That my children now attend, so we're kind of back where we started.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] How big is Ammon, Idaho?

Sara Pinson [00:19:15] 60,000. Oh, is that Idaho Falls? I don't know what Ammon is.

Sam Pinson [00:19:19] Ammon's just an appendage to Idaho Falls. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:19:22] I'm not sure how it is.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] So what was your upbringing like? Was it super Mormon?

Sara Pinson [00:19:27] Yeah, it was super Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] How many siblings?

Sara Pinson [00:19:31] There's seven of us.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] Oh, my big families.

Sara Pinson [00:19:33] Eight of us. But one child passed away.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:19:36] So I grew up with seven. Yeah. I mean, we did all the things Mormons do. My dad loved the scriptures, and so our scripture time was very much. We would all take turns reading, but he would then elaborate on the scriptures or teach us because he was a seminary teacher. That's what he loved to do. So. Trying to think.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] So, like, scripture study, family home evening, family prayer, all that stuff.

Sara Pinson [00:20:06] Yeah. I don't remember a ton of family home evening. When was that? That became a thing, like in the 80s.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:20:12] Maybe you're not that old, so. Yeah. But I think that I'm towards the youngest, and so maybe my parents were just kind of, like, busy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] Most people, almost everybody is sure too busy.

Sara Pinson [00:20:22] And I think they had raised most of their kids.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] They were tired by the time you came around.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:20:29] They were just.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] They were wiped out.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:20:31] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:20:32] You get tired, so. Yeah, I don't remember 10 of that,

John Dehlin [00:20:35] but how was your, like, your testimony growing up?

Sara Pinson [00:20:38] My testimony was great. Yeah. I loved Primary. I loved young women.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] Do you have a favorite Primary song? I'd love to ask people that.

Sara Pinson [00:20:46] Yes. I. I don't know the title. Title. It's. I Like to look for rainbows.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] That one.

Sara Pinson [00:20:52] Just beautiful. When I Am Baptized, I think is what it's called. Yeah. Beautiful. So, yeah, I loved Primary, loved Young women's. I loved Girls Camp. That was like your jam. That was my jam. Totally. Just ate everything up at Girls Camp. And I was very much, I guess, a leader insofar that I tried to take people under my wing and try to, like, be inclusive with all the young women and just was always trying to look out for people who might not feel like they fit in. And so that was important to me.

Growing Up as Mormon Teenagers in Idaho

John Dehlin [00:21:35] Did you have dreams or goals as a teen Mormon? Teen girl?

Sara Pinson [00:21:40] I never wanted to be a mom. Like, I didn't think of it. I guess I wasn't that forward thinking. I didn't really have dreams and goals. I was just like, I'm kind of a take it a day at a time kind of person, I guess. I don't know. So I didn't really think too far ahead. But when I did apply for college, I only applied to byu. Like, I just knew that's where I wanted to go.

Sam Pinson [00:22:03] What about.

Sara Pinson [00:22:04] And I mean, they're like a joint application.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Oh, okay. So, yeah, I did the BYU's.

Sara Pinson [00:22:09] Yes, the BYU's. Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:22:13] So. And. And I would say that as a teenager, I was probably a little more orthodox than my parents. Like, I would take.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] But your dad was ces. How does that. Right.

Sara Pinson [00:22:23] But like I said, he was. He was pretty and I.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] Was he kind of liberal?

Sara Pinson [00:22:29] A little bit, yeah. And he would.

Sam Pinson [00:22:32] You're like, compared to me anyway.

Sara Pinson [00:22:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Okay, I want to hear this. So. So, like, how were you? Were you. How were you feeling? Like your parents were not quite as into it as you.

Sara Pinson [00:22:45] I. I guess what I mean is that I would take things seriously that I was taught in seminary or Sunday school, and when I was strict with myself, it wasn't because my parents taught me that way, I guess is what I mean. It's that it came from me, for instance, like, I went to a movie with friends. We went and saw the Titanic when it was. When it was big.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] That's edgy.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:23:16] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:23:17] And there was this nudity scene. I immediately felt, you know, this darkness and I should leave. And I thought it was a spirit telling me to leave. So I left and called my mom to come get me. And things started getting shaky with those friends after that. I think they thought I was a prude and I was. And so I guess things like that, where I was very, like, to the letter, I'm not gonna view that kind of stuff. I'm not gonna. And I don't know if they wanted to skip church while traveling or something. It bothered me. I would think, well, we're not supposed to do that, you know, and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] You were their little nephi.

Sara Pinson [00:23:59] Probably annoying. Yeah, I'm sure I was annoying.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] So were you both Nephites? Were you a Nephi too?

Sam Pinson [00:24:07] I don't think I ever had to like write my parents. They were believers, so I was following their lead. Their good lead.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Sara Pinson [00:24:21] And I do remember having a few moments of doubt. I had two of my best friends at the end of high school were not lds. One was Catholic and one was just non denominational Christian. Amazing girls, like, just wise beyond their years. Really compassionate, kind people. And they didn't have the gospel and they didn't seem to need it. They seemed fine without it.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Uh, oh, dangerous.

Sara Pinson [00:24:49] Yeah, that caused.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Super dangerous.

Sara Pinson [00:24:50] That caused a lot of cognitive dissonance for sure. And I remember thinking about it a lot and thinking, what does Mormonism have that makes it necessary, you know, if my friends can be really good without it and even better than me, I felt like, you know, they live their values even better than I do. What's so special about Mormonism? And I thought about that for months and I think that I eventually kind of resolved it in my head with thinking about like patriarchal blessing, the priesthood. You know, there's some things that are unique about Mormonism that I thought, well, I feel like my patriarchal blessing is really special to me and meaningful. So it must be true. You know, the whole thing must be true. And that kind of helped resolve it at that point.

John Dehlin [00:25:40] There's always the light of Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost thing, right? Well, and there's friends can have the light of Christ, but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Sara Pinson [00:25:47] And there's quotes from Hinckley like, everyone has good. We invite all good, you know, and so I'm sure there was some of that too.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] So there was a place for good people in the world who weren't Mormon. You just had to work hard to get there. Okay, so any other issues with your childhood before you kind of go to byu? Anything else you want to share about your upbringing or background?

Sara Pinson [00:26:17] I guess something else I did want to bring up is the whole missionary work thing. It always was. It was, it was hard for me. And I always thought it was because I was shy or I wasn't converted enough or I didn't love the gospel enough to want to share it. But like I mentioned, with these two friends that weren't LDs, I always, you know, there'd be a talk in church about missionary work and I'd feel that. Oh, and just guilt in my gut. I should be telling these friends about the gospel, but. But I never wanted to. It just didn't sit right with who I am. But again, I thought it was my problem. I thought it was me not being righteous enough. So I think I eventually did give them a Book of Mormon. But I, like, hated. I hated the entire experience. Just looking back now, I can see how wrong it felt. I didn't feel right doing it, but I felt like I was supposed to. That makes sense. I think that'll kind of be important later, the story.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] So anything else?

Sara Pinson [00:27:16] No, I think that's it.

John Dehlin [00:27:18] Anything else about your story, Sam, before we talk about your marriage, about your upbringing, any important aspects of your upbringing? You got the main things.

Sam Pinson [00:27:28] Well, I don't know if this is relevant for later, but there, I think, like anybody's childhood experience, there were some things about growing up that were unpleasant in my home, particularly maybe in a McConkie Mormon home where there was a very well developed sense of right and wrong. And being wrong or sinning or breaking the rules brought strict and severe punishment. And so I resented that. And simultaneously, perhaps that influenced my worldview that black and white, like, there's no gray. Things are right or they're wrong and never the twain shall meet.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Yeah, I can see where this is going to come in. Yeah. Okay, well.

Sara Pinson [00:28:23] And you had talked about, like, the church, you know, those happy commercials in the 80s and 90s, like, giving you hope that someday you could have a happy family in the gospel.

Sam Pinson [00:28:34] That was something that I liked about the church. It was all about having a happy family. And I looked forward to having my own happy family.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] Yeah. Okay. So you guys meet each other. Anything you want to say about your dating or courtship or.

Sam Pinson [00:28:51] It was awesome.

Olivia Pinson [00:28:52] It was awesome.

Sara Pinson [00:28:53] It was a lot of fun, I

Sam Pinson [00:28:57] think, in standard lds. Go on a mission, get married, have kids, style. We followed the plan. We met at the beginning of the semester. We had our first date at the end of October, and we were engaged in March of the next year.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Oh, that's slow.

Sam Pinson [00:29:17] And then married and then married in August.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] So you guys were slackers. You're basically slackers. I'm kidding. Sort of. Sort of.

Sam Pinson [00:29:25] So less than a year from first eyesight to married.

Sara Pinson [00:29:30] Yeah. And that was my first semester at BYU. I was 19 when we.

Sam Pinson [00:29:36] I couldn't let that go around.

Sara Pinson [00:29:37] Yeah, I was 19 when we got married. So that it's really young.

Sam Pinson [00:29:41] Right? We got married young quickly.

Sara Pinson [00:29:43] And I didn't plan on getting married at all, I think, because it was the norm and I very much didn't want to be the norm. My mom actually got me a bracelet that said Anti commitment or something like that. Like, as a joke. Like, I was like, I'm not gonna get married.

Sam Pinson [00:30:01] Not ever. But not in any.

Sara Pinson [00:30:03] Not in the first year. Like those silly girls that go to byu. But that's what I ended up being.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] But by the end of your freshman year, you were married.

Sara Pinson [00:30:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Okay. All right. And what was your understanding as a couple as to what. What role the church would play in your marriage and in your family?

Sam Pinson [00:30:24] You want to start?

Sara Pinson [00:30:25] I feel like I've been talking a lot. Go for it.

Sam Pinson [00:30:28] Our entire lives were centered around it and built on it. Every decision was informed by it. I don't think so. Sarah wasn't planning on getting married right away. She also wasn't planning on having children right away. And I didn't force that, but I certainly influenced it. And we started having children right away because the prophets taught that there are spirits waiting for physical bodies to come, and it's not our place. Like, it's a sin to deny them that opportunity. That's where I was at that time. And so we were both college students and starting our family in poverty, adding immense stress to our lives. Voluntarily unhealthy stress, I think, by having kids in college.

Sara Pinson [00:31:21] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:31:22] But the church was everything that was going to. Like, we're holding hands together and holding the iron rod, and that's going to be guiding our lives. That's the commitment that we had.

Sara Pinson [00:31:35] Yeah. And I think the children thing was, like, our first clash, or the first moment where I realized he has more of a strict idea of what it means to be a Mormon, I guess, because I wasn't planning on having children right away. But then he would read me these quotes about, you're not supposed to put off having children, even for schooling. And I was like, I can't argue with the church. Like, you know, I want to do what's right. I want to follow the church. And so we did start our family. And, yeah, he didn't force me, but there was definitely influence with the backing of the church.

Sam Pinson [00:32:13] And when God's the one telling you to do something, it's hard to.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] So you're pregnant how many months into your marriage?

Sam Pinson [00:32:22] Second month.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] What?

Sara Pinson [00:32:24] Probably because we got married in August. Olivia was born in June.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:32:29] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:32:30] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:32:30] It was pretty immediate.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Okay.

Olivia Pinson [00:32:33] All right.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] That's pretty intense.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:32:34] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:32:35] And we love parenthood. We love our children.

Olivia Pinson [00:32:38] Yep.

Sara Pinson [00:32:39] Absolutely.

Sam Pinson [00:32:39] But that decision was not made independent of the influence of the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] So how many kids do you have?

Sam Pinson [00:32:48] Five.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Five kids. What was your understanding about kind of patriarchy and decision making and Power in the relationship. And was that at all a struggle or an issue early on or ever?

Sara Pinson [00:33:05] Yeah, I think that. I mean, what I just described became a pat right of us maybe disagreeing on something, but he would always have the church on his side. And so it wasn't that I felt like I had to give in because he was a man, but it was that all the white men in the church were agreeing with him. And so he was always right when it came to those decisions, you know, the times when my desire or opinion disagreed with the church. So, yeah, I think that that was a running theme in our marriage, for sure. I know that up until recently, I had a lot of internalized sexism, and I thought it was just the way it was supposed to be and that it was right.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] And as you progressed in the marriage, did that weigh on you? Did you just come to accept it and feel okay about it? Was it an ongoing burden or problem? Did you have depression over that sort of stuff?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:34:05] No.

Sara Pinson [00:34:06] I mean, Sam's, like, awesome. From the beginning, it's very much been a partnership. We had children in college, and it was very much trading off. He was very supportive of me finishing my degree. A lot of things were great, but it was just every once in a while making a decision when I felt like I had to give in because he had the church on his side. So it didn't really weigh heavy. I will say the. The temple weighed heavy. The. The temple covenants that I.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] When you went through the temple, do you want to talk about what that was like for you?

Sara Pinson [00:34:42] Yeah, I totally forgot about that. So the first time I went through, we were getting married the next day, so that was kind of lost in the marriage. Right. But I. And so I don't remember if the first time that bothered me, but I know from the beginning it bothered me, you know, when the covenant was to hearken to my husband, but he got to hearken to God. I didn't understand.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] So that you paid. You noticed that?

Sara Pinson [00:35:12] I noticed. Oh, absolutely, I noticed it. And I think I've always been pretty independent. I don't know. I never would have called myself a feminist, but I. I had, like, five brothers growing up. I could beat the boys in races when I was a kid. Like, I thought girls can do just as good as boys in anything, you know, that was kind of always how I felt. And so I was like, what? I have to hearken to him, and he's a great guy, but he's not. I have a relationship with God. Why don't I Get to just hearken to him. I have that personal relationship. It didn't make any sense to me, but I thought, you know, we're told just keep going. We'll understand it someday. So I very much put it aside and thought, I'll just keep going back to the temple. And every time I would. I would just puzzle it out and think, try to figure out why, how this could make sense. But it never did. You know, we're taught Adam's not punished, but it felt like Eve was punished for being the first one to partake. And I didn't understand that. So that always bothered me. And I remember once I brought it up to Sam, I said, I don't like this part.

Sam Pinson [00:36:26] I remember that.

Sara Pinson [00:36:27] Yeah. And he actually started crying. Do you want to tell your side of that story?

Sam Pinson [00:36:35] Well, just in general leading up to that. So I had been taught the Father presides not as a dictator, but when it comes down to it, as a dictator. When it comes down to if there's any disagreement. That's kind of what I had expected. You want to be kind and loving and serving and everything. But I think the church's teachings did negatively impact my worldview of what a healthy relationship looked like. And I had been going to the temple as a missionary right before we got married. And I think part of me looked forward to having a wife that would covenant. Like, that's the beginning of our godhood together. Right. And then when she told me she didn't like that, apart from it personally hurting, like, you don't want to hearken to me. Like, there's something flawed about me. It was also, my wife's not a believer fully. She's not fully devoted to the church. And so that was troubling.

Sara Pinson [00:37:49] Yeah. And I tend to be bluntly honest sometimes. And so I don't know that I was able to express my internal turmoil. I just said, I don't want to hearken to you, you know, which. Oh, that's tactful. So I can see why maybe his feelings were hurt. And. But, yeah, so basically I share that feeling that I've had for a while. And he starts crying. I'm never gonna bring up anything like that again. Right.

Sam Pinson [00:38:20] Problem solved.

Sara Pinson [00:38:23] So, yeah, that kind of shut me down in that way, like, don't bring up things that I don't agree with or.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Yeah. Okay, so how. So what do you want to tell us about kind of your, you know, marriage slash career leading up to the point where you guys started having. One of you started having doubts? I know that you eventually became bishop. So just talk us through kind of anything you want to, leading up to the point where someone starts having doubts and. Or, you know, you kind of. You're living. You must have been living the Mormon dream in appearances, because being chosen as a bishop is kind of on level one, the epitome of the young Mormon experience. And I'm assuming you were a bishop pretty young. So talk about the ascent to high status in the church.

All Is Well: Deep Commitment to the Church

Sam Pinson [00:39:21] So I was all in. I was very dedicated and I actually. So we. I return from my mission 21, we get married at 23, I'm ordained a high priest and put into a high priest group leadership. So right off the bat, I'm being tapped pretty young, and I gave it everything I had. Sarah. Well, you maybe want to tell it. She was called to be young Women's president when we've got a baby in our family ward. She had leadership positions right off the bat.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:40:00] And

Sam Pinson [00:40:03] the Ascend. So we finished our. We finished our degrees. I was studying computer science and graduated. And maybe this will be relevant later. I actually was admitted to BYU as a linguistics major, and I've always had a passion for language.

Sara Pinson [00:40:24] And that was before your mission?

Sam Pinson [00:40:26] That was actually.

Sara Pinson [00:40:27] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:40:27] I was admitted before my mission as a linguistics major. When I actually started, I changed to computer science. I graduated with my bachelor's. She wasn't done with her bachelor's yet. I started a master's. We both finished in computer science.

John Dehlin [00:40:44] Computer science at BYU.

Sam Pinson [00:40:45] BYU program.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:40:47] And then got a job at Microsoft.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] What year did you leave BYU?

Sam Pinson [00:40:53] 2005.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] Okay. Just because I like to think about timelines. 2005. 2004 is when I left Microsoft and 2005 is when I moved. Started Morm Stories. So you're going to Microsoft at about the time I left Microsoft and started Mormon Stories. So I'm curious as you're telling the story, I just want to hear if any of the stuff we started doing with blogs and with podcasts, eventually the CES letter and other things. I want to hear when those. When or if. Because some people live so much in the Mormon bubble, they just don't know about any of this stuff for forever.

Sam Pinson [00:41:27] That was. But that was me.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] Okay. Okay. Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:41:31] So I took that bubble with me everywhere I went.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] So you moved to Seattle. What part? That's a big deal to get at Microsoft, Right? Although it was great. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:41:40] Life was.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] What group did you join?

Sam Pinson [00:41:42] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] What group?

Sam Pinson [00:41:43] I was part of a team that did like five Photo. The Photo Apps. Movie maker. When that was A thing,

Sara Pinson [00:41:54] a blogging thing.

Sam Pinson [00:41:55] Windows Live writer.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Okay. So where'd you live?

Sam Pinson [00:42:02] In Sultan, which is a little town on.

Sara Pinson [00:42:06] Do you know where Monroe is?

Sam Pinson [00:42:08] Up Snohomish County?

John Dehlin [00:42:09] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:42:11] On your way to.

Sara Pinson [00:42:11] It's really gorgeous up there. Great people. I love the people of Sultan.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] A lot of Mormons were there. A lot of Microsoft employees.

Sam Pinson [00:42:20] I feel like for the population, relatively speaking, there were a lot. The ward was.

Sara Pinson [00:42:26] Well, our ward was like Gold Bar Sultan. It was a massive geographic. Not massive like 40 minute drive geographic.

Sam Pinson [00:42:35] There were quite a few in our immediate neighborhood.

Sara Pinson [00:42:38] Yeah, there were actually. There were like six families probably. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] I mean Microsoft is an extremely demanding company.

Sam Pinson [00:42:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Tons of hours, tons of commitment. The commuting is awful, so the traffic is terrible. So it's a non trivial thing to be a Mormon young family trying to succeed at Microsoft. True.

Sam Pinson [00:43:06] I'm glad you said that. I very much felt that way. So I had been taught my whole life that the church comes first, above everything. And I tried to live that. And so I felt at a disadvantage at Microsoft. The commute was terrible. I was called to be an early morning seminary teacher.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] So was I.

Sam Pinson [00:43:29] And we were still having babies. That interrupted my sleep. I really think that I suffered brain damage from the sleep deprivation. I think it affected my ability to hold my train of thought and to think cognitively. Which does not help when you're working at Microsoft.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:43:50] Right.

Sam Pinson [00:43:54] That added a lot of stress. I did not enjoy working at Microsoft. Overall. There were good parts about it, but overall I did not enjoy my experience.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] They had this. For anyone who cares about history, they had this review process where you get a 3 or 3.5 or a 4. But the managers had to stack rank anyone who worked for them. And if you found that bottom quartile with the threes, you'd get no stock options, no bonuses, no raises. At least it was that way when I was there. So you were in a team environment, but at the same time the stars got heavily rewarded and the slackers or the people that were perceived or were not as political to be perceived as performing got nothing. And so it was kind of like you have to work in teams, but it's total dog eat do. And it was just a really cutthroat culture that made it even more stressful.

Sam Pinson [00:44:44] Couldn't have said it better. That's what I observed as well.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:44:50] And it was really stressful for me at home because he had early morning seminary and then he would just come home to change and then drive that hour to work because we were about an hour from Redmond and then. And then they expect a lot. And so maybe 10 hour days and then another hour home. And I had young children. And yeah. If there ever was any depression for me or just resentment for. And then the church is gonna take more time. And I never see my husband. And that it would have been during that time for sure.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Margi had depression, too. Yeah, we had a lot of fights. It was really hard.

Sara Pinson [00:45:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Yep.

Sam Pinson [00:45:29] Yeah. Yep. And so actually that's coming. Yeah, that's coming. So

John Dehlin [00:45:37] good.

Sam Pinson [00:45:37] So I felt like I was guided by the spirit in my decisions, and the upward trajectory of my life confirmed all of that. I'm prospering. I'm doing the right thing. I felt like I should run for office. Local office. I ran for city council and was elected.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Oh, on top of all this.

Sam Pinson [00:46:00] Yes.

Sara Pinson [00:46:01] He was a high councilor at that time, too. Driving 40 minutes to the Stake center for meetings in our steakhouse.

John Dehlin [00:46:09] What the.

Sam Pinson [00:46:10] It was not healthy.

Sara Pinson [00:46:11] That's when I really got angry.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:46:13] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:46:14] So. And talking about like that makes no sense.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] Literally no sense.

Sara Pinson [00:46:20] He's an overachiever.

Sam Pinson [00:46:21] God works in mysterious ways.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:46:24] I felt like I was called to do it. And I think that what had been modeled for me was a good, strong, valiant Mormon man goes out and gets things done, and his wife enables that, allows that to happen.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:46:41] And Olivia's crying.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Okay, wait, Olivia, what's your reaction? I want to hear it.

Olivia Pinson [00:46:48] It's just funny hearing these things because it's like. Well, it's not just problems with the Mormon Church, it's also problems with society. And I'll talk about my story later.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] But your reaction is what? Did you hear your parents talk about this stupid. What. What's st.

Olivia Pinson [00:47:03] This idea that your wife should enable you to go and achieve things because you're supposed to be this macho man.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] You're not loving that.

Olivia Pinson [00:47:11] Not loving it.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Do you have anything to add, Sam Jr. Did you hear your parents talk about all this?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:47:21] There's many things to think about. Certainly. I actually didn't know the entirety of the story. I guess, if anything, my reaction is definitely changing, or not changing, but building my perception of what future partnerships all have are going to be like. This is definitely informing my future, to put it mildly.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Okay. All right, fun. Well, your kids are hearing some of this for the first time.

Sara Pinson [00:47:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Yeah. Okay. So you're running for office on top of everything.

Sam Pinson [00:47:52] Yeah. So life was out of control and you're depressed.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] Possibly. Or at least some signs of depression.

Sara Pinson [00:47:57] Yeah. I don't think I felt like it at the time, but. And I. I homeschooled the kids for a good chunk of time. We're both over a T. But I actually, I think that actually saved me because if I had just been home without, like, a purpose and a calling and meaning, something I can do every day to have meaning in my life, I. I think I would have wanted to get a job. I think I would have been struggling even more. So I loved homeschooling the kids, and I think that gave me purpose. But it also burns you out. It's pretty intense to be with your kids day in and day out and to be in charge of their curriculum and their learning and then not have your husband be around. So.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:48:39] Yeah. And yeah, if I may interject, something that I have actually been thinking of recently is I think probably in part because you, mom were, you know, homeschooling us. And I'm sure even as a child, you can sense some tension between parents sometimes.

Sara Pinson [00:48:57] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:48:59] I developed a very strong parental feeling of gratitude or a feeling of gratitude towards you guys as my parents. And I think that that actually might have helped. Obviously, this will be. We'll get to this later, I guess. But it did shape me into, I think, a miniature copy of what you described as your childhood in slightly different ways.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] That's important. Thanks for sharing, Sam Jr.

Sam Pinson [00:49:25] Okay, so as I said, I wasn't happy at Microsoft and I quit.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] How many years?

Sam Pinson [00:49:33] Five years? A little over five years.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] When you vested, did you get stock options?

Sam Pinson [00:49:37] I got some stuff, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] Five years is your vesting.

Sam Pinson [00:49:40] Gave a bunch too, but it felt like the right thing to do. And it felt like God was leading you, leading me yet again. And it was shortly after that that I was called to the High council. So I took that as also continued confirmation. I'm on the right path. And I quit Microsoft to start my own translation business. So now I translate from Russian to English, which was really a leap of faith, I think.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] I stopped as a software developer altogether.

Sam Pinson [00:50:14] Software development.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:50:15] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] That's a big change.

Sam Pinson [00:50:16] Yes. I just had such a bad taste in my mouth. I was ready for a big change. And I have always loved language, so I thought, give that a try anyway, that starting any business is extremely stressful. Most businesses fail. And so you take that with

Sara Pinson [00:50:39] church,

Sam Pinson [00:50:39] the church responsibilities and the city council. And we were stretched. The weight was too much. And we started having marriage problems like never before. There had been disagreements about this or that, but it was real marriage problems now.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] So how many years into the marriage was that about 10, 10 years in?

Sara Pinson [00:51:02] Kind of typical, I think, actually.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] Sure, sure. So just fighting?

Sam Pinson [00:51:07] Well, I think different expectations. As I said. I felt like God was telling me to be on the city council and to do all of these things. And Sarah wasn't happy with that arrangement. She wanted more time, more support.

Sara Pinson [00:51:23] Yeah, for sure. And when he started the business, he would go down to an office that we'd prepared for him and be down there 10 or 12 hours. I think he, you know, you feel prompted to do something that God tells you to do, but then you got to put in 110. Right. Like, there's that idea that. But I have to put in the work to make God's promises come true to fruition. And so he would be down there for 10 or 12 hours, and I was. And. But we weren't making any money yet. He would be studying for the translator certification, or he would be trying to build up clients. And so, yeah, it felt like better because he was home, but worse because he was home, and yet I still didn't see him as much.

Sam Pinson [00:52:10] Yeah, serious financial stress. I actually pulled out half of a 401k.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:52:15] Holy.

Sam Pinson [00:52:16] I pulled out half of my 401k in order to have some liquid funds to see us through the transition. And every month, the balance, our account was getting lower and lower. So extreme stress on both of us and young children. Like, it was the perfect storm.

Sara Pinson [00:52:37] And I think we were both very much in our own head of our own stress. I wasn't getting support with raising the kids. He was extremely stressed trying to start this business, and I wasn't very understanding of that. So.

Sam Pinson [00:52:52] So I still. In this time, I believe the church was true, but I think just the emotional exhaustion, the weight of it all began to. I was feeling worn out. I was not as zealous about what I had been zealous about before. I still did everything I was supposed to do, but I was less excited about it. I felt like I'm sacrificing to go home teaching. My wife resents the fact that I'm already gone all the time. And then the church. I don't think she resented the church for it, but that's how I received. Like, you're not supporting me in doing my home teaching. And so I felt this conflict between what I wanted to do and. Which was all out. I'm in the church 100%, and it's not working for me. It's harming my relationship. It's harming my family. That was the first time, I think I began to have any kind of feeling like that.

Sara Pinson [00:54:00] Yeah. And I remember a talk in church in that ward where the leader said, you know, the men, they want to go and be the hero. Like, women, let your husband be the hero. Like, let him go do his home teaching. Let him go to his meetings and be the hero. And so that message was being reinforced to me. I need to be a better wife. I need to be more supportive. I need to not resent this. I need to, you know, give my life. Like, we're taught the church.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] So it seems like you're kind of packing it down. Like, you're just sort of like. It seems like year after year of, like, I'm not getting what I want. I'm not having a voice. But the church continually keeps coming in and saying, pack it down and support your husband and kind of be quiet and do your job.

Sara Pinson [00:54:51] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:54:53] Oh, yeah. And I'm still processing through, to some degree, finding that my voice matters, my emotions are valid, that kind of thing. It's definitely been a process for me.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Okay, so how does this.

Sam Pinson [00:55:07] So it eventually got better. I think the financial stress was a huge part of it. And I eventually built the business up and we started making money. And when there wasn't, like, that financial gun to the head, it allowed our relationship to begin healing, I think.

Sara Pinson [00:55:28] Yeah, well, that. And I remember one night I went to take dinner to a family, which, looking back, I'm like, dude, girl, you didn't need to do that when you were struggling so much to be doing that. But anyway, I was taking dinner to a family, and I just broke down sobbing in the car. I didn't want to go home. I think it was probably the first time in my life I didn't want to be at my house. And I was just praying, and I said, heavenly Father, you have to do something. You have to send somebody to me, because I can't. It was the first time I thought about divorce, and that was just not an option with how I was raised and being in the church. And so I was like, you gotta send somebody to me. And I had this warm feeling come

Olivia Pinson [00:56:22] over me and

Sara Pinson [00:56:26] just was told, go home. It's gonna be okay. And I went home. And then, like, not 10 minutes later, there was a knock on our door. And it was somebody from our ward who is like, he's a little rough around the edges kind of guy. Very, like, missionary obsessed, zealous. And he's the one who showed up. And I was like, seriously, like, heavenly Father, this is who you sent to me, this guy. But he came in and he actually, like, was talking about marriage, and he shared a few things that. I don't know. They just gave me enough hope to keep going. And that, to me, was a turning point of, I'm just gonna stick it out and keep trying. And, yeah,

Sam Pinson [00:57:19] things got better. It took a couple years. So in 2013, We moved to Washington to work for Microsoft. I wasn't working for Microsoft anymore. And so it's expensive to live there. Expensive.

Sara Pinson [00:57:39] And it's gray skies, rains all the time.

Sam Pinson [00:57:43] So I didn't want to do that anymore. So we considered moving. We started planning for that. And Sarah's got family here in Idaho Falls, so. Or not here, but in Idaho Falls. And so that's where we ended up.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] You moved.

Sam Pinson [00:58:00] So we moved.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:58:01] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:58:01] Sold the house and moved. And so now we're. Summer 2013. And I. That whole. That episode there in Washington was a very dark period, a low point in my life. That upward Mormon trajectory had stalled out and then reversed. This was not part of my plan. This wasn't supposed to happen. As I said, some of that zeal was gone. But when we moved, I wanted to take that as a. Okay, reset. I'm gonna do my best to recommit to everything. And I did. In our new ward, I went out of my way to introduce myself and to be my best church member self.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] This is kind of homeboy. And homegirl returns home. Right. You're returning to Ammon, right?

Sara Pinson [00:58:58] Well, I am.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Okay, okay. You're returning to Ammon. So you're going back to where you were from.

Sam Pinson [00:59:03] Southern California.

John Dehlin [00:59:03] You were still Southern California. Okay. Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:59:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] So you're returning to her home.

Sara Pinson [00:59:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Triumphantly triumphant.

Sara Pinson [00:59:10] I don't know if triumphant with our tail between our screaming, maybe. I actually didn't ever plan to move back to my hometown, but we felt

Sam Pinson [00:59:20] we were being guided. Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:59:21] Well.

Sam Pinson [00:59:21] And my mom made it a matter of.

Sara Pinson [00:59:23] My mom at the time was taking care of her parents, and she had already taken care of my dad for. Until he passed. And then her parents moved in with her, and it just, you know, felt right to be there, be close. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] And it's cheaper.

Sara Pinson [00:59:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] Cheaper than Seattle.

Sam Pinson [00:59:42] Yes, that is true. The housing market. We lost a lot of money selling the house because it was a dirty. We bought high, we sold low.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:59:53] Oh, no.

Sam Pinson [00:59:53] So, yeah, cheaper, but we lost a lot of money. My net worth is much lower now than it would be if we had stayed even a little longer, Whatever. But. So I got called to be young men's President very shortly after moving in. And then three months later, we get a call to come meet with the stake president. I had just received a calling. I thought, surely this is a calling for Sarah. We go in to meet with him and he asked me to be the bishop of the M26 board. It was like an out of body experience, like tunnel vision. And then I'm watching this happen from the outside.

Sara Pinson [01:00:36] Yeah, you were shocked.

Sam Pinson [01:00:37] Totally not expecting that.

Sara Pinson [01:00:38] He, like, cackled, like, he laughed kind of maniacally.

Sam Pinson [01:00:42] And I was like, is this a joke? Like, are you serious? Growing up, I thought and was taught, you're the future leaders of the church. Yes, you are going to bear up the kingdom triumphantly, and you shouldn't want a calling, but you are going to do that. And so I tried to have that ambitious, humble ambition as much as possible. And I think when I was a teenager, there was a part of me that wanted to be bishop or at least thought it would be cool.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Yeah. Like every other Mormon boy.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:01:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:01:21] At the moment when the call came, that was the last, really. I did not want to be bishop. No. And in fact, like I said, I told you, I started to lose my zeal. I just wasn't as excited as my peak Mormon self. But my sense of duty, all of that conditioning kicked in and I. Aye, sir. I accepted the call and I recommitted. I gave it everything I had. And so bishop service began.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] And Olivia, that can. A wife can. Can maybe experience that two different ways or multiple ways, but one would be like, oh, this is validation that we're on the right track and that we're doing Mormonism right. And the Lord wouldn't call my husband to such a special calling if we weren't all doing good things. Or it can cause a lot of stress and sadness. Like, you know, we don't have time for this. It's young kids. The marriage isn't great. Like, how is it for you?

Sara Pinson [01:02:17] I think there was some of both.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:02:19] We.

Sara Pinson [01:02:20] So we purchased an acre and we were looking forward to getting chickens and having a garden. And it's a lot of work to take care of an acre. And it was a wilderness when we bought it, so it was going to be a lot of work and money. And so I was a little like, oh, well, there go those plans. You know, any extra time we might spend on that is going to be as him, as a bishop now. But generally I was excited for him. We were in a good place in our marriage at that point. And I could sense that he was losing his zeal. And so I remember thinking, this is going to be a great opportunity of growth for him. It's going to be really good for him. And I kind of committed to. I'm not going to be resentful. I'm going to support him 100%. I'm not going to complain. And I think I was actually in a healthy enough place where I could do that. And I think I did do that while you were bishop.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:03:16] Absolutely.

Sara Pinson [01:03:16] I didn't resent it like I did previously, and maybe it was because the kids were getting older and things were

Sam Pinson [01:03:23] a little easier too, but yeah, she was fantastically supportive.

John Dehlin [01:03:30] Okay. And so you did the, you did the bishop thing. Let me just check in with the kids really quick. So, kids, a move from Washington to, to Idaho is a big switch. And then having your dad call his bishop. Anything you guys want to share about either of those things?

Olivia Pinson [01:03:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] Or were you too young to notice?

Olivia Pinson [01:03:50] Oh, no. Well, I was 11, I think. Yeah, I turned 11 right after we moved to Idaho. And just in terms of the church and you know, being 11, 12, that's when you start to have all this pressure put on you to like, get, get a testimony. And you start to feel like you need to fit in with, you know, the youth around you. And I think our ward in Washington, it was a lot of converts and it was a lot of people with very diverse experiences and ideas. And when I moved here, I definitely felt a shift in how the church felt. It was just a different culture. It felt more homogenous, more close minded. And so I think that definitely affected me. I started to feel a pressure to fit in and to, you know, I mean, it started to be that my community was solely centered around the church because, like, all my friends were part of the church. And so that definitely.

John Dehlin [01:04:49] And you liked that or didn't like that?

Sam Pinson [01:04:51] Both.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] Mixed.

Olivia Pinson [01:04:52] Yeah, it was okay for a little bit. But I know I really started to struggle because my story is really interesting because unlike my parents, who didn't really have any doubts, I started to ask questions when I was probably 12, when I was Indian woman's. And I would have these lessons about the temple or about these things, and I had so many questions. And I also had access to the Internet a little bit more than my parents did, I think. And so I found things out about the church that I was like what?

John Dehlin [01:05:21] Like what?

Olivia Pinson [01:05:23] Some of it was historical stuff, like just about Joseph Smith marrying young girls that I was like, as a kid, you don't really know how to Conceptualize that. But, you know, a voice in my head is like, what? Like, we're never taught about stuff like this.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] So you're having these thoughts as a 12 year old?

Olivia Pinson [01:05:38] Yeah, I'd say. Well, I'd say I started to feel uncomfortable some things when I was 12, but it wasn't until I was probably 13, 14 that I really found out more. But yeah, when I was 12, I think it was more just this sense of I didn't like church, I stopped liking church. And When I was 13, I started to get really depressed because I had a lot of. I think I was a little bit like Sam in that I felt like. Like I had to be perfect. And I felt like I was never living up to these standards all around me. And I felt like I couldn't ask questions. I had. And so that started very, very early on. And I think moving to Idaho definitely affected that.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] Okay, Sam, you want to jump into.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:06:23] Totally. Well, like every good, faithful Mormon boy, I was in awe of my dad, first of all, just as a son, I think. But definitely once he was made bishop, I think that there was definitely. That was definitely when my religious development started, sort of around 11 and 12. Again, especially with the influence of dad being bishop in particular. I think there was that culture shift that Olivia mentioned with, you know, it going from converts mostly and kind of transitioning to homogenized sort of Mormonism. There was most decidedly, for me personally, there was a huge shift in the. I don't know if there's. This is the right way of putting it, but there was a much lower level of zealousness and excitement and, you know, commitment, not just throughout the ward itself, but especially throughout my peer groups. Right. And so when you're 12 and you're like, you're gonna get the lane out of hands or, you know, you'll be given the priesthood, you're basically given the power of God in some small way, like, holy crap, that blew my mind. And so, you know, I'd be. I would be all in, like dad and Mom. And then I would look around me and I'd see the other guys and girls my age, but especially the guys, you know, who just didn't really care, who were, like, they believed it and they were converted to it. But at the end of the day, they weren't the ones doing fast offerings or doing all the different things that came with being a young man or having the priesthood. And so right off the bat, starting around, you know, when I first got the Aaronic priesthood, I think that there was sort of that divergence that continued where I, as a dedicated. The bishop's son, right, the person in that sort of unique situation found myself being more and more involved and passionate about the church while everyone around me in the ward, especially my peers, really just, you know, it became more clear how much less committed they were than me. And you know, at the time, it's sort of the humble ambition that you brought up. Like, okay, you know, we have to be sanctimoniously humble about our own situation. But at the same time I was like, yeah, like people are telling me I could be the bishop someday. And you know, there is that part of your brain that's like, I want to serve the Lord. I also want to be the best person I can be. So that was absolutely part of it.

John Dehlin [01:09:03] So Sam Jr. If I'm understanding, I can kind of relate to this. I remember growing up in Texas as a Mormon, but moving to Utah, thinking that, you know, the Utah Mormons were going to be doing Mormonism the best way. But what I found was a lot of people, because a lot of Utah Mormons or Idaho Mormons because they were growing up in it, it was just like the water they were swimming in and they didn't take it as seriously. They weren't quite as devout and there might have even been kids partying just secretly and privately just not taking it all super seriously. Is that kind of how you found it to be?

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:09:38] Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think again, I had any particular expectations in place to be disappointed. But one thing that certainly played into that was again when I was had just turned 12 and I think I talked to both of you guys about this. There were quite a few things happening, including scrupulosity, which I'm sure we'll get to. But it was basically me as a 12 year old who was, you know, barely a newly ordained deacon and a bunch of 15, 16 year olds. And what I quickly realized was that young men's was more about playing basketball, right, or church ball, when that was a thing, than actually caring at all about the church, really within that ward at least. And in particular, I definitely wasn't athletic as a 12 year old. I like to think that's changed somewhat. That's up for debate, I guess. But one thing that I definitely felt like was not only was it like no one else, no other young men really care about the church, at least not in the same way I do. It was also kind of exclusionary because they were all super into basketball and good at it overall. And there was 12 year old Sam tripping over his own feet, you know, probably with a Book of Mormon in his hands. So there were definitely many factors involved, but sort of my general feeling around 12 was definitely. Yeah, you know, I, for whatever reason, am the only one who cares about this.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] The church meaning the church.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:11:07] The church meaning, you know, the church and particularly all the activities and responsibilities that come with like the priesthood. Right. And I mean, just think about like what that means or to me it meant holy crap, I've been given a small piece of the power of God, you know, like, because I truly believed it. Right. I believe that this is the pathway to eternal happiness. All these things like this is it, like this is the way to live your life. Very simple, you know, makes sense. You guys raised me well.

John Dehlin [01:11:36] Like father, like son. Like grandfather, like father, like son.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:11:40] Exactly. And so, yeah, I could not understand why you would have apathy towards the great, the one true religion, God's true church. And another thing that was hugely important at this time for me was I started under the tutelage, I suppose of both of you, dad in particular, to explore ideas, philosophy and politics and other things. And while I don't think I was some expert on religion, obviously I. I definitely started to interact with ideas that while they didn't cause me to doubt anything, allowed ideas to exist in my mind that I think would end up facilitating leaving the church and seeing the problems and the limitations with what was included in that.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] Okay, all right, well that's super. I love getting the kids point of view along with the parents. And so I also think it's interesting that Olivia's sort of questioning and not feeling great about things while Sam Jr is feeling extra hyper religious. That's an interesting dynamic between the siblings too.

Olivia Pinson [01:12:57] Yeah, well, to be fair, like there was definitely a point of time, like right after moving to Idaho where I think I was very much like, I found purpose in being super strict to all the rules and having a testimony and stuff. But I think it was maybe because I started to feel like just a failure all the time and like I didn't fit in that I started to like. And then I stumbled, you know, across things on the Internet and I started to just be like, hold on, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] Yeah, yeah, okay.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:13:28] Yeah, sorry. Yeah, well. And you used to the word hyper religious. And I think that's the perfect way to describe it. I mean I was, I was deacon's quorum president and then I was teachers quorum president. And I am sure I would have been, you know, Pre scorn president or on through the levels. Right. Because of my sort of like I'm the only guy who's like really all in in the ward. And so as deacons quorum president, you know, because I bought into it. I was taught, you know, like the deacons of the ward that came in after me gradually, like I am the steward and the caretaker and there's all these crucial responsibilities and you know, scriptures tell us what deacons responsibilities are. And so I would spend hours like legitimately as a 12 and 13 year old kid, I would spend hours praying and reading scriptures and like pleading to the God I had been told about to let me feel love for the deacons and all these things. And as you can imagine, I'm feeling like an overwhelming sense of love as a 12 or 13 year old for kids that you really don't know that well, which was brought about by hours of intense attempts to feel that or have that experience that was hugely impactful in terms of my perceptions of the reality of personal revelation and all these things. And you know, only increased how zealous I was about the gospel and my callings within it. Especially I remember I won't mention any names, but there was a deacon at the time, he's not part of the ward anymore. But when I was deacons quorum president he moved in and his family struggled with the church, they were pretty inactive. And I just remember praying at night at some point about like how I could reach out to this kid. Right. And I had one of the most powerful spiritual experiences definitely that I had had up until that point right where I really did feel in a completely undeniable way like this great love, like this totally unconditional love for this kid. And I think that, you know, all in all that was a great thing and that totally inspired me. It was also true that I spent hours and hours of my life trying to, you know, create those feelings and to encourage them.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] Love it. Okay, so you guys, can I just add to that? Yeah, please.

Sara Pinson [01:16:00] Just thinking about the kids perspective moving to Idaho, I think I mentioned earlier I wasn't super thrilled about coming back to Idaho. And it was for that reason because I spent my childhood in Indiana, I guess what you would call the mission field. And when we moved to Idaho, Even as a 10 year old, I sensed that difference of I guess when you're in the minority, like in Indiana, the youth kind of have to be the examples and stand out and the ward family becomes very much a family. And when I moved to Idaho, I remember feeling like, yeah, a lot of kids my age don't care or it doesn't feel as cohesive of a ward because everyone has their family or everyone has. Or they're just not that into the church or whatever it might have been. So, yeah, I guess I'm feeling a little sad hearing them say that because I experienced those same emotions and was kind of why I was not thrilled about coming back to Idaho. But in Idaho, it was great. I hope we're not dissing on it and good people.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] I was born in Idaho. My mom was born and raised in Idaho, so.

Sara Pinson [01:17:16] Oh yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [01:17:17] I have a lot of Idaho love.

Sara Pinson [01:17:18] Yeah, it is a great place. I hope we're not being too tuned down on it.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] I bet it's fun for you guys to hear your kids also tell their perspectives.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:17:48] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy when you're though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo Hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have it tells oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey's through Happy day All is well we then are free from toil and sorrow with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared Again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus well. All is well well all is well all is well all is well all

Sam Pinson [01:21:44] is well

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:21:48] oh, all is well. All is ra.

Early Cracks in Faith and Church Policies

Part 2 of 7 · Ep. 1322

Guest [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] So how take us up to the point where the cracks started happening? You know, so let's go up to that point.

Sam Pinson [00:00:43] So I need to backtrack just slightly. When the Prop 8 stuff was going on.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Oh, you were.

Sam Pinson [00:00:53] So I.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] You were in Washington.

Sam Pinson [00:00:55] Yes, I was in Washington. And I. I don't know if I was on the city council at the time, but I was very much like, politically, I use the word radicalized now. I didn't think of myself as radicalized at the time, but always very politically conservative. I felt that politically conservative positions were consistent with gospel teachings and adopted a lot of libertarian positions at the time. And so, on the one hand, I don't want the government in people's lives any more than necessary, and then we have the government telling gay couples that they can't get married. So there was a little conflict between what I personally felt felt was correct and what the church is pushing and teaching. That didn't cause me to think the church isn't true or to doubt anything. But that was a. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] You're like, why is the church involved in this?

Sam Pinson [00:02:05] I think that was part of losing the zeal, too. Right? It was. It's not something that I really can get behind. Like, I don't understand. So in 2013, I'm called to be bishop and. And I don't know exactly when it was probably within the first couple of years of being bishop, there was a policy change with Respect to Gays 2015. And we were having a discussion in ward council about it because, of course the church was going to take a lot of heat. This was a controversial thing. And I was pointing out to members of the ward council that, you know, a lot of people are going to compare this to how the church changed its position on the blacks and the priesthood, that eventually the church is going to change its mind about homosexuality. And I was trying to explain that this is different, it's not going to happen. And I was using the teachings that I had received growing up to justify and to explain that. And a member of the ward council raised his hand and gently pointed out, well, I'd be a little bit careful there. The church has disavowed those teachings.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] The racist teachings.

Sam Pinson [00:03:24] Yes. And that was the first that I had heard anything about that and didn't compute. Like what? I don't know what you're talking about. So anyway, wait, can I pause you

Timeline of Doubt and Faith Crisis Beginnings

John Dehlin [00:03:37] for just a second? So just because I really like timelines, and I really like to highlight the bubble. So I started Mormon stories in 2005. The podcast starts growing. Other podcasts come online. CES letter at some point comes online. The church comes out. Actually, before CES Letter, the church comes out with its gospel topics essays around 2013. CES letter comes out around 2014. Kate Kelly, you know, her disciplinary council starts happening around 2014. She's excommunicated in 2014. IMAX communicated in 2015. All of this happens, along with all the other excommunications and leading up to the November 2015 policy. So to what extent had you guys heard of any of this stuff, had opinions about podcasts, blogs, church history, the gospel topics essays? Did any of that hubbub, international press, any of that penetrate your Mormon bubbles

Sam Pinson [00:04:41] up to 2015 in general? No. The only thing that I could say, maybe I was aware of, was that there were some unruly women somewhere in the church. There were some women causing trouble, and I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] You wouldn't have even known K. Kelly's name?

Sam Pinson [00:05:01] I don't know. I don't think so.

Sara Pinson [00:05:03] Well, I knew Kay Kelly's name.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] And you thought.

Sara Pinson [00:05:05] And I thought it was wrong. Well, I didn't know what was really behind it. I just heard what the church said about it.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Which was.

