Introduction to Rod Decker

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 29, 2021, and today we are interviewing someone who I have wanted to interview for probably 30 years. 25 to 30 years. I don't think that's an exaggeration in some sense. This person I'm interviewing has been an inspiration to me and a role model for multiple decades. And I'm not exaggerating. Today we are interviewing journalist, you, Utah journalist, Rod Decker. Rod Decker, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Rod Decker [00:00:34] Thank you. And thank you for the nice introduction.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Well, it's not over. So some of you will have no idea who Rod Decker is, which is kind of mind boggling to me because Rod Decker was kind of an institution in Utah for multiple decades. And then a bunch of you will absolutely know who Rod Decker is and you'll be thrilled and delighted that I'm interviewing him. But, but Rod Decker worked for deseret news for eight years and then he worked for KUTV or Channel 2 News in Utah for 37 years. And he was kind of the Utah journalist, in my opinion, that did great news, kind of in the tradition of Edward R. Murrow and you know, Chet Huntley and David Brinkley and you know, Andy Rooney and kind of the amazing journalists of the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. In my mind, Ed Decker kind of embodied that tradition and represented it in Utah for over 40 years, for 45 years. And he has been involved in so many of the most important Utah news stories over the, over the past several decades. And after he retired from 45 years of news, he has been returning to a passion that he loves and has wanted to be involved in for a long, long time. Recently, Rod Decker released with Signature Books. What I'm going to say is an amazing book. The book is Utah Politics. The Elephant in the Room by Rod Decker, published by Signature Books. And this is not his only book. Rod Decker also published a book called An Environment for Murder, which I believe is a fiction book and is also. I have not read this book yet, but I'm going to plug it because I've read most of this book and it's so great that I am assuming that An Environment for Murder has to be amazing as well. We're going to talk about both these books today and kind of here's how it's going to go. As those of you who are familiar with Mormon Stories Podcast know, we prefer to do long form. We're not in it for sound bites or short interviews. So today, in my first Interview with Rod Decker. We're going to just be hearing his story and his Mormon story and his, I'll call it a post Mormon story, but just kind of like his life, honoring him and all that he's done. We'll get into his Mormon journey, but also his journey as a Utah journalist covering news, Mormon news, the church's involvement in politics, kind of from a Mormon related angle, because that's kind of what you Mormon Stories listeners are interested in. And then we're gonna bring Rod Decker back because once you start digging into this book, Utah Politics, you will find that it covers some amazingly important topics such as the ascendancy of Mormon influenced Utah Republicanism in the state. That's kind of its own potential episod. The involvement of the Mormon Church in Utah politics as it relates to public morality. Things like smoking and prohibition and alcohol and gambling and abortion and same sex marriage. That really is, in my view, its own topic. There's all sorts of interesting stories related to Utah land and climate, including the downwinder tale of southern Utah with the experimentation on nuclear weapons that's never been told before on Mormon Stories podcast. Fights over water rights and land rights. And then there's just kind of again, this general idea of the involvement of the Mormon Church in Utah politics that I think deserves its own at least episode, if not series. So that's kind of why we're interviewing Rod Decker today. Again, Rod Decker, it's such a joy to have you on Mormon Stories podcast.

Rod Decker [00:04:43] Thank you. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Okay. Anything you want to say to kind of give listeners an overview or any response to my introduction that you want to. That you want to offer?

Rod Decker [00:04:56] Grew up in Salt Lake City, wanted to become an academic, sank to journalism. I've had a good life.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] I'm so delighted to see that. How, if you don't mind how I'm going to ask, how old are you?

Rod Decker [00:05:10] I'll be 80 in July.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] You are almost 80. And you're doing what I think is groundbreaking or at least really important. Utah history. You are. You are also a role model for how to. How to live in your. In your golden years,

Rod Decker [00:05:29] if you like. Writing history. Why I write history. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] And you're a little bit modest. Okay, Rod Decker, so the first thing I want to do is just focus for the next couple hours on your epic story. And I'm going to, you know, this is Mormon Stories, so we've got to weave in the Mormon angle.

Rod Decker [00:05:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] So let's.

Rod Decker [00:05:50] Mormonism has been very important in my life.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] Yeah. So buckle up. Listeners, and let's dive in. So, Rod Decker, tell us about your birth or your ancestors to the extent that they influence. I'm.

Pioneer Mormon Heritage and Utah Roots

Rod Decker [00:06:01] I'm a Utah boy. My Zachariah Broom Decker. The. The first Decker to join the Mormon Church in Nauvoo and marched in the Mormon Battalion, married, was a founder of Parowan, went through Hole in the Rock and was a founder of Bluff. It goes Zachariah Brune, James Bean, James Bean, Webster Rodney. And my dad was born in Bluff. He became a.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Where's Bluff?

Rod Decker [00:06:37] It's in San Juan County. You go to Monticello, you go through Monticello, down through Blanding, you get to Bluff. And if you keep going, you get to Mexican Hat, and it's.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] This is rural Utah.

Rod Decker [00:06:57] Yeah. And Hole in the Rock. A lot of your listeners will know about Hole in the Rock. It's a famous incident of. It was the last frontier. It was 1879, and it was the last. By then, everywhere else was settled. But they sent a company down there and on the other side.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] What's historic about the Hole in the Rock?

Rod Decker [00:07:32] David Miller wrote a book about it. And what's historic is they were dumb. They took off from Parowan, Cedar City, that area, and they were to go down to San Juan County. The church wanted a. They wanted to settle all the land they could, and that was the last. And they wanted a redoubt. They wanted their own guys down there against outlaw and Indian raids, and they didn't want gentiles seizing the area. So they said, okay, you're on a mission, you go down. So they looked at the way to go, and they went around to the east, and then they went around to the west. And both of them were long. You had to go across the Colorado River Gorge. So they decided, well, we'll just go straight over. And Hole in the Rock was a gap in the wall of the Colorado River Gorge. And they went down it and then back up the other side very d.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Did something bad happen?

Rod Decker [00:08:42] No, they made it, but it was very dumb. It took them six months and they almost died. And they arrived at Bluff and they were just worn out. They were dumb. But when you're dumb, you got to be heroic. And they were heroic. They persevered. They endured hardships. They kept cheerful even when things went wrong. A true Latter Day Saints story. And they arrived and Bluff. And Bluff is a terrible place. It's on the San Juan river. And the San Juan river floods, and then it dries out. And they never could get a. They never could Get a crop to grow. Finally they became cattlemen. The church, they asked the church, can we leave? They became cattlemen. They fought Indians. The last called, the last Indian uprising. An Indian outlaw named Posey led. He was a, he was famous there. There are pictures of him at the Utah State Historical Society with Governor Mabie. And he was, he was a national figure of sorts as a, as an outlaw. And there are lots of Posey stories and, and lots of stories of shoot em ups with Indians and with cowboys and, and it was, it had the normal Latter Day Saint trouble when you settle of trying to make a living. More than most other Latter Day Saint settlements. It had the old West Hollywood shoot em up machismo stuff too. And it's a famous story. Okay, so that's one, one line. My grandfather, James Bean Decker said he shot Posey and he may have. He was, his uncle, Arthur Wood was the sheriff and, and he had Posey in jail. He sent my grandpa out with a gun to let Posey swim in the San Juan River. My Grandpa was about 17, something like that. And he was sitting in the river. Posey says, well, can I go around the bushes here for a little privacy? Yeah, yeah. So then Posey starts swimming out in the river. Come back. Yells James Bean Decker. Come back. Posey keeps swimming on the other side. He sees two Indians and three horses. Well, he knows what's up. Come back. Well, he fired and he thinks he hit Posey. And later some guys said that yeah, he did hit Posey, but Posey continued to swim. Hit Posey in the leg. Posey continued to swim, got on the third horse and they escaped.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] It's like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, man. This is real.

Rod Decker [00:11:42] Well, he was, he, he was a little unhappy when I knew him and he was 80. He was a little unhappy that Posey had gotten away. But. So there was a lot of stuff went on. Okay, that's one line. The other line is all red. And they joined the church in Jackson County, Missouri. They had a farm there. And the farm was astride the route that the Latter Day Saints took when they came from Ohio to Missouri. And so they, they'd travel through and they'd stop and preach. And it took them a year. But finally they talked the Allreds into joining two brothers. And so they were in Nauvoo. Then they came and settled in Salt Lake. Then. Then when Johnson's army came, they left for Lehigh. And most people came back when Johnson's army left, but they stayed in Lehi. So I go back about as far about as far as it goes on both sides.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Is this the allreds that become polygamous

Rod Decker [00:12:56] at some point or they're related? I am not of that line. None of. From Paulinus through. I don't think there were any polygamists, but it was. We are related to those all red polygamists. My mom said she met one once and he'd go, oh, sister, good to meet you. How she described it. So they lived in Lehigh until my grandpa was the last. His grandpa. His father and he were farmers in Lehi. He was a Utah pattern, but farmer in the summer, school teacher in the winter. But he didn't teach school in Lehigh. He was just a farmer in Lehigh. He taught school other places. He went other places to teach school. Okay, so I was born in New York. My parents were met at BYU and went to New York for graduate school.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Where?

Rod Decker [00:14:08] Queens.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Queens College.

Rod Decker [00:14:11] Oh, where'd they go to graduate school? My dad went to New York University.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] What was he studying?

Rod Decker [00:14:15] That's accounting business.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] Oh.

Rod Decker [00:14:17] And he. He was. Then he came back and he was a professor of accounting at the University of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] What year were you born?

Rod Decker [00:14:24] 1941.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] Okay, so this is the year Pearl Harbor's bombed.

Rod Decker [00:14:28] That's right. I was born in July and they bombed us in December.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Okay. And your dad is studying accounting at nyu?

Rod Decker [00:14:37] Yeah, accounting and business.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] That's kind of cool.

Rod Decker [00:14:40] I didn't know at the time. Okay. Lived in New York till I was 8 and then my parents took in Queens. No, no, I was born in Queens but lived mostly in Westchester and Mount Vernon.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Okay.

Rod Decker [00:14:56] Then my parents wanted to raise their kids Latter Day Saints, so they came to. To Utah. My dad became an accounting professor.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] So what high school area would you.

Rod Decker [00:15:09] East High.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] East there in your.

Rod Decker [00:15:10] Can't. Can't you tell?

John Dehlin [00:15:12] How can I tell you were from East High?

Rod Decker [00:15:14] Well, by my. By my bearing. That's a joke.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] East High comes into play in this book. There's a really cool. I didn't know this about East. I mean, in Utah, Mormonism. East High is famous because High School Musical was filmed there.

Rod Decker [00:15:29] Yeah, that was after my time.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] But that whole story about a club for an affirming club for gays in the school plays in later. But I wonder if you're proud of your. Your alma mater.

Rod Decker [00:15:42] Yeah, I still am proud of East High. It's changed a lot, but it's. It's still.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] Did Bill Bradshaw go to East High?

Rod Decker [00:15:49] Did who?

John Dehlin [00:15:50] Do you know Bill Bradshaw, the biology professor from byu?

Rod Decker [00:15:52] Yeah. And I don't know Okay. I wouldn't be surprised. There were Bradshaws who went. Okay, so, okay, so, so you're, so

John Dehlin [00:16:01] you moved to, so what part of Utah were you in? Holiday Mill Creek. What the avenues?

Rod Decker [00:16:07] Federal Heights. Federal Heights by the university.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Okay. Okay.

Rod Decker [00:16:11] Yeah, We, we lived for three months in Lehigh with my, my grandparents while my parents found, found a house.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] Okay.

Rod Decker [00:16:26] And I, I, I still have fond memories of Lehigh, but then I lived in Salt Lake. Grew up in Salt Lake East High, University of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Okay, so you would have been 13 years old. I mean you, it's, I'm just trying to kind of put myself back in that mindset. So we're talking about like Eisenhower, the Eisenhower 50s.

Rod Decker [00:16:48] Eisenhower was the president of my youth. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] And I was in, I think I

Rod Decker [00:16:53] was in seventh grade. What he was sixth grade, I guess. What he was elected. And that's a long time from sixth grade for eight years. I was in college when he, when Kennedy was elected.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Okay, so your, your elementary and high school years would have been straight out

Rod Decker [00:17:19] 50s Americana, 50s salt. Like.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Yeah. So that, that's, that's really interesting. This is when Utah with this, this is where David O. McKay is prophet.

Rod Decker [00:17:31] This is where David O. McKay. Yeah. I remember, I remember going him several times and my, my mom would take me and I remember one night lying in bed and I heard them shouting in the streets. They were selling newspapers extra. David Obaquet dies. And they, when he died, they put out a, a special edition. It came out about 11, 10 or 11 at night. Maybe, maybe 9, 10, 11. And they, they, they sent, they got their news force and they, they went through neighborhoods shouting and people came out of their houses and bought newspapers. That's how, that's how you did news in those days. And I remember that.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] So when I think of, when I think of the 50s, I think of Eisenhower, Cold War, I think of the emergence of the civil rights movement, the beginnings of it. I, I think of the McCarthy hearings, you know, the, the Red Scare. And then I think of like David O. McKay and the rise of modern Mormonism and the church trying to kind of working really hard to become like IBM corporate type Mormons to shed the bearded polygamy past and to try and become model Mormons. So having given that kind of background talk about the 50s and, and your Mormon life in.

Growing Up Mormon in 1950s Utah

Rod Decker [00:18:59] Oh, I went to church a lot. Those were the days when now the church is cut back so they don't, they don't take you so much. But then they believed probably while you were in church, you weren't Getting into trouble. And they kept you in church a lot. In. In. In junior high, we'd go. You went to priesthood meeting, then Sunday school, then you came back for church later. Okay. On. On Tuesday.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] So you go to church twice. People don't remember that. I remember it. I'm old enough. You went to church twice on Sunday.

Rod Decker [00:19:35] Twice. Went in the morning for two hours and in the. And in the evening for what was supposed to be, I think, an hour and 15 minutes. But it went on and on and on.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] So four hours of church, basically.

Rod Decker [00:19:49] Oh, yeah, yeah. Close. Close to three and a half to four hours of church on Sunday. Too much, I thought. And the. And then you went on Tuesday to. To. When you were a kid, you went to primary. When you were a teen, you went to Mutual Improvement Association. Started. Started as a boy Scout. You were an explorer. You were a junior M man. You were an M man. Then you had basketball practice in the. In the war gym two nights a week. Then you had road shows and you rehearsed the road. Okay. The. The. Every year, each ward would put on a skit, a musical skit like Saturday's Warrior, for. For five or ten minutes and it was. And then they traveled around. That's why they were called road shows. They trial. Each ward traveled around and put on the skit for the other ward, for all the other wards of the stake, and then the judges picked the best one.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] Did you. Did you love the roadshows?

Rod Decker [00:21:02] Well, I was in them. They were okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Did you sing or was it just.

Rod Decker [00:21:05] I did some singing.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] Do you remember any of the songs?

Rod Decker [00:21:09] No, I don't remember songs from the road. I ought to. I ought to think about. I. I don't. I assume I sang in the. In the road show. In any case, I was in the roadshow, but we didn't win, and I was only in once or twice. The director was Bob Bennett, who was the son of Senator Bennett and who later became a senator himself.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] We've had his son, Jim Bennett, on Mormon Stories podcast.

Rod Decker [00:21:38] Yeah. Okay. Is Jim faithful? Yeah, yeah, I would think he was. Yeah. Bob Bennett was also my Sunday school teacher. They asked him about it. They saw him once at a thing. They said, oh, you were. You. Rod Decker, Sunday school teacher? He said, didn't do much good. The. So, okay, so I was. And I went to church a lot and was a regular Latter Day Saint.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] So I really quickly, I think of, you know, I. I am old enough to have been involved in roadshows and scouting and church basketball and all those things. I came on the tail end of that and I think of that as kind of like the golden age of Mormonism, kind of like the 50s through the 80s. Did you experience it that way?

Rod Decker [00:22:29] No. I mean, I. I liked it. It was fine. But. But. I said that before I came to Salt Lake, I. I was in Lehi. The Latter Day Saint church was different in Lehigh from the way it was in Salt Lake. It was more enthusiastic. Enthusiastic is a technical term in religion where you catch the spirit. I remember being at a fasted testimony meeting in Salt Lake. They were pretty. They were. People stood up and talked and everybody nodded and smiled. And in. In Lehi, people sort of got the spirit and they shouted. A person would yell, sing him 89. And everyone would burst into song. And. And I remember one where there was a member and somebody said something nice about him. He was an old man. And then person after person said, oh, what a wonderful fellow he was. And it was a. It was a somewhat different and more enthusiastic is the word, I guess spiritual is what the spiritual in a. In an evangelical way perhaps or in a Pentecostal way than. Than it was in Salt Lake. My grandfather, Rodney C. Allred, after whom I'm named, was 20 years second counselor of the stake presidency.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] 20 years.

Rod Decker [00:24:09] 20 years in one stake was well known. Was well known for the loudness of his voice. So I could tell I'm a descendant. So I think I only know the church from reading about it now. And it doesn't sound like it was as much fun as it was when I went as a kid, but it may be just as much fun. I don't know. For the people who go scouting was fun. I liked being a Boy scout and camp.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] You go scout camp?

Rod Decker [00:24:48] Oh yeah. And we did a lot of, A lot of big hikes and. And it was fun to start. You started at 11 in those days? In those days you started in Boy Scouts and we went and it was fun. When you were 11, you went and there were 13 and 14 year old guys and you got to hang out with them afterwards and walk home and stuff like that. That was. That. That was fun. It was. We. We would sneak out from church and go to the spud nut shop nearby.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Are those donuts Have.

Rod Decker [00:25:21] Have. Yeah. Have a. Have a spud nut and a. What's a spud nickel? It's a donut made of potato flour. I don't. It may be it was called spud nut, but. But I can't tell the difference between when I eat a donut. You ate a Day it was a big glazed donut and, and a mug of root beer for a dime a nickel each.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] Love it.

Rod Decker [00:25:48] And so now I don't want. I was never or hardly ever and a fully committed. I, I, My father didn't. He went to church some, but not a lot. And I always.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] You think he was a believer?

Rod Decker [00:26:09] He didn't care.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] What do you mean?

Rod Decker [00:26:11] Just that.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] How do you wait, how do you be in Utah, Salt Lake City, the, the Vatican of mormonism in the 50s and not care about Mormonism?

Rod Decker [00:26:22] Well, he cared. He thought it was a good institution and he aspired to be a, a good Mormon. But he, he, he drank. He, he, he ended up leaving the church, leaving our family, leaving my mom and marrying another woman and gambling and drinking and having. Being a non Mormon and his, he had, he, he thought Mormonism was a, a good institution and the way of life he probably ought to lead, but he didn't really want to lead it. And he had a kind of an attitude toward the church of. Well, they, they, they, they try to, they, they try to make you

John Dehlin [00:27:18] do

Rod Decker [00:27:18] little in, in, in. In My Fair Lady Doolittle Eliza. Yeah, well though her father something p. Do little who said with a little bit of luck. With a little. They're always throwing goodness at you, but with a little bit of luck they'll miss. That was, that was something of his attitude. He, he, he, he didn't want to. He, he was a divided sort of person and he, he didn't want to be. He wanted to be. Part of him wanted to be a good Mormon and part of him didn't. And I always thought the church went on too long and I always thought that, that, I always thought that the, that the Sunday school lessons were foolishness in part and, and other boys were, I was more religious than some other boys sort of thought that too. And so I, maybe there are boys who, I know there are boys who were, who were committed. I was never, I was never as committed as some.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Okay, so, so this is an area I have to dig a little bit just because there's this ongoing theme that is the reason why I started Mormon Stories, and it's probably one of the main reasons so many people listen. There, There is a sense, you know, over the past few decades that the Mormon Church has not been open and honest about its history and that in fact the church has intentionally hid or distorted its history and misled its members. That's, I mean, that is a main theme running through.

Rod Decker [00:29:05] Okay, 1600 hours.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] So yeah, so, you know, we've covered a lot on Mormon stories, especially recently. Kind of like how bh, you know, the book New York Times covers the problems of the Book of Abraham. In about 1912, B. H Roberts discovers all these problems in the Book of Mormon. By the 1920s, and all the church leaders have put on notice that there are problems with Mormon church scripture. And then, of course, in 45, Fawn Brody comes out with her book no Man Knows My history, David O. McKay's niece. And that kind of sends a lightning bolt, you know, into Mormon consciousness in select ways. So by the 1950s and 60s, we see, you know, the church trying to figure out what are we going to do with our problematic history. And, you know, we get Harold B. Lee and correlation and Joseph Fielding Smith and kind of this new Mormon orthodoxy with Bruce R. McConkey that leads to the 80s and 90s and September 6th. And I'm giving all that as a background just to ask you kind of a very direct question with your dad. I want to know if he, if, you know, if he believed and was okay.

Rod Decker [00:30:18] I don't think he cared about. I think he thought. I don't think he thought. Seriously, is it true?

John Dehlin [00:30:26] How does that happen? You're living in Salt Lake. You're an academic.

Rod Decker [00:30:30] You're an intellectual organization. As a good man, I should be a good Mormon, but I really like my cowboy ways. He was a cowboy when he was a kid. I really like drinking and gambling and,

John Dehlin [00:30:46] and was he a Jack Mormon or was he just a new He.

Rod Decker [00:30:49] He went through periods. He was the ward clerk for a while, and they made him a high priest. And he, he went to priesthood meeting and Sunday school and gave speeches in church. And then he went through a period where he, he drank. And as I said, he took up with this with a woman and left my mom and, and, and, and his five kids. And so he, But I don't, I don't think, I don't think that whether it was true bothered him very much.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] Okay. And, and I just, I, some people may be annoyed that I'm doing this, but this is really important to me. And by the way, I, you know, my parents got divorced and, you know, I've seen this sort of stuff happen a lot, and I even tried to talk, explore this in the Mark Hoffman stuff. But the way, the way I often see Mormon history going is there's this thing where if you leave the church, there's this stereotype within orthodox Mormonism that if you leave the church, you're going to drink and smoke and do drugs and you're going to leave your spouse and cheat on them and run away.

Rod Decker [00:31:53] And so sometimes that happens.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] It happens. But what I don't think we explore enough is to what extent does that happen as a result of somebody privately trying to believe in Mormonism, wondering if it's true, deciding that it's not. Deciding that maybe they've been misled or hurt, but not feeling like they can ever be open or talk about it. And then by living this closeted, suppressed life of living in secret where you don't believe, but everyone around you does believe, and you're fearful that if you are open and honest, you're gonna be marginalized and shunned. Then those other secret behaviors start to develop, and then you end up becoming the cautionary tale when it was sometimes society that kind of drove you that way. And that may not be your dad. I'm not trying to force you to say that was your dad, but if I could go back in history, I would wanna know when he was being active Mormon, did he try and believe. Did he learn about the problematic history?

Rod Decker [00:33:01] No, he didn't learn about the problematic history.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] He never even.

Rod Decker [00:33:04] He wouldn't have given a.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] You wouldn't have even cared if it was true.

Rod Decker [00:33:07] He just said, yeah, yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Because he didn't have a supernatural worldview. Because he was Just a second.

Rod Decker [00:33:13] I don't know whether he had a. I don't know his. His. Whether he had a supernatural worldview. He. I mean, he prayed sometimes, but I don't. I don't think. I don't think the truth was a bit. He lived a practical life, and Mormonism for him was like a. An institution. He'd been raised a Mormon, but it was like an institution that good men belong to and community leaders and the kind of man his mother would have wanted him to be. And he sort of wanted to be. Were. Went to church and participated and were leaders in church, and he sort of wanted to do that, but he. See, he wanted to drink and to chase women, and he wanted to do that too. And finally the. Finally, that's what won out. I never had a discussion with him about the truth.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] You don't know if he ever cared about whether it was actually true or not. You don't know.

Rod Decker [00:34:13] I don't know whether he cared and he didn't care very much or he would have said something. I mean, I. We weren't. We weren't estranged or anything.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] Yeah.

Rod Decker [00:34:23] And we talked about. After we'd both left, we drank together and talked about it. And he never said anything about it wasn't true or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Okay. Okay.