Sara Pinson [00:05:14] Which was that she was out of line or that it comes from the brethren? It doesn't come from, you know, she's not allowed to make changes like that. And I didn't even realize all they were doing was saying, hey, could you ask God if it's okay? You know, I. So I didn't realize that part of it. And when she was excommunicated, I kind of thought, well, she shouldn't be surprised because she's fighting against the church. Right. And I hate that I thought that, you know, I have these regrets about things I thought and said as a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] And part of that that's interesting to me is that your spirit was kind of feminist.

Sara Pinson [00:05:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] You were having these feminist impulses all along the way. You were packing them down, Kate. And all the women fighting for ordained women were trying to enact change in the church that would help elevate your voice so that your conscience and desires weren't as muted, so that the patriarchy would be weakened a little bit and women could be elevated. But you had, I guess, internalized sexism. Is that.

Sara Pinson [00:06:21] Yeah. And I think that's what I mentioned earlier. I definitely did, because I couldn't see her cause for what it was. And I Think sometimes when you're packing something down, deep down you want something like that, equality, but you don't get it. It's easier to criticize those who are trying to get it. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's kind of a psychology thing of what we do to make us feel better about the fact that we don't want, have something we want deep down. So I think I was doing a little bit of that, just mentally. I never heard of Mormon stories, never heard of CES letter, not even the gospel topic essays. I mean, the church didn't advertise them.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] So as bishops, as bishop, you didn't know about the gospel topics essays.

Sam Pinson [00:07:14] So I. And by the way, it's not like

John Dehlin [00:07:19] you're some Idaho farmer.

Sam Pinson [00:07:21] Right?

Sara Pinson [00:07:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Like you five years at Microsoft. Super. You know, not just tech savvy, but a program savvy with computers. This is 2015, 2013, 2014. You know how to use the Internet and your bishop.

Sam Pinson [00:07:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] And.

Sam Pinson [00:07:36] Well, I wasn't looking, that's for sure. I don't know that. Like, it never registered that such essays exist. But I'm super busy. I'm a bishop and I already know the gospel. I already know church history. I graduated from institute and a church university. Like there wasn't something missing that I was looking for. And so what would be the purpose in going out? So I don't know exactly when somebody ever mentioned for the first time to me gospel topic essays, but I know in 2015 it was news to me that the church had disavowed some of its teachings.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] Really quick, did you guys want to say Sam, Sam Jr. Were you wanting to say something really quick?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:08:21] Well, yeah, I don't want to just repeat the point, but personally, in terms of the bubble around my experiences, I think that I mentioned briefly that I kind of started getting involved in philosophy and politics and started exploring ideas. And I not only knew how to use the Internet, but I used it naively. Unsuspecting or just not suspecting the possibility of real legitimate criticisms of the church. Because again, when you have experiences, when you're trained, this is the church, you can think there will be criticisms, but I'm secure in my knowledge of the, the validity of the church. So I think that me actually exploring ideas of philosophy made me as a 12, 13, 14 year old, actually feel like, well, I'm enlightened. Like I know the ideas there are and I understand that there might be some criticisms of the church, but that's okay. So I think the first time that I actually ever Discovered independently, discovered. Something that made me want to wonder about the church just a little bit was during my freshman year of high school. I was actually at public school at that point, and I was looking at the news, and there was an article about the Mormon Church changing its position on, like, homosexuality in terms of apostasy. And so, yeah, I basically had the same experience overall, but the Internet, I think, played a slightly bigger role in the. Things began to change just a little bit for me.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] Anything you want to add, Olivia, to all this? Did you hear about K. Kelly or Ordained women or any of that feminist stuff?

Guest 1 [00:09:53] Yeah, I did. And I think I'm like my mom, where I have a feminist spirit. I mean, I remember, like, going to activity days, you know, as a little girl and just being mad that I couldn't play basketball with the boys and Scouts, because that was so much cooler. And we had to sit and do crafts and talk about girl things. And so I definitely. I think part of my personality is just what maybe, like, made me. I was always very interested in, like, social justice, like, from a really young age. And I did. I did stumble across, like, the church essays as I probably, at 14, just in doing a lot of research, and there was a. I had a ton of internal conflicts with feeling like I needed to believe and I needed to be a perfect Mormon and realizing that, like, I wasn't, and I really never had been. And I was trying really hard for years to become that person. And so I did a lot of research. I was always, like, reading the scriptures and trying to do what I was supposed to do, even though none of it was working for me. And, yeah, knowing about these things that no one else seemed to care about, even if they did know about them, was really hard for me. And, like, our ward youth group was really small. It was me and one other girl at one point. And so I didn't have a lot of support there. I was homeschooled through middle school, and so I kind of became really socially isolated. And so all these internal struggles, I wasn't able to talk to you guys. The times I do remember attempting to. It was very, like, shut down. Like, what are you saying? Stop. No. And so that was about what topics I remember. So I don't really like labels, but I had feelings for a girl. When I was 14, I kind of started to realize that I wasn't just straight, and so I started to really care about LGBTQ issues. And I was.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] While your dad's bishop?

Guest 1 [00:11:59] Yes. Yes.

Sam Pinson [00:12:01] Yep.

Guest 1 [00:12:03] So I remember bringing that stuff up a Little bit. And of course, it was always like, that's so unnatural, and that's not God's plan. And I felt very misunderstood. And so I think I had a lot of resentment, a lot of resentment towards church leaders and towards you guys, which kind of just put me in this downward spiral because girls camp became progressively less fun every year because I felt like I was just surrounded by people who were different than me. And that's okay, but I felt like I wasn't able to be myself. I wasn't able to express who I was. I always felt just kind of trapped. And, yeah, my dad being bishop didn't help.

Sam Pinson [00:12:45] And I was not supportive. I was not helpful. So I'm sorry.

Guest 1 [00:12:55] It's okay. Yeah. No, I mean, it took a lot of forgiving, though. I remember when it was about a year ago that dad was like, so I'm leaving the church. And there has been.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] We'll get there. We'll get there. We're not there yet.

Guest 1 [00:13:10] No. It definitely took some forgiveness of, like, people change, and that's okay. And it's been really healing. So.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] So there's. Okay. So there's hope to this story.

Guest 1 [00:13:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] That's nice.

Sam Pinson [00:13:24] So we're talking about those unruly women. And so I think I was aware that there was some kind of movement. And I would have offered at least this argument. This church is led by God. If God wants to make a change. We're not led by grassroots movements. God will. It comes from the top down, not the bottom up. And I really believe that. And thus, even if maybe it would be better if women participated more fully and equally in the church, that's not the way the church works, which is the church's line. Right. So I find out in 2015 that the church has disavowed former teachings. I read the essay, the Race and the Priesthood essay. The Race and the Priesthood essay as a bishop troubled me.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Did it?

Sam Pinson [00:14:16] It did. It troubled me at least two reasons. The first is that God can be a racist, but he can't disavow himself. And it wasn't that I wanted a racist God. And I never thought of the LDS Church as racist or its doctrines as racist or myself reading the Book of Mormon and supporting what it says as racist never would have occurred to me, as now I understand is very racist and God is racist. But so there's racism in the scriptures that I had become accustomed to and just let slide. So I was comfortable with the racism at some level, but I'm not comfortable with God disavowing himself. So that was massively troubling for me. And the second part of it was the church's blatant dishonesty in how it presented the issue. And by that, I mean, this was racist doctrine. This was absolutely the church's teaching. And now in this essay, they're trying to tell me that it was just the racist theories of past church leaders, that it was never doctrine. So both of those things were very heavy for me. But I knew the church was true, and therefore, I don't know what to make of that. But I set it aside, and I really think it was because I was bishop, the sense of duty that I felt, all of the social pressures, family expectations and pressures caused me at that point to just set that aside. And so I tucked my head down and I pressed forward and I did my best, but that was.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] Now you're packing things down.

Sam Pinson [00:16:18] Yeah, absolutely. That was. There. That was troubling.

Sara Pinson [00:16:22] Have fun with that.

Guest 1 [00:16:23] No.

Sara Pinson [00:16:24] And I noticed. I started noticing him be depressed, which is not his personality at all. I've never seen him like that. I thought maybe he was just getting burned out. Being bishop. It's hard, but I could sense the weight. He didn't want to go to the temple with me anymore. I thought he was just, well, if you're bishop all the time, of course you don't want to spend your extra time going to the temple. Like, I just thought it was that. I didn't know, you know, that it was troubling him, but I knew something was wrong.

Sam Pinson [00:16:55] Yeah. Things were changing internally. So

John Dehlin [00:17:02] it's kind of weird to think about having a faith crisis begin when you're bishop.

Sam Pinson [00:17:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] And this isn't because I think my story's important, but I'm just curious. Had you guys heard about Mormon stories or my excommunication leading up to that?

Sam Pinson [00:17:19] No, not at all. So we had traveled back and forth between Washington and Utah and Idaho and Utah. And so at some point, I know I saw billboards. I don't know exactly when those went up, but I didn't go to the website or anything like that. I didn't at that. Like, I didn't feel like I had. Was having a faith crisis. I didn't admit to anybody my concerns when this happened. I didn't talk to Sarah about it. I didn't say, did, you know, what do you think about this? We didn't have that discussion. I just kept that to myself.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] Yeah. I mean, it's just weird that, like, the New York Times tweeted my excommunication but orthodox, devout Mormons living in Utah or an adjacent state are so in the bubble, they wouldn't hear about something that was kind of international news, whether it's Kate Kelly or me or Jeremy Runnels or any of these other excommunications. Just the bubble is real and it's super powerful.

Sam Pinson [00:18:23] And if I had heard about you or anybody else being excommunicated, I would have thought, I guess they got what they needed to get. They must have been doing something wrong.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:18:34] The church is always right.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Yeah. Okay. So how did things progress?

Sam Pinson [00:18:40] So I. Like I said, that troubled me, but that did not destroy my testimony. I wasn't faking it as bishop. I was still trying my best to serve and testify and be close to the spirit. And then the time came for changes to be made in the leadership, and I was released and then immediately called to be on the High Council. And I got my High Council assignments, which included serving in the Spanish branch. I don't know Spanish. I do love language, and I sincerely tried my best to learn Spanish and to participate in the Spanish branch as much as possible. But this had the effect of allowing my church burden was greatly lightened moving from bishop to high counselor. And I guess because I didn't know Spanish, I had more time for my thoughts to wander. And in that time, I revisited that essay. I went back and I started thinking about it again.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] Had you had any friends or siblings or cousins leave the church? Had either of you been exposed to any apostasy of any friends, family, ward members, et cetera? Even as bishop, had you had to counsel anyone who was losing their faith? Or was this just like the first time, just the idea of it even being possible to lose your faith even occurred to you?

Sam Pinson [00:20:26] I had a brother who became inactive, I guess, when he was a teenager. And I was probably on my mission when that became apparent or public to the family. So I'm at, like, a spiritual high while that's going on. It's never been discussed as a family. It was certainly damaging. It creates distance. I don't have that in common with him all my life. And so, yes, I had a family member that was an apostate in terms of counseling people.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] And you were distanced from him as a result?

Sam Pinson [00:21:10] Yeah, I felt like anytime he wants to come and be a good member of the church, then we can welcome him back. Maybe not as explicitly in those terms.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] But your relationship with him during so much of after his apostasy was what?

Sam Pinson [00:21:27] Well, I had gone up to Provo Physically, we weren't in the same location anymore. And so there were some natural separation that happened that way. But when we did get together, it was an unspoken divide. Like, what happened to you? Unanswered questions. What happened to you? Like, where did you go wrong? Where did you lose your faith?

John Dehlin [00:21:51] But you didn't ask those questions.

Sara Pinson [00:21:52] Right. Unanswered questions that were never asked.

Guest [00:21:56] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] And were you distanced from him as a result, emotionally, was your relationship?

Sam Pinson [00:22:01] I think I tried to befriend him. But at the same time that you're trying to have that relationship, there's this problem.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Elephant in the room.

Sam Pinson [00:22:13] Yeah, elephant in the room, like.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] And he never tried to tell you about doubts or problems?

Sam Pinson [00:22:18] No. And there was one time when we had all gotten together at my parents house and I was in the car taking him to the airport. He lives in Southern California. And I, because I'm this devoted member of the church, I got up the courage to try to broach the subject and I asked him and it was very apparent he was uncomfortable with it and didn't want to talk about it. And so I dropped it.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] We're really good at not talking about the elephant in the room in Mormonism. Amen. Okay, so back to you. Now you're starting to.

Sam Pinson [00:22:57] So I'm revisiting that question. So I go back and I think about it again and no, this just does not work for me. And this is what year this would have been?

Sara Pinson [00:23:13] Well, you were released 2018.

Sam Pinson [00:23:15] 18.

Sara Pinson [00:23:16] So probably still 2018.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] So two years ago.

Sam Pinson [00:23:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:23:21] And one of the things that we're taught is that criticism of your church leaders is the first step on the high road to apostasy. And I think that's right. But I allowed myself to be critical. Like that's not okay. The church is lying to me. And I didn't know about most of the racist history actually. Like, I had this vague notion that there used to be a priesthood ban, but we took care of that. That's in the. Nothing else to it. I started doing research. I had previously voluntarily kept myself in this bubble because I had been taught you can't trust anti Mormon lies. You can't read anti Mormon literature. There's nothing good that will come from that. It'll just destroy your faith. And I had voluntarily kept myself from information that I probably could have found if I had not had that attitude. I read some of the other gospel topic essays, Book of Abraham.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Oh, okay, wait, so you start, you go down the rabbit hole?

Sam Pinson [00:24:32] Yes. Two years ago, Kinderhook plates. That blew my mind.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] What about it?

Sam Pinson [00:24:38] That Joseph Smith claimed that he translated a portion of these 19th century fabricated plates.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:24:46] Like he got caught in a lie.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:24:50] And so what about Book of Abraham?

John Dehlin [00:24:52] What did you. For those who don't know anything about this.

Sam Pinson [00:24:54] Yeah. So the same thing caught in a lie where, when Joseph was claiming to have brought forth, translated the Book of Abraham, the papyrus from Egyptian. Exactly. People didn't know Egyptian. And so how is anybody going to tell him he's wrong? How is anybody going to challenge him on that?

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And as a linguist, as someone who translates languages, that's kind of serious business for you.

Sam Pinson [00:25:21] Yes. And once again, the church is, as I see it, wild dishonesty in how they try to spin what's happening where now before it was always there was the papyri and it was translated. And now we have this catalyst theory where the papyri was just a mechanism to bring forth inspiration and that just doesn't work.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] Why didn't you like that? I mean, God's powerful. God works in mysterious ways.

Sam Pinson [00:25:53] Well, I think it's, it's.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Is that literalist?

Sam Pinson [00:25:57] There's that, there's that. And why didn't we know that before?

John Dehlin [00:26:01] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:26:02] Why are we coming up with this theory now? And why aren't you teaching this stuff in seminary? Why is it that I'm learning about this? Nearly 40 years old, for the first time as a 100% all in member

John Dehlin [00:26:14] of the Church, Former bishop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what about the Book of Mormon translation stuff?

Sam Pinson [00:26:20] Same thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Same thing for those who don't know.

Sam Pinson [00:26:23] Well, so there's so much. So much to it. Right. So in the text of the Book of Mormon itself, there's anachronisms that.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Horses and steel.

Sam Pinson [00:26:33] Exactly. Archaeological problems, linguistic problems, genetic problems. Genetic.

Guest [00:26:38] The.

Sam Pinson [00:26:39] Yeah, the DNA evidence, which all shows what? It's fiction.

Sara Pinson [00:26:44] It's not a historical document.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Spell it out for those who don't know.

Sam Pinson [00:26:48] Okay, well, so many things. So if the book of the text of the Book of Mormon mentions horses, which it does, but there were no horses in the Americas during the time frame of the Book of Mormon then.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] Because the Spaniards brought them over in the 1400s, they had existed in the

Sam Pinson [00:27:09] Americas before the Book of Mormon times,

John Dehlin [00:27:14] long time ago, Ice age stuff.

Sam Pinson [00:27:16] And were extinct. Right. And so there were no horses. And then Joseph Smith's environment included horses in the Americas. And so he writes it into the text of the Book of Mormon. He doesn't know any better.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] Along with wheat and.

Sam Pinson [00:27:29] Yes. And on and on.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] And on barley and swords and metal helmets, helmets and shields and wheels.

Sam Pinson [00:27:39] Millions of people being involved in military conflicts. And you think about the food supply, like the logistics, supplies that would be necessary to support armies like that. And there's zero evidence, archaeological evidence of any of this. It's just spun out of the air out of nothing. And I can't believe it never even occurred to me. I feel embarrassed. I feel embarrassed. But.

Sara Pinson [00:28:06] And when you learn about, at that time a lot of people were thought the mountain builders were white and trying to explain the whole Native Americans and they couldn't have done these wonderful things

John Dehlin [00:28:19] like it's built on the dark. Native Americans couldn't have developed such sophisticated societies because they're savages. Because we were committing genocide.

Sara Pinson [00:28:29] And you can't, you gotta explain that

John Dehlin [00:28:31] you can't respect people, people you're committing genocide on. So they have to be unhuman savages. So there must have been a light skinned race that built these beautiful civilizations. And that's all in the air. When Joseph smith in the 1820s, him and others come up with explanations, there must have been a white skinned version of these Native Americans that were actually smart and capable. And that's where the Nephite and Lamanite story springs out of. Sorry, I just wanted to fill that in.

Sara Pinson [00:29:01] No, that was beautiful what you said. Yeah. And I think that for me was a clincher because I always want to understand why people do things. Well, why would Joseph Smith just make up a book like that? But then to know people were trying to explain back then, they were trying to explain just what you said. And then to see the Book of Mormon in that light of he was making up the story about white people then becoming unrighteous and being banished by the not white people.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Which also is super racist. Right?

Sara Pinson [00:29:34] Absolutely, absolutely. And just put it in context.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] The dark skin curse. Let's make them dark so they're. So they're loathsome. Dark and loathsome to the lighter skinned. But we're not racist because they're, because they're wicked. That's a super racist. The whole Book of Mormon, not even

Sara Pinson [00:29:51] the foundation verses that people quote. But the entire foundation is racist. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Jr.'s OCD and Scrupulosity Diagnosis

John Dehlin [00:29:57] Okay, really quick. So Sarah, you guys have been living the Mormon dream. You've been packing down all these feminist inklings. You guys reached the pinnacle of kind of first level Mormonism, which is Bishop and Bishop's wife. You're in Ammon, Idaho where you grew up, and then your husband gets released and he starts going down the rabbit hole. What's that like for you as you're watching him go down the rabbit hole?

Sara Pinson [00:30:20] Well, I think I have to back up a little bit because I feel like I was somewhat prepared to handle what was happening to him. So I. Was it 2018? Yeah, 2018, I actually started a counseling program. So I started a master's program in mental health counseling through Idaho State or.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:30:45] Yeah. And Sam's scrupula. Sam Jr. Scrupulosity. What kind of the catalyst for that?

John Dehlin [00:30:52] Do you want to talk about that first or not?

Sara Pinson [00:30:54] Or about the scrupulosity?

John Dehlin [00:30:57] Anything you guys want to mention about that? No pressure, no pressure. Just whatever you want, I guess.

Sam Pinson [00:31:04] Just very briefly, I'm Bishop, and he's having this. Do you want to tell it?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:31:11] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] No pressure. Only what you're comfortable.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:31:13] No, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I guess I don't know how far we want to go into this, but to give the brief overview, I started developing, I guess, scrupulosity.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Tell our listeners what that means.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:31:30] For me, it meant an extreme, compulsively obsessive. It's tied to ocd. Compulsively obsessive.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] You know, religiosity.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:31:43] Religiosity. In this case, yes, absolutely. You know, I. And again, with dad being Bishop, I would be watching a movie, and I'd be attracted. Or I'd have feelings of attraction towards a woman, and I'd be like, holy crap. You know, like, it wasn't just. It wasn't just, hey, mom and dad, like. Like, what's going on? It was in my mind. You know, there'd be these compulsively obsessive cycles that I could not control, and there's a whole history to that. But, yeah, when it comes to how that affected me and the Church, I think. I won't say that the Church caused that for me personally, although I can definitely see how it could be the catalyst for that. But it absolutely facilitated it.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] And so that was feelings of guilt and shame.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:32:32] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Feelings.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:32:34] Sexual feelings and a lot of different things. It was legitimately. It was insanity as far as I was concerned. I.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] Why?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:32:42] What do you mean I wasn't capable of. It's hard to put into words because it's not just I wasn't capable of reason or I wasn't capable of seeing clearly. It was not only the compulsive and obsessive aspects of it. It was also like every single thing I did had the potential to become something that, you know, consumed my mind for hours or days or weeks. Right. Like, everything had that potential. And so then on one hand, it turns into constant fear, like, and this at its worst, it probably lasted about two years, 10 to 12, roughly, I think, for me. And so it was a matter of you're living in constant fear, and when you're always thinking, like, it's going to go off, you know, I'm going to have some huge downward spiral into being terrified of having sinned, right. Having to confess, then I, you know, that makes it far easier to have those problems begin, to have that downward spiral begin in the first place. And one thing that was huge. And I don't know if our interactions on that basis, with me confessing, like, multiple times in a single day, sometimes to different incidents that I thought were like, you know, I was damned to hell basically because of this. If I didn't confess, like, I definitely remember asking some questions like, like, I wanted. Because of this dangerous mental condition, I was like, I want basically, like, like, what is it that I have to confess to? Because, like, worrying about it and trying to figure it out because especially with the bishop being your dad, like, it's torture to try to say, hey, dad, here's this personally embarrassing thing that I feel like is horrible, right? It was the worrying about what was or was not something I needed to confess about that was the real problem for me. And so, yeah, I kept coming to you and saying, you know, like, like, what's the. The to do list basically, of, like, this is when and how you need to confess. And that was something that many conversations circulated around. And. And I'm not sure if that. If the culmination of all of those interactions influenced at all your.

Sam Pinson [00:34:57] That wasn't part of my faith crisis or transition or anything, but it was part of yours.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] So let me just try and understand this. And we've covered scrupulosity in the past and Mormon stories. Check it out. It's hyper religiosity, trying to manage your thoughts, taking the gospel very, very literally, to the point where you're literally fearing death, interpreting scriptures. Like, to have a thought, a sexual thought, is as bad as committing ad that it's near murder in severity. And so you've got these teens or young adults thinking they're almost murderers if they have a bad thought or do what normal teens do to kind of express their sexual urges or feelings. And there's a level to which that's all of us. That's you, that's me. That's just like, oh, oops, we goofed up. We had bad thoughts. And that's the shame cycle. Is kind of what it means to be Mormon, you know, but then there's a point where it crosses the line and becomes clinical, where either the OCD is just eating up hours and hours a day, or you're hyper confessing, hyper praying, hyper serving, even to the point where it's starting to severely impact your mental health. Anxiety, depression, and then sometimes suicidality become very severe. So my question, to whatever extent you're comfortable sharing, is, was there a point where it kind of crosses the line and it's not just like, whoa, he's, like, really righteous and really conscientious where you're starting to be worried for his emotional or physical safety and whoever. Absolutely. Okay. So.

Sam Pinson [00:36:36] Well, as bishop, as he said, it was bad multiple times a day. Sometimes he's.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] What.

Sam Pinson [00:36:44] He would be coming to me and say, hey, Dad, I need to talk to you at home. Not even like, yeah, I work from home.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] So you're trying to get work done.

Sam Pinson [00:36:53] Well, I mean, it's not a nuisance to talk. Well, I guess it did become a problem. Like, multiple times a day he'd come, need to confess something that he had already confessed that didn't need to be confessed. He would write letters confessing all of these things. And. And it didn't matter what counsel I gave. It didn't matter what I.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] So you would say things like, yeah,

Sam Pinson [00:37:18] you don't need to confess that. Don't confess.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Like, here you've got a bishop saying, don't confess.

Sam Pinson [00:37:25] And it didn't help. Like, it didn't.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] So when he says to you, don't confess, what goes through your mind?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:37:31] Well, At its worst, during the times where I imagine you'd be tempted to be yelling, stop confessing. More or less, it was seriously just an inability to compute the. Like, to process the idea of not confessing. And partly because, as you mentioned, it's. It's. Everything regarding religion is literal in an increasingly toxic way. I remember reading scriptures in my diligent, righteous scripture study time. You know, like, he who takes the Lord's name in vain, like, will not be forgiven. And I'm like, crap, I am screwed. And so then I'd come to mom and dad, be like, help me. I'm really gonna. You know, like, I believed it. And so, you know, I believe it. And then there's.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] If you have the thought or if you're the word slip out, then you're damned.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:38:30] Yeah, exactly. And so then like, oh, my gosh, what am I gonna do with this? So, yeah, if my dad, as bishop would say, Stop confessing. I'm like, no, no. Like, you don't. You don't get it. You don't understand. And I guess that not just with the religious aspect of scrupulosity, but also with OCD and other delusions. Right. When you're in a certain mental state, it's like you just don't understand. Right. Like, you. You don't get it. And that's the, that's the real tragedy is when obviously, again, there's a mental component that isn't. Wasn't for me, completely tied to religion. But, you know, there I. I felt like, unfortunately there was actually or remains some sort of basis for my actions in the scriptures. Meaning that if I studied something and read a scripture like that, like, I interpret it in the way that's worse for my eternal happiness. And then, you know, why not? Like, why not have that be something that's all consuming? So it was definitely a vicious cycle that was, again, facilitated by religion.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] And at the core, I'm sure you're worried that you won't go to the celestial kingdom, that your family won't be a forever family. Like, the stakes, I'm guessing, were super high for you.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:39:39] Yeah. And that's something that we've talked about at length, is when you have this idea of. Of eternity and of like, oh, my gosh, there's the celestial kingdom. There's these things. Like this idea of I could be the. The weak link that makes so that our family chair.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Right, right, right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:39:55] Like, that's. That's terrifying. And then, you know, as you begin to start to develop in, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13, whatever age it is, you start to sort of think about the world in more abstract ways and develop your sort of worldview and perception. You know, when all of that baggage comes along. I think that, yeah, for me at least, that was hugely devastating in terms of my capability to be competent in handling difficult ideas, especially around religion.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] So what you guys were saying, when did you start getting worried that this was potentially clinical?

Sam Pinson [00:40:35] I think there's. Go ahead.

Sara Pinson [00:40:38] I think we were worried. I was worried from the beginning, but

John Dehlin [00:40:43] I had, like, you could just say it's a righteous son. A super righteous son.

Sara Pinson [00:40:47] No, because it. It was bad because he was confessing constantly. And we would. He would talk to me like he confessed again or four times today, and I had no clue what was going on. And there were some other manifestations. Like he stopped touching us if I walked past him in a room. He would maintain, do this weird thing to get out of the Way. So he was never within six feet of anyone.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] What was that about? Do you know what that was about?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:41:17] I like to think I saw the coronavirus coming early, but at the time it was so. So there were specific ideas. Right there. Specific ideas. Like you touching someone, like, your mind's gonna. Because of this twisted, you know, mess that I got myself into with religion. It was like, if I touch someone, it doesn't matter who, it doesn't matter why, it doesn't matter how. But, like, it's. You're. I'm always a step away from, like, making a move that with the right perceived intentions in my mind, means that I'm guilty of some damnable sin.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Like.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:41:48] Like.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] Like touching. Molesting your mom or something. Sexual.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:41:51] Yeah, well, yeah, sexual stuff. And. And the worst moment that. The worst memory I have of this at all, we were at Yellowstone National Park. We were having a good time. It was on this big family road trip. And, you know, I was in the midst of the worst of this. And we were walking by, like, you know, like, the big pools and all that stuff. Yeah, right. And I'm, like, looking back, I imagine I must have looked like a zombie or something, but it was seriously, like, head down. And what I was paralyzed of, like, for. For hours. Like, the whole time we were there was like, if I. If my foot, like, shifted and in my brain, like, the idea of, like, that pushing someone into the. Like, I was guilty.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Kill someone.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:42:31] Yeah. Like. And that's the thing. Like, I wasn't homicidal. I wasn't some homicidal kid.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] Yeah.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:42:37] I obviously don't want and have never wanted to kill anyone, but once I had gone down the rabbit hole of that. The mental twisting and whatnot. Yeah. Like. Like, well. Well, if me, like, brushing shoulders with someone is, like, basically, like, me wanting to rape them or something, like, why not? Like. Like, like murder and all these horrible things are just a step away when that's the kind of thing that's being repeatedly driven into your mind every day. So, yeah, like, it got to the point where paranoias. Not being able to trust other people's. Other people telling me, like, dad and mom telling me, like, what was horrible and what was just like. Like, chill out, you know, not being able to perceive what reality was and not being able to understand the difference between a thought and, like, an intent.

Sara Pinson [00:43:28] Reality in particular.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:43:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Olivia, is there anything you want to add as you kind of were experiencing your. Your brother going through all this? Is there anything you want to add in terms of just what you were experiencing at the time. Did you notice this? Did you know what was going on?

Guest 1 [00:43:45] Yeah, to some degree. Not as much as I should have or could have because I. I wish I could formulate my words better. Like, a lot of this has been kind of pushed down and it's not like, easy for me to talk about. But yeah, I did notice that he was very obsessive. And, you know, we. I remember like, we'd go to the stores and he would just be like, you know, you'd see magazines with girls, like wearing bras or whatever. You just like, look away. And I always like, Sam, like, loosen up, you know. But I also understood it to a degree. I never had it as bad as him. But like you were saying, like, I think cycles of shame is just part of being Mormon. And I definitely had, especially entering on women's for at least a year, just like that intense obsessiveness with being perfectly righteous and a little. Definitely some fear that, you know, I was gonna go to hell or whatever. So.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] So sorry.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:44:46] Yeah, well, and just to. Just to make sure that this is perfectly clear, again, I. I can only speak for myself, but I definitely don't think, as far as I'm aware that like, religion is something that brings people on a consistent basis to the level like I was at. Like, obviously scrupulosity is a spectrum, right? I assume that not everyone has, like years of crippling mental illness, but for me, not only did the OCD already exist pre any religious involvement, it was also like, it was to such an extreme point that again, it was like it was beyond functioning, was impossible. And so I just don't want to give the idea that that's like some guarantee or common. That level at least is a common occurrence. I hope it's not in regards to religiosity.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] We've covered this a lot on a few pipe. Scrupulosity Episod Basically, the general feeling in the mental health industry is that religions don't cause scrupulosity. It's more that OCD attacks the things you care about most. So if you're in a high demand orthodox religion and it's the religious stuff you care most about, then if you have ocd, which is often genetic and it's an anxiety disorder, then it's going to manifest as scrupulosity instead of hoarding or safety or cleanliness or the other forms of OCD now. But I also think it is fair to say that a high demand religion exacerbates this and kind of primes someone for it and can add the stakes and the pressure to the level where it can become very unhealthy and even deadly. So it's not that religion is totally off the hook here. A lot of the scriptures, a lot of the teachings, Bad leaders can take a situation that's bad and turn it worse and even deadly. So we don't blame religion for scrupulosity, but when high demand religions get out of control, they can exacerbate it and make it really awful.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:46:45] Yeah, absolutely.

Sam Pinson [00:46:46] And so I think the scrupulosity started. I started noticing it after I became bishop. There was some evidence of OCD before that, but the scrupulosity started after I became bishop.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] And you were saying, Sarah, that as you noticed him going through this, it was the beginnings of maybe some unraveling for you. Is that.

Sara Pinson [00:47:08] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Okay. No.

Sara Pinson [00:47:10] But

John Dehlin [00:47:12] it led to.

Sara Pinson [00:47:13] I was just seeing my son suffer, and I had no idea why. I didn't know what was going on.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] Did it seem serious? Like potentially very serious. What was your biggest fear? Was there a rock bottom?

Sara Pinson [00:47:23] It was like watching him change before my eyes, like losing my son.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] You were losing him?

Sara Pinson [00:47:27] Yeah. Like I didn't recognize him anymore. He. He acted different, he looked different, he couldn't function. Like, he just wasn't my Sam anymore. And that's really hard as a mom. And I knew about ocd, but I thought it was like the hand washing thing. I had never heard of any religious thing like that. And so I was praying. I'm sure we were all praying for him and not having any clue what was going on. And then I was at the library one day and I saw. I'm kind of. I love books, and books have often come into my life at just time and kind of saved me. So I saw this book that had OCD on the COVID really big. And I just felt like this magnetic pull to go pick up that book. And I thought, but that's not what Sam has. That's not what's going on. And. But I picked it up and I looked through the table of contents, and it had scrupulosity. Religious. And I was like, oh, my gosh, there's religious ocd. And it was. So from that point on, I started researching, and I really wanted to find someone who did ERP treatment, which is exposure.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] Exposure. Ritual response prevention. Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:48:44] Because that seemed like it had good evidence for. And there wasn't anyone locally who did that. So we actually drove to the OCD and anxiety center in Bountiful.

Guest [00:48:52] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:48:53] Yeah. And they Diagnosed him, and they said it was severe based on the intake paperwork, and they wanted us to come, like, four days a week. It's very intensive there. And so I was like, well, we have to do this because it was crippling and he was suffering. So we drove home to talk about it.

Finding Help at an OCD Treatment Center

John Dehlin [00:49:15] Let me just ask. Was there a rock bottom moment where you're like, something that led to you being willing to go to the center?

Sam Pinson [00:49:22] Well, it seemed to be getting progressively worse. And that road trip that he mentioned being in Yellowstone, he was physically paralyzed. It was.

Sara Pinson [00:49:34] He couldn't walk. He couldn't get up off the bench because he thought he would knock people into the hot pools. So, yeah, I think that was rock bottom. And now I know we were doing everything wrong because we were constantly reassuring him, which is the worst thing for ocd, but we had no idea. Right. You just try to be a normal parent and just say, so you're offering the reassurance.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] The reassurance. And that's for those who don't know. The way that OCD works is you have these intrusive, obsessive thoughts, and then you develop compulsive behaviors to neutralize the anxiety you're experiencing. And so the confession and. Or the seeking reassurance or the rumination becomes the compulsive behavior. So if your family is in the role of reassuring you, then they're feeding into this codependent, super unhealthy, toxic relationship of them actually increasing and augmenting and strengthening your compulsive behaviors. And it's really awful. But you're just trying to be loving, reassuring parents, right?

Sara Pinson [00:50:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:50:36] So anyway, we came home from the clinic and we're talking about what. How to move forward. We didn't have insurance that covered mental health. We.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] It's expensive.

Sara Pinson [00:50:46] It's so expensive.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] It's like eight grand. Right.

Sara Pinson [00:50:48] We don't live in Utah, so how are we going to be.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] Yeah, you didn't live there. How'd you do that?

Sara Pinson [00:50:53] Well, we didn't. We didn't ever attend the clinic.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Oh, you didn't do it?

Sara Pinson [00:50:56] No. He was actually put on the waiting list. And then I. I was becoming passionate, you know, mother bear coming out, becoming passionate about mental health. And I came downstairs to Sam's office one day, and I said, I have something I want to tell you. And he's like, you want to become a counselor, don't you? I was like, how did you know? But just the fact that there weren't counselors that knew the therapy, it really got to me. And I thought, this is a void in our community. And so I decided to go become a counselor. But then he spontaneously got better. Well, it wasn't immediately, but we never went to the clinic.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:51:37] So if I may, I think that this might actually be a source of relative confusion still. So, so, so, ironically enough, my recovery I actually attributed to God, you know, for some obvious reasons, I guess. But what happened was basically, I. We had just gone to a cabin. It was in sort of one of the lulls because, you know, it gets worse and better and worse and better. And it was during the time when it was horrible, right? I kind of had a system in place of how I confessed, though. Like, because it was just a given that, you know, on a daily or weekly basis, confessions would be happening. But we went to a cabin with some friends, and, you know, one of these things happened, which was ridiculous, right? Which is obvious to me now. I went and confessed to dad, and I could definitely tell now. I remember being able to tell in that moment, like, dad was just like, like, like, like, dude, like, like, what, like, what is this? Like, like, you know, it wasn't anger or anything, obviously, but it was just, this is not a problem, right? And so I cannot. Like, nothing was super different about that. I remember it because it was a recovery or the moment of recovery. But for some reason, like. Like, seriously, I cannot. I've thought about. I cannot fathom a reason for why it suddenly changed. But I think there's a technical term for it. Whatever grip the disease had in my mind was just, like, broken. And I didn't do anything. But suddenly I could think in a manner which actually rationalized reasons not to have this compulsive, obsessive cycle, right? And so from there on out, I've expressed in the past, like, guys, like, this is, like, that was it. Like, it was over. Like, after that, it was done. I didn't feel the need to confess and stuff. And so, as I think you were about to mention, like, apparently there was sort of a petering out of the actual, like, confessions and weird activities and things like that. But, like, I knew, and it was really a source of, like, constant joy for me. Like, I knew, like, it's over. Like, it's changed now. Like, I'm free. And so, you know, there were still actions kind of leading out of that. You know, it didn't all just totally disappear overnight, but my mindset has, like, had fundamentally changed.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] What was the shift? Was it that my dad can't forgive me? Was it that God loves Me, no matter what. Like, what was the shift?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:53:56] I think the shift was. And again, I have no idea why it happened, but the shift was really going from, okay, let's say I hit Olivia on the shoulder. Oh, my gosh, I'm an incestuous 13 year old. Okay, that's crazy thought, sorry, it might be awkward. It goes from like, that as, like a possibility. Then I'm like examining myself, like, well, am I an incestuous 13 year old? Like, like, was. Did I have some intention? And then I dig up these emotions and ideas, right? And like, I search for an answer that. I search for an answer to a question that shouldn't exist, right? Because that's not a normal. That's not normal mental functioning. And so it went kind of from that sort of cyclical mentality to I was just able to understand the nature of my actions and intents. I think that's the best way to put it, right? So I had Olivia on the shoulder, and it's like I hit her on the shoulder. Now it went from, oh, my goodness, like I've sinned against the Lord, the church, and all that is good and beautiful in this world to okay, I, like, like, it's nothing, right? Because everything that I obsessed over was like, quite literally nothing. It was just absolute nonsense. And so again, I don't know why,

John Dehlin [00:55:14] that's almost like a miracle. Like, it's really rare for this just to spontaneously. You know, usually you have to go through months, if not years, of what you called exposure and ritual prevention, or erp, exposure therapy, where you're paying eight grand to go to this clinic, inpatient or outpatient, and you're just for months doing these exposures with these therapists, with all these other kids, so that over time you can learn to develop acceptance of your thoughts, holding your thoughts and feelings loosely, and learn to stop performing the compulsions that then feed the. You know. So this is almost like a saw on the road to Damascus. I'm of the younger moment in the mental health realm that you just all of a sudden, like cold turkey, had this aha moment. I mean, it kind of is a miracle that we don't have an explanation.

Sara Pinson [00:56:03] We considered it that he did seem to get better. And also when we went to the clinic, she diagnosed him and she said, you are no longer allowed to confess. And I learned I'm not supposed to reassure him. So that could have been part of what helped, right, is that we stopped that enabling behavior.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:56:24] Spoiler. I confessed anyway.

Sara Pinson [00:56:28] Yeah, I did my best.

Sam Pinson [00:56:29] Our behavior's Changed.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:56:30] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:30] Okay. So you stopped enabling it, and that helped.

Sara Pinson [00:56:33] It helped a little bit.

Sam Pinson [00:56:34] Education.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] Some education helps.

Sara Pinson [00:56:35] Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Okay. But it wasn't the only thing.

Sara Pinson [00:56:39] I think we did consider it a miracle. And at that point. So from the time we went to the clinic to when we were, like, we were wait listed, and when they called and said, he can come now, he was better. So how I made meaning of it at that point was by then I was looking up programs and deciding to become a counselor. How I made meaning of it was, well, maybe I'm just supposed to become a counselor, but my son had to suffer for that. I don't know. And then once I decided that he got better, it was a coincidence anyway,

Sam Pinson [00:57:14] so a thought that I have in all of that. So you were planning on going to school? We had been homeschooling, and that was going to stop now since she's starting her own master's program. And so Sam would be going to high school. He was middle school. Middle school. He was socially isolated. He wasn't having opportunities every day to bump up against people. And so there's some exposure that was coming. And we talked about. I remember talking in the backyard, are we gonna do this clinic or are we gonna try and see what happens with you going and being exposed to more social interaction that way and see if that helps? And we decided to give it a try. And.

Sara Pinson [00:58:03] Yeah, and that was something that the therapist at the OCD clinic did say was because he tries not to touch people. Being in public school, where he's walking through the halls and he has to touch people constantly, will really help. So he was pretty. I feel like you were pretty much better by the time school started.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:58:23] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:58:24] But then that probably helped maintain any progress.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:58:27] Well, yeah. And again, not surprisingly, I put quite a bit of thought into how the whole recovery process happened. And I think basically there was that. That, like, definitive moment where I knew, like, suddenly my entire ability to reason and comprehend reality, the reality of things, was magically transformed. Right. And then it was like the actions petered out. Right. And I think that that was basically done by the time that, you know, I started going to public school. But then, yeah, you know, you still have very powerful remnants of the mental processes and cyclical patterns. Right. But because of the magical transformation, now I could understand those for what they were, and they weren't compulsive and uncontrollable. And so then. Yeah, you know, I think that there's no doubt that me interacting with people at public school helped reduce or, you Know, change. Those took a lot of exposures, right?

Sara Pinson [00:59:21] Absolutely.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:59:22] Yeah, but. But it didn't. And I don't think it actually changed. It wasn't the cure. Right. It didn't stop the mental, but it absolutely helped. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] Well, that makes sense. All those exposures, you know, if you're home, if you're isolated, homeschooled, you can really live in your room and you can really kind of isolate if you're out of school and all these girls walking around and all these thoughts you could be having, maybe that served as a way to give you some exposure.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:59:47] Yeah. And I've been talking a ton, so I don't want to take up all the time in the world. One more thing I will say though, is. Yeah, first of all, that's absolutely true. And it's also true that I guess with all of this, you really start to realize just how. How hard, like, how important it is. At least this was my experience. I kind of thought, like, wow, it's really important for me to understand and control how I think. And so then that, like, led strongly again with my amazing parents, who are very. Even at this time under. Within the church were very reasonable and loved to reason and to think about things and to study things and taught me how to think critically, you know, that all transformed me into someone who was relatively decent at thinking through things and being critical and somewhat objective. And so that. I mean, we're gonna get there. I don't want to rush ahead. But that definitely also played a role in allow improving my ability to accept my dad leaving the church and then me leaving soon after.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] Okay.

Guest [01:01:15] Come, come ye saints no toil nor labour fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo Hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high

Sara Pinson [01:02:19] Tis

Guest [01:02:20] not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your Lord courage take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have. Oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. And should we die before our journey's through happy day? All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus well. Oh, all is well all is well all is well, all is well

Guest 1 [01:05:11] all

Guest [01:05:11] is well, well oh, is well. All is well all in the way.

Guest 1 [01:05:38] There.

Sam's Release as Bishop and Growing Questions

Part 3 of 7 · Ep. 1323

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Okay, so to kind of loop this back now, we were talking about you going down the rabbit hole. But how. But how your wife, you, Sarah, maybe you starting to study mental health stuff was a. It helped prepare you.

Sara Pinson [00:00:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] So let's get. Let's now jump back to that.

Sara Pinson [00:00:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:00:54] So, yeah, first semester, take a multicultural class. Learn about things like ethnocentrism, that my culture, my values, my belief system are not everybody else's, and that that's not one is not better than the other. And that if you believe that it's ethnocentric. Right. And that we don't want to do that with our clients, we don't impose our values. So earlier when I was talking about missionary work, not ever jiving with me, I think for the first time I felt like, oh, this is who I am. Not to. I don't impose my values on people. This is just who I've always been. And that's why missionary work didn't fit with me, because that's really what you're doing. And you're saying, I have something you don't have. Let me share it with you rather than let me learn from you. Right. So it was really validating, and it helped me see that that was a good thing about me. It didn't mean that I wasn't righteous. It was actually a positive thing and very helpful in the counseling field. So that was something. I think my paradigm started shifting just where. How could this be the one true church? You know, I just started considering other cultures and how they. They think they are doing the right thing. They think that they're doing. They're living their values and they're happy, and how could that be? In the program, I also learned about substance use and how there's a difference between substance use and substance abuse. And it just stopped being a moral issue for me, where I think it can be seen as a moral issue for members, especially when you can't go to the temple if you don't follow the word of wisdom. So I started not really questioning, but just if the church is here, I was here with the church. I just started just shifting everything, my worldview, everything. I also started really valuing authenticity and knowing how important that is to mental health, autonomy, things like that. So that I think when Sam said to me, I feel like a fraud when I get up and I give talks to wards and I don't believe any of this, then I was absolutely like, go ahead and ask to be released. Go ahead and stop going.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] So that wasn't a big shock?

Sara Pinson [00:03:23] No. Well, it was a shock. It was a shock. But I knew how important authenticity is to mental wellness. That I was like, you. I don't want you to live like that. You need to. You need to. Do you go ahead and be released? Like, I was 100% behind him.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] But what about. What about him losing his faith? Like, that's, you know, we talked about your marriage and your agreement. The whole marriage was built around Mormon faithfulness.

Sara Pinson [00:03:44] That came later.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] What do you mean? What do you mean?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:03:46] Well,

Sara Pinson [00:03:49] I guess the anger, feeling like he was ruining our eternal faith.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] That came later. At first you were just worried about his mental health?

Sara Pinson [00:03:55] Yeah, at first I was like, that's not healthy. Go ahead and ask to be released.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Was he sharing with you the things that were causing him to doubt, or was he holding that from you?

Sara Pinson [00:04:05] I don't think so. Not in depth.

Sam Pinson [00:04:08] So with the things that you were learning and the church's position on social issues, like gay rights and gay marriage and everything.

Olivia Pinson [00:04:22] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:04:22] And you go into that.

Sam Pinson [00:04:23] So we started having conversations. I hadn't revealed any of my concerns yet.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Was that part of your training to be LGBT affirming?

Sara Pinson [00:04:29] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Okay, talk about that. Go ahead and talk about that.

Sara Pinson [00:04:32] And intellectually, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. Like, if I help clients, I can do that. But I hadn't made the internal shift. I still had a lot of biases. I mean, we all have biases, right? But for a class, I had been encouraged to do a cultural project where I would pick a population that maybe I didn't know very well or I had biases towards and do something to kind of dive into that population and try to work on my biases. And so I decided to interview three gay people.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] And I just have to say, for a Mormon girl raised in Ammon, Idaho, this is like uncomfortable, unchartered territory.

Sara Pinson [00:05:19] I'm imagining it absolutely was.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Because it's a prophet spoken.

Sara Pinson [00:05:24] Right, right. And I was terrified of the project. I really was. But the whole program was so. There was so much self development in the program, I just dove in. I loved every bit of it. And I knew I was terrified of this, but I knew that I should do it. And so I interviewed these people, and one of them was kind of like a mini Mormon story because he was raised lds. And to hear. To hear him talk about hating himself and praying for years that he would be changed and going on a mission and asking for the mission president to give him a blessing

Olivia Pinson [00:06:14] that he would be changed.

Sara Pinson [00:06:16] It broke my heart.

Olivia Pinson [00:06:17] And,

Sara Pinson [00:06:20] yeah, just all three of these people, I realized, wait a minute, they didn't choose this. They would want to change it if they could. They can't change it. And all they really want is to have a lifelong partner they can be with, just like most of us want. And how was that a bad thing? That was a huge moment for me, with all my stereotypes that I had learned kind of from the church and some from society were just broken down. And. Yeah, so at that point, I was like, the church has got this wrong. They've got it wrong. But I was still very much still, like, in. I was like, I can still be in the church and disagree with them on this issue because it's still very helpful to me, and it's still true. Maybe they just got this thing wrong. I don't know how my brain kind of wrapped around it. But, yeah, that was a big shifting moment for me and realizing maybe they're not getting this information from God, the prophets. Maybe they're working with their own biases and just trying to figure things out like the rest of us. So that was big. And then also. Well, I don't know if we want to talk about the temple changing, too. That was before you. Yeah. So in January 2019, when the temple changed.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Tell us what the changes were.

Sara Pinson [00:08:07] Yeah, so I didn't know what they were. I heard there were changes, so I go into the endowment to see what the changes are. And the part that I'd been struggling with for decades, saying that I should hearken to my husband as he hearkened to the Lord, that was different.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] They took it out.

Sara Pinson [00:08:25] They took it out.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] What did they change it to?

Sara Pinson [00:08:27] Well, I can't remember now, but I think it's just hearken to God. Just like the men. It's the same covenant now. And there were other changes.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] And by the way, these are the types of things that Kate Kelly and ordained women would have been asking the church to change.

Olivia Pinson [00:08:40] Right.

Sara Pinson [00:08:41] So I remember sitting there and hearing that part, and it was like I had a literal weight lifted off my shoulders. I just. And I didn't even realize how much that was weighing me down until that moment. And it was just like, oh, you know, heaven's open. And I felt immense relief and just contentment, like, oh, this. This is right. But then I went home and started thinking, but why did it have to be wrong all those years? And it was validating that that whole time, this didn't sit well with me. And then to come to find out it was wrong. And then I started researching, like, the temple endowment and how it had lots of changes throughout the years. And part of me was okay with

John Dehlin [00:09:32] that because they're making it better, at least.

Sara Pinson [00:09:36] Yeah. And I get that we're like, we're kind of the fruit of our time. And so maybe there's changes, but I had been told for decades that I was less than. That's the message I got from that part of the temple. And so I couldn't just wash that away. So, yeah, I was relieved at first. And then it became a huge problem, a huge, you know, area of dissonance for me where it didn't make sense.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] I have to say that's very similar to your concern about race in the priesthood because you're like, I had been believing and defending racism for decades. They can't just like, make these changes that expect us all to go, okay, things are better now.

Guest [00:10:24] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:10:25] So I'm glad for all the positive changes that the church is making, but it's actually change that ultimately was the problem for me. And just backing up a little bit, I think, related to some of the stuff that we talked about earlier. I was taught if you look at a woman with lust, it's equivalent to adultery, which is sexual sin, which is equivalent to murder. Right. I made exactly those connections. And that was part of the intense guilt that I felt growing up. And I bridled my passions and pressed forward. And then the gay marriage movement gains traction and becomes more in the news and in my face. Like, I could just not pay attention to it earlier, but then it becomes more in my face, it becomes more of an issue and a problem for the church.

Olivia Pinson [00:11:24] And.

Sam Pinson [00:11:24] And then the church tries to change to accommodate and be less of, Less offensive and less othering, less harsh. And so they're creating websites like Mormon and gay. And I'm now hearing from the church, being like, having same sex attraction, having these feelings, that's not sinful, that's not a problem. Just don't act on them. And I'm what? My entire life I've had heterosexual attractions and I've been told that's wickedness and you better not do that. And now it's okay for gays to have, like, there were some serious issues there that didn't make me. That didn't. That wasn't like a breaking thing. The church isn't true anymore. But that was part of. I'm starting to realize that I grew up thinking that There are these eternal principles, absolute truths that I have that never change, never have changed. And now I'm finding out, actually the church changes continuously with society. It just drags a few decades behind. That's what I observed.

Sara Pinson [00:12:45] Yeah, yeah,

Guest [00:12:48] yeah. If I could just add something.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] You say that into the mic.

Olivia Pinson [00:12:51] Oh, yeah. It's just I hear a lot of people who are. Recognize that these changes take place and yeah, they're like, yeah, the church does lag behind these social changes. And I know a lot of members who are like, support gay marriage and are like, call themselves like, advocates and all these things, but allies. Yeah, yeah. Which is good. But in the process, the church is harming people, especially people living in very like. Especially people living in, like, Utah and Idaho and very homogenous communities who maybe are gay and don't have any sport communities. They're being told all around them that they're evil and it's not okay to lag behind society. Like, that's not good.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] Especially when you have prophets that are supposed to, you know, be talking to God and that are supposed to put you ahead of the curve. If you discover the prophets are actually way behind the curve, then it came a problem.

Guest [00:13:45] Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, and while we're on the topic of, like, the practical problems with what religion produces, we were having this conversation and I just had the thought. I mean, there's obviously maybe not a monopoly, but religion certainly espouses and encourages hatred and prejudice against homosexuality and that LGBTQ community. And it's just so patently obvious, especially from the outside, that if you want to, you know, encourage hatred of homosexuals, then getting a bunch of voluntarily sexually suppressed men and then establishing double standards in your doctrine for what sexual sin is and is not. I mean, that's the perfect pathway to get to that, which is obviously problematic.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] Smart kids.

Sam Pinson [00:14:37] We love them. Proud of them.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Okay, so you're not liking the double standard.

Sam Pinson [00:14:42] Yeah. So I still haven't said anything to Sarah about what I'm thinking. This is. I'm researching, I'm learning more. I didn't want to do anything rash, like, hey, you disavowed stuff. Not cool, I'm out of here. And I just wanted to make sure that I'm cool headed, I'm well informed, I know what's going on. And so I researched and researched and researched. She starts sharing things that she's learning with the counseling program and her developing increasing concern that dissonance with the church's position on social issues. And so I guess I started feeling, well, you're kind of criticizing the church there. I've got some criticisms. And so we started having critical conversations about problems that we saw in the church.

Sara Pinson [00:15:44] Yeah, but I was not open to the historical stuff. For me, the social justice stuff was it. If it's harming people and if it's not aligning with my values anymore, that's huge. If people did weird things in the history, whatever. Like if he wants to look in a hat to get the Book of Mormon, it's still a great book. Like, you know, I was. I'm not feeling that way now. But at the beginning, I was not open to all the history that he was sharing. And it was very uncomfortable and unpleasant.

Sam Pinson [00:16:19] And I was just the opposite. For me, it was all about the truth. I thought I had it in the church. And then I found out that the church was lying to me the entire time. And so that was it. And unlocking myself from the prophet's moral code and allowing myself to decide for myself what my values are and what I want to support and everything that, like, I understand and on board with progressive social issues now, which blows my mind totally. 180 degrees different from my political views and everything growing up that were dictated to me more or less by the church as I understood them.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] And Mormon stories listeners will have heard me talk about this many, many times. I got this from Dr. Dave Christian, a dear psychologist friend and in Logan, Utah. He gave a talk in a Mormon Stories conference once where he talks about the validity and the utility distinction within Mormonism that there's validity Mormons that are in it because they believe it's true. And that was you, Sam. And then there's utility Mormons that are in it because it works, because it's useful. And that was sort of you. And if we have to go along a stereotype kind of role, men tend to be more validity Mormons, they care about its truthfulness. Women tend to be more utility Mormons, they care about it helping you raise kids and being a good support for the marriage and for the family. And so women tend, on average, tend to care less about the history, at least at first. And the men tend to care less about the social issues. And so you guys fit that mold pretty, pretty tightly. Yeah. Yeah. And so when he would tell you these things, you would react how the

Sara Pinson [00:18:07] historical stuff, I would feel sick to my stomach. I would listen to him. I wasn't going to shut him up. I wanted him to be able to share. I wanted him to be able to be open. And again, I think my Counseling program helped prepare me for that. But yeah, I would very much be like, okay, and then I'll just put that over there. Okay, I heard that and put it over there. And. And I had read Mormon Enigma, like, years ago, so I knew a lot about Emma. It's about Emma Smith and polygamy. Joseph lying. So I already knew a lot of that.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Joseph Lang to Emma about all the

Sara Pinson [00:18:56] wives who he was marrying or not marrying. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] And sleeping with.

Sara Pinson [00:19:00] Right.

Olivia Pinson [00:19:00] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:19:01] So I knew that.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:19:03] I don't.

Sara Pinson [00:19:03] I don't know. I can't fathom why it didn't bother me when I first read it.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Because the bubble is real.

Sara Pinson [00:19:09] Yeah. And we even went to Nauvoo for like a family road trip. And I asked the lady, you know, it's the tour guides are Community of Christ people. I said, are these the stairs that Emma pushed Eliza Snow down? Like, I was so excited when she.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] When Eliza. When Emma found out that Eliza Snow was having sex with Joseph. Right, right.

Sara Pinson [00:19:35] And the communication was like, I don't know if that story's real, but I was like, maybe these are the stairs. I was excited. Like, excited. Why didn't it bother me? I have no idea. But it didn't. Sometimes you're just not ready for the information to get through your armor. But.

Sam Pinson [00:19:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:19:57] You want to say something?

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Sure.

Guest [00:19:59] Yeah. Well. And I mean, I actually draw a lot of parallels between like, OCD that I personally experienced and just like things like that. Like, for example, the. It's really depressing, I think, particularly as a child of you two who are amazing parents, but paying him later. Like the fact that two people who I know love each other very much could both hold reservations or criticisms of this great organization, this all consuming aspect of anyone's lives, and not have to, you know, beat around the bush with that, like, in that relationship. That to me is like, that's the exact sort of mental imprisonment that was my state as like highly mentally dysfunctional. And that's something that really, you know, drives me up a wall, is when I see like the mental captivation that religious thought, whether you're indoctrinated as a child or converted, really just, you know, forces upon its, I'd say victims.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Yeah. It's not a super popular, not good terms to use, but like, mind control is a thing.

Sam Pinson [00:21:19] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] And if you're, you know, you can call it teaching or education, you can call it indoctrination, you can call it mind control, but the power that the church has psychologically, this bubble of not just you being insulated physically from friends and from non Mormon influences, your brother, et cetera. But the psychological walls that go up so that you could be clearly having feminist sensitivities, even know about Joseph's polygamy and the lying, but it never penetrate to actually have you ask, wait, is this true? And do I really believe this? And is this okay? There's so many walls up that keep people completely insulated and it really is. It's cult like and it's mind control and it's incredibly powerful.

Sara Pinson [00:22:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Did you want to add something, Olivia?

Olivia Pinson [00:22:15] Well, for me it was really interesting when they left the church because I had like given up on the church probably. Well, it's complicated because I kind of feel like I walked a fine line between the validity and the utility thing. I think I was more interested in the utility. And so the church wasn't useful for me. It hadn't been since I was probably 13 or 14. It was causing me a lot of distress. And so. But I stayed because like that cult like mentality and my entire community is based around it, right?

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Parents, cousins and grandparents.

Olivia Pinson [00:22:53] Yeah, literally everyone. And so I kept going to church even though I hated it, but I was always trying to force myself to love it. And so there's a constant like battle. So when. And I was also terrified people would find out about my sexuality, thankfully.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Were you internally identifying as bisexual or.

Olivia Pinson [00:23:10] Yes. So I realized I liked girls before I'd actually even heard the term bisexual. And I remember we went on a road trip and I discovered that term there and I was like, it was easier for me than a lot of people who struggle with their sexuality in the church because I think I already didn't believe. Like in my core I didn't believe. And so I didn't feel like I was evil. Right. It was easier for me to accept it within myself, but there was still that external fear that other people would find out and then judge me or hate me or condemn me.

Sam Pinson [00:23:42] And so it just be clear, was

John Dehlin [00:23:43] there traction to guys too, or. Yeah, okay, okay.

Olivia Pinson [00:23:46] Yes, I am. Yeah, I'm bisexual.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:23:50] And

Olivia Pinson [00:23:53] so I think that that made it easier also because no one was suspecting me because I, like you guys, knew I had a crush on a guy before, right. So I didn't feel like I was ever like had to hide it. But I also, it made it feel. I felt more invisible in a sense. But when you guys left, it sort of channeled this breaking point where I. Because you kept going to church for a while, like after dad left, right. A little bit.

Sara Pinson [00:24:26] Right.

Olivia Pinson [00:24:26] It was that, like, transition period, and I. I felt like I needed to make. I needed to make sure that my choices were completely separate from your guys', if that makes sense. And so I. That's why I started, like, going talking with Bishop so much. I thought, maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe I could just try one more time. And it was probably not until November of 2019 that it just broke. And I was like, I'm not wrong. I'm leaving. And, like, the release, like, I was so happy. Like, it was the best feeling in the world. It was. It's so freeing to release yourself from that cult, like, mentality.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] It's weird because so many people talk about religious conversion as, like, this powerful, incredible, happiest moment of their lives. And you're talking. You're talking about deconversion. Yeah, that's like a spiritual experience. Yeah, it was a spiritual experience.

Olivia Pinson [00:25:20] And it felt.

Sara Pinson [00:25:21] It was.

Olivia Pinson [00:25:21] It was incredible. Yeah. Well, and something really interesting that came with it was. I'm not sure why this came with it, but with that release came this very. Like, it was like, my sense of eternity sort of left, and I felt very. I felt like I was going to. Like, I had a. I don't know how to. Sorry, I'm not good at the words. I had a clear concept.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Yes, you are.

Olivia Pinson [00:25:44] That I had a clear concept that I was going to die. And that sounds morbid, but, like, it was just this. I all of a sudden had this passion to live for life rather than for other people or for some concept of God or eternity. And to me, that was very freeing.

Sam Pinson [00:26:00] Love that.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] Oh, my gosh. Love that. So powerful.

Olivia Pinson [00:26:06] It was good.

Reading the CES Letter and Losing Faith

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Okay. So we kind of jumped ahead a bit because you're talking about your dad leaving the church, and we haven't heard that.

Sara Pinson [00:26:12] So another thing that Olivia reminded me,

John Dehlin [00:26:15] but I'm glad we heard that.

Sara Pinson [00:26:16] Yeah, that was beautiful. After I interviewed those three gay people, I think Sam and I had a hunch with Olivia's sexuality. She would kind of drop hints. She would share with us, like, a lot of advocating for the LGBTQ community. And so I guess we kind of had a hunch. But then after interviewing them, I thought, I never want a child of mine to not be able to talk to me about this, because I heard the stories of how crippling that was. And so I just said, do you think you're gay? Like, I just asked her one night.

Olivia Pinson [00:26:57] Well, and that's what was amazing, is that I didn't come out. I mean, I Was trying, you know, little by little. But you asked me, and that was amazing that you were able to have that open minds to. Yeah, well. And I remember when we had that conversation and dad walked in and then he was like. Like, this was a surprise or something.

Sara Pinson [00:27:16] And I was like, what are you doing? Well, he was actually the one suggesting to me, I think Olivia might be gay. And I was like, yeah, I didn't know that. So.

Olivia Pinson [00:27:25] Yeah. Anyway, anyway, I'm really. I'm very grateful for that. It. I don't think I struggled with my sexuality the way a lot of young

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Mormons do, so good job, guys. Well,

Sara Pinson [00:27:38] I don't know if we can take credit. There's a lot of blame that we could take, too.

Sam Pinson [00:27:42] Super proud of my behavior. I had a couple of thoughts that I think are relevant in the whole story. So I think it was sometime after the gospel topic essay, Raising the Priesthood came to my attention. Still bishop, still faithfully serving. Haven't said anything to Sarah in the evening, decompressing, laying on the bed, chatting on my phone, on Facebook, looking at stuff. And there was somebody we knew from Washington state who apparently had apostatized and was talking on Facebook about things that he had learned. And he was criticizing the church. And I. That, of course, gets your defenses up. And I didn't feel good about it, but I didn't stop reading. I. I still read some of what he was saying, and he mentioned this publication called the CES Letter. I didn't read it, but I became aware of it at that point. And then after.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Do I know this person?

Sam Pinson [00:28:46] Jeremy Reynolds?

John Dehlin [00:28:47] No, no. The friend.

Sam Pinson [00:28:48] No, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:28:50] No, it's just somebody in our ward.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Okay. In Ammon.

Sara Pinson [00:28:54] He was actually. He was a missionary.

Sam Pinson [00:28:56] Missionary who served. He married somebody who was in our ward, and that was that connection.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:29:05] So then I was aware of the CES letter. And then when I was revisiting all of these things and doing research, then I decided, I'm going to find out what that's all about. And I read about all of the issues in that.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] This is two years ago.

Sam Pinson [00:29:19] Yeah, yeah. And so it's like every day you're learning something new. You read the Book of Mormon a billion times as a member and you're supposed to learn new things. But I kind of knew the gospel. There aren't these grand new revelations coming. And I knew it. And then I find out as a budding apostate that there's so much. And so I was soaking up all kinds of new information. We were having these discussions. I was sharing with her what I was reading in the CES letter. I invited her to read it. And at what point did you take that up?

Sara Pinson [00:30:00] It took me a long time. He bought a physical copy and just, like, put it on the table in our house. And I think I instinctually knew that it would be my downfall, so I didn't pick it up. I wasn't ready for that amount of growth yet, so I didn't pick it up for a long time. I don't actually remember when I read it, but after that, my heart had already left because of the social issues and disagreeing with the church and my paradigm shifting. But I couldn't leave intellectually. I wasn't ready to yet, or I couldn't stop thinking it was true yet. And I kind of knew the CES letter would do that. So once I read the CES letter, I was. It was a done deal. Because if there's no utility, you see the harm in it. And then you also have that historical part, the validity.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] What's left?

Sara Pinson [00:31:07] Yeah. You just can't fight against it.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] It's what do. Were there any specific things in the CES letter that were really impactful to you? He's talked about, you know, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook plates, Book of Mormon, translation, historicity, the Book of Mormon. We know that you had LGBT issues and feminism issues and actually, one opportunity for the CES letter. And Jeremy is intentionally not, like, adding to it because it represents what he was concerned about at the time, but, like, it doesn't talk about race too much or women's issues or LGBT issues. So. But I'm just curious. What. What were the biggies for you?

Sara Pinson [00:31:46] I think I was still really hanging on to the Book of Mormon. It had been a comfort to me, and I found a lot of solace in it over the years, so I was really hanging on to that. So when I read about the anachronisms, when I read about the similarities between other books written at the same time,

John Dehlin [00:32:06] Book of Napoleon and View the Hebrews and. Right, yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:32:11] That crushed the late war and all that. My thoughts about the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Because you felt like what?

Sara Pinson [00:32:19] I felt like he made it up.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Like Joseph made it up from existing texts and ideas.

Sara Pinson [00:32:24] Right. Which doesn't mean that I. That I never felt power. I don't know how to explain it.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Yeah. Truth is truth. Right.

Sam Pinson [00:32:33] If the Lord of the Rings is powerful.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:32:36] Right.

Sara Pinson [00:32:36] It doesn't mean that I never received those good things, and it doesn't mean that I didn't feel powerful experiences while reading it, but that it wasn't historical. That he did make it up. Yeah. Okay, so that.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] That was your big takeaway?

Sara Pinson [00:32:49] That was the big thing from the CS letter. I wish I had kind of flip through it again to remember because, like I said, I already knew. I knew the polygamy, but I didn't know the extent.

Sam Pinson [00:33:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] Polyandry, the 30 wives and marrying other men.

Sara Pinson [00:33:05] Polyandry. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] Which is what?

Sara Pinson [00:33:07] For those who don't know where, he married women who were already married to other men.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] Faithful living men.

Sam Pinson [00:33:14] Faithful living men.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:33:16] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:33:16] Who were sent away on missions.

Sara Pinson [00:33:17] She would send men on missions and then marry their wives or tried to while they were gone. The whole Orson Pratt thing, his, like, insanity episode because of finding, like.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Finding what?

Sara Pinson [00:33:29] Finding out that while he was gone, his wife had been approached by Joseph. And I can just imagine the cognitive dissonance he was dealing with and how they kind of called it, him having a sanity episode. Just things like that that are horrific. And. And now I could see it as well. He used spiritual manipulation. He, you know, is threatening them with eternal. You know, eternal, be my wife or your family won't be saved. Or. Or you will be saved only if you be my wife. That kind of stuff. Just repulsive.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:34:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:34:10] And the witnesses. Like that was.

Sara Pinson [00:34:12] Yes. I was hanging on to the witnesses, too.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] The three witnesses and the eight witnesses.

Sara Pinson [00:34:16] I was thinking.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] I mean, Martin Harris and, like, what can go wrong? Oliver Cowtree.

Sara Pinson [00:34:21] That was a huge part.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] So what happened to the witnesses?

Sara Pinson [00:34:25] Just that their accounts weren't. That they actually saw the plates, that it was. That they saw it as if in vision.

John Dehlin [00:34:34] Spiritual eyes.

Sara Pinson [00:34:35] Yeah, with spiritual eyes.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] You thought that they were physically seeing the plates.

Sara Pinson [00:34:43] And so.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] And so if they saw with their spiritual eyes, what did that mean to you?

Sara Pinson [00:34:49] It means they didn't see it. They either took hallucinogens or they worked themselves up into a frenzy to imagine that they saw it.

Olivia Pinson [00:34:59] Or.

Sara Pinson [00:34:59] I mean, the Mount. The mind is powerful, so they could have imagined seeing. I don't know what it means, but it means they aren't as credible as I had thought.

Olivia Pinson [00:35:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Plus, they're all like family, right?

Sam Pinson [00:35:13] Yeah. Have financial interests in it. Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:35:17] Well. And, you know, the. The group pressure psychologically. If someone says they see something, then you try to, like, imagine that you're seeing it too. Right. So.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:35:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] So the witnesses fell.

Sara Pinson [00:35:31] Yep. And that. That with all the other Book of Mormon stuff, you know, ruined the Book of Mormon for me. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:35:41] I think just Overall, on top of it all, it's just the pervasive, massive dishonesty. Like the church. Why am I getting all of this from Jeremy Reynolds? Why didn't the church teach me that if there's nothing to be afraid of here, if this is. They were just acting as men. Why are you not telling me that the prophets are acting as men? And the reason why is because you wouldn't end up with super zealous people. I mean, I'm following because God's speaking through these prophets. And what I actually, I can't imagine having a super powerful experience at General Conference if they stood up. We welcome you to General Conference. Some of what you hear today is going to be

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:36:29] false.

Sam Pinson [00:36:30] Yeah. It might be racist and sexist, homophobic,

Sara Pinson [00:36:33] cultural suggestions, but not commandments.

Sam Pinson [00:36:36] Yeah, take what you will. Some of it might be uplifting or helpful. Okay, first speaker. So on the one hand, when people find out about these issues, they try to explain it, as you're trying to judge him by the standards of today, he was just a man, while simultaneously saying, prophets always teach the truth. And this is. Maybe this will come up later, I'll address that later. But the dishonesty was there from the beginning and it continues today. And when you're part of a fraud, you don't realize what's happening. So for me, I have no. It wasn't what I was sold. It wasn't what I thought I had. And I have no use for somebody claiming to speak for God who's actually just telling me their opinion. Right.

Sara Pinson [00:37:30] Yep.

Guest [00:37:31] Yeah, well, and that was. It relates somewhat to the disciplinary council, which again, we'll get to. But like, it's so, like inherently contradictory to say in one breath, you know, like, I speak and act with the authority of God, like the almighty creator of the universe and all that's good. Like, like that being backs me up. But the things that people act on, my words, that people act, you know, live and die on, they might be opinions, you know, like, who knows? Like, it's not just a matter of like, well, you have less powerful converts. It's a matter of what are you saying? Because both of those things just can't be true. And that's what's incredibly frustrating about the whole illusion is this idea that on one hand we're going to say, yes, I will do whatever the prophets say because God says.

Sam Pinson [00:38:19] Right.

Guest [00:38:20] And then on the other, well, you know, those guys, the ones that contradict the prophets of today, they were just spreading their opinions to your point.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Yeah. Okay. So what happened then. So at some point. So at some point, you just lost all belief and you.

Sam Pinson [00:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] And you're still. I guess you're still hanging on. Is that how it works?

Sara Pinson [00:38:43] Well, for about seven months, I did.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] What was that conversation where you're like, I'm done.

Sam Pinson [00:38:50] So where I said, well, so I was doing all this research, and I. I guess I got to a point. I don't even remember when exactly it happened. I think it must have been in February.

Sara Pinson [00:39:08] I think it was February this year.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Last year, yes.

Sara Pinson [00:39:12] Okay, 19.

Sam Pinson [00:39:13] I was still on the High Council. And so you have your assignments where you're supposed to go around representing the stake president and testifying of the truthfulness of all of this. And I can't do that. So I met with the stake president and I asked him, I said, hey, these are things that I've learned, like disavowal. Is there some way that you've, like, you know about that, Right? Is there some way you've interpreted that that makes it okay? Or how have you processed that? And there is no good answer for me.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Had he thought about it? Did he acknowledge the problem?

Sam Pinson [00:39:57] Yeah, he was aware of it. And I think it's just. They were speaking as men and so you don't expect perfection. You're like, moses made mistakes. Prophets make mistakes. This is nothing new. Nothing to see here. Nothing to see here.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] Why didn't that work for you?

Sam Pinson [00:40:18] Well, I suppose if they did say, hey, welcome to conference, some of what you will hear will be like, if they were honest to me about the fact that a lot of what I hear from prophets is just their opinion, if they allowed for that at all in the present, maybe it would have worked for me. But that only applies to past prophets. The current prophets speak for God and they must be obeyed and relied on 100%.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] You just can't have it both ways.

Sam Pinson [00:40:51] Yeah, you can't have it both ways. It's dishonest.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] So what if somebody were to say you were just set up for failure? Like, it's unfortunate that you had conservative parents that taught you true or false, the binary thing, but what if they were just to say you misunderstood? It is both. It's that they're led by God, but they're fallible. And so it's both. You just believed an inferior, rigid type of Mormonism that sets you up for failure, when in reality. Yeah, it's both. It's that they're doing the best that they can. They are led by God, but they're going to make mistakes. And you kind of live in that middle ground.

Sam Pinson [00:41:32] Yeah. So we started. Well, I guess this came a little later. But what I found following.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] We don't have to get there yet if you are not ready. Well, you save that.

Sam Pinson [00:41:43] So what would I say to that? I don't think I misunderstood anything. You told me that I should obey the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet.

Guest [00:41:56] And you did not.

Sam Pinson [00:41:57] When you were telling me things, you did not allow for the possibility that the prophet could be wrong and I could be right. You did not allow for the possibility of me getting revelation that contradicts what the prophet says and I'm right and the prophet is wrong. They explicitly disallow that. And so it doesn't work for me.

Sara Pinson [00:42:16] Well, and I was taught that kind of nuance by your dad. Yeah, my dad talked about knowing that the priesthood ban was wrong, but knowing that things come from the brethren and that you wait for them to get it. So. So I did kind of hold that nuanced place, which is why after feeling like the church was wrong about gays, I could still be a member and I could still participate. But it got to the point where if I can disagree with them and still be a good member of the church, but like, okay, fine, but what's. What's the point? If I'm, If I'm just following my values and I'm not necessarily following theirs because I think they're wrong, then why

John Dehlin [00:43:04] do you need them?

Sara Pinson [00:43:05] Yeah, why do I need them? I know how to follow my values myself. I don't need to wait for them to change the gay policy. I don't need to write, I can just live my life now without that.

Guest [00:43:18] Well, and I personally consider that the courage not only of you and dad, but also of the. That sort of secular, like, morality. Right. Is I don't need an ever changing, inconsistent, unreliable religion or religious people to dictate what my morals should be. Right. And obviously, technically speaking, the church follows that type of thinking as it progresses with society just lagging behind. And I just, I had a thought in respect to the question of, you know, well, what if men are fallible, but they do still speak for God? Not only, like, you know, are there plenty of problems with that. I think even if, like, there hadn't been contradictions, even if it was all honesty, it calls the entire religious system into question. Like the Bible alone, you know, where you find cultural instances of the Bible where it's like this seems to condone slavery. Well, shucks. Like, I guess this is the fallibility now. Right, but that's the point. Everything is not only open to interpretation at that point, it's open to interpretation by anyone with equal validity. And that, I think, is the crux of how it's just impossible to answer that question in a satisfying manner and add something.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Olivia?

Olivia Pinson [00:44:30] Yes. Well, just in. I don't want to, like, attack anyone or call anyone out, but in light of, like, recent events, we've seen with, like, racism and police brutality, the problem with the prophet being your ultimate authority or God being your ultimate authority, especially when it's within a church that has espoused racist and still espouses racist teachings. A lot of my friends, the only thing they've really said about all of this is sharing Russell and Nelson's words on it. And like, to me, that just feels very. I understand why they're doing that, but when you're not comfortable enough to speak up with your own words and you're using the words of some prophet, like, it's just. It's counterproductive and it's wrong.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah, I think about it. There are a lot of things I could do with my time, and I'll just ask your forgiveness for just a tiny little editorial. I'll be really brief, but there's a lot of things I could do with my time. I'm into politics. I was a poli sci major. I could get into politics. I could do mental health stuff. I could go into business. So why do I keep doing this? I do believe that religion is a binding force. If you look at, and this isn't even me being political partisan, because I'm not super Democrat or super Republican. I care about truth and health and well being, not about parties. I think both parties are problematic. Both parties have good things to say. I could be a Republican or a Democrat, depending on what issue we're talking about here. But if I think about the ills of society, which is poverty, racism, sexism, homophobia, ignorance, just rancor, like all the problems of society, I sometimes feel like it can be religious forces that bind people into mentalities that are not healthy for us. And it's not that I'm even anti religion, because there are plenty of religions that are progressive in their sensibilities, but I'm anti high demand authoritarian religions that keep people with a sexist, racist, homophobic, anti, you know, anti progress mentality that allows these systems to stay broken, that allows for brutality and suicides of LGBT youth and oppression of women and all these things that we just need to fix. And so, again, it's not that I'm anti religion, but I'm against oppressive ideologies that anesthetize and cause people to fall asleep to the social and cultural problems that are facing us. I apologize for that, but that's how I feel.

Guest [00:47:15] That was awesome. Well, and that just makes me think. I had a great conversation with a good friend of mine who is Mormon, and he's in debate, which I like a lot. And so he's the kind of person you could actually talk about something very personally sensitive, like your religious beliefs. Right. And we had a conversation, and that I think was actually somewhat productive. He. His mind may have been shifted on a few things. And one of the things to your point was that I mentioned was, like, look at the double standard that religion doesn't just encourage, but necessitates. Right. Like when we want to know whether or not the earth is flat or not. Right. Let's look at the evidence. And, you know, hopefully it's pretty clear to most people that the earth isn't really flat. Right. But when it comes to religion, not only do we start with a premise. Right. And then try to fill in the gaps along the way, we say any piece of evidence that backs us up qualifies as proof because it satisfies my personal need for this thing to be true. And that's just, you know, there's an infinite number of examples of that kind of thinking, but it is that kind of thinking that allows religious individuals and institutions to say, yeah, you know, racism, okay, we can have our opinions on that, but at the end of the day, this religion's got to be true, and if it means being racist, go ahead and be racist.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] So instead of starting with the data and then following the data to the conclusions that are most healthy and true and positive for the most amount of people, you start with the religious assumptions that usually were formed in the Bronze Age.

Guest [00:48:43] Right, right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] And if the evidence conflicts with your Bronze Age ideology, then you gotta stick with the religion no matter what.

Guest [00:48:52] Right. And Karl Popper, great thinker of the 1900s, he, like, that's the definition of a pseudoscience as far as he's concerned. Right. Like confirming a belief rather than attempting to disconfirm it. That is the definition of a pseudoscience. And yet this is what religion is.

Olivia Pinson [00:49:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] Or can be.

Guest [00:49:08] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Of course. Okay, so you fall down the rabbit hole and you're. How do you tell her you're done?

Sam Pinson [00:49:17] So.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] Or whatever. Whatever else, keep going with this.

Sam Pinson [00:49:20] Well, I think where we were is we had talked, and I Got to the point where I was done. And we had been having these critical conversations. So she knew that I'm finding problems. And I think that wasn't a surprise. Right.

Sara Pinson [00:49:40] It's hard to remember, but there came

Sam Pinson [00:49:44] a point where I said, I can't testify that I know the church is true anymore.

Sara Pinson [00:49:52] And like, I had said I was fine with that. I was like, okay, go ask to be released. But there was a moment when I said, well, what if you just testified of Christ and you didn't, like, testify of the church and you just testified about Jesus Christ? And there was a look in his eyes, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't think he can't even do that right now.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] That's terrifying for people.

Sara Pinson [00:50:16] Oh, my gosh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Like, don't touch God and Jesus. You know, you can touch Book of Mormon Joseph Smith maybe, but God and Jesus don't touch that.

Sara Pinson [00:50:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Can't touch this.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:50:24] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:50:28] So, yeah. And I was too scared to ask, but I could tell by that look in his eyes that he couldn't even do that. So I was like, okay, go ask to be released.

Sam Pinson [00:50:38] And so I think, if I remember correctly, that was in February 2019.

Sara Pinson [00:50:44] Yeah, I think so.

Sam Pinson [00:50:46] And so no satisfactory resolution. And I really didn't expect one from the stake president. He said, okay, we can do that.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Okay. So was he like, oh, my gosh, I've got an apostate in the works here. A former bishop and a stake High Councilman who's becoming apostate. Do you think the alarm bells went off in his mind last year and did that come out in any way?

Sam Pinson [00:51:16] Oh, yeah, I think, well, like, that someday he would be excommunicating me. I think obviously he wanted to communicate love and reconciliation. And, hey, there are answers. You've known the church is true your whole life. You'll figure this out. He was encouraging, he was kind and wanted to accommodate my continued journey to eventually come back in any way that he could. State conference was coming up in May, and one of my assignments was over technology. And so I had. I still. I didn't want to do anything hurtful or anything. I said, I'll continue to do that part. I'll fulfill that assignment. And then, like, I'm not going to be doing my High council stuff anymore immediately, but I'll keep helping with that. So for a few more months, I did continue, and it was still confidential, I think. So I met with the stake president and I met with my bishop, and they knew. Sarah knew I hadn't told the kids yet and then we get to state conference. Was that about when we told everybody?

Sara Pinson [00:52:43] Oh, no, no, no, no.

Sam Pinson [00:52:44] Or was it before that? A little bit before that.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] You know, one question I have. We haven't talked about them rolling back the November 2015 policy. Do you guys remember when that was rolled back and how you received it or did we talk about it?

Sam Pinson [00:52:57] We haven't specifically talked about it.

John Dehlin [00:52:59] Was that a thing for you guys or not?

Sara Pinson [00:53:00] When was that? That was 2019. But what month was it? I. I remember.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] I think it was spring.

Sara Pinson [00:53:06] Yeah, I think you're right.

Sam Pinson [00:53:08] Of what year?

John Dehlin [00:53:09] Last year?

Olivia Pinson [00:53:09] 2019.

Sara Pinson [00:53:10] March, maybe March.

Sam Pinson [00:53:11] So I was already. I already knew that the church was a fraud at that point. So. Yeah, it was just one more thing. Yeah. This is total.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Another change.

Sam Pinson [00:53:22] It's absolutely. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] How about for you?

Sara Pinson [00:53:24] Oh, for me it was kind of like the temple change, but worse.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] What?

Sara Pinson [00:53:28] Well, because it was like four years ago.

Guest [00:53:33] What?

Sara Pinson [00:53:34] And you're saying they were both revelation and you're. And they're both done in love.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] The policy was a revelation in love and the undoing was a revelation in love.

Sara Pinson [00:53:43] So that's when I was like, yeah, they're. They're, they're doing their best, but they're making it up. They're making it up. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] As they go.

Sara Pinson [00:53:51] Yeah, absolutely. So that was just more validation for what I'd already felt.

Sam Pinson [00:53:55] But yeah. So then certainly. So the stake president had said that I would be like they'd work on finding a replacement. And so I was waiting for that to happen. And it wasn't happening. And it wasn't happening. And it wasn't happening. And then I don't. Did it not happen until stake conference?

Sara Pinson [00:54:16] It didn't. And then one of the counselors in the stake presidency wanted to talk to both of us and maybe. I don't know if it was a last ditch effort to try to keep you, at least have you help with technology in the future because that had been this mammoth project that he had worked on with another person. So I think they were. Could you just do that?

Sam Pinson [00:54:38] They invited me to offer a prayer, if I remember correctly, in stake in one of the meetings and also to meet with Elder Bednar. Yeah. And wait, sue, did you meet with him? I did not.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Why not?

Sam Pinson [00:54:52] I had.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] That's cool.

Sara Pinson [00:54:53] At that time.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] Is it impossible?

Sara Pinson [00:54:55] Go talk to him.

Sam Pinson [00:54:56] It'd be cool my. Because he represents an organization that is lying, has lied to. Like how do you respect that it was. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:55:09] Sometimes people want a chance to like put him on the spot, grill him, prove that they're, you know. You didn't want any of that.

Sam Pinson [00:55:17] Yeah, I had a TV show to watch or something like that. Things to do with my time. I don't need to hear lying words from Elder Bednar.

Sara Pinson [00:55:29] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:55:29] So I declined that. And then finally the release was coming and then it was. It would be kind of out there and no, we. Did we tell the kids before that because I wasn't going to church anymore.

Sara Pinson [00:55:41] Yeah, we must have told them and

Sam Pinson [00:55:42] so it must have been.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Was there. Did you tell the kids? Yeah, we're not. Dad's not going to church anymore.

Sam Pinson [00:55:48] Yeah. We gathered the family all around. Maybe you want to share your experience there?

Guest [00:55:53] Go ahead.

Olivia Pinson [00:55:54] Okay. Well, there were. I wasn't surprised. And it wasn't that I saw it coming, but it was that, like when he said that, I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, we haven't had family home evening in months. We haven't really been saying prayers. We haven't been doing scriptures. I noticed you guys just talked about things differently. I don't really remember anything specific. This was the end of the school year, junior year, and so I was kind of self absorbed and I had a lot going on, so I wasn't. I don't think I saw it coming. But yeah, when he saw it, I wasn't surprised at all. And the first thing that I thought was how freaking ironic because just my entire journey with the church had been sort of this resentment of like, I can't speak up, I feel silenced. I was caught in a cycle of dishonesty because I wanted to be honest, but I wasn't. And like to this day I really wish that I had been. Instead, I just hid a lot of things. And so when dad was all of a sudden so honest with us, it was refreshing but also a little bit unnerving because it was just a lot to process.

Sara Pinson [00:57:05] Well, and I don't want to speak for you so you can tell me if I'm wrong, but some resentment. Like, why does he get to be open and honest? Why does he get to not be silenced where I felt like I was silenced, you know, maybe you were feeling that way.

Olivia Pinson [00:57:22] Absolutely. And yes, I definitely felt that way. And I also, I kept. I continue to go to church partly because of our. I'm the oldest of five and besides Sam, like the younger three siblings, especially Emily, I'd say like really struggled with it because she was caught in that divide of everything I've been told my whole life is all sudden Being told to me to be false. And so I felt like I needed to be there for them and I didn't need to be there for you, but I felt like I did a little bit. Because you were really struggling with it too.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:58:01] Yeah, sure.

Olivia Pinson [00:58:01] But at the same time, it was like painful for me to be there because I just wanted to get out of everything.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] So just to be clear, you were worried about your mom and you were wanting to be a support as a child to your mom?

Olivia Pinson [00:58:15] Yeah, because I saw. Well, I saw the emotional toll that it was taking on her.

John Dehlin [00:58:19] What did it look like from your perspective?

Olivia Pinson [00:58:22] She was very pensive all the time, and she'd cry sometimes, but I don't really know how to phrase it. I mean, it was hard for her because her entire worldview was crashing down. Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:58:41] that's sweet that you want to be there for your mom.

Guest [00:58:46] Yeah, my side of things is a little bit less sweet. I had grown accustomed up until that point to being, I think, a relatively reasonable, you know, 15 year old. So who knows how reasonable really, but, you know, relatively reasonable and not one to allow emotions to dictate my actions. Certainly not for a sustained period of time. But it was. I would be lying to say that anything but deep seated resentment and anger was what arose from that. Partly because, and I'm a bit surprised by this, I didn't see it coming at all. It was totally out of the blue for me. And, you know, I was obviously, despite my exploration of ideas and philosophy, 100% in overall. And so, yeah, for months there was resentment, obviously against dad.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] You're mad at dad?

Guest [00:59:44] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and. And the way that it was presented as I saw it was like dad was like, you know, see ya. Like, the church and I are kaputz now.

John Dehlin [00:59:54] And you were still believing at the time.

Guest [00:59:56] Here's the thing. So, yes, the. The easy answer is yes, but not really because what happened there was just like all consuming, like, holy crap. You know, first like shock and then trauma and then resentment, you know, anger. Like red hot. Just like, this is messed up. Like, how could my life be flipped upside down like this? And then, you know, like a resentment that may have lasted for a while, unfortunately, but at the end of the day, I think that the very fact that that happened like that was it for me in regards to my belief of the church, because as I think that something I've noticed with you guys describing your apostasies is that the realization of the possibility of invalid, that was the crux of what made it Possible to leave the church. And that was really my thing is in the most brutal, like, traumatic, instantaneous way, you know, my dad, who was bishop and who was and is my role model, you know, saying, you know, out of the blue, I don't believe in the church anymore. I'm done with it. You know, like establishing this whole new order at home. That for me was just like the snapping of the fingers. Now I not only realized, but was living the possibility of the church not being true. And again, I think especially with being taught to be reasonable and rational and being exposed to philosophical ideas after the resentment died down and I wasn't like, rage attending church, it was pretty simple for me to just say, yeah, none of this stands in the way I now see the world.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] So this is pretty intense. Like, my kids went through this. Like, it's one thing to go through a faith crisis and all that that represents. It's another thing to do it in an Idaho or Utah town that's small where, what, 80 plus percent of the people are Mormon. And like, all your friendships, you know, it's hard enough to be a teen. Try being a teen in a heavily Mormon town when you and your whole family are apostatizing. What was that like for you guys?

Guest [01:02:01] Well, if I had to just bring up one experience to summarize what that was like, I didn't my friends about my dad or my own falling away and leaving of the church for quite a while. And the first interaction I had with one of my closer friends who themselves was Mormon, I just, you know, told her, I was like, hey, you know, like, I should tell you this since we're close, blah, blah, blah, I'm not, I'm not. I don't believe in the church anymore. And the first thing out of her mouth was, have you read the Book of Mormon? And that was. Was like another reinforcing layer onto the idea of like, holy crap. Not only is it possible for this not to be true, but like, there is a layer of like, well, I can't. Like my friend being assuming or going to the idea that I hadn't even read the Book of Mormon. And that's why, you know, I was falling away. Like, the fact that that was me just months or weeks ago, that really blew my mind and helped to solidify the idea of, you know, maybe there are problems with this religion. And so that was. That basically encapsulates what my experience was in telling people I knew about that.

Family Members React to Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:03:11] For you, Olivia, what was it like having your family lose their faith in Ammon Idaho.

Olivia Pinson [01:03:17] Well, since I had already lost. Yeah, since I had already lost my faith, you know, at least for the most part. It was. A lot of. It was a lot of resurfacing of, like, past, like, feelings and things because you guys were so honest about your experiences, which I really was proud of you for. Like, you were. I mean, you found freedom, like sharing things on Facebook or just having discussions, and you were, like, kind and honest and open about it. And I. I felt like I've never been able to do this. And then it was like, why can't I just be braver? Like, why can't I just be more honest? But at the same time, it was like I was never allowed that room. And so it. I think it. I just learned a lot about being honest to myself and others. I remember. I just remember honesty being on my mind a lot. And like, who am I really and who do I want to show to the world? Which was really freeing again. But, yeah, there was still that resentment of, like, why do you guys get to be so free and open about this? And for years I didn't feel like I could do that. Or when I tried, I was so pushed back against. But like, no, I've forgiven you. Don't worry.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] What.

Sara Pinson [01:04:38] And it's different to be 30 or 40 or to be a child and to not even maybe have the words to conceptualize your experience or to have no rights. Right. You know, that's hard.

Olivia Pinson [01:04:52] Yeah. One thing I tried to say at the. When you were in that meeting, the excommunication meeting, was you wouldn't. You wouldn't call like, 14 year old and what's even the word? Apostate? Right. Like, even though I didn't. Well, like, but they'll call you an apostate because you were in a position of power and you. I had many of the same questions that you guys did as a kid, but it's easier to control children and it's easier to silence them. And.

Sara Pinson [01:05:31] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [01:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] What's that like for you guys to know that kind of your daughter, your teenage daughter kind of figured it out before you did as adults?

Sam Pinson [01:05:41] Well, it humbling because we weren't on the same page. It created conflict in the family and in our relationship. We had a. Specifically between the two of us, you

John Dehlin [01:05:59] guys were fighting some strong personalities.

Sam Pinson [01:06:00] Oh, yeah.

Olivia Pinson [01:06:01] I mean, we're both very strong, stubborn and very strong opinions about things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] So you have conflict.

Sam Pinson [01:06:08] Yeah. Our relationship generally was not good.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:06:13] And

Sam Pinson [01:06:16] I take responsibility for my role in that. It was, for me, largely motivated by the worldview that did not accept her.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] The patriarchal, homophobic.

Sam Pinson [01:06:31] Both of those. Yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:06:32] So not accepting her to have questions too.

Sam Pinson [01:06:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Authoritarian.

Sam Pinson [01:06:38] Those three things, like, I know the church is true, and there is no other possibility. So figure it out. That the impatience, the homophobia, and the I preside. I think there were elements of all of that.

Olivia Pinson [01:06:56] I have a story. Do you mind if I tell a story?

Sam Pinson [01:06:59] I'm just gonna go out for this. I don't know what story she's gonna tell.

Olivia Pinson [01:07:02] It's not anything, really. It's just like, after. Soon after you told us you were leaving the church, I remember we were having dinner, and I called on Kevin to say the prayer, and he said the prayer. And then immediately after, there was this backlash of, like, what did you just do? And I knew, and I was in

Sara Pinson [01:07:22] the bathroom or taking a shower or something, or I was gone. Okay.

Olivia Pinson [01:07:26] But I knew that it was deeper than. Because the way you explained it was, I'm the head of the house. Like, I call and people say prayers, and I don't want prayers at dinner. And so I understood that, but I knew there was something deeper where you didn't. You didn't. Like, you didn't want the prayer. It wasn't just that you were head of the house.

Sara Pinson [01:07:43] So that was that head of the house idea. It took some time to dismantle. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:07:50] So post Mormon men can still be patriarchal.

Sara Pinson [01:07:54] Yes, but he was.

Sam Pinson [01:07:56] I don't want to talk about that episode. I mean, that incident for the next hour, there was a lot that we could talk about there.

Guest [01:08:03] Absolutely. And at the end of the day, I mean, it's depressing to me. I mean, for example, I think we've always had a pretty good relationship. Olivia and I have been sort of case studies of polar opposites in terms of our family. I guess I feel like we've pretty much always had a great relationship. And so part of the shock of the whole religious, you know, exodus thing was having intensely negative interactions with you. That wasn't something I was used to. And so then, you know, when you have that added on top of the shock and trauma and resentment, and then when, you know, we're attending church and then you're like, as you did getting up in sacrament, meaning when you hear something like crying, like, and I'm just sitting there, like, dying inside. You know, it's those levels of, like, the pain and the. The surprise negativity and all these things that, yeah, it breaks people and it breaks families. And that's why I think that it's very often that people who say religious organizations, particularly the church, like, they're. They may have problems, but they do good things. There's truth to that. I think it's particularly true that religions do good for the people who they work for. Right. I think this idea has been mentioned. And for the people who they don't work for, whether Olivia or Apost, like, then it's freaking not good. Right. That's the general idea.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] So. Well said. So what was the conflict? Like? You're finding truth. Why are you having conflict with your family?

Sam Pinson [01:09:40] Well, so I stopped going and I didn't. I told them all the things that I had learned, and that was kind of the end of it. Sarah and the kids were still gonna go to church.

Sara Pinson [01:09:54] You didn't tell them everything you said? I found out about the disavowal, and it's made me question the prophets. And he didn't, like, barf everything from the CES letter on to them. But.

Sam Pinson [01:10:08] Yeah, but they knew. I don't believe anymore and I'm not going to church anymore. There were tears and there was just

Sara Pinson [01:10:16] tension from that moment on.

Sam Pinson [01:10:18] Yeah. So they kept on going to church. I stayed home. As Sam said, that damaged our relationship from my point of view. I lost all credibility. All credibility in regards to anything spiritual, moral, or anything like that. I was no longer the person to talk to, and I had no business talking to him about any of that.

John Dehlin [01:10:42] Teens can be fierce.

Sara Pinson [01:10:43] Yeah. Well. And he said as much.

Sam Pinson [01:10:46] He told me that when it comes

Sara Pinson [01:10:48] to spiritual matters, you are not an authority for me to listen. Like you said as much, which.

Guest [01:10:57] Yeah, totally valid.