Rod Decker [00:34:37] For me, for me, when I left.

Faith Questions in Youth and Teenage Years

John Dehlin [00:34:39] Okay, let's talk about in your childhood and young adult years. In your youth and teen years, did you care if it was true? Was that important to you? And was that an important part of your Mormon upbringing for you?

Rod Decker [00:34:51] Yeah. Yeah, when I was young. Okay. The. The church claimed. I. I think it still claims to be true. That that was. You heard that a lot. And that was a. And I remember. I remember worrying about it. Is it true? Oh, and I remember thinking, well, the church said the word of wisdom and the word of wisdom is true. See, that's evidence that it's true. I was about 10 and I remember wondering whether it was true. I read the Book of Mormon and I prayed and nothing much happened. But this was when I was a sophomore in high school. I was at a mutual class and I came out, walking out of the mutual class on the second story of the. Of the. It's now the university ward. And I remember walking out and thinking, it's true. It's true. Wow. And having a feeling. Having a feeling of a Latter Day Saint would say joy, maybe of elation. When I thought about it, the nearest thing I could think of was it was like at a football game when your team scored and you believed you were going to win. Now, I don't. I don't wish in any way to. That sounds as if I'm trying to make fun of it. I'm not. But that was the nearest feeling. A sort of an elation and an elation. It's true. And an elation of I'm on the winning side. Things, things will. Things will work out for me. There's a way.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Yeah, that feels great, doesn't it?

Rod Decker [00:36:44] That sort of thing. I don't think I ever had that feeling again.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Did you do seminary? Early morning seminary then?

Rod Decker [00:36:55] I did in junior high, but I had a hard time getting up. I didn't in high school.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] Okay.

Rod Decker [00:37:02] It was all I could do to get to school on time. I was a serious sleeper and my mom kept having to push me to get me up in my group. The boys who did seminary stayed in the church. The boys who didn't, didn't. It was a real divider for me. I want to say something in case it doesn't come up again. 14. I'm a ward teacher.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] Was that. Oh, a teacher. Prepare the sacrament or something?

Rod Decker [00:37:38] No, award teacher in those days, a ward teacher was to an older guy. In my case, it was Dr. Keller and a younger guy. I was 14. And you had, they, they have, they call them ministering or something now. And you went, you went from, you

John Dehlin [00:37:58] have home teachers, like a home teacher.

Rod Decker [00:38:00] Yeah, they called them ward teachers, that. Home teachers is what I'm talking about. I was a war award teacher, home teacher. And one of the people whom I taught was Harold B. Lee. Ooh.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] While he was prophet or.

Rod Decker [00:38:14] No, no, no, no. This was, this in the 50s.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] He would have been apostle.

Rod Decker [00:38:17] Yeah, yeah, he was an apostle. And I always, when I tell that story, I always say, I taught apostoly. And then I always say, see, what a good job.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] What was he like? Do you remember?

Rod Decker [00:38:31] Yeah, we only went a couple of times. He lived in, he lived for a while in the house on Military Way, which is now owned by the University of Utah and used as the house of their presidents. It was Joe Rosenblatt's house, and he lived there for just a short time. And Dr. Keller and I went and we, we, we went and we said he'd invite us in and sit down. Sometimes the ward teacher talks, but not at Apostle Lee's house. Apostle Lee talked and he talked about things, and he was a nice man and a practical man. And you had a feeling that he looked at things with a cold eye and made rational decisions. That would be sort of my feeling. And he had experience. Well, now, some of our sisters, they'll be counseled. I remember he said. And he was. I didn't know him well.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Okay, Fun.

Rod Decker [00:39:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] So how did high school go? You knew. By 14, you knew. It was true. Then what?

Rod Decker [00:39:52] Well, I was.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] And also, what were your interests? What were your interests in high school?

Rod Decker [00:39:56] I'm just normal. Just ordinary. I, I, I was not a good student. I wanted to be a good student, but I was not a good student either. And I, I got through. I sort of slid, slid through. I, I was a debater. I was on the swimming team. I, I was no good with girls. I, I, I was, I had teenage horniness, but never had a girlfriend. I had a crowd of guys I hung out with, some of whom remained faithful and, and some of whom didn't.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] What did you guys do for fun back then?

Rod Decker [00:40:34] Well, we went to church a lot

John Dehlin [00:40:36] because of basketball and scouts.

Rod Decker [00:40:38] Yeah, that sort of thing. We went to high school things. We went. Some of the guys had cars. I didn't for the most part. And we drove around. We didn't just drive around aimlessly very much, but we did a little. Junior high was at Stuart School, which was on the University of Utah campus. So we went to a lot of things at the University of Utah campus. I went to plays. A lot of my friends didn't go with me. And we went to things there. My dad had. It was called an activity book and you ripped out a coupon and you could get into a lecture or. I remember seeing the Weavers with Pete Seeger. It was wonderful. In Kingsbury Hall. Okay. We went to basketball games. We went to the high school ball games and to the university. Followed the university basketball and football. We were adept at sneaking in when we were at Stuart. We found the heating tunnels that still go under the University of Utah, and we knew how to get in. And we could access them and take them. We were. We knew where all of them went. And we could take the one that came up inside the field house and get into football games. Sometimes my dad would give me his ticket, but sometimes I would just sneak in. That's what we did.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] So what happened to your Mormon testimony and conviction after that epiphany at age

Rod Decker [00:42:30] 14, when I was, When I was at the U, I joined a fraternity.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] So the. So you graduated. This is after you graduated from high school?

Rod Decker [00:42:40] Yeah, I joined a fraternity.

John Dehlin [00:42:42] Anything else noteworthy about high school you want to say that leads to journalism or that leads to.

Rod Decker [00:42:46] Oh, I, I, I was in plays in high school and I was a debater, as I said. Yeah. And not a very good student. I went to the U.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Because your dad was a professor there.

Rod Decker [00:43:00] Yeah. Which was closer to my house than high school.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] How was BYU regarded when you chose the University of Utah? How is BYU regarded at the time? Or Utah State? Probably agricultural college.

Rod Decker [00:43:11] I don't know. My friends went to the U, and we thought the U, that's where, that's where people went. I, I applied to Yale and didn't get in and really had very little chance.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Why Yale if you weren't a good student?

Rod Decker [00:43:30] Huh?

John Dehlin [00:43:30] If you weren't a good student, what are you doing applying to Yale?

Rod Decker [00:43:32] Well, I, I had hopes maybe they'd let me in. I did well on the SATs and that stuff. I did well enough. I, if it had been just that, I might have gotten in. But then they looked at my grades and said, no, no, no, you're okay. So I went to the U, joined a fraternity.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] And what year is this, by the way? What about. You're starting the U of what year?

Rod Decker [00:44:06] 59.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] Okay. So last year of Eisenhower's administration.

Rod Decker [00:44:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] Nixon's running against Kennedy for president.

Rod Decker [00:44:14] Yeah. Not beat the Beatles, aren't Beatles aren't out yet.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Kind of Elvis time. This is pre Beatles, right?

Rod Decker [00:44:21] Oh, yeah. No, it was pre Beatles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of Elvis, though. I didn't. I didn't listen or. I only learned to like Elvis after I got older. I didn't like him very much when I was a teenager. Which is. Which was. We went to Dave Brubeck and George Shearing and accounted ourselves very sophisticated.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Who is that? Who's that?

Rod Decker [00:44:47] David? They were jazz. Jazz bands. Modern jazz. Dave. Dave Brubeck. You'll still hear him if you listen to K K U E R or. Or to the. The stations that have jazz shows. He did Take Five and Blue Rondo. All a Turk. He was a. He was a pianist and. And had a. Had a band of five members and. And he was. He was sort of an acquired taste.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Okay. Okay. So you're at the U. And how do things progress?

University of Utah and Influential Mentors

Rod Decker [00:45:28] Well, I joined a fraternity.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Which one?

Rod Decker [00:45:31] PI Kappa Alpha.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Okay.

Rod Decker [00:45:33] And I. I became intensely concerned about the truth of the religion.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] What happened? Why?

Rod Decker [00:45:46] Well, I just. Just. I thought of myself as. I wanted to be an intellectual. I wanted to be a. A guy who read and studied and. And knew things. That was. That was what I wanted to do.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] Did you know Lowell Bennion or Ted Guerlain?

Rod Decker [00:46:03] Yes, I knew them both.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] Were they in there?

Rod Decker [00:46:05] Were they very well?

John Dehlin [00:46:06] What. Were they in the Institute at the time?

Rod Decker [00:46:08] Yes. I took a class from T. Edgar Lyon. I took it when I was in high school. My mom took the class. I took a class from T. Edgar Lyon and I took another one from Duff Hanks.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Marion Hanks?

Rod Decker [00:46:22] Yeah. And. And they were both very impressive.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] What were they like? What do you remember about them?

Rod Decker [00:46:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] They're important, right? They're important in the history of the church, I think.

Rod Decker [00:46:33] Yeah. Yeah. T. Edgar Lyon was balding and had gray. Gray hair. I kind of think of it as sticking out. And he taught. He taught church history. What I remember is when he talked about the legislature in the territory, why should the bishop of the fourth Ward run against the bishop of the fifth ward when everyone knows the stake president ought to go? And that was a. That's a quote. And he. And he was humorous and good. Duff Hanks was. Was a very sincere man. And he. And he. He. He gave a. He was a president of 70. And I. I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but a general authority. And he was. He was a good teacher. He told stories of people he knew and of. Of faith. And he told a story of. He told A story of a guy who was a graduate student and who worked hard, said, I've got to get it done. And it turned out Duff Hanks found later he had cancer, but he knew he would die soon. But it was important to him to get his graduate work done. And, and he talked about, he talked about a, he talked about when he was young and he would buy a big pickle for a nickel. He knew he wasn't supposed to. He said, even then I had temptations I couldn't resist. But, but he was, he was, he was charming and, and, and an easy man to like. I thought I was just at his class. He later moved up to Butler street, which was in our neighborhood, in our ward. I don't, I don't ever see him at ward, but I used to see him on the street sometimes that we'd say, hi, but I don't think he ever knew my name. I don't think any, I don't think any of the, any of the guys we've mentioned that ever knew my name.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] Really quickly. For listeners who don't know anything about Marion Hanks, as I understand it, he ends up just a year or two after you're with him, going to the British Isles, becoming a mission president. He was, and he was Jeffrey R. Holland's mission president in the British Isles during the baseball baptisms scandal that erupts in the early 60s. And he's a beloved general authority that many view was, was on the more liberal or progressive side. And that takes me to the other reason why I bring up Lowell Bennion and Tedgar Lyon, because prior to the whole Leonard Arrington, 1972-1982, Camelot Years of history, it was Lil Bennion and Tedgar Lyon that were sort of on the vanguard of Mormon intellectual thought and factual Mormon history. And they become the inspiration for the Dialogue generation and the Sunstone generation that comes later. It's my understanding that Duff Hanks, Lowell Bennion, and TE Edgar Lyon are really important influences that lead to the dialogue in Sunstone years, which then leads to Mormon stories, podcasts, and other types of

Rod Decker [00:49:55] things you don't know about Lowell Bennion. My impression is that if Duff Hanks and T. Edgar Lyon, if they're listening somewhere and they think, oh, that they said, I wouldn't have wanted to be the, the, the foundation of criticism of the church. I think they were both, what I

John Dehlin [00:50:17] mean is truthful history, honest history.

Rod Decker [00:50:21] Okay, we could talk about that now or later. I, I, and you could just, you knew him. I Did Voltaire. What is history but lies that have been agreed upon? And Voltaire wrote some history. History. There is in history now there's a guy named White, and he writes of history as fiction, of how history and fiction are related. They are stories we tell ourselves. They are constructions we make. Now there is certainly truth in history in terms of fidelity to the evidence and so forth, but I don't think it's. History is a lot of what you think is important and a lot of. Of what you wish to emphasize and a lot of the story you wish to tell. And, and. And I am not bothered of. I am not a believer, but I am not bothered much by the history of the church. It's. It's a human institution.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] That's what you'd expect.

Rod Decker [00:51:39] It's a human institution. The, the human institutions. Things happen. There's a. You say. I can say it all this is sophisticated happens. And they. And it happens in. In all human institute, in all human institutions. And how important is it in the scheme of things whether one of the Cannon brothers had an extramarital affair? How important is it? Well, people, you could say people are trying to cover it up. They think it's maybe best just left alone. All of us. All of us have things that we think are maybe best just left alone.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] Yeah, no, that's profound. Were you trying to distinguish between Lowell Bennion and Ted, your line and Marion Hanks or not? Did I. Did I miss. Hear that?

Rod Decker [00:52:42] Oh, I didn't know Lowell Benjamin very well. I took a class from Marion Hanks and T. Edgar Lyon and I, and they were really good and I paid close attention. I like 70, 60 years later and I can quote them. And so I think I have an understanding of them. Lowell Bennion, I just, I never took a class from him. I knew who he was, said hi to him, but just don't know the

John Dehlin [00:53:11] reason why they were important to me. And I started reading these biographies right after my faith crisis was because my understanding is ultimately they were both forced out of the University of Utah Institute. Both Hanks and Lion, Bennion and Lyon were.

Rod Decker [00:53:29] Oh my goodness.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] And it was because. And historians tell me if I'm wrong here, but it was because the apostles at the time were uncomfortable with the free thought and the candid history that was going on. And so this becomes the precursor to the Camelot years and the September 6th and all that.

Rod Decker [00:53:50] T. Edgar Lyons seem to me to be faithful and orthodox, but just history's

John Dehlin [00:53:58] not all truth is useful. And so even if you're faithful. If you're talking about things that are true but not useful, you can get in trouble. And that's an ongoing theme.

Rod Decker [00:54:06] Yeah, that may be. That may be. And I don't. The church probably did some bad things with. With people who wanted only to be truthful, but who were faithful, but almost. I am now reading. I am now reading black history and I'm reading about crime in America and people, scholars of race in America, it seems to me, and they say they are careful to tell a narrative which emphasizes the troubles that blacks have had and the good things they've done and not to emphasize some of the bad things African Americans may have done. And they believe that that's the proper attitude and that is the proper attitude. And it happens there. And I think maybe one might see how that attitude could spill over with respect to the church too.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] Right. Okay. So you were saying that at some point in your University of Utah years, the truth of the church became really important.

Rod Decker [00:55:35] It was becoming important before then. It was becoming. That seemed to me to be the question of whether one wanted to be a Mormon or not. Seemed to me to be a question of whether the church was true. If the church was true, then surely you wanted to be a Mormon. If the church was not true, then surely you didn't. It seemed to me to be decisive and the. I came to the conclusion it wasn't true. Now, besides that I was at a fraternity and I learned to drink beer. Drinking beer encourages one to think the church isn't true. I don't know to what extent I left because of drinking beer or what, or because of. Of an intellectual commitment that it wasn't true. It was a long process. It was a two, three year process.

Intellectual Doubts and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:56:41] Well, talk about. Can you talk about what were the intellectual topics that made you start to wonder if it wasn't true, to doubt that it was true. Did you read books? Did you read history?

Rod Decker [00:56:52] Was it just a logical book? I read Fawn Brody,

John Dehlin [00:56:57] late 50s, early

Rod Decker [00:56:58] 60s, something like that? Yeah, maybe. Like maybe. May I read her probably after I'd already was already skeptical. I took classes from Thomas o' Day and, and looked at his stuff I read.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Why? What was that? How did that influence your faith?

Rod Decker [00:57:21] Well, he wrote the Mormons and he was himself, I think, an atheist. He was a. He'd been raised Catholic, but he was not religious and he was a sociologist of religion. His book the Mormons was famous for a time and is still. Is still read by sociologist. Yeah, he was at the U. He was a Harvard graduate. He Was at the U. And then he went Cal, Irvine, Cal maybe something, one of the Cal universities, and became head of there department. He was, he was a. He was a good scholar and I took classes from him. A big thing. A big thing I remember is I read Bertrand Russell and Bertrand Russell made fun of religion. And, and I. I think that that's often the case. I don't know that you could disprove religion. You can, but he, he made fun of it and that affected me. I read a lot of Bertrand Russell. He was an English philosopher. I had a lot of talks with older fraternity boys who'd left the. Left the church.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Okay. And this is just stuff that is really important to me and I think to many of my listeners. So as you're, you know, 19, 20, 21, you're reading secular stuff, you're exposed, you're taking courses that are critical. You know, the church has this theology, one true church prophet that talks to God, Holy Scripture, Bible, Book of Mormon, you know, all the moral rules. Can you share with us some of the thoughts that you're having as a college kid at the U. About why it starts to. Not. What, what aspects of the church stop making sense to you? Because this is before a lot of people figured it out.

Rod Decker [00:59:13] One other big, big influence was Sterling McMurray. Waldemar P. Reed.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Yeah.

Rod Decker [00:59:21] Both of whom were former seminary teachers and who taught philosophy at the U. I took classes from them and they used to give these. They called them great issues seminars where the, The U. Philosophers would talk about things and they would sort of poke at the church. Waldemar P. Reed. Obert C. Tanner.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] The Swearing Elders.

Rod Decker [00:59:46] What were they called?

John Dehlin [00:59:47] The Swearing Elders.

Rod Decker [00:59:49] They may have been. Well, I didn't call them that.

John Dehlin [00:59:52] Okay.

Rod Decker [00:59:52] Okay. There was a. There was a group of them who met socially who called themselves the Swearing Elders. And I don't know who was in that.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:00:02] Okay. But.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Tanner. Obert. Tanner. O.C. tanner. This is O.C. tanner, the guy that had the jewelry.

Rod Decker [01:00:07] Yeah, yeah, he had the jewelry store. He was a philosophy teacher at the U. He had a. He had a degree from a German university and he taught philosophy of religion.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] And before that he, he created curriculum for the church. So. I mean.

Rod Decker [01:00:22] Yeah. Oh, yeah, he wrote. Yeah, he wrote a Sunday school manual or something. Something like that. His mom was Annie Clark Tanner, who wrote a really good book, A Borman Mother. And he, he. I took class. I took a. I took philosophy of religion from him. And then they'd give these seminars or these. It was at Orson Spencer Hall Auditorium and they. The auditorium would be half full or two thirds full. Quite a few people came out and they talked quite a bit about religion and about philosophy and about the arguments for. Sterling McBurn gave a paper, Is God a Person? About. Okay. Waldemar P. Reed gave a notorious lecture, freedom and the Local Culture, saying.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] What's that about?

Rod Decker [01:01:31] What?

John Dehlin [01:01:31] What is that about?

Rod Decker [01:01:32] He. He said that the. The Latter Day Saint Church used trickery, the sort of thing you're talking about hiding their, Hiding their history, putting. Putting pressure on young people to stay at the church. And he, He. He said that they. They should be more open and free.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Who is this again?

Rod Decker [01:01:55] Waldemar P. Reed.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] I've never heard of that name. Waldemore.

Rod Decker [01:01:59] Waldemar. W, A, L, D, E, M, A, R. It's Baltimore. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:05] P. And then Reed.

Rod Decker [01:02:07] How do you spell Reed? I think it's R, E, A, D, E. Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:02:12] And he was, he was a. He and McMurran were good friends. He had been raised Mormon. He had. He got his PhD at the University of Chicago. He taught seminary for a time, for a year or two, I think, as a paid seminary teacher out in a rural town, got a job at the U and became a local critic of the church. He was always kind of poked fun. He was never. He was hardly ever emotional, but he was. He was kind of making a little fun from the sidelines was his style.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Well, I just have to note that, you know, it seems like as long as I've been paying attention to Mormonism, there always been these generations or cohorts of public church critics. So, for example, you know, I'm at BYU in the 90s, and it's the September Six and the Sunstone and the Dialogue crowd. Right?

Rod Decker [01:03:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] And now it would be, you know, various podcasters, for example.

Rod Decker [01:03:19] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] But it sounds like you were intellectually turned on to Mormonism in the early 60s during a time where there was this cohort in, you know, again, in Vatican City, downtown, Salt Lake City Central. You've got O.C. tanner, you've got, you know, Sterling. Sterling McMurran, Waldemore Reed, and this cohort of intellectual, well respected individuals. And by the way, certainly McMurran was like under Secretary of Education for John F. Kennedy or Secretary of Education.

Rod Decker [01:03:55] He wasn't Secretary of Education because they didn't have an apartment that he was Commissioner of Education.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] Like a heavyweight, an intellectual heavyweight in the United States.

Rod Decker [01:04:04] He was a serious man. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] And so all these dudes are like your professors, and they're openly, publicly criticizing the church In Vatican City. Right.

Rod Decker [01:04:13] They openly and publicly. They weren't. Okay. McBurn is God a person? And most philosophers don't think God is a person. And he was sort of like that. The idea of God as a person is an old idea. The Hebrews may have believed it at some time or other, but they didn't. They didn't as it evolved is what scholars would say. Greeks believed Gods were people and not particularly good people at that. And. He didn't believe that God was a person. If there was a God. And he. He was, it was. He was abstruse. He. He was not. Waldemar P. Reed had had more style at the lectern. He made jokes, he smiled. He had, he made.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] He.

Rod Decker [01:05:17] He was witty. Sterling McBurn read a paper and it was a philosophy, an academic, philosophical paper that he read, but he was a heavyweight. And none of them, none of them, Waldemar P. Read more than any of the others. The others didn't confront the church directly, but they, they kind of. They were poking away at the other kind of poke. Poked at it.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] Yeah.

Rod Decker [01:05:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] There's a point where certainly Memorial almost got excommunicated, as I understand it. And David, I think I read this in David O. McKay in the Rise of Modern Mormonism. David O. McKay said, Leave sterling alone. Yeah, but I think Joseph Smith was going to.

Rod Decker [01:06:02] Story. That's, That's a story that's out there. And it was told. It was told when I was at the U. That David O. McKay had protected McMurran

John Dehlin [01:06:11] from Joseph feeling Smith. Right.

Rod Decker [01:06:13] I don't know who. I don't remember. And there. And, and, and he may have been in trouble more than once. And I don't know that it would have bothered him so much had they kicked him out. I don't think he went to church.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] Yeah.

Rod Decker [01:06:27] And, and I. He wasn't. I don't. I don't know. But they never kicked out Waldemar P. Reed either. Oral Obert. C. Tanner was sort of a. He was the. More of a member. He wrote, he wrote, as you said. He developed curriculum. He wrote Sunday school manuals at one

John Dehlin [01:06:50] point and must have lost his faith at some point. Right.

Rod Decker [01:06:53] I don't know, but maybe he had his faith all along. He was a sort of liberal religionist. He, he sort of thought reli. He. He saw religion. He said in his classes one definition of religion might be the pursuit of the good, the true and the beautiful. He believed. He, he liked. I think it was Harry Emerson Fosdick. I'm not sure He. There was a, a cleric in New York in the 30s or so who Albert Tanner liked. He said he believed in intelligent religion. This cleric did. And Albert Tanner thought that was good. He thought religion should be intelligent. He believed religion was a rich history, a tradition of high thought and guides to good living. And he didn't worry. He thought about truth. But he thought, well, maybe there's a God, and if there is, then I'm in this tradition and this is, But I'm not, I'm not narrow or like that. And I don't know what his personal beliefs were, but he was open to religion and open. He thought religion could be and ought to be an influence for good among people.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:08:25] And that was the side he was on.

John Dehlin [01:08:28] Okay, so you're in your sophomore, junior, senior years at the U, hearing all these lectures, trying to figure out if it's true and what you're going to do about it. Right?

Rod Decker [01:08:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] And so tell us how that.

Rod Decker [01:08:40] Well, the drinking side became important. And I, I.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] Was it against the church at the time to drink beer? Was it a no, no beer? Was it a big no, no or a little no, no at the time in the church? Yeah. Was it a big sin?

Rod Decker [01:08:58] Yeah, I don't, I don't know how big it was. You weren't supposed to do it.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Okay. Would it keep you out of the temple if he did?

Rod Decker [01:09:04] But yeah, yeah, they wouldn't say. I mean, if, if you drank beer when you were 18 and you quit when you were 21, they'd let you into the temple when you were 21.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Right.