Sara Pinson [01:10:58] That's what you were.

Guest [01:11:00] Good times all around. Thank you to the church for all that. Yeah, absolutely. There was conflict along those lines. Something I will say is that there was only that level of toxicity in regards to credibility, which I don't think extended quite as far as you may think, but certainly in, like, explicitly spiritual and moral fashions, obviously. Like, how could that credibility not be, at the very least challenged? Right. And so. But even given that, I'm totally certain that it wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad if, you know, a large part of the image of you as a father, as the head of a house, as the bishop, as a spiritual and moral leader, especially for a son. Right. I mean, that image being not just changed, but totally shattered, like that is, again, the sort of the same. The same reason that there was resentment, I think, led to there being that extreme loss of credibility.

Sam Pinson [01:12:00] Yeah. I don't fault you for Your response at all, I understand. Totally get it.

Sara Pinson [01:12:08] So I was taking the kids to church. We didn't. We let them choose if they wanted to come. It would change every week who was coming. Our third child, our daughter Emily is. I think it hurt her the hardest emotionally. She would cry at school, she would cry at church because all her life her dad had taught her this is the truth. And then for him to go back on it. And she loved the church and she's like this beautifully social butterfly everybody loves. And so she loved the people, she loved church. And I think it was the hardest for her. So it got to the point where it was just me and Sam and Emily, pretty much our youngest two, they

John Dehlin [01:13:07] drop off pretty quick. If they haven't been indoctrinated really fully, they're like, why would I go to this thing? They get it really quickly. Right.

Sara Pinson [01:13:16] Well. And even our 11, is he 12 now. He just turned out our 12 year old, Kevin. He.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] I never liked it anyway. That's awful what they say.

Sara Pinson [01:13:27] Yeah, he. Well, he didn't say that, but he said the prophets could be wrong in the, like, he's really a deep thinker and he really, he, he stopped going because he didn't believe it anymore. Our youngest was just like, I don't want to go. But. But yeah, Kevin, even our 12 year old, he was 11 at the time. Or 10.

John Dehlin [01:13:49] Whoa.

Sara Pinson [01:13:50] Yeah, he'd have been 10.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] He did the math right?

Sara Pinson [01:13:53] Yeah, he's very logical and, and has a scientific mind. So yeah, I didn't. He stopped going. So yeah, it was just me and Sam and Emily for quite a while.

Sam Pinson [01:14:08] And may I interject there. So in terms of conflict, nobody was really compelling anything. But Sunday morning, Sarah would go in and say, hey, time to get up and go to church. Not, not with a thou shalt go to church. But hey, now is the time to get up to. Now is the time to do it. And they had concluded they didn't want to go. And so there would be tears and whining and everything. And I went into the room and said, if you don't want to go, you don't have to. I didn't tell them not to. I just let them know that is an option for you. And then that was that for them. They both said, yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:14:49] And I was honestly fine with whatever the kids wanted. But it was hard going to church and for so many reasons, but one of which, like, what kids are here today? Like, what primary teacher is missing their kid today? And looking at me like, is it my fault or is. We know through the grapevine that there was discussion that Sam was, like, poisoning our children and concerns of ward members that that was happening and.

Olivia Pinson [01:15:23] Which is. Was.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] So the word gets out.

Sam Pinson [01:15:26] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:15:27] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:15:27] Well, I wasn't attending anymore, and I.

Sara Pinson [01:15:29] Well, the word got out because I got you announced. But go ahead and say what you were gonna say.

Olivia Pinson [01:15:33] I just wanted to say, like, it was weird for me because you didn't poison me. You know what I mean? Like, you didn't even influence me, really. Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] How did she beat you?

Sam Pinson [01:15:43] Right.

Olivia Pinson [01:15:46] I don't like thinking about it like that, but, yeah, I think some people, especially older people in our ward, like, didn't notice that I didn't want to be there. Right. I kept going to church. And so.

Guest [01:15:58] Yeah. Well. And can I just say, hearing you guys recount the changes in parental behavior. Right. In terms of, like, thou shalt go to church, thou devil, versus, you know,

Sara Pinson [01:16:11] we never talk like that.

Guest [01:16:13] General gist of things, though, like, going to church is part of being.

Sara Pinson [01:16:18] It was an expectation.

Guest [01:16:19] An expectation. That's much better way of phrasing it. I'll just say it sounds like you guys could write, like, a parenting guide to Mormon parents and just say, leave the church. Like, that's the. The first step to enabling healthier families, if anything.

Sara Pinson [01:16:36] Well, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:16:37] Sure.

Guest [01:16:38] That's all a matter of experience.

Sam Pinson [01:16:40] That's the way it worked for me. Right.

Olivia Pinson [01:16:43] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:16:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] But. But, you know, it's gotta be a big thing emotionally for you to have been bishop for four and a half years in this Idaho town, and then within two years of not being bishop, you. You don't go anymore. You're taking a couple of your kids alone, and then the gossip rumor mill starts buzzing. That's an intense. That's an emotionally intense environment, is it not?

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:17:08] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:17:09] Yeah. And the ward members were amazing. I heard a few things through the grapevine from friends, but personally, I didn't, like, directly. I didn't experience any judgment, any gossip, any. I don't know any. It was just. They were really great overall, so I don't have complaints. It's funny. You hear all the time, the church is perfect. The members aren't. But the more I go into it, the more I'm like, I love the members. The church is not great. You know, there's a lot about that system that is harmful. The people are good.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] Okay.

Sara Pinson [01:17:50] Generally. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:17:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] So what happened?

Sara Pinson [01:17:54] Well, so we had state conference in May. I went to girls camp in June, and that was like a week of hell because I Nobody knew. Well, I didn't know that people knew, but some people did know that Sam had left. So it's still very much a secret. And I go to camp. I'm very much in my head. It was really hard to be present and be with the girls. And then there's all these couples, right? Because there's young women leaders. And then their husbands will be there for priesthood, or the bishops come up and they're there with their wives. And I just felt like everywhere I looked, I saw these eternal, happy, in the church Mormon couples. And I'm not really a jealous person or like a envious person, but for the first time in my life, I was just look at these people and just hate on them that they had what I didn't have anymore and that they were just happy and that was all crushed for me and just all lost. So that was a really hard week. There was, you know, you gather at the end for testimony, meeting around the fire, and there was a young girl who said that we'd gone on a hike, and she said, I saw this tree that was all bent and twisted at the bottom, and it didn't look like a good tree. But then as my eyes went up the tree, I saw it straighten up and it became a beautiful tree. And she, as she shared that, I just felt like, that's me right now. I'm that twisted tree that looks broken. I feel broken. But this isn't the end of my story. And so that was a really comforting moment. And then when camp was over, they asked the camp leaders to talk in church. And I decided that I was going to tell everyone over the pulpit that Sam had left the church because going to church was torture. And having people make comments like, hey, we miss seeing Sam around and them not knowing. Right? So when people would say that, I would say, yeah, he actually decided not to come to church anymore. I would just tell him because there's like, no point in hiding things. To me at least there's no point in hiding things. There's no point in brushing under the rug. So I would just be open with people.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] But there's this super weird dynamic where they won't come and talk to you directly, but they'll say, we miss him.

Guest [01:20:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] And they probably live like three doors down or across the street, but they don't want to talk to you because they don't want to become infected, but they notice you're not there. And so there's just this weird, like, where is he? Why isn't he here? And so you're always having to field questions and you don't know, do I be honest and direct or not? Do I want to tell his secrets or not? Do I want the ward to know? It's a really weird, awkward time.

Sara Pinson [01:21:08] Right. Well. And a lot of people didn't. They knew he wasn't there, but they thought he was still going to the Spanish branch. They didn't even know. And so. Yeah. And if they had questions like, why I would be like, just go talk to Sam.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] Yeah, that's what Margi did.

Sara Pinson [01:21:22] You.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] It's not my job to answer for him.

Sara Pinson [01:21:25] It's not my burden. But yeah, so I got up and I shared this story that this sweet young woman had shared a testimony meeting and how that had meant so much to me because Sam had recently decided to leave the church and I felt broken and I felt like we were having to reevaluate our future together. And, you know, you think of going on a mission, we're going to do all these things. And so I kind of announced it to the ward.

John Dehlin [01:21:54] That's weird. That's not normal.

Sara Pinson [01:21:57] Right. And later I found out the bishop was like. That shocked me. And he said it in a way that I don't think he was pleased that I had done that, but.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Because they prefer you just go quietly, right?

Sam Pinson [01:22:10] Yep, yep.

Sara Pinson [01:22:11] Absolutely.

Guest [01:22:13] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:22:14] So anyway, well.

Guest [01:22:15] And. And it was interesting too there when

John Dehlin [01:22:19] she told a word.

Guest [01:22:20] Oh yeah. Frankly, I don't remember much of the sacrament. Sacrament means after that point it was kind of just a haze of anger and pain and confusion. Like, seriously, it was just like this emotional potluck of, you know, hell, ironically. But it was interesting at that point the two hour church change had been made and yeah, that change had been made. So, you know, it was that. And then it was either Sunday school or young men's. And as you know, after I got over the initial, like, well, this is crap. It was like Sunday school, you know, I'm just hanging out with the young women who are great in our ward because I'm so, you know, I want to have a good time, socially speaking, but I'm not there for Sunday school anymore. And then a young men's. I would actually. And this I regret somewhat. I think I became pretty like cavalier and, you know, maybe not sarcastic, but I don't think I hid my lack of seriousness in regard to doctrine very well. And I would ask questions like, well, you know, how do you know like that personal revelation is from God, like inside of school and in other situations. And then I'd get an answer, and I wouldn't ever pursue it all the way. But I know, like, that's just. That's bull. You know, like, with all due respect, like. Like, in my mind, I was like, with all this, you know, emotional stuff going on, I'm also like, that's just nonsense. And frankly, you know, when you see an adult in a teaching position, you give them authority usually, right? You think, well, you know, if nothing else, you should. You should be using your position to try to actually, you know, be reasonable and encourage reason. At least that's what I was taught by my parents. And so, like, getting some nonsensical, some obviously nonsensical answer that would have satisfied me months ago, but did not anymore. That rapidly led to me becoming totally disillusioned and then not touching the church again.

Sam Pinson [01:24:19] So another thing that I remember, that was part of this period at that final stake conference where I was still doing technology, hadn't been attending church for a long time. So all this is happening in our family. The stake president told a story about a. I think it was a husband whose wife gave him an ultimatum, like she was leaving the church and told him, it's me or the church. You choose. And so had sought counsel. And the counsel was, you keep your covenants. So that's what we're hearing in the context of our new reality. And we would have conversations where I would say, she would express the idea that, I feel like everything's gonna be okay. Like, still believing somewhat, like, we're gonna

Sara Pinson [01:25:16] be together, we're gonna be together something after this, we're gonna be together. Like, I just don't buy all that.

Sam Pinson [01:25:22] And I. Not to be contrary, but I would point out, that's great, but you're making up your own religion. That's not what the church teaches.

Sara Pinson [01:25:32] Which I was.

Sam Pinson [01:25:34] Yeah. And so we were going through that trauma. Anything else in that period to. In the period before you.

Sara Pinson [01:25:50] Before I left, going, yeah. Well, I did have a. So there was one week that I think was pivotal for me where my heart had already left, like, I was talking about. And I. But I was praying to know if it was okay to leave. Like, I just need to know that it's okay because this is really what I want. And I. I was at school and I went into, like, the common room, I guess, and I was microwaving my lunch. And one of the. I was a second year grad student at this point. One of the first years, they have to interview the second years to talk about, like, an ethical dilemma. That they faced. And so she just grabbed me and said, hey, can I interview you pretty quick? And I said, sure. I don't have class for a little bit. So we went and she interviewed me about an ethical dilemma I'd faced. And then we got chatting, and we're both older. Like, we have. We both had five kids, so we were both a little older in the program. We weren't, you know, like, a lot of the younger college kids, and we'd both been at BYU at the same years. Like, we just a lot uncommon. And so I was like, hey, just so you're aware, like, this counseling program can be pretty tough on

Olivia Pinson [01:27:18] being lds.

Sara Pinson [01:27:19] And she said, oh, I left the church. I was like, what? Like, really? So I kind of picked her brain for just a few minutes, but it opened my mind to the idea that I could leave the church and be happy and healthy and have a good family. Like, I could see that she did. And so to me, I was like, oh, well, that's an answer to my prayer. I can leave and it'll be fine. And then that Sunday, we were in church, and the stake president came and visited our ward. And he handed Sam a note while he was passing the sacrament that said, can I meet with you after? So I went and. Yeah, met with him after.

Guest [01:28:00] It was. I was supposed to give it to Mom. She was meeting him, not me.

John Dehlin [01:28:04] Okay.

Sara Pinson [01:28:04] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that.

John Dehlin [01:28:06] Okay.

Sara Pinson [01:28:09] So I met with the stake president, and he said he felt like he should come to our ward that day, and he knows it was for me, that God sent him for me. And I said, okay. And I said, so can I. Can I just share something with you? Like, I've been praying to know if it's okay if I leave the church. And I met this wonderful girl, and then you showed up. I feel like I'm getting mixed messages. Like, what are your thoughts? And he said, go with me. No, actually, it was a really. It was a good meeting with him, actually, based on other things I'd heard in talks, I didn't expect him to be as compassionate. And anyway, that sounds really bad, but it was a really good meeting. And he said, maybe Heavenly Father just wants you to have all the information on both sides. I was like, yeah, I think you're right. And he said, don't take that as I'm giving you permission to leave the church. And I said, well, that's not yours to give. And, yeah, that was one of my super honest, not tactful moments. But yeah, that was a pivotal moment where I was like, hey, maybe God's okay with whatever I do, and what I want is to leave. But I still went for a couple months after that for the kids. I thought the kids wanted to go, and I was going for them.

John Dehlin [01:29:40] It seems like almost a moment. You have been packing down your own voice and your own power for so long. That almost sounds like a cinematic moment of you claiming your own voice and power.

Sara Pinson [01:29:54] Absolutely. And I haven't stopped since, uh. Oh, yeah, it's been wonderful.

Guest [01:30:03] Well, something that just moves me about the story with you and the other mom of five is like, just consider the difference in terms of the freedom of your minds, the freedom of your morals, the freedom of your actions and choices and your very lives. Consider the difference in. I mean, you brought up the word authoritarian. I think that's perfect because, you know, you're obviously in this transitioning phase in that instance. But the very fact that religion was there to make it so that at this point, extracting yourself from it is not only painful, but also, like, it becomes so patently obvious, like, how crippling. And again, restrictive religion is on the mind. And, I mean, if you don't have mental freedom, like, if you can't even comprehend the idea that your belief system is flawed or let alone completely wrong, then, like, you know, it's hard to imagine what could be more difficult to overcome, mentally speaking, than that. And so that's something that makes me. Every time you share, I think you've. I've heard that story before. And every time that you share something like that, it just makes me. It re. Emphasizes in my mind how. How effective religion is at paralyzing the mind of the people it involves.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] Okay, so you kept going for a few months.

Sara Pinson [01:31:33] Yeah. And then at Christmas, so Christmas 2019, we took a. A trip to Jackson Hole just for the weekend, and we started talking about religion, just in general, basically. We were talking about Islam a lot, I think, or Muslims. And Sam, one of the kids that was still going to church with me, that I was really thinking he was all in and I needed to keep going for him. Right. I had no clue. You weren't. We were discussing religion and how it shifts its standards. And I was like, wait a minute. He's acknowledging this about religion. And I think after discussing it more and then come to find out he had read the CES letter, and I didn't know that. So then I was like, I'm not going back. Like, if Sam doesn't want to go, I'm Done. Because it was really just. And for Emily, too. But

John Dehlin [01:32:36] that was you.

Guest [01:32:38] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:32:38] Yeah, Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] What do you mean you found out over Christmas that Sam had read the

Sara Pinson [01:32:45] CES, Sam Jr had read the CES letter without us knowing?

John Dehlin [01:32:51] What was that like?

Guest [01:32:52] Sam Jr this just shows how immature I was throughout this whole thing. Not only had I investigated, I had already had my mind made up basically before I read the CES letter, but not only had I done that without revealing that because of baseless resentment. Right. It was also true that I never actually convinced myself of, like, I. It. Okay, let me just not. I'm trying not to get ahead of myself. I'd never actually convinced myself of anything, Any irrationality or any lie in defense of the church. Meaning that I think, and this is something that I didn't realize until relatively recently is like, all of the priming that I think was done in terms of my freedom of thought and my ability to have ideas that were contrary to my belief system. Like, all of that just allowed it. So that as soon as the red hot anger and resentment was done, it was like I could not deny any longer that there was no basis for me to believe or act like I believed in the church. And so then actually we had some conversations which were always very negative, which progressively, like, it wasn't even me. I was never convinced of the arguments I made in favor of the church, but it was like me us talking through the process of me realizing, well, you know, it's true. Because, like, well, if the Book of Mormon is true, then the church is true, which I think itself is illogical. But even if that were true, you know, we have conversations and then I think about it, you know, like, maybe I'm raging in the conversation, or I'm just like, you know, being ignorant and stubborn. And then I think about it for minutes or hours afterwards, and I don't even have to, like, challenge the idea. It's just patently obvious this isn't true. So, yeah, like at the cabin, you know, that was just me arising from the bubble of immaturity where I was like, you know, talking about Islam versus Christianity. I think what I said specifically there was like. Like, you know, a lot of Christian individuals criticize Islam for being, like, radical on the average and all this stuff. And I just pointed out the fact that, well, you know, even if we can say that Islam is, like, way more radical than Christianity on average, like, well, so what? In terms of, like, the doctrine, Christianity has in the past been just as bad as Islam has ever been, and so Then I think you guys hearing like that perspective on religion opened that up. But yeah, it was, it was great immaturity on my part that made that event even.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] What was it like to read the CES letter?

Guest [01:35:21] It was, as a teen, it wasn't even like the last nail in the coffin. It was like the coffin being dropped into the grave. I mean, it was like I looked at it and I kind of had the same intuition, like, you know, this is game over. The last, the less pathetic attempts at resistance will be dead if I read this book. And so I just opened it up like late at night and I was like, yeah, okay, cool. Like it's over. But this is, it's nice to know, to have some more facts surrounding why the church is a fraud.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] Okay.

Sam Pinson [01:35:55] So there had been, there had still been this wedge in the relationship, this division in the family. They're still going. Most of us are not. And after that conversation, that was like the beginning of, things are getting better from here on out.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] So you said you're not going. If he doesn't need to go, you don't need to go. Is that right?

Sara Pinson [01:36:18] Yeah. And I think a couple weeks I took Emily still by herself, which I know sounds harsh, but everyone loves her. She has so many friends she could sit with. And I couldn't do it anymore. I was, I mean, those seven months, I think I would come home crying every Sunday. I, what was so hard about

Guest [01:36:42] didn't

Sara Pinson [01:36:42] align with my values anymore. So I would hear things and I'd be like, that was shame inducing. Or I don't agree with that teaching.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] Or that's not true.

Sara Pinson [01:36:52] Or that's not true. Yeah. And I just had, I've never had a full on panic attack because I know it's more intense than what I felt, but I was having anxiety, pretty extreme where I'd have to get up and leave the chapel. I would generally go to sacrament meeting and then I would go and sit in the dark cultural hall and just wait for the kids to be done. I couldn't, like, I'm not really an anxious person and I, I just couldn't. Couldn't do it. So. Yeah, so at that point I couldn't even do it to take Emily. I just would drop her off. But that only happened for a few more weeks.

Sam Pinson [01:37:42] And I think her friends like the social aspect of it for her at that point, that's what mattered and that's what she. That was the last thing for her to let go of.

Sara Pinson [01:37:54] Yeah.

Guest [01:37:55] Yeah. And I apologize for keeping you going to Sacrament meeting, even for those last two months.

Sara Pinson [01:38:04] It wasn't that I was forced. It was that I wanted to do that for my kids. It's a mom thing. So.

Sam Pinson [01:38:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:13] So by the end of last year, you guys are kind of all done.

Sam Pinson [01:38:16] Yeah.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:38:38] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to you Listen, Jo. Your hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard

Sara Pinson [01:39:42] Tis

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:39:43] not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage Take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have stare tell it oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through Happy day All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared Again to see the saints there is I will make this chorus well oh, all is well all is well all is well all is well all is well oh, all is well Will.

Part 4 of 7 · Ep. 1324

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:00] One.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:20] Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

Sam Pinson [00:00:35] So at some point, we have friends who continue to be in the church. We're not in the church or not attending anymore. And we can have this elephant in the relationship unspoken of. Or we can talk about it. And I didn't want to have elephants, so we went out to lunch or dinner. We met with several couples separately who are our friends. And I wanted to explain. Hey, this is where I am. This is what happened. My intent was not to change their mind. It was just to explain myself briefly. If they want to have a conversation about anything, I welcome it. And then at least they'll understand. What's up with Sam now? And we had varying.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] What's up with Bishop?

Sam Pinson [00:01:33] Yeah, yeah. We had varying responses from people. Some people not interested in hearing anything about it. Some people very willing to listen and hear. And one thing that I observed in these discussions with friends and just at this point, when I'm bringing up issues that I had never learned about, and I recognize that there are members of the church who do learn about these things, and they continue to believe and they continue to attend. And I seriously wanted to understand that. I don't understand. How do you look at this issue or that issue? So help me understand that. And so I'd have these conversations with people. And what I learned, at least from some people, there's this level of knowledge where you're ignorant. I was in the relatively ignorant category. And a level of knowledge above which you. You either leave the church or you become nuanced. And by nuanced, I mean, these people would explain to me what doctrine is or what it isn't. And their nuanced view is not what the Church teaches. So they stay in the church and they believe the church while simultaneously holding beliefs that contradict the most basic teachings of the church. Like they have some kind of special knowledge that the brethren aren't teaching us. And I don't know. I had already made up my mind that the church was a fraud. But that was just also part of me understanding that not everybody is ignorant of these things. Some people have learned about these things, and they were willing to go places, I guess, logically, mentally, that I just couldn't follow.

Olivia Pinson [00:03:43] Well, and at that point, it seems, I mean, obviously integrated within religious belief is. Right. Like the desperate desire for stability in your worldview and in your mindset. And that's something we all share. Right. No one's really free from that, which is one reason why it's so difficult to break free of the church itself. But I think that part of the issue of people developing nuanced perspectives is, you know, at some point it becomes more, even if it's subconscious, it becomes more about maintaining the worldview than actually specifically the belief in the church. Right? Because, yeah, if you have a belief that's contradictory to the church's doctrines, but you say, you know, the men are fallible or whatnot, obviously people have their different reasons for doing these things and believing these things. And I'm not going to, like, generalize and say that all people have one reason for doing something. But it seems that it's much easier for the sort of animalistic brain to take over and say, we're just defending our territory right now. Like, our mindset cannot and must not be changed. That's what's being defended here. And that's why we're going to come up with an explanation, no matter the contradiction to the very thing being supposedly defended.

Sara Pinson [00:04:53] Just really quick, I think my issue with staying in the church with a nuanced view is that people who do this do it for themselves. Because, like, we've already discussed, the church works for some people and it really doesn't work for others. You know, it doesn't work for a lot of LGBTQ youth, for instance. And so, like, it's just a very limited perspective to, like, kind of choose and pick aspects of religion while not really trying to shoot for change within religion because it suits you.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] You know, it's kind of a position of privilege. A lot of the nuanced, liberal, progressive Mormons that stay in, you know, they're probably not super feminist or not super LGBT affirming or they don't have a close family member that's whose life might be at stake, or they get money from their relationships in the church or status and it's like, yeah, well, you know, okay, it's not true, but, like, it's good for my business, it's good for clients. I don't want to make my parents sad. It's not killing my kids. It's not killing me. It's working for me. But at the same time, I'm always torn because that's most religions, most normal, non high demand religions. Catholicism. I've got friends here in Salt Lake City who are raised Catholic, they're atheist, they practice birth control, they believe women should be priests. They hate the pedophilia in the Catholic Church, but they send their kids to Catholics Catholic schools because it's a good education and they Sing in the choir because it's good for their brains and it's fun and they've got a social group, but they think the Pope's full of crap and they don't think the Catholic Church is the one true church and they're atheists and the priests don't care. And so like I'm split because that's like so many world religions today and Mormonism is clearly moving in that direction. So there's a degree to which that's fine. Like, just like. And you know, when we started off Mormon stories, we did this thing about stages of faith with James Fowler, which is there's stage three, orthodox, binary, worldview, literalistic. You know, James Fowler talks about this. There's that mindset. Then you go through the dark night of the soul, which is stage four. And then you can reassemble a more literalist, non literal, metaphorical, symbolic, progressive worldview as a stage five religious person. And you can coexist with the stage three people, but you just engage at the church on a bit of a more privileged, higher level where you take the good, leave the bad, you don't take it all seriously. And the scriptures are metaphor and symbolic and the leaders are just doing the best they can. And in a way I'm circling back to questions I've already asked you, which is like, I think on some level there's nothing wrong with that, but then on some level it's only going to work for some people and I'm going to get the sense that you're going to tell me that wasn't an option for you.

Sam Pinson [00:07:59] Yeah, so like I said, for me it was all about the truth.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] The truth mattered.

Sam Pinson [00:08:04] The truth mattered to me. And when I said nuanced, I didn't really even mean what you described there. I mean like a full on true believer who has an understanding of doctrine that is not taught, like he understands doctrine in a way that allows him to be a full on believer that nobody else in his ward, it's not just me, it's like this is not how members of the church interpret what's taught. It's not Mormonism, it's not what's taught. Going back to what I was saying before, you want to have it both ways. They're just doing their best while simultaneously they say we always get it right, you always have to obey. But they have this nuanced view as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] This goes back to Festinger and cognitive dissonance theory. If your beliefs are different from your behavior and you've got to figure out A way to square it all. You're going to get religious people that adopt their theology so that they can stay active in the church so they don't have to live with the cognitive dissonance. And the truth is, the church, I think, doesn't care as long as you're paying your tithing, attending, serving. They don't care what's going on between your ears as long as you're not disturbing people, spreading the virus. And this is probably, I'd say a third of active Mormons don't believe in doctrine and Covenants 132, don't believe in polygamy, don't care about the afterlife. And you know, my mom's this way. She's just like, you're going to be at the afterlife. I'm like, I'm excommunicated. She's like, right, what do they know? She goes to church and she's active and it's totally fine. But I'm like, well, like, is the Book of Mormon literal? She's like, I don't care. I'm like, what do you mean you don't care? She's like, I don't care. Yeah, like Book of Mormon. It's just scripture. And, you know, and she's got her own theology. She sees the scriptures, but she's still a believer. She still believes in God, she believes in Jesus. Things will all be together in the afterlife. And I guess on some level, I think that's like, actually normal. That's like, what Presbyterians and Methodists and Lutherans, that's what they do. And we're like, it's only because we were primed with a religious theology and doctrine of saying we are the one true church. We're God's mouthpieces. And we had the binary literalistic worldview. That's where for us, it all comes crashing down. And some would say, that's good. Secularism's best. Like, get out of this thing that isn't true. Cause truth matters. And LGBT people are killing themselves and women are suppressing their voice. So religion, bad, get out. But then there's a lot of other people that are like, no, no, no, don't throw the baby out the bathwater. Everything's imperfect. Systems will all fail you. It's a good community. It's a good moral structure. It's a good way to raise the kids. Truth, schmoof. Like, you know, goodness there. And I don't think there's a right answer, honestly.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:11:07] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:11:08] And so for everyone. Right, right. And obviously, religious belief in Particular and even just a question of the utility and adoption of religious belief. Totally personal. Right. I don't. I agree with you when I think it would be incredibly arrogant for someone especially like me to just say, here's the answer, guys, you know, live like this. What I will say is there's a question of, like, how individuals choose to act within religions, and then there's religious institutions. Right. Because the Catholic Church wasn't always, oh, yeah, you know, you're basic. You're an atheist. You're literally an atheist. Like, cool, whatever. We don't care.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] They kill you.

Olivia Pinson [00:11:42] Yeah. You're dead or you're burned.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:11:45] Like, so.

Olivia Pinson [00:11:45] So that's the thing. Like, I think, as you mentioned, not only will we see, we are seeing the Mormon Church having what, being beaten down into being forced to submit to the social influences around it. So, yeah, in terms of individuals, sure. It's all, you know, I can have my opinion, you can have yours. And that's where a debate exists. In terms of institutions, I don't think there's any good coming. Like, there's nothing virtuous about a Catholic Church which is accepting of, you know, frankly, anything but, particularly atheists or apostates. When yesterday's Catholic Church was. The Inquisition was, you die if you're an atheist, was. We have no tolerance while we're strong and we're actually in control.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] And like 6 or 8% of the priests systematically abusing children, of course, and just reassigning priests. And all over the world, like, the amount of pain and suffering of how many children were sexually abused, that was all with the money and the power of the church. And so that, Yeah, I think there is a real institutional issue. And then in our case, all the LGBT youth suicides, all the marriages that were split up, because fortunately for you guys, you were on the same similar pages for so many others. It's like, I'm leaving you and I'm taking the kids. Family destroyed.

Sam Pinson [00:13:00] It happens.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] There's suicides, there's depression, there's anxiety, there's broken families. There's all the women whose potential they didn't live up to their potential because they bought into the. Don't worry about an education, don't worry about a career. Just get married and have kids. A lot of kids. Collateral damage as they're living with these broken families. There's a serious moral, ethical problem with religions that use their power and money to teach something that isn't true and that are willing to accept and perpetuate the carnage, the human carnage. That happens.

Sam Pinson [00:13:36] Oh yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] For propping up beliefs that aren't true.

Olivia Pinson [00:13:40] Yeah, right. I was just gonna mention, maybe it's just overkill, adding to the list of Catholic institutional atrocities. But you know, the Pope saying essentially, like during, while the AIDS epidemic was sweeping across Africa, you know, AIDS is bad, but condoms are wor. Is our standard. This is, this is God's standard for what you should be doing. Right. Like, yeah, it's just, it's the.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] In the name of God.

Olivia Pinson [00:14:06] Right, exactly. And it is the inclusion of God that makes that a problem. If a man, like, if a scientist. Right. Said, okay, you know, AIDS are bad, but condoms, like, you're, you're either going to an afterlife of pain and torture or you know, it's just going to kill you somehow. Now, like we would actually accept that as man made and analyze it as such. Right. But when God's involved, you better back off and listen up.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] It's undue influence. When you start invoking God and speaking for God, then you're wielding undue influence on people such that when the carnage happens, you kind of are accountable for the carnage. You don't just get off scot free like you do good. No, you're exerting undue influence to harm a lot of people.

Sam Pinson [00:14:49] When I met with the stake president to ask to be released, he

John Dehlin [00:14:56] like,

Sam Pinson [00:14:57] what, what does he want? Right. He wants me to be able to resolve my concerns and continue to be part of the church. So he's, oh, yeah, okay, so we'll take that burden off of you. We'll, we can release you and of course we would like you to still keep coming to church, keep attending and you can just attend. You don't have to have any responsibility. But I think I knew the lay of the land at that point. I already, I knew what was up. But even if I had been unsure at that point, there's no room in the church for somebody who would be asking the questions that I was asking. Those questions have to be kept in the dark. Those questions are only supposed to be asked behind closed doors with one or two people. The stake president, the bishop. And that I think is additional evidence of the fact that it's all false, that it's all a fraud. The truth can withstand scrutiny.

Olivia Pinson [00:16:06] Right.

Sam Pinson [00:16:07] And the ironic thing is that there are statements like that from presidents of the church. It's just when the rubber hits the road, they didn't actually mean it.

Olivia Pinson [00:16:17] Right. Exactly. It's you pay homage or however you pronounce that. You, you like bow down to the image of truth. But, you know, whether it's behind closed doors or out in the open, you don't really care about it at all. That is the pattern of not only the church, but across many religions, backpedaling and disavowals and outright lies. Yeah.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:16:38] And coming back to what you were saying, John, about there not being one right way for someone to be in or out of the church. Festinger's cognitive dissonance can go the other way, too, where you leave the church like you believe in the church and that it's true, but you don't live according to its values, and that causes that. I wouldn't recommend that for. For someone either. Right. So I'm not saying that the path I've taken is the path, but in order to live according to my values and what I believe, that's what I needed to do to be mentally well and to have happiness and good health. So I think that's. And kind of like what we were talking about with those spiritual conversions to a religion. People have this experience that leads them to something that maybe they need at that time. And when you don't need the church anymore, you're able to have another spiritual experience or uplifting experience that leads you to what you now need. And I guess that's how I view it, is that I've. And this sounds presumptuous, but I've outgrown the church. I no longer need it like I did. And I did like it for a long time, but I don't now.

Olivia Pinson [00:18:02] Richard Dawkson. Just an interesting note. I think it's. It is Richard Dawkins, some secularist atheist author, relatively recently published a book called, like, Outgrowing Religion or Outgrowing God.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:18:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] And of course, orthodox Mormons are going to say that's the height of arrogance and pride. You don't need.

Sam Pinson [00:18:21] You don't.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] You study and you learn, and the learned are prideful, and you've become prideful, and now you're better than the church and you don't need it. And that's.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:18:31] I know it sounds that way, but I don't mean it that way.

Sam Pinson [00:18:36] And that's all part of the information control. And the mind control is learning is good as long as you hearken unto the counsels of God as revealed by me, the president of the.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:18:49] And it's servitude. Right, Right. It's. You know, when I would read the Sermon on the Mount and start memorizing it in your footsteps, actually, and be like, you know. Yeah, the Meek shall inherit the earth. Heck yeah. I'll take that. The meek are going to inherit the earth. Well, what is that teaching? Be meek.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Right.

Olivia Pinson [00:19:08] You are supposed to be sheep. You're supposed to be led by this figure. Right. And all these things seem so benign. It seems obvious that they're benign and benevolent when you're involved and when you're invested in them. And then once you take a step back and look at that, you see like this. Even if it weren't, even if God actually created this thing, it's a really effective way to control human beings. It doesn't even matter if you believe that it's true or not. It's just good at controlling people and that's dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] So your stake president.

Sam Pinson [00:19:42] Well, I was just saying there's no room. He wanted me to attend without serving in a calling and stay quiet. Yeah. And that, like, what's the point? I wouldn't be able to ask. Hey, do you guys know about this? Like, they don't actually want people to know about all this stuff in the gospel topic essays. If they did, they would teach it every Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Yeah, yeah. They don't want members to read the gospel topics essays.

Sam Pinson [00:20:09] That's my firm belief.

Olivia Pinson [00:20:11] I.

Sam Pinson [00:20:14] So we were meeting with friends. I didn't believe.

Coming Out as Non-Believers to Friends and Family

John Dehlin [00:20:18] How did friends receive you talking to them about your non belief?

Sam Pinson [00:20:21] So there was a variety of responses. Some said, let's not talk about that. And some said. Or some were willing to entertain discussion. I think motivated out of like the love and the personal relationship that we have, but also the church love and duty. Like you're a suffering, lost, deceived soul right now and if I can help you resolve these concerns, then I want to do that. And so I'll listen and I'll discuss. So there was mixed responses from the people that we know.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:20:58] Yeah. And I don't fault anyone for some of them were hurtful, but I don't fault anyone because I remember what it was like to be there and to feel that extreme discomfort, you know, and so I don't fault anyone. But yeah, we gotta mix it.

Sam Pinson [00:21:15] Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so. And I'll say when I was reading the comments of that individual on Facebook where he mentioned the CS letter and he was mentioning things, criticizing the church. I can't remember. I may have blocked him. Like, that was the kind of response that was welling up inside of me as a believer is I want to shut this out of my life.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:21:43] And so we had met with some friends and I. I tried to bring these things up with my family? Well, I did bring them up with my family. So the. The reveal, the coming out to my family was, is that the 4th of July?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:22:03] Ish.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:22:04] Yeah, I think so.

Sam Pinson [00:22:06] Last summer, been about a year now. We went down to Utah to visit family, and nobody knew. I hadn't given any kind of inkling to anybody that this is where I was. And I struck up the conversation and I did not like the response. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but. And like Sarah just said, I can't fault them because I've treated other people that way my entire life, but. Well, not entirely. So one of the responses was essentially like, how is it that you're just finding out about these things? We've known these things all along. So I felt like there was some gaslighting, like, what church did I go to? What church did I grow up in? Apparently I wasn't paying attention. All this time, there was that, and I think not a desire to listen and understand, but rather to fix me.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:23:15] So

Sam Pinson [00:23:17] I tried, and at least my family understood where I stood. And we went back home and I tried a couple of more times on a Slack conversation that the family has to bring these things up, and I was not welcome in doing that.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Your family talks through Slack?

Olivia Pinson [00:23:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] That's pretty techy.

Sam Pinson [00:23:43] Yeah, we have a chat.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:23:45] You're a techie family.

Sam Pinson [00:23:46] Yeah. And so I didn't have anybody to talk to anymore. And so a little bit after that point, I decided, I guess I felt I really need to explore this and talk to people about this. And so I started posting on Facebook, questions, quotes, things that I didn't know that I feel like were withheld from me, and apparently everybody else knew about them. The kind of feeling that I get from people that I bring it up to. And so if that's the case, it shouldn't be a problem for me to post these things on Facebook. And so that reached a larger audience, and it reached friends and acquaintances from decades past, reaching far into the past. And there were a variety of responses, mostly ardent defense of the Church, an unwillingness to acknowledge any validity in my concerns. Like, even if you still want to believe, is what I'm even saying true. So that was frustrating and disappointing. That activity is what led to the notice for the. The membership council with the charge of.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] That started last year.

Sam Pinson [00:25:16] My activity. It would have been.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:25:18] Yeah, I think it was like, January.

Sam Pinson [00:25:20] Yeah. Yeah. Of this year.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:25:22] Yeah. So just the last several months.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] So what I heard you say is that you tried to, you know, you're like, you love your family. Family's everything in Mormonism, religion's everything. And, you know, to us. And so, you know, yeah, you've figured things out with your wife maybe, or you're starting to. And your kids, you're kind of getting the same page. But you've got your parents, you've got your siblings, you've got aunts and uncles and all this extended family. You would think that because family's the most important thing, you could just go to all of them and have heart to hearts and really support each other and love each other. But then you find out that either people don't want to talk about it or they gaslight you or they cut you out of their lives in many instances. And so you just feel like, who do I talk to? And you don't know how to make sense of the world. And it's so confusing. This all happened to me while I was at Microsoft. And so, yeah, you're like, you turn to social media. It's just like, well, am I crazy? Am I broken? Am I bad? Are there others? Is there anybody? If my family either doesn't want to talk about it or they'll gaslight me and kind of deny it, I want to know outside my family that I'm not crazy, that maybe there's others. I want to have people to talk to. And you're starting to lose your community and friends. And so you want to, you know, they say a lone monkey is a dead monkey. So you want to find community and friends. And so it's just so very natural to go to social media, to want to just put the stuff out there and see what you find. But that's where the church is drawing the line these days, saying, and I hate to say it, but the BITE model, which is Steven Hasson's sort of acronym for how unhealthy organizations exert undue control. They control your behavior, they control information, they control your thoughts, and they manipulate you through emotion. And you know that you're in an unhealthy organization, or as some people want to call it, a cult, if the organization does everything they can to control your behavior, to limit the information others receive, and by limiting the information, control the thoughts people have. And so thus the church has drawn the line. And they don't care so much what you think or feel anymore. They don't even care if you don't believe anymore. They're like, stay in, have callings. Certainly we don't want a bishop to lose his, you know, to like, be perceived as having lost their faith. So stay in, have a temple recommend. I don't care.

Sam Pinson [00:27:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] You know, you can believe, be an atheist and we'll give you temple recommend as long as you're quiet. Why are you laughing about that?

Sam Pinson [00:27:52] Well, so I didn't go in with it to renew my recommend or something, but didn't you. Weren't you at some nuanced place?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:28:03] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. When the stake president said he'd give

Sam Pinson [00:28:07] me a temple recommend, I'm just laughing or nodding vigorously that yes, that is the case. As I always interpreted the temple questions like this was a filtering screening process that you had to meet this bar of behavior and faith. It's a yes or no to qualify to enter the sacred house of the Lord. And the reality is, please, take one, take one, have one.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] Because they don't want the former bishop and the former bishop's wife without temple recommends. Right?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:28:42] Yeah. And I think the biggest question for me was that was another change that they made was a question about do you disagree? Why can't we or do you agree?

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Affiliate.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:28:52] Yeah, agree. But agree was one of the words before they changed it. And I was like, why can't we disagree and still be together in the church? Like, why do I have to agree? That seemed really controlling to me. And the stake president was like, we'll still give you a recommend, like, if you can't answer those questions. And I don't want to quote him because I don't remember everything we talked about. But the gist was that, yeah, I would still be able to get a recommend if I wanted it.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] And at this point you weren't believing the church was true.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:29:26] That was, I just disagreed with a lot and he was saying that was okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Yeah. So, I mean, someone say that's good. It's like, oh, he's progressive, he's allowing diversity of thought.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:29:37] I did really appreciate it in the moment. Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:29:39] Well, and that's the thing, I think that the increased tolerance of religious institutions from the Catholic Church to Mormonism is perceived and called, maybe even channeled through love. Right. It's like we now, like, you can get a temple recommend even if you disagree with the church, which is true now and it wasn't true yesterday. But you know, you can do that now because it's all about you. It's all about love. God loves you, we love you. It's, it's all like, it's got to be this lovey dovey, like cushy sort of situation. When a more cynical and in my View, realistic perspective is, again, when religions and religious institutions get beaten to death with a club, they.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] The Truth Club.

Olivia Pinson [00:30:23] Right, the Truth Club. They capitulate and they say, well, now we're just the kindest people you ever met. And I don't want to, like, keep pulling in external sources or anything, but Christopher Hitchens, you've probably heard of him, he makes this amazing point in a lot of his discussions where he says, you know, in modern times, religion, like, crawls to us on its hands and knees with this ingratiating smile and offers itself as this, you know, an entity of love and tolerance and forgiving. But to accept it as what it portrays itself to be today is to ignore, willfully ignore, what it was like when it was strong, when it had influence, when it did get to decide who died when and why. Like, that is what defines an institution and an ideology, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] Yeah. And what's crazy is that, is that the church is all about love now, but they also have $200 billion in assets. They, like, you know, we had the Republican nominee for President of the United States came out of our religious tradition, the Senate minority or Majority Leader Harry Reid. Like, the Mormon Church is super powerful now. And even so, they were beaten into submission with the truth Hammer, which is Google and the Internet podcasts and Jeremy Runnels. They were beaten into this position. And you make a really good point that they didn't do it out of altruism or love. They did it because they had no choice. They were forced to change.

Sam Pinson [00:31:54] And I think there's no going back. Like, the narrative that I was given was, we've got the truth, black and white, and now they're trying to shift it to something else. Some of the time we get it wrong, and they can't be both. Pick one. But once you've picked one, how do you explain the other one? And if you pick, sometimes we get it wrong, then why do you need them? Why do you think that you're any different than any other church? That you point out and say, there's good in them, but they get it wrong?

John Dehlin [00:32:35] And then they'll say, well, we have the authority, we have the ordinances. What they're retreating to now is like, our special place in the world is that we have the keys, which comes down to authority. So our ordinances, baptism endowment, temple, marriage, where Mormonism is put on the earth, to have the keys to the ordinances, you need to get back to heaven. That's what it comes down to.

Olivia Pinson [00:32:59] Yeah, totally. And it's an ironic Reality that the, the ways in which religions differentiate themselves from others tend to be the same. Right. Like we're different because we actually do have the authority of God. Everyone else is saying the same thing. So I don't know how much credibility that grants that claim.

Sam Pinson [00:33:17] So the race in the Priesthood essay shaking my confidence in revelation. Revelation is supposed to be this absolutely sure path to knowledge. You can know the truth. Revelation will allow you to know things that you cannot know in any other way. And it's more reliable than your senses. It's more reliable than anything science can bring forth. And so when I started revisiting that idea and thinking about that I had spent 40 years in the model of the Church is true. And I prayed and I got revelation that that was the case. Meaning I felt peace. I had warm fuzzy feelings about it.

Olivia Pinson [00:34:13] And

Sam Pinson [00:34:18] I hear about many people who in that when they find troubling things, they get on their knees seeking for some resolution or clarification that will make it all go away. And oftentimes it's don't worry about it, you don't know everything, but you know enough. What I did was pray to know if the Book of Mormon is not true and is the church complete rubbish. And I had the same powerful spiritual feelings that I ever had about anything positive about the church. And then I prayed to know that the moon is made of Swiss cheese. And I had a powerful spiritual experience that the moon is made of Swiss cheese. That settled that question. I believe that people get spiritual confirmations of whatever they want to believe. And that's consistent with what we see in the LDS Church, the past presence of the Church. Did they feel the Spirit as they formulated their sermons that they delivered in general conference and published in the official publications of the church? And did the members of the church feel the spirit as they received those teachings that are now disavowed? Yes, they did. Right. Those teachings weren't delivered and received devoid of the same spiritual revelatory process that is relied on to justify everything else that people know to be true.

Olivia Pinson [00:35:54] Yeah, well, and I had a great conversation with some people involved in debate again who are stalwart one like lifelong members of the church. And the person I won't like say who it was specifically, but the person who I had an hour long conversation about the church and personal revelation specifically was like a figure of authority in the spheres of public school debate in high school. Right. And I was talking to this person who was a Mormon and we were having this conversation. It got to personal revelation and I said okay. So we have to understand, and I hope we agree, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn't have a monopoly on personal revelation. Right. And that's something that this usually reasonable person, I assumed would have agreed to. Like it was not even a point of contention. Instead, it took 45 minutes of circular reasoning, irrationalities, logical fallacies and total nonsense for us to arrive at that conclusion. That. Yeah, it just doesn't. You know, like a Catholic can feel just as strongly as a Muslim can feel just as strongly as a Mormon can feel that their church is the one true church. Right. Like definitionally contradictory claims. And it's that kind of like the difficulty that it can take for an entrenched mindset to just move from, okay, my religion doesn't have a monopoly among the species. Right. Doesn't have a monopoly on personal revelation. The fact that it can take an hour for that simple point to be reached, I think is just one example of how it's so difficult to make just one point. Imagine or we've experienced. It's obvious how difficult it is to make entrenched religious mindsets move in any productive manner. Right. Because if that's so difficult, how are you going to prove that the Book of Mormon isn't true? Right.

Sam Pinson [00:37:45] So basically, revelation was broken for me. And like the path to knowledge outlined in Alma 32, now I see confirmation bias galore. Why do you start with a desire to believe the thing that you want to know? Everything that I know now is true, whether I want it to be true or not.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] Yeah. Yeah. So you start sharing your stuff on Facebook. What types of posts do you start sharing?

Sam Pinson [00:38:26] Oh, I shared. I've shared several quotes of presidents of the church that missedandsunday.com makes into a nice little shareable meme. Some of the early.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] She's quoting the Brethren.

Sam Pinson [00:38:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] Well, that's. How is that apostasy?

Sam Pinson [00:38:44] This is a good question.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] So the types of quotes talking about what?

Sam Pinson [00:38:48] Yeah, so some of the first ones that I remember posting include Elder Oaks President Oaks saying, so if I remember it correctly, he was responding to a question in a fireside from somebody whose spouse or family member was inactive. And this individual wanted to know what's the best way for me to approach research in order to respond to the doubts of my loved one, my spouse. And Elder Oaks response was, let me suggest that research is not the answer. And so I had previously had a conversation with a member of the church suggesting that Ware and I contended that the church has a history of anti intellectualism that it actually does oppose certain kinds of research and certain lines of inquiry. That. And so that was kind of. I think that was the inspiration for that post. Like people are. My family member is telling me that no way. The church teaches us to embrace education. You know that. Sam, of course we love knowledge. You can't be saved in ignorance. The glory of God is intelligence. And yet we have this question with that answer. And so I wanted to put it out there and say, like, how do you guys explain this? I got accused of taking his words out of context. Even though I. Even though mistandsunday.com includes all the references and links, everything.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:40:29] I think because it came from mist in Sunday school, people saw it as having an agenda. And so even though it was the verbatim quote. Yeah, there was a lot of. There was a lot of what's your intent in posting this? You shouldn't be posting this stuff. Nothing really addressing the question or the quote. A lot of ad hominem attacks or a lot of just you're taking this out of context and. Yeah, okay. Just frustrating.