Rod Decker [01:09:13] But if you were drinking beer now, it was violation of the word of wisdom. And I think I, I, the only times I went to the temple were to be baptized for the dead when I was a kid. And, and then they, you didn't have to have a recommend. You were just a kid. But, so I never knew. I don't know what they said in, in that. And it was, it was, I think, less centralized. I think it depended more on your bishop. He could do more what he wanted. And, but I think if you were drinking beer and said, I was drinking beer, they wouldn't let you go to the temple.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:09:51] And I, I think they tell you, I, I, they wouldn't keep you off your mission, but they, they'd say, you gotta, you can't do that on your mission. Okay. So I was drinking beer and playing cards and living a generally ne' er do well life, and I missed a lot of class and my grades suffered the first quarter of my sophomore Year I became a serious beer drinker. The summer between my freshman and sophomore years. I had drunk before then, but not very much. But then I began drinking a lot. And by the first quarter of my sophomore year I scheduled two classes at the same time so I wouldn't have to get up early in the morning. I could conserve my valuable time and go to one or the other. But then I started cutting them both and my parents were very concerned. And my father. One morning he woke me up. He'd had my bag packed. He put me in the car and took me to BYU and enrolled me in byu. He'd withdrawn me from the U. So I went to byu.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] What was that like for you?

Rod Decker [01:11:26] I did a semester at byu. I was not very happy at byu. I was not terribly unhappy. I. The truth of the church kept. Still seemed to me. I didn't know I was. I didn't know whether I. Whether it was true. And it still seemed to be the most important question. I took a class from Truman Madsen there, a religion class. And it was okay. I didn't. I didn't like him as well as either Duff Hanks or T. Edgar Law.

John Dehlin [01:12:03] Why not?

Rod Decker [01:12:05] I don't know. Okay. What I remember about him is, is thinking this. He said once, he said, now people say it's silly to believe that, that you should be buried right next to your next of kin so that at the resurrection you can jump right up and hug him that wasn't his, but you can jump right up and be there. But we believe that. We believe that. And I thought what he's doing is he's thinking of some things. He's building a hedge. He's thinking of some things to believe that he doesn't have to believe so that he could avoid thinking about the things he does have to believe. That's what I thought at the time, that that was probably unjust, but that's what I thought. And he, he was. He came to class sometimes and I think he'd been fasting. He was hollow eyed and seemed. See quiet of voice and, and seemed as if he were having a spiritual experience. Maybe he just had the flu, I don't know. But he, he. I was less, less impressed with him than I had been with, with, as I say with Lyon and Hanks. I took other classes. I. I ran into a philosopher down there who. I asked, I asked him about whether the church was true. And he said, well, it doesn't matter. He said whether the church is true. You could believe it or not.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] What would you think about that answer.

Rod Decker [01:13:39] At the end of that. At the end of that year, a friend and I went to Europe. I spent the summer fighting forest fires, saved some money and we took a boat to Europe and spent a year working in Europe. In those days, things were different. You could. We worked in Berlin at what's called a Knockbarschaftsheim. We were there the month after the Wall went up and they let us work there because it had been a place that provided beds for refugees from East Germany, but there weren't any more because of the Wall. So they let us sleep where the refugees had slept and we were janitors and that. I worked as a.

John Dehlin [01:14:31] This is the equinine Berliner time with Jeff Kennedy.

Rod Decker [01:14:34] Yeah, that's right.

Early 1960s, Civil Rights, and Political Awakening

John Dehlin [01:14:34] John F. Kennedy.

Rod Decker [01:14:35] Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] Cold War. This is thick in the Cold War.

Rod Decker [01:14:41] And we were, we were that. That. I. I was a dishwasher in Garmish part in Kirschen, which is skiing town in Bavaria.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] I just have to say this is around the time the Beatles were performing in Germany.

Rod Decker [01:14:55] About the time that.

John Dehlin [01:14:56] This is. The Beatles were really big in Germany, like in 64.

Rod Decker [01:15:00] But they weren't big. They weren't big. I never, never, never heard of the Beatles.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] Interesting.

Rod Decker [01:15:06] While I was in. While I was in Germany that we listened to some German rock and roll. Some of it. Okay. In Germany I was with a. A friend traveling with a friend who was a historian, a history student. He became a. A history teacher in college and he had studied some. Some of Latter Day Saint history and he talked a little of the sort of stuff that you talk about, but that wasn't important in Germany. I drank beer. I lived.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] Real beer. Good beer, right?

Rod Decker [01:15:44] Yeah, good beer. My, My mom sent my mail to the, to the mission homes, hoping to get me in with the missionaries. And a lot of my friends were in Germany on missions. I went and saw them and we, we'd stay together and things and we saw. So. So I, I was. I thought about the church a lot while I was in Germany and. And I, I think it was there more than anywhere else where I decided that, that I wasn't going to be a Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] Because. Because this is typically the age when a. When a kid of your age would have been on a Mormon mission.

Rod Decker [01:16:26] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] You might.

Rod Decker [01:16:27] Were there. And I went and saw him and talked to him.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:16:33] All four or five of them.

John Dehlin [01:16:35] So I'm just interested. Can you. What can you tell us about like, the conclusions you drew that said, okay, beer on the one hand and intellectual curiosity and secularism, Faith on the other. How did you arrive at that conclusion of choosing beer and secularism or how would you frame it? I'm saying that in general.

Rod Decker [01:16:58] Yeah, okay. No, that's fair. Okay. It seems to me that, that if you just look at the church, it's probably not true. It's probably not true that God appeared to Joseph Smith. It's probably not true that the angel Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith. Now you can't show that it's false. I don't think there's any way to disprove it. But you think of things in the world those aren't the sorts of things that happen. I don't wish to be disrespectful in any way, but I've seen Elvis too. I mean it's sort of flying saucers and Elvis. It's sort of in those kinds of stories and, and these have a much deeper meaning. And I understand people who believe because it's important in their lives and they look for the deeper meaning in Latter Day Saint teachings. I think that's perfectly respectable. But I, when I was young thought, is this true really? Probably not. And you can't disprove it. But I wasn't there. I don't know whether God appeared to Joseph Smith. But that isn't the sort of thing that normally happens. That isn't the sort of thing. That isn't the sort of thing you'd ordinarily believe any more than you'd ordinarily believe a guy was picked up by a flying saucer. Now he may have been, but I don't. That's. It was, it was a sort of decision. That's not what I'm going to believe. Neither that somebody was picked up by a flying saucer nor that somebody had a vision,

John Dehlin [01:19:12] Joseph Smith saw Moroni or

Rod Decker [01:19:13] golden plates or I'm not going to believe those things.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] Yeah.

Rod Decker [01:19:17] And, and since then it's, it's. While it still seems to me it isn't, probably isn't true. That seems to me to matter less. It seems to me that, that while truth is nice that that truth. Truth may be for God, not for people. It. I don't know whether anybody knows the truth. And this is something that you can choose and do and it helps you dance gracefully to the music of time and gives you an explanation of things. And I think a lot of smart people believe it. And I don't necessarily agree with, with what I believed or what I decided at 20. My attitude now is of a 19th century Jewish intellectual. I'M an atheist, but I'm a Jewish atheist and it's very hard to be. You can be a Jewish atheist. I don't know whether you can be a Mormon atheist. I'm an atheist or an agnostic. But I have, I have warm feelings towards the church and I believe that a person could be a Latter Day Saint and be perfectly intellectually respectable.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] Sure. Okay. Thank you. That was really, that was really useful to me. So I'm thinking about the early 60s now. I mean, I think about when I was growing up. If you, if you leave the church, it's a problem. Your parents are disappointed in you?

Rod Decker [01:21:17] My mom. My mom. I broke my mother's heart. My dad.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] Do you want to talk about that? Your dad didn't care.

Rod Decker [01:21:22] She did. She, she just wanted me to go on a mission very badly and wanted me to be a Mormon very badly. And she was a serious Mormon and she kept after me. And I was close to my mom, closer to my mom when I was 14, 15, 16, than I was later. And part of it was we were, we still loved each other and got along, but we were a bit estranged by my leaving the church. And I felt bad about it. Still do.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] I mean, I hate it when religion comes between family. It's one of the worst things about.

Rod Decker [01:21:58] Okay, now that isn't quite that sounds. You're blaming religion. It wasn't religion. It was just, just it, it was just that she believed and, and, and wanted me to believe and believe and, and she thought that, that Mormonism was the most important thing and she loved me.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] Right.

Rod Decker [01:22:17] She wanted me to be a Mormon and, and, and I felt, I felt I might have said she ought to let me make my own decision or something like that. I don't know. But I was. Because she loved me. You wouldn't. If your son became a drug addict and you became estranged from him, You might become estranged from him, feel bad. But I don't know that that's because some drug. You've talked to, you know, drug users who are mad at their parents and they say, well, they're closed minded, that they don't like me. You know those people. Well, I don't want to be that way toward my mom. I don't want to say that she was closed minded. I don't think it was her, her, her fault or the religion's fault in any way. It was just I, I chose differently and it was a problem for us.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] Yeah. And to be clear, when I, you know, you use the word estranged, not me. And when I Said I hate it when religion comes between people. I'm not saying it's a conscious, intentional act on the part of church leaders or that your mom was ill willed or retributive. I'm just saying that religion as a phenomenon.

Rod Decker [01:23:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] Does come between family members sometimes.

Rod Decker [01:23:41] Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, we were, we were, we were loving and friendly to the end, but we weren't as close as we, as we had been.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] And that's sad to me when that happens.

Rod Decker [01:23:54] And I, I disappointed her.

John Dehlin [01:23:57] That's hard. So you broke your mom's heart. And what was it like to come back to Utah having made those conclusions?

Rod Decker [01:24:06] I was a better student. I, I settled down. That it had little to do with religion. It was just that I was older and thought time to settle down. I settled down and became a student, a better student, though still not. I still drank too much beer and, and was not a really good student, but I became a better student and I hung out of the fraternity house and I wrote for the crony and graduated from college.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] Okay, so what did you want, what

Rod Decker [01:24:41] did you wanted to be A college professor? A professor of political science. I went to the University of Chicago.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] Okay, what year did you graduate? First of all, what year?

Rod Decker [01:24:52] 65.

John Dehlin [01:24:53] 65. Okay. By this time JFK has been assassinated. LBJ becomes president in 63.

Rod Decker [01:25:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:01] He's trying to do the civil rights

Rod Decker [01:25:02] stuff to have 60. 64. I was at the U and we at the crony were strongly for LBJ against Barry Goldwater. 64 was Barry Goldwater.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] Do you remember when JFK was assassinated?

Rod Decker [01:25:14] Oh, yeah, I remember. I was in Orson Spencer hall walking out of class and somebody came running up and says, and said he's been shot. And I was with Roger Porter. We ran over to the Chronicle office. We both worked for the crony and got the wire turned and got on the. They had then a teletype that had national news on it and it came out there. There was a big roll of paper that came out and then you'd rip it off when you wanted it and take it to write from it, to put it for the paper. We went over to look at the, to see the teletype and see. And we followed it from that. Learned then soon after he was shot, they said he was dead.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] Do you remember the emergence of Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement in the early 60s?

Rod Decker [01:26:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:08] And what were you thinking about that?

Rod Decker [01:26:11] I was for civil rights then and not as much as an acquaintance of mine who went to Mississippi, but I was, I was pro civil Rights and pro Martin Luther King. And I saw John F. Kennedy speak at Kingsbury Hall.

John Dehlin [01:26:32] He came to Utah, right?

Rod Decker [01:26:33] Yeah, I think it was in. I think it was in 59 maybe. I think it was at the spring. I think it was in the spring of 60. He came. I guess he was running for president or had had in mind to be president. Yeah. And came and gave a speech in. And in Utah. And I heard him.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] And you were a Kennedy guy.

Rod Decker [01:26:59] I didn't vote for him. They didn't let. You had to be 21 to vote then, I think.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:27:06] Yeah. Yeah. But I was. I was pro Kennedy.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] Okay. Were you aware at all of kind of the. The. The dynamic in the quorum of the 12, First Presidency, that Hubie Brown was kind of for civil rights and that Ezra was just emerging as a John Bircher and was against civil rights?

Rod Decker [01:27:27] And I read about it later. At the time.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:27:29] I didn't pay any attention.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] Oblivious to it. Okay. So you. And then I was just gonna ask, do you remember when the Beatles came to America? Do you remember?

Rod Decker [01:27:38] They were. The Beatles were in America. When I came back from Europe. I remember in the union building here hearing, I want to hold your hand on the jukebox.

John Dehlin [01:27:52] Fun. Okay, so you graduate from the U. And you want to be a political science professor. So went to the University of Chicago. Okay. That's a big deal. University of Chicago is like a top.

Rod Decker [01:28:03] It's a good school. Yeah, it's a good school.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] In political science or journalism.

Rod Decker [01:28:07] Yeah, in political science. Okay. I don't think they teach journalism there. And I was there for a couple of years, and I was a lousy graduate student. I'd. I had. I was never a good student. And it sort of caught. I sort of slid by. But I couldn't do that in graduate school. And I was a lousy graduate student after two years. And I was going to flunk out, but I wasn't going to. I could see that I was in trouble when I was in college, and those were the days of the draft and Vietnam. Yeah. But when I went to college, it was before Vietnam when I started. But they had the draft and they. We went and talked to. Sat in a big room with a counselor. The counselor said, look, you gotta go. That was the. That was the theory. Everyone went. Everyone. Everyone was in the military. Every young man was in the military. And. And they. They tried to do that. So they said, look, be an officer. Join rotc. So I did. I was in our army rotc. When I graduated, I got a commission I was a second lieutenant when I, they let me go to graduate school. I got out of graduate school as a first lieutenant. I needed to do something. I said to the army, okay, let's go. I went in the army for two years and I went to Vietnam and I was there for 18 months.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] You fought in Vietnam?

Rod Decker [01:29:47] Well, the only fighting I did was in the bars. The. I was a. An intelligence officer in Saigon and I, I had stacks of paper and I briefed the general. And what was that like? Okay, first off, there wasn't much war. There were attacks in Saigon. There were bombs that went off now and then. But Saigon was, was pretty safe and pretty peaceful. We worked. We worked a lot. We worked in theory, 12 hours a day, seven days a week, probably not that much in practice. I played a lot of poker. I'd played poker in, in college, and I was pretty good, and I won a lot of money and I, I chased girls and I.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] In Vietnam?

Rod Decker [01:30:46] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:47] Local girls.

Rod Decker [01:30:48] Oh, yeah. Vietnamese girls and I. And I drank in the bars and I worked, and that's what I did.

Serving as an Intelligence Officer in Vietnam

John Dehlin [01:30:58] What does an intelligence officer do in Vietnam? In the late 60s, I did two.

Rod Decker [01:31:04] Two things. I had two jobs. The first year I was with an outfit called Strategic Research and Analysis. And my, and our job was to my. The office I was in, our job was to keep track of what they called the Viet Cong infrastructure. The Viet Cong had, in theory, and in. To some extent, in fact, a shadow government. In, in, in. In theory, in every village, some villages they didn't have it, but they had. They had a sort of shadow government throughout the country. And we were supposed to find out about them. They were. United States troops would capture about a million documents a year. About a million pages of documents a year. They had, near where I worked, they had the Combined document exploitation center, CDEC in military talk, where they had about 300 Vietnamese who translated these documents full time. We got the English translation as soon as we got it. They, they also sort of vetted them. They threw away some stuff and, and we looked at the documents. We looked at prisoner interrogation reports. We looked at CIA agent reports. We looked at what was called the Hamlet Evaluation Survey set up. The United States had a shadow government through Vietnam. It was advisors at the province, at the district, and they filled out reports, and we read their reports. They were computerized. It was the early days of computers and the, in the, in the basement of, of the big building called Mac V. Military Assistance Command Vietnam. And it was. It was two store, a basement and two stories and it went on the hundreds of yards of hallways and the, and at the basement, there was a, a big room of computers, and they had these big things with these big tape reels, but for tape reel. The tape reels were that thick, and you could lift them with two hands, and they, and they went from tape reel to tape reel. And Hess was computerized. They didn't work very well. The DOS was the computer language at the time, I think. So they had the computers, and I would read these documents, and then I would, they publish things, and I'd write things for the public to be published, and I would give briefings to. I briefed Ambassador Colby, who was the head of the CIA there. Some people have heard of him. I briefed. I never, I, I, I never briefed Westmoreland or Abrams. I briefed Davidson, who was the head of intelligence in the.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] How about Bob McNamara?

Rod Decker [01:34:33] No, he never, I never briefed any of the sec. Of the Secretaries of Defense. Sec. Def. As they said. I never briefed, but I, I gave briefings and I wrote stuff and I, I read stuff. And, and sometimes we'd take trips out to the countryside to see what was happening. That's what I did. Now, I had another job. I won't describe that, but.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Because it's top secret or.

Rod Decker [01:34:59] No, it's not top secret. It's just enough Vietnam, it seems to me.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] Well, let me ask just one thing. As you are gathering intelligence in Saigon, observing what's going on in shadow governments, what are your thoughts about the wisdom of, of occupying Vietnam, of getting into this war?

Rod Decker [01:35:22] I went over a dove and came back a hawk.

John Dehlin [01:35:24] Well, tell us what that means. I know what that means, but tell us what.

Rod Decker [01:35:27] Okay. I went over thinking it was a bad war, we ought to get out. And I came back thinking we ought to stay and win. And I thought that mostly because.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] Did you say that? The opposite. You went there.

Rod Decker [01:35:41] I went there thinking it was a bad ward, we ought to get out. I came home thinking, wow.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] Thinking I would have thought the opposite would happen.

Rod Decker [01:35:48] That's, that's, that's what happened.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] How did that happen?

Rod Decker [01:35:50] In almost every case.

John Dehlin [01:35:51] Why were you a dove first? Why were you a dove?

Rod Decker [01:35:54] Because of most young Americans at the time, yet the news was of, of what was of, Of a bear, that we, that we couldn't win, that we were escalating to no, to no purpose, that it was a, that we were committing atrocities.

John Dehlin [01:36:16] So this is after Melee.

Rod Decker [01:36:21] Most of the people who were alive at that time who were listening heard that stuff and came to the conclusion that it was a bad war. I thought we should stay because after I was there, because I knew a number of South Vietnamese. When I heard I was going to Vietnam, I didn't want to go. But when I heard I was going, I went to language school. Not army language school. What's the. There's a, There's a famous language school. Maybe the name will come to be. But I went in Monterey. No, no, this wasn't a government school. It's a private school. I hired a tutor and studied Vietnamese and, And I knew South Vietnamese. I never got very good at Vietnamese. I knew. So I knew a bunch of South Vietnamese and they were, they were people who had, we had come and said, look, we'll stay and protect you. And I thought we ought to keep our promise. These people, if we leave, some of them will be killed. Some of them will be sent to labor camp. We ought to, we ought to stay and do what we said we do. And we can if we want. And if we, If I believed. If we stay, we can't beat them in terms of doing a battle that will beat them. And there's no use invading North Vietnam. They'll just retreat into China. But if we stay, they can't do much to us. We can stay and if we stay and fight, eventually we'll work something out and we'll keep our pledge to these people. I felt bad when that didn't work out, but anyhow, that's the. If you ask what I thought about Vietnam, that's what I thought really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] Did your time at Vietnam have any influence on your beliefs in God or your non beliefs in God as they were evolving?

Rod Decker [01:38:18] No, I don't think so. I lived a non Mormon life in Vietnam and kind of liked it, kind of enjoyed it, but no, I went over not believing and came back not believing.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] They say there's no atheists and foxholes kind of thing.

Rod Decker [01:38:35] I was never in a foxhole.

John Dehlin [01:38:36] Right, okay.

Rod Decker [01:38:37] Lots of, lots of atheists in bars.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] That's good. Okay, so you, you, you leave the Vietnam War around what year?

Rod Decker [01:38:49] I left in. I went in 65, so I went 68 to 70. I was in Vietnam. I left in 70.

John Dehlin [01:39:02] Okay, so this was during the Nixon's first administration. Did you like. I'm just curious. Did you like Nixon?

Rod Decker [01:39:08] I voted. I, I voted when he. The first time he ran in 68, I voted for Eldridge Cleaver. Humphrey wasn't anti war enough for me, but I voted for him in 72.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] For Nixon.

Rod Decker [01:39:26] Yeah. As opposed to. Whoa, governor. Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:39:29] So you went from liberal to conservative?

Rod Decker [01:39:32] Yeah, Vietnam made me a conservative. That's so weird. I had a. I mean.

John Dehlin [01:39:37] Cool. It's weird.

Rod Decker [01:39:37] Cool. This is weird. I had. I had a belief that I never really got over, that I thought the news coverage of Vietnam was. Was biased against the United States. That the reporters. I knew some reporters and they were looking for anti US Stories and I thought the coverage was anti us And I still have a. I still have a belief. The news media as a whole, they have a mindset, and their mindset is liberal, progressive, and critical of America. And it isn't. I mean, they are people who do the best they can to get the truth, but you have a way of looking at things, and that's the way of looking the things that predominates in the media. That, that, that. I, I arrived at that belief in Vietnam and I. I still have it to some extent.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] Okay. All right. So you return home a Nixon Republican during the Woodstock era, you know, during the Vietnam era. Yeah, but you're. But you're a non Mormon kind of atheist.

Rod Decker [01:40:59] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] That's interesting.

Rod Decker [01:41:03] I went back to the University of Chicago, but I left without a degree.

John Dehlin [01:41:06] To finish your master's or finish a

Rod Decker [01:41:08] master's or maybe a PhD. But I left without a degree. I got married. I met a woman in Washington, D.C. her name was Chris Schell. She was a student at Georgetown. We got married and we came to Salt Lake. I came to Salt Lake because I was out of graduate school. I needed a job.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] Why didn't you get your degree?

Rod Decker [01:41:33] I never got it.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] Why didn't you?

Rod Decker [01:41:35] I was just. I was just no good. I couldn't write a master's.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] Were you depressed about that? Were you sad?

Rod Decker [01:41:40] Yeah. Yeah, I was depressed. I went to a psychiatrist.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] Really?

Rod Decker [01:41:44] The. The university offered psychiatrists. And I went and saw Dr. Schwartz. He smoked a pipe and went. And I started talking. After 40 minutes, he went. I left.

John Dehlin [01:42:00] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:42:01] He was a young guy. He was an. A resident.

Starting a Career in Utah Journalism

John Dehlin [01:42:04] I mean, as I'm reading this and I'm just going to plug it as I'm reading this amazing book, Rod Decker's Utah Politics. The Elephant in the Room. It's. It's top notch. So you clearly have the. You're clearly a good writer and you clearly know how to research.

Rod Decker [01:42:20] In those days, I could do journalism. I could do journalism, but I couldn't do. I did some academic papers, but I just had. I just had horrible time doing academic papers. I was. Did a thesis. I had a master's thesis on Vietnam. And I. The language alert. Language alert. I had a master's thesis on Vietnam, and I'd done lots and lots of research. And I remember walking out of the library, and I had. I had an armload like this of papers. A guy said, what's that? And I said, that's my master's thesis.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] He said, wow.

Rod Decker [01:43:01] Wow, that's a lot. And I said, it's a lot of shit. And I told that to Dr. Schwartz. And he perked right up. He said, when I was in college, in the dorms, the cry went down the hall, come look. Come look. And we went into the. Into the men's bathroom, and there in the toilet was a shit that was this big. He said, Mr. Decker, we must learn to be proud of our shit. He was a Freudian, maybe the last of the Freudians.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] So you just didn't value or love the research then, or.

Rod Decker [01:43:45] Oh, I like doing research. I couldn't write. I sit down and I. Writer's block, you could call it that. I just. I couldn't do it. I don't know quite what it was. I went to a psychiatrist to try to do it, and I didn't quite understand why I couldn't. Never quite understood why I couldn't, and I never could.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] So in some sense, this book is like redemption. It's. Is it. Is it redemption?

Rod Decker [01:44:11] It's redemption. I thought of it.

John Dehlin [01:44:13] You did it?