Sam Pinson [00:41:02] Yeah. So at the beginning, a lot of it was nothing super. I didn't feel like anything super provocative, just statements about kind of where I was with learning things that nobody had ever told me.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:41:21] And

Sam Pinson [00:41:25] I also would share posts and ask questions. I. I had read Fair Mormon explanations for troubling facts and concepts as I began this process and I didn't find them helpful at all. In fact, Fair Mormon helped me complete my apostasy. And so I had a post where I asked people what they thought about Fair Mormon. Does it do more harm than good? Is it.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:42:01] Have you found it helpful?

Sam Pinson [00:42:02] Have you. Were you aware of it? Have you read anything? And. I recently I shared several about sexism in the church.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:42:17] Another one you posted was things have been taught in general conference in the past that we're wrong. If that happens now, will you know? And how will you know?

Sam Pinson [00:42:31] Yeah, right before conference I should be

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:42:33] hoping to get people to think about so we know the prophets have disavowed what's in the past. So if that were to happen today, how could you know? And

Sam Pinson [00:42:46] yeah, I was critical of the church's actions with respect to Covid and passing the sacrament. I've been. What else?

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Yeah, go ahead, keep going.

Sam Pinson [00:43:06] I'm just remembering with. I did several kind of in rapid succession related to sexism, including one where I'm forgetting who it was now shared that that his wife had borne him 14 children and to have done anything less would have been less than her duty and privilege. And I asked, hey, like, do you do all of you out there, do you agree? Would that have been less than her duty and privilege? And so stuff like that, just things that I feel like, illustrated serious problems in what the church is claiming today. Its claim to have these eternal principles that are changing all the time. Why aren't we telling women today they need to have 14 children? Or grievous sin. That's what birth control used to be. And now the timing and number of children you have, that's a personal matter. It's not the church's business.

Sam's Critical Facebook Posts and Church Response

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:44:16] So he's pointing out inconsistencies and just asking questions a lot of. And some criticism of, but always with a question like, what do you think? And his posts would get like. And sometimes mine as well would get like 100 comments, 200 comments, like, they got some traction.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Yeah. So I'm, like, looking. I'm looking at your Facebook wall right now. And by the way, the excomm communication eventually is for apostasy, pretty much for Facebook posts. We'll talk about that.

Olivia Pinson [00:44:51] Yeah, we'll talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Yeah. So, like, as I review your, you know, your Facebook wall, you've already mentioned a lot of the quotes, but you're quoting Hubie Brown and, you know, statements he makes about, like, it's important to have thoughts and to be a thinker. You're quoting. You're talking about the church's response to COVID 19. You're talking about apologetics, you know, polygamy. But everything you're saying is like quoting the church, quoting church leaders, quoting past authoritative statements. You know, to some extent, you're encouraging free thoughts or, you know, the ability to question. But you're not, like, outright saying the church is a fraud. You're not saying the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Or are you?

Sam Pinson [00:45:33] Well, that did come.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] Okay. Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:45:36] Yeah. So initially I didn't. Initially, I focused on asking questions and sharing information, and that didn't sit well with a lot of people who commented on my posts. They wanted me to share. Well, what do you think? What do you think? And initially, I wasn't interested in talking about my beliefs. I wanted to talk about these quotes and these facts. And. And so I resisted making it about me. Yes, this is. This is not a Sam problem. These facts, these teachings, this history. This is the problem that I want to talk about. But eventually I did start sharing my feelings, and I did make statements that are critical of the church. And I did say things like, joseph Smith is a fraud. The Church is a fraud. Russell M. Nelson is a liar.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] That's strong language.

Sam Pinson [00:46:41] And the God of Mormonism is a racist. So I did make some strong statements that do reflect how I feel. And those last three statements are three things that were specifically brought up during the membership council or. Yeah, they were brought up in a text message that the stake president sent to me before the membership council.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:47:05] But before that, I think the bishop had asked you to stop posting.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, like, so you're making all these posts. When did the church start getting involved?

Sam Pinson [00:47:21] I don't have the exact timing of it in. So here's an interesting thing. The day I did my first post on Facebook that was critical of the

John Dehlin [00:47:34] church was that January of this year?

Sam Pinson [00:47:36] I believe that it was January of this year. I got a text message from the stake president. He hadn't contacted me, I think, for nearly a year, personally. It had been a long time since the last personal contact from the stake president. And coincidence? Maybe. I don't think it was. I think that I was reported and that that's why he reached out. So that marked a beginning of scrutiny and awareness, I think, of what I was doing.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Is that eerie? A little bit, yeah. Why?

Sam Pinson [00:48:15] Like, that's what the Gestapo did. Like, it's odd. I can believe whatever I want, and it's a free country. I can share information. It seems weird and unhealthy to try to restrict information. Quotes from the leaders of the LDS church.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Right.

Sam Pinson [00:48:36] This is your church. These are your leaders. And you want to pretend like, well, that was the problem.

Olivia Pinson [00:48:43] Right.

Sam Pinson [00:48:44] I was sharing quotes from leaders. And that contact was when I shared some direct quote that was about, like, research not being the answer or something like that. I hadn't. I had not revealed my own personal feelings about the church. I hadn't said personally anything critical about the church.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] And Oaks did say that, correct?

Olivia Pinson [00:49:05] Yeah.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:49:06] And we know that people were reporting, Sam, because the leaders would tell us that I've been sent information. I've been sent, like, thousands of pages of face.

Sam Pinson [00:49:21] He said, I've got a hundred pages of your Facebook post here.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:49:25] So we knew someone was.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Who was that? Do you think it's ward members?

Sam Pinson [00:49:29] I have suspicions, but no, we're not. We don't know.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:49:32] But that's deeply troubling to me. When I was in the church, I didn't do anything like that. I don't understand wanting to take the time to rat someone out, to monitor

John Dehlin [00:49:47] someone, to collect what they're writing, to

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:49:49] send it to the Leader in the hopes of what? Yeah, it bothers me a lot. And then not knowing who it is too, is hard to trust, I guess.

Sam Pinson [00:50:01] So a little bit of the strengthening the members committee happening at the local level. So what are we talking about?

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Didn't want to meet with him, so he reaches out.

Sam Pinson [00:50:14] Yeah. So he reached out then. And I said, hey, I'm curious, why the sudden interest in me? It's been a while since we talked. Did I do something wrong? And he didn't say anything about Facebook. So there was no acknowledgment that that was a problem or that that's why he contacted me, but I didn't stop posting and.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:50:39] Well, you told him you weren't interested in meeting.

Sam Pinson [00:50:42] Oh, yeah. He wanted to meet with me.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:50:44] Stake president and constituent.

Sam Pinson [00:50:46] Yeah. I'm not sure if congregate then, but he wanted to see how I was doing with my journey and my research. And I think he may have asked to meet then I declined. Nothing had changed in my feeling. And then at some point the bishop contacted me. Oh yeah. So I'm really good friends with the bishop. Considered him probably to be my best friend.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Was he counselor for you when you were a bishop?

Sam Pinson [00:51:20] No, he was on the high council.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] Okay. Okay.

Sam Pinson [00:51:22] Yeah. So we, we, among many things, we bonded in our love for the church and our service. And so he's a busy guy as bishop now of the ward. And you're close friends and we're close friends. We had talked many times about getting together for lunch and just to catch up on how each other is doing. And I.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] But had he ever tried to save your testimony or rescue you or.

Sam Pinson [00:51:54] Yeah, I didn't mention that earlier. No. So I met with the stake president and I asked to be released and I told him how I felt. I think it was within 24 hours, maybe 48 hours. I was actually a little bit sick. And he called because the stake president had communicated to him what was going on with your bishop.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Your bishop.

Sam Pinson [00:52:20] Yeah. So my bishop called and. And wanted to talk. And this was 9:30 or 10:30, 10 at night or something like that. I wanted to go to sleep, but I totally understand hearing that news for him must have been very shocking and that he wanted to reach out as my friend and as the bishop. So we actually stayed talking in his car in the church parking lot until I think 2:30 in the morning, exploring it all. And he tried to understand and resolve my concerns and shared his testimony with me.

John Dehlin [00:53:00] This is in 2019, way back, right?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:53:04] Yeah. That would have been like May.

Sam Pinson [00:53:06] Yes. Yeah. Yes. This was. I asked to be released. I hadn't been released yet. Nobody knew except the stake president and the bishop. So. So at that point, he did reach out as my friend and as bishop, and tried to save me.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:53:26] Then fast forwarding.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Then you went inactive and. Yeah, fast forward.

Sam Pinson [00:53:31] Fast forward back to after this interaction with the stake president. And I'm posting more. We're talking about. The bishop and I are talking about getting together for lunch. And I told him, I'm not going to stop posting and I don't want to have a conversation. That's stake president. He asked me if I would meet with the stake president, I think. And I said, no, I don't want to meet stake president congregant. No interest in that. And I don't want to meet Bishop congregant either. So we are able to arrange a lunch date. We get together as friends. As friends. That was my understanding. And we are, of course, talking about my concerns. I talk about my concerns with my friends. So that was fine. But then at the end of the meeting, he put on his bishop hat and said, I've got to ask you to stop posting. You're deliberately weakening the faith of members. And I felt like I was sharing the truth. And this may sound like a little legalistic semantics or semantic issue maybe, but Alma 32:21. Faith is hope in something that is true. You cannot have faith in something that's not true. And so my opinion is that truth cannot harm faith if faith is ever at odds with the truth. The faith is what needs to change. The faith either needs to be abandoned or it needs to be adapted. And therefore, I'm not weakening faith by sharing true statements. And in fact, I can't. It's impossible for me to do that. In that conversation, he disagreed and acknowledged that there are some truths that do weaken faith, which. That's problematic.

Olivia Pinson [00:55:36] Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, I actually feel like. I'm not sure if he was, like, thinking through this process or even aware of this idea, but I think if you're gonna be a true and, like, faithful, you know, member of that ideology and religion, and if you believe that that verse in Alma is true, as you obviously should, then you kind of have to say that some truths, like, can challenge faith, because if you accept that faith cannot, according to that scripture, be challenged by truth, then I think that you've actually undermined the whole idea of faith in the first place. Right. The whole. Or at least how it's used in modern times. Really. We have faith. Because whether it's evolution or whether it's the age of the earth or the universe or anything else that contradicts our beliefs, we exercise faith religiously speaking, to ignore that stuff, to say, okay, but my God's gonna figure it out or in the afterlife it'll be okay.

Sam Pinson [00:56:32] So it's, I believe in that in spite of what the evidence is. But anyway, so the groundwork was being laid for excommunication, that the language used referenced the definition of apostasy in the handbook. And I was put on notice. Stop your activity on Facebook. I said, I love the truth too much. I won't. You do what you need to do. So that was the end of that conversation. And then, and just, you know that

John Dehlin [00:57:05] Boyd, Kate Packer said this in the early 80s, not all things that are true are useful. And so the church realized long ago that the truth isn't always healthy for faith. And if you have to choose between faith and the truth, you go with faith over truth.

Sam Pinson [00:57:23] Yeah, I think that may have been one of my posts as well. That quote and people telling me I was interpreting it all wrong, took it out of context. And then sometime later, I think my next contact may have been from the stake president through a text message reiterating the We've been really patient with you, we've tried really hard. You need to stop posting. And then there may have been yet another message from the bishop. I think he asked me hey, like have you changed your mind about Facebook or you're posting? And every time I answered consistently, no, I haven't changed my mind, I'm not going to stop posting. And then I think that those communications spread out from the initial contact to I don't know about last week. That was them laying the warning me and laying the foundation for excommunication. And then I got a message from the stake president that said we've been patient with you, you haven't stopped. So I really feel like we need to move forward with this. And I may not be quoting him exactly, but that was the sentiment.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] Let me just say that, just ask you here. So I'm kind of of two minds about this, having been through all this and having talked to many, many people who've been through it. On the one hand, this is very cult like behavior. We talked about the bite model, controlling your behavior. Stop talking, you know, be silent, controlling the information, telling you, stop spreading the information. Even though everything you were sharing was literally quotes from general authorities, authoritative sources, things taught as doctrine, things from scripture, things from the Journal of Discourses. Everything you're teaching is actually true and factual, but it's not useful. It's not helpful to faith. So they're controlling the information. Even though it's not anti Mormon information, it's very Mormon information. They're still wanting to control that because they want to control thoughts of the members, shield them from the truth, so they can't have thoughts that would lead them out of the church. And then they're using fear and intimidation to try and silence you. And so, like, all of that's classic bite kind of cult disturbing. You know, monitoring you, collecting, you know, having people tell on you. Like, all that's super disturbing and it's super culty and it's Jehovah's Witnesses and it's Scientologists, and it's just all the bad things. Right. On the other hand, when I'm trying to be compassionate and remembering my former self, it all makes sense. They hold these truths to be sacred. They think that the stakes are eternal life or eternal damnation. The church brings so much joy and happiness and meaning to so many people. And I'm sure in their minds they're like, look, Sam, okay, you don't believe anymore. We get it. Like, go live your happy, healthy life. Go take your family wherever you take them. Do cool things, save the world, whatever you want to do. Just leave our church alone. Let us believe in peace. Don't try and change our beliefs. Don't try and, like, tear down the church. Just can't you just, like, leave the raft for others and go live a happy, healthy life, but not try and tear it all down? And if you're going, we'll give you lots of warnings, several warnings over multiple months. And if you're going to insist on trying to tear down people's faith, tear people out of the church, even it's with the truth? Even if it's with the truth, then yeah, especially because you're in a position of power and influence. Everyone looked up to you. We gave you that power and influence. Yeah, we've got to take you out because otherwise this virus, forgive the pun, in the pandemic, you know, kind of in a coronavirus world, you're going to spread the virus and other people are going to get sick and spiritually die. So we've got to quarantine you or you're going to spiritually kill lots of people and lots of families. Like, I kind of get it. Right? Do you kind of get it?

Sam Pinson [01:01:45] Yeah, I think that's absolutely the way that they look at it. So I can appreciate that perspective. And the former self would have voiced exactly those feelings. The current self sees the harm that the church causes. So while there may be some good that comes, that people receive the hope that they have in an eternal family, I cannot ignore the harm that I know is caused by the church. And so the effect of me sharing the truth and damaging somebody's faith, if that's what happens when they're exposed to these things, I am not responsible for, nor can I control how it affects them. But in my value system, the truth is most important. And that's why I end up sharing rather than withholding. That's why I come down on the side of sharing.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:02:53] Yeah, that's something that I was troubled by, was that someone was reporting him and that there was this feeling that if people's faith is being harmed, I need to do something about it. I don't know, it's hard because I know when you're in the church, the leaders are responsible for the flock's spirituality. Right. So they do feel that. But to have people say he's weakening my faith and then feel like they need to go like, take care of it like a parent to a child or it was just an interesting dynamic and I don't know, I just felt like, don't you have like better things to do? Like, go, minister, go love, like that's what the church was about when I was in it. I never spent my time doing these things. So I have a hard time understanding that desire to ferret, ferret him out, pin him down and cut him loose. Just. Yeah, I don't.

Olivia Pinson [01:03:56] Yeah, well, and sorry, I've got a frog in my throat that isn't going to go away. But something dad has mentioned is that, you know, perceived threat is a pretty powerful motivator to silencing and censoring. Right. And I think that that is kind of the thing. You know, you can go and minister and you can go and like love and you can use love as your motivator and whatnot. But at the end of the day, if you really understand what's being said and you do have the closed mind system that is so common in religious individuals and institutions, then yeah, I mean, that is a threat. Right. It doesn't even have to be a bad thing. When closed minds are under attack, that generally is an invitation to be open minded. Right. But once when you're in that mindset, it's absolutely perceived as a threat. So I understand. Yeah, we can sympathize with that. But at the end of the day, I think there's pretty powerful psychological reasons to. And obviously you're the expert on that, to want to shut that down.

Sara Pinson [01:05:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Thank you. One more question I have, just because this is the common sort of Richard Bushman, Terrell and Fiona Givens, Carl Youngblood kind of response, which is just. And I love Carl and all those people. I respect them. But there is a postmodern move that many progressive, liberal, nuanced Mormons make. This will bring out the philosophy response, but it's sort of like, what is truth? What is translation? What do we know for sure? Like, all organizations are flawed. All leaders are imperfect. Atheists abuse kids and lie. So do churches. But there's imperfect people and organizations everywhere. So, yes, truth, but what is truth? And there's so much good the church does all the humanitarian stuff, giving families meaning and purpose. Like, giving people community, identity, morality, resolutions about the afterlife. Like, okay, if you want to sort of take this billy club of truth and. And clobber the church and all its members over the head with it, you can. But there are other values, too, like community and values and joy and clean living and, like, chill out, dude. Like, the church does so much good. There's imperfection everywhere. The United States is imperfect. It's done genocide, it's done wars. Like, there's. Everything's problematic. What is truth? Like, just let people have what's meaningful to them. You go find meaning and joy, but don't let community and meaning and purpose and all the good of Mormonism service. Don't let all that be thrown away by one value of truth. Right? Like, there's that argument of just, like, take a deeper, wiser view, which is, this means a lot to a lot of people. What is truth anyway? So just let it go, and go live your happy, healthy life and let those who still value it. I mean, yeah, if the LGBT people need to leave, let them leave. If people decide it's not true, if women want to go, let them go do that. Like, yeah, freedom. But don't actively be trying to. To take people out of the church or to take the church down.

Sam Pinson [01:07:43] Well, yeah, people think that. They respond that way. So therefore, what? So I'm supposed to go away quietly? The church taught me to value truth and to proclaim it from the rooftops and to sacrifice everything to share the truth. And I was that person. I was that missionary. I dedicated everything to the church. And now that I find out it's a fraud, that I don't believe it anymore, suddenly my approach to truth is supposed to change. Like my personality didn't change with what I learned. I would also add that if all the people who have recognized the truth leave quietly, what is going to happen to the church? Are injustices going to be corrected? Is the harm going to stop? And by the time a marginalized or a harmed person figures it out and has the courage to leave. And leaving is not easy. It's not as simple as getting up and walking out of a room. It's extremely difficult. So that's really. It's not a well thought out or an understanding consideration of all of the factors involved. I don't think that going away quietly serves the church. If everybody did that and the church received no outside pressure, what would the church look like today? It'd be more like the KKK than a Christian church.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] So you're saying it's not just a position of values like the church and its members benefit from dissidents and critics calling out the problems?

Sam Pinson [01:09:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:49] And I totally agree. I think if you look at just the past 10, 15 years, there is no single period of time in the history of Mormonism, I believe, where the church, I mean, yes, polygamy is a big change. That took 50 years. Yes, blacks in the priesthood was a big change. It took 100 years. But like never in a 10 year period, I think, have we seen so much rapid change as we have in the past 10, 15 years. And that's freaking truth. And the Internet and Google and podcasts and CES Letter and dissidents and critics and Kate Kelly and media and Jeremy Runnels and Rock Waterman and all the people, Sam Young and Bill Riehl and all the people that have made real sacrifices speaking the truth. That's made Mormonism better for Mormons. It's made the church a healthier organization. It's made it healthier. I think everybody wins. And I want to make sure. Olivia, were you going to say something? You did grab the mic for a second and so let's do Olivia and Sam Jr. If that's all right.

Sara Pinson [01:10:47] I was just going to. You kind of stole the words out of my mouth. I was.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] I want to hear from you.

Sara Pinson [01:10:52] Okay, well, I'll paraphrase then. But I mean, just in response to like that whole what is truth? I mean, it's just beneficial for people. Like, like, I mean, like you were saying, you can't just leave. Like it is very much a cult and it's not a culture. I think a lot of people try to. Excuse me. Maybe the way that the church lags behind society's progress with, like, oh, it's just a culture. You can leave when you. If you want. And, you know, like, if you're LGBTQ and you need to leave, like, leave, like. But it doesn't work like that. And also, it's not a culture. Like, its entire foundation is truth. I mean, ever since you're little, you're taught fall the prophet, these things are true. Like, you can't say, what is truth? Like that the entire premise of the church is true.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] So true.

Sara Pinson [01:11:45] So, yeah, I love it.

John Dehlin [01:11:47] Thank you, Olivia. I told you I'd. I'd push your buttons.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:11:53] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [01:11:55] Yeah. So there's tons of ways to tear that argument to pieces. Right. Not least of which have been mentioned already. Let's just say, if we're going to define truth for the sake of this argument, that if X and Y are two different claims and they are contradictory, let's say zero equals zero and zero equals one.

Sam Pinson [01:12:16] Okay?

Olivia Pinson [01:12:17] Let's just. Let's just assume that we can know anything, because it'll be a long conversation if we don't start with that assumption. One of these is true and one of these is not true. By definition. They could both be false. One of them could be true and the other can be false. They cannot both be true. So if you're going to tell me that one of these claim, or rather if you're going to say, like, what is truth? As if we can't really pin it down, let's just say that if one of these claims is true, then the other one isn't. Right. And let's just establish that claims can be made that are false.

Sam Pinson [01:12:49] Right.

Olivia Pinson [01:12:49] I can say that zero equals one when it doesn't. Right. And obviously, if you want to get, like, super epistemological, that's a huge philosophical garbage heap, in my opinion. But it's an interesting conversation to have. It doesn't really apply. And I think Olivia illustrated perfectly why it falls apart in a practical sense, like, when applied to the church. Here's what I will say about, like, just. Just let people, like, live. You live your happy, healthy life, and I'll live mine. And I find good stuff in the church. I think it's kind of the matrix problem. Right. Like, red pill, blue pill, I think, is the combo. It's okay. Do you want to live a lie as a slave, as a serf to totalitarian power? Or do you want to face up to reality and fight it like a man or a woman or an adult. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] Or youth,

Olivia Pinson [01:13:38] like A human being, we'll say.

John Dehlin [01:13:39] Like a human being, right?

Olivia Pinson [01:13:40] Yeah, like, like which one is better? Because obviously it's all personal choice, right. I don't want to force anyone to do anything and I don't think I could in the first place. But like anyone who's going to propose that there isn't a clear set or there shouldn't be a clear set, like value ranking, meaning it's better to face up to reality instead of running away from it or you know, plugging your ears and singing to ignore it. First of all, I don't think I can understand that position very well and I don't sympathize with it very much. Maybe that's a feeling on my part. We'll agree to disagree. Finally. I would just say that, yeah, like on the practical level there's, there's a great argument to be had there, right. It's not like clear cut whether or not something's a net benefit or a net detriment. I would say it's a net detriment, the Church and what it does in people's lives. But again, I don't even think you have to touch that. I think if you want to address the idea of truth and what it means to face up to reality, it doesn't mean hiding behind faith or hiding behind Scripture or anything else and saying this is my truth because what is truth? Right. It doesn't matter if there are contradictory claims within the Church's doctrine itself. It's all up to interpretation. And I get to hide behind my reality. That seems to be what that argument is. And I definitely don't like that.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] So I have to just, I'm going to push back just really quickly just because this is really important stuff and this is really relevant. So what we're getting now in Mormonism, whether it's with Spencer Fluman in the Maxwell Institute, Phil Barlow Terrell and Fiona Givens, Richard Bushman, Adam Miller, you know, Patrick Mason, any of these kind of neo apologists within Mormonism. What you're getting now from kind of this intellectual privileged elite is they're going around, whether it's in their little books or their little presentations to select groups, or in these little secret firesides that they hold, or in the private one on one conversations they have, it's like, yeah, the brethren say the church is true, but they should have never really said that. And it's when Joseph said translation, what does translation mean? That's really, translation should have been the word that was used. And like, yeah, the church did Set you up with this false binary of true and false. But these are just old guys and they didn't know any better and they meant it. But we, the neo apologetic elite Mormon class, progressive liberals, it's not that you were set up. It wasn't about truth. There's truth everywhere. There's beauty everywhere. There's goodness in Mormonism, there's goodness outside of Mormonism. We have things to offer. Other people have things to offer. Book of Mormon doesn't need to be historical. It can just be a book of myth, a book of good principles to help you live your life. And you know, just between you and me, we can't say this publicly because our salaries or our reputation is based on it. But like when the brethren say it's about truth and the one true church, that's not what it's really about. And we apologize that you were kind of set up with that expectation. But it's just about finding goodness wherever you can find it. And come on, Sam Jr. There's a lot of goodness. There's just a lot of goodness in the church. Yes, it hurts the LGBT people. Okay? Yes, it hurts women. Yes, it hurts intellectuals. Yes, it hurts people of color. But we're working on that. And you're only gonna change, change it from within. If you leave it, you're not going to have any influence. So if you stay, you get all the benefits, plus you get to help make it better. Because everything's imperfect. And so sorry that you cared so much about truth. Sorry that you believed the Lord. Translation when we said translation, but these were old guys explaining things sincerely without a really mature understanding. And this kind of neo apologetic, progressive liberal Mormonism now coming out of the Maxwell Institute and BYU. Patrick Mason, Spencer Fluman, Thomas McConkie, that's the real. That's the true deep, rich Mormonism. And just let go of the stupid binary literalistic worldview. There's something deeper and richer here. And you don't have to throw. Sam Jr. You don't have to throw the baby out. Sam Senior, Sarah, like Olivia, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can have it both. You can be a progressive liberal Mormon. You can have all the good of the community, and you can stay in the church and make it better. What's not to like you get at all.

Olivia Pinson [01:18:20] John, John, John, John, let me. John, let me talk to you. John, John. To the first 95% of the argument, go start your own religion. You don't buy. No, you don't have to I'm not the one throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The people who decide what the church doctrine is, they're the ones who are saying, if this. If the bathwater's getting thrown out, the baby's got to go too. Because what if you say, for example, you know, the Book of Mormon is the word of God and like our entire. If the Book of Mormon is true, then as I've heard many times, the sacrament meaning, then the church is true and vice versa. So if you disprove the Book of Mormon, you know, it's game over.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] But the brethren should have said that they were wrong when they said right.

Olivia Pinson [01:19:00] So let me ask you this. Why are you part of this religion, John, which you clearly care so much about? Why are you part of the religion if you believe that every single leader.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] Because it's a good way to raise my family. It's community and there's morality and it's tradition and there's spirituality there. There's deep spiritual truth even if it's not true.

Olivia Pinson [01:19:19] Right, right, right, of course. Yeah. I mean, that fickle thing we call truth, it's really just a joke. I agree. But at the end of the day, like, look, if the Boy Scouts decide, hey, guys, we've adopted a lot of racist, sexist, homophobic ideas. We're also going to meditate for an hour every morning. Does that make that, like, why don't you join that Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts, whatever for along that train of thought, we. Why are you a Mormon instead of a Catholic or Methodist or Baptist?

John Dehlin [01:19:45] Because it's my tribe. Because it's my people. Like, this is my spiritual language.

Olivia Pinson [01:19:50] Okay, so let me say this as maybe some kind of closure.

Sara Pinson [01:19:57] He helps.

Olivia Pinson [01:19:59] No, we can keep doing this. This is fun. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but as long as you participate in Mormonism for the reasons that you've listed, I'm going to go to my slightly racist, sexist, homophobic spirit, Boy Scouts club. And there's not only no difference in validity, but you are operating within a system which, as doctrine to the rest of the world, you might have your little secret club that has its elite knowledge of these things. Have fun with that. Right. But at the end of the day, as far as the world and almost all other Mormons are concerned, you believe in things that are not what you're describing, like a specific structure for the afterlife, like the second coming, et cetera, et cetera.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] So, yeah, and I think what these people would say is, yeah, yeah, we believe in a different Mormonism and we're okay with that, right? Like, that's. It's. I'm sad for you that you were given the. Both of you, all of you, that you were given the idea that there's only one way to do a religion. There's only one way to be a Mormon. Like, but you were misled. There are lots of ways to be a Mormon. You can be a literalistic one, a liberal one, a progressive one, a conservative one, a fundamentalist one. And that's the beauty of it, is that. And I'm. Obviously, I feel differently about these things, but I'm just. I'm curious to have this discussion. Like, they would just say, you guys were misled. We're sorry. But, yes, I have my own version of Mormonism. And everyone. And this is what they'll say. Everyone, at the end of the day is a buffet Mormon. Nobody believes everything. Everybody picks and chooses. So, yes, everybody is living their own version of Mormonism. And that's the beauty of it. Not the bad about it. Let's let Olivia go, and then I'll bring it back to you guys.

Sara Pinson [01:21:46] Well, the reason it's not beautiful is because. Well, I think there's a good argument to be made that the progress, the progress made by the church is the opposite of progress, actually, and is not. Like it's progress made without the mentality of actually wanting progress. And I think there's an argument to be made that only fuels sort of this underlying resentment. And, like, I don't think that. I think we could. We go backwards as society sometimes. And I think that when we're making progress because it's being forced upon us or because we're, you know, we have this mentality that is upheld in the church because everyone's buffet Mormon, it's okay, you can leave if you want, but it's still, like, I'm not explaining it very well, but the progress that is made in the Mormon Church isn't true progress because the people in power in the Mormon Church didn't want it in the first place. And that trickles down. And, yeah, not only does that mean that their progress is lagging, but I think it's almost like a dangerous kind of progress. Like, you could look at it both ways. Like, yeah, it's good that we're progressing, but I think it. It's just wrong. Like, I think it fuels a sort of blindness where you think that you're living in this progressive thing that is not progressive, and then it creates even more, like, mental health problems for a lot of People.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:23:14] And, well, it reminds me of the. Olivia wrote this great article on media. Is that what that's called? Medium? Kind of. Was it a letter to church members?

Sam Pinson [01:23:27] Open letter to the church.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:23:28] Open letter to church members. And basically saying, when there's progress, we give credit to the prophet and we're grateful for revelation. And she's saying, let's thank the people who.

Sam Pinson [01:23:41] The apostates.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:23:43] Well, let's thank the people who were hurt. Let's thank. I don't want this to sound bad, but thank the gays who. The LGBT people who lost their lives, who took their lives. That's what's making the change. It's not. It's not like. I think that's kind of what you're saying is that it's not the church being progressive, it's the church, their hand being forced and then off, the suffering of a lot of suffering and other people putting pressure on them.

Sara Pinson [01:24:10] But it's still heralded as progress, which is completely wrong. And it's progress. That's not.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] It's heralded as revelation.

Sara Pinson [01:24:18] Yeah. And that's it. And that's it. Yeah. This progress, people within the church thank their church leaders for this because typically what happens is that the. The lower rankings in the church start to get uncomfortable. Right. And then the higher rankings slowly comfort them. And then it's like, oh, thank you. Like, they didn't make that change. This was the people, the activists, the people, like, giving their lives and their time to actually speak up.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:24:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] Yeah. And so they. They undo. They do the November policy. In November 2015, people literally kill themselves. Marriages end like just all sorts of carnage. It's celebrated as a revelation. When it happens, then when they undo it because of all the marriages and lives that were ruined, it's heralded as a beautiful revelation and as a breakthrough. And it's just this massive deception and gaslighting. And I'll just say, I'll answer my arguments to you, which is, is the Catholic Church just another, you know, great organization? Tell that to all the children that were sexually molested by the priests systematically. And the church covered up and protected the priests at the expense of the victims. Is the Boy Scouts just a benign, healthy organization? Tell it to all the youth that were molested. And all the out of court settlements where the Boy Scouts paid off families to be quiet so that other future boys could be molested. Right. In the church's case, all the LGBT people who have died, all the young women and men who didn't meet their potential because they were believing Something was true, because at age 16, you do believe it's true and you do take it seriously. So all the loss of potential, all the women who didn't become what they want to do, all the people of color that questioned their own color of their skin, had all that internalized racism and all the pain and suffering of that, you know, there's so much pain. You know, those of you who prop up the church with all its money and all its power to sort of make excuses for it and encourage a middle way, you do that on the backs of and at the expense of LGBT people, people of color, women, intellectuals, dissidents, et cetera. And you're still ultimately bolstering the church's authority and its claims of being connected with God. And that's where it is always just the most dangerous. Nobody should say they speak for God, period. It should be against the law of the world to say that you speak for God, because that's too much power. As soon as anyone believes you speak for God, then they've shut off their own internal voice, their own internal morality, and they've just sort of like, said, okay, tell me what to do and I'll do it. And that's when so much pain and suffering happens. And so, yeah, church, if you just want to be this progressive, you know, liberal, open minded, loving church, you have to stop claiming that you speak to God. You just have to. And you have to figure out a way to stop causing LGBT youth to kill themselves, you know, women to stop living up to their potential. People of color, stop telling them that their skin is a result of a curse. And you know, what other groups am I leaving out? Like, you know, stop harassing truth seekers who just simply talk openly about the church and its teachings and then you publicly shame and excommunicate them, drive wedges in family between families, just because someone speaks out. You gotta drop the claims of talking for God and you gotta stop all the harm you're causing. And then, yes, all you liberal progressive Mormons can rest easily that you're in a great club. Right.

Sara Pinson [01:28:18] I think the progress that has been made and is being made is being made for the powerful, which is completely not what progress is. Yeah, like the focus should be for these minorities, these people who are actually being hurt, not to save the profit's

John Dehlin [01:28:35] butt or the church's 200 plus billion dollars in assets, you know, and that's where we are in 2020. Even though maybe they've lost 5% with the stock market. The church is a 200 plus billion dollar organization. Within 10 to 20 years, they'll be a trillion dollar organization. And that's really what they're doing. When they do make these changes, these press releases, the prophet, when he talks about racism, when they roll back the LGBT policy, what they're doing is protecting their financial portfolio, their power. Like you said, they're not really trying to help anyone. They're not really trying to leave suffering. They have all these lawyers at Curtin and McConkey that are literally trying to protect their financial assets and protect their power so that they continue to grow their power and influence. Now, I don't think in their minds that's what they're thinking, but that's how the beast operates. That's how the beast runs. It runs on money and power. And so the church is not set up to help the poor, the sick, the needy, the afflicted, the disadvantaged. Kind of like Christ taught. The church is set up today. The modern Mormon Church is set up to protect its financial assets and its absolute power with its membership, and that drives everything. And so authority is the most sacred thing in Mormonism, not Christ, I don't think.

Olivia Pinson [01:29:53] Right. Well, and just quick thought that I just had with what you said about progress and what you added. It's just interesting because when you see progress historically in not exclusively religious settings, like, say, a country moving from authoritarianism, governmentally speaking, to a democracy or representative democracy. Right. That is directly antithetical to anything an autocrat would want. Right. Like that progress requires an overturning of, you know, the turning over of a

Sam Pinson [01:30:23] new lease, rendering of power.

Olivia Pinson [01:30:24] Right. A capitulation on the part of the people at the top. And so that's. Maybe that's part of the problem within, you know, something like Mormonism is. Yeah. While progress is still being forced, I don't think, like, you know, again, what dad said, if you had Mormonism within a bubble, it wouldn't look the same as it looks today. Right. There are societal pressures forcing it to do what it does. But, yeah, the prophet maintains the whole I speak in the name of God mentality, and that doesn't affect their standing among their members, which is dangerous.

Sam Pinson [01:30:58] If I'm a cafeteria Mormon, if that's the model, I'm a Mormon that's carrying my tray through, and I don't want what you're serving. If that's the model we're going with, if it's not true. No. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] But it's a nice community. You got all these friends.

Olivia Pinson [01:31:17] Great.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] It's a great way to raise your Kids, youth programs.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:31:20] That's what I.

John Dehlin [01:31:21] The Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:31:22] I think I would take my tray along and go to a different cafeteria. I'm sure this has been said before. What's unique in Mormonism isn't good. And what good in Mormonism isn't unique?

Olivia Pinson [01:31:35] Exactly.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:31:36] You can go get it somewhere else.

Olivia Pinson [01:31:37] Right. Well, and I think what I was trying to get at before, to some extent, with my previous answer was Mormonism just becomes meaningless. Like you're saying there's no reason to go with Mormonism other than. Well, it's what my. I was indoctrinated with Mormonism when I was born. So.

John Dehlin [01:31:53] That's my point.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:31:53] That's right.

Olivia Pinson [01:31:54] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:31:56] All right. Well, thanks. Thanks for everyone's patience while we kind of had that deep. The philosophical debate. No offense to all the neo apologists out there. I. I know you're sincere and you think you're doing good, and you probably are. Who knows? But this is just how we feel.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:32:31] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive our useless cares from us to drive to listen Jo, your hearts will swell. O, all is well. All is well. Why should we mourn? I think a lot is high Tis not so, all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo. Fresh courage take our God will never us for sake soon we'll have. Oh, all is well. All is well. Oh, all is well. All is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through happy death all is well. We that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are still spared Again to see the sa. The rest obtain I will make this ch.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] Swell.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:36:13] Oh, all is well. All is well all is well all is well all is well. All is well. All is well.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] Sam.

Resources That Helped During the Faith Transition

Part 5 of 7 · Ep. 1325

Sara Pinson [00:00:00] One.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:20] Come, come you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] So the bishops and stake presidents say, leave it alone, back off.

Sam Pinson [00:00:38] Yes.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:38] So

Sam Pinson [00:00:41] then I guess are we at the point of I'm being notified that we've been patient with you. We can't allow this to go on.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] How long ago is this?

Sam Pinson [00:00:50] Just a couple weeks, probably a month ago.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] During COVID 19.

Sara Pinson [00:00:56] Did you set the date for during COVID 19?

Sam Pinson [00:00:59] Yeah, it was recently, just a few weeks back. They asked me to pick a date and I said no thanks because I wasn't planning on attending. And so he set a date for me. May 31st.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Let me ask something I haven't asked you. So I found out about you because you make this beautiful post, I think, in the Mormon Stories podcast community. What was your post called?

Sam Pinson [00:01:26] How to Not Apostatize from the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] And describe that post. It's really good. We need to include the language to that.

Sam Pinson [00:01:35] So I posted this, I think the day after I received notice that I was going to be or that a council was going to be held for apostasy to withdraw my membership. I figured that qualified me to counsel other people who might want to stay in the church how to avoid my fate. And so I included helpful tips like don't think critically, don't read the gospel topic essays and if you do happen to read them, don't read the critics responses to them. And if you do that, don't read Fair Mormon's responses to the critics. And if you do that, don't read the critics responses to fair Mormon. Remember that you are always the problem. If you can't wrap your head around some problem like why Joseph Smith used spiritual manipulation to marry a 14 year old girl. Wait on the Lord. Maybe you're not meant to understand that in this life. What were some of the other helpful tips?

John Dehlin [00:02:53] I don't know.

Sara Pinson [00:02:54] I could pull it up.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] It's a great post.

Sam Pinson [00:02:56] Yeah. And there was certainly some sarcasm and humor in that post. But in all seriousness, those literally are steps for avoiding apostasy. And I composed that list based on my apostasy on my transition out of the church. If I had not done any of the. If I had followed the steps that I outlined there, if I had not stopped doing those things, then I very well may have not apostatized. Oh, don't entertain A Critical Thought was another one. So that was all part of what led me out.

Sara Pinson [00:03:46] Say yes to every calling. Yes, stay really busy in the church so you don't have Time to think.

Sam Pinson [00:03:49] No time to think. Set no boundaries on what the church can take from you.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Yeah. Only read official stuff. It's a great post and we'll share it. And I was going to ask you. So what you haven't really described is kind of like, what role did podcasts, what role did you of, you know, you know, Jonathan Streeter, thinker of thoughts missed in Sunday school, Mormon stories, CES letter, the Facebook groups, the podcast episodes, what I don't think you've talked about what role those things played in your journey. And that's how I learned about you. And so I just. I want to make sure people understand if those things played a positive role.

Olivia Pinson [00:04:36] How.

Sam Pinson [00:04:37] Oh, absolutely. So when I was in the church, I was taught to avoid anti Mormon lies. And what I found out was, just because you become disaffected with the LDS Church, it doesn't make you a compulsive liar. These people who found reasons to deliberately choose to leave the LDS Church were telling the truth. And some of them have done great research and compiled this information, like Jeremy Reynolds in the CES letter. And I mentioned that, that when I revisited that concern that started with the race and the priesthood gospel topic essay, I remembered that I had heard of this CES letter. And then I actually read it. I don't know. Oh, well. So the billboards. I had known there was this Mormon stories thing. And so at some point I looked that up, continued to learn new information that was problematic from the interviews. And also it was healing also to feel like, I'm not alone, we're not alone in this. We're not crazy. So the gaslighting, hearing other people's experiences helped counteract the gaslighting and all of the negative energy and opposition that we were experiencing.

Sara Pinson [00:06:02] Yeah, I can't even put into words the balm that like Mormon stories was.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] If you can name some of the people interviewed, they would love it.

Sara Pinson [00:06:16] At the beginning, there were some that just hit me right at the right time, and so they're all great. But the ones that hit me in the beginning, I listened to David Bachavoy. Is that right? He just has, like this very Zen way of looking at things. And I really resonated with that at the beginning of my transition, and I just loved that whole interview. And then later when I found myself kind of shirk, I guess, sloughing off the sexism that I had internalized. I loved the whip. Exactly. Their whole thing was just beautiful and I think really released me from a lot of the prison I had. You Know, allowed myself to be put in. And then Sean Coombs. I loved hers. Yeah. I'm trying to think.

Sam Pinson [00:07:07] The Youngs. Cody and Leah Young.

Olivia Pinson [00:07:09] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:07:09] Leah is a rock star. Like, she blew my mind with the way she was able to articulate things and. Yeah, they've all been so meaningful.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Did you hear Donna Showalter? Did you get that one? No. Okay.

Sara Pinson [00:07:24] So she had the gay son.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:07:26] I think I might have listened to his part. I can't remember.

Sam Pinson [00:07:30] And I'm not really good with names as she's saying those. I recognize many of them. Tom Phillips is one that I remember. Also Jeremy Reynolds, because I was aware of the CS letter.

Sara Pinson [00:07:40] Oh, is it Ron Hubbard or Ron Hubbard?

John Dehlin [00:07:45] The Scientology.

Sam Pinson [00:07:46] Oh, no, no, not him.

Sara Pinson [00:07:48] The guy who talked about Scientology.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] Chris Shelton.

Sara Pinson [00:07:50] Yeah. Yes. So good. I think that one helped me see. Oh, my gosh. Other organizations do this.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:07:58] Like to see that there's a pattern here in, you know, the bite model where I don't just. It was just really validating to hear that this happens to other people and other groups and. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:08:14] I'm gonna embarrass myself trying to remember her name and I guess reveal the power of the patriarchy. Hartman Rector Junior.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Oh, yeah. Lila Tula. Lila Tula.

Sara Pinson [00:08:27] That was a cool.

Sam Pinson [00:08:28] That was a fantastic interview.

Sara Pinson [00:08:30] So many. And just. Just listening to those. When you're on the Internet getting gaslit or you have friends and family where there's a wedge now being able to go put in my headphones or I would listen to them. I live an hour away from my school, so while I was going to school, just listen to. Yeah, Pocatello just makes your commute short. Oh, yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:08:58] That was all wonderful. Yeah. And Jonathan Streeter, thinker of thoughts and stuff. Fantastic. What I learned, I was taught all my life that the philosophies of men are dangerous, evil, and shouldn't be mingled with scriptures. And I figured out that the philosophies of men. Like that's. Philosophies of men mingled with philosophies of men. The scriptures are just the philosophies of men. No, Streeter is excellent.

Sara Pinson [00:09:26] He's so good at breaking things down and just exposing what's really going on. Helpful.

Sam Pinson [00:09:33] Yeah. I like how calm he is. And you are also not offensive. At least I didn't feel offended. As I learned these things and wanted to share them with other people, I became conscious of logical fallacies and cognitive biases that I had hadn't really considered before, including the backfire effect. And so I was very Interested in de biasing techniques and I think a lot of that. You and Jonathan Streeter model that very well.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] That's great. Well, thanks for sharing. It's just I really like others that are listening who are new to this journey to get some tips on how to navigate it. And having you name those podcasts and talk about what they mean for you. It's just so that others can can know that this resource Go to the top 100 Mormon stories episodes. Start from the top. Work your way down. You won't be disappointed. It's gold.

Sam Pinson [00:10:39] Yeah, absolutely. As well as the published essays, in addition to the podcast episodes, there's also

John Dehlin [00:10:45] other information, Gospel topics, essays and CS letter. Mormon think there's so much good stuff out there. Radio Free Mormon Bill, Real ear polygamy. There's a lot of good stuff.

Sam Pinson [00:10:57] Yeah. D. Michael Quinn, your interviews with him as well.

Guest 2 [00:11:00] Great.

The Disciplinary Council and Apostasy Charges

John Dehlin [00:11:03] Okay, so I think it's time now, actually I'm going to stop this record again. Okay. So I think it's time now to talk about, you know, the disciplinary council. So last we heard, you were warned. He sent you the dates and the clocks tick in it's high noon and you published on Mormon stories and on your own wall, the tips on how to not apostatize. Where did it go from there? And we're going to dig into the actual. You were going to go to the disciplinary council too. So let's just go deep into the excommunication of you and your family.

Sam Pinson [00:11:41] Yeah. So receiving that notice about the council, the membership council with the charge of apostasy, that was the inspiration for making that post. And in the post, I said I was invited to attend this membership council. No thanks. I'll provide my response here, which I had actually previously done several times in my Facebook activity. So I repeated it there, that I'm not weakening faith because faith cannot be weakened by telling the truth. That's the bottom line for my defense against apostasy. So I had informed him via Facebook and I know he's a fan of me on Facebook. He knows what my response is. I'm not attending. And then, I don't know. I care about the truth too much. So I changed my mind and decided to attend.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] I mean, I guess, to be honest, I reached out to you and I said, hey, are you going to attend your discipline council? Are you going to record it? Like, I just. And I support any decision. We started talking a bit.

Sam Pinson [00:12:54] Yeah. You didn't tell me what to do. I decided that I decided on my own that there Is no one right way to respond to that? It's a very personal decision, but I decided I only get one shot at this, so I might as well attend. And I don't regret doing it, so I.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] You let him know you were coming after all?

Sam Pinson [00:13:17] I did. I sent a message to the stake president and I let him know that I'd be coming. I asked if Sarah could be there. She was interested in making a statement on my behalf. But.

Sara Pinson [00:13:31] Well. And I just wanted to be there through the process. Yeah. Not to say anything, just to sit with you.

Sam Pinson [00:13:39] Yeah. And Olivia and Sam also expressed an interest to make a statement in support. And so I asked a couple of times if Sarah could stay there the whole time. Technically, according to the handbook, for some reason I can't comprehend, witnesses are only supposed to come in one at a time. So they're not aware of everything or anything that has led up to the moment that they're invited into the room, they make their statement and then they're asked to leave. I asked if he would be okay with her being there and he.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] For the full thing.

Sam Pinson [00:14:14] For the whole thing. And he said no.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] And that's. Margi was there for my whole disciplinary council. You know, Lee and Cody were there together for their disciplinary council. Like, I'm wondering if either your stake president just blew it or if the church is now not allowing husbands and wives to support each other through the full disciplinary council. This is new. I've never heard of this before.

Sam Pinson [00:14:35] He also let me know that the High Council would not be there, which is part of the recent changes they made to the procedure previously. You'd have to have the High council there.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] All 12.

Sam Pinson [00:14:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] Plus the first stake presidency.

Sam Pinson [00:14:48] Yeah. With 15. Right. With half of them representing or speaking out. Yeah. Right. Speaking out to make sure that the individual is respected and treated properly.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] And then the other six. Supporting the interests of the church.

Sam Pinson [00:15:03] Yes. Yeah. So he let me know that they would not be attending the stake president. The stake High Council would not be present.

Sara Pinson [00:15:13] Well. And the current handbook says that you can request that they be there. But that wasn't really. That choice wasn't given to you. You were told they would not be.

Sam Pinson [00:15:22] He told me they would not be, so I didn't ask.

Sara Pinson [00:15:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] You got to think that this is starting to infect. The virus is starting to infect. So you have to think the reason. Last April, they made these changes. They stopped calling them excommunications. They're calling the membership councils now. You're not excommunicated. Just what's the term membership withdrawal. Membership withdrawal. And they're not including the Stake High Council. You have to think that that probably, at least in part, is to minimize the spread of the infection. It might also just be a calendaring. It's just. It's simpler. Less pain and suffering all the way around. But you also have to wonder whether they did that just to reduce the spread of the infection.