Rod Decker [01:44:13] I thought of it as redemption when I started it. I did it for the first one. I mean, I. The second one, especially. This is. This is the second one. This is the. This is the political science career I was never able to do.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] You nailed it.

Rod Decker [01:44:31] Well, thank you. But I don't know. I mean, that. But in any case, that was. That was part of the reason that. That I did it. And I thought. When I start. I mean, I thought from start to finish, and still. Redemption. Okay. So. But anyhow, I left and I. We got married and we came to Utah. And when. When I was in the seventh grade, my seminary teacher was named William B. Smart, and he worked for the Deseret News. And he later became general manager, which is what they called, I guess, the editor or the publisher. He was. He was the boss, and. And he did. He did the editorial content, but he was. He was sort of the boss of the place.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] And so.

Rod Decker [01:45:23] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] No, no.

Rod Decker [01:45:24] Okay. He. When I was in high school, said, why don't you go into journalism abroad and you come to work at the Deseret News? Because he knew me from. From. He moved up and Became neighbors with my parents. And he knew me from. From seminary. Okay. So I needed a job. I called him and said, remember what you said? By then he had seen how I turned out and said, oh, I'm sorry, Rod, we're all full. But my mom, he was at the ward and my mom just sort of looked at him reproachfully until he hired me. And so I went to work for the Deseret mom for the win.

John Dehlin [01:46:10] Yeah, mom comes, comes.

Rod Decker [01:46:12] Bob got me the job.

John Dehlin [01:46:14] Okay, so really quickly, I mentioned Edward R. Murrow and Chet Hunley and David Brinkley. And did you have journalistic influences in the 50s and 60s?

Rod Decker [01:46:24] Okay. None of them were TV journalists. Let's. I liked. I liked people who wrote for intellectual journals. I subscribed to Commentary like Buckley, William F. Buckley. No, I never much cared for William F. Buckley. I liked Hannah Arendt. Hannah Arendt. I liked Epstein, Joseph Epstein. I liked people who wrote. Who wrote for high class pulps like

John Dehlin [01:47:06] New Yorker, Atlantic Monthly.

Rod Decker [01:47:08] Not the New Yorker, less the Atlantic Monthly, particularly Commentary and the New York Review of Books.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:47:15] Now, I've read the Atlantic sometimes, and I liked some of their stuff and so forth, but okay. And. That's the sort of stuff I liked, but I wrote for the Deseret News, and that was different. And I wasn't a very good journalist when I started, but I worked hard and got to be better. And the Deseret News. The church was at issue. I wish the. The church was. It kept much closer track on the Deseret News in those days than it does now. It. It expected the Deseret News to be a. Not a propaganda piece for the church, but an organ for the church. The. I got there just after this ended, but the. They told stories. Claire Middlemass was the personal secretary of David O. McKay.

John Dehlin [01:48:20] Right.

Rod Decker [01:48:21] And David O. McKay at his final couple of years was senile. And. And Claire Middlemass, it was said, ran the church. And she would call the Deseret News and say, oh, would you put his picture in for this? And he didn't know. She just. She just would. Would call and say. And then if it wasn't on the front page, she'd call and say, put it on the front page. And they were. They were much closer to the church than they. Than they are now. The Nazaret News was.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] That's saying something because I think it's still an arm for the church in order to.

Rod Decker [01:49:00] Well, I think it's freer than it was.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] Wow.

Rod Decker [01:49:06] And. But it was still a good Newspaper. And I was a new. I was. I wrote editorials and I was a columnist for the. For the Deseret.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] What types of editorials and columns? What types of editorials and columns?

Rod Decker [01:49:21] Well, I wrote a lot about politics, and I wrote about local issues, and I had fun. I felt somewhat oppressed, and I looked back and think. I felt somewhat censored. I look back and think that I should have. I sympathize with them more than I do now. If you're going to have a columnist, the publisher gets to choose the columnist. And I should have been. But I then applied for and received a scholarship. It's called a Nieman Fellowship at Harvard for a year for journalists. So I went there for a year for journalists. We just had our first son, and my wife and I and my son went to Cambridge and lived for a year and I went to Harvard.

John Dehlin [01:50:24] That's prestigious. That's fancy.

Rod Decker [01:50:26] Yeah, that's fancy. Yeah. And it was fun. It was a good time. Then I came back.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] Were you a good student by then?

Rod Decker [01:50:33] What?

John Dehlin [01:50:33] Were you a good student by then?

Rod Decker [01:50:35] I was a better student, but I still couldn't write. Well, I mean, but I was a better student. I didn't write any papers at Harvard. I took. I took exams and passed exams, but I didn't. Didn't write any papers. You had a choice. You didn't even. Fellows do. Do what they want. You take classes, but you can just sit if you want. You can do. I guess I did a paper. I did do a paper on. On. On Plato's Protagoras for Martha Nussbaum. So one paper. She didn't give it a grade. So I. I was there a year, and then I came back the Deseret News and worked there a couple of more years, and we. We didn't get along so well.

John Dehlin [01:51:36] You and the desert?

Rod Decker [01:51:37] Less and less. And so what was the nature of the. Oh, it wasn't clear. They. I took to criticizing Mountain Fuel Supply. It was a complicated story about natural gas, but the head of Mountain Fuel Supply was friends with the church, and so they didn't want Mountain Fuel Supply criticized. I don't think they do that now. I criticized Robert B. Hanson, the Attorney General, but he was a bishop, so they. They didn't want him criticized so much.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] So why were you criticizing him?

Rod Decker [01:52:17] Oh, for several reasons. He was a smart guy, but he. He was kind of flaky. While he was Attorney General, he continued in the private practice of law. Now, some attorney generals did that. It was done for a number of years. But it was way past time when it should have stopped. And he took a case over a used piano. And I wrote a column. What's that you, the attorney general of the state of Utah doing hassling over a used piano? That seemed to be not what he ought to be doing. He ought to be paying attention to Utah stuff. And, and okay, what was wrong with Mountain Fuel Supply?

John Dehlin [01:53:04] Why were you.

Rod Decker [01:53:05] Well, it was a complicated story. I can tell it. They, they formed a company called wexpro, a subsidiary. Wexpro explored for natural gas, made a huge find. And, but, and, and they said, Mountain Fuel said, we found this on our own. So the profits from this huge find will go to our stockholders. There'll be profits. No, no, no, said the state lawyers. You're a utility. This was found with utility money. This goes into the utility and it helps hold rates down. You get for citizens. Yeah, you get a, you get a 10% or. I don't remember what the return was. 8% return on it, the same as if, if it were a gas pipe. And I cited against Mountain Fuel and said, look, they, they, the money, they, they took utility money to, to set up the company. So therefore it ought to be utility findings. Anyhow, we f. But they were, they were, they didn't like what I wrote and they threatened to sue. And then they went to the bosses and the bosses told me, lay off Mountain Fuel. So anyhow, those sorts of things and I, I looked for a place and I. Channel 2 hired me.

John Dehlin [01:54:45] So if I had to summarize, what I think I just heard is that as a journalist in Utah, you're willing and maybe even eager to confront the powers that be, powerful corporate interests, even members of the church or high level people who are associated with the church, who represent the church during those eight years at Deseret News. And over time, that, that probably started to make the Desert News and the church uncomfortable.

Rod Decker [01:55:15] I don't know whether the church or the Desert News uncomfortable over time. The Deseret News told me, you got it. You got to be. They didn't say, you got to be more careful. They said, be careful about that. They said, be careful about that.

John Dehlin [01:55:30] When they said that, you would feel or think what.

Rod Decker [01:55:32] Yeah, I would, I would feel censored. I mean, I felt like I was, and I, I was young and brash and thought, I can, I want to do journalism here. And, and I, I felt bad about it.

John Dehlin [01:55:49] So let me, let me ask you, Let me go ahead and finish that thought then. I want to go ahead. So I'm thinking, okay, by this time you've lived in Saigon.

Rod Decker [01:55:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] You've lived in Chicago, you've lived in Cambridge.

Rod Decker [01:56:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:04] You have New York. I was born and New York. And so you, you. It certainly could have occurred to you. Utah is a big, the sticks, it's back woods, it's like Hicksville. I can go to big cities anywhere in the world and do like big time journalism. Really make my mark. Why, why did you want to come

Rod Decker [01:56:25] to, you know, whether I could do that? Confidence. I, when I was, when I was after the Nieman I applied for at Harvard.

John Dehlin [01:56:35] After Harvard?

Rod Decker [01:56:36] Yeah, after the Nieman at Harvard I applied around thinking that might help me and I didn't get anything. But I did pursue it for as long or as hard as I might have. I'm sort of averse to change and I sort of don't mind sitting around and I was sort of happy and salt like. And I sort of thought maybe I should do something but I just never did. Is sort of what it was.

John Dehlin [01:57:00] More comfortable in a smaller pond than.

Rod Decker [01:57:02] Yeah, I don't know that I liked it was. I sort of thought of it as my place and, and, and my wife liked it here and we thought it was a good place to raise kids and so I stayed.

Transition from Print to Television News

John Dehlin [01:57:16] Okay, so you switched to KUTV News. Yeah, doing TV news instead of newspaper news.

Rod Decker [01:57:24] That's right. And TV news. In the end I liked it better. But it was a hard switch learning to do it. But I did. I was a reporter at KUTV news for 37 years and I, I had a lot of fun.

John Dehlin [01:57:43] How did you, how would you describe. Okay, let me, let me, let me just. I have to, forgive me listeners, I have to just say this. So growing up in Houston in the 70s and 80s, TV TV, you know, there were only three basically in effect, three channels.

Rod Decker [01:57:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] And you watched local news.

Rod Decker [01:58:01] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] Way more than people do now.

Rod Decker [01:58:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] I remember in Houston growing up there was this type of position at the news stations and in Houston it was this guy named Marvin Zindler. Marvin Zindler. He would do investigative journalism. He would do big stories, controversial stories, local stories. He was like this roving reporter. He wasn't an anchor, but he was this roving reporter that would do hard hitting news, funny news, interesting news. Yeah, he would, you know, he would find out that, that you know, the restaurants had slime in their icebox or he would, you know, whatever it was, it was, it was like a really important figure in the, in the Houston community and everybody knew who Marvin Zinder was.

Rod Decker [01:58:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:43] What do you call that position? And is that. Is that kind of what your position was?

Rod Decker [01:58:47] Well, that wasn't my position. I was. I was the political reporter. I was. I was sort of known. I was. I had. I had a show on Sunday nights right after the news called Take Two, where I'd have politicians on and interview them. And.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] So when did that start?

Rod Decker [01:59:12] John Prince started it. Then they fired him because they wanted one of their own guys. Then a bunch of people did it. Then while I was at the Deseret News, they had a program called Civic Dialogue, which the Deseret News sort of did on Channel seven. They wanted one of their people to do it. Nobody wanted to do it but me, so I got to do it for Desert News. Yeah. Yeah. I was the. I was the Deseret News reporter, but I did this once a week. I did a TV civic dialogue for an hour on Channel 7, interviewing people.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Not 5. Channel 7?

Rod Decker [01:59:47] Yeah, it was the Public Channel.

John Dehlin [01:59:49] Okay.

Rod Decker [01:59:50] Okay. So George Hatch saw me and liked my style, and so he hired me at Channel 2. And part of the deal, in fact, the main reason I was hired was to do this Take Two show. Then I would be. I would do Take Two. And reporting was sort of secondary, but reporting sort of took over. If you're gonna. If you're gonna hang on at Channel 2 as a reporter, you gotta. You gotta be a reporter and hustle and do stories. That's true of any. Any commercial TV station.

John Dehlin [02:00:26] So what year did you switch?

Rod Decker [02:00:29] 80.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] So in 1980. Yeah, you joined Channel 2 News?

Rod Decker [02:00:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:33] And you. And that's when you start Take Two.

Rod Decker [02:00:36] Yeah, that's what I. Yeah, I was on Take Two, and I was a reporter.

John Dehlin [02:00:40] And I just want to say, you know, I don't come to Utah until 87, but by 87, take two was a big deal. And you were a big deal, in my view, by 87.

Rod Decker [02:00:49] So, yeah, it was good for me. I was. I was good. I was. I was. I was paid probably more than I was worth, and I was. And I was known. And I. I got to do a lot of stuff that I wanted. I wasn't Marvin Ziegler. I did the capital, mostly political races, city government, county government. Now and then they'd pull me off because they had a murder or a wreck and they needed somebody to cover it. And I'd do that for a day or something. But most days I did politics. And I wake up in the morning and think, what am I going to do? And. And look at notes or look at the paper, think about things, make some phone calls. And then I'd phone in and say, how about this? Have a photog, meet me at the Capitol, or I can interview Hatch or whatever. And I'd get on noon and get on four and get on five and maybe six. I did, I did a lot of stories that was sort of what I did. And they like that. They like a lot of stories. And most of the stories I did I thought up and said, how about this? And I liked that. And so it was a fun time.

Biggest Stories in Utah Political Reporting

John Dehlin [02:02:22] So thinking chronologically, for the biggest stories that you might have covered, what are some of the, the biggest stories that you covered that, that were really impactful to you or to the state? You know, what, what were some of. Give us a sample of three to five and we could talk about each one. Three to five of the biggest stories.

Rod Decker [02:02:42] I did a story, I did a story about Orrin Hatch, Senator and Governor Norman Banger. I guess he was speaker of the House then maybe he was governor. They took a plane trip. Daniel's Construction that was bidding on a Utah project gave them a free plane ride. And I did a story about that and that was a lot of fun.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] I did a story alleging corruption or improper relationships.

Rod Decker [02:03:12] It was, it was just, it was, it wasn't corrupt. It was kind of, it was kind of questionable. I did not do the big multi day, multi year stories. I did a story every day and made it interesting. And what was going on now I was like a sports reporter is what I was like. I believe politics were lots of fun. I sort of had a proclivity for the local team and I, and I, I reported on them. What was the game today? What was the deal today? What happened? And I interviewed him, gave him a hard time. And I did a story about, which I thought was a good story, but it didn't do much oil. In the 70s, energy companies outside Utah bought coal mines in, in Carbon county. And they paid taxes, just local taxes at just very, very low rates. One of them paid local taxes at, for, on. On a coal mine at hundreds of thousands of dollars worth was the, was the value of the property. Then they sold it. In the 70s when energy prices went up, they sold the place for more than $100 million. They sold it for so much that, that the California Utilities Commission made them give a rebate that because they said the profits are obscene. Utah recovered. All Utah ever got were property taxes on a, I don't know, maybe 7 or $800,000 worth of property for 58 years while they held it. I mean maybe maybe 15, 20,000, maybe maybe $50,000 out of this profit of hundreds of a hundred million dollars. That was some money back then. Nobody paid much attention.

John Dehlin [02:05:19] So where'd that money go?

Rod Decker [02:05:20] It went to the, it went to the shareholders, to the owners of the California utility. Oh man, they made a pile at Utah. Got nothing Utah. And, and that was, that was one. But there were half a dozen that, that was the biggest. But there were half a dozen of similar. Of enormous profits made by out of state companies in Utah Energy and Utah's got nothing. Okay. I covered. I covered things that are in the book. I covered moral, moral conflicts at the legislature and I covered one after another and those went on for a long time.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] Like which ones?

Rod Decker [02:06:03] Abortion, pornography, birth control for teens supplied by government without telling their parents, censoring cable television. Liquor still went a little bit. I did liquor stories. I did budget stories. I would cover the governor and I was do all of the governors from, from Lee through, through Cox except for, except for Clyde. I never knew Clyde.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] For me this book that I want everyone to go buy signature books. Rod Decker, Utah Politics the Elephant in the Room. Just chapter three, in my view makes this whole book worth buying alone. And they're all great chapters. But, but, but yeah, you, you talk about the, the Mormon Church's teachings on public morality.

Rod Decker [02:07:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:07] And on the traditional family and word of wisdom and other sorts of things and how that influenced and dominated and permeated Utah legislation for over a century from statehood.

Rod Decker [02:07:23] And it's still, and it's still going on a little bit. It's, it's not going on so much.

John Dehlin [02:07:27] So give it, give us a flavor for how the church and the legislature have kind of interacted in Utah politics on moral issues just so they can kind of get an overview of generally

Rod Decker [02:07:39] speaking, Utahns are always doing a moral issue or at least from statehood still, I guess are still doing a more. Always doing one or more moral issues and always maybe not on every particular but on, on every broad issue the legislature comes down with the church. The first one was polygamy. There was leftover polygamy and, and non Mormons said you ought to get after Joseph F. Smith. But the, but the legislature and local authorities to some extent until, until the non Mormons won Salt Lake City. They won Salt Lake City. They prosecuted Joseph F. Smith. He. The Tribune made jokes about how he might flee to Mexico and he paid a $300 fine. The. It was more. It was. No one ever thought that Utah would, would Seriously go after polygamy. But it was more noise. And finally as the polygamist generation died out, the church became anti polygamous. It is now in my view the authorities Utah violates polygamists rights. I mean they seem to be to get a bad deal here. Maybe maybe less now that the law's been changed. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:09:14] The big one was liquor prohibition, right?

Rod Decker [02:09:17] Yeah. Well it started before prohibition. There was a big argument in the Constitutional Convention about whether the Utah Constitution should violate. Should ban liquor. But it didn't and the church was sort of neutral. The church. There's a paper on this by the guy at byu. His name will come to be. He's a historian, good historian noting how around the turn of the 20th century the church changed its views on the Word of Wisdom, particularly on liquor. Latter Day Saints became.

John Dehlin [02:10:01] How were they before

Rod Decker [02:10:04] there was the Word of Wisdom? And they looked down on. On too much drinking. But a little drinking might be okay now and then. And there were. There were people with temple recommends who might occasionally have a drink or drink wine. There's a story in the Utah Historical Quarterly about. For a while at a St. George ward they served. They served wine the sacrament and then come around and some, some guys would drink too much and get. There was sort of a local joke about that that things weren't as. As they became stronger after the church gave up polygamy partly partly to. To assimilate. They. The church became prohibitionist sort of along Evangelical Protestants had been. Had been prohibitionist, not the church. There were lots of saloons in. In Salt Lake City in Utah territory. Okay. Then the church became prohibitionist. There's an article by Jan Ships in the Utah Historical Quarterly about how Fred Kiesel owned. Was a non Mormon owned a brewery in Ogden. But he was good buddies with church leaders and he wrote them a letter and said if the church supports anti. If the church supports prohibition too strongly, then the American party that was the anti Mormon party, then the American party will break out all over. So the church was careful in its support of prohibition. Some church members were fierce. But Reed Smoot did not support prohibition. He was for temperance. When they'd asked me, said I don't think people should drink. But he wouldn't say there should be a law against drinking. And he okay, he ran a machine. They. They went through a number of legislatures where governors vetoed it. It was, it was a. It was the chief issue of. In 1915, in 1919 11. 15 finally before the United States, just before the. Just a while before the United States adopted Prohibition. Utah adopted Prohibition. No, they, they, they, they. They adopted it in 16 when Simon Bamberger was elected governor. And I think. And, and they, and it went into effect and the Deseret News said, this will be a greater benefit to people than anything since Jesus Christ had. There was this. There a huge party that I, that went into effect. People stayed up all night drinking and the streets were full of drunken bums. But then they had okay, I won't go through it. We can do it. I won't go through the whole story. It goes on and on and on. And it was, it was year after year after year. There were arguments about, about pro. About repealing Prohibition. I'll tell this story. When Prohibition was repealed, when Franklin D. Roosevelt came in, he said, repeal will help the economy in the Depression. And he. So he. The Congress passed an amendment repealing the Prohibition Amendment had to be ratified by three fourths of the states. Sort of jockeyed to be. I believe it was the 37th that was the ratifier. No, it wasn't that. It was, but, but whatever it was, the, the, the number that was the, that put it over the top. But then Utah, it was clear, would vote for repeal. There was a, There was a statewide election, a special election. The church fought as hard as it could against repeal but nonetheless lost the special election and Utah would go. So then the other states stepped right out of the way. They, they arranged it so Utah would be the state that put repeal over the top. The, the. The Times of London ran a headline, something I quote from memory. Boozes back. Whoopi Mormons. Mormons repeal Prohibition. So, so it was, it was drama and trouble all the way through.

John Dehlin [02:15:10] It was that members going against the church leaders.

Rod Decker [02:15:13] Some members did, yeah, yeah, yeah. Rural members, less so. But no one knew and no one said. But a lot of. They had to have a lot of Mormon votes to, to. To carry it statewide.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] It must have been concerning for the church to have members.

Rod Decker [02:15:35] Yeah, yeah. During the 1930s, the church, the church had a hard time leading. There was Prohibition. The church ran a front page editorial in 32. No, in 36 against re electing FDR. But Utah went for FDR by 70%. The president of the church endorsed Reed Smoot, an apostle in the church. He was a senator. He got voted out of office. Frank Jonas. They ran a bunch of Mormons. They ran Franklin S. Harris from byu. He was president down there. They asked him to run for the Senate. He did and lost. Don Colton from the Basin. They asked him to run for the Senate. He did and lost. Frank Jonas, who is a political science professor at the University of Utah, said in 1940, he said for the last decade, the church has not won a political battle in Utah. They lost everything. Wow. Everything different from the way it is now. And, and important, I think, very important to keep that in mind. It isn't, isn't the case that the brethren speak and the people respond that

John Dehlin [02:17:00] that hasn't always been, hasn't always been the case.

Rod Decker [02:17:04] And, and, and this is a, this is. Yeah, it isn't. And in the 30s was the low point.

John Dehlin [02:17:13] Okay.

Rod Decker [02:17:14] Okay, I can go on about booze, but, but I think that's enough for now. I mean, I, I've got, I wrote a chapter and I've got, I've got store. Lots of stories about booze.

John Dehlin [02:17:27] Yeah. And you even talk about the changes that they've made over the past 10 or 20 years.

Rod Decker [02:17:32] But I talk about other issues too. In the book, for sure.

The Church's Influence on Utah Moral and Political Issues

John Dehlin [02:17:35] So overall, what's been the pattern of the church's influence on moral issues? If you just had to kind of.

Rod Decker [02:17:41] Okay, here, here's, here's what's happened. The church has taken conservative stances. The first moral issue was polygamy. And on that issue, the church was on the outside. The church was for moral change against the Victorian pro family morality of the 19th century. The church lost on every other issue on, on liquor, on the Utah prohibited cigarettes. When they prohibited liquor, they went extra, an extra. The extra mile and prohibited cigarettes. Church was for cigarette prohibition. They were the, the force behind it. They were against horse racing, which Utah had legal horse racing. There is a picture that ran on the Deseret News of Heber J. Grant at the races a day at the race.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Really?

Rod Decker [02:18:29] Yes. Is that in your book? Huh?

John Dehlin [02:18:32] Is that in your book, that photo?

Rod Decker [02:18:33] But it's, it's in the Utah State Archives.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] Okay.

Rod Decker [02:18:37] I put it on channel two once. The, the. Okay. Liquor. Horse racing. Sunday. Sunday closing. The church was for Sunday closing.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] Closing stores on Sunday.

Rod Decker [02:18:51] Yeah, close. Must. Stores must. Must close on Sunday.

John Dehlin [02:18:58] Abortion.

Rod Decker [02:18:59] Well, but that was later.

John Dehlin [02:19:00] Okay.

Rod Decker [02:19:01] Okay. Yeah. Then the, the horse racing came back and there was a, a statewide petition on it. There, there was lotteries, there was. Then there was abortion. The, the big ones. The big ones were this. Abortion, pornography, censoring cable television, the Equal Rights Amendment and teenage birth control for teens without telling their parents and, and

John Dehlin [02:19:42] same sex marriage and sex education. You talk about that?

Rod Decker [02:19:45] Yeah, that, that, yeah, that, that, that was different. I can talk about that, but that's different. That isn't one of these. All of these went to the legislature and the church was strongly on the conservative side and the church won on every one of them. But on the equal. On everyone except for the Equal Rights Amendment. After Utahns had had three or four years of debate and argument and had reached a decision through the legislature or through a, a referendum, then it went to federal court and the federal court said no, no, no. The United States Constitution says you're wrong. That's why, that's why Mormons are Republicans now. They haven't always been Republicans, they're Republicans.

John Dehlin [02:20:31] Why?

Rod Decker [02:20:32] Because of the moral issues. Mormons. Okay, this is, this is from the book Utah. Neither Mormons nor Utah have always been Republican. Utah used to be politically ordinary. Hard to. Hard. You have to, you have to make an effort of the imagination to think of Utah's political ordinary. But. Statehood 1896, 1972, 20 presidential elections. Utah voted for the winner, that is with the majority 17 times. Only three states voted for the winner more often than Utah. Utah was, was.

John Dehlin [02:21:16] Meaning we'd go back and forth.

Rod Decker [02:21:18] Yeah, we. When the nation went Republican, we went Republican. Frank Jonas again, as the nation goes, so goes Utah.

John Dehlin [02:21:25] So kind of swing state. Almost, Almost like a swing state.

Rod Decker [02:21:27] Yeah, we were, we were, we were with the nation. We were in the mainstream and usual. Almost always if, when we, when we voted Republican for president, we voted Republican for governor in the legislature and for the Utah swan.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] That's kind of like Pennsylvania or Ohio now.

Rod Decker [02:21:50] Well, yeah, more so. I mean we were. Well, we weren't. Those are important states. We were never important.

John Dehlin [02:21:56] Right.

Rod Decker [02:21:56] Portland's big. We were always small. Yeah. So we were. No one ever said, oh my goodness, what's happening in Utah? But, but we were, we were. Sometimes we went this way, sometimes we went that way. That was for 80 years. And, and, and there were Mormons and non Mormons in both parties. Utah. There's a study that says that for much of that period, Utah had the strongest two party competition of any state. And in the, in the Depression, Utah was strongly Democratic. But, but the nation was strongly Democratic. And then Utah, Utah was Republican before. And then there was a period of what it sort of swung from election to election. And then Utah became strongly Republican. Utah became Republican in 1976 for the first time ever. Utah was the state that gave the highest percentage of its vote to any presidential candidate. That was to Gerald Ford. We'd voted for winners. We voted most strongly of any state for the loser. And since then there have been 12 elections in seven of them. We have been the most Republican state and until Donald Trump, when we weren't the most, we were the second or third.

John Dehlin [02:23:20] Only because of Evan McMullen, right?

Rod Decker [02:23:22] Well, no, this last time, Evan McMullen wasn't in. We were only 12th most Republican.

John Dehlin [02:23:30] So let me ask you. So I'm thinking about 76 and what I know, I know that Richard Nixon had, you know, Ford took over for Nixon because of Watergate. Jimmy Carter ends up getting elected in 76. What was the big issue or the sets of issues that sort of launched Utah into heavy Republicanism starting in 76,

Rod Decker [02:23:53] 1973, Roe v. Wade.

John Dehlin [02:23:55] Okay, tell us about that.

Rod Decker [02:23:57] Okay, Roe v. Wade. The Supreme Court strikes down abortion laws, including Utah's abortion law. Anti abortion law. Before.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] Before Roe v. Wade. Tell me if I'm right. Before Roe v. Wade, states could decide about abortion.

Rod Decker [02:24:16] Abortion was a state decision.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] Some could have, some could ban it, some could allow it. And Roe v. Wade.

Rod Decker [02:24:21] No one simply allowed it. Some, some. California, for example, you could, you could. They had changed in the last 10 years or so and they had big fights about it. But in California, the law was a. You could have an abortion to save a woman's health or to her life or. And but what that meant in practice is a woman who seriously wanted an abortion unless she was poor and maybe even if she was poor, she could find a doctor who'd say, yes, this is necessary for your health. Not too many women who really wanted an abortion and were serious in pursuit of it, at least my impression is most women who did were able to get one in California because they could get a doctor. And there were other states like that, Utah, that wasn't the case. It was hard to get an abortion in Utah. You had to, you had to show that you did. I mean, you people really had to believe that it killed the mom or caused her serious trouble or rape. Okay, that got struck down before. Before Roe v. Wade, abortion was not a partisan issue. In 72, the election before Roe v. Wade for governor, Cal Rampton ran against. Next strike, Cal Rampton, the Democrat, strongly against abortion. If the legislature liberalizes Utah's abortion law, I'll veto it. Nick. Strike. We need more liberal abortion laws. And it wasn't the Republicans. One way. Republicans were a little more pro choice than Democrats because Democrats had the Catholics. And interesting, that was true nationwide, but there wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't a big issue in a campaign. It had been mentioned a couple of times. Then comes Roe v. Wade. Rampton rushes upstairs to the legislature Rampton. Rampton was a smart guy. He could take a legal pad and write a bill. He could, he could just sit down and write out a bill, rush it up to the legislature. They'd pass it and become law. No governor since then. I mean, now they have staffers and they take some months. He could, he could walk to his desk and write a, Write a bill.

John Dehlin [02:27:01] Wow.

Rod Decker [02:27:02] Not on everything, but on, on some things, I think he staffed this one. He had lawyers look at it. They had a bill. The bill passes federal courts, strike it down. Then we have almost every legislature. Since then we've had abortion fights. Abortion goes way up in both Utah and the United States. But Utah has about one third the abortion rate of the United States. That's the highest it got. Okay. After abortion, then there were. Then they fought over pornography, then they fought over.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me just ask a follow up question on that. What was it about the abortion issue and Mormonism that made it become kind of the pivot point?

Abortion Politics and Religious Realignment

Rod Decker [02:27:54] Okay. It wasn't just Mormons. There are political science studies on this. And it realigned American politics. Before Roe v. Wade, evangelicals weren't political. They, some of most of them were Democrats because a lot of them were Southern, but they were. Politics was different from religion after Roe v. Wade. Conservative religions, evangelicals, Pentecostals, Mormons, all. All that affects their political stance. Now. It took a year or two to decide which party was going to go which way. They had to kind of choose up sides in Congress. It might have been the Republicans would have ended up pro choice, but the Democrats ended up. They chose pro choice. The Republicans ended up pro life. So the evangelicals and the. And the more on the Latter Day Saints became strong Republicans. They became part of the core of the Republican Party and have been ever since.

John Dehlin [02:29:03] And just connect those dots for us. What is it about Christian religions in the United States that would make them feel so passionate about.

Rod Decker [02:29:12] Okay, not all Christian religions. Catholics. Catholics had been strongly anti abortion, but they aren't particular. The hierarchy is. But Catholics vote. Vote for a lot of pro choice candidates. Catholics aren't. Aren't. My wife was a Catholic. She voted mostly Democratic even though she was a devout Catholic.

John Dehlin [02:29:33] Interesting.

Rod Decker [02:29:34] And that's not. Catholics vote Democratic about as much as they vote Republican. And they vote a lot. And a lot of the Democrats they vote for are pro choice. But that changed in the Catholic Church. Episcopalians, Presbyterians, the mainline Protestants, especially, especially Jews, they tend to.

John Dehlin [02:30:01] Abortion is not a huge.

Rod Decker [02:30:03] Abortion's not a huge issue. And it Isn't, and I would guess it isn't much of a, of a religious issue with them. They, they. Hardly any of them will say I vote because of pro choice or, or pro life and it's my religion.

John Dehlin [02:30:22] So refining my question a bit. What was it about Mormonism and evangelical Christianity that made that, that made abortion a defining political issue? Any idea?

Rod Decker [02:30:35] Well, okay, Latter Day Saints believe, they believe that there's the little fetus in there, but there's a spirit up in heaven and the little fetus, the spirits waiting to get into the fetus and go be a person. And they believe that it's just not right to

John Dehlin [02:31:00] leave those spirits.

Rod Decker [02:31:02] They aren't immoderate. They, they, they'll, they'll do an abortion for health or fetal, fetal injury or, or rape or incest or, or health of the mother, so forth. I mean they aren't, they aren't moderate about it, but they feel strongly.

John Dehlin [02:31:22] It kind of feels like the Saturday's warrior doctrine that basically this. Who are these children coming down? You know, Jimmy, Jimmy, don't forget about me. You know, just this idea of the pre existence and spirits because you're tying potential living discreet human beings with these fetuses. It sounds like that theology or doctrine makes the abortion issue of higher stakes or of heavy importance.

Rod Decker [02:31:52] Okay. But I think they just feel strongly about it. I mean I think they think it's wrong, I guess is a fetus human life. That still seems to me to be a serious question. And if it is, maybe it's wrong to, to kill it, at least to kill it with. Without a good reason. But abortions here to stay. But the, and it's important, it's important to women to be able to run their own lives. But the church felt strongly and the members felt strongly. I told you about when they couldn't win in the 30s then they fought the New Deal and Utah was especially poor and a lot of Mormons who had trouble feeding their kids, literally trouble feeding their kids, they said bring on that federal money. And when the hierarchy said we don't want the New Deal, they said no, no, no, I'm voting, I'm voting for Franklin D. Roosevelt. That wasn't true in the abortion. Not only the hierarchy felt strongly Latter Day Saints generally there are, there are some who feel more strongly than others and some maybe who don't care. But by and large Latter Day Saints cared about it and they've. Now Utah has never voted for a Democrat for president or for United States Senator since.

John Dehlin [02:33:36] Or go or maybe governor. I Mean, I guess there was no,

Rod Decker [02:33:39] there was, there was Matheson. Matheson. Matheson got it. Rampton was the governor. He got reelected. And then there was Matheson. But on the federal level, part of this, part of the reason, it wasn't just abortion. There was abortion, there was pornography, same thing. Big fight. Utah decides. Federal courts throw it out. Censoring cable television, same thing. Birth control for teenagers without telling their parents, same thing. Same sex marriage, same thing. The one that, the one the church won was the Equal Rights Amendment. And that was because it never, it never went to court federally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and they can win. Local stuff, but the history of Utah from the 70s is this series of hard moral fights of Latter Day Saints voting, deciding, just like it says in the civics books. Then the court throws it out. And so they feel, they feel that they've lost on issues that are important to them and they feel disfranchised. They feel that the federal government is telling them how to run their, how to, how to run things locally. And often there it's thrown out on new interpretations. It's true. Up to now the Constitution has said states decide abortions, but from now on, the language doesn't change, but the, but the interpretation changes. And that's a major factor in making and turning Latter Day Saints into Republicans.

John Dehlin [02:35:23] So I. One of my favorite Mormon stories, interviews of the past few years is this historian named Matthew Harris. I don't know if you've heard of Matthew Harris, but he's done a couple books on Ezra Taf Benson and he's done many hours of interviews with me and kind of the case he made and the understanding that I had is if we wanted to blame anything or anyone for Utah Mormon Republicanism, it would be sort of the John Birch Society and Ezra Chad Benson of the 60s. That then sort of moves you Utah and Utah Mormons in that direction. But, but what you're doing is you're, you're supplementing that understanding.

Rod Decker [02:36:02] Oh, no, no, no, I'm not supplementing. I don't believe that. Ezra Taft Benson.

John Dehlin [02:36:06] You think that's wrong?

Rod Decker [02:36:06] I think that's. Yeah, I think that's. Now it's true. So Ezra Taft Benson, he was an apostle. He was, he supported Joe McCarthy. He was secretary of Agriculture. He spoke from the pulpit. I've seen video of him speaking from the pulpit and telling people how to vote. Now in the First District, you're going to want to vote for. And he named the Republic, he named the Republican. That's all true, but, and, and the church moved right during that time. But the, the church, the church Utah went for for Lyndon Baines Johnson in, in, in 64. Utah didn't. Utah the nation except Nixon Kennedy and that one Kennedy Nixon almost won the popular vote nationwide and Utah was for Nixon, Nixon, Kennedy, which is a hard one. That's 60, that's 60. 64 for Lyndon Bain Johnson and, and they, and but then it was Nixon both nationally and in Utah. But Utah never went against the, the, the nation until 76, which was Ford. Which is Ford after Roe v. Wade. Ah, okay. Now until. And, and then after Roe v. Wade it went Republican forever. So before, while, while Benson was, was, was talking, Utah was still a swing state. It was, it was conservative, but the, they had conservative Democrats. But it had Democrats. And if you, if you, if you go down and talk to say latter day saint, 25 year olds, a lot of them won't know who Ezra Taft Benson is or barely. They don't know. They don't know what he said. But they know about gay marriage. Yeah, they know. They, they know about abortion. Right. They know that. They know about all those things and they know that they think it's wrong and that the federal government imposes. It imposes it on them, on their community. They know about pornography.

John Dehlin [02:38:33] Yeah.

Rod Decker [02:38:33] All of those things.

John Dehlin [02:38:35] Sexual issues. Sexual morality, basically.

Rod Decker [02:38:37] Yeah, yeah. And they know. And they hardly know who, who Ezra Taft Benson is. They don't. And they, and they couldn't tell you. Was he at the John Birch Society? Only old guys know that.

John Dehlin [02:38:52] What are you trying to say, Rod Decker?

Rod Decker [02:38:55] And I told you I was. I'll be 80 in July.

John Dehlin [02:38:58] I'll be. I know who.

Rod Decker [02:38:59] Yeah, okay, but, and, and, and there is, it's a very respectable school, Matthew Harris and there's a guy at the U whose name I've forgotten and a bunch of people say Ezra Taft Benson was crucial. I think it's a, I think, I think it's partly this that they don't want to take seriously the current Latter Day Saint view on morality. I think if you say it was, it was Benson and, and, and it makes it seem kind of silly. Is there. It isn't a good reason to vote for Donald Trump now because Ezra Taft Benson was a Republican in 1960. That isn't a good reason.

John Dehlin [02:39:45] Right.

Rod Decker [02:39:46] And they believe Mormons don't have good reasons to be Republicans. I think Mormons do have good reasons to be Republicans. I don't, don't necessarily agree with them on all their reasons, but I think they have good sound. Well Thought out reasons and I can tell you what they are sometime.

John Dehlin [02:40:03] Yeah, no, it's basically a public policy around matters of sexuality.

Rod Decker [02:40:07] That's right, right. That's right.

John Dehlin [02:40:09] Yeah.

Rod Decker [02:40:10] Now the Mormons don't call it, the Mormons say, say family.

John Dehlin [02:40:13] Right, Family.

Rod Decker [02:40:15] Well, that's a big deal.

John Dehlin [02:40:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rod Decker [02:40:17] Okay. And they, and they, and issues around family.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Yeah.

Rod Decker [02:40:22] Are the, are the, are the, the, the issues that make Mormons Republicans.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] Yeah. And I'm going to say if there's another chapter that in and of itself merits buying this amazing book, Rod Decker, Utah Politics, the Outfit in the Room. It is chapter four called Demography, Families and Children.

Rod Decker [02:40:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:43] And, and it's a, it's a really important chapter to understanding both Utah, Utah politics and Mormonism. It's, it's important for all, all those domains, I think, I think so too. Yeah, it's a great, great chapter. Great chapter. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So abortion and matters of sexuality. And, and that's just a really fun part of your book because as you said, you talk about, you know, you talk about era, but you also talk about abortion, cable tv, sex education, contraception, same sex marriage, same sex adoption. You talk about all that stuff and you do it in these little, you know, two to three page kind of summaries, but they're really concise, they really hit at the heart of the matter. It's very well researched and there's really great analysis of what's going on behind the scenes and kind of what it all means. Great, great writing.

Rod Decker [02:41:41] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] You've, you've redeemed yourself, Rod Decker.

Rod Decker [02:41:44] Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] You have some redemption.

Rod Decker [02:41:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:41:49] Yeah. Okay, so that was kind of a, you know, so we're so as we kind of go back to you going to KUTV and doing take two and you just becoming a journalistic force in Utah from the 80s to the 90s. You retired what year?

Covering Mormonism as a News Reporter

Rod Decker [02:42:10] 2017.

John Dehlin [02:42:12] Yeah. So from, from 1980 to 2017. That's 37ish years.

Rod Decker [02:42:18] Yes, that is.

John Dehlin [02:42:19] Yeah. So what was it? So, so one of the questions I had was here you are a non believing, like an ex Mormon, I'll just say ex Mormon, a post Mormon. You're in a state dominated by Mormon power, politically and culturally and socially. And you're, you're like one of the most prominent news people stirring it up day after day after day in the convergence of Mormonism, sex, power, money and politics. And you did that like I would have assumed the church would want to get rid of you or that people would have hated you. Or that you would have been. So how did you do that? How did you do that?

Rod Decker [02:43:04] Okay, first off, I'm. I'm among Utah journalists. I'm pretty conservative.

John Dehlin [02:43:09] Meaning what? Meaning what?

Rod Decker [02:43:11] Well, okay, I'll tell you. I used to make a joke. We used to Sometimes at Channel 2, we'd hire a pollster and we'd do. We do a public opinion poll. And I said, we don't have to do that. You could just poll the newsroom. And you know that's wrong. You know, that's, you know, you could say, who do you want for governor? And whoever the reporters in the newsroom wanted, you'd know that that was the one that the Utahns didn't want. And the news business in general, there are polls that show news people are overwhelmingly Democratic and progressive, and I am less so. And academics, too, are overwhelmingly Democratic and progressive. And I tried to be fair. And I kind of like the Mormons. I like them. I think they're fine. I think they're kind of. They do the best they can. They try to live good lives. They get, they get bad things said about them. It seems to be unfairly more than. More than most other people. It seems to be that they're, they're unpopular and, and nationally and, and in Utah, people feel free to say really bad, really mean things about them. And it seems to me that, that a lot of that's undeserved, that they, they get along, they're good neighbors, they run a good community. Good for them. So I got along with them. I got along with them just fine, though, though. I was critical on every one of these issues about the equal rights. I was critical of the church position.

John Dehlin [02:45:00] Why?

Rod Decker [02:45:01] Well, I was critical of both positions, but I was, I was okay. The church wanted to censor pornography. I still sort of. I think I understand why they want to censor pornography, but I think that an adult who wants to watch pornography should be able to do it if that's what he wants to do. I don't think the law ought to be against it. I think the liquor laws are okay now. But when I started drinking, back when I was 18, there were state owned liquor stores, as there are now, but they were what they were like back then was one of those place, one of these places have you ever been in where you go, they say, we cash your check and you go in and there's a bare room and then at the end there's a teller behind thick glass. Okay. That was what the liquor stores were like.

John Dehlin [02:45:57] Like pity lending Kind of.

Rod Decker [02:45:58] You went in and there was a, There was a, A menu of what they had on the wall or a sign, and each of them had a number. And you filled out a form. They had. I remember the state owned the state liquor store. They had wine. One red, one white, one rose. And you filled out the form and you put in the number that you wanted. You went to this teller like thing. You gave them the. You gave them the form you filled out of the money. And they. And the guy went to the back, to the warehouse in the back and fetched. Fetched your bottle. It was. You couldn't drink in a restaurant. You couldn't. You could drink at a private club, but you had to bring your own bottle.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] Some club fee, right?

Rod Decker [02:46:48] No, no, that was later.

John Dehlin [02:46:49] Okay.

Rod Decker [02:46:50] That was, that was a big step forward. The first one, you had to belong to a private club and you could only be a member. And each member had to have a law locker. And the member could bring his bottle, put it in his locker, unlock it. Then when he came, he could unlock. He could unlock his locker and take out the bottle. I mean, the club that you paid for was, was a huge liberalization.

John Dehlin [02:47:16] Which still sounds weird though, right?

Rod Decker [02:47:19] It stayed weird for a long time, but now they seem to me to be fine. I, I can drink a lot.

John Dehlin [02:47:24] Beer's a little weak though, right? I hear.

Rod Decker [02:47:26] No, no, no, no, no, no. They. They pass the thing that you don't have to have. They had 3.2 beer was all you could buy in grocery stores or in beer bars from Prohibition until two years ago, I think, or three years ago.

John Dehlin [02:47:42] Oh, they fixed that.

Rod Decker [02:47:43] Yeah. Now you go to grocery store, you get 4%, 5%, 6% beer. And I was kind of against that. I liked 3.2 beer. I didn't like it so much when I was a kid, but I liked it when I got older because you can drink more beer, less drugs, drunk. And that, that's. That's good for me when I'm old. Like I have. But that now you can buy beer in the grocery store. California, of course, you can buy wine in the grocery store. I don't think you can buy liquor in California.

John Dehlin [02:48:15] I don't think so.

Rod Decker [02:48:17] Wine for sure.

John Dehlin [02:48:18] Trader Joe's has struggled with Utah.

Rod Decker [02:48:21] Most states are freer than Utah. But anyhow, the, but the, the liquor laws seem. Seem better to me than they used to.

John Dehlin [02:48:34] So back to this question of, like, I would have thought you would have had more of an adversarial relationship.

Rod Decker [02:48:41] No.

John Dehlin [02:48:41] Well, we get along, but you get along. And it sounds like you get along because you've tried to be fair.

Rod Decker [02:48:46] Try to be fair.

John Dehlin [02:48:47] And because you generally like Mormons.

Rod Decker [02:48:49] I like them and I, and I try to say, to say their, to state clearly their point of view. Give them a chance. I sometimes I, I was, I was critical of their, their. They had a, the Mormon Church back to constitutional amendment against same sex marriage, which, which also banned civil unions. And I think it was, I think it was a strategic error. I think if they hadn't done that, if they'd have allowed some kind of civil union, they wouldn't have. Utah was the state that went to court and got beat that that wouldn't have happened if they'd have had a civil union.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] Is that the Robert Shelby decision?

Rod Decker [02:49:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:37] And your book talks about that. It's another great part of the book.

Rod Decker [02:49:40] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that might well not have happened if there had been some sort of civil union where. And marriage at least to some extent could have, could have been preserved from a Mormon standpoint.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] Yeah. So I'm, I am surprised to hear that you did during those 37 years. You didn't consider yourself to have an adversarial relationship with the church and that they didn't view you as an enemy.

Rod Decker [02:50:13] I don't know. I don't know their.

John Dehlin [02:50:16] How they view you.

Rod Decker [02:50:17] Yeah, I don't know how they viewed me. When I saw President Hinckley, he always said, hi, Rod Dallin Oaks says hi. They're always very friendly. I have no, I have no ax to grind with them. And they've always been nice to me. And when I show up, they do. They, they treat me like any other reporter. And I don't think, I don't. Bob Bennett wrote a book and I guess it was Deseret Book. He said, well, why don't we get. They were trying to get it on TV and he said, could we get it on Rod Decker's? And they said, well, he isn't a friend of ours. That was Deseret book. I didn't know that. And so maybe they thought worse of me than I thought they thought of me. I don't know. But they were all, they, they were always nice and I tried to be fair. I got along well with Gail Ruzika, who is the, the, the head of the Eagle Forum in Utah and is the, the. She's a, A Latter Day Saint lady, but isn't tied to the church. But she's. She. Through all of this. She's been around decades. Through all of this. She was the chief voice for moral conservatism at the legislature.

John Dehlin [02:51:44] Yeah, it's kind of the Phyllis Schlafly of Utah.

Rod Decker [02:51:49] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] So what are you, what's your analysis or reaction to or feelings about? I'm gonna ask you a couple things. One is the Mormon churches, the LDS Church's overarching dominance and control of Utah politics for so long. Like some, in kind of almost a sneering way, call Utah theocracy. And some feel like it is either, you know, historically violent or unfair or inappropriate that the Mormon Church has such a lock on and a control of Utah politics. Politics. What are your reactions or thoughts or reflections?

Rod Decker [02:52:32] Okay, that, that doesn't, that doesn't bother me much. First off, it seems to be you have to distinguish between the church as the hierarchy and an institution and Latter Day Saints. Now, it seems to me that the way things ought to be is we have elections. People vote, and the majority rules. In Utah, Latter Day Saints are maybe 60% of the population, and they come out and vote. They turn out better than non Mormons, maybe 10% better. So maybe 70% of the electorate is Latter Day Saints. And it seems to be the way it's supposed to be is they had everybody else come out and the, and the, and the, the guy who gets the most votes wins. They happen to be strongly Republican. Now, the, the church hierarchy doesn't tell them to be Republican. The church, Church leaders don't say be Republicans. I've never heard any. The last time a church leader said something was David O. McKay with Richard Nixon in 1960. He said, we hope you win. That's the last time. I think that you can point to a, to a church president. Now people say church, local church leaders, bishops may say some, something maybe some of them do. They aren't supposed to. And I know for a fact some of them have gotten in trouble. I mean by in trouble, I mean the stake president or somebody said don't be careful so that it. So that people don't misunderstand and think that the church. So the church doesn't, doesn't talk in politics. And they've talked a lot less as a church over my lifetime. It's gone down how much they, how much they talk.