Sam Pinson [00:16:09] I think that was definitely part of it.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] And by the way, I've been calling this. I'm going to label this the excommunication of your family. Some people are going to say, stop that, John. The Church doesn't call it that anymore. But do you have thoughts or feelings on whether that's a meaningful change or just kind of. What's the word? When you make something positive, change a word to make it positive.

Sara Pinson [00:16:34] Reframing.

John Dehlin [00:16:34] Reframing or euphemism, Kind of a euphemism.

Sam Pinson [00:16:37] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] What do you.

Sam Pinson [00:16:38] Yeah, it's just a euphemism.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Okay,

Guest 2 [00:16:42] sorry. I don't want to interrupt the flow of the story or anything, but I. Along this line, I think it goes beyond the realm of just a euphemism because it's seemingly innocent things, whether it's, we're no longer Mormons, we're members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or this. Like, it's Orwellian. Right? I mean, small changes in language have massive effects, especially in a sort of indoctrinal, cultish environment like the church. And so we really can't underestimate the influence that these small changes really do have.

Sam Pinson [00:17:15] So that's an excellent point. And I'll just mention briefly here, in more than one conversation and Facebook post, there was. I'm not gonna say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints every time. And was it actually one of your posts?

Sara Pinson [00:17:31] Yeah, I think my first post when I was still in the church was just sharing that article, the Four Myths of why Mormons Leave the Church. And one person snarkily commented, who are these Mormons?

Sam Pinson [00:17:46] Because there had just been.

Sara Pinson [00:17:47] We're not allowed to use the word Mormon anymore.

Sam Pinson [00:17:51] So we lose credibility because we're not using the name of the. We're not being respectful and we're out of touch. Like, you guys clearly don't know what you're talking about because you're not using the proper language. Anyway, that's what the whole excommunication is now, membership withdrawal thing. It reminds me of that. And also because excommunication is medieval and barbaric, and so it's the same thing, just with a new name.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Okay, so you're okay calling excommunication, And

Sam Pinson [00:18:24] I think I'll use that word too, at times.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:18:28] Anything else? So before going into it, and what

John Dehlin [00:18:32] did you think of him doing it? Were you like, hey, don't go?

Sara Pinson [00:18:35] I immediately started having anxiety. I wasn't looking forward to it, but I was. I was supportive of whatever he wanted to do. I was. I'm just tired. Yeah, I didn't. I just didn't want to do it because I'm tired. I'm tired of. I guess, yeah, just the emotional distress and anxiety about it. So, yeah, I wanted to support him, but I was tired.

Sam Pinson [00:19:10] So we arrive and I'm invited in. They're invited to take a seat in the hallway. And according to the handbook, if I remember correctly, and they haven't changed it, there's an opening prayer. The charges are stated, the member is able to respond. I acknowledge, yes, I deny. And then there's a period for questions. If there's a denial, then there's a period for questions to be asked of the member, and they are to be short, respectful and to the point. Like about the purpose of the meeting, about the charge, which was apostasy. That's what the notice was for. So we start the meeting and the stake president starts asking me questions like, do you believe in God? Or he starts explaining to me, actually what he wanted to do. He said, first, I want to ask you some questions. Are you okay with that? And then you'll be able to ask some questions. And then it seemed to me like he was actually going to proceed. And I said, are you? We're here to talk about apostasy. I've been accused of apostasy. Are you going to allow me to respond to that? And then he. It was as if he wanted to have a conversation that had nothing to do with what I was notified to come there for. And I had to keep bringing him back to the point. This is why we're here. This is why we're here. So we talked about the High Council not being there and, oh, in the text message exchange that we had before the Membership Council, he. I had repeatedly asked, I had asked several times, what are the false statements that I've made that are part of my apostasy? And I had never been told, what am I saying, that's false. He did mention in that text message exchange that I had called Jesus or Christ a racist, Joseph Smith a fraud, and said that Russell M. Nelson was a Liar. So those were three things that seemed to be the basis for this charge of apostasy. So I was prepared to address those issues, but he starts asking questions like, do you believe in God? Do you believe in evolution? Which was really confusing because, yes, I do. Absolutely. And what does that have to do with apostasy? It was really.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] I think there are Mormon apostles that believe in evolution.

Sara Pinson [00:22:19] Yeah, I thought there were lots of Mormons who believed in.

Sam Pinson [00:22:23] Russell M. Nelson does not.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] I think Elder Holland. I mean, I've talked to Elder Holland about evolution, and he told me he does believe in evolution. So that's weird. They're asking you about that.

Olivia Pinson [00:22:35] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:22:36] So at the beginning, I did point out that normally there would be the High Council here. You preemptively denied that. And he reclined, and it looked like he was considering, do you want them? Do you want to reschedule? And I said, not at this point. Let's not. Let's just move forward.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] There's a part of you that just would want, you know, as many people as possible to hear your side of the story. I mean, this is going to affect your reputation in the community. I imagine there's a part of you that wanted to plead your case to as many people as possible.

Sam Pinson [00:23:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:23:14] Yeah. If he had asked me, do you want the High Council present? Then I absolutely would have said yes. But at that point, yeah, it was too late. With all the emotional toll it was taking. No, thank you. So if we've talked about it, remind me what came next. So I had to keep on bringing him back to why we're here. We're here to talk about apostasy. That's what's going on. And he kept on saying, I want to try to understand your motivation. Like, why are you posting this stuff on Facebook? So we get into this discussion about, I value the truth.

Olivia Pinson [00:23:55] He.

Sara Pinson [00:23:56] He didn't want to. He would ask Sam and say, I want to understand you. Like, help me understand your motives. And Sam would say, and he wouldn't. It wouldn't be good enough for him. It wasn't the answer he wanted, I guess. And so he was asking, are you wanting to write a book? Is it to make money selling a book?

Sam Pinson [00:24:16] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:24:17] Where did that come from?

Sam Pinson [00:24:19] And I don't think he was making that up. I may have made some comment in some Facebook discussion a long time ago. I really don't remember what he was talking about, but I think somebody might have said, hey, you should write a book. And maybe I said, yeah, maybe I will, or something. Some Throwaway, like a jest. Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:24:37] Or I know at one point you said, I plan on writing my experience, my faith transition down again, to be

Sam Pinson [00:24:46] able to share it with people if they ask.

Sara Pinson [00:24:47] It's easy to just copy and paste.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] They want to control the information, so they're worried about the information spreading.

Sam Pinson [00:24:53] And I think he also suspected a financial motivation that I'm kind of.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] It can't just be a matter of integrity.

Guest 2 [00:24:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] If you're trying to get rich by leaving the church in Ammon, Idaho.

Guest 2 [00:25:06] Well, that's why it's just outrageous. Like, it doesn't even matter why or what evidence. You could have said, I would like to sell a book and become a millionaire with this story or something. It's still outrageous and says something about the mentality of the person doing the questioning when the first thing you jump to is, well, why are you doing this? Because you can't be doing it for good reasons.

Sara Pinson [00:25:27] Well. Or, you know, maybe in a more benign way, just a real misunderstanding that anyone could have good motives or I guess, hard to understand.

Sam Pinson [00:25:40] So at one point he made an analogy. He said, what if? So he's a banker. What if I went out on the corner and started shouting that my CEO, the CEO of the bank, is evil and terrible? What would happen to me? And I said, well, I suppose it would depend on the basis of your claims. What if the CEO was corrupt and embezzling money? You'd have a duty, if you became aware of that, to report it. Anyway, that analogy kind of fell flat.

John Dehlin [00:26:19] I love it. And,

Sam Pinson [00:26:25] oh, he asked if I thought of myself as a Christian, if I believe Jesus was racist, which I do. I confirmed. And then he.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] How is Jesus a racist, by the way?

Sam Pinson [00:26:38] Yes, good question. So in LDS theology, the Jesus of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. He's also the head of the church today and for all time. Right. So he's responsible for. He has delivered and has called for all of the racist teachings and doctrines of the church. Racism is discrimination on the basis of race. Not controversial. I don't know how anybody could honestly claim that the LDS Church's history isn't racist and that its practice and policies aren't racist. So maybe the best I think they could do is claim that Jesus is a reformed or repentant racist.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] You're basically saying Mormon Jesus is racist. Right?

Sam Pinson [00:27:33] And my quote in Facebook was, the God of Mormonism is racist. That's what I said.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:27:42] They asked if I believed in evolution. I said yes. Asking about My family, what I believe happens after death and if I'll be with my family in eternity again. What does this have to do with apostasy? That's what we're here for.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Is he trying to gather more evidence against you? Is it a fact finding thing or

Sara Pinson [00:28:01] just understand him more? I mean, that's what he kept saying was, I just want to understand Sam. So it's possible.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] So maybe his mind wasn't made up.

Sam Pinson [00:28:10] Well, yeah, and they repeatedly told me that because in my Facebook post, I quoted part of the notice letter which says, this council will consider your recent actions against the church as apostasy. So maybe there's an omitted word there, whether they are apostasy. But as I read that, and I understand English pretty well, that sounds like what you have done is apostasy. We will consider that what you have done is apostasy. That's how I interpreted that. They assured me that that's not it, but that doesn't really fly. I told them I wasn't planning on attending and what were they planning on doing holding this membership council in an empty room, like with an empty chair, to not excommunicate me? That was the plan.

Sara Pinson [00:28:57] Right. They'd had enough conversations and had all the Facebook posts. They knew enough.

Sam Pinson [00:29:02] Like a six inch stack of paper printed out of my Facebook activity, which is creepy.

Sara Pinson [00:29:08] Yes, it is.

Sam Pinson [00:29:11] So I don't buy for a minute that they had not already decided that I was going to be excommunicated. They weren't going to meet and then send me a letter saying, hey, we decided not to do it. That's dishonest.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] It's almost like in case you might have recorded it, they wanted maybe to perform that they were really giving you a fair, objective consideration.

Sam Pinson [00:29:34] Absolutely. Absolutely. That certainly doesn't look good to make that statement. And maybe people are imperfect. Maybe that was not what was intended. It came out the wrong way. But whether they said what they said or they framed it in a way that allowed it to be interpreted as, we will consider whether what you have done. You don't call a membership council for somebody to not excommunicate them when they've told you they're not going to. To attend.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] Right. Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:30:08] They asked about your family now, how your family's doing. And he said, we're doing great. Never been more united and loving. And he kind of asked leading questions like, do you think you manipulated your family like that you were the cause of them trying to leave?

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Why are you lowering your head?

Olivia Pinson [00:30:34] Oh, it just frustrates me Because. Because I wasn't at all.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] And is that. Is that insulting to you?

Olivia Pinson [00:30:42] Well, it. Mostly I'm just mad at myself because I wish that I wasn't so scared to speak my mind for so many years, but it is a little bit offensive. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] Because it wasn't your dad that led you out, right?

Olivia Pinson [00:30:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] What was it? Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:30:56] Myself. My opinions and values.

Guest 2 [00:30:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Guest 2 [00:31:01] Yeah. And speaking for myself, yes, it is offensive to me. And it's also like, okay, again, extending empathy and understanding to this individual. It seems highly ignorant to say we're here to determine. We love you, Sam. Sam, I'm your brother. I love you. I want what's best for you. Did you manipulate your family into leaving the Church? Because no good family would do this, you know? Yeah, there. There's a lot to be said there. I won't say it all, but it absolutely offended me.

Sara Pinson [00:31:37] Just reinforcing that idea that there's no valid reason to leave the church.

Guest 2 [00:31:42] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:31:43] And, yeah, it's invalidating.

Sam Pinson [00:31:44] Yeah. And to give them the benefit of the doubt, it's possible that I could have twisted everybody's arm and somehow compelled them, but the answer to the question was no. I did not compel anybody. I didn't withdraw love. I didn't force the issue at all. I shared information, which the Church doesn't do, and then I let people decide what they wanted to do with that information. And that's all I've ever wanted. If people want to stay in the church and be informed, Mormons, good for them. The Church did not have my informed consent. My discipleship was uninformed, and I resent that. I think it's immoral.

Guest 2 [00:32:25] Right. And just last thing on this. I think it's ridiculous. No matter what the intent or even if you did, like, even if you did all the dirty tricks in the book and you manipulated your family into buy. Like, what if you said, oh, I don't know, like, president. I almost said his name. I'm so sorry. I don't know. Stake President. Did you manipulate your family into believing in the Church? Like, why can't you play this game? It's just inexcusable. It's obviously a difference in the situation. Right. There's not a hearing for him. But when it comes down to it, it seems like the only reason to do that is to, again, reinforce the idea that it's impossible to have a valid reason and there has to be ulterior motives, otherwise it all comes crashing down.

Olivia Pinson [00:33:07] Just really quick. We do have Like, I think it's important to differentiate. Like, we're talking about a system here, a system that is highly corrupt. And just a couple years ago, you guys would have done the same thing.

Sara Pinson [00:33:18] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:33:18] And so it's like, it's important that we. We attack the system, because that's what's really the problem.

Sam Pinson [00:33:24] I agree. And speaking of.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] Beautiful.

Sam Pinson [00:33:26] Speaking of attacks, that was actually something that was. That I was accused of. I was accused of making personal attacks, and I have tried very diligently to never do that in my Facebook activity.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] But you got accused of it anyway.

Sam Pinson [00:33:41] I was accused of it, and I asked for evidence of that accusation so that I could respond to it and defend myself. And the. When they clarified what they meant by that, it was that you've attacked the church. And so I said that a personal attack would be president. So. And so you beat your children or you're a terrible person. That's a personal attack. And I asserted that attacking somebody's beliefs or even their God is not a personal attack. It may be offensive, but it's not a personal attack. And so that boiled down to. Well, we'll agree to disagree. They continued to maintain that attacking the church is a personal attack because people value the church so much. So that was that part. And

Sara Pinson [00:34:45] you were asked, do you want to talk about opposing the church? That question.

Sam Pinson [00:34:50] Oh, that came a little bit later. So the first hour at least. And I thought this was going to be a really short meeting. It went way longer. The first hour consisted of questions that I felt like had nothing to do with the charge of apostasy. They were investigating my motivation for my activity on Facebook and my personal beliefs and feelings and desire as to whether I wanted to stay in the church or not. And I felt like it had nothing to do with the charges that were made against me. It had nothing to do with the reason why we were there. And all of the questions are supposed to be about the reason why we were there.

Sara Pinson [00:35:37] Felt like an interrogation.

Sam Pinson [00:35:39] I mean, reading through it, it was a bait and switch. So he's asking about my motivation. I explained that it's because I love the truth. He asked me whether I'm angry at the church or whether I'm angry at God. And so I acknowledge that, yeah, I was defrauded. There's definitely feelings of anger. But somebody. And I said this earlier in the podcast, somebody who's inside a fraud doesn't know what's going on. Somebody who gets out, when somebody realizes what's going on, they extract themselves from the situation. And then the honorable thing to do, the kind thing to do, is to let other people know what's going on. He used the word obsession to describe my Facebook activity, which I don't know

John Dehlin [00:36:38] about, that I've seen obsession.

Sam Pinson [00:36:41] Well, and when I was serving as a missionary full time for two years, or when I like all of the callings that I had, early morning seminary, nobody ever, no church leader ever told me, hey, calm it down. You're obsessed with the truth and with the church. Right. It's only now that my activity is not in line with what he wants me to do. That now we're labeling it an obsession, depicting it as some kind of unhealthy, inappropriate activity. So I pushed back on that idea. Again, I'm not sure what that has to do with apostasy. Defending my intentions. The definition of apostasy is the only two aspects of apostasy that I think they could possibly think applied to me would be weakening the faith of members deliberately working to weaken, which is a new criteria.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] They just added that because before they were excommunicating people. People for grounds that weren't actually meeting the definition of apostasy.

Sam Pinson [00:37:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] So they had to add that.

Sam Pinson [00:37:54] Well, I think what ultimately happened was a little bit confusing. I'll tell you what happened, and we'll have to see how we interpret it. Weakening faith and then clearly and openly opposing the church.

Sara Pinson [00:38:10] Church leaders.

Sam Pinson [00:38:11] The church leaders. Doctrines.

Sara Pinson [00:38:13] Because they had told him to stop. Right?

Sam Pinson [00:38:15] Yeah.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:38:17] So.

Sam Pinson [00:38:18] And I've already explained my defense is the truth can't harm faith. They asked me about who I had shared information with, and I explained that I had met with friends to explain where I was, the situation, and I didn't deny anything that I've actually done.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] These are. This is such a creepy interrogation.

Sam Pinson [00:38:51] I thought it was pretty. Pretty odd.

Sara Pinson [00:38:53] Well, and when he asked, they asked specifically, have you met with friends and shared this information? And you said, I've met with my friends that I wanted to continue a relationship with, just like I did with you, President, and just share where I am. Like, it was a similar conversation. And he didn't seem to buy it. He kept asking, like, well, I have reports.

Sam Pinson [00:39:20] Well, he said, so you deny it? And I denied. I denied nothing. I told you I met with people. And you're saying this general thing, like, did you approach people? Who are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. If you tell me specifically, then maybe I can provide some more specific information.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah, yeah. No rule of law.

Sam Pinson [00:39:39] And there's so many great and wonderful people in the church and I have so many friends who are members of the church. But that casts. That does not reflect well on the church. I don't know who these people are, who I have to assume it was a friend, somebody that I have some level of trust in that went and

John Dehlin [00:40:02] told the stake president that you were trying to take them out of the church.

Sam Pinson [00:40:05] Some kind of report. Yeah, like that.

Sara Pinson [00:40:07] But we had friends who said, let's not talk about it, and we didn't. So. Right. Like, we respected that. And so I'm not sure where this came from.

Sam Pinson [00:40:17] Yeah. So I'm not forcing anything on anybody.

Guest 2 [00:40:22] Right. And again, if I can just interject. It's even as like a young man in the church, you know, you're taught it's all about love. It's all about. Or at least, you know, nowadays you're taught it's all about love. It's all about reaching out to people who need us and bringing the gospel light into their homes. And then there's this like backstabbing, like information trading, like show trial type creepy interrogation that occurs and you don't even. You're not aware of that reality unless you've already been exposed to ideas that most people, or at least I certainly wasn't exposed to until this radical change happened. So it's just so easy for people to be sold the lie without exposure, which is frankly just one more reason to show the truth to those people.

Sam Pinson [00:41:07] Oh yeah. Another thing that came up is something like who determines truth? Or are you the arbiter of truth?

John Dehlin [00:41:16] What is this, a philosophical conversation?

Sam Pinson [00:41:19] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] He wants to go epistemology on you.

Sam Pinson [00:41:22] Yeah. And I had been. And a church leader leading up to the membership council had told me, I think this may have been in response to my what false things have I said? Question. Said that God is the arbiter of truth. And depending on what you mean by that, I either agree or disagree. I never believed that God decided what truth was. Truth is independent of God. And the God that I believed in was God because he comprehended all truth and embraced all truth.

Sara Pinson [00:42:02] He lived by it. Right, right.

Sam Pinson [00:42:03] He followed those laws. So to come up with, to say, like God decides what truth is. That's never a God that I believed in. And I don't understand what you even mean by that. So I address that. And they wanted to know, like, how do you come to know truth if everybody gets to decide for themselves? And so I had to explain there's what truth is and then there's yeah, every person has to use their faculties and their senses to figure out what that truth is. But them arriving at a conclusion does not make truth one way or the other. I don't know why that's even something that needed to be explained. It seems abundantly obvious.

Guest 2 [00:42:52] And it's such a sneaky, disingenuous thing. And I think it's subconscious, certainly for most Mormons. Right. I think that I applied the same logic when you say, okay, well, God is the arbiter of truth. Right. Well, guess what? No one, even people who say that they speak for God actually can show direct communication with God. Right. God does not visit us every Saturday night and tell us what the deal is. So technically speaking, it's the people who claim they speak in the name of God that are the arbiters of truth. And so even to say that God is the arbiter of truth is to assume, to presuppose that God is not only in existence, but that the people who you think speak for God do in fact speak for God. It's. It's complete pseudoscience.

Sam Pinson [00:43:40] Yeah, I should say there were abundant expressions of love, and I understand. We serve together. These are good people.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] It's a system.

Sara Pinson [00:43:54] It's like Olivia said.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Olivia said it's systems, not people.

Sam Pinson [00:43:58] At some level, yes, we love each other. Representing the system, though the best outcome for them would be to. For them to. Okay, Sam, you just. Okay, we understand and try to calm me down and reconcile as much as possible. So I think both of those motivations were there in those expressions. And. So I was repeatedly asked about my intent. Even though I explained it, he wasn't buying it. And another part of my post was that when I'm excommunicated, it will be for telling the truth. And that was an important. Like, the truth is my number one value. And it was an important part of all of my Facebook activity. I'm not just going to go out and bash the church. That's not my purpose. My purpose is to share truth. And I believe that. In that post, I said, when I'm excommunicated on Sunday, it will be because I told the truth. So many motivations for my activity, but with this continuous exploring, my intent and continuous digging, I guess I'm too much of an open book. I said that, like, when you excommunicate me, it'll be for telling the truth. And you want that? Yes. You want to be able to say when you get excommunicated, it was because you told the truth. And then you could see the wheels turning, like, this is a problem. We can't let that happen. And they had asked me earlier, do you want to be a member? No. And so then it was, well, I think we've heard all we need. And wait a minute, we haven't talked about the charge of apostasy yet. Oh, do you want to respond to that? Yeah, like, what in the world are we doing here? And my family had come to speak on my behalf and they hadn't spoken yet. So they were ready to go make the decision without having heard these people who had come to talk. When I expressed concern that they hadn't been able to talk yet. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. We want to hear from them. So at that point, you guys came in and maybe you guys can share your perspective from there.

Guest 2 [00:46:44] I spoke, it was like two or three minutes. I just said, hey, you know, I don't have a lot to say. I don't think my dad needs to be defended on any charge. But when it comes down to it, I think the truth is what matters here. Here's why. And if anyone's got a problem with the truth, it's you guys.

Sara Pinson [00:47:04] And so not in those words. But that was the gist.

Guest 2 [00:47:08] Yes. And frankly, after the end and throughout the remainder of the meeting, I wish I had let loose. It's a good thing I didn't though. But, but yeah, throughout the whole thing, you know, they were like smiling and nodding like my grandma would, who's an amazing person would, if I was like, I don't know, playing the piano or something, like, like it was like it was a show. Right. And, and so obviously, like that part of that might be my perception. Very, yeah. Irritable perception. But at the end, you know, I think it was the Stake president who said something like, you know, like, you're super articulate, you've got a great future ahead of you. And so I, I understood going into it that it wasn't going to be a dialogue, it wasn't going to be a toe to toe debate. Right. And there wasn't going to be some sort of like accountability for, you know, them in responding to what I said. But like that to be the response, like it felt like, you know, being patted on the head and sent away. And essentially that's what it was. Right. And so that was my frustration was like, even as people. And again, system comes before the people, but as individuals who are brainwashed, who are part of this horrible system that, you know, captivates minds in terrible ways. Right. As victims Nonetheless, when it comes down to it, I was trying to get across that there's an actual problem here. And instead of addressing the problem personally, it was this sort of seemingly insincere, just, okay, we'll wave that away because it doesn't matter to us because we decide. So. Right. There wasn't an actual attempt to get at the truth, which was kind of the whole point of the speech.

Sam Pinson [00:48:47] And now, and you didn't know when you made the comment that they had already said, well, we've heard enough.

Guest 2 [00:48:52] Right, right, well, and, and sorry, I don't want to take up too much time. But before and after and following what I said and what everyone else said, it was like constantly, like all we heard or all I heard was, you know, I love your dad and I love Sam Senior, he's a great guy, etc, etc, like, you're always welcome to have a barbecue at my place. And then hearing the recording that we didn't hear before then was like mind blowing. Like, so. So I don't know yet. So let's ask. Are you manipulating your family into believing what they believe? Because you know, we got to ask these things, do you want money? Like, like that isn't how sincere social people interact. And so that's the moment where going home and listening to that, I was like, okay, sure, system before the people. But even if it's not like their fault in a direct way, holy crap. Like that is insincere, superficial. And I didn't like that.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] I guess that answers the question is if there's a recording or not. Curtin McConkie just let out a huge groan.

Sam Pinson [00:50:02] There is one other thing I forgot to mention that came before they came in. When I revealed that desire to be excommunicated for telling the truth, the stake president said, what if I don't?

John Dehlin [00:50:21] He's gaming you.

Sam Pinson [00:50:22] It just blew my mind. Seriously, you're going to like play around with me and not excommunicate me out of spite? And he said, so what if I don't? What if I just say, okay, I'm putting my calling aside and out of pure spite, what the. Just like Sam's being spiteful. That blew my mind. Blew my mind. And that's relevant because after they made their statements and they finally did go to deliberate, it's relevant to what actually they said was the outcome. Okay, Then Olivia spoke after Sam spoke.

Olivia Pinson [00:51:04] Yeah, I was just tired. It was just, it was just gross. And I was just tired of like not being listened to by men who were supposed to like tell Me what to do. And I was just.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:51:20] I.

Olivia Pinson [00:51:20] It was a bit, like, frustrating all over again because I was back in that building that I hadn't been in for, like, a year. And I was just like, why am I. It just doesn't feel good to be there, you know, when you have, like, bad memories associated with it. And as soon as I started talking, you know, I just knew I wasn't being listened to. I wanted to say something about, like, the human cost of these things, because I know, like, you two tend to focus on, like, the. More, like, the truth aspect, which is hugely important, but I wanted to just be like, you guys realize, like, the church damages lives. And I kind of said that, but my point, it just fell flat. And what do you expect? I don't know.

Sara Pinson [00:52:05] It was better than you think. It was a good thought that you shared.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:52:11] Yeah. And then I spoke, and I wanted to start my statement by saying. And I did that. It's really difficult to know how to respond when I haven't been in here for the last hour and a half. I don't know what's been said. I don't know what would be helpful to say. I don't have any context. Like, that, to me, is not okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] You should have been in there.

Sara Pinson [00:52:32] Yeah, I agree. So I started with that, and then I just said, I think Sam and I both post on Facebook to bring awareness. I think people have a right to know the true history of the church. I think they have a right to know ways that harm is being done to people. And if you're going to give 10% of your money, make these covenants and basically give your life to the church, you have right to know. And so I don't. I said, I think the only thing Sam does or has done that qualifies for apostasy is. Is going against their request that he stop. And I don't think that's their place to ask him to do in the first place. And so that's really all I said.

Sam Pinson [00:53:22] Short and sweet and beautiful.

Guest 2 [00:53:26] Yeah. When you brought up the. I don't know if you noticed. You probably did. But when you brought up the whole. It would have been really nice to be with my husband the last hour and a half while you guys interrogated him that general idea, there were some uncomfortable glances and looks that I noticed among the presidency. So kudos to that.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] Having been through this, I just have to say I had my brother, my mom, my dad, a ward member, and Bill Bradshaw professor. I love all testify at my disciplinary council every Single one of them cried, or at least almost all of them cried. Super heartfelt, super meaningful. I wish I had recorded their witnesses. And it was so hard to just see everybody, like, looking at their watch, staring at the walls, itching themselves. They did not care about what any of the witnesses had to say. And these witnesses had their hearts on their sleeves. And it was just so disheartening to see that they literally did not care what these people had to say. It was a show.

Guest 2 [00:54:29] Right, Exactly.

Sam Pinson [00:54:30] Well, and I didn't see visibly that while you were speaking, but the context of. We've already. We've got enough.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Yeah, you had it before.

Sam Pinson [00:54:41] Oh, wait. Oh, they want to speak. Okay, well, yeah, sure, we'll hear them.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] That's all you need to know.

Sara Pinson [00:54:47] Yeah, yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:54:50] So I think at that point they said their piece, and so we were all invited to leave. And they said, well, yeah, we'll deliberate for about five minutes.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Did you get to argue whether or not you felt you had met the criteria for apostasy?

Sam Pinson [00:55:05] Yeah. So I thought that this meeting would take half an hour. That's what I was expecting. And here we were an hour and a half later. I was exhausted. I didn't sleep well the night before. Work's stacking up and, like, I guess they wore me out. They did. I pointed out, like, I still haven't been able to address what we're here for. Do you want to say anything else? No.

Sara Pinson [00:55:36] Like, you did a short, like, explanation of or justification of why you say God is. Or the Mormon God is racist. That was pretty much it, right?

Sam Pinson [00:55:46] Oh, that is.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] And Joseph Smith and.

Sam Pinson [00:55:48] Yes, yes, yes. And that. I addressed each of those points.

John Dehlin [00:55:52] And what was your Joseph Smith and Russell Nelson point?

Sam Pinson [00:55:56] Yeah, and I'll explain that here. It took about one minute. That's what that was. Me actually addressing stuff that was relevant.

Sara Pinson [00:56:05] Well, charges that were never even read to you. You never had charges read to you.

Sam Pinson [00:56:10] They were explaining. Not in the meeting. I don't think those were mentioned in a text message before the meeting. So I've explained the racist position.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] The Mormon God is racist.

Sam Pinson [00:56:23] The God of Mormonism read the Book of Mormon. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] Priesthood ban.

Sam Pinson [00:56:29] Own it. It's your religion. It's what you believe in. Joseph Smith is a fraud. That Kinderhook plates. It's on the church's website. Joseph Smith claiming to have translated something and saying that it is something that it is not. How is that controversial? That is fraud. And that's not all. So he was convicted of fraud. He was charged and convicted of Illegal banking, I think, like, he was repeatedly in trouble with the law because he was a breaker of the law.

Guest 2 [00:57:04] And if I may, only in religion is it considered like a sign of virtue and perseverance to have multiple convictions of criminal. Criminal activities. Right. That's not generally. That's just another example of the double standard applied within religion. Once you're told this guy is the prophet, you know, he speaks for God. Okay. Then everything just adds, bolsters his image and reputation.

Sam Pinson [00:57:29] Meaning the persecution is evidence of the truthfulness. It's Satan fighting against exactly the good. Yeah. And Russell M. Nelson is a liar. So in 19 or 2019, Russell M. Nelson gave a talk wherein he said, prophets always teach the truth. But I know there's an essay on the church's website that says, we disavow these racist teachings. So those racist teachings were not the truth. Is Russell M. Nelson ignorant of this? No, he knows it. He knows that prophets don't always teach the truth. When you tell a false statement knowingly, you are lying. Russell M. Nelson is a liar.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] Like, it's still not nice to call people.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:58:17] Right.

Sara Pinson [00:58:17] I think the verbiage is provocative and I understand that. I understand the offense that they might

Guest 2 [00:58:24] take, but it's provocative, but it's minimalist. Right. Like, you can't call someone, anyone, less than the title of the action they take. Right.

Sara Pinson [00:58:35] I guess. I mean, I don't like giving people labels. And so he lied in that moment. Am I going to call him a liar? No, I'm not. So it's just a different way of

John Dehlin [00:58:48] saying.

Sam Pinson [00:58:48] I would like to respond to that. So my response to that is that wasn't like a slip of the tongue, like, that's the consistent message. Prophets always speak the truth. And that's why I got that idea. That's where I came up with it. And he's still delivering it. It's not like we used to teach that prophets always teach the truth. And now we have a more realistic and honest teaching about that. It's still happening today. The rising generation is being taught, prophets always teach the truth. And it's a lie and he knows it.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] No, we've already said two things. Stop hurting people. Stop saying you speak for God. That's it. And that was one of two major points I'm sure you wanted to make.

Sam Pinson [00:59:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Stop using that card. To have all these people give you money and their time and their reputation and their lives.

Sam Pinson [00:59:39] And who knows, maybe I'd still be a member paying my tithing and giving my time to the organization. If I didn't feel like they were lying to me.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:59:49] And it was very frustrating that pretty much all along the way, there has been zero acknowledgment that anything that is bothering to me is valid, is real.

Sara Pinson [01:00:03] Yeah. And no apologies, no acknowledgement, no empathy of wrong.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] Any empathy from whom? Stake president.

Sam Pinson [01:00:13] Just like I think that there may have been some meaning.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] I can see why you're having a hard time. I can see why there's problems.

Sara Pinson [01:00:19] Well, not in this. I had one on one conversations with bishop and stake president that, yeah, there was compassion, there was empathy, and there were also some invalidating things said. But I. Yeah, I think there was some both. But here I don't. I didn't experience any empathy.

Sam Pinson [01:00:39] And with these three points, the inability to acknowledge my logic there, that I found that frustrating anyway, so they did take one minute to allow me to say those things to respond, and that was my defense of apostate. Anything else you want to say? I had other things to say, but I was exhausted and I said no. And they had already told me they'd heard enough, so they excused us and began their deliberations, which were.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] How long did they take?

Sam Pinson [01:01:19] Five minutes. Not very long. And then the surprise. They come out. So I'm summoned there to address charges of apostasy. And then they come out and say we were wrong about the apostasy. So they cleared me. You have not committed apostasy.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Whoa.

Sara Pinson [01:01:44] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:01:45] They wanted to make that very clear. And they said, we will excommunicate you because it's what you want us to do. So they turned this court about apostasy into some kind of. They were trying to cast it as a voluntary resignation. It's like a removal of process.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] It's like a resignation.

Sam Pinson [01:02:06] That's what they were trying to turn it into.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] So you resigned? You weren't excommunicated? Conspiracy?

Sam Pinson [01:02:11] No, no, I did not resign. But that's how they would like to spin it. That's what they would like me to tell the world. They are trying to prevent me from saying I was excommunicated for. For telling the truth. So they cleared me of the charges of apostasy, which I find really ironic. So posting on Facebook, the God of Mormonism is a racist, Joseph Smith is a fraud, and Russell M. Nelson is a liar. That is not apostasy. I was clear.

Guest 2 [01:02:39] Can we get a legal precedent set to establish that? Yeah. And like, if you needed any more evidence of how. It's a shrug trial. Right. Or at least in this situation, a show trial. It's just a sham. Right. It's completely fabricated. The charges aren't even been focused on. And then to top it all off, we're just gonna kick you out because that's what you want. It's your choice, basically.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] Well, that's. That's why he didn't want. That's why he didn't. Wasn't concerned about the witnesses because you had already given the answer by that point. Exactly. Oh, wait, I got into. It's almost like the Sadducees and the Pharisees trying to catch Jesus in a. Yes, in a contradiction. He had gotten you to say you wanted him to excommunicate you. And so then he's off the hook. You resigned your membership, effectively, and then he's off the hook for excommunicating you.

Sam Pinson [01:03:27] Except.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Is that true? Like, maybe he is.

Sam Pinson [01:03:30] So. No, I don't think so. People can say all kinds of things in the heat of the moment, in anger. I don't want to be a member of this church. And I don't. And I said that. I never said I resigned my membership. So there wasn't even a verbal declaration or.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] It wasn't a request.

Olivia Pinson [01:03:49] Right.

Sam Pinson [01:03:50] I was there to respond to charges of apostasy. He cleared me of those charges and then said, but we're gonna withdraw your membership. We're gonna excommunicate you because that's what you want us to do.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] That's so super weird.

Sara Pinson [01:04:04] I guess I don't understand how it works. I didn't think that you could excommunicate someone without cause, but maybe. I don't know the handbook or. I don't know. I. I would think they'd have to choose a cause.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] The camera's on your membership in the old.

Sara Pinson [01:04:20] But to excommunicate someone.

Sam Pinson [01:04:22] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [01:04:23] Be a cause. Or.

Sam Pinson [01:04:24] And that. And they don't do that anymore.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:04:26] They don't actually withdraw membership.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] This is so Orwellian. This really is. We have never been at war with East Asia.

Sam Pinson [01:04:33] What's the quote?

Guest 2 [01:04:35] Oh, I know. Well, it's like, war is peace.

Sam Pinson [01:04:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] All animals are equal. Some are more equal than others.

Sam Pinson [01:04:46] So he said we were wrong. You're not being. Or your membership's not being withdrawn because of that. Because of apostasy. It's being withdrawn because you asked us to. Because you want it to be withdrawn. So you were talking about that you can't excommunicate somebody without cause. And in the old language, there was resignation and there was excommunication. Excommunication is when you get pushed out, resignation is when you choose. And now they've merged the verbiage, so there is no distinction in the language between the two, except they have withdrawn my membership and they want to present it. I guess it's silly because I did not withdraw my membership. And they asked me, why don't you just resign? Why don't you just withdraw your membership? And I said, I don't think that's my burden to bear. That's your. Not you personally, but that's the church's burden to bear to push me out for telling the truth. And this is how they spun it, right.

Guest 2 [01:05:49] Well, and this is an obviously extreme parallel, but like in Stalinist Russia, right? I mean, you had show trials where people would be put on trial, there'd be this whole shebang, right? And then, because they've been tortured previously, right, like, oh, and they're going to confess to the crime, and this will be this great affirming thing. Like, this is like them admitting that they're this enemy of the state and the people. And it's really the same line of thinking, right. At least in this situation, is we're going to throw this. There's going to be this court and whatnot. But as soon as you had said, you know, yeah, I. I'm fine with you excommunicating me. Please do. Right. Like that was the ticket they needed to say, well, you know what? As far as we're all concerned, like, this is on you, buddy. We're doing you a favor, like Olivia said, which is appalling.

Sam Pinson [01:06:36] Yeah. So as I understand the handbook, what was done wasn't kosher. They did tell me I have the right to appeal.

John Dehlin [01:06:50] Appeal what? You weren't excommunicated. Appeal your request to. Right.

Sam Pinson [01:06:55] My expedited voluntary resignation. I think he felt like he had outwitted me or something that he. I don't know, had denied me what I wanted. And it was just silly. There were moments where we were all laughing in. Where. When he said, what if I don't. What if out of pure spite, I don't. And we were. I was like, really? You're gonna do that? And I think I said, well, I suppose we'll be back in here again if that's what you choose to do.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Oh, my gosh.

Sam Pinson [01:07:29] Yeah. So any. Anything else? That was the outcome.

Sara Pinson [01:07:40] I guess I can just.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Why weren't you. Why weren't you disciplined?

Sara Pinson [01:07:45] Because I'm a woman.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] What do you mean?

Sara Pinson [01:07:47] I wasn't a bishop, so I don't matter. No, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] Did you feel. Did you wonder, did you feel bad? Like, why are they only grilling him? Am I even not. Am I not even important enough to query?

Sara Pinson [01:08:02] Well, it wasn't for me. The council wasn't for me. So I wasn't thinking that at that moment. But yeah, when they asked him to stop repeatedly, I did wonder, why haven't they asked me to stop? I think in one text, the stake president did say, you and your wife are doing these things. But yeah, I think I didn't hold those callings of high counselor and bishop, so it just didn't matter as much. I really don't know. And I tend to be a little more diplomatic than Sam, so that could be it too. On Facebook, more gentle.

Olivia Pinson [01:08:41] Who holds the most influence in the church? Men.

Sara Pinson [01:08:43] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [01:08:43] And so you're not going to influence people the way that he is. Like, he's probably because maybe they have, like, just because of the system, you know, he's more threatening because he has a greater voice, which is sexist. But that's kind of the way it is.

Sam Pinson [01:09:00] I. Go ahead.

Guest 2 [01:09:02] Okay. Well, yeah, and that's just an important distinction to make. Right. I don't think that the stake president or anyone else involved in process was like, well, you know, the Sam Pinson and Sarah Pinson, not the woman guys. Like, it's possible, but Right. Like, at the end of the day, I mean, you're totally right. Like, when all the influential figures in the system are guys whose voice matters the most, who are you most concerned about? And yeah. Like, what does that do to your, like the stake president's approach towards the situation? You're not accustomed to dealing with certain groups of people. Right.

Sam Pinson [01:09:35] Well, so Sarah said maybe she's a little bit more gentle, which I think is absolutely true. I think I was more active. I posted more often and engaged in more conversation and was more forceful or blunt. Blunt. And then I resisted, as I said, making it about my opinion until later. And so then I did. I started personally criticizing doctrines, ideas, the history, whereas you have offered some criticisms. But I think there is a palpable difference in the tone of our teaching.

Sara Pinson [01:10:17] And mine are more social justice based and more like, maybe the church should apologize for these things or let's build bridges, you know, trying to bring out, hey, this is how people view post Mormons. Let me offer a different perspective. So it does have a different tone. But I'm just as frequent in my observations of the harm that the church does or this and that.

John Dehlin [01:10:45] Well, let's Be clear. They excommunicate whoever they want. It's their game, their rules. And it's never about what's said or what's believed. It's about the perceived threat. And the really sad truth is, the kind of gross sad truth is you weren't important enough or significant enough to even bother with excommunication. Because in their eyes, you weren't important as a woman yet. You weren't significant or important.

Sara Pinson [01:11:14] Maybe they'll hear this and then decide, oh, we gotta make sure she's important enough.

Guest 2 [01:11:19] Yeah, we all know how often the Stake Presidency checks out Mormon stories. I'm sure it's.

Sara Pinson [01:11:24] I don't know.

Olivia Pinson [01:11:24] We can watch.

Sam Pinson [01:11:25] They'll hear about this.

Olivia Pinson [01:11:26] Maybe this one we can watch people getting baptized now. So, you know, we have women.

Sara Pinson [01:11:32] Women can.

Sam Pinson [01:11:34] Perhaps related aspect of that, at least according to what they tried to present in the Council, was that I was doing these things as an officer of the Church, and I was not. I had been released as a high counselor. I didn't post anything as a bishop or a high counselor. I was just a member of the Church.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] They mean a bishop. Once a bishop, always a bishop.

Sara Pinson [01:11:58] Maybe.

Sam Pinson [01:11:59] I think that's the idea. But he was using the language, officer of the Church. And at least the way I received that, I think that has a very, like, legal meaning. The Church, I think, offers some kind of protection. Maybe not. They're at least liable in some ways, as I understand it, for the officers of the Church. And I'm not an officer of the Church in that sense. And so I denied that. And he backed away from that comment. And he focused on the fact that I am a high priest. And he can't allow a high priest to attack the Church.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] Okay.

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:13:00] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy Wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to dry to the San Jo

Sam Pinson [01:13:44] your hearts

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:13:44] will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our Lord is high Tis not, not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo Fresh courage Take our God will never us sake soon we'll have tale to tell oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. Satan. For our journeys through happy day all is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain. I will make this chorus swell. Oh, all is well, all is well all is well all is well,

Guest 2 [01:16:56] all

Sam Pinson [01:16:57] is well

Sam Pinson Jr. [01:17:01] oh, is well. It.

The Membership Council Hearing in Full

Part 6 of 7 · Ep. 1326

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:00:02] Good evening. Well, given the COVID

Video Clip 1 [00:00:08] How are you?

Video Clip 1 [00:00:08] How are you? Howdy.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:10] Howdy. So y' all are good looking as always.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:16] Time hasn't changed. Beautiful.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:18] So do you want Bishop in with you?

Video Clip 1 [00:00:21] Not opposed.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:23] Up to you.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:24] I mean, I don't think you came here to not. Did you come here to not participate? No.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:32] Steal.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:32] Your choice.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:32] Your choice. And then we'll go.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:37] Have you guys come?

Video Clip 1 [00:00:39] Great.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:40] Hello, sir.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:41] I don't think I know you.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:43] Good to see you.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:44] Good to see you.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:45] Am I here?

Video Clip 1 [00:00:46] Yeah, you're right there.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:53] He grows a good beer.

Video Clip 1 [00:00:56] Except for the patchy spots. I envy people who don't have patchy spots.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:03] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:04] Congratulations on Olivia's graduation.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:06] Thank you.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:07] Good job to her.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:09] In spite of a pandemic. She's done it.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:15] Well, shall we begin?

Video Clip 1 [00:01:17] Please.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:17] Are you ready to start?

Video Clip 1 [00:01:19] I am.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:19] Okay. So I've asked president to give us an opening prayer. Are you okay with that? Sure.

Video Clip 1 [00:01:29] Our dear Heavenly Father, we thank Thee for Thy kindness and tenderness. That we can be Thy children. Know that Thou art there and that Thou loves us. Now we ask Thee at this time. If Thou will be all. With all of us in this room. And we can all think clearly. Be compassionate and kind and understanding. Have the intentions to understand. We ask the. If they'll be with Brother Pinson, with Sam. He's able to share the desires of his heart. I pray for each of us that we can share desires of our hearts. As we're all guided in doing so, we ask if they'll be with us. And we thank thee for our Savior, Jesus Christ. And we love Him. I'm grateful for all he has done for us. We ask thee these things at this time. In the name of Jesus Christ.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:33] Amen.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:36] Well, you know how this works. You've been here.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:40] Yes, with some modifications. Normally, there would be a high council speaking for. In defense of. And we don't have that.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:50] We don't have that, though.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:52] We could have.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:53] We could. Would you feel better about that?

Video Clip 1 [00:02:55] You preemptively said they would not be attending, so I didn't bother to ask. I don't want to reschedule. And you don't want to reschedule. Do it again. No, that's okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:07] Well, the goal today, as you're aware, is to determine where you're at with things. I read a Facebook post that you put. How to not apostatize from the LDS Church. Assume that we are going to excommunicate you or withdraw your membership.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:29] The letter you sent said this council will consider your actions against the church as apostasy.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:37] That's where we're at.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:38] So it's. It sounds like a foregone conclusion, which is fine, but it just seems different that you're presenting it like we're going to consider rather than. We've already decided.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:52] The evidence, Sam, is strong, but again, we want to hear from you. We want to hear your intent. We want to hear why you're doing what you're doing. We want to hear what your goals are for the future. And if we're not satisfied that it validates membership withdrawal, then it doesn't. And we want to hear from you. Our goal today is again, to ask you to stop the Facebook stuff. But we've asked you multiple times to stop. And I know you don't have to, and you probably won't, but we want to get on the same page with you. We want to hear from you face to face. I'm tired of reading. I want to talk to you. That's a mountain of paper.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:43] We got to save the planet. So this has got to stop one way or another.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:47] This is big, and this has come from multiple sources. And so I'm very aware of where you're at with things, and you've done that. I've been very clear when I text you, when we talk. And so we're just. What I'd like to do is ask you a series of questions, yes or no questions first, and then I'll let you speak. I'd like to do that.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:14] I thought first the charges against me were presented, and then I get to say. So we're doing pre questions before that.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:23] I'm just giving.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:24] Not right now. I'm just letting you know what I'd like to do, and then we can move forward. So officially, the charges that are set against you are apostasy and a public attack on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Public attacks on our prophet, President Nelson, on Joseph Smith, and on our Savior Jesus Christ. Do you acknowledge that and agree with it?

Video Clip 1 [00:05:50] So apostasy is a cause for holding a membership council? I deny that charge, and I will provide my explanation and response. I didn't see anything in the handbook about attack on the prophet as cause for membership council. So this is. That's the first time I've heard that that's the basis as something separate from apostasy. Are you lumping that in with apostasy or. Okay, so if that's apostasy, I deny.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:26] So we'll look at the evidence that we've gathered. We'll Listen to your wife and, I guess, your two children. In regards to that. We'll ask Bishop questions. We'll continue to ask you questions, and then we'll make our decision. Are we comfortable? You'll have the opportunity to deny that at the end, just like before.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:48] And I may or may not answer your questions.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:50] That's fine. You have that right. But I appreciate you being here. And our friendship goes way back. I love you. I look at you as a friend.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:02] Good.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:02] And I have no ill feelings towards you. Can I go through some of my questions and then you can ask questions. But here's the one thing. I want to make it clear. We're not here because of doctrinal differences. That is not why we're here. And I'm not going to get in an argument with you over what is doctrine and what isn't. That is not what we're doing. First and foremost, we're here because we have asked you, as officers of this organization, to stop publicly attacking our church. Now, let me put it this way, too. As an employee of. If I was out yelling on Facebook, that was awful, that the CEO is awful and the board is awful, what would they do to me?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:55] I suppose it would depend on the basis of your like. Why are you saying that they fire me?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:00] In a heartbeat.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:01] What if the CEO was corrupt and you became privy of that? It would be your duty to call out in every way you could. Right? Right.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:10] If that's true. But still, I would be excused for

Video Clip 1 [00:08:13] perhaps for a time. Then you'd sue them. And you'd be restored to employment if you wanted it. If I wanted it. Right.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:21] So we've asked you, as officers of this organization many times to stop. You've chosen not to. And you keep going. And I know it'll keep going. And that is your choice. But as officers of this organization, we are going to move forward and make these decisions based on your answers, based on the history. This past year has been eventful, and I've learned a lot. I've seen a different side of Brother Pinson that I haven't seen before, which is okay. But we're going to have that kind of discussion.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:59] I'd love to hear more about what side of me you feel like you've seen that you didn't see before.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:05] That'll be a good discussion another time.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:08] Okay. But

Video Clip 1 [00:09:12] let's begin with these questions.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:15] And you said that I will also have an opportunity to ask questions. I didn't anticipate that.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:19] If you want, I'm welcome to questions I'M welcome to conversation, but again your questions, if it comes to doctrine and all that stuff that we've discussed on text, we can go in a circle all day long.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:36] I don't think I have any desire to get into any kind of philosophical discussion, but I'm sure I can. I didn't prepare any questions, but. Well, I have a couple of questions that I didn't expect would be I'd have the opportunity to ask, but sure, I'll ask and maybe I'll think of some others.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:51] Okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:52] So are you ready?