John Dehlin [02:54:50] But, but you would admit there's a difference between what public statements they make and the way that they might wield power behind the scenes. Because from the people that I know, there's some operatives at the church that will literally go to Capitol Hill or whatever it's called and tell people this is where the church's position, this is how you line up. And then everybody lines up.

Rod Decker [02:55:13] That used to happen. They used to, Used to. They now have, they now have professional lobbyists. They have an office of guys whose job it is, among other things, to go up and hustle. Legislators. The legislators call them the home teachers. Okay, they, they, they don't by any means win all the time. They win some of the time. Legislators, even the ones who are really good Latter Day Saints, don't want the church telling them what to do.

John Dehlin [02:55:48] Really?

Rod Decker [02:55:48] No.

John Dehlin [02:55:49] I mean, even the believing ones.

Rod Decker [02:55:51] Yeah, they don't know. They don't want the church telling them what to do. Now they think it's perfectly okay if the church comes up and says, look, we think this is a family issue and we feel strongly on this. Okay, that's good. But they, they don't see themselves as the church says, okay, line up and they do that. That isn't the way it works. And even the, even the believing ones don't want too much church over their shoulder. It used to be the case that apostles would call legislators. They'd have the legislators, bishop or stake president talk to him.

John Dehlin [02:56:27] How long ago?

Rod Decker [02:56:29] Well, okay, they did that on cigarette prohibition and that was in about 1920. They probably, I don't think they did it. I'm almost certain they didn't on the Equal Rights Amendment. So in the 70s, what they did on the Equal Rights Amendment was they ran an editorial in the Church News, the LDS Church News, and that flipped Latter Day Saints up there. Byron Fisher, a representative, he said he had signed on as a sponsor of ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment. He took his name off. He said, it's my church and as a bishop, I'm not going to vote against his wishes and changed. Okay, so they flipped him. But it wasn't a behind the scenes arm twist. And the church, the church's official position, as I understand it, is they don't mess in politics. They get to define politics. If they mess, it isn't politics. But they don't mess in politics except moral issues where they believe they have an obligation, that they believe that a community does better. If gambling, suppressed liquors, controlled pornography, suppressed birth control isn't available to 15 year olds, okay, Unless their parents consent, maybe not even that. They believe that's a better community. And maybe, I mean, they have a case. There's a, there's an argument, there are arguments and evidence that maybe. It depends on what you like, but I go into some of them in the book about Utah has less Poverty, and it's probably related to that. Utah has a lot less child poverty and it's almost surely related to that. Okay, child poverty is a bad thing. You get less child poverty. There's something to be said for measures that'll bring you that.

John Dehlin [02:58:45] And I really enjoyed that part of your book. You talk about divorce rates, you talk about, you know, pregnancy rates, teen pregnancy rates, pregnancy rates. And I got the sense that you're basically saying you also talk about the safe, you know, levels of safety in Utah, longevity, crime. And I get the sense that violent climate, violent crime. And I, I get the sense that what you are saying is that there are a lot of good things about living in Utah and the Mormon Church's involvement or influence in politics that's related to moral issues is an important stabilizing factor in the quality of life in Utah. Did I get that right?

Rod Decker [02:59:29] I believe that not, not just in politics, but their influence in the community. In politics, in the community. Now, a lot of people even, even that they would say this even if a pro family means fewer unwed moms and therefore fewer poor children. Even if it means that I'd rather live in New York where you have more freedom and a better. And I'd certainly rather not live in Utah. If the Mormons ran things. Because if the Mormons ran things, abortion would not be legal. Almost certainly same sex marriage. I don't know whether they delegalize it, but they would, they would stop abortion. I don't know whether they delegalized, but they never would have allowed it.

John Dehlin [03:00:22] Yeah. And so on LGBT adoptions. They will probably.

Rod Decker [03:00:26] No, they wouldn't. Yeah, they did that. They passed laws against drugs.

John Dehlin [03:00:29] There'd be no legal. Legalized, recreational or even potentially.

Rod Decker [03:00:33] They may. I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. Well, there's no legalized marijuana now, but except for medical. And they probably.

John Dehlin [03:00:43] Maybe they were against that. They tried.

Rod Decker [03:00:46] Yeah, yeah. But sort of now before there was that referendum, there was a, an oil. That cannonball, something. Yeah, yeah, okay. And they, and the legislature allowed that even before the referendum. They were persuaded that it helped or that it might help epileptic kids. And so they may have, they may have done medical marijuana for some things under some conditions because I think they.

John Dehlin [03:01:19] Sure.

Rod Decker [03:01:20] If you can persuade them, if you can persuade them that it really helps you if you're sick, I think that's okay.

John Dehlin [03:01:25] And if the church doesn't oppose it, it.

Rod Decker [03:01:27] Well, I don't know. I don't think I, I don't know what the church. I Don't know what the church said about. Did, did the church make a statement on that? On that?

John Dehlin [03:01:35] I believe so, yeah.

Rod Decker [03:01:36] I didn't think they did.

John Dehlin [03:01:37] On medical marijuana?

Rod Decker [03:01:37] Yeah. Okay. I could be wrong on, on that. On the referendum?

John Dehlin [03:01:43] Yeah. I'm pretty sure they were against it.

Rod Decker [03:01:45] Maybe so. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:01:48] Listeners can correct me if I'm wrong.

Rod Decker [03:01:49] I'll look. But I think. If they could be persuaded that the legislature's about like the church on these matters. They think about like the church and if they could be persuaded that it's genuinely medical and exclusively medical. Utah has medical marijuana, but almost always in those cases there's a little bit of leakage. Somebody said, knock my back. Almost always there's a not so much here. I think it's a lot more expensive medically than it is than it is on the street.

John Dehlin [03:02:37] Hard to get. It's hard to get here too.

Rod Decker [03:02:39] Yeah. Okay. In any case, I, I, I, they, a lot of people would prefer to live in a, in a much more open place, even with its social problems, than in a community governed by the church.

John Dehlin [03:02:57] But you.

Rod Decker [03:03:00] I would probably prefer to live in an more open place than a community governed. But, but what we got's fine.

John Dehlin [03:03:06] Yeah.

Rod Decker [03:03:07] I think, I think the church, I think we wouldn't have such liberal liquor laws except that the church figured out that liquor isn't really so important. I mean, when liquor was important, they paid attention, but now they don't. They can't worry about liquor. They've got to worry about abortion, same sex marriage, birth control for teens. More important stuff.

John Dehlin [03:03:34] So the perception amongst, let's just say liberals or ex Mormons is that in Utah the legislature and the church are pretty much always aligned at this point. And if there were ever a case where the legislature started moving in a direction that the church didn't like, the church would correct it and the legislature would get in line.

Rod Decker [03:03:52] No.

John Dehlin [03:03:53] You disagree?

Rod Decker [03:03:54] Oh, absolutely. Okay. Okay. Recently the church, the church had trouble with, with ex Mormons who phoned up their bishops and, and, and recorded the call.

John Dehlin [03:04:09] I was part of that.

Rod Decker [03:04:09] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:04:10] Or, or they would be in a one on one interview with the bishop.

Rod Decker [03:04:14] They go and wearing.

John Dehlin [03:04:15] And they would, or on their iPhone they would record or whatever conversations. Yeah. Because it has a one party state where if one person knows that a recording's happening, that's legal.

Rod Decker [03:04:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:04:25] Right.

Rod Decker [03:04:25] Okay. So the church asked for a change of the law so that you couldn't do that. But they went up to the legislature, the legislature refused to pass it. People said, we don't want that the legislature wouldn't pass it in. In the 90s into the past, the turn of the century, there was a big fight over guns in churches. The fight was over guns, the legislature's pro gun and they said you can carry a concealed weapon wherever you go. And churches. It was led by non Latter Day Saint churches. But the church has said we'd like to be able to keep guns out of church. And the Latter Day Saint church said we want to keep guns out of church. And they said that publicly. The legislature would not. No, no, no. Guy, a guy might have, a guy might have an enemy, the enemy might come after him in church. No one knows when he might have to pull out his gun. And we're not, we're not saying you can't carry your gun into church. Then there was a series of compromises. A church could post a sign on its door, guns aren't allowed. The Latter Day Saints didn't do that. Finally the church went to the gun people, to the gun lobby and said, hey look, let us put a, put an ad on the Internet and in various places notifying that you can't have guns in church. The gun lobby said okay. And then the legislature went along. But there are a number of examples like that on moral issues, things they care about. Most legislators think the way they do on other issues. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose.

John Dehlin [03:06:20] Okay. Okay. And overall you don't see the Mormon church's influence in politics as a necessarily bad thing for quality of life in Utah. You see it as maybe a net positive.

Rod Decker [03:06:33] Depends on what you like. But if you, if you're concerned about child poverty, it seems to be it has a clearly beneficial impact. If you're concerned about crime, violent crime, crime, violent crime. Now child poverty, you can show it. Violent crime, you can't. Utah has a lot of Mormons on a low violent crime rate. I don't know. I think maybe the one maybe that's connected, but I can't show it is with child poverty. I try in my book and I think it's plain that, that the church is for the traditional family. Utah has about half the rate of out of wedlock births. Children with single moms are five times more likely to be poor than children of a two parent family. Utah leads in two parent families, families a big deal with the church.

John Dehlin [03:07:31] Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Utah Media Landscape and the Future of Local News

Rod Decker [03:07:36] So

John Dehlin [03:07:38] let me just ask you really quickly. I'm curious about a couple things. Obviously the salt, you know, all print journalism is kind of taken in the shorts these days.

Rod Decker [03:07:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:48] But the Salt Lake Tribune seems to Be kind of like on a potentially. Oh, well, really struggling. It's, you know, potentially on its last leg. A lot of big cities across the country have moved from two, two newspaper towns to one newspaper town.

Rod Decker [03:08:03] Very few. Two newspaper towns.

John Dehlin [03:08:05] And I'm guessing that television, local television news has changed from when you were doing it today. How do you want to talk about the state of the news media, print and TV in Utah today versus in decades past?

Rod Decker [03:08:22] Well, in my lifetime the Tribune had a circulation of 200,000. Now it's 30,000 and it doesn't. 30 something. I think maybe more than that on Sundays, but. And it, it doesn't have a paper six days a week. It has only a Sunday paper. And it, I don't. They did that because they, they were going broke. They were. John Huntsman, excuse me, Paul Huntsman ran them and Paul Huntsman was putting in three or four million dollars a year and he didn't want to do that forever. And if he hadn't, if he hadn't taken it over and done it, they'd have probably just died. But they're, they've worked out as a 5 a non profit now and they're going to be, they are asking for donations and, and maybe they'll survive. It's not. They're one of the first nonprofit newspapers in the country of a major, a major daily. Maybe they'll survive, but they've got trouble. The Deseret News also is not printing except on Sunday. But the Deseret News, I think it may not be losing as much money, though its circulation is smaller. It may not be losing as much money.

John Dehlin [03:09:51] Smaller than it used to be. Not smaller than the Trib.

Rod Decker [03:09:54] Smaller than the Trib. It's circulation, not the church news. You can't trust circulation figures. You used to be able to trust them. You can't anymore. But my understanding is daily, the tribs in the 30s and the deseret News is below that. That on.

John Dehlin [03:10:16] Really?

Rod Decker [03:10:16] Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that maybe wrong. But it's. The circulation is way down and so ad revenues are down and so both of them are. Have financial difficulties. I think the Trib's financial difficulties are first, much bigger than the News. And second, the News has a deep pocket behind it in the church. The church. The News lost money all through the 20s and 30s, into the 40s, probably up until, in fact it did up until the joa, as it's known.

John Dehlin [03:10:52] Joint Operating agreement.

Rod Decker [03:10:54] Yeah, yeah. Which they signed in 56, something like that. And after that they both made money until well into the 21st century when all newspapers crashed. But before that the church carried a money losing Deseret News and may do so in the future. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:11:16] Is it, is it sad for you to see the two main newspapers in Utah Kind of, yeah. On the ropes.

Rod Decker [03:11:24] Yeah. Yeah, I feel bad about that. I used, I subscribed to them both and, and used to enjoy getting them and reading them. It was a lot of paper. But. Yeah, I'm sorry that that's happened. TV news has also a trajectory that's similar, but at a much higher level. TV news still makes a lot of money here and other places make a lot of money. But really? Yeah. Yeah. Tv. TV news makes my. TV stations make a lot of tv.

John Dehlin [03:12:08] Why is, why have TV news stations done so well but newspapers are dying, people watch tv.

Rod Decker [03:12:14] I think you explained to me how people listen to podcasts but they don't read. People watch TV and don't read. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:23] Yeah, okay.

Rod Decker [03:12:24] And, and TV's free, or at least TV news is free. And so they make money, a lot of money. But it isn't like it used to be. When I started, it was said a local TV license is a license to print money. They had money coming out their ears.

John Dehlin [03:12:48] Really?

Rod Decker [03:12:48] Yeah. Well, you, you said it too. There were three stations. You turn on the TV at six, you have two, three choices. Now you've got six or seven stations you've got there, or eight you've got. And then you've got cable. Yeah. And then you've got cable and, and, and all sorts of stuff you've got. Your effective choices are hundreds.

John Dehlin [03:13:12] And so the Facebook and Twitter and YouTube. That's right, Instagram.

Rod Decker [03:13:17] So you're your, your, your audience is divided and it's harder for, for TV news. So they, they have, they're better than they used to be. I mean. Excuse me. They're better than them. Not that they used to be. They're better than newspapers, but not. So it's not so good for them as it used to be.

John Dehlin [03:13:38] Okay, so the actual news programming that used local news programming, you see, is there anyone like you, do you have a successor? Is there still a take? Was it take five? Is it?

Rod Decker [03:13:49] No, there isn't a take two.

John Dehlin [03:13:51] That's sad. Why aren't those things still going well?

Rod Decker [03:13:54] Because it was the last show of its kind of the country, I think of a, of a.

John Dehlin [03:13:58] How did it end?

Rod Decker [03:14:00] They just said we're stopping.

John Dehlin [03:14:02] While you were doing it.

Rod Decker [03:14:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:03] What year was that?

Rod Decker [03:14:04] I don't remember. They, they it petered out. What they said was, well, we're going to change it. It. We're going to put a sports. After the news is a good time. We can make money there. You're not making enough money. We'll put a sports show there and you can be a half hour later. Well, then you can be an hour later. Well, then what we'll do is we'll only run you now and then when we've got important things. Well, we'll run you. We'll. We'll run you after football games where we've got 20 minutes maybe, depending on how long the game goes, and you can fill the 20 minutes. But if the game goes, then you don't get a show. That was hard because you'd get a guest to come from Provo or somewhere and then there wouldn't be a show. So it, I mean, it sort of took a while. But, but, but the point is, I think I was the last one on Sunday night after the news in the country of a. Of a political talk show. And that doesn't make money like a sports show or a rerun of MASH or whatever. Nobody does it now. TV stations make money, but they have to hustle. They have to work to make money. It isn't just like the money flows in.

John Dehlin [03:15:28] Was that sad for you to see Take two go away and to see.

Rod Decker [03:15:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt bad about it, but I, I understand. I felt. I thought maybe if I'd hustled harder, I could have kept it going for a little longer. I don't know. But it was never, it was never done seriously, in terms of the. I was it. They had a producer, a junior, very junior producer and me. It was cheap and you couldn't. I mean, you couldn't get. You couldn't get help. That was fine as long as they left it on. But when they say we need higher ratings and you need, you need to reporters and you need, you need to do it. You need a senior producer, a person who's. Who knows what they're doing and cares. They don't. So I. But I was sad to see it go. Yeah. And Take two was. Well, while it lasted. It was the foundation of my public Persona more than reporting. I had to do it just on reporting after that.

John Dehlin [03:16:50] And do you remember the year that Take two ended approximately?

Rod Decker [03:16:53] It didn't end once. I think they may still have a Take Two three times a year.

John Dehlin [03:16:58] Do you remember the last year you did Take Two?

Rod Decker [03:17:00] No, no, because. Because I remember in about. It was. It was in the 90s when they first changed it, put in a sports show and gave me a worse time. And then from there it went down. But the last take two I probably did was. Was 20, 28 or 9. But it had been a couple of years since I'd done one before then, or a year since I'd done one before then. It would. It. It didn't. It didn't end. It. It sort of tapered off. Yeah, we'll do take two here. We'll do take two when we've got a half hour we need to fill, and then they just stop. They still do that.

John Dehlin [03:17:41] That.

Rod Decker [03:17:41] They stopped calling it take two.

Retirement, Family, and Reflections on Career

John Dehlin [03:17:43] Okay. What year did you retire from KUTV?

Rod Decker [03:17:46] 2017. Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [03:17:48] Only four years ago.

Rod Decker [03:17:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:49] Okay.

Rod Decker [03:17:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:50] So you were still reporting all through?

Rod Decker [03:17:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I just retired in September of 2017. I was, what, 76.

John Dehlin [03:18:01] Why'd you retire? Did they make you or did you want to?

Rod Decker [03:18:03] No, no, they'd have. They'd have let me stay. Well, A, it was getting to be time, and B, my wife had cancer and. And she died in January of 18.

John Dehlin [03:18:18] How long were you married?

Rod Decker [03:18:20] We married in 72, so 38, 40 some odd years. And let me see if I can think. Eight from. From 72. It was 38. Well, it counts out more than that, but I think it was 40 some years. Wow.

John Dehlin [03:18:41] So your. Your wife passed away?

Rod Decker [03:18:43] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:44] You were married for a long time?

Rod Decker [03:18:46] Yeah, yeah. And. And I was very happy with her. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good marriage. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:52] Did she work outside the home or.

Rod Decker [03:18:54] She was a juvenile judge, a lawyer. She married, we came back here. She went to law school. I worked. She went to law school at the U. Yeah. She then was a prosecutor for a couple of years. Then she quit for 16 years to raise kids. Then she went back and worked and eventually became a juvenile judge in 2006, I guess, and was 10 years a juvenile judge and then retired when she got cancer. No, that's not really. It was 2001 or two when she became a juvenile judge. She retired when she was diagnosed, which was 2015, 2005. She was appointed, retired, and I wanted to spend some time with her.

John Dehlin [03:19:50] How many kids do you guys end up having?

Rod Decker [03:19:52] Three. We got three kids.

John Dehlin [03:19:54] Three kids.

Rod Decker [03:19:55] And we. And we. I have six grandkids.

John Dehlin [03:19:59] Yeah.

Rod Decker [03:20:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:01] You like being a grandpa?

Rod Decker [03:20:02] Yeah, I love being a grandpa.

John Dehlin [03:20:05] Did you remarry or.

Rod Decker [03:20:06] No, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [03:20:07] You've never remarried? Any interest in remarrying or. No.

Rod Decker [03:20:12] Huh. I'm 80. I probably won't.

John Dehlin [03:20:17] I think. I think it's common for men to remarry very quickly when their wife passes away. That's my perception.

Rod Decker [03:20:25] Some. Some men do.

John Dehlin [03:20:27] But you. You didn't want to just say if you. If you're comfortable saying. Why. Why didn't you follow that?

Rod Decker [03:20:32] I don't want to. I don't. I'm not gonna marry again. I. I have a. I have a friend.

John Dehlin [03:20:39] Okay. Yeah.

Rod Decker [03:20:40] A significant other.

John Dehlin [03:20:41] Okay.

Rod Decker [03:20:42] And. But I'm not. Like, we're not gonna marry.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] Sounds like you really loved your wife and really loved being married to her.

Rod Decker [03:20:51] Yes, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. I had a really good marriage.

John Dehlin [03:20:54] What were the secrets of a good marriage?

Rod Decker [03:20:56] Well, the secrets was she was really good. She was a very good person. She took care of me and was nice to me, and you must have

John Dehlin [03:21:06] been okay to her.

Rod Decker [03:21:08] I. I wasn't as nice to her as she was to be, but I was. I wasn't. I. I was acceptable. And. And we. We liked each other and got along and were happy together.

John Dehlin [03:21:25] Do kids live here in Utah?

Rod Decker [03:21:27] No. No. Seattle, Louisiana. Jacksonville, Florida.

John Dehlin [03:21:31] Oh. And if they followed in your footsteps at all or.

Rod Decker [03:21:33] No, no, no, no, no. I have a son who works for Microsoft in Seattle. I have a daughter who edits movies and TV shows in la, and I have a daughter who works as a college administrator in Jacksonville. And they're all married. They all have kids.

John Dehlin [03:21:52] Nice. Where'd they go to high school?

Rod Decker [03:21:55] Two of them went to. To west and.

John Dehlin [03:21:59] Wait, that's rivals of East.

Rod Decker [03:22:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It didn't. I. It caused no problem at all. Okay. Two of them went to west, and the youngest graduated from East. They changed the districts. They changed the lines.

John Dehlin [03:22:16] West is a really good school.

Rod Decker [03:22:17] West is a good school.

John Dehlin [03:22:19] Yeah. So zeast.

Rod Decker [03:22:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:21] All right, so as you reflect on your career choice of being a journalist and your decision to stay in Utah, what are your reflections of Kind of the life of a Utah.

Rod Decker [03:22:36] That was the best thing for me. I liked being a journalist much better than I would have liked being an academic. And I had fun. It was good being a journalist. I made more money than I would have as an academic and had more fun. And. And staying in Utah was good. I'm much better. I'm happy here. Having some understanding of the place, of its history, of my ancestors, of the way things work and have worked. Being able to write books and articles about the place. That's really good for me now. And had I gone to Cincinnati and then Cleveland or whatever, that. That would. It Wouldn't be like that, right?

John Dehlin [03:23:29] Yeah. Do you feel appreciated and loved by the Utah community for your service? Do you feel ignored and forgotten? How do you feel?

Rod Decker [03:23:38] I feel. I feel appreciated, maybe more than I deserve.

John Dehlin [03:23:43] Really? People are kind to you.

Rod Decker [03:23:45] Yeah. People even a lot of people don't know, but they don't remember. But now and then I get someone who says, oh, I saw you on tv and I really enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [03:23:55] Yeah.

Rod Decker [03:23:56] And I like that.

John Dehlin [03:23:58] Good. Well, we're bringing. We're bringing Rod Decker back here on Mormon Stories podcast. He's. We brought Sandra Tanner a little bit back, and we're bringing Rod Decker back because you've. You've done really important things. I hope you're constantly stopped and thanked.

Rod Decker [03:24:12] Not constantly. Now.

John Dehlin [03:24:14] Occasionally.

Rod Decker [03:24:15] Occasionally, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:16] You only retired four years ago.

Rod Decker [03:24:18] That's right. But how quickly they forget. Okay, but it's. It's. I mean, that. That's fine. You wouldn't want. It's about right.

John Dehlin [03:24:28] You don't want to be bothered all the time.

Rod Decker [03:24:31] I wouldn't want to be. I mean, that I would choose not to be too recognizable and. But it makes me feel good when somebody says, I saw you and I liked you.

John Dehlin [03:24:41] Okay. So how are you enjoying retirement?

Rod Decker [03:24:45] And I really like to retire. Yeah, I really like retirement.

John Dehlin [03:24:49] Some say it's unhealthy. Some say it's unhealthy.

Rod Decker [03:24:51] It is. There are studies. I have a friend who's an economist, and she did a study in Europe, and she took the retirement ages. The different European countries have different retirement ages, and she took the retirement ages. And then they have surveys to show dementia. And dementia follows retirement almost exactly. You retire at 65, you have more. If a country that retires at 60 has more dementia at 62, a country that retires at 62 catches up at 64 and. And so forth. Okay, that's. That's just one study of work. Work. You may not like it, but it turns out, overall, it's probably good for you. I'm. I may be getting a little dementia, but I haven't had. It's not too bad yet. And I like retirement.

John Dehlin [03:25:52] So what are you doing with your retirement?

Rod Decker [03:25:53] I'm writing books. I'm writing a book about my grandson. I wrote a book about my granddaughter when I had one. Now I've got six. And what looked like a pretty good idea at the time is, I'll bring you the book next time.

John Dehlin [03:26:09] How are you writing books about your grandchildren? What does that mean?

Rod Decker [03:26:12] Every time I go and see him or I, I. On the Plane home. I write 500 words and then I have. I added it and put it together. Then the mom sends me a bunch of pictures and I hire this nice lady to put the pictures in. And I go to a printer and there's a book.

John Dehlin [03:26:43] Wow, what a great gift for your grandchildren.

Rod Decker [03:26:46] Well, I don't know. The daughter really liked it. She thought it was neat. I don't know whether this. The grandson will.

John Dehlin [03:26:53] Right.

Rod Decker [03:26:54] But I got more to do. I. I have to write every time I go see him.

John Dehlin [03:26:58] You got to hope your kids stop having kids, right? Can't write that many books.

Rod Decker [03:27:04] I don't know whether I'll get them all done. My. My youngest is. Is. Will be three.

John Dehlin [03:27:12] Youngest grandkid.

Rod Decker [03:27:13] Yeah. And I usually get them whether seven or eight, so. So I think I'll get them all done on.

Rod Decker's Books and Current Writing

John Dehlin [03:27:21] So the two books that I want to make sure and promote. Is this your first book?

Rod Decker [03:27:25] That's my first.

John Dehlin [03:27:26] So it's called. I'm showing it to those. It's called An Environment for Murder by Rod Decker. Tell us about this book.

Rod Decker [03:27:33] It's a murder mystery. The hero is a newspaper reporter. People used to ask if it was me, and I says, it's what. And I used to say it's what I would have been like if I hadn't married Chris. And that's about public federal lands in Utah and development. And then the nonfiction is about Utah politics.

John Dehlin [03:28:00] So the second book I'm showing is Rod Decker's Utah Politics. The elephant in the room. What do you want to say about this book?

Rod Decker [03:28:07] It's about Utah politics and it says Utah politics and government. And if you've listened to this podcast, you've heard some of the stuff that said it. The thesis is, the fact is, and it's pointed out in the book, Utah has the most religiously divided electorate of any state. If only non Mormons voted, Utah would be thoroughly Democratic. Utah would have been the most Democratic state for the. Think of his name. Al Gore would have been the most Democratic state for Al Gore. Fifth most Democratic. For Hillary Clinton, if only non.

John Dehlin [03:28:50] So the Democrats are the most Democratic.

Rod Decker [03:28:53] The non Mormon.

John Dehlin [03:28:54] The non Mormons are the most Democratic.

Rod Decker [03:28:56] Yeah, but they're overwhelmed because there's so many Mormons.

John Dehlin [03:29:00] Right.

Rod Decker [03:29:00] Okay. Why? What happened is Utah used to be mainstream and the parties used to mix. Democrats, Republicans, Latter Day Saints, Don Mormons. That changed to the 70s. This talks about how it changed over moral issues and. And how it's persisted since then and why it changed. And then I talk about the governor, the Legislature, land, water, schools, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [03:29:29] It's really interesting.

Rod Decker [03:29:31] Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:29:31] Are you working. Do you have another. Are you working on a new book that's not about yours?

Rod Decker [03:29:36] I have an article coming out. I had an article last year in the Utah Historical Quarterly and I'm going to have an article in September in the Utah.

John Dehlin [03:29:45] What are they about?

Rod Decker [03:29:46] The one. The one last year was about freight rates, which doesn't seem very interesting, but I thought it was pretty cool. It used to be the case before about 1910. If you shipped 100 pounds of Dales from Chicago to San Francisco, it cost you a dollar. If you shipped the same hundred pounds of nails from Chicago through Ogden to. And stopped in Ogden and the train went on to San Francisco, it cost you $2. Everything was. Everything was like that. Rates were. Utah was discriminated against in the matter of freight rates.

John Dehlin [03:30:30] Really?

Rod Decker [03:30:30] Yes. And it was a big deal. Everything came in by rail in those days. They didn't have trucks and so things came by rail. And this is about that and about how Utah went to the Interstate Commerce Commission and won a case and got that changed and how it was a big political issue. Utah was the second to last state to have a state regulation of railroads and. And trucks and stuff. And it's. So it's about that.

John Dehlin [03:31:03] Why were they discriminating against us? Do you know?

Rod Decker [03:31:06] They just. Yeah, they discriminated against a lot of inland cities. What they said, and it was probably true, was from Chicago. We have to charge less from Chicago to San Francisco because if we don't, the Chicago guys will ship their nails to New York, put them on a ship, ship, ship them and ship them by boat to San Francisco. We have to meet the boat rates in San Francisco, but in Utah there aren't any boat rates. We'll just charge you guys whatever the traffic will bear.

John Dehlin [03:31:39] Got it? So it's competition.

Rod Decker [03:31:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:42] All right. You said there's a new article. You're.

Rod Decker [03:31:44] You're. That's about penny stocks. Utah used to be the home.

John Dehlin [03:31:48] Yeah, I remember that.

Rod Decker [03:31:49] Penny stocks. Okay. And this is about the penny stock market in Utah.

John Dehlin [03:31:54] Now or then.

Rod Decker [03:31:55] Then. There isn't any market now. The government killed it. Regulated regulation of prosecution. It's dead. But I mean, there may be a penny stock or two, but it used to be a big deal. There were 50 penny stock brokerages and hundreds of salesmen and. And lots of swindlers and crooks and. And it was a. A wild time. And this is about that.

John Dehlin [03:32:22] So you were telling that history.

Rod Decker [03:32:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:24] The penny Stock history in Utah.

Rod Decker [03:32:25] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:26] So no more books planned, ever. No books in you?

Rod Decker [03:32:29] Oh, well, I'm gonna write books about my grandkids, but no other books? I don't think so. Maybe I'll do. I'm just too old.

John Dehlin [03:32:36] No dementia, man. Right. You got to fight off the dementia.

Rod Decker [03:32:39] Well, the articles may do that. So you're gonna keep the grandkids? Your books about your grandkids. I got. I still got five grandkids. I'm doing. Doing the second book, and I'll go. I don't know whether I'll get them all done.

Reflections on the Mormon Church and Belief

John Dehlin [03:32:54] Okay, so let me ask you. Let me end with a couple questions related to just Mormonism in the Mormon Church. One is a lot of people these days who leave the Mormon Church are kind of really mad at the church. They feel betrayed, they feel misled, they feel deceived, or they feel like the church has been racist and sexist and homophobic, and they've hurt women and they've hurt minorities and they've. They've hurt LGBT people and the suicide rates. And there's a lot of anger right now against the Mormon Church. Yeah, you don't seem to have that.

Rod Decker [03:33:25] I have none of that. I like them.

John Dehlin [03:33:27] And so why. If you were to make a case to ex Mormons today on why they shouldn't be so angry at the church, would you make that case? And if so, what would your argument be?

Rod Decker [03:33:41] I think that there. Good people, more Latter Day Saints are. Now, again, you distinguish from the church.

John Dehlin [03:33:48] I'm talking about the church, not the people.

Rod Decker [03:33:50] Okay? The. The church, they run a good organization. They're reasonably charitable. I think they help. So the Salt Lake and Utah communities, be what they are. And if that's what you like, if not, why you go away if you want. I mean, I'm not saying you should leave, but. But.

John Dehlin [03:34:11] But

Rod Decker [03:34:14] it seems to me that they want to get along, that they want to be good neighbors. They have been tardy on issues of race, same sex marriage, feminism, social issues, basically. Well, moral issues, they say is what they would call them. And they've been tardy, but it hasn't been very tardy, and it hasn't done. I don't know that how much damage it's done. The. The gays were married here before almost anywhere else, matter of fact, to the church's chagrin. And you mentioned suicide. I. I am skeptical. I don't know. There's a story that young Mormons, young Mormon gays commit suicide in high numbers. I don't think there's any data to back that up. I don't say it isn't true. There's a certain amount of sense in the story, but I think there is no data. What we have on teenage. I've looked and what I can find. All I can find on teenage suicide in Utah is the number of teenage suicides. Utah is higher than the national average, but lower than some of the neighboring states in teenage suicide. No one knows how many gay kids commit suicide. No one knows how many Mormon kids commit suicide. Nobody, though that's just a story. Now, people who are familiar with who help teens and so forth, some of them say anecdotally yeah, but I think there's nothing more to it than that. There is a counter story. I don't. There's no data for the counter story that. Well, there is some data, but not. I don't think any of it's Utah data. The religious kids commit suicide less than non religious kids, but I don't think there's any Utah data to back that story. So. So maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:36:33] Okay, so for the people that feel like the church. Some people like to call the church a fraud or a cult or. Or talk about mass deception of the membership by hiding its history or mis. Misrepresenting its history or not being open and honest or. It seems like you kind of haven't been in that headspace for a long time, if ever. But do you not do the church

Rod Decker [03:37:04] has hid some of its history? I don't know that that's a huge crime. I mean, most of it came. At least a lot of it has come out anyway. And so you didn't know about polygamy and Nauvoo. You didn't know the full horror of the story. Is that really a big deal? The church we've known. The worst thing to my mind much the worst thing is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And that's been known for a long time, though the church has sort of covered that up for a while. Sort of. They couldn't cover it up entirely, but they gave Juanita Brooks a hard time when she was writing, writing her book about it, the first book about it. It's a fraud. Well, okay, you might believe it's a fraud, but the big. The big truth claim is Jesus rose from the dead. If Jesus did, is that a fraud? Does that make you angry? If it doesn't, then what's this little stuff about? He appeared to Joseph Smith in for a penny, in for a pounds My, my view. I don't, I happen not to believe that stuff, but I don't see why it should make you angry that some people believe it.

John Dehlin [03:38:28] So I'm just, I am really curious about this. So, so for a lot of people, it's like we were told the Book of Mormon was historical. Now with all the anachronisms in the DNA, you're learning it's not. We're told that the Book of Abraham was a true. Oh, go ahead, Go ahead.

Rod Decker [03:38:45] Okay, go. But go ahead. Okay, but probably Jesus. My own view is Jesus didn't rise from the dead. I don't, I don't believe that. Okay. And that seems to be. No, no bigger deception than the Book of Mormon isn't historical if you want to believe that stuff. So there's. My teacher, Leo Strauss used to say he was a Jewish scholar. And they talked about.

John Dehlin [03:39:14] At the U.

Rod Decker [03:39:15] No, at Chicago.

John Dehlin [03:39:16] Oh, right. Famous.

Rod Decker [03:39:17] He talked about the Bible. He said, well, the higher critics show that the Bible contradicts itself. But if you're a believer, those aren't contradictions. They're secrets. They're God saying if you study and think and pray hard enough, you'll, you'll see that this isn't a contradiction. Well, you could do that with, you could believe that of the Mormon stuff too, if you want to. I don't. I don't. But if, if you want to. And, and, and you could believe that of the DNA. Yeah. So DNA shows the. But maybe there were some who came and then they were overwhelming. Maybe God changed the DNA. I don't know. Maybe he, Maybe he made the world in six days 6,000 years ago. But, but he created a world that was 10 billion years old. He did it in six days and it was only 6,000 years old, but it was 10 billion years old when it was created. That was a thesis put forward by a, A, an Anglican clergyman in the, in the 8 18th century. I mean, you can believe it. That that's, I can't prove that any of that isn't true.

John Dehlin [03:40:40] Right.

Rod Decker [03:40:41] I wasn't there.

John Dehlin [03:40:44] I mean, you really are interesting to me in the sense that you, you figured out that for you the church wasn't true in the early 60s and you just kind of like, moved on.

Rod Decker [03:40:59] No, I'm still attached in some ways and I still have. But, but yeah, the church makes me mad sometimes when it, with its influence. Sometimes I think it exercises influence in wrong ways and I get angry, but I don't get. My wife used to get furious at the Catholic Church. But she was devout, and she'd say, well, they're. I'm not going to leave. I've just got a. I've just got accepted, and. And I've left, so I don't have to accept it.

John Dehlin [03:41:29] Well, part of the difference that I'm wondering about between you and a lot of the people I meet with every day, and there's a reason I have a listenership, and it's because there's so many people that feel the way I'm about to describe. They don't figure it out in their teens or early 20s. They go on the mission, they get married in the temple. They have all these kids as soon as possible. And then they, you know, 10, 20, 30 years go by. They've given 10% of their income to the church. They've given their time. They've basically given everything. And then.

Rod Decker [03:42:03] Then they say it's a fraud.

John Dehlin [03:42:05] Then they realize that things aren't the way they were taught. That's. That's like one blow.

Rod Decker [03:42:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:12] But then they also learned that the church has known for a long time that things aren't the way they were taught, and the church intentionally chose to not be honest about that. And so now they're in their 30s or 40s and 50s. Life may not be as great as it was for you and your wife. And they're saying, my life's approaching over, and I gave all that time and money, and I wouldn't have made those decisions. So something's interesting about your story is that you figured it out early so you didn't have to go through all that, that would lead to regret, whereas all these people have. And so part of what's interesting is how in the world did Rod Decker figure this out so early when so many other people didn't figure it out later?

Rod Decker [03:42:54] It's typical to leave when you're 18, 20. That's when most people leave.

John Dehlin [03:42:59] But it seems like you're not totally, like, zoned in or tuned in to this dilemma, which now is like an epidemic.

Rod Decker [03:43:09] I see. Okay, first off, when you say the church knew. Now, the church probably knew about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and they knew. But I think those guys believe. I think the church hierarchy and the most active Mormons, they believe it and they believe it, and they think that, okay, a guy might work for the naacp. He finds out that African Americans commit. He finds out when he's 50, African Americans commit crime at a higher rate than. Than other groups. I've been deceived. They knew this. They did. Well, the NAACP Might say that isn't what we want to emphasize, and I'm with the NAACP on that. Okay. Somebody says, says of the, the latter, the leaders of the Mormon Church believe they're doing God's work in some way or other. They believe what they've got is a good thing. They believe for most Latter Day Saints, the church works maybe for less than, than it used to. I don't know, maybe, maybe it's changing, but my experience was people who were faithful in the Latter Day Saint Church. I have a brother and a sister who are. And, and some friends. It works okay for them. It's a pretty good.

John Dehlin [03:44:38] Good.

Rod Decker [03:44:39] It's a pretty good life. It's a pretty good plan. It's a pretty. It'll get you through. And I don't see any reason why that should make you angry.

John Dehlin [03:44:50] I mean, I guess some people think the Brethren knowingly deceived its members for decades.

Rod Decker [03:44:55] Okay, now, now, I think the brothers may have withheld, say they may not have preached about DNA and the Book of Mormon. That doesn't seem to me to be their business to preach that. What, what, what specifically do you think that they withhold?

John Dehlin [03:45:09] Well, I think the list would be like the, the fact that the papyrus, you know, weren't translated, that Egyptologists knew back, back in 1912 that the Egyptian papyrus were.

Rod Decker [03:45:20] Okay, but now, now, wait, the. Okay, Egyptologists do that now. The Egyptologists read it and that's true. It doesn't say what Joseph Smith said. It said. Okay, but maybe he kind of looked at it and it put him into. It was a little bit like smoking dope. He looked at it and he had these visions and he had. And he dictated stuff. Okay. And they know I don't believe that stuff, but I think some people do. And others say, well, yes, he may have just made it up. He looked at this and then he essentially made it up.

John Dehlin [03:46:00] Up.

Rod Decker [03:46:00] But the stuff he came out with isn't so bad. It's not bad stuff. It's, it's, it's. It's an original cosmology, an original way of looking at, sort of congruent. Not entirely, but sort of congruent with, with the Christian way of looking at things. And it, it's worked for a community and it works for a lot of people. I don't see, I can see why you might say, no, I don't believe that stuff. I don't see why. No, I don't believe it.

John Dehlin [03:46:35] All right, let's keep going. Can we do a couple more, just really quickly so at the Book of Mormon, it would be, we were taught that an angel delivered golden plates and then Joseph Smith translated from reformed Egyptian into English. And now we have an ancient record of the Native Americans. Right. And that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion and it's God's ancient record of the Native American inhabitants. Then we find out later that actually Joseph Smith was a treasure digger and he used this peep stone to defraud people with treasure digging and the Book of Mormon. There's so many geographical, DNA, genetic, linguistic, archaeological problems that by BH Roberts time, by 1922, it was probably pretty evident to the church leaders that the Book of Mormon was so problematic in terms of a historical document that it was Joseph Smith's fabrication, not a history of Native American people.

Rod Decker [03:47:39] Moses wrote the Pentateuch? Well, no, he probably did, but I don't see any reason why a Jewish kid should leave the faith over that. There may be. There may be a God in heaven. There may be. I don't know. I haven't looked. There may be a God who, who runs the world sort of in the way the Mormons say he does. I can't prove that there isn't. They want to believe that stuff, that's fine. And that seems to be. They're pretty good neighbors and stuff. I don't, I.

John Dehlin [03:48:13] But if, if the Book of Mormon.

Rod Decker [03:48:15] Yes. If you want to be mad, it's okay to be mad. But I. It seems to me that's. That's just silly. Why be mad? Why get on with your life?

John Dehlin [03:48:24] Well, if you base your whole life on it and it turned out to not be true, and the brethren should have known better.

Rod Decker [03:48:30] Now wait a minute. It didn't turn out not to be true. It turned out the DNA is. The DNA shows that a majority. It doesn't show. Maybe some people were here or maybe God changed the DNA. Maybe he's a joker.

John Dehlin [03:48:45] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Rod Decker [03:48:47] Maybe. Maybe some people came the way the Book of Mormon said and other people came across the Bering Strait and the. What we've got is Bering Strait DNA. Maybe. I don't know. I don't believe that. But that. I can't. Can somebody say that isn't true? What. What evidence is there that it isn't true? I don't know of any evidence that it isn't true. I don't know of any evidence that it is. You wouldn't normally believe it, but I don't know of any evidence that it is. What evidence is there that it isn't that. Can you prove that people that live in these, These little boats. Can you prove that?

John Dehlin [03:49:20] Okay, this is fun, by the way, just so everyone knows, I'm having fun arguing with Rod Decker as Rod Decker defends the Mormon Church. This is great. And this is just kind of fun. No, if I were to. And this is just. I'm purely doing this out of fun now, just so you know. But, but if you were to. If you were. You know, we're in the age of Mark Hoffman or a revitalization of Mark Hoffman, and forgeries and anachronisms can disprove the veracity of a document. If someone were to uncover a document where it's supposedly a letter written by Abraham Lincoln, and in the letter written by Abraham Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln says, and I really wanted to talk to Andrew Johnson, or I was mad at Robert E. Lee, so I grabbed my cell phone and I gave him a call. Okay, so it only takes. Takes one legitimate anachronism.

Rod Decker [03:50:11] No. No.

John Dehlin [03:50:12] What?

Rod Decker [03:50:12] No, wait a minute. That Leo Strauss. That's not. That's not a contradiction. That's not a disproof. That's a secret. Why did God do that? God must have had something in mind when he did that. And that's what. That's what a Talmudic scholar will say. And I don't see why. Why, why did. Why did. Yes, God put some anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Why would he do that?

John Dehlin [03:50:38] The Book of Mormon is one big anachronism. How about that?

Rod Decker [03:50:42] Well, okay. Why did he do that? Why. Why did he. Why do. Why would God do that? Now, now, you. I don't think. If, if, if you assume a, A, an omnipotent God, then I don't see why he couldn't have done the Book of Mormon and fooled you. I, I don't. I'm not saying that he did or that he would. I'm saying.

John Dehlin [03:51:12] You're saying it's a reasonable position.

Rod Decker [03:51:13] I don't know. Reasonable. It is a. It is. It is impossible to disprove, is what I'm saying. Now, not everything. It's impossible to disprove that Elvis is alive. I think it is. You could dig up his corpse. But maybe it's a fake. Maybe he's. Maybe there. Maybe God made another Elvis. I mean, I don't know, but it seems to me impossible to. You can. You can believe Mormonism if that's what you want to do. And maybe there are some things that you say. Well, no, that probably isn't True. We don't know. I don't know. The Mormons I know they might say, yeah, the Book of Mormons, anachronistic. And maybe it was sort of thought up in a trance under the effects by Joseph Smith. I know Mormons, good Mormons who believe, who are skeptical about that, skeptical about a lot of things.

John Dehlin [03:52:17] And if somebody says Joseph's behavior with women, with other men's wives, with, with women married to other men, I'm going to try and stop using that term. Other men's wives with 14 year old girls. You know, there are people that read the history and say this is a sexual predator. Joseph Smith. This is not. Okay, I know that those are strong words, especially in Mormon culture.

Rod Decker [03:52:40] My understanding is it's not clear how much sex he had. He married about 30 women. But this is, this is Bushman, I get this from. And I don't know, I don't remember his source. He didn't find it.

John Dehlin [03:52:55] Let's just say it's 10 or 15

Rod Decker [03:52:57] instead of up to 30 women he married.

John Dehlin [03:53:01] But if some of the 16, 17, 18 year olds or other, some of them are.

Rod Decker [03:53:05] Okay, I'll get to the young thing in a minute. But it's not clear how much sex he had. Nobody, according to Bushman, nobody has with DNA has found a descendant of Joseph Smith, except by Emma. It isn't, it isn't like Abraham Lincoln. I've got, I don't, I mean, Thomas Jefferson isn't like Thomas Jefferson. Yeah, it isn't, it isn't like there's DNA evidence now he married him. He probably had some sex, almost surely. Okay, but it isn't clear. It isn't clear how much.

John Dehlin [03:53:41] Probably at least a dozen of the wives testified that they had sex.

Rod Decker [03:53:45] Okay, I'm not saying that they didn't have sex. I don't know whether he may have a few times he, he may not have been. Sex may not have been the big deal. Or maybe it was. I, I don't.

John Dehlin [03:53:55] Hiding it, denying it, lying to Emma about it. Add all that in there.

Rod Decker [03:53:59] Okay, and now the little girls. Okay, 14, 14 was a marriageable age in those days. I mean there was, there's lots of stories of. There were, there were, there was a hand card company and they were starving in Wyoming and two fur trappers came through and said, we'll marry, we'll marry some girls and they could ride behind us and we'll take them out of this mess. Two girls came forward. One of them was 14 or 15. She and the fur trapper went to Salt Lake, where she converted him and they lived happily ever after. Or at least, so the story goes, 14, I guess it was young, but it was not 14 then, wasn't 14 now. And, and so I, I think it's anachronistic to judge him, to judge somebody too harshly for marrying a teenager. Yes, we think of it as bad now, and it would be wrong. And maybe it was wrong then, but they didn't see it as so much as wrong now. Yes, he lied, lied through his teeth about it.

John Dehlin [03:55:08] Okay, so maybe to ask the question from another angle, you know, we know who Jim Jones was. We know who David Koresh was. We know who Warren Jeffs is. We, we can think about cult leaders, David Miskovich. We know about Keith Rainier. You know, there are infamous kind of cult leaders that we all kind of agree this is bad stuff. These are bad dudes. You do bad stuff that hurt a lot of people. Some like to make the argument there's not a lot of difference between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs, you know, David Koresh, Jim Jones. Except Joseph Smith died before the apocalyptic ending could, could kill lots and lots of people.

Rod Decker [03:55:53] Well, and there was an apocalyptic thing, if they can.

John Dehlin [03:55:55] Well, one, but, but it, for whatever reason, it didn't end up with the, you know, hundreds.

Rod Decker [03:56:00] Well, that seems, that seems to me to be, to be not entirely unimportant. Jim Jones killed, I don't know what, several thousand. Okay. That didn't happen. The latter in Latter Day Saint history. Some bad things did, but that didn't. And that seems to be a reasonable distinction.

John Dehlin [03:56:22] Okay.

Rod Decker [03:56:22] Yeah, he was like Jim Jones. Okay. He was. I recall, I remember a joke from high school. Why is. What's the same about Santa Claus and Dwight D. Eisenhower? They both have long white beards, except for Dwight D. Eisenhower. And that's like Joseph Smith. What's, what's about, what's the same about, about Jim Jones and Joseph Smith. They both killed 10,000 people, except for Joseph Smith didn't.