Video Clip 1 [00:09:53] Sure.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:54] Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Video Clip 1 [00:09:56] I do not.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:58] So you do not believe that Jesus is the savior of the world?

Video Clip 1 [00:10:01] No, I don't.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:02] Okay. So do you believe that Jesus is a racist?

Video Clip 1 [00:10:08] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:09] Okay. Are you angry with this so called Jesus in your mind?

Video Clip 1 [00:10:14] So whether there was a historical figure named Jesus who was a religious progressive and rebel a few thousand years ago. Well, like whether that was a historical event or not, I don't know. Was this person half God and turned water into wine and walked in water? I don't believe that at all. So am I angry at a human who may have existed a few thousand years ago and had some following? No, and I don't see why I would be or what the point would be.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:54] Okay, that's what I wanted to know. And we're not being recorded in any way?

Video Clip 1 [00:10:57] No.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:59] The next questions I have is regarding baptism and temple covenants. And I can already kind of tell where we're going with this, but I'm going to ask him anyway. If you don't believe in Christ, I assume you don't believe in baptism. You don't believe that someone needs.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:17] Not at all.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:18] Not at all. Do you believe in God?

Video Clip 1 [00:11:20] No, I don't.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:21] So you believe in evolution?

Video Clip 1 [00:11:23] Absolutely.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:28] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:30] That's what I want to hear. So do you believe that you and your family can be sealed for time and all eternity? Is that something you believe in?

Video Clip 1 [00:11:39] I don't know if there is anything after death. I don't believe that I have any reason to believe that there is. I don't know that there isn't. I really don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has any kind of moral authority to declare anything or seal or split apart or anything like that in life or after death.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:02] Fair enough.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:03] So how do you think families. What is family to you?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:08] What is family?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:09] Do you.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:10] I love my wife and my children absolutely.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:14] What happens after that?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:15] I don't know.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:16] I don't have no strong feelings about it.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:20] Best Information and expectation that I have is, that's the end.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:28] Fair enough. I now have Facebook questions. It's obvious ones, but I'm going to ask anyways. Do you have a Facebook account?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:37] Yes, I do.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:37] Okay. Do you help others come unto Christ or what you post on Facebook?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:44] I don't have that goal in any of my activity. I don't know.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:49] Okay, so that's a no. Do your questions on Facebook bring someone closer to Christ, or does it create contention?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:56] I have no desire to create contention. That's never been my purpose in posting on Facebook.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:02] Would you say that people are hurt by some of the things you say?

Video Clip 1 [00:13:06] Oh, yeah. There's people who've been hurt and who have attacked me and mocked me and my wife. And so, yeah, I hope that you've read all of that.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:16] I have read every single word.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:18] And you said that I've attacked people. I would love for you to point out to me where I've attacked people. I have absolutely attacked false ideas, harmful ideas. I've never denied that. I think those things need to be attacked. And where people have been hurt, it's when. And I was there, I was hurt. When the church got attacked, I was hurt. But now I think I've been able to take a step back. And if some, like in any other area of life, I was open to criticism and attack without taking it personally. Somebody could attack my politics, they could attack my candidate, they could attack my country, criticize it. There's this inability or this intolerance to accept criticism of the church. And so people take it personally and they get hurt from that. And so I would repeatedly in my Facebook activity that I'm sure you've read, that I've tried to explain to people, I am not attacking you. I am attacking this false idea. So I never intended to create contention. I tried to de escalate when it seemed like things were escalating.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Did you ever reach out to members of our congregation one on one, and give them this information?

Sam Pinson [00:14:46] I met with friends personally in order to explain where I was, friendships that I wanted to maintain. I met with them, yes. To explain where I was because I wasn't going to be seeing them in church anymore.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] And you gave them information that you wanted them to see?

Sam Pinson [00:15:09] I explained. I met with you and I explained to you where I was. It was a similar conversation like that. I explained, hey, just so you know, this is what happened to me, and this is where I am. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] And so I had reports of. And again, this could be false. I'm just coming to you going to the horse's mouth. But I've had reports that you've reached out to leaders in that war and given them information. So you're saying that is false?

Sam Pinson [00:15:45] I did meet with friends. I don't think I've said no to that. And I don't know, like, specific people or like, I don't. This is such a generality. I can only guess what you're talking about. And so I'm saying yes, I have met with friends and I have explained like I met with you. I have explained things that I learned and where I am now.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] And do you enjoy creating debate? I mean, you're a master of debate. I think that's a talent you have. But do you like the debate and the argument on Facebook?

Sam Pinson [00:16:20] I do enjoy a good, healthy discussion, absolutely. I don't enjoy contention. I don't enjoy insulting or hurting people, and I try not to do that. But I believe that the truth emerges when ideas can compete with one another, when debate and discussion is not allowed. Something doesn't seem right about that situation.

Guest [00:16:50] Who determines truth?

Sam Pinson [00:16:53] I don't think so. This is, I don't know. Loaded question. Is the right word. On the one hand, nobody determines truth. Truth just is. I've had somebody say to me that God determines truth. And that was a new concept to me. I never thought God, like God couldn't say triangles don't have three sides anymore. Right. A triangle just by definition has three sides and God can't make it otherwise. I always believe that God was God because he embraced and understood all truth. It wasn't that he decided what truth is. Truth exists independent of God, at least the God that I ever understood and worshiped. That was his relationship with truth. He did not determine what it was. Let me ask two follow up questions.

Guest [00:17:45] Is it possible that I can be 100% sure that I know the truth and that's not accurate? Is that possible?

Sam Pinson [00:17:57] Can somebody believe that they know what the truth is and can they be wrong about that? Absolutely.

Guest [00:18:03] Is it possible that you could be 100% sure that you're right about something and it's not accurate?

Sam Pinson [00:18:10] Sure. Okay.

Guest [00:18:11] I just want to say that.

Sam Pinson [00:18:14] And I have been. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] So that was one of the questions I was going to ask and thank you. I mean, there is a probability you're wrong and there is the probability I'm wrong. And who's going to determine that?

Sam Pinson [00:18:27] Right. Well, so, yes, I have been wrong about things that I felt very confident about. And I don't think that I know everything now. I do have information now that I didn't have before and we can get more into that later if we want to. But I think that there are some things that. So yes, our senses are limited and they can be deceived and everything and our eyes can trick us and all of that. But going back to like the triangle kind of thing, if the definition of a triangle is three sided polygon and we agree on that definition, and then you tell me, I saw a four sided polygon, I mean a four sided triangle once, I don't need to wait until the next life or like go and pray about it or anything. I know that I'm right and you're wrong and that's like a settled case. So I think that there are some issues where it's a settled case like that it's very clear. And then there are other issues where, if you want to put it beyond the reach of my senses and logic and everything. Sure. Who knows? Like I can't, if that makes sense. You kind of know where I'm getting. I'm getting to the point that I'm

Guest [00:19:47] hurting today for you and your family. And I'm trying to emphasize the fact that you could be wrong about all this.

Sam Pinson [00:19:57] So all this we'd have to get into more specifically what you mean by

Guest [00:20:04] all this kind of decided to do.

Sam Pinson [00:20:07] I feel with such confidence that it is the right decision that I am.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] I am where I am right?

Sam Pinson [00:20:15] I have made the decision and I don't have any regret. I don't have moments of doubt where I think, huh, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should go back. Maybe not anything at all. Not at all, no. And I'm ready to roll the dice if that's the way you want to think of it and stake my eternal salvation on that. And I would love to get into some specifics where I think it's clear cut.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] So let me ask you your intent. I've always been curious. We've talked about this before, but you kind of opened that door just now. Why are you going through all this? Why are you here? Why on earth? And you're going to have to do a very good job of convincing me here because I do not believe for a minute that your intention is what you're going to say it is. And I'm curious to see, but. And I'm just going to say that, Sam, why don't you just take your names off the record of the church and why do you want to be a martyr for your cause?

Sam Pinson [00:21:29] So you asked a lot of Questions there. I love the truth. I don't know if that's the thing that you said you weren't going to believe that I was going to say I love the truth. When I was in the church, I was zealous for the truth because I thought that I had it. And I have learned that the church withheld information from me. They lied to me, they told half truths. And so my love for the church, my love for the truth never changed or wavered in all of that. When I dedicated all my time, energy and talents to the truth that I thought existed in the church. Now that I don't believe it exists in the church, that didn't change my devotion to the truth and my desire to share it with others. So that's one part of it. Another part of it is

John Dehlin [00:22:29] so.

Sam Pinson [00:22:29] So many people have said just that. Like if I decided that the church wasn't true, I would just walk away. I would just leave it alone. That kind of response. And I said the same thing when I was inside the church. I didn't understand. And it's this pat phrase that we say is, they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. But when you're on the other side of the fence, I think it's more surprising that anybody could ever leave the church and leave them alone. And plenty of people do. Not everybody gives the church another thought after they leave. I will tell you, I think the more invested and the more devoted and the more converted that somebody is, when they find out the things that have been hidden, then the more likely they are to, as you put it, to have an obsession about fighting against the church. Right. And I find that curious because it wasn't an obsession when I was faithfully serving as a bishop. Right. When I served a full time mission. Right. Why is that not an unhealthy obsession to the Lord's kingdom? And suddenly now it is. It's the same Sam who's standing up for the truth. Right. So there's not some kind of change. I haven't been taken over by Satan. Right. And the behavior is no different. How many hours a week did I spend in the church building and agonizing over and thinking about working on building up the kingdom? It's consistent. That's what I'm trying to say. So I don't feel like I answered all your questions.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] No, you're fine. You're fine. But is it safe to say, Sam, that from my perspective now, you need to know the history of me just a little bit? I've been on the other side of this fence.

Sam Pinson [00:24:27] You've concluded that the church was a fraud.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] I came from the opposite direction. I did not believe at all. You've come the opposite direction than I did. So we've switched sides. Okay, now let me speak. So I'm just trying to understand and it's just hard for me to understand the intent when I've seen in your post that you're going to write a book about your journey and there isn't a hidden agenda of money. Are you going out trying to sell a book?

Sam Pinson [00:25:03] Did I ever use the word book?

John Dehlin [00:25:05] You have said that in your posts that you were going to sell a

Sam Pinson [00:25:08] book or write a book. I don't recall using the word book. I may have. I never. If you tell me I said the word book, I believe you. I don't think I ever use the word sell. Yeah. So no, there's never been any thought about profiting passion behind this by any of this activity? Not at all. Like, I work for a living. I need to make money to provide for myself and my family. Absolutely. So I am motivated by money. The activity on Facebook has nothing at all to do with money. I promise you that never crossed my mind at all. And if I use the word said the word book, what I meant was more like just a one time written explanation of what happened to Sam that I could give to my family and friends, anybody who wanted to know so I don't have to explain it all to them all over again.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] I'm trying to find out what is

Sam Pinson [00:26:11] driving Sam and I'm telling you it's the truth.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] I hear you. But do you see that from some of our perspective, including family members, we talked about this. When you make general statements out there and they're hurtful statements in general to the church, calling the prophet a liar, calling Jesus a racist, going after that, how it does hurt your family members and us. You put us in that category. You put us as believers, we believe and we're closed minded. You do those sort of things, how it makes us feel. Do you understand how that looks and feels?

Sam Pinson [00:26:53] So let's talk about each one of those things point by point. So I, in a conversation with you recently indicated that that's a closed belief system. I didn't use the word closed minded. Closed belief system, which is not a term I made up. If you tell me there's no information that I can receive that will change my beliefs, that is a closed belief system and many people have such a belief system. So if they received evidence that the Church was a fraud. Doesn't matter. That's not going to penetrate their belief system. They will only consider the information that validates. Right, so it was just based on. I was just reflecting back to you, what you said. And so maybe you overstated or something. Maybe there is evidence that you would receive that would change your mind. Okay. So I'm not trying to offend you, but if there's nothing that you could learn that would change your belief system. You have a closed belief system. And so it's just like saying you wear glasses. Right? It's just a factual statement about what you told me about who you are. I have an open belief system. If I receive new information that somehow persuades me that I am wrong about all of this, I'm ready to. I'm ready to come back. I'm ready to be 110%, 200% back in tomorrow. What's going to happen?

Guest [00:28:20] It's going to be a while.

Sam Pinson [00:28:25] Well, I'm honestly telling you that's how I feel. And I wanted the church to be true. As I was learning all of these things, these are more misconceptions that I believed at some level when I was inside. And I have heard so many times being on the outside, you just were looking for an excuse to leave. You just didn't want it to be true. You were just tired of being righteous. You couldn't endure to the end like, nope, that's not it at all.

Guest [00:28:56] Can I give you some advice as a friend? As a friend, you and I have gone to lunch. You know how much I care about.

Sam Pinson [00:29:01] Sure.

Guest [00:29:02] I mean, honestly, if I didn't care about you, this would be easy, but

Sam Pinson [00:29:04] it's not for me.

Guest [00:29:06] But you're going to offend a lot of people in America saying some of the things you're saying. And there's no way you're going to convince them when you say things like Christ is a racist, that God doesn't exist. If you proclaim that on Facebook, you're going to make a lot more enemies than friends. And I just worry about you going through all that.

Sam Pinson [00:29:29] So you're concerned that I'm going to be in danger? No, I don't think you'll be in danger. That I'm just going to be making

John Dehlin [00:29:38] a lot of enemies.

Sam Pinson [00:29:40] Okay. I think I have. I think that there are. I will tell you. Maybe you've seen it in the Facebook activity. There are people who have blocked me on Facebook and unfriended me because they could not abide their beliefs being challenged and So I have lots of values. Like, I still have a value system. I didn't leave the church, lose my faith in God and then start killing and raping everybody. Right. I still have a value system that includes valuing friendships and valuing other people. But the truth is at the top, right? So my activity has damaged my relationship with family members, my parents, siblings. It has damaged that relationship. And there are plenty of members of the church who fake it. They don't believe, but they, because they don't value the truth above all else, they would rather not make waves. Right? So that's just me. I'm prepared in the name of truth to, I guess, take one for the team. And if truth isn't our overriding value, then all kinds of horrible things happen in society. Are you the only one that can determine truth? If I determine if, like. And so you asked earlier who determines truth? And I answered half of that. So on the one hand, nobody determines what truth is. Right? Truth exists independently of God and anybody and everything. Then on the other hand, we have the coming to know. How do you come to know truth? And everybody has to do that for themselves, right? So you have to, with your senses, your faculties, you have to determine what the truth is in the same way that I do. And we don't all arrive at the same conclusion. So I'm operating based on the best information that I have in defense of the truth.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] So I'm still stuck. I'm still. I mean, you've told me why you're doing, why you just haven't taken your name off the records of the church. And you're still doing this, but I'm still struggling with that.

Sam Pinson [00:32:09] Sam, what did I tell you was the reason why?

John Dehlin [00:32:12] Well, you just said that until you're on the other side of the fence, you don't get. Just seems like you're gung ho to just prove a point and drive it down. And I'm still not sold on. I mean, I'm still trying to figure out why we get handed the letters of resignation. Because people don't believe and they go their way versus you. Attacking and coming and coming and coming. We're here. You could have written a letter and said why you're leaving and then said adios and I'm going to get on Facebook and do what I want to do. Sure, but why come at us? Is it because you mentioned I read something? 40 years and money I've wasted. Do you want the church to come to you and say, I'm sorry, here's a check Here's a refund.

Sam Pinson [00:33:08] Will you.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Is that your point?

Sam Pinson [00:33:11] I think that would be fantastic. If you write a check right now, I'll resign immediately.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] But because they've taken so much money and your time, you want to just go after us, Is that right?

Sam Pinson [00:33:28] I didn't finish answering. Like, you asked a whole bunch of questions at the beginning there, and that was kind of one of them that I didn't get to address.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] You've been robbed. You feel like they took my money and they should be held responsible. They should come out and tell me they should give me money. You just have that kind of.

Sam Pinson [00:33:47] I have zero expectation that I'm going to get a refund of my tithing. But. But try to do a thought experiment with me. Imagine that you concluded, like I have, that the church was founded on a fraud. That your entire life, all the time and all the effort, all the tithing and everything that you've given was on false pretenses. I think you'd be upset. I think you would want all of that to change. I have zero. I can't get that back. I don't think I'm going to get that back. So I don't think it's one thing. There are many, many aspects of it. I told you, the most important one is my love for the truth. So because I believe the church a fraud, is it the rational, logical thing to do that I learned that it's a fraud, Right? Anybody involved in a fraud who's like, actively being defrauded, they don't know what's going on. And the people who figure it out extract themselves from the situation. So that's where I am. Is it logical and responsible and kind for me to quietly walk away? Or would the honorable thing to do be to try to warn other people about the fraud that's being perpetuated on them? I know you don't see it that way, but maybe at least you can understand what's motivating my behavior.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] And that's my. That's what you know, I guess if you want to call my obsession. Because like I said, I've been on your side of the fence.

Sam Pinson [00:35:31] You said that. I disagree.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] We'll have to have a different discussion about that. But trust me, I've been there.

Guest [00:35:39] Everyone's journey is different.

Sam Pinson [00:35:42] We both have been not against the

Guest [00:35:44] Church, thinking it wasn't right.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] I hated the Church. I'm going to tell you that now. We're just going to go there. You don't know me from Adam, so don't go there.

Sam Pinson [00:35:54] But you're telling me that you've been where I am. And I'm telling you you have not.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] So I'm trying to understand you the best I can because, frankly, what if I was to go into this room and say, I'm not going to excommunicate Sam, I'm not going to take his name off the church. What would you do?

Sam Pinson [00:36:12] One of my questions is, what do you hope to gain from this membership council?

John Dehlin [00:36:19] One way or the other, we're going to get to the bottom of things. And I want to know what's going on with Sam in his mind. So that's why I can't leave this alone. Why? Why are you forcing this? Why are you pushing this? Why can't you just.

Sam Pinson [00:36:37] I'm sure I could come up with additional reasons, but what I've said so far doesn't register. Doesn't. I don't believe it at all.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] I mean, I believe part of you.

Sam Pinson [00:36:47] You don't believe that I'm motivated by sharing the truth as I believe it and as I understand. Okay, you do believe that. You don't believe that, as I understand the church to be a fraud, that it makes sense for me to try to warn other people?

John Dehlin [00:37:00] That's your opinion.

Sam Pinson [00:37:01] Sure. And you don't.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Right.

Sam Pinson [00:37:04] So all of this is based on my perception, my understanding

John Dehlin [00:37:10] this is a fraud.

Sam Pinson [00:37:12] You are being cheated.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] They're robbing you blind. I want to let everybody know what's going on.

Sam Pinson [00:37:19] As I said, there are many.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] You want to stay a member of the church.

Sam Pinson [00:37:23] I don't want to stay a member of the church. There are many facets of it. Those are two. The church is harmful, apart from the money and everything. And I've had. Maybe you've read in there, the service

Guest [00:37:39] the church does, all the social ways

Sam Pinson [00:37:42] it benefits people, all the ways it

Guest [00:37:44] helps people goes without harm.

Sam Pinson [00:37:46] So hang on, I did not say. And I do not believe that the church is all bad, right? That there's no good that comes from the church. That's not what I'm saying. But there is real harm that comes to many people from the church. And like, I know that this isn't necessarily some kind of back and forth, but do you not see that? I had people on Facebook tell me, like, the church harms nobody. Seriously, do you not think that the church has ever harmed anybody?

John Dehlin [00:38:19] So I think people are not perfect.

Sam Pinson [00:38:22] And I don't mean a bad bishop or a bad stake president. I mean the church as an institution. The ban on temple ordinances in the priesthood for the blacks, not harmful to people in the past, not continuing to be harmful now hasn't been disavowed. By the way, it was the racist teachings, not the priesthood ban that was disavowed. Like maybe because I don't know, when I was in. It went over my head too. I'm telling you what, okay, I said two. When I was in the church, I did not understand how harmful some things in the church are.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] And related to that, don't you think,

Guest [00:39:09] Sam, when you went the church, you saw more good things than you saw bad things because of the church? I think, you know, that was the case.

Sam Pinson [00:39:18] I think it depends on who you are and if the church is working for you or not. I think there's tremendous. So first of all, like at the lowest level, it's not real, it's a fraud. And so yes, absolutely. So spinning up this story that then creates good, like Santa Claus, not real. But is there any good that comes to children from believing in it? Some people would say yeah, like it's a magical anticipation of presence and everything. All the good that comes from that lie that we spin up to tell people. Right? So whatever. Everything that is unique about Mormonism I would say is not good. And that's gonna. Maybe that's an offensive thing. This is my last comment because I need to crazy. By the way, do you like your. They're new and I like them.

Guest [00:40:12] If you look around at a lot of the research that non LDs have done time and time again, they will tell you that LDS people are usually happier. People that believe in God, same thing, are happier, they're more well adjusted, they stay away from alcohol. So I'm not going to have a debate with you, but I'm just telling you the research that's not done by LDS people says that there's a lot of good things that happen because of what they do and with the way they live their lives.

Sam Pinson [00:40:38] And what is good about Mormonism is not unique. So if there's some study that shows that people who stay away from alcohol are happier, healthier, there's a temperance movement, right? It's not only Mormons who recognize the health risks of alcohol and avoid it.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] So would you be. Are you going to go to every domicile or every church and talk to them this way? Are you going to go to the Jehovah Witnesses and claim they're a fraud?

Sam Pinson [00:41:09] No, and I think they are a fraud. Are you going to go to all

John Dehlin [00:41:11] these religions and say they're fraud?

Sam Pinson [00:41:14] This is where I popped into this universe. This was my experience. This is my area of expertise. I'm not an expert on Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] Every religion, every theology on the face of the earth is a fraud. You're just not saying the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a prophet.

Sam Pinson [00:41:28] I'm not an expert on all of them, but everything that I do understand about them or I think I understand about them, leads me to believe that they're fiction. Yeah. That they're a creation.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] Just so I understand, you're claiming to be atheist.

Sam Pinson [00:41:42] Yes, I am an agnostic atheist. I'm not claiming that I know that there is no God. I don't know. I don't think I have any reason to believe that there is one. So you blend those together, and that's agnostic atheist.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] So if we were to come back and said, change your mind, we want him to be a member of this church, what would you.

Sam Pinson [00:42:16] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] You don't know. Would you take your name off the record of the church?

Sam Pinson [00:42:21] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] You just leave it as is. You're forcing our hand is what you.

Sam Pinson [00:42:26] I think that's your burden to bear, not you personally. And I want to point that out. I love all of you. I don't have any kind of. You've been using the word attack us. I am not attacking you. I am attacking some very specific ideas. I think the church has done some very immoral things. It's done immoral things to me personally. So that's all part of what's motivating Sam Pinson. I'm not attacking you.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] And I get that.

Sam Pinson [00:43:00] I do.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Because outside of this discussion, we carry good conversations and we're friends. I'm just giving you my perspective and my little viewpoint of this whole thing as well as I do this. And President did the same thing as he warned you. You know, I have family members that are in your shoes that think I'm an absolute fool for giving my time and my money and all this to this church and this cause. But looking at it again, like I said, I still. I understand what you say your intentions are, but, you know, I don't see them pounding down the door, trying to get on Facebook and. And yelling like you are, but that's them. Sure. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:43:47] Everybody's different.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] Everybody's different. And so that's what I'm trying to understand is I want to understand Sam, and I want to understand how your children and your wife feel about that. I know at the beginning it caused a lot of hardship did it cause hardship in your home?

Sam Pinson [00:44:06] There was some heartache, yeah. And that's one of the ways that the church is harmful to people.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Go ahead.

Sam Pinson [00:44:13] Mixed faith marriages, high chance of divorce. It creates great contention within a home. When I first started speaking to Sarah about, hey, I have these concerns, I'm feeling this way. And we were at the point of, I'm not going to church anymore. I don't believe in God anymore. She was trying to be a supportive and hopeful wife and said things like, like, I think it's gonna be okay. And I would have to point out that that's great that you think that that's not what the church teaches. The church teaches that I'm going to be separated from you. I'm going to be alone and damned. You will be assigned to some other worthy man after this life and on and on. And so many more things, like, because I ceased to believe, ceased to keep my covenants, that I will give everything to the church, I am now out of that family unit. My children won't be mine, my wife won't be mine. That's what the church teaches. So if you can imagine that dynamic in a family, it's terribly destructive.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] And now, how was your family life?

Sam Pinson [00:45:38] Fantastically unified. Never been more unified or happy. It's wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] So you think you manipulated that or you drove that, or do you think that they heard you, believed you, and are following you?

Sam Pinson [00:45:53] I don't think I manipulated anything. And you can ask them and talk to them. I didn't compel my wife or my children at all. I said what I thought. I shared things that I had learned. We had conversations. I never lied. I never tried to apply pressure, withholding love or any kind of unrighteous dominion to get them to change their mind. And they didn't change their minds. They kept going to church like I didn't. This isn't a Sam Pinson problem. This is a what's the foundation of the church problem. I would not have stayed in the church as long as I did if all of the messy stuff hadn't been kept from me. So there's the money, there's the lying. Do you like being lied to? I don't like being lied to. The church doesn't live up to its own standard of honesty. And the church, it's funny, taught me to be an honest person.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Interesting. Well, do you have any questions?

Guest 2 [00:47:17] I just have a thought, maybe a question. In the beginning, you said this membership council already had a foregone conclusion.

Sam Pinson [00:47:27] Just based on the statement there.

Guest 2 [00:47:30] The Statement didn't say that it was foregone. It says we're meeting to discuss it. But my point is there is no foregone conclusion going into this sample. There just isn't. We haven't pre decided anything now that we're in this. And we listened to you. You made the statement that you don't want to be a member of the church anymore, yet you want the church, not us, to make a decision for you not to be a member.

Sam Pinson [00:47:59] Yes. Is that what you want? Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] Is that what it is?

Sam Pinson [00:48:06] So I think the truth is antithetical to the church. The truth is that word was way

John Dehlin [00:48:12] too explain what antithetical means.

Sam Pinson [00:48:16] The truth is a problem for the church. The truth is poison to the church. So there's the charge of apostasy, which we haven't really. I don't feel like we've addressed yet. Like, there's the definition of apostasy in the handbook. I did prepare a response to that. And you're probably thinking, like, why in the world is he denying the charge of apostasy with everything else that he's saying? If you want to hear my response to the charge of apostasy, I'm happy to share with you. It's brief.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] It was kind of like, hey, we're going to hear from Sam. I wonder where this is going to go. In fact, I got the information. I think I understand you. I don't want to be a member anymore. I want the church to take my membership away. And so we would have gone down that road. But now I'm sitting here going, I don't need to hear from anybody else unless Sam wants me to hear from him. He wants to be done, so we'll be done. Do you want to be done?

Sam Pinson [00:49:21] I wasn't going to come, and then I changed my mind. Right. You saw on Facebook. Because the truth matters.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] I don't care about this truth.

Guest [00:49:31] It matters just as much less.

Sam Pinson [00:49:34] I'm glad to hear that. And I was where you are just two years ago. I don't think you. I don't think anybody's gonna change their mind here with what happens today. You assured me that you've studied everything, that I have learned a lot. Yeah, I don't know how you would know that, but let's just assume that that's true. And everything that I've been exposed to that has destroyed my faith. And you assured me everything that you've studied has strengthened your faith. And I asked this question. You didn't answer it. How does learning about the secret marriage of Joseph smith to a 14 year old based on spiritual manipulation. How does learning about that strengthen your faith? And I have an open belief system. Maybe there's something that I didn't think of. Maybe there's some angle that was revealed

John Dehlin [00:50:29] to you, you know, and I'm not going to go there. Where we talked about this, we've said we're not going to talk about doctrine. I have my belief.

Sam Pinson [00:50:38] I didn't think that was a doctrinal question.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] That's where you're hung up on. And I know Sarah is struggling with that too. And so. And lots of people. Lots of people.

Sam Pinson [00:50:49] Sorry to interrupt. So that strengthened your faith. There was some way that you received that it strengthened your faith. But you will not share that with me now for some reason.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] The reason why I'm here is based on Jesus Christ. The reason why I'm doing what I'm doing is based on Jesus Christ. I can't share the experience I've had with him. I won't share that. But the reason why I'm here is based on him. Even if I told you, you wouldn't accept it. And so that is why I'm doing what I'm doing. Because of the experiences I've had that are so sincere and sacred. I can't go there. So. And you might say, well why not just tell me? I'm not going.

Sam Pinson [00:51:40] Yeah, okay, And I don't want to.

Guest [00:51:42] But don't you see how every one of us in this room could feel like if Jesus Christ came to the American continent and the Book of Mormon is true, if those two things are true, it doesn't matter how someone says some one person did something wrong, that all doesn't matter. If Jesus Christ came to the American continent and the Book of Mormon is true, that's the one thing you can't convince us of. Now you may be able to convince us of all these other things.

Sam Pinson [00:52:12] So yeah, if you start with the premise that the church is true, then it doesn't matter what crazy stuff you become aware of either I guess I'll figure that out in the next life or I don't see the big picture or whatever, or it's a lie. That's an anti Mormon lie. If you start with that premise. But this separate issue, and I hear you saying you're not going to answer my question and I don't want to beat this to death, but just one more time. You said it's about Jesus Christ. So you've had spiritual sacred experiences.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] I've read the history. I know the history.

Sam Pinson [00:52:53] I'm trying to understand a part. So you're reading the Book of Mormon. You have a spiritual sacred experience. You get that witness that Christ came to the Americas, all of that. And then in a like. And then the next day you learn that Joseph smith married a 14 year old. And you told me this is on the church's website. So you're saying this is. We can't be sure. Is that what you're saying, is that we don't know whether he actually married a 14 year old?

Guest [00:53:26] I'm saying. What I'm saying is if Jesus Christ

Sam Pinson [00:53:30] came to the American continent and restored

Guest [00:53:32] the Book of Mormon, that's what my testimony is about. That's what I'm saying.

Sam Pinson [00:53:37] And I sense that you want to move on. When you said that, it kind of blew my mind. And I sincerely curious. So the next day. No, that's not what you said. You said learning about the secret marriage behind Emma's back strengthened your faith. And I don't understand. Please help me understand.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Everything that what Joseph went through strengthened my faith. Everything that he faced, everything that he's been through has strengthened my faith. Seeing what he was up against, what the persecutions he went through, Everything, everything, the whole story in general, has strengthened my faith. And you know, say what you want about it, and that's your right, that's your opinion. But my core comes from the experiences that I've had with God in prayer and the things I've experienced in prayer and the veil being very thin. Now, call me crazy, call me just delusional or whatever, but I can't go down that rabbit hole that you've gone down. I mean, you study all this and tomorrow, let's just say Jesus Christ comes to you and says, stop, just like Saul. What would you do? Stop. Just like Alma the younger, you would stop. I can't explain. I can't. I can't go there. I'm not going to. I promised I wouldn't. Not to the officials of the church that secretly told me not to. But I've had sacred experiences with the Lord that have me here.

Sam Pinson [00:55:35] And so I feel like you're not. You're not answering a question that I'm not asking.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] Can I say one more thing?

Sam Pinson [00:55:43] I realize you're stuck on this thing. I want to say one last thing.

Guest [00:55:45] You said we have pre. Made up our minds. I want to tell you once again as a friend, I love you. I would not lie to you about this. When we met in here, before this all started President brought up the thought, and I'm not going to get this exact present, but I'm going to get it close. You know, we might not do anything today.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Yeah.

Guest [00:56:06] And you know, you said 15 minutes ago or so, and you may even have been in jest, but if you wrote me a check right now, I would resign.

Guest 2 [00:56:15] That's.

Guest [00:56:15] That's the exact words you said.

Sam Pinson [00:56:17] I'll repeat it. If you refund my tithing, if you rent half, refund half of my tithing.

Guest [00:56:22] You know what we said in that office, you know, we said in that office, we're okay with everything you said you filled. That's not gonna. That's not what this is about. But when we sit in that office, if you would just quit posting everything on Facebook to the world about it, trying to get people all worked up, we would let this go.

Sam Pinson [00:56:42] And I said every time I've been asked not to post that, I'm not going to stop posting. So if that's the objective.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] So do you have anything else you'd like to say at this point? Because we're going to move forward. I mean, I mean, like I said, our goal was not to have doctrinal challenges, issues. You know, your question about Joseph and the 14 year old girl, you know, I can't speak about certain things. I can't speak for God. I can't speak why that happened, I don't know. But I do know that Joseph was

Sam Pinson [00:57:15] a prophet of God.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] I do know that.

Sam Pinson [00:57:18] And I will accept.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] And I'm not going to go further down that trail, Sam. I'm not going there. Because like I said, for eight years I've had people come in over and over and over and shown me. Maybe not everything that you've shown me, but because of my calling, I have faced the same things you have faced over and over with all this doctrine. I found this. I found that. I found this. What does this mean? I've seen so much. Yeah, okay. My faith is intact. I love my savior. I love how it makes me feel when I serve my savior. I believe in him. I'm going to move forward and I'm going to keep going. Plain and simple. I appreciate your honesty. I appreciate your candor. I love you as a man, as a friend. I have extended this as long as I tried to just let it go, let it go, let it go. I'm going to take a break. I didn't expect take a break meant this, but okay, you know, you found some things and it went out, but I expected to take a break.

Guest 4 [00:58:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Yeah. I'm going to go back and do some studying. Didn't expect the whole Facebook thing, but you know what? It is what it is. We're here and you have your belief system, I have my belief system. Everyone has. We agree to disagree and I'm okay with that. And the last thing I want to do because of what I believe is take your name off the records of the church. But you want us to. And so if you want us to, we'll move together. Is that right? Am I safe to say that we

Sam Pinson [00:59:00] gathered here to address charges of apostasy which hasn't been addressed yet.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Based on the conversation you've gone down and you've openly admitted and we can pull up the minutes, you don't want your name on the record of the church.

Sam Pinson [00:59:18] Right?

John Dehlin [00:59:18] You have said that. Right.

Sam Pinson [00:59:20] So you have. You are not going to hear my response to the charges of apostasy.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] We don't need to, but I guess if you want to.

Sam Pinson [00:59:29] You also accused me of attacking people personally. Do you have evidence to substantiate that accusation?

John Dehlin [00:59:36] I've got a lot of things

Guest [00:59:41] about all the stuff you've said there about Christ and God. I think it's kind of a personal attack. To me, that's my.

Sam Pinson [00:59:46] Okay, so I would say a personal attack would be like. Is a terrible person. He's. Yeah. Beats his children. Right. That's a personal attack. Attacking your belief system or even your God might be offensive, but it's not a personal attack.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] As another member of the church attacking the same God that we worship, the God that we love, the Savior we love. And you're a member of this church, you're a high priest and you're a bishop of this church. Attacking him the way you attack him. That is personal for me.

Sam Pinson [01:00:29] That I guess we have different.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] We agree to disagree different definitions. And there are so many people now if you're just a non member who is saying this stuff and you're agnostic,

Sam Pinson [01:00:40] atheist, then it won't be personal.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] That's you. But you sat in this room. You've sat holding the same priesthood that we claim to hold. You sat holding the same keys. You've sat being a high priest, you've done these things as an officer of this church. You still are. You still are those.

Sam Pinson [01:01:01] I am not. I am not an officer of the church.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] You are a high priest, are you not?

Sam Pinson [01:01:06] I am not an officer of the church.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] Are you an officer of this church?

Sam Pinson [01:01:11] If we called McConkey, whatever law firm,

John Dehlin [01:01:15] that's all I want to know that's

Sam Pinson [01:01:16] my ordained priesthood office. I am not an officer of the church.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] Right, but let me finish. So that is the reason I take it so personal. Now you've mentioned that you don't want your name on the records of the church. You've said that multiple times here. Okay, we're not going to stop that. We'll go down that road. We'll do that for you. But that is. And like president said, we were not, it was not a foregone conclusion. We were going to come here and listen to. And if you wouldn't have said those words, honestly, I would have given it more time. But you have been very clear, very clear that you want this to be done. Okay, so why do we have to continue having the conversation? You told us it.

Sam Pinson [01:02:07] You accused me of attacking people personally. Can I explain to you how I feel about that? And you accused me of apostasy. And now as I understand it, you don't want to hear my response. Your prerogative, I suppose.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] But Sam, not only you even said

Guest [01:02:23] a few minutes ago that you would have been personally offended by some of the things you said too. Though you just got to tell us

Sam Pinson [01:02:28] that being offended by something doesn't mean that what is happening on the other side is actually a personal attack. Members of the church are conditioned to be personally offended when their belief system is challenged. That doesn't mean that it.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] I'm one of you as a member of the church. My family are Catholic. I mean, yeah, some members are that way, but let's not. I mean you did say some, but let's not jump that everybody feels that way. I love my Catholic grandma and grandpa. I love my Catholic cousins. I love my non member sister. I love them all. And I'm open to all kinds of theology and beliefs. The one thing like I said is I cannot allow another high priest, another high priest to attack the church, to attack and say these things about my savior who I worship, my God, who I worship while he still is a high priest. That is why we're here. That is what I've been trying to get you to stop doing. But if you want to have your name off the records of the church, bam.

Sam Pinson [01:03:42] So be it. So can I make one comment?

Guest 2 [01:03:45] I'm going to state what I hear you saying, you have integrity, that you don't attack people, but the statements or attack towards the church has been offensive to people.

Sam Pinson [01:04:01] I can't.

Guest 2 [01:04:02] That's an inaccurate statement.

Sam Pinson [01:04:03] I cannot control what other people take offense at. I have never tried to offend anybody that I have engaged in a conversation with. So president's point is very valid from

Guest 2 [01:04:16] the previous position and the statements made to the church. You may not attacked an individual.

Sam Pinson [01:04:23] The church is a fraud. I have.

Guest 2 [01:04:25] You made that statement. That's clear. So anyway, I was just saying that because it's important to you, to your integrity that I see and I may be wrong here, that you don't attack people and you wouldn't attack a person. Is that what you were saying?

Sam Pinson [01:04:41] That is one of my values and

Guest 2 [01:04:43] I respect your value. The impacts of what's the fraud of the church.

Sam Pinson [01:04:49] You get the ripple of it.

Guest 2 [01:04:50] And I think we understand both sides of that.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] Thank you, President. He's had that ability. It's not that I look at you as someone that's not. It doesn't have integrity. I mean, that's what I even told you. I appreciate your honesty. I always appreciated that. And that is what I love about you. And this is hard for me, Sam. I mean, this is because of what I believe, not because you're like, oh, knock it off. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but this is churches of God as well. Okay, that's great, but it still hurts me.

Guest [01:05:24] And all of us will leave this room. By the way, loving you tonight, no matter what happens.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] It's just interesting. I'm trying to understand Sam Pinson, like I said, but we love you. Now, let me ask you this question. The thought came to me when President Simpson was talking. So when you're asked, did the church force me out or did I leave, what's going to be your response to someone asking you that question?

Excommunication Delivered and Family Responds

Sam Pinson [01:05:56] The church excommunicated me for telling the truth. And I won't be the first person that that's happened to.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] So even though you said, I don't want to be a member and my intentions were not necessarily to excommunicate you or withdraw your membership, today, you would still say that. Do you think that's a little misleading?

Sam Pinson [01:06:16] No, not at all. And you haven't heard my explanation. But another question that I have consistently asked is when you told me to stop posting, you said, what you're doing needs to stop. I've said, what false statements have I made? And that question has not been answered well.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] And what truths have you made? How do you know?

Sam Pinson [01:06:43] I have shared direct quotes from leaders of the church.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] What I've seen is you've taken the context out of their mouths and hasn't shared the whole story.

Sam Pinson [01:06:54] And this is something that I've been accused of many times that I'm taking things out of context, and that's simply not true.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] So you have your opinion of truth. We have our opinion of truth. Let's agree with. Do you agree with that?

Sam Pinson [01:07:08] If you're telling me that I misrepresented the quotes that I shared from leaders, I do not agree with that. That would be dishonest. I have not taken these things out of context. You don't have to. Like, where does the context stop? You don't have to include the entire conference talk in order to have the full context. Right. When you share a snippet and you change the meaning, that's dishonest. That's taking something out of context. And I have not done that.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Okay. And I appreciate that. Okay, I hear you.

Guest [01:07:44] But as you tell your story to others and you say you got excommunicated for telling the truth, you recognize that if you would have met with the president, the president and said, I don't believe the church is true, and maybe you even said that to a lot of them other people, you wouldn't have been excommunicated. You're telling the truth. We wouldn't have excommunicated you. We're excommunicating because you're out on Facebook

John Dehlin [01:08:08] saying all these things.

Sam Pinson [01:08:10] That's what you're getting, excommunicated.

Guest [01:08:13] Not for telling your truth.

Sam Pinson [01:08:14] I understand that. And that's like the best case scenario for the church, when somebody's eyes have been opened and they've discovered these things that have been hidden and lied. They've been lied to about. The best case scenario is that they quietly fade away, that they don't. And don't take their name off the records of the church membership numbers still there. Like that's what you want.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] What if I leave it alone? What if out of K, you're going to go see what the one thing that I'm struggling with is. You sat here and said two or three times, I don't want to be a member of this church. The church is a fraud. I don't want to be a member. But I think your goal is to have the church excommunicate you. Am I correct?

Guest 3 [01:09:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] And if I don't,

Sam Pinson [01:09:11] that'll be pretty funny.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] What if I don't? What if I pull the Chris hat and just say, hey, I'm putting my calling aside out of spite, like, Sam's being spiked.

Sam Pinson [01:09:25] I expect we'll be back here again then, if that's the outcome. Oh, man, that's silly.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] So your goal I'M not going to do that. Your goal is to have you able to say, you want to say the Church.

Sam Pinson [01:09:42] Excommunicated for telling the truth.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] For telling the truth.

Sam Pinson [01:09:47] People get excommunicated for all kinds of things. People can be excommunicated for serious sin. Apostasy is considered serious sin. I deny the charge of apostasy, and I could explain why, but this is actually going a lot longer than I thought it was going to go. People get excommunicated for murder, child abuse, yada, yada, yada. And people also get excommunicated for telling the truth.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] And again, that's a hard line to define. But, you know, it is what it is. You can say that you can believe that in your heart of hearts, and I appreciate that. Appreciate it. That's Sam Vincent. So it is. So, Bishop, is it okay if Bishop says something? Can I call him Bishop? Are you okay with that?

Guest [01:10:37] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:10:38] Do you oppose the church?

Sam Pinson [01:10:40] The Church opposes itself. So if I make true statements, does the truth oppose the church? Yes or no?

John Dehlin [01:10:50] Do you oppose the Church?

Sam Pinson [01:10:53] Does the truth oppose the Church? The answer to that question. The answer to that question, which apparently you're not answering, you've answered that before. You shared with me that. That some truths weaken faith. So there are some truths that I was sharing, not false statements. There were some truths that I was sharing that I should stop sharing. So the Mormonism that I always believed in embraces all truth. Brigham Young taught that every truth is for the salvation of man. So there can't be any truth that should be hidden from others. Right?

John Dehlin [01:11:30] You and I have talked hours and hours and hours about a lot of this.

Guest 6 [01:11:37] I just asked one simple question. Do you oppose the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, its teachings and its doctrine?

John Dehlin [01:11:45] Do you oppose that?

Sam Pinson [01:11:46] If you will answer my question, I will answer your question. Does the truth oppose the Church?

John Dehlin [01:11:53] That is based on. I mean, I can say it doesn't. You can say it does.

Sam Pinson [01:11:58] I've shared direct quotes from church leaders not taken out of context. And that's what I'm in trouble for.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] No, the Church does not oppose the truth.

Sam Pinson [01:12:10] Then I don't either. If the truth doesn't oppose the Church, then Sam Pinson does not oppose the Church.

John Dehlin [01:12:20] You just said you're in trouble.

Sam Pinson [01:12:23] I don't know what word you want to use.

John Dehlin [01:12:24] For so long, I've had the feeling you wanted me to do this a lot sooner than I've done this. Is that true?

Sam Pinson [01:12:31] I've anticipated it. I've known it's been Coming.

John Dehlin [01:12:34] You want it to happen sooner than it's happening.

Sam Pinson [01:12:36] I feel like I've already answered that question.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] I don't remember that. Did you. In a perfect Sam scenario, would this have. Did you want this? In December? November.

Sam Pinson [01:12:48] Timing seems just right. Inspired. I'm not trying to be offensive.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] I'm not offended. I just think it's funny.

Sam Pinson [01:12:59] I think it's funny. There's some funny things going on here.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] Everyone can see the intent here. And so it's hard for me to move forward because I see what you're doing and I don't want to do it. Yeah, because you're going to go out and claim something that's not true and okay, Sam Hinson got excommunicated for telling the truth.

Sam Pinson [01:13:23] Then you've got to convince me, or at least what are the false statements? I maintain that I have only shared true things. And you say, well, truth is in the eye beholder. Like, how do you know? You've got your version, I've got my version. What are the false statements that I think are true that you think are false? What are they? Maybe we won't agree on Christ is racist. Okay, I'd like to address that.

John Dehlin [01:13:53] No, we're not going to go there.

Sam Pinson [01:13:54] So I can't defend the specific charges that you make against me. I want to defend myself against the statement that I'm saying false things.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] Well, our goal was not to go on the doctrine. We wanted you to just ask if you would stop posting.

Sam Pinson [01:14:16] I will not, as a member of

John Dehlin [01:14:19] the church, if you would stop posting. But obviously that is not your intent and I know we see what your intent is. And so I think we're good. I think we have enough. We don't need to go into any more details. We don't need to listen to any more things. We see where you're coming from. We've heard you. We can go round and round, over and over and over, but I think we're good. I think we're done.

Sam Pinson [01:14:48] So specific charges of me making false statements have been made, but I will not be given an opportunity to respond to them.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Go ahead. Okay, I'll let you do that.

Sam Pinson [01:14:59] So I did say the God of Mormonism is racist. And so my defense is very, or my explanation is very simple and straightforward. Racism is discrimination on the basis of race. If we agree on that, the God of Mormonism discriminates on the basis of race. Priesthood ban, it's all over in the scriptures. Therefore, the God of Mormonism is racist. It doesn't even seem controversial to Me. We knew you felt that way because we actually read a lot of that.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] Yeah, we read that. And being now, if we're going to pull the race card, I mean, I'm Mexican or we could go down that road all the way we want and so forth.

Sam Pinson [01:15:46] But. Okay, I don't know what that has to do with the God of Mormonism or what you mean by that.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] Well, I guess if you're saying then I'm cursed, right.

Sam Pinson [01:15:56] Because I think the whole church is a fraud. The church has taught that the Lamanites, their skin would become white as they became righteous.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] So I think we agree to disagree. So Joseph Smith is a fraud. We've already heard that from you. We already know that that's how you feel in your heart. President Nelson is a liar.

Sam Pinson [01:16:18] Can I respond to that?

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Sure.