John Dehlin [03:56:46] Okay. And so the difference in Joe Smith and Warren Jeffs to you is what

Rod Decker [03:56:52] the meaning the laws changed, I think. I hope he was a better guy. Warren Jeff seems to me to be a smarmy bad fellow, but you don't

John Dehlin [03:57:02] allow, you don't think of Joseph Smith that way.

Rod Decker [03:57:05] No, I don't, I don't know. I don't know him. He may have been a smarmy bad fellow, but, but I, but I mean, Warren Jeff seems to me to be, be a bad man. And, and, and I don't Joseph Smith Times changed it. Nowadays it's, it's wrong to marry 12, 13, 14 year olds. I don't know whether Joseph Smith ever married a 12 year old. Maybe he did, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:57:30] It's 14.

Rod Decker [03:57:31] Okay, okay, then it was less wrong to marry or maybe not wrong at all to marry a 14 year old. You could, you could do it legally,

John Dehlin [03:57:40] but it was illegal to marry 37 women.

Rod Decker [03:57:43] Yeah, it was illegal to marry, but I, I'm a libertarian towards, towards polygamy. I believe, I believe in same sex marriage. I believe if three people want to live together or 20 people want to live together and they're consenting adults, that's their business and none of my own. Okay, now that wasn't the law then, but it doesn't seem to me to be a huge moral problem for me. I think that if, if he had now, he, he not only. He didn't just honestly take women, he sort of sneaked up on him evidently. I mean he told him it was religion and so forth.

John Dehlin [03:58:26] Yeah, he basically used his position of power where everyone thought he was God's mouthpiece on the earth.

Rod Decker [03:58:30] But.

John Dehlin [03:58:31] Yeah, and he's pressuring them, saying God said it was okay.

Rod Decker [03:58:34] Okay, but, but okay. He, I don't claim he was a perfect guy. I don't know. I don't know. He may, he may have been an imperfect guy and still a prophet. I, I happen to believe he wasn't a prophet, but he may have been an imperfect guy. He doesn't seem to me to be imperfect like Jim Jones. I hope he's not imperfect like Warren Jeffs, but he, I don't know that he was. He even, even even though he was imperfect, he may still have been a prophet.

John Dehlin [03:59:07] Interesting there. I mean, I know you don't believe that he translated the papyrus, the, the Book of Mormon's historical, that, you know, God called him to, you know, practice polygamy. And so what, what some conclude is he was perpetuating knowing fraud on people. Some people say that intentionally.

Rod Decker [03:59:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:59:32] Deceiving people to get power and money and sex.

Rod Decker [03:59:36] That might have been true. I don't know. My.

John Dehlin [03:59:38] But that's not how you generally tend to think of him.

Rod Decker [03:59:40] No, I tend to think of him as a guy who, who I think of prophets and religious figures in general as. I don't think that Moses brought down the, the tablets from Mount Sinai. I think that religious figures in general have. You could call it inspiration. They have insight, they have, they have things to say and they say them. And some of them are Important. And then stories get made up partly by them and by others as to that go with what they have to say. I think that's probably the way some religion works. My opinion. And maybe, maybe the stories are done. Maybe what they say has in it some kind of artistic or spiritual insight and it's still a good way to live your life. Or maybe I'm just wrong. And God in fact came and said to Joseph Smith and, and Joseph, when Joseph Smith died, God said, jesus, Joseph, what are you doing? With. What about this. I'm sorry. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe, but, but I can't prove that it's all wrong. And it seems to me if that's what you want, it's a reasonably good way to live your life.

John Dehlin [04:01:21] I guess there's some people that look at Joseph and say, conscious, knowing, manipulating.

Rod Decker [04:01:27] May have been. May have been.

John Dehlin [04:01:28] No, no, no. But there's other people that say there's this pious fraud idea that comes from Dan Vogel and others that says, yes, there were times where he probably knew he was deceiving people, but, but overall he probably believed he was being led by God, and he probably believed he was channeling revelation and that he was sincere in his general practice.

Rod Decker [04:01:54] If you report on fraud cases, almost always the first person a fraudster fools is himself. They almost always believe that this is a really good deal. Now, I've told some things, I've said some things that aren't true, but fundamentally I'm going to end up making people a lot of money. And they sort, and, and they sort of believe that, or at least a lot of them do. And, and I think maybe some, maybe some religious people are like that. Maybe on the other hand, God is really telling them, I can't tell the difference.

John Dehlin [04:02:32] But, but maybe you allow for Joseph Smith to have been sincere.

Rod Decker [04:02:36] Yeah, he may have been. As Dan Fogel says. He, I, if I were guessing, that's about what I'd guess he was. He was sincere most of the time. He did some tomfoolery. He knew, and he probably knew that he ought not to be taking young women for wives. And so he lied to it, lied about it, gotten, got in various kinds of trouble. But he, he sincerely thought that would be my guess most of the time. But God may have spoken through him, or he may have at all the time have been, have gone out back here. How stupid are those people? I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:03:16] And when he produced scripture like the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, you probably think it's most likely that he Thought he was getting revelation from God. Whether or not he was actually translating.

Rod Decker [04:03:27] I would think that, that he persuaded himself. But now I'm, I'm a non believer. I would think he persuaded himself, but he may have just been saying, I'm going to write down this stupid stuff because these people are so stupid. That's may have been what he thought or it may have been God who in fact had him write it. I, yeah, there may have been golden plates. I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:03:48] You probably don't think there were, though.

Rod Decker [04:03:49] No, no, no, I don't believe any of that stuff, but that's, that's, that's what I believe. I can't prove that it's, There may have been golden plates. I, I, I, I, I wasn't there. I didn't see.

John Dehlin [04:04:04] It also sounds like you don't disrespect a religious worldview, that there, there would be some people that leave a religion and say, man, those people that still believe, they're, they're dumb or they're ignorant or they're naive or they're, A lot

Rod Decker [04:04:16] of people believe that. I think, I think a religious worldview is about as good as a secular. Secular worldview?

John Dehlin [04:04:21] What do you mean?

Rod Decker [04:04:22] Okay, I think that I happen to have a secular worldview. Okay. I think that, say, our views of what the universe is like, I would think that they'll change a lot in the next hundred, 150 years. They won't be very much like what I believe now about the cosmos and what I believe now about the cosmos in terms of, of truth. I don't know, say, is how it would, how it would appear to God if there were a God may not be much closer than, than what the religious guy believes about the cosmos. I, I don't know, but that maybe not. And a religious view gives you answers to questions that a secular view can't give you. So I think a religious view is perfectly good, but I happen to not believe any religious views.

John Dehlin [04:05:17] So you don't see a religious worldview as inferior to a secular worldview?

Rod Decker [04:05:22] No, no, no, no, no. I think it's just as good even

John Dehlin [04:05:24] if it's not based in reality as much.

Rod Decker [04:05:27] Well, now wait a minute. What's this based in reality? I just said secular worldview. It's based, say, okay, the secular worldview of the 19th century, they believed in flaw, justice, in ether, as a, as a, as a substance between us and the sun. Okay, that isn't there, that, that isn't real. Was that any more based on reality than Somebody who was, who was Christian at the time. I don't know. It seems to be they're about equally unreal. My guess is the secular view now is in part unreal. I don't think, I don't think based we.

John Dehlin [04:06:03] But maybe a little closer to reality or not.

Rod Decker [04:06:05] Not. I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:06:07] You don't, you really don't? No, because I mean, when you see science deniers, people that.

Rod Decker [04:06:13] I'm not a science denier.

John Dehlin [04:06:14] No, I'm not saying you are. I'm saying that when, you know, in the case of some of us who are raised LDs, instead of going with organic evolution, which is pretty reliable, we're taught the 6,000 year, you know, Earth thing. Instead of going with.

Rod Decker [04:06:31] What were you taught that. I was never taught that.

John Dehlin [04:06:34] I was absolutely taught that the earth was 6,000 years old and.

Rod Decker [04:06:37] Okay, did somebody say evolution's untrue?

John Dehlin [04:06:39] Yeah, I was taught that evolution's evil. I was taught that Bruce Armaconkey taught that it was one of the seven deadly heresies to believe in evolution.

Rod Decker [04:06:47] Okay, now I was never taught that. I think most of my teachers believed in evolution. Most of my church teachers.

John Dehlin [04:06:53] Now this is some of the stuff came about in the 70s and 80s, believe it or not.

Rod Decker [04:06:57] And I, and I mean, I don't believe that. And, and I would if, if I were a Latter Day Saint, I, I'd suggest that they don't teach that Evolutions, Evolution. I don't know. I mean, I believe that's our best, our best explanation. But. And I, I think probably they do better if they didn't. That they do better if they didn't teach against it because the kids are going to grow up, find out that, learn in college that it's true and, and blame the church.

John Dehlin [04:07:33] Yeah.

Rod Decker [04:07:35] Of. But I think a religious worldview is just as good as a secular worldview.

John Dehlin [04:07:44] Right. Okay. All right. Yeah. And I'm not trying to argue it isn't. I'm trying to, it's, it's fun to hear you make these arguments.

Rod Decker [04:07:52] That's good. Okay.

Personal Spiritual Views and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [04:07:56] So do you have any spiritual or religious beliefs now? God, Jesus, the afterlife, Heaven?

Rod Decker [04:08:05] No, no, no. I, I, There may be God, there may be an afterlife. Sometimes I find myself thinking as if there is an afterlife. I find myself thinking about. I have a picture of, of sitting at a table with my male, I'm afraid my male ancestors. And we're drinking beer and we're watching might be beer and we're watching and they're movies and they're the movies of Our lives. And we make ribald comments and laugh and pound the table as we. As we look. Look at our lives. She really got you. Or something like that. And I sort of think. I sort of sometimes think of an afterlife, despite myself, but I don't believe in any of that stuff.

John Dehlin [04:08:56] So if a Mormon missionary comes up, knocks on your door and says, hey,

Rod Decker [04:08:59] I always say, come in, Elder. And then I say, I've been. I have been inactive for 60 years and I'm happy and I'm really not interested in the church. And they say, thanks.

John Dehlin [04:09:13] So you're still a member of Record? Record.

Rod Decker [04:09:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:15] But if you're. If they were to say to you. Now, now, Rod, your. Your beautiful wife passed away and I have a message for you that someday you can see her again and live with her for the eternity.

Rod Decker [04:09:28] I don't believe that.

John Dehlin [04:09:29] You don't?

Rod Decker [04:09:30] She. She believed it. She believed in. She. I don't know whether she believes she's ever going to see me again. She didn't know what it was like, but. But she believed that there would be some sort of. Of something after life.

John Dehlin [04:09:44] And how do you make peace with that? Some people. Some people choose to believe because they don't want to accept that there's no afterlife and that they're. They'll never see their loved ones again. How did you make peace with the idea that you might or will never see your loved one again?

Rod Decker [04:10:00] Same. Same as anybody else does.

John Dehlin [04:10:02] No, a lot of people don't know how to do it.

Rod Decker [04:10:04] What?

John Dehlin [04:10:05] How'd you do it?

Rod Decker [04:10:06] Well, that. That's just the fact.

John Dehlin [04:10:08] What do you mean the fact you

Rod Decker [04:10:09] don't know that's true? I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:10:11] So you could choose to believe.

Rod Decker [04:10:13] I suspect it's the fact. And I suspect it's the fact even though I'd rather. I'd rather be alive and be with her. That. That I suspect that's not going to happen. That's. And I accept that.

John Dehlin [04:10:26] Well, some people just say no. They don't suspect that there won't be an afterlife. They say there must be an afterlife. There can be all this beautiful life and then it just ends.

Rod Decker [04:10:35] Yeah, I believe there can be. If they want to believe there's an afterlife. I got. I can't prove that.

John Dehlin [04:10:40] I mean, for you, I've told you.

Rod Decker [04:10:42] For me, I think you just probably. There isn't. Yeah, I can't prove there isn't. I. As I look at things best, my best guess. It's only a guess. Never. Never actually been dead. The. The. My Best guess is that. That there's no afterlife because there's no

John Dehlin [04:11:04] evidence that would suggest that there will be. Is that right?

Rod Decker [04:11:09] I. I guess my best guess is that there isn't. That there is. That there is some evidence. There's. There's

John Dehlin [04:11:18] near death experiences or.

Rod Decker [04:11:19] Yeah, there's experiences. There's scripture that describes it. I don't believe that. I believe it's probably not true. True.

John Dehlin [04:11:26] Right. Okay. So does it make you sad that you won't see your wife again someday?

Rod Decker [04:11:30] Well, yeah, but that's part of the deal.

John Dehlin [04:11:33] You've come to accept that?

Rod Decker [04:11:35] Well, it's part. If you're a human being, to be human beings. To be means you're going to say goodbye to everyone you ever love. That's part of the deal?

John Dehlin [04:11:45] Yeah. And you've come to accept that?

Rod Decker [04:11:48] Well, I don't like it, but okay, that's part of the deal.

John Dehlin [04:11:53] And. And some people say man, if I. Some people say man, if I don't believe in God in an afterlife, why even bother living? It sounds like you're living seems to

Rod Decker [04:12:03] be pretty good thing. I mean, I think living is pretty good. I think the. I think living is aborbit, but is probably okay for a lot of people. I think the church is okay. It all seems to be not so bad. Not all. There are. There are things that seem to be not so bad, but most of the things that. That aren't illegal or clearly immoral or don't hurt make you. Don't make you fat seem to be not too bad.

John Dehlin [04:12:27] So if somebody says, well, Rod, what. What's the point of it all if you don't get to live afterwards? Why even bother now?

Rod Decker [04:12:33] No point.

John Dehlin [04:12:33] So why?

Rod Decker [04:12:35] Either you either like it or you don't.

John Dehlin [04:12:37] So why really?

Rod Decker [04:12:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:12:39] So why write books? Why be a journalist?

Rod Decker [04:12:41] Oh, that may be. I don't know. I've thought that I kind of like doing it. You enjoyed it. But in addition, maybe more important, I sort of think of. I want to accomplish things. Now why do I want to accomplish things? I think maybe part of it is a sort of religious holdover. I think of a summing up or a final judgment. I don't think of it before God, but I think I want. Or maybe it's before God I want to. To. To. To say I accomplished this. I want to have used my time reasonably well. Now that. That may be a holdover and it may be that my cosmology would lead to that. If a person wants to say, I. I don't see any point in living. That's good. Okay, fine, whatever you, whatever, whatever you like like. But for me, that's what I want to do.

John Dehlin [04:13:45] Are any of your kids religious at this point?

Rod Decker [04:13:47] If you were comfortable, all of them were Catholics, but none of them are, are serious Catholics at this point.

John Dehlin [04:13:54] Okay, so I think this is, this will be the last question. The, the many people raised in the Mormon Church these days were raised conditioned to think and feel that you can't be a good person without the church. You can't be a moral person without the church, that you can't raise good, healthy children outside the church, that you can't leave or really lead a healthy, productive, moral, happy life that only Mormons are truly happy and only Mormons are truly moral. And you've kind of defied that perception or stereotype, it would seem. You had a long term marriage, stable marriage, happy marriage, healthy marriage. You've been a healthy contributor. You've got kids, grandkids. How did you do it? How did you become a healthy, happy, thriving person in a healthy marriage without religion? How'd you do it?

Rod Decker [04:14:49] But you just do it. I don't know. You get married, you try it, try and act decently and make her happy and be a good person and you try and be a good dad and you try and, and make a living and you try and be, be and you try and, and, and do stuff, do, do worthwhile stuff. That's, that's all. I don't know, I don't know whether I'm happy by Mormon standards. I don't know. But, but I've had, I've had a, if I'd had, if I'd had this life and in addition gone to church and, and done what they said at church, I, I, I could have been a good Mormon, I think, I mean, I don't think there's any, there's anything that I. Two things. One, I don't believe it. And two, I don't want to go to church that much. I don't want to. I want to drink beer. I don't want to. I don't, I don't want to. I don't want to live like Mormons live in the whole thing.

John Dehlin [04:15:56] And if somebody says, well, why not cheat on your spouse, why not become a drug addict, why not, you know,

Rod Decker [04:16:02] visit sex workers, There are various reason answers for each of those, but I don't know that. I don't think, I think almost nobody believes that there isn't a good reason not to steal. Even, even if you're not if you

John Dehlin [04:16:20] don't go to church, it shouldn't be killing or.

Rod Decker [04:16:23] Yeah. Or, or most of the things you mentioned. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:16:29] You don't need religion to make those conclusions. You're saying to be a healthy habit, to be a moral.

Rod Decker [04:16:34] Well, okay, I, now I, I don't know. In my, in my own case, I tried. I tried to be moral and occasionally succeeded. And, and, but I think in my own case it may have been a kind of ghost Mormonism within me. That may have been part of your upbringing.

John Dehlin [04:16:57] Your upbringing.

Rod Decker [04:16:59] Yeah, yeah. But well, and, and, and still as a sort of. As I say, I think of, of giving an account at the end and that's a little Last judgment. Ish. But. Or that's a little like the Mormons afterwards. You have to give an account. I, I sort of think of giving an account. I just leave the God part out. That may be there. There are serious people who say over time, if you, you can't have Christian morale, you can't. Nietzsche is famous for you. The morality. Western morality is Christian morality. And Western morality can't go on without the Christian morality. Can't go on without the, the, without the Christian God. I don't know. It hasn't broken down so far. Maybe there's a kind of ghost Mormonism still in me that. I don't know. That. That, that's a, I think, a serious possibility. But other than that, it seems to be that you can make a moral decision without believing in God.

John Dehlin [04:18:11] So what's it based on?

Rod Decker [04:18:14] You try to do what's right. Try to live a good life. Try to do what's right. I got so much time. I'll do the best with it I can. That's too cheerful. I got so much time, I won't waste it all. I'll only waste part.

John Dehlin [04:18:32] But you're also going to say and try to do what's right.

Rod Decker [04:18:35] Yeah, yeah. Try to do what's right.

John Dehlin [04:18:37] Just for goodness sake.

Rod Decker [04:18:39] Yeah. Just. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:18:41] No angels, no judgment.

Rod Decker [04:18:42] No, no, I don't believe that. I think probably it's pragmatically best. I think that you get along better in life statistically if you try to do what's right. I think, I think telling the truth pays off over time more than lying. Not in each individual case, but over time. I think. Tay. I think, I think it. If you see the results, I think you're better off trying to tell the truth. I think you're better off trying to be honest about property and stuff. I think you want it. One thing you ought to Want to make your wife and kids happy, if you can. Ought to be something that you want to do. Okay.

John Dehlin [04:19:37] Same with kindness. You should want to be kind.

Rod Decker [04:19:41] Well, you don't want to go overboard, but you want to be. You will. Yeah. Yeah. You want to be. You want to try to be a good person. It seems to me.

John Dehlin [04:20:00] I love it. Well, Rod Decker, one of my. One of the reasons I think I'm one of the luckiest people in the world, and I don't really think that, but I do feel fortunate is that I love talking to interesting people, and I just got to spend, I don't know, four or five hours talking to somebody.

Rod Decker [04:20:17] Have we gone four hours?

John Dehlin [04:20:18] That I respect. I think we've gone at least four, and I.

Rod Decker [04:20:22] It seemed like a long time.

John Dehlin [04:20:25] Well, for me, we're just getting going. No, no, we're. We're going to end now. But I just want to say I really enjoyed our time together. I'm really grateful you would come. But. But also I want to say I'm really grateful for your career and your influence as a journalist in Utah. I think Utah was lucky to have you. I think you did an amazing job and had an amazing career, and you had a really positive influence. And I'm tickled that you're still alive and that you're alive so that I can interview you and that you would be willing to share your story with me, spend some time with me and with all. With all my listeners. And so on behalf of Mormons, ex Mormons, Utahns, never Utahns, I just want to say, on behalf of all of us, thank you, Rod Decker, for all the good things you've done.

Rod Decker [04:21:17] Those are nice things to say and thank you. I enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [04:21:20] Thanks for your books. Thank you for your career. Thanks for your example. Thanks for your stories. You're awesome.

Rod Decker [04:21:27] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:21:28] Keep it up. Don't get dementia by going soft. Don't go.

Rod Decker [04:21:33] You don't have a choice.

John Dehlin [04:21:36] Well, yeah, you can keep busy. So I want you to keep busy, Rod Decker.

Rod Decker [04:21:40] But, but that, that, that may do. It may not.

John Dehlin [04:21:43] That's true. But you at least got to try. So I may want to have you back to talk about some of these more specific issues, tell some of these stories.

Rod Decker [04:21:51] Whatever you say.

John Dehlin [04:21:52] You'll come back.

Rod Decker [04:21:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:21:54] All right. Any final things you want to say to our listeners?

Rod Decker [04:21:56] No, thanks. Thanks for. Thanks for watching.

John Dehlin [04:22:00] Yeah. How about. How about buy the books? Can we say that?

Rod Decker [04:22:03] Well, you. You buy the books if you want to. Can they see the books? Yeah. Okay. There are two books yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:22:09] So the books are.

Rod Decker [04:22:10] I don't know. The books are Utah Politics, the Elephant in the Room, My signature Books for Murder. I don't know whether you can find an environment for murder that's maybe out of print.

John Dehlin [04:22:20] Okay.

Rod Decker [04:22:21] But. But you can find Utah. Utah Politics, the Elephant in the Room.

John Dehlin [04:22:25] So shout out to Signature Books and buy it on Amazon or from the Signature Books website or wherever you buy books you get.

Rod Decker [04:22:33] I think Utah Politics made still be in some bookstores. I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:22:37] It's a great book and people will love it. So seriously, support great Mormon history and Mormon studies. Buy this book. Make Signature Books really happy. Make Rod Decker happy. Make me happy. Let's buy and support. Is this available electronically? Is there an electronic version?

Rod Decker [04:22:56] No, it isn't available electronically.

John Dehlin [04:22:58] And why isn't there an audio version of Signature Books? You would be a great narrator.

Rod Decker [04:23:02] Audio? That. That there's an audio version of that.

John Dehlin [04:23:05] Of. Of Utah Politics.

Rod Decker [04:23:07] Yeah. I don't know. It was done by the. By the state of Utah for the library for the deaf. Oh. And I don't know whether it's available. That's a. I'm going to ask about that. Maybe.

John Dehlin [04:23:19] Wait, an audiobook for the deaf? That doesn't make sense.

Rod Decker [04:23:22] Excuse me? For the blind.

John Dehlin [04:23:23] Oh, okay.

Rod Decker [04:23:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:23:24] No, no, no problem. I. I wasn't trying to catch you on that.

Rod Decker [04:23:26] I was just trying to think that I. I'm sorry. I've been. No, see, I told you. Maybe I'm going to get dementia or

John Dehlin [04:23:32] maybe I've kept you in this interview way too long. You are almost 80, right? All right, well, thanks again, Rod Decker. You're great. Stay in touch.

Rod Decker [04:23:41] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:23:42] All right, listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. We've loved having you. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com with your feedback. Please comment@mormonstories.org we really appreciate those who support us financially. We couldn't do this without. About your financial support. So thanks. If you support us. If you don't. Less than one out of a thousand of our listeners are actually donors or supporters. We lose donors every week, sometimes every day. And if we don't have people step up to replace them, then our revenue declines and we have to go away. So please become a monthly donor. If you enjoy this programming, you can go to mormorestories.org, click on the donate button. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, a hundred bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. We're. We're tax. We're a 501c3 nonprofit. We're transparent in our finances. Every dollar you pay goes towards keeping this podcast alive and supporting me and my family to allow us to do this. So please support us if you can. You can spread the word. You can support us by giving us positive reviews. And a huge thanks to Gerardo for the wonderful cinematography and lighting and camera stuff. And a huge thanks to Brooklyn Alden for doing all our editing and social media stuff. Couldn't do this without them. And our wonderful board of Clint Martin and Kerry Whitbeck. Couldn't do this without our wonderful board of directors. So thanks to everyone. Thanks to Signature Books. Thanks to Rod Decker. Stay in touch and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody.

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