Sam Pinson [01:16:20] President Nelson recently said, among other things, prophets always teach the truth. And that is something that I believed. And it actually led to me leaving the church because. No longer attending, no longer believing. Right. The race and the priesthood gospel topic essay disavows past teachings that were presented as Thus saith the Lord. Like this is from God. Right. So no, President Nelson, prophets do not always teach the truth. And he knows that knowingly making a false statement is lying. Ergo, President Nelson is a liar.

John Dehlin [01:17:09] I've heard you agree to disagree, but I heard you.

Sam Pinson [01:17:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] What else would you like to say?

Sam Pinson [01:17:15] Well, with. Joseph Smith is a fraud. You're familiar with the Kinderhook plates. He claimed to have translated a portion of a 19th century fabrication. Clear evidence of fraud right there. He was also convicted of fraud, illegal banking. He was constantly in trouble with the law because he was a fraud in breaking the law. Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] Anything else you'd like to say?

Sam Pinson [01:17:48] There was more here. That's good because I didn't expect this part would take this long. I didn't like they're expecting to have an opportunity. I don't think they're going to say anything super long, but I would appreciate being like. It would be upsetting if I went out there and said they're not going to hear you. Yeah. So I mean, it's been a long time. We could ask them. Hey, do you want to. Do you still want to say something?

John Dehlin [01:18:18] So do you want them to come in by themselves? How do you want them? Do you want to do a one on one or do you want to be here with them? Or how do you.

Sam Pinson [01:18:24] I would like to be here. You're the one making the calls. If they could all come in that'd be great. I know the handbook says one at a time. Whatever you.

Guest [01:18:35] Why don't we just invite the three of them in?

Sam Pinson [01:18:36] Not have a big circuit, see if they want to.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Would you see where

Guest [01:18:42] Sam.

Sam Pinson [01:18:43] Go out in the hall and invite them in.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] Yeah. Do we want to switch places?

Guest [01:18:46] That might be the best.

Sam Pinson [01:18:47] I'm not going to. I don't get to hear what they say.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] Are you okay with that? Do you want to hear from them?

Guest 2 [01:18:55] I think Sam should be here.

Sam Pinson [01:18:57] Whether we do one of them or all of them.

Guest 2 [01:18:59] It'd be nice for Sam to be here.

John Dehlin [01:19:00] How would you prefer?

Sam Pinson [01:19:02] I don't know exactly what they're going to say. I would like to hear what they have to say, if that's allowed.

Guest [01:19:08] Do you want them all here at the same time?

Sam Pinson [01:19:09] President or one by one?

John Dehlin [01:19:10] One by one, all together.

Sam Pinson [01:19:11] I think it might go quicker and simpler if everybody came in. But whenever you want.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] There you.

Guest [01:19:24] Sit, wherever you want.

Guest 2 [01:19:26] Welcome. Welcome. Hi.

Sam Pinson [01:19:30] That's a long time.

Guest 4 [01:19:32] Yes.

Sam Pinson [01:19:32] A little longer than anticipated.

Guest 4 [01:19:34] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:19:35] Thank you for being patient.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] Thank you for being here. So Sam said that you guys would like to say something. And so we'll just turn the time over to you.

Sam Pinson [01:19:47] Go from there.

Guest 4 [01:19:49] I'll go ahead and start. Sure.

Guest 5 [01:19:51] Okay. I don't have anything super fancy to say, I guess within the parameters of what this meeting, as I understand it, is meant to be about. I'll just talk about what I see the relationship between my dad being an apostate and the church and what the truth, what all of that means. So obviously, as I understand it or as I was taught and as I believe the Church's doctrine teaches, truth is essential to the Church and everything that it believes in and teaches. And it seems to me that it would only be problematic for any member of such an organization which stands for the truth in such a manner, to be sharing ideas or opinions if they were contrary to the truth. And as again, as far as I'm aware, nothing that my dad has shared has in fact been contrary to the truth, as far as I'm aware, from all the sources, including those that do not explicitly agree with everything the Church teaches. The Church tends to be inconsistent, tends to be deceptive, has in the past changed or disavowed its positions on things without any regard for true truth. It seems that if there is any inconsistency in truth, it's not coming from my dad. It's coming from the organization that calls itself the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I guess to conclude there's a German philosopher named Arthur Schopenhauer something along those lines. He says all truth passes through three phases. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. And thirdly, it is accepted as self evident. I think that that perfectly encapsulates the relationship again between what my dad has been sharing, what the church teaches, and what stance is in this situation. I think I can speak somewhat accurately for my dad when I can say, if not ridicule, he certainly opposed or wished that some of the contrary things that he learned to the Church's teachings had been true. I'm sure that there was a time where he wished all the doubts and concerns could have gone away, although I'm sure that's not his position anymore. I'll just say that my dad has come to the point where he has accepted what he sees as the truth as self evident. And frankly, I believe that the Church does that on a consistent basis. We see the Church consistently and continuously ridicule or oppose, violently or not the truth, and then eventually come to determine that truth as being self evident. So I hope that. Obviously, I don't think I have any power to change your perceptions, and that's obviously not the point of this meeting, but that's all I have to say. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Incredibly well spoken.

Guest 2 [01:22:58] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:22:58] You too. Incredible kids. You have a bright future ahead.

Guest 2 [01:23:03] How old are you?

Guest 5 [01:23:05] Sixteen, actually.

Guest 2 [01:23:06] I don't know how you learned to speak so well, but well done.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] You know, I want to make something real quick, real clear. I love you all. This is not personal. Your dad and I, we talked about that, quite frankly, today, and we all love your dad. And we're going to try to do what he wants us to do, and we're going to do that.

Guest 6 [01:23:32] So.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] Olivia, would you like to say something?

Guest 3 [01:23:38] Yeah. Hi. Hello.

Guest 4 [01:23:42] I just.

Guest 3 [01:23:44] Yeah, I'll just sit.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] Yeah, that's fine.

Guest 3 [01:23:47] Yeah. So I just. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:23:50] Well.

Guest 3 [01:23:51] Okay. When I was 13, I started to have questions and there were questions like, why does the Book of Mormon say that that sounds kind of racist? Or why did the Church used to say that and now we say this and everyone's pretending like it never changed. Or, you know, all these things are. Everyone's saying this is God. But to me, like, it's just. I saw, like I saw that God was subjective and I didn't want to think that he was, you know, because you're supposed to read scriptures. My God is objective. But so I was really young. I mean, I was 13, 12,

Guest 4 [01:24:35] you

Guest 3 [01:24:35] know, I started to ask questions like, why do I feel this way about a girl at my school. And why is it supposed to be so bad that I feel this way? And I didn't have anyone to talk to. I mean, we just moved here. All my friends were, you know, Mormon. My dad was bishop. So I was very, very trapped. And I know a lot about silencing. I know what it feels like to be silenced. So I'm not here to like defend my dad because he can do that and I don't think he needs any defending. I mean, he's just sharing his perceptions. And I just, I see a world where this doesn't have to be divisive. Like it doesn't have to be cause for exclusion. And it is right now. And the church is not going to go away. Obviously. There's so much good in the church, right. And that's why I was trapped for so long, because I want it that good, you know, And I still, like, the thing is I have it still, but I just have a problem when I just, I was silenced for so long. And I mean, you wouldn't believe the amount of forgiveness it took when my dad left the church to be like. But you never listened to me all these years. You never listened to me. And I guess I just, I, I guess just thinking about this, no one would have called 13 year old me an apostate, right? But I was asking these same exact questions. But it's easier to control kids and it's easier to, you know, as a kid, pretty much everyone around you is an authority because they're all older and more powerful than you. And I mean, these are just honest questions. And I appreciate people within the church who are willing to talk about them. I think that's really important. And I think the church isn't going to go away. And so we need sort of reform like within the church. It is going to stay. And I think that's okay. People need to acknowledge that the church needs to be transparent and willing to talk about these issues. So I'm grateful for people who do do that. That's pretty much it.

Guest 2 [01:27:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] Awesome. Thank you for sharing. And you know, just from me to you, I care about you and I'm sorry that you fell. I weigh at 13 and you're awesome. You are so intelligent as well. So thank you. Thank you for loving your father the way you love him. He's awesome. All right. Sister Benson.

Guest 4 [01:27:47] Well, I feel like it's hard to know how to respond or what to say when I haven't been here the last hour and a half. So I'm not sure what has been said or what, but I guess I would just say, as I'm sure you all know, Sam is a person of integrity. Truth matters to him. I think both of us have been posting on Facebook in an attempt to increase awareness. I think that there's a pattern in the church of trying to control information, trying to paint things in a way that is not accurate. And I don't think that's fair. I think that people have a right to know, especially when they give 10% of their money, hours of their lives, make covenants. And so I feel like people should know. I feel like the church is trying to become more transparent, but that obviously there's still that pattern continuing because we're all here today. And I think when I look at the handbook, it sounds like the only thing he's done is be in opposition. When both of you asked him to stop, I just don't feel like. That anyone needs to ask him to stop, I guess. And so I feel like people are in charge of their own faith, and if truth disturbs that faith, that's something they need to look at. And I don't think that's on Sam. Yeah, I can't think of anything else. And so I guess that's it.

Guest 5 [01:29:52] Wonderful.

Guest [01:29:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:29:53] Thank you so much. You guys are awesome. Thank you for being patient with us as we spoke and discussed here. We didn't intend it to go so long.

Sam Pinson [01:30:03] Sorry for my role.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] We couldn't stop. So, again, we love you, and you're always welcome in my home. Personal home. You're always welcome in my personal circle.

Guest 2 [01:30:21] My compliment to you is it's obvious how much you love each other. And your dad, before you came in, got to express his love for his family. Your dad's a man of integrity,

Guest [01:30:37] loves his family,

John Dehlin [01:30:40] and he loves us. I don't feel that he has any hurtful thoughts or feelings towards us at all. And that is very clear.

Guest 2 [01:30:48] Yeah, it's mutual.

John Dehlin [01:30:50] Thank you. Do you want us to proceed with them here?

Sam Pinson [01:30:55] No, we don't do it alone.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] We probably want to do it alone. Okay. So we're gonna.

Sam Pinson [01:31:00] I need to go out now, deliberate.

John Dehlin [01:31:02] Or we'll deliberate for maybe five minutes.

Sam Pinson [01:31:06] How about if we let them go

John Dehlin [01:31:07] out and can you visit us in

Sam Pinson [01:31:08] for just one second?

John Dehlin [01:31:09] Yeah, that'd be great.

Guest 2 [01:31:09] Then we'll be okay.

Sam Pinson [01:31:12] Thank you.

Guest 4 [01:31:13] Thank you.

Guest 6 [01:31:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:31:21] Apple bumps there.

Guest 2 [01:31:28] My only thought was this may not have been necessary. If there was anything else Sam wanted.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:31:34] Comment or after your family comments,

Guest 6 [01:31:42] There's

Sam Pinson [01:31:43] Plenty more we could talk about.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] It's taking longer than the things are how they've been.

Guest 2 [01:31:50] You're comfortable with what the outcome is most likely going to be or not?

Guest 5 [01:31:55] I think so.

Guest 2 [01:31:56] I mean, based on your request, it

Sam Pinson [01:31:57] makes it pretty easy.

Guest 2 [01:31:58] Doesn't mean it will be exactly that. Maybe something changes.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:32:04] The thing that I really admire about you, Sam, is

Sam Pinson [01:32:13] we have different belief

Guest 2 [01:32:14] structures, obviously, and we're both moving towards truth. And you define what you think you haven't defined. You've identified what truth is as we go down and identify ours. But we're grateful for your friendship. In all seriousness. That's just. And to be able to separate that. Most people can't do that, Sam.

Sam Pinson [01:32:39] I have experienced the inability to separate that. There'll be a lot of people that can't.

Guest 2 [01:32:43] And it doesn't mean it's not hurtful. There are different things from both sides. Sure. But we know how to move forward. We know what's best for what's best for your family. Does that make sense?

Sam Pinson [01:32:57] Absolutely. And I'm glad. I appreciate in everybody that it exists. I appreciate the ability to separate. Like, we disagree on this and that, but we can still value each other as people. We can still be friends. We still have a lot in common. And so. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] You know, I like that you see that we have something in common, because I would say that in my own circle of my family, I'm more of the one that goes with my beliefs. I'm not a follower of my own circle. I do what I feel is right. I do what I believe is right and that we haven't called. And I appreciate that. I've always told you that. I've been called strict. I've been called naive. I've been called a baby. I've been called all kinds of names in my own family circle because of how I live and how I want to live and how I do things. And so we can look at it and say we're very similar in that way. And it's hurtful, hard to stand up to your own mother and say, mom, I don't agree. And the treatment you get from that is hard. And, you know, it's difficult. So, you know, there's a lot of similarities there. And, you know, everything I've done has been done to try it out, to reach out to you and love you and give you enough time to make sure. But I think you've known for a while what you feel and what you know to be true. So, you know, I think this is overdue, if I'm thinking right. And we'll move forward. We'll do what you have asked the church to do, and we'll go and discuss that and make sure that all three of us are on board and come back and finalize this. President, do you have anything? No, I don't.

Guest 4 [01:35:13] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] So we'll be right back. You can hang here. You can go in there, whatever you want. Go be with your family. Thank you so much for being here tonight, for taking the time to be here. We appreciate it. First of all, we want to admit that the charge on apostasy was wrong. And, you know, based on what you told us, how you explained those things, we understand. And, you know, like President said, we were strongly considering not taking your name off the records of the church. But based on your conversation and your desire to have the church take your name off its records, you really wanted that tonight. We feel we are going to, because that's what you encouraged us to do. As you explained why you said those things and what you said. Okay, those. Those are valid points that can be argued right and left. And you have your opinion, I have my opinion. We were wrong. You're not being. Your membership's not being withdrawn because of that, and it's being withdrawn because you asked us to, because you want to be withdrawn. And based on that being repeated over and over tonight, we will do that. So it hurts me to say that I don't want to do that. I have extended this as long as I possibly could. I've tried to obviously ask you to change and stop and stop just because I didn't. I know what other people will do and feel, and I just wanted you to be okay. But as you've mentioned tonight that you feel like you should voice, and that is fine. I mean, we can't stop that. We won't stop that. And you're right. Based on the evidence that we've heard tonight, it's a matter of opinion on those things. And it does in general. Out general. In the general terms, yeah, we can get offended by that and other people can, too. And so our walls go up. They do. But when we asked you, do you want your name to be removed? You said you want the church to remove your name. Okay, we can't keep that. I mean, that's what you want. So we'll do that.

Sam Pinson [01:38:07] So

John Dehlin [01:38:10] as effective immediately, then you know, you're no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We love you. We will accept you back anytime you want to Come back. We want what's best for you and your family. We don't want to see you unhappy. This brings you happiness. You don't want to have your name tied to the church, then we will honor that and we will move forward that way and go from there. Do you have anything that you would like to say?

Sam Pinson [01:38:47] Thank you. Thank you again for your friendship. I know the handbook also says that even after somebody has had their membership withdrawn or they've been excommunicated by that you are to continue to minister to them. I want to keep being your friends. I do not want any more. Hey, you're contacting me as Stake President. You're contacting me as bishop. I want to be your friend, but it's not a. I'm reaching out to Sam as bishop.

John Dehlin [01:39:18] Fair enough.

Sam Pinson [01:39:18] Or as a common judge. Can we do that?

John Dehlin [01:39:20] Yeah, we can do that. Absolutely. By chance, you like golf.

Sam Pinson [01:39:26] I. I think the last time I played golf was as a scout when

John Dehlin [01:39:29] I was by chance.

Sam Pinson [01:39:30] You like steaks?

John Dehlin [01:39:31] I mean, I'm a steak eater.

Sam Pinson [01:39:32] Steak is good.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] We can be friends for the rest of our lives.

Sam Pinson [01:39:36] Absolutely. We also got a new golf. We did a tandem.

John Dehlin [01:39:42] It's a tandem.

Sam Pinson [01:39:43] Bites where you sit down.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] It's pretty cool.

Guest 4 [01:39:45] We also have homemade horseradish in our fridge right now. It's really good on steak.

John Dehlin [01:39:51] I'm not the very best at holding my horse. He is a good cook. He makes a killer rice. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [01:40:02] But we.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Cheesecake and all of it. Basically, whatever he makes.

Sam Pinson [01:40:07] And chicken, he needs to go start

John Dehlin [01:40:09] his own little shop or bakery or something that's fancy.

Sam Pinson [01:40:14] Do you really think of that? What? Are you really thinking of that? Oh, no. I hope it doesn't come to that. Well, we love you and you are a wonderful family.

John Dehlin [01:40:24] You're so close together and we just know you'll stay that way because that's who you are. Thank you.

Guest [01:40:30] Keep doing a great job of raising your kids.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] And you. Any of you can come to, if you want to put it that way. And I will do my best to help in anything you need. But you're always welcome. Always, Seth. And no hard feelings on my end and no hard feelings on yours. I love you, Sam.

Sam Pinson [01:40:55] I guess I just want to repeat that and clarify. When I stopped going to church, my ministering brother asked. I don't think he asked me. Maybe I wasn't available or something, but asked Sarah, hey, what's Sam's feeling on ministering visits? And I had expressed no, thank you. Like I'm my ministering brother. Happy to have continue to interact with me as a friend. But I don't want it to be an assignment or ministering brother kind of thing. And I don't know if there was a misunderstanding, miscommunication, but there's been like zero, nearly zero interaction since that message was received by him.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] So.

Sam Pinson [01:41:44] That's not what I'm saying. It's not that I don't want any interaction or anything. I hope that's clear.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Yeah, that makes sense to you? Makes sense to me. And you'll let your members know? I mean, we will probably tell them. I mean, they're going to ask. I mean, we're going to tell him he is no longer a member of the church. And that's going to be hard to

Sam Pinson [01:42:11] not warn them to. He's an apostate. Warn them to stay away. No, I know. That's in the handbook as well. And that is one of the outcomes that come.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] And like I told you tonight, that's not why we have admitted that you have your opinion, I have mine. We have our opinions, you have yours. Your definition of truth versus mine is different. And so your membership is being withdrawn because you want it to be. And that's what we're doing. And we'll tell them simply, you're no longer a member. You can hang out with him, you can do whatever you want, but he's no longer a member. And that will go from there. Does that make sense? Okay. Enjoy whatever rest of the night you have. We appreciate you coming in. Appreciate you guys coming. Oh, yeah. You do have the right to contest for 30 days. You can contest. If it does get contested, it'll go to the first presidency. So if you want this to go to them, it's your choice. You can do that. And then. Do we want to close with prayer? Let's close with a prayer. Are you guys okay with that? Comfortable with that?

Guest 4 [01:43:27] Of course.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] Okay, who would like to pray? Any volunteers? Just wanted to see if anyone from Vincent family wanted to. So, Bishop, would you pray?

Guest 6 [01:43:41] Absolutely. Our Eternal Father in heaven, we humbly bow our heads this day and give you thanks for all of our many blessings. We're thankful for friendship. We're thankful for the love which we have felt tonight. We're thankful for the Pinson family and our association and friendship with them. We ask thee that please bless them with health and strength. Bless their family with love and kindness. And bless them that they will be able to continue on this close, tight knit journey that they have within their family. That they are friends, that they are close with each other and that they support and love each other. We're grateful to thee, Father, for the teachings of Thy Son, Jesus Christ. We acknowledge him as our Savior and Redeemer and are thankful that he came to this earth to teach us about love and kindness and friendship. And we ask Thee to please help us that we may do our best as we strive to follow Thee and Thy Son. And this we humbly pray and ask, and do so in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Reflections After Excommunication and Final Words

Part 7 of 7 · Ep. 1327

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:00] One.

Guest [00:00:20] Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] When it was all said and done, when it was all over, were you glad you went? And what were your. What were your thoughts and feelings leaving the building?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:00:42] And.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] And since.

Sara Pinson [00:00:46] Well, when he said the words, effective immediately, you're no longer a member of the church, I. I felt a lot of happiness, feeling like maybe now we can move on, maybe we can put this behind us. We've started building a new life that I really love and feeling a lot of freedom and joy and trust in myself and my family. And so I'm ready to start that. And so I felt good walking out of it, just hoping we can start.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] What about the actual disciplinary council itself? Did you have thoughts? Margi resigned the next day. That's how disturbing it was to Margi.

Sara Pinson [00:01:31] Well, we had our resignation papers signed and notarized. We're just.

Sam Pinson [00:01:35] They're ready to go.

Sara Pinson [00:01:36] I haven't submitted them yet.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] But what was your. What is your response to the process, to the disparate council process?

Sara Pinson [00:01:42] It was ridiculous. I don't know what you mean. My response?

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Well, what is your overall assessment of the disciplinary council process?

Sara Pinson [00:01:51] I thought they wanted to isolate him. They were afraid of having me in the room for some reason. It was more of an interrogation. It didn't follow even what the handbook says to do. Yeah. And I. And they didn't accept his answers to their questions.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] And

Sara Pinson [00:02:19] honestly, knowing those men, I do think that they're good men, but that was a side of them I didn't like seeing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] How did it feel?

Sara Pinson [00:02:32] It did feel quite personable. It wasn't, like, cold and harsh. Well, I wasn't in there for that part. I mean, okay, I've heard the recording. We've already got out there. There's a recording.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:02:43] I'm sorry.

Sara Pinson [00:02:44] So I did listen to the recording. And. And that was. Yeah. Okay. So after I was in there as a witness, I thought, oh, that was quite personable, because I've heard stories about people not making eye contact and being very, like, stoic and strange. But after listening to the recording, I was blown away.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] By what?

Sara Pinson [00:03:04] By the questioning? By the not receiving his answer, by repeatedly asking the question over and over again and saying, I have reports. They may be false, but I have reports. That's really threatening feeling. And I was mostly troubled by the fact that our bishop was there, because since he's a high priest, I knew it would be a stake council. And I was glad because our bishop is our good friend. And I didn't want him there, so. And I could tell the process was painful for him, so I was angry and sad that he was there. He didn't need to be there. I'm not sure why he was there because I think that according to the handbook, it's not necessary. So that was probably the worst part,

John Dehlin [00:04:00] because that damages your friendship. Right. Your relationship, or potentially does.

Sara Pinson [00:04:03] Yeah. And I know he sees us differently.

Sam Pinson [00:04:06] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:04:06] And I could just feel that he

John Dehlin [00:04:09] wasn't able to be fully honest, you're saying. Or authentic.

Sara Pinson [00:04:12] No. He views us differently than he did before. Like there is a wedge.

Sam Pinson [00:04:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] It drove a wedge between you and your friends.

Sara Pinson [00:04:19] Yeah. Which maybe was already there, but seeing it like that and hearing the questions he asked Sam, and it was just hard. Hard to hear and hard to see that change.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] This guy's got to live within a couple blocks of you, right? Like.

Sara Pinson [00:04:36] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] Because that's part of what's just so toxic about this is it's all. It's all your neighbors. It's all these people you've known forever. You've babysat their kids, they babysat yours. You've served them, they've served you. And now it's like this toxic spill poisoning all the relationships in your subdivision, in your. On the three streets that you live in, in Mormonville. You know what I mean?

Sam Pinson [00:04:58] That was a thought that I had. There were all of these expressions of love, as we've noted. And yet when you read the scriptures and see the prophets of God interacting with apostates or people fighting against the church, they're children of hell and they're destroyed. And I'm glad that we've moved away from that, but it's another inconsistency for me. And I think as much as we would like to in the church, as much as the church would like to say, oh, we love people that we excommunicate, and the handbook says that they're supposed to minister to people even after they've had their membership withdrawn. It. Members are taught that we've rejected God, we're fighting against God. And I don't see how you can hold fast to that idea while simultaneously respecting me and loving me and loving me. Those seem like mutually incompatible or exclusive ideas.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:06:13] Yeah, absolutely. And I really liked what you mentioned, mom, about how there's. Seeing the transition of our family, personally and even, like the culture we exist in change depending on our relationship with the church is fascinating, because when you're in the church, let's say it wasn't entirely True, as Olivia can personally attest. But let's say that our family was completely united in the church. No one had any problems with it. We were, like, all in. We were the perfect family, basically, for Mormonism.

Sam Pinson [00:06:44] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:06:45] And then there's like, the chaos and the resentment and the negativity that arises when there's like a transitionary period. But compare that original, like, perfect unity and, you know, us being, like, bound together by those religious ties. And then afterwards, where are the philosophies fundamentally shifted?

Sam Pinson [00:07:06] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:07:07] It seems patently obvious now, obviously it's isn't that clear when you're in the past situation, but when you're bound together by, like, these laws, these authoritarian dictates from on high, Right. From church leadership or what you believe is God. Right. Then there's. It is authoritarian. There's no room for flexibility or change within a family unit or a neighborhood or a culture.

Sam Pinson [00:07:33] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:07:34] And that inevitably ends up hurting people.

Sam Pinson [00:07:37] Right.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:07:38] Whereas if it is flexible, even if you totally disagree on religion or politics or anything, it allows not only for forgiveness and healing, but also for a unity that actually is dependent on something you've created together rather than something that someone else handed down to you. And I think that's incredibly powerful.

Sara Pinson [00:07:58] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Yeah. I hate to say it, but when. If you. If any of you ever watch the Mormons, which was a PBS document years and years and years ago by Helen Whitney about the Mormons, they interview Margaret Toscano, who was one of the, you know, associates of the September 6, and she was excommunicated for feminist writings. She described her disciplinary council as being raped by Care Bears.

Sara Pinson [00:08:27] Oh, my goodness.

Sam Pinson [00:08:29] That's an amazing, amazing description. I didn't know how to.

Sara Pinson [00:08:33] Yeah, well, and it speaks to what Sam's been saying of feeling, like, patronized while it's happening.

Sam Pinson [00:08:42] Like, that's amazing. That was.

Olivia Pinson [00:08:44] That's not the. That's not just the dis. Like that specific instance. I mean, that's like every temple recommend interview that I've ever done.

Sara Pinson [00:08:52] It's that feeling, you know?

Sam Pinson [00:08:53] Well, I. I got a few more things on there. So the. The notice also, the notice to, hey, we're going to come kick you out of our church. The notice says that

Sara Pinson [00:09:06] the last sentence help you. Is that what you.

Sam Pinson [00:09:09] Well, first it says that the membership council will be held on my behalf. And I suppose linguistically that could just mean we're considering you, but on my behalf can also mean for you, like, for your benefit, and it was not for me in any way. And then also, we love and respect you. And we hope that we can work together in peace and love and help you in this matter. I don't need your help. This has nothing to do with me. No, nothing to do with me. It was about you. It was about the church. And so I just. I think that's a misrepresentation of what's going on. But it's wrapped in this loving, flowery package. And these are good men. But this is about the Church. This is not about loving me.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:10:03] Right.

Sara Pinson [00:10:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] And then the other quote we just always have to mention is the one that Thomas McConkie first told me, which is that a cult is any organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact.

Sam Pinson [00:10:16] Yeah.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:10:17] Interesting.

Sam Pinson [00:10:18] Well spoken.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:10:20] Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:10:21] So after the.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Real quick.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:10:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Do you want to talk about your decision to record?

Sam Pinson [00:10:27] I would like to address that.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] What your thoughts are around that.

Sam Pinson [00:10:30] Yeah. So people learning that I recorded will probably first wonder, well, you're not allowed to do that. In the handbook, it says nobody's allowed to make a recording. And did they ask you whether you were? And what did you say? They did ask. And I denied that I was recording, even though I was recording. And there are reasons for that. So does that make me a liar? I did lie in that instance. That's also consistent with my value. Where before I said I love the truth, I do love the truth, but it's not the number one priority in my value system. In all cases, I would lie to hide a Jew in the Holocaust from murderous Nazis because I value life over the right of a murderous Nazi to the truth. Similarly, in this situation, I reject the church's right to tell me I can't make a recording. And I value transparency, the transparency that having a recording will cast on everything that happened and what apostasy looks like. And apparently I'm cleared, not apostasy. And so I'm saying that I actually reject that. I reject the way they tried to spin it. I was excommunicated for apostasy. That's what happened. I also think that it reveals there is no gift of discernment. Why do you need to ask if something shady is going on, something dishonest is going on, when you're being guided by the spirit of the Lord who can discern all things. Right. So they should have known and prevented it or whatever they would do if they knew I was recording. And on top of that, there's my personal protection of having a record of what was actually spoken. And I think that's probably the order of those values

John Dehlin [00:12:38] Anything to add about that?

Sara Pinson [00:12:39] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] Yeah. Are you glad that he recorded so you could hear the whole thing?

Olivia Pinson [00:12:43] Absolutely.

Sara Pinson [00:12:44] Because I didn't get to be there, so I. I'm.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] For me, that's. That's the number one reason I'm glad you recorded.

Sara Pinson [00:12:50] Me, too.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] She deserved to be there.

Sara Pinson [00:12:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] And you deserve to hear the whole thing. You're his freaking life partner.

Sara Pinson [00:12:55] Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] Of course.

Sara Pinson [00:12:57] So I'm very glad. I did ask him when he said he was going to record it. I said, what? And you're gonna lie if they ask you if you're recording? He said, yeah. And I said, how are you? I don't even know what it looks like for you to lie. Do you have a tell? Yeah. Like, I don't. Will something weird go on with your eyebrows? Like, how are you gonna do that? Because he just doesn't do that.

Sam Pinson [00:13:21] And that was my biggest concern, is that I'm not a practiced liar. And so just start blushing or, I don't know,

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:13:32] confesses.

Sam Pinson [00:13:33] But because I wanted the truth to be revealed, I lied.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:13:39] Right. Yeah. Well. And I can say that I felt not only patronized, but there was, like, this. The air was heavy with superficiality and insincerity. Again, I don't hate any of the people involved, of course, and I understand, sympathize. But, yeah, at the end of the day, for whatever reason, it was superficial. And so I had that sort of feeling during. While I was talking, throughout every minute that I was present. But then. Yeah, again. And. Sorry, let that slip. But, yes, listening to the recording at home just, like, shattered any, like, reservation I had about whether or not it was actually totally superficial.

Sam Pinson [00:14:24] Well, I think in the most generous way I can. I think that there can be these membership councils where, in their worldview, they're motivated by love. When they are, for example, reinstating somebody, that could be an opportunity where I think there could be some sincere love and perhaps in some cases of serious sin, where they're really motivated in trying to help somebody eliminate something destructive from their life. When you're having a counsel for kicking somebody out of your club, Right. It's really hard to honestly claim that it's for that person and that it's motivated by love.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:15:12] Yeah, of course. And it's also like. And frankly, I think that, like, the Stake president could sincerely believe in his own mind that what he was doing was motivated out of love. Like, I'm here because of Christ, you know, Like, I'm here because I love you. I do Love you, yada, yada, yada. And yet if that's manufactured, if the whole premise for you feeling or creating this love is from what, you know, we understand to be a fraud or a lie or just some non existent reality. Right. A delusion, then there's a certain level of superficiality to that that really is unavoidable. I don't think that superficiality, at least from the perspective of the person getting excommunicated, is dependent upon the sincerity of, you know, the belief or the love held by the person. So, you know, we should. Empathy is absolutely something that should be extended there, but it should still be understood that, you know, it's so hard to be truly loving of someone when the. All the basis for that is totally manufactured and not actually a product of your personal relationship with someone.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] It's also a fundamentally violent act that they were committing on you and your family. It's a psychologically violent, spiritually violent. You know, there's implications to friendships, to relationships, to family relationships. And then just spiritually, from their perspective, they're damning you and your family to the Mormon equivalent of hell in love. Yeah. And it's not an act of love, it's an act of violence. So freaking stop it. How long do I have to cover these things? Until you guys just stop it. Stop it. Stop. The discipline counts us.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:16:57] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Sorry.

Sam Pinson [00:16:58] Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. So not motivated by love, no matter how many times we say it during the council.

Sara Pinson [00:17:08] Right. Yeah.

Sam Pinson [00:17:11] So after a word, we went home,

John Dehlin [00:17:14] had Slurpees at Slurpees to take out.

Sam Pinson [00:17:18] Like, what do you do? So mixed feelings. It was emotionally exhausting. It was thrilling and happy because this does represent a milestone.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Closure and a little bit of closure.

Sam Pinson [00:17:32] Yeah. The beginning of a new chapter we talked about and listened to. I share. We talked about the council for the rest of the evening and how mind blowing it was, how unexpected, how silly, how dishonest, how it didn't follow the handbook. How it.

Sara Pinson [00:17:57] And painful. Yeah, all the, all those things.

Sam Pinson [00:18:00] Yeah, yeah. So the. It negatively affected my sleep, coming into it and going out of it. But I'm going to recover. I'm going to be okay. And this podcast will be a record of what happened there. And maybe it'll be helpful to somebody. And that's why we're here. That's what we hope for. In the same way that we've been helped by listening to other people's stories.

Sara Pinson [00:18:33] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:18:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] And in the spirit of, like, John and Brooke Maclay, you know, Clay Christianson and Matt Elgren, Lee and Cody Young, Donna Showalter, Paul and Lisa Hacking. You know, there are just way too many really amazing families. Former bishops Tom Phillips, Just the Hansen, Brigitte Matson. I can't even name the amazing families that have come on Mormon Stories to share their journeys, but all of them have made a huge difference. And this stands with all of them as a really important story. And I know it's going to help so many people. And you guys are brilliant and thoughtful and sensitive. Your freaking kids are amazing, just like the other kids we've had on the Lusks, you know, the Booths. Like, it's so great that you guys were willing to do this. Thank you.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:19:37] It's amazing that you set this whole thing up. I mean, this is what allows this to happen.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Yeah. Yeah. And so thanks for. Thanks for speaking the truth. Any final. Do you guys want to have any final kind of closing statements? I mean, I don't know. This is 9, 10 hours. This is a classic Mormon Stories interview. Any final statements? We'll start with the youth.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:20:03] Hello, America. I just say this. I just say this. I. I'm no enlightened individual. I don't know anything that anyone else is lacking.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] Are you 17? 16.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:20:16] 16. Just barely turned 16.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] Holy crap.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:20:21] the end of the day, there's a lot of bait and switch that happens in conversations with surrounding religion. And I guess if I could beg and plead for one thing to happen, if I have any ability to influence that is whether you're religious, Mormon, or otherwise, or whether you're in a conversation with religious people, Mormon or otherwise, just don't let that happen. If possible, just find one thing and establish that point. Because it might take 45 or an 45 minutes or an hour to get one person who's usually reasonable to agree that the Mormon Church doesn't have a monopoly on personal revelation. But you never know, that might make a difference down the road. So that's what I'd say.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] What's your parting words? All right, Olivia, what do you want to say?

Olivia Pinson [00:21:12] I guess just to anyone.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] There's other kids out there going through a faith crisis. Other parents, other families.

Olivia Pinson [00:21:21] Yeah. To anyone who feels like they have to stay tied to something that is unhealthy for them or that they know is wrong or untrue to please other people. That's complete bs. Don't. And to all. I mean, if maybe you're an LGBTQ youth who's struggling, don't be afraid to delve into stories of people on The Internet if you have to, or just find stories of people who are like you, even if you can't find any in your community, because that's what saved me. And it's going to be okay. And don't, don't be afraid to have those discussions, even if they're met with coldness and stone ears at first, because change does happen.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] Are you, do you feel healthier and happier now?

Olivia Pinson [00:22:22] Absolutely, Yep, Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] How can that be?

Olivia Pinson [00:22:28] Well, it took a lot. It was a long journey.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] You were the first to stop believing in your family.

Olivia Pinson [00:22:36] Yeah, so when I was just as an example, really quick, like when I was 14, we went on a month long road trip to the east coast. And that was a big turning point for me, just to begin the journey of letting go of things. Because it was almost like that physical journey allowed me to have spiritual change of heart. And I remember writing in my journal on the very last page, like right when we got back from the road trip, I just wrote, I don't know anything. And that was my release of like, I don't believe this is true. And that's when I really realized within myself that that was true. But it took letting go of caring what other people thought about me and expectations from other people. So that's the most important thing because it can be so damaging to your mental health. The most important thing that matters is you and your values.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] And how has this been good for your mental health? Letting go of everything and the church and everything?

Olivia Pinson [00:23:32] Yeah, well, I was very depressed. I had depression. And I also had periods where I would have panic attacks and was very anxious. So I just wasn't happy. And I wasn't living for myself. I was living for other people and systems around me. And so now, I mean, my life's not perfect. It's like, it's hard to talk about this with you guys still because it brings back, like old memories and feelings. But yeah, I'm happy now. And I feel like I have the freedom to just be me.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Mic drop. Mic drop on that one.

Sara Pinson [00:24:14] That's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] How about you guys? Any final words for couples, families, kids, church leaders, whoever you want to talk to, your own family, the Stake president and bishop.

Sam Pinson [00:24:31] I would like to say that I know that there are consequences for leaving the church. It's not an easy thing to do, even when you know that it's the right thing to do or that it's what you want to do. And I know it doesn't always end as well for other people as it has for us. But I guess I would just say that we're an example of what is possible, what can happen. So if you find yourself in that situation, Don't let fear control you. Don't let that be what decides what you do. There is great happiness on the other side. And I have never been so united and loving with my family. And I told. I've repeated several times to my children since leaving the church. I've told them, up to this point in your lives, I have presented to you what. I have provided with you expectations for your life I have given you. I've charted out for you the path that you were supposed to take. And I've repeatedly told them, you live for you, not for me, not for my values. You live for you. And they're doing that. And I've never been so unjudgmental before in my life because I don't need to be anymore. So much of that that I felt before where I felt like I needed to control or I agonized over. Oh, you're not quite doing it right there. I don't need to feel that way anymore. Each of my kids is their own distinct person and they're making their own choices. And I just delight in watching them grow and seeing the ride.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] What if they screw up? What if they hurt themselves or others?

Sam Pinson [00:26:33] They will.

Sara Pinson [00:26:34] And they'll learn. It's what we all do as humans.

Sam Pinson [00:26:39] So I couldn't be happier than I am now that I have escaped. I've escaped. I really. I feel that way. It took almost 40 years. I know some people make it out a lot sooner than that, and I admire and salute them. And I don't. This is not a flippant comment. I've done a lot of cool things. I feel like in my life. I'm pleased with a lot of things that I've done with my life. I consider discovering the truth and leaving the LDS Church to be one of my greatest achievements so far. I have helped stop the chain of deceit and fraud. I've broken that chain. And now generations after me will be able to come into life not shackled by the lies that were put on me.

Sara Pinson [00:27:39] So assuming they make that choice.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] Assuming you have kids.

Sara Pinson [00:27:44] Assuming that our kids come back to the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Or some other cult. It happens. I have a close friend who left the church, had all their kids resign, and just last week they had to attend their child's rebaptism into the church. It. It happens. And again, that's. I said the word cult. I didn't kind of Mean it like the church is cult like in many ways. That's just a fact. But it also does good things. And this is just really hard. But I don't mean to disparage the church other than to say it needs to stop being cult like and it is cult like. And that's just true. And so to escape a cult like organization is a significant achievement. And then it's hard when you see people still in it or. Or re baptized into it. But then again, maybe that's what they need. Like, we're all on a journey, so.

Sara Pinson [00:28:41] Right. And I would hope that at this point, I've learned enough from my experience in the last year that I would keep channels open with that child. Right. If they did say, hey, I want to go back and join the church.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Yeah. All right, whatever helps.

Sara Pinson [00:28:55] Do you?

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah. So I feel that way.

Sam Pinson [00:28:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] It makes him happy. It makes him healthy.

Sara Pinson [00:29:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Yeah.

Sara Pinson [00:29:03] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Any final words?

Sara Pinson [00:29:05] I guess I would just say a faith transition is hard it. And there's a process to it, and you just can't rush it. I think of it a lot like grieving. And there were lots of days when I laid in bed all day. You know, I would do my schoolwork during the week, and then Saturday I would just lay in bed all day. And I was depressed, and it was really hard to move on. But being a counselor in training, I knew that I needed to accept these emotions and be with them and let them kind of ride their wave. So I really tried to do that. And I think it helped me get to know myself better and validate my feelings. And since. Since then, I love my life. And I think all my life I was told that there isn't happiness and joy outside of the church, that you can't be successful and prosper. And that's a lie. And I'm learning that it's not true that I. I've never been happier and I have never felt more free and felt like my voice matters and the voice of my children matter. And that. And also that lack of judgment like Sam talked about. Yeah. It just feels really good to trust myself and know that I have the answers to my questions. I don't need to rely on a prophet or anyone else. That. That was kind of the person guiding me the whole time when I thought it was something else, it was me.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Anything you guys would say to. If the bishop or stake president end up watching this, and they're like, how dare you record this? Or how dare you tell these people what happened? Or characterize us in this way, anything you want to say to them?

Sam Pinson [00:31:08] In addition to what I said already, I'll probably just repeat that, that nothing good comes from keeping these things secret. That's

John Dehlin [00:31:22] when they say, you're embarrassing us. You're making us look bad.

Sam Pinson [00:31:25] Well, let me maybe come back to that. Several times during the council, they express the idea. It's not that you're saying the God of Mormonism is a racist, that Joseph Smith is a fraud. It's not that you believe those things. It's that you're doing it on Facebook. If you had met with us privately and shared these things with us, we wouldn't be here today. You wouldn't be excommunicated. Secrecy, it's all about limiting these facts. And I don't think any good thing comes from it. So I reject that premise and that desire to hide, to silence me and to hide what goes on. I want to shine a big light on it. I apologize for any embarrassment. I'm sorry that you had to be the representatives of the church in this moment. And any embarrassment that comes, I am sorry.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] At least we didn't use your names intentionally.

Sam Pinson [00:32:36] Deliberately didn't use names.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Yeah. Okay. If anyone from church headquarters is paying attention or listening. Anything you want to say that you haven't already said?

Sam Pinson [00:32:50] Like, what would I like the LDS Church to do? Stop lying and start telling the truth. Stop hurting people and stop hurting people. Yeah, all of those things. Stop claiming to speak for God. Stop claiming to declare truth. Start acknowledging the problems. That would be devastating. They'll never do that. But that's what.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] That's kind of their stick. That's their stick.

Sam Pinson [00:33:17] That's what I would say to them. You're going to keep on seeing these podcasts and you're going to keep on seeing people leave the church as long as you're dishonest. Honesty will probably send a whole bunch of people out, too. But in the long run, if you keep up with the lies, you won't win.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] All right. We good?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:33:43] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] We done?

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:33:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] All right. Well, it has been. It has been an incredible honor to interview the Pinson. So this has been Sam and Sarah, Sam Jr. And Olivia. I want to do a quick shout out to my friends Jerry and Julie Johnson and Doug and Laurie Checketts. They also did an amazing all day interview. These two couples, two of them are sisters. And they were also an example of just these epic family stories that have really meant a lot to a lot of people. And there's a lot that I'm not that I'M forgetting, but I'm just so grateful you guys are willing to do this. This has been so powerful, so meaningful. You're going to help so many people. So thank you. Thank you for all our listeners. Bless you guys. You guys, are you going to stay in Idaho Falls? Are you going to be able to weather the storm, or are you guys going to have to move?

Olivia Pinson [00:34:49] I'm graduated.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Wait, say it on the microphone.

Olivia Pinson [00:34:52] Oh, I'm graduated.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] Okay, so you're taking off. Where are you gonna go? Well, you don't have to tell people.

Olivia Pinson [00:34:58] I'm applying to AmeriCorps. And if I get in, I'm taking a gap year and then University of Washington after that.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] So my oldest child just is completing their year with AmeriCorps.

Olivia Pinson [00:35:10] Really?

John Dehlin [00:35:11] Yeah.

Olivia Pinson [00:35:11] Do you like it?

John Dehlin [00:35:12] Well, I mean, you get paid like five bucks an hour. And I was like, you wanna get paid $5 an hour? And this child graduated valedictorian of their college. In college. Right. But what they did is they worked with a nonprofit here in Salt Lake City supporting refugees who came from foreign countries, helping them settle in Salt Lake, helping them get jobs, helping them get driver's licenses, helping them get a footing, helping them pass the ged. What a freaking amazing year of service. And they're going to get a little credit towards college. They're going to grad school. And so, like, I'm really proud of them first for what they've done.

Olivia Pinson [00:35:57] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] So you want to do that?

Olivia Pinson [00:35:58] Yeah, that's my hope.

Guest [00:35:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] AmeriCorps. You won't get rich, though.

Sam Pinson [00:36:03] No, I won't.

Olivia Pinson [00:36:04] I will be taking out loans, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:36:10] Just to briefly respond to your question

John Dehlin [00:36:12] about you have to go back to high school someday when high school reopens.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:36:16] Oh, yes, absolutely. At the end of the disciplinary council, there were several people who said several times that anytime we wanted to re enter the church, we would be more than welcome. And I guess partly to answer that question, I don't think we're planning on moving. I'm not the parent, but as long as the Pinson family doesn't move, I think that I can speak for all of us when we offer the same invitation back to the stake presidency and everyone and anyone who might ever choose to re enter or not re enter, but exit the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] Okay. And Margi and I didn't want to feel like we were being run out of Cache Valley, so we stayed a couple extra years. All our neighbors were so uncomfortable. They're like, are you moving yet? Are you moving? You know, they really wanted us to move because for a couple years we'd drive by, they'd drive by, they'd have to go in their house when they saw us coming down the street. Like it became this spiritual ghost town, psychological ghost town with all these people that for 12 years were our close friends. So it was painful for them for us to stay in Cache Valley. It was painful for us. And after a couple years of us kind of like thumbing our nose at them and staying and having to stare them in the eyes in the grocery store or whatever, and our kids losing all their friends and having to be pariahs at school and all the rumors, we ended up just saying friggin, we're gonna move. So we moved to Salt Lake City and it's been friggin amazing.

Sam Pinson [00:37:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] So I just wonder, do you predict you guys will stay in Idaho Falls or.

Sam Pinson [00:37:54] We don't have any plans to move, but I am self employed, so we have that freedom and I don't know, I recognize what you're talking about. I think there's some of that. And we might, I don't know, we don't have any plans.

Sara Pinson [00:38:08] We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] I love it. That's a good answer. We'll see. All right, everyone, if you, if you made it through this entire podcast, I extend to you an offer for an ice cream cone with me or a steak dinner here in Holiday. Let me know. This has been so amazing. Thank you for joining with us. Thanks for everyone who supports Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Thanks to all the donors that make this possible. We've lost a ton of donations through COVID 19 and the recent past few months it's put it to where I'm starting to look at considering other things to do because in a couple years there may not be the funds to support this. So if you value this program and you want to see continue into the future, consider becoming donors to the Omas Dorris Foundation. We're a 501C3. We're transparent and we are dedicated to doing this for as long as there's support. If the support dries up, we'll stop doing it and someone else can take over. Or we'll just keep the library up for as long as we can and people can benefit from it. But thanks for all the support. If you want to support us, go to mormorestories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor subscriber. It's tax deductible in the US and we'll help as many people as we can. Thanks to everyone who supports. Thanks to our board of directors of our nonprofit, our accountants, just everyone who makes this possible. Thanks to Margi and the kids that enable me to do what I do. Thanks to all you listeners that are encouraging. Thanks to this amazing family. Tune in again soon for more episodes of Mormon Stories Podcast. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have questions or comments or ideas. We'd love to hear them. And of course, feel free to comment on the blog. If you also want to help us in other ways, you can give us a positive review on Facebook the Mormon Stories Podcast page. You can give us a positive review on itunes or the podcast Apple Podcast app. You can share this stuff with everyone you know. There's a lot of things you can do to support us in addition to donating. So thanks for all the support. Love you guys. And I'm going to take at least a couple days off after today. You guys drive safely back to Idaho Falls and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody. Thanks again guys.

Olivia Pinson [00:40:28] Thanks.

Sam Pinson Jr. [00:40:29] Thanks.

Guest [00:40:50] Come, come you saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your

John Dehlin [00:41:01] way

Guest [00:41:05] Though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better Father far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think a lot is hard Tis not so, all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your law Fresh courage take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have tale to tell. Oh, all is well, all is well oh, all is well, all is well. And should we die before our journey's through happy day all is well we then are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives lives are spared Again to see the saints the rest obtain. I will make this chorus well oh, all is well, all is well all is well, all is well, all is well well oh, is well, All is well all is away.

Sam Pinson [00:45:14] Sam.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.